Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
MANX HERITAGE FOUNDATION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT ORAL HISTORY TRANSCRIPT
‘TIME TO REMEMBER’
Interviewee: Mr Peter Thrower
Date of birth:
Place of birth:
Interviewer: Roger Rawcliffe and Charles Guard
Recorded by: Charles Guard
Date recorded: 23rd April 2007
Topic(s): Isle of Man booklet for UK ex-patriots Working in Hong Kong Buying ex-farmers cottage for retirement National Trust cards Isle of Man Bank advertisement in Hong Kong paper Hazel Hannan and Tubby Taubman Isle of Man Farming and Wildlife Advisory Group Farming fraternity Euro Club and Miles Walker Felices ice-cream and local restaurants Veal and organic beef production ‘Come-overs’ and ‘Whinging Poms’ Taxation and pensions Nobles Hospital and surgeons
Peter Thrower - Mr T Stella Thrower - Mrs T Roger Rawcliffe - RR Charles Guard - CG
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Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
Mr T ... starting at the front, here, this little booklet ... which Charles has seen, and err ... we agree it’s really rather well done of that period ... and umm ... I’ve umm ...
RR (laughter) Contented person sitting in their deckchair!
Mr T That’s right.
CG Do you know him?
Mr T You see him – the wife toiling in the background – wonderful, isn’t it?
CG He was quite well known, though, wasn’t he?
Mr T That’s right ... Tam ... here we are, pardon me, umm ... Mr and Mrs Tamtrained [??? sp] of Onchan.
CG Oh right.
Mr T I think it was Onchan, wasn’t it?
CG Wasn’t he involved in the bank ... or Town Clerk, or something?
Mr T I don’t know, he umm ... (laughter) ... he may have been in the Royal Navy – this is at the Trafalgar Day Ball.
CG Ah right, yes.
RR Yea, he’s got his medal on there.
Mr T Sorry?
RR He’s got his medal on, so it looks as if he was in ...
Mr T That’s right, there, and umm ... the Mayor and Mayoress. But if you look through, there are undoubtedly the ... err ... people who do it, and pictures of the lady who – I shouldn’t say this, but she looks slightly agonised, doesn’t she? (laughter) Anyway, there we are.
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Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
RR That’s not a bad little booklet, is it?
Mr T It’s not bad. As a matter of fact, you ... you’d be flat-out to find a better one today, I think.
RR Hmm.
Mr T So ... I’ll stick that in there, because we had them in a different place, you see. So, that’s what we got back, and then, we follow on with umm ... various bits of umm ... communication. There’s a ... quite a long letter from the bank, here, which ... umm ... indicates they’re not umm ... they’re not un-eager to get hold of people from elsewhere. But the whole thing, I think you’ll agree, was from that, is pitched toward the ex ... or the UK ex-patriot ...
RR Oh, I’m sure, yea.
Mr T ... and not to Australians like us, for example. (laughter)
RR Yea, hmm. You’re Australians, are you?
Mr T Both of us, yea.
RR Are you?
Mr T Hmm.
RR Oh well, you’ve got all sorts of little games, extreme player – or did have.
Mr T So that’s the drill. There is, incidentally, there, what we might call a personal invitation from Charles Kerruish, who was then ...
RR Charlie himself, eh?!
Mr T H. C., not Sir Charles, umm ... inviting us to the Isle of Man, and err ... you could ... almost ... used to say ... umm...what’s the word I’m looking for? ... umm ... Frances Piece, or something. (laughter).
CG That’s in the book ... in the booklet. 3
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
Mr T In the booklet, yes.
CG Yes.
Mr T Hmm.
RR So you’d ... you’d been working in the ... in the University of Hong Kong, have you?
Mr T Both of them – the University of Hong Kong first, and then the Chinese University of Hong Kong after that.
RR And you’d been there a good long time?
Mr T We were there for twenty years, totally. Eight years in the one, and twelve years in the other.
RR And you’d come from Australia to do that?
Mr T From Australia to Hong Kong – well, we were actually in Britain when they said, ‘We’d love to have you.’
RR Hmm hmm ... [rustling of paper]... hmm, and [unclear] the [unclear]?
Mr T Something like that, hmm ... and umm ...
RR So there’s all the bits ...
Mr T ... then in ... it was June, you’ll get the precise dates from this, if you’re interested. June ’74, which you’ll notice is the June following that advertisement ...
RR That ... that advertisement ...
Mr T ... and the correspondence. Umm ... June ‘74. We came over here for sixteen days only, stayed at the old Peveril in umm ... opposite the Lemon Squeezer, and umm ... umm ...
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RR Before ... before ...
Mr T We found this place, seeing it umm ... going toward Ballasalla, we saw it in the rear vision mirror of the car. (laughter) So there it was ... ex farm-worker’s cottage. And then we ...
RR Because they ... they did restrict ... farm-worker’s houses, didn’t they?
Mr T That’s right. Yea, we’ve got the ... the data in there, and umm ... the umm ... I’ve got, in fact ... the government gave a hundred pounds, some time before the second world war, for umm ... improvements to be done. And umm ... the ... err ... the condition was that the rent should be so-and-so – or so much, I should say, for a number of years. It’s all in there, if you’d like to see it. And umm ... then umm ... umm ...that it could only be let ... let to a farm worker.
CG So did you have to get change of use – under planning?
Mr T Umm ... I think it lapsed, yes, by that time.
CG Lapsed ... yea.
Mr T Err ...
RR I noticed you ... you, like I, did the bargain and got your life membership of the Manx Museum and National Trust ...
Mr T That’s right.
RR ... for ten guineas (laughter) ... each!
Mr T Yes, that’s right ... umm ...oh! I don’t know what it was. I can only say it was ...
RR Ten guineas – well, you said twenty-one pounds, by the look of it.
Mr T That’s right – a tenner, was it? Twenty-one pounds for the two.
RR Yea, ten guineas each. I did it for ten guineas.
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Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
Mr T Ten guineas, that’s right, that’s right. It’s a ...
RR They even work in Australia, our cards [unclear].
Mr T Umm ... sorry?
RR They even work in Australia.
Mr T Does it?
RR Yes!
CG The membership, yes.
Mr T Well, blow me down! We’ve used it in Britain, and, you know, umm ...
RR Oh yes, it works in Britain.
Mr T And we went ... went to Powys ... Powys Castle on one occasion, and err ... we wanted to go to the [unclear] museum and we were ...
RR Powys – Powys Castle.
Mr T Powys, is it?
RR Powys, yes, that’s right.
Mr T Yes. We were ... embraced, really, by the umm ...
RR Yea, I know, they’re quite funny, when they see them, and some of them say, ‘I’ve never seen those before!’ So now I say, ‘[unclear],’ they look at it suspiciously! (laughter)
Mr T Well, I ... I ...we wrote ahead, you see, and the ... Major someone or other came along and gave us a personal umm ... tour before the ... hoi polloi came in.
RR Oh.
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Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
CG So, in Hong Kong, then, you were thinking about retiring somewhere ...
Mr T That’s right.
CG ... and how did you first hear about the Isle of Man?
Mr T (laughter) Well, if I can put it this way, in my case, at any rate, the Isle of Man has been in the back of my mind, since I was ... probably four years old. Umm ... no Manx connections that I know of, but there were two things; one is, we met two fishermen shooting their nets off a beach into a place called Bamorris [sp ???], into umm ... Portlemouth [sp ???] Bay, and umm ... one was named Quilliam, and the other was named Goodbody, and they were mates from the Royal Navy ...
CG Right.
Mr T ... and umm ... I can remember saying to my grandmother – I was only a little boy, well before I went to school – umm ... you know, something about Mr William ... I knew about the Christian name ...
CG Hmm.
Mr T ... and she said, ‘no, no, dear, Mr Quilliam, he comes from the Isle of Man.’
CG Oh!
Mr T And the other thing is, my grandfather, again, no Manx connections, used to sing to me Ellan Vannin ...
RR Oh!
CG Good heavens!
Mr T ... and, anyway, we wanted to come, we wanted to retire, we’d grown away from Australia, umm ... we wanted to come to the British Isles – among other things, we were interested in the European Union and what was going on there, and err ... so we read up a bit, and err ... we even visited places like Oxford and [unclear], you know, a month or so a couple of months, umm ... got rained on ... 7
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
RR Hmm.
Mr T ... and eventually we saw this advertisement and we said, ‘Well, let’s go over and have a look.’ And we did.
CG Where did you ... where did you see the advertisement?
Mr T It was in ... ah, oh! ... yes, umm ... umm ... there were hawkers in the Isle of Man – in Hong Kong, I’m sorry, and one lot of hawkers were mainly ladies and were umm ... would ... bring vegetable and fish around, and they would call out, and they were mainly, of course, aiming at the err ... well, the amah, as they were called. And umm ... they ... umm ... this particular lady came round, and we bought some vegetables from her, and this piece of paper was round it.
RR This very one?
Mr T That piece in the back.
RR The cuttings?
Mr T That’s right – in the back. So we said – I may add, we knew nothing about a tax haven ... it was absolutely ... it meant nothing to us, because taxes in Hong Kong were fairly low, and ... umm ... so we said, ‘Well, alright, they seem to be welcoming people, why don’t we give it a whirl?’ We had, of course, read up on the Channel Islands, so we’d actually written one letter to the ... an estate agent or something in the Channel Islands and everything turned us off.
CG Really?!
Mr T No health service, them and us ... and we didn’t want to be part of the master race, or something ...
CG Yea.
Mr T ... you know ... not mixing with the local – not good enough (laughter)! Not at all.
CG Yes, I see what you mean. 8
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
Mr T So we umm ... we had no part of that and ... umm ... the Isle of Man has never been that way.
CG So you still found this ... this lady hawker had come by ... err ... a newspaper cutting from the Isle of Man.
Mr T It was ... it was ... it was ...
RR No, it’s ... it’s ... it’s a Hong Kong paper.
Mr T ... it was a Hong Kong paper ...
CG Oh, it’s in a Hong Kong paper, right.
Mr T ... aimed at ex-pats ...
CG So it was part of the government’s ...
Mr T ... and mainly UK ex-pats, it appears, not ... people like us.
CG Oh, I see, yes, yes.
RR It was sort of a pink ... it used to be ... its paper was pink, you know.
Mr T Hong Kong weekend paper, yea.
RR It’s a pink paper. (laughter)
Mr T Well, it is now err ... quite old, isn’t it?
CG So the Isle of Man Bank had placed that advert?
RR Thirty-four years old – coming up for that. (laughter)
Mr T Umm ... yes, obviously acting in collusion, if I may put ... use that term.
CG With the government, yes ... marvellous!
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Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
Mr T I think I’m right because the booklet is put out by the government.
CG Yea.
Mr T And as you say, as you saw when you looked at it, it’s a pretty good booklet ...
CG Yes.
Mr T ... but ... the other thing is, I mean, I’ve left all this, you can read as much of it as you like, if ... whatever you want. It does show, I think, that ... umm ... our friends down at the ... the ... the farm, Harry and Elaine Quirk ...
RR Ah, that’s who Harry and Elaine are!
Mr T ... were splendid people.
RR Yea.
Mr T If I can just show you one little thing here – I’ll mark it for you – the rent on the cottage at that time, that was 1980, was £16 pounds and the purpose was to get someone in here to keep it warm. And err ... we had ... umm ... a couple of umm ... small insurance policies or something based in the Isle of Man, so ... umm ... it just paid the small premiums on those, and umm ... we paid the rates, I might add. And I’ve in here, the amount of rates which were paid, if you’re interested, from memory it was just over £21 a year. (laughter)
RR We had ... we had a cottage on the promenade in 1968, in Castletown, I think the rates were about £20 ...
CG Hmm.
Mr T Yea.
RR ... weren’t a lot more, even about ten years ago.
CG Certainly a lot more nowadays, but umm ...
Mr T They sell ... 10
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
RR Well, the rating ...
Mr T Well, ours are what – £400 or something this ... now ...
CG Yes.
Mr T So you’ve lived here for a long time, have you?
RR Well, err ... my wife’s Manx ...
Mr T Oh yes, yes, yes.
RR ... we’ve lived here full-time ... twenty ... it’ll be twenty-eight years next year ...
Mr T Oh, yes, yes, yes.
RR ... next – end of the year ... and we’ve err ... we’ve had a house here for ... been married forty ... coming up forty-seven years.
Mr T Oh – same as us!
RR So we’ve had a house here for nearly forty years, in Castletown.
Mr T Ah yes ... yes, yes.
RR Where we ... we now live. And then I came to live here, as I say, about twenty- eight years ago – I used to teach, but I came ... I’m also a Chartered Accountant, so I came to teach ...
Mr T Oh yes.
RR ... to err ... to be an accountant with Pannells ...
Mr T Oh yes.
RR ... so I was ... and we did a lot of this sort of ... produced stuff ... stuff and sent it out to people ...
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Mr T Yes.
RR ... I’m amazed that the Isle of Man gave tax advice – looks quite good! (laughter)
Mr T Yes.
RR Often, people send out stuff which isn’t – don’t really understand, but that’s ... that’s ... that’s fine, I think ...
Mr T Yes.
RR ... tell me about ... err ... when you came here in 19 ... so you came here to live in 1974, did you?
Mr T We came here in ’85 ... we ... we ... we bought the cottage in ... no, no, we bought the cottage in ’74, then we went away for twelve years ...
RR Oh, I see.
Mr T ... coming back only for a day or two to deal with ... (laughter)
RR So the £16 was for that.
Mr T ... an absconding tenant and such things as that. (laughter)
RR Which was the rent that someone was giving you, were they?
Mr T Err ... yes, we let the cottage umm ...
RR Just to keep it ... so you came here to live in ... came ... came back to live ...
Mr T We came back permanently in ...
RR From Hong Kong, was that?
Mr T From Hong Kong, in ’85 – 1985, on retirement, as they say.
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RR Yea.
Mr T So we’d owned it, you see, for eleven years before we came back – before we came here permanently. We made a resolution – right, we’re going to retire to the Isle of Man, don’t muck around and spoil it, we’ll go somewhere else for our ...
RR Holidays.
Mr T ... when I leave, or whatever ...
RR Yea.
Mr T ... and err ... we’ll come back and retire in the Isle of Man, on a separate exercise.
RR And, sorry, so being ... being Australian, umm ... you might not have seen as much of Europe as ... those who’ve come from here in the first place, so that wouldn’t be ... that works quite nicely, doesn’t it?
Mr T Oh yes, that’s right.
RR When you come to live here, you can then do this end.
Mr T Well, we done quite a lot in Great Britain, and we’ve been to Italy a good deal before we came here.
RR Had you?
Mr T So, whatever you like, there ...
RR Tell me, tell me something else; when you came me and its 1985, how did you find ... err ... getting to know Manx people and so on?
Mr T Well, we had Harry and Elaine ...
RR Yea, which is a very good start, isn’t it?
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Mr T ... they were a first rate start. We got to know Mrs Quirk senior, who has been dead for a number of years, but err ... she was ... well, she was Harry’s mother and umm ... you can see that she was a lady considerably older than we were, and umm ... she liked to talk about things – Manx things – in a rather critical way, both Harry and his mother ...
RR (laughter) Sounds quite typical!
Mr T ... were ... were ... were not professional ... professional Manx people by any chance ... umm ... by any means. And umm ... particularly, of course, we liked to hear from ... her name was called Isa, that ... you know, the background to what was going on ...
RR Hmm.
Mr T ... and her views of it, ‘cos they were well worth having – she was a sharp lady.
RR Hmm.
Mr T And through her, we got to know people named Taubman – parents to Hazel Hannan – we got to know Hazel, also, through conservation interests, and ...
RR Was she a Taubman – Taubman?
Mr T She was a Taubman, yes.
RR So apparently it’s the same name as Taubman.
Mr T That’s right.
CG Well that’s how you say it, isn’t it? ‘Tub-man.’
RR Is it?
Mr T You say it ‘Tub-man,’ don’t you?
CG Well that’s probably the way you should say it.
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RR Well, Tubby, er ... you know?
Mr T Tubby Taubman, of yes, our elect ...
RR Everybody’s electrician. (laughter)
Mr T A small world, isn’t it?
RR When he comes, when he comes ...
Mr T Small world, (laughter) God knows!
RR Well, he ... he explained it all, that they were ... if you go back, they were spelt ‘Tub’...
Mr T That’s right ... he ... he ... he ...
RR ... and they seemed to acquire an ‘a’ along the line somewhere. (laughter)
Mr T ... we ... we had a ... slight difficulty up in the bathroom, a month ago, and umm ... Phil gave us an ear-full on it.
RR The trouble is it’s getting ... the first job is trying to get him; the second trouble is trying to get a bill out of him. Both of these are works of art!
Mr T You worried about the bill ... when we’re in extremis, Phil comes like a shot.
RR Oh he does, yes ... if there’s a disaster.
Mr T He’s wonderful, and so’s Willy – Willy McCarey [sp ???] ... is ... does that ...
RR Well he’s also got a nephew, hasn’t he? Is that his nephew?
Mr T Sorry?
RR Phil’s got a nephew.
Mr T Err ... that’s right, but I gather the nephew’s not going to continue ... 15
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RR Isn’t he?!
Mr T ... or something ... no, not ... not ...
RR Well he’s working out in Douglas or somewhere.
Mr T Well, yes, perhaps he’s changed his mind again, (laughter) but anyway ... when Phil comes ...
RR Oh I met him about a month ago ...
Mr T Oh, so ...
RR ... busily doing electrics.
Mr T ... and umm ... where were we? Anyway ... umm ... who else? Well, you know, you went into the shops and you just chatted to people, and err ... got to know them, and, of course, we were very fortunate in one other way ... umm ... Hazel knew very well that we were interested in farming matters and umm ... well, in conservation, and Hazel was instrumental in starting an organisation called the Farming and Wildlife Advisory Group – it’s the Isle of Man Farming and Wildlife Advisory Group, which is tied in a little bit to the umm ... the one in ... which is based in Stonely, I think, and in fact exists throughout the British Isles – so at least throughout Great Britain. And err ... Hazel, umm ... was looking for a secretary ... err ... I could tell you why she couldn’t get a local secretary, but ... who she had in mind, but err ... it’s up to you – shall I tell you or would ...?
RR Yes.
Mr T Well, the one she had in mind was Chris Sheard ...
CG Ha, yes!
Mr T ... and this was the ... the ...
RR Oh, was he the one who ... who spent some time?
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Mr T That’s right.
RR At Her Majesty’s pleasure?
Mr T That’s right, and umm ... (laughter) and so she ... she was looking round for someone and she said ... rang up Stella one day and said, ‘Will you be secretary?’ Well, we had time on our hands, then, umm ... we’d more or less settled, you know, we’d found the drill and started putting things together. So Stella said, ‘Yes,’ ... and err ... when we were at the meeting, umm ... a friend ... umm ... or I should say, he is now a friend, but another member at the meeting said, ‘well why don’t we have the treasurer under the same roof – have them together?’ That was Ian Quayle of umm ... umm ... what’s the name – just south of Laxey – God, it’s gone from me?!
CG South Baldrine?
Mr T Baldrine, yes, and ... a dairy farmer. So I became treasurer, and we worked ... we’ve ... ever since been mixed up with FWAG, as it’s called, and you see, that brought us into ...
RR That’s very good.
Mr T ... close touch with a number of farmers ...
RR That’s right, and they are ...
Mr T ... and we now know all the best farmers in the Island (laughter) – the Taggarts, umm ... Paul Fargher in Baldromma – all that lot. Excellent, you know ...
CG Hmm.
Mr T ... couldn’t be better. And, of course, Harry was a farmer and a very good one, I think. Umm ...
RR But it’s a great way to get to know ... the old Manx people ...
Mr T That’s right.
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RR ... get involved in the farming world.
Mr T Oh yes! Well, we’re creatures of the Union, you see ...
RR Yea.
Mr T ... retired members of the Union on the basis of having worked with cocoa once upon a time ... (laughter). Yea ... I’m afraid I’m being garrulous.
CG That’s alright.
RR That’s what you’re there to do.
Mr T Do you think?! (laughter) Anyway, umm ... that was it. I think we – well, we know ... really a very large number of Manx people and we know something about rather more of them. We get ... one of the great pleasures is sitting round this table, with someone like, for example, our painters, three or four of our painters – this place is done every three years or so, and getting the good spray from them, and err ... from Willy and Phil – they more or less talk to one another and we listen in with ears flapping. (laughter)
RR As you do ... yes, my wife loves it!
Mr T You know, we ...
RR ‘Good Manx evening!’ she says! (laughter) But she’s busily sort of stoking the fires, as well.
Mr T And then, of course, the other thing was, Euro Club, the ... which was founded, really, by umm ... Fred Kissack, who was ... you know, the former ...
RR Oh yes!
Mr T ... Chief Secretary, and umm .... umm ... Miles Walker was the first ... umm ... Chairman, wasn’t it, was the name? ... and umm ... then, of course, it was Donald. And err ... so err ... well, we got to know them and a number of other people as a consequence. And err ... that couldn’t have been better. (laughter)
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RR Yes, we see Fred. He married a great ...
Mr T We don’t know any Australians, not an Australian on the Island – how about that?!
RR There are ... there are some, yes, certainly there are.
Mr T There are a few, yes.
RR Margaret Duncan I know very well, who was married to one of our characters, Peter Duncan ...
CG Yes.
Mr T Hmm.
RR ... whereas she’s all go, he’s not all go.
CG It’s normally South Africans, isn’t it?
RR They get over the ...
Mr T They’ve got more reason to get out ... somewhere else ...
CG Yea – to leave, haven’t they?
Mr T And Namibians – white Namibians ...
CG Hmm.
RR And ... and Rhodesians.
Mr T The other thing, if I may say so, err ... I think I’ve mentioned this to Charles, umm ... when we knew we were going to come to live here, as soon as we bought the cottage, umm ... Stella nipped down to the Isle of Man Newspapers, which were then in ... they’re not where they are now at all ... and umm ...
RR Where are they now? 19
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CG Hill Street.
Mr T Hill Street, yea, that’s right. And she umm ... arranged for us to receive the cheapest of their products, (laughter) which was The Isle of Man Examiner – Isle of Man Weekly Times ...
RR That’s right, The Weekly Times.
Mr T ... and we used to get that – well, weekly, and ...
CG Sent to you in Hong Kong, you mean, yes?
Mr T Yea, sent to us in Hong Kong ...
CG Yes.
Mr T ... and it was umm ... umm ... it of course, came in batches, because we had it sent by surface mail, so we behaved as real old colonials. Stella used to unwrap them, lay them out in order of date, and then, after a ... while I was err ... getting ready for bed or whatever, Stella would sit up there and say, ‘Oh, there’s been another chip pan fire in ...’ (laughter) and so on, you see, and umm ...
Mrs T All this had happened six weeks before, of course!
Mr T We ... we got all the ... all the spray, all the information, you see?
RR It happened last week, again, didn’t it? (laughter)
Mr T Well, you know, umm ... all the rumours that were going round, and it was ... I think the newspaper was a bit more factual than it is today, frankly.
CG Yes ... a better standard of journalism.
Mr T Certainly, oh yes, far less ...
RR But you were on it in those days, were you?
CG Hmm? 20
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RR You weren’t on The Times?
CG No, but people like Valerie Cottle was ...
RR Yes.
Mr T Yes, that’s right, yes, she was on it.
CG ... editing The Star, and all that, so you’d got a proper journalist and Alan Bell, err ... not the Treasury Minister, but Alan Bell, Harry Breggazzi, all those sort of people, I mean, they were good journalists.
Mr T Hmm. Was he related to umm ... John, the ...
CG Yes, vaguely, cousin or distant cousin.
Mr T What – J J [unclear] a big family, here, wasn’t it?
CG No, umm – Breggazzi.
RR Oh, John Breggazzi, yea.
CG Harry Breggazzi [unclear].
RR They must all have been related, ‘cos there was only one family.
CG That’s right, yes.
Mr T The other one, of course, one which was still going when we were here, or reading about it here; a group umm ... the ... the ice-cream manufacturers, Felices, I think they’re called Felice in err ... in the Isle of Man.
RR [unclear]
CG Felices, yes.
Mr T Felices ...
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CG Yes, yes.
Mr T And the other thing was ... this is wholly by the way ... when we came here first, there was a magnificent Indian restaurant err ... it was called err ... The New Bengal, and umm ... run by two Bengalese ... Bengalese ... the husband and wife, they had a cook also, who was a Bengali, and they turned out the most magnificent food.
CG Where was that then?
Mr T Umm ...
CG Walpole Avenue?
Mr T No, no, that was the umm ...
CG There was another one there.
Mr T That was The Sepoy, wasn’t it?
CG Ah, (laughter) ... right.
Mr T No, sorry, you’ve got to go right to the other end of the umm ... of the umm ...
RR Promenade.
Mr T ... Promenade, and it’s the road that turns up, just a bit short of err ... the err ...
RR Oh, it’s up by Terry Cringle’s old house.
Mr T That’s right.
CG Summerhill, you mean, Summerhill.
Mr T Hmm ... that’s right, that’s right ... Summerhill, that’s it, hmm.
CG It’s at the bottom of that?
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Mr T That’s right, just as you turn ...
RR I vaguely remember.
CG Next to the [unclear].
Mr T ... and it was absolutely first rate, and they unburdened themselves to us. They ... we used to sit and talk, you see ... and they unburdened themselves and said what a ... hell of a business it is, you know, we try to produce really good food and umm ... err ... these chaps come in err ... somewhat sossled ...
CG Hmm.
Mr T ... and err ... want chips on top of the ...
CG Oh of course, yes.
Mr T ... and err ... when I came back for our tenant, about two years later, the place was closed.
CG Hmm.
Mr T I’d walked along the promenade – my God, that korma that they did – gone!
CG Gone, hmm.
Mr T Hmm ... they were real ...
RR Keeping restaurants going is, I think, it’s not the fault of the restaurateurs – I mean, sometimes it is – it’s the fault of the customers ...
Mr T Of course it is, yes, yes!
RR ... who don’t support them regularly enough.
Mr T Hmm.
CG That’s right ... yes. 23
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RR All they do is complain that there aren’t any good restaurants.
Mr T Yes, yes.
RR You only get to keep them by using them.
Mr T That’s right, that’s right, Ciappelli’s is ...
RR Terribly expensive – it’s always good.
Mr T Hmm – it is expensive, I gather.
RR It is, it’s seriously expensive – I mean, really its London prices.
Mr T Here ... here again, you see, I’m sorry to get onto a hobby-horse, but, umm ... one of the things I’ve been trying to do is, persuade our farmers, instead of shooting their bull calves, to rear them on to veal ...
RR Hmm.
Mr T ... you don’t have to produce veal in the way it used to be done on the Continent ...
RR With the milk stuff.
Mr T ... you know, aborting the poor little [unclear] and all this stuff. Umm ... now they say that no one will eat veal in the Island, and yet I’ve gone out there ...
RR You can’t get it!
Mr T ... I’ve gone out there a ... umm ... umm ... a run-down from Manx Tails on Ciappelli’s restaurant, one of them had roast loin of veal – you know, it would be a ... Vitello al Forno, or something like that, you know.
RR We would buy veal if we could get it.
24
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Mr T Yes, they want your – we would, too, like a shot. After all, when you think of these classical dishes ...
RR Yea, absolutely ...
Mr T Hmm.
RR ... and they don’t have to be this white veal they ... they’re not allowed to do, now.
Mr T The pink veal, it used to be called in Australia.
RR Yea ... but you, I mean ... I remember we got some veal ... there was an old – you remember old Parn – down at the ... at the umm ... Derby Haven Hotel?
Mr T We’ve never really used that one, frankly.
RR Well, it’s no longer a hotel, of course, it’s ...
Mr T No, no ... no, no.
RR There was ... there was a little Austrian called Parn – do you remember him?
CG No.
RR And he was as miserable as they come. And he would stand behind you looking sour. But for some reason he loved my mother-in-law! (laughter)...
Mr T (laughter) Good God!
RR ... who thought he was – it was outrageously expensive. I mean, you’d get a first class three course meal for one pound ten shillings, you know.
Mr T Goodness me – when was that?
RR Oh, this was going ... 70s – 60s ...
Mr T Hmm. 25
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RR ... but she regarded it as totally expensive. Anything more than five shilling a meal she regarded as absolute tops – a very Manx sort of way of going about it. And he would stand behind her and ... and smile; which was a thing he very rarely did. But the one thing he did have ...
Mr T There’s no accounting for taste, is there?!
RR ... always had beautiful veal, always had beautiful veal.
Mr T Where did he get it?
RR Liverpool. And we got some – Princess Margaret came one time, and for some reason, my wife had been speaking to somebody who was in Government House, and they’d got all this veal. And he said, ‘Well I’ve got all this veal and ... you know, we’re only going to use so much, would you like to buy some off us?’ ...
Mr T Hmm.
RR ... so we actually got some that time, but it’s terribly difficult ...
Mr T It is, it is ... but need not be.
RR ... but he always had it, always had it.
Mr T And you see, it’s the old business – where there’s muck there’s brass. Veal, you could say, is muck ...
RR Well ...
Mr T After all, you shoot ... you shoot them, don’t you? ...
RR Well ...
Mr T ... or they ... we do on the Island, they shoot the bull calves.
RR You’d think someone like Radcliffe’s would actually, I mean, they’re going in for all sorts of fancy stuff. You’d think they might actually make a ... a thing 26
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
about it.
Mr T Hmm. Well, of course, they ... now they’ve got umm ... Balladoole, isn’t it? Umm ... what’s his name? Umm ... anyway, it’s organic beef he’s producing.
CG Oh yes, at Balladoole.
Mr T Balladoole, yea.
CG He does organic stuff.
Mr T Umm ... what’s his name ... umm?
CG Quayle is he ... is he Quayle?
Mr T No, no, he’s not a Quayle ... hmm ...
CG I know who you mean, anyway.
Mr T At any rate, you know.
CG Top of Fishers Hill, by ...
Mr T Lives ... lives alone, now ... Mama is dead ...
CG Hmm.
Mr T ... umm ... but excellent stuff. Anyway, do you want to take any of these away?
RR Might just take that.
Mr T Please do.
RR Let me have your telephone number so that I ...
Mr T 88 ...
Mrs T Would you like a cup of tea? 27
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
CG No, I’m alright, thanks.
Mr T We’re the only Throwers in the book, if you ... if you ...
RR You’re the only Throwers there. (laughter)
Mr T 822786
RR 822786
Mr T Yes, I got this entirely for the ... put it out for the rates, but you’ll have all that, anyway ...
RR Well, yea.
Mr T ... it’ll only make all this ...
CG Keep that and look at it and then, if there’s something you want to put in the book ... a scan of the letter ... give it to me and I’ll get them scanned.
RR Yea, okay, yea ... now, there’s one other thing I was going to ask you, which is the counterpart of knowing Manx people, ‘cos one of the ... one of the issues that arises regularly throughout the early part [unclear] is, rather as you were saying in the case of the Channel Islands ...
Mr T Hmm.
RR ... them and us.
Mr T It was horrible, from what we heard.
RR Err ... now, that’s happened here with some people.
Mr T I’m sure it did ... it does everywhere.
RR You never came across this? Did ... you know, that sort of group?
Mr T Well ... let us put it this ... 28
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RR They weren’t so much down this end.
Mr T ... let us ... let us put it this way; we never attempted to mix with the ...
RR Yet sometimes you do bump into them.
Mr T We, you know ... well, yes ...
CG But did the Manx ever regard you as ‘come-overs,’ with suspicion?
Mr T We’ve never ... umm ... there’s only one occasion when I’ve ever heard a sharp voice used, to me, umm ... and that was in the old Nobles Hospital, my mother was in there umm ... recuperating from something or other, and umm ... she died here incidentally, and umm ... it was ... it was in mid-summer, wasn’t much ventilation, and she had a fan – an electric fan. And she saw a lady across the way, and she said, ‘I think that lady’s distressed. Do put ... try to get the fan on her.’ So I moved, and her bloody daughter was there, and she would sit in the way of the fan. And I said to her, ‘Do you mind ... I think your mother would like this fan – do you mind if you would ...?’ And she turned round and snapped at me, ‘You’re in the Isle of Man now!’ And that’s the one and only time I’ve ever had anything like that and I thought, well, if you’re Manx, I don’t want to know you, girly! (laughter) ...
RR I’ve had it ...
Mr T ... never met her again.
RR ... I’ve had it twice; once off Jennifer, Peter John ... tut ... Jennifer Kewley ...
Mr T Oh yes, Draskau Kewley well, it was Kewley Draskau ...
RR Well, she’s not either of those things, really, she is (laughter)...
CG No ... she ...
RR She might be Draskau, but she’s not Kewley.
CG No ... 29
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RR Her mother was Kewley, but she was ... what was it ... Watkin ...
CG Watkin, yes.
RR ... and the mother was the Headmistress of the Buchan School.
Mr T Oh yes.
CG Her mother and her father, Commander Rowley Watkin, was a ...
RR Mate of ...
CG ... Royal Navy and Godfather to Prince Phillip.
Mr T Really?
CG Oh yes, they were.
RR Not err ... to Prince Charles, was it? ...
CG Right, Prince Charles – probably Prince Charles.
RR ... ‘cos he’d be Prince Phillip’s ... he was in the navy with Prince Phillip.
CG With Prince Phillip, that’s right ... yea.
Mr T With Prince Phillip, yea.
CG Anyway, she was rude to you, was she?
RR David Wilson and I ... were told we could get on the next boat (laughter)...
CG Oh, right.
RR ... for we dared to offer an opinion (laughter) ...
[The telephone rings]
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Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
Mr T Yes ... dared to offer an opinion.
RR ... on the ... on Manx politics.
Mr T But you were a taxpayer after all.
RR A taxpayer and the auditor of the government and all sorts of other things!
CG Yes.
RR You know we were well in ... and probably ...
Mr T Yea.
CG ... it’s a very narrow attitude – I don’t have any time for it at all.
Mr T Well, you ... you would see the same sort of thing in Australia.
RR You know, she smiled at me and called me Roger, after a bit (laughter) ...
Mr T Hmm.
RR ... quite amazing! (laughter)
Mrs T Excuse me.
CG There’s an old Australian saying – ‘How do you know that this plane’s got English people on it? Because, when the engines stop, you can still hear the whinging!’ (laughter) That’s what they say.
Mr T Yea, interesting ... I don’t know how long that word has been in ... in the British Isles – whinge.
CG Whinging, hmm.
Mr T Hmm.
RR The British Isle – has been in a long time, as far as I know ... 31
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
CG Yes, I think ...
RR ... all my life, anyway.
Mr T Yes, hmm, hmm.
RR Oh, it’s an old’ish word – it’s not modern slang.
Mr T No, no, well, I heard it first in the army and that was a long time ago. Hmm ... the other ...
CG But ‘whinging poms’ is probably a fairly recent ...
Mr T That’s right, that’s right.
RR Wasn’t it the £10 settlers in the 60s ...
Mr T £10 migrants.
RR ...who were supposed to be the ‘whinging poms?’ ...
Mr T Hmm.
CG Yes, yes
RR ... ‘cos once they got there for £10, they all complained it wasn’t what they thought it was. (laughter)
Mr T Wasn’t what they wanted, yea ... no, mind you, I ... I surmise there are a number of people who come here and don’t think it was what it ...
CG Oh yes.
RR Well, I used to advise a lot of people on ... on just your sort of situation, really – tax things – and they were coming here for perfectly sound tax reasons. And I’d say, ‘Well, do you really want to go into exile, which is what you’re doing.’ I said, ‘You know, that’s fine, but you’ve got to realise that it’s not where you’ve come from.’ 32
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Mr T No, well ... well, quite. That’s umm ... that, of course, is where ... I’ll just put that there, if I may ...
RR That’s a good idea.
Mr T ... a very good point, and umm ... err ... you know, if you ... if you want to be where you’ve come from, you stay there!
CG Yes.
RR And coming from Australia, in many ways, is easier ... or coming ... a lot of people who came here, came from having lived for a long time in the Colonies ...
Mr T Hmm.
RR ... or somewhere, so they’d broken their ... even if they weren’t Australian, even if they were English, they’d broken their ties with England, so that coming here was ...
CG Yes.
RR ... like going to England, I mean, it was going to be a change, anyway.
Mr T Yes, well ...
RR A lot of the ones who came from England for tax reasons, were giving up being in England, and of course, this is not England, so you don’t get English villages, you don’t get pretty English houses, in the same way ...
Mr T No, that’s right.
RR ... and they had just to get their minds round that. And I was saying to them, ‘You’re not going to find what you’re ... what you’re looking for,’...
MR P Hmm.
RR ... if you’re looking for a nice house to retire to. 33
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CG Did you ask for tax advice or did you get financial advice when you came here?
Mr T Well what I did, I mean, we didn’t come here for financial reasons ...
CG No.
Mr T ... as I say, we were naive umm ... we thought 20%, or whatever it was, income tax at the time, well, that’s not too bad, is it? We can put up with that. And umm ... as soon as we came here, umm ... I trotted along to umm ... umm ... the income tax office, and I met a fellow named Wallace, umm ... he didn’t stay much longer with them, he went into private ... private company, I gather. I thought he was excellent, and umm ... he gave me a run-down, and somewhere or other I’ve got the notes of that, and umm ... well, I just did what he said. And that’s the end of it.
CG Hmm.
Mr T We’ve never used an accountant or anything like that.
RR You ... you were very straightforward – not coming out of England. I mean, it’s coming out of Britain that’s the difficult bit ...
Mr T That’s right, it’s ...
RR ... coming from elsewhere, you’ve just gone to the Isle of Man situation, and they’re very helpful at the tax office, and they’d tell you everything you needed ...
Mr T Hmm.
RR ... ‘cos your pension didn’t come from England.
Mr T Yea ... oh, that’s just one point. There was a gang in umm ... Hong Kong, err ... a company – they were perfectly straightforward – which umm ... went about ... or made their money advising people who were going to retire to Britain – go back to Britain – ex-patriots, mainly, British ... UK ex-patriots ... umm ... on what to do – wherever they were going. And umm ... (laughter) ... they umm ... were mainly recommending UK umm ... unit trusts and that kind of thing. And 34
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err ... the first consultation was free, so I went along and had one. And I gave him the whole works, you know ... where we came from ...
RR Hmm, hmm.
Mr T ... no ... no nonsense. And I remember the words he used, ‘You’re in a superb taxation position,’ ...
RR Hmm.
Mr T ... we ... we then ... I’m not quite sure whether we’d bought our cottage, or whether we were just thinking of looking for one, but, ‘Yes, you’re in a superb taxation position,’ (laughter) ...
RR No, he was ... he was right.
Mr T ... so, there we are.
RR So it’s very straightforward.
Mr T Hmm, hmm. Anyway, it’s all very good fun.
RR And you’ve enjoyed it all, anyway – the last twenty-five years, isn’t it?
Mr T Well, yes.
RR Near enough?
Mr T That’s right – when one umm ... err ... has an accident or something, and ... it’s fourteen weeks to get an NHS umm ... physiotherapy, so you go privately and pay £40 for 45 minutes, or something like that (laughter) just for a few minutes we don’t enjoy it so much, but there you are.
CG No, well ...
Mr T The other thing is umm ... of course, I think we’re ... if I can just express an opinion on one thing; I think we’re excessively fortunate in our hospital. You would not expect, or indeed our medical service, but particularly the hospital 35
Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Peter Thrower
I’m thinking of, you wouldn’t expect the range of services from such a small population and such a comparatively small hospital – four hundred beds or so, now. Now, umm ... that, of course, I suppose, must be attributed in part to our forty miles of sea, you know, you’ve got to have reasonable services here. But of course, a hospital consists of a number of umm ... departments, or sections, divisions, and one of them isn’t very good, so umm ... for things like orthopaedics or ... well, for orthopaedics, I would recommend going away.
RR I think that’s a fairly widely held ...
Mr T It is. Well, our friend, Elaine Quirk – Harry, of course, is now dead, but Elaine went away for the same reason, but she went to umm ... BUPA in Liverpool ...
RR Hmmm.
Mr T ... we went to a clinic in Germany ... and umm ...
RR Hmm, hmm ... no, I think the orthopaedics ... has been ...
Mr T It’s a great pity, you know ...
RR ... and I think that will happen. And it’ll be another department another time ...
Mr T Oh yes.
RR ... but I think the ... the quality of the ... my ... from my observation, the quality of the people they are getting in there now, has gone up a bit. They were very good at one time, and then they seemed to be not quite so good ...
Mr T Hmm.
RR ... and now they seem to be ...
Mr T Well, they’ve got an excellent chap who does backs, I gather, in orthopaedics now. But, umm ... of course, in medicine, we’re now moving from the great generalist, you know, umm ....
RR Hmm. 36
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Mr T ... you remember him, doctor in the house, the rather beautiful remark, err ... so- and-so, who was a surgeon, umm ... when he was spoken of publically, he was the last of the great general surgeons, when he was spoken of privately, he was the bloody old butcher! (laughter) ... and that’s ...
RR Well, that’s true!
Mr T That sums up a lot of it, you know?
RR Well, John Leigh, who lives down in Castletown, who was a general surgeon – not bones, but he was a general surgeon ...
Mr T Who was that?
RR John Leigh.
Mr T Oh yes.
RR ... retired ...
Mr T J O Leigh – yes, I know him.
RR ... and replaced by two or three ...
Mr T That’s right.
RR ... one who does urinary, one who does ...
Mr T Yes.
RR ... stomachs ...
Mr T Yes, hmm.
RR ... and one who does everything else, I think!
Mr T There was Batey, also, wasn’t there?
37
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RR Oh, Batey was a general surgeon – he was a good general surgeon.
Mr T Hmm.
RR The two of them were good.
Mr T Two of them. I thought Batey was ... perhaps rather better than ...
RR John Leigh had no bedside manner – he still doesn’t. I mean, I know him quite well, but he (laughter) doesn’t smile.
Mr T He’s a bit of a cold fish, isn’t he?
RR Cold – cold, it’s like ice!
Mr T Hmm ... you know ...
RR Even if you know him well. This was – my wife went to see him to have a breast scan and things ...
Mr T Hmm ... I know, but ... but Dr Bourdillan ...
RR ... as if – ah, Bourdillan was super!
Mr T Excellent ... I ... I ... I was so lucky with him – so lucky!
RR I used to go to him – every six months or so.
Mr T He – you see, I suffer from migraine – or did suffer – that’s why I’ve got this. And umm ... so did Dr Bourdillan, and when he ... we had a chat, and that’s what it was ... we more or less exchanged symptoms (laughter)...
RR I think he had suffered ...
Mr T ... and he ... he ... knows it, ‘cos he had all the insights, of course, and he would say, ‘Now what about peppers?’ (laughter)
RR Oh, he was good! 38
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Mr T He was ... he was excellent, and err ...
RR We see him occasionally, he’s in Castletown.
Mr T He treated me for pneumonia, also, and he was very, very good.
RR Hmm, hmm, no, he was.
Mr T Very nice man, too ... enjoyed him.
RR Anyway, thank you, thank you very much.
Mr T Well, there you ...
END OF INTERVIEW
39