TIME to REMEMBER: Tony Brown
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Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Tony Brown MANX HERITAGE FOUNDATION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT ORAL HISTORY TRANSCRIPT ‘TIME TO REMEMBER’ Interviewee(s): Mr Tony Brown MHK Date of birth: Place of birth: Interviewer(s) Roger Rawcliffe and Charles Guard Recorded by: Charles Guard Date recorded: No recording date Topic(s): Collapse of Savings & Investment Bank Clifford Irving and Jack Nicholson Pressure from the European Union New Companies legislation Changes in legislative set-up Financial Crime Unit Bills Zero Company Tax Bill Distribution Tax New Customs and Excise Agreement Common Purse Agreement Terry Groves’ ‘Think Tank’ Tourism in the 60s, 70s and 80s New Residency Policy Money laundering Department of Home Affairs Tony Brown - Mr B Roger Rawcliffe - RR Charles Guard - CG 1 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Tony Brown RR ... you, better than anybody, both by length of … Mr B Hmmm. RR … looking at the Island and being involved in it all… Mr B Right. RR ... and by being in the [unclear] ... Mr B Yea. RR ... you’d have a better idea than anyone else. Mr B Hopefully. (laughter) RR In general, I mean, I’m going to go and see John Aston … Mr B Yes, yes, I know what you mean … RR ... about specific matter … Mr B Yea, yea. RR ... but, but just to sort of, go back to the very beginning … when you came in, it was 1981, I think, wasn’t it? Mr B That’s right, and this happened in 82’, so we were new members. RR What were your – have you any recollections? Mr B Well, absolutely. I mean, well, I came in November ’81, this arose in early ’82 – I can’t remember which month it was. RR Well, the licence was withdrawn on something like the 26th June 1982 … Mr B Right. 2 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Tony Brown RR ... ‘cos we all had to go in for two weeks, the whole lot. Mr B Yes, yea, well, I can remember - remember it happening; one, very much so because I was a new member – literally a new member; and suddenly there was this emm … I was at home working at the time, or somewhere in town, and the police were looking for us (laughter) because they’d sent the police out to get the Members of Tynwald to come in … RR Had they?!! Mr B ... because there was – the Governor had called – because he was Presiding Officer then – had called an urgent meeting of Tynwald in private to discuss an issue, and we weren’t even told what it was, I mean, we were just told that there was an urgent meeting of Tynwald to be held in private – I think, that afternoon, it was, I think. You’d find that out, but I mean, it was, I was – what! You know, a new Member, didn’t know this sort of thing happened (laughter) and of course, under the old … RR Well, I hope it didn’t happen very often!! Mr B Well, it didn’t – I think that’s the only time I ever remember us going into Private Session in Tynwald. Because, one, it’s so unusual, anyway, although in those days, you see, Keys, it was a regular thing for Keys to go into private … ummm, but it wasn’t regular for Tynwald, and it was certainly irregular for the Governor to summoned Tynwald to sit in private. That was quite – I think that was quite unique, actually. I certainly have never heard of it before. CG So the police came for you then? Mr B So the police were looking for us to say you were needed urgently for a sitting of Tynwald which was going to take place that afternoon in private, that the Governor had summoned, because, of course, he’d Tynwald to sit. And so I remember that very clearly as sort of – ‘Wow,’ you know, ‘this is something different, I wonder how often this happens?’ ... so yes, so, as a new Member, I mean this was sort of a real shock as, you know. RR Aye, it would be! 3 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Tony Brown Mr B I can actually remember the … I mean, I remember the feeling was sort of ‘Wow’ – you know, quite exciting, ‘what’s this all about?!’ ‘Cos we hadn’t been told what it was, we were just told that there was an urgent meeting. So, you know, your brain’s going, ‘what’s this about – I wonder what’s what?!’ And there was no hint of the SIB [Savings & Investment Bank] at all – you know – certainly to me – I was a new Member. It might have been known by executive council members, but it certainly wasn’t known by … RR Until it all came up, I certainly didn’t know. Mr B Yea? So of course then, you know, I had to rush about, and then get changed and come into Douglas, which we did, and we were then in Tynwald and briefed on it. And that’s really the end of that aspect of it, ‘cos of course, it is in Private Session. CG Who briefed you? Mr B Oh – it would be Edgar Mann – he was Chairman of … CG Yes, yes right. Mr B Chairman of Treasury in those days – it would be Edgar, I would think. RR We saw him the day before yesterday. Mr B Yes – he’s doing well I think, from what I hear, yea. So that’s where we went and that really is, in a way, that was the initial reaction. Certainly the reaction after that and the implications of what went on sort of developed as people found out what happened – we all remember the stories, the major press when it came out, and everything. And the impact generally – I remember within government was Members feeling very down, I mean, Treasury and everybody really feeling, ‘Oh, this is an absolute disaster for the Isle of Man,’ – because it was – it was a major, major issue. And sort of realism at higher political level – because I was very much a junior one – that something had to be done, and done quickly to safeguard the future of the Isle of Man. I mean, the Isle of Man was in a serious situation. I mean, in those days, don’t forget, we only had one and a half million pound in reserve. We had literally budgeted to keep going – struggling to keep going. And in those early days – ’81 through to about – well, 4 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Tony Brown certainly ’85, I mean the income to the Isle of Man was pretty restricted. I mean we were struggling to fund education. I mean, I can remember very well, you know, Victor Kneale jumping up and down because the Department of Education – sorry, the Board of Education in those days – was being put under considerable pressure about school meals, about provision of facilities for the schools and so on. And that was just one area – I mean, health services was under pressure – so money was very, very restricted, and this was a major blow, so I can remember very clearly, you know, Chairman of Ex Co [Executive Council] and all those really being concerned about this. So the atmosphere was very down, I remember that, but very determined to improve it. And the thing that came out pretty quickly really – and in those days, don’t forget, which is different to today, because Tynwald was also the government as well as the parliament, which it now isn’t, but it was then, because all the Boards were Boards of Tynwald, so therefore Tynwald was the government, which is why it went into Private Session in a way, because it was then the government, as Tynwald, dealing with it. I mean, that wouldn’t happen today. Because what would happen today is; the work would be done and then there would be a statement made in Tynwald in public, which is right these days. RR Hmmm. Mr B Hmmm, but there was a very – they were very determined – I remember it well – they were very determined and determined very quickly, that we needed to become a high quality jurisdiction – it was the only way forward for us. We had to have a high standard, because if we didn’t have a high standard we – nobody would touch us. And they made that decision pretty quickly if I remember. RR Yes, I wonder when that … Mr B That would be … RR ... ‘cos you got your shock in the first instance, sort of thing. Mr B Well, they started introducing legislation, I would have thought, within twelve months. RR Oh certainly, oh definitely – it was less than that, it was less than that. 5 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Tony Brown Mr B There was new legislation, and that – but that was quick, you know. RR You got Noakes and Duncan Naylor in by January. Mr B Yea. RR You’d got Farrant in by September, I should think. Mr B Yea – so the legislation came through quickly. The err … CG The Executive had made this decision? Mr B Oh yea. CG Yes – that would be on Tynwald, obviously. Mr B Well, Keys – the legislation came straight into the Keys. There was legislation in relation to the Jim Noakes one. I think that was secondary legislation under – I’m not sure if it was under Statutory Boards Act, it would be? RR Don’t know – he was appointed under contract in some manner … Mr B Yea.