Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Bill Dawson MANX HERITAGE FOUNDATION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT ORAL HISTORY TRANSCRIPT ‘TIME TO REMEMBER’ Interviewee: Mr Bill Dawson Date of birth: Place of birth: Interviewer: Roger Rawcliffe and Sue Lewis Recorded by: Date recorded: 9th November 2006 Topic(s): Ronaldsway Aircraft Company The Isle of Man Finance Board Abolition of Surtax Company formations Development of the Finance Sector Manx Company Law Banking and self-regulation Savings & Investment Bank collapse The Financial Supervision The Usury Act The Treasury Finance Board British and off-shore Insurance Companies Development of the Freeport Abolition of Exchange Controls Government Corporate Services Bill Dawson - Mr D Roger Rawcliffe - RR Sue Lewis - SL 1 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Bill Dawson RR … we talked about getting a bit of – Research Assistant, and then Sue had been doing a – well she had already done a Phd on, sort of ‘Manxness,’ if you like – Manx language. And she’s about to be introducing people, older people, to all the rest of us, and she’s just about to complete another piece of work on … SL Manx satirical poetry. Mr D Very intellectual! (laughter) RR So we find her quite useful for – ‘cos this – this is intended not to be Mark Solly’s type of book, where everything is there, and it’s good old heavy reading and guaranteed to send you to sleep. It may well send you to sleep, but it’s not the aim of it (laughter) so it’s trying to get the whole picture – the good and the bad. I mean, my own belief is your belief, and I think most people’s belief is that – couldn’t have done without it and a lot of good has come out of it. But, but there are things that wrong from time to time, I mean … but you’re very important, because a lot of the – specifically financial stuff was in your – the development of it was during your time. So really what I’m – I came here at the end of 1979. So anything after that, I was around for. You know – have some reasonable ideas about it. But I shall need other people’s opinions because my ideas are not necessarily going to be the right ones. And before then, I was married to Elizabeth, so came over all the time – kept hearing people saying this or that or the other, and kept observing things, but I wasn’t here to see what was going on between 1960 and 1980 … Mr D Hmmm. RR Ummm … the first bit as I see it was that the new visitors came. But the bit that is really interesting is how the financial sector started – developed. Mr D Yea, yea. No, you were just saying, when you mentioned Wendy Kirkpatrick … RR Hmmm. Mr D Because the – because when Ronaldsway came, I think that was a – Ronaldsway Aircraft – I think that was about ’56 … RR Yes. 2 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Bill Dawson Mr D ... and, err, according to Richard, when they placed the order for the timber at Quiggins, it saved them going bankrupt – they were about to go out of business, and the Ronaldsway order kept them going ‘til things picked up. Whether that’s true or not, I don’t know. (laughter) RR I’ve heard, separately from that, that about one third of the revenues of the Isle of Man came from the taxation payment by – as a consequence of the internment camp. Mr D Well, yea, the first, the first – when I – I came in ’69, and I think, in that year, the income tax estimate was about 2.6 million, and a quarter of it was coming from Ronaldsway. And it – well, it came out – they paid – well, I suppose I’d better not quote that (laughter) but they paid ummm … RR I’m not going to quote six hundred … Mr D ... I think about – we got, we go in about, I think 2.8 millions, of that .6 million came from one company. RR Yea. Mr D So they were rather important. (laughter) RR Very important. Mr D Which is why everybody suggested doing away with common purse, and Ronaldsway didn’t like that, it sort of faded into the distance. (laughter) RR Well, we – we – after, I think it was – when did you retire – I forget when you came? Mr D ’91. May ’91. RR When Terry Groves set up that sort of ‘Think Tank’, which was after you’d given up. And we had lots of people – pundits and private secretaries and all – we – one of the things, obviously, we looked at was, was the common purse, and there was nobody that wanted it aborting. Now – except, I’ve heard, Robert Shaw, Robert Shaw … 3 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Bill Dawson Mr D Yea – the tourist … RR Yea. Mr D Well, the theory – the theoretical argument was that the UK’s economy was different – the structure was different to the Isle of Man … RR Hmmm. Mr D ... I mean they are moving closer together now, but – manufacturing industry’s important in the UK, so if you had a system of indirect taxes designed for the UK, it was only by accident it were right for the Isle of Man. RR Hmmm. Mr D But the fallacy in that argument was that the UK tax system was not designed in particular for the economy, but the raise revenue. (laughter) RR Yes! Mr D So, um … RR Somewhat [unclear] the way it developed. Mr D No, no. RR So when you – when you arrived, in terms of financial services, what was going on? Mr D They were purely local. Umm, you know the – but I suppose – well, of course they used – well, the first thing that happened – I mean, the first day I was here, my first meeting was with the Governor – ‘cos he was the boss-man. RR Who was that – Stallard, was it? Mr D Yea … so my first meeting was with him, and … RR He, effectively, still ran – he was the Chief Executive. 4 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Bill Dawson Mr D Yea – he was sort of head of the Civil Service, Chancellor or the Exchequer, and by really ‘wish’ of the politicians, he was really Head of the political side, as well. RR Yes, I … Mr D Except Charlie Kerruish, (laughter) – he had different views. But err … so that my first meeting was with him, and the two things he said, ‘Two things you must do – stop us going bankrupt and prepare the Finance Board to take over the responsibility for the government finances.’ Now, those … well, first of all, I thought he was joking, and the second one I couldn’t understand. Anyway, my next meeting was with … RR It was called the Finance Board by that time, was it? Mr D Called the Finance Board, yea. RR When they did – it was called something else – the income tax commission … I think – anyway, it doesn’t matter – it was the Finance Board then? Mr D Yea. Ummm – then my next meeting was with Jeremy Bolton, who was Chairman of the Finance Board. And amongst other things he said, ‘You must make sure we don’t go bankrupt.’ (laughter) Well, so my – I thought – I said ‘Oh, have you had a problem?’ He said, ‘Well, well, no, not really, but err …’ I was the third Treasurer in about two years. The first government Treasurer had sort of gone before he went mad; (laughter) the next guy came in and only stayed fifteen months, and in between they’d had a sort of void and during that period they had managed to spend the ‘sinking fund’… RR Hmm. Mr D ... which they were building up for repayment of debentures. So they actually ran out of money for the normal revenue expenditure, and were using the ‘sinking fund’ before anybody apparently realised what was happening. So that was the reference from the Governor and JAB about going bankrupt. I mean, they could always borrow money, but they’d virtually run out of the normal revenue money, if you like. 5 Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Bill Dawson RR Talking about Jeremy Bolton, looking – I mean it’ll only be hearsay in your time, to try and find people who were there at the time – whose idea was the abolition of surtax and the … Mr D Well, I think it was – that was before my time, but as I understood it, it was between Jeremy Bolton and Clifford Irving. RR Yea. Mr D But, Clifford Irving was the one that proposed it in Tynwald … RR Yes, he put all the stuff … Mr D ... because Jeremy Bolton felt, if he proposed it, everybody would vote against it (laughter) – well, not everybody, but he felt it would be better coming from Clifford Irving because he was more persuasive and probably more acceptable. RR But JB put it – put the [unclear] through to Tynwald, didn’t he? I’m trying to remember when I read the Tynwald debate, which I’ve got a … Mr D Well, I can’t – I can’t remember that – I must admit, I’ve never looked. RR Clifford Irving always claimed it was his idea. Mr D Well, it may have been, but ummm … RR I’ll look it up. I mean, at the time, I understood it was Jeremy Bolton. Mr D Well, they were both – I – I don’t really know, they were both involved.