Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Edgar Mann
MANX HERITAGE FOUNDATION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT ORAL HISTORY TRANSCRIPT
‘TIME TO REMEMBER’
Interviewee: Dr Edgar Mann
Date of birth:
Place of birth:
Interviewer: Roger Rawcliffe and Charles Guard
Recorded by: Charles Guard
Date recorded: No recording date
Topic(s): Isle of Man Government Reserves The Savings & Investment Bank [SIB] The Manx Shipping Register Companies Exempt Insurance Act Negative publicity from collapse of SIB Financial Supervision Commission [FSC] Stress and illness Anglo Manx Bank Gwendolyn Lamb Bernie Moffett and tanker drivers strike Gun incident involving Mr Oatway Declining Tourism Setting up a Ministerial Government in the Isle of Man Standing down from Legislative Council Promoting Isle of Man as an offshore business centre
Edgar Mann - Dr M Roger Rawcliffe - RR Charles Guard - CG
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Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Edgar Mann
RR … was in the Finance Board?
Dr M Well, not immediately, no, err …
RR No.
Dr M ... I was five years on various Boards, and then I became Chairman of the Board of Agriculture. And it was after the election of 1981 that I became Chairman of the Finance Board.
RR And you hadn’t experienced – that was your first – being a Member of the Finance Board, was it?
Dr M Yes.
RR So a lot of the … a lot of the problems which turned into the SIB [Savings & Investment Bank] where already in the system?
Dr M Oh yes, yea.
RR That’s interesting. Now when you – what was your impression when you became Chairman of the Finance Board as to the status of the financial services industry?
Dr M Well, the state of the finances of the Isle of Man Government were frightening.
RR Were they?
Dr M Ummm, because err ... the umm … taxation revenue had fallen quite significantly over the latter part of the seventies, and after the election we were faced with a fairly tight budgetary situation with a – if I recall – a reserve just about approaching one million.
RR (laughter) At least you weren’t borrowing ...
Dr M And the reserves are now in the hundreds of millions, yea.
RR I know. 2
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Dr M So it was quite obvious that things had to change, and somehow we’d got to stimulate the finance sector still further. So the impression I got, and this is only an impression ‘cos I wasn’t involved, was that, you know, in the earlier stages, nobody really was talking about a financial centre as such, they were talking about just giving the economy a bit of a boost by in-coming wealthy people and the setting up of these private banks. But I mean that was the impression I got. Certainly from 1981 onwards, we were quite deliberately going out and trying to raise the – raise the profile.
RR Well, I remember – I remember that, but the new – and I do remember that when I – I came to live here – I came to Pannells in 1979 – end of ’79 – and it was all a bit – you couldn’t sell houses and things ...
Dr M Hmmm.
RR … clients of ours died and you found you got some awful house that was on your hands. So I do remember it being quite flat at that time.
Dr M Yes, it certainly err … it certainly was. And of course, as far as the banks were concerned, they were just domestic ...
RR Hmmm – well, we audited quite a few.
Dr M ... domestic retail bankers, and that was that. There wasn’t any major ummm ... but of course, we were still in a situation where, of course, there was no capital movement in and out of the UK without – well, there was capital movement, but it was all monitored.
RR Well, the, the, the exchange control went before just before 19 ... just before Mrs Thatcher got in in 1979.
Dr M Errr ...
RR So that had just happened.
Dr M No it didn’t, no it didn’t, actually.
RR Didn’t it? 3
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Dr M Err … because when we were still in the early stages, and this was quite lucky really, we had people from the Bank of England coming over every quarter … errr … and they saw Bill Dawson and err … they were checking on the capital flows in and out … errr … on this quarterly basis so of course there was a personal relationship between the Bank of England and us at that time, which was very helpful indeed, when it came to the SIB problem.
RR Now ... tell us the sort of background ... you mentioned banks – were there other financial things you were trying to get moving? I mean, insurance – you, you had ...
Dr M Well, I don’t ...
RR Coming in. Lloyds Life came in, didn’t it?
Dr M Ummm – yes, I’m just trying to remember when we actually altered the err ... law, so that ummm, errr … you know, the insurance companies could benefit from ...
RR I think it was 1981 ...
Dr M ... low taxation ...
RR ... I think you did it in 1981 from what I remember ... I have it in here somewhere, but it doesn’t matter for this purpose.
Dr M I know in developing the economy there were two key issues, one was not directly financial but err … was the setting up of the Shipping Register ...
RR Hmmm.
Dr M ... and certainly I err … put through a lot of the … a lot of the Bills that set up the err … the Manx Shipping Register, but that was before ’81, but … yea.
RR Well, I was the auditor of the Harbour Board, and all this legislation I had to look at.
Dr M Yes, that’s right, yes. 4
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RR And that was to get it prepared for ...
Dr M That’s right, yea … err … but I believe, by ’81, they were already beginning to start ummm … signs of shipping companies coming over here. But ummm … I can’t recall an awful lot about the insurance, I ummm … I have a vague recollection of it going through the Keys but, I couldn’t relate it in terms of err … of time, you know, in what, what year.
RR I, I think it was 1981 …
Dr M Was it?
RR ... errr …’cos it was the, was the Companies Exempt Insurance Act, or something of that kind.
Dr M Well that ... that certainly took off very quickly, yes.
RR Well they had had some before, but there was … they taxed the investment income, I think …
Dr M Hmmm.
RR ... but not the trading income by accession and this sort of put the whole thing – ‘cos Guernsey had stolen the march on us I think.
Dr M Oh yes.
RR But the captives started to come in after, after you became Chairman.
Dr M Yea – which, which was, ummm … you know … a specific item when it came to financial … err … you know, setting up the … ummm … you know, the regulations. Because then we started getting arguments between the insurance industry and the banking industry as to how (laughter) ...
RR Come back to that in a moment …
Dr M Yea.
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RR Ummm … before the SIB happened, did you have any warnings of, of, of …
Dr M Well, there were ...
RR ... impending disaster?
Dr M ... there were a lot of mutterings, a lot of mutterings that ummm … err … we should be doing a lot more in terms of err … of regulations, or certainly knowing what was going on, because at that time, really we, we had no great knowledge of actually what was going on in the individual banks. We – they were supposed to be submitting their balances every so often, and there was a Commercial Relations Officer, I think he was called …
RR He was – that’s what he was called …
Dr M ... err … who was supposed to be err … keeping an eye on these things.
RR Well, that’s all, that’s all … I mean there was quite a lot of interesting stuff when they had those inquiries …
Dr M Yea.
RR ... and that’s precisely what he undertook to do, to keep an eye on it, which was … (laughter) sounded a bit casual in the way it was … it was a sort of Minute of a meeting.
Dr M And I can remember ...
RR Before your time, I think?
Dr M ... yea … err … I can remember, early on, err, when I was Chairman of the Finance Board, err … of course I was Member of the Executive Council, as well, of trying to persuade Executive Council that we needed a Banking Supervisor … ummm … and of course ... ummm … all the government departments were err … you know – on a very tight budget …
RR Hmmm.
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Dr M ... and personnel wise as well as err … as financial. And there was quite a lot of objection to this, and I quite well remember … err … when Executive Council refused to authorise an additional person in Treasury to do banking supervision ... err … saying to them, ‘You may well rue this day.’ (laughter) But ... err … I don’t want – I don’t know how, personal your … err … your comments have got to be or not to be.
CG As personal as possible, really.
RR Well I have to also to then to then to pull the punches a bit because I don’t want to – I mean I want to give a flavour without necessarily ...
Dr M Yea, well I ...
RR ... be heavy on anybody.
Dr M Well, if I could err … ummm … I mean, in Executive Council at that time, we had a Member who was also a member of the Board of the Isle of Man Bank. And he, in particular, was vociferous against – because the established domestic banks were just not wanting to have to pay to err … keep the others in order. You know, they – we do our job properly and we don’t see why we should pay money to employ somebody to make sure the others are doing it. So err … so in the beginning of my sort of session ummm … we were aware that things weren’t right, we were trying to do something about it, but there were also strong ... err … forces in the finance sector who didn’t want to know …
RR Yea.
CG Was he ...?
Dr M ... for their … for their own personal reasons – well, their own commercial reasons.
CG ... did … did his voice have an effect on Legislative Council do you think – err … Executive Council was this, yes?
RR Yes.
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Dr M Hmmm.
CG Yea … do you think he persuaded them with [unclear].
Dr M I mean … err … I can certainly say that Executive Council did not agree at that stage to a Banking Supervisor, but as an aside, there was one Member (laughter) who spoke very strongly …
CG Right … hmmm ...
Dr M ... against. Mainly because the cost would fall on the … on the established banks ...
RR I mean, that sort of … that sort of name is a name that, that I regard as perfectly reasonable to find – I think I’ve got it somewhere else to put in, because it is an important factor. Err…and he had a conflict of interest anyway, which he should have put on one side …
Dr M Hmmm.
RR ... ‘cos it was clear to you and it was clear – even to Bill Dawson I think it was clear to – ‘cos he asked for it.
Dr M Hmmm. Well, he would, he would have been there when I, when I proposed it.
RR Well, I’ve got a … I’ve got a Minute (laughter) of the, of the …
CG Not of the Executive Council?
RR One of them!
CG Really?!
RR Yes, ‘cos do you know …
Dr M You’re not supposed to have that! (laughter)
CG ‘Cos that’s still ... 8
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RR Well I’ve got it!
CG Secret, isn’t it?
RR It was – well it, it maybe, but it’s … it’s on public record, because it’s in James Penn’s paper.
CG Oh, because of the inquiry.
RR It came out of the inquiry – it’s in the inquiry ...
CG Hmmm.
RR ... so the inquiry have actually published things that you wouldn’t otherwise have got at.
CG Oh I see, yes.
RR And if the inquiry have published it, it’s … it’s open season on ...
CG It’s very ironic, though, I gather, that you … you had made that suggestion and then said, ‘You may rue this day.’ And unfortunately it was you who had to deal with it.
Dr M (laughter) Had to deal with it, yes!
CG Had to do the rueing, yes. (laughter)
Dr M Yes! (laughter)
RR I’ve got it all in … Percy Radcliffe … that’s right ... Memorandum of a Meeting on the 8th August 1979 … and this all comes out of a … one of the … Chadwick Report ...
Dr M Hmmm.
RR ... which was the Inspector’s Report, wasn’t it? Percy Radcliffe, Geoffrey Crellin and T E Kermeen, Treasurer, and … this is where they wouldn’t – they 9
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weren’t against it, the big banks didn’t want it … err … and they invited the Commercial Relations Officer to keep an eye on things (laughter) I mean … which, obviously, he wasn’t capable of doing ...
Dr M Oh no.
RR ... nor was he inclined to do. And furthermore he didn’t do.
Dr M No, he didn’t want to. Oh well, err … yes, I wouldn’t like to express an opinion on that but he certainly didn’t appear to get himself involved and certainly, his err … I don’t think he attended very … ummm … closely.
RR Which may or may not have been reasonable for his … he didn’t.
CG Did he have a legal – a legal authority, though, to ...
Dr M No, he didn’t – as far as I know.
CG No ... [unclear] ... no.
RR There was one ...
Dr M And yet there must have been, somewhere, an authority that the banks had to submit their accounts.
RR Yes, there was, in the Banking Act 1975, there was – the powers were there ...
Dr M Oh!
RR ... in the post of the Treasurer. So Bill had the wit he could obviously delegate. But Bill didn’t – Bill was obviously doing other things like running the financial – the Isle of Man ...
Dr M Yes.
RR ... and he also wasn’t inclined.
Dr M No. 10
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RR Nobody wanted to do it, in effect ...
Dr M Hmmm.
RR ... and it’s a specialised job. Anyway, so then it all happens. (laughter) Really the next thing that happens – there were one or two sort of foretastes, weren’t there? There was another bank – what was it – the International … something or other … that sort of …
Dr M There were all kinds of small ones dotted around at the time.
RR But, just before SIB went, there was the one that Snelling was in ...
Dr M No I can’t remember that.
RR ICFC or something, something like that ...
Dr M Hmmm.
RR ... but that was … not a so sort of major thing. And then the SIB …
[Dr Mann’s mobile phone rings]
Dr M Oh, sorry.
RR Now we’re coming onto the SIB which is, is in a way the fascinating centre piece of the – all this history. When did the … when did you – you obviously had some foreknowledge, but when did you – when did the crisis start for you?
Dr M (laughter) You know I can’t quite remember how it started. Ummm … I quite – whether it was Bill Dawson who got onto me and told I … I suspect it was, but ummm … I can’t remember the actual …
CG You can’t remember when you ...
Dr M ... first way in which it happened … err … I know that err … we had meeting after meeting to decide what was happening.
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RR Before … before you took the licence?
Dr M No, I think when it … when it actually … when it had actually taken place.
RR Well, we’ll come onto that in a moment, but … err … I mean, before it happened … ummm … that fellow Jim Rapper was jumping up and down and saying, ‘This bank is bust!’ Do you remember? Ummm … and Barclays refused to clear their cheques any more … sort of in the week before …
Dr M Hmmm.
RR ... and then the licence was withdrawn on a Friday – 21st June, or whatever day it was … in 1982. And we were called in to … by you …
Dr M Yes, I remember that.
RR ... to (laughter) go and see what was really happening ...
Dr M Yea.
RR ... which we did, for about two weeks. So they … and we duly reported – we all went to the Millennium Room where you sat ...
Dr M That’s it.
RR ... with the Finance Board.
Dr M I mean … it must have been Bill Dawson who drew my attention to it. Of course, I was very heavily involved elsewhere as well. (laughter)
RR Well, absolutely … there’s more things than the bank. So … so now you have the crisis …
Dr M Yes … and ummm ...
RR ... and it was bust.
Dr M ... yes. But immediately … err … nobody could immediately see how it 12
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happened. That was impression I got, but err … and when we called yourselves in, ummm … I think, for a while, it took a while before people did realise exactly how it had happened.
RR Hmmm.
Dr M Err … and ummm … I mean the fact is they were depositing money and then lending it out to themselves, weren’t they?
RR Well, lending it out to people with whom they might well have been associated. (laughter)
Dr M Yes. So in fact the bank never had a capital base.
RR No, and that … well, when … I mean, it goes back to the Whipps.
Dr M Yea.
RR One of the interesting things about the trial was that the Whipps were not – or that Tom Whipp was not named, because Tom Whipp lent the money from the bank ...
Dr M Hmmm.
RR ... in order the buy the bank. And in 19 … or before the collapse he withdrew – he left the money in the bank – the debt – but withdrew it early that year, so then, as you rightly say, the capital had gone ...
Dr M Hmmm.
RR ... because the capital was never there.
Dr M So … it, it was finished. (laughter)
RR Which nobody knew … ummm ... and then you had political pressure, didn’t you? You had people – Miss Lamb and …
Dr M Oh, we had enormous pressure. And ummm … I mean, I was absolutely … err 13
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… not because you were sitting here this afternoon, but we were enormously grateful for the … for the sheer hours that you put in!
RR Well we certainly did that. (laughter)
Dr M I mean, this practice was working almost through the night …
RR We worked two weeks solidly with all our qualified staff ...
Dr M Yea. Umm …
RR ... including the weekends.
Dr M I just couldn’t believe that a ... a practice would set aside everything else and just get on with this. And ... ummm … I don’t know how many hours were put in and how many meetings we had on the way. (laughter) Ummm … until we finally … until we finally were faced with the horrible facts. Ummm … but as you say, then the publicity broke and of course, we had all the journalists from Financial Times, and … err … back and forth. But, here, we did have this great advantage that we had this – had had in the past – this quarterly contact with the Bank of England ...
RR Hmmm.
Dr M ... and … err … directly … errr … you know, that it was realised that … err … we couldn’t go on like this, we had to substitute, and quickly, err … a true supervisory authority ...
RR Hmmm.
Dr M ... that we went off to the, to the Bank of England, ummm … who were extremely helpful. I mean, we spent a whole day there looking at the way in which they … err … they did their banking supervision in the UK. And, you know, how many people were involved, what sort of calibre of people we needed and so on. Ummm … and in fact they sent somebody over, didn’t they?
RR Farrant, they sent.
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Dr M Sorry?
RR They sent Farrant and a … and a woman, didn’t they?
Dr M That’s right, yea.
RR Who did a report.
Dr M Yea. And they did a … a preliminary report. And ummm … it was based on that that we then set up the Financial Supervision Commission.
RR Hmmm.
Dr M Ummm … and of course ...
RR And they suggested Jim Noakes to you … to the role, didn’t they?
Dr M Well, they … Jim Noakes put forward his … his name, but he, of course, was working for the Bank of England …
RR Hmmm.
Dr M Ummm … but there were several other names put forward.
RR Hmmm.
Dr M But err … I mean, obviously, having had this err … enormous amount of help and communication … ummm … yes, we decided on Jim Noakes, and ummm … err … he was very keen on coming. Err … he was very interested in coming to the Isle of Man.
RR Yes, we saw him.
Dr M Which was a …
RR He explained how it suited his sort of stage of life …
Dr M Yes, yes … 15
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RR ... and he thought the job would be interesting too.
Dr M Yes, well it was incredibly lucky, really, that we found somebody who was right up to date with err … with the Bank of England … err … way of working. Err … and then we took on the Street’s Financial – his promotional people of Fleet Street, who did an incredibly good job as well. I know we had to pay for it, but err … it’s one of the few consultancies that government had that actually produced a result (laughter) and we … we were back and forth down there … ummm … they used to set up press conferences with all the … all the financial journalists, and ummm ….
RR Did they set up the road shows that we ...?
Dr M Ummm … they, they, set, set it up, but we only did it in London, actually.
RR Well, we did it – I did it – I was one of the speakers.
Dr M Oh yes.
RR It was London, Bristol, and Edinburgh was the first one.
Dr M Yes.
RR Then … I think they went to Holland, or somewhere, wasn’t it?
Dr M That’s right. Well, that followed on, yes. Once we got the supervision in place, then we went out to most of the European countries – really just to say, ‘Look, we’ve got, we’ve got the, the, the proper … ummm … supervision now – come and get us.’
RR Your Miss Lamb leaping up and down when we did the one in London.
Dr M (laughter) Oh she ...
RR Outside the door ...
Dr M (laughter) ... she was, she was … my letterbox was as full of her ...
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CG Those few days after the crash, though, did you wake up every morning feeling – you know – you suddenly wake up and think … Oh my God, yes, of course … A huge depression must have come over you.
Dr M Well, it wasn’t … yes, it was a very busy … err … time. And err … I’ve always thought that … err … that probably had a contributive affect for my stroke which followed.
CG Yes, yes … hmmm.
RR But the stroke was some time … years later, wasn’t it?
Dr M No it wasn’t, no.
RR Wasn’t? Oh, you had one then, did you?
Dr M In ’83.
RR Oh, I’d forgotten that it was earlier.
Dr M On the day that Margaret Thatcher was re-elected. (laughter)
CG That’s more likely to have affected you! (laughter)
RR Now the, the, the supervision, you were mentioning the supervision and the banking and the insurance. Now you move from Chairman of the Finance Board to being Chairman of Ex Co [Executive Council], didn’t you?
Dr M Ummm … well, not immediately.
RR No, no – at some stage.
Dr M Hmmm. Yea. So ummm … we set up the Financial Supervision Commission first. I, I chaired that, and then the insurance industry err … were of the opinion that the amount of regulation of the banks was not the same as the way in which insurance should be regulated, and so, some time after I … it may have been six months or a year afterwards.
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RR It was something like that … yea.
Dr M We decided to break it up. Err … once again, the insurance industry were very well organised, and err … had some err … very forward looking people in it. And, as it turned out, it was probably the sensible thing to do – to separate it anyway.
RR Wasn’t just a personality clash?
Dr M No, no … no. There was one interesting aside, but I don’t know, once again, whether it’s the kind of thing we should refer to. But faced with the uproar … both here and in the UK as to what happened with the SIB, and I had plenty sitting on my own doorstep, because the manager of the SIB actually lived in Laxey.
RR [unclear]
Dr M He was one of my (laughter) … one of my patients at the time, and quite a few of my own patients had thousands of pounds lost, as so every time I happened to see them, you know, ‘What are you doing about it?’
RR Yea.
Dr M But that was nothing, of course, to the err … to the uproar in the UK and the articles in The Financial Times and The Times and things like this which were … ummm … although they did swing round, after we did those press conferences and once they knew, once they knew that the Bank of England was associated with the err … financial supervision, they certainly err … came, came round, then. But in a personal bid, at that point, I went and called on the Chairman of the Isle of Man Bank, who were, after all, the bankers of the Isle of Man Government, to ask them if they would err … give us a preferential loan, I think of four million pounds, to … err … to allow us to compensate for the loss. Err … I never actually met the board, I was seated out in the corridor outside (laughter) err … but the Chairman eventually came out and said they were not err … prepared to … err … give us a loan, and certainly they weren’t prepared to give it at any (laughter) err … premium rate.
RR Odd ... an odd thing. I can’t see why they couldn’t – I mean, the second part – 18
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the preferential rate could be talked about, but, but I’m amazed they wouldn’t …
CG Did they give their reasons?
Dr M No, no.
CG So that was you [unclear].
Dr M Well they still … I, I, I think the err … the overall thing, was once again, why should we, an established bank who’s kept to the rules and done the job properly, pay, or have any disadvantage as a result of err … what followed?
CG Hmmm.
Dr M Err … but I don’t know whether that is something that would be seen as anti-the Isle of Man Bank ...
RR Well, it’s an odd thing, isn’t it?
CG It’s a jolly interesting little anecdote, though ... hmmm. So where did that leave you in terms of finding money for compensation, then?
Dr M We didn’t have any …
CG Right.
Dr M ... and of course with a reserve of only one million against the government expenditure of that time … there was no way in which we could compensate.
RR But even with four million – even if you’d borrowed four million you couldn’t …
Dr M We could have … we could have …
RR You could have done a little bit, I suppose.
Dr M We could have dealt with the smaller, and in particular, the more local people. 19
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RR Hmmm.
Dr M And it wasn’t ...
RR But that did happen in the end, didn’t it?
Dr M It happened in the end, years afterwards. (laughter)
RR The actual assignment?
Dr M I remember ‘cos I was re-elected, having been out for the four years. And one of the first things we did when I got back in again, was actually agreeing to the … to the … payment of …
RR Compensation …
Dr M ... of compensation.
CG That was years later then.
Dr M Ummm?
CG That was years later then.
RR Yes, yes – I’ve got that in, I mean, that, that … I picked up somewhere …
Dr M Yes. Well, I mean, it was almost history by that time.
RR Hmmm, hmmm.
CG So that was the reason why no compensation was forth coming – you just didn’t have any money.
Dr M No.
RR There was also an argument …
CG Gosh – that’s interesting. 20
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RR ... I mean, there’s a Caveat Emptor argument that the SIB was already attracting some comment – people were even putting their money in, in the last week!
Dr M Yea.
RR And if you put it into a bank and get more interest, then you are taking a greater risk.
Dr M Oh, you are taking a risk.
CG There’s all that, but there’s the government’s social conscience, isn’t it, I mean … in the end, the government should have been regulating it and it wasn’t.
RR Well, the supervision (laughter) was different …
Dr M Yea, hmmm.
CG Ummm … and you did try to do something for those people, but … I’m sure it was worth four million just to shut Gwendolyn Lamb up, anyway. (laughter)
RR It hasn’t, ‘cos she’s still … she still, in the paper the other day saying something.
Dr M Is she?
RR Oh yes.
CG Was she?
RR Oh yes … (laughter) … oh yes, you won’t shut a good complainer up. (laughter)
CG Oh God! She was mad!
Dr M Oh yes.
CG I remember interviewing her once on the … we recorded the interview, and she was saying all this and going on and on and on and we finished the tape and I 21
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went and played it to somebody, and then she came on the phone again saying, ‘Do you want to cut this bit out and cut that bit out?’ and all the rest of it you see, and we had to get it by some of our lawyers, because if someone freely consents to do an interview, provided you don’t edit it, they can’t stop you broadcasting it.
RR Yea.
Dr M Really?
CG We never did broadcast it because it was just outrageous. (laughter) We would have edited it, but given we were in that position with her then, we either did it all, or nothing, so we took it off, but, you can imagine what it was like, and … what she was saying.
RR I was told by a Barclays manager, at the time, that she’d been in to see Barclays where she had the money, and he … she said she was going to put it in the SIB and he said, ‘Well, don’t do that, come and see me next week and we’ll talk about what you can do.’ But in the meantime, she put it in the SIB.
CG Oh – so she was only in there for a few days before it crashed?
RR Well that’s the impression I got when … may not be all her money. It wasn’t a huge sum of money that she had in there.
Dr M Oh no, no.
RR £20,000 or something … I mean – a lot for her, but …
Dr M Hmmm.
RR In the great scheme of things, not so …
CG Who was the other chap who was also … err … very vociferous afterwards – didn’t he live up by the Nab somewhere?
RR Yea, yea – he had a lot of money.
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Dr M Oh there was one – yes, there was one couple …
CG Yea.
Dr M ... who had put their entire savings …
CG That’s right.
Dr M ... in and … err ...
CG What was his name? I can’t remember it.
Dr M I can’t remember now.
RR It was … Ken … I’ve got it in here somewhere.
CG Ken?
Dr M But I mean – they had to admit that it was because of the interest rate …
CG Yes, of course … yes.
Dr M But instead of … ummm … you know, spreading your … your investments.
CG Yes … yes.
Dr M In fact, ever since that day, I never entirely bank with one bank! (laughter)
RR Well, well, well as a matter of ...
Dr M When you deal with people … bankers have said to me, ‘Why can’t you put all your money …?’ I said, ‘Once having lived through the SIB you …’ (laughter)
CG It changes your perception.
RR But all the … all the banks that I’ve – I mean, I’ve been a member of the board of Singers and I’ve been on various captive insurance companies and still am, but we always spread our money about. We never put more than … 23
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Dr M Yea.
RR ... whatever we determine – half a million or a million – in any one bank ...
CG Hmmm.
RR ... or in the case of Singers, more than that, but …
CG Did you hear the story of Vernon Nickolls?
Dr M Yes … I don’t know – I honestly don’t know what was the basis of that or who did it ...
CG Right.
Dr M ... or what ...
RR Widely repeated! (laughter)
CG Widely repeated, but we can’t actually pin it down, you know, hmmm.
Dr M Yes … and he’s no longer with us anyway.
CG To verify it – no, he’s not.
RR Nor is he there to sue us (laughter) … for liable. Not that that’s a good reason for putting it ...
CG So were you hammered in Tynwald, personally, or … what was the atmosphere at question time and so on?
Dr M Oh well … yes … I can’t quite remember the attitude of … Tynwald. Obviously they were err … deeply shocked and … worst of all, that of course it involved this terrible exposure in the UK.
CG Hmmm.
Dr M Ummm … but I can’t honestly quite remember having to battle through. I 24
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remember there was a battle when we decided to split the Financial Supervision Commission … ummm …
RR People in Tynwald – I can’t remember a great deal of blaming of …
Dr M No.
RR ... the Finance Board, at the time … but I mean, I … you received it, if there was … I can’t remember that.
Dr M No, I can’t remember any. Err … I mean, it was err …
RR Ken Potts he was called.
CG Ken Potts.
Dr M Ah.
RR It’s come to me.
Dr M Yes.
CG Yes, well done. So whose idea was Streets Financial then, was that …?
Dr M Oh I think Bill Dawson got that … err … but they continued to – to help with more or less all through that time ... err … that time and subsequently, and they certainly err … got the people who mattered into their err … offices, and we … err …
CG Gradually restored the reputation … hmmm.
Dr M Oh yes – they, I would say they played a considerable part in …
RR One of the interesting things about that – and I remember at the time people in London – people on the Island saying, ‘Silly Isle of Man, getting it all wrong.’ But the City of London had not been much cleverer in the 1970s with the secondary banking crisis…
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Dr M Oh yes!
RR Where there was a whole series of banks that had either gone bust or would have to be propped up. Jim Noakes had actually been involved in that, interestingly, in the, in the support ...
Dr M Oh.
RR ... ‘cos he was given that job by the Governor of the Bank of England – so he told us ...
Dr M Hmmm.
RR ... to try and stabilise the position.
Dr M Hmmm.
RR So, I mean, I know yes, we got it wrong and we did things and we didn’t supervise it …
Dr M Hmmm.
RR ... but we were not alone in making – getting – making a big mistake. And the thing that annoyed me at the time was, people say, ‘Silly Isle of Man – silly little place like that!’ When the City of London itself had not – City of London itself had not done much better.
Dr M Oh no.
RR A few years earlier … and as you say, it did stabilise.
Dr M Hmmm.
RR It stabilised once you got the FSC in which got going very quickly.
Dr M It was got going incredibly quickly, and ummm … but I think the whole mood in the Island had changed, and certainly the mood in the banks had changed, and I think even the banks themselves, you know, wanted to be seen to be … err … 26
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RR Pulling with the big boys.
Dr M Yea, hmmm. And, of course, what err … err … Jim Noakes … err … gradually did … err … sometimes I must say … since, you know, since I’ve left all of this, but ummm … he of course, one by one, gradually squeezed out the banks which were owned by one person.
CG Yes.
Dr M Err … it took him a good few years to get the last one out, really (laughter)… by raising the err … you know, the annual … err … capital that had to be … err …
RR Capital adequacy sort of …
Dr M ... held by the Financial Supervision Commission. So gradually the one man banks, as you might say, were squeezed out because they just couldn’t afford – even the big boys couldn’t afford to allocate that money ... err … that wasn’t earning any interest year by year.
RR What – did you have a lot of … when Jim was squeezing out the banks, which he did, in a way the public didn’t particularly notice, did it?
Dr M No, no.
RR It was very discreetly done.
Dr M Oh yes.
RR But did you get a lot of people coming along and saying that you shouldn’t be doing this – Jim Noakes is ruining our bank, or …?
Dr M Well I, when I … err … lost … err … the election in ’86, ummm … err … I was err … given several directorships, ummm … a few insurance companies – the same one as you – and I was on the board of the Anglo Manx Bank.
RR Hmmm.
Dr M And, of course, the Anglo Manx Bank was very much a one man … 27
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RR Dr White, was it?
Dr M I can’t remember what his name was.
RR I think he was called White, wasn’t he?
Dr M Yea? Anyway, he was immensely wealthy, and still has property in Athol Street, I believe, ummm, but he got very upset that each year they were piling on the amounts that had to be held, and ummm … he in the end … I went along with him to err … to see ... err … the Treasury Minister at that time, err … Don Gelling, to see if they would think again, but they flatly refused and …
CG But … but you, I mean, you were on both sides, there …
RR Yea.
CG Because …
Dr M By that time I was supporting the …
CG But presumably you could see the logic of what the government was going to do …
Dr M Oh yea.
CG ... because you’d help set it up?
Dr M Yea.
RR We always had – we did the audit of the Anglo Manx Bank …
Dr M Did you?
RR ... and Neal Crowe did it, but he was always a little uneasy.
Dr M Yea.
RR So it wasn’t as straight forward as all that. 28
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Dr M Hmmm.
CG So whose idea was the FSC actually, then? Was it your idea?
Dr M What to …?
CG The FSC – the setting it up?
Dr M I, I can’t answer that directly, I, I mean, we were all talking all the time with Bank of England, and err …
CG Hmmm, right, yea.
Dr M ... and Bill Dawson, and ourselves, and …
CG Yea – it just came about.
RR I remember a story which you might remember to confirm whether I remember it correctly … when we had the meeting in the Millennium Room …
Dr M Yea.
RR ... and Jim Cain came in…
Dr M Oh yea.
RR ... and I was sort of there, and I think Geoffrey Crowe. And there was a … Finance Board Members. And Charles Cain was there. Do you remember Charles being there? Charles did an extraordinary thing – well, not that extraordinary for Charles, but (laughter) he, he announced, before we’d said anything at all, that it was quite clear that the bank was sound – the SIB was sound and that we … all they needed to do was just bolster confidence. By the time Jim Cain had finished, Charles Cain then spoke again, and he said that clearly the bank was bust! (laughter) I mean – wonderful piece of Charles Cain! (laughter)
CG What, this was after it had collapsed?
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RR Yes!
Dr M Oh yea.
RR After, after we’d – after the licence was suspended. After we’d done our investigation, we went in to report to the Finance Board … Jim had all the stuff there.
CG And he was trying to claim it was solvent?
RR And Charles Cain, who was in the House of Keys … and must have been on the Finance Board – I don’t know whether he was …
Dr M He wasn’t, actually …
RR Well, he was there.
Dr M I don’t know how he got there.
RR He was in the room ...
Dr M Hmmm.
RR ... and he said that he had been a banker and he’d been with whichever bank in Africa it was – a respectful bank – and he set up ummm … Jim Slater – Slater Walker …
CG Slater Walker – yes.
Dr M Hmmm.
RR ... which had sort of collapsed for other reasons (laughter) – not really because of the Isle of Man, but because of Jim Slater’s particular policy … in England, and he was, by this time, doing something else …
End of side one
Dr M ... err ... probably, probably – I, I can’t remember, but in that err … initial 30
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report, err … made by the Bank of England people who came over, they may have mentioned setting up a Financial Supervision Commission … I can’t recall.
RR Yes, I can’t remember – that was the – I think they probably did.
Dr M Yes.
RR May not have defined how it should be, but …
Dr M No.
RR ... think they recommend it. [sound of pages being turned] I’ve probably got that here … ‘cos the various reports – you remember James Penn … err … who … Dick Penn’s son, did a degree, an MA, and he came to see you, amongst other things, and he wrote a thesis on it for his MA thesis.
Dr M No, I can’t remember.
RR And he saw you for various things – oh, it would be a long time ago – it would be ten years ago.
Dr M Hmmm.
RR And err … and he had been through the reports and Farrant reported, obviously, the first thing which … which sort of set up the reporting, and then you took certain action as a consequence of that, and I think that’s when the SIB came in. You’d already appointed Martin Owen …
Dr M Oh yes, I know.
RR ... in the Autumn.
Dr M Yea.
RR ... to replace Peter Duncan.
Dr M Hmmm. 31
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RR But I’m sure, I’m sure you’re right. [sound of pages being turned] This is my draft so far. (laughter) I’ve done quite a lot …
CG Then, of course, you went on to deal with other things … we remember Mr Growcut [sp ???] ...
Dr M (laughter) Oh yes.
RR ... and bread crisis.
Dr M Yes. (laughter)
RR (laughter) Mr Growcut [sp ???] ...
Dr M Not to mention the … err … tanker drivers.
CG Well, that was an amazing weekend, that was, with you stuck in Government Office with Bernie Moffett, and it was a Bank Holiday weekend before the races were going to start, wasn’t it?
Dr M That’s it, yes.
CG And the Island was umm …
Dr M Actually without fuel. (laughter)
CG Desperate situation. The Practise Week was about to start, and Bernie brought all the tanker drivers out, and you were head-to-head on that Saturday afternoon, and I remember Bert Quirk ringing me up and saying that ummm … just to let me know that the hoteliers were going to march down the prom and break into the err … Shell depot at the pier and requisition the lorries themselves, you see. (laughter) So I said, ‘Well, if you could just hang on a couple of hours, Bert, because I know Edgar is in there with Bernie – there might be an agreement …’ and you couldn’t find any staff to service your committee …
Dr M That’s it. (laughter)
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CG ... and you were coming out every hour, ringing me in the News Room (laughter). It’s an astonishing err … situation!
RR I remember one of the wonderful remarks made, at eleven o’clock in the morning, when Will Kirkpatrick always was in The Greasy Spoon …
CG Yes! (laughter)
RR ... together with Maxi Lance [sp ???] and various other people, drinking his awful coffee, and ogling the girls, Bernie Moffett saying, ‘We can’t find Mr Kirkpatrick – he’s never to be found – we’ve no idea where he is.’ And you can hear the Isle of Man saying, ‘He’s in The Greasy Spoon!’ (laughter)
CG Yes … yea but, that Friday morning before, he was totally drunk on the radio.
Dr M Hmmm.
CG David’s done an interview with him and he was …
RR What – Will?
CG Will – yes!
RR Yea, well, I’m not surprised.
CG ... completely out of it.
RR Difficult man, Will. (laughter) My wife’s cousin’s brother-in-law.
Dr M Oh yes.
CG And then there’s Mr Oatway …
RR Who’s Mr … who are all these wonderful people?!
CG Well, I mean, you and Shelia – Shelia used to bring you a cup of tea at lunchtime, and I’d come up to interview – Shelia McCabe – it was really you and her running the government (laughter) at that time. 33
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CG No, Mr Oatway came over on the unemployment, do you remember, and has that big meeting at the Gaiety? And Chris Robershaw rang someone to say that they’d seen a gun in his luggage, in The Sefton – they asked him to leave – I think he then went on to The Empress. Do you not remember him – there was quite a lot of unemployment at that time anyway.
Dr M Oh, there was, yes.
CG But he … he’d got this big meeting in The Gaiety Theatre, and he offered all these people work, putting flyers on cars in London. And he shipped them all down to London – it was a most – he was one of those people who used to come to the Isle of Man an assume that his wonderful scheme would get unlimited grants from the Department of Industry (laughter) to make replica Rolls Royce’s or some odd sort of thing, you know.
Dr M (laughter) Yea.
CG He thought we were so gullible, you know. He went away again – crestfallen, thank God. (laughter) And, of course, you were busy promoting the Island, anyway, weren’t you, then?
Dr M Oh yes we were all ... over all ...
CG In New York and all sorts of places …
Dr M Oh yea, yea.
RR I went to New York on that expedition ...
Dr M Yes, yes.
RR ... which was curious misfire….
Dr M Yea.
RR ... because they didn’t know how they could use the Isle of Man, and we didn’t know how they could use the Isle of Man, either, I don’t think! (laughter)
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Dr M Well, it was really an awareness …
RR It was awareness.
Dr M ... and, strangely enough, err … although nothing very much happened on that actual visit … ummm … a lot of the accountancy people we met ... err … for instance ummm … subsequently err … became more interested in the Isle of Man.
RR Well, Peat’s were already here. Arthur Anderson got in with that curious man who passed himself off as an accountant.
Dr M Well I know Arthur Anderson were keen on getting in, yea.
RR Well, they’d used … what was it called? The man in Ramsey – big fat man in … who had Ocra and various other things.
CG Oh … I know who you mean – didn’t he do a … time-share, as well?
RR Yea – he was mixed up with all sorts of things.
CG You remember his name – he was in that …
RR I know his name perfectly well, but I can’t remember.
CG Water Street, or somewhere, wasn’t he?
RR Yes, he was, but he ... we had a meeting at Arthur Anderson’s – they announced, to everybody’s astonishment, and a good deal of gasping …
CG Henson? Henderson …?
RR Hen … Hen … Henwood!
CG Henwood.
RR Peter Henwood.
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Dr M Oh yes.
CG That’s right.
RR He passed himself off as a Chartered Accountant and he would be Arthur Anderson in the Isle of Man, and he got a huge brass plate – about this size – with the words, ‘Arthur Anderson,’ engraved upon it. It didn’t last very long. But he conned them into … he’s very persuasive.
Dr M Hmmm.
RR He did a lot of … but that was … that was the most notable thing, except for the selling of the Manx whisky.
Dr M Oh yes … yea.
RR Do you remember the …
Dr M Yes, yes.
RR ... the white whisky.
CG Lucy Langdow [sp ???], yes.
RR Suddenly a man appeared in the middle of a reception with white whisky (laughter) …
CG Hmmm.
RR ... quite sort of … stole the show. And all sorts of people went down to the Bronx with the white whisky … to various low dives … people like Charles Cain and …
Dr M Hmmm.
CG Well, it’s supposed to be very fashionable in New York, wasn’t it?
RR Oh yes – well it was after this, but they can’t remember what happened at the 36
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end of that evening! (laughter) Andy [unclear] and people …
CG You were obviously concerned about the financial security of the Island at that time, I mean, how … how important did you see the finance sector?
Dr M Oh, it was … it had to be!
CG Hmmm.
Dr M Because there wasn’t going to be any other ...
CG Hmmm.
Dr M ... I mean, if you looked at natural resources, apart from grass and the sea around, there ain’t any.
CG Hmmm ... and tourism and all that were rapidly fading.
Dr M Yea.
CG Hmmm.
Dr M Err … so … there wasn’t much alternative. Strangely enough, we attracted all kinds of attention, though. We had quite a large delegation from the errr … Finance Ministry in Tokyo … the Japanese came over and stayed a whole week – working out how we were doing what we were doing.
RR Oh!
Dr M Err … I couldn’t believe that this was what they were doing! (laughter) And that they had senior people – senior civil servants, and err … political people as well …
CG Right.
Dr M ... and, later … err … the Irish, at that time, were trying to find out how to set up their finance sector. I know we went over there … umm … all within that five year period, you know, that ended in ‘86. So, yes, I mean, I think, in terms 37
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of umm … promotion, it was first of all awareness to just make people aware that the Isle of Man existed, and then to say, okay, well we’ve got this, this and this – come and have a look, sort of business. And err … well, I mean … all the various firms joined in … your firm came along and so on. So, although the immediate impact didn’t seem to be very great, umm … as it added up, and of course, the financial situation in ’87 was quite different – made a great surplus of taxation income. So, between – in that five years, I know it could be claimed that there was an upsurge all the way round, but of course, we were … I think we got an awful lot of advantage out of the err … original Thatcher – you know, freeing of err … that meant an awful lot, and of course we also became aware, and I became aware, and it’s since just grown and grown and grown, that, in the world there is a whole bucket of money, that actually won’t go back to any domicile – it doesn’t actually belong to any domicile and it’s growing and growing and growing, and now, I suspect from odd things I’ve read, that it’s the global switching around of money that actually doesn’t belong to any country, is so great that, if it moves from A to B in one day, always creates a financial crisis in the world.
CG Hmmm.
Dr M Now, at some point, somebody had got to err…you know, see how you cope with this, because individual governments are themselves not big enough to actually control it. And if one sets oneself up as a reliable home for this money, and pay a decent rate of interest, and it’s secure – I mean, one of the things I kept repeating and repeating, err … was the fact that if you have ex-patriot money, and you want to bring it as close to home as possible, and yet not under the Chancellor of the Exchequer, bring it to the Isle of Man …
CG Hmmm.
Dr M ... and it … I don’t know, I’ve never been an ex-pat Brit, but I would have thought that most of them would feel a lot happier having their money a bit closer to home, where they can …
RR Hmm – they understand it, don’t they?
Dr M ... come and have a look. And if they go to the UK, they can come out and have a look to see if it’s still there. 38
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CG Hopefully it will be, yes. (laughter)
Dr M But I mean that’s a bit different from having it in Bermuda or Cayman Islands or somewhere like that. You can actually come and speak to the people and so on. And I’m sure that err … this huge deposit base that we’ve got here at the moment is largely because it’s as close to the London market as you can get. Let’s face it – it goes straight into the London market anyway!
RR The London market benefits from that …
Dr M Yes.
RR ... and so Brown [Gordon Brown] actually benefits from having this money ...
Dr M Of course they do, course they do.
RR ... in the Channel Islands or here; as against being in Singapore or Hong Kong.
Dr M Well, most of that money immediately goes into the UK, but its home is here.
RR One of the features of the last few years has been that people do off-shore stuff near to home, so that, on the whole, Americans are now that side of the Atlantic, and the Europeans are this side of the Atlantic. It helps with time zones, it helps with familiarity …
Dr M Hmmm.
RR But that’s been a trend when it’s been more scattered, and now it’s … it’s much nearer to home.
CG But in developing all those in ’82 – ’85 – ’86, that sort of period, what sort of relationship did you have with the British Government – were they supportive of what you were doing?
Dr M Oh, we’ve always had, we’ve always had … what absolutely amazed me – it’s nothing to do with this – but, of course, during the latter part of that period, we also set up the ministerial government, and I can’t remember once ever – as 39
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Chairman of Ex Co – ever asking anybody in the Home Office if they minded! (laughter)
CG Right! Really?! (laughter)
Dr M (laughter) I just told them we were doing it ...
CG Right.
Dr M ... and nobody objected.
CG Right, right.
Dr M Err … so, yes, we did have a very good relationship, well, after all, they would be feeling far happier that we were err … well regulated and …
CG Yes, yes.
Dr M ... and looking after our affairs.
CG Obviously they would be pleased with that, but the policy of bringing this … part of this slurp of money that was going round, and settling it here, was not a problem for them?
Dr M Oh, oh no … (laughter) it was – as has just been said, it actually helps them.
CG Helps them, yea, right.
RR And they have some influence on what we’re doing …
Dr M Oh, of course they do, yes.
RR Where, if it’s in Singapore, they have no influence.
Dr M Yea … I mean, if we really did something … you know … a bit outrageous, they’d be on the phone like mad, you know.
RR One of the, one of the odd things about the SIB collapse, is that the banking 40
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deposits went up!
Dr M Yes, yes, because it drew attention to the Isle of Man.
RR The publicity … they say there’s no bad publicity ... that … it shot up!
CG That’s interesting … hmmm.
Dr M There was only one visit of one group that … err … I personally was very … unhappy that it didn’t come to anything. But during that period, sometime, we had a visit from the Hong Kong and Shang Hi Bank, who were still, of course, in Hong Kong. And umm … they were obviously … I hadn’t realised it perhaps at the time, but they were obviously looking round for how they were going to shift their … their headquarters out of Hong Kong … and they came here to see what the situation was in the Isle of Man – they didn’t say why – but I think we were just too small at the time.
CG Hmmm.
Dr M Err … but I mean, they’re here now in a big way, aren’t they?
RR Well, they’ve got …
Dr M Four or five hundred people …
RR They always regarded, I think, Jersey as being the off-shore centre for the British Isles.
Dr M Hmmm.
RR And they – I remember them coming and looking …
Dr M Hmmm.
RR Anything else?
CG No, no – that was very interesting.
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RR It is interesting, actually …
Dr M I hope nothing I’ve said is libellous, or …
RR I hope not – I’m going to have it … I’m going to have it checked for libel (laughter) …
CG We’re having the whole book read by a lawyer …
Dr M Oh, I see.
CG ... because lots of people have said lots of things, you know … and ummm … I mean, obviously Roger’s very responsible and discreet, but umm ... just in case. (laughter)
RR But, in order not to lose everything, you’re going to repeat, or put in stories which some people might not be very happy about.
CG Hmmm.
RR I mean, some of it is … is because it’s in the report of Chadwick or whoever.
Dr M Oh yes.
RR I mean, they still won’t be happy about that, but there it is, if it’s on record, then it obviously goes in, and that isn’t an issue, because they should have done it sooner, you know?
Dr M Yea. Who is sponsoring our book?
CG The Heritage Foundation.
RR The Heritage Foundation.
Dr M Oh, they are?!
RR Yes, I’m … I’m doing it on their commission, as you might say – they asked me to. 42
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CG Not to be confused with Manx National Heritage, no … it’s our little book, actually.
Dr M Yes.
RR Who do publish things regularly, don’t they?
CG Oh, we do, yes.
RR Also support cultural events.
Dr M Well, somebody rang me up shortly after you rang me.
RR Dursley, was it?
Dr M Err … no, no. Umm … somebody was writing a book on the way in which the ministerial government …
CG Oh – I’m sorry, yes, that’s another book we’re doing, that’s Professor David Kermode.
Dr M No, I don’t think it was …
CG David … David Kermode – he’s doing the history of ministerial government in the Isle of Man and I’m sure he’s been to see you, or will want to.
Dr M Right, well, they were …
RR Did he write one of the books about the Island?
CG Off-shore Island Politics, yes.
Dr M I have met him several times in the past.
CG Oh right – so it wasn’t him that rang you this time, then?
Dr M No, it was umm … I can’t remember his name now – didn’t recognise it immediately. And what he just wanted was … err … some photographs – did I 43
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have any photographs of Executive Council and Executive Council Members, because, once the ministerial government was set up, there was a photograph at the beginning of each session …
CG Yes.
Dr M ... so that each … ummm … each Council of Ministers was recorded.
CG Right.
Dr M Well, of course, nobody ever took any photographs of the Executive Council.
CG Oh, really?
Dr M Nobody was ever allowed in, anyway. (laughter)
CG No, no.
Dr M And … ummm …
CG So there is none for ’85 or any of that period, then?
Dr M No.
CG Is that right?
Dr M Yes … so … ummm … well, I …
RR Are you sponsoring Professor Kermode?
CG We are, yes.
RR I hope it will be a bit more readable than his last one.
CG No, it won’t, no … (laughter). It’s dreadful, but I feel we should do it. Well, I’m glad you mentioned that, so there’s no point in asking you for any photographs, ‘cos that’s one thing we’ll need to do at some stage is to get some photographs together. 44
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Dr M Hmmm … well, the only photograph … whoever it was who rang, said had I even got any photographs of me during that period, and the only photographs that I could find ummm … was … there was a ummm … an investors meeting at King William’s College, by the London Stock Exchange, who came over and did an investors’ sort of gathering, and err … I was one of the four speakers. And there’s a photograph there … that’s the only one I could find …
CG Really?!
Dr M ... I mean, apart from, you know, ummm … newspaper things.
RR Yes.
CG Right, oh well, maybe we could borrow that at some stage … and then you rang me, I remember, from London, got me out of Tynwald.
Dr M (laughter) What?
CG Do you remember that? And said, ‘I want you to be the first to know, I’ve decided to stand down from the Legislative Council and contest the seat in Garth.’
Dr M (laughter) Probably the most stupid thing I ever did!
CG I was a bit surprised, I must say!
RR Well, they on the whole, haven’t been terribly successful, those people who’ve stood down. We’ve had hiccups, and we’ve had it with Singer, now, and we had it with Irving – he stood down, and didn’t immediately get in.
CG And then that night – you know David and I alternated the constituencies up to that election, and I ended up with you and Charlie … (laughter) … at the very last night but one before the election, and you – when we’d switched the microphone off and gone off air – one of you said to the other – and I can’t remember which one it was – ‘You are a lying old bastard, you know!’ (laughter)
RR It was probably you saying it to Charlie – and perfectly reasonably. (laughter) 45
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CG And I was covering two of my two political heroes, absolutely having a hum- dinger of a row after it had gone off air! (laughter)
Dr M Well, you realise, it would never have been me! (laughter)
CG Oh well, marvellous times. Okay?
RR Lovely – and thank you very much.
END OF INTERVIEW
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