REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Wednesday, June 22, 1960

Present: The Governor (Sir Ronald Resolved.—that for the year commencing the 6th day of April, 1960, and .ending the Garvey, K.C.M.G., K.C.V.O., M.B.E.). 5th day of April. 1961. the standard rate of In the Council: The Lord Bishop (Rt. income tax shall be the rate of 4s 6d in the £. Rev. Benjamin Pollard, T.D., D.D., Hon. members will know that the M.Sc.), Deemster B. W. Macpherson, the Income Tax Act, 1954, provides that the Attorney-General (Mr G. E. Moore), standard rate of income tax should be Sir Ralph Stevenson, G.C.M.G., Messrs determined by resolution of Tynwald, G. H. Moore, Alfred J. Teare, M.B.E., and the resolution before the Court is J. H. Nicholls and E. B. C. Farrant, that the standard rate of income tax M.B.E., with Mr E. R. St. A. Davies, should be 4s 6d in the £ for the present M.B.E., Government Secretary and financial year. Clerk to the Council. In the Keys: Mr Moore: I beg to second and The Speaker (Mr H. K. Corlett, 0.B.E.), reserve my remarks. Messrs T. F. Corkhill, T. H. Colebourn, E. N. Crowe, J. L. CaUlster, H. H. Mr Colebourn: I didn't speak on the Radcliffe, H. C. Kerruish, Lt.-Cdr. J. L. surtax motion yesterday, Your Excel- Quine, Messrs J. C. Nivison, W. E. lency-- Quayle, H. S. Cain, A. H. Simcocks, Mr Corkhill: For good reasons? C. C. McFee, T. A. Coole, G. C. Gale, A. S. Kelly, A. Cecil Teare, J. Edward Mr Colebourn: For obvious reasons, but I was amazed to hear the figure of Callister, T. A. Corkish, R. C. Stephen, £77,000 quoted as being arrears of J. M. Cain, 0.B.E., W. B. Kaneen, E. C. surtax. I think that is a rather Irving and J. B. Bolton, with Mr F. B. amazing sum when one considers the Johnson, M.A., Secretary to the House smallness of the amount of money that of Keys and Clerk to Tynwald. does come in by surtax. The Governor: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but we shall be INCOME TAX—RATE (UNCHANGED) coming to the question of surtax. This LEVIED only relates to income tax and perhaps the hon. member will confine his The Governor: Hon. members of the remarks to income tax. Court we will procede with the No. 1 agenda, item No. 4, Income Tax for Mr Colebourn: I am coming to income Manx Residents. I call on the learned tax. Your Excellency. Attorney-General. The Governor: Good. The Attorney-General: Your Excel- Mr Colebourn: I wonder whether we lency, I beg to move' the resolution could have the figure for the amount standing in my name:— outstanding for assessments of income Whereas by section 1 of the Income Tax tax? (No. 1) Act, 1954, it is enacted that the stan- dard rate of income tax to be levied shall be The Governor: Does no other hon. determined by resolution of Tynwald. member wish to speak?

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The Attorney-General: Your Excel- where the Manx income tax assessment lency, it is inevitable that where a staff has to be taken into account by the Eng- of an income tax office is small for the lish companies for the whole of their amount of work they have to do, that organisation. That again, inevitably, there should be a certain amount of takes a certain amount of time. With backlash in the issuing of assessments. regard to surtax, the amount collected Equally, where a person sends in his for the year ended 5th April, 1960, was accounts and the Assessor raises any only £14,764, yet the arrears of surtax question on them, there is an inevitable collected during the same year in res- pect of previous years amounted to no delay while the Assessor's queries on less than £71,782. It is just one of the 'accounts are investigated and those things that it is inevitable there answered and the result is that it is should be a certain amount of delay and quite impossible and always has been yet I agree that the arrears figure is impossible for all assessments either of very large. I can say from my personal income tax or surtax to be made during knowledge that the Assessor and his the year for which the assessment staff have made a determined effort and applies. If the hon. member for Castle- are continuing to make a determined town will see in the Government effort to reduce the arrears so that in a Treasurer's observations at page 3 the few years' time the positions will be total collected during the last financial nearer but never actually the amount year ended 5th April, 1960, was to be collected during the year. It can approximately £271,000—that was out- never come completely to the amount standing and collected, and £326,000 to be collected in the year, but the odd of the previous year's was also out- Assessor is making a determined effort standing and collected. There is, of to do so. Without being critical of the course, a further minor point which procedure I think I should mention a arises. When assessments are made,. it small point on this matter of staff. does not necessarily say that the tax Within the last few months two mem- will be paid immediately, and the proce- bers of the Assessor's staff who are well dure is, I think, well known to lots of qualified in their jobs have applied for people. Assessments are made, and consideration for promotion to positions after due course of time if the assess- of better classification in other Govern- ment is not paid, a further form is sent ment departments and they have been out, and then comes the red form, in- successful. Now everyone wishes to forming persons concerned that they give to every civil servant an oppor- might be placed in other hands, and tunity to improve their position but then comes the stage at which out- from the Assessor's point of view two standing assessments are placed in the of his skilled men have gone to other Attorney-General's hands for collection departments. It would be wrong to and the Attorney-General has to endea- resist that but it increases the Asses- vour to collect it. There is an inevit- sor's difficulties for the persons he will able delay before the sums which have have in replacement have not had time been outstanding do, in fact, reach the to get the skill in their jobs essential to hands of the Government Treasurer. carry out the work at the speed the The figure I gave was only in respect of others did. resident income tax. There is also some Mr Corkhill: That could apply to £70,000 outstanding and collected from industry as well. non-residents in respect of the year ended 5th April, 1960, and nearly The Attorney-General: It could, I £29,000 collected for previous years. agree; it is one of those things, but it is There again the same issue arises, parti- worse when the Assessor's staff is small cularly in respect of companies which to lose two men at the same time and are branches of English companies it does create difficulty.

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Mr Colebourn: Thank you, sir. hon. member for Castletown has said Mr Kaneen: Is not the Assessor's that interest should be charged on difficulty that on the establishment his arrears of tax but I think the difficulty staff is too small. is the assessment is not made in some cases because the office had not been The Attorney-General: In reply to the able to deal with it. hon. member for East Douglas, Mr Kaneen, the Assessor takes the view Mr Bolton: I would like to refer to the that his staff is not as large as it should question of the double taxation agree- be and I take the same view. My own ment. I do not think it is realised by opinion is that if the staff of the the members of this Court or the Assessor's office was increased the cost public generally that that arrangement of the extra staff would be far less than has placed an enormous strain on the the amount recovered in the staff Assessor's Office and members of the getting out assessments quickly. Income Tax Commission have been asked by His Excellency to consider the Mr Colebourn: Is it not a fact then effect of the double taxation arrange- that credit costs money. ment and I think I can say that mem- The Attorney-General: It does. bers of the Commission have been sur- prised by the enormous amount of work Mr Colebourn: That is why I felt involved in getting out assessments. We when I heard the figure that if I had are investigating the whole matter with left my tax over for a year or two, and a view to arriving at some arrange- surtax. I would have made a lot of ment which can be more easily operated money if I had invested it in my own and I hope we may be able in the future business and I think there is a case for to put forward some proposals. In view charging interest on unpaid income tax. of the resolution abolishing surtax the I have the privilege of having an question of double taxation will be accountant who has taken a seat in this reduced and it may be we will be more House and I think the Assessor has a easily able to deal with the situation. good lieutenant in the gentleman. Mr Moore: I do not like the idea of The Attorney-General: I have no knowledge if the hon. member for South clerks having to change from the income tax department to another office. They Douglas is in arrears. have access to everyone's income tax Mr Kerruish: I am wondering why return and it is not a good thing for the hon. member did not refrain from them to go elsewhere with that know- voting in view of his pecuniary interests ledge. but at least I can see the intimate way in which these things are worked round The Attorney-General: In final reply, the Court. There is one point, sir, and may I thank the Speaker and Mr Bolton that is the shortage of the staff to which for their remarks on the effect of the the Attorney-General has referred, but double taxation agreement which I no doubt this will be rectified by the should have mentioned myself. I can- increase in hours to. be worked. not let Mr Moore's remarks pass with- out saying while it is true that changes The Attorney-General: It will. of staff from one department to another The Speaker: Would it not be fair to create difficulties for the person going say, in case of any mistaken impression, into the income tax department from that it was Tynwald's attitude in adopt- another office and going from the ing the scheme to avoid double taxation department to another, the principle has in reciprocity with the United Kingdom got to be accepted that if we have a that has caused the additional 'work unified Civil Service everyone in the and that we are at fault in not having service must have the opportunity for extra staff to meet the problem. The advancement and has the right to

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expect he will be considered for SURTAX—RESOLUTION advancement. If it were not so an WITHDRAWN—SURTAX TO BE unfortunate person would perhaps get CHARGED FOR YEAR 1960-61 into an office where the opportunity for advancement is very small and he might The Governor: Item 6. I call on the be tied ,to that office permanently. A Attorney-General. man of merit may never get the oppor- The Attorney-General: In view of the tunity of getting a job which his merit decision of the Court on item 3 on this deserves. Suppose one man entered the agenda with regard to the Income Tax service at the age of twenty and went Report, I would ask leave to withdraw into a small office and then another item 6 on the agenda which stands in came in at eighteen. The second of my name:— those men would never get anywhere Whereas it is provided by section 90 of the beyond a junior position unless he got Income Tax Act, 1946. that Tynwald may, by the opportunity for transfer elsewhere resolution, in respect of any income tax year. or unless his senior was transferred resolve that the rates of surtax for such year because in a small office he would never s.hal I be at such rates as shall be specified in get the chance of reaping the reward of such resolution. Resolved,—that for the year commencing his own hard work. the 6th day of April. 1960, and ending the 5th The resolution was carried. day of April. 1961, the rates of surtax shall be as follows:— The Governor: Item 5 on the No. 1 In respect of the first £2,500 of total agenda. I call on the Attorney-General. income Nil In respect of the excess over £2,500— For every £1 of the first £500 of the excess 10d INCOME TAX RATES— For every £1 of the next £500 of the NON-RESIDENT excess 1/8 For every El of the next E500 of the The Attorney-General: I beg to move excess 2/6 the following resolution:— For every El of the next £1,000 of the . excess 3/4 Whereas by section 4 of the Income Tax Act, 1946. it is enacted that, in respect of the For every ,E1 of the next £1,000 of the income tax year commencing the 6th day of excess 4/2 April. 1946, and any subsequent income tax For every El of the next £2,000 of the year, income tax shall be payable on every excess 5/- £ of taxable income derived by any person For every £1 of the next £2,000 of the not residing in this Island or any association excess 5/71 not registered in this Island. from any trade, For every £1 of the next £5,000 of the profession, employment or vocation carried excess 6/3 on by such person or association in this For every £1 of the next £5,000 of the Island, and from any other source within this excess 6/101 Island, at such rates as may be determined by resolution of Tynwald with respect to such For every £1 of remainder of the year. excess 7/6 Resolved—that for the year commencing hon. members will bear in mind that by the 6th day of April, 1960, and ending the 5th day of April. 1961, the income tax payable on the Income Tax Act, 1946 it is provided every £ of taxable income derived by any that surtax should be paid at rates set person not residing in this Island or any out in the Schedule to the Act since association not registered in this Island, from any trade, profession, employment or voca- amended by the 1949 Act which pro- tion carried on by such person or association vides that Tynwald may impose surtax in this Island, shall be at the rate of 4s 6d at such rates as are set out in the in the £, and from any other source within Schedule, provided that Tynwald may this Island, at the rate of 3s Gd in the E. by resolution resolve that the rates for This fixes the non-resident rates of any year shall be as specified in the income tax and they are the same as at resolution instead of the rates in the present. Schedule. The resolution No. 6 which I The resolution was carried. ask to withdraw imposes the same rate

Income Tax Rates—Non-resident.—Surtax—Resolution Withdrawn—Surtax to be Charged for Year 1960-61. 1810 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 of surtax as in the present year. We to live and I am quite sure members of would be inconsistent with the vote of this Court will honour that if, it is this Court yesterday in dealing with passed this morning, It is not worth that and I ask leave to withdraw it. spending £85,000 because we do not trust each other. That is what it Mr Irving: I wish to oppose the sub- amounts to. Members will stick to the stitution of the new resolution for the agreement( and will not say "I have original resolution. I am opposed to changed my mind" when the legislation this resolution as it stands. The comes before us. I am confident enough obvious intention is to commit to yes- in hon. members of this Court who even terday's decision, which is fair enough. opposed the abolition of surtax would But this new resolution means one of support it in the future rather than let two things—a gift to the existing surtax the Isle of Man Government down. I payers of the Island or a lack of confi- hope the Court will reject this hasty dence that members of Tynwald will and in fact monstrous proposal to, in stick to their decision yesterday to effect, back date it from two months abolish surtax. The effect of the reso- ago at the cost of £85,000. It is not lution is this: surtax will be abolished worth it. in the Isle of Man from April 6th, 1960. The Income Tax Commission recom- Lt.-Cdr. Quine: I cannot agree with mended that it should take effect at the the hon. member who has just spoken earliest opportunity and I believe the for this reason: the colonies and Nigeria earliest opportunity is April 6th, 1961. in particular will this year be sending I would stress the fact that I am not home those colonial officers with con- interested in the effect on local surtax siderable compensation for loss of office payers and I cannot believe that people and they will be looking for somewhere who might come to the Island will to live and some of them will come to refrain from doing so because it is to the Island. start in 1961 and not 1960. I feel that persons who desire to come here to live Mr Nivison: Over two and a half will need several months to arrange thousand? their affairs to come here. By April,. Lt.-Cdr. Quine: More than that. I 1961, I would say there will be very think it is better to stick to the original few if any more surtax payers in the idea so that it can percolate out to the Island. If we pass this new resolution colonies before the Nigerian Govern- it is going to cost the Isle of Man ment takes over and these officers come Government £85,000, and is it worth it? home. Of course it is not. It is going to cost £85.000 in loss of receipts in one year. Mr Nicholls: I am not quite clear on It is estimated that that sum will be the effect of the resolution on the lost in the year beginning April, 1960. agenda. As I understood it the resolu- It will not be received in that year but tion was that His Excellency be asked it will be assessed in that year. If to introduce legislation. It would we have money to give away, there are seem to me that until that legislation is many more deserving causes than local approved, if it is approved, that we are surtax payers. We are doing this as a not, in fact, actually abolishing surtax business investment not for the benefit at the moment. We yesterday approved of local surtax payers and I am in of the principle and that was that legis- favour of the original resolution, but as lation should be introduced, and I am an amendment it might be added that just wondering whether we are "cutting from 6th April, 1961, surtax will be before the knife" if we approve the abolished. Then we will be committing amendment before legislation is intro- ourselves to people on the other side duced. I would like to be quite clear who may be interested in coming here on that point.

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Mr Stephen: I think, sir, that if this of their investments with the intention resolution had been moved by any other of coming to the Isle of Man in the member of the Court he would have future. We must now stick strictly to been shot down, and I do not think the the decision we have made. As long as hon. member for Douglas West has been legislation is made effective at an early quite fair about the matter. We know date so that these people may rest what his views are. I think the time assured they will not be called upon to to do this is by legislation in the ordi- pay surtax after April next, I am quite nary way. Of course, it is decidpd now sure that the scheme will be effective. that surtax will go, because I feel sure The approval of a resolution by Tyn- that the Legislature will honour the wald is merely an opinion; the effective resolution which was approved yester- matter is the legislation and as long as day, but let it be known that the date legislation follows quickly I am quite will be 5th April, 1961. I do agree with sure that the abolition of surtax in Mr Irving that if we make the date 5th April next will be just as effective as April, 1960 we shall be making a gift to the abolition from last April; even more people resident here and yet it will not affect those who may come here in the so will it have its effect upon our imme- future. I oppose the withdrawal of the diate economy, but it is essential that resolution. having given our word to these people that we should stick to it and put Mr Bolton: I would like to make some through the legislation quickly so that comment on this matter, Your Excel- they may be assured beyond any ques- lency. To me. it is immaterial whether tion that there will be no surtax in the the abolition is deferred until 5th April, Isle of Man when they come here, and I 1961 or not, from the point of view of very much doubt whether any of them the effectiveness of our decision. I will be able to come here before cannot see, sir, when we have made a several months have elapsed. I have decision on the 21st June„ 1960, that it is had knowledge within the last two days going to have any great effect upon our of a man who writes to a friend of his economy before 1960-61, but I do feel from Southern Rhodesia and he said we should be very clear upon this—we that when he retired he wished to live have passed a resolution stating that in the Channel Islands, but he had we intend to abolish income tax. within the last few days heard that the (Laughter.) Isle of Man intended to abolish surtax, Member: Surtax. and if that were so he would rather come to the Island to live instead of Mr Bolton: Sorry, sir, I am looking going to the Channel Islands and would ahead! I am a bit optimistic. Now make such arrangements. Therefore I that decision has been publicised and say we must stick to what we have done. will be during the next few days or I am quite agreeable to the amendment weeks throughout Great Britain and the but I think myself that we should be in world; in fact, wherever people are who a position to collect the extra £85,000 may decide one day, because of it, to into the revenue in the meantime. I am come to live in the Isle of Man. We quite easy in the matter so long as we cannot allow a position to arise which understand that we will honour what may create doubt in the minds of these we did yesterday. people. Our decision must be honoured and they must know that if and when Mr Colebourn: I think,. Your Excel- they come to live here they will not be lency, it would be very bad psychology called upon to pay surtax. They must to alter what we did yesterday— know they can take the necessary steps to sell up their homes wherever they A Member: We are not trying to alter are and, if necessary, make adjustments anything.

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Mr Colebourn: We are going to get a Mr Kaneen: I move, sir, that the good Press to-day -and for the next few question be now put. weeks-- Mr Corkish seconded. Mr Edward Callister: There are two The Governor: It has been moved and sides to the Press. seconded that the question be now put. Mr Colebourn: I am not a wealthy Mr Nivison: The question is which man. (Laughter.) question! Mr Irving: Aren't you the only man The Governor: The question which in the Court who is a millionaire? would be put is the withdrawal of the Mr Colebourn: Don't be offensive! existing resolution and the substitution Although I am one of the miserable of the new one. Members of the 310 Club it does not necessarily mean that I am wealthy, The Attorney-General: I am sorry. but I do enjoy the friendship of wealthy sir., but the question which will be put people, and last night my telephone means that the debate will be termi- rang many times, and two of these nated. It does not mean that we shall wealthy friends told me they were be voting on the resolution. immediately making arrangements to Mr Simcocks: If this present come over and live on the Island and motion-- they had made up their minds imme- diately they had read that we intended The Governor: I am sorry to have to to abolish surtax. I think it would be rule the hon. member for Rushen out of very wrong to delay this measure for a order, but under the resolution before further year; I am quite convinced we us now no further debate can take are all agreed that this measure should place. be brought about, not for people like Mr Simcocks: Will the learned myself or other surtax payers in the Attorney-General have an opportunity Isle of Man, but to induce wealthy to reply before the vote on the resolu- people to come to live here. I am per- tion is taken. fectly prepared to continue to pay surtax at the present rate, providing The Governor: Yes, and I will now you let off the people who will come put the motion that the question be now here. To me it does not matter—the put. less money I have, the less I have to The Governor put the resolution spend, and I think that is generally and declared it carried. accepted by most people. We must look The motion went to a division when at this as an incentive for people to the voting in the Keys was:— come here and I think it will prove to be one of the finest things we have done For: Messrs Radcliffe, Quayle, H. S. for the Labour Party, because it will Cain, Simcocks, Coole, Colebourn, Mean there will be more employment Stephen, J. M. Cain, Kaneen, Kelly for labour. It would be far better for and A. C. Teare-11. the working class to have a higher Against: Messrs Corkhill, Crowe, J. L. standard of living through work than Callister, Kerruish, Lt.-Cdr. Quine, grasp whatever work he can and then Messrs Nivison, McFee, Edward draw unemployment pay. Robin Hood Call ister, Corkish, Irving Bolton, tried it, and so did Dick Turpin and they Gale and the Speaker-13. filed-- The Governor: The motion is lost in Mr Nivison: And Harold Colebourn the Keys by 11 votes to 13. It was tried it! (Laughter.) passed in the Council by seven votes to Mr Colebourn: Robin Hood took from one, Mr Moore voting against. The the rich and gave it to the poor. debate, therefore, on the withdrawal of

- Surtax—Resolution Withdrawn—Surtax to be Charged for Year 1960-61. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1313 item 6 on the agenda No. 1 will now Mr Stephen: There will be legislation, continue. Mr Nivison: There may be, but there Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, on the is no guarantee there will be, and we question of procedure, in my opinion, I have even seen a fresh wind blow think even the supporters of the aboli- through the Court this morning with tion of surtax should adopt a certain regard to the immediate abolition of line. They should support the resolu- surtax which was not apparent yester- tion which is contained in the printed day. I think whatever happens we agenda which does make provision for must vote for the printed resolution No. the Governor to collect the tax, but I 6, because that fixes the dates from the think it is wrong to omit the tax from 6th April this year which is not the last 5th April, which has gone already by two months. I think even the sup- current year. porters for abolition—I was not one The Governor: May I interrupt? myself yesterday—will agreed they had Before any other member of the Court no idea they would be handed this new speaks may I point out the position. In resolution on a slip of paper to-day. We have dealt with item 3 on the the event of the original resolution agenda. That was before the Court No. 6 coming before the Court I have yesterday and under it you cannot make before me an amendment in the name provision for this year and I think that of the hon. member for Douglas West, the date on the little slip of paper Mr Irving, which will place at the end which has been circulated to us should of the resolution the words "Further read 6th April, 1961, and not 6th April, resolved in respect of the year starting 1960, although the hon. member for the 6th April, 1961, and ending on the Douglas West does not agree. 5th April, 1962, surtax will not be levied." Mr Bolton: That is not what I said at all. Mr Kaneen: I second that amend- ment, Your Excellency. I think we Mr Nivison: It may not be, but I con- shall have to impose surtax up to the sider that we must make provision for 5th of April, 1961; otherwise we are collection this year, and in my opinion giving a free gift to people on the Island you should vote for the resolution which and that, in my opinion is not honest. is continued in the agenda. No. 6, but if The reason why I moved that the ques- certain members wish still to continue tion be now put was because I was to give the impression that surtax is trying to avoid the "slanging match" going to be abolished you may require we had yesterday. It was disgusting. a further resolution. You spend £80,000 to bring visitors to Mr Irving: We have an amendment. the Island and then get up in this Court and do more damage to this wonderful Mr Nivison: I can only say I shall be Island. Thank God we are able to live obliged to vote for the printed motion in it. I don't want that to happen again. and vote against any other resolution and I would strongly advise other Mr J. M. Cain: I am rather surprised, members of the Court to do the same. Your Excellency, that after we have I was trying to suggest, even if I am in released the information that surtax the minority, that if the world learns was coming off—and I am sure the one day that we are going to abolish impression was given that it was coming surtax, and then the next day learns off this year—that a member of the that we are voting for the retention of Commission should now come forward surtax by passing No. 6, I think another to-day, after the news has been resolution should be forthcoming to released, with this amendment. We make our position consistent have a member of the Commission

Surtax—Resolution Withdrawn—Surtax to be Charged for Year 1960-61. 1314 TYNWALD count JUNE 22, 1060 coming forward to-day to try and cut to His Excellency and to the Attorney- out the good work done yesterday. I General and others who drafted -the just don't understand it. resolutions to say that the reason why the alternative resolution was prepared Mr Edward Callister: Your Excel- was to enable the Court to give effect lency, I do not intend going into the to the declaratory resolution if carried. merits or demerits of surtax, but yester- Mr Edward Callister: By passing day we passed a resolution and I must resolution 3-- be very dull, because I don't understand what is going on to-day. The resolution The Governor: This is a point of we passed yesterday stated that surtax explanation now? would be abolished this year and now Mr Edward Callister: No, the Speaker we have this resolution "for the year interrupted me with an "explanation," commencing the 6th day of April, 1960, but he made a speech. By passing ending the 5th day of April, 1961, the resolution 3 yesterday we, in principle, rates of surtax shall be as follows—in adopted the doing away with surtax, respect of the first £2,500 of total but keeping id on, just to keep it in income, nil; for every £1 in excess of the Statutes. £2,500, ld." Members: No. Members: No. Mr Callister: Well, that is my opinion. By voting for resolution 3, this Court The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt, was deciding that we should do away but I am afraid the hon. member is with surtax. The id was merely an working under a misapprehension. excuse to keep it on the Statutes. I am Sitting in this chair I am trying to not going into the merits of surtax or restrain myself from speaking but find otherwise, but I am going to join issue it difficult. Now •on the merits of the with Mr Irving and Mr Colebourn. The question, the vote which I recorded war is not over until the last fight has yesterday is sufficient to indicate that I been fought, and I am going to fight this am not convinced that it is in the best to the bitter end. I do hope that interests of the Island to abolish surtax. members will have second thoughts on On the question of procedure, I am what they did yesterday. In my bound to say that as the Court passed a opinion it was the greatest we have resolution yesterday and persons have committed in this Court for a very long claimed this to be the salvation of the time. With regard to the remarks Island, then I think the sooner it is put made by the hon. member for Middle, into effect the better, so we can see the Mr Nivison, I think he is confusing the result. As for the proposals contained imposition of tax with the collection of in the declaratory resolution carried tax in this current year. I mentioned yesterday, no one can guarantee to-day that I have yet to fight the last battle— what should be paid in the future—in that will be when legislation comes another year. The hon. member, Mr before this Court. I hope the electorate Irving, says he is going to put an will read what happened in Tynwald amendment fixing the date of change yesterday. Personally, I don't accept as April, 1961, but I would say that that the fight is over. we are not competent to say to-day what is to happen in 1961-62. The Mr Corkhill: Your Excellency, yes- Court. then will decide that in the light terday I took it that Tynwald decided of what is on the Statute Book and the that you should bring in legislation to financial position at the time. This do away with surtax. There was no will still be left in the air to be deter- doubt that that was the intention. But mined when the question of new legis- I take it that in this current year lation crops up. I think it is only fair surtax must be continued. It must be

Surtax—Resolution Withdrawn—Surtax to be Charged for Year 1960-61. TYNWALD COURT, JUN 22, 1960 1315

111.1.111•■■ continued because we are in the current understanding that we were debating year. If, in bringing forward legisla- this year's Budget not next year's tion, you decide that surtax should be Budget. We budget for one year only. abolished at the end of 1961, I see For us to consider next year's Budget nothing wrong with that and I don't is, in my opinion entirely wrong. If know what all the shemozzle is about. I this publicity has already gone round think it is up to Tynwald to decide if the world—that Tynwald Court, by a they want it. majority, has voted in favour of the Mr Radcliffe: Yesterday, Your Excel- abolishment of surtax, then I will be lency,. I opposed the resolution very prepared to stand by the majority strenuously, perhaps too strenuously. ruling. But there is also the bigger But I want to make it quite clear that question. referred to by the hon. mem- this Court passed a resolution to request ber, Mr Bolton—the question of future His Excellency to abolish surtax. I assurances. We can only assure them accept the majority decision of this for one year that surtax will be Court and when legislation is brought abolished. It must be remembered that forward I will support that legislation. there is a general election next year. I do support Mr Irving and Mr Bolton They may entirely alter all existing about next year. legislation and reintroduce surtax. Members: This year. What assurances can we give to these would-be residents? Mr Radcliffe: To carry on the present rates this year and abolish it next year. Mr Edward Callister: None at all. That is what happened in Guernsey. In the last paragraph on page 1 of the Members: Vote. report it states: "In mid-1954 it was announced that surtax would be Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, abolished. In 1955 it was abolished. whereas it is perfectly true that the They adopted that procedure in Guern- effect of the resolution we passed yes- sey. I repeat, Your Excellency, I will terday was to accept the report of the stand by the decision ofj the Court. Commission and request Your Excel- lency to introduce legislation, neverthe- Lt.-Cdr. Quine: Your Excellency less I think the Court will agree that The Governor: I think the hon. mem- the public don't necessarily read every ber has already spoken, word with complete accuracy. The public do tend to jump to conclusions Lt.-Cdr. Quine: I have just one ques- which are sometimes not fully supported tion, sir. Would I be right in saying by the facts. It appears to me that the that in England when the Chancellor majority of the public are of the brings in his Budget statement in the opinion that yesterday we decided to first week of April, I think it is, his abolish surtax there and then. The proposals can become effective from fact that what was actually passed was that day, although the Finance Act is only a resolution to request Your Excel- not passed probably for some months lency to introduce legislation, might afterwards? Are we in the same posi- very well have escaped the notice of our tion, sir? readers. I feel as a matter of public relations, that the Court would be very Mr Irving: It is not in the Budget. well advised to agree to the withdrawal Mr McFee: Your Excellency, we of item No. 6 and the acceptance of the claim to be a democratic Court and the alternative resolution. I feel that how- first principle of democracy is that we ever well intended the amendment. abide by the majority decision. I am moved by the hon. member, Mr Irving, prepared to accept the majority ruling. might be I cannot see at present how .an I also came to this Court this week, Act of Tynwald can in effect be repealed

Surtax—Resolution Withdrawn—Surtax to be Charged for Year 1960-61. 1316 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 merely by resolution of this Court. I The Attorney-General: I can only would ask the Court to agree to the understand that the earliest possible withdrawal of item No. 6. moment means at the earliest possible moment. Sir Ralph Stevenson: I seconded the withdrawal moved by the learned Mr Stephen: On a point of order, will Your Excellency rule that the alterna- Attorney General and I think it would tive resolution does abolish surtax. be a mistake, Your Excellency, if we did not agree to withdrawal of this The Governor: No, it does not. It pro- item 6. I do think we should take the poses a nominal rate of a penny, but it alternative resolution on agenda 1 (a). does not abolish surtax. Mr Stephen: In other words it relieves Mr Stephen: Purely on this question the rate. I just wanted an explanation. of withdrawal, Your Excellency, all we carried yesterday was the adoption of The Attorney-General: You would a report saying that surtax should be have had the full explanation if you had abolished. That would not take effect waited. I have said that the alternative until legislation is passed. We have resolution was sent to you because the no alternative but to impose surtax for Commission recommended the abolition this current year, with the under- of surtax at the earliest possible standing that Tynwald voted yesterday moment. It is no use Mr Speaker by a very strong majority, to abolish shaking his head and saying not. It is surtax at the very earliest date. I think so. we should accept resolution 1 (a) The Speaker: I have said nothing. The Attorney-General: Your Excel- (Laughter.) Your Excellency, am I not lency, the position is His Excellency allowed to shake my head? approved agenda No. 1 so that the sixth The Attorney-General: I would shake interim report could be taken, the my head in the other direction. The recommendation of which is in one sen- position is this, and I hope you will tence "we therefore recommend the appreciate it. Surtax is imposed because abolition of surtax at the earliest oppor- there is an Act of Tynwald saying there tunity" and I stress "at the earliest will be surtax and it will only be opportunity." Now then, His Excellency abolished if there is an Act of Tynwald knew that Tynwald had not had an saying it will be abolished. Please bear opportunity of considering the report that in mind—someone has said it is not when the agenda was printed and that so—but take it from me that only an it was a matter for Tynwald to decide. Act can alter an Act. Therefore, in His Excellency's resolu- tions for the Budget, there is contained Members: We are all agreed. a repeat of the old surtax proposal, but The Attorney-General: Now then, the there was also sent to you a resolution Act which says one shall impose surtax which would carry out the intention of also say in section 90 that Tynwald may, Tynwald if Tynwald accepted the by resolution, vary the rates of surtax. recommendation of the Income Tax The Act contains certain rates which Commission. were then applicable and those rates were altered in 1949 by a new schedule Mr Irving: The intention. but notwithstanding that, Tynwald may, The Attorney-General: The intention by the authority of the Act, alter the of the Income Tax Commission that rates for any particular year. As, at the surtax should be abolished at the moment, Tynwald has approved the earliest possible moment. principle of the abolition of surtax, surtax in some form must be imposed Mr Irving: You do not know their until an Act has been passed carrying idea of the earliest possible moment. that abolition into effect, and that is

Surtax—Resolution Withdrawn—Surtax to be Charged for Year 1960-61. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1317 why you got this resolution and the to abolish surtax at the earliest possible resolution on the alternative agenda as moment, and you have to pass this saying that Tynwald has accepted the resolution now. May I ask you to deal principle of the abolition of surtax at with this for one important matter and the earliest possible moment and legis- I take the words of the hon. and gallant lation will, therefore, be introduced to member for Garff because I am certain carry it into offect but, in the meantime, he has pinpointed far better than I Tynwald is proposing to fix the surtax can do that it is a business matter. rates at the nominal sum of a penny in There are persons now throughout the the £ which is according to the Act world seeking places to which to retire. until a new A.ct is passed. The hon. member, Commander Quine, Mr Edward Callister: Which could be mentioned Nigeria, but Nigeria is by no at the next sitting of Tynwald. means the only place to which British Mr Stephen: Your Excellency, could persons are going and seeking homes to the Attorney-General explain to us—I retire. Who, for instance, would go to admit he has been helpful in educating Malta. us in our elementary instructions—but could he tell us if in other Income Tax Mr Stephen: Mr Dor. (Laughter.) Commission reports making tax reliefs, The Attorney-General: I was going to the legislation has come forward imme- say that only a fool would go there. diately. (Renewed laughter.) The point you The Attorney - General: I cannot have got to bear in mind is that there answer for previous reports, but I can are undoubtedly people in many parts say that alterations in income tax can of the British Commonwealth who, by only be effected by statute. reason of constitutional changes there, Mr Bolton: I would like to answer will have to seek new homes. Those that for the Attorney-General. I can people look around to see where they say that every report of the Commission like best and one of the things they has come before Tynwald for approval consider is the question of taxation, and before the legislation has been brought one of the things I know they consider forward. seriously is whether there is surtax and estate duty. But to delay it a year, as The Attorney-General: I accept that. the Commander said, is running the risk Any legislation has been introduced into that we will miss an opportunity of get- the branches consequentially. ting the persons who would otherwise Mr Stephen: My point is that after the go elsewhere. It is a test of your busi- report was received no immediate action ness acumen and it is nothing more. If was taken by the Legislature. you defer it a year you are saying we are taking the risk of losing the persons The Attorney-General: That may be we seek. so and it may be in respect of the last two reports since I became Attorney- Mr Stephen:• May I ask the learned General, but the legislation has been Attorney-General a question. He has made retrospective and given priority made great play of the expression "at treatment in both branches. But the the earliest opportunity" but after simple point is as I have said the resolu- what the hon. chairman, Mr Bolton. and tion of Tynwald cannot be regarded as myself and Mr Irving—who form the having passed until legislation is con- majority of the Commission have said— sidered by the branches, but having said was it not true to say that the earliest to the world that we propose to abolish moment we considered was April 1st, surtax it is only by the amending reso- 1961. lution that you can carry out that in- tention honourably. (Dissent.) You The Attorney-General: I did not say passed a resolution, based on the report that at all.

Surtax—Resolution Withdrawn—Surtax to be Charged for Year 1960-61. 1318 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

The Governor: I will put the question of Standing Orders because it did not before the Court and I think we should reach you in time. I think I should be clear in our minds that the item on move the suspension of Standing Orders Agenda No. 1 should be withdrawn in to enable this to be considered with the favour of the resolution on Agenda la. explanation I have given. It was a The resolution went to a division and misunderstanding between His Excel- was carried by 13 votes to 11 in the lency and myself. A correction — I Keys and unanimously in the Council, think I should ask special permission be the voting in the Keys being:— given under Standing Order 26/6 and I thank the Speaker for drawing attention For: Messrs Crowe, J. L. Callister, Lt.-Cdr. Quine, Messrs H. S. Cain, to it. Simcocks, McFee, Coole, Colebourn, Sir Ralph Stevenson: I second that. J. M. Cain, Bolton, Kelly, Teare and the Speaker-13. Mr Irving: On a point of order. We have heard the Attorney-General make Against: Messrs Corkhill, Radcliffe, a statement which may put some doubt Kerruish, Nivison, Quayle, Edward Callister, Stephen, Corkish, Kaneen, in hon. members' minds. What he is Irving and Gale-11. asking is the suspension of Standing Orders so that this new resolution may be taken. Surely the position is that if you are refused permission we take the RATES OF SURTAX, 1960-1861. original resolution which retains surtax. The Governor: We will now consider The Attorney-General: It is gone. agenda No. 1 (a). Mr Kerruish: Might I ask, sir, if Mr Irving: No it is not gone. We have agenda 1 (a) is in order under Standing not voted on it. Order No. 46? The Speaker: The motion before the The Attorney - General: Might I Court is for special permission to take answer that, sir. It is not strictly in the new resolution and we should get on order and the reason is this. I think with the vote if we wish to discuss the Your Excellency will probably wish me proposal. to say this. The question of the posi- tion which might arise if Tynwald The voting on the resolution that accepted the report of the Income Tax special permission be given was as fol- Commission was discussed by His Ex- lows in the Keys:— cellency with me, I forget the date, but it was some date early last week, and For: Messrs Crowe, Radcliffe, J. L. we were agreed that this was the Call iseter, Lt.-Cdr. Quine, Messrs method of doing it. Unfortunately, I Quayle, H. S. Cain, Simcocks, thought His Excellency was arranging McFee, Coole, Colebourn, J. M. the preparation of this matter and he Cain, Bolton, Kelly, Teare and the in turn thought that I would be doing Speaker-15. so, and it was not until the following day that we both realised that nothing Against: Messrs Corkhill, Kerruish, was done about it, and it was a day later Nivison, Edward Callister, Stephen, reaching you. Strictly speaking it is Corkish, Kaneen, Irving and Gale not actually in order. —8. Mr Nivison: Is that good enough for The Governor: The motion is passed the Standing Orders? in the Keys by 15 votes to nine and The Attorney-General: No, I am unanimously in the Council. We will making an explanation and strictly proceed with item 1 (a). I call on the speaking there should be a suspension Attorney-ge,neral.

gates of Surtax, 1960-61, TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1319

SURTAX TO CEASE 6th APRIL, 1961 pruning any service. Can you give an assurance that your Budget is balanced The Attorney-General: I beg to move even if this is carried? the following resolution in my name:— Whereas it is provided by section 90 of the Mr Kerruish: I rise to oppose the Income Tax Act. 1946. that Tynwald may by resolution, Your Excellency. Yesterday resolution in respect of any income tax year resolve that the rates of surtax for such year you increased taxation by £72,000. The shall be at such rates as shall be specified in ordinary taxpayer of the Island — the such resolution. smoker—is being asked to provide that Resolved,—that for the year commencing to enable you to strike a balance on the 6th day of April, 1960. ending the 5th day of April, 1961, the rates of surtax shall be your Budget after ploughing a sum in as follows— from resrves. To-day you are propos- In respect Of the first £2,500 of total ing to give away £85,000 through this income Nil resolution—and I say £85,000 and not For every £1 in excess of £2,500 id £35,000, which is an accountant's gim- This is darrying into effect the decision mick to mislead the Court. of Tynwald made yesterday with regard Mr Bolton: Not true. to. the abolition of surtax at the earliest opportunity. It reduces it to a nominal Mr Kerruish: It is perfectly true. sum of ld in the £ on sums over £2.500 until Tynwald has the opportunity of The Attorney-General: It includes considering legislation to abolish surtax arrears. completely. I am sorry I did not say Mr Kerruish: I am aware of that. To when asking for special permission that say £35,000 only will be lost is abso- the position would be if this resolution lutely misleading as far as this Court is is not passed. If the resolution is not concerned, and to suggest that this year passed surtax rates will be the rates we are going to derive benefit from contained in the 1949 Income Tax Act people coming here to reside is also mis- which will mean that surtax rates will leading. We are going to lose this sum start at I think, £2,000, and will be and increase taxation while people who somewhat heavier than the rates last in fact we should be trying to get into year. our net, benefit from it—the higher Mr Nivison: Is it not true that the earners in the Island. I am chairman of Court could resolve any rates to-day if a Board who employs some of these this is rejected. people—the consultants over £3,000 a year who are hundreds of pounds better The Governor: We should have to sus- off than there counterparts elsewhere. pend Standing Orders. But this year they are going to reap an Mr Nivison: We have not rejected the advantage along with business men rates on the agenda. The Attorney- knowing full well in the current year it General is misleading the Court. will not draw a single resident to the Island. I can see that this action to-day The Attorney-General: The rates are is one that will be reflected in the in item No. ( 6 which has been withdrawn opinion of the electorate in the not too and that finishes it as far as this agenda far distant elections. I am sure people is concerned. of the Island will be profoundly dis- Mr McFee: Would Your Excellency turbed not only by the proposal to give an assurance that this will not in abolish surtax but also this proposed effect reduce your Budget by £85,000. concession which will in no way be The Governor: £35,000. effective in inducing surtax payers to come here. - Mr McFee: Will you give an assurance that you do not want this sum this year Mr Bolton: I am disturbed by the and it will not mean depletion of our methods which have been adopted to reserves by £35,000, and will not mean deal with a serious matter of govern-

Surtax to Cease 6th April, 1961, 1320 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 ment. The assertion has been made by I want to remind the hon. member of his the hon. member that we are going to own words because a lot of this report lose £80,000 with the implication that is no doubt the words of the chairman we are going to lose it this year, when of the Commission. Dealing with the he knows full well that we are not. The existing taxation as far as industrialists position is that the resolution was on are concerned, he said "we are not con- the agenda to impose surtax at the old vinced that tax inducements would rates. This Court voted for the with- result in any large scale movement of drawal of that resolution with a view to new businesses to the Isle of Man." Now passing this new one. Surely having he has a completely different story. withdrawn this one the Court has got There is little prospect that the differ- to pass the other. It may be good as a political move, but we are not getting ence in the surtax rate is very much on with the business of the Court. We different than the difference in income are wasting our time and the result will tax. There has been a difference of be the same. eight shillings for some years, but now he is taking a completely different Mr Nivison: The hon. member moved view-- the resolution yesterday for the adop- tion of this particular report. I opposed Mr Bolton: You are alright for a it, but I was prepared to be a party to debating society! its implementation. The second part of Mr Nivison: That is offensive. We the report said in no uncertain terms know that the hon. member for Douglas that we should request the introduction West is a rude and offensive man. It of legislation. It did not say we should does not matter to me, but I do submit, reduce the rates of surtax. The Com- Your Excellency, that this sort of thing mission recommended we should abolish is not good parliamentary procedure. It surtax and that was agreed. Never is an insult. It is insulting to say that before have we seen things try to be another member of this Court "is done so quickly. We have always been alright for a debating society." My told by the Attorney-General and others point is that the hon. member is incon- that it would be impossible to do things sistent in the stand he took yesterday so quickly as this recommendation is and the stand he is taking to-day. It being dealt with no matter how desir- was agreed then that legislation should able the measure may be. This little be introduced; to-day it is said we note was prepared in anticipation of cannot even wait for legislation and we what the Court might do. That alone must abide by what is on this little slip was sufficient to aggravate many mem- of paper (holding up a slip of paper). bers of the Court. I feel sure the If this Court accepts such hasty legisla- members of the Court should not pass tion then, in my view, it is wrong, and a resolution which is inconsistent with I think it would be ominous for the anything contained in the report. The future. I hope the reso;ution before the report deals with the abolition of Court will be rejected. surtax. The resolution before us deals with an amendment of the rates. There Mr Edward Callister: This seems to is so much inconsistency in the whole me to be a scandalous piece of class matter of dealing with it. References legislation. The hon. member for Dou- were made yesterday to reports five and glas West, Mr Bolton, tried to make six and I want to repeat what the chair- figures prove that black was white, but, man of the Income Tax Commission in his own business, if there was an un- said in the fifth report which is not collected figure of £85,000 at the end of before the Court, but will come up later the year it would be shown in the on in this agenda. There are lots of balance sheet things the chairman knows but for some reason or other they are not brought up. Mr Bolton: We get paid for it.

Surtax to Cease 6th April, 1961, TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1321

Mr Edward Callister: Maybe, but if Mr Corkhill: Your Excellency, I you were given £35,000 towards that oppose the resolution. I voted yester- £85,000 the balance, £50,000, would still day for the resolution on the under- appear on the balance sheet, and if you standing that legislation to give it effect scrap surtax now you will lose £85,000. would be introduced to alter the present Mr Bolton: I never said anything conditions, and I think if we vote different. hastily now it will be a step in the wrong direction. I do not see how we Mr Edward Callister: I will leave the can alter the rates without legislation Court to make up its own mind about and until that legislation has been that. accepted by the members of the Legis- The Governor: I feel, gentlemen, that lature. these interruptions are not helping . Mr Kaneen: Your Excellency, I, too, business, and I would ask hon. members am opposing the resolution. I voted for to refrain from making them. the resolution yesterday on the assump- Mr Edward Callister: There are two tion that the abolition of surtax would points which I wish to make. I would take effect from next year, but, accord- like you to ask yourselves, seriously, ing to this resolution, abolition will take how many people, Manx people, return place from last April—two months ago to the Island to retire? How many? A —and that means that 134 people will very very small percentage, and yet receive a free gift of many thousands these are the people who love the Island of pounds. It may even affect members and who, I would think, for sentimental of this Court. Is it honest that we reasons would like to return here. No, should be a party to such a thing? I say they are retired in the United Kingdom, it is dishonest. It would mean that we and yet you expect to attract complete would be here saying we wish to attract strangers because we abolish surtax. more residents — and then relieve our The point is one of attracting money to own pockets. That is what it means. the Isle of Man. We have already Mr J. M. Cain: Why did you not say attracted a lot of artificial money to the all this yesterday? Island in view of the fact that we have no death duties here, and I think that Mr Kaneen: Because I did not think will prove disastrous for the Island in this present resolution would come the end, but even the fact that we have before us to-day, and I still maintain no death duties has so far not attracted that if the Court decides to abolish sur- a mass of people; in fact we have tax from last April, then we shall be attracted very few. The argument in doing something dishonest. favour of the abolition of surtax to my Mr A. Cecil Teare: The proceedings mind does not "hold water"; in fact, I in this Court to-day, Your Excellency, cannot understand anyone trying to are causing me great concern-- argue in favour of it, but there is one other question, over and above all this Mr Stephen: It must break your and that, if the resolution carries to-day heart as a surtax payer! we are not going to collect £85,000 from The Governor: I must really ask the 310 people who pay surtax in this members to refrain from these inter- Island, and there are people in this ruptions. Island, old age pensioners and so on, who are finding it difficult to exist and Mr A. Cecil Teare: Thank you, Your are living in hovels which are a disgrace Excellency. It was a most uncalled-for to us, and if we pass this peace of class remark. What I am saying is that yes- legislation then all I can say is that we terday we devoted ourselves to discuss- are lacking in conscience. We have no ing surtax or no surtax and we had right to allow these people to escape numerous speeches on the subject and paying £85,000. the issue was settled, and now, on a

Surtax to Cease 6th April, 1961. 1322 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 matter of detail, I could almost call it a should be substituted the words 'for question of administration—(laughter) every £1 of the first £500 of the cxcess —we are still talking! It could be left to 10d' and then follow down to 7s 6d in administration to deal with these things, the £." That may not be the proper and yet here we are discussing the way to put the matter before the Court, whole thing again! I think it is a very but perhaps I could be corrected if I am serious thing that this Legislature wrong and it would stop this weird side- should waste its time on a matter of stepping detail now that the big issue has been settled, and I do appeal very earnestly The Governor: I must just speak on to hon. members not to continue in this the question of the proposed amend- unbusinesslike manner. Let us settle ment. It cannot be in order because the this matter now, and get on with the resolution has, in fact, been negatived by the withdrawal of item 6 on agenda agenda. No. 1. Mr Radcliffe: For very different Mr Radcliffe: Then could I get at it reasons from the hon. member for this way, sir. For the first £500 pay- Ramsey, Your Excellency, I, too am ment shall be at the rate of 9d. confused; in fact I am terribly confused over this matter. We have the learned The Governor: Yes, I will accept that. Attorney-General moving a resolution Mr Irving: I would like to point out for the suspension of Standing Orders that unless we carry this amendment and then saying that a "vacuum" the abolition of surtax is, to my mind, exists because item 6 on agenda No. 7 lost. has been withdrawn, and then we are told that if we accept No. 1 we are going The Attorney-General: Unless this back to the 1949 rates. No one told us resolution is carried (holding up a that in the beginning! There has been paper). a lack of leadership. I voted for the Mr Irving: There are hon. members suspension of Standing Orders, but I did of this Court who supported the aboli- not know then about this "vacuum" and tion of surtax not for the sake of the that we would be reverting to the 1949 residents, but in order to attract more rates. I wonder,, sir, whether I would and wealthy residents, but we under- be in order to move an amendment to stood that it would be put into operation No. 6 as printed on the agenda before at the beginning of the next financial me that for every pound in excess of year, and that the situation would be £2,500 there shall be a charge of one advertised in the meantime. We are penny. seeing certain people in their true The Attorney-General: What do you colours to-day in this haste to try to want to do? rush this through for this year. I have always been very keen on the abolition Mr Radcliffe: I am trying to make it of surtax but rather than see the Court clear that we did not know we would committed to this waste of £85,000, this be reverting to the 1949 rates, and I loss of £85,000, I will vote against the wish to move an amendment that for abolition of surtax altogether. The the printed resolution on 1 (a) where it Commission considered whether it states "For every £ in excess of £2,500 would alter the amount of income at and one penny" we should go back to which surtax would be payable from the words as printed on page 2 of £2,500 to £4,000 a year, and I then pro- agenda No. 1. item No. 6. After what posed that surtax should be abolished, has been said during the debate, it but I would never agree that we should would, I submit, put the position more forego this £85,000 of the public clearly, and I am moving an amendment money for this year when I know it will that "instead of the words 'for every £ not attract a single extra new resident in excess of £2,500 and one penny' there in the next ten months. I am prepared

Surtax to Cease 6th April, 1961. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1323 to gamble, to bet, that if I am asked this The Governor: Gentlemen, we resume time next year how many new residents at item 1 (a) of agenda No. 1, and I have come as a result of our action yes- should like to ask the mover of the terday I shall be told "nil," but I believe amendment if he would be good enough that in two or three years time there to hand in the amendment to the chair will be many, but not in the next few so that I can see the exact terms. It months. You are putting—at least those has in fact been seconded. who support this new resolution are putting—certain members of this Court in a very awkward position, because it Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I would will be inferred that we are supporting like to put forward this suggestion to this for the benefit of existing taxpayers. the Court in order to try and resolve And while I am sure that certain mem- this situation into which we have fallen bers are, you are forcing others into the this morning. I am sure, Your Excel- enemy's camp. You have heard the lency, that any legislation which may views put forward by the hon. member, come before the House of Keys for the Mr Corkhill, by the hon. member, Mr abolition of surtax will be passed. I Kaneen, and by myself. That sir, makes feel certain of that from the assurances three out of fifteen. Three out of fifteen that have been given by the hon. and added on to nine, makes twelve, and member for Ayre, Mr Radcliffe and Mr I am quite sure there are other hon. McFee that they would support it and members who feel the same way. There other members I have spoken to, that are many, many deserving causes in this having had the abolition of surtax Island for £85,000. passed in Tynwald yesterday that the legislation will have enough support to Mr Edward Callister: The old age make it effective. In those circum- pensioners. stances I feel we face merely a division Mr Irving: Yes, the old age in the Court on the date upon which the pensioners. We cannot even afford to decision shall become operative and I spend a couple of thousand pound to have in the past given a great deal of abolish the earnings rule for the pen- thought to the question and I am per- sioners. By this we are playing right fectly satisfied that no real benefit can into the hands of the hon. member for accrue to the Isle of Man before next Douglas North. We are giving strength April and I can see no reason for us to his hand. We are playing right up pressing for the abolition of surtax this his street. He and his colleagues will year, provided we are assured that the convince the people of the Island that decision we made yesterday will be con- we are doing the wrong thing. firmed by legislation. The thing which has worried me chiefly in the past week Mr Edward Callister: And you are. or two was the possibility that Tynwald Mr Irving: We know that is not true might, by narrow majority pass a sir. Let us prove it is not true by resolution which will be publicised accepting the hon. member's amend- over the world and was not con- ment. We can still advertise "no firmed by legislation, and that would surtax." People are not going to stay make us look like fools with the away. business men throughout the world and Mr Corkhill: Prudent people will it would have created damage with men make inquiries first. who might have changed their invest- ments and their homes and prepared to Mr Irving: Exactly sir. move to the Isle of Man. As long as I The Governor: I propose to adjourn feel sure by reason of the support of the Court for lunch gentlemen. We will legislature, I feel we should not advance meet again at 2-30 p.m. the date and in the circumstances I The Court adjourned for luncheon would support the amendment of the and resumed at 2-30 p.m. hon. member for Ayre, Mr Radcliffe, to

Surtax to Cease 6th April, 1961. 1324 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 impose the tax for the current year and it would be fair to them if they knew I would urge that the legislation to con- it was to be abolished but I see no point firm yesterday's decision should be in pressing for abolition straightaway. introduced at the earliest possible moment so that any person throughout Mr J. M. Cain: I have, during the the world sees that we are carrying out lunchtime read two papers in which this what we decided to do yesterday. I matter was announced—the "London think the Court would be well advised Times," which says "Manx Surtax not to sacrifice the total sum of £85,000 Abolished." In the article we have and I do want to clarify that position good and bad publicity and in the other because there has been some argument paper we have "Manx Surtax Goes as to whether it was £35,000 or £85,000. Despite Critics." I think this has gone If we do not impose the tax in the far enough. We have already an- coming year we shall eventually lose nounced that Manx surtax has gone and £85,000 over a period of years but we to go back now I can imagine what the would only lose £35,000 in the current Press will publish to-morrow—that we year. That is the true position but by have abolished surtax and yet we have abolishing income tax in the year not. We are trying to get the 'best of 1960-61 we would in effect be sacrificing both worlds; we want to aboliSh surtax a total of £85,000 and I cannot see that but we want the income this year. It that would benefit the Island as an has been said that a number of people investment. I believe that we are not are willing to come over and make in- giving money away and that it is an quiries this year and there is no doubt investment for the future to the Island there are people who would come this but the investment of this year's tax year if they could find permanent resi- would do no good and I urge the Court dence. I cannot for a moment under- to give serious consideration to the stand the attitude of my vice-chairman, matter and support the hon. member the hon. member for Garff, who is the for Ayre as it seems there is a division instigator of building houses for per- of opinion and I would be sorry if there manent residents and yet he puts up a were a clash over an academic matter tremendous fight against this matter which cannot make any difference to which will bring people over here. One the Island's prosperity in the coming cannot understand what is in the mind year. of a man who wants to build houses for Mr Irving: I wonder if my hon. permanent residents and yet will throw colleague, with his great knowledge of out the thing to get them in. We have income tax and surtax could tell us how committed ourselves to this particular long a new resident has to live on the project and I cannot understand the two Island before paying Manx income tax members of the Commission who and surtax? brought this Report in and then said yesterday that they only wanted this Mr Bolton: A man is liable to pay tax to apply in 1961. They have caused so from the day of his arrival but we are much disruption in this Court because now at the 22nd June and if anybody of an amendment by a member of the got to know of this decision he might Commission. I have never heard so not arrive before Christmas but he much derogatory stuff about the Isle of would only be taxed this year on the Man and stuff that has gone into the portion of the time he lived here and Press to-day. I would not like to it is unlikely he would have to pay repeat what has been said about one of much surtax unless, of course, he had a the members and what good we are large income but if he came in October, going to get from this sort of thing I or November, or December, he would, cannot say but those words are harmful in effect, have to pay more and I think and yesterday's debate and the debate

Surtax to Cease 6th April, 1961. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1325 to-day have not been for the good of of pecuniary interest. I suggest to the Island but they have been very Your Excellency that anyone who is upsetting to those who have the Island going to benefit in the sum of £300 or at heart. We are not putting out our over has a pecuniary interest. best invitation out if we are going to get this sort of publicity and when the Lt.-Cdr. Quine: Can the Attorney- announcement is made that surtax is General answer a question? What is abolished it should be abolished and the objection to going straight to legis- abolished as it was yesterday and here lation and cutting out this 1 d in the £ it is that we have sat for one and a business. half days and done practically nothing. The Governor: I think I should reply Mr Stephen: I know most members of to Mr Callister. This is a matter of the Court are getting a little tired of public policy and if I were to give a the subject but I feel that this is a ruling in the direction he suggested it critical moment in the debate. During could bar hon. members from ever the discussion on the report it was voting on tax questions at all. suggested by the hon. member for Garff, Mr Kerruish, that there had The Attorney-General: It is idle for been political spivery among the me to say that I am other than unhappy members of the Commission. Although about the position we have got ourselves I found myself in a minority I was into to-day. I want hon. members to satisfied that the majority of the Com- appreciate that in my view the ques- mission sincerely believed what they tion of whether or not surtax should be put forward. When I did challenge abolished now was debated yesterday them that the proposal would have the and the decision was reached yesterday effect of relieving surtax payers in the and therefore the resolution which Island the other members did not asso- comes forward to-day should not be a ciate themselves with that idea. The cause of debate. It is simply imple- attitude of the chairman bears out the mentation of what was done yesterday. stand he then took—that the proposals If the Income Tax Commission had were not to convey benefit to surtax contemplated that surtax should be payers living in the Island now. If abolished next year they would have there are any grounds for believing that said so. Mr Irving would have said so this will attract new residents to the and Mr Bolton would have said so. But Island it must be obvious to all of us that they did not. They said, "We therefore its influence cannot be felt this year. recommend the abolition of surtax at But if we go forward this year with the earliest opportunity" and the this token surtax I believe it might have earliest opportunity is now. Legisla- a bad effect when the legislation comes tion will be introduced as soon as forward. The hon. member, Mr Kaneen, possible but in the meantime to imple- suggested it was dishonest. I do not ment what Tynwald has done we have think anyone likes to be associated dealt with the resolution by reducing with anything dishonest and I hope surtax to the nominal figure of id in the the Court will accept the amendment pound. I am concerned with the and try to close our ranks. I am pre- remarks of the hon. member for Douglas pared to say that if the amendment is East, Mr Cain, because I, too, read the carried and we levy surtax on the newspapers at lunchtime. We have got current rates for this year I am pre- to face the fact that as a result of what pared to support the Bill so that surtax we did yesterday the world has accepted will not be levied from the 6th April, that we intend what we did yesterday. 1961. Mr Corkhill: Surely we do not expect Mr Edward Callister: A question, the whole world to read about the Isle Your Excellency. I raised the question of Man.

Surtax to Cease 6th April, 1961. 1326 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

The Attorney-General: Yes. These year. Some of it is over two or three papers go all over the world. The first years. It will be over £35,000—it may words of the articles in the two papers be £70.000, but I cannot give an exact I read are the same— "The Isle of Man figure and I do not thing anyone else has abolished surtax." can. Mr Stephen: If the papers are wrong Lt-Cdr. Qunie: Could I have an that is not our fault. answer to my question why we cannot go direct to legislation and cut out the The Attorney-General: That may be id in the pound? so, but the papers I think are entitled to assume that Tynwald after a full The Attorney-General: On the ques- and careful debate has decided to accept tion of legislation, the passing of the the recommendation of the Commission resolution yesterday means that legisla- to abolish surtax at the earliest oppor- tion should be introduced at the earliest tunity and we are not giving to those possible opportunity and that will be persons who listened to the debates a done, The mandate has been given by fair answer if the next day we say we Tynwald and in anticipation of Tynwald are going to take surtax from persons agreeing to the recommendations of the who come this year. There is not the Commission—I may as well say it— slightest doubt that it will take time. It legislation has already been got. The will take time before we know whether legislation is to repeal certain provi- this venture is good or otherwise but as sions of the Income Tax Act and the the hon. member for Garff said, now is question of how that deals with the the hour when people are looking for a present year is a matter for discussion place to live. While they may not save in the branches. surtax this year they will have come The Governor: I will now put the and that is what we want. If you refer amendment to resolution No, 1 (a) to the Budget statement made by His which reads (as handed to be by the Excellency it relates to the effect this mover) "that for the words 'for every year: £1 in excess of £2,500 and one penny' The abolition of surtax would result in a there shall be substituted the words 'in loss to revenue of £35,000 during the current respect of the excess over £2,500 for financial year. and I am of the opinion that this amount could be made good by a deter- every £1 of the first £500 there shall mined attack on our arrears of income tax, be charged ninepence instead of ten- without further recourse to the Accumulated pence' and then the same figures as Fund. printed on page 2 down to the figures Mr Kerruish: May I ask the Attorney- 75 6d." It would only be the change General a question? It is not correct from tenpence to ninepence to bring the that the total loss will be £85,000, amendment within the ruling I have taking into account the collection of given. arrears in the first year, £35,000, and in The Governor put the amendment succeeding years the balance to make and declared it carried. up £85,000? The Secretary: The hon. member for The Attorney-General: The ultimate Ayre is only dealing with ninepence in loss will be more than £35,000, As the the one place. hon. member rightly says the arrears may extend over one or two or more Mr Radcliffe: Yes. years, but I do not accept £85,000 as The Governor: Well, gentlemen, the being a correct figure. The figure of amendment is carried and we will now £85,000 which was collected in the last proceed to agenda No. 3. financial year is divided into £14,000 of current taxes and £71,000 arrears. That Mr Radcliffe: I hope you will forgive £71,000 is not all arrears from one tax me, sir, but did we vote on the main

Surtax to Cease 6th April, 1961. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22. 1960 1327 res-olution. I only altered one figure Since the Bill was drafted, and during and we have not voted on the main the time the Bill was progressing resolution. through the branches, another Bill was The Governor: Thank you very much. passing through the branches which I omitted to put the original resolution repealed the Inheritance Provisions Act, as amended. 1949. We did not want to repeal it twice, so we want to agree to delete the The Governor put the amended reference to the 1939 Act in the Second resolution and declared it carried. Schedule of the Administration of Estates Act as the reference to it is no longer necessary. PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT The Administration of Estates Bill The Governor: I have the honour was re-signed. to day before the Court as on agenda No. 3:— Lhen Moar and Killane Drainage ANNOUNCEMENT OF ROYAL District Order, 1960. ASSENT TO ACTS Registration Council of Builders and The Governor: Now, item No. 3. I Workmen Constitution and Regulations, have the honour to announce to Tyn- 1960. wald in accordance with the terms of Entertainments Duty Order, 1960. Section 2 of the Acts of Tynwald (Government Circular No. 31-60.) (Emergency Promulgation) Act. 1916, that the Royal Assent was given to the Sixth Interim Report of the Income following Act on the 8th April. 1960— Tax Commission. the Recreational Charities (Isle of Man) Summarised Accounts and Public Acts on the 14th May, 1960—Summary Auditors' Report of the Hospital Jurisdiction Act, 1960; Mental Diseases Management Committees of the Isle of Act, 1960; Local Government (Ferries) Man for the year ended 31st March, Act, 1960; Pensions (Increase) Act, 1958. 1960; and to the following Act on Summarised Accounts and Public the 7th June,. 1960, the European Free Auditors' Report of the Isle of Man Trade Association (Isle of Man) Act, Highway and Transport Board for the 1960. year ended 31st March, 1959. Report and Accounts of the Isle of Man Rifle Association for the year SOUND BARRIER—QUESTION BY ended 31st August, 1959. MR KERRUISH We will now, gentlemen, deal with the question paper. I call on the hon. ADMINISTRATION OF ESTATES Member for Garff, Mr Kerruish. BILL FOR RE-SIGNATURE Mr Kerruish: Your Excellency, I beg The Governor: Item No. 2 on agenda leave to ask the question standing in No. 2, the Administration of Estates my name: (1) If Your Excellency is Bill for re-signature. aware of the growing public concern Attorney-General: I think I ought to at the frequent breaking of the sound point out there is a reason why this barrier by aircraft over the Island? (2) Bill has to be re-signed. When the Bill If Your Excellency will take steps to was drafted and when the Bill was mitigate this nuisance? being considered by the branches, the The Governor: My reply to the hon. Schedule to the Bill included the repeal member in questions (1) and (2) is: (1) of the Inheritance Provisions Act„ 1939. I am aware of the occasional nuisance

Papers Laid Before the Court—Administration of Estates Bill for Re-Signature. —Announcement of Royal Assent to Acts.—Sound Barrier—Question by Mr Kerruish. 1328 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 caused to the public by aircraft break- Mr Simcocks: I beg to ask the chair- ing the sound barrier and the general man of the Water Board the question concern about the volume of noise in standing in my name: Whereas on the this day and age. (2) Representations 12th day of April, 1960, during the reply have been made to the United Kingdom to the debate on the Board's Estimates Government about the bangs which in Tynwald, the chairman stated that have been made and I have been in- he was unaware of an offer by the formed that the trouble has arisen from Douglas Corporation to supply the aircraft under development for the Water Board with 400,000 gallons of Ministry of Supply. I understand that water a day and that the chairman had for technical reasons it has been inevit- asked the Town Clerk of Douglas able that supersonic aircraft have had whether a letter had been sent, and to fly within a restricted radius round that the Town Clerk knew nothing at all the airfield from which they operate about it. Is the chairman of the Board The area of sea within this radius aware that a letter, dated the 23rd day has been comparatively small, making it of September, 1959, from the •Town extremely difficult to confine the bang Clerk to the Secretary of the Local effect to the sea area. In addition to Government Board contained the fol- their regrets for the disturbances, an lowing passage: "The Corporation have assurance has been given by the Minis- already agreed to supply the Water try that every precaution is taken to Board with the amount of water sug- minimise the disturbance to the public. gested by Mr Spens (namely, 400,000 Tne flights are restricted to the mini- gallons per day)"? mum essential to the development pro- gramme. I have also been informed Mr A. J. Teare, the chairman of the that in the area over which these high- Isle of Man Water-Board answered: "In speed aircraft operate all supersonic reply to the hon. member the answer to flights will be carried out over the sea. his question is "Yes." There is the I shall continue to observe the incidence letter from the Town Clerk to the Secre- of sonic bangs and shall again take up tary of the Local Government Board— the matter with the United Kingdom not to the Water Board—in which the authorities if there is any further dis- passage quoted by the hon. member turbance. occurs. But it is difficult to present a Mr Kerruish: Thank you, sir. true picture of the situation by quoting an isolated sentence from a letter with- Mr Radcliffe: May I ask a supplemen- out filling in the background. And I tary question, sir? There is the ques- hope the Court will grant me the indul- tion of aerial photography. These air gence of a personal explanation which flights take place in the late evening. should help to clarify the position. On the other evening one took place at There were two offers of water by the 12-45—nearly 1 a.m. I think 11 p.m. Corporation; the first was not made is reasonable, Your Excellency, but directly to the Water Board and was a when these flights take place late at long-term offer based on conditions. night, they are waking people up, The second was an immediate and tem- porary offer made directly to the Board and was made without conditions. The fact that there were two offers may WATER SUPPLIES—QUESTION BY have led to some misunderstanding on MR SIMCOCKS my part as to which offer was being The Governor: I am certainly pre- referred to. The first offer arose as a pared to look further into this matter. result of the Spens Report. The Cor- It has engaged my attention already, poration were invited by the Local however. I now call on the hon. Government Board to forward their member for Rushen, Mr Simcocks. observation on the Report. The Cor-

Water Supplies—Question by Mr Simcocks. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1329 poration recommendations, after ap- time I could let you have up to 300,000 proval by the full Council on the 12th gallons per day, if you are able to take February, 1958, were subsequently sent it." After a discussion with my own to the Local Government Board. Their Engineer as to the maximum quantity recommendation (1) stated that Mr we could take into supply by reason of Spens and the Corporation Water the limitations imposed by our present Engineer were both of the opinion that mains system, I interpreted this offer as the Corporation could afford to supply being an effective one, from the Water up to 400,000 gallons per day to the Board point of view, of up to 200,000 Water Board's area, provided that the gallons daily. I, therefore, had 200,000 safeguards mentioned in the Corpora- gallons per day at the back of my mind. tion Water Engineer's report were com- The letter concluded by saying that as plied with. These safeguards included the West Baldwin reservoir was being a condition that the compensation water emptied (if the weather conditions liability of the Corporation should be proved favourable) at the end of Sep- reduced to 250,000 gallons per day. The tember, from then on the writer would Corporation later wrote to the Local not be able to let the Water Board have Government Board on the 23rd Septem- any water for some weeks. It will be ber, 1959, and, in referring to their noted that this second offer was an recommendation (1) stated—as quoted immediate one, it was unconditional by the hon. member—that "the Corpora- but was of a temporary nature. The tion have already agreed to supply the hon. member when referring in Tyn- Water Board with the amount of water wald to the offer of water by the Cor- suggested by Mr Spens, namely 400,000 poration to the Water Board on a gallons per day." This letter was previous occasion (the 20th October, therefore simply a restatement of the 1959) stated that the Board was given position to the Local Government an unconditional offer in writing of the Board and carried with it the condition water and,. later, on the occasion of the above referred to. I should emphasise 12th April, 1960, debate he stated that that the Corporation at no time made last summer, when the South was this offer directly to the Water Board, severely rationed the Corporation or made it an open and unconditional offered the Board 400,000 gallons per one, despite the apparently unequivocal day. In view of the way in which the sentence which occurs in the Corpora- hon. member expressed himself in these tion's letter to the Local Government references, I was under the impression Board. And before the Water Board that it was to the second and uncondi- could actually collect this water, offered tional offer he was alluding, which in on a long-term basis, it would become my mind I had treated as an offer of necessary for the Board to carry out the 200,000 gallons per day. I, therefore, capital works of laying new mains esti- felt justified in denying that there was mated to cost in the initial stages some any offer to the Board of 400,000 gallons £300,000. The second offer was of a per, day of an unconditional nature. different nature. It arose from the fact This is factually correct, because no that the Corporation Water Engineer offer was made to the Board directly of had decided to empty the West Baldwin this quaitity of water; and the offer reservoir at the end of September, 1959. made to the Local Government Board And on the 26th August, 1959, the was conditional. I regret it if my Corporation Engineer wrote directly to remarks or answers on previous occa- the Engineer of the Water Board sions have led to any misunderstanding. saying, "I see in the local Press that I hope both the hon. member and this you are having some difficulty in meet- hon. Court will accept my assurance ing your demands in the South and the that I had no intention in any way of West. He continued: "At the present misleading him or the Court.

.Water Supplies—Question by Mr Simcocks. 1330 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, I wish made an unconditional offer of 400,000 to thank the hon. member and I gallons a day. I had not heard of it and, entirely accept his assurance, but I after the Court, I went to the Board feel that this answer has entirely offices and asked had such a letter been justified the line of inquiry I had been received and I was told "No." I then pursuing. went to the Town Clerk and asked had Mr Kaneen: I would like to ask a he seen such a letter and he said "No." supplementary question if I may. The It was the Secretary of the Local question states "he was unaware of an Government Board who had it. offer by the Douglas Corporation to Mr Kaneen: A lack of co-operation supply the Water Board with 400,000 between the Water Board and the Local gallons of water a day and that the Government Board. chairman had asked the Town Clerk of Douglas whether a letter had been sent The Governor: The hon. member for and that the Town Clerk knew nothing Garff's question. about it." I have been through the files Mr A. J. Teare: Yes. The hon. mem- of the Town Clerk and there is nothing ber for Garff asked about the water of that nature. He never denied there situation. It is about on a level with was an offer,. which you yourself have last year and there is very little fluctua- said and it was confirmed by the Coun- tion. cil in February, 1958. Whether it was made to the Water Board or the Local Mr McFee: He knows the answer. He Government Board does not matter, but has had his scouts out. the statement was definitely made and Mr A. J. Teare: Regarding the hon. I think that all along the Corporation member for Castletown, he is right that have been most co-operative as they it would be impossible to take 400,000 possibly could be. gallons because I have already ex- plained that to takd that amount of Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, I water it means laying a very expensive should like to ask a supplementary main at Richmond Hill. question. Is it not true to say the hon. chairman of the Water Board—even if Mr Radcliffe: Your Excellency, could the Douglas Corporation did indeed I ask a supplementary? The chairman offer 400,000 gallons—that he would find stated he had received a communica- it an impossibility to take that water to tion from the Douglas Water Depart- the South? ment offering 200,000 gallons following newspaper reports. Could he assure the Members: At the moment. Court, in view of the serious nature of Lt.-Cdr. Quine: I should like to ask a the water supplies in the South that he supplementary question. May I ask the will make every effort in obtaining chairman of the Water Board are his every amount of water necessary. stocks of water better this year than Mr Corkhill: I have heard of the they were last year at the same time. terrific expense of taking water from Are they better now, or the same? • this end of the country to the South. The Governor: I cannot allow that Members: Speech! because it does not appear relevant to Mr Corkhill: May I ask the chairman the question. if every avenue has been explored in Mr A. J. Teare: I could give the the South to conserve a little more answer. water at the beginning of the season. I The Governor: I have no objection. feel this matter Mr A. J. Teare: When Mr Simcocks Members: Speech! mentioned this matter in Tynwald I The Governor: I must rule you out of understood that the Corporation had not order,

Water Supplies—Question by Mr Simcocks. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1331

Mr A. J. Teare: In reply to the hon. will the Board reconsider their "loss to member for Ayre, Tynwald, at a pre- understand how a minimum price can vious session provided the money to be assured to the fishermen without take those steps of meeting a water involving subsides which are not forth- shortage. coming in England"? Mr Radcliffe: I asked if the chairman Mr Farrant: May it please Your was satisfied there is co-operation with Excellency, at a meeting of the Board the Corporation or that they offered of Agriculture and Fisheries, held on water following upon newspaper the 8th June, 1960, by Board came to reports. the conclusions set out in (a), (b) and (c) of the questions addressed to me. Mr A. J. Teare: The position was this, These conclusions were communicated that we were short of water in the to Mr J. W. W. Hyde, advocate for South and that we had taken steps to several fishermen interested in escallop conserve the water. We did not want fishing, on the 10th June. On the 9th to cause any panic by publishing it in June,. along with the Secretary of the the Press and we turned down the stop- Board, I had an opportunity, at the cocks so that the housewife if she went request of His Excellency, of discussing to the tap with a kettle and there was the whole question of escallop fishing sufficient in, as much as she wanted, she with His Excellency in Executive turned the tap off and we saved water. Council. I now propose to inform my All these things went On and we did not Board of the matters discussed at that turn the supplies off until a late hour to meeting. It must be borne in mind conserve the water as best as possible that practically all escallop beds are so as not to inconvenience the visitors • outside territorial waters and therefore and then we had to turn the water off beyond the control of the Board and the altogether at night. We did not have Government of the Isle of Man. To communications ourselves because those prohibit the landing in the Isle of Man communications were passing between of escallops caught outside Manx terri- the Corporation and the Local Govern- torial waters might well cause those ment Board. escallops to be landed in the United Kingdom, in the Irish Republic or direct to the Continent which would be to the detriment of the Manx fishing ESCALLOP FISHING—QUESTION BY industry. The Board has not received Mr EDWARD CALLISTER any information which would justify a Mr Edward Callister asked the chair- recommendation to His Excellency that man of the Board of Agriculture a subsidy should be voted by Tynwald and Fisheries the following question: to maintain a guaranteed minimum Apropos the Board's letter of the 10th price for escallops. There are no sub- June, 1960, to the advocate for the Isle sidies in the United Kingdom for shell of Man Fisherman's Association con- fish. cerning escallop fishing, what imme- Mr Edward Callister: Thank you. diate steps have been taken, or are being contemplated to implement the Board's agreements (a) "The Board is agreed that the licensing of boats GLEN MONA SEWERAGE SCHEME— should be undertaken"; (b) "The QUESTION BY MR H. C. Board is agreed that there should be KERRUISH no fishing for escallops inside terri- Mr H. C. Kerruish asked the vice- torial waters between the 1st June and chairman of the Local Government the 31st October in any year"; (c) Board the following question: (1) The "That the minimum size for any escal- original estimated date of completion lop landings should be 44- inches." Also of the Glen Mona Sewerage Scheme; (2)

Escallop Fishing—Question by Mr Edward Callister.—Glen Mona Sewerage— Question by Mr H. C. Kerruish. 1332 'TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

If the work may be expected to be com- DANGEROUS SURFACE ON pleted by that date; (3) If not, what is DOUGLAS-LAXEY ROAD— the cause of the delay? QUESTION BY MR KERRUISH Mr Kerruish asked the chairman of Lt.-Cdr. Quine: Your Excellency, in the Highway and Transport Board the reply to the hon. member for Garff, Mr following question (1) Is he aware of Kerruish, the answer to question (1) is the dangerous condition of the surface 31st May, 1960; the answer to question of the main Douglas-Laxey road be- (2) is No—(laughter)—and the answer tween the Queen's Hotel and the South to the third part—what is the cause of Cape, Laxey; (2) What action is the the delay. The delay in commencing Board taking about this section of the the work was due, firstly, because of the road? difficulty in finding out the actual owner The Governor: Could the vice-chair- of the site on which the disposal works man answer the question:— were to be constructed and, secondly, because of the difficulty in obtaining the Mr McFee: I have not the reply to signature of the owner to the deed of this question but I can assure the hon. conveyance. There had to be carried member that the Surveyor will have out an involved search into the title this matter in hand and will report to the Board immediately and if it is as is since there was in existence only a pos- alleged to be dangerous I am quite cer- sessory title, and there was a lack of tain that steps will already have been information concerning children of a taken to remove the danger. marriage and an heiress-at-law. The longest delay, however, was due to a Mr Kerruish: I am grateful to the difficulty in obtaining a settlement of hon. member for his reply and would say, sir, I am delighted with the action the purchase of the site for the works. the Highway Board have taken in res- Numerous letters were written to the ponse to this question as the work is agent for the owner requesting the nearing completion. (Laughter.) They execution of the legal documents. The started the work immediately the ques- first letter was sent on the 9th March, tion was tabled. 1960, but the documents were not Mr Nivison: It is only fair to say, sir.. signed and returned until May 3st, 1960. that the dangerous condition of the road In the meantime the contractor had was caused by drainage pipes being laid completed so much of the work as he by another Board by which reconstitu- could and, because of the delay in tion should have been made and they settling the purchase of the site for the did not do so and the Highway Board works, he withdrew his workmen from have come forward. off the site and employed them on another job. Every effort will be made to get the contractor to resume work on the scheme at the earliest possible date. SALARIES OF INSULAR CIVIL SERVICE—QUESTION BY Mr Kerruish: As a supplementary, MR A. J. TEARE Your Excellency, could he now give the The Governor: Question No. 6. estimated date of the completion of the work in view of the fact that there are Mr A. J. Teare: I beg to ask the other schemes involved, such as the question standing in my name: Has any Dhoon School sewerage scheme. step been taken by the House of Keys to implement the recommendation of Lt.-Cdr, Quine: No, sir. I am not in the arbitrator with regard to the a position to give the answer to that salaries of the Insular Civil Service? question at the moment. If not, when will such step be taken?

Dangerous Surface on Douglas-Laxey Road—Question by Mr H. C. Kerruish.- Salaries of Insular Civil Service—Question by Mr A. J. Teare • 77

TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1333

The Speaker: The answer to the hon. in that. It is a tribunal set up to advise member of the Council is yes. A step His Excellency and if His Excellency has been taken. The Finance and Con- accepts the recommendations he passes sultative Committee of the Keys has them to the branches to be considered considered the recommendations of the in private. If they agree, His Excel- Arbitration Tribunal and the matter lency puts it into operation. If the will be further considered by the House branches do not agree it is debated in at an early date, probably on Tuesday. public in Tynwald. The recommenda- tion was signed by Mr Honeyman, Mr Mr Kaneen: As the hon. member of Garside and Mr Stowell on May 20th. It the Council, Mr Teare, is a member of was sent to the members of the Finance the Whitley Council, is it appropriate and Consultative Committee of the Keys that he should ask this question? on May 26th. The Governor: The answer to that is Mr McFee: Why do they want it? that the question has been permitted. The Speaker: Because that is the Mr A. J. Teare: Delays such as this custom. Everything is sent to the are the cause of a lot of industrial Secretary of the House to bring before trouble on the mainland. the House. That is one of several The Speaker: I think that remark matters the Committee were asked to raises another question. There has consider and bring before the House been no delay on the part of the House and it was indicated that part of our of Keys. next sitting will be in private to deal with certain matters and this is one of Mr McFee: I was going to ask a them. similar type of question. What is the procedure laid down in regulations to Mr McFee: I am not satisfied because deal with this arbitration? Normally I do not think the findings of a tribunal when an arbitration is held both parties is a matter which needs any preparation are informed of the findings of the arbi- at the hands of the Finance and Consul- trator. I understand on this occasion tative Committee of the Keys. It one side received immediate informa- should come direct to the Keys. We are tion and the Keys have not yet been getting it after a month. informed except by a confidential note, This causes suspicion in the minds of those concerned in the arbitration. VOTES TO BOARDS OF TYNWALD Sir Ralph Stevenson: The agreement AGREED EN BLOC lays down that the tribunal makes The Governor: That concludes the recommendations to His Excellency. If question stage. We will go on to agenda they are accepted by His Excellency No. 2. I consider it is a very laborious they are referred to the branches. If way to deal with these matters again they are accepted by the branches in before the Court as they were dealt with private they become applicable. But if before and in my opinion one combined they are not accepted by either branch resolution should be presented to Tyn- they are debated in public in Tynwald. wald in which the estimates of the At the moment I understand this has Boards are given in total only and then been accepted by one of the branches the Court be invited to vote the money, and the decision of the other branch is including item 43, which relates to sums awaited. to be taken from the Accumulated Mr McFee: When was the arbitra- Fund. I do not know if the Court would tion award made? be inclined to take these votes en bloc. The Speaker:` I think I can help the Mr Colebourn: I would like to address hon. member. It is not an arbitration Your Excellency on item 14—Civil award. You have got to be very careful Defence.

Votes to Boards of Tynwald Agreed En Bloc. 1334 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

The following resolutions (1 to 13) the purpose of defraying the expenses of the were agreed:— Government Analyst's and Weights and Measures Departments. EXECUTIVE GOVERNMENT Such sum to include the sum of £1,300 That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. authorised to pply from the current revenue POLICE SERVICE of this Isle dining the year ending 31st March, 1961, a sum not exceeding £29,400 for the That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be purpose of defraying the expenses of Execu- authorised to apply from the current revenue tive Government. of this Isle during the year ending 31st Such sum to include the sum of £7,500 March, 1961. a sum not exceeding £113,444 voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the Police Service, including payment of pen- ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE sions to former Police officers and their That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be dependants. authorised to apply from the current revenue Such sum to include the sum of £27,600 of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. 1961, a sum not exceeding £22,620 for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the PRISON SERVICE Administration of Justice. That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Such sum to include the sum of £7,000 authorised to apply from the current revenue voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. of this Isle during the year ending 31st March. 1961. a sum not exceeding £7,200 for the pur- INCOME TAX DEPARTMENT pose of defraying the expenses of the Prison That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Service. authorised to apply from the current revenue Such sum to include the sum of £1,700 of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. 1961, a sum not exceeding £18,700 for the purpose of defraying • the expenses of the CUSTOMS SERVICE Income Tax Department. That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Such sum to include the sum of £6,000 authorised to apply from the current revenue voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. of this Isle during the year ending 31st March. 1961, a sum not exceeding £1,250 for the EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGE purpose of defraying the expenditure of the That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Customs Service incurred within the Isle of authorised to apply from the current revenue Man: of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, Such sum to include the sum of £100 voted 1961, a sum not exceeding £15,150 for the by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1969. purpose of defraying the expenditure to be incurred in connection with the following PENSIONS AND ALLOWANCES services— That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be a) Expenses of the Employment authorised to apply from the current revenue Exchange £10,700 of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, (b) Building Trades Council 850 1961, a sum not exceeding £5,480 for the (c) National Service (Armed Forces) purpose of defraying the Pensions and Act 750 Allowances payable to former Government (d) Disabled Persons (Employment) employees and the dependants of former Act 750 Government employees. te) Assistance for persons entering Such sum to include the sum of £2,000 employment in the United King- voted by Tynwald on the 15th March. 1960. dom 450 EXPENSES OF LEGISLATURE (f) Vocational Training Scheme 500 That the Treasurer of the Isle of Maan be (g) Training of Youths for Merchant Navy authorised to apply from the current revenue 150 of this Isle a sum not exceeding £30,000 for (h) Training Allowances Scheme 1,000 the purpose of defraying during the year ending 31st March, 1961, the expenses of the £15,150 Legislature. Such sum to include the sum of £10.000 Such sum to include the sum of £4.000 voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. GOVERNMENT ANALYST'S AND WEIGHTS ISLE OF MAN BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND MEASURES DEPARTMENTS AND FISHERIES That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to apply from the current revenue authorised to apply— of this Isle during the year ending 31st (i) From the current revenue of this Isle. March, 1961. a sum not exceeding £4,065 for during the year ending 31st March. 1961, a

Votes to Boards of Tynwald Agreed En Bloc. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1335

sum not exceeding £444,225 for the purpose 1961, a sum not exceeding £156,818 towards of defraying the expenditure to be incurred the expenses of the Isle of Man Airports in connection with the following services:- Board, made up as follows:- (a) Salaries and Administrative Ex- Running Expenses £54,140 penses £11.400 Loan Charges 9,178 (b) Agricultural Education and Pub- Fire and Rescue Equipment Garage 2,500 licity 3,000 Development of Runway 22/04 91,000 (c) Collection of Agricultural Returns 50 £156,818 (d) Diseases of Animals (Prevention) Act 14,300 Such sum to include the sum of £12,500 (e) Agricultural Marketing Act 400 voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. (f) Agricultural and Rural Indus- In addition the Airports Board may spend a tries Act 800 sum not exceeding £31.115 from direct (g) Agricultural Wages (Regulation) receipts. Act 400 ISLE OF MAN ASSESSMENT BOARD (h) Grant to Liverpool University re "William Herdman" 500 That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be (i) Grant in aid of Milk Recording 500 authorised to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, (j) Improvement of Livestock 2,500 1961, a sum not exceeding £2,500 for the (k) Improvement of Gr assland purpose of defraying the expenses of the Scheme 32,000 Assessment Board. (1) Fatstock Headage Payment 30,000 Such sum to include the sum of £1,500 (m) Provision of Lime and other voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. Fertilisers 60,000 In addition the Assessment Board may (n) Agricultural Drainage and Hedg- spend a sum not exceeding £2,285 from direct ing Schemes 10,000 receipts. (o) Extermination of Agricultural Pests 125 The Speaker: I would like to ask if (p) Cattle Rearing Subsidy Scheme 5,000 the amounts we are voting are the same (q) Calf Rearing Subsidy Scheme 35,000 (r) Mixed Crop, Barley and Wheat amounts as those which were put for- (Deficiency) Payments Scheme 20,000 ward by the Boards in their estimates (s) Guaranteed Price for Wool 10,000 or if any variation has been made by (t) Oats ( Deficiency Payments) His Excellency. Scheme 62,000 (u) Marketing of Milk 2,000 The Governor: A change has been (v) Guaranteed Payment for Fatstock 130,000 made in the expenses of the Legislature (w) Fatstock Grading Expenses 3,250 -it has been increased to £3,000. (x) Fisheries 6,000 (y) White Fish and Herring Subsidy Mr Farrant: With regard to the esti- Scheme 5,000 mates of the Board of Agriculture a reduction of the amount of £5,000 has £444,225 been made as an outcome of a decision • Such sum to include the sum of £60,000 of H.M. Government to reimburse the voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. Treasurer of the Isle of Man with the (ii) From the funds standing to the credit amount of the subsidies payable for of the Isle of Man Accumulated Fund, a sum herring landings at Peel by boats regis- not exceeding £16,000 to defray the expendi- tered in United Kingdom ports. It is ture incurred in the following services:- estimated this will be about £5,000 and (a) Grants and Loans to Fishermen £10,000 the Court will appreciate it will be (b) Agricultural Credits Acts 5,000 Silo Subsidy Scheme 1,000 necessary to pay the boats out of Manx (c) revenue and then collect it in total from £16,000 the appropriate Imperial authority at the end of the season. This is the Such sum to include the sum of £7,500 arrangement which the deputation con- voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. sisting of the Attorney-General, the ISLE OF MAN AIRPORTS BOARD secretary of the Board and myself to the That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to apply from the current revenue Fleck Committee strongly recom- of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, mended.

Votes to Boards of Tynwald Agreed En Bloc. 1336 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

Mr Gale: I would like to ask a ques- Mr A. J. Teare: There is a new item tion — that serious consideration be (h) training allowances scheme. There given by the Board of Agriculture to the are two schemes for the training of breeding of Manx cats at Knockaloe. young men but (h) is a new scheme to The number of Manx cats is getting enable boys to take a five years' appren- lower and lower and I ask seriously that consideration be given to this, and when ticeship in industry which is not avail- visitors go to Knockaloe I think the able on the Island. It is provision for chairman will agree nothing would financial assistance. It will be neces- create more interest than Manx cats. sary to give that assistance to make wages up to the amount provided for Mr Farrant: It is not such a frivolous and travel allowances. It may operate question as the Court might think. Two for two or three years, but after three yearse ago there was a large conference years they should no longer need assist- of the Veterinary Association in the ance. I hope to see the day when that Island and we put on a show to interest £1,000 will be more like £5,000 and to the wives of the vets who were there. We put a show on of Manx products— see boys coming forward like they we had kippers, Manx carpets, honey, should do to take these opportunities. Loughtins and Manx cats. These cats We have had these training schemes were provided by various breeders in printed and I was going to suggest that the Island and were very beautiful. with the co-operation of the Education They really stole the show. We could Authority the manager of the Employ- have sold these cats, every one of them ment Exchange might be allowed to for very large prices. I would not like visit various secondary schools in mid- to see the Manx cats go out of existence. term and get the boys together and How it should be tackled I do not know, explain the advantages of this scheme; but we will consider it. I have just had find out whether the boys are leaving at some information which will interest 15 years or continuing to sixteen and the Court. In the stock judging com- then ask them "What do you intend to petition in the Royal Highland Show do?" The boys could be given some idea to-day the Island succeeded in gaining of the opportunities which were offered. third place. Ulster was first, the Scot- Mr Lace is in constant touch with the tish team second, England fourth, New Ministry of Labour and I visited many Zealand fifth, Wales sixth, Republic of places three years ago, and I do not like Ireland seventh and Australia eighth. to think of the future of our boys here I think that is very commendable for with nothing before them beyond work- the Island. ing for the Highway Board and digging holes. We are spending £600,00 a year Mr Edward Callister: I would like to on the education of our young people, ask the chairman of the Board of Agri- and we are giving them the finest edu- culture about this £5,000 for the white cation possible. We know we cannot fish and herring subsidy. Is there a keep them at home, but that opportuni- single Manx boat fishing for herring ties exist for them across the water, and from the Island? There are two gentle- I hope the boys will take advantage of men who are dead but they won't lie the assistance which is to be offered down—the admiral and vice-admiral of them and that we will get the requisite the herring fleet. It is a misnomer if facilities from the Education Authority. we have not got a herring fleet. We might also meet the parents and encourage them to urge the boys on. Mr Farrant: I am not aware that there That would also be worthwhile. is any Manx boat fishing. The only one fishing is registered in England with an Mr Stephen: Just a few words on our English registration. procedure, Your Excellency. I am not The Governor: We will go back to raising any objection to the course you item 4. have followed, but I think we might get

Votes to Boards of Tynwald Agreed En Bloc. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1337 ourselves muddled. I take it that in chairman of the Commission tell us drawing up future agendas you will re- what it is that we shall have to do in arrange them so that we shall know the event of nuclear fall-out. what we are doing. Mr Stephen: Could I interrupt at this The Governor: Yes, they will be com- stage, Your Excellency, and suggest pletely different, but we are dealing that the hon. member for Castletown with Nos. 1 to 13 now. The hon. mem- should continue his speech after we ber for Garff, I think raised a question, have had tea. but tea is ready. Shall we adjourn now The Governor: Yes, the Court will or listen to the hon. member for Castle- now adjourn for a brief fifteen minutes town, Mr Colebourn, who wants to ask for tea. a question on No. 14. Civil Defence. Shall we hear him or adjourn for tea? The Court adjourned for tea and later resumed. It was decided to hear Mr Colebourn. Mr Colebourn: Well, sir, we have cer- tainly been defending the wealthy few CIVIL DEFENCE COMMISSION civilians to-day, but I see we are think- —VOTE OF £16,326. ing of spending £15,500 on Civil Defence in the coming year and I would The Governor: Item 14, gentlemen, like to know what we are getting for the Civil Defence Commission. I call on this close-on £16,000 . What we are con- the hon. chairman, Mr Coole. cerned about is, I take it, "fall-out." Mr Coole: Your Excellency Mr Edward Callister: And the roof is Mr Colebourn: I hadn't actually still off the garage! (Laughter.) finished, Your Excellency. Mr Colebourn: I want to know if "fall- The Governor: I am so sorry. out" occurs some miles out to sea what Mr Colebourn: Dealing, sir, with the do we do? We know nothing at all sum of £16,500, I don't like criticising about it. without being constructive. I think that all we can be concerned with is the Mr Coole: And you have never defence we are trying to put up against attempted to find out. nuclear fall-out. I don't think we need Mr Colebourn: As it so happens I do be concerned very much with a direct know myself. I am alright. I'm alright hit—our main concern must" be with Jack—(laughter)—and also I notice nuclear fall-out. I see no reason what- that another member of the Court is ever, sir, for radio equipment in vans. alright. He, like me, has made adequate None whatever. I think what we need provision. He has sunk a well, and I is information. The public should have have done the same. information, and that is something they have not got. I read as much as I can Mr Nivison: You will be able to keep and I have never seen a single word or cool! announcement in the local Press—which Mr Colebourn: We have heard an is where one would expect to find it— awful lot about the alleged wealthy about what we should do. All that is civilians, but I think this £16,000 would necessary is information for the public be better spent on the old age pensioners before nuclear fall-out. I wonder, sir, than spending it on people who gallivant if any of our farmers here in this Court round in Civil Defence uniforms. (Dis- have any idea what they should do. I sent.) I want to know what happens wonder if any member, including those when we have a nuclear fall-out. I on the Civil Defence Commission, know think there should be notices in the what they should do if there is nuclear newspapers. Nobody at present knows fall-out. what to do and I would like to hear the Lt.-Cdr. Quine: I know what to do.

Civil Defence Commission—Vote of £16,326, 1338 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

Mr Colebourn: I doubt very much if remember that we are being prepared in they know. I would like to know too, this Island, and if this Court does not sir, what is the radio frequency of want Civil Defence, then vote against nuclear fall-out radiation. I think that this resolution. If you are so strong is a reasonable question which I expect about it vote against. I feel that the the chairman certainly—or one of the money is being well spent, and I don't Commissioners—to be able to answer think this is the place to ridicule people for me. All we require is to go round who are trying to help you, the hon. one or two of the firms who use loud- member, Mr Colebourn, and other members of this Court. In the event of speaker vans to have them in readiness fall-out, you will look to the Civil to go round and inform the public to Defence for help, and you will receive remain indoors. it. If the members of this Court feel Mr Corkhill: And then what is going strongly about this small matter of to happen? money, then let them vote against it. Mr Gale: So you do know, do you? Mr Corkhill: I do join hands to some Mr Colebourn: Yes, I know what to extent with Civil Defence, Your Excel- do. All you want is to remain in the lency. It is a very difficult matter to house and have a reasonable amount of know what approach should be made, water free from contamination. We are and it reminds me of the Airports not dealing with bamboo huts, but with Board. They feel that they give stone walls and plate glass, and those adequate protection against fire on are as good a protection as anything planes and the chances of fire breaking against nuclear radiation. In my out are regarded as small, but we read opinion there is no justification what- about the number of fires involving ever for all this,' which I would call— planes, despite all these precautions with all due respect—"tem-foolery." that are taken. I think the Civil Defence is really necessary to give assistance in Mr Nivison: Tom Coolery? (Laughter) the event of any fall-out. Mr Stephen: That's the best joke of the day. Mr Coole: Your Excellency, in reply to the hon. member for Castletown—and Mr Colebourn: I would say that in all by the way, I wish to thank the member seriousness, if this money was spent on of the Commission, Mr Gale, and Mr the old age pensioners it would provide Corkhill for the support they have given a far better defence for civilians than to Civil Defence—I think the hon. mem- this Commission. ber for Castletown has, this afternoon, Mr Gale: Your Excellency, I cannot given the Civil Defence of this Island let this pass without saying something the finest publicity we could ever wish before my chairman gets up to reply. I for which would have cost us a lot of think it is a great pity that Your Excel- money in advertisements to get the lency did not appoint the hon. member same effect. Your Excellency, the Civil for Castletown to the Commission in- Defence Commission have had public stead of myself. I think he would have meetings throughout the Island, includ- been a great asset there. During the ing one with the Ballasalla Commis- short time I have been a member of this sioners and including Castletown, where Commission, I have been impressed by we have three classes running every the work that goes on, and has gone on week through the winter for the train- in the past. Having had the privilege of ing of Civil Defence personnel. We have going across the water and meeting also had advertisements in the paper these people in Civil Defence, not only and competitions at Homefield and, on in Lancashire but also at the Home every occasion, I have invited the Office, I am sorry that the money vote general public to come to Homefield and is not doubled. Hon. members should receive whatever information they

.01.4 Civil Defence Commission—Vote of £16,326, TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1339

would like with regard to Civil Defence Island. As the hon. chairman of the on any subject. Lots of people in the Board of Agriculture knows, and the Douglas area have taken advantage of members of his Board, we in the Civil it and I am sorry to say that Mr Cole- Defence have kept in constant touch bourn has not even been up there to with them, not yesterday or the day enquire through our headquarters what before, but for the last two or three is happening with regard to Civil rm.rs, informing them of the seriousness .Defence. If the hon. member for Castle- of fall-out on the farming industry of town had taken advantage of the adver- the Island, and he went so far as to give tisements in the paper that a competi- the Civil Defence Officer permission to tion was being held in the Drill Hall on write two pages to be inserted in the May 22nd he would have seen 250 per- agricultural booklet published once a sonnel taking part in the competition year or half-yearly to the farmers, tell- and being examined by 16 senior officers ing them what was likely to happen in from the Lancashire Division who, when the event of a fall-out, and we appealed making their report, Said that the per- to the farmers of the Island to join the sonnel of the Island were of a higher Civil Defence so that they would know standard than anywhere in the north of what to do with the cattle and sheep England and who could compete in any and what would happen to their grazing competition in England and get good land and water. We have had a fair results. With regard to the fall-out we response and I admit that some of them are senior wardens and doing a good have four R.O.C. posts on the Island to job, and I do not see why the hon. report fall-out in this district which they send across the water to Preston where member for Castletown should make such remarks. The farmers have been the scientific men are gathered for the advised over two years ago on the N.W. area, and we are informed of the seriousness of fall-out on the Island. I fall-out in the Isle of Man and within would like to finish up by saying that a radius of a hundred miles and I think the hon. member for Castletown seems we are covered in every way by that in- to know more about Civil Defence than formation. As for the booklet and in- myself or the vice-chairman and it is a formation for the general public the thousand pities he is not the chairman United Kingdom have issued booklets of the Commission. up to now which are priced from is 6d to 2s on nuclear war, fall-out and the Mr Colebourn: I would. hydrogen bomb and everything else and he could have bought these booklets, or The resolution was agreed, Mr Cole- his friends, and got all the information bourn dissenting. he requires, and the general public can The Governor: Now, gentlemen, I will get that information. We have pre- take the items running 15, 16 and so on. pared a booklet for the residents of the Isle of Man and it is in simple form to tell the public what to do in the event of an emergency, but the United King- ISLE OF MAN BOARD OF dom—I was down at the Home Office EDUCATION—VOTE OF £411,164 last week—are • not going to issue that booklet, at present and they have re- The Court agreed to the following queSted us not to issue the booklet in resolution in the name of the chairman preparation, but it will be used to the of the Board of Education:— wardens and it will be for the wardens That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be to advise the people in their particular authorised to apply from the current revenue areas of what to do and the booklet will of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, 1961, a sum not exceeding £411,164 for the not be issued to the population but just purpose of defraying the expenditure to be to the wardens. Mr Colebourn has incurred in connection with the following mentioned about the farmers of this services:—

Isle of Man Board of 4.1..1 cation—Vote of £411,164 1340 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

(a) Public Education £406.430 of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, (b) Education (Young People's Wel- 1961, a sum not exceeding £36,215 for the fare) Act, 1944 4,734 purpose of defraying the following expendi- tures:— £411.164 PART I— Maintenance, repair and improve- Such sum to include the sum of £111,000 ment of public buildings £23,995 voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. PART II— Running expenses 12,220

FORESTRY, MINES AND LANDS £36,215 BOARD—VOTE OF £72,530. Such sum to include the sum of £4,800 Mr Callister: Your Excellency, I voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. would like to suggest to the chairman ISLE OF MAN HARBOUR BOARD of the Forestry Board to consider if he That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be would, the question of the attendance of authorised to apply from the current revenue members of his particular Board. I of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, understand there is one member who 1961, a sum not exceeding £123,360 to meet the expenditure to be incurred by the Isle has not been in attendance for two years of Man Harbour Board in connection with and I would ask him to give this his the following services:— consideration. Victoria Pier Buildings £1,815 The Court agreed the following reso- Douglas Harbour Swing Bridge 3,41.0 lution in the name of the chairman of Queen's Pier, Ramsey 9.980 the Forestry, Mines and Lands Board:— General maintenance of Harbours 103,155 Repairs to Quay Wall, Salt Works That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Site, Ramsey 5.000 authorised to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, £123,360 1961, a sum not exceeding £72,530 for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the Forestry, Mines and Lands Board, as Such sum to include the sum of £40,000 follows:— voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. (a) FORESTRY— ISLE OF MAN HEALTH SERVICES BOARD Running Expenses £62,775 That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Acquisition of Land 4,000 authorised to apply from the current revenue Amenity Planting 2,500 of this Isle during the year ending 31st Vehicles and Machinery 3.325 March, 1961, a sum not exceeding £761,500, for the purpose of defraying the expenditure £72,600 to be incurred by the Isle of Man Health Services Board in the administration of the (b) MINES AND LANDS— Isle of Man Health Services Act, 1948. Running Expenses .... (Credit) 70 Such sum to include the sum of £190.000 voted by Tynwald on the 15th. March, 1960. £72,530 ISLE OF MAN HIGHWAY AND Such sum to include the sum of £18,000 TRANSPORT BOARD voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be In addition the Forestry, Mines and Lands authorised to apply from the current revenue Board may spend a sum not exceeding of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, £17,095 from direct receipts. 1961, a sum not exceeding £203,110 for the purpose of defraying expenditure to be Mr Corkhill: It is being dealt with. incurred by the Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board. Such sum to include the sum of £25.000 FURTHER VOTES APPROVED voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. In addition the Highway and Transport EN BLOC Board may spend a sum not exceeding The following resolutions were £62,070 from direct receipts. Agreed:— ISLE OF MAN LOCAL GOVERNMENT GOVERNMENT PROPERTY TRUSTEES BOARD That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to apply from the current revenue authorised to apply—

Forestry. Mines and Lands Board—Vote of £72,530.—Further Votes Approved En Bloc. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1341

(i) From the current 'revenue of this Isle March, 1961, a sum not exceeding £25,000 during the year ending 31st March, 1961, a towards the expenses of the Manx Electric sum not exceeding £117,830 for the purpose Railway Board. of defraying the cost of the following Such sum to include the sum of £6,001 services:- voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. (a) Expenses of the Local Govern- ISLE OF MAN BOARD OF ment Board £26,330 . SOCIAL SERVICES (b) The Local Government (Fire Ser- vices) Act, 1950 3,000 That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to apply from the current revenue (c) Fire Escapes Act, 1950 12,000 of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, (d) Rural Housing Acts, 1947/53 12,000 1961, a sum not exceeding £673,900, towards (e) Tourist Accommodation Improve- the expenses to be incurred in connection ment Act, 1957 60,000 with the following services:- (1) Conversion of Fire Hydrants 2,000 (a) The Old Age Pensions Act, 1939 £34,700 (g) Local Government Refuse Act, (b)The Family Allowances Act, 1946 109,000 1957 500 (c) The National Insurance (Isle of (h) Foxdale Mines Clearance 2,000 Man) Act, 1948 359,000 (d) The National Assistance Act, 1951 163,100 £117,830 (e) The Personal Injuries (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1939 800 Such sum to include the sum of £40,000 (f) Social Services Act, 1948 4,300 voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. (g) Ex-Statutory Claims 3,000 (ii) From the funds standing to the credit of the Isle of Man Accumulated Fund, a sum £673,900 not exceeding £40.000 for the purpose of defraying the cost of the following services:- Such sum to include the sum of £120,000 (a) Annual Deficiences on Local voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. Authorities' Houses £5,000 (b) Maintenance. etc., of Housing ISLE OF MAN TOURIST BOARD Estates 4,000 That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be (c) Interest and Sinking Fund on authorised to apply from the current revenue Housing Loans 19,000 of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, (d) Erection of Store Sheds 2,000 1961, a sum not exceeding £68,800 as a grant to the Isle of Man Tourist Board for the (e) Agricultural Workers' Tied purpose of advertising the Island. Houses Scheme 10,000 Such sum to include the sum of £35,000 £40,000 voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. In addition the Tourist Board may spend a sum not exceeding £19,780 from direct Such sum to include the sum of £7,000 receipts. voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. LOCAL WAR PENSIONS COMMITTEE The Governor: With reference to item That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be 20 (Transport Board vote), £4,000 has authorised to apply from the current revenue been added for an increase in wages. of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, 1961, a sum not exceeding £1,820 for the Mr Stephen: On item 26 (Tourist purpose of defraying the administrative expenses of the Committee appointed by the Board vote), the vote is for £68,800, but Court under the Navy and Military War it appears in the estimate as £69,000. Pensions (Isle of Man) Act, 1915. What is the reason? Such sum to include the sum of £450 voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. Mr J. M. Cain: I said when I pre- MANX MUSEUM AND NATIONAL TRUST sented the estimates that the additional That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be sum of £1,000 had been added to meet atuhorised to apply from the current revenue plans which the Board, in conjunction of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, with the Season Extension Committee, 1961, a sum not exceeding £12,727 for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the had of great publicity value. That Manx Museum and National Trust. scheme has not come to a head and we Such sum to include the sum of £3,170 advised Your Excellency that the sum voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960, was not required for that item. MANX ELECTRIC RAILWAY BOARD That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Mr Corkhill: May I make reference authorised to apply from the current revenue to signposts on the roads in relation to of this Isle during the year ending 31st the Highway Board vote. At Foxdale on

Further Votes Approved En Bloc. 1342 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 race days motorists who wanted to get (b) Douglas Corporation— from Ballacraine to Foxdale found Extension of Supplies to themselves at Castletown before they Rural Areas 4.500 found they had passed the East Foxdale Water Supply Acts 2.900 road. I suggest it should be signposted. — 7,400 -- With reference to another place, a £36,290 member of the staff of the Forestry Board says his wife is continually called Such sum to include the sum of £600 voted on at Ronague to direct people on the by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. road to Colby and Ballabeg. EXPENSES UNDER MISCELLANEOUS Mr Edward Callister: There are many STATUTES other places. That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to apply from the current revenue Mr McFee: As vice-chairman of the of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, 1961. a sum not exceeding £83,420 for the Highway Board I will undertake that purpose of defraying the expenditure to be Mr Corkhill's remarks be • brought incurred in connection with the following before the Board. services:— Children Acts £6,000 Mr Colebourn: I would like to draw Civil Registration Acts 3,000 attention to the state of the signposts Cruelty to Animals Act 10 into Ballasalla village. On the signpost Dangerous Goods Act 10 which directs people into Castletown or Food Regulation Act 10 to the vice-chairman's village it is im- Gas Regulation Act 10 Inquests of Death Acts 750 possible to read the lettering. It wants Meritorious Service (Grants and Pen- painting. sions) Act, 1957 100 Pensions (Increase) Acts 6,500 The following resolutions were Port Erin Biological Station and Fish agreed:— Hatchery Act 1.200 Postcard Censorship Act 10 ISLE OF MAN TOURIST BOARD Probation of Offenders Act 1,100 —RACE COMMITTEE Public Authorities Acquisition of That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Land Acts 50 authorised to apply from the current revenue Rating and Valuation Act, 1953 38,000 of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, 1961, a sum not exceeding £26,200, to defray Representation of the People Act 4,000 the expenditure incurred in connection with Superannuation (Officers of Boards) the Road Races in the Isle of Man. Acts 14,500 Tithe Act. 1946 Such sum to include the sum of £15,000 250 voted by Tynwald on the 15th March. 1960. National Health Service (Isle of Man) (Superannuation) Regulations, 1955 7,500 In addition the Race Committee may spend a sum not exceeding £1,300 for direct Slaughter House Act, 1956 420 receipts. Such sum to include the sum of £8,500 voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. WATER SUPPLIES That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be The Governor: In the last item before authorised to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, the Court the £420 has been added and 1961, a sum not exceeding £36,290 for the letters have been sent to the branches. purpose of defraying the following services:— (a) Isle of Man Water Board— The following resolution was agreed— Extension of Water Supplies £3,600 Renewal of Unserviceable MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES Mains 13,780 That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Services to Farms 7.000 authorised to apply from the current revenue Miscellaneous Mains of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, 4.000 1961, a sum not exceeding £110,708 for the Lavatory Accommodation at purpose of defraying the expenditure to be Reservoirs for Anglers 510 incurred in connection with the following 28,890 services:—

Further Votes Approved En Bloc. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1343

Rebate on White Spirit for Dry The Governor: The last time you Cleaning Industry £100 raised this matter I gave you to under- Harbour Dues—Refund of 100 stand that I would lock into the pos- Pritning and Advertising 750 Government Hospitality and Enter- sibility of making suitable appoint- tainment 400 ments. (Laughter.) I have been look- Overseas Settlement Scheme 100 ing into it. Manxmark Committee 200 Rebate on Aviation Spirit 2000, Mr Edward Callister: I understood I Rebate on Hydrocarbon Oils 65,000 was to be appointed. (Laughter.) 250 Grant to Rifle Association The following resolutions were Service Cadet Units 6,000 Exchequer and Audit Department 2,000 agreed:— Miscellaneous Charges 3.000 MAINTENANCE OF ROADS Personal Accident Insurance Policy 50 —LOCAL AUTHORITIES Admiral of Herring Fleet 5 That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Vice-Admiral of. Herring Fleet 3 authorised to apply from the current revenue Insular Coast Telephones 750 of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, Imperial Institute — Permanent Ex- 1961, a sum not exceeding £30.332 for the hibition of the Isle of Man 500 purpose of defraying the Government propor- Flour Subsidy 17,000 tion of the cost of the maintenance and reconstruction of scheduled roads and the Food Reserves 1,500 construction of unadopted roads in the town Coal (Sea Freight) Subsidy 11,000 and village districts as follows:— Provision in respect of Private Streets £2,000 £110,708 1st Class Roads, 75 per cent. grants— Such sum to include the sum of £25,000 voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. Douglas Corporation £17.250 Ramsey Commissioners .. 2,338 Mr Kelly: I should like to draw atten- Peel Commissioners 974 tion to the flour subsidy item. The Castletown Commissioners 353 Finance and Consultative Committee Port Erin Commissioners 375 who are examining this, wish to inform Port St. Mary Commissioners 849 the Court that this may be the last 22,139 time that the flour subsidy will be 2nd Class Roads, 60 per cent. grants— approved in the Keys. Careful inquiry Douglas Corporation 4,680 has been going on into it. I am taking Ramsey Commissioners 440 this opportunity of mentioning it. Peel Commissioners 141 Mr Kaneen: If the flour subsidy is to Port Erin Commissioners 95 Port St. Mary Commissioners 216 be done away with I hope the oppor- 5,572 tunity will be taken to control the price 3rd Class Roads, 50 per cent. of bread. We have been able to control grants— the price of beer and bread is more Ramsey Commissioners 104 important. Peel Commissioners 198 Castletown Commissioners 10 Mr Gale: I would like some informa- Port Erin Commissioners 279 tion on the last item—coal subsidy. Is Port St. Mary Commissioners 30 it increased? 621 The Attorney-General: It is slightly £30,332 less—£12,250 last year and £11,000 this year. I do not know the reason. Such sum to include the sum of £1,000 voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. Mr Edward Callister: The two items DOUGLAS CORPORATION relating to the Admiral and Vice- —DEVELOPMENT SCHEMES Admiral of the herring fleet are That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be ridiculous, when the herring fleet does authorised to apply from the current revenue not exist. of this Isle during the year ending 31st March,

Further Votes Approved En Bloc. 1344 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

1961. a sum not exceeding £6,025 by way of 1961. a sum not exceeding £300 by way of grant to the Douglas Corporation towards the grant to the Port St. Mary Village Commis- cost of the following:— sioners towards the cost of the reconstruction (a) Erection of 2 Bus Shelters £150 of Clifton Road. (b) Port Soderick Glen Development 1,000 DEVELOPMENT SCHEMES (c) Widening of Central Promenade 4.875 That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be £6,025 authorised to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, 1961, a sum not exceeding £100,000 for the RAMSEY TOWN COMMISSIONERS purpose of defraying the cost of development —DEVELOPMENT SCHEMES schemes to be approved by His Excellency That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be the Lieutenant-Governor. authorised to apply from the current revenue Such sum to include the sum of £80,000 of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, voted by Tynwald on the 15th March, 1960. 1961, a sum not exceeding £4,051 by way of grant to the Ramsey Town Commissioners DOUGLAS CORPORATION—DEVELOPMENT towards the cost of the following:— OF BUS/AIR TERMINAL AT LORD STREET (a) Storm Water Drainage Scheme in Whereas Tynwald on the 30th December, Bowring Road £718 1958. authorised the Government Treasurer (b) Mooragh Park Brows Develop- to meet the interest, at a rate not exceeding ment 1,486 5 per cent., and the sinking fund payments (c) Purchase of property in Church on a loan not exceeding £37.000, repayable in 25 years, to be raised by the Douglas Corpora- Street and King Street 4 tion for the purpose of developing a bus/air (d) Demoltion of property— terminal on Lord Street Car Park, Douglas. Auckland Lane, Waterloo Lane, And whereas it is now estimated that the Church Street, and College Street 178 cost of the scheme will be £42,300. (e) Glen Elfin and Vernon Roads 1,665 Resolved,—that Tynwald authorises the Government Treasurer to meet the interest, £4,051 at a rate not exceeding 5 per cent., and the sinking fund payments, on an additional loan Such sum to include the sum of £1,000 not exceeding £5,300, repayable in 25 years, voted by Tynwald on the 15th March. 1960. to be raised by the Douglas Corporation for the purpose of developing a bus/air terminal PEEL TOWN COMMISSIONERS on Lord Street Car Park, Douglas. That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be BUS/AIR TERMINAL authorised to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be 1961. a sum not exceeding £336 by way of authorised to apply from the funds standing grant to the Peel Town Commissioners to the credit of the Isle of Man Accumulated towards the cost of the following:— Fund a sum not exceeding £2.750 by way of (a) Promenade Shelters £28 contribution to the Douglas Corporation equivalent to the interest and sinking fund (b) Erection of Groyne on foreshore 308 charges on the money borrowed to meet the cost of the development of a bus/air terminal, £336 excluding terminal building, at Lord Street.

PORT ERIN VILLAGE COMMISSIONERS DEVELOPMENT OF INDUSTRY ACT —DEVELOPMENT SCHEMES That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to apply from the funds standing authorised to apply from the current revenue to the•credit of the Isle of Man Accumulated of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, Fund a sum not exceeding £50,000 for the 1961, a sum not exceeding £316 by way of purposes of the Development of Industry grant to the Port Erin Village Commissioners Act, 1949. towards the cost of the following:— (a) Purchase of Bradda Glen £200 Mr Edward Callister: With reference 03) Bradda Road improvement 116 to the £50,000 for development of industry. I think there is a feeling in the £316 Court that we should know more about what this money is being spent on. I PORT ST. MARY VILLAGE am not urging this at the moment, but COMMISSIONERS—DEVELOPMENT SCHEMES when we have asked questions about it we seem to have been fobbed off. I That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to apply from the current revenue would like it if His Excellency would of this Isle during the year ending 31st March, keep the Court informed.

Further Votes Approved En Bloc. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1345

Mr Nivison: I understand Your Ex- The Governor: In reply to the last cellency has given an assurance that three hon. members I think I can assure when this matter is looked into the Wil- them that all these questions will come liams report will come forward. I up for discussion with Mr Williams' think it is the desire of the Court to report. They are, in fact, all dealt with treat this matter liberally—to take cer- by him. tain risks to encourage rather than dis- The following resolutions were courage industrialists, and I hope this agreed:— method will be put forward to help them rather than prevent them from getting DOUGLAS CORPORATION—TROMODE any assistance. We should also consider DRAINAGE SCHEME That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be how we can go out to the United King- authorised to apply from the funds standing dom to invite firms of national repute to the credit of the Isle of Man Accumulated to come here under attractive terms. Fund a sum not exceeding £2,460, as a con- tribution to the Douglas Corporation towards Then we might not require vote No. 37 the cost of the construction of a sewerage —the £100,000 for relief of unemploy- system in the Tromode Drainage District. ment. This Development of Industry CASTLETOWN COMMISSIONERS—ANNUAL vote was approached with the idea of DEFICIENCY GRANT ON SEWERAGE trying to attract these industrialists and SCHEME certain ones in the Island have been a That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be great boon—the one at Ramsey and the authorised to apply from the funds standing to the credit of the Isle of Man Accumulated one at Ronaldsway. I think it is an un- Fund a sum not exceeding £1,000 by way of disputed fact that they are a great boon. grant to the Castletown Commissioners If we succeeded in spending the whole towards the annual deficiency incurred in connection with the main sewerage and of the £50,000 in one year to get firms pumping station scheme for the town of of this type—one or more—it would be Castletown in accordance with the terms of the resolution passed by Tynwald on the to our advantage. It is not a hypo- 19th October, 1954. thetical case as in surtax. There is un- doubted advantage to the, economic Mr Colebourn: Can I make an appeal situation of the Island if we do get those to Your Excellency and members of the people. They are producing a com- Court for the "Cinderella" of this modity paid for by money outside the Island. There is a resolution on the Island and therefore bring in new agenda dealing with votes to local money. I think we should approach it authorities. In Castletown, in spite of from that angle. the fact that there is a grant in exist- ence, the sewerage rate is is 5d, and I Mr Quayle: May I add to those think Castletown is the highest rated remarks and go a little further in one community in this Island. I also under- direction. Great stress has been laid stand at Peel there is almost complete on publicising in England that these freedom of rates on drainage. They had facilities exist. While I agree with the a grant of £30,000 and the drainage rate hon. member I would like to also make is Id or 2d. In Castletown their dignity a plea for the small existing businesses in the past prevented them coming to in the Island. It has been a failing that beg for money and now they are at the provided you come from the area south end of their purse strings and at the end of Birmingham you can get money in of their tether. I would ask the the Isle of Man, but if you are in the authority responsible to think kindly of Island you have not got a hope. I would Castletown in this matter. make this plea for the small unit—even if he employs five people he contributes Lt.-Cdr. Quine: I think Castletown to providing industry. May I ask that has come off very well in item 42, which the applications from local men should is the annual payment to the Castletown be given ah equal chance. Town Commissioners by way of Govern-

Further Votes Approved En Bloc. 1346 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

ment grant in accordance with the made Peel's case exceptional. It was terms of a resolution passed by Tyn- claimed, for instance (I am not going wald on the 19th October, 1954. Under to say it was proved because I do not this resolution Tynwald paid £15,000 as know, and there was a great deal of a capital grant towards the cost of a discussion about it), but it was claimed scheme for reconstructing and improv- that the Harbour Board were respon- ing the main sewerage system of the sible, to some extent, for the trouble Town of Castletown, estimated at which existed at Peel. There was a very £39,000, and also the difference between heated argument at the time between the Peel Commissioners and the Har- the product of a rate of is in the £ in bour Board on the question, and I am the town and the annual charges of not going to say who was right because interest and sinking fund payments in I do not know, but I do think that had respect of the balance of the cost of the some influence with the Court and the scheme to be borrowed by the Commis- Court at that time came down very sioners, and maintenance (at a total cost generously on the side of Peel because not exceeding £400 per annum) for a of the exceptional circumstances, but it period of 50 years. The Board at that was quoted in this Court at the time time opposed the 50 years' period as 30 that it was not to be accepted as a pre- years was the recognised period for the cedent for future cases. I think the repayments of loans raised for schemes Court should be reminded of that. of sewerage, but they were not success- ful and the 50 years' period was Mr Stephen: I do not think, sir, we approved. I do not think you can should set-off one district against complain. another. I think if you look back on Castletown's experience you will see Mr Gale: I think Castletown Commis- that its trouble was due to a sewer sioners have every complaint in the collapse or something of that nature and world. Peel was troubled by the sewer I have always thought that this sewage outfall and the Government gave them rate was somewhat burdensome. I a 100 per cent._ grant, and I cannot see would respectfully suggest, sir, with all why Tynwald has saddled Castletown to due respect to the member for Peel, the extent of £24,000 on their rates— that you might have a look at it and because it does come out of the rates— see whether you can adjust the basis of against Peel which received a 100 per compensation for the Castletown Com- cent. grant. I do hope the Court will missioners. bear this in mind, despite what the vice- Lt.-Cdr. Quine: May I inform the chairman of the Local Government Court that the Local Government Board has said, and that you will go into Board have 24 sewage schemes, and the the question of hardship which has rate in the majority of them is 2s 6d in fallen upon Castletown over this sewer the £. out-fall. It does create discontent when one town has been fortunate enough to The Governor: Before I put the reso- receive a 100 per cent. grant from the lution to the Court, I will give an Government and another town, only 12 undertaking that I will look into the miels away, is saddled with a burden. matter. I hope Your Excellency will go into the The resolution was agreed. question and try to see how Castletown can be relieved of this burden. The Speaker: I would not wish to say TRANSFER TO GENERAL REVENUE anything, Your Excellency, to weaken The Governor: And now Item No. 43 the case of the hon. member for Castle- which reads as follows: town, but seeing that Peel has been That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be quoted I think it is only right that I authorised to apply from the funds standing should mention one or two facts which to the credit of the Isle of Man Accumulated

Transfer to General Revenue. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1347

Fund, a sum not exceeding £468,800 by way Mr J. M. Cain: I beg to move the of grant to the General Revenue of this Island. following resolution:— Item 43 was agreed. Whereas the Isle of Man Tourist Board has been charged with responsibility for attract- ing new premanent residents to the Isle of Man. ISLE OF MAN LOCAL GOVERNMENT And whereas representations have been re- BOARD — MAINTENANCE OF ceived by the Isle of Man Tourist Board that DRAINAGE SCHEMES (RE-VOTE) prospective permanent residents are finding difficulty in acquiring houses suitable to their The Governor: Item No. 44 which requirements. reads as follows:— Resolved,—that Tynwald approves that the That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be Isle of Man Tourist Board should fully in- authorised to apply from the funds standing vestigate ways and means of providing suit- to the credit of the Isle of Man Accumulated able modern housing for permanent residents Fund, a sum not exceeding £5,806 in respect and submit to this Honourable Court pro- of the general maintenance of the Isle of posals for ensuring that such residences are Man Local Government Board Drainage readily available in the Island. Schemes. Item 44 on the agenda was agreed. I am sure we are all anxious to remove every obstacle which might stand in the The Governor: Perhaps you would way of attracting permanent residents like to know that the procedure we have to the Isle of Man because everyone adopted with resolutions to-day has recognises the value to the Island's meant that the hon. Mr Speaker and I economy of new residents. We are have signed 88 pieces of paper! We will pleased to know that Your Excellency now proceed with item No. 5 on agenda has placed this matter of permanent No. 3. residents so high on your development Mr Stephen: Before we proceed, Your plan and in the list of priorities,. and I Excellency, I rise in connection with would say that the Tourist Board adver- No, 9 on this agenda, which deals with tise in newspapers circulating overseas, a casino project, and I would move, and place materials in overseas clubs, with your permission, that that item libraries, passenger vessels sailing to should be deferred until the October or and from overseas countries, stressing the November Tynwald. I think, the advantages of the Island as a resi- whether there is any justification for dential centre. We gladly acknowledge this recommendation or not, certain the help and the support which have things may be said which, at this time been received from Your EOccellency, of the year, we would rather not hear who has personally written articles for and, therefore I move that we defer its the newspaper "Corona," and also we consideration until October or Novem- appreciate the support which was given ber next. us by Your Excellency's predecessor. The Tourist Board, receive nearly a Mr A. C. Teare seconded. thousand applications a year for in- The Governor: You are giving me formation on the Isle of Man as a notice that you will move the resolution residential centre and the inquiries are at the appropriate time. answered by the dispatching of a copy of the pamphlet which members of Tynwald saw during the last sitting of HOUSING FOR PROSPECTIVE the Court. It would be nice to think, of PERMANENT RESIDENTS—TOURIST course, that every person who expressed BOARD RESOLUTION REJECTED interest in the Island eventually became The Governor: And now item 5 on the a resident. Obviously this is not the agenda paper No. 3. I call upon the case, and, indeed, how many people do hon. member for Douglas East, Mr Cain, come to reside here is a matter of con- chairman of the Isle of Man Tourist jecture; how many people go away after Board. a few years here is also a matter of con-

Isle •of Man Loca3 Government Board—Maintenance of Drainage Schemes (Re-Vote).—Housing for Prospective Permanent Residents—Tourist Board Resolution Rejected. 1348 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

;lecture. Now possibly the greatest support of his contention. If this is the attraction to any resident is favourable case, then it appears to the Tourist rates of taxation and I am glad that this Board that it would be worthwhile in- Court has agreed to the deletion of vestigating ways and means of pro- surtax because it means that we shall viding houses in the Isle of Man suit- be competing with Jersey and Guernsey able to the requirements of these on much fairer terms. In a recent sur- people. How this is to be done we do vey carried out in Jersey the following not at the moment know. There are recommendations were made (1) that many ways which could be suggested. every effort should be made to retain The Government could go forward the tourist industry at its present level, itself and build houses for sale at an but that further extension should be economic price. The Government might limited; (2) that plans be envisaged for even consider building these houses and letting them at an economic rental; it the building of up to one thousand might be better to enter into discussions houses according to demand for occu- with the building industry and see pation by the higher income groups and whether they could perhaps produce that for that purpose it must be ex- houses of this type for eventual sale pected there would be a call on agricul- with some assistance in the form of tural land, and then recommendations loans from the Government. We should 3 and 4 dealt with the economic type of like to be able to produce photographs dwellings. Jersey has, therefore,. recog- of typical houses which are readily nised the very great value which can be available to incoming permanent resi- derived from new additions to its resi- dents in the brochures which we now dent population! We; on the Board, produce and distribute. Indeed, such a have been disturbed to learn first-hand scheme if brought to fruition might be from people who come here to make one of the deciding factors in deter- inquiries that •they have experienced mining whether or not a person came great difficulty in obtaining the type of to the Island. As I said, the Board, at house which they consider satisfactory. the moment does not know what would We know there is a fair quantity of be the best way of dealing with the house property available, but new per- problem. All thgt, we ask to-day is manent residents—those of the kind we that the Court should give the Board are anxious to attract—are not in- authority to proceed with these in- terested in the suburban type of semi- quiries and give the Board some indica- detached house or a terrace house or a tion that if we come back to the Court boarding-house or a country cottage. in a few months' time with proposals What they require is a modern detached which might mean some Government house, not too big, or a bungalow with assistance for such a project that the every modern amenity, reasonable sized Court will listen with sympathy to our garden all situated in close proximity to proposals. Before I close may I say a centre where he can enjoy the that whatever plans are produced by amenities to which he is accustomed. my Board and whatever recommenda- I had, sir, the pleasure of meeting tions we bring forward to this Court, within the last few weeks a gentleman they will not in any way conflict with who has spent six months in the Isle of the plans of the authorities in the Isle Man trying to find a property to his of Man or of individual members of liking and who was prepared to spend a this Court to deal with the question of considerable sum of money to obtain housing for Manx people. This is an just this. He pointed out that he was entirely separate matter and the Board asked between £1,000 and £1,500 more would not make any recommendations in the Isle of Man for such a property which could in any way prejudice the than he would have paid in the South of provision of housing for our own people. England, and he produced evidence in I beg to move the resolution.

Housing for Prospective Permanent Residents—Tourist Board Resolution Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1349

Mr Kerruish: I beg to second the hon. member has said that one man he resolution and reserve my remarks. has been speaking to has taken six months over finding a suitable house, Mr Bolton: I wish to say at the outset, and I would say that if that gentleman Your Excellency, that I wish to move has taken six months to wander round an amendment to the wording of this the Island and choose a house, then resolution and I suggest that the amended resolution, if approved, should there is very little likelihood of his read, after the first two paragraphs:- being satisfied with a house they might build him. He must be a very, very Resolved—that Tynwald approves that the particular man if he could not find a Isle of Man Tourist Board should fully in- vestigate ways and means of ensuring that house which—with the necessary altera- suitable residences are readily available in tions—would suit him. We must the Isle of Man for permanent residents and submit the proposals to this Court. remember, sir, that these people we are hoping to attract are not poor. They It might seem that the wording of my are people with money. We are con- amendment means that the resolution is sidering people with an income of identical with the one submitted to perhaps two, three or four thousand this Court, but I am afraid it is not pounds—and yet we are going to help because it omits the words "ways and them to build a house. To talk of build- means of providing suitable modern ing or even giving them assistance is, housing for." If we pass the resolution in my opinion, quite wrong. I believe in its original form it might be that the we should assist him to obtain a house Tourist Board could come forward with but most certainly not with money. proposals to build houses and say that Take the case of a man with consider- we had authorised them to do so be- able income who comes over here be- cause we had accepted the principle cause the financial climate is right. He here to-day. takes one of the houses that the chair- man has provided—and I might point Mr A. C. Teare: Not at all! out that the chairman has mentioned photographs. You cannot have photo- Mr Bolton: I have sat in this Court graphs if you haven't any houses, so it for a great many years and I have seen does look as though the Board intend it happen. A perfectly innocuous reso- building them. But what happens when lution comes forward. It is accepted he takes this house? The colour of the and later it is used for a basis for argu- paint is wrong, the bathroom is in the ment that "Tynwald has accepted the wrong place. the house itself is in the principle." I feel that the Tourist wrong place on the plot, and so on. All Board should not be authorised to pro- these things will be said. The wording ceed in any way with the idea of build- of this is such that it will encourage the ing houses for people who would come Tourist Board to build houses, which I to live on the Island. I do agree that it submit, is wrong. is essential that the Tourist Board should be in a position to put intending Mr J. M. Cain: Read the resolution. residents in touch with estate agents, builders and so on, and they should Mr Bolton: I have read it and I know have a list of suitable sites and should what is at the back of it. My resolu- have plans prepared which will be tion is different when it is carefully acceptable to the Local Government analysed. The chairman said he had Board and local authorities. They spoken to a man who had told him that ought to be in a position to say to pros- a house in the Isle of Man was going to pective residents "there is a choice of cost him between £1,000 and £1,500 plans." I believe that every effort more in the Isle of Man than in the should be made to put before new resi- South of England. I read in a newspaper dents plans of suitable houses. The only yesterday that it cost £10,000 to

Rousing for Prospective Permanent Residents—Tourist Board Resolution Rejected. 1350 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 build a small three-bedroomed house in will get a house that cost perhaps Jersey. What is the attraction of Jersey? £3,000 quite recently having to be They have to have permits to get in and altered to suit the future lady of the a small house costs £10,000. It would house at a cost of perhaps £500. People only cost a third of that here. We have want their houses exactly as they want nothing to fear. We know that a house them. They are not prepared to accept • that sells for £2.500 to-day would cost anything in the nature of a compromise. £3,500 to build, because the cost of To ask these people to accept houses building materials and wages have gone that are ready made is almost reducing up—we know that. We should be able these wealthy residents to the status of to tell these people when they come over tenants of local authority houses. That that they can get in touch with such- is not to say that I do not agree that and-such a builder and the Local every effort should be made to make it Government Board will approve such- as easy as possible for people to come and-such a plan if you put it forward, to the Island. The lines suggested by but to build these people houses is-- Mr Bolton, are to my mind, the sound Lt.-Cdr. Quine: Its crazy. way of dealing with this problem. I would be very loathe to pass this reso- Mr Bolton: Yes, crazy. I know, sir, a lution as at present framed, even if it good deal about the move to-day. I is in the name of one of the members don't want in any way to dim the of the Board. We would be told that ardour of the Tourist Board. but I don't we have approved this principle and want them to do anything that would that we should carry on. I know that make them appear foolish in the long we want to ensure that houses are run. I don't want to see them build six available for these people, but there are bungalows that no one wants, and see other ways of ensuring that houses are other people building bungalows be- available that will meet the legitimate cause they didn't like the ones provided requirements of the Tourist Board. If by the Tourist Board. I think it should the amendment of the hon. member is be re-worded so that it means they will resisted by the Tourist Board it will ensure that suitable residences are merely confirm what Mr Bolton and available for permanent residents, and myself have said, that there is more in I move that as an amendment. this resolution than meets the eye.

Mr Simcocks:, I beg to second the Mr A. C. Teare: I have three points amendment of the hon. member for to make and they should take me about Douglas West, Your Excellency, and I three minutes, Your Excellency. Firstly, do so for a particular reason. Both the this is purely a matter of investigation, hon. member and I know how this and I don't like the hands of the Tourist resolution has come before the Court. Board to be tied with regard to the pro- We know it has arisen from the mind of posals they might consider. It is a member of the Tourist Board who has possible that we could consider this the idea that it would be a good thing from the point of view of a Government to provide houses. In other words this project—acquire the land, lay it out in particular member wants to build building sites, lay roads, sewers and houses to make them available for these stop there and then sell building plots prospective new residents. I am en- to people. That has been done. Take, tirely in agreement with what Mr for example, the development of a small Bolton said. My own experience leads estate in Ramsey by the late Deemster me to be perfectly certain that ready Sir Percy Cowley, who acquired a plot made houses would never quite satisfy of land, laid it out—laid roads and the wife of the prospective buyer. She sewers and then those sites were would always say, "Yes, I like that snapped up in no time at all by people house, but . . ." The result is that you now resident in Ramsey and district. I

Housing for Prospective Permanent Residents—Tourist Board Resolution Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1351 would not like the hands of the Tourist Mr Corkhill: Why don't you speculate. Board to be tied in developments of this Mr Colebourn: I knew nothing what- nature. Secondly, I wonder if the ever about the proposed abolition of Tourist Board could consider having surtax but I suggested in this very consultations with people who have Court that we should cater for some come over here to settle in the Island, people who were coming back from the on matters of this kind? In the case of Colonies — Nigeria, Rhodesia, Ghana, this project I would like to see an Africa and South Africa — who would addenda setting out attractive designs want to retire.. people who have been in colour of dwelling houses and bunga- out there in those places for twenty to lows. I would also like to see, thirty years and have lost contact with for instance, His Excellency's article. their friends in the United Kingdom. I thought it was a most excellent They are ideally suited for retirement tribute to the Isle of Man. The book in the Island such as ours with a life would be available to people showing such as we can offer. I would say that the sites available at reasonable prices. maybe more important that the surtax and also showing the designs of houses payers are those people who would and bungalows and the rough costs of spend the whole of their income in this those, and the rough costs of this and Island, people who have lived to their still more attractive amenities and I salary and, after the years, have not hope the Tourist Board will consider it. been able to save money and planning Mr Colebourn: I am in support of the and thinking about a house and in no chairman of the Tourist Board. The position to buy a house, and I do hope hon. member for West Douglas, Mr that possibly in your next Budget you Bolton is a member for whom I have a might provide an inducement for surtax high regard but he lives in a small payers and a further inducement for world of his own hemmed in by income them to Come and enjoy a Government tax and other taxes but he knows little loan, tax free, at 4 per cent, for the of how the rest of the world lives. building of houses. Mr Edward Callister: He knows how Mr Kaneen: What about giving them to get the money in. a Rolls-Royce? Mr McFee: For himself. Mr Corkish: What about our own Mr Colebourn: We are going for the people? surtax payer but we are also going for Mr Colebourn: Yes, and for our own the man with a thousand pounds or two people on the Island. thousand a year. Mr Corkhill: All the time I have spent Lt.-Cdr. Quine: Where's he going to in this Court I have always backed up get it from. any help for people who were not in a Mr Colebourn: From Nigeria, from position to shelter themselves and I feel your Commonwealth countries. The that the Local Government Board has whole of this building plan as the chair- had a lot of experience as landlords of man has explained. some of those premises, but I think we are taking things too far when we have The Attorney-General: It is not a a resolution lgefore us asking us to building plan. build and sell----- Mr Colebourn: Then I think we Mr J. M. Cain: Who said that? should have one and build four or five Mr Corkhill: It was "build or let" and houses. I hope, once and for all, that this Court Lt.-Cdr. Quine: If you want to put up puts its foot down pretty firmly on any four houses that is just the way to idea of building and letting for people raise the prices. coming to this Island, and if they want

I-lousing for Prospective Permanent Residents—Tourist Board Resolution Rejected. 1352 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

all these things then they had better not want to get together with builders and come at all and I am not going to architects and with estate agents to support the motion. conduct the fullest possible inquiry Mr Kerruish: Your Excellency, this is a with.. as the hon. member for Ramsey a Tourist Board resolution and as such has said the fullest investigation into I support it. The Court will recall that what is necessary actually to clinch the the Tourist Board were charged several deal so far as those people who look years ago with the duty of attracting around are concerned. There may be permanent residents and, in conse- potential residents coming to the Island quence of that charge being laid, they who see an area where they would like have attempted during the years to to reside but they find that they have to carry out their duties. They have found go along to an accountant to find the in recent months,. from discussions with tax system and then they have to go to estate agents, that there is extreme a lawyer to see about the charges of the difficulty in fixing up intending resi- building and they visit an estate agent dents with the type of house they re- and then the Local Government Board quire and another factor, the lack of and they have got to cut through reams building estate, has been stressed by of red tape. When you are getting on the estate agents and, in consequence of in years it is a fact that you do not want the evidence that they have had put to be bothered by reams of red tape. It before them, they have decided to ask may be that the hon. member for Glen- this Court to allow the Board, and the faba, Mr Corkhill, does not give this body responsible, to make the fullest any regard but it is a fact that elderly inquiry—but not an inquiry with one's people do not want the bother of cutting hands tied behind one's back. through all this red tape—contacting a Mr Corkhill: Who is tying them? builder and hunting round for weeks to try and get the job done—and they Mr Kerruish: You are, and in his would prefer to get an available insiduous way, Mr Simcocks. property and it was the hope of the Mr Simcocks: There is nothing in- Board that they would be able to indi- siduous. cate the best possible means, within the information of the Board, that should Mr Kerruish: And the members will be adopted. Now, sir, it is obvious from recall that the trouble in the opposition the resolution before you that the Board camp is this. The Tourist Board have cannot do anything themselves, They made approaches to Your Excellency's would come back to the Court to report Executive Council who informed us and it is up to the Court to accept or they were not prepared to play ball and reject their findings. I have not been the Board have gone past the Executive astounded by the opposition, I expected and come to this Court direct believing it from the source it comes, but it can the Court must declare if they desire well be disregarded and I hope the residents of the type we require in the Court will, in fact, adopt the Board's £1,000 to £2,000 class. The Board are resolution, knowing they are in touch convinced that there are not suitable with the problems with which the other dwellings available for that type of members may not be so well acquainted person. They are the type of people and I have every confidence that the who require a modern type of dwelling Court will pass the resolution as it which is easy to run by an older person stands as another method possibly of with oil-firing and central heating and getting permanent residents to our modern amenities which, let us face it, shores. are not available to the majority of residents on the market to-day and the Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, could I Board, in view of the fact that we are ask a question. In view of the last losing potential residents, I feel that they speaker's statement that the Tourist

Housing for Prospective Permanent Residents—Tourist Board Resolution Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1353

Board brought the matter before the of property here has fallen, that the Executive Council whether he can property is far cheaper and I hope the inform us if it had been considered Court will accept the amendment, before the Tourist Board put it up. Lt.-Cdr. Quine: I intend to support Mr Kerruish: I do not think the the amendment because this is a most sequence even matters. I am aware of uneconomic scheme. When the Tourist the hon. member's outmoded attitude. Board start to dabble in the building He backs a source which failed to industry the only result will be to put supply us with what we required years up the cost of building. The Island has ago—private enterprise. If it had not been fleeced on that account. The Local been so consistently late the Island .Government Board has had some very would have been in the happy position bitter experience in providing houses. of benefitting, but it has not, but when There was one case where an official it fails we have to have a measure of came to the Island and demanded a not only private enterprise development house. The Local Government Board but Government support in order to get bought him a very nice house but he the progress as quickly as we desire, had only been here a few years when and although I am sure he will oppose he said the house was no use to him and Government development I disagree the house for which we paid £4,000 was with him completely. put on the market and we got only £3,000 for it. That was because it was Mr Kaneen: I fail to see the Board's abused inside. I am very keen on opposition to the amendment. It can statistics and in a very small area in still be done within the compass of the my district I counted twenty houses •of amendment. The amendment ensures two and three bedrooms, a lot of which that but do they want to go into the have been built since the war in which building trade? It sounds very much there was one elderly person living. In as though they do. I know now why the last spring six of those people died this has become No. 1 priority and I can and six houses were immediately understand the permanent residents be- thrown on the market. Before very coming No. 1 priority. Apart from long the remainder will also be thrown letting them off surtax we are now on the market. When people come to going to provide them with a house when they have sufficient money to do the Island and build a house they often do not last more than four or five years it in their own way. Surely they are and if an elderly man and his wife come competent enough to do that them- and one of them dies the widow is left selves. • I have no opposition to the with a modern villa and she says she Tourist Board making it easier in intro- does not like living here and will go ducing people to the Island and telling back to Birmingham or Manchester or them where they can get a builder, or somewhere like that and the house is architect and give plenty of details, but thrown on the market, With statistics I cannot understand the pecessity for I think we might find that that is going providing homes. on even in my colleague's own area. Mr J. M. Cain: Ways and means. Houses do not last long if they are empty and I think it would be a dread- Mr Kaneen: Whether it is ways and ful mistake to build houses for these means or bricks and mortar you want to people and I support the amendment. ensure that it is done the right way. When the chairman tells us that there Mr McFee: I am a member of the was a gentleman over here six months building trade and it would please me ago telling him that the price of to be able to support the resolution. We property is up to £1.500 in the South of were told that there are plenty of England I will tell him that the price empty houses on the market and we

Housing for Prospective Permanent Residents—Tourist Board Resolution Rejected. 1354 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

want to abolish rent restriction. I do to reside usually have plenty of money not see any consistency in that. A few and they would like a hOuSe to suit years ago when the abolition of rent themselves. I am supporting Mr restriction was discussed there were Bolton's amendment. The Board can plenty of houses and I cannot see how carry out all the investigations they like all of a sudden they are full of resi- under the amendment proposed by Mr dents at the present time. I believe Bolton without committing themselves. there are a number of different types of Mr Bolton: The word "provide" has houses on the market, but I feel this been introduced. I object to that—it is resolution is only one to investigate to inquire into the question of seeing if ways and means and I am going to move suitable residences are available. They in the way of compromise a different could come back and say they have amendment which will be divided into investigated and found they have no two sections. First of all, I suggest that means of ensuring that houses are readily available, There is no need to Tynwald approve that the Tourist Board include the word "provide," Providing investigate ways and means of (a) pro- houses has been inserted into this reso- viding suitable houses and (b) of en- lution to start the ball rolling, to catch suring that houses are available. Then the Court. they can be dealt with as two separate sections and reported on. When their The Attorney-General: I have His report is brought back to Tynwald we Excellency's permission to read a ,will have the opportunity of saying minute of the Executive Council dated "Out with (a)—we only support (b)." May 5th,. 1960— I feel that is an effective compromise. Attraction of New Residents.—Council con- It will give the opportunity to the sidered a recommendation of the Tourist Tourist Board to make a full investiga- Board that Government should, as an experi- ment, build six bungalows or small houses tion without being tied or hampered by of superior quality in different parts of the the amendment as it stands at present. Island and offer them for sale at cost to I move that. incoming prospective residents. Reports on the availability of housing for residents had Mr Corkish: I second that amend- been received from five estate agents: three considered that there was a wide range of ment. houses alredy available, two held that there was not. The Local Government Board Mr Moore: While agreeing that the advised against either building such houses Tourist Board should make the fullest or making grants or loans available to such potential residents. It was agreed (Mr investigation I am against the building Kerruish dissenting) that the most that of houses because you may have ten should be done was for the Tourist Board to houses built but they may not suit the investigate possible sites, to have plans, people. They go round and look at them approved by the Local Government Board, prepared, with models and costings and to and decide only one is suitable which have these available for prospective residents' may be in Port Erin while they want to inspection. live in Douglas. You would be laying out this money and it would be difficult The resolution before the Court by the to realise in the future what we were Tourist Board was passed to His spending on this. What the Tourist Excellency for inclusion in the agenda Board could do is get plans out and if four days after—on May 9th. anyone wishes to have a plan they could Mr Kerruish: May I ask how long it be shown to the people costing say has been the habit of the Executive £4,000, £5.000 or £6,000. Then the Council to place their minutes before person will come along and say, "This is this Court other than in a form which the house I would like with slight has been agreed by Your Excellency and alterations." When you have got a plan the Executive Council. Is this a new like that you could find a suitable site procedure and can we took forward to to build it on. People who come here it in the future?

Housing for Prospective Permanent Residents—Tourist Board Resolution Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960 1355

The Governor: Not necessarily. It permanent residents and submit to this was made quite clear to the Court it hon. Court proposals for ensuring that was considered by the Executive Coun- such residences are readily available in cil and it seemed to me that this minute the Island." We still have to come back should be read to the members of this to the Court. We did not say as the Court so that they would be fully aware mover of the amendment is implying of it. that if we passed this resolution to-day the six houses would be built. There Mr Kerruish: I take it hon. members are too many principles which are not can ask for suitable minutes to be pro- there. As chairman of the Board I duced when it suits their book. never envisaged building houses with- out coming to this Court. I do not Mr Stephen: It would appear that the envisage it to-day. As far as the Tourist Board have been given autho- Tourist Board is concerned, if you do rity to proceed with plans and costings not want us to look into the building of but that did not meet with the Board's houses it will save us a lot of time. This approval and they have been "needled" has come about because some members at the Executive Council's decision and of this Court have no confidence in come to Tynwald obviously with the other members of this Court. That is intention of obtaining some sort of tacit the real reason if you come down to approval for a building plan. The brass tacks. I am surprised at what words "building plan" were dropped out has been said here to-day. We have perhaps not intentionally and the chair- come here to ask permission to provide man of the Board saw he had dropped houses and let this Court know what "a clanger." I would have thought in we think should happen. According to the course of the general duty cast on this, we are going to accept a principle the Tourist Board to attract new resi- which is not meant. I for one really dents they would have been within came here to-day quite clean. I be- their rights to make inquiries about the lieved we should meet builders and availability of houses and if necessary architects and see what private enter- to produce plans to the Court. It prise can do and come back to this would appear that they are determined, Court and see if the Government will if the Court will agree,. to build six .support schemes. I only wanted the bungalows round the Island and say to resolution to go through with quite prospective residents they can have one clean hands and we will come back to off the shelf. I do not think that would the Court and report. appeal to the type of people who might be attracted here. They are the type of Mr Simcocks: I wonder whether I people who want things to their own could ask the chairman of the Board design and I do not think any building this question. Could the Tourist Board we could put up would meet the require- carry out all the necessary arrange- ments of prospective residents. I am ments before coming to this Court for prepared to vote for the amendment permission. proposed by Mr Bolton but in the Mr McFee: That would mean a lot of terms of that amendment the Board work, and then the project might be should be authorised to make inquiries thrown out. but not to embark on any building plan. Mr J. M. Cain: The resolution states Mr J. M. Cain: I have been rather quite clearly: "And submit to this hon. surprised by the words which have been Court proposals for ensuring that such put into this resolution, words which to residences are readily available in the my mind were never in it. The resolu- Island." I am afraid I do not know tion states that we should be allowed to that the hon. member for Rushen, Mr "fully investigate ways and means of Simcocks, is "getting at." We have to providing suitable modern housing for submit any proposals to Tynwald.

Housing for Prospective Permanent Residents—Tourist Board Resolution Rejected. 1356 'TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 22, 1960

The Governor: That, gentlemen, con- For: Messrs Crowe, Radcliffe, Ker- cludes the debate. and I will put the ruish, H. S. Cain, McFee, Cole- amendment which was moved by the bourn, Edward Callister, Corkish, hon. member for Rushen, Mr McFee, J. M. Caine, Gale, Kelly and A. C. which is as follows: "Resolved that Teare-12. Tynwald approve that the Isle of Against: Messrs Nivison, Simcocks, Man Tourist Board fully investigate Coole, Stephen, Kaneen,. Bolton and ways and means of (a) providing suit- the Speaker-7. able modern houses for permanent residents, and (b) ensuring that suit- The Governor: The substantive able houses are readily available in the motion is carried by 12 votes to seven Isle of Man." in the Keys and lost in the Council four-three; therefore, the substantive The Governor put the amendment motion falls. His Lordship the Bishop, and declared it lost. the Second Deemster and Mr A. J. Teare voted for. That concludes the The Governor: I will now put the debate. Well, gentlemen, I see it is six amendment moved by the hon. member o'clock and we still have a great deal of for Douglas West, Mr Bolton which business to transact, so I am going to retains the first two paragraphs of the ask you to meet again to-morrow morn- resolution, but whereby the final para- ing. Would 10-45 a.m, be suitable? graph would read: "Resolved that Tyn- wald approves that the Isle of Man Mr Kerruish: Would it be possible, Tourist Board should fully investigate sir, as it has already been indicated that ways and means of ensuring that suit- Tynwald ought not to sit on three con- able residences are readily available in secutive days, that we should adjourn the Isle of Man for permanent residents, the remainder of the agenda until next Isle of Man for permanent residents Tuesday. and submits the proposals to this The Speaker: I would very much like Court." to share the view expressed by the hon. The Governor put the resolution and member for Garff but before a decision declared it carried. There was a call is taken I would remind hon. members for a division when the voting in the of the consequences. We ought to sit in Keys was as follows:— the Keys next Tuesday and in the normal way it would be the last sitting For: Messrs Corkhill, Crowe, Sim- of the session, and we have a very heavy cocks, Coole, Stephen, Kaneen, agenda. We have to deal with matters Bolton, Kelly and the Speaker-9. of great urgency, and, therefore I would Against: Messrs Radcliffe, Kerruish, respectfully submit that we should bow H. S. Cain., McFee. Colebourn, to His Excellency's request and meet Edward Callister, Corkish, J. M. again in the morning. Cain, Gale and A. C. Teare-10. The Governor: I take it you are pre- The Governor: Gentlemen, the amend- pared to sit to-morrow and therefore I ment was lost unanimously in the adjourn the Court to to-morrow at Council and in the Keys by nine votes 10-45 a.m. to ten. Therefore the amendment falls. The Court adjourned to 10-45 a.m., We will now consider the substantive Thursday, 23rd June, 1960. motion which was moved by the chair- man of the Tourist Board—and I think I would like a division myself. (Laugh- HOUSE OF KEYS ter.) The House met on the conclusion of The resolution went to a division Tynwald when the Speaker adjourned when the voting in the House of Keys the House to 10-45 a.m. on Thursday was as follows:— June 23rd, in Tynwald.

Housing for Prospective Permanent Residents—Tourist Board Resolution Rejected.