Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California Berkeley Oral History Center University of California The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California Mark Yudof A Career Teaching Law, Pursuing Equity in Education, and Leading Public Universities Interviews conducted by Paul Burnett 2015-2017 Copyright © 2018 by The Regents of the University of California Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California Berkeley ii Since 1954 the Oral History Center of the Bancroft Library, formerly the Regional Oral History Office, has been interviewing leading participants in or well-placed witnesses to major events in the development of Northern California, the West, and the nation. Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through tape-recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. The tape recording is transcribed, lightly edited for continuity and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewee. The corrected manuscript is bound with photographs and illustrative materials and placed in The Bancroft Library at the University of California, Berkeley, and in other research collections for scholarly use. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account, offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is reflective, partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ********************************* All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal agreement between The Regents of the University of California and Mark Yudof dated July 17, 2018. The manuscript is thereby made available for research purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to The Bancroft Library of the University of California, Berkeley. Excerpts up to 1000 words from this interview may be quoted for publication without seeking permission as long as the use is non-commercial and properly cited. Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to The Bancroft Library, Head of Public Services, Mail Code 6000, University of California, Berkeley, 94720-6000, and should follow instructions available online at http://ucblib.link/OHC-rights. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Mark Yudof, “Mark Yudof: A Career Teaching Law, Pursuing Equity in Education, and Leading Public Universities” conducted by Paul Burnett from 2015 to 2017, Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 2018. Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California Berkeley iii Mark Yudof Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California Berkeley iv Mark Yudof is the former President of the University of California and Professor Emeritus of Law at UC Berkeley, following his retirement in 2016. A leader in education reform in the 1970s and 80s, Professor Yudof spent much of his career teaching law at the University of Texas at Austin, and participated in historic cases of corporate contract law. He rose to become Dean of the Law School there, Provost of the University of Texas system and, after seven years as President of the University of Minnesota, the Chancellor of the University of Texas. From 2007 until 2013, Yudof reorganized the University of California in the midst of the greatest fiscal crisis since the Great Depression. Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California Berkeley v Table of Contents—Mark Yudof Foreword by Richard C. Blum ix Interview 1: April 14, 2015 1 Family background, recollections — World War II — Growing up in West Philadelphia — Violence, race relations, white flight — Secular family, Judaic orthopraxy — Middle-school experience — Competitive experience in Haverford high school, unconscious adaptation thereto — University of Pennsylvania as a catalyst for ambition — Recognized for talents, eclectic interests — Social stratification at Penn — Enjoyment of the “consummate” liberal-arts education — Law school, “closing the fewest doors” — Marriage to Judy Gomel — University of Pennsylvania Law School, 1965-69 — Challenge — Disinterest in needless effort — Flirtation with criminal law — Draft deferral, unfairness of the draft Interview 2: June 25, 2015 30 Clerkship with Judge Robert Ainsworth in Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals — Handled Brown v. Board of Education desegregation cases, draft-resistance cases — Relatively dormant political awareness during 1960s — Honing of writing and legal skills — Context of desegregation cases — Inequality as function of individual racial prejudice — Judge Wisdom’s “affirmative duty” ruling, leading to active desegregation by various means — Legal resistance to desegregation — Classified unfit for service — American Bar Association investigation of the Federal Trade Commission — Decision not to practice law Interview 3: October 22, 2015 53 Involvement in 1960s and 70s cases – Educational Policy and Law — On activist role in court system — Commentary on legal realism — Current domain of the courts — Becoming an assistant professor at University of Texas Law School — On Milton Friedman — “Gathering the Ayes of Texas” – On Rodriguez – On fighting inequity — Experience in the Board of Equalization — Overview of Educational Policy and the Law and working with David Kirp — Uniqueness of 60s and 70s — De facto segregation — Conducting research in the late 1970s — On the difficulty of Law School — Experience in graduate environment — NYU Education Quarterly, 1979 Interview 4: November 6, 2015 82 Period as Associate Dean for Academic Affairs, University of Texas Law School — working with Law School Foundation — incentivizing faculty productivity at Law School — Uses and abuses of academic freedom — Multidisciplinary approach to legal scholarship — Humor in writing and administrative work — Poststructuralism and relativism in the academy and in the law — When Government Speaks, inspiration and basic arguments — Changes in nature of Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California Berkeley vi communication since 1980s — First Amendment, limits of — Gender Justice — Nature of equality under the law — Dean of University of Texas Law School— Fundraising work — Development of the research program at the Law School — Joe Jamail and donor relationships Interview 5: February 11, 2016 108 Pennzoil v. Texaco — City of Austin v. Houston Lighting and Power — Litigation career, trying various cases, not exclusively in contract law — Conflict between academic and development roles for the university and the divisive consequences of acting as a trial lawyer for high-profile cases — Legitimating effect of reputation among trial lawyers and university students — Changing enrolment numbers in law schools in the 1990s — Changes in the market and career structure for young lawyers — Serendipity in the legal profession and in life — Advising the state legislature — Assisting in the development of a school-finance plan — Becoming provost at University of Texas amongst other job offers — Student advocacy — Academy of Distinguished Teachers — Freshman seminar program — Accountability research to foster diversity — Changing fortunes of the public university and challenges of seeking private support — Service mission of public universities — Demography and change in public support of the university — Hopwood v. Texas — U. of Texas campus harassment codes — Culture Wars on campus — Morality and evidence in affirmative action policies — Recruitment to be president of the University of Minnesota — Acceptance of offer despite offer from University of Texas — Adjustment to life in Minneapolis — Initiatives in building up life sciences, technology, architectural preservation and campus beautification Interview 6: July 6, 2017 134 Tikkun olam: the ethos driving Yudof in his work — K-12 initiative, and challenges of “general college” at University of Minnesota — Building up the University of Minnesota in STEM and fields while preventing fiefdoms — Working with governors Arne Carlson and Jessie Ventura — Struggles for equal access to education, a “Marshall Plan” for education in Minnesota — Managing the gap between aspirations for university and the reluctance of Governor Ventura to provide funding — $1.3 billion capital campaign, leadership of Jerry Fischer — Generosity of public in Minnesota in their donations to university — Yudof’s strategies in university development, importance of relationships, brokering donors’ wants and university’s needs — Fraying of the historic social contract with respect to public higher education — Burden of competing claims on the attentions of legislators — On empathy as a quality in leadership — Teaching undergraduates to learn about their views and needs — Handling the Clem Haskins cheating scandal in University of Minnesota Athletics — Transition to Chancellor of University of Texas system , 2003 — Support of University of Texas Chair of Board of Regents Charles Miller — Pull factors of family and new challenge — Meeting Governor Rick Perry — Bringing back talent from Minnesota: Tanya Brown to be vice-chancellor for administration, Geri Malandra Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California Berkeley vii managing accountability — Bringing in outside talent to enhance excellent administrative staff — Gaining control of