REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, November 20, 1979 at 10-30 a.m.

Present: The Governor (Sir John Paul, have one Bill for signature on the Supple­ G.C.M.G., O.B.E., M.C.). In the C ouncil: mentary Agenda No. 2, and if hon. mem­ The Lord Bishop (the Rt. Rev. Vernon bers agree I will ask the Attorney-General Nicholls), the Attorney General (Mr. J. W. to move that this be taken. Corrin), Sir John Bolton, O.B.E., Messrs. G. T. Crellin, R. E. S. Kerruish, G. V. H. The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I Kneale, R. MacDonald, W. A. Moore, J. C. beg to move:— Nivison, C.B.E., A. H. Simcocks, M.B.E., with Mr. T. A. Bawden, Clerk of the Council. That permission be granted under Stand­ In the Keys : The Acting-Speaker (Mr. E. C. ing Order 27(6) for the following business Irving), Messrs. R. J. G. Anderson, W. K. to be considered. Quirk, J. J. Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Dr. E. Bill for signature — Members of Execu­ J. Mann, Messrs. A. A. Callin, R. L. Watter- tive Council (Terms of Office) Bill. son, J. R. Creer, M. R. Walker, N. Q. Cringle, G. A. Quinney, M.B.E., P. A. Craine, The Governor: Hon. members, if it is D. F. K. Delaney, Mrs. B. Q. Hanson, Mr. agreed we will sign these Bills while we T. E. Kermeen, I.S.O., Dr. D. L. Moore, continue with our business. M.A., Ph.D., Messrs. J. J. Christian, G. C. Swales, with Mr. R. B. M. Quayle, Clerk It was agreed. of Tynwald.

APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT The Governor: Hon. members, I have apologies for the absence this morning of The Governor: I call on the Clerk to lay the hon. Mr. Soeaker, the hon. member for papers. Castletown, Mrs. Quayle, the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Percy Radcliffe, and the hon. The Clerk: I lay before the Court:— member for South Douglas, Mr. Ward. I understand that Mr. Lowey is also unable Customs and Excise Acts (Application) to be with us this morning due to having Act 1975 — Customs and Excise Legisla­ had an accident. tion (ApDlication) (No. 2) (Amendment) Order 1979. Customs Duties (ECSC) Anti- Dumping (Application) (No. 6) Order 1979. Spirits Regulations (Application) Order BILLS FOR SIGNATURE 1979. (Customs and Excise Acts (Applica­ The Governor: We have one Bill for sig­ tion) (Amendment No. 2) Order 1979. Cus­ nature on the main Agenda, the Governor's toms and Excise Warehousing Regulations General Functions (Transfer) Bill. We also (Application) (Amendment) Order 1979.

Apologies for Absence.— Bills for Signature.— Papers Laid Before the Court. T170 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

Appointment of Public Auditors — Public Annual Report — Annual Report of the Notice No. 125/79. Isle of Man Airports Board for the year ended 31st March 1979. Pensioners Bonus Payments — Scheme 1979. Local Government Board’s Approval to Cathedral Church Bill — Report of the Petitions — Approval dated 5th October Ecclesiastical Committee of Tynwald. 1979 to the following Petitions — (1) Petition of the Douglas Corporation for Jury Act 1960 — Jurors Order 1979. approval to purchase the dwelling house and premises numbered 17 Nelson Street, Coroners of Inquests Act 1961 — Coro­ Douglas, together with the adjoining ner’s Jury Rules 1979. triangular parcel of land, from Heron and Brearley Limited for the sum of £9,500. (2) Maintenance Orders (Reciprocal En­ Petition of the Peel Town Commissioners forcement) Act 1978 — Rules of the High for approval to the purchase of a Blaw Court of Justice 1979. Knox 1600 Mk IV High Discharge Road Sweeper and for authority to borrow a Misuse of Drugs Act 1976 — Misuse of sum not exceeding £14,500, repayable Drugs (Safe Custody) Regulations 1973 within 5 years, to defray the cost thereof (Application) Order 1979. together with incidental expenses. Approval dated 19th October 1979 to the following Cattle Quality — Cattle Quality (Head- Petition — (3) Petition of the Peel Town age Payment) Scheme 1979. Commissioners for approval to the sale of a certain plot of land, part of the Balla- Poisons Act 1979 — Poisons Rules (Ap­ quane Estate and containing 48 square plication) Order 1979. yards, to John Courtney Hall for the sum of £273.60 plus the incidental costs of the European Economic Community—Applic­ Petitioners. Approval dated 2nd November able European Communities Secondary 1979 to the following Petitions — (4) Legislation — September 1979. Petition of the Port Erin Village Commis­ sioners for authority to borrow a sum not Fishing Vessels (Safety Provisions) (Isle exceeding £6,175, repayable within 20 of Man) Act 1974 — Fishing Vessels years, in connection with improvements to (Safety Provisions) Subsidiary Legislation the Petitioners’ Offices at Station Road, (Application) (Amendment) Rules 1979. Port Erin, including the provision of male and female toilets on the ground floor and a waiting room on the first floor. (5) Peti­ Customs and Excise — Agreement be­ tion of the Port Erin Village Commissioners tween the Governments of the United King­ for authority to borrow a sum not exceed­ dom and the Isle of Man on Customs and ing £4,500, repayable within 20 years, in Excise and associated matters. connection with improvements to the Petitioners’ Refuge Garage, Port Erin, in­ Medicines Act 1976 — Medicines Sub­ cluding the provision of a staff room, sidiary Legislation (Application) Order toilet facilities and washroom. (6) Petition 1979. of the Marashen Crescent Housing Com­ mittee for authority to borrow a sum not Post Office Authority — Isle of Man exceeding £4,200, repayable within 20 Post Office Authority (Inland Post) years, in connection with the updating and (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 1979. renewal of the Call Bell System at

Papers Laid before the Court. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T171

Marashen Crescent Elderly Persons’ by Tynwald on 19th June 1979. Paragraph Housing Complex, Port Erin. 2.8 of that Report reads as follows: "Doubts have been expressed as to whether Manx law or the Convention is paramount, par­ ticularly since the provisions of the Con­ vention are not embodied in Manx law. There is no doubt in our minds that judg­ CRIMES OF VIOLENCE — SENTENCES ments of the European Court of Human OF JUDICIAL CORPORAL PUNISHMENT Rights are final and binding on both the — QUESTION BY MR. CALLIN. Executive and the Court in the Island.” That statement was made following advice The Governor: Item No. 4, the Question obtained by the Committee from Mr. Paper. Question No. 1. I call upon the hon. Maurice Bathurst, Q.C., and is in line with member for Middle, Mr. Callin. a public statement -made by His Honour the First Deemster last year.

Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, I beg to Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, may I ask:— (1) How many males under the age ask a supplementary question? Is it not a of 21 have been found guilty of crimes of fact that in recent times there have been a violence to the person during the past two number of occasions upon which young years? (2) In how many instances could males under the age of 21 years have a sentence of judicial corporal punishment been brought before the courts after having have been imposed? (3) Since judicial been involved in crimes occasioning corporal punishment Is still the law of the assault and involving actual bodily harm, Isle of Man, why has it not been imposed and that these young males have been in suitable cases during the past two years? charged not with assault occasioning actual bodily harm, but rather with the minor The Governor: I will ask the learned offence of provoking behaviour? Is it not Attorney-General to answer this question. a fact that this course of conduct has, at the very least, the effect of making The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, official statistics on crime at least some­ the answer to part (1) of the question is what questionable? that in 1977, 14 males under the age of 21, and in 1978, 13 males under the age Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, I would like of 21, were convicted of crimes of violence to ask the Attorney-General two supple­ to the person. The answer to part (2) of mentary questions. Firstly, he gave the the question is that in all such cases a figures 1977 and 1978 as 14 and 13 for sentence of judicial corporal punishment young persons found guilty of crimes of was possible under Manx law. In reply to violence to the person. Would he be good part (3) of the question, judicial corporal enough to give the trend for 1979 to date? punishment has not been imposed during My second supplementary question is that the past two years because of a judgment the First Deemster made a public state­ on the subject of judicial corporal ment in which he said that the Isle of Man punishment in the European Court elected to join the Convention, meaning of Human Rights in April 1978. I the Convention for the Protection of Human would draw the attention of the Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. By hon. member to the Final Report of the doing so th e ‘Isle of Man became entitled Select Committee appointed to consider to and bound by the international obliga­ the Petition of Margaret Jane Irving and tions which it created. Would the Attorney- another dated 12th June 1979 and approved General please state when and by whom

Crimes of Violence— Sentences of Judicial Corporal Punishment— Question by Mr. Callin. T172 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 was this decision taken, who signed the the use of judicial corporal punishment Agreement, and was it done with the be retained, it remains to us to recom­ authority of Tynwald? mend to Tynwald, in the light of Mr. Bathurst’s Opinion, what options are avail­ able to give effect to this policy. Accord­ The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, ingly, there appear to be only two options I cannot really comment on the question available to Tynwald, namely, a reservation put forward by the hon. member of the from the whole Convention, (not just the Council, Mr. Simcocks. As far as I am right of individual Petition,) or termination concerned, if the facts justify a charge of of the Island’s adherence to the Conven­ actual bodily harm, then that charge is tion, associated with the enactment of a taken. But I cannot comment on the statis­ Bill of Rights. We consider that a reserva­ tics, all of which, of course, appear in the tion in the terms of paragraph 41 . . . Chief Constable's Report which is usually should be Tynwald’s first objective. . . . issued in January or February each year, However, we must be entirely realistic, and and is done by calendar year.That, in fact, recognise that such a reservation may not is why I gave the figures for 1977 and 1978. be acceptable. In that event, therefore, and But in answer to the first part of the hon. with considerable reluctance, we feel that member for Middle’s supplementary ques­ Tynwald must be prepared to withdraw tion on the trend for 1979, I did make it from the Convention as provided for in my business to find out what the position Article 65(4) of the Convention. However, was for 1979, and I am happy to say that as a pre-requisite of such a withdrawal, a a sim ilar trend is shown for 1979 as has Bill of Rights as counselled by Mr. been shown for several years in the Isle Bathurst, in which would be enshrined all of Man in regard to crimes of violence. The the essential principles of the Convention, actual figures for 1979 — and I am dealing must be enacted.” In furtherance of that here, of course, with males under the age resolution, Government Office were in of 21, which was the nature of the question touch with the Home Office with regard to — the actual number of males who have the possibility of a reservation under the been convicted of crimes of violence in Convention. A reply has just been received 1979, up to today, that is, remembering this weekend on that point which has not that the year is the calendar year and there yet been studied, and also on the question are six weeks to go, is 11. In answer to the of a Bill of Rights. A Bill of Rights is in the second part of the question, these matters course of drafting and it is hoped that it now raised by the hon. member are matters will be brought before the Branches early which are at present before the Constitu­ in the New Year. tional Issues Committee of Tynwald, as to when the Convention was signed and who signed it on behalf of the Island. I would Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, may I just refresh the hon. member’s memory refresh the learned Attorney-General’s about the Select Committee’s Report, as memory just as he has sought to refresh to what they decided to do, and this Re­ the memory of the hon. member for Middle, port came before Tynwald in July of this Mr. Callin. Could I ask the learned year and was approved unanimously by Attorney whether or not he recalls an event Tynwald — unanimously, I think, except in Douglas where a group of young men the hon. member of the Council, Mr. under the age of 21 attacked the crewmen Nivison, asked to be registered as voting of horse trams to such an extent that against the proposals. But the Select Com­ several of the victims of the assault, in mittee’s Report says: "In accepting the fact, had to attend Noble’s Hospital in premise that Tynwald must have the ulti­ order to have their injuries attended to mate responsibility to determine whether and that some of them were away from

Crimes of Violence—Sentences of Judicial Corporal Punishment— Question by Mr. Callin. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T173

work for a period? And does he not recall that the decision of the European Court of that when these young men were brought Human Rights is binding on the courts in be*ore the courts of justice they were the Isle of Man. That was a Tynwald accused of the offence of provoking be­ decision, not the court’s decision, and the haviour when, quite clearly, the evidence courts are bound by that decision of Tyn­ available to those who frame charges, the wald. I did go on to explain then that evidence clearly pointed to the fact that Tynwald’s method of getting round that these men had been involved in an situation is to enact a Bill of Rights for assault occasioning actual bodily harm? the Island with a view at that stage, after Having thus reminded the learned Attorney, the Bill of Rights is enacted, to withdrawing could I not repeat my question, whether or from the Convention. Then the Convention not he is apprehensive that this sort of would not be binding on the Island at all, behaviour at the very least makes statistics neither on Tynwald nor the courts in the concerning crimes of violence highly Island. That is the method which Tynwald suspect? has decided to adopt.

The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, a further do not agree that the statistics are highly supplementary? Could I again, please, ask suspect. They come out, as I have said, in the Attorney-General who signed the Con­ the Chief Constable’s Report every year in vention in the first place, and on whose January or February. It Is a public docu­ authority was it done? ment and I had not heard any criticism of It until Mr. Simcocks spoke this morning. The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I do not accept the premise. I submit that as I understand the position — and we if the circumstances do justify a more are going back now to approximately 1953 serious charge then the more serious — the Convention was signed on behalf charge is taken. of the Isle of Man by the United Kingdom. It was not possible for the Isle of Man to Mr. Delaney: One more supplementary, be a member state or a contracting party Your Excellency? The learned Attorney to the Convention on its own, but the pointed out that the courts are really carry­ United Kingdom referred the Convention to ing out what Mr. Maurice Bathurst, Q.C., the Isle of Man in approximately 1953, and recommended was the law. But is it not the Isle of Man decided that they would true that birching in the Isle of Man once wish to be associated with the Convention. again is still a punishment that can be put This was intimated to the Home Office down to offenders of crime and violence and the United Kingdom asked the against the person? Is the learned Attor­ Secretary-General of the Council of ney aware that there are rumours that un­ official lobbying is taking place by mem­ Europe to make the necessary declaration bers of the Bench and their colleagues to making the Island an associate member restrict the use of the birch? under the auspices of the United Kingdom who was the major party. At that time, in The Attorney-General: I am not aware of 1953, the matter did not come before Tyn­ that, Your Excellency. All I can say is wald. I think this was the purpose of the that it may have been on Mr. Bathurst's hon. member's question. But I am to say advice that Tynwald accepted the recom­ that since 1953 the whole question of mendation that I read out this morning but, whether the Island should be a member in fact, it was Tynwald, including the hon. of the European Convention of Human member who asked the question, who Rights did come before Tynwald, it came accepted the statement which was con­ before Tynwald on at least two subsequent tained in the Select Committee's Report, occasions, and our membership, or our

Crimes of Violence— Sentences of Judicial Corporal Punishment—Question by Mr. Callin. T174 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

associate membership, was ratified by upon the hon. member for West Douglas, Tynwald, In fact, on subsequent occasions. Mr. Kermeen.

Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, may I Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I beg to ask a supplementary question? The hon. ask the Chairman of Executive Council: and learned Attorney has mentioned that a At this appropriate time in Millennium Year recent paper or document has been re­ coincidental with International Archive ceived from the Home Office vis-à-vis the Week, will the Council expedite the intro­ introduction of a Bill of Rights In the Isle duction of a Public Records Bill along the of Man Legislature. Would you, if neces­ lines indicated by you in reply to a ques­ sary, as a classified document, circulate tion tabled by the hon. Member for it to hon. members so that they may be Rushen, Mr. Cringle, on 12th December, aware of any objections that Her Majesty’s 1978? Government may have to the introduction in this independent Legislature of a Bill Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, whilst of Rights? preparatory administrative work in connec­ The Attorney-General: There may be a tion with the Bill has been completed, the slight misunderstanding, Your Excellency. hon. member will appreciate that the legis­ The letter which was received was not on lative draftsman has been pre-occupled the question of the Bill of Rights, it was on with Customs and Excise legislation and the question of the possible modification of other very important matters including, of the European Convention to the Isle of Man. course, as the learned Attorney-General I think I mentioned earlier that in June or has said, such important matters as the July this year, Tynwald decided that the Bill of Rights. The Public Records Bill has, first step to take was to ask for the Euro­ therefore, had to be accorded a lower pean Convention extension to the Isle of priority than might otherwise have been Man to be modified — modified to such the case. However, I can assure the hon. an extent that that part of the Convention member that the matter has not been over­ relating to "degrading punishment” would looked, it has merely been deferred. not be extended to us. This was the first thing that Tynwald said they wanted to be done, and if that was successful it might not have been necessary then to go on SWIMMING POOL IN WEST OF with the question of a Bill of Rights. So ISLAND — QUESTION BY the letter which has been received and MR. MACDONALD. which I am not making public at the moment because I feel the letter really The Governor: Question No. 3. I call should go straight to the Constitutional upon the hon. member of Council, Mr. Issues Committee because they are the MacDonald. people who really, along with Tynwald, called for this, this letter deals with the Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I beg question of a modification to the Conven­ to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man tion, and does not deal with the question Local Government Board:— (1) Would the of a Bill of Rights. Chairman inform the Court of the present situation of the proposal to provide the west of the Island with a covered, heated PUBLIC RECORDS BILL — swimming pool on the site of and incor­ INTRODUCTION OF— QUESTION porating the existing Peel Town Commis­ BY MR. KERMEEN. sioners’ swimming pool? (2) Have all the The Governor: Question No. 2. I call local authorities in the area agreed to

Public Records Bill— Introduction of— Question by Mr. Kermeen.— Swimming Pool in West of Island—Question by Mr. MacDonald. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T175

support the scheme thus completing the currently being fostered by non-rela- all-island Indoor all year swimming facili­ tives under private financial arrange­ ties? ments? (2) What are the arrange­ ments for supervising these children? (3) Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, In reply Before being granted permission to have to part (1) of the hon. member of Council's their children fostered privately, are the question, 'I would advise that to date one parents required to give reasons for en­ joint meeting of representatives of the tering into a fostering arrangement? (4) local authorities who might possibly par­ What steps are taken to publicise the ticipate in a combination scheme to roof legal requirements connected with private over and heat the Peel swimming pool has fostering by non-relatives? been held in Peel. A further meeting was arranged for 22nd October last, also in Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, a total Peel, but was adjourned until such time as of six children — three males and three the triennial local authority elections had females — under the upper limit of school been held. Arrangements are in hand to age are currently being fostered under hold this meeting at an early date. With private financial arrangements in accord­ respect to part (2) of the question, as yet ance with the notice requirements of the the discussions have been without com­ Child Life Protection Act 1959. A further mitment on the part of the local authori­ nine children— seven males and two females ties involved, namely, the Peel Town Com­ — are being daily-minded by persons regis­ missioners, Michael Village Commissioners, tered under the Nurseries and Child- and the German, Marown, Michael and Pat­ Minders Regulation Act 1974. Under the rick Parish Commissioners. However, subse­ 1959 Act, when a social worker approaches quent to the first meeting to which I have the community nursing staff acting on be­ referred, the German Parish Commissioners half of an unmarried mother regarding the disagreed with the proposal and Michael fostering of a child for the necessary pre- Parish Commissioners proposed the con­ adoptive period of six weeks, the health struction of a new pool in another situa­ visitors endeavour to find a suitable foster tion in Peel. I am aware, privately, that home. This involves the submission of a most of the other authorities are in agree­ series of background reports on the home ment with such a project. conditions and health of the prospective foster parents. When a suitable family has Mr. MacDonald: I thank the hon. mem­ been found, the social worker is advised. ber for his answer. The latter assists the foster parent to com­ plete an official Child Life Protection Notice which requires to be given to the Isle of Man Local Government Board by FOSTER CHILDREN — SUPERVISION persons receiving children under the upper ETC. — QUESTION BY MRS. QUAYLE. limit of compulsory school age for regard. In practical terms this and other proforma The Governor: Question No. 4. Is any­ used to screen the prospective foster one prepared to put the question in the parents is channelled through the Director name of the hon. member for Castletown, of Community Nursing to the Medical Mrs. Quayle? Officer of Health. Thereafter, the health visitor concerned provides regular surveil­ Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I beg to lance, including the submission of a ask the question in the name of quarterly report which includes dates of the hon. member for Castletown, Mrs. visits paid. In the case of an unmarried Quayle: (1) How many children are working mother who keeps her child but

Foster Children— Supervision etc.— Question by Mrs. Quayle. T176 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 requires to have it fostered on a Monday of thing would happen. By way of a post­ to Friday basis, an approach is made to script to these questions, I should explain one or other of the health visitors direct. that there are 13 health visitors and two of The finding and screening of a suitable the Board’s own inspectors appointed by foster-mother is carried out as before. In the Board as child life protection visitors this case, however, the health visitor for purposes of the Child Life Protection assists the foster parents with the com­ Act. tEvery care is taken, under the overall pletion of the Child Life Protection Notice. direction of the Medical Officer of Health, Similarly, other married persons requiring in supervising all fostering arrangements, fostering or daily minding approach a both in terms of the persons involved and health visitor direct and the procedure the environmental conditions of the foster regarding screening is as before. Where homes. Again I would reiterate that we a local authority from the United Kingdom would prefer that if hon. members have places a child under the care of one or questions or queries in relation to this or other of the Island’s social workers, the other matters, rather than seeking to go to latter has a duty to supervise the child. the press to seek publicity that they should This automatically results in liaison with come and get the facts from the Board, the community nursing staff in order that which are readily available and are very the necessary surveillance can be carried extensively documented. out. There might conceivably arise instances Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, a supple­ of children being clandestinely fostered mentary? In the absence of the person who but if this came to the knowledge of the asked the question, is it not true that the Board or its officers the matter would be hon. member might be putting this question investigated forthwith. I would say that if down so that it is on record, the answer, so any hon. member, including the hon. mem­ that everyone in this Court will have the ber who has asked the question, knows answer rather than us go individually to of any such case, I think It is their duty to that particular Board? come to the Board and make such a situa­ tion known. Unfortunately, the hon. mem­ Mr. Cringle: A further supplementary, ber for Castletown has neither consulted Your Excellency? I accept entirely what the our Board nor the community nursing ser­ member for East Douglas has just said, but vices department to find out what the facts would the hon. Chairman just say yet again of the situation are. Moving on to part (3) to us, or spell out to us yet again exactly of the hon. member’s question, parents what steps are taken under part (4) of the usually volunteer their reasons for entering hon. member’s question where she asks into fostering arrangements. This is not, what steps are taken to publicise the legal however, obligatory. Public notice has been requirements? What steps are taken to given in the past by the Board reminding make them known far and wide on the the public of the legal requirements in Island? respect of private fostering with non­ relatives under the 1959 Act. I think every­ The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, a body does not fully appreciate that they supplementary? Would not the Chairman of have to have the authority of the two foster the Local Government Board send out a parents if they are not relatives. In our message of gratitude to those who foster view, there are very few, If any, In the children on this Island, which is, in itself, Island where this is not the case because an act of very real personal dedication? we are all aware that so many people, if Would he not give an assurance to the they see a strange child next door, they residents of this Island that his Board is enquire, and the message gets about, so satisfied with the quality of foster-parents? it is clear that it is unlikely that this sort Would he not confirm also that we are

Foster Children— Supervision etc.— Question by Mrs. Quayle. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T177 extremely fortunate in the Child Care relation to the question raised, I thank Dr. Officers that we have, and indeed of our Mann and confirm that what he has sug­ two social workers, Miss Mary Ling and gested is factual. In relation to what the Miss Joyce Kane? Furthermore, would fie Lord Bishop raised, we are aware exactly not confirm that there is a tremendous that what the hon member was referring to demand for adoption, both from parents on was this particular case where they were the Island and parents on the adjacent non-British. We are aware of the case. We Island, and that at this moment there are have documented each of the children fos­ parents accepted for adoption here who tered with that particular home where the have to wait a very long time, and those charge was three times what was normally of us who are involved in this specific work charged for children on adoption. I would would like to be associated with the Chair­ point out to hon. members of this Court man in saying that we are indeed fortunate. that many of these people who are foster­ Finally, am I right in thinking that the hon. ing adoptive children in the Isle of Man member for Castletown, Mrs. Quayle, per­ are doing it for something like £5 a week, haps was expressing a concern for those so it is no commercial operation as far as children who are neither Manx nor of they are concerned. They are often people British birth, who could privately be fos­ who have a great devotion to the children tered, and where indeed such an arrange­ concerned and I can assure the hon. mem­ ment may not be known to the Local Gov­ bers of this Court that the supervision is ernment Board or to the officers of the adequate, it is excellent, and would con­ Board? firm, as the Lord Bishop has pointed out, that there is a very high standard. We Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, a supple­ were not only aware of these children, but mentary? Would the Chairman of the Local when the number in that particular foster Government Board agree that there is, in home raised to the number of four, the addition to the safeguards built into the officers in charge indicated they were not system of fostering, an on-going and con­ happy that that number be fostered in any tinuous visiting by health visitors who are one home, and the number was subse­ at present attached to individual medical quently reduced. So we are very aware practices, and that there is continuous visit­ and have full documentation of the ques­ ing and reporting to local practitioners as tions raised by the hon. member for Castle­ well as to the Medical Officer of Health town. In respect of the questions raised and the chief nursing officer? by the hon. member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney, it possibly is useful to have had Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, may 1 ask the question aired from the point of view a supplementary question? Would it be of information, and in relation to the ques­ correct to say, now that adoption has been tions by the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. raised in regard to this question, that no Cringle, we have from time to time adver­ children who are born in the Island can be adopted by persons in the Island? They tised. I will admit that until probably today’s are sent to the United Kingdom to adop­ issue it was some time before we had ad­ tive parents? Similarly, parents in the vertised, but it is done. Since Miss Callow Island wishing to adopt children have to was appointed, it was interesting to note adopt children from the United Kingdom that there are actually 70 people alto­ or from an adjacent Island, Jersey or gether working under her supervision. Guernsey? When she was appointed, and I was one of those who interviewed her 10 years ago Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, what the and she has done an excellent job, I think hon. member who has just resumed her there were either 10 or 12 persons then. So seat has said is absolutely correct. In this Island is not falling in any way behind

Foster Children—Supervision etc.— Question by Mrs. Quayle. T178 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 in respect to child care in this department. several years now, but the roads and foot­ With the Lord Bishop, I would pay tribute paths, although giving the appearance of to the ladies, Miss Ling, and her colleague, also having been completed, were never Miss Kane, who work outside the surveil­ constructed to a standard whereby the lance and who are very largely supported highway authority would agree to adopt the by voluntary effort. They do a great deal for roads for maintenance purposes. In addi­ child care in this Island. When one looks tion to this initial shortfall in standard, at the amount and has seen some of the there has been a deterioration during the difficulties that arise in relation to child last two or three years because of the lack care, we are most grateful in the Isle of of maintenance and, consequently, the Man because we are not encumbered with work which would now be required to bring children's homes for which actually we have the roads up to adoption standard would got to pay such a large amount as they do cost several thousand pounds. This un­ in the social security departments in the fortunate position was reached in the fol­ United Kingdom and the Channel Islands lowing way. In the first place, as I have where it is interesting to note there are said, the developer of this estate, Laggan over 100 children under the care of Govern­ Limited, failed to complete the roads, and ment departments. We have two excellent that company, although still in existence, children’s homes in the Isle of Man and I is apparently without funds; secondly, the pay the greatest tribute to them. I am individuals who purchased dwellings on thankful, in a sense, for the opportunity to the estate did not make any arrangements pay tribute to those who do so much for to ensure the satisfactory completion of the child care in the Isle of Man. roads; and lastly, it was not at that time possible for the Planning Committee to re­ quire the provision of security in this re­ CRONK-Y-BERRY— MAKING-UP OF spect. Thus, the roads at present require ROADS — QUESTION BY MR. QUINNEY. fairly extensive remedial wc-rks, the cost of which is rising all the time, and for which The Governor: Question No. 5. I call there is no immediate source of finance. upon the hon. member for North Douglas, Such a situation should not now occur Mr. Quinney. with new estates since the Planning Com­ mittee can, under current legislation, re­ Mr. Quinney: Your Excellency, I beg to quire the provision of a suitable bond as ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Local security for such works but, of course, the Government Board:— (1) Would you ex­ onus of responsibility for ensuring that plain what difficulties -have arisen in con­ these matters are safeguarded must, and nection with the making-up of the roads in does, nevertheless, still lie with the indi­ Cronk-y-Berry, Douglas, which matter -is vidual purchasing a plot or dwelling from a causing serious concern to the residents of developer. I would say that some responsi­ this estate? (2) What measures can the bility does rest on the legal profession act­ Planning Committee of your Board take to ing on behalf of such purchasers to make expedite completion of these works and sure that they are purchasing a property can you give any assurances thereon? that has been covered in this way. Dealing Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, In reply now with the second part of the question, to the hon. member for North Douglas, I I cannot, at this stage, offer any assurance can best explain the difficulties to which he that the Planning Committee will be able to refers by first describing the present posi­ expedite the completion and adoption of tion, and then outlining the way in which these roadworks. However, I can state that that position was reached. Building works the Committee is currently discussing this on the estate -have been complete for problem with representatives of the com­

Cronk-y-Berry— Making-up of Roads— Question by Mr. Quinney. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T179

pany which developed the estate and the years, do not have open fireplaces. These highway authority. It is hoped that, as a dwellings have warm air heating provided result, a solution will be reached, but to by electricity or gas. I would add, Your say more at this stage would only tend to Excellency, that the Board resolved over prejudice the outcome of what are rather two years ago not to build any more indi­ difficult negotiations. I trust that, in the cir­ vidual houses without open fireplaces and cumstances, the hon. member will accept this policy extends to the Board’s conside­ what is, I concede, a slightly less than ration of local authority Petitions for borrow­ complete answer to his question. ing powers in respect of housing schemes. We are in no -way any longer approving Mr. Quinney: Your Excellency, I thank houses which have not got an open fire­ the hon. Chairman for his reply. place, and this has been the policy of -my Board since it took over in the last two to three years.

HOUSES BUILT UNDER AUSPICES OF Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, may I ask LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD DURING a supplementary question? I am well aware LAST 10 YEARS WITHOUT FIREPLACES that it has now ceased, that houses are — QUESTION BY MRS. HANSON. built without open fireplaces, but in view of the fact of the financial hardship which The Governor: Question No. 6. I call is now being felt by the elderly and the upon the hon. member for West Douglas, families with young children who have to Mrs. Hanson. keep up a fairly high temperature in heat­ ing their homes, are there any plans for Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I beg to the Board to install fireplaces and flues in ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Local your premises which are directly under Government Board:— (1) How many your control? houses during the last 10 years have been built under the auspices of your Board with­ Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Your Ex­ out open fireplaces? (2) Could the hon. cellency? In view of the statement just member give some indication as to the made by the Chairman of the Local Gov­ number of local authority houses which ernment Board, and the supplementary have been built in Douglas without similar question asked by my colleague, the hon. facilities during the same period? member for West Douglas, would the Chairman of the Local Government Board Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, in deal­ convey to the Douglas Corporation that we ing with this question, I have assumed that would not like to see young couples and the expression open fireplaces means fire­ elderly people taken off the housing list places which burn solid fuel in individual because they refuse to take a house in dwellings other than in elderly persons’ Anagh Coar which has not got an open homes which are centrally heated. The fireplace, due to the cost incurred to them Local Government Board owns 1,108 dwell­ for the heating of the same? ings, 154 of which — that is 13.89 per cent of the total — do not have open fireplaces. Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: A supplementary, All these particular dwellings were built Your Excellency, if I may? Would the hon. during the last 10 years and are provided Chairman arrange for his Board to give with alternative means of heating, such as urgent consideration to equipping all Local gas and electricity. The Douglas Corpora­ Government Beard houses with open fire­ tion own 1,999 houses, 200 of which — that places in order that a scheme may be pro­ is 10.5 per cent, of the total — all at Anagh duced for implementation at a very early Coar Estate and built within the last 10 date?

Houses Built under Auspices of Local Government Board during last 10 years without fireplaces— Question by Mrs. Hanson. T180 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, in reply available. We have tried and are trying to to the last hon. member for Michael who do something about it but it is not always has just resumed his seat, I would point a very easy one structurally to do. In out to him, and I thought he was aware, answer to the hon. member for East Dou­ that we had actually taken remedial action glas, I really do not think we might advise. in several areas. In fact, there are those The Douglas Corporation really do their who 'have indicated that they are not actu­ own thing in housing and I do not think ally now wishing to have a fireplace put in. we are in a position to tell them. We are I would remind hon. members that it really a supervisory authority but when it comes to takes two hundredweight of coal today, and the actual letting of houses they really do I think it is £3.70 or thereabouts, which is their own thing and I do not think we a considerable amount. I do not know, if have a great deal of jurisdiction over them. you are on gas central heating, whether I have every sympathy with the hon. mem­ there is, in fact, a great deal of difference. ber’s point in that somebody ought not to I am aware, as the hon. member for Michael be taken off the housing list because he knows, of the problems in relation to con­ refuses to go to a particular house, but densation where persons had a form of they have a difficult problem. They are now central heating and it was too expensive, landed with these houses and they have got so they ceased to use that and they put in to let them so I appreciate they have a a form of gas heating which created con­ problem and I understand the hon. mem­ densation in the types of houses they are ber’s wish in order that these people may in, and we are terribly aware of it. This is not lose their place on the housing list by not just a problem confined to the Island. just a refusal. We are aware of the prob­ But I would assure the hon. member for lems in relation to these houses and we, Michael that this is something that we have from our Board’s point of view, are doing under surveillance. We have done several all we can to resolve as satisfactorily as trial runs in relation to houses where there possible the conditions in which these were particular problems, and these prob­ people find themselves. lems vary from house to house even within a given housing estate. We have learned a Mrs. Hanson: A further supplementary, lot by the mistakes that happened in the Your Excellency? Is the hon. member previous years. We are aware that the chim­ aware, and it has been brought to my at­ ney did not just let the smoke go away tention on many occasions, that elderly but it did provide a means of ventilation in people are having to stay in bed until lunch­ a house, and these are things that I think time because they cannot afford to put the architects did not always take into consi­ electric central heating on and, in fact, deration. I would give the hon. member for I have been in some homes where they Michael the assurance that we are very are using old fashioned paraffin heaters sympathetic to this, but again we have had because the elderly cannot afford to run very strong indications from several people the full electric heating that has been in­ that they are not prepared, actually, to stalled. have a fireplace put in their particular house, and we do not want to go against Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Two further supple- their wishes. In certain circumstances it is mentaries, if I may, Your Excellency? If, as extremely difficult in >a terraced house which the hon. Chairman says, it requires two has not been constructed with a chimney bags of coal each week to heat a very small to do just that. I think the same thing type of Local Government Board house, is answering the hon. member for West would his Board urgently consider improv­ Douglas, Mrs. Hanson. We are looking at ing the insulation of these houses? Sec­ this problem where a solution is readily ondly, Your Excellency, could I ask the hon.

Houses Built under Auspices of Local Government Board during last 10 years without fireplaces— Question by Mrs. Hanson. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T181

Chairman that even if some tenants do not Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, a desire open fireplaces, would he consider further supplementary? I know for a fact equipping those who do? that the hon. Chairman’s Board has been thinking about this problem of houses with­ Mr. Anderson: I think, Your Excellency, out open fireplaces for at least three to the hon. ¡member will be aware that our four years and they make all sorts of ex­ Board has a scheme which is almost ready cuses, but there are such things as pre­ to come forward to this hon. Court for fabricated flues which can be used and approval in relation to the insulation of v/ould he agree that his Board is just sitting local authority houses. We are encouraging looking rather complacently at a very great this and we are hoping that we can en­ and real problem? courage it also in the private sector. Again I point out that there is a structural diffi­ A member: Hear hear. culty in this respect and where we find that there is a problem which cannot easily Mr. Anderson: I do not agree with that be overcome, we are looking at ways of at all, Your Excellency. (Laughter.) doing it. We have done certain experiments and we are working on along that line. I personally would like to see what he is seeking achieved, but I do not want to SPORTS AND RECREATION CENTRE stand up and give assurances this morning IN RAMSEY — FINANCIAL that I may not be in a position to fulfil ASSISTANCE — ONCHAN YOUTH AND I would not consider that would be the thing COMMUNITY CENTRE — QUESTION to do. As far as the hon. member for BY MR. CALLIN. West Douglas is concerned, I am too well aware of this and in respect it goes back The Governor: Question No. 7. I call some time to where we had in our own upon the hon. member for Middle, Mr. area a lady who was doing exactly what the Callin. hon. member was saying in a coal fire situation and the odd thing about it, Your Mr. Callm: Your Excellency, I beg to ask Excellency, is that there are some of those the Chairman of the Isle of Man Local Gov­ people who, when eventually they may ernment Board:— (1) Will you give details have passed on, they had not many rela­ of any financial assistance made to Ram­ tives here, we had someone to help them, sey Town Commissioners towards the cost but, you know, they are so thrifty, that they of conversion of the former Plaza Cinema had saved a lot of logs that had been given into a sports and recreation centre? (2) to them and they were still there because Will your Board be recommending to this they thought the weather might even get hon. Court that financial assistance be worse and they also had quite a lot of afforded to Onchan Village Commissioners pound notes saved in the drawer in case of towards the proposed Onchan youth and some emergency that they did not know community centre in which it is intended to was going to turn up This is the character provide similar facilities, and, if so, what of some of these people. They are really will be the amount of such assistance? thrifty, they are really frightened that things might get worse and are frightened to Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, in reply spend what they have got. If sometimes to part (1) of the hon. member's question, they could be persuaded to use what they I would explain that the conversion of the have at the time instead of storing the former Plaza Cinema into a sports and re­ logs that they had been given in case the creation centre, in effect, involved two sepa­ snow got worse, it might be better for rate schemes of development, namely — them. (a) the conversion of the interior of the

Sports and Recreation Centre in Ramsey— Financial Assistance—Onchan Youth and Community Centre— Question by Mr. Callin. T182 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 premises, and (b) the refurbishing of the costs involved, estimated at £125,000, plus exterior structure and fabric of the build­ access road and car park, will require to ing. The only Government assistance in­ be met by borrowings, but are endeavour­ volved was in relation to the interior works. ing to limit the annual charges to the equi­ Application for such financial assistance valent of a two pence rate approximating was made by the Ramsey Town Commis­ to a capital expenditure of some £80,000. sioners in March 1978, when the Board was An enquiry was made recently by the Com­ informed that the necessary interior works missioners as to whether a Government had formed the subject of a tender in the grant towards this development could be sum of £37,200, and that it was proposed made available and the Board has advised that, with the consent of the Chancery the Commissioners that it is felt that some Court, the larger part of this cost would be at least of the purposes of the community met from the Charles Kerruish Bequest centre may qualify for consideration by the Fund. The assets of that Trust were esti­ Millennium Appeal Trust. The Board has mated to total £26,374 as at the 31st March indicated further that it would lend its sup­ 1978, leaving a balance of approximately port to any application made to that Trust. £11,000, representing the amount of grant aid sought. In view of the likely benefits Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, a supple­ to both the community and tourists, the mentary? The purposes of the Onchan Board supported the Petitioners’ applica­ youth and community centre to provide tion and, with the concurrence of the Fin­ sports and recreational facilities are, I ance Board, provision in the said sum of understand, very similar to those provided £11,000 was 'made in the Board’s Revenue by the Plaza sports and recreation centre Estimates for 1979/80. I would add that the ‘in Ramsey. Would the hon. Chairman agree Commissioners notified the Board in March that the cost to the Onchan Commis­ this year that the costs had risen to £45,436, sioners in providing a completely new inclusive of fees, resulting in a shortfall of building will possibly be considerably in approximately £6,500, and sought an addi­ excess of the cost which was involved with tional grant towards these extra expenses. the Plaza sports and recreation centre at This application was rejected by the Fin­ Ramsey? If so, would he be good enough, ance Board and the original grant limit despite what he said this morning, to re­ of £11,000 re-affirmed. With regard to part consider the application of the Onchan (2) of the question, I would stress that, at Commissioners? the outset, the Onchan Village Commis­ sioners indicated their proposal that the costs of the provision of a youth and com­ Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, in reply munity centre in Onchan be met in part by to the hon. member for Middle, I would indi­ means of fund raising linked with their cate that in the event of the Commissioners district’s Millennium celebrations and that, not being very successful in their applica­ in addition, assistance be sought from tion to the other source, our Board would sources such as the Tynwald Millennium again look at the position and see if any­ Committee, Silver Jubilee Fund and various thing could be done to assist them. We other organisations and individuals. The appreciate, Your Excellency, and I pay Commissioners indicated also that they tribute to Onchan in the facilities it does were prepared to meet any capital deficit, provide for its own community in this area. with the approval of Tynwald, from borro­ All I could promise would be that we would wings. The position now is that although again look at the situation. considerable progress hcs been made in the raising of funds, the Commissioners Mr. Callin: I would like to thank the hon. have accepted that the bulk of the capital Chairman for his reply.

Sports and Recreation Centre in Ramsey— Financial Assistance— Onchan Youth and Community Centre— Question by Mr. Callin. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T183

SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS — Mr. Craine: May I ask a supplementary, PAYMENT TO PERSON DECLINING Your Excellency? Under the Control of OFFER OF EMPLOYMENT — QUESTION Employment Act, if a person wishes to BY MR. CRAINE. employ somebody and he requires a work permit, the remuneration of that position The Governor: Question No. 8. I call upon has to be stated and the Board can then the hon. member for South Douglas, Mr. make a decision, if they think the wage is Craine. too low, not to grant that permit. Does the Mr. Craine: Your Excellency, ¡I beg to ask same apply to a local person advertising the Chairman of the Isle of Man Board of a position for a local person to take up? Social Security:— What is the policy of your Do they have to state what the wages are? Board with reference to the payment of Mr. Cringle: Well, Your Excellency, I do benefits to a person who, having been re­ not think there is anything that could ferred to an employer, declines to take force an employer to advertise the rate of up the position offered because the remune­ wages at all, but it is customary, particul­ ration is too low? arly with the Control of Employment Act, Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, in answer which is a separate argument to what I to the question, I will just say that the thought the question was about, when it Social Security Act provides that if a per­ was relevant to the Social Security Act. son has, without good cause, refused or Under the Control of Employment Act, it failed to apply for, or refused to accept a is specifically written into the 1975 Act that situation in suitable employment when the Committee shall take recognition of offered to him, he shall be disqualified the wages which are to be offered and the from receiving unemployment benefit for a Committee normally bases that on what is period not exceeding six weeks. That is the recognised union level, agreed rate, written into the Act. However, the Act also or whatever when they consider the work provides that employment shall not be permit application. deemed to be suitable employment if it is Mr. Craine: A further supplementary, employment in the claimant’s usual occupa­ Your Excellency? Would the Chairman of tion but at a lower rate of pay or on con­ the Board of Social Security not agree ditions less favourable than those which that some of the wages offered, especially he might reasonably have expected to to women employees, is scandalously low obtain having regard to those which he in the Island? habitually obtained in his usual occupation. Therefore, after an offer of employment Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I think my has been refused, it is necessary to con­ Committee have certainly said over a sider whether the employment is suitable period of time now that we have, in cer­ in general terms. This is the question, in tain industries, in certain service industries fact, to be decided in the light of all the in particular, been trying to get the wage circumstances, including the physical and rate offered and, in fact, paid, on the Isle mental capabilities of the claimant, the of Man in certain circumstances, raised. nature and the acceptability of the work, Mr. Craine: I would like to thank the hon. the earnings and the length of time that Chairman for his reply. the claimant has been away from his usual work. In every case the question of pay INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS LEGISLATION and earnings must be a relevant factor — DELAY — QUESTION BY which has to be considered by the in­ MR. QUINNEY. surance officer before he arrives at a decision as to whether or not the employ­ The Governor: Question No. 9, the hon. ment is suitable under the Act! member for North Douglas, Mr. Quinney.

Social Security Benefits — Payment to Person Declining offer of Employment — Question by Mr. Craine.— Industrial Relations Legislation— Delay— Question by Mr. Quinney. T184 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

Mr. Quinney: Your Excellency, I beg to Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, the Board ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Board of Agriculture have under consideration the of Social Security:— In 1977 the Board of whole subject of the ownership and Social Security considered the question of occupancy of agricultural land and at the the introduction of industrial relations legis­ same time are reviewing the present pro­ lation and it was agreed that a Bill on visions of the Agricultural Holdings Act. In "Contracts of Employment" should be pro­ this particular matter we are in close con­ gressed. On 31st March 1978 the Board sultation with the Manx National Farmers’ convened a conference with both sides of Union. At the present time I am unable to industry to discuss the various aspects of give my hon. friend any assurance as to industrial relations, and following this, the the introduction of legislation on the Board agreed to submit a memorandum specific subject he refers to, but I can to the Attorney-General for the drafting of assure him that the matter will receive the a Bill on “Contracts of Employment”. In consideration of the Board. view of the delay in the introduction of this Bill to the Branches, will you indicate — Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, just one (a) what is the reason for the continuing supplementary. I wonder if my Chairman delay; and (b) what progress is being agrees that part of the reason for the made in this matter? decrease in farmholdings and for the frag­ mentation of farms is caused by the lack Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, the hon. of legislation to control the demolition of member will be aware that I have already farm buildings? This is very often followed actually told him that the drafting of a by permission, which seems to be readily Contracts of Emoloyment Bill is currently granted, for luxury buildings and, in fact, in the Attornev-General’s department and, luxury buildings can be built in areas of I understand from the Attorney-General, it five acres or more in that particular farm, is now in draft form and, therefore, my possibly. Would you agree, Mr. Chairman, Board will very shortly be considering the in the circumstances, that some move drafted form ready for introduction into should be made to implement a conference the House of Keys. between your Board and the Local Gov­ ernment Board in order that this particular point may be rectified? FARM HOLDINGS — INTRODUCTION OF LEGISLATION TO PROHIBIT FRAGMENTATION — QUESTION BY Mr. Anderson: May I ask a further sup- MR. ANDERSON. Dlementary, Your Excellency? Is the hon. Chairman aware, in fact, that this thing is The Governor: Question No. 10, the hon. happening on a probably larger scale at member for Glenfaba, Mr. Anderson. the moment than it has been for some time and is he aware, contrary to what my Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to hon. colleague has said, that in the last ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Board three years very little permission has been of Agriculture and Fisheries:— In view of given to luxury of any sort in these or the increasing tendency to fragment farm other circumstances and is he aware, in holdings on the Island for financial gain, fact, that when the Planning Committee resulting in a reduction in the viability of are faced with a situation, that it is already such holdings as agricultural units, would fait accompli that a farm is already In your Board be willing to consider recom­ three, or in the case of one in Marown, I mending the introduction of enabling legis­ think, four different units, where somebody lation so that all sales of farm land require is putting pressure to get a house on to the prior approval of your Board? farm 40 or 50 acres of land? Is he aware

Farm Holdings— Introduction of Legislation to Prohibit Fragmentation— Question by Mr. Anderson. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T185 that again this week in the north of Island unit, then we will give assistance towards there was another small farm sold of 30 the carrying out of that exercise in the acres where they were looking for plan­ interests of making a more viable agricul­ ning permission to put a second house on tural industry. The whole thing is extremely that which subsequently, incidentally, was complex and I think it is illustrated by the not granted, but this is a very real problem fact that, as I said earlier on, we are in at the moment and when it comes to plan­ consultation with the Manx National ning stage it is really often too late to Farmers’ Union on the question of the do anything about it. ownership and occupancy of land, but there is no clearly defined policy emanat­ Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, a further ing from the Union as yet. Very recently supplementary? Although I agree that there there has been a very voluminous report are difficulties, would the Chairman of the published in the United Kingdom, the Board of Agriculture not agree that it is Northfield Commission, on this very sub­ a fact that sometimes in today’s economic ject, but on perusal of it so far, we are circumstances it is necessary to fragment unable to get very much information out farms to make other holdings viable units? of that that would assist us in the solution to the problem which we know exists. I Dr. Mann: A further supplementary, Your think in summing up, sir, we are against Excellency? Is the Board not under an the fragmentation of farms where it would obligation, under the common agricultural lead to the creation of uneconomic units. policy which is accepted by the Is'and, to There may be odd circumstances, as re­ stop the fragmentation of farm holdings? ferred to by the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Cringle, where that might be justified Mr. MacDonald: Could I ask a quick in the enlargement of one or two adjoining supplementary, Your Excellency? Is it not units. It is a matter for which there can be a fact that the Board itself have all along no clearly defined line laid down in said they do not want fragmentation, they every case, but by and large I can say that want amalgamation, and here we are per­ we would be against, very firmly against, mitting fragmentation when the Board’s the fragmentation of farm units which would policy is no fragmentation, but amalgama­ lead to the creation of a lot of uneconomic tion into more viable units? units. Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, I think several of the subjects that have been Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Your touched on are rea'ly planning matters and Excellency? In his reply, the hon. member hardly relate to the Board of Agricu'ture. of Council said he is waiting for the As I understand it, as far as the demolition Farmers’ Union to decide a policy. Who is of bui'dings is concerned, not even the running the Island, us or the Farmers’ permission of the Local Government Board Union? If you see a need to introduce is required to demolish a bui'ding, but legislation, surely you are duty bound to do once you put one brick on top of another so and not wait for another section of an then you have to get their permission. I association involved in the industry to do think my hon. colleague, the hon. member so. It is our job to do that, not a section for Peel, is quite correct in saying that the who have a financial interest in it, but for Board have a scheme in which assistance us to do it for the benefit of the Island. can be given towards the combination of different units in order to make them more Mr. Kerruishr: Your Excellency, I would viable.. This is the object of the exercise, state quite clearly, without any reservation, but if a small unit which is no longer it is the duty of the Board of Agriculture to economic can be incorporated in a larger formulate policy, but in formulating policies,

Farm Holdings— Introduction of Legislation to Prohibit Fragmentation— Question by Mr. Anderson. T186 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

it does not matter whether it relates to applications have been approved and taken agriculture or anything else, surely it up, in respect of which the approved makes common sense to consult those who assistance amounts to £4,881,468.75. I are concerned with this partcular problem should add here, Your Excellency, that if as far as earning their living is concerned. the current rate of successful applications That has always been the policy of the averaging 10 per week continues, and Board of Agriculture, and I assure you it there is no reason to be'ieve that it will will continue to be so. As I said, the not, Finance Board expects to have to seek Northfield Commission Report, an extreme­ a supplementary vote before the end of ly voluminous report, has only been very the year, a sure indication of the continuing recently issued and I am quite satisfied, in success of Government’s policy in assist­ view of the fact that it is about an inch ing people to own their own homes and on thick, the Manx National Farmers’ Union terms which comoare most favourably with have certainly not had the opportunity of those in the United Kingdom. With refer­ analysing very clearly all the mu'titudinous ence to part (2), Finance Board keeps comments and I would acceot that there the scheme under constant review and it is has to be a time when the Board has to possible, indeed probab'e, that the Board make up its mind on these particu'ar will soon consider making an Order to issues, but before so doing it is right and increase all or some of the loan and grant proper that we shou'd consult a'l con­ limits set out in the schemes in the light of cerned and that is just what we are doing. inflation. Having said that, I am sure that hon. members wi'l aooreciate that the Board has to be ever mindful of the need to ba'ance the interests of the prospective HOUSE PURCHASE SCHEME — home buyers with those of the taxpayer AMOUNT ADVANCED ETC. — and other sectors of the community. I can QUESTION BY MR. J. J. RADCLIFFE. assure hon. members, therefore, that Fin­ ance Board is constantly reviewing all The Governor: Question No. 11, I ca'I asDects of this scheme, taking into account upon the hon. member for Michael, Mr. aM relevant factors including the ability of J. J. Radcliffe. Government to continue financing the scheme on the scale now called for and Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I will, when it considers the time to be beg to ask the Vice-Chairman of the Fin­ aopropriate, introduce measures to vary ance Board:— (1) Since the inception of the assistance avai'able. In conclusion I the House Purchase Scheme, how many should like to say that in my experience, loans have been made and what is the ever since the commencement of this total amount advanced to date? (2) Will scheme and, indeed, its predecessor, the your Board reconsider the position of the Housing Advances Scheme, there have person, for instance, a skilled tradesman, inevitably been borderline cases in which earning in the region of £3,500 per annum, we always tried to be reasonable, both on an income marginally too high to qua'ify application and on appeal. him for a grant and interest at a preferen­ tial rate, but too small to enable him to borrow more than £10,000, a sum which is Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: I thank the hon. Vice- no longer sufficient to purchase a dwelling Chairman for his reply, sir. house? Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, the House Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, could I Purchase Scheme was approved by Tyn­ ask a supplementary? Would the hon. Vice- wald on 12th December, 1978. In the first Chairman of the Finance Board undertake, 11 months up to 13th November 1979, 486 and I appreciate he may not have the

House Purchase Scheme — Amount Advanced Et cetera — Question by Mr J. J. Radcliffe. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T187 answer readily available and, therefore, submit tenders. The policy is always to undertake to give me a written reply, as accept the best local tender unless it is to how many of those applicants in the 11 considerably higher than the best other months which he has given us the figures tender. Unfortunately, there is very often a for this morning, do in fact satisfy a 10 marked difference in favour of the United year residential qua'ification on the Island? Kingdom supplier, which can scarcely be Ignored. This system is now resorted to Mr. Crellin: I shall certainly get the less than formerly as a considerable stock figures for the hon. member. has been built up which only requires topping up from time to time. It has a'so been found that many items used regularly are available from Her Majesty’s Stationery STATIONERY PURCHASES — Office at prices very much cheaper than COMPETITIVE TENDERS — those of any commercial stationer. Their QUESTION BY DR. MANN. terms of trading preclude me from giving examples. Goods so purchased include The Governor: Question No. 12, I call lever arch files, shorthand and other note­ upon the hon. member for Garff, Dr. Mann. books, index and record cards, printed envelopes and pens and pencils. Many Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I beg to ask items, of course, are not obtainable from the Chairman of the Printing Committee of the Stationery Office. Bank paper and plain Tynwald:—What steps does the Printing envelopes, for instance, are usually sup­ Committee take to ensure that bulk station­ plied by a local firm which offers advan­ ery purchases are the result of competitive tageous Government rates and keeps a tenders? large stock on the Island, which means that goods can usually be delivered on the Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, in reply to day of order. The firm further guarantees the question raised by the hon. member three months’ notice of any price increase. for Garff, Dr. Mann, on 19th February 1975 Tynwald approved the recommendation of Dr Mann: A supplementary, Your Excel­ the Printing Committee of Tynwald that a lency? Am I to gather from the answer to central purchasing agency, under the con­ that question then that, in fact, there never trol of the Committee, be established for has been an open competitive tender, that the purchase of standardised office requi­ the tenders are invited or selected tender­ sites and on behalf of a'l Boards and ing is the policy? Secondly, is it so that departments, full co-operation from Boards in spite of bulk purchasing for most Gov­ and departments has enabled the Commit­ ernment Boards, In fact, there is not bulk tee to achieve considerable savings as purchasing for school stationery of indivi­ items can be purchased in bu'k and issued dual schools in the Board of Education but on a regular basis. This was the purpose, that individual schools are themselves of course, of that particu'ar resolution. ordering their own stationery? Every effort is made to divide small, one- off orders fairly between local firms. There Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, as the is, however, a natural tendency to give operative word in the hon. member’s ques­ some preference to the dealer who can ful­ tion is bulk, I was wondering whether the fil the order most expeditiously. This means hon. Chairman of the Printing Committee that the dealer who carries the largest would consider how economies could be stock is probably given rather more orders made in the publication and distribution of than his competitors. Whenever it Is wished the vast amount of paper and, to this end, to place an order for a bu'k purchase, Manx I wonder would he consult with Your and United Kingdom firms are invited to Excellency and the learned Clerk to see

Stationery Purchases — Competitive Tenders — Question by Dr. Mann. T188 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

how you could diminish the supply of that I will do it if you feel that it would be paper, appreciating, of course, that every more appreciated coming from me, but I member must have due knowledge of what think that you have suffiicient standing with is coming before Tynwa'd. If you look at the Clerk of Tynwald to have had that item 3 of the Agenda you will see, by reason done. What we were dealing with, Your of its bulk, it has been found to be im­ Excellency, was the question on the Print­ practical to furnish each member with the ing Committee's remit. We do invite ten­ Medicines Subsidiary Legislation (Applica­ ders, as I said, but we do not deal with tion) Order and it is available for perusal. specialist printing which is the subject, Could we not extend that practice, in con­ mostly, of the Board of Education. Inci­ sultation with Your Excellency and the dentally, I said in the reply to the original learned Clerk, so that we are not de'uged question that we get considerable co-ope­ every morning with the amount of material ration from the Boards but, of course, a lot that falls on our mat? of the Boards still go their own merry way and we have no control to dictate to them Mr. Delaney: One supplementary, Your as to what their requirements shou'd be. Excellency? It is to do with the hon. mem­ I would wholeheartedly agree with the hon. bers of this Court. Would the hon. member member for West Douglas, that there is a take back to the Printing Committee the considerable waste of printing material common sense to install in the Members' within Government. I myself, as Chairman Room in the premises next door to this of the Electricity Board, and I am sure my hon. Court, copies of the voters and bur­ Vice-Chairman will tell you, this is a matter gesses lists for their constituencies so that that I felt within control of myself as the they can peruse the change in their con­ Chairman of a Board and I have instruc­ stituencies and not have to chase around ted my own department to cut down on looking for constituents who might have printing to the extent of laying on the table changed residence? It wou'd be of certain of the ordinary material which is benefit to all members of the Court to have usually circulated to every member and a copy of the constituency registers in the never read, such as the whole series of Members’ Room. accounts and things like that and I have Mr. Moore: In the first place, I do not said, place them on the table a quarter of think it is the duty of the Printing Commit­ an hour before a meeting so that members tee. I certainly will do it but I do not think can peruse them if they so wish, because it is the duty of the Committee to deal with I do feel that a lot of the papers we get these small matters of normal administra­ are hardly ever read. In this way, I think tion. Any member calling in at the office Boards themselves have a part to play. of the Clerk of Tynwald could request a They should be doing this and not getting simple matter of this sort to be handled instructions from the Committee as to how straight away. Ihey should run their own Boards. This is a very difficult position. This is a minor Mr. Delaney: On a point of clarification, Committee of Tynwald and we can only Your Excellency. A member has to pay the recommend. I do accept the fact, of course full charge of £7.50 for a copy of the bur­ that the savings are there and should be gesses list. made. I accept the fact from the hon. Mr. Moore: I said that any member ap­ member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney, proaching the Clerk of Tynwald with a that this is an excellent idea. I am only simple request of this sort for this type of saying that, as the Chairman of the Print­ document to be placed in the Members’ ing Committee, if you wish me to do it, Room would meet, I am sure, with the ap­ so be it. proval of that person so appointed. I said Mr. Delaney: Yes, please.

Stationery Purchases — Competitive Tenders — Question by Dr. Mann. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T189

ISLE OF MAN AGRICULTURAL Question:— The hon. Mr. Speaker to ask MARKETING SOCIETY AND ITS the Chairman of the Isle of Man Highway ASSOCIATIONS — MEMBERS OF and Transport Board:— (1) Is your Board TYNWALD TO BE FURNISHED WITH satisfied that the provision of bridle paths COPIES OF ACCOUNTS — QUESTION is adequate to meet the needs of the grow­ BY THE HON. MR. SPEAKER. ing horse-riding population of the Island? The Governor Question 13 is for written (2) What liaison exists between your Board answer, hon. members. Question:— The and the various equestrian societies over hon. Mr. Speaker to ask His Excellency the the adequacy and upkeep of bridle paths? Lieutenant Governor:— Under the provi­ (3) Has your Board any plans to dedicate sions of section 27 of the Agricultural further footpaths as bridleways? Marketing Act 1934, will Your Excellency Answer:— I would inform the hon. Mr. require the Board of Agriculture and Speaker that there are no bridle paths in Fisheries to supply to members of Tynwa'd existence within the Island by reason that copies of the accounts of the Isle of Man present highway law contains no provision Agricultural Marketing Society and its for the creation of such ways. In view of Associations as at 31st October 1979? the answer to part (1) of the question, Answer:— I have referred this question parts (2) and (3) thereof, are, of course, to the Chairman of the Board of Agricul­ no longer applicable. ture with the request that he should supply the information sought. Since the financial The Governor: That finishes the Question year of the Society runs to the 31st Paper, hon. members. December in each year, it may not be practicable exactly to meet the hon. Mr. Speaker’s request. ROOF REPAIRS AND ELECTRICAL Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, would RE-WIRING — DECLARATORY you permit me to comment on question 13? RESOLUTION APPROVED. The Governor: If you so wish and the Court agrees. The Governor: Item number 5. I call upon the Chairman of the Local Government Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, the Mar­ Board. keting Society is not a branch of Govern­ ment, but a producers’ organisation. Their Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to accounts are prepared to cover each move:— calendar year and I do not think it would be reasonable to prepare accounts for part That Tynwald, recognising the import­ of a financial year. Copies of the audited ance oi maintaining in habitable and safe accounts for the year ended 31st December condition our existing housing stock, is of 1978 were sent to all producers and to the the opinion that consideration should be Board of Agriculture in May of this year given to extending the improvement aid and, at the request of the Board, the Society available under the Housing ImDrovement will send copies of same to each hon. Act 1975 to bring within its provisions (a) member of Tynwald. roof repairs of a substantial nature; and (b) electrical rewiring. BRIDLE PATHS — ADEQUATE TO MEET GROWING NEEDS — QUESTION BY Your Excellency, this declaratory resolu­ THE HON. MR. SPEAKER. tion has been placed on the Agenda to The Governor: The next question is for establish the amount of support received written answer, hon. members. from the hon. Court, in order that the

Isle of Man Agricultural Marketing Society and its Associations — Members of Tynwald to be Furnished with copies of Accounts — Question by the Hon. Mr. Speaker. — Bridle Paths — Adequate to meet growing needs — Question by the Hon. Mr. Speaker. — Roof Repairs and Electrical Re-wiring — Declaratory Resolution Approved. T190 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

Local Government Board may consider in life of many dwellings, the dereliction of further consultation with the Finance Board which would eventually necessitate the the possibility of introducing amendments building of new dwellings, either in the in financial assistance available under the private or public sectors, and at a much Housing Improvement Act 1975. My Board higher cost to the community. The inten­ is of the view that the preservation in tion would be to offer financial assistance habitable condition of our existing housing only for major roof works arising by reason stock should be an important part of the of age and not for minor repairs occa­ Government’s housing policy. It is now sioned by lack of ordinary repair. The assis­ recognised by housing authorities that the tance could also be limited to loans only actions of earlier jurisdictions in the United and restricted to those persons in the com­ Kingdom, in demolishing large groups of munity who are least able to finance these older housing in the name of slum clear­ improvements from their own resources. ance, was often not sound policy as a good Hon. members will see that electrical re­ number of these dwellings could have had wiring has been included in this resolution many years of useful life if modernised, as a separate item. The reason for includ­ both structurally and in their environmental ing this work is on grounds of safety. The settings. This has led in the United King­ Board is aware that many homes on the dom to the introduction of housing action Island have electrical systems which are and housing improvement areas which dangerous, both by reason of age and be­ allow groups of sub-standard dwellings, of cause they do not come up to current generally sound condition, to be brought minimum safety standards. It is suggested up-to-date, permitting the community to be that assistance under the Act should be left undisturbed. Clearly, in terms of cost, limited to such cases and, again, could amenity and land utilisation, it is more be further limited to loans and available to economical and often socially more accep­ those persons in the community who are table to preserve our existing housing stock least able to finance these works. The Hous­ rather than extending outwards with new ing Improvement Act 1975 allows the Board housing estates into va'uable agricultural to extend the facility for financial assistance land. The roof of a house is, of course, a to include “such other works as may from fundamental part of that dwelling and the time to time be prescribed by Regulations". first protection it has against the weather. These Regulations, if agreed, would, of Roof repairs and major overhauls are very course, have to receive the approval of the expensive, often costing thousands of Finance Board and Tynwald. I commend pounds, which may be outside the scope of the support of this hon. Court to these many householders. Unless financial assist­ worthwhile changes. I wou'd ask hon. mem­ ance can be made available there wi'l be a bers to give the Board support in seeking tendency, as at present, for any remedial to do this on behalf of those less fortunate works carried out to be [limited by financial people in our community. I beg to move. rather than structural considerations. This would lead, over the years, to a progres­ Mr. Moore: I beg to second and reserve sive deterioration of our older dwellings, my remarks, Your Excellency. most of which are soundly built and have potentially many years of useful life. In Mr. MacDonald: Could I ask the hon. fact, there are, in addition to the obvious Chairman, could he give us any idea what social reasons, both financial and environ­ they are thinking of? What is it, 40 per mental advantages in extending the lifetime cent, or £40 a house, or what are they of this type of property. By providing the thinking of? financial incentive towards the cost of roof works, it should be possible to extend the Mr. Anderson: A loan only.

Roof Repairs and Electrical Re-wiring — Declaratory Resolution Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T191

Mr. MacDonald: A loan only. Now, whilst house going to have a re-wiring project, I can see the principle of this, it is mag­ the one cannot go without the other, so this nificent, it would be very nice for every­ is going to be a very, very large project in body to be able to get Government assis­ expenditure. Goodness knows, on this tance to do the roofs of buildings, but I Agenda we are going to face some expendi­ am only thinking of my own city, well, ture today and tomorrow, I hope today. So shortly a city, that I live in, and I would then we come to the owner-occupied say — (interruption) — that virtua'ly the houses. When you come to the owner-occu­ whole of old Peel wants re-roofing. pied houses you are back to the old lady (Laughter and interruptions.) It does, let with the one-bar electric fire syndrome and, us be honest about it, there is no doubt in fact, there are auite a few owner-occu­ about it, the whole of the old part of Peel, pied premises in the Is'e of Man where most of these houses were built well over assistance along the line might be a very 100 years ago and were built of soft slate, good thing to think about, but you have a the roofs, and they are in a very, very large number of privately owned tenanted bad state and what I would like to know is accommodation. Now, as I came into Dou­ a rough idea of what the Board thinks it glas this morning I passed a row of three is going to cost. I know it is a loan but or four terraced houses where the roof has then it will be either part interest free, the been taken off by the landlord and where rest will be interest free, and the ultimate, the houses will be re-wired as part and of course, all comes down to hard cash parcel of his refurbishing of these houses and money, and I would like to have some and he is doing that for the benefit of his more facts from the Board as to what they tenants and for the benefit of his property, are thinking of and where they are going. and he will gain in reward in the rentals of his property in all probabi'ity some Mr Crellin: Your Excellency, I feel that measure of recompense for the expenditure right at the start of any debate which takes he has incurred. We also have a large place on this, which on the face of it is a number of tenanted properties in the Isle fairly innocous declaratory resolution, I of Man owned by landlords who take very must say that I, personally, and I am quite big rents out of these houses and do nothing sure that my hon. colleague also will at all about refurbishing them, and so you oppose this scheme for some of the rea­ are being asked to consider the situation sons that have been briefly outlined by too where they could come into this, either the hon. and gallant member for Council, by one way or another. In the first case Wing Commander MacDonald. It is a ques­ they were owner-occupied, in the next case tion not of the spirit of the resolution, it is they were tenanted out, and in each case a question of how far along the line it goes. Government will foot the bill. We have got There is no question that if there are loans to be very careful about this. This is why they will be at preferential rates, so they I am opposing this today, because when might just as well be grants, and it is a this thing, if this thing comes forward and question of the extent of the work, and I it receives the blessing of this Court and would ask hon .members of this Court to if it comes to Finance Board, I take a little consider the various types of houses in bit of courage, a little bit of comfort, from the Isle of Man. You have first of all your what the hon. Chairman of the Local Gov­ local authority, publicly owned houses, and ernment Board said. He did say that in the there will be one degree of expenditure case of the roof repairs it would be by loan connected with the re-roofing and the re­ only but, of course, as the hon. member of wiring of them, and there is no doubt that Council has said, that automatically means if you are going to have a re-roofing pro­ grant in one way or another, and interest. ject you are automatically in the same In the case of electrical re-wiring they might

Roof Repairs and Electrical Re-wiring — Declaratory Resolution Approved. T192 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 be loans only too, but if the Local Govern­ about this — which we have today. It is, ment Board are coming to Finance Board to therefore, incumbent upon us as legislators discuss ways and means of promoting a to ensure that we do not engage in scheme of this nature, and it comes with schemes which can be so exploited. For the back-up of a resolution of this nature example, let us take the case of the old in this Court, without the initial research lady with the one bar fire and her syn­ having been done to discover whether, in­ drome — (laughter) — wherever it is. deed, such a scheme is feasible, this Court This old lady could quite easily get a very will be giving blanket approval to the Local advantageous loan with a grant element Government Board to bring a scheme of in so far that the interest would either be this nature for some degree of approval by derisory or non-existent, and having got this the Finance Board. I cannot guarantee that loan in order to effect repairs to the roof, Pinance Board will be prepared, in the light even old ladies are in the habit of finding r>f the terrific amount of expenditure that is that they live in very attractive locations involved in a scheme of this nature by and of selling their properties at huge way of loans, in the terrific amount of prices, with the help of money which they expenditure which is involved in the hous­ have induced a guileless Government into ing purchase scheme, and in the capital providing them with, in order to carry out projects which are before us at this present repairs necessary to make their little house time, with the great advances and escala­ saleable. I believe that this is something tion in the demands made upon us in reve­ Tynwald should not walk into with its eyes nue in the social services, education, health closed. If there is to be any progress made and social security in the Isle of Man, I on this I believe that what we should first cannot say that the Finance Board wi'l posi­ have is a clear, hard-headed discussion tively be able to make the money avai'able. between, on the one hand, the idealism of So I would ask this hon. Court, at this the Local Government Board Chairman, and particu'ar stage, until we know precisely on the other, I think, a real discussion with what the Local Government Board are after, the members of the Finance Board who are to throw it out. perhaps more able to see some of the disadvantages. What the hon. and gallant Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, I would member on my right said is quite true, prac­ like to support what has just been said by tically every house in Peel is, no doubt, en­ the hon. and gallant member on my left titled to this sort of help. Certainly Castle­ and, indeed, by the hon. and ga'lant mem­ town would provide many, many sources ber on my right, and to remind the latter of claims for this sort of thing. By all that Peel is not the only place where some­ means, let us do all we can, but do not times they have a slate loose. walk into this in the way we are doing. Mr. MacDonaid: Valuable slates. I would like to move an amendment that this matter be referred to a joint committee Mr. Simcocks: But loose, nevertheless. comprising the members of the Local Gov­ (Laughter.) The fact is that so many of ernment Board and the members of the these well meaning schemes are produced Finance Board, in order that there should from the heart of Tynwald, and it is up to be a report made available to us, so that some of us to remind us that we have to we can deal with this "curate's egg” of a use our heads. I am a member of a profes­ resolution by accepting the good and mak­ sion which tends sometimes to find itself ing certain that we do not get involved in with instructions to engage in exercises the bad. We must protect ourselves. This is which, quite frankly, although they are the sort of resolution which makes me, as a within the law, do, nevertheless, exploit lawyer, fill my head with a'l the ways in the sort of schemes — let us be truthful which such a scheme can be used for pur­

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poses for which it was never intended. I tain people who require the assistance, but believe that we should refer this matter certainly when you pile up the cost of this to a committee of the Local Government kind of thing to the Island we are bound to Board and Finance Board so that it can listen to Finance Board on the question, be vetted and made, not foolproof, but and if the Local Government Board had as near foolproof as possible. gone to Finance Board and asked them a question such as this without giving them Sir John Bolton: Your Excellency, I was any detail as to what they propose to very pleased to hear the hon. Vice-Chair­ do or how they propose to finance it and man of the Finance Board saying what he what the cost was going to be, then I am did because what puzzles me is why a re­ not surprised that the Finance Board have sponsible Board such as the Local Gov­ told them they are having nothing to do ernment Board should be bringing forward with it. It is essential before any decision is a declaratory resolution without, apparently, made on a matter of this sort that some­ discussion with Finance Board on this body, or Tynwald in any case, should know matter at all. the scope of the scheme, the exact pro­ posals of the scheme, and what it is going Mr. Anderson: We have tried it. to cost over the years.

Sir John Bolton: You have had it turned Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, I hope that down? the Court will accept this resolution. The Chairman of the Local Government Board Mr. Anderson: This is the reason we are has already indicated that he will be com­ here. ing forward with technical and financial details of this particular exercise and if, in Sir John Bolton: You are here because fact, it is approved the Local Government you tried it with the Finance Board. Board, like every Board of Tynwald, will Mr. Crellin: We had the most brief discus- go with their financial estimates, their reve­ cussion on the subject and never in detail. nue expenditure account and their capital expenditure account, to the Finance Board Sir John Bolton: The position in ap­ next March, and in March the Finance proaching the Finance Board, and I have Board, knowing the sums available, will ask had plenty of experience of it, is that you each Board, including the Local Govern­ must come forward with detailed proposa's. ment Board, to delete certain items from You cannot do a thing like this. This means their accounts, and then it becomes a that once this resolution is passed, and I matter for the Board, in this case the Local am afraid I cannot support the hon. mem­ Government Board, to decide how it can ber for Council in his amendment because manage the resources that are given to it all you are doing here is saying, in six by Tynwald. It may be that they will be able months’ time, in 12 months' time, Tynwald to embark on some of this work and delete said we had to do it. This is why you have some of the work, or the cost, from other got this here, to tie Tynwald’s hand so heads of account, and in this way I see that you can come along at any old time that all we are asking for is to be able, and say, here we have got a scheme and within the money that is made available to Tynwald said that we had to bring in re­ us, to organise our own internal affairs, and roofing and we had to bring in re-wiring. I hope the Court will accept that expla­ It is a backdoor method of bringing these nation. things forward, to which I object most strongly. It may well be that the object of Mr. J. N. Radcliiie: Your Excellency, I the exercise is one which is good for cer­ speak, as the hon. member for Ramsey has

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done, in support of this resolution. Quite the rent, to pay this, pay whatever, but let frankly I am, well, not altogether surprised us be realistic today and extend a helping but disappointed to have such suspicion hand to those people, and owner-occupiers and such “Job's Comforters” on the Legis­ are the ones I think about, those people lative bench up there. I am quite sure that who are not in the really needy strata, if there are a number of people on this you could call it that, but they are, in jus­ Island who will be greatly heartened to tice, really in need in a different sort of way hear of this resolution today. There are a and I strongly urge all members to support large number of people who cou^d be called this resolution. these days, a new category If you like, a new class of poor. Now they are people Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I rise to sup­ who own their own homes. Perhaps they port this resolution. It is good to know that bought them 20 or more years ago, or Tynwald has a heart, and even more sur­ indeed they have been left to them and prising to find that it beats in the Local they are now living on either modest wages Government Board. But we are seriously or fixed incomes, and I can think of eight trying in the Local Government Board to or 10 such cases in my own area, with take the responsibilities of our duties seri­ little old Manx slated roofs on them, and ously, and this covers a variety of issues, there Is one elderly lady who said to me one of which is the continuing sprawl from not so long ago, and she was seeking assis­ villages and towns out into the countryside tance to put a new roof on her house, “ It where really in other places, perhaps, is great” she said "to own your own house where the towns are bigger or the cities but not so great if you have only limited are bigger, we are seeing a dying of the means and the roof starts to leak, or the centre and a sprawl of Local Government electrical wiring goes wrong. It is far from Board housing on the outskirts. It was in great then." These people are faced with this way that we started thinking about this, a job which has got to be done and they that our duty should be to try to restore just cannot afford It. They cannot afford to some of the older, sounder buildings of undertake what Is, without doubt in these the inner areas of villages and towns and days, a costly job, just to make the house to preserve not only their use as living secure — no frills attached, none of your accommodation but also the effectiveness fancy ornamental work and so on — just a of the centre of the towns and making the plain ordinary roof, a lid put on the house, centre a viable centre again. What is hap­ and I know Indeed of some houses which pening in Douglas must not be repeated all people have sold rather than face this. over the Island where buildings in the What happens then is that the property is centre fall into disrepair and the edges of razed to the ground and rebuilt, probably the town move further and further out. But with Government help, I would add, and the in addition to that, of course, what exerts people who had lived in it go into rented pressure on the Local Government Board accommodation, possibly even Local Gov­ to build more houses is people seeking re­ ernment Board accommodation at further housing, and when people seek re-housing, cost on the community, and in very many to me, as a doctor, the first thing they men­ cases I know, a house with a bit of charac­ tion is that it is damp and if it is damp ter about it, a Manx type house, the people, there is a fairly high risk that the damp­ had they had a little help, would have ness is coming in through the roof in many stuck with it, and that house is gone and of the older houses, and certainly some of what is installed Is a real eyesore put in the wiring is far from satisfactory. So in its place. We are great in this Court, Your proposing this we are trying in a hard- Excellency, in saying that we are helping headed way to stop some of the pressure those less fortunate who need help, to pay on us to build new housing which in­

Roof Repairs and Electrical Re-wiring — Declaratory Resolution Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T195 evitably must take up more land which is it will obviously only be essential repairs at a premium. As far as living in the that are carried out, but I cannot see how older circumstances is concerned, of the basic thought behind this could really course, we all know the risk of bad wiring be objected to, and I urge everybody to and we all know the medical risk of damp­ support this declaratory resolution, with ness and so on in these houses, and there the hope that eventually it may come down are many people living In them who can to a practical scheme that will do good to afford, as owners, to live in them but can­ the community. not afford the repairs, and so it was with good intention that we set out to try and Mr. Nivison: I would hope that the Court provide these services for a variety of would support this resolution. There are, reasons. There are ways In which this as the last speaker said, plenty of safe­ could be abused, and the hard-headed guards yet to come. There is the Local members sitting at a higher level than our­ Government Board’s actual scheme and selves have pointed them out, but I am how much or otherwise should be avail­ sure, as every Board knows, however good able for these improvements, but the main intentioned the Board may be, by the time reason for me speaking is that the only they have been through Finance Board con­ alternative to assisting people with the sultations and are aware of all the disad­ older property of repairing the roof is for vantages, this scheme will very rapidly be­ the property to come down. I believe my­ come hedged round with protection, and I self, if the Island has an asset at all it is am sure that this one will be hedged round its wonderful rural districts. The people, with plenty of protection and we are really a'though they come to stay in Doug'as, only trying to do essential work. In discus­ they do not come particularly for Douglas, sing this comes the importance of maintain­ they come because as they go round the ing our own stock as well, and I think it country side they see these small proper­ might be of interest, following the questions ties and I think it is absolutely essential earlier, to realise that we are aware that that we should retain these properties in some of our own modern housing, provided these various parts and a lot of these by the Local Government Board, where properties are owner-occupied and they there is a compulsory type of heating, that find themselves in a position that they are we are in danger of allowing a degenera­ unable to carry out the repairs that are tion of our own housing stock through the necessary. I would say to the Court that very policies that are being adopted on there are plently of safeguards. I often compulsory heating and the inability of used to say about the assistance given to people to pay for it, and so we are, in fact, tourism, it was almost like a Grand National trying to find a way out of this situation. race, there were something like 29 hurdles It is not only that we are worried about to go over and a series of ditches and the degeneration of private housing and its invariably people fall in before they get to restoration, but we are a'so worried about the end, but let us have something that the degeneration of the most modern parts will really help people, even if it does of our own houses, and so I think this mean great expense in Peel. Many of us resolution is the result of taking our re­ would like to see the old parts of Peel sponsibilities seriously and trying to find retained. We would not like to see it all an answer that will both help people and wiped away and all new buildings put up. help us to do our job. We will accept the I visit Brighton quite frequently now, as limitations, we will accept that there are, one of my daughters is over there, and or can be, abuses. We will ensure, when it one of the most delightful parts of comes to detailed discussion, that these Brighton is called The Lanes, where the abuses cannot take place, and in the end old property has been made habitable, the

Roof Repairs and Electrical Re-wiring — Declaratory Resolution Approved. T196 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 roofs have been put in order, but every­ available in the towns but the people who thing is old, it is the old cottage type and are willing to purchase those homes, pro­ the old toffee shop type of windows on vide homes for themselves, need support, these shops. Let us keep a lot of this certainly in these two areas. If we do not which is old and this is a means whereby support the people who are willing to buy there will be plenty of safeguards to see these houses for themselves, more and that the money is not wasted and I think it more of the properties we are talking about would be one of the best investments. We are going to fall into the hands of rotten do invest in the visiting industry, quite landlords and be turned into sleasy flats rightly so, and in agriculture, in light in­ and rooms and I would like to see an end dustry, so let us put a little bit into our to it. own heritage, our own properties, our older properties. Now the Local Gov­ The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, I ernment Board may well decide that would just re-echo the words of the last this should only be for certain types of speaker because as I read the resolution, property, it should not include the local Tynwald is of the opinion that considera­ authority houses or it could not include tion shall be given to extending the im­ certain others. It may be for the owner- provement aid available under the Housing occupied house or it might be for the small Improvement Act 1975. We are not com­ type of house under a certain rateable mitting ourselves to a sum of money at this value, et cetera. I do hope that the Court precise moment and there must be, surely, would support this, give the Local Gov­ a relationship and a co-operation between ernment Board a chance. The amendment the Local Government Board and the Fin­ I would not agree to. I think really it is ance Board. I am sorry that my colleagues only a matter of putting off the day of here have spoken as they have. I lived for decision. I think we should arrive at the 18 years in the West Midlands. I was sad day of decision today and allow the Board to see my old town of Walsall a ghost town concerned to go forward. They will sub­ at night because no one had really taken sequently have consultations with Finance the initiative to deal with the property in Board when the proper scheme comes the town centre. Birmingham has been before Tynwald and there is every safe­ facing precisely the same situation and guard. Let us get on with the job and vote now the population is beginning to move for the resolution. back, and I do believe, with great sincerity, that care will be exercised in the admini­ Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I rise to stration of such a scheme, that it will en­ support this resolution and in doing so able Douglas and Peel and Ramsey and would underline some of the words in the Castletown to rejuvenate some of its old, resolution, — "... that consideration inner property. Now, Your Excellency, I should be given to . . .”, and so the think we must remember that many people fullest consultation with Finance Board are finding it extremely expensive to travel must follow and, I would say, will follow, from accommodation, for example, at St. as to who should receive support and what John’s to Douglas, the demands being the essential work should be. But I sup­ made upon a family with rent and travelling port this resolution because I look about and so on, and if we can provide accom­ me and see the towns falling down. I think modation for our young people within our the back streets of Douglas are a dis­ existing communities where they are work­ grace, and that applies to Castletown, Peel ing, I believe we should be doing them a and Ramsey. The façade is fine, but the great service. I certainly support this reso­ back streets are a disgrace. We need lution and I would simply say, every time I homes for young people and homes are see a new house going up, it is more

Roof Repairs and Electrical Re-wiring — Declaratory Resolution Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T197 agricultural land being taken and I think handed back to Government and I think what the hon. member for Ayre said is that if people start looking at it from this true. Certainly I have heard on more than direction we can get a scheme that can help one occasion, is it not a fact, Your Excel­ the people who need the help and restrict lency, that some of our senior citizens those who do not require it. who would have loved to have remained in their own homes, because of the IVtr. Moore: Your Excellency, just to sup­ economics of the re-roofing and re-wiring, port the resolution, because I did second have become, for us, applicants for our old the resolution and reserved my remarks. I people’s homes, and I am quite sure that wondered whether, in view of the fact that some of those who will be going into the this was such an acceptable scheme to the old people’s home in Ramsey which is Local Government Board, it might have now being erected by the Board of Social been a case of saying "Aye” and it would Security, are people who are facing just have been all over because we have tied this very situation, and the day is coming in this resolution certain reservations that when that Board will no longer be able to we ourselves have. This is an extension, provide that accommodation. When one purely and simply, of the Housing Improve­ thinks of the enormous amount of money ment Act 1975. It deals with problems which that is required now to maintain a person we already have by application, people who in one of our old people's homes, I think, are coming to us now under the Housing sincerely, that this is a way in which we Improvement Act and suggesting that there may be able to give a way of life, a decency is certain work which should be done and at the eventide of life, happiness for those which is essential to keep the property on who have served this Island faithfully. the market and keep it habitable. We have inspectors within the Local Government Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I can Board who can assess by their own know­ appreciate the feelings expressed by ledge of the job whether It is fair wear and several members of the Legislative Council tear that we are dealing with or neglect. about people who are ready to take ad­ Now, if it is a case of neglect of property vantage of every resolution that we pass you can be assured by the Local Govern­ in this Court, but I do not think that this ment Board that no grant will be forth­ should blind us to the movement and the coming. We are dealing with cases where motive behind this resolution. If you are a fair wear and tear of a property, nails tenant in a local authority house you have absolutely rusting away in the roof, re­ your house re-roofed and re-wired free of quiring work to be done, this sort of thing charge, and many of the people who are would be looked at by us and I think it is living in the local authority houses are right and proper to say that this Board would much better off than the owner occupiers be looking at it too from the point of view in some of our older property. I feel that of very serious consideration of the people there is a need for this resolution and I who apply. I do not think that we are am going to support the resolution, but I going to give an open cheque to any land­ hope that any scheme that is brought out is lord who comes along owning property all a very restricted scheme to make sure that over the town and say, yes, we will help the villain, aided by, as already admitted, you to get your roofs back in order. We the legal profession, that this kind of are talking, I think, in terms of persons thing is not allowed to go on. We should within this community who are least able be able to tie up a scheme that if people to afford these improvements at this time do try to sell their houses, having had and I think, with the assurance from the substantial help from Government for im­ Board that this is the way they would provements, some of the profits should be approach it, and this is the way that any

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application would be made to the Finance it, let us be quite honest and open about Board, I am sure we will get the support of this. People do not tell other people what the majority of the members of this hon. they have got or where it is tucked away Court to proceed along those lines. or where it is hidden and you will not find this out. The other thing you have got to Mr. Creer: Your Excellency, I just want watch is that it is all very well saying roofs to ask one question of the mover of the have to be done, fair enough, roofs have resolution, which is on the administration to be done, but if you look at it, and I am costs of this scheme. What is it going to taking Peel as an example, if you look at be? How many new inspectors are you a lot of the older properties in Peel it is going to have? Will they be established or not just a roof, it is a fact that the houses taken on temporarily while this scheme is in the lower part of the town are built of in being? As you look round the country­ soft sandstone and most of the damp is side, Your Excellency, just take roofs, for rising damp, it is not roof damp, so if you instance. If you look round the country­ do the roof you are then going to have to side you will see hundreds of roofs in the do the walls, no doubt about this, and what Isle of Man held on, pointed with cement, happens? What I find happens is — and the slates are just held on pointed by I know Mr. Creer is shaking his head. You cement. The inspector would go and say, could not get your walls done with money oh yes, you want a new roof, and I would from you at the moment, from your Board. say, what is the cost going to be in ad­ (Interruption.) You can take a wall down ministration? That is what I am interested and get a new wall put up? in. A member: For rising damp. Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, speak­ ing on the amendment . . . Mr. MacDonald: Oh yes, rising damp is just sticking rods in and putting a slick The Governor: The amendment has not along the bottom and that does not stop it. been seconded. But the problem I feel in this is that you do get these old homes in the Island. Now Mr. MacDonald: Oh, well, can I second one of the things which the Lord Bishop it then? (Laughter.) The main reason I meant, and these poor. . . wish to do this is because I do feel myself that I think the Board could have come Mr. Nivision: Could I ask, Your Excel­ forward with a lot more information be­ lency, is not this a second speech and cause it is all very well coming to us today not on the amendment? and saying, "Come on, give us a blanket for this." I can understand this but what Mr. MacDonald: No, it is not a second they have not said is that other things speech. I am explaining why my hon. col­ affect this and I cannot see how you are league is so worried about this. (Laughter.) going to differentiate, quite honestly, be­ You see, we talk about the old dears, you tween the fly boy and the ordinary person. know, who are seriously affected living in Are you going to say, “How much money these places. This is nice, this is good talk, have you got in the bank?” but the fact is that the Isle of Man is not like the United Kingdom. If an old dear A member: Yes. moves out of a house she owns and moves Into a protected house provided by the Mr. MacDona.’d: You cannot. You would state, the home she owns has to be not declare your interests even in here so offered to the state or to a local authority, how are you going to expect-other people otherwise she pays the full economic rent to declare interests? Let us be fair about of her new accommodation. This. is the

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United Kingdom system which, at the a period of recession and if we make moment, we do not have. We say, sell policy decisions which imply that money your house for £60,000 and then we will will have to be spent and raise people’s take you into the Corrin Home or West- hopes that it is to be spent and then dash lands or Southlands or into any home and them, then it is very irresponsible, I think, nothing happens. on our part. The hon. member in his reso­ lution has mentioned the Housing Improve­ Mr. Cringle: They pay. ment Act 1975. Many of us recall how that was brought in at a time, and the Act Mr MacDonald: Well, yes, if they have not stipulates what type of improvement is re­ handed the money straight away over to quired to, shall I say, renovate houses and their children as soon as they sell the house improve them. What I would like to know and this is what a lot of people are doing from the hon. member is, when considering and how you get round this I do not know the extension of this Act, why has he picked and this is why I am not too happy about on these two specific matters, one of re­ the scheme. roofing and one of electrical re-wiring? The whole point here, surely, is that if houses The Governor: Do you wish to reply, sir? need repairing, it does not have to be said that we will only give money to put Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I hon­ a new toilet in, et cetera. What if the win­ estly appeal to the hon. member of Coun­ dows fall out? Can you give us some indi­ cil who has just resumed his seat for the cation of what the Board said in the first very fact that it is . . . place when they were reconsidering the operation of the Act of 1975 and why they Mr. Delaney: Is the hon. member reply­ have restricted this particular declaration ing? to these two features?

Mr. Anderson: I am sorry. Mr. J. J. Radcli'fe: Your Excellency, very A member: He is speaking to the amend­ briefly, I think there are two points here ment. that this hon. Court should consider. One of principle, as to whether or not we should Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, is the support this scheme, and I would submit, hon. mover replying? Your Excellency, that if it is our policy to help finance the building of new houses I The Governor: I understood that you can see nothing wrong in helping finance were about to reply. Do you wish to speak? the repair of old ones. The second prin­ ciple, I think, is one of detail and as tho Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, may I say two hon. members of the Finance Board that I would like to reinforce what my hon. have said so eloquently, a lot of detail has colleague in Council has said apropos the got to be considered, this is fine, but I do financial implications because I think this not think this is quite the place to do that. has been overlooked. We tend on these As the hon. member for Garff, I think, said, issues to become emotive. I am not deni­ there will be a lot of hedging and, pos­ grating this Legislature as being a caring sibly, a little ditching too to be done be­ representation of the people of this Island, fore we approve the final scheme. I would far from it, but when you have got to look also like to endorse the remarks of the at a question like this you have got to con­ hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Walker. I sider whether, in fact, it is feasible. Is it think he raised some very valid points there going to be viable? I have great anxiety and I entirely agree with him. This decay at the moment that Britain is entering into of our towns is something that I think this

Roof Repairs and Electrical Re-wiring — Declaratory Resolution Approved. T200 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 scheme will go a long way towards help­ take my own constituency — in the last ing and I have always been a great believer five or six years, 1,400 people have left in hanging on to what heritage we have, my constituency and I am sure the Com­ as the Lord Bishop has said, and to pre­ mittee looking at the electoral reform will vent these buildings falling into disrepair. remember that. Well, the situation is, where I would just like to refer to the remark have they gone to? (Laughter and inter­ of the hon. Vice-Chairman of the Local ruptions.) The have gone to the Utopia of Government Board. When the inspectors the luxury bungalow which, up to two or go round to look at what needs repair they three years ago, was a snip and they could may well find a lot of the roofs need re­ get help from the Government but we know placing through neglect because the owner and the Finance Board know the number occupier probably had no option but to of young Manx people who are applying for neglect it and that their inspectors will take grants and then realising the amount of a very reasonable and humane view of the money, if they can get it, they have to pay situation, i am sure they will. I support the back. With us getting rid of the Usury resolution. Acts, which I, at this moment, have not been reminded is a good thing or not, the bank rate is, at the moment, 19 per cent., Mr. Delaney: I would suggest that those how can we house people knowing they members who spoke against it are really cannot afford to buy their own and know­ not thinking in the long term and the rea­ ing the cost we are going to have to pay son this has to be supported here is be­ for units? If we do not do this, well, all cause of the situation that we have created we are going to do in two or three years and the success of the Finance Board time is have double or treble the number bringing over new residents has created. of people on the housing lists and they will We have a situation in the Isle of Man, be howling at the door of this hon. Court and no-one will disagree with this, I am asking us what we are doing about it. So sure, where most ordinary young people any member of the Council who thinks, or cannot afford to buy new houses. There­ any member of this Court who thinks we fore, if they cannot afford new ones they are spending money here unwisely, have a have to go for old ones. We know that if look in two or three years' time at the we do not let them have old ones to buy situation we have created by the very terms themselves we have got to build them and of reference which they said were going to we are aware of the increased number of do us a world of good. We have an in­ applications to local authorities for housing. crease in the population, increase in the It is cheaper for the Government to help lowering of the tax, all this has built up them to re-wire and re-roof houses than to a situation where we have to supply more to build new ones for them so any mem­ houses or, as this resolution says, do some­ ber of this hon. Court who thinks that at thing about the existing houses that are the moment by not supporting this resolu­ there today. tion they are saving the Government money is quite wrong. I am sorry to see a friend of mine, an hon. member of the Council, Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, may I congratulating with Crosby Commissioners just quickly try to clarify one or two points, or some Commissioners on selling a house, perhaps, for the hon. Chairman when he after buying it, for double the price. That is replies? Reference has been made to grants a situation that we are in in the Isle of in some of the speeches. As I understand Man, where property has doubled in the it we are only talking about loans, lending last year or year and a half. That is what the necessary capital to people who need has haopened and the properties have now it to carry out necessary repairs to their doubled in price. Properties — and I will houses under an Act and a scheme which

Roof Repairs and Electrical Re-wiring — Declaratory Resolution Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T201 is already in existence and the Local Gov­ were overwhelmingly in support. In my ernment Board is asking in principle for the opinion, it will be of great benefit to the approval of this Court to extend it in two future of the Island. I would appeal to the respects, to roof works and to electricity. Court and ask them, we have been re­ I cannot see any objection to it whatso­ sponsible for this scheme for a number of ever, I am all in favour of grants, sorry, years. Have we, as a Board, abused in any all in favour of loans. (Laughter.) I am all way the moneys that Tynwald has alloca­ in favour of making capital available to ted for that purpose? I do not think there people who cannot find it in their own re­ is a member of this Court who can stand sources to carry out necessary works of up and say that there has been one scheme this kind and I am absolutely opposed to approved which has not been justified. I giving grants. think that this is absolutely correct. We handle the Tourist Improvement Scheme. Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, in answer Have there been abuses in our handling to the hon. member for Middle, our people of that? In no way. We look at those are already inspecting most of these houses schemes, we examine them thoroughly, anyway for other purposes so it would not Your Excellency, we will act responsibly. really involve a great deal more than that. We are asking the Court to approve. I am Actually, I was getting round, when I absolutely amazed at my hon. friend of the got on my feet previously, to address my Council saying, we have endless documen­ remarks mainly to the hon. member of tation at our office in our attempts, and Council, Mr. MacDonald, because I have letters from the Finance Board or from the been motivated more probably by what is Treasury and we can show them to the in Peel than anywhere else, when I have hon. member, endless documentation, seen the vast cost of the restoration work where we have got nothing over a very long that was done in the houses in Peel. Ad­ period and we only come here as an ulti­ mittedly, a good job, but the hon. member mate. The hon. member is smiling but we knows it was a very expensive job. The have got a file in the office to show him hon. member knows that there were two what has happened and we have got no­ areas cleared there where it is just so ex­ where. We come here as a last resort, pensive to replace those houses that it is which we are entitled to do democraticaMy, just not possible to do it. This is the thing to seek what I believe is the overwhelm­ that concerns me. I believe that by appeal­ ing view of the hon. members of this Court. ing to the Court to do this today we could, I am amazed too, he suggests what will in fact, put another 50 years on many of we do about local authority houses. Local these houses. They are not going to be authority houses, as the hon. member next all done overnight, it is going to be a very to him, Mr. Kneale, has so rightly pointed drawn out job, nor is everbody going to out, can be re-roofed and re-wired and qua'ify for the loan. We have stated cate­ gorically that there will be restrictions on this is being done all the time. It is this that, that we are prepared to restrict it to category of persons, which has so rightly the owner-occupiers, not someone who is been pointed out by the hon. member for going to make a killing. Ayre, where they have just not got the re­ sources to do it. Again I go back to Peel, A member: On summer houses. one of the persons who came to me, who was working as a nursing officer, an elderly Mr. MacDonald: That is where they are person whose home was left to them, there going. was no way iti. which she could find the Mr. Anderson: Well, not you know in that money. She said, "I had to renew the win­ respect, but I would hate the Council to dows last year, there is no way in which throw this one out. The Keys, I believe, I can find the money to do the roof. Mother

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left me this house, it is in poor condition.” A division was called for and voting re­ Really, what she has got to do is find a sulted as follows:— Local Government Board or a Commis­ sioners’ house in which to live but if this is In the Keys— done and somebody has said, well she may pass on, and it might be sold to some­ For: Mr. Kermeen— 1. body else. It may be sold to somebody else Against: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, J. J. but it will be home for somebody else Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Dr. Mann, maybe for the next 50 years, but if there Messrs. Callin, Watterson, Creer, is no roof on it it is going to be of no Walker, Cringle, Quinney, Craine, use to anybody and I really cannot see the Delaney, Irving, Mrs. Hanson, Dr. logic of the hon. members on the top Moore, Messrs. Christian and Swales bench who are opposing this today be­ — 18. cause, as so many hon. members of the Keys have said here today, it is going to The Acting-Speaker: Your Excellency, the result in these houses being left derelict amendment has been lost in the House of or being demolished and somebody else Keys, one vote being cast in favour and 18 coming in to build a car park in their place against. and then the town centres becoming dead. I believe this applies far more to the In the Council— towns than it does to the rural areas and I am sure if it is approved the scheme For: Messrs. Crellin, MacDonald—2. then will have to come forward both to Tynwald and the Finance Board for appro­ Against: The Lord Bishop, Sir John val and we can tie into that as many safe­ Bolton, Messrs. Kneale, Moore, Nivi- guards as Tynwald and the Finance Board son, Kerruish— 6. require but for goodness sake let us do something to preserve something which I The Governor: In the Council, two in believe will be of fundamental importance favour, six against, so the amendment to this Island for a very long time to come, therefore fails to carry. I will now put the something which is really worthwhile, some­ motion. Those in favour please say aye; thing which is important. Really, I some­ against, no. times wonder at the priorities of the Fin­ ance Board, when I think of some of the A division was called for and voting re­ things which have been approved this year sulted as follows:— and the expenditure of money. It is amaz­ ing to me, as far as I am concerned. This In the Keys— is to serve the ordinary people of the F or: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, J. J. Rad­ Island not the extraordinary ones and I cliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Dr. Mann, Messrs. think in doing this that is exactly what we Callin, Watterson, Creer, Walker, are seeking to do. I beg to move and I Cringle, Quinney, Craine, Delaney, believe the Court will support. Irving, Mrs. Hanson, Dr. Moore, Messrs. Christian and Swales— 18. The Governor: I will first put the amend­ ment which was moved by the hon. mem­ Against: Mr. Kermeen— 1. ber of Council, Mr. Simcocks, that this question should be referred to a joint com­ The Acting-Speaker: Your Excellency, the mittee of the Finance Board and the Local motion has been carried in the House of Government Board. Will those in favour of Keys, 18 votes being cast for and one the amendment please say aye; against, no. against.

Roof Repairs and Electrical Re-wiring — Declaratory Resolution Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T203

In the Council— (d) The Customs and Excise Acts (Appli­ cation) (Amendment No. 2) Order For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Kneale, 1979 made by the Finance Board on Moore, Nivison, Kerruish— 5. the 30th October 1979; and

Against: Sir John Bolton, Messrs. Crellin (e) The Customs and Excise Warehousing and MacDonald—3. Regulations (Application) (Amend­ ment) Order 1979 made by the Fin­ The Governor: Five in favour, three ance Board on the 30th October 1979. against, the motion therefore carries. Mr. Kermeen: I beg to second.

The Governor: Is that agreed? CUSTOMS AND EXCISE LEGISLATION (APPLICATION) (No. 2) (AMENDMENT) It was agreed. ORDER 1979; CUSTOMS DUTIES (ECSC) ANTI­ DUMPING (APPLICATION) (No. 6) ORDER 1979; HYDRO-ELECTRIC SCHEME — SPIRITS REGULATIONS (APPLICATION) CONSTRUCTION — APPROVED. ORDER 1979; CUSTOMS AND EXCISE ACTS The Governor: Item number 7. I call on (APPLICATION) (AMENDMENT No. 2) the hon. member of Council, Mr. Moore. ORDER 1979; Would you just wish to move the motion CUSTOMS AND EXCISE WAREHOUSING and then we shall adjourn for lunch? REGULATIONS (APPLICATION) (AMENDMENT) ORDER 1979 Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, I beg to — APPROVED. move:—

The Governor: Item No. 6, the Vice- WHEREAS on the 17th October 1979 Tyn­ Chairman of the Finance Board. wald received the Third Interim Report of the Select Committee on Energy. Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— AND WHEREAS, as a consequence of this Report, Tynwald approved a declara­ That the following Orders be and the tory resolution that immediate considera­ same are hereby approved:— tion be given to the Select Committee’s recommendation that immediate action be (a) The Customs and Excise Legislation (Application) (No. 2) (Amendment) taken to promote a hydro-electric scheme in the North West of the Island. Order 1979 made by the Finance Board on the 24th October 1979; NOW THEREFORE TYNWALD— (b) The Customs Duties (ECSC) Anti- Dumping (Application) (No. 6) Order (a) approves the construction ot a hydro­ 1979 made by the Finance Board on electric scheme utilising the waters of the 24th October 1979; the Rhenas, Glen Mooar and Glen Wyllin rivers in two stages as recom­ (c) The Spirits Regulations (Application) mended by the Select Committee on Order 1979 made by the Finance Board Energy a t' a cost not exceeding on the 24th October 1979; £1,060,000;

Customs and Excise Legislation (Application) (No. 2) (Amendment) Order 1979; Cus­ toms Duties (ECSC) Anti-Dumping (Application) (No. 6) Order 1979; Spirits Regulations (Application) Order 1979; Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment No. 2) Order 1979; Customs and Excise Warehousing Regulations (Application) (Amendment) Order 1979 — Approved. — Hydro-Electric Scheme — Construction — Approved. T204 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

(b) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle hydro-electric scheme. This, of course, is of Man to advance out of capital not the scheme which was originally known moneys during the year ending 31st as the Little London scheme which, if it March 1980 a sum not exceeding had been proceeded with at that time, £15,000 to cover the cost of prelimin­ would have been producing electricity for ary work on this scheme; us now at 0.9 pence per unit and it would have been producing nine million units per (c) approves and sanctions borrowings not annum into our Electricity Board’s supply. exceeding £1,060 000 being made by The present scheme is only producing half Government, such borrowings to be of that. It is a simpler scheme and it will repaid within a period of 15 years; and produce 4J million units of electricity into the Board’s supply by 1983. The terms, of (d) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle course, under the scheme which we have of Man to advance a loan of the total now agreed with the Finance Board are capital cost of the scheme to the somewhat different from what we had in Isle of Man Electricity Board, such mind because what we were after was the loan to be repaid in ten equal instal­ Energy Committee, and do not forget, when ments, the first instalment of principal and interest to be repaid one year from I went to Finance Board to submit this the date of the completion of the scheme I was a member of the Energy scheme, or on the 1st A pril 1983, Committee. In the absence of the Chair­ whichever is the earlier. man, the hon. Mr. Speaker, I proceeded to Finance Board along with the hon. member Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, in submit­ for Council, Mr. Simcocks, based on the ting this resolution standing in my name, idea that I was proceeding with a scheme I am sure that many members of this hon. which immediately would be acceptable to Court will appreciate that the problem of my consumers in that they would be paying trying to strike a balance between the firm no more for their electricity because of the indication of support given to the scheme capital cost of this scheme in the original by this Chamber during a previous debate state than they would normally be paying on the third interim report of the Select if we had proceeded along the old lines of Committee of Tynwald and the resolve of oil. It is very difficult, as every member of the Isle of Man Electricity Board to pro­ this hon. Court will understand, for me to ceed with the recommendations on the one project what is going to happen by 1983 hand, and the equally firm but understand­ and, of course, we must accept, and I am able stand by the Finance Board that we sure every member of this hon. Court will cannot proceed with the scheme on the accept the fact that the price of oil will same financial arrangements as that of the go up and, therefore, the price per unit Block Eary scheme, has led to the pro­ generated will go up but the present posi­ posal being placed before you in a rather tion is that we can produce electricity even different manner from that which was origi­ by oil, produce electricity on generation, nally proDosed and agreed by this hon. at something in the region of 2.5 pence Court. The only points about this resolu­ per unit. When we commit the Board to tion that need explanation to the members this scheme, what we are saying, in effect, of this hon. Court are contained in parts is that in 1983 the cost of producing elec­ (c) and (d). I know full well that the mem­ tricity by this method, the cost of genera­ bers of this hon. Court have gone into tion, will be 3.61 pence per unit and it is the details and have studied the scheme a very big step for a commercial Board to which we showed as to how we can bring undertake because, do not forget now, the 4 \ million units of electricity into our sys­ Energy Committee recommends this tem by 1983 by the method of using a scheme but the Electricity Board are the

Hydro-Electric Scheme — Construction — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T205 people who, in the long term, must now engineering features which are there for 60 say, we are going along with this scheme years in any case, and longer, would be on the resolution and on the suggestions paid for over a very long term and the which have been placed in front of us short term works would be paid for on a by the Finance Board. There may be ques­ more equitable system. Here again, these tions from members, incidentally, on the are problems which we have got to stand relationship between the loan fraction of up to. On the face of the system, no matter this resolution which spells out clearly that which way it goes, I think that this is a the Government is to borrow money not winner. I am quite sure in my own mind, exceeding £1,060,000 to be repaid within Your Excellency, that the Block Eary a period of 15 years. It may seem incom­ scheme will start turning the wheels next patible that In the next paragraph we are October, that we could wait and sit back, talking about a rebate back period of 10 we could act traa-dy-liooar and say, let years but, of course, we must remember us have a look at one before we go on that what is happening with this particular the other, but the costs are rising all the resolution is that the Finance Board have time. With these two schemes in operation now said to us, we will borrow £1.06 six million units of electricity will be pro­ million on your behalf, we will have to pick duced. Six million units of electricity is up the tab straight away and pay back only about 3 per cent, of the total output the interest, this is the Finance Board, but that we require but it is 3 per cent, of the what they have said to us now is that on total output supplied by water coming down top of that £1.06 million which we were the hill and turning the generator with very borrowing for you, when you start paying it little cost outside of that, so it must be a back in 1983 when the wheels start turn­ winner regardless of what our long term is ing and you are going to receive something and you can talk about coal fired stations back in the way of generation and in the and hydro-electrics and you can talk about way of sale of units, you will be responsible nuclear and everything else but, in the long not only for the £1.06 million but for the term, If you have got something here on accrued interest on that sum and this is this Island which is providing a back-up of why I am saying that, at this stage, my six million units of electricity, you must be Board, the Electricity Board, are worried on a winner. I say, Your Excellency, that to say the least. I am quite sure, and I am we should go ahead with the scheme. trying to assure my Board that by that time There are problems. We might even in the we will be on a winner because there Is long term have to come back to the Fin­ no question about one thing in my mind, ance Board at the end of the day and talk Your Excellency, as far as this Island Is in terms of, we are in a situation here where concerned we are on a winner. As far as we are afraid to put our feet in the water, this Island in the long term is concerned, can you do anything else for us, but, at when I quoted the figures of the last ope­ this stage, I have sufficient confidence and ration which we turned down because we I hope the Court will support this effort were afraid to take the first step, 0.9 pence to get off the ground with at least one of per unit we would have been charging now, these schemes again. It is not very long, now we are talking in terms of 3.61 pence I know, but you had faith in me and my per unit if we have to pay the money back Board to back us on the Block Eary in the method supplied. Sometimes I scheme. I know that this Court Is aware wonder, of course, whether we would not be of the situation on energy and I am quite better on a normal financial basis of long sure we will get a lot of support to go term loans which could bring it back, pcs- ahead. All I am saying is that there is a sibly, to about 2.61 pence per unit but this worry at the back of my mind. I am com­ would be long term. It would mean that the mitting my Board to a very big expenditure

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in terms of paying back over a short period at very carefully, but there are other con­ but I know that the Finance Board in their siderations to take as well. I did pursue wisdom will look at it at the right time one subject and that was within the catch­ and, possibly, if things do not turn out ex­ ment area, as far as the water was con­ actly as we see them now, they may be cerned, for this particular project and this able to come to some arrangement. I beg is, of course, a run of the mill project which to move the resolution standing in my name. means that this is a project which is runn­ ing all the time. The water that is collected Mr. Kerruish: I beg to second and re­ goes through one energy producing serve my remarks. machine and it passes on to the other, therefore this means that the water is The Governor: I propose that the Court being taken away from the catchment area, should adjourn until 2.30 p.m. it is not being replaced into these little streams, and there are circumstances in The Court adjourned for lunch. which I believe that we would have to re­ place water taken away by this scheme, and this is going to cost us a lot of money. I am not against, as I said, replacing this HYDRO-ELECTRIC SCHEME — water, but I believe the figures that we DEBATE CONCLUDED. have here are not the right figures, and I cannot get the right figures at this par­ The Governor: We continue with Item No. ticular time. I would like to see much more 7, hon. members. time being spent on peparing the actual Members: Agreed. statistics in this particular case. We are looking now at other means as well of Mr. Quirk: I am delighted to hear all the supplying electricity to the Isle of Man. shouts of “Agreed” on this item, but there I think the hydro-electric scheme we all must be some explanation to be done as approve of, but we must be very careful that well. I am a little embarrassed to get on this is being done in the right and proper my feet today because this is not really a manner. My Chairman mentioned the pos­ resolution from the Electricity Board at all. sible unit charge of 3.6 pence. Now this, It is a resolution that comes before us I think may be on the conservative side, from the Select Committee on Energy, and I do not know. I would suggest that we I would think the way this wou'd come should be talking about 4 pence per unit, about would be through the Electricity something in that region, but if you spread Board. Now, as I have said, I agree with this over a time of 25 years, we are in the principle of this but I certainly can­ with a great saving to the Manx public, of not, in any way, agree with some of the course we are, but at the present time we statements that are made within this reso­ have our consumers to think about as lution here today. Broadly speaking, we well, and these are the people who are are fairly well on the ball, but there are going to pay for it. They are the people we other considerations as well. As far as the have to draw the money from to build these principle is concerned, we are talking hydro-electric schemes and work them as about a hydro-electric scheme which will well. I, as a layman, sometimes wonder produce probably 4£ million units and I iust how we are going to infuse into our am given to understand that one gallon of own system this electricity that we develop. oil produces 17 units of electricity. There­ I hope I have not created a situation here fore, we are starting on a scheme which now where you think that we, as an Elec­ will save something like 250,000 gallons tricity Board, are withdrawing from the of oil. That in itself is something to look hydro-electric schemes, we are rio'f,' we

Hydro-Electric Scheme — Debate Concluded. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T207

are fully in favour of them, but we must can see that generation by oil is not going be given the chance to look at this and to stand still. Looking ahead to 1983, I look at it properly and come before this think, possibly, the figure of 3.61 pence Court with details that can give us all an will be what we are being charged on oil. idea of what this cost is going to be. I The hon. member himself has said, look at would like to say that we have the remit the conservation alone, of the saving in before us now, as we always have, to oil. The hon. member mentions, of course, bring electricity to our consumers as that it is a worry to us. I said that. What economically and reliably as possible. I he is talking about is quite correct. If we would like to see, accept the principles of were going out on the ordinary commercial this scheme, but allow us the time to look market and seeking loans from Govern­ at it and come back again to a figure which ment over 25 years for machinery and 60 we think we can achieve and not just the years on engineering work, the cost could figures here. then probably be reduced to something like 2.61 pence, the present cost of The Governor: Do you wish to reply, sir? generation by oil. The two charges would Mr. Moore: Yes, Your Excellency. I can be equal. But this is long term. We do not well understand a member of my Board know how interest charges are going to who is wearing one hat confess very go. Even if we go through Government we serious concern about the resolution. I, have got to seek support from Finance unfortunately, was wearing two hats, and I Board to give us a fixed rate of interest. think I said in my opening remarks that Whether they wou'd be prepared to give this was a resolution which was voted us fixed rates of interest over a 60 year through this hon. Court in the first place loan period is very debatable. What I said as a recommendation from the Energy Com­ was that in view of the fact that this has mittee. I know that there are worries and I been acceptable to every member of this have expressed these worries in my open­ Court, that the scheme itself has been ing remarks to this hon. Court. I am not brought to the quick notice of the Board, worried about the figures, I am quite happy and I would like to point out that this is that the figures are as near as we would how quick it was. The Energy Committee ever get to a proposal of this sort on made recommendations, we supported the actual costing, but what I said in my open­ recommendations and we went to Finance ing remarks is still relevant. The figures Board as an Energy Committee. The hon. which are expressed and the worries that member for Council, Mr. Simcocks, and I, are expressed by my hon. Vice-Chairman met Finance Board on the Wednesday, I of the Electricity Board are, of course, im­ think it was the 7th of this month, and we portant to us. We are looking at a situa­ put the scheme to them on the basis that tion, as I explained, that when we start we were talking about, on the same basis paying back this loan, plus interest, we are as Block Eary. The Finance Board, and I starting from April 1983 under the terms said, understandably, decided that it was of this resolution of paying back at a cost not possible to do it under that system and which will be in the region of 3.63 pence that they must have a reply from me by per unit — 1983. I was looking long term Wednesday, the following day, because the and saying that I feel that at that time it recommendation for this particular reso­ will probab'y be acceptable because, as lution had to go in front of Executive those of you who have listened to me on Council for ratification the following day. previous occasions will know, I have ex­ “Make your mind up, Alex, in one day, are plained that in one year alone our cost of you prepared to accept a new motion?” I oil went up by million last year, the rang the members and said, “These are actual increase in the cost of oil, and you the proposals. I am going to accept them

Hydro-Electric Scheme — Debate Concluded. T208 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 on your behalf but I am quite prepared if understanding, as I said, that there must you tell me at the end of the day that you be a certain amount of flexibility some­ must withdraw, so be it.” But I thought it where along the line if we find that our was important that we get the resolution sums are wrong and our consumers are forward. There is too much of this business going to pay more than they are at present of saying, this is a good scheme but it paying, purely and simply for something will be all right for tomorrow. All I am try­ which is for the long term good of the ing to do is to say, today is the day when Island. we should make definite, firm commit­ ments on something of this sort. When we The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. mem­ do that, if the figures are not right at the bers? end of the day, I will have no hesitation It was agreed. in coming back to this hon. Court and saying, well, I am sorry, the sums are not right and I am, therefore, not going to go ahead with the scheme, but at this stage I BILLS FOR SIGNATURE — REQUISITE feel it is viable. I feel that we must get on SIGNATURES OBTAINED. with the job at once, we must do something about it and, of course, I appreciate the The Governor: The Governor's General fact the hon. member has made, it has Functions (Transfer) Bill 1980 and Mem­ been mentioned in the House of Keys, it bers of Executive Council (Terms of has been mentioned all over the place, Office) Bill have been signed by a quorum what is the long term? What have the of both Branches. We have, hon. members, Energy Committee said about the long a further Bill which is on a Supplementary term? We are going away this week, cer­ Agenda, the Customs and Excise (Trans­ tain members of the Energy Committee, to fer of Functions) Bill, which is also fairly talk about what is the long term with re­ urgent, so I would ask the Attorney-General, gard to generation on the Island but, of with the permission of the Court, to move course, it has not been in front of the that the Supplementary Agenda be con­ Joint Electricity Authority yet. The Energy sidered. Committee are now committed to long term proposals for the Island. If anything comes The Attorney-General: I beg to move:— of these which is different from what we have at present, we may have to change That permission be granted, under Stand­ our mind, we might have some other ideas. ing Order 27(6), for the business on But at this stage, knowing the situation as Supplementary Agenda number 3 to be it at present is, this is a must. If some taken. other decision comes out from the Energy Committee with a firm proposal in another The Governor: If hon. members agree direction, and if this firm proposal goes to we will sign this Bill whilst we continue the Joint Electricity Authority, not to the with our business. Board, to the Joint Electricity Authority, and if anything comes of that, of course, Mr. Cringle: It is only three weeks till then we will be in a position to say, this we meet again in December, is it not, and can wait a while and we go on with the there are quite a number of members other. At this stage all I am saying is that missing today. despite the worries of my colleagues on the Board, I think this is the time when I The Governor: It is just a matter of get­ must strike and I must put this resolution ting a quorum for the signature of the Bill, firmly to this hon. Court on the distinct and with Christmas coming there may be

Bills for Signature — Requisite Signatures Obtained. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T209 some delay in getting the Royal Assent, is The consultants engaged have advised that that agreed? there is a danger that an exceptional storm occurring when the toe of the sea wall is It was agreed. temporarily exposed could reult in the loss of the wall and possibly invasion by the sea of the Mooragh Lake area by high tide. The Ramsey Town Commissioners are most VOLLAN SEA WALL AND PROMENADE, concerned at the present extent of the RAMSEY — REPAIRS — APPROVED. erosion of the beach in this area and re­ gard the overall risk to the wall itself and The Governor: Item No. 8. I call on the the land and property behind the wall, in­ Chairman of the Local Government Board. cluding the Promenade, as unacceptable. Accordingly, the Commissioners proposed, Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to as a matter of some urgency, to take steps move:— to stabilise the beach in order to prevent further erosion. First aid measures have That Tynwald— already been taken by the Commissioners to regrade the affected beach to provide (a) aoproves the payment to the Ramsey immediate protection of the wall but a Town Commissioners of a grant of long term remedy is required. The con­ £35 940 towards the cost of the works sultants have advised that it would be necessary to stabilise the Vollan Sea highly desirable to install a simple exten­ Wall, Ramsey, and the Promenade be­ sion of the front of the sea wall to give hind that wall, such grant being 75% protection to the seaward side of its foun­ of the cost of the works within the dation. It has been estimated that it would boundary of the town of Ramsey and cost £46,000, inclusive of fees, to do this 100% of the cost of the works within work, and the Commissioners applied to the parish of Lezayre; and the Board for a grant towards this cost. (b) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of After consultation with the Finance Board Man to aoply out of the General it was agreed to recommend, subject to Revenue of this Isle during the year the approval of this hon. Court, a Govern­ ending 31st March 1980 a sum not ment grant of 75 per cent, towards that exceeding £35,940. part of the works in the town of Ramsey and 100 per cent, towards the cost of a In the winter of 1978/79, a significant small section in the parish of Lezayre. In lowering of the beach adjacent to the making this recommendation, it was pointed Vollan Sea Wall in Ramsey occurred, which out to the Board that the provisions of the Town Commissioners were informed the Ramsey Town Act 1970 prevented the was due either to a major long term change Commissioners spending ratepayers' money in the pattern of erosion or, more likely, on these works outside the town. It was by a random local effect which travelled in their interests, of course, to deal with by littoral drift until it reached a natural the part outside the town because if they or man-made obstruction. The erosion or did not deal with that part it would actually denudation of this beach, particularly along be ineffective, the bit within the Ramsey its northern section where it runs into the Town boundary. I know hon. members will parish of Lezayre, caused erosion of query why 100 per cent, and why 75 per material behind the sea wall which has cent., but the parish of Lezayre had no become undermined in a number of places. particular interest in preserving this bit of The adjoining road, known as the Vollan erosion at all. As hon. members are aware, Promenade, is also likely to be affected. around the whole of the north of the Island

Vollan Sea Wall and Promenade, Ramsey — Repairs — Approved. T210 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 there is very considerable erosion that Act to see whether they have power, but nobody is doing anything about. Therefore, I imagine that if the total cost of the work they are not particularly interested in this outside the Ramsey boundary, in the parish part of it because it is no different from of Lezayre, is being met by Government, I that which is occurring elsewhere and would not think there would be any objec­ nothing has been done about it, but in tion at all. order to protect the part that is being done by the Ramsey Commissioners, it is The Governor: Is that agreed? necessary for this to be done and, there­ It was agreed. fore, it has been necessary for us to seek a grant of 100 per cent, of that. It is esti­ mated that the cost of the sea defence works within the town amounts to £40,250 DOUGLAS HARBOUR — IMPROVEMENT and that outside to £5,750, making up the WORKS — APPROVED. total of £46,000. On the percentage basis to which I have referred, the Government The Governor: Item No. 9. Chairman of grant amounts to £35,940, for which sum the Isle of Man Harbour Board. the approval of this hon. Court is today requested. It is proposed to commence the Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I beg works at a very early date. Your Excel­ to move:— lency, I beg to move. That in view of the numerous Commis­ Mr. Moore: I beg to second. sions and Reports since 1922, all strongly recommending the construction of im­ Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I wonder proved outer works at Douglas Harbour to if I may ask one question which perhaps render shipping berths safe and tenable the learned Attorney could answer? Is it particularly in east to south-south-easterly permissible under the terms of the Act gales in all but exceptionally severe con­ for the Ramsey Town Commissioners to ditions, Tynwald — undertake work outside their district? (a) approves of the Harbour Board pro­ Mr. Anderson: I am sorry, I did not hear ceeding with the necessary works to what the hon. member said. protect the Battery Pier which is raoidly deteriorating after one hundred Mr. Kermeen: Is it permissible, since the years’ existence. Such works to in­ money has been given to Ramsey Town clude a reclaimed area of approximate­ Commissioners to undertake work of this ly 1.33 acres on which may be esta­ nature, for them to do it in terms of the blished accommodation for urgently- Act outside their own district, namely, the needed additional fuel storage facilities parish of Lezayre. and a buried sea-water pumping cham­ ber to meet vital fire-fighting require­ Mr. Anderson: This is not as I was in­ ments in the immediate area; formed of it. (b) approves of the Harbour Board under­ The Governor: This is a question, not a taking an extension seaward of the statement. existing Battery Pier to render all berths in both the inner and outer The Attorney-General: The hon. member harbours tenable in all but the most would like me to answer the question, Your extreme weather conditions; Excellency. I do not know the answer. I would have to look at the Ramsey Town (c) approves of the above schemes being

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undertaken at an estimated cost not be considered acceptable in a more recent exceeding £7,200,000. construction of modern-day design, let alone a 100 year old structure. Moreover, (Reference: Annual Estimates of Gov­ since the outer section is unable to act, ernment Treasurer 1979/80, Harbours, page in a structural sense, independently on the 11, item 3). inner section, the roundhead wave-loads are being distributed within the entire pier Your Excellency, I am only hoping that I as a whole. That this is, in fact, happening am going to be treated like Lezayre today has been brought home over the past year, and get it in the form of a grant. Although after the very severe storms experienced, I have already given members in advance in that several of the pre-cast concrete a copy of what I am going to say today, I deck units of the pier’s inner section have think it is very important that this does go sunk in some places to a depth of 10 on Hansard. I think it is important that it inches. There is only one explanation of is all recorded because the Harbour Board this — the core fill of the inner arm of the have been asking for this since the last breakwater is being lost due to damage century and in the past all the debates below water level in the main structure, have been carefully recorded, so I hope and this is so. Members will, I am sure, members will bear with me today whilst I appreciate that the entire economy of our do give them the full details of this report. Island depends on the harbour system and A member: We will put your name on a the keystone to the harbour system is the plaque. Battery Pier. I would like to say here that the tourist industry in the Isle of Man did Mr. MacDonald: I do not want to be on not get off the ground until Lord Loch a plaque. If I do I will pay for my own. had pushed for the improvement of the (Laughter.) Your Excellency and hon. harbours of the Island, and the real key to members, Douglas breakwater, that is, the that was the Battery Pier. Up till then we Battery Pier, is 100 years old this year. It could not guarantee shipping in and out is a gravity structure founded on rock and of this Island at all. Should this pier break comprises an outer length of solid stone­ up, which is possible in its present condi­ work and an inner length consisting of two tion since no man, not even Tynwald can retaining walls separated by hard core control the elements, Douglas harbour infill with pre-cast concrete deck slabs. would be completely out of action and the The Board’s most recent report, dated 19th entire inner structures— that is Edward Pier September 1979, on the condition of the in particular, — seriously threatened and Battery Pier, carried out by independent even washed away, resulting in the main consultants, confirms the Board’s chief port of the Island being unusuable for a engineer’s observations indicating that considerable number of years and the lower major distress is occurring at the harbour lying sections of Douglas being flooded face nib of the roundhead — this is a on high tides — this is in times of east to technical term, — (laughter) — that south-south-easterly gales — with storm means the part at the end on the inside — conditions. No amount of patching up, with vertical cracking above low water which the Board has been undertaking with­ level and even more serious damage on the in its Budget, can save it for much longer. seaward side of the roundhead due to Your Excellency, if we go back, and I very heavy wave pressure. The loads im­ should go back here before the Battery posed by high storm waves on the outer Pier was built, there was considerable section of the breakwater are such that flooding in the lower Douglas area, as far when considered on its own the factors up as Quarterbridge and even up into Port- of safety against failure are less than would e-Chee meadow. On very high storm con­

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ditions the river backed up and the entire am not being over dramatic, place their area in the low lying land was flooded and, trust in the Manx Government and that trust in fact, if we look at the Villiers Hotel on must be repaid. If I could add here, Your Douglas Promenade and all that area, they Excellency, in discussions recently with the still get flooding seeping through. The shipping operators, the Chairman of one whole of that area in these very bad con­ of our biggest companies said, they are not ditions, east to south-south-east, could be asking Tynwald any more, they are demand­ completely flooded across. Hon. members, ing that something be done urgently. To I am not being pessimistic, we are merely give but a few examples of incidents that bringing to your attention something that have already occurred in this operational we, and many Boards before us, have been year, in the inner harbour — and I hope bringing to Tynwald at Estimates and other everyone will know the vessels I refer to — times for many years. As far back as 1900, Conister and Ben Veen were observed to movement in the harbour face of the inner be rising and falling by as much as four section of the breakwater was discovered, feet when grounding at their berths. Now and tie rods were inserted in the very long these were boats loaded, rising and falling affected zone of the harbour inner wall four feet and banging on the bottom. This through the infill to the seaward wall. can do serious damage to vessels, even Further damage in the form of consider­ in the inner harbour. The salvage barge, able vertical cracking has now been dis­ Moorsman, sustained heavy damage due covered above low water level, at the to heavy swell when grounding. Manx Line’s junction of the inner and outer section, charter vessels — these are the ones which and with severe damage also below the were operating at the Battery Pier — were water line. If I could now quote from unable to berth at the Battery Pier over a Shakespeare, I thought I had better do this period of six days. In one short period because we all know who he is: "There between 9th and 15th February, four pas­ is a tide in the affairs of men” — very suit­ senger vessels had to be diverted to Peel. able this — "which, taken at the flood, The Peveril had to remain at anchor off leads on to fortune.” We are a seafaring Peel for three days with essential supplies, people, we are fully aware of this, and my including perishable goods, on board. Some Board consider, and I hope that Tynwald of these had to be destroyed. The gas will today agree, that the time of the flood tanker Helle Tholstrup was unable to get tide is now. We must move with it or lose into Douglas for four days and was then our fortune and suffer the consequences. taken in despite very risky conditions to Members are aware of the fact, and I am enable the Douglas Gas Light Company to very pleased to be able to report to Tynwald maintain the entire Island’s gas supplies. so that the public are aware of your con­ Although we have got gas installations in cern over the security of their major sea­ other parts of the Island, the whole lot port, that almost every member, if not all, comes through Douglas. Island stocks were have over the past year been to see for down at that time to a period of four days themselves conditions in Douglas outer and other fuel tanker arrivals had to be harbour during easterly to south-south- cancelled. Only recently Her Majesty’s sub­ easterly gales. These conditions, as I have marine Odin — a very good name, is it not said in Tynwald before, are such that no — was forced to leave Douglas Harbour people whose heritage is on the sea can during the night of Sunday/Monday, 30th fail to be appalled at the dangers experi­ September, in a south-easterly force six to enced by our ships, their crews and ves­ seven gale. This vessel was in danger of sels, even when they have braved the completely breaking away from her moor­ storms and have entered the so-called ings despite being secured by anchor harbour. These men and women, and i cables which proved unsatisfactory to hold

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her. Due to waves breaking over the hull of a deep water area at all states of the tide. I the vessel, the crew were unable to go on might add here, Your Excellency, we only deck and it was necessary to cut the sub­ have two areas — Douglas outer harbour marine adrift and let her proceed to sea and Peel breakwater are the only two without her full crew, who had to be col­ places in the Isle of Man where there is lected from the west coast at Peel. The sufficient deep water for vessels to lie in. same evening two minesweepers, Shaving- All the rest, as we all know, dry out. What ton and Poliington, which are over here I am stressing is that the conditions which doing work on behalf of our Board of Agri­ create these incidents have been in exis­ culture and Fisheries and the Manx fishing tence now for over 100 years, but despite industry, were also forced to leave Douglas numerous Commissions, very numerous harbour and ride the storm out at sea. On Commissions, Committees, reports being 1st October a pleasure vessel parted her placed before Tynwald, and in fact as long moorings, and they were good moorings, at ago as 1925 a report was adopted by Tyn­ the buoy in the outer harbour and had to wald and has never been rescinded, the be salvaged. On Saturday, 6th October, the vital improvement to the security of Dou­ Lady of Mann and Manx Maid, in the inte­ glas harbour has not been undertaken and rests of safety, were compelled to leave the grounds for this inaction have in every Douglas harbour at 1930 hours in the teeth case been exclusively financial. However, of an east-south-easterly gale to seek the time has come when my Board must shelter at anchor off the coast of Peel. place upon Tynwald the full responsibility Manx Viking at 2000 hours the same even­ for the consequences should failure to meet ing approached Douglas, but it was decided this challenge result in a disaster. I would to delay docking until daylight on Sunday say here that my Board have found with the morning as the captain considered even if present Tynwald, and the Finance Board, a he could have entered Douglas harbour willingness to see for themselves the situa­ he doubted very much if he could safely tion that our main port is in, so much so have got out again, and he also sought that the Finance Board as a Board accom­ shelter off Peel. The crews of the Peveril, panied the Harbour Board to see for them­ Esso Dover and Ben Varrey, which were selves, in a boat, the visual damage and in the most sheltered part of the inner the deterioration which is occurring at the harbour, were compelled to stand by their Battery Pier. Hon. members, the protection vessels over a high water and low water and security of the Battery Pier itself can­ period throughout that Saturday. A pleasure not solve the problem of Douglas harbour, vessel in Douglas outer harbour was not being, as the Oxford dictionary defines swamped and capsized. Throughout Sun­ a harbour, — "a safe haven for vessels” . day and Monday, 7th and 8th October, the Once again, despite years of reports and gas tanker had to remain at anchor off Commissions recommending to Tynwald Holyhead until conditions in Douglas har­ that action be taken to extend the break­ bour improved, ultimately not docking until water, including one of which, I believe, Tuesday, 9th October. I am sorry that I Sir John Bolton is the only surviving mem­ have to go over these incidents, which are ber today, who submitted a report in 1950 only a few, very few, being experienced by placing their views in support of this be­ the masters, seamen and owners of vesse's fore Tynwald, nothing has happened. I did on whom we depend. I could go on with a come to Tynwald in 1973 with yet another long, long list of such incidents but hope report, commissioned by Tynwald, carried that this short list will suffice to inform you out by the National Ports Council and in and the Manx people of the problems faced great detail explained the long term plans hy the seafarers, even after entering our for the improvement of Douglas harbour. only deep water harbour area, and this is Included in this was the protection of the

Douglas Harbour— Improvement Works — Approved. T214 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

Battery Pier and the extension of the Bat­ been urgently recommended by Home tery Pier. I would remind the Court that Office experts. This will provide us with a these plans were drawn up as a result of drenching system in an emergency which a decision of Executive Council, accepted will drench the entire fuel tank area and by Tynwald, addressed to all Boards for a the fuel tanker berth. Also, we will be able long term plan to be produced, and my to take advantage of this reclamation to Board did produce these plans and there make available a space for a reserve water is no point in planning unless eventually tank which I believe is required for use action is taken on the plans. My Board have by the foam producing fire fighting equip­ only recently discussed our up-dated pro­ ment of the Island’s fire services. In a posals with the Finance Board, with repre­ lighter vein, Your Excellency, and this is, sentative operational staff of all the ship­ I think, to show that we do at times think ping operators, the Fishermen's Associa­ of conservation, in order to ensure that the tion and the directors of the various com­ outstanding and very practical Victorian panies involved and all these people unani­ structure of the Battery Pier lighthouse is mously and strongly support the recom­ preserved we have requested its dismant­ mendations I am making to you today, all ling and re-erection at the end of the new of them stressing the extreme urgency. extension. This is a very, very fine struc­ When first placed before Tynwald in 1973, ture. It is not a very costly thing to dis­ the cost of carrying out this urgent work mantle, we would have to build one was £2.9 million, and I regret to say that anyway, so we will have the one that is the delay in carrying out this work has now now 100 years old and remarkably in ex­ resulted in an escalation in cost to an esti­ cellent condition. It is intended to con­ mated £7.2 million. In up-dating the reports struct the pier extension and the protec­ my Board have taken into consideration the tive works on the modern rubble-mound urgent needs expressed by the Energy principle which has proved so successful Committee of Tynwald for more fuel tank­ in many other ports. It will add another 470 age and are proposing to build into the feet in length to the existing pier. I might base reclaimed area, which is, in fact, the say here, Your Excellency, that all these sound base of the entire structure, the works are the red sections on the model necessary reinforced standing areas for before the members. Everything that is red these tanks. I would like to mention here on that is part of the plan. We have, in dis­ that this work will also ensure that the final cussions with our consultants, carefully movement of all fuel tankers to the outer studied the mass of Douglas harbour plans harbour will be possible. The grounding of prepared by earlier and very successful tankers is now completely contrary to all British engineers; in fact, some of the international port safety regu'ations. Mem­ greatest ever British marine engineers, con­ bers will, of course, appreciate that the structional engineers, and also the more Douglas Gas Light Company and the Shell recent tank research reports which Company have already completed their we obtained. This length of 470 feet breakwater pumping station and removed, has, in model testing, been proved especially the gas tanker, one serious to be the ideal in that it provides cause of concern. We have also taken into the maximum protection at minimum consideration with expert advice the build­ cost and no great improvement results ing into this area of an underground sea­ from any greater length. It had been water pumping station, to provide the neces­ proposed earlier, before the days of highly sary supplies of sea water at all states of scientific model testing, that it shou'd be the tide to enable adequate fire fighting taken out as far as 800 feet, but we have engineering works to be carried out in the found that 470 feet provides the greatest Island’s major fuel storage area, which has protection in Douglas outer harbour, so that

Douglas Harbour— Improvement Works — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T215 is the distance we shall be going providing crest, that is 12J feet above tidal height we get the go ahead. There has always to 12J feet below tidal height. Thus, been the problem of the angle at which at times, water height in the working the breakwater should be built and it has area could be up to 76 feet. This year we been found that the best angle is, in fact, are asking for £150,000 to be made avail­ that which has been consistently recom­ able out of the £500,000 which appeared mended in the past, and clearly shown in in the Book of Estimates, to enable us to the model before you. This breakwater — instruct our consultant engineers, Sir Wil­ and I would like to say here it is a break­ liam Halcrow and Partners — and I might water, it is not a promenade we are build­ say Sir William Halcrow and Partners are ing — should give us the protection we probably the biggest marine engineering seek from the east to south-south-easterly firm of consultants in the world, they cer­ gale force winds and seas, which are the tainly are in Britain by far, with a long most dangerous gale force winds that we record of success and they hold many get. It cannot provide protection from the Queen’s awards for British industry — to lesser storms, north-of-east, which are less proceed with the detailed constructional frequent, of less continuous ferocity and of design work which should be completed by shorter duration. I think here members will the autumn of 1980. On final acceptance appreciate that it is a harbour we are talk­ by the Board, tenders will be called for ing about and we have got to have an en­ from all the best maritime civil engineering trance somewhere. However, in order to firms available and it is expected that work ensure that the masters of our vessels have would commence on 1st January 1981. Your the width of entry they always sought, in­ Excellency, by getting on with the job and cluded in the design work has been the with fair weather and, I hope, industrial removal of a required amount of shale from peace which we in the Island are very for­ the rock formation known as the Conister tunate in having, we would expect it to be Flakes, east-north-east of Conister Rock. completed in three years. I might add here This was discussed with the operational that we have seriously considered, very staff of the shipping companies and recom­ seriously considered, doing the protection mendations made by them accepted. Inci­ reclamation works and the extension in two dentally, the Board have asked the operat­ phases, but as I am sure all members of ing companies to permit their nominated works Boards of Tynwald and, in fact, all ships’ masters to continue to be available members of Tynwald will understand, to to discuss the project throughout its plan­ marshal and prepare all the heavy plant, ning and construction with the Board and machinery and vessels required to carry out its operational engineering staff and con­ this task, remove them and then bring them sultants. Finally, I would like to give mem­ back again is, in itself, an extremely costly bers some information which indicates the exercise. In fact it could amount to, if we conditions under which the construction do this, about 10 per cent, of the total cost will have to proceed. Firstly, the depth of and I would ask Tynwald, and hon. mem­ water in the reclamation area behind Bat­ bers, to have faith in themselves by agree­ tery Pier deepens from nil at the landward ing today that we proceed with the entire end to 28 feet at low water, that is 51 project of making Douglas harbour what feet at high water spring tides at the sea­ generations of Manxmen have sought to ward end; secondly, the Battery Pier exten­ make it — "a station safe for ships when sion will be constucted in water as deep as tempests roar” , before, as one of the Direc­ 40 feet at low water, that is 63 feet at high tors of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Com­ water spring tides; thirdly, wave heights pany said after they had looked at the during inshore gales can be expected to model and we had discussed it with them, be approximately 25 feet from trough to commenting on their own insurers' remarks,

Douglas Harbour — Improvement Works — Approved. T216 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 a disaster occurs of terrifying magnitude. and certainly over the years the Harbour That insurer was not saying something that Board has not changed its tune in the could not happen. This could happen, and necessity for this plan. There is only one my Board are very seriously disturbed and undertaking I would seek from the hon. worried about this. I would also like to say, member of Council. As he in his speech so Your Excellency, that this present situation rightly pointed out, they are making provi­ is placing an extremely heavy load on the sion for fire fighting arrangements in re­ operational staff of the Harbour Board who spect of water in the area at the back. Now have to take the brunt of the results of bad this is something with which I have been weather, have to take the brunt of the ter­ concerned for quite a long time because rible abuse they get for the state the har­ there is not adequate fire-fighting material bour is in, when vessels get in and then available in this area at the moment and are forced out to sea again. I would like it is of very, very great concern to the Fire to say here that I am prepared to answer Services Committee. We have looked at the any questions whatsoever on this. It is not alternatives and it would have cost prob­ the first time I have been to Tynwald with ably £| million to put a sufficient pipe to this. I have now been long enough on the the Battery Pier to deal with fire-fighting Harbour Board to study the problems of the in that area and we have been lookingand Board, and certainly to understand the taking advice from Home Office experts in problems our seafarers are facing and I this respect and we appreciate that when hope Tynwald today will give us its unani­ this job is completed in three years’ time mous support. I would like to say here it will solve our problems, but there is an that I think, apart from a few who rang me interim period when we would wish that up, very, very few members of Tynwald, if some action should be taken that will pro­ any — yes, one or two might not have been vide the necessary water to deal with able to get there — but all members of emergency in the time being and we have Tynwald have themselves come down to the been advised by the inspector from the Board, they have seen the models. I know Home Office that a tank in that area for some rang up to say they were ill and about 250,000 to about 300,000 gallons could not come, others were very busy on would suffice for a reasonable sort of emer­ Government work, but every member of gency and the request I am making to the Tynwald who was available has been down, hon. member is an undertaking that he looked at this, studied it, discussed it with would give us an area where we could, in the Board and so I hope today we will get the meantime, and we reckon we could do from Tynwald what I believe will be a sound this for between £20,000 and £30,000, put and firm decision at last. I beg to move up a tank which would deal with any emer­ Your Excellency. gencies which could occur at the moment. I can assure this hon. Court that here again, Dr. IWann: I beg to second and reserve I do not want to be a scaremonger in any my remarks. way, but Her Majesty’s inspector was very concerned with the situation that exists Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, we are there at the moment and feels that this is grateful, I think, to the hon. member of of the utmost importance. So I seek the Council for giving us this paper and the assurance of the hon. Chairman of the detail and also providing the model for us Harbour Board, in supporting this scheme, here because I think the visual impact cer­ that an area could be made available in the tainly is better for most of us than having interim period where this tank could be in­ it described to us either in the form of a stalled so as to prevent us having to bring plan or anything else. I have no argument water this long distance at a great deal whatever. I assume a Board does its work higher cost. Thank you.

Douglas Harbour— Improvement Works — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T217

Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, I shall be support the consultants, but we would like, very brief. I am supporting the resolution. in turn, for the consultants and the Harbour I think the Chairman of the Harbour Board Board and those people who ask us to and the members of the Harbour Board and have faith in them, really to put -their neck their professional advisers are telling us in on the block and say, if you do this we will this report that if, in fact, we are not pre­ guarantee that all these things that we pared to begin work immediately on the predict if it is not done, will not happen. remedial work, on the reconstruction of The people in the past who built the Bat­ the breakwater and harbour, then in a tery Pier 100 years ago did a very fine job period of very severe storm and high seas for what they were doing at that time and we could have a complete break in the it has stood the test of time. Here we are old breakwater, a destruction, if you like, going to do something very much more of the inner harbour which would bring the going out, 100 yards more is it, over 100 economy of the Isle of Man pretty well to yards, 150 yards more. This is quite a long a halt and at the same time could well way. They should be saying to us, if you bring about serious flooding in South Dou­ do this, by the way, provided you take a glas and, possibly, loss of life. This is some­ little bit of the, I forget how they refer to thing the Court could not accept at all and it, round about the Conister so that you I certainly support this recommendation. make a deep channel there so that -they can get in, the Flakes, that here we will then Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I rise also have a very good job. I would like, person­ to support the recommendation but I would ally, that we should say to the Harbour like to ask the mover, he gave us a very Board, are you absolutely sure that this is interesting paper and we have read some the solution for the job? If it is not, nobody very interesting reports from time to time. is asking you should do a lesser job than Now, in this paper, it gives us the history what is sufficient, but is it the absolute of the harbours, it tells us what the prob­ solution and will it prevent these fears that lem is, it tells us what they intend to do, have been spelled out loud and clear if we but the only message that we get with do not do something. Will this definitely regard to what it will eventually bring into cure it? I think many of us would want to effect, states on page 4 that this break­ know, if this is not the answer, is there water, and it is a breakwater, not a promen­ something further that could be done, or is ade, should give us the protection we seek this the job that is recommended because from the east to south-south-easterly gale the other would be too expensive, and I force winds and seas, it cannot give protec­ would like to see some more of that. tion for so and so. Now that is the only indi­ Having spelled that out I would like to throw cation it states in writing. I would like, myself in the hands of the experts and have personally, when we are being asked to faith in the experts and say that I appre­ spend £7.2 million, that those people who ciate as every other member of the Court, I recommend this say, this is the way defi­ am sure, does, that something has got to nitely, this is going to give us the protection be done. All I am asking for, Your Excel­ we seek and let them spell it out loud and lency, is, if we agree to this, let them spell clear. I have heard it said from some of it out loud and clear that if you spend this the old-timers that even although you do £7.2 million that this is going to do the this, Your Excellency, the problem will be job that we are after. by no means solved. Some would say, oh no, unless you bring something out from Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I somewhere by the lighthouse you will not wonder if I could answer these questions? be able to solve the problem. I think the Court generally are prepared to support The Governor: I feel you should wait till the Harbour Board, they are prepared to the end.

Douglas Harbour— Improvement Works — Approved. T218 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

Sir John Bolton: Your Excellency, I feel that he made the model of this harbour really that as I am approaching the end of available for us all to go down to see it my term of service in Tynwald I should say to find out what It was all about. Now something on this subject as it is exactly 30 £7,200,000 is a great deal of money, but I years ago that I was a member of the Com­ am sure that the real question that is before mittee, as the hon. Chairman has said, en­ this hon. Court today is not whether we gaged on a thorough examination of the can afford to pass this resolution, but state of Douglas harbour at that time and whether we can afford not to do so, cer­ there is no doubt whatever that a scheme tainly so far as the repairs to the Battery very similar to the one that is proposed Pier itself, as it exists, are concerned. We here was recommended by the Committee are all aware, if not we should be, that of which I was a member and of which Douglas harbour is hot as safe as it should the late Deemster Sir Percy Cowley was be. It is stated that numerous Commis­ Chairman. We spent a great deal of time sions over many years have been recom­ in the examination of all the various de­ mending improved works to the outer har­ velopments that we could imagine. Some of bour and, as Sir John Bolton has just said, them were proved to be quite useless. had that advice been taken even 10 or 20 There was one proposal that a loch should years ago, the cost would have been con­ be erected where the swing bridge was, siderably less, in fact, a fraction of what it but it was very soon reported to us that will cost now. Leave it another 10 or 20 even if we put a loch there, the harbour years and if the outer pier is still stand­ would not hold the water in any case, so ing by that time, the cost will make today's that it would be quite useless to contem­ figure look very cheap indeed. As one who plate a loch. ’ All the possibilities were has been very closely connected with the examined. It is a fact that the proposal that Douglas harbour over the past 25 years, I eventually came out of our deliberations can well understand and appreciate all the was one for the building of a mole simi­ points that the hon. Chairman of the Har­ lar to this but a little further out to sea, a bour Board has made in what I consider little nearer the lighthouse rocks, but going was a very excellent report. The hon. out a good deal further than the existing Chairman makes the point that the entire Battery Pier in order to afford protection economy of the Island depends on the har­ to the harbour which it is anticipated this bour system and that the keystone to the will give. I must say that I am whole­ harbour system is the Douglas Battery Pier. heartedly in support of this work being Now this, I believe, is not an exaggera­ done. The only other comment I have is that tion. There are, of course, the two prob­ at the time that we recommended it in lems involving the Battery Pier, firstly, to 1950, I think the estimated cost was just carry out the necessary works to protect over £1 million. We are now faced with a the pier as we have it today and, secondly, situation where roughly the same work is the extension to make the harbour more being done for a little over £7 million and safe. I am satisfied that the first is abso­ I would suggest that if we do not continue lutely necessary and the second part of the with it as we are at present and leave it, scheme could at least be termed to be very then not only may we suffer serious damage desirable. The only matter which does con­ and catastrophe, but it may well be £70 cern me is the effect that this resolution will million. I would support the resolution, have, if any, on the harbour dues, especially Your Excellency. if the whole scheme is to be proceeded Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, first of all I with, and perhaps the hon. Chairman would would like to take the opportunity to thank be good enough to clear up this point and the Chairman of the Harbour Board for the at the same time if he would let us have time that he gave last week and the fact a break-down in the costs between the two

Douglas Harbour — Improvement Works — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T219 schemes. I have personally been involved questions as laymen and those questions with the shipment of goods to the Island, have been admirably answered. I agree with both on the normal goods service provided the hon. member who has just resumed his by the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company seat that perhaps more questions will come. and the new "Ro-Ro” service. Now, in my Yesterday afternoon I stood on Douglas opinion, there is no doubt at all that the “ Ro- Head and envisaged what this would be. Ro” service is the best way to ship goods To Douglas members it is important that and it Is the service of the future. For the we should have the best possible harbour benefit of the whole Island I would hope to in Douglas and I could see that with the see the Isle of Man Steam Packet Com­ ebbing tide, possibly, there was a danger pany operate a "Ro-Ro" service but before of effluent coming into the harbour itself. we can expect any reliable "Ro-Ro” ser­ That will, I am sure, be looked at by the vice, we should provide a safe harbour. This consultants. I know that there are model resolution may be a bitter financial pill to tests going to be undertaken here and it swallow, but it will be no good to put our will prove, possibly, to be a false alarm, heads in the sand. The problems of Dou­ but we have to have the assurance. I think glas harbour are not going to go away. So l it is obligatory on the Board, if possible would say, let us face up to the situation through their consultants, to give us that and give full support to this resolution. assurance and I do hope the hon. Chair­ man will forthwith do it. Mr. Craine: I would entirely agree with what the hon. member who has just re­ Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I con­ sumed his seat has said, but there are just gratulate the Harbour Board as well and, one or two points I would like to be sure like the member for South Douglas, on before I could commit myself to voting obviously a lot of questions have to be for the extension. I will certainly vote for asked. I would like to thank the Chairman the necessary works to protect the Bat­ for giving me two hours of his time last tery Pier. Now this extension is going to week to answer a lot of them. I have a have some effect on the tidal flow in Dou­ question — it is not in relation to this glas bay and I want to know what those resolution, as such, because I believe it effects are likely to be. We all know how, is going to sail through here this afternoon when the Victoria Pier was altered just after — but I am interested in the amount of the war, it swept the sand off Loch Promen­ money that is being spent and the con­ ade and we have also got the outflow of tractors who undertake the work. I would Douglas sewer at the back of Conister. like this for the record. I know the Chair­ Now what is going to happen to this out­ man of the Harbour Board will do every­ flow? Is it going to be deflected into the thing in his power, he has told me he will, harbour or Is there sufficient tidal flow to but I would like it for the record, when the carry it away? Those are the questions I contracts are allocated and when labour is would like to know before I would be pre­ necessary for sub-contracts, that the Manx pared to vote on part (b). contractors will be first of all considered and given every encouragement to con­ Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I think tract for the work, because this is going the Board has got to be congratulated to go through this afternoon, £7£ million, here because this is an object lesson in probably £10 million by the time it is the manner in which a project should be finished, that is another point, I am sure that brought before Tynwald. The Board has we should be in a position where we are repeatedly, both to us as individuals and to saying to people in business on the Island, us as Board representatives, taken us into you will have a bite of this cake when their confidence. We have put to them it comes up because it is a large cake

Douglas Harbour — Improvement Works — Approved. T220 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 as far as the building industry construction needed, in an area that is relatively safe is concerned. I know it is specialist in a and as far away from the town as possible lot of the ways it has got to be done, but and built into it will also be, as the Chair­ there is a lot of work, haulage work, light man mentioned, the means to protect those contracting joinery, all this will have to be installations against disaster. Let us face done. I hope that the local contractors it, if our storage depots were the subject are told now, this afternoon, they will be of a massive fire hazard or they were lost in for a slice of the cake. in a fire, we would be in serious difficulties in the importation of fuel, so that all of Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, in second­ these things are obtained in one basic ing this resolution, I would like to quote project. We are moving forward on many the Manx Statutes of 1610: “ It has been fronts, as the Chairman did mention. This the incessant Care and Regard of the is only one part of the overall plans of im­ Government of this Isle always, when the proving the harbour, some of which have Season of such Fishing falls out . . . to already reached reality, some of which are make open and publick Proclamation to yet to reach reality and this, of course, is the whole Assembly of the Island, to re­ the main one of those, but side by side mind them to be careful in providing their with that we are developing the maritime Boats and Netts to be in Readiness, when­ power of this Island by the additional ship­ soever it pleaseth God to send them that ping legislation, by establishing a shipping Blessing.” We have only been doing what register, and with the production of a safe is the up-to-date realisation of that Statute and protected harbour, the extension of and that is to give open proclamation to “ Ro-Ro” services further than they are at you, the whole assembly of the Island's the moment. These are things where one Government, that the existing structures looks to the future and directly one en­ are in danger and that we should do some­ visages further "Ro-Ro” services in the thing about it. My Chairman, with his usual future one envisages the opening up of new skill, has detailed the way in which this routes. As has been shown in the existing could be done, but I think it is essential “ Ro-Ro” service, if you increase the routes, that in the scheme, the whole scheme, we just the spread of the routes, you increase are not restoring this 100 year old struc­ the traffic without destroying the original ture. We are moving forward and establish­ one and I am certain we should now be ing a new, a fairly new and massive struc­ looking for an even further spread of ture which is going to be in apposition to routes, preferably southward or further the old one and in so doing will protect northwards, but certainly southwards, even the existing one, will restore the existing possibly further afield than the United King­ one and combined they will produce cer­ dom. The present existence of two narrow tain benefits which have not been produced routes to a relatively small area of the before. For instance, there will now be a United Kingdom is not an ideal situation. safe and protected harbour and that means With these increases in routes one can a safe and protected harbour except that naturally expect an increased volume of gap where ships have to come in and that traffic which in other ports has been is the answer to the hon. member for dramatically increased by improving the Council who said, could we have a 100 facilities and this can only help the tourism per cent, guarantee that this will be safe. and manufacturing industries and exports It will be safe where there is a wall around in general. The production of this it, it will not be safe where there is a hole scheme, the realisation of this scheme, in it and that is the simple, common sense is the very basis of the independence of answer. It will also increase the storage this Island as a sea or a maritime state. area for petroleum products, which is badly Unlike other countries, we are not pleading

Douglas Harbour— Improvement Works — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T221 on the doorsteps of Brussels, knocking on terest, and listened with interest, every time the door with a begging bowl, as many anything has come up on Douglas harbour, other ports not very far away from here with the view that ultimately at some time, are doing. We are coming to this Court, probably, we were going to be faced with and it is the independent spirit of this meeting some expenditure of the magni­ nation that surely must accept that we tude which we have today and indeed it have come to the point where we must is, as members have said, a considerable take full responsibility for the funding of a sum of money. I wonder when we do give fundamental Investment of this kind. The it support, and the hon. Chairman tells us finance industry which now plays such a he is building it in a rough form whereby large part in our income must now play its they pour in the sides, or it is rubble part in producing the investment funds mounded or whatever word you used, necessary for these sorts of projects. They rather than making an area for tying up of are large sums but they are sums that we boats immediately alongside. With the good must face up to. If you think of the Battery wishes of this Court, I was fortunate enough Pier with its solid outer walls and its soft a few weeks ago to go to Western Australia core, it is almost like looking at a giant and one of the things again which inter­ hour glass that for 100 years has been ested me there was the discovery at the running away and, as the years have gone industrial site immediately south of Perth, by, it Is running away faster and when the where they had used their ingenuity. A sand eventually leaves the glass it will boat had gone aground and they found collapse. We must be getting near that that it was not worth their while pulling it point and, as the Chairman quotes, the off, so they just used that shell, filled it usual time and tide wait for no man and in full of rubble, put concrete round about it this particular case they are certainly not and it became their harbour and is today going to wait. I second this resolution. the main harbour of an industrial site. One wonders if it would not be possible to buy Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I rise to a tanker, scuttle it at the end of the break­ support the resolution on the Agenda water and fill it full of rock and you would Paper today wholeheartedly and I do so very quickly have a breakwater set up for not as the result of the eloquence today you. However, that is something which I of the Chairman of the Harbour Board but have no doubt at all the Harbour Board as the result of considering this ever since will have already considered, but it is the last time he brought it in front of basically a shell full of rubble and that is Tynwald Court. Members of Tynwald Court exactly what we are going to build, albeit are hard-headed enough when they go with piles driven in to hold it. As to the through their Tynwald Agenda, that they cost of it, and I know this is possibly a have in most cases made their minds up dangerous exercise and I am, as I said at even before they come here on how they the outset, going to give the Harbour Board are going to vote and very, very rarely I my wholehearted support on this, but when would suggest is It that a member actually one does take the cost of it and does a reverses his decision on the floor of this little exercise, put it down in terms which Court. I very well remember the Chairman we every day use, because the man in of the Harbour Board last time in Court the street, I have no doubt, is every bit as when he brought a similar scheme and I frightened of £7,200,000 as I am, but when told him before and I will say it again, it you consider that for every man, woman is probably one of the best speeches which and child on the Isle of Man we could pay I have heard in Tynwald Court and that for that In one year, never mind a borrow­ day I almost changed my mind and from ing period, if every man, woman and child then onwards I have watched with in­ on the Isle of Man gave up 210 packets of

Douglas Harbour— Improvement Works — Approved. T222 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

cigarettes, 25 bottles of whisky, 90 gallons round about the butt of the old red pier, of petrol or, in fact, a set of tyres for his this is Douglas, with a river coming down, car and that Is all. When you consider it and so you are building out in what is In those terms as against the economic open sea, certainly when you get winds well-being of the Isle of Man for many and seas running from the south-south- years to come, it surely must be one of east and round to east. Regarding the hole, our major and worthwhile schemes. the entrance to the harbour, quite rightly, as my Vice-Chairman and colleague says, Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, if I you have got to have an opening some­ could first of all just generally reply, I am where to get the boats in and if you look very pleased indeed, naturally, that Tyn­ at Douglas harbour, this is the only way wald Court today has taken this nettle in to protect Douglas from the most vicious, its grasp and it would appear is prepared long period storms the Irish Sea gets. to go ahead now and do the work which North-easterly gales, as I said, are not of we have been waiting to do for 100 years. so long a period, they are not so vicious, I might say, Your Excellency, that we have though they will occur, and naturally we discussed this with everybody we could cannot protect Douglas from the north­ think of involved in shipping — the opera­ east wind, but they are fewer in the year tors and, I might say here also, the Works and they are not of such long duration. Committee of the Douglas Corporation. The But it certainly will give greater protection. full Committee have met us and discussed We have seen this on the models, we have the whole thing with us because it was had masters down from the Packet Com­ important to Douglas, because the port Is pany looking at the original model which on the edge of Douglas although not a was just a layout model, and the effects it part of Douglas, and so it was very im­ will have. It means, In fact — if l could portant to us that the Douglas Town point this out from the model — you can Council should be fully In the picture and have a boat in an easterly gale to a south- I would say this, they all turned up. They south-easterly gale lying on the outside, were most interested, spent a long time that is the north side, of Victoria Pier, and with us and fully supported us 100 per she would still be able to retain her posi­ cent. Somebody said, well they are not tion. The south side of Victoria would be paying for it. Well, of course, they are completely protected, you would get very paying for it, because some of the biggest little swell at all on these particular angles taxpayers in the Isle of Man are resident of wind— very, very little. Edward Pier would in Douglas and so It is the people of be protected and the inner harbour would Douglas who will be contributing a very be protected from the long swell which large proportion of the cost of this break­ runs at the moment and which they get water. I think, Your Excellency, if I could to the end of the Battery Pier, the nib end, first of all say this, or secondly say this, and the waves gaily roll round it and that we have looked at all the various straight into the outer harbour. This is the methods of doing this. One of the prob­ vicious part of Douglas harbour, there is lems with Douglas is, as the hon. member nothing to stop that wave, and in the past, for Ramsey said to me, I think it was an of course, with having a smooth-faced wall old master mariner who once said to him, at the back of the Battery Pier the sea you have not got a port, you have just got tends to run along it, building up as it is holes in the rocks, and Douglas, of course, running until by the time it gets to the end is virtually that. You have the rock on of the Battery Pier and curls round and Douglas Head and then you have a long rolls, the top wave is then swept straight strip of sand with shale rock and very soft into the harbour. This breakwater is being shale rock running out in fingers from built of huge blocks. The design, the exact

Douglas Harbour— Improvement Works — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T223 size and design of these blocks will have to flannelling! (Laughter.) I am not flannelling be carefully worked out. They will be very because I am not prone to flannel, but he large blocks, probably up to and maybe was probably the greatest Governor we had more than 22 tonnes weight each. This is ever had. Everything in the Isle of Man, the rubble mound we are talking about — and I have said this before, harbours, very, very big blocks of either stone or roads, he did the lot, and he got the concrete, reinforced concrete. Now, coming British taxpayer to pay for the lot, which along, the sea is running in from that far was remarkable. (Laughter.) I might say end, the south side of the pier, running here, as members should realise this, I along the back of the pier, but it will be think it is important. People criticise the running over a rubble-faced mound, break­ British taxpayer and the British Govern­ ing up as it is going, and at the end of ment, but apart from the widening of that pier you will find, with that bulbous Victoria, the extension of the Red Pier into end pushed out again into the northern Edward, the viaduct in Douglas harbour, the stream. So the actual wave formation will British taxpayer has paid for every harbour disappear and be broken up and will not in the Isle of Man. The Manx were not enter the harbour at all. I cannot guarantee paying tax when these were built. It was 100 per cent, because If we get a typhoon- the Admiralty and the British taxpayer who force gale or a hurricane-force gale you will footed the bill. And so today we are build­ get movement In the inner harbour; even ing on what other people gave us. People the Lord himself could not guarantee that, might argue, oh, they were collecting dues, and I certainly cannot, I am not the Lord! but the amount of dues they were collecting (Laughter.) There is no doubt about it, on bags of sugar and the odd bottle of all the masters, every master we have rum that the Mohicans were drinking in spoken to apart from one, I believe, who the Isle of Man at that time was not pro­ was slightly hesitant over this, all the old ducing much cash. (Laughter.) If I can now masters of the Packet Company in 1925, answer individual questions, and I think I the Marine Superintendent then, and the should. The hon. member for Glenfaba, masters then said that they supported this Mr. Anderson — yes, we will discuss ex­ scheme, and those were in the days when actly what you want down there. I did there were no bow thrusts, when vesse's actually say in my notes that we had did not have all the very fine control sys­ appreciated that this was required, and we tems they have got today, and the ships will discuss this with you, and within limits, masters said then, yes, this will give us at there may be limits, I do not know but I least a safe harbour with no greater diffi­ hope not, we will help you to put there culty getting in. They again said this, later what the fire chiefs require. I thank you the late Captain Crawford Kinley said this. very much for your support. Mr. George He saw no problems once this was organ­ Swales, the hon. member for Ramsey — ised in getting a boat into Douglas harbour well, Mr. Swales has always supported any­ and being safe once it has got in. But thing to do with harbours that is sensible, because we ourselves had doubts we and this is why I knew today before he decided to break away, or blast away, the even opened his mouth he would be sup­ shale which peaks to about three fathoms, porting it because he has seen the har­ just east-north-east of Conister. This is quite bours, he has lived all his life here like a long way away from the sewer and I will most of us, he has seen what happens at come to that in answering the individual sea and he has read his history of the members’ questions. My Board feels this Isle of Man. I thank you. Mr. Jack Nivison, is a move again just at it was a move in the hon. member of Council — well, the the days of Lord Loch, a great Governor, conditions, as I say, I could not guarantee possibly apart from yourself, sir.' I am not; It any more than you could guarantee an

Douglas Harbour — Improvement Works — Approved. T224 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

airfield facility would be 100 per cent., but grant and not meet the loan charges. But, as near as we can make it we will make It however, there Is not much point in pass­ 100 per cent., but not from north-easterly ing the loan charges on to us because we winds. You did mention the old-timers. I will never be able to meet them, and I may might say here, the reason that the break­ as well be frank about it. In the future we water is no longer in Port Erin was because may be able to, when things all rise con­ somebody listened to the old-timers, siderably we might be able to, but I cer­ switched the angle of the pier, and in the tainly could not face £1 m illion a year or first gale it disappeared. When they had thereabouts as a loan charge and be the big inquiry afterwards and discussed it expected to pay it off. We will try our best they discovered had they built it as they to increase income from the sea and this wanted to build it, the engineers, it would is why, as my colleague said, we are en­ have been there today. So old-timers do couraging all things maritime, and I can not necessarily always have the right say this openly today, we are well ahead answers. The channel in I did mention. of other places, other islands who are There is that channel in from the north­ looking at shipping. We are way ahead of east. Sir John Bolton, the hon. member of them. In fact, I was at a meeting recently Council — I would thank him very much with the British Ports Consultative Commit­ for his support because I think his sup­ tee and our colleagues from other islands port weighs a lot in this Court. Here he is further south were there, and they were in his final days, as he said, but I am very rather amazed to find that we hoped by 1 st pleased that he and his Committee in 1950 April next year to have our shipping regis­ came to the same conclusions as this ter in being. I can also say in the Court Board came to, that something has got to today that the requests from shippers are be done, and the sooner it is done the very considerable Indeed. They are very better. The hon. member for Middle, Mr. much interested in the Isle of Man. They Callin — I would thank him as a person are prepared, the ones that have spoken who sees the port operating and has seen to us up to now, to carry out all the con­ it nearly all his working life. He knows what ditions of British shipping but they want goes on down there, he has seen the storms their companies based here, and we will in the outer harbour, and so his support is encourage them as much as we possibly very, very valuable to my Board. With regard can because this is very big money. I to harbour dues, well now, I agree this is hope they will pay for a lot of the work a problem. You see, had we been mem­ that we are doing today so it will not all bers of the European Economic Community be borne by our local coastal trade. I will I could have gaily trouped along to be coming later today, of course, but I had Brussels and collected in the region of better not say now what I have got to say 80 per cent, as a grant because this is an later on harbour dues, but you can rest infra-structure port. I see my colleagues in assured that it will not be the cost of the England picking up handouts left, right and harbour dues that will put fares up, they centre; in fact, so much that at times they will be a peanut compared with how the are getting over 100 per cent., and this cost of fares could Increase, a very, very was discovered recently and they had to small amount, but I will try my best to hold pay something back. So we have to find them down. He did say the Isle of Man it, and we claim we are independent, we Steam Packet, possibly, are going into have got to find the money. I only wish — ''Ro-Ro", and I do not think I am letting and of course It is a matter for Finance anything out, of course the Isle of Man Board, not for my Board — we could get, Steam Packet Company are looking at “ Ro- as the parish of Lezayre are getting for Ro” , of course they are planning. We have their little bit of the Vollan, 100 per cent. said all along we will work with them as

Douglas Harbour — Improvement Works — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T225

closely as we possibly can to ensure that day. But I can say that as this Battery Pier our oldest company does get into this is, I believe, in South Douglas, I am glad field because we have always thought, to be able to tell them today of everything since 1971, 1972, the future is in this sort we are doing. There are no politics in this of service, and there is no doubt about — this is basic common sense. I am as it. I think they know, we know, that with­ much a nationalist as anybody, but I have out this breakwater and without the re­ to temper my nationalism with common inforcing of the Battery Pier it is not easy sense, and that is what this Is a'l about, to run a "Ro-Ro" service in Douglas har­ commonsense, something we have been bour. And remember, there was no talk asking for for 100 years. With regard to of "Ro-Ro" when we first went forward in the Douglas sewer, I have discussed this 1972 with our plan. There was no other with the people responsible, the Douglas shipping company, we did not know any­ Works Committee. They accept what we body, there was not such a thing, we were are doing, it will not affect their sewer. The then thinking of the Isle of Man Steam tidal flows have been checked, they have Packet Company, and that Is all my Board been checked now for 100 years, and all ever thought about until another company the checks have revealed that this should came into being and, naturally, we gave have no effect whatsoever on tidal move­ them what support we could. I wou'd like to ment. Tides in Douglas are funny. You get say here a rather interesting thing, that a nine-hour movement in one direction and what everybody calls the "Ro-Ro” road, only a three-hour movement in the other, because it sounds probably nice and easy and the bulk of it is not sweeping the sand to say, is, in fact, as members I think have all the way as people may think, nor seen on the original plans of 1972, building the sand all up, and it will remain merely a section of the reclaimed area, a pretty constant, of that I am quite con­ standage area for cars and vehicles to be vinced. After we have done the model test, marshalled on prior to feeding on to both if you like, well then, yes, you can come Victoria and Edward Piers. Eventually in with us to see the model tests where you time we may get this. I think this is essen­ will see this. But the Douglas Corporation tial too because Douglas is becoming very have listened to our engineers, they have crowded, especially round that end of listened to our advisers, and they them­ Douglas In the holiday season, where even selves who are responsible for Douglas with the present side-loading car ferries you have said they accept this. I would like can get four boats working at a time within also to thank Mr. Kermeen, the hon. mem­ half-an-hour, and you will have then up to ber for Douglas West, member of Finance 400 cars waiting to move In or out, and Board, and I would here like to thank the this is a large conglomeration of motor Finance Board who, I believe, have been cars. So eventually something will have to watching this development over the past be done about that. The hon. member for few years, and I only hope have been South Douglas, Mr. Peter Craine — well, I building up their poacher’s pocket or their am very sorry that Mr. Craine did pot of gold to make certain there is at not come down to the Board to see the least something there and they have not model and to discuss his queries with the invested it all out of the Isle of Man at Board. I can say today that every member greater interest rates! I hope some of it of Tynwald came down apart from those will still be here. Thank you very much. that rang up, who were sick or who were Mr. Delaney, the hon. member for Douglas committed to a very important engagement, East — well; Mr. Delaney has a'ways sup­ but Mn Craine did not come down. I was ported anything for Douglas, that is who he very worried about this, and then I heard represents, and once again today he is he was against it on Manx Radio yester­ supporting this. I can give him a guarantee

Douglas Harbour— Improvement Works — Approved. T226 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 that as far as possible local staff and local The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. mem­ firms will be given as much work as pos­ bers? sible. Our consultants will look at that. But I might add here, of course, this type It was agreed. of work today is not a matter of wheel­ barrows and picks and shovels, it is a mass of machinery, it is machinery that is used today. But as far as we can do it HARBOUR DUES AND TOLLS — we will give this work to local people. INCREASES — APPROVED. Naturally I expected my colleague and Vice-Chairman to support this, and I would The Governor: Item No. 10. The Chair­ thank him very much for his remarks. man of the Isle of Man Harbour Board. Might I say here, my other colleague, Mr. Eddie Lowey, is very sorry he is not here Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I beg today. He did ring me up and he said, "If to move: I need to come in I will come in.” The doctors had told him not to come in be­ WHEREAS by virtue of Section 55 of the cause his eye is not all that good at the Harbours (Isle of Man) Act 1961 as amen­ moment, it is improving, and I said, “Well, ded by Section 1 of the Harbours (Isle of Edward, I do not think we will need you Man) Act 1969 the Isle of Man Harbour today because I think Tynwald Court has Board may with the approval of Tynwald too much common sense to require your determine and change the rates of harbour presence.” This will be fully justified by dues. what I said, and so I can ring him up tonight and say, I hope, that Tynwald AND WHEREAS the Board have deter­ agrees. (Interruption and laughter.) If I mined that with effect from the first day of could also thank the hon. member for January 1980 there shall be charged Rushen, Mr. Cringle. I did look at this harbour dues at the rates signified in the business of a boat, of finding an old Greek Schedule to this Resolution. tanker and filling it up with rubble and dumping it, but it does not always work. IT IS RESOLVED that the rates of dues It will work if you have got a nice sandy and tolls signified in the Schedule to this beach and a nice clean sea run, but it Resolution are hereby approved for intro­ will not work where you have rock and duction on 1st January 1980. rock formation, and where you have got the terribly vicious seas on the end of a SCHEDULE high cliff. If you are on a coastline you can do this. I have seen this done in many TONNAGE DUES ports. But I remember them trying this once, I think it was in the Canary Islands, 1. and it sat there for about a month until the (1) For every vessel (except as storms came, and then it disappeared hereinafter provided) enter­ somewhere else and rolled over on its ing a harbour, per ton side. It cost them more, I believe, at the (GRT) ...... 12.92p time cutting it all up and getting it out of but if applicable to any the way to build a proper breakwater. So I vessel licensed to carry 500 will put my trust in the proven system of or more passengers, per development, and I think this is the system, ton (GRT) ...... 6.65p Your Excellency and hon. members, that will give us what we are all seeking. I beg Minimum charge for each to move. entry ...... £5.50

Harbour Dues and Tolls — Increases— Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T227

(2) For every vessel windbound, (9) For every fishing vessel or calling for repairs or sail­ which has paid such annual ing orders, stores for crew, dues, after the expiration of oil or bunker coal, and not the year in respect of which breaking bulk, for each time the said dues have been of entrance, per ton (GRT) 5.63p paid, laid up or lying in a Minimum charge for each harbour longer than one entry ...... £5.50 month per ton (GRT) ...... 8.2p and for each subsequent (3) For every vessel (other than period of three months or a fishing vessel, Manx part thereof, per ton (GRT) 8.2p pleasure vessel or visiting Minimum charge per period pleasure vessel as herein­ of three months ...... £5.00 after provided) laid up or lying up in a harbour longer DUES (PLEASURE VESSELS) than fourteen days, per ton (GRT) ...... 11p (10) For every Manx vessel under 15 feet overall length, laid and upon the expiration of up or lying or using a each subsequent period of harbour for the year or part one month, per ton (GRT) 11p of the year ...... £4.26 (4) For every fishing vessel of (11) For every Manx vessel 15 not more than 20 tons feet or over but under 30 feet (GRT) licensed by the overall length, laid up or Board to ply for hire as a Iving in or using a harbour, pleasure boat engaged as a for the year or part of the fishing vessel during a por­ year, per unit ...... 56.4p tion of the year only, for the year or any portion of the (12) For every Manx vessel 30 year ...... £18.70 feet or over but under 45 feet overall length, laid up or (5) For every fishing vessel of lying in or using a harbour, not more than 20 tons for the year or part of the (GRT) for the year or any year, per unit ...... 83.9p portion of the year ...... £27.97 (13) For every Manx vessel 45 (6) For every fishing vessel feet or over overall length, more than 20 tons (GRT), laid up or lying in or using a and not exceeding 35 tons harbour, for the year or part (GRT) for the year or any of the year, per unit ...... £1.09 portion of the year ...... £37.31 In sub-paragraphs (10) to (7) For every fishing vessel ex­ (13) inclusive of this para­ ceeding 35 tons (GRT), and graph the term ‘Manx Vessel' not exceeding 65 tons means a pleasure vessel (GRT), for the year or any belonging to a person ordi­ portion of the year ...... £46.63 narily resident in the Isle of Man. (8) For every fishing vessel ex­ ceeding 65 tons (GRT), for (14) For every visiting vessel the year or any portion of under 25 feet overall length the year ...... £77.62 moored alongside piers or

Harbour Dues and Tolls— Increases — Approved. T228 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

breakwaters or berthed in an as applied to pleasure ves­ inner harbour for more than sels shall be determined by one hour in any day, per addition together the length week or part thereof ...... £2.21 in feet and the breadth in feet of such vessel, each (15) For every visiting vessel 25 foot of such total to be re­ feet overall length and over garded as one unit. The moored alongside piers or length shall be measured breakwaters or berthed in an from the foreside of the inner harbour for more than stern to the afterside of the one hour in any day, per sternpost on the deck. The week or part thereof, per breadth shall be measured unit ...... 17.9p at deck level at the widest (16) For every visiting vessel part excluding rubbing anchored or moored to a strakes or belting and where buoy in a harbour for more cradles are used the overall than one hour in any day, breadth of the cradle shall per week or part thereof, per be substituted for the unit ...... 11 p breadth of the vessel pro­ vided that where the total in­ (17) Where a visiting vessel has cludes a fraction of a foot used the harbours on more the same shall be counted than 28 days in any year as one foot unless the frac­ year then thereafter shall be tion be less than one half charged the same charges in which case it shall be dis­ as for a Manx vessel with, regarded. in addition, a charge per year of ...... £54.40 Dues chargeable under sub- paragraphs 1(4) to (13) or, if it be greater, a charge will be subject to a discount per unit of ...... £2.21 of 10% of the total amount In sub-paragraphs (14) to II paid before 31st March, (17) inclusive of this para­ 1980. graph, the term 'Visiting Vessel' means a pleasure 2. GOODS DUES vessel belonging to or oper­ ated by a person who is not In addition to charges ordinarily resident in the Isle levied under paragraph 1 of Man. above, the following dues Any Manx Vessel or Visiting shall be payable. Vessel which is on occasion (1) On all goods landed, ship­ used for business purposes, ped or transhipped any­ in addition to the charges where in the Isle of Man specified above, shall on except as provided for in such occasions be charged sub-paragraphs (2), (3), with the tonnage, goods and (4), (5) and (6) below per passenger dues stated in tonne ...... 44p paragraphs 1, 2 and 3. In sub-paragraphs (11), (2) In respect of each scooter, (12), (13), (15), (16) and motor cycle or motor cycle (17) of this paragraph 'Unit’ combination ...... 32.82p

Harbour Dues and Tolls-— Increases — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T229

(3) In respect of each private goes upon the roof of the m otor car ...... 88.37p Verandah at Victoria Pier ... 4p

(4) In respect of each commer­ except that for any child cial vehicle (including load under 15 years of age ...... 1p other than herring as speci­ REGULATIONS RELATING TO DUES fied in paragraph 2(6)) (a) up to two tonnes capa­ (1) A fishing vessel means a city ...... £2.05 vessel exclusively or chiefly (b) exceeding two tonnes engaged in sea fishing and capacity ...... £5.30 registered by the Depart­ ment of Customs and Excise. (5) On all herring, white fish, shell fish, molluscs and crus­ (2) In the case of fishing taceans landed from a fish­ vessels, or other vessels ing vessel on goods due cal­ having paid a yearly due, culated on and deductible dues payable shall be con­ from the gross value of such sidered as payable for all catch at first purchase and the harbours vested in the being at the rate thereof of Board. ONE PER CENT (3) The term 'vessel' includes a (6) On all fresh iced or cured ship, boat or other vessel herring (excluding kippers) of any description however shipped or transhipped by propelled. or into another vessel, per (4) 'Day' includes a part of a unit of 100 kilos (10 units day in excess of six hours. per tonne) (a) during the period 1st (5) 'Month' shall include part of August to 30th Novem­ a month. ber in any year ...... 50p (6) ‘Year1 means the period (b) at all other times ...... 4.04p from and including the first day of January in any year 3. PASSENGER DUES to and including the thirty- first day of December in the (1) In addition to charges under paragraph 1 above in re­ same year. spect ol each passenger (7) ‘Harbour’ includes any of the embarked or disembarked... 21.82p harbours in the Isle of Man. and being the holder of a Section 64 of the Harbours day excursion ticket ...... 14.57p (Isle of Man) Act 1961 pro­ (2) In respect of any passenger vides — embarked or disembarked Subject to the provisions but if carried for a distance of this Act tonnage dues, of less than ten nautical goods dues and passen­ miles ...... 6.32 p ger dues shall be pay­ able by the Master or 4. TOLLS owner ol the vessel in re­ In respect of each person spect of which such dues for each occasion he uses or are charged, except in re-

Harbour Dues and Tolls — Increases — Approved. T230 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

sped of fish landed from AUDITORS — APPOINTMENT OF any vessel within the limits PANNELL FITZPATRICK AND COMPANY of any harbour, when such dues shall be payable by the The Governor: Item No. 12. The Vice- first purchaser of these fish Chairman of the Finance Board. (whether such purchaser is acting on his own behalf or Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I beg to as agent for some other move: person) from the Master or owner of the vessel from (1) That Messrs. Pannell Fitzpatrick & which the fish is landed. Company be appointed to audit the accounts of the bodies named in the A member: I beg to second. Schedule to the Finance Board memoran­ dum of 7th November 1979 for 1976/77 and The Governor: Is It agreed, hon. mem 1977/78 at the fees detailed opposite their bers? names in column 3 and column 4 of the said Schedule. It was agreed. (2) That Messrs. Pannell Fitzpatrick & Company be appointed to audit the ac­ counts of the bodies named in the said FORMER ENGINE SHED, PEEL Schedule for 1978/79 at a fee to be nego­ RAILWAY STATION — PURCHASE tiated at a later date. — APPROVED. (3) That Messrs. Pannell Fitzpatrick & The Governor: Item No. 11. The Chair­ Company be appointed to audit the ac­ man of the Isle of Man Harbour Board. counts of the Millennium Public Lottery at a fee to be negotiated at a later date. Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I beg to move: A member: I beg to second.

That Tynwald— The Governor: Is it agreed, hon. mem­ bers? (a) approves of the Harbour Board acquiring from the Government It was agreed. Property Trustees the former engine shed at Peel railway station for the sum of £10,000; PENSIONERS’ BONUS PAYMENTS (b) authorises the Government Treasurer — APPROVED. to expend during the year ending 31st March 1980 from Capital Transactions The Governor: Item No. 13, the Chair­ Account an amount not exceeding man of the Isle of Man Board of Social £10,000 in respect of this purchase. Security.

A member: I beg to second. Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I beg to move: The Governor: Is it agreed, hon. mem­ bers? That Tynwald authorises the Isle ol Man Board of Social Security during the month It was agreed. of December 1979 to make lump sum pay­

Former Engine Shed, Peel Railway Station — Purchase — Approved. — Auditors — Appointment of Pannell Fitzpatrick and Company. — Pensioners’ Bonus Payments — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T231 ments not exceeding £10 each to pen­ That the Jurors Order 1979 made by His sioners and certain other persons, in ac­ Excellency the Lieutenant Governor on 15th cordance with the Pensioners' Bonus Pay­ October 1979 under section 34 of the Jury ments Scheme 1979 made by the Board on Act 1960 be and the same is hereby ap­ the 2nd November 1979. proved.

A member: I beg to second. A member: I beg to second.

The Governor: Is It agreed, hon. mem­ The Governor: Is it agreed, hon. mem­ bers? bers?

It was agreed. It was agreed.

CATHEDRAL CHURCH BILL — REPORT CORONER'S JURY RULES 1979 OF ECCLESIASTICAL COMMITTEE — APPROVED. OF TYNWALD — APPROVED. The Governor: Item No. 16. The learned The Governor: Item No. 14. The Chair­ Attorney-General. man of the Ecclesiastical Committee. The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I beg to I beg to move:— move: That the Coroner's Jury Rules 1979 made (1) That in accordance with Standing by His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor Order 162(3) the provisions of Standing on 15th October 1979 under section 32 of Order 162(1) be waived to enable the fol­ the Coroners of Inquests Act 1961 be and lowing resolution to be considered. the same are hereby approved.

(2) That the Report of the Ecclesiastical A member: I beg to second. Committee of Tynwald on the Cathedral Church Bill be and the same Is hereby The Governor: Is it agreed, hon. mem- approved. mers?

A member: I beg to second. It was agreed.

The Governor: Is it agreed, hon. mem­ bers? RULES OF THE HIGH COURT OF It was agreed. JUSTICE 1979 — APPROVED.

The Governor: Item No. 17. The learned Attorney-General. JURORS ORDER 1979 — APPROVED. The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I The Governor: Item No. 15. The learned beg to move:— Attorney-General. That the Rules of the High Court of Jus­ The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I tice 1979 made by Their Honours the First beg to move: Deemster and Clerk of the Rolls and the

Cathedral Church Bill — Report of Ecclesiastical Committee of. Tynwald — Approved. Jurors Order 1979 — Approved. — Coroner’s Jury Rules 1979 — Approved. — Rules of the High Court of Justice 1979 — Approved. T232 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

Second Deemster in exercise of the powers The main purpose of the scheme is to conferred upon them by the Governor’s avert and, we hope, reverse the decline of Financial and Judicial Functions (Transfer) the breeding of beef cattle, and at the same Act 1976 be and the same are hereby ap­ time encourage the production of quality proved. animals by restricting the headage payment only to cattle attaining high quality stand­ A member: I beg to second. ards. In order to ensure that they conform to such standards they will be graded by a The Governor: Is it agreed, hon. mem­ completely independent person, namely the bers? Government grader who is under the con­ trol of Government Office, the payment to It was agreed. be made in respect of eligible cattle slaughtered on the Island, and this should therefore help to ensure a continuity of MISUSE OF DRUGS (SAFE CUSTODY) quality meat on the Island, and at the same REGULATIONS 1973 (APPLICATION) time maintain and, we hope, increase ORDER 1979 — APPROVED. employment at our local abattoir where about 40 people are employed. The Governor: Item No. 18. Dr. Mann. During the past five years there has been a serious decline in Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I beg to the beef breeding herds, the figures for move:— the present year being 5,846 compared with 9,179 in 1974, a decline of 36 per That the Misuse of Drugs (Safe Custody) cent. It is clear that action is required to Regulations 1973 (Application) Order 1979 arrest this quite a'arming trend, but we made by His Excellency the Lieutenant Gov­ regard it as essential that encouragement ernor on 15th October 1979 be and the should only be given to animals which same is hereby approved. meet prescribed quality standards. The scheme is estimated to cost £11,000 during A member: I beg to second. the current year, which can come out from The Governor: Is it agreed, hon. mem­ within the Board’s estimates. It has re­ bers? ceived the support of the Finance Board and in a full year it is estimated to cost It was agreed. £60,000. The scheme is directed towards reviving confidence in this sector of the industry and encouraging the production of quality cattle which will be in the interests CATTLE QUALITY (HEADAGE PAYMENT) of both producer and consumer alike. I beg SCHEME 1979 — APPROVED. to move.

The Governor: Item No. 19. The Chair­ Mr. Walker: I beg to second. man of the Isle of Man Board of Agricul­ ture and Fisheries. Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, I support Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, I beg to this resolution and the explanatory note move:— that goes with it. But the one query I have is this, that this £10 will go to all the Fat- That the Cattle Quality (Headage Pay­ stock members for the various things that ment) Scheme 1979 made by the Isle of it says it goes to, and I accept all that. It Man Board of Agriculture and Fisheries be will not go, of course, to the breakaway and the same is hereby approved. co-operative people because they will be

Misuse of Drugs (Safe Custody) Regulations 1973 (Application) Order 1979—Approved. — Cattle Quality (Headage Payment) Scheme 1979 — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T233

exporting their cattle live to other markets, tion just would not wear it although there that is statement two. And one might say are people outside the Association, they that that is all right. But not all this meat would not wear it. They believe in equality, will be consumed in the home market. I absolute equality in this, especially if you would presume that perhaps 50 per cent, are both being asked to do the same will be, and possibly 50 per cent, exported, thing. I am convinced the Board are not I do not know, I cannot answer that, so encouraging the Co-operative to produce that is the query. It may be 60 per cent, lower quality animals. Surely they have and 40 per cent. And if, in fact, it is a got to be encouraged too. I am not hsppy breakdown like that, at fifty-fifty, that is at all about this one. 50 per cent, consumed in the home market and 50 per cent, exported, if that is so, I Mr. Creer: Your Excellency, I am going am not saying it is, l am going to ask a to support this wholeheartedly because I question here, then we would not be quite think this is something we want in the playing ball with the Co-operative, would Island. At the present time in the Island we, because they are exporting the whole the best cattle are leaving. What is hap­ and getting nothing, but if they are export­ pening at the present time is that the best ing half of this then I would like to think cattle are exported, the rubbish is sent to the Board of Agriculture would have a the abattoir, to the Fatstock Marketing look at a scheme that would be fair to Association here, and that is what is hap­ them also, if, in fact, what I am asking is pening at the present time. If we want to the answer to it, I do not know. increase the meat for our customers it has got to be this way. But at the present time Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I am the best cattle are going out of the Island not too happy about this. I do not believe and the rubbish is getting sent to the abat­ in giving schemes to improve quality only toir. I fully support this. to those who work through somebody’s system. I think it is very important if the Mr. Craine: Your Excellency, I would like people in the Co-operative improve their to say exactly what the hon. member has animals they likewise should get £10, other­ said. This is designed to keep quality cattle wise what is the £10 for? Is this £10 to get on the Island for the benefit of the Island. people to improve the quality of their (Interruption.) Well, of course it is to im­ beast? That being so, every man in the prove it, but it is to keep top quality Isle of Man must be treated equally, I cattle on the Island for the benefit of Manx would have thought. All people must be consumers. Why we should pay £10 a head treated equally. If I am a farmer and I do for a United Kingdom consumer is quite not want to join some scheme, and I am beyond me. producing top quality animals, surely, in all fairness, I should be entitled to the Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, I must same contribution from the taxpayer as the admit that in the past I have tended to man who is working through somebody regard some of these schemes with a cer­ else’s scheme. It seems completely wrong tain amount of what I would regard as justi­ to me to treat some as fish and some as fiable scepticism. On the other hand, we fowl. This, to me, is not on. It would be must go back to base and say to ourselves, like me saying in the Harbour Board to why is it that the members of this Co­ fishermen, if you use this sort of thing that operative organisation should wish to go we have set up, or we are involved in, we to the exoense of exporting cattle on the will give you a landing subsidy of so much, hoof to England once they find that the and then say to another fisherman, if you abattoir facilities are not available to them? want to export your fish direct you are They do not do it because they have any getting nothing. The Fishermen’s Associa­ sense of charitableness to the wholesale

Cattle Quality (Headage Payment) Scheme 1979 — Approved. T234 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

meat market in Britain. They do it, pre­ speaks in reply to this, in order to allay sumably, because they get a better price any misgivings we have got, to say pre­ in Britain than they would get here. Be­ cisely what the relationship has been cause of the restricted nature of the between the Co-operative and the Butchers’ market here it may be that the prices which Association. I know that these running you get in the Isle of Man are less high battles have been carrying on for years, than you get in England and, therefore, but I would not ever like to think that their the object, surely, of this £10 subsidy is pleas have been entirely disregarded. But I to compensate to some extent for the fact believe, from my point of view at any rate, that prices here are not as high as they and I am quite certain that my colleague are in England. This long rigmarole is in will agree from Finance Board’s point of order to suggest to you that people who view, we saw in this scheme a method of have decided to export their cattle to doing the very things that have been ex­ Britain because they get a better price, pressed in this Court this afternoon, pre­ surely do not require to be subsidised. serving and enhancing the good quality of Providing they maintain and elevate their the meat on the Manx market I believe that own standard of quality in the market in as long as we have got this organisation, Britain they will get their reward in the and we are not envisaging legislation to form of a higher price for cattle once it alter the organisation in any way, then I goes to the market. It would seem to me think we have got to support the ideas that whilst it is easy to suggest that the which have been brought forward for a Co-operative are being picked on, as it scheme such as this headage scheme. were, nevertheless, the Co-operative have elected that they will deal outside Britain because they get better prices. They can­ Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, it is with not surely, therefore, complain if those who some difficulty that I must bring into the have decided to stay within the Island are debate two documents. I am sorry that the to some extent compensated for the fact people who have written to us, the Isle of that Manx prices tend to be lower than Man Butchers' Association and the Island the prices in the United Kingdom whole­ Farmers’ Co-operative Society Limited, sale meat markets. have not availed themselves of the pro­ cedure of this Court to present Memorials. Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I would just It is an important matter, obviously, from like to take up a point which was made their point of view; Standing Order 146 by my hon. colleague there because I allows them to do it. They would have then, agree completely with what has been said through counsel or individuals, been able by the member for South Douglas and the to expand upon their case. Nevertheless, member for Middle with regard to the way they have got certain points which I am we have looked at this scheme from this sure the hon. Chairman of the Board of angle, that we> want where we can to have Agriculture would wish to consider and, if necessary, put forward a rebuttal. Other­ an abattoir which is working full-time and is producing the top quality material but, wise — and this is the point I am making at the same time, I cannot help thinking — the Board w ill be challenged and be that there are many questions with regard considered possibly as having bias. to the approaches made by the Co-opera­ tive which have not been fully answered. Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, very shortly, In the letter which they sent round to us I would just like clarification from the they have spoken of approaches which mover of this resolution. It is certainly an they have made to the Board of Agriculture acceptable state of affairs that one is trying which have been entirely disregarded. I to encourage improvement in the quality of would like the hon. Chairman when he cattle. In any case there have been re­

Cattle Quality (Headage Payment) Scheme 1979 — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T235 marks made about the poor quality. One have thought that the amount of money that can see arguments for giving this sum we were paying over the counter would only if the animal goes through the abat­ have been sufficient. I wonder, really, if toir, but -it is also so that by increasing we do embark upon giving these things the quality of the through-put you are also to produce a better quality or whatever it increasing the temptation to export that should be. I take the point too, as we used through-put. After all, export is being to do under this support price, where we vigorously encourged and the export will used to say, we do not mind supporting be of the best quality meat. How is this them, our own consumers, so that our own going to be shown to the people as being people can enjoy the cheaper meat, but a way in which better quality meat is going we took it up with the Minister of State at to be produced for the housewife when, the time, Lord Stonham. Many of you will almost certainly, a large amount of that remember when he came over here and meat will be exported and will still have he promised to go into the factor to see carried the extra payment for increasing whether we could recover that amount of the quality? subsidy we had paid on the animals — the name they did not particularly care to Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I do not use, subsidy. At that time about one-th:rd wish to get involved in the letters and the of the production was being exported and correspondence we have had from the Co­ we wanted to try and recoup some of that operative and from the Butchers’ Associa­ amount of money. But it was found that it tion, but I would like to address myself on was difficult. a different angle altogether. I have always been a supporter of the agricultural in­ A member: He died, did he not? dustry and I believe that it is very impor­ tant. Over the years we have had, as far as Mr. Nivison: He died, yes, he did. fatstock is concerned, support prices in (Laughter.) But it was not because he order that the price that the farmer gets, the died, because I take it that we were vigo­ producer gets, for his animal should be rously pursuing this matter. Surely we brought up to a fair price which was based were not leaving it entirely to the hon. years ago on what was obtained in the Lord. We were pursuing the matter but we open market in certain parts of the United found it was impossible. Now we are going Kingdom. From time to time this support to embark upon this type of principle again price went up to as much as almost £5 whereby we are going to pay this kind of million in the year. It was a very expensive money to fatstock of a quality kind, and I item. But always, when we were told about think really that there might be a better this particular thing we said, this is in way. I am not opposing this particular vote the interests of the customer. This is not in because I would rather support the Board the interests of the farmer, not in the of Agriculture, I am sure they have weiahed interests of the producer, the distributor — this up very carefully, but I am sure there in the interests of the customer. I would must be a better way. And a better way have thought the price that we are pay­ was considered by the change of admini­ ing for meat today would be sufficient to stration in the United Kingdom — make influence the producer to produce a good the customer pay for the article rather than article without giving them a handout as qive the subsidy. This has been the admini­ well. I would have thought so. Incidentally, stration that we are enjoying — if that is this vote in a full year, we are advised by the corect word — from the United King­ my hon. friend, Mr. Kerruish, that it would dom today. Let the customer pay for the cost £60,000 in a full year. Now this is a goods and forget all these hand-outs and fair amount of money that we are paying subsidies, as they called them in the past. merely to produce a better article. I would But here we are giving them the extra

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price and we are giving them the subsidy much going out alive. It would be interest­ at the same time. I am sure that the Chair­ ing for the Court to know that there are man of the Board of Agriculture will have lambs this week going to be flown all the a very good explanation for this, but I do way alive to Germany, for example, and hope that in future schemes they will be there are increasing wagon loads of live very careful that we are not paying twice; lambs and cattle going out of the Island all paying by the Government for the produc­ the time, both as fat cattle and as store tion of this quality and then the customer cattle. Therefore, a percentage of that also paying over the counter. And my which will be shipped, of that on which a gracious me, nobody could say that the subsidy will be paid, will be a decreasing customer today is not paying plenty over amount. the counter for the beef he gets. Mr. MacDonald: Is there a subsidy on Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I just sheep going out? want to make one or two points. In fact, the first one would be in answer to the very Mr. Anderson: No. last remark of the hon. member for Coun­ cil. I wish I had the figures with me, but Mr. MacDonald: There are no sheep I have not, but an exercise was done very subsidies at all? recently whereby it Indicated that the average working man actually took a lesser Mr. Anderson: Oh, there is a deficiency time today to earn the price of his joint payment. (Interruption.) of meat than he did in the 1930’s. That is remarkable. Mr. Anderson: No, they are being flown out actually. Mr. MacDonald: They never ate meat in the 1930’s. Mr. MacDonald: That does not matter. (Laughter.) Mr. Anderson: But what I would say is that in relation to this sort of assistance, Mr. Anderson: My point is that of the of course, it has been done in Northern total meat produced on the Island an in­ Ireland for a very long time, a very long creasing amount is going to go out in the time indeed, because of the fact that it form of store or other means and it could was so advantageous to export the cattle be that we will reach a position in the that the meat packing stations would have Island when, in fact, it would be difficult to gone out of production. I think the hon. get all the meat that the Island requires. I member for Middle, Mr. Creer, so rightly know there is meat also being imported pointed out that this is helping to keep the into the Island. I can speak with some free­ better meat on the Island and it is also dom on this because I am very little in­ helping to keep people in regular work volved in the beef market myself. (Inter­ and a large number of people on the ruption.) Very little involved. (Interrup­ Island in the beef industry. There are a lot tion.) No, not in that category. I sell fat of people working full time in the beef cows and that sort of thing because they industry in the Isle of Man. Now, in relation are part of the dairy industry but they are to that part and I understand the hon. not involved in the subsidy that is in ques­ member for Garff’s point in this, that, at tion and the type of cattle which get this the moment, there is still quite an amount are actually the beef bred cattle not the of that which is slaughtered in the Island dairy cattle so, therefore, I am not grinding being exported but I want to point out to my own axe on this one. I would say that I members of this hon. Court that this is a think it is right and proper that, in fact, decreasing amount because there is so those who are prepared to keep the good

Cattle Quality (Headage Payment) Scheme 1979 — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T237 quality animals on the Island should get saying, hon. members, is, give them the a bit of encouragement to do it and that £10 a head so we can slaughter more the throughput at the abattoir is maintained cattle in the abattoir that can be exported because there are a lot of people receiv­ to Liverpool to subsidise the Liverpool ing regular employment down there and if housewives at the expense of the Manx that were to disappear it would cause a taxpayer. That is what we are talking about. lot of people to go out of work so it is a Do not be fooled by all this nonsense help from that point of view. I think, Your about encouraging the better breed and all Excellency, that the Court will support this the rest of it. I have a reference on this. because I think it is an encouragement for I was interested in a section of it, section better quality animals to be kept on the 10, paragraph 2, “The Association shall, Manx market. on receipt of the sum referred to in sub- paragraph ( 1 ) above, forthwith pay to Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, in the every registered producer the headage pay­ army they used to say "Never volunteer ment or payments due to him in respect of for anything because you will have the wool eligible animals owned by him and, in pulled over your eyes" and here this after­ doing so, shall clearly identify the headage noon, hon. members, you are having it payments on the payment advice.” How done. I spent two hours in the Harbour negative can you get? So all he does when Board finding out what was going on for he sends the receipt back from the £7£ million and I spent a whole day finding abattoir, our friend again, he just out what was going on on this, because points out somewhere where the £10 is I am more interested in little bits than I made up that has been given to him be­ am in big bits, they can look after them­ cause that is where it is going, to the selves. The situation is as follows, and this abattoir, it is to make them more competi­ is from the department concerned after a tive. I do not know whether to vote for it request from me. “ In the period 1st April or not. I suppose it is a good idea, we to 4th November this year the abattoir have got to keep the abattoir going. They throughput of clean steers and heifers has are losing now because imports are coming fallen to 4,359 compared with 5,042 and in but this is what we are doing, let us not 5,582 in the sim ilar periods in 1978 and fool ourselves it is anything else other 1977 respectively. The continuing decline than making sure the abattoir makes a would suggest a total figure of 6,349 for profit and helping to pay their losses the 12 month period April 1979 to March which the absent hon. Mr. Speaker asked 1980, compared with 7,341 in the 1978/79 a question on today. He wants to look at year and 7,623 in the 1977/78 year." So the accounts but before the accounts come when I got this I thought to myself, right, to us they are going to give us in the terms let us find out why the £10 has to be paid at least £60,000 and if the figures for ex­ and the reason it has got to be paid is ports go up again and the clean cattle because the amount of exports is going go up, because they will do, because at down so what they are actually doing is £10 a head we are talking about £70,000 this. We have got to pay £10 to a certain to £80,000, so let us be sure what we are section of the farmers to encourage them voting for. If you want to vote for £10 a to put more clean cattle through so we head for the abattoir do so, but I am going can put the exports up again. That is to use everything that is said in this debate what they are talking about and the last here later on at a meeting of this hon. paragraph of this is, "It is estimated that Court because some of the things that have approximately 30 per cent, of clean cattle been said point to the argument I will put slaughtered on the Island are exported forward later that if we are going to give annually as carcases", so what they are something give it to our own first and. do

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not fool ourselves that we are giving it Mr. MacDonald: Who owns it? for the benefit of the community when we know very well it is for the benefit of a Mr. Walker: The Local Government Board few and, in this case, 30 per cent, of which own it but it is on lease, there is a legal is for the benefit of the housewives in document — (interruption) — to the Fat­ Liverpool, to make our meat competitive stock but the Co-operative have been in on the Liverpool market. negotiation with the Fatstock and I am sure will do again. I would not be surprised Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, the hon. if they did not negotiate, get an agreement member is right in what he says — not with the Fatstock for slaughtering facilities. that money is going to go to the abattoir, it is not. The farmers are not that gullible, Mr. Delaney: It is in the letter. Treasury are not that gullible and the Board of Agriculture is not that gullible. Mr. Walker: They have not so far. Mr. Delaney: They are all shareholders in the abattoir. Mr. Delansy: No, they have not. It says it there. Mr. Walker: It is important that the throughput of the abattoir is kept up so Mr. MacDonald: They have no option that the home market has a greater choice. thsn but to export. To my mind there is no question about that at all. This is a simple scheme, Your Mr. Walker: We cannot really expand on Excellency, — (interruption)— and devious the butchers’ letter, Your Excellency, be­ reasons should not be read into it. It is cause of the pending court case. That simply to pay £10 per head to encourage would be a wrong thing to do, I think, but production of and the retention of better this is a simple scheme and it is supposed quality carcases on the Island for the bene­ to and I am sure it will encourage the pro­ fit of the consumer and she will get the duction of and the retention of better quality benefit because the butchers are now free carcases on the Island. to go to the abattoir and demand what they require and if they do not get what Mrs. Hanson: May I just ask a very simple they demand they will import it. We are question please, Your Excellency, from a playing a different ball game now that they consumer point of view because I am have got that freedom of choice and the interested in better quality meat which I agricultural community backed by the think every housewife is in this Island. I Board of Agriculture has got to make cer­ have a very simple question. When is the tain that they do have that choice, they lease up of the abattoir? What date is the have the right. (Interruption.) Any animal present lease ended for the abattoir? slaughtered on the Island, whether it is owned by a member of the Co-operative or Mr. Kerrulsh: Yes, well it is tradition that not will get the £10 headage or its pro­ matters relating to agriculture should en­ ducer will. Any animal, as long as it is gender such discussion and this item has slaughtered on the Island. certainly been no exception. My hon. col­ Mrs. Hanson: If it goes to the abattoir. league, Mr. MacDonald, and the hon. mem­ ber for Ramsey, Mr. Swales, referred to Mr. Walker: It has got to go to the the situation of the Co-operative. Now let abattoir. The Island’s Farmers’ Co-opera- me make it abundantly clear that as far as tive have been in negotiation with the the Board of Agriculture is concerned we abattoir to try and get slaughtering facili­ have nothing but goodwill for any Farmers’ ties, Co-operative organisation. The Island’s

Cattle Quality (Headage Payment) Scheme 1979 — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T239

Farmers’ Co-operative Society Limited, they have to accept them and they are per­ who have been in communication with hon. fectly willing to accept them. This is a members by means of this circular letter fundamental aspect of agricultural market­ have been in touch with the Board on one ing in the Isle of Man. I am old enough to or two matters. One is relating to the usage remember the day when farmers could not of the abattoir. Well, quite frankly, the sell their produce but today, through the Board of Agriculture have got nothing really medium of the Fatstock Marketing Associa­ directly to do with the abattoir. That is tion, a producers’ organisation, for which property which is leased by the Local they are wholly responsible financially, Government Board to another party, namely they have an assured market and if the the Fatstock Marketing Association, but we day will ever dawn when they have not got had an enquiry from them as to the usage that market for us, situated in a small island of the abattoir which we passed on to the out in the middle of the Irish Sea, that will Fa'stock Association and we were not able be a very bad day for agriculture, so let us to make any headway by virtue of the fact make no mistake about it. The Fatstock that we addressed a simple enquiry there Marketing Association are in a completely and got back a simple answer but as my different position from any buyer coming hon. colleague and Vice-Chairman says, in from outside. Now, I make no bones there is certainly nothing to stop any organ­ about the fact that this headage payment isation at present, the Island’s Farmers’ Co­ is related only to cattle which will be operative or anyone else, getting in touch killed within the Island. We have a lot of with the Fatstock Association again and mor.ey invested in the abattoir. The people maybe even the Local Government Board. who have it pay a lot of rent and there are I do not know whether they have been in about 40 people employed there, so I touch with the landlords to see if anything make no apology for preferring to have our could be done in this particular matter but fatstock slaughtered in the Isle of Man in relation to the Co-operative, in relation to instead of having it slaughtered in Liver­ the other people who are coming to the pool or London. I would sooner see our Island to buy, and I would like Mr. Delaney own abattoir workers kept busy than the to listen to this attentively because he has people in any other place. If we can do been talking to me lately about people anything properly, sensibly, in order to coming to the Island buying, not encourage the production of cattle in the buying cattle, but the Fatstock Market­ Isle of Man and provide employment here, ing Association are in a completely well then, certainly, let us do it because, different position to either the Co­ as my hon. colleague, Mr. Craine, said, this operative or the Co-operative’s associates is concerned with quality. Mrs. Hanson and they have got nothing against them, raised the question of the provision of a well-known British company, who come quality meat for the Isle of Man. I think we here and buy what suits them and they have to accept that we are in a completely do not buy what does not suit them but the different situation today than we were this Fatstock Marketing Association are under time last year. We had imports coming in, an obligation, an obligation which they there were very large quantities of meat willingly accept, to take from every pro­ coming in from the Repub'ic of Ireland, ducer of fatstock in the Island any fatstock brought in by certain butchers, quite that is offered to them. This applies equally legitimately. The licences to bring that to members of the Co-operative who wish meat in are issued by the Isle of Man Board to sell some of their stock to the Co­ of Agriculture and I will tell you later on operative or the Co-operative’s associates they are for very substantial quantities, but and keep the rest. The rest can be offered the fatstock people are in a competitive to the Fatstock Marketing Association and market, they have to compete against im­

Cattle Quality (Headage Payment) Scheme 1979 — Approved. T240 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

ports from the Republic of Ireland and Association feel aggrieved at a further at­ every butcher in the Isle of Man is a free tempt for the Government to re-establish agent. Some of them have contracted with a monopoly organisation." Now this mono­ the Fatstock Association to take all their poly organisation has gone and no-one requirements from them but, on the other should know it better than the butchers hand, they are equally free if they do not because they are bringing in large quan­ see the kind of quality that suits them at tities of meat in opposition to the mono­ the abattoir to go to the depot where the poly organisation. I have in my hand here Irish meat is kept for certain insular some information and I requested the office butchers and buy it there. The whole ball to furnish me with it. I find since 14th May game has changed dramatically insofar that of this year when the Board, at the request this monopoly situation has gone and our of the butchers, first started issuing local producers, through their organisation, licences to import meat from the Republic have to compete with imports of meat from of Ireland to the Butchers’ Association, the Republic of Ireland and with competi­ there have been licences issued by the tion from buyers coming into the United Board to the Butchers’ Association for the Kingdom to buy only their best stock if equivalent of 1,709 carcase equivalents. they like to pick it. They are under no They bring them in in cuts and whole car­ obligation to take everything that is cases, but that is the amount of meat that offered to them. They see an animal and has been imported by the Butchers' Asso­ they either like it or they do not like it. ciation during that period, this being im­ If they like it they buy it if they can make ported also by the same gentleman, or at a deal but if they do not like it they leave least we have issued licences for them, it. equivalent to 900 pork carcases. So for Mr. MacDonald: That is free trade. anyone to talk about a monopoly situation when they themselves are being granted Mr. Kerruish: I know it is free trade but licences and we know are importing very you have got to provide a market. Now you large quantities of meat, it seems to me talked a very long time, Mr. MacDonald. I to be altogether an anomalous statement did not interrupt you and I hope you will to make. Furthermore, they say later on, find my speech as interesting as I found “We are further surprised that in view of yours and give me the same attention as I the litigation," et cetera, "be harmful to the gave you. Major Crellin touched upon the trade." Certainly over the last year or two abattoir working full-time. I think it is most we have heard representations made on important that we should ensure, as far as numerous occasions by representatives of we reasonably can, that our own local insti­ the Butchers’ Association about the fall off tutions are kept fully employed and if it in the quality of Manx meat, we have heard provides employment here and certainly it made by certain members of the Court, when we get a greater throughput, as I but certainly the butchers have said that said to my hon. colleague, Mrs. Hanson, on many occasions and here we are in a the more that is there, the better oppor­ scheme directed towards improving the tunities there are for offering better quality quality of meat, meat which will be avail­ meats to the local consumer. The hon. able then to the customer, and they are member, Mr. Kermeen, raised a very valid opposing it. It seems to me their allega­ point and he said he hoped I would com­ tions about a monopoly, in view of the fact ment on certain observations made in the that they are importing very large quantities letter we got today from the Isle of Man and in view of the fact that this is directed Butchers’ Association and I certainly will. towards quality, an area which they think They say at the opening of .this letter that is meriting improvement, I cannot for the they learn of the intention of the Board of life of me understand how they can make Agriculture to, and I will just read: "My those particular statements. I hope to a

Cattle Quality (Headage Payment) Scheme 1979 — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T241 certain extent in these recent remarks I day will never dawn when we are simply have covered the comments made by the concerning the whole of our insular pro­ hon. member for Garff, Dr. Mann, because duction with the requirements of only insu­ the situation is this. Perhaps a year or lar markets themselves. Let us face it, the more ago a monopoly situation existed and financial sector is very nice and I am very I know full well there were many occasions much concerned with the manufacturing when butchers objected to the fact that sector and fully in support of it, but let us they would go to the abattoir and there was never forget our two basic indigenous re­ a very limited selection of beef available sources, the land and the seas surround­ to them. Now that is not the case today. ing these islands. For my part, the day There is a bigger throughput today by may come again, the wheel often turns full virtue of the fact that now there is a tem­ circle, when we will have to depend upon porary cutting room operating. They can those basic industries to a greater extent cut it up and offer a better selection of than we do today. Let us utilise those two cuts there but, particularly in view of the resources to the full, not only to supply fact that they know that they are no longer our own requirements but, where possible, a monopoly and unless they are able to to export, and the cost of export is wholly offer a reasonable display of quality to falling upon the producers themselves. local butchers, they know that local butchers would have good grounds for Mr. Delaney: But it is taxpayers’ money. going up to the depot that the Butchers’ Association has and buying what I under­ Mr- Kerruish: Yes, they pay for the cost stand is quite good quality Irish meat. They of exporting, that comes off the producer’s are free agents so the pressure is on them. price, there is no-one else who is going to The Association are operating in a free pay. They sell their meat in a competitive enterprise, very competitive field at the market as opposed to Irish meat here and moment and I have said this publicly and when they have got anything over they I will say it again today, the success or have to ship it to the Isle of Man and pay failure will very largely depend upon their the cost of shipping it. As far as the men­ ability to supply quality products and give tion of the £10 is concerned, this is made good service. It will be up to them. Mr abundantly clear with a view to making it Nivison, my hon. colleague here, touched clear beyond all shadow of doubt, this is upon the question of encouragement. Well, not a payment that has got anything to do the fact remains that although in theory with the Fatstock Marketing Association. It the prices are supposed to generate the is laid down very clearly on the return necessary production and engender con­ that will have to be made and you read fidence, that simply has not taken place it out and I was grateful to you for reading in view of the fact that there has been it out. It will have to be specified on the a fall away in production to the extent of payment slip that this is a specific headage 36 per cent, over the last five years. These payment. It has nothing to do with the are the hard facts of the case. They are price the Fatstock Association gives his simply not finding the economics of the man. We do not want it to have anything to job encouraging at all and this very modest do with the price. This is an encouraging scheme as I say, it is quite modest, will, factor which will be set out very clearly we hope, have the effect of engendering on its own. I would very much like to thank confidence and encouraging the produc­ my hon. Vice-Chairman for his support. I tion of better quality meat which would be think I mentioned the question of abattoir in the interests of both the producer and useage earlier on and I think earlier on in the consumer. As far as Mr. Delaney’s the debate I did reply to the hon. member, comments about exports are concerned, Mrs. Hanson. I would emphasise that th's yes, I do not conceal the fact, I hope the is quite a modest scheme to encourage the

Cattle Quality (Headage Payment) Scheme 1979 — Approved. T242 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 production of better quality cattle to stimu­ Functions) Bill has been signed by a late this very important sector and I think quorum in both Branches. it will be in the interests of maintaining and creating employment in the Island and, The Court adjourned for tea. at the same time, ensuring a better supply of quality cattle in the interests of the consumer. POISONS RULES (APPLICATION) ORDER 1979 — APPROVED. The Governor: Hon. members, I will put the question. Those in favour please say The Governor: We resume, hon. mem­ aye; against, no. bers, with item No. 20.

A division was called for and voting Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to resulted as follows:— move:—

In the Keys— That the Poisons Rules (Application) Order 1979 be and the same is hereby For: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, J. J. Rad- approved. cliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Dr. Mann, Messrs. Callin, Watterson, Creer, A member: I beg to second. Walker, Cringle, Quinney, Craine, Irving, Mrs. Hanson, Mr. Kermeen, Dr. The Governor: Is that agreed? Moore, Messrs. Christian and Swales — 18. It was agreed.

Against: Mr. Delaney— 1.

The Actlng-Speaker: Your Excellency, ISLE OF MAN BOARD OF SOCIAL the motion carries in the House of Keys, SECURITY — MR. QUINNEY ELECTED 18 votes being cast in favour and one vote MEMBER. against. The Governor: Item No. 21. I call upon In the Council— the hon. member, Mr. Anderson.

For: The Lord Bishop, Sir John Bolton, Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to Messrs. Kneale, Crellin, Moore, Nivi­ move that Mr. Quinney be elected as a son, Kerruish, Simcocks— 8. member of the Isle of Man Board of Social Security. Against: Mr. MacDonald— 1. A member: I beg to second. Ths Governor: In the Council, eight in favour, one against, the motion therefore The Governor: Is that agreed? carries. It was agreed.

BILL FOR SIGNATURE — REQUISITE SIGNATURES OBTAINED. PUBLIC LOTTERY — DECLARATORY RESOLUTION DEFEATED. The Governor: Before we adjourn for tea, hon. members, I have to announce The Governor: Item No. 22. I call on the that the Customs and Excise (Transfer of hon. member, Mr. Irving.

Bill for Signature — Requisite Signatures Obtained. — Poisons Rules (Application) Order 1979 — Approved. — isle of Man Board of Social Security — Mr. Quinney Elected Member. — Public Lottery — Declaratory Resolution Defeated. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T243

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to organised in the same way as the Millen­ move:— nium instant lottery has been. Hon. mem­ bers will have noticed that my motion refers Tynwald, having noted the success and to, and I quote, "similar lotteries for pur­ popularity ol the Millennium Instant Public poses approved by Tynwald from time to Lottery among both residents and visitors, time.” — not necessarily for ever but cer­ is of the opinion that legislation should be tainly for a period of time, that is, if hon. introduced into the branches at an early members agree to future lotteries, I would date to permit the authorisation of similar hope that the proceeds could be used for lotteries for purposes approved by Tyn­ the development of sport and recreational wald from time to time. facilities on the Island. Quite apart from considerations guiding the Sports Council Looking at the time, I made some notes in their operations — and here at this on this question of a further lottery and I stage, very briefly, I would like to quote believe it might save the Court’s time if I from a letter I have received from a mem­ stuck to what is more or less a prepared ber of the Sports Council which will give script and did not extend over various hon. members some idea of the approach areas. There can be no doubt, Your Ex­ of the members of the Sports Council to cellency, that the Millennium public lottery sport in the Isle of Man. He says: “ The has been a great success and very popular Council is concerned with the enhance­ since almost 2| million tickets have been ment of the quality of life, the standards sold. It seems that the Millennium Fund of citizenship and leadership, the proper for the elderly and the disabled will even­ direction of the release of useful energy tually produce, with interest, about in wholesome activity which has the ele­ £300,000. This is a very large sum of ment of character building, the opportunity money which in no way will reduce Govern­ for the development of individual potential ment’s efforts to help those members of our by way of personal achievement to produce community but it will be used for extra a sense of well being and harnessing the assistance not normally provided by Gov­ competitive spirit to stimulate activity which ernment. Tynwald approved legislation to can have a lasting benefit to the commu­ permit a Millennium lottery for Millennium nity and the individual." That is the atti­ Year only and I am aware that some hon. tude of the Sports Council but we know, members agreed on the understanding that with the great increases in leisure time the lottery would be held for one year only available to people nowadays, the Manx but I do not believe that that prevents Government must encourage the expansion them now considering afresh the question of opportunities for sport and leisure. of future lotteries, especially in view of the When I proposed in this Court some years success and popularity which I have men­ ago the formation of a Sports Council, I tioned of the present venture. It has now made it quite clear that it was not to be been proved that the Manx Government just a Government agency giving financial can operate a splendid lottery producing handouts to any of the sports clubs who an enormous amount of money for charity. approached them for money, and it has The Millennium lottery has been organised not been. The Sports Council has helped most efficiently by the Finance Board and, those sports people who have helped them­ of course, the Treasury and at no cost to selves. Now this year the Sports Council Government for the allocation of the pro­ has a budget of £11,500 which is to cover ceeds of ticket sales takes into account the its normal expenditure for the development expenses of the Treasury so that for the of local sport, that is, giving some assis­ Treasury to continue running lotteries tance to persons going to the United King­ would not cost the taxoayer anything and dom to take part in competitive sport, to I hope that any future lotteries would be send people away for coaching, for train­

Public Lottery — Declaratory Resolution Defeated. T244 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 ing, to bring people here for training and encouragement of the young people, parti­ coaching and to give some financial assis­ cularly in athletics. The ambition of the tance to what might be regarded as minor Sports Council was to see an indoor sports sports facilities. Now, not only that, this centre. We have now got a first class in­ £11,500 must cover the preparation of door sports centre at Summerland, we have people who are likely to be selected for another, what can be called a sports the next Commonwealth Games. It is no centre at Peel School, we have the Plaza use waiting until a few months before the coming along in Ramsey and we are now 1982 Commonwealth Games and saying, turning our attention or have been for some “We are now going to send people away time to outdoor sports and our aim at the to take part in competitive sport to prepare moment is to see a modern, all-weather them for the Games.” We are doing that running track, I would hope, at the new now. Apart from this, hon. members may Onchan School, together with other ancil­ know that there is a sum of £25,000 made lary athletic facilities. It will be a splendid available each year which can be borrowed worthwhile project but it will cost a great by sporting organisations, available for deal of money. I hope that the track itself, loans to sports clubs. Hon. members will an all-weather running track, will be pro­ recall that in this Court recently it was vided by Government. The rest of the suggested that the proceeds of the Olympic facilities, I hope, can be provided by fund Games Crowns might be used for assist­ raising efforts and by public subscription ance to sport in the Island. This would but I believe it is important for sport in the be most welcome if it could be arranged Isle of Man to have an all-weather running but, frankly, one must remember that it is track which, quite frankly, may cost a one-off and the amount involved, which £200,000. I do not feel that it is easy for certainly would be several thousand the Finance Board to find £200,000, just pounds, would not enable the Sports like that, for a running track, I wish they Council to provide the facilities we ought would, but I believe the better way of doing to have. There are many sports on the it is to proceed with the instant type of Island where the facilities are quite inade­ lottery we have and for a period of time, quate and hon. members, I am sure, are not for ever, to devote the proceeds of the aware of this. Let us consider one — lottery, which could be a considerable athletics. There are hundreds of active amount, to the provision of adequate sport­ participants in the Isle of Man in athletics. ing facilities on the Island and for recrea­ Here we have a sport without even a tion and leisure time facilities. This is proper running track. The Chairman of the where I believe we should get the funds to Board of Education, I am sure, will sup­ do it. If we can agree that the present form port what I have to say now and if one of lottery be continued and devote the pro­ wants to see the enthusiasm for athletics ceeds to the development of local sport in the Island one should go on a Thursday and recreation there could be enormous evening down near the old territorial drill benefit for the young people of this Island. hall, as I did one Thursday this summer. I Your Excellency, I beg to move the motion found about children there from all 100 in my name. over the Island with their parents, tiny little tots. They were announcing the next race Mr. Crellin: I beg to second and reserve would be for eight years and under for boys, and so on. Now there were at least my remarks. 100 children there without the proper facilities, there were two pits for long Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I doubt jump, and so on, and all these children if there is any resolution that could come were taking part in these ¡things. This is before this hon. Court that could divide what we want to see, we want to see the me down the middle more than this does.

Public Lottery — Declaratory Resolution Defeated. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T245

I have three sons that I suppose are more remember a neighbour of mine who in­ dedicated to sport than any other three dulged in both, and he is dead and gone, lads on this Island. When they have got an he said to me, “ Look lad, you can drink hour, there are seldom days of the week as much as you like and you can buy when they are not training in one form or as many drinks as you can but you can another for rugby, athletics and all the rest only spend too much" and he was in that of it, and I endorse wholeheartedly the position, he said, "but you can throw away hon. mover's sentiments in relation to in one night your whole life’s work in facilities for sport and outdoor sport and gambling” and this is absolutely true. Much hon. members will recall that when this as I would support the hon. member in his resolution came up I supported the idea of aim and objective, there is no way in the hon. member, I think it was for Rushen, which my conscience could support this that this money should be diverted in that resolution to further endorse in the Isle of way. But, Your Excellency, much as I sup­ Man the sale of these tickets, which in port that and probably it will be one of themselves seem so innocuous but which the most unpopular things I will have to can lead to the destruction of lives of say with a lot of people quite closely people in time to come. I do wish i had a associated with me, that however good the recording of the two television programmes end is, the means must not justify it. I that I have seen in the past week in just wonder how many hon. members of relation to this problem, and they were not this Court have listened to the programmes senior citizens but youngsters in the United on the radio in relation to young people Kingdom. It is a very, very real one and I gambling in the past week, or have any am sorry, much as I like the objective, I recollection of last week the conference cannot support the principle. held in London about the very real dilemma that faces school children in relation to Mr. CaINn: Your Excellency, I am not gambling, and the persons interviewed and personally against the sale of lottery tickets the problems in which they found them­ at all and I would say on first thought that selves as a result of this, which is a creep­ this proposal is worthy of support because ing evil in any society, and i honestly there is no question whatever that the Mil­ believe, much as I would love to, and there lennium instant lottery was highly success­ is nothing that I know of that would make ful. On second thoughts, however, one me dig deeper into my own pocket than should consider the effect that these have to provide the facilities which the hon. on the other various charities. I have been member is requesting, but in no way could reliably informed that some of our other I support it because I have seen how this worthwhile charities have suffered as a has crept within our society. To me, the result of the Millennium lottery. I will sup­ success of this is not a success as I see it, port the resolution that is before this hon. and the way hon. members see it, but it house today if the hon. mover will give has in a sense endorsed this as something, an assurance that the Island’s registered because Government approves it, which is charities will benefit. The resolution states a good thing. I remember so well in my that it permits the authorisation of similar own family, there was a little effort in the lotteries for purposes approved by Tynwald village and my child went along and she from time to time. I am sure that Tynwald bought three tickets and got four teddy will be able to find many worthwhile causes bears out of it, and it was very difficult to to support, but I would not like to think explain to her that that was an evil thing. that this is going to be done at the ex­ But you know, Your Excellency, this can pense of some of our other very excellent go in society from one stage to another and charities, and I am thinking of the spastics, it can prove to be a very, very evil thing. I cystic fibrosis, the deaf and dumb, anti­

Public Lottery — Declaratory Resolution Defeated. T246 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

cancer, mentally handicapped, to name but I would have thought this would be a matter a few. Your Excellency, I will support the which we ought at least to allow to pro­ resolution if the hon. mover is prepared ceed to the point of introducing legislation. to give an assurance that these other The sort of limitations in the mind of the charities will not suffer. hon. member for Middle could no doubt be inserted at the point when legislation Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, I rise to is before the Branches, but I think we support this resolution and also to express ought to support this. my admiration for the hon. member for Douglas East in having moved it. He and The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, may I and the hon. member of the Council, Mr. I immediately say I support the hon. Mr. Moore, some time ago had the doubtful Acting-Speaker in his plea for a sports privilege of demonstrating how not to run a centre here and for a running track and lottery. It was a painful experience for us no-one would be more enthusiastic about it but I would like to think that perhaps that than I would be. But I was really exercised experience has enabled the Finance Board in my mind when I read this item on the to make what appears to be a very striking Agenda, and I am even more disturbed success of what is undoubtedly a very after listening to the hon. Mr. Acting- harmless occupation. We are talking in Speaker, a personal friend of mine. Many terms of tickets being sold, presumably, of us who were opposed to the original for 25 pence each. I can understand the Millennium lottery were assured that this apprehensions of the hon. member for would be a one-off lottery and some of us Glenfaba, Mr. Anderson. His views are at that time had considerable reservations well known and are respected, but I think whether it would be so. Of course, we ex­ it would be difficult to suggest that the pected that lottery to succeed. I am selling of an odd ticket of 25 pence each delighted that there is in excess of mil­ could really be the open sesame to a life lion available to help the aged and the of misfortune. The Finance Board, as I infirm on this Island but I hope none of say, are to be congratulated in having us will be content with the manner in organised a highly successful lottery which which this money has been raised. I think has produced a lot of money for a good Sir John Bolton, who was the Chairman cause. It seems to me that there can be of the Millennium Appeal Committee, must no harm done and certainly the prospect of be a very disappointed man in that so a great deal of benefit to be reaped from little was contributed directly to his own allowing legislation to be introduced which personal appeal. I have watched, and I could, in the future, enable similar events imagine that some of you have watched, to occur. It is not as if we are talking about children queuing to buy lottery tickets in gambling such as is permitted in betting Millennium Year. We have already given shops. I would have thought that of all to them, I regret, the lust for gambling and the forms of gambling there are, the buy­ I must disagree with my hon. colleague in ing of what is little more than a tombola Council, Mr. Simcocks, in this respect. I ticket, and that is all we are talking want to say, without fear of contradiction, about . . . that with a population of less than 65,000 people, there are already too many Mr. Nivison: You can buy hundreds of avenues on this Island for people to them. gamble, quite apart from the casino, the gaming shops, the bingo halls, the betting Mr. Simcocks: It depends how assidu­ shops, one can go to few functions, and ously you apply yourself to the task, but I regret, even sometimes to Church func­ we are talking really of the purchase of tions, without being encouraged to buy tombola tickets, nothing very much more. raffle tickets. Your Excellency, have we

Public Lottery — Declaratory Resolution Defeated. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T247 given up the old concept of giving, direct ber for Middle has said, have suffered as a giving? I am not of the opinion that legis­ result of this lottery? How many people lation should be introduced into the have gone short of the necessities simply Branches at an early date to permit the to meet the urge to have a go in the hope authorisation of similar lotteries for pur­ that they may win £500, £100 or £50 as the poses approved by Tynwald. I have already case may be. Have we been proud of our received one letter from an organisation, way of life here through the past? You who and a very deserving organisation, asking are Manx, surely, are very proud of your that I would support it in its approach to way of life and I was very proud to em­ Tynwald for a public lottery. Perhaps you brace it when I came here, but I wonder have had a similar letter. How, indeed, are whether we are beginning to throw our we to differentiate between one good cause standards overboard. Is the hon. member and another? Someone said, let us abolish encouraging us to become a miniature Las taxation altogether and let us raise all our Vegas? That is what we will be if we open funds by means of public lotteries. No, the flood gates and I hope that all who Your Excellency, there are many people on feel as I do this evening about this exten­ this Island, and I want to stress this, who sion over the lottery will stand up and be have been distressed by what they have counted, that we will resist any further seen in our shops and where people have opportunities to enable those who are weak been able to buy Millennium lottery tickets to use their money to gamble. I am very and I want to say that many people could sad to have to stand here this evening to ill afford to buy those tickets and it has take issue with my hon. colleague, but I been sad to watch old age pensioners believe that I speak for, as I said, many having not one go, or two goes, but spend­ people. I would remind this hon. Court of ing a pound and sometimes two pounds, a resolution which appeared in the press which they can ill afford and I think of from a recent Methodist Synod. My own them, particularly as a member of the Synod has not yet had an opportunity of Board of Social Security, where we are discussing this matter but I think I know trying to help them meet the heavy cost of the minds of many of those people and I heating and food. I know that my hon. think they would support me in the stand colleagues will say, but look at the results. that I am making tonight. Let me end, We have million to spend. May I ask Your Excellency, by saying that last even­ the hon. mover of this resolution, is he able ing it happened to be the annual general to indicate to this hon. Court how much meeting of the Isle of Man Council of it has cost Government to administer the Churches and I took the opportunity of pre­ Millennium lottery? senting this resolution, number 22, to that Mr. Irving: It has not cost them anything. annual meeting. It was rightly discussed and I was asked to bring before this hon. The Lord Bishop: Oh, come now. Court today a resolution which had over­ whelming support by those present, and Mr. Irving: We are taking it out of the the whole spectrum of the Christian Church expenses. was present at that meeting, and that reso­ The Lord Bishop: Right, well I will accept lution is, “That this annual general meet­ that point. May I ask how he proposes, if ing of the Isle of Man Council of Churches, he succeeds in his resolution, to administer held on 19th November 1979, urges Tyn­ any future lotteries and may I ask him wald to consider the serious implications further whether he has really consulted the of continuing public lotteries on the Isle of people of the Island? He speaks in terms Man, having regard to (1) the opportunity of the Sports Council. How many of our afforded to children to purchase Millennium voluntary organisations, as the hon. mem­ lottery tickets; (2) the serious effect the

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Millennium lottery has had upon voluntary this is an indication of the possible dangers organisations and their finances; (3) the of ready access to this type of lottery. There moral issues which public lotteries present is no mistake about it, lotteries are a in the matter of gambling on the Island marvellously pleasant way to raise money and the image it gives to our young people for Government, but the trouble is they and to our visitors; and (4) urges Tynwald are not a fair way. Taxation, for all its to reject the request that further lotteries unpleasantness, does take advantage of be permitted and that no resulting legisla­ financial strength. Lotteries, I fear, take ad­ tion be introduced and that direct giving to vantage of weakness, and I do not believe voluntary organisations and bodies be en­ that it is a method which responsible Gov­ couraged.” I trust that I speak for a ernment should support. number of my friends in this hon. Court who count themselves, as I do, a modern Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, just very Christian. I want to re-echo the words of briefly, I support this resolution because l the hon. member, Mr. Anderson. I saw believe it is going to supply something for those programmes and I was very per­ our young people which is badly needed turbed. I want to say to you, hon members, and the part of gambling that I am not that we, the clergy, are often at the re­ proud of is when you walk along Strand ceiving end of a broken marriage, we are Street and see these one-armed bandits, often at the receiving end of a domestic full of children putting their coppers in, problem, and I do know from my contacts and other people as well, thousands of with my own clergy alone that even the them putting money into these one-armed Millennium lottery has taken its toll for bandits every day in the summer-time. This some families where money was spent is the competition that we are facing and which could ill afford to be spent. this is what we want to compete against, to provide something for these young Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, there can people in the sports line, on the lines that be no disouting the financial success of the hon. mover of the resolution has sug­ the Millennium lottery. Indeed, I understand gested. I think this is what we must do. I from the Treasury that about 8,000 tickets just wonder, one little question, what is a day are still being sold. In other words, the legal consideration here now, the age that means that the Manx public are spend­ limit for gambling? Is there such a thing ing about £2,000 a day on this lottery, as an age lim it for gambling? now, in November, and it is this very suc­ cess which gives, I believe, cause for con­ Mrs. Hanson: Under sixteen, it is against cern, because we do have responsibility the law. to protect our own people against unwise Mr. Quirk: It is against the law. overspending which can lead to various other difficulties. I do not think protect is Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I think most too strong a word because the easy avail­ things have been said. I was with a group ability of these tickets and the instant of people discussing this a few weeks ago ability to find out if you have won or not and they were immediately in great difficulty makes them very hard to resist. I fear that because of the small size of the stake those who find them hardest to resist, money, the fact that Government has al­ frequently, are those who should least be ready accepted the principle of a Millen­ affording them, who cannot afford them. nium lottery, and the fact that we have a Looking at the prize list from time to time Gaming Board and the very existence of a during the summer, I wonder if other hon. casino, that to take up a moral issue on the members have noticed the comparative matter of the 25 pence stake money was frequency with which the addresses come really rather innocous in scale to the vast from areas of subsidised housing? I think amount of gambling that otherwise took

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place. But I think, having thought about bingo in the bingo halls, Your Excellency, this, including, of course, the fact that and it was 25 pence five years ago and most Church organisations also run raffles, it is 25 pence today. This Court would not where are we going to say no? One can extend it. But this is worse than bingo see, as the hon. member for Peel has halls because in a bingo hall you are con­ pointed out, and which I think is the trolled to 25 pence when you go in, when strongest argument against, that we tax you buy your five tickets or whatever it is. the weak to produce what should be pro­ With this you can go into a tobacconist duced by normal revenue raising and I shop, you can go into any shop at all, it is think most people feel uneasy that one is not controlled to 25 pence, you can buy raising money in this way to fund projects £10 worth if you want, which is completely that really are the responsibility of the com­ wrong and I do not believe that this would munity at large. Now, where do we say no? be success at all. The hon. mover does Looking back over the last year, it is true not mention the Sports Council in this at the amount of stake money is very small, all, he does not. but the amount of people taking advantage of it is very large. For the first time ever, Mr. Irving: I have not mentioned the Arts people are easily able to obtain these Council either, and I thought they would tickets by just walking into stores and get something out of it too. kiosks all over the Island with the greatest Mr. Creer: Yes, but you did not. I would of ease and one does hear of these stories where old age pensioners are spending no': like to see the Sports Council run­ reasonably large sums, and remember, for ning an instant lottery. people who have very little, in fact, for Mr. Irving: I did not suggest anything of young people and children and old age the kind. pensioners, of course, the rewards seem enormous and so the temptation is greater. Mr. Creer: Sport in the Isle of Man can I think we would be wrong to continue help Itself a lot better than It is doing. I this, but in saying that I would hate to have gone through the mill in sport in this think we are being bigger hypocrites than Island for a good number of years. I have we ordinarily would be and I think that if been a footballer, I have been practically we are strong enough to say no to this, everything, I am at the present time the and say that this should be funded correct­ patron of Union Mills Football Club and ly by the community, then at least those we are very successful. On a Tuesday night of us who are voting against it should be we have the floodlit pitch and we do train­ taking a strong stand against the very ing up there. I do not do training, of course, activities of Government that we are in­ but I sometimes go to watch them. You volved in, namely, raising money through a get 30 or 40 boys up there training. There Gaming Board, and I feel that if enough is no help from the Sports Council. We peole think that this is wrong, enough have not asked for any help. We did ask people will take action in other respects for help to send a team away to Liverpool as well. to do some matches there — I forget when it was, it was the spring of the year IVtr. Creer: Your Excellency, I am not — and I think we did get two or three going to support this either. I will give my pounds, but not very much. reasons for not supporting it. When I did support it before it was because it was a Mr. Irving:. Was this the Braddan Club? one-off but I think the lesson learned with ttfis one-off business, we tried to get a Mr. Creer: No this Is Union Mills. Any­ resolution through here, the Chairman of way, I am not going to support it, Your the Gaming Board I think it was, for the Excellency.

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Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, the Mil­ about the filthy state of the streets in Dou­ lennium lottery legislation was got through glas. Go along Strand Street and see what on the pretence that that was going to most of the filth is. People say it is the be a once only, but there is an old say­ chip packets but it is not, it is lottery tic­ ing — “Get your toe in the door first and kets. You are up to your knees in them we will soon knock the door down later” going along there. (Laughter.) This is the and this is what is happening now. Dr. kind of thing that is happening and do not Mann raised the question about the gamb­ let us fool ourselves that we have made a ling and the Government not getting money lot of money from the visitors out of the from gambling. The casino, I feel sure, was sale of these because the majority of in his mind. We all know what has hap­ tickets that have been sold have been sold pened with the casino. It is an absolute dis­ to locals who are compulsive buyers now. grace to the Island. The hon. member, Mr. I say, have nothing more to do with this Simcocks, said he could see no harm in lottery or any other lottery and it has also this, that this was much different from the had a detrimental effect, as people have betting shops, he could see no harm in said, on worthwhile charities. If we want selling an odd ticket at 25 pence. But to provide, and we think that the need is these tickets have been sold in public great enough for a running track, then houses, tobacconist shops, sweet shops, Government should be doing something newsagents, grocery stands, and it is a about it, the same as they had to do with question of compulsive selling. It is there swimming pools. We had an awful job to when you go in to purchase something else get them off the ground for swimming and it is under your nose and people have pools. Now we have virtually a good swim­ now got into the habit, when they are ming pool in every area. It took a long going for their groceries, of maybe buying time to do it. If the Sports Council are a strip of tickets. I am sure every one of doing their job properly then they will be you have seen this happening and we agitating for Government to provide the heard the story that it is against the law facilities for the children and when the hon. to sell to children. Well, so is parking on Acting-Speaker referred to his trip down double yellow lines, so is parking within to Tromode, was it, to see the children, so many yards of the white lines, so is these children have been doing this the loitering in betting shops, and so is throw­ whole of his lifetime and he has been down ing litter on the pavement, including lot­ once to see them, and these children do tery tickets. If you go down to Strand not want tartan running tracks because Street and pass the kiosk that is outside they would break their necks on the running what used to be the old Palais de Danse, tracks. If you have seen small children and watch what is happening there, you running, invariably they trip over and this will see parents coming along with the is what would happen. They need decent children in the pram and giving them 25 facilities at their schools and decent facili­ pence or something like this to hand up ties should be provided at their schools. If and the ticket has been handed down to we want the fancy stuff and there is a the children, then the mother taking it off demand for it from the people who are them and scribbling away on it. But it is dedicated and want to go further, then Gov­ no good complaining to the police about ernment should be providing this here and this because the police are closing their not relying on the sale of lottery tickets to eyes to everything. All the laws that are do it. being broken, all the parking laws, the litter laws, they do not seem to want to Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, it has know and now you have the situation, the been very interesting listening to this new Mayor of Douglas has mentioned this, debate this afternoon and I was very inte­ people have been complaining this year rested to read a debate in this Court when

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I put forward a resolution in October 1978 but we cannot provide tartan tracks or for a Millennium lottery. In fact, I am very anything of a sophisticated nature for pure delighted it has been such a success and athletics without the finance coming from I think the Finance Board should be con­ another source. If the finance comes from gratulated about this. I read with interest another source we will be only too pleased that one member said, the Millennium Com­ to co-operate with the new school at mittee are on to a loser, it will not go. Onchan. We have provided a running track I will not mention who said it. (Interrup­ at all the other schools but it is a grass run­ tion.) My hon. colleague from West Dou­ ning track. I do not know about these tartan glas. I am in rather a dilemma, Your running tracks, only what I am told. Now Excellency. Forgetting now that I am Chair­ here is a dilemma. I believe, personally, man of the Millennium Committee, because I am not a gambling person, I do not sup­ we have nothing more to do now with the port gambling in any way, but I have got Millennium lottery, there is a Millennium this dilemma. I believe that the Govern­ Appeal Committee, but I am Chairman of ment should provide the money. I do not the Board of Education and when I put think the Government is doing enough for this resolution to this hon. Court in October our young people in athletics, and I believe 1978, it was my A chilles’ heel again, which that if the Government did more for our I have had right through the Millennium, young people in this field we would not because I was Chairman of the Board of have the vandalism, we would not have the Education, some people said, it was in the delinquency, because they would be get­ press, that it was very, very wrong that the ting used to the open air and used to Chairman of the Board of Education athletics. I heard a very interesting thing should show the young people that she when the swimming squadrons were over was in favour — this is what some said — here for these national swimming cham­ of gambling, of having a lottery. Now I pionships, and the President told me that have been down to the sports field which very, very rarely did any of their swimmers the hon. member for East Douglas has ever get into trouble in the courts and, in mentioned and I was amazed. I went down fact, only one that he could remember had one Thursday night and there were 100 ever been up before a court in trouble, children and there must have been nearly and that was because it was a broken 100 parents there and these children were home. Now this, I thought, was remarkable. all under the age of 10. There is another When I went to Germany a few years ago night for older children which I did not go as a guest of the women’s organisations of to. I spent two hours down there and I Germany, I was taken round marvellous was terribly impressed. I have never seen sports centres, and there were children anything quite like it. I would not have believed it, only I saw it myself. Now if we being trained on the track and on bars, provide facilities for children for athletics, with their parents there. Apparently they go what am I doing, or what is the Sports all day on Sunday, they go all day Satur­ Council going to do? Getting them out of day, they go in the evenings, and when the discotheques, getting them out of the I was in this part of Germany I did not see public houses, because, let us face it, any vandalism, I did not see any writing on drinking amongst teenagers is far more the walls, I saw no bad behaviour whatso­ prevalent in the Island than gambling is ever, but I did see children swimming, with young people, make no mistake about dancing, jumping, running. I am convinced it. The Board of Education provides facili­ that if the Government put more money ties for all the children in the schools for into providing sports facilities for our sports. We are also very happy to allow young people we would not have the drink those facilities to be used by the com­ problem, we would not have the vandalism munity at night, providing they pay a fee, problem, and we would not have the delin­

Public Lottery — Declaratory Resolution Defeated. T252 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 quency that we have got today. I do believe that they want to build a centre in the that Government should finance it. There Island, I would tie into it other organisa­ is just one thing I am interested in. Could tions of a charitable nature who suggest the mover of the resolution answer me that they have been edged out because we this? If you were to run a lottery to provide sold lottery tickets in a Millennium lottery. a running track, and this is what I am inte­ There are causes in the Isle of Man that rested in, athletics for the young people, require this support. It is an unfortunate I am very interested in this, would it be for fact of life that we have to say to my Lord a full year or would it be like the last lot, Bishop, hon. member of this Council, it from May to December, or say May to is an unfortunate fact of life that people October? Also, who would run it? Would do not put their hands in their pockets the Finance Board still run it with an readily unless there is some little incen­ agency of Government? I did say in another tive there. This is a fact of life. Even if the place when I moved the Bill that if further prize is so insignificant, as somebody has legislation came forward it would not be said, a teddy-bear, something of that sort, me who would move it, and I am firmly people will buy 20 pence worth of tickets determined about that because I am not in for a teddy-bear or some small item which favour of gambling in any way. I would is not worth the 20 pence even if they like those questions answered. I am not win. But it is the incentive there, some­ saying whether I support it or I do not thing to draw them out, to draw out the support it because I do believe that Gov­ best in them and get the thing off the ernment should plough more money into ground. Because this resolution is so firm athletics for our young people. in its resolve that the efforts for which the lottery would be held are efforts which are Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, in support approved by Tynwald, I feel that I am in a of the resolution, I think that I will not be position that I will support this modest ven­ singularly responsible for one thing in a ture. I said at the time of the Millennium month’s time. I will have a wallet bulging lottery, of course, that I would support it with tickets of all sorts, all sorts of raffle because everywhere else it was one of tickets for a Christmas draw of one sort these things, it was not a "one-off” there, or another, with the first prize being a they go on and on year by year running bottle of whisky, from every football club, these things, and as long as the money is every rugby club, every charity, every going to some reasonable cause I will sup­ organisation in the Isle of Man, and it port them. It is one of these things, of does give the indication that one way of course, on which this hon. Court will make producing money for charitable and sport­ its mind up. I can see by the feeling up to ing organisations is by way of some sort now how the lottery proposal is going to of raffle, draw, lottery, or whatever you go, but at least we express our opinion. like to call it. I put them all under one Somebody said, stand up and be counted. heading — if it is a decent cause, if it is Well, I have stood up and been counted. a cause worthy of support, I will support it and I will buy a ticket of some sort or another. All that is said about this par­ Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I have been ticular resolution as it stands is that a sitting back waiting to have a go, as it lottery may be run — the implication by were, not being able to catch your eye to the member — for any cause approved by get first on to my feet, as the hon. mover this hon. Court. I would tie into that, of is aware, and it will come as no surprise course, the suggestion he makes, the Isle to any member of this Court that I am of Man Sports Council, a very worthy voting 100 per cent, against this resolution cause. I would also tie into it the Isle of which is in front of us today. I would think Man Spastics Society who have suggested that the basic principle should be sufficient

Public Lottery — Declaratory Resolution Defeated. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T253 to make any member of this Court vote words which the hon. mover said, who'e- similarly. However, it appears that that some activity. Frankly, there is no way, basic principle is not abroad with every­ absolutely no way, in which any member body and, therefore, we will have to try of this Court can honestly say that for to persuade what I have got down on my Government to raise funds by lottery is little list here at the present time as two wholesome. There is no way any honest waverers in the downstairs room, as it member can say that. I would say to the were, and we can hope to try to persuade hon. member for Middle, Mr. Callin, who them. I would say first off that the hon. was one of the earlier members to speak mover of the resolution has been very this afternoon, be honest to yourself when clever, there is no question at all about it, it comes to voting time, be really honest. and I hold up both hands to him in so far You have asked and you have said that as he is a very, very able politician indeed, you will support the hon. mover if he will and he chose the way of putting the reso­ give you certain assurances. He may very lution on the Agenda Paper very well. He well blandly give you certain assurances, has allied to it sporting facilities, and I but let me tell you equally forcibly that have no doubt he considered the basic there is no possible way in which he can make-up of the House of Keys and he give you the assurances that the other thought, probably, to himself regarding small clubs will not be spoiled by a Gov­ those who were in opposition against a ernment sponsored lottery. My hon. friend Millennium lottery, how can I best get at and colleague on the Legislative bench, them? And realising, no doubt, that those Mr. Simcocks, a gentleman with whom I of us who were against the Millennium very rarely disagree, basically, but today lottery had an allied interest in sport, I I must sincerely take him to task when he suggest that that is basically the reason has said that it is just the purchase of a why this has come forward as a lottery tombola ticket and nothing more. The allied to providing more facilities for sport­ difference — and if nobody can see it I ing activities. A lot has been said this after­ must stress it again — is that in this case noon, and I could go on for a considerable it is Government sponsored, that is the period of time on the principle of the difference. You are, as members of this argument as to whether or not we should hon. Court, saying to your constituents, have a Government sponsored lottery — saying to the people of the Isle of Man, we and I would suggest to members that that are prepared above all else to put money is the difference, it is a Government spon­ to the fore in raising it in this sort of form. sored lottery — whether or not we should We should say to the people of the Isle have it as a basic principle. You see, I am of Man, as I told you at the Millennium one of those very fortunate people, being lottery time, if you want to give it the reasonably healthy and still able to enjoy support, give it the support honestly. Do myself in sporting activities. As members it, as the hon. members for Peel and Garff have said, the hon. member, Mrs. Hanson, have said, by the honest method of taxa­ and, in fact, the hon. mover has commen­ tion. Let us never be afraid of doing that ted on the amount of young people today if it is utterly necessary. Let us never have who are actively engaged in athletics or to say in this Court, as certainly I will that type of outdoor physical activity. Even always oppose in this Court saying that this last Sunday afternoon alone, I, my­ anything has to be supported by a self, was happy to join with about 130 of gambling procedure, and that is basically them on a Sunday afternoon out for their what it comes down to yet again. Can I enjoyment — and that was without the also try to persuade my hon. friend and mums and dads — in good, physical, colleague, the Chairman of the Board of wholesome activity. I think those were the Education, and I have just got a little bit

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of doubt in my mind at the moment that particular function — I would far prefer to she herself may be a waverer. Mrs. Hanson, support the Sports Council when it comes you have used the words that you do not back in the Budget next year for an in ­ like the idea of gambling as Chairman of creased Budget. The simple reason is that the Board of Education. I can just ask I must commend them because I do not you, stick to the principle, and be, as I know how they manage to get so much said to the hon. member for Middle, honest mileage out of so little money. I had the to yourself and to the school children of privilege nearly 10 years ago now, when the Isle of Man, and vote against the I was living in England, to serve on a resolution, bearing in mind that the committee that was looking into hardship difference is that this is Government spon­ in families in the area in which I was sored. You are putting the seal of living because there had been a massive authority on it and you are, whether you council estate built on the outskirts of the like it or not, going to detract from other town and people had been moved into that sporting clubs’ methods of raising finance. area from way over the other side of Man­ The hon. member who has recently re­ chester, and one of the biggest single sumed his seat, speaking immediately factors in financial problems with the before me, the hon. member, Mr. Moore, families was the bingo in the particular of course, he has used the words, I will area, and I was astonished, maybe naively, support it if, in fact, it is a decent cause. to discover that so much money was spent Well, it is such a wishy-washy way of ex­ by so many people pursuing bingo. In the pressing what is going to be a decent past I had rated it just as a hobby, just cause. We could all, each individual mem­ as an innocuous occupation, and although ber here, say, we want this, we want that, I was a full-hearted supporter of the Mil­ we want the other, and they would all be lennium lottery and believe that it has decent causes. But just to say, basically, come to some good, I would find myself that this is a decent cause so we must very hard pushed to support perpetuating have a lottery to raise the finance, that is the thing continually here in the Isle of a poor argument indeed in my book for Man, because there is a reason. It says saying that he can support it. Maybe even that this motion does not refer to sport at he will change his mind if, in fact, a all, as I said before, it just refers to the division is called because I think the principle of having a lottery. And it says, whole of the members should vote against quite correctly, that it would be approved it. by Tynwald from time to time. Well, we all Mr. Watterson: Your Excellency, I have know here what happens with a busy two children, one of seven and one of Agenda. In fact, we approved items 10 to nine, and the seven-year-old spends a 21 today in a matter of about two minutes. great deal of time during the summer down Any one of those could well have been, if at the very athletic activity that the hon. there had been a juicy item to get to a member who has proposed this motion little later on, a proposition for what was referring to, and at the moment, in appeared to be an innocent lottery. I would the winter, enjoys football on a Saturday far prefer to see that if it is decided that morning, and, as I have said, he is seven, we should support another one of these and the daughter who is nine does a great ventures, that it should be done, if neces­ deal of swimming. I tire myself out by sary, by the long-winded and cumbersome watching them! The point I would make procedure with which we had to bring the here is that this motion, as much as I Millennium lottery forward to this particular would support sport for the young people, Tynwald, to make sure that if this Court — and do, as the hon. member will re­ decides that it is going to have one it member, he met me down there at this knows what it is doing. Therefore, I would

Public Lottery — Declaratory Resolution Defeated. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T255 suggest that this particular motion should resolution is in the word "success” . It not be accepted because I agree with says here: "Tynwald, having noted the the hon. member for Garff, we cannot be success and popularity of the Millennium hypocritical, we either have to take a stand instant public lottery among both residents on one thing or the other. We have and visitors ...” One of the things that allowed the Millennium lottery, it has struck me through this whole debate was served a purpose, it is quite obvious that the speech by the hon. member for Peel. there have been flaws in it. If the legisla­ Dr. Moore said “at this present time” — tion does not permit children under 16 and here we come to residents. If you think to buy tickets then there is something that our residents are not likely to get into definitely wrong because I have seen many difficuties through this, at the present time children buying them and, therefore, I £2,000 a day is being spent on this lottery. would not like to see this going through I have caused this to be checked and I find any further. So I would suggest, whether this is true. £2,000 a day, 8,000 tickets a it be the Arts Council, whether it be the day, nearly 50,000 tickets a week in the Sports Council, or whoever it may be, if they winter-time are being sold. Does this not decide that they would like a lottery in cause you some alarm? If it does not it future, they should come back with a should do. My gracious me, have no doubt specific issue and not what I see as a about it, I am making this statement again carte blanche approval to lotteries in in case any of the Finance Board or any­ general which will carry on ad infinitum. one should dare to challenge it, it is true, £2,000 each day in the winter-time is being Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I was spent, and at the present day. So I would reminded a few minutes ago by my hon. say to you, this has reached dangerous friend, Mr. Simcocks, that this reminded proportions, very dangerous propor­ him and I of a debate that took place just tions, and we should leave well alone. 20 years ago when it was suggested that We have received the success, we they should have a lottery in the Isle of should leave it well alone. And I do say Man. At that time it was a lottery to save this. If we pass this resolution in this way, the economy of the Isle of Man and it was not only does our friend from the Sports going to bring in hundreds of thousands of Council come along, but all the people pounds. The net result was, of course, that that the hon. member for Middle, Mr. Callin, that lottery failed and the Government had has mentioned, they too will want to have to bail it out. There is no danger, I know, their particular lotteries, or would want a of things like that happening, but we have high proportion. Now, how are we going to had difficulties with the lottery. This one, suggest whether it should be the Corin­ however, in the terms of the resolution, thians Football Club or whether it should whereas many speakers have spoken about be Oxfam that should get the major share? success of sport and the desire for sport, We are going to be inundated with people this is nothing to do with sport at all. We saying, “ I want to get a part of this £2,000 have all put our hands up for these sport­ a day, we will be set up for life if we get ing activities and the sooner the Chairman some of this.” I would urge the Court that of the Sports Council comes forward with we should have nothing to do with this. a resolution, he wants to note what has Think of one thing only before you come been said today, and we will be ready to to vote. It allows the people in the Isle of put both our hands up for these particular Man to spend at this time of year, the resi­ causes for which he so rightly stands up. dent people, £2,000 a day. These are We admire the work that has already been dangerous proportions. done and we will try to perpetuate that work and get greater facilities for our Mr. Kermeen: We are not here, Your Ex­ young people. The great danger in this cellency, as moralists but as legislators,

Public Lottery — Declaratory Resolution Defeated. T256 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 and I think we have got to look at this fallacy when he says that because one- matter as legislators, as, in fact, the admini­ armed bandits may be worse, lottery strators of government in this Island. Civi­ tickets are better. That again is a trap we lised Governments for a long time have could fail into. I feel that we are embark­ regarded that there are certain socially un­ ing, possibly, on a primrose path this desirable pursuits, pursuits which cannot afternoon, very insidious, very persuasive be stopped but at least can be controlled. — when all is said and done it is only Gambling and drinking are two examples. 25 pence. This year we have set our feet A Gaming Board of Control has been set on the path and I hope we will halt before up and l can appreciate why the Chairman the descent becomes too steep. of the Board in this instance would not wish to participate in this debate. But it Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, very exists to control gambling. I would like to briefly, speaking as the member for Michael know, however, how far the Millennium and not as Chairman of the Gaming Board, lottery, admittedly a success, admittedly I must confess I, too, am in quite a there have been complimentary references dilemma over this. I am a great believer in to Finance Board for running it — and we moderation in all things. I am not in favour have put aside all other matters but running of hard gaming although it is part of my it successfully — but how far has this, in duties. I was appointed by this Court to fact, disorientated the whole pattern of supervise and administrate it. I, too, like gambling in this Island? I do feel that while the hon. member for Council, Mr. Moore, we can control forms of gambling by licen­ patronise Christmas charities, church sing betting shops, casinos, and so on, raffles, and the like, and when I read this we are wrong to actually participate in the resolution on the Agenda it was my inten­ business of gambling permanently. It has tion to support it, and I had thought that been a "one-off" exercise this year. Men­ one answer to possible objections to tion has been brought into this debate of mediate against the harm that this might do the support for sport, and here again the to the minor fund-raising efforts would be hon. mover of this resolution has men­ that they would be invited to participate as tioned fund-raising. Look at the response ticket sellers and, therefore, would be to the Millennium Appeal Fund from private assured of some income. However, I must individuals. I know a lot of people have confess I have been swayed by what the facetiously said to me, “ Can you see me hon. member for Peel had to say, and it contributing to anything that Sir John may be that the very difficulty over this Bolton runs?” (Laughter.) But that is lottery has been its success. Although I beside the point. The point is here, fund­ am reluctant to change my mind, I shall raising immediately diminishes when there not be supporting it. is accent on gambling as a source of reve­ nue, and we are discouraging people, Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I think it is young people, from some sort of financial fairly easy to judge the reaction of the suooort for their own soorting activities. Court on the motion on the Agenda today. I Half the fun, as I remember as a bov, when would like to say one thing, and l would we played football, cricket, badminton and like hon. members to understand it, so, so on, was the sacrifice in paying for the as they say, hear this. I believe, or at game itself. Are we going to feather-bed least mv main concern, frankly, is the pro­ them? The trouble here is that the trap has vision of adequate facilities for sport, recre­ been set and the question will be put, if ation and leisure pursuits in the Isle of you vote against this vou are voting aqainst Man. That is the first priority with me this sport for young people. I refuse to fall into afternoon: the second is the continuation that trap. The hon. member for Glenfaba, of the lottery. But to me the continuation of Mr. Quirk, I think has entered upon a the lottery is merely to find the money for

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the provision of sporting facilities. Hon. The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. members have given an indication this members? afternoon of their great interest in sport in the Isle of Man. Members: No, no.

Members: Hear, hear. Mr. Kneale: Vote.

Mr. Irving: This has happened a couple The Governor: A motion may be with­ of times recently in this Court. I am drawn with the leave of the Court. You had absolutely delighted. I hope I have not better put that to the vote first, I think. wasted hon. members’ time too much this afternoon. I am absolutely delighted with In the Keys: the reaction. I will say this, that I was tempted at one time, if this motion failed For: Messrs. Quirk, J. J. Radcliffe, J. N. this afternoon, to consider the view of hon. Radcliffe, Callin, Watterson, Walker, members was they did not want a Govern­ Quinney, Delaney, Irving and Christian ment Bill to extend the lottery, that they — 10. might consider a Private Member’s Bill. That, obviously, is quite wrong. My atti­ Against: Mr. Anderson, Dr. Mann, Messrs. tude now is, if by any chance hon. mem­ Creer, Cringle, Craine, Mrs. Hanson, bers do not vote for this motion this after­ Mr. Kermeen, Dr. Moore and Mr. noon, that I am coming back to this Court Swales— 9. with proposals, ambitious proposals for Government to put more money into the Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, the motion question of sporting facilities. has been carried in the House of Keys, 10 votes being cast in favour and nine Members: Hear, hear. votes against. Mr. Irving: Some hon. members feel that they are reluctant to vote against this In the Council: motion because it would indicate no inte­ rest in sport in the Isle of Man. That would For: Messrs. Crellin, Moore and Sim­ be quite wrong, that would be quite wrong cocks— 3. indeed. And this is against myself, but hon. members who vote against it, I am sure Against: The Lord Bishop, Sir John when I come forward with these proposals Bolton, Messrs. Kneale, Nivison and for more Government money to be put into Kerruish— 5. sport, I am sure they will agree. I could not care less, but if it makes any hon. The Governor: In the Council, five members feel better and will ensure that the against and three in favour. The motion wrong impression does not get out of this to withdraw therefore fails. The motion now Court, I would be very happy to withdraw stands before the Court. Will those in my motion. (Interruptions.) I do not mind. I favour please say aye; against, no. wonder if hon. members would agree to a withdrawal of the motion? It does not A division was called for and voting matter to me. I do not want the wrong resulted as follows:— impression to go out of this Court, that because an hon. member who genuinely is In the Keys: opposed to gambing should vote against this, that he is not interested in sport: I For: Messrs. Quirk, Craine, Irving and beg leave to withdraw the motion. Swales— 4.

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Against: Messrs. Anderson, J. J. Rad­ its original resolution to hold and celebrate cliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Dr. Mann, 1,000 years of continuous parliamentary Messrs. Callin, Watterson, Creer, system. If you are holding a celebration or Walker, Cringle, Quinney, Delaney, a party you invite all the family, including Mrs. Hanson, Mr. Kermeen, Dr. the granny. Just because granny cannot Moore and Mr. Christian— 15. happen to make it you do not refuse to send her an invitation. I am delighted as Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, the motion a member of this Court in Millennium Year has been lost in the House of Keys, four to have seen the success that the Island votes in favour and 15 votes against. has enjoyed with publicity all over the world, and by the number of extra visitors In the Council: that have come to our shores to see what this Island is celebrating, its 1,000th anni­ For: Messrs. Crellin, Moore and Sim­ versary. I feel that it is necessary, as it will cocks— 3. only happen once every 1,000 years, to include in the celebration those people Against: The Lord Bishop, Sir John who have put the most into the community, Bolton, Messrs. Kneale, Nivison and who have lived the longest on this Island, Kerruish— 5. and have put their working lives into build­ ing up part of what we are celebrating. The Governor: In the Council, three When moving this resolution I have left it in favour and five against. The motion, open-ended and subject to many criticisms therefore, fails to carry. and much debate, and I have done that purposely. I have not looked to put down four lines that would simply say, give the pensioners of the Isle of Man something MILLENNIUM MEMENTOES TO to look back on for the rest of their lives, PERSONS OF PENSIONABLE AGE — such as a £5 note. It would have been very MOTION DEFERRED TO DECEMBER easy to do that and then it would come to SITTING. the “ argy-bargy” which will still ensue. The history of Government has been one of The Governor: Item No. 23. The hon. giving when we have to give, but never member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney. give more than anyone asks for, and I, as a member of this Court, and in my mani­ Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I beg to festo I said I would do what I could for move:— those people who are least equipped to look after themselves, and during my term Having successfully celebrated Its Mil­ of office I would do so. Many members lennium in the company of royal and pres­ also said in their manifestoes they would tigious persons and marked the occasion take the opportunity to look after the senior by presenting to the children of the Island citizens of this Island but, unfortunately, valuable sets of coins and in other ways, Jike myself, there is very little oppor­ Tynwald is of opinion that it is desirable tunity to do so, very little indeed, to include in the celebrations persons who because our pension system is tied have been resident in the Island for not less to the British Government, not because than 10 years and who have attained a pen­ this hon. Court decided it that way, sionable age by giving to each ol them it is because of the time and place origi­ a Millennium memento to the value of £5.00. nally designated for that purpose which was, of course, the British Government. The resolution before this hon. Court this They, at this moment in time, are going afternoon is to keep the Court in touch with through what has been termed a recession,

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besides a new game they are playing in tain that that which has been established Westminster, rent-a-spy — (laughter) — seems to work. The resolution itself also but they are certainly going into a reces­ has a section in it that mentions a 10 year sion, and I would say that as we are a residential qualification and I have done Government — and I could quote from that on purpose because it has been said different Hansard records— having success many times in this Court that it is the in all spheres due to the ingenuity of Fin­ Manx people who celebrated the Millen­ ance Board, which I am prepared to sup­ nium of Tynwald, and I refer to the hon. port when they support me — (laughter) member of Council, Mr. MacDonald, who — Finance Board and Tynwald — and has unfortunately left our company this never look a gift horse in the mouth, due afternoon, I would quote from Hansard to their support and their efforts they have what he said when we were debating a created for the Isle of Man, by their own Tynwald resolution to form a committee. terms and their own speeches in this “Your Excellency, I will be quite brief. I Court, a successful and growing economy fully support this. The only thing I would and if we have that, and they say we have, not like it to become is a gimmick. I think we should ensure, as the Chairman of the it is the Manx people who should be cele­ Finance Board said at the Budget debate, brating.” Well, we are celebrating and have all sections of the community, as he been celebrating this last 10 months but, believes himself — unfortunately he is not unfortunately, the pensioners have been here today but I am sure his Vice-Chair­ left out. I am sure it was not intentional man will agree with me, I will pass him so I am going to rectify that this afternoon. up the Hansard record if he likes — should I hope the members of the Court also agree get shares in what is going, and that is with me that what we are talking about in what we are talking about, shares. There financial terms, and my hon. friend, and a is no better way of showing a suc­ good friend, the Vice-Chairman of the Fin­ cessful economy than to give to ance Board — (laughter) — said to me those people who have not got the only a couple of months back, "We want time or cannot stand up for themselves, facts." Well, I will give you some facts. and in the Isle of Man, unfortunately, people The fact is, this year we have increased do not stand up for themselves, parti­ pensions by £4 and I have gone to the cularly not the old, the senior citizens, so trouble, as I always do, by the way, of it is our job to do so. Sir John Bolton will going to your department as it concerns be leaving us shortly and I would like him your department and getting some percent­ to take as a memento of his stay in this ages because you asked for facts. Millennium Year of Tynwald — (laughter) — a £5 note or equivalent in some sort of Mr. Crellin: You got your pen there, too, cash. He has said many times, and I have by the look of it. (Laughter.) sat in that public gallery over the years, why should the millionaire get what he Mr. Delaney: I never knew that people does not need if the poor man needs it? from the promised land had reached such Well, I can tell him. After reading all the exalted heights of the Finance Board, but debates, the reason is because in the Isle they obviously have I (Laughter.) The of Man we have a society that is geared situation is, there is no doubt, hon. mem­ that way. You only have to look at a memo­ bers, that inflation, as we all accept, has randum which came out today about pre­ gone overboard. In the last figures submit­ scription charges. The millionaire will still ted by the Finance Board on the prices pay the same fee as the pauper, unless he index, we are looking now at a figure in is on social security or suoplementary the region of 17.9 to 18 per cent., and benefit, so therefore it is established. I did those figures, seriously now, do not include not establish it, you did, and I must main­ the increases which have been mentioned

Millennium Mementos to Persons of Pensionable Age — Motion Deferred to December Sitting. T260 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

today in this Court — the price of a bag — and I do not refer to the members of of coal, 40 pence a bag, and as one other the Executive Council or the Upper House. member said it takes two bags a week to I am referring to those people in the Island, heat a house — they are not my figures 7,000 — these are figures supplied by the — so that is 80 pence increase alone on Board of Social Security — of our own fuel charges. How can we really say we people who have not had anything, and I have celebrated a successful Government, believe that a lot of them have not been knowing that after paying them the £4 in­ able to afford to celebrate Millennium Year. crease in pensions this year inflation will They have not been able to go to the be running, by British Government stan­ events we have put on — the tattoo, the dards, at 18 to 20 per cent.? When the time cost of getting there, the cost of getting in. comes to get the next increase in pension We had a marvellous time, what did you they are going to be somewhere in the do? They had no buses to take them. You region of £4 a week worse off, because if can see the problem, hon. members. Let we are going to play the percentages game us just do something, and I would say this, that is what we are talking about. By this of all the things in Millennium that are time next year, if inflation stays at the going to be remembered at the moment, same figure, they are going to be that £4 whether it be statues or whether it be a week we give them worse off in actual Highland Balls, or whatever it may be, purchasing power, and I would say that as the thing they will remember is that we a gesture, at least we could say at the looked after our own. There have been end of this successful year, well, it is 1,000 kings and queens and in-betweens — years, it only happens once, here we have (laughter) — there certainly have not been a situation where £60,000 could do what many of our own and for £60,000, as was this Government has been trying to do for put today once again, the cost of putting the last three years, be a caring Govern­ lean cattle — and I am talking about lean ment. Many times in Hansard I can read people — (laughter) — £60,000 will do members’ remarks — but time is drawing the trick for once in a lifetime. I am not on — about how they have said we should going to say that I will bring it back every be a caring society or we are a caring year because I will not. I will bring it this society, of how some people are not get­ year and it is up to the members of the ting enough, what can we do? I tell you Court to decide whether £60,000, which is what you can do, you can vote this after­ not in the estimates, just like the £60,000 noon and you can change this resolution for the Fatstock Marketing Association was any way you want, and I make no bones not in the estimates. I am asking for that about it. My object is to get some cash this afternoon and members can move payment, or cash in kind, to those people amendments if they wish but the facts in the Island who have put the most into speak for themselves. Since 1976, and I the community. I do not make any bones went back as far as that, on percentage about that. increases in pensions, coming through to the present day, with the new increase, — Mr. Irving: It does not mention cash. and I am sure you will make a note of this, Mr. Delaney: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I can hon. Vice-Chairman of Finance Board, the soon amend that myself as mover of the total figure, the increase in single pension, resolution. I will see which way the cookie 1976 to 1979, with this increase, is 75.2 crumbles before I move because there are per cent. With this increase, with inflation other members like myself, Mr. Acting- at the last figures for the same period from Speaker, who are aware that after celebrat­ 1976, on food alone there is 57 per cent, ing this year successfully they would like and if we have an 18 per cent, inflation to put something to those people in the figure this year, they are worse off even Isle of Man who have put the most into it in purchasing power, and we know what is

Millennium Mementos to Persons of Pensionable Age — Motion Deferred to December Sitting. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T261 going on, we are all aware of what is hap­ Board of Social Security, together with pening, so I would say to members, I will the mover, who might meet and put some not read the rest of the figures because definite proposal before us at the Decem­ they all show the same comparisons really, ber Tynwald, rather than this memento. It that we are in buying power getting behind, would be quite wrong of us to change it because we are one year behind in paying at the drop of a hat. We might find we pension increases. We are paying twice are doing the completely wrong thing and I now, we have paid £8, we will be coming would hope that some serious consideration somewhere towards giving them a little should be given to this and I move that it extra, since 1976. I hope that members will be deferred until the December Tynwald. support this. I wiil support any amendment that actually finishes up by giving the pen­ Mr. Anderson: I beg to second that, Your sioners of the Isle of Man some payment Excellency, and point out that, in fact, I as a memento of Millennium Year. It is wide have heard the hon. member for Council, open and I will leave it to the floor of the Mr. Moore, suggest a way which I think Court and ask for someone to second my could achieve this much better. An amount resolution. of the Millennium money collected should be put into something in perpetuity which Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: I beg to second, Your could give those who need help in society Excellency, and reserve my remarks. the help with electricity during the winter months, not just this year but during the Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I would years to come, and I think this is one of like to move that this resolution be deferred the areas that could be looked at. for one month, until December, until such time as we could get this clarified. It says, Mr. Delaney: On a point of clarification, I “ Millennium memento” . Now that could be have already checked on that. They cannot an ashtray or it could be a teddy bear, or do that. I would love to do that but that is it could be a £5 note or whatever it could not the case. The case is that if you would be. Some would be greatly appreciated like to do what has been suggested, delete and I am sure all of us subscribe to many memento and let us start bringing it down. of the things that the hon. member has stated, but some of these mementoes, if The Governor: Is it agreed that the reso­ you were to give them to many of the lution should be deferred until next month? people, would not be appreciated at all and would be condemned by many people It was agreed. as a complete and utter waste of money. There are some 13,000 to 14,000 old age Mr. Delaney: Are we going to be allowed and retirement pensioners and it was esti­ to speak on this? mated that this might cost some £60,000 to £70,000. I move, sincerely, that it should The Governor: Yes, surely, if you wish to. be deferred until December in order that the Finance Board and perhaps the Board Mr. Delaney: Yes, sir, I will. We have not of Social Security representatives, together had a chance to vote, you see. My object with the mover, might come forward with was to vote, to say yes. Therefore, I take it some definite resolution. that Tynwald accepts this resolution or the idea of it. Mr. Irving: The Millennium Committee? Members: No. Mr. Nivison: A representative of the Millennium Committee, a representative of The Governor: The motion before the the Finance Board, a representative of the Court, which has been proposed and

Millennium Mementos to Persons of Pensionable Age — Motion Deferred to December Sitting. T262 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979

seconded, is that the motion should be Order 162(1) be waived to enable the deferred so that further consideration can following resolution to be considered. be given to it, and it should be taken next month. Is that agreed, hon. members? (2) That the Licensing (No. 14) Order 1979 made by His Excellency the Lieuten­ It was agreed. ant Governor on the 9th November 1979 be and the same is hereby approved.

The Order is to permit intoxicating liquor SUPPLEMENTARY AGENDA — to be sold at the Foxdale Hotel between SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS. two o’clock and six o’clock on Sunday, 16th December 1979. Hon. members may The Governor: We have a Supplemen­ recall that an Order was agreed by Tynwald tary Agenda. I call on the Chairman of last year to allow the Isle of Man Licensed Executive Council. Victuallers Ladies Auxiliary to hold a garden party on a Sunday at this hotel. I would like Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to to make it quite clear that this Order is move:— really intended to apply to members of the Ladies Auxiliary, together with their That permission be granted under husbands and together only with those per­ Standing Order 27(6) for the following sons who have presented prizes for the business to be considered. charitable effort and the persons who are there to receive the cheques as a The business is that set out on the result of the activities of the Ladies Supplementary Agenda. Auxiliary. In no way will the ordinary public The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. mem­ be allowed to use the facilities of the bers? Foxdale Hotel for drinking between two o’clock and six o’clock on Sunday, 16th It was agreed. December. It is purely for the members and other persons which I have mentioned. It is necessary, I believe, to have this par­ ticular function on a Sunday because the PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT. persons concerned are normally involved in keeping their public houses open at The Governor: I call upon the Clerk to other times, and I would tell hon. members lay papers. that in this case, due to the splendid work of the Licensed Victuallers Ladies Auxi'iary, The Clerk: Your Excellency, I lay before there will be several thousand pounds to the Court the Licensing (No. 14) Order be disposed of to local charities on this 1979. particular day. I beg to move, sir.

Mr. Moore: I beg to second.

LICENSING (NO. 14) ORDER 1979 Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I realise it — APPROVED. is 20 minutes to seven, so I will be very, very brief indeed. I would just say that person­ Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to ally, although I can appreciate very much move:— indeed the good work done by the ladies of the Licensed Victuallers Auxiliary in so far (1) That in accordance with Standing as they have raised a sum of £12,000 or Order 162(3) the provisions of Standing whatever it is for various charities, I do

Supplementary Agenda — Suspension of Standing Orders. — Papers Laid before the Court. — Licensing (No. 14) Order 1979 — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 20, 1979 T263 think it is a shame that they have to come feel they can afford to have a private party in front of Tynwald Court to ask for a off licensed premises, but if they are going Licensing Order to be approved to permit to do this there must be facilities for the them, of all people, to have licensing people involved, that is the members, their facilities on the Sunday afternoon exten­ spouses, the people who have given prizes sion when it is purely for their own party, and the people who are receiving dona­ and that is the point which the hon. mover tions, to be able to buy a drink and that has stressed. These are people who are is the whole purpose of the Order. I hope involved in the licensing trade and one hon. members will agree, sir. would have thought, in fairness, that they may have liked an afternoon off, rather The Governor: I put the question. Those than an afternoon in. I will be voting in favour please say aye; against, no. against the resolution. Mr. Cringle: Will you record me against, Mr. Anderson: I cannot understand why please, Your Excellency? these people cannot have a private party at which this can be done, without having It was agreed. a licence to stay open. They can take all the stuff they want with them and there is The Governor: That concludes our no reason whatever why they cannot do business, hon. members. The Council will it. withdraw and leave the hon. Mr. Acting- Speaker to put such business to the Keys Mr. Irving: One of the first questions I as he may wish. asked was similar to the hon. member’s but when one considers it, it would be quite illegal for them to drink in licensed premises at that particular time without this Order. They do not feel that they can HOUSE OF KEYS afford to make it a free party where every­ body outside, let us put it this way, — The Acting-Speaker: Hon. members, the (laughter)— I have to be careful with the House will stand adjourned until Tuesday, hon. member because, after all, it is in 27th November, at 10.30 a.m. in the Keys his constituency too. These people do nol C ham bei.

Licensing (No. 14) Order 1979 — Approved. — House of Keys.