REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF HOUSE OF KEYS

Douglas, Tuesday, October 28, 1975 at 11 a.m.

Present: The Speaker (Mr. H. C. Kerruish, with the majority of votes of members O.B.E.), Messrs. R. J. G. Anderson, H. D.C. present and voting, but less than 13, must MacLeod, G. M. Kermeen, P. Radcliffe, be voted upon separately to see whether or Miss J. C. C. Thornton-Duesbery, Messrs. not that candidate can achieve the necessary J. R. Creer, E. Ranson, P. A. Spittall, G. T. 13 votes, a majority of the House. If two Crellin, T. C. Faragher. N. Q. Cringle, Mrs. or more candidates have a majority of E. C. Quayle, Messrs. W. A. Moore, E. M. votes of members present and voting, but Ward, B.E.M., E. C. Irving, Miss K. E. less than 13, then the candidate with the Cowin, Mr. G. A. Devereau, Mrs. B. Q. most votes is voted upon separately to Hanson, Messrs. R. MacDonald, P. G. achieve 13. If there is an equality in this Hislop, Sir Henry Sugden, K.B.E., C.B., case then that provision of putting the D.S.O., with Mr. T. E. Kermeen, Secretary candidate's name to the House is decided of the House. by lot. The candidate, on election, is en- titled to 14 days under the Act to make up APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE. his or her mind whether or not they will accept the nomination. Those, broadly, are The Speaker: Apologies for absence have the rules governing the election. If any been received from Mr. Bell and Mr. Clucas member has any questions, at this stage, I who are attending the Commonwealth would be happy to try and answer them. Parliamentary Association Conference in If not, hon. members, we will proceed to India. the election of a person to serve as a mem- ber of the Legislative Council. as set out LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL— at item I of our Agenda, and I am now MR. CRELLIN ELECTED AS prepared to receive nominations. A MEMBER Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, I would like to propose the hon. and gallant member for Hon. members, the first The Speaker: Rushen, Major Crellin. I know that many item on our Agenda this morning is the members will be aware that Major Crellin election of a person to serve as a member has intimated to this hon. House that he of the Legislative Council in terms of has no intention of standing for the next section 4 of the Isle of Man Constitution election to the House of Keys. We are all (Amendment) Act 1975 for the period aware also it was because of health reasons ending on 31st October 1982. Governing the at that time that he made that statement. election in connection with item 1 on the I feel certain that Major Crellin has served Agenda are these qualifications — a person this House extremely well. I have had the to be eligible must be not less than 21 years pleasure of serving with him on the Local of age, must be resident in the Isle of Man Government Board for many years and I and be not in receipt of United Kingdom feel certain that it would be a great loss to or Isle of Man Government salary. The this House and to Tynwald in the future procedure, broadly, is this — to elect a if we lost Major Crellin, I therefore would candidate that person must have 13 votes like to nominate him. or more. I shall initially call for nomina- tions and the proposer and seconder may Mr. Faragher: Mr. Speaker, I would like speak in favour of their nominee. Each to second the hon. member, Mr. Crellin. completed ballot paper must give a vote When I entered this hon. House in 1965 to only one candidate and the candidate the south of the Island had six members

Apologies for Absence.— Legislative Council—Mr. Crellin Elected as a Member. K2 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28. 1975

representing it, three from the sheading of member of this House, has been returned Rushen in the House of Keys, one from three times for Glenfaba and he does in- Castletown in the House of Keys, and two valuable work especially in connection with members in the Legislative Council, namely the hospital and it gives me great pleasure Mr. McFee and Sir Ralph Stevenson. Un- to nominate him for the Council. fortunately, two or three years later Sir Ralph retired and unfortunately for us Mr. Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, I find McFee lost his seat, so therefore we have myself in a quandary here today because, been going, this last few years, with four like my other colleagues from the west, it representatives from the south of the Isle of is rather disturbing having only at the last Man. When 1 came in, as I have said before, election of this type in the House agreed the population in the south was much to support a Rushen member because I smaller than it is at the moment and I am think a member was required from Rushen convinced, in my own mind, that the south where there is a fair sized population, but of the Island is entitled to six sitting mem- like my colleague from Glenfaba, I am bers in our Legislature. That is not the only rather disturbed to find that in fact in the reason that I am moving Mr. Crellin, but west of the Island once again we will have I think if Mr. Crellin was relieved of the no representation whatsoever in the Council. arduous duty of being a member of the The balance at the moment, Mr. Speaker, Finance Board and, this is my thought, made if we divide the Island into four areas, I an ordinary member such as we are, I think know this is not the only criteria, I think that he would accept. I think he would make service to the House and length of service an excellent member representative of the in the House is also a criteria in this elec- Keys in the Upper House. In his time in tion. Mr. MacLeod and for that matter Mr. this House he has been Vice-Chairman of Creer are, apart from yourself, Mr. Speaker, the Local Government Board, Vice-Chair- senior members in the House with long man of the Police Board, a member of the service in all sorts of jobs. However, I find Children's Committee, Whitley Council, that in the Council at the moment we have Board of Education, War Pensions, Manx three Council members from the east of the Museum and National Trust, Trades Island, two from the north of the Island Council, and Vice-Chairman of the Assess- and one from the south, with the west not ment Board, and this has given him a represented at all. Even so, in the Keys I considerable amount of experience. As we find that we have from the south of the all know, Geoff, whatever he sets out to do Island four representatives. in Tynwald, he does it thoroughly; we have all got to where this joint vote takes place through admit that. We may not like his points of an unusual system, not to be found any- view sometimes, but that is beside the point, where else in the Commonwealth, this that is his way of thinking and our way of balance of power is very important for the thinking also, but nevertheless whatever he people in the different areas. In the east of does he does it well and I, for one, take the Island at the moment if I put Middle, great pleasure, Mr. Speaker, in seconding with all due respect to the gentlemen from Mr. Crellin. Middle, Mr. Speaker, if 1 put them in the east because I do not think they are very Mr. Anderson: Mr. Speaker, I wish to far west, there are 12 people in this House nominate my colleague, Mr. Hugh Mac- representing the east of the Isle of Man Leod, one of the most senior members of today, there are five in this House repre- this House and also from an area of the senting the north of the Isle of Man, there Island that is for the first time, in a very are four in the south, the west has three, long time, without representation in the so the west has a minority in this House, Upper House. The west of the Island, well the Keys, and no-one at all in the Upper for a very long time my father-in-law was House. I agree that if we had a party a member, Mr. George Gale was a member system of government in the Isle of Man, of that House representing the west of the Mr. Speaker, this would not matter at all Island, and subsequently Mr. Ffinl•o Cork- as the balance of power would be decided hill, and the west of the Island is now on political issues. Unfortunately, under without representation. I do not think this our system it is not decided on political is the only criteria, but he is a senior issues; to a large extent, if anything, it is

Legislative Council--Mr. Crellin Elected as a Member. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28. 1975 K3

decided on parish pump. However, 1 think near to me who have long service, I would that the balance of power at the same time be prepared to accept either, Mr. Speaker, must be equally distributed among the but I think that we should get the chance in people as we have this non-political party the west of representation. system. I having nothing against Major Miss Cowin: Are we here to judge on Crellin, I think he is an outstanding worker, personalities or circumstances or on value Mr. Speaker, in this House. I was disturbed which we may expect from the services of myself when he announced that he thought the person elected? he would not be standing for the Keys. I think, if members do not mind me saying The Speaker: Is that question posed to this today, I do not think really what we the Chair? (Laughter.) should do, and we have done this in the past, I do not think we should elect people Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Speaker, on a point of merely because (a) they are getting too old, clarification, the hon. member for Peel was and we all know of cases in the past when talking about the representation of the west this has happened. I do not think we should and parish-pump politics, does not Mr. elect people there because they are good Norman Crowe live in the west in Kirk chaps. I do not think we should elect people Michael? there because perhaps health-wise they are Mr. MacDonald: That is north! He does finding the pressure in the Lower House not come in with us at all! heavy, and 1 do not think, Mr. Speaker, that we should elect people there because Mr. Creer: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am afraid they fear the next election—not that I am I am going to support the hon. member saying anyone here putting their name for- from Peel who has been in this House now ward thinks this. I think we should look at — I suppose myself, Mr. MacLeod and Sir this quite carefully and coolly and think to Henry Sugden are the senior members, I ourselves are the people of the Island have been asked to be nominated for the getting the proper representation in the Legislative Council and 1 turned it down * Council that they deserve or are some because there are already two members people to be treated less equal than others. from Middle. I do feel that the west should As my colleague from Glenfaba said, since be represented. In my time in the House we time immemorial the west had representa- have had George Moore, and George Gale tion in the Council. I know my good friend who previously represented Peel. However, Mr. Faragher from Rushen, Mr. Speaker, I was going to propose.the man who has has said it used to be six and now we have just been speaking, although I will support only got five. This is tough, this is mighty a representative of the west, I would have tough, but how much tougher on the people liked to have seen Mr. MacDonald repre- in the west who have no-one at all, not a senting the west of the Island. I think he sole representative. I find in the Council I has given outstanding service to the House think, as I have said, under the system we of Keys and is, I think, the senior member have, local representation is necessary and after the three I have already mentioned, certainly, Mr. Speaker, when it comes to a except you, Mr. Speaker. Consequently, I a sitting of Tynwald. I think in Tynwald it is propose Mr. MacDonald. very necessary that the various areas, at the moment, do have someone there in the Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, it was not my Upper House from each area. Some may intention to contribute to the debate at all in this particular case, but say today, well Douglas with its vast popu- I do find myself in a position when I have got to say some- lation, if you throw Onchan in with the thing about the way in which we are Douglas members which it should be any- carrying this little battle on. I am not asking way, if you put them together they have a question but I am saying what I think. fair representation based on present popu- What we are deciding here is who we, as a lation. However, I would plead with the House of Keys, should support in order that House, Mr. Speaker, to consider my col- he can represent us, not some little group league from Glenfaba. I will second Mr. of people somewhere in the Island. This is MacLeod and I think at the same time of -4 an Island and when we want to talk about the two men I think at the moment sitting representation for areas we have got to get

Legislative Council—Mr. C .elfin Elected as a Member. K4 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 down seriously to cutting the Island up into said parochial politics should not come into four areas and getting some legislation at this at all, we elect a member of this hon. local government level. House to represent this House in the Upper 4 Mr. MacDonald: I agree with that. Chamber and we want one who can give service. One name is outstanding, in my Mr. Moore: This is where we want to do mind, in giving service to this House and this. However, when we are talking about this is the hon. Chairman of the Local legislative matters and who should go onto Government Board, Mr. Percy Radcliffe, the top shelf we should be looking at the who has served in this House for a con- merits of the man, not where he represents. siderable number of years, who has had a What are his merits to represent us and do most distinguished record and who I would we feel that we will get his support when like to see nominated as the member that he gets up there. There is too much of this we should elect this morning. I nominate business of saying oh well, because we do Mr. Percy Radcliffe, the hon. member for not want him down here kick him upstairs, Ayre. or because of various reasons, where he Mr. Creer: I will second that, Mr. works, where he lives, this is all wrong. We Speaker. decide on who we want to represent us on the Legislative Council purely and simply Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, if I may be by what are his merits as far as this House permitted to comment, I would much prefer is concerned and we should not make any it if my name does not go forward. I am mistake about that. quite happy to be a member of this hon. House. Although Manx Radio did say The Speaker: Is there a seconder to the yesterday there were four contenders, I nomination of the hon. member for Peel? think that was the word used for this A Member: I beg to second, Mr. Speaker. situation, I am not a contender as such, I am quite happy to remain a member of the Mr. MacDonald: I do not wish to stand, House of Keys and I would prefer it if my Mr. Speaker. name did not go forward. Mr. Irving: Does the hon. member wish The Speaker: Is the House then prepared to accept nomination, sir? If he does I will to accept the hon. member's reason for be pleased to second. It will give him his asking that his name should not go forward? chance for a representative from the west. Miss Cowin: Mr. MacDonald: I would rather, Mr. Mr. Speaker, is it possible to accept this conditionally? Speaker, bow to my elder colleague. The Speaker: No madam. The hon. mem- Mr. Speaker: We are not quite sure what ber has been proposed and seconded. He has that means, would you be clear here? I indicated a wish that his name should not have the nominations in front of me. go forward, in the event of his proposer and Mr. MacDonald: I have said I have no seconder showing their willingness to accept wish to stand, Mr. Speaker. his desire on this matter and the House The Speaker: If the House is prepared being prepared to accept the withdrawal of • then you would wish your proposer and that nomination, that it be struck off. Do seconder to withdraw their nomination? you accept that, Mr. Devereau? Mr. MacDonald: Yes. I thank them very Mr. Devereau: I do. I am sorry, Mr. much indeed, Mr. Speaker, for their support. Speaker, I probably should have ap- proached the member in the first place to The Speaker: Is the House prepared to ask whether he was willing to stand. I accept that situation? neglected to do this but he does not seem It was agreed. to mind. The Speaker: Very well, thank you. The Speaker: Are there any further nomi- Mr. Devereau: Mr. Speaker, there is one nations, hon. members? If there are no name which very much to my surprise has further nominations then the House will not come forward in this election. As the proceed to ballot on the names before it. hon. member for North Douglas rightly The names of the candidates are the hon.

Legislative Council—Mr. Crellin Elected as a Member.

HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K5

member for Rushen, Mr. Crellin, and the BILLS FOR FIRST READING. hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. MacLeod. The Speaker: Now, Bills for first reading. Please vote for one candidate only. The Secretary: Gambling Laws (Amend- A ballot took place. ment) Bill — Mr. Hislop; Animal Offences The Speaker: The result of the ballot, hon. Bill — Mr. Cringle; Arbitration Bill — Mr. members, Mr. Crellin 14 votes, Mr. Mac- Creer; Architects Bill — Mr. Ward; Repre- Leod eight votes. I duly declare Mr. Crellin sentation of the People (Amendment) Bill, elected and formally congratulate him on from the Council —Mr. Radcliffe; Customs his success. I wish him every good fortune and Excise Acts (Application) Bill, from the in his new sphere of activity. Council — Mr. Crellin.

LICENSING (AMENDMENT) BILL— PRICE MARKING BILL—THIRD LEAVE TO INTRODUCE GRANTED. READING APPROVED. The Speaker: We turn to the next item The Speaker: And now for third reading A. on our Agenda. I call upon the hon. member we have the Price Marking Bill and I call for Douglas East, Mr. Irving, to ask leave upon the hon. member for Castletown, Mrs. to introduce a Licensing (Amendment) Bill. Quayle. Mr. Irving: Sir, I understand that I am Mrs. Quayle: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If not permitted to introduce the Licensing I might refresh members' minds the first (Amendment) Bill as there is a Licensing object of this Price Marking Bill is to en- Bill on the table in Tynwald awaiting sig- able shoppers to know what certain goods nature. Is that correct? I understand, sir, cost so that they are better able to get that the Bill has been signed by a majority value for their money. In other words, it is of the House of Keys, but it requires one to provide a fair deal for the consumer. The vote in the Council still. Bill is based on the United Kingdom Prices The Speaker: I am not aware of any Act 1974. It might interest members to know of the Price Marking and Unit Pricing • information on this point, the Bill is still lying on the table. Orders in being so far in the United King- dom. They are for all pre-packed meat, for May I have your ruling on Mr. Irving: offal and various fresh meats, in other this point please, Mr. Speaker? words meats not pre-packed, for various The Speaker: I think it does pose a con- types of fish and for potatoes and some stitutional question as to how long this fresh vegetables. Next week, from 1st particular situation can go on and I shall November, all fresh fruit and vegetables ask the Attorney-General to investigate it will require to be price marked in the because there are obvious complications if United Kingdom. There are also plans to a measure lies on the table indefinitely. extend unit pricing, that is the price per Mr. Irving: May I take it, sir, that I pound of all normal cuts of meat and to would be unable to proceed with this this end they are trying out a pilot scheme Licensing Bill? for the unit pricing of meat in the United Kingdom. As members will see over there The Speaker: I see no reason why you price marking is required for ordinary cannot ask for leave to introduce a measure, common or garden commodities that the sir. The timing of the measure of course, housewife is purchasing. In the Isle of Man however, can be determined by the progress of the other Bill. Leave to introduce does no order requiring price marking of goods not mean to say that you are necessarily can come into effect until it has been ap- bringing it forward within a six-month proved by Tynwald. The second object of period or the other governing factors. this Bill is to give the Governor powers to make orders requiring a retailer to display Mr. Irving: In that case, sir, I beg to ask information about the range of prices for leave of the House to introduce a Bill to which certain goods are to be sold in the permit Sunday opening of hotels in the Island for a particular period or on a winter period. particular date. I beg to move that the The Speaker: On that formality I take it Price Marking Bill 1975 now be read a hon. members accept. third time.

Licensing (Amendment) Bill—Leave to Introduce Granted. — Bills for First Reading. — Price Marking Bill—Third Reading Approved. K6 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975

Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, I beg to second. have a captive audience, in other words in In view of the fact that I was absent when places where they charge an admission to the hon. member for Castletown introduced go into a room, we have suggested that the the second reading of this Bill, I would like price of drinks in that particular room to be permitted just to say that we endorse should be displayed before the person enters this Bill from the Consumer Council for the room, in other words, on the window very specific reasons. You will remember or on the door of the place where these that it is almost two years ago now since practices take place. we gave shopkeepers in the Island the Mr. MacDonald: Are they doing this? opportunity of voluntarily entering into a scheme whereby they would mark the prices Mr. Moore: No, and the thing is if you of certain items. Quite obviously we do not go and pay 25p to go and listen to some want a system where every single item music in a singing-room you are entitled to should be marked. This was never the in- know whether they are going to charge tention of the Bill. We did suggest, even you an extra 2p on your beer or whatever two years ago, that for instance in fish you happen to be drinking. We feel that shops, sweet shops, bakers' shops and fruit this is another way where we can take the shops it is much simpler for the trader to lead. So, we are not always limping lamely place a price tag onto an item, even if it is behind British legislation, if we feel that a only a stick-on price tag. For instance, on thing is necessary we bring it to the House meat pies, on pasties and things of this sort and hope to get your support. where the elderly folk who have a very Mr. Faragher: Mr. Speaker, 1 have sup- limited income are prone to wander along ported this Bill all along as I think this and do a little bit of window-shopping hon. House realises, but it does not go quite first, they look in a window and see a far enough. I just cannot remember if I was meat pie and something of that sort. They here at the second reading of the Bill or are still living in the past, and walk in. They not, I do not think I was or I would have order a meat pie and then find that the mentioned it. I can very well remember, price has gone up to such a ridiculous when I was in business, in the retail busi- extent, quite obviously for the reasons that ness, there was a Government order—I am we know about, inflation, then they are speaking now between the wars, just before faced with an embarrassing position in the war or during the war —a Government many cases. We have heard of cases where order which stated, in my business anyway. people just cannot afford to pay for a meat if you are ticketing meat the price has to pie these days. All we are saying is that if be on the meat in the window, and when prices are clearly marked these folk could Mr. MacDonald ordered meat from me for shop around and look at these goods, they the weekend I sent it to him with a ticket can look at a piece of fish and get an idea with the weight, the price per pound, and of what it is going to cost and if it had the amount, the total. Whether this is still been done on a voluntary basis, as we in operation or not I do not know but I suggested, quite possibly it would not have am continually getting one thing and been necessary for us, two years later, to another coming to my house with the ask for the introduction of this price amounts £3.42, 85p, 76p — and what it is, marking. We are always accused of fol- how much a pound it is and what weight lowing lamely along behind the United it is, your guess is as good as mine. I am Kingdom in this sort of legislation. I would not saying that people are rogues, I am remind this House that even on the prices not suggesting that in any shape or form, of drinks we have had legislation in the but it is very, very helpful to the person Island for quite a long time now insisting who is purchasing to see how much a pound that prices be displayed in public houses; they are paying for whatever commodity where Shirley Williams is now getting head- they are buying. I think this is another thing lines for doing exactly this, that we have we should be looking into. done for well over 12 months. We have Mr. Crellin: Mr. Speaker, I would just gone one stage further on this. We have like to preface the remarks which I would suggested to the Licensing Bench that in like to make on this topic by expressing my the cases of places in public houses which gratitude to the House for elevating me to

Price Marking Bill—Third Reading Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K7

the other Chamber. I would like to make Crellin on being elevated to the Upper it perfectly clear to this House that 1 have 1-louse. always treated this matter as being one Members: Hear, hear. which is, to a certain extent, an accolade Mr. MacLeod: With regard to the Price and therefore 1 would never have any hand in initiating anything connected therewith. Marking Bill, 1 would like also to see on the price marking the grade of meat in the So, I am particularly grateful to those believe that they are members who voted for me in view of the butchers' shops. I selling meat, not here but in other places, fact, of course, that I had not asked them quite cheap, but they do not put on the so to do. I will promise that I shall do my bill at the same time that it has been best to ser7e—tnis Fro se and the process of bicameral legislation to the best of limited rejected meat in the abattoir, something ability. With regard to the Price Marking that could not make the grade. I would like them to put on the ticket when they 0771 was heartened to hear the words of the hon. member for North Douglas, Mr. say that this is 25p a pound that it is first Moore, not that I was in any way querulous grade meat, second grade meat or third having had the Bill presented as it was by grade meat, so that people will know the hon. lady member for Castletown in exactly what they are buying. I know of such a clear manner in the initial stages, people who have butchers' shops and they but there were questions with regard to the say all the meat in this window is first Consumer Council which were in my mind grade, but I know at the same time it and are still in my mind which I would might be first grade cow or first grade bull, like to be absolutely sure about. Once a Bill but first grade prime quality meat should like this is passed the onus of preparing also be marked on the label at the same the orders, of taking the initiative in other time. I was asked by a grocer in Peel if words towards price marking, are left to, as he would be required to tag every little item or if it was possible to put up one I see it, the Consumer Council and those people who prod the Consumer Council, placard with the items marked price per that is to say the public. It will be up to item — would that be permissible? the Consumer Council to bring forward an Mr. Ranson: 1 would like to ask the order to Tynwald, as I see it, which Tyn- member in charge of the Bill, the hon. wald will have the power to approve, but member for Castletown, if this particular Tynwald, or the electorate, will not have Bill is adopted and I think it should be, I the power, except at that stage, to take part wholly support it, what is the situation in the process of deciding which things when price marking comes into being where should be marked and which should not. they go to pick up an article and it is I was heartened by the hon. member's marked with a certain particular price and remarks with regard to all the products in they see underneath that particular price shops. I was envisaging in a chemist shop, another label, which invariably they lift up, for instance, the ridiculous situation you and find another price altogether, much would have if every little bottle had to be cheaper? Can she explain to us, in the event labelled, it would make life unbearable for of that happening, if this Bill is adopted, everybody, so therefore one can see that what would be the position in a situation the Consumer Council will come forward like that? and will say that these goods should be Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Speaker, I was just labelled with prices, but if they do not wondering what this Bill intends to achieve. consider that a certain branch of goods The mover has suggested that it is going to should be labelled they will not come give value for money as far as those who forward. Therefore, I think the public will are buying are concerned. I think it is a have to be extremely vigilant to make sure bit lukewarm, in my own opinion, because that their wishes are met by the Consumer the word "may" is used too often —the Council in bringing these for the approval Governor may consult with the Consumer of Tynwald. Council and those interested, and so on. I think myself it is the Consumer Council Mr. MacLeod: Mr. Speaker, in the first who should consult with the Governor. It place I would like to congratulate Major is up to the Consumer Council to put it

Price Marking Bill—Third Reading Approved. K8 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975

forward, not the Governor to consult these the present Act, Mr. Speaker, which I hope other persons. I think it should be the other the Consumer Council will bring forward way around, the liability on the Consumer as soon as possible. A rather remarkable Council. thing I have discovered this year, as I have said here before, I am involved with a club Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, with re- in Peel, and we have found this year, with ference to my hon. colleague from Michael's regard to liquor prices certainly that the remark on the Consumer Council having profit levels are extremely high. I can show the power — I believe this, quite frankly, the hon. member the results, with my com- where it says empowers the Governor, after mittee's approval, of course, of trading this consultation, I should think the prodding last year, and it is remarkable the ex- will be coming from the Consumer Council ceedingly high profit that has been achieved. and not the Governor. I think the Gover- This is because if you buy things at the nor has got enough on his plate without moment in shops, which everybody does, worrying about deciding whether he should you know, even the grocer, I suppose they call somebody in to put a price tag on a all do, you buy things and pay the going ir pound of sausages down the street. I think price at the moment, and in this particular the prodding will come from the Consumer trade in a matter of six weeks to two Council; I think we can rest assured that months prices have rocketed so much that is the way it will work. Mr. Speaker, one what we bought has increased out of all thing that did rather interest me, I heard proportion to its original value. This has my hon. colleague from Douglas North been reflected very considerably in the saying about prices being displayed in overall annual profits. Any member that has drinking places. I thought at the moment been in business will see this one. It is in there was a law which says they should be. this particular trade that the greatest profit Mr. Moore: That is what I said, but they levels are being achieved for this reason. So have only just introduced it in the United I feel anything that we can do to bring Kingdom and that was the point I was home to the public what they should, in making. fact, pay for these articles will be of great help in possibly holding down prices. I Mr. MacDonald: Yes, there is one — but also think that this is long overdue, the as you were saying in the other rooms they whole Bill, and I am glad that it is in its do not display them. I think even there third reading today because I feel that the they should display them by law. Perhaps I public of the Island have been looking for am wrong on this, but I think whether you this for a long time. I remember once, when are providing music or not I think the law I went with my colleagues to Scotland, as it stands, Mr. Speaker, is quite clear noticing very much to my delight that in on this. the butchers' shops there, not only was the Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, on a point of price shown for every item of meat, but explanation . . . the actual animal. If it was Ayrshire it said Ayrshire, I do not know the difference, but Mr. MacDonald: I would like that, Mr. if it was Aberdeen Angus it said Aberdeen Speaker. Angus. For all meat displayed in that shop. you were told what type of beast and what Mr. Moore: I am only saying that the the price was. I think, havine worked this prices are displayed after you have got a one out, perhaps the butchers voluntarily captive audience. If you go to a singing- could get round to showing us that. room and you pay 25p to go into that room and then discover to your horror that you Mr. Devereau: Mr. Speaker, during these are paying an extra 2p for a pint, this is all last few years we have seen, to my horror, wrong. What I am saying is that the law the small tradesmen in the town being should say the price should be displayed subject, by competition, to the necessity of on the door before you pay an admission. going out of business. Along the promenade Do you see the point I am making? from Summer Hill end right through to the other end of the town, there are 23 less Mr. MacDonald: I can see that. This grocers' shops than there were 10 years ago. would mean, I presume, an amendment to This is due to competition that has arisen

Price Marking Bill—Third Reading Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K9

from multiple stores, and so on, very fair of the marketing organisation in the midst IIt competition. I am not against this a bit. of which they work. That is just to make I am only hoping that this Bill will not that point clear. Actually, what I wanted produce further inhibitions on the small to rise for was to support the point of view tradesman that will make this process con- put forward by the hon. member for West tinue further. I think that the time will Douglas, Mr. Devereau. There are—and I come when we might all be sorry that the have spoken to one member who informed corner shop and the like have had to dis- me quite recently, incidentally not from my continue trading. While I am not against own constituency, pointing out the very this Bill, I would like to think that the real difficulty that the small shopkeeper Consumer Council in their treatment of has run into in keeping value added tax small traders when they are making their returns and all the rest of it. They have orders to control this Bill, will be careful. increased enormously, and they said the For instance, that they shall not say to the pressures are such that for a small organisa- fish shop that every plaice they put in the tion, they have pointed out, it was almost window will have to be individually priced impossible for them to continue to run. I — this sort of thing. Of course, they could am wholeheartedly behind the spirit of this make orders and the tradesmen are now in legislation, that people know exactly what their hands when this law is passed. So 1 they are getting, but I think we should be am hoping that the small tradesman will terribly aware that we are putting burdens get some consideration of the Consumer on those small shopkeepers, many of whom Council in view of the undoubted impor- do a very great service when the big stores tance of the small trader to our community. are closed, in long hours of opening and obliging customers when others are not Miss Cowin: Mr. Speaker, there was a there to serve them. They are people who question about one mark impressed on top are often made a convenience of, but they of another mark, a price mark. As I under- do a very great service for the public. I do stand it, the requirement is for the price to hope that whatever method is adopted to be clearly shown. How do you stand then, enforce the legislation, that this fact will if the price is clearly shown on the top not be overlooked. mark which obscures the bottom mark? The other point I wanted to make was in Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, I rise with relation to butchers. I may be wrong, but mixed feelings. I am very lukewarm about it is my impression that butchers ask for this legislation. I often wonder what we are and receive from the abattoir certain types going to get in the way of value for our of meat from certain carcases. I would like money. The other day in Tynwald when we to know what the situation is in relation to were talking about our senior civil servants their certainty that they get the kind of and the amount of salary we were paying, meat from the carcase which they have to me, reading through this legislation I marked out as being the ones that they notice that the chief inspector of weights require it from. I say this in protection of and measures can do all kinds of inspec- butchers. It may be that I am very fortu- tions, or his officers can ... nate in dealing with a good butcher and Mr. Creer: More money! get what 1 want with the price clearly marked. The meat is well marked. I think Mr. Radcliffe: More money, exactly. we must not daub everyone with the same More non-productive employees. I will brush. There are careful vendors, who look support it in a very half-hearted manner. I after their customers, and I think it must think, possibly, the pro's outweigh the con's be grieving to them to be lumped in with and that we may get the situation where the less careful vendors. the customer is going to be sure that he is not being asked a ridiculous price for some Mr. Anderson: Mr. Speaker, in answer to of the commodities, but I would whole- the hon. lady member who has just resumed heartedly hope that the Consumer Council her seat, as far as actual classification and will bear in mind the situation, and will grading of stock is concerned, that is done not allow this to get out of hand by by three independent employees of this allowing through the Isle of Man nothing Government. They are totally independent that would be categorised as a lot of

Price Marking Bill—Third Reading Approved. KIO HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 snoopers who are trying to do exactly what ness of the meat she is buying, and this is some members have spoken of, that is, put the one thing that we do not seem able the small shopkeeper out of business. They to give her any indication about. Over and can only stand so much pressure and no over again one says to one's butcher, will more. I hope that this morning, if this Bill this be tender? That is what we mind about is passed—and I imagine it will be passed as housewives, and no scheme devised by -- that the Consumer Council —and I feel the Board of Agriculture can give any certain with our present Chairman, he will indication as to the toughness. Mr. Ranson, bear it in mind — that we are not going to the hon. member for Middle, I think it is create another establishment of what are bad management, the answer to your non-productive employees. problem. Sticking one label on top of another, and I think Miss Cowin also Mr. Creer: Mr. Speaker, I am going to mentioned this one, one is not supposed to support the Bill, but I am lukewarm about up-price goods and where people have com- it too. I cannot see this Bill doing any good plained to us the inspector of weights and at all, really. What I would have liked to measures has gone round and dealt with see in the Bill was a certain amount of the problem. Mr. Kermeen was doubtful price control; that would do a lot better about the wording. He felt that we should than price marking, say, a minimum price, be making the orders or approaching the anything should be sold at a minimum Governor, and not otherwise. May I say, price, or something like that. I cannot see perhaps this is the natural diffidence of the this being much use really. Consumer Council, they do not want to appear to be pushing or impolite. In fact, Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Speaker, if I might start of course, it is ourselves that will take backwards with Mr. Anderson, because he action and will be approaching the Gover- said what I think is very important, it is nor, and you will not be waiting for him. the spirit behind this legislation that matters. To the member for Douglas West, Mr. It is, we hope, there to help the purchaser Devereau, yes, the problem of the small who is less well off and is particularly in shopkeeper is very near to my heart. My our minds. If I might turn to Mr. Radcliffe, own opinion is that the short-term ad- the hon. member for Ayre, I entirely agree vantages of the supermarket and the cut- that if the Consumer Council sets out to price stores may well be out-doing the encourage complaints, that is easy enough. long-term advantages of our trading pat- Our idea is to be fair, both for the retailer terns. I was sery interested when we were and the consumer. I would like to thank up with Shoprite, and talking to them about my Chairman of the Consumer Council for this very Bill, that I asked them what they his very clear-headed explanation, and, as felt was the future pattern of trading. They usual, his invaluable help. Mr. Faragher, said they thought it was going to come the hon. member for Rushen, and if I might full circle round, that the overheads of the mention, Mr. Speaker, not unnaturally, the supermarkets and the hypermarkets were two members for Rushen have their tails becoming too great, and that we would up this morning and were the first on their probably find the small shopkeeper coming feet — if I might mention to Mr. Faragher, back into his own. All I can say is, praise I am sure the Consumer Council will take be! I am very grateful to Mr. Anderson notice of your comments, but this is why for answering a question for me, which I gave a little description of the pilot saves me. As a matter of interest, before 1 schemes that are going on in the United sit down, the Consumer Council have met Kingdom on the marking of the individual the Chamber of Trade and Commerce and joints because the trade says it is a difficult indicated to them that we will consult them and expensive thing to do. That is why they prior to the introduction of any new legis- are trying it out over there, and I am sure lation or new orders. that we will keep an eye on what happens over there before we take action over here. The Speaker: The resolution, hon. mem- The member for Glenfaba, Mr. MacLeod, bers, is that the Price Marking Bill be now the grade only concerns the confirmation of read a third time. Those in favour please the carcase. What I feel, myself, the con- say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The sumer wants to know is about the tough- Bill is read a third time.

Price Marking Bill—Third Reading Approved.

HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 KI1

USURY (PENALTIES) BILL—REPORT or the night before, the very efficient OF COMMITTEE DEFERRED. • services that the Scottish County Council The Speaker: In the absence of the hon. provided at that train accident; extremely member for Douglas South we will omit efficient. The co-ordination, as Colonel consideration of the Usury (Penalties) Bill. Spittall said, my hon. and gallant friend for Middle, the co-ordination there was mag- nificent. Every service was right on the ball, CIVIL AID SERVICES BOARD BILL and within a matter of, I think it was, 15 —BILL WITHDRAWN ON RECEPTION minutes I believe there were as many as OF COMMITTEE REPORT. 10 ambulances all lined up on the road by the train area. This is what I found, and The Speaker: We will now proceed to I think most of the Committee found, that the Civil Aid Services Board Bill for the we have got the tools and we have got the reception of the report of the Committee, manpower, but it is the co-ordinating orga- and I call upon the hon. member for nisation, I am sure, that what we have got Middle, Mr. Spittall. is efficiently handled and efficiently used. it Mr. Spittall: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. may be that when we get the new police When this Bill came before this House for headquarters built, which Tynwald approved a second reading it was quite apparent that or partially approved the other day to go there was considerable opposition to it, ahead so far, anyway, when that is built particularly from those bodies who would perhaips it is in this area that the co- be affected by it. Therefore, members will ordinating headquarters, a properly orga- remember that we sent it to a Committee nised headquarters, should be sited. I can who have looked into it thoroughly and always remember, when I did a staff college feel that the Bill as originally printed is course years ago, that one of the lessons not acceptable. Therefore, the first thing learned from the last war was that your that I would ask this House to do is to controlling headquarters should never be discharge that particular Bill. We do not, sited in built-up areas of towns, that as far 0 however, feel that all is completely satis- as possible they should be sited on the factory in the question of the planning for outskirts of a town area, because if it is emergencies, and so we have included with sited inside, immediately anything happens our report a Bill which will, in fact, set up it is committed, it is already committed in a Statutory Committee who will be respon- itself. This was one of the big lessons sible for the planning and keeping a general learned during the blitz in the last war, that eye on all the emergency operations, not your controlling organisations must be so only ones in peace but also the things that sited that they can manoeuvre and manipu- might occur in a major disaster or war. I late right from the beginning. Possibly it think, perhaps, these sort of things are in would be the police headquarters that could the United Kingdom really dealt with by be used for this purpose. I feel that in the the Home Office; we do not have a Home head officers we have got —we looked at Office or a Board that is exactly equivalent this, the chief officers we have got, we have to a Home Office in the Island here, and got efficient men who know their job, and I think that is, perhaps, where we have far, far better than lots of politicians run- fallen down. So I believe that this Com- ning it who may not know this job. It is mittee, which you will see — there is a draft better to let the men who are trained and of the Bill there which I am sure members equipped and have had years of experience have read —we suggest the setting up of in their own duties provide the real co- this Committee which will act as a sort of ordinating force, admittedly, under the chief watchdog, and we will of course be control in peacetime, under the control of able to call on all the experts that we hold, a body responsible to Tynwald and to the the fire, police, hospital services and every- House, and to the people of the Island. I thing. I beg to move that the report of the would strongly recommend that the House Committee be received. accepts the report and, like Colonel Spittall, Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, I beg to I would suggest that the original Bill be second. I do not know whether any mem- discharged. bers were watching, I think it was last night Mr. Crellin: Mr. Speaker, there are just

Usury (Penalties) Bill—Report of Committee Deferred. —Civil Aid Services Board Bill— Bill Withdrawn on Reception of Committee Report. K12 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 one or two small matters I would like to any support at all in this hon. House. I raise on this report, particularly with regard think that the work of the Committee now, to the Schedule of the proposed Bill. It we are merely saying that the people who 0 stems out of my concern in the original are involved so much in a situation of this report, on the first page of the report which sort should be co-ordinated under a Chair- we have before us, in (f) at the bottom. man and have a certain amount of system "To obtain the help of any other volunteers there that they can call on in an emergency that may be needed, and to enrol, train and is an essential part of Government, and I organise them for emergencies." When you do feel that we will support the whole of go to the Schedule, it says: "To provide for this Bill as it has now been produced. I do the control, co-ordination and administra- congratulate the Committee on bringing tion in the case of an emergency of the back something which is more in line with Civil Aid Services in the Island, that is to the thinking of this hon. House. say . . ." Then it goes on down until you Sir Henry Sugden: Mr. Speaker, I wel- come to (5) at the bottom, and it says: "To come this report, but I will be bringing enrol, train and organise volunteers in case forward a very small amendment to the • of emergencies and to pay them such out- Bill as it is printed. of-pocket expenses as may be approved by the Treasurer." I do hope that when we Mr. MacLeod: Mr. Speaker, I sincerely are producing this legislation that we leave hope when this thing goes through and this it sufficiently flexible so that the words "for Committee and those people are formed use" can be put in there. In other words, that they will do quite a lot of practising, the paragraph would read: "To enrol, train because that is the one thing that is required and organise volunteers for use in case of in this field. If you remember Summerland, emergency . . ." because it would be no and everybody knows this, the hospital was good having legislation going forward, geared for all kinds of accidents, and things because you know what would happen, if it like that, except a disaster by fire. Nobody went forward saying that it would be done ever thought about that until the last in case of emergency, then it would not be minute, and then they were faced with the done before the emergency arose. There- thing out of the blue, but they coped with fore you have got to have them trained in it 100 per cent. without question. Some of advance, and I think it is essential that if the things that I would like to see wiped any Bill of this nature does go forward - away is the red tape so that people in and I should certainly support such a Bill hospital will be able to say straight away, -- I think that it must be kept flexible to we will send for a burns expert who can allow for the fact of the original intention, get a 'plane immediately, and not go that it was to have a co-ordination process messing about asking this Committee or which, as the hon. and gallant member for that Committee. Peel so rightly suggests, is far better under the control of the specialists, and with The Speaker: Surely that does not happen? some body such as he has mentioned. It would obviously seem to me, as is said in Mr. MacLeod: Is it out of order? this report, to be the ideal solution. While you have that co-ordination going on, you The Speaker: No, it is not out of order. also have the training of volunteers and, if I am surprised it is happening. necessary, the enlisting of volunteers on a Mr. MacLeod: Well, now, the thing is if voluntary basis, naturally to encourage we have other disasters like that, the people people to be prepared to help their country who have this, they must train and train in this way. quite hard so that they will be able to cope Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, I think the when the thing comes along. As my col- Committee are to be congratulated on league, Mr. MacDonald, said, in Scotland producing an answer to a very difficult they were on the ball wholly and solely. problem as we saw it, I mean the produc- That is the thing that counts, practice, and tion of the original Bill, because there is they know exactly what they are going to no doubt about it the original Bill as it is do when the thing comes, and not like we placed in front of us is not going to get were, finding our way as we went along.

Civil Aid Services Board Bill—Bill Withdrawn on Reception of Committee Report. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K13

Mr. Irving: Were you hampered in your a Committee will help them to make hospital by referring to Committees in time certain that everybody is kept up to the of emergency? Is that the suggestion? mark. Thank you. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, as one who The Speaker: I will nut the resolution to was strongly opposed to the original Bill, the House, that the report of the Com- and as a member of this Committee, I am mittee be received. Those in favour please very pleased indeed that we did come say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The forward finally with the unanimous decision next stage with regard to this Bill will be on setting up a Committee of this nature. that the Bill will be re-printed and come I would not like this opportunity to pass before the House for consideration of without expressing our thanks to the Chief clauses, along with the appropriate amend- Constable and our Chief Fire Officer, with- ments that have been or are likely to be out whose advice I am certain we would tabled. have been still trying to find a solution to this problem. They have given us very true comments on the position as it is at the LANDLORD AND TENANT present moment. Although many people (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL may think that there is not co-ordination —CONSIDERATION OF COUNCIL within the forces of the Isle of Man, let me AMENDMENTS DEFERRED. reassure you right here and now that there The Speaker: We come now to the Land- definitely is, and that the police and the fire lord and Tenant (Miscellaneous Provisions) service and other combinations of other Bill which, of course, will be held over in authorities have this matter very firmly in the absence of its sponsor. hand, but this will help to strengthen the situation because we can now come back as members of this hon. House—back to the PERSONAL ESTATES House or back to Tynwald —and report on (PROHIBITION OF PUBLICATION what these heads of various departments AND BROADCASTING) BILL— want to do. I would like to thank them for SECOND READING AND CLAUSES the advice they have given to the Committee. APPROVED. Mr. Spittall: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: We turn next to Personal There is not a great deal to reply to on this. Estates (Prohibition of Publication and With reference to the remarks of my hon. Broadcasting) Bill 1975. It is for second and gallant and recently elevated friend, I reading and I call upon the hon. member would agree with him. We have got to for Ayre, Mr. Radcliffe. keep this flexible and I can see no reason why that should not be inserted in the Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, this Bill was Bill when it is printed. As for Sir Henry's produced following the suggestion of the amendment which he is proposing to bring Isle of Man Law Society that there should forward, I think we can probably include be a restriction on the publication of a that before it actually goes to press, which personal estate of a deceased person. Ad- might be an easier way of doing it. I was vocates were under pressure from numerous not really quite sure what the hon. member clients who, in the making of their wills for Glenfaba, Mr. MacLeod, was getting at, specifically requested that the details must but I do not see this Committee as being not be published. Examples were given, or the people who are going to chase up written across wills were the words "Please specialists in a hurry or in an emergency. do not publish." The publishing in the local I believe that is the responsibility of the press of full details of exactly how much Health Services Board who will be doing their recently lost relatives were worth their own job. I do agree entirely with the and just what he did with his money has hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Radcliffe. We, caused real distress in many families. There as a Committee, had great help from the have been instances where the large size of Chief Constable and from the Chief Fire the estate has brought along the sharks to Officer who are, of course, real experts in do their best to wheedle out of those who this field. I do feel that the setting un of have inherited what they possibly can. On

Landlord and Tenant (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill—Consideration of Council Amend- ments Deferred. — Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill— Second Reading and Clauses Approved. K14 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 the other hand, great embarrassment has X-rays at all times. Just because it was been caused when someone who has played accepted in the past that the publication of a prominent part in the community turns wills should be allowed as an exception to out to be worth much less than people the normal rules of privacy, that is no supposed, and the widow has to put up with reason why in the very different circum- many, many comments of patronising pity. stances of today this encroachment among Whether the estate is small or large it is a thousand others should be tolerated unless a matter of keen curiosity for all who love it is absolutely necessary, and that it cannot to pry into their neighbours' affairs. I agreed by any stretch of the imagination be held to take this Bill because I do not believe to be." That is also my personal impression. that the public has either a need or the I see no reason why, as I have already said, right to know what is basically private the public have any more right to know business between the party making the will what I or you, or anybody else, leave to and those who inherit. Morally it seems to our relatives or friends, whoever it may be. me that the general public has no more There have been numerous cases; there right or need to know the size of a man's was one not so very long ago, about a or woman's estate than it has to know the month or six weeks ago, I think, in the size of his bank balance, or the details of local press, where they gave every detail of his tax returns. I have heard it argued that what the will decided, each person or each it must not be made harder than it is at different charity, or each individual con- present for those who think that they may nected with the family in any way was to benefit from the will, or who may be owed receive from that estate. 1, personally, think from the estate, to get the information they this is entirely wrong and that is the reason need to pursue their claim. This genuine why I feel this Bill is worth due considera- need can easily be met when probate is tion, and I beg to move. granted. This Bill does not prevent inspec- Mr. Spittall: Mr. Speaker, I will second tion by members of the public of letters and reserve my remarks. of administration, and wills filed in the General Registry. It only prevents the Mr. MacDonald: I rise to oppose this general publication of the details for all Bill, Mr. Speaker, on two grounds. One. and sundry, shall I say, to gloat over. Hon. that I feel in this Island we are tending to members will be aware that there was such get more and more secretive legislation. As a Bill introduced in the House of Com- the hon. member for Ayre said, this is a mons and it got pretty short shrift, I am very old right for such press as existed in prepared to admit that. I think in reading the early days as far back as 1591, I think this matter of the reports and comments it was, 1598, for the public in general to made by the member in charge there, it was know. The main reason, I think, behind it, Sir Anthony Meyer, he did say — and I which the hon. member did not mention think this is worth referring to —"It will and which was mentioned in London, the no doubt be objected that wills have been main reason behind this is that auite often published in detail for a long time now there are people who could be, in fact, since 1598, to be precise, but we live in an interested in a will who would never get to age when privacy is every day subject to know about it if it was not published fresh intrusion. We all know far too many openly, people who would have rights under facts about one another, perhaps that is the will. This often happened in the early why we understand one another so little. days in the case of large families, broken- up families, in the days when elder sons What the press like to call investigative took over and the younger ones of the journalism, and what the rest of us would family were shipped out to find their living call snooping, is on the increase. That is elsewhere, they would never get to know. why it has become much more important to in fact, what probably, if they had been push back the frontier of privacy from the there to claim, could have been their due individual's doorstep. People have a right rights; and this can still happen today. In to keep something of themselves to them- fact, I believe there is a case at the moment selves however much the mass media would before the courts here in the Isle of Man like to have us all — themselves of course over this very issue. If these people had not excepted — exposed to the full glare of had the opportunity of seeing in a paper

Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill—Second Reading and Clauses Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K15

published somewhere-1 know it is said, Mr. MacLeod: Do not be too sure of well, why do they not troop round and have that! (Laughter.) a look in the Rolls Office, but they would Mr. MacDonald: I never know at all because perhaps they are do not think the sharks exist in the minds of the ordinary people. not in the Isle of Man. I believe in open- I think that sharks exist in certain places, ness in this, because I do not think any they can only exist in certain climates, in man once dead is sufficiently interested in a certain temperature of water, and we have what he has left and who he has left it to. got them here! (Laughter.) I do not think his children, really, are I do not think worried. 1 know some people may be, but anything like this is going to protect a man this sort of freedom 1 think is essential, from this type of individual, saying it is openness in all things. It may be that some going to be secret. I do not think that is feel that everything they have done, per- going to stop any of this information getting sonally or individually is a state secret or out. He also said that in one case, he their secret, and their secret only. But life believed, the widow was embarrassed by is not like this. This is going right against how little was left by a person involved in life as its exists. Nothing is secret today, public life. I would say this is to his great very, very little. If things were secret there credit. I believe it is not the aim of would be no need for Security of the Realm people in public life to leave large sums of Acts or signing the Official Secrets Act. money. If people practised what they Very, very little can be kept away from the preached, quite often they would have very little to leave. public, and it is better I think that things should be in the open than a hotch-potch Mr. MacLeod: You had better get appear. After all, Mr. Radcliffe himself has spending yours! (Laughter.) often said in here that certain things that are being published are scurrilous, and the Mr. MacDonald: I will make certain of press do this and do that. They do this that! I would have very little to leave. I do because of secrecy. What they cannot find not think it is any discredit to any man, and 0 out .they make up. What they cannot really neither should the widow be embarrassed honestly get from us or from a source that if the public know that that her husband is mailable to provide information, if they had served the community maybe for years cannot get that information, well then I and years, left nothing. After all, the greatest think you get a highly dangerous press be- of all men, I believe, left nothing at all. cause that press will then surmise, guess, So why try to hide things, why try to hide publish what they believe to be true—what things from the public. It is an old-estab- they believe to be true. You cannot blame ished practice, not only here but through- them if all around them they see a hedge out the world, and I think we should of secrecy. I see nothing wrong at all in the continue this practice. I think it is a retro- publication of wills. 1 admit there are times grade step to start creating one more veil of when perhaps it is overdone, but in all secrecy. What we did the other day in things there are times when certain issues another place on another issue has been are overdone. But because of the odd occa- more damaging to Tynwald than anything sion that causes hardship this should not that I ever remember or have read about, mean we should immediately rush to put and I would hate to continue doing this sort the veil of secrecy around our life and our of thing, or to be associated with it. existence and the way we work and live. Mr. Ward: Mr. Speaker, I am not going The hon. member for Ayre, I think he also to vote for this Bill. While I say that I am said that this would bring along the sharks. very conscious of the point that has been Good gracious me, who are the sharks in made about the poorer type of people. 1 am the Isle of Man? They are the very people quite conscious there can be odd occasions who suggested we hide it. Who are the when embarrassment can be caused. How- sharks? I do not think anybody in Peel will ever, I do not think for one moment that be running around to collect money that those are the sort of people who have was not his, or he had no entitlement to. been the instigators of this particular sort • I know the people who think they would of legislation. Perhaps 1 will tackle it on a get a "cut" out of it ... different level to that of the previous

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speaker. I look at this, perhaps, in an en- for dodgers, tax dodgers, con men and tirely different way because I would everything of every description. By that I suggest, gentlemen, that perhaps had this think you will realise, gentlemen, that I am sort of legislation been started or instigated speaking of a vintage native, if we can use perhaps some seven to ten years ago I do the term, and of the vintage residents, and not think anybody would have really lifted I think some of these things have got to an eyebrow at us. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, be said, otherwise I will probably be I question very much the necessity for this accused by some people in this House of particular legislation; indeed, sir, I would raking over the dirt. I think it has got to condemn it as utterly irrelevant to the be said because it does get said outside nation's needs and most certainly ill-timed and it is nice to air these things sometimes with regard to the present House. So much and not try to sweep them under the carpet. so, sir, that I would hope earnestly that it These folk have witnessed steady erosion will get no further than this present debate of their way of life, the almost complete and be turfed out as completely useless. In disappearance of many of their well-loved my opinion, Mr. Speaker, it can only serve landmarks, many of the paths and beauty to pile up more disrespect, more suspicions spots that they have trod from childhood and more bewilderment as to the motives have been barred by "No trespass" notices, and priorities of this hon. House. Having and even on the odd occasion by threats of condemned this Bill perhaps so roundly, Mr. violence. Speaker, I suppose it is only fair that I Mr. MacLeod: What has that got to do should put down some reasons why I and with publishing somebody's will? I hope a few more in this House have arrived at this conclusion. I think if I may Mr. Ward: Leave me to come to that. indulge, Mr. Speaker, perhaps we can arrive One of the reasons why all this happens is at one or two reasons why this suspicion that it has all been done in the name of and this bewilderment has arisen in the finance and speculation. These people who, minds of people outside this House. Let us as I say, are so anxious to protect their tax- make no bones about it, no matter how we deductible investments, these are the people try to make things whiter than white and who worry about this particular legislation, no matter how we may condemn things and in my view these are the people who that have been said and done, there has have instigated it. Many of our people have been happenings in the last 10 years in the had, and these are other reasons, many of Isle of Man that we cannot sweep under our people have had to stand by while the carpet. This is one of the reasons, in great slices of the Island were sold from my opinion, gentlemen, why I think that under their feet to all sorts of mysterious people, combines, in the name of finance this particular legislation has assumed in and speculation. They have been showered the minds as I say of people outside this and bewildered by dozens of stories and House a little bit more sinister attitude than perhaps it would have done previously. rumours that many of our top people have While I say that, please do not believe that been involved in some of these deals and I am assuming the role of mouthpiece for have been more confused than ever, and none of them were convincingly denied. organisations or people who, perhaps, in Eviction orders by "cowboy" landlords and another place last week were condemned as fly-by-night speculators have become ac- cranks or crackpots or whatever you may. cepted as commonplace until housing for Anyone, I think, who knows me, knows a our own people has become the most little bit better. What I am concerned of, agonising and heart-rending problem of the Mr. Speaker, is for the good name of our day. One could go on ad lib., I could read Island and its people, both the people who pages of this, Mr. Speaker. but it is not my were born and bred here and also the intention. people who have come here to live because they love the Isle of Man and because they Miss Cowin: Please do not. wanted to live and work amongst us and Mr. Ward: Maybe the truth hurts with because they have seen the Isle of Man as one or two of us. The reason I have quoted a haven, a peace haven, a place to relax all this is to try and illustrate that the in, as opposed to a tax haven, and a mecca people outside of this House, and I am not

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talking about Fo Halloo or nationalists, I years ago and 1 forbore to sell it because am talking about the everyday person in the was given the information that in all /A Isle of Man, and they have been consumed probability according to the person who by doubts and fears and bewilderment on made the offer the house would be sold what has been happening in the last couple shortly after for an increased price. 1 have of sessions of this particular Government not sold it and I have been at considerable in their efforts to bend over to make it easy loss. If you have anything to say to me, for the speculators and millionaires and say it. We speak with passion, as 1 do now, everything else. They can only see this when we are touched deeply. We speak particular type of legislation, as the hon. with passion about service to the com- member from Peel says, as one more little munity and the duty we owe to the obser- move to close the door to secrecy, and I vations of the wishes of that community. hope that we will not fall for this, gentle- I can understand the public interest. It men, and I hope that we will throw it out might be expected and indeed justified in right now. that we are someone who has put the public in the position of being beneficiaries under • Miss Cowin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It the will of a public-spirited deceased mem- is because of the great respect I have for ber of the community. In any other circum- the last speaker and because of his recent stance it is of little intrinsic value and the admission into this House that I forbore fact that this Bill is stirring up such from calling upon Standing Order 84 which opposition surely must have merit. says that "in the case of continued ir- relevance or tedious repetition on the part Mr. Cringle: Mr. Speaker, I would like of a member Mr. Speaker may caution to ask Mr. Radcliffe, the member for Ayre, such member". I think we need to look at who is in charge of this Bill, to clear up the purpose of the exercise which we are one or two points for me if he would, examining today, the publication of wills. please. The first one is basically in relation Is the purpose useful, is it information of to clause 3, and I know we have not reached public importance, or is it deleterious? Is it the clause stage of the Bill, but in relation • merely journalistic copy to fill the paper, to clause 3, it says "broadcast" means to is it the sort of silly season which so fre- broadcast by wireless telegraphy, etc., in quently occurs here in the Island where that paragraph and that includes the re- naturally we are short of news of weight or transmission of broadcast programmes re- importance? Certainly it can be said that ceived in the Isle of Man. I would just like this type of journalistic endeavour stirs up clarification on the Question of if a Liver- all the envy, jealousy and all uncharitable- pool paper were to publish the Manx wills, ness which lurks at the bottom of most would that paper be permitted to be sold people's minds. It has been said that a dead on the Isle of Man? In other words, is it man will not hear what happens after death possible that if this Bill gets through today but death does not end care for loved-ones. that there will actually become on the It is very often the last wish of the person Island a demand for the "Liverpool Daily who has died that the loved-ones may still Post", shall we say, who will publish a front page complete with the list? If it is • continue under protection. There are those who can guard discretion and those to true that a "Liverpool Daily Post" or any whom discretion is distasteful and each man paper printed on the other side could to his own method. It has been said that I publish a complete list of wills and sell must have been touched in a raw spot, but them in the Isle of Man, then really I feel I must say this, I stand here as a person that it is somewhat useless bringing in a who, alas, owns no land, but I certainly Bill which will stop our local press pub- lishing it. Although we may think that it have a house which I would love to get would be nice, and agree that it would be rid of. nice that they should not be published, if Mr. MacLeod: How much do you want in fact they can be re-transmitted into the for it? (Laughter.) Isle of Man either by another newspaper being sold here, or in fact by Border Tele- Miss Cowin: 1 must say this, that I was vision, or anyone picking out the main ones offered a very fair price for that house two and broadcasting them, well then 1 fail

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to see why this Bill should be brought time, but to be put on top of that into a before us. situation where something is put into the Mr. Anderson: Mr. Speaker, this is a paper which causes embarrassment can be measure on which 1 do not feel terribly very hurtful indeed. I think that it serves strongly one way or the other. I do want to no useful purpose. 1 know if this succeeds, make it perfectly clear, Mr. Speaker, for Mr. Speaker, it will not be a popular some reason or other it does appear that to measure because wherever you are in a be successful in business is no longer some- small community people love to know the thing which is to be appreciated. very latest news and all that is going on. In fact, I left the House because I promised Mr. MacDonald: They are. to let a constituent know the result of the election here this morning: people like to Mr. Anderson: Well, you see this is the know what is happening. There are things point of view always being put forward by which really are the problems of that a lot of people today. There is no question whatever that there are a lot of people person himself. Surely whether a person is who do a good and honourable job in the successful or not it should be the pre- Isle of Man in the business world and rogative of that family to make the decision consequently help a lot of other people in whether or not that will should be pub- the process of doing it, and to have actually lished and that we will not deny if they been successful is nothing detrimental to wish to do. I think there is some merit in that individual provided he has done it supporting it. I am not terribly excited honestly and straightforwardly. Let us get about the measure, but I can see advantages that fair and square. There may be some more than disadvantages in it and I think I will vote for it. people who are sharks, but on this Island I would say that the vast majority of people Mr. Moore: Mi. Speaker, nor am I are honourable and decent business people terribly interested in this sort of legislation. who do a good job. It is a personal thing 1 think it is an unimportant issue that we — some people live all their lives ap- are wasting time on at a time when we parently to have an obituary written when have so much legislation in front of us, they have passed on to say they have been but all I am going to say is I will not very successful. To me it does not really support this particular Bill. There is a very matter to whom I leave my overdraft, it is specific reason. I believe in the freedom of immaterial as far as I am concerned, but the press and I believe that if there is any- I can see that there could be circumstances thing of interest, and we are nosey-parkers where the publication of details of the will at heart, if there is anything of interest that could be a very great embarrassment, not the public should know, well let them know because of the quantity, but because they it. I, at the same time, do deprecate the know the beneficiaries in that. I do not method by which some of the local news- want to go into any detail. People can papers publish every halfpenny — wills of come to their own conclusions, but there £1,000 being published in this day and age. have been embarrassing situations for It is such utterly irresponsible, ridiculous people which need not of necessity even news items that how they ever allow them have occurred. I think that this legislation, to go in front of the public is just beyond as I understand, enables a person, if they comprehension. The things that are of are approached, they can say, "Well, I do interest to us we should not hide them. not mind whether you publish it or not," If somebody, and I come back to the hon. but it also gives them the right to say no, member for Glenfaba, if somebody leaves they would prefer it not to be. £25,000 or £30,000 and he has been a good Mr. MacDonald: They will be dead, will businessman, I think everybody would pat they not? his relatives on the back and say, "A good fellow, he has done a good job, a good Mr. Anderson: Let us take the situation businessman, and the best of luck to him" — very often it is, it may be immature, I — but the fact that somebody has left a know it has got to come to us all, but it thousand pounds to receive a little column can be a difficult time for those who are in the paper about it is absolutely and left behind, a very sad and very difficult utterly ridiculous in my opinion. If the press

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would use their heads and print news- of the general public that you should not worthy items, 1 do not think we would get have this freedom any more." Could we down to the stage of discussing this par- possibly say today that it is in the interest ticular item. I will oppose this Bill because of the public of the Isle if Man that a I believe in the freedom of the press, but person cannot keep secret, after he dies, I do wish the press would pull their socks how much money he has got? Why should up and publish items which are news- it be? We agree when a man is alive he is worthy. entitled to keep to himself the amount of his bank balance and what money he has Mr. Spittall: Mr. Speaker, I will support this Bill because although I believe in the got and so on, but then the suggestion is freedom of the press I also believe very that when he dies all the private business of strongly in the right of every individual to his family should become public. I see in his own privacy. The suggestion of the hon. this, sir, one thing only, a return to the member for Peel that publishing a will may right of privacy in this sort of matter, and bring something to light, somebody gets that is why I am interested in it. 1 may be something they would not otherwise have accused by people saying, "Oh, you are protecting the sharks," and so on, but it got I think is rather far-fetched. After all the administrators of the will are the people does not matter. who will find out who is entitled. Mr. MacDonald: Can I ask, Mr. Speaker, Mr. MacDonald: Who he owes money to? the hon. member how you return to what How do they do it? If a man owes me never existed? money and he dies and leaves £10,000 I will Mr. Irving: A return to privacy — it not know. (Interruptions.) obviously existed hundreds and hundreds of years ago, •of course, because there were not Mr. Spittall: I believe publishing wills serves absolutely no purpose at all apart publications for a start, there were not newspapers to publish these sorts of things from our own curiosity, and as such I shall and I say this is a return to privacy, privacy vote for this. in this particular connection. In the United 4 Mr. Irving: Mr. Speaker, sir, we have Kingdom we see the publication of wills. heard about finance speculation, sharks and They are generally of large amounts which so on, we have heard a suggestion that this are of general public interest, but in the Bill has been brought forward purely to Isle of Man, in a small community, we see protect people who may have made money, the fact that Mr. So-and-so left £1,000. In perhaps not illegally, perhaps in ways that the United Kingdom there is estate duty or we do not altogether approve of, and the capital transfer tax. There is too, sir, capital purpose of this Bill is to hide the fact that transfer tax in the Isle of Man. I am sure they made this money and have left it. This, the British Treasury would like to see the to my mind, sir, is complete rubbish. There continuation of publication of wills in Isle is one simple issue before us today. It is of Man papers but, sir, they do not mean one that some hon. members may feel tired a thing. It is possible for any hon. member of me "flogging" and that is the duty of of this House, by paying a couple of pounds the politician nowadays to protect the more, to have it put in the paper that his individual. The liberty of the individual is estate did not exceed £10 million —did not being whittled away day after day by legis- exceed £10 million. There is nothing to lation, by orders, by regulations and so on, stop this. One merely has to say that the on and on, and I believe one of the greatest estate did not exceed a certain figure. It is duties of a modern politician is to prevent not an offence to say £10 million if you that whittling away as far as he can. I can afford the extra £2 or £3 it costs for believe that part of the liberty of the probate because the sum is so high. So individual is his right to privacy and I there we are. We see that the whole thing believe people have a right to privacy. We is quite ridiculous. It does not really show find in certain cases in other countries, even the true position because there can be more than in the United Kingdom and the claims on any estate shown in the paper Isle of Man, we see this taking away of the which would wipe out the estate as shown. liberty of the subject by saying: "This is in I would say to hon. members that even the interest of the state. It is in the interest though there is national demand not to

Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill—Second Reading and Clauses Approved. K20 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 censor the press, I think it is desirable that paupers. It is a matter for ourselves how we try to preserve the privacy of the indi- we live this life. I have spoken to some of vidual and say, "No more wills will be the old farmers of days gone by to whom published in local papers. If anybody is it was a tremendous difficulty to leave any- interested enough let them go to the Rolls thing for their family, and yet they almost Office." Obviously, if the papers wish to starved themselves in order to do so continue it is their wish to give a lot of through a particular sense of pride. I could local "skeets" private information which is almost picture it like this, that there they none of their business. were riding on the clouds to look down Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Speaker, I think the while others said, fancy old So-and-so has last member hit the nail on the head. He is been able to leave this. That kind of thing talking about the liberty of the individual nobody is going to sort of quarrel about. and the privacy of the individual, but the Equally there are others— one particular whole point, Mr. Speaker, is that that old gentleman had saved very carefully so person is dead, he is not here for his privacy that his family could benefit when it was to be interfered with. As there have been time for him to leave this planet. I can say • implications recently that we legislators that when he reached the 60 mark he have arranged one thing for ourselves and thought it was time to share what he owned. another thing for other people by making He was able to trust the members of his the register of our affairs private and, in my family and what he had he passed it out to case, voting against this Bill, Miss Cowin, the whole lot of them, and as a net result the member for East Douglas, brought out of that he was left with — shall we say it very clearly in another place that if the was dishonest of him to claim an old-age register of their business affairs was pub- pension and also a supplementary benefit - lished we would discourage people from looking at his accounts there was just coming into public life. I agree with her nothing there, but the family did all right. and that is the reason why I personally Now no newspaper could declare that. voted against the register being made public. Equally I have been associated with people This I feel is different. We have all been from time to time that made it necessary looking at the uncharitable side of human to visit the Registry Office and, of course, nature, but there is a very compassionate so far as the estate was concerned you used side and there are many organisations and, the phrase that has already been used this indeed, people who pay attention and take morning that the estate does not exceed heed of what they read about the amount such-and-such a quantity. Actually what left by people, and they go out of their way was left was far, far less than anything that to mitigate the hardship of widows and was there. This was pride in death. In children of people who have been left worse addition to that, too, someone may have off than they expected. I think people are genuinely left £40,000 and perhaps the week sympathetic. I believe that on balance it before he had lost £39,000 of it down at the helps society to know those of us who are Casino or somewhere like that, and there not as well off as others. One of the main we are. We can make all kinds of pictures reasons for my voting against this Bill is in relation to wills. If I could just put a that I believe this will affect the image of personal note in here it would simply be • the Island. It is another matter in which to the effect that there are a lot of humble we are restrictive and I believe the freedom people in this Island who, not through of the press is all-important. wishing to earn a bit of money, but simply because they happen to love somebody who Mr. Hislop: Mr. Speaker, so much can is a very wealthy person and, in course of be said on both sides in relation to the Bill time, the connection is broken and we find which is before us. May I just, as one who will never be afraid to have anything pub- there has been left to somebody by some- lished after death, say that in my lifetime body some little kind of token of acknow- I have talked to people in the Island, been ledgement of the services they rendered. associated with them, those who had made What I will plead is this, that our news- a tremendous financial success of their lives, papers so far as they are doing any kind equally there were others who were in of investigation into wills that they would receipt of similar income but died almost avoid the kind of little things like that, they s.

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can cause an awful lot of discomfort and members of the family that are concerned disappointment to many people. If they wer with it, at the request of the lawyer it is were to be quite objective in what was entered in this particular book in red and being stated. I appreciate the ideas which when the press go to get the information prompted this Bill, but I do believe that about the various wills that are up for with what has been said here this morning publication the one which is marked in red by various hon. members, that perhaps the — i.t is a point of importance to them in press themselves could be trusted to take their code of conduct — is always respected, another look at this and in future to be a the one in red is the request to the press little bit more careful in their publications. not to publish this particular will. He said I believe myself they are individuals like he had been in his profession for many we are, they are people with a sense of years and he had never known it to be justice, and despite the fact they have got broken. So on the strength of that informa- to sell their newspapers they might take tion I cannot see the necessity of this notice of it. I shall oppose the Bill. particular Bill in any shape or form, and I regret that I am not going to support it. The Speaker: This would appear to be, hon. members, an appropriate stage at Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Speaker, I believe also which to adjourn, and the House will now in the freedom of the press, but what we stand adjourned until 2.30. The hon. mem- are gaining by this I am not sure in the ber for Middle, Mr. Ranson, has caught my sense that if a will is published — I do not eye and will have the floor at that stage. think it is of any great interest to many people unless it is a very large sum. 1 The House adjourned for lunch. always found the press very helpful in matters—I had an occasion at one time, some years back, a widow approached me PERSONAL ESTATES to see could I do anything to keep this (PROHIBITION OF PUBLICATION out of the paper, so I approached the press on the matter and I must say they were AND BROADCASTING) BILL— very sympathetic and the will did not DEBATE CONTINUED. appear in the paper. Although they did not give me any promise at the time the will The Speaker: We will continue with the debate on the Personal Estates (Prohibition was not published. I think really when wills of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill and are published it does not give a true I call upon the hon. member for Middle, account of what the person has, it only Mr. Ranson. gives part of the estate, it only gives the personal estate, the real estate is not men- Mr. Ranson: Mr. Speaker, I must confess tioned. Those people with a large amount that I did no deep thinking about this Bill of money are not likely to have it in per- really one way or the other, but I was very sonal estate, they are more likely to have impressed by the points raised by Mr. Mac- it in real estate, so I do not certainly see Donald, the hon. member from Rushen and much point in this being published really. also the points made by the hon. member I am going to support this Bill today. from Castletown, and it is on more or less Mrs. Hanson: Mr. Speaker, when I came the strength of those remarks that I have to this House today I must confess I came decided not to support this Bill. During the with a very open mind about this Bill. I interval of the lunch-break I was fortunate had no confirmed ideas about it at all and enough to meet one of the reporters that I have listened to the debate for and against frequent this Chamber from time to time and there is great merit for and there is and he asked me what stage we had reached great merit against. As it was said the wills and I told him, and he said, "Well, this is we see published in the paper, they are not extraordinary because actually there is a usually the true total of the deceased's book in existence known as the "Testa- means because land and property is not mentrix", I think that was the word he used, included, only personal estate. Great em- and i.t is in this particular book, at the phasis has been made today on large estates, request of the deceased when he was giving large estates, but I would like to let us think the money in the will, or even of the about small ones. In my constituency we

Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill—Debate Continued. K22 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 have been very interested in this. In fact, 1 Douglas for what he said this morning, took this Bill yesterday to a meeting of because 1, for one, I have never traded in ladies and asked them to give me their land or houses or anything. I have built honest opinion about it. What did they houses and all that, but I know for a fact ... honestly think. You know that, talking Mr. Ward: Who said you did? about women, when the husband dies and Mr. Creer: You said the House. 1 know they are left a widow—if the estate is small, for a fact, MT. Speaker, there is not one and I think there is nothing detrimental member in this Government who has done about that, some people start with more, anything over the last 10 or 12 years, the and others have to work for it all — when 14 years that I have been in this House that they see a small amount in the paper it 1 am ashamed of. I am pretty certain that hurts them a little. They feel it. The thing has gone out throughout the Island. For that I would like to see in a Bill, perhaps him to say this morning what he did say. another Bill could be drafted, and that is and him being a member of Douglas Town nothing under say £10,000 or £20,000 to be Council before he came into this place, to published. The people are only interested slate us — he should have thought about his in the big estates — in any case when a big own house and put his own house in order estate is published in the paper the Liver- first. The Douglas Town Council over the pool papers will pick it up because it is last ten years, when you were in it. news value, and we will soon know about it. The thing I do think is wrong is the Mr. Ward: On a point of order, Mr. individual bequests being published in the Speaker, what has the Douglas Town paper. I did hear of one case where a lady, Council got to do with what I have said? her husband died, she did not know what Mr. Creer: It has just got as much to do was in the will and she was very sur- with what you said this morning as what prised in the will when she found that a I am saying now. bequest was made to another lady. This A Member: Are making allegations? bequest was published in the paper and it Mr. Creer: Allegations. I am saying now caused very great unhappiness to the widow. that he should have included the Town It can happen. I have a very great regard • Council in his allegations. You have got for the freedom of the press, make no Summerland, you have got all this stuff mistake about that, 1 do, but I also have going on, councillors doing work for Dou- regard for the freedom of the individual. glas Corporation, you have done nothing To be honest, I see great merit in for and about that, but you slate the House of Keys. against and it is very hard for me to decide which way to vote: I will be auite honest Mr. Ward: Was I telling a lie, Mr. about it. Speaker? Mr. Creer: I say you were. Mr. Creer: Mr. Speaker, I will be brief. I was not going to say anything at all about The Speaker: As far as the statement this Bill, but after hearing the hon. mem- made this morning is concerned 1 regard it ber for South Douglas this morning I as being in order. 1 did not think there was thought I had better say something. I do any imputation of improper motives at the not know which way I will vote on it. I time. Do you wish to reply, sir? will wait for Mr. Radcliffe's reply before Mr. Radcliffe: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I make up my mind whether I am going to First of all I would just like to comment support the Bill or vote against it. What I on the comments made by one or two of am about to say, Mr. Speaker, is that I the latter speakers who have spoken on was disgusted with the hon. member his this Bill. I think it is very important for us signature on the form entering him into the to bear in mind the title of this Bill, it says House of Keys is hardly dry—to slate this "personal estates". With due respect to the House as he did this morning on corrup- hon. member for South Douglas, who 1 tion and all sorts of ways he was going on, admire and I think he is doing Quite a good he went on in a long speech and I think job for his constituency in this House, I felt that this Bill has done something good at times that he was trying to imply that about that — it has come out into the open. what we were doing in this hon. House at I am surprised at the member for South this moment was that we, as members, were •

Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill--Debate Continued. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K23 trying to introduce some form of legislation would be acceptable that the name and that was trying to protect ourselves. Let address of the deceased person would be me state quite categorically here and now printed in the paper and where the will can that, as far as I am concerned, such a thing be examined and if anybody has an interest never entered my head. When this Bill came therein it is easy enough, if they so desire, to Executive Council, and it came from the to find out whether or not they are entitled Law Society of the Isle of Man ... to anything or whether there was any A Member: They are a fine lot! money in the estate to pay their accounts. There is no possible problem about getting Mr. Radcliffe: It came from them — well the details of the will if it is really required. you can speak derogatorily of anyone you Many of the members have said that they wish; I would like to know the facts before feel lukewarm about this. To me, I feel that I speak derogatorily about anybody. I was if you are inclined to think that way re- impressed by the case they made at the garding this Bill you should bear in mind time to institute the legislation and they whether or not you know of instances where emphasised to us that on numerous occa- this has happened to individual people and sions they were being asked by clients when whether or not you think it is correct. As they were attending to their wills to try if the hon. member, Mr. Irvine, mentioned possible not to give the details of it. I do earlier, whether or not there should be a not want to elaborate on cases—why 1 certain amount of nrotection for the private said and I said earlier this morning, when lives of people and this is why I feel that it was mentioned and somebody said who is this is very important. Going back to the prepared to take this Bill, I immediately hon. member for South Douglas, who made said I would because I had a very good such a strong attack on the Bill, I do think example given to me of a case very much that we, in this House, have to look at the on a similar line, as it happens, to the one fact that continually we are, shall we the hon. member, Mrs. Hanson, has re- say, under scrutiny from the general public ferred to, where every detail of a will was in what we are trying to do and the implica- published in the paper and the widow was so tion being that we are trying to protect disheartened and so upset about it that she ourselves. Our job in his hon. Chamber, as was next thing, and this is quite honest and I see it, is to look after the goodwill of the frank, she was next thing going to commit people that we are here to represent. I suicide about it because she had no idea would think a great number of people today of what the implications were regarding the have great concern about having their details that were given in the will. This is private lives investigated and put before the why I feel, and 1 have heard the hon. public in the way it is being done on many member, Mr. Ranson, refer to this little red occasions. Freedom of the press, yes by book — I will be quite honest, I have never all means. I contact the press, I suppose, heard of it. I am almost certain that if there and the press contact me as much as is such a thing, there are times, with due possibly any other member of this House, respect to anybody who is looking for news, and if I get any information that I think there are times when this red book, and is news I am very happy then to give it to the secrecy must be ignored because this them. I still think on this occasion we example I have just mentioned is a glaring should be, for legislation of this kind, example of a thing that never should have prepared to say let us draw a line here. been published in the mess. Whether or Regardless of whether in the United King- not the Bill goes through today, 1 am very dom they threw the Bill out or not, I do not pleased indeed that so many members have think we are here to consider that, we are shown such interest, they have participated here to look after the people of the Isle of in the debate and possibly, whether or not it goes through, there will be some good Man and this is why I feel very strongly that this Bill should be supported. 1 think forthcoming from it. Having said that, I would emphasise also some of the points, most of the comments that were made by or elaborate on some of the points that hon. members were on the effect of it. One have been made. Mr. MacDonald referred hon. member, the hon. member for Rushen, to people getting to know about the situa- Mr. Cringle, referred to the fact that, tion. When probate of a will is granted it possibly, you could put in public either

Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill—Debate Continued. K24 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975

through the British Broadcasting Corpora- written consent of that person's personal tion, shall we say, broadcasting or through representative, or if there be more than one the English press this reaction to Manx wills personal representative, one such repre- being published. This is quite true. We have sentative. Sub-clause (2) says if a sum is, no power within the Isle of Man to debar, or the particulars of a will are, published in shall we say, radio stations in the United a newspaper or broadcast in contravention Kingdom transmitting to the Isle of Man of this section, the following persons, that news regarding wills, neither can we stop is to say— (a) in the case of a publication the English press from doing it. Are you of a sum or of the provisions of a will in really saying that within the Isle of Man a newspaper, any proprietor, editor or pub- people are specifically going to buy English lisher of the newspaper; and in (b) in the papers to find out what Mrs. Smith or their case of the broadcast of a sum or of the neighbour left in a will? I doubt it very provisions of a will, any body corporate much indeed, but I doubt very much on the which transmits or provides the programme other hand if there is one household in the in which the sum is, or the particulars are, Isle of Man that does not buy not only one broadcast and any person having functions but two or three various copies of the Manx in relation to the programme corresponding press. I certainly think, as I have already to those of the editor of a newspaper, shall said, that these people are entitled to their be liable on summary conviction to a fine not private lives and we should support them, exceeding £400. I think if hon. members so and I beg to move. desire — it is quite a lengthy detailed clause and I could take you through it all — but I The Speaker: The resolution, hon. mem- am certain you are all aware of the details bers, is that the Personal Estates (Prohibi- of it. You have the Bill in front •of you and tion of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill there is not much point in me, I think, be now read a second time. Those in favour taking it word by word and reading every please say aye; against, no. clause. I think the effect of it is quite clear, A division was called for and voting I mentioned it in my preliminary remarks, resulted as follows— and I beg to move clause I stands part of the Bill. For: Messrs. Anderson, MacLeod, Ker- Mr. Spittall: I beg to second. meen, Radcliffe, Miss Thornton-Dues- bery, Messrs. Creer, Spittall, Crellin, Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, I rise to Irving, Miss Cowin, Mr. Devereau, oppose this Bill purely on the grounds that Mrs. Hanson, and Sir Henry Sugden I think it is once again another nail that — 13. certain people seem to be wishing to drive into the coffin of freedom in this Island. Against: Messrs. Ranson, Faragher, I know, Mr. Speaker, that this is only one Cringle, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Moore, small item, but recently we have had a Ward, MacDonald, Hislop and the whole spate of things, restrict this, let the Speaker — 9. public not know that, and the public are The Speaker: The resolution carries, 13 not entitled to know this because we think votes being cast in favour, nine votes we know better. We think we know better against. Clauses. Clause 1. than the public, in fact the public recently I discovered only last week are not even to Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, clause 1 as be consulted any more. Things are brought the hon. members will read, is the pro- forward — they are not even to be con- hibition of the publication and broadcasting sulted any more as Mrs. Hanson herself, the of particulars of personal estates. It says hon. member for Douglas West, said this that (I) subject to subsections (4) and (7) morning, things are raised and brought below it shall not be lawful to publish in before us which have never appeared in a newspaper or to broadcast (a) any sum front of the public and we are asked to as being the value of the personal estate of decide in the public name before we even a deceased person; or (b) where a person have a chance to discuss it with the public. dies testate, the provisions of that person's will in so far as they relate to the distri- A Member: Could we have a sample of bution of his personal estate, without the that?

Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill—Debate Continued. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K25

Mr. MacDonald: Yes, Summerland, last to what has been said, but I honestly do week, Summerland, and your constituents not think that someone up in another place 4 would want to know about it. is the slightest bit interested. (Interruption.) Yes, the widow at Ronague. I am quite That is right, quite right. Mrs. Hanson: convinced, Mr. Speaker, that this sort of Mr. MacDonald: We are getting one after legislation, restrictive legislation, in any another of this type of restrictive legisla- democracy is bad. It is very bad. tion. I think, you know, I was only saying, Mr. Irving: Like the protection of wrecks. Mr. Speaker, before I came in, to another (Laughter.) hon. member of the House, these are the Mr. MacDonald: No sir, no sir, no, no, sort of things that once occurred in another the protection of wrecks, let us face it, was place where they introduced enabling Bills to stop the very sharks someone was talking and within two years freedom was gone about this morning getting in on the act. completely. Once you start this sort of legis- You have already had cases in other places lation, where do you stop? Just where do where this has occurred, where the sharks you stop the restriction? We will now be get in on the act and you were saying this looking for another means for not telling morning this was supposed to protect people the public something else, or not letting the from sharks, and I said, "Where are these public have access to information in another sharks?" I do not think they are living in way. 1 think that any member who, at the houses in the Isle of Man, they are in a end, is gaily, happily going on and voting certain street possibly, but they are not for this bit of paper, I think, Mr. Speaker, living in the houses all round the Isle of should very carefully weigh up exactly what Man. I do think, Mr. Speaker, the time has he is doing. It may be that—all right he says, oh, but I am protecting an old widow come when someone should give a warning that this restrictive legislation is in fact the living out at Ronague. If we are going to very negation of democracy and a very do this in the case of all old widows there assault on the freedom of the people as a is every reason that we can possibly think whole and on the press which I think must • of they should be protected and a veil put be left completely free, completely free. If around them. We will be protecting the public of this Island from everything and they are wrong, all right take action for they do not need protection. I think, Mr. libel. If they make mistakes all right, go to Speaker, that the press itself, I hope they town on them, but leave them free to are, and I think the press are slowly but decide. They :are not perfect I know, but surely getting to realise what is happening better to have an imperfect nress than a controlled press. and that people are beginning to realise what is happening slowly but surely to Mr. Faragher: Mr. Speaker, I cannot, just the freedom of the press, and that free press cannot support this Bill, especially clause I is in some cases, I think, I believe is more where it says "shall be liable on summary important than the freedom of any odd conviction to a fine not exceeding £400". individual. If you are talking of the freedom Surely this is buying an expensive bucket of the people as a whole then it is a different with no bottom in it. Look at it whichever matter, but the odd cases that get quoted way you like— I think the message has got to me do not justify bringing in legislation, home to the press very, very clearly at the to place embargoes or to place restrictions moment, the thoughts around this House, on the press's right to publish what it but if you are going to make it where you believes to be true and fact. Here we are can be fined £400 in some paper or — for publishing something in the press, magazine or other in this Island and yet at summary conviction of a fine not exceeding the same time the "Liverpool Daily Post" £400. I think, Mr. Speaker, that we are in can come in with that very same thing on fact beginning to introduce into the Isle of your table, I think this is absolutely Man things which I am quite certain people ridiculous. I think it should be thrown out in the end will realise were not to their lock, stock and barrel. benefit or not for their benefit but, in fact, Mr. Devereau: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, are for the benefit of a very, very few I am sorry I arrived late for this debate • people. I do not think, and I have listened because I wanted to speak on the original

Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill—Debate Continued. K26 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975

motion, but I can speak just the same on Mr. MacLeod: My hon. friend here, Mr. this clause. A lot of discussion was made MacDonald, gets up and talks about all the this morning on privacy. Are we referring secrets and things that are let out and the to privacy of the deceased or the privacy very people who are hunting the witch-hunt of the legatees? To my mind the privacy are the people who belong to some secret of the legatees is important, I do not want society called "Fo Halloo"—not Foo Halloo everybody to know that £100 was left to me as some people call it. Foo Halloo is that in somebody's will and it is not their thing that an Englishman shouts when he concern. sees a fox. (Laughter.) He will know that every member of this House gets a publica- Mr. MacDonald: Why not? tion periodically through the postbox by Mr. Devereau: The other reason I am these people, nobody knows who they are, supporting this Bill is this, that more often and they do not put any names on them or than not the information published by the anything else, making all kinds of state- press is completely and utterly wrong. ments which you cannot refute because Everybody in this hon. House can remem- you do not know who they are. We have ber the case of the will of the late Mr. got an idea who some of them are, at least Forrester who died and left his money to I have. various legatees, leaving them sums in tens Mr. Ward: I hope you are not looking and hundreds of thousands of pounds which at me. (Laughter.) he did not even have. These sums were published in the papers. This is completely Mr. MacLeod: The fact of the matter is and utterly wrong and I do not think the this that the thing that is published in the papers should have the right to put these paper anyway with regard to other people's people in this position of having almost to money is invariably not correct. Why apologise . . . publish it. Who wants to know if John Thompson left £20,000, or what business is Mr. MacDonald: But they have recourse it of anybody to know if he left so much to the courts. money to somebody? It is nobody's business The Speaker: The hon. member has the but theirs. I mean they have no right to floor. enter it in the press and say So-and-so left so much money to somebody. As somebody Mr. Devereau: . . . for the will of their said this morning, there was a bit of a ancestor. This is completely and utterly rumpus because some man left some money wrong. I would support this Bill because I to another woman and then the widow got think it is completely unnecessary for the very angry — she may have been more newspapers to have the freedom, if this is obliging than the other one anyway. what it is, to publish facts which are so (Laughter.) The whole fact of the matter is I utterly, in nine cases out of ten, wrong. this that we are not prepared to try and can give you cases in fact. I do not know protect a member of the House of Keys ought to or not — where some- whether I because when I look round them I do not one close to me died and my attorney said think they are all that prosperous and have what shall we publish as his estate? The that much money in the bank or anything figure the attorney and I agreed was the else that they need very much to worry figure was published in the paper com- about whether their wills are published or pletely and utterly false, no relation to not. We are not here to protect the mem- facts at all. bers of the Keys. When we are talking Mr. MacDonald: What were you worried about publishing the wills we are not about then? Why did you give him the specifically thinking about ourselves, but facts then. thinking about the people outside. People outside have been to me and asked me and The Speaker: Would the hon. member for said, well, do what you can about this, try Peel please refrain from interrupting. and get the Bill put through so that they Mr. Devereau: Unless the press can pro- will not be trailing our names through the duce and print true facts, what is the point mud about this, that and the next thing. of them printing at all? I would oppose it. They make some queer statements—there

Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill—Debate Continued. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K27 was a statement made this morning about representative." I have been appalled over some illegal things which were done in the the years by the inexactitude of what is House— I do not know what they were. published with regard to the wills of People when they make statements like that deceased people in the Isle of Man. What telling the truth that So-and-so sold the has been published, quite rightly, and I do house that did not belong to him, or some- not blame the press in any way for this, has thing like that, but if a man sells a house been a figure given to them representing for £2,000 and somebody later sells it for Manx personal estate which in many cases £10,000, good luck to the fellow who makes has no relation whatsoever to what the the £8,000. person has in fact left. What you have in the one case where, as my hon. colleague, Mr. Anderson: Mr. Speaker, I cannot for Mr. Devereau, pointed out, is a figure which the life of me see a great difference between is agreed upon as being a figure to put in this and the publication of the returns to the paper, which to my mind is a denial of the Assessor of Income Tax. What difference truth, something which is useless to the is there? There is no difference at all, it is person and is useless to the people of the just an intrusion into the privacy of the Island who read the press. That is on the individual. That is the top and bottom of one hand. On the other hand, if that person it. There is no difference whatever. We are has English personal estate, then the value all adamant that the returns to the Assessor of that English personal estate gives to the should be confidential, and this is a similar people about which one hon. member was situation. speaking this morning, the entirely wrong Miss Cowin: Mr. Speaker, we live in the view because they could have English times when cliches are the order of the day. personal estate far in excess of what is pub- I would take issue in relation to this use lished in the Manx press and the Manx of the phrase "the freedom of the press". press are merely publishing the information I will admit to the freedom of the press in which is given them. To my mind, if you relation to a statement of a lot of facts, have the permission of the person concerned fair or phoney, but the freedom of the to publish the information, then at least the press dates back to the time when the press information which will be published stands fought for the right to make comment on a chance of being true. As it is at the the policies of the nation. You are not going moment it stands every chance of being to tell me that £20,000 left by Mr. A. Smith false. For that reason I support the whole is a matter of policy of the nation, nor of clause I, in spite of the fact I think the should we use this phrase so casually, so member in charge of the Bill, at this stage, lightly. It is a nonsense. I would subscribe has dealt with only part 1(1), but I support fully to the fact that representations have the Bill. been made to many members of this House Members: No, he has dealt with it all. that people resent intrusion on their privacy. It is a matter to me of some lack of sensi- Mr. Crellin: You have dealt with them tivity when people can have no thought both. I support the whole. for bereaved relatives at a time when their Mr. Irving: bereavement is most hurtful to them, then Mr. Speaker, we did discuss earlier in Ihe debate the question of estates it is that the announcement is made in the being published in the newspaper of very paper. Let us view this point, let us view the whole matter sensibly, calmly and in high figures. If one looks at a newspaper in the United Kingdom the only estates they proportion to its true value. Here we have deal with are fairly substantial amounts and spent a considerable amount of time they tend to state death duties so much and chewing away at this ridiculous "gob- estate duty so much. We are concerned that stopper". in the Isle of Man people suffer a great Mr. Crellin: Mr. Speaker, I pin my faith deal of embarrassment by the publication in this clause, which I support on the last of very small amounts. I would like, Mr. part of clause 1(1) and that is to say "with- Speaker, for hon. members to note that the out the written consent of that person's two wills published on the front page of personal representative, or if there be more the "Isle of Man Times" today, one is for than one personal representative, one such £1,300 and the other is for £1,000.

Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill--Debate Continued. K28 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975

Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Speaker, an identical person's will and you have got to remem- Bill was recently rejected by the British ber it is not only the national papers but Parliament at Westminster. Has the Home all the local papers are our publishing Office commented on this Bill? world, then how can it be wrong for the Mr. Radcliffe: Yes. .people in the Island to know. If it is an invasion of the privacy in Britain then Mrs. Quayle: What do they say? Do they surely you could say the same for the Isle agree to it? The red book that interested of Man. Personally I do not think it is. me, or at least the red entry that Mr. They are prepared to — in fact they have Ranson referred to — I can well believe it thrown out the Bill dealing with this matter exists because this accounts for the fact that in England because they felt that there was some people's wills do not appear in the no invasion of privacy and I entirely agree. papers. I have always wondered why and so obviously there is a way if you do not The Speaker: Do you wish to reply, sir. want your will put in the paper, that you Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, listening to can make arrangements. I understood Mr. the hon. member who has just resumed her Radcliffe to say that he had never heard seat I wonder why we have a Government of this book. in the Isle of Man. She is as much as saying Mr. Radcliffe: I have never. to us if the United Kingdom Government decides to pass some legislation and decides Mrs. Quayle: Indeed the lawyers have to throw some legislation out we should do brought this Bill forward because I suppose exactly the same here. If this is the case the in their wisdom they have never heard of it sooner I get out of this House the better I either. One of the things that I think is will like it. interesting is that if you read—without sort of personal interest, because I do not Mrs. Quayle: No, the reason for it. know most of the people who leave all this Mr. Radcliffe: The reason for it, as I money — but if you read it as a social have already said, has been elaborated on document I believe it should help, for in- by many members — we are here to protect stance, us in this Chamber to form our and I think it is about time we took a policies. We have heard it said that, within stand to protect the privacy of the people the last week, or so, that architects are and the individual. The hon. member for charging too much. 1 have certainly heard Peel very flippantly made comment on it said that butchers are charging too much what would the deceased be concerned and I think that we have heard it said this about if it appeared in the press about what morning that we are worried about small he left and who he left it to. This, to me, businesses, and if you keep an eye on what is absolutely degrading to come from an people leave, people who have run small hon. member of this hon. House. businesses, I think it should give us a very good indication of what is going on in the Mr. MacDonald: What is degrading Island. It is our job in this Government to about that, it is a fact. cut the wage cake in a socially just way. Mr. Radcliffe: You are talking about This I firmly believe we are not doing, and people who are now dead and gone. I ani the only way we can tell whether we are talking about people who are left in the being socially just is by looking at the wills Isle of Man who are inheriting under in the paper and taking an overall assess- people's wills. ment of what we see before us. Going back to the British Bill that was rejected, the Mr. MacDonald: Are they worried? reason I understand that it was rejected Mr. Radcliffe: You have been long was that there is made public facts that enough in this hon. House to recollect I concern people. People that have emigrated, think, if you have got a good memory, as for instance, and we have a lot of Manx sometimes you have, where we have dis- living overseas read our papers and if they cussed the situation where certain members have any claim on an estate then they have of this hon. House had died and their wills an opportunity to saying so. I take tin Mr. have been published in the press and other MacDonald's point that if it is right for members of this hon. House have then the rest of Britain to know what is in a decided it is policy for this Government

Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill—Debate Continued. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K29

to either subscribe or introduce some kind happens to mention in what should be a of legislation so that these people can find free forum of the people, that Joe Soap left enough finance to carry out the normal pro- £22,000 then the Manx press are being told cedures of burial. If this is a good policy they must not publish that, if they do they to be made public in the Isle of Man —1 will be fined? think it is degrading, and I would like to Members: No, it is the other way round. thank the hon. members who have spoken in favour of this Bill and I would like to Mr. MacDonald: No, it is not. move clause I stands part of the Bill. Members: Read it, read it. The Speaker: The resolution, hon. mem- Mr. MacDonald: For the purpose of this bers is that clause 1 stands part of the Bill. Act but subject to subsection (2) below Those in favour please say aye; against, no. which is the amendment for proceedings A division was called for and voting before the Chief Registrar, for the purpose resulted as follows— of this Act but subject to subsection (2) below, which does not apply to (a), pro- For: Messrs. Anderson, MacLeod, Ker- ceedings in court shall include (a) any meen, Radcliffe, Miss Thornton-Dues- debate or proceedings in Tynwald or any bery, Messrs. Creer, Spittall, Crellin, Branch or any Committee thereof ... Irving, Miss Cowin, Mr. Devereau, Mr. Irving: They can publish that. Mrs. Hanson and Sir Henry Sugden — 13. Members: Read it. Read the first clause. Read (4). Against: Messrs. Ranson, Faragher, Cringle, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Moore, Mr. MacDonald: Of what, sir? Ward, MacDonald, Hislop and the The Speaker: I think, hon. members, the Speaker-9. hon. member is entitled to make -his case The Speaker: The clause carries. Clause 2. in his own way. You may dislike it, or you may enjoy it, but you must suffer it. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, in reference to clause 2 if 1 could just draw the hon. Mr. MacDonald: Clause 1 has been dis- members' attention, sub-clause (4) of clause cussed and passed. We have now got to a 1(b), where it refers to "if those matters new clause. 1 do not read in the preamble are disclosed during the proceedings in to this clause any reference to (4)(b) or court ". Then we turn to clause 2 where it any other paragraph of clause 1. This says: "For the purposes of this Act, but clearly says to me, (2)(1), for the purpose subject to subsection (2) below, proceedings of this Act as a whole but subject to sub- in court shall include (a) any debate or section (2) below proceedings in court shall proceedings in Tynwald or any Branch or include any debate or proceedings in Tyn- Committee thereof; and (b) proceedings at wald or any Branch or Committee thereof. an inquest held under the Coroners of I am now being told in fact this does not Inquests Act 1961. Sub-clause (2) says dis- mean anything. tinctly, "Notwithstanding section 26 of the Mr. Devereau: It does. It means that they Judicature Amendment Act 1921, pro- can be. * ceedings before the Chief Registrar under Mr. MacDonald: It says Tynwald is not section 18 of the said Act of 1921 shall not a court. Is this what you are trying to I beg to move be proceedings in court." tell me? that clause 2 stands part of the Bill. Mr. Devereau: It means it can be Mr. Spittall: I beg to second. disclosed. Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, 1 rise Mr. MacDonald: Where does it say it again to oppose this. This one, to me, is can be disclosed? absolutely amazing—now this is pushing your luck too far. Now we have got as the Mr. Devereau: (4) in clause 1, Mr. hon. member, he referred to (4)(b) of clause Speaker, says, "Nothing in this section 1, "if those matters are disclosed during the shall prohibit the publication in any news- proceedings in court"— have we now paper or the broadcasting of any of the reached the stage where the press sitting in matters referred to in paragraphs (a) and ft Tynwald listening to a debate, if someone (b) of subsection (1) above ..."

Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill—Debate Continued. K30 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975

Mr. MacDonald: Above, yes. the Governor and the Speaker of the House Mr. Devereau: . . . (a) after the expiration of Keys. I beg to move. of three years or (a) if those matters are Mr. Spittall: I beg to second. disclosed during the proceedings in court and this refers to this Court. Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, again I would oppose this because I feel that this Mr. MacDonald: Thank you. whole Bill is a move in the wrong direction. Mr. Radcliffe: I do not think, Mr. I feel that before this goes to Royal Assent Speaker, there is anything to reply to. I — I presume today you will get your 12 : 9 would thank the hon. member who has just vote here today — 1 think, as I said earlier, resumed his seat for replying for me. members should reflect on this that as we The Speaker: The resolution, therefore, have found out recently we do not, in fact, hon. members, is that clause 2 stands part have supreme power over legislation in the of the Bill. Those in favour please say aye; Isle of Man: let us get this quite clear in against, no. The ayes have it. Clause 3. our heads. All the little nails which we are driving in our own coffin, I think, with a Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, this says certain Government in another place could exactly what the interpretation of broad- possibly add up in toto, not individually, casting is. In this Act, except where the but could add up in toto to someone context otherwise requires, the following deciding we are no longer fit to govern expressions shall have the following anything, as slowly but surely we are taking meanings respectively, that is to say— away rights which have existed since time "broadcast" means to broadcast by wireless immemorial. Every time we do this, we telegraphy from any wireless station in the present cases. I see it in the press only this Isle of Man sounds or visual images in- week where someone is quoted as saying, tended for general reception but does not although 1 believe it, it may have been a include the re-transmission of broadcast wrong quote by the press, not the Manx programmes which are received in the Isle press this time, the press somewhere else, of Man, either by cable or wire or by wire- that over this very emotive issue before the less telegraphy, from outside the Isle of International Court, we may go U.D.I., you Man." That, I think, clarifies the situation know. These sort of things that are hap- which the hon. member for Rushen referred pening are very poor grounds to my mind, to this morning. "Newspaper" again, and and I am certain to the minds of most naturally it says includes any journal, Manxmen, fighting issues on very poor magazine or other periodical publication. grounds will get us nowhere but rapidly "Personal representative" has the meaning swallowed up. 1 think all these sort of assigned to it in the Administration of cases where restrictions are being placed Estates Act 1960, and "value" includes ap- on the freedom of the press, on the proximate and estimated value. I think that free expression of views, and hiding from is perfectly clear, even to the hon. member the public things that a public should know. for Peel, and 1 beg to move. because after all they nay for them —I Mrs. Quayle: Mr Speaker, I hope we are think all of these are bad government, bad all aware what a farcical situation we are legislation, and in the end could end up going to get ourselves into. with the destruction of what we hold most The Speaker: It is proposed and seconded dear, not the freedom of somebody's will that clause 3 stands part of the Bill. Those being published, but the freedom of the in favour please say aye; against, no. The Island as a whole. ayes have it. Clause 4. Mr. Devereau: Mr. Speaker, what the Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, this is just the hon. member said is perfectly true. We are short title and commencement. This Act here representing our people, the people in may be cited as the Personal Estates (Pro- our constituency, and I am perfectly con- hibition of Publication and Broadcasting) vinced when 1 am voting for this Bill that Act. (2) This Act shall come into operation I am voting for what the majority of the when the Royal Assent thereto has been people in my constituency think and want. by the Governor announced to Tynwald I would go so far as to say that this will and a certificate thereof has been signed by apply to the average person in the Isle of

Personal Estates (Prohibition of Publication and Broadcasting) Bill—Debate Continued. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K31

Man. They are sick and tired of seeing in HOME OFFICE COMMENTS public press details of people's wills, they ON BILLS. are sick and tired of seeing in the press publications relating to the sale of people's The Speaker: Hon. members, you talked properties. (Interruption.) All these I about freedom of operation, and the question whether they are items of real question has been raised this afternoon of news value or a bit more than nonsensical access to Home Office comments. You have garbage. been deprived of Home Office comments by the action of the Excutive Council who Mr. Creer: Mr. Speaker, I cannot see this have, in fact, for some time now insisted Bill interfering with the freedom of the that the House must not receive the Home press at all because the press only publish Office comment. (Interruptions.) Yes, and the information they are given. Some years you are a member of it. We do no longer ago ... get the Home Office comment, but I feel The Speaker: Hon. members, we are sure that if the House would wish to have dealing with clause 4. the comment available to it at any time, Mr. Creer: Some years ago there was a that the House's wishes will be respected. will published over here, and I think there So it is entirely a matter for the House. were about 20 charities who we:re left a Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, the Execu- certain amount of money. The Onchan tive Council have never discussed that, Commissioners were left one lot; the press actually, never since I have been on it. did not say what conditions there were in his will, but he left a parcel of land The Speaker: Perhaps, gentlemen, it was and an old building. These were the before you joined it. terms under the will which the public did not know. Mr. Devereau: I think, Mr. Speaker, that as we have to discuss and determine on The Speaker: Under Standing Orders these Bills it would be as well for us to you are out of order, I am sorry to say. have Home Office comments. Mr. Creer: I wish you would let me The Speaker: I am quite sure that that finish. (Laughter.) The Onchan Commis- would be the wish of the House. Is that sioners refused to accept this from this will, agreed? this parcel of land, a big building, and it was left to us on the conditions that we It was agreed. planted 400 trees a year until it was planted The Speaker: Thank you very much. I up. We had to employ the gardener for life will have it conveyed. Hon. members, that and keep the buildings in the same state of is another freedom revived. repair as they were—and we turned it down. So the press did not get to know what the will was, all they got to know was what was left to Onchan. It did not SUPPLY OF GOODS (IMPLIED say the conditions. TERMS) BILL—SECOND READING AND CLAUSES APPROVED. Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to ask, is it my right as a member to know The Speaker. We now have the Supply the Home Office comments on this Bill? of Goods (Implied Terms) Bill for second If so, may I ask the member if I could reading. I call upon the hon. member for have it before the third reading? Douglas North. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Speaker, in consulta- Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move tion with the legal draftsman at lunch-time, that the Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) I understand that all the requirements of Bill 1975 be now read a second time. In the Home Office have been cleared. so doing may I be permitted to give an The Speaker: The resolution, hon. mem- overall picture of this new legislation in bers, is that clause 4 stands part of the order that hon. members may appreciate Bill. Will those in favour please say aye; the necessity for amending the Sale of against, no. The ayes have it. The Bill is Goods Act 1895. It has become apparent read a second time. due to the modern trends in shopping that

Home Office Comments on Bills. —Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Bill—Second Reading and Clauses Approved. K32 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975

loopholes exist in the present Act, always Mr. Ranson: I beg to second and reserve remembering, of course, that we are my remarks. speaking about an Act that was brought in The Speaker: The resolution, then, hon. in 1895. For many years this law has given members, is that the Sale of Goods (Implied the buyer of goods certain rights, but in Terms) Bill be now read a second time. special cases these rights can be given up. Those in favour please say aye; against, no. For example, if a retailer exhibits such The ayes have it. Clauses, clause 1. notices as "no refunds", "sale goods not exchanged", and the consumer knowingly Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, in moving buys the goods, then he has agreed to give clause 1, firstly, this clause replaces section up his common law rights. This has also 14, as I have already said, of the Sale of led to the issue of guarantees by manu- Goods Act, and sets out the undertaking factureres whose sole purpose is to mislead as to title, possession and freedom from any the consumer into thinking that his rights encumbrances or burdens which are to be were less than the law allowed, thus implied in every contract of sale. The best offering a better manufacturers' guarantee way that I can illustrate this is not to go by signing and posting it off to the com- through the gobbledy-gook of the Bill pany. We know of these cases only too well, which, of course, is in the terminology of - and we have dealt with numerous cases in it can be understood by most members, of the Consumer Council, garages and people course—but what I am trying to imply is like this where because somebody signed a that it can become cumbersome listening little guarantee form and it went off, they to all of this stuff which is already in the had given up, or they were alleged to have 1895 Act. I want to show you, under clause given up, certain rights that they would 1, what our intention is by giving typical have obtained in the law as it now stands. examples of cases that we know about in This is why we say the implied terms of law. I would draw your attention to, and the law should be definite and should not these are factual cases, when a buyer be interfered with by some little piece of purchases a refrigerator and during the sale card that you send off to the manufacturers. nothing is said concerning the ownership When the Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) of it, the buyer has a right to assume that Bill is implemented, these special exemp- it has been implied that he will become the tions will no longer exist, and the buyer owner when the purchase price is trans- or the consumer cannot be required to ferred. It sounds fairly obvious. To quote give up his implied rights even if such a particular case; in the past a certain rights are not specifically claimed by the company went around from door-to-door buyer either orally or in writing whenever apparently selling refrigerators and a load goods are bought, nor can a manufacturer's of food with the refrigerator at very cheap rates. It transpired that after twelve months guarantee take them away from him. May I the company returned to the buyer's point out that the wording of this Bill may address demanding the refrigerator or a appear to be complicated and pedantic; it twelve month's rental thereon, stating that is to me, never mind to the people who it was only for hire and it was only the food have got to listen to me, but I must ask that has been bought. This is one of the hon. members to appreciate that we are typical cases of the sort of sharp practice amending an Act of 1895, and not at- that can go on under the present Bill, and tempting to replace it with a more modern to close this gap we are now saying that Bill. I think members will already have the implied term is that provided that thing appreciated, who have seen this Bill, that is passed to you, you must assume that it this in itself is a complicated thing, and has been sold outright to you. In later the first amendment that I will be moving clauses, of course, we deal with the question today on clause I goes to clause 14 of the of hire purchase. When this clause becomes 1895 Act. So you can imagine what legis- law this type of transaction will be can- lative business we would have in front of celled out because the buyer will have the us if we were completely replacing the 1895 right to assume that it is implied that the Act with a modern Bill. I beg to move the ownership will change hands; this is the second reading of this Bill. important point. I have copious notes on

Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Bill—Second Reading and Clauses Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K33

clause 1, but I would move clause I in the purchased that property, and that he just form that I have done in order that if there cannot come back 12 months later and say, is any question on this that members wish oh no, we only sold you the food, we want to ask, I think it is better, rather than me 12 months' rent for the refrigerator. I only read out two pages of information which give this as a typical case, and there are they may not be able to follow in the time many others that we could quote where this they have. I beg to move clause I. sort of thing has happened. Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second and reserve The Speaker: The resolution is that clause my remarks. 1 stands part of the Bill. Those in favour Sir Henry Sugden: Mr. Speaker, may I please say aye; against, no. The ayes have ask whether when a refrigerator was sold it. Clause 2. under the terms we have been given, whether the person bought it or not, or Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move clause 2 of the Bill. This clause adds a new whether it was just handed over to him. subsection to section 15. It is very difficult, against the assumption that he would in of course, and I appreciate this point the future be buying? because we have had so many Bills like Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Speaker, I am just this in front of us, you see, I am referring wondering whether this new amendment will now to the 1895 Act, and unless everybody interfere with stolen property or not — if has the 1895 Act I have got to go into quite the goods are passed over what will be the a lot of detail. We are now dealing with eventual outcome of it? section 15 of the Sale of Goods Act 1895 Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, a later clause which deals with contracts for the sale of deals with the question from the hon. goods by description. The clause also re- member for Michael. On the question of numbers the existing section 15 as sub- what the purchaser has implied by the section (1) and adds a new subsection, person coming to the door, the door-to-door subsection (2). Clause 15 remains but it is salesman type of thing, the person who now divided into subsections (1) and (2), bought assumed that he had bought the which provide that a sale of goods shall not refrigerator with a supply of food. This is be prevented from being a sale by descrip- the point about it, in the Sale of Goods tion by reason only that, being exposed for Act 1895, although they tried to cover these sale, the goods are selected by the buyer. particular points, I think in those days they Under this present section 15 where there did not have the sharp practice which is a contract for the sale of goods by exists in modern-day sales methods. We are description, there is an implied condition finding that there is a loophole here because that the goods shall correspond with that the salesman sort of presented the thing and description if the sale be by sample, as well said, this is what you are getting, you have as by description. It is not sufficient if the got a lovely fridge and you have got all the bulk of goods correspond with the sample, food, and it is going to cost you EX. The they must also correspond with the descrip- person assumed that they were making a tion. In this modern era when the growth purchase. The assumption that they are of the self-service stores is a trend, it is the making a purchase, under the new legisla- customer himself who selects the goods tion will be sufficient to say in law, the way from those displayed instead of asking the that this was presented to us it was implied assistant. It is now made clear that the sales that I was buying this article, and I am from such stores can be sales by descrip- now saying that I thought I was buying the tion. Again, I quote an example which may article at the time, and therefore under the appear to be a bit farcical, but it can happen. implied terms that you gave me I am You have a thing like a blanket, already covered by law, regardless of anything that pre-packed these days in a box market I signed I assumed that I was buying the "blue blanket", or something of this sort, article. This is the whole purpose of it, it it has got blue on it. It is sealed up and is spelt out in no uncertain terms that if marked as blue. When you get it home you you are presenting something which you find it is a pink blanket or something of are pretending to sell, then the customer that sort. There is a breach in the implied 4 has a right to accept in law that he has condition that the goods can be rejected.

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In most cases this will mean the buyer is you placed on this. I will read the Act as entitled to his money back, he may be it applied in 1895, and it is almost the same entitled to compensation as well for the as I have said. "Where there is a contract inconvenience of going back to the store. for the sale of goods by description, there Obviously, you may agree to accept a blue is an implied condition that the goods shall blanket in exchange, but you are not obliged correspond with the description". It was in to do so. Further, if you yourself select 1895 that our forebears agreed that there the goods, as may be the case in a self- should be some guarantee, that what we service store, if you rely on the description were getting was what we assumed, and such as a label on a tin, the goods must be what was written on the back of it. I think as described. So this is a simple case of just that it is fair and proper that we should saying that sale by description is clearly clear this point, and that we should protect marked, and if you have got these things the people. I mean, if someone sells an pre-packed there must be underneath in the article of the sort that l say, and the packet what it says on the label. It gives description is wrong, nobody else can be to you the opportunity also of saying that not blame, but the person who sold that article. only can you take it back to the shop and If somebody else sold it to him, well, he has say, look, I assumed that this was what it the recourse in another place. said on the label and it is not, you could be claiming compensation for coming from The Speaker: It is proposed and seconded Ramsey, or somewhere else, in order that that clause 2 stands part of the Bill. Those you can exchange the goods, that is the in favour please say aye; against, no. The purpose of this clause. I beg to move. ayes have it. Clause 3. Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second and reserve Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move my remarks. clause 3. This clause substitutes a new section for section 15 of the old Act for Mr. Devereau: It does not say, Mr. one at present in the Sale of Goods Act Speaker, whether we are talking about pre- 1895, and provides conditions as to quality wrapped goods or anything else. I am and fitness which are to be implied in looking at it from the other person's point contracts for the sale of goods. Here again of view, the sellers. It seems a bit rough we are dealing—the present section provides on the seller, if you can go into a store and two implied undertakings as to quality and select goods, take them home, and then fitness for the purpose of goods supplied, even wear them, and after that you take in those cases where parties have not them back and the seller is forced to either entered into express terms as to the quality change them or give you your money back of the goods. This clause re-formulates the because it is a sale by description. The undertakings as to quality and fitness which description may be at fault. I can see are to be implied. Section 16, subsection that there are a lot of difficulties here from (1), the opening words make clear that 1 he seller's point of view, be it the big store except as provided by the following sub- or whatever. sections of sections 16 and 17, and subject Mr. Moore: I say again, Mr. Speaker, to the provisions of any other relevant that I am only dealing with amendments statute, there are no implied undertakings to an Act which is an Act which is as far as to quality or fitness for the purposes of back as the 1895 Act. In that particular goods supplied under contract for sale. Act this part of it that the hon. member Subsection (2) re-formulates the implied for Douglas West has raised, was clearly conditions as to merchantable quality which spelt out in any case. We are only now is at present contained in section 16(2). It making provision that if it is a sale by provides that where the seller sells goods description you are entitled to say, this is in the course of business, a condition is to not as it was described, and therefore, be implied that the goods are of merchant- beside being allowed either to exchange it, able quality; no such conditions are to be I can have my money back or I can claim implied, however, with respect to defects compensation from you for causing me the specifically drawn to the buyer's attention trouble of having to come back, and you before the contract is made, or where the are not complying with the description that buyer examines the goods before entering

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into a contract, and as regards defects which in favour please say aye; against, no. The that examination ought to reveal. I take ayes have it. Clause 4. again with the indulgence of the House a Mr. Moore: I beg to move clause 4 of case in point. To be of merchantable quality the Bill, Mr. Speaker. In order that members goods must be as fit for the purpose for will not get too worried about the length which goods of that kind are commonly of this debate, I could find out even at this bought. For example, anyone buying a new early stage, that after we have dealt with pair of shoes would clearly not expect the clause 7, 1 will be putting a block of clauses soles to come away from the uppers soon together because it is exactly the same type after they started to wear them. This has of thing, but they will be referring to hire been the most common cause of complaint purchase agreements. So if you will indulge that the Isle of Man Consumer Council with me up to clause 7, I think that you have had to deal with. On the other hand, will find that you are on an easier passage if someone bought a ten-year-old car from from thence on. This clause contains a dealer he could not reasonably expect it provisions dealing with terms of a contract to perform like a new car, although they for the sale of goods which exclude or could expect it to give the kind of service restrict liability for breach of a condition which the average car of that mileage and or warranty implied by virtue of certain make would give. That is the only point of sections of the Sale of Goods Act. An the clause, to spell out in no uncertain exemption term on a contract of sale of terms that the goods must be of merchant- goods, which is a consumer sale, is also to able quality. I beg to move clause 3. be void. In the case of a contract which Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second and reserve is not a consumer sale an exemption is not my remarks. to be enforceable to the extent that it is shown. It would nut be fair or reasonable Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Speaker, there is to allow reliance on the term. This sort of one thing which I am concerned about, thing, of course, is produced by our legal and that is that several articles are betters, and to most members it is gobbledy- guaranteed for a varying length of time. gook, and this is why I go back to my The hon. member mentioned shoes, for previous stand and produce certain examples instance; another case could be a house of just to give you some reason as to why we any sort, a new house. I think really there have got the clause. Under clause 4 there will be a difference, I assume in the length are three limitations on the buyer's rights of time of which there is supposed to be when he buys from someone else, usually a guarantee under the Implied Terms Act. a retailer, who is selling in the course of It may be several years before you find a business. (1) As regards merchantable fault in a house which was probably there quality a buyer has no right to reject the at the time of sale. goods in respect of defects brought to his attention before the sale, but they must When we are talking in terms Mr. Moore: have been pointed out specifically to him. of the ordinary merchantable quality of This limitation is new and provides goods in this case, Mr. Speaker, we are additional protection for the retailer. 0 talking of the items, normal items of non- Provided that the retailer points out the consumable type of thing which you would specific deficiency to you, you have no right normally buy and for which you could then to come back and say you want to be assume that there was a lifetime. In the case protected under this legislation. (2) If a of a property I think it would be most buyer examines the goods before buyihg exceptional to say — this is covered in other them, this right does not apply to defects clauses, of course, and we in the Local which he ought to have seen during that Government Board are taking care for examination. So it is up to the buyer, if he instance, of new property that there should is taking something off the counter, a be some guarantee on the life of the pullover or something of this sort, if he house. But it is not covered in this is examining the goods he should not then particular clause. come back at a later stage and say there The Speaker: It is proposed and seconded is a fault in it. It is up to him as the buyer that clause 3 stands part of the Bill. Those — some of the onus must he on him in

Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Bill—Second Reading and Clauses Approved. K36 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 cases of this sort. As regards fitness for bought do not conform to the description purpose, a buyer cannot reject the goods is the auctioneer under any liability to if the circumstances of the sale show that have to return money or can the contract he did not rely on the seller's skill or judg- be broken in any way if the goods are ment, or that it was unreasonable for him not up to specification? Or, as 1 say, it to do so. This might be the case where a may be covered very well in another part retailer is asked for an elastic band suitable of this Bill. to use with his model aeroplane. The seller Mr. Ranson: Mr. Speaker, I do not think may make it clear that he has no idea it is in the Bill, but I presume that in the whether his elastic bands are suitable or condition for examining the article so not. If the seller says, well, I am sorry I bought by the buyer, that a certain amount cannot advise you on that, but if you want of facility will have to be provided by the to buy rubber bands I have them, well, seller. For instance, in a small way, if you of course, quite obviously then he cannot were buying a bulb for a flashlamp you come back and say, these broke as soon as would expect the assistant to have it I tried them out. So there is protection in properly tested, or if you were buying a this respect to the retailer on items of this battery that could be tested to let you know sort. I beg to move clause 4 stands part if it was quite all right. It does not say so, of the Bill. but I am assuming that for examining an Mrs. Quayle: 1 beg to second. I wanted article there will have to be provided a to say, Mr. Speaker, I think it is going to reasonable facility, whether it is a juniper be very difficult to prove, for instance, or whatever it is, I am assuming that, and either way, to prove that you were told I would like the hon. member in charge to about a defect or that it was pointed out let me know if he can. to you, or that you were not told about it. Mr. Moore: Well, Mr. Speaker, I said Unless you happen to have a witness there, this on a previous clause, but there are this is going to be a very difficult thing to certain items on which you do not have the prove. opportunity to inspect, if you buy in self- Mr. MacLeod: It seems to me, Mr. service stores and this sort of thing, and • Speaker, that it is a case of your eyes being then, of course, you are completely covered, your own judge, nothing more or less. You because it was implied on the packet that see an article, you either buy it or reject it. it contained something of a merchantable If somebody sells you a rubber band and quality of a specific colour and size. In he says, well, I do not know whether it is the case of goods where you can inspect, any good for this or not, I would think well, of course, this is where you can turn that the seller would have some idea, or at to the person who is serving and say, will least should have some idea, what his this particular thing-1 quoted a case. If rubber bands are for. They use them in the the hon. member for Glenfaba knows what sheep world. he wants his rubber bands for, and he goes Mr. MacDonald: What for? (Laughter.) to the right person he will get the right type of band for that purpose. What I am saying Mr. MacLeod: We know what they are is that if you went into a general store and for, we know exactly what they are going said, I have got one of these items, and I to do, but that is a different thing altogether. described one of these aeroplanes, model If somebody tells you in a shop that he does aeroplane things, and you said, are these not know what the article is for, 1 am sure all right for this purpose? He can say, there is something wrong. because he does not know what type of Mr. Devereau: Would the hon. mover, band you require, he can say, well I do Mr. Speaker, inform me whether or not not know, to be honest, but if you want sales by auction are covered in another rubber bands I have a selection there and part of the Bill or whether indeed auc- it is entirely up to you. Therefore he denies tioneers have to conform with the terms of responsibility for selecting a rubber band this Bill? Whereas an auctioneer can give for you. Then it is entirely up to you, it a very accurate description of goods, it must be left to your judgment. This could be misleading, and when the hammer question that was raised by the hon. mem- falls a contract is made — if the goods ber for West Douglas, and I have been

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kindly passed the appropriate clause; this, liability which would otherwise be em- of course, which I have in front of me ployed in the contract by virtue of sections now is the Sale of Goods Act, a different 14 to 17 of the amended Act. The addi- part of the Act which deals with sales by tional subsection enables the parties to auction, and it is not covered under the a contracted sale which is of an inter- section which I am dealing with at this national character to contract free from any stage. This is in section 58 of the present control which would have otherwise applied Act. I do not think there were any other by virtue of sections 55 and 55A. I beg to questions, were there? move clause 6. Members: No. Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. The Speaker: It is proposed and seconded The Speaker: It that clause 4 stands part of the Bill. Those is proposed and seconded in favour please say aye; against, no. The that clause 6 stands part of the Bill. Those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Clause 5. ayes have it. Clause 7. • Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move clause 5 of this Bill. This clause adds a clause 7 of the Act. This brings in certain new section numbered 55A to the principal definitions which were not in being in the Act; this is pushing in another section of 1895 Act. Definitions of "business", "con- the Act. This will mean that the provisions tract for the international sale of goods", of sections 14 to 17 and 55 of the amended and adds a new subsection (IA) in which Sale of Goods Act are to apply to a is set out the meaning of "merchantable contract notwithstanding that in other quality". The term "business" is used in respects the law chosen will be the law of connection with 16 of the amended Act the contract. This means that if another which deals with conditions as to quality system of law is chosen the provisions of or fitness to be implied where persons sell sections 14 to 17, 55 and 55A are to apply goods in the course of a business. The regardless of what other legislation states. definition of "contract for the international Again an example. The two parties to a sale of goods" is necessary to make it clear consumer sale may decide that the Hong that the United Kingdom and the Channel Kong Sale of Goods Law shall be the Isles are to be treated for the purposes of legislation under which this particular trans- this Act as separate countries from the action will be completed. However, here in Isle of Man. The new insert on which clause 5, which is an innovation, it states "merchantable quality"' is defined gives quite clearly, notwithstanding that that is added strength to fitness, free from any the law chosen, the provisions of our section defects, rendering them unmerchantable of the Bill will apply. In other words, our which would not be apparent on reasonable legislation will take precedence over any examination of the sample. I beg to move other thing that they have decided to make clause 7 stands part of the Bill. a sale under. I beg to move clause 5 of Mrs. Quayle: I the Bill. beg to second and reserve my remarks. • Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second and reserve The Speaker: It is proposed and seconded my remarks. that clause 7 stands part of the Bill. Those The Speaker: It is proposed and seconded in favour please say aye; against, no. The that clause 5 stands part of the Bill. Those ayes have it. Your block presentation now. in favour please say aye; against, no. The Mr. Moore: Yes. Could I take clauses 8 ayes have it. Clause 6. to 13, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move The Speaker: Yes. clause 6. This clause inserts a new sub- Mr. Moore: As 1 say, I would be going section (4) in section 59 of the principal through exactly the same procedure on Act, the Sale of Goods Act, in order to these except in dealing with sale of goods provide that nothing in sections 55 or 55A we are now dealing with goods on hire shall prevent the parties to the contract purchase agreement. I would beg to move for the international sale of goods from clauses 8 to 13, which, as I have already cancelling or varying any right, duty or explained, deal with precisely the same

Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Bill—Second Reading and Clauses Approved. K38 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 clauses which we have already taken with payable by instalments, and the property of the exception that they are dealing with the goods remains with the seller notwith- hire purchase agreements and not sale of standing that the buyer is to be in possession goods. I beg to move that clauses 8 to 13 of the goods, until such conditions as to the stand part of the Bill. payment of instalments are fulfilled. The Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second. Mr. definition of conditional sale agreements, Speaker, I missed my opportunity on sec- hirer, owner, are contained in the Hire tion 1, so I was going to say that some of Purchase Acts 1939 to 1973. This, of course, this wording is very old fashioned. It has is a completely separate Act and they are not been improved since the year 1895, or covered there. This clause makes special it has not been altered since the year 1895. provisions for those aspects of a con- "Disturbing the buyer's quiet possession" ditional sale agreement where it is still does not seem to me very suitable. Another desirable to separate those agreements from expression that rather surprised me was other contracts of sale. Generally when "undertakings as to quality and fitness". either party breaks a condition of the Fitness, to me, makes me feel I am a mem- contract with the other party then the con- ber of the "weight-watchers"! (Laughter.) tract can be treated as void, while the only remedy for breach of warranty, the sellers' Miss Cowin: Mr. Speaker, would it be expressed or implied undertakings that proper at this moment to ask how the things sold are his and are fit for use, etc., rental for hire purchase goods is arrived at, is to claim damages. Therefore, what the and is there a management charge included subsection is saying is that in section 13(3) in the percentage, or is that over and above of the Sale of Goods Act 1895 whereby in the charge upon the retailers? certain circumstances a breach of condition Mr. Devereau: Mr. Speaker, could I add in a contract of sale is treated only as a to that question and ask the mover whether breach of warranty, this shall not apply to or not the correct interest has to be given conditional sale agreements because such to the purchaser? The correct interest agreements have been, by necessity, detailed charged by the hire purchase company on and complicated. 1 beg to move clause 14 the exchange of goods. stands part of the Bill. The Speaker: Could the hon. member in Mr. Ranson: I beg to second, Mr. charge clear those two points? Speaker. Mr. Moore: 1 can only say, without going The Speaker: It is proposed and seconded into too much detail, that clause 15, which that clause 14 stands part of the Bill. Those conies slightly later, deals with conditional in favour please say aye: against, no. The sale agreement, which would produce the ayes have it. Clause 15. answer, I think, that the hon. member for Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move Douglas West talks about. With regard to clause 15. "Conditional sale agreement," the other point raised by the hon. member "hire purchase agreement," "hirer" and for Douglas East, I quite honestly am not "owner" have the same meanings respec- sufficiently aware of the conditions of hire tiiely as in the Hire Purchase Acts 1939 to purchase agreements to give the answer to 1973. Subsection (1) defines various terms that. I will certainly raise the point and used in sections 8 to 14. Subsection (2) produce the answer for the hon. member provides a definition of merchantable at the third reading stage. quality for the purposes of clause 10(2) of The Speaker: The resolution, then, hon. this Bill and unmerchantable quality where members, is that clauses 8 to 13, inclusive, it is used in clause II. Goods are of stand part of the Bill. Those in favour merchantable quality if they are as fit for please say aye: against, no. The ayes have the purpose or purposes for which the it. Clause 14. goods of their kind are commonly bought, Mr. Moore: Clause 14, Mr. Speaker, as it is reasonable to expect, having regard special provisions as to conditional sale to any description applied to them, the agreements. The conditional sale agreement price so far as is relevant and all other is an agreement for the sale of goods under circumstances. Subsection (3) defines cor- which the purchase price, or part of it, is responding hire purchase agreement where

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this term is used in clause 14(2) of this I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. mem- Bill. Subsection (4) makes it explicit that ber for Glenfaba that ... any condition of warranty, which would The Speaker: otherwise be implied by virtue of any en- Do not encourage him. (Laughter.) actment or rule of law other than one relating to quality of fitness is still to be Mr. Moore: . . . he could well speak implied. 1 beg to move clause 15 stands under interpretation on a Bill of this sort. part of the Bill. All I can suggest is that, and I repeat that Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second and reserve this is an 1895 Act which we are merely my remarks. amending. I would have much preferred to have seen a small Act dealing with modern- The Speaker: It is proposed and seconded day requirements and I would have been that clause 15 stands part of the Bill. Those much more delighted to present an Act of in favour please say aye; against, no. The that sort to this House. My duty is to ayes have it. Clauses 16 and 17, machinery. present this document as it came and this Mr. Moore: I beg to move clauses 16 and is the only thing that I can do. I beg 17, Mr. Speaker. Clause 16 refers to inter- to move. pretation, repeal and saving, and clause 17 is the short title and commencement of The Speaker: The resolution, hon. mem- the Bill. bers, is that clauses 16 and 17 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour please say aye; Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second, Mr. against, no. The ayes have it. Speaker. Mr. MacLeod: Mr. Speaker, I must honestly say that I have listened to a lot CUSTOMS AND EXCISE ACTS about this Bill this afternoon, but I know (APPLICATION) BILL—SECOND AND as much about it now as before I ever saw THIRD READINGS APPROVED. it. It is the greatest jumble—an advocate's paradise — that I have ever seen in all my The Speaker: Hon. members, if you life. Instead of bringing a simple Bill would look for a moment at item 9 on our forward saying that if you buy something Agenda, you will find there that this with some conditions, those are the con- morning we dealt with the first reading of ditions that apply, but here we have got all the Customs and Excise Acts (Application) sorts of things and they will have to go to Bill which was entrusted to the care of the a lawyer, there will be no question about hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Crellin. Mr. it, before they could get any satisfaction. Crellin has briefed himself on this measure If it was a sale where you go and buy - and has indicated his willingness to proceed an auctioneer — you go and buy a sheep with it if, in fact, the House would so that is knocked down . desire as he is fully informed on it and The Speaker: I am afraid the hon. mem- most helpfully indicated that he would take ber is out of order. We are dealing with it through its second and third readings if, the machinery of the Act, interpretation in fact, the House felt it was a desirable • and repeal of clauses, and short title an] thing to do. It is not a really contentious commencement. matter, but that is something the hon. member will explain himself if, in fact, the Mr. MacLeod: Well it is all the same House is prepared to suspend Standing thing, it is only interpretation. (Laughter.) It Orders to enable the second and third is a lot of mumbo-jumbo as far as I am readings to be taken or, at this stage, the concerned and I will defy anybody in the second reading. House to tell me exactly what it is about. Mr. Irving: I beg to move the suspension Mr. Moore: Mr. Speaker, I warned the of Standing Orders, sir. hon. member along with every other hon. member of this House that it was mumbo- Mr. Devereau: I beg to second, sir. jumbo, and I confess when I started off The Speaker: Is with this Bill that the only way that I that agreed, hon. members? • could in any way at all put a case to this hon. House was to quote certain examples. It was agreed.

Customs and Excise Acts (Application) Bill—Second and Third Readings Approved. K40 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975

The Speaker: Thank you very much. I Commission may authorise the United call upon the hon. member for Rushen Kingdom to retain customs duties of a fiscal to take the second reading. nature or the fiscal element of such duties on tobacco for two additional years if, by Mr. Crellin: Thank you, sir. I think you the 1st January 1976 it has not proved have put the situation in a nutshell, sir, possible to convert those duties into internal so far as my role in this Bill is concerned. taxes on manufactured tobacco on a This Bill was put into my hands by your- harmonised basis in accordance with Article self, sir, and I would like, in order to save 99 of the European Economic Community the time of this House, to explain just what Treaty, either because there are no Com- it is about to the best of my ability. This munity provisions in this field on 1st Bill is a Bill which arises out of Article 38 January 1975 or because the time limit set and Article 95 of the Treaty of Rome. out for the introduction of such community This is not a Finance Board measure in any provisions is later than the 1st January way; this is a Bill which has come before 1976. I was extremely surprised to find this House as a result of our membership, out from the lawyer from the Customs in this particular confined respect, of the and Excise Department of the United European Economic Community. I think Kingdom, to discover that the Customs and you are aware that we have certain Excise law in the United Kingdom and in obligations under that Treaty, in our special the Isle of Man is in a pretty sorry mess relationship with the United Kingdom, and from the point of view of the convertibility I think also that there is no need for me, under our arrangements with the European at this particular stage, to describe the Economic Community, but also that in such difference between a customs duty and an countries as France and Italy the fiscal excise duty, but may I say broadly that a element in a customs duty is identifiable, customs duty is imposed upon goods from completely separately, from the protective without whereas an excise duty, in general duty. In other words, if I may give an terms, is imposed upon goods from within. example, Mr. Speaker, you could have a In general terms, the customs duties, so duty imposed say upon cigarette lighters, far as this country is concerned, have been and on cigarette lighters an element of that an overall sum of money which is charged duty could be to protect the locally pro- upon goods coming in to this country. In duced cigarette lighters and it could also be this way, as you will appreciate, you have, to raise revenue because it is a suitable for instance, a customs duty on tobacco form for raising revenue, thus the one is coming into the country and you have an a fiscal duty, in other words to produce excise duty on the goods having been revenue for the realm and the other is a produced into the form of cigarettes, cigars protective duty to protect the industry of and all the rest of it in this country. I was the country concerned. In such countries rather surprised when Her Majesty's as France and Italy, I say such countries Customs and Excise saw it fit and advisable as France and Italy, these two things are to bring a lawyer here to the Isle of Man not only identifiable, but are accounted for to explain two things to the Governor in differently, whereas in the United Kingdom Executive Council and to the Finance Board and in the Isle of Man it has just been on this matter and I only wish really that concerned as a fiscal duty. When the we had had, at that particular time, the common external tariff was introduced it benefit of his explanations here in this hon. was laid down that this common external House. He made two points which are very tariff would apply to all countries outside important, the first one is that owing to the the Common Market and the protective circumstances of English and Manx law with regard to customs and excise duties duty would, in fact, be replaced by the common external tariff. Therefore there there has never been a proper orientation of the legislation to cater for any future was no need any longer to have these developments. When we agreed, under elements accounted for separately in their Article 38, to go into the Common Market, countries apart from the fact that the I think the important thing to remember is Market itself is protected from without by that in subsection (4) of Article 38 the the common external tariff, whereas

Customs and Excise Acts (Application) Bill—Second and Third Readings Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K41 countries still retain the right to raise their has to be done and it has to be through own revenue by their own fiscal duties in the legislation to fulfil our obligations, by the form of internal taxes. Really what this 1st January 1976, which means that it has amounts to is that if you look at the to have the Royal Assent. It has already explanatory memorandum connected with gone through the Council. I am prepared this Bill, and look at the last paragraph to read to you, if you require, what was thereof, it says, "Clause 1 and the Schedule said at that stage, but I think that this is give the Finance Board the necessary an automatic process, it is a piece of powers to achieve the object mentioned in enabling legislation which we should not paragraph 1"—that is to say to bring about hesitate to pass and get out of the way the separation, where it is applicable, of quickly and wait for the orders to come the protective element of a customs duty before Tynwald because they will come and and the fiscal element of a customs duty they will be the things that will set the seal and to replace that fiscal element by an upon the situation. I therefore beg to move internal tax. That is the power which is the second reading of this Bill. As I say given to Tynwald and will be brought there is nothing in it which, to my mind, before Tynwald in due course by the is in any degree contentious and I have only Finance Board. They also empower the offered to do this with your permission in Finance Board to modify, repeal or revoke view of the fact that time is running out Manx legislation relating to customs and a little for me, too, in this hon. House. I excise and any United Kingdom legislation therefore beg to move the second reading relating to customs which has affected the of this Bill. I will endeavour to answer any Isle of Man by virtue of section 3 of the questions that there are upon it, if it is Customs (Isle of Man) Act 1958, in any within my capacity. manner which may appear to be necessary Mr. Devereau: I beg to second, Mr. or desirable. When I said about the customs Speaker. law in the United Kingdom being in a mess, the reason is that they too have not The Speaker: The resolution then, hon. got, at this particular stage, the powers to members, is that the Customs and Excise bring about this particular process to which Acts (Application) Bill 1975 be now read they have agreed in their membership of a second time. Those in favour please say the Common Market. The powers will aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Clause 1, and Schedule enable the existing law to be tidied up and I. supplemented as is considered necessary and Mr. Crellin: Clause 1 says briefly that expedient. This is what this Bill will, in "the Finance Board may by order apply fact, do. This Bill, in fact, itself does to the Island as part of the law of the nothing at all, all it does is it means that Island, subject to such exceptions, modifica- we will be able to bring before Tynwald, tions and adaptations as may be specified in when we know the true extent of the the order such of the provisions of the legislation which is brought forward by the Customs Acts or of the Excise Acts or both, United Kingdom, we will be able to bring or of any instrument of a legislative forward to Tynwald the amending legisla- character made (or having effect as if made) tion in order to put our Customs and under any of these Acts, as may be so Excise legislation into its proper form to specified". It goes on to say, of course, enable us to separate these two duties where that no order under this section shall have it is necessary so to do, and to replace any effect until it has been approved by fiscal element in those ditties by an internal Tynwald. It is merely a question of supply- tax. It will make no difference whatsoever ing the machinery in order that the really to our position in the Common resolutions may be brought forward by Market; it has no effect whatsoever upon Tynwald consequent upon the passing of the Common Purse arrangements and it is the English legislation and our agreement only so that we will be able to fulfil our to go with them upon it. I beg to move obligations to our relationship with the that clause 1 stands part of the Bill. United Kingdom in her membership of the Mr. Devereau: I beg to second, Mr. Common Market. It is something which Speaker.

Customs and Excise Acts (Application) Bill—Second and Third Readings Approved. K42 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975

Mr. Irving: Mr. Speaker, I am wholly in Mr. Crellin: Clause 2 is merely the inter- support of this Bill, I can see the necessity pretation and clause 3 is the short title and for it, one can certainly understand that if commencement. I beg to move. the British Customs are going to change Mr. Devereau: I beg to second. their means of book-keeping and distinguish clearly between the protective element and Mr. MacLeod: Mr. Speaker, I was always the excise, the fiscal element in any import of the opinion that we people here in the duty on goods — this is straightforward, as Isle of Man kept our laws of customs and the hon. member has said, there is not very excise in line with the United Kingdom much in that we should worry about, but because of the reason of the Common I think if we look at the second part of the Purse. If we are going to give power to explanation to this Bill it says "empower people to alter this, will it be that in future the Finance Board to modify, repeal or we will be able to sell cheap wine or cheap revoke Manx legislation relating to customs tobacco in this Island, or will we have to and excise, and any United Kingdom legis- stick to the letter of the law and say we lation relating to customs and excise which will do exactly the same now as we have has effect in the Isle of Man by virtue of being doing hitherto before? I cannot see section 3 of the Customs (Isle of Man) Act any reason why we should bring this in here 1958, in any manner which may appear to because we are doing that now. You talk be necessary or desirable. These powers will about articles like cigarette lighters being enable the existing law to be tidied up and manufactured here and we do not manu- supplemented as is considered necessary or facture, so we do not have any licence to expedient.- I agree and it is obvious, sir, do that or any excise for either making that any orders made by the Finance Board them or exporting them because we do not will have to be approved by Tynwald, but export them. I do not see any reason at I think we should recognise the fact that all, to tell you the honest truth, Mr. this is not just a simple little Bill splitting Speaker, why this Bill should ever come the protective element from the fiscal before the House because we are doing this element, it does indeed give the Finance exactly the same now as it is going to ask Board a great deal of power to alter the us to do in the future, keep in line with the law and to promote orders. Those orders, I laws of England. agree, have to be approved by Tynwald, Miss Cowin: Mr. Speaker, could this Bill but nevertheless I think we must appreciate in any way be regarded as a trimming of this is an important step in dealing with the sails? customs and excise matters in the Isle of Mr. Crellin: No, madam, in no circum- Man. However, I do support the Bill. stances, in no circumstances. I would like to The Speaker: Do you wish to reply, sir? make a point on what was brought tip by the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. Mac- Mr. Crellin: Yes, sir. I thank the hon. Leod, the position is, at the moment, that member for East Douglas, but the big point we have a Common Purse arrangement is, of course, and this is true, that this gives arising out of the agreement made with the us the machinery today, it does not give us United Kingdom with regard to our align- any power, Tynwald gives us the power and ment on this. Unfortunately what has we, so far as Finance Board is concerned, happened and the hon. member I think will this is not a thing which has come our recall, if he thinks back to Budget time, way as yet, this is a thing which is still that there are various times when we have with the Department of Customs and to make amendments to the existing legis- Excise and it will come our way in due lation which we can make over a period course. We shall not bring before Tynwald but we are empowered to make orders of anything which we do not think would be a temporary nature to tide us over that satisfactory to Tynwald. period until such time as the amendments The Speaker: The resolution is that clause to the legislation can be brought about, but 1 along with the Schedule stand part of the we are, under our agreement, not forced, Bill. Those in favour please say aye; against, but we has e agreed to keep in line with no. The ayes have it. Clauses 2 and 3, the United Kingdom until such other interpretation and short title. arrangements are made, that is to say until

Customs and Excise Acts (Application) Bill—Second and Third Readings Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 28, 1975 K43 some re-negotiations take place. This does it will be ready in time for 1st January not affect that in any way whatsoever, all 1976. As I say, this is not a Bill which is it means is this, and with regard to the hon. sponsored in any way by ourselves, it is member's remark with regard to cigarette purely and simply a thing which is part lighters, this is true that in his constituency and parcel of our obligations to the Euro- or close hard by his constituency sup- pean Economic Community. I beg to move, pressors for television sets are made which first of all, the suspension of Standing could, in fact, carry a duty of a protective Orders in order that I may take the third or of a fiscal nature exactly the same as a reading of the Bill. cigarette lighter could carry. It is only a The Speaker: Is that agreed, hon. question of what the Chancellor decides at members? a particular time and our reaction thereto as to whether or not the same things could It was agreed. apply to the goods which are produced in The Speaker: Thank you. Proceed, sir. the Isle of Man, but this does not affect Mr. Crellin: I therefore formally move that in any way. The only thing is this, the third reading of this Bill, sir, that is to that without this legislation as it stands, say the Customs and Excise Acts (Applica- what would happen would be that by 1st tion) Bill 1975. I beg to move. January 1976 when we are bound by our agreement to come into line with our ob- Mr. Dm ereau: I beg to second, sir. ligations under Article 38 that we would Mr. MacLeod: We have to say yes, find that we would not be able to do it. because we have no alternative. All this is designed to do is to make sure The Speaker: The resolution then, hon. that we are able to when that times conies members, is that the Customs and Excise by, so it really does not affect the situation Acts (Application) Bill 1975 be now read a that we are ... third time. Those in favour please say aye; Mr. MacDonald: Book-keeping. against, no. The ayes have it. The Bill is read a third time. I would thank you, hon. Yes, it is a matter of book- Mr. Crellin: member, for your final contribution at the keeping only, it is nothing to do with the public proceedings of this Chamber which, principle of the Common Market or the as always, has been presented in a most Common Purse. helpful manner to both members and the The Speaker: The resolution, hon. mem- Chair. bers, is that clauses 2 and 3 stand part of Members: Hear, hear. the Bill. Those in favour please say aye; Mr. Crellin: I thank you, sir, for your against, no. The ayes have it. Do you wish kind remarks and your guidance over the to take the third reading, sir? past nine years. Mr. Crellin: Yes, sir, I would ask the The Speaker: The House will now, hon. indulgence of hon. members in that we can members, sit in private. take the third reading of this Bill to enable it to go and get the Royal Assent so that The House sat in private.

Customs and Excise Acts (Application) Bill—Second and Third Readings Approved.