NATIONAL ENERGY BOARD OFFICE NATIONAL DE L’ÉNERGIE
Hearing Order / Ordonnance d'audience GH-002-2018
NOVA Gas Transmission Ltd. Application for the West Path Delivery Project
NOVA Gas Transmission Ltd. Demande concernant le projet de livraison parcours ouest
VOLUME 4
Hearing held at L’audience tenue à
National Energy Board 517 Tenth Avenue SW Calgary, Alberta
October 19, 2018 Le 19 octobre 2018
International Reporting Inc. Ottawa, Ontario (613) 748-6043
© Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada 2018 © Sa Majesté du Chef du Canada 2018 as represented by the National Energy Board représentée par l’Office national de l’énergie
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Transcript GH-002-2018 HEARING ORDER/ORDONNANCE D’AUDIENCE GH-002-2018
IN THE MATTER OF NOVA Gas Transmission Ltd. Application for the West Path Delivery Project
HEARING LOCATION/LIEU DE L’AUDIENCE
Hearing held in Calgary, Alberta, Friday, October 19, 2018 Audience tenue à Calgary (Alberta), vendredi, le 19 octobre 2018
BOARD PANEL/COMITÉ D'AUDIENCE DE L'OFFICE
Roland George Chairman/Président
Ron Durelle Member/Membre
Carole Malo Member/Membre
Transcript GH-002-2018
APPEARANCES/COMPARUTIONS (i)
Applicant/Demandeur
NOVA Gas Transmission Ltd. - Mr. Sander Duncanson
Intervenors/Intervenants
Bearspaw First Nation (distinct Nation of Stoney Nakoda Nation) - Mr. Lee Carter, Counsel - Ms. Sara Louden, Counsel
Chiniki First Nation (distinct Nation of Stoney Nakoda Nation) - Mr. Lee Carter, Counsel - Ms. Sara Louden, Counsel
Piikani Nation - Mr. Ira Provost
Samson Cree Nation - Ms. Kyra Northwest
St. Peter’s Lutheran Church - Mr. Gavin S. Fitch, Q.C., Counsel
Wesley First Nation (distinct Nation of Stoney Nakoda Nation) - Mr. Lee Carter, Counsel - Ms. Sara Louden, Counsel
West Path Agricultural Producers Group (CAEPLA-WPAPG) - Mr. John D. Goudy, Counsel
National Energy Board/Office national de l’énergie - Ms. Marian Yuzda - Ms. Christine Beauchemin
Transcript GH-002-2018
TABLE OF CONTENTS/TABLE DES MATIÈRES (i)
Description Paragraph No./No. de paragraphe
Opening remarks by the Chairman 950
Stoney Nakoda Nation: Chiniki First Nation, Bearspaw First Nation, and Wesley First Nation Mr. William Snow Elder Larry Daniels Sr. Mr. Larry Daniels Jr. Elder Lenny Wesley Elder Henry Holloway Mr. Alvin Young Mr. Conal Labelle Elder Alice Kaquitts Mr. Chris Goodstoney Mr. Clint Hunter Ms. Shauna McGarvey
- Introduction by Mr. Carter 971 - Oral traditional evidence and statements 982
Transcript GH-002-2018
LIST OF EXHIBITS/LISTE DES PIÈCES
No. Description Paragraph No./No. de paragraphe
Transcript GH-002-2018 Opening remarks Chairman --- Upon commencing at 9:18 a.m./L’audience débute à 9h18
950. THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, good morning, welcome back.
951. This is the last day of the oral portion of the hearing, but before we proceed, I've been informed that there will be an opening prayer.
952. MR. CARTER: That's correct. Mr. Holloway will be giving an opening prayer. And from what I understand, this will also act as an affirmation for the rest of the Elders testifying today.
953. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
954. ELDER HOLLOWAY: I would like to thank the Board members to ask First Nations to be part of this. I'm very honoured to be here to do the opening prayer.
--- (Opening Prayer/Prière d’ouverture)
WILLIAM SNOW: Affirmed LARRY DANIELS SR.: Affirmed LARRY DANIELS JR.: Affirmed LENNY WESLEY: Affirmed HENRY HOLLOWAY: Affirmed ALVIN YOUNG: Affirmed CONAL LABELLE: Affirmed ALICE KAQUITTS: Affirmed CHRIS GOODSTONEY: Affirmed CLINT HUNTER: Affirmed
955. THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Carter, I heard there was an opening statement. Do you want to do that before I continue with my opening statement, or is now the appropriate time?
956. MR. CARTER: Maybe we’ll wait until after your opening statement. I believe that will be more appropriate.
957. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your help.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Opening remarks Chairman 958. The Board wishes to acknowledge that we are located on Treaty 7 territory, near a traditional gathering place for diverse Indigenous peoples including the Blackfoot, Tsuut’ina, and Stoney Nakoda First Nations, as well as the Métis Nation whose relationship with this land continue to this day. It is with truth and respect we would like to acknowledge all the Indigenous ancestors of this place and reaffirm our relationship with one another.
959. Participants already in attendance should confirm and register their presence with Board staff if they have not already done so. Any general question can be brought to one of our process advisors at the registration desk located outside the hearing room. Lanyards are available for participants and members of the public who wish to observe.
960. If participants have any preliminary matters they wish to raise, they should bring it up with one of our Process Advisors, who will be at the registration desk. Preliminary matters, if any, will usually be handled at the beginning of the session.
961. Before we begin, I will cover a few safety and housekeeping matters. In the event that we hear a building evacuation tone, please exit the hearing room using the entrance that you came in. Once in the hallway, there are two evacuation stairwells. The first is at the end of the hallway to the right of the hearing room entrance doors, and a second stairwell is in the elevator lobby.
962. Please remain calm and exit the building in an orderly fashion. Once outside the building, please take a roll call of your individual groups to make sure that everyone has evacuated. If someone is not accounted for, draw it to the attention of a warden outside the building. Then, please proceed to Central Memorial Park, which is two blocks south of this building at the southeast corner of 12th Avenue and 4th Street South West. It is on the east side of 4th Street, across the street from the Sheldon Chumir Centre. And if this happens, you don't k now -- you don't need to know exactly where it is; there will be a whole bunch of people heading in that direction.
963. Also, for security reasons, please do not leave bags or personal belongings unattended in the hearing room. If you have any concerns regarding safety, please speak to any Board staff member.
964. The men’s and ladies’ washrooms can be found through the elevator lobby turning left along the north hallway. There are signs posted by the elevator.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Opening remarks Chairman
965. Copies of the schedule are available at the back of the room.
966. Also, please speak slowly and clearly at all times. As well, speaking closer and directly into the microphone is better than further away.
967. Before we continue, are there any preliminary matters?
968. MR. CARTER: There are none.
969. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
970. Mr. Carter.
971. MR. CARTER: Good morning, Board members.
972. As you know, we represent the -- each of the Chiniki, Bearspaw and Wesley First Nations. For clarity, I’d like to note that even though after entering into Treaty Number 7, Canada allocated the same reserve lands to these three First Nations. Each of these First Nations have since then operated as its own distinct First Nation. For example, they still have their own Band membership and they still elect their own Chief and Council.
973. The three First Nations, as you may be aware, are collectively referred to as the Stoney Nakoda Nations. During testimony today, you may hear Elders refer to their specific First Nation or you may hear them refer to collectively all three as the “Stoney” or the “Stoney Nakoda Nations”.
974. I’d also note that the Stoney Nakoda Nations have an Aboriginal Rights Claim that is currently before the Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench.
975. And the Elders today, each from -- one from each of the three First Nations, will be speaking to how industrial development, national provincial parks, private lands, occupied Crown lands have cumulatively impacted their exercise of their Treaty rights and their Aboriginal rights within their traditional lands.
976. To give you -- to give the Board members kind of a brief outline of how we expect today to unfold, first, we expect to call Mr. William Snow who is
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation the Consultation Manager for the Stoney Tribal Administration, and he’s going to be speaking about the ongoing consultation with NGTL on the West Path Delivery Project, the water rights of the three First Nations, and some specific oil and gas incidents that have impacted some of the First Nations.
977. Next will be an Elder, Mr. Larry Daniels Sr. from the Bearspaw First Nation, and he’ll be speaking about the traditional practices in the Eden Valley area. Next, we expect to call Mr. Henry Holloway; he’s a Chiniki First Nation member, and he will be speaking about the traditional practices in and around the Cochrane area. And next, we expect to call Alice Kaquitts. She is a Wesley First Nation Elder, and she’ll be speaking about gathering in and around the Turner Valley area.
978. We expect that will take us right up to lunch and after lunch, we will have Shauna McGarvey. She is a consultant with Aboriginal Services for MNP, and she is going to be speaking on the intervenor reports that were submitted on behalf of each of the three First Nations.
979. After Ms. McGarvey speaks, there are some varying -- at various times, some oil and gas representatives who have acted as liaisons for each of the three First Nations and they are going to be speaking about their work with oil and gas companies and their experience working in the industry.
980. And if there are no further questions from the Board Members, we'll call our first witness.
981. THE CHAIRMAN: Please proceed.
--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR STONEY NAKODA NATION:
982. MR. CARTER: So the first witness is Mr. William Snow. And as I said, he's the Consultation Manager and he'll be speaking to the ongoing consultation so far with NGTL.
983. MR. SNOW: (Speaking in Native language). Good morning, Board Members, ladies and gentlemen, Stoney Nakoda Nation members. It's good to be here.
984. And I am -- my name is William Snow and I'm the Consultation
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation Manager over Stoney Nakoda Nation.
985. I've been in this role since 2012 and I have been also working formally in this role as consultation, but I've also done a number of projects with educational institutions. I'm an advisor with the University of Alberta on their Canadian Mountain Networks Initiative and I am also an advisor to the Chiniki Lecture for the University of Calgary. And I have been working in various capacities on behalf of the Stoney Nakoda Nation doing cultural awareness for many types of different groups, industry and government.
986. So I wanted to cover a few items for the presentation today and I wanted to cover some general items and more specific. So as Lee has mentioned, there are three bands within Stoney Nakoda Nation: the Bearspaw, Chiniki, and Wesley. And we are mainly situated on four reserves: Stoney Indian Reserve at Morley, the Eden Valley Reserve west of Longview, and the Rabbit Lake Indian Reserve northwest of Morley, and the Big Horn Indian Reserve which is west of Nordegg, Alberta.
987. So collectively, within all of those reserves, reside Stoney Nakoda Nation members.
988. The TransCanada West Path Project will impact the Stoney Nakoda people in a number of ways and my comments today will focus on health and safety, water, cultural assessments, and the consultation process.
989. With regards to health and safety, there were two incidents that occurred in 2009 and 2010. These incidents involved releases of natural gas and H2S that originated off reserve, but impacted on reserve Stoney Nakoda Nation members. As I mentioned, one of the incidents involved H2S and the other involved the natural gas odorant recapped.
990. The Stoney Nakoda Nation requested capacity and resources from the Alberta government to address the health and safety issues; however, there are still community needs around capacity and resources today.
991. I would also like to note that these two gas incidents occurred after the completion of a 2006 public safety and sour gas report that looked at H2S-related health and safety issues in Alberta, and that report was completed under the Energy Resources Conservation Board.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation 992. With regards to water, the Stoney Nakoda Nation have not surrendered or ceded the use of waters originating and flowing in the Stoney Nakoda traditional territory, including the bed and banks of those waters, since time immemorial. The Stoney Nakoda have enjoyed continuous use of water in the traditional lands to facilitate hunting, fishing, trapping, as well as camping, gathering, and cultural and spiritual activities.
993. Canada entered an agreement and passed legislation to transfer natural resources to Alberta. This Natural Resources Transfer Agreement was ratified by the Imperial Parliament and became part of the Constitution Act, 1930. In 1938 to 1945, amendments were not so ratified. All Crown lands, mines, and minerals is subject to any trusts and to any other -- any interests other than that of the Crown. This includes Stoney Nakoda Nation, Aboriginal, and Treaty rights to water.
994. When Alberta was created, the interest of the waters within the province under the Northwest Irrigation Act 1898 remained the responsibility of Canada Alberta Act, section 21, 1905. Aboriginal and Treaty rights to water were unaddressed.
995. Three hydroelectric dams -- the Horseshoe, Kananaskis, and Ghost -- are located on or partially on the Stoney lands of the reserve lands of the Stoney Nakoda Nation. The Stoney Nakoda have on-reserve and off-reserve rights to waters, water powers, and beds in their traditional territory which arise pursuant to Stoney Nakoda Nation’s unextinguished Aboriginal title and existing Aboriginal and Treaty rights. These rights are constitutionally protected.
996. If the NRTA was capable of transferring water rights to Alberta, then in the 1945 NRTA amendment, the existence of a Crown right is distinct from the water rights purported to have passed to Alberta. As Alberta's claim to ownership of the water stems from the interest granted to it through the NRTA, this claim to ownership is entirely inapplicable to the Crown right retained in the 1945 NRTA amendment.
997. So our rights to water, our stem or our -- are pre-existing the Province of Alberta. And because of the amendments that recognize those water rights, we believe that they are being impacted by the project through the application of the hydro, the directional drill that is being proposed underneath the Bow River.
998. I would also like to talk about the importance of cultural assessments. We have been doing many cultural assessments for many industrial projects
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation within our traditional territory, and the reason why we do cultural assessments is so that we can rule out certain cultural resources and gravesites within a particular project area.
999. With regard to gravesites, it’s very important to understand that gravesites may be within Crown lands and private lands. One example of gravesites within private lands is the Sharphead Reburial Project.
1000. In 1966 there was a project area south of the Town of Ponoka where the former Sharphead Reserve was situated. And there was a process undergoing where there was a proponent that was decommissioning an electrical line. When that electrical line was going through the process of having their electrical poles removed from the ground, human remains were unearthed in that process and through the ongoing project, 26 different human remains were unearthed and eventually taken to the University of Alberta and the City of Edmonton facilities.
1001. These kinds of projects are what we hope to avoid and this is why we -- when we have large projects in our traditional lands we very much want to do cultural assessments before these projects take place.
1002. For the Sharphead Reburial Project that started in 1966, we were not resolved until 2014 when we had a group of 15 First Nations, collectively, that worked on this project with the proponent and we had to go through many years of understanding all the issues around how to handle a massive reburial project.
1003. So as I said, it was not until 2014 that a special plot of Crown land west of Ponoka was set aside for a reburial ceremony, and that included Stoney and Cree ceremonial leaders and we did all of this reburial according to our cultural protocols.
1004. Closer to the Calgary area, prior to 2000, the Stoney Nakoda took part in a reburial for the Dunbow Residential School. Gravesites were becoming exposed in the Dunbow Residential School area and at the fork of the Highwood and Bow Rivers, south of the City of Calgary.
1005. Stoney Nakoda assisted with the relocation and reburial of the grave -- of the children’s graves that had attended these residential -- this residential school.
1006. So there's instances where we do have burial sites in known areas and
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation in areas like the Sharphead experience with the proponent near the Town of Ponoka.
1007. And, again, that’s the importance of doing these cultural assessments because we talk to our Elders, we look at all of our own records, and this is the importance of doing these types of assessments before these large industrial projects take place.
1008. For the consultation process, the West Path Project has not properly consulted on Stoney Nakoda environmental, cultural, water, wildlife, hunting, fishing, trapping concerns within the project area. Consultation with NGTL was limited. Stoney Nakoda Nation met with NGTL on a few occasions and could not come to an understanding on how to identify potential impacts to Stoney Nakoda Nation rights. Capacity offered by NGTL was insufficient to address these many concerns.
1009. And I would also point out that there is a concurrent consultation process under Alberta’s Public Lands Act for the Burton Creek Compressor Station Unit alternate location. Despite multiple requests, NGTL did not provide shapefiles for the Burton Creek Compressor Station Unit preferred location.
1010. So in closing, I would just note that Stoney Nakoda Nation has been one of the largest gas producers in Alberta for many years, since the 1970s. And we have known the risks and benefits of oil and gas, natural gas development and so we -- when we talk about all of our concerns, we talk from a lot of different experiences and so -- but we still look forward to working with the Proponent, then with regulators, on the project.
1011. Ish nish. Thank you.
1012. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
--- (A short pause/Courte pause)
1013. MEMBER DURELLE: Just one clarification question, if I may.
1014. Could you clarify whether the shapefiles that you’ve referred to that were requested from NGTL that you did not receive, were they for the alternate location or the proposed, the preferred location?
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation 1015. MR. SNOW: The preferred location.
1016. MEMBER MALO: Is it also possible to clarify when the actual consultation took place; before or after the application or over what period of time?
1017. MR. SNOW: I can’t recall the exact date but we were notified. We can get you the exact date.
1018. MEMBER MALO: The exact date. Just on this specific project, when do you recall having consultations with NGTL?
1019. MR. SNOW: My first recollection is about 2017. But given our vast traditional territory, we have many, many projects that we are handling or trying to handle.
1020. THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Carter?
1021. MR. CARTER: If there are no further questions, I’d like to request a short break, possibility five minutes, just to meet with some of the witnesses -- or some of the Elders before they testify.
1022. THE CHAIRMAN: Certainly. Well, let’s make it 10 minutes and we’ll be back at five to 10:00.
1023. MR. CARTER: Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 9:47 a.m./L’audience est suspendue à 09h47 --- Upon resuming at 10:08 a.m./L’audience est reprise à 10h08
WILLIAM SNOW: Resumed LARRY DANIELS SR.: Resumed LARRY DANIELS JR.: Resumed LENNY WESLEY: Resumed HENRY HOLLOWAY: Resumed ALVIN YOUNG: Resumed CONAL LABELLE: Resumed ALICE KAQUITTS: Resumed CHRIS GOODSTONEY: Resumed CLINT HUNTER: Resumed
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR STONEY NAKODA NATION: (Continued/Suite)
1024. THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Carter?
1025. MR. CARTER: Thank you, Board Members.
1026. Next will be Mr. Larry Daniels, Sr. He is an Elder with the Bearspaw First Nation. Mr. Daniels -- English is his second language. He is going to try to provide all of his testimony in English today. His son, Larry Daniels, Jr., is here to assist Mr. Daniels with any interpretations or translations into English that he may require during his testimony.
1027. ELDER LARRY DANIELS SR.: (Speaking in Native language),
1028. I was saying good morning. My name is Baby Back Bear. English is Larry Daniels. I'm a 67-year-old. I'm from Eden Valley, and I have a problem with my English speaking. I'm sorry about that.
1029. I'm going to get my son to interpret for me.
1030. Okay. I was told I was going to talk about Porcupine Hills, the compressor station there.
1031. MR. DANIELS JR.: That's our traditional -- what he said was that's our traditional hunting camping area since time immemorial. Like it's been in our family -- it's a family hunting camp. That's where we usually go yearly after -- ever since I can remember I've been going there. Ever since he can remember he goes there. Ever since my grandfather and his grandfather, so I guess it's time immemorial we used that area just right beside that compressor station on the east side that -- on the east side of the highway was a hunting camp area.
1032. Like, the development that pretty much devastated us in that area. Nowadays we can't go camp there any more.
1033. And there's one burial site there. It's a little infant burial site there. And some of us young people, we need to know where it is, and the Elder here wants to identify that area whereabouts is it. I think it's close to that compressor station area.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
1034. We don't use this camp any more. The reason is the smell of the gas that's been released in that area once in a while, or it might be a leak or something. And that's why we don't use that camp area any more. And now we can't go harvest or practise our traditional -- we can't even teach our kids now how to survive in that area.
1035. And plus, where we used to camp, now we have a gas plant there. And we don't use it any more. Plus, in that area our harvesting practices medicinal, berry picking -- we have -- we grew to fear of our practices of harvesting in that area. The reasons is 'cause of the -- we don’t know what's leaking out there in that area that he's talking about, that plant area, because around there they used to pick a lot of herbs, medicinal plants, but we don't practise any more.
1036. Oh, sorry about that. Plus, when we smoke our meat, when we make our dry meat, I guess we put them in racks, but now we have fear to dry our meat because of the compressor station close by of contaminating our meats.
1037. The little creek there, it used to be pure, but now it kind of smells like sulphur in that area, so we don't drink that water anymore. And I'll pass…
1038. The reason we don't use that area is because of the water and the smell. We have to move our camp from that area, but our heart is still in that area because, like I said, it’s been -- it’s our family camp, it’s been passed on to generation to generation, but my generation we can't go there anymore. And plus there's a little burial site in that area and it breaks my heart. What are we going to teach our young kids, our youths that are upcoming? How are we going to teach our tradition, our culture for the future?
1039. We tried -- actually we tried a different camp, but our harvesting area was in that area. The new camp that we tried didn’t work out because the medicines that my Elders here harvest, we can't find it anywhere else except in that area.
1040. In that area -- we love that area because of the landscape and the harvesting purposes and spiritual purposes, because our heart is there in that area.
1041. This thing, I bring it more.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation 1042. MR. CARTER: A little bit more?
1043. MR. DANIELS JR.: Just a small piece.
1044. MR. CARTER: No, that's okay.
1045. Mr. Daniels, could you please now speak to the importance of the Porcupine Hills area and the practices that are undertaken there?
1046. MR. DANIELS JR.: (Speaking in Native language)
1047. Porcupine Hills is a spiritual area, a harvesting area, the whole area of Porcupine Hills. We practise our tradition, our spirituality are in that area, like sweats. Back in 1800s I think they had a Sun Dance there in that area.
1048. And plus, the way my father says, that's our refrigerator, our medicine cabinet. We go harvest pretty much everything in that area, berries, animals, birds that fly, grouse, turkey. We pretty much harvest everything in that area, different types of berries, roots, medicinal plants.
1049. The names we use for Porcupine Hills, on the north side we call it (Native word), which means White Pine Corner. On the south side we call it (Native word), the closest one I can go is Porcupine Hills, I think that's the words for it. I guess the word for (Native word) is Porcupine Hill, that's what we call it in Stoney.
1050. The one at the compressor station was -- we used to call it Black Trout Creek, but now we call it The Sulfur Creek. And the other creeks in that area we have names for them, and I don't know how much they want us to share on it.
1051. And the reason we don't go camp there - we had a incident actually. We use to have a lot of teepee posts. When we finished our harvesting, we used to line it up in trees, but we had a incident one time before the drill gas plant there. They piled our teepee posts in one big pile and they burned it, they burned all of our teepee posts. The worst part was somebody -- I don't want to say it, but somebody took a crap on it when they burned it and then they put -- they relieved themselves there. What are they trying to say to us? We can't go there anymore?
1052. Like to our knowledge, especially my family knowledge, we don't know who gave them permission to drill that area. It was unexpected or
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation somebody, I don't know, one of the other families might have given permission or, I don't know. But we had no idea. And they start drilling the next year when we had that incident.
1053. And you know, our territories are getting smaller and smaller. Where are we going to teach our young?
1054. In this area, it's a pretty big area. I was looking at this map here. We love our land. These areas, we know all the ranchers, but today I don't think we know the ranchers now. We don't know who they are any more.
1055. Back in eighties, late eighties, we used to know them. We know who owns what ranch. We know who owns what farm. But nowadays, that communication and that respect we had with those ranchers, they used to come to our camp. They used to come and visit us. They used to appreciate us when we practised our tradition and our culture.
1056. That's about it, he said.
1057. MR. CARTER: Mr. Daniels, could you please speak now to the cell phone coverage in the Eden Valley area and the emergency procedures in place just in case there is, for example, a gas leak in or around Eden Valley?
1058. ELDER LARRY DANIELS SR.: (Speaking in Native language)
1059. MR. DANIELS JR.: There is no emergency plan in place for Eden Valley area, and the cell phone coverage, we don't even have a cell phone coverage in that area. You won't get any signal. We call it the dead zone because you won't get any cell phone service over there.
1060. And there's no emergency response plan or alarms in that area, but we know they burned off natural gas late at night.
1061. The people -- a lot of our people, they have a lot of fear of that. And you know, nowadays there's different types of cancers that are out there. They fear of that gas fumes, I guess.
1062. Like, they haven't burned -- like they usually burn it off, but they haven't done that for a couple of years now, to our knowledge. We haven't see -- because we usually see it at night when they burn it off, but we don't, especially in
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation the Eden Valley area. He's wondering why they haven't done that.
1063. The only thing that, to our knowledge, we were just told to go to the school if there's an emergency, but how are we going to know if there's an emergency because we don't have any alarms or what do you call detectors or alarms in that area.
1064. He said thank you for listening to him.
1065. MR. CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Daniels. Please answer any questions that the Board Members may have.
1066. THE CHAIRMAN: Just one moment, please.
--- (A short pause/Courte pause)
1067. MEMBER MALO: Excuse me. I was just wondering if you would be able to identify the particular site that you have been -- that we've been discussing this morning on the map.
1068. MR. DANIELS JR.: It's the Burton ---
1069. MEMBER MALO: Burton Creek?
1070. MR. DANIELS JR.: Yeah, that Burton. It's that gas plant in Burton Creek area there. That's the one we're talking about. Just right across, that's where our hunting camp is. The gas plant is on the south side. The creek, the Burton Creek is on the north side just right beside, just right below the gas plant there.
1071. MEMBER MALO: Thank you.
1072. THE CHAIRMAN: We would like to thank Mr. Larry Daniels Sr. and Larry Daniels Jr. for being here today. Thank you very much.
1073. MR. DANIELS JR.: Thank you.
1074. ELDER LARRY DANIELS SR.: (Speaking in Native language). Thank you.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation 1075. THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Carter, is this a good time to take another short break or simply continue?
1076. MR. CARTER: If the Board doesn’t mind taking a short break, that would be appreciated.
1077. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So we'll come back here at 10 to 11:00. Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 10:39 a.m./L’audience est suspendue à 10h39 --- Upon resuming at 10:55 p.m./L’audience est reprise à 10h55
WILLIAM SNOW: Resumed LARRY DANIELS SR.: Resumed LARRY DANIELS JR.: Resumed LENNY WESLEY: Resumed HENRY HOLLOWAY: Resumed ALVIN YOUNG: Resumed CONAL LABELLE: Resumed ALICE KAQUITTS: Resumed CHRIS GOODSTONEY: Resumed CLINT HUNTER: Resumed
--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR STONEY NAKODA NATION: (Continued/Suite)
1078. THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Carter.
1079. MR. CARTER: Henry Holloway will be speaking next. He is an Elder from the Chiniki First Nation, and Conal Labelle is here to help him if he needs any assistance translating words from Stoney into English.
1080. Mr. Holloway, could you please start by introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about yourself?
1081. ELDER HOLLOWAY: Yes. Thank you, Lee. And I would like to thank the Board of Directors for giving us the opportunity to be part of this changes of gas line.
1082. My name is Henry Holloway from the Stoney Nakoda First Nations.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation My real name from my great-grandfather, he gave me the name of his father. They call him (Native word) which means White Heaven. And that's what my grandpa gave me that name when I was four years old. And my mom used to call me (Native word). I remember as a little boy growing up.
1083. But I grew up in Morley. I'm 77 years old and I've been on the council for 10 years, 2 years as chief and 8 years as councillor. And I grew up and had my education through the residential school system. When I was six years old, I was taken from my family and sent in the residential school. And I grew up through the residential school and I went there for 9 years, til I was 16 years old. And I've lost a lot of my traditions and a lot of my culture while I was in the residential school.
1084. But I got through and I grew up in Morley and through my various educations, I served on different board of directors on the reserve and I am still part of the Treaty 7 Elders' Education School Board here in Calgary. I attend -- we attend that once every three months and I'm still a board member.
1085. And I grew up -- when I grew up to be 17 years old, I had the opportunity of travelling with Chief Walking Buffalo, which was sponsored -- a group of him and late Chief David Crowchild. His family and I and several other White people that assist us, we went a trip around the world. We travelled from Vancouver to Hawaii to Fiji Islands, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Central Africa, Cairo in Egypt, and then we flew to Rome, Italy; Geneva, Switzerland.
1086. From Switzerland we went to Germany and we got back to in Geneva and then we flew from there to Iceland, to New York, back to Ottawa. We were welcomed home by the late Prime Minister Diefenbaker. And then after that we flew home to Calgary. The trip lasted four months. And Walking Buffalo was 90 years old the time I travelled with him. And that's one of my greatest experiences I've had in my life and I just wanted to share that with you.
1087. The most memorable -- always had less when were in Uganda and the northern part is the equator, and we took a trip to the equator and I stood there and my friend there, I told him to take a picture of me while I am standing on both continents. I stood right on the equator and I had one of my feet on the northern hemisphere and the other one on the southern hemisphere. So I stood on both hemispheres at the same time. And that was exciting and I was just 17 years old. And I always remember that.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
1088. I would like to start my presentation.
1089. This town of Cochrane, we called it (Native word). Before the town was even established, our people, the Stoney Nakoda people, have always come there to camp where the town is. Sometimes they camped there to harvest fruit, buffalo meat, and stuff like that towards Drumheller and in the eastern part of Calgary through Strathmore and all those areas. And where the camp is located on top of the Cochrane Hill was kind of a lookout stand for the Stoney people. They used to have some braves go up there and watch. They can see for miles who's coming and who's around there. So that's a very sacred traditional land in Cochrane where our people come to set up the camp.
1090. And through that valley where we call it ((Native word), that means Deep Bank, it's kind of a canyon, and on the north end of that, my grandfather used to -- there used to be a buffalo jump there. It was corralled around it and they had the buffalo come in there, fall in that corral, and that's where they killed the buffalo. And that's the way my grandfather had told me about that.
1091. And today, as I grew up, I've seen Cochrane grow in the last 70 years. I remember Cochrane one time as the -- where there were about six or seven houses there and three or four businesses. There was a service station garage there and a grocery store, a drugstore, a restaurant, and a blacksmith shop, and the Cochrane Hotel. That's the only buildings I've seen there other than some five or six residential houses that were around there.
1092. So we used to ride around in the cart from Morley from the Stoney Reserve, and we used to tie our horses on the railroad track fence there and walk across there, the railroad track, and go do our shopping in Cochrane. At that time, everybody knew everybody and all the -- I used to see Elders sit on the benches outside the grocery store with some White people and discuss stories. And now they'd be a great moment for our Elders to go in Cochrane.
1093. But I've seen it go now to be 30,000 people living there. It has expanded so fast. But the -- the only regret I ever -- I used to have, we should have got involved in the development of Cochrane because of that sacred territory that our people shared.
1094. Right in the middle of Cochrane where now it's a Walmart, there used to be a race track there. And our people had a gymkhana, what they called.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation That's the definition from the White people. We used to bring our race horses there, and all the ranchers around there will meet there and have a competition of horse racing, who has the best, fastest thoroughbred.
1095. And that's -- that's quite an event to see. And I remember the late Chief Jake Two Youngman and late Johnny Bearspaw and late -- my father-in- law was Chief Isaac Two Youngman. Those three people used to have thoroughbred horses, and other Band members used -- you'll see about 30 -- 25, 30 horses brought in from Morley and all the surrounding farmers and ranchers, they'll bring their horses. And they challenge who has the fastest horse for a quarter of a mile, half a mile and the mile race, and then they used to have a relay race. And it was quite an event there to see.
1096. This event, it used to be done on the Victoria Day, on May 21st, and everybody used to look forward to going to that event. And I remember the best -- the racehorses came from Morley. I don't know why, but out of the events there that they have, Morley used to win the half mile and the mile race.
1097. And I remember when I was 16 years old my grandfather, Jake Two Youngman, had a thoroughbred horse. And he asked me if I can ride him.
1098. When I was 17 and 18 -- up to 18, I used to be a jockey in the Alberta B circuit. I only weighed about 110 pounds, 115 pounds. And one of the ranchers around High River came to Morley and asked me -- because he knew Jake Two Youngman. And they said, "He's a good rider. And I -- he -- I used to use him for jockey".
1099. And I went out to High River and rode this guy's quarter horse that was in the race track, and I jockeyed for him for one summer throughout western -- I mean southern Alberta.
1100. And this is where I got my experience. And during the time at that race track, my grandfather, Chief Isaac -- I mean Jake Two Youngman told me to ride his horse. We are having a challenge here. There's two of the ranchers are betting, at that time, $100 apiece. That was a lot of money that time. We used to buy pop for five cents and potato chips at five cents.
1101. And all -- there's two ranchers challenged two of the best racehorses from Morley, $100 each. The pot was for 400 bucks.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation 1102. And I -- and my grandpa told me, "You're going to ride my horse". This is a one-mile race. The track used to be a half a mile track. You go around it twice. And I said okay.
1103. And we got ready, and we went in there and the -- at that time, there wasn't any of these rigs that they have, a starting gate. We just ride up to the finish line and you see a gun go off and you take off.
1104. So we came down. There's two ranchers and then there's me and Isaac Two Youngman. He had another guy riding for him from Morley.
1105. So when we got to the starting gate and we took off, I took off first, so I set the pace. I was right along the railing. And in the second round, I can see this guy coming from behind me. He was catching up to me. And then I'm in the last final turn, I kind of squeeze him out, right out. And then when we got to the turn, I went back in and I was leading by two lengths.
1106. And he tried to -- he just about caught me, and then final turn he came in the inside, so I took the rail. And he went on the outside. By the time we went -- finished at the top of the stretch, so I just let my horse go, and I won it. And we won $400 and a big trophy for the best mile horse in and around Cochrane.
1107. And my -- I remember my -- Isaac -- I mean Jake Two Youngman came up to me and hand me $100. He says, "There's your fee". And I was really proud of that that time.
1108. Those events that used to happen in Cochrane, and now there's a Walmart there where the race track used to be. And there are a lot of memories around Cochrane, and a lot of our Elders go there, but through that valley there where it's called (Native word), it's a place where they can pick medicine, roots, different kinds, go through there and in around there.
1109. And I've always regret that there should have been some kind of an archaeology research in the Town of Cochrane. There's a lot of -- they could have find a lot of stuff there that dated back maybe 1,500 years or so. Yeah.
1110. And now, with probably over 25, 30 thousand people live there. And we have this gas going through there.
1111. Anything that we put underground is contaminated. Anything at all.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation Once you cover it up, the earth erodes anything. It's very -- you know, in our Native beliefs, our forefathers and grandfathers always tell us when you put something underground, make sure you'll turn back into the dirt. You don't put nothing like a steel or any kind of thing, material that won't rot, you know.
1112. It's scary to put in the ground because it will erode underneath. And that erosion spreads anywhere.
1113. And today, all projects regarding gas or oil or whatever, they always scientific research them. And we, First Nations people, know what’s going to happen once you put something beneath the earth. We know way before scientists can study the ground. We could have tell you -- told you without paying anything. But scientists and research have paid by the thousands and by the millions to do research programs, to do pipelines, to do any kind of a transmission line or building a hydro plant or anything like that.
1114. We already know what’s going to happen. But we’ve never been consulted; we’ve never been asked. We’ve never been given the opportunity to work with these scientists. Maybe we can teach those scientists a little bit more than what they know.
1115. This is the knowledge that we have, that were passed down to us. We don’t instantly know. It was passed down to us. Like the previous speaker -- speakers are saying, in immemorial, in time, our oral history have been passed down to us. And we know exactly what kind of effect that pipeline can do once we put it under the ground.
1116. The contamination that it can create -- I always hear pipelines here guaranteed not to leak or anything but the material that it’s made of, the pipe, even the pipes that are covered with a different kind of material that the researchers have said this will never erode; we’ll put this underground. And the material that contains -- that erodes underground spreads out. You take a pipe and you take that material, they cover it and put it underground, six feet under the ground and leave it there, and in 10 years you pick it out and all that cover’s going to be gone. It’s eaten away by the ground, the earth. That’s the way Mother Earth was -- designed the Earth. Anything that goes down there will disappear.
1117. And this is what we’re scared of with that pipeline going through the Town of Cochrane and under the Bow River. The Bow River, we call it Mini Thni; that’s a name that had it before the explorers came there and called it Bow
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation River. It’s called Mini Thni to us, which means Cold Water Running.
1118. And when that pipeline goes under that river, I don’t know how deep it’s going to be, maybe six, seven, eight feet, or twelve feet underneath the river, it still will affect it. Maybe not by the gas but erosion of whatever is covered by that -- by the pipeline. And that erosion under the river will run into the water. And the water runs down to Calgary. And that Bow River, to the Stoney Nakoda people, is part of us. And we have that water rights up the Bow River, that’s the Stoney Nakoda people. We still get from the Trans-Alta Hydro plants, the CB, and there’s one at Ghost Lake, Ghost River Hydro Plant.
1119. We still get interests out of it because that river belongs to the Stoney Nakoda people, and when we see it running down, it serves all the people that lives around the Bow River.
1120. Water is life. Without water, we will not live. Water is the bloodline of Mother Earth; we have to take care of it for the future generation.
1121. The way everything is progressing, I understand the economy that it will be bring to the people. But what we first have to think about is the future; what kind of water will they be drinking in 50 years time, the way it’s going?
1122. My grandfather used to say, “Water will be expensive. You will buy water.” That was 50 years ago he told me that. “You will buy your own drinking water someday, the way everything’s going.” And I just thought about it at the time.
1123. Now, we buy water. That’s the only thing we think it’s not contaminated. But who guarantees that this is not contaminated? We don’t even know where it came from. I can go back to Morley and the redirect part of the Bow River and start filling up bottles and sell it to the people; they wouldn’t even -- they never even touched to clean it.
1124. And you look at 50 years from now, what will our great-great grandchildren survive on if we don’t take care of it?
1125. When we were kids, our grandmothers and our grandpas, they used to tell us the water is very precious and valuable, and the Creator put it here for us to live on. They wouldn’t even allow us to urine in the water. Our grandpas and my grandmas used to tell us, “If you urine in the water, when you die, the Creator will
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation make you drink that water.” So as a boy you used to be afraid of that so we never urined in any kind of water anywhere at all. We could run to the bush where there’s absolutely no water.
1126. So this is a very delicate issue in Cochrane, how it can affect the Town of Cochrane. Probably the Town of Cochrane drinks the Bow River going into a reservoir and have it clean or whatever. So there’s thousands of people living there.
1127. And the effect that we have through the loss of our culture and our traditions in the Town of Cochrane, we -- I think we, as Stoney Nakoda people, have to be given the right to participate in any kind of changes. Or even if the pipe is being built, there’s the employment that can be considered to help the Stoney Nakoda people.
1128. And in around that river, there’s still some roots of -- that’s used for medicine, and those are things that we lost. In the town area, it’s no longer Crown land so we just can’t go there and start picking stuff like that in and around Cochrane. It’s altogether out of our limits. And that's a loss to the Stoney Nakoda people, you know. It’s gone.
1129. But it so happens that we cannot replace it, but we have to work with the industry to help us in any way possible to bring in probably an education program to the Stoney Nakoda people, for the young people to learn about working with different petroleums in Alberta. If the company can sponsor an education on training young people how to work with them, maybe in the future we can help save some of the contaminations that are happening throughout Alberta, not only in Cochrane, but in any other place.
1130. We can share our knowledge through the training of education to help the young people work with the industries. And they will understand what to do in different areas, who to consult in different areas. We need this cooperation to work with our First Nations people. Not only the Nakoda First Nations, but there are other First Nations in Treaty 7 and Treaty 6 that do have the knowledge in their own areas. That's what I'm -- that's why I'm saying why can't we train young people to work with these people? And invest some kind of training program to the education in the areas involved. I think it will serve a lot of purpose for it and a lot of advantage if we can start thinking and working together.
1131. It seems like that we’re only consulted on traditional land that has
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation already been contaminated. We are asked after everything is done, but as I stated, if we can work together we might make different situations the positive way, like saving the water and like knowing where to do the pipelines and everything.
1132. And I think Cochrane have been our neighbour that we depend on. Now, with all the different stores that are there, our people go there to go shopping. It makes it lots better for our people from Morley because it’s shorter, instead of coming to Calgary to a Walmart; it’s closer there and our reserve ends right at the town limits.
1133. And I think that the pipeline -- the main concern that I have, is going and putting the water under -- the pipe under the river. But other than that, I just wanted to share one last thing with you that sometimes I sit down with my friend there in Cochrane and have a chat about the past and the history. And his name is Warren Harbick; he used to work out in Morley and he’s an anthropologist and he knows our language. And sometimes we visit him and I have a coffee somewhere in Cochrane there and chat about history. And he talks pretty well Stoney -- our Stoney language, he’s pretty fluent with it. And he writes books about our people and he’s a good friend of mine. And we share a lot of past -- Elders that used to come there and talk about how Cochrane used to be so friendly and everybody knew everybody.
1134. And now Cochrane got so big that one time I spoke to some young people there in Cochrane and they were asking me questions. They were about 16 -- 15-16-year-old boys, they didn’t even know there was an Indian reserve right directly in front of the doorstep. They didn’t even know the Stoney Nakoda people existed right beside their community.
1135. We need to share more information with that town to know who we are, where we lived and how we lived. We need to get Cochrane to know us better. We need to understand that. And with the help of this petroleum company, maybe there can be some sort of program set up to do this.
1136. I'm very honoured to speak about what Cochrane means to us and what we can save and help the future generation. I’d like to thank the Board for having me here and listening to me. And I'm proud to be part of the Stoney Nakoda people. And I’d just like to end my presentation now.
1137. Thank you very much for having the patience to sit there and listen too. Thank you.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
1138. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for sharing all your knowledge with us. We appreciate it.
1139. Mr. Carter?
1140. MR. CARTER: If there's any questions from the Board?
--- (A short pause/Courte pause)
1141. THE CHAIRMAN: No, we don't have any questions. Thank you very much.
1142. ELDER HOLLOWAY: Thank you.
1143. MR. CARTER: If we may take another short break, that would be greatly appreciated.
1144. THE CHAIRMAN: Certainly. So after that break do you want to continue or do you want to break for lunch now or -- how do you want to organize this?
1145. MR. CARTER: We have one more Elder that we’re hoping to speak before the lunch break.
1146. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, so we’ll take a 10-minute break; we’ll come back here at 11:40.
1147. MR. CARTER: Thank you.
1148. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 11:32 a.m./L’audience est suspendue à 11h32 --- Upon resuming at 11:47 a.m./L’audience est reprise à 11h47
WILLIAM SNOW: Resumed LARRY DANIELS SR.: Resumed LARRY DANIELS JR.: Resumed LENNY WESLEY: Resumed HENRY HOLLOWAY: Resumed
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation ALVIN YOUNG: Resumed CONAL LABELLE: Resumed ALICE KAQUITTS: Resumed CHRIS GOODSTONEY: Resumed CLINT HUNTER: Resumed
--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR STONEY NAKODA NATION: (Continued/Suite)
1149. THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Carter?
1150. MR. CARTER: Alice Kaquitts will be testifying next. She is an Elder and a member of the Wesley First Nation. Chris Goodstoney, member of the Wesley First Nation, is here to assist Ms. Kaquitts in any translations. I believe Ms. Kaquitts is going to provide all of her testimony in Stoney, and then subsequently translate everything that she testified too earlier in English.
1151. ELDER KAQUITTS: (Speaking in Native language)
1152. Good day, everyone. My name is Alice Kaquitts. I am from the Wesley First Nations, Stoney Nakoda, (Native word) Nakoda. In our culture, when we're asked to introduce ourselves, protocol always dictates that you honour your ancestors first and you honour them by informing those that ask you what your name is by making reference to which clan, to which family you come from. So I will briefly share that.
1153. My great-grandfather's name was Chief Hector Crawler. Chief Hector Crawler had four daughters and one of the daughters was my grandmother. Her name was -- her given name, all of my grandmother's name at that time, the name Mary Jane was very popular by those that gave us these names so all of my grandmother's names were either Jane, Mary Jane, and so forth. So my mother's name, my grandmother's name was Mary Jane. My mother's name was Alice, so another popular name.
1154. On my father's side, my paternal father's side, my grandfather's name was Black Buffalo. My grandmother's name was Kokta (ph.), Mary Jane Simeon and my father's name was Thomas Simeon, and that's the family, the clan that I come from.
1155. Later on when my mother -- my mother lost her husbands, and I was
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation the youngest so I have a different father than my siblings. They're all alive today. My oldest is in her eighties. She's never spent a single day in school like us siblings did, so she is very traditional.
1156. I was later raised by Paul Wesley. Paul Wesley was my stepfather. Paul Wesley also -- Paul Wesley's grandfather was Howotha (ph), and the stories, the history of my people, my clans, the area, the knowledge that I share today comes from the names that I've mentioned that have been passed on.
1157. Our culture is an oral culture, and I want to share my stories, my history from that perspective. There's been many books written about who we are as Nakoda people, as Stoney. Every explorer or every missionary that came through our territory gave us a name that we've always known and called ourselves (Native word), making reference to the clarity and purity of our language, of our dialect, and how fluent we spoke in our language.
1158. I also spoke to how our society that I'm from is very structured, very organized. Highly organized and structured society and our traditional territories that we resided in. For this particular hearing, there's specific sites that have been mentioned that is in our traditional Nakoda territory, Iska territory.
1159. Growing up as a young child in that society, the Iska society, at a very young age we're taught that the environment that we're a part of is very sacred and that we should respect that environment. And that sacred connection to every being, and that every being has a spirit and that we respect that and honour that and humble ourselves as two-legged beings.
1160. The culture that I come from is holistic in nature and that everything in that world view is holistic and interconnected.
1161. As a young child, we had traditional parenting practices. The non- Native European society has all those child development theorists who wrote books. In our culture we had that, but it wasn't written. But they were sacred laws, traditional laws, sacred laws, spiritual laws, intellectual laws, philosophy. And we were all taught that growing up.
1162. As a young child, we had ceremonies, passage of rites ceremonies that guided our development. And it guided us.
1163. As a young child, we were taken to ceremonies, to sacred sites where
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation we were taught the importance, the sacred and importance of the particular ceremony that was held in a particular location. We were taught through story- telling the importance of moral values, respect, integrity, honour and service, and being of service to each other and to everything. And that sacred connection we had to the waters, the creeks, the animals, we were all taught that and we lived by those sacred laws.
1164. In our traditional societies, everything that evolved around ceremonies. Gathering was very sacred in traditional times, the rituals and practices. And one might think, you know, gathering is just going out on a Sunday drive. For us, it lies deeper than that. It connects us to the environment, that holistic sphere that I had mentioned.
1165. Gathering is sacred. Before we go out in traditional societies, warriors went out and staked a particular area where we would camp and also where berries, herbs, all those anti-oxidant medications like we needed in the spring were plentiful.
1166. Us women would go out there. We'd conduct ceremonies. And I say that gathering is more than that, goes deeper. That's where you're on the land, land-based learning. That's where you retain your language. That's where you know you speak your language. Seasonal languages are taught there. Seasonal herbs that grow there, medicinal herbs, medicinal plants. So language ties in to gathering.
1167. Very often, the selection of a leader is chosen there. Alliances, various forms of alliances that last a lifetime, that ensures unity is made there on the land gathering berries. Child rearing practices are shared there. Discipline, how to raise warriors, both men and women, how to respect your feminine/masculine beings is taught there in these areas that we call our traditional territory. We’re taught how to raise children.
1168. And I talk about the connection to our environment during those berry picking, you know, when we’re out there gathering we’re preparing for the upcoming winter ahead, for the upcoming fall ahead where we honour and hold feasts and feed everyone in our communities. A practice that we still carry today, you know, we feed each other, we honour our ancestors that have moved on to the next world. So gathering is very sacred.
1169. Hunting is also sacred, there's practices and protocols involved. And I
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation can go into detail, but for this particular hearing and out of respect for our women -- our men, my brothers that are here that are older, I’ve left that to them. As a woman I wanted to focus on gathering and also the medicinal herbs that were plentiful in the areas that you have mentioned. Well, that's traditional territory, that's traditional society that I shared, which is still alive today, but things have changed.
1170. You know, when we look at our culture we look through eras. Things change, history changes. And for us, eras, we see them as not years, but eras. The era that we made Treaty. (Speaking in Native language).
1171. And we’ve seen the changes that occurred after signing the Treaties, after contact. You know, our ancestors, our grandparents, our great-grandparents, once the settlers arrived thinking that our traditional territories were free land, free for all, guess who cleared all the areas? But it’s now known as personal property.
1172. Our great-grandfathers, our grandfathers, our fathers were the ones that developed relationship. They were the ones that assisted those ranchers, those farmers. They cleared the lands for them, they harvested their crops, they fed and rounded their cattle, they fed them, they doctored them. There's a lot of stories that my stepfather used to tell about doctoring these farmers that were often ill and couldn’t get to a doctor, so they relied on our grandparents to nurse them back to health or any other type of services that they needed. Our grandparents, our parents provided those services to those ranchers.
1173. And they did it out of love, sincerity, respect for one another, which plays an integral part in our culture. Our ancestors cleared these lands. Our ancestors built these fences not knowing what private property meant, not knowing that by fencing, by rescuing, by helping that they were eroding their Treaty rights, their rights to hunting, their rights to gathering. But they did it because they cared, because they were sincere; they believed in helping and contributing to society, which our Nation was built on.
1174. I look at the pride -- I would look at the pride and the smile on my stepfather’s face when we would journey to through Millarville, Black Diamond, all of them have names, and how he would claim that “You know, I fenced there, I cleared land there and I helped build a corral there, I branded cattle for that rancher,” and the pride that he had. Today, when I look back, I look back through sadness, but at that time he built those fences, he branded those cattle, he nursed that rancher to health, his children, not knowing that -- what the future had hold.
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1175. And that brings sadness to me when I look at private property, the violence that's occurring through the Indian country, Indigenous communities, the conflicts that are arising between ranchers and all our brothers and sisters whose traditional territory that they are on. And I feel scared and afraid for my grandchildren who are going to lose their hunting territory, my granddaughter who’s going to lose her language, her seasonal language, the lifestyle, that traditional lifestyle which is very important and the essence of who I am today. I am afraid that my grandson, who steps on private property, will get shot and that no one will help him. That's the fear I have.
1176. We go into these areas often to find balance within ourselves, to restore energy, positive energy, holistic energy, to doctor ourselves, to have that connection to everything, to carry out those teachings. When we are out there today, what do you think we hear? We hear noises, the oil wells coming, the recreational vehicles in the bush making trails, driving really fast without any disrespect while we're sitting there gathering berries and conducting our traditional way of life. That's our reality today and it's sad. And yet, we're still here.
1177. Consultation is necessary. And I say that because the energy sector is just eroding and slowly taking away our traditional way of life, our traditional lifestyle, our protocols, our practices. Our relatives get sick sometimes picking berries. They have ailments, cancer, all these illnesses. We are dying at a real high rate and that has to change. Our way of life needs to be respected and honour, talk about reconciliation. Reconciliation has to happen in every area, in every aspect of our lives, reconciling with the environment, which is very much a part of us as Nakoda people in the territories that are being utilized for these purposes.
1178. And I would also, with that -- I love my people. I worry about my grandchildren in the future to come. I worry about losing our culture, our language, our cultural practices let alone the social problems that we have to endure on a daily basis, the fear of our women disappearing. Those also are a concern.
1179. And I bring up these topics because my world view is holistic and everything is interconnected and everything has a spirit. These areas are sacred. They're our traditional territories. They have kept us alive for thousands and thousands of years.
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1180. So with that, I want to thank each and every one of you out there for listening. I humbly share the knowledge that was handed down to me orally and it's sacred to me, what I've shared, because those stories are so much alive and will continue to be alive. (Native word). Thank you.
1181. MR. CARTER: Thank you, Ms. Kaquitts. Please answer any questions that the Board Members may have.
1182. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for sharing. You were quite clear. We have no questions.
1183. ELDER KAQUITTS: (Native word).
1184. MR. CARTER: This will probably be an appropriate time to take a lunch break if the Board agrees.
1185. THE CHAIRMAN: We'll take a one-hour lunch break.
1186. MR. CARTER: Thank you.
1187. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 12:45 p.m./L’audience est suspendue à 12h45 --- Upon resuming at 1:49 p.m./L’audience est reprise à 13h49
WILLIAM SNOW: Resumed LARRY DANIELS SR.: Resumed LARRY DANIELS JR.: Resumed LENNY WESLEY: Resumed HENRY HOLLOWAY: Resumed ALVIN YOUNG: Resumed CONAL LABELLE: Resumed ALICE KAQUITTS: Resumed CHRIS GOODSTONEY: Resumed CLINT HUNTER: Resumed
1188. THE CHAIRMAN: Welcome back, everyone. Mr. Carter.
1189. MR. CARTER: Good afternoon. Shauna McGarvey, MNP, will now
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation be speaking to the three intervenor reports that were submitted on behalf of the three First Nations.
1190. THE CHAIRMAN: Madame Savoie.
SHAUNA McGARVEY: Affirmed
1191. MR. CARTER: You can start, Ms. McGarvey.
--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR STONEY NAKODA NATION: (Continued/Suite)
1192. MS. McGARVEY: Thank you, and good afternoon. As we noted, my name is Shauna McGarvey. I’m a manager with MNP and we are the consultants hired by Stoney Nakoda Consultation office to prepare evidence for this hearing.
1193. I have worked with MNP and Calliou Group, which merged into MNP since 2013. Prior to joining Calliou Group, I worked with Stoney Nakoda Nations on various research and regulatory related projects between 2005 and 2010. I am an anthropologist by training.
1194. I would like to thank the Board for permitting us to provide our oral traditional evidence and our oral statements back to back. Originally, we submitted three separate presentations in anticipating of presenting an oral statement on behalf of each of the Bearspaw First Nations, Chiniki First Nation and Wesley First Nation in three separate time slots on two different days. The presentations we submitted reflect this approach.
1195. However, in the interest of time and in the interest of not boring you by presenting the same information three times over, what I would like to do is provide our oral statement using the Bearspaw First Nation presentation as a guide. The information we have to present at the beginning of the presentation, including the purpose of the report, the contacts, the methodology and our results in relation to the availability of land, is the same for all three Nations.
1196. We have unique results for each Nation in the Land and Resource Use Section and in the Project Issues and Concern Sections. When I get to these sections, I will call up the information that is specific to the Nation. And when I’m finish presenting on the Land and Resource Use and the Issues and Concerns
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation information, I’ll return to our accommodation discussion and present our approach to accommodating impacts. If this is -- if the Board is okay with this approach, I would like to proceed.
1197. THE CHAIRMAN: That's fine.
1198. MS. McGARVEY: Okay. If I could have the first presentation. Thank you.
1199. All right. So, what I would like to do this afternoon is just go over with you briefly the purpose of our three intervenor reports. I'll then talk about the proximity of the Project, the West Path Project to the Bearspaw, Chiniki and Wesley First Nations. I want to talk specifically about Section 35 Rights in the context of this Project. I want to speak to our methodology, data collection and analysis process. I’ll then provide results, including the change and available lands. I'll talk about land and resource use as it pertains to each Nation and issues of concerns as they pertain to each Nation. And finally, I'll talk about accommodation and potential impacts.
1200. So we prepared the Bearspaw First Nation Intervenor Report, the Chiniki First Nation Intervenor Report and the Wesley First Nation Intervenor Report with four intentions in mind.
1201. The first is to provide information on how the Project may directly and adversely impact the ability of Bearspaw, Chiniki and Wesley First Nations to exercise their Section 35 Rights. We document the current exercise of Bearspaw, Chiniki and Wesley First Nations Section 35 Rights through the identification of land and resource use in the vicinity of the Project. We then provide a summary of issues and concerns in relation to the Project for each of the three Nations. And finally, we provide some suggestions for potential accommodation measures through the impacts to the exercise of Section 35 Rights.
1202. I’d like to note that what we mean by “Section 35 Rights” includes Aboriginal and Treaty Rights as recognized and affirmed by Section 35 of the Canadian Constitution. And when we speak specifically about Section 35 Rights in the context of this Project, we’re talking about the right to hunt, the right to fish, the right to trap, gather, conduct ceremonies and generally participate in Stoney culture.
1203. So, the proximity of the three Nations to the Project. So just a note,
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation we had to -- our maps are quite large, so in order to fit them onto one screen, we split them in half. And so we have the top sections, the Rocky View and the Turner Valley sections are portions of the West Path Project on the left hand side, and the Burton Creek Compressor Station section of the Project on the right hand side.
1204. As noted earlier by William Snow, the Stoney Nakoda Nations have six reserves, five of which are in the vicinity of the Project, and these include Morley, Rabbit Lake and Eden Valley. If you look at the top left side box and the top of that map, you can see the large blue circle. In that large blue circle is the Rocky View section of the pipeline, and adjacent to that is the Rabbit Lake Reserve. We heard Elder Holloway talk about the proximity of that reserve to Cochrane, and this is what he was referring to at that time. The Rabbit Lake Reserve is 1.2 kilometres from the Rocky View Section Project development area.
1205. If we move down to the south you can see the Turner Valley Compressor Station, the regional assessment area, that blue bubble. And we can see that the Eden Valley reserve is about 24 kilometres from the Turner Valley Compressor Station Project development area.
1206. Finally, at the bottom down there in Burton Creek, we can see that Burton Creek Compressor Station alternate location is 51.2 kilometres to the Eden Valley Reserve. The sixth Stoney Reserve is Big Horn reserve, and that's 175 kilometres from the Rocky View section.
1207. The blue circles are our regional assessment area, and inside those blue circles -- I don't have a little laser pointer, but if you look closely you can see the orange is the Project development area or the Project footprint. The Rocky View section, the two -- and then the two compressor station project development areas.
1208. I’ll talk a little bit more about how we determined the regional assessment area and the Project development area in the subsequent slide.
1209. So I just want to speak briefly about the Stoney Nakoda Section 35 Rights. So the Bearspaw First Nation, the Chiniki First Nation and the Wesley First Nation are the three unique Nations that form the Stoney Nakoda Nations. The Stoney Nakoda Nations hold collective rights recognized by Treaty 7 and the NRT of 1930 and affirmed and protected by Section 35 of the Constitution Act of 1982.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation 1210. The Stoney Nakoda Nations traditional territory extends from beyond the Brazeau River area in the north, south into Montana, east beyond the Cypress Hills of Saskatchewan and west into the British Columbia interior.
1211. THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, Ms. McGarvey, could you just slow down a bit to give a chance to our court reporter to get it all right.
1212. MS. McGARVEY: I thought I was going slow. Sorry. If that happens again, just give me another slow down.
1213. All right. So I’ll talk about methodology and I’ll slow this down even more.
1214. All right. So, we have two key steps in our data collection process. The first one, a series of workshops that we held in July -- on July 23rd and July 25th, 2018, the first in Morley and the second in Big Horn, to gather initial feedback on the exercise of Section 35 Rights in the vicinity of the Project. We had Nation members from all three nations present at each of those workshops. We also talked about Project issues and concerns at these workshops. We also identified key species of interest and value to Stoney Nakoda Nations to the three nations, and we talked about how Section 35 Rights connect to Stoney culture and the ability to pass and share on Stoney culture.
1215. After we completed the workshops, we developed a questionnaire that was based on the information we received at the workshops and we interviewed Nation members from all three of the Stoney Nakoda Nations. We interviewed 12 Bearspaw First Nation members, 13 Wesley First Nation members, and 9 Chiniki First Nation members.
1216. We asked specific questions in relation to the exercise of rights in the vicinity of the Project. We spoke about Project issues and concerns, and we mapped any land and resource use activity using maps of 1 to 500 scale. You can see a picture of that on the left-hand side of the mapping process.
1217. When we returned -- when our interviews were completed and we -- sorry, we conducted interviews in late -- sorry, early August throughout the month of August and into September. There was a lot of pressure to get all those interviews done in order to meet the filing deadlines for this particular Project.
1218. We entered those results into our survey platform, Survey Monkey.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation We transcribed specific parts of those interviews in relation to the Project and we digitized any land and resource use. By that we mean we took those large maps that we had in the field, we brought them back to our mapping expert, our GIS, Geographic Information System’s expert, and she was able to translate what was on those paper maps into digital copy that you’ll see later on in the presentation and in the report.
1219. We also identified lands available and unavailable for the exercise of Section 35 rights, and so we looked for lands using publicly available data. We identified lands that were occupied Crown's. These are Crown lands with authorizations, and lands that were private were identified as unavailable.
1220. All lands that lacked those kinds of authorizations are -- were considered unoccupied Crown lands and were identified as available. And I'll speak a little bit more about this in the next slide.
1221. We also identified our project footprint or project development area and our regional assessment area. Our project development area was based on the shapefiles provided by NGTL, and those were shapefiles for the Rocky View section, the Turner Valley compressor station, and the Burton Creek alternate location -- unit addition alternate location.
1222. We assessed the alternate location for two reasons. As you heard this morning, we did not receive the shapefile for the preferred location despite our requests. But the other reason was there is a strong indication in the additional written evidence that NGTL was moving towards considering the alternate location.
1223. In the additional written evidence submitted on July 19th, 2018, NGTL states, quote:
"The location for the applied-for Burton Creek Compressor Station is on partially disturbed land adjacent to the existing Burton Creek Compressor Station. As discussed in Section 7.8.1.2 of the Application, the lands required for the Burton Creek Compressor Station are subject to a Nature Conservancy of Canada conservation easement. The lands are also subject to the Environment and Climate Change Canada's Ecological Gifts Program." (As read)
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation 1224. In the opinion of the Federal Minister of the Environment, a change of use of the property by the Nature Conservancy of Canada -- sorry -- a change of use of the property by the Nature Conservancy of Canada and such a disposition or change of use is not authorized for the Environment and Climate Change Canada.
1225. Further, NGTL also reported in the additional written evidence that despite NGTL's attempt -- this is another quote:
"Despite NGTL's attempts to meet with NCC and ECC to reach a resolution, including repeated unsuccessful attempts to establish a meeting between all of NGTL, Environment and Climate Change Canada and the Nature Conservancy of Canada, NGTL has gained no further certainty that Environment and Climate Change Canada's authorization will be obtained should the acquisition of the land for the construction of the Burton Creek Compressor Station result in a disposition or change of use to that land -- of those lands." (As read)
1226. And I would note based on the comment made by Bill Snow earlier this morning that Stoney and NGTL are still involved in consultation on the alternate location through the Public Lands Act process in the Province of Alberta.
1227. So that was why we looked at the alternate location for the Burton Creek Compressor Station. When we identified the regional assessment areas, we used the traditional land and resource use valued component that NGTL used and identified in their project application. Then we used the 15 kilometres on centre of the shapefiles. We followed their methodology in identifying the regional assessment area for the traditional land and resource use VC.
1228. So this table here just kind of clarifies a little bit more what we're talking about when we're looking to identify lands that are available and unavailable for the exercise of Section 35 rights.
1229. So lands that are available for the exercise of Section 35 rights are unoccupied Crown lands, lands that do not have dispositions or Crown authorizations on them. These are lands like public land use zones like the Porcupine Hills public lands use zone where the Burton Creek Compressor
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation Station alternate location is located or the Kananaskis public land use zone which is in the regional assessment area for the Turner Valley Compressor Station.
1230. These are unoccupied Crown lands. They don't have any other uses on them for dispositions or parks or protected areas.
1231. Another kind of land that could be available through the exercise of Section 35 rights is occupied Crown, but occupied Crown where a statute or a common law allows for the activity related to a Section 35 right. And this is often something like a provincial park or a wildland park
1232. For example, Bob Creek Wildland Park, which is in the regional assessment area for the Burton Creek Compressor Station, allows for the ability to hunt. It is silent on the ability to gather and to create or raise ceremonial structures, so we do not consider the Bob Creek Wildland Park to be available for the exercise of gathering or the ability to construct a ceremonial structure because it's silent on that activity, but it is explicit in allowing for hunting, so we consider it available.
1233. Similarly for the Blue Rock Wildland Park, which is in the Turner Valley Compressor Station regional assessment area, that park allows for hunting so we consider it available for the exercise of that right, but it's silent on the exercise of gathering or ceremonial activities.
1234. A third and final area that we could consider available for the exercise of Section 35 rights are private lands where permission has been specifically obtained.
1235. We heard testimony from Elder Daniels and Elder Holloway this morning about how it used to be much easier to exercise on private lands, that they had relationships with ranchers and farmers in this area, and those things have changed over weeks and years.
1236. In a number of the interviews that we conducted with Bearspaw, Chiniki and Wesley Elders, they talked about how they used to be able to come on to private land, that they had permission from ranchers and landowners to exercise their rights, but in recent years that permission is often denied. They no longer have the relationships, the land has sold or changed ownership, and there seems to be, according to the Elders we talked to, pressure on private landowners. They're feeling pressure themselves, and so they're excluded -- Stoney report
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation being excluded from those lands to exercise their rights.
1237. Given the tight timelines that this project was under, we were unable to map private lands where participants could exercise their rights. It was just very difficult to identify private land using publicly-available information, and so we weren't able to specifically identify some pieces of private land where the right is still being exercised. So we considered all private land to be unavailable for the exercise of rights.
1238. On the flip side, how we identify lands that are unavailable for the exercise of Section 35 rights, we look for occupied Crown land, Crown land that has authorizations on it. Using publicly-available information that we can purchase through AltaLIS, we can identify licence of occupation, pipeline agreements, miscellaneous surface leases. We can identify grazing leases. We can even look and see where the provincial parks are.
1239. So a park like Sheep River Provincial Park is unlike the Bob Creek Wildland Park or the Blue Rock Wildland Park. No hunting is allowed in Sheep River Provincial Park. That activity isn't allowed there, so that land is considered unavailable for the exercise of that right.
1240. Grazing leases, licence of occupation, pipeline agreements are -- well, sorry, licence of occupation, pipeline agreements, miscellaneous surface leases are subject to the Petty Trespass Act and the landowner -- the lease holder can exclude from that lease anyone who wishes to be on it. So the exercise of that Section 35 right is lower in priority or diminished and unable to be exercised without permission without fear of being subject to the Petty Trespass Act.
1241. Grazing leases are subject to the Recreational Access Regs, which means if you want to go on a grazing lease, you're required to request permission from a grazing lease holder and they can deny permission.
1242. In interviews with Stoney Elders, Bearspaw, Chiniki and Wesley Elders, we learned that on most occasions when asking for permission to be on a grazing lease they report being denied permission, so we generally don't ask for permission to go on grazing leases any longer.
1243. Another type of land that is unavailable are private lands. Private lands under fee simple are not available for the exercise of Section 35 rights without permission from the landowner.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
1244. And finally, a third type of land that is unavailable for the exercise of rights are lands that are under a visible or incompatible use with the exercise of those activities. This comes from the case law where it says that land that looks like it could be used for something else is not available for the exercise of rights, and that includes fences, signs, agricultural activity, could be animals that are on that land.
1245. It's important to note, though, that for the purpose of this report we can identify which lands have dispositions, which are occupied Crown and which are unoccupied Crown. We can't tell you. We can't map which land is visibly incompatible. There are no shapefiles for fences. There's no shapefiles for signage. There's no shapefiles for where animals are, necessarily. So we are only able to map or identify those lands that are occupied by Crown authorization or by private lands.
1246. And just to sort of wrap that idea up or this idea up, so when a company like NGTL applies for and receives permission to construct their pipeline and their compressor station, they will also apply for and receive a disposition if their project is on Crown land. So if that project is proposed to be on unoccupied Crown land, that land, through the granting of the disposition, will become occupied land, to which the Nations' right of access is diminished. The lands will then be unavailable for the exercise of Section 35 rights.
1247. So we can see that in these maps here. So we look at the activities. We look at hunting as separate from gathering and ceremonies because of those distinctions that we can find on different kinds of protected areas. And so if we look at the regional assessment area on the left-hand side for the Rocky View section, we can see that within that regional assessment area, and only -- we're only looking here at the regional assessment area -- if we were to go outside the regional assessment area, we would probably find something very similar. But within that regional assessment area we can see that all of the land is unavailable for the exercise of the right to hunt.
1248. If we look at the Turner Valley Compressor Station regional assessment area, we can see a small portion of it in the pink is available for the right to hunt. This is land that overlaps with the Kananaskis public land use zone and the Bob Creek Wildland Park.
1249. If we move to the right and we look at the Burton Creek alternate
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation location compressor station regional assessment area, we can see that about 60 percent of it is available for the right to hunt. The grey hatching in between the two pink areas likely coincides with private lands and with grazing leases, lands that are unavailable for the right to hunt. The pink on the right-hand side, on the west-hand side -- sorry, on the left-hand side, the west side of the Highway 22 is the Bob Creek Wildland Park, which explicitly allows for the right to hunt.
1250. On the east side of Highway 22, we can see the Porcupine Hills public land use zone where the right to hunt also exists.
1251. If we look in the two pink callout boxes, we can see what happens both prior to and post-approval. So in the bottom on the left-hand side, we can see that prior to the approval of the Project, you can see outline of the Burton Creek Compressor Station alternate location. You can see that on that land, Bearspaw First Nation, Chiniki, and Wesley will have the right to hunt. But once that Project is approved, that land then becomes unavailable. The disposition is granted and is no longer available for Bearspaw, Chiniki, or Wesley Nation members to hunt on it.
1252. We see something very similar when we look at gathering and ceremonies. It just happens to be less land for those activities. So again, in the regional assessment area through the Rocky View section, it is all unavailable. In the Turner Valley regional assessment area, we see the pink that coincides with the Kananaskis public land use zone is still available for ceremonies and for gathering activities, but because the Blue Rock Wildland Park does not explicitly state that those activities are allowable and because Nation members would be reluctant to construct a ceremonial structure or take teepee poles in large amounts from places like this, they're not considered available for the right to hunt.
1253. If we move over to the Burton Creek Compressor Station, we can see that the Bob Creek Wildland Park, where it does not explicitly state that ceremonies or gathering is allowed, is not considered available, and only in the public land use zone of the Porcupine Hills is ceremonies and gathering permitted.
1254. THE CHAIRMAN: Just a clarification. You said that the lodgepoles, I thought you were talking about gathering ceremonies and sacred sites. And you said no right to hunt.
1255. MS. McGARVEY: Oh. So there's -- apologies if I mixed it up there.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
1256. THE CHAIRMAN: I'm just trying to clarify if I heard it right.
1257. MS. McGARVEY: Yeah. So if, for example, in the Turner Valley regional assessment area, if we're speaking about ceremonies and gathering, in the Kananaskis public land use zone, that activity is permitted. That is completely unoccupied Crown land. But in the Blue Rock Provincial Park where hunting is permitted but there's no language to allow for gathering or for ceremonies, it's not permitted. And I just gave the example of some ceremonial or gathering activities that Nation members would report wanting to conduct but being unable to conduct. So apologies if that was unclear.
1258. All right. And this table just gives us essentially the same kind of idea, the same look at what we saw on the maps. So in the Project development area, both prior to and post-approval -- I think I might have jumped here -- oh, there we go. Sorry. This is the Project development area. So we can see that of the 142 hectares that are comprised, the Project development area, 13 percent is available prior to Project approval for hunting, gathering, and ceremonies, and about 86 percent, almost 87 percent is unavailable for the exercise of those Section 35 rights.
1259. Once the Project is approved and particularly the Burton Creek Compressor Station alternate location has been approved and turned into a disposition, there is no longer any land within that project development area where the right to hunt, gather, or have a ceremony is permitted.
1260. I think it's important to note that the regional assessment area provides us with some context. So of the almost 300,00 hectares that comprise the regional assessment area, 82 percent of it is unavailable for the exercise of hunting. Only 17.5 percent of it is available for hunting, about 50 hectares or 50,000 hectares, apologies.
1261. For gathering and for ceremonies, we have slightly less land available for those activities. Fully almost 90 percent is unavailable for ceremonies and for gathering.
1262. Once the Project is approved, there isn't a notable change that we can see in terms of a loss of lands that are available for the exercise of Section 35 rights. But it does underscore really what's going on in this part of the province, how much land has already been made unavailable, and makes it really important
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation for us to understand that what is left in the Burton Creek Compressor Station regional assessment area is a part of some of the only lands that are left that are still available for the exercise of Section 35 rights.
1263. And we can see that when we look specifically at the Burton Creek Compressor Station. We can see that of the 19.65 hectares, almost 100 percent of that Project is on available lands. Once that Project is approved, it will become unavailable. And so while it might seem to the Board that this is a small amount of land, for Bearspaw, Chiniki, and Wesley, these 19 hectares are very important. There is very little land left in southern Alberta where those Nation members can exercise their Section 35 rights without seeking the permission of a landowner or a grazing leaseholder, where they don’t have to worry about being on someone else's disposition or lease, and where they don’t have to worry about being harassed by a Fish and Wildlife officer or by being charged by the Petty Trespass Act.
1264. The Burton Creek Compressor Station alternate location is proposed on unoccupied Crown land where Nation members don’t need permission to exercise their Section 35 rights. And by converting this available Crown land to unavailable Crown land, Bearspaw, Chiniki, and Wesley will be directly and adversely affected.
1265. All right. So I want to speak now about land and resource use. So first I'm going to speak specifically about Bearspaw First Nation land and resource use and then I'll talk about their Project issues and concerns, and then I'll go to Chiniki First Nation land and resource use if Rachel will pull up those PDFs for us or those presentations for us, and then we'll speak about Wesley land and resource use and issues and concerns.
1266. So we interviewed -- to remind you, we interviewed 12 Bearspaw First Nation Elders to identify where, in the vicinity of the Project, they exercised their Section 25 rights. The Project overlaps or intersects with 34 land and resource sites within the Project development area and overlaps or intersects with 89 land and resource use sites identified within the regional assessment area.
1267. I'd like to point out to the Board that when we look at these maps, we are looking at the information from -- at least from 12 individuals, and we are looking at information that reflects their lifetime of use on these lands. Some of the use that we have may be from five months ago. Some of the use that we identified may be from five years ago, and some of the use that we identified may
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation be from 50 years ago.
1268. This is in keeping with methodology on traditional land use mapping that considers an individual's lifetime of exercise of rights to be current exercise of rights.
1269. So in this map we can see the sites identified, the areas identified by Bearspaw First Nation Elders. We have general gathering, which you can see in the sort of large pink cross-hatched bubbles, and they overlap with the regional assessment area for the Rocky View section and overlap with the regional assessment area for the Turner Valley Compressor Station regional assessment area and the project development area.
1270. We can also see that there is a lot of overlap with the Burton Creek alternate location at the regional assessment area and the project development area itself. Nation members reported hunting deer, they reported hunting elk, moose, sheep and grouse throughout this region.
1271. Bearspaw First Nation members also reported fishing throughout the project development areas for the Rocky View section, the Turner Valley section and the Burton Creek regional assessment area. They reported fishing trout throughout this area, and whitefish. We've lumped all fishing together into one map. But throughout the water bodies in this regional assessment areas for the project, Bearspaw First Nation members reported widely fishing.
1272. Nation members reported gathering throughout the regional assessment areas for the Rocky View section and the Turner Valley Compressor Station regional assessment area. We have gathering close to the project development area for the Turner Valley Compressor Station and, as you can see on the map, on the right-hand side there's a lot of identified gathering in the Burton Creek regional assessment area, and including gathering that overlaps with the project development area.
1273. Nation members are generally reluctant to speak about specifics when talking about medicinal gathering and herb gathering, but we have identified some species, and those include wild rhubarb, wild spinach and other herbs.
1274. More specifically, we have berry gathering. As one of the Elders noted today, berry gathering is an important activity that isn't just limited to picking berries and eating them, but it connects to all other kinds of activities that
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation are important. And we can see that there's a lot of berry gathering in the regional assessment area for the Turner Valley Compressor Station, including overlapping with the compressor station site. And a lot of gathering for berries in the regional assessment area and the project development area for the Burton Creek alternate location.
1275. And berry gathering isn't simply about picking berries and eating them. Berries are used for medicinal purposes and spiritual purposes as well.
1276. We also have the identification of sacred and ceremonial sites, particularly near the Turner Valley regional assessment area, and again overlapping with the Burton Creek project development area.
1277. Nation members are also very reluctant to identify and talk about specifics in relation to sacred and ceremonial sites.
1278. Finally, we identified for Bearspaw First Nation a number of family territories that specifically overlap with the regional assessment area for the Burton Creek Compressor Station and with the compressor station alternate location sites themselves. Elder Daniels spoke about having family territories in these areas.
1279. It's important to note what a family territory is. It's a spot or a location where a family or group of individuals who form part of a family camp kind of for a period of time and are able to go out and hunt, to gather, to fish, to trap. It's a central location that they come back to year after year. It is part of their family.
1280. They pass it down from generation to generation. It has names. It is the place that they know well, and it's the place that they effectively control.
1281. Other Nation members that may want to come into that area would ask permission to come onto a family territory, and if they were going onto someone else's family territory, they would ask permission to do that as well.
1282. So family territory isn't just a spot to camp. It's a spot to conduct all the activities that are important to exercising those rights and that are important to Stoney culture.
1283. Elder Daniels was able to provide us with names this morning of places within the Porcupine Hills like Chantampah (ph), which was White Pine
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation Corner, and Peasenday (ph), which was Porcupine Tail. These indicate that he knows this area well and can speak about it as part of his family territory.
1284. He had other names for places within the Burton Creek regional assessment area.
1285. Finally, I just want to go over Bearspaw First Nation issues and concerns.
1286. Nation members reported to us that one of the things that they regularly encounter and are concerned they will encounter more of if this project is approved are signs and fences. Signs and fences create barriers to the exercise of rights. When people see signs and fences, they're concerned that they may be in trouble to exercise their rights in that area because it may be visibly incompatible with their right, so they'll often leave areas where they see a lot of signs and fences.
1287. Elder Daniels spoke about harassment quite eloquently this morning, about the desecration and damage done to stored tepee poles that they had in their family territory by development.
1288. Many Elders talk about their concerns. The more development comes into an area, the more they're likely to encounter leaseholders, construction workers and be occasionally harassed by that.
1289. They talk about being harassed by Fish and Wildlife officers that have come into the area. The more harassment, the more people coming into an area -- or the more people coming into an area, sorry, the more harassment they report experiencing and the less likely they may be to come to an area.
1290. The Elders in the interviews spoke about their concerns about harvesting, change to the quality and quantity of species. They talked about concerns in relation to water. They talk about concerns in relation to accidents and safety, safety in terms of what happens if there's an accident or an explosion on a natural gas line, but also safety or accidents in relation to the exercise of their rights.
1291. What happens if they're hunting and they accidentally damage infrastructure? Could they be liable? Could they be charged? And so the more infrastructure, the more construction workers, the more people that are in an area,
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation the less likely again Nation members are to want to go there because it's their concern and their respect for other land users and their concern that maybe an accident could happen.
1292. Elders also spoke about the importance of meaningful consultation and the incorporation of traditional knowledge and cultural awareness training in these regulatory processes.
1293. And finally, Bearspaw Nation Elders also spoke about their loss of access to family territories and Elder Daniels talked about how hard it was to lose access to some of his family territory. He referenced a burial site in that location of an infant that is a family relation to him.
1294. Other Elders spoke very eloquently about this burial as well in relation to their family.
1295. And so the impacts to culture by being unable to be on the land was an important thing for Bearspaw First Nation Elders.
1296. So what I'd like to do -- so I've gone through the Bearspaw, Chiniki -- sorry. I've gone through the general information that applies to all three Nations. I've spoken about Bearspaw First Nation land and resource use and their issues and concerns.
1297. Now I'd like to call up the Chiniki land and resource use. Thank you, Rachel.
1298. So in the process of our interviews we interviewed nine Chiniki Elders and community members to gain their information on the project, their issues and concerns and any land and resource use they participated in the vicinity of the project. Those Elders identified for us 15 land and resource use sites that overlapped the project development area and 22 land and resource use sites that overlapped the regional assessment area.
1299. There we go. Okay.
1300. Chiniki First Nation members were able to identify hunting sites that overlapped with the regional assessment area through the Rocky View section and with the Turner Valley Compressor Station and with the regional assessment area for the Burton Creek alternate location, including the project development area.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
1301. Like Bearspaw First Nation members, they also report hunting deer, elk and moose and more generalized hunting that may include other species, birds, ducks, geese as well.
1302. Those Nation members from Chiniki identified gathering sites. We heard Elder Holloway talk about picking medicines in and around the Cochrane area and being able to access them and how that was very important to him and how that has become increasingly limited over time.
1303. We can see other land and resource use sites in the vicinity of these projects, berry gathering sites, blueberries, Saskatoon and raspberry. We can see medicinal gathering sites that overlap with the Burton Creek alternative location PDA.
1304. We can see plant gatherings including sage that overlap with the Turner Valley project development area, and we can also see gathering -- medicinal gathering that runs right alongside the project right-of-way for the Rocky View section pipeline.
1305. The Chiniki participants also identified several ceremonial or sacred sites, one within the Rocky View regional assessment area, another that overlaps the Turner Valley project development area, and another that sits just north of the regional assessment area for the Burton Creek compressor station.
1306. Finally, Chiniki Elders identified for us family territories and camping territories that overlap with the project development area in the Turner Valley Compressor Station regional assessment area.
1307. Chiniki First Nation Elders had many of the same concerns that Bearspaw First Nation Elders had. They talked about noise and the difficulty inherent to hunting. When there is industrial noise or noise from construction or noise from other land users who come to areas once an area's been disturbed for pipelines or disturbed for compressor stations it becomes difficult to hunt because animals don't like to be in noisy areas and hunters don't like to hunt in places where they can't hear or where there's noise disruption.
1308. It's also not enjoyable to harvest or pick medicines in an area that's noisy, and Nation members -- Chiniki Nation members talked about how it's disturbing or not clean to be able to pick -- to pick in areas that are disturbed by
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation industrial noise. It isn't a place where you want to pick medicines.
1309. They talked about the loss of access, how science and fences create barriers to the exercise of those rights and their increasing concerns that the more of these projects that get approved, the harder and harder it is to access those territories.
1310. Similarly, they talked about changes to harvesting, the quality and the quantity of the species that they harvested. Elder Daniels spoke quite eloquently about what happens to water and his concerns about pipelines, even directionally drilled, that may contaminate the soil, that he worries about contaminating the soil and the water in the vicinity of those pipelines.
1311. That fear is his -- can have as much of an impact as the fact that it happens or not. If you're concerned that an area is contaminated by a pipeline, if you're concerned that their water is being contaminated and the plants and the animals that drink that water are contaminated, you'll stop hunting, you'll stop fishing and you'll stop picking medicines if you're concerned that they're contaminated.
1312. The Elders spoke again about accidents and safety. Elder Holloway talked a little bit about safety concerns and worries about explosions from gas lines. He talked about the loss of family territories and the potential impacts to culture and the importance of meaningful consultation as well, as did other Stoney -- as did other Chiniki Elders.
1313. And then I'd like to finally call up the Wesley traditional -- the land and resource use evidence, Rachel.
1314. Thank you.
1315. So we -- for Wesley First Nation, we interviewed 13 Wesley First Nation Elders. We had one site that overlapped with land and resource use -- sorry, one land and resource use site that overlapped with the PDA, and 15 land and resource use sites that it overlapped with the regional assessment area.
1316. And so you can see in this particular slide we have general hunting that overlaps with the regional assessment area for the Rocky View section in the north and in the south. And you can see -- actually, if you were to look carefully at these maps you can see how the hunting also overlaps with the public land use
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation zones and the Kananaskis public land use zone, which is unoccupied Crown to some extent.
1317. You can also see in the slide -- the box on the right, you can see that quite a broad amount of hunting of deer, elk and moose in the regional assessment area and just north of it, the Burton Creek Compressor Station.
1318. This area and the area in the public land use zone near the regional assessment area are some of the lands that are left for hunting, and that's why we see a lot of hunting kind of concentrated in these areas.
1319. If we look at gathering, we can see gathering does the same thing; it overlaps with some of those public -- public land use zones. We have general gathering that overlaps with the regional assessment area, and we have specific medicinal gathering that also overlaps with the regional assessment area for the Rocky View section of the pipeline.
1320. We have some sacred and ceremonial sites that overlap with the regional assessment area for the Rocky View section, and sacred and ceremonial sites that overlap with the compressor station. Some of these are important story sites that were identified by Wesley. There are some more details in the report about the specific nature of some of these sites, although I would add that it's still very broad in our report because Nation members are typically uncomfortable sharing specifics of ceremonial and sacred information.
1321. And finally we have a couple of family territories that were identified with the regional assessment area of the Rocky View section.
1322. I should add that for all three of these Nations that these -- the use that you see on this map is not the sum total of use for these Nation -- for -- not only for these Nation members, for the Nations themselves. So what we see on a map is what a Nation member or an interview participant recalled on the day that they were interviewed.
1323. It doesn't mean that these are the only places they ever went. It just means that in the course of an interview, a couple of hours, this is where they were able to recall and share information.
1324. Some of the Elders we interviewed were into their eighties. They have a whole lifetime of use and sometimes in a given moment it might be hard to
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation remember some specifics and, other times, they can remember incredible detail about a particular place or location.
1325. So when we look at these maps, we have to know that we're really just seeing a bit of a snapshot in time from a particular interview or Elder, and not the sum total of that Elder's knowledge or experience on the land, and that when we look at all of these maps and we layer all the individual information, that's only the information provided by those 12 or 13 individuals, that there's other Nation members that we didn't interview whose use we have not captured in these maps.
1326. Finally, Wesley issues and concerns, again, are similar to Bearspaw and Chiniki, the concern about a loss of access, concern about harvesting, concern about the quality of water and safety and meaningful consultation and accommodation.
1327. We had Elder Kaquitts talk really eloquently about the importance of gathering and what happens if you can't gather any longer. It isn't simply about not being able to pick berries to eat, but being able to pick berries or medicines is important for teaching and exchanging culture, for teaching young people, for sharing language, for making sure that issues are worked out, that governance issues are worked out.
1328. During gathering, culture is shared. They talk about issues in their -- for their families and for men and for women. Gathering is important for ceremonies. It's important for feasting, for honouring the dead. So all of these things are not just about picking berries, and so the concern becomes what happens when you can no longer go pick berries or you can no longer go to those places and access the land.
1329. You have a difficulty to potentially pass on that information. That's what the elders shared in the interviews, their concern about the continuance of those activities.
1330. So finally, I'd just like to wrap up and talk briefly about accommodation, potential accommodation measures. Give me a moment here to find myself in my notes.
1331. So the study team takes First Nation accommodation measures to be analogous to mitigation measures and we follow the NEB in their definition of mitigation measures where they say mitigation measures are:
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
"In respect of a project, the elimination, reduction, or control of the adverse environmental effect of the project, and includes the restitution for any damage to the environment caused by such effects through replacement, restoration, compensation, or [by] any other means."
1332. And so following the direction of the consultation office, we have proposed measures to eliminate and reduce the impact of the conversion of land to unavailable land. However, we note that while the elimination measures we propose are intended to wholly eliminate Project impacts, measures applied to reduce impacts will still result in residual impacts and residual impacts will require further control or accommodation measures to be determined through meaningful engagement and negotiation with the involved parties.
1333. And so we'd submit here a table that looks at potential measures to eliminate or reduce the impact of the conversion of available lands to unavailable lands with the conversion in the Project development area of land that was once available for the exercise of Section 35 rights that will become unavailable if the Project is approved.
1334. And so one way to eliminate that potential impact is to not proceed with the Project or to withdraw the Project application. Another way to eliminate the impact of the Project would be to create additional lands in the regional assessment area that are comparable to the following land types, so unoccupied Crown lands or occupied lands where -- Crown lands where the activities are permitted or private lands that have permission to be accessed throughout the lifetime of that -- throughout that -- throughout the lands for all activities. Or finally, to -- another way to eliminate the potential Project impact is to locate the Project on currently unavailable land, so lands that Nation members already cannot go on.
1335. We'd note though that in creating additional available lands it would be important to create lands that are comparable for use, so not lands that aren't necessarily nice or lands that don’t have the right plants or access to the right animals or they're far away. We'd have to be within the regional assessment area and appropriate to continue the exercise of those rights.
1336. Another measure to reduce the impact of -- sorry, another way we could reduce impacts but not wholly eliminate them would be to look at how
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation much land falls within the PDA but on currently unoccupied Crown lands and try and reduce that, okay, so reduce the amount of land that is on unoccupied Crown and try to increase the amount of the PDA that would actually occur on occupied Crown land. If there's any land that's taken out from unoccupied Crown or -- then there would be residual impact that would need to be accommodated.
1337. Another way to reduce the impact but not wholly eliminate it would be to only have a partial attachment of the Public Lands Act during disposition -- during construction or operation. So look at maybe only having a Public Lands Act attachment during construction and not during operations or a partial attachment of the Petty Trespass Act, say that it doesn’t apply for this particular disposition during construction or during operations, that nobody could be charged under the Petty Trespass Act, or lessen unsafe conditions that exist in the PDA, so limit the amount of people and the amount of infrastructure to the greatest extent possible so that there couldn't be a concern about being charged under the Wildlife Act or concern about just unsafe practices.
1338. Any of these particular measures may reduce the impact but not wholly eliminate it and again, would require additional conversations to be had.
1339. I'd like to also just kind of emphasize that this is one impact that we've identified. There may be other impacts. In fact, it's very likely that there's other impacts from this Project. The time limitations that we had in order to prepare information and submit it to the Board were limiting.
1340. In conclusion, our analysis shows that there is limited amount of lands available for the exercise of Section 35 rights in the regional assessment area and the study team identified the conversion of land -- of available land to unavailable land as an impact to Bearspaw, Chiniki, and Wesley Section 35 rights.
1341. The study team also demonstrated that Stoney Nakoda Nation uses the regional assessment area extensively and reported on the list of issues and concerns that may form the basis for understanding additional impacts. Not all potential impacts to Bearspaw, Chiniki, and Wesley First Nation Section 35 rights were identified in this study and the study team would like to remind the Board that Bearspaw, Chiniki, and Wesley were unable to assess the preferred location for the Burton Creek Compressor Station Unit Addition. The compressed timeline for preparing written evidence and the lack of capacity provided by NGTL also limited the scope of this study.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation 1342. The fact that the Project may result in potential impacts not listed in the study is recognized by NGTL in their additional written evidence. In there, NGTL states in relation to the Burton Creek Compressor Station alternate location that quotes:
"…development of this location may result in a change in availability of traditional resources for current use or a change to current use sites or areas during construction and operation."
1343. And this remains to be assessed. The study team recommends that before ---
1344. THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me.
1345. MS. McGARVEY: I know.
1346. THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. McGarvey, you've accelerated. I saw somebody's face getting red here.
1347. MS. McGARVEY: I literally have one sentence left. I can go back if you would like. I'll slow down. I saw the finish line and I went for it. Do you want me to back up a little bit? Okay.
1348. I'll just wrap. So the fact that the Project may result in potential impacts not listed in the study is also recognized by NGTL in their additional written evidence. In it, NGTL states that the Burton Creek Compressor Station Unit Addition alternate location of that location:
"…development of this location may result in a change in availability of traditional resources for current use or a change to current use sites or areas during construction and operation."
1349. And we would suggest that this remains to be assessed.
1350. Finally, and in conclusion, the study team recommends that the Board ensure the potential impacts from all Project components, both preferred and alternate, are assessed and accommodated. Thank you.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation 1351. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. McGarvey. I'll just ask my colleagues if they have any questions of clarification.
1352. We all find your presentation quite clear and we have no questions. Thank you very much.
1353. MS. McGARVEY: Thank you.
1354. THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Carter, would this be appropriate in the changeover to take maybe 10 minutes?
1355. MR. CARTER: Yes, that would be preferable, please.
1356. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We'll be back here at -- well, let's call it three o'clock.
--- Upon recessing at 2:50 p.m./L’audience est suspendue à 14h50 --- Upon resuming at 3:07 p.m./L’audience est reprise à 15h07
WILLIAM SNOW: Resumed LARRY DANIELS SR.: Resumed LARRY DANIELS JR.: Resumed LENNY WESLEY: Resumed HENRY HOLLOWAY: Resumed ALVIN YOUNG: Resumed CONAL LABELLE: Resumed ALICE KAQUITTS: Resumed CHRIS GOODSTONEY: Resumed CLINT HUNTER: Resumed SHAUNA McGARVEY: Resumed
--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/PRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR STONEY NAKODA NATION: (Continued/Suite)
1357. MR. CARTER: Mr. Wesley, could you start by introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about yourself.
1358. ELDER WESLEY: Yes, thank you, Mr. Carter.
1359. My name is Lenny Wesley. And going back to make an introduction,
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation I guess, my knowledge is the land. I was born some 50 odd years ago, 60, in Longview -- Eden Valley west of Longview, about 20 some odd kilometres. So as a child growing up my parents and other Elders -- I went along to various parts of the country south of Longview because they had to start with thousands of years traditional knowledge and history to back it up, identifying that region, and we’d camped there in 1950s and worked for various ranchers, so to me that was home.
1360. On to my teenage years and I accompanied my dad from Longview Boys Ranch, south as I remember, Turner Valley area where there's no wild land park. Most ranchers are private landowners where, I guess -- I’m not saying they aren’t today, they're really, you know, good to get along with, give them jobs and they were allowed to gather. I remember because I held my mom that night in the 1950s.
1361. And moving south from Longview up in the Porcupine Hills, my dad started training me the traditional knowledge that's passed on. With due respect, data collection and analogy kind of doesn’t apply in our culture, it’s a different form, it’s through oral history. I didn’t mean to offend nobody, but there's no translation for that. My translator would have a problem translating that with other First Nations. My point is knowledge of the land, if I -- bear with me.
1362. So with that training from Elders -- I was trained that the Stoney Nakoda we hunt and gather on the seasonal, on the spiritual realm and then our diet. We just didn’t see it as hunting as looked at on game regulations on the province that fish and wildlife kind of -- like enforce. It doesn’t apply like that concept. We've always never been given a chance to translate that, maybe this is the time to share a little bit.
1363. We’re seasonal hunters. We knew a certain -- that's what my dad trained me from his dad passed on, oral history goes to 500 years. In fact, I can bring out names of my ancestors five generations to 1825 when Rocky Mountain House was part of a construction. My great-great-great-great-grandfather passed that knowledge on that we are still seasonal hunters to harvest fur, berries, preserve, you know, like big game. And there's a season that we go and harvest. We’re not trophy hunters, we don't hunt for the antlers, because we do that in the spring. We call it “shed hunting”, (speaking in Native language), for -- like instrument, spear, knives, scraping hides.
1364. And we know what part of the country, the east corridor right from
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation north Saskatchewan river to Waterton. I grew up in there, 40 years I’ve walked it with my dad, he’s passed on. And that season will start from August to before the bull moose mate, once they mate we don't hunt the bull moose, but we need that fat protein. That's what I’m sharing.
1365. It’s sacred, but I respect this tobacco, just to show myself that it’s very important that we’re consulted in any substation or pipeline that run anywhere. It’s our seasonal. There's a perimeter us First Nations -- any First Nations would not cross. I still have it. If you cross that, there's a word for that (speaking in Native language), there's consequences after that. Translation closest that Larry Junior and myself would come out -- come up with is “adrenaline junkie”. You do not climb rocks in these mountains.
1366. But anyway, going back to the harvest, namely on the Porcupine Hills, we need the fat of different species of deer and moose, and then the antler less. And then (speaking in Native language) we called it, a moose, elk and deer, deer without a fawn, elk without a calf. And a moose without a calf, there's another name for that species, (speaking in Native language), a cow moose that's lost its calf and turned -- call it dry. We’ve hunted them, that's -- we didn’t survive here, mind you, we thrived here.
1367. We were told by Elders, “Try living on a lean meat diet.” There's history, old history, Hudson’s Bay camping up in the North Battleford, 150 of their personnel, the factor, the person in charge enforcing, introducing the law to First Nations. His men, they all starved to death on a lean meat diet. That's -- I still carry that, Larry still carries and hunt by that, same with Alvin.
1368. That's why we are so concerned about any pipeline near the Porcupine Hills west of where is proposed Burton Creek. We have a name for that that Larry would identify, Larry Junior would translate, and Alvin Young and then Clint with his relatives would look at providing -- we've made good relationships with the farmers. We call that area -- it’s about three to four kilometres from that Burton Creek substation. (Speaking in Native language). Elk Moss Back. That's where, like I said earlier, we're seasonal. Where the month of April and June, we know exactly what time, mind you, almost to the day that elk go and calve in because of ultraviolet rays heating up the slope. (Speaking in Native language) is the translation.
1369. So anyway, just to share that. And then the Kay country, my dad moved up north after and I went to a school in -- my education in Exshaw and
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation Morley. And then I dropped out because I was already too far trained. I'm a tracker by profession. I have a trapline and that's my -- that's what I do. I track.
1370. And my sisters, they all went up with their education, gone to the Three Hills. That's a great province, so all them colleges and university there. They're retired now but me, I'm a trapper. Like, I think I have more knowledge with the land than they would, scientific. That's what my dad said.
1371. And I've worked -- I've been employed with the band 15 years with Alvin Young, Clint Hunter, because we have that knowledge about traditional land use identification to work with energy, you know, gas and oil companies. Like, these companies come in, they propose Shell on the reserve, and then we do a -- that's inside and then external of work to sundry, giving out identification, like, the traditional land use. And that included campsites, trails, warrior's trails, thermal pattern of harvest. There's always a report on that orally.
1372. And I've done that with Alvin, Clint, for 15 years where we were identified as any -- they thought we were like, a few foremen for the pipeline. It's not that. It's different. Never have I -- although I don’t show any regret, all these reports we make for these gas and oil companies, never have I made one where I made a letter of objection just to be good working relationship. We have a (inaudible) to these gas and oil companies and we expected something as a comeback, you know, even as a regard to us. And we've made these reports, gone to the province, allowing them to get their permit, and they're drilling, you know, and they’ve given us jobs rotating sometimes and external and appreciate that. That's what I've been doing 15 years.
1373. I guess, was it last year, two years ago, they said, "Want you to stop that. We want you to run as a band councillor because you got the knowledge."
1374. So here I am, sitting. But I like the other job better because of the fact, 2009, we got this call from a band, the three bands there, like, Shauna named then during her presentation. She's like a sister to me. So Chiniki, Bearspaw, and the Wesley.
1375. To kind of clarify like, this presentation is on the south side of Morley, it's elevated 21,000 feet sea level on that ridge overlapping Sybil Flats, called it. There's two Shell plants there directly southwest as the crow fly about eight and a half kilometres, these two gas plants elevated as well. We did liaison work with my two colleagues. That's a Husky and then comes to an elbow and then further
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation and then there's the Imperial which is over 46 kilometres due south.
1376. First, we got a call from the Bearspaw and members because they're elevated, to me first, Alvin. It circulated. Said, "We're getting this -- it's like a coffee aroma, a smell that you’ve always been," you know, and talking to us about off and on, oh the rotten egg smell. And it's like what you gentlemen identify. But we're getting an inner irritation in the eyes.
1377. So anyway, where is it as strongest? Up on that hill, that Sybil Flats where the Bearspaw and then Chiniki. Wesley's on the north side of the Bow River.
1378. So in those cases, we're all trained, three of us, Shell trained what to do. Calm, you know, don’t exaggerate. Get the people settled down. Close their windows until one of us start calling the ERCB, the policemen policing out there.
1379. But the thing was, we didn’t get a quick response and it's frustrating when that happens. You know, we needed to identify it because there's two gas lines and a gas well on the south side, elevated. Until we kept phoning and we got that -- the contact man. He was vacationing in Radium. So he made a -- his cross call for us. It was a real concern, a real concern because we got watery eyes.
1380. Anyway, something must have happened in connections, you know, and went up the hill and then ERCB, they called it. We were confident that ERCB would protect us because those are First Nations guys. I think his name was Bladoies (ph.). He promised he'll look after it. Don’t worry and everything.
1381. So he was, I guess, in Fort Mac because it was 2:09 and it was New Year's Eve. I mean, who wants to be going to a, you know, gas line or substation at that time? You want to be with family, right?
1382. But shouldn’t there be somebody appointed? I'm not making allegations. I'm talking the truth because I have it in my report, roughly around four or six hours til we got a response.
1383. Then anyway, these trucks came out with these monitors. I could have sworn it was close to 14 point parts per million on that hill, little lower. And then they couldn't identify -- couldn't know where that leak was. It wasn’t on a pipeline, somewhere in the valley or on the hill. Was it from Husky? Was it from
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation Shell or Jumpingpound?
1384. It took more than four hours til we suddenly got a call that this is way beyond your imagination that you ever even thought of. It's west of Millarville. That's a human error, from the stack in Imperial. That's -- somebody forgot to close that pipe or something happened. Maybe the guy wasn’t trained. But it's just our suspicion, eh? We can make allegations but the fact is, we had sore eyes.
1385. But they left the valve open or something, poor maintenance. And to top it off, we were never included in their ERP, Emergency Response Plan because they said it would never happen, one in a million. You're too far away.
1386. What happened was -- we got just a report. It exploded, shot straight up and because of sub-zero temperatures that we've thrived on for thousands of years and we knew the thermal pattern -- it's called Chinook winds, and that; we have history on that. It was never recognized, what we told them.
1387. Saw it straight up just like a pine beetle you catch on the radar. That black cloud just flew -- moved north and then it kind of spread out, circulate, like you know, came back and then it must have run thin air. He dropped and disseminated right on that Bearspaw village.
1388. So the next, Billy's brother, Peter, was working for environmental, then the gas and oil companies, but it was Imperial. And what can I say? They weren't aware of it. They ignored our culture, our tradition.
1389. These thermal patterns along the east corridor -- we've been here thousands of years. Sometimes -- you call it climate change. We call it different. It changes sometimes. It'll twist whatever's -- it'll like blowing out and then it'll land where you never even thought of. That's the spiritual realm I just brought out. There's a line you cross. It's there.
1390. So we got reports about over -- a little over 130 that felt this should have a look at their eyes, so asked them to go and get a check-up from a doctor. And then out of 30 that went and 22 reports we got back from a professional medical Canmore Calgary that it was in there that they did have an injury.
1391. They turn it in, gave it to Billy or Peter, and then three RCB or somebody, anyway. And if this line ever goes, what if it -- there's a blow-up. We'll be ignored again.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
1392. We want to -- all we're saying is please hear us. Thank you.
1393. MR. CARTER: Mr. Wesley, there was a grizzly bear study that the Stoneys were involved with. Could you please talk about the grizzly bear studies and the findings that you guys made?
1394. ELDER WESLEY: It's kind of a secret, but just -- but yeah, I'll share it.
1395. You know, like some -- I don't know if like, you know, compensation or some -- some what should have been given to us is what the Band members ask us, "Are you guys working on it?" Some -- because we felt we were injured.
1396. Yeah, we told the Band lawyers that somebody's looking into it. Maybe our reports weren't good enough. But we'll try again.
1397. And to -- again, to help out the province because the grizzly bear population is just seven to 11 years ago, grizzly bear you seen on TV was at the level of being considered in endangered species list. We know that's not true because we live with them.
1398. Not side by side to be in the mountains. In fact, being a trapper 40 years on my trap line, I've slept with mountain lions about 30 feet that were just studying me, a whole -- like you know, like a litter, cubs, you know.
1399. And Alvin, he's our tracker. Clint is a hunter. Training given to us by our Elders. And we live here. We are part of the land. We're trained what to do.
1400. And as a result, we noticed that grizzly bears, some disturbance, half moved east of -- during presentation Shauna said west of 22, then east of Highway 22. For some reason, they've all migrated where they're not supposed to east of Highway 22.
1401. There was a grizzly bear sighting where they used to ask us, "Take me on a grizzly hunt". Our neighbours, if you got a good grizzly bear, go to Gleeson, the Blackfoot Nation, riding on stone. Drumheller. If you're trophy hunting, the best bull moose to identify, harvest is on the Blackfoot Nation, the nation in Gleeson.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation 1402. They've all kind of just moved around. Something's not right. And we cannot identify it, although we could speculate.
1403. So we agreed, but we're not going to debate. It's no use. As long as we know in our culture we're safe at the population of the grizzly bears, it's more than a way past -- they're not endangered.
1404. Our department said when I was on consultation to do our report where they done up and make our report, what else you see on our land -- on the land.
1405. So we rode in the winter, November-December. Even for that, we just got a little -- just a handful of -- a few dollars just to complete that so we can do a report and help the province. All we're doing is trying to help and be recognized. That's all we're saying.
1406. And I identified five -- six grizzly bear dens in Kay country, made a report with environmental around and other where -- another thing I noticed was we got no consultation whatsoever, the province. I don't know who's doing that.
1407. They make -- grade these hiking trails about 26 feet near a grizzly bear den and then there's a nursery. That sow needs to train her cubs. It's a pouncing lesson area. And by report, we heard two people got mauled.
1408. I don't think any stranger come into my house, walked into the front and back door, my wife would allow that. The grandkids there. That's the same thing.
1409. There's no consultation. We don't -- we're not recognized. Soon as they think that we've been here thousands of years without, you know, any electronic memory we might know something.
1410. So that's -- anyway, Billy, I have to recollect our reports want something in the province. That was my studies.
1411. Thank you.
1412. MR. CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Wesley.
1413. Please answer any questions that the Board may have.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
1414. THE CHAIRMAN: That's very interesting because I'm always in the mountains. I don't like being 20 feet away from a grizzly bear.
1415. We found your presentation very good, and we thank you for it.
1416. ELDER WESLEY: Thank you so much for saying that, your respect. Thank you.
1417. MR. CARTER: If we may take one last 10-minute break before we call our last two -- remaining two witnesses, that would be appreciated.
1418. THE CHAIRMAN: Certainly. So by the clock I'm looking at, we'll be back here at quarter to 4:00.
1419. MR. CARTER: Thank you.
--- Upon recessing at 3:35 p.m./L’audience est suspendue à 15h35 --- Upon resuming at 3:49 p.m./L’audience est reprise à 15h49
WILLIAM SNOW: Resumed LARRY DANIELS SR.: Resumed LARRY DANIELS JR.: Resumed LENNY WESLEY: Resumed HENRY HOLLOWAY: Resumed ALVIN YOUNG: Resumed CONAL LABELLE: Resumed ALICE KAQUITTS: Resumed CHRIS GOODSTONEY: Resumed CLINT HUNTER: Resumed SHAUNA McGARVEY: Resumed
--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR STONEY NAKODA NATION: (Continued/Suite)
1420. THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Carter.
1421. MR. CARTER: Clint Hunter will be testifying next. He is a member of the Wesley First Nation.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation 1422. Mr. Hunter, could you start off by introducing yourself and telling us what you do?
1423. MR. HUNTER: Yeah. Good afternoon. My name is Clint Hunter. I'm from Morley, Alberta. Grew up in Morley, went to school in Morley. Back in 1997 I got hired as a oil and gas advisory doing oil and gas stuff, present, and you know, to talk about the TransAlta incident back in -- about 10 years ago.
1424. Yeah, the incident happened around 8:30 in the morning. We didn’t get a call til two o'clock in the afternoon. And I guess the contractor just went door to door to the nearest residence and some people don’t know what's going on or they don’t understand, like, it's due to the gas leak. And after two o'clock we went back to the residents, talked to them in Stoney, explained what happened. And ever since, we were involved and the ERP was one gas and oil company, NBP. That's the only DRP they have on the reserve. I guess Shell has it but I don't know if the Stoneys were involved.
1425. And Rabbit Lake area, Wildcat Hills, that's where all Wesley First Nations and all the Stoney goes hunting. And I guess the proposed pipeline goes by there. And we'd like to know why we're not involved.
1426. That's all I'd like to say here today. Thanks.
1427. MR. CARTER: Mr. Hunter, if I may ask you some questions? What is your role as the oil and gas advisory?
1428. MR. HUNTER: Well, they call it liaison now. We monitor our land, every activities, we're involved. We have to do cultural and environmental assessments.
1429. MR. CARTER: So if there is an emergency such as a gas leak, what is your role?
1430. MR. HUNTER: Well, we -- on that other MPP project, we have road block numbers that we go do and as a rover, we go to door to door and talk to the people that needs evacuation or disabilities that doesn’t speak English, just Stoney, talk to them in our own language.
1431. MR. CARTER: Do you remember when -- what year the gas leak occurred that you were referring to?
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1432. MR. HUNTER: Two thousand nine (2009).
1433. MR. CARTER: And do you remember what company it was?
1434. MR. HUNTER: I guess TransAlta was doing work for ATCO Gas, ATCO Pipelines incident.
1435. MR. CARTER: Do you recall how the incident occurred?
1436. MR. HUNTER: Like I said, they didn’t give us a call til two o'clock, so it would have been better if they called us at 8:30.
1437. MR. CARTER: Were you notified about what happened?
1438. MR. HUNTER: Yeah, except they break the gas line, some little piece there and gas was spraying.
1439. MR. CARTER: And what was the follow up afterwards?
1440. MR. HUNTER: Never had any follow ups from them before or I never heard or nobody told me anything about it. Maybe Lenny did or I don't know, or Alvin.
1441. MR. CARTER: Thank you. Those are all my questions. Please answer any questions that the Board may have. Thank you.
--- (A short pause/Courte pause)
1442. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We were talking a lot there but we decided that we had everything -- we understood everything. Thank you very much.
1443. MR. HUNTER: Thanks.
1444. MR. CARTER: Mr. Alvin Young will be testifying next. He is a member of the Chiniki First Nation.
1445. Mr. Young, could you please introduce yourself and tell us what your position is with the Chiniki First Nation?
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
1446. MR. YOUNG: My name is Alvin Young and I represent Chiniki band. And I've been hired as the liaison since 1999. And I'm really happy to help all the three Nations of the reserve there, which is Bearspaw, Chiniki, and Wesley.
1447. And like, as Lenny and Clint were saying, well, we all work together and we've seen a lot of changes, you know, since 1999. And on safety-wise, well, like, both Lenny and Clint were saying, there, like, the Quirk Creek incident there, yeah, we were just notified there after it happened and then we went around -- I mean, we couldn't go around because -- I mean, we went around there that time but that was during a New Year's Eve and we couldn't hardly get to anybody. But later on, they were all noticed by the New Year and they were all -- some of them started to panic. But we talked to them and on that incident, they didn’t notify us right away because if something worse had happened, I don't know what could have happened to the reserve, you know.
1448. And on the CB (ph.) incident there, like, Clint was saying, well, I had a call from an elder saying that, "Hey, when am I going back to my house?" he was saying. "What happened?"
1449. I told him, "Well, there's a guy from CB who's saying that there is a gas leak and you're all going to die," so we better get out of here, the two of us.
1450. "And I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about, " I told him. And then, well, I phoned around and then later on we found out that it was an incident that happened in CB there, like, on the Alta link.
1451. And later on, well, we went to the houses and then that's when we got a call from a person from the EACRP -- I mean, ERP saying that there was an incident happened at CB.
1452. And well, we did our best, but like I said, you know, well, at the first place, they should have told us first so we could talk to the Elders and some of them, like, they don’t understand English that much. But they do but not too regular, like, you know? So we had to do our explanation to them.
1453. And then on that CB incident, well, they were starting to panic but I talked to them and then later on I found out it was a leak there. And then later on I got a call from the incident and saying that it's safe to go back to the house. So I
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation told the people about going back to the house.
1454. And if I could, well, I would like to add a few incidents here too, like with the ATCO Pipeline that goes right through the reserve. I feel like every year we’ve had incidents in relation -- there's some pinhole gas leak on the reserve. All this time -- see, that pipeline was built in 1951, it was dug by hand. And I went up to the company and I asked them, “What’s the minimum depth of the pipeline these days?” And I asked them and they told me it was four feet. And then we found out on the reserve it’s only 18 inches to 20 inches deep in the pipe -- in the ground where the pipeline is, and eight-inch pipe; gas is running towards for Canmore and Banff through there.
1455. So every year, sometimes we’re having some kind of incidents in there but it’s not that dangerous like we’re seeing in -- and in the few times, like in the past, like there was a pipe -- there was a sawmill right through the pipeline there and there was a forklift operator was operating the forklift and there was a bump in there he was saying. And then finally then we found out there was a pipeline was right in there and was driving all over that time.
1456. That’s it, then. Thank you.
1457. MR. CARTER: Mr. Young, if I may ask you some questions?
1458. As the oil and gas liaison, could you tell us what your specific obligations are?
1459. As the oil and gas liaison for the Chiniki First Nation, what are your responsibilities?
1460. MR. YOUNG: Well, I work as the liaison for the Band and as a liaison, it’s like -- see, when we go to -- when there’s a company coming to the reserve, well, the oil and gas company, we talk with them and then find out if there's any jobs. I mean, if they want a pipeline through the reserve, we question them, is our people included on the jobs. And safety-wise, like, you know, because most of our people aren’t safety trained and we ask for them to be trained at first and then we -- then they could hire them on the jobs.
1461. And then for -- like, for safety-wise, to save our people from if there’s a leak or any place in there, we can go out and notify all the people that’s on the -- on the dangerous areas, like you know, so there’s some staging in that where we’ll
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation have to tell them to go and there's quite a bit of work in there but there’s three of us, and sometimes we go about seven days a week, like. But if I see -- like our job is to save the people and get some jobs for our nation, too, at the same time.
1462. MR. CARTER: Mr. Young, if there is an emergency, what resources do you have to implement an emergency response plan on the reserve?
1463. MR. YOUNG: Well, there's quite a few areas there, like -- see, like about -- if it’s on the west end, there's some certain areas that we used to -- for staging, like, say, like and others. So one area there was -- for the STA, which is Stoney Tribal Administration, and then later the -- there was one by -- yeah, there used to be one at the restaurant, Chiniki Restaurant there, too, but it’s closed now.
1464. And I don’t know; I hope nothing happens now because I think that’s the only two major areas that we tell the people for -- and which way do they go? Well, if it’s on the south side, well, we tell them go to up west or the north because you don’t ever go downwind, we told them, to -- if there’s an incident happening on the reserve.
1465. MR. CARTER: Mr. Young, are there any additional resources that you require or have requested to, for example, implement an emergency response plan that you currently don’t have?
1466. MR. YOUNG: Yeah. Like, in the past, like, we’ve had good companies working for us like, on the -- like, the first time we started on the gas and oil. There was a Tawow Resources that was from here in Calgary which had -- run by a Native contract and he came to the reserve and he made some -- I mean, he hired some young guys off our reserve and they took them all over. And then later on, he could bring jobs to the reserve too.
1467. But what I’m saying right now there’s no jobs for the young people right now. So if we had a company like that, but I don’t know why the three chiefs didn’t understand this Tawow Resource, and they let them go about 2012, I think it was, yeah. And then from there it’s Stoney Nakoda contract in -- but before that, see, like, we had a lot of jobs going on.
1468. And that Tawow, it was run by Darryl Bouvier, which I think he’s still running it now. And if we had something like that on the reserve, well, maybe we could reduce all the, what do you call, pill-popping thing and the suicides because there’s no jobs -- hardly any jobs on the rez right now.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
1469. Thank you.
1470. MR. CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Young. I have no further questions. Please answer any questions that the Board may have.
1471. MEMBER MALO: With respect to the particular pipeline and the compressor stations, are you in discussions at the moment with NGTL with respect to the safety concerns and developing an emergency response plan?
1472. MR. YOUNG: Well, I was - I mean, we’re all with -- there was a company named NVP which the -- we were involved with the ERP with them. And there’s Shell, Shell Company, and the one by Wildcat Hills. But I don’t know; another company owns that now, I think.
1473. MEMBER MALO: With respect to this particular project, have you started discussion on the ERP with NGTL?
1474. MR. CARTER: Sorry. Bill Snow is the consultant and would be in a better position to answer that question. Unfortunately, I can’t give any information on that right now.
1475. THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Carter, I believe this is everything we have and I’d like to thank your -- Mr. Young and Mr. Hunter for contributing to this hearing. Thank you very much.
1476. I lost my notes here. Was this the last panel?
1477. MR. CARTER: Yes, this concludes our evidence.
1478. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I apologize for that. I had too many papers in front of me.
1479. So this brings us to my closing statement. We're at the end of the Oral Statements and Oral Traditional Evidence in the NGTL West Path Delivery Path Project Application.
1480. And just one last time; are there any remaining matters?
1481. MR. CARTER: There are none.
Transcript GH-002-2018 Stoney Nakoda Nation Oral presentation
1482. THE CHAIRMAN: Since there are none, on behalf of my colleagues, I would like to thank everyone who appeared before us this week, everyone in attendance, and everyone following via our Web site.
1483. And also our Madam Security Officer that kept us all safe.
1484. I would like to thank our Regulatory Officer, Madam Rachel Savoie, Board Legal Counsels, Madam Christine Beauchemin and Ms. Marian Yuzda; and all our staff, for assisting the Panel today and throughout this proceeding
1485. And now we are adjourned.
1486. Thank you very much.
--- Upon concluding at 4:09 p.m./L’audience est ajournée à 16h09
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