REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, October 18, 1977 at 10.39 a.m.

Present: The Governor (Sir John Paul, Cinematograph Bill, Maintenance Orders G.C.M.O., O.B.E., M.C.). In the Council: (Reciprocal Enforcement) Bill, and Social The Lord Bishop (the Rt. Rev. Vernon Security Legislation (Application) (Amend­ Nicholls), the Attorney-General (Mr. J. W. ment) Bill. If hon. members agree, we will Corrin), Sir John Bolton, O.B.E., Messrs. continue with our business while these Bills G. T. Crellin, E. N. Crowe, O.B.E., R. E. S. are being signed. Kerruish, J. C. Nivison, W. E. Quayle, It was agreed. A. H. Simcocks, M.B.E., with Mr. T. A. Bawden, Clerk of the Council. In the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon. H. C. Kerruish, O.B.E.), Messrs. R. J. G. Anderson, W. K. PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT. Quirk, J. J. Radcliffe, P. Radcliffe, J. N. The Governor: I call on the Clerk to lay Radcliffe, Dr. E. J. Mann, Messrs. A. A. papers. Callin, R. L. Watterson, E. G. Lowey, M. R. Walker, N. Q. Cringle, Mrs. E. C. Quayle, The Clerk: I lay before the Court:— Messrs. W. A. Moore, E. M. Ward, B.E.M., Customs and Excise — Customs and Ex­ P. A. Craine, D. F. K. Delaney, E. C. Irving, cise Legislation (Application) (Amendment) Mrs. B. Q. Hanson, Messrs. T. E. Kermeen, Order 1977. Customs and Excise Legislation I.S.O., R. MacDonald, J. J. Christian, G. C. (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order Swales, with Mr. R. B. M. Quayle, Clerk of 1977. Customs and Excise Legislation (Ap­ Tynwald. plication) Order 1977. Hydrocarbon Oil, Etc. (Excise) Act 1974 APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE. — Hydrocarbon Oil, Etc. (Excise) Act 1974 The Governor: I have apologies for the (Amendment) Order 1977. absence of the hon. member of Council, Mr. Value Added Tax — Value Added Tax Kneale, who is absent on duty, and also and Car Tax 1977. Value Added Tax (Isle from the hon. member for Middle, Mr. of Man) (Self-Supply) (Amendment) Order Creer. 1977. Isle of Man Steam Railway — Report of ANNOUNCEMENT OF ROYAL the Steering Committee on Transport. ASSENT. Indigenous Power Sources — Interim Re­ The Governor: I have to announce, in port of Committee. accordance with the terms of section 2 of Church Legislation — Report of the Ec­ the Acts of Tynwald (Emergency Promulga­ clesiastical Committee of Tynwald on the tion) Act 1916, that the Royal Assent was Church (Suspension of Presentation) Bill given to the following Acts on the 26th July 1977. Second Report of the Ecclesiastical 1977— Judicature (Wardship) Act 1977; Committee of Tynwald on the Church Short Titles Act 1977. (General Synod Measures) Bill 1976. Pensions Increase — Pensions Increase BILLS FOR SIGNATURE. (Manual Workers Superannuation Schemes) The Governor: Item 2 on the Agenda, we Regulations 1977. have the following Bills for signature this Price M arking Act 1976 — Price Marking morning— Statute Law Revision Bill, (Fish) Order 1977.

Apologies for Absence. — Announcement of Royal Assent. — Bills for Signature. — Papers Laid before the Court. T2 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

Food and Drugs Act 1963. — Meat Inspec­ Tenth Report of the Isle of Man Health tion (Amendment) Regulations 1977. Services Board for the period 1st April 1974 Local Government Acts 1916 to 1976 — to 31st March 1975. Twenty-Fourth Annual Local Government (Increase of Fees) Order Report of the Work of the Isle of Man 1977. Board of Education in the exercise of their function under the Children and Young Housing Acts 1955 to 1976 — Peel and Persons Acts 1966 to 1974 for the year Western District Housing (Amendment) ended 31st March 1977. Fourth Report of Order 1977. the Isle of Man Post Office Authority for National Health Service—National Health the period 1st April 1976 to 31st March Service (Isle of Man) (Charges) Amendment 1977. Regulations 1977. National Health Service (Isle of Man) (Charges) Amendment (No. 2) Local Government Board’s Approval to Regulations 1977. Petitions— Approval dated 1st July 1977 to the following Petitions :— (1) Petition of Sea Fisheries — Sea Fisheries (Crabs) Bye- the Douglas Corporation for approval to the Laws 1977. sale of a certain parcel of land situate Social Security— Social Security Subsidiary between Kionney Road and Cushag Road Legislation (Application) (No. 2) Order on the Anagh Coar Estate to Heron and 1977. Social Security Subsidiary Legislation Brearley Limited for the sum of £2,500-00. (Application) (No. 3) Order 1977. Social (2) Petition of the Douglas Corporation for Security Subsidiary Legislation (Application) approval to the sale of a certain parcel of (Child Benefit) Order 1977. Supplementary land situate abutting upon St. George’s Benefit (Isle of Man) (Determination of Terrace, Douglas, to David Edward Corkill Requirements) Regulations 1977. Family and Ann Oliver Corkill for the sum of Income Supplements (Isle of Man) (Com­ £250-00. (3) Petition of the Laxey Village putation) (No. 2) Regulations 1977. Child Commissioners for authority to borrow a Benefit (United Kingdom) Order 1977. Child sum not exceeding £1,50000, repayable Benefit (Guernsey) Order 1977. within 10 years, for the purpose of re­ Police (Isle of Man) Act 1962 — Isle of roofing the Promenade Shelter and Toilets Man Police Pay and Allowances Determina­ at the south end of Laxey Promenade, tion 1977. SUBJECT to the reduction of the amount of the borrowing to a sum not exceeding Wild Birds Protection Acts 1932 to 1975 £700-00. (4) Petition of the Port Erin Village — Annual list of licences granted by the Commissioners for authority to borrow a Lieutenant-Governor in terms of Section 9 sum not exceeding £1,250-00, repayable of the Wild Birds Protection Act 1932 — within 20 years, for the purchase of a parcel Mr. John Nuttall of 278 Brownside Road, of land abutting upon the Promenade, Port Worsthorne, Near Burnley, Lancashire. Mr. Erin, and the implementation of certain Denzil John Slinn of the University of works to continue the footpath along the Liverpool Department of Marine Biology, whole length of the said Promenade. (5) Port Erin. Petition of the Marashen Crescent Housing Whitley Council Agreement — Isle of Committee — (a) for authority to borrow a M an. Civil Service — Amendment of Salary sum, not exceeding £3,70000, repayable Scales and Conditions of Service (Public within 60 years from the date of borrowing, Notice No. 58/77). for the purpose of replacing bathroom suites and floor coverings in Nos. 29, 30, 31, 32, 33 Employment — Thirty-Second Bi-Annual and 34 Marashen Crescent, Port Erin; and Report from the Industrial Advisory Council (b) for approval, subject to the agreement to Tynwald. Statement by the Chairman of of the Finance Board, of the payment by the Employment Committee of the Board of Government of the annual deficiency in Social Security. connection therewith, SUBJECT to:— (i) ' Annual Reports — Annual Reports of the the reduction of the amount of the bor­ Government Analyst’s Laboratory for the rowing by the amount of any excess bor­ year ended 31st December 1976. Annual rowings remaining after the completion of Report of the Manx Museum and National the main contract for conversion works in Trust for the year ended 31st March 1977. the properties concerned; (ii) the inclusion

Papers Laid before the Court. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T3

in the calculations of annual deficiency of charges incurred in connection with Im­ the agreed allowances for maintenance and provement Schemes with the consequent administration of 20 per cent, and five per reduction in deficiency. (The concurrence of cent, of rentals respectively; (iii) the addition the Finance Board has been obtained.) of any increased annual costs to the overall deficiency on the principal scheme. (The concurrence of the Finance Board has been BOARD OF EDUCATION — obtained.) COMPOSITION — QUESTION BY MR. KERMEEN. Approval dated 15th July 1977 to the following Petitions:— (6) Petition of the The Governor: Item number 4, questions. Douglas Corporation for approval to the I call on the hon. member for West Douglas leasing from Olcell and Son Limited, for the to ask the question standing in his name. term of twenty-one years at the yearly rental Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I beg to of 25 pence, of a parcel of land at the ask:— Is it the intention of Your Excel­ Falcon Brewery, Murrays Road, Douglas, lency, on the advice of your Executive for the purpose of an Electrical Sub-Station Council, to introduce in the legislative only. (7) Petition of the Castletown Town session now commencing a Bill to amend Commissioners for authority to borrow a the provisions of section 2 of the Education sum, not exceeding £11,000-00, repayable Act 1968, together with such consequential within 50 years, for the conversion of the amending legislation as would thereby be Old Gas Works abutting Alexandra Road, necessary? Castletown, into a works depot, storage area and car park for letting for large com­ The Governor: Yes, sir. The question of mercial vehicles, SUBJECT to the reduction an amendment of section 2 of the Education of the repayment period from fifty years to Act 1968 is receiving the attention of Execu­ twenty-five years. tive Council. Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, may I ask Approval dated 5th August 1977 to the a supplementary? Are you aware of the following Petition:— (8) Petition of the anxieties caused to potential candidates for Onchan Village Commissioners for authority election under the Education Act in not to re-purchase plots at Birch Hill Estate knowing what their future is? (Phase 5), Onchan, as follows:— (a) Plot The Governor: Now you have brought it No. 71, containing 568 square yards, for to my attention I am, but I was not aware £1,42000 from David Robert Corran; (b) before that. Plot No. 106, containing 533 square yards, for £1,865 50 from Stanislaw Dumanski and Hilda M arjorie Dumanski; (c) Plot No. 131, 558 square yards, for £1,953-00 from Brian MEDICAL BENEFITS FOR MANX Woodall and Rita Woodall; (d) From PERSONS OVERSEAS— AVAILABILITY Scanciv (Isle of Man) Limited— (i) Plot OF FACILITIES — QUESTION BY No. 11, containing 630 square yards, for MRS. QUAYLE. £2,362-50; (ii) Plot No. 51, containing 524 The Governor: Question number 2. The square yards, for £1,965-00; and (iii) Plot hon. member for Castletown, Mrs. Quayle. No. 70, containing 534 square yards, for £2,002-50. Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I beg to ask:— Whereas all visitors to the Isle of Approval dated 2nd September 1977 to Man from whatever country are classed as the following Petition:— (9) Petition of the “temporary residents” and consequently en­ Douglas Corporation for authority to borrow titled to receive free medical treatment while a sum not exceeding £14,900-00, repayable on the Island. Will you inform this hon. within 10 years from the date of borrowing, Court what steps are being taken by the to defray the cost of improvements to United Kingdom Government to negotiate pre-1935 houses owned by the Petitioners, on our behalf medical benefits for Manx SUBJECT to any surplus moneys accruing persons visiting those countries where medi­ to the Petitioners’ Housing Account being cal facilities are available to United King­ utilised for the prior repayment of long-term dom residents under existing agreements?

Board of Education—Composition—Question by Mr. Kermeen. — Medical Benefits for Manx Persons Overseas—Availability of Facilities—Question by Mrs. Quayle. T4 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

The Governor: Wherever possible Her Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I Majesty’s Government has taken all the beg to ask:— In reply to my question necessary steps to include the Isle of Man regarding anomalies under the Representa­ in any reciprocal Health Service agreements tion of the People Acts in December last negotiated with third countries. There are you stated that your Executive Council had 12 of these agreements in force at present recommended legislation to remove them. and one further agreement is presently Could you inform this hon. Court what pro­ under negotiation. There are, however, two gress has been made in the 10 months which main categories in which the Isle of Man have elapsed since then? has not been included, namely, firstly in The Governor: Since my reply of 21st reciprocal agreements with Russia and December 1976 the required provision has Czechoslovakia, because these agreements been drafted and incorporated in the Statute are mainly concerned with the exchange Law Revision (Miscellaneous Provisions) of research and other information, and, Bill which is presently undergoing the secondly, in arrangements with Common normal consultative procedures prior to its Market member states because these ar­ introduction into the Legislature. rangements have been negotiated in accordance with the Treaty of Rome, under Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Thank you, sir. provisions from which the Island was ex­ Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, may I pressly excluded when Protocol 3 to the ask a supplementary? Would Executive Treaty of Accession was negotiated. Addi­ Council still be prepared to receive any re­ tionally, there are no special arrangements presentations on the anomalies of the for holders of United Kingdom or Isle of present electoral law, especially that con­ Man passports in many other countries, in­ cerning the inequitable distribution of seats cluding for example Australia, Canada, in the House of Keys? (Laughter.) Greece, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland and The Governor: I am quite certain that the the United States of America. As the hon. Executive Council will be prepared to member will be aware, the prudent visitor receive any representations from hon. to such countries takes out adequate in­ members. surance to cover the cost of any medical treatment which may be required. Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, may I ask MILLENNIUM OF TYNWALD — a supplementary? You mentioned Spain. VIEWS OF MANX MUSEUM AND My understanding is that both Spain and NATIONAL TRUST — QUESTION Switzerland, which are countries to which BY MR. KERMEEN. the Isle of Man residents may go for holi­ days, that they both have arrangements with The Governor: Question number 4. The the United Kingdom. hon. member for West Douglas. Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I beg to The Governor: This is not my under­ ask:— Do the press statements attributed standing. However, we will look into this. to the Director of the Manx Museum and My understanding is that wherever an published on the 24th September with regard agreement has been concluded between the to the forthcoming celebration of the Mil­ United Kingdom and a third country on lennium of Tynwald represent the views of these reciprocal arrangements, apart from the Manx Museum and National Trust? the exceptions which I have mentioned, the Isle of Man has been included, but we will The Governor: The hon. Mr. Speaker. certainly look into this. The Speaker: Your Excellency, I am par­ ticularly pleased to have the opportunity to reply to this question this morning as I REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE understand some comment has been made ACTS — REMOVAL OF ANOMALIES — on Radio 4 in relation to our programme, QUESTION BY MR. J. N. RADCLIFFE. and I would say that the Manx Museum and National Trust support the Tynwald pro­ The Governor: Question number 3. The posal that the Island should celebrate a hon. member for Ayre, Mr. J. N. Radcliffe. thousand years of continuing Government in

Representation of the People Acts—Removal of Anomalies—Question by Mr. J. N. Rad­ cliffe. — Millennium of Tynwald—Views of Manx Museum and National Trust—Question by Mr. Kermeen. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T5

1979 and feel that recognition by Govern­ fact that the Director has accepted an in­ ment of this fact is most appropriate. The vitation to serve under the Chairmanship of Trust considers that as the archaeological the hon. member for Peel on the Historical evidence and historical probability is that Committee and as far back as the 11th May some form of Tynwald would have been the Museum and National Trust wrote to established in the Isle of Man well before the Millennium Committee informing them 979, perhaps as much as a century before that of their willingness to mount a special ex­ date, they are of the opinion that the Island hibition in 1979 on the Norse heritage in could justifiably claim to have possessed a the Isle of Man. Thank you. parliament for a much greater period of time. It is, I am sure, of interest to members to note that when in 1930 Iceland celebrated INCOME TAX INSTALMENT the 1,000th anniversary of the Althing, the PAYMENTS — DELAY IN MAKING Island’s representatives, the Speaker and the REFUNDS — QUESTION BY Deemster, who joined with representatives MR. CALLIN. of some 18 countries to convey congratula­ tions and good wishes at a ceremony held at The Governor: Question number 5. The the Mount of Laws, conveyed this message: hon. member for Middle, Mr. Callin. “We hail you in the spirit of your inimitable Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, I beg to sagas as blood brothers and co-heirs of an ask:— What is the reason for the delays in heroic tradition. We venture to dispute with making refunds of overpaid tax under you the title of the oldest legislative assembly income tax instalment payments? in the world, but we do so inspired by a The Governor: The Chairman of the feeling of pride in our common ancestry and Finance Board. in the historic continuity of our respective Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, firstly constitutions.” However, to answer fully the let me inform, the hon. member for Middle question posed by the hon. member, I must there is no question of the Treasury trying clear a vital point. The comment attributed to delay repayments; in fact they are paid quite correctly to the Director of the as quickly as possible. Before a refund can Museum is the result of a press inquiry not be made, the Treasury must receive the a press statement. It ran: “If there is employers’ return indicating the actual evidence for the celebration of a Millennium amount deducted from the pay of each in­ in 1979 I would like to hear it.” All hon. dividual employee. Employers are required members will be fully aware that if a to make returns to the Treasury by the 5th reporter poses a question, for example it May each year, but all employers do not may be: “What positive evidence do you meet this deadline and in addition many of have that on a certain date, at a specific these returns, when submitted, are incorrect. time, in a certain place a form of Govern­ All employers’ returns received by the due ment was introduced into the Island and date have been processed and refunds made that the 5th July 1979 represents the 1,000th where necessary. The Treasury is, however, anniversary of such an event?”, the Museum by no means complacent about the situation Director, who believes on the archaeological and is currently transferring the tax col­ evidence that Tynwalds were held here very lection system, on to the computer and when much earlier, is entitled to give such a reply this has been completed it is anticipated that and qualify it by saying, and I quote, “I the refund of overpaid tax will be more think the historical probability is that Tyn­ speedy. In addition, the Finance Board is wald is even older. Archaeologically, Viking looking at proposals for either a tax credit settlements on the Isle of Man can be dated system, or a full Pay-As-You-Earn system to precisely to the second half of the ninth obviate the need for refunds. I would, how­ century before they settled in Iceland and ever, like to point out that if we were to they would presumably have had some kind go on with a further inquiry into the full of formal organisation.” I would conclude Pay-As-You-Earn system, there is no question by emphasising to the hon. member the fact about it in our minds that the people who that the 1979 celebrations are assured of are complaining now about having to wait the full support of the Manx Museum and will be financially worse off under that National Trust. This is supported by the system than they are under the present

Income Tax Instalment Payments—Delay in Making Refunds—Question by Mr. Callin. T6 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

Income Tax Instalment Payments system. ments of the employee or Tynwald well Additional staff has also been allocated to naturally we, as a Board, as I have already the Assessor of Income Tax Department to said, will investigate the matter. speed up the assessment process in order that employees will be able to bring their Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, could reductions into line with their assessments. I ask a supplementary? Could the Chairman Thank you. carry out this survey as quickly as possible because when I first brought forward that Mr. Callin: I would like to ask a supple­ Pay-As-You-Earn should be introduced in mentary, Your Excellency. Firstly could I the Isle of Man, as he said, it was turned say that I am not altogether satisfied with down by Tynwald almost unanimously, that the reply, but I will confer with the Chair­ was the first year I was in Tynwald? Five man of the Finance Board after, because years, six years later when I brought it in what he has said does not coincide with the again because of the demands from the information that I have in my possession. I working people of the Island it went through, would like to ask a supplementary regarding but again a lukewarm system of Pay-As- Pay-As-You-Earn — would the Chairman You-Earn was introduced because we were agree that a Pay-As-You-Earn system is told at the time that it was very difficult for now more capable of being operated than certain people who were having all their it was before, now that we have got the accounts done by accountants to keep up-to- computer? date they had so much work on. I do not consider that the ordinary man should suffer Mr. P. Radciiiife: I would not, at this for this purpose and I consider that Pay-As- moment in time, commit myself to say that You-Earn, the full system, should be intro­ we were prepared to accept that. What 1 duced as soon as possible and I hope the have said is that the Treasury, at the present Chairman will do that. moment, are investigating the possibility. As I have said we have had complaints about Sir John Bolton: Your Excellency, may I the Income Tax Instalment Payments system, ask the hon. Chairman a supplementary we naturally want to find why these com­ question? Is it not recognised that if a Pay- plaints originate and if we can find a better As-You-Earn system were introduced in the and more satisfactory system by doing it, Island the whole basis of the assessment of we will do so. As I have already said from income would have to be changed, in that what we have investigated so far it would Pay-As-You-Earn is undoubtedly based on appear that under the Pay-As-You-Earn this current year’s income? We could not system the employee would be worse off tax the worker on the current year’s income financially than what he is at the present unless we change the basis for everybody time. else and this would create far more diffi­ culties — I think the Chairman would agree Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, could I with me — than we suffer at the present ask the Chairman to bear in mind the fact time by maintaining the basis that the Isle that a similar question had to be asked in of Man has always had and that the United 1975, a similar question had to be asked in Kingdom had before it introduced Pay-As- 1976 and here we are again in 1977?. You-Earn and got itself into the mess that Mr. P. Radcliffe: I would also like to it is in today. remind the hon. member for Castletown Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, could I that if she can cast her memory back to the ask a further supplementary question in time when this Pay-As-You-Earn system was suggested in Tynwald many years ago, these terms? In view of the fact that this and I can remember it, I was a new member hon. Chairman of the Finance Board has at that time, that Tynwald as such absolutely indicated a willingness on the part of his opposed the idea of a full comprehensive Board to consider further the system of Pay-As-You-Earn system and it was only to income tax in the Island, will he give an try to assist the employee that we intro­ undertaking to this Court that included in duced the Income Tax Instalment Payments his Board’s consideration will be the pos­ system. We do find that if these new sibility of the introduction of negative systems do not coincide with the require­ income tax?

Income Tax Instalment Payments—Delay in Making Refunds—Question by Mr. Callin. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T7

Mr. Callin: Could 1 ask a further supple­ be used as a general guide for future bor­ mentary question, Your Excellency, despite rowings. However, in so doing the Board what has been said? Would the Chairman indicated that it did not wish to put forward not agree that a Pay-As-You-Earn system, these loan periods as being of a mandatory with its self-balancing method of tax deduc­ nature, as it felt that local authorities should tion, would need far fewer staff to run it be permitted to exercise some discretion in than the present unwieldy system? relation to all the circumstances of the Mr. P. Radcliffe: I think, Your Excel­ peculiar purpose of their borrowings. In lency, all the questions that have been asked response to the part (2) of the hon. mem­ as supplementary questions, I answered in ber’s question, I have asked the Clerk of the first place — we are making an investi­ Tynwald to circulate copies of the letter gation. Can I say that as far as the Finance sent to all local authorities by the Board on Board is concerned, if we are making an this subject in April 1976, together with investigation we intend to make a thorough copies of the tables of loan periods to which investigation and not just deal with one I have referred. In view of these recent aspect of it. We have dealt with the situation events I do not feel that any other special at considerable length and discussed negative scale for local authorities on the Island income tax and I can assure hon. members should be established unless this hon. Court that we will be going further into this feels otherwise. matter and will be reporting back to them Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I thank the on the situation within the next few months. Chairman for his reply.

LOCAL AUTHORITY BORROWINGS — SUMMER! AND COMPLEX — LENGTH OF BORROWING PERIOD — PROVISIONS FOR PHYSICALLY QUESTION BY MR. CRINGLE. HANDICAPPED — QUESTION BY MRS. HANSON. The Governor: Question number 6, the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Cringle. The Governor: Question number 7. The hon. member for West Douglas, Mrs. Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I beg to Hanson. ask:— (1) Does the Local Government Board, when considering Petitions for pre­ Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I beg to sentation to this Court, have reference to ask:— What provisions have been incor­ any scale relating to the length of the porated in the new Summerland complex to borrowing period for similar schemes in the enable the physically handicapped to enjoy United Kingdom? (2) If so, will your Board the leisure facilities provided? make members aware of such scale and The Governor: The Chairman of the further be prepared to consider establishing Local Government Board. a scale for local authorities to suit the Island’s particular requirements? Mr. Anderson: Your Excelency, due to the difficult nature of the site and the ar­ The Governor: The Chairman of the rangements of the existing structure, it is Local Government Board. exceedingly difficult, at reasonable cost, to Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, in reply provide special facilities to enable the to the first part of the hon. member’s ques­ physically handicapped to gain access to tion and following an earlier question raised the leisure facilities of Summerland. This is by him in this hon. Court on the same not to say, however, that the physically subject, the Local Government Board wrote handicapped cannot get into the building to all local authorities on the Island in 1976 and enjoy these facilities. The hon. member inviting their comments on the scale of loan for West Douglas will know that whilst the periods on borrowings which applies in the existing entrance to the main entertainment United Kingdom and inquiring whether such area on the landward side of the promenade scales should be adopted in the Isle of Man. has a considerable number of steps, there is As a result of the favourable views received a ramp on the seaward-side entrance which from local authorities to this inquiry, and can be used, with assistance, by persons in there being no objections, the Board in­ wheel-chairs and also in perambulators. The formed the authorities that the scale should new complex will provide most of the enter­

Local Authority Borrowings—Length of Borrowing Period—Question by Mr. Cringle. — Summerland Complex—Provisions for Physically Handicapped—Question by Mrs. Hanson. T8 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 tainment facilities at the original 50 feet and between the two Boards as to the manner 53 feet levels, which are at the same level as in which the new scheme should be imple­ the main entrance. These will all be con­ mented, it is our wish that the Local tained in one area. There will be no upper Government Board will deal with applica­ floor tiers above that level, as in the original tions for financial assistance to erect all new building, therefore, access to these areas will dwellings and the Government Treasurer, on not arise and thereby cause inconvenience behalf of the Finance Board, will continue to the handicapped. The lower floors are to deal with applications for the purchase of fundamentally as originally built, but these existing properties. Both Boards will apply are used to provide more active sports in the same criteria to the consideration of an this area and the interests of the physically application and the amount of assistance, handicapped in a participatory way at least of course, being identical, being made under would be very limited. In view of the hon. the same scheme. In my view we should member’s question, I have asked for this improve substantially the financial assistance matter to be raised at the next meeting of available to Manx families to enable them the Summerland Co-ordination Committee to own their own homes and I am on at the end of this month and it will be fully record, on a number of occasions, as saying discussed. that I feel there should be a much greater Mrs. Hanson: M ay I thank the hon. grant element in the lower income groups, member for his reply. tapered off to loan facilities only, at market rates, for those at the other end of the scale. The Private Enterprise Scheme has BUILDING BY PRIVATE ENTERPRISE been allowed to decline because the amount SCHEME — IMPROVEMENT AND of grant which was fixed in 1962 has AMALGAMATION WITH HOUSING remained unchanged at £500. What was ADVANCES SCHEME — QUESTION regarded as realistic in 1962 cannot surely BY MR. CALLIN. be realistic 15 years later with the drop in the money values in that period. The The Governoir: Question number 8. The grant should now be somewhere between hon. member for Middle, Mr. Callin. £2,000 and £3,000. I make no concessions. Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, I beg to Your Excellency, to my view that we should ask:— What progress has been made, in be striving to help people to own their view of your statement during the Budget homes wherever possible and to provide debate— (1) to improve the financial assis­ much better financial assistance and incen­ tance available to the lower income groups tives for this purpose. There would be a in particular under the Building by Private reduction in the demand for local authority Enterprise Scheme; (2) towards any amal­ houses to rent. The continual calls on gamation of that scheme with the Housing Government deficiencies for grants and Advances Schemes? revenue charges and an increase in the The Governor: The Chairman of the home ownership — I see this as a wholly Local Government Board. desirable objective and one which I trust will have the full support of this hon. Court. Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, in reply For the assistance of hon. members in ap­ to this question from the hon. member for preciating the short-fall in existence, I have Middle, discussions have taken place with arranged for a table to be set out and the Finance Board with a view to the two circulated to hon. members and you will schemes he has mentioned being combined see, as you look down the various columns, into one scheme for financial assistance for in fact it is only the person who is earning building new dwellings and the purchase £2,250, in other words £43 a week, who of existing dwellings by qualified persons. While work on the preparation of the qualifies for a grant at all. In fact because scheme is now proceeding at the Board’s of the amount of income they then do not office and it is hoped that it can be agreed qualify for the loan repayments. Therefore, and brought into operation coincident with as far as they are concerned in the category the expiration of the Private Enterprise that should qualify for grant, it is a non- Scheme on 31st March 1978. While there event. I will not go through all these, each is some divergence of opinion in the past member can look at them individually, but

Building by Private Enterprise Scheme—Improvement and Amalgamation with Housing Advances Scheme—Question by Mr. Callin. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T9

it is interesting, Your Excellency, to note house ownership, could I ask what are the that a document that has been prepared by views of his Board? my office, as requested from the Board, to Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, first of look into the cost to Government over the all, in answer to my hon. colleague from years of the schemes of providing either a Peel, I agree that there has been a great house for the occupation of a person as a deal of speculation in the past on land, as tenant, or getting one under the Building far as building is concerned and it certainly by Private Enterprise Scheme, approximately has had a very disastrous effect as far as over the life of the house, the one that is inflation has been concerned. This is why let will cost Government something like it is my Board’s policy to encourage, to the £13,000 more than it does under the other very limit, the sort of item that we have scheme so there seems to me to be a great got on the Agenda a little later, from the need to look into this, especially at the Peel Commissioners, who themselves are lower end of the scale for the persons who, going to develop a site and it is our Board’s at the moment, occupy local authority wish that more local authorities would take houses and are just not capable of getting action of this sort that at the minimum cost on the lower rung of the ladder. I believe to the persons concerned building plots that we could save ourselves a lot of money could be made available to young Manx and could help a lot of people and I hope couples at the lowest possible cost. Actually there will be a fruitful outcome, in the near as far as my Board is concerned, I believe future, to the negotiations between the two that it is the unanimous view of our mem­ Boards in bringing forward a scheme which bers to seek, as far as possible, to have I believe could be a great benefit to home home ownership. I think where possibly ownership in this Island. there is a difference of opinion is in relation Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, could to selling existing local authority houses to I ask my Chairman a question? Is he not the tenants of those houses. I think this is aware of the fact that one of the problems possibly where we have a difference of facing this Court and the young person in opinion. As far as the home ownership is the Isle of Man is the very high cost of concerned, I believe it is the wish of every housing? Is he also not aware of the fact member of my Board, as it is mine, to see that speculation is still riding high? In fact, that as far as is humanly possible everybody there is a case I did notice recently which in the Isle of Man owns the roof over his I would like to bring to his attention own head. I do not think there is any and perhaps he knows about it and difference there, Your Excellency. perhaps he does not, and that is that a certain site in my constituency where the land was sold to a private citizen for ST. JOHN’S — CONSTRUCTION OF development for young Manx people to FOOTPATH ALONG EDGE OF GREEN occupy in housing. He promptly, having — QUESTION BY MR. ANDERSON. bought it as an individual, sold the land to a company of which he was also a director The Governor: Question number 9. The at an increased price. He then sold off plots hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. Anderson. on this land to another company, a Manx- based company, they are all Manxmen on it, Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to who promptly doubled the price of the land ask:— In view of the increasing concern for and the plots, so by the time these plot-; the safety of school children at St. John’s, came on the market they were actually four will your Board take immediate action, after times their original value. I do see no reason consultation with the Tynwald Arrange­ at all, I do not think my Chairman would, ments Committee, to construct a footpath no reason at all in giving financial assistance along the edge of the green, which will not unless we first of all overcome what I con­ only provide safer access to the school, but sider to be speculation justifying at least a also protect the green against further en­ 90 per cent, tax level. croachment, together with a pedestrian crossing immediately in front of the school? Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, could I ask the Chairman a supplementary, please? We The Governor: The Chairman of the are well aware of his personal views of Highway and Transport Board.

St. John’s—Construction of Footpath Along Edge of Green—Question by Mr. Anderson. T10 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, hon. local authority in this particular area, who members may recall that in this year’s green have made representations to us, as indeed book of Estimates provision was made by we have been in touch with the Board of the Highway Board for just such a road Education. As far as my hon. namesake’s improvement as is referred to by the hon. comments are concerned, I accept that every member in his question. However, certain member of this Court, not only the mem­ members of the Tynwald Arrangements bers of the Tynwald Arrangements Com­ Committee were unable to agree to the mittee, are quite properly concerned with Board's proposals and consequently this was advancing the cause of road safety, but the one of the items deleted from our Estimates proposals put forward by certain members in response to the Finance Board request of the Tynwald Arrangements Committee that there should be a considerable reduc­ would be the very negation of road safety. tion in our Estimates for the current year. I am quoting from the last letter we re­ The scheme proposed by the Highway Board ceived, sir, in which — and here I quote, conforms with the principles of highway “The Committee would be prepared to engineering and road safety and if agree­ accept a one metre wide footway constructed ment can be reached with the Tynwald over the present carriageway, curved to Arrangem ents Committee the Board will follow the existing line of the fairground.” include this particular improvement, a badly It would simply mean that you would be needed one, in its next year’s Estimates. I reducing the width of that road, a very busy am grateful to Your Excellency for per­ road at certain points, to seven metres and mitting me to table, in the well of the leaving another portion of it at nine metres Court, a plan of the proposed scheme drawn — the very negation of road safety and not by the Highway Board so that hon. members only that you would have running around may be aware of our particular suggestions the edge of the fairground a wobbly line in this connection. which would be a very serious hazard to all Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I would people who are using that particular road. thank the hon. member, but ask a supple­ I make no bones about the fact, sir, that mentary. Is he aware that there is really the proposal suggested in this letter, and Mr. terrific feeling — it is something which Speaker was one of those who was adamant I have not experienced in my sheading over that this was the kind of suggestion that anything, since I have been a member, on would have to be put forward, would be this issue. I would urge that the bodies completely unacceptable to any responsible concerned would try to sink their differences road authority. That is why I have tabled and try and protect the green as well, be­ in this Court, with your permission, Your cause, there is no doubt about it, at the Excellency, a plan, the one that we suggest moment it is being eroded by the traffic should be put into operation. I think with alongside it. the standard of work which is carried out The Speaker: Your Excellency, may I ask by the Highway Board, the whole area a supplementary? Would the hon. Chairman would be vastly improved when such a reassure the Court that the Tynwald Ar­ scheme would be finished and, more impor-: rangements Committee are as sympathetic tant still, it would be a great step forward to the idea of road safety as the Highway in the interests of road safety in this par­ Board? The Tynwald Arrangements Com­ ticular locality. mittee, would you also inform the Court, Mr. MacDonald: Could I ask a supple­ are very, very interested in the question of mentary, Your Excellency? Would the conservation and they have put forward a Chairman guarantee to the Court that in proposal which would meet both points of fact that they will get on with it this year view, which has not been accepted by the and not next year or the year after? Also, Highway Board, who simply want to drive is he aware of the fact that whilst the Tyn­ straight lines through the countryside? wald Arrangements Committee, of which I Mr. Kerruish: If I may reply to the hon. am no longer a member, may have their member who tabled the question initially, views, and rightly so, on what should be sir, I can assure him that we are well aware done at Tynwald Hill, had the housing of the concern of people in this particular scheme been developed where the Tyn­ district. We have been in touch with the wald Arrangements Committee suggested,

St. John’s—Construction of Footpath Along Edge of Green—Question by Mr. Anderson. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T il

pointing out at the time that this was going it is looking positively unsightly. I can to create a hazard problem to children assure the hon. Court that the Board are where the housing estate has been built, this anxious to be co-operative in this matter. situation probably would never have arisen. We have a duty to the travelling public of The houses should have been down in the this Island, to the children who live in village proper. the locality and we are most anxious that The Speaker: Your Excellency, could I we should put forward a scheme for the ask a further supplementary? Would the approval of the Tynwald Arrangements hon. Chairman of the Highway Board be Committee and Tynwald which will be more explicit in his use of the truth and acceptable environmentally in that particular would he, in fact, confirm that the Tynwald locality but, most important of all, which Arrangements Committee have suggested will be a considerable step forward in im­ that the width that he desires on his roads, proving road safety in St. John’s. I might the seven to nine metre variation that he perhaps conclude, sir, by referring to the refers to, can be obtained by using a section hon. member for Peel, by saying that we from the other side of the road, which is have no funds for this particular project at readily available, that the Tynwald Arrange­ the moment. It is just possible that if the ments Committee never asked for an irregu­ Millennium Committee manage to obtain a lar pattern whatsoever, they asked for a flow very large vote from the Finance Board — of green in keeping with the old tradition, (laughter) — then, out of the goodness of and would he accept that generally there has their heart, they may throw £20,000 to the been an attempt by the Tynwald Arrange­ Highway Board when we will certainly give ments Committee to meet not only the re­ our scheme top priority. quirements of safety but to preserve, for posterity, a green which most Island people cherish? CONTROL OF EMPLOYMENT — Mr. Kerruish: First of all, Your- Excel­ POLICY OF BOARD OF SOCIAL lency, I am rather surprised that my name­ SECURITY — QUESTION BY sake, who is a kinsman of mine, would MR. QUIRK. suggest that I would try to mislead the Court The Governor: Question number 10. The on this particular issue. I do not wish to hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. Quirk. use the floor of Tynwald as a forum for Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, I beg to hammering out differences at Committee ask:— What is your Board’s policy in level and I am not going to go down to such relation to applications for permits under depths as Mr. Speaker has descended to the Control of Employment Act 1975 in on this particular issue. I can assure him respect of young persons who are not Isle that the Highway Board have looked at the of Man workers but who are residing on whole matter of road safety particularly and the Island with their parents? highway construction in this matter very carefully. The suggestion that there should The Governor: The Chairman of the be some alteration, other than a lay-by, done Board of Social Security. on the west side of the road is completely Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, the work unacceptable on road safety grounds. I permit applications are dealt with by the would emphasise, sir, that in the letter Control of Employment Committee of the signed by the Clerk Assistant of Tynwald Board of Social Security on which I sit as and emanating from the Tynwald Arrange­ Chairman. I can assure the hon. asker of ments Committee, they state: “The Com­ the question that the Control of Employ­ mittee would be prepared to accept a one ment Committee, when dealing with work metre wide footpath constructed over the permit applications in respect of young present carriageway” — that is narrowing persons, treat each one with a great deal of the present road — “curved to follow the sympathy. I can certainly tell him that it is existing line of the fairground.” I wonder never the intention of my Committee ever when Mr. Speaker was last alongside the to be responsible for making it necessary sacred bit of Manx soil, because one has for young people to be separated from their only to go and see that the green is getting parents. However, I would point out that a eroded every day. In fact in certain points child of a Manx worker is not exempt from

Control of Employment—Policy of Board of Social Security—Question by Mr. Quirk. T i2 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 the provisions of the Act and whereas most rights applies in the case of the Manx if the of the children not born in the Island, but Manx wish to work in the European Econo­ living here with their parents, will qualify in mic Community? The Manxmen in this their own right. The children of those in Court, whose grandparents on both sides employment on 1st June 1976, who were are pure Manx, are not entitled to work at under 18, are entitled to a work permit as all in the European Economic Community of right. countries without a permit. They are Mr. Quirk: May I thank the hon. Chair­ allowed to work, but with a permit, and man, Your Excellency, for his assurances this, all we are doing is seeking the same that children of non-isle of Man workers conditions for the workers coming in. will be treated very fairly. I would like to ask a supplementary and ask him if the same sympathy, as he calls it, would be PRIVATE NURSING HOMES — given to young people, who have actually SUPERVISION — QUESTION BY obtained work permits here, who go away MR. WARD. and wish to return? I wonder whether your The Governor: Question number 11. The sympathy still extends to a child who goes hon. member for South Douglas, Mr. Ward. away for a while and comes back and seeks work on the Isle of Man? Mr. Ward: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Health Mr. Cringle: I think it would be fair to Services Board:— Will you inform this hon. say that my Committee would treat, as I Court what supervisory powers your Board say, with sympathy any application whatso­ exercises over private nursing homes, par­ ever if it is in relation to maintaining a ticularly in relation to provision of adequate family as a family unit. safety measures, and staffing at night, and Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, could I ask how often does your Board carry out in­ a supplementary? Is it ever the intention of spections of the facilities offered? the Board to restore the fundamental rights The Governor: The Vice-Chairman of the of young persons who were resident with Health Services Board. their parents on the appointed day and whose parents were in work on the ap­ Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, private pointed day, or must another nine years’ nursing homes are required to be registered probation and surveillance occur before under the terms of section 24 of the Local they have equal rights as well as being equal Government Board Act 1949, and condi­ taxpayers in law? tions under which regbtration is made or continued are set out in that section and Mr. Cringle: It is somewhat difficult, Your sections 25, 26, 27 and 28. The functions Excellency, to say that a child who was previously exercised by the Local Govern­ born here and becomes immediately an ment Board under this legislation were Isle of Man worker as such, that his family transferred to the Health Services Board and all immediately become Manx in all under section 31 of the National Health respects and exempt from the work permit Service (Isle of Man) A ct of 1963. T he1 control. I would say, at the present time, it supervisory powers given cover all aspects is not the intention of my Board to make of their operations with the exception of the these people exempt from the work permit fees charged. Similarly transferred to the regulations. Health Services Board were the provisions Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, may I ask a of bye-laws made by the Local Government further supplementary? Is the continuation Board in 1950, relating particularly to the of this policy a retrospective denial of records required to be kept. Every keeper fundamental rights and a constitutional or prospective keeper of a nursing home is issue for a democratic government? issued with a copy of the recommended code of practice approved by the Board in Mr. Cringle: I do not think it is, Your January, 1974, which sets out most explicitly Excellency, no. the conditions the Board expect to be ob­ Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, could served if registration is to be continued. I ask the Chairman is he aware of the fact Paragraph (a) of these stipulates that “the that this same sort of restriction on human home must provide for each patient efficient

Private Nursing Homes—Supervision—Question by Mr. Ward. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T13 nursing care, and for this purpose employ in the Isle of Man, and of course it is an by day and night suitably qualified and com­ awful hard thing to put your finger on. I petent staff in numbers which are adequate, would like to ask the Vice-Chairman if it having regard to the size of the home would be possible for her Board — I know, and the number and condition of the obviously, she cannot answer some of these patients received there.” Paragraph (h), I questions now — would it be possible for her quote: “Take adequate precautions against at another Tynwald to give us a statement the risk of fire and accidents, having on this? regard in particular to the conditions of Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, in reply such patients as are received there.” In to the question about fees, the Health Ser­ relation to the latter, these include visits vices Board have no control whatsoever from the Chief Fire Officer and his staff, about fees. The controls we have are the and particular insistence is made on imple­ conduct of a nursing home and the recom­ mentation of the recommendations. Com­ mended code of practice, which lays down prehensive inspections are regularly made by suitable attention, cleanliness, laundry, night the Medical Officer of Health accompanied and day cover and so on. As regards the by the Board’s Director of Nursing Services, fees there is no legislation and no regula­ and reports submitted to the Board. The tions to control them. period between inspections is variable, but as a rule it is expected that each home will Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Your receive at least two formal inspections a Excellency? As has been pointed out twice year. In addition, unannounced and informal now by the Vice-Chairman of the Health calls may be made in relation to some par­ Services Board, there is no legislation ticular aspect. The Board’s requirements for governing fees. There is also no legislation staffing levels day and night were arrived at governing payment to staff and the quali­ with the practical assistance of officials of fications of staff, I believe. I wonder if the the United Kingdom Department of Health Board has any intention in this session, or and Social Security. any other, to bring in legislation to govern the qualifications and the wages paid in Mr. Ward: Your Excellency, may I thank relation to the Whitley scale and the charges the hon. member for her reply, and in the Health Services Board have in their thanking her, could I say that since tabling homes. this question several people havev got in touch with me and there is an anxiety — Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, may I perhaps I could put it at no more than that ask a supplementary? Would the hon. Vice- at the moment — on several points which I Chairman of the Health Services Board not think to the general public need some clari­ agree that the demand for this type of fication. I wonder with your permission, sir, home far exceeds the facilities available? like to ask — although the Vice-Chairman Would she not agree that if we do start to has given a comprehensive reply, I am not interfere into spheres in which we are not perfectly satisfied because I do not think, in concerned, that it could inhibit the develop­ my opinion, that the inspections are carried ment of private nursing homes which are out enough and are thorough enough. If I so much in demand in the Island, and they could ask her two supplementary questions, are voluntary? sir? What control, if any, is exercised by Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I am sorry your Board on fees and charges made by I cannot agree with the last remark from private nursing homes to their patients or the Chairman of the Local Government the relatives of the patients? Is your Board Board, but if we are prepared to sit here satisfied that the machinery is adequate to and because there is some inhibition that ensure, with all the “gobbledy gook” of the these people might withdraw their services, Act, that the patients are getting value for I think this is completely wrong. I think the fees paid with regard to the right type there should be a statement to this Court of meals, the skilled attention, bright and at some future date, and of course we have adequate accommodation, and being kept already, even on this small question, brought warm and clean, and above all, safe? This out the anomaly that I still do not know may seem a bit innocuous, but I believe who controls fees. Let us be honest about there is an anxiety among the general public this, we are talking in terms for people who

Private Nursing Homes—Supervision—Question by Mr. Ward. T14 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 perhaps in some cases are lying in inade­ alone or in conjunction with another Board, quate accommodation, and the fees come intend to renew the lease currently held by to anything between £50 and £100 and £120 Barlow, Barlow and Calderbank to extract per week. I think the general public should gravel at the Point of Ayre? know who pays and who decides what the Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, at the fees are. present moment in time no application for Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, may I the renewal of, or extension of the lease reply to the hon. member for South Douglas currently covering the removal of aggregate first. Nursing homes are a private business, from the foreshore at the Point of Ayre has and the Health Services Board has no been received by the Board. I can assure the control whatsoever over fees. The nurses hon. member that in the event of such employed in private nursing homes have a an application being received, the matter private contract between that nurse and the will receive my Board’s usual very serious private company running the home. I can consideration. quite understand the concern that the hon. Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, member for South Douglas has over this may I ask a supplementary? If these ap­ situation. In reply to the hon. member for proaches should ever be made, would the East Douglas, he mentioned the scales of Chairman of the Harbour Board assure this salaries; I have already answered that; as it hon. Court that the Board would have full is a private contract between one person consultation with all the parties concerned and another individual, we have no super­ in the area, and also seek professional visory powers over that. In reply to the hon. advice regarding the possibility, or even member for Glenfaba, yes, indeed he is the probability, that gravel extraction has quite correct. There are not enough private hastened coast erosion in that particular nursing homes in the Island to contain the area? situation. A fortnight ago, a private nursing agency registered in the Island; this might Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, in help because now people will be able to reply to that question, the latter part of it nurse their sick in their own homes and I cannot accept because for the last 50 years pay for a nurse to come in and give that experts have been looking at this. All the attention. experts say no, but the presumed experts, the personal experts think the opposite. Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, could Universities have looked at this for years. I ask the Vice-Chairman — is it not a fact At the moment the question is — we have that in these homes the people either go in asked one gentleman that if we do some­ of their own free will knowing the situation, thing, what he wants us to do, and we know or their families happily put them in — un­ this will affect the coastline, will he give us fortunately in lots of cases — knowing carte blanche cover that he will not hold us exactly what the situation is? It is not wrong responsible, and this is the man who created for the Government to start interfering in the situation, and the situation really does family affairs when the bulk of the people not exist. that are put in are put in by families? Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, may I ask The Governor: Hon. members, this is a supplementary? Would the Chairman of turning into a debate. I suggest we move the Harbour Board not agree that, in fact, on to the next question. very little gravel has been extracted over the last few years? POINT OF AYRE — Mr. MacDonald: I fully agree with that, LEASE FOR EXTRACTION OF practically nothing. GRAVEL — QUESTION BY MR. J. N. RADCLIFFE. The Governor: Question number 12. The BLIND PERSONS—FREE ’BUS TRAVEL hon. member for Ayre, Mr. J. N. Radcliffe. — QUESTION BY MRS. HANSON. Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Y our Excellency, I The Governor: Question number 13. The beg to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man hon. member for West Douglas, Mrs. Harbour Board:— Does your Board, either Hanson.

Point of Ayre—Lease for Extraction of Gravel—Question by Mr. J. N. Radcliffe. — Blind Persons—Free ’Bus Travel—Question by Mrs. Hanson. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T15

Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I beg to permitting concessionary fares for use by ask the Chairman of the Steering Committee disabled ex-servicemen? on Transport:— Will Isle of Man National Transport Limited, of which you are a Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, may I director, give consideration to the issue of ask a supplementary? Would the hon. free passes to the limited number of blind Chairman not consider it would be far persons using the ’buses? easier if they did not take any fares at all? (Laughter.) Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I am very happy to advise the Court and the hon. Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I would member for West Douglas that the directors say with regard to anomalies in the con­ of the National ’Bus Company have agreed cessionary fares that already there are many that all blind persons who apply to the people that do fall in this category and have National Transport shall receive a pass applied to the Board of Social Security, to which will enable them to travel at any the Administrator, and the Administrator in time on the ’buses to any place as many turn, with the general manager of the com­ times at they want. It was considered in the pany — there are people other than retire­ early stages that it was thought perhaps that ment or old age pensioners who do enjoy these particular concessions, but they are blind people should have the same con­ cessionary rights as elderly people, for generally treated as individual cases. I would be happy to say to the hon. member for example travel at half-fare. Then, on re­ flection, it was thought that a blind person West Douglas, Mr. Kermeen, that we will pursue this with the Board of Social Secu­ has difficulty when entering, particularly rity, and incidentally, the Finance Board, cp.e-man ’buses where the driver is also collecting the money, there is difficulty, and too, because we work on a kind of block it was thought that as these handicapped grant with the present way that we are people are comparatively few, it would be going, but we will be pursuing this. With better in the interests of all concerned if regard to the hon. member Mr. Radcliffe, the blind people — why we say that they and the disabled ex-servicemen, this matter, should apply is because the ’bus company too, I understand has already received active are not aware who they are so it is necessary consideration by the Board of Social Secu­ for them to make application. Some of rity, and I understand that we in National them, some blind people, of course, are Transport are aware of this. We will give house-bound and do not use ’buses, but all this active consideration so that the desirable those that wish to use the ’buses, if they cases who fall into this category will be apoly, will be issued with a free pass which able to receive concessions. I would not will enable them to travel at any time to like to go so far as to say that the con­ any place. cessions would be as generous as they are to blind people, because it is true to Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, may I say that many people who, although they ask a supplementary question? I wonder if are disabled and ex-servicemen, they are, the company, of which the hon. member is from a financial point of view, considerably a director, will extend the consideration and well off. There are some of them — I am to that intent would he consult with the not putting them, all in that category — but Chairman and members of the Board of I do say that these are categories of people Social Security with a view to removing that are receiving active consideration, and certain anomalies over the question of con­ we will pursue it and expedite this matter cessionary fares? The sort of thing like, so that those unfortunate people with small whereas a person in receipt of retirement means may receive generous concessions; benefit may get a concession, a person in I will give that undertaking to the hon. receipt of an invalidity pension cannot. I member. think if they would give consideration to Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, may I raise have a consistent policy over this matter of a point of clarification? I see it has re­ concessionary fares. ferred to the hon. member of Council as a Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, may director of this company. I understood that I ask a supplementary? Would the hon. the Steering Committee were withdrawing Chairman of the company also consider from this company. Is this not so?

Blind Persons—Free ’Bus Travel—Question by Mrs. Hanson. T16 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

Mr. Nivison: It is not part of the question figures, he advises us, were not available nor related in any way to the question. To for comparison for the period that the the hon. member for Garff, Dr. Mann, I Manx Electric Railway was running from would say that the answer to the question Laxey to Ramsey, but the figures that are is, in fact, the Chairman of the company, available are from the 1st January to the and it is true to say that the Steering 30th September, and do indicate on the Committee of Tynwald are gradually with­ Douglas-Onchan-Laxey-Ramsey route that drawing from the company. Four have left, the numbers of passengers carried in 1976 as a matter of fact; Mr. Bell left at the were 383,246, and the numbers carried in Election time for certain reasons. Major 1977, 386,977, an increase of 3,731. That Crellin left because he wished to go for route was re-routed and it did take certain other reasons, because he was a member of people associated with the Douglas traffic Finance Board. Quite recently at the general that was going via certain parts of Douglas. meeting of the company the hon. member I am advised that disregarding the people for Peel, Mr. MacDonald, and the hon. w'ho are travelling in and around Douglas, member for Council, Mr. Kerruish, were up that the full length of the route, that is for re-election and did not wish to be re­ Douglas to Ramsey, would be something in elected. It is my intention to withdraw from the order of 4 per cent, less than the the company as soon as possible, but it was previous year, something like 4 per cent, thought that it would be quite wrong for less. I regret that I have not any further them all tc come out and to leave the out­ information. I have endeavoured to get this side members. Incidentally, Mr. Radcliife, information but the figures were not avail­ the hon. - member for Michael, was elected able from the former company. You do by Tynwald to that Board. It is the intention recall that the National ’Bus Company have of particularly myself, being connected with only been connected with this service for the Steering Committee, to get off at the this one year. So I regret that it would most convenient time. appear something like 4 per cent. less than Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I thank the previous year. the hon. member, and I am most grateful Mr. Callin: I would like to say, Your for his reply. Excellency, that I would like to thank the Chairman for his reply. I thought I had good reason for asking the question, ’BUS SERVICE — PASSENGERS but I am afraid his reply, as he will appre­ CARRIED BETWEEN DOUGLAS ciate, has not been a great deal of help. AND RAMSEY — QUESTION BY (Laughter.) MR. CALLIN. Mr. Nivison: Well, I must say, if I may, The Governor: Question number 14. The I did not know really what the question was hon. member for Middle, Mr. Callin. after, otherwise I might have given him what he wanted. (Laughter.) Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of the National ’Bus Com­ pany:— How do the ’bus passenger figures CAPITAL ADVANCES compare between Douglas and Ramsey for FOR GOVERNMENT SCHEMES — the period the Manx Electric Railway QUESTION BY MR. CRINGLE. operated this year with the same period in 1976? The Governor: Question number 15 is down for written answer and the answer has Mr. Nivison: I am advised, Your Excel­ been circulated. lency, by the general manager that the National ’Bus Company did not receive any Question:— statistics on earnings, mileage, or passenger The hon. member for Rushen, Mr. journeys from the former undertakers of Cringle, to ask the Chairman of the Finance these companies. (Laughter.) Yes, I smiled Board:— (1) W hat is the total am ount now at that one myself. (Laughter.) There are outstanding on capital advances for Govern­ many things to smile about because the ment schemes? (2) What sums are now general manager was the general manager outstanding on capital advances for Govern­ of one of the former undertakings. The ment schemes— (a) on housing; (b) on

’Bus Services—Passengers Carried Between Douglas and Ramsey—Question by Mr. Callin. — Capital Advances for Government Schemes—Question by Mr. Cringle. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T17

education; and (c) on health and social Court this year I spoke of the difficulties in security? (3) Will you set out the amount establishing priorities for expenditure. I which Tynwald is committed to find by way spoke of the temptations which befall all of of deficiency payments for each of the next us to project particular schemes as being of 60 years in respect of each of the above the utmost importance. I spoke also of my amounts? pleasure at the attitude of Boards of Answer:— Government who in general showed us their main concern was for the overall welfare of Total amount outstanding on capital ad­ the Isle of Man. It was then, as it is now, vances for Government schemes— my conviction that political and financial (1) £37,285,300 at 31st March 1977 stability is essential to maintain economic of above, amount outstanding on capital growth, to create more job opportunities in schemes for— what is now a sober employment climate, to broaden the range of job opportunities (2)(a) Housing: £3,133,547 and to seek to maintain a standard of living —Local Government Board in the Isle of Man at least equivalent to £13,787,828 that in the United Kingdom. I asked all —Loans to Individuals departments of Government constantly to (b) Education: £3,634,493 review their levels of expenditure, their levels of staffing, to ensure that only those (c) Health and Social Security: £3,043,861 services that are essential are expanded in (3) Education, Health and Social Security order to ensure that the growth in public have loan periods less than 60 years, in spending is kept within the limits of the fact some are only five-year periods and growth of the economy. I asked Boards to many are ten-year ones. Consequently I remember the revenue implications of pro­ cannot set out the amount which Tyn­ jected capital schemes, bearing in mind that wald is committed to find by way of increasing prosperity in the Island should be deficiency payments for each of the next reflected in equitable distribution of improve­ 60 years in respect of each of the above ment in living standards between all sections amounts, but I can inform the hon. of the community. In order that the tax­ member of the estimated loan charges payer should keep as much of his money as in respect of each for 1977/78 and this possible in his pocket, the Government must charge will continue to be borne by be constrained to take less, which means Government until individual schemes that the Government must accept con­ are fully repaid— straints on the improvement and expansion (a) Housing -— Local Govern­ of services, to prevent the situation arising ment Board: £386,237 where the levels of borrowing might be (b) Education: £527,752 forced upwards to sustain insatiable demands for public spending. It is evident that un­ (c) Health and Social Security: £486,075. employment this winter will be higher than we would wish to see it, and additional BILLS SIGNED — REQUISITE Government spending has been authorised SIGNATURES OBTAINED. by Finance Board to create more job oppor­ tunities and reduce the level of unemploy­ The Governor: The four Bills listed ment during the winter, although I am sure under item 2 of the Agenda have received members will agree that long-term job signatures from a quorum of both Branches. creation is the truly desirable objective. At the same time that we are facing what is STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN OF described in the Island as high unemploy­ FINANCE BOARD. ment, but in the rest of Europe would be regarded as low at the present time, there The Governor: That brings us, hon. are industries which are unable to attract members, to item number 5. I call on all the labour they require. Whilst the the Chairman of Finance Board, Mr. P. quality and quantity of labour available will Radcliffe. never equate with the demand, it is sur­ Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, when prising that with over 800 unemployed — I made my maiden speech in this hon. now I understand, nearer 900 — there are

Bills Signed—Requisite Signatures Obtained. — Statement by Chairman of Finance Board. T 18 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 unfilled jobs in industry. This is an un­ ensure that our priorities are right. Are we desirable situation and the Board of Social prepared to be financially responsible? Will Security are examining the situation to see we discharge that responsibility if we ap­ if improvements can be made. It is also prove some of the really desirable schemes evident that the 1977 summer tourist season as opposed to those which are essential, and can only be described as moderate, and we thereby delay schemes which are really await with interest the final figures of necessary? I realise that some members will arrivals and the result of a tourist survey say that Government should provide all our undertaken by the Treasury on behalf of present services, but as a family makes its the Tourist Board. This survey will provide choice as to how it allocates its own income, valuable detailed information on tourist so must Government. Long-term planning likes and dislikes, their spending patterns, is therefore essential. It is estimated that et cetera. Tourism is, of course, a constantly the Manx Electric Railway is likely to cost changing field. Today tourists expect better the taxpayer £200,000 in 1977/78. A report standards of accommodation, transport and before us today indicates a revenue cost of entertainment, and we must be certain that £170,000 for the first year’s operation of the we are providing attractions the tourists steam railway, if we are prepared to spend want, but that we at the same time continue a £i million purchasing it. It is suggested to provide for our resident population’s that Manx Radio could cost us £75,000 per needs. Our resident population, as you all annum. At the Annual General Meeting last know, continues to grow, and the fact that week of the Government owned ’bus com­ we are today considering various schemes to pany, it was announced that the loss for the relieve unemployment reflects our deter­ difficult first six months of operation last mination to protect the Island residents. winter was £150,000. This adds up to Not only must we try to ensure jobs for approximately £600,000 per annum, a sum them, but we are also to provide adequate in excess of the capital cost of a new social health, education, recreation and social security home for the elderly in, say, services for them, and this must not be Ramsey, a sum which could be used towards sacrificed at the expense of investment and the desirable replacement of Mannin In­ the provision of uneconomic services, the firmary and parts of Ballamona Hospital, a value of which is questionable. Next month sum of which is more than the annual costs all social security benefits are to be in­ of maintaining both the White Hoe and the creased with further additions in the sup­ Jane Crookall combined, and double the> plementary benefit rate over and above cost of the school health service, library what is paid in the United Kingdom. The service, and children’s service as currently estimated cost of the increase in a full year operated by the Board of Education. These is £1,912,000, and the proposed scheme for are all services which benefit our residents increased child benefits to take effect next throughout the year. Tynwald, as you are April will add some £800,000 to the expendi­ well aware, is now embarking on a new ture bill. Within the 1977/78 Budget a parliamentary year. Many schemes will come balance of £898,000 was provided, and I will before this Court for approval, of which point out that this amount of money has many will have considerable merit, whilst already been committed. Additional revenue others may have costs which, in some cases, expenditure approved by the Finance Board will considerably outweigh any material or in the current year is £1,150.000 which is aesthetic benefits. I would ask all members made up partly by the £635,000 in respect of this hon. Court to consider the long-term of the up-rating of social security benefits aspect of all new schemes of expenditure from November 1977, which is the subject very carefully, and to be mindful of the fact of a motion later in today’s Agenda, and that we must provide and care for our own partly in respect of pay and salary awards. population all the year round, providing In addition, there are other pay awards in them with all the essentials of the latter the pipeline such as the Government manual part of the 20th century, rather than dissi­ workers’ award yet to be agreed, which will pating our resources on projects which are have to be met out of current revenue. It dubious. I have not overlooked that Govern­ is essential that we, as the elected repre­ ment income depends on the prosperity of sentatives and Government of the Island, the Island’s economy, that Government

Statement by Chairman of Finance Board. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T19

assistance to the various sectors of the com­ The Governor: I do not accept your munity should have as its aim the improve­ point, Mr. Chairman of Finance Board. ment of productivity, and let me emphasise Please proceed, Mr. Speaker. that point’, the improvement of productivity, and the strengthening of the long-term pros­ The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— pects of the economy. Before this meeting of Tynwald ends, all hon. members will be WHEREAS in November 1976, as the aware of the need for establishing priorities outcome of a General Election, the Manx for both capital and revenue expenditure. people clearly indicated their unwillingness These priorities must take account of our to accept the apathy and complacency of responsibilities to those less fortunate in the the previous administration and elected a Government pledged to support a progres­ Isle of Man, and may include the care of sive programme embracing such essential the children; the health of the nation; the provisions as— care of the elderly and the poor; the pro­ vision of special types of housing; the pre­ The maintenance of a high standard of servation of the environment. There is little law and order. in my mind to be gained in the long-term The continuation of a low tax pattern. from public spending on ailing industries or The preservation of high standards of on extravagant projects which are and al­ education and social provision. ways will be non-viable. I am certain you all A due regard for the cost of living in agree with me that expenditure of this type the Isle of Man. will only succeed in cutting living standards, The development of the basic industries and I, personally, cannot see that, making of farming, fishing and tourism. us one of the most popular Tynwalds in the The encouragement of financial institu­ history of the Isle of Man. tions and light industries in such a manner as to ensure the fullest measure of employment. POLICY OF TYNWALD — The improvement of transport links EMERGENCY RESOLUTION with the Island and the retention of — AMENDED AND PASSED. the remaining pattern of unique rail and tramway systems. The Speaker: Your Excellency, I rise The preservation of the environment. under the provisions of Standing Order 54(5) The preservation and encouragement of to move a matter of urgent public im­ interest in items of historical and portance, and that is increasing public cultural account. concern with regard to Government policy, and the operation of certain sections of BE IT RESOLVED : the administration be discussed and in the That the achievement of these objectives still remains the policy of Tynwald. light of the Chairman of Finance Board’s statement this morning I would believe it to I would emphasise that I am grateful to you be imperative that we should be able to and the Court for allowing me to proceed inform the public as to where we stand. I with this resolution. I feel that there is so move. increasing public concern with regard to many aspects of our administration, and that Mr. Delaney: I would like to second. concern must be allayed, the public must be The Speaker: May I be joined by four reassured as to what we are doing. A year members of like mind? has passed since the present House of Keys was elected, and it is a year that has shown Four other members stood in their places. many weaknesses in our form of govern­ The Governor: Is it with the leave of the ment. For example, repeated declarations of Court that this motion shall now be debated, policy which have been completely ignored hon. members? Is that agreed? by certain sections of the administration. I consider it is timely and appropriate to It was agreed. reassure the electorate of this Island that Mr. P. Radcliffe: May I, Your Excellency, we are the same people they voted for a get one point clarified. I would interpret year ago with the same broad policies, and this as a financial resolution. with now, as then, a positive determination

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. T20 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 to do something about it. The resolution to put the economy in jeopardy if we which I have circulated to hon. members is, indulge in such frivolities. What he has in fact, such a document. I would suggest failed to tell us this morning is just where that today, even more than when I penned we stand at the moment. We have been told it yesterday, it should be discussed bearing of increases in expenditure, we have not in mind points where you read page 2 of been given even the final figures of last our Chancellor’s statement which must be year’s trading yet. We do know that with an discussed and clarified in this Court. You overall Budget figure of some £50,360,000, will find that this resolution is a very simple representing a 12 per cent., broadly, in­ statement of fact which I would venture to crease, we are running in advance of that suggest very few of you will hestitate to figure at 15 per cent., and that this is a subscribe to in respect of its general outline. steady monthly running. There is no ground Perhaps if you would permit me to go for complacency in the fact that we are up quickly through it with you — first of all, two per cent., despite the fact that perhaps let us look at the maintenance of a high we have not enjoyed the most successful of standard of law and order. There is a feeling years, we nevertheless had a fairly good throughout the Island that our administra­ year. Let us be thankful for that when all tion is beginning to go a little soft on this around us people are grumbling that they question of law and order. We have to recall have had very bad years. What I am saying that here we have accepted a line that there here is that in presenting a financial picture should, for instance, be community service. and in putting forward a financial warning, But where has that issue got to? It is lost if you like, we should have the fullest figures in the archives. We have accepted a line and we certainly have not had them to that we retain the birch. Is that line being support the contention of the Chairman that eroded in our courts? The public will sug­ there is little to be gained in the long term gest that it is, and if it is.— and I do not from, public spending on ailing industries — say that it is necessarily so — but if it is, and I assume that he is referring to trans­ hew and in what form is it being eroded? port systems — or on extravagant projects Yesterday I happened to pick up “The which are and always will be non-viable; Telegraph”, and 1 looked at crime statistics expenditure of this type will only succeed which portrayed a comparison between 1960 in cutting living standards. There are many and 1976 in the United Kingdom. That of us who would not agree with that point. comparison relating to woundings showed The preservation of high standards of educa­ an increase of 414 per cent, from 14,000 to tion and social provision, certainly this is 72.000 in that period. Rapes had risen from something we subscribe to. The Chairman 515 to 1,093, 112 per cent, of an increase; himself, in his statement, made reference to robberies, 2,000 to 9,000, 351 per cent, in­ it in his final paragraphs, but contrast this crease; break-ins, 151,000 to 514,000, 240 statement with the resolutions passed in this per cent, of an increase; thefts from vehicles, Court earlier this year where we called upon 92.000 to 241,000, 160 per cent, of an in­ the Finance Board to cut the cost of living crease; criminal damage, 4,000 to 48,000, by providing support for a fuel scheme for 910 per cent, of an increase. That is the those in need, and we got a response which pattern of law and order that has developed necessitated a further resolution which was in an adjoining territory; I am sure it is not passed unanimously in this Court, put on the intention of this Court that we are going by the hon. member for Douglas North, but to permit law and order to deteriorate in we have no fuel scheme for the needy, as this Island and allow such a pattern to far as I am aware, in operation today as we become the accepted norm here. The next go into the winter. Is this the sort of point is simply one that I think we all sub­ response we are going to get to a Tynwald scribe to, the continuation of a low tax policy declaration? What I am saying here pattern. It is essential for the economy, but is, yes, by all means let us make the social what the Chairman has told us this morning provisions, all of the social provisions that as he fired shots across the bow of sup­ are essential because we can do it and we porters of the Manx Electric Railway, the can do it within the same general frame­ supporters of the steam railway and sup­ work of low taxation that he was talking porters of every project that he would about earlier this morning. A due regard of consider undesirable, is that we are going the cost of living in the Isle of Man — this

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T21 is something again we would all subscribe and the Island cannot afford to go on to, but we realise that the cost of living in pouring money into such, shall I say, the Isle of Man can only be brought down regrettable schemes as the Liverpool dock if some of those wild schemes that the scheme, and support into the Steam Packet Finance Board considers, such as rofl-on, Company and at the end fail to get the roll-off ferries, are brought into operation. provision it needs to maintain a tourism The only way you can cut costs of living which has got to be developed and which I here is to reduce the cost of transport, that know the Tourist Board will wish to see is the main factor, and when you do that developed. Every one of us I am sure, will you are on your way, but let us hope that strive to the idea that we have got to get in the course of today or tomorrow’s debate in and revitalise transport to the Island and there will be the fullest support for a project so ensure that that lifeline is going to be for which we have waited years, to enable a strong enough one to sustain us. The us to cut the cost of living. Then, there is preservation of the environment; the hon. the development of the basic industries of member for Ramsey, Mr. Swales, has fought farming, fishing and tourism. Who will deny on this issue for a considerable time. This that these are, in fact, the objectives of us Court has supported him and today I take all? We want to see these achieved; the the opportunity of congratulating the Chair­ encouragement of financial institutions and man of the Local Government Board for light industries in such a manner as to what I regard as the wonderful job done by ensure the fullest measure of employment. them in connection with the Windscale Your Excellency, we are for the second inquiry. This I think was a superb exercise, year embarking on a programme of pro­ but, hon. members, let us recall something viding employment for the unemployed, of the criticism that emanated from the absolutely essential. I hope, in the course judge presiding over that inquiry. As I of this Tynwald, we will find ways and recollect, he asked where was the Island’s means of getting away from palliatives. I monitoring system; where in fact was the do not want to see the constant round each evidence that we had done anything to year of making provision for unemployed protect ourselves and why were we not when industry in every form in this Island, embarking on this sort of exercise? Why suitably encouraged, can do the job for us. were we depending on other sources, and Take off some of the punitive taxes on the quite obviously the reply was, we have self-employed and let them help with the always depended on United Kingdom sources economy. This is the sort of role I am sure of information. It is equally obvious today the Court would wish to see them embark that a business of the stature of British on. Your Excellency, the next is the im­ Nuclear Fuels with the sort of capital in­ provement of transport links with the Island volvement that they have, can contrive to and the retention of the remaining pattern twist the truth in such a manner that even of unique rail and tramway systems. For Government departments accept it and sell years the Island and its tourism have been it to us as being legitimate, when we know bedevilled by inadequate transport links. full well it has now been proved that the Let us face it, at the moment a businessman half of it is a tissue of lies. In looking at wishing to get on and off this Island has to our environment we have to be conscious of spend two days in the process. Is this the the need, I would say, for doing something way that people run businesses today? Are of our own monitoring as well as following our air services adequate for an Island’s and fully supporting the Local Government needs? I do not consider they are. Are our Board in their endeavours to ensure that sea-going services adequate? They are so everything at Windscale is as we would have outdated that they are totally inadequate. it. Finally, Your Excellency, the preservation Let us not accept the view point, expressed and encouragement of interest of historical by Chairman of Finance on this, that we and cultural accounts; we got off to a fairly must be complacent and we must not em­ good start last year in this field of activity, bark on schemes which some would regard and I hope that this Court will maintain the as cutting across the bows, if you like, of impetus that where we have a richness of old established businesses. I think the hon. history we make the most use of it. Other member, Mrs. Hanson, made the point, we people have emphasised this point before, are in business and the Island is in business, people who have no history, seek it; here

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. T22 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

we have this richness, we ignore it. And I are going to look at things. Our first con­ am sure this Court would not wish to ignore sideration should not be just to save money, it or the basic culture on which it is founded. of course that is very important, but that So, Your Excellency, I put forward objec­ ties up with the other side of the coin which tives which I believe are commendable, if is that we are here, in my mind, in the first you like, to the big majority of members. place to ensure the greatest possible pros­ I am saying that as it is timely in the view perity for the people of the Island and, of of the Chairman of the Finance Board to course, being careful not to spend un­ issue a warning to us and I accept fully the necessary money is one side of that coin. first two pages of his document, I think The other side, I am delighted that Mr. they are first class, but when it comes into Speaker has brought forward in his motion, the line of saying, well now, on policy there is that it is up to us to develop the busi­ are certain things you have got to be careful ness of the Island and in the first place if about, I am going to reiterate that some­ we are going to be providing old folks’ times we declare policy and we do not get homes, and everybody is in favour, I am it implemented and we are still trying to sure there is not one member here who retain the right in this Court to determine would not make all possible provision for policy. Let us face up to that one, but the the old people, the young, everyone, but if important thing this morning as far as I am we are going to be able to provide these concerned is that the message should go out facilities, in the first place we have got to to the people of the Isle of Man that we do everything we possibly can to develop have not dissipated our strength in a year the business of the Island so that we can of government, that we are as determined earn the money to provide the taxes to as ever to go along as a team and ensure enable the Finance Board to have all the the prosperity and the revitalisation of this money they require so as to support every community and without doubt that is our possible development which is necessary. determination. I so move, Your Excellency. Mr. P. Radcliffe: You are doing well, Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, I rise to you are supporting what I have said. support the motion proposed by the Mr. Christian: Of course, I am supporting Speaker. I think it is a very good thing that anything that is commonsense, so far at this time, at the start of a new year of as you talk commonsense, Mr. Chairman Tynwald, that we should have a statement of Finance Board, I will support you, most made by our Chancellor of the Exchequer, certainly. I wonder again whether the in effect, which is sound commonsense I am system is right where, as things have hap­ sure to all of us, that we do not want to pened this morning, Mr. Speaker had to put waste any money unnecessarily, not one forward this emergency resolution so that penny on anything, and I do not think that we in Tynwald are in a position, in effect, we need to be told that, but perhaps it is a to debate the statement made by the Chair­ defect of our system that in any other man of the Finance Board. It seems al­ department a policy is worked out in ad­ together wrong to me that anyone can come vance and is propounded at the beginning into this Chamber, as the Chairman of the of a parliamentary session as to what is Finance Board has done this morning, and proposed to be done and what public not only him but other people on other money is available for various purposes and occasions, and can read out a statement a forward-looking policy so that people which we have only seen five minutes know what it is proposed to do. The before and with the procedure as it stands trouble with our system, we have a state­ at the moment we are given no opportunity ment made by the Chairman of the Finance of questioning him, discussing it, or any­ Board which simply warns us what we must thing else. I think that is one matter which not do. Now that is no way in which we I would hope, Your Excellency, it might be want to start off a new parliamentary year. possible to consider whether this procedure That certainly is not, to my mind, the is not in vital need of radical alterations because it seems that it is not a democratic attitude which we want to be shown to the manner of dealing with things. people of the Island on setting out on another parliamentary year as the way we Mr. MacDonald: You can now discuss it.

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T23

Mr. Christian: As I say, we can now, but we come to rely on something. It is very only because of the fact that the Speaker nice to have it as our jam, but not as our brought forward this resolution which then bread and butter on which we have to rely requires not only to be seconded, but to because that is the sort of income which have four members standing up in support. could disappear overnight through circum­ This is not on the Agenda, it is something stances over which we have no control that has had to be done as an emergency whatsoever. The items that the Chairman resolution. I do not think that an emergency of the Finance Board mentions in his resolution like this is an adequate way of statement, such as the Manx Electric Rail­ dealing with the problem. One thing that way for example, when he says there will be does concern me about the Chairman of £200,000 of expenditure required for the Finance Board’s statement, reading through coming year, our Estimates for this coming it, I could not actually see that there is any year was, I think, £193,000, so what is new difference in the situation now as far as the about that. That was approved at Budget finance and what we can afford to do in the time. There is nothing new there. Island is concerned from what was known perfectly well at the time of his Budget. Mr. P. Radcliffe: What about the £100,000 There is nothing. The increase in Social you were going to get usj for those assets? Services, that was known. It was known that Mr. Christian: We do not intend, Mr. this was coming off. I was waiting for him Chairman of Finance Board, to do what you to make some great disclosure of some un­ did when you were Charirman of the Local foreseen enormous expenditure with which Government Board, you poured over £1 we were faced, We are, in fact, faced this million into South Ramsey, destroyed the morning and in the coming year with no whole centre of the old town of Ramsey, expenditure which was not well known to us and sold the land without proper safeguards and well foreseen at Budget time. (Interrup­ for a sum of about £270. Do you call that tions.) Not that I know; if we are, you have good business? That is the sort of business, not put them out in your statement, or if to my mind, we should be avoiding. You, so I would be delighted if you would ex­ sir, with all due respect, have been a per­ pound it because I cannot see anything there sonal financial disaster to Ramsey. First of which was not already known to us, which all over the housing scheme in Lezayre was not already in existence, or which was Park, where after the scheme was com­ not foreseen would have to be borne by us pleted by the Local Government Board, the during the course of this year. It was known estimate of putting, the cost of putting the that the social security grants were going to defects right was about £| million, and that be increased. There was nothing new about was done under your supervision, sir. this. Why should it be necessary for a Chairman of Finance Board who has all the Mr. P. Radcliffe: I beg to differ, Your information he required, he has all the Excellency, on a point of order. Would the estimates from the various Boards which hon. member inform me who paid for put­ were all approved, why should it be neces­ ting the houses in Ramsey in order? I sary for him to come now and make what would like him to get his points correct. sounds almost like a sort of statement of disaster that is facing the Island? I am Mr. Christian: I did not say who paid, I said that it should not have been necessary. delighted that the Speaker has answered A scheme was done under your supervision this, because this would have given a wrong and when it was completed it was taken out impression. We talk one moment about of the hands of the Ramsey Commissioners, what a prosperous place the Island is, the they were not adequate to deal with it, the enormous business which is being done now Local Government Board would deal with by the financial sector, which earns us over it, so the Local Government Board did deal 26 per cent, of our gross national income. with it, and what was the result when it was That is a thing which concerns me far more finished? To put the defects right was going than the items which the Chairman of the to cost the Manx taxpayer in the end, from Finance Board has mentioned in his state­ whatever source, over million. The ment. I am delighted our finance sector is Ramsey swimming pool also was built under doing so well, but I think we are crazy if your supervision, taken out of the hands of

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. T24 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

the Ramsey Commissioners, and finally the known classic is the question, “When are pool was entrusted to them and once again you going to stop beating your wife?” I it is a financial disaster. think this is a fair example of the way in Mr. P. Radcliffe: You are going to put which Mr. Speaker, with considerable par­ it right though. liamentary skill, has drawn this resolution. Perhaps I might then move on to another Mr. Christian: We certainly hope to put consideration, that of the condition of the it right, but let us get quite clear where the “curate’s egg”. This is a resolution, sir, fault lies. It lies, sir, with all due respect, which has been drawn in such a way that with you, and yet you come and try to talk taken as a whole there is no doubt that to us and say, “You must not waste money every member of this Court will agree. on this, that and the other” — there is no There is no doubt, for instance, that there man in this Court who has wasted more is very considerable concern in the Island public money than you have. Let us get that as to just what our Parliament, what our point straight. You, sir, in the very first establishment and what our courts are doing sitting of Tynwald last year, you tried to concerning these very well established allege that the fault of the Ramsey pool — desires of the people of the Island to take you said, and I can remember your exact steps to ensure that we do not slide into words . . . the morass of lawlessness and fear in which The Governor: Excuse me, hon. member, the United Kingdom finds itself today. would you mind getting down to the terms Therefore, sir, so far as the hon. Mr. of the motion. Speaker’s first point concerning that is con­ cerned. I would be quite sure that the Court Mr. Christian: Yes, I was answering a would say yes with a loud voice, we must question. (Laughter.) You said it was en­ take steps to preserve law and order here. tirely the fault of the local authority con­ We must take steps, for example, to make cerned. Those were your very words. I have certain that we do not allow ourselves to pleasure in supporting this motion. I think be deluded by the blandishments of the it is an excellent thing that it should go out gentlemen in Whitehall who might persuade to the public of the Isle of Man that we us to give up very valuable and necessary certainly, whilst we do not intend to spend deterrents for crimes of violence of a par­ any money unnecessarily if we can possibly ticular kind, whether committed by men of help it, nor do we intend to shout out and under 21 or over 21, a matter which is, of say, no, we cannot afford to do anything course, very much in the consideration of we would like to do to try to develop the the Branches at this moment. There is business of the Island and promote the another point I would like to make and this prosperity to the people of the Island, which is this. What we have in Mr. Speaker’s is what they sent us here to do. general speech, a speech of policy really, is Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, I would this. It is only since 1962 that there has been like to take this opportunity of congratu­ in existence a Finance Board, the duty of lating the hon. Mr. Speaker on this reso­ which has been to sort out the conflicting lution today, congratulating him particularly claims of the various departments of Tyn­ on the parliamentary skill with which lie has wald, the Boards and authorities and the used the established procedures of this Court like, all of whom have got a single-minded to enable a debate to take place when he desire to do the very best they can for wants it to; a procedure which I can assure their departments. I believe that it is a very the hon. member for Ramsey, who has just heartening fact that the Chairman of the sat down, is a well established one and Manx Electric Railway Board should con­ which is open to anybody to use, providing sider that the advancement of his depart­ he holds sufficiently strong and lucid ment is perhaps the most important part of opinions on the matter. I would also like the activities of Tynwald, and that other to congratulate Mr. Speaker for the way members in charge of other departments which he has drafted this particular resolu­ should have the same sort of views with tion. It is well known that the skill of regard to their department. Prior to the counsel in court is that of putting a question days of the beginning of the development to a witness which it is almost impossible of our Constitution in the late 1950’s, the to answer one way or the other. The well situation was that various members, various

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T25

Chairmen of Boards, put forward their creature of the House of Keys, of which wishes for development and expenditure to Mr. Speaker is the very able and active the Chancellor of the Exchequor, who is leader, it seems strange to me that the the Governor, and until 1957, we must policies worked out under that position remember that any intention of spending should be treated as though the Speaker was money on these schemes was subject to the the leader of the opposition and the House direct and detailed approval of the Treasury of Keys was a department of Government in Great Britain. Now since those days we which had no opportunity of having its have developed to the point where, instead opinions heard or acted upon. We have had of the Governor being the Chancellor an example of that, sir, in the speech of of the Exchequor under the day-to-day the hon. member for Ramsey who has just supervision of the British Government, we, sat down. He has made the elementary Tynwald, have now appointed our own mistake, Your Excellency, of thinking that organising Committee in the form of the decisions made in the past by Tynwald are Finance Board. The Finance Board has the in fact, the decisions of a member or depart­ unenviable task of weighing up the am­ ment at the time who put forward a resolu­ bitions of the heads of every department, of tion which was later approved. Let us look doing its best to sort out what is necessary, at the situation; let us look at the situation what is desirable, what might be wasteful, at South Ramsey for example. He mentions in an endeavour to ensure that the money the question of the then Chairman of the available is spent in the right way. Ever Finance Board having acquired property in since 1962, and I speak as one of the the south of Ramsey, having, in the view of original members, one of the members of the hon. member for Ramsey, despoiled the first Finance Board, there has been a South Ramsey, and in this I am inclined to continual, shall I say, running fight, be­ agree with him, he then proceeds to lay the tween the heads of departments in general, blame on the Chairman of the Finance the Speaker of the House of Keys in general, Board in person, for a matter which was put if if you will excuse me referring to him i-n before Tynwald Court and was approved that way, and the Finance Board. Having and can be approved only if the House of elected a Finance Board which has the Keys itself approves the resolution. It seems power to co-ordinate the various plans, to me quite wrong that we should blame individual Board leaders have tended to individuals for corporate decisions. I think, resent the necessary control which this has too, sir, that we would be wrong if we involved and 1 am sorry to say that the accepted this resolution as a green light House of Keys, having passed and approved to the heads of all departments to get on of the legislation which created this situation with what they want to. As a member of — do not forget, instead of being controlled the Indigenous Power Committee, I am very by Whitehall we now are orchestrated by disappointed that the decision of the Finance the Finance Board — the opposition to this Board, as orchestrator of our activities, appears to have centred to this in the House should have involved the fact that instead of Keys. The House is the department of of being in a position to ask for money Government which is the strongest Branch thir, month for the scheme of using our of the two. The House is the deciding indigenous power, that we are still in a factor in all legislation. The House has a position where we can only get the approval permanent two-to-one majority in various of Tynwald to the idea of the matter. I departments such as the Selection Com­ believe, however, that we should not feel mittee, the Executive Council, the various that because we have a good idea, that departments in which the wishes of Govern­ when all of us are agreed that it is a good ment are organised and, as I say, orches­ thing, that we should thereby have the trated. It seems a strange thing to me that power immediately to force the Finance the Speaker of the House of Keys, which Board into making the funds available. I has a permanent two-to-one majority in the believe that we should be very careful with Selection Committee, the Executive Council, this resolution today. We should be careful indeed in the Finance Board at the moment, to ensure that we do not, by passing this that it should be suggested that the events resolution, emasculate the Finance Board which are happening, which are being dealt and thus put the clock back no less than with by the very organisation which is the 16 to 20 years and putting ourselves into a

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. T26 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 position where we will lose the very valuable He was not one of the originators of contribution which the Finance Board and this policy. He opposed it and he opposed the control and orchestration which it pro­ it tooth and nail. Now he wants to be on vides would be lost. I believe that it is not the bandwagon. Well, I agree, we do want coincidental that the beginnings of the im­ to continue the policy of low taxation. “The provements in the economy of the Island, preservation of high standards of education in the prosperity which we have enjoyed, and social provision” — who can quarrel are coincident in time with the creation of with that? “The due regard for the cost of the Finance Board. I would hope, therefore, living in the Isle of Man”; we must accept that whilst we agree with some or many of it. “The development of the basic industries the portions of this “curate’s egg” we of farming, fishing and tourism”; bound to should remember that it is good only in accept it. “The encouragement of financial parts and that some of the statements made institutions and light industries in such a are not to be taken as an opportunity of manner as to ensure the fullest measure of letting us all have our hands in the till at employment”; I would only add to that, the same time. “and the greatest amount of tax available for us to spend in maintaining our standards Sir John Bolton: 1 feel, sir, that I should of living.” We go on to the next one, and say in reading this this morning we have this is the reason for the whole of this had no time to study it very carefully, but resolution. “The improvement of transport in my view, and I must say this, I have links with the Island and the retention of not said it before, but I am going to say the remaining pattern of unique rail and it this morning, that Mr. Speaker is in my tramway systems” — very carefully skimmed view (he most dangerous man in the Legis­ over by Mr. Speaker in his speech, by lature of the Isle of Man and has been for making an attack on the Steam Packet very many years by endeavouring, by sub­ Company rather than concentrating on what terfuge, to mislead both the public of the he is trying to do, to get Tynwald to decide Isle of Man and the Legislature of the Isle now what they are going to do when the of Man. He starts off this resolution stating resolutions come forward which are later that as the outcome of the General Election on the Agenda. This part I am going to the Manx people clearly indicated their move, sir, first of all 1 must say that I am unwillingness to accept the apathy and com­ not going to support the resolution at all — placency of the previous administration. I (laughter) — but I am certainly going to would quarrel with that immediately, and I move in any case that the words “and the would like to point out, too, that whilst we retention of the remaining pattern of unique do know that we have 12 new members in rail and transport systems” be deleted from the House of Keys, actually there are only the resolution because these are matters seven as a result of fighting with the which have to be dealt with by their own previous members. Five members of the resolutions at a later stage in this sitting of House of Keys did not contest the election the Court. “The preservation of the enr and I would deny that the previous House vironment”; nobody can quarrel with that. of Keys, which must be the only portion of “The preservation and encouragement of the Legislature which is being criticised, the interest in items of interest of historical and previous House of Keys was guilty of apathy cultural interest” — I understand that Mr. and complacency. During the previous five Speaker has attended one meeting out of years there were very many considerable the last 15 meetings of the Museum Com­ strides made in the development of schemes mittee. That is the amount of his interest for the benefit of the Isle of Man. There is in the preservation of historical and cultural no shadow of doubt about that. Then we matters. I do believe, too, that we then go get down to the detail. We read, “The to the very end of this resolution, “that the maintenance of a high standard of law and achievement of these objectives still remains order”; who could quarrel with that? “The the policy of Tynwald.” May I say that if continuation of a low tax pattern” — now it does it is mainly without the help or we are not goieg to quarrel with that encouragement of the hon. Mr. Speaker. I although I must say now that it was paid particular notice, in fact, that he used achieved 15 years ago in the teeth of the word “team”. I have never known Mr. strenuous opposition by Mr. Speaker himself. Speaker, in 31 years, work in a team. It is

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18. 1977 T27 quite impossible for Mr. Speaker to be a Island are concerned with an expanding, member of a team, unless he is leading the prosperous, healthy and peaceful community. team, and controlling the team. I feel, Your I think this is a precept which has been Excellency, that these matters must be said accepted by Tynwalds of the past and that in view of a resolution of this kind which is why I feel that to state that there was is brought forward with all the good will an unwillingness to accept, et cetera, is in the world, merely to forestall two resolu­ altogether wrong. Further, sir, I feel that tions which appear on the Agenda at a the point made by my hon. colleague is very later stage. relevant insofar that the only changes that have taken place have taken place in the Mr. Kermeen: I think that it is significant House of Keys, admittedly the dominant that this session has started with what you Branch of the Legislature, but nevertheless might call key speeches and I would indeed Tynwald as a whole has for the bulk of it, welcome the high calibre of oratory we have the majority of the members who are here heard this morning. However, my inclination at the present time, were the majority in indeed is not to follow them. 1 am not the previous administration. attempting to emulate them. My inclination is that when the Finance Board has been The Speaker: The electorate could not get savaged to the point of emasculation is to at you. keep my head down. (Laughter.) However, as you know, I have tabled a resolution, and Mr. Kerruish: Yes, we know very well about the powers of the electorate and we I did not catch your eye, but it is in exactly the same terms as that proposed by Sir respect their wishes and I am quite certain that the members of the Legislative Council John Bolton and, therefore, it is my privi­ are anxious to be as much a mirror of the lege indeed to second that, but I would like to point out something which is significant minds of the Manx people as are the elected members of the House of Keys, whether on the administrative point of view. Our Standing Orders, I always understood, were they are elected 30 years ago like you, sir, or like some of my hon. friends who were made for the support and indeed the help of the Court rather than its hindrance and elected a year ago. I feel that there has Standing Order 59 says that “no person shall been quite a lot of skill exercised in the propose any motion or amendment which framing of this resolution, because if it is shall anticipate a matter already appointed to be passed, even in an amended form, we for consideration of Tynwald, except by find that it will make very little change from the policy that has been pursued by leave of Tynwald supported by a quorum of Tynwald over the last 15 years. There is both Branches.” Your Excellency has seen no doubt about it that all the headings that fit not to seek a quorum of both Branches have been stated here by the hon. Mr. as to whether this matter indeed offends the Speaker are all principles that have been Standing Orders, but I think that the Court preserved and upheld by the Tynwalds of should be advised that we are determining, if indeed this is a determination of policy, the past. Talk to any comparative newcomer something we are called upon to consider to the Island, whether they came here last much more fully later on. Therefore I do week or five years ago, what is one of the hope the Court will agree to the deletion of aspects, the favourable aspects to which they refer? The quality of life in the Island and the words “and the retention of the re­ one particular aspect of the quality of life maining pattern of unique rail and tramway is the preservation of law and order, where system” because that is in effect cutting old and young can walk at night or any before the knife. time of the day in any part of the Island Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, I think without let or hindrance and without fear. my hon. colleague had a very good analogy That is one of the points that I feel, sir, when he referred to this resolution as being that must be spelled out. I would not like very similar to the “curate’s egg”. For my to suggest that Tynwald accepts at this part, sir, I find the most distasteful part of moment that we have not always been con­ that particular resolution that which refers cerned with the maintenance of a high to the unwillingness of previous administra­ standard of law and order, and I think we tions to grasp the nettle of facing up to the have achieved it; of course we want to fact that the bulk of the people in this maintain it. The continuance of a low

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. T28 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 pattern of taxation, that has been adequately We already have people with European answered by my hon. colleague, Sir John interests taking an active part in the manu­ Bolton, and if you pass on to the next facturing industry in the Island, and we item, the preservation of a high standard of think that should be encouraged. We have educational and social provision, what does a lot to offer them here; we have not only the record show? As far as apathy is con­ low taxation, we have something more; we cerned, this argument is blown out of the have this law and order, we have the right water. If we look at our spending over the type of environment and we have excellent last three years we find that Tynwald has labour relations. Let us do the best to agreed to spend, in relation to our three encourage them to come here and take major social services, education, health and advantage of them. To suggest that there social welfare, three years ago the total has been apathy in this direction is alto­ expenditure was £9 million, in the current gether wrong. For that reason I am, perhaps year, £18 million. Expenditure on all these to some members not surprisingly, moving desirable fields, admittedly it has felt the an amendment. (Laughter.) The resolution impact of inflation, has doubled over the reads as follows: “ Whereas in November last two years. But there is another favour­ 1976, as the outcome of a General Election, able aspect of this rocketing as far as our the Manx people clearly indicated . . and financial affairs are concerned. If we go then delete from, then on to the word back three years ago we find the receipts “support” and substitute “. . . clearly indi­ from income tax were of the order of £8 cated their support for a progressive pro­ million. During the current year they are gramme embracing such essential provisions anticipated to be of the order of £14 million. as . . .” That would be deleting the words, This is the first year — I think I am correct to my mind the offensive w'ords, and mind in saying this — that receipts under this you, the untruthful words — to go back to heading exceed receipts under the heading a term used by Mr. Speaker this morning — of indirect taxation, showing the stimulating “. . . their unwillingness to accept the apathy economy of the Island, whether it be in and complacency of the previous administra­ the manufacturing sector, or whether it be tion, and elected a Government pledged to in the financial sector, it matters not, the support.” I think it should read: “Whereas fact remains and shows that the economy of in November 1976, as the outcome of a the Island is buoyant as a result of the General Election, the Manx people clearly policies pursued by the Government over indicated their support for a progressive the years not only in relation to our agri­ programme embracing such essential pro­ culture and fisheries, but also in relation to vision as ...” I am prepared to accept the encouraging our financial institutions, and whole of the rest of this with one exception. particularly with regard to stimulating the I am not for deleting the whole of the manufacturing industry. Some little time paragraph relating to the improvement of ago, on another debate, I drew attention to transport links with the Island, I am sup­ the fact that when Tynwald of the day, the porting the improvement of transport links Tynwald of the day, endorsed a policy to the Island. When I say that . . . directed towards encouraging the establish­ Sir John Bolton: The amendment does ment of new light industry, there were not say that, it deletes the last words. about 600 people employed in the m anu­ facturing sector. With the encouragement Mr. Kerruish: I beg your pardon, sir. I of successive Tvnwalds now we have some­ was going to suggest that I would delete the thing of the order of 3.000 employed in that words “and the retention of the remaining particular direction. Government, through pattern of unique rail and tramway systems.” the medium of the Industrial Advisory Not that I am indicating that I am against Council, and the Finance Board, are con­ that, but I think it is altogether wrong, as tinually endeavouring to expand in this pointed out by the hon. member for West particular field. Perhaps T am speaking Douglas, that we should pre-judge another rather too quickly on this one, but in the item that is already on the Agenda. I for­ very near future a trade mission from the mally move the amendment to amend the Isle of Man will be going into Europe in preamble to the resolution, because I feel an endeavour to entice more people from it would be altogether wrong to reject a there to come here and establish industry. resolution amended in this form. Because

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T29

as far as I am concerned, I am in support what he was going to do, and we know how of all these particular principles; I think the he did do it — we know how he did do it. whole of the Court is, but I am certainly It is not listing the things we would all not prepared to suggest to the Manx public expect the right to spend money on that is that I regarded that there was apathy and difficult for this Court and for the Manx unwillingness to face up to these problems people, it is getting our priorities right that in the past. So I formally move the reso­ is the problem. Anybody can list this. If I lution that I have indicated. I have not went to Peel school and said to all the discussed this amendment with anyone, but 11-year-olds, “List all the things you and I sincerely hope that the commonsense of mummy and daddy would like” — you it will appeal to some hon. member — and would get it. But ask them how you are ultimately, I hope, to the majority of hon. going to get them and how the priorities members—who will second it and eventually are going to be decided and by whom, and support it. I feel that to turn this down en then the problem arises that even today I bloc would be to say to the Manx people find Tynwald cannot solve. I do not believe that we are not prepared to face up to these that as Rome, the greatest and probably the particular propositions, whereas as we all wealthiest empire that ever existed, found know, every member of Tynwald — and I out, that subsidies solve economic problems, believe it goes for the new members as well which certain people in this Court seem to as the old members — this has been the think is the answer. I do not think subsidies policy of the Isle of Man Government for ever have or ever will. In fact, I was amazed the past 15 years. I think it is a good policy, this week to listen to a farmer friend of I think it is a policy that has been beneficial mine say to me, “It has been a bad potato to the people of this Island. As far as I am season this season.” I said, “What is the concerned I am 100 per cent, behind it. matter this year, there are plenty?” “Too I formally move the amendment I have plenty,” he said, “far too many, the price indicated to the Court. will drop.” This is what happens, this is what happens when you run a system that Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, the very first paragraph of this I, too, cannot they are running. It is the will of the people, I think, to strive for themselves and their accept. I do not believe that, certainly in the past 11 years that I have been in this country to make money, to produce more and more products more efficiently, and Court, as far as Peel is concerned if any products which other people seek, which in apathy has been shown in Tynwald. In Peel, I know quite well what has been done in the the end is what we are all after. How does Tynwald do this without a party system and, last 11 years, and the people of Peel them­ selves do not need Mr. Speaker to tell them thus, a guaranteed continuation of a policy agreed by a majority of the House of Keys? what has been done; they know it, they live there. Also, I think we can accept quite It cannot, it does not. I have been in long enough now to see this. The parish pump clearly everything that Mr. Speaker has listed in the resolution. In fact, I think this does, unfortunately, work and work mighty hard at times, and it does have a very big is what all the democracies since the days effect on an independent member of the of Aristotle have maintained as the ideal. House. We must all, I think, agree to this — Any democrat or pseudo-democrat, or even it does. Without an organised party system, a person like Hitler, would accept this. Remarkably, apart from missing out the government is very, very difficult. Because development of the Island forces, even the best of things can be thrown out at the Adolph Hitler would agree with any one of drop of a hat for some silly little reason. these. In fact, it is almost word for word The real problem I find facing us, the Keys what he said in one portion of “Mein especially and Tynwald in general, is our Kampf”, the same thing exactly when you own organisation. I think every member go through it. (Laughter.) But what he did here today will agree with me on this. When not say was how he was going to do it. In he gets home at night he can fully under­ his own country he spelt out exactly the stand every day why “Victor’s Post Office” same thing, it is in chapter 2 if you want is making a fortune — because the heap is to look at it, the same sort of nonsense. there, and he sits down to be an expert in (Laughter.) He did not tell anybody exactly education, in transport, in electricity, in

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. T30 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

water, in farming, in fishing, in everything. I can reply on the good commonsense of He may find himself on five or more Boards Tynwald, the House of Keys and the Manx fighting with himself for the cake. I have for people to make certain that out of this a long, long time thought that we will never massive system we have got, some sensible solve this sort of problem until we give one system will evolve. It is easy, also, I think, man a job and if he fails he is sacked, when you look at these, to say, “The main­ because otherwise five men, all on one tenance of a high standard of law and Board and each of those five men serving order.” We will all agree to that. There is on other Boards, in fact, often on many not a man or a woman in the Isle of Man, other Boards fighting for the same cake except perhaps the evil-doers, who would which is given out each year by the Manx not agree with that. We do not need to be taxpayer in the form of taxes. I still believe told that in Tynwald, it is acceptable to that we should have a look at our own every person. “A continuation of a low tax organisation, and I think this is the problem pattern” — well, this is acceptable too, that faces us, our own organisation within providing you do not want to spend too the Keys and within Tynwald. As things much. It may be that the Labour Party stand, the best Finance Board in the world would agree to a higher taxation system if would find it impossible to please everyone, it was in the public interest. I do not think and, in fact, usually please none. Someone we would be right to accept the continua­ has got to decide, and in the end the Finance tion of a low tax system because we may Board has to decide what the priorities are, need taxation to raise the money to provide someone has to. You can rest assured — I for the needs of the Manx people. So, how know Mr. Speaker would be the last man to do we swallow that one? Very difficult to accept what Executive Council would decide swallow. Any person who is a real socialist since he came off it — no doubt about that. could not swallow it if he thought the He would be the last to accept it. This is public needs were apparent. “The preserva­ what has been the problem in Tynwald. tion of high standards of educational and (Interruption.) You see, there is no doubt social provisions” — we are probably doing about it — I think the former member for better in one field and as good as anywhere Rushen, the hon. member of the Council, else in the world today in that. We do not Mr. Simcocks, said, and others have said, need to be told on that one. In fact, I was these sort of resolutions come up with only looking and adding up on this present regular monotony. It is an unfortunate Agenda today, £657,000 is going on just thing, I often think, that Mr. Speaker is not these things. On top of that figure there is an ordinary member sitting here and getting another £635,000 on the urgent needs of out of that Chair because then I could social security, for special schemes that accept everything he said politically every have been brought into line with the United time he attacks other politicians on the floor Kingdom, which all admit today has the of the House. I find it difficult to accept the best social service system, apart from Ger­ Speaker sitting in our Chair — we put him many, I believe, in the world. “The develop­ there — using his position as a political ment of basic industries, of farming, fishing hammer. This happens so regularly; it is and tourism” — well, yes, of course, we all unfortunate, but it happens. 1 believe that agree with it. If we said we did not we today Tynwald and past Tynwalds have would all be kicked out at the next election, done a remarkably good job in this Island, if we did it on one of those areas. Can you a remarkably good job despite the system imagine the Chairman of the Tourist Board that we are working under, despite this mass standing up and saying, “I do not agree with of paper-work which everyone hopes and the development of tourism”? He would not tries to read or throws in the waste-paper only not be Chairman of the Tourist Board basket. I think that despite this Tynwald has for long, he would not be a member of the worked remarkably well. Had it not done Government for long. So, of course, we will so, then there is no doubt in my mind that agree with these. What I do not think is the United Kingdom Government would that we should pour so much money into have been running this Island a long, long things that are earning so much money time ago. It has never seen fit to do it, and themselves. I do not think they should be I doubt if it will ever have to do it, because subsidised to the extent that they are being

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T31 subsidised. I think people should stand on and cultural items of special interest” — I their own feet more and we should en­ can think of them all, from Bishop’s Court courage them to do that. “The encourage­ and the Nunnery and all the rest. They are ment of the financial institution to light all there. Unfortunately Bishop’s Court, industries” — well, their is no doubt about it, no-one now seems really interested in it, we would accept that because if you look again, unless the taxpayer is going to spend at one factory in the Isle of Man, and it is a lot of money on it. At first everybody the Martin Baker factory, we have not sup­ wanted to do it themselves and go it alone ported it, we have not pumped money into and give us money, but the money is gone, it, but if that one factory went out today the bird has flown and the taxpayer has got the unemployment situation in the Isle of it back on his own plate from what I can Man would be far worse than it has ever gather. So that is my view. been, than it has ever been in its history. Let us say thank God for that firm that is The Governor: Do I understand that you here, and I hope lots of other firms that were seconding the hon. member of Council, will come here and do just as well. What Mr. Kerruish’s amendment? (Laughter.) worries me, when we compare some of these Mr. MacDonald: I was not, no, I did not industries that are quoted here, some of say I was, but I will second Mr. Kerruish’s them are providing a long, long winter. I do amendment because, quite honestly, what he not like industries that provide work for 15 usually says is sense and it usually comes weeks and then disappear for the rest of the out in the end. year. This has been a problem in all this sort of industry, always in the coastal in­ Mr. Moore: All I want to say, Your dustries. No-one has solved it, everyone has Excellency, is that we are going over the tried to. I would prefer to see Manx people same ground all the time. Everybody is working 52 weeks of the year, earning reading out everything that has been said. money for 52 weeks in the year apart from All I want to say is that we should be their holidays. They get holiday pay any­ grateful to Mr. Speaker for giving us the way. “The encouragement of the financial opportunity to debate something which, in institutions to light industries” — financial the same way as Mr. Speaker is doing, institutions, it is left with the Treasurer and pre-empts what we are going to do later the Finance Board to get to the Isle of Man this afternoon. This statement of the Chair­ as many — as long as we can get the money man of the Finance Board tells us how we from them — and as long as we make should vote on the Isle of Man Railway, certain, and we must make certain, that they tells us what our priorities are. All I am abide by the rules and pay their taxes and saying is that the only reason that this re­ stick within the law, and if they do not, solution is in front of us is because we trample on them very rapidly. “The im­ should not have a statement pre-empting provement of transport rates.” I am not what we should do on resolutions which getting involved in this, it will be coming up follow later this afternoon. Some of these later. I am not so certain on the “unique should have been this morning. Item 21 is railway and tramway systems.” We have got dealing with the railway and every member, them, Tynwald has voted for them, and if including the Chairman of Finance Board, we want to run three systems, I would say, would have been able to put his case to this well, so be it, if Tynwald votes the money hon. Court as to how we should vote and to run three systems. Quite rightly I think why we should vote for or against these the Chairman of Finance Board said, well, resolutions. If this method of statements is if you want to run “puffer-trains” and elec­ to come in front of us, as the item im­ tric trains and ’buses, all losing lots of mediately after question time, it is per­ money, well then you have got to face up fectly obvious to everybody that they are to the consequences that amount of money going to be followed by this type of is not being available for something else. resolution. One thing has created the other, This is all he is saying, this is common- and I feel that the whole thing is all wrong sense. “Preservation of the environment” — and we have wasted all this time in debating yes, as long as we do not go mad about things that should be debated on their own it, we would all agree with it. “Historical merit at the right time.

Policy of Tynwald—Emergency Resolution—Amended and Passed. T32 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

The Governor: The Court will adjourn what the policy of the Government should, until 2.30. be, we have felt that we should try and The Court adjourned for lunch. contact the various Boards as much as possible. We have already had invitations — and I am taking up these invitations — from the Health Services Board, we visited their POLICY OF TYNWALD — DEBATE hospitals, spent the day with them, saw CONCLUDED. exactly what they wanted to do; we spent Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, 1 am half a day with the Board of Social Security certain that all the hon. members this visiting their properties; we actually had morning will be thinking to themselves it the opportunity of going through the plan­ will be a long time before the Chairman of tation with the Forestry Board, saw what Finance Board makes another statement. their future programme was going to be, (Laughter.) I can assure them this is where and that, as you will see later in the they are entirely wrong. I welcome the point programme, is why we felt this was an and I welcome the resolution that has been opportunity to let the Government do some­ put forward because it gives us an oppor­ thing worthwhile. What has happened this tunity to discuss the various aspects of morning? I appreciate that possibly the Government policy. What we felt on the statement was not giving the opportunity Finance Board was that as far as I am to make a comment. I am not going to concerned as the Finance Board Chairman, criticise Mr. Speaker for bringing forward I would hate to see the situation arise where his resolution because if you look at it, once a year we could possibly sit around apart from the way he has worded the first a table to consider all the various develop­ part of it, he has actually said, as has ments taking place in the various Boards. already been mentioned and there is no We either direct them that they should take need for me to repeat it, the majority of out, eliminate from their various schemes the points he has made are ones we are certain aspects or they should reduce their wholeheartedly supporting. There is one amount of contribution by a certain amount thing I would like to say. W hen he does of money. I think it is much better if we refer to the unwillingness to accept the get together regularly and this matter has apathy and complacency of the previous been pointed out even in the press on administration, et cetera, many speakers several occasions whereby a full discussion have mentioned various aspects of this, but should take place at the start of this session one thing I do feel a certain amount of to give us all the general idea what we have pride in is when I was on the Local Govern­ to face up to in the future. What we are ment Board, although I was accused by my trying to do this afternoon has been men­ hon. friend this morning of wasting a lot tioned by many members this morning, is of money on South Ramsey, I am certain to give guidance on policy. This is basically that the two members of South Ramsey and it, we want to let you know how we see myself will get together in Ramsey some the situation. We were given a balance of day and we will sort out that problem and £815,000 surplus in the Budget. That already get that place built. I hope they progress, I has been earmarked for other projects. hope they get on with it. But when we look W hat we are saying, if we continue the at it from the point of view of what has schemes that have not been discussed been done by the Government in the past, thoroughly in Tynwald it will mean that we just two things, one specifically that we, the are going to have to estimate in advance Finance Board, are involved in from day what we are going to have to find for to day, is that we have advanced the sum of another year, it is going to make it very £15,493,000 for people to buy their own difficult when other Boards will come for­ houses with. The Local Government Board ward and say, what about our schools, what under the Private Enterprise Scheme ad­ about our homes, what about our various vanced £2,669,000 to young people to build things that we feel are essential? I would their own homes. This, to me, is not a case like to say at this stage that as a new of complacency of any Government. As I Finance Board putting forward the point I said, I think this morning has been help­ have about sitting and discussing with other ful, it has been helpful to us and I am people, and discussing in Tynwald generally certain it has been helpful to everybody to

Policy of Tynwald—Debate Concluded. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T33

get the position clear of what we want to earning capacity on the Isle of M an we will do in the future. I do absolutely whole­ never ever be able to sustain social services heartedly support the amendment put for­ which we have got at present, and we will ward by the hon. member of the Council, certainly therefore never be able to look Mr. Kerruish. I think the point he made is after the welfare of all the Island’s people. one that we can strongly support. All these So that is what we basically must be looking policies, as I have said before, are ones that for. Where T feel the Chairman of the have been substantially what the Govern­ Finance Board has gone astray in making ment have been trying to do, and what is his statement this morning, it appears to me our full intention to continue to try to to be a negative statement as firing warning do in the future. But we want to get shots across our bows, of being careful. I Government, as far as possible, to get their have got nothing against anybody telling me priorities in order, and it is the wish of the to be careful, but at the same time I would Finance Board at all times to work with have preferred had that statement said this is Boards to do this. what we can do over the next few years; we on the Isle of Man have stable Government, Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I have we do not have party government as such, listened to the debate this morning, and so we stay stable for a five-year period. We listened to it with pleasure, really, because have talked before about planning what like the hon. member for Douglas, Mr. Government will do over the years. This is Kermeen, I think the debate so far has been often referred to as a new House, I would a particulary good one. I will probably think suggest that even the newest members now that when I sit down it will be time for this — I have only been here two years prior to debate to close — (laughter) — because 90 the last General Election — but even those per cent, of us, I dare say, would stand up who came in at last November, they now this afternoon now in this Court and say have their feet, as it were, under the table, exactly the same things, that is that we they know the system; I would suggest to thank the Chaiman of the Finance Board every member in this Court that you are for putting forward his statement; we also very shortly on your own Boards going to thank Mr. Speaker for setting off the hare, be discussing your priorities to put them in if you like, so that we could debate that order for the green book of Estimates. statement this morning. It has given us the Every Board, I would suggest, must come chance to say in some broad outline — and forward next Budget time with its priorities that is all it is, none of us is going to in order, not just for the year — and I am disagree with him — broad outline of what talking particularly of capital expenditure the policy should be. I will just say that I because this is the one that catches up on agree entirely with the hon. member, Mr. us all the time, once you have embarked Kerruish in the Legislative Council, who has on capital expenditure you have to finance moved this amendment, because similarly it for future years — each Board must have to him I would be against speaking ill of set out its plan to the end at least of our the dead, and I think that the last House period of Government. It irks me somewhat is a dead House, and we should be prepared to realise, when I know, I have sat in the to look forward, and although looking back, public gallery in this Court, and I have been say “nowt” about it but get on with moving a member on this floor and heard it said forward. I would suggest, in the broad out­ that Government must plan out what it is line of Mr. Speaker’s motion in front of us going to do over the years. Very little which we all agree with, that the most appears to happen. Because it irks me as important is the social welfare of the people Chairman of the Control of Employment of the Isle of Man, and I say the social Committee when I know we have to, even welfare of the people of the Isle of Man in probably today, issue work permits — and its broadest term possible, not just relating we are issuing work permits, or we are to social services but in its social welfare. dealing with work permits in a ratio of That is what we on the Isle of Man should about 400 per week — we are having to be aiming for and achieving. In order for issue work permits for tradesmen to come us as Government to achieve that aim w? in to carry out work. We are having to require full employment because unless we because we have not got the tradesmen have full employment and people with available on our own employment register

Policy of Tynwald—Debate Concluded. T34 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 to carry out that work. This, to some extent, thing I really wanted to say most of all —• is an indictment of our Government policy. I appreciate the statement by the Chairman It seems ridiculous to me that we should be of the Finance Board. I think it is impor­ building a school at Peel, first-class in its tant. The thing with which I am greatly entirety, but that we cannot produce the concerned is that it is only once a year we labour on the Isle of Man to get that built have the opportunity to monitor the position in time for September 1979. It seems ridicu­ as we find it at that point. I believe, you lous that if that is planned and we have to know, that I am running a business even do it, that is a major capital expenditure, back on my own farm. I do not feel I can there are other Boards that are going to any longer afford to wait to the end of the come forward with major capital expendi­ financial year before I can monitor the ture in building schemes over the next few direction in which I am going. I have years; surely — and I welcome very much got through a commercial organisation the this idea of the Finance Board visiting the facility to feed my information through a Boards and going round and talking to the computer which gives me back half-way Boards, and in fact Boards talking amongst through the next month the direction in Boards — because it is only by this method which I am going, I believe that in Govern­ that we are going to get to a situation where ment it is not enough for us to be able to development on a regular basis in order to go for 12 months and then have a statement take up employment of the work force on presented as we do — useful as it is to us the Isle of Man created by Government can this morning — a warning statement without happen. That is all I particularly want to having any financial evidence as to what our say; we must get employment if we are to earning capacity is. This is the only thing create a social welfare state as we desire. I would say, that I believe that some way through the financial year we should be able Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, most of to ascertain where we stand. That gives us the things that one might have said have some idea before we start planning for the been said, on this, and I certainly do not following year what our capability is in intend to cover ground already covered. Just financing for the future. I do believe, if the in one remark in relation to the hon. mem­ Finance Board could look at that situation ber who has just resumed his seat, and that and could maybe through the computer get is in relation to re-training of people, and some feed back to the Board itself first of all this is the most important thing. We have and then to the members, it would help us got to enter into a programme of re-training in our planning for the future. Because un­ of a lot of people who are not finding a job less you have informed information readily at the moment, and not just school-leavers, available as to what the resources are, what other people as well. As you will appreciate, the cake is likely to be cut out, then we do my Board recently brought forward a not know what we should be going for. It scheme for apprentices and the finance to could very well be that we could stand to help people to employ more apprentices, and be going for expansion in providing work this is of the utmost importance that we opportunities in even a bigger way than we train skilled people so that at least in a are doing at the moment, but we do not few years’ time we will have the skilled know because we have not got the infor­ people on the Island. This is imperative. As mation. I do not believe the hon. Chairman far as the general term of this debate is is in a position to give us that. But I do concerned, I felt a bit resentful that we believe this should be our objective, to try were going to get tied down with so much and obtain data that would give us the time here today. But I think possibly it has opportunity to make an assessed assignment been useful to some degree, it has given of what our future ought to be in this line. people at the beginning of a new session an T think if that information were available opportunity to air points of view. I think this sort of exercise would be much more that that is probably all to the good. I feel, useful. however, that there are things in this, of course, that will be dealt with later on and Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, I will be we ought to deal with them at the correct very short, because an awful lot has been time. The only thing I would say as far as stated here today. I am certain that all the the finance is concerned — and this is the members of the Court will agree with the

Policy of Tynwald—Debate Concluded. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T35

content of the Speaker’s resolution as House in the last year was that we would amended, I think, by the hon. member of get down to getting work done, we would Council, Mr. Kerruish. We all require what not spend too much time talking about it, is set out in this particular resolution but as and 1 must confess that I have had a con­ I understand it, in June at Budget time —• siderable amount of disappointment at times I may not be able to remember the figures during various Tynwald debates when we completely, but at that time it was agreed have had one person after another standing in this Court that we would spend £10*1 up and agreeing with the fellow who has million on capital commitment in the year, just spoken before him. What bothers me and £47 million on the revenue account, and is that, as I understood it, we were given there would be something like £-J million specific duties to do in our appointment by credit on the general account at the end of the Selection Committee, and asked to put, the financial year. When I got this state­ not in as many words but practically asked ment of the Chairman of Finance Board to put our efforts into this to make sure that this morning 1 really could not read into the results were the best possible effort we this anything other than he was really could get out of that Board or Commission warning the Court that in order to keep to that we happened to be on. I realise that the Estimates that we framed in June we we are all part of one large organisation, would have to be careful between now and and each Board or department or Commis­ the end of the financial year. That is all I sion is a subsection of the whole, but it is read into the statement. But, of course, virtually impossible, even with the duties when you get a statement placed in front one has now, I feel from time to time that of you and then are called upon to debate I am not always doing them to the best of it two minutes later, it is not, I think, in my ability because I just have not got the best interests of Government. I think enough hours to go round to do everything that these things should be sent out well in that I wanted to do. I, therefore, presume advance of the Court sitting. But coming that the Finance Board, too, has a specific back to one other point. At the time of duty to do; it was put there and appointed the Budget I recall saying that the capital to monitor the performance of the other commitments of the green book had been Boards, to look after the money, to be, cut from £13J million to £10i million or whatever way you like to look at it, Tyn­ thereabouts, and that I had no argument wald’s bank manager or Tynwald’s cost with the financial arithmetic in that respect accountant, whichever title you want to give because the Finance Board had to balance it, but to look after the purse-strings. I its books. But I did say that 29 capital find, therefore, that when we get a report schemes or thereabouts had been cut out like we do this morning, most of which of this year’s Estimates. I come back to the everybody agrees with, nobody would deny point because I think the hon. member for that it is useful to have an advice or a Rushen made the point a few moments ago. cautionary warning at the start of another If we are planning for the next five years, session not to go mad on spending because surely, these 29 capital schemes that were it will ruin the plan, but we find in this taken out this year, should they not go to report and in statements, I should say as a the Executive Council or some Board that whole, that there are frequently points made will marshal them into some chronological which under normal conditions one is not order of importance so that they can come able to answer. I would not have been able forward next year and the year after in to make comment about page 3 of this order that we can achieve what, in fact, I statement this morning in which it goes on think the Chairman of Finance Board is to talk about the Manx Electric Railway attempting to achieve. costing the taxpayer a lot of money. I Mr. Watterson: Your Excellency, I have happen to be, for my sins, on the Boards or listened this morning and part of this after­ Commissions of three of these comments noon with considerable interest to this that come in this today by coincidence and, debate. It is the first major debate after the therefore, I feel I am slightly being “got at”. recess, a recess which I am still wondering The Manx Electric Railway is likely to cost what happened to. However, one of the the taxpayer £200,000 — that we do not things that I was hoping out of the new absolutely know yet but the Manx Electric

Policy of Tynwald—Debate Concluded. T36 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

Railway has been in existence a lot longer Could we please have from this next Court than we have been in existence, we have a little less talk and a little more action. inherited this and if the job has got to be We have an item here from the Speaker, done properly there is no point in “beefing” the one thing that is missing off that right too much about the way it has to be done. the way through is “a highly developed Frequently a lot of these costs are because sense of national pride”, that is what is in the past somebody has managed to pare missing from this because some of these the bill very nicely and take the political items and many of the things we do if we credit for it and passed the mess on to the do not adopt it with the attitude of a nation fellow who has followed him. We go on we might as well be another town council. to Manx Radio costing £75,000 per annum. So, please, three things, can we please, in All of you, if you have read the report this next session, now we have all got our which we turned out, now will know that 82 feet under the table, make sure that we put per cent, of the population of the Isle of our efforts into it, have a little less carping, Man use Manx Radio sometime during the especially between some of our more elder week, so 82 per cent, of the population statesmen between each other, a little more would like Manx Radio obviously to im­ action and, in future, statements and reports prove. We consider with such a high number made which are a little more accurate and of people that it is important we try and we may have a right to reply to. Thank you. improve it, we are not talking about massive sums of money. What was not presented in Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, just one this report this morning is the considerable point I think that has been touched on very efforts that are going into this to try and briefly, I am not here to blow my own make the station earn a lot more money as trumpet but there are one or two things that well, so that the service can improve again. we have already started on. As a member of I might add that I would like to put a the Health Board and the Electricity Board warning in here. We are going to be I think we have got our priorities right. We debating the steam railway later on and I have been having meetings with other would like to say that there is no point in people to make sure those priorities are us agreeing to take the steam railway on well understood and are in the right position and then, however it is to be operated, but there is one point that I find here and giving it a puny amount of money to run that concerns the industries in the Isle of on and then coming back in two years’ time Man. We have statements made here where and saying, look what a mess you have we wish to have more industry in the Isle of made of it, it is costing a fortune. I do Man and at the same time we have in the believe that there is a change in this House. Chairman of Finance’s speech here that we As I said, I am one of the seven members have 800 unemployed and there are unfilled who did get elected by taking somebody jobs in industry. Surely this leads to the else’s seat. I believe that the public, as a point that I think my colleague here and the whole, do actually want certain changes, Chairman of the Social Security made that they do want better management. There is we must have people directed into the jobs no point whatsoever in us trying to haggle that we really need to be filled. I think this and to argue over different matters and our must start with a general appraisal of all own personal interests as has been going on the services that we have in this way in the here this morning with the different Boards Isle of Man. We have got our Industrial and what I would like to see later on is this, Council, our Industrial Advisory Officer, that when a statement comes out, as it does and particularly in our schools, to make sure that we have all these schemes co­ here now, we have a right of reply in some related and aimed in the right direction. I way when certain matters are all lumped would like to see all these bodies getting together, I mean anybody outside this Court together to make sure that they have got would be forgiven for thinking Manx Radio priorities right. With industry I think it was only broadcast in the summer, it makes even noted or said today that we are ex­ references to seasonal businesses, it makes pecting to have industries coming in from reference to the money just going into as far away as the Continent and I do not other matters. You could also think that know how they are going to operate here Manx Radio does not supply the public. unless they bring in their own operatives.

Policy of Tynwald—Debate Concluded. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T37

This may be a good thing for the Isle of us in the future, particularly the economic Man, but I think in general when we know difficulties that do face us in the future and this we should aim for this particular point. also the many other problems and I think, If we do not know it, all right, forget it, but when some of our best members of this we do know these people are needed and Court do start to slang at one another, I think we should make sure now that we whereas the time of knowing the problems put a programme in to start a programme and all admitting the problems surely it is which will guide these people, old people, a time for all of these people to get together young people into employment for the and work for the solution of these prob­ future. lems because we all think, I am sure, along the same way. I was rather surprised in the Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, during the early message that we got from the Chair­ debate this morning and again this after­ man of the Finance Board, the suggestion noon we have pinpointed a lot of problems that perhaps we should not embark on that will face the future. In the first place, certain ventures which perhaps are econo­ the paper that was given by the Chairman mically a bit dubious and so forth. It has of the Finance Board told us things that we been suggested to me as Vice-Chairman of knew to a very large degree, that if too the Tourist Board if we are to lose many of many people go to the well, eventually the the attractions of the Isle of Man for which well might run dry, but it seemed to be people have come year after year and the aimed rather forcibly at certain sections of bulk of the people that come to the Isle of our activity, certain things which are worded Man are repeat visitors or people who have about “the provision of uneconomic ser­ known something about it before — if we vices the value of which is questionable”, are to lose the unique part of the Isle of for example, it says in one place, and it Man, the difference in the Isle of Man let used another thing about “rather than dis­ us say, the horse-trams, the Laxey Wheel, sipating our resources on projects which are the Manx Electric and the steam railway, dubious”, these kind of things are aimed at you might as well go to Blackpool. One of certain quarters, you see, and, of course, the great attractions of coming to the Isle we were able to understand what the of Man is the fact that we have these things message was. There have been messages, that are different and are unique and these now this naturally, in my view, would in­ provide somewhat of an attraction. They voke someone and full marks, I say, to Mr. may well be more expensive, they may well Speaker for taking up the cudgels and be expensive but if you were to take them saying, oh well, there is another side to this, away you may find that your income goes too, there is another side. I would allow Mr. down considerably. I would hope that we Speaker a certain amount of licence in the would have some sense of balance when we early part of the preamble where it does are deciding which we can afford and which perhaps take to task some of the people who we cannot afford to run. In the resolution have been ploughing the fields for a long that has been proposed by the Speaker, time and not perhaps producing the crops mention has been made of improvement of that he would have liked and suggesting the transport links and many people seem that the new man at the plough would do to suggest that the Isle of Man Steam very much better. I can understand that, Packet Company and the air lines are the that we give you a bit of licence, but what villains of the piece. I think we should I was rather surprised at, Your Excellency, remind ourselves that the Isle of Man was that during the debate this morning, I would say of the many years I have been Steam Packet Company, whilst they could in Tynwald and that is approaching 30, I be faulted in certain directions, do provide have never heard so much personal attack a very, very excellent service to many parts on people and it is not a good thing, it is of the United Kingdom and many times it not a good thing, in my view, to set member is a completely uneconomical exercise, against member, to set Board against Board, many times. One of the faults with this to set the Keys against the Council, to set summer was that had we have had fine days the old against the new. This is not the on certain days of the year when trips have time — I think it is the right thing that we been run the numbers that we would have should pinpoint the difficulties that do face had as the returns from the Steam Packet

Policy of Tynwald—Debate Concluded. T38 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 would have told a very different picture, but would work well together — I am sure they for some peculiar reason nearly every time will — for the future benefit of the Isle of these day trips were taking place it was a Man, and with that I intend to support the bad day and the number of trips that were resolution of Mr. Speaker, as amended by cancelled were fantastic. The Isle of Man the hon. member of the Council, Mr. has done better, proportionately, than many Kerruish. other seaside places in the United Kingdom. Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I would like Mr. Irving: Is it not our press conference two minutes at the most, sir, but I feel, after tomorrow? all the talk we have had today we surely Mr. MacDonald: He is at the wrong have learnt one lesson and to me it is that meeting. statements allowing no member to challenge Mr. Nivison: Reference has been made to any controversial points raised are most un­ improving the transport links with the Isle desirable and most unfair. I believe that of Man and I am coming on to the other future statements, and I hope they are as part which is the air services, which Mr. few as possible, should either be entirely Speaker quite rightly made some reference factual or should be the subject of a motion to, and I do say that the Airports Board before the Court so that hon. members can are constantly in touch with the various take part in a full-scale debate. I think it operators to have more and more move­ is most essential that when controversial ments to the Isle of Man and the answer in statements are made in this hon. Court that these days of heavy inflation is that they can members should have the right to challenge carry the same number of people with less those statements. We have seen what hap­ operations and so have a higher load factor pened this morning and this afternoon on each aeroplane and make it more econo­ because we ignored that fact. I would have mic. This is understandable, so we have to thought that many of the points raised in try to counteract this. I would say that the the Chairman’s statement could have been Airports Board have been looking into the used in the motion on the steam railway possibility, only the possibility, of finding which follows later in the debate. That is out the possibility of having a Manx air­ the time I believe that many of these points line and have been approached by business­ should have been made. We have seen and people and others and people who are al­ there is no doubt about this, I am sure all ready operating with a view to seeing if this hon. members will agree, we have seen the was possible. The idea being that they Finance Board this morning trying to pre­ should run more frequently to the Isle of empt our decision on the steam railway. I Man and provide a bigger service so that think this is quite wrong and I am not the numbers of people could be increased. unhappy to see the Finance Board retire I would say a lot of these things are going complete with egg on their face. on. I think it has been, first of all, a good Mr. MacDonald: Bury their heads. thing that the Chairman did make a state­ ment — I disagree with quite a bit of what Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I would he said but that is what we are here for. refer to the subject matter because every­ I disagree with quite a bit of what is con­ thing that has just been said by my hon. tained in this, on the grounds that I thought colleague for East Douglas could have been it was rather aimed at these dubious enter­ said later on in the debates. I think every­ prises which are part of the success of the one has been going over dead ground, but Isle of Man, part of the success. I also say, there is one point that baffles me. I have as far as Mr. Speaker is concerned, I think it learnt something this morning and I wanted is right that we should re-endorse the policy to learn it. I am a student of politics and of Tynwald, of Tynwald not the new Manx politics is my business at the moment. members or the old members of the Keys Mr. Speaker showed me clearly how to get or the Council, of Tynwald, all of us, that over the problem of no reply to a statement we should continue to proceed along the and for that I am grateful, Standing Order lines that we have done and I would hope 54(5) is the one I shall use in the future. that it is still possible for these men who We have been assured by the hon. Chair­ today perhaps wounded one another some­ man of the Finance Board he will be making what with heavy ammunition that they statements again in the future; well, sir,

Policy of Tynwald—Debate Concluded. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T39

Standing Order 54 will be used very, very if not always for the right reasons, but it frequently in this Court in that case because generally comes to the right decision and in no way can I see any justification for this is one of the great things that we can statements being put out that cannot be be proud of, for the role of the Finance challenged, particularly when the subject Board is as the servant of Tynwald and matter is going to be debated later in the nothing more, and let us consider what the time of this Court. There is a wonderful intention was behind the statement made by article on page 2 which I thought very the Chairman of the Finance Board this interesting and I would hope that in future morning. The position is quite clear. We are that they do their homework, the Finance obliged statutorily to budget for a surplus. Board, the bottom paragraph: “Our resident It is ridiculous for people to castigate us at population continues to grow and the fact this particular time and say that we should that we are today considering various have known or that the exact amount of schemes to relieve unemployment reflects money which has already been spent was our determination to protect Island resi­ forecast. It was not wholly forecast at all, a dents.” That is a contradiction in itself. It lesser sum was forecast and the expenditure is Government policy to increase the popu­ this year has been inordinately great since the lation in the Isle of Man, so are they telling time of the Budget and the Finance Board us that the more we increase the population felt that it would be quite wrong, foolish on the higher unemployment we are going to our part, to let a new legislative year com­ have and then if we do anything about it, mence without letting Tynwald know that the is that harmful to the Finance Board, it surplus for which we budgetted, because of is going to be harmful to the residents circumstances outside the control of Tyn­ of the Isle of Man? That is completely wald largely, has already been committed contradictory. and that therefore there is always the pos­ Mr. P. Radcllffe: You want to sit down sibility that we could end in deficit at the and read the thing again. end of the financial year. In all probability this will not be so because, generally Mr. Delaney: That is how it reads, sir. speaking, we find that often enough the I am reading it now and you have a copy carried forward figure is a little bit greater in front of you, sir, and you can read it than we anticipated that it would be exactly now. It is in front of you now to read and for the same reason that there are so many that is how it reads. Under Standing Orders differences in our income due to such things I have to read as it is written and that I do. as value added tax, Customs and Excise Yes, Your Excellency, the statement itself duties and so on, and so consequently it was put out with the intention, I believe, of may be that we may still end up not in usurping the power of Tynwald. The deficit, but it would be criminal of Finance Finance Board is part of Tynwald and here Board, at this particular stage, not to let we have statements made out as if they are Tynwald know that as we stand at the a separate part of this hon. Court. They moment the surplus that we budgetted for represent us, the Finance Board is part of has been eroded. This is all the intention this Court and, therefore, for them to try behind the statement made to Tynwald this to put out statements which they believe to morning and there is nothing sinister about be correct but Tynwald does not, is usurping that whatsoever, and all we were doing was our powers and I hope in future when state­ sounding the warning and asking for sober ments are made they are made on behalf consideration of all items of expenditure, of Tynwald and not on behalf of the whether capital or revenue, in the future so Finance Board. as to establish the priorities because we Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I feel that look upon Tynwald, this hon. Assembly, as after the last two speakers it would be a being the body which is ultimately respon­ good thing if we were to come back to sible for establishing the priorities. One hon. fundamentals on this instead of listening to member said he would like to see Finance a lot of claptrap. I have a great belief in Board establishing the priorities; this is not Tynwald, I think all of us who have been the role, hon. members, of Finance Board. in Tynwald for a few years know that Tyn­ All Finance Board does is act as a catalyst wald generally comes to the right decision, to Tynwald in this respect and Tynwald is

Policy of Tynwald—Debate Concluded. T40 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

the supreme authority which is responsible long because the hon. member for Council, for establishing those priorities, but all we Mr. Simcocks, gave us a long history lesson ask is that they establish them in the light this morning as to the formation of the of the expenditure which has been com­ Finance Board and to its duties and he used mitted to date and the programme which is the word “orchestrated”, well I am a mem­ before all Boards of Government during ber of the orchestra and I do not mind the next financial year and all we want to being orchestrated in small doses — (laugh­ be ensured of is that if the money in future ter) — but what I object to is when the is to be committed in deficit it is to be conductor of the orchestra does not only committed to the things that we enumerated conduct but writes the music and wants to in our statement, the care of children, the sing solo as well. That is where I think care of the elderly, the provision of special really that we ought to be absolutely clear types of housing and so on, the things that in our minds that Tynwald Court is the we know in our hearts are things which are policy-making body of this Government. It very urgently needed. This is all we did and is not the Finance Board, it is not, horror if we did not do that we would be wrong of horrors, the Executive Council, it is and I think it is foolish and immature of Tynwald Court, and so to that degree I people to criticise us for doing what is only welcome Mr. Speaker’s motion here this our bounden duty. morning and I have no difficulty at all whatsoever in supporting it. I really do Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, I will be believe that at this stage we owe my very brief because I think the big disease colleague here in front of me, the hon. in this Court is repetitiveness. I heard the member for North Douglas, a debt, if I may Chairman of Finance Board this morning say so, in defusing this debate. I was rather with a statement with more than a little sad and sickened a little this morning to see alarm. I am delighted this afternoon to see once again the old spectre of personalities Mr. Radcliife on his feet and admitting coming to the fore in this Court. I think it perhaps he did not use the right vehicle in is to be deplored. I hope we have had our producing it, because I could see no reason blood-letting for the rest of this session. Let at all why this statement could not have us get down to the policies, it is the job of been issued as an aide memoire to members Government to create the climate for busi­ of Tynwald for their deliberation at any ness and the people of the Isle of Man who time, but quite unlike the last speaker, the work to create prosperity, cut out the hon. member for Council, who said this was personaltites and let us get on with the designed only as a warning shot, if you like, policy. for Tynwald members to keep their feet on the ground when discussing things in Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, general. I take the view of the other hon. just a few words. I, too, welcome the member of the Council, Mr. Nivison, when resolution as moved by Mr. Speaker, I think he says that he believes that it was designed everyone has said nearly all that has to be to influence members on certain projects said on it, we agree with all points. I do which will be coming before the Court later not entirely agree with the amendment by today and tomorrow and perhaps next week. Sir John that the retention of the rail and Mr. Crellin: And the next Tynwald, too. tramway systems should be taken off the resolution, that should be left on, it is part Mr. Lowey: Indeed, indeed, but im­ of the tourist scene and wants to be looked mediately aimed at this afternoon or after in no uncertain manner. I would just tomorrow. I think that is wrong, I think like to say, if I may, a few words about that is wrong for the very reasons that have the paragraph about light industries. Every­ been expressed by the hon. member for one is worried about light industry in this East Douglas, Mr. Irving, when he said Island and it is essential that the light that Tynwald Court decides the policy. I am industry policy should be pursued most delighted to hear the hon. member of vigorously, starting in the schoolroom. The Council say that the Finance Board is there, Finance Board are hard up they say, they if you like, not to lay policy lines but to have no surplus but they must spend enough follow out the wishes of Tynwald Court and money to set up a proper career service for that I think needs to be stated loud and our young people. I know of many young

Policy of Tynwald—Debate Concluded. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T41

people, who, when they reach the time to to lead and I think this is important in the take “O” and “A” levels, do not know concept of Tynwald and today I am quite which subject to take to suit them for which sure that the resolution is going to get sup­ job. They have no idea and any money spent port. Let me admit at the outset, I believe there, and Finance Board and Education it is important that the public should be Authority please remember it is money well reassured in respect of our intentions. I spent, it ensures our future in that we will think the public are going to learn today have skilled people, skilled young people, to that we are fulfilling our election promises run light industries in the Isle of Man and and that although members may have come then we will have no need for a job creation to the House as new members and perhaps programme to be set up which seems to be initially found procedures a little odd and the thing now — certainly last winter, this may have been caught out by them in winter, possibly next winter — and it is a relation to the appointments of Committees, thing to be developed, I think that we as a Boards and all the rest of it, this will not Government should have to create manual happen again. The House is developing an jobs to take people off the register when we awareness, an awareness on behalf of the should be training them for light industry public of its role and that role is leadership. and a better class of jobs. I would just say I find it interesting that emanating from in conclusion that this resolution, to my this debate we have learnt that our light mind, is a welcome one in that the populace industry is going into Europe, we have is entitled to be told, reminded if you like, learnt that the Chairman of the Finance that, as the resolution says, their elected Board will meet the members for Ramsey representatives have not forgotten the and discuss the perennial problem, the South pledges they made one year ago. Promenade, and there is much that I think has been of benefit to each and everyone of Sir John Bolton: Your Excellency, two us in the course of the debate, but, equally words or so only relating to the amendment I think we have all welcomed the statement that has been moved by the hon. member by the Chairman of the Finance Board of the Council, Mr. Kerruish. I did say this himself that he wants guidance and would morning that I had no intention of voting be happy to learn the views of the Court. for the resolution, I can only say this, that I think each and every one of us very much if the amendments which have been moved appreciates that statement of opinion. To and seconded are passed then nobody in his have the unbridled criticism of Sir John of right mind could fail to support the resolu­ oneself and the resolution I think is some­ tion and in that event I shall certainly be thing one cannot object to. I welcome it voting for it. because if you have got that you are trying The Speaker: Your Excellency, first of all to do something positive, I find that the I am indebted to hon. members of the Court amendment that he puts forward would for the opportunity they themselves have water down the policy that I believe this created of reiterating policy. There is no Court, and I think the House of Keys in question since we were first elected here particular, stand for. I do not think we that many of the things that we have tried want that aspect of it watered down at all. to do and have been united in our desire to It has been suggested that there has really achieve have been frustrated along the way. been no new impetus from this House. I It has been made clear today in the course could hardly accept that and I can well of what I believe to be a most interesting recall the days when predecessors here have discussion that the Finance Board are the been subjected to the cry of “Wolf” when agents of the Court who will carry out the Budgets were put forward and millions of Court's wishes. I will not pursue that to any surplus were in the “kitty”. Work that could further extent, I will merely say this, that have been done was not done. My hon. I believe that this House of Keys is a namesake, Mr. Kerruish, has, as usual, dedicated House of Keys who are not going moved an amendment. He objects to small to be content to be pushed aside in their bits of wording, “apathy” and “com­ thinking and who will not be prepared to placency”, my constituents know how I feel, go along with, shall I say, a diminution of my learned colleague’s constituents know issues on which they hold clear and strong how we both feel on this and I feel that views. It is a House of Keys that is prepared most of the people in the Island know very

Policy of Tynwald—Debate Concluded. T42 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 well what the attitudes were and I am quite For: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, P. Rad- happy to accept the deletion of those words cliffe, Callin, Cringle, Kermeen and because, quite frankly, they matter little at MacDonald — 7. this stage, we are going on into the future Against: Messrs. J. J. Radcliffe, J. N. and that is the really important thing, so I would accept the hon. member’s amendment Radcliffe, Dr. Mann, Messrs. Watterson, but I do not accept his contention that, for Lowey, Walker, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. instance, references in this statement today Moore, Ward, Craine, Delaney, Irving, could be accepted as factual references. Mrs. Hanson, Messrs. Christian, Swales When you relate it to education you find and the Speaker— 16. there is a possibility stressed there of educa­ The Speaker: Your Excellency, the amend­ tion being placed in jeopardy if we pursue ment fails to carry in the House of Keys, certain lines, I do not think that this is seven votes being cast in favour and 16 true and I would not accept his contention votes against. that it is real. I could go on at length on what other people have said. We have In the Council— had reference to “Mein Kempf” and the For: The Lord Bishop, Sir John Bolton, “Thoughts of Chairmain Mao” through the Messrs. Crellin, Crowe, Kerruish and mouthpiece of the hon. member for Peel, Simcocks — 6. or the people of Peel, but irrespective of whatever references have been made today Against: Messrs. Quayle and Nivison — 2. I would be content at this stage to say I am pleased that the House has shown that The Governor: In the Council, six for and it has the fullest intention of honouring the two against so the Branches are in disagree­ promises made to the electorate, that we are ment and therefore the amendment fails to going ahead with drive and determination carry. I now put the resolution as amended to do those things which we believe are by the first amendment. Will those in favour right and those things are summarised in please say aye; against, no. this document and without abridging it in A division was called for and voting any way that is our programme for the resulted as follows:— coming year. If we can add to it all the better but these are guide lines and they are In the Keys— guide lines for the Manx people to reassure For: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, J. J. them of intent, to reassure them that the Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Dr. Mann, Government they elected is a true one. Messrs. Callin, Watterson, Lowey, Walker, Cringle, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. The Governor: Hon. members, there are Moore, Ward, Craine, Delaney, Irving, two amendments to the motion as moved Mrs. Hanson, Messrs. MacDonald, by the hon. Mr. Speaker. First, that pro­ Christian, Swales and the Speaker — 21. posed and seconded on the preamble to the motion so that it would read: “The Manx Against: Messrs. P. Radcliffe and Kermeen people clearly indicated their support for — 2 . a progressive programme.” Will those in The Speaker: Your Excellency, the resolu­ favour of that amendment please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The amend­ tion carries in the House of Keys, 21 votes being cast in favour and two votes against. ment is therefore carried. The second amendment concerns paragraph, sub-para­ In the Council— graph 7, and the deletion of the words “and the retention of the remaining pattern For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Quayle, of unique rail and tramways systems.” Will Nivison, Crowe, Kerruish and Simcocks those in favour of that amendment please — 6 . say aye; against, no. Against: Sir John Bolton and Mr. Crellin — 2 . A division was called for and voting resulted as follows:— The Governor: In the Council, six in favour of the resolution, two against. The In the Keys— resolution, as amended, therefore carries.

Policy of Tynwald—Debate Concluded. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T43

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE LEGISLATION The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. (APPLICATION) (AMENDMENT) members? ORDER 1977; It was agreed. CUSTOMS AND EXCISE LEGISLATION (APPLICATION) (AMENDMENT) (No. 2) ORDER 1977; HYDROCARBON OIL, ETC. (EXCISE) CUSTOMS AND EXCISE LEGISLATION ACT 1974 (AMENDMENT) ORDER (APPLICATION) ORDER 1977 1977 — APPROVED. — APPROVED. The Governor: Item number 9. The The Governor: That brings us to items Chairman of the Finance Board. numbers 6, 7 and 8 on the Agenda. I call on Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg the Chairman of the Finance Board. to move:— Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg That the Hydrocarbon Oil, Etc. (Excise) to move:— Act 1974 (Amendment) Order 1977 made by the Finance Board on 28th September 1977 That the Customs and Excise Legislation be and the same is hereby approved. (Application) (Amendment) Order 1977 made by the Finance Board on 28th Sep­ This is in reference basically to what hap­ tember 1977 be and the same is hereby pened regarding the hydrocarbon oil situa­ approved. tion, and this order was made under section That the Customs and Excise Legislation 22 of the Hydrocarbon Oil, Etc. (Excise) (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order Act 1974. Apart from the reduction of duty 1977 made by the Finance Board on 28th on light hydrocarbon oils which took effect September 1977 be and the same is hereby on 8th August last, in line with a similar approved. reduction in the United Kingdom, the rates That the Customs and Excise Legislation of duty remain unchanged. This is basically (Application) Order 1977 made by the just to confirm what we have already done. Finance Board on 28th September 1977_ be I beg to move. and the same is hereby approved. The Speaker: Your Excellency, in sup­ I would like to say, very briefly, Your Excel­ porting I think we would all wish to pay lency, that all these resolutions regarding tribute to our Consumer Council in getting Customs and Excise are just to bring into the price of petroleum to a realistic level, line what we are now being compelled to after all the confusion on hydrocarbon rates do in the Isle of Man. of duty before. Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I would The Governor: Ts that agreed, hon. like an explanation for the Customs and members? Excise Legislation (Application) Order; it says in paragraph (b) that the applied legis­ It was agreed. lation shall apply to the Island as part of the law of the Island, subject to the VALUE ADDED TAX AND CAR TAX following modifications — for “Intervention ORDER 1977 — APPROVED. Board for Agriculture” shall be substituted “the Treasurer of the Isle of Man”. Does The Governor: Item number 10. The this mean that the Treasury of the Isle of Chairman of the Finance Board. Man are going to be responsible for inter­ Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg vention buying of agricultural produce if to move:— and when it comes into the Isle of Man? That the Value Added Tax and Car Tax Mr. P. Radcliffe: No, it is basically the Order 1977 made by the Finance Board on recovery of penalties and I would point out 21st September 1977 be and the same is that if we have not got anybody appointed hereby approved. in the Isle of Man to do it, the Isle of Man Again this is in compliance with the United Government can lose, in the import duties Kingdom Finance Acts and we are again on agricultural levies, £930,000 a year. We required to bring our situation regarding have to, ourselves, appoint somebody to do Value Added Tax and Car Tax Order into it and we have appointed the Treasurer. line with theirs. I beg to move.

Customs and Excise Legislation (Application) (Amendment) Order 1977; Customs and Excise Legislation (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 1977; Customs and Excise Legislation (Application) Order 1977—Approved. — Hydrocarbon Oil, Etc. (Excise) Act 1974 (Amend­ ment) Order 1977—Approved. — Value Added Tax and Car Tax Order 1977—Approved. T44 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

Mr. Crellin: I beg to second, Your with sensible public policies. However, we Excellency. recognised that there was little prospect for The Governor: Is that agreed? growth in the world economy and that inter­ national unemployment is likely to continue It was agreed. at historically high levels. The Isle of Man cannot be immune from such events, and we anticipated that our own unemployment TEMPORARY EMPLOYMENT — would be greater than in previous years and SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE that even the strongest sections of our — APPROVED. economy might be adversely affected. I do The Governor: Item number 11. The not wish to exaggerate the situation for Chairman of the Finance Board. the total unemployment figures do not tell the whole story for in the total there are Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg many who, for one reason or another, would to move:— remain, out of work whatever the level of That Tynwald — the economic activity. However, it was con­ (1) authorises the employment of about 115 cluded that there were some who wanted additional men to work on various work and naturally we therefore wanted to Government Schemes during the coming try and produce schemes which would be winter. productive and all Boards and Department (2) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of of Government were therefore asked to plan Man to apply out of the current revenue their existing work programmes, so that as of this Isle during the year ending 31st much as possible could be carried out during March 1978 a sum not exceeding £130,000 for the above purpose. (Such the winter period of high seasonal unem­ sum of £130,000 to be additional to the ployment, and produce additional schemes amount voted by Tynwald on the 17th which could be undertaken this winter. The May 1977 for the purpose of carrying response to this request was excellent, and into effect the services provided by one was faced with the difficult task of Tynw ald.) selecting the most beneficial schemes. The Government policy is to do everything basis of selection was that schemes should possible to ensure the long-term strength of be intrinsically valuable to the Island and our economy and, at the same time, to should have a relatively low material con­ assist those in immediate need. Short-term tent and should utilise labour that was cosmetic measures have been avoided and readily available and in total would not we have made the Island attractive to produce an excessive demand for additional potential employers by creating a stable finance. Details of these proposed schemes fiscal and political climate and with the use have been circulated. Members will see that of various incentives designed to encourage a total of 2,559 weeks of work will be the growth of healthy enterprise, which has created at a cost of £130,000. Whilst it is been spoken about on many occasions this unfortunate that, along with so many other morning. At the same time our health, countries, we must resort to temporary education and social security standards of employment measures, I do feel that the service have been and are still being steadily schemes could produce tangible benefit for raised. Local labour is protected with the the Island at a minimum cost. As I have Control of Employment Act, and it is hoped already said this morning, we have contacted that the new training schemes will alleviate and visited the various Boards and you the problem of unemployment among the will notice, by the sheet supplied to you, young and simultaneously provide a skilled that we have put emphasis on two Boards work force for future development. Today specifically. We think the Forestry Board I have already emphasised the need to could produce products that could be made recognise that our resources are limited available to the public for sale, for purchase. and 1 have said that we must spend them Having visited, as I said earlier, one of these wisely and with a view to future prosperity. plantations it seems obvious to me that In one of our economic planning and within these plantations a terrific amount of appraisal discussions earlier this year we work can be done. Timber standards can be determined to continue with our past em­ improved enormously and a lot of the “dead phasis on strengthening the private sector wood”, shall I say, can be brought out of

Temporary Employment—Supplementary Vote—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T45

the plantations and made available to the figures for males unemployed last week public for purchase and this will bring in actually went down, it actually went down. a certain amount of revenue for the work There were four less men unemployed on done. The other main Board that we con­ our register last week than what there were sidered worthy of giving support at this for the comparable week of the previous stage, may be to your surprise, since the year. That, to my mind, is something which Finance Board gets such criticism on matters we must always bear in mind. Be careful of transport, the Manx Electric Railway when you are looking at these statistics, and who did say that their line, especially from be careful particularly when you read the the Bungalow to the top of Snaefell, was national press or look at the television and getting into such a state of disrepair that if they talk about an unemployment problem, something was not done about it urgently bear it in relation to ourselves. We have an it was possible that within a year or two unemployment problem in the Isle of Man this section would not be passed by the and the unemployment problem on the Isle inspectors who have to give a certificate of Man at the present time primarily each year to operate. Again I would like appears to be going to be with the ladies’ to emphasise the point that Tynwald made section for this next winter. I note from the the decision that we would keep open the job creation programme whiclr has been line from Douglas to Laxey and Laxey to given round to us this morning from the Snaefell and therefore it is our duty, as a Finance Board said, in fact, only four jobs Finance Board, to try and keep this line have been created for women in this winter operating and we did therefore agree with period so far. Out of the 115 jobs which are the points put by the Manx Electric Railway being taken here, four, those relating to the Board that they were in need of these men Treasury, I take it could actually be given to improve this section of the line and this to female labour — two with clerical ex­ was agreed that it could be done. I beg to perience and two persons for 26 weeks. I move the resolution standing in my name. welcome the resolution. Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I rise to Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, support the motion but in doing so, and I naturally I would support it. The only hope I will not be guilty of going over thing I am rather disturbed about is that ground which has already been gone over the entire group of people being taken on today, I would like to say to some extent are the unskilled labourers and yet the last that we must be careful, we must be careful figures I saw at the end of September, 68 when we go on stop/go measures with em­ per cent, of the unemployed were skilled or ployment. Here we are reaching the situa­ semi-skilled and we have allowed nothing tion — and I am welcoming the motion in at all for that majority group of people. I front of us today — of a stop/go measure. know some of them are car drivers — pre­ There is only one way which we can pro­ sumably they drive cars in the summer and gress in the Isle of Man to have a full level are hoping not to drive anything all winter of employment all the time and that is to — but I hope that this can be looked at have Government schemes on a regularly more carefully and I hope we can get figures based footing and to provide jobs which as to who these people are. Most of my have something to sell at the end. In other colleagues, I find, in the Keys, like myself, words, you have got to have either an would like to know, especially in our own industry which has got a product to sell or constituencies, who are these people who to put something into your agricultural cannot work, who have not worked for a industry or the tourist industry here, a long time, because we personally know most commodity which you can sell, that is the of them probably and I think it is time only thing that we can do on the Isle of Government had a very close look at Man. I welcome the idea that we should people. create these as a stop/go and I appreciate Mr. Irving: You cannot get skilled. that it is only stop/go for the winter period Mr. MacDonald: You cannot get skilled. to help us with the unemployment situation Pochin’s, on the building site at Peel at the — I am not going to say the unemployment moment, for example, and Kelly Brothers, problem. Members may be aware or they and Parkinsons last week were all adver­ may not be aware that the unemployment tising for tradesmen they cannot get, and yet

Temporary Employment—Supplementary Vote—Approved. T46 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

you still see them on the register. I think it genuinely want work will be able to benefit is time the members of the Court were under these schemes? brought into the confidence of the Board of Social Security to look at people in their Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, I am own areas, because I think it is completely quite certain that every member of this wrong that people should be able to opt out hon. Assembly will support this resolution. for the winter period when perhaps there is I would simply like to congratulate all con­ something useful they could do for the cerned with it in the speed in which this community. has been tabled. We had this problem raising its head last winter and several The Speaker: I support the resolution, months elapsed before action was taken. I Your Excellency, and I also support Mr. think we have learnt from our experience Cringle’s point of view very strongly that and it is gratifying to know that Finance it is imperative we must look for the long­ Board, right at the first sitting of this hon. term solution and we must lose no time Court, have been able to table a resolution in doing so. One tiny point, in relation to which I know will be seen by the public it. I notice the hon. Chairman referred to and particularly those unfortunate people provision on the Douglas/Laxey/'Snaefell without a job, as an earnest of Tynwald’s line and said how happy they were to desire to grasp this problem. The main accommodate the Manx Electric Railway reason I got to my feet is that I was very Board in this connection. Is this a positive much struck by the comment made by the requirement? My point in asking is this, hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Radcliffe, and that on occasion working on the Snaefell it was also touched upon by the hon. line is quite impossible in the winter months member for Peel, Mr. MacDonald, namely and if the requirement is going to be a the very anomalous and rather undesirable positive one the Manx Electric Railway may situation where we have a lot of unem­ be in difficulty having men sitting up there ployed men and yet we have vacancies for in a tram all day sheltering from the wind, skilled personnel. This is a matter that has which can happen, so can they put them occasioned concern to the Industrial Ad­ on to the Ramsey section in that sort of visory Council for some little time and I weather? (Laughter.) I am not joking about am happy to learn today, from the Chair­ that, Your Excellency. If any of you try on man of the Board of Social Security, with the top there, you will find that there are whom we have been working in close con­ weather conditions which make it quite tact, that the scheme that we have framed impossible for the men to operate and there for apprentices within the manufacturing has got to be a degree of mobility and that industry is in an advanced stage and I has got to be understood. My other question sincerely hope that this will be approved is this — can you help me, please and I am and will be of benefit to local industrialists sure Dr. Mann would also welcome help in the not-far-distant future, but I would on this, about the spelling of “Squeeza particularly like to emphasise that although Glen”? I can commend Squeezer’s Glen for that will take a little time before it will be all of you at Laxey, it is a wonderful spot, implemented and before the fruits of it will but where did you get the spelling and be felt by people in that particular category could you explain how you put this inter­ becoming qualified to operate in a skilled pretation on it? capacity, we have, at the present moment, Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, for those a scheme which we brought into operation people who are unemployed and genuinely as recently as August of this year whereby want to be in employment it must be a very through the auspices of the Industrial Ad­ demoralising experience having to join the visory Council we can give assistance to “dole” queue and for the benefit of those industrialists to retrain personnel. This is people this is obviously a very, very wel­ a different scheme altogether to the ap­ come resolution which deserves the full prentices scheme I am talking of, which support of the whole Court. However, in is concerned with men who have to serve order that Government will get a fair two, three, perhaps five years apprenticeship return for this expenditure could I ask the so that they can be qualified men at the Chairman of the Finance Board, will any end of the road. We feel, at this particular directive be given that only those who juncture, especially against the increasing

Temporary Employment—Supplementary Vote—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T47

unemployment problem, that we should Naturally, as Chairman of the Forestry have a scheme whereby we can offer incen­ Board I am very grateful to the Chairman tives, assistance to a company who are of the Finance Board for this proposal. fitting new equipment and wish to retrain From our point of view it seems very good personnel, may be existing personnel or new indeed and we congratulate him. personnel. There may be people coming out The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, fol­ of the construction industry quite happy to lowing Mrs. Quayle, may I just say that go into a manufacturing concern but are whilst I welcome her hopes I do not believe not qualified. As an earnest of Tynwald’s it will work because I sit with her on the desire to help, the Council have offered to Appeals Committee for the work permit those people, and we have circulated all and how often have we heard there the manufacturing industry within the Island, employer who has come to us requesting that we are prepared to consider applica­ that someone from outside the Island be tions for retraining and we hope that in given a work permit because they have some measure this too will have a beneficial been unable to attract someone from within effect upon the employment situation. the Island simply because they would not Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, as Chair­ work. man of the Permits Appeal Committee I Mr. Delaney: What are the wages? have been much concerned by the number The Lord Bishop: With respect, the wages of positions that we are unable to fill with in many cases are good. I think here is a Manx workers and consequently I spent an moral issue. I do not believe this is going hour last week in one of the offices of the to work so easily as some members may Board of Social Security looking at the list think because, at the moment, there is no of male unemployed people, Manx workers, pressure upon a man who is unemployed who are on the list at the moment and those and who is offered work and refuses it. We are not the professionally qualified ones had a case last week, did we not, where because they do not normally get their indeed we had decided in the end the only employment through our Board. The names way to make this young man work was of course did not come into it, it was probably to bring him before the courts. It simply assessed for me whether it appeared takes a very long time and I think it would that the person wanted a job or whether he be wrong for us today here to believe that did not want to work. Of course, as the by virtue of this very handsome help and Chairman of the Board has said, a number I welcome it enormously, I am sure we are of the men are out potato picking at this setting a lead for the western world where moment. Where there was any doubt as to there is so much unemployment, to aid whether a man wanted to work or not he people to re-discover a pride in themselves was given the benefit of assuming that he by taking home a wage-packet instead of wanted a job and the answer was in statistics queuing at the labour exchange. Many of that 60 per cent, of that list, the men are the people who are unemployed, I believe, unlikely to be employed this winter. The here will still say no when they are given reasons varied from things like health the opportunity to work and I think we problems right through to sheer bloody- have got to recognise that and unless we mindedness. We did not go into the women are going to be very harsh the situation will in detail but it was thought that about 50 not improve. per cent, of the women perhaps came into that category — 50 per cent, very clearly Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, the glen wanted jobs. It has been touched on moti­ above the Laxey Wheel — the first person I vating people to work but up to now it has remember giving that a designation was the been talk and I believe that it is imperative former member of the Legislative Council, that there should really be action both in Mr. Ffinlo Corkhill, and I can assure you the, schools and even, if necessary, in the that the pronunciation or, as he would call homes to get these people who go to this it, “pronounciation” of this was exactly as office to the “dole” queue and clearly do it was spelt, Squeeza, but on the other and not work, to get them into the frame of much more serious point, because I do not mind that they want jobs and then they will want to gain the reputation for being pick them up and do them and stay there. facetious too much in this hon. Court, is to

Temporary Employment—Supplementary Vote—Approved. T48 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 endorse what the Chairman of the Board of reason that English people wanting work Social Security has said on the necessity for permits will take them is because they have a policy of stability of employment. Here I got no other choice. It is either that or get must also give credit to the introduction of out and when they go back they have got two schemes for apprenticeships — one in more trouble to go to, so let us not all jump the manufacturing industry and the other in up and say we have got lazy people. Every­ the construction industry — but I would like one has got lazy people, we happen to have to see the hon. member of Council, Mr. our share, but most of the people who are Kerruish, who has a particular role to play unemployed in the Isle of Man wish to in this, look into the question, too, of work but they will only work for the right similar schemes for the service industries, money and the argument about whether particularly catering and indeed motor they get more on the “dole” comes into it. vehicle maintenance. The latter will be re­ Of course a man is not going to work if he quired more and more once his vehicle is going to be as well off on the unemploy­ testing depot comes into operation and, at ment queue and doing a “foreigner” here the moment, I think the burden is carried and there; it is commonsense. No-one in this very much here by the garage proprietors Court would do different. Therefore, I say themselves and in order to absorb, into a that all this is doing is creating jobs tem­ skilled trade, a lot of young people, particu­ porarily, but what we have got to do is look larly young people leaving school, I hope forward to the future of making sure a man to see some scheme come forward to assist gets a fair return for his day’s labours and those people to do it. I know they do a lot that will cure unemployment. in sending people away for training courses, but they have to pay a lot themselves and Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, there is it all comes out of the profits, although the just one point upon which I would like benefit is to the Island as a whole. clarification, listening to the debate. People are mentioned who will not take a job when Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I am a it is offered to them. I was always under the member of the Work Permits Committee impression, and maybe I am wrong, that if and very pleased to be so, and I want to a person is directed to a job and he refuses congratulate the Finance Board, for a to take it, they had to appear before a change, in getting this done because, as has Committee and if they did not give a very been pointed out, there are some people in good reason why they did not take the job the Isle of Man who will not work. There they are penalised. This can happen twice are some people in the Isle of Man who or, am I right, three times, and if it happens want to work and there are some people in three times they have six weeks’ unemploy­ the Isle of Man who are not being paid ment benefit taken off? Well, surely that has enough to work. Let us get this quite clear. some sort of braking system on these A word has been used this afternoon once people who will not work? again in 1977, “dole” queue. It is the un­ Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, just in employment queue, they are not there answer to Mrs. Hanson. Yes, she is perfectly queuing because they have to queue, they correct. If a person is sent for employment have not got an allocated time individually and refuses to take the employment and the to get there so they have to form a queue. employer would say that he was perfectly I believe that the sooner we get over this prepared to take that gentleman, well, then idea of looking down on those people who he does not get “dole” for six weeks. are unemployed the sooner we will solve the unemployment problem. There seems to Mr. Lowey: Yes, Your Excellency, I am be something built into this thing — a man a little perturbed at the complacency on this is unemployed and that is automatically a subject. We seem once again to be in the stigma on him. There are lots of people in position of “well, we have got a few the Isle of Man who will work if the money renegades who will not work, who do not is forthcoming and I can tell you, Your want to work, who want to stay home for Excellency, and I can tell this hon. Court the winter, the cold months, and just show that some of the wages being offered over their noses outside when the sun comes up here to Manx workers are far below what next May”. That is not the true picture. We is acceptable living standards and the only have got some of them, of course we have

Temporary Employment—Supplementary Vote—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T49

got some of them, but that is not the prob­ this time. The only other thing that 1 want lem. The problem is unemployment. I am to raise is really with regard to the young. rather perturbed at my colleague from Are there any plans being prepared, has Rushen, the Chairman of the Board of there been any breakdown in the figures of Social Security, to say that, ah, well, em­ the unemployed to categorise young people ployment figures this last week are four less because I cannot agree more with the state­ than last year. I must remind this Court ment made by Mrs. Quayle when she says that last year . . . “habits are formed in young people early” Mr. Cringle: Just the men. and I think it would be a crime and a blot Mr. Lowey: Just the men, all right — the if we, on this Island, do not encourage the total figures no doubt are more? Yes, indeed work habit, if you like, in our young. If — the point being, of course, that last year, there are any, if there are any and Mr. after Christmas, as the result of my very Cringle is doing his best to catch my eye — good friend from Ramsey, we had to intro­ yes, well, “In my opinion 51 young males duce emergency measures. I thought when and 43 females who are under the age of we had that debate where we decided or we 18 are on our lists last week”, so we have chose not to, to set up a different Board to nearly got 100 young people there, 94 to handle it, that this year was going to be be precise, and I can see nothing on that different. Well, we are being different, we list that can be actually said that young are getting in a little earlier and not wanting people can do that particular type of job. to be accused of nit-picking so to speak — I think we are really putting an emphasis the hon. Chairman, when he moved it, did on the wrong end. I really do believe that say that we have been circulated with the we really must shake ourselves from the complacency which I still believe, Your papers, with the figures and the jobs — well we got this at seven-minutes-past-eleven in Excellency, to be surrounding this particular this Court this morning. I cannot see why item. we could not have been given a copy with Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I will the breakdown a lot earlier than this reply very briefly to the main points. I think morning. I am very disappointed, very, very the main emphasis this afternoon is whether disappointed to hear the Lord Bishop say or not the Government is doing anything to that this sort of thing is a lead to the create permanent employment, None of in western world. It is going back 20 years, it wants to see what can be classified as winter is going back to the old-fashioned winter works schemes as such if we can get works schemes, because that is what exactly encouragement from other companies to they are. I agree. How can I not support employ them and this is what the hon. this, how can I? I must support it because, Chairman of the Industrial Council has as Mr. Cringle says, it is a stop/go to meet informed you they are doing in industry. this position and, of course, we agree ab­ Reference has been made to the apprentice­ solutely with him when he comes along and ship scheme. We have already met various says that there is no substitute for long-term Boards of Tynwald and discussed the planning and that is where I come, really, apprenticeship scheme and approved them to one of the points I want to raise, one financially to give assistance to various or two points really. Are these the only aspects of the community to encourage schemes that will be brought forward this them to take on apprentices. We are doing winter to meet the problem, and also I am all we possibly can to encourage the develop­ concerned, not only so much about the ment of new industries, but you must not ladies — Mr. Cringle mentioned that there forget the fact that this hon. Chamber itself are only four jobs on this for the ladies and tried to pour water, not so very long ago, primarily the problem in female labour is on the new residents policy of the Isle of more acute this year than last year. I Man. The new residents policy of the Isle wonder really what prospects we offer the of Man created our employment boom and female population? I politically took quite a hammering on the Mr. Anderson: Marry one. (Laughter.) election prior to this because of my support Mr. Lowey: That may add to your prob­ for the new residents policy. What did it lems. (Interruptions and laughter.) I am not do? It created not only expansion in the often short of a word but he has got me building industry, it created expansion in

Temporary Employment—Supplementary Vote—Approved. T50 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 nearly every other industry associated with certain, at the present time, that the Board it, whether it be plumbing, or painting or of Social Security are looking very closely gardening or whatever it may be and this is at this matter. As the hon. Lord Bishop what brought the people in. The new has said, only quite recently he had the residents policy then went into a sort of situation of a young man who about five back-water for a time and without doing times, I think, came back and said he had the Isle of Man any detrimental effect, or been told he was not wanted for work and having any detrimental effect on the Island he was quite capable of doing it but he whatsoever. If you travel around the Isle got the impression or the public got the of M an, even today, you will find that there impression that he was a fellow that no are scores of acres in the Isle of Man employer would have anyhow. I understand already with planning approval on, already that there is likely to be prosecution taken with the main services all in stagnating. Is against him because he was not maintaining this a good thing? I would rather see some himself. If we can get this attitude that acknowledgement at the present moment of people are going to be informed that they where we have got the benefit from and are expected to get up and get on and do instead of sort of sitting back and saying, something then we would have a Govern­ well, do we or do we not want new resi­ ment to be applauded for trying to en­ dents, I would say let us try and get some courage this to be done. I beg to move. more new residents even if it is just under The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. a controlled policy, to fulfil what was members? tabulated at that time for the development, to get these areas of land that are stag­ It was agreed. nating done. It is no use sitting down here The Governor: We have Petitions at half- and criticising everybody and saying we are past-four, hon. members. I suggest we not getting this done if you are going to adjourn therefore for 15 minutes. pour wate'- on schemes that are going to The Court adjourned. help to do it. We, as a Finance Board, as I have said, have got three main objects — to encourage industry and we will give PETITION OF PEEL TOWN whatever we can in assistance to do it; we COMMISSIONERS TO BORROW encourage the people who are prepared to £104,919 15 RE LAYING OUT OF take on apprentices and we are doing this ROADS, ET CETERA — wholeheartedly and considering it quite BALLAQUANE — APPROVED. reguiarly. Coming back to the point that The Governor: Hon. members, we will Mr. Speaker made about these men working turn to Petitions now. Item number 43, the on the Snaefell line, I said that they could Petition of the Peel Town Commissioners. work from Douglas to Laxey and from I call on the Chairman of the Local Govern­ Laxey to Snaefell. I would hope whoever is ment Board. managing them would have the common- sense, like I would do if I were in charge Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, in re­ oF them, to see that when the weather spect of the Petition of the Peel Town was fit they would go out on the Snaefell Commissioners— (a) for approval to the line and when it was not fit they would get laying out of certain new roads, sewers and down and work on the line from Douglas lighting installations on land owned by the to Laxey. Now, on a lighter point, you may Petitioners at Ballaquane, Peel; and (b) for not be aware of this but Mr. Speaker and authority to borrow a sum not exceeding I used to circulate quite a lot together in £104,919-15, repayable within a period of our younger days and possibly one of the 60 years from the date of borrowing, for the reasons why we call it Squeeza Glen was said purpose. I beg to move:— the activities that went on around that area, That the Prayer of the Petition be and the at that time. (Laughter.) Concern has been same is hereby granted. also expressed by certain members. The Development works are to be carried out hon. member for Middle spoke about people by the Petitioners by direct labour on land who genuinely wanted work. Well it is very at Ballaquane, Peel, purchased recently by difficult to lay down the law or try to decide them from Stonegate Securities Limited with who genuinely wants it or not, but I feel the approval of Tynwald, comprising of the

Petition of Peel Town Commissioners to Borrow £104.919-15 Re Laying Out of Road, Et Cetera—Ballaquane—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T51

laying out of new roads, footpaths, sewers, annual loan charges fall in the general rate lighting installations and preparation of 49 fund of the Petitioners. The 60-year period plots for private housing, being the maxi­ has been included here as a safeguard mum number possible. As stated in the against the unlikely possibly of some plots Board’s report, preference is to be given to remaining unsold and, of course, in the young married couples in the Petitioners’ event the Commissioners would probably district and only in the event of the demand come forward to this hon. Court with a in this connection proving insufficient will further Petition for a different use for that other applicants be considered. Slight varia­ land. The Board fully supports and com­ tions in the size of plots will occur, of mends the proposals under this Petition and course, and the average plot size is 560 I hope they will further the end that many square yards. It will be noted from the other of us in the Local Government Board are item on the Agenda that the sale price of looking for, that is further homes for Manx £5 • 50 per square yard means the approxi­ people to be owned by themselves. 1 have mate price per plot will be £3,000. The cost the honour to beg to move the Petition of the various works by direct labour is standing in my name. estimated at £81,313 ■ 73 and the addition of Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, this is the approximate sums for architects’ and probably one of the best sites left in the legal fees, electrical services, street lighting, Peel area. It is rather interesting to know water mains and fire hydrants as set out on that demands are now coming in for the page 1 of the report now before you, sites. Since people have heard that the new bringing the total sum to £104,919-15, the high school will be ready in two years we amount for which the borrowing powers are already getting requests in to the Town are now sought. Planning approval in prin­ Board for sites on this new estate. The views ciple has already been obtained and, in fact, from the front of the estate are probably full approval is now being forwarded to the some of the best in the Isle of Man, when Commissioners. Although for the purposes you look from the main road right across of evidence of hearing the Petitioners’ archi­ the open land, which is under covenant, to tect indicated the phasing of the work and the Castle and harbour, and the sea beyond, the balancing of the income from the sale and the mountains of Mourne on one side of plots against expenditure over a period and the hills of Scotland on the other side. of 10 years. The Petitioners, since the It is a magnificent site and I have no doubt hearing and the preparation of the Board’s at all that it will sell very well, and I will report, have stated that, in fact, they antici­ second it. pate that preparation and sale of plots will Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, one obser­ occur in a much shorter period. As stated in vation on it. Is it intended to sell the plots the report, the initial outlay will be high of an average size, that is about 560 square because of the necessity to provide the total yards? These are comparatively small plots public utilities to the site, but it is estimated and will probably, or could probably, lead that the completion of the sale and after to small or minimum size houses. It may the payment of legal fees a credit amount well be in some cases better to put two of of £3,000 will remain. With regard to these plots together and get some better type annual charges estimated in the Petition as of dwelling on them. One of the faults that £9,883-57, the Petitioners have explained many outside observers do pass about many that, in practice, borrowing will, of course, of the buildings that have gone on since the be made only as required and throughout war is that many of them are too close to­ the progress of the work, profits from the gether and the houses are too small. We do sale of each year will be set against expendi­ not want to create throughout the Island ture and the increased borrowings, whilst too many estates where the houses are of a any surplus will be used to extinguish the very small nature and are too close together. sinking fund set up. The Petitioners, there­ That is the only observation, it is a very fore, anticipate that no loan charges will be commendable scheme but I though that the outstanding at the completion of the self- plots of 560 square yards were quite small. financing scheme. Only in the event of Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, this brings failure to sell the building plots or to pro­ to my mind just one little point, particularly vide, according to the programme, will the as the member of Council mentioned this

Petition of Peel Town Commissioners to Borrow £104.919-15 Re Laying Out of Road, Et Cetera—Ballaquane—Approved. T52 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 smallness of the area involved. In lots of something in planning we are making a council estate developments in this area special note of at the moment and I can there seems to be neglected a turning-area, assure you that there will be sufficient and I have been in areas in Peel, in Cronk turning area within this new development. Coar or round about there, where a lot of Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, before the delivery vans still deliver in a normal way, hon. Chairman concludes, I would like him and there has been many an occasion when to confirm that this plot size that he has children have been in danger of being run spoken about is eight to the acre from the over by the fact that people have to go in plot size, but when you are putting the and reverse. I hope that, Mr. Chairman, you roads in it is considerably less than eight to have noted this. I do not know whether it the acre. I would have thought, quite has been talked about before, but I do think honestly, that this is a very generous urban that all estates should have an area where development. I would not look upon this as a lorry or van can go in and make one being a small area at all. I would think this complete turn without having to reverse, would work out about seven to the acre, especially in areas or estates where you are which is a very generous sort of urban size. talking about developments for children. The Governor: Is that agreed? Mr. Anderson: Yes, Your Excellency, in answer to the hon. member of Council, Mr. It was agreed. Nivison, actually these plots do vary in size, but in fact it has been found that in many estates — I know the Mountain View estate PETITION OF PEEL TOWN in Peel, which was a private development, COMMISSIONERS FOR AUTHORITY was developed with gardens with some TO SELL LAND — BALLAQUANE depth. In fact, they have been found to be — APPROVED. undesirable. A lot of people do not want to have a big amount of garden to look The Governor: Item 44. The Chairman of after and I think it is found, generally the Local Government Board. speaking, that the smaller plot is more com­ Mr. Anderson: In respect of the Petition mendable and, after all, today we must not of the Peel Town Commissioners for autho­ lose the sight of the fact that we have a rity to sell certain land at Ballaquane, Peel, limited amount of land for use in the Island. as building plots to private individuals I believe that the future development must subject to appropriate conditions, the price take this into consideration to some extent. at which such plots shall be sold to be not Land use is important and we must not lose less than £5-50 per square yard and to sight of that, and in relation to that I would include the proportion of the costs and rather see a smaller plot and maybe a play charges incurred or to be incurred by the area, separate from the house, where Petitioners in constructing roads, sewers and children can collect together and play out­ drains thereon. I beg to move:— side the, sort of, boundary of their own house, rather than have a garden big enough That the Prayer of the Petition be and the same is hereby granted. for them to play individually. In answer to the hon. member, my colleague, Mr. Quirk, Yes, Your Excellency, my remarks on the there is no doubt about it that this is a previous Petition relate to this and, again, lesson that the new Board has learned as this is what I mentioned of £5-50 per square far as turning areas are concerned, we have yard. The Board have just made sure that found as the hon. member, Mr. Callin, is they have the necessary safeguards and very aware of this in his own area, that we covenants and options. In the case of some­ are running into some great difficulty where, body not deciding to build, we do not allow in fact, this mistake has been made and we such a development. They have got to sell have tried to resolve it in the Onchan area, them back to the Board where they bought especially from the fire-fighting point of them, and these covenants are being taken view. It is absolutely imperative that estates care of. I beg to move, Your Excellency. are developed in such a way that the fire The Governor: Is that agreed? service can get in and get turned round without any hindrance whatever, and this is It was agreed.

Petition of Peel Town Commissioners for Authority to Sell Land—Ballaquane—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T53

PETITION OF MAYOR, ALDERMEN and dangerous. Of course the vandals will AND BURGESSES OF DOUGLAS — also return as quickly as possible as soon as CLOSURE OF WOODVILLE TERRACE it is mended and do their stuff. The area LANE — APPROVED. has also been subjected, over a long period of time, with the backs of boarding-houses The Governor: Item 45. The Clerk of and hotels and tourist establishments being Tynwald has reported. I call on the hon. so close to the area and overlooked by this member for South Douglas, Mr. Ward. particular lane, to peeping Toms and other Mr. Ward: Your Excellency, in respect of undesirable things that can happen in a dark the Petition of the Mayor, Aldermen and lane. To close the whole of the lane does Burgesses of the Borough of Douglas for not satisfy the people of Woodville Terrace, approval of the closure by the Petitioners perhaps understandably to a degree, al­ of Woodville Terrace Lane in the said though quite frankly how they can be proud Borough. I beg to move:— of this as an egress for their visitors to the promenade escapes me. To close part of the That the Prayer of the Petition be and the same is hereby granted. lane and construct a new access by the lane which has been suggested above the Castle In moving item 45 on the Agenda, I think Mona Avenue turning-circle, the access it is only fair to acquaint some of the would be steep — I think most of us will members of Tynwald who are not acquainted know the area and be quite aware that it with this particular area with some of the is assuming the proportion of a cliff-side at facts and some of the background to the the back of that particular area, going down issue. It is a problem that has existed, to to Empress Drive and Mona Drive, et my knowledge, for the best part of 40 years, cetera. It would be completely impossible and there are two sides, or perhaps two for elderly people to use it and does not particular, perhaps, contestants, for the give a particularly direct access to the want of a better word, on the whole issue. promenade. It would also be very expensive The people of Woodville Terrace, which is and even when we are talking in the terms two separate blocks of boarding-houses in of money, what would only finish up as a the area look upon the lane as an access sort of cliff-side path, would be in the region to the promenade for their visitors without of somewhere of £8,000 to construct. To them having to walk through a congested close part of the lane from Castle Hill to area to Victoria Road and down to Broad­ the southern end of Woodville Terrace but way. The people of Castle Mona Avenue, leaving the steps at the point open so that who are the owners and therefore the main- access can be gained into the path leading tainers of the fencing on the east side of down to the promenade, is an option which the lane, claim that they are subjected to a at least would satisfy the main argument in barrage of missiles which land on their Woodville Terrace. They would still have property below which includes, bottles, cans, access to the promenade. The majority of wood, stones and on occasion large items, people living in Castle Mona Avenue and and I have seen on a recent visit I made to Empress Drive, of course, should also be it such things as sinks, rejected gas stoves satisfied because their main cause of et cetera. Such items as bicycles have been grievance has been removed. The people hurled down onto the back of Castle Mona who live in the southerly part of Castle Avenue which is a complete danger to the Mona Avenue, and that is getting nearer people in their back-yards and certainly a to the promenade, nearer to the bottom end source of damage to their property in the of the lane, will not of course be satisfied way of the outhouse, and no matter how but at least the most of the problem has they try to keep fencing in repair, it is an been reduced to one relatively short length open sesame for vandals to immediately tear and further schemes for the area can now it down. Even the Corporation-owned sec­ be investigated. The Corporation have there­ tions of fence are in constant need of repair fore decided that the only course of action due to vandals. To repair all the fencing is open to them, at least to reduce the prob­ a very expensive exercise and is becoming lem, is that detailed in 44(b). M ay I say, technically impossible due to the erosion of sir, that I have walked up and down this the banks which are almost in proportions path on three recent occasions both ways, of cliff-side erosion, making it so difficult and I am in complete agreement with the

Petition of Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of Douglas—Closure of Woodville Terrace Lane—Approved. T54 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

Douglas Town Council on the action they three feet by erosion, so there is no founda­ propose on this issue. The path is everything tion for a fence. The Corporation say close they say about it. It is physically dangerous it from the top end to the top of Woodville to anyone who uses it, both in daylight and Terrace and leave access open at the bottom also in the hours of darkness. The erosion of Woodville Terrace, from number 1 down, on the cliff-side has made it almost impos­ and put flower gardens in the front, which sible to restore. The area behind the un­ is very commendable, it sounds very good, fortunate householders has been turned into but I do not believe, knowing the area very a veritable and dangerous tip with all sorts well, that it is going to solve the problem of missiles being heaved down on their of the rubbish, as has been pointed out by back-yards and their buildings. Add to that the hon. member for South Douglas, and all the other unpleasant things that can the debris, and the peeping Toms, because happen in a lane overlooking tourist accom­ the lane is still open. The first seven or eight modation and you have an obscenity right houses in Castle Mona Avenue will still in the heart of Douglas, practically on its have access from this laneway to have front door, which in my view, sir, should rubbish dumped over. It is not going to cure be closed in a manner in which the Peti­ that particular problem. Woodville Terrace tioners prescribed. I hope that you will will lose the frontage on the house and they accept this Petition. I think that it it an will have nice floral gardens, but they will obscenity, it is a blot really on the fore­ be looking directly over the remaining shore of Douglas. property in Castle Mona Avenue, so they Mr. Moore: I beg to second. gain nothing from it except lack of access to their property, so what I am asking the Mr. Delaney: No, Your Excellency, it is hon. Court is this: to have it referred back not agreed. This particular lane is in my again and see if we can come to some constituency, my colleague and myself have better solution than this, because I believe spent considerable time meeting with the that the solution is to put up a proper fence. Corporation and meeting with the residents I do not believe closing down roads or in both areas. Both lots of residents are our through-ways is the answer to anything. constituents. The layout that has been put The reason it has gone to such a dilapi­ before you for accepting the Petition has dated state is that the Corporation in the been well put out. It has been put justly as past years has not carried out the work that far as the Corporation see it, but not as the they should have carried out by keeping groups of residents concerned see it. Wood- the area clean and tidy and putting lights in ville Terrace has 11 boarding-houses which, as the hon. member points out. Is it our during the season, will take one-and-a-half answer every time we have something like to two thousand visitors and it has always this to close it down? I do not believe that been an access to these hotels, this particu­ this is the function of the Court. We should lar lane. W hat is proposed is a well laid out make sure that Douglas Corporation carries scheme by the Corporation, but I must out its duties to the ratepayers and main­ emphasise the Corporation are not residents tains these laneways as they should do. I of this area who pay rates in this and accept that the residents of Castle Mona whose livelihood depends on good access to Avenue have to put this fencing back. In their premises. The laneway itself, over the normal circumstances they would be willing years, has deteriorated, as pointed out by to put it back, but there is no foundation the hon. member for South Douglas, by to put it back without a major engineering natural erosion and as the fencing on the project. There is one solution which comes east side is the responsibility of the people to mind. We were talking earlier on about who reside in Castle Mona Avenue and therefore it will be their financial cost to winter work schemes. Here is a typical reinstate the fencing, which they have example of a winter work scheme that could attempted to do time and time again over be carried out by the labour we have the years, but they cannot be responsible all been talking about, who will not go surely for erosion and natural formation of and work. This is surely the sort of thing the rock in the area. It is a public right of they should be doing. If we want to spend way, this laneway, and it has been reduced money let us spend it on something of over the last three or four years by two or benefit to the people who pay the money,

Petition of Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of Douglas—Closure of Woodville Terrace Lane—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T55

the ratepayers and the taxpayers, but if we a pretty dreadful area right in the heart of are going to close down lanes and through- Douglas and I do hope that something can ways, hon. members, we are going nowhere be done about it. We have noticed recently as far as restoring Douglas back to any sort that Douglas Corporation is taking very of habitable condition. Closing lanes is not active steps to deal with dilapidated proper­ the answer. Putting back in good repair is ties in the town. They really are, and I hope the answer. they will do in connection with this particu­ Mr. Crowe: Just one question, Your lar area. I, myself, feel that the best thing is Excellency, to the mover of the Petition. to support this Petition, at least close one What was the voting in Douglas Corpora­ part of the lane which is not used as much tion for this Petition to come forward. as the other and which is in a dangerous situation. The problem of the part between Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, my hon. Broadway and the guest-houses still remains colleague has referred to the difficulties we and I do not believe it is one for this Court. are experiencing in relation to Woodville It was felt at one time that at the top of Terrace and Castle Mona Avenue. We went the sloping ground from Castle Mona to a meeting at the Town Hall in Douglas Avenue, where the fences have fallen down to meet people from these two streets and and so on, that the fence might be put back we could see a great divergence of opinion by the Douglas Town Council. We are on what should happen in this particular assured that the Douglas Town Council has area. The people down below in Castle not the necessary legal authority to do this Mona Avenue complained, as the hon. sort of thing. My hon. colleague and I had member for South Douglas, Mr. Ward, has thought that there might be something that said, with all the annoyance they were Tynwald might help in, but the problem still suffering. They have a situation where they remains of half this lane being in a deplor­ are supposed to build a substantial fence able condition, but I believe that the answer beside this lane at the end of their steeply lies with the Douglas Corporation and is not sloping property, behind Castle Mona before us this afternoon. Avenue. The lane has fallen away. To create a substantial fence there behind all these Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, I apologise houses in Castle Mona Avenue, would be if I did not make it plain that I reserved an enormous job, so they want to see the my remarks because I assumed that this was lane closed. The people in Woodville Ter­ automatically going to go straight away as race say they want the lane open so that the Corporation wished. You see, I know people can take a short-cut down to the that ex-Councillor Delaney represented this beach. What has happened now is that area area in his capacity then, and I know that of the lane between those guest-houses in as a member of the House of Keys he still Woodville Terrace and Broadway will represents that particular constituency, but remain. The area of this lane past the the problem here, of course, is one that guest-houses in Woodville Terrace would be cannot be resolved in this Court. We are closed, but, as my hon. colleague said, the suggesting an alternative here of assisting area between the guest-houses and Broadway the Corporation in order that they can close is a real shambles. Broken-down buildings, the part of the lane which does not affect litter all over the place, broken-down fences anybody. The other problem is basically a and so on, so this really does not solve the problem which has to be resolved, but not problem of Woodville Terrace lane. What it by us, because we are talking about a fence does is shut off one particular area which — Mr. Delaney suggests that the fence is not used a great deal, but the most im­ should be restored by someone. The only portant area, to my mind, is between Broad­ people that can restore that fence are the way and the guest-houses, and this is in a people who own it, the householders in dreadful state. I cannot see that the re­ Castle Mona Avenue, to whom it is of no ference back this afternoon is really going benefit whatsoever. They do not even have to help that. This is a matter that should be an exit through there. It is only a screen dealt with by the people concerned, with for them to keep, as the mover of the re­ the Douglas Corporation, as my hon. friend solution said, the peeping Toms from has suggested. But it really is, as the hon. looking over into their properties. It is no member in charge of this Petition has said, use at all to them otherwise. If something

Petition of Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of Douglas—Closure of Woodville Terrace Lane—Approved. T56 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

had to be done there, we are not prejudicing become an even bigger tip than what pre­ this whatsoever by saying that the top end sumably it is now, or do they propose to of the lane should be closed. It is still a do something constructive with it? problem there and a problem that remains Mr. Ward: Well, in reply to the member firmly in the hands of the Douglas Corpora­ for Rushen first, the idea of the Corporation tion and we cannot resolve it by merely — and if I am in any difficulty here we have saying that we object to the resolution as counsel for Douglas Corporation — the in­ it stands. tention I believe of the Douglas Corporation would be on the top end from Castle Hill Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, this is no down almost to the top house in Woodville new problem because Woodville Lane has Terrace, would be to close the area. When always been, as far back as I can remember, I say close the area, it would be to brick ill-lit and a menace. I must say that I have up at one end and brick up the first set of been a critic of the Douglas Corporation, I steps which comes out from the Woodville think they are making at long last a deter­ Terrace property. At the Castle Hill end it mined effort to clean the town, to remove would be bricked up but there would be a the eyesores and I would certainly go along door put into it which would have to be with the Petition. I would like to see the there because, of course, there is a wall local authority taking the initiative and I surrounding a private property coming do not think it is the purpose or indeed the almost the full length of the area of the right of this Court to stand in their way. I lane which it is intended to close. Of course certainly support the petition. it would be right and proper that if those people wanted access to repair their wall Mr. Delaney: On a point of clarification, or gain access to their property I think this Your Excellency. I would like to clarify would be the idea that they would have to what I said, I am saying that as it is in get a key at the Corporation and get into front of us now, as Tynwald Court, to ratify the area if they wanted to do any repairs. the decision taken by the Town Council, This is the biggest vandal side of the area. surely it is also that if we do not agree I could not agree more with my hon. friend, with it to vote against it. This is why the Mr. Delaney, that if it was an issue of hon. member for North Douglas is mis­ closing something which was of value either construing what I said. What I am saying to the Manx people or to the town of is that it is my duty, if I feel it is harmful Douglas I would probably be the first up to my constituents to carry out this policy, on my feet to support him, but as I said, to vote against it. I will do. and I do not retract one word of what I said earlier, this entire lane is an obscenity. Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, as one who My only regret in this Petition as a matter is not involved, as it were, immediately in of fact is that the Corporation in their this area or immediately in this issue what­ wisdom and in an effort to compromise soever, I would have thought this afternoon with both sides of the issue, with both types that we would have accepted the view of of people, have decided that from the the people on the spot, that is the Douglas bottom end of Woodville Terrace down to Corporation, we would go along with their the Broadway area, they would leave open view. However, the point has been raised and, as I said in my earlier remarks, better by the hon. member for East Douglas, Mr. methods of protection would be investigated. Irving, that the biggest problem is the It is not for us to say how or why or when, bottom end of Castle Mona Avenue, that but the Corporation has said that there end of Woodville Lane, that is the biggest would be better efforts to maintain the tip area at the present, and that this pro­ fencing in a proper and respectable way on posal is to shut off the top end. Can the the way down to the Broadway exit. The mover of the resolution which is in front other thing that I want to make perfectly of us this afternoon put my mind at rest and clear is that there is no way in which the tell me exactly what is going to happen with people of Woodville Terrace, who run their the top end of this lane which we are businesses there, there is no way in which proposing to close, or the Douglas Corpora­ their patrons are prevented from taking tion are going to close? Will it, in effect, advantage of the short-cut such as it will

Petition of Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of Douglas—Closure of Woodville Terrace Lane—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T57

be, to Broadway, because of course they boundaries of the existing district of the have only got to walk down the front of Petitioners by including therein the area Woodville Terrace, down the first set of coloured red on the plan annexed to the steps which will be reconstructed, and down Petition. I beg to move:— into the lane as they have always known it. The only difference would be that they That the Report of the Select Committee appointed on the 7th July 1977 be approved. would walk down the front of their houses instead of walking down actually into the The Governor: Is that agreed? lane immediately in front of their front door. There is no question of them being It was agreed. restricted from taking the easy access to the promenade. As I say, gentlemen, my only regret is that if I had anything to do with it, and I think if I had been on the PETITIONS FOR REDRESS FROM Works Committee of the Corporation, I BOOKMAKERS PRESENTED AT think I would be wanting the closure of TYNWALD CEREMONY — SELECT the whole lot because the whole lot is a COMMITTEE APPOINTED. blot. Nevertheless, in their wisdom, Douglas The Governor: Item 47. I call on the hon. Corporation and the works department — I member for West Douglas, Mr. Kermeen. am sorry I cannot furnish the figures of the voting, but it is presented as a united resolu­ Mr. Kermeen: In respect of the Petitions tion from the Works Committee, and we for redress of grievance of George Frederick have got to accept it as such. I believe that Crowe and others, the report of the Standing in the interim period when they circulated Orders Commitee of Tynwald has been pre­ or had a meeting of the two sides of the viously announced to Tynwald. I beg to problem — that was the people in, I think, move:— Empress Drive and Castle Mona Avenue roughly t.wo-thirds of the people that were That, in accordance with Standing Order 145, the Petitions be referred to a Select involved were for the closure, some for the Committee for consideration and report. entire closure and I think one-third of them were against. I am informed that the vote Your Excellency, this is the normal pro­ was quite unanimous in the Council. With­ cedure with a Petition for redress of out labouring this any more, 1 think it is a grievance and it would be advisable, I think, sensible outlook, I think it is a compromise, to send it to a Committee. Although the I think the offer is there that immediately matter has been discussed not so long ago in front of the top terrace in Woodville we must in courtesy, if nothing else, give to houses the Corporation have already drawn these, if the Petition is in order, the oppor­ a sketch-plan and we are willing to carry out tunity to appear and to give any further a certain amount of tidying up of the area reasons which are not obvious in the immediately in front of that terrace. I think Petition. I might say that these type of it is a very worth-while Petition and I hope Select Committees are different from the you support it. ordinary Select Committee because they are, The Governor: The question is that the in fact, held in closed session. Prayer of the Petition be granted. Those in The Governor: Is that agreed? favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. It was agreed.

PETITION OF PORT ERIN VILLAGE The Governor: Is it the intention that a COMMISSIONERS RE BOUNDARY Select Committee should be appointed here EXTENSION — APPROVED. and now? May I have nominations, hon. members? The Governor: Item 46. I call on the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Lowey. The following members were proposed, Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, in respect seconded and formed the Select Committee: of the Petition of the Port Erin Village Messrs. Kermeen, Delaney, Lowey, J. J. Commissioners for an extension of the Radcliffe and Kerruish.

Petition of Port Erin Village Commissioners Re Boundary Extension—Approved. — Petition for Redress from Bookmakers Presented at Tynwald Ceremony—Select Committee Appointed. T58 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

MODERNISATION OF SEWAGE faced with rising costs and with consequent WORKS — SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE reluctance of builders to enter into fixed — APPROVED. price contracts as was formerly the practice. This form of contract which is on a fluctu­ The Governor: That finishes the Petitions, ation basis is similar to many others and hon. members. We return to the main requires the Board to pay the contractor Agenda. Item 12. The Chairman of the for rising costs incurred during both the Local Government Board. contract period and also during the extended Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to period which, in this case, has been about move that:— 1| years. This is a standard form of contract WHEREAS Tynwald approved on the in use both here in the Isle of Man and in 10th December 1974 of the reconstruction the United Kingdom and it was thought at by the Isle of Man Local Government Board the time that it was entered into that the of the five existing sewage disposal works Board would not be liable for increased vested in the Local Government Board at costs arising from any delay. However, this Bride, St. John’s, Ballaugh, Sulby and Glen has proved not to be the case. Nevertheless, Vine at a cost not exceeding £440,000. the Board has invoked the liquidated dam­ AND WHEREAS a report to the Local ages clause in this connection and a sum of Government Board shows that inflation in labour and material costs have increased the £5,260 has been withheld from the con­ cost of the reconstruction works by another tractor. Your Excellency, I beg to move the £52,000. motion standing in my name. NOW THEREFORE Tynwald— Mr. Moore: I beg to second. (a) approves of an amendment to the reso­ Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, the Chair­ lution of the 10th December 1974 to man, in moving this, has just remarked that substitute a sum not exceeding £492,000 this work has been completed except for for the sum of £440,000 previously certain minor items. There has been drawn approved; to my attention, and I have subsequently (b) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of drawn to the attention cf the Chairman of Man to advance out of capital moneys the Board, the fact that from the new during the year ending 31st March 1978, a sum not exceeding £52,000 to meet sewage works at St. John’s at times there the additional cost; has emanated quite some considerable smell. (c) approves of and sanctions borrovjings I wonder if this is one of the minor items not exceeding the sum of £52,000 being which hopefully he has now got right. made by Government, such borrowings Mr. Anderson: Actually I think that as to be repaid within a period of 30 years. far as St. John’s is concerned, that is com­ The Local Government Board received ap­ plete. Unfortunately something — you are proval of this hon. Court in December 1974 always learning in this world I think — for expenditure of an amount not exceeding apparently there has got a dust to form over £440,000 for modernisation of the sewage this material before it ceases to send out this works at Bride, St. John’s, Ballaugh, Sulby aroma, which is not very acceptable in the and Glen Vine. Contract for this work was St. John’s area. I understand that maturity awarded to Pochins (Contractors) Limited is the word that is necessary here, and only and has been supervised throughout by the time can bring that about. Our officers are Board’s consultants. This work is now com­ continually on the site there because my pleted with the exception of a few minor colleague and myself have had quite a few items. Due to inflation it has regrettably complaints going through this period. I was proved necessary for the Board to seek a of the opinion that when we installed a new supplementary vote for £52,000. This sum sewerage works that would be prevented and represents an increase of approximately 13 you would not have any smell. In fact 1 per cent, over the period of the works being understand that an old one forms a crust in progress. The Board is advised that it is over it and it functions quite well after that. within the increase in building costs shown It has been possible during this period while in recent published cost information. This is it is being matured to cover it with a poly­ not to say that the Board is unconcerned at thene sheet and that is difficult to maintain such an increase. However with current during windy periods which you do get rates of inflation the Board is continually from time to time in the St. John’s area.

Modernisation of Sewage Works- -Supplementary Vote—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T59

The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. been kept down by the advance purchase members? and storage of materials for the scheme. Your Excellency, I beg to move. It was agreed. Mr. Moore: I beg to second, Your Excel­ lency, and just remark that we built these specifically for industrial use and it is BALLALOUGH, CASTLETOWN, disappointing to note that the demand has HOUSING SCHEME — not been what we expected. Here we did SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE a job of laying out a complete estate in an — APPROVED. area where there is a lot of industry, The Governor: Item 13. The Chairman of assuming that the industrialists themselves, the Local Government Board. in order to bring over the key workers that they want, would be interested in a scheme Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to in that area, but we have found that we are move that:— lacking in support from the industrialists WHEREAS Tynwald approved on the along those lines and we are finding them 23rd March 1976 of the erection by the Isle slow to get rid of. This is one of the of Man Local Government Board of 42 problems. dwellings for the requirements of industry on land at Ballalough in the town of Castle­ Mr. MacDonald: Could I say, Your Ex­ town at a total cost not exceeding £432,756. cellency, to my colleagues, that there is no AND WHEREAS a report to the Local doubt about it we will be faced with the Government Board shows that inflation in only option — that is to offer them to local labour and material costs have increased the people. cost of the development by another £40,000. Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I am not NOW THEREFORE Tynwald— at all surprised that they are having difficulty (a) approves of an amendment to the in getting rid of them. The density is far resolution of the 23rd March 1976 to too high. We know it as “Chelsea Barracks” substitute a sum not exceeding £472,756 for the sum of £432,756 previously and apart from that I personally regret very approved; much that there is an imbalance now of the (b) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of authority houses in the town in relation to Man to advance out of capital moneys private houses. I do think that all this should during the year ending 31st March 1978 have been looked at. At the time when this a sum not exceeding £40,000 to meet was proposed we said, “Are there going to the additional cost; such sum being be people for these houses?” — because cer­ in addition to the amount voted by tainly there did not appear to be applicants Tynwald for the development of all for them. approved housing schemes during such financial year; Mr. Anderson: All I can say in answer to (c) approves of and sanctions borrowings that, Your Excellency, is that from time to not exceeding the sum of £40,000 being time Tynwald has been asked by industry made by Government, such borrowings to provide housing for key workers. The to be repaid within a period of 60 years. Board at that time took a decision, I will On 23rd March 1976 Tynwald approved of not argue one way or another about the type the erection, by the Isle of Man Local of development, but it does appear that Government Board, of 42 dwellings for there has been no question as far as we the requirements of industry on land at have been concerned about the quality or Ballalough, Castletown, at a total cost not the type of house. It is just persons who exceeding £432,756. The contract for this qualify for the house are not available. Let work was awarded to McCormack and Davies me make it perfectly clear; if consequently Limited and is proceeding on schedule and these houses are not required for industry is likely to be completed in December of we will be able to let them. Do not make this year. It is now necessary for the Board any mistake whatever about that, we will to seek a supplementary vote of £40,000 to be able to let them, but what we want to do, meet the increased costs arising from fluc­ Your Excellency, is let them to people for tuations in labour and materials over the whom they were built at the rents for which period of the contract. This increase has it was agreed they would be let at that time.

Ballalough, Castletown, Housing Scheme—Supplementary Vote—Approved. T60 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. this department; they are satisfied with it members? if they get it. It can be extended in the years ahead if this is found necessary and the It was agreed. Public Analyst’s department has increased from six to nine in this last three to four years. I beg to move, Your Excellency. ACQUISITION OF ACCOMMODATION FOR GOVERNMENT ANALYST’S Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, in DEPARTMENT — APPROVED. seconding may I ask one corollary to the resolution and that is with the vacation by The Governor: Item 14. The Chairman of the Government Analyst of his office in the Government Property Trustees. Hanover Street school, would the Govern­ Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, I beg to ment Property Trustees give attention to move:— the future of Hanover Street school itself because it is a highly desirable site. It is a That Tynwald approves of the acquisition site that could be developed in more than and modification of the former College of Domestic Science by the Government Pro­ one way and also I do hope that the sug­ perty Trustees to provide accommodation gestion that I made earlier this year is still for the Government Analyst's Department being pursued and that is the amalgamation at a cost not exceeding £40,410. of the Isle of Man Board of Education (Reference: Properties, Item 2, page 13; library and the Douglas Corporation library. Annual Estimates of the Government Trea­ All these things hang together and I look surer 1977-78.) to the new Trustees to endeavour to solve I notice that my colleagues on the Trustees these problems as I know it will indeed in are not here this afternoon so that anything that case solve a lot of other problems. I may say represents the unanimous view of the Trustees. (Laughter.) The Trustees Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, every seek to borrow £40,410 to acquire the time I see these, this is like a department former College of Domestic Science for the that appears to be blossoming forth. At one Government Analyst’s Department. It is time I think there used to be two men in made up of £19,000 for the purchase of the here, now we are talking about a “depart­ property — this is the figure valued by the ment” and now they want their own offices. Government Valuer and if, in fact, this I can remember when the site that they are resolution is accepted today, the Board of now moving into came up, it was going on Education will have to go to the Chancery the market for sale when we were building Court for approval to the sale — £11,500 this place. It would appear now that it is for remedial work that is required at the not going for sale, in fact, it is not big premises and £9,910 for the equipment for enough for half the things that want to be the new department. I am given to under­ packed into it. One other thing that has stand that originally the Public Analyst’s rather worried me about this, that this Department shculd have been accommodated Public Analyst’s department spend — I think in the Central Offices, this subsequently did the majority of their time is spent sampling not turn out to be the case and when their milk samples, I think 60 per cent, of their previous accommodation at Murray House, time is on this and I often wonder if it is was demolished in 1972 to make way for necessary to present this trophy every year the Central Offices they were temporarily for the best milk in the Island. It would placed in the former Hanover Street school. appear to me that this is about all that it Any member of the Court who has been in is about — or every other year because at that particular building will find it very least 60 per cent, of the time is checking inconvenient. People are working in the milk samples and it is now going to cost corridors. It is inconvenient to the public £40,000 for a place to live in, it is a mighty because they have to come up three lots of costly cup that we are giving away for milk. stairs and it is certainly inconvenient for staff who have to carry up and down the The Governor: Is that agreed? stairs heavy cylinders and this kind of thing. The new premises are certainly adequate for It was agreed.

Acquisition of Accommodation for Government Analyst’s Department—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T61

SOUTHLANDS, PORT ERIN — Mannin and to that extent we have said MANNIN INFIRMARY, BRADDAN that the top floor, for example, we are — SCHEMES FOR IMPROVEMENT proposing to close. I would like, dearly like, — APPROVED. the same as any other member I dare say The Governor: Items numbers 15 and 16. would like, to say that we could close The Chairman of the Board of Social Mannin tomorrow and replace those people Security. immediately into a brand-new home some­ where, because you must remember that we Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I beg to have in excess of 100 residents in Mannin move item 15:— and they will require to go into other That Tynwald approves of the scheme for accommodation. In the long term I would the conversion of the four-bedded wards at say yes, it will probably be the intention Southlands, Port Erin, into one or two- of the Board of Social Security to close bedded units at a cost not exceeding £5,000. Mannin as we know it at the present time, (Reference: Item No. 4 under the heading but we must always be aware that there is “Social Security” in the Appendix to the Treasurer’s Capital Estimates on page 13 of provided there at the present time accom­ the Annual Estimates of the Government modation for 100 and we will have to be Treasurer, 1977-78.) looking for a place for them. I also beg to move item 16:— The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, I That Tynwald approves of the scheme trust my Chairman will allow me to remind for modernising and improving the toilet him that there is a resolution of his Old arrangements and also the kitchen area at People’s Committee that Mannin be phased Mannin Infirmary, Braddan, at a cost not exceeding £25,000. out in the next five years and that is the intention of the Board which has confirmed (Reference: Item No. 3 under the heading “Social Security” in the Appendix to the the Old People’s Committee resolution. Treasurer’s Capital Estimates on page 13 of the Annual Estimates of the Government Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, following Treasurer, 1977-78.) on the hon. member for West Douglas, Mrs. Hanson, who touched on Mannin. This, in Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, may 1 my short time in Tynwald, has already been just ask a question? May I say first of all brought up several times and what I would I congratulate the Chairman of the Board like to ask the Chairman of the Board of of Social Security in doing this conversion Social Security is that he has got before at Southlands. It is a new approach to the us this resolution this afternoon to improve elderly because the elderly do like privacy the toilets and to improve the kitchens; this and semi-privacy, they do not like institu­ work should be done, but why has he taken tionalised living. I congratulate him for that. all this time and brought nothing before us Now, Mannin Infirmary has my whole­ or done nothing with regard to the actual hearted support, I know what the toilets are privacy and so on of the patients, the like, 1 know what the kitchen is like at upgrading of the wards? I was on the Mannin Infirmary, and I would just like to telephone to Mannin only this morning so ask the Chairman of the Board of Social that I would have my facts right and I Security one question. Does the Board understand that so far as the dormitories of Social Security intend in the near future, are concerned there has been little or or the foreseeable future, to close Mannin nothing done in the last 12 months and I Infirmary? think it is a reflection on the Board of Mr. Ward: Knock it down. Social Security that people still have to be in a place like Mannin and they have to Mr. Cringle: In reply, Your Excellency, get undressed without a screen round them. there has been a statement given by the We are talking about kitchens and we are previous Chairman of the Board of Social talking about toilets. It is costing quite a lot Security that eventually Mannin Infirmary in of money to do that. It would not cost, Your the future would be closed. I would say Excellency, very much to do what I am that it is the intention of the Board of asking and it has been put forward by me Social Security at the present time to update and by others in this Court now for some the accommodation which is available at time and there is nothing done. I am very

Southlands, Port Erin—Mannin Infirmary, Braddan—Schemes for Improvement—Approved. T62 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 disappointed and I hope that the Chairman below the required standards. At present will take note of this and get something appliances may lose contact with head­ done fairly quickly. quarters due to an incident occuring within Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, 1 have a black spot, the appliance of necessity being taken note, I have taken note of the hon. tied up at the site of the incident. The Fire member, Mr. Callin’s, point that he has has Services Committee has had the benefit of made over to me on a number of occasions, the advice of the recommendations of the but as the Lord Bishop rightly points out Home Office Directorate of Telecommunica­ it is the intention of the Old People’s Com­ tions in the preparation of this proposed mittee of the Board of Social Security to scheme. The Directorate have emphasised try to phase out. How much should be spent that complete radio cover is im portant so in the meantime is very difficult to decide. as to attain full advantage from the mobi­ If you go and spend a large amount of lising system which comprised phase one money it could very well be that it becomes and also to ensure the efficiency of the more and more difficult to reach the next brigades when in operation. A quote having stage and so it is something which we have been received from Pye Telecommunications to handle, to some degree, with a little bit Limited in the sum of £58,600, examined by of discretion and carefulness, if you like, in the Home Office representatives and pro­ relation to how we are going in the future. nounced satisfactory, it was considered ad­ vantageous to accept the same as further The Governor: Items 15 and 16, hon. delay will inevitably result in increased costs members, are they agreed? for a scheme that is considered to -be They were agreed. essential for the efficient operation of the Island’s fire service. Your Excellency, I beg to move. FIRE SERVICE — RADIO COMMUNICATIONS — PROVISION Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I beg OF IMPROVED SERVICE — to second but in doing so I would like to DEBATE ADJOURNED. draw the attention of the Court to the fact that some two years ago in this Court we The Governor: Item number 17. The did discuss getting all these communication Chairman of the Local Government Board. nets together and having them under one Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to common control. I am quite convinced in move:— my own mind, and I was in this business That Tynwald approves of the provision for many years early on in my life, that by the Local Government Board of an there is a lot of waste going on by different improved Fire Services radio communica­ departments all operating their own service. tions system at a cost not exceeding £58,600. I was assured that while we were building (Reference: Estimates of the Govern­ the new police headquarters thought should m en t Treasurer 1977-78, page 12, item 25 — be given to a control room which would be Communications Equipment, Fire Services available for controlling all the emergency Phase II.) services throughout the entire Island. I be­ The resolution before the hon. Court today lieve now this is not happening and I would relates to the second phase of the improve­ have thought fire, rescue, certainly the ment and modernisation of the fire service electricity services, water services, the Civil communications network. The first phase, Defence organisation and the police, the which this hon. Court was pleased to whole lot should be all on a net that can approve in October 1976, is now virtually be overall controlled at one operations room. complete being the provision of a new radio­ I am convinced of this and I am certain the operated system for automatically calling method of going about it, which we are still out the brigades based on pocket alerters doing I see, where each Board is putting its carricd by individual firemen. The second own little bit in, they are all doing their phase now proposed involves the upgrading own maintenance agreements with various of the radio voice-link system so as to people, I am so convinced that the whole remove the existing black spots where lot should come under one organisation and communications between headquarters and preferably in the new police headquarters. operational base vehicles is impossible or Everything should be controlled from there.

Fire Services—Radio Communications—Provision of Improved Service—Debate Adjourned. TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T63

All right you could still have your link, unless there is an assurance that this co­ straight down from there, straight down to ordination exists I would wish to see it the fire stations, down to the various police deferred and ask for co-ordination under headquarters, but someone in a real emer­ the Finance Board and if it is not possible, gency must be in complete command and I happily accept the fact that it is not control otherwise you will get chaos. possible. The Speaker: Your Excellency, I rise to Mr. Kermeen: Y our Excellency, it is 17 support the hon. member for Peel, in fact years since I was first associated with what I have a note here exactly on the same was then a very primitive net of com­ lines. This is an issue that has been discussed munications by radio throughout the Island. in Tynwald before. It is a problem that is I would like, however, to mention that shared by every aspect of administration, be apropos what Mr. Speaker has said that it police, be it ambulance services — at one we have progressed in more than one direc­ time the hospital services had a difficulty tion both technically and other ways and we in this connection—Civil Defence is another we have indeed, if I recollect rightly, a and now we have fire services. If each and Civil Aid Planning Committee now, of every one of these organisations is going to which the hon. member for South Douglas, indent for another £58,000 I shudder to Mr. Ward, is the Chairman. I would say think of the sort of involvement we have on that that would be the appropriate body to making provision for an Island community take up what Mr. Speaker has raised. of 60,000 people. To me it is not logical and what I should like to know is has there been Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I am again any co-ordination whatsoever between the taking up the point made by the hon. Mr. various parties in respect of this provision? Speaker. I think that there is a lost ball here I regard the provision as absolutely essential somewhere because of the fact that when I but I do not want to see waste between was the Chairman of the Broadcasting about five different departments. We know Commission and Vice-Chairman of the that the private sector is using equipment Police Board there was a mandate of some more and more as time goes on inevitably, description at that time for the integration and I am talking of commerce in the life of all the short-wave radio services. I am of the Island, they are coming in on the just wondering whether that ball has been private side, but from a Government point kicked about so far that it has become lost. of view I have a feeling that one efficient It is somebody’s responsibility and I would control body must be the answer. Otherwise be interested to know just whose respon­ what arc we doing setting up four, five sibility it is now. different units, each staffed separately, each Mr. Watterson: Your Excellency, the operated separately. I know at one time it Broadcasting Commission have been indeed was said, oh, the police business is very, talking to one or two of the Boards recently very secret, you see. I can remember lying about a co-ordination of facilities like this in hospital at one time with a wireless by because the Broadcasting Commission itself my side and I was listening to police con­ is in the process of planning better linking versations over in Cumberland, Westmor­ facilities for outside broadcasts from dif­ land. coming in loud and clear and the ferent parts of the Isle of Man, all of which whole exercise was one you could follow, again use almost identical facilities — like a criminal hunt. slightly different technically, but the prin­ Mr. MacDonald: “Z cars.” ciple is the same — and it is perfectly The Speaker: Yes, very much that sort of possible to use shared facilities through all pattern so that, while it may be secret, these Boards from the point of view of what you are hearing is: “Are you sending masts, even from the point of view of the supper out or have I to come in to get cabling. You can carry more than one signal it?” — this is the sort of thing when you on the same connecting cabling system. I get down to basics but, Your Excellency, am not too sure of the process one would joking apart, I am very, very serious on the do this with, but I would be greatly in need for co-ordination here. I support the favour of this particular motion being sus­ viewpoint of the hon. member for Peel. I pended and the whole thing being properly am surprised in fact he seconded it because investigated, otherwise I can see this sum

Fire Services—Radio Communications—Provision of Improved Service—Debate Adjourned. T64 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

being spent five or six times instead of Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, it is in possibly a total sum of about three times operation. The hon. member in front, sit­ the amount. ting in front of me is Chairman of the Joint Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, having Committee but Civil Defence headquarters been Chairman of the Fire Services Com­ is co-ordinated to take on such as the mittee for many years I can assure this hon. Summerland disaster. The question I wanted Court, without any question, that this matter to raise here, and it has been broached on was co-ordinated right from the time the by the hon. member for Ayre, is I want to very first brick was put down at the new see, when it is all tied up, is our own fire station and very close liaison was kept engineer tied up with Manx Radio, Civil between the police force and the fire brigade Defence, Local Government Board, fire ser­ people and everybody else in telecommuni­ vices, the police, so we have our own man cations within the Isle of Man. I am sur­ on the spot . . . prised at members of the Local Govern­ Mr. MacDonald: Where can I go to­ ment Board raising this. They should be morrow and see this? aware of exactly what the Board has done Mr. Delaney: Well, if you would like to in the Local Government Board office with telephone up to Civil Defence headquarters the Chief Constable, with the Chief Fire and say there is a big fire somewhere I am Office, with Mr. Kennish of the telecom­ sure you will get action from them. munications, and many people associated with the same project in the Isle of Man Mr. MacDonald: And immediately they who have explained in great detail why the will all be on the one net? present position has to be followed out with Mr. Delaney: It will be passed on . . . the fire brigade. If you defer this situation today you will find yourselves with a new Mr. MacDonald: Police, fire, health, the fire station without any proper call-out lot? I will go there, I will go tomorrow. system for the men. This has been going on Mr. Delaney: A name was mentioned — now for at least two years and the longer Mr. Kennish, who does the repairs on the it has been put back the more expensive it radios for us when we need him, he is on a is getting and I am certain if the hon. call-out basis. I would like to see, when it is member for Peel will go back to his own all co-ordinated, us having our own engi­ Board and find out what has exactly hap­ neer, a technical man who can be per­ pened in the Fire Services Committee in manently on the job. I see a breakdown conjunction with the other authorities he coming if we ever cannot get hold of “Joe will find that this has been co-ordinated way Bloggs” who does our repairs. He is like a back for at least two years. television repair man, I want to see some­ Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I one whose responsibility it is to keep these would like absolute clearance on this. Are radio systems going, that is what I want to you telling me that there is in the Isle of see. I am sure it would be a lot cheaper in Man at the moment, as was agreed a long the long run too. time ago, a central control headquarters where, if we get another thing like Summer- Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I am land, immediately somebody can go to that particularly interested in this communica­ operations centre and take over control of tion for fire services because there is still a all the services? You are telling me that lack of fire-escapes in some hotels and that is in being? boarding-houses. I have just stayed in a hotel where there was absolutely no way of Mr. P. Radcliffe: I am telling you that I getting out and I would like to feel that if would . . . anything happened that that fire brigade was Mr. MacDonald: That is in being, can on its way. you tell me that? Mr. Ward: Your Excellency, the Com­ Mr. P. Radcliffe: I know the heads of all mittee for Civil Aid Planning has been the various departments have considered mentioned. We have had three meetings and and I feel certain it is in being. we are in the process of assimilating all the possibilities of hospital co-ordination, Civil Mr. MacDonald: Where is it then? Defence co-ordination, police, fire, et cetera.

Fire Services—Radio Communications—Provision of Improved Service—Debate Adjourned. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T65

In our deliberations we are trying to get us quencies, but in case of emergency they all somewhere where we can bring the different calibrate to one frequency, that is what I factions to an overall sort of plan and I am trying to point out. think, quite honestly, this is going to take Mr. MacDonald: They do not want to a little time. I am not quite sure that my calibrate, they want to be able to just friend at the back, Mr. Delaney, is quite switch over. correct when he says there is an overall control system at this particular moment. I Mr. Delaney: Well, that is the thing, I do not know, I may stand to be corrected, think the hon. member misinterpreted what but I am perfectly sure that the Chairman I said before. What happens is, in a case of of the Local Government Board can give emergency, when the word goes out they all us the answer as to the certain co-ordination switch to one frequency so they all know with regard to radio communications be­ where everyone else is going — quite clear tween the police and the fire brigade. Of and quite simple. course, quite naturally, 1 cannot speak for Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, 1 was very Civil Defence, but they would be linked in clear in my mind before we started this with this. I think this is the purpose of the debate but now I am very confused because Civil Aid Planning Committee and we are I am a simple country boy at heart. (Laugh­ going along on those lines gradually to ter.) Am I correct in assuming that we have assimilate and cover every aspect of any a brand new fire station on Peel Road that sort of emergency. I think this will come is finished except for the fact that we have but I think the answer to Mr. MacDonald, not got the telecommunications? So, there­ if I may say so, is there certainly is a certain fore, we have the building but we have not amount of co-ordination and co-operation got the communications? So, therefore, we between the police and the fire brigade at have the new buildings out there, the com­ this time. The other thing I would like to munications down in the centre of Douglas say before I sit down is that it is an old where they were before? The Chairman, in score of mine which Mr. Delaney men­ moving it, you see, was talking about tioned. The only egg in the basket that we efficient and essential, and earlier on this seem to have is one single name as a afternoon he spoke about the building I maintainer of all our radio links and it is believe at Ballalough where the Local even creeping into electronics as regards Government Board bought in early in bulk road traffic signals and everything. I deplore and was able to save. It seems strange to the fact that with so many departments of me as a layman that we built the building Government, whether it be the Electricity and after we have completed it we then Department or somebody like that, there start talking about the communications side. should not be a training system of our own What I would not like to think of happening now for technicians in the electronic field is that this little exercise will repeat itself to do our own maintenance. There may in the police station that we are building. I come the day when we want this main­ hope that when that building is complete, it tenance done, as Mr. MacDonald said, an is complete with communications as well. I overall action control centre and, of course, just made a note actually. I said this seems such a lot of it may be, well, not secret, but to me to be another monument to experts private, and I think it is wrong tactics. I where they can build buildings and not have certainly noted my objection to this even the communications and we are left with when we were talking about road traffic the situation where we have got to have signals. We are in the invidious position two sets of buildings in operation. I may be that we have to bring contractors in to wrong, but I am open to correction. repair the equipment that we are erecting in road signals. I think that Government Mr. Watterson: Your Excellency, on a should be looking at some sort of system to point of clarification. When I was talking maintain our own installations. before, I was not talking about the lack of co-operation. I was talking about dupli­ Mr. Delaney: I rise on a point of clari­ cation. In other words spending capital fication, Your Excellency. The clarification moneys on identical systems where there is that I can make is that each fire service, the no particular need for it. As I said before, Civil Defence all work on different fre­ it is technically — and this is one particular

Fire Services—Radio Communications—Provision of Improved Service—Debate Adjourned. T66 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 subject I feel I can be on a reasonable to, their own empire and now have a pro­ position of strength — it is technically pos­ liferation of empires. But, in point of fact, sible for all the services to share the same the only people with the authority to facilities and still retain their own privacy control the empires are the Broadcastting but co-operate and join together when Commission and the Broadcasting Commis­ necessary. As far as this servicing side is sion do not wish to control. The Broad­ concerned, it may interest you to know that casting Commission wish to be useful people the Broadcasting Commission has three within the community. As my Vice-Chair­ highly skilled engineers already on the staff man said, we have at the moment three very who are perfectly capable. They are ex­ excellent engineers. We have three for one tremely competent men, and well qualified reason only; we are not over established but of training other staff. The Airport also has members will be aware we are altering electronic engineers. There are already frequencies in approximately a year’s time facilities here if there would be the co­ and we require engineers to carry out the operation and therefore no duplication. technical work. Unquestionably when we The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, I, for come to the change-over we could quite one, am very confused now with all the possibly have one engineer with time to do various means of communication. I am also all the other installations. They are all appalled to see it is going to cost £1 per capable of doing it and all we want to do head of population to enable the fire service is to help. to have its communications but obviously Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I think my it is essential. Is it — and this is a question Chairman will undoubtedly answer most of to the Chairman of the Local Government the criticisms, but I can assure hon. mem­ Board — is it possible that he may give us bers that this was gone into very thoroughly a paper so that we may study at our leisure by the Fire Services Committee. In fact, the total means of communications for fire, the fact that it was gone into so thoroughly police, ambulance, Civil Defence and any avoided us, I think, accepting a system other service that is required in this Island? which shortly if not already has become I am thinking of the service around our obsolete. Some of the criticisms I am afraid coast. are misinformed including, I regret to say, Mr. MacDonald: All of them. my hon. colleague from Rushen. The Lord Bishop: The whole thing I Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, a lot of members have spoken on the debate. I can believe needs to be centralised with one person at least at the very head and we do give most of the answers but there are one or two things I prefer to postpone until not seem to have it at the moment. Is he prepared to do this to help simple members tomorrow morning to clear because I think it is important that this hon. Court is given like myself in this hon. Court to under­ stand how it will work in the future? accurate answers. Way back, when I was Chairman of the Police Board — Mr. Ward Mr. Quayle: Your Excellency, I would was then a member of it — we did actually like to follow up the line by my hon. pre­ work together to put in a co-ordinated decessor, the hon. member, Major Crellin, system but I will actually give in the when he said when he was Chairman of morning, if the Court will allow me, a clear the Broadcasting Commission there was an and concise statement of what this position understanding I think was the word he used, is at the moment. The only thing I would I was under the same impression when I say to the hon. Court is that if delay is started there that, in fact, the Broadcasting incurred on this and if we do not act im­ Commission are entirely responsible for all mediately it will be £12,000 to £15,000 more matters pertaining to radio within the terri­ because, in fact, now they have increased the torial waters of this Island, but in the price, but we are hoping to hold them to this fact what happened when the police were price. I am satisfied in my own mind that approached to co-operate with us they these are tied up. I am not on the committee certainly did — they use a little portion of and that is why I cannot answer the hon. our premises rent free in point of fact — Lord Bishop’s question accurately because I and when we asked the fire services and am not on the co-ordination committee. My they too created, as they are quite entitled hon. friend, the member for South Douglas,

Fire Services—Radio Communications—Provision of Improved Service—Debate Adjourned. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T67

Chairman of the Police Board, is Chairman up to the whole police headquarters if of that committee and I think Mr. Delaney within two years you have got to change the is also on it. I, as Chairman of the Fire whole system again. This is quite an intri­ Services, am not. A lot of our officials do cate set-up. There is a lot of equipment to work together. I would wish to give a com­ be put in and it is not just taking something pletely accurate picture and I would ask the out and putting it back, and a lot of the Court’s indulgence to leave the answer over equipment in the old fire headquarters is until tomorrow morning. obsolete at this point. Mr. Quayle: Your Excellency, rather than Mr. Nivison: Will it want another delay until tomorrow, could the hon. mem­ £58,000? ber undertake to circulate a paper on this Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I pro­ situation so that the various people involved pose that we adjourn until tomorrow. I am can go back to him? certain that in the Local Government Board Mr. Crellin: Yes, you need not spend the — I am just recapping this point — in the money unless you want to. You get the Fire Services Committee file it gives all the authorisation just the same. information the hon. Chairman wants to Mr. Anderson: I could do that if that is give the hon. members tomorrow morning the wish of the hon. Court, Your Excel­ to clarify the situation. lency — hand them out tomorrow morning. The Governor: I suggest we return to the The only thing is I do not want to delay original proposal that you will defer your this because it is imperative. You see, the reply until tomorrow morning. thing is I think that a lot of people prob­ Mr. Anderson: Thank you, Your Ex­ ably do not understand that if a fire is cellency. existing at this moment in Glen Maye they cannot be in touch with the headquarters. There is just a complete black spot. I am CASTLE RUSHEN HIGH SCHOOL just using Glen Maye as one of the places. — SCHEME FOR EXTENSIONS They lose touch completely with head­ — APPROVED. quarters. If there is an emergency and they want reinforcements or anything on the job The Governor: Item number 18. The they cannot, at the moment, make contact. Chairman of the Board of Education. There are several black spots. This new Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I beg to equipment is to do away with that situation. move:— The Speaker: Your Excellency, may I ask That Tynwald approves the scheme for a question, please? I am absolutely at sea on extensions to Castle Rushen High School at this. If this new equipment which is going a total cost not exceeding £123,000. into operation can cover all the black spots (Reference: Item 18, page 10, Annual in the Island, is it available to the police, Estimates of the Government Treasurer, is it available to the hospital services, is it 1977-78.) available to ambulance, Civil Defence, the The Governor: Is that agreed? lot — the co-ordinated system that Mr. Mac­ Donald is suggesting and was agreed on by It was agreed. i Tynwald five or seven years ago? Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I think FORMER HARBOUR BOARD hon. members should clear one or two WORKSHOP AND STORE — things in their minds. Someone did point out PURCHASE AND MODIFICATION BY there is a new police headquarters — that GOVERNMENT PROPERTY TRUSTEES has got to be equipped. There is a new fire — APPROVED. headquarters — that has got to be equipped. The Governor: Item number 19. The There is little point at this moment in time setting it up in the old police headquarters. Chairman of the Government Property When the new police headquarters is in Trustees. existence I hope the whole system will be Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, I beg to linked up to that. It would seem to me a move:— wasted resource at this point in connecting That Tynwald —

Castle Rushen High School—Scheme for Extensions—Approved. — Former Harbour Board Workshop and Store—Purchase and Modification by Government Property Trustees —Approved. T68 TYNWALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

(a) authorises the Government Property (c) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of Trustees to purchase from the Isle of Man to expend from capital moneys Man Harbour Board the property at during the year ending 31st March 1978 Shipyard Road, Ramsey, formerly used a sum not exceeding £63,000 to give by that Board as a workshop and store effect to parts (a) and (b) of this motion; for the sum of £8,000; (d) approves of and sanctions borrowings (b) authorises the Government Property not exceeding £63,000 being made by Trustees to repair and modify the said Government, such borrowings to be property at a cost not exceeding £5,000; repaid within 15 years. (c) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of Man to expend from capital moneys, The Trustees wish to borrow £63,000 for during the year ending the 31st March the purchase and repair and making office 1978 a sum not exceeding £13,000 to accommodation in numbers 20, 26 and 28 give effect to parts (a) and (b) of this Buck’s Road. Number 40 Buck’s Road will m otion; remain with the present tenants. The £63,000 (d) approves of and sanctions borrowings is made up of £41,000 for the purchase of not exceeding £13,000 being made by the property — incidentally the property in Government, such borrowings to be repaid within a period of 15 years. 1972 was costing £56,000 — the vendor required £50,000, the Government valuer As the resolution states, we will be paying placed the figure of £40,500 on this and we £8,000 to the Harbour Board, carrying out negotiated at £41,000 in the belief that is repairs to the extent of £5,000 to provide the considered value to Government — toilet accommodation, office accommoda­ repairs will take £15,000, and here we will tion, repair the roof and the face of the be demolishing a part of the back of number building and we have a tenant who is pre­ 28, I think it is, and this will incidentally pared to go in and pay the economic rent add another 69 car spaces for the Central on the loan charges of £13,000. He will also Offices here, office equipment will cost allow us to clear the railway station at £7,000 and a total of £63,000. In the early Ramsey. part of this year Executive Council asked The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. the Government Property Trustees to look members? at the office accommodation of the Central Offices in the light of two years’ occupation. It was agreed. This we did physically — it was a very hot day too — and also by means of a letter to the various departments. None of the HOUSES IN BUCK’S ROAD, DOUGLAS departments in Central Office indicated that —PURCHASE AND MODIFICATION BY they had space to spare but in the main the GOVERNMENT PROPERTY TRUSTEES departments indicated they were satisfied, —APPROVED. but there were two or three anomalies. The Governor: Item number 20. The These where chiefly with the Treasury Chairman of the Government Property whose staff had increased from 51 to 69 in Trustees. two years and Income Tax where the staff has increased from 30 to 39. We found, too, Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, I beg to that the Assessment Board were operating move:— from two distant floors and, of course, later That Tynwald — on Tynwald indicated that they must have (a) authorises the Government Property a Deputy High-Bailiff and his staff. We felt Trustees to purchase from General Pro­ that if, in fact, we could move the Treasury, motions (I.O.M.) Ltd. numbers 20, 26, or part of the Treasury, into number 20 28 and 40 Buck’s Road, Douglas, and Buck’s Road, and provide at the same time effect a programme of essential repair a flat for number two caretaker, this would and demolition work on the properties at a cost not exceeding £56,000; add to the security value of the Central Offices; the bit of space that the Treasury (b) authorises the Government Property would be leaving in the Central Offices Trustees to modify numbers 20, 26 and 28 Buck’s Road, Douglas, for use as would go to the Income Tax people, the office accommodation at a cost not arm of Income Tax now in 6 Mount Have­ exceeding £7,000; lock would move back into the Central

Houses in Buck’s Road, Douglas—Purchase and Modification by Government Property Trustees—Approved. TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977 T69

Offices; we would provide accommodation Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, the thing for the Legal Aid people now up in 6 Mount that has happened in the past in this hon. Havelock and, incidentally, we would be Court is if we say, well, we move from able then to offer 6 Mount Havelock for here, we can have that to sell, and as sale to reduce the £63,000. We will be able experience shows this never happens. I have to provide accommodation for the Industrial been looking at a number of places we were Advisory Office, we had promised them a supposed to be vacating but are still being room for a consultant in the original lay-out. used by another department. The Drill Hall We will also be able to take the Legal Aid is one, for instance. I hope that when department and also the Deputy High- members are supporting this resolution they Bailiff. I might say that the Trustees got an do not think that this space is going to estimate of the cost of putting another storey materialise at 6 Mount Havelock, because on the Central Offices and this was £275,000, I do not. I honestly believe we will find and we felt that it was fortunate that this somebody else will want to move into 6 property came on the market at this time. Mount Havelock, the same as has been We were able to offer for £63,000 and offset done in other departments. I am going to by the sale of 6 Mount Havelock and I support this but I feel that it is only illusion would say that the problems of the office that I am going to get some space to sell. and Central Offices are satisfactorily dealt Mr. Crowe: Your Excellency, I think it with for the foreseeable future. I beg to has always been the policy of the Govern­ move. ment Property Trustees to buy any property within the vicinity and I would favour this Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, on the to date, but on the other hand, we have been motion I would like to make one observa­ talking about saving nearly all day today. tion. As was mentioned this morning the Should not charity begin at home and policy of the Finance Board for this year is should not we start to save in the building to visit as many departments and Boards as we now have? When we have got a “field” possible. By kind invitation of the Chairman that is often referred to as a “football field”, of the Board of Social Security we recently should we not make some better use of it crossed the road in Hill Street and both than is being made at the present time? I there and in the cellars of Government would commend this to the Government Office and in the General Registry which I Property Trustees. left 20 years ago when it was absolutely full to the brim, as it were, and is now in utter The Speaker: I rise to support the re­ congestion, I find that far from providing solution, Your Excellency, I think it is a space for staff we are providing space for very prudent resolution. I am sure it will records. I was wondering if the Government serve Government in good stead seeing that Property Trustees would do a feasibility Government is committed to a foolish study into the whole question of microfilm. policy anyway of staying on this site. There Fortunately just after the war — no, it was is just one point I would wish to make in before the war — by courtesy of the Mor­ connection with it, apart from the require­ mon Church all the parish registers of the ments that the Chairman has indicated. Isle of Man were microfilmed and they are There was a report on the creation of a land of course an asset, a considerable asset as registry. That report has gone into the I know, to the Manx Museum. It could be archives because the creation of that registry said that it is an expensive exercise to was going to cost something like £130,000 microfilm all the documents but we have capital and then there would be a running staff who are qualified with diplomas in cost. No evidence has ever been taken I archive administration to look at the whole think, in turning it down, as to the revenue question, not only of microfilm but the and the benefit to the public that could centralisation of records. It is inevitable accrue from a land registry. I am making that in this day of bureaucracy records this point because I believe that in the next proliferate and I am sure if we could dis­ five years we may well get to a situation pense with them by miniaturising them we where we are going towards a Government- will have the space available for the increase run land registry cutting down the costs of in staff which seems, alas, to be with us property transfers. This may or may not be for a long time to come. a dream but, Your Excellency, one point

Houses in Buck’s Road, Douglas—Purchase and Modification by Government Property Trustees—Approved. T70 TYNW ALD COURT, OCTOBER 18, 1977

that the Chairman made in presenting his a conversion to an adult training centre to resolution intrigued me and I wonder if he save the cost of a purpose-built unit. Kings- can help me on it — he referred to the wood Grove has been returned to the approval of Tynwald to the appointment of Museum and demolished. (Laughter.) All a Deputy High-Bailiff. Could he tell me on this stands to the credit of the former what date and under what resolution this Trustees. Certain leased accommodation has was, in fact, approved by Tynwald? been vacated, namely the Strand Street The Governor: It does not seem very offices of the Board of Education have gone relevant to the motion, Mr. Speaker. to the postal authorities and the rural library and the teachers’ centre accommoda­ The Speaker: I agree, Your Excellency. tion over Burton’s shop. These things have Mr. Swales: Your Excellency. We are happened since the Central Offices were looking into the question that has been erected and, as I have said today, we hope raised by the hon. member for West to add 6 Mount Havelock to the properties Douglas with regard to saving space in the for sale in the future, if this particular re­ future by photographing in miniature many solution is passed today. Incidentally, one of these records. We are looking into that other thing, the conference hall was men­ at this moment. On the question of the land tioned. When we inspected this we found registry, this is something that we could well that on on the third storey it was completely look at. I think the hon. member for East irrelevant to the needs of the Treasury and Douglas mentioned the fact that we were Income Tax on the ground floor. We did purchasing properties but not moving out of our homework very well, I think, and also I very many. Well, I have a list. I do not wish find from staff that the conference room to tire the Court at this late time of the day is being used much more today than it was but apparently the outgoing Trustees — and even two years ago. It could be that in we claim no credit for this — but I was another five or seven years it could be used given a list of the premises that were sold a lot more than we think possible at this by the outgoing Property Trustees in the moment. last two or three years, and if the Court The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. would like to hear them I am quite happy members? to read it to them. They have sold 30 Athol Street. They will sell Circular Road head­ It was agreed. quarters when the Gas and Water Authority The Governor: In view of the time and move out at the beginning of November. importance of the next item, is it the wish Number 6 Mount Havelock, I have indi­ of the Court that we should continue our cated to the Court, will be sold if this re­ business or adjourn to tomorrow morning? solution is passed today. Eastcliffe has been conveyed to the Health Services Board for The Court adjourned.

Houses in Buck’s Road, Douglas—Purchase and Modification by Government Property T rustees—Approved.