T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T
R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L
P R O C E E D I N G S
D A A L T Y N
HANSARD
Douglas, Tuesday, 10th December 2013
All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Please select a year:
Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office. Supplementary material subsequently made available following Questions for Oral Answer is published separately on the Tynwald website, www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Hansard Appendix
Volume 131, No. 3
ISSN 1742-2256
Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2013 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Present:
The President of Tynwald (Hon. C M Christian)
In the Council: The Acting Attorney General (Mr J Quinn), Mr R P Braidwood, Mr D M W Butt, Mr M R Coleman, Mr C G Corkish MBE, Mr A F Downie OBE, Mr J R Turner and Mr T P Wild with Mr J D C King, Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.
In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. S C Rodan) (Garff); The Chief Minister (Hon. A R Bell) (Ramsey); Hon. D M Anderson (Glenfaba); Mr L I Singer (Ramsey); Hon. W E Teare (Ayre); Mr A L Cannan (Michael); Hon. T M Crookall (Peel); Mr P Karran, Mr Z Hall and Mr D J Quirk (Onchan); Mr R H Quayle (Middle); Mr J R Houghton and Mr R W Henderson (Douglas North); Hon. D C Cretney and Mrs K J Beecroft (Douglas South); Hon. C R Robertshaw and Mrs B J Cannell (Douglas East); Hon. J P Shimmin and Mr C C Thomas (Douglas West); Mr R A Ronan (Castletown); Hon. G D Cregeen (Malew and Santon); Hon. J P Watterson, Mr L D Skelly and Hon. P A Gawne (Rushen); with Mr R I S Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald.
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Business transacted
Leave of absence granted ...... 407 Papers laid before the Court...... 407 Questions for Oral Answer ...... 409 1. Protecting Children Board – Legislation to put on a statutory basis ...... 409 2. Exceeding ministerial powers – Recourse available ...... 412 3. Small businesses – Access to loans ...... 414 4. Personal tax information – Security re foreign tax authorities ...... 416 5. Water and Sewerage Authority – Sinking fund ...... 417 6. National Insurance and old age pensions – Treasury policy ...... 420 7. Peel Road, Douglas – Progress of reconstruction scheme ...... 421 8. Douglas promenade – Progress of reconstruction scheme ...... 424 9. Ronaldsway Airport – Problems with runway...... 425 10. Ronaldsway Airport – Problems with new radar system...... 426 11. Douglas outer harbour – Reason for improvements ...... 429 12. Glenside – Plans for building and land ...... 432 13. Landlord and tenancy legislation – Enforcement and need for new legislation ...... 433 14. Isle of Man Adoption Service – New role ...... 438 15. Bus provision – DCCL and Bus Vannin plans ...... 440 16. Jurby Health and Community Centre – Operations capacity; fulfilment of purpose ..... 441 17. Cancer treatments and drugs – NHS availability and cost ...... 444 18. West Midlands Quality Review Service – Areas not being reviewed ...... 448 19. Pay awards – Impact on frontline services ...... 451 20. Child poverty – Definition; numbers ...... 453 21. Fuel poverty – Reducing excess winter deaths ...... 455 22. Breast cancer prevention – Vitamin D ...... 457 23. Police cells – Overnight stays; cost ...... 458 The Court adjourned at 1.05 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m...... 460 Questions for Written Answer ...... 461 24. Cyber security – Government attendances at conferences ...... 461 25. Biological attacks – Protection; availability of vaccines ...... 462 26. Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 – Introduction of UK provisions to Island...... 462 27. DSC children’s homes – Department responsibilities; duty of care ...... 462 28. Criminal convictions of companies – Offences leading to possible conviction ...... 463 29. Bus services – Assessment of routes ...... 466 ______403 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
30. Establishment of TT museum – Update on progress ...... 466 31. Secondary schools – Pupil truancy rate ...... 467 32. Puppy farming – Introduction of legislation to outlaw ...... 467 33. Public swimming pools – Guidelines for use of chloramine ...... 468 34. Genito-Urinary Medicine Clinic – Number of new attendances ...... 469 35. Independent review body – Number of complaints considered; costs ...... 469 Order of the Day ...... 471 3. Disability Discrimination Act 2006 – Statement by the Minister for Social Care ...... 471 Announcement of Royal Assent ...... 474 4. Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee – Statement by the Chairman ...... 474 5. Isle of Man College Construction Crafts and Engineering, Phase 1 – Expenditure approved ...... 475 6. Economic Policy Review Committee: Open Skies – First Report and recommendations – Debate commenced ...... 495 The Court adjourned at 5.08 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.35 p.m...... 508 Economic Policy Review Committee: Open Skies – Debate concluded – First Report received and recommendations accepted ...... 508 7. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee: The Provision of Breast Care – First Report received ...... 520 8. Appointments Commission – Mrs Judith Watson appointed ...... 523 9. European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 – European Union (Iran Sanctions) (Proliferation) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2013 approved ...... 524 10. Town and Country Planning Act 1999 – Town and Country Planning Act 1999 (Extension to the Territorial Seas) (No. 2) Regulations 2013 approved ...... 525 11. Licensing and Registration of Vehicles Act 1985 – Vehicle Duty Order 2013 approved. 527 12. Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 – Excepted Vehicles (Amendment of Schedule 5 to the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986) Order 2013 approved ...... 531 13. Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Value Added Tax (Flat-Rate Valuation of Supplies of Fuel for Private Use) Order 2013 approved...... 532 14-15. Fisheries Act 2012 – Sea Fisheries (Baie ny Carrickey Closed Area) Regulations 2013 approved – Baie ny Carrickey (Restrictions on Fishing for Lobster and Crab) Regulations 2013 approved ...... 533 16-18. Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 – Housing (Definition of Flat or House in Multiple Occupation) Order 2013 approved – Housing (Registration) Regulations 2013 approved – Housing (Standards) Regulations 2013 approved ...... 534 19. Sunbeds Act 2013 – Sunbeds (Prescribed Information and Notices) Regulations 2013 approved ...... 537 20. Misuse of Drugs Act 1976 – Misuse of Drugs (Controlled Drug Specification) (MDAI) Order 2013 approved ...... 538 21. Castletown Town Commissioners – Use of Inquiries (Evidence) Act 2003 re inquiry into scheme to reduce numbers – Motion carried ...... 540
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22. Government Armed Forces Champion – Motion carried ...... 541 23. Select Committee on Petition for Redress of Sarah Lee Watterson – Debate commenced ...... 542 Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to complete Order Paper ...... 547 Select Committee on Petition for Redress of Sarah Lee Watterson – Debate concluded – Mr Henderson, Mr Thomas and Mrs Cannell elected ...... 548 24. Petition for Redress of Michael Geoffrey Speers – Debate adjourned sine die ...... 551 25. Select Committee on Petition for Redress of Philip James Walmsley – Mrs Beecroft, Mr Turner and Mr Gawne elected ...... 557 26. Social insurance scheme – Amended motion carried ...... 564 Congratulations to the Clerk of the Council on award of Law degree ...... 570 Christmas wishes...... 570 The Council withdrew...... 570 House of Keys ...... 570 The House adjourned at 9.45 p.m...... 570
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Tynwald
The Court met at 10.30 a.m.
[MADAM PRESIDENT in the Chair]
The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please rise for the President of Tynwald.
The President: Moghrey mie, Hon. Members.
5 Members: Moghrey mie, Madam President.
The President: The Chaplain will lead us in prayer.
PRAYERS The Chaplain of the House of Keys
Leave of absence granted
The President: Hon. Members, the Lord Bishop and the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Crowe, 10 have leave of absence.
Papers laid before the Court
The President: I call on the Clerk to lay papers.
The Clerk: Ta mee cur roish y Whaiyl ny pabyryn enmyssit ayns ayrn nane jeh’n Chlaare Obbyr. 15 I lay before the Court the papers listed at Item 1 of the Order Paper.
European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 European Union (Iran Sanctions) (Proliferation) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2013 [SD No 0408/13] Town and Country Planning Act 1999 Town and Country Planning Act 1999 (Extension to the Territorial Seas) (No. 2) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0410/13] Licensing and Registration of Vehicles Act 1985 Vehicle Duty Order 2013 [SD No 0382/13] Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1996 Excepted Vehicles (Amendment of Schedule 5 to the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986) Order 2013 [SD No 0390/13]
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Value Added Tax Act 1996 Value Added Tax (Flat-Rate Valuation of Supplies of Fuel for Private Use) Order 2013 [SD No 0391/13] Fisheries Act 2012 Sea Fisheries (Baie ny Carrickey Closed Area) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0376/13] Baie ny Carrickey (Restrictions on Fishing for Lobster and Crab) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0379/13] Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 Housing (Definition of Flat or House in Multiple Occupation) Order 2013 [SD No 0377/13] Housing (Registration) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0380/13] Housing (Standards) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0378/13] Sunbeds Act 2013 Sunbeds (Prescribed Information and Notices) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0395/13] Misuse of Drugs 1976 Misuse of Drugs (Controlled Drug Specification) (MDAI) Order 2013 [SD No 0375/13]
Reports First Report of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee 2013/14: the Provision of Breast Care [PP No 0159/13]
Note: The following items are not the subject of motions on the Order Paper.
Documents subject to negative resolution European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 Iran Sanctions (Proliferation) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0409/13]
Documents subject to no procedure Tobacco Products Duty Act 1986 Tobacco Products (Description of Products) (Amendment) Order 2013 [SD No 0388/13] Tobacco Products (Amendment) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0389/13] Designs Registered Designs (Isle of Man) Order 2013 [SI No 2533/13] Trade Marks Trade Marks (Isle of Man) Order 2013 [SI No 2601/13] Patents Patents (Isle of Man) Order 2013 [SI No 2602/13]
Appointed Day Orders Bribery Act 2013 Bribery Act 2013 (Appointed Day) Order 2013 [SD No 0407/13] Sunbeds Act 2013 Sunbeds Act 2013 (Appointed Day) Order 2013 [SD No 0394/13] Regulation of Care Act 2013 Regulation of Care Act 2013 (Appointed Day) (No. 1) Order 2013 [SD No 0411/13]
Reports Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme Report for 2012/13 (revised) [GD No 0057/13] Road Transport Licensing Committee Annual Report for the year ended 31st March 2013 [GD No 0062/13] Council of Ministers Response to the Economic Policy Review Committee First Report 2013/14: Open Skies [GD No 0064/13] [This item is relevant to the Economic Policy Review Committee Report [PP No 0132/13] which is due to be debated at this sitting as Item 6]
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Economic Policy Review Committee Second Report 2013/14: Government Support for the Sefton Group [PP No 0156/13] [In accordance with Tynwald's resolution of 18th January 2011 this report will be considered, along with the Government’s response, no later than the second sitting after this one.] Tynwald Annual Report for the Parliamentary Year 1st October 2012 to 30th September 2013 [PP No 0157/13] Manx National Insurance Fund Account for the Year Ended 31st March 2013 [GD No 0059/13] Regulation of Care Act 2013 Inspection Guidelines [GD No 0061/13] Department of Economic Development report on the Isle of Man Retail Sector Strategy [GD No 0063/13]
Questions for Oral Answer
CHIEF MINISTER
1. Protecting Children Board – Legislation to put on a statutory basis
The Hon. Member for Garff (Mr Speaker) to ask the Chief Minister:
Whether it is intended to put the Protecting Children Board on a statutory basis; and, if so, what the timetable is for this legislation?
The President: We turn to our Question Paper, Hon. Members. I call on the Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Speaker, to ask the Question standing in his name. 20 The Speaker: I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name.
The President: The Chief Minister to reply.
25 The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, the arrangements for ensuring that children are protected continue to evolve and have also recently featured as part of the review undertaken by the external independent inspection. The results of the inspection will become clear early in 2014 and the Government is committed to ensuring the matter is thoroughly considered and that an appropriate response is swiftly implemented where any changes are 30 required. It is intended that, once the inspection report is received, a full review of any new issues and any outstanding issues, such as the vires for the Protecting Children Board, will be addressed in one action plan, which will include any necessary legislative changes which may be progressed. As currently proposed, should it transpire to be the correct Bill for such issues, the planned 35 Education Bill could incorporate the necessary legislation. I cannot rule out a separate Bill being required though. The Education Bill is currently being progressed as a highly-priority Bill and is likely to be introduced into the branches in the 2014-15 session. The approach will be worked up in liaison with the Chief Secretary's Office and the Protecting Children Board. 40 Subject to Council’s agreement, the legislation will address the following issues: Protecting Children Board constitution; information sharing and data protection concerns; vires to carry out serious case and other multi-agency case reviews and audits; and child protection procedures.
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I must stress that the current arrangements for the Board are that the independent chair’s role is advisory to the Council of Ministers. The Board is a governance-level body which is 45 intended to facilitate cross-Government and third sector working, promote continuous improvement, and it also seeks to ensure that Government makes proper arrangements and implements any learning points from child protection incidents both within the Island and the United Kingdom. Mindful of the data protection legislation and a person's privacy and other rights, it does not 50 handle or process any confidential case information without any necessary consent having been sought or secured. As legislation generally takes more than a few months, as a temporary measure it is proposed that the appointment of an independent reviewer will be considered by the Council of Ministers on recommendation of the independent chair, should the need arise – for example, if there is a 55 need for a serious case review following a child death.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you. 60 This news is very welcome. Does the Chief Minister think that the fact that the current child protection policy is bought off the shelf from the company which writes the same policy for councils in England and Wales, where of course the underlying legislation is more complex and detailed… Does this mean we will have to incorporate more English law into the Isle of Man to make the English procedures that we follow legal? 65 The President: Chief Minister to reply.
The Chief Minister: I think it is likely, Madam President, that, as often happens in Manx legislation, we will look to the UK for the initial framework to consider this legislation; but I 70 would hope at the end of the day, when the Bill is finally put together, it will be tailored and appropriate to the needs of the Isle of Man and not for other jurisdictions.
The President: A further supplementary, Mr Speaker.
75 Mr Speaker: Madam President, the Chief Minister mentioned serious case reviews. Can I just ask him about the vires that a fully independent Protecting Children Board will have? Given that these reviews take place when there has been a failure in the child protection system, will the legislation recognise the need for separation of powers? Will the Protecting Children Board, which is responsible for creating and overseeing child protection policy, still be tasked with 80 investigating failures in that policy – in effect, investigating itself, as happens now under the non-statutory procedures?
The President: Chief Minister.
85 The Chief Minister: Madam President, I understand the point the Hon. Member is making, but I am not in a position at this stage to give a definitive answer as to exactly what shape this legislation will take until we have the final recommendations presented to us – but I am sure those points will be taken on board.
90 The President: Supplementary, the Hon. Member, Mr Houghton.
Mr Houghton: Yes, thank you, Madam President. If the Chief Minister could advise what powers the Board has now to deal with social workers who have failed in their duties? ______410 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
95 The President: Not quite related to the original Question, Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Yes. I do not have that information, Madam President.
Mr Houghton: Madam President, if he could find that information and forward it to this 100 Court I would be most grateful.
The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker.
The Chief Minister: Sorry, Madam President – if the Hon. Member could contact us with the 105 specific instance of what he is asking for, that would help.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you, Madam President. 110 Can I ask the Chief Minister is there to be an interim arrangement for serious case reviews until we get the legislation that puts them onto a proper statutory footing – an arrangement to replace the current administrative procedures that we have, which put the Board itself at risk and do not give full justice to individual families?
115 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: To the best of my knowledge, Madam President, there will be no interim arrangements. We will continue with the existing arrangements until the new process is put in place. 120 The President: Supplementary question, Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. Like Mr Speaker, I welcome the Chief Minister's announcement and look forward to taking 125 part in the debate about the Protecting Children Board. Can I ask the Chief Minister, given he said things like ‘high-priority Education Bill’ and that sort of thing, can the Chief Minister update us on what the timetable and composition of the legislative timetable will be, in writing, after this Court, please?
130 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Is the Hon. Member asking about the entire legislative programme, or in relation to this particular case?
135 The President: I imagine in relation to this particular Question. Hon. Member.
Mr Thomas: In fact, Madam President... It is just in October I believe the Chief Minister undertook to provide, as soon as possible, an updated legislative programme for Government, 140 and I believe that would be helpful at this stage.
The President: Chief Minister, do you want to comment?
The Chief Minister: I assume, from what the Hon. Member is asking, it is the entire 145 Government legislative programme, and that is being drawn up presently and will be circulated in due course. ______411 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell.
Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. 150 Can the Chief Minister advise where the preparation of the Education Bill is at? Is it in draft form, or has it yet to be written? Further, if it is found that in fact the Education Bill is not the appropriate vehicle for containing these very essential and important provisions, will there be a separate Bill; and if so, who will be responsible for pursuing that and putting it to another place?
155 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: If the Hon. Member had listened to the Answer, Madam President, she would have heard me say that it is possible that the Education Bill is the appropriate vehicle for this. It is in the process of being drafted at the moment, but if it is ultimately not decided that 160 this is the most appropriate method, there will be a standalone independent Bill.
Mrs Cannell: Yes, when?
The President: Final supplementary, Mr Speaker. 165 The Speaker: Thank you, Madam President. The Chief Minister mentioned data protection. Is he concerned that the current Protecting Children Board setup, which has to handle sensitive and serious personal data when conducting a serious case review, cannot be, in fact, registered under the Data Protection Act currently? 170 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: I am not aware that there is a particular problem there, Madam President, but once again Mr Speaker has made a series of questions and statements over the 175 last few months… It would be very helpful if the Hon. Member would come and talk to us to highlight exactly what his concerns are; then we can ensure that they are considered as this Bill is being drafted.
2. Exceeding ministerial powers – Recourse available
The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Chief Minister:
When a Minister is found to have gone beyond the limit of his powers, what recourse is available to – (a) the Chief Minister; (b) the Council of Ministers; (c) Tynwald Members; and (d) members of the public?
The President: Question 2. The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft. 180 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I ask the Question in my name.
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The President: Chief Minister to reply. 185 The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, there is no generic answer which covers every circumstance which could apply to the four categories mentioned in this Question. Much would depend on the specific scenario, the legislation which provides for related issues and the implications of any actions which are perceived to have gone beyond powers and adversely 190 affected a person. For example, a person may seek redress through a regulator; an appeal mechanism, if one provides for the specific scenario; or they may consider taking legal action to quash the relevant action through doleance proceedings… [Inaudible] damages, for example through legal proceedings for misfeasance in public office. 195 Much would also depend on whether the Minister was acting on advice and in good faith and what information was made available to the Minister at the time which led to the specific scenario. In very general terms, in respect of (a), the Chief Minister, ultimately, suitable recourse may be deemed as requiring the Chief Minister to withdraw concurrence of appointment and to 200 inform His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor that it may no longer be appropriate for the Minister to hold office. In respect of (b), as the Minister is the Department, under the Government Departments Act 1987, the Council of Ministers may consider such a matter appears to it to affect the public interest, and following consultation with the Department it may decide to give to the 205 Department direction. In respect of (c), Tynwald Members may decide to report the matter to the Chief Minister; or, if the matter is in relation to parliamentary business, to the Members’ Standards Committee. In respect of (d), as I have previously explained, the Minister is the Department, which can sue and be sued. 210 It would very much depend on the circumstance, and I do not think it is appropriate for me to provide generic advice on individual matters. If the Hon. Member has a specific matter she wishes to raise privately with me, I may be in a better position to better understand the rationale of her Question.
215 The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Could the Chief Minister clarify then, in a situation where it is shown that the Minister has gone beyond his powers, beyond his statutory powers, who would he actually expect to take the 220 action if this was shown? Would it be the President of Tynwald? The Speaker of the House of Keys? Would it be a matter for the Chief Constable? Is it legal for Ministers to go beyond their powers? I would just be grateful for a bit of clarity on that. Also, if I may ask about the situation regarding collective responsibility: are not all the Ministers collectively responsible for the decisions that are being made? We are told that it is 225 collective responsibility that governs all these decisions. Is it the same when things go wrong?
The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: I have already answered the first part of that question, Madam President; 230 and on the second point, collective responsibility applies to all the Council of Ministers on the decisions that have been taken.
The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft.
235 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. ______413 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Could the chief Minister possibly give a bit of clarity with regard to his restructuring of Government? Will he be considering the appointment of a Tynwald Auditor General so that the public have an avenue of recourse without having to dip into their pockets if they feel a Minister has gone beyond his statutory powers? 240 The President: That does not relate to the Question, and Tynwald would appoint an Auditor General for Tynwald. The Hon. Member, Mr Karran.
245 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, a supplementary: could the Ard-shirveishagh assure this Hon. Court that if Ministers break the law it will not be okay so long as it is part of the interest as far as Government is concerned? Will he assure this Court of that – it would not be a satisfactory arrangement?
250 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: There are clear guidelines, Madam President, for ministerial performance and the Hon. Member is well aware of that.
255 The President: A further supplementary, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: A supplementary, Eaghtyrane: would the Ard-shirveishagh agree that we have seen great improvements from the days where, in CoMin, there was an unofficial policy that Departments did not prosecute Departments; and can he assure this Court that we are not going 260 back to those days when things were far too cosy? The great improvements we have seen in recent years on those sort of fundamental policies that were there when I first entered this Hon. Court…
The President: Chief Minister, not quite related. 265 The Chief Minister: Madam President, I am not sure what that question has to do with the Question on the Order Paper, but I can assure the Hon. Member that ministerial behaviour is governed by their own terms of reference, and that is the way the Council of Ministers operate.
TREASURY
3. Small businesses – Access to loans
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
What steps the Treasury will take to improve access to loans for small businesses on the Island?
270 The President: Question 3. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name.
The President: The Minister for the Treasury to reply. 275 ______414 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. As part of my preparations for the forthcoming Budget, which I will present to this Court in the New Year, I and my colleagues in the Treasury have been having a series of meetings with businesses of all sizes around the Island. We also meet business people regularly in many 280 different circumstances – some formal, some informal. I can say to the Hon. Member for Onchan, on the basis of the wide range of information which I have available to me, that I do not feel that there is a general problem for businesses in obtaining finance and so I do not consider that Treasury needs to take any action at this time. As I would say to all Hon. Members, however, if they are aware of any particular difficulties 285 being experienced by a constituent, they are very welcome to approach me, or alternatively my officers, and we will help if we are able to do so.
The President: Supplementary –
290 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, thanking the Shirveishagh for his very co-operative reply, does he not agree that the fact is that, with this great spending power as far as Government is concerned in the Manx economy, many people may not be as frank as far as their concerns? In view of the fact that the actions taken by the UK government recently to improve access to loans for small business, does he not feel that we should be following if we want to get as many 295 people legitimately out of the public sector into the private sector, and one of the ways forward is to create the small business environment as a way forward in order to sort out the employment situation for the future?
The President: Treasury Minister. 300 The Minister: I would certainly agree that the employment opportunities that are available to our young people, and older people as well, should be as wide as possible. I am somewhat reassured by the number of people who are employed and also those who are self-employed. The figures are very encouraging when we compare them on a year-on-year 305 basis. I would also like to refer the hon. questioner to the Department of Economic Development’s schemes to support business. A understand that the report is likely to be placed before next month’s sitting of this Hon. Court, and that will give further clarity and guidelines as to what Government is doing for businesses of all shapes and sizes on this Island. 310 The President: A further supplementary, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree that we would totally agree that the likes of the business start-up scheme is one of the success stories as far as the Island is 315 concerned? Allowing for the fact that you have made the statement that you would be happy to discuss it with people, I will do my best, and hope other people listening to this will make representations to see the Minister about the fact that the reality is not as easy –
320 The President: Do you have a question, sir?
Mr Karran: – as he says, as far as that is concerned. (Laughter and interjections)
The President: Minister. (A Member: Yes.) 325 The Minister: There is not a five-lever lock on my door. He is very welcome to give me a call, come and sit down, and we will talk through the issues in an informal way. I am sure that he ______415 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
would – and I would as well – welcome the opportunity to discuss specific instances that he might have, and that would certainly focus the debate better, I would suggest. 330 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quirk.
Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Can I ask the Minister when will he be meeting maybe the Chamber of Commerce in the New 335 Year, or the construction industry? I am just wondering whether he can give us an insight into those small businesses.
The President: Treasury Minister.
340 The Minister: Madam President, I have a meeting scheduled with the Construction Forum for next month – I cannot remember the exact date, but I have a meeting scheduled with them. Last week, interestingly enough, I did meet with representatives from the Isle of Man Chamber of Commerce.
345 The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh Tashtee not agree that it would be very difficult for the likes of the Construction Forum or the Chamber of Commerce – allowing that the construction industry is 80% dependent on taxpayers' money to keep going – to be able to be as 350 frank and honest… You do not bite the hand that feeds you. What assurances is he getting that he is actually getting what he needs to hear and not what he wants to hear?
The President: Not quite related to the Question, but Minister… 355 The Minister: I think the hon. gentleman has made a very good point. Most of these people I have known for a considerable time and I can assure the Hon. Member that they definitely do not pull punches.
4. Personal tax information – Security re foreign tax authorities
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
If he will make a statement on the security of personal tax information given to foreign tax authorities?
360 The President: Question 4. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name.
The President: Minister for the Treasury to reply. 365 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. The provision of personal tax information to foreign authorities can only take place if there is an international agreement in place between the Isle of Man and that country and it is governed by the terms of the agreement under which it is provided. This includes confidentiality ______416 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
370 provisions which apply limitations on use and disclosure of any information exchanged. All information provided is transmitted by secure means, including password protection; encryption of documents or disks; secure e-mail links; and, where appropriate, transported by a bone fide courier service with document tracking facilities.
375 The President: Supplementary question.
Mr Karran: Thanking the Shirveishagh, what safeguards can be put in to stop personal tax information being used for political ends by foreign tax authorities?
380 The President: I think you have answered it, Minister, but you may wish to comment.
The Minister: I have to say that that is always a concern and it is a legitimate concern as well. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) undertake a physical review of all countries which enter into Convention on Mutual Assistance in Tax Matters 385 agreements. They actually go to the country and do a full on-site audit just to make sure that there are appropriate arrangements in place to ensure that the confidentiality of information is respected and that it will not be used for inappropriate purposes. We also have the ability to refuse a request for information if we feel it is inappropriate and is likely to be used for political processes.
5. Water and Sewerage Authority – Sinking fund
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
What safeguards are in place to ensure that the Isle of Man Water and Sewerage Authority’s sinking fund for renewal of water infrastructure will not be applied to offset the Manx Electricity Authority’s operational or structural deficit?
390 The President: Question 5. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name.
The President: The Minister for the Treasury to reply. 395 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. In 1999, the Water Authority’s Strategic Asset Management Programme was approved by Tynwald; and in 2000, Treasury issued a bond for £75 million to provide the necessary funding for the infrastructure renewal programme. The receipts from this bond were transferred to the 400 Water Authority to pay for key capital expenditure programmes until the Authority was able to be self-funding. To enable the Authority to be in a position to self-fund all revenue and capital commitments, Tynwald also approved, in 1999, a 20-year schedule of water rate increases with the threefold aim of repaying in full the £75 million bond by March 2030, paying the annual dividend on the 405 bond at a cost of £4.2 million, and financing further capital expenditure once the initial £75 million raised from the bond had been fully utilised. The Water Authority established a repayment fund in 2005 into which surplus income over expenditure is invested to achieve the aim of repaying the £75 million in 2030. To date, the
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Authority has made regular payments into the sinking fund and is on target to meet the 410 repayment liability to Treasury of £75 million by that date. However, the responsibility and ultimate obligation to meet the repayment to investors at the maturity date of the bond in 2030 remains with Treasury and not the Isle of Man Water and Sewerage Authority. It is in this respect that the Treasury maintain oversight of the financial model in place to generate capital required and monitor the performance of the sinking fund to 415 deliver the necessary return. The prospective merger of the Water and Sewerage Authority with the MEA will not remove the obligation of Treasury to ensure that the bond is repaid when due, nor will it detract from the oversight presently exercised in that respect. Hon. Members will acknowledge that, as a result of analysis undertaken in recent months, 420 the Council of Ministers has concluded that the proposed merger of the Water and Sewerage Authority and the MEA may bring about savings and synergies that suggest that the debt repayment programme can be funded by the merged entity without recourse to further Treasury funding. If, following the period of consultation and consideration of this matter by this Hon. Court, 425 the decision is taken to implement this merger, it is expected that the combined revenues of the Manx Utilities Authority will be made available to meet the full operational activities and the debt obligations of the combined Authority. Thank you, Madam President.
430 The President: Supplementary question, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh Tashtee assure us that this is not being done just to raid the sinking fund… and not addressing the real problems as far as the MEA, as far as being… [Inaudible] us with £410 million-worth of debt in the first place? 435 How does he reassure this Hon. Court that this is not just a cash grab to solve a funding issue to get you over the General Election? Will he be making the information available as far as this is concerned?
The President: Minister. 440 The Minister: I would just like to take the last comment first. This is not short-termism, far from it; this is long-term strategic planning. So it is not, as the hon. gentleman has just put it – or he inferred – a cunning move to get us to the General Election. It is definitely not just a cash grab. What we are trying to do is to put a structure in place 445 which will generate the returns and the cash savings to enable both Authorities to meet their financial obligations. I would suggest to the hon. questioner that it does address the real issues and it is not a raid on the sinking fund. There are measures in place to fund the sinking fund so that by 2030 there will be the £75 million there to deal with the issue. 450 I can appreciate the Hon. Member’s concern, and what we will do is… prior to the debate which is scheduled for next month, I am quite happy to share the financial projections with Hon. Members and to talk it through with them; so, if there are any queries, any questions, we will go through them with you. I can say to Hon. Members that there has been considerable financial analysis done, 455 stretching out over many years into the future; and as I said before, in the interest of openness and transparency, and to ensure that the Members are better informed, we are certainly happy to share that with you.
The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell. 460 ______418 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. The Hon. Minister for Treasury said that there will be a combined income if this merger should go ahead. Is he saying then that, should the merger go ahead, if combined income… in other words, income across the board is combined, doesn't that then suggest that there will be 465 combined outgoings also? So, following on from the original Question, where will that leave the debt of all the boards? Will they all share the pain and gain at the end of the day; and what will the implication be for the water rates?
470 The President: Minister.
The Minister: As I said, I am quite happy to share the financial information. Without going into the details and the… [Inaudible] here as part of the Question process, we will share all that information with Hon. Members that is in the cashflow forecast and the financial projections 475 going forward. What I would say is that, at the moment, Treasury has the ability, through a direction, to manage the cashflow of the Statutory Boards to meet their financial obligations; because their financial obligation is to the Treasury, and then, from the Treasury, we have financial obligations to the external holders of the debt which has been raised for the Water Authority and the MEA. 480 The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I thank the Minister for saying that he is going to share the financial information before the 485 debate next month, but allowing for the fact that it is not a given that they will merge – you may not get Tynwald approval – if that does not happen, what are your current plans for repaying the £200 million which is due in… I think it is 2034, is it? That is a current situation you must have a plan for now and without divulging your cash flows for the merge operation.
490 The President: That does stray from the Question yet again today. Minister.
The Minister: It does. What I would say is that we are taking the long-term strategic view. We have been accused of short-termism in the past. 495 I would encourage Hon. Members to enter into the debate with an open mind. This is not a smash and grab. We are planning for the future; we are planning for the next generation. To quote the Hon. Member for Onchan, we want to leave a debt of gratitude for the next generation.
500 The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Could the Shirveishagh Tashtee just clarify the point that there is not presently a sinking fund plan without using the water board’s sinking fund to help them with the MEA? Could he circulate to Hon. Members the debt that is having to be serviced on a weekly basis, 505 as far as Government is concerned, for the MEA debt, so that Hon. Members are more fully aware of the problems that you have because of the bad governance over the MEA?
The President: Minister.
510 The Minister: We are not raiding the Water Authority’s cashflow – nothing could be further from the truth – but it would be remiss of us, I would suggest, Madam President, if we did not
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look at every avenue to become more efficient, to save money, to generate cash which at the end of the day could be used to meet our long-term liabilities. The Hon. Member did ask how much is the cost of the debt burden on the MEA. That is 515 reflected in the MEA accounts, but the £185 million bond currently has an interest charge of £9.9 million a year; so we have to plan for the future, and that is exactly what we intend to do.
The President: Final supplementary, Mr Karran.
520 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Minister stop playing with words? The fact is that we are not talking about cashflow; we are talking about what is the present strategic policy of how they address the issue as far as the MEA's debt is concerned. Is it is not the fact that there is no strategic policy without the amalgamation of the Water and Sewerage Authority and the sinking fund having to be part of that process? 525 Would he also not agree that the reality was that the Water Authority had to go it alone and had to go and stand on a General Election thing of saying that people were going to have to pay through their rates for their water because they got no support from the Treasury at the time for such a move that has worked out to be to the advantage of the people of the Isle of Man?
530 The President: Minister.
The Minister: The sinking fund will not be affected by this proposed merger. It stands apart and our financial projections will demonstrate that. The hon. gentleman did say we are not talking about cashflow. In certain parlance, cash is 535 king. If we do not have cash, we cannot fund anything.
6. National Insurance and old age pensions – Treasury policy
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
What his policy is on (a) the development of an old age pension based on the number of years worked instead of age; (b) waiving the upper limit of National Insurance contributions for employees; and (c) continuing National Insurance contributions by persons working full-time who are over pension age; and what work the Treasury has done to cost such policies?
The President: Question 6. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name.
540 The President: The Minister for the Treasury to reply.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. As the Hon. Member will be aware, the Department of Social Care and the Treasury are currently undertaking a comprehensive review of the Social Security Benefits and National 545 Insurance Scheme operated in the Island. This review will examine all aspects of the current Scheme, including how entitlement to benefits will rise and what level of National Insurance contributions will be required to maintain the long-term affordability of benefits funded from the Manx National Insurance Fund.
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This report will be published in the summer of 2014 and Hon. Members will be given the 550 opportunity to debate its recommendations at that time. I therefore feel that it would not be appropriate at this stage to pre-empt what the recommendations might be. However, what I would say is that all options are being considered, and should any Hon. Member have any questions concerning the review, they are welcome to speak to either myself or the officers concerned from Treasury, and my colleagues in the Department of Social Care. 555 The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh Tashtee not agree that the present 30 years’ contributions system in the UK just does not stack up as a responsible policy as far as the future 560 provisions as far as pensions are concerned? Will that be part of any equation? Would the Shirveishagh not agree that it seems unreasonable that everybody is hiding behind the Minister for Social Care, when the fact is that these decisions need to be addressed as a Council of Ministers and as a parliamentary assembly; and does he not feel that the reply is wrong and it would be far better, for the Treasury's view on these important issues, to be open 565 and out there so that people know that it is not just the Minister for Social Care on these issues?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: I have to say that I have a good working relationship with my colleague in 570 Social Care and we have been working together now for quite a long time. The Hon. Member is right – there are what we regard as inconsistencies with the Scheme as currently framed, and we will take the opportunity to have a look at everything going forward. So it is very much a clean sheet of paper and I would welcome any input that the hon. gentleman may feel that he is able to give us because we would welcome all ideas.
INFRASTRUCTURE
7. Peel Road, Douglas – Progress of reconstruction scheme
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What the current progress is with the Peel Road reconstruction scheme and whether it is on schedule?
575 The President: Question 7. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Question in my name.
580 The President: The Minister for Infrastructure to reply.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you. The works to Peel Road are making good progress now, with several major elements of the work being complete, including strengthening of Pulrose Bridge to accommodate heavier traffic; 585 widening of Pulrose Road junction near the former Training Centre to make it easier for traffic turning left from Peel Road onto Pulrose Road; reconstruction of the footways, including kerbing between Brown Bobby and Quarter Bridge on the outbound side; installation of improved ______421 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
drainage systems along the completed sections. Work is now underway on carriageway and footway reconstruction between Quarter Bridge and Mile End Court, kerbing between Belmont 590 Hill and Burleigh Manor, and reconstruction of the central lane at the Pulrose Road junction. The outstanding work consists of the remaining areas of carriageway and footway reconstruction, including both Pulrose Road and Circular Road junctions, the final surface course, traffic signal installation, white lining and signing. The works are currently likely to finish well within the original contracted 80-week 595 construction period, although the oncoming winter weather will be a factor in determining the actual completion date. Inbound traffic is now two-way between Quarter Bridge and Circular Road. Access to all businesses and properties is being maintained and I thank them for their co-operation. I have maintained a close watching brief on this scheme throughout and have made 600 representations where needed. For example, traffic signals were manned at morning and evening peak times as well as at lunchtime to keep traffic moving, following my intervention. The original programme was for completion by mid-September 2014 and the project is currently on programme to be completed considerably in advance of that. As advised at the start, generally the works are going well. The contractor has applied 605 additional weekend resources, and I thank him for that as he was not required to do so in the contract, but has done so in response to my comments. One of the challenges of this scheme has been the number of frontages onto Peel Road. It is, of course, possible to complete projects like this more quickly; however, this involves occupying more of the road at any one time, which can result in more disruption to traffic and loss of 610 access to properties. My Department has to strike a balance between the desire to complete work quickly and the amount of disruption caused to road users and those living and working nearby. I accept that this work is taking some time and that it is disruptive. It has also become clear to me that the Department needs to ensure in future that a more tightly negotiated contract is in 615 place to further minimise such disruption and maximise the time spent on site. I must make it clear, however, that Peel Road was in a very poor condition and, as one of the most important stretches of road on the Island, there was little choice but to undertake a full reconstruction – something that has been spoken about all the time that I have had the honour to be in public life, which is almost 30 years. 620 The President: Supplementary question, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I thank the Shirveishagh for his positive response and certainly would invite him to agree that 625 I have always supported these measures. Would he agree to relook at the one-way system, because as of this morning there were traffic lights in place and it was one-way operation near Pulrose Bridge. I acknowledge his input to encourage the contractor.
630 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Yes, the Hon. Member is right, and I should have pointed out that there are works going on to the traffic island and they are requiring traffic lights at the moment; but those are only temporary and only for a short period. 635 I do acknowledge his support for this and other matters.
The President: The Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle.
Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. ______422 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
640 I thank the Minister for his lengthy Answer, but he missed one of my pet projects off, so I would just like clarification. Can the Minister confirm when the resurfacing of the railway track from Douglas to Crosby with recycled hard-core from Peel Road will be taking place, which was part of the scheme? (A Member: Hear, hear.) 645 Also, given my concerns for the safety of the cyclists going into Douglas, can he comment on any provision which, as the departmental Member, I tried to put in place for cyclists using Peel Road to get into Douglas and out? Thank you.
650 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Yes, I can reply in the affirmative to both points. I would like to thank a number of Hon. Members in this Hon. Court, including Mrs Beecroft, Mr Quayle, Mr Thomas and others who are very keen that cycling provision should be provided 655 within the scheme. It is the first such scheme on the Island which is going to incorporate such provision, and what has been agreed, in discussion with various user groups, is that on an ongoing basis we will meet with those representing the cycling lobby to make sure that this important provision continues in the future. 660 In relation to the original point the Hon. Member, Mr Quayle, made about the old railway line, yes, the recycled materials are going to go on there and I am sure that that is going to constitute a real improvement to that important leisure route.
The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk. 665 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Can I ask the Minister regarding the construction side over the Christmas period and the New Year: is the contractor going to be closing down; and if he is, would this not be a retrograde step? Would it be an opportunity to… because it is tight working in that particular area, would 670 he not agree with me… the advantages that would be taken over the Christmas period?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: I am not in a position to respond because I did not have notice that that point 675 was going to be raised, but it is normal within the construction sector to have time off at Christmas and I think that is probably what is going to happen. If I am incorrect, then I will obviously come back to Hon. Members.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft. 680 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I am grateful to the Minister for acknowledging that negotiations should have been conducted in a tighter away, but could he just clarify really why they were not? Is it the central procurement or… What was the problem in this case? Because it has resulted in an awful long 685 time for this work to carry on. Would he really agree with me that never have so many people been messed about for so long by so few?
The Minister: No, I would not, and I think that is a cheap point, really. I think that is 690 unnecessary.
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What I would say is there are lessons to be learned. This contract is different than any contract which has been previously issued inasmuch as a great deal of the work is being carried out by the private sector, rather than being done internally, in-house, by the Department's directly employed labour, and there are lessons to be learned from that. 695 I again put on record my thanks for the co-operation of the private contractor who, after hearing my comments, has applied additional resources to try and make sure the scheme is finished in a timely manner. What we will be doing… and it is not something that I was involved in, but officials will be in the future trying to make sure that, when they are negotiating with private sector contractors, 700 the scheme is tightly organised and they maximise the time on site and minimise disruption, which obviously we are all here to try and do.
8. Douglas promenade – Progress of reconstruction scheme
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What the current progress is with phase one of the Douglas Promenade reconstruction scheme?
The President: Question 8. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 705 Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Question in my name.
The President: The Minister for Infrastructure to reply.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Yes, thank you. 710 Work on the first phase of the major Douglas promenades refurbishment started in August and is scheduled to be completed on time and ahead of next year’s TT. The work has focused on the area from Peveril Square to Victoria Street and the Royal Bank of Scotland building on the former Villiers Hotel site. So far, the new footway outside Peveril Buildings has been completed, as has the work on the adjacent traffic island. The Jubilee Clock 715 was successfully relocated in October to allow the junction of Victoria Street and that side of the promenade to be improved. The area around the clock has been reconstructed with granite paving and is almost complete. The base of the clock will also provide seating, and the footway outside the Jubilee Buildings will incorporate up-lights to illuminate the pillars on the building to enhance the street scene. Improvements have also been made to the surface drainage system. 720 In the New Year, the work will focus on Loch Promenade in the section outside Bordello and La Piazza. The junction into Walpole Avenue will be improved and the road reconstruction on the landward side will also be completed. Currently, the project is approximately one week behind programme; however, the time will be made up over the next few months so that the overall scheme will be completed, as 725 promised, by 23rd May 2014, ahead of TT 2014.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane.
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730 Again, I thank the Minister for his positive report on the matter. Could he just answer what liaison is going on with the businesses across the promenade? Secondly, what is the next phase following the Jubilee Clock area, once that is finished?
The President: Minister. 735 The Minister: Yes, in both schemes – in both the Peel Road scheme and the promenade scheme – there is an appointed official who is the direct point of liaison with the businesses and persons who live in areas which are affected. He visits each of the businesses in advance of the scheme coming to have an effect on them and is there, available to liaise and assist if there are 740 any issues as matters go along. In relation to the next phase of the works, those will obviously be subject to Tynwald approval and obviously the works will be carried out in a number of phases, as previously indicated. At this stage, I am not quite able to indicate how far the scheme will go, but I will do that as soon as I can.
9. Ronaldsway Airport – Problems with runway
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
If he will make a statement on the problems with the runway at Ronaldsway? 745 The President: Question 9. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name.
750 The President: The Minister for Infrastructure to reply.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you. I have been made aware that there has been some settlement in the grassed areas to the south of the main runway within the promontory area, which was to be expected with a civil 755 engineering project of the scale that was undertaken in 2008 to 2010. That said, the areas of settlement are being monitored regularly, both locally and by the main contractor and their designer, to ensure the integrity of the structure. These areas of settlement are well away from the runway area and cause no operational problems.
760 The President: Supplementary question, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh tell us what is going to be the remedy as far as this issue is concerned, allowing for the fact I believe it was something in the region of £26 million-worth of taxpayers’ investment in this project? 765 The President: Minister.
The Minister: I am sorry, I am not sure exactly how the works… It is being monitored at this time. If there is a deterioration, then works will be undertaken; but my understanding is that, 770 because of where they are, it is not having any detrimental effect on the work which was carried out to improve the runway facility.
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The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft.
775 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I am just a little bit unclear about exactly where it is – if the Minister could clarified that a bit; and also whether it is covered by warranty. Who is going to pay for the repairs? Presumably, where it has settled, it has dipped down – who is going to pay for the re-levelling of the area?
780 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Yes. It is the grassed areas to the south of the main runway within the promontory area. In relation to the guarantee, it is guaranteed 12 years from completion, which was 2010, so 785 that is until 2022. The contract was how far Balfour Beatty Civil Engineering, Northern Scotland office, and they will be the people who will be responsible.
The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk.
790 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. The same question: has the contractor who did the work been over to see the work and accepted the liability?
The President: Minister. 795 The Minister: I have indicated in the original Answer, Madam President, that the contractor and local expertise are being applied to this issue.
10. Ronaldsway Airport – Problems with new radar system
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What problems are being experienced with the new radar system at Ronaldsway Airport?
The President: Question 10. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. 800 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name.
The President: The Minister for Infrastructure to reply.
805 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you. The work involved in the installation of the new secondary radar and replacement primary radar has not been without its challenges. These are primarily borne out by the fact that there are three very distinct groups involved in the project: the UK regulator, who is overseeing the engineering and safety case documentation; the UK arm of the contractor, who has provided all 810 bar the engineering work; and the Italian arm of the contractor, who has provided the engineering and technology input for both the installation and the documentation. The new radars are fully operational and have been for some considerable time. However, the amount of observations and evidence required to secure approvals for a brand new system, being the first in the British Isles for airport use, has been far greater and more detailed than 815 could have been foreseen. ______426 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
I have been told that the observations are expected to be completed mid-2014, with the granting of a full operating licence rather than a temporary licence.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Karran. 820 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh explain why it is necessary for both old and new radar systems to be operating in tandem? What are the problems as far as the new system, which must have been in use at least for the last two years, and why can’t you replace the old system? Can the Minister inform us of this? 825 Can the Minister also inform us of the issue of who will be held responsible over this issue and how much money was involved with the radar system, which we voted through in this Hon. Court?
The President: Minister. 830 The Minister: The problems with the installation of the new radar were a multitude of issues with the whole installation of the wide area multilateration secondary radar; multiple MLAT sites around the Island – 19 – which raised access, ownership and lease arrangements; documentation issues surrounding language, format and understanding of the United Kingdom 835 regulatory process; complexity of the flight trials; the sheer volume of observation and evidence required to bring a first-of-type MLAT for airport use; and internal issues within CLX UK versus Italy.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran. 840 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh inform this Court of how much cost was involved with this project, allowing for the other project costing us £26 million? On multi-million-pound deals, where they are getting large amounts of consultancy fees, does he not feel that maybe the process, as far as procurement, as far as capital schemes, where 845 these people are getting paid top dollar they should at least be held to account, because they are supposed to be professionals and that is why we are paying them hundreds of thousands of pounds in consultancy fees?
The President: Minister. 850 The Minister: I am sorry, I was not the Minister in 2010 when the project came to Tynwald, so I cannot remember how much it cost. I am sorry. I can find out that information for the Hon. Member and I am happy to come back to him on that point.
855 The President: Supplementary question, Mr Turner, Council.
Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President. Could the Minister explain why the old radar is still operating, given that they informed me, in a letter in 2011, that the current secondary surveillance radar will not be licensed after 860 31st December 2011? They also provided me with documents from the UK authorities confirming such, so could the Minister clarify why indeed the old radar is still operating, if it is out of licence?
The President: Minister. 865 The Minister: It is still operating because an extension has been granted because of the problems that they have had with the new one. ______427 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Karran.
870 Mr Karran: Would the Minister not agree that we well understand that you were not a Minister at the time –
The Minister: I was a Minister.
875 Mr Karran: – but the point is the fact that, with the ministerial block vote, this issue needs to be addressed? Would he not agree that here we are, paying top dollar for consultants as far as these issues are concerned, and what are we getting for their services and what are we doing about creating a proper structural contract where we hold people to account? 880 The Minister: The point I was making, Madam President, which seems to escape the Hon. Member, is I just cannot recall how much this particular scheme cost. Perhaps I should have, in advance, in my preparation –
885 Mr Braidwood: £3.4 million.
The Minister: £3.4 million, I am advised by my colleague in the Treasury. I think the processes in the Treasury are much better than ever they were, and if there were any improvements that could be made for such schemes in the future, I am sure that the 890 Treasury department, in conjunction with the Council of Ministers, would look to put in place such improvements.
The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Turner. You do not want to now? The Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. 895 Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Madam President. Could the Minister confirm that the secondary radar system has worked particularly well, it is a new system, and the concern has been with the primary radar?
900 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Yes, I can confirm that is the case, Madam President.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran. 905 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh, for this Court, agree that the fact is… What is the issue as far as we are paying out sufficient amounts of money as far as consultancy fees? Why do we keep on having these situations, allowing for the fact that yes, it has improved from the £410 million of the MEA, but it had to improve as it was unsustainable as far as capital 910 projects are concerned? Will these people be held to account to justify their fees, if they are not doing the job right?
The Minister: Of course they will be held to account to justify their fees if they are not doing their job right. That is such a basic issue. 915 Mr Karran: Well, it has not happened for the last… [Inaudible] years.
The Minister: Of course people are held to account, Madam President, and anybody who has been in here knows that is the case. ______428 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
920 I think, personally, what might be learned from this is something that we do not normally do is… This is the first of the type in the British Isles. I am not convinced that we need to follow that route. Generally, we follow tried and tested. In this instance, for whatever reason, we have not; and perhaps that is something to be learned. In terms of holding people to account, I can assure the Hon. Member that any Department I 925 am Minister of will certainly do that.
A Member: Hear, hear.
11. Douglas outer harbour – Reason for improvements
The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What the future commercial and domestic needs are for which Douglas outer harbour is being improved?
The President: Question 11. The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas.
930 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name.
The President: The Minister for Infrastructure to reply.
935 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you. The future commercial and domestic needs for which Douglas Harbour will be developed or improved will take account of any change in the vessels the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company or other companies intend to use; the need to replace or refurbish our link spans; and to attract business relating to the operation and maintenance of offshore energy developments and, 940 where possible, the cruise ship industry. In doing this, we will continue to take into account the needs of our fishing and leisure craft users along with those of the RNLI. We do not have specific plans for the development of the outer harbour at this stage, although we are using a draft layout plan of Douglas Harbour as the basis of discussion and consultation with various user groups in order to gain their views. 945 The President: Supplementary question, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Madam President. Can the Minister confirm then what I heard, which is that the use is very imprecise? 950 Therefore, can the Minister give guidance on to what extent this is a priority for the Minister’s Department and for Government in general; and if so, why it is a priority for investment? Are we not just perhaps buying rocks with the money realised from the possible sale of the Nunnery, Parade Street and Lord Street, to dump into the sea at the lifeboat station?
955 The President: Minister.
The Minister: I am not really sure that I understand what the Hon. Member is asking – I am sorry. If he would like to perhaps, in another way, ask the question, I might be able to answer.
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960 The President: Do you want to phrase it in another way, Mr Thomas?
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. My understanding is that the £10 million is for extending the land by the existing lifeboat station and for perhaps those uses that were described. I just wonder why we are doing that 965 with £10 million, which is what I understand is in the Pink Book.
The Minister: There has been money in the Pink Book for a very long time. There are plans which are still fluid and nothing has been finalised as yet. The only thing that has been finalised, I think, is that there requires to be a refurbishment of one of the link spans. 970 In terms of the work, I recall when the Hon. Member for Glenfaba, Mr Anderson was the Minister, he called me and the other representative for South Douglas to a meeting to discuss proposed works at that stage. Nothing has been finalised, and given the present financial climate, things are not progressing at perhaps the pace that they were then.
975 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree that, if there are proposals there, the real proposal that needs to be addressed is the issue of a deep-water berth, (A Member: Yes.) which will be, more likely, a lot more than £10 million? It would also resolve the issue of 980 the mess that we have got into over the User Agreement. What assurances can we have that we are going to have a proper, far-reaching, strategic long-term policy, which this nation needs on that issue, instead of on smaller issues as far as any improvements around the lifeboat station? Would he also not agree that the issue, as far as the redevelopment of the promenade is 985 concerned, is not faffing about around the Peveril Square area, but actually developing a strategic plan to address the issues of rising sea levels? Will he consider the issue of a deep- water berth as part of any proposal in the future?
The President: Minister. 990 The Minister: I think the element of deep-water berth that is being discussed is that which perhaps may facilitate cruise business to the Isle of Man, rather than a deep-water berth that may be required for the general day-to-day traffic to the Isle of Man. There is a requirement for some excavation of the harbour in order to improve facilities, but that is not something which is 995 in the immediate future.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. 1000 I am forming the view that the Steam Packet and the users like that at the harbour are not getting anything out of this outer harbour development. Currently, we are in the healthy situation where the outer harbour users actually pay all of the £3.3 million Douglas outer harbour operating costs. Might we not be ruining that situation and actually ending up with another subsidy to be made with a deficiency payment from taxes if 1005 we are not careful?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: I do not see that as the case. There are discussions around a wide range of 1010 issues to do with the harbour and the relationship with the Steam Packet Company and with the
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User Agreement, which are discussed on an ongoing basis. If the concerns expressed by the Hon. Member were live, then I am sure I would have heard them before now.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran. 1015 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh confirm that the reality of the issue for a deep- water berth is not just for cruise boats, but actually would give them more flexibility for the more traditionally constructed ships being able to come and visit the Island and maybe provide an alternative service, or give more flexibility to the Steam Packet Company as far as being able 1020 to get a boat more off the peg as far as the Island is concerned? Have representations been made about that in these secret meetings to do with the renewing of the User Agreement for another 40-odd years? Have they not raised that issue in the first place about the deep-water berth actually creating more flexibility for themselves or any other operators to open the market up? 1025 The President: Minister.
The Minister: The Hon. Member several times in the last few days – a week – has described secret meetings. Does the Hon. Member believe that we should have our meetings with the 1030 Steam Packet Company in the Villa Marina? (Laughter)
A Member: They would not have it in here.
The Minister: What happens is we have meetings and we come, hopefully, to 1035 recommendations or conclusions; those recommendations or conclusions will then go to the Council of Ministers; the Council of Ministers will agree or otherwise whether that is a correct thing to be followed; and then Tynwald, assured by none other than the Chief Minister, will have their say in whether or not the User Agreement is extended. (Mr Quirk: Hear, hear.) It could not be a more transparent process. 1040 In relation to the deep-water berth, I have already indicated that certain excavation is to take place, when necessary. However, I am glad that at long last the Hon. Member… because others have said for a long time, ‘Oh, if the Steam Packet… Let's just bring in other vessels from around the Irish Sea.’ Well, that is not possible. It is not a situation that is reality, because a number of the vessels around the Irish Sea are longer than the facilities which exist in Douglas 1045 Harbour. That is the prime difficulty. It is the length of vessels, rather than necessarily the depth; although I do accept that that is a point as well.
The President: Final supplementary, Mr Karran.
1050 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree, as he says he has accepted the fact, that a deep-water berth created would give the flexibility that is needed? Would he also not agree that the fact is that when he castigates this Hon. Member about the issue of transparency, maybe he needs to remember that, by the meetings done before, we ended up giving a piece of paper worth £¼ billion onto the value of the Steam Packet – 1055 The President: Hon. Member, can we stick to the Question? (Interjection)
Mr Karran: – which the next three generations are going to have to pay for?
1060 The President: We are straying into other issues.
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The Minister: And Tynwald Court voted for that and for the extension of the User Agreement (A Member: Yes.) and – (Interjection by Mr Karran) (Interjections) I have indicated to a questioner only last week, Madam President, that one of the things that Government would 1065 want to have, if there is to be any extension of the User Agreement, is protection for the taxpayer with regard to the point the Hon. Member has made. So I do not know why he has made the point again, when I already answered it last week and said that was one of the principal things that we wish to have in any renewed User Agreement, if it were to happen.
1070 Mr Quirk: It is Christmas.
SOCIAL CARE
12. Glenside – Plans for building and land
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Social Care:
Pursuant to his Written Answer to Question 53 in October, what plans he has since developed for Glenside residential home, and the land surrounding it?
The President: Question 12. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Question in my name. 1075 The President: The Minister for Social Care to reply.
The Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you, Madam President. I have considered the Answers previously provided to the Hon. Member on this subject and 1080 wish to advise him that I consider them comprehensive and up to date when taken together. In the July sitting of this Hon. Court, in answer to the Hon. Member’s Oral Question 29, I responded specifically about his interest in the future plans for the site. As he points out in his Question, at this October’s sitting, under Written Question 53, I provided a range of further and relevant information closely associated to the possible future use of the site. 1085 Taking these Answers together, I wish to advise this Hon. Court that I am unable to add any further information at this time.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Henderson.
1090 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. As anticipated, the Minister has given us a comprehensive reply here. Is he aware that this site is one of the biggest Government sites in its current ownership… portfolio –
1095 A Member: Yes, and valuable.
Mr Henderson: – and is under tens of thousands of traffic movement scrutinies every day of the week in one of the busiest parts of the Isle of Man? It is inviting public questions at the minute, and would he agree it would be far more 1100 productive for him to give the public some hope as to what is going to happen to the site and how we can best use it?
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The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. 1105 I am very sympathetic to the comments that the Hon. Member makes, but I would remind him that my Department has recently made significant submissions to the high-level option review, that we have recently produced the housing policy review, which Members will be aware of, and that we have gone through a significant rebalancing programme – all related to provision for the elderly. 1110 Yes, if we use the word ‘hope’, I do have hopes and aspirations for the site, I really do; but whatever we put there is going to be there for a very long time indeed and has to be absolutely right. Drawing all those elements together I hope will produce a solution which will satisfy those who follow us; but we cannot rush our fences, Madam President.
1115 The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk.
Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Can I ask the Minister then, if he has not got any ideas of what he is going to do with Glenside, would he not then just hand it over to the Asset Management Unit, and then maybe 1120 they would come up with some ideas if you have not got any?
The President: I do not think the Minister said that, but Minister…
The Minister: I think that I have not got any ideas is far from the truth. I do have ambitions 1125 for the site, but I will not reiterate my previous answer. The site also is being considered, I think, by other Departments as well. I am at a loss to know why, just simply because there is a building there, we have to rush around finding a use for it. We are now looking at a Government that is reducing in size constantly and contracting, and it is inevitable that there will be, from time to time, a surfeit of 1130 buildings.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Quirk.
Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. 1135 Can I ask the Minister a direct question: how much is it costing his Department to keep that building mothballed?
The President: Minister.
1140 The Minister: Very little indeed in maintenance, Madam President. We have drained down the water and turned the gas off etc, so that we reduce the exposure of damage to the building if it is to find another use.
13. Landlord and tenancy legislation – Enforcement and need for new legislation
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Social Care:
Why the present landlord and tenancy legislation is not being enforced; and why there is a need for new proposed landlord and tenancy legislation?
______433 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: Question 13. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. 1145 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name.
The President: The Minister for Social Care to reply.
1150 The Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you, Madam President. As I have stated to this Hon. Court previously, the provisions in the Housing Acts 1955 to 2011 inclusive are enforced by the local authorities throughout the Island. Environmental health officers from the Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture act as their agents and authorised officers and investigate such matters on behalf of the local authorities. 1155 Environmental health officers take a proportionate approach to enforcement. However, currently, inspections only take place on receipt of a complaint from a tenant. A number of tenants are too concerned as to their personal circumstances and their relationship with their landlords to actually do that. The main aim of the new Landlord and Tenant (Private Housing) Bill is to provide the legal 1160 provisions for the mandatory introduction of a landlords’ registration scheme – this will create one central register of private sector housing landlords – and to ensure that all private sector properties are meeting a set of minimum standards. Environmental health officers will continue to inspect properties and take enforcement action where required, but will not have to do so simply on the basis of a complaint – and that is 1165 an important point. In addition, they will be able to report to the DSC, who will then have the power to suspend or cancel a landlord’s registration for a particular property or properties, if required. Other existing landlord and tenant legislation, such as the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954, the Tenancies (Implied Terms) Act 1954 and the Landlord and Tenant (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1170 1976 do not contain provisions for the Department of Social Care to take enforcement action. These pieces of legislation provide for basic terms of the agreement between landlords and tenants and contain provisions to protect the individual tenant against harassment and some aspects of poor tenancy management. However, although legal remedy may be available to the tenant, many are vulnerable or are simply not in a position to take this action on their own 1175 behalf. They are also, as I have said, often fearful of the potential consequences of their grievance, such as eviction. Again, the new landlord and tenant legislation will address this issue. The minimum standards, as I have stated previously, bring together the requirements under existing legislation and contain tenancy management standards drawn from the above Acts. Under the new landlord and tenant legislation, the Department will be able to take enforcement 1180 action if a landlord fails to meet these minimum standards. The private rental sector on the Island has grown significantly over the past decade and more landlords have entered the market. Whilst we do have existing legislation, we are fundamentally constrained in enforcement because of the current lack of a comprehensive list of all landlords and their rental properties. Furthermore, current reliance on tenants to take some form of 1185 action to address issues is not appropriate and fails to address one of the three core aims of this Government to protect the vulnerable. In summary, the new landlord and tenant legislation will provide a baseline ensuring all landlords are aware of their responsibilities under existing legislation and ensuring all properties meet a basic standard. In addition, it will facilitate the creation of a centralised register so 1190 enforcement action, where required, is not reliant upon the tenant.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, is the Minister aware that some landlords have made 1195 representations to me that the present legislation is not enforced, never mind any new ______434 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
legislation being enforced, and that they believe that this is only a creation to create another income stream, as far as his Department is concerned, on the backs of the landlords? Can he reassure me that that is not the case? Can the Shirveishagh also assure me that any proposed new landlord and tenancy legislation 1200 is going to be made on the standards that we, who are Hon. Members of this Court, would expect if we were taking up that accommodation, and that there are not going to be double standards as far as different sections of society having different standards for what they are expected to live in as far as accommodation is concerned?
1205 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. With regard to the standards first, I have canvassed in Douglas East three times in my short political career and I am not embarrassed to say that on more than one occasion I was brought 1210 to tears by the standard of the accommodation that I saw, and I thought, ‘How could this possibly be acceptable in our lovely Island?’ As far as the actions of officers are concerned, they do what they can at the present time with the laws that they have before them, but they are protracted and longwinded and they certainly do not act in any comprehensive way. There are landlords out there that we do not 1215 know exist. There are therefore relationships between tenants and landlords that we know nothing of; and as I have said, there are tenants who are uncomfortable or fearful about making complaints because of the impact it may have upon them individually. As far as the income stream is concerned, I cannot take this one seriously. If the submission for a simple documentary process that is required every three years takes place, the landlord is 1220 required to submit a fee of around about £50 and £11 for each property. So, if you had five properties, you would have a cost of £105 every three years, which is £30-odd per year divided by five properties. It is down to pence per week, so I cannot understand how the idea can form that somehow this is an income stream. This is about protecting the vulnerable. Thank you, Madam President. 1225 The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk.
Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. I am a bit perplexed. Could the Minister please explain why some landlords do not exist, 1230 when it is a clear breach, would he not agree with me, if the property is not registered with the nearest local authority? Can I ask the Minister how much consultation has he had, or his Department, with local authorities to take on this particular role? Would he not agree with me that the registers that are in existence around the Isle of Man, 1235 held by local authorities, are (a) unobtainable to read because they are now electronic, and (b) some of the properties do not exist? I hope your officers have looked at it.
The President: Minister.
1240 The Minister: I am not sure how landlords or properties do not exist. (Interjection by Mr Quirk) I am not quite sure… They do not exist in terms of recognition of them. They are not registered with us and therefore we cannot see them and we cannot see the relationship between them and the landlord. That is the point I am trying to make, and I think I was quite clear about that. 1245 As far as the local authorities are concerned, the local authorities are already fully engaged in this process. Actions taken against landlords go through the local authorities from DEFA. Thank you, Madam President. ______435 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member, Mr Downie.
1250 Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President. Would the Minister not agree with me that there is a requirement to register properties that you are putting out to rental at the moment? Secondly, in the bringing together of the new legislation, would it not be more cost effective to have one body responsible for the well-being of the tenants, the overseeing of the property, 1255 the fire regulations and so on, instead of having this whole splintered approach where the environmental department acts as an agent for local authorities? We are in this mire at the moment, which we have inherited. Would he not agree with me that we need to change that and we also need to change the rules and regulations on dilapidated properties (A Member: Hear, hear.) to get the thing brought into the centre, so that 1260 at least there is a group of people there who are responsible and who can take action and who can deliver a proper service both for the landlord and for the tenant they are trying to protect?
The President: Minister.
1265 The Minister: Madam President, I am very confident that all of the… most of the questions, anyway, that the Hon. Member of Council raises will be dealt with by central registration. We do not have a clear picture in terms of size or registration of landlords. That is why we are asking for their registration. For the first time, the Bill will bring together a simple list of requirements that a landlord is required to fulfil. 1270 If I can just parallel it for a moment with employment legislation, employment legislation did not come in because there were bad employers or good employers; employment legislation came in because it created a straightforward sensible framework which both employees and employers recognised and followed, and that was welcomed by the private sector and employees. 1275 In a sense, this Bill will bring in a recognisable fair platform that both tenants and landlords have to comply with and it will assist enormously in that process. In some respects now the Isle of Man is falling behind: Northern Ireland already has it; Scotland brought it in a few years ago and they are updating it; Wales are well on, if they have not already got it in; and England are trying to work out how they might do it. 1280 This is a simple straightforward thing which does not in any way impact in an oppressive way on landlords, and it is not expensive and it is not bureaucratic. I am very confident, and I have said this many times, that once it comes then it will be fully accepted and respected. Thank you, Madam President.
1285 The President: Hon. Members, the questions are straying into a bit of a debate on the whole issue. Can we have concise questions about fact, and answers which are similarly framed? The Hon. Member, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree that we would totally empathise 1290 with his point? It has been a long battle over the last 20 to 25 years with things like resale of electricity and all these other aspects (A Member: Hear, hear.) that had to be fought for to be brought in. Does he not agree that it is wrong that we have double standards? If the standards are not good enough for the Members in this Hon. Court, they should not be good enough as far as 1295 people outside this Hon. Court. Would the Minister not agree that the time has come for this Court to accept that there is an underclass in our society that needs the protection of such legislation? Furthermore, would the Shirveishagh not agree that when he is looking at this legislation… we all come across bad tenants and that aspect will be looked at as far as this legislation is ______436 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
1300 concerned, because we should not be using it to protect bad tenants but we equally should not be using it to protect bad landlords either?
The President: Minister.
1305 The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. One of the fundamental tenets of my job is to protect the vulnerable. I do accept that there is an element of underclass here in the way certain tenants have not got access to decent representation, and the Bill will deal with that. So we do have this very significant duty of care. I think that answers the question, Madam President. 1310 The President: The Hon. Member for Castletown, Mr Ronan.
Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. Would the Minister agree with me that the new landlord and tenant legislation is only going 1315 to affect a very small percentage of landlords around the Isle of Man, and responsible landlords around the Isle of Man will not be affected by this in any way at all? This is desperately needed in our Island; (Two Members: Hear, hear.) and to concur with the Hon. Member for Onchan, this is long overdue. Responsible landlords around the Isle of Man will not be affected by this and will embrace it. 1320 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Madam President, just as good employers embrace good employment legislation, good landlords will embrace a sensible regulatory process. 1325 The President: A final supplementary, Mr Quirk, the Hon. Member for Onchan.
Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Can I ask the Minister then, if he says it is a level playing field, why are Government 1330 Departments, possibly charities as well, going to be exempt? If it is a level playing field, like your exercise you told me about regarding employment, why isn't it level across the thing; or is the Minister for DAFF, Mr Gawne – and his Department – failing in his duties?
Mr Gawne: For DEFA, not DAFF. 1335 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Madam President, I am sure I have answered this question at least a couple of times before, and I am sorry I am not getting the message over to the Hon. Member. 1340 Public sector housing already has higher standards. We are talking about a sector which has no recognisable standards with regard to certain aspects, and these must be dealt with. I am at a complete loss (Interjection by Mr Quirk) to know why the Hon. Member has no empathy with the people in these circumstances. It is a great shame.
1345 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane –
The President: Question 14 –
Mr Quirk: Sorry, Madam President. 1350
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The President: Resume your seat, sir. Question 14 –
Mr Quirk: Just responding to the Minister – 1355 The President: Do you have a point of –
Mr Quirk: He accused me of having no empathy with people in the thing. I do, maybe more than you. 1360 The President: Take your seat, sir.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane –
14. Isle of Man Adoption Service – New role
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Quirk) to ask the Minister for Social Care:
How the Isle of Man Adoption Service is working in its new role?
1365 The President: Question 14. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk. Mr Quirk, do you wish to ask your Question?
Mr Quirk: Sorry, Madam President – just getting excited now and again. (A Member: Yes.) I beg to ask the Question standing in my name. 1370 The President: The Minister for Social Care to reply.
The Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you, Madam President. The trustees of the Isle of Man Adoption Service determined, in late 2012, that they could no 1375 longer maintain the organisation and approached the Department with the proposal that the Children's Centre take over the contract for the provision of adoption services on the Island. This was approved by the Department to ensure continuity of service to Island residents, and – as it enabled the early implementation of the recommendation from a LEAN review undertaken by my Department to join the fostering service and adoption service under one 1380 organisation, one manager – from mid-May 2013 the Children's Centre has delivered adoption services alongside the fostering service under the banner of the Family Placement Service. I am pleased to report that the transfer has given the Department and new service provider an opportunity to reflect upon and agree the strategic direction for the service. Staff members who either did not transfer to the new service or who have since retired are 1385 being replaced by new workers with experience and enthusiasm for this field of work who can prepare and support adoptive carers and children in adoptive families. The new provider engaged a respected expert in the field to undertake a review of the service to identify areas for development, which has been shared with the Department. The conclusions were largely positive and the 12 recommendations have been accepted and are 1390 being implemented. An advisory group has been set up to enable the provider and the Department to identify emerging practices in the field of adoption and determine how these may be used or adapted to meet local circumstances. ______438 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
It should be noted that the service will now be subject to registration and inspection 1395 following enactment of the Regulation of Care Act, which will provide additional assurance on service performance alongside the performance monitoring that occurs as part of my Department's contract management process.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Quirk. 1400 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. I thank the Minister for his response. Can I ask him who actually did the review and the 12 recommendations, and are they in the public domain? Finally, could I also ask the Minister how many jobs were actually transferred over from his 1405 Department and how many of those were actually replaced by new people?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: The recommendations are not in the public arena, Madam President, because 1410 they are between the experts in the field and the service provider, rather than being in the public arena as such; although our contract management team will obviously be aware, in an open way, about how progress is going. With regard to the number of workers, I believe four of the eight transferred and those posts that did not transfer are being replaced, as I explained in my Answer. 1415 The service was a little bit held back for a short time because one member of staff did have a very serious vehicle crash and somebody else broke their arm, so for a short period of time there have been certain difficulties; but they are now resolving themselves and, linking the new staff with the recommendations, I am very confident that the service will go forward in a good manner. 1420 The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton.
Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President. May I ask if the Minister could advise… on those occasions where there has been a long-term 1425 adoption and the child develops severe problems, such as with ADHD, what sort of support is there, and does that support cover respite? If so, could he elaborate?
The President: I am not sure that is relevant to the Question.
1430 The Minister: Madam President, that is outwith the Question, but if he would like to put a Question forward in this manner at some future sitting, I would be delighted to answer it. Thank you, Madam President.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. 1435 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Just in case it slipped the Minister's mind, could I ask the Minister regain who did the work – who was the company or the individual that did the report – and will eventually the recommendations come into the public domain? 1440 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Madam President, I have answered that already. They will not come into the public arena and the company, the organisation, the individual who did the review is a matter
______439 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
1445 between the provider and the person who actually did it. We are confident that that person is very highly regarded in the UK indeed – one of the top providers of these sort of review services.
Mr Quirk: It must be Mr Henderson.
COMMUNITY, CULTURE AND LEISURE
15. Bus provision – DCCL and Bus Vannin plans
The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure:
What the difference between his Department’s and Bus Vannin’s strategy and plan for bus provision is?
The President: Question 15. The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas. 1450 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name.
The President: The Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure to reply. 1455 The Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Madam President. Bus Vannin is purely a business name for the public transport bus service which my Department registered with the Companies Registry in 2009. Bus Vannin is part of public 1460 transport, which is an intrinsic part of the Department of Community, Culture and Leisure. In short, none.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Thomas.
1465 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President, and to the Minister for that reply. Should transport strategy – specifically bus provision – be separated between the Department and Bus Vannin? For instance, does the DCCL Minister agree with the Department of Infrastructure Minister, who advised in another place, when asked about Bus Vannin minibus trials recently, that ‘any of 1470 the 223 registered operators could potentially run a similar regular service using minibuses’?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Madam President, Bus Vannin is part of the Department. It has the same 1475 strategy. I cannot see how it differs by separating it.
The President: A further supplementary, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Does the Minister agree, Madam President, with the bendy bus independent 1480 working group, which reported that school transport could be provided ‘by a number of methods’, including contract buses hired from private companies, school buses, taxis, private hire cars, minibuses or scheduled bus services? ______440 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: Minister.
1485 The Minister: Madam President, all of those… Anything could happen regarding any bus service.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. (Interjections)
1490 Mr Quirk: I think you two need to get a room.
Mr Thomas: The Treasury Minister made it quite clear that the bus deficit is £5.6 million, in another place at the end of October. When, where and how will the debate about options for bus provision really take place, and who is developing these options? Is it just Bus Vannin and 1495 the Department, or are other people involved who could provide buses in different ways? (Mr Corkish: Standing.)
The President: Minister.
1500 The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. I think we are nearly getting there. I think what the Hon. Member is asking for is when are we going to have a full review of who is going to provide bus services and who is going to pay for bus services. There are a number of options out there. There are services in the UK that are run by private companies. These are actually subsidised by the local authorities.
HEALTH
16. Jurby Health and Community Centre – Operations capacity; fulfilment of purpose
The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Minister for Health:
What the operations capacity of the Jurby healthcare centre is; and whether it is fulfilling its purpose?
1505 The President: Question 16. The Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan.
Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. I ask the Question standing in my name.
1510 The President: The Minister for Health to reply.
The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, the Jurby Health Centre was opened to patients in January 2012 and was intended to consolidate health services in the area and accommodate any additional growth in the north of the Island. 1515 At the time, there were 3,400 patients who lived in the Jurby and surrounding areas. Up until the opening of the surgery, it was necessary for patients living in Jurby and surrounding areas to attend their GP in Ramsey. In addition, the Department’s community services made use of a two-bedroomed house in Jurby called Earroo Nane, which was leased from the then Department of Local Government and 1520 the Environment. Earroo Nane housed a health visitor drop-in session, a district nurse base, a mother and baby clinic, a playgroup, a playgroup base operated by the Children's Centre, and ______441 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
activities provided by Age Concern. The Department of Local Government needed to reclaim the accommodation and the new Jurby Health Centre incorporated additional GP premises together with all the services previously provided at Earroo Nane. 1525 The surgery in Jurby is open each morning five days a week and has, on average, 267 patient consultations per month. This currently appears to meet patient need and enables the Ramsey Group Practice to provide the right balance of services at both their Ramsey and Jurby premises. The community health space in the building is used regularly for community health clinics, the baby massage group, the mums and tots, and case conferences involving Social Care, Health, 1530 Home Affairs and Education. It is also used on an ad hoc basis by a range of agencies. The purpose of the surgery, as set out in its original business case, was to provide convenient access to a GP surgery for consultation, treatment, injections and dressings etc; reduce pressure on doctors’ patient lists; reduce pressure for modification or replacement of the surgeries currently servicing this area; health improvement in a poorly served population; improvement 1535 and consolidation of Health and Social Care services. In that respect, Madam President, I believe the surgery is fulfilling its purpose.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Cannan.
1540 Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. Will the Minister confirm, just for the benefit of the Court and to refresh my memory, that the total cost of this building and the facility was £1.8 million for the taxpayer; that the annual running costs, including payments to GPs, are running at £90,000 per annum; and that the surgery is seeing 267 patients per month, which actually contradicts the last answer I received, 1545 which was 313 patients a month – so can I confirm which one of those two answers is correct, please?
The President: Minister.
1550 The Minister: In relation to the last point the Hon. Member makes, the difference in figures, I presume that is because of changing patterns in the periods of time that I refer… averages change. The Hon. Member is well aware that the business case put forward in 2008-09 made some assumptions about developments in the Jurby area and some of those have not come to 1555 fruition. The Hon. Member is also very well aware of the significant pressure on the Ramsey GP service and the intention was to reduce the pressure using the GPs in Ramsey to service this area. That is still the intention, to actually attract people away from the surgery in Ramsey and make it more convenient for many patients to travel there. 1560 There was a full business case put forward in 2008-09 that believed significant development would take place. Not all of this development has materialised yet, but of course we are planning for the future.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Cannan. 1565 Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. Can I ask the Minister whether he still thinks that the surgery is fulfilling value for money at a £1.8 million cost when, by my calculations, given the answers he has given this morning, the nurse… the doctors are undertaking three consultations an hour? 1570 Can I ask him whether the surgery is fulfilling its value for money purpose, and what exactly the nurse and the GP are doing there for four hours in the morning, when it would seem to me that, for the 12 consultations, two hours would be plenty?
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The President: Minister. 1575 The Minister: Madam President, I think what the Hon. Member is alluding to is that the hours that are currently staffed are too long. However, we see this as developing in the future and trying to attract people there; and to do that, I think we need to make sure the hours of delivery are as long as possible. 1580 I do take his point that it has not developed at the speed at which we would have hoped it would develop. That is for reasons outwith our control. However, I am sure the Hon. Member looks to development of that area in the near future, and when that happens there will be the capacity for the Department to deliver the services which the community deserves and is entitled to. 1585 The President: The Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Singer.
Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President. The Minister says that the Jurby surgery was established to help patients who would not then 1590 have to travel into Ramsey, but is he aware that the Ramsey surgery actually says to patients who live in Ramsey, 'If you want to see a doctor, go to Jurby,' and therefore it is not fulfilling the idea and probably a reasonable proportion of those 300 people a month are actually people travelling from Ramsey to Jurby?
1595 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Madam President, you will not be surprised to know I do not have the detailed breakdown of where the patients are coming from to Jurby. However, I would encourage the patients from Ramsey, if it is more convenient for them – certainly parking is a lot more 1600 convenient and patient slots for having a referral with a doctor in Jurby are obviously a lot quicker… maybe they might like to avail themselves of that opportunity.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Cannan.
1605 Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. Is the Minister aware that a constituent of mine drove past the surgery at 11.30 a.m. very recently and decided to go in to see the doctor about her backache, only to find the door locked and the young lady behind the door telling her that there was no-one in and that she had been ordered to remain on site until 1.00 p.m.? 1610 I know it is Christmas, Madam President, but the Minister did not have the foresight to build a stable next to the surgery. Can I ask again is this the proper use of funds; and actually, would it not have been more efficient and effective to have built a smaller facility at Jurby and a smaller facility at Kirk Michael or Ballaugh, (Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear.) and that would have had a much better effect of easing 1615 the pressure on the western Peel medical services and the Ramsey medical services and had both surgeries operating efficiently and effectively?
Mrs Cannell: Well said.
1620 The President: Minister.
The Minister: The Hon. Member will not be surprised that I do not agree with his assumptions. He raises an issue about an individual circumstance that took place. If he gives me the details 1625 of that, I am quite happy to look into that. ______443 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The Hon. Member is well aware of the decisions, why it was strategically important to develop the site for the north west of the Island at Jurby. Kirk Michael is only six miles from the GP centre in Peel. Kirk Michael is serviced very well by Ramsey and Peel, and both those centres have decided that, because of the lack of demand in Kirk Michael, they now do not provide 1630 services in those areas. I think we have got to bear in mind that it is not where we would like things but where things are best to go, and we have to make those sort of bold decisions. It would not be appropriate for the Department to develop two branch surgeries and put even more pressure on GPs.
1635 The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh son Slaynt not agree that this project just shows that projects are done on other factors than just community need? Does he not agree that, when we were in this Court, we had the arguments that were made 1640 by the former Member for the constituency and that he has been vindicated as far as that is concerned; and this was about forcing the patronage and the block vote into this Hon. Court, and that is the reason we have ended up with this waste of money as far as having it too big for the facilities for the area?
1645 Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear.
The President: Minister.
The Minister: The Hon. Member will not be surprised that I do not agree. We have a long- 1650 term vision for this area.
The President: Final supplementary, Mr Cannan.
Mr Cannan: Can I ask the Minister whether he recalls, as part of the commitment to… or part 1655 of the building and the sale of Jurby healthcare centre to this Hon. Court, that he committed and said that… ‘Can he confirm that you understand that both the Department and Ramsey practice have given a commitment to carry on the surgery in Kirk Michael?’… why that commitment has changed and what impact that has had on Jurby healthcare centre?
1660 The President: Minister.
The Minister: The Hon. Member alludes to commitment. We have no control over GPs and where they have a branch surgery. That decision to pull out of Kirk Michael was solely made by the GP practice, based on the demand and the facilities there. It was nothing that the 1665 Department had control of.
17. Cancer treatments and drugs – NHS availability and cost
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Hall) to ask the Minister for Health:
What recent assessment he has made of new cancer treatments being made available on the NHS in the past three years; what his policy is on cancer drug availability for patients; whether he has ever made representations concerning prices to drug companies; and if he will make a statement? ______444 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: Question 17. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Hall.
Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 1670 The President: Minister for Health to reply.
The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Thank you, Madam President. All new treatments which are applicable to the Isle of Man, whether for cancer or not, are 1675 considered by the Clinical Recommendations Committee (CRC), which makes recommendations on whether or not new treatments or drugs should be made available to Manx patients. As we are too small a jurisdiction to be able to undertake the complex and sophisticated technical assessments of clinical evidence which are necessary, the CRC's recommendations rely on the clinical effectiveness and cost effectiveness assessment made by the National Institute 1680 for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) or by similar bodies. Our policy is that all new cancer drugs which are assessed as clinically and cost effective should normally be made available to Manx patients. This does not, however, include drugs which are available only through the English Cancer Drugs Fund, as almost by definition these are not NICE approved as clinically or cost effective. 1685 Our policy for some years, and reconfirmed earlier this year, is therefore that cancer drugs listed only in the NHS Cancer Drugs Fund are regarded as a low-priority treatment and will not routinely be funded by the Department of Health. Full details of the rationale behind this are in the CRC website. Finally, Madam President, other than in specific cases where drug companies make special 1690 arrangements for particular drugs – for example, that they will fund the first course of treatment – the Department has not made representations regarding drug prices. We receive the vast majority of our drugs from the UK NHS and pay UK NHS prices. We are thus beneficiaries of the UK NHS economies of scale in cost as well as procurement processes, which include safety and quality assurance. We do not contemplate risking these extremely valuable and effective pricing, 1695 safety and quality assurances by seeking to make special deals or break our relationship with NHS procurement.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Hall.
1700 Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President, and the Minister for the reply. Given the absence of an equivalent cancer drug fund in the Isle of Man and our reliance on the drug rationing body, NICE, does the Minister not share my grave concerns that this year alone, to the best of my knowledge, of the 17 new cancer drugs that have been put to NICE only one has been approved for NHS use; and since 2007, NICE has recommended only 31% of the 1705 new medicines that it has reviewed? Does he therefore acknowledge that many patients, with rarer cancers particularly, are being denied life-saving treatment; and does he not accept that, far too often, decisions seem to be driven entirely by some arbitrary measure of cost effectiveness, rather than the best outcome for patients? 1710 The President: Minister.
The Minister: I would not agree with the Hon. Member on that. He quotes these treatments as being ‘life-saving’ treatments. Where they are demonstrated to be life-saving treatments and 1715 NICE obviously recommend those treatments, we will use those drugs.
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There are drugs, as he obviously says, coming onto the market all the time; however, we have to invest our money in something that has got a possible track record of demonstrating that it has a positive effect. However, the Hon. Member will be aware that we also have an exception committee within 1720 the CRC that looks at individual circumstances where individual drugs can be assessed for different reasons where there is something of an exception.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Hall.
1725 Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. Does the Minister not feel that there can be nothing that is more frustrating for cancer specialists who treat Isle of Man patients than knowing that there are effective, licensed, evidence-based treatments that are available which they are not allowed to use because it is outside of the scope of NICE and they are not allowed to access the Cancer Drugs Fund? 1730 So, would he not agree with me that, effectively, I think what he is doing to the people of the Isle of Man is something of a disservice; and to carry on with this policy may quite likely lead to the Isle of Man being consigned to one of the poorest survival rates in Europe if it carries on in the way it is doing?
1735 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Madam President, the Hon. Member alludes to a situation which I am afraid I cannot concur with. We have to have evidence that drugs actually do have a very positive effect. If we were going 1740 to do what the Hon. Member is alluding to, we would be diverting very scarce resources from other areas, and I am sure when that happened we would have an outcry from our population. It is better to spend our money as wisely as possible, and I believe the Health Service is doing that. We do not have a cancer drug fund like the UK has, and I believe we are investing the money in the most appropriate form, in that we are trying to look at the prevention end rather 1745 than the speculative end.
The President: Supplementary, the Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell.
Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. 1750 Nevertheless, Minister, would you not agree that what makes matters worse is when cancer patients see a very good oncologist in the Isle of Man who does tell them, on occasion, ‘There is a targeted therapy drug which you will benefit from, which would enhance your life and give you a better quality of life,’ only then to be met with a rebuttal from the organisation set up in the Isle of Man because of the policy implications? 1755 Further, Minister, would it not be beneficial, looking forward – and in order to move forward, rather than having to defend Questions like this, which I believe are going to come thick and fast in the next two years – for the Isle of Man Government, the Health Service, to set up a partnership with cancer charities in the Isle of Man to put together a cancer drug fund so that the Isle of Man can have its own bespoke drug fund; so that when oncologists recommend a 1760 particular targeted therapy drug for a particular cancer patient, rather than saying, ‘No, you do not meet the criteria,’ the answer might be, ‘Yes, if we have got it in the fund’?
The President: Minister.
1765 The Minister: Madam President, we are talking to the cancer charities in relation to this very subject. They are very well aware that we do not have the resources to provide such a fund. However, I am very well aware that a lot of money goes off Island every year to various charities ______446 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
and does not feed back into our system, so we are talking to the cancer charities to see if there is any potential for them to try and acquire a fund and for us to administer it. 1770 I must come back to the point that the Hon. Member started with in her supplementary, and that is saying an oncologist might say to a patient from the Isle of Man, 'You might benefit from something.’ It is important that we invest what money we do have where we know it will benefit people.
1775 The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree that we all recognise the pressures that are on the health services, but would he also recognise the fact that potentially we are giving people a death sentence when there is an option as far as drug intervention? 1780 Would he not agree that the fact is that issues have been raised in this Court in the past, where that has vindicated the actions that were taken by the Hon. Member as far as a particular case was concerned? Will he come back with a statement to this Hon. Court, either in the January or the February sitting, bringing in the points that the Hon. Member for East Douglas has brought in, in order 1785 that we can have a clear policy as far as this issue is concerned, allowing for the fact that our people should not be at a disadvantage?
The President: Minister.
1790 The Minister: I think it is very unfortunate that the Hon. Member uses phrases like ‘death sentence’, Madam President. However, I will come back, when we have had some conclusion to our discussions with the charities, and give an update; but I cannot say when that will be. The ball is very much in their court to try and find the funds, and then we will have to find the system to administrate that 1795 fund if that comes into being. So I cannot give a timeframe on it, but I am more than happy to come back and report back as and when.
The President: Final supplementary, Mr Hall.
1800 Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. Does the Minister not agree with me that NICE's endorsement of unproven crank assumption treatments – such as aromatherapy for dementia, acupuncture for headaches, and tai chi for multiple sclerosis – does make a complete mockery of evidence-based medicine whilst denying drugs to cancer patients, (Interjection by Mr Henderson) where drugs such as avastin and 1805 axitinib, which have been given to patients alongside chemotherapy, have been shown to extend life by 50% longer… surviving just over a year on average, and in the case of the latter drug, aimed at kidney cancer, an extra three years? Does he not think that it really is time that effectively being a sole NICE organisation does need a fundamental review and a fundamental shakeup to devise a clear policy going forward, 1810 when these drugs will become more expensive and the demand for them will inevitably increase exponentially?
The President: Minister.
1815 The Minister: I do agree with the last part of what the Hon. Member says, that the more drugs that are produced, the more expectation comes forward. However, any new drug costs us a significant amount of money, and I go back to saying exactly what I said earlier: we must spend our money where we get the most benefit from it.
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We have no agency like NICE on the Isle of Man to give us recommendations. NICE is an 1820 internationally reputable organisation and I think it is right that we use them to benchmark our drugs in the Isle of Man.
18. West Midlands Quality Review Service – Areas not being reviewed
The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Minister for Health:
Which areas of the Health Services will not form part of the review by the West Midlands Quality Review Service?
The President: Question 18. The Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. 1825 I ask the Question in my name.
The President: The Minister for Health to reply.
The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, the Department of Health 1830 External Review Programme Board, which includes lay representation and an independent chair, is currently considering which Health Services care pathways will form part of the external review of the Isle of Man Health Services by the West Midlands Quality Review Service and which will not form part of the review for the duration of the likely three-year review period. This is being considered along with the order of the various phases of the review activity. 1835 We expect that the care pathways that will be out of the scope and not included in the reviews will be chaplaincy; pathology, including blood transfusion service, histopathology, haematology, biochemistry and microbiology; mortuary; healing arts; occupational health services; GP services; breast screening; services for people with learning disabilities; and sleep assessment. 1840 I must emphasise, however, that the review programme is not yet finalised and will be the subject of further consideration by the programme board in early January. The programme will publicly be available shortly thereafter. As I have made clear on previous occasions, the review process to be applied in the Isle of Man is to be undertaken in the same way that West Midlands operate in the UK, and this 1845 consultation process is consistent with that process. West Midlands Quality Review Service will be reviewing the provisions of healthcare on the Island from a wide perspective and the review process will likely extend over a three-year period. I anticipate the second stage of the review process taking place in early 2014 and continuing through the year. 1850 The findings of each individual review undertaken by them will be made public both by the Department and by West Midlands Quality Review Service themselves, who publish all their reports on their website.
The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft. 1855 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President.
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I thank the Minister for his comprehensive, if tentative, response – because nothing is written in stone yet; but it does seem like there is an awful lot that is actually being considered for not covering in the review. 1860 Could the Minister explain then why he amended my original motion so that it covered the whole of the Health Service? That is what we were promised by his amendment, so why are we not going to get something that covers the whole of the Health Service, particularly with the GP services? Is that not an important part of our Health Service? I have looked at the terms of reference on the West Midlands website and it says 'to review the Health Service'. How can they 1865 fulfil the terms of reference with such a loosely constructed review term? It sounds quite incredible to me.
The President: Minister.
1870 The Minister: Madam President, there are several areas that are not being reviewed because they are being reviewed anyway by another agency, and there are certain areas that West Midlands do not do themselves – some of the ones I listed already. As far as breast screening is concerned, for example, which I mentioned, that is already scheduled to be separately reviewed by a UK agency; but there are some that I listed that West Midlands do not do. 1875 As far as the Hon. Member’s queries about GP services, of course that is outwith the Health Service directly run by the Department. It is not in the scope because they would require a separate very large review process, which cannot be completed within the review process timescale. GP practices, of course, are already under regular scrutiny through the Quality and Outcomes Framework and other review processes anyway; and if we had any concerns about 1880 any individual practice we could implement looking at that anyway. If the Hon. Member wants to raise with me outside this arena any other areas of concern that she is concerned are not being looked at, I am more than happy to meet her and explain exactly why.
1885 The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft.
Mr Singer: Sorry, Madam President, I indicated…
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. 1890 Would the Minister accept that possibly it is not that I have concerns about specific areas – and I really would like questions answered in the public forum, rather than meeting separately (Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear.) – it is more about us not being given the full facts when we are voting on an amendment to an original motion, which he expanded to cover the whole of the Health Service? 1895 He has just said that the GP service he could look at, if anything is flagged up as having specific concern; but then, in an earlier statement, he said he could not do it within the timeframe. So again we have got contradictions, Madam President. Which is it? Why are we not just being told what is happening?
1900 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Madam President, it is difficult to try and be helpful to the Hon. Member when she is trying to pick holes in everything we are trying to do. We have a comprehensive organisation reviewing our Health Service. I have listed the areas 1905 that are not being reviewed, but they are subject to the programme board making judgements on whether they should be looked into or not. There are several areas that West Midlands do not have a specialty in.
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The Hon. Member said that GP services… The evidence I am giving to you is contradictory. There are two reasons, I think. One reason is that it would take an extra length of time. We want 1910 to try and get this done in this three-year timeframe, and if we wanted to do it in a quicker way it would actually cost more money. I must remind the Hon. Member that we are having to fund all of this from inside the current budget for the Health Service as well, so we have got to be mindful of that and we must be targeting the areas that Hon. Members have been most concerned about and raised questions about over the last 12 months. 1915 The President: The Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Singer.
Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President. So the Minister will therefore… Does he then withdraw his previous statement that he is 1920 undertaking a full review of the Health Service, because there are several quite important sections which he now says… particularly GPs, and we all get complaints about GPs. Can the Minister just re-explain to me who actually undertakes the independent review of the GP service? Could he also confirm to me that the West Midlands will be looking at the complaints 1925 procedure, which is of great concern to most Members (Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear.) in this Chamber? Will also the West Midlands be reviewing the performance of some of his senior management?
1930 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Quite a lot of supplementaries in there, Madam President. I know the Hon. Member has a particular concern about the complaints procedure. That will be covered in one of the next reviews, which will be under the title of ‘Governance’, so he has 1935 no fears about that – that will be looked at by the West Midlands, who are obviously qualified to look into those sorts of areas. In relation to GP services, I think when we came forward and said we were doing this review what we said was we would review the Health Service… In special relationships we have control about certain of the things that we deliver as the Health Service. A lot of those other things that 1940 are outside, that are delivered by contractors… there are other agencies that look in and monitor that on our behalf, and that is why it is not in the full terms… [Inaudible] a couple of Hon. Members have mentioned… [Inaudible] However, as I have already said, the programme board is going to look at the programme for the coming year early in January, and I hope to have the details when they have decided what 1945 should be looked in and what is much… urgent to be looked in, fairly soon.
The President: Final supplementary, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. 1950 Would the Minister clarify then, do pathology, haematology, occupational therapy… Doesn't that all come in as part of the Hospital? If that is the case, why did he widen the remit of an original motion to make it go to the whole of the Health Services? Could he clarify why it takes more than three years to review GP services and who these other agencies are that he has referred to several times? 1955 The President: Minister.
The Minister: In relation to the Hon. Member's enquiry about pathology and things like that, pathology, including blood transfusion, histopathology, haematology, biochemistry and ______450 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
1960 microbiology, already have been extensively benchmarked and had external quality assessments made. The West Midlands and the programme board feel that they cannot match that level of external scrutiny because it is being monitored on a very regular basis. It will, however, be picked up in the reviews of other areas if delays in pathology, for example, prevented another area from achieving a quality service. These things will be seen in the round but not specifically 1965 looked into.
19. Pay awards – Impact on frontline services
The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Minister for Health:
If he will make a statement on the impact the recent pay awards will have on frontline services?
The President: Question 19. The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I ask the Question standing in my name. 1970 The President: The Minister for Health to reply.
The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, the estimated ongoing revenue consequences of the recently agreed-to pay award for those employed under Manx pay, terms 1975 and conditions with the Department of Health is £625,000, for which, in accord with the policy on pay, no additional central funding is available. The policy on pay is clear – pay awards have to be self-funded – and I would hope, in the first instance, to achieve this saving through non-salary staff-related costs, such as training, travel, and staff-related costs through natural wastage, covering all pay groups, including Whitley 1980 Council and the Civil Service. I will try and preserve frontline services, but this I cannot guarantee in the current financial climate.
The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft. 1985 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Could the Minister just clarify: if these savings are going to be found in various ways and he will be adhering to the policy of not increasing the salary budget, presumably this means, if he is not going to impact on frontline services, it is going to be administrative staff who will mainly be 1990 bearing the brunt of the reductions that he is going to have to find? If that is the case, then why is he saying that it is potentially impacting on frontline services? Surely these savings can be made without doing that.
The President: Minister. 1995 The Minister: I think the Hon. Member misunderstood what I was saying. Sometimes we do not have control over budgetary issues, and sometimes things go out to arbitration and pay increases are awarded, so that we do not have direct control. What the Hon. Member was saying was, 'You are not going to allow pay increases'… Sometimes, we do not
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2000 have a choice in some of these matters. They go out to arbitration and the figure is awarded, and we have to try and come up with the goods somewhere. What I am saying is we are going to try and find those extra resources from within the Department, right across the board, not from one specific area of employment, but doing it right across the board in different areas. Obviously, we will look at natural wastage as well, and that 2005 will be the first port of call for making savings.
The President: Supplementary, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. 2010 Would the Minister acknowledge that I do understand about arbitration and the fact that you have the pay awards that you did not take into account when you were preparing your budget; but that it is Government policy for any awards, such as by arbitration, that you are not allowed to increase your salary budget to cover those, so the savings have to be made within salary budget and not within any other area? Could the Minister confirm that, please? 2015 The President: Minister.
The Minister: We have to make the savings within our Department.
2020 The President: Supplementary, Mrs Cannell.
Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. A little bit alarmed, Madam President, to hear the Health Minister say, ‘I will try to provide frontline services.’ It has always been the policy of Tynwald Court that frontline services would 2025 always be protected. Can the Minister let us know, please, when he will be in a position to be able to do the proper assessment of these recent pay awards and their impact on the delivery of frontline services, so that we can be better informed? Also, if it is going to impact negatively on frontline services, will he consider bringing a motion 2030 forward to Tynwald Court for extra money to maintain the frontline services? Rather than lose them, I am absolutely convinced that there would be a majority support within this hon. place to maintain them, rather than risk them falling altogether. If he can let us know when he has made a proper assessment of the impact and come back to the Court and advise accordingly, please. 2035 The President: Minister.
The Minister: I thank the Hon. Member for her question. However, it does raise an alarming situation: that the Hon. Member is not aware of the financial position that we are in. 2040 I will come back, if there is a situation… Obviously, we are talking to Treasury on a regular basis. If the situation were that I cannot see us balancing our budget, I will make Hon. Members aware of that. However, we will strive to balance our budget in the light of these new pay awards. Hon. Members must be aware that there is no extra money from Treasury, and I am 2045 surprised that Hon. Members have not picked that up over not just weeks but several months now.
Mrs Cannell: The Department will have to offer it up, then.
2050 The President: Supplementary, Mrs Beecroft.
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Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I shall try and put my question in another way in the hope of getting a proper answer on this: will the Minister confirm whether the £625,000, or whatever the arbitration amounts that were 2055 awarded… where it is going to come from? Is it going to come from within the existing salary budget? He keeps saying that it is within the Department. He is not confirming whether he is sticking to Government policy and making these savings within the existing salary budget.
The President: Minister, do you want to add anything to your previous answers? 2060 The Minister: I have nothing very much to add, Madam President; just to say that the £625,000 is the ongoing year-on-year that we need in the Department to fund this pay increase. I will reiterate what I said to the Hon. Member before: that we will endeavour to live within our budget by making savings across the Department to make sure that we meet our obligation 2065 as far as the Budget is concerned, and that we try and protect frontline services.
20. Child poverty – Definition; numbers
The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Minister for Health:
What his Department’s definition of child poverty is; and how many children were so defined in each year from 2010?
The President: Question 20. The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I ask the Question standing in my name. 2070 The President: Minister for Health to reply.
The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, when the Strategy for the Future of Health Services was developed in 2009-10, the definition of child poverty from a public health 2075 perspective would have been a combination of UNICEF's working definition of child poverty, presented in ‘The State of the World’s Children 2005’:
‘Children living in poverty experience deprivation of the material, spiritual and emotional resources needed to survive, develop and thrive, leaving them unable to enjoy their rights, achieve their full potential or participate as full and equal members of society.’
and the UK government’s definition at that time of any child growing up in a family where the total income after housing expenses is below 60% of the median income after housing expenses for a country. Risks posed to children living in conditions of child poverty include poor parenting, leading to poor social skills and poor access to good pre-schools; obesity; bullying and other mental health problems; early leaving from school and thus poor access to work that pays above the minimum 2080 wage. At the time the Strategy was developed, we enquired of Social Security if they could give us any indication of the proportion of children on the Island who would be at risk of child poverty, and they were unable to provide any local data at that time.
2085 The President: Supplementary question. ______453 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I am just surprised how you can have it as a priority to reduce child poverty or the risk of child poverty without having anything to actually measure that against – no figures to know whether you are actually achieving your stated priorities that are in your Strategy document. Possibly the 2090 Minister could clarify that – how he is actually going to measure something he has set out.
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Sometimes, Madam President, we cannot always measure areas like this, but 2095 we must strive to improve them. We can strive to improve them by putting actions into place that will help the areas that I outlined in my initial Answer.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, does the Shirveishagh not think that he is talking the talk and not 2100 walking the walk as far as this important issue? Allowing for the fact that we heard from his colleague, the Minister for Social Care, about the issue of an underclass and how we have got to deal with this underclass, does he not feel that he needs to come back, in conjunction with the Department of Social Care, and actually clarify what he feels is acceptable as far as child poverty is concerned in this Island? 2105 Allowing for the fact that many years ago we were talking about having four legs and a woolly coat being pampered, and two legs and no coat in this Hon. Court… the fact is that things have improved, but there is no… (A Member: Rhetoric.) It is alright people yawning in here. Things have improved, but they obviously have not improved enough if we do not have (Mr Shimmin: Question.) the basic criteria of what we believe is acceptable as far as child poverty is concerned 2110 in this country.
The President: Minister, this would appear to overlap Departments. Would you reply, please?
2115 The Minister: Yes. The Hon. Member says am I talking the talk and not walking the walk. Well, that is up to the Hon. Member's interpretation. Child poverty is an area that we have joint responsibility in and sometimes it would be more helpful, if he wanted direct answers to specific areas of child poverty, to actually ask the Minister for Social Care.
2120 The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Would the Minister not acknowledge that it is actually in his Health Strategy – the Strategy for the Future of Health Services in the Isle of Man? It does not say it is a joint strategy; it is in his 2125 own document, his own Department’s document. While he might be applauded for bringing in measures to try and tackle child poverty, how can he know if they are working if he has got no measurement to know what the baseline child poverty was and what it is now?
2130 The President: Minister, I think you have already stated an answer.
The Minister: I can only reiterate what I have said earlier to the Hon. Member, Madam President.
2135 The President: Final supplementary, Mr Karran.
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Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, does the Minister not agree that if he has no criteria for such levels, does that not mean that that really is spin as far as that is concerned; (Mrs Beecroft: Yes.) and does he not feel that it is not unreasonable for us to be saying that, if you have not actually got 2140 some criteria? There is an old saying: there’s none so blind as those that don't want to look as far as when it comes to these social problems.
The President: Minister.
2145 The Minister: I have got nothing to add to Mr Karran’s opinion on that, Madam President.
21. Fuel poverty – Reducing excess winter deaths
The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Minister for Health:
How he will reduce excess winter deaths without a definition of fuel poverty to assist his Department?
The President: Question 21. The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. 2150 I ask the Question standing in my name.
The President: The Minister for Health to reply.
The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, excess deaths as a result of 2155 exposure to cold conditions do not generally occur on Health Services premises. However, we take our responsibilities very seriously with regard to advice we provide to the community, and to that end the Department of Health issued advice in November, in conjunction with other agencies, which will be of great assistance to the general public. The advice covers a wide range of topics such as vaccination, practising good hygiene, 2160 keeping active, eating sensibly, keeping warm and heating your home. As you are aware, the further detailed advice can be found on our website and was circulated in November, and I will circulate the link to you as this may be of help to you with some of your constituents who may benefit from this information.
2165 The President: Supplementary, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Again, I would point the Minister to his own Strategy for the Future of Health Services in the Isle of Man, and I would ask him again how he can reduce without the definition of fuel poverty 2170 because it quite clearly states, in section 4, ‘The Health of Older People’… If I may just quote one paragraph, Madam President, it may assist the Minister in answering me:
‘Significant proportions of people aged 65 and over live alone. Older people living alone are likely to need more support in their homes and are at increased risk of emergency admission to hospital. In the Isle of Man, more deaths occur during the winter months, particularly deaths in the elderly. These are referred to as ‘excess winter deaths’, and are most commonly due to circulatory and respiratory conditions which can be exacerbated by cold conditions. They can be reduced by tackling fuel poverty among older people, ensuring that they are not isolated in the colder months and have access to good nutrition, warm housing and warm apparel when outside their homes.’
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How can he say that it can be reduced by tackling fuel poverty when again he has not got a measure of fuel poverty to measure it against? How does he know what is working? 2175 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Madam President, we can see evidence from other jurisdictions round about that shows how you can benefit by giving advice in different areas, and I listed those to the Hon. 2180 Member, and we do that on a regular basis. As I said, on our website it gives very detailed advice to individuals on how they can protect themselves. Yes, there are more deaths on the Isle of Man in the winter period, but there are in every other developed country. It is a fact of life because the climate changes in the winter and therefore we give advice based on the reasons why that takes place. 2185 The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Could the Minister clarify why we are not collating our own evidence? Given that our fuel 2190 costs are substantially different to any jurisdiction close to us, surely we go on our own Manx evidence, not other jurisdictions'.
The President: Minister.
2195 The Minister: The data is not accurate to us. We have the data of deaths that go through Noble’s Hospital; however, that cannot be taken as accurate as only deaths through Noble’s Hospital are the ones we have access to. We could invent something to collate all the evidence, but I ask the Hon. Member: really, what benefit would that be? As long as we know we are taking the steps to help people in these 2200 situations, to minimise those, surely that is the most important thing that we should be doing.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell.
Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. 2205 Would the Health Minister agree with me that there appears to be, and has been for several years, a natural resistance for the Isle of Man to adopt the British definition of fuel poverty because it was brought about by – I think, if memory serves me right – a Labour government, and in previous administrations has been tweaked subsequently? Would he concur with me that that is not sufficient reason for not establishing a benchmark 2210 to ensure that the Department is in fact picking up those people who really do suffer fuel poverty, and as a consequence will no doubt become a burden on the health state of the nation; and that it would be helpful for the Isle of Man to establish its own fuel poverty definition so that they have got a proper benchmark?
2215 The President: Minister.
The Minister: I would agree with the Hon. Member. Just because a political party has introduced something is not necessarily the reason why we should not be adopting it here. My understanding is there would need to be quite a lot of cross-departmental work to put 2220 something in place on the Island and that is the reason why it has not happened.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran.
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Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree that one of the concerns 2225 highlighted from his reply is that many outside this Hon. Court will see that this issue of the underclass not being seen as a priority is one of the concerns that many people have about this inclusion as far as the difficult times he does have as Minister for Health? If he does not prioritise the likes of this important issue, allowing for the fuel costs being much harder on the Isle of Man, this will obviously support their views that somehow people are not interested, in 2230 this Chamber, in these vulnerable sections of society.
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Of course that is not the case at all. One of the priorities of this Government is 2235 to protect the vulnerable, and I do not agree with his terminology of this 'underclass': we must protect the vulnerable in our society, wherever they may be.
22. Breast cancer prevention – Vitamin D 2240 The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Hall) to ask the Minister for Health:
What recent assessment he has made of prescribing vitamin D on the NHS to women to protect against breast cancer; and if he will make a statement?
The President: Question 22. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Hall.
Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name. 2245 The President: The Minister for Health to reply.
The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, the Clinical Recommendations Committee has undertaken a review of the current issues for vitamin D as advised by NICE. This 2250 has found that NICE does not currently support the use of vitamin D to protect women against breast cancer. There is no good-quality evidence that suggests this is an effective preventative measure. A healthy lifestyle is a much better way of helping prevent such cancers and a healthy diet will include adequate amounts of vitamin D.
2255 The President: Supplementary, Mr Hall.
Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. Would the Minister not agree with me that evidence that vitamin D supplements may combat breast cancer has indeed been building up for some time now? Is he aware, for example, 2260 that in 2008 I believe a Canadian study showed that breast cancer patients with good vitamin D levels were about half as likely to die from the disease as those with a serious deficiency? I also further understand that Norwegian and German studies have also reached similar conclusions, so perhaps he may wish to go back and revisit the matter.
2265 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Madam President, it is not an area, I must admit to the Hon. Member, I am an expert in. I am quite happy for the relevant committee within my Department to look at that; ______457 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
however, I would just like to highlight that as far as NICE is concerned, you are just as likely to 2270 get the benefits from eating foods that contain a high level of vitamin D, like dairy products and fish.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Hall.
2275 Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. My final supplementary: would the Minister… or is he aware that very recently one leading cancer professor in the UK has said that it is established science that women who have got higher vitamin D levels have a much better chance of beating the disease, and that at only approximately 12 pence per woman per day it would not only be a low-cost, cheap intervention 2280 but would also likely spare many women the agony of developing the disease, and therefore actually could save the NHS money in the medium to long term?
The President: Minister.
2285 The Minister: I am sure that individual report says that individual bit of advice; however, you can actually pick and choose a range of recommendations from a range of clinicians across the spectrum to get the answer you want, Madam President. I am quite happy for the relevant committee in our Department to revisit this, but I know it is something they have already looked into with some rigour. 2290 The President: Supplementary, the Hon. Member, Mr Butt.
Mr Butt: Thank you, Madam President. I wonder, could the Minister take this occasion to confirm that, because we live in a… 54° 2295 north, it is important that we do get a proper diet, which takes in vitamin D, and that those who are at risk – i.e. the elderly, some young children etc – would be well advised take vitamin D supplements, and in fact the GP surgeries do advise that for vulnerable groups and that is how their health is looked after in the Isle of Man?
2300 The President: Minister.
The Minister: I thank the Hon. Member for his information.
The President: Hon. Members, it is one o’clock. I wonder if you would wish to continue to 2305 conclude the Oral Questions.
It was agreed.
HOME AFFAIRS
23. Police cells – Overnight stays; cost
The Hon. Member for Middle (Mr Quayle) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:
(a) What percentage of police cell usage was as a result of alcohol or drug excesses and how many overnight stays in a police cell this caused in each of the last five years; and (b) what the cost is to the Police Force for an overnight stay in a police cell? ______458 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: The Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle.
2310 Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name.
The President: The Minister for Home Affairs to reply.
2315 The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Watterson): Madam President, the electronic data is regrettably not available to calculate the total number of overnight stays or the percentage of cell usage relating specifically to alcohol or drug excesses. However, in order to be as helpful as possible to the Hon. Member for Middle, I am pleased to be able to provide the following information. 2320 In answer to part (a) of the Question, statistics for the past five years are as follows: the percentage of all arrests where intoxication was noted was 54% in 2008-09; 52% in 2009-10 and 2010-11; 51% in 2011-12; and 50% in 2012-13. The percentage of all arrests with both intoxication and overnight stay in the cells was 39% in 2008-09 and 2009-10; 41% in 2010-11; 37% in 2011-12 and 2012-13. 2325 The actual number of arrests with both intoxication and overnight stay in the cells was 943 in 2008-09; 968 in 2009-10; 985 in 2010-11; 769 in 2011-12; and 643 in 2012-13. The data I have provided relates specifically to alcohol, as the Police have no reliable method of collating and presenting data on drug intoxication alone. Arrests for drug offences do not signify intoxication as the reason for an overnight detention. 2330 In answer to part (b) of the Question, the average cost of a stay in a police cell is £383, and unfortunately, within the time available I have not been able to determine the difference between the fixed and variable costs of that amount.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Quayle. 2335 Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. Given the quite alarming cost of providing a bed-and-breakfast service for a small number in society who choose to make themselves so drunk or high that they need to be placed in a prison cell – and I have just worked out that for the last year alone it will have cost the Police Force 2340 circa £250,000 – would the Minister agree with me that, with the exception of members of the public undergoing treatment to help with their addiction problems, now is the time to introduce a charge for a stay in a police cell as a result of alcohol or drug excesses? (Interjection)
The President: Minister. 2345 The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. I would just point out that with the costs that I have outlined to the Hon. Member I have not been able to establish what of that is fixed cost – the amount that we would have to be paying anyway, even if the cells lay empty overnight. 2350 It is something that we are looking into, Madam President. We do, of course, have the fundamental problem of potentially charging somebody for a night in the cells where they are not actually guilty of an offence, and that of course would lead to its own problems, so it is not quite as simple and straightforward. I have been down to the police station, to police custody, on a Friday night. For those who 2355 are provided with a meal, it is a £1 microwave ready meal, so the illusion that the Hon. Member conjures up in terms of a quaint bed-and-breakfast service is quite far from reality.
A Member: Iceland.
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2360 The President: Supplementary, Mr Quayle.
Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. I appreciate it is not exactly a stay in the Ritz that we are providing, but we are having to give valuable police time to inspect people every 15 minutes when they are in a cell, when they could 2365 be out on the street looking after members of the public. I just feel that if we send a message out, to the very small minority of people who are costing the taxpayer a considerable amount of money, that if you go out and you binge drink you are going to have to cover the costs of your behaviour (A Member: Hear, hear.) and – (Interjection)
2370 The President: Is there a question, sir?
Mr Quayle: Yes. Would he not agree that, despite the problems that he sees in coming up with a charge, it is still a good idea and should be looked; and that he will work with me in taking this policy forward? 2375 The President: Minister, I think you have already commented on the first part. Working with?
The Minister: Madam President, I would add that we are constantly looking at that cost base and looking at ways to revisit that. 2380 The Hon. Member's point is well made. It is a point that resonates, I am sure, and it is something that we may be able to look to further down the line in terms of being able to recover costs, but maybe through the courts system at that point. As I say, the Hon. Member's point is well made.
2385 The President: Hon. Members, that concludes consideration of Oral Questions. The remainder are for Written Answer. The Court will now adjourn until 2.30 p.m. Can I remind Members of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association that they are due at a meeting at quarter to two.
The Court adjourned at 1.05 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m. 2390
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Questions for Written Answer
CHIEF MINISTER
24. Cyber security – Government attendances at conferences
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Hall) to ask the Chief Minister:
(a) Whether an Isle of Man Government representative attended the Institute of International and European Affairs Cyber Security Conference which took place on 15th November 2013 in Dublin; and, if not, why not; and (b) whether the Isle of Man has ever received an invitation to attend the Meridian Process and what consideration he has given to the Government actively participating in the Meridian Process focusing on the Critical Information Infrastructure Protection (CIIP); and if he will make a statement?
Answer: Part (a) – Institute of International and European Affairs Cyber Security Conference The Department of Economic Development’s Information Systems Division (‘ISD’) have the primary responsibility across Isle of Man Government for technology security and by implication 2395 the broader responsibilities for cyber security. There are many events held each year on this topic and of varying degrees of relevance to individual sectors, public service bodies and geographic regions. No official representative from ISD attended the Institute of International and European Affairs Cyber Security Conference on 15th November in Dublin. This conference is one of many 2400 across Europe that run and in this case was targeted towards the Irish market, quoting the target audience as being ‘a major interest to CEOs, CFOs, CTOs, CIOs and CISOs in large Irish companies and major international corporations based in Ireland, as well as Semi States and State bodies.’ ISD did have representation at other events including recently at both the Information Assurance Advisory Council’s Annual Symposium on 11th September held in London, and the 2405 Cyber Security Summit 2013 held on 26th November 2013 also in London. Both these events were attended by representatives from the UK public sector including the Cabinet Office, the National Cyber Crime Unit and the Government Communications Headquarters and consequently were selected as being more appropriate opportunities to attend. Part (b) – Meridian Process Conference 2410 ISD are not aware of any part of Government ever attending a Meridian Process Conference and did not attend the 2013 Conference in Argentina. The Meridian Process is designed to focus globally on Critical Information Infrastructure Protection (‘CIIP’) and Isle of Man Government has links through the UK’s Centre for the Protection of National Infrastructure (‘CPNI’) and the UK Cyber-security Information Sharing 2415 Partnership (‘CISP’) and to date has felt that this is a more appropriate level to participate through rather than participate directly in global forums. The issue of cyber security and information protection is an increasingly important topic within Isle of Man Government and all governments in general and these links into advisory bodies and seminars will be reviewed regularly to ensure they remain appropriate. 2420
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25. Biological attacks – Protection; availability of vaccines
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Hall) to ask the Chief Minister:
If he will make a statement on measures his Government has considered and taken with regard to the availability of vaccines intended to protect the population against biological attack?
Answer: The Isle of Man has for years established planning mechanisms to deal with major emergencies including terrorist attacks. The current approach to planning for emergencies is ‘all hazards approach’ and this is what we have adopted. With specific reference to biological attack, Isle of Man Government Departments keep in 2425 close contact with other counterparts in the UK to obtain intelligence on this issue. We ensure that we have adequate facilities to deal with such attacks based on current and dynamic threat and risk assessment. In view of the security implications it would not be appropriate to make public the full details of the vaccines or other equipment we hold or we can access at short notice. However, I would 2430 like to assure the Court that we have adequate preparation in place and we continually monitor the situation across the globe and make appropriate changes to our plans to accommodate the changing situation.
26. Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 – Introduction of UK provisions to Island
The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Cannell) to ask the Chief Minister:
When the provisions of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 in England and Wales will be introduced into the Isle of Man?
Answer: The Isle of Man Government’s legislative programme does not include a Bill to enact similar provisions for the Island to those contained in the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013. 2435 No consideration has yet been given by the Council of Ministers to including such a Bill in the legislative programme.
SOCIAL CARE
27. DSC children’s homes – Department responsibilities; duty of care
The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Minister for Social Care:
If the Minister will state – (a) how many looked-after children the Department is responsible for in Department of Social Care children homes; (b) how many children’s homes his Department is responsible for; (c) how many children’s homes are run and managed by his Department; and
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(d) whether the Department has a duty of care for the children in its homes to ensure they are protected from harm and that their general health and welfare is promoted in line with Government policies?
Answer: (a) One in directly provided children’s homes and 28 in contracted children’s homes. (b) As noted in (c) the Department directly provides two children’s homes and currently contracts a further 13 from two different service providers. In addition, there is the Secure Care 2440 Home which is also currently registered as a children’s home; this service is also contracted to a provider organisation. (c) Two. These are the two resource centres for children with disabilities. They are registered as children’s homes as they provide an overnight respite care service. (d) Yes. The Department has a duty of care to all looked-after children, wherever they are 2445 placed, in accordance with policy procedure and legislation.
H M ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL
28. Criminal convictions of companies – Offences leading to possible conviction
The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask HM Acting Attorney General:
Which offences would give rise to a possible criminal conviction of a company in respect of offences relating to – (a) Income tax; (b) National insurance; (c) Value Added Tax; (d) Health and safety; (e) Planning; (f) Employment; and (g) Immigration or work permits?
Answer: I limit my Answer to referring to the main primary and secondary legislative provisions which give rise to the potential for an individual, company or other legal personality to be liable to criminal conviction. Providing a responsive which purports to be an exhaustive recital of each and every section within the following legislative provisions would, I consider, be 2450 a wholly disproportionate use of officer time and impossible within the timeframes for answering Questions. It should also be borne in mind that there is a double-headed test to be satisfied prior to pursuit of any criminal proceedings: firstly whether there is a sufficiency of evidence such that there is a good chance of conviction; and secondly, if the first test is established, whether it is in 2455 the public interest to pursue those proceedings. The primary legislative provisions (i.e. Acts) referred to below are all available on Chambers legislation website http://www.legislation.gov.im. The website also has links to secondary legislation (i.e. Orders and Regulations) from 2000 onwards and most of the entities responsible for the administration of the subject headings of the Question provide links through to relevant 2460 legislation on their own websites.
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(a) Income Tax There are a number of Isle of Man Acts and Tynwald approved Orders (Regulations) made thereunder which give rise to a potential criminal liability of individuals or companies (and on 2465 occasion company officers), the main ones being: • the Income Tax Acts 1970 – 2011 • the Income Tax (Instalment Payments) Act 1974 and the Income Tax (Modified I.T.I.P.) Regulation 1987 (as amended)
(b) National Insurance The Social Security Act 2000 (of Tynwald) enables respectively (i) the Department of Social Care and (ii) the Treasury to apply to the Isle of Man by order such parts of prescribed UK legislation or any Statutory Instrument thereunder to the Isle of Man, with such amendments, 2470 exceptions and adaptations as they (Treasury and Department of Social Care) see fit. Such Orders are required to be laid before Tynwald for approval. The main piece of Isle of Man legislation which creates a potential criminal liability for both companies (and on occasion their directors) and individuals in respect of National Insurance – in particular in relation non-submission of employer returns, any failure to pay contributions due 2475 and any failure to comply with an instruction given by an Inspector appoint under the Act – is through SD506/94 which extends the UK Social Security Administration Act 1992 (with modifications) to the Isle of Man.
(c) Value Added Tax 2480 The principal VAT offences, found in the Value Added Tax Act 1996, would be – • section 72 – Fraudulent evasion • section 72(3) – False statement or document for VAT purposes • section 72(8) – Conduct which must have involved an offence; where the conduct must have involved one or more section 72 offences, whether or not the particulars 2485 of those are known • section 72(10) – Acquiring/dealing in untaxed goods or services; where a person has reason to believe that VAT on the supply, import or acquisition has not been accounted for • section 72(11) – Supplying, or being supplied with, goods or services without 2490 providing security when this is required
A further VAT offence is – • paragraphs 53 to 55, Finance Act 2008 (as it has effect in the Island) – concealing, disposing of or destroying documents that are, or will be, the subject of an 2495 Information Notice, if notified by Customs and Excise that it is seeking a Notice from the Tribunal requiring production of the document(s)
There are also general customs offences which can be charged in relation to VAT matters, for example – 2500 • section 10, Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 – Obstruction of an officer • section 9, Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 – Bribery and collusion
Plus potential import/export offences, which could involve VAT, for example – • section 178, Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 – Fraudulent evasion (of 2505 import VAT) • section 176, Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 – Use of false document in relation to an assigned matter
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There are obviously a great many other customs, excise, sanctions and export and trade 2510 control offences to which a company could be liable, but which would not necessarily involve VAT specifically.
(d) Health and Safety UK legislation has been extended (with modifications, exceptions and adaptations) to the Isle 2515 of Man. The following are the main provisions which serve to give rise to a potential criminal liability for individuals, companies and on occasion company officers: • The Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (of Parliament) extended to the Isle of Man by the Health and Safety Order 1998 (SD 155/98) • The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 2003 (SD 877/03) 2520 • Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1985 (SI 1985/2023) extended to the Isle of Man by the Health and Safety (Reporting of Injuries etc.) Order 1992 (GC 518/92) • The Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2003 (SD 878/03) • The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1994 (1994 No. 1886) and applied 2525 in the Isle of Man by the Gas Safety (Application ) Order 1996 (SD 326/96)
Breach of the statutory provisions listed above is an offence under section 33(1) of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 I am advised by the Inspectorate that the 1974 Act, in addition to the listed Regulations, 2530 would cover the issues we would typically need to address at the majority of premises inspected by HSWI.
(e) Planning The main piece of legislation governing planning in the Island is the Town and Country 2535 Planning Act 1999 and the main provisions creating offences are: • section 23 (breach of planning control); • section 23A (breach of conditions attaching to planning control) • section 24 (procuring certificate of lawful use through false information) • section 25 (failure to provide information about activities on land) 2540 • sections 26 and 27 (breaches relating to Enforcement notice and Stop Notice) • section 29 (breach of registered building control); • section 30 (acts likely to damage registered building); • section 31 (breach of Enforcement notice relating to registered building)or • section 35 (breach of advertisement control) 2545 Section 39 establishes that offences committed by companies with the connivance or knowledge of company officers may see those officers face potential criminal liability.
(f) Employment 2550 There are numerous pieces of Isle of Man legislation giving rise to a potential criminal liability on employers or in an employment context, including but not limited to the Control of Employment Act 1975, the Shops Act 2000, the Employment Act 2006, the Redundancy Payments Act 1990, the Employers’ Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act 1976, the Employment (Sex Discrimination) Act 2000, the Employment Agencies Act 1975, the Minimum Wage Act 2555 2001, the Trade Disputes Act 1985, the Trade Disputes (Regulation) Act 1936 and the Trade Unions Act 1991.
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(g) Immigration The Asylum and Immigration Act 1996, as extended to the Isle of Man by the Immigration 2560 (Isle of Man) Order 2008 (an Order in Council extending UK legislation to the Isle of Man) http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/680/pdfs/uksi_20080680_en.pdf (g)(ii) Work Permits The Control of Employment Act 1975 and the Control of Employment Regulations 1993 are the main pieces of Isle of Man legislation serving to give rise to a potential criminal liability on 2565 any legal person (which includes a company).
COMMUNITY, CULTURE AND LEISURE
29. Bus services – Assessment of routes
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Hall) to ask the Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure:
What recent assessment he has made of which bus services he considers to be socially necessary and which would not otherwise be provided commercially; what proportion this represents of total bus services; and if he will make a statement?
Answer: Social inclusion which is linked to the protection of the vulnerable which is a Government policy matter that requires significant input from a number of Departments and other agencies before arriving at a policy and level of funding that balances the social needs of our residents with the available finance. The provision of socially necessary bus services is not a 2570 decision that should be taken by the operator of the bus service. The Department will be seeking to increase those services which are well used by fare paying passengers, in particular the popular Night Owl services, in order that demand and supply needs can be maximised. In addition the Department is continuing to reduce operational costs to ensure that public transport is operated as efficiently as possible. 2575 We have limited management information to undertake an accurate assessment of socially necessary routes, although it is estimated that 60% of all passengers travel for free.
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
30. Establishment of TT museum – Update on progress
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Economic Development:
What progress has been made with establishing a TT Museum?
Answer: Work has been ongoing to explore how a TT Museum, or more accurately a TT attraction, can be progressed for the Isle of Man. The TT is a two-week annual event that has attracted increasing numbers of visitors to the Island, in fact nearly 40,000 visitors this year. It 2580 remains our biggest single tourist attraction and demand for accommodation and travel by sea and air is extremely high during the period of the Festival. A TT attraction on the Island would
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provide a year-round appeal for TT and motorsport fans, helping to boost visitor numbers. The Department is exploring how this can be achieved within the resources available to Government. The member with political responsibility for Tourism and Motorsport, Mr Skelly MHK, has had 2585 several meetings with potential investors and parties interested in the attraction, including Manx National Heritage, and has been considering sites within Government ownership that might be suitable for such a development. There are several potential sites that have been identified, as has interest from private sector investors. The Department is conscious of the need to progress this initiative in an affordable and sustainable way and our strategy is to seek private 2590 sector investment in the development of the attraction. We hope to make a more detailed announcement on progress with this project at TT 2014.
EDUCATION AND CHILDREN
31. Secondary schools – Pupil truancy rate
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Hall) to ask the Minister for Education and Children:
How many pupils committed truancy from secondary schools in each of the past three academic years?
Answer: The Department is unable to provide the details requested without looking at each pupil’s attendance for each year. As the DEC has in the region of 5,700 pupils at the five Island secondary schools, this would require officers to review over 17,000 records. 2595 We are however able to provide the following details relating to unauthorised absences.
Number Days % of total of Lost pupils Sessions recording (½ day) unauthorised absences 2010-2011 13,666 6,833 0.39% 2011-2012 12,892 6,446 0.36% 2012-2013 14,572 7,286 0.42%
An unauthorised absence is recorded against a pupil: • if there has been no explanation provided by the parent as to the reason; • holidays are taken during term time for which the head teacher has declined to give permission, as they have requested more than 10 days or the pupil’s attendance is 2600 already a cause for concern.
ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE
32. Puppy farming – Introduction of legislation to outlaw
The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:
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Whether his Department intends to bring in legislation to outlaw puppy farming?
Answer: Further to my Written Answer made in the House of Keys on the 26th November 2013, I confirm that my Department has legislative controls regarding the breeding of dogs, in the Isle of Man, under powers provided by the Breeding of Dogs and Cats Act 1981. These 2605 controls provide for the licensing of establishments with more than two breeding bitches, and licensing takes into account the conditions in which the animals are accommodated, bred, and generally kept, and has a requirement for adequate recordings of breeding activities. Such premises are inspected by the Department, at least annually and more frequently if required. 2610 While I would not expect establishments that would meet the hon. questioner’s definition of ‘puppy farming’ to meet the current licensing criteria, I do hope to introduce further legislation on the welfare of pets and companion animals, which would provide for the tightening and modernisation of these provisions.
HEALTH
33. Public swimming pools – Guidelines for use of chloramine
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Hall) to ask the Minister for Health:
What current guidelines are in place for public swimming pools in relation to chloramine being a possible cause of asthma; and if he will make a statement?
Answer: Chloramine is a by-product of disinfection with chlorine when chlorine combines 2615 with sweat, urine and other waste from swimmers. If the level of chloramine is high it causes irritation of the eyes and breathing difficulties. High levels of chloramines can trigger acute asthmatic attacks in someone with asthma. The role of chloramine in causing asthma is not clear – there have been some studies that asthma in swimming pool workers could be caused by chloramine but this is only based on observation and is not conclusive. Monitoring the water 2620 quality and the quality of air above the swimming pool and ensuring there is regular cleaning/turnover can reduce the levels of chloramine The Isle of Man’s Health and Safety at Work Inspectorate recommend that standards contained in the UK HSE document HSG 179 ‘Managing Health and Safety in Swimming Pools’ are adopted by those with responsibility for managing health and safety in swimming pools. This 2625 document contains guidance on how to minimise the build-up of chloramines by emphasising the importance of visiting the toilet and taking a hot shower (using soap) before entry into pools. Information on the importance of maintaining correct chlorination levels is also contained in the document. Adoption of the standards contained in HSG 179 will allow swimming pool managers to 2630 demonstrate that they are compliant with Manx health and safety legislation. In particular, the importance of pre-pool showers in terms of guidelines, the HSG Document HSG 179, is the guidance health and safety inspectors are likely to use as a benchmark when investigating complaints and carrying out routine visits to swimming pool undertakings and related premises. With specific regard to the prevention of a build-up of chloramines in pools, 2635 guidance is given in this document in so far as it provides guidance for continued pool hygiene, correct chlorination levels and pool user pre-pool preparation, including the use of hot showers and visiting the toilet prior to entering the pool (particularly problematic with groups of young children). ______468 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
This Answer was prepared with the help of our colleagues in the Department of 2640 Infrastructure.
34. Genito-Urinary Medicine Clinic – Number of new attendances
The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Health:
How many new attendances by (a) 16 – 24 year olds; and (b) over 24’s there were at the Genito-Urinary Medicine Clinic each month between September 2012 and September 2013?
Answer: Please find below the information requested regarding attendances at the Genito- Urinary Medicine (GUM) Clinic split up by month. As you will see the final column contains a number of patients who, as yet, have not been discharged from the GUM service or their episode of care is awaiting final coding, therefore they are not included in the totals as finished 2645 episodes. For the purpose of the data you requested, however, the month they attended the service is included in the table. Should you require any further information or explanation please do not hesitate to contact me.
Out of range/not Month Total 16 – 24 % of total Over 25 % of total coded Sep-12 172 74 43 95 55 3 Oct-12 169 69 40 97 57.5 3 Nov-12 175 89 51 85 48.5 1 Dec-12 114 51 44.5 60 52.6 3 Jan-13 188 74 39 97 51.5 17 Feb-13 166 67 40 90 54 9 Mar-13 168 74 44 94 56 0 Apr-13 200 88 44 100 50 12 May-13 177 84 47.5 92 52 1 Jun-13 141 67 47.5 63 44.5 11 Jul-13 167 73 43.5 88 52.5 6 Aug-13 190 87 46 98 51.5 5 Sep-13 189 77 40 93 49 19
35. Independent review body – Number of complaints considered; costs
The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Health:
How many complaints were considered by an Independent Review Body (a) convenor; and (b) special panel in 2010-11, 2011-12, and 2012-13; and what the cost was broken down by year and method of consideration? 2650
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Answer: From 1st April 2010 to 31st March 2011 • 13 complaints were received in total by the IRB • 4 complaints were reviewed by a convenor, who considered a panel hearing was not required • 8 complaints were reviewed by a convenor, appeals were made by the complainants to a second convenor; panel hearings were not required • 1 complaint was referred for a panel hearing Total cost – £46,453.
From 1st April 2011 to 31st March 2012 • 14 complaints were received in total by the IRB • 6 complaints were reviewed by a convenor, who considered a panel hearing was not required • 1 complaint was reviewed by a convenor, an appeal was made by the complainant to a second convenor; a panel hearing was not required • 7 complaints were referred for a panel hearing Total cost – £52,501.
From 1st April 2012 to 31st March 2013 • 11 complaints were received in total by the IRB • 4 complaints were reviewed by a convenor, who considered a panel hearing was not required • 2 complaints were reviewed by a Convenor, appeals were made by the complainants to a second convenor; panel hearings were not required • 5 complaints were referred for a panel hearing Total cost – £71,291.
It should be noted that on each occasion the Convenor will issue a full and detailed report with conclusions which may include recommendations to improve the Service should that be felt applicable. 2655 Similarly, a second convenor will also issue a full report, but he/she will not have had access to the report or correspondence of the first convenor. It also has to be borne in mind that often complaints are received and referred back because it is considered by the Hospital that local resolution has not been completed. It may also be that the convenor considering the complaint, after reviewing the correspondence, will decide that a 2660 further attempt at local resolution should be undertaken and will make such a recommendation. The costs for each year include the professional fees, accommodation and travel costs for specialist clinical assessors from the UK, normally two for each panel hearing.
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Order of the Day
3. Disability Discrimination Act 2006 – Statement by the Minister for Social Care
The President: We turn now to our main Order Paper at Item 3. I call on the Minister for 2665 Social Care to make a Statement.
The Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you, Madam President. As Hon. Members will be aware, in April this year this Hon. Court approved a motion stating:
‘That Tynwald acknowledges the work undertaken to date on the phased implementation of the Disability Discrimination Act; and is of the opinion that this phased approach should continue and that the Department should publish by the end of 2013 a timetable detailing next steps for the implementation of the Act.’
My Department has continued the progression of work as outlined to this Hon. Court in April. 2670 A multi-agency forum with representatives from the private and third sectors has been established and is holding regular meetings. In addition, the Department has developed and agreed a service specification with Crossroads for the provision of the access service. However, as Hon. Members will be aware, since giving this commitment, the Chief Minister has announced the Government’s intention to bring forward new equality legislation based on 2675 the UK Equality Act 2010. The new equality legislation will repeal the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) in its entirety. This is because discrimination for disabled people under the proposed equality legislation will go further than the DDA in a range of circumstances, covering the provision of goods, facilities and services, the exercise of public functions, premises, work, education and associations. 2680 The Department has been provided with anticipated timescales for the development of the new equality legislation, and given that we have received confirmation it will repeal the Disability Discrimination Act in its entirety, we have had to take this into account when looking at implementation. My Department has therefore considered in detail the practical implications of taking 2685 forward the implementation of the Act itself and discussed potential options with the multi- agency forum. In light of this, I would like to set out the following timetable. January to April 2014 – progression of the tiered award scheme through the access service provided by Crossroads Care and supported by the Departments of Social Care and 2690 Infrastructure. April to December 2014 – engagement on disability issues, programme of communication, forums etc with key stakeholders, to raise awareness of the tiered award scheme. May 2014 – anticipated consultation on new equality legislation. August to January 2015 – development by the Department and multi-agency forum of: (1) 2695 determination of ‘reasonable’ in context of the draft equality legislation; (2) regulations and guidance required for the implementation of the draft equality legislation. January to May 2016 – second phase of engagement on disability issues in preparation for implementation of the new equality legislation. Second quarter of 2016 – anticipated Royal Assent for new equality legislation, subject to 2700 public consultation, response and approval by the branches. July 2016 – anticipated implementation of disability parts of the new equality legislation. As you will know, the Department, in conjunction with the multi-agency forum, will both input into the development of the equality legislation and also progress the required work around the determination of ‘reasonable’ and any required regulations and guidance. This will
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2705 enable the implementation of the provisions of the equality legislation relating to disability to be implemented shortly following Royal Assent. In addition, the Department and the multi-agency forum will oversee the implementation of the tiered award scheme and promote its use across the private and third sectors. The Department would also, outside of the formal consultation process on the new equality 2710 legislation, lead a programme of engagement with key stakeholders promoting the tiered award scheme and raising awareness of disability issues. It is anticipated that this would allow implementation of the disability provisions of the equality legislation from July 2016. This should not be interpreted as a delay in implementation, but simple practical management of the integration of the two pieces of legislation. 2715 Madam President, the Department considers the approach taken will avoid any confusion amongst the public and businesses about consultation on regulations under an Act that will be subsequently repealed. In addition, a greater period of engagement and time for the tiered award scheme to operate would be more beneficial and help raise awareness of disability issues ahead of the enactment 2720 of the new equality legislation. Thank you, Madam President.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quirk.
2725 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. I do thank the Minister for the notes that came forward, first of all. It is more than helpful when Ministers actually do that – so you may take note, other Ministers. With reference to the multi-agency forum, I wonder if the Minister could expand. He has mentioned Crossroads Care, but I wonder who the other partners in that scheme would be and 2730 how it ties up. The tiered award scheme that is mentioned on the last page – I wonder if the Minister could possibly indicate if there is, for businesses and other organisations and sometimes charities as well… if they can do self-assessment towards the award scheme? Can they do it any earlier, or be evaluated or get some points as they are going forward to receiving accreditation? 2735 The final thing from me is, I suppose like anything, is there any fee charged by this multi- agency forum or your Department?
The President: Minister.
2740 The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. Turning first to the multi-agency forum, many Members will remember the quite impressive presentation made by Gareth Foulkes from the Manx Deaf Society – many months ago now, I think it was – and we all went away with an awful lot to think about following that. I am very pleased to say – very pleased indeed – that Gareth is actually chairing the multi-agency forum 2745 and is providing a very important role in that regard. The other members are Crossroads, the Department of Economic Development, Manx Blind Welfare, the Chamber of Commerce, Manx Telecom, Douglas Council, KPMG and Appleby.
Mr Braidwood: And the TACD. 2750 The Minister: With regard to the self-assessment by the tiered award scheme, one or two companies will actually be quite soon offered the opportunity to pilot the award scheme and we are very much mindful to enact it and to engage with it as early as we possibly can. I cannot answer the… I am not quite clear about the issue of fees. Could the Hon. Member for 2755 Onchan reiterate that particular point, Madam President?
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Mr Quirk: Yes, Madam President. Are there to be any fees charged by this agency or his Department?
2760 The Minister: Madam President, no.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh just reassure us that, whilst it is applaudable 2765 about the issue of the equality legislation… We have come a long way in the last 20 years, but this situation seems to be ‘jam tomorrow’. We had the framework for the Disability Discrimination Act. We are now told we are not going to do that because we are going to go for the Equalities Bill. Surely a bird in the hand is better than a bird in the bush, and why does he not just to get the 2770 Disability Discrimination Act enforced as part of the role in order that we can carry on and get some sort of cover for this vulnerable sector of the community?
The President: Minister.
2775 The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. If I was a backbencher and I was asking the Minister that question today, that is exactly the one I would ask because it does appear that we are trying to delay it. Not at all. The multi-agency forum was tasked with dealing with the issue of how we would manage to integrate the consultation on two Bills more or less at the same time, with one Bill disappearing 2780 pretty well as quickly as it came in. Unfortunately, the way the timing works, we would have, had we gone ahead, been consulting on the Equality Bill on disability issues before we finalised the consultation on the regulations for the DDA, and it would have caused enormous confusion. So the multi-agency forum set its mind to this and considered it very hard indeed, for the very reason that the Hon. Member for Onchan mentions, and concluded – chaired by Gareth Foulkes 2785 – that the right way forward was the one that I have described.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. 2790 Firstly, I would like to congratulate the Minister on his openness as to why he has taken this route as opposed to the Disability Discrimination Act, and I certainly wish him well with it. I would just be grateful if he would give a bit more information on the tiered award scheme, exactly how it works – just a bit more detail, if you could flesh that out for us, Minister, please.
2795 The President: Minister.
The Minister: I think the best thing I can do, Madam President, is circulate all Members with a fulsome articulation of our plans in that regard, and I hope that will be acceptable to the Hon. Member. (Mrs Beecroft: Thank you.) Thank you. 2800 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President, and to the Minister for this briefing. Did the Department of Social Care request any advice from the Tynwald Advisory Committee 2805 on Disability; and if so, did it receive any? Obviously, the Tynwald Advisory Committee on Disability is, I think, set up under the Disability Discrimination Act, so would that be abolished when the Disability Discrimination Act is removed from the legislation? The second supplementary as well, Madam President… ______473 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: Put your questions now, sir. 2810 Mr Thomas: The second one is that earlier I asked the Minister whether or not the DSC had budgets in 2014, 2015 and 2016 for disability work, and I wondered whether the Minister was now in a position to answer that question.
2815 The President: Minister.
The Minister: With regard to the second part, not at this stage, Madam President. With regard to whether we consulted, I met with the Tynwald advisory group on a couple of occasions, engaged with them, as have officers, and have been kept fully in the loop, and I 2820 cannot imagine a situation where we would want to see that group abolished – it fulfils a very important role.
Announcement of Royal Assent
The President: Before we move on to Item 4, Hon. Members, I can announce that Royal Assent has been given to the Clergy Discipline (Amendment) Measure (Isle of Man) 2013 and the Churchwardens Measure (Isle of Man) 2013.
4. Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee – Statement by the Chairman
2825 The President: Item 4. I call on the Chairman of the Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee.
The Chairman of the Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee (Mr Butt): Thank you, Madam President. 2830 As you say, I speak as the Chair of the Environment and Infrastructure Scrutiny Committee. A remit was set by Tynwald on 21st May this year, and the remit was that the matter of current agricultural policy, particularly in respect of the Countryside Care Scheme, the Meat Plant and associated matters, be referred to the Environment and Infrastructure Scrutiny Committee to report by December 2013. Madam President, it has not proved practicable to 2835 meet this timescale. The Committee appealed for evidence from the public and has received, and indeed continues to receive, a substantial amount of interest and submissions on the topic. Oral evidence was taken in November from the Minister and Chief Executive Officer of the Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture (DEFA). On 5th December, oral evidence in 2840 public was taken from the local food processors – Laxey Glen Flour Mills Ltd, Isle Of Man Creameries and Isle of Man Meats. A further oral evidence session is planned with the Minister and Chief Executive in early January in order to give them the opportunity to respond to the evidence presented to them. It is also possible that further evidence may be required, depending on the outcome of our enquiries. 2845 The Committee is giving consideration to all the evidence received and is continuing its investigations and will report as soon as possible. Thank you, Madam President.
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5. Isle of Man College Construction Crafts and Engineering, Phase 1 – Expenditure approved
The Minister for Education and Children to move:
That Tynwald approves of the Department of Education and Children incurring expenditure not exceeding £3,080,000 in respect of the ‘IOM College Construction Crafts and Engineering - Phase 1’ scheme.
[Reference G12-030 Item No 6 under the heading ‘Education and Children’ on page 25 of the 2013-14 Isle of Man Budget and under the Estimates of Capital Payments 2013-14 to 2017-18 on page 67 of the 2013-14 Budget.]
The President: Item 5, the Minister for Education and Children to move. 2850 The Minister for Education and Children (Mr Crookall): Thank you, Madam President. As early as 2004, the former Department of Trade and Industry were looking to develop a new training centre incorporating their own headquarters, and a feasibility study was undertaken for potential new development at Ballafletcher and Glencrutchery. 2855 With the subsequent transfer of the responsibility for the provision of training to the then Department of Education, the Pink Book provision and task of finding a suitable solution fell to the Department of Education. In the meantime, pending development, the College has undertaken construction craft and engineering training across three separate locations, having to supplement their own facilities 2860 with the continued use of the former DTI workshops at Hills Meadow and through the use of the former Marown Engineering building at Union Mills. The Department originally considered that a complete redevelopment of the existing construction, crafts and engineering building at the College was the answer. However, with the development of the new Douglas water treatment works, the potential to utilise the old 2865 treatment works site to solve the problem became apparent. Under this proposed capital scheme, we are seeking to develop the new facilities for engineering and motor vehicle engineering at the old water treatment works site, making full use of the existing buildings which are suitable for conversion and extension, and then using the space created by the relocation of engineering to provide suitably-sized modern construction 2870 craft facilities at the College's Homefield Road campus. The current economic situation on the Island has more than ever before focused Government’s mind on the importance of strong home-grown construction and engineering sectors, and it is essential that suitable up-to-date training facilities are provided to support these industries in bringing through the next generation of engineers and tradesmen. 2875 The widening of vocational choices to complement or offer an alternative to the more conventional academic examination routes at 14 to 16 and beyond is also a key departmental priority. Appropriate asset management of the Government property portfolio, proper management and maintenance of buildings, the use of buildings and sites in Government ownership wherever 2880 possible, and the release of buildings which are surplus to requirements to realise capital receipts for the Treasury, enabling Departments and budget holders to operate efficiently in suitable facilities with rationalisation and centralisation of service provision, wherever possible… The proposed scheme will underline Government support of the construction and engineering sectors; enable the establishment of appropriate maintained built facilities, disposal 2885 of the Union Mills site and utilisation of the Hills Meadow site for other purposes; and facilitate optimal resourcing and operation of the engineering and construction craft facilities created.
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In order to avoid early tendering of the construction craft element of the scheme – which cannot start on site until the engineering element has been completed and is operational – it was agreed with Treasury to progress the scheme through Tynwald in two separate phases, with 2890 phase 1, the engineering part, today and with phase 2, construction crafts, currently targeted for June 2014 Tynwald. The new engineering facility sought under this phase will enable the College to take a proactive approach to future demands made upon the programme area, including developing further the schools’ 14 to 16 link to provide young people with enhanced and modern 2895 engineering and motor vehicle facilities; providing the capacity to train a greater number of HGV specialists on Island; developing new green engineering and motor vehicle curriculum initiatives; providing laboratories for the testing of engineering materials and the building of electronic devices; practical areas designed to replicate realistic workshop environments, where individuals can work on industry-standard equipment, such as computer numerical control (CNC) machines, 2900 engine analysers and electrical switchboards; also enabling multiple groups of students to be taught in one single workshop space, allowing greater space utilisation with increased levels of safety; and providing workshop space for maritime engineering to be developed in conjunction with the Liverpool John Moores University Maritime Academy, designed to support the Island’s shipping industry. 2905 A more flexible learning environment will facilitate more efficient timetabling and allow larger lecture groups with multiple workshop opportunities. The student experience will also be enhanced by a more visible usage of machinery. The new facilities will provide more flexibility and opportunity for staff to develop new skills and enrich the curriculum, including new areas for development, such as the space industry, new fuel systems, hybrid cars, motorcycles and 2910 robotics. The phase 1 scheme, brought before you today, is to provide improved facilities for engineering on the old water treatment works site at Greenfield Road, just down the road from the main Isle of Man College campus. The main engineering facilities will be created through conversion and extension of the treatment works building. 2915 On the main upper ground floor, the original filter hall will become the main engineering hall, housing the machinery and workshop areas, with a classroom and Computer Aided Design (CAD) and computer-aided machinery (CAM) area directly off it. Also at this level, with the new extension, is a materials laboratory, an electronics classroom, toilets and staff office accommodation. 2920 At the first-floor level there are three classrooms, including for mechanical science and electrical engineering. At lower ground level, within the existing building, there is to be an electrical engineering workshop and stores, staff room and meeting room. An extension at this level includes the main entrance foyer, which will include a student area and a toilet, an electrical engineering workshop and the plant room. 2925 A separate motor vehicle engineering workshop is also to be built within the old water treatment works site. The proposed workshop comprises four vehicle ramps, a vehicle testing bay, a brake testing area, a tyre change area, a vehicle parts area, an adjacent write-up classroom area, with a technicians’ base and toilets. External works will be undertaken to include the access driveway, car parking area and hard 2930 and soft landscaping. The proposed works are shown on the drawings provided with the explanatory memorandum. The phase 2 scheme, for construction from September 2014 through to June 2015, will complete the project by providing improved facilities for the four construction crafts: brickwork, joinery, painting and decorating. Plumbing, at the main College building, will utilise the space 2935 created by the vacation of engineering under this phase 1 scheme. The phase 2 scheme has currently progressed at design stage and the proposed works are also shown on the drawings provided with the explanatory memorandum.
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Following competitive tendering, the Department proposes to enter into a contract with Auldyn Construction Ltd for the phase 1 construction works in the sum of £2,697,114, with the 2940 works planned to commence on 6th January 2014 for construction completion by 15th August 2014. Other development costs are included, of £762,886, for the professional fees, the site investigations, contract guarantee bond, insurances, building regulation fees, furniture, fitting of equipment, transfer and commissioning of equipment, IT transfer, feasibility fees, previous DTI 2945 and DEC… and site supervision. The total cost of the proposed phase 1 development is £3,460,000. A breakdown of this cost is included within the explanatory memorandum. The approved Pink Book budget provision is £4,911,800. The overall scheme, including estimated phase 2 development cost of £1,425,000, as also detailed within the explanatory memorandum, is therefore currently £26,800 within the 2950 approved capital budget. Tynwald has approved pre-contract and enabling expenditure of £380,000 and the Department therefore seeks approval to the phase 1 construction cost of £3,080,000. A sum of £86,500 will be available from the capital projects risk contingency, subject to Treasury concurrence. 2955 In addition to loan charges for the overall scheme of £225,800 per annum, we have estimated an annual revenue cost of £96,900 in respect of cleaning staff and additional rates, heating and power, minor repairs, maintenance and the cleaning materials in respect of the new phase 1 engineering site. This, together with the revenue implications of the phase 2 construction craft scheme, is to be met from within our existing resources, with some of the 2960 costs offset by the savings in vacating the Union Mills premises. Tynwald approval for the proposed phase 1 scheme will enable the Department to transform the teaching and learning environment for engineering, facilitate the training needs and curriculum changes for the 21st century, and produce well-trained engineers for Manx industry and the benefit of the Manx economy. With further support from Members at Tynwald next 2965 year for the phase 2 scheme, we would then be able to equally transform the construction training environment. Approval of this scheme will be a key step forward in our development of improved facilities at the Isle of Man College and crucial investment for the Island and its economic sector. Madam President, I beg to move this motion standing in my name. 2970 The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Wild.
Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 2975 The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton.
Mr Houghton: Thank you very much, Madam President. I would like to put to the Court this afternoon an opportunity for Hon. Members to give this 2980 whole project just a slight second thought; but first, what I would like to point out to all Hon. Members is I am in full support of this project going ahead. It is the way that the project, I feel… would be ideally handled in the proposal that I would like to make this afternoon, Madam President. First, just going very briefly over the Minister’s commendable remarks about moving with 2985 this, he wishes to provide additional facilities in a shed down the road. That shed is the old water treatment works on the corner of Greenfield Road and School Road in Willaston, which was the old tank-holding base for the filtration tank; of course, now empty. So it is a shed. It looks in a poor state at the moment, and of course that is what principally the Department of Education and Children wish to do at this point in time. They just purely wish to refurbish that shed and put ______477 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
2990 on a small extension – some more workshops and provision for toilets etc and staff accommodation, which is fine and laudable – right next door to the Isle of Man College. The first thing is this whole facility, this enhanced facility, is already there at the College. It is not as though they have not already got this facility. It is there and it is shoehorned into an area that… it would be welcomed… it could be moved out to an ideal site such as this. 2995 So the Department’s intentions are fine, but the Department has missed a trick here, and the trick is this: money. This is a £3½ million project for tarting up a shed and building a little extension on the side, together with all the tarmacking and finishing and landscaping and everything else that everybody would expect. This is a motor engineering building for the students to be taught and trained on the new 3000 workshops that you would expect to be built for tomorrow’s workforce, which is absolutely fine; but where they presently are, next door to there, is a construction workshop where there are students being taught, as apprentices, how to lay bricks, how to do plumbing, how to do electrical work and all of those associated building works which could easily be done by that student workforce on a day release basis. 3005 This Hon. Court, I am sure, knows how the day release arrangement works, whereby those apprentices attend the College once a week, and of course if you have got apprentice joiners who arrive on a Tuesday and let’s say a Thursday… It does not matter which days they are, but they are returning each week, on a weekly basis, in order for their tutors to bring them up with the appropriate qualifications and skills that they are required to know. 3010 In the case of bricklaying, at the College they lay a load of bricks and build up these various pyramid-shaped parts of buildings and so on, which is fine; and then, of course, at the end they knock it all down because there is nowhere else to keep going if they use ordinary cement. So they use the same bricks with a different type of mortar and knock them all down again at the end, which is fine because they are teaching them to build different pyramid… [Inaudible] piers 3015 and what have you. The same with the joinery: they teach them how to… or they used to anyway. When my brother was up there in years gone by as a tutor, and as an apprentice first, he would be teaching the students how to make wooden windows, which are things we do not see these days. 3020 Mr Gawne: Oh, yes we do!
Mr Houghton: He would show them all of that technical and skilled work. If it is done in this day, I am glad to see it. It is certainly done in Education’s maintenance workshops, because they 3025 have got some absolutely fantastic skilled joiners in the Department of Education, which now comes under the Operations Division of the DoI. So what we have is a number of skills internally on a job that is there to be done for the good of the College and for the good of those in the College. This is an engineering workshop we want, but it can be built by the construction trades, who are there themselves at the Isle of Man 3030 College. This really is a bit of a no-brainer. At the presentation that we had in relation to the huge amount of money that is to be spent on this matter, I put this proposal in simple terms to the Department of Education and it was quite clear that the Department was startled. They had not thought about it. (A Member: Really?) It had not been thought about. Really, when you think… if 3035 you look at the trades and the abilities and the sheer high level of skills that the tutors have… because all of those tutors, to the best of my knowledge – right down to a painter and decorator, who himself… there is one on my immediate left, (A Member: Hear, hear.) who was on the tutorial staff of Isle of Man College – themselves are skilled tradesmen. So this begs the simple question: why can’t the Department of Education’s skilled tradesmen, 3040 who are teaching the apprentices, do the work and the Treasury, i.e. Tynwald, vote for and
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support the actual costs – so, the material costs to be paid for, obviously out of moneys provided by Tynwald, in order to do this simple job? This is thought-provoking. It does not come up very often. We are not asking Education’s apprentices to go out building buildings all over the place; we are talking about refurbishing an 3045 old shed that will be good for a motor pool in the future. That is what we are talking about – some roof work, some window work, whitewashing some walls and building a small extension at the side – and if they are not capable of doing that, I do not know who is when they have got the sound skill base in the tutors, who themselves are former highly skilled and experienced tradesmen. 3050 Let’s just look at the money in all of this and the situation that we all have, and the huge problem all Departments are having at this current time with being resourced by the Treasury for moneys. We should be, and we are, and the Treasury Minister and everyone… It is everybody’s duty in Government to look to get the best deal wherever possible. This, as the Minister has pointed out and as I have tried to point out now at this point here, is 3055 tarting up a shed: putting a little thing… doing a bit of plastering, if you want, and what have you; painting; placing some windows; this, that and the other. It could all be done by the skills of the college staff. It would not cost £3½ million to do that – if it cost more than £½ million I would be amazed – but let’s just say, for the sake of this Court, for the saving… out of the £3½ million… and we know 3060 that there is just a little over £3 million gone here, but it is quite clear, as you will see in the background papers, this phase 1 job is £3½ million for a motor engineering shed. It is nuts, Madam President. It could not possibly cost as much as that if it was putting gold-plated enamelled panels all around the place. It is a total nonsense. But this time the Department has been caught by default because the troops up the road could do it as part of their learning and 3065 would love to be able to see that that was the bit that they built during their apprenticeship when the job is completed. I am not trying to cause issues here. What I am saying is there is a material saving of at least £2½ million or so – a saving of £2½ million or so. There has to be. In my amendment – and I will read that out to Hon. Members – it states… After the amended 3070 wording, it actually comes to state, if this is supported by Hon. Members today, that Tynwald requests the Department of Education and Children to prepare a schedule of costs for materials relating to the Isle of Man College Construction Crafts and Engineering Phase 1 Scheme, to make arrangements for this scheme, wherever possible, to be undertaken by college apprentices under the supervision of qualified tutors, to provide specifications for alternative provisions for 3075 works which can only be undertaken by specialist contractors, and report back to the January sitting of Tynwald. The point that I have put in here is there are works everywhere, there are certain works that would need to be carried out by specialist contractors, and I am thinking about… there is a bridge that needs to go over some piping, an armouring of some of the piping that belongs to 3080 the water treatment works in the area, there is tarmacking and other things. So, apart from those costs and any other unforeseen specialist contractors that I have not thought about who could be brought in on packages to do their work whenever that is required, the rest of the work could be undertaken and the Department of Education be in possession of sufficient funding to pay for the materials as and when required. 3085 If the Department opens an account – like the Department of Infrastructure’s Works Division has accounts open all over the place with suppliers – they can buy their supplies of bricks and mortar and paint and whatever else is required. They could gain all of those at a very good price from local suppliers. This is worthwhile, but it is a huge saving of money – that is the point I am trying to make 3090 here – as well as the job being done under a learning environment. This opportunity does not come up very often but it amounts to a major saving of money, and that major saving… at least £2½ million-worth of saving in this – it has to be because there is ______479 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
no, or very little, cost for labour. At a time when we need that £2½ million elsewhere, I think it would be daft not to look at this in this way. 3095 The timing: the Minister may say, ‘Oh, we need this, we need it tomorrow, we need it all looking at, we have got things planned in to do, and everything else.’ Perhaps so, but that building has lain empty now for many years, since the water treatment plant was built many years ago. It has been quite some years now that the new plant has been built and been operational, and of course the old one has lain in a poor state since that time. So a little bit 3100 longer that it may take before it comes on line before then they do the next phase, in the same way in which I am explaining that they should do this phase 1, which is the works in the College that are required when the motor pool moves out and into its new home, they can do the same there – internal works as part of the training regime. It just does not make sense in any other way, shape or form. 3105 So what this amendment says, like I have already stated, is for the Department to go away… and I am asking the Department… This is not arrogant. I fully support this and I will vote for it if the amendment fails, but I do not want the amendment to fail so what I am saying is there is… As we know, the building trade and everybody is on holiday in a week or so’s time for a fortnight, so there is nothing going to happen this side of Christmas or the other side of 3110 Christmas. So, what I am asking is that the Department go away, price this matter up over the remainder of December and the early part of the New Year and come back with an approximate vote for moneys that would be required to do those various packages that need to be done by specialist contractors and then the approximate amount of moneys they would require for the materials that are required; because this building is built. There is a building to build that is an 3115 annexed building that will be built alongside it, and that is all – and a bit of tarmac and some landscaping, and we have got other people we could find to do the landscaping, I am pretty sure. Community Services is one. I think the case is put. I would ask Hon. Members to seriously consider this. There is a massive saving here and we have not got money to waste. If my amendment fails today, then I 3120 am going to have to say to the Treasury Minister time and time again – and I would invite other Hon. Members to say to the Treasury Minister time and time again – ‘You’ve got money to throw away, mate, because you threw it away on the water treatment works.’ I do not want to do that when I think it has just been an unforeseen error that the Department have not considered this. 3125 Perhaps the Minister will say we can and we have not got insurance and all of this nonsense, when we all know this can be done by the apprentices. The building is there. It wants tarting up, wants a bit of work doing on the roof and so on and so forth, all of which can be done by the apprentices. Madam President, with that, I am very happy to put this into the minds of Hon. Members and 3130 I beg to move the amendment in my name:
To leave out all the words after ‘That Tynwald’ and add ‘requests the Department for Education and Children to prepare a schedule of costs for materials relating to the Isle of Man College Construction Crafts and Engineering – Phase 1 Scheme; to make arrangements for this Scheme, wherever possible, to be undertaken by College apprentices under the supervision of qualified tutors; to provide specifications for alternative provisions for works which can only be undertaken by specialist contractors; and to report back to the January sitting.’
Thank you.
3135 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I think that I would totally agree that we have desperately got to find a way of creating the improvements, as far as facilities for engineering, but as the former ______480 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Minister for Education I was totally opposed to this scheme because I believe that, if this 3140 development is allowed to go ahead, it will create missed opportunities. I actually feel it will be seen as a disaster because I believe that we have not got a clear policy as far as this landlocked site is concerned. I believed that, especially with the implications of the disposal of the Nunnery, these will have major implications. There are a number of operational implications as far as this site is 3145 concerned, as far as the use of the canteen and many of the other things and the destruction of legitimate and good facilities at the present time. I feel that this Court, if it wants to be responsible, really should refer this back or vote against this and tell them to come back. I appreciate that we do need to diversify the economy. We have opportunities within 3150 engineering that need to be brought about as far as training is concerned, but I believe that this will turn out to be yet another of those disasters. I find it very difficult today because I am generally in this Court on my own, over decades, about protection of old buildings and trying to reuse old buildings. But in my opinion – and why I think other amendments would fail anyway – this proposal is not about the long-term strategy 3155 and benefit to the Department and its taxpayer; this is about creating the need to feed the construction industry, and not about getting the real strategic needs for us for Education’s concern. I hope Hon. Members will consider not voting for this, because the point is – and I hope the Shirveishagh clears the point – this is a landlocked site. We now know we are going to be getting 3160 rid of the Nunnery site. We now know that we have a situation where what I wanted them to consider was actually a three-storey building which is north of the local authority houses, which would have had no effect. We have a landlocked site. We need an over-vision as far as this proposal is concerned, and all we have got again is a carbuncle of a not-well-thought-out proposal. 3165 I understand how it comes about, because there are so many pressures on executive Government – you have got the construction forum wanting this; you have got these people wanting that – but what we have got to try and do is develop strategic long-term policies. At the moment we do not have that infrastructure in the present system of Government. In my opinion, this proposal is yet another one of these carbuncle situations put onto the side, not a 3170 long-term strategic policy. Hon. Members, you might be helping to keep the pressure off us when we are getting… [Inaudible] for the 80% that the taxpayer is into the construction industry on this Island, but you are certainly doing a disservice not only to the taxpayers of the Isle of Man, but in my opinion you are doing a disservice as far as future flexibility on this site. 3175 I hope Hon. Members will consider not voting for this proposal. I am not denying there is a need for a move to get more engineering training facilities on this Island, but I am afraid the interests as far as this proposal is concerned are not the interests of strategic long-term planning for education; it is other smaller interests, and I have to say I have seen nothing in this explanatory memorandum, or when I went to the presentation, that has changed my mind… 3180 that when I was sitting there in the ministerial seat… This is wrong. It is a waste of taxpayers’ money and I hope Members will seriously consider not voting for this proposal because it will come back to haunt you. It will come back to haunt future Courts when they realise that they have to do major other things and they have got the major problems with this most important landlocked site that we cannot afford to just walk 3185 away from.
The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas.
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Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President; to the Minister for his explanatory notes, and also 3190 to the Minister for North Douglas who has proposed this amendment. (Mrs Cannell: Member.) The Member for North Douglas. I would like to second his amendment and I will now tell you why, as you would expect. The first point is the big picture, which he has made very clearly. The big picture is that learning by doing is valuable, and we have a perfect opportunity here to learn by doing: ‘Build 3195 your own college,’ as my mum put it when I was talking with her last night. The second big-picture point is that capital is tight, so if any money can be saved – and I am sure it will not end up being £2½ million or anywhere close, but if money can be saved – that is an extra pound that can be used to improve disability access (A Member: Hear, hear.) for primary schools to make the Department of Social Care happy. It is money that can be used on 3200 Ramsey Grammar’s English facility, for QEII’s learning resource centre, (A Member: Hear, hear.) for a new school or part of a new school in the south, to provide resources for third-level study and to pump prime and invest in Manx studies, to convert the Douglas Market Hall into the exciting art studio that the College is also envisaging at the moment. (Interjection) The big picture is good. 3205 Then we come to the detail, the lower-level picture. I was at a briefing and three things occurred to me there which I wanted to report to you. The first one is it was obvious that the Department had not thought of this, so giving them more time to think about it seems fair. The second point is that this is, in two ways, an ideal opportunity. First of all, the building is 3210 next-door, so it is not in any way disruptive; and the Department clearly told us at the briefing that the timetable did not matter – there was not any great need for this now. That is what we were told at the briefing. In actual fact, the third point to say about the detail is all the Members who were at the briefing, as far as I could tell, thought there were some elements of interest in this proposal that 3215 Mr Houghton, the Hon. Member for North Douglas, came up with that were interesting. Therefore, for that reason alone I am pleased to support this amendment. If it is okay, Madam President, as I do not think I have a chance to speak… I will perhaps also ask some questions of the Minister about the overall motion – whether it is amended or not – which I hope he could answer later. 3220 The first one is as the Nunnery is being sold and part of that… the education that goes on at the Nunnery is moving to this site, surely the £5 million, or whatever it is, being realised from the Nunnery can be used for this site. Therefore, why in the briefing do you talk about loan charges and that sort of thing? Money is being created in the Department to be used for this. The second point is that I wanted the Minister to tell us a bit more about the procurement 3225 and whether he, the Minister, was at all concerned that the difference between one bidder and the others seemed quite large, which some people would say was remarkable, especially given that the tender price quality weighting ratio is 80:20. I noticed from the Ballakermeen post-16 dining extension scheme, this was also the case – a different bidder was also much cheaper, or the quality was assessed as much higher – which was probably to do with cheapness, given the 3230 80:20 ratio – than the other bidders. So I wonder whether that in any way concerned him. They are my two questions I would like answered as well, Minister.
The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Braidwood.
3235 Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Madam President. I will not be supporting the amendment standing in the name of the Hon. Member for North Douglas, Mr Houghton. Let us look, first of all… It is competitive tendering. That is what it has come down to. We are trying to get the best value for our money.
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3240 Mr Houghton mentions it could be possibly done for £½ million using apprentices. Apprentices are only there one day a week, and it depends if you are in your first year, your second year, third year, or whatever. What length of time are we talking for the completion of this project? (Interjection by Mrs Cannell) Here, it is seven months, from 6th January 2014 to completion by 15th August 2014. We will probably have to times that by five or six, so we are 3245 going into three and a half years, and I think we would be giving a disservice to those students who want to go into engineering, who want to go into motor vehicle repair. The Minister has already gone through what this will develop into: increasing the links of the 14 to 16… for those young people who want to go into the modern engineering and motor vehicle facilities. The Hon. Member for West Douglas talks about utilising the money from the Nunnery. We 3250 have not sold it yet. (Mr Downie: No, true.) We have given the Manx Educational Foundation (MEF) months to come forward with the money; but they might not be able to, (A Member: No.) so the money will not be there. I can just see first-year apprentices building this at Greenfield Road. We might have to knock it down and then we will have to be using proper cement. 3255 I am sorry – I can understand where Mr Houghton is going from, where you would see the apprentices working, but they have to get a bit of expertise first before they can actually start constructing proper facilities. With this facility, and when the engineering moves from the Greenfield… the College, then we can have better facilities there for the bricklayers, for the plasterers, for the electricians, whatever, to increase that for our construction industry. So I can 3260 see where Mr Houghton would like… In a utopian society, yes, we might be able to achieve this; but unfortunately, at the present time, we cannot and I think we have to go along with the motion standing in the Minister’s name.
The President: The Hon. Member for Malew and Santon, Mr Cregeen. 3265 Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Madam President. As the Hon. Member for Douglas North said, I actually used to work at the Isle of Man College. A fantastic idea? Yes. Will it work? Definitely not. As a lecturer, while I was up there… 21 hours a week is what a lecturer spends in front of his 3270 students. That also includes doing theory work.
Mr Houghton: What else is he doing for the rest of his time?
Mr Cregeen: Preparation. That is the time in front of his students. (Interjections) You have 3275 also got a situation of whose is the apprentice? The apprentice is indentured to the company, so what you are actually doing is you are going to say: ‘Major building company, you take on an apprentice; and by the way, we are going to start using your apprentice (Interjection) to do you out of work.’ So you have got issues there. (Interjection) You have got liability issues. What happens if the apprentice gets injured on the College site, carrying out a Government capital 3280 scheme?
Mr Houghton: On a shed! (Laughter)
Mr Cregeen: It does not matter if you think it is a shed or not. If it was your son and they got 3285 injured doing work on a scheme like that and they were not properly insured... The other issue that you have got is that you have a schedule of works. What is going to happen with the schedule of works? As the Member of Council said, how long is this going to take? Three years? Four years? The other issue you have got is that students at the College have a syllabus to carry out, so 3290 they have certain amounts of work that they have to carry out, which an assessor comes over to the Isle of Man, or our own people look at, to assess where his work is up to so he can finish his ______483 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
trade. This is just not workable. You would be there forever and a day, waiting for this building to be finished. You also have, with the other trades that would be coming in from the private sector... What 3295 would happen on liability there, if somebody had not finished on time? Penalty clauses. There are all sorts of issues that you would be coming up against. I do not know how many lecturers the Hon. Member thinks are up at the Isle of Man College to supervise these apprentices. I know during my time up there you were probably looking at possibly two per trade (Interjection) to supervise how many apprentices. 3300 I know when I have had apprentices who worked for me, to give them a proper training you have to spend a fair amount of time showing them what to do, then supervising the work they have got. If you are looking at an apprentice, you are looking at them possibly in their final year to be at a standard where you would allow them to work on their own. It is an idea to try and save money. It would never work. The companies out there, the 3305 building trade out there… This would send the wrong message to them because they will be thinking, ‘Hang on, if we start this at the Department of Education and Children, what happens with the next Government job? Are we paying for apprentices to actually do us out of work?’ It is a concern. I will not be supporting it, and it is not because I am the Minister of the Department of Community, Culture and Leisure; it is because from my experience in the trade 3310 and at the Isle of Man College, as much as I tried up there to see if we could get apprentices doing small jobs up there, it does not work.
The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Downie.
3315 Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President. As the person who had the task of being the Minister for Trade and Industry in 2004, I can tell you, Hon. Members, that this facility is very much overdue, and there is no doubt in my mind that we are desperately short of facilities to train people, especially for aerospace and allied engineering. 3320 You may be interested to know that on some recent visits to some of these businesses, some of them have got order books full for the next 10 years. We are contracted to make undercarriage parts for Airbus. There are about 40 new airbuses a month coming off the production line. One American company in particular have doubled their size in recent years. They are landlocked now; they cannot provide any more internally or expand. 3325 We are seeing a really healthy growth in the engineering-aerospace cluster. In an ideal situation you would go to one of these factories that might have a bit of room and ask to see if you could put a big training facility on the back; but unfortunately, we just have not got the space available and this is why this useful idea of reusing an old building up at the Water Authority is actually very worthwhile pursuing. It is close to the existing College, you can use the 3330 facilities there, they can go across and have their meals and so on and they can get involved in other areas when they are not dealing with engineering or motor vehicles or other things associated. I think the amendment that has been put forward by my hon. colleague for North Douglas, Mr Houghton, is actually very laudable, but not in this context. The main reason for this is 3335 because this particular site in Glencrutchery Road is a very difficult site. Part of it, at one time – some of us who are familiar with this area – was an old tip. So it is very important that whatever we do up there is properly investigated and there is proper liability in place. Really, I think the idea about the apprentices should be looked at but in the right sort of context where you can have a fairly basic operation and one where you are not using a site 3340 which is constrained by so many other issues. If Hon. Members will turn to the second page of the report, it says that we are hoping, if this is approved today, to get people actually on site by 6th January 2014. I do not need to remind Hon. Members what the state of the construction industry is at the present time. There are ______484 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
people who are depending on our decisions today… whether or not they have adequate 3345 resources to feed their families over this winter, and we should be reminded of that, Hon. Members. I think we should get on and get this work done. It is not just a case of a further development of a shed. Anybody who has been around there will see that that is a very well put-together building, a very prominent building, but it sits in the middle of a very difficult site and there have 3350 to be the proper technical applications applied to that for all this to work. I think, when you look at what we are actually being asked to pay over the next few years and what we are actually getting, it is really good value for money, and this reflects the overall situation in the construction industry: they are desperate for work. In this situation, Hon. Members, I think you should vote with the motion that is down on the paper and let's get on 3355 with the job and let’s give some people a future in the New Year, not only for our engineering apprentices but people who are out there in the construction industry desperate for work. Thank you, Madam President.
The President: The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Skelly. 3360 Mr Skelly: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. First of all, I would just like to say I applaud the Minister and his Department for bringing this motion forward. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I think it shows strategic vision: it is thinking of the future, it is thinking about jobs and it is thinking about our economy. 3365 More importantly for me, the Department recognises the importance of vocational training. If we think where we were over a year ago, talking about academics and how difficult it is for students to get jobs, and here we are creating an opportunity to train our young people in two key industries for the Isle of Man. That, I think, is strategic vision and I do applaud the Department for that. 3370 I know the Department has also been working very closely with Economic Development and they have been working very closely with the industry, so it is actually showing joined-up thinking to bring this forward; and it is not too far away from the ICT proposal that we just had last month, so it is promoting opportunities for our young people. I agree with what Mr Houghton says, and others – £3 million is a vast sum of money and we 3375 do need to question it – but this is about investing in our young people and investing in jobs for the future. These two industries are actually very important industries for the Isle of Man, but very contrasting industries. Engineering has been flourishing on the Isle of Man for many years – probably 60 years, I think, in the making – but this will actually provide training in many different 3380 subsectors within the engineering trade. The opportunities, as Mr Downie has just stated, in engineering are fantastic and this facility will provide that training for them. Engineering, I think, is pretty much the unsung hero of the economy, I hear a lot of them say, because it is a strong linchpin to our economy. It provides diversification and real resilience. One thing they do tell you, if you go around the engineering firms: skills shortage. That is the big 3385 problem they have. They have a serious skills shortage, and at the moment what are we having to do? We have to import that skill. So if we want to reduce the need to import that skill, we need to provide the training facilities for our young people to go into those jobs. Construction… I think Mr Downie also touched on that: what a perilous state the construction trade is in and this here is, once again, an opportunity. It will be a major boost to the economy 3390 and we all understand how much construction is a driver for the local economy. We talk about the multiplier effect: for every pound you spend in the local economy, and in particular the construction trade, that goes a long way round this Island. Mr Braidwood, Member of Council and Treasury, highlighted that there was a competitive tender process that went through. A large company won that tender, a large major employer on 3395 this Island – also an employer who employs apprentices year in, year out. ______485 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Mr Quirk: Not many, though.
Mr Skelly: So that is the state of that particular industry. Vote against this and you will see even less jobs available for the future. 3400 One other point is that they are not doing as many apprenticeships and they have been laying people off in the industry for quite a number of years. A lot of it is to do with the transition. We, as Government, can no longer afford to support this industry to the level that we have; however, we still must have capital projects at a reasonable level which do show value, and in this particular case I think it is value for the future. (Interjection by Mr Houghton) I do 3405 believe this, and in fact what is very important is that whilst this might be a major big employer on the Island, they are also a major source of employment for subcontractors, who often get overlooked. So it is about maintaining the skill base, I believe, and providing opportunities for those apprentices going through the programme. For me, the other point that was picked up, I think, in the presentation by the Minister is the 3410 consolidation of the campus at the College. This actually presents potential future opportunities and we have to look at what those opportunities are for our young people. I support the vocational opportunities for this and it will actually be endorsing what I think will be a sustainable and resilient economy of the future. Gura mie eu. 3415 The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Wild.
Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. My hon. colleague for Douglas North, Mr Houghton, raises an interesting proposal, which is 3420 to be commended. However, I think his contention that the construction should be undertaken by college apprentices is not perhaps a realistic and practical proposal. The college lecturers and technicians are just that. These individuals are not engaged by the Department of Education and Children as construction managers. These educational colleagues would have difficulty in engaging with the other trades and professionals as necessary to 3425 undertake (Interjection by Mr Houghton) the works. Likewise, apprentices are necessarily committed to their own employers, particularly during year 2, when these individuals do gain on-the-job experience with suitable supervision by the employer. This is a complex project with a very difficult site constraint, (Interjection) health and safety – 3430 dare I say it – a tight programme and a large proportion of work undertaken by specialist subcontractors; and beyond the remit of the college trade apprentices, anyway. Even if it was possible, it may end up being a more expensive solution. The small cost benefit of free apprentices’ involvement could be outweighed by the rest of the works being at a higher cost, as the Department has an extremely competitive quote from Auldyn which has included a 3435 very competitive subcontractor pricing as part of that established supplies chain. This project, on the proposed model, may take longer. If the Department does not get approval from Tynwald to progress, the programme could be delayed by at least 12 months, and therefore the proposed use of the Hills Meadow facility from September 2014 for precision engineering could not happen, putting that separate industry initiative, working with the 3440 Department of Economic Development, into jeopardy. There is an established construction industry on the Island and our own Government construction resource for smaller schemes works within the Department of Infrastructure. This is already threatened by the economic conditions at the present time and needs Government support. This initiative is what should be used to execute projects and indeed sustain the 3445 construction industry and industry apprenticeships, without which there would be no requirement for training.
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If the College has the competence and resources required to be satisfied under building regulations and the appetite to consider such a model, you would do a small refurbishment scheme up at the College, perhaps in conjunction with the DoI works education team, not a 3450 scheme such as this. It was mentioned last Friday that it may be possible for a small part of the phase 2 scheme to be undertaken by the College direct, or other potential means of involving the college apprentices to be explored as we consider the procurement of phase 2. Thank you.
3455 The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk.
Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. First of all, if I could take it back a little bit regarding the building up at this scheme. Yes, it is a campus site. I agree with some of my colleagues here too on the Onchan back bench, that really, 3460 if it is a campus site, what is the long-term plan for the whole of the site? We have got the College and the Water Authority, we have also got the land across the road: what are we doing with that? I would like to have seen the Department itself looking at its portfolio to see where we are going to be in the next few years, planning for future, like we all want to be. With reference to the breakdown of costs, I would like some assurances – before I make my 3465 decision – from the Minister regarding when Treasury looked at some of the issues regarding the guarantee bond, which is £6,000, and insurance, which is £6,000. I know that is not a lot of money, but there is £12,000 there. There are ways, when there are Government schemes, we can do this sort of thing. The other issue I have got on the particular breakdown of the cost is the £16,120 which is 3470 purely the building regulation fees. It is something we need to do… The majority of the regulation is done in house by central Government. There is only Onchan left and there is only Douglas Corporation, and all I see is them making money off the back of the taxpayer. Sorry about that, but they are. There was a will – to my good friend John Shimmin, wherever he is listening – to make it that 3475 this particular arm was to be amalgamated together. It is my opportunity now to say that he has failed to do two bits of it. We should have done the whole lot and all those regulations and fees should be done in house. Whether it is a Government project, or maybe even a local authority project, those fees should be nil and the money should be spent everywhere else – and money is tight. 3480 I would also like to see from the Minister too regarding the furniture, fixtures and equipment – £163,000 on phase 1; £112,000 on phase 2, which totals nearly £300,000 – that that surety he can give to me tonight in this Court, or today, is used on the Island, is sourced on the Island and is through contractors or subcontractors who use local suppliers. As my colleague from the south has just said now, if the pound is spent on the Island it does go around and I want to see 3485 that happen – we all want to see that happen – but we need the guarantees from the Minister, no matter which Minister it is. I see the point in actually putting the scheme together. The other issues that I do have, regarding the Union Mills site, the old engineering site, which is in a sorry state of affairs… and I disagree with my colleague from North Douglas, Mr Henderson – I do not think it is an actual shed; it is more than a shed. 3490 Mr Henderson: I did not say anything!
Several Members: Houghton.
3495 Mr Houghton: I am saying it.
Mr Quirk: I am sorry, Mr Houghton.
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The President: Hon. Member, would you like to address the Chair ? 3500 Mr Quirk: Sorry, Madam President. The Members are being disruptive from North Douglas –
The President: You are addressing… across the Court.
3505 Mr Corkish: Hear, hear.
Mr Quirk: – encouraged by the Member from Malew. There is an opportunity there. I would like, if I may, to ask the Minister if these buildings are going into the Strategic Asset Management Unit to be sold. The site that is down at Hills 3510 Meadow – there is a particular site down there which is under-utilised now. I do not know what actually does happen in there now. What are the future plans for that? Which brings me back to the issue of where is that strategic plan for Education? There is a requirement to endorse the trades on the Island, which brings me back to where we used to have, some years ago… and it was a great little scheme where the bigger 3515 companies… and there are the bigger companies in the Isle of Man that can only do certain schemes up to a certain value, so why aren’t we now, through Economic Development, saying to those bigger companies, ‘Unless you are using a number of apprentices on your scheme, you won’t be doing the work for Government’? I wanted to see that, and I do not mind putting that out there; and I want to see the subcontractors using those apprentices as well, if they are 3520 nominee subcontractors to the major contractor. It is our money: we can lay down the conditions, and if they do not like it they do not have to tender for it. I would also like to seek an assurance – although Mr Braidwood has already spoken – that there was valued engineering work done on this scheme through Treasury; but maybe Mr Teare, who is the Treasury Minister, could say and give assurance that was done as well. 3525 I do have sympathy with the mover of the amendment, the Member for North Douglas, Mr Houghton; and I welcome the little indication too that, on scheme 2 or phase 2 of the project, it is going to be looked at. It should have been looked at for all the schemes before it even started. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) The Member is quite right. There are concerns. Some of these trainees or apprentices can do certain works in there, if 3530 they are in there… because they are standard-based training now – not the old apprentices where they were first, second, third-year apprentices and then final ones. They are standard- based training, and if they do not hit the target there is nothing stopping the Department from saying… or whether the contract is written… It has probably got wet ink on it now, but until it has been approved by this particular Court here today, it is not a given. But we could say, ‘I am 3535 sorry, but there should be more apprentices taken on the site,’ because they need the experience on the bigger jobs. There are not many bigger jobs coming round at the minute (Interjections by Mrs Cannell and another Member) on that, and that is my belief. I do not know whether it is a landlocked site. I would have liked to have seen – and it is only my little personal preference, as a Willaston lad – that there should have been a footpath that 3540 runs from the bottom of Tynwald Road right through the site because, God love them, the people I know there have to walk up to Tynwald Road, up to the top, and come back round again, just to get towards the Grandstand. It is certainly wrong. It was not thought out in planning terms, but I do not know who the Member or the Chairman is for Planning. Oh, he is across the Chamber there now, but maybe he missed that one. (Interjections) Do it. (Interjection) 3545 So the jury is still out with me. I do have sympathy with the Minister who is moving this. There could have been some better detail. I appreciate it is not a shed. I appreciate that totally, but there is still a mechanism there where we can engage with some of the apprentices themselves, the College itself; and we definitely need to say, before even phase 2 comes about, before it comes to this Court, the overall plan for the other side of the road… I will need to see 3550 that. ______488 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: The Hon. Member for Castletown, Mr Ronan.
Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. Firstly, before I start on the main motion, I would just like to touch on Mr Houghton's 3555 amendment. To me, to be honest with you, it is simply not workable. I will tell you why: I am still in the trade. There are a few Members here who also have served their time in and around the Isle of Man. At the end of the day, what you are proposing, I suppose, in another world is a great idea, but the fact of the matter is it is just not workable. The Member for Malew and Santon mentioned about liabilities and things. (Interjection) No, I 3560 would like to – (Interjection) He has raised a point, but it is not the only point. You would be asking boys and girls basically to build a modern facility as ‘a foreigner’, as we (Interjection) used to call it. At the end of the day, we would still be doing this job in five years, and to say that they are building a shed, with all the technology… It comes from the ground up, Mr Houghton. At the end 3565 of the day, what you are saying, I honestly believe… I can get where you are coming from, but what you are saying is basically undermining the industry. There are some good apprentices out there. I would like to think I was a good apprentice, I am sure the Member for Malew and Santon was a good apprentice; but at the age of 16 and 17 – apologies (Interjection) – we could not have built a modern facility like this, no chance. 3570 Mr Houghton: It should be purpose built.
Mr Ronan: It is very important that we keep investing in our education facilities new and old, even in difficult times. The engineering and construction industries, along with others, are ever- 3575 evolving and it is vital that we have the best training and infrastructure to keep our industries up to speed. I am also very pleased to see that this facility is investing in better… and more focus on new technologies, such as CAD, which is computer animated drawing facilities. This, as we all know, is an area in all industries where they are moving to and I am pleased to see that there is major 3580 focus on this. On page two of the document being distributed, it says ‘the current economic situation on the Island more than ever before has focused Government’s mind on the importance of strong home-grown construction and engineering sectors. It is essential that suitable training facilities are provided to support these industries and bring through the next generation of engineers and 3585 tradesmen, widening the vocational choices to complement, or offer an alternative to the more conventional academic examination routes to 14s and 16s and beyond.’ As I said before, I served my time as a joiner at the College of Further Education and I like to think it did me well. I can remember at that time – and before and since then – in the construction industry and engineering industries in the Isle of Man we had to import the 3590 expertise. At the end of the day, we must never go back to those days; and facilities like this, which are largely industry led – it is industry actually saying, ‘We need these facilities’ – will hopefully ensure that we do not. I will be honest with you – I am a little bit surprised today at the negativity, because this should be a good-news story. I would like to think it would be. 3595 The Member for Onchan said about a strategic long-term vision. He also mentioned about the construction forum and their lobbying. At the end of the day, they are acting on behalf of the construction industry, and I think what is important is it is not just the larger companies that will benefit from this development; there are subcontractors, there are suppliers, and I would like to think the percentage spend… According to Mr Braidwood before, the process with 3600 Treasury is rigorous, and I have seen this in DoI: it is rigorous. In my time, with my building company, I did not come across anything like this, so do not be fooled that it is just Government money getting chucked away, because it is not. ______489 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
I think it is important that we help the construction industry, but it is more important than helping the construction industry, as I see it. It is a long-term vision. You mentioned before, 3605 Mr Karran, that this is not a long-term vision. Well, it is. It may not be perfect, (Interjection) but I personally think this is a great step forward for the long-term sustainability of these home- grown industries – the ones we need to sustain, the ones we control, which… we are not in the control of the outside world. Madam President, I support the motion in the Minister for Education's name. 3610 The President: The Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle.
Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. I will be fairly brief and try not to repeat what has already been said. 3615 No surprise, I stand to support the motion. Do we need it? Yes. The proposals given to Members are very clear in the document that we have got here. Wearing my DED hat, the Island is in desperate need of engineers. Our engineering manufacturing sector is a growing success and we have a serious skills shortage. I feel this is a good example of one of those rarefied moments of joined-up Government, 3620 where the Department of Education and Children have realised that there is a shortage of skills on the Isle of Man and have come up with proposals to increase the numbers of training of our young people to provide the skills on Island rather than having to issue Work Permits to allow those skills to be brought to the Island. I agree with the Member of Council, Mr Downie. I thought Minister Cregeen’s comments 3625 were good; and my Department Members, Mr Skelly, Mr Ronan and Mr Wild. I felt for once the construction fees seemed fairly reasonable. However, whilst I cannot support Mr Houghton's proposal for all the reasons given by the previous speakers, where I have sympathy with him – and I suppose it is that old chestnut of mine that I am always not too happy with – is the amount of money spent on professional fees: £392,772 for the architects’ fees and 3630 structural engineers’ fees. Don't we employ our own architects? Were they asked to bid? Were these proposals put out to tender? Obviously the building was, but were the professional fees put out to tender? It just seems to be that the same architect’s name appears time and time again. I am sure my good friend, Member of Council, Mr Braidwood, would have advised that the 3635 15% – which is more than… we are normally in 10% to 12% – is value for money, but he has already stood up and given his comment. I am just thinking that maybe their hourly rate… If anyone complains about MHKs’ or MLCs’ wages again, they might feel that we are value for money compared with the going concern. However, I do feel that the concept and the project are very good. I am delighted to support 3640 it and I commend the Minister for Education and Children for coming up with a solution to the Island’s industry needs.
The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Coleman.
3645 Mr Coleman: Thank you, Madam President. For those who attended the briefing session on this proposal, you might remember that I actually said that I felt this was one of the most worthwhile projects that I had been exposed to since I came into this worthy Court. I will not use an awful lot of verbiage on you, because this has been beaten to death with a 3650 truncheon. I will do it by bullet point. Firstly – I will do it from the ground up – the site. The site is a problematic site because of the number of existing mains that run across it, through it and under it. To release that land to a normal development would be incredibly problematic for the developer. With the exception of
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the use on that site of the buildings which are already there, that land is no longer deemed to be 3655 sterile for a number of years, which it well could be. That is the first point on the site. The second point on the site is: who owns the site? The Water and Sewerage Authority. Actually, the Water and Sewerage Authority’s sinking fund owns the site, so any income released from Education for the sale of the site is going to go straight in to the sinking fund in the Water and Sewerage Authority. 3660 Thirdly, the proposed facility will provide vital education resources for two of the major parts of the hoped-for developments on the Island and also developments which are already here, namely the engineering and construction industries. Employers can look to having a facility where their staff can go and be trained and well qualified. We also have the issue of potential manufacturers coming to the Island, looking, and saying, ‘Well, that is a great facility: we know 3665 that we are going to be able to get work done.’ It is going to be a very complex facility. There is a materials laboratory, there is an electronics laboratory, there is CAD – computer-aided design – and CAM, which actually stands for computer-aided manufacturing, not machinery. So we have the prospect of people coming to the Island, but we do not have a facility here 3670 where we are just going to be teaching, based upon research elsewhere. As I said, you have a research facility in the materials laboratory and a research capability within the electronics lab, such that we can be keeping up with the requirements of an ever-increasing engineering industry. We are now having people on the Island manufacturing steel which will work at ridiculously 3675 low temperatures and will not fail. These are not the only things that are going to be coming up in the future. We need to be able to respond by research and by proving that we can provide the skills necessary to fulfil these new future requirements. I actually also expressed some sympathy for Mr Houghton’s motion at the briefing session. I think I phrased it that I do not necessarily think it could be the whole project; but rather, in the 3680 future for the instructors there, looking for somewhere to build a wall or put a tap in, something could be allocated. I am relieved to hear that in the second phase that may be coming. (Interjection by Mr Houghton) Obviously, the location fills all the boxes, doesn’t it: it is just so close to the rest of the academic campus that it could not be better, in my view. 3685 I will not be supporting the amendment. I will be supporting the motion on the paper. Thank you.
The President: The Minister to reply.
3690 The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. Can I start off by first of all thanking my seconder and departmental Member, Mr Wild; and then also repeat what quite a few Hon. Members have said this afternoon. We have sympathy with the Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. We know where he is coming from; we know what he is thinking of. That said, it is impossible in phase 1, because the tender has gone out, it has been 3695 done and dusted; but that is why we can do it in phase 2, because we have not got to that stage yet.
Mr Houghton: Thank you for telling the truth.
3700 The Minister: You heard from the Hon. Members, Mr Cregeen and Mr Ronan, who have been in the trade, in the business before, that it is exceptionally hard to do, to take apprentices onto a site and to manage them. (Interjection) You will have, in the main contract, if this goes through today… Auldyn Construction have their own apprentices and the subcontractors on the electrical side also have apprentices, and 3705 hopefully the mechanical side of it as well – we are not too sure about them yet, but certainly ______491 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
there will be apprentices. They are still, some of those apprentices, going through the College as well. You cannot take a first-year college apprentice out and put them on site. It is not possible. They do not know enough and it will hold the job up far longer than is possible. The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas, said that in the briefing I said time was not 3710 critical. Time is very critical in this – and I think he must have misheard me – because if this goes ahead – hopefully, we will get the vote today – we have to be finished by August so we can get all the machinery out and up to the College for them to start using it for the September term. Also, we need to get the machinery in down at Hills Meadow to start the engineering down there for the engineering companies. We have got a scheme to run two-year apprenticeships 3715 there and produce 36 apprentices a year. We need to be in there by September and get that started, so it is very much time critical. Madam President, a lot of the questions that were asked have been answered either by Mr Wild, Mr Braidwood, Mr Coleman, Mr Ronan or Mr Cregeen. As I said, we do have sympathy with Mr Houghton and where he is going, and I am happy to 3720 talk to him before phase 2 comes along – and every other Member, of course. I have to come back and criticise… It is not a shed or a hut. It is in your constituency, this.
Mr Houghton: It is a shed in my constituency.
3725 The Minister: It is not, John. (Interjection by Mr Quirk) You do not want us to go out there and just whitewash it, which is what you said as well.
Mr Houghton: It is a motor pool.
3730 The Minister: You do not want it looking like that.
Mrs Cannell: Point of order, Madam President. They ought to be directing their speech through you.
3735 Several Members: Hear, hear.
The Minister: We are not tarting up a hut or a shed, or whatever it is. It is a workplace. It is a place to train people and it has got to be done properly. (Interjection by Mr Henderson) It is not gold-plated. 3740 A Member: Men in sheds.
The Minister: There has been nothing exaggerated in what we put in there. It is there for a purpose. It is definitely not gold-plated. 3745 He said we could go away and approximately price up, and then come back. That would never be acceptable, to approximately price up and come back and say, ‘Actually, we could do it for that, maybe, we think.’ It is not possible. That said, I take on board, in all good faith, what you said in the first place.
3750 The President: Hon. Member, would you address the Chair, please?
The Minister: Sorry, Madam President.
A Member: Quite right. 3755 The Minister: I also take on board the comments from the Hon. Member from Onchan, Mr Karran, about no clear policy for the whole of the site. We are working up, in Education at ______492 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
the moment, long-term plans. I think Mr Quirk, the other Member for Onchan, also brought that up, as did one or two others. We cannot do that on the back of a fag packet. It takes time and a 3760 lot of energy to be put into that. We have got other things to do at the moment as well. It will not turn out to be a disaster – definitely not, Mr Karran. This is about education and training. It is not going to be a disaster, just because… It is actually quite a quick scheme, yes, if we started in January and finished in August. It will be done properly; it has to be done properly. (Interjection) 3765 Mr Thomas said he wanted to know about the big picture. A few Members said that, and as I said, eventually we will come back with a plan for the whole of the Department – what we plan for the future – but that will take time. He had three points which he brought up: this has never been done – and that is because it cannot be done, not in what was being asked by Mr Houghton; the timetable is essential – and I 3770 have already made that point; he agreed with Mr Houghton. Mr Braidwood picked up the point that Mr Thomas made about the Nunnery money. If that is sold – whether it be to MEF or whether it goes onto the private market – that does not come to us; that goes to Treasury. We, like every other Department, have to go to Treasury for our money. 3775 The procurement figures – again, they are done through Treasury. All those figures are done through Treasury with our Department and we are the same as any other Department: we have to go through them, like everybody else. I thank Mr Braidwood for his support; Mr Cregeen again. Mr Downie, ‘the facility is well overdue’ – I thank him for that and his support. 3780 Mr Skelly applauds the DEC for strategic vision. It is not just ours; it is working with the Department of Economic Development. There has been a lot of work going into all of this because it has a knock-on effect as to why we are doing this and what else is involved in the chain. Mr Quirk, the long-term plan – as I said, as and when we have got it, everybody else will have 3785 it. The costs have been through Treasury. The building regulations, the cost of that, again through Treasury. Where possible, all the moneys will be spent on the Island. We always do, as does every other Department, Madam President. Where possible, whatever can be spent on the Island stays on the Island. The Union Mills site I presume will go back to SAMU for disposal through them. The apprentices, I have explained. The contractors will have apprentices on site. 3790 Richard Ronan said that he would support this and he saw the long-term vision. I thank him for that. Mr Quayle said, ‘Do we need it?’ and somebody else said yes, we do. They are quite right, we absolutely do. Again, he had sympathy for Mr Houghton, as a lot of us did, and commended the DEC. 3795 Mr Coleman… his explanations of a lot of the issues involved here: the potential manufacturers coming to the Island, seeing what we have got here and the training purposes. Again, I take on board the comments that were made by Mr Houghton and one or two others, but at the end of the day this is a very essential scheme that we and DED think should go ahead and is best for the Isle of Man. 3800 I beg to move, Madam President.
The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 5 on your Order Papers, and to that we have an amendment in the name of the Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. I put to you first that the amendment in the name of the Hon. Member, Mr Houghton, be 3805 agreed. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The noes have it.
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A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 5, Noes 18
FOR AGAINST Mr Quirk Mr Hall Mr Houghton Mr Karran Mr Henderson Mr Ronan Mrs Cannell Mr Crookall Mr Thomas Mr Anderson Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Teare Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mrs Beecroft Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne The Speaker
The Speaker: Madam President, 5 votes for, 18 against.
In the Council – Ayes 0, Noes 8
FOR AGAINST None Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman
The President: In the Council, no votes for and 8 against. The amendment therefore fails to carry. 3810 I now put to you the motion as printed on your Order Papers. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 21, Noes 2
FOR AGAINST Mr Quirk Mr Karran Mr Hall Mrs Beecroft Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Teare Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton
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Mr Henderson Mrs Cannell Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Thomas Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne The Speaker
The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 21 for and 2 against.
In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Corkish None Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman
3815 The President: In the Council, 8 votes for and no votes against. The motion therefore carries.
6. Economic Policy Review Committee: Open Skies – First Report and recommendations – Debate commenced
The Chairman of the Economic Committee (Mr Singer) to move:
That the First Report of the Economic Committee 2013-14 [PP No 0132/13] be received and that the following recommendations be approved – (1) We do not recommend any immediate change in the current policy of maintaining ‘Open Skies’ access to routes to and from the Isle of Man. (2) We recommend that free access to air routes to and from the Isle of Man be subject to regular review by the Isle of Man Government. (3) We recommend that the Government: (a) Prepare a contingency plan to maintain a licensing regime, whether a light touch regime or otherwise, against the day when commercial realities demand this; (b) Consider amending the charging system at Ronaldsway to allow ‘Open Skies’ and competition to continue, but to safeguard the position of particular routes and flight timings; and (c) Investigate the possibility of establishing a franchise-based airline which could be operated by companies for the Island’s Government using leased aircraft and which would allow the Island’s Government to buy landing slots. (4) We recommend no change in the current responsibilities of the Department of Infrastructure and Department of Economic Development, but that the two Departments should ensure that there is proper co-ordination between tourism development and the administration of air routes.
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The President: We turn to Item 6. I call on the Chairman of the Economic Committee, Mr Singer, to move.
The Chairman of the Economic Policy Review Committee (Mr Singer): Thank you, Madam 3820 President. First of all, I would like to take the opportunity of thanking our Clerk, Roger Phillips, for putting together this comprehensive Report, which contains all the background information from previous reports into the Open Skies policy, giving an insight into circumstances which prevail and the understanding of why previous committees came to their recommendations. 3825 This information will, I hope, help Hon. Members understand why and how we came to our conclusions and recommendations. The oral and written evidence received by the Committee was clearly divided between the pro Open Skies views of the Department of Economic Development, Department of Infrastructure and the larger airlines, who are quite adamant that the present policy should 3830 remain, and the views of Citywing, private individuals and TravelWatch, who felt that the only way to safeguard and ensure air routes off the Island was for some form of licensing to be in place, whether strict or light touch. The difficulty for the Committee was that throughout the whole of our deliberations and up to date, and what is still continuing is that the situation has been and is continually changing. 3835 Shortly after the commencement of our deliberations, and after we had interviewed the airlines in public, there were dramatic changes to the services announced by the two major airlines serving the Island routes – Flybe and British Airways. Specifically, these changes would affect two of our London lifeline routes, namely Flybe services to Gatwick, which would be terminated in March 2014; and British Airways’ route to London City, which would be reduced from 3840 September 2013 from three flights a day to one flight a day, late morning. These decisions mean that the situation at present is that, from April 2014, there will be no early-morning flight from here to London City and no late return flights, as the expected positive announcement from BA on the London City route has been delayed. It also means that from next March, despite easyJet's announcement of a second daily Gatwick flight, there will be no 3845 airline as yet offering an early-morning flight to London from the Island – and I say ‘as yet’. Providing such a reliable service is made extremely difficult if the airline is not based on the Island, especially in inclement weather. There is now a further critical decision by Flybe to close their Island engineering operation and no longer employ Island-based staff, resulting in many redundancies. 3850 The Committee realise that irrespective of whether these London or any other routes were licensed or not our Government would have had no influence or involvement in what were commercial decisions. In fact, it could be argued that if Flybe had been licensed on the Gatwick route, easyJet may not have been inclined to service that route (A Member: Hear, hear.) and there would be no flights to Gatwick after next March when Flybe withdraw. (A Member: 3855 Exactly.) The crunch point is that we recognise there is little that our Government can do if an airline is determined to withdraw its aircraft from any of the Isle of Man routes, whether they are licensed or not. The problem is twofold: the market is not expanding to encourage the formation of new airlines and generally there are too many seats available and not enough passengers to fill them; 3860 and secondly, circumstances have changed in that a few years ago when a company gave up a route there was a regional airline willing to have a go, and now there has been a great reduction in regional airlines left to step into the gap. Many of the retrospective views expressed recently in public are not helpful when quotes are made by persons who look at the past through rose-tinted glasses. (Two Members: Hear, hear.) 3865 Specifically, I am pointing to the performance of Manx Airlines. (A Member: Absolutely.)
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A lot of the evidence we received indicated that there was a need to protect our lifeline routes – namely London City, Gatwick, Liverpool and Manchester – and also to protect the health contract, which takes 13,000 passengers annually to the UK via Liverpool. The Steam Packet Company indicated in written evidence that since easyJet had commenced 3870 the Liverpool route they had lost 30,000 passengers annually; however, they declined to give oral evidence. Citywing and other correspondents implied that since easyJet had commenced flying from Liverpool, and to a lesser extent from Gatwick, the smaller regional airports, such as Leeds and Oxford, had lost passengers who would rather travel by road or train to Manchester and 3875 Liverpool for cheaper airline fares, and that these minor routes were no longer viable and services had ceased. Licensing would have been unlikely to have retained these routes. So the conclusions the Committee have come to, and which are in the recommendations, are that at the present time, and under the changing circumstances – continuing changing circumstances – there would be no advantage at this time in licensing any of the lifeline routes. 3880 The airlines themselves are not seeing a strict licensing regime as an incentive. In fact, licensed or not, their decisions are made upon (a) their ability to achieve maximum loading and (b) their commercial decisions rely more on available opportunities than the costs and charges imposed on them in the UK, and these are more relevant to their decisions as to where to fly to, from and when. They can close down any Isle of Man route at the drop of a hat, whether 3885 licensed or not, as we witnessed last week with the abandoning by Flybe of four Island summer routes, and maybe there is more to come. The problem the Government has is to find regional airlines and then convince them to provide services here which can be profitable. The comments I have just made are reflected in our recommendations, which cannot be more specific because of the fluidity in the present 3890 conditions. It may well be appropriate for the Department of Infrastructure to consider offering a light touch licensing system in exchange for the promise of good, regular and affordable service for the passenger, whilst not closing the skies to competition. This happens in some form now. The Government has to make a priority the attracting of airline services to the Island, 3895 particularly on the lifeline routes, the opening of new routes, expanding the current routes – and we recognise this is a very difficult task, considering the present state of the airline business and the fact that we can only offer a small catchment area. It is clear that Government cannot afford massive subsidies to make our routes more attractive to airlines than those within the UK and continental routes. 3900 If I can now turn to the Council of Ministers’ comments on the Report's recommendations, which have been discussed by the Committee. The Economic Policy Review Committee believes that a review of Open Skies on a three-yearly basis is inadequate due to what we now realise can be quickly changing circumstances. Our Report is not a very lengthy review, as CoMin states, but is a snapshot of the circumstances at a particular time and is already out of date. Open Skies 3905 policy, we believe, should be kept under review as the industry is in this rapid state of change. CoMin’s interpretation of ‘light touch’ is certainly not our view. Light touch is not interfering. Normally, a request by an airline to commence a route would be answered positively, but it reserves a right to pause for thought with a request that… could this be a game changer? The CoMin statement says that the charging system has been altered during the time of the 3910 Committee's deliberations, and this, in our view, is an example of light touch regulation. This kind of change needs to continue according to circumstances and be innovative. In regard to our comments regarding a franchise-based airline, this is a suggestion that we considered could be looked at by the Department. We did not undertake further investigation as we are a policy review committee, not a policy creation committee. There may be a need for 3915 some original thinking, but we do realise that the Government is urgently seeking to find solutions to the current problems – but no proposals should be summarily dismissed.
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To come to our recommendations, we are of the opinion that there is no case for a change at this time – and I stress ‘at this time’ – to the basic policy of Open Skies. There is no answer where we could say to Government, ‘Why don't you just do… etc?’ However, hopefully the 3920 general economies of the Island and the UK will improve and Government should devise and have ready a contingency plan to maintain a licensing regime, whether light touch or otherwise, for the reasons I have explained, for when commercial realities warrant it. The Government should have in place a charging system at Ronaldsway which allows the Open Skies policy to continue but which encourages the safeguarding of particular routes and 3925 flight timings which particularly help the business traveller, so as not to lose our competitiveness to our rivals because of lack of access to and from the Island. The Committee do feel it would be worthwhile for the Government to explore the possibilities of companies offering leased aircraft, probably franchise based, perhaps involving wet leasing, which would enable the Government to secure airport landing slots, perhaps using 3930 smaller airports such Luton, but which is not an option under the present circumstances. Finally, we were asked to look at the position at the DED and DoI in respect of their current responsibilities – the DED determining the Island's civil aviation policy and the DoI determining the operation and management of the Airport. Putting together these responsibilities could bring a conflict of interest, and as there was practically no comment on this matter we 3935 recommend no change. Madam President, I therefore move the Item and recommendations printed at Item 6 on the Order Paper.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Butt. 3940 Mr Butt: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran. 3945 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I believe that this First Report of the Economics Committee 2013-14 should be referred back to the Economic Policy Review Committee for a fresh examination and report in light of the recent change in circumstances. I think everybody has been going on about the loss of this service, as far as the air service is 3950 concerned, but even more important than that is the effect that this can have as far as the finance industry is concerned if we do not find a way of sorting out an early-morning flight off this Island to London and back at night. I think we do not realise the seriousness of the situation as far as that is concerned. That will pale the actual air service loss of jobs into insignificance, which is a tragedy in itself. 3955 I find the points about the Chairman of the Committee's Report alarming, to put it at least… that Government cannot do anything anyway as far as an air service is concerned. The fact is what we do… and we were at a meeting the other week with some business people, my hon. colleague from South Douglas, and what we were saying… we were not complaining about their business situation; we were complaining that we, as legislators, have to make that environment. 3960 We, as legislators, are supposed to be there, the guardians, to protect the taxpayer against the business interests. We are there to protect those interests. They are there to protect the interests of their business and their shareholders and whatever. That is the right role, but I do feel in this Court too often we do not do our job as far as that is concerned. The Chairman has already said that the Report is already out of date, and I think that gives 3965 substance to what I am saying – that it should be referred back – because it needs to be referred back. It says an air service can drop a route at the drop of a hat. We need to make sure that we have the environment so that they do not want to drop their hat, and I believe that the situation is that this is where parliamentary scrutiny should be there to help executive Government. It has ______498 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
been a long battle, trying to get the idea that parliamentary scrutiny is there actually to 3970 scrutinise the executive function and to try and encourage them to look at things from different angles, which sometimes is not the case. I think the situation with this Report, as it has been laid down, as far as this Committee is concerned… I feel it should be referred back. I think it is really concerning. I think most people would say that the Report is meaningless, if the truth is known. I know in here we have different 3975 ideas of what we believe in here and what people outside this Court… That is why I get so many people in here so upset. But if they were to look at this Report, they would wonder what have the Committee actually done. Let’s just highlight the usual rubbish that we have, that we are always criticising executive Government. This is not executive Government; this is actually a Committee of this Chamber, 3980 part of the parliamentary process, so the usual dialogue of misrepresentation that usually happens as far as this Hon. Member is concerned… I am trying to be consistent. (Interjection) Hon. Members, I believe that, particularly with the recent change in circumstances, there is a real need for this Committee to be looking at this issue thoroughly again. I believe that if we do not do that it is a great missed opportunity as far as parliamentary scrutiny is concerned. 3985 I feel that the input from the Chairman, who is one of the more academically wise in this Hon. Court, (Interjection) has been a disappointment, to say the least, as far as being the Chairman of this Report of this Committee One of the things which it does highlight, which I think needs to be highlighted again – and we have seen block votes against it – is the fact that we should be seriously thinking of having 3990 more flexibility to these Committees, so that they can have people putting real input into the committee stage of developing these reports from outside this Hon. Court, so that they can use that knowledge to help them come up with more meaningful reports. I think it is a missed opportunity. At the end of the day, we, as the elected Members of this Court, have the vote, and we should always have the vote as far as a report is concerned, and 3995 the committee should have the… [Inaudible] but there should be no restrictions from letting committees having lay people in there to make sure they get afforded the right information, so that they are making the right decisions on the right basis with the broadest picture.
Mr Henderson: Point of order, Eaghtyrane. I think the Chairman should be allowed to clarify 4000 that the Committee offered the community every available opportunity for expertise input, such as Mr Liddiard and –
The President: Under which point of order do you make that point, sir? (Laughter)
4005 Mr Henderson: The fact that Mr Karran –
The President: Take your seat.
Mr Henderson: – is misleading the public – 4010 The President: Take your seat.
Mr Henderson: – of the Isle of Man with his nonsense.
4015 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I am not arguing that point. (Interjections) What I am arguing is the point that I think it would more likely have been handy for the Committee’s membership to have people actually at the Committee itself, putting input to help them so they got the finger on the right pulse as far as this issue is concerned. That is what I am arguing, Eaghtyrane.
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I am not arguing the point about going out to ask… but I do think this is important. This is the 4020 sort of thing that I have battled for years about the Public Accounts Committee, if we are ever going to get that really with its finger on the pulse as far as protecting the taxpayer is concerned.
A Member: Even when you were on it?
4025 Mr Karran: I think I have said enough at the moment, as far as this is… (Members: Hear, hear.) I know that that is always the way, but I would like to see this referred back. I hope that we will see this being referring back because I think it needs referring back, because this is a serious issue. I actually think that when people talk about Mickey Mouse and Disney World, sometimes we bring these things on ourselves with some of these reports on such important 4030 issues. We need this issue referred back; it is most important. I beg to move:
To leave out all the words after ‘That the First Report of the Economic Committee 2013-14 [PP0132/13] be’ and insert ‘referred back to the Economic Policy Review Committee for fresh examination and report in the light of recently changed circumstances.’
The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: Thank you. 4035 I would like to thank the Hon. Member, Mr Singer, for his comments on the Open Skies Report and the Economic Policy Review Committee for their work and recommendations in the review of Open Skies. The Council of Ministers, the Department of Economic Development and my Department are content to agree with the Committee's recommendation that the status quo be maintained and 4040 that there will be no immediate change in the current policy of maintaining Open Skies access to routes to and from the Isle of Man – a position endorsed by all airlines serving the Island. The recommendation is in line with the three previous reviews – held in 2003, 2006 and 2009 – which came to the same conclusion. My Department will ensure that the previous regime of regular reviews will continue. Given the timing of this particular review, I can state now that the 4045 next Open Skies review will take place in 2015 and will continue thereafter on a three-yearly basis. A review is a massive amount of work, and if you look at the work of the Committee here, it has taken 15 months from motion to Report, which is why we recommend a three-year review. Looking into the detail of the recommendations, two of the three recommendations make 4050 suggestions for the preparation of contingency plans or the investigation into the possibility of establishing a franchise-based airline. The Department will work with other relevant Departments to consider contingencies as and when additional finance is available to undertake such work. The Department does not recommend that the Government establishes a franchise- based airline at this stage. 4055 I am pleased that the Committee agrees that my Department remains responsible for aviation policy, and I would like to reassure the Hon. Member that my Department is committed to working closely with the Department of Economic Development on airline and marketing issues. I would like to take this opportunity of updating Hon. Members with regard to the current 4060 situation with our airlines, (A Member: Hear, hear.) although there is little new information so far in the early part of this week. We are awaiting confirmation of the start of a new Glasgow route to be operated from the end of March 2014 and I am hopeful of some news shortly. With regard to the Flybe services, we have all heard that they have already announced that 4065 they will not be operating to the summer destinations we usually have – Southampton, Jersey, ______500 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Bristol and Luton. We are still in dialogue with Flybe concerning the Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool services, especially with regard to the patient-transfer service to Liverpool. None of the options Flybe are currently considering include the retention of the 49 Island-based Flybe staff, which I am very disappointed about. I understand that the Flybe staff have now been given 4070 notice of redundancy to finish work at the end of January 2013. We are still in discussions with Flybe regarding these three routes, and as soon as I have some further information on this I will ensure Hon. Members are properly briefed. Hon. Members, I am delighted to be able to pass on some very welcome news today. With the permission of British Airways, I can make the following announcement: British Airways is 4075 intending to increase services from the Isle of Man to London with three return flights a day to City Airport next year. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) The airline currently operates one return flight a day and full details will be announced in the coming weeks, hopefully by Christmas. Hon. Members will be aware that for some considerable time we have been working at the highest level to achieve this outcome. Indeed, it has been an example of the Isle of Man at its 4080 best, and I place on record the appreciation of the Isle of Man Government for the support in Manx Business Connection, on behalf of a number of local companies, in achieving this result, which has to be so good in particular for the Isle of Man business community. British Airways is a partner the Isle of Man is delighted to co-operate with, and this announcement brings to an end a period of some uncertainty, which I am sure will be warmly welcomed by Members of Tynwald 4085 and the Isle of Man population.
Several Members: Hear, hear.
The President: The Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan. 4090 Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President. I will take the opposite view to the Member for Onchan, and I think I will congratulate the Chairman of the Economic Policy Review Committee on what I thought was a very interesting Report. I do not entirely agree with absolutely all the recommendations that his Committee have 4095 brought through; nevertheless, it was a very useful exercise, full of very useful content and information. I obviously welcome that news from the Minister for Infrastructure, as I am sure we all do, about the BA response to matters, but I cannot help thinking that generally I have been a bit concerned about the response from the Council of Ministers. I wonder whether the BA issue is 4100 again an issue that is going to last for a year of certainty and whether we are then going to have to face the same problems in a year’s time, because I think what has been clear is that this is a very fluid and fast-moving situation, and I think what is also clear is that it is very disturbing – for the business community, for our residents on the Island, for the holidaymakers – to have such uncertainty about the to-ings and fro-ings of our airlines. 4105 One of the very positive things I felt about this Report was the responses that were received from the community at large, but my view was that a large proportion of those responses were calling for some sort of regulation in regard to routes and for some sort of framework to be put in place to allow more certainty of operation from the airlines. Can I just quote from some of those responses. Mr Brian Kelly, the chief executive of one of 4110 our well-known travel companies, calls for a closed sky policy:
‘Key routes such as Gatwick, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham and London City protected under a closed Sky policy with Flybe and British Airways. Workable agreements that include fares, rotations, aircraft type and service level agreements.’
Another response here, from Mr Carl Barks, an experienced pilot:
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‘From my ten years experience… the IOM routes are too small for competition. Regulation will be required if you want cheap fares for the leisure travellers and flexibility for regular business [passengers].’
From Mr Trimby, a chief executive of a sports business, who says:
‘I very firmly believe that the Isle of Man would be best served by restricting access to airlines who will commit to providing a guaranteed, year round service. It seems to me that in the current situation this could be achieved by granting licences to Flybe, Citywings, BA and Aer Arran...’
4115 Two more responses. Mr Richard Hughes, a local businessman, who says:
‘What would be beneficial is if Tynwald seriously considered a policy like the one in Guernsey. Here an airline is given exclusive rights to a route in order to protect a regular service. It is highly regulated so that the airline has to operate in a certain window of costing and regulation.’
And finally, Madam President, Captain Bridson:
‘The Government has the power to legislate towards either option. I firmly believe that leaving the open Skies Policy unchanged, will, in a relatively short timescale, deliver an irregular, unreliable and infrequent air service.’
So there we have it from a number of experienced air professionals and businessmen and other members of the community who all feel exactly the same thing: that somehow we need to get more certainty into our air operations, and that this can only be achieved with some form of 4120 regulation. It is really, for me, not a question of whether we can afford to regulate; it is a question of can we not afford to regulate, because although the free market is giving short-term benefits, the long-term inevitable result is of detriment as the airlines abandon the Island and/or reduce services. 4125 I think that the Council of Ministers is really going to have to give some more serious thought as to whether we are heading in the right direction here. I think I would feel incredibly frustrated if we were having to, year on year for the foreseeable future, have to ask Questions to the Minister about whether or not a certain route was going to survive. We have had the issues with Scotland; we have had the issues with Gatwick. BA have, fortunately, come in and rescued the 4130 situation and resolved the situation today, certainly for the business travellers to London, but whether that is going to resolve the situation for those doing international travel to further afield, for holidaymakers wanting connections to international flights, I am not really sure, and that remains to be seen. Certainly I have been a supporter of the free market, but really this Report has made me sit 4135 up and think. One thing I will agree with the Member for Onchan on was that this is a very serious matter and I do not think it can be treated lightly and I do not think… or I dread to sense that we are going to deal with this on an ad hoc basis as and when things arise, because they will arise. We are going to have, as far as I can see, this continued to-ing and fro-ing of airline services – the irregularity of not knowing what is happening from one season to the next. 4140 I really think the recommendation that has been made for the Government to prepare a contingency plan to maintain a licensing regime, whether a light touch or otherwise, should be commenced immediately. I really would urge the Council of Ministers and the Minister that this is a matter that needs urgent attention and that we really should be entering some form of discussions with professionals to see how a regulated framework could work for both parties – 4145 both for airlines and to the benefit of the Island, its businesses, its residents and the travellers to and from our Isle. So that is it. I will be supporting the Report today, Madam President, but I would like those comments to be taken on board, and certainly I think if we get more uncertainty in the New Year or next year, then I probably will be looking to bring forward a more positive motion in terms of 4150 what I think Government perhaps should be doing to resolve the issues. I will not be supporting Mr Karran’s motion for it to be referred back. I cannot see what – ______502 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: It is not yet before the Court, Hon. Member. (Mr Cannan: Pardon?) Because it has not yet been seconded, it is not before the Court.
4155 Mr Cannan: Okay, well, if it does get seconded, Madam President, (Laughter) I will not be supporting it. For clarity purposes, I do not see what the Policy Review Committee now, at this stage, could possibly hope to achieve. I think this has now become a matter for the Council of Ministers; and failing the Council of Ministers, then again this will have to be a matter that will have to come back before this Hon. Court. 4160 Thank you, Madam President.
The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 4165 It might sound a bit strange after some of the altercations today between myself and Mr Karran opposite, the Hon. Member, but I will be supporting his amendment, (A Member: Ooh!) because I think it makes a bit of sense when we think about the developing situation that is unfolding at the minute and the fact that the Chairman of the Committee has said himself that events have almost overtaken the issuing of the Report for the debate this afternoon, or words 4170 to that effect. It seems to me that really the Report needs an amendment to it in some form, and this is a way to do it, whereby the Committee can have a look at the events that have overtaken the production of this Report and supply us with something by way of an assessment on these latest events, notably Flybe. I think that is very sensible and it is a good way forward. 4175 I would say to the Hon. Member opposite me, though, that the Committee was informed by expert opinion. He finally clarified that he meant that he was talking about Members sitting on the Committee. His initial impression was that the Committee was not advised in any way; yet my constituents, professional pilots and so on, have advised the Committee – I can advise the Court of that – and certainly people such as Terry Liddiard in the background who have helped 4180 with their own piece of expert opinion. I am amazed in some ways that we are here at this point today, not just because of the Report but because of the events surrounding Flybe as well that are intertwined with it. We had the Manx Airlines situation years ago, where they were bought out and it folded. We had a vacuum. We had British Airways then; we had other airlines. All the same things we are arguing 4185 about now – it is almost déjà vu, as I remember, from something like 2000, 2003, 2004, something like that maybe. We were served well at that point. Okay, we moaned about the airfares and so on, but when I used that system at that time, both professionally and from a business point of view, and for other reasons on frequent occasions at one point, I could not have been served better, and it 4190 highlights to me… and the flexibility that was built in at that time was the other thing: a single carrier that had the flexibility for adjusting your tickets, no weight restrictions on your suitcases and so on, and all the things that we love to hate these days were not there then, so there was a little bit of balance in that. But the security was there and the flexibility that was so important for the likes of business travellers. 4195 The recommendation that says to look into leasing an aircraft carrier, for instance – I think that need serious consideration. It should not just be batted off, as we have heard odd times over the years here. I think that now, given the current circumstances we find ourselves in, that needs more serious consideration, or similar, or an adjunct in the background here so that we have contingency plans going forward or constructed in the near future. Once we reorganise 4200 ourselves and get ourselves out of this and remanage the situation, there has to be a serious look at contingency planning in the background here. We cannot just have announcements being made and suddenly we are almost left high and dry. That is a very good point that the Committee make and I fully support that, Eaghtyrane. ______503 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
I thank the Transport Minister, if I can call him that, for making the announcement this 4205 afternoon with regard to the hard work in the background that has been going on. I do not want to detract – was the point I was wanting to make too – from the work that is going on in the background, even though I am supporting this Report. There has been a lot of work done in the background and there has been a lot of pressure put on: Questions asked – not least by this Hon. Member – on what is going on, and the Minister has been good enough to come back and give 4210 us that this afternoon. I am very disappointed, I have to say, with the job loss announcement, very disappointed. It is something we will have to work with and I am sure those staff will be helped and supported through the relevant… Department of Economic Development and so on, and maybe we will get opportunities going forward that they may be able to be redeployed, or some of them anyway, 4215 or a retraining programme. Without saying too much more, I would say to Hon. Members just look at the wording of the Hon. Member for Onchan’s amendment. Put his rhetoric to one side. If we can just look at the core theme of what he was driving for, that is the point and I think that is worth causing the Committee to carry on its work. I do not see it as a slight on the Report. I see it as a very 4220 necessary adjunct so they can come back with a re-evaluation of the current situation, Eaghtyrane.
The President: I take it, Hon. Member, your expression of support is a seconding of the motion? 4225 The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Yes, I rise to second the amendment.
4230 The President: It has already been seconded, Madam.
A Member: Done.
Mrs Beecroft: Oh, I beg your pardon, you have done it. Can I speak to the amendment? 4235 The President: You can speak to the motion, indeed.
Mrs Beecroft: Yes, I think it is a very sensible way forward because I do not see how we can leave it at that, given the circumstances that have evolved so rapidly, and again with the 4240 announcement just this afternoon partway through the debate. I do think that it is causing a lack of confidence in all sorts of areas and I think we need some clarity. It is such a crucial area, so I do not see how we can just recommend that the status quo be maintained. Why the Council of Ministers do not want to review it again until 2015 is actually, quite frankly, beyond me. It does not make sense. People are worried about this. Business is 4245 worried about it – people coming to the Island, people going from the Island. There is no confidence there and we have to do something to restore that confidence. Various Ministers have been and still are very consistent in their messages that we need inward investment – and they are right; they are absolutely right – but how are we going to get that inward investment if we do not solve the problem with the confidence in the airline and the 4250 travel to and from here? There was a recommendation to prepare a contingency plan to maintain a licensing regime, whether a light touch or otherwise, against the day when commercial realities demand this. They know that commercial realities are going to demand it at some time, so what I would like to know, Madam President, is why is there no contingency plan already in place? Why wouldn’t
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4255 anybody have a contingency plan for something like this, something so crucial to the Isle of Man? As a previous speaker said, the other recommendation is to investigate the possibility of establishing a franchise-based airline, and this is so that Government could own landing slots. The Council of Ministers does not even think it is a good idea and do not want to even spend 4260 time investigating the possibility. They say the Department of Infrastructure suggests that any funds that are available to protect air services would be more advantageously used to support current operators and routes. They do not say what funds are available and how these funds would be used to support the current operators. What they do say is the operation of an airline is a commercial activity with significant financial risk, and they go on to note that very few 4265 airlines actually make a profit. But doesn’t that make it all the more important that we actually have a plan? (Mr Karran: Hear, hear.) A proper plan that has been well thought out; not a plan that says, ‘Well, let's do nothing and wait and see what has happened by 2015.’ I do not think that is good enough. I think we deserve better than that. Where is the impact assessment to support this non-action? Where is the risk analysis? 4270 I believe it boils down to this: by whatever means that is feasible, that can be worked out, we need an airline based here so that we have the early-morning flights and the late-evening flights coming back. We need an airline that is based here so that people can have confidence – from my perspective, being spokesperson for health for the party – in the patient transfer service. There are extreme worries about that. They might be solved in the short term just now, but to 4275 my mind that is not good enough. We need long-term confidence in some sort of structure, some sort of plan, that we are not being bounced from pillar to post on these issues. I think we need an airline based here so that our business community can have confidence that they can maintain the appropriate links with their clients and with their customers; and we do need landing slots at various airports in the UK that are as secure as they can be so that we 4280 can have confidence in the future. I honestly think that it has been demonstrated this afternoon, particularly with the very welcome announcement about BA, that this is very fast moving, as other speakers have said, and I do think it needs to go back to the Committee. Let them have another look at it – they have not had time to look at all the latest things that have gone on – and maybe take into consideration 4285 how quick it is moving and the fact that we do need something more concrete for the Council of Ministers to respond to. Let’s have a proper debate on something, a concrete recommendation, or even several that the Council of Ministers need to consider. We have to get somewhere with this. We cannot just leave it and say, ‘Well, we’ll think about it next year; we’ll think about doing something in 2015.’ 4290 I think the Committee… I hope the Committee would actually welcome the opportunity to revisit the enormous amount of work that they have done already. We can see that from the size of the Report. They have taken a taken a huge amount of evidence and collated an awful lot of information and it is a shame if that just stops now with the recommendation, that the Council of Ministers would like to accept, of maintaining the status quo. I do not think that is 4295 acceptable and I hope the Committee will take it in the spirit that it is meant – that it is an opportunity to add a bit to it, or whatever, to make it a more substantial recommendation, a more substantial Report. Thank you, Madam President.
4300 The President: The Hon Member of Council, Mr Turner.
Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President. Of course, the debate we are having is about Open Skies and I think it is Open Skies which has actually somewhat saved us in the short term (A Member: Hear, hear.) in this position.
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4305 I am a little bit unsure whether the Committee continuing would be possibly a distraction in the immediate future. I think we need to look at this in some sort of context, because there are a great number of people, particularly in the Isle of Man, looking inward at this issue. We have to realise that the decision, particularly to do with Gatwick, had no bearing at all on the Isle of Man or its Open Skies policy. Flybe's decision to pull out of London Gatwick was, in 4310 their own words, due to a 102% rise in airport charges at London Gatwick, and they went on to say it was combined with a punitive double hit on air passenger duty in which governments have seen the air traveller as a cash cow. In May 2013, earlier this year, it sold all its arrival-departure slots at Gatwick to easyJet for £20 million. It had no bearing at all on its operation in the Isle of Man, and anybody who thinks that if for some reason we had that route licensed and Flybe had 4315 preferential treatment on it, or there was some sort of regulation, that would have saved Flybe's decision to pull out of Gatwick, is not looking at the real situation (Interjection) because they would not keep… No, they would not keep one route operating whilst closing their entire base for one route – it would not happen.
4320 A Member: We know that.
Mr Turner: The Chairman of Flybe said that the ugly reality is that Gatwick simply does not want smaller regional aircraft at their airport and governments’ penalistic and ludicrous policy of charging Air Passenger Duty (APD) on both legs of a domestic flight is the reason – governments, 4325 including our own. I think I am probably the only Member of this Court who has not voted for the Air Passenger Duty every time it comes round. So if the UK, and indeed the Isle of Man Government, wish to help the airlines, then they should join the campaign to scrap this harmful and damaging tax. If we look at the evidence that was given by Miss Gayward from easyJet, APD also comes up 4330 in that, and she says in her submission to the oral evidence:
‘I think one of the things which has really had an impact on UK domestic travel is government taxation, APD, and I think one of the things that we have alluded to perhaps is the difference between the Isle of Man and… Jersey. Jersey does not charge APD for departing passengers. That makes a significant amount of difference.’
She does go on and says when you take into account that you could be charged £13 per passenger, for a family of four that is quite a significant difference. She says:
‘I think Government taxation is the key issue and… we [should] urge you to lobby government in Westminster to reconsider, as we have seen some other markets do. For example, Northern Ireland have excluded APD for long-haul travel,’
– that was much publicised –
‘which I think has made a huge difference to securing their trans-Atlantic services for the long haul.’
APD is no doubt damaging to domestic air travel across the whole of the United Kingdom and 4335 is also a factor for airlines, of which… it is an outside impact to us. So I think Open Skies would have had no difference… Indeed, we would have ended up with probably no operator on the Gatwick route. There are a lot of submissions in the Report, which I have read, and it seems that many of the views against Open Skies are not based on any actual evidence – they are merely opinion, and in 4340 some cases the opinion is based on misinterpreting the facts – yet the case for retaining Open Skies at present is based on actual historical fact. The mover, Mr Singer, alluded to the rose-tinted spectacles of Manx Airlines. We have heard numerous people saying in recent weeks how we should bring back our own airline, Manx ______506 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Airlines. Well, it was owned by British Midland and I think Air UK had a hand in it, and it was very 4345 expensive – and that was before the days of Air Passenger duty – so we have to put that into context. I think one of the most telling submissions to the Report itself is the submission by Mr Tony Norman. He has, through aim2fly, put some quite detailed facts and figures. They are all there on the record for people to review, but I want to pick out some of the points that have 4350 been raised. It was interesting that I also read recently that easyJet were being blamed as well, in Manx Tails this month, for being possibly one of the reasons why Flybe has pulled out, and that also is utter nonsense, (A Member: Hear, hear.) and the evidence – evidence, not opinion – substantiates that. In this it says:
‘… the recent involvement of easyJet on the Liverpool and Gatwick routes demonstrates that, so far there has been benefit to the Isle of Man and its Airport. Air traffic has increased…’
I think the recent figures which came out from the Airport showed that overall both easyJet’s 4355 and Flybe's passenger numbers had increased on those routes, so I am having difficulty in understanding the argument as to how the addition of easyJet is going to come at a cost. Indeed, if we did not have them we would be, as I said before, without any Gatwick service. There has been much rhetoric about all these airlines that have ceased because of competition on the routes, and not one single airline has withdrawn or closed the route as a 4360 result of operating under Open Skies. Emerald was mentioned. They, of course, lost their Air Operator Certificate. They were in competition with Manx Airlines on the Liverpool route in the late 1990s. The route was actually grown during that period from 139,000: at the peak it went up to 215,000. They had actually grown the route by having competition on it. 4365 Manx Airlines, of course, was sold to BA, and then that operation was sold to Flybe. They actually expanded the routes. The demise of Emerald in 2005, as I said, was due to them losing their Air Operator Certificate and the Open Skies policy enabled an operator to step in at short notice. The EuroManx collapse: again, the company was sold and when they went into a far too 4370 ambitious business plan – they purchased aircraft and built up huge debts – the company ceased operations, but the Open Skies policy, it is well documented, was not a factor for that airline going under. And so it goes on. Then we had the withdrawal of Aer Arann from London City: again, that was due to Aer Lingus taking the stake there and the reason was that, because the airline was 4375 based out of Dublin and there was no Ireland-to-City services, they were not willing to keep on an Isle of Man… It was almost like a bit of a satellite operation and it did not form part of their business plan. But of course BA stepped in – I think it was within very short notice; I cannot remember the exact time. So the conclusion is that not a single one of these airlines has withdrawn routes as a result of 4380 Open Skies. We, of course, have the dilemma of what is going to happen with Gatwick. We have heard other conversations of… ‘We could look at Southend, we could look at Stansted, we could look at here, we could look at there,’ but I think the important thing for the Isle of Man is to retain a major south of England hub. We need to try and protect Gatwick at all costs. Of course, that 4385 would mean that any operator flying into Gatwick is going to have to fly the bigger aircraft that easyJet are flying, as Gatwick have said they do not wish to have the smaller aircraft and anyone who flies them in will be paying a penalty. So, if we are looking at going down the route of franchising, which I do not think is appropriate at this moment in time, then the aircraft that would have to be flown would have to fit in with Gatwick's operations, and leasing an aircraft of 4390 similar size to what we have with Flybe, the Dash 8, is only going to give us the same problem that they have.
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I understand the predicament of the Committee, that the situation has been constantly changing, and I think it is unfortunate that the Open Skies debate has coincided with some very changing times in the aviation industry in the UK. I do not think the Committee could add a lot 4395 extra at this stage. I think the Airport, the Department, need to continue negotiations now with the airlines and be allowed to get on with it. I think if we are starting to bring in regulation, that would do more harm to attracting airlines here at a time when we most need them, so I will be supporting the Committee's recommendations, the motion as printed.
4400 The President: Hon. Members, I think it is now time to take a break. We will come back to the Chamber at twenty five to six by the Court clock, and the first to speak will be the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Downie.
The Court adjourned at 5.08 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.35 p.m.
Economic Policy Review Committee: Open Skies – Debate concluded – First Report received and recommendations accepted
The President: We continue our debate on Item 6. I call on the Hon. Member, Mr Downie. 4405 Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President. What we are seeing here in this Report is not new, and I am sure that, if you are following what goes on within airlines in Europe, lots of other smaller countries, even larger countries, are faced with a similar problem. Looking at some articles yesterday about countries like Hungary, 4410 where airlines like Wizz have come in and taken over and lots of other airlines have gone, it just shows that the problem is not one unique to us. In fact, if you look at the demographics of the UK at the moment, there is a problem with Belfast, Aberdeen, Inverness, Glasgow, the west of England – we see that Newlyn has come to an arrangement and obviously paid money to acquire slots, or whatever. 4415 I honestly think, in my own mind, that this is purely and squarely an issue for executive Government to resolve, and in my opinion this is the biggest single issue affecting the further economic development of the Isle of Man at the present time. We need to get it and what we need to do is to accept the Report today. I think they have done a good job, but in fairness let’s move it on now to where it should be within the two Departments and the Council of Ministers, 4420 and let’s have the confidence in them to try and progress the matter. I think it is very important that we keep open dialogue with any airline which is interested in coming to the Isle of Man. I appreciate and welcome the news today that we are going to have some additional flights to London City; but really, Hon. Members, what is crucial to the development of this economy is our ability to get in and out, at the proper times, of a full-blown 4425 international airport, (Mr Quirk: Hear, hear.) and this is where the loss of Gatwick at key times is going to be absolutely crucial to the Island. When you think that not only can we not get into Gatwick until fairly late in the day but there are going to be no flights at all to and from the Isle of Man on a Saturday and only one on a Sunday afternoon, which is very late in the day, none of this is conducive to long-haul travel. 4430 Whereas we might have come up with a fix for the one-day business passenger going into London City, I still think our Achilles’ heel at the present time is the time of the rotations in and out of Gatwick and I think it would be absolutely brilliant if easyJet could be persuaded to have a morning flight and an evening flight. That would really go some way to resolving the issue. I have great worries about our future this summer. We are trying to develop a tourist 4435 industry, we are trying to run events like the TT, and yet we are losing major routes with Flybe. My own personal view – and it is only a personal view – is I think Liverpool will be time-expired. ______508 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
It is the only destination that Flybe actually fly to and from, and that is the Isle of Man to Liverpool. They do not go to anywhere else from there, as I understand it now, because Liverpool has become a Ryanair and easyJet hub. They have obviously got into bed there with 4440 the big boys and all they are interested in is getting people in and out of there, mostly at the weekends. It is ironic that as we are in the middle of all this, Jersey are still boasting up to 16 rotations a day, many of them to London, with links to Charles de Gaulle and Schiphol, where they do not pay any APD. 4445 So we go back to the issue that I raised early on about this matter hopefully being ramped up and being dealt with by people like the British-Irish Council, with a view to perhaps convincing the UK government that their policy with regard to domestic travel by air in the UK is in fact broken and needs to be dealt with quite soon. It is only a matter of time before there is not the level of investment in places like Aberdeen and Inverness and so on, because they are going to 4450 have the same issue that we are going to have, and I think the only way we will ever get some mileage in all this is by getting together and trying to find some people with the same issues and to get it dealt with collectively, rather than just being picked off on our own. I would congratulate the Committee. I think they have done an excellent Report – they have heard lots of evidence, but I think they have done the work now and it is time to move on. Quite 4455 fairly and squarely, this issue is one that has got to be dealt with by the Ministers for Infrastructure and Economic Development and the Chief Minister, and it is vitally important we give them our support.
The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Shimmin. 4460 Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Madam President. Certainly it has been said by myself and other Ministers, particularly in recent weeks with the Questions, that this quite simply is the most important issue we have been dealing with for many months now. 4465 I think for anybody to try and underestimate the delicacy and the understanding that we have regarding the economic importance of routes, particularly into London (A Member: Luton.) but also into the wider Flybe network, misjudges just how seriously we in Council of Ministers – and I think in this whole parliamentary assembly on the Isle of Man – realise that it is important for the future of the Isle of Man. 4470 I think I have said in a speech previously let’s look back over the last 10 years at the comments that have been made repeatedly in the United Kingdom media about the undercapacity of air routes into London. The issue about what happens in Heathrow: do they have another terminal; do they have another runway? What do we do to actually get more capacity into the south east of the United Kingdom? 4475 What we are seeing is almost an inevitable consequence of that, but there is increasing pressure, as outlined by Mr… [Inaudible], that the airports in that area that are heavily squeezed… they want larger planes coming in with larger payloads, with larger APD, with larger customers going through their duty free shop areas, so the regional airports are having to now expand to fill some of those difficulties because London was and is full. 4480 I think the Member of Council, Mr Downie, was talking about one of the aspects about Gatwick and long haul, and that is important for the business community but we have not got the critical mass of business travel which goes to regularly make it a viable proposition. What we have seen in recent weeks and months is they have got to be viable businesses in order to actually make the airlines operate those routes. 4485 Only yesterday, or today, Flybe announced, in a very similar fashion to what we are seeing in the Isle of Man, that they are not going to have the early plane from Guernsey into Southampton, and that means patient transfers, where they take people from Guernsey…
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exactly the same situation we are having in the Isle of Man. So we are not unique and nobody owes us a living – we have got to actually make sure that it is economically viable. 4490 I think that is why it is important for us all to realise that the negotiations going on between Government and BA CityFlyer were not in isolation, but as the Minister for Infrastructure pointed out, that was working hand in glove with the private sector and the business community on the Isle of Man, and I have on record my great appreciation because this is the three parties working together to get a satisfactory outcome. In isolation, the Government or the business 4495 community might not have been able to convince BA CityFlyer that that was going to be a viable operation for them. The Member of Council, Mr Downie, has just shown how complex this area always is because we now have a good local leisure market into London on an easyJet flight into Gatwick, which also brings in larger numbers from the south-east at a lower price for the tourist market. 4500 Part of what happened with the Flybe situation into Gatwick was also compounded because there were easyJet and Flybe competing into the same airport. So all that competition, which if easyJet were to increase their operations into and out of Gatwick, indeed might actually again put more pressure upon the BA route into London City. We are trying to service our own home market, which is very small; we are trying to support 4505 and build our business community on and off the Island, which require a full day's work in both London or on the Island; we are trying to build a tourism proposition, which everybody in this Court says is a major part of our economic… going forward, we are trying to enhance and build the tourist proposition. The rest of the world, particularly the British islands, are used to having low-cost air travel, and if we are not in that market then we are nowhere. 4510 Some of the Members this afternoon have talked about Guernsey as a model for us, but actually look what is happening there with the local population in Guernsey, who are absolutely furious that they are exploiting… or they are avoiding the ability to get easyJet to go into there, because they own and operate Aurigny, they have a closed skies policy, and therefore the cheaper fares that we are enjoying are denied the people in Guernsey. 4515 It is not one-way traffic; it is not a perfect solution. The reality is that we are now getting to a position where the airports and the airlines are facing up to the real commercial future, and we have got to do the same. Our business community has been unsettled by this to an enormously damaging level, and certainly the Member for South Douglas, when she talked about lack of confidence… that has 4520 majorly been exacerbated by some of the behaviour and conduct of people in this Court, the Questions, the publicity and indeed some of those persons outside (A Member: Hear, hear.) – unelected, but representing TravelWatch, representing the public of the Isle of Man – who have been making some outrageous statements which have been very damaging to confidence in the Isle of Man. (A Member: Hear, hear.) 4525 Two of the newer Members in the Court – Mr Cannan from Michael and Mrs Beecroft for South Douglas – in time will realise that when you are looking at a Report like this, as outlined by the Minister for Infrastructure… In 2003, I sat on a parliamentary committee with the Member for Ramsey, Mr Singer, looking at Open Skies. The Department then looked at it in 2006, looked at it in 2009, another parliamentary investigation in 2012 into 2013. All of them, over that length 4530 of time, have come to the same conclusion: it sounds attractive to find the alternative route. But let’s be clear: the Minister for Infrastructure would not have made that announcement this afternoon – BA CityFlyer would not be here – if we did not have Open Skies. (Two Members: Hear, hear.) All of the positivity that we now take out of that decision lies purely with the fact that we have Open Skies, because every one of our airlines – and I use the word ‘airlines’ – want 4535 the Open Skies. Other parties – be they within the travel area, be they within the air operators area – will have other agendas. They will want to actually see that a closed sky may actually allow a degree of exclusivity for them to pick up part of the market; and I can understand that, but if we want regularity of airlines… Who is better to run an airline: the Government of the Isle of Man or the ______510 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
4540 government of Guernsey; or an airline operator? Sometimes you have to be a little bit careful about saying some of the comments that Mrs Beecroft said, which is that by whatever means we need to have based here planes, airline, for the patient transfer etc. One of our other colleagues this morning was talking about health-related issues: we have got to keep these things here. Have a look at the Guernsey costs; have a look at how they are 4545 affected by some of these issues. The Liberal Vannin Party seem to be saying that by whatever means – it does not matter how much impact on other parts of service for Government – we need to have this as the number-one priority, until the next debate or the next issue or the next capital programme. It is easy to come out with comments about we need to get landing slots secured, so let’s 4550 look at the millions of pounds paid by easyJet to get landing slots secured. Let’s look at some of the support that we can put into these things. Well, Government is not allowed to give subsidies. So let’s be honest with the public that we cannot afford an airline, we cannot afford to buy the slots, we can work with airline operators, and in the past, in the good days, we have 4555 probably been overserviced to too many destinations with too many small planes, which have been too expensive, (A Member: Absolutely.) and when times are tight and harder, people cannot afford those sorts of flights and destinations. Members have talked about how can we wait until 2015, how can we do this on an ad hoc basis. It is so patronising when you talk about it in ways as if this is taking Government by 4560 surprise, as if we were not anticipating some of this. We are working with these airlines all the time. The Hon. Member for Michael turned round and said we need urgent attention, we need professionals. That is exactly what we have. The Member of Council, Mr Turner, was referring to Tony Norman. People like that – professionals who built into this system of aviation for a lifetime’s profession – are supporting 4565 and helping our Government to deal with the very difficult challenges faced by it. I am disappointed by the response of Council. How many times can the Chief Minister or any of us say we cannot negotiate on the floor of Tynwald Court when we are dealing with private operators, whether they be in the banking world or the airline world? So there are things that we were not at liberty to disclose because negotiations were delicate, (A Member: Hear, hear.) 4570 and when you have got boards that have to actually make decisions in their boardrooms affecting the future of the Isle of Man, I do not want that to be damaged by careless words in this Court or in the media, yet that is what is happening. We have been here before; we will be here again. The Department of Infrastructure have said they will be reviewing this again. We are now at the end of 2013. It takes four to five 4575 months to do one of these reviews, and they have said they are doing it in 2015. Actually, by my reckoning, that is 12 or 13 months away. We have just gone through an exercise and I do find it somewhat disappointing that those of you who are against Government and kick Government because you are dissatisfied with the Council of Ministers is one thing; but we then appoint, as a parliament, standing committees of your parliament, and just because they come up with an 4580 answer you do not like you rubbish them and say, ‘Go back and do it better.’ It is a parliamentary Committee with a Chairman, who I hope will forgive me for saying that in the past I believe he has been an advocate of Open Skies, (Mr Singer: No.) and therefore he has looked at this with an open mind. Sorry, a critic of Open Skies. My apologies – thank you for correcting me – a critic of open skies. He was, 12 years ago; he still is at the moment. Yet having 4585 taken, as Mr Turner said, the evidence, it does not back up in the best interest of the Isle of Man to move away from it. If that does not fit into your prejudice you are never going to like the Report, whatever it is. That is a parliamentary Committee that took evidence from critics and supporters of the Open Skies policy, came forward with a recommendation, or the recommendations, that the Chairman 4590 probably would have preferred to have come at a different way. I am extremely grateful to him and the Committee for looking at the evidence to determine what is in the best interest of the ______511 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Isle of Man, and once again, for the fourth time, have come out and said that however unpopular it might be in the small-minded group of people who think there is an easy way of solving this, when you look at the evidence, the airlines need the Open Skies in order for them to 4595 trade and do business with the Isle of Man. So we will be here again in 2015. In the meantime, I am grateful to Mr Downie for the comments. Economic Development and Infrastructure will be working hand in glove on this, along with the Council of Ministers. The Chief Minister has been saying for the last two years, as many of us have been saying for years, we have got to break down the silos. It is not ‘us and them’. We have attended meetings with 4600 the Department of Infrastructure: they take the lead, but we put in our views and needs for the business community. So we are breaking down the silos. It is not operating in isolation: this is Government looking at the best interests of the people and the economy of the Isle of Man. The Committee, I believe, have done a very fair-minded Report. I am grateful for that, but please be reassured that everybody in Council of Ministers understands how important this is. It 4605 is not going to be swept under the carpet; it is not going to be ignored for the next 12 months. We are looking at contingencies – because who wouldn’t? – and so to imply that this is something that takes us by surprise I think underestimates just how much experience you have within Government and I think that is a disservice to many officers and politicians who have been here a long time – a lot longer than some of the critics. 4610 Mr Gawne and another Member: Hear, hear.
The President: The Hon. Mr Speaker.
4615 The Speaker: Thank you, Madam President. I rise as the Member who moved the original motion in November last year setting up the Committee, and would like to congratulate the Committee on the work they have done, the evidence they have assembled, the way they have analysed it, the conclusions they have reached, and the recommendations – most of which I agree with. 4620 The one I do have difficulty with is really to do with the principle of Open Skies policy and their recommendation that there be no immediate change in the current policy. This is not to say that I believe for one moment that any immediate change is going to deal with the present problems that overtook the Committee while it was doing its work, not in the least; but I think in the longer term I would hope that there would be a change in the current policy. In this respect, 4625 I align myself with the remarks made by the Hon. Member for Michael about the need for a degree of light touch regulation in this current situation, or in this longer-term situation. As I said in the original debate, in relation to commercial competition, we do not have an open seas policy because there is not room for more than one ferry operator to make money on the route to the Isle of Man. We do have an Open Skies policy and have had for 20 years, and it 4630 has been justified on the grounds that having airlines compete on the various routes for business is the best way to develop future air links, secure the lifeline services, and is in our overall best interest – and the Report certainly does make a case that that has come true. The public have welcomed open fares and I, like many, well remember the days when the cost of a return airfare to Heathrow, 27 years ago, was £240 – and that was all those years ago, and that 4635 was a lot of money then if you were taking a family on holiday. So yes, the whole landscape for aviation has changed for the better in terms of frequency and fares, but when those who claim that the benefits are short lived… I think I have to accept that is true. There are two particular pieces of evidence in the Report that struck me, and I know 4640 Mr Cannan quoted some evidence, but Capt. Quine, for example, in the Report said, and I quote:
‘… as is historically evident, when more than one carrier operates a route, the route becomes un-profitable to both. This ultimately forces one carrier to withdraw, and consequently should competition on routes continue…
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services to less profitable routes… become unsustainable leading to certain routes to and from the Isle of Man being discontinued.’
That is true; that is what has happened. The Steam Packet put it this way:
‘Over the past fifteen years there have been more than ten airlines operating in the North West market alone. In every instance of short-term increased competition, the Isle of Man market has proved incapable of supporting the extra service provision and consumer choice is subsequently reduced.’
I agree with that analysis. One has to ask, from where we are today, whether the… You know our national interest might have been better served by a light touch regulation or licensing 4645 regime, rather than the absolute free-market competition. Might it, for example, have allowed an existing operator on a particular route to invest in long-term developments free of another operator coming on that route to cherry-pick the peak times and passengers? I guess we will never know. These are debating points, I guess. But I find it hard to believe that a light touch regulator would have necessarily had the effect that Minister Shimmin has said – that BA, quote, 4650 ‘wouldn't be here without Open Skies’. I do not think there is necessarily evidence for that, that a light-regulation regime would have denied them to operate –
A Member: Of course it would.
4655 The Speaker: – and I am certainly not naive to believe that, as the Report makes quite clear, an airline like Flybe would be staying on the Gatwick or any other routes if only there was this light touch regime making it a sole operator. I accept that outside factors as such would have still come into play and been the decisive factor. So we are, to a degree, speculative, but I do not believe we should rule it out entirely and I 4660 think the fact is that we have reached a point where the statement in the CoMin response that Open Skies policy has served the Island admirably so far is now historic and academic. Equally, when the Report says:
‘“Open Skies” is (for the moment) still in the best interests of the Isle of Man in preserving and encouraging an adequate, frequent and long-term network of scheduled air services between the Island and major business and social destinations.’
this is not necessarily any longer true, because of the events that have rendered the Report, in the words of the mover, to some extent out of date. Open Skies as a policy depends on there being operators with the aircraft willing to fill those open skies, and if there are no competitors in the marketplace left to come in for the business, 4665 those open skies will stay just that: open, but empty. This is the reality of the position. Government's ability to conjure up business out of thin air is non-existent – the aviation industry will make its own commercial decisions – but whether having, in the past or in the future, an element of regulation on so-called ‘lifeline routes’ in defiance of the marketplace is surely worth exploring, and that itself is a variation on unfettered Open Skies. The Council of 4670 Ministers’ report itself, in relation to the recommendation, talks about the charging regimes at Ronaldsway Airport and the frequency discount. This is affecting, impinging on the open free aviation market to an extent. So I think the point has been conceded to a degree: unfettered open skies – everyone piling in, the law of the jungle, routes come and go – fine, if there are operators to ensure routes come 4675 and go. Government has no option now, in this changed climate, but to engage with degrees of incentive. That is why recommendation (3)… and most people have said they are going to accept the Report, but the logic of what I have just said, despite the headshaking… For those who are going to accept the Report, you are accepting recommendation (3):
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‘We recommend that the Government: (a) Prepare a contingency plan to maintain a licensing regime, whether a light touch regime or otherwise, against the day when commercial realities demand this;’
4680 Well, that day has come; that day is here.
‘(b) Consider amending the charging system at Ronaldsway to allow “Open Skies” and competition to continue, but to safeguard the position of particular routes and flight timings;’
A very sensible recommendation and one Government has positively responded to. In doing so, you have accepted that the principle of Open Skies with no regulation whatsoever is no longer appropriate. The news, of course, of British Airways back to three times daily is welcome news and we 4685 look forward to the details of that. British Airways had three flights daily until September, when they cut back just to one off peak, and there is no doubt that the potential loss of day-return flights to London, which would have been the case with Flybe, in a very welcome manner seems to have been addressed. What remains, of course, with the decision of Flybe is the loss of important international 4690 flight connections and I am not clear if that has been fully assessed in terms of impact on tourism, on the Island's economy, the effect on commercial links. EasyJet, of course, promised day-return flights to London, yet the earliest arrival time at Gatwick next summer will be at 11.55 on three days of the week and 12.50 on two days of the week; and the return flight from Gatwick will be 16.20. So, under that regime, of course, with 4695 train connections and check-in times, absolutely impossible to have a day-return trip to central London – and very welcome that BA… if they have addressed that. Also, the withdrawal of the early-morning flight to Gatwick by Flybe will not just have affected business day passengers, but of course with the arrival at 8.20 it actually, I understand, connected to 40 flights and 34 unique destinations within two hours – and all of those 4700 connections will be lost in summer 2014 with an easyJet arrival time at Gatwick of 11.55 on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and 12.50 on Tuesday and Thursday. Then, of course, they made the announcement that they were withdrawing their only Saturday flight from nine weeks of the peak summer; so there will be no flights to Gatwick for the 48-hour period between Friday evening at 18.05 and Sunday evening at 18.05 from 12th July to 6th September. 4705 Of course, while this is going on, for the two peak summer months we will note that there will be four daily flights from Gatwick to Guernsey on Saturdays throughout the summer with the Aurigny service, and of course that has been referred to. My understanding is, and perhaps I can be corrected but the losses made by Aurigny, I understand, are in relation to the loss-making service between Guernsey and Alderney, and not by operating to Gatwick; so I think that is 4710 something that needs to be further examined by Government. The guaranteed flights that exist, of course, between Guernsey and Gatwick – which, in the case of the Isle of Man, are dropping from 32 in summer 2013 to only 12 in the summer of 2014 – will continue at Gatwick, and the first flight from Guernsey to Gatwick will certainly arrive earlier than the Isle of Man Flybe service. The people of Guernsey, we are told, are up in arms 4715 about the denial of easyJet because of the closed routes. It is a matter for them how closed they choose to make these routes, but the undeniable fact is that they have guaranteed links to Gatwick crucial for their economy I would also make the point that Government has to – as I am fully aware it is – look carefully at the impact of the Flybe decisions whereby Manchester be retained as a key hub, but not 4720 Liverpool itself. Of course, that will potentially have a very serious effect on what for us remains a key route if Flybe withdraw in the circumstances described by Mr Downie with Liverpool Airport being devoted increasingly to easyJet and Ryanair. Therefore, there must be some concern. If we are concerned about monopoly routes, there will certainly be concern on this
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monopoly route in terms of pricing policies and particularly in respect of the Health Service 4725 contract, which must remain a great worry. As has been said by the Hon. Member of Council, the Isle of Man is not alone in this situation: regional airports in the United Kingdom; great concern in Inverness and Aberdeen; the impact on Gatwick flights; concerted action taking place by the Scottish government. I would like to see us, since it is a transnational problem, act more effectively or more demonstrably at national 4730 government level to see what influence collectively we can bring on airlines, but I do not underestimate the difficulties. As for the way forward, as far as this debate is concerned, as has been pointed out, the role of our Tynwald Scrutiny Committee is to scrutinise and review Government policy. I think it would be a mistake to put this matter back to the Economic Affairs Committee, where it will be 4735 many months, probably another 12 months, before they come back to report. There is instead a need for Government to formulate or articulate its policy in a more open manner, and that would be the route I would recommend. Thank you, Madam President.
4740 The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. I would like to concur with the remarks of Mr Speaker, who has just resumed his seat, and I would also like to say that everybody in this Court obviously fears Open Skies and is doing 4745 everything… Sorry, it fears empty skies and is doing everything necessary to make sure we do not ever have empty skies. I would just like to make three points additional to, I think, those that have been stated. The first point is that I think we have got into the habit of privatising our aviation policy a bit too much, and this Report provides evidence of that. Basically, this Report said there is no 4750 alternative. The Report says that the options for the Government to influence off-Island airports are limited. It says that it is clearly not the case that the Isle of Man Government has no control over the organisation of flights to and from the Island. I want to try to move beyond that. That is my first point: to say we have to… and that is Government – Government has to create a situation in which everyone and anyone can provide flights to our Island on terms that serve our 4755 needs, and it is for us to make sure we go about putting together a policy where that is clear to everyone to come to our Island. Already, I can think of five ways that we can achieve that. The first one is we can have a licensing regime, as Mr Speaker has explained. The second one is we do have APT user fees, the Hospital contract – like various people have alluded to – to use in redressing that power balance between the private sector and 4760 Government. The third one – and the point was well made by the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Downie – is we can escalate to the British-Irish Council, and we have to be part of that positive process to make sure the balance between the public policy and the private interests are balanced. The fourth one is that we do have a wonderful private sector in the Isle of Man, because I 4765 hear that not only has Government been playing its role but a consortium of private interests has actually been negotiating with British Airways to achieve the excellent result we have heard today, and before that with Flybe; and we do have e-gaming companies and many other companies that need a good aviation sector, and that is part of the game – that we should be including them in our game and giving them the credit for that. 4770 So that is my first point. My first point is we can no longer have an entirely privatised aviation policy. My second point is that there is a bit of exaggeration about the difficulty of putting in place a licensing regime. In this Report, it is stated that the regulation is counter to most of the practice in Europe. That might be true if you are in Frankfurt, if you are in Paris, if you are in London; but 4775 it is not necessarily true when it comes to serving some island communities in Europe any more ______515 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
than it is true in the Caribbean or in the Pacific islands. This Island already has an embryonic licensing body in the Road Traffic Licensing Committee that has gone through these issues in one sector in one sense.
4780 A Member: Which should be abolished.
Mr Thomas: We have a lengthy experience of the linkspan User Agreement, and basically, as the Director of Ports has told us recently, ships and planes are very similar, and I am sure there is something that we can get out of taxis and buses and ships and planes. 4785 My feeling – the second point I am making – is that regulation and the difficulties of putting in place the legislation and the regulations and the procedures and the resources has been exaggerated during this debate. My third point is that I have a frustration – which I think the Committee share – with the Report that they have produced, and I just wanted to give some examples of why I am frustrated 4790 about it. When you finished reading the Report – at least when I finished reading the Report, I was not exactly sure what an adequate, frequent and long-term network of scheduled air services operating for the Island would look like, and to me that is something that I would like to have known about. 4795 It is true that experts were invited, but can we say that we actually did systematic research into public views and we examined all of the evidence and came to the conclusions validly from what the evidence was there? Was there not a tendency to defend the status quo and actually to recommend carrying on doing things on an ad hoc basis because of a predisposition towards Open Skies? 4800 Another point is that at the end of reading this Report we do not actually know what the value added is by having our existing airline service – or even an Island-based airline. We do not know what the value is of having lots of local people working in aviation, and so therefore we cannot compare that to the cost to the Government, or to the private sector or whomever, of actually maintaining a crew base in the Island and having the services that we have got used to 4805 having. So, to my mind, it is frustrating that we do not actually have this impact assessment elucidated in this Report. I accept that policy review committees review implemented policy, but to review implemented policy you do have to look forward: how will the business and the operating models of airlines and airports that matter to the Island look in the future? I do not see enough 4810 of that in the Report. What can happen and what will happen to APT, to follow on the point that the Hon. Member for Council, Mr Turner made? Scotland, Wales and English regions are all playing around with APT: is that possible? And so on. That is not analysed in the Report. What types of planes will be used in coming decades, and how would their operation relate to the capacity of our Airport, and the existing talents of the Island’s local workforce? I heard that this 4815 morning a plane was cancelled at our local national airport, which might not have been cancelled if there had been local crew serving it. These sorts of things need to be analysed as you review implemented policy. Obviously, Flybe and easyJet and the airlines would say that Open Skies was possible, but was that not part of their argument with Guernsey? I perceive that the majority of the people who 4820 submitted evidence did come to a different conclusion, or would have come to a different conclusion if presented with the same facts. The Committee did not canvass with witnesses… I am quoting from the Report now:
‘We did not canvass with witnesses the possibility of establishing a franchise-based airline which could be operated by airline companies for the Island’s Government using leased aircraft…’
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Wet leases, moist leases, dry leases, airline operating certificates and all that sort of thing. I know it was a huge amount of work the Committee already had, but last week… I did not 4825 mention it last week in the debate, in my positive contribution to the negotiations led so admirably by my colleague from West Douglas, but last week it was already evident that the twice-daily Flybe link from Cornwall to London, which was to have been axed, was not going to be axed because Flybe went to the slots conference and regained some slots to continue with that service. 4830 All in all, I am minded to actually vote for the amendment, but even more profoundly important than that is that I concur with the Speaker’s remarks that we have already established that this is an immediate issue and that the policy of Open Skies has already been compromised by some of the recommendations in this Report. Thank you. 4835 The President: The mover to reply.
Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President. I will try and be as brief as possible and just pick up a few points. 4840 I thank Mr Butt for seconding. I have to repeat to Mr Karran, who says he would like a fresh examination, we can only say what we found. I repeat: we are not here to create policies. If Mr Karran has good ideas, then he needs to refer them to the Department involved. Mr Karran implied maybe that he thought perhaps we should massage the results. Of course not. 4845 Yes, the Minister is right: I used to be, in the past, a few years ago, when I felt it was right, pro –
Mr Karran: I did not say I wanted you to massage anything. It is just blackening my name.
4850 Mr Singer: No, no, no. I was pro-licensing, but we started from a neutral position here. We looked at the facts and we actually said what we found, and that is what I hope that Tynwald would hope that we would do. We received over 30 pieces of evidence. We had several open sessions. Every piece of evidence was taken seriously. If we were to sit again I do not think we would receive any new 4855 evidence. We would get the same people, the same views. I thank Mr Cannan for his comments. Certainly I think some of his comments should be considered by Government. Mr Henderson was backing Mr Karran's proposal to refer it back to the Committee. We are not there to develop policy. I am sure most people agree that it is up to Government to do that, 4860 but the world –
Mr Henderson: Only to review the new bit. (Mr Singer: Sorry?) Only to review the new bit.
Mr Singer: The world has dramatically changed. The airline business, we realised during our 4865 deliberations, is very different to what it was a few years ago. (A Member: Absolutely.) Mrs Beecroft said that we just recommended the status quo. We are critical of the Departments. I hope they will not think, ‘Well, the Report says Open Skies should remain: we can sit back now.’ I think they should be prepared, and the Committee said they should be prepared for when circumstances change. 4870 Mrs Beecroft also said we need a new airline based here. That sounds very good, doesn’t it? We did not come across, in our deliberations, any airline that was willing to do that. DoI and DED I am sure would snap the airline’s hand off if they said, ‘We want to come to the Isle of Man,’ and if they said they wanted to be based here that would be fantastic.
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The Department did say they will wait until 2015 to review, and I have given the Committee's 4875 views on that. We think they should be looking at it and have something in, almost on the shelf, if circumstances allow – if circumstances come to such a way that yes, things are that much better. If it is on the shelf, it is there to be taken off when necessary. I thank Mr Turner for his factual comment. I think he was the first person who has spoken… Oh, no… 4880 Can I thank the Minister, Mr Cretney – my Minister, (A Member: Ooh!) (Mr Henderson: Yes.) with whom I must say that I did not discuss anything. I have not discussed anything in the Department to do with airlines since I have been on the Department. Maybe after today I can put in a few comments. I am sure we are all pleased to hear what he said about the new British Airways proposals. It 4885 was convenient, wasn’t it, that it just happened today so you could announce it? If you had told me earlier, I would have cut half my speech out!
Mr Cretney: But we don’t talk about it!
4890 Mr Singer: Mr Turner has seen the reality of what is actually happening. The Committee cannot just continue its investigations. We have made our comments, we have made some recommendations: the boot now is on both Departments’ feet, as you might say – it is up to them now to solve the problem. Mr Downie and Mr Shimmin were talking about – quite right – it is a much bigger problem; it 4895 is not just the Isle of Man. There are many other parts of the United Kingdom affected by the uncertainty in the airline industry, and this maybe does have to be dealt with in a larger forum. Mr Speaker did admit that all this was his fault: he referred it to the Committee. Again, you do not have an immediate change of policy just for the sake of it. It depends how you interpret ‘light touch regulation’, and to a certain extent it is now in place. As I mentioned, the DoI are 4900 looking at their charging policy in order to make it easier for airlines and maybe more profitable for airlines to work from the Island – that is light touch regulation, and no doubt they will continue looking at that. Mr Speaker also talked about, yes, there used to competition on the routes in the past – and it is true, when there has been more than one competitor on a route one has left the route. The 4905 difference now is that there are basically no small regional airlines to replace the one that has just gone. This used to happen in the past: one went and another one tended to come in. But I feel now that we have larger airlines, they are ruled by loadings, they are ruled by their shareholders, they are pressurised to be on routes where they are making the greatest profits – and that is something that is factual. 4910 From Mr Thomas's comments I thought to myself, ‘Well, he does not quite understand the airline business.’ The large airlines said quite clearly to us that they were not interested in a licensing regime, so bringing in a licensing regime is certainly not going to attract them to come here. We have – I have, as I say – no tendency to defend Open Skies. We were reviewing the policy. 4915 All the points that were made by Mr Thomas again are not for our Committee; they are for the Government to review. We are certainly not going to get the UK to support us like they have supported the Newquay route. In fact, I do not think it has actually been approved yet, but they are certainly not going to come and give us large amounts of money. They will not give money to the Isle of Man. 4920 All I would say to Members is please accept the recommendations. We have found things as they were at the time we looked. We believe we have made some reasonable recommendations; some have already been implemented. I believe that accepting the amendment just leaves us nowhere; it will not get us anywhere. So I ask Members to reject the amendment and to vote for the motion on the Order Paper. 4925 Thank you, Madam President. ______518 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 6 on your Order Papers, and to that we have an amendment in the name of the Hon. Member, Mr Karran. I will put to you the amendment first. The motion is that the amendment be agreed. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. (Mr Karran: Divide!) I have not yet said that the noes have it, 4930 but the noes have it and the Member has called for a division.
Electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 3, Noes 21
FOR AGAINST Mr Karran Mr Quirk Mr Henderson Mr Hall Mrs Beecroft Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Bell Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Teare Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton Mrs Cannell Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Thomas Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne Mr Speaker
The Speaker: Madame President, in the Keys 3 votes for, 21 against.
In the Council – Ayes 0, Noes 8
FOR AGAINST None Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman
The President: In the Council, no votes for and 8 against. The amendment therefore fails to carry. 4935 I now put to you the motion as printed, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. (Mr Karran: Against.) (Laughter) The ayes have it. The ayes have it. (Mr Karran: Divide!) Too late, Hon. Member. (A Member: Too late.) The motion therefore carries.
______519 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
7. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee: The Provision of Breast Care – First Report received
The Caairliagh of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee (Mrs Cannell) to move:
That the First Report of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee for the Session 2013-14: The Provision of Breast Care [PP No 0159/13] be received. 4940 The President: I call on the Hon. Member Mrs Cannell.
The Caairliagh of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee (Mrs Cannell): Thank you, Madam President. 4945 Those Members who were in this hon. place prior to the last General Election in 2011 will recall a very long debate, lasting some four hours, over the issue of the consultant for breastcare – or, at the time, the locum consultant for breastcare. That was on 21st June 2011. Following that particular debate, and before we voted, the motion, which read:
‘That Tynwald is of the opinion that a dedicated consultant breast care surgeon should be appointed rather than a general surgeon with an interest in breast.’
was amended. The amendment carried, and it read:
‘That Tynwald supports the Department of Health ensuring that the Breast Care Service is maintained and enhanced to ensure that there is no diminution in the present level of service provided within the Island, and supports the Department continuing to provide a dedicated breast care service led by a surgeon specialising in breast surgery, thereby securing the service provided to patients and refers the matter of the provision for breast care to the Social Affairs Committee, with an instruction that it report on this matter at the earliest opportunity to ensure that the Department has maintained and enhanced the provision of the breast care service and complied with the Minister’s public commitments’.
At that time, of course, we did not have the Scrutiny Committees established, but the 4950 principle of setting up the Scrutiny Committees had been approved. They were established post the General Election of 2011, and this particular group of Members were first elected to this Committee in November 2011, after the General Election. Before I move the Report, Madam President, I think it pertinent to thank our Clerk, Mr King, for ably assisting us throughout this investigation and all of the work of this particular 4955 Committee; also to the Speaker, Mr Rodan, who has been constant, together with me, since we were appointed; also the former Member of the Legislative Council, Mr David Callister, who has now retired, gave in a lot of work, and in terms of this investigation had a great interest in it; also to the Member of the Legislative Council, Mr Turner, who did his turn on this Committee before being appointed to the Department of Education, thereby creating a conflict; and also 4960 now, of course, to the Member of the Legislative Council, Mr Crowe, who is currently present on this Committee. In this Report, we consider whether services in general have been enhanced and whether the three phases which were identified by the Minister during debate have been delivered. At the back of the Report you will see some evidence: a cross-examination of the Chief Executive and 4965 the Minister – the Hon. Member for Glenfaba, Mr Anderson, who was then Health Minister and is still Health Minister – is inserted at the back. I have to say, Madam President, at the time there was a lot of concern – a lot of very concerned patients, past and present cancer patients, who filled that public gallery in June 2011 – and when we looked into the reasons why they should be so concerned, we began to 4970 appreciate just why. We put in, on page 2, the context of breast cancer in the Isle of Man, and Members might be interested in having a look at that, in that we have been provided with figures that an estimate of over 4,000 women and around 30 men in the Isle of Man will suffer
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some form of breast cancer during their lifetime here. Those figures are quite significant. We then go on to give you the list of positive breast cancers since April 2009. 4975 At the time of the debate on 21st June 2011, breastcare was being provided by a locum consultant, Miss Hamo. She ceased employment at Noble's Hospital on 15th July 2011, just one month after the debate. The current permanent appointee, Miss Bello, took up post on 1st February 2012, and during the interim period between Miss Hamo's departure and Miss Bello’s arrival, locum surgeons specialising in breast surgery were continuously employed. 4980 When we took evidence from the Department in February 2012, they said that the service had been enhanced by the appointment of Miss Bello, and the Committee – and I feel sure every breast cancer patient in the Isle of Man – were absolutely delighted when the Department recruited and appointed Miss Bello, an oncoplastic surgeon of the highest repute. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) Certainly her expertise is equivalent to that of Miss Hamo, who was also 4985 very popular with her patients. The Department said that the appointment of a permanent consultant radiologist with a special interest in breast to replace a series of locum radiologists employed after the departure of the previous post-holder… so that was one improvement, which we did not actually call for in the debate, but the Department gave it. 4990 The appointment of a second consultant histopathologist with an interest in breast disease… was due to commence work on 1st March 2012, and we understand that that has now taken place; and there was an increase in the Hospital middle grade doctor support for the breast service with the allocation of a full-time associate specialist and a speciality doctor to the breast team. 4995 There was an increase in out-patient clinic capacity, resulting in reduced waiting times for urgent and non-urgent breast referrals and an increase in the number of theatre sessions and the availability of an all-day theatre list to allow complex breast surgery and reconstructions to take place on the Island. Suffice to say, therefore, that the three areas that the debate called for attention for – one 5000 was the appointment of a dedicated breast surgeon; someone who could do oncoplastic breast surgery so that patients did not have to wait for a deferred breast reconstruction following mastectomy; and also to carry on sentinel node biopsy testing on the Isle of Man, which currently was not available at that time – all of those three areas have been covered. The team has been enhanced in order to give a strong backup to the breast surgeon. 5005 Our Report is short, in terms of what we have discovered in our findings. We have delayed a little while, because one of the general surgery surgeons left – and Members who were here, present in 2011, will recall that one of the public concerns at the time was that any new post for breast surgery would also be expected to do on-call general medical emergencies and become one in four of a team of four general surgeons. The public, at the time, felt that might detract 5010 from the coverage for breast surgery if that person was to be called away on a fairly regular basis; so, of course, when we heard that one of the general surgeons had left, whereby we reverted to the position of only having three general surgeons, which was the position prior to the debate in 2011, we hesitated before reporting. We followed it up and we are delighted that the Department appointed Mr Stock, who has proved to be a very good general surgeon and 5015 very popular with the people of the Isle of Man. On page 7, we have said that the sentinel node biopsy service… We conclude that the Department has delivered the second phase of its plan. The first, of course, was the engagement of a dedicated breast surgeon. We also conclude that the Department has delivered the third phase of its plan, and that is 5020 the introduction of breast reconstruction service on Island, which is a huge step forward. We have consolidated our list of conclusions. Members will note that we do not make any recommendations, because we are quite satisfied in the Scrutiny Committee of Social Affairs that all the requirements that were called for have been met, and indeed the Health Minister, the Hon. Member, Mr Anderson, has kept his word. (Mr Quirk: Hear, hear.) I know he has been ______521 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
5025 waiting some time for me to get on my feet to say this, and I did say to him, ‘It will come; it will come.’ Just to close, I would like to thank my Committee members, I thank the Court for its support back in June 2011, and also just to say that it is thought-provoking… if you look on page 9 at the pie chart of the incidence of cancer, you will find that 35% of cancer in the Isle of Man is down to 5030 breast cancer. I beg to move.
The President: The Hon. Mr Speaker.
5035 The Speaker: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.
The President: The Hon. Mr Anderson.
The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Yes, Madam President. 5040 I think it would be remiss if I did not take this opportunity to put on record particular thanks to what has been achieved by the Hospital management, within very difficult and challenging financial resources, to put in place exactly what they said they would put place in 2011 – and to have done it within the timescale (A Member: Hear, hear.) that was laid out at that particular time. As the hon. mover has just said, those three steps have been put in place – have been in 5045 place for some time – and indeed we are very fortunate to have a first-class consultant leading an enhanced breastcare service. That has certainly given a great deal of confidence to the population that have breastcare issues on the Island. I am delighted to say that the organisation that was set up to raise concerns in 2011 has seen the benefit of the Department's plan and is now getting behind the Department to help raise 5050 money to enhance breast services by having a dedicated area within Noble's Hospital. So we are very fortunate to have such an experienced consultant who is passionate about the job she is doing, but we have to remember that the Hospital management was under tremendous pressure in 2011 to change its plans. We stuck to the plans that they put forward and they have recruited an excellent person in Miss Bello. They have also made other 5055 appointments that the hon. mover has alluded to in her remarks, and we are very fortunate to have such a dedicated team working in Noble's Hospital. I would just like to put on record my thanks to the Hospital management for putting down a plan that was subject to a lot of scrutiny at the time – but people now can see it was for the best. 5060 Two Members: Hear, hear.
The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Braidwood.
5065 Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Madam President. I would like to agree with all the conclusions which have been drawn by the Committee, but the report also endorses the actions which were taken by the Minister for Health, Mr Anderson, (A Member: Correct.) in resisting the intense pressure (A Member: Correct.) from some Members of this Hon. Court and certain lobbying groups to change the position of Miss Hamo 5070 and for him to advertise for a consultant surgeon who specialised in breastcare, which, as has already been said, has enhanced the whole process on breastcare. If we look at the Minister's public commitments during that debate in June 2011:
‘Services will be enhanced, not downgraded… the breastcare service available on the Island will not only be as good as it is now under the current locum… but the post will be enhanced as follows… The first phase is to appoint a dedicated breastcare surgeon to the post; phase 2 is then to introduce a sentinel node biopsy service; and phase 3 is to offer on-Island breast reconstruction.’ ______522 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
everything the Department promised has come to fruition and the Minister should be congratulated.
Mr Corkish and another Member: Hear, hear. 5075 Mr Teare and another Member: Vote!
The President: The Caairliagh to reply.
5080 Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. I thank the Minister for his comments and also for the expressed opinion of the Hon. Member of the Legislative Council, Mr Braidwood. Just to follow on, yes, the management have done very well in order to deliver this for the people, and also to support their Health Minister at the time. 5085 The Minister said that the people who made the noise in the first instance are now behind… I think the only way I can describe that is that it has been the birth of a charity, because what started out as a group – a growing, ever-increasing group of breast cancer patients, past and present, who adored the previous incumbent, Miss Hamo – absolutely adored that breast surgeon – who filled the public gallery, who started the campaign, who ran with the petition and 5090 presented it to the Hon. Minister, Mr Anderson, outside these fine walls… eventually, I managed to harness… And I will lay claim – I am going to claim this, because I managed to claim this as a personal thing, Madam President. I managed to harness all that energy, that passion, that life in those people to help them to form a proper charity so that they could support what it was that they wanted to see to be delivered forever and a day. That was the only way to do it – to not 5095 work against all the time, but to work with – and they are now working with the Department of Health, and I am proud that they have achieved that, and that I, in some small way, assisted that. I am also further delighted that Tynwald Court appointed myself and Mr Speaker, and all the former Members of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee, when they did, because it did 5100 enable me. It provided me with an essential tool to be able to keep the promise that was delivered to Tynwald, and that Tynwald approved the motion, amended, to overlook the delivery – and that is what I have been privileged to do. I am very honoured to move the Report and to thank the Minister for all his co-operation, support and for delivering what the people wanted. 5105 Thank you.
The President: The motion is set out at Item 7, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
8. Appointments Commission – Mrs Judith Watson appointed
The Chief Minister to move:
That in accordance with the Tribunals Act 2006, it be approved that the Council of Ministers shall appoint Mrs Judith Watson to the Appointments Commission for a term of five years ending 1st January 2019.
The President: Item 8. The Chief Minister to move. 5110 ______523 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, the Council of Ministers is pleased to nominate Mrs Judith Watson for appointment as a member of the Appointments Commission, for a term of five years ending on 1st January 2019. Mrs Watson has demonstrated a clear understanding of the principles required for a public 5115 appointment. Mrs Watson is a Chartered Member of the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development and has had equal opportunities and employment legislation training. Mrs Watson also has significant experience of recruitment and selection within the finance sector. The Tribunals Act provides for one member of the Appointments Commission to retire by rotation each year on 1st January. This basis for appointments allows the Commission to 5120 maintain continuity of expertise in its membership and facilitate the uninterrupted exercise of its functions. It is proposed that Mrs Watson joins the four existing members of the Appointments Commission: Mr Peter Corkhill, Ms Jane O’Rourke, Mr Tim Craig and Mrs Helen Booth. Mr Francis Masserick is the outgoing member of the Appointments Commission, and I, on behalf 5125 of the Council of Ministers, would like to thank him for his significant and valuable contribution to the Appointments Commission since its establishment in 2006. Madam President, I beg to move.
Mr Quirk and another Member: I beg to second. 5130 The President: The motion is set out at Item 8, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
9. European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 – European Union (Iran Sanctions) (Proliferation) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2013 approved
The Chief Minister to move:
That the European Union (Iran Sanctions) (Proliferation) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0408/13]
The President: Item 9. The Chief Minister to move.
5135 The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, this Order concerns the application to the Island of minor amendments to an EU regulation concerning Iran that has previously been applied with the approval of this Hon. Court. The amendments covered in this Order clarify the definitions of ‘natural or legal persons’, the ‘Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps’, and ‘Iran Shipping Lines’. 5140 Hon. Members may be aware of the interim agreement on Iranian nuclear activities that was recently agreed in Geneva. Should the EU move to lift certain sanctions as a result of this agreement between the government of Iran and the permanent members of the UN Security Council, supported by the European Union, then an order to implement those changes will be brought to Tynwald. 5145 Madam President, I beg to move.
Mr Watterson: I beg to second, Madam President
The President: The motion is set out at Item 9. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. 5150 The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
______524 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
10. Town and Country Planning Act 1999 – Town and Country Planning Act 1999 (Extension to the Territorial Seas) (No. 2) Regulations 2013 approved
The Minister for Infrastructure to move:
That the Town and Country Planning Act 1999 (Extension to the Territorial Seas) (No. 2) Regulations 2013 be approved. [SD No 0410/13]
The President: Item 10. Minister for Infrastructure.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you. 5155 The territorial sea accounts for 87% of the total area of the Isle of Man, approximately 4,000 km2. It possesses natural resources in abundance. Any future developments in our marine environment will have economic, environmental and social impacts on our territorial sea. If we are to be able to use these resources in a sustainable way, these natural resources must be managed sensitively to ensure that we maintain the unique maritime environment of the Isle of 5160 Man. In order to balance the benefit of using these resources with the protection of the territorial sea, we need to have an effective planning system in place. ‘Agenda for Change’ lists an objective to produce a marine spatial plan to guide appropriate future commercial use of our territorial seas. 5165 These Regulations allow us to achieve this objective by allowing the powers in the primary Act, the Town and Country Planning Act 1999, to be extended, with modifications, to the territorial sea. The key features of the Regulations are to establish a system for determining planning applications for development in the territorial sea and having a marine development plan which 5170 sets out planning policy for the territorial sea. In addition, and because the Department of Infrastructure is the owner of the seabed, these Regulations provide that all applications for planning approval for marine development within the territorial sea will be determined by the Council of Ministers following receipt of a report by the appointed planning inspector. 5175 Finally, and importantly, the new legislation will also allow additional secondary legislation to be progressed so the Department can ensure that development within the territorial sea cannot take place unless proper safeguards are in place. The Regulations have been developed after a public consultation exercise in September 2012 that generated 17 responses. This consultation covered a variety of issues including, for 5180 example, the legislative process, the extent of the marine consenting area, the definition of marine developments, permitted development, consultation, environmental impact assessment, and fees. The principal amendments from the Act are summarised as follows. The Regulations provide a new definition of ‘seabed’ and for the consequential substitution 5185 of all references in the Act to ‘land’ with ‘seabed’. The context of the Act’s meaning of ‘development’ is amended accordingly to reflect the territorial sea. The Regulations subsequently define new types of ‘permitted development’ operations which include, for example, fishing and repairs to existing submarine cables and pipelines. 5190 The Regulations provide that any references within the Act which are not relevant to the territorial sea, such as conservation areas and registered buildings, are omitted. The method of determining applications for marine development is by Council of Ministers following receipt of a report by the appointed planning inspector.
______525 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The Regulations remove the provision to make a planning appeal in the event that an 5195 application is refused – a petition of doleance being the route of challenge. The Department now asks Tynwald to approve these Regulations under sections 44(1) and 47(2) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1999. I beg to move the motion standing in my name.
5200 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Skelly.
Mr Skelly: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Thomas 5205 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. Just two questions for the Minister. The first one is in what way could people be involved in an individual application? By ‘people’ I mean civic society groups, people in the marine bed who would be like local authorities who would be an interested party. Just how could they be 5210 involved? The second question is do I understand correctly that a successful application can be appealed; it is just a refusal cannot be appealed by the applicant?
The President: The Hon. Mr Speaker 5215 The Speaker: Madam President, really I would just like to warmly welcome this particular measure. It is more than what it might just appear on paper to be – an academic exercise; it is actually a very critical first phase of developing a marine development plan that will recognise the Isle of Man as at a key crossroads within the Irish Sea, (A Member: Hear, hear.) and make 5220 our seabed available for sensible and acceptable commercial development, whether that be subsea cables, or as an interconnector hub between Ireland and Britain – and Europe, indeed. This all ties in with the policy that is happening around the British Isles as a whole and the legislative changes that are being brought in at Westminster to allow export of green energy across boundaries. 5225 The Isle of Man is geographically very well placed to take advantage of this, and of course to lease the seabed. We hear a lot about offshore wind farm development, not least in the Irish Sea. We have certainly the potential to take advantage of those developments where it is in our interest, thanks to this particular Regulation. So I just wanted to highlight that is the context within which it is made and to support the 5230 Department for bringing it forward.
The President: The Hon. Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just like to ask the Minister… I have had representations that 5235 one of the dangers is that the only way that anyone can actually put any objection to this Order would be through the courts system, and obviously that would mean the only way that people can take account of any input is that they would have to be quite wealthy to be able to go as far as a petition of doleance. Is that the case, or is that wrong; and can the Hon. Member clarify that position at the present time? 5240 The President: The mover to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. In relation to Mr Speaker, if I can start off with his comments, I thank him very much for his 5245 supportive comments. I do agree with him that this is a very important matter, in terms of its ______526 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
part in the ongoing development of the economy of the Isle of Man, (Mr Corkish: Hear, hear.) and I think it is vital that alongside that goes the protection of those important parts which are made up in the territorial seas as well. So there is a balance, as with all things, but this will definitely be something which is important, in terms of the ongoing development of the 5250 economy – and I thank him for his comments. In relation to Mr Thomas, the situation is that, in terms of input, the planning applications will be advertised in the same way as planning applications on land, and anyone can make written representations and follow up. Secondary legislation, as I referred in the initial comments, will set out the details. There is no planning appeal process; however, all applications 5255 will be considered by an independent planning inspector, who will then make his report to the Council of Ministers. In relation to Mr Karran, the input from members of the public again is not just via petition of doleance: anybody can comment on the planning applications, and those will obviously be considered by the planning appeals inspector who is appointed to look at such matters, and then 5260 his report will go to the Council of Ministers. I hope that assists, and I beg to move.
The President: The motion stands at Item 10 on your Order Papers. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
11. Licensing and Registration of Vehicles Act 1985 – Vehicle Duty Order 2013 approved
The Minister for Infrastructure to move:
That the Vehicle Duty Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0382/13] 5265 The President: Item 11. I call on the Minister for Infrastructure to move.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you. From something novel to something hardy annual, which I expect will not be such a – 5270 Mr Downie: I’m ready for you! (Laughter)
The Minister: – smooth ride.
5275 Mr Turner: We’re ready!
Mr Crowe: You will be disappointed.
The Minister: I’m ready for you! (Laughter) 5280 The Vehicle Duty Orders provide income stream in support of the important matter of road maintenance. Good standards of road maintenance are essential to support growth of the economy and ensure that both residents and visitors to our Island can travel safely and efficiently. Although Government is faced with significant financial challenges, securing sufficient funding for essential infrastructure remains a priority. 5285 Whilst the Department understands that vehicle operating costs are continuing to increase when general standards of living are not, I am sure that Hon. Members will understand that many highways need to be repaired. Therefore, it is essential that the income generated from
______527 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
this duty continues to maintain its level, and a general increase of 5% is proposed to reflect inflation and to help offset the continuing reduction in vehicle numbers. 5290 Within the current tariffs, a £5 precept is levied on all rates of duty to enable funding for road safety initiatives. An additional £1 increase on all tariffs is proposed to assist with these measures. This represents a sure investment, as the human, social and economic costs of accidents massively outweigh the costs of accident reduction. The veteran duty rates for vehicles manufactured before 1st January 1987 will continue. In 5295 response to the concerns of classic vehicle clubs and owners, it is also proposed to introduce a historic duty rate, which will reinstate the 25-year rolling rule for vehicles manufactured after 1st January 1987, with these vehicles paying 50% of the existing rate. An increase in income from increasing the veteran rate from £12 to £15 will approximately offset the cost of the re- introduction of the 25-year rolling rule through the proposed historic rate. 5300 These proposals are predicted to generate steady income of £12,307,580 in 2014-15. This figure is similar to preceding years in view of the overall reduction in vehicle numbers. In order to assist heavy goods vehicle operators, the incentive introduced two years ago which allows a discount of 25% and 50% of duty for vehicles designed to Euro 4 and Euro 5 standards respectively will be continued. 5305 I beg to move the motion standing in my name.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Singer.
Mr Singer: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. 5310 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Downie.
Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President. The Minister will be pleased to hear I will be supporting the measure that is before us today, 5315 but I just want to put a marker down because I know we need to find some more money, and I know a lot of this is road-safety related, but I think it is about time we found another way perhaps to save some money and not try to look at generating income. Perhaps we should be stopping buying poles and road signs and obliterating the Manx countryside, because there is no doubt about it, the biggest growth industry in the Isle of Man in the last few years has been 5320 signage around the place. Having got that off my chest, the proposed fees provide for a general increase in duty of 5% to reflect an inflationary increase and to account for the downturn of vehicles being registered. The reason for the downturn is because we are pricing ourselves out of the marketplace. There has been a 6.3% decrease in vehicles being licensed in the period 2011-12 and 2012-13, and an 5325 overall decrease of 10% since 2010. I am just going to leave you, very briefly, with a short lesson in economics. It is referred to as the Laffer curve, and you should pay attention to this. In economics, the Laffer curve is a representation of the relationship between the possible rates of taxation and the resulting levels of government revenue. It illustrates the concept of taxable income elasticity, i.e. taxable 5330 income will change in response to changes in the rate of taxation. It postulates that no tax revenue will be raised at the extreme tax rates of 0% and 100% and that there must be at least one rate where tax revenue would be a non-zero maximum. In essence, one potential result of the Laffer curve is that the increasing tax rates beyond a certain point will be counterproductive for raising further tax revenues, and I honestly think that is what is starting to happen now. We 5335 are having a negative effect – fewer cars on the road, more people opting to get rid of the second or third car, contraction, less fuel duty, and so on. So let’s try and temper this by looking somewhere else to make a little bit of saving. I will go ahead with it this year, because I know the constraints the Department is under, but really it is about time we had a fresh think on this. ______528 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
5340 Finally, perhaps the Minister can advise me what is going to happen here in the Isle of Man now the UK have got rid of their tax discs?
The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Turner
5345 Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President. Just in keeping with tradition, I will not be voting for this Order. I see that motorists are completely cash cows for governments. I notice Mr Watterson is nodding his head there: I was not aware that he actually drove. (Interjections and laughter) I think the points Mr Downie raises are quite valid and I think what we are going to be doing 5350 here is we are going to be hitting people, yet again, who are already under severe pressure. This is yet another huge increase when you look at some of the bands of cubic capacity. I think certainly when I was on the Department of Transport these increases were used to meet their savings, and in my view that is not really savings. The suggestion I made back then, which I will repeat, is that huge savings could be made if you actually abolished the Highways 5355 Division completely and rolled it into the Works Division. There were vast inefficiencies in that Department when we had this client-contractor system, which I was not a fan of, and there were whole rafts of bureaucracy there, of inter-divisional invoicing going on – you could get rid of all that. We had my Division there, which was Works, effectively bankrupt because the Highways Division were not handing over the money; all the schemes were coming at the end of the year, 5360 therefore they could not be completed; and it was an utter shambles. I hope that system would be looked at, because this is where a lot of the costs are coming for the Department. I know it is being dressed up here… which is, to me, one that on the surface it is very difficult to argue against, because how could you argue against £70,000 of improvements in road safety – of course, we all sign up to that – but the reality is that this is the public being 5365 hammered yet again for increased charges. I accept there is a lot of good work being done. Peel Road – although we grumble about the delays, it needed doing – obviously is a major capital scheme, but I hope there are other such roads that will be also maintained. I understand the vehicle duty… a proportion of that does go to these schemes and I think generally the road user accepts that, but when we are seeing the 5370 increases… For example, some of the higher-capacity vehicles are going up £11, £17, £20 and £21. Some of those vehicles may not necessarily be operated by choice of the individual; they may be for other reasons – farming, industry and so on – so it is not just as simple as saying we will hammer the higher-capacity vehicles and reduce the lower and everyone will sell their vehicles and go and get a 50-cc scooter, because that just will not happen. 5375 So, in keeping with tradition, I will not be voting for this today.
The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Butt.
Mr Butt: Thank you, Madam President. 5380 A Member: Got a Mini.
Mr Butt: Speaking, really, as a result of my colleague, Mr Turner, in Council’s remarks, I fully support these changes. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I think it is good value for money; it is not 5385 treating the motorist as a cash cow. (Mr Turner: It is.) I welcome the 25-year rolling programme being restored. That is a good move. I have a car that is on the cusp at the moment myself. (Laughter)
Mr Turner: Declaring an interest. 5390 Mr Butt: All my cars are on the cusp! ______529 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Mr Turner: Falling to bits!
Mr Butt: I think the simple answer is what Mr Turner said: if you think these charges are too 5395 much of an imposition, change your car to a smaller capacity of vehicle or a car with lower emissions, and that is the simple solution. There are reliefs for HGVs etc, and those who really need to use vehicles for work are helped, but for the ordinary motorist the message is quite clear: the lower cc you have, the cheaper it will be, and don’t complain about the increases if you have a large-capacity vehicle. 5400 Mr Turner: They use the same bit of road.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Singer.
5405 Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President. I do understand the comments made by Mr Turner, because that was an argument I always used to place: that people, big families, not a lot of money, had older cars etc. The fact is that everybody argues we want better roads – ‘My road is not good,’ ‘This road needs doing,’ ‘That road needs doing,’ – and if we were to make every road to the standard we wanted, it would 5410 cost us £100 million, which obviously we have not got. We have got £12 million approximately and we are really stretching to keep the roads at any kind of level at that kind of money. If we are going to have more money reduced, then the roads will get worse; and once they start to get worse, you will never ever have a chance of recovering. Also, I pick up Mr Downie’s point about the extra costs of running cars and so people are not 5415 licensing them anymore. It is not just vehicle duty, but it is insurance costs and fuel cost. The fact is people are now running fewer cars and there is less money coming in. Because here, not like the UK, we spend all our money on the roads, there is less money coming in; so as Mr Butt said, there has got to be a balance. Hopefully this is a balance and the people will accept that by paying that small amount they will get better roads. Obviously it is safer – safer to drive, safer 5420 for people to walk across. ‘Roads’ includes pavements as well, and we are doing something this year, hopefully, to improve a lot of pavements in the whole of the Island. I hope Members will support this, understanding what they say about costs going up, but basically we do not have any choice.
5425 The President: The Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you. I thank all those Members who have had their comment. Whether it is an annual comment or otherwise, (Laughter) they are all appreciated. 5430 Mr Turner: It is more than that.
The Minister: In relation to Mr Downie, I agree with him – I do not want any over-clutter of signage, (A Member: Hear, hear.) and we have been in dialogue electronically, I think, about 5435 that. So anything we can do to reduce that whilst remaining safe, in terms of the usage of the roads, we will obviously be doing that. We are trying to remove clutter as we go along. The tax discs to be abolished in the UK – I did not know about that until you just said it, so I apologise about that. I guess I should have done. We cannot do that until we are able to deploy ANPR and electronic enforcement, I am told. 5440 I do thank him also for the lesson in economics. That was useful, and without being too flippant the point he makes is one which is well made: of course that happens – you get to a point where people get put off.
______530 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
I think one of the reasons for the reduction in vehicles is… as well as the point the Hon. Member makes, I think it could be, for some, the general economic climate – people are being 5445 more careful, and that is something that is a matter of fact. Mr Turner spoke about how, when he was a Member at the Department of Transport, he would have saved the Highways Division and rolled it into the Operations Division. I thought I had said in here already – but if not here then I certainly have elsewhere – that work is underway to do just that. It has been independently verified by Beamans, just as I did with the 5450 ports. The Airport and the sea ports have come together under the Director of Ports. The same applies here. I have never seen the logic of having the Highways and Operations Divisions, this client-contractor thing. It is the Isle of Man; it is not some metropolitan district elsewhere. And so work is underway and the timescale which we have given for that is 31st March next year for that work to be completed. 5455 He says that the measures here may put people off who have got larger cars. Hands up, I declare an interest – I have a large car, but that is a matter of my choice. Nobody is forced to have a large car and perhaps we should be encouraging more people to have small cars – and perhaps more people are getting small cars, and maybe that in part may lead to a reduced income, which is part of the issue here, I think. 5460 It began in Mr Gawne's time in the Department, in terms of the emissions and trying to play our part –
Mr Anderson: It started before that.
5465 The Minister: It started before that; okay, it started in your time. I do apologise – it started in Mr Anderson’s time, who has come out as a ‘green’ this afternoon and I am very happy about that. (Laughter)
Mr Gawne: Wet behind the ears, anyway. (Interjections) 5470 The Minister: Yes. I am trying to be helpful.
Mr Gawne: Go on, then.
5475 The Minister: Maybe I will be even more helpful if I stop now. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) I beg to move. (Laughter)
The President: The motion is that the Vehicle Duty Order 2013 be approved. Those in favour, 5480 please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
12. Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 – Excepted Vehicles (Amendment of Schedule 5 to the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986) Order 2013 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the Excepted Vehicles (Amendment of Schedule 5 to the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0390/13]
The President: Item 12. The Minister for the Treasury to move. 5485 ______531 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. The purpose of this Order is to amend schedule 5 to the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 so as to permit agricultural vehicles using rebated fuel to be used in clearing public roads of frost, snow and ice should the Island endure another bout of severe weather. 5490 Under the Act, agricultural vehicles may use rebated fuel on public roads when engaged on certain activity concerning agriculture, horticulture, or forestry work. This Order adds to those permitted activities the clearing of roads, the collecting and returning of equipment, and proceeding to and from where the vehicles are required. The revenue effect of this Order is expected to be minimal. 5495 Madam President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name.
Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quayle. 5500 Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. I will be very brief. I would just like to thank the Treasury Minister for coming up with something that is both practical and makes perfect common sense. In the bad snows of March of this year, there were public spirited members of the community who wanted to go out and help 5505 the Island’s infrastructure with blocked cars, clear roads etc, and legally they were unable to do so. I welcome this practical solution.
Member: Hear, hear.
5510 The President: The Minister to respond.
The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. I think it is a good example of a pragmatic approach to help the community to work together. With that, I would like to move the motion. 5515 The President: The motion is set out at Item 12 on your Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
13. Value Added Tax Act 1996 – Value Added Tax (Flat-Rate Valuation of Supplies of Fuel for Private Use) Order 2013 approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That the Value Added Tax (Flat-Rate Valuation of Supplies of Fuel for Private Use) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0391/13]
5520 The President: Item 13. The Minister for the Treasury.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. This Order is made under paragraph B1 of schedule 7 to the Value Added Tax Act 1996, and is concerned with the method by which VAT-registered businesses may account for VAT on the 5525 private use of vehicles supplied for business use.
The Order provides the mechanism for a system using flat rate amounts based on the CO2 emissions of a vehicle. It also provides for an annual review and revalorisation of the amounts.
______532 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
With effect from 1st February 2014, the Value Added Tax Act 1996 is being amended to change how the private use of business fuel in vehicles is accounted for. This follows off the 5530 previous system used in the UK and the Island. The changes were first announced in the UK budget of 2012. The immediate effect on those businesses opting to use the new system in place of the previous scale charges is nil, as the amounts in the table provided are the same. The next review of amounts is due before 1st May 2014 and will use a formula set down in schedule 3 to the Order. 5535 Madam President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood.
Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. 5540 The President: The motion is set out on your Order Paper at Item 13, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
14-15. Fisheries Act 2012 – Sea Fisheries (Baie ny Carrickey Closed Area) Regulations 2013 approved – Baie ny Carrickey (Restrictions on Fishing for Lobster and Crab) Regulations 2013 approved
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move:
14. That the Sea Fisheries (Baie ny Carrickey Closed Area) Regulations 2013 be approved. [SD No 0376/13] 15. That the Baie ny Carrickey (Restrictions on Fishing for Lobster and Crab) Regulations 2013 be approved. [SD No 0379/13]
The President: The President: The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture seeks to move Items 14 and 15 together, followed by Items 16, 17 and 18 together, voting on them all 5545 separately. Are you content, Hon. Members? (Members: Agreed.) I call on the Minister.
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. These two sets of Regulations continue the closure of Baie ny Carrickey to scallop fishing by 5550 any means from 1st November 2013 and provide for a trial period of three years in respect of restricted potting activity within the Baie. The Baie has been closed to scallop fishing since November 2012, with that closure being the result of recommendations made by an independent working party consisting of lobster-pot fishermen, representatives of the Manx Fish Producers Organisation, divers, rod and line 5555 anglers, and representatives from the wildlife sector. A consultation on the continued closure took place over July and August of this year, with the majority of respondents in favour of a continued closure of the Baie to scallop fishing. Members may recall that in June of this year I brought a revision to the original closure legislation which allowed for restricted potting activity within the Baie. Those restrictions 5560 included an increased minimum landing size for both crab and lobster, as well as requiring the use of five pots per fisherman without the mandatory escape hatches, to enable collection of data on juvenile lobster numbers in the Baie. This pilot scheme was scheduled to end on 31st October, and the majority of consultation respondents favoured an extension of the pilot to a trial period of three years, and the 5565 Regulations provide for just that. ______533 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
During the period of the trial, scientists will be closely monitoring catches and sustainability of the fishery in the Baie with a view to possibly extending similar management plans to other areas of the territorial sea. I would therefore, Eaghtyrane, move the resolution in my name. 5570 The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 5575 The President: I put to you Item 14 first, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. And then Item 15 on your Order Papers: those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
16-18. Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 – Housing (Definition of Flat or House in Multiple Occupation) Order 2013 approved – Housing (Registration) Regulations 2013 approved – Housing (Standards) Regulations 2013 approved
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move:
16. That the Housing (Definition of Flat or House in Multiple Occupation) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0377/13] 17. That the Housing (Registration) Regulations 2013 be approved. [SD No 0380/13] 18. That the Housing (Standards) Regulations 2013 be approved. [SD No 0378/13]
5580 The President: Items 16, 17 and 18.
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. This Order and two sets of Regulations introduce provisions which define what constitutes a flat or house in multiple occupation, requires such accommodation to be registered with local 5585 authorities, and controls the standards of amenity within them. This legislation effectively removes the illegality of houses or flats in multiple occupation that currently exists and which, if enforced, would likely have exacerbated housing problems such as homelessness. This legislation will enable local authorities to control the construction and maintenance of 5590 properties used or intended for multiple occupation, and to ensure that reasonable and safe accommodation is provided for those utilising it. More details are contained in the paper circulated to Members, and I would therefore, Eaghtyrane, move the resolution in my name.
5595 The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell.
Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
5600 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quirk.
Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. ______534 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Just on the papers before us – the houses in multiple occupation – for the record, if I could ask the Minister are there to be any exclusions from registering with a local authority, or an 5605 exemption of any of the houses in multiple occupation? As I have asked in the past, I do believe… and my thoughts are getting even stronger regarding the Nurses’ Home that is in Westmoreland Road. It is a dwelling which is in multiple occupation, and I am seeking an assurance from him that his officers will take the same vigorous enforcement with any private ones as they will with those owned by a Government Department. 5610 Can I also ask the Minister regarding the standards, or the register: is it to be endorsed by the local authority? I am just wondering what consultation has taken place with the local authorities to take on this particular role, as I am aware that currently the list for local authority flats – and I have examined a number now over the last three months… some carry properties which are non-existent, which have been demolished over a number of years, so they are not kept up to 5615 date. There are no actual guidelines for a local authority if a complaint comes in, although your Department does take action when a local authority does something. Is there not a concern, even on a human rights issue, on fairness across a jurisdiction where a local authority flat or dwelling is in existence and may be treated differently than ones that are in the private sector? If I could ask the Minister on that. 5620 It did not say in the paper how much this is likely to increase the costs. There is a one-off fee set at £50, and also if that fee is actually being exempt for charities and Government Departments as well, because even the Health Service itself and even Manx National Heritage have a number of flats in their portfolio, or rented properties. Will they be exempt?
5625 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just like to ask the Minister about the situation raised this morning, when we were talking about standards, the issue that we were not looking for the standards that we would be expecting if we were looking at this accommodation for ourselves or 5630 our close families. I just wondered if the Shirveishagh has any similar views of not having the same standards as should be expected, if it was us who were being accommodated by these facilities, and what his views are as far as that is concerned? I have to say that if this actually comes about and brings about some sort of movement over the years of abuse, then I think you should be supportive as far as this proposal is concerned. It 5635 is important that this section of the community, who think they are completely divorced from our society and from this Court, who see us in a poor light… and if this is going to bring action to bring about standards that are acceptable… If they are not acceptable for our own personal accommodation, we should not be expecting to have lower standards for our people within this Island. 5640 The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Downie.
Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President. Could I, first of all, put on record my thanks to Mr John Howie. Unfortunately, I was unable to 5645 attend the presentation, and Mr Howie was very good to come to Tynwald and take me all through the various orders and provisions that are in front of us today. I have had concern about this area for a while because, as a former Douglas Member and a former council member, I have actually seen parts of my town degenerating – old redundant guest houses and hotels, where you have had up to 15 or 20 workmen living in there, sleeping 5650 on the floor in sleeping bags, very poor standards – and really I welcome what is going on in the Department to try and deal with this because it has become a problem and no longer can we afford to have this type of problem or type of accommodation. There are some areas I still have concern about – and I just want to put my marker down now – where we are looking at standards required for flats. I would like to ask the Minister, if the ______535 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
5655 flats cannot be brought up to standard for whatever reason – and here it is adequate provisions for heating, lighting, ventilation, thermal and sound insulation – I would suggest that they not be put on to any list of houses that are suitable for multiple occupancy. Another very good example I can give you is a certain hotel bought a property in York Road, and they had their staff living in there. At any one time, there were between 20 and 25 staff 5660 members in there, 24 hours a day – up and down the stairs, single-cavity wall, noise constantly. They made the neighbours’ lives next door, on either side, a nightmare. The only remedy that was available, they were told, to the nightmares, was, ‘Keep a log and Environmental Health will monitor what is going on.’ In the end, they moved out, and you have got empty houses now, but circumstances are that that particular house has been sold now, so the problem has actually 5665 resolved itself. There can be nothing worse, Hon. Members, than living next to one of these places. Provided that standards are there and they are properly maintained, and there is a proper policing policy, in my opinion there should not be a problem. The only other problem that I have in this area is that, for some weird reason unknown to the Department itself, we moved all the environmental health officers out to St John's, when the 5670 real problems that they have to deal with on a day-to-day basis are mainly in Douglas and some of the older towns in the Isle of Man. Where is the economy in doing all that? The other issue is they still work as agents for the various local authorities, and sadly the decision is not the Department’s whether to take a prosecution; it is the local authority’s, and it is exactly the same problem we have got with dilapidated housing and all these other issues. (A 5675 Member: Yes.) Until we grasp the nettle, Hon. Members, (A Member: Yes.) and we set these things up properly, they will not go away. Saying that, I am prepared to give the Minister my support, much against my better judgement but I think they are heading in the right direction. We have got to stop what is going on with some of these houses here. I am very surprised that we have not found people burned 5680 to death and all sorts of things, because there are people going out for a drink and coming back and cooking in their rooms with washing hanging up all over the place, which in my mind is totally unacceptable in this day and age. Thank you.
5685 The President: The Minister to reply.
The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. If I could start with Mr Downie, I certainly am very grateful to him for expressing his thanks to Mr Howie for giving him that briefing, and I also welcome his support. 5690 I agree with him: it is quite shameful, really, that we have allowed this to continue for as long as it has; but I suppose we have appreciated that, in terms of housing policy, we would have had a major problem if we had tried to impose higher standards, or any standards, at an earlier stage than this. So we now have got to a position where I think we have got our act together and we can 5695 actually introduce this legislation without causing a major problem in terms of people being evicted and then not having anywhere to live. I think the Hon. Member for Onchan made a very important point on this, and that is about the standards that we are imposing here. I was quite shocked when I first read the legislation, to sign it off last month, and I thought, ‘Are we really saying that these standards are acceptable for 5700 people?’ – and this is actually bringing them up to a higher standard. This is imposing a higher standard. Quite frankly, I would hope that, as we pass 1st January 2017, which is the transition period which allows us to introduce these standards, we will look again to see whether we can impose perhaps more realistic and reasonable standards (A Member: Hear, hear.) which would be a higher standard. Certainly I think the standards that we are imposing here are a basic 5705 minimum, giving people a reasonable level of accommodation, and I am very pleased that Mr Downie has supported that. ______536 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The move to St John’s of my Environmental Health team was a matter that was decided upon by this Hon. Court (Mr Downie: Not by us.) and perhaps others will come up with a different view at some point. 5710 As regards local authorities taking their responsibilities in regard to their clear responsibility in relation to housing, they really ought to take those responsibilities. As the Hon. Member of Council points out, my officers are there to enforce the legislation for the local authorities to act as an agent for enforcement, but if the local authorities choose not to do that, then that is a matter for them. It is a matter which is attracting some attention at the moment, and certainly I 5715 would hope that, as a result of the ongoing policy changes that the Minister for Social Care is introducing, we will get some greater clarity about those responsibilities and ensure that local authorities actually do take these responsibilities more seriously. I thank my seconder. I should have thanked Mrs Cannell in the first place. Mr Quirk has a number of points that he wished to raise. Is there going to be any increase in 5720 costs? No, because it is actually illegal at the moment to have these quite deplorable properties, so we cannot be increasing a cost on something that we do not actually charge for at the moment. We cannot charge for it, because it is illegal – that is the whole point of introducing this. As for human rights, I think my concern is about the human rights of the people who are 5725 expected to live in these disgraceful properties, (Two Members: Hear, hear.) and I worry about any Member of this Hon. Court who is championing the rights of the people who have been renting out these properties in such a disgraceful condition (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) for so long. Those are the people who actually we should be going after, and the people whose human rights we should be protecting are the unfortunate people who have to live in these properties. 5730 There has been a full consultation that has taken place, so everybody knows about this legislation. We have had a few people – mainly people who seem to own these properties – who seem to think that we do not need to have any legislation, which is quite bizarre because it is quite clear that they own properties which are currently illegal, so why they would not want these properties to be made legal and brought up to a reasonable standard, I do not know. I 5735 have probably said enough. I beg to move.
The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 16, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 5740 Item 17: those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Item 18: those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
19. Sunbeds Act 2013 – Sunbeds (Prescribed Information and Notices) Regulations 2013 approved
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move:
That the Sunbeds (Prescribed Information and Notices) Regulations 2013 be approved. [SD No 0395/13]
The President: We turn to Item 19, and I call on the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move.
5745 The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane.
______537 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Members will recall the passage of the Sunbeds Bill through the branches during this year, where it was noted that there had been a proliferation of unmanned sunbed salons in recent years and advice given to those operating them has largely been ignored. The World Health Organisation recommended, in 2005, that no-one under the age of 18 5750 should use a sunbed and that guidelines and legislation to reduce the risks associated with sunbed use was required. A growth in the availability of sunbeds, combined with the desire and fashion to have a tan, are considered to be the prime reasons for increased incidences of skin cancer in developed countries. These Regulations provide for the health information which must be contained in 5755 notices displayed in sunbed salons and the form in which those notices should be so displayed. I would therefore, Eaghtyrane, move the resolution in my name.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell.
5760 Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quirk.
5765 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Just quickly, if I could ask the Minister if he could possibly tell us how many establishments there are on the Island and if the officer has visited them to make sure that the signage is there.
Mr Turner: It is not in yet. 5770 The President: The Minister to reply.
The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I am sure the Department will have a list of all the sunbed establishments on the Island; I 5775 certainly do not know how many there are. As for having visited all the establishments to make sure that they are complying with legislation which I am introducing today and has not been approved yet, well no, obviously the officers have not gone round and required them to do that because I am only introducing the legislation today; but I am sure that tomorrow, once I have introduced the legislation, they will 5780 be out there.
A Member: On the doorstep.
A Member: On 1st January. 5785 The President: Yes, the Hon. Member has pointed out it comes into effect on 1st January. The motion before the Court is set out at Item 19. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
20. Misuse of Drugs Act 1976 – Misuse of Drugs (Controlled Drug Specification) (MDAI) Order 2013 approved
The Minister for Health to move:
______538 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
That the Misuse of Drugs (Controlled Drug Specification) (MDAI) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0375/13]
The President: Item 20. The Minister for Health. 5790 The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, the purpose of this motion is to seek the approval of this Hon. Court to the Misuse of Drugs (Controlled Drug Specification) (MDAI) Order 2013. In order to continue to specify that this drug – and for the benefit of Hansard I will spell it, in 5795 case my pronunciation is not spot-on in this instance: 5,6-Methylenedioxy-2-aminoindane –
Mr Corkish: Could you repeat that?
The Minister: – known as MDAI, is a controlled drug, in accordance with section 2(3) of the 5800 Misuse of Drugs Act 1976, the Isle of Man Act, the Department may, after consulting with the Isle of Man Advisory Council for the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD), by order specify a substance or product as a controlled drug, even though it is not for the time being specified as such in the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, an Act of Parliament. In accordance with section 2(4) of the Isle of Man Act, this type of Order automatically ceases 5805 to have effect 12 months after it comes into operation; but, in accordance with section 2(5) of the Act, a further Order may be made. Hon. Members may recall that, in 2010, toxicity of MDAI was given as a cause of death in a local case brought before the Coroner of Inquests. Subsequently, the Isle of Man ACMD recommended that MDAI should be specified as a controlled drug, so that it would be subject to 5810 the same restrictions as other potentially dangerous drugs in respect of importation, exportation, production, supply and possession. The Department accepted this recommendation and then sought and received Tynwald approval at the December 2011 sitting of this Hon. Court for the temporary ban of MDAI for a period of 12 months from 1st January 2012. Once this Order expired, the Hon. Court approved a further Order, which will expire on 31st December this 5815 year. In summary, the Department is of the view that MDAI continues to be a substance which may be unsafe and may continue to be a social problem for the Isle of Man and should therefore continue to be banned. Madam President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. 5820 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Butt.
Mr Butt: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.
5825 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Watterson.
Mr Watterson: Madam President, if I could just briefly put on the record the support of the Department of Home Affairs for this Item, just to put the message out there that whilst these may be considered legal highs in some countries, they are not legal in the Isle of Man, by virtue 5830 of this Order, (A Member: Hear, hear.) and the message should go out that not only are they illegal but unsafe.
Mr Houghton and another Member: Hear, hear.
5835 The President: The Minister to reply.
______539 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The Minister: Madam President, I do not think a reply is needed. I think all the Departments are singing from the same hymn sheet on this one. Thank you. I beg to move. 5840 The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 20. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
21. Castletown Town Commissioners – Use of Inquiries (Evidence) Act 2003 re inquiry into scheme to reduce numbers – Motion carried
The Minister for Infrastructure to move:
That the powers of the Inquiries (Evidence) Act 2003 shall be exercisable in relation to the inquiry into the proposal by Castletown Town Commissioners to reduce the numbers of members of the local authority caused to be made by the Department of Infrastructure pursuant to section 9 (5) of the Local Government Act 1985.
The President: Item 21. The Minister for Infrastructure to move. 5845 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you. As part of its duties and functions relating to local authorities, the Department is statutorily obliged to consider requests from local authorities wishing to reduce the number of its elected members. This may happen for a number of reasons. 5850 The Department has received a scheme from Castletown Commissioners which seeks to reduce the number of its elected members from nine to seven from 2016 onwards. As part of the process for considering this scheme, it is necessary to hold a public inquiry to give all stakeholders and interested parties an opportunity to comment on the proposals. The purpose of this motion is to seek Tynwald’s approval so that the powers of the Inquiries 5855 (Evidence) Act 2003 can be used in relation to a public inquiry. In order for the inquiry to be meaningful, the Department has determined that the procedural powers in the 2003 Act should be available to the chairman of the inquiry. The motion, if approved, will empower the chairman to require persons to attend the inquiry to give evidence under oath and to produce any document under his or her custody or control 5860 that relates to any matter in question of the inquiry. The provisions of the 2003 Act also offer any witnesses to the inquiry the same immunities and privileges as if he or she were a witness in civil proceedings before the High Court. This motion will also ensure that the proceedings are held in public and enable the chairman to determine costs and attribute liability to meet the costs of the inquiry to any or all parties. 5865 After the inquiry, the Department will consider the chairman's report and recommendations and then make an order which will, subject to Tynwald approval, give effect to the scheme so that it comes into effect on 1st April 2014. I beg to move.
5870 The President: The Hon. Member for Castletown, Mr Ronan.
Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. I am delighted to second this motion in relation to Castletown Commissioners reducing its members from nine to seven and to allow a public inquiry to be held.
______540 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
5875 As an ex-member and chairman of Castletown Commissioners I must congratulate the current Chairman, Mr Kevin Weir, and his board of commissioners for making this bold step to reduce its members. Castletown Commissioners have shown recently the appetite to be receptive to change and have encouraged open dialogue with other neighbouring authorities on various issues, including 5880 housing and waste, and have recently contracted Douglas Borough Council for its waste collection service, saving the ratepayers a considerable sum. It is important to state today that this (Interjection by Mr Quirk) reduction in board members is not related to local government reform, but purely Castletown Commissioners embracing change in the interests of its ratepayers, and I congratulate them for that. 5885 Thank you, Madam President.
Mr Corkish and Mr Turner: Hear, hear.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. 5890 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. Just one brief question of the Minister, which is I already saw notice of this and I wondered why it was necessary to give notice previously, before we actually were setting up the commission. 5895 Mr Crowe: Now you know.
The President: Minister.
5900 The Minister: The local authority gives notice by publishing details of the scheme in at least two newspapers and also by posting the details at its principal office. I understand that that process has been followed and we are just simply following a route. I agree with the comments of the Hon. Member for Castletown that they are acting in a progressive way, which is something we should applaud and welcome from others. 5905 I beg to move.
The President: The motion is set out at Item 21, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
22. Government Armed Forces Champion – Motion carried
The Government’s Armed Forces Champion, Mr Watterson, to move:
That Tynwald recommends that for any term of office commencing on or after 1 January 2015 the Defence Council should appoint, as representative member of the North West Reserve Forces and Cadets Association to represent Tynwald, whichever Member of Tynwald holds the role of Armed Forces Champion at the time the appointment is made; and that if, at that time, this role is not held by a Member of Tynwald, the Defence Council should instead appoint a Member of Tynwald nominated by the Council of Ministers. [PP No 0144/13]
5910 The President: Item 22. The Government’s Armed Forces Champion. Mr Watterson to move.
______541 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The Government’s Armed Forces Champion (Mr Watterson): Hon. Members will have received my memorandum setting out the history, context and reasons for the proposal before you. For the benefit of Hansard, since the 2011 Election, a number of disparate armed forces 5915 roles, appointed by Government, have coalesced around the position of the Armed Forces Champion. I am already a member of the North West Reserve Force and Cadets Association, but the motion before Hon. Members today places that role, which is already nominated by Council of Ministers, to fall within the ambit of the Armed Forces Champion. Madam President, in terms of a brief update on the Community Covenant, the Covenant, I 5920 believe, has led to some very positive outcomes. It has led to a single point of contact for members of the public, with greater understanding between the armed forces related committees within Government to provide a more joined-up approach. It has provided for better links with the armed forces community, especially 103 Regiment Royal Artillery, who brought a light gun over for Remembrance Day and will be working with the Youth Justice Team 5925 on youth engagement in a non-recruiting context. I have been working with the Information Systems Division to develop a web page, which I hope will go live shortly. Thanking you, Madam President, for that indulgence, I beg to move the Item standing in my name, which has the support of key members of the armed forces community.
5930 Mr Corkish: Hear, hear.
Mr Henderson: I beg to second, Eaghtyrane, and reserve my remarks.
The President: The motion is set out at Item 22, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say 5935 aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
23. Select Committee on Petition for Redress of Sarah Lee Watterson – Debate commenced
The Hon Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to move:
That Tynwald appoints a committee of three Members with powers to take written and oral evidence pursuant to sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, as amended, to investigate and report on the Petition for Redress presented at St John’s on 5th July 2013 by Sarah Lee Watterson in relation to building regulations and other property matters.
The President: Item 23. Petition for Redress. The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, Hon. Members, there are grave inadequacies in the Manx property law. The petition of Miss Watterson emphasises this and shows not only the human costs of 5940 legislative failure but the significant implications to the Island’s international commitments to basic human rights. At the heart of this is the simple fact that the present legal framework is archaic, ambiguous and grossly biased against the rights of ordinary purchasers not eligible to get legal aid. We need action to protect the public and the right to purchase a home free from defects and danger. 5945 Buying a home, especially your first home, should be a milestone. It should be about building a better life for you and your family. Those walls do not just carry the roof, but they carry hopes and dreams and expectations. It is plainly wrong that then misconduct should exploit the expectations whilst depriving you of it.
______542 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
In the issue of the purchase of Flat 1, 32 Christian Road, Douglas by the petitioner, the 5950 property is structurally defective and dangerous. Those defects were knowingly concealed, with the net effect that the property was not what was paid for or what was promoted. Of course, this is not a new case for some Members of this Hon. Court, who have been to the property and spoken to the petitioner. However, I can confirm that the advice she received from certain MHKs to take out a loan for £40,000 to do the remedial works and problems was neither 5955 practical nor achievable. It is not the petitioner’s responsibility and it ignores the real problem of legislative failure. The case shows fundamental flaws in the law with regard to the development and conversion of buildings, the low standards of inspection in the process, the lack of rights and redress to victims of defective property and management companies. The petitioner turns upon these 5960 flaws… and firstly the property, as acknowledged by Environmental Health, is not fit for human habitation. I repeat: is not fit for human habitation. The developer has acknowledged this, but chosen not to act. I was thinking about sending, not an exhaustive list of defects… but to quicken the guide to Members, the problems range from the mismatch of the kitchen doors through to structural 5965 failure of walls, causing saturation to the point of endangering the life of the petitioner. The petitioner still resides in the property as she is unable to move and has invested the little money she has in carrying out works to make it semi-watertight. Those works revealed that there was inadequate ventilation, floor joists were resting on soil, sodden loft insulation stuffed in walls – to name but a few of the problems. The developer criticised her for carrying out these 5970 works without permission. The only reason she did was for her health and wellbeing and because of the… [Inaudible] and moral failure as far as actions to be taken to help the petitioner. Secondly, despite the purported inspection of the renovation process by Douglas Corporation, it is self-evident that there has been a failure. It is perhaps the failure that explains why they will not supply any documentation about their role at the property to the petitioner. 5975 The property has been condemned, as I said before, by the Environmental Health; yet the Corporation relies upon the confused legal position that makes Manx property law able to be confused and to be able to get away from their responsibilities. Despite the warranty, the property passed its inspection and was supposed to be fit for purpose. It should not have been. It was not, and effectively it has rendered the final inspection process meaningless. 5980 Thirdly, the petitioner has no access to justice. She does not qualify for legal aid, and she has been first to accrue debts with lawyers she cannot afford, and the only gain to her has been nothing more than a folder of invoices and bigger financial problems – to achieve nothing. The developers, at every turn, have simply evaded justice, exploited the great inequalities of arms between those who can afford justice and those who cannot. 5985 In reality, it is very simple. There is an acute absence of law that makes it illegal to sell defective properties and remedies its victims. There needs to be both, as a question of public policy in promoting high standards of property and making justice accessible, where in these breaches a duty of care should have been. Equally, the Financial Supervision Commission and the Office of Fair Trading have shown 5990 themselves unwilling to intervene or to investigate the property on a number of transactions, accountancy practices and issues. They do not appear to be reconcilable with the fiduciary clarity required from management companies. There is obviously a lack of regulatory enforcement. In summary, there is an absence of laws governing the development and conversion and 5995 purchasing and selling of defective properties. As a question in law it favours the developer, not the purchaser, and is blatantly unfair. The system is very much against the victims of defective property and homebuyers generally. I ask Hon. Members that a committee be tasked with the collection of evidence on the following points: a comprehensive review of defective properties legislation and its sanctions 6000 where bad faith by vendors is evident in the transaction; a review of the basic legislative practice ______543 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
in defective properties to afford victims justice; an investigation into the powers required for Government on behalf of victims to take enforcement action against developers that fail to meet standards; a review of the role of Douglas Corporation and its officers in respect of the conversion of 32 Christian Road; an investigation into the reasonableness and otherwise of 6005 Douglas Corporation passing the property; an examination of the developer’s conduct; and an examination of the management company’s conduct. The petitioner has been subjected to a nightmare, where the source of her problem is the very place she should be feeling safe – her home – and has endured an ordeal because of the lack of the present situation and been locked into a defective property with no remedy. The 6010 developers appear to have exploited this and there are great inadequacies as far as the legal system relating to defective properties and its victims. Hon. Members, property is likely the biggest single investment that we all make. It is vital, when investments fail because of sinister conduct by sellers, that the buyers are afforded access to a remedy. That is a basic human right. 6015 Eaghtyrane, I hope that Members will support the motion standing in my name, and let’s get on with this important issue.
Two Members: Hear, hear.
6020 The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft.
Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second, and I sincerely hope that Tynwald supports this motion and that any eventual recommendations by the committee will show what needs to change to prevent 6025 anyone else from becoming a victim of outdated Manx law and the byelaw inspection process. I think that saying that this lady is a victim is not putting it too strongly. She is, but I would hope that she is going to be the last. The mover of this motion, my colleague Mr Karran, has just given you all the details of this case and I do not intend to go over them again; but I would like to say that if this motion is not 6030 successful the petitioner will have been subject to further injustice, and I am sure that there is no Member of Tynwald who would wish for that. Thank you, Madam President.
A Member: Hear, hear. 6035 The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk.
Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. I echo the sentiments that have made here tonight, but I just wanted to test with Hon. 6040 Members… maybe to enhance the decision that may be coming forward there, and I have put an amendments down to that. I wanted to use the committees that we have already got set up to do this. What I have done is – if the document could be circulated, Madam President, while I am speaking – to leave out the words… and then to insert ‘that Tynwald instructs the Environment and Infrastructure Policy 6045 Review Committee to investigate and report on the petition of redress presently at St John's on 5th July 2013 by Sarah Lee Watterson in relation to the building regulations and other property matters.’ What I hoped… to get a seconder on that, and I have not couched a seconder on that… was to make a target date for it, that we would actually be reporting back by a certain date. We have 6050 these committees and I think they are actually doing well and doing justice to ourselves in this particular Court and those people who we do represent outside. I would encourage… and it is not to circumvent the petition that… or the… (A Member: The mover.) the mover has put in his ______544 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
particular documents there, but it is to put some date on it and some clarification where this particular person, who has legitimate… and I am led to believe she does have legitimate 6055 concerns there. There may be others, but I would think that this Committee could bring that together and we could have that report done. I beg to move:
To leave out the words ‘appoints a Committee of three Members with powers to take written and oral evidence pursuant to sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, as amended,’ and insert ‘instructs the Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee’.
Mr Henderson: You won’t get it done, then.
6060 The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Downie.
Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President. I do not have a problem seconding the hon. mover’s amendment, if the Court wishes it tonight to proceed, but there are a couple of things that I want to just get clear before I make 6065 my mind up on how I am going to vote on this particular petition. There is an old Roman –
The President: Do I understand… Do you just want to clarify that, if you are are seconding the amendment? 6070 Mr Downie: I will second it, yes. I am not sure… I might not vote for it.
The President: Right.
6075 Mr Downie: There is an old legal saying, caveat emptor, which means let the buyer beware, and one of the things that the hon. mover did not say to us during his preamble, in his presentation of the case, was has the prospective owner of this property had an independent survey carried out; and if not, why not? That is the first logical thing that you do, and if you have not got somebody organised what she should be doing then is she should be getting somebody 6080 in the industry or somebody allied to have a look and give her an opinion. The second thing I would like to know is did she pay for this herself outright, or has she borrowed the money from the bank, because it is highly unusual in this day and age that the bank have not insisted (A Member: Hear, hear.) on some sort of a survey to be carried out. As much as I have got sympathy, you would need to be mad to assume that a brand-new 6085 high-standard conversion could be carried out in a property at 32 Christian Road in Douglas, which is a stone-built former guesthouse or boarding house – they do not convert very easily and often require significant amounts of money to be spent. Nothing is new here. We have seen the same thing when we had a petition a few years ago with Noreen Thompson in (A Member: Derby Road.) Derby Road. 6090 Mr Braidwood: Yes, Jean Noreen Thompson.
Mr Downie: Yes. So we are actually going over old ground, and that is why I have got no problem, if the motion goes ahead, to support the amendment, because you have got a 6095 Committee here who I think are fairly well-balanced. They are quite well versed now in the Environment and Infrastructure policy and so on, and they would know the right people to get in to talk to them. As I say, I feel very sorry for this person, but at the end of the day, as all these problems unravel themselves and come to light – dampness and infestation and so on – all this could have ______545 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
6100 been prevented by a proper survey being carried out, without going around afterwards trying to rectify the problem. If the place is not fit for purpose and it is not what they want, they should be up to the mark to say, ‘Well, no, it is not affordable, it has not been properly converted, and I am not going to enter into buying it.’ I would be very surprised to find out that a bank has lent her money and not done its due diligence on this property, because that is something that they 6105 are very astute with these days. I will sit down at this point. Thank you.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Butt.
Mr Butt: Thank you, Madam President. 6110 I speak as the Chair of the Environment and Infrastructure Scrutiny Committee, and although we would not be able to fix the house for the petitioner, I think it probably would be a wise move for this matter to come before our Committee. It seems to be a case of trying to find out is the legislation in place or has it been enforced properly? From my reading of it, there is some legislation in place which perhaps has not been 6115 used, but we would be able to find out are there any gaps in the legislation that is needed or the processes that are needed. (A Member: Yes.) We have the Committees set up, three Committees, to enquire into matters. We perhaps do not need a special select committee for this, and I think our Committee would be happy to take this on as an inquiry (Interjection and laughter) if the Court so thinks. 6120 Several Members: Hear, hear.
The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson.
6125 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane.
A Member: A member of the Committee.
Mr Henderson: As a member of the Committee – that’s right! (Laughter) – I do not mind 6130 taking on whatever. I would say, Eaghtyrane, to you and the Hon. Court, really, you heard the statement earlier in the session where the work has not been completed because of the complexity and depth and nature of the inquiry into the Countryside Care Scheme and so on. If you put this on to this particular Committee in this format, it will take – may take, and there is a danger of that – some considerable time in answering the investigation in the terms that Mr 6135 Karran has put. There is no doubt about that. It will not be quick and it will not be any time in six months, due to the administration and everything else. I am sorry, as well intentioned as the amendment might be, I think the way forward would be for a special Tynwald select committee, as outlined by the Hon. Member opposite, Mr Karran – a three-Member committee that has a clear run at things and can get on with the job. I do not 6140 mind – we can have it on the desk, and it will not be any time soon, I can see that now, due to the amount of work and everything else that will superimpose itself on top of each other. So, just be warned, Hon. Members, which way you want to play it. I know some of what has gone on in this case, and I too feel very sorry for the petitioner. What I would say, in just examining the situation in a more overview picture, is it is all very well 6145 for my hon. friend in Council, Mr Downie, to say ‘buyer beware’. That is a really discriminatory thing to say to a younger person who has not been in the property market, (Mr Karran and Mrs Beecroft: Hear, hear.) who is not used to buying and selling things, who has not got the savvy that we have got here. We can sit and pontificate about what we would do. The point is, as far as I am concerned, this girl was duped – my opinion. A slick operation was put into train down 6150 there. There may well have been a survey done, but the Hon. Member knows as well as I do that certain walk-through surveys… and what you are advised by your lawyer and what the bank tell ______546 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
you, you go with it. You would not have any cause to argue with what your bank advises you or what your solicitor says: ‘Yes, okay, just have a bit of a survey done.’ We all know the walk-through surveys I am talking about, and they are just that. They are not 6155 in depth, and quite often they do not, or did not used to – I will put that on – involve testing of plaster, damp checks and all the rest of it. It was a basic valuation check. If that passed the test, quite often a bank would be happy to progress it; it would be okay with the solicitor. So, it would not occur to somebody, especially if they were buying a first property, to ask for an in-depth study of a building. I do not know what they are called these days, but those are my 6160 words. They would not think to do that. Plus, if you have not got the money… and this is why people fall into these flat-conversion traps, and I speak with a considerable depth of experience of it, having fallen foul of a flat conversion myself many years ago, so I know the tricks and I know what goes on, and I know the selling patterns and all the rest of it. This girl will not have known what to ask, what to look for. She will have gone on the advice, 6165 whether it was poor, good or whatever, and gone along with the professional people. That is probably what happened – it certainly happened in my case – because you trust people. When you get to a certain situation in life and you have had a few disasters and so on, learnt a bit, had a few errors, a few mistakes, been round the Tynwald Court for a few years and picked up on all the other things – yes, we know what to say now, but the ordinary folk out there do not, so it is 6170 really unfair to put that back on that lady in that way. I would say to the Court think about this one carefully, because a Tynwald select committee in its own right set up to examine this could probably do the job quicker, I think. I will leave it at that, Eaghtyrane.
Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to complete Order Paper
The President: Hon. Members it is after eight o'clock. I could do with your guidance on how 6175 you want to handle Standing Orders.
Mr Henderson: Eaghtyrane, I would like to move that –
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. 6180 Mr Henderson, you do this every week and you are very annoying. Sit –
Mr Henderson: I am allowed to stand up and state my case, Eaghtyrane, the same as any other Member here.
6185 The President: Hon. Member, it is for me to decide, and I will not tolerate this.
Mr Quirk and Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear.
Mr Henderson: I did not do anything! I did not know he was standing up. 6190 The President: Hon. Member, I will tell you who is standing first: that is why I am sitting here! The Hon. Member, Mr Watterson.
Mr Watterson: Thank you, Madam President. 6195 I beg to move that we sit to complete the Order Paper.
Two Members: Hear, hear.
______547 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Mr Quirk: I beg to second, Madam President. 6200 The President: Is that agreed, Hon. Members?
Several Members: Agreed.
6205 Mr Henderson: No, Eaghtyrane. I wish to put my point that we sit to 10 o’clock and re- evaluate it. (Interjections)
The President: We have two proposals, Hon. Members. One that we sit… That is not… Does anyone want to second? The proposal is that we sit to 10 o’clock, which is the restrictive one. 6210 Mr Henderson: And re-evaluate it.
The President: And re-evaluate at 10 o'clock. Those in favour; those against. I will put the other motion, Hon. Members, that we sit to the conclusion of the Order Paper. 6215 Those in favour; against. We will continue, Hon. Members.
Select Committee on Petition for Redress of Sarah Lee Watterson – Debate concluded – Mr Henderson, Mr Thomas and Mrs Cannell elected
The President: I call on the Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood.
Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Madam President. I prefer to support the substantive motion standing in the name of Mr Karran, Hon. Member 6220 for Onchan. I have been in touch with Miss Watterson, who is a teacher and has been under considerable stress and has been off work because of all the problems associated with this property, which is a large flat. There have been members of the Department round: I know that Mr Rowaichi has been 6225 round to the flat. I know that it was not tanked properly, so damp was rising. I know that the shower was constructed of non-proper marine ply or proper materials; it was just normal ply and all the tiles have cracked. The chimney had no ventilation; it was still full of soot, I believe, which caused a lot of damp problems. She has mainly been sold a pup. So I would like to support the motion standing in the name of Mr Karran, that a select 6230 committee of three Members be appointed.
The President: The mover to reply.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, this is a new conversion, a new conversion that had building byelaws 6235 approval, and it is not fit for human habitation. If she was not living in it and owning it herself, it would be a criminal offence. I was going to circulate the list… I really do feel that sometimes, in this House, we do need to start protecting the underdog, instead of the people who are in a position of privilege, and I do think that the situation is this: whether this House decides to go off on this amendment, which I think is crazy, from the 6240 Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk… I think you are a national Parliament. The best thing that can happen to me is for you to vote for that, but that is not going to be the best thing as far as the petitioner is concerned –
______548 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
A Member: Of course it is. 6245 Mr Karran: – because all that will happen is I will be able to kick you even further at a later date because it has not been done. So let’s get away from the playground and let’s look at this issue sensibly. The situation is that that Committee, as the Member has said, has got enough to do. I just really do think 6250 sometimes one of the problems is that some Members have got far too much to do as it is, and giving themselves more, as far as this is concerned… It will be up to this House whether you want to go with the Standing Committee, but if you are doing that, do it in the interests of the petitioner, not just to have a go at the mover of this amendment.
6255 Mrs Cannell: Nobody is having a go.
Mr Karran: I think it is important – (Interjections)
The President: Hon. Members, Mr Karran has the floor. 6260 Mr Karran: I have to say there is a big difference between the Thompsons and this, so I believe that we should support the select committee as far as this is concerned, because I think the woman has had a terrible injustice. (A Member: Vote!) I move. 6265 A Member: Well done.
The President: Hon. Members, the motion before the Court is set out at Item 23 on your Order Papers. To that, we have an amendment in the name of the Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. I will 6270 put to you the amendment first. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The noes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 2, Noes 22
FOR AGAINST Mr Quirk Mr Karran Mr Hall Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Bell Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Teare Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mrs Beecroft Mrs Cannell Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Thomas Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne The Speaker
______549 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 2 votes for and 22 against.
In the Council – Ayes 3, Noes 5
FOR AGAINST Mr Crowe Mr Corkish Mr Downie Mr Wild Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman
6275 The President: In the Council, 3 votes for and 5 against. The amendment therefore fails to carry. I now put the motion as printed on your Order Papers. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Now we seek to appoint a committee of three Members. Can I have nominations, please? 6280 The Hon. Member Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: I propose the Hon. Member for North Douglas, Mr Henderson.
Mrs Cannell: I beg to second. 6285 Mr Quirk: I beg to second.
Mr Henderson: I propose the Member for East Douglas, Mrs Cannell, whose constituency it is. 6290 A Member: I second.
Mr Watterson: I would like to propose the Hon. Member for West Douglas, Mr Thomas.
6295 Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President.
Mr Anderson: I would like to propose the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Hall.
Mr Ronan: I beg to second. 6300 Mr Henderson: I would like to propose Mr Braidwood.
Mr Houghton: I beg to second.
6305 Mrs Cannell: Madam President, I would like to propose the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.
Mr Robertshaw: I beg to second, Madam President.
6310 The President: Hon. Members, if there are no further nominations, we have six names. We seek to vote for a three-person Committee. I call on the Clerk to read out the names of those who are nominated.
The Clerk: Madam President, the following Members have been nominated and seconded: 6315 Mr Henderson, Mrs Cannell, Mr Thomas, Mr Karran, Mr Hall and Mr Braidwood.
______550 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: I just remind Hon. Members that if you vote for more than three, your votes are spoiled – the system will detect it.
Mr Corkish: Big Brother. 6320 A Member: Maybe it will, maybe it won’t.
The President: That’s if it is working.
6325 The President: Yes, if it works today.
A first ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Braidwood 11 Mr Henderson 20 Mrs Cannell 15 Mr Thomas 30 Mr Karran 7 Mr Hall 13
Number of spoilt papers: 1
6330 The President: We have success for two nominations, Hon. Members. (Laughter) The Hon. Member, Mr Henderson, and the Hon. Member, Mr Thomas, have been elected. We will now ballot again for the third place on the remaining nominations.
A second ballot took place and electronic voting resulted as follows: 6335 Vote Results Mrs Cannell 18 Mr Braidwood 2 Mr Hall 12 Mr Karran 0
Number of spoilt papers: 1
The President: In this ballot, the Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell, has been successful and will be the third Member of the Committee, Hon. Members.
24. Petition for Redress of Michael Geoffrey Speers – Debate adjourned sine die
The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to move:
That a committee of three Members be appointed with powers to take written and oral evidence pursuant to sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, as amended, to consider and to report to Tynwald by June 2014 on the Petition for Redress of Mr Michael Geoffrey Speers presented at St John’s on 5th July 2013 in relation to (i) the handling of complaints by Noble’s Hospital and (ii) the independent review of complaints by the Health Services Independent Review Body.
______551 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: We now turn to Item 24. I call upon the Hon. Member for Douglas West, 6340 Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Madam President. I will be brief, if that is okay.
6345 Mrs Cannell: Yes, please!
Mr Thomas: It seems a fact quite well agreed that the Health Services complaints process needs review, and the IRB process is part of that, and in fact I acknowledge that this work is ongoing. 6350 For instance, the complaints-handling process is a significant element of the Francis report into the problems in Mid Staffs, and I believe complaints are also considered in some detail by the Island’s own… [Inaudible]. Moreover, as was confirmed this morning, the West Midlands Quality Review Service’s terms of reference include governance, which includes complaints. 6355 Thirdly, when the Minister accepted my request to make the Independent Review Body annual report public, which was previously a private document, he actually advised us of some issues that he was discussing and which he would make public later on – so that shows there is no question about the openness of the process. There are two points, despite that, that I wanted to state about why a select committee is 6360 needed. The first one is that the petitioner’s points are well made and there are two other – in fact three other – West Douglas residents who have submitted comments to the West Douglas MHKs with concerns about the IRB process behind the Petition for Redress of Grievance that I have put on the table today. I will not read out the specific points, but I wanted you… except to say they are about the process and not of carrying on a complaint. They are about process, they 6365 are about how data is handled and so on, and I think they are valid points. The second point I wanted to say about the need for a select committee is that an independent review process should be reviewed independently – and Tynwald is an independent forum for that review, independent of Government and the Department. The service-provider perspective is paramount, it is important, but the importance of the service- 6370 user perspective is equally valid and we have got to do justice to the service user. Finally, I just wanted to say as well that this select committee process might actually also be valuable to inform the coming together of the independent review body process in Social Care and Health, which perhaps might happen in the coming years, (A Member: Who knows?) given that the IRB process, when it was set up in Social Care, was actually still part of the legislation, it 6375 was still part of a combined Department, so I think it was envisaged at that point that the two would match each other. Thank you.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Skelly. 6380 Mr Skelly: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Speaker.
6385 The Speaker: I just rose to second, to ensure debate, Madam President.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Anderson.
The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Thank you, Madam President.
______552 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
6390 Whilst normally I would have no objection whatsoever to any reasonable scrutiny of any of my Department’s services or activities – at least for, by or on behalf of this Hon. Court – on this occasion I do have real concerns, and I am proposing that this motion be postponed sine die on the grounds it is premature. As Hon. Members will be aware, the public inquiry into the problems encountered at Mid 6395 Staffs Hospital in their foundation trust, which was chaired by Mr Robert Francis QC, produced an extremely lengthy and detailed report with over 290 recommendations. These are of great relevance to not only the English National Health Service but to health services generally, including the Isle of Man. Earlier this year, I set up a working group to consider the implications of the plans for our 6400 Health Services, and I have recently received the report of that group. In addition, Members may also be aware there has been a further report into the National Health Service healthcare standards, prepared by the Rt. Hon. Ann Clwyd, MP for Cynon Valley in Wales, together with Prof. Tricia Hart. These two reports together contain over 50 recommendations for improvements to complaints procedures. 6405 Members may be unaware that the Isle of Man has a different Health Service complaints procedure from England, and that therefore some of these recommendations may not be relevant. Nonetheless, there are at least 28 which are of relevance to the Isle of Man Health Service. Whilst there is still further work for my Department to undertake in relation to these recommendations, it is highly likely that many of them will be implemented and will require 6410 significant changes to our complaints procedure, possibly requiring additional resources. To give Hon. Members an indication of some of the recommendations which we will be considering, they include changes to our regulations to permit complaints procedures to proceed, even if litigation is being proposed by the complainant; the availability of patient advocacy services and independent clinical advice to complainants; the possible creation of and 6415 support for external overview and scrutiny bodies, similar to the English National Health Service, Healthwatch and Patients Association organisations; the publication of anonymised details of each complaint; the use of volunteers to support complainants; changes to criteria for complaints reporting, recording and investigations for reporting of outcomes; the introduction of patient feedback systems; changes to the responsibility for scrutiny of complaints; and 6420 legislative changes to impose new legal requirements on complaints handling. In addition, the proposed merger of my Department with the Department of Social Care may also present opportunities to harmonise our currently separate complaints procedure. As well as the two reports which I have already mentioned, and which are already in existence, there is a third which will be of relevance to us next year. Whilst this is subject to 6425 confirmation by the programme board early next year, the West Midlands Quality Review Service review, which has already started, will be looking at our complaints handling possibly in the third phase of its review. Finally, Madam President, I am aware that the impact of the 2006 Select Committee report on our complaints procedure, and also in response to the petition… was perhaps lessened by the 6430 fact that it reported at a time of significant change in our complaints procedure. I would not wish to see another select committee encounter the same problems. It would be better, I suggest, to reconsider the position at a later date when the necessary changes to our procedures have been implemented. Because it is currently impossible for me to give an undertaking on when the changes to the 6435 complaints procedures will result from these reports, I am proposing that this motion be postponed sine die. In doing that, however, I am concerned lest Hon. Members see this as an attempt to kick this into the long grass: it is not, and I am therefore proposing to make a statement to this Hon. Court in October next year, describing the progress made and the planned changes.
______553 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
6440 In the meantime, there will be ample opportunity for the Hon. Member and others to make submissions to the West Midlands Quality Review, as well as to any of the consultations we may make in relation to changes to our procedures emanating from the two existing reports. Therefore, Madam President, whilst fully sympathising with the intent of the Hon. Member for West Douglas, I propose this motion be postponed sine die. 6445 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Coleman.
Mr Coleman: Thank you, Madam President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 6450 The President: We are now into an adjournment debate, Hon. Members. The Five-Minute Rule will apply. The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft.
6455 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. I will be brief because there is not really an awful lot to say on it. The Health Minister has said that we have a different complaints system, which is quite correct, to the ones that will be referred to in the Francis report. Regardless of all the different streams that he has quoted, I feel that a Tynwald Committee of three will actually give it greater 6460 scrutiny – more in-depth scrutiny – than the West Midlands, so I would not be supporting the amendment by the Health Minister.
Mr Anderson: Surprise, surprise.
6465 Mrs Beecroft: With good reason.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell.
Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Madam President. 6470 I can actually see both sides of the argument here. I can actually understand why the Health Minister is wanting it to disappear, because it is, in a way, premature whilst there is a review going on. Really, a select committee should be established to look into a matter post-review, if the review has not flushed something out. On the other hand, the Hon. Member who has moved it obviously wants to pick up… He has picked the Prayer, the Petition, and he wants to establish a 6475 select committee to scrutinise. My advice in this situation, given that the Minister has probably got the strongest support within this Chamber… Rather than let the matter die, if the Minister’s amendment is successful – in other words it goes; there will be no opportunity for anybody to pick up this Prayer again (A Member: Not true.) – I would actually ask the mover if he would consider withdrawing it at this 6480 point in time.
A Member: Clarification.
Mr Watterson: Point of order, Madam President. My understanding is that if the amendment 6485 is carried and the motion is adjourned sine die – sine die, sorry; you have got me started now, Mr Anderson – then it would still be permitted to come back at a future session; so just not within the current session, as would be the case with any Tynwald Order that had been defeated.
6490 The President: The Hon. Member is correct: it would be able to come back in October next year at the earliest. ______554 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Does any other Member wish to speak to the adjournment? The Hon. Member, Mr Karran.
6495 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I really do think that – as the Member of Health who originally brought forward that action, put the Member of Council on the original complaints committee, as far as the Hospital is concerned – it has served its time. There were a number of things at the time when we did propose this… and why I think we should not go with the adjournment is that even at the time we had concerns about officers… 6500 commitment was more to protect the assets of the Hospital as the complaints officer, than actually doing the job that he was supposed to do. Unfortunately, because it took so many years to get this in, by the time it got in it was at the end of my period as the Member for Health, if I remember rightly. I believe that actually the Government is doing itself a disservice by this, because it will look 6505 like once again you are trying to avoid, dodge, diddle or whatever, as far as outside this Hon. Court. I am sure that the Minister… the mover of this amendment I know often does not have the political acumen as far as what is perceived outside this Court, but he is actually shooting his feet off if we support this adjournment. I actually think you will more likely find yourselves doing yourselves more harm, because they 6510 will say, ‘The situation is that once again they don't want to do it, they want to dodge this issue; when it suits, they will jump through hoops backwards and when it doesn't suit they won’t move.’ I just feel that you are actually doing yourselves harm as a Council of Ministers. I think that the situation is… I am not here to cause you harm; I am here to hold you to account. I know it has been a lousy job over the years, when you look at what you have 6515 managed to get away with, but I do think, Hon. Members, that you do need to really consider the fact that by doing this proposal you are actually doing yourselves a disservice. If the Minister feels that we are not, he needs to put out more clarity as far as why we should support the motion as far as sine die is concerned, because I really do think it would look like you are trying to avoid… and sometimes you actually encourage and inflict this on yourselves as far as this 6520 issue is concerned. I see no harm in having the select committee. I think you will find that, if anything, it should be able to augment the processes that are going on at the present time. This Court will almost certainly go on the different party lines, but I do feel that, in this case, the Minister for Health is doing himself a disservice by proposing this amendment. 6525 The President: If you wanted to speak to the adjournment, you seconded, sir.
Mr Coleman: I reserved my remarks.
6530 The President: You cannot reserve your remarks. I call on the Minister to reply to his motion.
Mr Anderson: Thank you, Madam President. I thought I had spelt it out very clearly in my contribution that I see no problem with having a 6535 select committee. What I am saying is it is premature to have that select committee before the recommendations have come back to the Department from these various workstreams. Quite clearly, there are going to be significant recommendations that will change the process, and to have the select committee before those recommendations are put in place is premature.
6540 A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Hon. Members, the motion is that the debate be adjourned sine die, that means until… (Interjection) No, Mr Thomas can reply to the debate when we come to the end of ______555 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
the debate. We are now voting on the adjournment issue, Hon. Members. Is that clear? The 6545 motion before you is the adjournment amendment – that is that we adjourn this debate sine die, which in Standing Orders terms means until next October at the earliest. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 19, Noes 5
FOR AGAINST Mr Quirk Mr Karran Mr Hall Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mrs Beecroft Mr Anderson Mr Thomas Mr Bell Mr Skelly Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Teare Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mrs Cannell Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Gawne The Speaker 6550 The Speaker: Madam President, 19 votes for and 5 against.
In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Corkish None Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman 6555 The President: In the Council, 8 votes for, none against. The motion to adjourn therefore carries, Hon. Members. We now move on to Item 25.
6560 Mr Thomas: Madam President?
A Member: On a point of order?
The President: Do you want to raise a point of order, Mr Thomas? 6565 Mr Thomas: I just wanted to clarify what we have done, because the original motion, Madam President, talks about reporting back by June 2014, which is obviously impossible, given the adjournment.
______556 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
6570 The President: You have adjourned it until next… (Interjections)
A Member: You pick it up next time.
The President: Are we clear, Hon. Members? 6575 Several Members: Yes.
25. Select Committee on Petition for Redress of Philip James Walmsley – Mrs Beecroft, Mr Turner and Mr Gawne elected
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gawne) to move:
That a committee of three Members be appointed with powers to take written and oral evidence pursuant to sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, as amended, to consider and to report to Tynwald by June 2014 on the Petition for Redress of Mr Philip James Walmsley presented at St John’s on 5th July 2013 seeking a review of the law relating to the care and upbringing of children, especially in cases of broken marriages and other relationships.
The President: We move on to Item 25, Petition for Redress of Philip James Walmsley. I call on the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne.
6580 Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. My constituent, Philip James Walmsley, was successful in his Petition to Tynwald, or the Petition is deemed to be in order. I think we all… Well, I would like to… Maybe I would not like to think – it is the wrong way of putting it, isn’t it? I am sure if not all, then most Members will be aware of the considerable 6585 number of tragic family cases that we come across from time to time in our constituency work. Certainly I am aware of at least half a dozen very tragic cases, and that described by Philip Walmsley is yet another example of this. I could go into huge depth at this stage, but I am hopeful that the committee will be established and the committee will do most of this work. What I would do is refer Hon. Members to the actual Petition, or the Prayer of the Petition. 6590 What Mr Walmsley was seeking was that a committee be established to review the law relating to care and upbringing of children, especially in cases of broken marriages and other relationships, with the special task of examining the ways of introducing law to ensure that, with regard to child residence and contact cases, both parents have equal rights and responsibility over their child where there is no history of domestic abuse, neglect or violence from either 6595 parent. That, to me, seems like a fairly fundamental and straightforward principle. If neither parent has been deemed to be neglectful, abusive or violent, then surely each parent should have equal rights over their child. All Mr Walmsley is asking for is that the committee be established to consider that. He goes on to say that parents must attend a minimum of three compulsory mediation 6600 sessions, before even entering a courtroom, in an attempt to resolve any underlying problems or issues, the cost of which should be shared by both parents. Again, what I am sure most, if not all, Members will be aware of are the tragic consequences of ongoing court battles which become more and more acrimonious between parents who have split up, with their poor children left in the middle. A number of the examples that I have had to deal with in the past demonstrate to 6605 me that the court system is not the best way to resolve these family disputes. If we can get ______557 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
mediation, then this to me seems like a far better way forward. Again, what we are being asked to do here is for the committee to be established to look into this, to see whether such a thing would be achievable. The other part to this, perhaps the unfairness, is that in a number of these cases one party 6610 may be successful in getting legal aid and the other party maybe does not get legal aid. What we know is that our legal aid bill is growing and is high, and actually there is a very strong case that says if we can get these matters resolved outside the courts through mediation it would be far better for the respective warring parents and also far better for the child concerned. Mr Walmsley goes on to say that should mediation sessions fail, both parents should attend 6615 court hearings without an advocate. No parent should be disadvantaged in that one has legal representation and the other does not. (A Member: Hear, hear.) The overall outcome should be based on the child, not the parents and who has the best legal representative. Again, there is an awful lot of sense, to my mind, in what is being proposed there. All we are asking for is a committee to actually look at this to see whether this is achievable, or not. 6620 Mr Walmsley goes on:
‘If both parents can provide a stable family home for the child, shared residence orders should be issued (Shared residence not necessarily meaning time split 50 50, but the same amount of input and promotion in the child's life of both parents and equal rights and responsibility of the child for both parents). Major decisions regarding schooling etc, should be agreed by both parents. If parents can't come to agreements over major decisions, a Deemster will take both parents wishes into account, and make a decision in the best interests of the child. Neither parent should be disadvantaged in a court room, both parents should be entitled to equal time and access to their children, whether the relationship between the parents be acrimonious or not. The Children's contact centre should only be used where there is proven danger to a child, or to establish contact for older children. The contact centre should have massive input in court proceedings and should be able to make decisions themselves without the courts' being involved. They see the day to day aspects of child contact/residence cases.’
I think this is a very reasonable request on the part of our constituent, Mr Walmsley. In no way should my support for this Petition be seen to be me taking sides in the specifics of Mr Walmsley’s dispute, because I do know both families and I do know that both families in this dispute are of very good character. 6625 So I am not making any judgement about who is right and who is wrong; what I am saying is that the system would appear to be wrong. Certainly from my limited experience over 10 years, in every single case that I have had come to me, it seems incredibly tragic and the court system just makes it far more tragic, rather than actually making it easier for the families concerned. So I believe that a select committee would be of great assistance, so that we can look into 6630 these matters. There may well be fundamental reasons why this cannot happen, why we have to continue this very aggressive approach to dealing with family matters, but at least we should allow a select committee the opportunity to consider that. I beg to move.
6635 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Watterson.
Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, Madam President.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Turner. 6640 Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President. I rise to support this motion. As Hon. Members of this Court will know, I brought a Private Member’s Bill through and I appreciated support from both of the branches. That particular Bill has now come into law and I 6645 believe the Appointed Day Order came into effect at the beginning of November, I think it was. I
______558 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
appreciate the efforts of the Department of Social Care, who were the Department responsible for bringing that particular provision in. That, in a way, was a first step in looking at some of the issues surrounding the Children and Young Persons Act. During the debates we had, certainly in the Legislative Council, we were talking about the 6650 whole issues surrounding acrimonious break-ups of families and matters of children. I did explain during those debates that the Bill I was bringing through was not really tackling those particular issues; that was the next step. What I think this Petition is looking for is for us to investigate that next step. The Isle of Man is probably one of the last places in the British Isles to have modernised its legislation in this area. 6655 I think we hear quite a lot in the press about mothers’ rights and fathers’ rights, but the whole essence of the Act is that it is actually the child's rights that are important in the matter, and the child should be at the centre of all that. It is most unfortunate when children are actually used in cases as weapons. I know I did actually receive a couple of abusive phone calls, when the Bill I was bringing 6660 through was being publicised, from some quite angry people who had clearly got issues with their former partner. The whole phone call was surrounding the obvious hatred between the two parties, completely forgetting that there is a child at the centre of this particular issue, and not once during the phone call was the interest of the child, in having contact with both the parents, evident. I think this is where the problem is getting out of control. 6665 I am sure we have all heard cases where the court system has been played with legal aid. Many people cannot afford the legal bills and it is evident that has been abused. That is also an area I think we have to look at, because the mediation, as I understand it, is not necessarily compulsory and it is a mechanism where both parties can seek to try and come to some sort of agreement. 6670 We have also had issues with areas such as the maintenance and the funding, and recent changes to the tax system have caused great problems for those paying maintenance – and indeed we all had letters at the time, all surrounded in matters linked to what this petitioner is seeking. So I think the next step is to have a look at the legislation and see whether any of the points 6675 that the petitioner is asking for here have merit, and see what is happening in other jurisdictions and how they are tackling some of these problems, because they are not unique to the Isle of Man. I think it was commented by the Lord Bishop, during one of our debates in the Legislative Council, that it is a sad state of affairs that unfortunately the breakup of families is becoming all too common and we are hearing stories of how it is normal these days, as if that is okay. 6680 I will not go on any further, other than to say I do support this motion and hope that the Court will support the mover in establishing a committee to look further into this very sensitive but very important area.
The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Downie. 6685 Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President. I do not have a problem supporting the petitioner, but I think there are a few issues here that just need to be teased out. My understanding is that fairly recently… in the UK, there is now no matrimonial or family- 6690 based legal aid available unless there is evidence of violence. That has been a major move over there. I am a firm supporter of mediation, but it would be interesting if the mover can perhaps tell us who actually set the access levels – it is not clear; we see in one part of the Petition reference to the Deemster – and who laid the criteria down? This is an awful situation to be in, and sadly, on all too many occasions it is the taxpayer that 6695 gets left to pick up the bill. I think we need to find a way to avoid that and hopefully be able to move the two parties further down towards mediation and coming up with a compromise; and
______559 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
not, as my hon. colleague, Mr Turner says, use the child as a pawn to play against one parent with the other. No problem in supporting looking into this. It is a good time, because at the present time, as 6700 we speak, there is a review going on into all the other aspects involving legal aid. We have a Legal Aid Committee now and perhaps it would be a good time to actually see if we can find a way where we might be able to save some money in the future. Thank you.
6705 The President: The mover to reply.
Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I thank my seconder and also thank Mr Turner, who rightly points out that we should not forget here that this should be about the rights of the child, rather than the rights of individual 6710 parents. I thank the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Downie, for his comments too. He points out that there is no matrimonial legal aid available in the UK. He is a firm supporter of mediation – which I would imagine most of us are, really, but currently the system does not require this, so I think it is important that we look at this. 6715 I am not entirely sure what the Hon. Member of Council was referring to in relation to who sets the access criteria. If we are talking as to who ought to, which I hope is the point because I am deliberately trying to keep away from the specifics of Mr Walmsley’s case, then that would be a matter for the committee to look into, to see what the most pragmatic and sensible solution is. I cannot imagine that we would be expecting a Deemster to rule on every single 6720 matter – as to what colour shoes the child should be allowed to wear, or whatever it may be – so I think it would depend on the seriousness of the issue as to who would be expected to make that judgment. But again that would be a matter for the select committee to consider. I beg to move. Thanks.
6725 The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 25, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The motion has been successful. We need to appoint a three-person committee. Can I have nominations, please, Hon. Members.
6730 Mr Skelly: I propose Mr Gawne.
A Member: I second.
Mr Quirk: Mr Turner 6735 Mr Braidwood: I second Mr Turner, Madam President.
Mr Singer: I move Mr Quayle.
6740 Mr Teare: Can I nominate the Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan.
Mr Downie: I beg to second, Madam President.
The President: Which one are you seconding, sir? 6745 Mr Downie: Mr Cannan.
The President: Thank you. ______560 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
6750 Mr Turner: I propose Mr Downie.
A Member: I will second Mr Downie.
Mr Watterson: I propose Mrs Cannell. 6755 The Speaker: I second Mr Cannan.
The President: Mr Cannan has been seconded. I think Mr Quayle has not been seconded yet. 6760 Mr Teare: I will second Mr Quayle, please.
A Member: Could I second Mrs Cannell?
6765 Mr Crookall: I nominate Mrs Beecroft, please.
The President: We will have the whole Court nominated shortly. (Laughter and interjection). We have seven nominations, Hon. Members.
6770 Mr Corkish: Close nominations.
A Member: Was Mr Downie seconded?
The President: Yes. 6775 Mr Turner: Mr Corkish… I think not.
The President: Well, I think he was, but… (Laughter) Has someone seconded Mr Downie, just for confirmation? 6780 Mr Corkish: I seconded Mr Downie.
The President: You did. I thought there was a… [Inaudible] Can I call upon the Clerk to read out the nominations. 6785 The Clerk: I have seven names.
The President: Yes, I have seven as well.
6790 The Clerk: Mr Cannan, Mr Quayle, Mr Gawne, Mrs Beecroft, Mrs Cannell, Mr Turner and Mr Downie.
The President: Thank you.
6795 Mr Singer: Could you read those out again, please?
Mr Wild: Excuse me, but is it possible –
Mr Singer: Could we have the names just once again, please? 6800 ______561 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: I will read out the names while the Clerk prepares the computer system. This may be in a different order, but these are the names: Mr Gawne, Mr Quayle, Mr Cannan, Mrs Cannell, Mrs Beecroft, Mr Turner and Mr Downie. Are we proceeding to vote, Hon. Members? Mr Cannan. Mr Downie. Mr Gawne. 6805 Have we frozen the system?
The Clerk: This does not look good, Madam President. (Laughter and interjections). I will give it one more go.
6810 The President: Have we got to start from the beginning?
The Clerk: I fear so.
Two Members: A very good place to start! (Laughter) 6815 The President: In the New Year, Hon. Members, we will have a new system in place.
Several Members: Hear, hear.
6820 Mr Watterson: Paper! (Laughter)
The Clerk: I am afraid it has seized up completely.
Members: Oh, no! 6825 The President: Hon. Members, we will have to resort to a paper ballot. (Two Members: Hooray!) It will take us about an hour! We will read the names when everyone has a ballot paper. Do all Hon. Members have a ballot paper? 6830 Members: Yes.
The President: Will the Clerk read out the names, please?
6835 The Clerk: Mr Cannan, Mr Quayle, Mr Gawne, Mrs Beecroft, Mrs Cannell, Mr Turner and Mr Downie.
The President: You are voting for three Members, Hon. Members. I ask Mr Crowe to be the teller for the Council, please. 6840 Mr Speaker, would you care to nominate a teller?
The Speaker: Mr Ronan to be scrutineer for the Keys, please.
The President: Can we speed it up, Hon. Members, please?
A first ballot took place and voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Turner 24 Mrs Beecroft 17 Mr Downie 4 Mr Cannan 16 Mrs Cannell 9
______562 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
Mr Gawne 15 Mr Quayle 11
6845 The President: Hon. Members, Mr Turner with 24 votes, and Mrs Beecroft with 17 votes, have been elected. We now have to ballot on the other nominations again.
Mr Coleman: Can we have the number of votes? 6850 The President: You can have the votes, certainly, yes, indeed: Mr Downie, 4 votes (Interjection and laughter); Mr Cannan, 16 votes; Mrs Cannell, 9; Mr Gawne, 15; and Mr Quayle, 11. Seventeen votes are required, Hon. Members, to be elected. Does everyone have a paper? (A Member: Yes.) 6855 If the Clerk could remind Members of the names of those still in the election.
The Clerk: Five Members still on the ballot paper: Mr Cannan, Mr Quayle, Mr Gawne, Mrs Cannell and Mr Downie.
6860 The President: Can we have the same teller from the Council, please.
The Speaker: The same scrutineer: Mr Ronan.
A second ballot took place and voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Cannan 10 Mrs Cannell 4 Mr Gawne 15 Mr Quayle 3
6865 The President: Hon. Members, the results are as follows: Mr Cannan, 10 votes; Mrs Cannell, 4 votes; Mr Gawne, 15 votes; Mr Quayle, 3 votes. No candidate has been elected. The procedure, Hon. Members, is that the candidate receiving the fewest votes will be omitted from the list of candidates, so we can delete the Hon. Member, Mr Quayle; or, if you are agreed, Hon. Members, we could delete the bottom two. 6870 Several Members: Agreed.
Mr Watterson: Who would they be again, Madam President?
6875 The President: There were 4 votes and 3 votes respectively for Mrs Cannell and Mr Quayle. (Interjection) You would have to suspend Standing Orders if you wished to remove more than one.
Mr Shimmin: I propose we suspend Standing Orders and remove… [Inaudible], Madam 6880 President.
Mr Quayle: Seconded, Madam President
The President: Is that agreed? 6885 Several Members: Agreed.
______563 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: We have a dissenting voice, Hon. Members, in which case… Did someone say no? 6890 A Member: No.
Mr Corkish: Demand a recount.
6895 Mr Anderson: Mrs Cannell… [Inaudible]
The Clerk: Nobody has asked for a division.
The President: No, they have not asked for a division. We will proceed on the basis that we 6900 remove the names of Mrs Cannell and Mr Quayle from the list. We will re-ballot for Mr Cannan and Mr Gawne. Please circulate the ballot papers. Hon. Members the two candidates for the remaining place are Mr Cannan and Mr Gawne. I call on Mr Crowe to act as teller for the Council.
6905 The Speaker: Mr Ronan.
A third ballot took place and voting resulted as follows:
Vote Results Mr Cannan 14 Mr Gawne 18
The President: Hon. Members, Mr Cannan has 14 votes and Mr Gawne has 18 votes. Mr Gawne is therefore elected to be the third member of the Committee, which will now comprise the Members Mr Turner, Mrs Beecroft and Mr Gawne. (Interjection by Mr Watterson and laughter)
26. Social insurance scheme – Amended motion carried
The Hon Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to move:
That Tynwald is of the opinion that the Department of Social Care should investigate a compulsory scheme of social insurance to cover the costs of old age care; and to report back by July 2014.
6910 The President: We turn now to Item 26. I call on the Hon. Member, Mr Karran.
Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I had a prepared speech, but I am told there is an amendment coming up; so I believe that I will not bother with the prepared speech, but to say that Tynwald is of the opinion that the Department of Social Care should investigate a compulsory scheme of 6915 social insurance to cover the costs of old age and to report back to the July 2014 sitting. When I first proposed this, back in the late 1980s, we were proposing that anybody born on or after 1960 would be covered by a compulsory scheme. Admittedly, the demographics then were bad enough, but they are a lot worse now, and it is a system that will need to have actuarial investigation on a regular basis.
______564 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
6920 I think it is sad that if we had had the vision then, we would have had the opportunity of having at least a third of this Court covered by a compulsory scheme on an issue that must be one of the most heartily fought and contentious issues that we hear on the doorsteps, when we talk to individuals who either are going to lose their house or have lost their house because of the issue of the National Assistance Act issue. 6925 The other points that I think need to be raised… When I raised this issue in 2004, I spoke as far as the explosion and this being the biggest danger to the welfare state, with the exception of some explosion in HIV infection or in drug abuse. I believe that this issue has not changed, but it is still as bad as ever that the biggest danger to our welfare state is the issue of how we fund decent standards of care in our twilight years. 6930 I have tried a Private Member’s Bill, but because we do not have the resources the same as the Council of Ministers, that was a futile exercise as well. I do feel that this Court needs to act responsibly. We see far too much being dumped onto the next administration, and we need to make decisions now. I am only sad, as a senior Member of this Court, that the bullet was not bit back in the late 6935 1980s. It might have given you, the newer Members in this Court, an opportunity to be able to be a bit more flexible as far as the provision of costings, as far as help from the state, when people are losing their homes after sacrificing for decades, trying to buy that asset, only to find it going down the drain. I will not say any more than that, Eaghtyrane, because it is late and it is Christmas, and I do 6940 have a heart! (Laughter) (A Member: Ho! Ho! Ho!) I do hope that Hon. Members will support the proposal in front of me.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft.
6945 Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. Unfortunately, I had intended to be equally kind, but I am afraid I am not going to be, because of something that I just happened to spot the night before last. There is no doubt, in my mind anyway, that the proposal by Mr Karran is necessary, because many people do not plan for their old age in the mistaken belief that their National Insurance 6950 contributions cover their care costs in their old age, and so they do not make independent provision. When they discover that this is not the case, it causes distress for them and their families. There is no doubt that, because we are all, happily, living a lot longer, the retired people as a percentage of our population is bound to increase. In fact, the Chief Minister has warned in 6955 quite strong terms that this is an issue that has to be addressed. I know that he upset quite a number of people, who were made to feel that others view them as a drain on society; when, because of the likelihood that they left school earlier than is now the norm, they have probably contributed, by way of taxes and National Insurance, more than any other generation. I hope this motion does find support tonight, because I would like to see the suggested 6960 investigation into the compulsory scheme by the Department of Social Care to see if it can also clarify just how big a problem we have with regard to the ageing population. It was just over two years ago that the Chief Minister told Manx Radio that he was going to have a working group look at the issue of the ageing population and come up with a true picture of the liabilities. I do not recall hearing the findings of that working group, or indeed anything 6965 about it, but maybe I missed it.
A Member: You did.
Mrs Beecroft: Fine – I missed it. 6970 Anyway, it seems that the dire warnings by the Chief Minister do not entirely agree with the information supplied by the Economic Affairs Division of Treasury, who are responsible for the ______565 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
production of population projections which are used right across Government for a range of different purposes. The Isle of Man Strategic Plan Review 2013 has just gone out to consultation on 6975 6th December. If we look at appendix B, it gives us the population projections regarding retirement age right through to 2036. It also shows the difference using the current model and the model that increases retirement age, over the period to 2026, to 67 for both men and women. Whilst it shows the predictions to 2036, it has not allowed for any changes after 2026, but of course it does not mean that there will not be any. 6980 If we look at the projected difference between this year and 2036, we see that the total population has increased by 12,530. This increase is made up by the following: our young people below 16 years old have increased by 975; the number of working-age people has increased by 5,667; people of retirement age have increased by 5,888; the percentage of retired people of the whole population has increase, from 21.05% today to 24.36% in 2036. 6985 That is just an increase of 3.3% up to 2036, without any changes after 2026. So, it does not seem to me that this is the explosion of retired people that we are being told about, and told is threatening our finances. As I have said previously, I hope that an investigation into a compulsory scheme of social insurance by the Department of Social Care will be undertaken, because I am sure part of that 6990 would be to clarify the correct position; because one thing is certain – if the Chief Minister is right, then all Departments are using unreliable and incorrect population forecasts when formulating their policies. If the projections which have been produced by the Economic Affairs Division are correct, the Chief Minister should apologise and retract his previous statements, which have worried people. 6995 Whatever the true projected situation regarding our retired population in 2036, Mr Karran’s motion is eminently sensible, and I hope he will get the support of this Court. Thank you, Madam President.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Robertshaw. 7000 The Minister for Social Care (Mr Robertshaw): Thank you, Madam President. I wholeheartedly welcome the spirit of intent behind the Hon. Member for Onchan’s motion this evening, but seek in my amendment to adjust the wording in order that it better fits the forthcoming and developing workstreams that I will describe in a moment. 7005 So, Madam President, I wish to propose an amendment which leaves out all words after ‘That Tynwald’, such that the motion reads:
‘That Tynwald requires the Department of Social Care to take into consideration the future funding on care for the elderly as part of its current major review of the welfare system and report back to Tynwald by July 2014.’
If I can just cover the background very quickly, Madam President, I am sure all Hon. Members are very well aware of the fact that we are, as a jurisdiction, a competitive tax regime, which has 7010 a high level of delivery on benefits, welfare, pension outlay and the National Health Service. Clearly, it is going to be very challenging indeed to square the circle. The work involved is both complex and extremely important. This work reaches its most intense period after Christmas. It is, as I think Hon. Members know, cross-departmental between my Department and Treasury. It is employing not one 7015 consultancy company, but a whole range of consultancy companies with various specific knowledge and experience. It will require engagement with the UK government in terms of those elements of our services which are reciprocal. It will, as I have said on a number of occasions, involve major engagement with the public on the options as they emerge, and then eventually, obviously, come before Tynwald. ______566 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
7020 It will also see the factoring in of the progressive move from universality to means and needs testing. But this major task needs to be approached with open and innovative thinking, and it is very important not to be pre-trammelled by predetermined conclusions – and that is why my amendment embraces the spirit of intent described by the Member for Onchan, but allows it to be placed within the context of the work mentioned just before. 7025 I beg to move, Madam President:
Delete all words after ‘That Tynwald’ and insert ‘requires the Department of Social Care to take into consideration the future funding on care for the elderly as part of its current major review of the welfare system and report back to Tynwald by July 2014’.
The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Coleman.
Mr Coleman: I beg to second, Madam President.
7030 The President: Does any Hon. Member wish to speak? The Hon. Member, Mr Ronan.
Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. I will support the amendment in the Minister for Social Care’s name, but I do feel it is a little 7035 woolly in comparison to Mr Karran’s. Mr Karran’s is more direct: it uses the words ‘compulsory scheme’, which I think is a shame was not in this one. In fairness, and given past track records, I think that if we can wait until July 2014 to see any review we are doing on the welfare system, that is fair enough. A phrase used a lot at the moment is ‘demographic timebomb’. I think Mr Karran mentioned 7040 that even then, in 2004 was that…? It has been around a long time and it is a massive concern – and I know this, obviously, with my time in Social Care, is a major concern. Just to say, about being responsible, that I think as elected Members – I have only been here two years; a lot of Members have been here a lot longer than I have – this is a major issue, and to say we need… I think Mr Karran said we need to act responsibly. I think he means as a 7045 population, but I think even more so as elected Members of this Court we need to identify that this, along with other things that we have talked about in the two years we have been in here… We all need to act responsibly on issues like this. I await with anticipation July 2014.
The President: The mover to reply. 7050 Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I am disappointed that we have not got the compulsory part of this. I do believe that time is running out for us in this administration to address this fundamental issue. I thank my seconder for her support to get this debated, and her concerns as far as the 7055 inconsistencies as far as information that is given out are concerned. The problem is I think the Minister does not realise that this is nothing to do with the issue of what we have with the United Kingdom at the present time. This is a stand-alone scheme that would be a Manx scheme, and the issue of muddying the waters with the UK is really of no importance at all. 7060 The reason why I put this down today is I believe that we have got to stop making excuses: this is an issue that should have been done decades ago. My concern is the vote will be taken and the Minister will get his way, under the present system, but I really do not think he has actually done himself a great service by this. This gives a clear undertaking that Hon. Members have got to get off the fence, that they have got to 7065 support a compulsory scheme. They cannot have any lhiam-lhiat-ism on both sides against the middle. ______567 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
But if this is what this Hon. Court wants, as far as an amendment is concerned, then I can wait until July. I am only sorry that we did not get this issue addressed decades ago, because if we had got it done decades ago, back in the 1980s, a third of this Court this would not be a 7070 problem for, and it would actually give the Minister for Social Care a lot more flexibility, knowing that that liability has been done. Eaghtyrane, this Hon. Court, if this is what they want, my concern is… It is twofold, why I wanted this on the agenda. One is that I believe that we should attack the Minister for Social Care when he deserves it, but I believe that issues like this and the unpopularity of issues like 7075 this should be dissipated down onto the rest of us in this Hon. Court, and we should have a clear undertaking to encourage Government to be responsible. I beg to move the motion standing in my name; and quite frankly, let’s see what happens in July. My only concern is that if we do not get on with this job, it will be too near an election and 7080 we will end up with the situation being lost for another couple of years. We need action now. Guernsey came after my proposals. Guernsey was not the right way forward, but Guernsey at least did something responsible as far as the issues are concerned. I hope, Hon. Members, that we will see something positive to be put into action in July. I do not care who gets the complaints about it, but I think it needs to be done. 7085 The President: Hon. Members, the motion before the Court is set out at Item 26 on your Order Paper. To that, we have an amendment in the name of the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw. I will put the amendment first, Hon. Members. Those in favour of the 7090 amendment, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Division called. We will have to have a called vote, I think. The Clerk will call the vote.
Voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 23, Noes 1
FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson Mr Quirk Mr Cannan Mr Teare Mr Quayle Mr Ronan Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mr Cretney Mrs Beecroft Mr Robertshaw Mrs Cannell Mr Thomas Mr Shimmin Mr Crookall Mr Bell Mr Singer Mr Karran Mr Hall Mr Cregeen The Speaker 7095 The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys 23 votes for, 1 against.
______568 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Butt None Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman Mr Downie Mr Crowe Mr Wild Mr Corkish
The President: In the Council, 8 votes for and none against. The amendment therefore carries, Hon. Members. 7100 I now put the amended motion to the Court, those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 23, Noes 0 7105 FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson Mr Quirk Mr Cannan Mr Teare Mr Quayle Mr Ronan Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mr Cretney Mrs Beecroft Mr Robertshaw Mrs Cannell Mr Thomas Mr Shimmin Mr Crookall Mr Bell Mr Singer Mr Karran Mr Hall Mr Cregeen The Speaker
The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys 23 for, 1 against.
In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Butt None Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman Mr Downie Mr Crowe Mr Wild Mr Corkish
______569 T131 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 10th DECEMBER 2013
The President: In the Council, 8 votes for and none against, Hon. Members. The motion as amended therefore carries.
Congratulations to the Clerk of the Council on award of Law degree 7110 The President: Hon. Members, that concludes the business on our Order Papers, but before we disperse I hope you will join me with me in congratulating the Clerk of the Council on being awarded a first-class honours Law degree. (Members: Hear, hear.) (Applause)
Christmas wishes
The President: This is our last sitting before Christmas, Hon. Members, so I wish you Nollick 7115 Ghennal. Merry Christmas.
Members: Nollick Ghennal. Merry Christmas.
The President: The Council will now withdraw and leave the House of Keys to transact such 7120 business as Mr Speaker may place before it.
The Council withdrew.
House of Keys
The Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will now stand adjourned until the next sitting, which will take place on Tuesday, 21st January 2014 at 10.30 in the Tynwald Chamber. May I wish you and your loved ones a very happy festive season. 7125 Members: And to you.
The House adjourned at 9.45 p.m.
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