REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT
Douglas, Wednesday, December 10, 1975 at 10-30 a.m.
Present: The Governor (Sir John (2) purchase the Nunnery property Paul, G.C.M.G., 0.33.E., M.C.), In the from the Government Property Council: the Lord Bishop (the Bit Rev. Trustees at the price of £50,000; Vemon Nicholls, (Messrs. J. B. Bolton, or alternatively O.B.E., G. T. Crellin, E. N. Crowe, O.B.E., R. E. S. Kerruish, G. V. H. (3) take a lease of the Nunnery Kneale, J. C. Nivison, W. E. Quayle, property from the Government A. H. Simcocks, M.B.E., with Mr. P. J. Property Trustees for a term of Hulme, Clerk of the Council. In the 21 years at an annual rent of £1; Keys: The Speaker (Mr. H. C. Ker or alternatively ruish, OB.E.), Messrs. R. J. G. Ander (4) take a lease of the Nunnery son, H. D. C. MacLeod, G. M. Kermeen, property from the Government J. C. ducas, P. Radcliffe, Miss J. C. C. Thomton-Duesbery, Messrs. J. R. Creer, Property Trustees for a term of E. Ranson, P. A. Spittall, T. C. Far- 21 years at an annual rent of agher, N. Q. Cringle, E. G. Lowey, Mrs. £5,000. E. C. Quayle, Messrs. W. A. Moore, J. J. Bell, E. M. Ward, B.E.M., E. C. I.O.M. RAILWAY — OPERATION Irving, Miss K. E. Co win, Mr. G. A. Devereau, Mrs. B. Q. Hanson, Messrs. FROM BALLASALLA TO PORT ERIN SUBJECT TO CONDITIONS AND R. MacDonald, P. G. Hislop, Sir Henry CONSIDERATION OF DOUGLAS- Sugden, K.B.E., C.B., D.S.O., with Mr. PORT ERIN OPERATION — T. E. Kermeen, Clerk of Tynwald. APPROVED. The Governor; Item No. 11. I call ACQUISITION OF NUNNERY BY upon the Chairman of the Steering MANX MUSEUM — NOT PROPOSED. Committee on Transport to move the The Governor : Hon. members under resolution standing in his name. Standing Order 57 the Court is pre Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I beg cluded from taking item No. 10 which to move :— read as follows :— WHEREAS on the 10th December BE IT RESOLVED : 1974 Tynwald resolved, inter alia, that That in the opinion of this Hon. the Isle of Man Government would Court the Manx Museum and. National guarantee the Isle of Man Railway Trust should, acquire the Nunnery Man Company against an operating loss on sion House and grounds as a. Cultural the steam train servicei from Castle- and Tourist Centre for the benefit of tovm to Port Erin during the year com the Manx Nation. mencing on the 12th November 1975 providing agreement was reached bet And for this purpose they be ween the Government and the Com authorised to : pany on the amount of such guarantee (1) purchase the Nunnery property in the light of experience in operating frdm the Government Property the service during 1975. Trustees at a nominal price of £1; AND WHEREAS the Company has or alternatively made representations to the Tynwald
Acquisition of Nunnery by Manx Museum — Not Proposed. — I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. T282 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975
Steering Committee on Transport on ing. At exhibitions on the mainland the operation of such service for 1976 we have not only publicised the Rail (including the extension of the ter way but given out holiday information minus from Castletown to Ballasalla,). leaflets provided by the Tourist Board. RESOLVED :— That Tynwald ap Secondly, we provide volunteer assis tance. At 'the present (time, a group of proves of the Isle of Man Railway Com volunteers are working each weekend pany operating a steam service from on the line between Port Erin and Ballasalla to Port Erin conditional on— Colby. Finally, we have provided money (a) the service being maintained for for specific projects suggested by the six days a week (Sundays to operators. For example, one steam en Fridays inclusive) for a basic gine would not be running today if the four return• journeys a day duringi Association had not paid for the re the period mid-May to mid- pairs and transportation of essential September. components. The Association is not (b) the Isle of Man Government generally made up of a group of in guaranteeing the Company dividuals who are purely steam rail against an operating loss during way enthusiasts. There are some I the year commencing 12th grant you, but amongst (the member November 1975 up to an amount ship are a number of qualified railway qf £25,000 such amount to be men ranging from railway accountants mutually agreed between the and engineers to firemen and 'the like. Government Treasurer and the I understand that you have all received a copy of our costings report and there^ Company’s auditors. fore you realise that the Association In respect of (this I understand there has produced a well thought-out, care is a Memorial, is that to be presented fully balanced and analysed study on to the Court .before I present this railway operations. May I now turn to resolution? If that is the case I would the Memorial in which I have stated not object to it at all. I would just that we were requested on 4th Novem formally move the resolution in order ber, 1975, by Mr. Nivison, Chairman of that the; Memorialist ¡might have an the Transport Steering Committee, to opportunity to present the Memorial. prepare a costings report for the oper The Governor: The presentation of ation of the Douglas to Port Erin line the Memorial is a matter for the Court for the 1976 season. Indeed, Mr. to decide. If it is the wish of the Court Nivison is reported in the Isle of Man that the Memorialist should be heard Courier for 7th November, that he had then, assuming he is here, would some asked the Association to produce plans body second? and costings for the running of the railway from Douglas to Port Erin. Mr. Kerruish: I beg to second and After receiving such a request for a reserve my remarks, Your Excellency. costings report I called together a num Mr. A. Beard appeared for the Mem ber of railway accountants and others orialists. for help and advice and the report was put together. In my letter dated 25th Mr. Beard: May it please Your Ex November to Mr. Nivison I enclosed cellency, I am the Chairman of the the costings report and stated that we Isle of Man Steam Railway Supporters were prepared to make further reports Association. The Association (has for and give any advice required, but re the past ten years been striving to quested a meeting between the Steer wards the successful retention of the ing Committee, the Railway Company Steam Railway. We have assisted the and the Association to discuss the fut operators in three major ways. Firstly, ure of the railway. No reply or acknow by providing extensive publicity for the ledgement has been received from Mr. Railway both on this Island and on the Nivison and upon enquiry made to Mr. mainland and we have spent on aver Kermeen, Clerk to the Steering Com age over £400 each year on advertis mittee, I was informed 'that he had no
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. TVN WA T/D COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T283
knowledge of such costings report. The member wishes to do so. At this stage resolution before Your Excellency and would you like to address any ques this Court today is for the operation of tions ? the Steam Railway from Ballasalla to The Speaker: Later, with Your Ex Port Erin conditional upon inter alia a cellency’s permission. guarantee for the Railway Company against an operating loss during 1976 Mr. Nivison: I thought, Your Excel up to an amount of £25,000. As you lency, that we might dispense with the will have seen from our costings report Memorialists and allow the members of we have stated that the loss for oper Tynwald to debate it. This would be ating 16 miles of line from Douiglas to the time surely. Port Erin, under our management or The Governor : Again it is a matter control, is only £29,926. I have received for the Court to decide, but questions a letter from the Castletown Commis may well arise in the course of the de sioners giving their support and I quote bate on which members would wish to from their letter “I was instructed to ask the Memorialists certain things. write to you and state that the Castle town Commissioners consider that the Mr. Nivison: It is all right with Steam Railway must run between Dou me. Your Excellency, in the news glas and Port Erin in future and that papers it says “The Isle of Man Steam it ought to be given the necessary fin Railway Supporters Snubbed.” And it ancial support by Government. My appears that they rushed to the papers Board contend that the Steam Railway with a story. On 10th December, 1974, is a valuable tourist attraction. Al Tynwald approved the continued oper though the system runs at a loss at ation of the Steam Railway from present, 'the invisible returns from dis Castletown to Port Erin from 12th playing the Steam Railway and adver November. This was following consul tising literature and film must not be tation with the Steering Committee, a underestimated. The loss of the Steam two-year service was to be offered and Railway system must be avoided since it was subject to the first year being this would be one less item to attract successful that consideration would be visitors to the Island in preference to given for the second year. In the mean other resorts and my Board ask that time, the Isle of Man Steam Railway you exert pressure to ensure that the Supporters get up a Petition in supiport railway continues to function and that of their plea to run from Douglas to it operates between Douglas and Port Port Erin and nobody is going to con Erin.” The Association feels that the demn them for that. I am sure every Steering Committee has not been given member of this Court would love to see the opportunity of examining our cost this happen. It is the economics asso,- ings report and I therefore ask you to ciated with this that causes the diffi reject the resolution now before you in culty. On 4th November this year, order that more consideration be given which is not a long time ago, this Pet to the future of the Isle of Man Steam ition was presented to me as the Chair Railway. man of the Steering Committee. It was requested that it should be done in The Governor: Thank you, Mr. public and consequently in the presence Beard. of the Clerk of Tynwald I received the Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I ap Petition on the 4tih ¡November, 1975. preciate the remarks of the Memorial Rather than just receive the Petition, ists and I want to put the record the Clerk to Tynwald had to go to the straight. House of Keys sitting on that day, I said to the gentlemen who presented The Speaker : Your Excellency, on a the Petition “Do sit down and let us point of order, will there be any op discuss the situation.” Then I started to portunity to ask the Memorialists any discuss the situation where we had an questions at any stage? agreement with the Railway Company The Governor : Certainly if any hon. to run on this shortened line which had
T n.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Brin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. T284 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 been partly successful. I told them that of the Committee still felt that Dou the Railway Company had alleged that glas was the place where we should go 75% of the number of people who had from. However, it is economics and we •travelled from Castletown to Port Erin were told constantly that the gradient had travelled the previous year from and the track and several other fea Douglas to Port Erin. I told them that tures made it impossible to run from it was pure economics that was pre Douglas. Many of our Committee or venting the running of the whole line. rather some otE our Committee, right at During the course olf the conversation the outset when a shortened railway they said “We are of this opinion” and was mentioned, suggested that it should they produced a booklet which was sub be from Douglas to Port Soderick. This sequently presented to the members of is the way We were thinking rather than Tynwald, on the report of the 1975 going from these other places. Rather season with suggestions. They sugges than snubbed, Your Excellency, we ted that the Railway Company them noted this Petition and we took action. selves perhaps were inefficient. Perhaps We wrote to the Railway Company the Company were not running it as and I have got a copy of the minutes cheaply as they could and they said here and any memlber of Tynwald could that they were of the opinion that they see that minute, and asked them if they could do better. During the course of would state whether it was feasible, in the conversation, Your Excellency, I their view. They had told us before said to them “Well let us have your ob there were difficulties with the track, servations, your figures.” The sugges with the gradient, technically and econ tion is that they came to see me as omically to run this stretch of line and Chairman of the Committee and I said in the light of their reply would review “Please will you get us some figures be the position. The Railway Company cause we would like you to run the had also communicated with us with a railway?” This is not so. The suggestion view to asking whether we were inter was during this conversation, they sug ested in purchasing the line between gested that they could do better and Douglas and Ballasalla other than the asked me “Would you like us to pre Station of Douglas and Ballasalla. Be sent some figures?” and I said “Yes, fore we considered that we wanted to you can present the figures.” In the know is it possible? Is it practicable? meantime, we have had a most cour Is it economical? We have taken this teous and a most friendly meeting and action. In the meantime, Your Excel it was somewhat hurtful to me to find lency, resolutions to Tynwald have to afterwards that these same gentlemen be in a fortnight beifore the meeting should immediately rush to the press, takes place, so at that same meeting on during a time when I was off the Is 19th November, bearing in mind that land on Government business, with a we had had the representatives from lot of information about the fact that the Treasury down with us and we had they had been snubbed. Far from being examined the figures for this year, snubbed we were prepared to examine rather than have nothing we decided their particular suggestions. In the that we would make this recommend meantime, Your Excellency, on the 19th ation. Thus we forwarded a resolution November the Steering Committee met for Tynwald that we should run on the and I reported that this Petition had extended line to Ballasalla at a cost of been received and we have noted this £25,000 and the £25,000 can be justified and the Clerk wrote back from the Com by the figures which were presented to mittee saying to the Association that us, Your Excellency. The Company they had received it. Furthermore, at made a loss of £31,000 last year on that very meeting we wrote to the Isle that line, £31,000 and they claimed of Man Railway Company to see if it their guarantee of £20,000. The Railway was possible from a structural point of Company themselves subsidised the view and from a viability point of view fares to the extent of £11,000. In ad to run into Douglas. We have it min dition, they called upon our full uted on the 19th November that many £20,000 and they put a further £11,000
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T285 in themselves. Tihte cost of every pas ing of the Steering Committee. I senger who rode on that railway was would point out rtJiat although these £1-05. I refer only to the Government figures do present a loss of some subsidy. In addition to that they had £29,000, they take no account of who the Railway subsidy. They were sub owns the railway. They are suggesting sidised by Government for this opera that about the operational loss, but the tion. Nevertheless £1-05 by Government railway belongs to the Railway Com for every passenger because there were pany, and I feel sure that the Railway 19,000 passengers carried on 38.000 Company will not say, you can go journeys. I would like to say, Your Ex ahead, you boys, if you can run it for cellency, (that this is dealing with the £29,000; ilt is our railway, it is our question of the (Isle of Man Railway land, it is our station. In their booklet Supporters Association. I aim sorry they ■they do say — and some would not dis have come into conflict. This is not the agree with it — that the whole railway, way to obtain what they want, what should be, perhaps, taken over by the many off us would like to get. There is Government. Some would, perhaps, not no snub at all associated with this. The disagree with that. They say that. That question was that we have given it full is in addition, that is going to cost consideration, we had a programme to money. 1 am not going to hazard what work. We were condemned, incident that would cost. You must add that on ally, about the 1974 season that the to the £29,000. This is the point, Your Railway Company were not able to op Excellency. When you see the figures erate quickly enough because of in that they say that they — a lot o f work decision by Tynwald. We tried to ex has been put into that, and very good pedite it. The Tourist Board have been timetables, etc., and a loss of £29,000, after us (to see what the position is but you must add to that, because I likely to be and I said, “The Steering very much doubt if the directors of the Committee have considered it. It was Railway Company would say, well, if on a two-year resolution; the result of this can happen, go ahead boys, you the second year will be based on con can take our materials, our railway, sideration of how successful or other and you can run it; they are not likely wise we have been on the first year.” I to do that. I do say that whilst this is understand that the second year is very interesting, you have got to add likely to be very much more success another figure on in addition to that, ful than, the first year. We have had and the Railway Company do say that observations from the Company that as far as their insurers are concerned, they had difficulty in this first year and as far as the inspectors of railways are they only really got into top gear in the concerned, they would have heavy de middle of the summer. They do sug mands on that part of the line between gest that it will be very much better in Douglas and Ballasalla which would be the season to come. Although some of extremely costly. This is what the Rail us do claim it is necessary to start from way Company say. From a safety Douglas, they do not claim that it is angle they would require to spend a ntecessary to start off from a town and lot of money on that line, and this is sthey quote examples in North Wales one of the reasons why they have not and similar places. Many of us have embarked upon that part of the line. I said “ Oh no, we really think iit should do say, what we have arrived at and start from Douglas.” We have said this what we are presenting to you, is not and have said “Please, can you do it?” the end of the road, it is the next sea At the lasit meeting, we .said “We must son, 1976 season — even if we reject have this down, we must have their this resolution today, iif we reject this reply to this in black and white so that it will not be thought that it was just resolution, we may have .no railway at our imagination.” I want to say, Your all next year, nothing at all. There is Excellency, that as far as the Associa not the alternative that you either have tion is concerned the fullest considera the Isle of Man Railway Supporters’ tion will be given there at the meet Association scheme, or you have the
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. T286 TYNWALD COURT; DECEMBER 10, 1975
scheme that is presented by the Steer ation, all together round the table with ing Committee, there is not that alter a view to seeing if anything can be done native, there is not that alternative. in this direction. When it comes down How can the Steam Railway Suppor in the end, the great enemy of this is ters’ Association run the railway? The the economics concerned. The desir Railway Company want to have noth ability —• everyone in this Court thinks ing to d0‘ with them. It is a private it highly desirable to have trains run company. We are not talking about ning out of Douglas, say, right to Port property that belongs to us, we are Erin. Everyone would support that. talking about a private company that Everybody would support that. It is an is running this, and they can say, we economic situation. I can assure you we are not going to run iit at all. Then iit will have a round the table discussion, would be beholding for either the Gov but in the meantime I ibeseech you to ernment to purchase it from them, to pass this resolution in order that we purchase it, and bearing in mind the might have a railway for next Summer. high cost of rails and scrap metal, and Mr. MacDonald : Your Excellency, I so forth, this is quite a problem. I do rise to second the resolution. say that in the interests of all con cerned, the railway supporters, and in The Governor: It has been seconded the interests of all concerned il would already. beseech the Court to support the resol Mr. MacDonald: Oh has it. Well, ution. You may And yourselves in a Your Excellency, I would like to say position if you reject this resolution, if that the thing Tynwald has got to face you reject this resolution, that you up to today is the fact that we do not would not have any railway running at own this railway. I know Mr. Speaker, all. I am sure you do not want that. who has suddenly become a great con servationist, will probably say, well, we Mr. Bell: There is no maybe albout it. should have it. Let him then move the resolution today that we nationalise the Mr. Nivison: I do not think there is Railway Company at share value; let any m'aybe, I think it is true that him move that if he is so keen on it. there would be no railway. I do1 say That is the only legal way this Court to the Memorialists, I do say, do not will have any power at all over that think we have snubbed you. You must railway, over that railway, it is the agree that I was not in any way — only way to do it, there is no other way. when I met you before I said we Once you start on that track we must would give fullest consideration. We remember that there are other things received the figures after the res in the Isle of Man which I believe olution had been presented to Tyn should be nationalised, but I ami quite wald, and only within this last — certain very few in this Court would it is not months and months ago, only support me in nationalising, I am quite within this last week or so. I can certain they would not. They talk with assure the Court that we will give one tongue in here and with another consideration to those figures, but we tongue in another place. There is no must pass this resolution today, other douibt at all that the original resolu wise we will have no railway for next tion, the original Commission’s Report, Summer. I hope the Court will accept which came before this Court did give what I say. There are many figures the Court the option of running what that I, too, could present, but I am sure Should have ibeen the easiest, cheapest the Court would not wish to be troubled run line, and this was the line to Peel. with these various figures. I do beseech This was the recommendation of the the 'Court to pass the resolution with original Commission’s Report, and it the full assurance that we will consider was rejected by Tynwald. Tynwald these other figures, we will do as the rejected that because of alternative supporters have said, endeavour to get pressure. Sb we have now ended up a meeting with the Railway Company with the Company running a portion and the representatives of this Associ of what is a very difficult section to
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T287 run. Certainly the Douglas to Balla station; that we all know. To sell it salla section is difficult and costly to there is going to be released *a lot of run. I think, as my Chairman has said, money that is tied up in a big asset. that we are faced today ¡with one ques I am wondering if there is not a lot tion, do we agree to give the Company of the obstacles which have been put the money to continue next year, as in the way because of that ? I am Tynwald decided last year that they wondering is there not a possibility of should have ' a two-year try at this, to starting out at the Highway Board give them another year, with the sup depot and having something there port of Tynwald, a subsidy from Tyn whereby they could turn and start from wald, fo operate for this second year ? there ? That is the big disadvantage. If we say no to this, you can rest Mr. Maconald : They do not go that assured nothing will run next year be way, you are on the wrong line. cause we all know how this company operates. We know only too well how Mr. Anderson: Well, somewhere out they operate. This is the problem faced side of Douglas. by Tynwald. As I say, there are the A Member: You could have the two alternatives. If you vote the money Nunnery! (Laughter). it runs next year, it gives us more time, Mr. Anderson : No, this is an entirely probably, to negotiate with all the different thing from the Nunnery. people who would like to run it, at People mentioned the Nunnery, it is an somebody’s else’s cost. It is a fine toy but entirely different situation altogether, it has to he paid for. We would again, as because people have said that people my Chairman has said, negotiate with are wanting something done for nothing. anybody. You have the two alterna This is a voluntary body who not only tives before you, let no talk or waffle work — many young people have kid you that there is any other altern worked the whole Summer for next tp ative, there (is not — all-out nationalis nothing in order to keep this going. ation of the Railway Company with all They have raised funds in order to keep its possessions because remember it it going, and unlike the other situatioh possesses other things, not just this bit that was before u s yesterday, there of railway track and rolling stock, have been a lot of people in my area nationalise the lot at share value or who are very interested in keeping it vote the money today to keep this going and ma-de that very clear. It is little piece of the railway running. If an entirely different situation. Whereas they can extend it to Ballasalla for this yesterday I heard not a whimper of amount of money, let -us have that. support to acquire the Nunnery, here This is the real problem before us. is an asset which is, without a shadow Mr. Anderson : Your Excellency, I of a doubt a great attraction, a steam think hon. members will find them railway, through the whole of the world. selves in a cleft stick this morning There is a great following. There are because they have Ibeen certain that people who come to the Island because we will have no railway at all unless there is a steam railway who would we support it. I do not think there is not come otherwise, and this is some anybody who is not wanting to1 support thing we must not overlook. The thing the vote this morning. They are really I am concerned about and1 what I wondering if there is a reasonable want to know this morning is, if we alternative of looking at the extension decide to go on with this and we do to Douglas, because the Chairman and not go fully into the possibility of everybody agrees that this is, really, starting from Douglas, by next year the answer to making the thing work the station at Douglas and Ballasalla, or not work. As í see it, there can be or possibly some of the line, could be all sorts of reasons put forward for disposed of as are the other parts of not using the Douglas to Ballasalla line the line. because there is a lot of money tied Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I am up in the value of the Douglas railway not wanting to interfere, but if it will
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Fort Erin Operation — Approved. T288 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975
help, the Railway Company have writ I want to say is this. We have been ten to the Steering Committee t'o ask looking at this railway for years, we them if the Isle of Man Government have had reports galore, we have hadl were interested in purchasing the line consideration given to it by one Com between D'ouglas and Ballasalla, exclud mittee and another, we have got a ing the stations. There is an option at Steering Committee; the only reason the moment, so have no fears in that why the railway was being run last direction. year from Castletown to Port Erin was Mr. Anderson : Your Excellency, here 'because somebody wanted to- save a we are being offered the pawns. I sup vestige of the railway when we knew ported the other being taken over (be that the rest was quite uneconomical, cause we needed to put the electricity and we had decided here that we were through the thing. I have been against not going to continue to run the rail it because I know there is a terriffic way from Douglas. We know what the pressure already on me by a constitu conditions are. We now get the sug ent in my area because of the fencing gestion being made, well, if we take in that area. What are we being asked over the line, we are taking the liabil to do ? To take over the liability, the ities. Do you think that the Railway entire liability which is a colossal Company are such fools as to sell us liability of fencing that area in per the station without us paying for it? petuity, and the assets being sold) off. If we pay for it, what is going to be It is a ridiculous situation for us to the cost of operating this line? This think of doing that. !We have taken playing about with matters of this kind over the other and I supported it on year after year, month after month; one specific issue, that we were going somebody says, could we not do this, to be able to, instead of taking all the could we no do that, and we know rails up we were going to put a cable that we have decided long ago tJhat we through for electric and other services, cannot do it. What I plead1 tor is that instead of digging up the roads all the we should at least make decisions in time. Even that is a questionable pro full light of knowledge and stick to position. Looking in perpetuity at the them. We 'have made the decision long terrific responsibility, and somebody ago that we were not going to run the suggested that we could pass a Bill to line from Douglas to Port Erin. We opt out of this responsibility, it would decided that, in order to have some be completely immoral so to do. I think part of it, it should run from Castle if Tynwald were to take that action town. We have now got the .situation the public in this ¡Island would be where the Railway Company is pre very justified to have no place what pared, partly at their own cost, to ever in our standards and our moral extend it even as far as Ballasalla. responsibility. What I want to know I think it is high time that we got down this morning, and I want to be con to saying, let us accept it and get on structive, I want to be helpful, I want with it, instead of .sitting here day to see this railway running, if not from after day after day discussing matters Douglas, at least from Ballasalla, is that have been settled long, long ago. that the assets will not be disposed of I do hope that we shall get on with and the opportunity taken to dispose of the business, pass the resolution, and; these before Tynwald has a chance of have the railway running from Balla looking at the possibility of running it salla to Port Erin, which is all that from Douglas, which really is the place can happen. from which the people come. Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, like Mr. Bolton : Your Excellency, really, the member Mr. Anderson for Glenfaba, I never cease to be amazed at the activ I believe that the Isle of Man Steam ities of this Court. We have now the Railway should run from Douglas to 'hon. member for 'Glenfaba telling us Port Erin. I was not a member of Tyn this morning that he is in a cleft stick, wald when Tynwald decided that it he does not know what to do. W'hat should not run from Douglas, so il did
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideis:tion of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T289
not have the opportunity at that time train did not win enough because I am of saying or passing any opinion what still here. (Laughter). That particular soever. At the present time I have section of track was ruined and utterly that opportunity. I am somewhat con ruined, completely ruined with the lay cerned, I am concerned that this has ing of a gas main from Castletown been this morning put to us again on through to Port St. Mary. We watched purely economic grounds. To my mind, this; it went through my own property, and I may be wrong, tout to my mind, I was on it continually to pay attention economics, and it was put to us that to field drains and ditches where .they it is not going to be economical to run were cutting through. It was essential from Douglas to Ballasalla; from Balla for us to keep an eye on what was hap salla ^o Port Erin will be all right, pening. The track was utterly and com but 'that is the part of the line which pletely ruinedl I would say now that is going to cause problems over the the state of that part of the track is running of it. To my mind, economics one hundred per cent better than it and management must to some extent was before the gas main went through. Ibe tied together. I was very interested You can stand and watch the train on receiving this Costing Report and if and it now runs very smoothly. I very you notice that originally the last time much doubt if the condition oi the that the steam trains ran from Douglas track ¡between Ballasalla and Douglas to Port Erin they had a service of four is in that much worse state. The in-fill trains up and four trains down. That of ballast, which was on the South required with the management at that side, is so much now toecause they lifted time, three engines in steam. If you put it out of the ditch sidle and filled the an engine in steam it is in steam all track over completely, the kHfill of day; they required three engines in ballast is levelling that track right out. steam. The interesting thing, or one of I am told toy steam people that track the interesting points out of the Report should actually sit on the ballast, not which has been presented to us, is that be buried in ballast. We can .take it this group, by management, toy man that the track between Ballasalla and agement propose, or say it is possible Douglas, in my opinion, is not in such to run twelve trains, twelve trains, not poor shape. (Interruption). I am pass eight trains, and still only require three ing my opinion — it is not in such poor engines in steam. That is purely a man shape as was the track. agement matter, purely a management Mr. MacDonald : He is speculating. matter. That alone in costing — you are getting extra trains, and very little, Mr. Cringle: I am not speculating. I .would suggest, any extra expense. I am saying that in my opinion the There is a management matter immedi track between Ballasalla and Douglas ately. This is somewhat tied' to the is in better shape than was the track economics of this whole exercise, I between Castletown and Port Erin at would! suggest. It has .also been put to the time they put the gas main through. us that the track condition between That is what I am saying. Douglas and Ballasalla is considerably Mr. Crellin: Why ? worse than what it is further South.. Mr. Cringle : That track has not been Mr. Bell: There is the gradient. altered, because it ds still sitting where Mr. Cringle : And the track, and the it was originally, nicely on top of the track, we were told this morning. I ballast and has not been ruinedl by the know particularly well the section of machinery going over and the in-fill line between Castletown and P°rt Erin. being completely levelled off. That is It splits my own property completely just my opinion. If you look at the into two halves. In fact I have had a track you would say that it is sitting little argument with the train. dry and above the ballast. The other point which I want to make this morn Members : Who won ? (Laughter). ing is the very point which the Railway Mr. Cringle: You may say that the Company itself is making in so far
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port ErCn Gperat'on — Approved. T290 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975
as it says that from the middle of last steam rail system will continue for the Summer onwards they started to make coming season from Ballasalla to Port a success of this jolb. They admit, freely Erin. What do the Memorialists say? admit that 'at the start of the season With the greatest respect to them — they were not making a success at all. I accept that they are endeavouring to Although they had advertised cafes and achieve a desirable end. I would say museums, etc., at the ¡Port Erin end, from the principles that thtey have they were not open until part way based their scheme on — and I am through the season, and they appreci quoting from their Memorial — the ate that they (began to make a success scheme is based upon the following of it towards the hack end of our holi principles, that the line will operate day season. With that in mind they between Douglas and Port Erin; that now say that they can envisage having Tynwald will appreciate the impossibil a better season next time, that they ity of running any railway from a year are going to be even better, and they to year basis; that the Government are prepared to go from Ballasalla. would reach some agreement with the With this in view and the fact that they present proprietors regarding ¡owner have the cafe and the museum and all ship, leasehold, purchase, etc., and' the other parts now working at Port many other principles which they have Erin, it is feasible may.be that this laid down as requisite for them to next year they will be even better off, operate ¡any kind of a system. I will and they themselves may want to go say quite openly and plainly, from the from Douglas. 1 in ¡no way want this very protracted negotiations that we resolution to fail this morning com ■have had in the past — and they were pletely so that we do not have a train. referred to by the hon. member of I want the steam, train to run. I do not Council, Mr. Btilton — I would say want the steam train as a museum there is no remote hope of a Commit piece sitting inside. I want to see that tee reaching agreement on those parti train actually moving. With this in cular headings in time f
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Bort Erin Operation — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T291
particular short fall, I think we have nothing. We should1 be alble to get it to appreciate that the Company have for a few coppers, it is in such a deplor shown willing] in one or two other able state, and various other things respects. I think the original suggestion like that. I am sure and certain that about a museum, a steam railwlay as long as the Railway Company is museum at Port Erin, did emanate from running it, it will never toe vialble, never the Steering (Committee. Let us be at any time. They could not make a qulite open and plain aibout it, the go of it themselves when they had it, Company have been genuine in that and now they say that no other body particular respect in so far that they will toe able to do it. That is a ridicu have spent a not inconsiderable sum of lous situation to put people in. I have money in forming that museum. I think no doulbt whatsoever that this railway in time, with1 the extended line running running from Douglas to (Ballasalla from Ballasalla to Port Erin and it is might be a difficult thing to dto' owing hoped here to be alble to link up with to the gradient of the railway and the ■tours that would connect with Rushen state of track at the present time, but Abbey, with the museum getting into I would think that running it from ■full flow next season, and) with the Ballasalla to Port Erin, where it is various refreshments facilities that are mostly a level track, would be a more being provided, that there are pros viable operation than running it from pects that the sum we are putting for Port Erin to Port St. Mary or Castle ward on this occasion may, despite town. Everybody gets up and talks inflation, perhaps toe put as a ceiling as about this railway; II do not know to where Government would commit whether anybody really knows very itself. As far as .I can see, the main much aibout the railway or the running issue to Ibe decided Iby this Court this of the railway Or not. The point in fact morning is, do you want a steam rail is that this railway, as long as we try way system1 operating next season or to run it with the Isle of Man Railway not ? 1 have no doulbt that the Court Company we will never make it viable. ■will, in the last resort, support the The thing to do is to try either to buy resolution. I think they are all the portion of the railway we want anxious that we should see the steam to buy and get rid of the Isle of Man railway system operating in the Island1. Railway, and run it ourselves, or get The sure way in which that can be someone else to run it for us. As long assured for the coming season, and iwe as it is in competition with th$ 'buses trust for the future, is to reject the you will never get this thing to take. Petition of the Memorialists and to sup There is no question about that. port the resolution as it appears on the Agenda. Mr. MacDonald: You might have them shortly, too. Mr. MacLeod : Your Excellency, we are talking about this railway and what Mr. MacLeod: Yes, we might have will happen if we do not adhere to them as well, running them from Peel ■the resolution on the Agenda today. If to Douglas. In this very first instance ■we get rid of the railway like we have when we bought this railway we should got rid' of many other things, the rail have taken up the whole of the thing way between Laxey and Ramsey, there instead of taking it piecemeal like this. will be nothing left for the tourists to We took the other part and we allowed ■come and see at all. If we want a tour them to sell all the valuable pieces of ist island we must have some facilities it and leave us with the rubbish. Every for the tourists to come and see, and thing that they have left us with we to have some railways different from, have got to maintain, fences, bridges, those they see in Great Britain. With all the way from Douglas to Peel, and regard to this railway, it is suich a from St. John’s to Ramsey, bridges and valuable railway and all the rest of it, everything else we have got to main but according to what the Chairman tain and keep up, it will cost thousands and Committee have said, it is worth and thousands of pounds. They even
I.O.M. Railway— Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Condutions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. T292 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975
sold the rails off and. we bad to buy port the resolution because I think we them back ¡from a scrap merchant. should retain the steam railway, we 'What a ridiculous thing, I ,h'ave never are now being asked to put in £25,000, seen anything like it in my life. I think and on my calculations, even on last the best thing we can do today is to year’s costings, that means that the reject this resolution and see if we Railway Company is 'going to find at cannot get something better in the least another £6,000 themselves. On future. (¡Laughter). We may end up the other hand, we give the Railway with nothing. We might as well land up Company money to buy ‘buses. The with nothing in the end as something only reason, logically, I can see why that is going to foe .a liability for ever the Railway Company want to put any and ever more. 'I can assure you, even money at all into this, as directors of those people who said that the Tourist a Company looking after the share- Board, the last Tourist Board) was such holdters’ interests, is the fact that pos a deplorable thing. sibly they can see the future of running Members: Who said that ? their coaches from Douglas to Port Mr. MacLeod: You did, and you did, Erin, carrying the passengers there and and you could run it far better than then they would travel by steam rail any other body. (Interruptions). If you way. We are already giving them half the cost of buying their ’buses in the do away with the railway, as you are trying to do now, and that is exactly first place to get the people transported to Port Erin, who travel on the Rail what the Steering Committee is trying to do — if they have not got money to way Company, so where is this extra run the thing they have always got £11,000 that they put into it last year, ways and means of getting more money, and the £6,000 as the minimum that they are going to put into it this coming they can always put the income tax up. That is one thing we can do. (¡Laughter) year, coming from ? Is that all coming Nevertheless, think of what you are out of the Government finance ? This doing with regard to this railway be is a complete mystery to me, this public cause the time will come when you transport on the Isle of Man. I think will have nothing at all to attract the it is time somebody gave us a clear- visitors to this Island. We rely for cut answer to the question. about 50% of our income from the Mr. Bell: I would like to rise to visiting population, and then on 50% support the spirit of the ¡Memorialists. from agriculture. (Laughter). You All of us on the Steering Committee should have a care with what you are were aware of their existence before doing with regard to this because as we received their correspondence which I have said before if you1 get rid of all was very interesting, because the direc the things which are the attractions to tors of the Isle of Man Railway Com the Isle of Man then you will see where pany have always spoken very, very you are. highly of them indeed, and had it not Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I been for their active interest — we think this hon. Court has decided on always say on the Steering Committee previous occasions the policy of retain to these people who want to- keep the ing the steam railway in the Isle of M.E.R. or keep the railway, you know, Man. What I would like briefly to ask put your money where your mouth is, this morning from the Chairman if he travel on or do something practical and will explain to us is, what finances are we can keep something. The Memorial we actually being asked to put into ists themselves, as an Association, are this project ? As I understand it, last a very good example t0 all these other year we guaranteed a deficiency of people who want to conserve some £20,000, and the 'Chairman told1 us that thing, tout do absolutely nothing about the Isle of Man Railway Company them it. These people are really parti selves put into it, ¡besides that £20,000, cipating. So it is unfortunate that it a further £11,000. We are now being is not the opportune time for their asked this year and I am going to sup study, their economic study to be offered
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Ptort Erin Operation — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T293
as an alternative to the Tynwald Court. an in-depth study of co-operation on This is unfortunate. I am not .talking' some of their proposals. It is unfor about the accuracy of their .project tunate that the timing for an accept within their calculations. That is al ance of the Memorialists’ observations ways subject to corrections. It is unfor is inopportune, and that is very -unfor tunate that it is just inopportune. We tunate. have to get this resolution through today because of our bargain that we Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I, too, made with tihe Railway Company last would like to say something on this. year when they wanted a three-year One of the things I find is most encour contract or three-year promise to run, aging is the fact that iin this resolu and we said, or Tynwald said, you will tion is embodied the position of an get a promise of two years provided increased track being used this year, only that your first year’s efforts are or rather next year as opposed to this satisfactory. We have had the first year. Few people, I think, suspected year with a £20,000 guarantee being that this would happen a year ago, taken up fully, although the operating but 'here it is and I am sure that it loss was £3.1,000. They are asking- for will command overwhelming support. a 2-0% increase on our -guarantee of One has got in Ballasalla the Gilbey last year. Tihat is the figure to keep in Horses, Silverdale was mentioned, and mind, they are asking for a 20% uplift Rushen Abbey, and it is an- ideal centre. on our guarantee ito operate similar Thefe is no doubt about it, of course, services next year. That uplift of -another subsidiary of the Railway Com 'guarantee represents the stated- figure pany, the coach division, would no- in the resolution of £25,-000. doubt assist in ferrying people to these various attractions. ¡Why not? ¡We Mr. Devereau : This is going to Balla should not carp and quibble about the salla. person who- is doing it; what we should Mr. Bell: This to operate from Balla have is competition amongst operators salla. We think, in our own calculations, to do it, to ensure that there is tussle that the operating deficit for the end between the competitors -and make sure of the year may be something similar that the publicity which emanates from to last year’s. However, the Railway this competition means that there are Company must have at the back of no tourists on this Island unaware of their ¡mind that with moving their loca these facilities. I am going to also, in tion to Ballasalla and with the near addition to supporting this resolution, location of, shall we say, a mini Dou I ami going to second the much critic glas populace where you have got ised amendment of the hon. member Rushen Abbey and Silverdale and a lot for (Rushen, Mr. Cringle. He may well of holiday spirit occurring there, that ibe quite out of order on technical this would 'be a better venue for a grounds, but our job here is to- try and take-off and return. That is all this is sound put public opinion, gliive our ■about today. We are only -asking you, opinion, and I think the main message really, today to agree t0 increase the I would like to give to the Steering guarantee of last year from' £2-0,000 Committee who are doing an awful to £25,000, and that-is all the resolu lot of work on this, is to encourage tion is about. It is not in any shape them. This is it, to encourage them to or form' saying to the Memorialists look again at this question of Douglas. that we are not interested in your great Mr. Cringle is, in effect, echoing, miuch interest in railways. We express of what I said a year or so ago, before that We -are very, very conscious indeed we had the experience of this last sum that it is a real and) welcome interest, mer’s steam railway operations. I think and we hope that as we progress with we -have got to solve this, and above making this line from Ballasalla to all we have got to give the message, Port Erin more successful, that we will legally or illegally, to the steam railway come closer with the (Memorialists, in directors, do not tamper with the track some way, possibly, of getting down to between Douglas and Ballasalla; leave
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Ptort Erin Operation — Approved. T294 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975
it and see if we can, in some way, their cinders as they passed Port Sod- renew that lifeline, as I see it, from erick. I say this in the light of reported the centre where the tourists are to information. I have never seen cinders the present nearest terminus, namely, being dumped out, but I have seen evi next summer, Ballasalla. There is one dence of cinders having been dumped slight worry 1 have on the costing of out on the banks of the ravine which the Supporters’ Association, I would goes through Port Soderick. In relation say here that I respect very much and to the continuance of the line between applaud their initiative, it is most re Douglas and Castletown I would re freshing to have this kind of initiative spectfully support the idea oif maintain in this particular sphere, tout amongst ing contact with this line but incident the costings is a small point. One note ally there is not the remotest chance of says that “firemen may foe eliminated getting our hands on Douglas Station entirely foy conversion of locomotives because of economic pressures. The to oil burning as is satisfactorily carried gradients between Douglas and just be out foy British steam lines.” I would yond Port Soderick are extremely try like just to ask the Petitioner a ques ing for the engines and would be very tion on this at the appropriate time consuming of power and therefore ex fout I am slightly apprehensive of it. pensive. I applaud the placing of the The whole attraction to me is steam new terminus at Ballasalla, because it railways. I hope I am wrong in my is obvious, as the member for South interpretation because otherwise we Douglas has said, that in Ballasalla have a sort of mobile oil refinery. now we have a spreading nucleus of The Governor : Do you wish to raise dated Victoriana type of entertainment this on a point otfl order, Mr. Chairman which has nostalgic value and which is of Finance Board, on ithe question of very very much sought after at this proposed amendment? •time. The steam engines, Victorian, will go very nicely with the Gilbey horses Mr. Bolton : I think I must suggest and traps; the old tea gardens, alas no to you, Your Excellency, that the longer tea gardens, buit beer gardens amendment must foe out of order and as I understand, I may be wrong, all tie contrary to Standing Orders by reason up most successfully into a nucleus; of the fact it is a financial resolution. also the station ait Ballasalla is on the If it is not a financial resolution, main road and is difficult to pass with then it is completely void because we out being seen so long as some intima cannot control the activities of the Isle tion of its presence there is made of Man Railway Company, either we known. Especially at this time when pay for it, or it is not to be done. If advertisement is considered I ask the we pay for it then it becomes a finan Steering Committee to consider that cial resolution. I think it is quite out information is given that advertise of order to add the suggested words to ments should be for information and the resolution. not for advertising purposes which can The Governor : I accept that and rule be very well dealt with by the proper that it is out oif order in accordance advertising concerns, the newspapers with Standing Order 27 (4). and Manx Radio. I feel that advertise ments should be one metre by half a Miss Cowin : Your Excellency, I metre in depth. would like to confirm what has already been said about respect for the people Mr. Moore: I heartily endorse the who feel deeply enough to come here sentiments expressed by my colleague and appear before us which cannot member for South Douglas, Mr. Bell, possibly be a very pleasing experience. in th a t...... The matter of the reference to oil Mr. Bell: We are not substantiating burning, I think I can elucidate in any newspaper reports are we? some way, because as I understand it a great deal of ithe fire hazard was Mr. Moore : No. Now and again we occasioned by the firemen dumping out do agree, I merely want ,to say that I
I.O.M. Railway— Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation —• Approved. TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T295 endorse the remarks he made with re the whole railway next year. I hope this gard to the Supporters Association and is not so. The hon. member says buy the valuable work -they 'have done but the lot, nationalise, why on earth should there is no 'hesitation this 'morning as we nationalise the railway? Why do we far as I am concerned that we have not say to the Steam Packet Company got to support this particular resolu we will pay you to let us operate this tion, there is no alternative. The alter section of the line native was .touched on very briefly by Mr. Bell : The Railway Company or the hon. member for Peel dn that the the Steam Packet Company? question, of nationalisation has to come in df we have got to do anything at all, Mr. Irving : Did I say the Steam but it is the nationalisation of all Packet? (Laughter). !l can even read transport undertakings in the Island. If his mind, sir, when he talks about we get down to the situation where we other organisations being nationalised. are going to be responsible for certain I believe, sir, that the railway will al bits and pieces, we have got to be re ways be in jeopardy unless it begins sponsible for the lot There is no mis from Douglas. I do not say that because take in my mind there are no two ways of my own political interest in Douglas, about it, we have either got to have all it is because the potential customers are or nothing. In the situation that we are in Douglas and they are not going to in at present the bits and pieces that pay to go all the way to Castletown or we are dealing with at least keep the Ballasalla to have a ride on the rail wheels turning and this extension to way. I do not mind sir if the railway iBallasalla is a very necessary one and continues from Douglas to Ballasalla I feel that it is money well spent as far and if I am pushed I would even settle as Government is concerned and as far for Port Soderick, rather than operate as the tourist industry is concerned as in the South of the Island. I am sure long as we can keep the wheels turn these members of the Railway Society, ing and do something to keep the Isle as other members have said, are to of Man Steam Railway going this is the be congratulated on their interest and main thing. At the same time II agree their activity. I would certainly like to with the sentiments expressed again compliment the Memorialist for the way that we must keep our options open he has put over his case this morning. and we must by negotiation, agree with (Hear, hear). IT am sure these people the Railway Company to leave the line realise that nothing can be done now, down to Douglas at present, leave it it is much too late to consider any there and let us have a look at the change for next year. I think they situation over the next year or two and would be satisfied if hon. members see what is going to happen. By all could agree to work towards operating means the only alternative that we the railway from Douglas to Ballasalla have got this morning is to keep the and as I say, if necessary, from Douglas wheels turning and support the resolu to Port Soderick. I am sure that unless tion as it has been placed in front of we have a much better year on the rail us. way this year there will be a big move next year to close the railway down Mr. Irving: I do not think, sir, that completely. Therefore I would say to this motion before us could possibly be the Chairman of the Steering Commit defeated. iMy message to the Steering tee even though the Railway Company Committee would be this, .that though I have said up to now that it is not pos am entirely in support oif them this sible to operate from Douglas to Balla morning and though I am sure that cer salla, I hope he will now go to them tainly the Tourist Board as a Whole is and say that it is the view of hon. most anxious to see the Steam Railway members of Tynwald that every pos preserved, I think I certainly have a sibility should be explored of operat fear that unless receipts improve be ing the railway between Douglas and tween Ballasalla and Port Erin this Ballasalla. year we might well be faced with losing Mr. Crellin : Your Excellency, I would
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. T296 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 like to be very brief on this. I reinforce working a long way ahead of what we what has been said by the hon. gentle are thinking dn this Court this morn man on this particular Committee. It ing, and have been all along. Make no is a fact that this morning we are only mistake about that and every one up thinking about next year, I would ask to now has come up trumps for them. hon. members, sir,, to foe aware that They have helped us in many forms I within a year we, at least I hope it will will admit and been gentlemen in their foe we, we shall be coming back to this business. Nevertheless the men that hon. Court to ask for approval to the you are opposing and make no mistake plan for the future. The future has got about it, are looking after their share to be considered and this is why, as holders and they are making a very my hon. Chairman- said in 'his opening very good job of it. What I am trying remarks and I gathered from some of to say and why I make that point, I the remarks that have been made that would suggest that the Steering Com people did not hear them, or did not mittee now or whatever Committee is take them in, that we have asked the going to be in charge of it, should take Railway Company again this year, as jolly good care that in the future years, we asked the Railway Company last within the next three or four years, year, what are the prospects with re that nothing whatever happens to the gard to the retention oif the southern line from Douglas south until such line complete? Last year the answer time as Government has sorted out in was simply four words “Out of the their own minds what they are going question.” In the light of the year’s ex to do. I will tell you what has hap perience in the running of this particu pened. lit is no use you shaking your lar parti ci£ the line they may have head I know a little bit more about changed their minds. They are aware this than you do. that what they told us last year was Mr. MacDonald : I hope you are pre and which Transmark told us also, that pared to say so. the amount of capital works to be done on the line in between Ballasalla and Mr. Faragher : In the last two years Douglas was prohibitive. In any case when the sleepers and lines were re we shall be coming back in less than a moved from the Douglas/Peel/Ramsey year to ask this Court for its approval lines, the real fodder to make the south to the future of the Railway. There line in a perfect condition was taken fore the Memorialists have come for right from these enthusiasts, taken ward at an opportune time. Their pro right away from them. They had posals will be considered, I regret not sleepers of very good condition which having seen them at the same time, could have been transferred to the but it is perfectly understandable with southern line, they had the track itself the pre-occupations that all of us have which could have been laid on them, and we shall be looking at those, we but oh no, our Committee were too shall be discussing them with the Rail tired and I am using that word and I way Company and we shall be coming mean it, too tired back to Tynwald to report at a later Mr. MacDonald: The Steering Com date. mittee had nothing to do with it. Mr. Faragher : I am in support of the Mr. Faragher : Too tired to look after resolution naturally today. I have al it themselves and attend to — ways supported the railway, but I Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, on would like to point out to the Steering a point of correction here. The Steering Committee and the Chairman of the Committee had nothing to do with this Steering Committee in particular that at all. I have watched this Railway/Govern Mr. Faragher: I said the Steering ment play for a long time now and it Committee or the Committee. reminds me of a game of ohess. You four or five gentlemen are opposing Mr. MacDonald: You said “the Com four or five very good men, they are mittee”. You Should make certain
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-P&rt Erin Operation — Approved. TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T297
which Committee you are talking plaud their enthusiasm, because when about. I was away in Wales on holiday this Mr. Faragher: The Committee who year, there were three things that I handled it. You know who the Commit noticed about the railways and natur tee was and so do I. Anyway that has ally I took a special interest in them got nothing to do with what I am talk because of our situation down south. ing about. The first thing I noticed was the en thusiasm of the supporters on these Mr. MacDonald: A lot to do with it. little North Wales railways. They were Mr. Faragher; They got rid of this everywhere working on the line, show because we had not time to handle it. ing people around, taking photographs I think, Your Excellency, that we and, of course, riding on the train. In should treat this very seriously. To do fact if we had not had our seats spec away with the railway and forget, it is ially reserved we would not 'have got on just plain stupidity to my way of the one that my husband and il went thinking. After all ds said and done, on. I also noticed that the railways in what is the good of having the money Wales were far more extensively ad that we are going to save on running vertised. You were able to see not only the railway piled up when we have got when you got to the railway but all nothing else? What good ds the money? round the various towns and villages It drops in value overnight. exactly what time these trains ran and how you could get there. The other Mr. MacDonald: You voted to get thing was that there were special prices rid of the Peel section. You were the for persons on coach tours whose tours one who recommended it. included a ride on the train. Your Ex Mr. Faragher: We had to support cellency I was tom in half yesterday over the Nunnery, but I felt then and something to try and keep the railway open 'in "the Isle of Man because there I feel thds morning that if I was unem ployed, if I was one of those on short were so many members in this hon. Court with nothing else in their heads time on the Island, or if I was on a low but money and get rid of everything. income, I would not expect this Court I am not one of those people; I much to be giving out open ended cheques. I prefer to have the railway and some feel that our supporters, both lots, have article that we can look on for years helped us very much to realise how and years to come. Money can fly out much it is going to cost us in the future through the window overnight. I am if we can get this line going from Dou supporting this, Your Excellency, this glas to Po.rt Erin and that very much morning and I sincerely hope this hon. is my hope. My Commissioners have Court will also. asked me to support it. I realise that it is going to foe a lot of money and I am Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I am not expecting it to be done this year. naturally .going to support the resolu On the question of the keeping of the tion. I would like to point out that ■boundaries of the railway, I would there are two societies supporting our have thought that we have a large sup railway, the Isle of Man Steam. Rail ply of unemployed people, including a way Supporters’ Association, the lot of those on the special list, and I Memorialists here, and the Isle of Man would have thought there could have Railway Society. I applaud them both been some sort of work scheme. I am and especially, as he is not able to be one of those who believe that we should present here, Dr. Hendry and his fam not foe just giving out dole here, there ily together with Mr. Richard Evans and everywhere, we should expect and Mr. Warhurst, who did so much something in return. Finally, if I might to get the railway museum going and say that I think that this Court suffers have 'given us so much business-like in from the misfortune that the Chairman formation on the running of the rail of the Finance Board is not one of way over the years. I particularly ap those who enjoys playing with trains
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. T298 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 and we are suffering now from some form us as to what your views are if deficiency in his upbringing. you have? The Speaker: Could I ask the Mem Mr. A. Beard : I have brought over orialist in your opinion is it essential experts from Wales and other places to for the preservation of the Steam Rail examine the track between Douglas way on the most economical terms that and Ballasalla and they have told me the repair yards at Douglas are made and assured this Association that the available to the operation? track is in no worse state between Dou Mr. A. Beard : Oh yes, you must have glas and Ballasalla than it is between repair yards and they must be at the Ballasalla and Port Erin. centre which is Douglas. This is the The Speaker : Thank you very much. •major problem at the moment facing Your Excellency, naturally I support them. They have no repair sheds at all the resolution before the Court this on the shortened section either from morning. Your Excellency, I would Castletown to Port Erin, or from Balla point out to the Court that perhaps, salla to Port Erin. There are no facil throughout the Agenda today, we are ities to maintain an engine or a coach, reaping a harvest that we ourselves there is just nothing down there at all, have sown, or helped to sow, in recent no machinery whatsoever, they cannot years. We are coming to a situation even give an engine a boiler wash-out where at all times cash, or the lack of on the shortened section at the present cash, is the vital thing in relation to a time. Tliis is why in the last season an host of operations in the Isle of Man engine has had to go back to Douglas that we would wish to see retained. every two or three weeks to have a The hon. member for Castletown voted, boiler wash-out. I believe, against the Nunnery yester The Speaker : It is then essential to day for that reason. Others will prob have access to the Douglas repair yards ably vote for a reduction in the Steam for the long term maintenance of this Railway for the same reason, and so we system? go on. My point is this that we have reached this stage through the guidance Mr. A. Beard : Yes, oh yes. of our Finance Board and all along The Speaker : Could you also tell me through the last few years we have whether in your view to maintain the been dorking on a pattern where we system with the least loss to the oper lave to hold on to the cash, the hard ators it is essential to operate out of a ■ash Mne at a standard rate of income section of Douglas Station? tax and lose the things that are import ant to the Isle of Man. Mr. A. Beard : Yes I would agree. The Association does not agree with the Mr. B ell: Question. keeping of Douglas Station as it is and Mr. Speaker: It may be a question in as it stands today. Plans have been put your mind, there is no question in forward of how you could run out of mine. My point here is that I think the the goods siding which has an entrance time is coming for the Court perhaps on Lake Road and run out of the side to change its ideas and challenge the boundary of the property alongside the viewpoint of its Finance Board who carriage sheds and out on to the Port have determined the policy that has Erin line. That land is a very small put us in this mess today. As for the parcel of land and you could get rid of Steering Committee, the Steering Com the rest of Douglas Station for indus mittee are doing their utmost, as I see trial purposes. We do not advocate the it, to make the best of a bad job. When keeping of Douglas as it stands today. one says nationalise, which I think is The Speaker : One further question, the only thing to do with it, this rail Your Excellency. Comment has been way system, nationalise it, not taking made on the state of the railway be the horns and leaving the hide as the tween Douglas and Ballasalla. Have you member for Glenfaba has said, which any experience of this and can you in we are already experiencing with rela
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T299
tion to the part we have taken over, nat this service, if it is to be a viable service, ionalise it and then we get told “where if it is to be of any value at all as a do we get the cash?” Of course we railway system, must operate out of will get the cash. If we are determined Douglas and I do not say operate out enough we can do these things. I would of the whole of Douglas Station. I think wish that this Court would exert itself that would be impractical, but it must in this direction. We will never get a have operation facilities to the repair satisfactory solution to this particular yards and a point in the town where problem until that is achieved. Make it can tap the travelling public and I no mistake about it, from What we have believe reduce the loss, the overall loss, heard this morning, the Railway Com which will be sustained if we maintain pany does not wish to operate the line it on the minor line which is being re out of Douglas at any cost because they commended today as the only possible want to dispose of the whole of the thing that we can do at this moment assets of Douglas Station, very rightly and I would agree. We have got to take but I would add without any consulta this as a step forward, but at the same tion with their shareholders. It is in time as we make that step forward, let teresting that the shareholders have us by all means say now that we want not, as I understand it, been consulted that step to be extended to Douglas. If about this particular deal, strange but, cash comes into it, hon. members, let I believe, true. We find that it is essen us find the cash. This is the point. We tial that the repair yards should be can tell our Finance Board that they kept available for the system and that have to find the cash for us. I do not to have access to the repair yards we see any objection to that sort of system must come into Douglas by the line that being in operation. This is a declar has been criticised by the Railway atory point as far as the amendment is Company themselves, and I believe for concerned and it would, I believe, in a purpose. In supporting the resolution dicate the feelings of the House today this morning and complimenting those to the Steering Committee that in fut who have brought the Memorial to the ure we are determined to preserve a Court I would also wish to support Mr. little more of what is available to us in Cringle’s point of view, also put for the way of attractions such as the Isle ward by several other members and of Man Steam Railway. I beg to move. move as an amendment to the resolu Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, a point tion that the following words be added of clarification. Is it our first duty to to paragraph (2) “ and further that the Manx nation at this time to ensure Tynwald is of the opinion that the line that our national debt is very greatly between Douglas and Port Erin be contained and is it our duty therefore maintained with a view to the service to be cautious in public spending on being continued over the whole section projects however much they personally at the earliest opportunity.” What this engage our sympathies? May I speak means is that Tynwald is .giving an in in relation to the infiltration of monies dication to the Steering Committee that from such places as Spain, Germany, we do want this held and that we are and the Middle East .... not going to be told on some future oc casion, “But you had your opportunity The Governor : I am sorry to inter when we came on that day.” It will be rupt you. You have clarified your point, the following words be added as para have you? You have obtained the clari graph (2) renumbering the existing fication which you seek? motion as paragraph (1) “And further Mr. Bell: Is the amendment sec that Tynwald is of the opinion that the onded? line between Douglas and Port Brin be maintained with a view to the service The Governor: Not yet, no. being continued over the whole section Mr. MacLeod: May I ask a question? at the earliest opportunity.” This is to The Governor: Yes, please, sir. indicate, on the part of the Branches I hope, that we are of the opinion that Mr. MacLeod : Is it not a fact at this
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. T300 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975
■present time that the repair yards in schemes. There is no doubt whatever Douglas 'have already been dismantled? that members of Finance Board have Mr. A. Beard: They are at present co-operated to the full in investigation being dismantled, yes. of schemes and in putting schemes for ward, whatever Mr. Speaker may say. Mr. MacLeod ; What is the good of -We have the hon. member here of the having to bring the engines in to Dou Council, Mr. Crellin, who is a member glas if there are no facilities to put- of this Steering Committee and has them in? worked extremely hard on it. The Fin Mr. A. Beard : There are no- facilities ance Board are ready today to support 'anywhere on. the shortened section for fully the proposal -that we should put repair sheds either. an extra £5,000 in to extend this line Mr. MacLeod: You would have to to Ballasalla, but we are not going to build new ones. enter into foolishness and suggest that Mr. A. Beard : They would have to Tynwald should tell Finance Board toe Ibuilt toy the Railway Company even where to get off. What have you got a Finance Board for? The polity that we on the shortened section. have adopted during the past nine Mr. MacLeod : Thank you. years nobody can, deny has brought Mr. Ranson: I feel everything that considerable prosperity to the Isle of was necessary to have ¡been said on Man. That prosperity is utterly necess this resolution this morning has toeen ary. If we had1 not had this prosperity said and 'an awful lot -that need not we would not have a railway at all have toeen said has toeen said. All I today; we should not have been able have got to say is I will support the to do what we have done. These are resolution and would like fully to- the factors that We must bear in mind. endorse at this moment the remarks- of We have extended1 our welfare services, the Speaker in that this is the result our educational services, our health of the financial policy of the present service, our social services, we have Finance Board. done all these things and we have been able to' do them and still maintain a Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, to test buoyant economy. I trust that never the feeling of this Court I beg to second the amendment of Mr. Speaker. will this Court take the slightest notice of the financial advice that it receives The Governor: Thank you. from Mr. Speaker. Mr1. Bolton: Your Exlcellency, I am Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, just very glad -the amendment has been briefly on the amendment. It does seem seconded because it (gives me an oppor quite clear that anyone who is toi sup tunity to answer *he kind of foolishness port Mr. Speaker’s amendment is of the that the hon. Mr. Speaker is proposing very small minority who enjoy tilting at — “.Let the money go out of the win windmills because this is exactly the dow. Forget about financial consider type of amendment it is. The term ations, let us have a toy railway” — viable is used in support of the -amend the height of foolishness tout typical of ment, where a private company trading Mr. Speaker’s attitude not necessarily for years have been unable to continue today, but -as the hon. member Mr. a viable structure and whereas the Gov Simcoeks pointed out yesterday^ for ernment supporting deficiencies are un many years. Bright ideas. These ¡bright able t0 get a viable solution, to talk ideas are no good at all unless financial about lengthening the liability of a considerations are brought into play ¡longer route and still getting to a and nobody can 'accuse -this present viable position, with t'he necessity of Finance Board for the past nine years 'building additional repair shops and of being mean or objecting to schemes with the embracing of certain of the which were of real value or of not mak recommendations of the Memorialists ing sure that a proper investigation has about changing from coal to oil, all of occurred' in connection with all these these things, and the Memorialist’s
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Fort Erin Operation — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T301 memoiandum does not even take decision from the Court as to. whether ■account of any rents or charges for the we should obtain this line or not in use of the lines or the equipment. I dto the light of all the evidence that we not want to fall out or have a go on collect and we will give you all the those lines, I merely wish to say that evidence, the good and the bad, surely the amendment is ia non-starter. Tyn then this amendment would be — wald are not the owners of the railway. The Speaker: In keeping. Tynwald have elected1 to enquire into many of the facets of Island transport Mr. Nivison : — Unnecessary. It will through their own Steering Committee be a similar idea. To maintain some and this Steering Committee is report thing, which the amendment states, ing back. We are not taking the mem that does not belong to us, we could bers of Tynwald over big financial not go on their land now and maintain hurdles, we are only bringing back it. We, I am sure the — what we know is reasonably expected The Speaker: On a point of order, of us by Tynwald. If you deal with the Your Excellency, the railway cannot amendment and reject it, we will know close without the authority of Tynwald that you do not wish us to follow this anyway. suicidal economic policy. Mr. Kneale: Oh yes it can. The Governor: I call on the hon. Mr. Nivison: The Railway Company Chairman to> reply. have already had the authority to close Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, can the railways and we re-opened this. I just, if I may, deal with the amend I will give this assurance, do not let ment firstly, not in a critical sense be us get off on another hare, we have cause I do- 'appreciate that there are -an got this minuted that we are going into awful lot of people in this Court who this. I would say that the reply that do Want to consider very seriously the we have had from the Railway Company position of the line between Douglas does indicate that there are a lot of and Ballasalla. I would say and I would difficulties and it would be a costly appeal to iMr. ¿Speaker and I would exercise. “We have no doubt at .all pledge to this Court that we will carry that if .all the Company’s statutory out our obligation that we have already obligations, plus the reasonable require started upon. We have, in answer to ments of the Inspecting Officer of Rail a letter from the Company, where they ways and those of our Insurers were asked us, the Steering Committee, act to' toe met 'and satisfactory provision ing for Government, if we were in madte for renewals, repairs, renovations terested, would we consider the poten of buildings, tracks, rolling stock, the tial state ownership of the line between annual deficit on the operation of the Douglas and Ballasalla, exclusive of the full 15£ miles would be truly excessive.” stations. This is what they say but I do say — A Member : But including the rails. A Member : So would the fare be too. Mr. Nivison: Yes, including the rails Mr. Nivison: Yes. I do say we will ■—^ they have asked1 us to look into this. study this and We will ask Tynwald We have written in turn to them ask to make the decision. I do not think we ing them1 as to the economic position could be fairer than that. So- those regarding the running of a train over people who do think along those lines those lines and the physical possibility, will have the fullest opportunity. X such things as gradients, such things would like to say I am very grateful •as the sleepers and all the rest of it. for the many people who have spoken A reply has been received 'and will be about this particular subject. One in considered by the Steering Committee. particular who requires an answer was If we were to assure this Court that the hon. memtoer for Ayre when he made we would come ibaok to the Court in reference to the fact ’that to the ’buses the light of this correspondence with that will be bringing the people we the Railway Company and get the already were paying 50 % of the capital
I.O.M. Railway — Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. T302 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975
cost. This is true in reapect of the The Speaker : I will do that if you scheduled buses Ibut no.t in respect of like. the operating coaches. It is the coaches, Mr. Nivison : That may be a sug generally, that would toe encouraged to gestion. Some of the line may not be bring the (peoiple to Ballasalla. It is valuable at all, I do not know. We Tours (Isle of Man) for which they could always enquire into what these do not get that assistance at all. I sort of things would cost and .then Tyn would say, too, that they are optimistic, wald can decide. It may well be that the Company is optimistic in next sea it is prohibitive, it may well foe on the son and they do hope that the time other hand that it could be quite a will arrive when they will not have to desirable thing to do. I can assure you draw upon the amount of money that that the Steering Committee will not We put down as a possible loss. They lose sight of what has been said today are hoping that things will go so much and I do hope you will pass this reso better in the future. This is just the lution. second, as has been said toy my col leagues on the Committee, the second Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, be of a two year experiment, a two year fore the amendment is put to the hon. experiment, bearing in mind that it Court, could we have it read out to Was strongly recommended by various us again to get it clarified. If I under people that the whole line should be stand it correctly it referred to request closed down. We have been reluctant ing the Railway Company t0 maintain to do this and we have said “No, we the section of line from Douglas to Port Erin in a reasonable state of order. must keep hold of part.” It was on our suggestion that they should keep a Are we aware of what we are com mitting ourselves to ? short section plus a museum and we would have hoped that this could have The Governor : May I read out the gone out of Douglas and we will explore amendment ? That the following words this possibility. be added as paragraph (2) re-number ing the existing motion as paragraph Mr. Irving: You will keep trying. (1), and I quote “And further that M^. Nivison: We will explore this Tynwald is of the opinion that the line possibility and we have recently between Douglas and port Erin be written to them. I would say however, maintained with a view to the service regarding the Memorialists I share the being continued over the whole section views of those who say about both at the earliest opportunity.” organisations “thank you for wihat you Mr'. Bell: Maintained? are doing to- try to keep this thing Mr. Clucas : Of the opinion. going.” I do say in reapect of the Memorial itself that is presented to1 us, The Governor : Be maintained. they do ask the Court to reject the A Member: By whom? (Interrup motion that is before you and I do say tions). to them in that respect I must fall Members: Retained. out with them. If you do reject this particular resolution time alone would The Governor : Retained, or with the defeat us doing anything else, if no approval of the Court — “toe retained.” other factor, time, money, all sorts of Mr. Nivison: Excuse me, Your Ex things. We will investigate the whole cellency, a matter of clarification. “Re problem. I _am very grateful to mem tained by the iR'ailway Company.” We bers and I know that they will pass could request that they might not do this resolution. With regards to the something with it, we could request it. amendment, it was suggested that per I think really, rather than have this haps Mr. Speaker might, instead of worded if you would leave it to the moving that kind of amendment, might Steering Committee, Mr. Speaker. I have moved an amendment to take over can assure you they have already com the line. municated with us, we will bring back
I.o.M. Railway —- Operation from Ballasalla to Port Erin Subject to Conditions and Consideration of Douglas-Port Erin Operation — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T3Q3
their considered reply to Tynwald after SLAUGHTERHOUSES (HYGIENE) we know all the facts of the thing, REGULATIONS — APPROVED rather than have an amendment of this The Governor: Item number 12, The 'kind which can be very dangerous in 'Chairman of the Local Government my view. Board. The Governor: You are being as'ked, Mr. Radcliffe : Your Excellency, I beg Mr. Speaker, if you would agree to a to move :— withdrawal of the amendment. Do you withdrawi it? That the Slaughterhouses (Hygiene) Regulations 1975 made by the Isle of The Speaker : No. I do not withdraw Man Local Government Board on 7th it. Your Excellency, the amendment November 1975 under the provisions of merely affords the Court the opportun the Food and Drugs Act 1963 be and ity of expressing a view on the reten the same are hereby approved. tion of that line between Ballasalla and Douglas and the desirability of I do not think there is any great doing so and I accept the word “retain need to go into any great depth on this ed” as opposed to “maintained.” matter. It is purely and simply new The Governor; Hon. members, may regulations to ibe introduced at the I first (Put the question that the pro abattoir operations to comply with the posed words in the amendment moved E.E.C. regulations. I beg to move. by the hon. Mr. Speaker be added! to Mr. Anderson : I beg to second, Your the main question. Will those in favour Excellency. ■please say aye, and those against say The Speaker : Your Excellency, may no. I ask a question on this point ? A division was called for and voting The Governor: Yes, Mr, Speaker. resulted as follows :— The Speaker: On these hygiene regu IN THE KEYS lations, are these the regulations that F o r: Messrs. Anderson, MacLeod, deal with the disposal of casualty Kermeen, Clu-cas, Miss Thornton- animals ? 'Duesfoery, Messrs. Creer Ranson, Members: No. Faragher, Cringle, Low’ey, Mrs. The Speaker : They dieal with casualty Quayie, Messrs. Moore, Ward, Irv in particular and that is the point I ing, Miss Cowin, Mrs. Hanson, Mr. wish to touch on? Hislop, Sir Henry Sudgen, and1 the Speaker — 19. Mr. Radcliffe: The regulations are Against: Messrs. Radcliffe, Sipittall, designed purely for the observance of Bell, Devereau, MacDonald — 5. the sanitary and hygiene conditions connected with the operations at the The Speaker: Your Excellency, the slaughterhouse and the handling of amendment carries in the House of meat therein. Keys 19 votes being cast in favour Mr. MacLeod : Your Excellency, may and 5 against. i ask a question specially with regard IN THE COUNCIL to the abattoir as the only place where For : Messrs. Bolton, Quayie, Kneale, ■animals can be slaughtered. Crellin and Simcoeks — 5. Mr. -Radcliffe : Basically, what we are Against: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. dealing with is the slaughterhouse Nivison, Crowe and Kerruish — 4. hygiene regulations. As far as I am concerned, Your Excellency, anybody The Governor: In the Council, 5 in touching on that topic can ask any favour, 4 against, the amendment questions they think fit as long as they therefore carries. I will now put the are touching on that specific topic. main question with the amendment as ■carried. Those in favour please say aye, The Speaker: In that case, Youir those against. The ayes have it. Excellency, may I ask the hon. member
Slaughterhouses (Hygiene) Regulations — Approved, T304 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975
for Ayre is it a fact (that in these nuation Act 1975 be and the same is hygiene reigulations there is a pro hereby approved. vision that all casualty animals enter Members have been supplied with an ing the abattoir must be accompanied explanatory note concerning the order by a veterinary certificate ? made by the Board of Education under Mr. Radcliffe: No. I would like to the Teachers’ Superannuation Act 1975 clarify that point. The situation is that which extends to the Isle of Man all any animals suspected to have died of regulations presently current in the any disease, if the m a n who owns the United Kingdom with certain modifica animal feels that that animal or is tions and adaptations set out in the aware of the fact that an animal has rather voluminous Schedules. For that toy any chance been a victim of any reason I do not think it necessary to disease whatsoever, he must then get comment further on this subject. There a veterinary certificate before he can is only one thing, -and if I may, Yotur ask for the animal to be put in the Excellency, just point out that as a abattoir. If the animal, for instance, consequence of the new procedure, the is a casualty, has a broken leg and the ■Board, in conjunction with the Civil farmer knows very well or in his Service Department, will assume a opinion it has got no disease whatever greater administrative responsibility as connected with it there is nothing to we will now .undertake the assessment stop him putting that animal straight of pensions of all teachers who retire in. I specifically raised this point -be from service in the Island and also, cause, when- it was drawn- to my will deal with the transfer of pension -attention that there was a possibility rights for teachers moving into and out of the farmer, who may have, shall we of the Island. Until now this work has say a sheep valued at £6 or £7, with been carried out on our behalf by -the a broken- leg and he is going to have Department of Education and Science to get a Vets’ certificate before he can ■with whom there has always been a put it to the abattoir it would cost pos happy working arrangement. From sibly as much to get the vets’ certificate time to time it may be necess as it would cost to -have the animal ary for us — I am sorry but I feel put into the abattoir and at Was going I must make this clear — to make to mean, possibly we would have dead f urther orders -when the amended regu animals on the countryside which we lations -are introduced in the United did not want to have. There is no Kingdom but of course such must come question about it whatever unless there before Tynwald. One fin-al thing, may is some complication regarding disease I express the -appreciation of the Board of the animal no veterinary officers’ to Mr. Young, the legal draftsman who certificate is required. has done a very tremendous' amount of work on this -subject. I move the reso The Governor: Is that agreed hon. lution, Your Excellency. members ? The Governor : Is that 'agreed, hon. It was agreed. members ? It was agreed. TEACHERS’ SUPERANNUATION REGULATIONS (APPLICATION) MENTAL HEALTH ORDER — APPROVED (HOSPITAL AND GUARDIANSHIP) The Governor : Item number 13. The REGULATIONS — APPROVED Chaiim-an of the Board of Education. The Governor: Item number 14, the Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Your Ex Chairman of the Health' Services Board. cellency, I beg to m ove:— Mr. Creer: Your Excellency, I beg That the Teachers’ Superannuation to move :— Regulations (Application) Order 1975 That the Mental Health (Hospital made by the Isle of Man Board of and Guardianship) Regulations 1975 Education under the Teachers’ Superan made by His Excellency the Lieutenant
Teachers’ Superannuation Regulations (Application) Order — Approved. — Mental Health (Hospital and Guardianship) Regulations — Approved. TYNWALD COURT; DECEMBER 10, 1975 T305
Governor and by the Isle of Man a backwater in matters of social reform, Health Services Board on 24th Novem still we await a modem Mental Health ber 1975 under the provisions of Sec Act. The only point I would like to tions 23, 24 and 29 of, and paragraph make is that the party that I represent, 16 of Schedule 3 to, the Mental Health the Riushen Labour Party, has taken a Act 1974, be and the same are hereby great interest in the Mental Health Act approved. over very many years, over 15 years These are the Mental ¡Health regu1- ■and we are dtelighted to see the Chair lations, I beg to move. man of the Health Services Board intro ducing this and we welcome it with Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I do' not open arms. Thank you. want to take the time up really on this tout, it is a fact that the newly- The Governor: I take it that is elected member for Rushen had, in his agreed, hon. members ? manifesto that it was time we had the It was agreed. Mental Health Act. Of course we do have that (Mental Health Act 1.974, so obviously the ¡public are not aware of TYNWALD CEREMONY it. I would have thought that the Chair ARRANGEMENTS — VARIATION man of the Health Services Board (OF CONSTITUTION OF would toe cognisant of the fact and he COMMITTEE — DEFERRED ■would have taken the opportunity to outline briefly the changes in the effec The Governor: Item number 15. The tive date. Now you have the regulations hon. Mr. Speaker. does that mean that persons will be in The Speaker : Your Excellency, on receipt of ¡further treatment for stress my desk yesterday 1 found a memor and mental health? Obviously the andum from the learned Deemster re public 'are not aware of it. lating to this resolution which I have Mr. Creer: The main thing is, Your not had! time to study, Your Excellency Excellency, that We have been waiting 'and, as Ï placed this resolution on the since 1959 for the Mental Health Act Agenda at the wish of the House of ■and that now we have already got it Keys I am sure that the House would on the Statute Book and the appointed wish, and the Council also, to have day is the 1st of January. Under the ■time to examine properly any submis regulations the Mental Health Tribunal sions which have come to hand before is set up 'and it is going to make it & reaching a conclusion. Accordingly I lot easier. Under the old Act people in ask leave of the 'Court under the terms mental institutions could not be re of Standing Ord«- 17 to defer the fol leased until they got somebody to- lowing resolution until the February vouch to take them out. Under the sitting. regulations now and under the new WHEREAS Tynwald, by resolutions Mental Health Act all these people that dated the 18th December 1945, 4th June have been in the institutions' for ia good 1946, 12th July 1966 and 19th January number of years and have not got any 1971 respectively, constituted a Stand body to take them out, under the Men ing Committee on which are conferred, tal Health Tribunal they can get out inter alia, certain functions relative to if the Mental Health Tribunal deems the procedure at the Tynwald it so. Ceremony. Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, I am AND WHEREAS in the light of indebted to the hon. member for South changed circumstances it its advisable to Douglas for mentioning my recent vary the constitution of such Committee manifesto and in regard to the Mental which at present consists of the First Health Act, I am sure he has not had a Deemster, Speaker of the House of copy but I have a copy in my hand and Keys, Chairman of the Government he can read it later. I say, in fact, in Property Trustees and the Government my manifesto that we must cease to toe Secretary.
Tynwald Ceremony Arrangements — Variation of Constitution of Committee — Deferred. T306 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975
RESOLVED :— That the Standing Tynwald began this marathon discus Committee on the Tynwald Ceremony sion over the future of the Manx Arrangements consist of the Speaker of Electric Railway. It was in May 1974 the House of Keys, the Chairman of the that the report commissioned by the Government Property Trustees and one Executive Council from Transmark Member of Tynwald to be elected by was debated, but the only decision Tynwald provided that if the Chairman reached was to refer the problem to of the Government Property Trustees the newly created Steering Committee is a member of the Council such elected of Tynwald on Transport. This Com member shall be a member of the Keys mittee reported last February, agree and if the Chairman of the Government ing with one of the three options pro Property Trustees is a member of. the posed by Transmark, namely that all Keys such elected member shall be a M.E.R. services should cease during the member of the Council. winter months and that the northern line should be closed. The Committee’s Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, would1 Report was approved by Tynwald last I be in order to sfate quite categorically March, whereupon my Board w!as that >1 understand the desire of the charged with: the duty of instituting the House to press this matter forward. I detailed procedure laid down in the feel that the impasse between the House ,1957 Manx Electric Railway Act for and the mover is a matter . . . the discontinuance of services. Sub Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, on a point sequently, my Board1 oame to Tynwald of order is not the motion before us last July and the resolution for winter that the matter be withdrawn and that closure was approved, the matter of the precludes debate on the issue ? northern line being left in abeyance to The Governor: You may speak await the report of the consultants against the motion madam if you wish. engaged by Ramsey Town Commis sioners which was promised for last Miss Cowin: I wanted to make it September. In the course of discussions known publicly that the House is not which I had on the 16th August with unanimous in its feelings with regard these consultants, I learhed that their to the Deemster. report would probably 'pot be ready The Governor: Is it agreed that this until November. Accordingly, I gave a should be deferred, hon. members ? personal undertaking that no steps It was agreed. would be taken to raise the matter in Tyruwald at or before the November sitting. That undertaking has been MANX ¡ELECTRIC RAILWAY — Observed to the letter despite tihe seri TERMINATION OF SERVICES ON ous difficulties which it has created for LAXEY—RAMSEY LINE my Board. Ever since the Tynwald — APPROVED resolution of last March it has been -Government policy that the M.E.R. The Governor : That brings us to Board should only operate certain item number 16. The Chairman of the limited summer services but, until my Manx Electric Railway. Board have received a clear mandate Mr. Clucas : Your Excellency, I beg concerning the operation of section 17 to move :— of the Act in relation to the northern line it has simply not been able to make That the Manx Electric Railway firm plans or preparations of any sort Board in terms of Section 17 of the for the future. This is the point I Manx Electric Railway Act 1957 be and would particularly ask hon, members the same is hereby authorised to termi to bear in mind. This is why my Board nate wholly forthwith all its railway have tabled this resolution (today. It transport services on the northern is not as some people would have it, railway line between Laxey and Ram my resolution; it is a resolution of my sey. Board. We just can not print, let alone It is some nineteen months now since issue, any timetables for next summer
Manx Electric Railway — Termination of Services on Laxey-Ramsey Line — Approved. TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T307 until we know what services are to ■have as much information as possible. operate. This is seriously damaging our Referring to today’s motion 1 must prospects ior 197:6, since tihe Tourist stress that this deals1 solely with the Board literature is now being despatch discontinuance of services. There is ed to enquirers 'and we, the M.®.R. will absolutely no question whatsoever in be unable to answer the flood of en my mind, or in the minds of (the other quiries which) usually reach us at the members of the Board, oí abandonment. turn of each year. Publicity, likewise, This is a quite separate matter which has already been badly affected and we is not covered by section 17 of the Act have had to concentrate on the Snaefell with which- we are now dealing. This mountain railway in order to meet appears -to me to have two virtues. If printing deadlines, or sacrifice publicity we pass this resolution iit in no wlay altogether. Finally, the Board must pre-empts the future since the line prepare its revenue estimates for the would toe safeguarded and we would next financial year just as every other ateo gain valuable experiences of next Board is required' to. Just imagine try summer's operation when the northern ing to prepare the Health Services line is excluded. However, to my mind Board estimates not knowing at this the most serious effect of this proposal date whether o,r not Ballarmona will toe will undoubtedly be felt toy the town open next year. This is the problem of Ramsey. I have referred to this in (the M:EJR. faces. Before discussing the the past, but I firmly believe that position last month all members of the urgent steps should be taken by Gov Board received oh the 19th ¡November ernment, in conjunction with the local a copy of a statement addressed to the authority, -to mitigate these effects. Ramsey Town Commissioners by Tram One could look firstly -at the aittractio-ns way (Museum (Services [Ltd. However, for holidaymakers within the town. Are this turned out to be merely a general there enough ? Could more be pro ised1 statement without any detailed vided ? Are those presently available findings and costings, these being prom publicised sufficiently ? Providing there ised in a final report currently being are attractions of various sorts the prepared. It was thus, with some sur tourists ¡will visit Ramsey and I should prise, that a fortnight after the state like to see the establishment of a ment was issued1 a letter iwas received liaison committee to -co-ordinate the from the consultants requesting more efforts of those who are prepared to information : ejg., details of all' tickets ■assist in this important (task. I have sold at Douglas, Laxey and Ramsey, refrained, on this ocoasion, from stating showing the cost per type of ticket from ¡any statistics since these figured prom the months of April to September 1975 inently in our -previous discussions. inclusive. Surely that request could Suffice to say that the procedures laid have been made in early October rather down in section 17 of the (Manx Electric than over (two months after the end ¡Railway Act have been complied with of the period referred .to. In other and we, the Manx Electric Board, now words, is there really that sense of seek the concurrence, after much delay, urgency which we were given to under of this hon. Court to remove the un stand last July when we deferred the certainty which at present bedevils any matter ? I should exiplain that the plans whilch we may have for the Board has co-operated to the utmost of ■future. I beg to move. its ability with the demands, etc., of these consultants. At the height of the Miss Thornton-Du,esbery: Your Ex season, in August, the Board’s staff set cellency, II rise to -second this resolution to and fully replied to the detailed moved by my hon. Chairman but I do questionnaire submitted by the con so from a very strong sense of duty sultants less than a fortnight after it and certainly with no pleasure. I know was received. Because of the very de I may well be accused of mere senti tailed nature of many of the questions mentalism, but it is true and I say that copies of Board papers were forwarded to feel it right to second this resolution, to the consultants t0 enable them to as I do, is a very real grief to me. My
Manx Electric Railway — Termination of Services on Laxey-Ramsey Line — Approved. T308 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975
first grief is on behalf of the Sheading ing positively enquiries from across the of Garff which I have the honour to water as to the availability or not of represent in 'this hon. Court and where the northern line. None of this have the northern line of the Manx Electric we been able to do and we cannot re Railway has been such an integral part main in a state of limbo. Decisions must of its life for so many years, with the be taken and definite plans and pro well-known and loved sight and sound visions made for the running of that of its cars passing along our coastline pant of the railway the continuance of between our fields and round the head which we know is assured. I cannot, of our glens and with its sociable, therefore, support further delay and courteous and enjoyable transport for thus second this resolution for the dis our residents whose numbers using the continuance of the line. I urge this hon. cars regularly may indeed be small, Court to be in no hurry to follow it by but such as there have been, have been seeking abandonment. Let us observe very dependent on this Manx Electric at least for one summer as our Chair Railway for itheir travel. They are man has said, the effect of the non feeling very lost without it and also working of this northern line and only the thousands of visitors who, through after that and with very close study the years, enjoyed this, I think univer again of the whole situation take any sally acclaimed, most beautiful part of 'irrevocable step. the line. Also it is a grief to me for Sir Henry Sugden : Your Excellency, Ramsey with all the town’s difficulties I beg to propose that in terms of and, thirdly on my own account, for the Standing Order 17 the motion standing Manx Electric Railway has been a loved as item 16 on the Agenda paper in re friend of my whole life from early spect of the Manx Electric Railway childhood and that is quite a long time stand adjourned until the sitting of now. Hon. members know I have fought Tynwald next following the completion for the continuation of this part of the and circulation to Tynwdld of the final line right up to the July sitting of this report of the Committee of Experts hon. Court when, as a member of the commissioned by the Ramsey Town Board I opposed this particular resolu Commissioners to consider and report tion for discontinuance coming before on (the feasibility -of continuing ithe us. I did so because a new body of Ramsey/Laxey service. If I could just people had come forward and offered, quote a little from their report. “The through the Ramsey Town Commis inspection carried out by the inspec sioners, to review the whole situation tion engineer of the Manx Electric with the real hope of being able to find Railway Board concluded that the line some way to save the northern part of was rapidly becoming generally unsafe. the line without the vast expense fore cast by the other investigating body. 1 A consultant’s inspection revealed there felt the matter so important that at was indeed a great deal of work to be least all possible voices should be heard done quickly to improve track and this on the subject before decision was could be accomplished with proper planning and utilisation of resources. taken. We are well into December and this body has so far not been able to All this investigative work has taken much longer than was originally estim produce a full report or a way of sal vation for the line. This may yet occur, ated due ito delays in being granted I long that it may. In the meantime access to the statistical information re however as, I hope, a responsible mem quired |and then, ultimately .to have ber of the Board I have to face prac processed this raw data into a form for ticalities as mentioned by our Chair suitable analysis. It is felt essential that man. The estimates must be in by the the work is done thoroughly and com end of the month. If the line is to be prehensively in order to enable sound, working next summer, repairs and well substantiated recommendations to work on it should be well in hand now. be submitted in the final report which We ought already to have been arrang will be appended to the detailed report ing timetables, engaging staff, answer on the condition of ¡the track and
Manx Electric Railway — Termination of Services on Laxey-Ramsey Line — Approved. TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T309
vehicles. This vital section was far Mr. Irving : You can not. from being unviable and incapable of Mr. Bell: You cannot reserve your further development if only .an en remarks on an amendment. lightened, energetic and positive man agement approach was adopted. There The Governor : This is not an amend is a very real and untapped market ment, it is a substantive motion and if potential for developing the commercial you wish to reserve your remarks you tourist traffic and thus of increasing the are entitled to do so. revenue of passenger traffic. A consid Miss Cowin: In view of what has erable amount of capital can be real happened already this morning in -com ised, possibly in excess of £100,000, by mon fairness I think this delay should the sale of under-utilised and unused be granted. vehicles. This conservative financial The Governor: Mr. Speaker. estimate ds based upon discussions with the leading traffic dealers in this field. The Speaker : I rise to support Sir Careful release 'in this way could in Henry Sugden in his contention, Your turn assist in financing the vital track Excellency, that the delay should be renewals and maintenance.” It goes on granted. It is expected that this report like that sir. I know perfectly well that will be through within a month. We there will be a complete bottle-neck at have information already to that effect Laxey because the Douglas/Laxey which I know the- hon. members for trams can take far more passengers Ramsey can confirm. I know it is no than can the trams up Snaefell. There desire on the part of this Court to close 'is no doubt about that at all. I was this line if there is an alternative. It Chairman of the Board for a number of may be that this will show clearly years and I must accept responsibility there is no alternative, but what he is for not repairing, shall we say, the seeking is time and time to get the re Ramsey—Laxey line because we could port through. I think we owe it to- Ram not get ithe money out of the Finance sey Commissioners, in particular, who Board. That was the reason. There will are going to be vitally affected with be that great hiatus at Laxey at the the seasonal trade and to our -tourist beginning of the season and once it has trade, that the deferment should be per happened three or four times word mitted. I support it. will get round about it and so fewer Mr. Bolton : Your Excellency, in view and fewer people will go on the Manx of what the hon. mover of the resolu Electric railway, of that there is no tion and the hon. seconder said about doubt. About 70,000 ¡people went into the difficulties which face them at the Ramsey each year, of that I am quite moment in view of uncertainty, is this certain, and that number will be cut off going to create more difficulty by de because I doubt 'if they will travel by lay? It seems to me that every possible bus, because out of the buses they can effort is being made to keep delaying not really see anything of the country. it, to- keep delaying dti, and when we The Governor : May Œ ask, are you get this other report, when this comes speaking to the main motion or are you forward, there will be somebody else proposing that it should be adjourned? who will have another bright idea. We have had so many reports on this mat Sir Henry Sugden : I am backing up ter, we have always got somebody who my contribution sir that the line should has the hope that somebody else will not be closed at the present time until think up something else and let us wait the receipt of the report. That is really until he says what about it. all I have to say. To my mind the Manx Electric Railway Board are going in Members : The Steering Committee. for something which is going to create Mr. Bolton: This is why we have got a complete nonsense. a Steering Committee. Mr. Hislop : I beg to second, Your Mr. B ell: We came back with the Excellency, and reserve my remarks. same conclusion.
Manx Electric Railway — Termination of Services on Laxey-Ramsey Line — Approved. T310 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975
Mr. Bolton : Yes. I think, Your Ex would not touch it with a barge pole. cellency, that we really want to con It would fall down. sider this very carefully and not just Mr. Ranson : Your Excellency could put it off, particularly as there is no I just take this opportunity to ask the time limit, this is indefinite. These Press about a statement in the paper of people who are preparing this report last week? can take their time about it, and it may well be months and no preparations Mr. Bell: Well you can write to them. can be made by the Manx Electric Mr. Ranson: I was in support of the Railway for the running of the line northern line being closed down. I do during this coming summer, no an not know where they got the informa nouncement can be made as to whether tion, but as the result of the last meet it runs or whether it does not and I ing of the M.E.R. the resolution from think, Your Excellency, that we have that Board which is going to be dis got to make a decision. We have a sug cussed in this Court, that was a major gestion now by the Board, who we all ity decision of the (Board and I am one know have been as keen on maintain of the members who voted against the ing this railway as anybody could be closing of the line at that meeting. I and to come along now and try and still hold that view. So much for that. interfere with that When they have got I feel I must, in the view that I have their minds made up and are suggest had, consistently had, on the closing of ing that we should pass the resolution, this line from the engineering point of I dio hope, sir, that the Court will ac view, I have stated before •—1 I am not cept what is put before them by the going through all that again, I gave the Manx Electric Railway Board and not reason why in my view it would be a accept an effort which there is no doubt disaster — I feel in spite of the difficul whatever is merely to delay what the ties of which I am well aware, the Board is trying to do. timetables etc., having a dateline by which they must be produced, in spite Mr. MacDonald : Your Excellency, I of all that, I feel that it is in the inter would support what the Chairman of ests of the M.E.R. that I must support the Finance Board has said. There is the amendment. 1 do not think the de nothing worse for a Board than to have lay of one month — Tynwald delaying and delaying and delaying and delaying them and stop Members: Who said a month? ping them carrying out an action that Mr. Ranson : Well the next Court I they, in their wisdom, and after long should presume. serious consideration and I am certain The Governor : Before I put the ques the hon. member for Garff would, not tion do you wish to speak sir? have ‘been here today supporting this, Mr. Ranson : We are assuming that unless she had very carefully gone into it would be here. Ilf it is not here there it. I think it is disastrous to do this. We will be no discussion on it. I cannot let had. If you remember, Your Excel the remarks of the hon. and gallant lency, possibly before your time, we member for Peel, Mr. MacDonald, pass had exactly the same delaying tactics without saying that there is nothing when we had a problem with the worse than delay and I do agree with Queens Pier before us, exactly the him. For the five years that I have been same, from the same quarters and then on the M.E.R. Board if anybody under the experts that they brought over stands the meaning of delay that then, who delayed and delayed and Board does, delay, delay, delay because eventually we got a report. What did we could not get money for this, that that report say? When we pointed out and the other. I fully appreciate there to this professional that his integrity is nothing worse than delay and thank would be judged on the report, he said you for bringing that up. exactly what the Harbour Board had Mr. Irving : Your Excellency, may I said months and years before. He by this move stake my claim here to
Manx Electric Railway — Termination of Services on Laxey-Ramsey Line'— Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T311 speak in t'he debate immediately after the running of Douglas/Laxey. (Inter lunch, sir. ruptions). What are your members do The Governor: I have no appoint ing? Obviously they are ill advised, or ment. they are just trying to cause a delay. The delay will not be just a delay, it Mr. Irving: You have not. Oh, well will be a complete abandonment of the sir. whole of the M.E.R. You want to waken The Governor: Thank you very yourselves up to responsibility and take much. (Laughter). some guidance from your Chairman. Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I am This is a dreadful situation. The Chair opposed to this amendment because it man has been renagued on again does mean that if this Committee of against the interests of the M.E.R. and Experts want to leave their final report against the Court’s interest there. until this time next year there is noth Cannot we get through to them some ing to stop them doing it. There is how? nothing we can do about it in the mean The Speaker: Your Excellency, sup time. The Laxey/Ramsey line will con porting the amendment, but seconding tinue to run. 1 am sure that is not the the amendment proposed by the hon. view of hon. members of this Court. I member, Mr. Irving, as a much more propose as an amendment that we realistic amendment, I would say this delete all the words after “sitting of tt^at there is no question of abandon Tynwald next”, that is from the word ment of the M.E.R. as the hon. mem “following” down to the end, “Laxey/ ber for Douglas South would suggest. Ramsey service” . By doing this it That is a matter for this Court. The means that there would be a delay question does not arise. All that is be until the next Tynwald. Even though I ing sought now, if you accept the am moving this amendment sir, even if amended version, would be a delay of it 'is carried, I intend to vote against one month to enable the fullest inform the amended amendment because I ation to come to hand. think there should be no further delay whatsoever. Mr. Clucas : Your Excellency, I would just like to correct a point. We are talk Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, is there ing now in terms of days, not weeks or any guidance? I understand the Chair months. My Board has a tremendous man of the Manx Electric Railway has task to perform bearing in mind the moved the resolution, item 16 and we Tynwald resolution of last March, con have a circular here from Sir Henry firmed by the Tynwald resolution of and he is moving something which we July, when the Court was afforded the understood was an amendment but he opportunity of varying that resolution, says it is not an amendment. and it rejected it. The point is that ever The Governor: lit is a substantive since then we are precluded from motion to 'adjourn. spending any money on the northern Mr. Bell: I see, yes, sir. Under Stand line, therefore it is not a normal main ing Order 17. Your Excellency, I cannot tenance job we have got to do, we have understand the people of this M.E.R. got to do in the remaining period be apart from the ones' who are support fore the 1st May what would normally ing the Chairman today trying to con be programmed for the whole of the tinue this delaying tactic. I know it is winter period. If I may correct Mr. bound to achieve a delay in respect of Speaker on perhaps what might be a this resolution, but are they not aware small point, I would remind him that that because of a previous Tynwald the next sitting of Tynwald is not a resolution when they adopted the month away, it is six weeks away. Six Steering Committee’s Report, the Fin weeks is six weeks. It is an awfully ance Board twice stopped — the Fin long time. The 1st iMay will be here ance Board are bound to take note of before we know where we are. The fact that positive and twice declared resolu is that if we do nothing now, if we de tion and there will be no money for fer it, the position is then there will be
Manx Electric Railway — Termination of Services on Laxey-Ramsey Line — Approved. T312 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975
no northern line next summer. All we weeks time, that six weeks is absol are simply wanting is a clear state utely crucial. I say again that one is ment, a Tynwald decision, on tihe work totally ignoring — what are we to say, the M.E.R. did by carrying out the pro people who are now writing into the cedures ¡Laid dotwn under section 17, Tourist Board to say what services are that is discontinuance not abandonment the M.E.R. running? Are we simply to as I said in my opening remarks. We say we do not know? Is not the likeli did this as a result of the decision, the hood then that they will go to the Isle direct will of Tynwald. What are you of Wight or to Majorca? It is the height doing, you people who in fact are sup of irresponsibility, Your Excellency, porting this, highly irresponsible (in that this amendment was tabled; that it terruptions) no, 1 am ashamed, I hate commands support, quite, frankly, is to say this, I am ashamed to find that beyond my comprehension. a member of Tynwald placing this Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, I resolution is a predecessor of mine, à would like to move a further amend Chairman of the ¡Board. I must ask, ment, “after the Sitting of Tynwald through the Chair, Sir Henry, when next” please include “which will follow did you start your work on the clear the completion and circulation to Tyn ing of the northern line during the win wald of the final report of the Commit ter period? Did you leave it until early tee of Experts.” (Interruptions). February? The Governor: Thank you very Sir Henry Sugden : As I said sir, I much. I take it that that is not sec could not start it because I could not onded, even if it were in order. (Inter get the rail from the Finance Board. ruptions). You have no right of reply Mr. Clucas : I am not talking about sir. the rail, I am talking about the main Mr. Hislop: Your Excellency, I am tenance, cleaning the ditches, the not claiming the right to reply. hedges, fences. None of this can be The Governor: You 'have no right to done because we have not the money reply in compliance with Standing or Tynwald’s approval to do it. I do Order 95. think myself that this is the height of irresponsibility. Talking about the con Mr. Hislop : I would not care but you sultants and the delay, they in fact only know we have supported everything in had five weeks of delay in (Obtaining connection with other parts of the Is the information from my ¡Board. Had land and there would appear to be at that five weeks not occurred, they the present moment (interruptions). I would still have got their preliminary am making just an ordinary statement report out by the end of September. If (interruptions). There has been a series you want any further proof as to how of things that have happened in the long this final report is going to be, on north of the Island which have taken Monday, Mr. Gilmour, the General away from the people certain, kinds of Manager of the Railway received a let features and this is now to be topped, ter from the Town Hall in Ramsey, as it were, by means of the attitude to saying — “Dear Sir : I have been asked wards the M.E.R. northern section. This by Mr. Bond to ascertain the size of the has nothing whatever to do with voting large storage shed on the right-hand at all. There is no doubt whatever that side of your track from Laxey to Dou lif the northern limb o f the Electric glas and adjacent to Laxey station. Railway was closed to Ramsey it would Yours faithfully.” For how many more make a tremendous difference to the months and weeks are we going to have position of our people who cater for these questions? I understood that the visitors. consultants were going to do a job for The Governor: Hon. members I will us rapidly. There is no sign at all of put the question which is proposed by urgency. Even if Mr. Irving the hon. Mr. Irving and seconded by the hon. Chairman of the.Tourist Board’s amend Mr. Speaker in the terms of Standing ment 'is approved that we do it in six Order 17 that the business standing as
Manx Electric Railway — Termination of Services on Laxey-Ramsey Line — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T313
item 16 on the Agenda shall stand ad been put in an extremely difficult pos journed to the Sitting of Tynwald next. ition, the position they have been put Those in favour please say aye. Against, in is caused by two previous decisions no. of this Court and prior to that, as Sir A division was called for and voting Henry has said today, a complete lack resulted as follows :— of financial support for this line in order to sustain it. That ds the real crux IN THE KEYS— of the problem that we are facing now; F o r: Messrs. MacLeod, Ranson, Miss the same problem as the Railway, the Cowin, Mr. Hislop, Sir Henry Sug- same problem as all ventures, money den and the Speaker — 6. not being available for preservation. The Manx Electric Railway Board Against: Messrs. Anderson, Ker- quite rightly wish to try and get on meen, Clucas, Radcliffe, Miss and produce a p,rofgramme for their Thomton-Duesbery, Messrs. Creer, track for operation next year but, Your Spittall, Faragher, Cringle, Lowey, Excellency, I would still cling to the Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Moore, Bell, vdew that that track has got to operate Ward, Irving, Devereau, Mrs. Han and Tynwald should change its mind son and Mr. MacDonald — 18. on this point in the light of hindsight. The Speaker: Your Excellency, the We are creating here a problem which resolution fails to carry 6 votes being hon. members who do not know this cast in favour and 18 votes against. area have no idea of what is being pre IN THE COUNCIL— sented in the way of difficulty in deal ing with the passengers who are going F or: Nil. to arrive at Laxey and who are quite Against : Messrs. Bolton, Quayle, unable to continue their journey to Kneale, Crellin, Nivison, Crowe, Ramsey. It is a problem not only of the Kerruish and Simcocks — 8. withdrawal of a service which has a The Governor : In the Council, none most attractive scenic route, but also in favour and 8 against, the resolution involves the town of Ramsey econom therefore fails. There is a further ically in every way. That town is hav amendment which was first tabled by ing its lifeline strangulated by this the hon. member for Ramsey and action which I appreciate that the seconded by the second hon. member Chairman of the M.E.R. Board is being for Ramsey. Those in favour of that forced to take today and his colleagues please say aye. Against, no. The noes1 also. I am sure it is no wish on their have it. The main resolution is now for part to bring this particular resolution. debate in the Court and has been pro We forced it on them, but as a gesture posed and seconded. I suggest that this of protest against that I will vote might be a convenient moment to ad against it, Your Excellency, and con journ. It has been proposed and sec tinue to do so in the hope that we will onded that is all. Is the Court ready to see again the Manx Electric Railway vote on the resolution? line continuing for the whole of its serviceable length. Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, could il just assist the hon. Court. I was re The Governor: Do you wash to re ply, sir? plying to the amendments which were moved and I would not wish in any way Mr. Clucas: Well, Your Excellency, to preclude the desire of members who significantly I am sorry to say that wish to speak on the main item 16 on neither of the hon. members for Ram the printed Agenda. sey took up the point I offered in my The Governor : That was my point. opening remarks about a Liaison Com mittee to try and counteract the clearly The Speaker: Your Excellency, I difficult situation that the closure of wish to speak to the resolution and op the northern line of the M.E.R. will pose it. I oppose it not because I real have on the town of Ramsey. I am very ise that the Manx Electric Railway have disappointed indeed, but I repeat that ______Manx Electric Railway — Termination of Services on Laxey-Ramsey Line —• Approved.
i T314 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975
and perhaps privately we might see if I am sure it was rather bad publicity we. can get something off the ground. to the Island. Regarding the Russian _ That is my endeavour and that is my trawlers not fishing within the limits desire. I would like purely to thank around about Windscale, I wish to state those members who have contributed the answers that we have come up to the debate to reassure hon. mem with in the ’Board of Agriculture. Even bers of this Court and all the people _in before I had my tea last night I had - this- Island, that it is the unanimous a phone call about this and it has been desire of my Board to run the Manx going on all last evening and all this - Electric Railway, not to run it into morning. The answers that I am putting .-.the ground as some would have you to you now, as far as we in the Board believe. It- is our wish to ensure that of Agriculture know, are factual. A the- Manx Electric Railway does become suggestion was made regarding the viable. We may well be taking certain ■absence of ¡Russian vessels in the incorrect decisions, hut I for my part Northern Irish Sea. We think this is - believe that I am taking the decision because of the fact that they have no - on. the best possible advice and inter- traditional fishing rights within the 12 .pretation of that advice that I can mile limit in this. area. The area of command. I am sure that hon. mem international waters between the 12 bers will join me in appreciating very mile limits of Ireland, Great Britain „ much the agony that my Vice-Chairman and the Isle of Man is so small as not jhas gone ^through in making the speech to make fishing economic for them. and seconding the resolution as she has One must remember that the Russian .done today. I think this is deserving of vessels rarely, if ever, fish singlely, our utmost respect. I beg to move. they always fish in large fleets and ' The Governor: Hon. members I will the comparatively .small areas in the “-■•p'ut the question as moved by the ■Irish Sea in which they could fish would ' Chairman. Those in favour please say not economically justify them fishing in "aye. Against, no. The ayes have it. fleet strength as is their ¡practice. The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries, and /The . Speaker : Please record me as Food frequently and regularly monitor . ■ against. ■all types of effluent including radio - The Governor : With that, hon. mem active waste being discharged into the bers, I suggest we should adjourn until Irish Sea. They also carry out frequent - 2-30 p.m. this afternoon. Is that agreed?; biological surveys in the Irish Sea. It was agreed. f Enquiries this morning from the Fisher ies Scientists at the Marine Biological Station confirm that they are certainly EFFECTS OF RADIATTON ON FISH ■not aware of the alleged,.'high level of STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN OF fish mutation in this area. The research BOARD OF AGRICULTURE vessel “ Guma” which sails, as you know, out of Port St. Mary, trawls out to 20 The Governor : Hon. memlbers, follow1- to 25 miles around the Island and in ing Mr. Clutoas’ statement yesterday', the past four years has only landed two this question of mutation and the1 ■unusual fish; one was a cod with a Russian trawlers not fishing in the Irish very large head and the other a skate and Celtic Sea, I understand' there has with peculiar wings. It must be pointed been some consternation about this out that mutations do ocfeutr naturally , locally and there has been bad1 public from time to time, but not in any num ity and therefore I have asked the ber to cause concern, certainly nothing Chairman of the Board of Agriculture to suggest radio-activity, the fish to make a statement on this in order mutations that have o'courred being to, try and put the record straight. brought about by natural causes, acci Mr. Crowe : Your Excellency, - as dent at birth or genetic mutation, in the -many hon. members will know, last same way as such mutations arise frotmi -evening (What had been said in the time to time in animals. Indeed, this Court was put out on television andi is often hoiw new species evolve. As
Effects of Radiation on Fish — Statement by Chairman of Board of Agriculture. TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T315
far as ¡the Isle of Man Board of Agri- the two sectors and will he also reveal “ culture is concerned we do ask boats please the source for his information ; which fish from the Island and when other than the Marine Biological1 they fish out towards- the United King Station ? - - - dom coast, especially in the Liverpool Mr. Clucas : Your Excellency, may I ■and Mersey areas or in the Windscale just ask a question and in s0 doing area, if we can have samples of the thank him for, as- I requested, investi escallops and queenies .they catch in gating the point. May I ask the hon. ■that area. We have (been doing this for Chairman of the Board of Agriculture the ¡past four or five years and then whether or not monitoring escallops we give them to the Government and queenies collected by Manx fisher Analyst in the Isle of Man and up to men would only in ¡fact detect the level .now .'they have not revealed any in of pollution on the sea bed and whether crease in the level of activity associated this is a proper and convincing method1 with any more nuclear substance than of ascertaining the level of contamin there was previously. We find nothing ation that may be in suspension in the wrong in the fish that were caught, currents themselves above the sea bed? nothing under test, the Ministry in the United Kingdom do not know of any, Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, so, therefore, I would' not like it going could I ask the Chairman or wouild outt that the Isle of Man brings in fish rather ¡his Board consider letting mem that is caught in an area which is bers know without questions ¡being detrimental to the 'health of the Island. ■asked in .the Court on matters of this I; think this is a very, very wrong thing type. Whilst I am asking a question -—■ I was very sorry the statement had with regard to his statement I am very been made, but I am trying to put it disturbed if it did get out because our ■right to the best of my ability. We will big market, as probably Mr. Devereau be able, in the future, to get in touch, knows, our big market is America and as the questioner, I think, asked that the Americans are extremely touchy these questions would be answered and ■over anything, the mere whiff and the we too in the Board of Agriculture will whole market will be killed dead. I do our very best to get further answers feel that when members have this type to this question. of question rather than airing it in public they, like I, and I am very The Governor: Thank you, Mr. interested in the fishing industry, I Crowe. ‘ find it quite easy to go to the Board The Speaker: Your Excellency, are of Agriculture, or to ring Mr. Corlett any questions to be permitted on that up and he gives me the information statement ? before I put the questions down in public. I think dt is very irresponsible, The Governor : On points of clari quite honestly, for him even to suggest fication certainly, Mr. Speaker. that there is any problem in the Irish The Speaker : Yes, clarification. When Sea. the Chairman says that the level has Mr1. Clucas : Are you the pot or the not increased, what does he mean by kettle ? . that statement, Your Excellency, and Mr. MacDonald: Sir, I am neither, wqpld he also indicate whether or not I am neither, and I am interested in French trawlers are working the area our fishermen and I do not want to see referred to by the hon. member for every fishing boat tied up in Peel Har A yre yesterday? We are aware that the bour because of a stupid question. French Protection Vessels are guiding them along the ¡Manx coast to certain Mr. Devereau: Your Excellency, if waters and assisting them in their I might just say a word on this. The . ability to break the local laws and in whole position that this answer has to this sense the French are also avoiding be given now shows the weakness of that particular area as well as the Rus our method of supplementary questions sians. There is trawling room between coming before the Chairman, which he
Effects of Radiation on Fish — Statement by Chairman of Board of Agriculture. T316 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 is not able to answer on the spot and bed if it is going to be suspended in the which results in this very toad publicity. water. It will certainly finish in the sea I regret it very much that the member bed. The tests we are making now are had to make a statement about the for shell-fish which come off the sea mutation in fish in this ¡way. I have bed and' if there has been no alteration been in (the fish business all my life in the standard of these shell-fi'sh over ■and I have seen very rare fish that have the last four or five years there seems been spoiled by any type of mutation. no reason whatsoever that we should There is sickness in fish, they are like be worried in any way. As far as the any other animal, some of them suffer hon. member, Mr. Devereau, is con and some of them come up in a peculiar cerned talking about the mutation in position, but to- suggest that this is due fish, this is something that happens in to radiation, is an irresponsible state the human-made body, in the baby this ment to make. I regret that questions happens quite often and it is not be of this nature are made which put to cause there is lead in the food that great risk the whole question of the they have when they are fed1, it is be fishing industry in the Island and1 in cause of something in the genetics or deed in the Irish Sea. It is no small something of that nature. It happens pant of the economy of the Isle of Mian, in animals. I remember when ,i wias a as it is indeed of the economy in the boy on our home farm we had a sheep Northern Isles. which had five legs, five definite legs f The Governor : Mr. Chairman do you and we had this sheep for many years, wish to reply ? and it had its lambs and it went on for many years. This can happen and it is Mr. Crowe: Yes, but some of the not because of the feed because it had questions I might have a little bit of the very same feed) as all the other difficulty in answering, sir, Mr. sheep, it had its grass and its turnips Speaker’s question first of all abouit and everything else, but this will hap ■the French trawlers in this area — as pen. I .am very sorry that this did get far as the protection we have had from broadcast last night, but I hope now ■the United Kingdom Protection Author that the Press will give publicity to this ity this year, it has been the best ever and say that to the best of our know and especially in the herring season ledge any fisheries within this area, or when they had practically a boat in within the area wherein we fish, is our area nearly all the time. This was as it was quite a few years ¡ago and no a very costly undertaking for them, alteration. but is was very beneficial to our fisher ies. These French trawlers, I think, are The Governor : Thank you Mr, Chair practically always fishing on their own man. and if they can .get into a small area, probably where they are permitted but outside the 12 miles and sometimes STEERING COMMITTEE ON within the 12 miles where they are not TRANSPORT — MR. G. T. permitted, they will fish if they get CRELLIN RE-ELECTED the chance. I think what I said previ The Governor : Item No. 17 on the ously as far as the Russian boats are Agenda. We have to elect a member of concerned they fish with the mother the Steering Committee on Transport, ship ¡with them and their catch is put being a member of the Finance Board, directly into the ship to save them consequent on the appointment of Mr. going back to their home ports. The G. T. Crellin as a member of Legis French fish in a different way and I lative Council. The Selection Commit think they are fishing in these areas tee have in terms of Standing Order just the same as our boats are. As far 179 recommended Mr. Crellin’s re- as any fall-out being suspended from, election. Is the recommendation agreed? the sea bed, this is something certainly I could not answer, but if there is any It was agreed. fall-out it will certainly be on the sea
Steering Committee on Transport —■ Mr. G. T. Crellin Re-elected. TYNWAiLD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T317
PRINTING COMMITTEE OF that the work, responsibilities and TYNWALD — CONSTITUTION duties of the Printing Committee have VARIED ON AMENDMENT TO become more widespread and in the THREE TYNWALD MEMBERS opinion of the Committee in view of The Governor: Item No. 18 the the expansion and the spending now Chairman of the Printing Committee. under the control of the Committee and in view of the political nature of some Mr. Devereau : Your Excellency, I beg of the decisions that have to be taken to move :— the composition of the Committee WHEREAS it is desirable in view of should be altered as suggested by the the increased range and importance of resolution. The Clerk of Tynwald and work undertaken by the Committee the Government Secretary are whole that its present composition, viz. three heartedly in agreement with this. Members of Tynwald elected by Tyn Whereas by this resolution the Gov wald, the Government Secretary and ernment Secretary will be a consultant the Secretary of the House of Keys, be to the Committee and the Clerk of Tyn varied. wald is automatically the Secretary, al RESOLVED :— That the Printing though I would like to say here Mr. Committee consist of five Members of Caley has been acting as Secretary and Tynwald elected by Tynwald with the we have no fault to |find with Mr. Government Secretary acting as con Caley, so that I would suggest that the sultant to the Committee. Clerk of Tynwald or some of his staff are automatically the Secretary of the This resolution standing in my name Committee, the valued services of these is not, I would think, controversial but officials is still available to the Printing I would like to say just a little bit about Committee. We have had help from the reason behind it. Since the Depart H.M. Stationery Office in the recent ments of Government were centralised past and they have viewed our set-up and following the adoption of the Re and had no fault to find. I think this port of the Printing Committee by this resolution is important in that with a hon. House on October 19th, the duties Committee consisting of two officials and responsibilities of the Committee and three members of Tynwald, the have increased. A central purchasing position could arise where perhaps two agency has been established resulting of the Tynwald members of the Com in great saving to Central Government mittee could not attend -the Committee due to bulk buying. All the Depart and you would find the Committee sit ments have co-operated in making this ting with one member of Tynwald and possible and we are very grateful to the two officials. Although the work of various heads of the different sections these officials is tremendously valued for their help and support in this mat I do not think it is fair that we should ter. The Reprographic Department is in impose on them the responsibility of the course of being better equipped and making decisions of a political nature is now being used to much better pur and therefore I move that this resolu pose. Surplus departmental repro tion should be adopted by the Court graphic equipment, being no longer re simply because of those facts. I beg to quired, is being returned to the hiring move. firms and already two Rank Xerox machines have been returned showing Mr. Nivison: I would like to second a saving in this alone of £2,000 a year. that, Your Excellency, and take the op A new Central Library and Book Store portunity of congratulating the Print is of considerable advantage and is be ing Committee on getting the Hansard ing largely used by members and staff. out so much quicker. There was a The debates of Tynwald are being pro period when it was exactly a month duced in much shorter time than they after the Sitting of either the House of once were and then we have to con Keys, or Legislative Council, or Tyn sider contracts for advertising and wald that you eventually got the Han printing. I mention these facts to show sard. We had on our desks yesterday
Printing Committee of Tynwald — Constitution Varied on Amendment to Three Tynwald' Members. T318 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975
the Hansard of the House of Keys for time to put two more people on this 25ith November which is quite good Committee when hon. members of this work and how they are able to do it so Court should be considering the im much quicker is their affair, but I portant policies affecting the life of the would like to congratulate them. I am Isle of Man instead of fiddling about a former member of the Printing Com with the printing requirements. If three mittee and know the many difficulties members of this Court cannot do it there are and I would say that their with two officials, I suggest we get Mr. recommendation to increase the num Curwen Clague uip from the Tourist ber of Tynwald members from three to Board who is dealing with all the five is a good one and I would second printing requirements of millions of that, not that I would hope that any pieces of literature. member would suggest that I might Mr. Anderson : Your Excellency, I do subsequently be a member of that not think that it is a matter of them Committee because I have already got not being able or incompetent but the my plate full. very useful Civil Servants who are on Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, the this Committee felt that now there was hon. member in charge of this motion a very increased expenditure by the may not consider it controversial, I do. Committee, it was not their respon I see here we have a Committee deal sibility to make decisions of this sort, ing with all the printing requirements and that is how this comes before the of Government of three members of Court here today. I think that it is a Tynwald, and two officials and it is right and proper thing for them to now suggested that these people are not voice that and they are prepared to capable of handling this job. I am sure give advice in any way. It can happen. they are doing a good job now, but let It so happens recently that one member us. consider, we have the whole of the was abroad on Government business, I finances of the Isle of Man in the hands was indisposed and the Chairman was of three members of Tynwald; we have there by himself and of course this can the harbours run by three members of happen and it can raise difficulties. I Tynwald; we have the Airport run by dare say, if it is the wish of Tynwald two members and now we are suggest for three members to carry out that' ing wasting the time of two more mem duty, they would certainly do their bers of Tynwald asking them to belong best so to do. to a Printing Committee. I believe that Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I am politicians should be dealing with sorry buit I can mot support this reso policies not fiddling around with print lution, because it is contrary to the ing requirements any more than they major delbaites Hi at we had on 'the can help. I think it is disgraceful to tie Boards Bill, which clearly stated that up five members of Tynwald who ought the members of Tyniwald ait ithat time, to value not just their personal tame, what was five or six years ago, were but their political time more than to over-worked, really over-worked and serve on a Committee such as this. The ■there were more duties coming up as a hon. member says maybe they cannot result of legislation and the idea then, all come, maybe two or the three can which was incorporated in the Boards1 •’ not attend a meeting, what happens on Bill, was to reduce the number of mem the Finance Board, is it all left to the bers on Boards. Much was said at that Chairman? time, Your Excellency, about even re Members: Yes, always. (Laughter). ducing the Board’s because of the work Mr. Irving: What happens on the load to one man, reducing the Board’s Harbour Board or the Airports Board? membership to one ¡memiber of Tyn wald and creating the position of Mr. MacDonald : It works. ministerial responsibility and Mr. Nivi- Mr. Irving: And it seems, Your Ex son, who has seconded this resolution, cellency, to work very well indeed but I would remind him is one of the big I think it is belittling to hon. members’ gest supporters of this idea, because
Printing Committéë of Tynwald — Constitution Varied on Amendment to Three Tynwald Members. TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T319 he is also one of the members of the (Laughter). I do feel that in a . sense, Legislature with the greatest experi Your Excellency, we as a Court noiw ence. There is a simple solution to: this, are guilty of the very point made of course, that if the existing member earlier in this short debate, we are ship are unable regularly to attend! the spending far too much time on this meetings and are causing the embar relatively trivial' matter yet we can vote rassing position of the officials out £240,000 to Peel Commissioners in the voting the present member, two alter twinkling of- 'an eye. natives present themselves — take the Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, as a voting power away from the officials member of .the Printing 'Committee, I and substitute the existing members can assure the Court that we have no who can, not attend ^either fthiroughi hard feelings whether it is three or five. excessive other ¡parliamentary duties The only reason, that we are bringing or 'an1 apparent display of disinterest. the resolution forward in this way is This is really something for the Selec that there are five members on ■ the tion Committee to have a look at bear Printing ¡Committee at the moment and ing in mind these few thoughts that it is at the request of the Government I have expressed. 'Secretary and the Secretary of the The Speaker : Yoiur Excellency, I rise House of Keys, who is the ot'her to support the principle of this resoltu- nominee, not the Clerk of Tynwald, tiom because I agree with the hon. it is at their request that they want to member who has moved it, that Tyn drop out of the picture as official mem wald control is essential andI a desir bers of this Committee. They .find it able thing to have. I would also, as a just as difficult as the three Tyniwald former member of the Committee, say members to attend. It is the same for ■this, that the Printing’ Committee, as every other Board to get a full atten I know it, is a dedicated Committee who dance at any Committee and I think have discharged their responsibilities that the Court, if ¡they decided1 on three, effectively 'and in the interests of this then three it Will be and there is no Count. I think there has been a remark need to get excited about it. On th^ able period of development associated question of the Government Secretary with this (Committee in the last year acting as a consultant for the Conij- in particular and I would compliment mittee, people might wonder what them on it. Nevertheless I do agree with special expertise he has to act as con the sentiment expressed by hon. mem sultant. It is not in the way of ¡an bers that a Committee of five, in this expert that he wants to foe consulted, case is not essential. For the iword it is in the fact that so much Govern “five”, Your Excellency, Jj move an ment printing is his responsibility and amendment that there be substituted in that way he would be considered, “three” because I think the duties of the as a consultant, the same as oth er. Committee could be, with a consultant people could be called in for consulta in the form of the Government Secre tion. tary, discharged by thre persons quite The Governor: Do you wish to say ably andl tnere need be no further anything ? membership of that Committee. I beg to move. Mr. Devereau;. I think that the Com mittee, along with myself, ¡agree that Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I beg if this Count wishes it to be three we to second the 'amendment proposed iby would agree. (Interruptions and laugh Mr. Speaker. I think the only problem ter). The only thing will be that the basically ¡at the moment is that of members of the Committee will have; course we have twio humble self-effacing to see that they are able to attend. We Government servants who ¡are well- have people on this Committee Who knorwn to us all in that capacity and have very many other commitments who do find it somewhat embarrassing and it is sometimes quite impossible to have to over-nule politicians. They for them to attend. In future we will are "so inexperienced in that art. have to arrange our meetings at a
Printing Committee of Tynwald — Constitution Varied on Amendment to Three Tynwald1 Members. T320 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975
■time they can attend and that is what Of course officially we have the Tour it boils down to. I Would thank anyone ist Industry’s Development Commission who has taken part in- the debate. I who said, “provision of duty-free facil do not propose to answer them] indivi ities in the Isle of Man iwould be a dually and I thank them ¡for taking powerful attraction to tourists.” Recent part. ly we have had the Season Extension The Governor: I wiiM first put the Committee of the Tourist Board who amendment proposed1 toy Mr. Speaker. have put forward' this same view. I Those in favour please say aye. would like to make it very clear, sir, Against, no. The ayes have it. Noiw that I am not aiware of the views of the the resolution, as amended, is that individual members of the Tourist Board on the desirability or otherwise agreed ? of coming out of the Common Purse. It was agreed. We are, and I ¡am well .aware, united in one thing and we are united in DECLARATORY (RESOLUTION — Wanting to see an independent profes RE INDEPENDENT EXAMINATION sional investigation of the situation in OF COMMON PURSE order to hear of the advantages and ARRANGEMENTS — APPROVED the disadvantages. I do not intend this The Governor: Item number 19, I afternoon to put forward any argu call upon the ¡Chairman of the Isle of ments at all for [coming out of the Man Tourist Board. Common Purse, nor do I intend to say Mr1. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg anything on why we should stay in to move :— the Common Purse. I hope that we axe That Tynwald is of the opinion that not going to have a long debate on the provisions of the Coimmon Purse what people think would1 be the adi- Arrangement and of the Agreement vamtages or what people think' would1 dated the 30th October 1957 between be the disadvantages and I hope the Governments of the United King we can confine the debate to the desir dom and the Isle of Man regarding ability or otherwise of continuing with Customs and other matters should be this arrangement. To some people when the subject of an independent profes there is any mention of the Cbmmon sional examination and report thereon Purse, or coming out of the Common in order that Tynwald may be made Purse, they immediately think in terms aware of the short and long term of cheap drinks and tobacco. There is advantages and disadvantages to the ■a great deal more involved than cheap economy of the Island of that Arrange drinks and1 tobacco. Over a third of ment and Agreement. our receipts from the Cbmmon Purse I think I iwill take the adKdce of the are in the form of Value Added Tax, hon. member of the Council1, Mr. £4,120,000 this year Value Added Tax. Kneale, and not get excited about this Is it a good thing, this is what is; put and try and take it. to us, is it a good thing that this Gov ernment should have the power at any Mr. Bell: You are popular today. time to vary the rates of V.A.T., either (Laughter). the rates on goods or the rates on Mr. Irving; If it were the John Bell services ? It is suggested1, I have heard Show I am sure we would have a it, by many people that we should be good houtee (¡Laughter). There is a able to do that perhaps for the benefit widespread opinion throughout the of certain industries. I know that there Island that tourism would prosper have been suggestions that it would greatly if iwe were able to offer our be a good thing if we could abolish visitors duty reduced goods as they do V.A.T. on tourist accommodation per in the 'Channel Islands. The Tourist haps in the shoulder months. This has Board is continually being approached been suggested. I know too, in terms by people, not just in the tourist in of manufacturing in the Island, the dustry, but people who take an interest hon. member for Peel and the hon. in the tourist industry, on this matter. member for Glenfaba, Mr. Anderson
i t : .. n e i------l - r i — nagaggs ■ ■ age — ■-j.m»»- «asara Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved. TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T321
'have, on several occasions, shown, in out knowing the disadvantages. I be terest in shipbuilding in Peel and have lieve that the people of this Island said ¡that shipbuilding in Peel, on its are entitled to know the facts, and limited scale nowadays, is greatly no-one, I do not think any member affected by the 25% rate of Value of this 'Court knows the facts. I believe Added Tax. I believe they have natur the hlon. member, the lOhaiiman of ally thought is it ¡possible for us to Finance Board knows a great deal reduce the Value Added Tax, if you about it, and I believe this afternoon like for example on shipbuilding in the he is going to explain the Common Isle of Man. I am mentioning this be Purse Arrangement. That is fine. I do cause I do not want hon. members to do not know ithat the hon. member has think that all that is involved is cheap 'all the evidence on which to make a drinks and cheap tobacco. Quite apart judgment. The evidence can be ob from the interest local people have tained. (Some person or persons can shown in the question of the Common sit down and find out about the enor Purse in relation to tourism, and in mous number of things involved. It deed, apart from their interest in rela may well affect the Continental Shelf tion to the fostering of industry on Agreement, it may affect agricultural the Island, there is a large body of levies in relation to Community Com people who believe that the Manx Gov mon Customs Tariff receipts1 in rela ernment should have a greater control tion to the Community, all sorts of over its receipts from indirect taxation. things, local industry, and so on. When They believe that 'the powers and the I raised this before, the chief oppos freedom of the Manx Government are ition, the main opposition came from restricted by the existence of this the Finance Board. They said they Common Purse Agreement. Œ am not were totally opposed to it; they said saying that it is, I am not talking sides they were involved in delicate negoti one way or the other this afternoon; ations with Whitehall. I understand I am trying to indicate that there are this. At that tim e they were, but the a large number of people now who for Chairman of the Finance Board con a variety of reasons believe rightly or tinued to say, perhaps in three, four wrongly, that Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved, T322 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 in favour of going in and staying as judgment or any Report, is available to we -are ' with the Common Purse them. This is one of the reasons why Arrangement, or opting out of the we have, on Finance Board, been Common Purse Arrangement? I have reluctant up to the present time to never been one who would say make any suggestion or decision on that we should do away with this matter because the evidence has the Common Purse Arrangement just not been available. In fact, even today for the sake of getting the cheap it may well-be that sufficient evidence drink and the cheap tobacco. I have is not yet available. It is essential in never been able really to satisfy deciding when you have got indirect myself that the Common Purse taxation, that you know the sources of Arrangement was really fully benefi the tax; that you know which parts of cial to the Island. I want to know the the economy it is coming from; that facts, and for this reas'on I am you know how benefit can be bestowed supporting this. I am also supporting or damage done by changing the the resolution because it says “ an taxation picture. All these things can independent professional examination only be done in the light of the evi and report thereon.” If we turn to the dence that is available. I have felt, and Report of the Finance Board on the I have said in this Court before, that Customs and Common Purse Arrange the matter is so important to the Isle ment which was dated 18th October of Man that it is not a matter with 1966, the hon. member for Rushen at which we can tinker. We can certainly that time, Mr. Simeooks, who is now a have a professional examination of the member of the Legislative (Council, matter, and we can stretch every nerve submitted a Minority Report. Para- to provide the evidence. The hon. ■graph 8. of his Minority Report starts Chairman of the Tourist Board has" with “The obvious opposition of ail the already pointed out that I did say some members of the delegation, other than time ago that the evidence would myself, to any modification of the accumulate, and there is no doubt that Common Purse Agreement undoubtedly as the years go by, the impact of Value led to the exaggeration of difficulties Added Tax, the method <5>i collecting it, when matters were discussed with Her and the method of paying, it over to us Majesty’s Customs and Excise.”. For is providing us with a v^st amount of this reason I think that this Court evidence as to where the tax comes requires an independent look, not a from which we could never find from look at this matter 'by members sitting. the ordinary duties or from the Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I want imposition of Purchase Tax. This to make it quite clear at the outset that evidence will be available to us. On the I am not in any way opposing the other hand, we must bear in mind that resolution which appears on the we do receive very considerable Agenda. It is, as you will note, a amounts of money every year through declaratory resolution in that Tynwald the Common Purse Arrangement, and is of the opinion that, and it does .not we dare not gamble with such enor lay down any method of examination, mous amounts of money. We must be or who shall do this examination, quite sure of our ground before we. try except that it would be desirable to to reach decisions. I agree that today have it done by professional people who we are not suggesting decisions, we are are well qualified and capable of doing merely suggesting an inquiry, and with it. From that point of view I would be that proposal I would agree. I do want' prepared to support the resolution, to point out, too, that the hon. Chair 'because I think that it is essential that man referred to people who want to from time to time we should have an vary the Agreement or to alter the inquiry into these matters. We want to rates. We can do this provided that we be sure, of course, that the evidence reach agreement with the United which the , professional people will ■Kingdom on the variations. Thisi is only require before they can make any reasonable because their officers are Declaratory Resolution — Re independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved, TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T323 collecting the duty; the conditions further legislation in Westminster under; which they work, and the duty which : alloWed the Isle of Man to levy they collect must be the same in any its own taxes. By 1894 difficulties were ■common area., unless we can reach being encountered by reason of the fact 'agreement òn the variations that can that they were levying certain taxes in •be made. We 'must bear that in mind, the ' United Kingdom and different but When swe. come to talk about taxes in the Isle of Man.— some goods shoulder months — May and June, or were being taxed in Liverpool and perhaps September, October ■—• we are taxed again when they got into the Isle running into' some difficulty, I have no of Man; there were many, many diffi doubt; to’ be varying the rates as the culties at that time, and there were year goes, by. However, that is a difficulties in the collection of the question on which we could get profes duties due to the Isle of Man. At rthe sional -advice, _ and the advice of Her request of the Isle of Man this Common Majesty’s Customs and Excise. I do Purse Arrangement was reached, the want, to emphasise that the effect on arrangement whereby, provided that the ■ t ¿venues of the Island, ris of prime we. kept our duties in line with the importance. We have put our shoulder United Kingdom, which was naturally to the Wheel in a great many schemes an essential to the scheme, the British of Welfare, social services and so on, Customs Officers would collect the which musi be financed, and' we dare duties in the common area. They had not prejudice in any way the income a job to do which not only included that is necesrary to meet those require the United Kingdom, but the Isle of : ments. For -this, reason we have got to Man as well, and the division of the be extremely careful and .realise that spoils would be made on the basis of if we talk about reduced duties on this, the population of the United Kingdom that’ and the other, at some point the and the population ot the Isle of Man. loss has'got to be made up somewhere. The consumption per head of _ the Wg cannot just say we are doing away population also had its effect. lit was with it and 'forget it, because we shall also realised that a great deal .-.of need the money that is at present dutiable goods were purchased .by produced by those duties. As I have visitors, and that a great many dutiable said, -the evidence is accumulating. The goods were used by residents of the Chairman of the Tourist Board sugges Isle of Man in the service of the ted that I was going to explain the visitors. In consequence of that, a nature of the Common Purse, and I special arrangement was made whereby want to say something about , the account was taken of the number of Common Purse Arrangement; not so visitors who came into the Isle of Man much for the benefit of hon. members in the summertime. The number of of ", the .Court but for the benefit, if visitors was recorded every year and possible,: if ; Declaratory .Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved, T324 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 This gradually gathered speed and by collected in the common area. The 1946 when Mr. Speaker and I came main point is this, that we are under into the Legislature, this ball was obligation under the 'agreement of rolling and a great deal ocf progress 1957, to maintain the same level of was being made in constitutional duties as they do in the United King reform By 1957 we had got to a point dom unless, after consultation with where the Government in the United them, we vary it. This is the Common Kingdom was prepared to pass what Purse Arrangement. It is not being they were calling “The Isle of Man imposed on us and it does not, in fact, Act”, which would confer on the Isle really suggest any control from White of Man a great deal more indepen hall that has not been originally asked dence. I do not think that everybody is for by the authorities in the Isle of aware that up to that time, every vote Man. I wanted to make this abundantly by Tynwald of money had to be clear, because I hope that it can be submitted to the United Kingdom well reported so that those people in Treasury for approval; that was the the Isle of Man who have doubts about position we were in 18 years ago. They this, and imagine that it is the dead were prepared to relinquish that hand of Whitehall controlling us, can control entirely, but they insisted that be made to understand what is the the Common Purse Arrangement be true position. I hope that I have made completely renegotiated first, and a the position reasonably clear, and I new agreement, basically the old say that I am ready to support the agreement re-stated, was signed in resolution. 1957. That is the agreement under which we work at the moment. Provi Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, the sion is there for consultation, for Court is indebted for the explanation variation otf duties and for the collec given by the hon. member’who has just tion of all the duties by the United resumed his seat, so th>at this can go Kingdom officers, and for the sharing out to people who do not understand by the United Kingdom Treasury of the what our system is. 1 think that it is a proceeds on a certain basis. It may be good thing from time to time for the that you will remember that from Finance Board to keep hon. members time to time we have mentioned informed, to the best of their ability, changes that have been made in their as to how things are proceeding and methods. The Treasurer has been, on a how our income is derived. I believe number of occasions, in London that it is an unenviable position in. negotiating for changes in the method1 which the hon. member for Rushen otf arriving at our population, changes finds himself, where he is not in the in the method of counting the people position, as many other members are, who comc into the Island, and the to understand completely the position. people who leave the Island. For a long I am of the opinion that these are facts time only births and deaths were and figures that could be supplied to recorded, so that you could go for a hon. members and prospective candi five-year period with a gradually dates by the Treasury. I believe that increasing, population, to a very consid if they were informed of what is going erable extent, and no account was on and haw our income is derived, it being taken over those years of the would prevent them from getting up fact that it had increased, until you and making very wild statements and reached a census year. These things promises which would be completely have been ironed out and we are impossible to fulfill. The hon. member constantly looking at the method of who has brought the resolution here — obtaining a better and better share of I think we owe him a debt as well, in the proceeds of the tax. We are satisfied that we have an opportunity to air this at the moment that we are getting what subject, and I do not want to get we think is a very fair share, our due involved in the argument either for or share, of all the taxes that are against abolition. The only thing I am Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved. TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T325 a little concerned about—I, only this Chairman of the Finance Board say week, went through a shelf on which that with consultation we can I have a ipile that high of Reports, make slight variations. I think this is some of them very lengthy Reports, interesting. I hope that we can do that almost half of which emanated1 from in the interests of the efforts that are the hon. member’s resolutions in this being made on the Island at this point Court. in time, as the hon. member for East Douglas ¡mentioned. I hope that this Mr. Irving: No, I only had three. is possible. 'I doubt whether an inquiry, Mr. Anderson: Well, almost half of if it is not possible now, could alter the the ones in my pack emanated fromi situation and make it into one by which that source. (Interruption). This is the we could say we will or we will not point that I come to, it is so very easy charge V.A.T. on shipbuilding in the to do this, and let us 'be honest about Isle of Man. If it is not existing now, I it, these things are not done cheaply; cannot see how a Report would alter it costs a lot of money to do these that. I think we have either got to opt exercises just to go on the shelf to be to come right out or opt to stay in. That dusted and kept just for the record! is my opinion. The only thing, I think, that somebody at some point in time we are considering this afternoon is as had looked into them. It may be, you to whether it is worthwhile to have an know, useful to have it in a year in independent, high-powered inquiry or which there is an Election to get something in the way of information information. I am firmly of the opinion from Finance, from which the informa that if our Treasury went to work on tion will have to come in the long run. this they could hand out statements to I would support that type oif inquiry. hon. members so that they could get up The Speaker: Your Excellency, I rise and speak with informed1 minds as to to support the resolution, and I would what the position in the Island would like to indicate that perhaps this stems be. I am not absolutely convinced that from the Season Extension Committee, this exercise in getting somebody of Which I am Chairman, and which completely independently to lo'ok into has been acknowledged by the hon. it will achieve a great deal. The Chairman. reason I say that is that the source of the information that they are going to Members: So that is where this has tap will be 99 per cent in the Treasury. come from. It has got to be; nobody else has got The Speaker: Let us be quite that sort of information; there is no straight about this. On the 28th other person to whom they can go. It August the Season Extension Commit may be said they can adVise us on1 what tee, which consists of representatives we should do. 'Whatever advice is given of the tourist trade, of commerce in on whalt we shall do has still got to Douglas, as well as myself as Chair come back to this hon. Court who will man, did put forward several proposals have to face a very great decision as to to the Tourist Board; one was a reduc whether or not they are going to launch tion in fares in the early part of the out on a system which may or may not season, another Was a reduction in the produce half, almost, of the total air fares to Ron'aldsway—a subject of income of this Island. I am just won controversy in the last day or two in dering, is this exercise, from that point the papers—and where it says, “that of view, going to toe worthwhile? I can after discussions with the Airports see merit in information being derived Board and the Finance Board, it does for members to bring forward in an not seem likely that the Finance Board Election year. This could be very use would be prepared to make the ful, because it is so easy to get up and financial resources which would be talk a lot about things we just do not necessary, available to the Tourist understand. The one thing about which' Board to vary the necessary air fares I was very pleased was to hear the hon. by any worthwhile sum in the early Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements -— Approved. T326 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10,-1975 and late season.”. I assume Commander collected in England the result would ELwes has been informed of that. Pro be the same. . , posal four was that the Common Purse Mr. MacDonald: It is pointless Agreement 'be abrogated to permit the doing it. sale of commodities at duty-free or duty-reduced prices. In this context the The Speaker: You say it is pointless Board has seen the Finance Board', and doing it. We do pay someone ¿Í16,000, ; it is understood the impending Report I think, for the pleasure of collection, otf P.A. Management Consultants on the for instance, which possibly is some economic situation of the Isle of Man thing that might stay on the Island. may throw some light on this topic. The It is rather a serious topic as far as I Board is prepared to bring this to the am concerned; it is not a'matter to be Court by the Chairman for discussion. dismissed lightly with thoughts, of He has now done so, and I am sure that fiddling away. (Interruptions). -5 do everyone in trade in Douglas and in not think this Government does fiddle resorts in the Island is indebted to him anything away. The point Here . is for bringing this issue ‘before the whether the hon. member for Peel has Court. Let us face it, although we are any illusions in that respect, I do not told today that the Common Purse is . know, but his interruptions I do not capable of variation, in point of fact, appreciate, and I would rather make hgn. members, what we are talking my point, which is this, that the about is about 6p, maybe, on petrol Common Purse is a very serious issue at the most, and if you talk of any to us all. It is a link with United other variation it is. a non-starter. I Kingdom Government which ties us, to know ior-j,instance the hon. member for a certain extent, in our ability—and I Sou'th Douglas has been trying for ages say this irrespective of whatever Gov to get so-called “duty-free” into opera ernment is in power—it ties us in our tion in the Isle of Man to assist ability to manoeuvre. It may álso be tourism. He has been quite unable to tying us at a time when. the United achieve that objective; it cuts across Kingdom is going closer .and closer to the Common Purse. Europe, and it is rpossible that in that Mr. Bolton: No, that is not the event, the ability to . '.change; ‘our reason. position and, the. advisability of chang ing our position should be. established. The Speaker: If that is not the This is where I can see‘ merittijn this reason it would be rather nice to'know . Report. We will get to , know . the wh&t the reason-is, because whatever answers, on which we 'can" base . a -it is' lit cannot be attained, and decision.. I know, and I go .with those certainly the tourist trade of this. people who seek a .change here, Island wish to have it to bolster their ■because I am confident that' -the Report trade and extend it. There is, I believe, will prove positive in this respect. 'I am this need in the Island to -be capable quite sure,, along with- other" hon. of variation in relation to the applica members, that I would be fortified in tion o f your taxes. I go along with the that view if a Report to that end"is Chairman of Finance Board in that one forthcoming from people who -are niust always be capable of raising the unbiased in this respect,, and who will necessary sums to keep your ship do a detailed examination.... ! “ would afloat. As a matter of fact, ¿the situa have thought that the position, of .the tion, as you are well aware, is that Island in relation to the Common Purse from the!' Common Purse we draw has been made easier by the imposition nothing to which we are not entitled. of that.-I would have ..thought,here, the Mr. MalcDohald: We have still got to actual ability' to relinquish the,.'Com get the money from somewhere. mon Purse ties becomes easier than The Speaker : We draw on the basis it. -was. ’ hitherto. I welcome this of what is due to us, and whether it resolution; I think it is a very practical Was collected in the Isle of Man or resolution, and J. am. delighted it has Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination/ofjCornmpn Purse Arrangements — Approved. TYNWALD COURT.. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T327 been welcomed also by the Finance position of making an assessment. I do Board. I would pay tribute to the hon. not think the V.A.T. position ever did member, the Chairman of the Finance settle down. Later on then, Mrs. Quayle Board, here. No-one fought harder with from Castletown put another question the Ston’ham Working Party than he on behalf of one of her kith or kin, as did to establish the fact that we get she described it, I think it was on be nothing for nothing from the British half of Mr. Quayle of the Council, she Government; that we stand on our own put the question. She was given an feet and pay for everything we get; and swers which were neither constructive we get- nothing to which we are not nor amusing but misleading. She is no entitled. Today it is merely in pursu further in her quest for information ance of establishing the situation that on duty reduced goods. A further ques I support the hon. member, because I tion was put down in March., so recent "think we all need to know the answers. as March 26th of this year, where the Finance Board undertook to prepare a - Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I have scheme, where they themselves would no alternative but to support it. I am do an inquiry into this question of very suspicious about the statement duty reduced, or duty free, in a limited from the Chairman of Finance Board form for the Island, and the result of saying that it may not be as exped that — unfortunately this is an unfor itious.-because all the facts may not tunate experience — the result of that be available for the "team of Consul is. that it has been referred to the tants. This seems to me to be a pre Tourist Board who have concurred prepared excuse for delay. I hope I do with the findings of the actuaries em not judge you wrongly, but one can ployed, or the statisticians employed only go by the record, and on this mat by the Finance Department, and they ter, which is almost sacrilege to attempt have killed the idea stone dead. I think, to touch it, one cannot help feeling just out o f the top of my head, I think some concern and uncertainty to have the statisticians used a method that in it supported by the Chairman of Fin order to give duty reduced goods at the ance Board. (Laughter). I would hon airport or the sea terminal, we would estly hope that the team that is set up have to guarantee an additional 118,000 to go into this matter can, in fact, be or 120,000 extra visitors a year. Even advised, if it is possible, to take it in, more than that. maybe, two or three sections so that we can get an early Report on a matter Mr. Bolton: Either your statements which is of utmost and urgent import are wrong or your figures^ are. wrong. ance to the public of the Island and to Mr. Crellin: We dealt with it -hon Tynwald Court, and that is this ques estly. (Interruption). tion, in isolation, of duty reduced goods Mr. Bell: This is ithe peril that at the air terminal or at the sea term confronts- us, even ' this resolution inal. I just happen to have the volume and its contents may be dealt with here, I did not bring it with me, it has “honestly.” The hope of Tynwald in the been lying here for weeks. I, like the support of this resolution is that -we hon. member for Glenfaba, I have no will find a better Isle of Man as a re place at home for them, so I hope that sult of it. M y hone was that before we if I leave them here they will go away, get the equalisation -or harmonisation but this one has not. There are three of dues in the E.E.C. for 1978, we could references to this subject here. One is have had at least one or two seasons, a question of mine in 1974 referring to even if it had-cost;. ;us, it would have a statement of 1972 of the hon. Chair been worth it. It . would have-been a man in which he says — this is on the low cost exploration, a fact finding one, introduction of V.A.T. when I raised which would have been useful even as this question — he said that after we evidence for this Commission that is had had four or five years of working, going to be set up. It is with real regret when the system had had an opportun that I find that the record shows that ity of settling down, we would be in a there was not sufficient confidence in Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved. T328 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 the tourist industry, or in the Tourist I, too, feel that it will not get us very Board, or in the airlines, or the other far. All the Reports we ever get are peoples concerned in it, to give it a eventually killed or chopped about, or whirl, for these promotions as compet changed to suoh an extent. (Interrup itive attractions with our competitors. tions) . We have discussed transport to It died a death, it was sure to die a day in this Court. The Commission’s death from the start. If you can em Report came out, what, nearly ten ploy sufficient experts to give it an years ago and there have been umpteen honest funeral, it all seems so respect Committees sitting ever since, and we able and not even to be challenged at were suggesting this morning, for a a later date. I am sorry, but from what body right outside of Tynwald, that we I hear in the debates so far, the mem should wait and take notice of that Re bers may think that something good port. This is what goes on. Money is is going to come out of this inquiry. I spent. Perhaps the Ramsey Commis have very little faith that anything will sioners are paying nothing for their occur without the full-blooded support one, but Tynwald Commissions cost of the members in a declaratory resol money. I saw a notice this year when ution setting a policy for the Finance I went on holiday to Yugoslavia and I Board to follow. I am not taking any saw a little proverb up, it was an thing away from the glory that the Italian proverb, and it said : “Public Finance Board have heaped upon them money is like holy water, everyone tries selves. Much of it is gold and it is too to help himself to it.” This is at the heavy for me even to budge, but they duty free shop at Dubrovnik Airport, it do look well with all this glory round was not in English, but it was in Italian, them, and I paid tributes to them be German and French, and there it was fore. Sometimes I suspect that they right in front of you. What was hap take too much responsibility for the pening? I have watched this every Government’s administration, and they year on duty free. You go through Lon shelter the Boards of Tynwald too don Airport and what are the English much by restricting them in what is doing? They are all buying their bottles proper statutory expenditure in the of whiskey in London Airport, carry execution of their internal policies. The ing them out to their holiday places, members of the M.E.R. Board may say, and they are all carrying them back I wash I would have thought of that again. They are doing this in Jersey three or four years ago, but the M.E.R. and Guernsey, they are doing this all never came to fight for their money from Jersey and Guernsey, they are where the Board of Education did come buying their bottles at London Airport and fight for their money; they were and at Manchester where there is ■ a refused but they came and they fought huge shop that does nothing else, a and they got the support of Tynwald. I roaring trade, they are selling cheap think the Tourist Board — and I hope booze to carry out and take it back this is not thought critical or sour grapes again. This is the system that is evolv because II am not there — I would have ing, this is the system that is evolv much sooner had a declaratory resol ing. So the whole of this Customs and ution from the Tourist Board instruct Excise duty free is becoming such a ing the Finance Board to so prepare a nonsense that Europe, in fact, has de scheme for these two years, 1976, 1977, cided to scrap it. I do not know what before harmonisation. The Report that the date is. we are going to get out of this resol Mr. Irving: In the Community, yes. ution will be three years coming, and the evidence of the working would, in Mr. MacDonald : In the whole Com munity area, the whole of duty free is fact, be helpful to that inquiry. I have being scrapped as utter rubbish be little hope for this, but I am bound to cause all the Europeans are doing is support it. carrying their own booze about in Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, bottles all over Europe backwards and like the last member I will support this. forwards, because it is cheaper to buy Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T329 it at home duty free, than to have mittees from outside. I think like Mr. somebody else ship it out there and Bell, the hon. member for Douglas buy it out there. This is what happens South, that a lot of our information with duty free arrangements. People does lie, as Mr. Speaker actually said, are greedy and people will take it just and it is the truth within ourselves. for the sake of twopence, I do. It has We have got this information, masses become a habit with everybody. For of it, and Finance Board must be chock the sake of twopence you will cart it all a block with it. However, what I think the way out and back. Whilst I can see is possibly needed, and 'I know they a certain point in this motion today, are working on it, all this stuff is now there is the problem, and I have found being fed into the costly computer we ihis only recently, wheire we had a have got, probably all the facts and young gentleman appear down at the figures are being collected together. Harbour Board. This is a man, I believe, However, I do not think rushing any who was engaged by the Finance Board body in with only half the information he is doing another investigation into available is going to produce anything. the financial affairs of the Island I I would like to be assured today that think. I cannot remember his name but the facts necessary to carry out an ob anyway he came down to get facts jective and conclusive report on the from the Harbour Board to put in his Common Purse Arrangement are avail report for submission to Tynwald. I able within the Island from Her could have given anybody in the Fin Majesty’s Customs and Excise. How ance Board these facts, they probably ever, I would like to make quite cer already had them and I did not need tain that in fact before we pay some a man from London to come over here body five, six or ten thousand to come and collect them from me. We said to over here and look into this that all the him that the facts are all going to be necessary information is available to made available and we produced a big be collected, to be looked at, to produce pack of statistics my Board had been a report which is worthwhile otherwise carefully keeping because we found we once again we are just wasting public had none we could work on and very money. accurately probably over the last five or six years we had kept very detailed Mr. Kneale : Your Excellency, I fully statistics. “We have them all available support the retention of the Common for you,” we told this chap, “plus reports Purse Arrangement until we can see that we had had done by the N.P.C. something positively better as an alter with Tynwald approval, these are all native. Personally, having looked at the available.” We never saw him again. situation I cannot see anything on the The facts were all there in files like horizon. On the other hand, I am pre this and the next thing I got was a pared to support this resolution today. ’phone call to say that he had pro It is time that we had the facts before duced his report. I said, “But you have us so that we can make a de not seen all the documents we have cision one way or the other instead of produced.” “Oh when I am over I will just forming opinions. However, it has have a look at them,” he said. I said, been suggested round the Court that “But all the details are in there. Where this document when it is produced will did your get yours from?” He got them be a useful document for the next from nowhere. This report will be com General Election. If this is ready by the ing forward shortly with a whole lot next General Election, or ,the one after, of information on harbours and har I will be surprised because you are bour operation and the gentleman has talking about the figures you require to not even looked at the statistics that produce an accurate report. It is not were available for him. These are ex only figures from the Finance Board perts that were investigating it once you want or from the Departments of again and so I will treat their report the Isle of Man Government, you need with what I think it deserves. This is them from the Departments of Jersey the danger of setting up expert com and Guernsey if you are going to make Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved. T330 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 a true assessment of the position they think it is not a bad idea to have whether their system is better than an investigation of this nature. Some ours. I would advise you to take a look one questioned as to the cost of this at some of the Jersey papers and some investigation iand mentioned that it of the recent financial reports from ■might cost five or ten thousand pound's. Jersey and see where they are going. In my point of view, it will cost nearer It has already been stated by the hon. £25,000. However, at the same time it member for Peel about the duty free may still be well worth doing, provid concessions in the European countries. ing members of this Court take cogniz Just have a look what is happening to ance of the findings of this enquiry. duty reduced goods in Jersey and This debate has taken a sort of division Guernsey at the moment. You will this afternoon. We have been discussing notice that they are looking round for the sale of duty reduced goods at a alternative ways to raise money. They duty reduced shop and the Common cannot see many except starting to put Purse Arrangement. They are two en more duty on these very things that we tirely things. We can arrange for duty are talking about reducing altogether. I reduced goods to be sold at the Airport am quite certain that when they have and indeed by the Steam Packet Com got all the information available, all pany if that was so desired. However, the relative information from not only the cost to Government would be pro the Isle of Man but from the Channel digious because we would not get any Islands' and we have had a true assess benefit on those sales from the Common ment of the position we will say “Thank Purse Arrangement and the cost would God we have got the Common Purse.” be prohibitive. The hon. member for Mr. Ranson: Your Excellency, I South Douglas went on to say that he would like to ask the mover of the believed in the opinion of experts. resolution, which to me has quite a lot However, when we produce figures of merit, could he give us any idea at from experts showing that to run a all of the ultimate cost, even if it is duty reduced shop at the Airport we only a very rough figure, of this en would! need 180,000 extra passengers, quiry that is going to be held by these he does not take any notice, this is just experts? I am sorry the Chairman of nonsense, the whole question of abro the Finance Board has left us because gating the Common Purse is one where I was very interested in his explan I doubt if there is a constitutional ation on the basis and how we ar point in it that has got to be investi rived at the Common Purse Agreement. gated. I think that to abrogate without I found it very interesting and very in a great deal of th'ought, and that is why structive. He quite rightly said that I think that this Committee or this there are very, very few people in the investigation., might be worth while Island who understand or know any and might be the greatest mistake we thing concerning the basis on whioh ever made. I am no gambler and I do that arrangement is made, I am just not think that we should gamble with wondering if one of his colleagues in the livelihood of the people of the Isle his absence could have a word with of Man and that is wihat iwe would be him to see if that statement of explan doing if Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T331 — — - ■ —— — — «r m j. 3 B 3 if-am u t a a B t — P M intend to choose their consultants or that the hon. mover has performed experts because I believe that is most a very useful service in bringing important and whether they will put together the two, as it were, oppos iit out to tender so that we will know ing factions on this topic. I would What we 'are likely to get for our emphasise the word “independent” money. which he has .wisely included in fram Miss Cowin: As before, I would ing this resolution and I too join with' doubt the wisdom of the time for break the hon. member for ¡Castletown in the ing away from the Common Purse point she raised regarding how exactly Arrangement. Wlhen it does come it the team is to be chosen, because great will be on the grounds of poOitioal care must be exercised ,in trying to motivation I am quite sure. However, ensure that as far as is humanly pos as regards tourists, we are told sible it is a very fair and above board ■that the terms we have from Customs exercise. It is a well known political and Excise are calculated on largely, ploy, not so mtuch perhaps in this apart from our own population, are Island tout in the 'adjacent island, that calculated largely on what I am told when you are setting up a Commission is the fiscal equivalent of visitors. you load the Commission with people We pay great subsidies of one sort or who set off ratiher more in tune with another to produce the number of vis the Government’s present general idfea itors and to some extent I have 'always on the subject, rather than having them been conscious that the numbers of evenly balanced. Their calculations visitors brought return in hard cash sometimes go awry, but the Kilbrandon and therefore the subsidies were not Report perhaps is a good relatively quite so difficult to face. If we were noit recent example of What I have been getting Common Purse returns for the referring to. I would say what is the numbers of visitors I would think then alternative to the proposal before us ? After all this topic is second only in that we have to think very hard about the type of visitor rather than the the number of times it has been raised, I would say, to the subject of licensing, number of visitors that come to our shores and I would think that that and the alternative is that this political football will never be kicked into either ■would be something that the Tourist goalpost, it will go on and on in mid Board1 would have to think very hard about. Let me turn now to education. field' and this does do haim to the Island. As a previous speaker mention It will toe known t0 all our members ed, I think it was the hon. Chairman that we are fortunate in the amount of Finance Board, there are misunder of assistance that is given to the Isle of Man in the training of our teachers. standings, people believe that it is a way in which the U.K. maniputates I can not quote the exact amount for the affairs of the Isle of Man. I per each trainee tout it is derisory in its sonally am rather sceptical. I start off amount compared to its value. The like the hon. member of Council, Mr. fishery protection vessels which come Kneale, on this subject, I am not a round to safeguard our fisheries, it person who is going to be easily per would be almost crippling to afford that suaded to abandon the Common Purse, sort of protection of our fishing but I am 100% with this resolution. grounds. I do not want to preach a I want to know if my general idea is sermon on this, but onfce more I would wrong and the plain fact is I, along advise, that dreadful word, delay in with other members, do not (know. I judgment. Think hard before yotu em think we want a clear balance sheet bark on anything however attractive really showing the advantages and the it would appear on the surface. Pie disadvantages in all their stark reality. crusts can toe terribly crumbly. The accusation made by a member Mr. Clucas: I rather think that the earlier regarding the Treasury and the last speaker is possibly confusing question of duty reduced goods, I think Comm'on Services with Common Purse, is totally invalid. I too can not remem but I am not expert on it. I do think ber the exact figures, but I think it Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved. T332 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 only fair to„say my recollection of the Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency, with situation is’ that the Treasury dealt regard to this Common Purse I have with the case very honestly and came no doubt whatsoever, as people have up with the truth. In some quarters said they do not know anything about I .am afraid the truth hurts. The plain this, I am sure and certain everybody fact is that the premises on ¡which they in this hon. Court today knows exactly ibase their arguments I think were that what the Common Purse is, everybody every person departing from the Island knows or if they do not they should with a ticket shall, at either the Air not be in this Court. It is an arrange port or the Sea Terminal, be able to ment the Isle of Man has with Great purchase one bottle of spirits at I Britain for gathering .all the taxes, think it was used for the purpose of purchase tax and various other taxes, the exercise, £1 off the normal price, indirect taxation etc. and for a sum of that £1 being reimbursed to HJM. something like £175,000, which we pay Customs and Excise by the Exchequer to them, they collect the taxes for us. of the Isle of Man. This facility would Nobody has said that if you do away appeal to a fairly high number of the with the Common Purse the first -thing passengers. On this calculation it w>as that Great Britain has to do is to set found that in order to re-coup the cost up a customs barrier. (Interruptions). of this concession through the Common You can envisage -all these 2,000 pass Purse we would require something of the engers on a steamer from Douglas order of an increase in the number of going to Liverpool and; all being exam visitors to our shores between May and ined and their baggage -turned out and September of 20%. It was something everything else and that is just about of that order anyway and the Tourist what would happen in plain and com Board, I hope, are nothing if not hon mon talk. It is to the great advantage est, frank and realistic, -and th ey said for the United Kingdom that they have “Frankly we are not going to be able this Common Purse. It is not to our to guarantee that we are going to get advantage, we only get what we are the figures of visitors rapidly up by entitled! to get. It is their money they 20%. The main job is to keep them up collect for us and which the Isle of to their present figure and that is a Man Government pay them to collect. task enough as it is.” It is just as sample as that and as for experts going into this, there is no Mr. Devereau: Could we even cope necessity for that whatsoever. We have with that increase ? far to© much of this expert business looking into things, Manx Electric Mr. Clucas: Quite. There are all Railway, Steam Railway, traffic inside sorts of contributory arguments I quite and outside the Island, and all the rest agree which have a very strong bearing of it, by people Who know nothing on iit. Sweeping all that aside on the about it. You will have Professors of pure mathematics there had to be, by Entomology coming across here looking its very , nature there had to be a few into the correct and proper way to run assumptions such as the percentage of -a steam railway. We have great pro persons leaving the Island who would fessors who set up enquiries into the actually. take U'P this duty-free con nursing profession who know nothing cession. 1 ¡Nevertheless whichever way about it and then we are landed with you transpose the figures I am afraid something like the “ Salmon Report” the prospect? in the short term without which cost thousands and' thousands of detailed krio^ledge of their. ' wider pounds to implement. The next thing effects ..on, the Common Purse, .frankly we have on tbaj scale is probably the the Tourist Board had to say, it. was Briggs'Report and the Cogwheel Report not the Treasury, on the .basis .of what and all these things are only going to we were informed the Tourist Board- -cost money that is all. The one that had to say, very reluotantly indeed, you are''setting up now or intend to “It is not-, on,” .-and that, is why I set up to make enquiry' into this is applaud this resolution.’- - only going to -cost a lot of money, Declaratory Resolution—- Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T333 £25,000 or more, at the very least to ment. It appears to me that it is going get these peoiple to come here to estim to be purely a fact finding issue and ate things that we already know our at the end of the day what position selves. We do not need anybody to tell are we going to find ourselves in ? We u's what to do. It will probably cost are going to find ourselves in exactly more than that if we get this report the same position as we have found and it says, “It will ¡be far better for ■ourselves this afternoon, where certain you people to opt out of the ¡Common members have preconceived' ideas as Purse,” the United Kingdom Govern to the Common Plurse Arrangement and ment will not let you. They will say, others have opposing views. I have no “We are not going to agree to this” doulbt that the right step to take at and then you have had it. Where are this time is to support the views ex you going to go from there ? Do you pressed by the hon. member, Mr. Irving actually think for one moment if we and indeed by the Finance Board and say here and now that we are going set up this Commission. If we are going to opt out of the Common Purse that to pay somewhere of the order of the United Kingdom is going to go to £25,000 for this job to 'be done — I will all the trouble of setting up customs admit that is only a figure that has barriers in all those ports against been pluicked out of the Sky, it could 60,000 people in the ¡Isle of Man and ■be £5,000, it could be £15,000, it could a half-million who come here for holi be £30,000 — at least let us try and days? Do you think they are going get value for money. Let us try and to have all that? Not on your life. The get value for money -and not only ask people Who come here, if they are those concerned to make us aware of going to be subject to examination in the advantages and disadvantages, but all the ports where they tgo, either by also to make recommendations because air or sea and maybe have to wait unless we set up a high powered team an hour or two hours in ¡port while like this who can come forward with somebody goes through their baggage some positive conclusions at the end to see if they have got any duty free, of the day, Tynwald Court is going to it is not on. The thing that you are be in exactly the same position as .this trying to set up today is just a great afternoon. Accordingly, sir, it gives me waste of money which I could use for very great pleasure to move an amend a better purpose than that. ment that at the very end of the reso lution to add these words, “such report Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, I to include recommendations.” For my fully support, but on listening to the part, to embark upon an exercise of debate and reasoning the resolution, I thus nature, at ¡considerable cost of am very much reminded of an opinion public funds, to ask for opinions and that was expressed by another well- not to ask that particular team to make known expert who came to the Island positive recommendations on ¡this par to advise upon some of our multitudin ticular count, in my opinion, would be ous problems and he was a-professor largely a waste of time and a waste and he expressed this view. “ If you are of money. I formally move the amend going to employ an economist,” he ment I have indicated to the ’Court. said, “for goodness sake get a one- armed one, otherwise, they will come Mr. .Moore : Your Excellency, I will along with a recommendation which second 'this amendment, because I was will say on the one • hand. you can do going to say that we are now indulging this and on the one hand you- can do — we haive all got to speak on this that.” (Laughter).-This is -a two-iarmed because when this sort of resolution resolution. It really, asks the Court to comes forward if you sit back and say agree to the setting up of what is nothing -and .nobody has contributed going to be, I presume, a very high- any new stuff to What we 'already know powered1 te^m.and which will;make us about this particular problem, but if aware of ^egadyjantages^and disadvant you sit „back and say nothing you are ages of the -'CoBnmon Purse Arrange not interested. Therefore you have got ir n ...... iai.i.1 — .T r. , in Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved. T334 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 to get up and say something about it. recommendations, and’ I know, through The only sensible thing that has been speaking to outside Chairmen of these said at present is that if we go in to sort of Committees, they say “We want all1 this trouble which, in my opinion ed to say this but we felt if we did the again, is a pure dilettante exercise, whole lot might go down the drain.” we will get nowhere at the end The whole thing is edited in a way to of it as we have all made our present a particular point of view. With minds up, make no mistake about it, respect to the hon. mover of the amend where We go with the Common Purse. ment, I think it really would be much The hon. member of Council Mr. safer to have this clear resolution, Kneale said it in no uncertain terms. which seems to command very wide We know where we are going On this support, given a hearing and not to and no matter what the experts say support the amendment. It will not the reply will foe the same as it always make any difference anyway I suppose. is in this hon. Count ‘VWhat do these The Governor : Do you wish to reply? experts know that we do not know better?” . We are always told this no Mr. Irving: Yes, Your Excellency, matter how many reports come up. If I would like to thank those hon. mem we are going to employ experts, and bers Who have given this motion un nobody is going to be bnave enough qualified support this afternoon. One or to turn this motion down, if we are two, particularly the one who is absent going to employ these experts, let them at the moment, have tended to rock’ the come forward with some recommenda boat slightly in supporting, but I would tions that we can look at and try and thank the hon. members who have sup make our minds up. They will have to ported it. In particular I am very be very strong recommendations to grateful for the support I have received make any members of the Court change from the Chairman of' the Finance their mind which they have already Board. I always feel that 'he destroyed made up over perhaps five or ten years. any hope I had Of getting it through in 1972 and I value very much indeed the Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, may I, support of Finance Board, as a whole, just very briefly, say that I speak this afternoon. I do want to try and against the amendment of the hon. answer a lot of the questions that have member of the Council. As it so hap been raised. I am not surprised that pens I just happen to have with my the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. papers for reasons which are fairly ob Anderson, should play the same old vious, this (Manx Electric Railway Study tune as he did last time about the cost Report prepared by Transmark, Octo of an enquiry and how many enquiries ber 1973, which is full of conclusions we have had in the past and how many and recommendations and where has it I have been responsible for. I was got us? Two years and two months responsible, on a private member’s further on. and yet I must say, Your motion, for the Imbalance of Popula Excellency, with reference personally tion Commission, the Economic En to the hon. mover of this amendment, quiry, the Commission on the Tourist when will he learn ? Here is the Report Industry, but one other and that wias of the Steering Committee on Transport the MacDermot Commission on the on the future use of the Manx Electric Constitution of /the Isle of Man and Railway, page 9, “Recommendations.” that one makes it all worthwhile. Hon. Where have they got us? Would it members, including the hon. member not be far better, as the hon. mover for Ayre, Mr. Clucas, I thought had in his mind to start with, to have talked in terms of a Commission. They a balance sheet, advantages, disadvant were using the word “commission” or ages and each member should make up “committee” in this case. We are not his own mind and interpret the report thinking of course of anything like .that, in his own way? Surely that is far we are going to ask someone experi better than having it all slanted one enced in economic matters to tell us way or the other to come up with the the advantages and disadvantages of Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T335 the Common Purse Arrangement, countries of the Community and for whether we should seek variations, this purpose we may be one of them, whether we should 9tay in, or whether but these are important issues which we should come out altogether. The are not things that one can look up in hon. member for Glenfalba or iit may the flies of the Treasury, things people have been the hon. memlber for Peel would have to investigate very care spoke about possible variations. The fully. The hon. member for Castletown, variations we have had in the Comtnon Mrs. Quayle, said “How do you dhoose Purse Arrangement as it were have ■the experts?” 1 -think someone else been after consultation with Whitehall, said this too. I (would assume that the if you like, on beer and petrol, and I Finance Board who are dealing with do not think they have been on any financial and economic matters in the thing else. We are talking, or I believe Isle of IMan and we tend to think in the 'Chairman of Finance Board, was terms of finance. The Treasurer, for talking purely on the sort of variation, example, has to be an economic expert after consultation, in beer and1 petrol on this Island now. I would have and not a lot of V.A.T. arrangements thought that even though the Treasurer on tobacco and so on. I am grateful too personally if you like, or the Treasury, to Mr. Speaker for his support. He have not got the time to do it them says that he believes that the Common selves, it would be quite unfair to ex Purse Arrangement gives us the power pect them t0 do ft, I am sure there are to manoeuvre and refers to E.E.C'. pro other persons who are capable of doing posals. I have a theory that we are it, for example, I am not recommending not necessarily in the European Com them, but P.A. Management who did munity just for free trade. I (believe the main economic survey and who we are in the European Community are now doing another economic survey for free movement of goods and there and who said after the main survey is a very great difference indeed. Free that they would like to go into certain trade still involves customs, free move things in detail including the Common ment of goods does not. In other words, Purse Arrangement. I have no idea the movement of goods ¡between our who will be selected to do this job if selves and the Community under free hon. members agree today, but I would movement of goods would be as free have thought it would have been some as the movement of goods from Dou one like that. I do want to say that in glas to Ramsey now, no customs what bringing this forward from the Tourist soever. This can only take place after Board we are not as a Board recom the harmonisation of excise duties in mending retention of the Common the Community, a fact to which' the Purse or abrogation of the Common hon. member for South Douglas, Mr. Purse, nor are we talking about cheap Bell, referred. It may well be in a few drinks, tobacco and so on; we are con years’ time, goodness knows how long sidering it, in a much wider way than it will take them to harmonise excise that. I do want to say this as a mem duties, but it then may not be possible ber of the Tourist Board that I believe for areas within the Community to that the high cost of travel to the have special rates of excise' duty and1 Island nowadays, the high cost of access Value Added Tax etcetera. This is to this tourist resort, plus the unem the sort of thing .that I would expect ployment in the U.K., mean that we these people who are making the in are going to have to fight to keep up vestigation to go into. Another hon. the present level of tourism in this member mentioned the fact, and indeed I think it was the hon. member for Island. I think for tourism alone I Peel, the question of removing this think we ought to investigate this. I duty-free concession within the Com do not think we can afford to ignore munity. We know they are trying to these sort of suggestions which are put do that now. None of these duty-free to us. Above all I believe, sir, that arrangements in travelling by air and the Manx people are entitled to know so on will apply within the various the advantages and the disadvantages Declaratory Resolution — Re Independent Examination of Common Purse Arrangements — Approved. T336 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 of this very important Common Purse IN THE COUNCIL Agreement. F o r : The Lord Bishop, Messrs. The Governor: I will first put the Quayle, Kneale, Crellin, Nivison, question that the words added in the Crowe 'and Kerruish — 7. amendment proposed by the hon. mem Against; Nil ber of the Council shall be added to The Governor : In the Council seven the main question. Is that agreed? in favour, none against, the resolution A division was called for and voting therefore carries. resulted as follows :— IN THE KEYS DECLARATORY RESOLUTION RE LACK OF TYNWALD AND For : Miss Thorniton-Duesbery, Messrs. DEPARTMENTAL CONSULTATION Ranson, Lowey, Moore, Ward, ON BUNKELL AND BURTON Hislop and the Speaker — 7. REPORT — WITHDRAWN Against: Messrs. Anderson, Mac The Governor: Item No. 20. I call Leod, Clueas, Radcliffe, Creer, upon Mr. MacLeod. Spittall, Cringle, Mrs. Quayle, Mr. Irving, .Miss Cowin, Mr. Devereau, Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency, I beg Mrs. Hanson and Mr. MacDonald to move:— — 13. WHEREAS in a statement to Tynwald on 15th April 1975 the Chairman of the The Speaker: Your Excellency, the Civil Service Commission referred to amendment fails to carry in the House the review by Messrs. Bunkell and of Keys, seven votes being cast in fav Burton of all adminstrative and execu our and thirteen against. tive posts in the Isle of Man Civil Ser IN THE COUNCIL vice and explained that it was desirable that the contents of their Report should For : Mr. Kerruish —r 1. not be divulged to anyone other than Against: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. those to whom they were addressed. Quayle, Kneale, Crellin, Nivison RESOLVED :— That Tynwald is of the and Crowe — 6. opinion that, whilst accepting the need for confidentiality, the Civil Service The Governor: One in favour and' Commission, before implementing the six against, the resolution therefore recommendations contained in the Re stands on the Agenda. Is that agreed, port, should have consulted Tynwald hon. members ? before introducing a completely new A division was called for and voting clerical grade into the structure of the resulted as follows :— Civil Service, and before deciding on the upgrading or downgrading of exist IN THE KEYS ing posts in the Civil Service, should F o r : Messrs. Clueas, Radcliffe, Miss have consulted the Boards or Depart Thomiton-Duesbery, Messrs. Creer, ments concerned and subsequently Ranson, Spittall, Cringle, Lowey, should have been prepared to give Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Moore, Ward, reasons for the Commission's decisions. Irving, Miss Cowin, Mr. Devereau, I am very sorry to see so many Mrs. Hanson, Mr. Hislop and the empty seats at this time of night when - Speaker — 17..: _ . . • there is such an important thing on the Against: Messrs. Anderson, MacLeod Agenda as this. We have been talking and MacDonald — 3. at the present time about experts coming across here to do something for The Speaker: Your Excellency, the the Irle of Man. While accepting that resolution carries in the Keys, seven the Civil Service Commission is the teen votes being cast in favour and body responsible for deciding what the three against. establishment of Boards or Depart- Declaratory Resolution re Lack of Tynwald and Departmental Consultation on Bunkell and Burton Report — Withdrawn. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER ,10, 1975 T337 ■merits should be, I maintain that it is mis ion, however, has reached deci wrong for the Commission to carry out sions without such consultation. The or introduce into the Civil Service a Commission should, in my view, have completely new clerical grade carrying had the decency, particularly in the a higher salary than any of the existing case of the downgraded post, and in grades without Tynwald having first common justice to the officers holding an opportunity to express its opinion these posts, to give the reasons for its on the matter. Besides causing an decision. This appears particularly increase in Expenditure of around neces ary when, in certain cases, the £1.000 a year in the case of each of the pos.t has carried a particular grade for seven officers afforded this grading very many years and1 no change in cir it has resulted in the increase in the cumstance would appear towards the salary of around a dozen higher posts changing of the grade. Your Excellency, ana with no doubt many more to with regard to the War Pensions fo low. It may be said that Committee who sent a deputation to the certain upgraded officers were the Civil Service Commission to make well deserving of the salary attached to enquiries into their department, they the rank of principal, but it is by no were told the reason for doing so had means certain that they all were. nothing to do with them; that it was Whatever the merits of the case, the not their business and that it was the Civil Service Commission should have business of the Commission, who were been prepared to justify its decision. the people who should alter this or not. Acting again on the Bunkell and in the case of the Employment Bureau Burton Report, the Commission saw fit the post was to be downgraded, to alter the grading of a considerable thereby insinuating that the present number of clerical posts in addition to holder of the position was being those posts upgraded to the rank of overpaid, while, at the present time, Principal without any consultation the work was becoming greater every with the Boards and Departments day. With the unemployment situation concerned. This sort of action risks and with this new Employment Bill causing dissatisfaction among the staff having to foe implemented this post and disruption in the working of should be upgraded and not down Boards and • Departments, where, for graded. I tnink only out of common example, out of a number of officers decency, if nothing else, the Civil considered by the Boards or Depart Service Commission should have ments to be doing work of equal enquired from the Boards and the importance some were singled out for various departments and told them the upgrading or downgrading. It does not rea:ons why they were downgrading or reflect well on the Commission or its upgrading the posts. This is a terrible staff, nor is it complimentary to the waste of money and it is exactly what Boards and Departments to suggest ■we were talking about, with people that two experts from England on a earning here who spend about an hour glorified holiday at the Government’s in an office looking round at this and expense spending about an hour or so that and then go away and say this is in each Government office were then what we should do — downgrade this in a better position than the persons post. I think it is disgraceful. With on the spot to say how our affairs regard to the War Pensions department should be run. In my view, the Civil and the officer in charge— it is a recog Service Commission had' no excuse for nised position even in the British failing to carry out their duties as laid Government, and every person Who down in section 3 (3) of the Isle of gets this position as chief officer of the Man Civil Service Act 1962, which War Pensions Committee has to go to reads: “ (3) Every appointment, promo England for a certain amount of train tion or transfer shall be made after ing before he even takes up the job. If ■consultation with the Board or head of this is downgraded to a general clerical the department concerned.” . The Com- officer, what is going to happen? Those Declaratory Resolution re Lack of Tynwald and Departmental Consultation on Bunkell and Burton Report — Withdrawn. T338 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 young fellows are not going to stay estab'ishrr.ents which have been there all their lives, they are going to approved by the Finance Board and he there maybe for fix months or His Excellency were sent to each something, and therefore what is the Board and Department on the 7th point of them going? Off the next one March 1975, together with an invitation goes to England for another examina to them to submit recommendations in tion and training in the post, and so regard to the appointments which had it goes on and on, with clerical officers to be made. Of the 22 Boards and going off the Island about every six Departments concerned, only three months, and we wi'l be paying subsis commented adversely on the alterations tence and travelling allowance and all which have been made. The denial to the various other things. In the end it their request to be given copies of the will cost much more to downgrade this reviewing officers’ reports on their post than to keep it in the grade it is Departments further accentuated their in at the present time. I think the cppo:ition to the changes which had whole thing is ridiculous and I would been made. Whether the Commission sincerely hope that the Civil Service was right, as it believes it was, in Commission would have the decency in deciding not to make the reports future if any post is to be downgraded available, is for others to judge. It is or upgraded in any of the departments relevant to mention that the manner that they should at least confer with in which the Commission handled the the department or the committee which entire matter was fully supported by is running it. I beg to move the reso the Staff Association which, in no lution standing in my name. circumstances, wished to see highly The Speaker: I beg to second and confidential reports to the Commission reserve my remarks. being circulated. The resolution implies that the Commission exceeded Mr. Hislop: May I, Your Excellency, its authority in creating a new grade, first of all express my profound regret but section 10 (b) of the Civil Service that the hon. member for Glenfaba Act 1962 ' gives the Commission the neglected to observe the traditional power to make such variations in the courtesies of this Court by his failure establishment of Boards and Depart to notify either me or any other ments as may, with the consent of the members of the Commission of his Governor, seem meet. This power to intention to submit the proposition vary establishments, whether by the appearing on the Agenda in his name. introduction of a higher grade or, as That he should invite you to pass what was done some years ago, by down is a vote of censure on a body which grading about 35 clerical officer posts holds itself available at all times to to clerical assistant, is clearly within sympathetically consider and discuss the Commission’s statutory competence. the staffing requirements of Boards It is not incumbent upon the Commis and Departments with them, is not only sion to consult Tynwald whenever it an acknowledgement of his lack of decides that changes are desirable in understanding of how the Commission the best interests of the public service. operates but also a direct challenge to I do not know who inspired this reso the lawful authority vested in the 'Commission by this hon. Court. He lution but I reject absolutely the complains about the lack of consulta allegation that there was no consulta tion with Boards and Departments, but tion with Boards and Departments, and the record shows that on the 13th I repudiate most forcefully the implied February 1974 every Board and Depart assertion that the Commission exceeded ment was told that a review of the authority vested in it by the Civil administrative and executive posts was Service Act. to be carried out by Messrs. Bunkell Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I rise and Burton later that month. The to compliment the Civil Service Com record also shows that the revised mission upon the steps they took. As a Declaratory Resolution re Lack of Tynwald and Departmental Consultation on Bunkell and Burton Report — Withdrawn. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 T339 member of the Whitley Council for unable to get the information. While some considerab’e time now, I feel the Staff As-ociation may uphold this certain that it was time it did arise sort of resolution, the one that provides when this had to be done. In our own them with extra money naturally, I do Department, with which I have now think that we always have to guard been associated for many years, we the position of the taxpayer in this one did find there were certain dissensions and I am quite sure the Civil Service by certain of the staff as to the grading Commission do. What I would like to they had in the establishment. Since be clear on is that the Report’s this report was brought before the recommendations were strictly adhered Board—and the Board was given every to by the Civil Service Commission opportunity to consider it, and a that there was no variation, and I considerable amount of time was spent would like if that point can be cleared with the staff in consultations — they in the light of this resolution. found, and I feel certain, I am speak Mr. Creer: Your Excellency, I do not ing on behalf of the staff on this point, support the reso'ution. I would not like that • they welcomed an independent to see the time ever come when out'ide body to review their situation Tynwald will decide whether a person and report thereon. Without further should be upgraded or downgraded. I comment, Your Excellency, I think the Civil Service Commission took exactly hope that time will never come that the right steps which they did take and anything like that would be introduced to see that these reports were kept into this Court. Mr. Speaker has just confidential was the proper way to said about two getting upgraded in handle them. It was not of any interest, Finance Division, or one, I forget what I would say, to any other party, but he said, but it does not matter, every members of this hon. Court who are Board is entitled to go to the Civil responsible for running their Boards Service Commission any time they like and to see that their staff are getting to try to get a person upgraded. I did paid 'and are in proper analogues for it for the Health Services and I cannot the positions they hold. 1 do feel that, see anything wrong with it. If the speaking as' one involved in this, from, Finance Board went to the Civil the Local Government Board’s point of Service Commission and asked them to view we welcomed it and I am certain upgrade certain people, they are quite the staff did too. entitled to do it. I hope that the day will never come when we have got to The Speaker: Your Excellency, no- come and ask Tynwald when a person one questions the authority of the is to be upgraded or anything like that. Commission. I do think in this case, however, if information would have Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, in been transmitted to Tynwald it would support of my Chairman, I can say have been helpful, because there is a that I have dealt with Civil Service thought abroad which the hon. Chair Commissions before and I am very, man can probably dismiss, that the very conversant with the problems Report’s provisions were not adhered which they face. Perhaps, Mr. to by the Civil Service Commission Speaker, as a non-Board member of and that, in fact, there was a deal Tynwald, did not see any of the between the Finance Board and the reports because the Civil Service Com Civil Service Commission to add two mission did not circulate throughout further nominees to the list provided the whole of the service every detail of by the experts. It would be helpful to the Bunkell and Burton reports to each us all if this can be contradicted and Board. My own Board got a copy of the dismissed. The other point I would like recommendations for my Board, and I to make is that while the hon. Chair think every Board Chairman here, and man says that information can be got Board members, the Board of Educa from the Civil Service Commission, tion, they ia'11 saw these and they each that has been tried and we have been got the chance of agreeing, disagreeing Declaratory Resolution re Lack of Tynwald and Departmental Consultation on Bunkell and Burton Report — Withdrawn. T340 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 or recommending whether a man in the picture. At the same time, I only should be promoted to a new post hope when he discusses his own staff above his igrade, or be downgraded. problems he discusses them with the They were all given the opportunity, Civil Service Commission, because I Board by Board. I think it would be think this is also right, otherwise we very wrong of the Civil Service Com get an off-balance. You all saw recently mission to start circulating things the jockeying for posts, the jockeying throughout the service in general, very for money which went on in Manx confidential reports which are made on Government circles, which I deplore its behalf, on behalf of the Manx and I think is wrong and totally wrong. taxpayer, and that is the main thing— I only hope the Court today will we have got to safeguard their rights. recognise that in the Civil Service Where this has arisen from—I know a Cornmi sion, not because I am on it, civil ¡.ervant in the Employment they have a system truly tried and Exchange was disgruntled—he wanted tested in every part of the Common a personal copy of the report and he wealth, and gxeepting those where, dic- was told no. The Staff Association, . tators wish to dictate, it is running which represents all Civil Servants,-^ very well. God-help us if we ever reach accepted this. that position here. Mr. MacLeod: How many of them M'ss Cowin: Your Excelency, may I were upgraded? ask a question on a .point of clarifi Mr. MacDonald: Some were down cation? Am I to understand that a man graded, sir. Some were downgraded and who either has or imagines he has a accepted it, and some were moved and grievance has no way of ascertaining accepted it. There was no other oppo what has been said about him? In my sition to this. It is the confidentiality, book, if you make a complaint ..about Your Excellency, of the Civil Service anybody, you make a complaint about deliberation which I think is vital. that person to the relevant authority Destroy this and you destroy the whole and let the person know about the faith in the service. There is only one complaint that you have made. I think Department over which we have no that that is generally accepted in control and that is Mr. Speaker’s human society. Am I to understand a department. It is handled mainly by person who has reason for being upset Mr. Speaker and it is the Clerk of was not given a little slip of paper Tynwald’s Department. We have no which said “You do not spell well” or control . . . something of that sort, “ and therefore your are downgraded?” The Speaker: The House of Keys. Mr. MacDona'.d: The House of Keys. Mr. MacDonald: Who is the lady asking the question of, Your Excel The promotions are made without any reference to the Civil Service Commis lency? sion and people are upgraded, out-of- M'ss Cowin: I am sorry, Your Excel tum we think often, without any lency. May I make my point quite reference to the Civil Service Commis dear. I cannot see the authority by sion. which the last speaker asked for my . The Speaker: That is not true! reference. I would ask, please, and I Mr. MacDonald: They are civil ser was asking the Court through you, vants at one time and not at other Your Excellency, and I ask now the times. This wants tidying up, I think. Chairman of the relevant Board. This does want tidying up. I am sorry Mr. Spittall: Your Excellency, per that Mr. Speaker, who is not a Chair haps as the longest standing member man of a Board or a Board member, of the Civil Service Commission, did not get a personal copy. I am very perhaps I could answer for my sorry. Perhaps we should have let him Chairman. In the first place we were have a copy then he would have been discussing posts, not people, and this Declaratory' Resolution re Lack of Tynwald and Departmental Consultation on Bunkell and Burton Report — Withdrawn. TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1975 T341 is very different. A post was down not only been in the interests of the graded, 'a perron was not downgraded. administration of Government, but has I think this clears your point. I do been very largely in the interest and believe that I ought to perhaps say the long-term prospects of those actu something to Mr. Speaker, too, Your al y engaged in that service. I think Excellency. We did not abide strictly the who^ question we have before us by the Bunkell and Burton Report. We today is, has the Civil Service acted took the Bunkell and Burton Report, within their constitutional rights and which we knew had been written by their legal rights in itaking the steps two experienced staffing people in the they did? For my part I am satisfied British Civil Service and then applied that the answer to that question is in our know'edge of the Manx Civil the affirmative and I would like to Service and our Manx conditions to it endorse the many complimentary and came up with what we consider, remarks that have been made regard and still do consider, a very reasonable ing what I have always found to be the answer. very close and ready co-operation of the Civil Service Commission in any Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I problem connected with the staffing of would like to comment as an ordinary Boards. member of two Boards and one Council—the Consumer Council—I was Mr. Hislop : May I, Your Excellency, unaware of the Bunkell and Burton before we come to the end answer a Report, but I was unhappy about the couple of questions. position of a number of women mem Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency, I bers of the Civil Service as a result of would object to that. this report and I brought their The Governor: I think the only ques complaints at the time to this hon. tion which has been posed has been Court and as far as I am aware they answered, Mr. Hislop, unless there is were satisfied at the eventual outcome. anybody else. Your Exce lency, this does give me the opportunity to say that I believe Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency, at the Civil Service is very male-orienta the very outset, at the beginning of ted and I would like to see some my remarks I said, whilst accepting women in the higher positions. that the Civil Service Commission is the body responsible for deciding the Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, as establishment of Boards and Depart one of the original members of the ments should be, II maintain it was Civil Service Commission, I have wrong for the Commission to intro always held the view that the unifica duce into the Civil Service a new tion of the Civil Service in the Island clerical grade. Nevertheless that is not has been one of the greatest steps the point I am trying to even ouit. What forward in the improvement of the ■I am trying to even out is the point administration on the Island. In years that in the Isle of Man Civil Service Act gone by, a man or a woman could be 1962' it says “3(3) Every appointment, marooned in a certain section of the promotion or transfer shall be made Civil Service with very little prospects; after consultation with the Board or today the whole of the service is his the Head of the Department concerned. oyster, so to speak. Under the super The appointment of the chief executive vision of the Civil Service Commission officer of a Board or professional or it is open for any man or woman—andi technical officer of a Board, shall only there are certain of the females occu be made with the consent of the Board'.” pying quite high positions within the I do not know whether the War Pen Civil Service — to have open to them sions Cbmmittee is a Board or not a any post within the whole structure of Board, but I will tell you this moch the Government service in the Island. we each sent a deputation from there I feel this has to be recognised. The to the Civil Service Commission to creation of unified civil servants has ask the reasons why the post was to Declaratory Resolution re Lack of Tynwald and Departmental Consultation on Bunkell and Burton Report — Withdrawn. T342 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1975 be down-graded and we were told in now withdraw. I would take this oppor no uncertain terms it was no business tunity oif wishing members the compli of ours, that is the Whole point of the ments of the Season and leave the thing. There should have been consulta Speaker to put such .business to the tion with -the Board1 before it was down House of Keys as he would wish. graded or upgraded. That is all I am The Speaker : May I on behalf of all complaining about. I am not saying the members reciprocate your good wishes Civil Service Commission are not doing and wish you, sir, Lady Paul and your their jab properly or anything else. I family a very Happy Christmas and a would like fair to be fair and if we are Good New Year. going to have that and people are going Members : Hear, hear. to defy them and do what they like it is a different thing entirely. That is what I 'am talking about. ;1 withdraw the HOUSE OF KEYS resolution. The Speaker : The House will now The Governor: You withdraw the sit in private. resolution. Hon. members that con cludes our business. The Council will The House sat in private. House of Keys.