REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Wednesday, June 20, 1979 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: The Governor (Sir John Paul, Acts 1963 to 1974 be and the same are G.C.M.G., O.B.E., M.C.). In the Council: hereby approved. The Lord Bishop (the Rt. Rev. Vernon It is interesting to note that it is exactly Nicholls), the Attorney-General (Mr. J. W. 24 years ago this month that a former Corrin), Sir John Bolton, O.B.E., Messrs. Chairman of the Highway Board, the late G. T. Crellin, R. E. S. Kerruish, G. V. H. Mr. F. H. Crowe, moved a similar resolu- Kneale, Mr. MacDonald, W. A. Moore, J. C. tion in respect of the 1955 Construction Nivison, C.B.E., A. H. Simcocks, M.B.E., with and Use Regulations. These were approved Mr. T. A. Bawden, Clerk of the Council. In that day "on the nod." I wonder how we the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon. Sir Charles will go on today? Hon. members will no Kerruish, O.B.E.), Messrs. R. J. G. Ander- doubt have read thousands of words almost son, W. K. Quirk, J. J. Radcliffe, P. Rad- regarding these proposed Construction and cliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, A. A. Catlin, R. L. Use Regulations, and if 1 can refer to them Watterson, J. R. Creer, E. G. Lowey, M. R. as "C and U's", it will be a lot easier and Walker, N. Q. Cringle, Mrs. E. C. Quayle, quicker. Anyway, in the last couple of Messrs. G. A. Quinney, M.B.E., E. M. Ward, weeks many words have been written and B.E.M., P. A. Craine, E. C. Irving, T. E. said regarding the proposals in regard to Kermeen, I.S.O., Dr. D. L. Moore, M.A., length and weights of vehicles. Some have Ph.D., Messrs. J. J. Christian, G. C. Swales, contained sensible comments, but I would with Mr. R. B. M. Quayle, Clerk of say that a lot of what has been written and Tynwald. said has been a nonsense. I have caused to be circulated to hon. members a short memo- randum which I hope has been of assistance APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE to you. As I say, from the advance publicity given to these regulations, members would The Governor: Hon. members, in addition 1:),; excused for thinking that they only to the hon. member for Garff, Dr. Mann, 1 related to increasing the present legal have apologies this morning for the absence lengths and weights of motor vehicles that of the hon. member for West Douglas, Mrs. can be used in the Island, and that approval Hanson. of the regulations will be a charter for juggernauts to roam freely round the Island. It is interesting that emotive word "jug- MOTOR VEHICLES (CONSTRUCTION gernaut". The description in the dictionary AND USE) REGULATIONS 1979 is "an idol of Krishna dragged yearly in — APPROVED. procession on a car under whose wheels devotees threw themselves." Or another The Governor: We resume our business definition is "a very large and very heavy with item number 24, and T call on the motor vehicle," and 1 hope that by the Chairman of the Highway and Transport time I have concluded members will be Board. satisfied that the lengths and weights pro- Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I posed in these regulations for a motor beg to move:— vehicle will not bring it into certainly the latter meaning. The construction of, and That the Motor Vehicles (Construction the use of, all motor vehicles on the Island's and Use) Regulations 1979 made by the Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board public roads are presently governed by the under the provisions of the Road Traffic Construction and Use Regulations 1955 as

Apologies for Absence. — Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1979— Approved. T870 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 amended in 1956 and 1958, and it is to the United Kingdom "C and U's" over interesting to note that our numbers of the past years since the introduction of our vehicles are increasing each year. This is not 1955 regulations, those amendments which goods vehicles, this is vehicles as a whole. related entirely to developments in the We have roughly 3,000 new vehicles a year vehicular field related to the safety aspect coming in. It is obvious that if we had no of the construction and use of motor Construction and Use Regulations a vehicle vehicles, such ones as 1 have itemised, are manufacturer could operate here, in Glen- highly desirable and essential, and that our faba or wherever, and construct vehicles legislation governing the construction and which would be far short of requirements, use of vehicles in the Island should be and that is the reason for the construction amended in a similar manner. It is desirable, part. The Act has been adopted in toto from hon. members, that you have the seat belts United Kingdom legislation and the current and mountings, and you are not allowed to ones, the 1955 regulations, which govern use cross ply and radials in various com- the size, and so on, of vehicles presently binations. Those are desirable. This, indeed, using the island were indeed an exact copy is what the regulations presently before the of United Kingdom regulations previous to hon. Court, in the main, will do, and I will that date. Developments, however, during be asking approval thereof. Undoubtedly, the the past decade have created a situation aspect of these consolidating regulations where vehicles are being manufactured and that has given rise to concern is the used on the roads in Great Britain, but increases proposed therein of the dimen- which the Board believed were not entirely sions and weights of goods vehicles, and it suitable for use in the Island, having regard is this aspect also that has caused the to various factors. In 1964 the Department Highway and Transport Board the most of Transport made regulations permitting soul-searching. United Kingdom legislation an increase in the size and carrying capacity provided larger vehicle dimensions than the of motor vehicles, but that uprating of Board considered desirable for use in the carrying capacity was made conditional Isle of Man, and it was not in favour of upon a number of factors, namely, specified this part of the United Kingdom regulations axle spacings, conditions as to tyres, and automatically being applied here, as has more especially, the introduction of a happened to date. and that is, as I say, with system of plating whereby manufacturers the 1955 regulations. At this point, hon. are compelled to fit to every vehicle a plate members, I would like to state categorically containing information as to the construc- that it is purely coincidence that the regula- tion of the vehicle and the maximum gross tions before the hon. Court today have come weight it is designed to carry. These 1964 to fruition at around the same time as the United Kingdom regulations and various introduction of the roll on/roll off service amendments since also made provision for into Douglas. The Highway Board were numerous safety developments and techno- talking about this many years ago, and I logical improvements in motor vehicle have papers here dated in the mid-1970's manufacture, such as, for example, the before roll on/roll off was anticipated at all strength of side doors and the latches and coming into the Island. In the early 1970's the hinges, protective steering mechanism, the Board had long and protracted con- seat belts and anchorage points, windscreen sultations with the haulage authorities and wipers, noise levels, and so on. Now, we the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company - found, or a previous Board found, that our because there was no talk of roll on/roll off regulations were obviously outmoded, and at that time— and some local authorities, the Board is faced with the problem of and talks commenced in the early 1970's. deciding whether the increased maximum One has only to glance through the regula- dimensions and laden weights prescribed by tions to appreciate that they are of such a the United Kingdom legislation of 1964 highly technical and complex nature that should automatically be -introduced here as the preparation and the drafting of them well as the various features I have men- was an extremely difficult task that could tioned such as the seat belts and so on. I not be done in five minutes. I must here would hope that hon. members would agree compliment the Board's staff on the com- with the view of the Board that of the pletion of this mammoth task because it is various amendments that have been made no mean achievement to look through.

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study and get these regulations ready for that there are already in use on the Island, the Board to approve them and come out. and have been for some years, both goods The final outcome of all the discussions, vehicles and public service vehicles in correspondence and deliberations, particu- excess of the current legal lengths for such larly on the crucial question of lengths and vehicles, but not in excess of the proposed weights, was to provide in the regulations lengths in the 1979 "C and U" regulations. for vehicle dimensions as follows, and 1 So there are vehicles in the Island which would like to deal with lengths first, and are outside the 1955 regulations but within indeed for ease of comparison with the what we arc proposing here today. Con- present sizes here and in the United King- sequently, I would say that the comments dom, I will quote imperial measurements. that have been made that this legislation At present in the Isle of Man a rigid vehicle will increase the size of vehicles in use daily may be 30 feet long. We propose that they throughout the Island is not a correct one. should be allowed to be 32 feet 9 inches The vehicles are already here. It would be long. In the United Kingdom since 1964 more accurate to say that, in essence, this they have been allowed to be up to 36 feet legislation will legalise what has become an in length. So our increase of 2 feet 9 inches, established use. Indeed, it would also be I would submit, is a reasonable one. true to say that to some degree the pro- Articulated vehicles at present in the Island, posals today on lengths have been tailored they are allowed to be up to 35 feet long. to meet a situation where events have over- Indeed, they can be 36 feet long if they taken the Highway Board. These events were registered before 1st January 1931. were the introduction of containerisation for Our proposed increase here is to bring them goods traffic by Ronagency in the first place, up to 42 feet 7 inches long—in the United followed closely by the Isle of Man Stearn. Kingdom they are allowable up to 49 feet Packet Company Limited, and I think we 2 inches long. An increase of 7 feet 7 agree that the introduction of containerisa- inches may seem a somewhat large increase, tion has had attendant benefits. In addition but the reason for this is apparent when I to the 20 feet "I.S.O." containers, 25 feet refer to the proposed weights. Length and and 30 feet flats were also being used for weight do go hand in hand, and in that, for the conveyance of goods. This modernisa- a vehicle to comply with the axle spreads tion of cargo handling meant that shippers laid down in the regulations, to enable it were receiving containers and flats loaded to carry a 32-ton load, which is not every directly at the factory, and others, indeed, load, of course, the vehicle must, of loaded directly from the Continent. Goods necessity, be able to carry a 32-ton load. such as steelwork, bricks, sugar, salt and The very fact that the axle stations are agricultural fertilisers are shipped by this such as they will have to be, ensures that method. Even a regular shipment of lager it has got to be round about 42 feet long. beer by bulk tank enclosed in a 20 feet Public service vehicles, that is your 'buses "I.S.O." frame .occurs, and you can see and coaches, at present the maximum length this one regularly travelling round Douglas in the 1955 regulations is 30 feet. We here. Those examples are a few that I have propose that this should go up to 37 feet quoted. So, therefore, consequently, vehicles 8 inches and in the United Kingdom the suitable for the carriage of these containers allowable length is 39 feet 3 inches. 'This and flats came into use on the Island. I is an increase of 7 feet 8 inches over the would venture to suggest that should these current length as prescribed in the 1955 lengths proposed today not be approved, regulations. it is no longer, and has not these vehicles in any case could not be put been for some years, possible to obtain off the road overnight, although in law we public service vehicles of the current legal should do so. They would have to be phased dimensions. Consequently, an increase has out over a period of time. There has been to be made there whether we like it or not. a bit of noise now, but there would be a The increase proposed is to what was lot more noise, I would suggest, were that formerly in force in the United Kingdom to come about. 11 would just like to mention in 1967, that is, 37 feet 8 inches, and it now the gross vehicle weights proposed by enables our operators to punchase second- the regulations for rigid and articulated hand replacement vehicles for the Island vehicles. It will surprise members, this, which are reasonably modern. It is a fact think — a rigid vehicle with four wheels at

Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1979—Approved. T872 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979

present can carry 14 tons. In the regulations additionally show the engine power and the the proposed weight is the same-14 tons. maximum axle and gross weights applicable With six wheels, 20 tons, and the proposed to the vehicle M Great Britain. This con- weight again is 20 tons. With more than six struction requirement is already on the wheels, 24 tons, and the proposed normal majority of goods vehicles in use in the load is 24 tons. The regulations do contain Island, and here I would digress to mention provision for a rigid vehicle to gross up to that legislation is in the pipeline to provide. a maximum of 30 tons, but this is totally as I said in answer to a question yesterday, dependent upon the axle spacings and the for the annual testing of goods vehicles to plated weight. The articulated vehicles, if a which will be applied a Board plating system. trailer has less than four wheels, at the which is an extension of the manufacturer's moment they can carry 20 tons. We propose plating system, and will, in essence, enable that they should carry 20 tons. If they have the Board itself to plate a vehicle's optional more than four wheels they could carry 24 weight after a prescribed time. To sum- tons at the moment and we propose to keep marise the situation, vehicles will only be that weight the same. Again, however, pro- able to operate at weights above what is vision in the regulations would enable an currently permissible, that is the 24-ton to articulated vehicle to gross up to 32 tons, the 30 ton or 32-ton maximum if the vehicle subject totally to axle spacings and plating. is constructed to the axle spacings stipulated, The permissible laden weights for rigid and and the manufacturer's plate with which it articulated vehicles— that is the maximum is fitted authorises its use at that weight. laden weight — are 6 tons and 8 tons more Al this point 1 would remind hon. members respectively than at present, I must state, that it is perfectly in order, and has been bur I would emphasise again that they are since 1955 by virtue of the present "C and totally dependent on some or all of the U's", for a vehicle/trailer combination, following factors: The classification of the provided the trailer is fitted with power- vehicle, the class, whether it is pre-1968 assisted brakes, to gross 32 tons in weight. or post-1968, the vehicle characteristics, that Through its regulatory powers the Board is, the brake efficiency of the vehicle, the can, if it wishes, of course, confine large number of axles, and, importantly, the dis- vehicles to certain roads only, and hon. tances between the axles, and the type of members may rest assured that the Board tyres, and so on, that it has on it. The will be keeping a close surveillance on regulations also stipulate maximum. per- traffic situations on the 'Island. It was mitted axle and wheel weights. For example, mentioned in passing that the Board's one-wheeled axles can carry 417 tons; single powers, of course, are outside the various two-wheeled axles, up to 9 tons; single four- towns and village districts, who administer wheeled axles, 11 tons, and so on. I think their own regulatory powers for traffic. I that is in the memorandum which I sent will explain now the reason for the Board round. I referred to vehicles grossing up to deciding on the maximum length of an 30 tons in weight for a rigid, and 32 tons articulated vehicle, which is 42 feet 7 for an articulated vehicle, subject to axle inches. As have already said, length and spacings and plating. The former is really weight do go hand in hand, and the Board self-explanatory. The greater the distance had represented to it — and this goes back between the axles, the more weight the over some years— that goods of the type vehicle is permitted to carry. Plating, which I have mentioned, such as sugar, salt, is a newer one on the Island here, refers fertilisers, and so on, were brought into the to the requirements in the United Kingdom Island in containers and in flats which that goods vehicles first used on or before weighed, when fully laden with a heavy 1st January 1968, and trailers over one ton commodity, 20 tons. You could have them unladen weight manufactured on or before laden, of course, with a light commodity 1st January 1968, must carry a manufac- such as crisps, and what-have-you, and they turer's plate showing, among other things, only weigh a fraction of that. But the the number of axles, the maximum axle heavily laden ones could be up to 20 tons, weights, the maximum gross weights. In the and when added to this were the weight of case of motor vehicles manufactured on or the container, which was 2 tons plus, and the after 1st October 1972, this plate must articulated vehicle itself which was 8 tons

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plus, you arrive then at a total of just over up, and quickly, a large proportion of these 30 tons and this has brought about the regulations are concerned with safety and fixing of the same ceiling for vehicles here other factors-in the construction of vehicles, as in the United Kingdom, which is 32 tons, and I do not think lion. members need have which, again I reiterate, is the existing limit any reservations about those particular anyway, the current existing limit, for a portions. As regards the lengths and weights vehicle/trailer combination. It is a fact that of vehicles, these regulations seek, really, many people on seeing an articulated vehicle to regularise the position in which we find loaded with a container assume that it is ourselves now, that is, the fact that due to 20 tons in the container, plus 2 tons actual cargo traffic developments in the past container, plus 8 tons for the vehicle, a decade, vehicles over 35 feet long are 32-ton load straight away. But it certainly carrying containers around the Island now. does not apply all the time because, as Public service vehicles of over 37 feet - say, the container could contain crisps, it and some of the national 'buses are 37 feet cculd contain cornflakes and the like, and 4 inches long — they are on most of the in all probability may only weigh round Island's roads every clay. It is presumed by about 12 tons. Mr. Lowey, the hon. member many that any large vehicle is a heavy for Rushen, is making faces, but you try vehicle and this, as 1 have tried to show, and get 20 tons of crisps into a container is not necessarily so. It is also presumed and you will do well! (Laughter.) For that the heavier vehicles do a dispropor- members to have an idea of the numbers of ticnate amount of damage to the roads. vehicles involved—and this is goods vehicles Again, this is not necessarily so, because on the Island—at 31st March 1978 there research has shown that a 32-ton vehicle, were 516 goods vehicles exceeding 3 tons properly loaded, can do less damage, and unladen weight licensed on the island by substantially less damage, than a 24-ton the Board, and of these 516 only 29 of them vehicle improperly loaded, that is, having were over 8 tons unladen weight. And there no regard to axle spacings and weight. is one vehicle on the Island which most having them improperly related. I would members will have seen, and it has been say that with the passing of these regulations on the Island for some time, and this is a the Highway Board would once again be in 16-ton to 17-ton low-loader for which there the driving seat, so if what I would term is no overall length limit. It is constructed a proper juggernaut came into the Island and can only be used for the conveyance we could clamp down on him and prosecute of indivisible loads of exceptional length, if need be. As it is at the moment, the and then it may be used only with special way things are, we have a fair number of authority and normally with police escort. vehicles outside the 1955 regulations. We Anyone who comes over the mountain road can hardly be successful with a prosecution, will meet it most days at the moment as 1 say, if a massive vehicle did come in. complete with a police escort. The move- beg to move, and if members have any ment of this type of load is clone under the queries I will endeavour to answer them in provisions of a Motor Vehicles (Authorisa- pure layman's language. tion of Special Types) Order which was Mr. Ward: I beg to second, Your Excel- approved by Tynwald Court in 1944, and lency, and reserve my remarks. this order is specifically geared to all those in excess of the legal weight. "Indivisible", Mr. Anderson: Just one point, Your by the way, means a load which cannot. Excellency. As far as T am concerned, I without undue expense or risk or damage, would not want to oppose the vast majority, but the fact of increasing this articulated be divided into two or more loads for vehicle from the present weight to 42.7 is conveyance on a road. I would say on a something that, really, even if they do exist, personal note that with these regulations as I think is a very serious step, and I really proposed today, I think the limits have been would not be terribly much in favour of about reached on the Island in regard to that. I do not think it is possible to amend lengths and weights of vehicles, and I would in Tynwald this but would it be possible, if take a lot of persuading, I think, as Chair- my view is shared by a number, rather than man of the Highway Board, to say that lose the whole lot, if it was withdrawn and they would have to be increased. To sum brought back with that amended? Would

Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1979—Approved. T874 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979

this be acceptable? I think this is shared by where there is a 40 miles an hour limit they a lot of members, that this particular length will drive through at 50. So I believe that 01 vehicle in an articulated form is not an if these regulations go through — and I hope acceptable thing. The rest of this I think they will not — then we will have yet bigger :; could accept, and if it were amended I vehicles again on the roads over and above believe could vote then for the whole lot. the loads that are permitted. You may say that is not so. You may say that if some- Mr. Watterson: Your Excellency, I was body tries to get off the boat — although going to pass a similar comment to the again I would suggest that on the boat was previous hon. member who has spoken. It the right time, and not off it— that they is rare in the time I have been in this hon. would be taken to task. Well, there is a Court for me to speak against technical leaflet, hon. members, a catalogue which propositions of various Boards because I was picked up from a local garage only the have always felt that the best judge of what day before yesterday, with a lorry which is should or should not be is the Board itself. way outside even the present limits, and On this I am afraid I am going to indeed there was an atempt to sell this break my rule because I am, going to speak vehicle to the actual person who had to oppose these regulations. Initially I picked the catalogue up! So, in other words. wondered if it was possible to have the they are for sale in the Isle of Man if regulations dealt with in sections so that we necessary even now. We are all aware of could deal and agree with a great deal of the great advantages of not breaking bulk useful stuff in it, and separate from that in shipping, and the use of containers to what I consider to be the controversial and, cut handling and, obviously, pilfering which in one or two instances, dangerous parts has happened so often in goods shipped to that are in it. But having gone through it and from the Island, but a limit on the with great care, to do that would be just vehicles does not necessarily prohibit the far too complicated. So I hope that I will use of containers. I do feel that the High- not be accused too viciously of trying to way Board's statements and the leaflets throw the baby out with the bath water. that they have issued are misleading. There The regulations which we have here before are comparisons between Imperial weight us, really, apart from the items such as and metric weight but you need to have a what you can do with a caravan when it degree in ciphernetics to understand some is on the roads, and a variety of other of them if you try to work it out, because things, the only controversial items boil it does get extremely complicated when you down to whether or not such vehicles and relate it to the axle loads, the loading of what loads may be allowed on Manx roads the vehicles, the width of it, the length. as they stand at the moment. This Island With all due respect to members of this has retained an attractiveness and a unique- Court, I would be surprised if anybody here ness in many ways for many years, and actually went through all these calculations believe that the present development of to see if what they said was right. It is, certain things within the Isle of Man is therefore, l would suggest, unwise to permit beginning to take away from it a lot of its vehicles of this -nature on the Manx roads attractiveness and make it very similar to at the moment because, after all, we have the United Kingdom in some respects, and got to look not just at the convenience but a lot of people who have come here to get at the damage that they can create. Let me away from the United Kingdom are begin- quote you from a Transport and Road ning to object to that now. One of the Research Laboratory Report, No. 628, with things I think a lot of new residents will this paragraph that refers to the relative object to is if they suddenly start to see damaging effect of axles, and I quote: heavier and bigger loads clanking around "Casual observation of the structural per- the Manx roads. It is all very well to say formance of the left-hand and overtaking that this legalises what has happened at the moment, which does seem to be a bit like lanes of dual carriageway roads shows that the tail wagging the dog, but we all know the heavier axle loads of commercial traffic that where there is a 30 miles an hour in the left-hand lane do more damage than limit most people drive through it at 40 often much greater numbers of private car miles an hour anyway if it is safe, and axles on the overtaking lane. Over the past

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40 years various attempts have been made Bible, Ecclesiastes, chapter 38, verse 20, to quantify the damaging effect of axles in which says: "Take no heaviness to heart, their turns of their loading, and the most drive it away." (Laughter.) comprehensive is an American oneway back in 1962, and this showed that the damaging effect of axles on both concrete and flexible Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I pavements ..." — and I would suggest that would first of all like to compliment my our pavements are not meant to be flexible, colleague, the new Chairman of the High- but probably will be if these loads get over way Board, on the way he has put his case them —"was approximately proportional to this morning, and actually the way up to the full power of the axle load." if you now he has carried out his duties as Chair- want a simple explanation of what that man of the Highway Board. There is one means, the Conservation Council supplied thing that is concerning me about this re- you all with a very interesting report solution. Basically, he has told us that at the recently which says quite simply that "The present moment we are working under 1955 damaging effect of axles proportionate to regulations, and yet we find that we are now the load means that if the axle load is —as the hon. member who has just resumed doubled the damaging effect is 16 times his seat has said — finding ourselves in the greater." We all know that the Isle of Man situation that although we have got regu- has a lot of Victorian services, gas mains, lations those regulations have been by- water mains, sewers, drains, a matter of passed by certain companies, one of them only inches below the surface where, if one being the 'bus company, and now we own was making a road for modern day traffic, them ourselves, the National Transport they would be feet below the surface. There- 'buses, I understand, do not comply with the fore, I would suggest that as far as this regulations. How is it that you have regu- plan is concerned there will be a minimal lations or have laws that people can break saving in cost in delivery charges in the and then you find yourselves, having broken short-term, and possibly a maximum inheri- the law, instead of punishing them for tance of damage in cost in the long-term. breaking the law, you are changing the regu- I do not see any reason why we should lations to make their impact illegal? What mimic the United Kingdom just because 1 am concerned about is, if we pass these something happens over there. I do realise regulations today . . . I accept that the that the Highway Board has put a great deal Highway Board have given a considerable of work into this, and there is a lot of value amount of thought to this, and realise the in this report. I would sincerely hope that practical situation that we are going to find it is rejected today and they can come back ourselves in. What I would like an assurance as early as possible in the new session with on from the Chairman is that if we do accept these regulations they will take very modifications and amendments to it which good care that they are implemented, not meet the unquestionable public desire that saying similar to what we have said up to heavy vehicles are not allowed on the Manx now, we have got regulations, people can roads. You may say, well, what are we bring in—just like the hon. member for going to use for vehicles if that is the case? Middle has just suggested — and then we Well, at the same time as that leaflet was find in about two years' time we are saying picked up, so were these, and if any member we have got these big vehicles now, we can would like to look through those at a later do nothing about them, we had better date you will find that there are plenty of change the regulations to fit them. This is a vehicles available and ready, almost off the crazy situation, surely? If we do accept the shelves, from the manuafacturers to suit recommendations, as I have every intention the needs that this report maintains are of doing, based on the points that the hon. necessary. You will also find that most Chairman made, I want him to give this manufacturers will make vehicles of speci- Court an assurance that they will certainly fied length if required. Hon. members, I be implemented and it will be made known will not go on any longer because I am to people in the United Kingdom that these sure you can see the gist of my thinking are the isle of Man regulations, and any- here, and T would just perhaps like in closing body who contravenes them will un- to quote — unusual for me — from the hesitatingly be prosecuted.

Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1979—Approved. T876 TYNWALD COURT, TUNE 20, 1979

Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, 1, too, like types of roads, and this we reckoned was my two friends here, feel that the only point more economical than buying huge 'buses of contention in this particular regulation to travel all over the Isle of Man. I think, is the reference to the weights and sizes. 1 like everybody else, I was rather struck by feel a little bit struck by one or two com- the changing attitude of the Corporation by ments which the Chairman has made in this allowing the heavy vehicles to pass over respect, and 1 can quite imagine that while their roads, but I can see their point. The he said that he can imagine the hon. mem- European Economic Community at the pre- ber from the south putting 20 tons of crisps sent time are offering huge "carrots" to into one container, I do not think he realised people, to other countries, to fix their roads, that although he could get this 20 tons of build their roads and maintain their roads crisps into a container, there is no place in to the standard of these huge vehicles. They the Isle of Man where you could deliver are even offering this outside the European 20 tons of crisps! (Laughter.) So, therefore, Economic Community. I can understand the you have got to have so many that you Corporation wanting to get a little bit of cannot take this container over all the roads this "carrot" but we are not going to get in the Isle of Man. I know in my particular any E.E.C. money to fix our roads, we have business, in this particular size of container got to do this ourselves, and this is one huge we get 14 tons of seed potatoes. That is what expense which we must think about when we get in a 20-ton container. We put it we bring these huge vehicles over. 1 will not across the water but it very rarely gets any go anything further. That is my point. I will further than Liverpool because we cannot vote for it if we can guarantee control, and get on to the places where we want to put not until. these products with the big container. That Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, there have is the situation as 1 see it in the Isle of Man. been suggestions made that we should ap- We did mention 'buses here too, that they prove these regulations if there is an under- are now over the legal size. 1 see it in this taking of good behaviour and moderation, way, that the 'buses in the Isle of Man are and I do not believe that that is quite confined to certain roads, and this is what enough. These regulations are a bit like a 1 would like to see as far as the heavy compound tablet containing many necessary vehicles are concerned. I would like to see vitamins but also unfortunately a smallpox control over these vehicles to a terminal virus. There is so much that is worthy of depot, and this is general in the United support, but if clause 9 remains in 1 Kingdom and, indeed, in the European , for one, cannot support these measures. We are Economic Community, where these heavy told it is only another couple of feet, only vehicles go into a terminal depot where they another few tons. Surely we have nibbled can be unloaded and off-loaded on to enough already at the quality of life on this smaller vehicles. This is something which I Island? The argument has been put forward think 1 could probably accept in the Isle of that we cannot expect other countries to Man. It seems to be leading in that respect manufacture vehicles specifically for the whether we like it or whether we do not. We have a Customs depot suggested and this Isle of Man. There is also another argument and that is that the Isle of Man should not might very well be a terminal point. We legislate specifically for the convenience of have Spring Valley where you have a large foreign manufacturers. In the memorandum complex of industry; this might very well circulated by the Highway and Transport be a terminal point. But 1 will not accept the Board, which the hon. Chairman has re- increase in length and width until we have ferred to, there occurs this phrase: "It will control over this. As far as 'buses are con- be obvious that present Manx law on this cerned, it did strike me here today, too, that subject is very much out of date." If that we do buy 'buses from across the water means that we have not passed certain second-hand, but there is no reason at all measures to enable bigger and heavier and why we should not get our own standard nastier vehicles to inconvenience the Manx of 'buses. It will cost more. I very well re- people, long may we remain out of date. 1 member being in Devon not so very long think there are many hon. members of this ago when they had their own particular type Court who get tired of the pressures brought of 'buses made for their own particular upon them to follow governments of other

Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations l979 Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T877

countries, and if we claim to be independent have changed. More than one member has let us behave as though we believed it. pointed to the great impact that has been There is something which tends to get made upon the transport of goods by pushed a bit to one side in technical argu- containerisation. Containerisation is here to ments about weights and measures, and it is stay. It has governed not only the policy of important to remember that the roads of this transport companies but of shipping com- island are constructed, not for the con- panies, and I think it has had a very great venience of vehicles, but for the convenience benefit upon not only consumers but manu- of people. I have no doubt whatsoever that facturers. In this particular regard I think the well-being of Manx residents will be ad- we have to he mindful of the fact that we versely affected by allowing bigger vehicles have a very important manufacturing sector to use our roads, their vibration damaging in the Isle of Man, and the import of certain foundations, their size on narrow bridges commodities and the export of certain and peaceful lanes endangering other road manufactured goods is a matter of great users, their noise and bulk being offensive importance to a sector that provides a con- to the vast majority of the Manx residents, siderable amount of employment. On the and I would urge this Court to oppose these initial points I think we have to be mindful regulations. of the fact that whilst these provisions pro- Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, I think vide for the general use of international perhaps it is a constitutional convention that standard-sized containers, 30 feet containers, previous Chairmen of Boards do not muscle this is 10 feet smaller than the 40 feet con- in on the comments made by a successor, tainers, the international standard container, but I felt there was one particular point in which is becoming more and more used in the remarks made by the hon. member for the United Kingdom. This is the important Ayre, Mr. Norman Radcliffe, on which I point. The Chairman has made it abundantly must comment. That is to say that I think it clear that they are intent upon keeping is worthy of note by the hon. members of the sizes in the isle of Man considerably this Court, and particularly by those who lower than is the case in the United King- are conservationists, such as the hon. mem- dom.. I think it, perhaps, is my responsibility ber who has just resumed his seat, and the to comment upon a query raised by the hon. many conservationists that are in this Court member for Avre, Mr. Percy Radcliffe, and without it, by noting one particular when he inquired about those vehicles which point made by the hon. Chairman, and it are at the present moment on the Island's was this. The reiteration of the policy of roads and in excess of the 1955 regulations. Tynwald and, I think, of previous Highway I will be quite open and concede that there Boards, when he said that they were intent was a time when the documents that had on controlling the sizes of vehicles that were to be filled in by applicants for registration coming into the Island. I think I am not of motor vehicles did not call for a state- misinterpreting the remarks made by the ment regarding the dimensions, the weight, hon. Chairman of the Highway Board when the length, the size of those vehicles con- he made it very clear that it was the cerned. But when the Board of the day got intention of his colleagues and himself to see to grips with this colossal task of bringing that we did not have in the Isle of Man the its Construction and Use Regulations into size of vehicles that are going round about force, the application forms had been the United Kingdom and many other Euro- changed, and now the Board are in a pean countries. This, I think, is. a- declaration position to vet and verify the size of the and reiteration of policy that is very worthy vehicles for which registration has been of note, and he has put before us today applied. I have every confidence that at the regulations which do regulate the size of present day, and particularly in the future, vehicles and bring them slightly larger than especially, with the approval —and I trust statutorily permitted at the present time, but they will be approved — of these regula- they are very much lower than is the case tions, the greatest 'caution will be exercised in the United Kingdom and other European by the Board in ensuring that nothing in countries. I think, having accepted that we excess of the statutory permissions are have to exercise some control over this, we exceeded. Furthermore, I would openly con- have to be mindful of the fact that things fess than one of the great arguments against

Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1979—Approved. T878 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 the enlargement of goods vehicles on the by the schedule of measurements in the Island is the damage they can cause to the memorandum we have had — it is clear that Island's roads. Well, now we have to concede although the levelling up in the Isle of Man quite openly and plainly that only a very has been relatively marginal, and whereas small mileage of the Island's 400 roads have the level of lengths in the United Kingdom been constructed in a manner suitable to is very much greater, I think it is fair to say, carry present-day traffic. But that goes. for and I am trying to be fair in this case, that almost every other country. The Board, I the axle weights, and 1 believe much of know, are concerned on the Surveyor- this problem is really governed by the General's side in reconstructing as many of criterion of axle weights, that axle weights the roads in the Island as they can to cope have not, in fact, been increased. On the with the requirements of the day, but let other hand, I think there is an appreciation, us be quite open and say this, most visitors indeed an admission by my hon. colleague coming to the Island comment very favour- here, the former member of the Highway ably upon the standard of the Island's roads, Board, that the damage could well have and although there may be certain small been caused by the use of minor roads by by-roads which have suffered by heavy vehicles of excessive weight. Here I am sure traffic, I think the Board exercise one further the hon. Chairman will not mind my saying power they possess and preclude, when that I consider the Highway Boards of pre- damage is seen to be getting done to those vious years, not just under his suzerainty, roads, heavy goods vehicles using them. The but under that perhaps of his predecessors. Board have this power and I think they have clearly failed in their duty to enforce exercise it in a responsible manner, but there the Construction and Use Regulations -- is no reason why the powers in that particu- regulations which, at the time, I considered lar direction could not be extended. I feel to have been excessive, and which, as we all that the present regulations are a natural know, were really made in order to accom- corollary to, I hope, the new vehicle testing modate 44-seater single-decker 'buses. I station. It will enable us, in conjunction with believe that the Board does stand con- these regulations, to exercise very careful demned for, may I use the expression. control over heavy goods vehicles that use dereliction of duty, and that the excuse that the Island's roads. I feel the Board should the original forms did not contain vital be commended on finalising a really colossal information is rather unconvincing con- task, and I sincerely hope that the Court sidering the amount of paper which comes will support the hon. Chairman and his from this Government organisation. It colleagues and approve these regulations. should not have been the work of more than a day or two to have re-designed forms Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, I have so that information truly necessary to long been of the opinion that one of the enable existing regulations to be enforced major causes of pollution in this Island has was made available. However, 1 hope my been the noise, smell and vibration caused hon. colleague here will not think that I am by goods vehicles obviously too heavy for being excessive in my comment. I am the roads upon which they run. I, therefore, making it because I believe it to be fair some weeks ago, came to the conclusion that comment. On the other hand there are, I it was my clear duty to advise the Court that believe, two points which we should con- these regulations should be thrown out sider. It is one thing for vehicles of a weight, peremptorily. However, on reading the adapted to deal with the fact that we cannot circularised notes from the Board recently, close our eyes to the fact that most of the before this hearing, I could not help ob- goods coming to the island will be in con- serving that whereas . . I must apologise tainers, and the design, shape and size of for having been late coming to this meeting and, therefore, having missed much of what containers are something out of our control. the hon. Chairman of the Board said, but it I think we should consider that there are does appear to me that when converting the some loads suitable for the transport of such good familiar feet and inches into the containers on other roads which, on the foreign and mysterious metres, the occasion admission of the former Chairman himself, has been taken to, as it were, level up. How- have been mis-used by heavy vehicles. I ever, having levelled up — and this is seen believe that these regulations should be

Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1979—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, 'JUNE 20, 1979 T879

reconsidered. I am not being destructive, Mr. Kerruish: They do contain special and I am sure my hon. friend, the Chair- dispensation for access. man of the Highway Board, will take what I am saying now as an honest attempt to be constructive and not destructive. I believe Mr. Simcocks: Special cases for individual that these regulations should be subject to access. But the basis is that the normal way an addition under which the roads on which of events should be that roads which are these vehicles will be permitted to operate not suitable should be forbidden to these should be clearly defined so that minor vehicles of this weight. I well remember roads, roads which were originally designed the Government had to spend long scores of for stiff-carts and horses and traps, which thousands of pounds in reconstructing the have little more than earth and pebbles as road from Cranstal to the Point of Ayre, a a foundation, that those roads should be - road originally designed, as I. say, for stiff- if I may lapse into German —"verboten" carts, which was used by lorries bringing to vehicles of this size. You will say that sand, gravel and concrete down to the south that is all very well in theory, but what of the Island, using roads which were quite about the man who has built a house, let unsuitable. I believe the hon. member, the us say, in Ronague, and who wishes to have previous Chairman of the Highway Board, his container of furniture delivered to him will agree with me that a vast sum of money in Ronague? I am quite certain that the road had to be spent because a totally unsuitable from Ballabeg to Ronague will not be one road was mis-used in that way. The further which anybody would suggest is suitable for point I wish to make is this. Damage to lorries and loads such as we are considering. roads, pollution by smell, and still greater I think that the regulations, therefore, pollution by lorries, is created not just by should contain a provision under which a weight but also by speed. It is known that a specific licence is granted for such justifiable lorry of a certain weight will inflict con- use of those roads. siderably greater damage on the foundation of a road if it travels at 40 m.p.h. than if Mr. Nivison: Furniture and crisps are the it travels at a slower speed. Therefore, same kind of weight. although we are, as it were, landed with these international requirements, 1 believe Mr. Simeocks: Well, I am thinking of that we can, whilst taking a practical and, this, crisps take rather a greater volume I believe, a positive view of these matters, almost than the air which some members mitigate the difficulties and do our best to tend to emanate! (Laughter.) I should say protect the people of the Island by estab- that we have got to face the fact that people lishing, firstly, tfiat vehicles of this size come from the United Kingdom to the Isle would be specifically limited to certain of Man, and — let us say Ronague for the roads which are at least capable of main- sake of a name-- have had their furniture taining this traffic without irreparable packed into containers of the international damage to their foundations and, secondly, size which have to be carried up. The that a very much more severe speed limit moment you open a container and start to be placed upon these vehicles, partly to re-distribute it into smaller containers, that avoid damage to roads, partly to avoid the is the time at which the security afforded by sort of pollution of noise and smell from containers is lost. Let us face it, a great deal which we suffer. Whether it would be in of the use of containers has been prompted, order for me to move that these regulations not merely by the fact that they require less be referred back to enable such amendments handling, but very much because they safe- as I have mentioned to be considered, I do guard people's goods from pilfering. So we not know. In the hope that it is acceptable have got to face the fact that it would be a I would like to move that, assuring my hon. great inconvenience to have to split the load, friend, Mr. Radcliffe, that I am doing this in even though the hon. member for Glenfaba, no sense of destruction, I am doing it in the Mr. Quirk, has made that suggestion. I hope that these regulations will then be believe that where these loads have to be more acceptable to the Court, and certainly taken on specific occasions, these regula- be a great deal less liable to cause dispute tions should contain provision for a specific and difficulty in the country. I move that licence. amendment.

Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1979—Approved. T880 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979

Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, 1 beg to those few words, but I must speak on two second the amendment. In doing so, may 1 or three points that the Chairman raised in first of all apologise to my hon. friend if he his speech. He did say that in his view the thought that I was trying to put him off by Island had reached its limits in weight and pulling faces. I can assure him it was an length with these new weights and lengths honest attempt at smiling! (Laughter.) Any- which are described in these regulations. I one who can smile before 11 o'clock on a would suggest to the hon. Chairman that hot June day I think will be forgiven. It was the people of the Isle of Man have already a smile of congratulation because he was said that the weights and lengths we have in doing so well in presenting a very difficult operation, or do not have in operation, case, and he always does extremely well. whatever the case may be, operating now are May I say at the outset, too, that there is the maximum that they wish to see. no other Board of Tynwald, I believe, I honestly believe that the attendant benefits have more confidence in than the Highway which flow from all this containerisation Board, that is the composition, the Chair- and moving larger loads from place to place man, the Vice-Chairman and the member of are mythical in many cases, and are not the Board. (Laughter.) There is no other real and tangible to the man-in-the-street. Board that 1 have more confidence in. So I I do not accept the premise of the hon. am sure he will listen to my pleas with a Chairman when he said that with public sympathetic ear. I believe the Chairman is vehicles, for example, because they are made a little bit like the family doctor, a friendly in England and we get our second-hand avuncular figure who, from time to time, 'buses from there that we would have to finds it necessary to order nasty tasting amend the regulations whether we liked it medicine for our own good. I am sure that or not. I honestly believe the hon. member if he had been speaking for another five for Peel has scotched that one. I think it is minutes he would have convinced most entirely up to this Court to decide the way members that what he was offering us was in which we conduct our affairs internally, not really nasty tasting medicine, but nectar. and 1 do believe this is germane to the way I want to say to hon. members here and now, of life of the Isle of Man. We are not a beware, it is not nectar, it is nasty tasting suburb of any great conurbation in the medicine, and for the very reasons that have United Kingdom. We are the Isle of Man been so cogently spelt out by many hon. looking at things from a Manx standpoint members here this morning. The regulations, and point of view of the way we want to 99 per cent. of which I find are sensible, are conduct ourselves. We spoke about constitu- reasonable, and to which I really want to tion and all the rest of it yesterday, and we lend my support, but on this length in par- will be on constitution later on today. But ticular, the weight secondary, do 1 find I honestly believe that the effects that this myself unable to support that particular will have on the man and woman in the recommendation. Unless he will take it back street, this resolution that is before us now and reconsider it 1 find that 1, too, will have is of more importance than that because to vote against all that is good. I want to this will affect their everyday life. I do not remind members that this legislation . . . think it is something you can take lightly. No-one is forcing us, no-one anywhere is Unless the Board is prepared to take it back forcing us to accept this today. It is safely and remove this offending clause 9, 1 am in our own hands. 1 believe when the afraid I will have to vote against it. Chairman spoke he did say that it was com- plex and technical. Really, you know, it is Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, 1 hope complex and technical, but there is a simple that the hon. mover of the resolution has found this debate extremely helpful to him. fact that must be faced by members. Do you This depends entirely on your own ruling as want larger lorries? Do you want to import to whether a motion to refer back a regu- the British way of life on to the Island? lation is in order, but 1 would suggest to That is the simple one, there is nothing the hon. member that he might like to con- technical or complex about that. And that I sider the other practice, which is the with- think, in essence, is what this is about. I do drawal of the regulations for further con- not want to go into the technical points. 1 sideration, not only with a view to the have said really all that I want to say in deletion of what is obviously objectionable.

Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1979 -Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T88I

but also possibly the addition of the very else. I think they have looked at all the pertinent suggestions made by the hon. facts available to them and they have come member of Council, Mr. Simcocks. 1 hope up with a solution which they must bring that this is put forward as a constructive before Tynwald. I suppose, out of the way of dealing with obviously a very dif- members of the Court today, there are not ficult matter for the Board. I have every many who, like me, live right smack on a sympathy with the Board. I would like to big highway, and it is a big highway, the see most of these regulations, particularly road from Peel to Ramsey. There are very dealing with safety, passed without any few who do. My gable is sitting right on the further ado, but on this other matter I do road and, in fact, outside the gable there is hope you will take notice of what hon. a constant hole in the road which was there members say, withdraw the regulations and long before a container came to the Isle bring them forward, if necessary, in July. of Man. But it does act very well as a weigh- Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I rise to bridge. There is no doubt about this. I have oppose the motion for deferment today - checked recently on the type of vehicle and I will speak purely to that—and I do so which causes most trouble. 1 find them to o;-: the grounds that the Highway Board have be, in the main, road tankers of both types, already discussed the possibility of closing milk and fuel oils, cement mixers, the big certain roads to vehicles once we have con- reaclymix cement mixers, and where you trol of them. I think this is, as far as 1 am have a container vehicle that is not properly concerned, the crux of the whole matter. I loaded on to the trailer then you have am satisfied in my own mind that with the trouble, that is probably the worst of the best will in the world people cannot turn the lot, where the trailer is fitted right on the clock back. Construction and Use Regula- back, or the container is fitted right on the tions were passed in 1955, we are currently back of the trailer with lots of space still at operating under them. The United Kingdom the front. The containers may be below the changed theirs in 1964, they are talking of proposed standard size but what is in it is changing them again now, and we do not what matters. Sitting on the end of the even, as a Board, want to come up to the trailer the whole weight is virtually on that 1964 regulations, that is the last thing as a back axle area, and this is bad loading. You Board we want to do. In fact, once we have also have the other thing that causes control of them, which I think is essential trouble, the very big low-loader carrying now, we have considered the very point heavy planks and equipment and we have which Mr. Simcocks was making, that there a lot of those in the Island. These are the should be possibly designated roads for things that cause the trouble, the 'buses them to roll along, if you like. That is one cause no trouble, the normal container point which the Highway Board will vehicles cause no trouble. Anyone who seriously consider, saying that you can only would like to watch this can sit with me at use specific roads once we have the control my gable or inside the back lounge and of them, that is the next important step, and feel this going past, and check which vehicle a very important step it is too. Already is going past. I believe also today that the within the regulations and within orders Highway Board are in a rather difficult there is permission, and permission can be position. It has been brought before the sought, to do exactly the second thing which notice of the Court that the great number he was seeking, and that was indivisible of hauliers in the Isle of Man are, in fact, loads for security reasons or other, to have breaking the law, and if we cease to bring specific permission to go to any particular this up-to-date to cover them, then I will place, but that would not be in the general expect action and I think the Court should course of events. For those reasons, I oppose expect action immediately to clear them off the deferment of this this morning. the roads, and you will put them out of Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, 1 like- business promptly because you must do it. wise oppose the deferment because I think You have now accepted the law as being w,; must rely on the Highway Board. There broken and they are no more entitled to ha:; been a lot of heart-searching about this. be without the law than anyone else. I do not think they want to damage the Island community any more than anyone A Member: What about the 'buses?

Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1979—Approved. [882 rYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979

Mr. MacDonald: The 'buses as well. You getting the stuff in to pass it on, and only are breaking the law. This Court has been the Consumer Council could check that one told quite clearly today that certain people through. Perhaps this big saving, very big in this island are breaking the law, and saving, in shipping costs was not passed on. people are fed up with being told the visitor I do not know, but it should be passed on. can break it but you cannot. Now that we These are the sort of savings that can be have been told these vehicles are breaking made, and still the weights, the lengths, the law, action has got to be taken against strictly controlled. To find that our National them unless this Court shows that it is 'buses ... 1 presume that National Transport willing to accept what the Highway Board carefully went into this, to find what 'buses are recommending and bring our standards they could get at what price because, let up to the lowest standards in Europe. I will us face it, it is losing money now, and the give you some facts. I may have mentioned more they have to have a '.bus specially this before. There is no doubt why con- made for the Isle of Man, the more money tainerisation came in. It came in because they will lose until in the end a lot of the in the Isle of Man we had ... I am not present road traffic systems we have got saying it occurred in the Isle of Man, but in the Island will disappear because you in exporting to the Isle of Man we had one cannot afford to run them right off the ct:' the highest pilfering rate areas in the road. 1. presume they went into this very 13ritsh isles. We had also in the Isle of carefully indeed. I do not think they are Man a very high damage rate of loose cargo all fools on National Transport. We put a being brought in. There is no doubt, any Chairman on there from this Court to person here who has been handling cargoes watch this,— (interruption) — well, a mem- will know that. We also have in the isle ber, a member on this particular Committee of Man a very high insurance area for to watch it, and I am quite convinced they shipping and, in fact, I know three firms did what they thought was right having in Peel that drew my attention to this, weighed up all the facts. So I feel it would where producers in England would no longer very wrong today to vote against what ship to the Isle of Man because of damage, the Highway Board - after all the heart- pilfering and losses that were occurring searching 1 know they have had — have coming in. This is one of the big reasons brought before the Court as the right why 'costs are so high in the Isle of Man. solution and the only solution. I think I If I could quote you, it is a rather remark- should also say that f look forward to the able difference. A container being brought Highway Board—and they were held up in. lift-on/lift-off. This is overcoming the by this Court for a long time— having a pilfering that could occur across, over- weighbridge depot. This is important for coming the problem of handling four times the Island because a lot of the heavy loading because if it is a lift-on/lift-off cargo, is not clone across and brought over. A lot remember, you have got to lift it from the of the heavy loading is done within the factory on to the vehicle to get it to the Island, and on my Board, on the Harbour dock where it is lifted off, put on to the Board, we have had this. We have a 10-ton boat, lifted off the boat again, put on to viaduct, we have found local vehicles, loaded another vehicle and taken to its final in the Island, 'crossing that 10-ton viaduct destination. Even allowing for that, if you with 15 ton aboard. So a lot of the damage can put that container straight on to wheels is done within the Island. We have also in England, and it is, as the Chairman has got to remember that there are, as I think said, of the lowest possible standard we can the former Chairman said, firms in the accept, and this must be enforced in future, Isle of Man shipping out, and these firms it must be enforced, then on one load shipping out want door-to-door delivery if which my Board did check, we went clown they are to compete in the world markets. and we checked on the valuation of goods I do not accept that we should have what in these two vehicles, £10,000 worth of are the real juggernauts, and what the goods coming to the isle of Man, lift-on/ people complain about in some of the village lift-off, price £900; on the wheels, £326. areas I have been to in England just off am not saying that should be passed on to the old A.1 where the juggernaut is a thing a consumer, that is up to the agent who is far bigger than this, towing behind another

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trailer of the same size. These are the the regulations and something would over- really hammering things, the really heavy take them and they would have to take it road-hammering vehicles. So I would recom- back to the drawing board. 1 think, quite mend to the Court not to accept the frankly, this has been a picture of the amendment, .but to support the Board who situation. Finally, as a Highway Board, we are responsible to Tynwald for ensuring the are living in the Isle of Man and we have laws in future will be strictly enforced. got to live in a realistic situation with regard to highway legislation and we are Mr. Ward: Your Excellency, I would not living, as most of us know, in a highly dare to pre-empt any of the replies or commercialised Isle of Man which has any of the undertakings, or any of the accepted containerisation and 1 think, and assurances, or any advice that my hon. it does not need me to reiterate it, these Chairman may take, but I find that I must Construction and Use Regulations were oppose very strongly the reference back. I very, very much in the forefront, as my am very glad today, for one thing, that the hon. Chairman said, before the days of Court has accepted the proposition in a roll-on/roll-off or before roll-on/roll-off was truly sensible way. 1 have been rather even thought of. I think, quite frankly, that delighted that nobody in the debate lent had roll-on/roll-off made its entrance last themselves to any of the emotive rubbish am quite sure that in the ordinary which has certainly preceded this debate year course of events these Construction and both in the press and at other meetings. Use Regulations would have come and gone Certainly I am delighted with the contri- just like a thousand other sort of regulations bution which the member of the Council, which the Highway Board has put through Mr. MacDonald, has made, a truly sensible this hon. Court. As I say, I am very glad contribution I believe and think he has that the emotive rubbish has been cut out put the finger on it that if we realise, and I and we have got down to basics. What I am personally delighted as a member of the would like to say is, while I: oppose very Highway Board anyway, that the majority strongly the reference back, 1 think the of the Court do recognise that the members present Highway Board is trying to make of the Highway Board arc not two-headed an effort now to get a real grip on the monsters that want to inflict their most situation. As I say, I would not like to terrible juggernauts, you know, on the pre-empt anything my Chairman would like people and the districts in the Isle of Man. to say but I think that they would have 1. think it has got to be accepted, Your our full support, certainly in the suitability Excellency, that the members of the High- and the definition of roads that these way Board, and we do take the point made vehicles would have to use, and whilst I say by our previous Chairman, that somewhere that 1 am rather charmed at the contribution along the line, and I think the rot started, by the hon. member of Council when he quite frankly, when we accepted con- says that we must make regulations and tainerisation, for whatever good or evil it have definitions of the roads which these is, but I think we accept the point that we people can use providing that we make a got behind in some way or something proviso that if Joe Bloggs from Manchester happened along the way and the regulations got out of hand, and I do know from my wants to build a house on the top of a mountain, that we have got to make sure own experience on the Highway Board, he gets his furniture there one way or from three or four years that I have been another. So we are already starting off with on the Highway Board, under the very able making provisos in the regulations which Chairmanship of the member for Council, we have not even got to. But I think it is that these Construction and Use Regula- quite right, I should have hoped the High- tions, which were a mystery to me, to be way Board in its present constitution will quite frank, were always hanging over our define roads on which this traffic will go heads and continual effort has been made and I hope the hon. Court will go along by, certainly our previous secretary and our with this. Give us a chance to get a grip present secretary, to try and get some sort of the situation and it is the control of the of grip on the situation, and, of course, situation which we are anxious to get now. during that period they would get so far in Fair enough, if things have gone a bit awry

Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1979—Approved. 1884 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 in the past, give us a.chance to get a grip was on about the attractiveness of the on it now so we can control the situation Island, but I would say that you are not and ! think you have got a Highway Board going to see any difference in heavy traffic that will at least make every attempt to anyway. What are here are here. We carry out their job, as long as we have got ensure that these "C and U's" will not your support in Tynwald. bring larger ones. What we are frying to do is to maintain what we have and keep it Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I. am not at that, and if the larger ones should come so sure that the designated road is the and we have these regulations passed today, answer to this problem, because I have seen we can prosecute and have some chance of all example of what can happen when winning a case. Even an inarticulate lawyer traffic gets diverted off a major road. I live such as myself could present a good enough near the bottom of Bray Hill, which is the case to get any haulier off who brought a main road from the north to the south of juggernaut in. You would have no chance the Island, and one small section of that at all of making a case stick. Now he road was closed for repairs. That was the referred to the conservationists' leaflet section between Cronkbourne Road and which I know hon. members have had, and Brunswick Road. As a result, all the traffic I would just like to say to hon. members, had to be diverted up Cronkbourne, Road, there are just two items I will pick out - a road that was only meant for very what was said and what was not said. "(d) average traffic and it was quite adequate There is risk of architectural damage to for the traffic that went on. In a very short buildings". T have the road research hook time that road was ruined and the hon. here too, and if T can just read it through, member for West Douglas and myself had it will not take a minute. "There is risk to do a lot of agitating to the Town Council of architectural damage to buildings when and they had to completely re-lay the road, the ground vibrations reach the level of 5 and this is what can happen when making a millimetres a second. Measurements indicate certain adjustment to the normal traffic as the ground vibrations in this order occur was suggested by the hon. member for adjacent to roads where there are road Council, Mr. Simcocks, sending the van up surface irregularities of about 20 millimetres t) Ronague on the special permit. The ii size." The next sentence — "In the damage could be done to that road by the normal dwelling house, constructed and one trip of the heavy vehicle and my own maintained to a reasonable standard, there feeling is that the only way to control this would be very little risk of damage." Now is to control the weight and the size of the take another one, (g): "The actual contri- vehicle. 1 look at some of the vehicles that bution of vibrations to building damage are wandering round the town of Douglas cannot be readily assessed." Now then, the at the moment. I go clown Drumgold Street following part of that sentence is: "as there most clays and it is a disgrace that vehicles are many natural causes of damage, for of this size are allowed in the towns. example, thermal expansion and contrac- tion. settlement of foundations. Tn the case Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, this of traffic, the most severe vibrations particular item on the Agenda today has generated are unlikely to cause direct failure sparked off a very good and able discussion and it is 'considered that their action is, and there are some points hon. members therefore, that of a triggering action but have made which I must certainly reply to. this may equally arise from a door slam- would say first of all that I must oppose ming." Now, hon. members, T have here any deferment of these Construction and the pieces underlined in red, the parts which Use Regulations because six months will not were not said in the leaflet, and T must say help. The very circumstances and facts of that one must read the whole story to things as they are in the .Island will only appreciate this. My hon. colleague was ensure that the Highway Board will come back with exactly the same thing. There is commenting upon the 'buses breaking the no other way round it, we would have no law. Well, this is fact but that is past history. option. Now, if I may deal with one or two We must accept it but we must see that items that hon. members have made. The our regulations are implemented' 'here today hon. member for Middle, Mr. Watterson, and I can certainly assure the hon. member

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that if they are implemented we will come constructed now are constructed to the down on vehicles which are outside those standards required and mentioned again in "C and U's". The hon. member for Glen- the conservation leaflet. The Board have faba, Mr. Quirk, said, confine these vehicles attached prime importance to this. Any to certain roads. Certainly we can do that. reconstructions done on major roads are We have the regulatory powers to do that. constructed to a standard which will ensure Now, he did mention about smaller 'buses that any vehicles up to our permitted but the way the 'bus company operates at weights will do no harm to them. We would the moment, buying second-hand vehicles, be seeking, sir, I have just made a note here, the small 'buses, the 30 feet 'buses are a fresh start with these regulations and I from, what, the days of Noah almost and would point out that he mentioned con- where they would buy a second-hand 30 tainers. Containers are not thrown over here, feet 'bus I do not know. They would have hon. members. Manx carriers are involved to travel world-wide. The only answer then ie the carriage from this end and inquiries would be to buy new vehicles and as the must be made before hand, so therefore the hon. member for Council, Mr. MacDonald, Manx carrier knows that regulations are in said, that would be loss on loss. Now, Dr. head in the isle of Man and he can tell the Moore, these vehicles are here and as I shippers, it is no use you sending over a reiterate again, the Board have regulatory 40 feet container, it will have to be 20 feet, powers. The laws are out of date and we stop. want them to be updated so that we can do something and, as l said, the Highway Mr. Lowey: It has happened in the past. Board will be then in control and able to Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Perhaps in the past, prosecute with some chance of success. He but then, as I say, these containers, we do quoted the narrow bridges and peaceful not just get them and throw them over and lanes and all that which are going to be somebody catches them here. The contacts damaged. Now I have here a report on the are made long before the container arrives Lhen bridge which, as you all know, is a and I would say it is up to the Board and narrow, humped-back bridge in the north the people who will enforce these regula- of the Island. The sentence which I was tions to ensure that if one comes in he is interested in from a memorandum is this: stamped on, and no more would come then, "The bridge is found to be structurally for sure. Mr. Lowey, the hon. member for adequate for use by vehicles and no weight Rushen, he was on about deferment. I limit is required." Now that was the Lhen cannot accept it, as I said, for the reason bridge, one of the smallest and narrowest that things will not change. We will surely, that we have. The hon. member for Council, I imagine, come back with exactly the Mr. Kerruish, I thank him for his support. same "C and U" Regulations as we have We are intent on controlling vehicles and, here now. It is good to hear that he has a3 he rightly pointed out, our top limits some confidence in the Board, although one here are much lower than in the United would wonder at times. I have tried to show, Kingdom and it is certainly intended that hon. members, and the hon. member for they should ever remain so. As I said in Rushen in particular, that there would be my opening remarks, I think vehicles are nothing new in vehicles which we see on the as big now as they ever should be and in roads. Again I must reiterate this. Vehicles fact I would just, as a point of interest, are here which fall within the length we are throw in that the Board have just had an talking about. They are 13 metres long. We inquiry about carrying 40 feet containers see them every day now. (Interruption.) The into the Island, and we have told them hon. member asked why. Well, you have no under no circumstances can 40 feet con- chance of having a successful prosecution, I tainers be entertained, and if one should would say, the way things are at this come in and our "C and U's" today are moment. I thank the hon. member of my not passed, what chance have we got of Board, Mr. Cringle, for his support and I prosecuting? The hon. member for Council, thank indeed my hon. Vice-Chairman for Mr. Simcocks, talked about the damage on his support, and as he rightly said we must minor roads. Well, as I pointed out, the be realistic about this. Mr. MacDonald, the powers exist and I would say that all roads hon. member for Council, his remarks about

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the hole in the road reinforces once again passed, would not allow any larger vehicles what I said is involved, incorporated in to be used on the roads in the Island than these "C and U's", that we must have con- are being used legally or illegally at the trol of axle loading and spacings and that moment. will then do away with the excessive road damage which a vehicle can do, and I. Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Can I say that what endorse fully his remarks about the neces- is in general use at the moment would be sity of passing these "C and U's" here today. encompassed within these "C and U's". A Mr. Kneale and his designated roads, well, large vehicle, and there is one, which carries of course, as I have endeavoured to point an indivisible load, we must allow for that. out, we already have the power to do this. but that will not be general. It will be on I can do no better than say once again that special permission only and then it will be with the passing of these regulations the with a police escort. Otherwise the vehicles Highway Board would be once again in the one meets on the Laxey/Ramsey road or driving seat so that, and I am saying it word wherever at present are the ones which will for word as 1 said it before, if what I would be allowed. To the hon. member for Council. term a proper juggernaut came into the I can do no better than say that I will Island we would then be able to clamp down certainly ensure that the Highway Board on him and prosecute, hopefully, with some debates the question which you are asking sort of success. The way things are at the at its next meeting. moment we would, as I say, a lawyer as Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, in view inarticulate and as inefficient as myself could of the reply from the hon. member, have I get any carrier off the way things are in the permission of this Court to withdraw the Isle of Man. Your Excellency, I beg to my amendment? My concern is that, in fact, move. if the amendment had been passed it would Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, may I ask cause a delay of one month. Only if this a question of the hon. Chairman? Will the resolution fails will there be a six months' Chairman give an indication, or an under- delay but, in view of the assurance given, taking, to the Court that the question of 1 am happy to withdraw my amendment. speed limits to be imposed upon these The Governor: Is that agreed? vehicles will be considered urgently by the Board with a view to reducing the speed It was agreed. limits so as to reduce the damage caused by their operation? Mr. .1. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, the hon. member for Middle has raised a point Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I which I did not answer, about the sale of will certanily give that assurance. I have new vehicles, supposedly over what we have been on this. When I came into the Highway here now and his leaflets which describe Board one of the first things I inquired them in the garages here. I think that if 1 about was the speed limit and the enforce- was a manufacturer and I manufactured ment of it for heavy vehicles on the Island. 40 vehicles, then every distributor would get have travelled behind, as indeed other a parcel containing a sample of every piece members probably have, a laden vehicle of literature I had. Just because some of travelling at 45 or 50, sometimes 50-plus these leaflets have landed in the Isle of Man miles an hour and I am very disturbed about does not mean that the vehicle would ever this and 1 can assure you that the Board, be sold here as a new vehicle. through its officials, is now making inquiries and we are very much aware of the The Governor: Now, hon. members, I put problem. the question as it appears on the Agenda Paper. Would those in favour please say Mr. Simcocks: The question was, Your aye: against, no. Excellency, would the Board take steps to reduce the present statutory speed limits for A division was called for and voting these very heavy vehicles? resulted as follows:- - Mr. Christian: Could I just ask for a point In the Keys— of clarification from the Chairman? I under- For: Messrs. Anderson, J. J. Radcliffe, P. stood him to say that these regulations, if Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Catlin, Creer,

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Walker, Cringle, Quinney, Ward, Irving, including our relationship with our head of Christian, Swales and the Speaker — 14. state, Her Majesty The Queen, and her re- Against: Messrs. Quirk, Watterson, Lowey, presentative, whether or not he should have Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Craine, Kermeen an A.D.C./Private Secretary, should he have and Dr. Moore — 7. a Surgeon to the Household, and we even discussed such a momentous constitutional The Speaker: Your Excellency, the re- issue as who should appoint the man or solution carries in the House of Keys, 14 woman to carry the Sword of State on votes being cast in favour and seven votes Tynwald Day. All very good, fiery nationalist against. stuff that local politics in the Isle of Man In the Council— are made of, but nowhere did the present For: the Lord Bishop, Sir John Bolton, inequality of electoral representation occur Messrs. Crellin, Moore, Nivison, Ker- as a recommendation from the Constitu- ruish, Simcocks and MacDonald — 8. tional Committee, and 1 consider, Your Excellency, and many people in this Island, Against: Mr. Kneale — 1. certainly the townspeople, and a lot of The Governor: In the Council, eight in people in the country, consider it is essential favour, one against. The resolution there- that Tynwald does seriously consider this. fore carries. A Member: How do you know?

Mr. MacDonald: Just as you knew that REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE they were all worried about who should —PART (1) OF MOTION LOST; carry the sword. (Interruption.) Sister Anna PART (2) APPROVED. was carrying the banner, yes. (Laughter.) The right to free elections for all people is The Governor: Item number 30. The hon. enshrined in the Universal Declaration of member for Council, Mr. MacDonald. the United Nations in Article 21, paragraph Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I beg 3, and I quote: "The will of the people shall to move:— be the basis of the authority of govern- (1) That Tynwald Court accepts the ment." I am not saying this occurs through- principle of universal suffrage and confirms out the world, but it occurs in a country its adherence to the United Nations, Euro- which fought a war to try to ensure this pean Community and British ideal of one occurred. "This will also be expressed in man one vote for one representative in all periodic and genuine elections, which shall elections to the House of Keys or other representative authorities. be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret ballot." The United (2) Tynwald requests Your Excellency in Nations Covenant, based on that, on civil Executive Council to appoint a COMM% SSOI7 of Inquiry to investigate and report within and political rights, is provided in Article one year on how the principle in (1) above 25 - - that every citizen shall have the right can be implemented thus ensuring that the and the opportunity to vote and to be Manx electorate have absolute equality in elected at genuine, periodic elections, which choosing the representatives they seek and shall be by universal and equal suffrage and thus reflect the wishes and desires of the shall be held by secret ballot, guaranteeing majority of the electorate. the free expression of the will of the elec- I would like to move this resolution by torate. These principles have been accepted saying that I hope members today will not by this Court, by the United Kingdom look upon this as me trying, or anyone Government, and by all of free Europe. In trying, to put them out of business. What I fact, one of the conditions of entry of Spain am hoping to do is to draw to the attention and Greece to the European Community has of the Court a blatant inequality that exists been that they must abide by this declara- in our present constitutional position with tion. All the free world accepts it as being relation to the equal representation of the one of the most important of all the rights people of the Isle of Man, because the basis guaranteed by the United Nations Charter, of all democracy is equal rights to all men. Convention and Protocol. I honestly believe, Now, Your Excellency, earlier on the Your Excellency, that all members of this Agenda we did discuss constitutional issues, most ancient and honourable Court believe

Representation of the People—Part (1) of Motion Lost; Part (2) Approved. T888 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 in democracy in its modern form and its will quote some examples, without any ever-changing form, which has been achieved criticism of members sitting in these seats. after generations of struggle. Lord Hai'sham because they have been elected to the House reminded us recently in a book that he pro- of Keys under the present system, but I do duced that truly equal representative govern- believe it is wrong. One of the examples I ment is an English invention which has will quote is the Glenfaba consituency spread all over the world, its object being to where, with 2,542 voters, they have two prevent the oppression of the mass of the representatives whilst Peel, its neighbour, people by arbitrary rule, although it was has 2,662 voters with only one representative. Englishmen, quite capable of wielding arbi- I think it is wrong that North Douglas with trary power, who did in fact demand that an 3,090 voters has only one representative arbitrary ruler sign and seal Magna Carta. whilst Ayre, with 2,505, has two, and Garff, Perhaps they unwittingly, these men, with 2,750, has two. I am certain this in- demanded equal rights for all under the equality can be overcome without drastically law. I do not think they at the time were altering our democracy, and at the same expecting that. They were demanding equal time would give everyone that equal suffrage rights really for themselves, but unwittingly at the ballot box which the people in many they did give all men equal rights. It was parts of the Island no longer feel they have, their action which, over the years, produced and give them the feeling that after 1,000 the form of electoral rights and other rights years of Tynwald it does not mean that we which we, the Manx, obtained after a long are tied to the status quo, since the old order struggle in 1866, but even then Manx must change, 1 believe, Your Excellency, democracy, equality of rights, was not per- yielding place to the new, even in the Isle fect and since that date amendments have of Man. Finally, I feel that members of the taken place in the representation of the Commission, who I believe should be Manx- people. Your Excellency, I believe that men — but that is entirely up to the Court democracy must be defended, fought for and — with such advisers as they require, should constantly adapted to meet changing times, not be politicians, thus proving to all men and it is for this reason that I ask the Court and women in the Island that their decisions today to agree to a Commission of Inquiry and recommendations are based, as far as into what is a form of inequality, left over it is humanly possible to get them, on from earlier centuries. I am not asking today equality to all and absolutely free from any for an immediate decision, and this is a political bias or prejudice. Now, Your Excel- thing I would like to stress. I am asking lency, that is all 1 wish to say and what I really for a long-term look at the present hope the people of the Island will look at situation, with recommendations made to today is whether or not we do believe in the Court as to whether or not we are, in equality, whether we do believe in honest fact, abiding by what the United Nations democracy, or are we trying to retain this Charter sets as the right of all people. 1 am for our own ends, as we must remember the sure that all really honest and democratic earlier House of Keys very rigidly held on members of this Court, looking at the situa- to for nearly 900 years, well, certainly 800 tion, will agree that privilege in any electoral years, very very rigidly held on to, and I do system is no longer acceptable, and it must not think that we today must be seen to be be removed and constantly guarded against. trying to protect this same sort of nonsense. No member can possibly agree to a system I honestly believe that people in the certain which gives a minority of the electorate of areas of the Isle of Man do not have equal this Island two or even three votes, with a representation. I think it is wrong that in right to plump for one candidate or cast one constituency a man can have three votes for two or three as it suits his will, representatives in this House whilst in the yet gives the vast majority of the electorate bulk of the constituencies a man can only one vote only. How this inequality should have one representative. be removed I would leave to the Commis- A Member: Three single seats. sion to recommend. They may even, in the process, consider using proportional repre- Mr. MacDonald: Ah, no, but they all sentation as a system, but it is no longer represent him. Let us not get this wrong. tolerable, 1 believe, Your Excellency, and 1 They all three represent that man. He put

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his mark on the ballot paper for three men. issued and their terms of reference were to In fact, it is almost a bookmakers number, examine existing and any alternative systems any three from seven, any two from five. of elections to the House of Commons and This is not democracy. I do not believe it is possible systems of election for any legis- democracy. if that be so, then let us hand lative assemblies that may be established out extra seats, and 1 do not think Tynwald within the United Kingdom. It was a very would want that. 1 do not think that solves high-powered Commission, chaired by the the problem, handing out extra seats. I Provost of Queen's College, Oxford. I would think the answer is to keep the number as recommend it for reading to the hon. mem- it is, but make certain that representation is, bers but, as I say, the temptation is to get as far as we can make it, equal to all men rather technical over this. All 1 want is an and women. That is all I have got to say. examination, not the issue to be decided, and here may I anticipate the remarks of Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I would my hon. friend, the hon. member for Glen- like to second this and, if I may, make my faba, and there is no doubt he is a friend remarks without reserve by referring to this of mine because he takes such an interest in book, "Viking Heritage". 1 think there is a my travels if not my trials and tribulations correction required in it, and I am not re- (Laughter.) We have got to come down to ferring to the English penny that got basics here. What we have got to prove, amongst the Manx coins at the back. That hon. members, is this, to show to the man got there without the concurrence of the in Willaston that by voting for only one Finance Board. No. I refer to the notable member of this hon. House he is not under- and momentous events in Manx history - privileged in relation to the man from Port 1866, the House of Keys Election Act pro- St. Mary who votes for three members of vided for universal suffrage. Not so, Your this House. That is the basic, then we are Excellency. When you welcomed the Lord getting to the grass roots. Until we show Mayor of London in this Chamber you that he is not under-privileged, we have still mentioned 1,000 years of unbroken demo- not got democracy in this Island. cratic government. Well, as Professor Joab used to say, it depends on what you mean Mr. Moore: I think this is an occasion by democratic, and I think there is a general where everybody can be very brief because concensus of opinion in the Island that 1 am absolutely certain in my own mind some of your predecessors were autocrats that all the eloquence in the world will not rather than democrats. The matter before us change the opinion of one member of this today is liable, and I would be more guilty hon. Court on this issue. But at least we than most in becoming academic or profes- should get up and say again during the sional in considering the question of electoral course of the new House what we feel about law reform. Two years ago I brought the this particular issue. 1 have said it loud and idea of a Commission before this hon. Court. clear on election platforms that I want to The Keys passed it 14 votes to 10, the see during the course of my term of office Council defeated it by two votes to four. proportional representation and single-seat There was a joint vote two months later, constituencies. There are the basic points with 17 votes in favour, 16 aginst — not the that we are talking about when we talk requisite majority, and two Keys members about this particular motion. All that the had changed their views. In other words, mover of this resolution has said is that this what I am saying here is that we have to House should now look at the question look I think half-way through our present again by the appointment of a Commission term not at just the question of con- to look into whether the feeling ... The first stituencies or distribution, but the whole thing you have got to do, of course, is to question of whether we have got to do find out whether there is sufficient interest something in time for the next General and feeling among the present members with Election. Voters lists, the question of the 10 new members downstairs as to deposits, there are all sorts of matters which whether they feel that there is something to I hope will not be ignored and then in the be looked at here. The points have already last few months developed in great haste. In been explained, as I say, so eloquently that 1976 the Report of the Hansard Society mere repetition does not add anything at all Commission on Electoral Reform was to it, so therefore there is no need for me

Representation of the People—Part (1) of Motion Lost; Part (2) Approved. T890 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 to mention how simple it would be to give of members have been put in for their first every person in this Island the same term of office. They should spell out now privilege of going to the poll and saying: where they stand on these two important "This is the man I am voting for in pre- points to the Manx public. Are you in ference to Mr. X." The present system, we favour of single-seat constituencies and do know it only too well, and particularly those you believe in proportional representation? members in double-seat and treble-seat con- stituencies know only too well that the Mr. Catlin: Your Excellency, the first people they are fighting pat them on the thing I want to say is that I, too, like the shoulder with all the good will in the world hon. mover of this resolution, believe in and say, "Of course I am not against you, democracy. The only thing I would like to you know, it is the other fellow." If you say is that my interpretation of it is going are standing on a platform, as I have to do to be slightly different to his. His resolution or the hon. member had to do, both of us does deal, as far as I understand it, with in single-seat constituencies, we stood on a single-seat constituencies but in part of his platform, we indicated what our policies case this morning he has brought in re- were and we indicated how they differed distribution which is not, as I understand from those who wished to oppose us and it, part of the resolution. When I first looked there was the choice for the public. Not, at the Tynwald Agenda, I thought that there "Ah, well, you slip me a vote and it will do was more than the usual number of contro- no harm if you want to vote for Joe Bloggs." versial subjects to deal with and, in my This is not democracy in the making. I feel opinion, none more so than this item num- that the basis of this thing is to get a ber 30, and I would like to make it clear Commission now to look at the situation from the very outset that l am opposed to again. Can we not, with the intelligence in this resolution because I can find absolutely this Court, produce a Commission who can no justification for it whatsoever. Yesterday, come back with some sort of recommenda- the hon. member of the Council, Mr. Mac- tion for single-seat constituencies, for the 24 Donald, said during the debate on constitu- seats to remain, for a certain amount of tional issues that no-one had spoken to him proportional representation? Not to get about the Sword of State. I wonder how hold of the 65,000 figure and divide it many have spoken to him about the justi- equally into 24, not necessarily that, but to fication for having single-seat constituencies? take districts as they stand. If you just look, for instance, at the position in Middle con- Mr. MacDonald: The whole of Peel. stituency where 6,000-odd of the voters are Mr. Collin: Because I can tell you, Mr. already in Onchan and are fully entitled to MacDonald, that no-one ever raised this be represented by two members in this with me until it appeared on this Agenda, House in their own right. But all the mem- and then I can tell you that those who have bers who represent Middle have to go contacted me, those who have spoken to knocking on doors down as far as the me, were very much against it. I would have Fairy Bridge and up as far as the Eairy thought that the proper thing to do before Dam. This is what it amounts to, this is endeavouring to make a major change at their constituency as it at present stands, and this time was first to obtain a mandate to it is the same in the Rushen area where, if do it. I certainly do not have a mandate to you were talking in very simple terms, Port support such a resolution as this and I would Erin with a population of 2,000-odd, Port very much doubt if there are many who St. Mary with 1,500, in the districts outside have, if any at all. Futhermore, I feel that something in the region of 4,000, now if to appoint a Commission of Inquiry would somebody could not do some simple arith- be an unnecessary expense and a waste of metic and work out single-seat constituencies someone's valuable time. However, refer- within the province of their own areas, I ring to the resolution, the first part deals cannot see anything more simple. As I say, with a principle and a so-called ideal. I have I do not think by any eloquent speeches not heard one word of complaint from any that we are going to change the minds of member of the general public on this issue, any person in this Court, but I do think so do not understand how or why the we should make our minds up again. A lot so-called principle or British ideal of one

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man one vote arises. We are in the Isle of but we all are aware of their opinion of the Man and we have a system which, although so-called British ideal. it may be different from the system, which applies on the mainland, has, as far as I Sir John Bolton: Your Excellency, am aware, been universally accepted over would like to suggest that the resolution a great many years by the Manx people, has been drafted in such a way that it is and if this is so, why change it? If we want really very difficult to understand exactly E) debate the question of meeting the what the motives of the mover of the wishes and desires of the majority of the resolution are, but he did give them, away electorate, I am sure that their wish would in his speech. All this talk about the United be that we did not automatically follow what Nations accepting the principle of universal goes on outside the Isle of Man. Regarding suffrage, one man one vote for one person, the second part of the resolution, this gives it is all very good stuff to bring out, but the impression that the Manx people are at it does not mean a thing. Then we go on to a disadvantage in choosing the representative appointing a Commission of Inquiry to they seek, and that the present system does investigate and report. What the hon. not reflect their wishes and desires. As far member is looking for is redistribution of as I can see the only people, if any, who seats, this is all he is wanting. This sticks are at any disadvantage are those four out a mile. He got down to comparing Peel single-seat constituencies, so if there was a with so many, and Glenfaba with so many, resolution to say, amalgamate, say, Michael and Willaston or whatever it was that he with Ayre and Peel with Glenfaba, I would referred to, North Douglas with so many, accept that there was some substance for with three to represent Middle. It is quite such a proposal. I am satisfied that there are obvious to me. I think that if this resolution many benefits in our present system.. In the were couched in terms where he was calling two- and three-seat constituencies there is a for redistribution of seats and for a Com- much better chance of getting representa- mittee to consider that question I would tives who are more widely accepted. If a support him, but certainly I would not member of the public has a complaint or support a woolly resolution of this kind any other matter to be looked into, he has which any Committee would be puzzled to a choice of who to take his complaint to. understand. T feel quite certain that if I Single-seat constituencies would generally were placed on a Committee of this sort favour the party candidate. In fact, if all where we have got the proposer raising one matter, we have got the seconder raising seats in the House of Keys were single another, and referring to various matters seats it could well mean the end of the which are not included in the resolution or independent candidate and is this what the M the lion. member's speech ... Then we mover of the resolution wants to achieve? have the question of proportional represen- I suspect that this is one of those subjects tation raising its ugly head. I think we want on which every member of this hon. Court t,) get down to basics and understand that, will already hold strong views. I would as far as I can see, the hon. member says doubt very much if the findings of any he wants redistribution and there may well Commission would alter those views one be a case for redistribution and I would way or the other, so, as i have already not object to that being investigated, but stated, why appoint one? I would say, Your to put forward a resolution of this sort is Excellency, let us leave well alone. if any- not one which 1 can support. one feels that a change is necessary on the Mr. Simcocks: I do not delude myself into lines as proposed then let him make it an thinking that anything said this morning is election issue in November 1981. Finally, likely to affect the way in which hon. let me again refer to the wording of the members will vote, but in the event of a resolution, where is stated the British ideal Commission being appointed 1 think it is of one man one vote for one representative right that the views of members should be in all elections. What can be ideal about a available to that Commission when coming system where so many are elected on such to a decision. Like the hon. member, Sir minority votes as applied on the mainland? John Bolton, I, too, take the view that this am not a member of the Liberal party, is really nothing more or less than an

Representation of the People—Part (I) of Motion Lost; Part (2) Approved. '1'892 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 exercise in re-distribution of seats; indeed, I Isle of Man is best representated in the go further, an exercise of town against House of Keys today. It is my honest belief country. Let us be under no illusions as to and it is a matter which, in my present that. One or two points should be made somewhat temporary situation, I understand, however. The hon. and gallant member for is one of academic interest to me personally. the Council has drawn to our attention I believe that the representation of the certain statistics convenient to his argument. opinion of people in the Isle of Man is I would like to point out another statistic, better served in multi-seat constituencies perhaps less convenient for him, and that is than by other methods. I, personally, would the number of people on the electoral role not be in favour of this motion. in East Douglas. I do not have the figure off-hand but I should think it is an extra- Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, I am sup- ordinarily small figure and certainly too small porting this resolution. At this stage it is to justify, in cold logic, the return of two merely asking for an examination into the members. On the other hand, there is also electoral system. must confess that I have the question of single-seat constituencies. always held the view that one man one vote We well remember, I think, the recent in a single member constituency was election to the European Parliament which arithmetically the fairest way of providing produced a demand for a more equal for an electoral system. But it was only method of representation of the people of yesterday, I think, when members, quite Britain in the Parliament at Strasbourg and rightly so, were agreeing that we had to Luxembourg. One of the arguments put have constitutional amendment, that as we forward there was that much the best evolved the Tynwald Court should have method of giving these people the oppor- greater power, and, of course, 1 agree, but, tunity of fair and representative member- at the same time, it is also essential that ship, reflecting as many opinions as possible, we have an electoral system where a man's was the very principle of multi-seat con- vote has the same value, the same arithme- stituencies. I believe 1 have been involved in tical value, wherever he comes from in the four General Elections in a constituency Isle of Man. This is an arithmetical essen- which does have three members. I am tial in any constitutional development. If we convinced, as a result of that experience, set up this Committee these things will be that a constituency with multi-seat repre- gone into and I would go even further than sentation very often represents a much this and say that when we establish electoral wider, much more moderate and much boards, districts or whatever, they are not more representative return of members sacred to be left for hundreds of years, they than is likely to occur in the case of single- may be amended and revised from time to seat constituencies. I can see little reason time, depending upon whether there is a for any redistribution, which is really the movement of population between one area crux of the matter. I recognise that his and another. I know that what I am saying move is to obtain a higher representation is hypothetical. i have not gone into the of urban areas than of rural areas at the arithmetic of population. There are 45,000 moment. I point out that if his argument voters in the Isle of Man and I would is to be taken literally we must look at the presume that if there are 24 members then size of constituencies in Britain today and each member would, on that basis, be compare at the recent election the number representing something like 1,800 electorate of people who are voting for, let us say, in his particular area. Ebbw Vale and compare that with the Mr. Nivison: If they all voted. fraction of that number who were voting for a representative in the Birmingham Mr. Swales: if they all voted. That is not constituency of Ladysmith. Clearly, this is a matter for this Court to decide. It is a not an exercise to which mathematical matter for the electorate. They may decide consideration should be exclusively referred. to put up 20 people or 40 people or two f think we should look at it from the point people, that is not for this Court to decide. of view of whether or not in the present f heard this morning that, in fact, if we do circumstances the vast matter of the repre- this we will introduce party politics. I sentation of the opinion of people in the cannot answer that. Neither can the member

Representation of the People—Part (I) of Motion Lost; Part (2) Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T893

who is making the case. Again let us say of the electors can elect three people and that that is not a matter for this Court. It the rest of the area can be without a is a matter for the electorate of the Isle of representative at all. He said that he would Man. If they wish to elect 24 right-wingers be in favour if Mr. MacDonald had come or left-wingers or whatever kind of wingers, forward with a move for Peel and Michael it is their decision, not the decision of this to join together. That would give them two Court. So, on this basis, I certainly, at this votes each and that would be a great thing. stage, would support this resolution which It would be a great thing for Peel but it would allow any independent inquiry into would be a very bad thing for Michael, the electoral system. because you would find that Peel would be electing the two members. Now these are Mr. Kneale: I believe that an inquiry the faults of the present system. I support should be carried out into the complete the second part of the resolution, ignoring electoral system of the Isle of Man but the part about one man, one vote, one there are a lot of things that the mover put representative under the present system. forward that I. do not agree with at all. The Preferential voting is the only way to question of single-seat constituencies, I achieve a proper representative who has believe there is more chance of members been democratically elected by a majority being provided for the House of Keys on of the people and I believe that preferential a minority vote by single-seat constituencies voting, not proportional representation, is if you are going to leave the electoral much more important when you come down system as it is at the moment. Proportional to 'consideration. representation has been mentioned. I am not a believer in an exact proportional repre- Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, very briefly, sentation because minority groups, and in I, too, was rather surprised at the hon. mem- this case it could be some of the country ber for Middle, Mr. Cabin, commenting that, groups, could be at a very distinct dis- in fact, it has never been an issue. Middle, advantage. I do believe there is need for a I assume, must be somewhat different from redistribution of seats but looking at the Rushen. Members for Rushen have, over a situation of turning the Island into one-seat period of time, on various occasions, ex- constituencies based on the present electoral pressed opinions on this, and have been system, we are talking about democracy, asked to express opinions on this at public this is what you would get, and we will take meetings and, in fact, some of us have even the situation of a constituency with 1,000 commented in a manifesto, which sometimes voters. We know that about 75 per cent. of could prove to be a dangerous thing to do. the people go to the poll at a General However, agree with the hon. mover that Election, so 750 people go to the poll. We we should definitely today appoint a Com- have had quite a lot of candidates coming mission. I think there is a need for a forward for election and we will just say, Commission. Taking the hon. member for for easy figures, that 10 people stood for Council, Mr. Kneale's, point entirely, pro- election. All the successful candidate would bably the best and fairest way to elect a need to obtain would be 76 votes to be House of Keys in the Isle of Man is pre- elected. if there was an even vote, eight ferential voting where the whole of the Isle people get 75 votes each, one with 74 and of Man would vote for 24 members. That the man elected could get 76 votes. The is probably the right and proper way if you fact that 674 people had voted against him want to get an arithmetically true correct and 250 had not bothered to come and vote thing. You can only follow that up by at all would not matter. Now this is how saying one further thing and that is that we ridiculous our present system. is and it should have com.pulsory voting, and I know certainly needs looking at. I believe that the the problems that could be attached to that hon. member for Middle, Mr. Cabin, should with people writing slogans and goodness be supporting an investigating Committee to knows what on their cars, but I think there look at this matter as well. I can quite is, similarly, a case for saying that there appreciate why he is in favour of retaining should be 'compulsory voting. This will three seats for Middle, because this is one undoubtedly go against me but, neverthe- case in point where Onchan, the majority less, I do so particularly as a member

Representation of tile People—Part (1) of Motion Lost; Part (2) Approved. T894 'TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 representing a three-seat constituency and lege to represent a multi-seat constituency, 1 would say quite categorically that there that I have advocated throughout my is an unfairness in the system which says political life, short as it is, that we should that a person can go and cast one vote at be going for single-seat constituencies. That the ballot box or that they can cast two. has been my undisguised aim, not for party It is a vote for and it is also a vote advantage, although I am a party man, but against. In my opinion that is similarly because I am quite sure, and it has been wrong and if you are staying with multi- represented to me by supporters of mine. seat constituencies, well then, I personally that if I was to support single-seat con- think that those multi-seat constituencies situencies it would effectively work against should also have an element of compulsion me, personally. Be that as it may, that does in, that all votes should be cast to fill the not alter my belief that it is right. We number of seats and we have been over represent people not areas, and people, that one recently too. patterns of settlement, population move- ment, require that we look at the problem The Speaker: As I have listened to this afresh, regularly. As I say, we cannot do it debate, I. think it is becoming so farcical too regularly but we can do it on a 10 or that it is rather like the book "The I5-year basis. I think that is fair, think Specialist"— one, two or three seats. Any- that is proper. All this resolution says is for way, apart from, that, I am opposed to the an independent Commission to sit and resolution. At this stage I want to confess inquire. My hon. friend for the Council, that it was my vote that brought about the Mr. Simcocks, said it is his contention that present pattern of representation in this people's interests are served better in multi- House. There was a division, a complete seat constituencies. Be that as it may, the straight division between town and country Commission may very well decide that that on the representation here and I was the is a better way for the Isle of Man to do traitor from the country district who it. What we are deciding this morning is turned over and lost the seats to Michael not for our own personal point of view. It and Ayre, and caused the pattern of redistri- is for an inquiry to look at, then, if you do bution at that time. I am not prepared to not like what is proposed you can amend or go any further at this stage at all and this reject but I think it is incumbent upon us is a straight issue on redistribution, nothing that we at least have the courage to look else. We can talk about full representation at it after 1,000 years of parliamentary for the Isle of Man and all that sort of democracy, in brackets. thing. We know very well we can go through A Member: In brackets and a question this exercise and at the end of the day it mark. will be defeated anyway, so let us do it now, throw it out, and we know exactly where we Mr. Lowey: Surely we are mature enough stand. and strong enough and have a firm enough foundation to look at our organisation. Mr. Lowey: No, if ] may just have a few That, I think, is the message that should words. You know, looking at the resolution go out from this Court today. We are not on the paper, 1 do not think members ought loathe or slow in corning forward to ask to take it word for word. I think the first for inquiries into every other organisation, part is a preamble. The second part on the be it marketing or what have you. Let us fourth line says that the Manx electorate not be shy in looking at ourselves and if, by should have absolute equality in choosing looking at ourselves, we would be accused, the representatives they seek. There is no if there was a Commission set up from such thing as absolute equality but, and it members of this Court, that is why I sup- is a very big and important but, there are port an independent Commission to have a ways and means of making it as fair as is look at it. I make no bones about it, I humanly possible and not, I suggest, every believe that we should be seen to be fair to five years but I think we should be prepared the people we represent and 1 think the to look at it at least every 10 or 15 years Court will be very wise to support it. and, on that basis alone, I think the re- solution is well worth supporting. 1 do Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I would believe, Your Excellency, having the privi- oppose this resolution. 1 certainly do not

Representation of the People—Part (1) of Motion Lost; Part (2) Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T895 agree that 24 single-seat constituencies see what hon. members felt about this ques- would be best for the Isle of Man. 1 would tion and then, of course, too, there is the agree, though, that part (1) of the resolution problem of creating the correct terms of is right. One man, one vote for one repre- reference for the Commission and that, I sentative and, in my opinion, the multi-seat believe, can only be done when hon. mem- constituencies that we have at the moment bers have said their bit and the hon. mem- do not violate that principle. The hon. ber who is putting forward the motion has member for Council, Mr. Crellin, said the explained to us exactly what he means by last time this issue was debated that when this, to me, extremely complicated wording there was less than one man one vote that here. I support the motion, I believe that was the time for concern, not the reverse. the mover seems to have two aims here. I have read carefully the two reports, the Firstly, redistribtuion of seats in the House Committee's report in 1955 and the Com- of Keys. Whether he uses that particular mission's report in 1961, and have come description or not 1 am sure that this is his to the conclusion that the pattern of re- aim and I do not believe that it is possible presentation that we have at the moment to split the Island up into single-member encompassing single-, double and three-seat constituencies without redistribution of constituencies, is not unfair and it does give seats. 1 hope, as one hon. member said, that a good balance of representation in the this is not one of the fights between town House of Keys and if we look at the balance and country. I hope that went out many, at the moment we find we have 11 members many years ago. I know it existed in this representing urban constituencies and there Court a long time ago. 1 have not seen it are 10 members representing rural con- for many years and I hope it remains buried. stituencies and then there are three members I would suggest that some redistribution of for Middle, which has the large conurbation seats is justified now without any question of population in a rural area and they hold of United Nations Charters and Conventions the balance and I think that that is a pretty and so on, for two reasons, for two hap- fair share-out. I support the first part of the penings on the Island. Firstly, the abolition resolution but not the second. of plural voting. I was fortunate with a Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I believe, in private member's Bill some years ago to case this motion is carried by the Court, that achieve the abolition of plural voting in it is important that hon. members express House of Keys elections. This has affected their views on this subject and I am just the number of electors in the various con- wondering whether you wish me to continue stituencies and I must be fair and admit my now or adjourn for lunch. We have got to own constituency- of East Douglas has come back anyway. certainly suffered in the abolition of plural voting. All the shopkeepers and other people The Governor: Hon. members, do you in the constituency lost their property vote. wish the Court to adjourn? Many, many occupiers of tourist premises It was agreed. in the area have moved and now have The Governor: The Court will adjourn private houses in Onchan, in particular, and until 2.30 p.m. other parts of the Island so that the number of voters in East Douglas has gone down The Court adjourned for lunch. considerably and when I look at the other constituencies I might find it, and I must admit this, hard to justify the existence of REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE two members for the constituency of East —DEBATE CONCLUDED. Douglas. So my first reason is the abolition of plural voting affecting the voting strength Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, l was saying in the various constituencies. My second is before we adjourned for luncheon today that I thought it was important that if we the movement of population and we must are to have a Commission of Inquiry into remember it is now, I would think, 23, 24 this matter that hon. members should ex- years since we had redistribution of seats press their views so that the Commission put forward by the hon. member of Council, would, when it was first sitting, be able to Sir John Bolton. In those 24 years there has look at the report of the debate today and been a terrific movement of people on the

Representation of the People—Debate Concluded. T896 TYNWALD COURT. JUNE 20, 1979

Island and in certain cases movement away the public demanding most of the things on from the town into the country and it might our Agenda today and the hon. member well be, for example, and we always seemed says why change, leave well alone. If the to pick on this constituency in the past, that hon. member believes in waiting for public the constituency of Ayre may have more demand and not changing, why on earth did voters now than it had some years ago. 1 he vote in the previous motion before this ought to mention, too, certainly in the case Court for large vehicles on the Island when of East Douglas, there is a movement of he knows quite well that if put to the public. population there from Chester Street and and perhaps they do not know all the facts. Wellington Square and other areas where but certainly if put to the public they would the buildings have been demolished. Now, have opposed it. So he was voting against the suggestion is, of course, that we have public demand but there we are. I hope hon. single-seat constituencies. 1 cannot recall members will support this. 1 would not like whether it was the Commission on re- it to be thought that I was supporting it distribution, the MacDermott Commission, because it is a battle between town and or which, but I know it was suggested and country. I have been in this Court on many I suppose this is against my argument, one occasions when the most popular thing I of the disadvantages of single-seat con- could have done would have been to vote stituencies is that it makes the situation too against agricultural interests. I never have parochial. Members with a small number of and 1 believe nowadays this old spirit of electors tend to get too parochial. I hope fighting between the town and the country this is not true. It is not an argument that has long gone. I think this is well worth would affect me in supporting this today. I investigation and 1 hope hon. members will do not claim to be an expert on con- support the hon. member in his motion here stituencies but I must say I am probably the but when he does reply I hope he will only member of the House of Keys who explain very clearly indeed what sort of has ever represented three different con- things he has got in his mind on this par- stituencies and the reason probably is that ticular motion. after five years in one constituency people get to know you and you have to move on Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, following (laughter) — but there we are. Three dif- roughly on the lines which the hon. Mr. ferent constituencies. Now the second aim, Acting-Speaker has just pursued, I would I believe, of the hon. member is to abolish like to say that 1 shall be voting for the plural voting in local authority elections. He second part of this resolution but I shall not talks about one man, one vote. l assume be voting for the first part because I do not that this is his aim here. This is what he wholly understand the first part as it is at hopes the Commission would investigate and present written. 1 am a little bit worried I would have thought it was quite time that about the end of that first part but I believe we would agree to the abolition of plural that we in Tynwald should always be voting in local authority elections. I think examining ourselves and seeing if there is it has been regarded for many years now any way in which we can improve the repre- that people have a vote because they are sentation of the people in the Isle of Man. people, not for what they own, not because As far as I am concerned, the situation as they own certain properties and so on. I had it is at the moment has worked very well a vote in another part of the Island because in general terms but 1 believe that time of a small property, shall we say, and T never marches on and with the point of view which was expressed by Mr. Acting-Speaker thought it was fair that I should have an a few minutes ago there have been quite equal say with someone who lived in the dramatic changes in the movement of popu- particular community. So those, I believe, lation in the isle of Man and the swing of are the two aims of the hon. member and I emphasis in the various constituencies and would support them. I was disappointed at so I think it is right that we should have an the hon. member for Middle, Mr. Callin, inquiry into that system. I do not think it who opposed it this morning, of course with can do any harm, I think it can do a great the usual argument that there is no public deal of good, but i do not want at this demand, the public have not demanded it, stage to reaffirm the question of single-seat we hear it all the time. I cannot remember constituencies. Potential redistribution, if

Representation or the People—Debate Concluded.

TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T897

necessary, bearing in mind that all this shall I say, representing Ayre or, possibly, resolution entails is the appointment of a two members, and I would fully support the Commission to look at this problem and to idea that this resolution should be with- bring its recommendations back to Tynwald. drawn at this moment in time and the whole I believe that this cannot be bad, I believe issue should be discussed in 1981 at election it can only be for good, and l shall support time. The second part of the resolution says that part of the resolution. let us have a Commission. Now who is the Commission going to be? Where are you Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, 1 going to pick them from? Are they going wonder many a time what we are trying to to be local people within the Isle of Man do when we consider these resolutions. or are they going to be people brought from Nobody has been able to convince me up outside the Isle of Man or should they be to now, listening to this debate, that what people who are voters in the Isle of Man? we are considering this morning is not the The hon. member in charge of the resolution situation regarding redistribution of seats. I said to me, at lunch-time, why do we not think many of us forget how we have come have a referendum? We have passed the law to be in this hon. Chamber. We have been so we can have a referendum and if we elected here to represent various areas, had a referendum he said we should get a whether they be rural areas or urban areas, sweeping majority in favour of single-seat and the hon. Mr. Acting-Speaker has made constituencies. I doubt it very much. As far a comment that he does not want to see any as I am concerned I will be quite happy to division between town and country. None of see a referendum, much more than having us want to see it. I think we hope that that a Commission set up to inquire into this to day has gone and gone for ever. Our main tell us what our voters will have to put up object is to vote and govern for the best with in the future. To me, we must not for- of the Isle of Man but I do not think we ger that we are democratically elected and as should also, on the other hand, forget the far as I am concerned my responsibility is areas we do represent and the people who to the people, principally, in my consti- put its here. I do not think for one moment tuency but, in general, to the people in the if I, for instance, was to stand as a member Isle of Man and I am not prepared to of the House of Keys for Douglas 1 would support either part of this resolution until I stand an earthly chance of ever getting in. have an opportunity to go back to my When we think about single-seat con- people and say to them, this is the situation stituencies, let us cast our minds back to now being discussed in Tynwald, are you the election which took place in Kirk prepared to accept it or are you not? As far Michael some years ago when I think seven as 1 am concerned, I think the situation we persons stood for that single-seat con- have is quite satisfactory and I will not be stituency and the member who was elected supporting either part of the resolution. had, I think, I could stand to be corrected on this, round about 400 votes for and Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, on a point possibly about 800 votes against. Now in or order, what would the hon. member our constituency, the sheading of Ayre, at who has just resumed his seat do in the present moment we have two members my particular case? 1 put it to the electorate elected. The hon. member for Middle has at the last election in my manifesto, spoke been criticised on his stand but I support an on every public platform and at every public awful lot of what he said this morning. meeting, that I was in favour of single-seat do think that the people in a dual-seat constituencies. constituency get better representation than they do in the single-seat constituency for The Governor: Hon. member, I do not see the simple fact that the people who are the that that is a point of order. voters, and let us not forget, as I said earlier, Mr. Lowey: He did pose the question, sir. how we come to be here, we must not push aside the electorate, they are the people Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I share who are putting in their representatives in the view expressed by the hon. member for the House of Keys. They have the right to Ayre that, in fact, if the hon. member wants say whether or not they accept the prin- to put it that way I would not mind a ciple that they should have one member, referendum on it and I think he would be

Representation of the People—Debate Concluded. T898 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 very surprised at the result of it. As far as that if you always oppose the hon. member single-seat constituencies are concerned, 1 for Council, Mr. MacDonald, you will not think there probably is some injustice but be far wrong. (Laughter.) However, on this it is injustice to the single-seat constituency occasion I have given the matter great because if I do not like, shall I say, the thought and, as the hon. Chairman of hon. member for Castletown, 1 live in Executive Council, the one with the small Castletown, I have no alternative but to go `c', has urged us all to make our views to her and this sort of thing does occur. known, I feel 1 must also do that. It had There are people who come from, other been put to me when I first was discussing constituencies to me over problems because this problem with some of my colleagues, they would not go to the party who at that when 1 was very much the new boy in this time represented them and I do think that Court, and I said then that I was in favour it gives a wider divergence of opinion. I of single-seat constituencies and my friend remember very well, we had, m.y colleague in a multi-seat constituency said to me, you and myself, support from two members of have got what you want, I have got it the the same family working for us during the Nay I want it, what are you on about? But election and they both said, we have a very with a little reluctance I do have to say that different point of view expressed by these my sincere view is that, of the various two members and I believe that we will be alternatives, a single-seat constituency, I better represented by these two people who think, is the best and fairest. It could be arc not exactly alike than two who share that the voters do not like the person that exactly the same point of view and I think is elected to represent them. They might not they had a valid point there. 1 know some like all three of the people. Some people might say one would cancel the other out. do not like anybody, it is the luck of the Mr. Cringle quoted what I said here some draw, but I really see no reason why one considerable time ago when the matter was voter should be able to marshal] the mentioned by the member for Douglas West resources of, say, three very able people to previously, the only one way in which we advance their cause in this Chamber, plus, can be exactly fair to everybody is the whole possibly, a little assistance from our friends of the Isle of Man voting for 24 persons in the Legislative Council when another on a preferential vote where you put them voter has to rely on the puny efforts of in order and the one who gets number just one member and I think this is the three, his votes when the other fellow does deciding factor as far as I am concerned. not need them if they get a certain amount, My only fear, and possibly one reason why they go back to them. That is the only way was a little reluctant to speak on this, is that you can really be fair to anyone and that if we do establish this Commission, if somebody is suggesting that. I would be and with a little reluctance I will be voting prepared to stand with it. There is no other for it, if we do establish this Commission, way where you can get an exact amount and God forbid they come out to recom- of people voting for one constituency on mend multi-seat constituencies, do I find geographical boundaries. There is no way myself swallowed up in Ayre or Glenfaba? in which that can be done. I was not going Either thought is a very sorry one. I do to say anything but as the hon. Mr. Acting- think that from time to time, and it would Speaker said, we had better express a appear that the statutory quarter century viewpoint in case it goes to a Commission has now elapsed, we should look at our so that they could look at the sort of thing constitutional systems. By all means let us that might be considered and that is the do that now. only thing I want to say about it at this stage. Certainly in my area there is no Mr. Quinney: Your Excellency, the terms demand for it and those are the people of the resolution, with the principle of one who put me here and I know what I have man one vote I am all in agreement and got to go for. I do not think that that is any news to the members of this hon. Court. Single-seat Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I constituencies, although it is not declared had intended to oppose this resolution, partly in the second part of the resolution as the on what I think is a very sound principle terms of reference, to my mind it does

Representation of the People—Debate Concluded. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T899

indicate that to give one man one vote is, Keys does not permit of party politics in in effect, single-seat constituencies. The the sense which we understand it across in hon. member for Middle indicated there is the United 'Kingdom where there is a party no mandate. Of course there is no mandate, in Government and a party in opposition nobody has ever asked about it. The Labour and the present constitution does not do Party has always put it in the manifesto. that. As I say, in the present areas where Can you say to all the people who vote for there are single-seat constituencies it has not the Labour Party, there is a mandate for proved that it would introduce party single-seat constituencies? I do not think so. politics. It was mentioned by the member But I can say from experience, I have clone from Rushen that multiple constituencies sick votes in Middle on two occassions and give more representation or better repre- Middle is one of the constituencies which sentation in the Keys and a wider viewpoint. gets a teriffic number of sick votes. Maybe 1. do not agree with that. Who says it does? it is that the persons who stand for the E depends upon the people who are elected. ,constituency ensure that it is a good return f do not mind them having their own ideas for the people who cannot go along to vote that they are better than anybody else but but as a person who has done sick votes let us be perfectly frank, the people who are it is surprising the number of times people elected can he as good as anybody else in will ask you who the candidates are, this Legislature. Compulsory voting was especially the older people, how many do I mentioned. Well, if compulsory voting was vote for? As a justice of the peace in such introduced it would certainly bring about circumstances you are impartial. You give various changes but I am afraid that if that them, the information but in the last election was introduced or considered by a Com- I was asked a number of times, can I vote mission, then you would have to come to for only one? I personally feel that single- the issue of proportional representation but seat constituencies do reflect a better issue think. the single transfer of votes is the for the individual. It stops complications. best method to get an opinion of the people. It will also stop this plump voting because Mandates, well I may go with the hon. I can say again, from experience, doing sick member for Ayre and say, right, let us have votes, that a reference has been made to a referendum. That is one way where you me, when a certain person has come along would find out what the people feel as to and when I have said they have one or two whether there should he single-seat con- or three, or whatever, they can vote for stituencies. My own opinion is this, I shall one, two or three, they would say, oh well, be voting for the resolution and I hope the there arc certain advantages, you can vote mover of the resolution will give to the for me. Well this, you know, this is the sort Court the terms of reference which he feels of thing that I looked at, that the people the Commission should look into. He has are confused. They may vote for one, two indicated that it should be an independent or three and it is factual that it is not a Commission but, in my opinion, the only fair representation. It has been said that you democratic method for the people to vote cannot divide the area under single-seat by having one man, one vote. constituencies. You cannot take the present The Governor: Do you wish to reply, sir? constituencies and divide them into single- seat constituencies. There might be a Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, before problem in one or two but when it comes I start, I am very sorry today that for what is really a constitutional issue affecting all to Ramsey and Garff and Middle and the people of the Island we did not get a Rushen, I do not think there is any pro- bigger turn out in the House and I am blem. I do not even think there is any very sorry that the sheading of Garff is not problem in Glenfaba or Ayre. I do not think represented at all this afternoon. This, to there is any problem in redistributing the me, is rather unfortunate. It is also unfor- boundaries within the sheadings to give tunate that the principal town of the Island them single-seat constituencies in North should only have half its representatives Douglas, Michael, Castletown, Peel. I did here today because, once again, I feel on not see it introducing any party politics. a constitutional issue such as this we are, as The constitution of the present House of members of Tynwald, expected by our

Representation of the People—Debate Concluded. T900 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 electorate to be here. Having said that, hon. member accepts this. There is an what I. would like to explain is, I do not injustice. think any member of this Court, and one Mr. Anderson: Make them plural. member did say this, that he could not vote Well, making them for part (1). Now part (I) is a thing that Mr. MacDonald: plural means increasing the size of this Tynwald Court has already accepted. We House unless something is done about the have adhered to the United Nations Charter entire organisation and I think 24 members and the Convention of the United Nations, is ample. It has lasted well over the years whether we were asked to at the time or and 1 think it is ample. How we use these not, as with another thing we dealt with 24 members, how we overload them is a earlier this week, certainly the Isle of Man problem we ourselves must settle and we has accepted this and this is one of the do tend today to overload ourselves, but I fundamentals of the United Nations Charter do not think this is a problem for constitu- and I do not think by voting for this we are tional debate. I also think that people in doing anything that is wrong at all. What multi-seat 'constituencies, he did mention the I am saying is, they adhere to the United difference between multi- and single-seat Nations Charter, the European Community constituencies voting patterns. I do think in and British ideal of one man one vote for multi-seat constituencies people throw votes one representative in all elections and I did away. They will give the man they like a go on to say, and other representative authorities. The reason I put that in is, as vote and they do not mind what they do with the other two quite often, and you the hon. Mr. Acting-Speaker said this after- could have a situation where the man who noon, surely it is quite wrong in this day ha!, pulled all the throw-away votes tops the and age for properties to be given the vote. poll. Does that mean that he is the man This is the very thing which has created in that really everybody wanted as the number our neighbouring island such a terrible one candidate? He is not, quite often. He situation today. I had a friend over there can top the poll quite easily and it is no who had a vote in every constituency good nudging your colleague over there — because he owned a bit of property and (laughter)-- that is not how he got his this resulted in an imbalance of power in votes. Mr. Anderson did also mention, 1. the Northern Ireland Assembly. 'This was am going backwards on this, but Mr. the very thing which, in the end, the Anderson did mention that he thought we British Government decided was one reason could possibly have a referendum, so did for abolishing the actual Northern Ireland the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Percy Assembly and it is very important indeed Radcliffe. Referanda, to me, are not that we do not get into this situation. I government. They are not good government, think, Tynwald having accepted for itself they are final resort things. I think it is up the right of one man, one vote, for elections, to the elected representatives to make or rather having accepted that property decisions, not to run back every time they voting, plural voting was abolished for Keys cannot make their minds up, because after elections, I think Tynwald would .be quite all, as Edmund Burke said, we are not here right to agree that this should be abolished as delegates, we are here as representatives for local elections. I think it is only fair. to listen to debate, to listen to reason and do things in the name of the people, There may be members here who would honestly and fairly and justly in the name disagree with that, but I think that is a of the people. We are not sent here as principle we should adhere to. The United delegates of any pressure group, any Nations did not specifically say for national individual group or any particular group in elections, it said for elections, and local our own community. We are sent here to elections are just as important to the people weigh things up and make decisions on what as are national elections. Now, Your Excel- we believe, and honestly believe, in our lency, if I could go over what individual own minds is fair and right for all the members have said, Mr. Anderson says that people, not just the people of our own with single-seat constituencies there is constituency, for all the people of the Isle injustice. This is what T am saying. The of 'Man. The hon. member for Ayre said

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that seven people stood for Michael. Well, Mr. Anderson: You have not got older you know, this is the people's right. If 50 either. people want to stand it is their right to Mr. MacDonald: I am getting older, yes, stand. It is their right as long as they get but ever since childhood I have believed, the right number of people to sign their and 1 was brought up in the city of Peel paper, to come forward and stand. The to believe—I hope it is going to be a city more the better. It would mean, of course, again—but I was brought up in the city you can get these peculiar patterns arising of Peel to believe that the only fair way where you could have, I think he quoted a of holding an election for anybody is to give man with 400 votes who got in in Michael every man complete equality in voting and 800 people voted against him. So what? rights. I remember listening as a small child He was the man who topped4he poll, he was to the late Christopher Shimmin and Mrs. the man who got in. If there were seven Shim min. standing, well, I presume the bottom man must have got about 10, so they definitely A Member: Good Labour people. were not wanting him, and all the others remember, none of them got sufficient to Mr. MacDonald: They were Labour be- beat him, so he was the elected representa- cause they were against the other side and tive of those people, the man at the top of the only other party they could join at the the poll. I do not see how you can alter time was the Labour Party. They were good that even if you have 10-seat constituencies. Labour members, I suppose, but they were I do not think it would make any difference. very good and they represented Peel with That depends entirely upon the number of no problems at all and they were very men standing and that is the people's right. popular with the Peel people and they As to whether the people of the Isle of always said in Peel, one man, one vote, and Man want' to work on a party system, well, this was the battle cry after the First World that is their right again, if they wish to War when they stood. Well, my good friend, group together. Now let us not believe that Mr. Catlin, 1 think lie is a bit reactionary parties do not exist without names. Parties at times. He says that he believes in do exist without names. Groups of people democracy but I doubt that. (Laughter.) can get together and work together for a think he believes in democracy when it is common cause without labelling themselves the right sort of democracy which Mr. and we often see this. Interests quite often Callin likes, but we do not all necessarily draw people together. Interests usually draw agree with everytthing Mr. Callin says, any people together where they have a common more than you all agree with what I say. interest but they need not declare them- Having said that he agrees with democracy selves a party. If I could turn now. Your he says that he is against this resolution. Excellency, to the hon. Mr. Acting-Speaker. Well, that I just cannot fit together. I thank him for his support. He is quite cannot believe that a man could be against right, it is a quarter of a 'century since the this resolution and believe in democracy last, or just on a quarter of a century, a because that is what it is all about. 1 do long time ago, almost a generation ago, not think that you really need a mandate. when this was last looked at. All the more Hon. members of this Court do not need a reason I think today that we should have a mandate from the people on this particular Commission to have another look at this. issue today. 1 do not think we have to go I also remember Mr. Speaker, who un- back and call a horde of public meetings to fortunately is absent this afternoon, saying decide on this. We know ourselves only too that it was his vote at that time that swung clearly what the right vote is on this issue. the balance in the last redistribution of I do not wish to 'have again this nonsense seats in the Isle of Man. 1 could not help of country versus town. I think it is wrong. but think to myself that, of course, at that do not think that any community can time he was against the establishment and afford this today, and I see this quite often this time he is on the top of it. You know, arising. I think it is wrong but what is as you get older your views change, but my happening is that the people of the towns, views have never changed from childhood and I may as well be quite open and fair on the right of an individual ... about this, they definitely believe they are

Representation of the People—Debate Concluded.

T902 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 not getting a fair crack of the whip. They to proportional representation, which Mr. do not think they have got fair representa- Kneale mentioned — unfortunately he is not tion. It was said by one member that, of here -- but I have no hard and fast views on course, East Douglas is falling, but East proportional representation. I would hope Douglas is falling only to 3,413 voters. It that if this Commission is appointed, Your has not got down below the 2,000 even now. Excellency, it could look at this. 1 think it It could be adjusted, possibly, but certainly is worth looking at. The whole of Europe East Douglas is not down to the level of has proportional representation and, in fact, other constituencies which have two mem- as one member did say today, the Liberal bers, nowhere near them. In fact, one con- Party, unfortunately for the Liberal Party stituency has almost half of what East in England, and we must all look at this, Douglas has got, so East Douglas is not all they do not seem to have in England the right that unjustified in having two members at representation for the mass of people that the moment. Mr. Walker said, one man, vote for them at every election, so perhaps one vote per constituency is not as good this Commission, and I think they should, as where one man has three votes. Well, will look at the possibilities of introducing I accept that where a man has three votes proportional representation in the Isle of he is far better off. He is hound to get Man as well. They can look at it, they may somebody he likes. It is a bookmaker's vote reject it, they may give us ideas on it. As that one to me. I am certain if Benny I say, my mind is open on this. The reason Howarth was here he would take odds on 1 was rather vague on number (2) was that these. You know, any three out of nine, I. ani quite prepared to leave, and I believe any three out of 10, anybody can get in. in Executive Council, I believe, having sat on it, Executive Council works well. It is A Member: Six or seven will not. not the fault of Executive Council that things go wrong, it is because quite often Mr. MacDonald: I still think that Mr. Executive Council know that the things they Walker in his real heart of hearts, and as are trying to do will not be accepted by the he has got close connections with Peel today opposition and opposition develops for no he will realise--(laughter and interruptions) reason at all, quite often, to quite good - - but 1 do believe, Your Excellency, that moves the Executive Council recommends. even Mr. Walker can see the honesty and In other words, they have never got a the justice in what I am proposing today. guarantee and without a party system they Sir John Bolton, well, as somebody said will never have a guarantee that what they yesterday, Sir John is the greatest of all put forward will be acceptable either to the reactionaries. He is not, actually. I find at Keys, the Council or Tynwald sitting to- times he can be very fair and I hope he can gether and so I was quite prepared to leave be fair today. (Laughter.) I think the prob- it to His Excellency in Executive Council to lem that he once had is still there. He did appoint this Commission of Inquiry. After help to solve a problem a while ago but all, the Executive Council we believe repre- things have altered in the 25 years. He may sents the Keys and the Legislative Council, not think so, but I think he knows in his a group sitting together, and I am quite heart of hearts that it has and he had a lot prepared to accept their views on this. to do with it. In England I think the seats think they could appoint a Commission of are rigged by the parties. This is one of the Inquiry. I thought to myself at one time. big problems of party government and that and I mentioned it earlier on, Your Excel- is that seats are rigged when parties are in lency, preferably, if we believe that Manx- power. They regularly, over there, adjust boundaries and they adjust boundaries to men are capable of sorting their own prob- suit themselves and you do get some terrible lems out, well, let the Commission be Manx. differences in voting powers in the various but if Executive Council think, no, it is constituencies of England but at least in better, and after all, as I say — (interruption) England you have one man one vote and — well, if they think no I am quite prepared they have single-seat constituencies, and to accept a Commission of Inquiry they seem to work well because no-one can brought in to look at our situation in the say that the British system is worse than Island. 1 am quite prepared to accept that. I any other system in Europe. With reference know the Manx people and 1 am one of

Representation of the People—Debate Concluded. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T903 them, and I know their views on their own Against: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, P. people doing things. They quite often will Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Callin and accept nothing that they themselves or their Watterson 6. own people have recommended but fall over The Acting-Speaker: Your Excellency, the backwards to accept what other people have motion has been carried in the House of recommended to them. It will in the end, Keys, 11 votes being cast in favour and of course, be up to Tynwald to decide six against. when this comes back, and this is the im- portant thing, it will be up to Tynwald. In In the Council— winding up now, I do believe that having For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Moore looked at the present set-up in the Island, and MacDonald — 3. the constituencies, the breakdown of the Against: Sir John Bolton, Messrs. Crellin, constituencies, I believe myself that there is Kerruish and Simcocks — 4. a very urgent need to have a look at this now. I do not believe in waiting until the The Governor: In the Council, three in election. This has always been the argument, favour and four aginst. That part of the wait until the next election. The time to look motion therefore fails to carry. I will now at this is half-way through, before the next put the second part of the motion. Those election. Let us get the decision made so in favour please say aye; against, no. that the candidates going into the next elec- A division was called for and voting tion and the public of the Island clearly resulted as follows:— know what Tynwald thinks is the right way In the Keys— to go and they vote accordingly. This is the time to do it. I have been now 15 years in For: Messrs. J. J. Radcliffe, Lowey, the Keys and in the Council recently, and Cringle, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Quinney, what is always said at the beginning of Ward, Irving, Kermeen, Dr. Moore and every session is we have got to wait a bit Mr. Swales -- 10. until the new boys have settled down. When Against: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, P. we get half-way through they say, what is Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Callin, the use of doing anything now, we will have Watterson and Walker — 7. to wait until the next election, and so The Acting-Speaker: Your Excellency, the nothing takes place. I hope the Court will motion has been carried in the House of accept what I am moving today. I hope that Keys, 10 votes being cast in favour and there will be a majority of Tynwald in seven votes against. favour of this and 1 hope that the outcome of this will be a Commission with recom- In the Council— mendations which can possibly take us For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Crellin, forward for another quarter of a century, Moore and MacDonald —4. and 1 beg to move. Against: Sir John Bolton, Messrs. Kerruish The Governor: Do you wish to have the and Simcocks — 3. question put in two parts, sir? The Governor: in the Council, four in favour and three against. The second part Mr. MacDonald: Yes, please, Your of the motion therefore carries. Excellency. The Governor: I will put the first part of the question, hon. members. Those in favour ENERGY CONSERVATION please say aye; aginst, no. — MOTION AMENDED AND APPROVED. A division was called for and voting The Governor: Item number 31. The hon. resulted as follows:— member for Castletown, Mrs. Quayle. In the Keys— Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, 1 beg to For Messrs. J. J. Radcliffe, Lowey, Walker, move:— Cringle, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Quinney, Having the world energy situation in Ward, Irving, Kermeen, Dr. Moore and mind, Tynwald is of the opinion that urgent Mr. Swales —11. action should be taken to implement energy-

Energy Conservation—Motion Amended and Approved. T904 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 eon.serving measures. namely in the short- of property on this Island both in the public term: and private sectors, to the fact that they (1) the introduction of a major public must start taking steps this summer to information programme on the insulation of insulate their premises thermally if they existing buildings and homes: want to be warm, at a reasonable price next (2) the establishment of energy advice winter. With Government aid and with centres where consumers can obtain infor- Government showing the way, the public mation on the wisest use of energy to suit should be shown how energy could and their particular circumstances: should be saved by wise use of fuel in home, (3) the introduction at the July sitting of office and factory. If Government is not Tynwald by the Loral Government Board of prepared to invest sufficient money in a grant-aid scheme for both householders insulating premises and it turns out to be and Local .,4 tithor.:ties for the insulation of a cold winter, then many of the less well-off houses in their ownership during the are going to face, as it were, a statutory summ er months; freeze. A pensioner I gave a lift to yesterday (4) a detailed in vestigation of the energy morning illustrates the problem. Living in used in all Government buildings with a an all-electric one-bedroomed flat in Anagh view to reductions in consumption. and in the long-term. in order to promote Cear, her annual bill for electricity last year a low energy strategy, that: was in the region of just over £155. This ( 1) the Island's building standards be year it will obviously be more. At present reviewed: she is physically well enough to be able to supplement her income but the crunch for (2) the Tynwald Select Committee on her and many more will come when the fuel Indigenous Power Sources he requested to further examine the design of super-insulated bill takes too high a proportion of the housing end the design of housing estates income. Obviously, the less well-off would that' maximise energy conservation,. benefit from a reconsideration of the various (3) the Select Committee on Population tariffs. Under the present tariffs, the smaller b' asked to consider the temporary halting one's consumption of fuel, the more one of further industrial growth. pays. This morning I got a revised Manx This is my Sheik Yamani "Save It" resolu- gas tariff on my breakfast table and apart tion. This resolution is largely a cry for from the increases in standing charges and, urgent action now, this side of the recession, of course, the increases in units, the mini- on the recommendations of the indigenous mum consumption charge per quarter, if Power Sources Committee. These recom- you did not have the minimum consumption mendations were accepted by this hon. Court you would have to pay an extra £2-50. I I months ago. It' I might make an overall feel that a reversal is now needed --a new comment, we live on a very windy island, tariff encouraging the consumer to use less nothing disperses heat faster than wind, and by reducing the cost to the lower user, also we live on an island where fuel costs whilst penalising the larger, and often are considerably higher than on the other wasteful, user. News of the promised electri- side and, therefore, in my opinion, we city rebate given to us by the Chairman of should be in the forefront of action. As the Finance Board was a helpful, but alas. members are aware, 90 per cent. of our very small step in the right direction. i now energy requirements are met by oil-based know that the Local Government Board is products and only 10 per cent. by solid fuel. intending to get together with the Finance am excluding fuel for transport. How Board and produce a finalised scheme, but tight the supply of oil is going to be this 1 understand this is not to he until October. winter on the Island is not known, but even Presumably, the Chairman of the Local if adequate supplies are maintained, the Government Board will be giving his rationing of fuel is going to be affected by reasons for what I consider to he a deplor- price. It is highly important to realise that able delay and I am hoping that he will when insulation levels are really good, agree, as in this resolution, to get this almost any form of energy is cheap enough business in front of us at the very next to be used for the general public, so the Tynwald. In any case, I think T had better purpose of this resolution is to waken up run through my recommendations quickly. those who are not already awake, the owners Numbers (I) and (2) go together. They arc

Energy Conservation--Motion Amended and Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T905

asking for information and publicity on the when they are open planned, so I hope means of saving fuel in the home and at giants will be extended to the provision of work and as the Local Government Board chimney stacks where feasible. Things that has so much on its plate, surely this could I understand possibly May 'be cut out which be made the province of the Consumer are available under the United Kingdom Council. Certainly, judging by the interest scheme worry me, and I hope thought will this resolution has raised among the general again be given to including them. There is, public, many people are no longer apathetic the efficient control of heating equipment. about energy conservation but they have no The only electronic control device on the idea how to set about cutting their fuel market has been installed in a number of bills. There is nobody available to give Manx homes and I am led to believe by the advice in the solving of their particular householders I have asked that this equip- pioblem. The United Kingdom Department mein has 'cut fuel bills for them, so I am of Energy, as part of its "Save It" cam- saying, can we not install one of these paign, already has in existence survey and devices in one of the many Government energy conservation schemes with grants buildings without any thermostatic control tied in, and most importantly home visits on its boiler so that we have proven facts are arranged and advice given on the best and figures on the fuel economies effected cost of effective heating for that house- and we can judge what this can do for us. holder's situation. This sort of home service The cost of installing one of these electronic is particularly needed on the Island because control devices is less than £300. The con- oi' the wide variation in fuel costs and situation of porches to internal doors is tariffs. I would point out that if your "Save another thing that I would have thought was It" target on the Island is 10 per cent., you imperative for us to think about. I would could theoretically be talking of savings in instance the Local Government Board Cooil the order of £900,000 in a year. An average Roy complex in Laxey. There are no home of four persons, taking parents and porches on the front doors and the front two children, 'burns 52 bags of coal and doors lead straight into the living rooms of 4,000 units of electricity and that bill comes these elderly persons and every time the to £350. If you are talking about 10 per front door is opened, out comes the heat. cent. saving of that £350, of course, it is Cavity walls and external walls, that I do £35, and £35 saved on one house means not know about. Double glazing, I am also roughly :El million saved on 15,000 homes, not aware how much that saves, but solar but f understand there are, in fact, about panels, f would have thought from yester- 29,000 homes on this Island. The third clay's, or at least I hope from yesterday's recommendation is the nub of the problem. discussion, possibly solar panels will be The Local Government Board proposals, as reconsidered. I do not know whether I understand it, include much that is members are aware that very recently there necessary but I do hope it will include social has been a break-through in America in centres and halls and the like and enable converting sunlight into electrical power them to qualify for financial aid since with and the claim is, and it has been in the the escalating price of fuel, and I am sure "New Scientist" and various other journals, we all heard what Sheik Yamani said this that in three or four years' time solar cells morning, that we had made trivial reduc- tions, I mean the whole of the Western will be able to 'compete price-wise with fossil world, but the possibility of oil prices being and nuclear fuels. Back to my recommenda- tripled or quadrupled is very possible, and if tions. Number (4), detailed investigation of this happens, with the escalating price of the energy used in all Government buildings. fuel, one can envisage many people being This speaks for itself. I think it has been unable to afford to heat their homes for brought up in this Court a number of times 16 hours out of the 24 during the coldest that Government must set an example in months and thought may well have to be energy conservation. I would say that I have given to providing warmth in 'community received a number of letters and telephone halls and clay centres throughout the Island. calls from ordinary members of the public Problems also are going to face people begging me to see that the wastage of living in houses without fireplaces, especially heating in schools, offices and elsewhere is

Energy Conservation—Motion Amended and Approved. T906 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 stopped. Now, in the long-term recommen- means extra persons needing housing, and dation, number (1) suggests that the Island's each extra person requires an infra-structure building standards be reviewed. of additional services. Therefore, it can be said that one extra work permit means an The Governor: Could 1 interrupt the hon. increase in energy consumption far in excess member and suggest that we call these (5), of the needs of a single home. In the wider (6) and (7). We already have (1), (2), (3) and perspective, looking at industry, inflationary (4) on the Agenda. The last three numbers, spiralling of costs in the United Kingdom, (I), (2) and (3), are likely to be duplicated and the had effect this is likely to have on with the first (1), 2), (3), (4). Can they not the United Kingdom economy, inevitably be numbered (5), (6) and (7)? will, I fear, be reflected on this Island. We Mrs. Quayle: Yes, Your Excellency. do not want to be carrying any extra unemployed on our books if these unem- The Governor: It does not make much ployed people have been brought over and sense as it stands, so now we know what are not really our responsibility, so what you are referring to. 1 am really advocating is that we should Mrs. Quayle: Number (5), that the Island's batten down our industrial hatches at the building standards be reviewed. I. do not present, until we can see how things are know what the present British bye-laws are going to go under the new Government in but I do beg that the Local Government Westminster. I beg to move. Board or anybody else looking into this Mr. Lowey: I bee to second. I will not should not simply look at Britain. The reserve my remarks, I will be brief. 1 believe Continentals have long been amazed at our the hon. member for Castletown who is low standards and I was interested to read moving this resolution is attempting a very in "The Observer" recently that our simple exercise, an exercise to galvanise building standards make foreigners laugh so Government opinion to the dangers that are 1 hope we will think Continental on this with us now. They are not round the corner occasion. Number (6) refers to the Tynwald any more, they are here, now. I think she Select Committee on Indigenous Power has a great difficulty on her hands because Sources, asking them further to examine the I feel people, and Government, believe it design of super-insulated housing. 1 do not not, is serviced by people, of the western know whether members realise that there is world do not believe that the energy crisis a super-insulated house being built in is anything but a passing hic-cough, and in Saskatchewan, where it is twice as cold as trying to get the reality of the situation over Britain, and it costs only 31 dollars, that is to Government as well as people she has to approximately £15 a year, to 'heat, or if you overcome some mighty mountains. 1 believe "ant to look at Britain, they have managed the mood abroad, not only in the Govern- to space heat a house, a two-bedroomed ment but within the people of the Isle of terraced house in Salford, by direct electri- Man, is that appertaining in the Board room city for about £60 or indirect space heating on board the "Titanic" just before she hit for £30, so it can be done. The other part the iceberg. You know, it could not happen of number (6), the design of super-insulated to us, and if it does happen to us we are housing and the design of housing estates in an unsinkable craft. T believe what the that maximise energy conservation. Again, hon. member for Castletown is saying is there are several examples of the layout that before the winter she wants some planned to make maximum use of passive immediate action. I must confess that T am energy, in other words, sunlight, and the rather surprised that 1 have not seen any obvious example that everybody knows is at campaign by the Manx Government, I- have Basildon. They have managed to reduce not seen any Government policy declared on energy needs by 40 per cent. by careful energy conservation in any way, shape or planning at very little extra cost. Finally, form. We have, at this moment in time, in number (7), the Select Committee on the past fortnight, seen petrol charges, for Population be asked to consider the tempo- example, go up 14 pence a gallon; 10 pence rary halting of further industrial growth. because of decisions taken elsewhere and I have included this because additional four pence added on by the local garages industry brought to the Island inevitably to meet their increased costs and overheads.

Energy Conservation--Motion Amended and Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T907

That is almost three shillings in old money. here, the radiation method, is, cost-wise, the Coal will be going up by something in the most expensive method of conservation. region of 20 pence a sack on 1st July with Hon. members do not seem to be aware that another massive increase due in October since this has happened the Board has and November. This is now the time when transformed completely the building bye- we should be taking every means, every laws so that the walls are insulated and the step available to us, to broadcast and make roofs are insulated. We are now looking at people aware. Government should be leading the possibility of floor insulation even in not following and this, I believe, is the concrete floors with about an inch of v✓hole basis of Mrs. Quayle's resolution. insulating material in the middle of the believe that it needs support. I believe she concrete. You see, way back before my has clone a major service to the Isle of Man time, you take the buildings at the Hope. b} drawing attention to it. I know it is a those are completely built with thermal long resolution. Perhaps it has too much block. Everybody now has got to use this detail in it, but I think the underlying sort of building material for this specific message is one of conservation and of facing purpose. Again, the next resolution before the problems now, not waiting until next this hon. Court is from another department. winter when I honestly do believe that for My Vice-Chairman is involved in a very a lot of people it will be too late. good scheme of utilising heat. We hope, on Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I am sure the Local Government Board, to become everyone rocognises and appreciates the involved with another scheme in relation to concern for energy conservation expressed refuse disposal which will have a community by the hon. member. I am pleased to inform heat effectiveness, and we are looking at the Court that in accordance with part 3(b) these very, very seriously, but we do not of the resolution passed at the sitting of want to jump in and make the wrong Tynwald on 19th October 1977, the Local decision. There are proven ways and this Government Board, after detailed investiga- report will show that, and as soon as tion of the problem, has produced a report we can get the concurrence of Finance on energy conservation in dwellings and Board ... We meet on Friday, and if we non-residential premises. This report, which can get it to the Finance Board very is the final discussion in draft form, covers quickly, maybe even in a declaratory form, fully or in part points (I), (2), (3) and (4) something could be done even in advance of the motion. It is expected that the report of the oncoming winter. The motive behind will be submitted to Tynwald in October. the hon. member's resolution do not We hoped we could get it for July, but this disagree at all. We have done major work will depend very largely on discussions with on this, as 1 say, and it just coincides with the Finance Board because, as you are the fact that the hon. member has come aware, Your Excellency, we are having forward at this point with this resolution, across the table discussions on this at the and 1 hope that this document, if we can moment and there is some disagreement get the concurrence of the Finance Board between us, because there are financial to its contents, will be acceptable, and I feel implications here and Finance Board have that it can go a long way towards resolving not had the opportunity to go into this in some of the problems. The only aspect of detail. We have given the hon. member for it that does not concern us is in relation to Castietown a confidential copy of the report the development of industry, and again I and we hope that that will be brought have some sympathy with the hon. member. forward to the Finance Board as soon as I have always contended that as far as possible. I know the hon. member has industry is concerned, we only want suffi- criticised our Board for not getting this out cient industry to occupy our own school- sooner, but we have had to consult with a leaving population, or re-training those who lot of people and it is so easy to come up have not already got jobs. I do not think with a report that is not accurate and if a we want industry to import people in. But, Board of Tynwald comes out with a report nevertheless, we have got to have a fairly it has got to be a report that can stand on its forward looking plan and this is where I own account, and the report will eventually feel there has been a great deal of co- show that, in fact, the method mentioned operation with the Board of Education to

Energy Conservation—Motion Amended and Approved. 1'908 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979

know who is going to be looking for job the hon. member of the Council. But there opportunities, not only this year 'but at the is one comment I would like to make in end of next year, so that the Industrial general terms with reference to this resolu- Advisory office can plan the measure of tion and for many other resolutions. When extension of industry that is required to we consider our Budget at times we have give job opportunities to our own people often over the last two or three years leaving school. I feel that the hon. member emphasised the point that we are saying, let can be patient until the July Tynwald. If us cut down our direct taxation and let us the members of Finance Board can help us leave as much money as possible in the to cover one or two hurdles we might even consumers' or the producer of the economy's get the document in front of you for the pocket. It rather amazes me at times to July sitting. listen to the comments being made by hon. Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I fully members in this hon. Chamber in reference support Mrs. Quayle, the hon. member for to the poor people who cannot afford to do Castletown, in bringing this forward today. this, that, and the other. The other day we think it is urgent. We have possibly been read in the newspaper quite a lot about the dragging our feet on this. This is a lot to sudden increase in value added tax from 8 swallow, I must admit, in one resolution. per cent. to 15 per cent. What took me However, 1 do fully support her. There is aback at the time was the comment that was made by the general reports in the one thing, I think, accepting what the hon. Chairman of the Local Government Board newspaper that the people immediately has just said, and T do not think this is all rushed out and bought new motor cars, new that is involved in this resolution, what his washing-machines, new everything you could Board is doing. 1 believe that we have an think of, and T began to wonder, where is Indigenous Power Sources Committee and all this shortage of money that everybody on this we have the Chairman of the Water is saying people cannot afford? If we are and Gas Authority, the Electricity Board, going to follow a policy as a Government the Industrial Council, and the Speaker of where we are saying, let us cut our taxes, the House of Keys, and I feel that really, to let the people keep the money, and then on get quick action, what we want is that this the other hand we are going to go on and entire resolution be passed, and I would say, let us give everybody grants and loans like to move this as an amendment, that to insulate their houses to retain the heat the whole of this resolution be referred to within them, surely there must be a certain the Local Government Board and the amount of personal responsibility that people Indigenous Power Sources Committee for have got to carry. Many years ago the consideration urgently, and to report as saying used to be, we are featherbedding soon as possible to this Court. the farmers. To me, at the present moment I do not know whether we are featherbed- Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, just one ding the farmers or whether we are not, point here. T think we should be grateful to but I think we are spoon-feeding an awful Mrs. Quayle for bringing this energy situa- lot of people who today should face up to tion to our notice, but there is one item a certain amount of their own responsibility. here which I think at the present time 1 They cannot have it both ways. Even the cannot accept, and that is that the Select hon. member of the Local Government Committee On Population he asked to con- Board says that he hopes it will come before sider the temporary halting of further the Finance Board very shortly for certain industrial growth. In the next resolution that further recommendations. My opinion may comes forward —and T am pre-empting this be different from a lot of other members — my Chairman will be talking about in this hon. Court, but I certainly believe industrial growth from waste heat. This is in making people consider using their money a by-product of electricity, of course, but 1 as it should be responsibly used. You want think if we accept this now that we are to travel round the Isle of Man today ... going to halt all industrial growth, it may would not say there was any scarcity of be very detrimental to our cause in Peel. money. You go to every hotel car park you Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, T beg will visit at the weekend and you will find to second the amendment put forward by them packed full of motor cars. Everyone

Energy Conservation—Motion Amended and Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T909

in the Isle of Man, they have plenty of had to pay so much for her electricity bill. money for certain things but they have no This is one of the facets of this which money to come forward and say, I can interests me most. Quite rightly, as the insulate my own house because in insulating Chairman of Finance Board says, when we my own house I find that I can save LX talked about value added tax there was a on my electricity bill, my gas bill, or what- certain rush by people to buy the com- ever it may be. So you spend a certain modities which they thought were going to ?mount of money of your own and by doing be in short supply, or the commodities that you get back a saving in another which were going to go up. I do not know capacity. But here, nearly every resolution whether the Chairman of Finance Board that comes before us says, you do as you recognises this, but there are still a great think, you spend your money on any many people in the Isle of Man who could frivolity you think fit yourself and the not rush out to buy a packet of crisps if Government will give you money to insulate they were due to be affected by value added your house and to retain your heat. Let us tax. These are the sort of people we are get responsible government, let us get the talking about and I hope these are the sort people educated that they have got to accept of people Mrs. Quayle has got at the back responsibility themselves. I will be looking of her mind. I do not know whether you very closely at any recommendation that have experienced it or not, but there are a comes forward to say that we have got to few people in here that I would like to drive provide all this money for grants and loans round to certain places. During the coldest to do all this insulation, because if we do part of last winter you would see an old not call a halt some day we are going to lady sitting with her coat and her muffler find that we will be financing every project on and a one-bar tire, and no amount of that comes into this hon. Court. experts are going to come from any con- The Governor: May I make the point, hon. sultation office and tell her, well, the best members, that we have a motion before the thing you can do is to cut it down. So. Court that the resolution should be referred therefore, I would hope that in the whole of to the Indigenous Powers Committee for this resolution there is contained some sort consideration and report at the earliest of commonsense, and 1 hope the Local convenience. Would you please confine your Government Board will look at it with this speeches at this juncture to this proposal. view. Do not let me be interrupted by some- body who says, well, they have got supple- Mr. Ward: I have no objection to that, mentary allowance of course. A bag of coal Your Excellency, the whole resolution being at this time ... Perhaps a lot of you people referred to the Local Government Board. I do not buy coal by the bag, but it has gone am particularly sorry that the Chairman of to over £3 a bag. Take that out of her Finance Board has seen fit on this particular supplementary. The idea that people have resolution to come out with one of his out- been put in local authority 'houses, fair bursts of finance-itis (Interruption.) Well, enough, and they are confined to the one fair enough. I have a way-out theory that system of heating which has proved an maybe Government finance is the same as everywhere else, that when the money has absolute failure for the sort of people we accumulated it should be distributed at least are worried about. Some of them have got for the good of the people who accumulated meters in private property, but certainly not it. Fair enough, and I know we have all got in local authority houses. They cannot use to be realistic. I do not need anybody to tell the meters and therefore they have got to me that. In •the first place, I would like to be extra careful or they set up a terrific congratulate the member for Castletown. I bill they just cannot meet. There are still think whatever she has attempted to do in a great many people who have to face this this resolution has been very timely. Last sort of situation. I would like to think that winter, I think you will agree, was one of the Local Government Board would advise the most bitter winters we have experienced local authorities with regard to their proper- for quite a good many years. I was par- ties, first of all to try and do away with a ticularly impressed with one of the items in lot of the properties such as have been her opening remarks where she said she confined to one particular type of heating gave a lift to a lady from Anagh Coar who which people just cannot afford and, in the

Energy Conservation—Motion Amended and Approved.

T9I0 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 second place, if they do advise them, do not aware that there are some who do get up advise them on some sort of coal system very early, but if we are talking about which puts the price of the fuel right out saving energy we have to talk about the of their reach. Let us- go-back, it might he majority, and the vast majority of people a step back, some people might consider it do not get benefit of the daylight during a step back, I do not know, but let us get the back-end and certainly in the early back to ordinary sort of heating. I think spring. quite rightly, as Mrs. Quayle said, the doom talk by the "Sheik of Araby" this week has Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I trust made it more imminent that we should be that speaking to the amendment you will aware of these things, and that the Local still give me the facility under Standing Government Board and every authority, the Order 87 to comment on the substantive electricity people and everybody, should be motion. I would certainly have preferred the looking at this because God knows what hon. member for Castletown to have next winter is going to mean if it is half confined this declaratory resolution to the as severe as last winter for a great many first two lines. "Tynwald is of the opinion of these people. I think the resolution, that urgent action should be taken to imple- whether we try to break it up or down or ment energy-conserving measures ..." be- crossways, I think the spirit of the resolu- cause by restricting it, and T think it is tion is very timely, and I think we should restricted by detailing what she considers bo all happy to support it. the short-term measures, we are avoiding other forms of energy-saving and I think, Mr. Catlin: Your Excellency, I, too, would specifically, of fuel for motor transport. like to congratulate the hon. member for Whether that will be rationed by price or Castletown in bringing forward this resolu- whether there will be a determined effort tion because T think it must be obvious to to have a 5 per cent. reduction in consump- everybody that the conservation of energy is tion, which is something which the United essential. I do not think anyone would deny States and, T think, most of western Europe that in the past energy has to some extent will have, if necessary, forced upon them. been taken for granted, and has to a wide we are going to find ourselves in great extent been wasted. There are just two difficulties over our transport. Your Excel- points that I would like to make towards lency, please rule me out of order if you this debate and the first is, the hon. member think so, but may I also mention something did speak about giving advice. I think the which will come as a moment of truth, if first place she wants to start to give advice not in this decade then in the next decade, is to Government Office itself because if and that is the decision as to what our power there is anywhere that wastes energy, T am, supply will be. This may seem strange sorry to say, it is Government Office, when coming from me because T have evinced you can sit in the waiting-room upstairs and my concern about Windsicale in this Court, have to take your coat off in the middle of but ultimately there will have to be a winter because it is too hot. That is where decision taken as to whether from wind we want to start to give our advice. The power — and I will not say which con- second point T want to make is, T would like stituency this comes from -- from solar to suggest that some consideration might be pcnker, from coal, from, oil or gas, is given to the retention or the extension of sufficient to meet even the minimum re- British Summer Time. In war time, if you quirements of energy, and we may have to remember. British Summer Time continued come to, as they say, our cake and milk right through. (Interruption.) Or even and say whether a small fast breeder double Summer Time, yes. Well, think reactor, nuclear reactor, is not going to be that something might be done in this respect ultimately the answer to our long-term because if one goes to October, November, needs in energy. lion members, whatever and the early part of the year, the vast you may think of the opinions voiced, majority of people are not up until long after think it is worthwhile reading a memoran- the sun comes up, and I believe myself that dum which has been circulated to me — a lot of energy could be saved if something do not know if it has been circulated to like this was done. (Interruption.) T other members—by the Borough Electrical

Energy Conservation—Motion Amended and Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T91 I

Engineer, "Our Needs and Realities", to- see that this energy policy gets going, and gether with a booklet on British nuclear personally I would have thought that the achievements. I would look to the In- Indigenous Power Sources Committee digenous Power Sources Committee, which should be re-named the Energy Committee. is a very high-powered Committee, under I beg to move. the Chairmanship of Sir Charles Kerruish, The Governor: I will first put the amend- to have extended its terms of reference to ment to the resolution which is that the deal with our energy requirements in the matter be referred to the Local Government long-term, and I do hope you, Your Excel- Board and the Indigenous Power Sources lency, and Mr. Acting-Speaker in his Committee for consideration and report at capacity as Chairman of Executive Council, the earliest opportunity. Its that agreed? might bring it to the attention of Executive Council, so that we have an agency of this It was agreed. hon. Court who will look at what will be, in the broad term., and comprehensively, a very grave problem to face in the 1980's. REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE The Governor: Do you wish to reply, —CLARIFICATION OF RESOLUTION. hon. member? The Governor: A problem arises, hon. Mrs. Quayle: Thank you, Your Excel- members, on the last resolution which we lency. I. would accept the amendment. If I passed. If you would refer to that, that is might just answer the hon. member for Item No. 30, as it reads now it says: West Douglas, Mr. Kermeen, yes, I agree "Tynwald requests His Excellency in Execu- this was too long, but I must point out that tive Council to appoint a Commission of we have already passed in this hon. Court Inquiry to investigate and report within one various resolutions and various recommenda- year on how the principle in (1) above can tions about energy conservation, particularly be implemented, thus ensuring ..." Well, about this building, and absolutely nothing the principle in paragraph (1) was not accep- has happened. I thank those members who ted by the Court, and so if lion. members have given me support, except the Chairman agree I suggest that it should appear in the of the Finance Board, and I think he has Votes and Proceedings as "the principle of already been — if I may say so — taken to ensuring that the Manx electorate ..." Is task by the hon. member for South Douglas. that agreed? Again, I would point out, only a proportion It was agreed. of people are rushing to buy cars, 'fridges, The Governor: 1 and I know pensioners who now cannot am sorry, I should have pointed that out at the time. afford to renew their aerials and are faced with having to do without television, Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your resolution does not say this. It was comprehensive. That is DISTRICT HEATING SCHEME what 1 object to. — MOTION AMENDED AND APPROVED. Mrs. Quayle: And may I say that if you only save 10 per cent. on the £200 recom- The Governor: Item number 32. I call on mended by the Indigenous Power Sources the hon. member for Council, Mr. Moore. Committee you will pay it back in 51 years. Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, I beg to On the supplementary pensions that some- move:— body mentioned, I think members should Tynwald is of the opinion that the threat realise in this hon. Court that if a man of a .verious energy crisis cannot be ignored, works to the age of 70, all honour to him, and, being aware of the undoubted success but he is then just above the supplementary of the Pilot District Heating Scheme pro- pension level, and that I think is important. moted by the Isle of Man Electricity Board Finally, before I sit down, I would have at its Peel Station, the Isle of Man Electri- thought if anything came out of this resolu- city Board be urged to proceed with Scheme tion and the ancillary matters that were No. 2 ar outlined by its Project Engineer with a view to providing district heating for brought up, an energy policy is needed for Peel Secondary School, Corrin Home, West- the Island and a co-ordinating committee to lands Complex and certain commercial

Representation of the People—Clarification of Resolution. — District Heating Scheme— Motion Amended and Approved. T9I2 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 enterprises, on the distinct understanding that at least you have given this considera- that the capital cost be borne by Central tion. The only thing I forgot to mention in Government, on the basis of an interest- the resolution when put it forward was free loan, repayable within 15 years. that it also takes in the Clothvvorkers' I do not intend to take up the whole of the School. So if you will assume that I am rest of the afternoon on this particular talking about a district heating scheme resolution because we are conserving energy which, going up over the hill as it would, and I know that we could spend a lot of will heat the Peel Secondary School, or the energy and a lot of heat on this particular Queen Elizabeth School, whichever name subject. I am not going to insult the you like to put on it, the Corrin Home, intelligence of this hon. Court by reading the Westlands complex and the Cloth- out everything which I have already issued workers' School. If you take the other point to them in a statement of what we have in that I made, that there were certain com- mind, because the only people who will be mercial enterprises on the distinct under- interested in whatever I say on this situation standing that capital cost be borne by are the members of this hon. Court. I am Central Government on the basis of an not a member of the Manx Nationalist interest-free loan, this is the only point on Party so I will not make any appeal to Manx which there could be any argument. On Radio to make a statement on my behalf! the scheme itself, it is perfectly obvious (Laughter.) I will get down to just exactly that if we are going to look into the 21st what we have in mind here, a straightfor- century we must look at schemes of this ward resolution. This resolution is based on sort. The energy is there. One of the ques- tions which will be asked, a quite obvious one specifie point. 1 think everybody will question is, if we run out of fuel altogether agree with the first paragraph of that what is the purpose of going ahead with a resolution which spells out that "the threat project of this sort? Well, the answer is of a serious energy crisis cannot be ignored, obvious. Peel power station, having set out and, being aware of the undoubted suocess on a scheme to produce electricity, is now of the pilot district heating scheme pro- producing heat, so let us assume that no moted by the Isle of Man Electricity Board further electricity can be generated by oil at its Peel station, the Isle of Man Electri- because oil has dried up altogether. The city Board be urged to proceed with scheme system then would be, of course, to produce No. 2 as outlined by its project engineer heat from the electricity power station, ..." Incidentally, in case you do not know, rather than produce heat in every one of the project engineer has been sitting in the these complexes because they have got to Court for the last two days because this is have heat from some source, and if you a scheme where I think he is to be con- can produce it at a central point and dis- gratulated on the efforts he has put into a tribute it, it is perfectly obvious what the matter here which is of extreme importance advantages are. So 1 think we will conic to every person in this Island. This scheme back to the point after all the questions is a straightforward, simple extension of have been asked. This is why f am saying something which I have already introduced very little at this stage. I know questions in the Peel power station in the way of a will be asked. T know there is an amend- pilot scheme. The whole aspect of this pilot ment in front of us at this stage. Of course. scheme was to show what energy was being I will answer the amendment at the appro- thrown away in the way of heat. The priate time because it would be unfair of exercise, I think, was a successful one. me to mention it in the early stages, so we People were invited along to see it and will leave over this question of the amend- everybody expressed the view that it was a ment until the proper time when I should successful exercise. With the next step, of answer it, and we will concentrate on the 'course, comes a crunch. Here we have a advantages of a waste heat recovery, not the situation now where we can take it up over advantages of electricity. It utilises the the hill. T even produced a little sketch energy which is now being wasted, whether which all members have and, as I say, I it is the energy of coal or whatever it am not insulting the intelligence of any happens to be, it reduces atmospheric member of this lion. Court, T am assuming pollution as numerous separate boilers in

District Heating Scheme —Motion Amended and Approved.

TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T9I3

individual premises would not be required, in the United Kingdom, for nuclear power the existing central heating and hot water in the Isle of Man, you are talking in terms systems can be adapted by the insulation of of something like. £20 million. So even if the heat exchanger which would either be you are looking into the next century these in addition to or in substitution of the arc figures which you can play with now. existing boilers, the consumer would be What I am saying at this stage is that if relieved of the responsibility of ordering we had an interest-free loan for a scheme fuel supplies, there would be a reduction in which will cost probably a million, possibly the number of coal wagons and oil tankers less than that, we could provide the electri- on roads with consequential saving in wear city that we suggest to all of these places and tear and easing of traffic conditions on whose present fuel bills, based on their the Island's narrow roads, the fuel imports annual cost in this day and age, are £28,000 to the Island would be reduced, the revenue a year. We can provide the heat to these from sale of waste heat could cushion the places for £250,000. These are facts and effects of the fuel oil price rises and hence these are the projections which we can help to stabilise electricity tariffs. These are make. The only thing I want to say at this some of the advantages that any member of stage is that if We are told, go it alone, this Court can see. As T said, this is only come along and borrow the money from us one step. We are going into the 21st at an early date and we will give you our century. I am saying we are, and I will full support but you must do it over an probably fall off the perch before we get to amortisation on perhaps a 15-year basis, the 21st century if it comes to that, but which would be about normal, the cost then there are a lot of younger people than me to us, an annual running cost, would be in this Court who will be able to look back £59,000 or £60,000 per annum. If we go to and say, well, we provided for these things a figure of £59,000 to £60,000 per annum. in the years when it mattered in the same I cannot go along to my 13,000 consumers way that Douglas Corporation in our time and say, I want you boys to look to the turn back and say, well, our forefathers future and pay for something which provided for the vast expanse in the ques- inevitably, in the long-term, will be of vast tion of water at a time when it could not benefit to the Isle of Man. It is on this basis be foreseen that they needed a reservoir that I am trying to say, as I have said containing 300 million gallons of water. So before, it will not concern me, but I am we are looking to the future. We are in a trying to say that if you want to look into position now where we have set up a pilot the future, try to get some support from Government on the same basis as you did scheme. What we are saying to this hon. with the Block Eary scheme, an interest- Court is, do you want us now to take the free loan. We will pay the money back, bull by the horns and get ahead and try certainly, but in the long-term it can do something with this scheme on the next no other than save this Island money and stage? Do you want us to do it or do you energy. I rest the case there because it is want to sit back and say, traa-dy-liooar, we so obvious to everybody that this is what might have nuclear tomorrow, we might it is all about, and it is so obvious that the have something else tomorrow? if we talk only opposition to it will be on the basis about nuclear, the latest reports which have of the financial side of it and I must reserve been issued from anybody in authority on some of what I have to say in my reply to the Island on the question of nuclear power, the finance chief. estimate that if we want to set up our own generation by a nuclear power station ... Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, I would Think, first of all, before you mention even like to second this resolution arid tell the the cost of it, think first of all what the Court that this is a scheme which has come environmentalists will say about it. But if about primarily by the initiative of the hon. you do want to talk on those terms you are member, the Chairman of the Electricity talking in terms of an estimated sum of Board, but also in co-operation with, and £47 million. If, on the other hand, you with the entire support of, the Indigenous want to take a suggestion which I have Power Sources Com.mittee. I would like, already put to this hon. Court, the alterna- too, to take the opportunity of congratula- tive of laying a cable from. the nearest point ting the hon. member in that schemes were

District Heating Scheme—Motion Amended and Approved. T9I4• TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979

put forward by the Indigenous Power give the hon. member, Mr. Moore, every Sources Committee which unfortunately did possible encouragement and also our very not attract the support of the Isle of Man sincere congratulations. Electricity Board as it then existed. With The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, in the the advent of the hon. member, Mr. Moore, absence of the Chairman of the Board of the Committee found in him a man with Education, perhaps as Vice-Chairman of vision and foresight and a man who was that Board, 1 may make a very brief com- prepared to step forward and engage in these sort of schemes and I think he ought to be ment. As far as the Board is concerned, this suggestion for the linking of the new congratulated on the way he has carried his Board forward to do something which secondary school at Peel into a district initially was of no direct advantage to his heating scheme is one which appears to many consumers but which is now clearly have considerable merit and the architect going to show an extremely useful contri- for Peel school is currently looking into the bution to our whole energy problem. On possibilities, along with the engineer and the question of an interest-free loan, when secretary of the Electricity Board. Whilst was a small boy I was farmed out every it is correct to say that the idea has merit, summer. My parents were busy at Rushen it is fair to say also that the technical aspect Abbey and small boys were nothing but a and problems likely to be involved have not nuisance. I was farmed out to a cottage at yet been appraised. The suggestion is that Cross-Four-Ways, and at Cross-Four-Ways, the district heating mains will emanate in this cottage, there were two sources of from the Peel power station and will save. water. There was a water butt outside the initially, publicly owned organisations and back door into which water came for elderly persons' accommodotion in the town washing, but if you wanted any drinking and in this respect, should the scheme reach water my small bother and T used to walk fruition, there is the possibility that the along to Cross-Four-Ways, about half-a-mile school will occupy a dual rifle in the away, in order to collect water from the system. As the school has been fitted with pump, but it was no good just going to the the latest and most efficient type of boilers pump empty handed. We did not just take and as there is a certain standby capacity an empty bucket, we always had to take in the event of increased requirements in with that bucket a fair amount of water the future, the situation could exist whereby because until we had poured water down the school would be in a position to con- into the pump we could have pumped in tribute to the scheme by the infusion of vain. It is necessary to get this scheme off hot water from its own boilers. Obviously, the ground to prime the pump. I would there is a lot of work to be done and a lot have thought the question of interest-free more information to be had, especially loans which will be spread over a consider- concerning the costings, before a firm pro- able period ... We are not talking in terms posal can be put before the Board of of asking the hon. member, the Chairman Education but the principle involved at this of the Finance Board, to write a cheque for moment is firmly supported. £,;- million here. I would have thought to Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, 1 would give an interest-free loan in this way in be the last person, T hope, in this hon. order to progress an inspired scheme such Court to criticise anybody for having as the hon. member is putting forward, we initiative to put forward progressive would be condemned by the future if we schemes. The main principle concerning the failed to take this step. T believe that this Finance Board at the present moment is is one of the most forward looking plans where exactly do you draw the line in which we have ever had to consider in this reference to giving interest-free loans to Tynwald. T believe it is only one of a Boards to manage to implement their pro- number of similar schemes to save energy. jects? We have already considered in the I would sincerely hope that the amendment past the hydro-electric scheme in Sulby to be moved by the hon. member of the Glen and we have agreed to give an interest- Finance Board is one which either he will free loan there, we thought it was going to withdraw for shame or which this Court be of benefit to the community. Now we will reject. T think the time has come to have this project, an excellent idea, T would

District Heating Scheme—Motion Amended and Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T915 not deny that for one moment, everybody complex and these industrial commercial appreciates that if anybody is able to re- enterprises, so the Electricity Board would cycle heat and use it for the benefit of the be entitled to charge for the heat that they community, very well and good, but this were supplying. The amount they could scheme, and let us not overlook this fact, afford to pay by way of interest, naturally, if this interest-free loan is made available would depend on the cost of the operation we are talking about a sum of £250,000 as of this scheme. Once the capital works are estimated. We all know what can happen, completed I would imagine the cost of possibly, when it comes to fruition, maybe operation would be reasonably small. Of £350,000, maybe double it. On the present this, of course, I am entirely unaware but figures, if we have to borrow the money at it does look to me as though there might 12 per cent. it will cost this Government welt be a case for a period of interest-free £239,000 and at 10 per cent it would cost loan, perhaps until such time as the us £199,000, possibly £200,000, as a gift to equipment and necessary piping was pro- a certain Board to put forward a project vided for, after which period there should that they think at this moment in time will be some interest payable on the loan. be beneficial. It is up to this Court to decide I would feel that this is a question whether this is going to be restricted entirely of the Electricity Board and the Finance to giving the interest-free loans to one Board getting together and seeing whether individual certain Board who are going to or not they can come to some agreement put forward schemes for the implementation for an interest-free period of perhaps a year, of the supply of heat, or electricity, or what- two years, T do not know how long it is ever it may be, or is this going to be a going to take for this work to be clone. If general policy accepted by this Goverment this were done I am quite sure that accom- that when Boards come forward in the modation would be found and the Finance future with some kind of a project that can Board would be quite prepared to assist be argued as being beneficial to the com- during a period when no revenue was being munity, then we are, as the Finance Board, earned by the Electricity Board from the going to be directed, you borrow the money supply of this heat. I will, Your Excellency, and you must make it available interest- second the amendment that has been moved free. It is a policy I do not like but it is by the Chairman of the Finance Board. entirely up to this Tynwald Court to decide whether or not they are prepared to accept A Member: He has not moved it yet. it. As I say, the principle of giving it Sir John Bolton: Has he not moved it? interest-free is what we are concerned about. I am certainly not in any way Mr. P. Radcliffe: I beg your pardon, criticising the idea put forward by the hon. Your Excellency, I overlooked the point member of how we hope to utilise what has before I sat down. (Interruptions.) been a waste product in the past and make it beneficial for the future. Our main object Sir John Bolton: Well, I will move the is to get that situation and policy clarified. amendment put forward by the hon. member, the Chairman of the Finance Sir John Bolton: Your Excellency, I am Board, that the words "interest-free" be wondering in connection with this scheme deleted. T do not know whether 1 can add what the eventual operating costs will be. anything to it. 1 think the Chairman of the I do not know just what will be the cost of Finance Board understands what I am saying providing the heat after the capital cost has and I think that he agrees with me that he been met but I would take it that the Board would be prepared to consider an interest- of Educaion would have to pay for the free loan for a short period but when the heating of this school if this scheme was work is complete then I think there should not proceeded with and I do not see why be a contribution by way of interest and it they should not pay an equivalent amount is for that reason I would move the amend- if the school is going to be efficiently heated ment that has been put forward by the hon. by this means. The same I take it would member in order to obtain justice as apply to the Clothworkers' School, it would between the people who are going to be apply to the Corrin Home, the Westlands supplied with heat and the Electricity Board.

District Heating Scheme—Motion Amended and Approved. [916 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979

Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I would technicalities of which pocket of Govern- like to second the amendment which has ment the money comes out of and eventually been so ably proposed by Sir John Bolton. goes back into, the important thing is, I (Laughter.) I found myself in a very difficult do not believe we can afford not to do it. position before because of the fact that I We have spent some time talking about knew my Chairman rose to move the insulation this afternoon which might save amendment but, in fact, sat down omitting 10 per cent. of fuel bills. Block Eary has to do so. I would like to say at the very been mentioned, which did have interest- start that I am wholeheartedly behind this free loans which provides, I think, less than scheme. I think my hon. colleague has done 1 per cent. of the Island's electricity needs, a wonderful service for the Isle of Man. but what we are talking about here is His project engineer has put forward what utilising waste energy, 50 per cent. of the appears to me, it is nothing new, this is energy available from the fuel oil burnt, something which has been undertaken with and it is something that we have got to look great success in other places and I am sure to and I am sure this hon. Court will sup- it will prove a success. I have complete port the motion before it wholeheartedly. confidence in it but there is just the point which my hon. colleague, Sir John, has The Governor: Do you wish to reply? made. We do feel that to commit ourselves Mr. Moore: Yes, just a very few words, at this particular stage, this must be Your Excellency. I am worried about this interest-free for the period of 15 years question of an amendment because the whole repayable time and all the rest of it, is a purpose of bringing this forward is based very big bite before we have measured the on the premise that we know over the years true extent of the finances concerned. We we have held up everything which we should are prepared to go into negotiations with have done years ago. Let us talk about the the Electricity Board to work out a satis- Little London scheme for hydro-electric factory system and this is all we ask but v.hich would not have been peanuts, as we feel that if we once establish the prin- somebody calls Block Eary. This was a big ciple of giving interest-free loans we never scheme, Glen Rushen, schemes of that sort, know where it is going to land and it might and every time they came almost to fruition be to the detriment of this hon. Court. one thing held them up, we cannot afford to do them. Now the only people, this is Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, 1 am sold a point I tried to put to you, you good on the idea of district heating and I think folk, the only people whom it is suggested it should be encouraged wherever possible. could pay for this scheme are the electricity The only thing I am sorry about is that in consumers. Now heat is a by-product. It is the south we do not have a power station indigenous power and indigenous power to get some heat from. That does not mean should be paid by some other source. We we want the hon. member, Mr. Kermeen's say that in the long-term it can only bring fast breeder in Port Erin, but certainly the financial benefit to this Island and all I am principle of district heating is one which saying to this hon. Court in the resolution commends itself to me. After all, it really which f put down is, do not let it fall on is just making more efficient use of the fuel 13,000 consumers of the Electricity Board used in the power station. The important because the only people who can benefit in thing, I think, is that the cost of the heating this initial stage are the people in the Peel scheme should not fall on the consumer of area and if we become hesitant because of the electricity and I am sure that by the cost and fail to do something in the Ramsey Finance Board and the Electricity Board area where we have already made certain getting together you can ensure that does preliminary moves in order that we could not happen and I would support the resolu- take out into three schools right away in tion and the amendment. Ramsey, if we become hesitant in these things at this stage, all right, we will all Dr. Moore: Yes, Your Excellency, also sit back and pat ourselves on the back that speaking in support of the motion, I am we did not spend any money and in 10 years sure the question is not can we afford it and time for this precise scheme we will not be f would not like to get bogged down in the talking in terms of £28,000 a year, we will

District Heating Scheme—Motion Amended and Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 T917 be talking about £280,000 a year the way saying at this stage is that instead of getting costs are going up at present. We know what you are getting now we will give you how escalation has taken over from us. Sir the whole sum, so you are talking of the John mentioned the costings. The annual difference between £86,000 to us and costings were based and the figures were £165,000. How the sums are going down given to the Indigenous Power Committee, already. We were talking yesterday and the annual costings. I had a breakdown patting ourselves on the back about which worked out at, well I gave these £330,000. Over and above that this hon. figures, the total variable costs were £12,000. Court has already agreed that we should the actual cost on us picking up the tab have some financial support for needy at this stage, annual costs £59,000 a year, consumers which amounts to a very modest that is taking into consideration the amount sum of another £12,000 or so in the course of interest we have to pay. of the year so now you are getting down to the terms of saying to us, you are now Sir John Bolton: Not interest, no. going to get as a gift from Finance Board Mr. Moore: The annual cost which would something like £60,000, a very welcome sum cover as well the £28,000, which are normal indeed but turned into the terms of the oil annual costs. If we add the interest costs on rises this year, a loan for this Board, it is .top of that we are going from £28,000 which going to cost us £400,000 more this year we could pick up the tab for, £28,000 is to meet the increases on our oil, so here what it would cost us at this stage, the we are with the drop in the bucket and annual cost if we could get rid of the capital what I am saying is that unless we can come sum, we would be faced with £28,000 a year to some terms with Finance Board, and which we could recoup, and make no will accept the amendment but this mistake about it, we have got to recoup it amendment is now saying to me, forget from the schools, from the other places, but interest-free. we would offer them heating at a cheaper rate than any other fuel which will be Mr. Crellin: It is not saying that. available in 12 months, two years, 10 years' time, because we are in the position of Mr. Moore: I have got to talk to the pumping out heat which is at present wasted Finance Board in terms of how much can and we can finance £28,000 because of what we have. Can we do our sums and can you we expect to get in at this stage. If we are pick up the tab on the difference between going to finance any more than that we have what we will get back in the early days got to go to the rest of our consumers to and what we wait etf-in the long-term? Now pick up the tab on the sum. f have got to that is all I am asking for because I come give credit first of all again to the Chairman back to the main point in the whole of the of the Finance Board in a statement yes- resolution, this was a declaratory resolution, terday when he said in no uncertain terms, so that we can go ahead now and give you we will rebate the whole of the £330,000 costings and get down to the details. A lot which the Electricity Committee are paying of work has been done on this. We can at present. This is the £330,000 which the come up with a scheme to save energy and electricity undertaking, both ourselves and to save money and to save a lot of other the Corporation Electricity Committee are things for this Island which I have already paying, but if we break this figure down, mentioned, the work of the lorries on the grateful as we are on this figure, most roads, the environmental considerations, we grateful, a very great help to us in these can come up with the answers to a lot of days, we have got to look at certain facts these problems but we cannot do it at the which stick out a mile. Half of this £330,000, expense of 13,000 consumers of the Electri- of course, belongs to the Electricity Com- city Board and when we get our sums right, mittee of the Douglas Corporation, to assist if I have the backing of this Tynwald Court them because we were talking about the that I can go back to Finance Board, put whole sum. Now, £165,000 which is left for my facts on the table and pick up the tab our Board to pick up, we already get some- between what it is going to cost to run this thing like £86,000 rebated at the ordinary scheme year by year and what I can get 2'2- pence. I am assuming that all you are back, and the Finance Board assist on the

District Heating Scheme—Motion Amended and Approved. T9I8 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 20, 1979 rest, 1 am perfectly happy to leave it in your HOUSE OF KEYS good hands. The Acting-Speaker: Hon. members, I The Governor: 1 will first put the amend- hope you will be good enough to stay ment, hon. members. Is that agreed? behind just for one moment for a small matter which we will take in private. Before It was agreed. we go into private, I must announce in The Governor: I will now put the motion, public that the House will stand adjourned as amended. Is that agreed? until 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday 26th June, in the House of Keys Chamber. The sitting It was agreed. will be morning only because after the sitting there will be the Speaker's luncheon. The Governor: That concludes our busi- would like the House just to stay for a ness. Council will now withdraw and leave moment in private. Mr. Acting-Speaker to put such business to the Keys as he may wish. The House sat in private.

House of Keys.