REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF HOUSE OF KEYS

Douglas, Tuesday, October 23, 1979, at 10.30 a.m.

Present: The Acting-Speaker, Mr. E. C. before the House is the Governor's General Irving, Messrs. R. J. G. Anderson, W. K. Functions (Transfer) Bill for consideration Quirk, J. J. Radcliffe, P. Radcliffe, J. N. of Council amendments. I call upon the Radcliffe, Dr. E. J. Mann, Messrs, A. A. hon. member for West Douglas, Mr. Ker- Catlin, R. L. Watterson, J. R. Greer, E. G. meen. Lowey, M. R. Walker, N. Q. Cringle, Mrs. E. C. Quayle, Messrs. G. A. Quinney, M.B.E., Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I beg E. M. Ward, B.E.M., P. A. Craine, D. F. K. to move that the House approves the Coun- Delaney, Mrs B. Q. Hanson, Mr. T. E. cil amendments. Will you accept, sir, that Kermeen, I.S.O., Dr. D. L. Moore, M.A., my references are to the reprinted Bill con- Ph.D., Messrs. J. J. Christian, G. C. Swales, taining the Keys' amendments. The first with Mr: R. B. M. Quayle, Secretary of the amendment is simply a textual amendment. House. The second restores the original text of the Bill as introduced by me in the House. Mr. COURT OF UNIVERSITY OF Acting-Speaker, you will recollect that the LANCASTER — MR. DELANEY hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Cringle, APPOINTED MEMBER moved an amendment at the clause stage on the 30th January last in this House. Han- The Acting-Speaker: Hon. members, the sard records the debate at page K287 first business before the House is the when Mr. Cringle's amendment was carried appointment of one member to the Court of by 15 votes to five. My contention at that the University of Lancaster. I call for nomi- time has met with the agreement of the nations, please. Legislative Council. The learned Attorney- General explained the point succinctly to Mr. Kermeen: I nominate the hon. Council on the 22nd May and with your member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney. permission, Mr. Acting-Speaker, and that of the House, may I quote it. He said, " . . . Mr. Lowey: I would like to second that obviously, it would be improper there to nomination, sir. have the Board in two places although in The Acting-Speaker: Are there any the rest of this Act we have substituted the further nominations? Then Mr. Delaney has Board of Social Security in place of the been appointed a member of the Court of Governor, so we are putting there, as the the University of Lancaster. approving authority, the Finance Board in- stead of the Board of Social Security, so it GOVERNOR'S GENERAL FUNCTIONS would be 'such amounts as the Board', that (TRANSFER) BILL — COUNCIL is the Board of Social Security, 'may, with AMENDMENTS AGREED. the approval of the Finance Board . . ' It is a very minor point really but it is just The Acting-Speaker: The next business to clarify the situation or the Board of Social

Court of University of Lancaster—Mr. Delaney Appointed Member. —Governor's General Functions (Transfer) Bill—Council Amendments Agreed. K4 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979

Security would be in there twice." Schedule trust that these issues are now resolved and 2 or the Second Schedule, the hon. the contents of this important Bill agreed member had a certain view on this. The by both Branches can now proceed for learned Attorney-General and the Council signature and Royal Assent. I so move. favoured the first alternative and that is now the term used in designating the numbering Mr. P. Radcliffe: I beg to second and of Schedules. Now, paragraph 148 of the reserve my remarks. Bill — financial assistance to the Isle of Man Residential Homes Association pro- Mr. Cringle: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I just vided by Tynwald. Again I opposed the hon. want to briefly comment on this as I was member, Mr. Cringle, and the contending responsible in some respect for the original views appear clearly in the record along amendments but the point I was trying to with the support accorded Mr. Cringle by make, and to some extent still feel, is that this House — 13 votes to seven. The the Board of Social Security, in fact, have Council preferred the original text and it is been making certain grants to other private helpful here again to read the learned homes on the grounds, of course, that it is Attorney-General's op'nion. "The next one is better for us to keep them there than it to entry 148:— 'For entry 148, as originally would be if we were to take them into our numbered, substitute — In section 11(a) own homes, and, working on those grounds, for "the Governor", where first occurring, we felt there was, possibly, justification for substitute "Tynwald"; and (b) for "Gover- ease of management but, basically, I do not nor" (except where first occurring) substi- think it will make a lot difference. tute "Board".' This is the Isle of Man Residential Homes Association Act of The Acting-Speaker: Does any other hon. 1948 and that is a similar point, a technical member wish to speak? If not I will put the point again. In section 11 it reads. 'Should question which is that the House accepts Tynwald provide any financial assistance the Council's amendments to the towards the funds of the Association, the Governor's General Functions (Transfer) Governor may make it a condition' and our Bill. All those in favour please say aye; view is that if Tynwald decides to provide against, no. The ayes have it. financial assistance, Tynwald should make the conditions and so the amendment is to insert 'Tynwald' in place of the Governor in this part of the Act. The House of Keys has, ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL in fact, inserted the Board of Social Secu- —THIRD READING APPROVED. rity as making the conditions but it is felt that Tynwald is the correct description The Acting-Speaker: The next business there." Paragraph 289 relates to an admini- before the House is the third reading of the strative matter concerning the Joint Elec- Administration of Justice Bill and I call upon tricity Authority. The provisions regarding the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. Ander- subsection (2) which it is proposed to son. delete have been overtaken by the forth- coming amending legislation about this Mr. Anderson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, it is body and are no longer required to be with some considerable regret that I note amended. Finally, paragraph 304, amending that the original Bill was printed and the Education Act. The effect of the Coun- brought before this hon. House in Novem- cil's amendment which came up on the third ber 1977. It has taken a long time to find reading in the Council is set out in a memo- its way to the floor of the House for its randum circulated by the learned Attorney- third reading and you will well remember General. It was confined to Council mem- that I did press hon. members at the last bers and not repeated in public debate. I sitting of this hon. House to have the third

Administration of Justice Bill—Third Reading Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K5 reading at that time because I was aware will expedite the work of the courts in deal- that there were certain aspects of the Bill ing with those problems. But what I am which were essential for the justice work to even more concerned about are the single be done in certain sections of the com- parent families where there are difficulties munity in relation to matrimonial problems. in meeting commitments and this is the I do hope that when it is forwarded to main reason why I want to see this Bill another place it will receive speedy atten- expedited as quickly as possible and on tion and will quickly be on the Statute Book. the Statute Book because we are aware It will be remembered that when I brought that there are people who are suffering this Bill before hon. members there were grave injustice at the present time. The certain aspects of it that they did not like. attachment of earnings, which is one of the They did not like the aspect of the Bill main features of the Bill, I hope will indeed which was going to abolish the right of the make a great difference and even though High Bailiff to deal with fines which at that they pass from job to job, that that attach- time were restricted to £2 or £4, I think it ment of earnings could be on-going and was. Now the situation has been altered. that it will be a more effective way of deal- The Bill, as printed, was not accepted nor ing with the situation. We have discussed was it accepted that there would be a new it so much that I do not think there is any- office for the collection of debts but that the thing further I can say on the Bill, other office of the Clerk to the Magistrates would than to formally move the third reading. be the supervisory office using the existing machinery of the coroners and lockmen to Mr. Delaney: I beg to second and reserve do the work on, I hope, a new basis as far my remarks. as their expenses were concerned. Cer- tainly at the moment, even with revised Dr. Mann: Mr. Acting-Speaker, may I just amounts which they are allowed and are ask two points for clarification? I know this being paid, they are certainly still under- is very late, the course of this Bill, but I paid but I hope that this will bring it now think the House welcomes the report of the into a correct context. We are aware that Committee set up under this Bill and I am the new Bill has given the High-Bailiff's sure will welcome the Bill in its present re- court the right to go, as far as fines are printed form. In the enforcement office concerned, to £400 and we believe that this which is, after all, the centrepiece of the will expedite the work of the courts where collection, the compromise in this Bill is there was a very big backlog in the High very welcome and seems to be a method Court as far as clearing claims of this by which we will incorporate the old and nature were concerned. A Committee was the new together. In clause 3, sub- set up and over a long period of time and clause (2), where it says, "The office after a lot of consideration we put forward shall consist of the following persons, the amendments. There were so many the appointment of each of whom shall be amendments, you will remember, it was subject to the approval of the Civil Service decided to reprint the Bill and we have this Commission . . . ", is it the intention, in morning the reprinted Bill before us which actual fact, to make the coroners and lock- is considerably different from the original men actual civil servants? Is it the inten- Bill. It took a lot of time to thrash out the tion to, in fact, relate them to a civil service differences of opinion within the Commit- grade so that we can get away from this tee and the only hope that I have now is constant discrepancy over their pay and that this will be machinery which will work allowances which seems to be a source of effectively because it is important. It is grievance to them and I think if we are important from the Government's point of going to start a new system, we really want view because there are considerable to get this off with as little grievance as moneys outstanding and we hope that this possible amongst the people who are to

Administration of Justice Bill—Third Reading Approved. K6 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 operate it. So is there an assurance that this is the machinery by which they will the Civil Service Commission will relate the function. Now, in answer to the hon. mem- coroners and lockmen to a specific civil ber for Garff, Dr. Mann, as far as the service grade? The other point is in clause lockmen and coroners are concerned, I 8, where it gives an immunity to enforce- do not think they will be quite civil ser- ment officers against being sued, either for vants in the normal way but when new acts of negligence or acts of commission. I appointments are made in the future I, am not quite certain whether, in fact, we personally, would like to see this becom- should be giving this carte blanche, as you ing, not something that is just a job for a might say, to enforcement officers for im- retired officer from some other service but munity against being sued for acts that that it becomes a job in its own right so they perform, as distinct from acts that that it is not looked upon as a sideline but they do not perform and I would like an it is that man's responsibility and relating assurance from the mover that he still will to the responsibility there are parts of the have civil responsibilities in his acts during Bill which cover such responsibility but the collection of debts. It is one thing to you have got to cover him in relation to take immunity against acts of omission but the collection of debt as far as civil actions this is giving him immunity for acts of com- are concerned because these could be mission as well. very considerable and it could be quite an onerous task and he would not have any Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I protection whatever because there may be would just like to seek a point of clarifica- circumstances, with the best will in the tion from the hon. member who has moved world, where he is unable to get back all this reading, if I may. I think by a slip of the moneys that are outstanding of behalf the tongue he referred to the increase in of some people. But I believe that there is the civil jurisdiction of the High-Bailiff. If written into the Bill protection against I heard him rightly he used the word "fine" abuse of that office by officers under the and I feel sure he meant "debt", just to civil court as it is, under the Clerk of the clarify it for the record. Justices. He will be the supervisory officer. The coroners will be able to act as they Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I have always have done in their own areas but just one question. On reading through also, especially the lockmen, it will give again this very good report of the Com- them the oportunity of acting in other mittee on the Administration of Justice Bill, areas where previously they were restric- not everything, probably, in those recom- ted as to where they could act, in what mendations is covered by the legislation parishes, but this will give them a wider and there would have to be somebody who area in which they can operate. I think, on would see to it that the administration of the whole, if the rules of court are drawn this very desirable legislation shall be up, and I presume they will be, this will be carried out. Perhaps the hon. member a more effective way of collecting debts in can tell me who would be, as it were, act- the future. I certainly hope so. The hon. ing in that supervisory capacity? member for Michael has really answered his own point. Thank you very much. The Acting-Speaker: Does any other hon. member wish to speak on the Bill? If not, I call on the hon. member to reply. The Acting-Speaker: The question before the House is that the Administration of Mr. Anderson: Yes, Mr. Acting-Speaker, Justice Bill 1979 to be read a third time. in answer to the hon. member for West Those in favour please say aye; against Douglas, first of all, the Deemsters are re- no. The ayes have it. The Bill read a third sponsible for making the rules of court and time.

Administration of Justice Bill—Third Reading Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K7

SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION pass amending legislation and under the (APPLICATION) (AMENDMENT) BILL principal Act we can apply the principal —THIRD READING APPROVED. Act by Order but if they pass" — and they do pass — "amending legislation we The Acting-Speaker: We now move to the cannot apply the amending legislation by third reading of the Social Security Legis- order and this Bill will give the Board the lation (Application) (Amendment) Bill and power to apply that amending legislation." I call upon the hon. member for Rushen, You may then want to know what we wish Mr. Cringle. to apply under this Application (Amend- ment) Bill. For example, the hon. mem- Mr. Cringle: Mr. Acting-Speaker, this ber for West Douglas, Mrs. Hanson, has on again is a measure which members have two or three occasions asked questions in had in their hands, as I told them at the last another place with regard to mobility allow- sitting, for quite a considerable time and ances and mobility allowances, for ex- they will remember that although I asked for ample, are one of the things which are the suspension of Standing Orders to take directly affected by this amending legisla- the third reading at our last sitting, it was tion. From November, when the increased not granted so I presume that over the benefit rates become payable, we can pay summer recess the hon. members will the increased benefits because that was have done their homework and will have under the principal Act which we can done a lot of work on the Social Security apply but we cannot make the alterations Legislation (Application) (Amendment) to the age groups because that has been Bill 1979. Can I just say as way of explan- passed in subsequent amending legisla- ation why members should give a third tion and we have not got the power to reading to this Bill this morning? Parlia- apply, by order, that amending legislation. ment in Westminster have adopted the It would mean that we would have to in- practice since 1975 of amending in minor troduce by three readings in this House Bills all matters related to scoial security and three readings in the Legislative legislation including supplementary bene- Council, special legislation relative to the fit and child benefit et cetera. They have age groups on the mobility allowances for adopted the practice of passing amending us to alter the mobility age groups, so we legislation. Now, our Social Security Legis- are stuck at 60 for women and 65 for men lation (Application) Act is dated 1974. Her for pension ages in mobility. Now that is Majesty's Attorney-General has proposed to one thing. Another thing which I under- us that to be consistent and to enable the stand is affected is this. Certain of the enactments to be applied effectively, all official pensions are directly affected be- social security related legislation, including cause there is no power at the present the Social Security Consolidation Act, time to apply by order. Events have been should be applied to the Island. They have, overtaken, if you like, by subsequent United as I said, adopted this practice of passing Kingdom legislation. Also, if you like, other minor Bills and it is these minor Bills which minor matters come into it, though they are now the subject of this Legislation are matters of some considerable concern (Application) (Amendment) Bill. I will just to those who are attached to these bene- read to you what I did say on 26th June fits. Attendance allowances in some re- in this House. "The point is that since the spects come into it and renal dialysis 1975 Act the pensions have been altered comes into it. It does not affect huge num- and the system has been altered." We bers of people across the country, it does have now gone on to a new pension not, but it does affect those people and system. This has been the subject of legis- what the Board of Social Security is lation. "The United Kingdom now, . . . desirous of doing is saying that when sub-

Social Security Legislation (Application) (Amendment) Bill —Third Reading Approved. K8 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 sequent minor amending legislation is remarks as far as clause 1 is concerned by passed in the United Kingdom we should saying that this is an enabling Bill and this have the power to be able to lay an Order is emphasised by the way this clause in front of Tynwald for you there to com- begins. It empowers the Governor in ment as to whether or not you wish this Executive Council to make Orders for the to apply to the Isle of Man and do it that prohibiting and regulating of the produc- way round rather than have to introduce a tion, acquisition, supply and use of specific special Bill for three readings in this House substances mentioned in (i) and (ii) of and three readings in the Legislative sub-clause (a) and also sub-clause (b). If Council. That is, basically, what we are I could just point out that sub-clause after in this Social Security Legislation (a) (i) refers to crude liquid petroleum, (Application) (Amendment) Bill and I beg natural gas and petroleum products. I to move the third reading. would just like to say that as far as petroleum products are concerned, it con- Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second. As you cerns only those products which are used have heard from the mover of this Bill, the as fuel or for heating or for use in that fact that we did not pass this reading particular respect. In (2), this covers any before the recess means that money is other substances which may be used for being withheld from persons who particul- fuel and heating and in this respect it arly deserve our compassion, so I am cer- could refer to coal and alcohol or any tain that you will pass this Bill this morn- other substance which could be used in ing. I understand that we have to thank the propulsion of an internal combustion the Finance Board for co-operating and engine and it could go as far as the use of allowing us to go ahead to prepare for the nuclear fuel. In sub-clause 1(b) electricity increase in the official pensions that again has a place on its own and I think you you have heard about. I do think when will be satisfied as far as electricity is there are emergencies that the third read- concerned, it should always have a place ing should be taken. Both the mover and of its own in the Isle of Man. May I just myself are very against third readings remark too that this really is the clause normally but this was a very exceptional which provides for the acquisition and case. control of oil fuels in the event of a short- age. Sub-clause (2) sets out the circum- The Acting-Speaker: Does any other hon. stances in which the powers to make member wish to speak? If not, the ques- Orders under sub-clause (1) may be exer- tion before the House is that the Social cised. There is one exception here and Security Legislation (Application) (Amend- that is the exception which refers to the ment) Bill be read a third time. Those in use of any substance and this is done favour please say aye; against, no. The particularly because the use actually refers ayes have it. The Bill read a third time. to the conservation of a particular fuel and in this respect it gives the permanent ENERGY BILL — CLAUSES conservation control which could be made CONSIDERED. in a case of emergency and that could refer to the rationing of coal, gas and The Acting-Speaker: We now move to the electricity et cetera. It also, in a way, refers Energy Bill for consideration of clauses to space heating, the restriction of space and I call upon the hon. member for Glen- heating and lighting in certain premises. faba, Mr. Quirk. Sub-clause (3) applies to the prior con- sultation which is necessary before these Mr. Quirk: Thank you, Mr. Acting- Orders are put into being. This is one of Speaker. First of all, may I just preface my the parts that runs through the Bill, that in

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K9 most circumstances interested parties will difficulty, of course, with any commercial have the opportunity of making represen- organisation like the Electricity Board, tation and certainly will be consulted there is little alternative than passing on to before these Orders are put into effect. the consumer the amount that they require Sub-clause (4) covers the regulation of and the only thing they can hope to do is prices for the different products and, as far give as good a deal as they possibly can as petroleum is concerned, this can be in acquiring as great a quantity, bulkwise, exercised at any time by the Governor in as they can for the consumer. The areas, Council. Price control of other substances again, which have got to be protected are can only be exercised when there is an those that have been acted upon by the Order under an energy emergency in sub-committee of Executive Council, that operation. In sub-clause (5), as I have they are laying in stores of fuel for the already said, this can control petroleum winter-time. I feel that is very important products at any time otherwise than only indeed because we are aware that with in an emergency. I do not think I have demands for increased wages by miners, any other explanation of this particular and so on, there is only one way in which clause, Mr. Acting-Speaker, so I will move the cost of this fuel can go and that is to the adoption of clause 1 of this Bill. increase and I would even go so far as to say that if necessary the Government Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second and re- should be prepared to loan money so that serve my remarks. large enough stocks are laid in at the beginning of the winter and also even help The Acting-Speaker: Does any hon. mem- the Electricity Board in forward buying ber wish to speak? and forward storing to the utmost capacity of fuel which is again in no way ever going Mr. Lowey: Mr. Acting-Speaker, when to come to a lesser amount than it is at the hon. mover of the Bill says on sub-clause the present time. I do not think there is (3), that both the consumers and suppliers any way in which the Electricity Board can of energy will be consulted, perhaps the get beyond, unfortunately, passing on to hon. Chairman, who is the Vice-Chairman the consumer, other than finding ways of of the Electricity Board, can inform the relieving those at the lower end of the House who are the consumers' representa- scale of the impact of these increased tives that the Electricity Board consult costs and I think, possibly, that can be now? In other words, do they have a users best done through the Board of Social consultative committee on the Island and, Security. if not, would he give an indication that Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I am a perhaps his Board would look at the for- little concerned about the relationship of mation of such a body? the Government and the commercial under- takings. For instance, supposing Shell or Mr. Anderson: I support the contents of Esso decided to withdraw from the Island, this Bill, Mr. Acting-Speaker. I would have what would our position be then? I realise thought, in relation to the comments of the we have an Order regulating or prohibiting hon. member who has just resumed his a reduction in supply, but it does not seat that, in fact, the Electricity Board actually use the word "provide". consumers, if you think of the con- text, are very well represented. We have, The Acting-Speaker: Would you care to I know, in the west of the Island, Mr. Stan reply, sir? Kermeen, who is a very conscientious mem- ber of that committee. I think the members Mr. Quirk: First of all, I think my col- of that committee are conscious of it. The league, Mr. Anderson, has replied to the

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. K10 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 question from Mr. Lowey. I think you have taking needed to be varied from time to gone a lot further than I have gone in talk- time or which may differ from one to the ing about supplies et cetera. Maintenance other. This refers, in specific content, "to of fuel supplies, this comes later, of course, any person carrying on an undertaking in in the Bill. What I would just like to say the course of which he produces any sub- is that we are looking at all the means we stance mentioned in section 1(1) as to can in providing electricity as cheaply as the production and use of that subsance." possible and this does not mean simply And in (b), "to any person carrying on an by pre-buying fuel or whatever. This is undertaking in the course of which he only one of the points that we have looked supplies any such substance . . ." and at. There are other ways. We have other (c) refers to the use of that substance. reasons, too, to believe that we can at Sub-clause (2) supplements the general least hold charges not related to oil and power to give directions and may be used wages for some time but this is a point to control the use of raw materials needed which is a very, very wide point and I to manufacture fuel, and this could also would not like to coment on it at the be taken to relate to coal and alcohol. In present time but I can assure you it is sub-clause (2) (b), this enables supplies to very much in our minds. As far as Mrs. be restricted or prohibited, and requires Quayle is concerned, I might say that this supplies to be made to specified persons, control would only be enforced when and makes control for the provision of there is a general emergency applied by prices in various substances. In short, this Her Majesty in Council in the United King- is for the protection of the vulnerable sec- dom. Of course, we are not just the Isle tions of the community where an Order of Man now, we are not just the United may be made specifying that these vulner- Kingdom, we are part of the world and we able sections should be supplied rather are reminded of this many times. We have than a generality of consumers. Sub-clause a European Economic Community Agree- (2) (c) relates to the directions to under- ment and there is also another agreement takings using the substances and may which England has to comply with and prohibit, restrict or specify the periods which I think will influence control and during which energy may not be used. supply as far as the whole of the United Once again, it is a control over the use Kingdom is concerned. I just forget, it of any substance for heat or power, to escapes my mind at the present time, the control it by time or for a specific purpose. organisation concerned, but I will refer to As I have said before, probably with a that later on. factory you could introduce an Order which would reduce work at certain periods of The Acting-Speaker: I put clause 1 to the day or reduce night work, something the House. Those in favour please say aye; like this. This is what it applies to, where against, no. The ayes have it. Clause 2. you can limit the time in which fuel may be used. Sub-clause (3) merely refers to Mr. Quirk: Clause 2. Whereas clause "specified" and this means specified by 1 has been applying to general powers, the direction of the Governor in Council. clause 2 becomes more specific. Now this Sub-clause (4)—". . . so far as it relates enables the Governor in Executive Council, to requirements as to price, applies in again, when an emergency is in force, to relation to electricity as it applies in rela- give directions to producers, suppliers and tion to the substances mentioned in users of any substance covered under section 1(1)." So that means that elec- clause 1 of the Bill, and of electricity. This tricty is controlled with the exception of provides a flexibility where Orders are the control of prices. I beg to move that imposed on those carrying on an under- clause 2 stands part of the Bill.

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K11

Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second and ment were able to say, you shall use it for reserve my remarks. specfic purposes. With this Bill I hope that if the time comes — and I hope the time Mr. P. Radcliffe: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I will not come — when we have to ration am sure members of the general public fuel . . . Because I understand at the will be interested to hear about this Bill present moment that the fuel situation is coming forward today, bearing in mind the reasonably good in the Isle of Man, our fact that we have two Energy Committees allocation, but certainly I think a lot of at the present moment in Government, one people, if they read this discussion today dealing with the day-to-day situation and will appreciate the point that the Govern- one looking into the future situation. Not ment will be able to protect their interests so very long ago I was approached by a and see that a reasonable temperature, gentleman living in my own constituency shall I say, within the dwellings shall be who said that somewhere along the grape- maintained under government legislation. vine he had been given to understand that the Government were going to ration fuel, Mr. Anderson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I and he said, "I wonder what basis they would hope that rationing would be the are going to ration it on? What powers very last resort to which we would have to have you got to say to certain people, you go in respect of heating, especially as far shall only use fuel for certain purposes? as elderly people are concerned. We are In my small dwelling which is purely a aware that because of financial circum- domestic house having the usual facilities, stances there are many people who really I only use the supply of fuel absolutely go to bed for a very long time in the winter necessary to maintain the house at a months, and it is the only way they have reasonable heat level. Not very far away of maintaining body heat. But I think we from me" he said, "is basically what is ought to now set about the task of making known today in the Isle of Man as one of the public aware, first of all, of conserving our new, large mansion developments with and making better use of the heat we have a vast swimming-pool and all the amenities and not letting so much of it get wasted in you could think of, and they use a tremen- so many ways, and we are all, as the hon. dous amount of fuel and energy. Have you mover mentioned, part of a very wider any power at the present moment to say community, and we have all got a respon- to these people, in the future you will use, sibility in relation to the useage of fossil or we will give you 10 per cent. less of supplies. There are, of course, many ways your consumption of oil than that which in which we can assist, and that is, we hope you had in the past?" Then he said, "If I that through the use of better insulation were to have a reduction of 10 per cent. in homes and in relation to factories I hope in my fuel consumption it would mean, it will be a long, long time before we have possibly, that my house would have a to say to engineering factories, you must rather freezing atmosphere. But if my next not do any night-shifts at all. If they have door neighbour, or near neighbour, was to got orders and they have got jobs they have a 10 per cent reduction on his fuel have to keep going. I would hope that we supply, all he would basically be required would seek first of all to, in fact, insulate to do would be to cut back on what he those factories so that the heat which they used in his swimming-pool and he could are using is better conserved and not keep his house at the normal heat. So," wasted. There is no doubt about it, the he said, "have you any power at the Cheshire County Council has shown that present moment to control that?" I looked at least 25 per cent. or 30 per cent. of at the matter at the time and I could not heat in such premises can be used by find any legislation that said the Govern- better and more efficient utilisation of that

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. K12 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 heat. This extends into many other sphsres. a restriction on fuel use in the Isle of Man. We are aware, of course, that we live in a We have had nearly a 30 per cent. increase world where two-thirds of the world's in cost over the last 12 months. So the population have not got sufficient on which people who can afford it can have it but to exist so far as food is concerned, and those who cannot can go without, so the this is related in terms of energy which is restriction is already there. I welcome this used, through nitrogen, to grow more food Bill. I welcome the part in it which loosely throughout the world, and I think three controls prices, and it is a problem that tons of oil are used to make one ton of might arise in the Isle of Man. Like every- nitrogen — (interruption) — and that is thing in this world, it is controlled by a considerable amount. Again, more prices. Those who have will get and those efficient use of natural resources is going who have not will do without. I feel that to be very important. Very often, even in the Bill has not gone far enough. I think the farming world in the past we have had, the first aim of the Bill should have been through the winter months, a lot of natural to . . . The hon. member for Ayre, the waste being washed down through the Chairman of the Finance Board, Mr. Rad- fields which can be better utilised, and I cliffe, pointed out who should have what think it behoves us in every sphere to be when a problem comes to the Isle of Man, aware of this, and that we are stewards and he mentioned about the swimming- not just of the next decade but into the pool. But, of course, we also have the next century if those who come after us problem in the Isle of Man at the moment. hope to exist at all. Man has got many I asked one member of Government some wonderful means of meeting situations time back what was the heat allowance for when they occur. I was talking to some- the offices in Government Buildings next body the other day from South Africa where door, and I do not think anyone could they are using sunflower oil, and they were give me an answer to that. So the prob- able to use it without any conversion to a lem is with us now but we are not even tractor. So there are other ways and tackling the property next door in which means whereby these problems can be we all carry out our business. Surely that tackled, but they are still going to cost a is where we should be starting, with our lot of money, they are still going to be own properties, because we are burning expensive, so it behoves us all to, in fact, up juice next door there all hands down use it wisely in all our buildings, and we but we are not doing anything now. We hope that in the not-too-distant future are talking in the Bill about when an somebody can be appointed who can ad- emergency comes. I would suggest that vise on the best ways in which to utrise from the information which we have already our energy in Government and other build- had through the Isle of Man general index ings which are very expensive indeed to of prices, the problem is already with us heat, in the interest of not only the because the cost itself is a crisis. It is a economy but the whole of the future of crisis for those people who cannot afford mankind. it. Although I welcome the Bill I do not think it has gone far enough. I hope that Mr. Delaney: Mr. Acting-Speaker, the in the future the Energy Committee sitting hon. member who has just resumed his looking at the future supply of energy will seat was very interesting. Next time I see be looking at ways also of making sure any of my constituents driving tractors that those people who cannot afford the along the promenade I must inform them energy at the moment, in the future will of the same. But the interesting point I not have to go without. have here — I wonder if members have bothered to read the Isle of Man general index of retail prices, and we already have Mr. Lowey: Mr. Acting-Speaker, may I

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K13 say, in case there is any doubt, I am that we have somehow got to make the supporting the Bill. But I really do think public conscious, certainly the rich public there comes a time when . . . We are conscious, that there is a great need to talking here of controlling the prices. There conserve energy of all types. The other is in being at this moment in time a Bill point I want to make is that our past sins to do just that, and that is the General have caught up with us because we have Control of the Economy Bill, and that is built a lot of draughty rabbit hutches, or quite clear and specific. It controls the chicken hutches, whatever you like to call Governor, it controls the prices to be them, with no chimneys, and those people charged for articles or land of any descrip- are indeed going to feel the cold very tion, the charges to be made for services shortly. of any description, so it is already there. This may be duplicating, but I just want Dr. Mann: Mr. Acting-Speaker, these to make it absolutely clear that the rele- comments on this, which I think vant point that has been made on this stemmed from the hon. Chairman of the second clause is the one that has been Finance Board, highlight something that I made by my friend, the hon. member for think we have really got to take notice of, Ayre, Mr. Radcliffe, and that is, who, at and that is that what transcends everything the end of the day, will actually ration else in the public's eye is, are they going substances? This is what it is all about. to get something to burn and keep them In other words, the very relevant point warm, and are they in the end going to be made was, who, at the end of the day, able to pay for it. We talk about rationing would say that we have got a limited supply heat and energy by price, but we have also of oil and that amount of oil must be distri- rationed housing by price, and the very buted in a certain way? And, of course, people who are now being rationed with this clause lays it down quite clearly, it energy are the people, largely, who have is the Governor in Executive Council, and been rationed in housing, and being they will delegate the responsibility. These rationed in housing means frequently they are all reserve powers, these are laying have the most difficult houses to heat, and down a guidline and a pattern of behaviour the most inconvenient, and they are if we ever get to that position, so I am rationed to fuels that are also inconvinient. supporting it for that. But I would like it So that although we have spent a lot of to be popularly known that there are time talking about forward planning on already in being Acts controlling prices, energy, which I think we have achieved, services, and all the rest of it. the best possible solution in the long term . . . And we have in the short term Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I really talked of accumulating supplies, which is think we should have a Bill on envy in also correct, to ensure that there is not a front of us. I was this morning driving in, physical shortage, we have neglected at alack, not on my bicycle and conserving this moment to really solve the immediate energy, but driving in in my car and I was problem that is in most people's minds conscious of the fact that one should not and, in fact, we will probably generate a put one's right foot down and speed up. I lot of heat on all the subsequent items on was driving along at a moderate pace and this Agenda. But the one thing that most a great big Rolls Royce swept past me. people would say is that we cannot, and Mr. Delaney: Going to the swimming we are not interested in subsequent things pool! (Laughter.) on the Agenda until we get answers to those two basic questions — do we get Mrs. Quayle: That is right, I was envious! fuel and can we pay for it? This pre- But I do think this brings us to the point occupies the whole of the average per-

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. K14 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 son's mind, and I think unless we solve pass the Bill because it is a start, and that in the next few months we are that is essential. going to be in considerable trouble as a The Acting-Speaker: I put clause 2 to Government because nobody who can the House. Those in favour please say aye; afford energy is necessarily going to against, no. restrict it. The clause that started this little debate is, of course, a clause that is A member: The hon. member has not very necessary to give the Government replied. power to control the price and actually ration supply, and I welcome that, but I The Acting-Speaker: I am sorry. Does think we really have got to get down in a the hon. member wish to reply? bit more detail to sorting out the real grass roots problem which is entirely different Mr. Quirk: Mr. Acting-Speaker, there are from the problem that we have been dis- just one or two comments on some of the cussing up until now. points made. As far as Mr. Radcliffe is concerned, his query related to the unequal use of fuel by domestic con- MT. Creer: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I have sumers. There is no power under this just one question, really. It is to do with particular clause to deal with domestic people who generate their own power. It consumers but there is power to deal with says here "reserve power by control of supplies to domestic consumers in clause the government directions." Is there any- 1, and that is only enforced when an energy thing in this that is going to interfere with emergency is in operation. Clause 1 deals people who generate their own power, with domestic consumers in particular. I whether it is by water-wheel, and we have think a lot of the questions asked after one or two in the Isle of Man, or whether that related to conservation, and I certainly it is by windmill and we have one or two of agree with them all. As far as prices are those in the Isle of Man. I kno‘../ of one concerned, there is a control of the prices place that would be interested in supply- and this comes in clause 4 under the ing the people next door with electricity. General Control of the Economy Act which So is there anything in this clause that is controls the prices of all substances men- going to stop this in (a), (b) or (c)? tioned in clause 1. As far as the electricity charges are concerned, the Government Mr. Swales: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I will already has a sufficient knowledge of the confine my few remarks to the actual Bill. operations of our undertaking to control I would say that, basically, the powers are up to a point, and I am sure we would be arbitrary and will be used only, of course, very, very glad indeed to supply electricity by the Governor in Executive Council in cheaper if this Government would give us times of need. I support the Bill because the money to do so. That, I think, is in my reading of it is that it will ensure that your hands exactly and I hope we will be the Government will obtain supplies, and coming forward with a resolution to ask we must have these, and it becomes the at least for some support for our elderly responsibility then of the Executive Council people later on. The reception that will get to distribute these supplies to the best does not depend on this Bill. Mr. Creer, and to the fairest advantage to the com- your point will come later on in the Bill. munity. This is their responsibility, and I the control of the small generating think the points made by the hon. member stations. It is outside the province of this for Ayre, Mr. Radcliffe, and indeed the particular clause. hon. member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney, are very pertinent in this connec- The Acting Speaker: I now put clause 2 tion. Having said this, I think that we must to the House. Those in favour please say

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 Kia aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Clause not sitting, but is it the normal practice to 3. pace these Orders before Tynwald Court?

Mr. Quirk: Clause 3 enables the Mr. Quirk: As you remark, Mr. Lowey, an Governor in Executive Council, by Order, emergency crisis demands immediate to declare that the powers contained in action and, as I have said, this will come clauses 1 and 2 shall be exercisable to the before Tynwald at the first available fullest extent in certain circumstances sitting. There may be a time when which are specified in sub-clauses (a) this will be revoked and I think this comes and (b). The first, in sub-clause (a), is in later in clause 10 of the Bill, where, if where Her Majesty in Council makes a it is revoked in England it will also be re- general Order under the Energy Act 1976, voked here. and that is when an energy emergency is in operation. Such an Order may be made The Acting-Speaker: I will put clause 3 by Her Majesty in order to implement the to the House. Those in favour please say United Kingdom's obligation as a member aye; against, no. The ayes have it. I will of the European Economic Community, or now ask the hon. member to put clause 4, under the International Energy Agreement together with Schedule 1, before the House. in order to deal with fuel shortage, or if there exists in the United Kingdom an Mr. Quirk: Clause 4. The purpose of this actual or threatened energy emergency clause is to protect the suppliers and which, in the opinion of Her Majesty in users of fuel and electricity and sub- Council, demands the temporary avail- stances mentioned in clause 1 against any ability of exceptional powers for control- breach of contract or statutory obligation ling energy. Sub-clause (b) relates to our when an Order under clause 3 is enforced, own domestic situation, where the Gov- that is, an energy emergency. The autho- ernor in Executive Council, if he is satis- rity exercised by the Lieutenant-Governor fied there exists or is imminent in the in Executive Council could be given to the Island an actual or threatened emergency, supply industry as a whole or any part of should have temporary exceptional powers the industry, or to named persons, and for controlling the sources and availability could be a complete or a limited exone- of energy. In such an instance this would ration — for example, you could use alter- be related to a domestic energy crisis and native fuels, we have gas oil at the moment would require approval by Tynwald at its which could be used as an alternative for next available sitting. I beg to move that diesel if the necessity arose — and also clause 3 stands part of the Bill. to disregard, I believe, quality standards with permission to use low quality fuel and Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second and re- other energy producing products which serve my remarks. would conserve energy in the long run, and to enable other legislation which Mr. Lowey: Mr. Acting-Speaker, there is effects the use — again on conservation only one little query I would like to make. — as distinct from the supply of the sub- It says in clause 3(a) that the Governor stance or electricity to be modified or ex- in Council may make an Order. Do I take tended. That is to use energy conservation it that these Orders will be placed before in order to economise on fuel and could Tynwald for subsequent ratification or be used to introduce a temporary speed approval, or is there no way where, in limit as a means of conserving fuel. Sub- effect, the Legislature can comment on clause (3), and this also introduces these Orders eventually? I appreciate that Schedule 1 which is the relaxation of road there may be occasions when Tynwald is traffic and transport law. It introduces the

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. K16 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979

Schedule where an Order under clause 3 ber in charge of the Bill for his comments is enforced. The Governor in Executive on clause 10(1), which is the introduction Council may relax all or any of the require- of what you would call negative resolu- ments of the road and transport law set tions. The major Orders under this legis- out in this Schedule, and in general terms lation if, unhappily, they have to be made, this concerns the relaxation in respect of will be concerned with an emergency, but licences and permits in relation to public clause 4 deals with other powers and it service vehicles, standards of vehicles and must be recognised that as soon as an modification of insurance requirements. Order is made — and Schedule 1 sets Sub-clause (4) provides for the modifica- out what sort of relaxations there might tion or exclusion of any obligation which be — it is operative and it can only be may directly or indirectly affect the use of cancelled, as it were, by a negative reso- any substance mentioned in clause 1, and lution of the next sitting of Tynwald. I be- this is a clause which would give power lieve that the negative resolution proce- to impose a temporary speed limit. Sub- dure is something to be adopted only with clause (5) contains two provisions which great care, and here we are extending, and have effect, again, under an emergency I am not saying the House does this, but Order, and concerns the direct and indi- at least it knows what it is doing here, rect supply of any substance. Sub-clause that they are giving to the Governor in 5(b) applies control for the regulating of Council express powers, quite consider- prices, and sub-clause (6) will apply to able powers, which may not be acceptable electricity as it does in relation to the to Tynwald, but Tynwald cannot do any- other substances in clause 1. I think you thing about it until they meet next and will agree that in cases such as this - possibly cancel the Order. and we talked about this just in the pre- ceding clause — that some regulations Mr. Cringle: Mr. Acting-Speaker, it was concerning the control of prices are neces- interesting to sit and listen to the hon. sary when in a time of shortage you prob- member who has just resumed his seat ably would get the possibility of profiteer- make those comments, because I do not ing or inflation forcing the prices up. So remember 40 years ago, but I did, when I this is the clause which can control prices read this, think that there was something to that extent. I beg to move that clause a little bit dangerous to some extent about 4 stands part of the Bill. clause 4. And the danger is, in fact, that this Court would, or is proposing to give Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second and re- to Executive Council sweeping powers, serve my remarks. and I do say that as a member of Execu- tive Council. I feel that dealing with an Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Acting-Speaker, many Energy Bill, which we are actually doing, of us will remember 40 years ago when, and it states just simply that, an Energy at the stroke of a pen under the Defence Bill 1979, that there are times when we of the Realm Act, a lot of private interests should control exactly what we are doing. and private rights were dissolved. Now, Most of the discussion this morning has this is emergency legislation or at least it gone round about the provision of conser- is an enabling Bill to allow us to deal with vation or in the case of the hon. member a fuel emergency. I am very conscious of for Glenfaba, the provision from Govern- the fact that at a stroke of a pen a lot of ment of insulation and that sort of busi- people's rights might indeed be abrogated. ness, rather than the strict legislation which I was going to mention later on when we is in front of us. Clause 4 says "other come to clause 11, but apropos what was powers". "A person supplying or using a mentioned in connection with the last substance mentioned in section 1(1) may, clause, I would like to ask the hon. mem- if authorised to do so by the Governor in

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K17

Council . . . " or, in fact, further down, by as Mr. Kermeen's point is concerned, of any person to do more or less anything in course, there will be incidental actions relation to road traffic, in particular. If you which may be taken, and I do not think it turn to Schedule 1 and look at 1(1) (b), is possible to enumerate them all. In an "notwithstanding that the vehicle does not emergency someone has to take action. I comply with regulations." In this case you do not think anybody can really say that could have Executive Council completely he can cover an emergency just at a parti- oblivious of any safety regulations or what- cular time and this Bill provides the cover ever, telling some person or instructing for the requirement and action when an some person to deliver through our towns emergency occurs at that particular time. or cities, vehicles which do not comply As far as the Road Traffic Act is con- with the regulations. Now, those regula- cerned, I am sure that my colleague from tions relative to 1(1) (b) are those laid Ayre, Mr. Radcliffe, as Chairman of the down by the Highway Board completely in Highway and Transport Board, would prob- line with safety requirements and, there- ably be better able to answer this than fore, although I will agree with Executive myself. But there may probably come a Council having these powers, I do propose time when road services, for instance, may that we should amend clause 4 so that it be asked to use different methods. We may reads "A person supplying or using a sub- have to use qualified but unlicensed stance mentioned in section 1(1) may, in drivers or conductors, we may have to a time of national emergency, . . . " - commandeer lorries to transport fuel from, add the words "in a time of national emer- say, Jurby to Peel, and it may be neces- gency, if authorised to do so by the Gov- sary to use improvised tankers to do this. ernor in Council . . . " I feel it would be This is the sort of thing that may just hap- better for us to spell out now that, yes, pen in an emergency, and for that you we are prepared for the Governor in Coun- could not put legislation like that in this cil to have the power, but only in the event particular Bill. This is purely, as has al- of it being in a national emergency. ready been said, an enabling Bill, and I am sure that these measures will be taken Mr. Lowey: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I think responsibly by the people in charge. really, if I interpreted correctly what my hon. colleague has said regarding this par- The Acting-Speaker: The question before ticular clause, I think if he looks on the the House is that clause 4, together with front page it says "5. Clause 4 . . . provides, Schedule 1, stands part of the Bill. Those when an Order under clause 3 is in force in favour please say aye; against, no. The . . . " . So that is the very point he is ayes have it. making, an emergency situation. Clause 4 only operates, in effect, when there is an Mr. Quirk: Clause 5 is one of the im- emergency which is in force at that time. portant clauses of this Bill and it really So I think the amendment is gilding the refers to the maintenance of stocks, et lily, and I think it is already incorporated cetera, of the different sources of fuel in into the Bill. I want the House to assist the the Island and this, of course, enables the hon. mover of the Bill, that this is enabling Governor in Executive Council to give legislation only. directions to any person responsible for the production, supply or use of crude Mr. Quirk: Very briefly, Mr. Acting- liquid petroleum or petroleum products to Speaker, I thank Mr. Lowey for pointing ensure that his stocks are brought up to that out. In fact, it states very clearly that and maintained at a specified level and these actions can only take place when also to direct a substantial supplier to the there is an Order under clause 3 in opera- Island market to create and maintain ade- tion, which is an energy emergency. As far quate stocks of petroleum products based

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. K18 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 on and relative to the quantities supplied respect to them." Now, in other words, by the undertaking in the past periods. what we are saying is we take one of our This, in effect, requires a maintenance of major suppliers, and we only have two of the Island's stockpile of fuel oil. Sub- petroleum commodities to the Isle of Man, clauses (1), (2) and (3) really set out and we are going to turn round and direct these requirements. Sub-clause (4) makes them, apparently, that they are going to it clear that any person concerned will be create stocks on the Island. If they given reasonable notification and oppor- turn round and say, "I am not going tunity to make representations. Sub-clause to do so", what is the penalty? Are (5), here again, it just refers to the word we going to then turn round and say, "indigenous", and is defined as being in- "Well you cannot supply the Isle of digenous to the Isle of Man in relation to Man market"? Now I often think that crude liquid petroleum as meaning won sometimes if you have not got a penalty, under licence granted under United King- the next best thing is offer a little dom legislation and in relation to petro- carrot, and it says in (2) (a) (i), "enable leum products produced in the Island or those stocks to be brought within a speci- the United Kingdom from indigenous fied time to, and thereafter maintained at, crude. Sub-clause (6) enables the Lieu- a specified level." If we are going to tenant-Governor in Council to prescribe direct any person under this clause 5 to the cases and circumstances in which bring any stock up to a given level at the stocks are to be treated as Island stocks direction of Government, (a) have the for the purpose of compliance with direc- firms themselves been told or brought into tions and in which a person or undertak- consultation on the clause of the Bill at ing is to be treated as a substantial sup- all, have they been notified? (b), is there plier; to prescribe the extent to which oil any way at all in which Government could stocks of one kind may count towards offer some sort of incentive for them so meeting the demands for another kind of to do, by, for example, underwriting the oil and the method by which quantities of amount of capital or at least meeting oil may be measured for different pur- maybe the interest on the capital which poses. I beg to move clause 5. would be expended to bring the supply on the Isle of Man up to the Government's Mr. Cringle: Can I ask the hon. required level? member . . Mr. Delaney: I was going to raise exactly The Acting-Speaker: The clause has not the same point as my hon. friend, the yet been seconded. member for Rushen, Mr. Cringle. I under- stand, and maybe I am wrong, but we Mrs. Quayle: I beg to second. only have one main supplier of solid fuel, a nationalised industry, which unfortu- The Acting-Speaker: Thank you, please nately, over the years, has not got an ex- proceed. cellent track record of not having industrial strikes. I wonder when this was drafted if Mr. Crinale: Can I ask the hon. mover, any consultation went on with them for Mr. Acting-Speaker, exactly what is going ensuring levels of stocks because we had to happen under this and is there a pen- some years back a level of stock which alty, or any penalty whatsoever allied to had to be maintained. It came because of this? Because, for example, it says in the crisis which occurred, I believe, in clause 5(2) (b), "in the case of any such 1963/64, but I am wondering how you can person who is a substantial supplier to the tell a nationalised industry that they will, Island market, direct him to create such particularly when it is financed by the stocks and make such arrangements with British Government, maintain stocks, and,

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K19 as has been pointed out by my hon. friend, way in which we can control the price how do you penalise them for not doing other than through the finances of the Isle so? Has this not been a problem for the of Man Government, if we can assist in Island for so long, that it is time we that way. If you say to somebody, we are changed it where we rely on one supplier? not going to pay the price for it, the re- Why have we not gone into Europe or sult is that you just will not get it and that found out the potential for Polish coal, or is the top and bottom of it. I believe now that there is the situation in Britain where coal from other parts of the Mr. Creer: Mr. Acting-Speaker, in listen- world can be bought cheaper. Surely we ing to the debate this morning, you would have all our eggs in one basket and what think that the importers of fuel into the we are trying to do is put a lid on it here, Island were not playing the game but we but the basket might very well not be have had wonderful co-operation from the there in the future. It is fine to have this two petrol firms and the National Coal sort of rule and regulation, which looks Board. We have had wonderful co-opera- very well on paper, but has no teeth what- tion from these people and they have kept soever. the stocks up for three months in advance. I do not see what everybody has got to Mr. Anderson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I worry about. think most hon. members are aware that, in fact, we have had emergency supplies The Acting-Speaker: Does any other for which Government have actually made member wish to speak on this clause? financial provision in the past, and this is the only way really in which this could be Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I done in the future. I am aware, as mem- wonder if the hon. member in charge of bers of this hon. Court will be aware, that the Bill would answer a query as regards there is almost a possibilty that we could sub-clause (3)(b), "the extent to which be left with one supplier of fuel as far as crude liquid petroleum and petroleum oil is concerned on the Island. This could products produced or supplied by the be in my view, rather a tragedy for the undertaking are, or will be, indigenous." Island and any sort of measure which That is something that the Governor in would be a threat would do nothing to im- Council will have to have regard to when prove the future supplies of the Island. making directions. I wonder if he can con- The only method whereby Government can firm that liquid petroleum gas which is, I do that is by some sort of financial guaran- think, the sole supply of that type of fuel tee, assistance or means whereby, be- in the Isle of Man, is coming from Den- cause of the fact that they held extra sup- mark, in fact, and is not indigenous at a'1? plies of oil, that they would be compen- So that particular paragraph, as far as gas sated for the very high interest levels is concerned, would be non-operative. which are running at this present time, and this is really the only way in which you The Acting-Speaker: Does the hon. mem- could ensure that that would take place ber wish to reply? and I think the same thing could very well apply to other fuels as well, but especially Mr. Quirk: Thank you, Mr. Acting- it does relate to petroleum and the only Speaker. Can I just generalise on the way we could ensure it, there is no doubt points? As far as consultation is concerned, about it, that we might threaten, we might companies have had copies of correspon- say we are not going to pay a certain price dence relating to this Bill. We have not had for oil or for coal. The only result of that a lot of comment from them. We have al- would be, Mr. Acting-Speaker, that you ways, I think, as the hon. member for just would not get any and there is no Middle, has said, enjoyed a very good rela-

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. K20 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 tionship with the main suppliers, our two very well use, and as far as indigenous suppliers of oil, and as far as we are crude oil is concerned, might it not be concerned, the choice of companies is possible that we could have a refining limited as well. I can only say from plant? This has been spoken of with quite my own experience in the Electricity a lot of comments, I am sure, on the Board that when we put out tenders situation. It is within the realms of pos- for contracts we get probably two or sibility that it be necessary but it is not three companies at the most replying as yet. or maybe more for little portions of our requirements and we can only really deal Mr. Cring!e: Mr. Acting-Speaker, can I, with one or two companies because they for clarification purposes, ask the hon. have the means for transporting oil to the mover a further question? It really is rela- Isle of Man and it is not everybody today tive to what I said earlier and I would like who has the boats small enough to get into the hon. mover to explain to me exactly Peel Harbour to fill our tanks up, et cetera. how clause 5 is workable, bearing in mind But we do enjoy a great deal of con- that this morning we are dealing with legis- fidence and support from our main com- lation and if this gets through the three panies. One thing I would like to say, it readings here, gets through the three read- has been suggested that we could share ings in another place, becomes law of the responsibility here and this is something land and is it, in fact, workable? that I think we are quite prepared to do. If at any time the companies do run short The Acting-Speaker: Would you care to we do have a small supply at the moment answer, sir? which could be shared. It is a supply, a reserve, which is owned by the Govern- Mr. Quirk: Yes, just again, this is an ment. It is under the surveillance of the enabling Bill which operates under an Electricity Board but it is owned by energy emergency, and under those cir- Government and this is a supply which cumstances I would say that all these pos- could be tapped by our main suppliers if sibilities are covered. it was necessary. So there would be a certain amount of sharing. It has been The Acting-Speaker: I put clause 5 to the suggested in the past that there should be House. All those in favour please say aye; more tanks built on the Isle of Man by the against no. The ayes have it. Government. It was also suggested, I think, that a specific place for them, a Mr. Cringle: Could I be recorded against, particular place for them, should be at the please, Mr. Acting-Speaker? back of Battery Pier. This is something that has been suggested, it is something Mr. Acting-Speaker: Certainly. Clause 6. that could happen. If we want to go ahead with it, that is the Government's concern. Mr. Quirk: Clause 6. This clause enables I do not know that there is anything else directions to be given to the various public I want to say. As far as Mr. Kermeen is electricity undertakings on the Isle of Man concerned, this part of the Bill, I think, to maintain and provide stocks of fuel at really relates to indigenous. We have had or near the generating stations. In sub- explorations here round about the Isle of clause (1) it defines the bodies concerned Man to establish whether we have or have and in sub-clause (2) it gives the authority not any indigenous source of supply. We to direct. Sub-clauses (3) and (4) relate may have, it is not too late to hope even to the amount of fuel to be held in relation yet. We may have a supply of gas or what- to the period of usage, to specify the cases ever around our shores which we could and circumstances in which fuel stocks

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K21

may be treated as being held at or near supply gas by an undertaking whether any generating station, to make or approve such obligation is imposed by or under arrangements under which electricity pro- legislation or by contract. This is an Order ducers have access to communal stocks which can allow the by-passing of a con- and may I say that this will reply to the tract if it is necessary. hon. member for Middle when he asked about small stations. It is only stations of Mr. Anderson: I beg to second and re- two megawatts and over that will be con- serve my remarks. cerned with this clause. Two megawatts is about roughly the operational strength of The Acting-Speaker: Clause 7 has been one of our generating machines so it proposed and seconded. All those in favour really means that there is very little energy please say aye; against no. The ayes have being created over that limit on the Isle of it. Clause 8. Man. No other undertaking creates more energy to that extent. Mr. Quirk: Clause 8. This clause requires notice to be given to the Governor in Mr. Anderson: I beg to second and Executive Council of any proposal to con- reserve my remarks. struct or convert an electricity generating station to burn crude liquid petroleum, Mr. Kermeen: I wonder if the hon. mem- petroleum products or natural gas and to ber could just elaborate on that statement enter into and extend the duration of con- of what is a two megawatt generator? tracts for obtaining a supply of natural gas as fuel for an electricity generating station The Acting-Speaker: Does any other and to enable the Governor in Executive hon. member wish to speak? If not, would Council really to keep a thumb on the you care to reply, sir? supplies.

Mr. Quirk: This relates to the power Mr. Anderson: I beg to second and which is generated by a particular machine. reserve my remarks. I do not have the figures in my head, I am not a professional man in that respect, but The Acting-Speaker: Clause 8 has been it does relate to the power which is pro- proposed and seconded. I put it to the duced by a certain amount of fuel at a House. All those in favour please say aye; certain pressure, et cetera, and these are against no. The ayes have it. Clause 9. machines which produce, as I said, two megawatts, which is a measure of power, Mr. Quirk: Clause 9. This gives the a measure of energy. Governor in Executive Council the power to make Orders requiring the determina- The Acting-Speaker: I put to the House tion of fuel consumption of all makes of that clause 6 stands part of the Bill. All passenger cars by officially approved tests, those in favour please say aye; against no. and for the results to be recorded and The ayes have it. Clause 7. published. Sub-clause (2) requires the manufacturers or importers to carry out Mr. Quirk: Clause 7 refers mainly to the tests or, if necessary, to provide the High- regulations concerning gas in the Isle of way and Transport Board with a car to Man, where the Governor in Executive do these tests and also for the payment Council may, by Order, regulate the supply of fees in connection with that official of gas to consumers in the Island and the approval. It is also in this clause that these use of gas by such consumers. An Order tests can be accepted locally and it also regulating the supply of gas to consumers provides that tests which are carried out in the Island may restrict any obligation to in other countries can also be accepted.

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Sub-clause (3) enforces certain prohibi- tions and requirements on suppliers and United Kingdom to consider what they are dealers in new cars which include giving doing, basically, and that we are not going proof of relevant tests, the inclusion of to superimpose in the Isle of Man the same fuel consumption tests in the sales pro- responsibilities here because I have the motional material, comparative results of nasty suspicion at the back of my mind fuel consumption tests on other makes that that large establishment which has of cars must be available for reference, been created out at Tromode for the in- and each new car offered for sale must spection of vehicles will possibly be ex- have attached a specified form showing tended a bit further and we will have more the results of the relevant official tests, and and more officialdom, which I am deadly the results of approved tests on other cars opposed to. are available. The aim of this clause is to promote energy conservation by encourag- Mr. Lowey: You know, Mr. Acting- ing the use and the selection of cars with Speaker, the Isle of Man is a well known fuel consumption suitable for the intended car producing nation and really all of this use and making freely available reliable is, you will notice, for new motor cars, and comparative data for models of other cars to think that this one clause covers nearly on the market based on tests carried out three pages. I too share the hon. Chair- under standard conditions. I beg to move. man of the Finance Board's apprehension because I was about to move an amend- Mr. Anderson: I beg to second and ment, but I notice in (d), if you look hard reserve my remarks. enough you find it, it is for official approval to be extended to tests carried out in other Mr. P. Radcliffe: Mr. Acting-Speaker, countries. Now I would have thought, if there is just one comment I would like to that had been made number 1, and all the make about this. In the explanatory rest following, I might have been . . memorandum at the beginning of this Bill, At least we intend to accept all the official the first clause says, "This Bill, which tests because all motor car manufacturers supersedes the Fuel and Electricity (Con- today in selling their motor cars obviously trol) Act 1973 of Parliament (the 1973 Act), are conscious of the fact that there is an which has been extended to the Isle of energy crisis, the prices and all the rest, Man by a series of Orders in Council .. ." to sell their cars. They do tests to say Now what I am beginning to wonder as their cars will do more miles. The Govern- we go through this Bill, are we again today ment in the United Kingdom have their own passing legislation which, reading about tests and for us in the Isle of Man then to this fuel consumption and inspection of introduce legislation to do this, even in motor cars, begins to make me think that an emergency situation, really does seem somewhere along the line we are going to to me to be going to the "nth" degree. have another establishment checking, and The population of the Isle of Man at 60,000 more checking on Government work, more you know, it really is a pimple on a very legislation will be passed and more civil large expanse. I really think myself, Mr. servants employed to carry out the imple- Acting-Speaker, while approving it, I would mentation of legislation we pass. I sin- underline and stress to whoever comes to cerely hope that we put out a warning implement it that we do not go overboard today that when this legislation is imple- and go to the extremes which could hap- mented, I hope the people responsible in pen. Executive Council or the Highway Board, whoever it may be, will be watching very Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I carefully the situation regarding the con- would just like to ask the mover of the sumption of fuel by motor cars in the Bill, perhaps, to clarify this point. At the

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K23 moment I think on the Island there is no gallon; at a constant speed of 56 miles per onus on sellers of cars to display any hour it does 39.2; at a constant speed of material about what is the mileage of that 75 miles per hour it does 29.4" so we have particular car to a gallon of fuel and I got over 10 miles to the gallon difference could put a car there, and a car there, and within that. It really will depend on who it is up to the customer to judge whether is driving the vehicle. So really, clause 9, (a) will be more economical or (b) will as far as I am concerned, if you just took be more economical. There is no onus it to 9(2) (d) and said simply "for official on me, as a seller of a car, to have any- approval to be extended to tests carried thing there to say that one will do this out in other countries, and for the results and the other will do that. As far as the of such tests to be adopted, certified and standards are concerned, the description published in the Island on new cars for in the Bill here of what shall be or not be sale" that would have been sufficient. I done, it is safe to say that the Isle of Man, will be voting against clause 9, Mr. Acting- I am quite sure, would accept United King- Speaker. dom results of tests and it would be a very Mr. Watterson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, al- hard decision for the Highway and Trans- though I will not be voting against clause port Board to have to make, to do these 9 because it seems to have a certain particular tests in addition to the load of element of necessity in it, the one thing other work which the Board has anyway and I have not yet found really as far as these I for one would be resisting such a move cars are concerned is the regulation on for the Manx Government to initiate and what is a tremendously growing market of undertake tests which would be only second-hand cars. It is not new cars which duplicates of what is already done in the I think cause the petrol consumption prob- United Kingdom. I would say that the lems but it is the older ones and even a mover will probably clarify the point that new car can go out of tune within a sellers of cars on the Island have no need matter of months. Literally, you can have a at this moment to display any statistics car tuned and it can be out of tune again regarding fuel consumption. within about three months. This Island, without a full "M.O.T." testing system, has Mr. Cringle: I think that again as with more than its fair share of bangers on the clause 5, which was totally unworkable, roads as well so I would, therefore, sug- clause 9 is totally unnecessary. It is as gest that if we are going to go a stage simple as that. As the hon. member said, further maybe later, we should look at the we have three pages on clause 9 which regulations which control the petrol con- really, basically, amount to nothing. All we sumption of older cars. Those of you who are doing is saying, yes, the Highway Board have had, or are given the rare chance at some time in the future can run all these of a little time perhaps to watch the tele- official tests and when we consider that vision, will have noticed that fairly recently manufacturers of cars, and really we should there was a film about a particular State be dealing with manufacturers of cars, in the United States which had entered they are going to use it as a selling point this very simple system of checking and anyway and if you do run the tests . . . tuning cars before the car was allowed to I will not advertise but I have brought with go on the road again and the millions of me a little description of what is placed dollars that this had actually saved for the now on new motor cars by statute in the State economy was quite unbelievable. United Kingdom when they are displayed Therefore, although this goes far enough, for sale and even in this explanation it I would suggest that in the case of emer- says: "Simulated urban driving — this par- gency some of our older vehicles should ticular vehicle does 27.9 miles to the be looked at instead of the new ones.

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Mrs. Quayle: That is just the point I was Members: No, no. going to make. This clause, although it may be all right theoretically, it is the Mr. Christian: Surely the objections two things that matter. It is the way you which have been raised, and which I can look after the car and the way you drive it, understand, will be covered where it says and that is the point I was making this in this clause, "relevant official tests", that morning. If you jam your right foot down is on page 10, sub-clause (3)(a), or even on either the accelerator or the brake you at the beginning in line 1, "providing for are, in fact, wasting petrol and, in my test results." Perhaps the mover would opinion, there should be some sort of consider, before we come to the third campaign to publicise the fact that people reading, to include in the definitions at should drive sensibly and, if necessary, go the end of it that relevant official tests as far as introducing speed limits. should include any tests carried out in the United Kingdom and so on and that would Mr. Delaney: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I could be all we would need, surely. not let the comment made by the hon. mem- ber for Middle, Mr. Watterson, go by with- The Acting-Speaker: Does any other hon out saying something on it because I feel member wish to speak? that in no way would I support — and I hope other members will make this clear Mr. Craine: I agree with most of the hon. — bringing in "M.O.T." tests in the Isle members. I shall be voting against this. of Man. I think we have gone far, far The particular thing that gets me is that enough. In a small Island, as pointed out the dealer shall have to have taken ap- by my hon. friend, the member for Rushen, proved tests for cars which he deals in 65,000 people, with restrictions and the but also for those which he does not rest of it, there are simpler ways of re- deal in. stricting speed, by putting speed limits on roads outside the towns, if you wish to do Mr. Anderson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I am that. But "M.O.T." tests will not, I believe, just a little concerned that people feel do anything if you start working that way. they should vote against this. I would Let us start limiting the capacity of engines. remind you again that this is merely Rolls Royces were mentioned earlier. If a enabling legislation and it is not compel- Bill was ever brought in this House for ling anybody to do anything. I know some bringing in "M.O.T." tests, I would move an hon. members have said we do not make amendment to restrict Rolls Royces cars in the Isle of Man but at least parts because that is how ridiculous the situa- of cars are made in the Isle of Man by tion has become. (Laughter.) We are Marown Engineering; oddly enough, it is talking about stopping the ordinary man Volvo. who can only afford a small second-hand car and put the onus on him to be putting The Acting-Speaker: The question be- the cost back on him, while somebody is fore the House is that clause 9 stands burning twice as much fuel in a Rolls part of the Bill. All those in favour please Royce. I think this Island has gone far too say aye; against no. The ayes have it. far to the right and it is a dangerous posi- tion to be in. I am very sad to hear the Mr. Cringle: Could I be recorded against, member for Middle coming up with such please? a suggestion in this debate. Mr. Craine: Could I also be recorded Mr. Watterson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, can against, please? I. on a point of clarification, reply to that? (Interruptions.) The Acting-Speaker: Clause 10.

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Mr. Quirk: Clause 10 provides that name, but at least a Parliament of a de- Orders made under this Bill shall be laid pendent territory, the right to say whether before Tynwald at the first available sit- an Order in Council made in England ting after such an Order has been made, under English legislation shall be effec- excepting Orders under clause 3(a) and tive here, when it is conceivable that it that is when there is an emergency crisis will have no relevance whatsoever to the and these Orders, unless confirmed at Isle of Man. I beg to move that amend- that sitting or the next available sitting, ment standing in my name. would not be regarded as being passed. This provides the power to make any inci- Mr. Delaney: I rise to second the hon. dental, supplementary or transitional provi- member's amendment, Mr. Acting-Speaker, sions which may appear appropriate and to for the reasons he has pointed out. I give directions where such powers are would also like to know when the legal conferred by the Bill to all or any class draftsman is working on Bills in the of persons to whom directions should be future, if he will take into consideration given. That is, in the event of a series what the hon. member for West Douglas of individual directions having been given, has said. Many times we have passed it would be possible in the event of an Bills here in the last three years where amendment being required to put all these small sub-clauses like this have actually amendments under the one heading and bound us to decisions made in another make it a general Order, and this would place and I feel myself the time is fast clarify a lot of administrative points. coming when we have to make all these decisions for ourselves. Mr. Anderson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. Mr. Watterson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I would speak just on two points here. Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I Sub-clause (2) says, "Powers conferred have tabled an amendment to this clause. by this Act to make an Order include It would delete the words on the second power to make any incidental, supplemen- line on page 12, "section 3(a) or". Now tary . . . " and so on, which really was 3(a) says that where there is an Order what I was referring to in my previous in Council under the Energy Act, that is speech as far as second-hand cars were an Act of Parliament, the Governor in concerned. I am sorry the hon. member Council may then make an Order corre- for East Douglas mistook what I said. He sponding thereto. Tynwald will, under the was making so much noise, shaking his Bill as it is printed, have no say what- head and sucking through his teeth at soever in confirming or rejecting that the time, he did not actually hear what Order. Now, I can appreciate that if an I was saying. (Laughter.) What I actually energy crisis hits Britain we will be in did say was that new cars are usually it as much as the United Kingdom and, all right, they come out of the showroom, in fact, if there are Orders they will be supposedly, although I have heard other- Orders emanating, initially, from the wise, in fairly good order. It is the vast United Kingdom Government under the number of second-hand cars which tend Energy Act of 1976. We have in the past, to go out of tune, which tend to need I think, unwittingly adopted English attention, which tend to use more fuel. legislation to our detriment. I am think- What I was saying was, in the case of ing of things like the Wireless Tele- emergency—the last thing I would suggest graphy Act of 1949, of unhappy memory, is putting "M.O.T." tests in or having traffic and, therefore, I feel that we should re- wardens and all the other things that go tain, not as a Sovereign Parliament, with that, I fully agree with him—what I because we cannot give ourselves that was saying was, there may come a time

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. K26 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 in an emergency when second-hand cars, own rights, and looking at the wide powers which use a large volume of fuel, need in the Schedule which have been attention, and also, if they were able to given, I have been looking at the small get such attention, it would work in favour print to see, in fact, whether they are of the person concerned. That was the justified. On perusal I do think there are point I was making, so that could be sufficient safeguards to warrant us accept- covered under 10(2) in this question. ing the Schedule, but I would again point to this question of what I call supra- The Acting-Speaker: The question be- national authority. In paragraph 7, deal- fore the House is clause 10, to which I ing with non-disclosure of information, have an amendment, the deletion of the there is a blanket prohibition on the dis- words "section 3(a) or" in line 2. I put closure of information except from, the amendment to the House. All those amongst other people, "the International in favour please say aye; against, no. The Energy Agency in pursuance of obligations ayes have it. And now I put clause 10, as incumbent on the Island to transmit the amended, to the House. All those in information or see to its transmission." I favour please say aye; against, no. The am always pleased to find out what obli- ayes have it. May we now have clause 11, gations are incumbent on the Island together with Schedule 2. because, as a member of this House, am not altogether sure what those obli- Mr. Quirk: Clause 11 and Schedule 2. gations are and, in fact, who makes them Schedule 2 is in respect of administra- on behalf of us all here, so if I could tion and enforcement of the Bill and hear from you, perhaps on the third makes it an offence to contravene or fail reading, what is the International Energy to comply with provisions made under Agency and what obligations are already the Bill. Briefly, may I say that offences incumbent on us? include wilful obstruction, furnishing false information, the possession and use of Mr. Quirk: Thank you for your com- documents with intent to deceive, and in ments. I will hope to reply at the next sub-clauses (3) and (4) provides where reading. an offence by a body corporate is proved to have been committed with the consent The Acting-Speaker: I put to the House or connivance of an officer of that body clause 11, together with Schedule 2. All corporate or a person purporting to act those in favour please say aye; against, as such, he shall be guilty of such an no. The ayes have it. Clause 12. offence, and also where such a body as is managed by its members shall apply Mr. Quirk: This clause makes provision to the managers in relation to acts in for penalties for which persons guilty of default in a similar manner. I beg to move offences against the Bill will be liable and that clause 11 and Schedule 2 stand part it is set out in clause 12. I beg to move. of the Bill. Mr. Anderson: I beg to second. Mr. Anderson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. The Acting-Speaker: Clause 12 has been proposed and seconded. All those in Mr. Kermeen: I am sorry, Mr. Acting- favour please say aye; against, no. The Speaker, to be so often on my feet on ayes have it. Clauses 13, 14 and 15. this Bill, but when we are dealing with emergency legislation we are faced with Mr. Quirk: Clauses 13, 14 and 15. Clause the age-old dilemma that we may be 13 provides that any expenses incurred taking away from private individuals their by Government departments in the admini-

Energy Bill—Clauses Considered. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K27

stration of this Bill will be paid out of bers held office until their successors money provided by Tynwald. Clause 14 were elected after the following General interprets the various terms used in the Election. The 1968 Act introduced the Bill. Clause 15 provides the short title present membership of Council. Since it and makes provision for the commence- provided for a specific number from each ment of the Bill. I beg to move, sir. Eranch, the Branches themselves nomin- ated their members at their sittings at I beg to second. Mr. Anderson: least 14 days before the Tynwald elections to Executive Council, which remained un- The Acting-Speaker: I put to the House changed under the 1961 Act, namely, the that clauses 13, 14 and 15 stand part of sitting after the sitting at which Chairmen the Bill. All those in favour please say and members of Boards were appointed. aye; against, no. The ayes have it. That Tynwald then voted on the nominations as concludes the second reading stage of out forward by the Branches. With the the Energy Bill. introduction of the Members of Boards (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, a uniform life for all Boards, except the MEMBERS OF EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Finance Board, was introduced and a mid- (TERMS OF OFFICE) BILL — SECOND term change over point determined for all READING APPROVED; CLAUSES Board members during the life of the House CONSIDERED. of Keys. The re-election of Executive Coun- cil subsequent upon these re-elections was, The Acting-Speaker: We row come to therefore, a logical step. Using as an ex- Members of Executive Council (Terms of ample the impending Board election under Office) Bill 1979 for second reading. I call the Members of Boards (Miscellaneous upon the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. P. Provisions) Act 1976, the first time, inciden- Radcliffe. tally, that the Act has to be effected, all present membership will determine on 21st M•. P. Radcliffe: Mr. Acting-Speaker, the December this year. Obviously, members Lieutenant Governor's Executive Council will continue to exercise their functions on was established by the Constitution Act of their present Boards until they are re- 1961 and at its outset comprised the elected or their successor is elected by Chairman of Finance Board, the Chairmen Tynwald at the sitting on 15th January of four Boards of Tynwald elected by Tyn- 1980. Provided this Bill at that stage has wald, and two members of Tynwald appoin- received Royal Assent, the membership of ted by the Governor himself. The member- Executive 'Council will fall for re-election shin of the Council was changed by the at the sitting of Tynwald on 19th February 1968 Constitution Act which brought the 1980, the Branches making their nomina- membership into its present form and, in tions on 5th February. The elections sub- particular, removed the Governor's two sequent upon a General Election will re- aopointments and the qualifications of a main unaffected by the Bill, and the mem- Board Chairmanship for the other mem- bers of Council elected after the mid- bers. As originally established, the Selec- term election of Boards will hold office tion Committee of Tynwald nominated the until their successors are elected. Mr. four Chairmen and these nominations then Acting-Speaker, I beg to move the second had to be approved by Tynwald. Elections reading of the Members of Executive took place at the first sitting of Tynwald Council (Terms of Office) Bill. after the sitting at which the election of Chairmen and members of Boards of Tyn- wald was finally completed, subsequent to Mr. Anderson: I beg to second and each General Election of the Keys. Mem- reserve my remarks.

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Mr. Delaney: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I word stuck in my mind when the hon. could wait until the clauses stage, but I mover of the Bill turned round and said, wonder if the hon. mover of the Bill will it is a logical step to introduce this Bill explain where we have a situation in at this particular time. It is to me a clause 1(2) — "Subject to subsections logical step because this House has (3) and (4) the term of office of every changed the role of Executive Govern- elected member of the Executive Council ment and that is what we were doing in elected at or after the day of the said the Bill we discussed earlier this morn- first sitting of Tynwald shall be for a term ing, the Governor's General Functions of three years or, where there is a (Transfer) Bill. So there is a pattern General Election of the House of Keys established. We have changed the role before the expiration of that term, until of Executive Council. We are saying now the third sitting . . . " — and they are that in the future Executive Council will the words — "the third sitting of Tynwald be re-elected mid term and at the start following that General Election." Well, as of each term. To me, it seems logical, the Council is made up of members of proper and the right thing to do at the both Branches, we now have a situation right time. where it is possible that the members of this hon. House could lose their seats. Dr. Moore: Mr. Acting-Speaker, like the We have a term, an expiry date, where hon. member for Middle, Mr. Catlin, I feel we would not be represented in that parti- a little bit worried about the speed with cular Branch. Do I understand that cor- which things change these days, maybe rectly, Mr. Acting-Speaker? it is old age coming on, but there is obviously a lot to be said for continuity Mr. Anderson: They continue in exist- in policy and experience. I would welcome ence. an assurance from the mover of this Bill that the intention is to take this oppor- Mr. Catlin: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I would tunity for fine tuning rather than major like to ask the mover of this Bill what surgery, so that there is continuity of is the reason for bringing it forward at personnel and policy throughout the whole this time? As far as I can see, there is term of the Keys. no precedent for this. The members of Executive Council were, three years ago, Dr. Mann: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I think elected for a five year term. I can under- the vast majority of members would wel- stand the principle of the Bill and I would come this Bill and even welcome the support the principle of the Bill because, speed with which it has been introduced. after all, it brings it in line with the terms Firstly, and I take the point made by my of appointment of other Boards, but what hon. friend from Rushen, the responsibili- I do not understand is what I would ties and powers of the Executive Council term the indecent haste, the way that this have been changed by this House during has been dealt with. I would have thought the last three years, and the powers now that members of Executive Council were in possession of Executive Council are elected for a five year term and should considerably different from those when have been allowed to carry that through, we first started, so I think there is and then at the end of the five year every reason, at this point, to introduce this period this could have been implemented. break. It is very necessary to get the (Ole of Executive Council in relation to Boards Mr. Lowey: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I rise to and members right, as the hon. mover has just get clear that I welcome the Bill as said, as he gave the historical develop- another step along the evolutionary road ment. Obviously, the role and powers of that we in the Island take. Really, one Executive Council have been changed

Members of Executive Council (Terms of Office) Bill—Second Reading Approved; Clauses Considered. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K29

reasonably frequently in the last few ment, in a proper balance. I think this is years and in a way a lot of members, I what we should think about. The other think, would support even a limited going point I would like to make is, if this is back to original ideas of certain Board done, of course, and I suspect it might well Chairmen automatically being on Execu- be done from time to time, that if Executive tive Council, for instance. In fact, I would Council decide on a particular aspect of think, reading back over the history of policy, legislation or co-ordination, with- these developments, of course, the big out the presence of the Chairman of a conflict is as to whether you choose your Board or Committee who has no place on spending Boards or your earning Boards Executive Council, I do not think this or your Boards with maximum legislative should take place without Executive responsibility; that, in fact, the selection Council hearing and having at the meeting of who should hold these seats on Execu- the particular Chairman of this particular tive Council is open to argument. But I Board. This is a hypothetical case, it may think there is quite a strength of opinion not happen, but if it does happen, it building up that we should look at again should not happen. the original concept of just whether certain Board Chairmen should, by right, Mr. Anderson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, the be sitting on Executive Council once again hon. member for Middle, Mr. Catlin, is right in view of the changed role and powers that, in fact, Executive Council were elec- of that Council. But I think the principle ted for five years, but this Committee has is important, that if all the Boards are to met in the meantime and I was a member be automatically changed at the end of of the Committee which made recommen- three years, Executive Council should dations and I understood they were actually also do the same and it would introduce going to take effect as and from the next an element, in the five year period, that term of the House of Keys, but if it is the at the end of three years, members should will of the House, I accept it is democracy be open to re-election by other members that, in fact, they ought to be voted on, the of Boards, so I fully support this. I support re-appointment of Executive Council, at the the speed with which it has been intro- end of three years as is a Board of Tyn- duced. The only question open to the wald. I would agree with the hon. mem- future, I would say, is whether in fact we ber for Ramsey, that if there is in Execu- ought at some point to reconsider whether tive Council any Board who has not got there should be actual fixed Chairman- representation on that and there is some ships or responsibilities within Executive major matter to be considered, the Chair- Council itself now that we have a changed man of that Board or a representative if role as well. he is not available, should have a right to appear and put his case on behalf of his Mr. Swales: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I cer- Board before any decision is made. But tainly support the sentiments expressed by one must always remember that, in fact, the hon. member for Garff, Dr. Mann. any decision that Executive Council will Executive Council is a policy-making, a take is only a matter of machinery. It co-ordinating, even a legislative committee, comes before Tynwald, subsequently. and for this reason I, too, feel that pos- There is not much really that is effective sibly we should think about the balance of except in relation to emergency powers membership on this committee; not neces- and even they have got to be ratified by sarily one between Upper House and Lower Tynwald, but it is important that where House, but whether, in fact, we have the major policy changes are taking place and right balance of membership, of Chairmen there is no representative of a Board, of spending departments, of earning depart- they ought to have the opportunity of ap- ments, of service departments of Govern- pearing before Executive Council.

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Mr. Creer: Yes, Mr. Acting-Speaker. I idea which is now embodied in the 1961 am going to support the Bill. I am rather Constitution Act, but the idea of a three surprised that it has been done with such term period is, I think, essential. May I haste but, nevertheless, I will be supporting just mention one point, sir, made by the it, I think it is necessary. But I support hon. member for Garff, about having the the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. Swales, composition of Executive Council in some in what he said about the balance of way restricted by saying it is only for the Executive Council. In 1976, was it, the Chairmen of the major Boards. I think that start of this legislative term, we had detracts from the ability of both Branches Executive Council come up in the second to choose whom they like and whom they and third sittings of the House of Keys, for think is best for Executive Council. Execu- election to Executive Council. Now, what tive Council is the cutting edge of Tynwald happened? We had 12 or 13 new members policy, and it is up to Executive Council in and they never thought anything at all to pursue it. Now it has been my unfor- about the balance of Executive Council. tunate experience that while I, as a back- Personalities came into it. You will find, Mr. bencher, put suggestions and make repre- Acting-Speaker, that after the elections to sentations to Executive Council, they, Executive Council there were three mem- probably quite rightly, tend to ignore them. bers of one Board on it, the Local Govern- Now, I can say, well, they know better ment Board. The hon. member for Glen- than I do, they are a composite body and faba, Mr. Anderson, and two hon. members they are making some sort of composite who are now Council members, Mr. Mac- decision and therefore I must abide by it, Donald and Mr. Moore, were elected to but there is this tendency, and I will not Executive Council, so there you had three hold it against the present Executive of one Board on Executive Council. Where Council, that if they are there for five was the balance there? Three of the one years they are going to be very com- Board was the majority of the Local Gov- placent and there is a possibility that they ernment Board, so I would agree with Mr. will adopt negative inaction rather than Swales, the hon. member for Ramsey, that positive action. Therefore, nothing would there should be something done about the concentrate their minds better than their balance of it. I would have liked to have having a three year term and being subject seen this start from the end of this term to re-election by the people who put them really, but, nevertheless, I will accept it there in the first place. I entirely support because I think it is democracy but it has the principle of the Bill. not gone far enough. I would say, Mr. Acting-Speaker, that we should look at all Committees, Consultative Committees and The Acting-Speaker: Does any other hon. every Committee, the same three years; also member wish to speak? If not, does the the Finance Board, three years, and I would hon. member wish to reply? go as far as saying Mr. Speaker's position should be challenged every three years Mr. P. Radcliffe: Yes, Mr. Acting- too by the Selection Committee. (Interrup- Speaker, very much so. There has been tions.) No, by us in this House, and that so much general comment about the situ- is what it should be, every three years, ation. I would just like to elaborate, first and let us have it for the lot. of all, on the principle. The hon. member Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Acting-Speaker, of for Middle said, "Why the haste?". Now, necessity, I have known the history of as far as I can see it, and I mentioned Executive Council from its first beginnings this in my comments, the logical situation which emerged at the end of the war. The is that all members of Boards are reviewed MacDermott Commission put forward the in membership at the end of three years.

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We have Executive Council, as has already of Boards within Tynwald or the member- been said, and we all understand it is ship of the Boards of Tynwald, you could elected for five years. At the end of the then find the situation that you have got three year period, when House of Keys people on Executive Council who realty members have been elected, the occasion are not carrying the responsibility of the can arise, as may well happen this time, Board that has the greatest impact on whereby one member of the Legislative policy matters within the Government. I Council is about to retire, so therefore have been a member of Executive Council somebody from this House, possibly, will for some considerable years, and it has be elected to the Council. That can then been said, let us shuffle them all at the create a situation whereby you could have end of three years, whether they are membership of the Executive Council that Finance Board or not. I would hon- is not in being and in line with the think- estly say it would be a great mistake ing of the members of the House of Keys. to reshuffle Finance Board members This has been very strongly emphasised (Laughter.) It takes us at least two years by the hon. member for Garff, Dr. Mann. to make our minds up on what you want I personally think, and have done for many us to do, and then we want a further three years, that if this Tynwald Court, as such, years to implement your desires, but I do, are deciding who are the people who Mr. Acting-Speaker, recommend the hon. carry the responsibility of Chairmen of members to accept the principle of this Boards, I, like him, am very much in favour change. I think it is one that has not been of the situation whereby the principal Board done with any great haste, it has not been Chairmen should be on Executive Coun- done without a lot of thought. It is a logi- cil. Although we have said, and the legis- cal thing to do and I recommend it to the lation was altered to make it possible for hon. members. members of Tynwald to elect to Executive Council the members they thought fit, I The Acting-Speaker: The question be- am sure, and quite possibly rightly so, fore the House is the second reading of I am certain in their minds at the time the Members of Executive Council (Terms they elected those people that they were of Office) Bill 1979. All those in favour the people who could have the biggest please say aye; against, no. The ayes impact, policy-wise, shall I say, on the have it. Clause 1, please. whole Government of the Isle of Man. To me, you have one glaring example, and I Mr. P. Radcliffe: Clause 1, Mr. Acting- will put this forward. We talked about Speaker, says, "The term of office of many aspects as to the benefit of the every elected member of the Executive general community of the Isle of Man, Council shall, subject to subsection (3), bearing in mind on lots of occasions that expire on the day of the first sitting of the people who are, I would not say under Tynwald next after the commencement of privileged, but the people who have not this Act." This is straightforward. The hon. got the financial backgrounds, shall I say, member for East Douglas referred to sub- that many of the community have and that clause (2) of clause 1. "Subject to sub- is going back to the work of the Board sections (3) and (4), the term of office of Social Security. I personally think that of every elected member of the Executive we should bear these matters in mind Council elected at or after the day of when we are electing Chairmen for Exe- the said first sitting of Tynwald shall be cutive Council, and if you are to go on for a term of three years or, where there with the situation that Executive Council is a General Election of the House of could remain in being for five years, and Keys before the expiration of that term, at the end of a three year period you re- until the third sitting of Tynwald follow- shuffle quite a number of your Chairmen ing that General Election." All members

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of Executive Council, whether they be in less time than three months. I think Keys members or Legislative Council mem- haste many a time can put you in a situa- bers, will in future be elected for three tion where you have a more difficult years, and I think the concern of the hon. situation than you have got and the House member is that they could find — clarify needs time to consider where the Board's it for me if you will — but the situation responsibilities are and who the Chairman as I understand it, your concern is that is going to be. It has been the principle possibly you could have an Executive in the past and I am certain it is a prin- Council without Keys members but with ciple that has worked reasonably well and Legislative Council members. will continue to do so in the future. Sub- clause (3) says, "Notwithstanding the Mr. Delaney: For three months. expiration or sooner determination under sub-section (1) or (2) of the term of office Mr. P. Radcliffe: But Executive Council of the elected members of the Executive could not sit as an Executive Council Council, the then members of that Council unless they had a quorum there and it is shall remain in office, and be deemed to be a balance at the present moment of five members of that Council until their members of the House of Keys and two successors have been elected." This, as members of the Council. you are all aware, is the principle regarding any Board of Tynwald and the same prin- Mr Delaney: What I was pointing out ciple holds here as far as Executive Coun- was, why did you come to the three cil is concerned. Business must go on. months we are talking about? Government policy must be continued and it is obvious, therefore, that you must have The Acting•Speaker: I wonder, if the members of Executive Council and, as I hon. member has questions . said, they will remain in office until a new Council is elected. Sub-clause (4). "A Mr. Delaney: It is a point of clarification, person who is elected to fill a casual Mr. Acting-Speaker. It is the third sitting vacancy in the Executive Council shall of Tynwald, which as we know is normally hold office until the expiration of the term three months after the election date, so which the member whom he replaced would we could have a situation where for three have served." That again is a situation months we could have five members of where it could happen, possibly, in this Executive Council who are not members next change in membership of Executive of the House of Keys. That to me seems to Council, if we have a resignation and a be going to the far extreme. new member elected to it. I beg to move that clause 1 stands part of the Bill. Mr. P. Radcliffe: The hon. member will clearly recollect that the Selection Com- Mr. Anderson: I beg to second and re- mittee has to meet to nominate members serve my remarks. for Boards, and all those Boards have to be put before Tynwald for their decision, either they agree or they do not, and with Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Acting-Speaker, there the three months, which it has been in the is just a technical point here. Perhaps the past, it has become extremely difficult to hon. member would correct me if I am get it through before that time. You have wrong on this. The law which we are got to put forward your members for selec- repealing is connected with the timetable tion, then Tynwald has to agree on the and it says that the election to Executive Boards, we have then to decide who shall Council will take place at the sitting of be members of those Boards and I do not Tynwald next after the sitting of Tynwald think for one minute that it can be done at which the first election of Chairmen

Members of Executive Council (Terms of Office) Bill—Second Reading Approved; Clauses Considered. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K33 and members of Boards of Tynwald is (3), and the repeal of section 16 is the finally completed, subsequent to a General Isle of Man Constitution Act 1961, which Election of the Keys — finally completed. is the one which I have mentioned already Nov you are introducing a specific date, in my introductory comments to the Bill. I namely, the third sitting of Tynwald, and I beg to move that clauses 2, 3, 4 and 5 was wondering, in fact, whether there is a and Schedules 1 and 2 stand part of the possibility that at that third sitting of Tyn- Bill. wald the election of Chairmen and mem- bers of Boards of Tynwald might not be Mr. Anderson: I beg to second and re- finally completed? serve my remarks. The Acting-Speaker: I put to the House Mr. P. Radcliffe: Yes, Mr. Acting-Speaker, clauses 2, 3, 4 and 5, together with I would not say for one minute that Schedules 1 and 2. All those in favour there is no possibility of that and it is a please say aye; against, no. The ayes have matter, if you so desire, which we can it. That completes the second reading look at between now and the third reading stage. Before I announce the adjournment and give it due consideration. It has only of the House, I wonder if hon. members been drawn to my attention now and I am will stay just for a few minutes in private prepared to give further consideration to in order to discuss the procedure for this that point before we come to the third afternoon. The House will stand adjourned reading. until 2.30 p.m.

The Acting-Speaker: I put clause 1 to The House adjourned for lunch. the House. All those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. I wonder, sir, if you would like to take clauses 2, 3, 4 and 5 together, incorporating Schedule CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (TRANSFER 1 with clause 3 and Schedule 2 with clause OF FUNCTIONS) BILL — SECOND 4. READING APPROVED; CONSIDERATION OF CLAUSES DEFERRED FOR ONE WEEK. Mr. P. Radcliffe: Yes, Mr. Acting-Speaker. The interpretation clause. ". . . 'elected The Acting Speaker: The next business member of the Executive Council' means a before the House is the Customs and member of that Council elected by Tyn- Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill for wald pursuant to section 14 of the Isle of second reading and I call upon the hon. Man Constitution Act 1961." This is quite member for Ayre, Mr. P. Radcliffe. straightforward. Clause 3. "The enactments mentioned in Schedule 1 shall be amen- Mr. P. Radcliffe: Mr. Acting-Speaker and ded in accordance with that Schedule." hon. members, as you are well aware, this Schedule 1 determines the various enact- is the Bill which, when enacted, will trans- ments which will have to be altered to fer the functions of Her Majesty's Com- bring them into line with the Bill. Clause missioners of Customs and Excise in the 4, repeals. "The enactments mentioned in Isle of Man to the Isle of Man Government. Schedule 2 (which include certain enact- A similar United Kingdom Bill is, I under- ments which have had their effect or are stand, today being introduced into the otherwise unnecessary) are hereby re- House of Commons. These Bills have been pealed to the extent mentioned in the drafted consequent on the signing at the third column of that Schedule." If you look Home Office on 15th October of the at that Schedule you will find that the Customs and Excise Agreement 1979 extent of the repeal is section 16(1) to entered into between ourselves and the

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Government of the United Kingdom upon commences with a knowledgeable and which I reported to Tynwald last week. competent staff in order that the present Once this Bill is enacted there will be a very high standards of administration and considerable amount of subordinate legis- control can be maintained after the take- lation in the form of Orders and regula- over. Clerical and secretarial support for tions to be laid before Tynwald for the experienced Customs officials will be approval. To ensure that the Manx Customs recruited locally. From April, the Civil Ser- and Excise service operates from 1st April vice Commission will be the sole body for 1980, it will be necessary for such sub- recruiting all new officers for the Customs ordinate legislation to be approved by the service. From that date, serving officers March Tynwald, and it is, therefore, essen- will be able to transfer from and to the tial that the Bill before you today has Manx Customs and Excise service as and Royal Assent announced to Tynwald in when vacancies arise. From April the main time for those orders and regulations to changes to be seen will be that Customs be approved. Working backwards, there- and Excise and value added tax will be fore, hon. members will realise that this administered by officers of the Isle of Man Bill must complete all its stages here and Government rather than by persons em- elsewhere fairly quickly if the transfer date ployed by another Government. Manx- of 1st April is to be achieved, as unfortu- registered value added tax traders will be nately we have a very tight schedule in required to submit their returns and cash which to work. Arrangements are now to, or where necessary obtain refunds from, proceeding with the setting up of the new the Manx authority rather than the United service. The Civil Service Commission, in Kingdom value added tax unit at Southend- co-operation with the British Customs and on-Sea. There may be some other changes Excise service, is making offers to the of a minor nature, but Customs duties and United Kingdom staff currently based in taxes will remain at the same rates as Douglas, where the present staff comple- heretofore, and will be subject to the same ment numbers about 20 persons. It is exemptions and reliefs as in the United hoped that about a dozen of those persons Kingdom. If it should be the decision of might agree to join our service, which will the Isle of Man to vary any duties, taxes, gradually be built up to about 35 people. reliefs, et cetera, it will be necessary to This additional establishment is required give three months' notice to the United because many of the operations presently Kingdom Commissioners of Customs and performed outside the Island by Customs Excise and to agree with them the varia- headquarters' staff in Liverpool, London tions requested. If our two Governments and Southend, which, I must emphasise, fail to agree, then it would be possible to we already pay for, will be carried out in terminate the Agreement finalised last week Doug!as with effect from next April. The and abandon the agreed arrangements for totes cost of administration should not the sharing of the equal duties. It is not exceed what the cost would be if we con- the intention of Finance Board to recom- tinued with our present arrangement. mend any variation to the existing rates of Officers in the United Kingdom service duties and taxes at this moment in time. presently working throughout the United To remind hon. members, the equal duties Kingdom who may wish to join the Manx are those duties of Customs, Excise and service are being given the opportunity to value added tax which are levied at the apply for a position here. It is possible same rates and under the same conditions that there may be some Manx exiles who in both the Isle of Man and the United King- would welcome the opportunity of return- dom. The duties collected in both countries ing to their native isle. Here I must stress are shared in ratio to their resident popula- that it is essential that the new service tions and, in addition, of course, the Island

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receives a credit for the number of tourist Mr. Watterson: Fair comment, you can arrivals. To some extent this move is turn- come back on that later if you wish. The ing the clock back prior to 1765 when the second thing is this, that we then agreed, Island had its own Customs administration, and I personally think that this perhaps is and the changes now envisaged will where we made our error, but we agreed demonstrate to outside investors that the that an Agreement could be signed based Isle of Man is no longer controlled from on those Heads of Agreement. A matter of Westminster but is able to maintain, and a day or so, two days before that Agree- hopefully expand, its own system of finan- ment was signed, we got a copy of the cial control independent of outside in- Agreement, again classified, and we got a fluences. Mr. Acting-Speaker, I beg to move copy of the Bill which we have been deal- the Customs and Excise (Transfer of ing with today, again classified, which Functions) Bill be read a second time. would normally prohibit any investigation or any outside expertise looking at this Mr. Kermeen: I beg to second and re- Bill. I have been able to, in the short time serve my remarks. available, get not just the point of view Mr. Watterson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I find on the excellence of some of the things myself in a quandary today, or I did earlier or some of the wishes within this Bill and on, and I am sure many other hon. mem- with the Agreement, but some of the prob- bers of this hon. House found themselves lems that go with it as well, and I do in the same position. Ever since I have believe that there are many items still not been in this House I have advocated the answered. Although we have no wish to separation of the operations of the Isle of interrupt something which is desirable, this Man Government from that controlled by House will no doubt remember that many the United Kingdom Government and in- pieces of legislation over the past 30 to deed the Common Purse Agreement and 40 years have been put through at the the operation of Customs fell within my time and subsequently have provided con- desires there. However, the one thing that siderable embarrassment to further Houses I am deeply concerned about is not in the years that followed. I will give you whether we should do it, and I would like an illustration of one of the things which to make it absolutely clear that I am not does concern me. We are transferring, so opposing in any way the separation of the we are told, from United Kingdom appoin- Isle of Man from the United Kingdom ted officers to Isle of Man appointed Customs, what I am querying is some of the officers, various authorities and duties. ways perhaps in which we are doing it. There is no question that Customs and Now, I have, within the limited time avail- Excise officials have powers considerably able to us and I use the words limited in excess of those of the police. They time advisedly because I am sure you are have powers of entry, they have powers all aware that the Heads of Agreement of arrest, they have an extreme appeared with an embargo on it fairly near number of powers which, to my mind, in a to the Tynwald debate when we had to society of this size, are perhaps unwise give approval, and I think it would be fair in a department of Government that is to say that many of the members of this not the police. The actual thing that they House have not given those Heads of may do, and I am quoting here — "entry, Agreement perhaps quite the reading and search, seizure, detention or removal, consideration they would have liked to break open any door, window or container have done, with the exception of the hon. or force or remove any other impediment or member, Mr. Peter Craine. obstruction." The point I would first of all like to make is, should such powers be A member: You speak for yourself. possessed by civil servants as opposed to

Customs and Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Deferred for One Week. K36 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 the police in a country of this size, and is my instructions from London." (Interrup- it necessary? Have we not already got the tion.) The point I am making is that we system in force by which a particular are taking over a group of United Kingdom department could go to the police and if officials and we talk about recruitment these powers are necessary, and I would within the United Kingdom. I am not en- question whether they are, should not the tirely happy with that either. We have been powers of the police be increased to cope told that it is necessary for the skilled with this particular thing? It is already people, there is no other means of us get- happening in the United Kingdom that the ting them. Well, I would question that and I police, on occasions, have used Customs would question whether by agreeing to and Excise officials to help them in their take over and to recruit in the United King- duties because they have these excessive dom we are not going directly against the powers. Recently in the press there was principles which Tynwald has already an example which was shown where a established and that is that where possible group of people were using citizen band we recruit and train locally. This would radio in a house illegally and the Post mean, therefore, that we do not need to Office had picked up the fact that they take in 37, which I understand is the were doing this and when the house was figure, ultimately, of which maybe 10 or visited by both the Post Office and the 15 may be coming in. If I am wrong then police they were in the company of a I would be delighted if somebody would Customs and Excise official who actually explain this afterwards but these are the gained entry into the house and when the facts as they stand at the moment. We matter reached court it was thrown out have been told that the training is a because the Customs and Excise man was specialised training and we need these the only person entitled to be there, by people. I have here an extract out of a his powers, but he was the only one who report which was done for a foreign Gov- did not have a case. My first point is this, ernment who wished to take over its I do think there are questions that need Customs and Excise, and indeed did, but answering, whether these ancient and they were aware that the officials were austere powers, which is the technical not perhaps as well trained as they should word given to them, should be applied to be and were looking at a method of get- the Isle of Man. I am not going to deal ting them trained and they did wish to with the compliance costs of value added make a business arrangement with the tax here today because we are talking United Kingdom Government, that the about the political side for the moment, Customs and Excise School at Heathrow but in the past, as you well know, the local would train them, but they had enough Customs and Excise office has always sense to send specialists to investigate the considered itself to be part of the facilities available before they actually United Kingdom Customs and Excise committed themselves, and they decided and I did have a constituent, who against, because they said it was the does not mind me repeating this, who (lid biggest training organisation within the say that fairly recently he had a problem United Kingdom Civil Service, the Customs with shipping a car from a foreign country and Excise, and when value added tax and when he queried it he said that as a was introduced in 1973, 7,000 people, the matter of principle he wished to take it up majority of them newly recruited, had to with his member of the House of Keys be trained in a very short time. London and he was told by the Customs depart- headquarters is at Heathrow and the per- ment and I have the quote here — "You son who investigated this saw not only might as well raise it with your local the training side but also the procedures butcher as far as I am concerned. I take applicable to the actual jobs, which were

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closely analysised before deciding the con- The second thing I am saying is that if the tents of the courses, and all of those training is limited in such a way, should courses — and these people who are we not now be recruiting and training coming here will have been subject to locally and not recruiting and training in these courses — are very short. No attempt the United Kingdom. I believe that that is a there is made to provide instruction or folly, especially as we have, I am sure, even reading programmes in public ad- people within the Isle of Man who could ministration or fiscal studies. Nothing is be, if necessary, moved into the job and taught about Government policy from other people moved into their jobs within which the work arises and also the alter- the civil service. This report goes on to natives as well, even the relationship be- say that at the mid and junior levels any tween the participant's job and the struc- competent civil servant could be trained ture and function of the Customs and to the job in little over a month, at the Excise department as a whole, and the levels that it is required to reach. As my result is, and this is, I think, the point out hon. colleague, Mr. Peter Craine, explained of this, it is to produce officials of very to this House last July, in the Channel limited outlook whose thinking is extremely Islands, both Guernsey and Jersey, they departmental or rather sub-departmental, have already met this problem and they so much so that they have difficulty in realise they can train better themselves getting value added tax officers to answer and they do not allow other people to the telephone saying "Customs and come in. So that is on that side. The Excise." They prefer to identify themselves second side which I will dwell little on is as the "V.A.T." office. If we go on into the actual Agreement itself, which I find not this about job satisfaction we find that even quite the same as the Heads of Agreement the graduate recruits really only wish to that we approved. I realise that we gave a look at the limited scope of the job they certain amount of latitude to the Finance are doing, and the only people who re- Board to produce an Agreement from ceive training in public administration and those Heads of Agreement but I do feel fiscal studies, which I would have thought that there are certain items in here which mattered, are those selected to go to the do not ring right for a government to have. civil service college. (Interruption.) The (Interruption.) You see, we are talking collector is equivalent to an assistant about agreements, that agreeing to alter secretary in another of the United King- will be done by both parties. If you go dom departments and he does not nor- through all of these things you will find mally have training at the level and is that it frequently refers to agreement by likely to be a very limited individual unable both parties and what we have really been to discuss income or even taxation policies. told today is that the United Kingdom Now, as far as I understand it, again I am Government, if we wish to do anything, quite willing to be proved wrong, but the will still have the power of veto and if we present officials or the people who might do not like their disagreement then we can be in charge of this in the Isle of Man will clear off. In other words, we do not have be two grades below this level, although it quite the same degree of latitude as you will be a head of department here, at the would expect in a business arrangement. senior executive level. I would suggest to It is either we agree, we disagree, or we this House there are two points I would like get out. I would have thought that we you to consider, first of all, whether the should have far more option than that. Customs and Excise officials who have There are provisions for inspection ser- limited training within their own specific vices. I have been told that some of these sphere should have tremendously wide are for procedures, but in reading the sweeping powers in excess of the police. Agreement it does not specify just pro-

Customs and Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Deferred for One Week. K38 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 cedures, it does go a lot further and as far Agreement, that is why I have not gone as the actual restriction of information into them in great length. There are ques- going to the United Kingdom is concerned, tions still unresolved and I believe that I have reason to believe that a different they are very important and I believe we set of criteria now will apply. I believe that are setting a precedent by doing this, be- this is dangerous also. In the past, infor- cause you have to remember that in the mation gained by the Customs and Excise United Kingdom there is no written consti- people, we are told, we have no proof of tution and everything is done by authority this, but we are told, has not been passed or precedent and if we give a precedent, on to the United Kingdom Inland Revenue, not for the same type of inspection as but under the United Kingdom Finance Act the income tax office or the civil service of 1972, section 127, the Customs and Ex- but to an administrative section to investi- cise and Inland Revenue may exchange in- gate, to look at and inspect work in the formation throughout their fields of activity Isle of Man, to bring in civil servants in the and, in fact, despite their argument that way that I believe we are doing, I think they do not, and despite the fact that the that we will be setting the pattern for two departments sometimes have a certain dangerous things in the future. Now, I amount of enmity between them, when it will repeat myself again. I have only given comes to the crunch, they do exchange a very brief outline of some of the things information. They maintain that because that are worrying me. I do believe that they the Isle of Man has had a business arrange- are more serious than this and I do believe ment with them up to now, this information that with the best will in the world, our has not been exchanged. But when we take drafting office, Finance Board, Common over our own Customs, and this informa- Purse Committee and all the others have tion has been provided to me from a source first of all taken advice, possibly, from our which I have reason to believe is relatively constitutional advisers in the United King- reliable, and I would like this fact checked. dom, but I would suggest that predomin- now we are on a new arrangement the antly the drawing-up of this Agreement same ethical obligations will not apply and before it went to that constitutional adviser if the United Kingdom Customs and Excise was done in co-operation with the United people come into possession of informa- Kingdom officials and I believe that there tion which the Inland Revenue require in were no other people involved without the the United Kingdom, as we are now under same sort of vested interest in this Agree- another Government, they will treat it the ment and I would like to see it looked at same way as if it had been information once more because if we pass this Bill, coming in from Canada or New Zealand ultimately, we will give complete legal and could well pass it on. This Agreement effect to that Agreement which I know provides, unquestionably, for free exchange many members of this House are unhappy of information between the United Kingdom about and, therefore, I will suggest that at officers, frequently as far as I can see, on the appropriate time after the second request, in addition to which we have to reading I intend to come back to this pay for collections being made in the House and ask, and it is unusual for me United Kingdom on our behalf, but it does to do this, that the matter goes to a Com- not specify at all whether we would re- mittee which will take professional advice ceive payment for any collection which — there are professional advisers in pub- might well be made in the Isle of Man. lic administration and finance who are I am only producing to you here a number available and could look at this matter of small facts and I know that other mem- very quickly — to report back to this bers of this House have many other points House still in time, if necessary, if the which they have picked up from this report is favourable, to get the Bill

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through. I do believe, to use the words can be done but I do think that we will that one person has already put to me, require a nucleus of experienced people a person in the finance business — if we in order to do this very difficult task which are not careful we are selling our future will require some considerable amount of birthright for a mess, never mind the experience before they are going to have pottage. So I would ask you to consider expertise in that. I believe that in dealing these facts when we go along and after with it in this way, where you maybe have the second reading to consider my sug- a nucleus of 12 people with the experience gestion to you that it should go to a Com- to begin with and add to those and sub- mittee of this House. sequently, I would hope, recruit entirely Mr. Anderson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, unlike from the Island, if possible, an entire the hon. member who has just resumed Customs service. I think that this has his seat, I fought three elections opposing certainly got to be the objective of this. coming out of the Common Purse Agree- Now there are those who I have heard ex- ment. I was one of those who had to face press the opinion that, in fact, we do not this very strongly especially at the last want to convey the powers to the Treasury Elec:ion and I stood for the status quo that are contained in this Bill. The powers very firmly at that time. But I have been that have existed for all these years have put, at a very late stage, on this Commit- been dealt with by people completely tee on the Common Purse and a lot of outside the control of this Government, an the spade work had been done. This is the entirely different Government. Surely it is odd thing. It seems to me that we are better that we have somebody, as the hon. going to get another Committee to have a member himself has said, that this is a look at it, having had a Committee work situation where somebody else is doing the on it for a very long time, and, in my view, job. We are now bringing it at least within gaining the very best possible Agreement the competence of somebody within the at this stage. Now the hon. member for Government and it is actually factual what Middle, Mr. Watterson, has stated that he he said. It is no use going to your mam- does not want these Customs officials, ber of the House of Keys if you get into some of whom may be recruited from exist- difficulties with the Customs, they have ing establishment, with these powers. I do power that goes over and beyond, and not agree with that at all. We have a situa- rightly so, it is such an important job, but tion in the world today where there are a at least we will be doing it within the terrific amount of transactions with such Island. I am not one of those who say, items as drugs throughout the world. We we are going to get rid of value added tax have one of the greatest afflictions on overnight, because, Mr. Acting-Speaker, if society in the day and age in which we live that happens we have got to find that and one which requires special powers to money from some other source. We have deal with that, somebody who can go in got to finance all the things that are hap- whatever the circumstances and find out pening in this Island, but I would envisage whether that container has drugs in it and, that, in fact, the correct step is to control to me, I am prepared to sacrifice a lot of our own affairs and, in my view, this Bill freedom in order to protect our young does just that. Subsequently, if we find society from such events. So, therefore, in when that situation is on the move we can my view, Mr. Acting-Speaker, it is come to look at services then I think that absolutely necessary for Customs officials could very well be something which cannot to have such power. As far as the officials be smuggled out of the Isle of Man which are concerned themselves, the hon. mem- would mean no great difficulty to anybody ber has indicated that we might train local but it would give an edge to the tourist people very quickly. I am hoping that that industry in the Isle of Man and I think that

Customs and Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Deferred for One Week. K40 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 that then could be the next step, given ade- gratulate the Finance Board on having got quate notice. It has got, as the hon. mem- an Agreement containing that provision, ber quite rightly said, to be done by negoti- which I would take it is one they would ation but I believe that we found, those of intend to bear in mind seriously in the not us who did go on the one-day delegation too distant future. This is only a point, it to London, that the Customs people were is the Bill itself that we are really consider- willing to give us all the help they could. ing at the moment. This only deals with As far as the inspection is concerned, this the procedure to be adopted. Regarding is not something new. The hon. member, the Bill itself, I do not like clause 1, where the Chairman of the Police Board will know it says ". . . by order transfer to the that we, in fact, get the same sort of help Finance Board, or to any officer of that in inspection from Her Majesty's Inspector Board . . ." Why should powers be trans- of Constabulary in London, a very, very ferred to an officer of the Board? The useful service if somebody is coming from officer of the Board only represents the without and looking at the establishment Board. Surely it is enough that they should in the Isle of Man and be able to give this be transferred to the Finance Board. The guidance. At this moment, we have some- Finance Board can authorise the Treasurer body from Her Majesty's Inspectors of Fire to do certain things, whatever they may Services on the Island looking at the wish them to do, but it is the Finance adequacy or inadequacy, as the case may Board who should have the power and be be, of the fire service in the Island, and answerable to this House and to Tynwald. this is not something new and that is, in On page 2 the same thing, in clause 1(2), my view, all that is contained within this, line 5 where it says ". . . such order exer- Mr. Acting-Speaker. I believe that we would cise such other powers as he may con- do very well if we were to adopt this today sider necessary . . .". That again, I would as a step towards greater independence suggest, is far too wide, just what he on behalf of the Island. I am not one of might consider necessary. I know it has those who are way out saying we are going to be submitted for approval to Tynwald to do away with value added tax tomorrow but, nevertheless, those words are very and it is going to be 10 per cent. instead of wide ranging in clause 2 of the Bill. If you five per cent. It may be that sometime this look at clause 2(1) it says "The Attorney- will come but we have got to do one step General shall, as soon as possible after at a time and I believe that this is the best the beginning of April 1980, and from time possible Agreement that we could have to time thereafter as he may consider had at this time. I support the Bill. desirable, cause to be published . . ." cer- Mr. Christian: Mr. Acting-Speaker, there tain Acts which are relative to this matter, are various aspects about this matter which and also in clause 2(2): "The Attorney- I think, first of all, I am concerned about. General may cause to be included in any I missed the last sitting of Tynwald, as reprint prepared pursuant to this section you may know. I think, on the whole, it is such notes for the assistance of users of something to be supported because the the reprint as he may consider paragraph I like in particular is paragraph desirable . . ." I think it would be a very 22. It says "This agreement is subject to good thing if the Attorney-General could review or, on the giving of six months' produce that reprint together with the notes notice by either Government, to termina- for our guidance in the first place, because tion." I think that would be quite helpful really. You see, the Agreement in itself is very A member: Hear, hear. complicated and, in many ways, some Mr. Christian: I will put up with an awful parts are vaguely worded, perhaps inten- lot to get that enacted and I would con- tionally so, but although I think it might

Customs and Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Deferred for One Week. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K41 have some defects in it, I can see the Bill has been introduced hastily, and it is urgency of getting the matter dealt with worthwhile, I think, to go back into the and I think, as I say, in view of the fact history of why the Common Purse Agree- thst we have at the end of the day the me7t, it was suggested, should be right, not with anybody else's approval, changed. It started, I think, with P.A. but the right in Tynwald itself, if it wishes Management Consultant Limited's very to — This Agreement is subject to re- extensive and extended paper on the view or, on the giving of six months' notice existing arrangement over the collection of by either Government, to termination" and indirect taxation and most of us, when we on the strength of that alone I would sup- were candidates at the last General Elec- port it. tion, made it the point of explaining our views vis-a-vis the Common Purse and, to Mr. Swales: Very briefly, Mr. Acting- that degree, I think all of us can say we Speaker, and rather along the same lines have a mandate to proceed as no doubt as my colleague here, firstly, going back most of us think we have rightly pro- to July last in Tynwald, we agreed three ceeded. When, in January 1977, a Select basic things. We agreed to change the Committee was set up to examine the expression "Common Purse Agreement" to report and benefit to the Island in remain- read something a little different - ing party to all or part of it, that Commit- 'Customs and Excise Agreement". We tee, I think quite rightly, asked each mem- secondly agreed to establish an Isle of ber to submit evidence. Now I felt it so Man Customs and Excise department and important myself that I submitted evidence, to transfer the services from the United 11 pages of it, and, I am happy to say, Kingdom Commissioners to this service and I claim no credit for this, some of that we were to create and, thirdly, we the ideas have been, or are being, con- agreed that our Chairman of Finance Board sidered for implementation. First, of course, should execute this Agreement on our was the control of the staff of Customs behalf. We did all these three things and and Excise, which is all that this Bill pro- we were given at that time certain main poses to do at this juncture. What I would heads of account, if you like, and I do not like to know is whether the hon. member think we can complain that, in fact, that for Middle at that time, given the oppor- has all been done. We agreed this our- tunity to put forward his views to the Com- selves. The only query I have is that when mittee, did so, and what, in fact, were I received the details of the Agreement, those views and, if so, does he now pro- just like every other member a week ago, pose some alternative procedure, because I certainly had queries myself on five of the so far I am not convinced that there is clauses and I am sure that an explanation even a foundation of an alternative pro- to these queries in my mind would be cedure which would warrant this Bill going sufficient for my purpose. As my hon. col- to a Committee. league has stated, this Agreement can be looked at in six months' time. The point I Mr. Cringle: Mr. Acting-Speaker, when am coming to is, in what way can the one is at work one tends to think that one queries that I have in my mind, and other is as capable, if not more capable, of members may have in their minds, how can they be explained to us? When can carrying out any particular task than the person who is alongside them and, quite this be done, and who can this be done rightly, I would suggest that that is some- by? This really is the point that I feel is pertinent to the House. thing which a person should be proud of. Similarly, I consider that the Isle of Man Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I do Government is equally as capable of run- not think it can be said that this particular ning its own affairs as anybody else. Now,

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I am going to support this measure whole- added tax went up to 15 per cent. I think heartedly this afternoon, basically for the there might have been an outside chance reasons which have already been given, of Tynwald Court rejecting it, but at that so I will not bore the House by going on too time we did not have any opportunity. long, but primarily, if for no other reason Now we have it. We go on to the point than reading paragraph 1 of the explana- about having another Committee looking tory memorandum, and if I can just take at it. I do not care, Mr. Acting-Speaker, you through paragraph 1 of the explana- whether we have a dozen Committees tory memorandum, and take out of it all the looking at it, as long as we vote for this wishy washiness, it reads as follows: "The Bill, to give us the power to do something object of this Bill is to empower the Gov- about the Customs and Excise in the ernor in Council, by Order ... to transfer to future. You can have Committees from authorities in the Isle of Man functions . . . here until doomsday, I do not mind—as which are at present vested in the Commis- long as I am not on them, by the way—but sioners of Customs and Excise and certain the situation is, if the mover of the Bill will other authorities in the United Kingdom." I give me that assurance that that is what happen to believe we can do it better our- he is saying in this document in front of selves. I fully support the Bill. us today, the same as was outlined in the first document that came to us. Contrary Mr. Delaney: Mr. Acting-Speaker, it is to what the hon. member for Middle says, very interesting that when we have such I have done my homework and I am sure an important item in front of us, although every other member did on this particular individual members, we suddenly come draft and on the draft it was pointed out together. The hon. member for Ramsey, there in paragraph (b) of item 7 that there are two items down on my little brief "Procedure be agreed under which any here for this debate this afternoon and proposal by the Isle of Man to depart from they are exactly as he said — section 22. the rate of duty or tax charged in the All I will be asking of the hon. mover of United Kingdom, except in the cases this Bill is to make clear, and on Hansard, described in the above, would be subject that this does give us this six months' to three months' notice and agreement by option. Because if you are going to make both Governments." That was the part in rabbit pie you have got to catch your this outlined draft I was interested in and rabbit — (laughter) — and this docu- the first thing when I got this, I was look- ment here is the snare to get that rabbit ing to make sure that was included. And and before I can ever get anything done they have gone one better. They have not about value added tax or any of the ser- got by agreement by both Governments, vices which have been mentioned by the they have got by notice of any one of the hon. member for Glenfaba, I have got to two parties, so that alone is a 100 per cent. have some method of doing it. But I have improvement. It is not by agreement, it is it here. The document here is quite clear by notice, so we have got that, and we on that and I have the opportunity, for the have got that up our sleeves, we have got first time, I believe, as a back bench mem- something to work with. There is one other ber, to be able to stand up in Tynwald part, and I agree with the hon. member for with a resolution saying, I suggest we Ramsey again. I would be hoping, I do give six months' notice to pull out. If Mrs. not know if the hon. member is going to Thatcher or anybody else ever tries to put move amendments when we come to the up value added tax again, that is what I clauses stage, about the Treasurer being am looking for. I am only sorry that haste the person to deal, or a civil servant on has been mentioned. I am only sorry this our behalf, but as there are Commissoners was not here last year because when value in operation in Britain, Customs Commis-

Customs and Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Deferred for One Week. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K43 sioners, I would suggest that in the Isle of I think, of two people who voted against Man we might very well have a similar the resolution in Tynwald on the accept- body, the same as we have for tax pur- ance of the report of the Select Committee. poses, a Commission that would carry out I did that, not because I disagree with the duties of the Commissioners in Britain, what they propose, but because I thought but instead of being persons unknown and it was misleading and I think it is very unknown faces, they would be people that important at this stage for us not to mis- the community could relate to for prob- lead ourselves and certainly, and most im- lems involved with value added tax and portant of all, not to mislead people out- all its inherent problems. Why not have a side this hon. House because they are, to Commission? We have Commissions for some extent, misled into thinking that at many other things in the Isle of Man. Let the stroke of a pen we suddenly have a us get away from the British system which freedom that we did not have before and I we have been trying to do and use things think this is possibly what is irritating a lot that benefit us and a Commission, I believe, of members here at this moment, that, in a Commission of Customs, would be the fact, some were looking for a complete answer to the problems that come up with separation, for the courage to do that anything to do with tax, value added tax separation, and that this was introduced and all the other things. We have someone and would mislead the public into thinking to whom we can say, look at that, that is a that we had cheated. But I think we must problem. They could meet regularly, they recognise that this Agreement is a further could meet once or twice a year, or when step along the relationship between the they were called upon to look at the prob- Isle of Man Government and the United lems that value added tax and the other Kingdom Government which has been pro- things have brought with them. Even for gressing over the last few years and which the ordinary shopkeeper, the amount of is now accelerating and the very impor- work involved to just organise his books tance of this, historically, is a major event has been imposed on him by Government even if, in policy, it may not immediately be. and all he has become, really, is a tax col- It does mean that the United Kingdom Gov- lector for Government. So let us help him ernment is recognising the responsibility by having somebody he can go to with a of this Government to manage its affairs problem directly on the Island, not a Cus- and I say that because in the Isle of Man toms officer, but an administration depart- Postal Authority, in the merchant shipping ment. It is not creating another upsurge legislation, in the introduction of a Manx of Government administration, we are al- Shipping Register and our ability to control ready here, and I am sure that we can do within our territorial waters, the merchant that. I will not be going against a Corn- shippng control exercised previously by the mittee because there are two or three United Kingdom Government is based on points I would like to have cleared myself. complete reciprocity of standards and I would certainly support it. I had intended legislation and the way in which this to come here this afternoon and say, yes, Agreement has been produced at this time Mr. Chairman of the Finance Board, I is a recognition that we would organise accept this, but there are one or two points our Customs service and our rates of I would like clearing and if other members duties, at the moment, exactly the same feel they want a Committee on it, so be it. as they are in the United Kingdom, so, in Have a Committee on it and give them the fact, this Agreement is basically along the opportunity to understand as much as I same lines as Agreements in other fields, do, which is that under section 22 we but built into this Agreement is, of course, have got the option to pull out. the opportunity for change. In the United Dr. Mann: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I was one, Kingdom Customs and Excise, in the next

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10 years they are aiming at a complete any advantage for the ordinary people. So streamlining of their operation, with a re- we must see a long term advantage and duction of labour intensity and a marked the only long term advantage must be either rise in streamlining all their procedures in abrogation or some agreement to disagree. equalising all the inter-European Economic The chances of an agreement to disagree Community tariff barriers and in general are really very remote indeed. If we go reducing the amount of actual operations back to the United Kingdom and say we in raising revenue. It may be that they are going to change rates, almost immedi- saw we were going in the opposite direc- ately they will disagree and so we are back tion and, in fact, we may be aiming, and I to the point of whether we abrogate or we hope we probably are aiming, to alter the do not abrogate and on what basis. It is rates eventually in some services. Directly true that written into the Agreement we you start altering the rates, this stream- could abrogate and if we abrogated we lining breaks down so what we are heading would continue collecting our value added for actually at this moment, probably, is tax and our customs duties, such as they an increase in labour intensity and a are, here, and that represents a tiny pro- decrease in streamlining, but this is for our portion of the total revenue gained from own immediate aims and it could well be the so called Common Purse Agreement as that the Customs and Excise in the United it stands at the moment, shortly to be re- Kingdom were very glad to see the back named. This is where I had reason to vote of this particular problem and us taking it against because under those circum- over. So what is immediately the present stances I cannot see how one could abro- situation? Who has derived any advantage gate because the cost would be enormous up to now or who will under this Agree- and unless we either had the courage or ment? Well, the first disadvantage, not an the ability to replace that lost revenue, the advantage, is the fact that we have got to cost of 'abrogation would be beyond our pay for 30 people. We may, under the means. That does not mean that I will vote previous Agreement, have paid for them against this. I will vote for it because it is indirectly, but we are now going to pay an assumption of responsibility on this for them directly and who is going to Government which we should willingly gain the advantage of that extra expen- accept and, I hope, be proud of and I hope diture? At this moment no one individual that in spite of the apparent disadvantages, person in the community could probably the wisdom of the Finance Board will show claim to have had their quality of life in- some way through the future which will creased at all. The only immediate advan- give us some long term advantage without tage is to the finance sector which will a crippling cost that we cannot support. have the advantage of not having its affairs exposed to the computer in Southend and Mr. CalEn: Mr. Acting-Speaker, the first the psychological confidence that we are thing I want to say is that I fully support more independently minded and that we the objects of this Bill and I would like to will look after their interests on the Island congratulate the Chairman and the mem- bers of the Finance Board for the efficient as distinct from in the United Kingdom. The way in which they have carried out the immediate cost to the average person negotiations. does not seem worth it. To the future, is it going to be worth it? I think this is the Mr. Kermeen: It was not the Finance question we should now be asking our- Board, although I would like to take the selves. Immediately, apart from the psycho- credit. logical benefits, the benefits of maturity and responsibility, we have no distinct Mr. Catlin: The Common Purse Commit- financial advantage, nor are we creating tee, I beg your pardon. I would like to

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congratulate them on the efficient way in Mr. Lowey: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I rise which they have carried out these negotia- and I, too, want to make clear at the out- tions. I, like the hon. member for Glenfaba, set that this particular Bill is the result of made no commitment whatsoever at the the Common Purse Committee, the com- last Election that I would support any move position of which is Mr. Radcliffe, who is to break away from the Common Purse the Chairman, Sir John Bolton, Mr. and I stand by that today. Sometimes ques- Kerruish, Mr. Irving and Mr. Anderson, so tions are asked when the answers are we know who we are talking about. In known, but in this instance I feel that the July they presented us with the second answer is one that many people outside interim report which we accepted. This might be glad to have, because there is Bill, if you like, is the offshoot of that some misunderstanding, there is some acceptance by Tynwald Court. Now I doubt as to what will happen when this go along with the vast majority of what has Bill becomes law, and that is if a firm, been said in this House this afternoon for instance, in the Isle of Man buys manu- regarding the need and, if you like, the factured goods from the mainland, they desirability of being in control of our own pay value added tax to the supplier and affairs and this Bill, no doubt at all, will then the difference between the input and give us another degree of autonomy and the output is filled in under the terms and control, as is right and proper. Having said the balance is paid direct to Southend-on- that, I really do feel that it is right and Sea at the present time. I would like to proper to express the fears I have had in ask the hon. mover of the Bill if he would reading the Agreement because there is explain in some detail how this would work no doubt about it, when we pass the Bill in future and I am sure, as I said, people we are, in fact, giving the all clear" to would appreciate that. I have no wish to this Agreement. It is a complex Agreement, answer the questions which I am sure the it has been said before, and I am a simple mover will be quite capable of answering, country lad at heart and do not pretend to but I was rather surprised to hear criticism know all the intricacies and implications with regard to the staffing of this new that this document can and no doubt will department. It must be fairly obvious to be interpreted as. So I feel, and this was anyone, I think, that if you are going to set echoed, in effect, by the hon. member for up a completely new establishment, you Ramsey, Mr. Swales, when he said, how cannot bring strange people in and install do we get an intelligent interpretation of them without any prior experience, and I this Agreement, because it is worrying him would say that as far as the Civil Service too. I feel that in the Bill, you see, we are Commission is concerned, we have worked not going to be able to discuss the Agree- very closely, up to the present time, with ment in detail so, therefore, I feel it is the Common Purse Committee, the Fin- encumbent upon me to raise one or two ance Board and there have been various — and I have underlined that — I could discussions with representatives from the have gone through it almost line by line, Customs and Excise from London. It is but that, I think, is not the object of the true to say that some of the senior posts exercise. What I want to draw attention to will have to be filled from the mainland is the fact that we would appear in the and this will be done to get this off to the Agreement to be handing over a lot of start that everybody would like to see, but authority from politicians to officials and as far as the greater proportion of those this really was highlighted and underlined that will be recruited, they will be recruited by the other hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. from people who are Manx or at least Christian, when he said, why should we in resident in the Isle of Man at the present the Bill confer to any officer of the Fin- time. ance Board, but the Agreement says why

Customs and Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Deferred for One Week. K46 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 we should, because it is so explicit. You impartially, fairly and firmly. That is what see, in item 9 of the Agreement it says we are saying. I look at that and it seems "Except in so far as is necessary to permit to me that we are going the reverse way value added tax on the Island to be ad- about doing it. I may be totally wrong, but ministered without the use of the United these are the sort of things which exercise Kingdom's central computers and except my mind. The Agreement is complex. I for other variations in practice and pro- wonder if it is possible for members to cedure which may be agreed from time to discuss this in a rational way, perhaps, time by exchange of letters between the with the Attorney-General? I have dis- Commissioners and the Treasurer . . .". cussed certain points with him but I feel as So it is the Commissioners and the a Government, as a body, we should be Treasurer. Then if you turn over the page able on this sort of thing, not on every to item 11, it continues along these lines - Agreement, please, I am not asking for all "The Governments recognise the separate Agreements to be subject to this rigorous agreement, effected by an exchange of appraisal, but this is a very, very impor- letters between the Commissioners and tant document. It can have great reper- the Treasurer, on mutual assistance on all cussions now and in the future, so I feel aspects of the management of the Customs on this occasion, somewhere in the and Excise revenues, the associated con- machinery of Government, there should be trol functions and certain agency functions. found a way whereby members can be with special reference to the prevention of taken through something as important as fraud and the detection of offences." We this. Even at this late stage, I suggest that all agree with that, no doubt, but once should be possible. I then come to the again we are being committed as a Gov- point of the hon. member, Dr. Mann, who ernment, if you like, on an exchange of says that we should not be led to believe letters. (Interruption.) Well, the Chairman certain things will happen when we are of the Finance Board and the Chairman of not; in other words, we are not flattering this Committee say not and I am delighted to deceive. I believe there is a great danger to hear it because I am sure he will be at present by the way this is being re- able to reply. But it would appear to me ported particularly, that people's expecta- that this is what we are doing and with tions are being heightened only to be, next accepting the Agreement in total, we will, March, when we come into this position ... if you like, have the finger pointed at us People will say, well, what is the difference, in the future and they will say, but you why can we not do this, why can we agreed to that particular phase, that par- not do that? And I feel we ought to dampen ticular action. So I raise those and also down expectations because all the revenue item 14(f) and this really raises one of that is being earned at the moment is the things in a whole series of little clauses being spent at the moment, make no mis- where it says "special provisions may be take about that. So rather than reducing made to prevent tax avoidance on supplies taxation — and remember we are talking from one territory to the other if experience here of reducing value added tax on the shows that this is desirable." That, to me, service industry, which is a logical one to as a layman, would appear that we are me and as a member of the Tourist Board saying, in effect, let it rip, see what hap- I know the sense and validity of the argu- pens, and if there is anything untoward ment — but we must be quite clear in our happening then we will act to prevent it. minds that we will not on the stroke of Instead of which it would appear . . . midnight on 31st March be able to do I accept exactly what the hon. member for wonders overnight. This is the machinery Glenfaba said, what we need is a strong whereby we can put in our shop window Customs and Excise authority that will act the advantages of the Isle of Man, and to

Customs and Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Deferred for One Week. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K47 that end I think it is extremely valuable is that this is going to be a great advan- and important. The only point I would like tage to us as far as the question of our to answer is from my colleague and friend own value added tax is concerned. I hope from Middle, Mr. Watterson, when he said that the Finance Board, or whoever will that these Customs men have great powers. be looking at this, will immediately insti- They have very, very great powers, and tute a situation where we will be able to historically they have always had those assess the collection of value added tax powers, but it would be totally wrong to from the various parts of our community, pretend that other officers in Government our industry, or wherever. My colleague today do not exercise equally draconian mentioned that this would be a great ad- powers. For example, if any hon. member vantage to our visiting industry. I do not cares to look at the powers that the want to separate industries, probably it Weights and Measures inspectorate exer- would, but I think it would be a great cise in the Isle of Man — that happens advantage to the Isle of Man if this parti- to be under the Consumer Council. They cular tax was segregated into areas where are really quite frightening. Do not look we could decide for ourselves where we too closely because I am sure lots of you could give the better support and the will not sleep in your beds! (Laughter.) better relief to our industries or sections But it is true, they do have quite draconian of the community as these results are powers, but it is not those powers that are given to us. really the point at issue, it is how they are exercised. That brings us back squarely Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I voted to the point that was rightly made by Mr. against this in Tynwald, and I am still Anderson, the hon. member for Glenfaba, very concerned about it. I feel when you when he said, what sort of service do we are taking over a company you are given want? He hit the nail smack on the head a balance sheet to use and you are told when he said, we want a first-class ser- what things go on the plus side and what vice. That is what I am aiming for. I am go on the minus, and I do not think we sure that is what the Chairman of the have had the advantages or disadvantages Finance Board and the Chairman of this explained to us sufficiently. Not having Committee is aiming for, but I repeat what been on the Common Purse Committee, I said when I rose, I support the Bill and I feel the point that the hon. member for I do have one or two serious reservations Garff brought out is important. The regarding the Agreement. European Economic Community is gradually drawing us closer together, Mr. Quirk : Mr. Acting-Speaker, very and the Customs and Excise are gradually briefly, I just rise to say that in this parti- being streamlined and integrated, and do cular Bill I hope the decision that this we want to be part of that integration? I Court makes will be clear and concise am not at all sure. I had imagined that because I think that if there is any obscu- we were going to be absolutely free, and rity about this decision at all we are not I find we are merely going to be a small going to get the benefits out of this Bill satellite of the United Kingdom Customs. that it would seem. I am talking about the Quite frankly, I think we should be able financial benefits now. Unless these people to "do our own thing" the way the are assured, and there is a suspicion, Channel Islands do. And I still say, why can most times, that there is a relationship or we not? The Channel Islands do it, why a link between Great Britain and the Isle cannot we? A lot of countries including of Man, and unless this decision is made Islands, the Caribbean Islands, the Solomon clear cut and concise you are not going Islands and others have had their indepen- to get the benefits that you would expect. dence since the war, and I am quite sure The only other suggestion I have to make that they are not connected with the United

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Kingdom computer. They are doing their Mr. P. Radcliffe: Thank you, Mr. Acting- own thing. I shall listen with very great in- Speaker. I appreciate very much the inte- terest to what the mover of this Bill says rest that has been shown in this Bill both because that rabbit that Mr. Delaney men- from those who support it, whom I thank tioned still seems to me to be running very much for their support, and possibly pretty freely around this hon. Court. I would not classify it as opposition, the points made by the hon. member for Mr. Delaney: On a point of order, I am Middle, who, to give him credit, warned talking about a Manx rabbit. (Laughter.) me in advance that he was going to oppose it and said why he was opposing Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Mr. Acting-Speaker, it. I too welcome this Bill. I must confess when I first read it and tried to under- Mr. Watterson: I am not opposing it. stand it in the rather limited time at our disposal, it is a complex measure, it is Mr. P. Radcliffe: Well, in making the a very important measure. I suppose you points you are making in reference to could say we have waited a few hundred what we are trying to do. Several mem- years for this. I think we should handle it bers have said today that on their political very carefully. I am sure hon. members platform at the last Election they did not will agree that quite a number of meas- in any way put forward the case that ures come before this House and we they were going to support the abolition study them as best we can and we seek of what was then called the Common such advice as we can. If we are not Purse. I, for years, have said that I was happy about them we may attempt to strongly opposed to the abolition of the delay them until we can get further advice, Common Purse, but let us be honest about and finally, possibly with an odd misgiving, it, we have the situation that for many, we vote for them and accept them and they many years we have had full control of become the law of the land. I had thought our direct taxation, and it was brought that possibly this might merit being sent home very strongly to us this last year to a Committee, but I take the hon. when, because of a pending Election in Chairman's point, we are working to a the United Kingdom, we had to wait for time-table. I do not suggest that time- a budget. We had no idea how we were table is necessarily sacred. I cannot see going to be affected about the indirect that the world would stop if we were not taxation, and we had to "guestimate" "all systems go" by 31st March next year. really what we were going to budget as a But, however, I am all for some sort of return from our indirect taxation. Then regularity, if you like, punctuality, and if we found ourselves in the situation that we can keep to this deadline, so much the when the United Kingdom did say what better. I, therefore, find that I warmly sup- they were going to do, and they imme- port the suggestion, or the inference, put diately upped their indirect taxation from forward by the hon. member for Rushen, 8 per cent. and 12 per cent. to a stan- Mr. Lowey, that it might be useful if at dard 15 per cent., that it could affect many some convenient time we did have the of our squations in the Isle of Man, and Attorney-General present and we could the one that was drawn to our attention then perhaps go through some of these very strongly at that time was services. points with him and get an answer, and Although members today have said there we might then be in a better position to is too much haste, as has been said by come to a decision and vote. some members about the situation, I hon- estly was of the impression a few months The Acting-Speaker: I call on the hon. ago that if the Common Purse Committee member to reply. did not get on with the job everybody

Customs and Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Deferred for One Week. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K49 would be beginning to wonder if we had future will be. Dealing with the points been asleep because we have been virtu- made, as I say, the main point appears to ally two years trying to get to this stage. be, as I see it, the powers of the Customs I can assure you that not only did the officers. The powers of the Customs Common Purse Committee work extremely officers in the future will be no different hard, but a tremendous amount of credit from the powers of the Customs officers must go to our staff in the Treasury and in the past. I would say that as far as the the legal department who have spent powers of the Customs officers in the Isle many, many hours . . . And not only of Man are concerned, they are slightly themselves, but I must emphasise this, the different from what they are in the United hon. Mr. Speaker said in Tynwald when Kingdom. I wonder whether the hon. we were discussing the draft report, he member for Middle has looked at this, and wanted us, or wanted me, on behalf of I am sure he has, I know he is a member the Committee to give an assurance that, who always does his homework. I would although we had expert advice, shall I say, like to draw your attention to this because within the Isle of Man, before we would these are very important factors on which progress too far with this draft we would I want the support of the members, and have the advice from our constitutional I have no desire to bamboozle you or per- adviser, Mr. Maurice Bathurst, on what he suade you to accept something that is thought of the drafting. Mr. Maurice going to be detrimental to the Isle of Man. Bathurst was consulted and he pointed out Concerning the powers of the Customs and to us ways and means whereby this draft Excise Officers, it is agreed that in the that we had could be improved, and basic- United Kingdom, officers of Customs have ally some members have said that the wider powers than police officers by virtue draft we now have is not that draft that of Section 116 of the Customs and Excise we saw previously, it has been altered and Management Act 1979, as that Act has strengthened on the advice of our constit- effect in the United Kingdom. This is effec- utional adviser, Mr. Maurcie Bathurst. I tive by writs of assistance which empower can assure you that as far as we as a certain officers to exercise powers of Committee are concerned, we went search without the writ of a justice of the through this with a fine tooth comb and peace. However, writs of assistance do watched very carefully how we were com- not, and so far as I understand, never mitting ourselves, bearing in mind and have applied in the Isle of Man. In the Isle never forgetting the fact that when we of Man premises can only be searched in have been to the Home Office on several pursuance of a writ issued by a justice of occasions negotiating, points have been the peace — see section 161 of the Cus- made to us, you have got a Common Purse toms and Excise Management Act 1979. Agreement, you have also got a Conti- Customs officers have also powers to nental Shelf Agreement, and if you are search vehicles or vessels in certain in- going to alter the Common Purse Agree- stances. This power is no wider than the ment there is the possibility that we will power to stop and search vehicles under look at the Continental Shelf Agreement. section 12 of the Game Act of 1882 in Within this Agreement, now, Mr. Maurice respect of the game, and in relation to wild Bathurst has taken very good care with birds, under section 60 of the Wild Birds his advice to us that we will not be in Protection Act, as amended by the Wild the future finding ourselves tied by say- Birds Protection Act of 1975. Powers of ing, this is one Agreement but this Agree- search of persons is given under section ment is tied with another Agreement and 164 of the Customs and Excise Manage- you cannot change one without consider- ment Act of 1979 in relation to persons ing the other. This is a separate Agree- entering or leaving the Island, or persons ment specifically spelt out as to what the who are within the dock area of a port

Customs and Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Deferred for one-week. K50 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 or the area of a Customs and Excise air- Commission, Mr. Irving, and the Govern- port. However, these powers are neces- ment Secretary. So there we have a com- sary to prevent smuggling. The powers of mittee who will be interviewing these Customs officers and the provisions refer- people who will be satisfied of the quali- red to above are less wide than those in fications we will be getting from the staff the United Kingdom as mentioned above who will be appointed. As I have said, as since we do not have writs of assistance and from the time we take over, all re- in the Isle of Man. So, although we want cruitment thereafter will be the responsi- the Customs officers to have as much bility of the Isle of Man Civil Service Com- power as possible to carry out efficiently mission. I think one other point the hon. their duties, they do not have the same member did make was in reference to the power to search in the Isle of Man as obligations of the Isle of Man in informa- they have in the United Kingdom. Another tion. If you will read paragraph 16 of the point that was made by the hon. member Agreement, it says, "The Governments was in reference to recruitment. Here agree to introduce arrangements, includ- again, we have always said that as far as ing any necessary legislation, for the free possible we want to recruit officials to any exchange of information between the Com- Government sector in the Isle of Man. The missioners and the Isle of Man Customs Civil Service Commission have been and Excise service for ensuring the proper brought into consultation with the Finance control and administration of the equal Board on this matter and I would like to duties and the enforcement of prohibitions just draw it to your attention so that you and restrictions on importation and expor- are all perfectly clear what the situation tation, but that the information so obtained is. In the coming months legislation is to shall, except as may be required by Com- be introduced which will provide for the munity obligations, or by any other interna- transfer of existing United Kingdom tional obligations, which are binding on the Customs and Excise functions in the Isle Isle of Man, be used for that and no of Man to the Government of the Isle of other purpose." There again, it is spelt Man on 1st April 1980. This is from the out in as plain English as possible what Customs and Excise people in the United we are insisting shall be done. To me, Kingdom. In order to meet this change in from the very day that this Agreement the administration of the revenue of the has been signed, from the very day we Isle of Man, it has been agreed that the pass this Bill and it becomes lawful that main staffing requirement from the 1st we have control in the Isle of Man of our April 1980, from executive level to prin- own Customs officers we, on the Finance cipal level, will be provided by this depart- Board, can assure you that anything, any ment — that is, Customs and Excise in suggestion or change whatsoever, no the United Kingdom — in consultation matter how small or how big it will be, with the Isle of Man Civil Service Com- will be drawn to our Board's attention and mission. Thereafter the Commission will be will be drawn to your attention, and we responsible for recruitment. So at the pre- will keep you very fully informed of the sent moment they are advertising now situation as we see it. But we cannot do widely for people interested in being ap- anything in any respect whatsoever of get- pointed to the Customs service in the Isle ting the control that we have said for of Man, such appointments to take place years we want to get until we do have our between now and the 1st April 1980. On own Customs officers, and this is the main the committee interviewing that panel the point of the Bill. Should we say, let the Chairman will be the Chairman of the Civil control remain as it has been with the Service Commission, there will be two United Kingdom officers or are we say- Customs and Excise Officers from London, ing, let us get the first step on the ladder the other members of the Civil Service to get greater control within our own

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Island to do what we want to do, not what what we are trying to do in the Bill. The the United Kingdom are trying to say we hon. member for Garff, Dr. Mann, did say have to do? As I have already said, the that possibly we had misled people in say- main point of the qualification and the ing that when we got this Bill through and drafting of our whole report is the fact I our draft Agreement signed they thought emphasised very strongly that we seek and there would be radical changes in the Isle sought the finest advice we could get, and of Man. Let us be frank about it. At the in seeking Mr. Maurice Bathurst's advice present moment, of our £40 million of he did strengthen our Agreement on seve- revenue coming into the Exchequer, ap- ral occasions for which we are greatly in- proximately 50 per cent. comes from both debted. Mr. Anderson, I thank him for his direct taxation and indirect taxation. At the support as a member of the Committee. present moment they are reasonably even. He said, naturally, that as far as we are At the last Budget time they were, I would concerned, this is now going to be not a say, almost exactly even. Then, because Common Purse Agreement but a Customs of a change in indirect taxation and in- and Excise Agreement, and this is one of creased revenue, again, indirect revenue the points that may be in many people's went up slightly above direct. Our aim has minds a minor matter, but nevertheless, it always been to try to encourage a greater is a matter that has been emphasised very amount of money from our direct taxation. strongly by certain sections of the com- As I have emphasised before, we have no munity that we do want to be perfectly idea whatsoever of increasing the rate of clear that we are having more control and taxation, but to increase expansion in the we are not governed by United Kingdom industries in the Isle of Man and in com- law in anything with reference to finance. merce in the Isle of Man in general so that The hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. Chris- we will possibly be able to immediately, tian, referred to officers of the Board. if we get an increase in direct taxation, Constitutionally on many occasions it has take some steps to say that if we feel 15 been said that when members of the Manx per cent on services within the Isle of Government go to London we talk and Man is unwarranted, something shall be have our discussions at civil service level, done about it. Members have said, oh, you we never talk as member to member or may say that, but when you get to London minister to minister. These Agreements they will say, here they are now, these and many other Agreements that are drawn people want to start already to change up between Government and Government, their indirect taxation which is going to this Agreement specifically was drawn up be contrary to what we want. Why was the by officials of the Customs and Excise in Common Purse Agreement signed in the the United Kingdom who are civil servants, first place? It was to stop smuggling. How and we thought it appropriate that under can anybody, basically, put a very strong those circumstances we should have the logical argument up as to whether many head of our Finance department, who is a services can be smuggled? This is one of civil servant, doing the Agreement on our the points we have put. The hon. member behalf. There is no question about it, I am for Ramsey, Mr. Swales, did ask, would it certain, as every hon. member of this be possible to get a breakdown of what Court is, of the fact that nothing will be comes in indirect taxation from services done by the Treasurer of the Isle of Man and from other sectors of value added tax. under the regulations and rules that they This, basically, we can give him already have at the present moment without full because we considered this very important consultation with the Finance Board. I can situation when we were talking about assure you that as far as we are concerned whether or not we should press for im- we will see that will be operative. The mediately a change in the value added tax majority of members, I am sure, appreciate on services, and it is a very complicated

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issue. But it is not an issue that we were said the main point of the Agreement that given a blunt "No" to from the United King- he saw was clause 22 which says, "This dom Customs people. We are, or have in Agreement is subject to review or, on the our negotiations been able to vary our giving of six months' notice by either Gov- hydrocarbon oil taxation, that has been ernment, to termination." accepted, and I am certain that with good- will on both parts . . . I feel genuinely Mr. Delaney: It is in Hansard now. Thank that we have that goodwill of the United you very much. Kingdom Government at the present moment to do this, and I feel certain that The Acting-Speaker: The motion before there are certain aspects of this Agree- the House is that the Customs and Excise ment that we can, and we intend as the (Transfer of Functions) Bill 1980 be now Common Purse Committee not just to sit read a second time. Those in favour please back now and say we have got the Agree- say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Bill ment signed, that is it, we intend to in- read a second time. I have notice of a vestigate it. Only next week we, as the motion and call upon the hon. member for Finance Board, are taking our Treasurer Middle, Mr. Watterson. and our Income Tax Assessor with us and we are going to Jersey to look at the situ- Mr. Watterson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, as I ation and how they implemented it be- spoke at some length earlier on I wi'l keep cause, as has been said here this after- it brief this time. I will repeat one point. I noon, what has been done in Jersey, can am not against the taking over of the Manx we improve our situation? We are going Customs and Excise. I certainly welcome to find out whether we can or we cannot the work done by everybody to this end, do it. To me, this, as I have said, is the and congratulate them on the way that first step on the ladder to give us greater perhaps they have applied themselves to independence, and I sincerely hope you it of late. So I do not want my early com- will support the Bill. I, personally, would ments to be taken as a criticism of that strongly oppose the idea of it going to objective. What I do consider, and I still any Committee because I think that, as I feel this, although the hon. member, the have said, the amount of time that has Chairman of the Finance Board, has been spent on this, the amount of consul- answered one or two of the points that I tation that has taken place by all the raised, I still feel that within this Agree- various departments are very well worthy ment there are other matters where the of support, and if we are going to get actual clauses and the matter to which we some progress made, now is the time to are committing ourselves, I think, perhaps, do it. I beg to move. have other implications. When I was refer- ring to haste earlier on, which I think was Mr. Delaney: Mr. Acting-Speaker, on a accredited to me, I was not referring to point of information. I did ask specific haste in the overall matter, I was simply questions in the debate. I did ask clearly, referring to the fact that there has been for the record, for the Chairman to point very little time for us to get certain infor- out that under this Agreement implemen- mation from the Heads of Agreement to ted by this Bill that this Government, if it the Agreement in a specifically expert occurred next year that value added tax manner. I do take the point it has been to was increased, we could give six months' constitutional advisers. I understand that notice of withdrawal. Is that clear? some of the United Kingdom Government people have looked at it and I will accept Mr. P. Radcliffe: It is perfectly clear. As all that, but there are certain questions the hon. member for Ramsey pointed out still unanswered, and I would be quite — I thanked him for his great support. He prepared under those circumstances if we

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could have these many questions which his seat, but I think there would only be are in various members' minds answered delay in sending it to a committee when, before we get to the third reading, if pos- in fact, at the next sitting of this hon. sible, even if we go through the clauses House we are going into a committee of now. I am prepared to take advice on this, the whole House on this Bill, and we are but I believe that the only method that is considering all of the clauses. I must admit open to us to get some information of this there is one question that I have and I nature is that we have, possibly, a very will tell you what it is. In Article 12 of the short-term committee with authority to Agreement the Governments agree to in- report back in a matter of a week or two, troduce arrangements, including any to find out the answers to some of these necessary legislation, for the recovery of matters that have been raised today. They equal duties. In Article 14 the Governments are fundamental, they are dangerous in agree to arrangements, including any one or two respects, but perhaps, as the, necessary legislation, for value added tax. Chairman of the Finance Board has made Now, both those two are included in the the remark that we are trying to break Bill, but they also go on in Article 16 things in common with the United Kingdom, — "The Governments agree to introduce you may say that to get the answer to this arrangements, including any necessary we should abrogate completely. But para- legislation, for the free exchange of infor- graph 6 does say that the Isle of Man mation . . ." Now, my query is that in Government agrees to keep all Customs Article 2 the Governments agree to intro- and Excise revenues at the same rates and duce legislation in Parliament and in Tyn- subject to the same conditions. And then wald respectively to implement this Agree- we run on to a whole series of complicated ment in time to meet the effective date of things on how this should be done later transfer. My query is this. Is that third on. I would just like to see the technical Article I have quoted covered? Is, in fact, matters of this, not the principle, because no necessary legislation required? Here I I agree with the principle wholeheartedly, think that obviously I could go to the but the technical matters of this looked at Attorney-General, and I could say to him, just to make sure we are not accidentally "Mr. Attorney, is this point all right?" But putting our foot in it constitutionally as I would prefer to see it answered here in well. Therefore, I would propose that it open sitting of this hon. House, and I goes to a committee of this House, be it would suggest, if the House agrees, that that the committee has a very short life, we ask the Attorney-General to come along if necessary, to report back within four at the commencement of the clause stage. weeks to the House, which I believe, in He will answer your queries, he will that period of time would still enable the answer my queries, and it will be open to Bill, if the necessary answers are forth- the public to see clearly that this is fair coming, to complete its passage in time. I and square and above board and com- beg to move. pletely legal.

Mr. Craine: I beg to second. Mr. Creer: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I am not Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Acting-Speaker, may in favour of it going to a committee. I I raise, first of all, a point of order? Stand- hope we will deal with it today. But I do ing Order 131, I think it is, whereby we follow on what the hon. member for West are permitted to request the attendance Douglas, Mr. Kermeen, has said. I have of the Attorney-General in this House for advocated for a long time in this hon. purposes of explanation. I am not going House that the Attorney-General should be to run down the clear apprehensions of sitting there at all times instead of being the hon. member who has just resumed in the Legislative Council, and I would like

Customs and Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Deferred for one week. K54 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 to see that day coming because I believe deadline. I think it is important that we get that we should have the Attorney-General on with it and I think this is the way to in this House. But I do believe that to achieve it, for hon. members to get the refer this to a committee is just wasting answers they require, and I support the time. There is a certain amount of haste hon. member for West Douglas. on it and I can see it being held up for perhaps a month or six weeks in London Mr. Ward: If this is a serious suggestion waiting for the Royal Assent. I hope that by the hon. member for West Douglas for the House will get on with it. postponing the clause session from now with the proviso that the Attorney-General Mr. Anderson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I will sit in session next week, I am in full would just reiterate the words of the hon. support. I think that is the best idea. I must member for Middle who has just resumed confess that when I first saw the Agree- his seat and I support the hon. member ment and I saw the Bill, my first reaction for West Douglas. I think this is the way was pretty limp, to be quite honest, be- for hon. members to get the assurances cause putting it more crudely than the that I think, rightly, they are requesting. To hon. member for Garff, I could not see any put this to a committee when a committee reason to rush out and burn any bonfires has sat on it for two years, and I will assure on the headlands. (Laughter.) But having the hon. members of this House that in my said that there are some things that do 13-odd years in this hon. House there has concern me. There are so many things not been such an accumulation of material that are in my mind about this. I find that on any one subject. It runs anything from as the Bill has evolved and the debate has 10 inches to one foot in depth of materials evolved, I certainly see things a lot more that have been studied. If any committee clearly, and I certainly would not be against thinks that they can get through that in the the Bill, but I would like to have some sort matter of the next few weeks, I really ques- of assurances and I hope that by having ion it very much indeed. They will be 24 the Attorney-General here next week I hours a days, seven days a week if they think we can have those assurances. are going to do it in that time. I think that First of all, I would like to take even the this is the way, I think the Attorney- mover of the Bill, the hon. Chairman of General's presence here can give the Finance Board . . . I think he did say in assurances that are required. It has been one of his interviews for the British Broad- looked at by the Committee and our legal casting Corporation, when the suggestion advisers here, through the constitutional was put to him, was there any merit in the adviser, and he has given recommenda- suggestion that the only anxiety we had to tions, and I feel that these are sufficient, accomplish this sort of thing was to make but in order to give everybody the the Isle of Man more of a tax haven, or assurance they require, I think that at the more of a — I may say quite crudely - next sitting of this hon. House, if the "con-man's" paradise, or something like Attorney-General's presence in the House that. He did say quite sincerely, I think, was permitted, I believe that he could that what he had in mind or what the Corn- come up with the answers and give the mittee had in mind was whatever benefits assurances that are required. I do think would come out of this would be overall it is important that we get on with the benefits which would eventually benefit the business because if we do not make the sort of people who have not had any deadline it is not a matter of the 1st June material benefit out of the upsurge in the instead of the 1st April, it is the 1st April Isle of Man over the past 10 years. I 1981 instead of the 1st April 1980. We will think that is a true assumption of what he miss the whole year if we do not make the said. I am very anxious that this should

Customs and Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill —Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Deferred for one week. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K55 happen, and I would deplore it, in fact, if this Agreement and a Bill similar to our we did go to all this trouble and that the Bill is being put through the House of thinking at the back of it was to make Commons to assist us in the Isle of Man things a lot easier for firms, for confidence to get more control of our own power, and tricksters, and for bankers in the future in we as a House of Keys are going to say, the Isle of Man. I hope I can be reason- we must have second thoughts on this, we ably happy in the future with the outcome must look at it again now and decide of this, that the benefits will be overall, whether or not certain sections of this and when we come to consider what taxes Agreement are satisfactory. For heaven's and what value added tax we are going to sake, gentlemen, be responsible. We have deal with, let it be for the overall popula- persuaded the people in London to do tion of the Isle of Man and not one par- what we want them to do, to get this Bill ticular section. I support the suggestion put before the Houses of Parliament, and that the Attorney-General sit in on the let us get on with doing the job, and if meeting next week. you are going to start and have somebody going through the Agreement and picking Mr. P. Radcliffe: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I would just like to get one point clairfied, out these various clauses at this moment if possible. We talked about, possibly, in time, I can tell you, as, I hope, a sending this to a committee. I would like reasonably senior responsible member of somebody to tell me what we are sending this Government, my attitude has always to a committee because, as I understand been, and I can convince, I hope, the hon. it, we are today discussing a Bill. There member for South Douglas on this point, have been lots of comments made about we have said categorically from the Fin- the Agreement. Let us be frank about this. ance Board's point of view that when we The draft Agreement would be sent to talk about enhancing, shall I say, the Tynwald, accepted by hon. members. The revenue from the financial sector we have final comment on it was, will you give us no intention whatsoever of saying, let us an assurance that that Agreement will be improve that sector for the benefit of the put to our constitutional lawyer to look at, financial sector and I think we have proved and if he comments on it favourably or that by the fact that we give higher supple- wishes to make recommendations on how mentary benefits, higher family supple- it can be improved, then we accept it. ments, take out of the income tax bracket We did that, we have gone through the the lower tax people and it is our firm whole procedure, we have signed the intention that when we can do this — you Agreement on both sides, after consulta- may shake your head — you cannot ex- tion, and taken the advice of the most pect overnight that unless you have got highly qualified adviser that the Manx Gov- money coming into a "kitty" you can take ernment has got, and now somebody is money out of it and we cannot give all the talking about putting it to a committee. The benefits that we would like to give until main point that has been made is in dis- we are in a financial situation to realise cussing the Agreement. I am all for hon. this, that both our capital expenditure and members getting all the advice they can. I certainly would be quite prepared to our other involvements in Government are accept the idea that the Attorney-General not going to be shattered by some step sits in with us and tells us all about the that could be taken at Budget time. I know various clauses and takes it through, but I I am digressing, Mr. Acting-Speaker, but, certainly hope that we are not going to nevertheless, I want to convince members find ourselves in a situation that could be that the policy of putting this through is embarrassing to the Manx Government for the benefit of the people in the Isle of when, at this moment in time, or this week, Man as a whole.

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Mr. Delaney: Regardless of what the hon. of this Bill that most reports that come mover of this Bill says, I hope we all take from his department often point out that notice of what the hon. member for South value added tax is one of the biggest Douglas says. He does not get to his feet reasons for the big increase in the cost of to speak very often, but when he does he living in the Isle of Man and for that reason always speaks straight commonsense. I I support the Bill and for that reason only, would like to remind the hon. mover of a to have some control over value added Government document once again because tax. what the hon. member for South Douglas is saying is very pertinent to this Bill and The Acting-Speaker: Hon. members, we the reasons for it. I would remind you are covering a lot of ground in this debate what was said in the general index of re- because it is an important constitutional tail prices again. The last section of that issue but could we please try and get says: "New cars, motor insurance, furni- down to the question of whether the Bill ture and floor coverings were more ex- should now go to a committee or not. pensive, contributing to the 0.1 per cent. However, the hon. member for Garff increase in items other than food. Other wishes to speak. price rises were the result of traders pass- ing on value added tax increases which Dr. Mann: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I would they had previously absorbed." add just one or two comments to what was said against having a committee. The hon. The Acting-Speaker: May I ask the hon. mover of this Bill has drawn our attention member if this really is in relation to the to the fact that we were offered the oppor- motion for the appointment of a commit- tunity originally when the resolution was tee? put before Tynwald to either vote for it or against it. The vast majority voted for it Mr. Delaney: I would suggest, Mr. Acting- and he, as Chairman of his Committee, Speaker, it is because I am actually sup- went to London and signed the Agreement porting the hon. member for South on behalf of the Manx Government. This is, Douglas in his view to having the to us, an emotional issue. I would suggest Attorney-General sitting in that chair to that to the United Kingdom Government, reply to questions from this hon. House. perhaps in a smaller way, it is also an emotional issue and if, in fact, the United The Acting Speaker: The House is Kingdom Parliament now turned round and naturally interested, sir, in whether the said, let us put this to a committee, we Attorney-General will be here for the clause do not really think we ought to go ahead stage. We are in the clause stage now, in with this, we ought to have second effect. What has happened is, the hon. thoughts, there would be uproar in this member for Middle has proposed that this House, and I am suggesting that we should Bill be referred to a committee. Now can not give them the equal opportunity of we please decide whether or not the Bill having uproar against us. We signed the will go to a committee. Agreement, we must honour that Agree- ment. I agree, we must look into every Mr. Delaney: Therefore, Mr. Acting- detail of it, we must see that we are not Speaker, in view of what the hon. mover committing ourselves beyond that Agree- of the Bill has said, I will be voting against ment or, in some way, committing our- a committee but I would still stand and selves to something unknown that we support the suggestion made by the hon. should not be doing and I am sure the member for South Douglas, and it is only Attorney-General will advise us, so I a suggestion, I am aware of that. (Inter- would certainly say that we must honour ruption.) I would remind the hon. mover this Agreement, we must honour our

Customs and Excise (Transfer of Functions) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Deferred for one week. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K57 commitment freely given before that Agree- sider pulling out of the Common Purse ment was signed, and I think that the in- Agreement. As I say, I give them 100 per clusion of the Attorney-General in deliber- cent. marks for what they have done and ation of clauses will, in effect, overcome let us keep our agreement unanimous. any difficulties that individual members may have. Mrs. Quayle: Mr. Acting-Speaker, could I move that it is deferred until we see the Mr. Christian: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I Attorney-General? The day before I was would only say that I take it we not only elected a member of the House of Keys, unanimously passed the second reading of or possibly the day after, we were all in- this Bill, which I think is important, vited down here to meet and be talked to because a similar Bill has to go before by Mr. Rippon and he told us, or sold us, Parliament and how hon. members of Parlia- the idea of our special relationship with ment regard it will depend, to some extent, the European Economic Community and on what they will find is the action or the the alternative he gave us was to get out opinion of members of the House of Keys completely, to be disassociated com- or of Tynwald as a whole representing the pletely from the European Economic Com- Manx public, so it is most important. I munity. We accepted his idea as it seemed think it is a very good thing that this has to us then very good. I did not know, for been passed at the second reading unani- instance, that the Faroe Islands had a mously. This Bill, after all, arises out of much better position negotiated for them the report and the report has been accep- by Denmark in the European Economic ted. I take it that what we are doing is not Community. I know other people have been now proposing in any way to disagree with very impressed by paragraph 22 but when the Agreement itself but merely to ask for it says six months' notice for termination I clarification. I must admit myself, and I do not know what termination means. Does know I am three years out of the law now it mean we get back to the position we and I am not as bright as I was. It is sur- are now in? (Interruptions.) Yes, but does prising how quickly it leaves you, so there it mean we go back to the position we are are a few things on which I would like the in now? Are we going to be completely Attorney-General's opinion. All we are finished? (Interruptions.) You see what I asking for is an explanation but I would mean, the alternatives are so drastic, this not like it to appear when we get out of is what worries me and I do think that we this House that there is any suggestion of need some official advice on something as anybody wishing to go back on the Agree- important as this. ment. It was accepted unanimously and the second reading of the Bill has been Mr. Craine: Mr. Acting-Speaker, what I accepted unanimously. There is a lot of am concerned about here is this. We talk about this doing away with value agreed on this document here. Now, there added tax and all this. It is not. I think this was apparently a proposal put forward by Committee have been very clever, I give Mr. Speaker that after consultation with them full marks for it. They have been very Mr. Maurice Bathurst, this Agreement clever in the way they have got this Agree- would come out, but we did not see this ment which provides the framework. At the Agreement until after it was signed. Why present time we are bound by the Common was not this Agreement brought to us Purse Agreement, fully bound by it. We before it was signed? We should have had cannot abrogate it tomorrow unless the explanations and we would not have Parliament agrees. Now they have got us had all this. a new Agreement by which we are only tied down for six months at a time and Mr. Swales: As a matter •of fact, Mr. that is vitally important if we are to con- Acting-Speaker, I agree that this House

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should have the help of the Attorney- work, and there are others. I could have General when the clause stage of the Bill gone into detail as to what I was talking is taken. about but that is not entirely to the point. My main reason for wanting this to go to a The Acting-Speaker: You are asking a committee was because I could see this as question here, sir? There is a motion the only way in which we could perhaps before the House that the Bill be referred find out certain matters of information to a committee. There have been sugges- which were worrying us all because the tions by certain hon. members that when procedure was such that we were debating we deal with the clauses the Attorney- an enabling Bill which had no provision General should be present. That is a a•t all. It does not even mention the matter I am quite prepared to deal with Agreement in the terms that we would like as soon as a decision has been taken over it mentioned and that was my reason. whether or not the Bill goes to a com- Now, I do accept the suggestion that if mittee. the Attorney-General is sitting in here and questions are referred to him, then much Mr. Swales: May I ask one further ques- of the dissatisfaction or many of the tion? The Chairman of the Finance Board worries, more than dissatisfaction, that we has, quite rightly, I think, stated that he have could well be answered, easily and would not expect when we debated the simply answered. I also agree with the clause stage of the Bill that we would hon. member, Mr. Craine, that that should debate all the 25 clauses in the Agreement. have been done before the Agreement was The Agreement we did not see, there is no signed and then we would not have had question about that, but what I would like this problem. So, therefore, what I am to have reassurance on is that we might going to suggest to you is this. As long as be allowed to ask for an explanation on we all understand that not only will we be one or two items on the 25 clauses in the asking questions about the clauses in the Agreement, not a full debate, an explana• Bill but we will also be able to get tion, and I would expect that we would be answers about our worries on clauses in entitled to an explanation and I do not the Agreement and, incidentally, I would think this would upset anyone at all. pose you another question, if we get an answer which the majority of us are un- Mr. Watterson: In answer to the Chair- comfortable about, we have got another man of the Finance Board's question as to decision to make then but, even so, what the purpose of a committee, I did explain I want to do, on the understanding, if the that before by saying that I was aware that other hon. members will agree, if the these decisions had been made on very Attorney-General is willing to attend when- good advice from the United Kingdom ever we sit next to discuss this, we look authorities and our own adviser in the not just at the clauses in the Bill but get United Kingdom but I felt that there were questions that are worrying us on the further implications, perhaps, in this Bill Agreement answered as well, then on that or the Agreement that needed to be basis, hon. members, I would be happy to looked at by other professional advice and withdraw the motion before the House. I had in mind some of the advisers who do advise both the British Government and The Acting-Speaker: The question before many other Governments in the world on the House is that the Bill be referred to a matters of this nature. They are available committee. both in Britain and in Europe. I can men- tion but one to you, Professor Cedric Sand- Mr. Watterson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, could ford, Professor of Economics at Bath I say, on that basis I would be prepared University who, indeed, does this type of to withdraw the motion.

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The Acting-Speaker No, either the hon. before the House is the Wild Animals (Re- member withdraws the motion or he does striction on Importation) Bill for second not. There is no conditional withdrawal. reading and I call upon the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Walker. Mr. Watterson: I have withdrawn it. Mr. Walker: Mr. Acting-Speaker, here we The Acting-Speaker: Thank you. It have more far-reaching legislation which appears to me that there is a fairly general can have, I am sure, a very real effect on feeling in the House that the clause stage the lives of many individuals in our com- should be dealt with when the Attorney- munity, especially if they wish to have as General is present in this Chamber. Now, bedfellows crocodylia or pongidae. without having a long debate on the (Laughter.) The intention of the Dangerous matter, I would like to hear whether hon. Wild Animals Bill that this Court did not members are agreeable to this or not. I accept in 1977 was to regulate the keeping would suggest, especially to the hon. of several kinds of dangerous wild animals. member who is in charge of the Bill, if the During that debate, however, many mem- hon. member will agree, that the clause bers expressed the opinion that it would stage and the third reading be deferred be more acceptable to introduce a simpler until next week. Bill completely prohibiting the importation Mr. P. Radcliffe: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I of dangerous wild animals but exempting am quite prepared to accept that we with- by licence those animals coming to the draw until next week so that hon. mem- Island for exhibition purposes in circuses bers can have the opportunity of listening and zoological gardens. The Board of to the Attorney-General. I have no wish Agriculture and Fisheries accepts the need for them to take any decision that they for this legislation to control the importa- would regret. I am certain they will not, tion of dangerous wild animals and it is but, nevertheless, I am perfectly prepared now, we hope, acceptable to members of to accept that. this House and, in due course, the Legis- The Acting-Speaker: Does the House lative Council, that the enactment of this agree? legislation will do just that. During the debate on the former Bill, hope was ex- It was agreed. pressed that it could be used to control Mr. Quinney: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I was the use and keeping of guard dogs which going to second that and suggest that the can be a cause for concern in a lot of mover will include the second and third cases. However, this measure is for the readings so that we will not be asking for control of wild animals which, by definition, the suspension of Standing Orders. excludes the domestic dog however it happens to be trained. The wild animals The Acting-Speaker: We have already which are specifically referred to in this had the second reading, sir. It is suggested Bill are listed in the Schedule which can that we have the clause stage and the third be varied by the Board of Agriculture and reading next week but certain hon. mem- Fisheries by means of an Order which must bers, if they feel next week that they wish be approved by Tynwald. Briefly then, Mr. to delay the third reading, that is up to Acting-Speaker and hon. members, the Bill them. now before the House proposes to pro- hibit the importation of scheduled WILD ANIMALS (RESTRICTION ON dangerous wild animals except those im- IMPORTATION, ETC.) BILL — SECOND ported under licence issued by the Board READING APPROVED; CONSIDERATION for the purpose of exhibition in circuses OF CLAUSES COMMENCED. and zoological gardens. Mr. Acting- The Acting-Speaker: The next business Speaker, I beg to move.

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Mr. Crain: I beg to second and reserve Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I my remarks. must say that I approve of this Bill. I do not think it is right that an individual Members: Agreed. should be able to import and keep on his premises, as a pet or a curiosity, an Mr. Lowey: No, not agreed, because animal which is a potential danger both to really I want to refer to the very last point the keeper and to the public at large with- mentioned by the hon. member in moving out a licence to do so. One or two animals the Bill — excluding the domestic dog and are not mentioned. I was thinking perhaps thereby the guard dog from this list. This of one in particular which is the ferret Bill, he says, is specifically for wild family. Every other family that one could animals, quite rightly, but I believe that think of is there but I do not see any men- this Bill should and could have included tion of the ferret which, if not properly this particular worry to many people and kept and allowed to escape, can do a it is a worry to many people with the tremendous amount of damage to domestic growth of security firms using these fowls in particular and I would point out that animals more and more and we have seen a ferret which has been kept in domestic in the Isle of Man this summer a growth in surroundings will return to domestic this particular form of security. Whether surroundings to look for food rather we aoprove of it or not, I think we should than hunt in the wild and I would be able to control it and I think this is a raise with the hon. mover the question of glorious opportunity to include a particular the licence and suitable premises being clause for that because I notice in the tied together. As I read the Bill, I could go Schedule they actually take out the and probably receive from his Board a domestic dog. The very first one is the licence to keep, say, a deadly snake and I dog family. "This kind includes the wild would not have to show to his Board that dog, wolf, jackal, coyote, fennec and fox, I had somewhere completely safe to keep except that the domestic dog is specific- that particular animal and I wonder if they ally excluded." So it is excluded specific- would be checking before they issued a ally. Now I believe that the need for con- licence to keep such an animal, whether trol is very important. I know the problems it he snakes or any of the other animals the mover of this particular Bill had last mentioned, to look at the premises in con- time and I do not wish to be — I dare junction with the licence. not use the pun "dog in the manger" as it has been already used — but I do Mr. kermecn: Mr. Acting-Speaker, it is believe that an opportunity has been only a technical point that I would like to missed to meet a need which is apparent raise, preparatory to the clause stage of on the Island and which is growing and, the Bill. We have just finished with a Bill therefore, I feel there should be a little which, in effect, transfers the Customs and explanation and perhaps willingness to Excise administration to the Isle of Man. accept an amendment covering that In clause 2 of this Bill now in front of us specific point. there is a provision in sub-clause (5) for certain references to the Commissioners The Acting-Speaker: I doubt very much of Customs and Excise to be transferred if we could accept an amendment to this to the Board, that is the Board of Agricul- Bill, which is known as the Wild Animals ture and Fisheries, but in sub-clause (4) (Restriction on Importation, Etc.) Bill, there is a provision for a person commis- unless it were in respect of a wild animal. sioned by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise. When these Bills are, as it Mr. Lowey: They can be pretty wild. were, advancing in tandem I think we have

Wild Animals (Restriction on Importation, Etc.) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Commenced. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K61 got to be careful that we are not, as it some animals which are both dangerous were, giving a power within this Bill to the and which some people feel distasteful to Commissioners of Customs and Excise find in limited circumstances, and I would which has been taken from them by the Bill very much like to hear your Board's views which has just been considered by the on the way in which they will behave in House. I wondered if the hon. member issuing a licence under these circum- would like to check with the learned stances. Attorney-General on that point? Mr. Watterson: When the predecessor to Dr. Mann: Mr. Acting-Speaker, the last this Bill came before this House, there time, when this Bill came under a different was one point in about the health of the name, there was strong objection to animals if they were leaving a particular exemptions granted automatically to zoo- country, especially a tropical country where logical gardens and circuses and I notice experience has proved in quite a few European countries of late that animals the way in which this has been changed imported have not necessarily been in a very cleverly so that, as you say, all im- particularly healthy state, and have then portation is denied and prohibited except provided the authorities with tremendous under a licence. Now, ". . . no such problems. We have all heard recently of licence shall be granted except for the the problem of transportation certificates purpose of a circus or of a zoological when animals were stuck in Italy for a garden." I would hope that this is not period of time and I would just like a automatically going to mean that just clarification on the health of an animal, because somebody says they are setting because it was originally suggested that a up a zoological garden or importing a certificate should be issued by a compe- circus, automatically, without any question, tent authority in the country of origin you will issue a licence. The whole circum- before they were allowed into the Isle of stances here are that as far as importa- Man. It seems an incredible expense to tion for a zoological garden or for a ship an animal of this nature here and then circus is concerned, you are, in fact, taking find out that it is not fit and refuse to give the greatest risk or one of the greatest the licence. risks in importing wild animals. As far as zoological gardens are concerned, they Mr. Cringle: Again, Mr. Acting-Speaker, escape and so the security of these animals on clause 4 of the Bill, can the hon. mover is a necessity as far as a zoological garden in his reply comment on clause 4(c)—"in is concerned but the circumstances in the case of a scheduled wild animal born which animals are imported, albeit in a circus or a zoological garden, that it temporarily, for exhibition in a circus, the was born . . ." That permits, apparently, circumstances in which these animals are a person to have it in his possession kept from the point of view of security and without a penalty, and would the hon. also the desirability of keeping them in mover explain to us whether or not he limited accommodation even for such a feels that this clause needs an amend- short period is open to question by a ment so that there is a restriction, even large number of the population, and so I on those wild animals which are bred with- would be very interested to know, firstly, in zoological gardens or circuses, being if you issue a licence, can anybody ques- sold to Manx residents for them to keep, tion that licence or appeal against that free of licence. licence, are you going to set conditions to that licence, and is there going to be some The Acting-Speaker: Does any other hon. sort of code of practice laid down in member wish to speak? I call on the hon. which there is temporary importation of member to reply.

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Mr. Walker: Thank you, sir. With regard the House is that the Wild Animals (Re- to guard dogs, I did take this matter up striction on Importation, Etc.) Bill 1979 be specifically with the legal draftsman's now read a second time. All those in department, and I was advised that under favour please say aye; against, no. The this Bill it was not possible to include ayes have it. Clause 1. them. I will make further enquiries and if, in fact, it is possible, I know the Board of Mr. Walker: Clause 1, sub-clauses (1) Agriculture will not object, I am sure that and (2), prohibit the importation of is the case, but, as I say, I understand it dangerous wild animals listed in the is not possible to include them under this Schedule, but allow such animals to be Bill. Reference was made to the importa- imported for exhibition in a circus or tion of ferrets. Under the Destructive Im- zoological garden under the conditions of ported Animals Act of 1963, I understand a licence issued by the Board. I beg to that ferrets, mink, hamsters and that sort move clause 1. of animal can be stopped from being Mr. Craine: I beg to second, Mr. Acting- imported into the Isle of Man. The hon. Speaker. member for Garff, Dr. Mann, spoke of the practice of allowing circuses into the Isle Mr. Cringle: Mr. Acting-Speaker, the hon. of Man. Certainly, reading through the mover has, in his reply, said that licensing debate that took place early in 1977, was basically with the veterinary officers circuses were mentioned, but I did not who primarily, shall we say, look at the think that the comments made by hon. conditions and the kennelling or whatever members at that time inferred to me that you want to call it, of the animals. Would there was a feeling of abhorence against he also give us the assurance that he circuses and zoological gardens in general. would consider also, along with the con- Certainly, the issue of a licence by the ditions that the animal is kept in, whether Board's veterinary staff, the conditions of or not that person felt that the individual that licence will be that the quarters those was responsible enough to keep the animals are kept in are adequate and that animal? they shall be comfortable. The appeal, as I understand it, against the issue of a Mr. Anderson: He could give him a licence, will be an appeal to the Board veterinary examination too. (Laughter.) itself, so I think there will be an appeal and it will be heard in a sensible way. As Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Mr. Acting-Speaker, for importing animals from countries out- there is just one point, basically, I would side the United Kingdom which might have like the hon. member in charge to clarify. a poor animal health record, it is true to In sub-clause (2) it refers to a licence issued by the Isle of Man Board of Agri- say, I think, that our veterinary officers have a very good relationship with their culture and Fisheries. I thought earlier on fellows in other countries, and I feel sure he said there would be an appeal to the Isle of Man Board of Agriculture. Do I take that before any licences are granted a lot it that the people who issue the licences of enquiries will be made and, unless we would also hear the appeals? are satisfied, a licence will be refused. Dr. Mann: Mr. Acting-Speaker, could I Mr. Watterson: On a point of clarification, just ask one further point on this? Is the before the animal is shipped? policy of the Board to be one of restric- Mr. Walker: Certainly, before the animal tion, that is, in general terms, somebody is shipped, Mr. Acting-Speaker. has got to prove a good reason why they should keep a wild animal on the Isle of The Acting-Speaker: The question before Man, or whether, in fact, it is going to be

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automatic, that the Board will say, yes, Mr. Walker: Well, Mr. Acting-Speaker, I unless there is good reason why he should can certainly give the assurance to the not. I would suggest that the policy should hon. member that we will make certain be that the person has got to prove a that the person is a responsible person reason for keeping a wild animal, and that to keep animals, no question at all about some knowledge should be kept as to how that. As I understand it, in this Bill there many of these wild animals are at present is no procedure for appeal, but I feel on the Island, because it could, certain that in a practical way what would numerically, get out of control if somebody happen would be that an officer of the was not keeping a watch Board grants a licence in normal circum- stances and the appeal would be to the Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Mr. Acting-Speaker, Board. I can only suggest that that is what just briefly and following on the other will happen. I think that will be the case. points that hon. members have made, the Certainly, the whole idea of this Bill is to licence to be permitted to keep an animal, restrict the importation of wild animals could I ask again for clarification that it into the Isle of Man, and anybody who applies for a licence would have to prove would be tied in not only with the comfort a good reason to do so, no question at of the animal but his security, that there all about that. The comfort and security of is no possibility of escape of an animal out the animals will be a condition of licence. of the quarters in which he is placed? As far as snakes, and snakes in the grass go, and snakes in the bed go—(laughter) Dr. Moore: Mr. Acting-Speaker, the men- —a licence can be issued for the importa- tion which has been made of having a tion of wild animals for the purpose of good reason to import a wild animal, with exhibition. Now then, I cannot imagine particular reference to zoological gardens what sort of an exhibition we could put on and circuses, implies that a good reason with a snake in bed. (Laughter.) I means monetary gain, and might I suggest apologise, Mr. Acting-Speaker, I split that this may not necessarily be a good clause 1 into sub-clauses (1) and (2) and reason. only did those two sub-clauses. Sub- clauses (3) and (4) make it clear that the Mrs. Hanson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, we prohibition provisions apply equally to im- read very often in the press about people portations from the United Kingdom as to having odd ideas of keeping snakes in importations directly from abroad. I beg their own homes, even in their bedrooms. to move clause 1. Now, when a licence was going to be issued for animals, surely this would come The Acting-Speaker: I put to the House under the Public Health Act and would clause 1, together with the Schedule. All there be research made into exactly those in favour please say aye; against, where this animal was going to be kept? no. The ayes have it. Clause 2, please. If there are children in the same home, as we often read in the press about monkeys, Mr. Walker: Clause 2, sub-clause (1). snakes and various other peculiar animals The Board may determine the operative in their houses — (laughter and interrup- period of the import licence provided for tions) — I would like to have an assurance in sub-clause (2) of clause 1. Sub-clause that the surgeon and the Medical Officer (2) gives the Board power to make an of Health would also make investigation. Order which, subject to Tynwald approval, will enable the charging of import licence The Acting-Speaker: Would the hon. fees. Under sub-clause (3), an import mover like to reply? licence shall become void if it is estab-

Wild Animals (Restriction on Importation, Etc.) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Commenced. K64 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979

lished that an offence has been com- The Acting-Speaker: I put clause 2 to mitted under clause 4(3) in that false in- the House. All those in favour please say formation and documents were submitted aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Clause in order to obtain that licence. Sub-clauses 3, please. (4) and (5) enable the Customs and Excise or the Board, or persons authorised Mr. Walker: Clause 3 enables the Board, by either, to require persons possessing after consultation with the Scientific Ad- or in charge of a dangerous wild animal visory Committee, which will comprise of to furnish proof that that animal was, or the Chief Veterinary Officer, the Agricul- was being, imported under licence. If tural Adviser, Mr. Kind, who is the director such proof is not forthcoming then the of the Wild Life Park, and Dr. Garrad of animal can be forfeited. I beg to move the Manx Museum, to extend or reduce clause 2. the list of scheduled dangerous wild life animals by Order, and such Order would Mr. Craine: I beg to second, Mr. Acting- have to be approved by Tynwald. I beg to Speaker. move that clause 3 stands part of the Bill.

Mr. Kermeen: I appreciate that the hon. Mr. Craine: I beg to second. mover has not had time to examine my point about the operation and the functions Mr. Kermeen: Just again, one query, Mr. of the Commissioners of Customs and Acting-Speaker. The Scientific Advisory Excise, but if you look at the final clause Committee as defined in clause 7 has the you will see that there is a delay on the same meaning as in the Endangered Appointed Day Order provisions, so it may Species Import and Export Act 1979. There well be that this Bill will not get on the is no chapter in the marginal notes here. Is Statute Book until we have taken over that Bill enacted yet? control of our Customs and Excise. I think this matter is still capable of clarification, The Acting-Speaker: Do you wish to if the hon. member would possibly look reply, sir? into it before the third reading. Mr. Walker: It is not enacted but it is Mr. Watterson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, there on the way through the channels and, as is just one point there. When a licence is I understand it, this is the usual proce- revoked, according to this, it is very diffi- dure when two Bills go hand in hand. cult, I should imagine, to deal with the animals that are, therefore, being kept The Acting-Speaker: I put clause 3 to without a licence. (Interruption.) the House, hon. members. Those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have Mr. Anderson: That is no problem. it. Clause 4.

Mr. Watterson: That sounds a very Mr. Walker: In clause 4, sub-clause (1), simple reply to what could be a difficult it will be an offence for anyone to possess question. Is it the intention to export the or be in charge of a dangerous wild animal animals again, will the Board possess them unless (a) such possession or control is and sell them, or is it the responsibility of authorised by an import licence granted the owner to get rid of it? by the Board; (b) the animal was brought into the Island either before the corr Mr. Walker: I would say, sir, that it would mencement of the Act or before the animal be the responsibility of the Board to get became listed as a dangerous wild animal; rid of any animals that are forfeited. and (c) the animal was born on the Island

Wild Animals (Restriction on Importation, Etc.) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Commenced. HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 K65 of an animal lawfully imported into or on follows:—"Clause 4, page 4, line 10, for the Island. Sub-clause (2) makes it an `(Management)' substitute `Management'." offence for a licencee of an imported It is only a technical thing, that we remove animal to transfer the possession or con- the brackets around "Management". trol of that animal without first having obtained the approval of the Board. Sub- Mr. Quirk: I second that amendment, Mr. clause (3) makes it an offence for any Acting-Speaker. person to make reckless or false state- ments or representations or recklessly Mr. Cringle: Mr. Acting-Speaker, on produce false documents in order to clause 4, I commented at the second read- obtain an import licence. Sub-clause (4) ing stage to the hon. mover of the Bill as provides for a maximum penalty of £400 to the wording of clause 4, and I think on summary conviction or an unlimited fine here in this Bill we have a genuine danger on conviction by indictment. Sub-clause insofar as my interpretation of clause 4 (5), the Customs and Excise Act provides means that we are not going far enough. for a penalty not exceeding three times The hon. member for Castletown has com- the value of any goods, et cetera, the mented about those under the age of 10 importation of which is prohibited by any and criminally responsible walking around enactment. This, of course, makes it clear with wapiti, but shall we take another case? that the penalties provided under this im- At the present time, if you look at the portation of wild animals legislation shall bottom of the line, there are pongidae. not ba applied to offences under the Now let us take somebody who imports Customs and Excise Act involving the same pongidae under licence. They are per- animals. I beg to move clause 4 stands fectly well and perfectly capable of intro- part of the Bill. ducing those to the Isle of Man. As far as I know there are none here at the present Mr. Craine: I beg to second. time. (Laughter.) They can, apparently, Mrs. Quayle: We are presuming that the breed these in capitivity under licence. person who is the offender is criminally Once they have the licence for that animal, responsible or of a criminal age. Now, it is natural anyway that those animals will children very often have pets and they are breed. If we turn to clause 4(1), it says, not criminally responsible under the age "Any person who has in his possession or of 10. What are you going to do if you under his control any scheduled wild find a child walking round with a wapiti or animal shall be guilty of an offence" a — (laughter and interruptions.) which is perfectly correct. He is going to be guilty of an offence unless he has a Mr. Kermeen: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I have licence for it. Now these are brought in an amendment sheet. It is only a matter under licence. The progeny of these of removing the brackets from the word animals, apparently, according to (c), in "Management", but I take it that the hon. the case of a scheduled wild animal born member, Mr. Craine, will be moving that. I here, they do not come under licence and, am in some difficulty because it then goes therefore, presumably, the progeny of on, and we have not reached clause 7, to these pongidae can be happily passed on say that the Customs and Excise Manage- to anybody in the Isle of Man and there is ment Act means the Customs and Excise no licence required for them, and there- Management Act. Is this an Act of the fore one can see in 20 years time lots of Imperial Parliament or what? little pongidae — (laughter and interrup- tions) — running round the Isle of Man Mr. Craine: I beg to move the amend- without the necessity for any licence. That ment now, Mr. Acting-Speaker, which is as may very well be an extreme case, to put

Wild Animals (Restriction on Importation, Etc.) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Commenced. K66 HOUSE OF KEYS, OCTOBER 23, 1979 in that term, Mr. Acting-Speaker, but quite on, and a year later it could be totally genuinely, and I mean this quite seriously, different, so this could be overcome if the if we are to licence wild animals that come licences were only issued for short periods into the Isle of Man we should certainly of time and there was some provision for take the opportunity within this legislation at least going along to the premises and to say, similarly, that the progeny of those seeing the animal and there should be wild animals should be subject to licence provision also for licensing by right, I also, and it appears to me from the reading think, like the work permit system. If you of clause 4 that the progeny of any wild have a child he has a right to an auto- animals coming into the Isle of Man are matic work permit. not subject to licensing. I have not had time to word an amendment. Mr. Anderson: Mr. Acting-Speaker, may I draw your attention to Standing Order 5? Mr. Delaney: Mr. Acting-Speaker, I feel it is a bit difficult. You could see an inspec- The Acting-Speaker: With the agreement tor walking through Strand Street and of the majority of members of the House, it meeting with an orang-utan and when he is possible to continue after five o'clock. asks him what he is doing there he says, Now, do hon. members agree that we well, I am exempt. (Laughter.) It is quite should try and finish this short Bill? ridiculous to say, you have been brought in and you need a licence, (laughter and Members: No. interruptions) — it is quite silly, just be- cause the animal cannot speak for itself. Mr. Walker: Can I just say, sir, that I It is quite obvious to me that all animals, accept the need for progeny of any animal whether bred here or not, should have a under licence being subject to licence and licence. It just shows you how far the I will certainly look into a suitable amend- Work Permits Act is affecting us. ment. (Laughter.)

The Acting-Speaker: Can I take that as Dr. Mann: I think, Mr. Acting-Speaker, being your reply to clause 4? what the hon. member for Rushen is really bringing out is that the only offence is, in fact, not having a licence, and this only Mr. Cringle: No, Mr. Acting-Speaker, that occurs at the one time and that is when is not his reply to clause 4. What I think the animal is first imported, and there is the hon. mover is saying is that he will something wrong here. There is no auto- agree to a deferment of clause 4 until such matic means of revoking or restricting. I time as we have worked out an amend- know it says the length of time but the ment. length of time can be the lifetime of the animal. It could, perhaps, be overcome by The Acting-Speaker: So clause 4 is not issuing only a short term licence, because completed. That terminates the business it not only goes to the progeny, it goes to for the day. I thank hon. members for their the conditions in which they are being support and adjourn the House until Tues- kept. Now somebody could make a state- day next, 30th October, at 10.30 a.m. ment at the time they were licensed that they had a beautiful place, secure, and so The House adjourned.

Wild Animals (Restriction on Importation, Etc.) Bill — Second Reading Approved; Consideration of Clauses Commenced.