REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, February 20, 1968.

Present: The Governor (Sir Peter BILLS FOR SIGNATURE Stallard, K.C.M.G., C.V.O., M.B.E.). In The Governor: Item 1—Bills for the Council: Deemster S. J. Kneale, Signature. The Riding Establishments C.B.E., the Attorney-General (Mr D. D. Bill has been withdrawn; hon. members Lay, T.D.), Sir Ralph Stevenson, have been circulated a letter explaining G.C.M.G., Messrs J. B. Bolton, J. H. why. Manx Time Bill; Falsification of Accounts Bill; Decimal Currency (Isle Nicholls, O.B.E., J. C. Nivison, C. C. of Man) Bill; Judgments (Reciprocal McFee, with Mr G. J. Bryan, C.M.G., Enforcement) () Bill; C.V.O., 0.B.E., M.C., Government Secre- Weights and Measures (Metric System) tary and Clerk to the Council. In the Bill; Interpretation Bill. Keys: The ActIng-Speaker (Mr A. S. The Governor: Now if the Court will Kelly, J.P.), Messrs R. J. G. Anderson, agree, while these six Bills are being H. D. C. MacLeod, E. N. Crowe, R. E. S. signed, we will carry on with our ordi- Kerruish, P. Radcliffe, Miss J. C. C. nary business. Is that agreeable? Thornton-Duesbery, Messrs P. A. Spit- It was agreed. tall, W. E. Quayle, J. R. Creer, T. C. Faragher, A. H. Simcocks, G, T. Crellin, C. L. P. Vereker, J. E. Callister, J. A. MOTION TO SUSPEND STANDING Moore, T. A. Corkish, E. C. Irving, C. E. ORDERS TO INCLUDE SUPPLEMEN- Burke, G. V. H. Kneale, G. A. Devereau, TARY AGENDA—DEFEATED R. MacDonald, Sir- Henry Sugden, The Governor: In that case. if you C.B., D.S.O., with Mr T. E. Ker- will turn to the supplementary agenda, meen, Clerk to Tynwald. No. 1. I call upon the Attorney-General to move the suspension of Standing Orders. The Attorney-General: Your Excel- APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE lency, I beg to move the suspension of Standing Orders to enable the remain- The Governor: I have apologies for ing business on the supplementary absence from Mr. Speaker, whose eye agenda No. 1 to be considered. trouble is still with him, and I am sure The Governor: Is that agreed? the Court would wish a message to be sent hoping that it will be better soon. Mr Nivison: No, sir. I wish to object to the suspensiOn of Standing Orders I also understand that Mr Ffinlo Cork- and the practice of suspending Stand- hill has influenza, and I think we might ing Orders so readily. I understand, send him a message, too, if that is Your Excellency, that a meeting of this agreeable. hon. Court has been held since the last

Apologies for Absence.—Bills for Signature.—'Motion to Suspend Standing Orders to include Supplementary Agenda—Defeated. 816 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 196-8

constituted meeting. I say I understand Mr Kneale; I would second that, sir, because to date, 1, as a member of and support Mr Nivison. I am disgusted this Court, have no knowledge officially with the way this Bill has been handled of such a meeting taking place. I read right from the start. This Legislature in the local papers, I hear on the radio, has been treated like a lot of children, about such a meeting, but I have had and the public have been treated with absolute contempt no notification whatsoever about a over this matter. Now, if it was intended meeting taking place. Incidentally, in to create a panic among the public case any member has got any misunder- and set them speculating as to the standing, I was off the Island a fort- position of the Government, then this night ago, and prior to going I informed. exercise has been a great success. These the Clerk of Tynwald I would be off secretive and bulldozing tactics are the Island, and I have not heard yet something to be absolutely deplored, about this "secret" meeting that was and, as Mr Nivisen has pointed out, held. I believe that some part of it there are other Bills that have gone was subsequently held in public and away for signature—some of them three certain items were transacted, but I months ago--sand they haven't had the would strongly object to this method Royal Assent yet, and yet here is this of concealing information from the Usury Act, which is on this supplemen- members in the first place and from tary agenda, being rushed through, and the public in the second place. I think two days after the Keys and Legislative that this item whereby we are asked Council first heard about it the Royal to suspend Standing Orders, in order Assent was given to it. Now this indi- that a certain announcement of a Royal cates that some prior arrangement has Assent of a Bill, about which some gone on, so this is something that has members know nothing about. There not sprung up an of a sudden, and the are other Bills of extreme urgency that members of this Court should have have had to go through this long sys- been kept informed of the position all tem of awaiting Royal Assent, but it the way through. I have made many is surprising when the will is there how enquiries since our last meeting to find quickly things can be done. I under- out what the true position of borrowing stand that there are certain other Bills in the Isle of Man is, and I haven't still in the pipeline which this hon. been able to find the slightest evidence Court were almost inclined to have a that people are having any difficulty constitutional crisis over, and these in raising money, all the money they Bills have not yet been presented, hav- want at 6 per cent. Local authorities, ing not received the Royal Assent, but the Education Authority and private it is remarkable how things—and we individuals. So are we to understand would congratulate those who have ex- that Government are having difficulty? pedited this, in whose interest I have Because, if so, they are the only ones. yet to learn, not having heard the Even if you raise the interest rate, arguments for and against, and I which is suggested in Usury, by this personally would object most strongly repeal of Usury, then 'there is no to the suspension of Standing Orders, guarantee at all that you will get the and I think this Bill, the same as any money for Government. All you can other Bill, should abide by the rules guarantee is that you will put the rate of the Court which are made in the up on everybody else, because once you interests of the protection of the public. fix a higher level than 6 per mint, that I would oppose the suspension of Stand- will become the level for borrowing in ing Orders. the Island, I would like, Your Excel-

Motion to suspend Standing Orders to include Supplementary Agenda —Defeated. TYNWALD COURT, ,FEBRUARY 20, 1968 817

lency, if you would tell u5 whether by the winter of 1967. This means, sir, you have at any time indicated that if that there was a considerable amount of this Usury Act didn't go through that money due for repayment by the Manx you would dissolve the Keys, or made Government as a result of the borrow- any suggestion to that effect. Thank- ings of the late autumn of 1964. I do you. not know—I am not in the confidence of either Your Excellency'.s Executive The Governor: May I just say that Council or the present Finance Board, that is the very first I have ever heard but I have enough intelligence to deduce of it. It may be a figment of the hon. what has happened, sir. ,The three-year member's imagination. borrowing has fallen due, and the has found it neces- Mr Simcocks; Your Excellency, I rise sary to borrow, not the small sums in support of this resolution. In doing which the hon. member for West Dou- so, sir, I think I should congratulate gla-, speaks of— both the previous speakers for a very a,stute exercise in political gamesman- Mr Kneale: I am talking about mil- ship. They must know as well as any lions, other members know that there has been a real need for this. If we cast our Mr Simcocks: The large sums of minds back, sir, to 1964, shortly after money which are required by the Gov- the first election of the present Gov- ernment just cannot be borrowed at ernment in the United Kingdom, we 6 per cent, sir; When one recognises will remember that difficulties were that 90-day Treasury bills are being dis- caused by an increase in the bank rate counted by the British Government at to 7 per cent. This was at the time this moment at .round about 71, per cent; when it so happened that monies were when one reckons that £7 12s. 6d. is requiring repayment by the Isle of Man a return which can be obtained on re- Government, and an attempt was made, demption on certain British Govern- sir, to repeal the Usury Act by the ment debenture securities; it is quite Finance Board of that time, then. The obvious that some step has got to be fact that that attempt failed was no taken. Now, sir, the reason for the hai.tte doubt due to some extent by the efforts of a fortnight ago was because a difli of' the two members who have spoken. cult position had to be righted as Anyway, the result of it was this. sir, quickly as possible. It seems to me to be that the Isle of Man Government, in a complete misapprehension of the true order to meet its commitments, was poltion of Government on the part of forced to raise the rate of interest the previous speakers. When all is said on Manx Government loans to the limit and done, on the 19th March this year, then allowed of 6 per cent. It was for- when the Chancellor of the Exchequer tunate that they were able to deal with goes to the Parliament at Westminster, the problem at 6 per cent, but it meant he will not have consulted the Greater that very large sums of money were London Council, nor will all the incti- borrowed on a term of three years at vithlal members of the Parliament of 6 per cent, It was hoped that by the Westminster have been consulted in time three years had run their course private as to the contents of his bud- that the conditions would be better and get. It will be a budget which has been that borrowing conditions would be concealed from everybody until the more favourable. However, sir, the re- moment that the Chancellor of the Ex- sult in the event was that a bank rate chequer reveals it. If it were not thus, which had been 7 per cent in the the business of Government would be autumn of 1964 had become 8 per cent made difficult. All that the Executive

Motion to suspend Standing Orders to include Supplementary Agenda —Defeated. 818 TYNWALD COURT, FIEBRUAIRY 20, 1968

Council and the Finance Board have their rates, or borrowings, on deposit, done, sir, is to take a prudent step and the flow of money out of the Islakid in order to deal with a difficult finan- would be the worst ever. Furthermore, cial situation and in order to preserve the local banks and lenders on mort- the credit of this Government. For op- gage would increase their rates and position of the kind which we have thereby increase the cost of living heard from the Council seems to me throughout the Island. Now this is the to be ignoring the facts of life, and point, Your Excellency, clause 1 of the if we accept that the situation is neces- Bill reads—"The Governor may from sary, and I am -certain it is, surely the time to time by order, in relation to course we are adopting today is a right, prudent and statesmanlike way contracts made during the period that to deal with it. the order has effect, vary the rate of lawful interest . ." Does this "in rela- Mr Devereau: Your Excellency, I am tion to contracts" mean that this order not opposing the suspension of Standing can be restricted to specific contracts? Orders, but there is a point that I would We know that in the past Bills were like to make and perhaps get cleared passed by this Court which enabled the up in my own mind. When the chairman terms of the Usury Act, as it was, to of the Finance Board was moving this be varied, so that on one occasion the Bill in another place, he gave many Isle of Man Steam Packet Company cogent reasons proving that there was could borrow at a- higher rate of interest no other course open to us—if Govern- than 6 per cent for some special pur- ment was to continue to borrow—than pose. I recognise the fact that Govern- to pass the Bill. All of these reasons ment is the biggest borrower of money, stemmed from the inability of Govern- and that to borrow the large sums ment to borrow money at the rate of needed it may be necessary to make 6 per cent since the bank rate has been lending to the Government a little more increased to 8 per cent, and we accepted attractive. But I contend that if this this as fact, sir. We know perfectly well ability to offer more attractive terms that this costly measure would never were restricted to Government and have been countenanced if it had not Government only, it would lessen the been felt necessary. Since this has be- fears of so many people that each and come public, however, we learn that as all would be forced to pay the increased far as other borrowers are concerned, rate. I would respectfully suggest that particularly local authorities, the posi- an order by Your Excellency limiting tion is not the same. They are continu- any proposed increase in the rate to ing to borrow all they need at 6 per Government only would meet our needs, cent, and -as far as most of them are and perhaps lessen the hardship that concerned, even since the terms of this some people sense. Bill were published, they find that the flow of money at 6 per cent, for three- Mr Bolton. Your Excellency, I would five-year borrowings, is sufficient for like to say, sir, first of all, that the their needs. The affect of this Bill if it hon. member, Mr Devereau, did refer were restricted to Government borrow- to their needs, and I think that is the ings would have very little affect on point that we should consider. Our need that position. If, however, it becomes is very much greater that the needs of operative in a broader sense, it would the people who are finding it possible create a great deal of unnecessary op- to borrow. In addition to that there is position to public borrowing, in that a gradual falling off in the amount of English companies established on the money becoming available to us, and Island would almost surely increase I have no shadow of doubt that in a

Motion to suspend Standing Orders to include Supplementary Agenda —Defeated. TYNWiALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 819

very short time that the very authori- be confined when • other people can ties who say they can get all they want offer more? It does not really ring true will. find that they cannot get all they to suggest that we should do this. I want— know that there is a misapprehension Mr IVIcFee: By this Act. and I am quite prepared to agree that the hen, member is putting it forward Mr Bolton: Not by this Act at all. in all good faith, but I am sure that he Now the suggestion is being made, sir, would discover that the people who that for some reason, known only to were not able to offer a higher rate of themselves, the Fifnance Board is trying interest would not get the money they to panic the Island into doing something required. they should not do. Is it suggested that I have any desire to pay interest at 6 Mr Irving: Your Excellency, I was per cent, 7 per cent of 8 per cent, when going to say what my chairman of the I could borrow it at 3 per cent? I have Finance Board has already said. I think always been accused of being the other the ideas of the Douglas Town Council way round. I don't come forward with are absolutely Pricredible. After what suggestions that we should make Gov- I can only call some transcendental ernment more expensive unless I find that it is absolutely essential to do it, meditation under their guru Alderman and my colleagues and I on the Finance Kaneen. (Laughter.) The "financial Board, and I am quite sure the mem- gnomes of Ridgeway Street" have now bers of Executive Council. take the same produced a startlingly new revolutiou view. Now, just one other point which in economic theory that people are I would like to mention in view of the going to offer money to the Corporation fact that the hon. member did mention at 6 per cent. when they can get 7 per it, gad that is the restriction of this cent from Government just around the order that is proposed to the Govern- corner. Now I wouldn't have thought ment only. If Government is going to it was possible, Your Excellency, that offer a rate of interest which may be a responsible body such as the Douglas Town Council could believe that Manx 64 per cent., 7 per cent., per cent., and the Douglas Corporation is only people were so stupid. They would soon find out that they were not. Now we going to offer 6 per cent, who is going to get the money? cannot say one rate for the Government and one rate for everybody else, be- Mr Kneale: The Douglas Corporation. cause the other authorities who are bor- rowing small amounts now, and have Mr Bolton: They will not get the done in the past at 6 per cent, may money. (Laughter.) It is so easy for not be able to borrow large amounts, people with so little experience of and Government certainly can't. We financial affairs to.imagine that people have tried it, and it just doesn't work. go around giving their money away. Now I think we have also got to con- They don't; the man who offers the sider the private individual and busi- most will get it, and Government will ness organisation on this Island as get it. It would be utterly unfair for well as the local authorities. I don't Government to suggest any such move. know if hon. members are aware, but It would be quite impossible for other one trust in this Island has been calling people to borrow at all, unless they in mortgages in the past few weeks, had this power. Now, if an order is Now can hon. members appreciate that made, there is no reason why they if mortgages are called in, presumably shouldn't continue to offer 6 per cent because of the rate of interest. where and see if they get it. Why should they are people going to borrow money to

Motion to suspend Standing Orders to include Supplementary Agenda —Defeated. 820 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 take over the mortgage at 6 per cent? ment can operate in days of high bank They cannot do it. It is all very well rates at the artificial low level of 6 certain people complaining that their per cent. We have heard suggestions mortgage interest will go up because today from the hon. member for West of this Usury Act alteration, when what Douglas—"Did you say, sir, that you they ought to be considering is if the would dissolve the ?"— rate doss not go up they might very I told certain hon. members privately well lose their mortgages. which they that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot repay. I am surprised that the —meaning you, sir—is not given the chairman of the Finance Committee of money that you need to govern this the Douglas Corporation, Alderman Island, I would have thought that the Kaneen, should take the attitude he has. Lieutenatit-Governor would have had He, after all, was a member of the no alternative but to dissolve the House Finance Board in this Court and bor- of Keys and find a House of Keys that rowed money, quite rightly, which is would vote him the money to carry on now due for repayment. One would have the Government of this Island. (Laugh- thought that he would take the view ter.) Now hon. members may laugh, as that Government must be put in a have said, the Government is in a position where it can either hold those strong financial position and will re- debentures or repay them. I am shocked, main so, but hon. members are aware too, that certain members of this hon. that we need money, not only for some Court should be playing with politics of the .schemes we have heard about— at a time like this. Every member of the Grand Island, the Ramsey Shipyard this Court has been told the true posi- —but we need money. to pay for schools, tion— to pay for Social Services capital ex- penditure, to pay for hospital capital Mr Nivison; No, sir. expenditure. All this money is needed, Mr Irving: Hon, members who were sir, and who can blame the people of absent from this Court—not on the busi- the Isle of Man, whether they be long- ness of Government—that is their own term residents or new residents, if they fault, sir. invest this money off the Island. Be- cause, it is not a question of loyalty to Mr Nivison: Standing Orders request me, sir, it is a question of the Govern- that they should be notified. ment of the Isle of Man realising that it is ridiculous to impose a 6 per cent Mr Irving: A.nd the hon. member limit. None of us want to pay more in knows very well that if he wished to interest. I, myself, will have to pay find out the true position he would be more, and that is why I have to decide told so, and would be told on his whether it is better for me to get away return to the Isle of Man. with 6 per cent instead of perhaps 7 Mr Nivison: I have had no indication per cent, and at the same time prevent whatsoever. the Government of the Island from functioning. Hon. members know there Mr Irving: Now they are playing is no alternative and they know that politics in this matter. These hon. mem- fast action is absolutely necessary. bers know very well there is no alter- native. The Isle of Man Government, The Attorney-General: Your Excel- I believe, is in a solid financial position. lency, I am not going to repeat the I do not believe there is the slightest excellent arguments for the suspension reason for loss of confidence in the of Standing Orders which have been Government, but I don't believe that made by the hon. member, Mr Irving, this Government or any other Govern- and the hon. member of the Council,

Motion to suspend Standing Orders to include Supplementary Agenda —Defeated. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, I968 821

Mr Bolton, and the hon. member for Against: Messrs Canister, Kneale, Rushen, Mr Simcocks. I would just Corkish and Kelly-4. say, sir, that it is of vital importance that this matter be got through as The Acting-Speaker: The resolution quickly as possible. Nobody is going to is carried in the Keys, Your Excellency, lend money to the G-overnment until 19 in favour and four against. tney know what the rate of lawful in- terest is going to be. They know there In the Council—For: The Lord Bishop, is a very high probability that the rate Deemster Kneale, the Attorney- of interest will go up, and until they General, Sir Ralph Stevenson, know what it is, not a penny piece Messrs Bolton and Nicholls-6. is goal g to come to the Isle of Man. Against; Messrs Nivison and McFee So I do ask hon. members to suspend —2. Standing Orders to allow this vital piece of legislation to be completed. The hon. The Governor: It fails in the Legis- member for West Douglas, Mr Devereau, lative Council to get the necessary seven asked can an order not be restricted votes. Standing Order 206 "requires to specific contracts?—No, sir. In a pre- 16 members of the Keys and seven vious Bill that was before the legisla- members of the Council to suspend ture some time ago, there was a pro- Standing Orders." I will just take my vision for that, but there is no such pro- diary out before we go to the next vision in this Bill. The hon. member item. of the Council, Mr Nivison—I would remind him that there was a meeting of Legislative Council at which the matter was explained fully, and that His Ex- cellency can, of course, convene Tyn- PAPERS LI,D BEFORE THE COURT wald at any time, and I would say The Governor: Item 2 of the agenda. that if the matter is not passed today, I call upon the Clerk to lay papers— and I say it is of vital importance, surely all hon. members must be able to The Clerk: I lay before the Court— see that, if it is not passed today, I Tourist Accommodation—Improvement would say that His Excellency will of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, almost certainly be advised to call a 1968. meeting for a week today. Representation of the People Acts, 1951 The Governor: Now is it agreed that to 1966 — Election Rules Amend- we suspend Standing Orders for the ment Order, 1968. Purposes of supplementary agenda no. Isle of Man Diseases of Animals (Pre- 1? vention) Act, 1948 — Foot and Mouth Disease (Restriction of A division was called for and voting Sports and Shows) Order, 1968. resulted:— Whitley Council Agreement — Isle of In the Keys—For: Messrs Anderson, Man Civil Service. Amendment of MacLeod, Crowe, Kerruish, P. Rad- Salary Scales, Professional and cliffe, Miss Thornton-Duesbery, Technical and General Division. Messrs Spittall, Quayle, Creer, (Government Circular No. 3/68.) Faragher, Simcocks, Crellin, Vere- ker, Moore, Irving, Burke, Deve- Church Bill, 1968 — Report of the reau, MacDonald and Sir Henry Ecclesiastical Committee of Tyn- Sugden-19. wald.

Papers laid before the Court. 822 TYNWALD, COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1068

Road Traffic Act, 1967 — School Cross- was published in the normal way con- ing Patrols (Prescribed Places) current with its circulation to the hon, Regulations, 1988. members of the Legislature. (4) The sitting of Tynwald on 6th February, Local Government (Special Drainage 1968, was convened in accordance with Districts) Acts, 1952 and 1959 - the provisions of Standing Order Order made by the Isle of Man 7(4) (Ib) of the Standing Orders of Tyn- Local Government Board constitut- wald by message, approximately two ing the Port-e-Vullen, Maughold, hours ibefore the sitting took place. (5) Special Drainage District. I can not give the assurance sought by the honourable member in the fifth paragraph of his question, as this is a matter for the branches of the Legisla- ture or Tynwald to decide for them- USURY ACrr, 1968—QUESTION BY selves. In this recent instance 1 would MR NIVISON. remind the honourable member that the The Governor: Items 3 — Questions. necessary action was taken by both No. 1, the hon. mem'ber of Council, Mr branches and by Tynwald to suspend Nivison. Standing Orders to enable the Bill to proceed. Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the question standing in Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, may I my name: (1) When, and by whom, was ask a clarification on one of the ques- it decided to amend the Usuary Act ? tions? I think you stated that the Bill (2) When were the Legislature in- was circulated in the normal way. formed of this decision? (3) Was the intention to introduce the legislation The Governor: The Bill was published conveyed to the public before it was in the normal way. presented to the branches? If not, was Mr Nivison: I have not seen, as a it concealed by design or accident? (4) member of . the Legislature, a copy of How much notice was given to members this Bill to date, and if it was published of Tynwald about the special sitting on in the normal way this is certainly news Tuesday, 6th February? (5) Will Your to me, and I am sure it is news to many Excellency assure the Court and the members of the public. No copy has public of the Isle of Man that the exer- been circulated to me. It may have cise of passing Bills through the three been handed round. This is not the readings in both branches and the sign- usual way. As a rule the public and ing in Tynwald all on the same day, the press and all members receive a contrary to the provisions of Standing copy. I have not seen a copy to date. Orders, shall not be repeated? The Governor: I am sure the Clerk The Governor: (,1) and (.2) The will rectify this omission with speed. decision to amend the Usury Amend- ment Act, 1931, was taken by both branches of the Legislature when each branch passed the Usury Bill, 1968, on POWIERS OF GOVERNMENT Tuesday, 6th Fdbruary, 1968. (3) The TREASURER — QUESTION BY intention to introduce legislation was MR NIVISON. not conveyed to the public before the Bill was presented to the branches, and The Governor: Question 2. The hon. on a suibject such as this it would be member of Council, Mr Nivison. inappropriate to give advance publicity to Government's intentions. The Bill Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, I beg

Usury Act, 196&—Question by Mr Nivison.—Powers of Government Treasurer —Question by Mr Nivison. TYNNITALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1068 823 leave to ask the question standing in BORDER TELEVISION— my name: (1) Would Your Excellency QUESTION BY MR SIMCOCKS. convey to the Court the powers of the The Governor: Question No. 3. I call Government Treasurer, and in particu- upon the hon. member for Rushen, Mr Simcocks. lar — (a) the relationship between the Governor as Chancellor of the Ex- Mr Simcocks: I rise to ask the ques- chequer and the Treasurer; (b) the tion standing in my name, sir: What relationship between the Finance Board steps are you prepared to take to pre- vent the use by Border Television of and the Treasurer; (c) the relationship Real Estate in the Isle of Man for the between 'Boards of Tynwald and the purpose of disseminating programmes Treasurer? (2) Would Your Excellency calculated by their obscenity and lack consider deferring the appointment of of literary merit, as personified by the a new Treasurer until such time as Tyn- current series "Rogues- Gallery", to cor- rupt the youth of the Island? wald has had an opportunity to study these powers and the possible delega- • The Governor: I have not 2een these tion of these powers to other senior programmes myself and cannot assess Government officers? their quality but I have referred this matter to the Broadcasting Commission The Governor: The most convenient to consider whether representations way of replying to this question will be should be made to the Independent to read out Section 9 of the Finance Television Authority which exercise Board Act, 1961, which is as follows:— control over the standards of indepen- "9. (1) The Treasurer shall be adviser dent television broadcasting. to the Governor and the Board on all Simcocks: Your Excellency, may financial matters." The Board being I ask a supplementary question ?.Is it the Board of Finance. "(2) The Treas- not a fact that Section 3(i)(b) of the urer shall be the permanent head of the Broadcasting Commission (Isle of Man) Finance Department of Government and Act, 1965, lays down that the proper shall have a right of direct access to the procedure for the Cornrnst;ion when Governor on all matters relating to the dealing with the quantity and quality finances of the Government. (3) The of programmes broadcast to the Isle a Treasurer shall be the normal channel Man, their action is to refer the matter of communication between the Gov- to you, and if you refer it to them surely ernor and the Board, and [between the their duty is to refer it 'back to you? Board and every designated body and Would it not be suitable, sir, if the for that purpose shah attend the meet- newly-appointed representative to the ings of the Board and may attend any Isle of Man General Advisory Council meeting of a designated body and shall of the Independent Television Authority do so when requested by the chairman was asked to raise this matter on the of that body. (4) The Treasurer shall basis that this is a Programme which cause proper books of account to be offends the taste of the Isle of Man, kept with regard to all public monies would that not be an alternative way of the Government and shall keep such of dealing with it? separate and distinct accounts as may be directed by the Governor." I do not The Governor: The point is that I think it would be desirable to defer the have asked the Broadcasting Commis- appointment of a new Treasurer. The sion to look into.it. If they think repre- absence of the office-holder has already sentations should he made I shall then given rise to administrative difficulties. make them.

(Border Television—Question by Mr Simcocks. 824 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1068

Mr Simcocks: One other question if I with underground low-tension feeders. may ask it? Is it not a fact, sir, that This has the result in greatly increasing it is a licence issued by the Postmaster- the captial expenditure, and at the General which has made it possible for moment over £100,000 per year is 'being this filth to be disseminated within spent on this work. Developers of the Isle of Man? housing estates and new consumers are being asked for substantial contribu- The Governor: That supplementary tions towards the cost of these supplies, contains matter not in the original ques- but the majority of the cost of this work tion, It is therefore out of order. has to be borne by borrowings and sub- sequently all consumers pay the interest and sinking fund charges by means of the tariff charges. The cost of 11,000- SUPPLY OF iELECTRICITY TO volt cable alone is nearly £2 per yard. CRONK-Y-VODDY- Sub-station switch gear cost approxi- QUESTION BY MR MACLEOD. mately £1,200, the transformer £1,000, and the low-tension equipment about The Governor: Question No. 4. The £250. hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr MacLeod. The Governor: Will you be much :onger 'because we might send the rest Mr McLeod: Your Excellency, I beg in a written reply? 'o ask the chairman of the Electricity Board the question standing in my Deemster Kneale: Can you get to name: In view of the number of electric Cronk-y-Voddy? (Laughter.) power failures each winter in the Cronk-y-Voddy district, coinciding with The Governor: Will you leave it and snowfalls and consequential dismantling circulate it later in the day? of overhead Aries, will your Board con- -21der my request, which is made with Mr Faragher: I have got one sentence. ample knowledge of the cost involved, to substitute in this area an under- The Governor: Right. ground electrical supply. Mr Faragher: Because the person ask- Mr Faragher: Regarding the critic- ing the questions seems to know all the isms of the continuity of supplies in the answers himself, and has no need to ask districts in the Isle of Man which we them. The reason being that the area know do occur, over the last 10 years he wishes to underground is Cronk-y- steady replacement of the 33,000-volt Voddy area, approximately five miles of high-tension conductors have taken 33,000-volt cab:e at an approxiMate cost place. Heavier and stronger wires have of £80,000 to £90,000, four miles of been erected to cover the future expan- 11,000-volt cable, £25,000 to £30,000; sion of load, with less chance of break- the low-tension length, quite unknown, age. Approximately 75 per cent. of the at least £25,000, the total to under- work has been done and a larger pro- ground cables supplied in the Cronk-y- gramme is scheduled to be carried out Voddy area would amount to £130,000 this Spring. Due to planning restric- or £145,000, so you see it seems ridicu- tions on the erection of overhead lines, lous when you only have 89 consumers most of the new extensions are being in that area, 45 of which were connected laid underground with networks of free of charge on farm schemes; 44 paid underground 11.000-volt cables are being for connections. One-fifth of the 230,000 Said, and in larger town areas units consumed in the area was con- with extra sub-stations and associated sumed by one large consumer, one-fifth

Supply of Electricity to Cronk-y-Voddy--Question by Mr MacLeod. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 825 of it, and the second largest consumer— Braddan Primary School and Crosby the questioner happens to be the second Primary School respectively and how largest consumer. (Laughter). There are many in each case reside within half- four consumers who pay under 100 units a-mile of such schools? (2) How many per annum, and there are 12 customers of these children come from the Balla- who take between 100 and 500 units garey/Glen Vine district? (3) In view per annum, so you see it does not justify of tni.-; information, would your Board undergrounding the cable in that par- consider how appropriate it would be ticular area. Eventually we will get to to create a school at Ballagarey or Glen it, I hope. Vine in place of the Braddan a0d Crosby Schools? Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, I have, heard some questions answered in this Mr Kneale: Your Excellency, the Tynwald, but I have never heard one number of children attending Braddan answered like that before. It is the School is 134, the number living within greatest load of rubbish I have ever half-a-mile of the school is six; the num- heard. ber of children attending Crosby School is 35, the number living within half7a- The Governor: Is this a supple- mile of the school is :,even. The number mentary? of children from the Ballagarey and Glen Vine district attending Braddan Mr MacLeod: A' sort of supplemen- School is none, and Crosby School 14. tary, yes. (Laughter.) The only ques- And the third part of the question— tion I asked 'was whether it was pos- while the Board are at all times pre- sible to underground the cable at pared to give careful consideration to Crorik-y-Voddy. I did not want all this the kind of suggestion made in this trash about what it would cost in Port question, they do not consider that the St. Mary and Port Erin, I was talking above information provides any justifi- about Cronk-y-Voddy, and I may inform cation for its immediate adoption. The the chairman of the Electricity Board Board have always to bear in mind here and now, sir, that .people who were that both the existing schools have had connected free of charge are paying long history of service to their local over and over again for the connection.. communities, and in order to justify They would have been better if they the adoption of this suggestion it would had paid for it then, instead of paying be necessary to show that it would meet for it over and over. So he can put that the educational need of a large, widely in his pipe and smoke it! scattered; area between Douglas and St. John's better than do the existing r,chools. Since out of the total of 169 pupils attending the two existing ERECTION OF NEW SCHOOL AT schools only 14 come from the Balla- BALLAGAREY OR GLEN VINE— garey/Glein Vine area, there would ap- QUESTION BY MR MACLEOD pear to be no justification for siting the school in the places suggested in the The Governor: Question No. 5. The Que.-lion. The existing schools serve a hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr MacLeod. widely scattered area—Braddan School: Union Mills, 44; Strang, 23; Vicarage Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, I beg and Saddle Roads 13; West Baldwin, 12; to ask the chairman of the Board of East Baldwin, 5; Abbeylands, 12; Cronk- Education the question standing in my bourne, 8; Mount Rule, 6; and various name: (1) Would the chairman indicate other districts, 11; and the Crosby the total number of children attending School: Ballagarey, 8; Glen Vine, 6;

Erection of New School at Ballagarey or Glen Vine—Question by Mr MacLeod. 826 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1668

Ballavitchell, 7; Crosby, 5; Braaid and obtain public transport which would East Foxdale, 7; Ellerslie, 2. It will be have taken them into Douglas? (2) seen from these figures that if the Would the hon, member please indicate existing schools were replaced by one wnat measure of co-ordination and co- new school, wherever it was sited, it operation exists between the Manx would be conveniently situated for only Electric Railway and the Isle of Man a minority of the pupils. In other words, Road Services and Douglas Corporation the new school would not materially m- bus undertaking, and how, if improve- alice the amount of travelling at present ment can be effected, such improvement undertaken by pupils of the existing might be achieved? schools, and might eve1/2 increase it. Now to replace both schools and also The Governor: The chairman of the to plan for future developments, it Mdi-ix Electric Railway Board or the would be necessary to build a one- acting-chairman. Can she be acting class entry junior mixed and infant while the real chairman is present? school. This would cost approximately £100,000 plus the cost of the site. At Sir Henry Sugden: Well, I would say Braddan we have got two relatively I would like my hon. vice-chairman to new classrooms and two more at present continue the excellent work she has under construction. It is quite likely done. She can answer this question at that at some time in the near future first hand and I could not. furtner extensions to this school may be necessary. But Braddan could be Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Your Excel- converted to a full one-class infant lency, may I first thank the hon. mem- scnooi at less than half the above ber for Ramsey, Mr Acting-Speaker, for figure. Now, information received from asking this question and so giving me toe Local Government Board indicates the opportulnity to express to this hon. that further development at Glen Vine Court and to the public the very great and B'allagarey will be at the same concern and regret to the members of g,.adual pace as that over the last my Board and to our staff that these (2ecade. The area of rapid development 48 passengers suffered such incon- was far morn likely to be in the region venience on the morning of February of Union Mills and the Strang. 6th, The circumstances were these: Road conditions were very bad following the heavy snowfall on the previous day. Many persons who would otherwise have travelled into Douglas from M.E.R. PASSENGERS—QUESTION Onchan in their own cars travelled in- BY MR KELLY stead by 'bus. The 'bus coming down from Onchan via Port Jack on to the The Gihernor: Question No. 6. The Promenade, which normally picks up hon. member for Ramsey, the Acting- our passengers at 8-36 a.m., was there- Speaker. fore full, with some standing passengers. It stopped at Derby Castle and allowed Mr Kelly; I beg to ask the chairman two persons to alight, but none to get of the Manx Electric Railway Board the on. The 'bus due down on to the Prome- question standing in my name, sir: (1) nade at 8-40 from Hil'berry failed to Will the hon. member give an explana- appear at all. The passengers from the tion of the circumstances in .which 48 Manx Electric Railway were therefore persons who arrived at Derby Castle stranded. Some got lifts or walked, and on the Ma,,ix Electric Railway at 8-30 the remainder got the 9-5 a.m. Corpora- a.m. on the 6th February, could not tion 'bus from Derby Castle. This was

,M.E.R. Passengers—Question by Mr Kelly. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20,1068 827

a long wait on a bitterly cold morning. had the heavy snowfall the Manx Elec- We apologise most sincerely to them tric Railway carried about 300 people for the inconvenience they were caused. when so much other traffic was brought Part 2: There has for many years been to a complete standstill. For such times a gentlemen's agreement between the we nave reached an understanding with Isle of Man Road Services and the the Douglas Corporation 'bus undertak- Douglas Corporation 'bus undertaking ing, and we trust our passengers will with the Manx Electric Railway, and the never be so stranded again. latter has been able to publish in its time-tables the times of connecting Mr Callister: Your Excellency, may 'buses along the Promenade for all cars I ask a supplementary? Had I known departing from or arriving at Derby that the distinguished member for Garff Castle. On January 8th, last, however, was answering, I might have consulted the Vile of Man Road Services modified her before asking it, but I would like to the Onchan services after 6 p.m., can- give her the opportunity of answering celling some and re-routing others, and my question now. Is it a fact that the this left four cars in the evening with Manx Electric Railway are competing no 'bus connections. The Douglas Cor- in fares with the Isle of Man Road Ser- poration 'bus undertaking. whose staff vices? we have found unfailingly courteous a',Id co-operative, has put on an extra The Governor: This introduces matter 'bus at 7-5 p.m. from Lord Street to not in the original question. Derby Castle and return, and this sup- Mr Callister: With due respect, sir, plies two important connections. The the second question—the co-operation last two cars into Douglas in the eve- between the Isle of Man Road Services ning, however,' still have no connections. and the Manx Electric Railway— As hon., members will be aware, this matter was -raised by Mr Speaker at The Governor: It is not about fares. our last sitting, and Your Excellency stated that you had already raised the Mr Callister But it mentions the co- matter with the Road Traffic Commis- operation between them, and I should sioners. My Board is grateful to Your say fares are very vital. Excellency and looks forward confi- dently to a constructive reply. Hon. Mr Nicholls: Your Excellency. may I members will also be aware that there ask a supplementary question ? First of is a Tynwald Committee examining de- all I would like to congratulate the tails concerning public transport at this hon. vice-chairman of the Manx Electric present time, and my Board looks for- Railway Board on the very full and very ward also to its report and especially to useful information she has given the any recommendations that may be ad- Court, but much of that information I vanced to ensure closer integration of would say, with respect, strays rather transport in the Isle of Man, and con- from the question which deals solely sequently better facilities to the travel- with that particular morning of Febru- ling public. In the meantime, the chair- ary 6th. Now, would the hon, member man of the directors of the Isle of Man agree that in normal circumstances— Road Services has invited us to confer that is excepting for occasions like the as to immediate steps that can be taken weather conditions on February 6th— towards closer co-operation—an invita- that the Onchan service which calls at tion my Board has gladly accepted. For Derby Castle at 8-36, I think, in the times of emergency, and to be prepared morning, provides all that is normally for these we have seen is vitally im- required to accommodate the Manx portant—dn the 5th February when we Electric Railway passengers?

M.E.R. Passengers—Question by Mr Kelly. 828 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

Mr Corkish: Your Excellency, I would LOCAL AUTHORITY HOUSING just like to ask a little question. Is not DEFICIENCIES—QUESTION BY t a fact tnat ordinarily there are about MR CALLISTedi 12 people travelling on the electric car, area on this occasion, with the motor The Governor: Question No. 7. The cars being stranded in Douglas, there hon. member for North Douglas. was somewhere about 48 people who travelled on the Manx Electric from Mr Callister: May I ask the question outlyleg districts and since this disap- standing in my name, sir? (1) /Li answer pointment of passengers that there has to a question by the hon. member for been more co-operation now between Ramsey, Mr Kelly, in Tynwald on 12th outside of the Island informing the December, 1967, the chairman of the station, and of people in case of an Finance Board stated that the total eme_goecy, which should happen again housing deficiency payments to the it it ever happened again? several functioning housing authorities for the year ended 31st March, 1967, The Governor: Would you like to amounted to £19,418, Will you kindly reply to those two? inform the Court— (a) the amount of 7urpluses held by. local authorities and Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Yes, Your the Local Government Board on their Excellency. First to the hon. member hotr.fng accounts on that date? (b) the for North Douglas regarding fares. We amounts held in their respective re- do not set out to be in competition to serve funds for housing deficiencies on the Isle of Man Road Services in fares. that date? (2) Is it a fact that certain In the rummer, I think it is known by local authorities have appropriated sums this hon. Court, our fares are higher, from surpluses from housing to general in the winter they are lower. I do not revenue? And, have surpluses on the know what conclusion can be reached Local Government Board housing been from that. But this will naturally, I transferred to general revenue? (3) In hope, definitely come up in our con- view of the fact that Douglas housing sultations together. The hon. member estates have shown a surplus each year of Council—yes, under normal condi- since 1963. and have a surplus of t'.orbs our passengers can perfectly, suc- £26 427 on rent account and £55,565 on cessfully and comfortably, board the repairs fund, why has the Local Gov- 'bus at 8-36, but it is regarding the ernment Board insisted on increased emergency conditions that we feel we rents by the Douglas Corporation? should have some arrangement which we can put into action in case of The Governor: The chairman of the emergency, and that we now have been Local Government Board. able to arrange. The hon. member, Mr Corkish—yes, ordinarily there are only Mr P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, bon. comparatively few passengers from that members will be well aware of the fact early morning 'bus—they are catered that whether there is a deficiency or for. We hope now that the arrangements surplus of Local Government houses is that the Douglas Corporation 'bus un- a very debatable point. All members dertaking and Isle of Man Road Ser- will be aware that houses have been vices have enabled us to arrange, will built under different schemes, some with be sufficient to meet the needs. Government: outright grants and others from borrowing, but to short-circuit this Mr Kelly: Your Excellency, could I debate as such, I will answer the matter juet thank the hon. member for those of these questions exactly as they are excellent replies? asked. Paragraph (a) — the amount of

Local Authority Housing Deficiencies—Question by Mr Canister. TYNWALD COURT, PEBARUARY 20, 1968 829 surplus held by local authorities — the cants for houses. This is bound to in- Commissioners of the town of Castle- crease if they continue to offer a two- town, the Commissioners of the village bedroomed house at Anagh Coar at £.1 districts of Onchan, Port Erin and Port 16s. 2d. when by pure economics the St. Mary had no surplus on their housing same houses are costing approximately account for the year ending the 31st £4 per week. Similar houses in the Lezayre Road Estate are let by the March, 1967, and the Douglas Corpora- Board at £2 10s. Od. per week and are tion had a surplus of £7,086 on such then subsidised to the extent of 30s. Od. account at that date. The information per week. Many local authorities con- is not readily available in respect of sider it necessary to increase rents. Local Government Board or the Peel. Today increases occur after a period of Ramsey and Braddan Commissioners by stability and are moderate in amount. reason of the method of accounting. In some cases the increases have been (b) The amounts are: Douglas Corpora- steep and increases of over 50 per cent. tion, £26,427; Peel Commissioners, have been drawn to the notice of the £6,648; Ramsey Commissioners, £6,405; Board. Prudent and realistic housing Castletown Commissioners. £3,240; Port finance necessitates rent increases from Erin Commissioners, £4,509; Port St. time to time to meet the current cost of Mary Commissioners, £4.642; Onchan maintenance and repair and re-financing Commissioners, £5,852, and Braddan of existing schemes as well as of new Commis'ioners, £3,295. Question 2. The buildings. Local authorities also have a answer to the first part of this question duty to preserve a reasonable balance is yes. With regard to the second part of between the interests of tenants and the question, a separate account for other ratepayers. Most authorities feel housing is not kept for the Board. Re- housing is imposing an excessive burden ceipts and expenditure for this item on the rates. and it is natural they form a'n integral part of the Board's should review the amount of their rate General Revenue Account; con- fund contributions, It is also important sequently, no specific transfer of a sur- to bear in mind that steep increases in plus, if any, is made. The effect of any rent imposed at one time can cause surplus is to reduce the overall de- hardship and real difficulty on tenants. ficiency in this account. Conversely any The most equitable way to relieve hard- deficiency on housing increases the ship is by rebate system and if a formula overall deficiency of the Board. Ques- was arrived at it would not mean much tion No. 3. In view of the fact that extra administration. The onus to apply Douglas has a surplus, why does the for abatement must rest with the tenant, Local Government Board insist on in- and if applied for, fullest information creasing rents by the Douglas Corpora- with regard to the means must be tion. The answer to this, to me, should supplied. Notification of impending rent be obvious. Douglas have a surplus increases should be given well in ad- because, as I mentioned earlier, they vance of the prescribed date, and the have had large sums given to them to tenant who may be eligible for a rent build houses under the Grant Scheme. rebate made aware of the right to apply They are offsetting these houses against for assistance. A standard rent policy the later houses built under a different for the whole Island is essential, and building scheme, a borrowing scheme. the Board should give directive in this What should be considered is not what manner. Tenants of Board or local it cost Douglas, but what the houses authority houses should not appear to be actually cost to build and this is the in a more favourable position than other only way to arrive at a proper rent. ratepayers. Douglas Corporation at present have a waiting list of approximately 800 appli- Mr Callister: Your Excellency, I am

Local AuthorityRousing Deficiencies—Question by Mr Callister. 83u TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1068 very disappointed with the reply, which they are quite irrelevant to this ques- is quite irrelevant, and has nothing tion. whatever to do with the questions I have asked. You have got surpluses of Mr P. Radcliffe: That is exactly part £52.000 and yet the Board are demand- of the answer to the question Your ing increases. May I ask a supple- Excellency, and I crave the indulgence mentary question ? Is it not a tact that of this Court to give the full answer. surpluses on Local Government Board housing for the years ending 31st March, Mr Canister: You must give me the 1964/5/6, total £20,985, while the de- right to come back then. ficiency for the year ending 1967 Mr P. Radcliffe: You can have all the amounted to £12,865, showing a net sur- rights you wish. plus of £8.120 on Local Government Board housing which has been trans- Mr Corkish: Your Excellency— ferred to the general revenue of the Government ? Mr P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, can I continue to answer this question ? Mr P. Radcliffe: Yes, Your Excellency, as shown in the green books, surpluses Mr Callister: No, sir. for the years ending March, 1964/5/6, total £20,985, while the deficiency for Mr P. Radcliffe: Yes. the year ending 1967 amounted to The Governor: He has got the floor, £12,865. it must be noted, loan charges if he wishes to he may. for housing for the former years remain at the sum of £19,164, whereas in fact Mr Callister: I object, sir. new loans for housing were being applied throughout this period and were Mr P. Radcliffe: The hon. member is included in the Board's general loan trying to make out a case, sir, that there charges of £118.000. This matter was is a profit on local council houses— adjusted in March, 1967, when the amount for loan charges for housing Mr Callister: There is. schemes were increased to £41,365-- Mr P. Radcliffe: Let me put the case Mr Callister: Your Excellency, may I to you exactly as it stands., Let us take, interrupt ? This is irrelevant. I have for instance. Andreas housing. The asked' a question and I have heard the housing at Andreas cost the Board answer. £66,933 on which there is only a sink- ing fund and interest paid on a total cost Deemster Kneale: He must answer it. of £5,659. Mr Callister: Well, if he is going to Members: Can't you take it ? introduce a new element I have a right of reply. I have had the answer. sir, Mr Callister: I am not taking that. and I am satisfied. Mr P. Radcliffe: Janet's Corner cost The Governor: If he says he is satis- the Local Government Board £410,000 fied, let us have Mr Corkish. to build. There is only an interest and sinking fund paid on the sum of Mr P. Radcliffe: I think, sir, that £131,000. The other estates were built there are details connected with the under a different system of 75 per cent., answer that the hon, member should be 25 per cent. deficiency. The loan charge aware of. is now standing at £41,365, this is an increase of £22,000 over preyious Mr Callister: I am aware of them and charges as shown in the green book, so

Local Authority Housing Deficiencies—Question by Mr Callister. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, .1968 831 the surplus of £8,120 referred to by the popularity with thousands of visitors to hon. member becomes a deficiency to our shores. The amount spent by the date of £14,000. Tourist Board annually is now in the region of £150.000, so surely the tourist Mr Corkish: Your Excellency, I under- industry which claims to be our No. 1 stood the chairman of the Local Govern- priority is also under an obligation to ment Board to mention a figure of 800 conduct its business and use its best en- on the waitng list of the Douglas Cor- deavours to keep our Island in the fore- poration. I would just like him to con- front as a holiday resort in the British firm whether that was correct or not. Isles. And I am firmly convinced that the first-class premises with good ser- Mr P. Radcliffe: On Friday last the vices and good conditions of accom- representatives of Douglas Town modation must be the very keynote of Council appeared before the Local the very prosperity, and the satisfied Government Board and I questioned customer must surely rank as the finest them regarding these rents and the of all our advertisements. For it must answer was given by the chairman of be acknowledged that if this type of the committee that they had 800 applica- service is to be maintained the first tions on their housing list. essential is the provision of well-trained and efficient staff, as without competent staff no hotel or boarding-house can operate successfully, for the staff are PAY AND CONDITIONS IN THE the very pivot and centre on which the TOURIST INDUSTRY whole business must rotate. So why all this concern in the first instance about The Governor: Now back to the the establishment of the Catering Wages agenda. Item 5. The hon. member for Act, or indeed that a Commission of en- South Douglas, Mr Moore. quiry has been sought in order that the question of staff wages and conditions Mr Moore: Your Excellency. I beg to under which they both work and sleep move: would be investigated ? At present the That His Excellency be respectfully workers in the industry are the Cinder- requested to constitute a Commission to ella of our modern society. They are investigate the pay and working conditions denied, due to the transitory nature of of employees in the tourist industry of the their work and the short term of Isle of Man, and to bring forward for the consideration of Your Excellency and of this seasonal employment, and security, and hon. Court recommendations for the improve- protection would be accepted as a right ments and rationalisation of such pay and for all our workers in a democratic conditions in the light of the special circum- stances obtaining and affecting the industry society. I note with great interest and in the Isle of Man. astonishment the statement of the asso- ciation's president at the annual meeting, Now I would like to put forward the that the hotels in the Island engaged in points why I brought this forward. the tourist trade could not get any ex- The Residential and Boarding House eerienced staff' to which the Act in Keepers' Association have always re- England applied. What an admission to garded this trade as the very life-blood make If the workers in the industry of our Island's economy, and most fair- in the Island were safeguarded by the minded people would agree with them; provisions of the Catering Wages Act, and our Insular Government is willing or similar Act, and paid the rate for the to spend from time to time vast sums job. the tourist industry in, the Island of money to foster it and so increase would attract the very desirable and its attractions and increase the Island's efficient staff available to hotels in other

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry. 832 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 resorts in the British Isles and would employed in the trade, safeguards for thus help to solve the staff problem. retirement pensions and other people, And contrary to the president's state- such as stipulation of hours, work and ment of the Act being extremely dam- liberal periods of rest in between the aging to Manx tourism, the provision of working period and a fixed maximum a better type of staff would prove to be number of hours for these people during an incentive and be of benefit to our the season. Now one of the main points visiting trade. Experience in all walks I have got with regard to the pensioner, of life has shown that low wages and and I have consulted quite a number of bad conditions and poor accommodation business-people here and they realise are the very core of trouble, discontent that in the summer-time the boarding- and unrest In any industry a content house people could not possibly carry on and a satisfied worker is invariably a without the assistance of old age pen- good, conscientious, reliable servant and sioners. but I am not against old age where you have registration of premises pensioners being employed because the provision of servants' quarters in realise in small places a couple of hours some premises leaves very much to be maybe in the morning, dinner-time and desired. They are housed in attics and evening period, about six hours a day, basements below sea-level, they are out- would fully fulfil with regard to bed- dated according to modern standards rooms and also to the stiliroom. But and they are a relic of a Victorian age what I object to is,what we have got— of the jug and wash-basin, a period in what I call municipal indifference or the last century. It must be realised that guilty ignorance. The hours worked by the employees are used to modern the old age pensioners in the stillromn housing conditions in their own homes, in the Villa Marina, 9-30 a.m. to 6-30 and they now rightly expect servants' p.m., six days a week, a day off during quarters to be up to today's standard, the week without pay, but working on and should be as good as provided for Sundays. Some of them are aged be- the guests. For after all, while the tween 74 and 80 years of age. They col- guests occupy the rooms for a period of lapse from overwork and I personally a fortnight, the staff occupy their part advised one old person who has been of the premises for a period of some 15 employed there for years to give it up, weeks, and hi my opinion, only by regu- but she insisted on carrying on and larising wages, hours, and conditions of finished up in Noble's Hospital. There employment will the staff problem be are still old people working in the kit- solved, and this can only be achieved chen long past the allotted span of three by legislation designed to meet the score years and ten, and an awful lot of needs of local conditions, not some un- workers' wives who supplement the workable schemes with lines of de- family earnings, they are forced through marcation — who does what — but pro- circumstances, such as an invalid hus- tection from exploitation of employees, band, to work, and the present high cost safeguard for the employer and the of living forces them to work part-time employee by a proper agreement being in the stillrooms and kitchen during the drawn up binding both parties, proper summer season. And all those old register kept of persons employed, wages people, retirement pensioners, work long fixed by a wages board or council, both hours during the season, in most cases for staff employed all the year round indifferent to their doctors' advice, and in hotel and residential premises, and the doctors' surgeries are full of sea- further provision made for part-time sonal workers who work themselves to workers in boarding-houses and hotel a standstill through long hours on their restaurants in the summer season. feet throughout the busy summer season. Adequate safeguards for young people Shortage of staff is the excuse for some

Pay and conditions in the Tourist Industry. TYNWALD COURT, lee.BRUARY 20, 1968 833 who are doing the work of two or more were still in the hotel here, and this was people. Why should a cafe like the a first-class chap who had risen to be Villa Marina be short of staff ? Is the a head waiter. Are we going to en- pay too low ? Are the jobs too arduous courage foreign people to come here — for most people_ or working hours too first-class waiters — and they are good long ? At the eerie hour of midnight waiters, there is no doubt about that, you will see a single-decker bus going and also the fact that other members in through Douglas disembarking a lot of that hotel_ too, on account of some re- tired old people. When I see them dundancy they were effecting, paid getting off this bus at night-time I think others off who were living in the house of a song of Thomas Wood —" 0 God, through the hospitality of another that bread should be so dear, and flesh boarding-house keeper who had been and blood so cheap." With regard to waited on by these particular young what I would call this frustration which fellows? I think you would not get this is attempted by the amendment, I would sort of treatment even out in Russia, like to quote a statement made in the what that young gentleman received, interim report of the Tourist Board and this is the sort of thing we are Accommodation Committee. Under the going to have in the Isle of Man, the heading " Recruitment of Staff " the treatment, unless there is some sort of following announcement was made - regulation and legislation to protect " Difficulties in finding a suitable staff these people, The committee thought for the tourist season and it was sug- that seasonal workers for hotel and gested that a scheme should be intro- boarding-houses might be recruited in duced under which Government would Northern Ireland, they can be recruited bring staff from say. Malta. or Southern anywhere if they pay the proper rates of Europe for service in tourist accom- pay. The committee noted, however, modation during the season." With that a similar scheme had been proposed regard to bringing people in from Malta. about three years ago, but had fallen I had a particular case only a short through because of the unwillingness of while ago where I had to come to the the trade to guarantee adequate wages rescue of an Italian boy who was head to workers concerned. The committee, waiter in one of the leading hotels in therefore, felt that the success of any Douglas and went for his holidays to such scheme would be dependent on the Italy. He arrived back and found there support and the co-operation of the was no work for him, according to the trade. Not ray words, but the Speaker. immigration authorities in London. They the chairman of the Tourist Board, the got in touch with the hotel and they said chairman of the Local Government the work was still here for him, and he Board and the vice-chairman of the could have been deported back to Italy Finance Board, and these are the people again. He had to find work within four who are wanting an amendment now to hours. A very leading man with light pot them in a position to be able to industry in Douglas here, he intervened negotiate an inquiry on behalf of these on my behalf and got in touch with his people concerned. I would not agree at directors in Liverpool to find this young all with this amendment in any shape fellow a job in Liverpool. which he did. or form, because I have asked here in But still they persisted his work was this particular instance of withdrawing still in the Isle of Man and I got in the Catering Act, and I thought it was touch with Mr Peter Hulme over it and rather drastic. I had my ear to the eventually he was assured hewas coming ground in this House and found there here, and when he did arrive he found was great opposition to it. There always there was no jab. He had no week's is great opposition to any increase in notice in lieu, no money, his belongings wages, and I must compliment the

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry. 834 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1988 farmers now under the new Agricul- ing the wages, pay rates and conditions tural Wages Agreement, they are now of these workers, and I would respect- giving decent adequate wages to their fully ask this Court to reject the amend- employees, but not so the tourist indus- ment when it comes up and to support try. I would like to point out in the the resolution in order that the repre- matter of the appointment of a commis- sentatives shall be an independent three sion that this is a warrant issued by —three for the workers, and three for the Governor authorising a person or the employers — and bring in, if you persons named in the commission to do like, the secretary of the Boarding-house something of a public nature in the Keepers' Association, and the chairman Governor's name. The powers of such of the Joint Industrial Council. That is commission are strictly limited by the the type of commission I want to see. terms adopted under which it is set up. You can even fetch the judiciary in, but The Commission shall consist of persons for God's sake keep the Executive Coun- appointed by the Governor, not more cil out. than three persons being independent persons, not more than three persons to Mr Corkish; I beg to second and re- represent the employers, and not more serve my remarks. than two persons chosen by the Gover- nor to represent the employed person. Mr Quayle: Your Excellency, I beg to This is what has got to be gone into. move the amendment standing in my This is a very serious problem. I name: "that this matter be referred to wouldn't say it was in the terms of what an existing committee, I do this, Your the! present accommodation committee of Excellency, for two reasons, principally, the Tourist Board could possibly look one is that we are becoming more and up to. It is a very wide question. The more committee and commission rad- question will be of permanent staff, it dled in this Court, and if we have an will be of part-time workers, it will be existing body which more or less of young people and the welfare of these already embraces in its terms of refe- young people in the summer-time that rence this particular subject, it only has got to be considered too. Also the seems right to me that that body should fact, you would have to have separate deal with it. Now, sir, I am grateful to agreements for long-term people such as the hon. member for South Douglas that waiters and others who are employed he has varied his resolution from the right throughout the season. Nov this previous two months. He no longer men- is not only going to touch boarding- tions Catering and Wages Act. He gave houses, this will also affect all the as his reason for this variation that catering industry in the Isle of Man, he put his ear to the ground and he cafes, waiter-service, say, at the Palace, didn't think the Court would go that hotels and also any kind of coffee houses, far. I would like to ask him—how far? or small places of employment, selling Because, as I pointed out to him two ice-cream or anything during the sum- months ago, of course there is no Cater- mer months. It would safeguard the ing and "Wages Act. There hasn't been whole lot that would be embodied, and for many years. There are, in England, I hope that this Court will not be misled regulations which have some relation by the fact that we are going to have to catering amongst other subjects, but this section of the Executive Council— in none of them are private hotels, guest this cabal, as our friend from North houses, boarding-houses and the like Douglas calls them and also the chair- covered. Now this must be for a very man of the Finance Board. This is not good reason, and I would suggest to the wide enough, as far as I am concerned, Court that the reason is that it is a in order to meet the needs of regularis- field of operation which is practically

Pay and Conditions 'n the Tourist Industry. TY'NWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, .1968 835

impossible to cover. The existing wage those across on the other side of the regulations do: in fact—I speak now of Irish Sea England—cover industrial staff can- teens; licensed non-residential establish- Mr Moore: Question. ments, in other words, 'nibs.; licensed Mr Quayle: Ouestion What you like, non-residential establishmelats concern- gentlemen, I am giving you facts. The ing managers and club stewards, in practice of paying a bonus to staff. otoer words, clubs; licensed residential which is now in general use in the establishments and licensed restaurants Isle of Man, is attractive to staff, as is —I don't think we have such things as also the growing practice in hotels and licensed restaurants in the Island—well boarding-houses to charge around a tney are Chinese, I agree, and also regu- 10 per cent, service charge for staff lations covering unlicensed places of emolument. In one particular field, I refreshment. Nowhere do you see the would suggest to the Court, the Isle word hotel mentioned. I meati hotel in of Man is more attractive than is Eng- the sense we mean it. I think, sir, in land. There is no pay-as-you-earn in considering need for legislation in this the Isle of Man, and they therefore re- particular subject we have got to look ceive more in direct remuneration than at two sides of it. One side is that in a similar worker would in a similar the Isle of Man its is common know- establishment in England. Whether they ledge that catering staff are in terribly in fact ever pay any Manx income tax short supply. Now where you get a is a matter for their conscience and the commodity that is in short supply it assiduity of the tax departement in pur- must be well paid in order to get it, suilag them Liter they have gone home. and it will go where the conditions are There is also another aspect which is best, in other words it will follow the a side benefit, there is no selective em- best wages. There is no question but ployment tax in the Isle of Man, which tnat in this Island we have been for has the effect in helping the worker. many years, in the recent past, short Neither do the hours vary. The gross of staff. There is no question that they hours in an English establishment is come still workers from other Islands 46, staff working here are between 45 other places to work here, therefore, the and 47. Where we do get a difference conditions can't be all that bad, other- in the Isle of Man, which would be to wise they wouldn't come. There is a the staff's detriment but is unavoid- general staff shortage in hotels through- able, is the spread over of their hours. out the length and breadth of Britain, In that, with boats arriving very early nevertheless, we stili get a considerable ih the morning and guests still coming number of staff coming to the Isle of in by air quite late at night, they do Man. Now the basis_ of the resolution tend to spread the hours over a longer seems to be a comparison between con- period in the day. But, nevertheless, no ditions as they exist in England and additional hours are in fact worked for conditions as they exist here, and the no over-time. I would suggest to the mover, by implication, and, in fact, by hon. mover, and go a certain amount of direct reference, implies that conditions the way with him, that there could pos- here are terrible; that he had had to sibly be improvements in staff accom- personally intercede to help somebody modation, Now this isn't a simple prob- in this direction and the other direc- lem, the Tourist Board has looked at tion. Now what in fact are the differ- this for a considerable number of years. ences? The rates of pay here over all We would like to see a higher standard classes of etablishment are, in fact, in the accommodation where staff live; equal to and frequently in excess of but with our antiquated accommodation

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry, 836 TYN;W,ALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1368

itt many respects this is practically im- or rates and scales, but this is under- possible. Much could be done from an standable, because it is a very difficult inspection point of view, and the Tourist type of industry. We have also, froM Board would, when properly instructed, time to time, Lad several schemes to be quite prepared to take over this go into the question of improving the part of Weir duties in addition to in- standard of worker by embarking upon specting guest accommodation, which various schemes — the setting up of is also part of the Tourist Boards courses to improve cooks and certain duties. But when I say a lot of this domestic working in the hotel industry. accommodation is not terribly good, we Here again we had the co-operation. of must keep this in proportion: because rde Education Authority is assisting us it must be said that accommodation for in training certain personnel. It is a staff can start out extremely well on very difficult situation. In the United the 1st May and not be in very good Kingdom they have an industry for condition at the end of September; not looking after hotels which are working through the fault of the proprietor of for 52 weeks in the year. In the Isle of the hotel, but through the fault of the Man we have comparatively short staff tnemselves, this is fairly well season whereby we do depend upon tem- known, I think, and acknowedged. I. am porary and part-time employees. I be- sure that the Tourist Board would be lieve that the standards under which prepared to look after the staff accom- the people are working, and the con- modation side of it, and I admit some ditions, have greatly improved over re- Gall from grace in that department only. cent years, and as the chairman of the But I think, Your Excellency, in the Tourist Board states, that if they don't question of staff emoluments, this Court offer these good standards these people would be very well advised at this go into other occupations. I feel sure moment to leave what is a good in- that the Employment Advisory Corn- dustry well alone. mitee on the direction of this Court, and as the chairman of the Tourist Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, I would Board has said that the Tourist Board like to speak on this as chairman of would look after their side, that both the Employment Advisory Committee committees could do exactly what Mr and as chairman of a committee that Moore wants, without this kind of has been interested in this problem for arbitrary manner about it, without lay- quite a long time. I would say that I ing down rules, regulations, orders, think Mr Moore has done .a justice by scales and the like. It is extremely bringing this matter to the Court and difficult to put down scales for this class asking this Court to take some action. of work. It is extremely difficult—there However, I do think that we should are many reasons why it is difficult, support the amendment that is put for- but it is, I can assure you, extremely ward. This does instruct the existing difficult. One thing we are looking at, machinery that is set-up to look into Your Excellency, and we have looked this problem, and I feel sure that it at it from time to time, is the pirating could do it very much better than by of staff from one hotel or boarding- setting up a commission. hi the past it house to another, and we are looking is true, as Mr Moore has said, that the into the possibility that when workers Employment Advisory Committee have do come to the Isle of Man that they looked into certain problems associated should be issued not only with a with the tourist industry and have had national insurance card, but another con.'ultation with the people associated card, without which they could not re- in the trade. They did, however, have ceive employment. This card should difficulty in arriving at standard wages have to be taken from one place to

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, .1963 837 another and we would use some thing I have never seen it. But it is machinery to prevent this pirating of always the same—if anybody tries to staff. I do hope that the hon. member improve anything here you will find for South Douglas, who is most in- that the Board who is responsible for terested, I know—I have spoken to him getting into the state they have got personally—in the welfare and well- always ready to jump up and justify being of the staff, will think that there tne ways and means that they have been are better ways, probably, than intro- working. I taink it is an atrocious state ducing rigid legislation and orders to of affairs that the people who work in look after those people. I feel sure that those boarding-houses work in the con- if the Court will pass the amendment that the Employment Advisory Commit- oitions and under the conditions and the tee, which have representatives of the pay that they work in, and I think the Trades Council, the Employers' Federa- quicker something is done about it the tion, the Douglas Corporation and better. It is no good saying well, we various sides of industry, they surely nave a committee that will do the thing, would be the body that could look into and as soon as we get this passed today this case and subsequently report back it will be forgotten about like many on their findings. I would urge, Your other things. Excellency, that the Court support the amendment proposed by the chairman Mr Burke: Your Excellency, I would of the Tourist Board. support the amendment if I felt that the committee which had been appoin- The Governor: May I take it that you ted would meet very 'shortly to go into second it? this question. I admire the hon. member for South Douglas, Mr Moore, for rais- Mr Nivison: I would second it. ing this matter in this way, and he was well aware of the fact that his Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, I am previous resolution would meet a absolutely amazed that we have got a rather miserable response. But I would committee that looks into those kind of support the amendment, because we things. For years and years, for all the already have a committee set up. I will years that 1 have been here, we have support the amendment if I can have known the difficulty to attract staff to an assurance that this committee will the boarding-houses and various other meet very quickly, because there is no things, and apparently the committee doubt about this kind of thing in my has done nothing. short experience in Tynwald. I rather feel that committees arc set up end we Mr Nivisdn: They have, sir, they have don't hear much of them for a long time—they are in the pipeline, or the pigeon-hole, or whatever expression is Mr MacLeod: The hon. chairman of used. It seems to be that to dispose of the Tourist Board said the conditions something is to refer to it to the com- couldn't be so very bad here because mittee, and this can easily be forgotten. people come to the island.and took up May I say that it happens in local autho- a job. They came to the Island and rities as well, I think? But I am quite took up a job because the conditions prepared to support this amendment in the places where they came from provided that the committee are going were worse than they are here. Now to meet very quickly. Now with regard I -know of cases ib Peel where women to the statements which have been have been paid £3 10s. a week for a made that the workers need a great deal six-day week. If that is justice for any- of protection from exploitation—now

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry. 838 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

Mr Moore has not stated where there hoteliers will tell you they are better is any exploiting of the workers— than some of the so-called trained staff who come here. Now as far as exploita- Mr MacLeod: I did. tion is concerned, and as far as wages and conditions are concerned, many Mr Burke: Yes, but I said Mr Moore of the hoteliers, who are my constituents didn't.

Mr Moore: I will do in my reply. Mr MacLeod: May I ask if the hon: speaker has any pecuniary interest in Mr Burke: Yes, exploitation of the this? workers, and it will be very interesting in Mr Moore's reply for the benefit of Mr Burke: No, sir, I have no pecuni- the committee if he can give them that ary interest. I have never employed information. But I might say on behalf any staff, and for the hon. member's of the Boarding-house Keepers' Associa- benefit, I have given up my house as tion, of which I am a member, that a boarding-house on account of the the employers need some protection state of my wife's health. I hope he some times- is satisfied. I have no pecuniary in- terest at all, and my anly interest is Tne Acting-Speaker: Hear, hear. Very that both the employers and the em- much, too. ployees shall get a square deal, and I think that the committee that has Mr Burke: One would imagine that already been set up, if they will meet the most experienced waitresses and shortly, will be able to deal with it. members of the hotel stair—one would Now, before I was interrupted, I was imagine from this that the most ex- about to paint out that in many cases perienced people came to the Isle of and in a majority of cases, these em- Man very happily and willingly and ployees are receiving—and I can pro- gave the best service, and therefore duce evidence if the mover wants this crould have the best wages. Now years —that so many of them are receiving ago, Your Excellency, it was not very the equivalent of £12 per week; more difficult far hoteliers to procure staff than they will get across the water. for their hotels. A great many workers They have to do this, but— came from Ireland and from Scotland and from other parts of England, and Mr Moore: For how many hours? they were good employees, but the position now is that there is so much Mr Burke: It is all very well saying work in Ireland and England— For how many hours. If Mr Moore will investigate from the hoteliers—and they Mr MacDonald: In England? can tell him that these people have all kinds of time off, and the hotel busi- Mr Burke: —for women. There is ness is a rather peculiar business; it so much work that those who are un- is not like a factory or a shop or a employed—many of them are not workshop where you can say right, trained for this work, and they come you can have 40 hours, from 8 o'clock here and expect top wages and they in the morning until 5 o'clock at night. have to be trained very often by the Even if you are getting up in the dark employers. It is a fact; and the hoteliers . nowadays—and there are good rates of are very glad at holiday time of univer- pay as the chairman of the Tourist sity students to come here to work. Board, the hon. member Mr Quayle, has They are very easily trained and stated. We are aware that the conditions

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 830 for some of the servants leave a lot thing, such as an agency, which should to be desired in some of the cases, and be looked into. The question of this as a Board we are going into this. Now, poaching of staff should be looked into with regard to part-time workers—now and as far as the agency is concerned— I am talking about the oryastitueney in and if we are concerned about staff for East Douglas, they are always glad of the hotel industry, I don't think there a pair of hands for half-an-hour, and it should be private agencies for staff em- is a fact that many of them, just for loyment, acid if there is, they should be two or three hours at night, are getting registered, and the conditions of this 7s. 6d. per hour after they have done registration should be dealt with by their work elsewhere, many of them. this Court. My own opinion is that the Now with regard to the statements registration of employees for the made by Mr Moore with regard to hoteliers should take place through the Villa Marina, I am very concerned Government, and that a contract should about that. I am a member of the 'oa drawn up, not only for the protec- Douglas Town Council, as you know, tion of the employers, but for the pro- and I was a member of the Parks Com- tection of the employees, The employers mittee, and we have gone into this are as much concerned about this as question. 1 would have thought that Mr anybody else. There are cases in the Moore would have had a little chat with hotels of where, for no reason at all, the chairman of the Parks Committee or to go somewhere else, or because first, rather than bring it into this they get a bit tired in the middle of the Court. I am not on the Parks Committee season, they just pack their bags and now. If I had been in Mr Moore's place. go. and very often the boarding-house before I brought these statements into keepers are at their wits end to know this Court of poor old ladies working where to get staff from, and they have from morning until night and stagger- got to turn to and do a lot of the work ing home and being carried home themselves. I repeat, Your Excellency, in coaches and so on, he would that if I am assured that according to have investigated himself. Some of the amendment that this committee will those people have asked if they could meet as soon as possible, I will sup- work a little longer to earn some more. port the amendment. Now, with regard to registration, Your Excellency, I have been rather con- Mr Creer: Your Excellency, I don't cerned about this. The question of regi- think, honestly, that there is any need stration — and the hon. member, Mr for this resolution, or the amendment Nivison, has pointed out that the Em- either. The catering workers in this ployment Advisory Committee are con- Island are well organised. They are cerned about a form of-contract. Now organised, and make no mistake about a form of contract should be drawn up that— in order to protect the employers, be- cause they are aware of the fact that Mr Burke: They have no union. they pay the fares of these people who come over here, and they perhaps, on Mr Creer: And if they don't get the the boat, meet a friend—she says where top wages they are gone to somewhere she is going to work and she tells this else where they will. As regards the person, well, they want another per- chefs, the porters, everyone in this son where I am going, and it is very Island is well organised in that way. nice, t worked there last year. So she I know Mr Moore is a great supporter goes with her and the hotelier wonders of old-age pensioners, or retired pen- when his member of staff is coming— sioners; doss he want to do away with she never arrives. There is also another this part-time job which they look for-

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry. 840 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 ward to with Whit week coming so only during the summer months in the they can earn a bob or two extra for Isle of Man- themselves? Does Mr Moore want to do away with that? Deemster Kneale: They are running their own houses. ' Mr Moate: I didn't say that. Mr MacDonald: That is in the census. Mr Creer: But you are going to say it. if you get it organised that you are Deemster Kneale: That's what Manx going to have a Catering Act or any- people are doing — they are running tning like that, everything will be con- their own houses. trolled. There are too many controls .tow. I don't think, Your Excellency, Mr MacDonald: They are running that tnis is required at all for this their own houses. So it is mainly foreign particular business. As regards poach- labour — labour from outside the Isle ing. we heard the hon. member for of Man — that we are interested in. We East Douglas talking about poaching. are not really interested in Manx labour. Eor poacning workers in the building If this is the case— trade; or any other trade in this Island, we get that all the time, and if• you Mr Burke: Of course we are. don't pay the wages you won't get the people. I think we are wasting the Mr MacDonald: No, we are not. Very Court's time to appoint another com- few Manx people are employed in this mission to go into this, or the present business today. committee to go into at all. Let's keep sometning free and carry on with what Mr Nivison: Your figures are astray. tin e ate doing. Mr MacDonald: They are census Mr MacDonald: Your Excellency, I figures. will support Mr Moore's motion, mainly because I am very interested in finding Mr Nivison: They are not correct, sir. out exactly who are being employed in the tourist trade. I have got before Mr MacDonald: They are census me the census of 1966, and I find that figures, produced by Government. Now, today very few Manx people are actu- if these figures are wrong — well, where ally engaged in the tourist industry in is all the rest of the labour coming from? the summer. We do have, I see, 434 Mr Moore says most of it is coming from hotels and boarding-house keepers who outside, and I agree with him that the are self-employed. We do have 94 per- type of labour we are getting — and the sons keeping restaurants; but when chairman of the Tourist Board will agree we get dawn to Manx residents em- with me — isn't what we would like. In ployed in this trade I find that we fact, they said so in their tourist com- have only got 12 cooks; 18 kitchen mittee. If this is the case, there must be hands; 19 maids, valets and related a- very good reason for it — if we are not service workers; two caretakers; and getting the type of labour we require. 33 charwomen— There is plenty of surplus labour in England today — plenty. There are Mr Simcocks: At the 1st April. 600,000 on the dole. We have also got 200,000 Asians pouring into the country. Mr MacDonald: No, it isn't at the 1st There is plenty of labour of all types April. This was taken — selected occu- available. What I would like to see - pations of persons employed solely and and I hope this will bring it out — is

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 841

exactly who we are looking after—what the Isle of Man — and there are some we are providing for people coming here. exceedingly good — who treat their Are they being properly looked after ? employees exceedingly well, and have Are they being properly paid, and no difficulty whatever in getting the properly housed ? I know for a fact—as right staff and good staff. When I hear my hon. colleague said — in Peel last of the Douglas Residential Hotel and summer there were some — not board- Boardinghouse Keepers opposing this ing houses or hotels, but restaurants - rine i begin to wonder why. And when where young people — schoolchildren— I hear the chairman of the Douglas were being paid between 22 15s. and itesinential Hotei and Boardnignouse £3 5S. a week for a six-day week. This Keepers saying the average wage is 25 is not very good. The hours they were a week ! Re may tell me that they get doing were fantastic, and this is com- all sorts of penis, out that to my mind pletely wrong. is not an adequate wage for anybody working in the hotels and boarding- Mr Quayle: Were they experienced ? houses in the isle of Man. I did start off by saying that this was exceedingly Mr Creer: If they tried to get an difficult. I tnink it was the hon. member Indian or a Pakistani they would get for East Douglas, Mr Burke, who said one. the employees needed protection. Well, I would suggest that the answer to that Mr MacDonald: But they deserve more is a statutory wage limit — minimum than £3 5s. This is what I think Mr wage limit — for employees in catering. Moore is worried about — the exploita- Now, that is a protection for the tion of labour; of young labour and of employers as well as the employees, and old labour. There is no doubt about it, I would suggest that since this com- and I support his move. mittee that has been appointed are not functioning — and I don't believe that Mr Callister: Your Excellency, this is they are the right people either — I feel a very difficult problem, and one that Mr Moore's resolution is the one. exceedingly difficult to deal with. I There is one point that has been raised think that the fundamental that we which I would like to make reference to. overlooked is this: that this is a tem- and that is the question of income tax. porary period of employment, for three have spoken to income tax assessors— months in the year. And anybody knows more than one — and I think we have that if they employ anybody for a short got to acknowledge the fact that as most time they must expect to pay higher employees are temporary and• come here wages rather than the normal wages. for twelve weeks in the year. they go If a man is engaged for twelve months back. many of them to Southern Ireland, in a year he gets a regular wage; and if and it would cost more to recover the you just want to employ somebody for income tax than you would charge by three months you have a right to pay the system of pay-as-you-earn — it him or her at a higher rate of wage. It would cost more to collect it than it is a principle which we simply ignore. would be worth, You are merely working We feel that the tourist industry is a for nothing. So I think that one would normal industry, employing people nor- have to recognise that and ignore this mally. They are not. Why we haven't question of income tax. I am supporting got Manx people is because this is not a the resolution. career. There is no career in being an assistant in a boarding-house or an hotel. Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I would I would like to exempt a number of like to point out one thing, sir. I heard well-run hotels and boarding-houses in a figure of an average of 25 a week

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry. 842 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

mentioned. Now, I am quite satisfied resolution, and I certainly don't care that the average for hotels and boarding- very much Tor the amendment, aithougn nouses in the Isle of Man is not as low it wouta be better than the resolution as £.5 a week. itself. Mr Callister: This is a statement by ne Acting-Speaker: Your Excellency, the chairman of the Douglas Residen- every successive five years, when tial Hotel and Boardinghouse Keepers' tne rmuse of Keys is re-elected, Associa don. somone in the assembly raises this very tning. 1 have heard it now Mr Burke: £6 10s. so many times that I am sick tc deatn of it. The remarkable thing Mr Bolton: It may well be. But I am about it is that the people who do tnis quite sure of this, that in audition to sort of thing have not the slightest idea tne figure that has oeen mentioned by of what is going on. They are living in the hon. member of £6 10s. they have cuckooland as far as the catering trade their full board and accommodation, is concerned. I have been brought up in and in the majority of cases they get it. I have had 40 years of shops in Ram- 10 per cent collected by the management sey, in the catering trade. Unless you —which to my personal knowledge can pay the people who are handling your amount to another £5 a week. money — and you are feeding them, too —you will not get proper staff— Mr MacLeod: You have a pecuniary Mr MacLeod: And the ironmongers. interest. Mr Kelly: I was a lot of other things Mr. Bolton. I know. I have as much besides that. Whatever you have been, pecuniary interest as some members I would pay you credit for what you nave in agriculture, and I am going to were in. 1 would listen to you. Mr Mac- speak on the same lines. I do know Leod, on something you knew something what happens in this industry, and I about. But when you know nothing know this, that many of them will get about it I am not going to listen to you £7 a week, full board, plus a £5 a week at. all. This is a very big problem. I was equivalent from the 10 per cent, plus a member of the Employment Advisory personal tips that they pick up from the Committee for 20 years — ever since I people that they serve. I know this, that had been elected until the formation of in the majority of cases the difficulty is a new committee. Mr Nivison, the hon. always to get the staff; that is the big- member, can bear me out in this. We gest difficulty, and the people who suffer Met them repeatedly. Their difficulty most from staff problems are not the was getting suitable staff. And the hon. staff but the employers. They have them member Mr Burke, he has been in it— wandering from place to place. I have he knows it, knows all about it. Mr Creer seen Mr Percy Coupe, who was until is an employer, and Mr Bolton has got recently a member of this Court, at a terrific interest in all these things and Ronaldsway, and asked him what he his fingers in many of these particular was doing there, and he said. " I am pies. And he knows what he is talking meeting my staff, because if I don't meet about. I know, too. You will not get them here they will never get to my people unless you are prepared to pay house — somebody else will get them." them the proper rate. Because people Now, I do think, sir, that this question are different. Different classes of wor- of inquiry into the pay and conditions kers — and Women particularly — wait- of the tourist industry is a sheer waste resses, cooks washers-up, and all kinds of time. I am entirely opposed to the of different people, some of them

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 843 haven't a clue how to go about it. You Mr MacDonald: You don't get that bring them over — I had two people; I now, you are retired. put them into a furnished house in Ram- sey — from Scotland. They were getting Mr Kelly: If you do not pay them, a proper wage, their food — the lot. But they will rob you — that's what. Ramsey was too quiet for them. I found they disappeared one week. They had Mr Moore: Also in regard to Mr gone to Douglas, where the bright Nivison. I am rather surprised at Mr lights were. You couldn't hold them in Nivison, because I have always en- these small places, and these are the visaged Mr Nivison as a person who be- difficulties that people have got. It is lieved in collective bargaining. This going to get you nowhere, and in another individual bargaining doesn't get you five years somebody else will be doing anywhere, There is no protection either exactly the same thing as Mr Moore is for the employer or the employee. When doing now. He will be led up the garden, rules and regulations are stated you and as he comes out of the front gate have got some grounds, and you have again, he will say, " Well, I have had a got to keep as far as possible to those go, anyway " and that will be it. agreements. There is also a regulation Mr Moore: Well, sir, I would first like with regard to what punishment there to reply to Mr Quayle, and I would like may be. or what the penalties are in to inform him that the reason I did not connection with this, and I feel that this mention the Catering Wages Act was argument with regard to a short season, because I have made extensive enquir- the Steam Packet Company have the ies. I have done a little bit of homework, same thing— they ran the Manxmaid I sit at home and study these things. I for five weeks. Why did the seamen go do not come here with flamboyant to the " Manxmaid " for five weeks only. schemes of what should happen and They received the same pay exactly as what should not happen. I get down to a man on the " Lady of Mann " or the the facts. I found that the Catering " Mona's Queen " that ran till the end Wages Act of 1943 was repealed, and. in of September but the fact is they wanted 1.959 there was the Wages Council Act, to be at home, if they were sailing deep but they embodied in that Catering water it was an opportunity to be home Wages Act the sections on terms and for e few weeks in the summer, even if conditions of employment, and the fifth it was only on a Sunday to get home on schedule. They included, as he said, the weekend. This position of short- industrial staff, canteen undertakings term summer. this is a fact because you and- a licensed non-residential establish- come here to help to keep. this life- ment. Well a residential establishment blood, number one priority. The fact is any private hotel on the Promenade, that to keep it going and the employees either with a licence or without a are the people that's going. Why, a ship licence. Licensed residential will surely without a crew would be no use to me, bring most hotels in as well. and also neither would an hotel without a staff licensed restaurants. and what you be any use to me. It would only be a didn't consider in this also was outside building— a shell. It's the people that the licence — unlicensed places of count and that is why I am here today refreshment. You can also exploit wor- on behalf of the people. With regard to kers by paying them too little against exploitation, I find there is exploitation selling ice-cream, If you are not paying because I got a chap, this same fellow, them the proper rate for the job— a job, who doesn't want to work in Liverpool, he wanted to be here, and Mr Nivison: Who are you looking at I got him a job and he started to get now ? exploited and he is getting exploited

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry, 844 TYNWALD COURT, HEBRUARY 20, 1968 there today until he leaves to go to the speaking on facts in regard to this. mainland to get a much better job. Never mind Mr Kelly saying I don't know what I am talking about, T was Mr Bolton: Why doesn't he join the connected with the tourist trade too. I union ? was doing 77 hours a week without over- time. and Sunday was included. The Mr Moore: Because the union just geek after race week we could only go can't deal with these short-term people on one boat and the Douglas Head ser- and the fact is he took on an all-night vice and we tossed up for a 3i-day job as a porter — I got him the job - week. I fovariably lost. I had a Sunday and one week his money was reduced to do for my 3i days. Don't talk to me by as much as 30s. because there wasn't about exploitation. I know as much so many people in, but he was doing all about it as Mr Kelly does— night, and then he was obliging a waiter by fulfilling an obligation that wasn't his obligation at all, but they were short The Acting-Speaker: Not about this for dinners and that sort of thing. After job you don't. being up all night he was obliging them there. Also the fact — there is another Mr Moore: We were in the boarding- part of this too — I would like to say house there a number of years ago too that half the managers employed by the — the same way as he was in it in Mona breweries are not getting paid for the Street years ago, but the fact is, with job. They are not getting paid for the regard to Mr Burke, now I would like job because a man and wife are only to answer him. I have already ex- getting the equivalent of a labourer's plained how there is exploitation. I met wage. That is all they are getting. All a fellow the other day who is a cook - this wonderful money — £6 10s, Od. I a proper cook, day shift —and he was was informed by a very good source - offered £14 Os. Od. a week. I know a which I am unable to divulge — that the girl who was offered a job last summer boarding-house keepers wouldn't go in a cafe at £5 10s. Od. a week including beyond £5 10s. Od. per week, they were Sunday. If that is good wages I would adamant on it. As regards the people say to the members of this Court, You not knowing how to wait on — your are living in the past. You want to wake daughter or my daughter can wait on up." Anybody here with any common- in an hotel. My daughter 'has been sense to tell me or to tell any member waiting 'on 42 people herself in a of this hon. Court that people out of boarding-house. Quite capable of doing their own goodwill are willing to toe it, but for a very small salary— the line, I have never come across them. The farmers have all got organised, and good luck to them. They have their own Mr Devereau: And tips. organisation — we hope the fishing is going to have their own organisation, Mr Moore: And tips were never but it is only by being organised that wages. And this fact of bonus amuses you will be recognised. We have got to me, because when it comes to the end face up to this fact. This individual bar- of the season they try to victimise them. gaining between one person and an- If there is any bonus to come they try other—we have been advocating and to ease it out before it is due. It's like everybody else. In Athol Street the a policeman coming out on pension — lawyers work a five-day week. You can you've got to be on your toes the last work 100 hours a week in a boarding- twelve months. This is a fact. I am house, but five day in Athol Street. It

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, I9fi8 845 s the recognised week by lawyers and chaos as it is. They do not know where T say we must look at this with equity they are at present. They are all at and I can see there is only one solution sixes. They are poaching from one to this—it is to organise this trade another in their staff and they are will- properly. We are willing to put all this ing to pay more in the height of the money into it. We are giving them season when they find that they are loans for twenty years, free of interest, stuck. With regard to this composition 4 per cent., then reduced to the 3 per here again, the composition of this com- cent. I do not know what they are mittee. This puts me in mind of a chap going to do now that we are bor- from Port St. Mary who says I can pick rowing money at a much increased a football team for Rushen next week. rate, but we are putting money into this Myself in goals and my brother on the industry, and this industry has got to be wing. and the centre-forward will be prepared to do right by its employees as my uncle. Well this is what this is — the well as any other industry. Executive Council, the vice-chairman of the Finance Board is connected with Mr Devereau: As they have done in this, who supplies to the trade, relies the past. on the trade mostly for his living Mr Moore: I know very well — it is Mr Devereau: We all are. all very well saying in the past — I could tell you of dozens of people who Mr Moore: Am I going to accept him are working for what I would term as an unbiased opinion to arrange wages " washers ", and until they get orga- and hours and the conditions of em- nised, until boarding-houses and hotel ployees. Certainly not. I hope you will people keep a proper register of staff, turn it down and stick to the original until there are agreements, which I have resolution. We are going to have some mentioned before, binding on both sides. regularisation of wages, hours and con- It has got to be binding on both sides. ditions and to say to some who are living I agree with Mr Burke there, with in bad conditions 1 am going to do some- regard to the registering of employment. thing in the future for you, not now These registry offices should be done but in ten years time when you have all away with and the Government should got rheumatism from damp places, I will take over concerning registries in the do something for you then— Isle of Man. I am quite agreeable to that, but the exploitation, that has been Mr Callister: An aspirin. proved, you think everything in the garden is beautiful. How can everything The Governor: Mr Burke has a point in the garden be beautiful when one of order. boarding-house keeper is prepared to take the servant of another person by Mr (Bunke: I rise on a point of order paying more wages. What loyalty is — the statement the hon. member has there in the trade itself ? None. By just made about members of the com- their attitude it proves that there must mittee may be blared and I am in- be proper rules and regulations. That formed the members of that committee they must be organised and also that a are Mr Speaker, the chairman, Mr Catering Wages Board must be set up Quayle, Mr Percy Radcliffe and Mr in this Island. I am hoping that as a Irving. Surely he dcesn't suggest that result of this investigation here today those members would be biased in any that we shall have the boarding-house respect, and while I am on my feet keepers' association, its employees all might I have an assurance that these put on a proper fair footing. It is only members will take steps to have this

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry. 846 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 committee, if the amendment is agreed Against: Messrs MacLeod, Simcocks, upon, that they will meet as soon as Callister, Moore, Corkish, Mac- pOssiible. Donald and Mr Kelly-7. Mr Creer: Your Excellency. he didn't In the Council— answer the question that I asked. I would like to be answered — that is, For: The Lord Bishop, Deemster did he want to do away with the pen- Kneale, the Attorney-General, ..ioners working part-time in the board- Messrs McFee, Nicholls, Nivison ing-houses? One pensioner in the morn- and Sir Ralph Stevenson-7. ing and one in the afternoon. Against: Mr Bolton-1. Mr Moore: I would like to answer that question, and of our friend Mr Nivison The Governor: The amendment is was in a position that he could say to carried and the original motion there- us in this Court today that the pension when you have worked until 65 was fore fails. I think this is- adequate to live on I wouldn't recom- mend that any of those people worked Deemster Kneale: The resolution as in the summer-time, 'but necessity amended, must now lbe voted on, sir. makes them go along in order to try and exist I am not against pensioners The Governor: Well, all right. The taking work I realise that the small motion as amended therefore. Those in boarding-house couldn't exist without favour saye aye, against no. them. I wouldn't want them to work from the rising of the sun to the going A division was called for and voting down at night, or midnight. I want to resulted as follows:— protect them. When you are old you go back into second childhood (laughter). In the Keys— We protect .the schoolchildren, well the old people have got to be protected from For: Miss Thornton-Duesbery, Messrs theim'elves. There is always the .oerson Anderson, Crowe, Kerruish, Rad- who wants to earn more. They are cliffe, Quayle, Crellin, Vereker, Cal- willing to earn more as long as it is put lister, Moore, Corkish, Irving, in their way and they must be protected Burke, Kneale and MacDonald-16. from. themselves. Six hours a day cer- tainly but not 14 cr 16 hours a day. Against: Messrs MacLeod, Spittall, Creer, Faragher, Simcocks, Dever- The Governor: I shall now nut the eau, Kelly and Sir Henry Sugden amendment. Thane in favour of substi- —8. tuting the words of the amendment, say aye, and those against no. In the Council— A division was called for and voting For: The Lord Bishop, Deemster resulted as follows:— Kneale, Messrs McFee, Nivison and In the Keys— Sir Ralph Stevenson-5. For:' Miss Thornton-Dues1bery, Messrs Against: The Attorney - General, Anderson, Crowe, Kerruish, Rad- Messrs Bolton and Nicholls-3. cliffe, Spittall, Quayle, Creer, Faragher, Crellin, Vereker, Irving, The Governor: Five in favour, three Burke, Kneale, Devereau and Sir against. The amended resolution is Henry Sugden—l6. therefore carried.

Pay and Conditions in the Tourist Industry.

TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 847 be deputy now. Will he have to get up into the chair and then have to step POWERS AND DUTY OF dawn when the permanent post is TREASURER. appointed? This can provide difficulties. I was hoping myself that it might have The Governor: Now I think we just been a joint position occupied by the have tilme for No 6. The Attorney- Government Secretary and Treasurer. General. Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, am I not right in thinking that the abject of The Attorney-General: Your Excel- this resolution is really to get over an lency, we have this morning signed the an administrative difficulty? Interpretation Bill and you all know the reason for that. Now then, this will The Attorney-General: Yes. take some time to get the Royal Assent and therefore we have brought in this Mr Simcocks: A large number of resolution which will enaible backed, amounts due to the Government under possibly by a power of attorney, will the private enterprise building scheme enaible Mr Kelly to perform the powers the housing advances scheme, etc., and duties imposed on the Treasurer monies are repaid and there is at the by various resolutions of Tynwald and moment a hiatus 'because there is no one thus save the difficulty and delay which who is qualified to sign a receipt to would otherwise be occasioned by hav- cancel and thus clear the title of pro- ing to send, a considerable number of perties which are changing hands. Now documents I assure Your Excellency, to whether it is right that we should have the Treasurer in London, and I beg to been left in this position by the some- move, sir, that — I beg to move the what precipitate departure of the resolution. Treasurer is another matter, and it is equally true, sir, that if we -pass this Deemster Kneale: I second it, Your resolution we can deal with the Excellency. schemes such as those I have mentioned but advances made under the Rural Mr Nivisan: I was hoping, Your Housing Acts, and there are others I Excellency, that this position might understand which will not be covered have been reverted to its original place by this scheme, the resolution will not whereby the Government Secretary was affect the situation but it will, I am sure, Government Secretary and Treasurer go a long way towards removing diffi- and I did mention that in the — this culties which I know from my own pro- was hinted at in the question which I fessional experience to exist, where asked earlier. It is thought by certain there are properties which changed people in the Isle of Man, in view of hands and we are still waiting for certain difficulties that are arising, that receipts to cancel to clear them. I am we might be getting too many generals certain that the temporary use of Mr round about the place and the powers Kelly's signature for the purpose of that are exercised sometimes by these signing receipts to cancel will in no way generals might well be trimmed some- endow him with the mantle of being what. This is not in opposition to Mr Treasurer. He is purely, I am sure, by Kelly personally. Mr Kelly is a most this resolution, given authority to sign efficient man — I am purely speaking documents. Certainly not to don the of the power that is exercised by the mantle of the Treasurer. position of Treasurer and I thought in this interim period it would have been The Governor: That is correct. right to appoint the Government Secre- tary. How difficult it is going to be Mr Burke: Your Excellency, would I when the appointment is made, if it is be in order in asking how long it will be not the same person that is going to before a new Treasurer is appointed?

Powers and Duty of Treasurer. 848 TY•NWA•LD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

The Governor: There will be a meet- to sign receipts to cancel and grant ing of the Civil Service Commission on loans and debentures and so on under Thursday to interview candidates and Your Excellency's Order. that meeting will also be attended by myself and the Finance Board, so it may The Governor: Is that agreed? well be that by 5 o'clock on Thursday we shall have a new Treasurer, we do It was agreed. not know. The Governor: The Court will now Deeimster Kneale: If he can take over adjourn until 2-30 p.m. then.

Mr Kneale: Your Excellency, the learned Attorney mentioned that the WAIVING OF STANDING ORDERS reason tha- this resolution is that it will TO .CONSIIDER SUPPLEMENTARY take considerable time to get the Royal AGENDA, Assent for this Interpretation Act. I wonder why we didn't ,pull the same strings we did with the Usury Act when The Governor: Now if hon. members we both passed it on the same day. Why will once again turn to the Supplemen- they both couldn't be signed. tary Agenda No. 1, I will call upon the Attorney-General. Mr MacDonald: One that was in the national interest. The Attorney-General: Your Excel- lency, I have an apology to make to the Mr MacLeod: Surely, Your Excel- Court and that is that when I moved the lency, if the Civil Service Commission matter mentioned as first on the Supple- have a meeting on Friday to appoint a mentary Agenda, I asked for Standing person to this position, and whoever is Orders to be suspended. That was en- appointed to it will be one of those kind tirely wrong. You will see that set out of people who will have to give about for your information that I should move six months' notice. We will be a con- that permission be granted under siderable time without a Treasurer. In Standing Order 27 (6) for the following the meantime we are going to have Mr business to be considered. Standing Kelly. Will Mr Kelly's salary be ad- Order 27 (6) says "no business except justed to that of the Treasurer, and at that mentioned in any agenda paper the same time in view of the financial other than amendments to motions shall difficulty of the Finance Board, will we be considered except by permission of a have enough money to pay this? resolution of Tynwald supported by a quorum' of both branches". A quorum The Attorney-General: Your Excel- of the House of Keys, as hon. members lency, could I just reply to the one point will be well aware, is 13 — a quorum made by the hon. member for Rushen, of Legis:ative Council is six. In fact, Mr Simcocks, talked about difficulties if I had moved the resolution that I was under the Rural Housing Act and so on told to move then the resolution would which this resolution does not cover. In have carried. I am not going to repeat fact, Your Excellency has Made an the arguments in favour of the erron- Order under section 14 of the Inter- eous resolution that I moved. I am pretation Act, empowering Mr Kelly to merely going, because they have been carry out the statutory duties of the put forcibly to you already, I am merely Treasurer with the exception of certain going to move that, on the instructions ones such as being your Chief Financial of His Excellency, that this matter Adviser and so on, but he will be able which is not on the agenda paper, be

Waiving of Standing Orders to consider Supplementary Agenda. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 849

considered. 1 beg to move Your Excel- TOURIST ACCOMMODATION— lency. INTERIM REPORT OF COMMITTFIE OF EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Deemster Kneale: I second it, Your —ACCEPTED. Excellency, The Governor: Item 7 on the main The Governor: Is that agreed? agenda, I call on the chairman of the Tourist Board. Mr Nivison: In support of that I would say "Where there is a will there Mr Quayle: Your Excellency, in the is a way, sir", and I am delighted that absence of Mr Speaker I beg to move. a way can be found, when the will is. WHEREAS Tynwald on the 12th day of there. I hope it will always be there. December, 1M. passed the following resolu- tion—

"That the Interim Report of the Tourist Accommodation Committee of Executive Council be and the same hereby adopted." ANNOUNCEMENT OF ROYAL NOW THEREFORE Tynwald respectfully ASSENT. • requests His Excellency the Lieutenant- Governor to introduce legislation providing for assistance to he paid to persons wishing The Governor: Thank you. Now in to amalgamate uneconomic tourist accommo- accordance with the terms of section 2 dation units in accordance with the of the Acts of Tynwald (Emergency recommendation contained in paragraph 13 Promulgation) Act, 1916, I have to in- of such interim Report. form the Court that the Royal Assent was given to the following Acts on the Members will be well aware that at the 26th January, 1968 — Income Tax Act, last sitting, or the sitting but one, the 1968, and to the following Act on the Court accepted the Interim Report of 8th February, 1968 — The Usury Act, the Tourist Accommodation Committee 1968. and adopted such report. The present resolution, Your Excellency, is that you. sir, be respectfully requested to intro- duce legislation providinglor assistance to be paid to persons wishing to almiat- PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT. garnate uneconomic tourist accommoda- tion units in accordance with the recom- The Governor: I call on the Clerk to mendation contained in paragraph 13 lay papers, of such interim report. I do not wish to dwell on paragraph 13 - The Cleek: 1 lay before the Court. it being in all members hands—but simply to move the resolution which is Isle of Man Diseases of Animals (Pre- to introduce legislation. No doubt con- vention) Acts, 1948 and 1953. tained in that legislation will be sugges- tions for interest rates and the like. Importation of Fresh Vegetables The-e being the topics of the day. But (Prohibition) (Amendment) Order, that, sir, is not before us. What is be- 1968. fore us is to implement, by legislation, the resolution which has, in fact, been Foot and Mouth Disease (Revocation) adopted by Tynwald, and I so beg to Order, 1968. move.

Foot and Mouth Disease (Revocation) Mr P. Radcliffe: I would like to second (No. 2) Order, 1968. and reserve my remarks,

Announcement of Royal Assent.—Papers laid before the Court.—Tourist AccomModation—Interim Report of Committee of Executive Council—Accepted, 850 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

The Governor: Is that agreed? holiday bungalows, and the definition we+,it on to say in the original scheme, Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, before for the accommodation of tourists, with it is agreed to — this is not the resolu- or witnout board, but not "motels," Now tion where it is going to increase the nobody knows what a "motel" is. It is grant from 20 per cent. to 40 per cent. an Americanism. I have been down to the public library, at least that is not The Governor: No, sir. true, I haven't, but I have caused en- quiries to be made there. It was agreed. Deem.ster Kneele: It would have astounded me if it had been,

IMPROVEMENT OF TOURIST The Attorney-General: We have ACCOMMODATION SCHEME, 1968— looked at the American dictionaries APPROVED there and they give no precise definition of what a "motet" is. The Governor; Item 8. The Attorney- General. Mr MacLeod: I can give you the definition of "motel." The Attorney-General: Your Excel- lency, I beg to move:— The Attorney-General: You can tell me? Splendid. but Webster's Dictionary That Tynwald hereby approves the Im- can't. (Laughter.) Now what we have provement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1968. altered it to is "Hotels, boarding-houses, service flats, holiday bungalows and Copies of the order: that is the Im- such other premises for the accommo- provement of Tourist Accommodation dation of tourists. whether with or with- Scheme. have been circulated to mem- out board, as may be from time to t!me bers, and really the gravamen of it is approved for the purposes of this that Tynwald approves the report of the scheme by the Local Government sub-committee of Executive Council, Board after consultation with the which contains two items we are par- Tourist Board." Now that is a wide ticularly concerned with with this order, definition, Your Excellency, and I think and that was the interim report of the it is a wise amendment, and paragraph Tourist Accommodation Committee of 3 merely substitutes 40 per cent for Executive Council was approved by 20 per cent in the appropriate place. I Tynwald on 12th December, 1967, beg to move the resolution, Your Excel- recommended inter alia that the Gov- lency. ernmeht grant of 20 per cent. of the total cost of any development, to which Mr Quayle: I beg to second: the Improvement of Tourist Accommo- dation Scheme, 1962, applies, should be The Acting-Speaker: Your Excel-. increased to 40 per cent., and also that lency, could the Court be given • a the definition of tourist premises in little bit more i n f ormation on the scheme should be widened. The last this in regard to the fact that we mentioned item appears In article two, are faced with paying — borrowing or paragraph two of this scheme, that money at a higher rate of interest for the definition of tourist premises Which seems evident—which is quite there should be substituted the follow- inevitable in the circumstances, and if ing definition—namely that it mean's we are going to continue with this idea hotels, boarding-houses, service flats, of handling out money for the first

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1968—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, .1968 851 three years free of interest, I take it had today is either, the fourth or the that this comes within that category. iiitn attempt, so the sixth attempt mignt it certainly increases the votes from 20. be in triree years time and we will stilt per cent, to 40 per cent. —well on an oe Iota trie same am story tnat we 2.800,000. odd neiore. Now the identical words of Mr Crowe, the non. member who was Mr MacLeod: A grant? cnairman of the Finance Board in those days, in 1904, nave been repeated in The Acting-Speaker: Well a grant. me House or rieys and tnen here again I'm speaking of a grant— today. 'hie some old story, and I do not want to be tole in anotner three years' Mr MacLeod: You were not. time we are in the cart again and wnere are be going to get tee money ? If we The Acting-Speaker: Well, just a continue with this sort of method of minute, give me a chance. On a aealing with grants and loans you can't £800,000 hotel they reckon that a possibly go on like this, and I am cer- bedroom now costs about £3,400, tainly not going to vote this afternoon which includes the lounges, the until we see wnere we are going. stillrooms and all the facilities that go with a modern hotel. That is going to be Mr Irving: Your Excellency, I think £300,000 on an £800,000 capital expense hon. members should remember, in view in providing the hotel £300,000. In ad- of the remarks of Mr Acting-Speaker, dition to all that, the Government would that even if we pass this today finan- automatically have to find a proportion cial control can be maintained by the of the balance free of interest for the amount inserted in the Budget. It may first three years, and then this rate of well be, sir, that we might not be in interest which is laid down by Act at a position to insert any amount in the 3 per cent.—how long could you con- Budget to cover. this scheme, in that tinue carrying on with terms like that? case there would be no grants. On the Now this is what I am concerned about. other hand a limited amount could be I only spoke—it is two or three years placed in the Budget and, therefore, ago and I spoke to Mr Carney about grants under this particular scheme the possibility of having this reviewed, would be limited to that particular and he said possibly it was time to have amount, but I would like hon. members, it reviewed, but now we have reached whether they are for it or against it, a stage where you are going to borrow to appreciate the fact that there is some money at a higher rate of Interest and financial control on this matter. hand it out for nothing; which is an- other grant in that sense, and I think Mr McFee: Your Excellency, I am the Court would be entitled to more in- going to move, sir, that this matter be formation before we launch ourselves adjourned and consideration of the mat- under this scheme. I take it this scheme, ter be adjourned until after the Budget of course, is a scheme approved by has been presented, because I am not Tynwald. It is not like an Act of Par- prepared, sir, although I am in general liament; it is -not legislation at all; it is in favour of a boost to the tourist in- just a resolution. of Tynwald which dustry, I am not prepared to commit automatically follows—once it is passed myself today—in view of the financial it is on the way. I don't want to be implications and statements that have told in about three years time we been made to the Court this last few haven't got the money again, because weeks, to commit myself to give grants that is—we are going to have a repeti- of 40 per cent. to hoteliers when there tion of this affair. This attempt we have is a possibility that we may not get

Improvement of Tourist ACcommodation Scheme, WWI—Approved. 852 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 grants for hospitals, schools, and so on, me, especially in view of all the circum- provided in the Budget. I believe, sir, stances that have recently been brought that at the moment the Court should to our notice. I think that it would be not consider arny financial schemes or ludicrous, Your EXcelleney, for us to commit themselves to anything of this proceed into schemes that we might kind until we hear a complete review find it difficult to finance, and even of the Budget and Budget proposals. 1 leave existing schemes in jeopardy. I have one slight criticism to make of the would suggest, as I did in another place committee in this respect, or the E.,cecu- recently, Your Excellency, that we do tive Council, whoever is responsible for not want to slam the brakes on, but I this resolution, and that is in presenting think that we do want to steady up a this scheme I feel that it would have bit and see exactly where we are going, been much wiser to have considered the and especially a,s the Budget is so near, most urgent problems first, and I think I feel that it is the duty of this hon. that when this was originally introduced Court to defer the consideration on to the Court it was stated the most this matter until we see how things are urgent consideration should be given going to balance out. to those smaller houses and to those Manx young people who have no capital Deemster Kneale: You are seconding whatever but are prepared, if capital Mr McFee, are you? was provided, that they will take over the smaller houses from the present oc- Mr Anderson: I didn't actually second cupants who are growing old and can- it, but— not get rid of their houses and who en- tirely depend upon the sale of the Mr Nicholls: 1 will be prepared to houses to retire. This problem, sir, has second it. not been considered, but what we have placed before us is consideration given The Governor: Mr Bolton. to the big companies—those who per- haps are concerned in financial cor- Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I am porations, who can afford to buy five entirely opposed to this matter, regard- or six small units, knock them into one less of the budget. I feel that to con- and float companies for this purpose, template paying 40 per cent, by way and it seems to me that the accent anti of grant is quite unreasonable, and if recommendation is in favour of the we need to pay this kind of money in affluent and the higher income company order to attract people to come and type of person, to the detriment of the build hotels ih the Isle of Man, well very persons which were suggested in then I cannot think that it is very the first place in the resolution that worthwhile totry and attract them. We the tourist industry should be reviewed, must remember that this is a grant— and because of that, sir, I am moving the 40 per cent.—not a loan. It is not now that this matter be adjourned until a question of us ever getting it back. the Budget is considered. It would be very unwise for us to con- template bonrow2ng money for any Mr Anderson: Your Excellency, in length of time to give away as grant, consideration of many of these matters particularly when we have so many arising in this hon. Court, the one other calls on the money that we are criterion that must come to my mind able to borrow. As the hon. member of is that if this were my money, would the Council has already said, hospitals, I be prepared to make this sort of schools, houses, all manner of matters investment, and certainly this item this which must be dealt with, and which afternoon does not commend itself to we must implement by spending bor-

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1968—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 853 rowed money. To my mind, it would be gest that to put a thing through like very bad practice indeed for us to be this and feel that the real safeguard— nor-crowing money to meet grants. So the real prevention is going to be done tnat we are going to have to take very by the Finance Board is a wrong con- considerable sums of money out of the ception altogether of the duties of the revenues annually if we are going to Finance Board. Wheo all is said and meet this kind of charge. It is 20 per done, the Finance Board does control cent. at present, and the idea behind the Budget to a very considerable ex- this resolution is to double that figure tent, and could say: "Even though you to 40 per cent, leaving the developers to have provided £500,000 for this, we are find only 60 per cent. of the cost. Now not going to put it in." I would not the hon. member, Mr Irving, has sug- like to see that positiOn arising at all gested that there will still be financial as chairman of the Finance Board, and I control over the .spending of this money. wouldn't like any Finance Board to I agree entirely with him that there will carry the responsibility for making be further financial control, but it is those decisions. Therefore, I do plead not the kind of control that I consider with the Court to let the matter remain to be satisfactory. If we are going to as it is. It may be said that it hasn't have the Finance Board in there as the attracted any developers; I am quite "Big, Bad Wolf" clamping down on the sure that if we go on offering sprats decisions tnat are made by other Boards until we do attract these developers, on these matters, then the Finance we shall finish up by giving hotels Board are going to be most unpopular— away. I don't find one atom of pleasur- if they are not already so—and I would able feeling towards this particular not like to see the Finance Board or resolution and I shall certainly oppose- His Excellency put in a positiOn of it. having to say, "very well, that is the scheme, Tynwald approves it, the Mr MacDonald: Your Excellency, I Tourist Board likes it, the Local Gov- won't be long old this. There is one ernment Board likes it, but the Finance thing to which I would like to draw the Board says no." Now that kind of situa- attention of the Court, and that is tion won't do. I suggest that Tynwald commonsense. Now in 1967-68, the hon. must accept its own responsibilities and members who were very loud in opposi- must say they are not going to do these tion to amendment of the Usury Act- things. a variation of the interest rates—are the biggest spenders—they are the MT Niviscro: I hope you do that in all chairmen of the biggest spenders of things, sir. Government money in the Island at the moment. Ii won't bother about the new Mr Bolton: We do that in all things. estimates they have submitted to the Finance Board—look at last year's es- Mr Nivison: Thank-you. timates. These four Boards—one I will have to bring in, the Local Govern- Mr Bolton: The biggest difficulty, sir, ment Board—but if we look at the that the hon. member suffers from is Health Services, Social Services, Educa- understanding what we are doing. tion and Local Government Board, their last year's estimates, capital and reve- Mr Nivison: I will explain it to you nue demands on the Island Treasury. later. amounted to £5,713,694.

Mr Bolton: The learned Deemster cays Mr Nivison: Are- we on the right "unless it suits his purpose." I do sug- resolution, by the way?

arnprovement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1968—Approved. 854 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

Mr MacDonald; Yes we are. At the Mr Irving: Of course it isn't. same time the total Government reve- nue receipts were 6,527,000. We had Mr MacDonald: It is one of the rea- then just over a million pounds for all sons. No one can tell me, Your Excel- the rest at Government spending, and lency, that this magnificent road run- yet today we are faced with a nonsense ning out beyond the Douglas Head has when someone is attempting to give orought .a penny to the Isle of Man. away 40 per cent grants as gifts to No one can• tell me at the moment that people building things in the isle of the Grand Island Hotel has put a penny Man—which I am quite certain about into the Manx Exchequer. It has paid will not attract one more tourist to tree l per cent, or something, but what is island; I am certain of it. Now tnis that? scneme, let us look at it. At the moment we are in the ridiculous position where The Attorney-General: It is putting people can come along, private com- money in. There are people coming here panies, and they can borrow money who would never have come if the from the Government. They pay no in- Grand Island Hotel had not been there. terest on this money for three years, then they pay only 3 per cent—as long Mr MacDonald: I don't believe it; the as they go on paying the money they number of tourists who came to this only pay 3 per cent—and yet, as a re- Island last year are no more than any sult of this injection of public money, other year. Figures are produced ;,o they are allowed to get away with pay- baffle us with science by the tourist ing 20 per cent dividends to their share- trade. They try and tell us we get holders within two years of borrowing 400,000 visitors. The B.T.A. don't know the money. Now just how ridiculous can it; they say 260,000; and I would like to we get? We are giving money away, know if all this money is coming to the and this new scheme, this new wild island, where is it going to? If the idea is just another one. Give them tte tourist trade is earning the money, why money, Barney; give it away. We have should we give them 40 per cent grants? reached the stage when we can no If they are earning the money, let them longer go on doing this, and l'll be quite develop themselves; everyone else has frank—as an individual on the Finance to. I will oppose it to the end. Board — this year I hope that the Finance Board will put before you Mr Nicholls: Your Excellency. I at- facts which you cannot argue with; that tempted to get to my feet earlier on to for seven years money has been second the amendment moved by my chucked away in this Island. Given colleague, Mr McFee, but I was perhaps away as gifts to all sorts of wildcat fortunately prevented from doing so schemes which have not brought a at that time, because I was rather sur- penny of revenue in. We are now facing prised to hear from the chairman of the consequences of it, by having to put the Finance Board that the Finance the interest rates up to borrow the Board are so much against the resolu- money to pay for mad schemes like tion. this. Anywhere in the Island, tell me anywhere— Mr Bolton: That is only me. Mr Irving; That is not true. That is not the reason for the interest rates Mr Nicholls: I see, nevertheless, it is going up, and you know that very well. two out of three now, isn't it? After all, sir, this is a financial resolution, Mr MacDonald: It is one of the and I was under the impression that sons. all financial resolutions had to have the

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1088—.Aprproved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 855 sanction of the Finance Board. Mr Quayle: Your Excellency, I am supporting the resolution, sir, but 1 do Mr Irving: Not support; not the sup- go a long way with certain words that port of the Board surely? have been said here this afternoon - and that is, let Tynwald face up to its Mr Nicholls: But they had to have responsibility. Now if today it is the wish of Tynwald to reject this resolu- their sanction before it was put on the tion, sir, I say fair enough, Tynwald is agenda. the Government. But let us look at the history. In 1962, under the chairman- Mr Nivison: I can give you that assur- ship of a Commission headed by the ance myself. I can give chapter and now First Deemster, there came forward verse later on about that. the major hotel scheme, and part of it was grants of 20 per cent, based virtu- Mr Nicholls: After having heard the ally on the Boarde Failte of Ireland. various speakers I have changed my It was their scheme to encourage hotels, mind about seconding the amendment and highly successful were they with it. and I am going to oppose the resolutiOn We introduced a similar scheme to get for the very reason which has been put at that time, a maximum of say, four forward by the opponents who have al- major hotels on this Island, bearing in ready spdken. mind that not two bricks had been put together since 1911 in hotel construction. Mr Callister: But it has not been seconded. Mr McFee: That is wrong. Mr Nicholls: It hasn't been seconded, Mr Quayle; It is correct. but I am talking about the resolution, not the amendment. I think the reso- Mr McFee: There are two hotels in lution has been seconded-- the south.

The Governor: And the amendment Mr Bolton: There were very consider- The amendment was seconded by Mr able extensions. Nivison, so I am informed. Deemster Kneale: There was one in Mr Nicholls: Oh, I didn't hear it, sir. Port Erin built by Cross — you remem- When the Usuary Act, which has been ber — the Imperial, on the hill. such a bone of contention today, when that was being discussed by the Legis- Mr Quayle: I am near enough accu- lative Council I ventured to suggest at rate, I won't argue over a few months. that time, during the debate, that it was Now in the interim, we have had one long past the time that this hon. Court hotel built with no aid from Govern- called a halt to expenditure — capital ment, under special circumstances, so expenditure and unnecessary expendi- that let us put aside. The object of this ture of any kind. That it was time we exercise was to get possibly four hotels. called a halt and weighed up our finan- With a grant of 20 per cent., not one cial position to see where we were head- taker has come forward, Not one. Now ing. And I think this is one of the how is this accounted for? It is instances where we can call a halt. I obviously uneconomic to build new fab- don't think it is necessary. Already rics at today's building cost on a season there is provision for a 20 per cent. of any domestic holiday resort in Bri- grant and to increase it to 40 is, I think, tain. Let us not deprecate the Isle of just out of the question at this moment. Man's tour!st season. The Isle of Man's I shall vote against the resolution, tourist season is longer than most in

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1968—Approved. 856 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

Britain. Let us listen to the words of friend on the Local Government Board my hon. friend from Peel, who said that can ban it on planning if there happens the B.T.A. didn't know anything about to be an ancient wall in the middle of that. I would assure you, gentlemen, the site. This happened recently. The that the B.T.A. know very little about. Finance Board can find ail sorts of much. I was able to report to my Board objections through Usury and others. yesterday that domestic resorts in Bri- The Tourist Board can say, That is not tain in general dor the 1968 season are the site — it should be 10 yards that showing inquiries of 20 per cent. dawn. way." This is easy. But let us face the We, in this Is:and, are showing inquiries principle — do we want new fabric of two per cent. do-win. In otner words, hotels- or do we not. That is what is and my Board members will confirm before us. If we want conversions you this, we are showing an 18 per cent. have now given us the tools to do tnis. lead on domestic resorts. Now why is If that is going to 'be the full stop, if it this We know the reason for the de- is your considered opinion tnat in years cline. The decline has come because the to come — and this not so daft as it great British public are scared stiff of sounds — Victoriana may well come tne 19th of March. They spent all their back as the "in" architecture, and I am money around the Christmas period and informed by a reliable source that this now they are sitting back to see what could happen, then fair enough, reject the Prime Minister proposes to do in this resolution. Let us forget about it. his budget. And one quite understands Let us have nobody else sniffing round this. But why are we riding ahead to spend money on hotel development (A), I suppose, because of an excellent in the Isle of Man. Today, on this issue, publicity campaign, better by far than, is a day of decision. I feel a feeling in the B.T.A's—and the figures prove it— the Court today, sir, that we are tying and secondly, by looking after the tour- this terribly closely to the actions of the ist, keeping the tariff commensurate last fortnight, connected with usury. I with today's costs, and trying to give don't want to be a prophet in 1968, I them decent accommodation. I have al- was in 1960 when I said then, gentle- ready said, to provide new accommoda- men, we cannot have cheap money in a tion is uneconomic. The Court has just sea of dear money—and again in 1962, agreed to go half-way. The resolution in the same argument. And in 1968 we have Mr Speaker's name, the last resolution, accepted the principle, as we have to, where we are going to hope to put it is obvious. Now let us accept the together units which win be nearer principle now sir, that our season will economic than before. This particular stand economically, 60 per cent. of the resolution is the ultimate stage — this cost of a new hotel, or it won't. And is the new fabric. This is the tissue Tynwald, with a clear conscience— want Tynwald to face, one way or the other. It is cleanly proved that on a 20 The Acting-Speaker: You said "60" per cent. grant there will he no takers. you know. Equally, Tynwald, members of Tynwald consider that 40 per cent. inducement Mr Quayle: I said it will stand 60 per may well bring a new fabric. IL may cent., 40 per cent, grant in other words. not, I don't know, but it is a change. Either we want new bricks and mortar Now it is up to Tynwald to say, without or we can get by on the old. I will be hiding behind the Finance Board, with- quite happy, Your Excellency, provided out hiding behind the Tourist Board or this is out of the way— the Local Government Board—because we can put every obstacle in the way Mr Kneale: Your Excellency, I am of this resolution if we wish. My good op-posing this resolution and I would

Improvement oilTourist Accommodation Scheme, 1968Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, .1968 857 underline every word Mr Bolton said. bedrooms after the amalgamation has He said everything that I wanted to say, been completed.'' with the exception of the remarks made by the hon, memlber for Peel, when he The Governor: We are talking about referred to the big spenders, the three the Improvement of Tourist Accommo- Boards who are the big spenders. As the dation Scheme, 1968. chairman of one of those Boards, I Mr Quayle: Developments of over would say it is not the big spenders that £50,000. have caused this situation, it is the big lenders and the big wasters.. And this Mr Callister: Which are already ad- is another example of the big lenders mitted to be uneconomic in many cases. without any return. We know what That is not the point I really wanted to happened to the people about whom we make. I have called the last seven or have been told by the hon. chairman eight years the prodigal years, and they of the Tourist Board. The people who certainly have been. We have been have mitred round on hotel accommoda- lashing'money to all sorts of vested in- tion so far, and have had tremendous terests, to private individuals at such loans which have virtually become a rate that we are now in a mess. Here grants because they have run away and we are going to give 40 per cent, grants left us holding the baby, that if this to people to improve their capital in- is the kind of people who come sniffing vestment over which they have got no round, we could do very well without control. The capital appreciation in their noses in our pie. these houses is going to be abnormal, and yet we are going to hand it over Mr Callister: Your Excellency, I am to individuals who own the houses. We rather concerned about this grant to- have got an example of that in the two wards houses that already do not pay. housing schemes. The hon. member for Middle, Mr Quayle, referred to the fact that a cer- Deemster Kneale: Let us have a break tain type were uneconomic. Now I do on housing schemes. agree that many of up-town small houses are invaluable to the tourist Mr Callister: You are going to get it, industry, but as we know from the last whether you like it or not. census we have got 9,000 fewer beds in Douglas, or in the Island, because they Deemster Kneale: It is not doing you were not needed. Now we are going to any good, anyway. pump money into little houses which obviouely — one can see for oneself - 'Mr Callister: I don't care whether it are not paying. does me any good or not. I know that you borrowed £2,000.000 which has gone The Attorney-General: Your Excel- half the way towards landing you in the lency, has this anything to do-- mess .you are in. The £2,000,000 has gone to individuals who are wealthy and Mr Callister: We are talking about you have handed out already over £100,000 in grants to private enterprise anybody who will take in visitors. schemes. Mr Spittall: No — try No. 8. The Attorney-General: This, Your Excellency, has got even less to do with Mr Burke: For the member's informa- the resolution than his earlier remarks, tion, Your Excellency, page eight says, which is rather extraordinary, I didn't "which would contain a minimum of 50 think he could manage it.

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Mr Callister: I am talking about ad- spending money here, there and every- vancing money unnecessarily and wast- where, so therefore we cannot get ing it, and I am telling you how you money and there is no confidence in have been doing it. The £2,000,000 you the Government. Now I am not of that raised for these schemes has brought opinion at all. I think this Court should you to the mess you are in today. You make it quite clear that the Isle of Man have handed out £100,000 already and had to pass the Usury Bill to lift the rate you are going to hand out another to 7 per cent. so that she could borrow £100,000, and you are going to employ the money she would normally be bor- two more civil servants to run it for 30 rowing in the normal state of affairs. I years at £2,000 a year. Complete mad- don't think that we should condemn ness. if you said to me that these people everything that is coming forward now who are improving these houses are because the Island i:1 financially finished. going to stay in them for the next 30 It is no such thing or at least I don't years, and at the end of that time the think so and I have still confidence in Government will reap the captital ap- our Government. preciation, I could begin to understand your financing. But you are lashing out Mr P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, first the peop:e's money to people who are of all if I could draw the attention of already making a lot and they are im- hon. members of this Court to the re- proving their capital investments. marks made by my hon. colleague on the r...o-cal Government Board, Mr Faragher: They are making a loss. IVIcFee. He referred to this committee and said the main intention — as he Mr Callister: hf they are making a loss hoped we would see it — was to give you shouldn't give them a penny. The encouragement to young people to pur- hon. member for Peel is right. I doubt chase smaller units. I understand this very much whether this particular has already been done, haven't we scheme will bring another visitor to the extended the Housing Advances I ie of Man, and we have reached that Scheme? stage where we cannot get to the half- million mark. We had 600,000 people Mr McFee: It doesn't go far enough. coming to the Isle of Man in 1913 and it is costing us three or four times as Mr Radcliffe: Well, at least the first much to get the number we are getting step was taken. But to follow up the now We have got to re-organise our resolution before hon. members at the thinking and our investments and our present moment, as the chairman of the outlook for the future. Contrary to Tourist Board has already said, al- some speakers, I am not one of those though this scheme has been in opera- who wants the Isle of Man to reach a tion since 1962, up to now there have stage of stagnation. I would like to see been no takers whatsoever. The Local capital investment for real progress and Government Board have consulted development, but not lashing out money numerous people who have come to the to patch up old hotels and houses. Isle of Man and spoken about develop- ment and have turned the scheme down. Mr Faragher: Your Excellency, I Now I would just like to point out at would just like one point cleared up in this stage, mention has been made about my mind. We have heard several mem- hotel accommodation. In the scheme it bers here this afternoon mention the distinctly says tourist premises means words that our Island is finished, finan- hotels, boarding houses, service flats and cially finished, or words to that effect. holiday bungalows. Reference has also Tl.e Usury Act has been blamed, that been made to the Irish scheme, from we are finished, that we have been which our 1962 scheme was taken. In

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1968—Approved. TYTNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 859 that scheme it also distinctly says that will be no al:owance made for such a grants shall be given to providing new scheme anyhow, and we will therefore accommodation in certain areas. Now have to wait another year, and in the I have already mentioned this in meantime we are going to get no one another place and it was felt that this interested in developing in Ramsey. was not feasible. To me it is very think the main idea of this scheme is feasible, and I think it should be in- to try and encourage somebody to erect cluded in the scheme, that it should be an hotel in a specific area. The Irish left entirely with this hon. Court or scheme distinctly says so, that it shall whoever is operating the scheme, to be within an area as agreed by the Irish decide where this money is going to be Government, and I thing we could made available. This hon. Court restrict this to development where and accepted the responsibility some years whew we want it. With that restric- tion I think the scheme would be very ago of developing South Ramsey. In feasible. I beg to support it, that scheme it said that tourist accom- modation in one form or another, either hote:s or chalet development or what- Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, I think ever you may have, was to be provided we want to be very careful lest we on Ramsey promenade. The Local GGV- should blow hot and cold on our ap- proach towards the tourist industry. It e r n men i Board have gone to the extent of actually offering the land on Ramsey is only a few months ago that this promenade free to a developer if he Court decided that they would give would build a new hotel there, and there every possible support to the tourist has not been any participators. I would industry, Now there does seem a possi- think we have an obligation in.the Isle bility, because of the climate in which of Man at the present time to provide we are living, that this principle might this accommodation in Ramsey and I be— would like to see this scheme passed today for 40 per cent. grants, whereby Mr Bolton: May I just ask on a point we could and encourage people to come of order whether the hon. member did here and put un this aecommodation not second the amendment, sir? Otherwise the Government themselves are going to be faced with the fact that Mr Nivison: It was claimed that I did, they have got to do it, and it is going but I didn't do so. to cost us at least — for 100-bedroom hotel or 100-bedroom unit of chalet The Governor: It has not been secon- accommodation — something in the ded yet? region of 2450,000. Mr Nivison: Not by me, sir. Deemster Kneale: Why? We don't want it now, we have the Grand Island Deemster Kneale: I asked Mr Ander- Hotel in place of it, haven't we? son if he would, but he dodged it. Mr Radcliffe: I beg to differ. I per- Mr Nivison: We do recall the great sonally think that that area is a pro- enthusiasm with which the resolution menade area that has got to be which was put to this Court by Mr developed as tourist accommodation. I Speaker and others in the defence of would beg the Court to support this the defence of the maintenance, never resolution. It has been mentioned that mind improvement, of the tourist in- it should be deferred until after the dustry. There are three main sources estimates, until after the budget. If it of new money coming to the Isle of is deferred until after the budget there Man. The main source for many years

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1968—Approved. 860 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

has been looked upon to be the tourist to develop in this direction—we could industry. Every tourist who comes to then revert to getting larger numbers. the Island brings his money with him, it the busy time of the year at the and it's money from without. There are moment we are getting the maximum. otner sources. Now rapidly growing is There are at this time of the year many, the industrial revolution that is taking many, letters sent back to people be- place (whereby we have over 1,000 cause accommodation is not available to people in tne engineering industry people in the latter two weeks in July. alone, producing large lumps of money At this time of the year, letters are .tiom witnout—most valuable. And tnere being returned in large numbers. are other sources treat bring in money trom without; but without any question, Mr MacDonald: You cannot build a the tourist industry has been the main. place for two weeks. one and it will continue to be the main one for many years to come. It is Mr Nivison: No one is suggesting that, assumed that we get approximately my friend, and surely you would not half-a-million visitors to the Isle of subscribe to that. Man, and it was stated that these visi- tors spent on an average £15 per head. Mr Callister: Can you verify that, It is claimed by many people who sir. that visitors who have made appli- study this, that this figure is under cation for rooms have been told they the actual. This money then is distri- cannot have accommodation? buted around the Isle of Man, and a lot of it was shaken off on to many of us. Mr Nivison: I am telling you that Many of the pasnle in the Isle of Man there are large numbers of letters at depend upon this. The building of this time of the year being returned private houses, the building of shops. to tourists because the accommodation the !entertainment world—all benefit is filled. because of this. And there is a grave danger, Your Excellency, that the ac- Mr Callister. Thit particular accom- commodation in order to meet this '- modation? going down and down and down, and is not being replaced at all. The chair- Mr Nivison: That particular accom- man of the Tourist Board has stated modation. that we have had the Casino and Palace Hotel on the Promenade, and apart Mr Canister: But other accommoda- from that we have had very little else. tion is still available? We know we have had a couple in be- tween the wars in the south of the Mr Nivision: There may well be in Island. We know we have two in other places. In the Tourist Board, as Hutchinson Square. I can just remem- the season goes on we find we get num- ber them being built. But apart from bers of letters whereby peoole say they that we have had very little tourist have tried umpteen different places and accommodation, and it is thought that are unable to get accommodation and in order to increase tbrt -ccommodation they then come and seek the help of the that will be available, that the bungalow Tourist Board to try and fix them! up. type of accommodation might well be, There is no question about it, the or what somebody tried to describe as accommodation is getting smaller and the motel with the annexe type of ac- sma:ler. Now all that we want to do, commodation—it might be that for the those of us who support that some finan- future. I believe that people—if suffi- cial assistance should be given to en- cient encouragement was given to them courage people to develop accommoda-

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1968—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 861 tion, is to spell out loud and clear to the The Governor: But you have spoken representatives of this Court that unless already. they do something this accommodation will become less and less and the value Mr Callister: I have snoken to the of the tourist industry will become less resolution. and less and eventually will peter out altogether. Because it has got to such The Governor: But you spoke since a state now, and it is getting worse Mr McFee. every year, whereby the numbers of people — particularly at certain times Mr Callister:: But you would rule me of the year — do not warrant the enter- out of order if I spoke to an amendment tainment that the visitors demand. I that wasn't seconded. I am quite in would hope that 'we should not reject order, sir. this. The chairman or the Local Gov- ernment Board, I was very impressed The Governor: I think you are out by his contribution. It is largely to en- of order, but would anybody second Mr courage people to come and build MeFee's amendment? places — this is what it is for, this resolution. Do not let us reject it at Mr Moore: I beg to second. this stage. There are plenty of people who can place obstacles in the way as The Governor: Mr Moore has time goes along. Do not let Tynwald seconded it. Shall we ask the learned say that they do not want to give en- Attorney to reply? couragement to people to come over here and build accommodation, because Mr Canister: Your Excellency. I claim with this accommodation will come per- the right to speak to the amendment. haps additional people, but at least we will be alble to maintain what we have The Governor: All right, carry on. had in the pag and unless we do that we will have to find a new source of Mr Ca:lister: I do so for this reason, income as this source goes down and sir, I was surprised at the hon. member down. I would apnea: to the Court to of the Council, Mr Nivison, misleading support the resolution as its stands, with this Court and the public and the visi- the full knowledge that there are plenty tors. To say that accommodation in of brakes to go on as the thing this Island is not available for them develops. Mr Nivison: Now don't misinterpret Mr Canister: In seconding the amend- what I said. ment, sir— Mr Callister: I want to put this right. The Governor: You have spoken al- You tried to tell us that because appli- ready. cations were being returned, we need to build more houses or remodel more Mr Callister: No, Mr Nivison says houses if they come, there was no seconder. The Governor: This is not speaking The Governor: You cannot speak to the amendment. If you wish to speak again because you have spoken since Mr an the amendment you must argue that McFee, but would any hon. member the debate be adjourned tintil after the like to second Mr McFee's amendment? estimates. That is the amendment.

Mr Callister: I am seconding it, sir. Mr Callister: I am speaking in favour

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, I968—Approved. 862 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1068 of the resolution — that it be not Mr Crowe: Nothing of the kind. deferred — and against the amendment. I do want to clear this, sir, in the in- Mr Callister: You went about it in the terests of ourselves, the Isle of Man - wrong way. the fallacy that because people have applied to a particular house for Mr Crowe: We haven't lent too much accommodation and that house happens at all. to be full for two particular weeks, there is no accommodation in the Isle of Man Mr Callister: Two million on the hous- for them. That is the impression that ing schemes. was given, and I would like to make it quite clear that there is ample accom- modation in the Isle of Man at present Mr Crowe: There might be an excep- to accommodate all the visitors who care tion, there might be an exception. The to come. money that has been left has done the Island good. The Island has surged Mr Crowe: Just a few words, Your forward since this money had been in- Excellency, in support of the resolution. jected into it. The Island today is a I suppose when ttie scheme was put for- viable proposition and it is going for- ward in 1962 the same arguments would ward. We shouldn't try to 'belittle it. be used as they have today, that we There are an awful Iot in this House, were made to offer 20 per cent. to any- in this Tynwald Court, who have been one with money to come here to build. saying things that are not helpful to the Now, as we have been told, no one has Isle of Man. It is making people lose come forward and done anything. Then, confidence, which is very foolish. Need- we have the hon. member for North lessly, very needlessly, because the Isle Douglas getting up on .many occasions of Man is going forward, and if we are and saying our accommodation in Dou- reasonable and go forward as well it glas is finished, pull it down and rebuild. should be an Island in the sun, there is Today, in the next breath, he says the no doubt about that. Two members of Island is in a mess. Where on earth the Finance Board have been against it. are we going in this Island? When we There is no doubt that if nothing is done read our weekend papers I don't know as far as building is concerned, over the what on earth people must think of us. years in future, Government will have to come forward and meet the costs. Mr MacDonald: They don't read them. That will come.

Mr Crowe: I am sure some do, and The Acting-Speaker: There will be a some are very worried at the statements Dumbell's Bank before we are that are being made, very foolish state- finished. ments. The Isle of Man is in no mess. The only mess we are in, if you would Mr Crowe: Dumbell's Bank — good call it a mess, is that we have not been heavens above. paying the rate, or rather offering the rate for the job. That is all. We have Mr Callister: It was not insolvent. to 'borrow money and we cannot get it because we are not offering enough in- terest. It is as simple as that. We are Mr Crowe: A couple of years ago what in no mess, but-- was the Island's debt? Practically nothing. We are talking about loans — Mr Callister: You have lent too much. they are repayable — they come back. Members: No. No. Mr MacDonald: Grants don't.

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1988—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 863

Mr Crowe:: We are not talking about here for 27 years — been interested in grants. tourism, and on every occasion, both in another authority and here, I have Mr MacDonald: We are. made my contribution to the best of my ability, to the tourist trade. But I have Mr Crowe: I am talking about the Is- been in a quandry this afternoon in a land's indebtedness — that is what we way, remembering what the hon. mem- are talking about at the moment. This ber, Mr McFee, has said, that there are is a different thing altogether. This certain people who are in smaller scheme admittedly has a grant involved, houses, other than big hotels, and the and it is better to give a grant and get larger boarding-houses on the prcenen- someone to do the job, or in the future ade, who are in need of assistance. In it is going to be Government that stands order to enable younger people to take the total cost. It is as simple as that over their businesses, and I would have and we have got to make up our minds. thought that some more consideration Let's do it by restrictions if you like. would have been given to these people The Finance Board will be in control. now, And naturally, being interested They can say next year in our budget in so many of my constituents who are we make so much allowance for this in smaller houses, and need assistance, work to continue. It is not a case of they will view with dismay the possi- people going mad and spend, spend, bility of them being overlooked, in spend — they can control it to one build- order that 40 per cent. of apparently ing or more as they think fit. But I thousands of pounds for an hotel should think, sir, we should approve this reso- be given by this Government, when lution to see is it possible to bring some- they will have to fill in all kinds of one to the Isle of Man who with this forms. Their affairs will be investigated grant will promote our tourist industry before they will be allowed to be loaned and be helpful to the Island in the long a few hundred pounds. And I think run. the hon. member, the chairman of the Local Government Board, has said no- body yet has been interested in being Mr Burke: I would like it to be made given 20 per cent, of the cost of the quite clear by the hon. member, Mr building of an hotel. What guarantee McFee, afbout his amendment. Is i•t to have we that anybody will come along postpone consideration of this matter to accept the 40 per cent.? until after the Budget — If that is the amendment— Mr lDevereau: Your Excellency, I will be very brief, There have been some The Governor: Under Standing Order very excellent arguments made this 17 — "It will be postponed until after afternoon as to the need of new board- the Budget, and it would therefore come ing-houses and hotels in the Isle of Man. on the agenda paper of the next meet- And I think that will be agreed by ing, after the Budget. everybody, both in the trade and out of it. We have, in Douglas, a considerable Mr Burke: Well, in that case, Your number of Victorian houses that are Excellency, if this is passed today it considerably out of date, and for a will be included in the estimates. number of years, as has (been said, there has been no building. So it will be, I Members: No, suppose, the opinion of this Court, that it is necessary to build new hotels in the Mr Burke: Well, Your Excellency, as Isle of Man, if we are to continue to a member of the Tourist Board, and I prosper. We cannot keep living on our have always — ever since I have lived past. We have to extend, and we have

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1968—Approved. 864 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 got to have new buildings and hotels. The Attorney-General: He neither What I think most members are dead gets a grant nor a loan, scared about in this Court is the ques- tion of the grant.• Now a grant of 20 Mr MacLeod: He doesn't get a grant per cent. already exists. It is proposed or a loan? now that this grant should be 40 ner The Attorney-Genera'.: No. cent. Now, on that 40 per cent., for the (building of new hotels, of all the Mr MacLeod: Well, what are we talk- money that is spent, it will be spent in ing about? It says on this taper 1 the Island. Local builders will come have— along, and there will be a considerable amount of money that will be circulated. The Attorney-General: We are not I contend that the grant that we give talking about what you are talking to the building of new hotels will only about (laughter)— be internal money that will circulate— We are not going to send it off the Is- Mr MacLeod: It says on this paper land. These hotels are going to ibe built that I've got, that you can build an by local men, and the money, the 40 hotel and you will get a 20 per cent. per cent. will not be entirely down the grant, if this goes through, 40 per cent. drain. I am supporting this resolution. Now you will get over and above that, I think it is sensible. I think we need a 40 per cent. loan — That's what the these hotels if we are going to get on in paper says-- the tourist business at all. I think this resolution is one of the most sensible The Attorney-General: You don't get ones in the report, and well worthy of a 20 per cent. loan— our support. Mr Nivison: It's a different scheme that— Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, there are one or two things which trouble me Mr MacLeod: It is the same scheme in this resolution. First of all, if we are that I have here. It says from 20 per short of cash how can we raise the grant cent, to 40 per cent., and I am almost from 20 to 40 per cent. 'Another thing sure you'll get a loan on top if it------that worries me very much is people borrowing money from. the Government Members: No. No. to buy property. Now, if you take the case of an hotel keeper who buys an Mr MacLeod: At about three per cent. hotel for about £60,000. He gets a grant Then if he doesn't get it, he'll sell the of 40 per cent.— hotel to somebody, and they will get a loan to buy it. (Laughter.) And they Members: No. No. will get a loan at about three per cent. There is a case in point. I know of an Mr MacLeod: He gets a grant of 40 hotel where it is up for sale for about per cent, and he borrows the rest of the £80,000. When the man bought it, he money from the Government at about put £10,000 down. Then he borrowed three per cent. interest-- the rest of it from the Government at three per cent. And he's offering it for Members: No. No. sale at about 80 per cent. down. And he's only making money out of the Deemster Kneale: It's a new hotel— Government. Wo0ld that be true or not? Mr MacLeod: All right then. Maybe he doesn't get it— Mr Irving: You can't borrow money

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1968—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 865 • from the Government to buy an we might have loaned or given away. hotel— It has nothing whatever to do with it. And what is so infuriating is that at Mr MacLeod: You can borrow money least one of the people who is saying from the Government to buy anything. that it has everything to do with it, (Laughter)-- knows perfectly well that it has nothing to do with it. Now, the Acting-Speaker, Mr Nivison: Can you get sheep? sir, I would refer 'him to paragraph four of the scheme, which says, "financial Mr MacLeod: As the man said today, assistance and allowances may be there are ways and means to an end. given." It does not say that they have to If there are ways and means, people be given. They may be given. You are will find out, and they will get them. not, in any way, as both the hon. mem- They are even borrowing money from ber, of the Council, and the hon. mem- the Government at three per cent, to ber for Glenfaba, Mr Anderson, feared, improve their hotels, and lending it back you are not, in any way, committing to the Government at six per cent. How yourself to ladelling out 40 per cent. can you work things like that? I think grants. You are enabling it. They can't the whole thing is ridiculous. If we do it, if you don't let them. want hotels, let the Government build them and put tenants in them. But Mr MacLeod:What's the use of bring- there is no sense or reason in this - ing that in, if they don't want 20 per The whole thing is ridiculous. cent now-- The Governor: Shall we let the At- Deemster Kneale: To encourage torney-General reply? people-- The Attorney-General: Your Excel- The Attorney-General: Because, if you lency, this has caused a storm around pass the appropriate Usury Order, we my head which I did not anticipate shall have the money and be able to frankly. However, it is nothing to what lend it. And it will be to the great ad- might happen, I suppose, in years to vantage of the Isle of Man if we have come— good hotel premises. Which brings me to what, I think it was the hon. mem- Mr MacLeod: Will you speak up. I ber for North Douglas, said, when he can't hear you-- was criticising the hon. member of the Council, Mr Nivison. Now, what Mr The Attorney-General: Well, sir, with Nivison said — and he was misunder- the greatest respect, I couldn't under- stood, to put it kindly, by the hon. mem- stand you (laughter)— ber for North Douglas. He said letters were being returned at this time of the Mr MacLeod: I always say, sir, you year. Now, the hon. member never said can always understand good English, that there was not accommodation whether you can speak it or not. available for those people. But, in fact, (Laughter.) is there accommodation of a similar character and standing as those people The Attorney-General: Your Excel- want ? The whole idea of this scheme is lency, I appreciate all the arguments to provide first-class hotel, or good that have been, or most of the argu- quality hotel accommodation. The hon. ments that have been made against this member of the Council Mr McFee, of resolution. What I do entirely refute course, referred to the scheme — that is that our need to amend the Usury we should first be concerning ourselves Act is anything to do with any money with the scheme to help young people.

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme; 1968—Approved. 866 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

He was answered by the hon. member said — one. The one matter that could for Ayre. Mr Radcliffe. And where we be dealt with by Tynwald has been could deal with the thing by resolution, dealt with by Tynwald. The other it has already been dealt with. The matters require legislation. That legis- other matters recommended in the lation, in one case, is drafted, and is at report require legislation. • the Home Office. The remaining piece of legislation is yet to be drafted. Rome Mr McFee: Just to clarify that point, was not built in a day. Your Excellency, is it possible that a person could come forward to buy a Mr McFee: Dealing with this point. 20- or 24-bedroomed• hotel in the Island sir ? and get assistance from the GOVern- ment ? The Attorney-General: Dealing with this point, yes. I was, horrified to hear The Attorney-General: No. the hon. member for Middle suggest that the Local Government Board could put Mr McFee: No, This is the point. This a brake on unwise expenditure by is the average type of small hotel. Let's exercising their power under the Town have it clear. and Country Planning Act. (Laughter). Coming from a very able and well- The Attorney-General: The hon. mem- respected magistrate, I thought it was ber for Peel, Mr MacDonald spoke of rather remarkable. The hon. member common sense— for North Douglas spoke of lashing out money to patch up old properties. It Mr McFee: Can I have that point didn't really seem to me to have a great clarified, Your Excellency ? deal of bearing on it. I entirely agree with the hon. member for Rushen, Mr The Attorney-General: I don't think Faragher, who deprecated all this wild so, Mr McFee. I don't know offhand. But talk about the Island being financially it has nothing whatever. to do with the finished. The hon. member for Ayre, Mr resolution. Radcliffe stated, I think. that it should Mr McFee: You are replying to the be left to this Court to decide where the development should take place—any debate, sir. development under this scheme. In fact, The Attorney-General: Yes, but it has it rests with the hon. member himself, nothing to do with the resolution at all. and his Board. It is the Local Govern- You complain that the matters con- ment Board which decides, in conjunc- tained in this report, which sought for tion with the Tourist Board, where these assistance for young people, have not properties are to go up. I am very glad been dealt with, and should have been that the hon. member of the Council dealt with before this. The one recom- Mr Nivison supports the scheme. Doubt- mendation in this report that could be less, he will be supporting the Usury dealt with by Tynwald. has been dealt Order in due course to provide the with. money (Laughter). The hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr MacLeod, spoke Mr McFee: No. interestingly on unrelated subjects (Laughter). Your Excellency, this is a The Attorney-General: It has. matter for the Court. I move this Order because it is an Order made by Your Mr McFee: Only one. Excellency. The protaganists on both sides have put their arguments forcibly The Attorney-General: That's what and well. I would not myself be pre-

Improvement of Tourist Accommodation Scheme, 1968—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 867 pared to support the amendment. Let us In the Keys— get on with it one way or the other. The safeguards are there. The safeguards are FOR: Messrs. Crowe, Kerruish, Rad- there. Why delay it ? You have heard cliffe, Miss Thorton -Duesbery, the arguments on both sides. You have Messrs Spittall, Quayle, Creer, Fara- heard them well and forcibly put. I gher, Simcocks, Crellin, Callister, trust you will pass this resolution, that Corkish, Irving, Burke, Devereau you will reject the amendment, if the and Sir Henry Sugden-16. majority of this hon. Court does not see fit to pass the resolution, for my part I AGAINST: Messrs. Anderson, Mac- shall rest quite content. Leod, Vereker, Moore, Kneale, Mac- Donald, Kelly-7. The Governor: I shall first put the amendment. That the motion should be In the Council—For: The First Deem- deferred until after the Budget. Those ster, the Attorney-General, Mr in favour of the amendment say "aye ". Nivison and Sir Ralph Stevenson- Those against say no ". 4. Against: Messrs Bolton, McFee and A division was called for and voting Nicholls-3. resulted as follows:— The Governor: Carried four to three in the Council; It is therefore carried. In the Keys: Item 9. The Attorney-General. FOR; Messrs. Callister, Moore, Cor- kish and Kelly-4. AGAINST: Messrs. Anderson, Mac- ELECTION RULES AMENDMENT Leod, Crowe, Kerruish. Radcliffe. ORDER, 1968 Miss Thornton-Duesbery, Messrs. Spittall, Quayle, Creer, Faragher, The Attorney-General: Your Excel- Simcocks, Crellin, Vereker, Irving, lency, I beg to move:— Burke, Kneale, Devereau, Mac- Donald and Sir Henry Sugden-19. That the Election Rules Amendment Order, 1968, made by His Excellency the Lieutenant- Governor on the 1st of February, 1968, under The Governor: Four in favour and 19 the provisions of Section 7 of the Represen- against. It fails in the Keys. tation of the People Act, be and the same is hereby approved. In the Council— Rule 8 of the Election Rules, contained FOR: Mr. McFee-1. in the fourth schedule of the Represen- tation of the People Acts, 1951, which AGAINST: The First Deemster, the sets out the places where nomination Attorney-General, Messrs Bolton, papers must be delivered in respect Nicholls, Nivison and Sir Ralph of election for the various constituen- Stevenson-6. cies. The rule provides that for the con- stituency of Michael nomination papers The Governor: It fails six to one in must be delivered to the Old Court the Council. It therefore fails. Now, the House in Michael. The Old Court House substantive motion. Those in favour say is jointly_ owned by Michael Parish " aye ". Those against say " no ". Commmissioners and the Michael Vil- lage District Commissioners—who now A division was called and voting wish to sell it. And the stipulation— -resulted as follows:— the statutory stipulation—that it is to

Election Rules Amendment Order, I9&8. 868 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

be used for the handing in of nomiba- PETITION OF ONCHAN VILLAGE ton papers, may well create a difficulty COMMISSIONERS RE EXTENSION to their being able to effect a satis- OF BOUNDARIES factory sale. Accordingly, His Excel- lency has, after consulting with his The Governor: Item 18. The Clerk of Executive Council alnd the Returning Tynwald to report. The report has been Officer for the constituency, decided circulated so I call on the hon. member to substitute for the Old Court House for Ayre, Mr Kerruish. the Old Parochial School, which is available for this use. This order is Mr R. E. S. Kerruish: Your Excellency, made by His Excellency under the at the last sitting of this hon. Court, a powers conferred upon him by section committee was appointed to consider an 7 of the Representation of the People application from the Corporation of Act, 1966, which enables him, with the Douglas for an extension of the borough approval of Tynwald, to vary the elec- boundaries. I beg to move, sir, that the tion rules. I beg to move the resolution, petition at present before the Court be Your Excellency. referred to that same committee. Sir Ralph Stevenson: I second, sir. Mr Bolton: I beg to second, and It was agreed. reserve my remarks.

The Governor: Is that agreed ? ROAD RACES ACT, 1951 It was agreed. The Governor: Well, I think we might take item 15 now, while we have got The Governor: Good. Now we will five (minutes. The chairman of the enter appearances of learned counsel. Highway Board, Mr P. W. S. Farrant: I appear, may it Mr Kerruish; Your Excellency, I beg please Your Excellency, on behalf of to move the resolution standing in my the petitioners, and I will simply say name:— that this is a petition for an extension That the powers conferred upon the Isle of of their boundaries. Notice by advertise- Man Highway and Transport Board under ment has been given of this petition, and the provisions of the Road Races Act, 1951, I produce my own affidavit, sworn on to declare by Order that any roads may be used for races, shall be exercisah:e by the the 19th of February, 1968. Notice was Board for a period• of one year from this put in two newspapers. I also produce date. the affidavit of Mr Richard Herbert This is the usual resolution which is Green and Mr Frank Oliver Littler brought forward every year to enable affirming the fact that notice was given the Board to close certain highways for to the Onchan Parish Commiccionerc, the purpose of motor racing. I beg to from whom no oljge*.iiihas_bepn rR move. — ''(n.Excellency; Miss Elizabeth Moffat Wilkie, who has submitted an Sir Henry Sugden: I beg to second. objection; Mrs Nellie Hampton, who did not reply; Mr and Mrs Boyce, who have It was agreed. put in an objection, and the Lonan The Governor: The Court will now Parish Commissioners, who haye_writ, adjourn for tea, and immediately after- ten to say that they agree_with_the wards we shall take item 18—petitions. bra yery er of I also produce the two newspapers in connection with The Court adjourned. the application.

Road Races Act, 1951.—Petition of Onchan Village Commissioners re actension of Boundaries. TYN1VALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 8.69

USURY ACT (RATE OF LAWFUL Mr Irving: 1 beg to second, Your INTEREST) ORDER. 1968 Excellency, and reserve my remarks. --STANDING ORDERS SUSPENDED Mr Nivison: I think, Your Excellency, The Governor: Now will hon. mem- that we are using haste. We are becom- bers please turn to Supplementary ing a bit hasty. And I will remind mem- Agenda No. 2. I call on the Attorney- General. bers of the speed with which we are acting. We are being asked now to sus- The Attorney-General: Your Excel- pend Standing Orders— lency, I beg to move, under Standing Order 27 (6), that permission be gran- Members: No — they are suspended. ted' for the remaining business appear- ing on this paper to be considered. Mr Nivison: Waiving Standing Orders, or whatever term you care to use in Mr Bolton: I beg to second, Your order that we might consider an Order Excellency. at 16-25 p.m. on the 20th February, 1968. I would remind you, sir, that the The Governor: Is that agreed ? programme today has been something of this kind. At 10-35 this morning we It was agreed. were asked to suspend Standing Orders in order that we might consider the Supplementary Agenda, which we might call Supplementary Agenda No. 1. Now, this was defeated on a technical knock- PAPERS LAID BEFORE out. But it was subsequently ruled that THE COURT the technical knock-out was—

The Governor: The Clerk of Tynwald. Mr Corkish: Below the belt. The Clerk: To lay before the Court— Mr Nivison: Well, not exactly below Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) the belt. Or not done with intent. But Order, 1968. the referee intervened, and subsequently it was over-ruled. At 11-35 a.m., after a complaint by a member of this Court that he had not received the Bill— USURY ACT (RATE OF LAWFUL. INTEREST) ORDER, 1968 Mr McFee: Who was he ? —APPROVED Mr Nivison: He received the Bill and The Governor: The chairman of the had it for the first time at 11-35 a.m. on Finance Board. the same 20th February, 1968. At•11-55 a.m., on the same date, we then resorted Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to to the other small agenda. There were move that in accordance with Standing so many of these papers lying around, Order 162 (3) that the provisions of they were like confetti at a wedding. I Standing Order 162 (1) be waived to noted that we received that one, and enable the following resolution to be we dealt with it at 11-55 a.m. At twelve considered: That in accordance with o'clock we received a notice that we Section 1 of the Usury Act, 1968, the were directed to attend a meeting, sum- Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) monsed by Your Excellency. in accord- Order, 1968, be and the same is hereby ance with Standing Order 7 (4) (a), to approved. a meeting of Tynwald on Tuesday next.

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order. 1968 —Standing Orders suspended. Papers laid before the Court.—Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968 —Approved. .870 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

And we attached the agenda for that in place of six per cent, which it is at sitting. And at 14-39 p.m. we received present, and which it has been for many the actual Usury Order. I want to com- years. The passing of the Act, two weeks pliment, most sincerely, the speed at ago, has led to a great deal of controv- which the bureaucrats have worked to- ersy, and to some rather foolish and un- day. And I sincerely hope, Your Ex- informed public statements. I read that cellency, that some day, when we have Councillor Bell — a one-time member of something that is of benefit to every the House of Keys — said it was the member of the Island, that we will act most irresponsible and reprehensible in an equally expeditious manner. We legislation ever prepetrated in a democ- will not be tied and strangled with the racy. But he went further, and said: usual red tape that we get. It is some- "The ultimate threat was that their thing on which you have made history. own allowances and expenses might not In the backroom boys. In fact, I think they must have been churned out in be paid. This is the sort of action that anticipation. I think—although it would has been taken to secure sealed lips be wrong for me to say so — but I and the strongest vote to rush it think they have been churned out in through." Now, this kind of stuff is anticipation. However, the man who quite untrue, It must be the product of doesn't know when he is beaten is a his on imagination. poor man. I will offer no further resist- ance. Having stated my strong protest Mr MacLeod: Why bother about it, to any further suspension of Standing then ? Orders, I would say and repeat in the most forceful way that I can, that I do Mr Bolton: I must refer to this, hope, Your Excellency, that, generally because I suggest that the public has speaking, we will not resort to this been very badly misled by many of the method. I think Standing Orders are public statements that have been made, particularly designed for the protection and it is necessary for them to be re- of the public — to avoid the public hav- butted. Now, Alderman Kaneen, who ing something thrust upon them that is should know better, has had quite a lot unpalatable or undesirable. We have no to say. Here is a quote: " There has been right to take the liberties of these people no apparent effort on the part of the away. I would say that in final protest. board to meet a situation which must Having said that and quoted the pro- have been building up for at least six gramme today, congratulations to all months." Now, until early October, we concerned for being so expeditious. I were advised by the Treasurer that there hope the venture is very successful. was no real difficulty, and Government However, I do not intend, subsequently, was borrowing money at 5i per cent. It to vote for the Order. , became necessary to raise the rate to the maximum possible, namely 6 per cent, The Governor: Is the Court agreeable and that was done on November 22nd, that Standing Order 162 be waived ? 1967. As soon as this action began to prove ineffective, the board reported to It was agreed. His Excellency, and to Executive Coun- cil, and recommended the introduction The Governor: Now, Mr Bolton, are of the Usury Bill. I can assure the Court you going to speak to the second part ? that we could not have acted more quickly. In any case, knowing the very Mr Bolton: Yes, sir. The Order which considerable opposition to any change in has been made today, under the Usury the Usury Act, we were bound to prove Act, 1968, fixes the maximum rate of our case by experience. Our thoughts interest chargeable at seven per cent, and theories would certainly not have

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 871 been acceptable to the Court. The Mr Corkish: It was stated in the Keys. worthy Alderman continued: " They have been borrowing on short term. And Mr Bolton: That was not stated for a Government to borrow on short officially by the Finance Board. term is the essence of bad finance. I am perfectly certain the investing public Mr Corkish: It was stated in the Keys. have lost faith in this Government. I would not put tuppence in it." Now, Mr Bolton: It may have been said by until December 1966, this gentleman somebody. But not by those who were was a member of the Finance Board, as putting the case. you all know. Borrowing policy has not, so far, been altered. One of our biggest Mr Corkish; It was stated in the Keys. difficulties — which was explained earlier — is that between January 1st, Mr Bolton: The only thing that is 1968, and April 1st, 1969, a total of a pathetic about it is Aldeiman Corkish little over three and a half millions, himself. (Laughter). Then he went on: which was borrowed three years ago, " The whole trouble is " — this is Alder- falls due for renewal. Unless the rate-of man Corkish, a member of the Court interest offered is more than 6 per cent, The whole trouble is—and I have been it is unlikely that half of it will be re- talking to one or two people who newed. Certainly, more than half the know " — I don't know quite who he has amount due for repayment on Janu- been talking to — that the Govern- ary 1st was, in fact, repaid. If all the ment Treasurer, who has gone away capital expenditure proposed in the now, was banking on short-term loans. Board's estimates is accepted, we shall He thought, with the Labour Party in require a further sum of more than power, the rate of interest would go three and a half million. Now, in- down. And instead of that it went up. vestment in G over n men t deben- People who had short-term loans with- tures over the past few weeks, in- drew them.- He further alleged that dicates that we shall be fortunate Government departments had loaned to receive a quarter of what we money at low rates of interest to hotel- need. There is no need to lose faith in iers and boarding-house keepers to im- this Government — if it does what is prove their properties. They had, then necessary. There is no lack of confidence invested their own money in Jersey at — but there is an unwillingness to invest high rates of interest. Ten per cent was in a security which offers so much less. mentioned. by way of return, than that which can be obtained elsewhere. I do believe that Mr Corkish: That was mentioned in we can do without that tuppence from the Keys. Alderman Kaneen. Before I leave Douglas Town Council, I must make Mr Bolton: I don't care what was reference to the extraordinary public mentioned in the Keys. Surely the hon. statements made by Alderman Corkish. member should know what is reasonable Let me quote: " It was even said there and what is not. What I suggest, sir, is would not be money to pay old-age that there is no wonder that Alderman pensioners. The tale we were told was Kaneen won't risk tuppence when we pathetic, and we fell for it, hook, line have such people as Alderman Corkish and sinker." distorting the position, and doing his best to destroy confidence in a Govern- Mr Corkish: That's correct. ment of which he is a part — albeit a small part. He is reported in the press Mr Bolton: That is not correct. to have said: " What we were told et

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968—Aipproved. 872 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 the private meeting of the Keys was Usury Act, preventing borrowing at very frustrating. It was not the present rates of interest commensurate with the Finance Board who were responsible for nature of the risk. I am sure that I the present muck-up. It was the previous have given the Court today — and a Finance Board." Now, I deny that any fortnight ago — sufficient evidence to member of the Finance Board tried at justify the Act. The Order now before any time to allocate or to ascribe blame you is a necessary and a natural con- to anyone. I am sure I did not. We know, sequence of the Act. The Finance Board and I think we said so quite clearly, that has given a great deal of thought to the we are the victims of circumstances that whole matter and has advised His are quite beyond our control. Canute Excellency and the Executive Council could not keep the tide out, and neither that the .maximum rate of interest can we. The position today is that we should immediately be raised to 7 per must have money. And we can get cent. I should perhaps also inform the money. But we have to pay what others Court that, with the consent of His are prepared to pay for it; otherwise we Excellency, the noard has made arrange- shall not get it. I cannot pass on without ments for S. G. Worburg and Company referring to Councillor Devereau, the Ltd., who are financial advisers, to help hon. member for West Douglas, who them. They are advisers to the Govern- spoke up and corrected some of the ment of Eire and to a very large num- foolish statements which had been made ber of large local authorities in the in the Douglas Town Council. And I do United Kingdom. I am sure that their want to take this opportunity of thank- help and advice will be of considerable ing him for his public support, (Hear, value to us in the immediate future in hear). Until a very few years ago, planning our future borrowings. (Hear, Tynwald met all Government expendi- hear). The Finance Board is now ture from revenue — either current offering to accept money for periods of revenue, or accumulations of past sur- up to six months. That is, seven days, plus revenue. For some years now, all one month, three months, six months. capital expenditure has been met by at 6 per cent per annum. And if this borrowing. And our present difficulty is Order is approved. they will offer to due entirely to that change of policy. It borrow for periods of up to three years was a change which was inevitable, at 7 per cent per annum. It is inadvis- with the combination of inflation, in- able to offer less at the present time. creased spending on development, and But the Board will take the earliest the introduction of many new schemes opportunity to reduce the rate of of assistance to industry, tourism and interest on new borrowings when the house building. I do suggest that had general financial climate improves. The there been no Usury Act some years ago, Court may rest assured that we shall Government would not have been called not pay more than is necessary. It is upon to provide so much finance in for that reason that we have for the supnorting development of industry in present decided that we shall not accept the Island. Prospective developers found money at 7 per cent for more than three it impossible to obtain risk capital when years. It will be our policy, subject to they were barred from paying more the advice we receive, to endeavour to than 6 per cent by way of interest. If borrow for longer periods. But I think they had been able to offer 7i or 8 per hon. members will realise that long- cent, many of them would have done so, term borrowing is unwise at a time And would have avoirled borrowing when interest rates are very high. If from the Government. Government at previous borrowings — at 5 per cent— that time could hardly refuse to help in had been for a longer term. part of our development when they were, by the difficulty might not have arisen. On the

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1967:I—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 873

other hand, it may be that it was not or three of them have gone over to the possible to obtain the money for longer other side — the hon. members for Ayre, periods when it was wanted. I am not Mr Radcliffe and Mr Kerruish, and Mr in a position to say anything at all on Creer. The hon. Speaker, of course—he that questio n, and I do not wish to voted for it last time. He is against it in appear to be critical of anything that the House of Keys, so he is still a mem- has been done in the past. Reference ber of the Legislature. And myself, and has been made to the possibility of using Mr Kneale. Those are the only ones that our reserves to meet our immediate I can see round about — and Mr Cor- needs. Reserves have been accumulated kish. I beg your pardon — those are the and they have been invested, to be held only members — the remaining -mem- in case of emergency. Now this is not bers — of the 15 who voted against the an emergency. I want to emphasise that passing of this Usury Act in 1964. And fact. World interest rates are very high, this will be a sad day for many people. and as we have adopted a policy of I don't care what anybody said, in my financing capital works by borrowing, experience in business over the last 40 we have no alternative but to pay the years, it is a God's blessing for people price which will prove attractive to the like me that we have the Usury Act to people who have money to lend. I trust, protect the people from the rackateers. sir, that the Court will now agree to I know one gentleman — he is dead approve the Order, and with a substan- now, of course — he lent money at 10 tial majority, sir, so that we are in no per cent. He did not get it back. The doubt at all that we have the support man went bankrupt in the north of the of the Court in dealing further with our Island. He could not go to the courts borrowing. with it, because it was 6 per cent — it was laid down in the old Acts. Now, this Mr Irving: I beg to second, and happens all over the place. People, when reserve my remarks. they are poor, have to stretch out and get what they can to help them out over The Acting-Speaker: Your Excel- a difficulty. And I say it is a God's lency, this is a sad day for me blessing that this Act was put on in the — and, indeed, I am going to vote first place, and it has been on the stat- against the Order. This is another utes in England for hundreds of years. effect of a piece of paper being put If you look back over the history of in front of the members at the last England you will see that these people minute. There is no determination date in the olden days were trucking with in the Order. Under the Standing Orders, money in the same way as we are doing of course, we can do nothing except have today. Now, the hon. member has put up it referred back — and it has not got a a good case. There is no doubt about it ghost of a chance of doing that. I com- — you have got to give him credit for plain, Your Excellency, that these things putting it before the House in a lucid — we should have some more informa- way — there is no question about that. tion beforehand, so that we can study But I am not satisfied that we are still them before we get here. The 7 per on the right tracks, and I am going to cent has been imposed today, and repeat what I have said over the last imposed on the people of the Isle of year or two about this business of Man. There is no doubt — you can't get lending money. We are more or less like away from it — I know it is going to pawnbrokers now. We are asking the pass, but on looking back over the people to lend us money to lend out to years, I look round this Court today and other people. and we are lending it out see about six or seven of the members in a pretty, Father Christmas way. and who were in the House in 1964 — two I want an assurance this afternoon from

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968—Approved. 874 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 the hon. member. It is going to pass, but stand anything about money at all, I think that a complete review should except taking it in the till and paying take place of all these gifts of loans, of me hills and saving it up. I mean, that grants, that we are giving out, and also is the sort of thing you have got, you lending money. I don't think it is fair have got to find somewhere to put it, if .o anybody who has got a lot of money you have got any. My banker, who is to take part in this handout under the dead now, the late Mr Corkill of Martins Tourist Improvement Act, where you Bank, he briefed me on this. I came to can get money free of interest for the the Court here with this idea and they first three years. I think that should be would not look a it. I wanted something done away with, it should—if you want like they have got, the irredeemable to encourage, give them a low rate of loan that England has got, the United interest, because you are going to pay Kingdom Government, they have always now. If it is 7 per cent you cannot afford got money to buy their battleships, aero- to lend it; to get the money to give it planes and pay for all these big services away when there is a disparity between that they have got — we have not at- nothing and 7 per cent—ic is illogical tempted to do, anything like that. 1 from any business point of view, and came then, some years ago, with the we are using to be in the same boat idea that we should have our own Sav- in three yea's' time when this thing ings Certificates in the Isle of Man, like comes up and peepie are going to say Ulster has got, which is part of the we give it -Alt. Now utless the bank rate United Kingdom Government, they have comes down, and I think it will in the got their own Savings Certificates. Oh, next few weeks, because at the present they pooh-poohed that. The next time time it is claimed by the monied people I came along with Premium Bonds for across the water that it is actually doing the Isle of Man, they pooh-poohed that. more harm than good at the present I got the impression, rightly or wrongly, time, and only last Thursday the "Daily that we did not want the money. I don't Mail,", in black type, predicted a fall know what it is. And then the hon. or 1 per cent. or per cent, anyway, in member this last few months, the hon. the bank rate. It did not happen—it member for Middle, Mr Spittall, he may happen this week, it may happen came along with a Savings Bank issue. next week. Now just recently in the Well, I know they are only small sav- financial papers there has been a com- ings, but then it all mounts up all this plete—I think the hon, member has got sort of stuff, and surely if we want the it for the 1971 issue—the Exchequer money we can help the small people and Bonds which are 6i, they are now offer- help to get a lot, and I think these are ing these figures at £97 10s., I think the sort of things that should lbe looked is is per £.100—is that the figure? at in a practical sort of way. And there Mr Anderson: 97.5. is one good thing come out of this after- noon so far. Two things really. One The Acting-Speaker: 97.5, and re- is this piece of paper whirl].) you have payable in 1973. Well, some of these got in front of you here, that they have Bonds have been out now for some got powers under the Housing Advances two or three years, these Exchequer Scheme I see, namely, (a) that all Bonds at 1971. Why can't the Isle mortgages granted on and after this of Man Government float a loan of date shall bear interest at the rate of five millions and see what happens? 6470: and (Ib) that notice has been now This is what I was told years ago. Mr given to all existing mortgagors, effec- Bolton was a member of this Court tive from the 1st June, 1968, increasing when I tried to get an irredeemable loan, the rate of interest — good, that is the but I am not a 'banker, I don't under- way to talk. You are doing something

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 875 good. He has also told the Court now cost of riving_ Money is like food; you that a firm of merchant bankers are now . have got to pay for it, pay for the money going to give you advice, Well, those and you have the money to pay for the are the sort of people you have got to food. So in one leading article you find get. Why did they not give advice three — do away with the Usury Act, and years ago? When all this difficulty— the next time you see — cut down the prices of the food, you are charging too Mr Irving: Ask Alderman Kaneen: much. Now the man that is selling the food has got to have the money to buy The Acting-Speaker: Never mind the food, so I can't see the consistency about Alderman Koneen, (Laughter.) about that. The Government steps in It is nothing to do with me. I with all these different ideas, insurance have not slandered the Isle of stamps — they put them up and who do Man Government at all. I said it they think is going to pay for all this? was an insult then because I was so Is there no other way? Unless we are shocked when I got into the House of getting the stuff for nothing, which we Keys to find that we had not even in don't, cr steal it, which you don't dare front of us — but just said — here, this steal or you get locked up, You have is it for that day. Well, I don't care got to nay for it with money. And if how brainy or even if he was a prodigy, you have got less money, therefore you I don't care who the person is, if they have got less to buy, you can't do it. can get their wits as quickly together And I think, Your Excellency, still, that to make a speech or to account for this Order this afternoon should have a things that you don't know nothing determination date on it — a determina- about, so suddenly. You want to be a tion date, rather, a date — because very ;mart sort of person to do it, and what is going to happen if in the next you see the other side of the coin month the bank rate come down, say you have the hon. member for Douglas, 1%— Mr Irving. He was prepared, he knew what he was going to say. I did not Deemster Kneale: Make another know what I was going to come back Order. one wit when I got up, but I was so flabbergasted with Mr Bolton: Not on your life!

Mr Bolton: It sounded as though you The Acting-Speaker: Not on your Life, didn't know what you were going to he says! One says one thing, another say. says another! Deemster Kneale: The Governor has The Acting-Speaker: Of course,, power to make another Order. that is one of your tricks, you see. This is the sort of thing that upsets The Acting-Speaker: Well, you have us, and naturally one gets annoyed. got power, yes, but he will be ad- and it is the presentation of vised by the Finance Board in that it that did the trick as far as I was sense. By Tynwald — we have got concerned, and I felt quite annoyed Tynwald, but the Finance Board are about the whole thing. because the pub- more or less the policy-makers now. lic now have got to pay and nay hand- Let's face up to it. they are the people somely, because the first thing it is going wo are going to tell you what you are to do as soon as it comes — you can't going to do. get away_ from it — the Government now are automatically contributing to- Mr Anderson: Don't be giving it to wards the cost of living, increasing the them like that.

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 196&—Approved. 876 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

The Acting-Speaker: Well, you have they are not, but I am telling you—the got to face up to it_ What is the use of hen, member for Ayre, MT Radcliffe, shutting your eyes to it? Too many told the Court this morning that the p..sol.:le walking about blind, you know Douglas Corporation are building £4.000 houses up on Anagh Coar up there— Mr Anderron: That is what we were thinking. Mr Canister: He did not tell you that you are subsidising the houses. The Acting-Speaker: I knew you would think it, but I am quite The Acting-Speaker: We are telling sincere about this, because the pub- you we have got to pay for the houses lic r...action outside, notwithstanding with the money. wnat Mr Bolton said or anybody else say, you have got to put the Mr Callister: You made a statement price of your things up to pay for that the Government were subsidis- this, and the rents would go up because ing the houses. They are not. naturally, they are going to say . . well people don't understand, the or- Mr Bolton: So they are. clIaary working-class person, I don't care who they are. Many of them . . . Mr Canister: They are not. I will pro- L.e men even don't understand the in- duce you the figures out of your own tF..:est rates, the women particularly books. . . have been talking to different people, they don't understand once 1 The Acting-Speaker: I want to per cent goes on, that the rent must go show you the simple arithmetic up automatically. There is no other facts and, that is the £1 16s. 2d.. . . way of getting it. I have not got them with me, but I will give you them, Mr Callister, Mr Bolton: No, no. all printed by the Corporation M Douglas, in their own offices, and The Acting-Speaker: Well, I don't they should be all circulated to all see . . I gave an elementary members of this Court to see for them- illustration in the House of Keys selves how ridiculous the position that of a £4,000 house which is the cur- we are getting into. We are giving out rent price for a new dwelling. Now this money to help the tenants who are you admit that. Now the interest going to live in this new estate at £1 and Sinking Fund on that £4,000, 1, 2, 16s. 2d. The hon. member has shown 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or whatever percentage, it there is going to be about 301s. or £2 will add 15s. a week to that rent. It a week loss on each house. The Dou- will. you can work it out, it is simple glas Corporation has then got to find arithmetic. You are a good scholar in this extra money, and in six months' that sense. You work that out. On a time all the people that have got money £5 000 house it is £1 a week. Now the will say: "Dear Sins, I would like to Goverrimelt at the present time are transfer my Bonds at 6 per cent. to subsidising these houses in a very, very the new issue of 7 per cent, bonds." substantial way— Right. Off we go. They then notify the tenants of all these houses that they Mr Callister: They are not ! have got to pay a bit more. Now the 15s, . . , the deficiency . . . the Gov- The Acting-Speaker: You can say that ernment then have either got to pay

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, .1968 877 the whole of that 15s. or the tenant and ,get money at 6:3 or 7 per cent. must pay it, or the tenant and the without any tax. To any government Government or the ratepayers and the from loyalty or any other thing . . Government. Somebody has got to I am going to look after the money pay the 15s. Now those are the element- that I have got to the best of my ary facts and that is what is going to ability and make as much more as I happen. It is as I said, a sad day for possibly can. I mean, that would be me that this thing . . . I think it is only commonsense, and anybody's way the fifth attempt really, if you count them all up over the years. when they of thinking, and I do not think for one set about trying to get this Usury Act moment that it will be possible for a out of the way. Somebody behind the government to have borrowed on short scenes said: right, we will have a go at tem and then to pay it back at the this and it has taken them all this day of redemption and then be able to time, and in 1968 they have more or call in that money again at the same less succeeded in getting the 7 per percentage if the people who are lend- cent. ing it are being offered a higher per- centage from some other person. Now Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, Mr we had this debate fn Tynwald, Kelly has been just pointing out to the think a week or a fortnight ago — I members of this Court how a house had a letter from a firm of merchant will cost an extra 15s. in rent. I don't bankers called Rothschilds and they think anybody in the Court would deny were offering me short-term money to that. But he does not tell you that it borrow at 7 per cent. That was one will only be houses that will be built month or three years. And I certainly on and after this date. It has got noth- — if I had any money to lend at that ing to do with the houses that have time, or spare capital, I would have been already built. given it to them, I would not have re- served it and said I am going to give it The Acting-Speaker: Oh yes it has to the Manx Government at 6 per cent. I can't see anybody in this Court, look- ing at this thing squarely, fairly and Mr MacLeod: It has got nothing to sensibly and thdia saying — I am going do with them whatsoever. It is on the to vote against it. There is no person new houses that will be built. If you in the world who will lend money at start building houses now this will low interest when he can get a high come in and will put extra money on interest. You would not have any the rent. Now what I would like to nrckley, I mean you would soon go know is, that if they want to borrow broke. The Manx Government has done money at this higher rate of interest that, they have borrowed money at high are we going to lend it at the same interest and lent it and they have very low rate of interest or are we ready gone broke. The British Gov- going to make the thing proportionate, ernmdiat have got themselves into such and people who want to borrow money a difficult situation that they had even will have to pay ? I mean, after all, to devalue the money to try and get there is no question about it that if themselves out of it, Now, Mr Kelly people are going to lend money they talks about Britain buying battleships look aroundto see who they will get and various other things and every- the best and biggest interest from, at thing else. He must not forget that least I would do that. Now I am not Britain tq an industrial nation, one of going to lend money to somebody at the greatest industrial nations in the 6 per cent, when I can go elsewhere world, and they export a tremendous

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968+---Approved. 878 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1988 amount of material that they manu- else. No one has been happy that the racture, and they also get a tremendous rate has got to be increased, but there amount of money in income tax and is just no alternative and the people surtax and death duties and various who are giving all the ballyhoo and otter ways and means. Here, we in have shouted have given no alternative the Isle of Man, we have only income whatever. We have got to be realistic, tax at 4s. in the £, which same of us we have got to face up to the respon- are very grateful indeed for, and that sibilities as government and to be is the reason we are staying here, and ready to meet our great commitments a great many more people have come in this way, The only thing that I hele to stay under those conditions. would have wished, Your Excellency, But if you start messing about with that something could have been done this that and the next thing those along these lines to offer an issue at 64 people who have come here with money Per cent, payable as this one is, bought will very soon depart and will take at £97 5s, Od. paid out in three years their money with them. I believe that or five years as the case may be at since we introduced so-called " come- 100 per cent. This would give a slight avers " Alto the Isle of Man that they capital appreciation, it would be a have brought a lot of money with them little bit more attractive, it would be and the income tax has increased by more attractive from an investor's something like a million pounds since point of view because there is that they did away with surtax. Now, I just quarter per cent. on which they think that each and every person in have not got to pay income tax, and it this hon. Court should vote in favour would mean that it would not attract of this resolution, and vote in favour everything exactly to the 7 per cent. of it now. We have spent a great deal in the way of mortgages and other of time talking about it and I hope and commitments that people have in trust that everybody will vote for it. various ways in finance throughout the Island. but I understand there are Mr Anderson: Your Excellency, I some technical difficulties as far as the don't think this should go completely Act is concerned, which may prevent unchallenged. The hon. Acting-Speaker this being done, and if that is so I has s-pokela and he has intimated that think the Act should be amended be- he is going to vote against this, and cause I think this is, to investors, a he knows jolly well when he does vote much more realistic proposition, but I against it, that this is going to go do say that the people who know the through anyway. And I have come to facts and are prepared to face up to the conclusion, Your Excellency, that the facts and vote against them in this cornling into this House, that a lot is done Court are only doing it to pander to for the public gallery ! They are play- the public who do not completely un- ilng to the gallery and they are play- derstand all the facts. ing safe; it is a game. He knows jolly well, as well as I do that this money Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, has been offered at 7i per cent. tax my hon. colleague the Acting-Speaker paid. I have got a copy of one of the did not include me in the— is(aies here that was on yesterday of seven million pounds only for one day. The Acting-Speaker: I beg your par- This is only one case, there are many don, sir. of these cases and the hon. member is being completely unrealistic, he has Sir Henry Sugden: league, shall we not put forward any alternative here say. There are two points I would like today, No one has enjoyed this exer- to refer to in the speech of the hon.

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 196&—ApAroved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 879 chairman of the Finance Board. The Mr Bolton: I will answer you. first is, and I think it is very import- ant indeed, that this is an Order which Mr E. Callister: The next point is can be varied if the circumstances that I had hoped that we need not go to change, and I think it is terribly im- 7 per cent. I feel that 6i per cent. would portant that everybody in this Island have attracted money on these terms. realises that, because quite frankly, sir, Also, I would like to feel that . . . the suggestion has been made that we have if I had been present a fortnight ago, I gone to a merchant bank. Are we going believe it was, when this was debated, to the right source ? Merchant bankers I would have pressed for it to be de- are not in the high class of banking ferred until after the forthcoming Eng- circles, and we have a Home Office and lish budget, because then things may we have a Finance Division in . . a change. Now I realise that perhaps I United Kingdom Finance Division and may be wrong, because here at least, there is such a thing as the Bank of we are giving an opportunity to keep England which is owned by the Gov- money in this Island, and I accept now ernment, Have we made the right ap- that the time has come when we have proach to the right people ? There is got to face the hard facts of world another suggestion that I would have financial standing in interest rates, and liked to have made, and that is, the at least we have got to put up our rate, issue of a loan as a discount. I think but I am indeed thankful, Your Excel- that this would have been most attrac- lency, that you have not gone to the tive, to issue a loan at 95 per cent. Im- maximum, now to 8 per cent. I think mediately the person thinks well, I that is a very good thing and I believe have got 5 per cent. already and I that we will be successful, I sincerely think this is one of those things that hope so, at 7 per cent. Now the other can . , . I feel that this has been important thing which we were told jumped ibto and that the rate is too was that we were obtaining the advice high at the moment and that further of a merchant bank, anyway,. financial consideration should be made as to advice, I well remember, Your Excel- what the rate of lending should be, and lency, not very long ago, in this hon. I would like the chairman of the Court, being almost laughed out of Finance Board to explain to me who is Court, when we were setting up the responsible for fixing this rate, atnd committee to go into the Common how it will be done in the future, and Purse arrangement, and I suggested if it will be altered, and if so by whom? then that on that we should have the advice of a real, outside financial ex- Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, I rise pert. I for one am delighted that the to support this Order. My only doubt, Finance Board has now seen fit to do and I hesitate really to express a doubt just that very thing. in view of the advice which has now been given is whether or not 7 per cent. Mr Callister: Your Excellency, I is adequate. I am concerned that there don't want to make a speech, but there should be a sufficiently high rate of are one or two points I would like to interest offered in order that the Gov- raise. I am rather confused as to what ernment should be able to complete exactly, or who exactly makes the de- its borrowing programmes. We have cision to issue at this rate of 7 per cent. had the example, sir, of last autumn And when it will be altered ? Is it when the British Chancellor of the you, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, Exchequor ih his reluctance to raise sir, who makes a decision to issue a the British bank rate, doing it as he loan at 7 per cent. did, half per cent. at a time, found

-Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968—Approved. 880. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 eventually he had to go a good deal great deal of money with the stroke of further than he might have to go had the pen on this occasion, and in another he been more firm in the first place. place I have asked for an assurance on But, sir, the real point of my rising to the question of future taxation. I don't speak is this. There seems to be a think the chairman of the Finance misapprehension in this Court that be- Board is prepared to give any assurance cause the maximum lawful rate of in- of this. Now I think that this detached terest has been raised to 7 per cent., approach is. wrong and there should be that it is necessary for the Govern- one co-ordinated finance policy presen- ment to borrow at that rate, and for ted to . the House, and where you have there to be another Order to enable got usury in question, then you have the Government to borrow at a lower got to relate it to your tax structure. rate. This is, of course, quite wrong. The flexibility of usury and the reason What you have done, sir, is to pre- for higher rates in England is completely scribe the maximum rate at which different to the reasons why we are lawful interest can be paid. Could I asking for it in the Isle of Man. It will refresh the memory of the Court by be appreciated that in England, and in the fact that although 6 per cent. has order to protect- sterling, the Bank of been the lawful rate of interest since England from time to time raises the 1625, the 1931 Act is the one with bank rate. This is looked upon as a which we are really concerned. Cer- regulator to maintain the value of tainly since 1931, sir, it has been law- sterling. The bank rate, presently, is ful' for interest to be charged at 6 per at 8 Der cent. This makes money dear— cent. It has heel] lawful for the Gov- banks charge 1 per cent over the bank eetiment to issue loans and to borrow rate for accommodation, and the effect, money at 6 per cent. Yet, sir, we all therefore, of raising the bank rate is know that in the last 20 years, 23 years, to make it uneconomic for customers to the Government has been able to bor- borrow for some expansion. Now that row money very successfully at 3i per is not the reason why we are doing it cent., 4 per cent., 5 per cent. In other in the Isle of Man. In the Isle of Man words, sir, the fact that it is lawful to the bank rate cannot exceed, at the charge 7 per cent, by no means suggests moment, 6 per cent-, owing to the fact that the Finance Board, most certainly that the Usury Act limits the rate of as at present constituted, will pay one interest to 6 per cent, and this, in my fraction of one per cent. more than is opinion, generally, is good for . the absolutely necessary to do the borrow- economy of the Isle of Man, which is ing necessary. I am quite satisfied, sir, so dependent on the visiting industry to that if we do approve this Order—I maintain its economy, because as far as hope the rate is high enough —that we I can disco.ver, this industry on which need not worry that it will be necessary the Island depends, largely lives on to amend it to enable the hon. mem- mortgages and overdrafts. If, however, ber, Mr Bolton and his colleagues to the interest is raised from 6 per cent, borrow more cheaply than that. It is all this would mean that the bank in the a matter of assessing what the market Isle of Man would charge the higher price is. rate, The Isle of Man Bank is proud this last year to announce that profits Mr McFee: Your Excellency. I will have increased, and the raising of the accept the position that the Finance bank rate would, of course. increase Board are finding themselves in some their profits considerably. A bank in difficulty, but there is no'doubt about England. however, is subject—and this it, that if this order goes through, that is the. point I am trying to make when somebody or some nersons )ake a I want to relate usury to taxation—a

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1068 881

bank in England, however, is subject to Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, there profits tax and corporation tax, and this are many ways of attracting money into has the effect of the banks when the a country, whether it is by the absence bank rate is increased of reducing the of surtax, the low rate of income tax or the non-existence of estate duties. profit of the bank, as the excess in Now the non-existence of estate duties profit caused by an increase of the bank some years ago was the means of attract- rate is taken by the EXchequer in in- ing into the Channel Islands so much creased taxation. Now this is the ques- money that they had to limit its entry, tion I have been asking and pressing and a special Bill was introduced so for—some promise from the Exchequer that a person could not bring into the in the Isle of Man, which I cannot country more than £10,000, and at that get. Now, the full question—and I have time the rates of interest were something in the order of a half of one Per cent. had this promise from the chairman— This was prior to the introduction of the that the review of the whole financial Absentee Landlord Act—an Act of the structure is now being gone into by the United Kingdom. whereby people who Finance Board, because I feel the mort- resided in the United Kingdom could) gage end debenture system operated by not nut their money in to the various the Government is totally unsatisfac- countries. whether it was the Isle of tory, and this is being looked into, but Man or the Channel Islands. and still I do believe, Your Excellency. I have get the benefit of the estate duties. Sel- said it before, that this is really a gift wyn Lloyd introduced this and it was to the affluent, they are going to get found that many monies that they had the best of both worlds, They will have in the Channel Islands or in the Isle of and enjoy no taxation in many direc- Man was subjected then to the estate tions, which is levied in other places; duties of the countries in which they they will have a low direct taxation; and were resident. This was an Act of the until this whole question is linked up Imperial Parliament. and some co-ordination and promise given, then I cannot support this order, Mr Bolton: Property, not money; This promise and assurance could be money was already liable. given today. Now this order—in fact the low income group generally- are the bor- Mr Nivison: Real estate, And so we rowers. Somebody said the law income found that large numbers of farms were earners will benefit as well, Generally bought up in places like the Isle of speaking it is the low income group Man and in planes like the Channel, are the borrowers and the affluent Islands. with, the result that they had are the lenders, and the tenants pay to investigate every purchaser of prop- the increase in ultimate rent, and unless erty for a period. The one reason I have this whole thing is gone into, I feel that risen, Your Excellency—I was somewhat thette is a moral obligation on the Court disturbed to learn that in the Isle of to go into the whole question and con- Man, although we have no estate duties. sider tax differentiatiotne and that it we attract or hope to attract people should be taken into account when the with a lot of money into the Isle of Man question of usury is being considered. through the medium of having no sur- and until I get that assurance I could tax. a low rate of income tax and no not support—although I do realise there estate duties. and I was horrified to is at the moment a great difficulty which find that a eerson could come here—a you are confronted with. But give me millionaire could come here and inves1 those assurances, then certainly I will every penny of that million in certain securities in the United Kingdom and

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 196—Approved. 882 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1868 completely avoid the estate duties, be- Mr Nivison: This does not—this is cause they were resident in the Isle of irrelevant, this is the sort of remarks Man; domiciled in the Isle of Man. that constantly gets put before mem- bers when they are speaking on a ques- Mr Bol on: What's wrong with that? tion. I want the public of the Isle of Man to know that many of the people Mr Nivison: What is wrong with it? who we are attracting to the Isle of I think something wants to be altered. Man, come because of our low rate of interest and because of the fact that Dzemster Kneale: A lot of nonsense. we have no estate duties; although they come here to live they are able to invest Mr Nivison; Well, it may be nonsense every penny of their money outside the in—it depends which glasses you look Isle of Man and will reap all the bene- through. They are taking the advantage fits of living here. of the Act in that they are coming to the Isle of Man to avoid Paying the Mr MacLeod: They have got to pay duties they would normally have to pay income fax in the Isle of Man. if they resided in Bournemouth or Blackpool, or wherever they should be. Mr Nivison: Now this is a fact, they would not be subject to estate duties. Deemsted Kneale: Perfectly legal. They would pay a lower rate of income tax than what they would normally have Mr Nivison: Oh, it is legal, yes, there ,to pay if they were resident in thei are many things that are legal, but I am United Kingdom. saying in my view that. this is not morally sound. Mr Spittall: But they do spend their Money here. Mr Bolton: Don't be silly, Mr Nivison: Yes, this may well be so, Mr Nivison: Well, I may be silly, but this may be the ethics of many mem- there are some people whose ethics, so bers. I recognise that— far as the use of money, are different to others. I would like to• remind the Mr Bolton: You have not given us hon. members—those of you who were your text yet. brought up in the Christian faith, and most of you were—that an act of usury Mr Nivison: Oh, I don't want to be was something that was a sin at some naughty with my hon. friend, Mr Bolton, time, but nowadays, of course, the man I do hate unpleasantnesses, but I could, who makes his money by any means, of course. I could hit him well below regardless of his scruples, is looked that belt of his which is getting bigger upon to be a little god. every day—(laughter)—but I will not, I will merely state— Mr Irving: Who fixed the bank rate? Mr Wilson, was it not? Mr Nicholls: Just kick him in the teeth. Mr Nivison: This is not relevant to what I am talking about. Mr Wilson Mr Nivison: —that this exercise— is no greater a relation of mine than he there are certain factors about this exer- is to the hon. member, Mr Irving- cise that is loaded on certain sides of Society. I think it is only right and Mr !lilacLeOrl; I am glad of that, Mr proper that some people should draw Nivison. (Laughter.) attention to these particular exercises.

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 068 883

and that is all I am doing, and I was little. These are the facts underlined horrified to know that many of the quite clearly for anyone that is on a, low people who we have been given to be- income. This is alright for those, that lieve come over here with tneir wealth, have, but it is not alright for those that ate corning over nere—,nis is a place have very little, and it is no good having Of convenience for them, a place of con- a goose that lays the golden eggs in this venience whereby they can avoid paying Island unless you are all going to get the legitimate taxes and duties wnich even a little scratch of the shell. These they would have to do it they lived in people are not even getting a scratch the place of their birth. I do not intend, of the shell. The geese that lay the to support the order; I am not going to, golden eggs that you read about in the speak or that because that would be. paper and the things that they will do purely tepeti.don and I wish to adhere if we introduce increased income tax, to Standing Orders in that direction, sir. or suggest, even, no estate duty, when you head all this tripe that is talked Mr Kneale: Your Excellency, in the about killing the goose that laid the debate in Tynwald in January, refer- golden egg, it is only those that are ring to the resolution of the getting benefit from this egg that are Gayer:anent Treasury, it was said worried. Everybody doesn't. When you that in six eventful years he had have got very little you do not get any set a standard which will certainly scratchings from it. test his successors, but apparently the testing time has arrived in the Mr MacLeod: What about your in- Finance Board. I am opposing this order, creased insurance business as I have opposed the alteration of usury ever since I came in here, and I see Mr Kneale: Oh, be quiet. The situa- no reason to alter, and I am not going tion is quite clear that by borrowing, to reneat all the remarks made by other the more you borrow the worse you members, that I agree with, but I am get, the worse state' you get into. These going to make reference to the remarks are the " facts of life when you are made by the hon. member for Glenfaba, running a home and thOse that can Mr Anderson, when he suggested that live on their income without borrow- the people who support this—who oppose ing are the ones that survive, the this order—are playing to the gallery ones that keep borrowing to get all and pandering to the public, who do not their things they go under, and it is know the facts. Well, the public, the more and more obvious that we have main body of the public, the average got to raise more money, currently, person, knows the facts only too well. each year, and the only way you can If they are buying their own house, do this is by some form of taxation, which a lot of them are, and have com- and this nonsense of keeping taxes low mitted themselves to heavy mortgage and building up your borrowing payments, the facts are quite clear to power is becoming more and more them. They will now be faced with pay- ridiculous. If you get a £100.000 in ing an extra I Os, or a pound a week general revenue this is the equivalent according to their premises, and per- of about two milliaa pounds borrowed haps more. When you are on a basic and when you pay for a one million salary of £15 to £20 or even £25, this Hound scheme, when we approve it on is a severe hardship, there is no doubt borrowing over twenty years, this about that. The facts as they see it. is scheme is going to cost probably about that this order helps those who have three million by the time we have got money to make more, but puts a worked out all the money you have heavier burden on those who have got paid out. The sooner we realise this

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) 0-rder, l90&—Approved. 884 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

the better and start curtailing the bor- Mr Crowe: There are many other rowing, and also on the schemes which commodities of a like nature and, just are to help people, put forward to help on the borrowing powers, sir, it has people to buy their houses or to im- been mentioned about the last Finance prove their properties or to put fire Board not borrowing properly. Now it escapes up and all this sort of thing, it was mentioned even since that was should be made quite clear that the spoken about, that we should borrow only people who are going to get any again on short-term. I suppose it is a help for these are those that need it, reasonable thing to do— to borrow on and not the ones that can afford to do a ehort term. if we were to have bor- it out of their own pockets. It is time rowed on a short term at 54 per cent. this situation was looked at and all the or 6 per cent. and then — you are talk- ing now of borrowing on a Short-term Acts we have got and the schemes that — in hope of the interest rates going we have got to help people they should dowt. be looked into very carefully. I am sure the Finance Board will do this Mr Canister; I was talking about and make sure that it is those that three years. need who get it and those that don't, don't. Mr Crowe: Yes, yes, we borrowed for three years, too. We are saying in the Mr Crowe; I am only going to say a hope it goes down. If we were to have few words, sir, It will be very short. borrowed for a long term and the in- And as was mentioned first of all it terest rates had gone down what would was a sad day for the Isle of Man— have happened to the Finance Board it has been a sad day for borrowers then ? It would have been kicked in ever since the rate of interest started the teeth. There is no doubt whatso- to go up. There is no doubt about that ever about that. and it always hits someone, but if you have something to sell the person that has something to sell tries to sell it in Mr McDonald: No one is blaming the best market. I think it is as simple you. as that. If you have labour to sell over the years the cost of that labour has Mr Crowe: We borrowed in the best gone up, rightly so; if a person has market we could, sir, and as for these been thrifty and he has saved money persons who are talking here today and he has money to sell he looks for about borrowing four or five millions the best rate of interest. Now the hon. and all this tripe, we can only borrow member for the Council, Mr McFee, what Tynwald allows us to borrow. mentioted what it cost—all this Uness we have approval from Tynwald trouble and he mentioned about what we cannot borrow. There is no doubt had happened to the bank a-ate in Eng- on many occasions Mr Carney could land. There is in England one example, have borrowed money and he could 3A per edit. War Loan, which you can have lent it and made money for the buy for about .49 Os. Od. now and you Isle of Man. We could have borrowed can get a return of 7 per cent. and pay big sums of money — he was not per- Manx Income Tax — that is one of the mitted to do this. Under our audit in reasons why the Manx Government the Isle of Man we can only borrow as cannot borrow money at 6 per cent. - Tynwald approves that borrowing. it is as, simple as that. The Acting-Speaker: It's about time Mr McFee: Very simple. the borrowing was stopped.

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, ,1958 885

Mr Crowe: It is as simple as that. All government. But I want these hon. right. I support the resolution, sir. members who I honestly believe, at least three of them, are seeking - Mr Irving: Your Excellency I had the - well the hon. member has called unfortunate task of 'handling the cheap political popularity— Usury Bill in' the House of Keys, and there is one thing 1 want to make clear. The Acting-Speaker: Rubbish that is. I have always been opposed to The Usury Act, because I think it hindered Mr Irving: I hope their consciences the development of the Isle of Man. are undisturbed. They know very well Now, sir, I ask hon. members in the indeed what happens to any govern- House of Keys to support this amend- ment to the Usury Act. I do so be- ment when its source of money dries up. If these hon. members are prepared cause I felt we had reached the stage to do this today, there is only one where action was absolutely impera- conclusion we cat come to, Your Ex- tive. I would like to say now that I do cellency. not intend to itis.e this as an excuse to abolish the 6 per cent. Usury Limit because 1 believe that certain hon: Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I feel members — I am speaking for myself that the Court is generally in support now— as my hon. chairman would say of the resolution that I have put for- — one third of the Finance Board. I ward. I would like to touch on one or believe that hon. members supported two points. The hon. Acting-Speaker that Bill whether they liked the Usury said something about wanting more Act or whether they didn't like the time. I really wonder what time he Usury Act it didn't matter, they sup- wants to realise the difficulty we are in ported it because it was necessary and and to realise that there is only one therefore, I hope, that before long we remedy, There is no doubt whatever will get back to the 6 per cent. Usury that we all appreciate that it is a sad Limit in this Island and then, then, I day when we haVe to pay more for any- might well try to abolish the Usury thing, and I do not deny it. All I say Act, but for the benefit of the hon. is that we 'cannot help it and we must member of the Council, Mr McFee, at face the facts. I certainly will give an least one third of the Finance Board I undertaking as was suggested by the can . speak for is not going to use this bon. member, and mentioned by Mr as a pretext for abolishing the Usury MacLeod, that the rates of ihterest on Act. I just want to say this final thing, government lendings will be examined sir. It is a very sad sight in this Court at once. when we see at eat four hon. mem- bers, and one of them, sir, sitting in the The Acting Speaker: Very good. chair of the speaker here today Mr Bolton: Housing adValices as you The Acting-Speaker: I was elected. remark, have already been dealt with.

Mr Irving: knowing the great respon Mr Irving: Before this Order. sibility before us and they are going to vote against it. Some day the story will Mr Belton: Before this Order.' Now be told. Some day the story can be told as .I have already said if it becomes in full, It can't now. We haven't any- cheaper to borrow we shall certainly thing to hide except, that certain things take advantage of it. We have no in- are said they might '.be distorted, and tention whatever of paying more than we want to keep confidence in the we need for our money, and the question

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968—Approved. 886 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, l968

of Savings Banks—the question of a lower point, then I believe that we Premium Bonds—and these matters are, could consider reducing the maximum or will be, looked at very carefully by rate of interest, but we should be silly the. .t'inance Board. INOw there is no to be coming with an order of this sort o. not whatever snat this increase will oefore the Courz every two or threq iiave us erect on prices. 1 can only hope monthsbobbing it up and down, to 6?, Leto. 1L Will not last long enough to have per cent .and back to 7 per cent,, down any permanent enect or to rio too much to 6k per cent., and the Finance Board uainage, but 1 would like to point out, wail nave no intention of suggesting tnac as Lae eon. m.enioer Ior itusnen, ivir inose exercises shouaa be undertaken, . iancocits, pointed out, that tne fixing now the hon. member for North Dou- ui a maximum rate does not really affect glas, ivir Cailister-1 would like to point toe issue or Government borrowing ex- out that His Excellency, the Governor, cept when it limits the rate that Gov- makes the orders. The Finance Board ernment can pay. As tne hon. member and the Treasurer will decide on the :saki, years ago the Government bor- issues, tne method of issuing, the length rowed at 3i per cent—we are still pay- of the issues and the rates of interes-, ing 3 per cent. on quite a lot of money and will advise His Excellency accord- and the Usury Act says 6 per cent., but ingly, and we anticipate that after we we didn't pay 1 per cent., we just paid have gone into this matter very, very per cent. The point is, really, that the carefully, that His Excellency will gene- order is not the regulator at all. The rally be prepared to accept our advice. regulator is the world interest rate, and He suggested that we jumped into some- by that we shall be regulated. Now the thing; we haven't jumped into anything. lion, member, Mr Anderson, suggested We are satisfied that is is absolutely ouying-offering at 97 or 96 and giving necessary at this moment to offer 7 per them a capital Profit. Now the point is cent, for the money we want. There is this, that if the interest offered, plus no question of jumping in; we have the premium that you were given, ad- been forced into this position. I would ded up in total to more than 7 per cent. like to refer to what was said by the per annum, then you would be in con- hon, member, Mr Simcocks. I quite agree travention of the Usury Act. We have with him that in fixing this maximum at thought of the idea of, say, offering it 7 per cent. it may be considered that at 98 and getting up to perhaps 6 per we are taking a chance and that we have cent, Those things are never far away not gone high enough. We know that a from our minds when we are consider- great deal of money can be obtained ng this problem, but we cannot in at 7 per. cent. I think we feel satisfied all exceed the rate of 7 per cent. as the that we shall retain the money that reward for lending money, but I can we are at present holding, and we shall assure the hon. member that we have not be called on to make, massive re- that in mind. The hon. member, Sir payments and we certainly hope to get Henry Sugden—I would like to point out sufficient to meet our needs until the that the order can undoubtedly be rate begins to subside. The 7 per cent. varied, but this order merely fixes a is going to make a very considerable maximum. We do not know in the pres- difference, and we hope that by the time ent conditions of the world how the in- we need a lot more money that we shall terest rate is going to vary from month be able to borrow it, perhaps, a little to month, and I do not want to see the cheaper, Now the hon. member of the maximum rate popping up and down Council, Mr McFee, as usual he says like a fiddler's elbow. I believe this— some people will make money. Well some that when we see that world interest people are making money every day and rates appear to have become static at some people are losing money every day.

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1988 .887 .

That has been going on from time im- aire that the hon, member refers to, then memorial. All these things so happen— he has got an income of £70,000 a year somebody makes a bit, somebody loses a coming in here taxable in the Isle of pit, and you cannot prevent it. Now tne Man, and he is going to pay £14,000 a reason for our action, if I can put it any year to the Isle of Man revenue. He is more clearly ,o him, is that money is worth having, no matter where he has for sate by auction. There are people vvuo are bidding more for it than we left his money, and bear in mind his are, anu if we want to get it we nave £70,000 is going to be available for wpc in increase our Olds. 1 am not pre- spending in the Isle of Man—on his paeci to give any assurance of any bi- house, on his garden, on his groceries iormation on Laxation in anticipation of and what have you. Adis .Lxcedency's Budget, and I am quite certain tnat we have no intention what- ever of making taxation punitive in the Deemster Kneale: Buildings, too. Isle of Man. I am quite sure that it is not good for the Island to increase the Mr Bolton: Isn't he worth having? We tax oeyond what is required, and we are talking here about people coming shall make sure that we do obtain what here — the hon. member himself was is required ,0 meet all our revenue ex- talking about visitors coming here and penditure and that we are not going spending £10 or something: This fellow to borrow for revenue expenditure. Now is worth Millions of them. the hon. member—somebody suggested that the low income groups are the bor- Mr Nivison: I would have liked to— rowers. The low income group quite frankly in my view and in my experi- Mr Bolton: And he objects because he ence are not the borrowers. The biggest says it is not ethical. I ask you; what borrowers are undoubtedly the very are we 'trying to do? Are we running a wealthy people, and the low income Government or a kindergarten? groups' borrowing is usually by over- buying on hire purchase. They have per- Mr Nivison: Don't•be silly. haps been persuaded to do more than they should by somebody' whose called Mr Bolton: It -is not silly. English on them. There, I agree, they may be money is far— over-borrowed. Now with regard to the hon. member of the Council, Mr Nivison Mr Nivison: Leave his money for the —he says a man can come here and he benefit of the estate. can leave all his money in the United Kingdom—perhaps a million—and it is Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, when I unethical. What is to stop a man living listen to these foolish suggestions that where he wants to live; and who is to are being made, and we are trying to say that he has got to bring his money run a Government. I despair. in before we let him in? Are we going to stand at the airport or on the pier Mr Callister: How many, oeople are and say: "Have you got your money earning £70,000 in.the United Kingdom? with you?" Not on your life. Mr Bolton: I didn't say he was earn- Deemster Kneale: That is what they ing it. The hon. member said he was a do. millionaire. • Mr Bolton: Now let us consider this Deemster Kneale: And to bring P....over. particular matter. If he is the million- here. •

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest}. Order, 1968—Approved. ..888 TYNWALD -COURT, FEBRUARY _20, 1968

Mr Bolton: And if he is .a millionaire Mr Bolton: Ah, it is all very well tell- at 7 oer cent, he has got £70,000. ing me that, ' • "

Mr Canister: How many people in the kir Kneale: We came with ideas in United Kingdom have got an income of 1950. £70,000? Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, last year •we had. two schools in and we were Mr Bolton: Well, of course, sir, the 'forced to bring a third in—from Mr unfortunate feature of all this is the - Kneale• And now he says—"Oh yes, we ignorance of some hon. members of the will do one at a time." Not him: he facts of life. wants their.' quicker than that, and we • know 'it. Mr Callister: You want to read the statistics. Mr Irving: How long would it take an increased taxation to have any effect? Mr Bolton: I read my statistics and I know -a lot more about it than. you Mr Bolton: It would take about three do. Now the hon. member, Mr Kneale. or four years before you got £116,000 Now Mr Kneale has been consistent in, out of surtax. ins opposition, He complains that 'the Poor people are going to suffer. The Mr Irving: Can we wait? only tning I would like to ask him is this: How would he do it himself? How would he -pay for Braddan School? Just Mr Bolton: You can't wait, - one—let him tell us how he is going to do it, and if he can do that, and he can do it succesfully, then the problem is Doem:ter Kneale: Why should we put -answered. it on these people?.

Mr Kneale: Very easily. £116,000—one Mr Bolton: In any case, just to give year's surtax. -an idea, the hon. member suggested that the working man is going to have to pay .S.:1 a week more because of this increase. • Mr Bolton: Well now, that's Braddan. Now if he is paying £1 a week more, Tell .me how. you are going to pay for that pound is £50, and that is one sixth Castle Rushen, The following year's of what he has been paying already so surtax? this poor working man is already pay- ing •£300 a year in interest. Can you Mr Kneale: Yes. believe it? Not on your life, It is all exaggeration, nothing but exaggeration, and the problem is here, we have got Mr Bolton:- So you are prepared to to meet it. I would like to thank the take one little school.. at a time year hon. member, Mr Crowe, for his sup- after year and not come to the Finance port, and I would like to assure him Board for three. that I haven't tried to blame any pre- vious Finance Board or any previous Mr Kneale: That is what we have had Trea.urer in any way at all. They have to do, but there -has been an accumula- had their difficulties and all I am anxious tion of a few years. to do is to get over our present diffi-

Usury Act (Rate of Lawful Interest) Order, 1968—Approved. TYN:WALD COURT, .FEBRUARY 20, 1968 889 culties and along with Mr Irving, the, Against:.. Messrs McFee and Nivison hon.. member for West Douglas.

Mr Burke: East Douglas. The Governor: Six in favour, two against in the . Council. The order is Mr Bolton: East Douglas, I will say therefore aPproved. I am not intending to use this difficulty to get rid of the Usury Act. I would like to see it go 'but it is there. It has been there a long time and as long • as we can use it sensibly I am quite pre:- • --MEMBERSHIP OF LOCAL pared to see it remain. I only trust, AUTHORITIES — POSITION OF sir, that in passing this Order the Court GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES will be satisfied that they have used it reasonably and sensibly, —COMMITTEE •APPOINTED The Governor: I think we have time The Governor: Those in favour of the to start item 10. I call on the hon. mem- Order being approved say aye, those ber for North Douglas. - against say no. Mr Canister: Your Excellency, I beg A division. was called for, and voting to rnoVe-' • - •' resulted as follows:— That, in view of the publiC concern regard- In the Keys— ' ing the alleged prssure exercised upon Mr S. Carine, Assistant Harbour Master at Ram- Sey. to withdraw his nomination for .election For: Miss Thornton-Duesbery, Messrs .to the Ramsey Commissioners,' a committee Anderson, MacLeod, Crowe, Ker- be appointed by Tynwald to conduct an enquiry into the circumstances leading up ruish, P. Radcliffe, Spittall, Quayle, to Mr Carine's decision 'to withdraw his Greer, Faragher, Simcocks, Crellin, nomination and report in due cOurse 'to this Vereker, Calister, Moore, Irving, Court. Burke, MacDonald and Sir Henry Sugden-19, I think the less r say on. this. occasion the better. I hope that this will be dealt with Against: Messrs Corkish, Kneale and in a sensible and reasonable' way, and Kelly'-3. impartially:I would like to make it clear that I -am. moving this -resolution as a The Acting-Speaker: The resolution is private member of the Legislature, and carried in the Keys, Your Excellency, also that I have not been prompted by 19 in favour and three against. Mr Carine to do so. Mr S. Carine was appointed Assistant Harbour Master at Ramsey by the Civil Service Commis- The Governor: Nineteen in favour and sion. At that time he was a member of three against in the Keys. the Ramsey Commissioners, and his term of office ended in November last. He In the Council— completed his nomination for re-election, which was accepted by the : returning For: The Lord Bishop, Deemster officer. Certain pressures appear to have Kneale, the Attorney-General,. been exercised which. compelled him to Messrs Bolton, Nicholls and Sir withdraw his miminatibil., The matter Ra:ph Stevenson-6. was brought to the:attention of t..e Civil

Membership of Local Authorities--,Position of Government Employees —Committee Appointed. 890 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

Service Commission, and in the absence table this resolution. Particularly, I am of regulations concerning the participa- surprised at the terms of the resolution. tion of civil servants in public life, the He mentions in the resolution itself the Commission had no jurisdiction but to alleged pressure exercised upon Mr S. Carine, assistant harbour master at prepare regulations for approval in due Ramsey, to withdraw his nomination for course. Although I have good reason to election to the Ramsey Commissioners. feel — personally, to feel very strongly Well now, I would like td read a letter, — about the freedom of individuals to Your Excellency, from Mr Carine to the participate in public life, I am sufficient- secretary of the Harbour Board. A letter ly experienced to recognise that there 'dated the 20th April, 1967. are two sides to every question, and at this stage I wish to. be quite. impartial. Mr SIM Cocks: Your Excellency, on a point of order. Has the hon. member got This matter was brought to my notice the permission of Mr Carine to read this by a Ramsey resident of high repute, letter ? The copyright is Mr Carine's. who assured me that many other Ram- sey residents felt as he did. I also had Mr Nicholls: It is a letter to the an interview with Mt Carine and found Harbour Board. him an exceptionally intelligent man. Not only are we fortunate in having Mr Simcocks: That doesn't mean that such a competent officer, but he has been it can neceSsarily be read in pUblic. an estimable town councillor. He' served for 15 years in the Royal Navy and re- Deemster Kneale: Of course it can tired as a lieutenant. Since then he has Mr Simcocks: The copyright of that been in the Merchant Navy and has been letter rests in the writer. an employee of the Harbour Board. In view of the information I have received', .Deernster Kneale: The board are and the publicity in the press, I feel it entitled to- disclose it to this Court, incumbent that this honourable Court should allay any suspicion of injustice. Mr Nicholls: Thank you, sir. This not only in the best interests of this letter is dated the 20th- honourable Court, but that of the public. Deemster Kneale: It is not marked I feel that any citizen who is prepared " private " or " confidential " ? to serve the public disinterestedly, and particularly on a local authority, is to Mr Nicholls: No, sir. It is dated the be commended. Therefore I ask you to 20th April, 1967. Now Mr Carine was appoiht a committee to investigate this, serving as a member of the Ramsey to clear the air and to rid any feeling of Commissioners for a period of ten injustice or pressure in this case, months from the 25th January to the 30th November. This letter, as I said, Mr Anderson: beg to second, and was written on the 20th April, when he made application for the post, and it reserve my remarks. reads as follows— it is addressed to the secretary of the Harbour Board: " Dear Mr Nicholls: Your Excellency, I am Sir I beg to inform you that I recently very surprised that the , hon.. member submitted an application for the position should have considered it necessary to of assistant harbourmaster in Ramsey,

Membership of Local Authorities—Position of Government Einployees. :–+Committee Appointed. TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968 891 which I addressed to the secretary of the conflict on some matter or other. Some Isle of Man Civil Service COmmission. difference of opinion — seeing that the No reference, VoweVer. was made to the harbour is within the precincts of the fact that I am a Member of the board town. How is this officer going to behave of Ramsey Town COmmissioners, having then ? He is going to try and serve two been elected to serve tthereon for the masters. Which one of the two is he period 25th January to the 30th Novem-.. going to serve ? He just can't do it. He ber, 1967." Now the next paragraph is is bound to come into conflict with one the most significant part or the letter: or the other. Moreover, we know per- " 1 am anxious that it be made known fectly well that having a harbourmaster that in the•- event of my application serving also as a member of the town receiving any subsequent consideration board the harbourmaster's office would by your Board of Tynwald that if I were undoubtedly become, in time,- a meeting appointed assistant harbourmaster place and a place for disgruntled rate- should not seek further re-election." payers to lobby their representative on Now, surely, that is plain enough, Your the Town Council and would give rise to Excellency. He was giving an undertak- a very great deal of unpleasantness and, ing there that if he was appointed to in fact, create an impossible position. It this post he would not seek re-election. has been stated in the press that an Now, he was elected—he was appointed official of the Harbour Board had by the Civil Service Commission on the threatened this man. That is completely 1st of September. Apparently he changes untrue. The official — the secretary, in his mind. After giving this assurance, he fact—was simply conveying the decision changes his mind, and sought re-election. and the views of the Board to this At least he sought nomination for re- gentleman who had applied for the election to the Commissioners, after position. There was no question of an giving the assurance that he would not official threatening him in any shape or seek re-election. Now, that doesn't speak. form. I think, sir, that to appoint a very highly for the gentleman who the commission to investigate this and hon. mover of the resolution praises as incidentally the hon. mover of the being public spirited, etc., etc.. and very resolution has mentioned this matter— highly thought of in Ramsey.. It doesn't I understand has been fully discussed place him very high in my estimation, by the Civil Service Commission and I to begin with. The Harbour Board gave have very good reason to believe that very, very careful consideration to this the hon. chairman of that Commission position and his appointment. It was —the mover of the resolution—is the realised and known full well by the only member of that body who is in members of the Harbour Board favour of this Action being taken. I will that the appointment of a vote against the resolution. harbourmaster who at the same time was serving as a member of the Town Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, I was Commissioners could give rise to very very much surprised why this man considerable embarrassment. There are should have withdrawn his nomination times when the Harbour Board and the for the Ramsey Commissioners in the Town Commissioners could come into first place, because I do not think there

Membership of Local Atithorities—Position of Government Employees —Committee Appointed. 892 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 1968

is anything written down in the law that quite willing to do it. I don't think any- civil servants shall not apply for any of thing should deprive him of the right to those kind of jobs. I know they cannot serve the public if he wants to. go into the House of Keys; but we have The Governor: Will you be long, or a situation here in the Keys — there is shall we adjourn until tomorrow ? half the Douglas Town Council sitting Sir Henry Sugden: Just as you direct, opposite here, ready to fly in when we sir. are at loggerheads with the Council about Douglas. I know three or four The Governor: Well, how long will you be ? members of the Forestry Board who are local Commissioners — there is nothing Sir Henry Sugden: I think five min- said about them. I`take it that if a man utes, if that. is willing to be a local commissioner, for The Governor: Well, let us adjourn all the great powers they have he is ur.t'l tomorrow morning.

-.41.35•111.04111wac.s.--

Membership of Local Authorities—Position of Government Employees —Committee Appointed.