REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Wednesday, October 19, 1977 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: The Governor (Sir John Paul, (3) That Tynwald authorises the Trea- G.C.M.G., O.B.E., M.C.). In the Council: surer of the Isle of Man to advance out of The Lord Bishop (the Rt. Rev. Vernon capital moneys during the year ending 31st Nicholls), the Attorney-General (Mr. J. W. March 1978 a sum not exceeding £250,000 to meet the cost of the above proposal. Corrin), Sir John Bolton, O.B.E., Messrs. G. T. Crellin, E. N. Crowe, O.B.E., R. E. S. (4) That Tynwald approves of and sanc- Kerruish, J. C. Nivison, W. E. Quayle, tions borrowings not exceeding £250,000 being made by Government, such borrowings A. H. Simcocks, M.B.E., with Mr. T. A. to be repaid within a period of 30 years. Bawden, Clerk of the Council. In the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon. IL C. Kerruish, Your Excellency, the Steering Committee O.B.E.), Messrs. R. J. G. Anderson, W. K. of Tynwald dealing with transport have had Quirk, J. J. Radcliffe, P. Radcliffe, J. N. a report prepared and circulated to mem- Radcliffe, Dr. E. J. Mann, Messrs. A. A. bers, firstly stating the history leading up Catlin, R. .L. Watterson, E. G. Lowey, to the question of the Isle of Man Railway. M. R. Walker, N. Q. Cringle, Mrs. E. C. Members will recall that it was run for Quayle, Messrs. W. A. Moore, E. M. Ward, many years and subsequently stopped run- B.E.M., P. A. Craine, D. F. K. Delaney, ning because it became uneconomic, and E. C. Irving, Mrs. B. Q. Hanson, Messrs subsequently started again by the help of T. E. Kermeen, I.S.O., R. MacDonald, J. J. Lord Ailsa and, in turn, it was run by the Christian, G. C. Swales, with R. B. M. company, with the help of Government and Quayle, Clerk of Tynwald. the company had issued to the Steering Committee the desire that we should come to an early decision, either to continue to STEAM RAILWAY—REPORT OF subsidise the railway by a long-term agree- STEERING COMMITTEE RECEIVED; ment, or to purchase the railway. We added PURCHASE BY GOVERNMENT that we would come to a decision, and we — APPROVED. pledged Tynwald we would come to a decision by this October to do one of those The Governor: Hon. members, I under- things or to recommend to Tynwald that stand that the Chairman of the Local this was something which Tynwald should Government Board is not yet ready to reply not be interested in at all. We have come to the debate on item 17 on the Agenda down firmly, after taking evidence from which we deferred from yesterday, and various sources, that the railway is a therefore we will start with item number desirable thing for the Isle of Man and 21 and I call on the Chairman of the Tynwald, in fact, instructed us that we Steering Committee. should open negotiations with the company for acquiring the land, buildings and rolling- Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, 1 beg to stock necessary to run the railway between move:— Douglas and Port Erin and we did appoint (1) That the Report of the Steering Com- valuers, and the railway company in turn mittee on Transport on the Isle of Man appointed their valuers. We were very happy Steam Railway be received. to have assisting our Mr. Ennett the valuers (2) That Tynwald approves the purchase from the well-known firm of Cystal Bros., of that amount of land, buildings, track, locomotives, rolling stock, fixtures and fit- Stott and Kerruish and we had also the tings as set out in paragraph 7.1 of the services of valuers in connection with the Report for the sum of £250,000. rolling-stock, the best people that were

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government— Approved. T77 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 obtainable, and the railway company did into the question of the cost for the future similar and they both got together. We because we thought that Tynwald, if they should say that in approaching this situation were purchasing something, would have to we were aware that, or, rather we were of know too what would be the cost sub- the opinion that, Tynwald were probably sequently of running the railway. The esti- the only people who would purchase this mated deficiency was £41,000, we had down railway. We were of the opinion that, in a figure of an operating deficiency of some- fact, we were not of the opinion, we were thing like £25,000, this may be too small, absolutely sure, that it was not a viable but it was thought with energetic running proposition. This had been proved beyond of a railway of this kind it may well be any question of doubt, run by the company reduced, we do not want to present too themselves, and it had been run by us bad a picture. We also know that in the assisting, and it was not a viable proposition. future if the railway was run by an organisa- We were also aware that the assets associated tion within Tynwald, or without Tynwald, with the company in some cases — par- there would be the capital charge of, say, ticularly the Douglas station was quite a 10 per cent. on the £250,000, plus some valuable site, but we were also aware that amount to repay that, and it could well there were a lot of liabilities associated with come to £27,000 a year. Then we went into a railway company in the provision of the the question of the maintenance of the keeping up of the fences, the drainage, the bridges, fences, ditches, et cetera, and we bridges, the culverts, et cetera, and the did call in expert people to advise us on • gates. We were also aware that many of what these costs should be and we set those the assets associated with the company were out. We do say that we agree that it may in a fairly dilapidated condition clue to not be necessary to do this forthwith, but lack of maintenance and all of these things there is a responsibility and a liability to do had to he taken into consideration when this. Then we are aware that certain of the valuations were arrived at. I would say that bridges want immediate attention and some in the early stages there were differences in will want attention in the future and we the negotiators' values, but they got together have set out what those costs should be and eventually arrived at values that were We asked the firm of Henry Boot, the suitable to both sides and it was finally engineering company, as to what the costs agreed that a sum of £250,000 should be might be in the future for replacing of the figure which the Committee and the some of the sleepers and the rails along the company would agree to, and we would track which are, in many places, in a very recommend to Tynwald that the railway had condition and we were able to obtain should be purchased for this amount. We this and we have set this out in our report. believe, taking everything into consideration, For the rolling-stock too we engaged Mr. that this is a fair price for the assets. The Devitt, of Flyine Scotsman Services, and consideration of compulsory purchase was he indicated that the engine overhauls are mentioned in a previous Tynwald. We were necessary and certain improvements have to of the opinion, firmly of the opinion, that be made in braking systems to the coaches. • this method would be less advantageous et cetera, and a lot of money will have to than the method that we have pursued, that be spent in this direction too. We have set was the method of the valuers getting to- out all of this, and we estimate that the gether and we did rule out the long-term annual costs could well range between support for the railway in the form of us £175,000 and £122,000 a year starting off subsidising year by year and the Railway with the high figure and going down to the Company would not want that in any case. £122,000. It may well be that those figures In examining the possibility of purchasing are too high, it may well be, it may well the railway, we had to examine the potential be in some cases they are too low, but it cost of running the railway in the future would be wrong of us, in recommending and we did get a lot of figures together. This that you should purchase this railway, if will subsequently have to be decided as to we clid not tell you that these costs are the whether the railway will run and who shall estimated costs by people who know the run it. The proposition today is merely that business and some people might say, well, Government should purchase it. those other it is jolly well worth it too, and other people decisions will come later, but we had to go might say. well, this is money straight down

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Gov rnment • Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T73

the drain. We believe that we should tell just mentioning it in passing, the rails, the you what it should cost. There are, of fasteners and the sleepers, and we have course, associated with this, and 1 must be come to an agreement, too, over certain fair in the negotiations which we have other items, such as coal and so forth which arrived at, the £250,000 that we will he is a separate small amount for which we paying, provided Tynwald agrees to this, is are agreeing to pay the company £1,000. for the assets associated with the railway We are, in our agreement, allowing the and it could well be said that it is virtually company to remain in their office that they the price of the real estate, there is very accommodate for some six months in order little difference, and that the railway itself to give them an opportunity to tidy up and is more or less thrown in in the lot, bearing to finish their particular business. I would in mind that there are liabilities associated say that throughout the negotiations the with this company and with the keeping up Committee have enjoyed the most cordial of the railway. Whether the railway goes relationship with the directors and the staff or not, these liabilities are there and I do of the Isle of Man Railway. They are quite say that if Tynwald subsequently decided, astute and I think it is quite fair to say that I would hope not, but if Tynwald sub- the members of the Steering Committee sequently decided that they would not run were equally astute — I think it is fair to the railway, according to our valuers, they say that — but I do say that the negotiations advise us that we could recover most if not were carried on in a most cordial fashion. all of the money that is involved. I want The Railway Company did have the profes- to make it abundantly clear, that we are sional advice of Mr. Denard and Mr. Gar- recommending, as a Committee, that Tyn- roway who carried it out in a most amicable wald should purchase at this price being a way, although they had some very hard fair price and it does set out in this report tussles with our particular valuers. We what it does include. It includes the Douglas would like also to record our appreciation railway station with the engine sheds, the for the courtesy and co-operation that we carriage sheds, warehouses, together with received from the directors and their valuers offices, platforms and so forth, it is quite and we also were fortunate in having Mr. a big area of land at Douglas; the station Ennett, the Government valuer, the exper- buildings at Port Soderick; the station area tise of Mr. Brian Stott of Crystal Bros., and sheds at Santon; the crossing cottage Stott and Kerruish, that quite well-known at Ballawoods; railway station and land and firm, and Mr. Stott was very helpful to sidings and the forecourt at Ballasalla; the us. Mr. Devitt also, in his own field, was station buildings and land on which the most helpful and we do extend our thanks sidings are situated, warehouses and that for their considerable work. However, I portion of the forecourt at Castletown would also like to pay tribute to Mr. Robert owned by the company; station huts and Quayle, the Clerk of Tynwald, who has land at Ballabeg and Colby; the crossing acted as our clerk and secretary for the cottage at Ballagwne; the station buildings enormous amount of work that he had to at Port St. Mary, including the warehouse; do. Your Excellency, 1 would like to now the station buildings, platforms, engine shed move this resolution, item 21 on the Agenda: and workshop, museum and land at Port "(1) That the Report of the Steering Com- Erin. On the question of the museum there mittee on Transport be received; (2) That are certain items in the museum that do not Tynwald approves of the purchase of that actually belong to the company, they belong amount of land, buildings, track, locomo- to a Dr. Hendry, who is a follower and tives, rolling-stock, fixtures and fittings as supporter of railways, but it means all the set out in paragraph 7.1 of report, for the goods that belong to the company and then sum of £250,000; (3) That Tynwald autho- the land between Douglas and Port Erin on rises the Treasurer of the Isle of Man to which the rails and fasteners and sleepers advance out of capital moneys during the are, including the rails and fasteners, and year ending the 31st March 1978 a sum not then the rolling-stock — there are 14 loco- exceeding £250,000 to meet the cost of the motives, there are 15 four-wheeled wagons, proposal; (4) That Tynwald approves of and three eight-wheeled bogey flats, 39 coaches, sanctions borrowings not exceeding £250,000 two diesel cars, signal and telephonic equip- being made by the Government, such bor- ment, not perhaps up-to-date, but I am rowings to be repaid within a period of thirty

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government— Approved. T74 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 years." I have not made any recommendation through the long unlucrative winter months, at this stage as to the future management or and at the northern section again you will what shall happen. We have to take one have the Manx Electric Railway competing thing at a time; if this passes today the alongside it again, the nationally-owned 'bus Steering Committee will immediately give company, both competing for the same consideration to the many methods by which passengers probably. There may be some this could happen and will be coming for- passengers who would not travel by 'bus in ward at probably the next Tynwald, or as a month of Sundays, but they are few and soon as possible, with our recommendations far between, people will use what is avail- for Tynwald to consider as to the best way able. It may be, I have often thought, it in which this railway should be run. I trust. may be that we will have to hack the 'bus Your Excellency, that the Court will give full services to ribbons and let the electric support to this resolution and I can assure railway run in the summer with no 'buses to you that your Committee, the Steering Com- Ramsey, let the steam railway run in the mittee of Tynwald, have worked extremely south and no 'buses to the south, I do not hard, long hours many times and have know, but it is Tynwald's problem. Tyn- worked extremely hard to arrive at this wald has got to decide if it is prepared to conclusion and I sincerely believe it is a spend the money on all three which, at the satisfactory result to this Court. I would moment, and under the system we are now like to think also it is satisfactory to the coming up to, 1 can see always losing money company. and a considerable amount of money. It is Tynwald's decision to make. Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I rise to second the resolution and in doing so I Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I would like to say that the Steering Com- would like this morning to ask the Chair- mittee, whilst we have not always seen eye man of the Steering Committee on congratu- to eye on many things, we have usually, in lating the directors of the Isle of Man fact in all cases at the end, been unanimous Railway Company on the negotiations they in our recommendations to Tynwald Court. have made with the Isle of Man Govern- We were asked by Tynwald, Your Excel- ment. I can imagine next week they will be lency, to negotiate on behalf of Tynwald for laughing all the way to the bank because, the purchase of sufficient resources of the to me, the two projects the Manx Govern- old railway to provide for the operation of ment have been involved in in buying public the steam railway system. This we have transport, Manx transport 'bus undertaking done and, as my Chairman has said, the and now considering purchasing this, it is negotiations have been very amicably going to be a millstone round the Govern- carried out between ourselves and the com- ment's neck for the rest of our lives in pany. I think Tynwald is paying the lowest Tynwald. It does not surprise me one bit to possible cost for this service, but, Your realise that astute businessmen today very Excellency, in saying that I would be wrong rarely become politicians, because you have if I did not say to Tynwald, having got this got to look at it, I think, from two entirely figure, what they have got to decide for different angles. We have been told this themselves, and only Tynwald can decide morning there is a possibility that the this, is the problem facing us still of Government were, quite rightly, told to operating in the Isle of Man what is negotiate for the purchase of this railway. virtually all through the summer months Negotiate for it is one thing, the figure we when money can be made, three transport have been told we are going to pay for it services, when you have got two groups and what it is going to cost us in the future competing with one. What I am trying to is an entirely different thing from the nego- say is if you are operating the steam rail- tiations I would have expected them to way to the south of the Isle of Man in the come up with. It has been mentioned, if we summer, when there is money to be made now decide to buy it, then, after having in the Island, and this is what the company bought it, we then decide whether to run it found itself, and you have got at the same or not — well, heaven's above, what are we time a 'bus company having to operate to going to buy it for if we are not going to provide the residential services so necessary run it? If we did sell our assets back for for us, not only in the summer but all what we are going to pay for them, what are

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government— Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T75 we going to be landed with? Another railway station-masters, you name it, the staff obsolete railway line to maintain and look will be trebled or multiplied by ten I would after for years. One of the things that was say, the next year. I think we have got to mentioned yesterday, when I put forward be very seriously considering all these my remarks on other aspects of Govern- aspects of what the future is going to be for ment, was what exactly we are going to face the Manx Government regarding transport. up to in the future and this is basically what Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, there is the Government is all about and what we one question 1 would like to ask the hon. have got to decide. Are we going to have mover in relation to the southern line. Can three forms of transport in the Isle of Man, he tell us how many gatehouses in fact have as the hon. member for Peel has said, every been sold off and if we get going to find one of them in the summer time, when we that as soon as this thing gets going, if it are talking about trying to carry our visitors, does get going, are we going to be asked competing one against the other and every then to buy back or reinstate to provide one of them owned by the Government and shelters there for people to open and close all losing money? To me, the whole situa- these gates? I think that there is little doubt tion is completely crazy and the only thing about it that each one of us in our con- I can say is, if we continue with this policy stituencies have people who are very, very of spending Government money the way we enthusiastic about the railway and 1 think are, certain other aspects of Government that if there is a choice between keeping the will have to be put back a long way in our southern line going and the northern line Estimates or else we will have to change from Laxey to Ramsey going, possibly in our whole situation regarding Government the long run there may be more interest for revenue of the Isle of Man. I certainly hope tourism in the steam railway rather than that today serious consideration will be the Manx Electric Railway being continued given by this Government as to whether or in that line. I do think that the time could not these terms are the best terms that can very well come when these are the sort of be obtained. It rather surprises me and questions we have got to ask ourselves, when again it was a very clever and very well we are not going to be able to provide all organised effort on behalf of the Railway these things and continue to provide in- Company when, years ago, we were told it creased services for all our people as the was impossible to run the railway from Chairman of the Finance Board has said. Douglas to Port Erin, Port St. Mary and to There are very few of us really who want Castletown because (a) it was financially to vote against this because of our support impossible, (b) it was in such a dilapidated for the tourist industry, but if we look, you state of repair that it could not be run, and know if we talk in money, what tourism is now, all of a sudden, one year, out of the going to cost, even in the next 12 months, blue, it came forward let us get this done. it is a very startling figure and one has got We have been told also that it may or may to sit back and do a little bit of calculation not cost us more in future. I was informed as to whether or not really we are going the other day and I applaud the attitude to be able to depend on tourism as we have that was taken by the Railway Association, in the past, or whether it is really going to if that is the correct term, who, I under- be of much benefit to the Island when you stand, were acting as unpaid gate-keepers. I consider the amount of people in the tourist hope, if this goes through, and I also think industry, as the hon. member for Peel has this was pre-judged yesterday, because we said yesterday, who in fact have had to go will now find ourselves in the situation of to the register because it is a seasonal em- those that voted for the resolution yesterday ployment business. l believe the Island will will have great difficulty today in changing have to depend on tourism to some extent, their minds and voting against this one, that but we are certainly not going to have the in the future these people who very kindly facilities on the Island for increased num- and very keenly took an interest in the rail- bers because the beds do not exist in the way will continue to do what they have Island, there is no doubt whatever about done in the past, otherwise once the that. Whether or not we are going to be able Government get landed with it you will find to dish out money in the way in which we you will have to employ gatehouse-keepers, are thinking, which is really in the future

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government— Approved. T76 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 as costs escalate, it is not going on to figure, but the purpose for which it is being hundreds of thousands, but I can envisage a bought is a purpose with which I cannot time when the running of the railway system possibly agree because I believe, along with will cost between £250,000 and £300,000 a the Chairman of the Finance Board, who year to run and I would like that to be has already spoken, that this is gradually noted because I believe that if Tynwald going to lead us into a position where we agrees to that today, before the term of may find ourselves in great difficulty in office of hon. members of the House of having to maintain all the other essential Keys has expired, that will be the case. social services to which we have put our hands. I can see the 'bus services, the railway Sir John Bolton: Your Excellency, I have and the Manx Electric Railway adding up read this report very carefully and I must together to a matter of £1 million a year say that I cannot disagree altogether with out of revenue. Does it make sense? The the hon. member who proposed the resolu- purchase is not the matter with which I tion that to purchase the assets which are would quarrel as I say, but I am quite sure outlined here for £250,000 may not be a bad if we are going to think of running this thing, but the proposal is really motivated railway, running another railway from by the intention to run the railway. This is Douglas to Ramsey and the top of Snaefell where I believe that we are going to run and running the 'bus services as well, that into trouble. We have, for instance, a very we are going to find ourselves, sooner or valuable property at the Douglas railway later, and probably sooner rather than later, station, now if that were to be sold it would in very considerable financial difficulties. bring back a very large proportion of the £250,000, but what do we find, this would The Speaker: Your Excellency, 1 rise as be very useful for the 'buses, so that particu- an unashamed and unrepentant supporter lar point is going to be missed altogether, it of the operation of this railway system, to will not be sold, it will simply be there. We support the resolution and congratulate the have paid £250,000 for the lot, of which Steering Committee for once on what they that is the major portion, and we are going have achieved. They have received brick- to use it for the 'buses. Now on the other bats in the past, it is nice to be able today hand, we find that there are estimates here to laud the work they have done. You have of what this running of the railway is going had a very good illustration of the sort of to cost. It goes from £174,000 over the years attitude which brought the Island's tourism down to £122,000. I am not suggesting for virtually to its knees many years ago and a minute that these estimates have not been which, if it was to persist today would very, very carefully prepared and I am not probably bring it to its knees again in the suggesting that the Committee would inten- not-too-distant future. You have seen this tionally put forward misleading estimates, morning just the sort of thinking that is but what I am suggesting is that within a solely concerned with finance as they see it matter of two, three, four or five years these at this moment. What I mean by that is figures will be more than doubled. I have that when we buy this railway system I, for been here I think, as I have said before, for instance, would wish to sell it again. You a very long time and I can remember in may say that it is a very queer way of the late 1940's, when the health service was looking at this job. I would be selling it off being introduced, when the new social in £5 shares to supporters who would not security services were being introduced, and get a dividend, who would have no say in I can picture this very moment the late Mr. control but would have the joy of saying Kneen, of Port St. Mary, assuring the House we are part-owners of the Isle of Man steam of Keys that the health service that was railway. What a potential we have with the being proposed would cost us £100,000 a Millennium coming up in two years' time. year. I queried the figure, but I think we all when, despite the fact that we have been realise today that the figure is more than told there will be a reduction in tourist 60 times the £100,000 that was proposed, figures, or a likely steadying up of tourist and this is what I am convinced will happen. figures, the Millennium Committee Chair- I believe that as far as a purchase goes we man will tell you that the objective is to have complete freedom to do what you like have a million people here that year, people with it, £250,000 probably is not an excesive who will use these systems, people that

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government- • Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T77 would generate new life into them. I am coincidence that the tramways on the trying to say, do we have to be rigid in promenade are the only paying system on our approach to all these things? Do we the Island —their antiquity, their unique- have to look at them in a way that Govern- ness, this is the appeal. As time goes on ment is going to take it, run it and treble what we are casting cold water on today are the men, and so on. I believe there must be going to be the real assets of the future. other ways of looking at this sort of prob- am quite convinced that although there lem, and harnessing the enthusiasm that may be a lack of enthusiasm in some undoubtedly exists amongst people for pro- quarters, that this Court today will support jects of this nature. It is not a question of the Steering Committee and will take up the buy this southern line and reject the challenge and say we are going to run these northern line. It is a question of making systems for the benefit of the Island and its complementary to each other and get people people. We will prove, by using the business on the Isle of Man boats to sell them on ability that we have in this Court, it is not the way over to the Island during those four bereft of it, using that ability, we can en- hours that you have got a captive audience. sure that they are not going to be a mill- I know the Manx Electric Railway Chair- stone, as it has been described, around the man has this sort of thing in mind. We must neck of the Manx people, but really objects market these organisations when we get in which they can take pride of possession. them, but this, hon. members, is a challenge. It is a sort of challenge for the last 10 years Dr. Mann: I am glad to welcome a saner this Court has run away from. This is why attitude in this Court this morning. So far the railway system is run down, the 1vianx we have not had castigate, emasculate or Electric Railway system is run down and we even orchestrate — (laughter) — the psychia- are left to pick up a severer challenge than trists would have had a real ball. (Laughter.) otherwise would have been the case. I am To return to the serious matter before us, quite convinced that today this challenge we were told yesterday of the unusual will not be rejected by the Court. It will be economic climate in view of the thought of accepted by the Court and that we will go purchasing the Isle of Man Steam Railway on to make this system one in which we can Company. Of course the economic climate take a real pride. We are also buying here will never be good for the purchase of this assets that are going to be of real value to railway, not today or next year or the year our community, not only for perhaps the after, never will there be a time when it the transport pattern, but as our harbour will appear to all members of this Court facilities develop in Douglas, marshalling that it will be the ideal thing to do. There- yards are going to be invaluable to supply fore why should today be that special clay? the roll on/roll off pattern of operation and Well I, personally, from a knowledge of where could you get a better area for mar- railways, know that this railway at least is shalling yards than at that railway station? unique in itself. It is also valuable in itself. So there is a two-fold line here already It is valuable in itself, not in this case opening up, a usage which is going to be of because of the land and the real estate great benefit to the Island. Your Excellency, which I will accept, but because of its actual 1 am not going to go on labouring this character and properties. It is a genuine proposition. I regard this, if you like, as one antique and as a genuine antique should of my dreams that 1 see coming true. So increase in value and in a time of inflation, long we have been foiled in this direction; as most buyers of antiques will know, now is the better time rather than later. It is we have allowed the assets of the Island to also a way of ensuring that it does not get waste and decay. All we have seen is the dissipated and sold off and destroyed bit by great god Mammon, down in Athol Street, bit. By the Government taking this into its at work, where money, money, money— possession, we should ensure its continuity yes, money is of value, but it must also be for the future. During its hundred years, associated with the things that people are not a thousand years, Mr. Speaker, but a interested in. I think that in this Island one hundred years or just over, it has woven of the great things we have to sell is, shall into it the folklore and heritage of this I say, the antique character of many of Island for a span of over a hunderd years. the facilities we have to offer. It is no This must be a national asset in itself. It is

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government— Approved. T78 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

part of the national identity. If you want to Supporters' Association have done a mar- nationalise anything, then it has got to be vellous job in their belief and their keenness something that is different; different from and their enthusiasm. They have appeared other countries; different from other lands. at the bar of this Court and many learned If you accept the pure financial arguments counsel might well have taken a lesson from which we have to judge nearly everything the way in which they presented their case, else by, you just get a grey area without but if this report and resolution is agreed, I character which is efficient, correct finan- have every sympathy with the Government cially, but is totally lacking in any national agency who will be responsible for the identity at all. If we wish to preserve this steam railway, as they will, I am afraid, railway, we are creating something that is inherit the prickly relationship which these different within this Island and keeping it, supporters have with the Railway Company. but unfortunately there is the cost of a Things may be all right now, they see the national identity, and we have to accept this same way, but I do not forget the slanging from time to time, that if one is going to match that went on in public between the maintain the Manx character, the Manx Railway Company and the Supporters' As- heritage, then it costs money and are we sociation and that may well occur if indeed prepared to pay that money this day? 1 am Government does not run this steam rail- prepared to accept the pill, because a pill it way, if they wish to run it, in accordance is. It is a large sum of money and one could with the wishes of this small and enthusiastic think of a lot of other things that it could band of supporters. Your Excellency, on the buy, but if we are responsible for the future question of valuation, which of course has of the Manx heritage and the Manx identity, arisen in the report, I do not know if you then I think we ought to swallow that pill ever watch the programme on antiques today. called "Going for a Song". The other day, the audience were asked to value a coach Mr. Kermeen: 1 regret that this debate has and horses, a coach and two horses and the not been able to extend to the whole question valuation was £9,000, and I simply beg the of transport in the Isle of Man, because I question, well, who wants a coach and think the most significant event that has horses and, indeed, who does want a coach happened in the last year in the field of and horses, or an antique railway system? transport was what happened on Chistmas I do not know, it may be the wish of Tyn- Eve when there was a strike of the 'bus wald today to acquire this, but I just want company and the people of the Isle of Man to let the Court have, because I think it turned to the private sector and found that is necessary when they are thinking of an it was more convenient and indeed almost open-ended commitment here, to know what cheaper to go by taxi than by 'bus. I thought exactly we have spent on transport over the at that time that at long last the tide of last 20 years. The railway, the Manx Electric nationalisation was turning. However, this Railway was purchased for £50,000, the morning we are not dealing with transport, total expenditure for revenue and capital alas, we are dealing with one form of trans- up to date has been £1,223,000. The 'buses port, and here one of my earliest recollec- were acquired with a company with an lions on the steam railway is, with my issued share capital of £500,000, a deficiency parents, going on a Sunday afternoon to this year, not yet met from Government Crosby to where my great-aunt had a revenue of £154,000, and for the steam rail- little thatched cottage, going to chapel in way since the policy of grants were given the evening and coming back with the from 1969, in total £189,625 has been spent. oil lamps shining on Crosby station and That is what you are going to commit your- looking at the train coming in from St. selves to. Mav I just end by saying, "Going for a Song", 1 have been looking for a song, John's. It is for that precise reason that the song is one associated with the late, I am not going to permit nostalgia, or great Bing Crosby, it was the song of the sentiment, or even the sound voice of Mr. American depression. It will be a song Speaker, to cloud my judgement. We have which we will hear again from the Steering had here in the past probably the most Committee, it is "Brother can you spare a intensive and impressive lobby for many, dime", but it will not be a dime, it will be many years. The Isle of Man Steam Railway hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Comm ttee Received; Purchase by Government- Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T79

Mr. Craine: Your Excellency, I would three times the amount required; the surplus first of all like to congratulate the Steering money will be used to purchase new boiler Committee on the execellent way in which tubes to repair any other locomotives. The they have negotiated with the Isle of Man conclusions reached on page 4 of the rolling- Railway Company and the very hard line stock engineers' report I find contradictory. they have obviously taken in these negotia- The consultant talks about the cost of tions. They have gone considerably further buying new engines, which would clearly than my resolution of December anticipated, not be required. He states that suitable in that they have negotiated to purchase three feet gauge engines would be difficult everything rather than that amount required to find, although suitable metre gauge just to run a railway between Douglas and engines could be obtained, although it would Port Erin. On examining all the reports be difficult to reduce the overall dimensions and valuations, I find that we are or could because of the limited clearances on acquire the operating side of the railway for Isle of Man Railway. He then goes on to practically nothing. Admittedly, we would say it might be more economic to give con- be taking on the statutory obligations and sideration to the disposal of all the three liabilities of the railway, but these are not feet gauge locomotives and rolling-stock, re- as onerous as some people would have us guage the line to 4 feet 84- inches and pur- believe. However, I will remark on that chase sufficient standard gauge locomotives to subject later. The main assets of the Isle of run a service, clearly a contradiction to the Man Railway Company are, of course, the previous paragraph and absolutely an eco- land and buildings, and I believe that these nomic non-starter. Of course the firm of could be acquired at a cost that represents consultants engaged would be able to supply their true valuation, rather than the inflated the locomotives and rolling-stock. On the prices which have been talked about in the rolling-stock side, great emphasis has been past. The Douglas station, for instance, made on getting the vacuum brake system which comprises some 7-1 acres, plus the operative. While it may be desirable, it is station buildings — about 54 acres and the certainly not absolutely necessary. Perhaps main building block arc not needed to I could explain the vacuum brake system. operate the railway and could be either sold The railways on the Island have been out- or leased. Therefore the cost should not be side British jurisdiction, were and are not set against the railway. Most of the other affected by ancient legislation relating to station sites also have surplus land which automatic or continuous brakes on passenger could be similarly disposed of. The reports trains. It was not until 1925, when a train on the condition of the locomotives and which left Union Mills without a guard at rolling-stock are, as far as I can see, the rear ran into the platform at Douglas, accurate, although I find sone of the that the Government inspector recom- resulting inclusions a little odd until I saw mended the fitting of vacuum brakes. He some of the ideas behind them. On the gave the i-ompany two years to carry out locomotive side there are sufficient engines the work. This was later modified to on "as to run the service for a great many years. soon as possible" basis. The last new coach After all, in 1965 the late A. M. Sheard and the last new engine delivered in 1926 ran the whole system, that is to Peel and arrived vacuum fitted and they were the Ramsey, with five locomotives. We have only vehicles so fitted until 1932, six years five servicable engines at the moment to afterwards. By 1940 all but 17 coaches had run just Douglas to Port Erin, plus one been fitted. Work ceased during the war engine which the Supporters' Association years, but recommenced in 1944, but was intend to have repaired with money col- never completed. The over powerful vacuum lected by their appeal this year. Perhaps I brake was never a success. The engine could explain this a little more. In 1954 boilers could not cope with the extra steam engine number 9 was withdrawn from ser- required by the injectors which operated the vice with a faulty boiler, although the rest brakes and matters became worse when of the engine was in excellent condition. We steam heating was introduced in 1936. It have had the boiler examined by qualified became a matter of choice between having experts and a quotation given for repairs. warm feet or continuous brakes, neither if Early this year we launched an appeal fund, the engine was not steaming well. The con- which I am happy to say has raised nearly sultant, of course, would be able to find the

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government--- Approved.

T80 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 necessary vacuum brake equipment. The that the steam railway from Douglas to track work was a pleasant surprise con- Port Erin was not going to be required by sidering all the bad things that have been the resident population to get to Ballabeg said about it in the past. It starts off, "the from Port Erin, but it was being purchased overall condition of the railway is reason- purely on the grounds of it being a tourist able", and sets out a five-year programme attraction. I have always taken the view for up-grading, mainly by the renewing of that as far as the Island's tourist industry sleepers. On the whole I would find nothing is concerned we cannot look at one particu- to disagree with in their report and I would lar item in isolation. It is true that we have hope that their recommendations would be the Tourist Trophy races, which is one of carried out. Then we come to the report the peak periods of our season; it is true of on the Nunnery bridge. A Government the Tourist Rally, we have aeroplane dis- department report estimates a repair bill of plays, we have this, that and the other, but £30,000, yet engineers consulted by the it is the whole mass of attraction that we Railway Company estimate the cost as are able to offer our visiting public that is £5,000. Mr. Jackson the consultant to the really going to count in the end. It can be Manx Electric Railway Board and an said that some people would say that we associate of Mr. Rostron, the Government have lost a lot of the attractions in recent inspector of railways, also estimates the cost years. It is true, one could point to this, that of repairs to be about £5,000. The question and the other, but I think we have reached of fencing arises. I have walked most of this a particular point in time when more and railway and travelled on it at least once a more people are attaching great importance week during last summer, and I consider to the Island as a tourist resort where there the present state of fencing to be in fairly are unique transport systems. At a time reasonable condition and any idea of re- when tourism is encountering a very strong fencing with concrete posts and wire to be competition from many, many sources, I feel an absolute waste of money. I made inquiries it would be definitely detrimental to our as to how many instances there were of tourist industry if the message was to go stock getting onto the railway this summer, forth at this particular time that the steam and the answer was about four or five times, railway was going to close down. Let us mostly young lambs in the earlier part of make no mistake about it, unless it is pur- the season, certainly no more than the chased by Government it will close down average for the past 100 years. 1 would and one more attraction that the Island has estimate an annual cost of about £5,000 been publicising on a very considerable scale to cover the maintenance of fencing and will be gone and, make no mistake about it, ditching. It is very gratifying to see that if it is gone at this stage it will be gone for passenger returns which are 14 per cent. up ever. I feel that we have to accept that on the 1974 figures, which is the last time whilst this is going to cost money, it is the railway ran from Douglas, and the money which is being spent in the interest revenue returns which are up no less than of our tourist industry. It is up to Tynwald 54 per cent. This is a moderate season as to say do they believe this money is being regards tourist arrivals. You will no doubt well spent as far as tourism is concerned. be told that the railway takes passengers off I would be interested to hear from some of the 'buses, in that the railway fare was £1.50 the members of the Tourist Board. (Inter- compared with the 'bus fare of £1 10, so ruption.) I am delighted to hear that we obviously some 80,000 were prepared to pay will be hearing because, as a member of the the extra just to travel by rail. I am con- Committee, 1 place great store on the value vinced that this figure could be increased in of this particular undertaking as part of our future years. tourist scene. It is very true, as was pointed out by the member for South Douglas, Mr. Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, as a Craine, that we have, to a certain extent. member of the Steering Committee, 1 think exceeded our terms of reference. We were I would like to take this opportunity in my asked by Tynwald to acquire those assets opening remarks in saying that in ap- that would be necessary to run a train proaching this problem the Committee's service from Douglas to Port Erin. In our thinking on the subject was very much very early stages we had no hesitation in coloured by the fact that we appreciated coming to the conclusion that to buy simply

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government- Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T81

part of Douglas station was altogether un- I do not wish to prejudice this issue. We acceptable and, in our view, we would not are asking you to leave it to us to come be getting the best value for money as far forward with further recommendations in as the public of the Isle of Man is con- the not-far-distant future on this very im- cerned. Right from the beginning we in- portant point. There we touch upon the formed the company that we wanted the problem raised by the hon. member for whole of Douglas railway station and all Douglas South, Mr. Craine, who suggested the other assets connected with it, and I that some of our figures were excessive with think it is well worthy of note that it is regard to the maintenance of bridges and gratifying to see that there has been a very the fencing. It well may be that will prove considerable uplift in the number of passen- to be the case, but we went to what we gers that have travelled from Douglas on believe to be competent authorities to the railway as compared with the last time furnish us with their costs for carrying out it was operated from this particular junction. certain works and they carried out those I was very impressed by the contribution exercises in the light of their professional made by my hon. friend, the Chairman of expertise and in the knowledge that they the Finance Board, because I think that he could be asked to do this particular work. is completely at fault in suggesting that we It was absolutely useless them putting for- are purchasing this without any clear idea ward figures that they would not be able to that we were going to operate it. Let there stand by if they were charged with the task be no doubt whatever about it, our job of repairing those bridges or carry out that was to negotiate with the Railway Com- fencing. if some controlling authority in the pany to acquire assets to enable us to run future decides that they can carry out this the system from Douglas to Port Erin, and work more economically, well then, so be that is our intention. I think the Chairman it. That is up to them, but the figures that was making the point that if at any time in we have put forward have been put forward the far-distant future this system was aban- by responsible people in the belief that these doned, then we would still have really are the genuine costs for carrying out worthwhile assets, that would represent certain works according to their standards. good value for money as far as Government When I talk of costs, I think I had better is concerned. I am quite certain that he will add that my Chairman, probably quite un- clarify that point, but for the time being I wittingly, omitted to mention that there will think that every member must appreciate be one little extra cost in addition to the that cur first recommendation is that we £250,000, it will not be a large one. It is should buy this system and operate it. concerned with certain consumable stores Operate it this coming season. This is the and stocks at their souvenir shops. It will main purpose of the exercise, but the safety he quite a modest sum, I should imagine net is there. If at any time, somewhere in under £5,000, but I think it is fair to tell the future, we do not operate this as a the Court at this stage, that there will be railway, then we have got really tangible this further item to be accounted for. As a • assets that will represent value for money. I member of the Committee, I can vouch for think it is very clear that the Committee the fact thai very hard bargaining was have accepted that it is not definite as to engaged upon in this particular direction. who will operate this particular system in The directors of the company pointed out the future. My Chairman has informed the that they were the guardians of the assets Court that in our report we have suggested of their shareholders and they had to fight that we will come back to Tynwald, perhaps as hard as they could to get full value for next month, and make suggestions as to money. We took the opportunity of pointing how this shall be operated. There are some out to them that we are guardians of the obvious lines of approach in this particular public purse and on behalf of Tynwald and direction. The Manx Electric Railway, I the people of the Island we, too, had to would imagine, is the number one favourite. drive as hard a bargain as we could. I think it is quite clear, sir, that if the Manx that at the end of the day we can look Electric Railway and the Isle of Man steam back on what I consider to be a quite railway is to be operated as one unit, con- satisfactory exercise where we have obtained siderable economies could be effected, but a very reasonable solution to a problem

• Steam Railway—Report of Steering Commitee Received; Purchase by Government— Approved. T82 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 directed to us by Tynwald. If I could con- lease of life, but we must have some clude by referring to the comments of my amenities left on this Island for our visitors hon. friend, Sir John Bolton, who mentioned to enjoy. I can see the Isle of Man steam the rocketing costs of the health services railway playing an increasingly important over the years, he referred to one of his part in those amenities as the years go by hon. colleagues of the past who stated that and it will become an increasingly more the fact that the cost of the health services important part as in the other parts of the would multiply "X" fold in the future, and British Isles this form of transport ceases very true, that has happened. It is quite to function. 1 wholeheartedly support this possible that the cost of running the railway resolution this morning. may escalate in the future, but I would put it to Sir John, I know the costs have Mr. Irving: I am delighted to see the lack escalated, but incomes have escalated. Who of opposition to this motion this morning. would put back the clock? Very few people We have had, I think, three hon. members would raise their hand and say let us go of the Court who started off, fired all their hack to what were called "the good old ammunition before they had even seen the days". 1 think on this particular occasion, whites of our eyes and now I gather the sir, particularly in relation to our tourist entire opposition has quit the field, and industry we have to look to the future. I this is most encouraging. Those this morning believe that in the recommendation that is who have opposed this motion have done before the Court at this present time that so apologetically and no-one more apolo- we are taking a step that will definitely be getically than the hon. member for Council, in the interest of the tourist trade and I Sir John Bolton. Mr. Speaker has said there believe in the long run will do no harm is a lack of enthusiasm for the purchase of to Government. the Isle of Man steam railway, in certain quarters of course. Let me assure Mr. Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I agree Speaker. sir, there is no lack of enthusiasm with the last speaker wholeheartedly when on the part of the Tourist Board to preserve he says that this issue should not be clouded this very worthwhile tourist attraction. In by general debate into all the transport. fact year after year in the month of July undertakings within the Isle of Man. The when we have to prepare our guides, Isle of Man steam railway will be a tourist whether Tynwald has agreed or not to run asset and an amenity to be enjoyed by them the railway in the following year, we put and the people of this Island. The tourist in- it in the guide, because we believe it really dustry I know is looking to this Government a worthwhile attraction to tourism in the to show its confidence in that industry. The Isle of Man. I would suggest that the tourist hon. member for Council, Mr. Nivison, industry in the Isle of Man at the moment yesterday said that to succeed this Island is in no state to jettison old and proven must he different and in that I whole- attractions for tourists. The hon. member heartedly agree with him. It will do us no for Rushen, Mr. Walker, has said some of use at all to be just caught in a stereotype the things that I wanted to say. What I of any English holiday resort. We have our wanted to say most of all was that the Isle scenery, but let us face facts, they have got of Man is in a reasonably prosperous state theirs, the Lake District, the Cotswolds and because it is different, because it is different. so on. When this hon. Court approves this If it were not different people would not resolution, and I believe it will, it will he leave the mainland to retire, work, come taking definite steps to halt the decline in on holiday. We see the main difference, of our tourist amenities and so in our tourist course, the most popularly discussed dif- trade. I am convinced that in the future, ference is that of taxation, but I would with the up-grading of our Island hotels remind hon. members that the tourist indus- and boarding-houses, the approval of resolu- try itself exists in its present state because tions, I hope, later on today, could well of the unique attractions of the Isle of Man. have the effect of reducing fares to the Isle attractions which we have been losing year of Man, the possible zero rating of our after year. Some of them in then elves do services industries and I firmly believe that not seem terribly important, but they are that is a correct thing for this Island to do. part of the cumulative attractions with our tourist industry can well have a new which we provide our tourists. I must say

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T83

that there is a wide-spread feeling in the of hon. members that they really can do tourist industry in this Island, and 1 do not something for the tourist industry and for say that this is correct, there is this wide- the pride of the Manx people themselves in spread feeling that the Government of the supporting this motion before us today. Isle of Man has turned its back on the tourist iidustry and is much more interested Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I in looking at other sectors of the economy. wholeheartedly. support this resolution. In (Interruptions.) 1 do not say this is true. I my opinion the steam railway must be saved. do not believe this is true, but I would like As the previous speaker has just said, our us today in one way to remove that eroneous tourist attractions are few enough and for impression of the attitude of the Manx more mundane, practical reasons there is Government to tourism. I think we have an this valuable real estate involved, roughly opportunity today to show all those thou- balancing the purchase. Whether we rejoice sands of people, and I am not just talking in having a nationalised 'bus company, or about those engaged in the hotel and guest- not, we have and they urgently need staff house industry, but thousands of people in accommodation and a maintenance depot. this Island who depend either directly or Where is there a better site than at the indirectly on the tourist industry, that we Douelas railway station? If we agree that are determined to promote this industry and that is the right site, would the price be not keep cutting back on the attractions we more attractive if that site were purchased offer in the Isle of Man. We hear a great in isolation? If our financial resources are deal about the cost of access to the Island. under a strain, would it be possible for this high fares — high fares by sea, high fares purchase price to be phased in say a period by air, deterring people from coming to the of five years? There is one point that I Isle of Man. Of course these fares have an would like clarification on from the hon. enormous effect on our tourist industry, but Chairman of the Steering Committee. The they are not the only thing that matters. resolution says amongst other things "and We have had for example, this May, for the fittings necessary to run a railway". A rail- first time ever, half-fare by sea, half-fare on way cannot be run without tools and stores. the boat for the first time this May and the so I hope that I am right in assuming that sea traffic went down by 40 ncr cent. I the purchase price includes these items. To agree there were alternatives attractions in me, Your Excellency, this is an opportunity. the terms of Jubilee celebrations and various an opportunity eventually to centralise and other things and movement of Tourist co-ordinate all forms of Island transport, Trophy dates and practice dates, there were with the possible exception of the horse- many reasons for this, but we must never trams and the donkeys. I would suggest that assume that the only deterrent to holidays if Tynwald agrees to this purchase that the in the Isle of Man is the cost of getting two railways should be paired off, as it were, here. It is important, but it is not the only and work in harmony and not in the thing and we cannot say that the cost of opposition that some of the hon. members access to the Island will go down in the seem to fear. Then I would like to think future, so what we must do is make the that within say a period of two years that Island so attractive that the cost of coming the 'bus company, the National Transport. here by sea and air is well worthwhile, and would be brought into the fold and in the ane of the ways of making it attractive, and meanwhile we should plan towards this end. it must be a series of ways, it must be a We could have centralised administrative series of attractions appealing, to all sorts headquarters and a centralised workshop and of people, and one of the best is the unique, in a small way provide these valuable ap- attractive mode of transport on the Island. prenticeships which we debated yesterday The horse-trams, the electric railway and and some sort of career structure in both the steam railway is an essential part of this administration and in engineering, so that unique and attractive mode of transport. I all our money would not be down the drain. know that no votes are going to change There would he some very real, worthwhile this morning because of what is said in this and tangible human benefits derived from Court. I am sure members decided yesterday it. 1 would suggest, Your Excellency, that how they were going to vote on this issue. this pairing off, as I call it, should be done T hope, sir, there is no doubt in the minds immediately. In my opinion I rather tend

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government-- Approved. T84 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 to think of these things as there is no minds long ago on this matter, and in fact immediate hurry providing we get on with those who are going to support this motion it now. I think this is very true of this today have said so over some considerable situation. If it is left until November or period of time. Personally, I am going to December to make this decision, it would support it and support it wholeheartedly. be January or February before the real There is only one item on the motion work starts and these are useless months Agenda, which I can find fault with, and for outdoor activities such as repairs and that is basically and members will be well renewals on the permanent way. I am as- aware of this — the idea of the 30-year bor- suming that this offer has been provisionally rowing period. Quite honestly, I think we accepted by the Railway Company, and in could pay for it a lot quicker than paying that case I feel that I would have welcomed for it over 30 years. It would cost us more, the recommendation from the Steering Com- but I am quite certain we should do it. We mittee as to which Government department. have a situation in item 20 on our Agenda would be given the responsibility for running — Purchase and repair and modification of the steam railway so that even now they houses, Buck's Road, Douglas has been can be making plans as to how to go about written off by us yesterday in a vote over this. I think here, as our learned friends a 15-year period. We have been told by the would say, time is the essence of the con- mover of the resolution this morning that tract. We cannot afford to wait until the what we are buying is not a railway, in fact turn of the year, the tourist season will he even Sir John Bolton agreed with him that upon us, and after all, this is why we are it was a fair valuation of real estate, run- buying it, to help towards our tourist season. down real estate, to some extent exactly the Whichever department is responsible, I would same commodity as what we dealt with suggest that they are the Government body from the Government Property Trustees in who should negotiate as regards staff, and item 20. They were prepared to write it off that is another important, and again I would over a I5-year period. If this is true, this say human, problem which we must hear in should be on exactly the same basis. That mind. It is the Steering Committee who would mean that your debt charges on page have negotiated the purchase, and I would 7, instead of being £27,000 would be actually suggest that they should not get themselves a figure of nearly £35,000 or something, involved in day-to-day administration. There putting up your deficit on the railway from have been occasions in the past where they £174,000 in the first year to somewhere in seem to have had difficulty in extricating the region, probably shall we say in round themselves from this sort of situation. I beg figures of £200,000 for the first year of to support. operation. That is exactly the sort of figure Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, listening which I have just seen bandied around, as have other members, exactly the same sort to the debate this morning I cannot help of figure which the Isle of Man Tourist thinking that all the emphasis has been laid Trophy races are going to cost us in the on a railway as a unique form of transport next year. As I said, that is a figure which and a great tourist attraction, and this I I have just seen bandied round in the paper. entirely support. But may I ask this question? I am not saying that it is right or wrong Has the Steering Committee ever considered either way. We have a situation there where another business side to this? We have in you are paying that out every year and not the south of the Island a cargo agency, and acquiring anything. So that the only fault a resolution which is later coming on our that I can find in the resolution is this Agenda may be the start of another cargo fault about the borrowing period. I have agency in Douglas. Could the railway, with considered — and I have been sitting here modifications be used for freightage all the listening to the debate considering as to year round apart from the tourist traffic whether or not I could move an amendment in the summer? to it. I have decided I will not, I will Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, the hon. support the resolution. member for East Douglas, Mr. Irving, said that most members probably made up their Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, it seems minds yesterday. I would like to suggest quite clear now this is going to be carried, that I think most members made up their this particular resolution, so it might he

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government— Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T85 beneficial for members to reflect for two led by my good colleague Sir John Bolton. minutes why we are all sitting here debating He had a first-class and able first lieutenant it. The history of the Railway Company, in the member for Douglas, Mr. J. M. Cain; when it originated, the idea was to make they seemed to be at opposite ends of the money which it did, but slowly over the Court today! (Laughter.) Nevertheless, years with the incoming of new forms of support entirely this resolution on the transport it became no longer a viable grounds of tourism. I do want to put in my proposition. We finish up at the end of the usual plea for tourism in these words. Your clay, either saying, pick up the tab, or let Tourist Board has a most difficult job to it go to the wall. This has been the history sell this Island. Never was it more true than of Tynwald for the last four or five years. this year. To try and sell the image of Man We have picked up the tab for several is highly difficult, it is complex. You know different functions, public functions, that the image of Bournemouth which is palm should have been carried out by private courts and peace, the Mediterranean, sort enterprise, but became no longer viable, so of bright sunshine and biliousness, Scotland. we picked up the tab. I hope that out of Scotch and the other things that go with this debate this morning that we can look it — what is the Isle of Man's image? to the future and try, if nothing else, to Difficult, in so much as the Tourist Board get the £250,000 worth of advice out of it, has to start selling extremely hard racing future advice; advice is that when things motor-cycles. They absolutely have to plug that belong to the public and are necessary this to the enth degree until the last motor- to this Island we do not come to a position cycle has left the Island, then they must kill where the axe is over our heads, and we it absolutely dead, because the next tourists have no alternative but to buy it. That is do not want to know about motor-cycles. So the lesson we have to learn this morning it goes on through the season, peak to peak for £+ million. This is the lesson that is with different events. Yet, what was the worth learning for this sort of thing. If we period when the Isle of Man was at its have to buy things let us buy them when greatest peak of success? Certainly we had it is economically viable to buy them. It motor-bikes going extremely slowly. Nine- is not nationalisation, is is safeguarding the teen-thirteen. I am told, was the greatest lifeblood of the Isle of Man. That is what year of tourism with 613,000 tourists on the we have got to do. I hope that when this Island. goes through, as 1 am sure it will this Mr. Irving: Staying half the time they morning, that the next time anything comes do now. up on the Agenda where we are putting Mr. Quayle: Yes. Agreed, agreed, but money into it, we arc giving the Railway nevertheless the heads were here. They Company £50,000, £60,000 a year, each year, amused themselves travelling on our rail- knowing very well that at the end of the ways, travelling on the old tramways. day we are going to have to buy it, it could looking at old water-wheels, going on old not go on for ever, the same with the 'buses, tramcars, going to Gaiety Theatres which there are two or three other items that thank goodness we have kept, and all built involve the Isle of Man and the Manx into a leisure atmosphere of singing and people that we have to look at now and swinging along the front of Douglas. This decide to do something about it now, and then, surely, is the image of Man. The not wait until they say, listen, lads, if you image is, this is a place to relax, this is a do not take it off our hands we will go to place of nostalgia, this is a place of taking the wall and you will have no transport your time, and that must be our future system. I think that El million is well worth image as I see it. In this context old rail- the money we are spending to learn a hard ways, old wheels. old tramcars, old theatres lesson. fit to perfection. Mr. Quayle: Your Excellency, it is almost Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, just one exactly 20 years ago to the month, in fact, point, a very brief point. I think this is an since Tynwald actually discussed the pur- important one. I think, as we have all heard, chasing of the railway, or actually came to the accounts before us today — and we the point on purchasing the railway. At that realise the gravity of them and what is time, not unexpectedly, the opposition was happening in the future— but I would have

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government— Approved. T86 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

thought today that we look at who is Isle of Man. He gave us this morning all going to benefit the most, and although in- the virtues of the traditional asset-stripper. directly we will all get a benefit out of this Asset-stripping, you know, has short-term objective, I am sure we will and tourism as advantages, and can and are popular because well, the people who are going to benefit it releases money that you have got and mainly out of this are the people from the you have it there. But— and it is a very big south. 1 would have thought my good col- "but" — long term people — the self-same leagues in the south would have been here people who will applaud it — will suddenly with both hands raised today because I begin to realise that what have they got? do know that Port Erin has been a real The money goes and what are they left booming little village with the trade and with? Nothing. I believe that the Island is transport of this railway; it has really made not up for sale. If I can repeat something the south a very pleasant and profitable that was said yesterday, if the General place to be in. I would like this lesson to go Election last year said anything at all it said home, I think to the people in the south, just that, the Island was not up for sale and that now the future of the railway line is it had to stop. I know, really and truly, as not — it is for the whole of the Isle of Man my colleagues have already said, most but it will be in there most of all. I think people have got their minds made up already they should be made aware of this fact and on this subject. Just one little point that I they should do all they can to preserve this. would like to concentrate on. Little — £5,000 was raised by my good friend Mr. Kerruish Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, 1 rise, of about small items. I am rather concerned course, to support it not from a parochial that £5,000 worth, you know. I expected point of view, strange as it may seem. I an awful lot, a good pile-up of small items am delighted to have heard Mr. Quayle, for £5,000. I would like the Chairman to member of the Council, say about the Isle give me a little bit more detail of that. of Man selling our image because that is Thank you. a very difficult thing, as I have found as a very new member of the Tourist Board. Mr. Watterson: Your Excellency, I think My theme has been throughout that we sell we are probably getting to the end of this the Isle of Man, it is our style of living, it matter now. 1 am a member of the Steering is the pace of life, it is the character of the Committee and have been on occasions in place. What makes us different are the very the slightly schizophrenic situation of being things that Mr. Quayle enumerated. It may on the Manx Electric Railway Board at the not he very popular in some financial circle: same time. As far as this railway is con- to be told that the pace of life — how do cerned, to put it into simple business terms you quantify in pounds and pence? I almost if you wish, it is a good buy at this price. said shillings and pence, that is dating me! There is a lot of the railway, more than just The point being that really and truly we the assets that you are buying. In other have got to decide as a nation, as Dr. Mann quarters that I am in, I meet people from has so rightly said, do we require to hold different parts of the world occasionally, on to certain what I would call national and the Isle of Man is known not for many treasures. Again, I listened to Sir John of the things that we would hope it is Bolton, who I always listen to with great known for, but for some of our assets. They respect, but there has been one thing that ask me occasionally are we still running I have noticed in the very short time that these railways, are you still keeping the I have been here, Sir John on any matter things that all the other countries are relating to transport of any description is destroying? Well, let us hope today that that consistent. It is like a record being played is the case. The railway itself and the cost over and over, and over again; it really is of running it is only part of the whole remarkably consistent. I think Sir John picture here. What I am concerned about is would be really well advised if he looks into that the railway should be bought, and that the animal kingdom he will find that animals after having bought it it is run correctly. who do not change and adapt to prevailing I said yesterday that I considered that so conditions become extinct. (Laughter.) I frequently things are passed on from one would hate to think that people of Sir Tynwald to another where one inherits John's outlook would become extinct on the problems. This is our opportunity this time

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government Approved TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T87

to buy something that is worth having, that month, or whenever the Chairman comes is of value to the Manx nation, and then to along, the future re-organisation of the rail- run it properly, to set it up properly. The ways via the amalgamation of both the questions have been asked about who is steam railway and the electric railway, that going to run it, and the decisions should be when in fact we provide one single entity made fairly fast. 1 think that in most to run our transport system, the costs, the people's minds in this Court there is an cost in labour, the cost in materials, the obvious solution to how this particular rail- cost in man-power can be certainly reduced. way should be run. There is no point in I am sure that in this way the deficit — and asking any particular people to take over I suppose there will always be a deficit - something if you do not give them the tools can be cut to the minimum. I support this to take it over and run it properly. This is particular resolution. why, although I would have liked to have seen a decision about the management at Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, if I might this Court as well, I did agree at the Steering reply to the query on the amount in addition Committee that it should be delayed for to the £250,000 firstly. During the negotia- another month so that this Court could be tions it was stated by the company that presented with a system of running the rail- there were certain consumable goods that way which gave it a chance to be run cor- were outside this £250,000, and included in rectly and not to have, as has so frequently these consumable goods were such things happened in the days of the Manx Electric as coal and oil and furniture, certain re- Railway, criticisms pointed at it for things movable furniture in offices and so forth, that have happened which are frequently which is quite understandable. The hon. not the railway's fault or the previous member for Rushen particularly asked for management's fault. If this railway is going this, I think. We were particularly anxious to be bought — and I do believe that it now that we should come to an agreement, and will be — then we must make sure we are finally, after a lot of negotiation, we came running it properly. Just a little matter of to an agrement that £1,000 was a fair price interest. I do believe, yes, that all but the for these consumable articles — such things consumable supplies will be coming in the as removable furniture, certain coal, oil, et figure. The second thing is as well that the cetera, and things of this kind — but in figure that was mentioned, as far as the addition to that there is the contents of the £5,000 was concerned, does include a certain novelty shop with books and novelties and amount of saleable stock by way of things of that kind. They will be taken at souvenirs, et cetera. valuation, at the wholesale valuation. That is not part of the railway. This was some- Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, one of the thing that we readily agreed that we should advantages 1 suppose of coming at the end — or rather, whoever is running it should is that all the merits and de-merits of the acquire. That is what it is, it is £1,000 for case have been put in advance, and that these things like coal and oil and furniture there is often only a little to add, but I must associated with the office and so forth, and say that I support this resolution in two certain other items at valuation which could ways. I believe that at £1 million, if in fact well come to something less than — I do not we wish to sell the railways next year, we think it will be £5,000, something less than will get that back. I am not certainly voting £5,000, that is the explanation. The hon. for the purchase to sell it again, 1 am member for Michael, Mr. Radcliffe, asked voting for the purchase of the railway, to about spares and things of this kind. These run the railway in the years ahead. It may are included within the overall deal, that be that the deficit running according to the such things as the spares, springs, and report of £122,000 a year is high, but 1 do wheels, and all the rest of it, this is part of not think we can take that figure in the deal. I would say I am very grateful to isolation, it is part of the costs that we many members who supported the general have to incur to provide the tourist indus- resolution. There was general support with try and the benefits that come to the the exception of one or two. Certain sup- economy from the tourist industry to the port was qualified. I would say, first of all, Isle of Man. 1 think this is the whole to the hon. member, the Chairman of the essence here of the contract. I feel that next Finance Board, I greatly regret if he got

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Comm.ttee Received; Purchase by Government— Approved. T88 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 the opinion that we were going to buy this cidentally, if this was not available, for without the intention of running it. We have example, to the National 'Bus Company, have every intention, we do recommend they would have to get some other place that Tynwald buys the railway and that it because the present premises are only on should be run. I want to make that abun- lease. dantly clear. I merely said that if it was not Mr. Irving: It will be purchased with the to be run, that the value is still there in railway? what we are paying. It is the intention to run it. I feel sure that the directors, when Mr. Nivison: Well, this is an adjustment they were negotiating with us, if we had that can be done in conjuction with the said that we are not intending to run it, we Treasury; it is a matter of which pocket it are intending to scrap it, we could not have comes out of. Sir John did pose the question, come to a deal like this. I must say, full who wants a railway? It is our information marks to the directors of the company: they that the vast majority of the people of the wish that we should continue to run, and Isle of Man want this railway retaining if it they are somewhat concerned, too, about is economically possible. This is what we the future of the staff. They have constantly were thinking of. All along in our negotia- said to us, we are concerned about the staff tions we never had any doubt in our minds who have been with us for some years. We that the people wanted the railway but it have said, and we agree with this —here was a question of how much. We believe again, the hon. member for Michael, Mr. we have been very successful in getting it John Radcliffe — that it should be not the at a reasonable figure. We thank the Speaker Steering Committee, they will not get in- for the support; we have never had any volved in the staff, we thought it was not doubt. He poses a very interesting suggestion our business, but it is the new authority that it could be immediately re-sold. This is who will be running it which will be con- quite a suggestion, it works in many places ducting who they shall employ. We also where people are invited to take £5 shares, pledge ourselves that once this vote is and there are a lot of people who fight with passed it shall be done very quickly indeed, one another in certain parts of the United so that decisions can be arrived at. Mr. Kingdom as to who is going to drive the Anderson, the hon. member for Glenfaba, train next Sunday, the volunteers and so did ask a question about gatehouses. I forth. It may well be run on these kind of would say to him, in reply, even if only for lines. I am very grateful to the Speaker for the record, that as far as the gatehouses are his support. It is good value, not only from concerned on the route, we are acquiring the assets point of view, but for the fact the gatehouses as listed, the Ballawoods that we will have this unique railway. As cottage, the gatehouse at the Level, Colby, the hon. member for Gartf, Dr. Mann, said Port Soderick station, Santo') station, Castle- —and we are most grateful for his contri- town, Colby, Ballagawne, Port St. Mary bution — it is a national asset, he said, and station, et cetera, and only those that were it will ensure its future as remaining a not operational — if any have been sold national asset, the fact that a railway, a they were not associated with the operating unique steam railway is to be run. The hon. of the railway, the ones that we are pur- member for West Douglas, Mr. Kermeen, chasing, those that are used for the opera- seemed to think when he made the reference tion of the railway, and they are clearly to the transport in general, I did make it listed in the inventory that was taken down. clear that we were discussing the purchase So there is no question that we are getting today; we will have an opportunity. I think, because this is what the Steering Committee the gatehouses that are necessary from an are primarily charged with, looking at the operational point of view. The hon. mem- whole transport system of the Island. 1 do ber for Council, Sir John Bolton, did make take his point that many people found it some reference to the station and purchasing was perhaps more convenient to take a taxi, this great area of land. It is true that when apart from paying the bill. We heard of we were thinking about it. we had other some people who, if they had to go any thoughts in our minds as to whether it distance to Ballasalla for example. were should be marshalling yards. We had in our charged £7 to go to Ballasalla in a taxi as minds that it would be very useful. in- compared with the 'bus. For short distances

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government— Approved. TYNWALD COURT. OCTOBER 19. 1977 T89

1. think the small, four-wheeled taxi would you are going in for new locomotives you probably beat the 'buses many a time. We would probably have to get new lines too, did have the "Going for a Song". I did not and it is true to say that these people know whether to take that as a compliment probably are in this business. It is only the that we were getting the railway rather people in the business who know anything cheaply, or whether we were paying "through about it. The implication — forgive me men- the nose", and he made reference to tioning it — but 1 think that could have been "Brother, can you spare a dime". We will left outside. I am grateful to Mr. Kerruish, be coming, or somebody will be coming to of the Council, for his support, and as a the Finance Board for the odd dime in order tourist attraction, he stressed that point. Mr. to run this very necessary railway. I would Walker, of Rushen, did also support, and say that as far as Mr. Craine is concerned, he did make a reference, a kindly reference, the hon. member for South Douglas, he has to the fact that 1 mentioned yesterday, that an undoubted knowledge of the railway, and we should keep the Island different, and so forth. I was rather disappointed, though, this is a means of doing it. The Chairman Mr. Craine, I must confess, that during your of the Tourist Board too, we are grateful very excellent contribution of support, you for the support of the Chairman of the did make reference to a report which you Tourist Board, and 1 would endorse that the evidently had in confidence from someone, Tourist Board have always each year put and you did imply— I thought that was a forward the railway as an attraction to the shame, you spoiled a very good contribution Island, one of the many attractions. If we — you did imply that the person who had take one after the other out we lose its made the report was also a supplier of the attraction. Incidentally, the Flying Scotsman materials which were perhaps recommended. Enterprises are consultants, and they will 1 think that is rather unkind because the act on behalf of clients on purchasing of man who made the report, Mr. Devitt, did railway materials, but do not trade them- say, "regarding the replacement of loco- selves. So in fairness to that man who gave motives ..." — you quoted from page 4 — that report, he is a consultant. He would and he is not recommending it. He said: "In recommend where you could get it, but he the event of you going in for new loco- does not sell the stuff himself. We must be motives ..." which is not saying we should clear on this. I did answer my friend, Mr. do. In the event of you going in for new John Radcliffe from Michael, about the locomotives you should go in a different fittings, I think, and the possibility of using type which would cost £30,000 to £45,000 it for a 'bus depot, and the urgency, there each. If ycu were doing that, he said, if is a lot of urgency. As far as Mrs. Hanson that was the course of action that was is concerned, the hon. member for West contemplated it might be more economical Douglas, we have not gone into this, but to give consideration to the disposal of the this is something which the new authority 3 feet guage locomotives, and you might could go into, the possibility of using it then go in for the 4 feet 84; inch guage. more and more for freight. It could well That was just an observation. be that as the years go by that this might be a very suitable way of carrying heavy Mr. Craine: is it not true that the Flying goods from one place to another, and I am Scotsman Enterprises are in business to sure they will go into that. On the question supply this kind of material? of the borrowing which the hon. member Mr. Nivison: I think the implication that for Rushen, Mr. Cringle, asked about, this this man, who was giving a report on this, is really a matter for the Treasury. That it is not true to say that he was kind of part of the resolution is not part of our giving a report with the hope that he might particular recommendations, but in all get some business out of it. That is the only recommendations involving money it is part that I am taking you up on, Mr. invariably the Treasury that do sort that Craine. I thought that was rather unfair to out. We could perhaps discuss that on some a man who had given a report, and in one other occasion when the actual setting-up part he said that if you are going in for of the authority is done. It may well be new locomotives—which he does not recom- beneficial to reduce the term, but it would mend — he said you want to keep these increase the deficiency each year and it old locomotives going, this part of it — if might be a case of swings and roundabouts,

Steam Railway—Report of Steering Committee Received; Purchase by Government— Approved. T90 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

1 am not too sure about that. We are also Mr. Anderson: The only thing I wondered grateful for Mr. Quayle, of the Council, was whether members have had the oppor- Mr. Delaney, Mr. Quirk, Mr. Lowey, they tunity to read the paper through. I hope it are all helping. 1 did answer Mr. Lowey I. does clear up some of the points that have think on the question of the novelties, and been raised by hon. members. The difficulty Mr. Swales, from Ramsey, too, I thank him is that until, of course, the new police very much for his support. I am sure that headquarters is built where the whole lot most things associated with this have been will be co-ordinated from, there will not be mentioned, and I want to emphasise the fact a completely co-ordinated system, but there that it does appear as if the railway is coming is a very, very close liaison, and the Com- more and more into its own. I am grateful mittee have met twice that is co-ordinating; to Mr. Craine, too, about the little item that I am not on that Committee. There is no 1 did mention about the additional people doubt at all that in the event of a national that were riding on the trains, some 80,000 emergency there would be the quickest journeys were taken this summer, and it possible action taken. The main thing is may well be that it is on the up-and-up, let that I would point out in paragraph 5 of us hope so. I move the resolution standing the second page of this, we have had on in my name. all these occasions the good offices of the The Governor: 1 will put the question, Home Office. Three times the officer for hon. members. Those in favour please say the Home Office has been on the Island to aye; those against, no. advise us on this, and they have said in no uncertain manner that it is absolutely A division was called for and voting essential for the fire services to have their resulted as follows:– - own system. You can imagine the situation In the Keys— if a fire is, shall we say, in Glen Maye, which For: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, J. J. is one of the black spots, it is essential that Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Dr. Mann, they can keep in touch with the head- Messrs. Catlin, Watterson, Lowey, quarters. At the present time they cannot Walker, Cringle, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. do that. It is absolutely essential that they Moore, Ward, Craine, Delaney, Irving, have not to go through a third party, they Mrs. Hanson, Messrs. MacDonald, are completely in control. The only other Christian, Swales and the Speaker 21. thing I would point out to the hon. Court — that if we decide today for some reason Against: Messrs. P. Radcliffe and Kermeen or other not to order this, we will have 2. to telephone immediately and cancel our The Speaker: Your Excellency, the re- option that they hold it for us, we will have solution carries in the House of Keys, 21 to cancel it. It will then be subject to 15 votes being cast in favour and two votes per cent. plus increase that actually has against. taken place since we have taken the option In the Council— on it. We must do that today, otherwise we will be landed with something that Tynwald For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Quayle, will not have approved, and we will be Crellin, Nivison, Kerruish and Sim- subject to the 15 per cent. increase that will cocks — 6. have taken place. Against: Sir John Bolton — I. Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, whilst The Governor: In the Council, six in I will accept what the Board have got to do favour and one against. The resolution — unfortunately, I was away when they had therefore carries. this meeting, and I accept that they have ordered this stuff. This still does not answer FIRE SERVICES COMMUNICATIONS what is my worry. We agreed this a long — DEBATE CONCLUDED AND time ago, there must be in the Isle of Man PURCHASE APPROVED. an overall central emergency control centre, properly organised. It is no good saying The Governor: The paper has now been everybody can go-it-alone, this is what was circulated on item 17. Do you wish to take happening. I can remember now why this this now? came up, because on my Board we had our

Fire Services Communications—Debate Concluded and Purchase Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T91 engineer asking for radio sets to parade co-operation of wireless and communica- about the Island. I said to him at the time, tions in the various services. As Chairman he said, oh, but everybody else has got it. of the recently constituted Committee, They have all got it, and they are all under the Civil Aid (Planning) Act, it may working on their own, unco-ordinated, be of assistance to the Court to refer to operating themselves. The cost of doing this our duties or terms of reference, whatever on any raido network is prohibitive. There you may call them, in this context. Ob- is nothing to stop the fire services running viously it would be the aim that there their own place, playing about with their would be an overall control, but the terms own set-up, but there must be built into of reference of our Committee, at the the police set-up eventually a central control moment, is to make advanced plans for the headquarters. Everything, I say everything, control, co-ordination, administration in the must be controlled from that headquarters case of an emergency of the Civil Aid operation centre. If you do not do this they Services in the Isle of Man. That is to say are going to have — I have just jotted them the Isle of Man Constabulary and the Isle down — we have got lifeboat services, Royal of Man Special Constabulary, the Civil Observer Corps, hospital services, police, Defence forces and services, the fire services, fire and coastguards, to name but a few, the ambulance services, the transport ser- and every Board of Tynwald working today vices, hospital and general medical and running around with radio gear. In an public health services, school meals and emergency — and it happened at Summer- water, gas and electricity undertakings. land — things had to be brought out, and in Although we have but recently begun our the end we were on the telephones. I know task, in our consideration of emergency my own Board had to drag cranes and plans and dovetailing those things into an equipment over from the Tongue area, but overall master plan, an essential element this all had to be done by men dashing to which we shall be paying particular round in cars, getting on telephones that attention, and I say this just to help the were not working, and so there must be an memorandum which has just been put in overall command system. I know that any front of us, will be the co-ordination of person here who served in the Forces will the inter-services communication in every realise this; if you do not get this you will field. I hope that we can do this and I get real chaos in a big emergency. What I thought that it might be of some assistance must have is a definite guarantee on — this to the Court if we were to refer again to Committee that was set up to look at the what our duties are. overall situation, I think must come forward Mr. Moore: I think we all hope we can fairly soon because I would hate to have do this, Your Excellency, but in the mean- a boat down at Victoria Pier on fire, and while can the Local Government Board get no co-ordinated system of control so some- on with their job of ordering this equipment body can say, one person at a time, stop or for which they had authority under the go, otherwise everybody is dabbling and that Estimates of this year. This business of cc- is where chaos ensues. ordination is a matter which has been dis- Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I wonder cussed by a Committee but it will not alter if I could just ask for a little clarification the fact that we must have the equipment. on the second page where it is said "there The Governor: Well, this is the question will be a need for a controller to channel before the Court. conflicting calls, determine priorities and The Speaker: Your Excellency, I am sure reserve security" — one controller. Can you we are all indebted to the Chairman of the give us any idea who that controller will Local Government Board for his fairness to be? Will it be, in fact, the Chief Constable? the Court in placing a memorandum before us this morning. I only regret that this Mr. Anderson: There would be, it says, memorandum confirms my fears, expressed there would be in the event . . . yesterday, rather than diminishes them, be- Mr. Ward: Your Excellency, this proposi- cause here you have a clear example of a tion by the Local Government Board for Board who are positively "going it alone". the fire services has obviously sparked off a One appreciates the Board's position and lot of anxiety, or interest certainly, in the the Board's responsibilities and no words

Fire Services Communications--Debate Concluded and Purchase Approved. T92 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19 1977

of mine would tend to diminish my respect point cf view effectively, if we do not bring for those. 1 would re-emphasise, Your Ex- in the expertise I think of the Broadcasting cellency, that we have a Broadcasting Commission here and work in co-ordination Commission and they have authorities which and get an overall pattern. Your Excellency. are much wider than purely running a radio I would move this morning that this matter station. I would have thought here that the be referred to the Broadcasting Commission points that have been made by my hon. to co-operate with all the parties involved colleague, Mr. Ward, for instance, are points and report as to whether this is a system, that could have been discussed on a broader and indeed it can be clone by next month, base, along with the Broadcasting Com- this is a system that is acceptable and can mission, in a view to advancing them and I be worked into the overall control. So with- hope still will be. We are aware now that out labouring the point, I would move that, Civil Aid are progressing this matter, that Your Excellency, and in moving it I would indeed the police are obviously progressing say this —I am not impressed by the argu- the matter, that the Local Government ment that if you do it today the costs will Board are progressing the matter, hospital escalate tomorrow. services are progressing the matter, the coastguards are progressing the matter; in- Mr. Anderson: We have got to cancel it deed Mr. MacDonald's Harbour Board are today. progressing the matter, each and everyone The Speaker: I am not impressed at all, of them individually and there are going to Your Excellency. I voted for £150,000 for be controllers for, let us ensure, the positive Ramsey swimming pool on the basis of such application of the service, controllers for a proposition and it was to be done this each of the departments concerned, sub- summer it has not been touched. stitutes for those controllers during times of holiday and so on and frankly 1 am Mr. Watterson: Your Excellency, I would mesmerised by the situation that is suddenly support that amendment. There is a point, apparent, one of total confusion, total con- I did some homework last night, after we fusion with no implementation whatever of had been in here, on telecommunications in the laid-down Government policy which, let the Isle of Man within the limited period us admit, it has been forgotten over the of time that was available to me and I find years. It was very clear-cut as the hon. that the general professional opinion of the member of the Council expressed it yester- system in the Isle of Man is not one which day, Mr. Crellin, and so today we are asked is very complimentary, the reason being that to support this vote. Quite frankly I cannot it is piecemeal. I dod not know if any of at this moment support this vote. The black you have been to the top of Snaefell and spots are black spots shared not only by the had a look at the "Emmetts statue" that is fire services, they are shared by ambulance built up there, at the aerial and antennae services ... available for telecommunications. It was described to me as trying to patch a leaking Mr. Anderson: But the ambulance is on hot-water bottle with sticking plasters. The the move, it is a different thing entirely problem really is this that we have here, from the fire services. and this report mentions it, an aerial or an The Speaker: They are black spots that aerial site in Bride, we have also Manx are shared by ambulance services, they are Radio's property being used by the police, black spots shared by police services and I we have Independent Broadcasting Associa- would have hoped that we would have tion masts sprouting around the Island for evolved a mechanism which would have television work, which incidentally through- given the Island complete coverage for out the United Kingdom are permitted to every service. To me they all have real be used by this sort of operation. Indeed importance and I do not wish to stand in they are placed in strategic positions to the way of an efficient fire service, heaven give the best coverage anyway and they forbid, nor do I wish to stand in the way put a great deal of effort and care into of an efficient police service, or an efficient choosing their sites for these masts. This hospital service, but it is not going to be is not entirely the fault of the people achieved from the taxpayers' point of view who are looking after the telecommunica- effectively, or indeed from an administrative tions in the Isle of Man. The fault lies in

Fire Services Communications—Debate Concluded and Purchase Approved. I'YNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T93 the fact that they are not given any long- been entered into the Estimates, we do two term plan or policy but keep being asked things, we provide electronic equipment for to add something on, so this is why we get the call out of firemen to the fire station these strange things sprouting up all over on receipt of a call, and irrespective of all the place which, to say the least, their the argument that has gone on, this situa- performances from time to time are les: tion still exists. We will have an electronic than efficient for the very reason they call out system for firemen to attend the have not been planned on the long term. I fire station as quickly as possible. We are do appreciate the point that you are making not relying on people knocking people up about needing these facilities and services or ringing telephones or setting off sirens, and also, and I can relate to Manx Radio we are having an automatic call out system here for a moment, the cost of equipment, and this is integral to the fire service. It has electronic equipment, if you do not order it nothing to do with any other service and a now and you leave it a little while does large proportion of this money is spent on escalate. This is very true. that system. Until that system is installed Mr. Anderson: It is not that. This is we cannot move the existing radio equip- actually an order placed prospectively and ment, because it does not link in with the it will have to be cancelled today . . . existing radio equipment. We are charged further to make sure that there is an Mr. Watterson: And if you re-order the efficient communication system between the price will have gone up. fire headquarters and the other brigades Mr. Anderson: It has already gone up 15 throughout the Island. We have done al- per cent. ready what has been suggested, maybe stuck Mr. Watterson: Yes, that is what I mean, together with pieces of sticking-plaster, but your ordered it before the price went up, we are sharing masts with other authorities but what I am getting at here is that as I to overcome the black spots. We are not can understand this, there is a need to co- charged, as a Fire Services Committee, to ordinate it. This has nothing to do with the organise the communications for the whole co-ordination between the police . . . Island. This is the job of our hon. friend, Mr. Ward, and his Committee, but there Mr. Anderson: No. It can still he co- exists, at this moment, a clearly laid clown ordinated. system of responsibility to any emergency Mr. Watterson: The police and the fire-- and any suggestion that there will be utter I am not talking about the internal co- confusion is wrong, very wrong and is ordination which could save a lot of capital doing a public dis-service. There is a care- and I would suggest that it would be wise, fully laid down order of priority and com- because the 15 per cent. that you may save mand between the services and the moment by ordering this now could, in fact, waste the chief police officer arrives on the scene 115 per cent. or 315 per cent. by duplica- he legally takes charge of all operations. tion of services. 1 would, therefore, be The fire officer is in charge until the senior extremely grateful if Tynwald would allow police officer arrives. The senior police this matter another month and my col- officer is charged with public order and he leagues on the Commission are all agreed takes command. He will then work with the that we will attempt to report back to you fire officer on the site and other services with at least an interim report giving you would join in subsequently. At this moment a truer picture of the situation by the next there is this laid down priority of dealing sitting of Tynwald. with emergencies and 1 think we must state this to the public good. Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, as Vice- Chairman of the Fire Services Committee, Mr. Moore: I only wanted to repeat, I must answer some of the allegations. Your Excellency, the fact that we are now Firstly, on the Fire Services Committee we dealing with something which is happening are charged with the duty of producing an in the new fire station. This is the equipment efficient fire service. Secondly, in doing that, which was recommended by the Home we carried out an investigation which was Office for installation in the new fire station. necessary to produce the equipment. With We have completed phase A of the com- the sum of money involved that has already munications on that fire station and are now

Fire Services Communications—Debate Concluded and Purchase Approved. T94 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 proceeding to phase B of the communica- decided that this was so and because of tions. We fully agree with every effort certain delays that have come about, the which is made to co-ordinate all of the station was ready possibly, we were very systems in the Isle of Man. In fact, if you pleased to say the station was ready at the read the report that you have got in front time it was supposed to be ready. The of you, you will find that we have already, equipment was not procured at that time. It in the Local Government Board, taken ad- is now ready and, for heaven's sake, let us vantage of the fact that the Electricity get the job done and let us follow the points Board already have two masts at the Mull made by Mr. Speaker that in the near future and the other place that was mentioned and the people in charge of these departments that we locked into that particular system - - and I honestly think that many a time we, and this is all that we were doing. We were as politicians, think we are the experts in going along with what is required in the everything— we appoint men to do jobs. new fire headquarters. If there is any ques- We pay them high salaries to do it, they are tion of co-ordination you would have the fully qualified to do it and I hope that in fullest support of the Local Government future the Chairmen of the Police Board, Board, there is no question about it, but the the Fire Services Committee, the Civil holding up of the ordering of equipment Defence Commission, will get their heads of which we are now putting into this station departments all together and come forward and for which the station is fitted, 1 just with the answer we are all hoping we will cannot see what they are aiming at and it is get. To me it is very important today that one of our own Board members who raised we get on with this job because it has been this matter in the first position, as if it was delayed long enough. something which had come out of the blue. We have been discussing this now ever since Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, when we started the new fire station. this whole thing started 17 years ago it was very much my pigeon at that time. I appre- Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, very ciated that the idea of complete integration briefly, as I think I am the only member of was not on, even in those early days. The this hon. Court who was on the previous significant thing, I think, about this is that Fire Committee, and at that time, as the Home Office have advised a separate Chairman of the Fire Committee, under system. We, fortunately, have not had the Mr. Hislop, I though I had assured the emergencies that they have had in England, Court yesterday and 1 can assure them again but the proof of this pudding is in the this morning that it is of vital importance eating. The Home Office have got a very that we get this resolution through today. efficient service of co-ordination and, for Somebody said yesterday, "1 am surprised to once, I think we should take them as our find now we have got a new fire station but example and carry out the policy which the we have not got the equipment for it." Chairman of the Local Government Board These negotiations have been going on for has certainly explained to my satisfaction. the past two years and not only in consul- I would say that the resolution should be tation between the head of the police de- passed without any more delay. partment in the Isle of Man and the head of the Civil Service Commission, the Chief Members: Hear, hear. Fire Officer, but with advice from the Home Office as to what is the important type of Mr. Watterson: Your Excellency, on a equipment to put in this fire station. It was point of order, please? All during my only because at that time we were not our- remarks on this 1 was not making one com- selves convinced that all the equipment had ment at all about the efficiency of the been fully tested at that time, this is two services, that was unquestioned, which the years ago, that it was not already there to hon. member for Garff seemed to think, and put in the fire station when the fire station likewise nobody is even questioning the itself was completed. We wanted to be sure Home Office's instruction that there should in ourselves with all the advice that we be separate facilities for each who will have could possibly get at the highest level that their own control over it. What I am trying what we were getting was the perfect thing to point out is that there is, not the internal, for the fire services to have. It was finally inside the various buildings, that is not

Fire Services Communications--Debate Concluded and Purchase Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T95

where the problem lies, it is in the distribu- and iron out a system in the course of the tion of the signal once it goes outside the next six months, if you like, and . . . building and we are advocating, as I . . . Mr. MacDonald: To cover the whole of The Governor: With respect, sir, this is the Isle of Man. hardly a point of order. Would you like to The Speaker: Yes, indeed, to cover the reply, Mr. Anderson? whole Island. In that respect, Your Excel- Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, 1 think lency, l am quite happy to withdraw, if my it is of the utmost importance to just under- seconder would so agree. line one or two things here this morning The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. and I am absolutely against this being post- members? poned. I think it is important to say -- we had a very early meeting of the Fire Ser- It was agreed. vices, we had the chief in this morning. In The Governor: I will put the question fact he was in a department where it was then as it stands on the Agenda. Is that being channelled through the police and agreed? then through to him, but a policeman in- It was agreed. advertently forgot to put the switch down and the messages were not going through The Governor: Would members agree and it caused the disaster that has made the that this would be a convenient moment to Home Office so adamant that the fire adjourn until half-past-two? services ought to have a direct communica- It was agreed. tion and not through anybody else. This is of the utmost importance. The other thing, The Court adjourned for lunch. if it is decided today, and for some reason or other somebody thinks that this should be altered, let us not forget that in March INDIGENOUS POWER SOURCES this year we agreed in here that the first — REPORT RECEIVED; phase was complete. Are we going to scrap CONSULTANTS ENGAGED; the money we have already spent? This is LOAN FOR BLOCK EARY HYDRO- what it amounts to. ELECTRIC SCHEME APPROVED. Mr. MacDonald: No. The Governer: Item number 22. I call on Mr. Anderson: Well, this is what it the hon. Mr. Speaker. amounts to. I do not want to turn on my The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to hon. colleague, who sits on the Board with move:— me, who gets the minutes of what has (1) That the Interim Report of the Select happened, who sat in this Court with us Committee on Indigenous Power Sources he when we agreed previously to go forward received. with this first phase earlier this year. (2) That Consultants be engaged, in ac- • Mr. MacDonald: I was told it would be cordance with the Tynwald Resolution of co-ordinated and you do not know what you 7th July 1977, to carry out a geological are talking about, you know . . . survey and energy appreciation of the Island. Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I do not (3) That Tynwald is of the opinion that— want to get into an argument with my hon. (a) An interest-free loan of the total capital colleague. I trust that the hon. Court will cost of the Block Eary Hydro-Electric Scheme be made to the Isle of Man have the good judgment to approve. Electricity Board, such loan to be repaid The Speaker: Your Excellency, I rise on in ten equal, annual instalments, the a point of order, or perhaps an explanation first such instalment to be repaid one or perhaps a clarification, it is this—I year from the date of the completion of the scheme. would be prepared to withdraw my amend- ment if, in fact, there was an assurance — I (h) The Local Government Board urgently consider the introduction of grants of am sure this is readily forthcoming — that 50 per cent. of the capital cost. up to all the departments who are affected by a maximum of £400, of the installation wireless communication will get together of energy conservation equipment by with the Broadcasting Commission and try house owners.

Indigenous Power Sources—Report Received; Consultants Engaged; Loan for Block Eary Hydro-Electric Scheme Approved. T96 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

It is very pleasing to be able to move a for pipelines. One point I would just make resolution in the name the Select Corn- here, a simple one, is that the cost of this mittee on Indigenous Power Sources and to type of piping is extremely high. Having know that this resolution is assured of the brought it down from a head of 300 feet on unanimous support of the Court. It is quite an easy plane and a sharp drop, we then obvious from the interest that has been feed it into a turbine alternator costing taken today in alternative sources of power £205,000. These alternators are specifically that we, too, have to accept responsibilities designed for each particular job and de- in this field and those of you who recall livery will take roughly a year and a half the sitting of 7th July are aware, of course, to achieve at the minimum. The beauty of that the first part of this resolution is merely this type of alternator, from the point of to implement the decision taken on that day view of the operator, I am told, is the fact with regard to a geophysical survey and that its maintenance is minimal, that all it with regard to a survey as to, shall I say, needs is, shall I say, the Water Board in- the possible energy requirements of the spector, and remember we are doing a co- Island that was taken at that time. Tynwald ordinating scheme here, the Water Board agreed. The purpose of the first part of the inspector just putting a sight on it as he does resolution is to implement that decision, to his rounds of the gathering area in the give it the financial teeth which will, in fact, normal course of events. The switch-gear be dealt with in an amendment by my hon. and the building which will house the alter- colleague on the Committee, Mr. Moore, at nator and the cabling will cost another a later stage, to make it perfectly clear as £50,000 and to connect it and feed it into to the objective. The second part of the what I might term "the grid" will cost yet resolution, hon. members, and I know you another £30,000, a total of some £367,000. will have read your report, you will have We believe that for that sum of money we studied the plan, which has been lodged in can produce 1,400,000 units of electricty the office of our Clerk of Tynwald, and annually. We are also of the opinion that you will be aware that what we are pro- once this scheme gets off the ground and posing, in simple terms, is to utilise an looking into the future we can, when the existing reservoir at Block Eary, which, as new reservoir is built, on occasions, when you know, is high up on the side of Sulby that reservoir is not pumping over to inje- Glen lying between East Snaefell Gate and breck, use a side-pump to augment the the glen, and this is a reservoir which, in the Block Eary reservoir from the waters we course of time, will become surplus to are damming higher up, and in that way Island requirements; of use, admittedly, as increase the output of this turbine generator an emergency supply, but with the creation that we are going to install. That is the of a new reservoir it will become surplus future programme. I would also add that and it is our intention, with your support, the Water Board have the foresight to place to harness this as a source of hydro-electric in the base of the proposed new reservoir, generation. The reservoir is there, so basi- they are going to place there the necessary cally we have our major cost in being. It is fitments so that if ever it was felt by a reservoir which is situated in an area Tynwald that reservoir, which is going to be which has something like 40 inches of rain- a low-level reservoir and which would take fall and with the improvements to the a terrific amount of piping down the glen catchment area, that we are suggesting in to enable it to generate electricity effectively. the report, we propose to bring in -- (inter- that is very costly, that reservoir will never- ruption) — oh, gathering ground, a new theless be fitted for the purpose of hydro- gathering ground relating to some 1,700 electric generation if Tynwald ever desires acres in addition to the existing gathering it in future. This has been, in the short time ground. When we harness this particular available to us, very much a joint exercise. reservoir, having adapted the catch water An exercise Water Board, an exercise Elec- system at a cost of £30,000 you will have tricity Board, an exercise Committee. if you noted, we will then pipe the water down to like, but the happy thing about it is that the generators. The cost of piping the water everyone is agreed that this is the first sort down is clearly set out in the report, which of positive step to try, not to make our- is in your hands, and it illustrates £37,000 selves self-sufficient in this area, but to try

Indigenous Power Scurces—Report Received; Consultants Engaged; Loan for Block Eary Hydro-Electric Scheme Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T97 and minimise, shall 1 say, our degree of tion of houses at the present time, a point, dependency on outside sources. It may well which I may add, the Local Government be that it is the forerunner of other such Board has been very much aware of in the schemes in the Island, possibly even four development of their own housing schemes more. Obviously you will want to know and one would congratulate them on it. about cost. If you look at page 4 you will What we did was to assess the position, with find set out the capital costs I have the knowledge available to us at the time, enumerated and in paragraph 3.6 you will and we would say, quite frankly, that there find a cost per unit based on annual charges are solar heating schemes that are not worth which, if that form of charge in sinking fund spending money on. We would say equally and interest were adopted, would mean 3p that there are schemes, available to the per unit. However, our proposal is slightly public, which are very worthwhile indeed different and I am glad to say it has been and that possibly, at the moment, the accepted by the Finance Board, and that is Danish types of solar heating are the best the second of the proposals which will in- that are obtainable, but we were very volve a capital cost, a sinking fund over 10 conscious that in Britain there is a marked years, total annual charges, a resulting cost drive, at the moment to meet what is be- per unit at 2.6p. Your Excellency, what we lieved to be the potential of this market have shown you in this report is the actual and a wide range of people are embarking cost of fuel that goes into generating at the on the production of solar panels. An moment, which is 1.75p at the present time. interesting one here, in view of the fact that would make it clear that within the course the name has been mentioned in the Island of the last two days the Department of in connection with another, shall I say, Energy have issued this sort of statement: pursuit, is the Pontin holiday camp orga- "Energy prices could double by the end of nisation who have set up a new factory in the century without taking the general level the south-west employing some 1,500 people of inflation into account," the Department for the specific purpose of producing solar of Energy forecast yesterday. "Oil prices panels and marketing them, an indication of could double or even treble in real terms," the real interest that is being taken in the the Department added in a working docu- development of this field. We felt, Your ment to be considered by the newly- Excellency, having looked at it, that the appointed Energy Commission at its first Local Government Board, as the responsible meeting on 8th November. That has been authority, might well give consideration to the trend, it was the trend when we put the use of solar energy, to the conservation forward a hydro-electric system for the of heat in homes and could add this to their Michael area, which never reached this scheme of support for improvements and Court, but which would have generated at our recommendation, by chance, turned out 1.6p if my memory serves me correctly. to be a £400 maximum but 50 per cent. Today we are reaching a figure of 2.6p. This grant for this purpose up to that stage. It is going to be bargain generation in the was rather interesting because within prac- long term. More important, it is going to tically minutes of your Committee taking make us, at least to that degree, self-reliant. that decision, the same proposition, an So, we commend this particular item in our identical proposition came from the Select resolution to you as being the first tottering Committee on Science and Technology, who step, if you like, to become self-sufficient in had produced a report for the United King- the energy field. The next point, Your Ex- dom Government and had, in fact, stated cellency, relates to our thought on energy this: "We recommend that the installation conservation. We believe that it is, well, of approved solar water heating apparatus silly, to say the least, if one goes ahead in domestic premises should qualify for a with proposals for generation and ignores grant of 50 per cent. of the capital and in- the need for conservation. We believe that stallation costs, subject to a maximum grant solar energy can play a very useful part in of £400 which should be reviewed in the this particular field of conservation — in light of changes in system costs." They go other words we can save what the sun sends on to say how this can best be done with down to us and we do it not only by the conservation of heat and so on. It was rather means of panels but also by proper insula- a peculiar coincidence that identically we

Indigenous Power Sources—Report Received; Consultants Engaged; Loan for Block Eary Hydro-Electric Scheme Approved. T98 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

came up with virtually the same sort of simply -- you have the amendment in front proposal. This proposal has not yet been of you — it is purely and simply really to implemented by the British Government. add (b) to the resolution as it now stands. We hope that the Local Government Board, The reason for it, Your Excellency, really as a result of this recommendation, 1 am is self-explanatory. What I want to make sure they need no encouragement really, will sure of here is that we know exactly where look at this in the sort of light to determine we are going and that we are talking about what types of solar energy equipment to a money resolution, which has the approval which they would give support. Which are of Finance Board to be on this paper. I am the most efficient and which, from an spelling out how much it is going to cost Island point of view, could be regarded as us to do this exercise. So if we can con- really worthwhile. Your Excellency, broadly centrate on that one particular piece of speaking, those are the sort of boundaries information for now. The debate has already that we worked within and those are the taken place, Your Excellency, on what we proposals that have emanated from our are about. We are now on a process of consideration of the points that 1 have elimination. The Indigenous Power Com- mentioned to you. I would only say that in mittee were given terms of reference to look the final paragraph of the report, which 1 at all sources of indigenous power. Some of mentioned earlier on science and tech- them arc reasonably obvious to obtain the nology, there is this conclusion: "Our re- details of. Mr. Speaker in his opening re- commendations in general are that the marks has spoken about some of them - development of alternative energy sources solar energy, wind energy, wave power—all in the United Kingdom should be pursued of these things are under active consideration with urgency and determination. In par- by the Committee. The other thing which is ticular, we believe that the passing period important to us, as far as we are concerned, of national self-sufficiency in energy sup- is to spend a certain amount of money in plies should be used to prove the potential the early days purely and simply to be able of alternative sources. In the longer term it to say " yes, there is gas, yes, there is od- is clear that established sources of energy, or a negative reply "there is nothing there'' such as coal, oil and natural gas, will be and therefore by process of elimination we everywhere considerably scarcer than at can get to a situation of going ahead on the present. It is likely that the contribution things which are really worthwhile. That is made by renewable sources will be relatively all I am going to say on part (2). I ani modest in the near future but will become moving the amendment in order that you increasingly important as fossil fuel prices know that you are speaking about a money rise and the fuels themselves are depleted. resolution, in order that we can do a The foresight of investing in developing geological survey purely and simply to find them should pay considerable energy divi- out whether there is oil within our waters dends for the United Kingdom in the and whether there is gas within our waters. future." It is the contention of your Com- I want to concentrate my remarks this after- mittee, Your Excellency, that the foresight noon, sir, to the part which is of particular of investing in propositions such as this will interest to the Electricity Board. This is my pay dividends for the Isle of Man in the baby really because this is the one, when I future. I beg to move. was precipitated on to the Indigenous Power Mr. Simcocks: 1 beg to second and reserve Committee after they had already been my remarks, Your Excellency. formed, I went ahead with the outlook that we should get both feet on the ground and Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, supporting produce something to this hon. Court which, the motion, naturally, and I hope with the indulgence of this hon. Court that the items in essence, is plain, simple, straightforward will be taken separately in order that each economics. We want to produce energy. The item can be discussed on its own merit. in problem that we were faced with was that the first place 1 do not think that there is the cost of oil was rising in no uncertain any doubt in our minds where we go as far terms, but the one problem that faces us as the interim report being received. If 1 purely and simply as an Electricity Board can move on to (2), I wish to place the when is the right time to do this so that amendment in my name which is purely and we can carry the cost of it. Twenty years

Indigenous Power Source,--Report Received; Consultants Engaged; Loan for Block Ears' Hydro-Electric Scheme Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T99 ago, we should have been speaking in terms Board is in a reasonable position as com- of either the Glen Rushen scheme or the pared with the Douglas Corporation elec- Kirk Michael scheme. tricity undertaking, for instance, because of the distribution problem we have—I should Dr. Mann: Thirty years ago. say the other way about the Douglas Cor- Mr. Moore: Well 30 years ago, but I am poration are in a reasonable position as trying to be generous, allowing 10 years for compared with us because of our distribu- the debate. (Laughter.) tion system. We can generate electricity at Mr. MacDonald: The wind power. about the same figure. It would be rather interesting if you took the figures of what Mr. Moore: Well, this is the wind power it costs —this is the thing that we can talk that we are dealing with all the time. If about because we are not the experts — but there is any opposition to this at all today, if you said to somebody in your area he it is purely and simply on the cost basis. It would know what you were talking about, is going to cost and, of course, it is going if you were in the Board area your bill to cost the same amount of money, £367,000, next month if you use 500 units would be as a Mirrlees engine which we could place £24, if you were in the Douglas Corporation in the Peel power station in order to take area it would be £1785, he knows what you our peak load. This is what it is going to are talking about and you can go and tell cost and the Electricity Board are not sitting him that. Or if he used, at the other end with their hands tied behind their backs, of the scale, something like 2,000 units, they have other schemes which they are which lots of us do use, in the Douglas carrying on their backs. I have been to the Corporation area it would cost £56.10 on Finance Board and explained that we have the present charges, which are being applied a small scheme there which is going to cost as from next month and in the Board area us something in the region of £40,000 for £78, you can see the problem we have got recovery of waste heat at the Peel power now on distribution, so that anything we can station. I do not want to bore the Court at do must be offset in the original stages so this time with a lot of detail about it, it that we can carry the cost without putting is a very acceptable scheme. It is a pilot a further burden on our consumers. In the scheme which eventually, make no mistake long term we can guarantee that this scheme about it, could provide the whole of the will work and will be an economic scheme. heating for the new school at Peel. This is In the short-term, quite obviously, it will the amount of capital that we are prepared carry peak loads as soon as it comes into to spend on experimental ideas that we have operation, it will take the peak load. We with us at present. We are going ahead with are talking in terms of sufficient electricity this, so that when we come to the spending to offset what we have to provide now with of £367,000 and in order not to increase our one of our Mirlees engines. It does not tariffs, we have to go cap in hand to need an expert to explain to this hon. Court Government, we have asked the Finance that all I ani saying here is in the short Board to look very seriously at this. We will term I can say the same as Chairmen have give all the figures possible on this scheme. been saying for 20 years— "I am sorry we We have done our homework on it at cannot afford it at this stage." I think, now present — when I say we I am not the that we are talking about indigenous power, expert, I am merely putting the case for the we should say straight away we can see people who know what they are talking where you are going on this, we know that about on this one. What I am saying is that it is going to be costly in the short term. if you give us 18 months so that we can Eventually it is going to mean a very definite order the turbine and then if you give us saving and it is going to save oil. If this a term of 10 years we will pay back £30,000 scheme works there is no reason why we a year in equal terms over that 10 years and should not come forward with at least what we are seeking in the terms of this another three schemes, in different parts of resolution is not something for nothing from the Island, based on the same scale. Why Government again, except for the fact that have we taken Block Eary? The Speaker in the short-term we want an interest-free has already told you. We have a reservoir loan and let us carry the thing on our backs at Block Eary which is becoming redundant and let us put it on tariffs. At present, the with 11,000,000 gallons of water in it and

Indigenous Power Sources—Report Received; Consultants Engaged; Loan for Block Eary Hydro-Electric Scheme Approved. T100 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

it has a drop of over 300 feet which takes pathetic to energy conservation, having it straight down a mountain through a 24- introduced improved standards of thermal inch pipe, taking away the 8-inch pipe that insulation under the Housing Bye-laws 1976 is already there supplying water, and we and having agreed to experiment with have got a turbine to be driven at the carrying out solar heating in a house at bottom of the river. As simple as that in Peel some little time ago. Certainly, if it is layman's terms, quite obviously, skipping the wish of the hon. Court that we should over all the technical details, which have examine the recommendations and make a been gone into very thoroughly by the report following consultations with the experts. What I am appealing for is the Finance Board, I am very pleased to give support of this Government so that I can that assurance here this afternoon. come forward next month with a money Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, I wish to resolution, having been again to Treasury, speak on behalf of this resolution as well because Treasury must know all the details and what I feel I ought to do now is to of this scheme and must know where we second the amendment. Is this required? are going. The principle I want to establish is that you can see the problem we have The Governor: Yes. got in the Electricity Board, do not turn The Speaker: May 1 add 1 accept the round on this scheme and say, "You go amendment, Your Excellency. ahead with it, it is your bogy". Give us the Mr. Quirk: Thank you very much. 1 think go-ahead now and in the long run — it is we are all aware of the need for energy and not one of these schemes where we are the supply of energy to be increased all the saying that it is goodbye "lolly" we must, time. This is what is happening. We saw or whatever you call it, some of the songs yesterday in the statement by the Chairman that our friends were talking about this of the Finance Board and by the Speaker's morning, but this one is where you get your resolution what was needed in future. Unless "lolly" hack. Therefore we should he we have got energy to provide for these looking seriously at the problem and 1 people we are not going to have any people would hope that at least on this occasion left. This is a very plain fact and that is on part (3) of this resolution, that I will why we, in the Electricity Board, are very have the wholehearted support of Tynwald pleased indeed that this scheme now is so that when I go to Finance Board they coming to fruition. As far as the first know exactly where we stand on this issue. scheme is concerned, which I am now The sooner 1 can order the turbine the seconding, I think this is something which sooner we will get the wheels turning. On has to be done. We have to find out what the other part of the resolution, Your sort of energy supply we have in our Island Excellency, this question of solar energy or around our coasts, but I would probably panels, I an quite sure this is one which like to give a word of warning on this has merely been passed over to the Local because I have heard that these surveys do Government Board so that they can have create a lot of pollution and I hope that it a look at the situation. I am sure the Local will be very carefully done so that there is Government Board would he prepared to no pollution. Oil, 1 think, is pumped into look at the idea and to come back with the sea in bigger quantities to find out if answers as to whether they feel, at this there is any oil or gas there. I would like stage, it is feasible to suggest that we should care to be taken in this matter when this alter our Housing Advances Scheme in order survey is being done. As far as the scheme to fit this in. that we are talking about for electricity, Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I support this has already been said. I think it has everything that the hon. member for North been covered very well by my Chairman and Douglas has said in respect of the pro- by the Speaker as well, and it has been position as far as generating electricity is mentioned, of course, that this would take concerned, and whilst the Local Government the peak load of our supply when necessary. Board have not been consulted by the We will eventually, you can sec by the Select Committee on the recommendation increases in our industry and increases we (b) on the Agenda sheet, 1 believe it is hope to have, we will have to have more generally known that the Board is sym- electricity generated, there is no two-ways

Indigenous Power Sources—Report Received; Consultants Engaged; Loan for Block Eary Hydro-Electric Scheme Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T101 about this. We have either got to get a new all in (3)(a) we do introduce that an interest- machine in or go for the hydro-electric free loan should be forthcoming. This is scheme and this is the one, of course, that probably new in some of these ventures, I we must have because it has so many am not saying I would be against it, it does possibilities. We have been told that we can greatly reduce the subsequent costs, but 1 produce, I think, 1,000,400 units at the would hope that if this is introduced for present time. This is, of course, just by this particular scheme it might well be using this scheme on a very, very small thought to be suitable in other cases. 1 basis. When we talk about pumping water really rose on item (3)(b) which states that back in and increasing the supply of water "The Local Government Board urgently we can run it for longer periods and I am consider the introduction of grants of 50 per told, and there again I have to accept the cent. of the total capital cost, up to a view of our experts, that we can increase maximum of £400, of the installation of this to something like 10 to 15 million energy conservation equipment by house units, which would represent — I think, owners." T would have thought that it would £1,000,400 units would represent somethffig have been that they urged the Local Govern- like 2 per cent. of our total supply, whereas ment Board to consider the introduction of the other would represent something like a scheme to provide grants, because as we 15 per cent. of our supply. So you can see. look at the report it does recommend giving I think, we are on the right lines here. One greater incentives to house owners to install thought that has just struck me — I am energy producing devices such as solar interested, of course, and we all are, in the panels and that there should be a grant of amalgamation of the two electrical supply 50 per cent. of the cost of the capital up to corporations, if you call them that and I £400. It may well be thought, on the re- think this supply of electricity will, even- solution as it appears on the Agenda, that tually, even out the gap between the cost grants should be available for energy con- of production of units which is the great servation equipment which could include bugbear at the moment in attaining total double-glazing. It is alleged by some that unity in the two undertakings. We, of course, double-glazing is one of the finest methods have our problems, as my Chairman has to conserve heat. Other very wonderful said, in the larger area we have to cover salesmen do say that the loft padding and rather than the Douglas Corporation. We insulation is very much superior and others have something like 213 square miles against say that the filling of the cavity walls is the their 17 square miles and I think they have answer. Perhaps we should spell it out 700 people per square mile against our 70 rather more clearly that the intention of this or something like that, so that you can see resolution is to give assistance to people that the distribution costs are tremendous who are to put, what we might call, large with us. I would say I do not think there skylights in the roof to collect some of the is any doubt that this will be accepted today, energy. What I am asking, too, is this there cannot be. We have heard today, sufficiently tried and tested and proved to earlier on, about if Tynwald Court had be a really worthwhile energy supplier, or taken over the Railway Company 20 years are we going to encourage, and I say this ago—now we hear today that 20 years ago with the greatest respect, some people who we talked of starting a hydro-electric supply, do exploit the fact that Governments are so 20 years has some significance today and presenting 50 per cent. of the costs and we have lost 20 years in our undertakings. people do rush into these things and then This, of course, we cannot afford to lose any find that they are not what they thought they longer. As far as the last part of this resolu- were? Are we not going a bit too quickly tion is concerned, do welcome this as well, with the provision of assistance for this but I sincerely hope and I think that the kind of equipment until it has been pro- hon. Mr. Speaker has assured us on this, perly tested and proved to be a real worth- that this will be done by people who know while exercise? I would hope that some what they are doing so that we can get a alteration might be made in that "the Local jolly good supply and get value for money. Government Board consider the introduc- Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, just two tion of a scheme" and a scheme could items on part (3) of the resolution. First of provide all the safeguards which would be

Indigenous Power Sources—Report Received; Consultants Engaged; Loan for Block Eary Hydro-Electric Scheme Approved. TI02 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

necessary. Otherwise, if we pass this, we by this Court and by the Finance Board. I would be pledged to commanding the Local believe that once we have been able to Government Board to provide 50 per cent. demonstrate that this scheme can be carried of the capital cost of solar things in people's out, in the sort of way which has been put roofs. I would move an amendment that we forward, there will be a benefit to the energy introduce the words after the "of" "a sources of the Island, a benefit which will scheme to provide grants". In other words, increase annually with the price of oil going that somebody then has the control over up. I believe that the inconvenience of what is going to happen and the conditions operating, which is an undoubted one, under which this money would be provided. should be recognised by giving the Elec- tricity Board the sort of terms they seek, Your Excellency, 1 am Mr. Simcocks: which is really all they are asking, the sure that the Chairman of the Committee interest on this money for ten years. I would and the members would not object to the have thought that was a very reasonable amendment just moved by the hon. member request to make and I would certainly of Council who has just sat down. My hope that we would be able to get the ap- object, however, in rising is to deal, to some proval of this Court today to the principle extent, with the question of the validity or of the scheme and perhaps next month otherwise of an interest-free loan. It must be perhaps even soften the heart of the Finance remembered that when applications are made Board to provide the finance necessary for to the Finance Board they are apt, as a a scheme like this to go forward. With every result perhaps of bitter experience, to look month that goes by another 11 per cent. is at these schemes with a somewhat jaundiced added to the cost of the civil engineering eye before they actually put their hands in involved. We are up against an implacable their pockets. 1 feel that what we must face time scale and 1 would urge the Court to is the fact that when we are engaged in the give this scheme a fair wind which will go exercise of generating or even conserving a long way towards a start in the conserva- energy from indigenous sources, we must tion of energy, the use of our indigenous face the fact that these ways of doing things power sources and I would hope that we are less convenient than flicking on by a will get the total support from Tynwald switch a diesel set which will produce the today, sir. same amount of electricity as this particular Block Eary scheme. Because it is less con- Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I do venient it is perhaps necessary to demon- not feel, at this moment, that the Chairman strate to those concerned, clearly the Elec- or the members of the Finance Board want tricity Board, who have proved very helpful their hearts softening to the suggestion put compatriots in this scheme with us, clearly forward in reference to the hydro-electric they are convinced. Our job is to convince scheme. I am certain if we are talking about those who are apt to doubt the scheme and the attitude of Finance Board in general. particularly the controllers of the purse- that we will always give support to some- strings. Therefore, it was felt that the best things that is going to be beneficial in way of dealing with this problem was to general to the community of the Isle of provide a scheme which, of its kind, is Man, and it would appear that this scheme relatively straightforward. It is a simple would be. I would just like, briefly, to deal process of emptying half the water in the with the last section of this resolution, Block Eary reservoir down a pipe in a which deals with the position of 50 per cent. matter of two, three or four hours and thus grants on the solar heating installations. producing a high rate of generation for a The hon. member of Council, Mr. Nivison, relatively short period. We feel that this is dealt with most of the points I wanted to a scheme which is relatively easy to demon- refer to. We have got so many different strate and once demonstrated as a successful systems of retention of heat in housing that venture, Your Excellency, may well prove we went through, when I was on the Local to be the means of convincing this Court Government Board • wall insulation, roof that it is worthwhile doing other schemes of insulation, different types of thermal bricks. a similar, though not quite so immediate et cetera, which could be introduced. I feel nature. I believe that this is a case where a that I would not accept this amendment for little priming of the pump is well justified the simple reason that I would hope the

Indigenous Power Sources—Report Received; Consultants Engaged; Loan for Block Fan' Hydro-Electric Scheme Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T103

Local Government Board would give this Glenfaba, and that is the survey and energy matter consideration, but 1 would hope they appreciation. This worries me very consider- would not go as far as introducing a ably indeed. Firstly, there are very few large scheme, because, to me, once you suggest mining or oil companies that could not giving grants of 40 per cent. for something already have cast their eyes in this direction. like the installation of solar heating, I know The fact that they are not here already exactly where that money is going to go to. almost certainly means that there is not any- It is not going to benefit the persons getting thing to come for, but just in case they it put in or the people we are supposed to have overlooked something and this survey be benefiting, it will go right into the pocket finds something, where do we go then? It of the man who is doing the installation. It must either be coal or gas or oil. If it is happened exactly in the same situation when coal, it would be beyond the realms of this we at times were considering our Private Government ever to finance its extraction Enterprise Scheme, and what sort of assis- and we would, therefore, be in the hands of tance should be given, and nine times out of some large mining group. If we found gas, ten you would find that the further involve- we would find one gas well would be way ment that the Government got in these above the actual energy requirements of this schemes up would go the price of your Island and somebody would have to dispose house and the person who was supposed to of the surplus. Once again somebody would get the benefit was not getting it at all. 1 have to finance this. Thirdly, and worst of do not think, for one moment, at this stage, all, is that we could find oil and if we found that we should ask the Local Government oil the demand of this Island for oil is a Board to produce a scheme but we should tiny drop of the production of one oil well, go along with the idea that they can investi- therefore you would have to transport your gate it because the Local Government Board oil back to a refinery or, bringing up horrors men, and again it goes back to whether or of history, we might even be asked to pro- not we accept that we are politicians and vide a refinery and, thirdly, you would pay we have experts advising our various Boards for the transport back again. The thought of and they have gone into this solar heating this Island becoming an oil community, an system and I am sure the hon. Mr. Speaker oil-based economy is horrific. I would say himself, as he said in his very first comment it would cause the total disintegration of was the fact that there are numerous solar the way of life of this Island, and I, for heating systems that are a complete waste of one, would not even like to know that oil time. If we are going to have a scheme we is there. would have to define, which would be very, Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I will be very difficult, which are the ones which are brief because I fully intended to support satisfactory and which are the ones that were this wholeheartedly this afternoon until the not before you would be in a position to hon. member for Council, Mr. Simcocks, give this maximum £400 grant. Let the was making his speech and perhaps the hon. Local Government Board consider it, but mover could give me some assurance on a for heaven's sake, in my estimation, they point which, I think I understand he said, should not, at this time, be asked to pro- and that was that it was the intention to duce a scheme which they could have. empty the Block Eary reservoir, half empty Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I do not the Block Eary reservoir in two to three think anybody, as previous speakers have hour spells to increase the generation. My said, would speak against this scheme pro- only comment on that is, from my limited duced basically by the Electricity Board, knowledge of that area, the outfall from the which obviously is feasible, which obviously Block Eary goes down quite steeply down is desirable and which many people have to the Sulby River and clown to a con- been supporting for very many years and to siderable area there and I wonder about produce a working scheme of this nature damage to the banks, the river banks if this swiftly, I think, is very commendable. What flush of water is going to go down, it is 1 wish to talk about is the part which has going to be rather like emptying the cistern not been mentioned yet by either the mover clown the toilet, one would suggest, every of the resolution, the hon. Mr. Speaker, or two or three days. Has there been any anybody else, except the hon. member from consideration taken in the fact that this

Indigenous Power Sources—Report Received; Consultants Engaged; Loan for Block Eary Hydro-Electric Scheme Approved. T I 04 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

flush of water is going to go out of the hands, so that will be decided by someone reservoir down that comparatively small else in another place. I was interested also stream, at the present time, emptying into in the particular thing about the reservoirs. the Sulby River where, incidentally, I have As a member of the Attractions Committee seen men on tractors actually using it and of the Tourist Board we, at the moment, one particular area springs immediately to are trying to carry out a survey into trying my mind, it is used as a crossing place, as to use these things to better use. In Britain a fording place? It may sound a bit bizarre alone there are six million anglers. We but if there is a tidal wave going to sweep should be using these reservoirs to give the down there, one wonders has this been tourist something in the Isle of Man. This taken into consideration in relation to the is something where we can all work together. banking? This was one of the arguments. Mr. Crowe: Just two questions, Your Mr. Anderson: This is where we came in. Excellency, and one of them has quite a bit Mr. Delaney: Yes, but what we have got to do with Block Eary and being in Wales to do is tell people and we have got to take early this summer, I was with a member of stock of these reservoirs and put them to the Water Board there, and he showed me good use. It is not only a matter, as my a position where they were going to build hon. friend from North Douglas has pointed a new reservoir and he said the water that out, of electricity, it is to get a return on, would be caught in this reservoir would be not only on the power side of it but on the used three times before it got down to the actual environment that we are going to level to generate electricity. With a drop of create. I hope that when they are talking 300 feet and this ties in, I think, with Mr. about these new reservoirs and utilising Cringle's question, is there any possibility them that they think about getting them of this water being used twice before it gets used for yachting, as they are being used down to the bottom? There is a possibility but not to their maximum potential. too that if it comes down as fast as Mr. Simcocks was talking about, the speed would Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, there probably he taken off that water altogether is that point which was raised by the hon. by the machinery that was there generating member and that is, I believe, Mr. Speaker this power and therefore when the water can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe entered the river it would not be at such a that our rights do exist out to the three speed or with such force if it came down miles and that is all. Beyond that, and under an open pipe. The other question really was the control, we gave this away, we are tied up with generation and I wondered if under the control of another Government, this Committee had looked, at any time, at so what we would be looking at is three the waters surrounding the south of the miles and drilling holes in land, I presume, Island at the Sound where there is bigger not that I am against that. 1 am only sorry force there to generate electricity than any- that it was not a British firm that were where else in the Isle of Man? It may be doing it in this day and age. With regard to a physical impossibility, I do not know, but (3)(b), Your Excellency, the only thing there is a force of water there which would about this is that if this is successful on the probably drive or have the power to drive Local Government Board and we convince forces which would generate electricity for everybody that this is the thing to do, and the whole Island and I wondered if this it is successful then maybe, perhaps, we will Committee had looked into it. not need Block Eary because everybody will have a solar panel in the roof and you will Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, congratu- not need all the power you arc presently lations, I think, are in order here. We arc generating at the generation station. Whether looking forward to the future for a change one is going to work against the other I instead of trying to hold our levels with the do not know. present day and I am a bit confused about this, I understood that anything to do with Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I hear, oil or gas is in the hands of the British quite properly that the Committee on the Government. We are plot 112 on the scale indigenous powers has looked not only at for the exploration of oil and gas and the discovery of alternative sources of energy natural resources and that is out of our but also are now stressing the matter of

Indigenous Power Sources—Report Received; Consultants Engaged; Loan for Block Eary Hydro-Electric Scheme Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T105

a "Save it" campaign introduced in the Isle has been a desire to be helpful to progress of Man, because by encouraging through a what is recognised as an obvious need to tariff structure, we could get people to use conserve and develop Island sources of less electricity, use cars less, in fact as they energy. If I may deal with the points that have to do in the United States at the have been raised briefly, Your Excellency, I moment, they have to consider that our will be brief — Mrs. Quayle has mentioned energy resources will, before we know where an open-ended commitment. I would be less we are, run out. Conservation is a matter than honest if I were to say that we do not which I think should start at home--charity expect a rise in the cost since we brought here begins at home. At lunch-time next this item to Tynwald three months ago, but door I found the temparature of the new I would expect that rise to be in comparison building there well above what would be the to the overall cost of L16,000. We have had normal temparature and I think that here to wait three months for our financial vote we might encourage the Government Pro- but I could not swear that today we can perty Trustees to conduct an exercise into negotiate at exactly the same figure, there how much we can save on heating next door. will likely be a slight rise. Now on your The only other thing I want to mention, point of conservation, gladly accepted. It Your Excellency, is this— quite properly has been the intention of our consultants we are looking into the question of solar in the job to ensure that we are protecting panels, but I must make this remark that the environment as well as developing re- the provision of efficient solar panels is sources. The whole question of the pipeline something they are still striving for. It is being screened, the whole question of a a rapidly changing and improving tech- suitable building for housing our generators nology, so I hope if there is any introduction has been looked at and that is embodied in of a scheme of solar panels it should be an the proposals that we have put before you. efficient scheme and not something which Mr. MacDonald has very helpfully answered will be obsolescent within a matter of years. the point raised by Mr. Delaney — yes, we do control the resources to three miles and. Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I just quite frankly, I hope that before so very wanted an assurance that if we voted for long we will control them to 12 miles in the the geological survey that we are not finding new Law of the Sea arrangement. That is ourselves with a costly thing with an open- taking a little time but perhaps before the ended commitment, because these surveys end of this House we may have reached a can be very expensive. The Block Eary 12-mile control. However, the hon. member thing I am happy about, provided that the of the Council, Mr. Crowe, has raised a turbine building, which is going to be in a very valid point — why not use the water very beautiful part of Sulby Glen, is not twice? This, in fact, has been looked at by going to be very large and obtrusive. 1 our consultants and they have advised that would very much like a reassurance about the maximum amount of benefit to be this and about the pressure pipe coming derived will come from a planing out of • down. As regards the (3)(b), the solar panels, the water and a sharp drop of roughly 300 one person's economy is another person's feet to the turbine. It certainly has been expense I find and where we are trying to examined and I can only regret and the economise and bring our bills down im- Committee regrets that we cannot do what mediately the standing charge goes up or he suggests effectively. The other point that the other charges go up, it seems impossible the hon. member has made, in relation to to bring your bill clown. Also, take for generation at the south of the Island. Yes. example, Castletown where we have under we have a leading scientist, sir, in contact 1,500 houses, if everybody had a grant on with the Committee and it is Sir Christopher this scale it would cost the Island Li million. Cockrell of hovercraft fame who is, in fact, going to come to the Tsland when he has The Speaker: Your Excellency, I am sure concluded some experiments he is doing at my Committee shares with me real pleasure the present time with regard to wave and in the fact that our resolution, this after- tidal control. That point is also one foremost noon, has been welcomed in such a con- in the minds of the Committee. Mr. Cringle structive way by members. Questions posed has made a point and a very valid point. have been of real value and at times there with regard to putting an eight-inch volume

Indigenous Power Sources—Report Received; Consultants Engaged; Loan for Block Eary Hydro-Electric Scheme Approved. TI06 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 of water with force on it into the Sulby. in this direction. We know full well that The first thing I would mention is that by the conservation of heat line has produced the time this lot comes to fruition the top disastrous effects in some cases, effects that end of the Sulby is likely to be denuded of have really brought people to tears. It is a considerable amount of water by the con- not our intention that we should urge the trol of the other dam, so that the extra Local Government Board to go in that water we are going to get into the Block direction at all. We realise that they, in Eary and put into the Sulby is going to be their examination, will come up, when they beneficial. As to pouring it out in a splurge. do, with realistic proposals and that is as I think Mr. Crowe has really given part of far as we go. When they do get those the answer, the control through the turbine realistic proposals we say please consider will have a reducing effect on this. We will giving a 50 per cent. grant up to a certain also take steps to ensure that there can be level, to enable the approved patterns to a barrier line so that when it does hit the be put into operation, because they can river it is not going to go down as a tidal ease the load not only on the electricity wave but will merely form its own river generating side but also on the householder. pattern and will be beneficial to all those We are not trying to exploit anything, as who either use the river for farming pur- Mr. Nivison would have suggested, very poses. and I mean by that for watering and quickly or too quickly. We would wish so on, those points have, in fact, been looked adequate safeguards and we believe that at and will be borne in mind. Dr. Mann's they will come from the Local Government reaction — well I do not know what the Board. I would say here that I do welcome reaction of the Court would be if we did the support of Mr. Anderson in this respect find oil, but I can only say that on the last and his expression of willingness to co- occasion we discussed this matter the voting operate fully. There is one point 1 would in favour of the research taking place was mention in respect of the project we are 21 to 1 in the House and regrettably talking about, I would pay particular tribute doctor, you were not with us on that to our consultant, Mr. Peacock, who has occasion. The point made by the Chairman brought together the Water Board, the Elec- of the Finance Board again really answered tricity Board and, in fact, has been our some of the questions that were posed right-hand man in connection with this earlier, and he is very right in this. What development, the earlier suggestion of a we are saying to the Local Government hydro-electric scheme at Michael and is a Board is will you have a look at this one. really valuable consultant to our Committee. We believe there is merit in it. We arc also Your Excellency, indeed I welcome the now supported in our contention that there support of the hon. member for Glenfaba. is merit in it by the best scientific brains Mr. Quirk. As a member of the Electricity that the United Kingdom possesses. If I may Board he realises full well what we are quote from that report — "At present while trying to do and how beneficial, in the long there appear to be technical and economic term, this can be to the Island. I am sure difficulties over the use of photo-voltaic con- that is appreciated by each and every version as a large-scale means of electricity member of the Court. I am not going to generation in the United Kingdom, similarly labour it. I am confident that you, in your Ihe commercial development of solar bionass commonsense, will support this resolution. conversion, that is the growing of plants Thank you. for use as source of energy in the United The Governor: Hon. members, 1 propose Kingdom, appears unlikely at present, we are to put the resolution in its three parts. impressed with the potential for the direct Firstly paragraph (I), that the interim report utilisation of solar energy in the field of of the Select Committee be received. Is that space and water heating. We consider that agreed? solar heating in particular has the greatest immediate potential of all the renewable It was agreed. sources studied by us and we recommend its The Governor: The second paragraph - vigorous exploitation." With that sugges- I will first of all put the amendment to this tion of "vigorous exploitation'. we go fully. paragraph as moved by the hon. member What we are saying, we are confident in for Douglas North, Mr. Moore, seconded our belief that there are innumerable pitfalls by Mr. Quirk. is that agreed?

Indigenous Power Sources—Report Received; Consultants Engaged; Loan for Block Eary Hydro-Electric Scheme Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T107

It was agreed. It was indeed the Chairman of the Ecclesias- The Governor: I now put that part of the tical Committee himself who introduced this resolution, as amended. Is that agreed? Bill into my Synod and received there the unanimous support of both the House of It was agreed. Clergy and of the House of Laity. What The Governor: Finally, 1 put the third indeed he was seeking to do here, sir, was part of the motion as it stands on the that which is now appertaining with the Agenda. Is that agreed? House of Commons and the House of Lords, It was agreed. in that the General Synod of the Church of England, when they have measures for The Governor: Then the whole resolution onward transmission to the Privy Council is agreed. for the Royal Assent, now table their Bills in both the Commons and the Lords and also the same appertains to the General CHURCH (SUSPENSION OF Synod. We had very much hoped that this PRESENTATION) BILL 1977 - was possible here and it is the wish of my REPORT OF ECCLESIASTICAL own legislative committee of the Diocese COMMITTEE — APPROVED. and indeed of the Diocese itself that the The Governor: This brings us to item Ecclesiastical Committee perhaps will think number 23 and I call on the Chairman of once again of making an approach to the the Ecclesiastical Committee. Home Office to ask whether they can make some suggestion how indeed the original Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— Bill, introduced by Mr. Kermeen, may re- ceive their support and may then ultimately That the Report of the Ecclesiastical Com- come to this House. mittee of Tynwald dated 29th September 1977 on the Church (Suspension of Presen- Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, may I tation) Bill 1977 and the recommendation just say two words direct to two very good contained in such Report be and the same is hereby approved. friends of mine, the hon. member for Peel and the hon. member, Mr. Anderson, of The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. Glenfaba? I have every sympathy with them members? in their view, which has been oft expressed It was agreed. to me, and I can see their difficulty. They are both, I know, good members of the Methodist Church and I also know that they CHURCH (GENERAL SYNOD feel it rather improper and embarrassing for MEASURES) BILL 1977 — SECOND them to take part in anything which con- REPORT OF ECCLESIASTICAL cerns the internal government of the Church COMMITTEE — APPROVED. of England. 1 feel the same as a high Anglican, I would not wish to be concerned The Governor: Item number 24. The with the governance of the Methodist Chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee. Church. However, Church and State have Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I beg to been interlinked too long. I have here, it is move:— from the Manx Society, Volume 29, Sir That the Second Report of the Ecclesias- James Gell's memorandum on the Isle of tical Committee of Tynwald dated 29th Man and the Diocese of Sodor and Man, a September 1977 on the Church (General most important document. It is, in fact, as Synod Measures) Bill 1976 be and the same the name implies the same history, whether is hereby approved. it be the Diocese of Sodor and Man or the The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, may I Civil Government of the Isle of Man. The beg leave of the Court to speak for one old saying is in Manx "They're in and they moment? In so doing may I, as Bishop, pay gorra be kept", and so we have got to go my tribute to the Ecclesiastical Committee ahead with this and I think when we persist for the way that they are progressing a above all we must have, if I may say, my number of Bills, some of which are long Lord, the Christian virtue of patience here, overdue in this Diocese, which have been we must persist and make it clear to the operating in England for a very long time. Home Office that far from disturbing the

Church (Suspension of Presentation) Bill 1977—Reuort of Ecclesiastical Committee—Ap- proved. — Church (General Synod Measures) Bill 1977—Second Report of Ecclesiastical Committee—Approved. T108 l'YNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 constitutional relationship, we are hoping The Governor: Is that agreed'? to streamline procedure as much in their It was agreed. interest, the interest of Privy Council, as of Tynwald. The Governor: Is that agreed'? LOCAL GOVERNMENT (INCREASE OF FEES) ORDER 1977 It was agreed. — APPROVED. The Governor: Item number 28. The PENSIONS INCREASE (MANUAL Chairman of the Local Government Board. WORKERS SUPERANNUATION Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to SCHEMES) REGULATIONS 1977 move:— — APPROVED. That the Local Government (Increase of The Governor: Item number 25. The Fees) Order 1977, made by the Isle of Man Chairman of the Finance Board. Local Government Board under the pro- visions of section 8 of the Local Govern- Your Excellency, I beg Mr. P. Rq4eliffe: ment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, to move:— be and the same is hereby approved. That the Pensions Increase (Manual The Governor: Is that agreed'? Workers Superannuation Schemes) Regula- tions 1977, made by the Finance Board on It was agreed. 31st August 1977 under section 5 of the Pensions (Increase) Act 1974, be and the same are hereby approved. PEEL AND WESTERN DISTRICT HOUSING (AMENDMENT) ORDER The Governor: Is that agreed'? 1977 — APPROVED. It was agreed. The Governer: Item number 29. The Chairman of the Local Government Board. PRICE MARKING (FISH) ORDER Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to 1977— APPROVED. move:— The Governor: Item number 26. The That Tynwald approves the Peel and Chairman of the Consumer Council. Western District Housing (Amendment) Order 1977, made by the Local Government Your Excellency, 1 beg to Mr. Lowey: Board on 2nd September 1977 under the move:— provisions of the Housing Acts 1955 to /976. That the Price Marking (Fish) Order 1977, The Governor: Is that agreed'? made by His Excellency the Lieutenant- Governor on the 27th June 1977 under It was agreed. section 1(3) of the Price Marking Act 1976. be and the same is hereby approved. NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE The Governor: Is that agreed'? (ISLE OF MAN) (CHARGES) It was agreed. AMENDMENT (No. 2) REGULATIONS 1977— APPROVED. MEAT INSPECTION (AMENDMENT) The Governor: Item number 30. The REGULATIONS 1977— APPROVED. Vice-Chairman of the Health Services Board. The Governor: Item number 27. The Your Excellency, I beg to Chairman of the Local Government Board. Mrs. Hanson: move:— Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to 7'hut the National Health Services (Isle of move:— Man) (Charges) Amendment (No. 2) Regu- 7'hat the Meat Inspection (A mendment) lations 1977, made by the Isle of Man Health Regulations 1977, made by the Isle of Man Services Board on 19th September 1977 Local Government Board on 26th August under the provisions of sections 36. 39 and 1977 under the provisions of sections 14 and 57 of the National Health Service (Isle of 69 of the Food and Drugs Act 1963. be and Man) Act 1948. as amended, be and the the same are hereby approved. some are hereby approved.

Pensions Increase (Manual Workers Superannuation Schemes) Regulations 1977—Approved. — Price Marking (Fish) Order 1977—Approved. — Meat Inspection (Amendment) Regula- tions 1977- -Approved. — Local Government (Increase of Fees) Order 1977—Approved. - Peel and 'Western District Housing (Amendment) Order I 977—Approved. — National Health Service (Isle of Man) (Charges) Amendment (No. 2) Regulations 1977—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T109

The Governor: Is that agreed'? That the Social Security Subsidiary Legis- lation (Application) (No. 3) Order 1977, It was agreed. made by the Isle of Man Board of Social Security on 30th September 1977, with the prior concurrence of the Finance Board, be SEA FISHERIES (CRABS) BYE-LAWS and the same is hereby approved. 1977— APPROVED. The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. The Governor: Item number 31. The members? Chairman of the Board of Agriculture and It was agreed. Fisheries. Mr. Crowe: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— SOCIAL SECURITY SUBSIDIARY That the Sea Fisheries (Crabs) Bye-Laws LEGISLATION (APPLICATION) 1977, made by the Isle of Man Board of (CHILD BENEFIT) ORDER 1977 Agriculture and Fisheries, be and the same are hereby approved. — APPROVED. The Governor: Is that agreed? The Governor: Item number 34. The Chairman of the Board of Social Security. It was agreed. Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— SOCIAL SECURITY SUBSIDIARY That the Social Security Subsidiary Legis- LEGISLATION (APPLICATION) (No. 2) lation (Application) (Child Benefit) Order ORDER 1977 — APPROVED. 1977, made by the Isle of Man Board of The Governor: Item number 32. The Social Security on 30th September 1977, with Chairman of the Board of Social Security. prior concurrence of the Finance Board, be and the same is hereby approved. Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I beg to Is that agreed, hon. move:— The Governor: members? That the Social Security Subsidiary Legis- lation (A p,plication) (No. 2) Order 1977, It was agreed. made by the Isle of Man Board of Social Security on 9th September 1977, be and the same is hereby approved. SUPPLEMENTARY BENEFIT That Tynwald authorises the Treasurer of (ISLE OF MAN) (DETERMINATION the Isle of Man to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ended OF REQUIREMENTS) REGULATIONS 31st March 1978 a sum not exceeding 1977 — APPROVED. £575,000 to meet the additional expenditure The Governor: Item number 35. The under the Order (such sum to be additional Chairman of the Board of Social Security. to the amount voted by Tynwald in the Budget on 17th May 1977 for the purpose Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I beg to of carrying into effect the services provided move:— by Tynwald). That the Supplementary Benefit (Isle of The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. Man) (Determination of Requirements) members? Regulations 1977 made by the Isle of Man Board of Social Security on 9th September It was agreed. 1977, be and the .same are hereby approved. That Tynwald authorises the Treasurer of SOCIAL SECURITY SUBSIDIARY the Isle of Man to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ended LEGISLATION (APPLICATION) (No. 3) 31st March 1978 a sum not exceeding ORDER 1977 — APPROVED. £60,000 to meet the additional expenditure The Governor: Item number 33. The under the Regulations (such sum to be Chairman of the Board of Social Security. additional to the amount voted by Tynwald in the Budget on 17th May 1977 for the Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I beg to purpose of carrying into effect the services move:— provided by Tynwald).

Sea Fisheries (Crabs) Bye-Laws 1977—Appr oved. — Social Security Subsidiary Legislation (Application) (No. 2) Order 1977—Approved — Social Security Subsidiary Legislation (Ap- plication) (No. 3) Order 1977—Approved. — Social Security Subsidiary Legislation Applica- tion) (Child Benefit) Order 1977—Approved. -.Supplementary Benefit (Isle of Man) (Deter- mination of Reguirements) Regulations 1977—Approved. T I 10 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. LOCAL AUTHORITIES - members? ATTENDANCE ALLOWANCES FOR MEMBERS — LEGISLATION TO BE It was agreed. INTRODUCED. The Governor: Item number 38. The Chairman of the Local Government Board. FAMILY INCOME SUPPLEMENTS Mr. Anderson: (ISLE OF MAN) (COMPUTATION) Your Excellency, I beg to move:— (No. 2) REGULATIONS, 1977 — APPROVED. That Tynwald approves of legislation being introduced by the Local Government The Governor: Item number 36. The Board to enable attendance allowances to be Chairman of the Board of Social Security. paid to members of local authorities in certain circumstances. Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I beg to I am sure hon. members will have closely move:— studied the explanatory memorandum which That the Family Income Supplements (Isle I arranged to circulate to them on the sub- of Man) (Computation) (No. 2) Regulations ject of attendance of the members of the 1977, made by the Isle of Man Board of local authorities and I do not intend to go Social Security on 30th September 1977, with into that in detail. I shall, of course, be the prior concurrence of the Finance Board, pleased to answer any questions hon. mem- be and the same are hereby approved. bers may wish to ask. The Local Govern- The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. ment Board have considered this matter for members? some time and at some length and recog- It was agreed. nises the wish expressed by some local authorities for this legislation to be intro- duced at the present time. Over the years, the duties and responsibilities of local ISLE OF MAN POLICE PAY AND authorities have increased to the point where ALLOWANCES DETERMINATION some of their members and particularly 1977 — APPROVED. those of the larger authorities, and especially The Governor: Item number 37. The Douglas, are performing duties which are Chairman of the Police Board. of a very time-consuming nature. It is true that some of the smaller authorities are not Mr. Ward: Your Excellency, I beg to in full agreement with the payment of move:— allowances. However I must stress that no (1) That the Isle of Man Police Pay and authority will be directed or coerced into Allowances Determination 1977, made by making these payments against their wishes the Isle of Man Police Board in pursuance and the discretion to do so will be entirely to Section 10(1)(c) of the Police (Isle of within their province. If a decision is made Man) Act 1962 after consultation with the by the authority to make the payments it Governor, the Finance Board and the Isle will apply to all the members. The legis- of Man Police Federation, be and the same lation would, of course, prescribe for atten- is hereby approved. dance allowances to be paid by resolution (2) That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man of each authority on terms approved by the be authorised to apply from the current Local Government Board under the order. revenue of the Isle, during the year ending such order would, of course, require the 31st March 1978 a sum not exceeding [42, 530 being the amount required to give approval of Tynwald before it came into effect to paragraph (1) above in the current effect. This hon. Court would, therefore, financial year, such sum to be in addition have the ultimate say. In addition to the to the sum voted on 17th May 1977 to payment of members for attendance at enable the Board to give effect to the meetings of local authorities and its com- services approved by Tynwald. mittees the order would make provision for the payment of allowances and attendances The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. at conference or such things as the Muni- members? cipal Association meetings. It is further It was agreed. proposed that in certain circumstances the

Family 1:-?come Supplements (Isle of Man) (Computation) (No. 2) Regulations, 1977- Ap- proved. — Isle of Man Police Pay and Allowances Determination 1977—Approved. — Local Authorities—Attendance Allowances for Members—Legislation to be Introduced. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T111 chairman of a large authority could claim If we said we were getting something for for additional allowances where their duties our time, then I think we should have to are of a particularly time-consuming nature. pay tax on it. The bie question to my mind, It is well known that the chairmen of sir, is that we have now local authorities these authorities spend a very considerable where a great deal of the burden that used amount of time dealing with the affairs of to be met by local authorities is being met the local authority during their period of by Government. The Douglas Corporation, office and it is thought fair and reasonable they used to run a 'bus service, they do not that they should be entitled to make the run a 'bus service any more; they had a appropriate claim for their time. It is not water undertaking, they do not run a water the Board's intention to authorise over- undertaking any more. There are a number generous payments which would appear to of services, the whole of their housing be the case in the United Kingdom. Hon. deficiency is now met by Government. What members will note that the memorandum is will happen in this. The costs of any such in broad terms in the form of this proposal allowances to these gentlemen will only pile that legislation should follow that contained up the cost of the rates and the next thing in Part III of the Payment of Members' will be that they will come along to Govern- Expenses Act 1975. At the present time these ment, through the Finance Board, and say payments are limited to £4 per session plus the rate is going to be 3p, we want it re- travelling expenses in certain circumstances. ducing to 21p, will you please give us a Hon. members will, I am sure, be aware of subsidy because the rates have gone up by the considerable time and personal expenses reason of the payments for all these atten- that can be incurred in the performance of dances at meetings. It has been done ever their own duties and are aware of the since local authorities were first established, position of those in relation to the service and that is a very, very long time ago, on on the local authority. Having given care- a voluntary basis. It has been regarded as an ful consideration to the matter and the honour to become a member, let us say, of comments of the various local authorities, I Douglas Town Council, perhaps eventually would strongly urge Tynwald to give ap- to become Mayor of Douglas, and the proval to the inclusion of the proposed expenses if you attain the office of mayor legislation in the form outlined. I would are covered by the council on your behalf. like to pay tribute to the many people who Whether you think that the cover is suf- for many years have given service in the ficient or not is another matter, but there local authorities throughout the Island, at is no doubt that allowances are made for considerable sacrifice to themselves, that will people who are in special positions. I be- be recognised, and again 1 emphasise that lieve, Your Excellency, that we should not there is no compulsion whatsoever on any start this habit which, as we know in the local authority who do not wish to adopt United Kingdom, has been a bit of a disaster this or accept it for them to do so. I beg and there are people we hear of regularly — to move. 1 hope that we can believe some of the reports that appear in the papers, of gentle- A Member: 1 beg to second. men going to big dinners free and charging Sir John Bolton: Your Excellency, 1 feel £6 or £10 attendance fee at a dinner. Now that far from the enormous expansion these kind of things apparently are going on of the duties of the members of local and I think that we must keep our feet on authorities in the present day, they are the ground. probably lessened in a great many cases compared with many years ago. It is over Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I am 30 years ago that 1 was a member of strongly against it. I asked the youngest the Douglas Corporation for a period of commissioner of Castletown who is an elec- six years. There was no question of any- trician in his late twenties and he appears body at that time asking for any attendance to me to be proud and I know he is very allowance or for any, as the hon. Chairman proud to represent the town for nothing. said, payment for their time. Now even we, He feels he is a lucky man. He feels that if ourselves, do get something, cover it up this was brought in it would lead to abuse with the fiction that it is expenses and we and he thinks the wrong type of person do not say we get something for our time. would put up. Having sounded round the

Local Authorities—Attendance Allowances for Members—Legislation to be Introduced. T112 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 town they do not want it because it has be treated on any different basis than mem- been worked out that at £6 a meeting -- I bers of Tynwald are treated? This only do not know where they wished that sum up suggests that legislation should be intro- from — but at £6 a meeting it would a I p duced to permit the payment of allowances rate in Castletown. in certain circumstances, so when the legis- Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, 1, too, lation is drafted it will then come up for feel it only right that we should not fall debate and decide in what limited circum- too easily into this situation. Many of us stances and what maximum should be placed have friends and relations in England today on it. We are only being asked at the present who will tell them of the disastrous effects time to approve it in principle, I do not see of two things happening. First of all there how a different principle can apply to local was the combination of small effective local authorities than applies to Tynwald. authorities into huge organisations which Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, the hon. lost all sense of locality in local govern- member for Ramsey took my introductory ment; the other, was the introduction of words out of my mouth, because I would payments such as the hon. Chairman of the say that, in the past, members of Tynwald Local Government Board now proposes. used to work for either little or no pay but The effect of this has, in practice, led to a that is not so today. I believe that members very frightening escalation in the level of serving in local authorities should not be rates in the United Kingdom. It is all very expected to give their time freely and be out well saying that the payment will only be of pocket financially while doing so. In my so much for each attendance — I am not 22 years on a local authority I was not making any accusations, one cannot make aware of any member on that local autho- accusations — but the fact of the matter rity ever receiving a penny-piece to cover is that in England when the system of travelling, telephones or postages. In addi- allowances was introduced, one of the first tion to those expenses, which on the larger things that happened was that local govern- local authorities can be considerable, there ment tended to organise themselves into are election expenses to face every three committees and sub-committees, and they, years and these, too, can be very con- by one means or another, in that sort of siderable. Hon. members, having said that, way, contrived to be qualified for an atten- however, I do feel that recommendations in dance allowance, perhaps twice in every day the memorandum as put forward by the of the week. I am not suggesting that this Local Government Board—although I know is going to produce that effect, but do not that a few of these people on the local let us delude ourselves into thinking that we authorities would abuse the situation, I are going to improve matters. All we are would not like to see a situation here in the going to do is to create a heavier rate Isle of Man similar to that which exists in burden for local authority rates; we are many of the local authorities on the main- going to create a situation where the public land. I would like to see attendance moneys in the Isle of Man might be just as dis- paid for the statutory monthly meetings illusioned with its local authorities as are only and this would ensure the situation the people of England. I believe this to be where commissioners would be adequately a mistake and a retrograde step and we covered for their out-of-pocket expenses should not take this first step which tends and, at the same time, would not create a to be the first step onto the slippery slide, situation which could be abused and for and once run we cannot stop the machine. these reasons, Your Excellency, I would I believe we should say here and now that like to suggest that the memorandum as put local authorities in the Isle of Man have forward by the Chairman of the Local indicated they do not want this scheme, we Government Board be referred back for would be very foolish if we entered into it. further consideration. Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, I wonder Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, I am going whether the people who are against this in to support the resolution in the name of principle have also refused to take their own the Chairman of the Local Government pay and allowances as members of Tynwald Board. As I listened to him, I think he because, after all, what is the difference. said that any legislation would be based on Why should these people in local authorities the Payment of Members' Expenses Act

Local Authorities—Attendance Allowances for Members—Legislation to be Introduced. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 3

1975. I understand that he said that it would authorities are stretched out anyway. For not be mandatory so that the local authority one thing they are losing each year, due to could, or need not, participate. I think that this Rating and Valuation Bill which the the Chairman said that any rules or regula- last House brought in, they are losing 10 tions would require the approval of the per cent. of their income steadily each year Local Government Board, I think he said and by 1984 they will have no Government that in the end Tynwald would have to assistance for their rates whatsoever. In fact approve the order. I think he said all these the rate of an old shack of a house in the things and on top of this it must be accepted, country will be nearly town rates in other too, that in the end the local authorities words. I think this legislation, if approved. have a Government audit in the same way and coupled with the extra burden, as I as the Boards of Tynwald have a Govern- said by the reductions imposed by this ment audit. One final remark. I feel sure Rating and Valuation Bill, to my mind this that it may well be, I am not certain, but will move further quicker than any other there may well be younger people in the measure which could be brought in, it will Island who are engaged in their own work, further the ambitions of some who want to but if they felt, in fact, that there was see centralisation, a thing to which I am some help in the evenings for their work, utterly opposed and which I would fight to that they might well be prepared to enter the very end. I would say to members that into public service perhaps ten years earlier if you want to see centralisation then than they are now prepared to do. I think support this proposed legislation here today, all the safeguards are there, they have been but if, like me, you are opposed m every listed by the Chairman of the Local Govern- way to centralisation and see it as the end ment Board. of good local government, then you must vote against the measure. Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I oppose this proposal here. I feel it is quite Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, just give me unnecessary as most members of local a moment to wipe the tears out of my eyes. authorities undertake the task not for any (Laughter.) I support this thing because remuneration they may receive, they serve quite obviously, as a Douglas member, I am not for the monetary considerations, but talking about an authority which has work for the good of their particular area and to do. In Douglas they have got seven they serve again because they are interested statutory committees to start with, they have enough in the affairs of their area and to got a finance board that meets once a week, want to take part in it. If members of local we are not talking ahout (interruptions) authorities are required to travel outside — I know we want some sympathy on it their immediate area, fair enough, pay on an occasion like this from the smaller travelling expenses, but certainly not, I authorities, they meet once a month, you would say, an attendance allowance. I think, know, if it suits them. We know in the in fact I know, that attendance allowances Local Government Board how often they certainly do not appeal to any of the mem- meet, because at times when we are waiting bers of local authorities in my immediate for sone observations on planning approvals area. They know and they are conscientious we do not know how long we will have enough to try and avoid the considerable to wait for replies from local authorities. strain that attendance allowances would The smaller local authorities are in a dif- make on the resources of a small local ferent position. The pride is there in the authority. Imagine a small one of, say, local authority, they would not dare go to £2,000 total income which would have to their electors and say in any case we are pay out £200 in attendance allowances, a going to claim expenses for popping over tenth of their income gone for their own once a month, In the Douglas area they members. It is all right the Chairman of have to meet the ratepayers too and they the Local Government Board saying that will have to explain away any excessive it is discretionary, but I think once the expenses they want. I know from my ex- precedent has been set they would feel perience of 17 years in the Douglas Town honour bound that they would have to pay Council, that an average, a very fair average. their members. They would have to pay. 100 meetings a year was what I was expected The resources of the small rural areas local to attend. All right, in my particular case

Local Authorities—Attendance Allowances for Members--Legislation to be Introduced. T114 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

I had a very generous employer, Her business. What I am saying is that there Majesty's Government. (Laughter.) We were was seven statutory meetings there to par- entitled to certain days off but, make no ticipate in, even now there is. All right, we mistake about it, I gave up an enormous got rid of the water, we did not get rid of amount of my own time. Because 1 could it it was taken off us. We got rid of the fire attend afternoon meetings 100 times a year, services, well we did not get rid of it, it the imposition placed on me was that was absorbed, but the electricity is still elected to stay on a permanent six to two there. We have still got the transport and duty, six o'clock in the morning I was down strangely enough these benevolent people there, up at 5 a.m. every morning and I who are looking after the horse trams for was down at my meetings for half-past-two. us are still making money and the people It was my time I was using and the only you are paying to look after your 'buses are time when I accepted any assistance from still losing money. This is getting facetious. the other side of it was if I had to go to All I am saying is that it is within the local a conference or anything like that, I could authority to say, it is within their power to claim some of the eight days to which I was say and I quite agree with some of the entitled as a Post Office person. This was remarks that have been made. I agree with the amount of assistance we were allowed, the principle that it should only be for eight days. We had to fit our duties in statutory meetings. Somebody should not between in order to participate. Of course come along for two minutes at the library there have been a lot of cracks in recent meeting and ask for payment for member's years about the number of postmen on the expenses. I agree with the general principle. Douglas Town Council. The only reason is if people attend statutory meetings, giving up that they are on duty at 6 a.m. in the their time when they have to come off work morning and they are off in time to go to they should be entitled to claim for expenses. the meetings, whereas their other colleagues Do not forget at the end of the day, the just have not got that privilege. Therefore. people who are going to vote whether they although they are honourable men and do it or not are responsible to the rate- would like to serve the community, they payers every three years, not every five years, would not have the opportunity to do so. every three years they have got to go back It was all right I know. Sir John has talked to the ratepayers and say yes I voted for about the days when he was there and the expenses for myself. Leave it to them and colleagues with him, and you know, it was see how many you will get, if you are going a gentlemen's club, a very nice club to to follow this lead. I know the Douglas belong to, as long as they broke up for Corporation will accept some proposal for four o'cicock so as they could get up to expenses to be paid. Although I did it, as I Hill Street for their game of cards every- say, for 17 years free of any charge, I think thing was fine. (Laughter.) Quite a pleasant I got a free pass on the 'bus, a free pass to time, you know, meet your friends. I know the Villa Marina. Full stop. Mr. Catlin, the one gentleman he knows only too well that hon. member for Middle, has indicated that if he missed his game of cards at four he was 20 years doing this sort of thing and o'clock, he would get up and excuse himself other members here in this hon. Court have in the middle of a debate. It is a pleasant served their time. Do not hold it against afternoon, it was an honourable thing to do, the people who are there now with a serve the town and we were delighted men problem on their hands and they are saying, of that calibre could do it. (Laughter.) For we would like some payment for this job the ordinary working person it was not because you people are getting paid up the possible and while I was in the Douglas road. I think if we agree that the principle Town Council I eventually persuaded the is there and leave it to the local authorities Council to have half of their meetings in to decide whether they are going to face the evenings-50 per cent. in the daytime the ratepayers on this problem, at least it to fit in with the gentlemen who wished to is on their own shoulders. sit there in the afternoon and doze off and the other 50 per cent. in the evenings so Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I am that a working man could get home, change looking for some consistency here over the his collar and get on with some of the whole question of remuneration for public

Local Authorities- -Attendance Allowances for Members—Legislation to be Introduced.

TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 TI 15 service, because it is, I think, obviously in- continue the way we have been is the fact consistent. Members of this hon. Court are that it has always been argued that as far paid expenses, if a civil servant appears on as parish commissioners are concerned they the manual workers' staff side or something do the job voluntarily, they are in constant like that he, in fact, is doing it in Govern- contact with the people they represent, it ment's time. If a non-Tynwald member is on does not cost us very much and, let us accept a Board he gets remunerated. Coming down the principle, they do a reasonably good job. to the local authority, if down is the word, I am not denying that, what I am saying at some may say up to a local authority, I do this moment in time is that if you introduce know that there has been a lot of criticism this legislation, they have got every right in Douglas about what many people call the to turn round and say we want paying for disproportionate number of postal workers the monthly statutory meeting the same as on the Douglas Town Council. We have just any Douglas town councillor has got, and heard the hon. member for North Douglas the clerks, what are they going to say? - explain why. I do think and I have heard you are going to claim £4 for attending a from several self-employed members of meeting, we are working at the present Douglas Town Council that they, too, moment in this part-time job for, you might regard it as an inequity here, that if indeed say, a pittance; they are not going to accept we introduce for the statutory meetings it and so it is going to snowball. We are some loss of earnings, because loss of going to get more people paid for doing earnings is the principle that applies for less work basically. As the hon. member for witnesses' wages for jury service and so on, the Council has said, there is more and if we applied it to the major local autho- more work being done by Central Govern- rities giving the option to them to introduce ment and I think this is going to snowball, it if they want, then we would have a better and if His Excellency will kindly read me choice of candidate, perhaps not a better the amendment put forward by Mr. Callin, choice, but a wider choice of candidate. the hon. member for Middle, I feel at this which I am glad to see is happening in the moment in time l would like to second it. elections on the 1st November in Douglas. The Governor: The proposal was that the Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, very matter be referred back to the Local briefly, I just rise because I think there is Government Board for further considera- a certain amount of merit in the hon. tion and report to Tynwald. member for Middle's suggestion. I would Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg like if you would kindly read to us his to second that. amendment that I think has gone forward. The Speaker: Your Excellency, I would I would like to say that I support the idea say when I first read this resolution, as it is put forward by my hon. colleague. I do not printed, I felt a feeling of opposition to- agree with this at all in principle. I agree wards it, and then I considered the position it from an entirely different point of view of a local authority member who has a than he is putting. I was inquiring the other certain amount of work to do and quite day of how many local authority members honestly 1 feel that very few people in the we have in the Isle of Man at the present towns of this Island realise just how much moment and there are somewhere about 140 work is put in by local authority members. representatives of parish commissioners. Last night I met the Chairman of the village commissioners and town councillors Ramsey Town Commissioners and I asked in the Isle of Man. Add that to the number him if things had changed since the day I of people we have sitting in this hon. was happy to serve with Mr. Swales in the Chamber and think of the population we Ramsey Town Commission. Did they still are representing —I think there is about have meetings until 11 o'clock at night, I twice too many local authorities in the Isle asked, and the answer was yes, that is a of Man. consistent pattern and that was the pattern in my day. You went on and on and on, Mr. MacDonald: Quite right. (Interrup- and this is not recognised at all by the tions.) public, they are not really aware of this. Mr. P. Radcliffe: Why I have gone along am talking about the larger groupings ob- in the past with the principle that we should viously, the village groupings, the bigger

Local Authorities—Attendance Allowances for Members—Legislation to be Introduced. T116 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 villages and the town groupings. I respect who are involved in as big a thing as the point of view of the hon. member for Douglas Corporation, they need assistance Ayre, Mr. Norman Radcliffe, that perhaps anyway. in the country districts it is a labour of love The Governor: Hon. members, I will first and I would hope out of this debate this put the amendment which was proposed by afternoon which 1 think has been construc- the hon. member for Middle, that the tive, Mr. Callin's point, Mr. Kermeen's question be referred back to the Local point, the Local Government Board would Government Board for further consideration indeed produce ideas, bearing in mind what and report to Tynwald. Will those in favour has been said here this afternoon. I do not please say aye; against, no. see anything wrong in recognising the sort of service that members of the bigger com- A division was called for and voting missions give to their communities. I believe resulted as follows:- - that it is proper to think about it in this day In the Keys- and age. Consequently 1 am going to sup- For: Messrs. J. J. Radcliffe, P. Radcliffe. port this resolution this afternoon in the J. N. Radcliffe, Catlin, Watterson, firm belief that the Local Government Cringle, and Mrs. Quayle — 7. Board will also approach it in a common- sense way and the matter will not be one Against: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, Dr. that is going to be abused in the future. Mann, Messrs. Lowey, Walker, Moore. Ward, Craine, Delaney, Irving, Mrs. Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, most of Hanson, Messrs. Kermeen, MacDonald, the things have been answered, the only Christian, Swales and the Speaker - -16. thing is this reference back. I would, with The Speaker: Your Excellency, the amend- respect, mention to my hon. friends that this ment fails to carry in the House of Keys. is only a proposal in principle. If it is 16 votes being cast against and seven votes adopted today, legislation will go through in favour. the Branches at which you will have the opportunity to amend as you see fit. This is In the Council— the time to do it. I think the message has For: Sir John Bolton, Messrs. Quayle, gone out, the principle is there that it is Crellin, Crowe, and Simcocks — 5. mainly statutory meetings. I do not think Against: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. there is any question of any parish com- Nivison and Kerruish — 3. missioners wanting to be involved in this. The ones I have spoken to have said it does The Governor: In the Council, five in not apply to them. There just is not any favour and three against. The Branches are comparison, let us be fair about it, the work in disagreement; the amendment, therefore, of the Douglas Corporation . . . fails to carry. I now put the resolution as moved by the hon. member. Will those in Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, on a point favour please say aye; against, no. of order. Is it not a fact that the Local Government Board are apparently already A division was called for and voting aware, and the Chairman is saying that he resulted as follows: - does not think any parish authority will In the Keys— apply. Is it not true that the Local Govern- For: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, J. J. ment Board already know this from the Radcliffe, Dr. Mann, Messrs. Callin, local authorities and the answer is re- soundingly no in the majority of cases? Watterson, Lowey, Walker, Moore. Ward, Craine, Delaney, Irving, Mrs. Mr. Moore: Some say yes and some Hanson, Messrs. Kermeen, MacDonald, say no. Christian, Swales and the Speaker 19. Mr. Anderson: This is correct. It is only Against: Messrs. P. Radcliffe, J. N. the places where there is a lot of time in- Radcliffe, Cringle and Mrs. Quayle 4. volved and I do not think the country members are interested. I do not see that The Speaker: Your Excellency, the resolu- we should be inconsistent. We feel that tion carries in the House of Keys, 19 votes people who attend these and hospital being cast in favour and four votes against. meetings get expenses, et cetera, and people In the Council—

Local Authorities- Attendance Allowances for Members--Legislation to be Introduced. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T I 17

For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Quayle, with plans to provide an approach road and Crellin, Nivison, Kerruish and Sim- pier-based facilities at Douglas Harbour for cocks — 6. a roll-on/roll-off floating link span unit to he owned, installed and operated by an Against: Sir John Bolton and Mr. Crowe Island transport company who wish to open —2. new daily passenger, car and freight facilities The Governor: In the Council, six in from a road/railhead at Hev.vham. to Douglas Harbour. favour, two against. The resolution there- fore carries. Hon. members, I suggest we Your Excellency, I think what the Court is adjourn for 20 minutes for tea. going to debate now is one of the biggest issues the Island has faced for a very long The Court adjourned. time. There is no doubt about it, as Mr. Speaker said today, this new Court is per- CIRCULATION OF PAPERS IN haps a lot more progressive than perhaps we THE CHAMBER. have been for quite some time. I think maybe because we are beginning to realise The Governor: Before we come to item that unless our Island does move and move 39 there is one point I would like to make, fairly fast, we will find ourselves, certainly and that is that papers should not be in the tourist field, in a backwater. All the circulated from individuals and organisa- Harbour Board is seeking is to assist this tions outside this Court unless they are first and that what is our lifeline and always referred to the Clerk who, if in any doubt, has been our lifeline, the sea, is kept open should refer them to the Chair. This is for efficiently with the vessels being used, obvious reasons. Otherwise it is open to modern vessels and certainly that the facili- anybody to circulate papers which may not ties that the Government are providing are be in any way relevant to the business up to modern needs. Now, Your Excellency, before the Court. In this particular case, a the Harbour Board presented in 1972, five paper has been circulated, presumably on years ago, the report to Tynwald prepared behalf of the Isle of Man Steam Packet by the British National Ports Council, of a Company Limited, to which we have no survey they carried out on behalf of the objection at all, but it should, as a matter Isle of Man Government designed to assist of practice, be referred to the Clerk of this the Harbour Board and Tynwald in formu- Court first. lating a policy covering the development of Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, it was the Manx harbours over the following 20 referred to the Clerk of the Court. years. That was the terms of reference. One Mr. Moore: Has it been circulated to all of their conclusions was that in a long-term members? development, the provision of roll on/roll off bow and stern loading vessels was The Governor: Well, I just happened to attractive and they forecast that by 1981 find it on my desk. the vehicle arrivals could reach about 37,000 Mr. Christian: No, Your Excellency, on per annum, and so in their report they the advice of the Clerk of the Court I was suggested the building of a platform between told that it should not be circulated in the the Edward and Victoria Piers, with base Chamber, it could be circulated outside. platforms for link-span bridges. Tynwald, I am sure today, will be amazed to hear that last year, and these are the audited figures, DOUGLAS HARBOUR - last year from April 1976 to April 1977, a ROLL ON/ROLL OFF BERTH - total of 93,140 vehicles, including motor- HARBOUR BOARD PLAN FOR cycles, were driven out over the piers of APPROACH ROAD, ET CETERA Douglas and this year from April to Sep- — APPROVED. tember, six months that is, and these figures The Governor: Item 39. The Chairman of are both Steam Packet and Harbour Board the Harbour Board. figures, checked, 75,519 arrived and departed, Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I beg thus in five years we have already passed to move:— the forecast for 10 years. Even if you halve That Tynwald is of the opinion that the the in and out figures, we have passed the Isle of Man Harbour Board should proceed figure that they quoted for expected in

Circulation of Papers in the Chamber. -- Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth— Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. T I 18 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

1981, and this trend is a common trend We all know the effect of the car today. In throughout the whole of Europe and indeed our own Island the effect of the car is with throughout the world and it is a very rapidly us, and in the United Kingdom most people expanding trend. I think that most members going on holiday today travel with the car here, we all travel, any members that have they have got in the garage attached to their been away out of this Island, on the Con- house. If not they travel in coaches. In tinent, in the United Kingdom, will see now addition, Heysham has available a modern that in virtually every port there is this railhead connected to the London/Glasgow type of vessel operating and operating very express line, Lancaster, with all that offers efficiently. This system is proven. It is so to our tourist trade and for the Manx efficient it has been proved to such an economy in general and to Manx industry. extent that companies that did not exist 15 and this railhead terminates right alongside years ago are now some of the biggest the passenger vessel berth. If you come by operators in the world. I would quote one train from London, on the express train company to start with and that is European north, through to Lancaster and the com- Ferries which started off practically from pany that has been negotiating with British nothing, and today it is probably the biggest Rail assure me that the facility from Lan- ferry operator, car and passenger, if not in caster straight to the pier, straight to the the world, certainly in Europe. I am fully docks will be available, a passenger will be aware of the cost of carrying out the com- able to get straight off the train, walk across plete plan as recommended for Douglas 84 feet, I think, one of our colleagues, Mr. harbour was one, which when I presented Delaney stepped this out recently himself, it, frightened most members, in fact it it is 84 feet, and you are on the boat. No frightened myself. Another fear at that time carrying your bags long distances. To return when the plan was debated in this Court. to Douglas harbour. The dual-carriage road- was the cost of providing such a facility, way which will be constructed on the south not only here but possibly on the coast of side of the Victoria Pier, alongside the the United Kingdom and Ireland, may result terminal building, will link up to the Edward in the Manx Government having to borrow Viaduct base, and is a small port only of the the necessary funds, which has happened in originally recommended decking which was between the entire Edward and Victoria the case of the Liverpool landing stage, and Piers. Originally we were proposing to go which stage, I am very sorry to say, is still right across with the deck, but even in not yet completed, and in that we, the Manx Douglas, some of the Douglas councillors taxpayers, have put an awful lot of eggs in have been suggesting an area for car parking one basket. However, my Board has come and assembly. All right, we cannot afford forward today to ask you to approve, subject the whole of that, what we are suggesting to a financial resolution coming to Tynwald is a roadway down from the base of the next month, a scheme in Douglas harbour viaduct alongside the sea terminal building. which requires a reasonable amount of down to the turn out on the Victoria Pier. money to be spent by Government on a At the seaward end of this roadway it is roadway which will remain the property and intended that the company will at its own under the control of the Isle of Man Har- expense, and 1 would like to stress this, the bour Board for the Manx people, as the Harbour Board have discussed it with these Act states that everything that we own is people, with the principals of this organisa- there for, and which will permit a Manx tion, the cost of this link-span which con- company to operate daily services with ultra- nects up from the roadway to the ship, and modern roll on/roll off type vessels. This they have said themselves they want nothing leads to the port of Heysham, which is from the Manx Government. They will operative at all states of the tide, Heysham, he responsible for pursuing, with us checking and on which nearly £4 million has been the designs, they will be responsible for the spent by the United Kingdom authorities construction, its movement over here, Its with no hand-outs from us, in providing connecting up and its operation. None of excellent passenger and vehicle terminal that cost will fall on the Manx taxpayer. facilities. This port lies only 56 sea miles from This link-span is designed specifically to Douglas,in comparison to Liverpool's 72, meet the requirements of Douglas harbour and only 5.5 miles from the M6 motorway. based on the records that my Board have

Douglas Harbour--Roll 011/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T I 19

been keeping over the past seven years. I year over the past five years we have intro- would like to say here that MacGregor duced new ideas and improvements for International, who are the makers of this passenger handling and we believe these ingenious system that is being proposed, said should be available 52 weeks in the year, to us at the boardroom when some members not 14 or 15. This is a thing which we are were there, that they had never been given very keen on doing, providing to the Manx a better set of carefully maintained records travelling public what we are also providing of tidal movements, problems in the har- in the summer-time for our visitors, excel- bour, speeds, waves, depth of water, drilling, lent facilities. At the same time, Your in any harbour they have yet had to work Excellency, I would hope to draw the mem- in, and we have very carefully kept these. bers' attention to the fact that unlike most We were able to hand straight over to Mac- Governments who own their own facilities, Gregor International all the information Douglas harbour, and I am speaking here of which we possess. At the moment the Douglas harbour, Douglas harbour pays its specifically designed link-span is at New- way now, which is remarkable. The costs, castle University, again at no expense to us, the money we are getting every year from being fully tested in the test tanks. They Tynwald for the Harbour Board outside of think there is no problem at all in actually Douglas is all spent on the smaller harbours using this, and all they are doing at New- which do not pay, and I can never see them castle is designing a link-span specifically paying although this year with our fishing to meet the requirements of the position industry, and here the Board would like and the berthage in Douglas harbour. to thank the Board of Agriculture and MacGregor International — well MacGregor Fisheries for their support to the fishing International are, in fact, the world's fore- industry, this year our income from fishing most designers and constructors of link-span will be considerably greater than it has ever roll on/roll off ship type facilities. Seventy- been in the past and so money will come five per cent. of all shipping, the freight into the Board's funds this year from the shipping in the world today is using Mac- two major fishing ports certainly of Peel and Gregor International systems. Sixty-five per Port St. Mary. This again to us, is a bright cent. of all the ferries in the world, all the future, the fishing industry. We can, if car and freight ferries in the world today Tynwald agrees today to us proceeding with and passenger ferries are using MacGregor this plan, which can have such a great designed systems. We have a company that impact on the manufacturing, and here in really know what they are talking about. It the manufacturing industry, the Industrial is an international company. It is building Advisory Council have been under pressure things all over the world, in fact there is from industrialists in the Island to provide hardly a harbour in the world, even some of the facilities, so much so that many indus- the Iron Curtain countries are using and trialists have said to us, without this facility paying for MacGregor designed systems, and you can forget expansion. They are being so this company did bring along an organisa- hamstrung by our method of lifting and tion that really knows what they are talking loading freightage in and out of the Island. about. Your Excellency, one thing I and my Someone said quite recently that. of course, Board have always been very conscious of the manufacturing freight movements are since serving on the Board, is the fact that about 80 per cent. in and about 37 per cent. a magnificent sea terminal, probably one of out, very, very small out compared with in, the best in the British Isles, which was built but the reason for this, so most of our with the Manx taxpayers' money, is used so industrialists tell us, and I believe what they very, very little in the winter-time, by our are telling us, they are the men that are own people when the weather is at its worst. working in the Isle of Man, they tell us that When the winter comes the Manx people without a proper system of putting the trudge down the Edward in the rain and things aboard a vehicle at this end, they snow and wind, without being able to use thie, magnificent facility that sits there dead cannot really ever expand, and we must for most of the year. My Board has 1 think, expand. If I take the one I know best of all, all will agree, in conjuction with another the fishing industry, the Isle of Man Fisher- Manx company, greatly improved the men's Association and the processors are catering facilties at that terminal and every fully aware of what Manx people are saying,

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. TI20 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 why should you put fish, herring and what- community, the manufacturer in the Isle ever else you can catch, be its sprats or be of Man, none of them can wait and wait it lots of things, why put them in barrels and wait whilst people consider. We have and cart them away in foreign ships at very got to get on with it. We cannot go on great cost, for very little profit to you, when waiting any longer. We would like to and you can process the lot in your own Island, we would like to for a long time, but we when you can put those processed fish into just cannot wait any more. We have got to container vehicles, refrigerated container get on with it. We can have this ready we vehicles on wheels and roll them straight think before next summer. I am not going from the Manx factory on to the boat. off to guarantee it because another thing that the other end, across to Hull or Felixstowe, was going to be built in two years has been and on to the Continent to the markets. six years building, but I do not think ours This is a much cheaper way of doing it and will be like that because everything we have a much more profitable way for the Isle of built up to now, everything the -Harbour Man. In other words, we use what we are Board has said will be constructed on time, producing to our own advantage and not to has been constructed on time. Even putting someone else's. Your Excellency, the tourist the little bridge down Castletown harbour. industry once again, I believe and I honestly we said it would be done and it was done a believe the tourist industry can get a great week before the due date and done by our boost out of the type of vessel being pro- own staff in their own way and efficiently posed by this organisation. Their first vessel done. Your Excellency, this roadway, as I for 1,200 passengers, 200 cabin berths, a have said, will be Government owned and very fine lounge, a modern lounge where completely Government controlled and this you can sit on a seat where you press the is common practice in all ports serving all side-lever and down you recline if you want local authorities or public authority boards to rest, fully air-conditioned throughout, throughout the world, that base facilities are with 130 cars or mixed cars and vehicles controlled by Government. This is what we aboard. This is the type of vessel we want, are proposing, but the link-span, whilst it a modern, up-to-date vessel with shops will be completely under the control of the aboard which it will have, providing what chief harbourmaster, times of operation, the British people have now come to expect it will have to be tied in with his require- everywhere they go. and cinema facilities ments for harbour operations, it will he the could be provided, in the lounges. This is responsibility of the operator to operate and what we want, I know the Chairman of the the cost of maintenance and looking after Tourist Board himself said to me recently, the system and the total responsibility no matter how we press and press for these safety-wise will be the operator's, and they sort of things, they are very difficult to get accept this as a normal responsibility for in the Isle of Man. Your Excellency, I feel any shipping operator operating this system. that the Island must move forward in this. At the moment, of course, in Douglas I am quite certain that if today you support harbour, this is nothing new because already the Harbour Board, we can conic forward companies operating in the isle of Man now next month with the estimate of costs and are operating their own cranage with the all being well, and this is the interesting Harbour Board consent and often on Har- thing, and all being well, we could have hour Board land and so there is nothing this system in operation by next summer new in letting the operator operate the not waiting four or five years — by next system, that is on the base facility that we summer. We are not going against anyone are providing. There is nothing new in this else's own idea, because it was only on 18th and this has been going on in the Isle of March this year that in the "Examiner" it Man for years. The Harbour Board. Your was reported, a meeting was to be held with Excellency, have always stressed for obvious our own Steam Packet Company, another economic reasons to any inquirers that have Manx operated company, they had said that come along to see us that they must seek they were seriously considering their next shorter routes to the Isle of Man. Routes vessel to be a roll on/roll of vessel, but they that will terminate near the motorways. have been considering it for a long time and Routes that will terminate near railheads I do not think that the tourist industry, I and preferably a route not competing, and do not think the fishing industry, the farming I would stress this, we have always stressed

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, El Cetera —Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T121

this, not competing with existing operations to pay for will cost more, I believe, than in the Irish Sea. Otherwise we are merely what Government will have to pay. Those competing to a port that somebody else is few members who unfortunately could not already operating from. This has been attend the demonstration at the Harbour around now for over a year, 18 months and Board could perhaps let my Board secretary one group of Manx people have looked at have a date when they are available and I this and said, here it is available. Here is will be only too pleased to discuss the whole the shorter route. Here is the railhead. of this plan with them. The model now, un- fortunately, well, I thought it had gone back A Member: How long will the journey to Italy, but it has gone to the Philippines take? where they are going to build three of this Mr. MacDonald: It is only 56 miles in- type of system. I am sorry to say also, Your stead of 72, so they should be able to run Excellency, that Mr. Creer, my old col- it across, well, I would say in under the league, is absent today and he said that he three hours. On the three hours or under fully supports this scheme. Mr. Victor the three hours, it will depend on economic Kneale's comments when he came down to cruising and other things that come into see it, were worth recording I think in the this, but they could do it quite easily. The debate today. He said he will look at it Harbour Board have always stressed, as I when he comes back, do not worry, to see say, this need for shorter sea routes. We if I said what he said. He said: I am fully strongly recommend Tynwald's acceptance authorised to say that I am sure some of of our proposals which we believe can only the money my Authority has earned for the be in the Island's interest, and it is the Island this year, and — he said — do not Island's interest we must think of, not how not forget it is £700,000, will be very well is it going to affect Willy Bloggs or Johnny spent in providing this capital facility which Jones or somebody else who has got a lorry, he is quite convinced will benefit the whole who has got this or that, it is the overall Island community. He ended up by saying: Island requirements my Board are thinking Just as my Authority are doing. (Laughter.) of. I think the Harbour Board for 200 years The final thing was wonderful and when it have thought of this. There are people who was finally complete as he left the board- once said to us, and when you look back room he said that despite all those self- through our records, and our records are appointed experts who said, when the take- 200 years old in the Harbour Board, you over of the post service was suggested, it see things being said there no, it is not will never pay, he said the same people will worth building, forget it, but the men of say this is no good either, and all you have vision went ahead and built it, and if they got to do is prove to them that as the Post had not done it there would not have been Office has paid, so the Manx harbours can a puddle in Douglas harbour today. Douglas pay, as Douglas, as I say, is virtually paying, even, they said at the time: Why bother? which is excellent. Your Excellency, I would We have already got - - well, at that date like to close my own little bit. There is one Castletown and Peel and Derbyhaven and other thing, you have all got a piece of Laxey, why bother? Fortunately the Tyn- paper and I think I should refer to this. It wald of that time, whether it was an elected was a paper written by the Steam Packet Tynwald or not an elected Tynwald, even- and Mr. Christian has distributed it for tually they said: Go ahead. We feel that this them . . . is in the Island's interests - and I am very pleased, Your Excellency, to be able to say Mr. Christian: Not for them, I have today that, to me, this is an example of distributed it myself. really free enterprise coming along, and we Mr. MacDonald: I see, well, Mr. Christian believe in free enterprise in the Isle of Man. distributed this. Unfortunately it was written coming along and saying, to Government. in August 1976, which is a fair time ago, and all right, we will go into this, we will put a lot has happened in the world since 1976, our money where our mouths are, we will but even getting round recently, as I said put our money into what is normally pro- today, we should perhaps have sent a note vided if Government will go with us and of congratulation to the German Govern provide a part of the facilities. I would like ment. (Laughter.) A lot has happened in a to say that the facilities that they have got year, but this piece of paper which I think

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. T122 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 most members have got, there are a few ment of cargo would be considerably things which, whilst I would not say they greater if the correct facilities were here to are dishonest, I would say they are very handle it. I would again draw the Court's misleading and are not altogether factual. attention to the fact of another little com- At the bottom of the page, the third para- pany started up with vans. I think they call graph up on the first page, 1 see that at themselves Island Express Deliveries, and that time when they did their valuation the what is happening? Suddenly our freight company says, and I am not criticising this companies found that there was an awful company by the way, because they have lot of stuff going out in those vans and worked very hard over a long time, and the being delivered to anywhere you like in the men in the fleet, and after all my family northern area of Britain and in some cases served in this fleet for three generations, straight south, a service on wheels, which they have served the Island very well, but is what all the modern world is about. they must move with everybody else. They Further down on this page, paragraph 3, must do. We cannot hold back. They say they say that: "The 'Manx Maid', intro- in that paragraph, "At current price levels duced in 1962, was the first car ferry to such a vessel suitable for the Manx trade operate in the Irish Sea." It took a long would cost not less than £7 million." I have time to get that one, but we got it. "The said here that no-one is asking them to buy advantage to the tourist industry is clearly one if they do not want to. No-one is illustrated by the growth in car traffic from talking them into anything or telling them 4,500 cars in 1961 to 25,000 in 1976. Also what to do. They go on, further down, to motor-cyclists have doubled to 10,000." I say, in the bottom pargraph: "After detailed have already told you, last year the figure appraisal by the company, including consul- in and out was 93,000 and you can halve tation with the Isle of Man Harbour Board, that, so you can see how much bigger the our cargo service was extensively moder- whole traffic trade has developed and how nised a few years ago with the conversion fast it has developed. There is one other of the `Peveril' ". Your Excellency, I have thing. I think the last big paragraph, been on the Board seven years and it was they first of all deal with the cost, they certainly never discussed with me, but all I . . reiterate our already expressed views can say is this, the reason the conversion that port charges in the Isle of Man are took place was that at that date they had are much higher than Manx operators pay lost 60 per cent. of the cargo trade into and in ports in the United Kingdom and on the out of the Isle of Man. There was no option, Continent." This I would completely and or go out of business, and this was a tiny utterly refute. The Isle of Man Harbour little firm that had started up, Manx-owned Board are in very close touch with all the and operated. A tiny little firm which had harbours of the British Isles and on the gone into the market of the containers, Continent. We know the charges. We know which was not supposed to be of any value, the deals that are made. We know that there but came to stay and it has since developed, are no published charges. We know that, instead of being lifted by a crane it has and we cannot get from our own operators wheels stuck underneath it and rolls on. On exactly what they are paying in other ports. the next page they say, in the first para- but as we know the port operators so well graph: "It should be borne in mind that and sit on committees with them, we know there is an imbalance of trade on the Isle exactly what the deals are and how much of Man route where approximately 83 per has been paid by whom and for what. So cent. of the total cargo is conveyed to the this one I can refute completely. Our har- Island and only 17 per cent. from the bour charges are not greater, and in fact in Island." This has altered quite consider- lots of ways less, and this year the Harbour ably of late and I am pleased to know that Board have said we are freezing all cargo both the fishing industry and the farming and freight charges. We have frozen the lot. community have started to export more to There are no increases in cargo and freight earn more money, and the industrialists charges and we only hope that everybody have told us, yes, the reason for this is they else will freeze theirs. You must remember cannot expand unless they have the modern that the Harbour Board did not increase its facility to expand with. That export move- charges at all for 40 years. What a happy

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T123 time everybody must have had in that Mr. MacDonald: It will be further than period. I have only got this, unfortunately, ours, sir, about 18 miles on the run, but the so I have not had a lot of time to go thing about this is that these companies are through it. There was one other thing, Your freezing fares. As I showed you the other Excellency. On page 3, they say, "Overall, day, Sea Link are saying in order to benefit therefore, it is difficult to understand the the British people on their travels all our claim that end-loading would lead to a sub- fares are frozen. I am waiting for somebody stantial reduction in the cost of car con- else to freeze them too. veyance." They quote, I see here, a P.A. A Member: Are they frozen here? Economic Survey. This P.A. Eeconomic Mr. MacDonald: I do not know yet, sir. Survey was done, with all due respect to the It has not been announced. I think that we present Chairman of the Finance Board, the can contain the fares and this is all 1 think former Chairman said in this Court at the I can say. I think fares can be contained time, the young gentleman that came to for a while. Nothing is sustained static and consider the harbour aspect during this I cannot guarantee the new operators will economic survey, one of my staff having undercut as much as we would like to start spent a week stacking up all the paper for with, but that will be a matter for them him to look through, he never arrived. He and their commercial commonsense. On telephoned and said, well, what can you tell page 4, they mention there, of course, that me? I cannot get down. He then went away general cargo did fall in 1974, and then they and wrote a two-page report on it. So, I said say as far as this company is concerned. in the Court I was not accepting a word of I know that it fell as far as the company what he said. I still do not accept it, if that was concerned because the other companies was the economic survey that he had done increased. If somebody is taking your trade in the Harbour Board. I could have sent the from you then you are bound to lose trade. dog that lives down there into the office to I think that anybody in any business, even do it and got just as much sense out of it. my friend, Peter Craine, if he found that The whole lot was stacked up after a week's somebody else was selling the bread that he solid work, facts, figures, detailed costs, the used to sell, then obviously his trade was lot, and he could not even be bothered to falling, but the other man would be in- come down and look at it. He then tele- creasing and this is what is happening. phoned after it was printed and said he There is one other bit on that page, in the would come back and have another look at next-to-the-last paragraph, and this is re- it—after the report was printed. markable, I thought, for the Steam Packet Mr. Nivison: Would you care to comment Company to say this: ". . . day-trippers are on the prices that are contained in it? of little value compared with the long-stay visitors" — says the report — "and con- Mr. MacDonald: Yes, the prices or the sequently what may be good for the com- price structure. These prices on page 3 - pany may not be good for the Island." Now well, now, I will look at these, it is very every day-tripper, and let us face it, I am interesting this. "Liverpool or Ardrossan to told when I have discussed it in other places, Douglas—Steam Packet Company—£12-80." how good they are to the Isle of Man, That is the winter rate remember. It is fl5 because they give us £5 per visitor. (Inter- in the summer. (Interruptions.) I am sorry, ruptions.) Every day-tripper is worth £5. this was 1976. Liverpool to Dublin, about Every day-tripper that comes in this year, £2.40 dearer for twice the distance. Liver- and it was a disastrous year for the trippers, pool to Belfast, the boat sails past here and they did not come in any big quantity and then goes on to Belfast and then up the so we have lost that money. The company Lough. All right, that is dearer, £4. Holy- says, on page 5: "At this time the company head to Dun Laoghaire, a Sea Link one, is already so committed financially that it £18-40. All these charges are comparative. would not be feasible to undertake the The distances are much greater than our burden of ordering one or two roll on/roll company is operating and what you have off vessels, or to pay for the construction of got to remember . . . the special link-span berth." This may be so, Mr. Irving: What is the distance from and I can understand it. If T were a com- Holyhead to Dun Laoghaire? pany that had put all the large, very large

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. T124 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 sum of money that the Government had Continent; nearly nine million people loaned them into the Mersey, I would not moving through Dover; high efficiency with be in a fit state either, financially, to do a a very rapid turn round. I think 1 should lot, and, as 1 said earlier on the sorry saga say this, that there is nothing to stop one there, it is not finished yet. I hope it is commercial company discussing with another finished and I think the Chairman of the commercial company, operating facilities Finance Board would be with me and say owned by one, and this is exactly what has as far as I am concerned it is finished, but happened in Dover when each company I do not think it is. It is hard luck this, it built facilities — now all the companies are is the usual trick of consulting engineers, using everybody else's. It depends what kind advising consulting engineers and then get- of boat gets in, which link-span is available ting others in to look at it and at the end or link is available and the boat coming in you end up with something that old Mr. goes straight to that even if it was built Brown, who used to be the harbour engi- by P. & 0., so Sea Link uses it, even if it neer would have built, put it up and it would was built by Sea Link, so European Ferries have still been there. The summary, Your use it. I believe in the commercial organisa- Excellency, I think I can just finish on this: tions getting together if they want to do this, "The introduction of a roll on/roll off but the Harbour Board's responsibility. system would not result in cheaper passen- Your Excellency, under the Act is that we ger fares or freight charges." Well, what I must provide operators with the facilities have said to this will go a very long way they require. You met one or two of the towards it and if everybody else in the world principals when you were down there, the has proved it — Your Excellency, I know, organisation that is being set up came for- was in British Columbia recently watching ward with a scheme with their own money ferries roll in and out, and I know the last and said they were ready to go. It would be secretary of the Tourist Board, the late very, very wrong for this Government, in Leonard Bond, with all his experience of the interests of the Isle of Man, tourist tourism, with all the knowledge he had of trade and the lot, if we were to say we are tourism, came back from Copenhagen where sorry, we cannot go ahead with it for he had watched boats operating, and he said another two or three years, you must wait to me: This is where we are losing. These for the other chap to catch up with you; this people are wiping our feet from under us is not free enterprise. "(3) The introduction with the rapid movement of people, vehicles, of the roll on/roll off system might lead to cars and trade—and Len Bond knew his the curtailment of some of the company's stuff on the tourist trade. "(2) The intro- services, notably day trips and charters." I duction of a roll on/roll off system would do not like this paragraph at all. This is the not result in either passengers or freight sort of thing we have had recently when being handled more speedily." That depends they said, we are closing the 'buses down, on the operator, very much so on the we are taking the steam railway off, we are operator. The turn round time expected is closing the electric railway down, this is all an hour, in and out. On the short cross- the pattern. The Government is up against Channel routes the boats are shuttling, the wall. If you do not do this, we will do which is a way of doing it and they can that. I do not expect the company to try to afford to do it there. Let us not forget the deal with Government in that way. "By passenger road through Dover has been building our specialised type of car ferry we built up entirely through roll on/roll off. have relieved the Government of the need Dover was only handling some 10 per cent. to construct new and expensive link-span of the passenger/car/cargo freight service of berths." They have not relieved us of the the United Kingdom when they suddenly cost of borrowing the money for the other decided, as very long thinking and hard one, and that is costing a lot more than the thinking chairmen they have there, and they link-span is going to cost. But at the end of suddenly decided the whole of Dover would this: "Having regard to the fact the com- be roll on/roll off. All the side-loading pany's fleet has been purpose-built for the berths would go and this last year Dover Island's requirements coming from several has handled over 65 per cent. of all the ports . . ." Well, this is, I suppose, tongue movement in and out of Britain to the in cheek —"without any Manx Government

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth --Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T125 assistance, such a policy as now contem- well. The national scales across, of course, plated could be retrograde to the interests of are very high, and it is very difficult when the Island and the company if implemented you are operating into a port, which is as at this time." This, I think, is the crux of Liverpool is, an enormous open commercial this letter. It could be detrimental to the port, very much in the hands of the dock company, this company that has sent us labour force, very much indeed. I would this, or we got a copy of this evaluation say that operating into other ports — and today. It could be detrimental to them this is why shipping companies operate into unless they wake up, unless they are pre- what are already Government owned and pared to move into the modern era of controlled ports, or Government organised shipping. I believe that the majority of the ports such as Heysham, which is a rail port, House of Keys — and, 1 hope, Tynwald the system there, a dock workers' scheme today — will say to the Harbour Board, there, is much more beneficial than the free get on with it, produce your plan next open port. 1 am quite convinced that the month, the detailed costs. I will ensure, and company itself would not consider operating my colleagues will ensure, that these costs into a port completely in the grip of a very, will be pinned so tight there will be no very strong dock force. wiggles and jiggles at the end of it, there Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, I think will be no coming along for piles and piles that this issue is by far the most important of more money. I can guarantee today that which has come before Tynwald, certainly if we go out to a firm, the firm we will get since I have become a member of it in the in to do it will be a firm we know will last year. I think it is one that we need to complete the job on time. People will be consider very, very carefully. May I just asking, no doubt, who are the company. at the very outset say that I had until very What we have got is certain directors of recently a very small financial interest in the the Ronagency Company, which set an Isle of Man Steam Packet Company, I example of the container berth usage, with owned £100 worth of shares, but those I other persons in the Isle of Man, and the have disposed of so I no longer have any minute Tynwald says to us, today, go ahead, equity in the company at all, and all I ever they will form a new Manx company. had was £100. Ronagency, which most people are quoting at present, Ronagency is still operating, Mr. Anderson: You sold them in time? Ronagency is a little cargo company, it has Mr. MacDonald: When did you sell got to continue operating and it will con- them? tinue operating. But, as I say, that company, its directors with others have the finances Mr. Christian: I sold them today so as to to do the job and are quite prepared to do be able ... (Laughter.) I will tell you why 1 it. I would guarantee, as they are a Manx- bought them if you want to know. When I based organisation, I do not think they will came back after seven years in the army as let us down, and 1 will make certain that an empecunious law student I was advised what is put in will work. by the late Bertie Killip, the bank manager in Ramsey, to buy a few shares in the Isle Dr. Mann: I beg to second. of Man Bank and the Steam Packet Com- pany. He said, if you do that you will get Mrs. Quayle: I just want a point of clarification. Could you comment on page 2 far better overdraft facilities, and you only on the manning scales and the labour cost? need a few shares. The same thing with the Steam Packet Company, I had £100 in Mr. MacDonald: The manning scales, of both until the Isle of Man Bank was taken course, vary very considerably between here over, and I still had £100 in the Steam and across the water. I would say that here Packet Company. I have never attended a the dock force in the Isle of Man are very, meeting. I have in no way been asked to very good. The small force we have got represent them or been briefed by them, or under the control of the Harbour Board are anything at all. I think, as I said before, so excellent. They work very well indeed, they let me get that out of the way. Just let me are under one of our Board members, the come back — I think this is by far the most dock work scheme is operated by him and important issue before us. I think it is one the operators and the men are working very that we would be very, very foolish to take

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. T126 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

in a superficial view and an impetuous way, it could be improved, well then, let us have and as some people seem to wish, just to talks with them, let us represent to the have a dig at the Steam Packet Company. Steam Packet Company what our views are. I think we want to go into it all very, very My very good friend from East Douglas, carefully indeed. They want to be quite sure has got a resolution coming on later which that in years to come we can come back I understand would be perfectly acceptable here and we do not have to answer for our to the Steam Packet Company. I think they sins in this Tynwald for having messed have already indicated that, and it was on around with the arrangements for transport, record a considerable time ago that they the external transport to the Isle of Man in would accept a director from Tynwald, and a way which is damaging to the Steam we should try to work more closely with Packet Company, and thereby damaging to them. When this thing was first mooted -- everybody else in the Isle of Man. Because, let us just understand, here we are being believe me, there is only one organisation asked now to take a most vital, important that could bankrupt me or everybody else decision for cur whole future of the Isle of in business in the Isle of Man, and that is Man, on the strength of what? On the the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company. strength of a letter we received from the We all have an interest in it to that extent. Chairman of the Harbour Board about a I am no advocate for it, there is no-one week ago, from having had about a half- ever the years, probably been more critical hour's exhibition of a link-stand equipment of many aspects of the way the company's shown to us on Thursday afternoon or affairs were run than I. have been. I dare Friday morning, and the speech which the say a lot of the criticism comes from the Chairman of the Harbour Board has just fact that really their virtues are also their made. Just on the strength of that, and that disadvantages because they always have alone., we are asked to make such a vitally been so very conservative, so they have important decision. We have had no details, remained conservative even in the design of he tells us at the end of his speech, here their boats in my opinion; they are not up is a new company. It is not even an existing to date to the 1977 standards. They have company that he is talking of dealing with. been a very responsible company, and let These people are going to be given --- in the us be quite clear about that from the start. first place they will receive the benefit of They are a vital company, sea transport is a grant of about million to construct a vital SO the Isle of Man. Here we are on roadway leading to where the link-span an Island sun•ounded by sea, and all our equipment is to go, and they will have the business, all our business of the Island, exclusive use of it. All this was stated on depends on people and goods being able to Friday by Mr. MacDonald. It was stated get here and get from here back, principally, then that if anyone else, the Steam Packet to the United Kingdom on reasonable terms or anyone else wished to use this link-span and in a safe and reliable manner. The equipment then they would have to negotiate, Steam Packet Company has a fantastic and they will be entirely at the mercy of reputation of safety, they have never had the company as to what facilities they any sort of an accident of any kind of any would get. importance since the Ellan Vannin, and Mr. MacDonald: I could do with the what was that? In 1912, I think, was it not? Steam Packet crane now, and they do not A Member: In 1909. allow anybody to use it. Mr. Christian: In 1909. I think that they Mr. Christian: Have they refused? are entitled to have these things said for Mr. MacDonald: Yes. them. I do feel there is an attitude amongst certain members of this Court to want to Mr. Christian: Well, why do you not deal with such an important issue as this on make representations to the Steam Packet a superficial, niggardly way of let us have that they should allow other people to use a go at the Steam Packet Company. Well. their crane. I am not saying the Steam do not let us forget, if we are having a go at Packet are in any way thoughtless, not at the Steam Packet Company, it is also having all. What I am saying is that I think we a go at the Isle of Man and the business of would be very, very foolish to deal with this the Isle of Man. If there are ways in which issue today and give carte blanche today to

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth--Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, El 411 Cetera-- Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T127 go ahead with a scheme of this sort only because having read it it seems to me a very coming back next month because of the reasonable argument they put forward. We financial grounds on the very limited infor- start off on the first page. It says: "The mation which is available to us. Because principal claims for the roll on/roll off think a number of other new members that system are that it would provide both a .1 have spoken to, rather like myself, have faster and cheaper method of transporting very little knowledge of what "ro/ro", "lo/ passengers and cargo to and from the Island, lo", "ho/ho" and all the rest of it, "so/so" so we must examine these claims and see is all about. to what extent the roll on/roll off system would fit into the pattern of our Island Mr. MacDonald: Where have they been traffic and the effect its adoption would have living? on the company. This note is not intended Mr. Christian: I did ask you, with all due to be a general criticism of the roll on/roll respect, Mr. MacDonald, last year when I off system, but purely an evaluation of it first came into Tynwald if you would supply with specific reference to the traffic to and me with all the information you could. from the Isle of Man. There are two basic What you sent me was a roll on/roll off types of vessel utilised on roll on/roll off booklet which just has a list of addresses services, one being for carat) only with up and things in it which was of no use what- to a maximum of 12 passengers, thereby soever. Quite recently, I did find quite relieving the operator from having to com- recently, and I obtained recently a copy —I ply with the stringent and expensive regula- found the Steam Packet Company had made tions applying to passenger vessels. The an evaluation of the roll on/roll off system other type is the multi-purpose unit which with particular reference to Isle of Man conveys cargo and passengers. It is clear that routes, and having obtained this and spoken it is the multi-purpose type which is being to one or two other new members of Tyn- advocated for services to and from the wald they asked me could they have copies Island." That is the type which the Chairman of it. So this morning the Clerk of Tynwald of the Harbour Board has referred to in this was good enough to make duplicate copies instance. "At current price levels such a of it. I was told 1 should not hand it out in vessel suitable for the Manx trade would the Chamber, so they were handed out after cost not less than £7 million to build." They we broke up at lunchtime. So I am sorry if say that to renew the last ferry, the "Lady there was any confusion about that, and I of Mann", at the present time would cer- apologise. I thought it was essential that this tainly cost over £6 million. My learned should be in the hands of every member of friend from East Douglas, again, when we Tynwald so that at least the facts are here. were across some weeks ago making various and no member can say afterwards if he investigations for the Tourist Board, we goes ahead with this present scheme —1 am went through Ramsgate and had a run - not against it entirely, I want a lot more we had lever been on a hovercraft before, information before I can make up my mind again we were seeking facts on which to what Iam going to do. What I am seeking try and form a proper, considered opinion. is a lot more basic information which 1 think We were quite impressed with it, and is essential. Let us be long-headed and cool have found out since that that is the S.R.N. and treat it as a business proposition. What 4 which carries about 280 passengers and 55 businessman would make a decision to cars. There is a new model now under con- spend a Ei million and give exclusive rights struction, a hovercraft, which will be one- to a company on the information which has third as long and as third as big again, and been presented to us up to the moment? in every way would seem to be ideal for Anyway, I got this evaluation from the the Irish Sea route. It will take about 550 Steam Packet Company, and they simply passengers and about 120, I think it is, cars. supplied this to me and I copied it for the It is all very well until you come to the benefit of all members. I would like, if I may, to refer to it. I apologise if I take too price, and the price of it is £14 million. much time, but I think all members will So it is quite horrifying, really, the cost of agree that 1 do not normally waste very these things, and one can well believe that, much time of this Court. If you start on as they say, the cost of building a roll on/ page 1, perhaps, we can go through it roll off vessel would be £7 million. "The

Douglas Harbour--Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera_. -Approved. T I 28 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 policy of the company has always been to Mr. Christian: Well, you have not, be- provide a fast and efficient cargo service and cause the Chairman of the Harbour Board a passenger fleet, purpose built for the said he had only just received his copy and services we provide to maintain and develop had not had time to read it. the tourist industry. After a detailed ap- praisal by the company, including consul- Mr. MacDonald: You have given me less tations with Isle of Man Harbour Board time to study the paper you have presented our cargo service was extensively modernised on behalf of somebody than I have given a few years ago with the conversion of the you to look at the whole thing. `Peverir for cellular loading, the purchase Mr. Christian: Well, you said you had it, of the 'Conister, erection of derrick cranes, actually, years ago when I offered it to you warehouse alterations and the purchase Of at lunch-time. You said, well, I had that the necessary ancillary equipment. We long ago. operate cargo sailing five times a week, the Mr. MacDonald: 1 had it this morning. vessels sailing at night and discharging by You were dishing them out here this day. There is no delay in the carriage of morning. You gave me one in here this cargo and we have potential capacity to morning. carry considerably more cargo than at present." They say: "We have potential Mr. Christian: Lunch-time, Mr. Mac- capacity to carry considerably more cargo Donald. 1 think I ani trying to explain the than at present. It should be borne in mind basic facts regarding roll on/roll off, so that that there is an imbalance of trade on the at least we will know, and we will have • Isle of Man route, where approximately 83 it is important, apart from anything else, Per cent. of the total cargo is conveyed to that we should have this on record so that the Island and only 17 per cent. from the no-one can say, oh, I did not know this, in Island. It is essential, in view of this fact, three or four years' time. that in comparing our freight charges with The Governor: I think we can assume that those on other routes, the revenue from a hon. members have had time to study this full return journey, that is United Kingdom paper now. port to destination and back to United Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, if memory Kingdom port, be taken and not just the serves me right, I seem to remember last freight charge from Liverpool to the year that this was sent to us all by the Isle Island. As all cargo is unitised, it will be of Man Steam Packet Company. (Inter- apparent that large numbers of containers ruptions.) It was sent to the last House. and flats have to be returned empty and consequently when considering traffic flow, Mr. Christian: New members have not one only requires to be concerned with had it though. imports to the Island. In continuance of our Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency. on a policy of development of the tourist industry. point of order. Is this in fact a defence of we decided in 1959 that car ferries were the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company, c:;sential but having regard to the fact that because we have not, I gather, received a the preponderance of our traffic was, and Memorial from the Isle of Man Steam still is comprised of foot passengers and not Packet Company that this resolution in any motorists, the decision was taken that such way detrimentally affects their interests'? If, vessels must be complementary to the other indeed, as the hon. member alleges, their units of the fleet. Of the 250,000 visitors to interests are detrimentally affected, why have the Island in 1975, approximately 70,000 we not had a Memorial to that effect'? accompanied vehicles, while 180.000 did Mr. Christian: How would the Steam not." Packet Company know that this was going Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, may 1 please to be detrimental to their interests? (Inter- ask on a point of order, are we discussing ruption.) I understand from my hon. friend, the resolution on this paper? This paper is the Chairman of the Harbour Board, that not part of the . . they have been given no information what- Mr. Christian: It is a description of roll soever about the proposal to expand. on/roll off facilities. The Governor: Hon. member, may I ask Members: We have all read it. you to address yourself to the motion.

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 TI29

Mr. Christian: So that it would seem that the Tourist Board for the early and late it is quite clear from this document that the season. Steam Packet Company have certainly given Mr. MacDonald: I was not going to themselves -- they have given every possible mention this, but I will. (Interruptions.) thought to the question of the facilities which could be provided, and whether they Mr. Christian: I have no knowledge of should or should not be provided, and all it whatever, I have no knowledge of the the commercial consequences of providing Steam Packet Company's affairs . . . these facilities. Do not let us forget that we Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, on a point in the Isle of Man, as I said at the begin- of order, my resolution is coming up later ning, are very, very dependent on the Steam on or next week, but it seems to me it is Packet Company. That is my interest. My being debated without my having the privi- interest is not to defend the Steam Packet lege to speak on it. Company at all. My interest is that I do not Mr. Christian: Well, it would be very want to see the Isle of Man left without an foolish in my opinion, Your Excellency and adequate, efficient transport system, and hon. members, to treat this matter in a that could happen. You know, it nearly superficial way, this vitally important matter happened in the 1950's when Mr. Jay — was to the whole future of the business of the it not —got in touch with the shareholders Isle of Man. It is something which, if it of the Steam Packet Company and offered goes ahead - all I would ask is that it them £2 per £1 share. should be held over for proper investigation. Mr. MacDonald: He could, they were We are told that if this is put through today worth it. they will only come back for a financial resolution next month, and then, behold, the Mr. Christian: Of course, but that is what company will be formed, the boat will pre- I say, Mr. MacDonald, the company have sumably be bought, everything will be done been most responsible financially. At that and it will be in operation by June of next time in 1957, the capital of the company, year —can you believe it? We are told it the issued capital of the company was is so. It is far too hurried, far too im- £750,000, and the sales value of the ships petuous for a matter of such vital impor- must have been nearer £10 million, and on tance to us all, in my opinion. Do not forget, that £750,000 nominal capital, that is, issued this company which will have the exclusive capital, they were in those days paying — it will own the link-span and only by about 5 per cent. or 6 per cent. They were arrangement with that company will anybody never until this year paying more than 10 else, the Steam Packet, Ramsey Steamship per cent., and 12; per cent. this year. Again, Company, or anybody else, be entitled to it was only a nominal capital. They have use it. They will have the control of it, and been a most responsible company. They are this company will have one vote, they will not in any way —1 am not suggesting they only operate in the height of the season, are perfect, certainly they are not. In lots two trips to the Isle of Man per day. of ways when I was supporting Mr. Delaney's resolution later on when he Mr. MacDonald: Who told you that? suggests, and 1 understand it, the Steam Mr. Christian: Mr. Duke, one of the Packet Company will accept that we should directors of the company, told me. I asked have representation from Tynwald on the him specifically and he said it would only Steam Packet board. But let us be quite operate two trips to the Island a day. They clear; this company, the Steam Packet, they are taking 1,200 people in the middle of the have, except for the money which has been season, and the most, the biggest number of issued, lent through the Steam Packet Com- people they could bring on one of the pany to pay for repairs to the floating busiest Saturdays, for example, would be landing stage at Liverpool, all of which the 2,400 people. They say they would operate Steam Packet Company have accepted re- a service through the winter. Well, if they sponsibility for, and undertaken to repay in did I would imagine — please understand I full with interest. They have never received have no brief-1 say what I think the Steam any grant of any shape or kind, or asked Packet Company would do. I would imagine for one, other than the arrangement with the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. TI30 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 will be delighted to be relieved of the re- we not be far better advised to have the sponsibility for running a very onerous Steering Committee on Transport investi- service which must lose them a lot of money gate into not only the shipping but also through the winter. If they once did that the possibility of hydrofoils, hovercraft. the because this other company had been whole lot? formed by Ronagency or whoever it is, if Dr. Mann: That has already been done. they once stopped the winter service we might have an awful job to get them to put Mr. Christian: How recently? it back again unless it was fully subsidised Dr. Mann: Ten years ago. by Tynwald. Mr. Christian: Ten years ago, 1966, that The Speaker: They are subsidised now. is well out of date now, that is well out Mr. Christian: To what extent? of date. The Speaker: To the extent of the Post Mr. MacDonald: They were still good for Office contract, without which it would not the Manx Electric Railway. (Interruptions.) run. Mr. Christian: I do not wish to do Mr. Christian: Well, that is not sub- anything. I admire the enterprise of the sidised, that is being paid for business . . . Harbour Board, but let us all make sure that what we do in the end is in the best They could withdraw it and The Speaker: interests of the Isle of Man. put it by air and do better. Mr. Christian: This is a matter which -- Mr. Delaney: I did not want to speak on this because of the resolution I have coming well, you could not call that a subsidy before this hon. Court, but it has been because they are in business ... brought into play. There seems to be a Mr. MacDonald: Not much! thing here going that everyone is digging at Mr. Christian: But I must say, quite the Steam Packet Company. Well, I am frankly, I am appalled, really, by the sort going to stand up and defend them. They of anti-Steam Packet Company attitude of have a record second to none in the shipping this Court. There is a major Isle of Man field. I am not interested in other than the company which has always been extremely welfare of the Isle of Man, that is why the responsible, has served the Isle of Man very 24 members of the Keys and the hon. mem- well, and it seems to me a number of mem- bers of the Legislative Council are sitting, bers seem to have the attitude of if they not in the interests of a private company. can perhaps stick a spoke in the wheel of We have the finest seamen in the world, the the Steam Packet Company, that will be Manx; the tie that you wear as members great. I think they will come, if they do it of Tynwald has a ship on it, you live by --- I will forecast that the time will come the sea, we always have done. We are when they will regret it. I have nothing for celebrating 1,000 years of government which or against Ronagency, or anybody else. The was established by people who came by the scheme we saw on Friday, I thought it was sea. We have to decide what our future is, admirable, and I commend the Harbour and our future is the sea, not a company, Board for bringing forward this scheme, but the sea itself. What we have got to do please understand. All I am asking is that is have the best method of transporting we do not go into it so impetuously, let us the cargoes from the Isle of Man, to the just weigh up all the pros and cons of this Isle of Man, and the people from the Isle matter. We are being told, vote for it now of Man and to the Isle of Man. that is what and we will have it ready for next June. we have got to do. We have got to have Well, it is fantastic. You see, after all, I the best method of shipping possible. and understand that as recently as last August the best method of shipping is the modern Executive Council, having been asked by method of shipping as far as I am concerned the Industrial Advisory Council, recom- in this day and age. As has been pointed out mended that the Steering Committee on by the hon. Chairman of the Harbour Board, Transport be asked to accept the respon- we are lagging behind. The resolution I have sibility for an inquiry into the transportation coming before this Court has been super- and distribution systems to and within the seded. This is one of the penalties of playing Isle of Man. Well now. if that is right would your cards close to your chest and waiting

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T131 for something to happen. I was not prepared suggest we get rid of the Tourist Board and to wait, I want to do something, if nothing hand it over to the directors of the Steam else but debate the long-term future of the Packet Company, and let us leave it for sea in relation to the Isle of Man. As things them. Because that is what you are saying, happen, it has been moved before my very if we are going to wait for them to move. eyes, the Steam Packet Company has come The Steam Packet Company as an institution up, roll on/roll off has come up, and the is wonderful, but the Isle of Man is more Harbour Board has said, yes, we should go important to me. I hope hon. members wilt ahead. So my resolution, as far as I am support this and let us get something concerned, is null and void because I have moving. We talked of the dead wood this got what I set out to do. Hon. members of morning, that is the railway, to try and the Court might say, it was in the manifesto; improve tourism in the Isle of Man to give yes, it was in my manifesto. I have seven them something to be here for. Let us now items in my manifesto, and one of the key go into the modern day and age, let us go ones was to improve shipping of tourists and for roll on/roll off. for the Manx residents to and from the Isle Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, practically of Man. I am glad to say, gentlemen, that every hon. member who has spoken on this three of the particular things in my mani- very important issue has .stressed the vital festo have been brought to fruition, and I importance of transport to the Island. It is hope this is number four. Because if we are nice to hear this principle being reiterated, not going to stick to the things that we but it is one that has been accepted by promised at Election time, how do you Tynwald for many, many years. The hon. expect anybody to support us in five years' member for Garff, Dr. Mann, just held aloft time? Roll on/roll off, as far as I ani con- a copy of the Transport Commission's cerned, is coming. When it is coming is up Report made in 1966. In that particular to this Court. The sooner the better as far group of recommendations attention was as the Manx people are concerned. The time directed to the need to integrate services is now and the place is here, let us vote within the Island as far as internal transport for it. We are not voting for this amount was concerned, and certainly to look at the of money now, facts and figures will be question of Government participating in the brought and we will have a second bite of management of the Steam Packet Company. the cake in a couple of months time, no Nothing was done about it at the time, but doubt. Maybe it can be done by 1979, I do since then Tynwald again has accepted the not know, but I would like to see, if it could be clone, to be done. There is too much said importance of this principle of transport, about old companies in the Isle of Man. and they appointed the Steering Committee, Old companies are wonderful if we were and the Steering Committee were charged living for old companies; we are living for with the task of examining the recommenda- the Manx people. The railway this morning tions of the Transport Commission with a was a typical example. I would love to ride view to making recommendations to Tyn- on the railway if I had the time, the electric wald. The Steering Committee, of which my railway, I love it. But I do not wish to ride hon. friend, the hon. member for Peel, is a for ever on the Isle of Man Steam Packet member, and a very active member I would Company. I want sometime to be able to get say, a very valuable member, have been so from "A" to "B" as quickly as possible with busy with 'buses, with electric railways, with my family going on holiday, and the other steam railways, that they have not had time way round is more important. For someone to get down to the vital question of sea transport. I think I am very truthful, and coming from England or Ireland to the Isle my hon. Chairman will vouch for this, in of Man we want the cheapest, the most saying that time and time again this question efficient and the most modern methods has been raised at the Committee stage by possible. As far as I am concerned, roll on/ the hon. member for Peel; we must get roll off is in at this time. If someone wants round to sea transport. But we have not to say to me that we have got to wait for been able to get round to it because we have the Steam Packet Company to let us know been charged with what must be regarded when they are prepared to increase the by Tynwald as more urgent remits. Today, possibility of tourism in the Isle of Man, I sir, we discharged one of our last tasks, that

Douglas Harbour--Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved.

T132 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977

concerning the steam railway, and as a here I quote — "of a reasonable amount of Committee member I think I would say this money". He did not indicate what that without fear of contradiction of any of my reasonable amount of money is, but from colleagues—next on the list for examination my perusal of the National Ports Council by that Committee would be sea transport. Report, it will certainly be of the order of I think that my hon. friend, the hon. a minimum of LI million. I do not wish the member for Peel, would not contradict me hon. member to comment on that, but on that particular point. The resolution that perhaps in his reply he could confirm or we are at present debating convinces me deny that that would be the absolute mini- more than ever that it is high time a group mum, El million of public money. on behalf of Government got down to the The Speaker: What is that compared with examination of this all-important subject. £.3-1 million for Liverpool? (Interruptions.) Because where are we going to land our- selves? Where are we at the moment? We Mr. Kerruish: I did not interrupt the hon. know that we are involved to the extent of member for Peel, and I have sufficient con- advancing £2 million in relation to Liverpool. fidence in his good nature to hope that he will allow me to finish my few remark; Mr. MacDonald: More than two, possibly. uninterrupted. There w...ill be 4'1 million on Mr. Kerruish: Well, it may be in excess our installation, and £?,- million on equip- of two. We know that according to a ment to be advanced by a company of which resolution — and I am not going to debate we know very little. I do not say that it, the hon. member Mr. Delaney has got critically, I am not questioning the credi- on the Agenda — from this I learned that bility of the consortium at all, but has the we have quite a considerable shareholding Harbour Board had any details as to their in the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company, track records'? Have they had any projected and we are seeking, if he has his way in expenditure and receipts under this par- the resolution, to have representation on the ticular heading? This is most important, hoard. Yet here, in a third particular direc- because we have to realise, the Isle of Man tion, it is proposed that we now support a cake is only so large, and how is it going proposition that will mean the expenditure to be cut up'? Because a company that is of large sums of Government money so that going to spend, out of their own pocket, some company — and I am not going to say something in the order of million should, anything detrimental about the company, I would think, have gone into their arith- they may be excellent gentlemen, good luck metic very, very carefully indeed. But who to them — to own, install and operate a sea is going to pay for the servicing of the V,: link on Harbour Board property. Just where million plus that we are going to spend on are we going? We have to accept that our installations? This is a question that has although we are seeking to expand our not been answered. Is that to be spread economy, the potential of the Isle of Man over the populace of the Island, or is it to in every respect is limited by virtue of a be extracted from some of the operators degree of actual size and our population. I within the harbour? This is something I think we want to look with caution upon would like to know. It may be that roll on/ the question of panning out in all directions roll off has got to come. I do not profess to without examining as to whether our efforts know enough about this to be able to give as a Government are going to be co- a definite opinion on it. I know that my ordinated. I accept that from what the hon. hon. friend - - and I call him a friend, the Chairman of the Harbour Board has said. hon. member for Peel — thinks very strongly the proposed company are prepared to pay on this particular point, and I think it for this link-span installation which he told should be examined in depth. I think it the Court, in the course of a few minutes should be examined in conjunction with the ago, would cost almost as much, maybe company — and I have got no connection more, than the actual expenditure that will with the isle of Man company at all— it more than be involved by the Harbour should be examined in conjunction with the Board on its approach road and ancillary company which has provided the Island's equipment. The hon. member stated that lifeline for over a century. This makes the approach road and the related equip- sense. Here we have a company that em- ment would call for the expenditure -- and ploys a tremendous amount of Manx people,

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth--Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T133 that has, as Mr. Delaney says, a wonderful well-known quotation from Shakespeare's record behind it in peace and war. I think "Julius Ceasar": "There comes a tide in the it would be altogether wrong for this affairs of men which, taken at the flood, Government to embark upon this expendi- leads on to fortune . . ." et cetera. We did ture without having the closest co-operation not catch the tide on that particular occa- in relation to this particular project with sion, but on this occasion let us ensure that the Steam Packet Company. I am not a we deliberate with caution and then act with pro Steam Packet Company man, I am an decision in what we believe to be the best Isle of Man Government man, I am a Manx interests of the people of the Isle of Man. people man, and I am talking in what I I formally beg to move the amendment that believe to be the interests of the Manx I have indicated to the Court. people. So 1 would feel that this is an Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, I . . . appropriate matter to be referred to the Steering Committee. Indeed, the very terms Members: Are you seconding? (Laughter of reference cover the point made by the and interruptions.) hon. member for Peel, and bear in mind that Your Excellency, I do not he is a member. Accordingly, l am formally Mr. Lowey: rise to second the amendment, I rise moving that the resolution be amended as , suggestions put follows . . . (Laughter.) It is all right— to oppose strenuously the forward from the usually sane remarks know I enjoy this little bit of cheerfulness and ideas that enamante from the hon. that hon. members display when I move an member for Council, but this afternoon amendment, but if amendments are in the it is one of his flights of fancy. He interests of better government, I am for did stress that he was not a Steam Packet them every day of the week. I am moving man expressing a Steam Packet point of this in what 1 believe to be the interests of view, but as a Manxman in the interests of the Isle of Man. I am going to move this all the Isle of Man. I would hope that both particular amendment that the resolution sides of this argument, or discussion, this should be made to read: "That Tynwald is afternoon will accept that the spirit moving. of the opinion that the Steering Committee should examine the proposal that the Isle of emanating behind the proposal of the Har- bour Board is in the best interests of the Man Harbour Board should proceed with Isle of Man, the economy, and the people plans ..." So that would mean the insertion after the word "that" — "The Steering of the Isle of Man. I think to delay —and Committee should examine the proposal that is precisely what we would do if we that the Isle of Man Harbour Board should accept the proposal of the hon. member for proceed with plans to provide an approach Council—to delay is to go backwards at a very fast rate. We have delayed long road . . ." et cetera. enough. There is one thing that has come Mr. Irving: And report when? out quite clear in the speeches of the two Mr. Kerruish: Wait a minute. If any hon. speakers who have opposed the resolution member wishes to table a further amend- so far, that is, somehow that there is an anti- ment and name a deadline for when we Steam Packet feeling emanating. Nothing should report, as a member of the Com- could be further from the truth. I have mittee, 1 would be happy to accept it. It is heard nothing this afternoon in the very no use talking about it next week, let us be reasoned arguments put forward by my sensible, let us look at this as it is. As the Chairman, there has been no complaint hon. member for Ramsey said, this is a very about the Steam Packet as to its service big matter; I think the decision we will take both in the past and at present, but what in respect of this particular proposal will we have said is that in this resolution we have an impact upon transport to and from are opening a new outlet to the Isle of Man. the Island for at least the next generation. This is not in competition with the Steam So it behoves us to exercise caution and Packet, this is a new outlet, and as such I display wisdom in respect of this. I never firmly believe should be welcomed by all. forget the fact that in the concluding words There was some talk earlier on about the of the Transport Commission's Report, of fare structure. It is no open secret, as the which the hon. member for Douglas West Chairman said, that some of our main com- was secretary, they wound up with that petitors elsewhere have frozen next year's

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. T134 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 prices. This year, I would assume, on the a backward step if it did not say to the 1 st January, the £15 ordinary fare is going Harbour Board now, you have produced the up to £17; that is an increase of over 15 per goods, this is a case of where private enter- cent. On an average the day return fare, the prise and the Government can work to- day excursion fare is going up from £4 to gether for the benefit of all. Surely that is £5.50, an increase of £1-50, which is 37 per something that we should take up with both cent. But I do believe that the £4 fare is hands at the earliest opportunity. not true, it did rise to £4.50 before the The Speaker: On a point of order, season, so it has gone up it. The percentage Standing Order 76, is the amendment before would be what, about 23 per cent.? the Court or not? A Member: Twenty-two per cent. The Governor: It has not been seconded. Mr. Lowey: Twenty-two per cent., all Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency .. . right, I will accept that. But these are the Can we just resolve this sort of fares that will be in operation on The Governor: the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company point of order? boats as from the 1st January; those are Mr. Swales: I second it, Your Excellency. the facts. Roll on/roll off, you know, is one The Governor: The amendment is before of those catch phrases that immediately the Court. identify a person, anybody in public life, be Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I, they on the stage, in politics, or whatever, strangely enough as it may seem to the they like to have a catch phrase, and it Court, and the hon. member for Peel, I am immediately identifies them. My Chairman, supporting him here this afternoon. The I think it is fair to say, you have only got only thing is that I feel this debate is of to mention roll on/roll off, whether it be in major importance, there are people who Ronague or in Bride or anywhere on the Isle want to speak and at this late hour of the of Man, mention roll on/roll off and im- day it is with difficulty, and l am just mediately Roy MacDonald is the picture wondering should it not be postponed until one conjures up. Prophets, if you like, of next Tuesday. There is a lot at stake here. any particular form are often decried in 1 would just say, as far as I personally am their own land. You know, prophets in the concerned, there is one group who possibly days of yore were decried; modern-day have an axe to grind in this, but as far as prophets - he will not like my calling him the agricultural industry is concerned, the this— but modern-day prophets similarly method of getting in and out of the Isle of get treated. However, I say this, that sooner Man as far as livestock is concerned, it is or later the message will get through about almost non-existent and I do feel that we roll on/roll off. 1 hope that the message has just cannot go on accepting the situation. got through by now. I would like this There are many things that I might have debate to be concluded in a cool and sober liked to have said, but I do feel the hour is manner, not heated either artificially, or going on, there are many people who would conjured up, it needs to be looked at in a wish to speak on this and I am just won- cool light. 1 believe, in the interests of the dering if it is the wisest thing to continue Isle of Man, in the industry --- my speech as to get a conclusion to this very important I wrote it, and I wrote it last Thursday debate at this hour of the day in view of going down to the south of England on a the circumstances. train has been more or less superseded by the words of my Chairman. It just goes to The Speaker: Your Excellency, I hope the show the close liaison that we have on the debate will continue and conclude, because Harbour Board that we can think alike al- this Court is in no mood for putting off though we may be miles apart. But for the decisions and I feel, Your Excellency, if you interests of industry of the Isle of Man, the will permit me to speak at this stage, that growth of the Isle of Man, for the future the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. Christian, of the Isle of Man, I think, as Mr. Delaney, is absolutely right when he says that this is the hon. member for East Douglas, summed one of the most important issues that we it up, our future interests are instrinsically have been asked to consider in the life of tied up with the sea. There are no two ways the present House, and that we should not about it. I think the Island would be taking treat it in a superficial way. I heartily agree.

Douglas. Harbour—Roll On/Rol1 Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 TI35

Your Excellency, I have not approached it traffic, overwhelmed by traffic to Jersey and in a superficial way, I am going to support we know that Jersey of all the British resorts the resolution and condemn the amendment has enjoyed the most profitable tourist which is nothing but a time-killing device to season of all. Now that shows that the cake kill the whole idea. When I say that I have can be developed if, in fact, there is an given the matter consideration, I will say I access and if there is will to use that access. have been an enthusiast for this form of We have been told about tourism and I have development for a long period of years and mentioned the Jersey side of tourism, but, when, four years ago, I learnt the Harbour Your Excellency, may I say this also, to give Board were going to visit installations in a personal experience in relation to access Scotland to see for themselves what was in the Isle of Man, I have had complaints happening, I asked the Chairman if I could from constituents who have said to mo, accompany the delegation and pay for my- relatives who try to come to the Isle of Man self and see for myself. I did and I was from the London area have been told, we very grateful for that opportunity and from have no agency for the Isle of Man, well, thereon any convictions I had for the need we have an agency, but we are not in- of this particular development were abso- terested. They do not want to know. Why lutely confirmed and I was hooked on the did they not want to know? — because it idea of roll on/roll off. Your Excellency, we would appear, and perhaps I will stand are given today a proposition that the Island correction on this, that the operating com- should have a service which private enter- pany does not give any commission. If that prise is going to operate, we are merely is true, Your Excellency, are we really fully going to give it an access line, between utilising the markets that are open to us? It Heysham, a port not unknown to the Manx is dreadful that if I want a holiday with a people and the Isle of Man. We are all car and I am offered Jersey, Ireland or Eire, aware that Heysham in recent years has had call it what you will, and the Isle of Man the benefit of the motorway going up past, as alternatives, nobody is going to sell me it also has the benefit capable of being the Isle of Man, we are not in the market. utilised of a comparatively good waiting So, the market is capable of expansion, the access for any steamship services that might cake is capable of being increased in size. emanate from it. Certainly by comparison If tourism is again to be considered, and I with Liverpool, palatial. The shortness of think it should be, one has to look at the the trip is ideal for a roll on/roll off opera- tourist reports. The earlier report of 1955 tion, because, let us face it, a roll on/roll off and the later report of 1969 and both are, operation is in fact a wasteful operation in well, shall I say hesitant in some ways about regard to space, because every vehicle on a the present service. The 1955 one found that roll on/roll off operation has to be on considerable overcrowding took place on wheels, and the great benefit comes from the steamers during the height of the season speed of turn round and this, of course, is resulting in considerable inconvenience and the element that can make it of vital effect discomfort of passengers. They recom- and of a profitable character, but viability mended various improvements to try and of the company's operation is not really our improve the quality of service. I am not concern. Our concern is the well being, as going to labour it, I merely mention that has been stressed by earlier speakers, of the this was the Commission's finding. In 1969 Manx people. Let us remember when my the Commission paid tribute to the work learned namesake says there is only so much done by our local carriers, but they said cake to go round, that one must not always this: "The tourist industry of the Isle of accept the fact that the cake of today is the Man benefitted to a very significant degree cake of tomorrow. I have here, and you in 1969 through the introduction of a new may have seen it in the members' room, the maritime service between Fleetwood and growth of ferry services forces a ramp siting Douglas operated by Norwest Shipping change says harbour committees, and that Company Limited. It is greatly to be hoped comes from Jersey, and what does it mean? that the difficulties that have arisen since It means that the complete success of the will be successfully overcome, so that this roll on/roll off enjoyed by Jersey is, in fact, new company will fulfil its declared inten- causing them to build a new installation tion of carrying more and more people to because they have been overwhelmed by and from the Island and in opening up

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. TI36 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 markets which, to a degree, have been closed say that the very, very — I have difficulty in since the withdrawal of the Fleetwood ser- finding words to describe the blunder that vice in 1962." Opening up markets, hon. has been made at Liverpool landing stage, members, stated by your own Commission which will cost over £3 million, that is whose report you adopted. The cake is there costing the Manx taxpayer. It is being to be enjoyed and it is a much bigger cake guaranteed by the Steam Packet Company, than we are looking at this present day in but at what rate of interest? It is costing respect of tourism. The hon. member for far, far more than ever this will do and yet Glenfaba has rightly pointed out that agri- we regard it as necessary and I think we still culture is working under a dreadful handi- say we must have an access point at Liver- cap, a handicap of importing goods at high pool, no question, but equally we must have cost, a handicap of, frankly, hardly being an access point in the Isle of Man and an able to export goods at all. While this is exit point for roll on/roll off systems, and let going on, roll on/roll off services are us face it, I am quite sure that if these operating between Northern Ireland, taking systems develop, they will be capable, as the livestock not only from Northern Ireland Isle of Man harbours are capable, of being but Southern Ireland, into Scotland, the used under licence by other people. I do not same thing into Welsh ports and you have a think it is past the ingenuity of the Harbour service which is effective, which is on wheels, Board to ensure that that will happen. So, goes to its destination, is human and every- what are we trying to do? We are, body engaged in the agricultural industry Your Excellency, not harming the Isle of benefits. We are working under the most Man Steam Packet Company. We are not dreadful handicaps in agriculture. Fishing harming their biggest competitors, Ron- access to markets, the points stressed by the agency, who came in. let us face it, because Chairman. Now light industry. God help of the difficulties, we are encouraging light industry if the Chairman who moves another access route to the Isle of Man. all these amendments is moving amendments Mention was made of the early car ferries. in relation to every project that is coming I happened to be on the Tourist Board in to him for blessing, because it will kill them the days when they were first discussed. We all. They will all be still-born, but he is not tried to sell the idea to the local operators. that way in light industry. He encourages It was rather like the task the hon. member, light industry and I give him full credit for the Chairman of the Harbour Board, has it, and I know that he would be the first to had in the last four years of bringing this admit that industry in this Island is crying one to the floor of the Court, because we out for this service. They are appalled by were getting nowhere. We even offered to the charges. We have been told of charges finance the purchase of a vessel in those today, of increases in charges. A simple days to try and get the system into opera- illustration of charges, Your Excellency, tion and see whether it would work. There relates to bringing to the Island one three- was no feeling for it at all. We came in ton lorry, empty, £120.15; one five-ton lorry, miles behind the rest of the Irish Sea area empty, £175; one seven-ton lorry, empty, on that particular form of transport and £245, and yet on the Steam Packet's own today we are coming in miles behind on this, sheet which has been circulated to you, you and even though we are so conservative in will find that sort of weight, 18 tons in fact, our attitude here, we are still hesitant about can be conveyed elsewhere for £80 to £90. what we are doing. Now, Your Excellency, You cannot do it to the Isle of Man because I think the ideal thing about this, I have said you have not got the boats to do it and it before, it is a partnership, if you like. consequently you get this sort of charge between private enterprise and Government related to industrial requirements of every and I would only say this, too, that as a kind. So, Your Excellency, where are we? result of being with the Harbour Board I What are we talking about? We are not learnt that all the major Scottish ports had talking about the Steam Packet really, we or were installing roll on/roll off four years are talking about the Manx taxpayer and ago and a ship, very much the same size as the benefits that are to accrue to him the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company through a new pattern of operation. It is vessels, the "Lyon", was the one in question possibly going to cost f-t- million. I would at that particular time that we saw in

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T137 operation, was in fact doing the work of be provided here in the Isle of Man. The four ships, and this was acknowledged by European Economic Community have been the shipping company and the harbour providing funds for Scottish ports to provide operators who said that she had positively these facilities for some years past and we replaced four on the routing that she was must go along with them. As I read the operating, and why, because she had the resolution at the time I felt that if in fact turn round ability to get her in and out of a private company was prepared to put their port in little over half an hour. Not the money into providing a boat and also pro- hour even that the Chairman claimed, he viding the equipment necessary, it would be was being again conservative. Aware of all difficult for we, as a Government, not to the advantages of competition, can the make some contribution at the stage end, Court resist today, in the face of what we if you like, for the road and the ancillary have been told about rising costs of coming cafe equipment and all the rest of it. Again to the Isle of Man when every Irish Sea I thought, well, Heysham is a much shorter operator is offering either steady costs or sea passage. It is close to the M5 or the some delightful little package deal which M6 so there is obviously good communica- involves, you know, a little spin-off to the tion in the hinterland and so on. I agree passengers, maybe Customs-free or what all this. have you, or a little bottle of "champers" The Speaker: May I ask, on a point of free, they are all in the game, in the business order, did the hon. member reserve his of selling? We are in the business of driving remarks when seconding the amendment? people away by a very high cost structure The Governor: I assumed that he had and I would suggest that it will be bene- done, Mr. Speaker. ficial even to the existing companies to have the competition of yet another com- Mr. Swales: May I continue? pany, because it is through competition we The Governor: Please do, sir. will get success. Costs, we have been told The Speaker: Is he allowed to, Your this afternoon, are horrifying, but to me the Excellency? costs that are being proposed for next season's operation are horrifying when I try The Governor: I assumed that you had to look at them through the eyes of the reserved your remarks. potential customer and think of what it is The Speaker: Do Standing Orders permit going to cost to bring a family to this Island it, Your Excellency? to enjoy what we can offer here, and we can Mr. Swales: I must confess I did not, but offer a lot to them, to make their life so I hope I may continue. (Interruptions.) much happier. That, Your Excellency, brings me to a final point. This represents The Governor: In that case I am sorry, a challenge to the Court. This Court has, sir, but Standing Orders are quite explicit on this week, I think done more for the this. I had assumed that you had reserved Manx people than has been done in a great your remarks. number of years. I am sure that this is the Mr. Swales: You are missing something to sort of challenge that will put the seal of your benefit, ladies and gentlemen. success on the work of this week, because Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, in broad here we are facing up in reality to the needs terms, I would wish to support this re- of the Island, to the need to keep the cost solution, but I have certain reservations of living down, to the need to ensure that about it, and the reservations are these. It all the industrial life and the well being of is coupled with a company, it does say, we our people is being looked after and this is are all I think, all of us would agree that strangely enough the one resolution that can roll on/roll off for the future is something achieve it more than anything else. 1 beg that will come, but I would prefer the to support. Harbour Board or a Government agency to Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, when I make these provisions that could be used came into the Court this morning I certainly by various companies that wish to use them, then accepted this particular resolution in whichever company it should be, not ex- principle. I believe that in the passage of clusively for one company. We have been time roll on/roll off facilities must certainly told in the resolution that a company will

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera —Approved. T138 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 be formed and will be possibly an Island certain materials which link up to something company, et cetera. I do know, Your Excel- which is going to cost us a lot of money. I lency, that in the past, in the very recent have no reason to doubt that if one com- past we have had some gentleman, I think pany could do this, perhaps another com- his name was Egee, and he was going to put pany might be able to do it. (Interruptions.) a hydrofoil service on for us to run very I am not talking about the Steam Packet quickly to and fro. We even saw some Company. I believe whether you are running Russian hydrofoil pictures and we saw some harbours, we are talking about the . . . American pictures of various wonderful Mr. MacDonald: You run your airports. ships that were going to come. Mr. Speaker did make some reference to the Norwest, Mr. Nivison: Please. This is the kind of and many of us would remember the ex- remark that you expect from the hon. perience of the Norwest where we had the member from Peel from time to time. I "Stella Marina" and many of us will recall hope your memory is long enough, but in the hundreds of people waiting in Douglas, 10 years' time we may find that we have in the pouring rain, and the "Stella Marina" provided something for the exclusive use of we regret had broken down and was unable somebody. (Interruptions.) Excuse me, I am to take the people back and we had to take not entering into debate, Your Excellency, emergency measures to take these people I am stating what I believe, that what we back, and subsequently it faded away. This are doing at Liverpool is for the general is one thing, Your Excellency, we all have ships that may come to the Isle of Man, enthusiasm for, of course we are for roll and if there is a company that are carrying on/roll off. Of course we are, but let it be passengers to and from the Isle of Man, for whoever the Harbour Board thinks are there is not as it happens, there is only the capable of and able to do it. That is right, Steam Packet Company involved in that. do not let us think we are doing it for a Over the years there had been other com- particular company. panies involved in the conveying of pas- sengers and freight to the Isle of Man and Mr. MacDonald: I have never been in- they have not been able to stay the distance. volved in anything that would not work. All I am saying is that I hope that any Mr. Nivison: I am not suggesting you facilities that are provided at the pier may have, sir, I am just merely saying we have be for general use rather than for the got the opinion from what has been said exclusive use of any particular company, already that there is a ship lined up with a lest we have a similar experience to that we certain number of cabins and a certain had with the "Stella Marina" or Mr. Egee. number of spaces for cars and the ship That is my contribution, I will vote for it. which is going to do it for less money than Mr. Watterson: Your Excellency, having hitherto ... listened to this this afternoon, I did not Mr. MacDonald: Nobody has said that. really intend to speak on this matter because I thought that the provision of some sort Mr. Nivison: They may not have said of facility like this in the Isle of Man was that . . . almost a matter of commonsense. Due to Mr. Lowey: On a point of clarification, my occupation outside Tynwald, I had the Your Excellency, the point being, of course, privilege fairly recently of producing a fairly to the hon. member of Council, we could at substantial directory which had roll on/roll the Harbour Board produce just what he is off ports listed in it and i did notice when asking for, but it would cost over £4 million going through it that the Isle of Man was more. What you are asking us to do is to conspicuous by its absence. As far as I can provide, to go to the Treasury and ask them see the debate this afternoon has turned on to provide another million just to provide to two factors which I would not have the facilities. expected. One is it turned to the Steam Packet, and the Steam Packet does not Mr. Nivison: I am not convinced, Your figure anywhere in this resolution at all. Excellency, that that is so. What one com- pany is capable of doing — whether I have Mr. MacDonald: They are not even here. been dreaming, I heard that some company they are not interested. is prepared at their own expense to buy Members: They were.

Douglas Harbour---Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road. Et Cetera—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T139

Mr. Watterson: Secondly, we have had with the plans, and they will still have to discussions about researching the matter. come back. I would think we would be would have thought that by now, as the negligent in our duty if we did not try to Harbour Board has been involved in this create facilities which would bring Douglas particular issue for a considerable period of in the Isle of Man into the 20th century. time, and although I happened to be on the Steering Committee, I would have thought Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, 1 am well that if we would have taken the matter up aware of the fears that the hon. member for again to investigate it we would have been Ramsey, Mr. Christian, has, and similarly treading over grounds that somebody else the hon. members on the top shelf, if you has already adequately covered, and I do like, Mr. Kerruish and Mr. Nivison have. not see much point in doing that and I am well aware of the fears that they have wasting time, and I might add money, in and often I would go along with the hon. the process. Therefore I would have thought member, Mr. Kerruish, when he moves an that the provision of this particular facility amendment, because nine times out of ten in the Isle of Man, irrespective of who is there is often a middle course that one can going to use it, is now of importance. The steer to the benefit of both parties. It often second thing is that, if we were talking happens that way. I would suggest today about something to do with airports, I am that this is one time when we have to step sure every member of this Court would be off that fence because the time has come quite delighted to learn that the Airports for us to make a decision, and we are going Board were trying to encourage somebody to make this decision this afternoon for roll else to operate another air route, that is on/roll off facilities. I think it is absolutely between the Isle of Man and somewhere pointless, and it has been pointless through- else that was not previously covered. This out the whole debate this afternoon, mem- appears to me exactly what is happening in bers quoting prices of this, that or the other. this particular matter. If Ronaldsway had It is utterly and absolutely immaterial to to put in some other small piece of equip- the debate itself. As has been said, this is ment to facilitate the 'plane getting in or a very important debate this afternoon. out, then everybody would be delighted with because it affects every person on the whole that. As I understand it on my trips to the of the Isle of Man in one way or another. Harbour Board about this matter, that even Directly, it effects every individual. We are if the whole project does indeed fail, then discussing this afternoon the feasibility and the mechanical end of it can be moved the possibility of providing a different, elsewhere and the part that is being built modern, new method of transport to and by the Harbour Board is of considerable from the Isle of Man. There is only one use for other work with vehicles and goods. thing that members should have done to do think we have got a tremendous this resolution and they should have taken amount of red herrings, I am not too sure this resolution and had a look at what was exactly why the Steam Packet suddenly on their Agenda paper and said to them- tends to be supported as if it was under selves, what is wrong with it? I would attack, because as I understood it they did suggest that had you done that in your own not figure at all in this particular motion. time, without the heat of any argument, I would warn to a certain extent about one you would have realised there is only one appearing, as a Government, to support thing wrong with it, and that point has monopolies. It is not even as if the company already come out in various manners this which is wishing to provide the alternative afternoon. The point which is wrong with service comes from Brittany or Norway, it this resolution is the fact that it is not ours. is intending to base its operation, if I under- It is not Government owned, this link-span. stand it, here in the Isle of Man, so we are it is going to be owned by a company so not supporting business outside the Island. you have not got the direct control. That It is therefore of importance that, as I understand it and always have, competition is all that is wrong with the resolution. tends to stimulate business, and tends to Think through that a little bit further and stimulate efficiency, and if it is possible at there are times when, as I say, when you all in this motion, which after all only gives have to get off the fence and make a the Harbour Board the right to proceed decision and we are going to make this

Douglas Harbour RollOn/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. T140 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 decision this afternoon to go for roll on/roll Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I have been off, and the reason, can I suggest, that quiet all day but I have listened with having looked at the resolution and found tremendous interest to a very good day's the fault with it, you look for the answer debating in many ways, and this debate has to the fault and it stares you in the face to my mind been a prime example of the as plain as a pikestaff. You are connected usefulness of a declaratory resolution. As from the end of the link-span to the harbour we are getting towards the end of the and to get off the link-span you will have debate, and we have just heard two excellent to go on this new access road, and if you speeches from the hon. member for Rushen have to go on to the new access road and the hon. member for Middle, which immediately whoever is operating that link- tie up to a certain degree the details of the span to get off it is under the control of declaratory resolution, all I would like to do the Harbour Board to some extent. So we is to point out to this hon. Court that it have a situation then that Government is a declaratory resolution. Therefore, the today, can accept today to have a roll on/ details which are to follow it will not be roll off facility provided for them, for the an automatic principle. We have listened, Government, for the Isle of Man, we could naturally, on Finance Board, where we have it provided without the necessity of value the declaratory so much, to the views the taxpayer pouring a lot of money im- of people particularly with regard to such mediately into it. I well remember in one of remarks as those made by the hon. member the best speeches which I have heard from for Rushen, Mr. Cringle, with regard to the a Chairman of a Beard in this Court, the non-ownership, to others with regard to the hon. member. Mr. MacDonald, for Peel. formation of the company. Finance Board coming forward in a very statesman-like will be looking with great caution and in manner and trying to persuade us for a roll great detail at the details which will come on/roll off scheme like the Harbour Board forward at the next time that this appears model. I think the cost was £6; million or before this hon. Court, and so, even then. something was the total — now he presented this hon. Court will have the opportunity, that case and presented it to this Court in having accepted the principle, which I am an immaculate fashion, absolutely first-class sure it is going to do today, as to whether as a statesman. We could not support it. or not the detail fits into the picture (a) of Unfortunately the reason we could not sup- what is wholly desirable to the Isle of Man, port it was that we felt that we could not (h) what the Isle of Man can actually afford, afford it. Today we have the opportunity. and (c) how long it is going to take to put We still have the control and it is not going it into effect if it is approved. This, I would to cost us all that much money. It is not imagine, is all the safeguard that anyone going to cost us all that much money. We could wish for, and I personally hope that have the choice this afternoon of taking, if we clear our decks now and vot e for this you like a qualified gamble, shall we go for resolution. it or shall we not? Are we going to get off the fence? I would suggest that everyone Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, very of us here should ignore the amendment briefly I would support what my hon. col- that has been put forward, we should grasp league on the Finance Board has said. May the opportunity today and say to the Chair- I say I come out strongly against the man of the Harbour Board, we give you our amendment. It has been said by the hon. blessing and 1 am quite certain that in the member for Council, Mr. Kerruish, that years to come when this is operational, that because of their interest in 'bus services. the Harbour Board will certainly be able to the Manx Electric Railway, the steam rail- say to other firms as well as whatever com- way, et cetera, they have not been able to pany is going to operate this, that you can tackle the job of sea transport. I wonder use these facilities because they will come if I may remind him that there was a survey to some agreement with the firm. I think drawn up by the Economist Intelligence that is something which can be ironed out Unit on sea transport, and as a result of in the future. Let us get the facility there that, as far as I can recollect and it may if it is at all possible. Today is your oppor- have been by default, the Steering Com- tunity, let us have a go. mittee declined to take sea transport under

Douglas Harbour---Roll On/Roll Off Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera--Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T141 the umbrella of nationalisation. Your Excel- hope they will and I suggested at the lency, the hon. member for Council is a beginning that I hope they will. Mr. great protagonist of private enterprise. This Speaker, I thank him also very much indeed resolution is for the furtherance of private for his great support in this motion and for enterprise and I hope therefore that he will his encouragement to the Harbour Board. withdraw his amendment. He has seen the situation with us, he has seen what happens in other ports, tiny little Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I did second ports, where these facilities are available this and I did reserve my remarks, but in and without which he realises, like I do, view of the lateness of the hour I have been unless we get the facilities we are going to persuaded that my Chairman will answer not pick up on tourists, not pick up on for me. industry, not pick up on traffic but slowly Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, if 1 but surely decline. There is one other thing can start with the last first. I would thank I would like to say, I will not bother to Mr. Kermeen and his colleague, Major answer all the others, Your Excellency, Crellin, in Council, for what I think sums because I know the Court has had enough up the views of certainly the younger of this, but one thing I would thank Mr. element of the House and certainlly the pro- Christian for telling me' today and that is gressive element, it sums it up. I think what how to get round the regulations of Tyn- I should say to members is that the Harbour wald with regard to the declaration of Board, probably with our experience behind members' interests. The thing to do is to us, realise that the thing to do is to discuss declare your interest after you have sold this with the Finance Board before we even your shares in the morning with the hope came to Tynwald for the declaratory resolu- of possibly buying them back the next day. tion, pointing out to them what we were (Interruptions.) I do not think and I have seeking and what we were hoping to do and been long enough in this Court ... get their blessing to come to a declaratory Mr. Christian: One hundred pounds. .esolution, to test the water in the harbour. which we have done, Your Excellency. I Mr. MacDonald: Whether it is £5 — the would like to thank Mr. Noel Cringle, the rule was made by the Court and I hope the member for Bushell, very much; he and Mr. rule will be adhered to and I hope this does Watterson. the member for Middle, I think not set the precedent, when we look at the both of these younger members are usually list and see who is in it and who is out of right down to earth and can usually sift it, I hope this does not set the precedent out the wheat from the chaff, see what is that in the future all you have got to do is in the public interest and they usually stick to say you have sold them in the morning to it, and I would like to thank them very and you can talk in the afternoon. I have much for their support today. Mr. Nivison forgotten it from now on. — I have served with Mr. Nivison on the Mr. Christian: Why not? What is wrong Steering Committee and on many other with that, it is perfectly legal? things, on the 'bus company, on the Trans- Mr. MacDonald: Yes, but we will have to port Committee, but one thing I am rather alter the rules if that is the legal system disturbed about is that he was suggesting because I do not think . . . today, that he would rather Government pay the lot. Now this is the very reason ... The Governor: Would you please address yourself to the Chair. Mr. Nivison: I did not say that. Mr. MacDonald: I will sit down, Your Mr. MacDonald: Well, you suggested that. Excellency. Mr. Nivison: It should be available for The Governor: Thank you very much. I all. will put the amendment first, hon. members, Mr. MacDonald: If you take an airfield, mcved by the hon. member of Council, Mr. if you are providing something special for Kerruish, that the Steering Committee of a particular firm in a hanger, you cannot Tynwald should investigate the proposal. say, oh well, you build the hanger but you Will those in favour of the amendment must let everybody use it. That is the please say aye; against, no. The noes have situation if the company has built it. We it. 1 now put the resolution as moved by

Douglas Harbour—Roll On/Roll Oft Berth—Harbour Board Plan for Approach Road, Et Cetera—Approved. T142 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 the Chairman of the Harbour Board. Will opportunity to meet the criticisms of the those in favour please say aye; against, no. hon. Chairman of the Finance Board. The The ayes have it. The resolution therefore Ecclesiastical Committee have very carefully carries. considered this and there are four reasons why they have brought this forward. Firstly, Government has a residual interest in St. ST. MARY'S CHURCH, CASTLETOWN Mary's, Castletown, under the Government — SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED Chaplaincies Act 1921, so faute de mieux TO CONSIDER FUTURE OF. we are going to be stuck with this. Secondly. there was a considerable public interest The Governor: Item number 40. The shown in Castletown, and we are here. Chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee. after all is said and done, on behalf of the Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, 1 beg to public and this Committee and the Ecclesias- move:— tical Committee has had the job statutorily That a Select Committee of Tynwald be of dealing with Church affairs and therefore appointed to consider and to report to Tyn- it is the most appropriate Committee. We wald 00 the future of St. Mary's Church. have not involved ourselves, but nevertheless Castlelown, and that the said Committee we have been at the Consistory Court to shall comprise the Ecclesiastical Committee hear what is going on and finally because, of Tynwald. as Your Excellency knows, there has been Members: Agreed, agreed. approach made to the Government for Mr. Cringle: No, Your Excellency, 1 am financial aid. New a Select Committee, if sorry and 1 appreciate it is late and I ap- you like do not have us on, but I feel that preciate very much it is late. I quite agree the Ecclesiastical Committee have a certain that maybe we should set up a Select Com- claim to be the best body to help the Court mittee, but I do not think that it would be On this matter because we will consider it right for this Court to say that it should objectively, dispassionately, we will call for be the Ecclesiastical Committee. I think we evidence, we will have, I hope, available to should set up a Committee possibly to look us specialist advice and otherwise you are at this situation but it should not be the going to find, I am afraid, that even if you Ecclesiastical Committee. I will be brief. do not like it, sonic clay there will lie at your door the ruin of St. Mary's Church, Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, 1, too. Castletown. Perhaps we do not know what like the hon. member for Rushen, rise to will happen if we do consider it. We may oppose this resolution. 1 think we want to have some positive recommendations to get it perfectly clear in our minds whether make, we do not know. At least I think we or not the Government should get involved would be avoiding our responsibilities to the in this situation. As far as I am concerned people of Castletown if we did not take I would oppose any Select Committee even upon our shoulders the job of doing some- inquiring into it. I think if we get ourselves thine for Castletown and its church. involved in this thing today it is entirely wrong. Why should we, as a Government. The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, I he involved? Is anybody able to tell us why think it is fair that as the Bishop of the we should be involved in an investigation n Diocese 1 should make some comment, to whether or not we should spend money grateful as I am to Mr. Kermeen and to the on the rejuvenation of the church in Castle- Ecclesiastical Committee. This statement of town. I strongly oppose the Government Government interest is new to me and I getting involved at all. would be very interested to follow this through. Second, I am deeply disturbed to The Governor: Perhaps the hon. mover feel that one of my parish churches should would care to say a few words? be in this state of disrepair. This, of course. Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, 1 wonder happened before I came and just as I can the remainder of the Agenda be held arrived the then incumbent, who nov, over until next month, with the possible tragically is dead, and his parochial church exception of the election of Mr. Radcliffe? council sought tenders and re-roofed the Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, 1 think it building and raised the money and very is most irregular that 1 have not had the generous support was given by the people

St. Mary's Church, Castletown—Select Committee Appointed to Consider Future Of. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 TI43

of the Isle of Man and I think something soever in this church building. In my view like £8,000 or £10,000 was spent. What they it is the sole property and responsibility of did not, unfortunately, know or were not the Church Commissioners for the Isle of prepared to discover was the very serious Man. Also the mention has been made of defect in that building. 1 myself, after the the Consistory Court and it is perfectly true first Consistory Court, and this is the way that in the Consistory Court the Vicar- the Isle of Man deals with a redundant General will have power, if he thinks fit, church, very different from England where to make an order in respect both of the there would be a Diocesan Committee, closing of the church and a temporary order namely the Pastoral Committee, to deal ha' been made already, and also for the with this and to take all the evidence, as demolition of the premises. Should such an I believe the Ecclesiastical Committee now order of that kind be made, I mean an may wish to do, it then goes to the order of demolition, then the responsibility Church Commissioners of England and they for carrying out that order would lie with ultimately make an order and that order the Church Commissioners, as owners of finally finds its way through the House of the property. The Vicar-General has no Commons and the House of Lords to the power to order the deconsecration of the Privy Council. Here it is the Consistory site, that power would only derive from an Court. There was a Petition to the Vicar- Act of Tynwald. Should Tynwald decide to General and he took the necessary steps to appoint a Select Committee that Committee, • have his first and his second hearing. At in my view, would operate in exactly the the second hearing, I am informed, there same way as a Select Committee appointed were very few people present. What I want to consider and report to Tynwald on any to say to this hon. Court is that I took the particular Island building or other Island initiative of bringing together the Chairman feature, as we had in the case of the of the Local Government Board, and I was Nunnery and other Island buildings. The grateful to him for coming, 1 invited mem- Select Committee would, in my view, be bers of the Ecclesiastical Committee and . two looking at the matter from a detached and of them. came — there was an apology from independent, quite independent point of the Chairman who was off the Island - view, not on the basis that the Government the Castletown Commissioners, the parochial had any legal interest in the building what- church council representatives. together with soever. I would, in conclusion, Your Excel- the architect, the Archdeacon, the Rural lency, mention that Consistory Court will Dean and the incumbent and all I can say be sitting again to hear this matter in to this Court was at that meeting, and those January 1978, and I feel that if the Select who were n_ resent can confirm this, it was Committee is appointed and is able to report unanimous that no money should be poured back to Tynwald say by the December into this building. I think it is right that I Tynwald, it would be very helpful for the should say this to you, without trying to views of Tynwald, if recommendations are influence you any further, but those were accepted, to go before the Consistory Court the views of people who are responsible in and I am sure this would help the Vicar- some section or another in that community. General in reaching a proper decision as to the future of this building. The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I would like just to clarify the legal position, Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I think it in view of the comments made by the hon. is very unfortunate to go into this matter member for West Douglas. I have formed now at this time of night. Without any a preliminary view on the position and that disrespect to the Bishop, I do not think he is that this church, St. Mary's Church, realises the feeling in the Anglican com- Castletown, was vested in the Church Com- munity in Castletown. Unfortunately, he missioners of the Isle of Man by the Act chose certain people to go to the meeting mentioned by Mr. Kermeen, that is the and inevitably people felt that he selected Government Chaplaincies Act 1921, but in persons who would represent his point of my view neither Tynwald nor the Govern- view. I am quite sure, Bishop, that probably ment Property Trustees, nor any Board of you did not, but naturally, in a small com- Tynwald has any legal or residual — to use munity there has been great feeling and the word of Mr. Kermeen — interest what- anything that we can do in this Court to

St. Mary's Church, Castletown—Select Committee Appointed to Consider Future Of. TI44 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 have the thing looked at in an indepen- so to do. dent way is very important. Originally, the Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, of course it local architect said that the immediate is very sad indeed to lose this church in expense would be about £20,000 and now Castletown, but certainly in view of the somebody else has come in and said that statement made by the learned Attorney- the expense will be very much more. We General, I would have thought that the hon. had hoped that an independent Committee member for West Douglas, Mr. Kermeen, would look at the church and tell us where would either withdraw this motion or that we stood. Might I point out that had the we should oppose it. 1 believe that is en- Chairman of the Local Government Board tirely a matter for the Church of England. had the list of listed buildings ready, this It is not a Government matter; it should be church would have been covered by it. I, dealt with by the Ecclesiastical Committee, personally, have been on and on at him because we have no real residual interest in that this list should be produced and every this building. 1 think it should either be time there is an excuse why it is not ready, withdrawn or we should oppose it and keep so that in a sense this Court has the thing. well out of it. If I might just read out — a gentleman called Mr. Cooper of the Royal Commission The Speaker: Your Excellency, 1 am on Historical Monuments, he wrote me a rising to support the investigation of the long letter, but if I might just read the last situation in Castletown by a Select Com- paragraph of it because I am thinking of mittee of this Court. The hon. member for it now as an historical building: "I think - Castletown is perfectly right in saying that - this is referring to the church --- "its we have an interest in this building in the importance is more than just local. Now sense that it should have been on the list of that so many historic towns in England historical buildings for preservation. That are being destroyed and their characters list is a list that was compiled and has been drastically altered, Castletown is an in- in the possession of the Local Government creasingly valuable survival. The quiet Board for some considerable time. The dignity of its buildings, their human scale, Manx Museum and National Trust ob- their use of traditional materials, the har- viously have an interest here and, as their bour, the castle, the old streets and the spokesman in this Court, I would like to promenade, all combine the formal and the see the matter investigated, apart altogether picturesque in an attractive way. People from the Church interest. I am also saying, sometimes take for granted the places they even from a Church interest point of view, know well and may not fully appreciate in a way I am your spokesman, in the House their attractions in a wider context, but I of Keys anyway on the Church Commis- can hardly think of a single town in England sioners, a body which I find in need of with so many qualities and I often tell change, I advocate that it might be elected people what a fascinating place it is and in a different way, but that is by the way, that they ought to go there. If St. Mary's would like guidance. I do suggest that you were to be demolished that would probably will lose nothing by asking a Committee to be the greatest single blow against the look at this and give us some guidance as character of the place. Please forgive my to where, what is going to be a "hot potato" writine at such length, but 1 feel particularly in the not-too-distant future, is going to strongly about the church and your town. end up. they are both unique." Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I did right The Lord Bishop: A point of information, at the outset, even before Mr. Kermeen had Your Excellency. The people I invited to his chance to have his say in moving this, represent the parochial church council were suggest that a Committee should look at it, the elected members of that council, namely but not the Ecclesiastical Committee. Could the churchwardens, the vice-chairman of the move that as an amendment, sir, that in parochial church council, the secretary and actual fact the motion will read: "That a the treasurer, and for further information Select Committee of Tynwald be appointed may I say that the Ecclesiastical Insurance to consider and to report to Tynwald on the Office no longer holds a public liability future of St. Mary's Church, Castletown,- cover on that building because it just refuses full stop.

St. Mary's Church, Castletown—Select Committee Appointed to Consider Future Of. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 19, 1977 T145

The Governor: Delete thereafter. Tynwald for the remainder of the term ending on the 27th January 1980 in the place Mr. Cringle: Delete all the words there- of Alderman T. A. Corkish, resigned. I beg after. to move that Mr. 1. J. Radcliffe be ap- The Governor: Is that seconded? pointed to fill the above vacancy. Mr. Lowey: I second it, Your Excellency. The Governor: Is that agreed? The Governor: Do you wish to reply? It was agreed. Mr. Kermeen: I would, sir. The point here is that if it is the wish of the Court to have a Committee other than the Ecclesiastical ISLE OF MAN STEAM PACKET Committee, I certainly will probably vote COMPANY — APPOINTMENT OF for it because I certainly do not want to TYNWALD DIRECTOR— attract the odium, nor do my colleagues on RESOLUTION DEFERRED. the Ecclesiastical Committee, of what has The Governor: Item number 42. been rightly described as a "hot potato", but Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, in connec- the choice before this hon. Court this tion with the resolution standing in my evening is a simple one, either we, as a name which reads as follows:— progressive and indeed very active Court, Tynwald is of the opinion that, in the take positive action or quietly abandon St. light of the Government shareholding of Mary's Church, Castletown, to its fate. 13.8 per cent. of the issued share capital of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company, The Governor: An amendment has been Limited, every effort should be made to proposed, hon. members, to the resolution procure the appointment to the Board of and I put it to the Court. Those in favour that Company of a director nominated by please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Tynwald. I will now put the resolution, as amended. I wish to defer it for one month in view Is that agreed? of the debate which has taken place this It was agreed. afternoon. The Governor: Do you want to appoint a It was agreed. Select Committee here and now? The Governor: In that case, hon. mem- It was proposed and seconded that the bers, that concludes our Agenda. The following members be appointed:— Mrs. Council will withdraw and leave Mr. Quayle, Messrs. Cringle, Kermeen, Walker Speaker to put to the Keys such matters and Mr. Speaker. as he may wish. The Governor: The Committee is so constituted, hon. members. HOUSE OF KEYS The Speaker: Hon. members of the House WAR PENSIONS COMMITTEE — of Keys, the House will stand adjourned • MR. J. J. RADCLIFFE APPOINTED. until Tuesday next at 11 a.m. in our own The Governor: Item number 41. Chamber and the duration of the sitting will Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency we be for the morning only. have to appoint one member to represent The House adjourned.

CORRIGENDUM TYNWALD COURT

Page T.13, column 2: For the name "Mr. Delaney" where it appears for the second time substitute "Mr. Ward".

• War Pensions Committee—Mr. J. J. Radcliffe Appointed. — Isle of Man Steam Packet Company—Appointment of Tynwald Director—Resolution Deferred. — House of Keys.