4. REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Wednesday, December 12, 1956

Present: The Governor (Sir Ambrose have all had every opportunity of Flux Dundas, K.C.I.E., C.S.I.). In the perusing the report and the appendices Council: The Lord Bishop (Rt Rev. attached to it, which set out very fully Benjamin Pollard, T.D., D.D., 1VI.Se.), the course of the deliberations of the Deemster Sir Percy Cowley, C.B.E., the committee and the results at which they • Attorney-General (Mr S. J. Kneale, have arrived. I should like in the first 0.B.E.), Sir Ralph Stevenson, G.C.IVI.G., instance, quite briefly, to refer to how Messrs J. F. Crellin, 0.B.E., M.C., G. Higgins, Alfred J. Teare, M.B.E., and this matter came before the Court on a .E. B. C. Farrant, M.B.E., with Mr. E. previous occasion. At that time the R. St. A. Davies, M.B.E., Government directors of the Manx Electric Railway Secretary and Clerk to the Council. In Company had intimated their intention, the Keys: The Speaker (Sir Joseph unless help should be available, of Qualtrough,- C.B.E.), Messrs H K. abandoning the line, and a sub-commit- Corlett, T. F. Corkhill, E. N Crowe, R. tee of the Executive Council reported to C. Cam-tell, H. H. Radcliffe, H. C. Ker- this Court and included in their report a ruish, Lt.-Cdr. J. L. Quine. Messrs j. C. very comprehensive report which they Nivison, J. H. Nicholls, W. E. Quayle, had obtained from three eminent rail- A. H. Simcocks, C. C. McFee, G. H. way experts with regard to the cost of Moore, A. S. Kelly, A. Cecil Teare, J. continuing the railway. That report Edward Callister, G. Taggart, R. C. disclosed the very considerable cost Stephen, J. M. Cain, W. B. Kaneen, E. which would be involved, and as a C. Irving and J. B. Bolton, with Mr F. result of its consideration the sub- B. Johnson, M.A., Secretary and Clerk committee of the Executive Council n.-1- to Tynwald. commended to this Court that no action should be taken and that the directors should be informed that the Isle of Man Government were not prepared to MANX ELECTRIC RAILWAY— give further consideration to any ques- PURCHASE BY TYNV7ALD tion of taking over the railway or Deernster Cowley: I propose, subject affording it financial assistance. That to Your Excellency's approval, to move report, to which I will refer in greater at this stage only the first of the three detail where it is requisite with the resolutions standing in my name as recommendations which we make. set follows :— out the very difficult financial problem that they faced, particularly the cost of (a) That the report dated 6th November. 1950. of the committee appointed by Tynwald carrying out the proposals. The a•reount, on the 20th June. 1956. to consider the further you will remember, was something in continuance of the Manx Electric Railway, the nature of £700.000, which included a be adopted. payment of £70,000, being the price Because it must be obvious that the asked for the undertaking, or such part second and third resolutions must de- of it as was necessary to carry on the pend on the fate which the Court railway, a figure which the company 'decides to give to the first resolution for were not prepared to reconsider or to the adoption of the report. Copies of make any concession. Some of us felt the report of the committee have already that that report, while most valuable been in the hands of members for some and deserving of consideration, was the little time, and I have no doubt that you report of gentlemen more familiar with

00•■="11. .- Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald 154 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBnli 12, 1958

the =ore usual type of railway and not gineer of Bradford City. Transport, and a small scenic type of this kind and that Mr J. W. Fowler, A.M.Inst.B.E., chair- to some extent their findings were man of the Council of the Light Railway coloured by the point of view with which Transport League. We invited them to they approached the question., and the come to the Island and give us the bene- matter was eventually referred to a new fit of their advice and in order to be committee with the terms of reference quite fair to the other committee, we to further investigate the possibility invited Mr Varley to come with them to of a continuation of the Manx Electric see how far the other report could be Railway system at a reasonable cost to maintained. Mr Varley agreed to do so the Government, such committee to and we appreciate the help he gave us. report back in October." As you remem- We first of all asked these gentlemen ber, it took a little longer than antici- to report on the scrap value of the line pated, but we were able to report back and also the safety and maintenance of at the beginning of November. At the the permanent way. They went very time we were appointed ,the estimated carefully into the matter and gave their details of cost of taking over were set report, which is set out at Appendix A. out in the Varley Report as £70,000 for On the first question, of the scrap value the initial purchase, £90,000 for the of the line, we asked them to give their complete renewal of the track between opinion on the figure set by the directors Douglas and Laxey, £139,000 for track of the railway company, £47,000. It is renewals from Laxey to Ramsey and only fair to say that figure was set as a £63,000 for the renewal of Snaefell result of a definite offer being made by Mountain Railway. In addition to that a firm of scrap dealers to pay it. The it was estimated that renewal of the directors were able to say that were rolling stock would be £312,000. The they to scrap the railway they could get track renewals were to be spread over that value for it. After that, we were 16 years and the rolling stock renewals agreed that the section of track between over 10 years. These two would in- Douglas and Laxey would haVe to be volve an annual charge over the respec- renewed within the next five to eight tive periods—in the case of track re- years, and after hearing what the ex- newals £18,250 and in the case of the perts had to say we were agreed that a rolling stock on a ten-year basis, £31,200, figure of £90,000 for that was reason- making a total of over £49,000. That able and must be regarded as the cost. . was irrespective of the purchase price Of that figure £73,000 would be for of the railway, and they envisaged the material. and £17,000 for labour. The whole thing being carried out in ten next most urgent matter was the ques- years. Now, this committee went very tion of the relaying of the Snaefell line carefully into those figures and as far and it was estimated that that would as the detailed costs of the renewals of cost £63,000, and if it was eventually the track are concerned we have agreed decided to re-lay the line between in fact that these figures are not incor- Ramsey and Laxey, which is of heavier rectly stated and complete renewal will material and is at present in a better cost the monies stated. On the other condition than the remainder of the hand, we felt that some consideration line, it would be necessary to spend a should be given to the peculiar nature of further £139,000. The other point to the railway, it being a light and scenic which our attention was directed was railway, and that it should not be dealt the rolling stock for the renewal of with as a main line or important branch which the previous committee had esti- line of British Railways. But we also mated a figure of £312,000 to be spent decided that whatever opinion we within. ten years. It was the considered reached the safety factor must be borne opinion of two, of the three experts that in mind. We also felt that we would there was no justification for replacing like to have an independent opinion on the whole of the rolling stock with new the railway and invited over two gentle- material. Mr Varley was still of opinion men—Mr C. T. Humpidge, B.Sc., C.Eng., that the rolling stock would require re- M.Inst.T, General Manager and En- placement within 12 years, but the other

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER, 12, 1956 155 two thought that it would only be neces- of 22,346 per annum. -After taking into sary to introduce two or three new cars account the income from the hotels, the in the next two years; that number figures show a surplus for the three would suffice for the present. We also years 1951, 1952 and 1953, but a deficit considered the reduction of the winter tor 1953 and 1954. They do not take service and, having considered these re- into account any interest on the deben- ports, another point arose and that was tures and as we do not intend acquiring whether it would be possible to close tee hotels, the takings from them- will down: the Laxey to - Ramsey section of not be available. We are satisfied that the line- and use the rails on that over a long term of years' it has been section to relay the Douglas to Laxey established that the company, except in section and, therefore, making it a rail- years of exceptionally good weather and way from Douglas to Laxey and Snae- a large number of seasonal arrivals it fell. There would be some material left nas never shown -a reasonable profit on over and that could be sold as scrap. We working and any future profit will de- asked them. to go into that matter and 'pcnti on these two factors. It is quite you will find that they don't recommend right that a profit of 2.20,000 was made such a course. They would not say it one year, but, generally speaking, it has would be a sound saving and that the ilot been a profitable undertaking. reconditioned section of the line would There has been no return to the deben- be a satisfactory job. After discussing ture and ordinary shareholders. From the matter further we came to these .infromation we have been able to ob- conclusions—that the whole undertaking tain, we are satisfied that this year's of the Douglas-Snaefell-Ramsey line returns will be much worse than those should be purchased and continued for a of last year and the losses will be period of ten years—but that there shall greater than previously envisaged. But be no complete renewal of the Laxey- that is not our problem. The company Ramsey section during that time. During will have to bear that loss. During the that period the Douglas-Laxey-Snaefell season the weather was not suitable and section would be relaid but there would it is to be hoped that the weather that be no complete renewal of the Laxey- suited some companies in the Isle of Ramsey section during that ten years. Man will be substituted next year by a We are satisfied that with some addi- type that will suit the M.E.R. (Laugh- tional maintenance that section qf the ter). There will be some saving in the line will do for the next ten years. But administrative costs and there are other we also say that that section should be charges for offices in London which will further considered in the light of the be considerably reduced. We also feel experience gained during the ten years that the business of the company could and the position with regard to traffic be considerably extended by a course during the intervening period. With of intensive advertising and that leaflets regard to finance, I will deal with that should be distributed to the visitors at in detail in a moment. When we had the airport and on the steamers. These decided that it was desirable, if possible, are matters that will have to be con- to aequire the railway line and relay the sidered by the new board, if it is decided Dotiglas to Laxey and Snaefeil sections, to purchase the railway. The amount we then felt that we should re-open of money involved—let me be quite negotiations with the railway company frank about it—is the same as was en- for the purpose of obtaining such co- visaged by the previous committee, The operation as would he necessary for the price of purchase is 2.50,000 and this, crying on of the railway. We had a with the amounts set out for the other long and interesting discussion starting items means that a total of 2275,000 will with the basic purchase figure of br; required to be spent over the next £70000, which we were not prepared to ten years. Then, in the second period of consider. On page 7 of the report you ten years, if we cut out the Ramsey sec- will find details of the receipts and pay- tion, it will cost 2214,000, but if that msnts which show a deficit on the rail- line is renewed the 'cost will be way working over an aVcrage five years £419,000. So, to be quite frank, it does

Manx - leetric. Railway—Purchase by .T3inwald 156 TYNWALD COURT, DECtMtit.R. 12, 1956

mean that the total cost for the whole leases are subject to certain conditions, line will be in the neighbourhood of the principal one being that the property £700,000. Particulars of this are set out cannot be sublet, sold or assigned, to in Appendix C, and deals with the any other company or person without method in which it is suggested it should the consent of the Forestry, Mines and be dealt with. Now, renewal of rolling stock. We have assumed that in con- Land Board. Under the same deed, nection with this, there is a point to be it was provided that the company should considered that it may be possible to pay, in respect of the leased land, half reduca that capital expenditure by pur- of any amount, received by them from chasing second-hand rolling stock which any licensee, sub-tenant, and so on, with is, at present, available. In this connec- a minimum of £10.a year. There is also tion, I would like to read a letter re- a lease letting to the company the site ceived yesterday from Mr Varley, who of the Bungalow Hotel with certain is well versed in these matters. He water rights for a term of 14 years from says : "The time is propitious for pur-, November, 7907, at a rent of £20 a year, chasing good second-hand material in with a condition that the Hotel must be this country which could be utilised in kept open from Whit-week to the end of the construction of new cars for the rail- September. There is a further lease for way. It is necessary to take early steps 14 years from November, 1928, for a to investigate the position, as the further portion of the summit of Snae- material may be sold for scrap in the fell for the purpose of erecting a plat- near future, an,d it is thought that this form, telescope, etc., and to sell post- is an opportunity which may never ocr.ur cards at a rent of RI per year. It will again. In particular, there are two be seen that the total rent payable to fairly modern cars for sale which ap- the Forestry Board by the company is pear to be suitable which were used on £291 a year. By subsequent agree- the Llandudno-Colwyn Bay Electric ments, the tenancies have now been ex- Railway." Mr Varley suggests that that tended to the 12th day of November, 1959, should be taken up as soon as possible. on the same terms and conditions. There The next point is the total assets of the is also the land occupied by workshops company and which we should take at Derby Castle, together with the track over. These are the actual track of the equipment, rolling stock, spares and Douglas to Laxey and Laxey to Ramsey stores. And the dwelling house and line, which appears to be freehold, and offices in Strathallan Crescent, now oc- which comprises a building at Balla- cupied as a residence by the Engineer glass, now unoccupied, but originally and as an office. All these, including the used as a power house. There are also actual Summit Hotel and Bungalow certain small portions of surplus land Hotel, are the interests, the committee adjoining the railway, These are sub- think, which are essential, and which ject to certain obligations to the land should be acquired by the Government. owners with regard to maintenance of We don't propose to acquire the Strath- gates, fences and crossings—an obliga- allan Hotel, Douglas, and the Laxey tion which would have to be taken over Hotel, the company's investments, and by the Government if the track was any money in the hands of. the trustees acquired. There is also the permanent for the debenture holders, being the way of the Laxey-Snaefell line, to- proceeds of certain properties previously gether with the site of the Summit sold; and such cash as might remain in Station and a disused generating station, the company's hands after the collection also a site of a pumping station, this of book debts, and the discharge of all property, too, being freehold. There is amounts due to the creditors as on 30th a plot of land near the Summit Hotel, September, 1956. There is cash in bank, held on lease for 50 years from 12th of £21,000 insurance, £5,300 ; invest- November, 1895. The company had to • m2nts, £18,000. These assets it is not pay a ground rent calculated on the prOposed to purchase. The -directors basis of one penny per head per passen- were very strong on the scrap value of ger for each journey, with a minimum the assets. They could realise the sum of £.260 per annum. These sales and of £47,000 for the scrap value and al-

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald TiniwALO COURT, DECEmnErt, 12, 1956 151 though criticism has been made on these which is derived from its use. Some of figures by the experts, they produced a us feel that the moral effect of closing letter actually offering them that sum. down that railway and leaving it dere- That figure is still open. We have to lict, would be very serious to the Island. face the fact that it will realise to the It gives access to glens which we have recently purchased, and we feel that no shareholders about ;C47,000. We also steps should be spared to maintain the dealt with other assets, apart from railway. On that point, I would refer scrap. The assets at Derby Castle, and to what the Visiting Industry Commis- I should mention the small building on sion said in Appendices 8 and 9, page the Shaefell lines. In addition to that, 32. This is what they said:— we had to purchase the house and office Tile Commission are of the opinion that for £4,000, and which we considered established services and attractions such as reasonable. After considerable negotia- the Manx Electric Railway and the Snaefell tion, we arrived at a figure of £50,000, Mountain Railway have a very great appeal as against their asking price of £70,000. to the holidaymaker. The established ser- vices and attractions such as the Manx Elec- We at once thought that that was a tric Railway and the Snaefell Mountain reasonable price, having regard to the Railway, etc., should be preserved and de- scrap value, and a railway in running veloped. order is certainly worth more than It must be obvious that thousands of scrap value. We thought we had made a people in the summer prefer to travel good bargain. We consider that sum by the Manx Electric Railway rather should meet the approval of Tynwald. than by buses—that is something they To deal with the recurring items on can do in any other part of the United capital expenditure on re-laying the track over the periods suggested and Kingdom—although steps are being meeting increased maintenance charges, taken now to re-establish a somewhat we recommend that this should be met similar railway in Wales, and then the by an annual grant of the amount re- recommendation of the Commission goes quired per annum for the next ten on:— years, as given in the figures which you It is the opinion of the Commission that much could be done to make both the Isle of will -find in Appendix C. We did con- Man Railway and the Manx Electric Railway sider the question of raising a loan, but really first-rate attractions and very great after consideration, we thought it better assets to the tourist industry, This seems to face up to the fact that if the railway again to be a case where it may be impera- tive for the Isle of Man Government to inter- is to continue, we would add an amount vene and to render immediate and quite sub- necessary to carry out the repairs. stantial financial assistance. These figures amount to something like £250,000, which, spread over ten years Now apart from the value, from the would be an average of £25,000 a year. point of view of scenery, of the Manx If this proposal is carried through, it will Electric Railway there are other points involve initially, £50,000, and £25,000 of view which must be considered if it per annum for the next ten years. That is to be closed. It will increase un- is the figure which this Court has employment, and involve a great loss to to face up to. Is it worth to the Isle of the Isle of Man Electricity Board. The Man an initial cost of £50,000, plus railway is, I believe, its biggest consumer £25,000 for the next ten years to main- and takes some 400,000 units in a year tain this railway? On that point, I want Its contivation would provide work in to refer to what we feel to be the value Its continuation would provide work in to the Island of the railway. We think the relaying of tracks and would be everyone will agree that the existence useful employment which could be car- of the railway is a very great asset to ried out in the winter. The provision of the visiting industry. It has always new sleepers would also provide work been well patronised, and its ceasing to for the Forestry, Mines and Lands operate would be a serious loss to the Board. Another consideration which amenities of the Island. Many letters must be taken into account is the fact have come from visitors deploring the •that the railway transports 400,000 proposal to close it, and the enjoyment people a year, most of them in four

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald 158 T-YNW A LD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956.

months. In the absence of this railway possibility of a duty on-beer. My view a much greater strain would have to be is that it ought not to be necessary to borne by the roads and would involve impose further taxation to ensure the extension and widening of roads which continuation of the railway. I am fully reach Ballaglass, Lewaigue and other conscious of what is involved in this pro- places which the railway now serves. posal. The committee have gone into I would like the Court to visualise what it very carefully and have considered it will happen if we do not support the from every point of view and they have resolution to-day. The track will be- signed it unanimously even after taking come overgrown, and if you attempt to into account the figures visualised and do anything to avoid it a large sum of which do not differ very much from the money will be involved. It will cost a figures contained in the previous com- great deal of additional money to pro- mittee's report. Taking the long view vide the extra transport facilities which and leaving, for the moment, the con- will be necessary, and then roads will tinuation of the Laxey-Ramsey line, have to be extended and widened. We suggest to the Court that it is essential feel that within the limits of our that the Douglas-Laxey line, and the line finances it is reasonable to ask the Isle to Snaefell should be kept in use. The of .Man Government to take over this line to Snaefell is unique unless it be railway, and involve us in an annual replaced by a roadway which would expenditure, and that we should be pre- cost a great deal of money. The line .pared in the interests of the visiting in- there is a valuable asset. After the dustry to preserve this unique railway in initial purchase we must bear in mind !accordance with the recommendation of the annual figure over the next ten the Visiting Industry Commission. Some years will be about £25,000.- When you people may say, "Can we afford it?" consider the effect that scrapping the Your Excellency, I submit that the ques- railway would have, can the Court hesi- tion before us is, "Can we afford to do tate in giving its approval to the resolu- without it." Let us visualise. the posi- tion. (Hear, hear.) tion. I think the consequences,. both Mr Taggart: I second the resolution 'moral and real, of losing the railway and reserve my remarks. would be so great that the Court should The Speaker: Will His Honour answer hesitate before turning down the pro-, one question.. Will he tell us that the •posal. With regard to the finance, we 'recommend that £50,000 should be paid signatures which are at the bottom of out of the Accumulated Fund and that the report mean that the members of during the first ten years a sum which the committee agree not only with the may, or may not, amount to £25,000 facts of the situation, but agree also in should be found for ten years. We do recommending that the Court adopt the not consider that beyond the resources proposal. of the island, and you may very well Mr Bolton: In this connection I would say, "Where will the money come from?" like to make my position clear. Mr I do not say that we ought to re- Speaker has raised a very pertinent consider our existing taxation, but I question and in view of the debate on the would suggest that the revenue derived 20th June it may be necessary for me from the entertainments duty might to explain. I would like the Court very well be devoted to this project be- to understand I cannot agree whole- cause it is all part of the visiting indus- heartedly with every word that has been try. It might he possible in a year or said by Deemster Cowley; there were two to reduce our income tax, but per- one or two statements with which I sonally—I am only expressing my own would join issue with him. The position opinion—I think it ought to be kept as with regard to the financial implications stable as possible and rather than see it has not changed in any way since the reduced by two or three pence, I would report of the first committee was con- prefer that it be devoted to this pro- sidered by the Court, and this was made ject. There is petrol duty, and also the perfectly clear by the Deemster. There

'Manx - Electric -RailwayPtir-chase by.. Tynwald TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER, 12, 1956 159 is one feature of the report which I feel cision be deferred for 10 years because may require some explanation because the Laxey-Ramsey line is able to con- in discussion with some members of the tinue during that time without the track Court I have found some apprehension having to be re-laid. That is the experts as to the programme. The position that advice. He says this is a 10 year pro- we are in is this—if we purchase the gramme. Really it is a 60 years pro- railway to-day for £50,000, we are then gramme. The railway was originally committed to an expenditure of at least laid, I think, about 1895, and therefore £489,000 which is made up by £225,000 has lasted for 60 years. It is now in a to be spent in the first ten years—this state of almost complete disrepair and figure can be found on page 14 of the the track must be re-laid and within the report. There is £50,000 for the pur- next few years rolling stock must be re- chase of the railway and £225,000 for placed, so that we are putting our hands relaying the track from Douglas to to something which we will have to Laxey, and the Laxey-Snaefell line and maintain for 60 years, and we are sug- for additional maintenance over that gesting that the cost In capital should period. There is no provision in that be spread over 20 years, but there is no figure for any 'loss which is estimated in question of being able to stop at the end the region of £2,500 a year, so there you of 10 years, because if we stop then, we have another £25,000 over the ten years. would have wasted all the money we That is an essential figure. Both the have spent in having a completely new first advisory committee, and the second line laid from Douglas to Laxey and advisory committee have told us that we Snaefell, so the railway commitment is must relay the Douglas-Laxey line im- £539,000 or £744,000. These are the mediately if we are to continue the use two alternatives, It has been suggested of the railway, so that we have £225,000 that we might buy the line and then spread over the next ten years plus discuss what we would do with it. That £2,500 a year, or 2,25,000 over the ten in my opinion is not a matter we can years, for loss on working, a total of consider. If we buy the line to-day and £250,000. then do not proceed to run it, we are Deemster Cowley: In the £25,000 we simply buying the company's liabili- have allowed for every possible loss. ties Deemster Cowley: Who suggested Mr Bolton: No, not in the £225,000. that? Members: No. Mr Bolton: It has been suggested. Mr Bolton: You have to pay £50,000 Deemster Cowley: Not by a member for the purchase of the railway and of the committee. £225,000 spread over the first 10 years, Mr Bolton: No, by a member of the and then there will be a further .£25,000 Court. for loss on working, making a total of £300,000 altogether. Now, if we then The Attorney-General: We would be decide at the end of 10 years that the accepting a tremendous liability. Laxey-Ramsey line was not to be re-laid, Mr Bolton: It has been suggested, and and if it were discontinued we are still it might be as well to take note of that committed to a further expenditure of in this debate. We might buy the rail- £214,000 for another 10 years, with a way for £50,000 and defer consideration loss on working of £25,000, which gives of its development, and I am putting the a total of £239,000—that is a final total point that that is not a reasonable alter- of £539,000. That is what we are doing native because if we buy it we must im- if we commit ourselves to purchase the mediately make preparation to relay the railway to-day. We cannot avoid spend- line between Douglas and Laxey, and if ing at least £539,000, but we can at the we buy it, and do nothing, we are simply end of 10 years decide that we shall pot purchasing the scrap value of the line, re-lay the Laxey-Ramsey line, and the and accepting all the Company's committeee recommend that that de- liabilities, with regard to maintenance

Nismx Nleetile Railway—Purcbace by Triwel4 160 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1966 and so on, and so we must assume that Deemster Cowley: Yes, the trading the decision to be made to-day is not loss, although. the Company has made only are we going to buy the railway, certain concessions, such as giving us but whether we are going to buy it and the profits of the hotels until sold, and run it. (Hear, hear.) I am simply try- so on. The railway will be carried on ing to make that clear because the sug- at our expense, but if the whole thing falls through we will stand the trading gestion has been made. loss so that the next season's running The Speaker: I take it that if you costs will be-ensured. bought the railway, and the Laxey- Mr Bolton: I was goin.g to mention that Ramsey part is closed down, you would point in addition. That has been done have the awful incubus on your hands in fairness to the Manx Electric Rail- as to what you are going to do with the way who did intimate that they intended Laxey-Ramsey part. That is the argu- to close the railway down after Septem- ment against taking over the whole lot ber 30th, 1956. In view of the pro- to-day. tracted negotiations we reached that de- cision to recompense them for continu- Mr Bolton: The argument to-day in- ing and this is to recompense them on volves taking over the whole railway line any trading loss by reason of them between Douglas and Laxey and Laxey carrying on for a further year, to en- and Snaefell- " able us to give further time for con- Deernster Cowley: And Ramsey. - .sideration of the problem. There are a number of things in the report that I Mr Bolton: And Ramsey, with the pos- wish to refer to. One is"that I have no sible discontinuance of the Ramsey sec- .doubt whatever that the Manx Electric tion in ten years' time if the Court Railway is a very great asset. It is sug- decides that it is not prepared to spend gested in the report, and I have never £139,000 in relaying the Laxey to Ram- disagreed with that point of view. I sey section. What I am suggesting is agree, also, that it provides employment this--it is no use saying "Let's buy the for a number of men. In the previous railway in order that we can get posses- report I accepted the position. The only tion of it" and then thinking about what point to which I feel there can be any we are going to do with it. We must go doubt was the price to be paid for this on the lines suggested by the committee. very considerable asset, and the price to Now, there are a lot of things suggested be paid for the employment of a number by the committee. And a lot of things of men. I also agree that there will, suggested in the report about which I .undoubtedly, be some more road traffic feel very lukewarm. if the Manx Electric Railway is closed Deemster Cowley: If the hon. member down, but, that I feel should not be will excuse me a moment—there is one exaggerated. His Honour has said that matter I forgot to refer to, and I should the Laxey-Douglas and Laxey-Snaefell like to speak in case the hon. member sections could not otherwise be served should touch on it. We on the committee except by a very exorbitant expense on have agreed that the railway should be roads. I disagree entirely that such is carried on to September 30th," 1957. If the case. I feel, quite certain that the the deal goes through as an accom- stressing of exorbitant costs of supplying plished fact-, after March 31st,—possibly roads is a completely false argument. in April or May—we will stand the loss We know there would be more traffic on of the winter operating, and we shall the roads. It is essential if you are take the profits of the summer season. going to carry the same number of If it falls through we have agreed that people, but we should bear in mind that the Company will carry on to Septem- 400,000 people are being carried on the 30th next, to keep the line in order, railway. That does not say how many of and we will stand the loss— the 400,000 people who are carried are taken, for instance, to Groudle. A big Mr Bolton: The trading loss? number travel on the scheduled services,

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald TYNWALD COURT, DECEMitER,„ 1956

during the summer afternoons and even- light railway is continued and that, if ings, to Groudle. These people, I cannot they are shut down, that they are re- believe, would care whether they opened as soon as possible. He is travelled by bus or by the Manx Elec- chairman for the Light Railway tric Railway. In addition, I cannot see League. Hum pidge, I think, whilst that the scenic beauty makes any differ- not being connected with the League, ence on that particular stretch of rail- has the same views and when way. The scenic beauty is concentrated we state on page 11 that these gentle- between Laxey and Ramsey. That is men should come to advise us on techni- the part where the railway leaves the cal problems they said, "There is no road, and where it goes into beautiful doubt that the Manx Electric Railway scenery. But that is the part of the rail- is a great attraction to the visitors to the way which is really patronised to the Island." Neither of them know "as much least extent. The majority of traffic is of the Island as any member of the tween, Douglas, Laxey and Snaefell. Court. They say, It is not too much to Mr Nicholls: Would the hon. member say that if the railway were discontinued state, as chairman of the Highway the Island would lose a number of in- Board, whether buses could replace the tending visitors." I do not believe that railway between Douglas and Groudle either was in a position to say that. on the present road? Mr Kaneen: I deny that. Mr Fowler The Attorney-General: In the summer is a well-known visitor to this Island. time you mean? He is in a position to say that and he has a wide knowledge of the visiting in- Mr Bolton: 1 have not investigated the dustry. matter but I think there is a good sur- face to Groudle. Mr Bolton: The hon. member will have the opportunity of making a statement. Mr Quayle: With the present road? The Attorney-General: What good is • Mr Nicholls: Never in this world. This this argument anyway? is a job for the Barber-Greene spreader. Mr Bolton: I am putting the case as Mr Bolton: TI do not know this par- it should be put. Let me put it this way. ticular road that well, but I think it has When Mr Varley came here with two of a good surface. the representatives of British Railways Mr Taggart: We shall miss the bus if he concentrated on the railway and sub- we go on these lines. (Laughter.) mitted a technical report, and he did Mr Bolton: Now, I have signed the not tell us whether it should be con- report and I must say I am not as tinued or not.. enthusiastic as some members of the Deernster Cowley: He was not asked committee, and I have been subject to to. ,a considerable amount of persuasion, to Mr Bolton: We get the second com- convince me that 1 should sign it. mittee and we ask these two gentlemen Mr Nicholls: You weakened. to vet the report submitted by Mr Varley, whether it should be modified. Mr Moore: Ambushed. - They proceed to investigate with Mr Mr Bolton: There is one point which I Varley and do the same job, but they am entitled to -refer to and that is the decide to explain the advantages to the report at Apendix "A." It was made by Isle of Man in continuing the railway. Mr J. W. Fowler and Mr T. C. Humpidge. I have discounted the report where it These two gentlemen, particularly Mr deals with the advantages or disadvan- Fowler, came over here at the request tages of the railway to the Island. 1 am of the committee, but I do not regard making a plea for members to con- either of them as being as completely in- sider the report from a technical angle dependent in this matter as the previous only, because the people who have to advisory committee. 1%1: Flwler spends decide whether it is of advantage or not his time trying to make sure 'that every are the members of the Tynwald Court

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald 162 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956

and not Messrs Fowler and Humpidge. keep this railway running if it can at That is my opinion, and I have expressed all be done at a reasonable cost to the it before, and I am not influenced in any Isle of •Man Government. To be per- way by these gentlemen's expression of sonal sir, perhaps .1 have a very special opinion. I feel that, despite the enor- interest in the Manx Electric Railway,. mous amount of money that is to be because I was born about the time of spent on this bargain. I have signed its inception and many times I have been this report-- told that I was taken as a child in arms Mr Nicholls: You are weakening. to see the first electric car go through Laxey. I must confess I do not remem- Mr Bolton: Because of two reasons. One is that, up and down the Island, I ber it. During my boyhood in Laxey it have heard people saying we must, at was accepted everywhere that the Manx any cost, continue the Manx Electric Electric Railway shared a very large Railway. I could not agree with that, part in the life of Laxey. It was in and I don't. I have heard candidates for those days practically the only means Tynwald- of transport between Laxey and Dou- ' Deemster Cowley: For the 1-louse of glas and Laxey and Ramsey. Quite Keys. sincerely, Your Excellency, for senti- mental ieasons I would very much like Mr Bolton: For the House of Keys and, to see the Manx Electric Railway main- uninformed as they have been, they tained, during our lifetime, but very have been saying that they would sup- great changes have taken place since port the continuance of the railway. I those days, and I think that we must have wondered whether it was worth admit that the Manx Electric has fallen my while to sign a minority report but, on very bad times along with railways on the persuasion of the other members, throughout the country, due very largely I decided to sign the committee's report. to the coming of road transport which Mr Nicholls: You are slipping? can be operated at much lower cost. I think there is one question, a Mr Corlett: I am not, Your Excellency, simple one, to which we must in the unfortunate position of the hon. address ouiselves to-day. It is as simple member for North Douglas— as this. Is the Manx Electric Railway Members: West Douglas. of such value and importance to the Island as a holiday resort that it would Mr Corlett: Sorry, West Douglas. At justify an expenditure as quoted in the the time this Matter came before Tyn- report? I think the Court to-day wald I was unfortunately absent. By is in a better position to answer that Your Excellency's casting vote I was not question than was the case in June, be- on this committee, where, the hon. cause I think it must be accepted that member suggests, so much pressnre had at that time there was a genuine diver- ben put on him. sity of opinion as to the cost. I think Deemster Cowley: Persuasion. that was the one. factor that was very evident in that debate. The hon. mem- Mr Moore: By the election coming on, ber for West Douglas, Mr Bolton. pre- Mr Corlett: Having heard a lot and sented the findings of the Executive Com- given quite a considerable amount of mittee and it will he recalled that on that thought to this matter, as a member of o2casion he told the Court that the cost the Executive Committee which pre- would be almost £700,000 over the next viously reported, I should like to make 16 yew s, plus an operating loss esti- a few remarks. In the first place mated at about £2,500 a year. I remem- subscribe entirely to what has been said ber that several hon. members of the about the Manx Electric Railway as an Coui t were unwilling to accept those amenity and an attraction to the visi- flguies and statements were made that tors, and I share very fully with other the undertaking could be kept running members of the Court their desires to at very much less cost to the Govern-

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. IMENWALD COURT, DECEMBER, 12; 1956 10

ment. His 'Honour the First Deemster, which were put before the Court in Sir Percy Cowley (and I quote from the June, even on the eve of a General Elec- verbatim report) said this:— tion, have largely been verified and the If the committee adopt the view of the rail- position briefly is this. They have way experts that the railway cannot be gained one concession, we must hand it caried on except at a cost of over £500,000, to them. The purchase price was re- then there is nothing else to be said. I am duced from £70,000 to £50,000. not prepared to accept that view. His Honotir suggested a scheme whereby Mr Nicholls: That is only a trifle. it might be carried on at very much less Mr Corlett: Yes, but one has to be fair cost. The hon. member for Middle, Mr to the committee. It was shown in Nicholls, was of the opinion that the Appendix C that if the Government is Manx Electric Railway could be main- going to acquire the undertaking, it will tained at a fraction of the cost -quoted, be involved in an expenditure of and the hon. member for Garff, Mr £744,000 over a period of 20 years. The Kerruish, suggested that the under- committee have succeeded, as I have taking could be carried on at a cost already mentioned, in persuading the under £10,000 per year to the Govern- company to sell the line as it stands to- ment. The hon. member of the Coun- day for £50,000. In conclusion, I think cil, Sir Ralph Stevenson, was hopeful we must go back to the very simple that electric tramway experts might question, is the Manx Electric Railway find a less expensive way of preserving an amenity of such value and import- the amenity. I am not quoting these . ance to the Island to justify an expendi- gentlemen in any critical way, but ture of £744,000, nearly three-quarters simply to show that there was a desire of a million pounds? I don't think it is, shown in the Court that we should con- and I have no option but to vote against sider doing something for the M.E.R., the resolution. I may be alone in this, but nothing round £700,000. And there but I conscientiously feel that it is my was a genuine desire in the Court that duty to register my vote against this. In a committee should be set up with a every business in these days of competi- view to acquiring this undertaking, if tion, there must be progress and enter- possible, at a very much less cost, and prise. At times we have got to take I think every member of the Court risks, and if we don't, we go out of busi- eventually subscribed to the amendment ness. And I am certain there has to be because every member of the Court is enterprise and progress in the visiting desirous of maintaining the Manx industry. As businessmen, we always Electric Railway if it could be done at have to ask ourselves one question. Is a reasonable cost. The committee's there a reasonable chance of getting an terms of reference were to inves- equitable return for the capital outlay? tigate the possibility of the con- Do we think the Isle of Man will benefit tinuation of the Manx Electric Railway to a sufficient degree to justify the Otit- system at a reasonable cost to the Gov- lay of three-quarters of a million on this ernment. The committee have gone into one venture. Personally, I am affaid, the matter very fully, very thoroughly. Your Excellency, that we must be pre- We could not possibly have had a com- pared - to admit that the cost of putting mittee better able to deal with the task. this undertaking into a satisfactory con- They have taken their task very dition is out of all proportion to its seriously. Whenever His Honour the value, either as an amenity or as an First Deemster presides over a commit- attraction. I am really sorry that the tee, we can depend on it that it will committee have not been able to devise consider the subject thoroughly and a more economic way by which this can fairly The committee has given be taken over. Just before I sit down, us concise figures and facts and they I think I ought to say that in considering called in two further experts And what this, we must not lose sight of the fact do we find? It was put very fairly by that we have other commitments in the His Honour. We find that the figures Isle of Man. As you know, we are

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald 164 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956 already committed to several schemes. at any rate. It will also mean if the I will just refer to some of them. railway is closed,, that for every eight We already face approximately £50,000 men now unemployed, there will be nine for the Harbour Board's berth at men finding themselves in that position. the Coffee Palace and £15,000 for a It will also mean that the annual wage drainage scheme for Crosby and Glen bill—in 1954 it was £31,000—that wage Vine. And we are only taking the very bill will cease to go into wage packets small ones yet. Possibly we will have and into general circulation. Not only to find very soon, £300,000 to £400.000 that, but the Insurance Fund at the for the new wing at Noble's Hospital and outset at any rate — will be confronted three-quarters of a million pounds for with a certain liability. These men can- the Water Board's new reservoir. All not be absorbed immediately. these are essential to our needs as a Mr Cannel!: In the summer time ihey holiday resort. I think we must at least can. bear them in mind, and secondly I think we must be careful to keep things in Mr Taggart: It is very difficult to say proportion. I read an article some time how long it will take to assimilate them ago in one of the local newspapers on into the manpower of the community: this matter. If we spend three-quarters While that is being achieved, there will of a million on the Manx Electric, are be - a liability on public funds. There we going to have adequate funds left to will also be other considerations to be meet all the other things that have to be taken into account. For one thing, the done to maintain the visiting industry? Electricity Board will lose a customer. I think these things must be kept in I quite agree that the amount involved their proper proportion and finally we. there cannot be regarded as consider- must never forget that a very large pro- able, but nevertheless it is something we portion- of our income, the revenue of must take into account. I can quite this Island, is of an extremely pre- understand the view of the hon. member carious nature, bound up with prosperity for Glenfaba. I think that every mem- in England. Yesterday the hon. ber of the committee was conscious of member for Ayre, Mr Radcliffe some of the facts that he has stated. talked about taking care in times of One of the great difficulties I find in emergency. I think we should remem- being a member of the Court is that ber that these are difficult times in when considering a matter of expendi- which to commit the Isle of Man to an ture, you have to turn yourself into a expenditure of three-quarters of a Manx Chancellor of the Exchequer. We million pounds on one railway. are at a considerable disadvantage in this Court in not having the expert Mr Taggart: His Honour the Clerk of guidance necessary for comparing one the Rolls, in proposing the adoption of expense with another. By the very this report, said there were two points nature of this position, we must assume involved. The first was to consider the a tremendous responsibility, with each 'effect on the Island of the possible . one of us trying to assess the financial closing of this system and the second obligations of what we are recommend- was what was the cost involved if the ing and in trying to set them in system was to be maintained. Let me perspective, we have difficulty. But try to deal with the first point first. This does the hon. member who has is a company which has been established just sat down think that the reten- for very many years and has run into tion of this railway for 10 years, shall I financial difficulty, and it has supported say, that when the position is reviewed a certain amount of manpower. Now, at the end of that time, it will not have if the company is going to be liquidated been worth the equivalent per year of and the Government is going to stand what is spent on education for a month? aside with comparative 'indifference, I say that as a member of the Education that manpower is going to be thrown on Authority. Viewing it in that light, the unemployment register, at the outset this report is not so alarming. But if

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald TY. WALD COURT, 'DECEMBER, 12, 1956 165

you are going to take the view that the material here), :they. are dealing with Government must get a financial return the section of the line between Laxey on every penny spent, the hon. member. and Ramsey and it is very significant is justified in his statement, but that is that they quote no figures. They do say not my view. I was very much im- this: "The question of adopting single pressed with what the hon. member, Mr. track instead of the existing double Nicholls, said on a previous occasion track has been considered and it was when he mentioned that if the Govern- found that owing to the frequency of the ment had put a shot into the arm of the train . service between Douglas and Foxdale mining industry when it was Laxey during the peak months and the .needed, we would have a prosperous necessity of the safety factor," and so industry to-day. I think it is unfortunate on, they rule that out. They also say that the Government has adopted the this: "The only length on which it may philosophy of the hon. member for Glen- be practicable to operate single line faba and allowed the industries of the would be between Laxey and Vamsey. Isle of Man to go out of existence. I am. In this case, several loop lines would be enthusiastic about the recommendation necessary and single line working would mentioned on page 4 of the report at probably necessitate the introduction of letter 4A." We have had considerable some form of signalling. Extensive discussion by the committee as to what alterations would also be necessary to consideration we should allow on the the overhead line equipment and modi- observations of the experts. When you fications to the electrical distribution carefully examine the views of the system. The saving in the renewal of different experts, you will find a fair the track would therefore be largely off- amount of variation between them. Let set by the cost of these modifications. us take the Howden Report of 1949, In addition, any saving in track main- which is quoted extensively by the pre- tenance would be considerably reduced vious sub-committee. That report said by the cost of the maintenance and that the unexpired life of the Manx operation of the signalling .installation Electric Railway was estimated as: and the maintenance of the loop lines." Track, 15 years; power operated vehicles, In other words the single track opera- 20 years; trailers, 10 years. Then the tion, if resorted .to, would mean that a Varley Committee comes along and they saving could be effected, but they con- certainly get away from that estimate; clude: "In view of the large expenditure certainly not materially, but they do envisaged, any economy which could be get away from. it. We cannot in this effected by adopting single line on the Court lay down the issues which will Laxey-Ramsey section would be com- face the new operating bodies or the paratively small. The railway manage- ways in which they will solve them. ment, when this matter was discussed, That cannot be done in this Court. If did not view the proposal favourably." we consider the system is worth main- But the new management might, Your taining, the statesmanlike way to.. ap- Excellency. I was not quite convinced proach the subject is in the way con- from the questions put to the existing tained in the recommendation — that is management that they had not gone into give them 10 years to gain experience of the matter very exhaustively or very the system and then report to Tynwald sympathetically. My point is that if we on the problems facing them, when they have this 10-year period, the new body would ask to have them solved. Let me can go into the matter of the single line refer to the question of retaining the operation between Laxey and Ramsey line between Laxey and Ramsey. There and let us have some figures. If they is a considerable amount of expenditure find that very little can be achieved in involved there. In the experts' report that direction, then the abandonment of you will find — and here I am quoting the line on that 'stretch can be con- from the Varley Report (forgive me for sidered. To come to the experts' a moment, there is such a mass of opinion on the single track as given to

Manx Vectric Railway—Purchase by Tynwalci 166 TYNWALD COURT, DtCEMi3tR IL .i956

this committee. We find that Mr holidaymaker is 'transport-spoiled' and Varley subscribes to this opinion: "With country walks seem to have fallen into the present train service it is possible the more exclusive circles represented to adopt single track working instead of by the Y.H.A. and similar bodies. When the present double track, but this would offered door-to-door transport, often of entail appreciable expenditure to pro- a communal nature, in which .personal vide loop lines to enable the trains to pass on another, and perhaps some form associations can be maintained, to-day's of signalling, together with the cost of visitor readily accedes." I suppose they modifications to the overhead line equip- may have helped Douglas Corporation. ment and the electrical distribution It is quite possible that with an enter- system. We consider this is a matter prising management, that trend could be which should be given consideration reversed and that some degree of the when the complete renewal of the track traffic could be restored. I am quite becomes necessary." And Mr Varley convinced that along that stretch of subscribes to that. He returns to the railway there is to be found some of the possibility of a saving being made on the finest scenery in Great Britain. I am single line between Laxey and Ramsey. equally certain that the possibilities of I join issue with Mr Bolton in holding the system have, for one reason or that these figures are rigid and inflexible another, not been fully explored. It and that the Court must face up to these may be that in 10 years time I may be figures. I think that the retention of proved wrong and that the enterprising the railway is in the best interests of the management I speak of may have to say visiting industry. The large numbers of that these hopes were not realised, but I people who use the line will tell you how do hope that some form of co-ordination popular it is. I think that to abandon of the insular traffic will be brought it would have a serious psychological about in that time and that may affect effect. It has been shown that in other the figures mentioned in the report. I places where they abandoned such lines, hope that the Court will adopt the re- they had to be restored because the visi- port and set up a new body to operate tors desired their restoration. Mr Bolton the railway. It will be faced with great made a point about the revenue coming problems, I must confess, but I do hope from the visitors travelling between the Court will adopt the recommenda- Douglas and Groudle, but I don't think tions and put the sum of money required he is quite correct in saying most of it. behind a new body for the next 10 years Mr Bolton: I never said that. I said a and wait to see what the results will lot of it. turn out to be. Mr Taggart: I am sorry if I misquoted Mr Nivison: I am going to support the you. I thought you were making the resolution, especially the first two parts point about most of the visitors travel- as contained on our agenda. But the ling on that section of the line. About third part, which calls for a committee that particular section of the line, I of Tynwald to be appointed to keep the would like to quote from the March- railway on the lines indicated in the re- April issue of "The Modern Tramway," port and to recommend to Tynwald the in which it is stated, after a reference to organisation that should be set up to the competition from coaches: "Coupled take over and operate it, is different. with this is a change in the holiday These last words are the most important habits of the average visitor, and the part of the whole resolution. Unless we decline of the 'glen' industry. In 1899, are clear in our own minds as to who is 107,456 visitors were attracted by the going to finance it, I would be inclined beauties of the Groudle Glen, and prob- to say that we should refuse to pass this ably as many again walked down the particular resolution. The Court would steep paths of Garwick, Laxey, Dhoon, require to know, Your Excellency, if we Ballaglass and Glen Mona to the water- are going to be prepared to spend the falls and the sea, but the modern money set out in Appendix C, which

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald TYNWAI,D COURT, btcEBAEft, 12, i966 161, amounts to £744,000, over a period of 20 Mr Taggart: Strange? It was Your years. We should be prepared to know, Excellency's casting vote. (Laughter.) right now. Mr Nivison: Mr Bolton said there was Mr Bolton: To save the hon. member no question of spending all this money a long speech. without Tynwald in control. I wish, before this debate continues, to draw the Members: Oh, oh? attention of my Labour friends to the Mr Bolton: The committee made no fact that unless the matter is clarified suggestion that they were going to as to who, subsequently, is to run and finance anybody but the Government. control this railway, they should not The Governor: A committee, it says, vote for the spending of such an was to be set up to consider these enormous amount of money. matters. Mr Stephen: We can also read. Deemster Cowley: The committee The Governor: The recommendation would draft a proposed Bill. And if the is that a committee be set up to recom- railway is taken over, that Bill would mend what organisation. have to come before the branches. The Deemster Cowley: As far as the com- committee would discuss the form of mittee is concerned, we don't envisage that Bill, and consequently, to keep the a private company. It is the Govern- railway in being during the period while ment, through a Board. we are responsible for losses and profits, until the matter is finally settled. Mr Nivison: I am satisfied with the explanation which has been given by the Mr Nivison: I am grateful for the chairman, who assures me that the sug- assistance given. If I may continue, gestion in little (c) is that in the event of however, I will read part of the report us passing this resolution, and in the on page 8:— event of the company being acquired by Finance.—It is a matter for consideration the Government, that subsequently a by Tynwald as to whether the railway, if purchased, should be taken over by a new committee will be set up to see how the Board of Tynwald on the lines of the Isle of Government will run the railway. We Man Airports Board, or whether a company are voting for the nationalisation of the should be formed with Government guaran- railway. Thank you, sir, tees. Those are important words. Mr Edward Callister: Your Excellency, like the senior member for Middle, I am The Attorney-General: Forget that. not prepared to accept the recommenda- Mr Nivison: I cannot forget that. I tions, hook, line and sinker. The rail- must satisfy myself. Otherwise, it way is a classic example of the failure would come to me later, "You voted for of private enterprise, and it is only one this." Your Excellency, in order to of many in the Island. A few days ago carry out this argument, and avoiding we had to save the wreck of the Laxey the dangers of a 'long speech, I am speak- Glen Gardens, The Isle of Man Railway ing on this one subject only. I realise is another whose shareholders only con- that when I offered myself for election tinue to receive dividends because the some 10 years ago, I offered myself as an Isle of Man Road Services are able to official Labour candidate in Middle. I exploit the roads which have cost was questioned continually on this fabulous sums of money. The mines are dreadful nationalisation idea, and I said another example of private exploitation. I would never be a party to introducing Indeed, if these so-called enterprising the nationalisation of the railway. But folk are allowed to continue their I said it would come forward, but it depredations, we shall have nothing left would not come forward by any member but the ruins. Our only advertisement of the Labour Party. And that is so, will be "Come and see the ruins of what although we do find that Mr Taggart, by your grandfathers enjoyed." How long some strange means, replaced Mr Corlett are the Manx people going to tolerate on the committee at the last moment. this exploitation? If I gather anything

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald 168 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956

from the recent General Election, it is visitors are to land in Douglas, it should that the writing is on the wall for this not be inconvenient for them to step on minority who are exploiting the Island transport which could take them to for private profit, and all those who are Ramsey by train or bus, but not the in- supporting them. The hon. member for adequate thing called the Manx Electric Middle has suggested the co-ordination Railway or the Manx Railway. I am of transport. I believe that that is very prepared to support. and I do hope we vital and it must come, and must come will have that broad outlook and that soon if we are going to save the Island enterprise which is required. I am pre- as a visiting resort, and save it from the pared to support the project of the rail- confusion we, are in now. way. Lt.-Cdr. Quine: Save the Empire first. (Laughter.) The Governor: I think this would be an appropriate time to adjourn the Court Mr Edward Callister: I don't agree for luncheon. with the chairman. The suggestion is 10 years: If this railway is purchased, and The Court adjourned and resumed at if £700000 is spent on it, it surely will 2-30 p.m. be a matter for posterity, rather than When the Keys assembled, and before the present generation. I do hope one of the entry of the Legislative Council, the sources of getting money, to pay for Lieutenant-Commander Quine said: May it will not be the reduction of income I raise the point about the land along- tax, as suggested by His Honour. side the railway tracks. with Deemster Deemster Cowley: No. The retention Cowley? of income tax at its present level, not The Speal.cer: During the debate. reducing it. The Legislative Council entered. Mr Edward Callister: I do feel that the Isle of Man can afford this. There is a The Governor: We will resume the pitiful plea that the Isle of Man is bank- debate on item No. 8 on the agenda. rupt. Lt.-Cdr. Quine: Your Excellency, I A Member: No one said so. want to raise one point with His Honour Mr Edward Callister: The Isle of Man Deemster Cowley. It is concerned with is full of money, and if you want me to the ownership of the land alongside the tell you where it is, I will soon tell you. railway. The company only own the land for three feet either side of the lWr Corkhili: You might as well tell us. double line of tracks. There is a long (Laughter.) stretch, nearly a mile, alongside the Mr Edward Callister: The financial. other side of Groudle, where the resources, from a public point of view, adjacent land is owned by the railway are in the nature of £30,000,000, the for three feet, but by another owner as majority of which is invested in British far as the boundary. That I do know securities, and which should be invested for this reason. An acquaintance of in the Isle of Man. I hope no one will mine wanted to put a box for the suggest that the Island is bankrupt. The delivery of his newspapers and so on, sooner we realise national capitalisation and applied to -the company for permis- in the Island, then it will not die out. sion. They said they could not give Let us not be afraid of investing money. permission as they did not own the land am perfectly willing to buy this rail- to which he referred, and advised him to way, but I don't want to feel that we are contact Mr J. .1. Cowley, who is the committed, hook, line and sinker,- to Captain of the Parish of Lonan, and he what is in this report. I believe it can told my acquaintance that he, Mr Cow- be done without any serious loss. If we ley, owned the land beyond ths three- take advantage of co-ordination, we yard limit. It may not be an important shall have a modern railway throughout matter, but I thought I had better raise the whole length of the Island. If our it.

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER, 12, 1956 169

Mr Cain: Your Excellency, • I wish to by offering to put a small bus on that oppose the resolution on the grounds portion of the road from Hibernia via that the Committee has been unable to Ballajora to Ramsey so that the people carry out their terms of reference. Those living in that area, would have public were: "The Committee was appointed transport. Then. the most extraordinary further to investigate the possibility of thing happened. The directors of the the continuation of the Manx Electric Manx Electric Railway continued to run Railway system at a reason,able cost to twenty trams a day when by Statute the Government," I would like to make they only need run four. The cost of a my position clear. I am a director of the Isle of Man Railway Company and: the reduced service is mentioned in the Isle of Man Road Services and after report, but 'even now, to-day, they yesterday's debates some may say I am• continue to lose at least £2,000 a year. an interested party. I claim I may have Great stress is made of this railway some knowledge. of transport under- being a scenic one. Is this Court aware takings that hon. members of this Court that of the 17i miles of route the road may not possess. I, like many members runs parallel for 13i miles. I have a of this Court very much regret the pass- map here which shows it. I will pass it ing of this railway system, but, to put it round the Court, so, from a scenic point mildly, it has had its day. In the How- of view the buses are able to give nearly den Report it says: — 80 per cent of the scenery that the M.E.R. gives. So really, by scrapping I' have no doubt there is available by way of investments and cash a total sum adequate the undertaking the visitors are not for carrying out the full programme of neces- going to miss so much of the scenery sary and intended repairs and renewals of that the .Report leads us to expect. This 'track, rolling stock, overhead wires and poles. railway system is supposed to be an What money the company had avail- amenity that attracts visitors to the able I don't know. If, as Howden Island. Does the Court really believe said, money was available, why that our annual number of visitors will was not the necessary, work car- not come here if this railway is ried out. Again, has all the money been scrapped. Did visitors stop coming here spent and the directors saw how things when the 'Douglas Steam Ferries, the were going and saved the last £20,000? Incline Railway, and the Port Soderick I am sure in my own mind the directors Electric Railway Were scrapped. did not spend this £20,000 on renewals and repairs because they knew it would .Mr Kaneen: The figures have been be throwing good money after bad.. down, Again in the Howden Report it recom- Mr Cain : The figures do not show that mends: at all. At that time I was secretary of The section from Laxey to Ramsey Is un- the Steam Ferries and not a finger was economical and should be closed down, raised to keep them going, and yet they That was in 1949, and here we are in were supposed to be an amenity, but the 1956 making this company run its whole Douglas Steam Ferries, I know from ex- service. for the whole year No notice perience, carried just as many people was taken by this Court, the directors or as the Manx Electric Railway. Again, _anybody else. Then in 1954 the company have visitors stopped going to Jersey applied to this Court for permission to because the railway there was scrapped. close the Railway for the winter months No. Jersey has never been more and so save £3,638 per year. That would popular, and I say that the internal. have given the company fresh heart, and transport system has hardly any bear- if permission had been given we may nof, ing on the number of visitors attracted have been, discussing this take-over bid to holiday resorts. From my experience to-day. But no, this Court refused to on the Airports Board, I think Jersey is allow them to try to save themselves. one of our chief competitors for visi- I would like to inform the Court that tozs. Let us look after getting our when the Manx Electric Railway made visitors to and from the Island in com- that application the Isle of Man Road fort. That is what we want to be sure Services offered the M.E.R. assistance of doing

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. 170 TYNWALD COURT, DEC-EMBER 12, 1956

Mr Taggart: Would you scrap the who were carried brought in a revenue steam railways? of £9,304 and the average paid was Mr Cain: They have come to stay, but 3s 7d. That gives us a total of 433,485, I will say that it was the internal com- with a total revenue of £44,067 with an bustion engine—the buses—that helped average per passenger of 2s id. On page to put the Stearn Ferries out of action. 16 of the Varley Report it gives it that It was the buses running to Douglas the biggest proportion is for short- Head that imade it uneconomic for the distance journeys. Considering that the ferries to continue. Now these facts, Douglas to Ramsey fare is 4s 6d and the Your Excellency, surely contradict the Douglas to Laxey fare is 3s; yet the statements in the Report:— average paid on the Douglas to Ramsey section is Is 10d, and I can understand That if the railway were discontinued the Island would lose a number of intending Mr Varley's observations. In fact, it visitors. They might say, "We are not going appears to me that the volume Of short- to the Island as the Manx Electric Railway distance traffic — presumably Derby is not running now." Castle to Onchan Head and to Groudle- That is just nonsense. I would like now must be considerable. I have been told to present an analysis of passenger that. some 100,000 visitors went to returns which will prove that a large Groudle in the 1955 season and there proportion of the traffic is purely short would also be a large number to Onchan distance. The figures on page 14 of the Head. The Douglas Corporation buses Varley Report show the total number of alone carried 217,000 people to Onchan passengers carried in the four months Head and, if the Manx Electric Railway, June-September, 1955, as 433,485, as like the Douglas Corporation carried a follows: Douglas-Ramsey line 381,700 large number, so that if the people paid and Snaefell line 51,785, a total of between is 6d and 6d.' a head, this would 433,485— account for the low average over the whole Ramsey to Douglas section and, in Deemster Cowley': What was the all the circumstances, the situation is total? completely changed. Is it reasonable ' Mr Cain: 433,485. This indicates that for the Government to be committed to the major revenue was £46,967 and the this heavy expenditure, when all it con- indication in the present report is that cerns is some 250,000 people between receipts in winter are £2,000 so that Douglas and intermediate stations, there is a sum realised in the summer 51,000 to Snaefell and 130,000 from months of £44,967. Laxey to Ramsey Deemster Cowley : Two thousand Mr Kerruish : That is pure conjecture what? Passengers? and nothing you say can be substan- tiated. Mr Cain: Two thousand pounds for the whole winter. Mr Cain: I have gone into these figures as well as the hon. member. The Deemster Cowley: How many pas- traffic can be carried by an extension of sengers? the Promenade bus service, and the Mr Cain: On page 15 of the Varley route to Groudle could be covered by Report it is stated that passenger re- the Road Services and the Douglas Cor- ceipts fnr the years 1054/55, excluding poration and, as members will be aware, the Snaefell section, were £34.000. De- a co-ordinating committee is working the ducting the winter receipts of £2,000, we matter out between the Road Services get £32,000 for the summer season and and the Corporation. This can be done taking it over the two years we get and it would afford a greater comfort £35,363 for the better season of 1955, To and a greater convenience to the visitors. get the picture for the summer months A road to Snaefell summit would solve of 1956, on the Douglas-Ramsey section. the question of giving visitors a greater for the 381,700 passengers carried, the convenience and it would provide much- revenue was £35,663 and the amount needed employment, and also as far as paid per passenger is ls lOid. On the the Groudle Road is concerned. The Snaefell section the 51,785. passengers construction of a road to Snaefell sum-

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER, 12, 1956 171 mit would also make it available to Finance recently stated that the losses motorists and public vehicles, and we are simply staggering and that public must not forget that motorists more than transport in Ulster has accumulated pay for the upkeep of the roads. losses amounting to over 4i million Mr Kerruish : Question. pounds, yet here we are recommending this Court to make nationalised trans- Mr Cain: I am right in what I said, port in this Island. Again, the report that the motorists more than pay for the says "the effect which the closing of the upkeep of their roads. railway will have upon our road trans- The Attorney-General : What about port system" and goes on to say "in the petrol tax alone ? absence of the M.E.R. a very much Mr Moore: And tyre tax. greater strain will be placed on our roads between Douglas, Laxey and Ram- Mr Cain: As to the 'carrying of the sey involving increased expenditure on 130.000 passengers on the Laxey to maintenance and increased congestion Ramsey section, it is unlikely that more ori the highway." That, in my opinion, than four or five buses would be needed need not be considered. This is where I to carry these people. Not the 43 buses disagree with the Varley Report. The which the hon. member for Garff said reoort says we will need 17 extra duling the last debate in Tynwald. When double-decker buses. We in the Isle of I read on page 11 of the report that "a Man Road Services are prepared— bus is a bus anywhere in the British Isles; it is too ordinary a form of con- Mr Irving: On a point of order, Your veyance and there is no novelty in Excellency, is it in order for the hon. traversing country roads in such a member to take part in this debate and vehicle, seeing the same sort of scenery vote on this resolution when he, and an- as one finds in so many places" yet we other member of this Court, is a director find that there are 200,000 using this of the Road Services, who will benefit service in Douglas during the busy from the closing of the railway? I do weeks. One might as well say the same not think for one moment that my hon. thing about motor-cars, but the trend of 'friend will do anything to the dis- public tastes over the post-war years advantage of the company but I would has been for road transport. 1 can say like a ruling on this matter as I feel the that with the full knowledge of the facts hon. member is an interested party. and can understand the claims of the Mr Moore: Your Excellency, through- visitors when we consider the comfort, out the Parliaments of the world it is the flexibility and other attributes of the custom for an hon. member who is present-day buses. The route to Groudle making his maiden speech to proceed is restricted to the Manx Electric Rail- without interruption. way and no - objection has ever been made against this because it is obvious Mr Kerruish : Your Excellency, is it in that if the Promenade bus services were order for the hon. member to say "we extended to Groudle there would be in the Isle of Man Road Services are little or no traffic to Groudle for the prepared"--lo make the Court an offer— Manx Electric Railway. It was not my as the hon. member has done? intention to make these comparisons but Mr Cain: I was not making an offer, I have to deal with the deprecatory and I_ was just saying the Road Services unnecessary remarks made on the buses. could carry the extra people with ten The cause and effect here are the same double-decker buses—not the 43 which as anywhere else—the public preference the hon. member said, which is absolute for road transport and the consequent nonsense. loss of traffic by the railways. On the other hand, there are continually mount- Mr Kerruish . I said seventeen. ing costs. At the end of the year the Mr Cain: And I said ten to give the nationalised Lritish Railways will have Court the information. lost 120 million pounds. In the Irish Republic losses are about 5i million Mr Corkhill : Provided we wait long pounds and, in Ulster, the Minister of enough. Laughter.)

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. 172 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, .1956

Mr Cain: If. the M.E.R. closes down the Island. We are asked to commit our the people will be carried. Governor, as Chancellor of the Ex- chequer, for the remainder of his term Mr Nivison: If they are patient to the finding of 37,000 a year, and enough. (Laughter.) three Governors after him. Mr Cain: And at no cost to the Deem ster Cowley: Assuming the Government. And there will be no need whole thing is continued, for extra maintenance of the roads or congestion of traffic. We have no con- Mr Cain: And if we buy it the Gover- gestion on the roads of this Island and nor, for the remainder of his term, has ten more buses will not make the to find £37,000 a year, and three slightest difference. The Bolton Report, Governors after him have to find the as far as I can see, agrees with the con- same amount. During the short time I clusion of the advisory committee, the have been in this hon. Court I have Varley Committee, that "in these cir- noticed the expenditure of something cumstances it is not possible to make a like £46,000 and yesterday's agenda case for keeping the Manx Electric voted £21,500 for the Rushen drainage, Railway open!' That report estimated El2,000 for Michael drainage, £99,500 that, to keep it open would cost £674,000. for the Highway Board and I suppose Tynwald must have doubted that, Look- we shall have to vote £75,000 for the ing through the speech of. the hon. slaughterhouse. In addition we are member for Garff, he thought it should committed to spending many thousands he done for £10,000 a year so the Court of pounds to implement the Visiting appointed another committee and that Industry - Commission's report, which committee reports that the cost is to be has been adopted by this Court. What £744,000—which is an increase of are we going to do? How are we going £70,000. Does any member of the to finance the swimming pool? The Court think that a reasonable cost? Yet Visiting Industry Commission's report the attitude of some members seems to says, "Government assistance should be be "keep it going at any cost." Mr Var- made available on a large scale to assist ley has been concerned with both reports in the modernisation of hotels and and yet he has not changed his mind in boarding houses. Where are we going the second report. Mr Bolton has also to find that? Mr Corlett, the hon. mem- been concerned with both reports, and I ber for Glenfaba, said this morning that hope he will not change his mind when we are committed to an expenditure of it comes to the voting. I can only say, £750,000 for a reservoir for the south of as a new member, that after reading the Island. both reports, the first committee—when Mr Alfred Teare: The south and west they presented their report—did not think £074,000 reasonable; and the of the Island. second report confirms the first report Mr Cain: Where is the money coming that it is impossible to make the proposi- from for all these things which are much tion reasonable. • I do not blame the more important to our economic life committee. They have done their best than the continuation of the Manx Elec- and this Court should be very grateful tric Railway? These thousands continue as they are really telling us that this to he voted from this Court month after Island cannot afford to keep this rail- month. Where is it going to end? What way going when other forms of trans- will the consequences be? We are cash- port can do the same job at no cost to ing in at present on account of the the. Government. After all, this is not a troubled time in England, but if, as we social service, a health service or an old- all hope, times improve in England and age pension. It is supposed to be an taxes which come under the Corm-non amenity for visitors and I could suggest Purse are reduced, our income will suffer many amenities that would appeal to accordingly. May I ask His- Honour visitors much better than keeping this what-the initials mean which follow the railway going. There is the matter of name of Mr .T. W. Fowler, who, I learn, travel to and from the Island, which is is chairman of the Light Transport a more important thing than travel in ' League, A.M.Inst.B.E. I have looked up

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. TYNWALD COURT, DECEM/3ER; 12, 1956 73

Whitakers, but can find no such initials, national ownership of our internal trans- although there are hundreds of abbre- port. For that reason I support this viated titles. resolution, particularly when it is given in the light of the assurance given by His Deernster Cowley: I cannot tell you Honour the Clerk of the Rolls. I do think oil hand, but we have it. that the speech of the hon. member for Mr Cain : I suggest to hon. members East Douglas, who presumes to criticise that Mr Fowler would .like to see all the action of the directors of the Manx tight railways continued, no matter what Electric Railway, makes rather curious the cost. I am chairman of the IVIanx hearing in view of the conditions which Rose Society and I would like everybody we all know exist in the case of the to grow roses. In exactly the same way Isle of Man Railway Company. I would suggest that Mr Fowler is really trying to keep the railway going so that Mr Cain: We are not asking for any he and his friends can come over and money. I don't think that there is any play with it. There is another thing parallel or any call for such a. statement. which I would like to ask His Honour. He ,mentioned in his speech this morning Mr Siincocks: I think we have 'lis- that you could buy second-hand or scrap tened to a vested interests point of view rolling stock. Where is that coming being put forward. I was accused of from? From some derelict railway this yesterday and wrongly accused, and which has closed down because they at least it can be said that I have no can't afford to keep going. And I would direct connection with any of those like to say this to honourable Labour firms mentioned. I think it is wrong members, that there is plenty of work that it should be permitted for a director for the unemployed if only Boards of of a company with a direct interest in Tynwald and local authorities will put the killing of this railway to take part in Tynwald and lacal authorities will put this debate. (Hear, hear.) And at the up schemes for the consideration of His same time I say that it would be wholly Excellency in the proper, way. There wrong if he were permitted to vote. is plenty of work in this Island without going to the M,E.R. to get it. All we are The Speaker: I- think he may not vote doing here, as far'as I can see, is that we at all under the standing Orders, but are taking this railway over, but what there is no hindrance whatever to him are we going to do? We are going to speaking and taking part in the debate. purchase the railway at a cost of three- I think whatever interest he has some quarters of a million pounds. It was of the information he gave was of value mentioned this morning that this was to the Court. going to continue for 60 years, not 10 or 20. I want to put it to the members of The Governor: I think it cannot be this Court that they should consider said that the hon. member has a direct what might happen in the next 10 or 20 pecuniary interest. He may have an years in the air, and I venture to say indirect interest. Probably every mem- that we would do much better by putting ber of the Court has, but I don't think our money into that field than into this he has a direct pecuniary interest. railway. I would say to my colleague, the hon. member for East Douglas, on Mr Taggart: On a point of order, the question of co-ordination of trans- Your Excellency, are you making a rul- port, that he knows very well that we ing that the hon. member is entitled to are trying to co-ordinate, and that buses vote? could serve the Groudle route, but at no The Governor: Yes. cost to the Government. The Attorney-General: He hasn't a Mr Simcocks I would like to say to direct pecuniary interest. the senior member for Middle that un- like him I did have the courage of !fly Mr Stephen: As there is a conflict convictions, and I think it is fair to say between Mr Speaker and Your Excel- that I was the only candidate in the elec- lency I move that the House adjourn to tions who came out firtnly on the side of its own chamber.

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. 176 T'StNWALI) COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956

Mr Edward Callister: My name was Lt.-Cdr. Quine: Is there any penalty mentioned, Mr Speaker, and I feel that stated in Standing' Orders? I must say something. I feel very strongly about this matter. I accepted The Speaker: No. His Excellency's ruling that there was Mr Stephen: It is suggested that I nothing in Standing Orders about a have beeii precipitate and I accept your director being a member of the Boards of Tynwald. He replied that if I wanted rebuke, Mr Speaker. I raised it be- it altered I should refer the matter to cause you said that the hon. member the Standing Orders Committee. I have was not entitled to vote and the Gov- written in already on the question, and ernor overruled you. this will arise later on. I do abide by The Speaker: I don't remember say- your decision, Mr Speaker, that the hon. ing that. member should decide, whatever the moral issue may be It is a matter for Members: Yes, you said it. him to decide. I am exceptionally glad that this question has been raised, and Mr Stephen: And you quoted rule 68. it will come up again at the next Tyn- The Speaker: In that case I accept wald Court. your correction. We have had time to Lt.-Cdr, Quine: May I ask if there is go into the question more fully since, any penalty stated with regard to vot- and I would not say that now. The ing by people who have a pecuniary House will now adjourn and, sit in Tyn- interest? wald. The members may proceed back The Speaker: There is in the case of informally. Boards but I have never heard of it The House adjourned and resumed in respect of Tynwald. in Tynwald.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Wednesday, December 12, 1956.

The Keys members returned to the decided. As the Speaker stated, on Tynwald Chamber and the Court re- 12th May, 1885, there is no rule of the sumed. House on the subject. He recommended The Speaker: May I make a brief that each member should be guided by statement on the matter. I have just his own feelings in the matter, and found another paragraph which, I think, should vote, or abstain from voting, as throws a very complete light on the he thought fit; though he added that whole question of personal interests in- members should be aware that they ran volved in Bills. "The extent to which the the risk of having their votes disallowed rule of personal interest in a vote given by the subsequent action of the House." by a member against a private Bill, I think that covers it. which would create a project intended to Mr Cain: I am. voting against the compete with an undertaking in which proposition because I think it is an un- he has a pecuniary interest, is as yet un- reasonable cost to the Government.

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956 177

Mr Irving; I _accept that. I did not of the track. I think it would be fair to want to suggest that Mr Cain would act state that the figure of £2,500 as a con- in any other way. templated loss is a pessimistic figure. The Governor: Mr Simcocks was When we have already provided a figure speaking. of £3,000 a year for direct maintenance, it would not be unreasonable to think Mr Sirncocks: The reason I support that the concern would break even if it this resolution is that I regard it as a was acquired. I am anxious it should step in the right direction, and a step be in the hands of a Board of Tynwald. towards the ideal of transport in the Isle And it may be thought convenient for of Man — co-ordination, which I think the amendment to provide for some can only be obtained by public owner- reference to the fact, and that the duties ship of transport. The report we are of the committee appointed might be res. considering to-day does in fact, refer to tricted to the question of consideration the M.E.R. as a national asset, and in of an appropriate Bill. those circumstances, I cannot see that we can do anything else than adopt the Mr Farrant; I am sure the Court is report. It is not a question of whether extremely grateful to His Honhur, the we can afford it. It is a question—can learned Deemster, for the way in which we afford to be without it? If we he has presented this report, and for the examine the question of the finances in- lucid explanation which he has given us, volved, I think the figure for the first 10 and the very convincing way he has put years is £225,000. The report states the whole case. I am equally grateful that the seven miles from Douglas to to the hon. member, Mr Bolton, for his Laxey will require 1,500 tons of steel remarks, because they touched on the rail, The Snaefell line is four miles part which I am a little apprehensive long and would therefore need approxi- about. That is, the part of this line mately 800 tons, a total of 2,300 tons, from Laxey to Ramsey, which appears which at £35 a ton, equals £80,500. I to be very much in the melting pot. 1, am advised that the cost of rails is for my part, intend to support this approximately £35 per ton, if bought in resolution, because I feel that it is very sufficient quantities. The four new cars important, and of vital importance to the at £8,000 apiece equals £32,000, making Isle of Man that this railway is kept in a total of imported material for the first existence. And although I cannot agree 10 years, £112,500, which is half the with the hon. member, Mr Cain, I would contemplated expenditure. The other like to take the opportunity of con- £112,500 is for direct labour in laying gratulating him on the very able speech the track and for extra maintenance and he made and some of the information he indirect labour in the form of home- gave us. I feel sure he is going to be a produced items— sleepers, ballast, etc., very valuable member, not only of the and equals £11,250 a year. This, sir, lower House, but also of the Court. But begins to take the appearance of an un- I am concerned about this part of the employment scheme — a 50' per cent. railway from Laxey to Ramsey. I would labour project. The normal wages one like the assurance that adequate main- might contemplate are £7 10s a week. tenance will be guaranteed for the next The average unemployment pay is ap- 10 years on that part of the railway. We proximately half that figure. Therefore, are told it is in good condition. I would sir, we can reckon that by paying like to have an assurance that it is going £112,500 in wages, we are saving to be kept in that condition, because I £56,250 in dole. When spread over the have an uneasy feeling that, at the end full 10 years, it will reduce the annual of 10 years, it might go out of existence. payment by 5.6 thousand per annum. The learned Deernster stressed the We must have regard to the fact that of effects of a derelict railway. I venture the £4,000 which are earmarked for to suggest that a derelict railway from maintenance, £1,000 is for the cars them- Laxey to Ramsey would just be as selves, and £3,000 for the Maintenance disastrous as if the whole railway was to

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. 178 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1959

go out of existence. I don't agree with because money was being spent, but be- Mr Bolton that the greatest number of cause it was being spent to such poor passengers are from Douglas to Laxey. advantage, such as digging holes to There are a certain number of people fill them in again. I am not averse to that only go to Groudle. All the rest go spending money on a live enterprise— on to Ramsey. You have only got to see and I thank the hon. member of the the summer queues waiting for the cars Council, Mr Farrant, for that word."live" to take them back to Douglas, and to see —and the railway is a live enterprise. the relief cars. There is always a large Reference has been made to figures number of people travelling in the which imply that not many people use summer the whole length of the railway. the railway, but in the sub-committee's I feel that this Government has got to first report it says that during the whole face up to the fact that this railway summer of 1955, that 70 per cent. of our must be kept going. The hon. member visitors used the railway and that 10 per for Glenfaba takes a very gloomy view cent, of them went up Snaefell. I think of things, He was a promising lad whilst that is a very important proportion of in Garff, but since he has gone west, he our visitors to the Island, and what was seems too apprehensive. We have got even more significant to me, was that in to make bold decisions, and ;look to the September of that year, when everything future, and for a long-term policy. I else had closed down, about 42,000 out don't believe that the Isle of Man cannot of the 44,000 people here—that is about afford it. It can afford it perfectly well, 90 per cent.—of all visitors went on the and we have plenty of brains in this railway. Why? Because there was Court to plan and see that this money is nothing else for them. (Laughter.) we'll spent, and if it is put into the hands Mr Bolton: There were the buses! of -a board of Tynwald, to see it is run progressively and for the benefit of the Mr Radcliffe: We have heard all about Island. The hon. member for Glenfaba the buses, and I have a note on that asked Is there a reasonable chance of matter. I think there are many mis- getting a reasonable return?" Well, conceptions as to the various transport. possibly not in actual cash. But we We could have a fast tram between Dou- know perfectly well that we will get a glas and Ramsey, it is true, but I think very good return from visitors, more the case would be met if the present money in circulation, and one of the buses would speed up. I have followed most valuable assets which should be them too often going at a steady 20 retained for the benefit of this Island in m.p.h. Why should they not travel the future. faster? Mr Cain: And safely? Mr Radcliffe: I am going to support, without any reservation, the adoption of Mr Radcliffe: They could travel safely the report. Mr Corlett, the hon. mem- at greater speeds with proper main- ber for Glenfaba, said that when it was tenance. What about buses in other referred to a committee, members were parts of the United Kingdom? They do horrified at the prospective cost. Speak- not travel at 20 m.p.h. ing for myself, I voted for the committee The Attorney-General: Neither do they because I was horrified at the thought do that speed in the Isle of Man. that the Manx Electric Railway would Mr Radcliffe: You work out the time die and not at the thought of the cost, it takes for a bus to get from Ramsey to but from time to time, during the short Douglas, and you will find out. time I have_ been a member of this Court, 1 have criticised the expenditure Mr Nivison: The visitors who come on some of the items which have come here are not in such a hurry. before us. As has been mentioned by Mr Radcliffe: No. they are not in such the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr a hurry, and that is where the Manx Corlett, and the hon. member for East Electric Railway is valuable. A journey Douglas, Mr Cain, I have criticised not on it gives them a half day's outing, and

14M, Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. TYNWAL15 COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956 179 it is appreciated. There are several Mr Cain: Oh, British Railways. I members who think that the Manx thought you were talking about the Isle Electric Railway has had its day. I have of Man Railway. (Laughter.) a hope and a faith that its day is yet to Mr Radcliffe: They have had no ex- Come. perience with electric railways or scenic Mr Nivison: You have a "hope"! railways. I wanted to be brief in my remarks, Your Excellency, and I would, Mr Cain: At h cost of 2750,000, just say that this matter has my whol& hearted support. I ask the Court not to Mr Radcliffe: We have had the Pos- consider the profit and lOsS account of sible profits and loss put before us, but the railway as such, but rather to dm- we have to value it not in pounds, sider the profit that will accrue to the shillings and pence, but because of its Isle of Man as a visiting resort by its value to the Island. (Hear, hear.) We retention. have heard of the Steam Ferries and other things going. If the Manx Electric Mr Quayle: Your Excellency, I rise to Railway goes, then we will have our support the proposition, and to develop open roads, and nothing else to offer, the argument which has been put for- and visitors can get open roads in their ward by the hon. member for Olenfaba. own neighbouring countryside. A lady Mr Corlett, who referred to the cost of commented to me the other day that the scheme over 20 years. We have there were no longer any thatched heard the total figure referred to as cottages in the Island, and she had ex- 2744,000. pected to find them. But we have gone Mr Corkhill: He has a right to. modern; we have no thatched cottages. Mr Quayle: Certainly he has a right to Mr McFee: Would you like to live in do so if he wishes, but, as chairman of one? the Board of Education, he has never Mr Radcliffe: I don't see why those said that over 20 years education in this who wish to do so, should not live in one. Island has cost us 28,000,000. Let us I understand they are perfectly warm. examine the year -to year costs of run- ning this railway to-day: We have some Mr McFee: And unhealthy! 217,000 in the first year, and if the Court Mr Radcliffe: The point of my remark approves the resolution, then I would is that the visitors, when they come plead for the co-operation of the boards here, do not expect to find a modern of Tynwald to help in this offer. There metropolis: they want something dif- will be an obvious opportunity for the ferent. Some question was raised as to Forestry, Lands and Mines Board to do the qualifications of the gentlemen who so, because of the need for new equip- signed the various reports and they were ment which they can supply, sleepers more or less criticised by one speaker as and so on, and the Highway Board too, being interested only in steam railways. in clearing the track. Varley, Patterson and Fowler, I am told, Mr McFee: There are no sleepers on were all members of British Railways. the Highway Board! (Laughter.) I believe one of them is an accountant Mr Quayle: Quite seriously, as a mem- who, in my opinion, would have no ber of a board of Tynwald, I think all knowledge of railways apart from books. boards should do their utmost to assist These three officials and Mr Varley this project. Leaving labour and timber were concerned with the running of alone (both of which commodities can British Railways, which the hon. mem- be procured locally), the hon. member ber for East Douglas says are being run for Rushen has mentioned the necessity at a loss of 2120,000,000 a year. for new steel. By modern methods, Mr Cain: 2120,000,000 a year? these rails can be taken out of the track. renovated, and put back again. The Mr Radcliffe: Yes, British Railways. advances in modern welding have been

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. 180 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956 such in the last five years that this work the clientele which formerly travelled could be done at Derby Castle and very by the railways and the M.E.R. has little new steel would be needed and an suffered in consequence, but then if you opportunity would be given for the open three shops with a limited custom creation of an appreunticeship class available, I suppose one is bound to which would turn out craftsmen. These suffer are the reasons why I propose to sup- port the resolution. Mr Cannel!: That is what you have Mr Kelly: Your Excellency, a very done. (Laughter.) critical examination of a take-over Mr Kelly: To come back to the point was made some years ago, when the i-aised by the hon. member for East House of Keys had the Health Service Douglas, Mr Cain, he said that the Dou- Bill before them, and no one at that time glas Corporation had been partly suggested that the health service was instrumental in the closing of the Steam going to cost us £6,000,000 in a matter of Ferries. The buses had been a very ten years, and to-day various figures forceful competitor to the ferries and have been put forward by several mem- so the Isle of Man Government, through bers as an excuse perhaps for doing the Harbour Board, lost revenue of £750 away with the idea that the Govern- a year, which the Ferries were paying ment should become the owner of a in rent (although I believe that in railway. Now, Your Excellency, I think later years, because of the poorer it is quite wrong for hon. members to patronage the sum was reduced to £50 a approach this matter in the way they year). And then the Douglas Corpora- have done. When his Honour Deemster tion with their buses "attacked" the Cowley, some years ago, came be- other end of the promenade. There was fore this Court with a similar pro- not only a service to Douglas Head, but posal to buy the airport for £200,000, one to Onchan Head too, and we find he pointed out the advantage it that the Manx Electric Railway suffered would be to the Island, and we have very severely financially from this com- never regretted the step we took. In petition. the meantime, the airport has been developed in very considerable way. Mr Kaneen: They got compensation. Large sums of money have been spent Mr Kelly: Yes, they got compensation, on building the terminal buildings and but they would have preferred to have extending runways and so on, and that enjoyed the patronage of the visitors project has provided work and yielded and giving a good service. This is a dividends for the people in the way of its service which has been going on for a continued success of our visiting indus- number of years and I suggest it is our try, and here we have an opportunity to- duty to hold on to it at all costs. Now, day, Your Excellency, to do something I don't know which way the hon. mem- for the future of the Isle of Man. In a ber for West Douglas, Mr Bolton, will matter of 10 years, £225,000 is going to vote. He signed the report, but if his be spent on re-conditioning the railway, remarks • in this Court to-day are any- providing some new cars, and at the same thing to go on, it would appear to me time providing employment for a fair that he is going to vote against it. If number of people, both permanent and the resolution is rejected, I think the temporary, and those temporary people Isle of Man will lose a tremendous will be employed at a time when work is amenity. From what Mr Bolton said most needed in the Isle of Man. I think this morning, it looks as if he is going to this alone is a very good reason why the fight it. railway should be sustained. The other very important reason as far as I am Mr Bolton: I did not say I would concerned, is the part this railway has fight it. played in the development of Ramsey. Mr Kelly: And I hope you will vote The buses came on the road in 1926, and for it. We have seen so many things of course, they claimed a large part of disappear—the Incline Railway on Dou-

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956 181 glas Head, Port Soderick railway. We ordinated body of people to help the had the Port Soderick railway and the present management in running this Marine Drive— railway, Mr Radcliffe: And horse racing. Sir Ralph Stevenson: Your Excellency_ when this hon. Court adopted this motion Mr Kelly: Yes, we had the horse last June I hoped that the figures of ex- racing at Belle Vue. penditure contained in the report of the Mr Nivison: And the donkeys on the sub-committee might prove, on re- shore, (Laughter.) examination, to be unnecessarily high, for a scenic railway carrying light loads. Mr Kelly: Yes, the donkeys on the That hope of mine was disappointed. As shore as well! But how much longer you have all seen, the figures put for- can we afford to lose these amenities ward by the barlier committee have been until we shall have nothing at all. Ram- fully justified. The liabilities which we, sey has accommodation for the visiting in this latest commission, have put for- industry, but the internal visiting trade ward exceed those of the previous com- has gone down very considerably to mittee because we have foreseen the what it used to be. We get support from possibility of taking over the railway, the country and from the Royal Air and had to legislate, therefore, for pos- Force at Jurby, but it is only internal sible continuing losses and certainly in- trade. creased maintenance; whereas, the origi- Mr Nicholls: And the park. nal sub-committee recommended that the railway should be abandoned. Mr Kelly: Yes, the park comes into it, Weighing up the advantages and the dis- but everything depends on the future of advantages, we all come to the con- the visiting industry. Now, with this clusion that the Island would lose more internal and external trade, a very, very b3F abandoning the railway than by con- important part of Ramsey's business in tinuing it. We must not overlook two the summer are the buses bringing the aspects of the matter. The first is we visitors in, and the railways bringing are creating a precedent in nationalising them in, and even the charas. But most a means of public transport with all the of all, the trams. The trams have possible consequences which it might played a very large part in providing entail in the future. Secondly, the funds Ramsey with the general summer trade. to purchase and maintain this railway I have seen as many as five double cannot be conjured out of thin air. They trams coming in within 45 minutes, have got to come out of our own pockets. carrying practically 500 people. I have These are hard facts, nevertheless. seen the steam trains coming in with I hope that the Court will endorse this something like 500 to 600 people on one resolution. train. What is going to happen if we do away with the electric trams and put on Mr Kerruish: I wish to support the a service of double-decker buses? You resolution, Your Excellency, and I should like to say that I felt there was justifi- yourselves have seen three or four cation for bringing in the suggestion double-decker buses in convoy, and it is that we should have a further oppor- practically impossible to pass them tunity of investigating these things and going through Laxey and on some parts to consider whether we should buy the • of the road. If the tramway was not railway. I have always been in favour there to cater for the large number of of progress and, in this matter of in- people, they say that people can be vestigation, I think it is proper to ex- carried by 10 buses. I do not believe it. press one's appreciation of the efforts of I do not think for one moment that the chairman, His Honour the Clerk of those buses could carry what is now con- the Rolls, whose undoubted skill has re- veyed. I do hope that the members of sulted in the reduction of what we were the Court will be supporting this take- told was an irreducible sum, and which over. It will be of tremendous ad- also resulted in a unanimous report. No vantage to us if and when we have a co- matter how much the hon. member for

Manx Electric Railway.—Purchase by Tynwald. 182 TYNWALb COURT, • DECEMBER 12, 1956

West Douglas (Mr Bolton) may waver, made it perfectly plain that I regarded it is a unanimous report, and in order this as extreme costs. These costs were to achieve that desirable object it has not carried to the extreme, to get a unani- only been Mr Bolton who has had to mous report. Every possible contingency concede points. We have all had to do has been allowed for and it was brought that. Mr Bolton, in addressing the home to the committee the advisable Court this morning, suggested that there aced to do so in the initial stages of the was very little in the idea that road take-over. instead of budgetting, :low- traffic would be multiplied to the extent ever, at the rate of £10,000 we were ad- that there would not be considerable res- vised to build up the money and to triction on our roads, and later the hon. create a new track which would have a member for East Douglas (Mr Cain) ridi- CIO-year-life. The hon. member also culed the idea that some 43 double- mentioned comparisons. He spoke of the decker buses, which I previously quoted, now reservoir and dividends but no one would be necessary, and stated that the is going to suggest that if they are neces- people could be carried in ten buses. The sary that they will not pay dividends. figure I gave of 43 buses was not the re- Mr Corlett : I hope the hon. member is quirement in my opinion—the figure was not trying to suggest that we are object- quoted by Mr Humpidge in his report ing if a thing does not pay dividends. A and it is one to which we should give no reservoir does not yield a dividend in doubt. Mr Bolton also attempted to the real sense of the word but it pays ridicule the enthusiasm with which a dividend in other ways. Messrs Humpidge and Fowler ap- proached their task, it is an enthusiasm Mr Keiruish: That is just the point. 1 which I feel should imbue every mem- would like to tell the hon. member that ber of this Court, because those gentle- the railway may not pay a direct divi- men have a greater association with dend but we shall get indirect dividends these problems. Now, Your Excellency, from the visitors. To keep this railway the next speaker was the hon. member in complete operation what is this for Glenfaba, Mr Corlett, About five £600,000 or £700,000. It isn't even the years ago the Court, at that time, was cost of one ship for the Steam Packet facing a financial crisis and the hon. Coinpany- member was there with other members. A Member : Half the cost. I was described as a dismal Jeremiah but I would not apply that to the hon. Mr Kerruish: It is not even the cost member. Rather would I call him a of one Viscount. It is not even the cost prophet of gloom. The forecasts he of one year's Health Services' expendi- made on that occasion were completely ture. Now, Your Excellency, when the inaccurate. I would like to recall that, hon. member for East Douglas spoke to at the same time Mr Speaker was ad- the Court he made great play of the lines dressing the Court and he said that he and the angle of their maintenance. He had been sitting in the hon. Court since :suggested that overhead lines had not 1919. He said he had heard similar pro- received sufficient maintenance, and phecies but the Island's economy had that, for instance, there was the great always proved resilent and had over- need for spending accumulated money come the prophecies and had gone on there. In Appendix "A" it states that and on without failing. The hon, mem- the overhead wiring has been replaced ber recalled that, when addressing the and that maintenance is going on Court I had suggested that the sum of steadily. The hon. member went on to £10,000 might be sufficient to maintain tell us this railway. Mr Bolton told the court Mr Cain. I never mentioned overhead this morning that the forecast life of the lines. • railway, under the new proposal, would Mr Kerruish : Not on maintenance? be one of some 60 years. If you asso- ciate that with the figure, the extreme Mr Cain : No. figure, of £700,000-you will find that it Mr Kerruish :I'm sorry. It must have will average out at something like been somebody else but I know it have £12,000 a year, and, Your Excellency, I someone in opposition—andthere ere

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. T12NWAL5 COURT, iptctmlatn 12, 1956 183 been so few members in opposition operation, even with such people as the (Laughter.) There was another point hon. member for East Douglas and the raised in regard to buses in the offer hon. member for Ramsey. Another point made by a bus c otnpany. But I can I wish to mention relates to the observa- remember the offer of this company to tions on the derelict railway, but two provide a service by Maughold Church railways have recently re-opened, one of into Ramsey. The bus services thought them in Wales, with a consequent raising they were on a good thing. They had it of the population in the area. If you laid on before they had the railway take this problem and try and sum- killed off. The Highway Board opened marise it you will find that there are up the road and everything was de- finitely laid on, even to the cost of two main factors at least. I think that transporting the school children. At the is o. There is the question of the com- pany being engaged in the visiting in- moment there are a few school children dustry and there is the employment who need transport. The cost of this factor. With regard to the amenity of service worked out by the Education Authority was £67 annually. The bus the concern in relation to the visiting industry, many members have dealt conmany so generously offering in the with this point more ably than I could. public interests to run a service wanted gi1,000 to do the same job. That is what Stress has been laid on the recommenda- tions of the Visiting Industry Commis- you are going to get if it gets in the sion, and I might also mention the report hands of the old monopoly. He also ridiculed the service of the M.E.R. which which was received from the Tourist runs 20 cars a day. He did not tell us, Board, and I do think that sufficient has however, that the requirement to main- been said already for the Court to realise the importance of that particular factor. tain and drive them is merely two But the hon. member for Rushen, the drivers and two conductors. senior member for Rushen, indicated Mr Cain: It is in the report. also the importance of the employment factor. At the present time this com- Mr Kerruish: And you ridiculed it. pany employs 50 men throughout the winter and double that number at least Mr Cain: They are down to rock- throughout the summer season. If you bottom. consider that if these men are thrown Mr Kerruish: The same maintenance on the unemployment register and that staff is there for 20 cars as for two cars. it may cost some £.15 a week to provide work for them that is £19,500 a year. Mr Cain: -It is in the report. The Court will also bear in mind that it has been stressed in the report that Mr Kerruish: Whether it is or not I sleepers for the track could be provided can assure you it is needed. He also locally and would be the means of pro- went on with regard to the bus view viding Useful and productive employ- and the company's willingness to take ment through the Forestry, Mines and over the route and supply the necessary Lands Board. I have sufficient confi- buses. I would like the Court to recall dence in the progressive attitude of the the observations of Mr Howden in his members of this Court who opposed the report. He says "I do not consider it original report and to-day I have suffi- desirable to allow a situation to develop, cient confidence in those same members if it can reasonably be avoided, under to support this report and place the which the whole of the public transport Island once more on the road to pros- services of the Island will have to be perity, and its people, I think, will ulti- dealt with by means of road vehicles." mately benefit by that decision. That was Howden's view and I feel that in recent days that view has become a The Speaker: Could we now take the more popular one. The way the Suez vote? affair has gone in recent weeks it is ob- vious that to have a second string to our Mr 1VreFee: I will not keep the Court bow is not a bad thing. The Court many minutes, Your Excellency. I want knows my views about getting into co- to say right at the outset that I am in

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald 184 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956

favour of the resolution, but I feel that Islands. One of the important things co-ordination is absolutely essential in about that film was that the Channel future for our transport services. We Islands were boasting that they had a have to be fair to the opposition. I have coastal footpath all round their Island one on the right and one on the left of They were making a good deal out of me this afternoon. One question that this, I just wondered what would they should be asked is this, is it really neces- -think if they could boast, as well as sary as a public transport service in this having a coastal footpath, that they had Island? At the present time I feel we a marine scenic railway. I feel that are over supplied with transport ser- they would make a great deal of capital vices. This small Island is provided but of that and boost it as rural amenity. with four separate public service under- takings and everyone one of them com- Cries of "Vote." petes against the others. There is cut- Mr Moore: We have heard of a com- throat competition to such an extent that pany which has been running for over every one of them, and that includes the 50 years. They have done their utmost Douglas Corporation, are in financial to make it pay, and they find now at -the difficulties and I feel that so far as the end of 50 years that they have failed. It public transport services are concerned is not the first time that a company has there should be co-ordination. But, and failed in doing business. Quite a num- this has really brought me to my feet, ber of good companies have been in the the hon. member for Garff said the bus Isle of Man and have failed. I have company is, provided the negotiations no doubt that this company was good. with the Highway Board are successful, Some people talk about £700,000, but . prepared to open up a service to Maug- it will be practically a million before it hold. Weil, I have never heard of it yet, is finished. My experience is that it and I• am a member of the Highway grows and grows and before you know Board. I have heard of repeated re- where you are there is another 30 per quests and pressure placed on the High- cent added on to it. This company has way Board by persons in respect or come to this decision at the present agricultural interests in that area to time, they find they cannot make it pay open up the road from Maughold arid and they are about to liquidate the com- round by the Rhenaab and Ballaglass for pany. If the Isle of Man Government combine harvesters. The result of our want to go in for nationalisation they present system is the economic position can find something more interesting we find ourselves in to-day. We have too surely and go for something more many transport systems in the Island to- remunerative. day and the visitors who come to our shores are immediitely confronted with Mr Taggart: Would you support that? and openly complain about the high cost of fares and travel in the Isle of man. Mr Stephen: What about the Steam Packet? Mr Stephen: You are a member of the • Highway Board. Mr Moore: You had a fishing indus- try where you had 300 boats with seven Mr McFee: That is one of our respon- men each, that is 2,100 men, and they sibilities; to see that the fares and ser- went to Kinsale for two months and vices are reasonable, but reasonable to came back with £2 or £3 for their whom? Surely to both sides, if we are work. Some went to South America to be reasonable at all. A company cannot operate always at a loss. I want and some to South Africa. Then we to say this. I am. still in favour of the had the Foxdale Mines. What was. the operation of this undertaking because matter there? I understand when they of its amenity value. I was in London were doing badly the leader went along recently and there were shown to the and asked the men would they be pre- London Manx Society two films. One pared to accept less money. The older was The Isle of Bays" and the other ones said "yes," they had families, but was a feature film of the Channel the young men said "No" and out they

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald, TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956 185 got. Then we had the Laxey Mines, they did. He must have done so to convince didn't pay, and the only thing to do was the Court in the manner in which he to close down. And here we find this did. He, the hon. member, has ability company, anxious to do its best, but and I .am glad that we have such virile unless they are going to get some assist- young men to replace the older ones, ance they will have to close down. I now that we are getting on ourselves. don't know exactly what the limit of our With regard to this question, if we responsibility is going to be. If the guaranteed £2,000 or £3,000 for the company had come forward and said, next few years it would be a small mat- "Well, give us a subsidy of say £5,000 ter, but to take this action puts us on a a year," I would say "yes," and if they losing wicket, just as the M.C.C. were could not make it pay at least there yesterday. would be no other commitments and we would know what we were going to pay. Members: No, no. Surely when motor traffic came in a big way, I think it was about 1924, a shrewd Mr Moore:, When I look at the report business man would have brought in a of the sub-committee, I must say it is service between Douglas and Ramsey very good. It is signed by two or three, and worked together and they would and the other report is signed by five. not be in the same position that they I don't know what happened to the hon, are to-day. We all want the best in this member for West Douglas. He must world but some of us don't want the have been outflanked and forced to best at any price. That is the crux of surrender. That is the only explanation the whole thing. Every one of us wants I can put for it. We are talking to-day to see this railway kept going, but no about putting £700,000 into this rail- one wants to pay George Formby's "No way, and that would be the equivalent Limit." We want it to run; we are in of £100,000,000 if this action was to be Sympathy. We have heard so much taken in England. What would they about this scenic railway and that say in the House of Commons if that people won't come to the Island. The sum was asked for in respect of a scenic same was said about not opening the railway. There would be uproar. This pubs on Sunday, but people are still is squandermania — spending so much coming to the Island and they will con- money on a derelict railway, and where tinue to come whether the railway is will you be in 50 years time? The running or not. I cannot see how we House will be listening to members talk- can afford it in the position we are in ing the same way and looking down and at present. If we are going to sink a saying "Here they are—they are still at million in this company, then in the it." You will have a derelict railway near future, perhaps sooner than some then just as you have at the present of us are aware, the Isle of Man Railway time. I think the whole enterprise is Company will come to us asking us to dead, has been dead but has not fallen sink a million in their company. Why down yet, and I think the Court will shouldn't we? If we put one million in be well advised to think seriously this company, surely we ought to help before voting that this £700,000 be this other company over their difficulties thrown down the drain. If you wish to as well. We have two very good reports mix charity with sentiment, that is a here. There is no .getting away from different matter. I would suggest that that. I am sorry, being a new member there are better ways of providing em- to the House, I was not here when this ployment than by this proposition. We business started, but having read the can find ways and means if we really verbatim report I must congratulate the are alive to the question. hon. senior member for Garff on his speech on that occasion. He did excep- Mr Stephen: I move that the resolu- tionally well in putting up the case he tion be now put.

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. 186 TYNwAi,b COURT, ECEII4R i, 066

Deemster Cowley: Your Excellency, I Mr Bolton: I said "extended to carry am very much indebted to those hon. on.,, members of the Court, not only those who supported the resolution but to Deemster Cowley: That is not cor- those who honestly were against it. My rect. We were committing ourselves to only criticism is directed against the £25,000 for a year for ten years to run hon. member for West Douglas. He has it. We would be spending £130,000 told me the meaning of the words on permanent relaying and a consider- "Damning with faint praise." He says able sum on rolling stock. he was thinking of publishing a The Speaker: £230,000 altogether, minority report. Whether the change of heart was due to the persuasiveness of Deemster Cowley: Let us say his colleagues or an impending General £230,000—£225,000 to be exact. That Election I cannot say, but we gave way covers increased expenditure for main- at once to meet his wishes, and if he tenance and a lot of it is for possible took the view that he did this morning losses on working. Suppose we do he should have signed a minority report decide to go on with the continuance of and that would have been fairer to his the Ramsey to Laxey section of the line colleagues. He is very good at setting and our total commitments amount to up skittles to knock them down and he £754,000, a figure which hon. members proceeds to tell you about purchasing like to call a round million—supposing the railway and doing nothing about it. we have spent £750,000 we have then got a railway line which will have been Mr Bolton: I said it has been sug- entirely relaid and be good for 60 years gested by a member of this Court. I if we wish to carry on. If we spend stick to that. that amount and the railway lasts for Deemster Cowley: I have not heard 60 years we can say it has been spent it. The hon. member prefers to answer on maintenance and a lot of it for losses. his opponents in advance. Nobody in But all we are asking at the moment is his senses would suggest that. that the railway be bought for £50,000 and that we carry it on for ten years At this point Mr Speaker said he had at £25,000 per annum, which provides suggested it. for maintenance and losses. But we Mr Bolton: I am suggesting that we may even turn the losses into a profit. try to settle down, because I believe the We have made suggestions about adver- first loss would be the best loss. tising and so on that may help to im- prove the traffic and these are sugges- Deemster Cowley: The hon. member tions that the new Board can take up. went to great pains to impress upon you But in setting out this amount we have that in adopting this report we were taken the pessimistic view in saying you binding ourselves to the railway for 60 may have to spend this money. We are years, but we are only asking that it not closing the eyes of the Court to that. be carried on for the next ten years at But who knows what the position of an annual cost of £25,000 in addition to transport will be at the end of ten the purchase price of £50,000. years? The question of a single line Mr Bolton: I did not say that we may.arise and consideration have to be should carry on for 60 years, but that given to it or there may be other means we should not incur these costs for ten of transport by then. But all you are committing yourselves to now is £25,000 years. a year plus the additional cost of pur- Deerrister Cowley: I did not interrupt chase. The hon. member for West Dou- the hon. member when he was speak- glas does agree that it does help the ing, and I wish he would not interrupt visiting industry and that unemploy- me. He said we would have to keep ment would be caused if the railway is the railway for 60 years. to be closed. His main criticism is of

Manx Electric Railway--PurchaSe by Tynwald. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956 187 the gentlemen who he joined with in in view of his associations with the con- bringing over. Mr Fowler is an Asso- cern, that he should refrain from voting. ciate Member of the Institute of British But he seems determined to do so. Ile Engineers and that information is to be says that, this scenic railway runs along found in any respectable publication. the main road for 13 miles. Supposing We have it in "Who's who." No criti- it does? Does he think that people cism can arise against Mr Humpidgc, prefer to ride on buses? who is a very important and knowledge- Mr Cain: Definitely. able man. He is general manager and engineer of Bradford City Transport. Deemster Cowley: You do suggest it? The criticism directed against them is that they dwelt too much on the value A Member: What about the horse of the railway to the Isle of Man. But trams? who is better to judge than Mr Fowler, Deemster Cowley: They can only pay who is interested in light railway traffic for a short time in the summer. I am and Mr Humpidge, who is a practical man. My criticism would be that either not going into the many details which of these gentlemen were not asked their have been put forward by the hon. mem- opinion as to its value to the visiting ber. because they are all capable of industry. I have not a great ansWer. They are actuated by the deal left to answer. I would like to say existence of the bus services. Mr Sim- M reply to the hon. member for North cocks, the hon. member for Rushen, Douglas that when he speaks about de- pointed out and emphasised the effect it predations I wonder does he realise how might hav-e on employment. The hon. much English money was put into this member for Ramsey, Mr Kelly, referred railway in the last 60 years, or what it to the effect of the closing of the railway would have cost to buy it. The original on Ramsey itself. That is a serious capital was £1,000,0000, but most of it matter to consider. Ten thousand nine was subsequently reduced. Optimistic hundred return tickets from Douglas to people they were, it is true, but not Ramsey were issued during the four people who were exploiting the Isle of summer months in 1955. That is quite a Man. I very much deprecate that those substantial number of people going to people should be held to have been ex- Ramsey, and I doubt if anything like ploiting the Isle of Man for private that number would be attracted to go profit. there by bus. I have listened with some Mr Edward Callister: I did not say interest to the remarks of the hon. that. member for Peel, He has re- referred to the failure of various Deemster Cowley: Those are the words industries in the Island—fishing, I have taken down. I ask the Court to particularly. We know the cause of it. hold that the people who put all that The Government has done everything money into the concern were not guilty possible to help the fishing industry in of depredations in the Isle of Man. I Peel, hut it is not their fault that men am sorry that I cannot answer the ques- cannot be found for fishing. He has re- tion of the hon. member for Garff as to ferred to the incline railway, Port the ownership of the small strip of land. Soderick tramways, and the Marine ft will be impossible to do so. Even Drive. I think, Your Excellency, these though we will own it, we have sufficient are the writings on the wall. Can any- renting rates to enable the railway to body say that if they are to be left in run without interference. May I say their present condition, that is not a re- one word in reply to the hon. member flection on the amenities of the Island as for East Douglas. I have no criticism to a visiting industry? It may be that it make to the fact that he has thought to has had an effect on the number of visi- oppose this proposal. I suggest to him, tors. They are, after all, the last straw.

MaDx Elecric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. 188 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956

Undoubtedly, the straw which breaks Mr Cain and Mr A. C. Teare then left the camel's back. ' Some of them have their seats. been coming here for 20 or 40 years. They see a lot of these amenities gone. The Governor: I will now put the first Let us save this railway which has such part of the resolution: "That the report an appeal to the visitor-480,000 people dated 6th November, 1956, of the com- use it in a year. I do hope that, taking mittee appointed by Tynwald on the 20th the long view, and ignoring these possi- June, 1956, to consider the further con- bilities of enormous expense in the tinuance of the Manx Electric Railway future, you will do that. You are asked be adopted." to vote for taking over the railway for The Court divided. 10 years. It will be up to the competent Board, in the light of experience, to de- The voting in the Keys was as fol- cide whether it will be worthwhile to lows :— continue the whole of the line—at a larger cost, it is true. I do appeal to For: Messrs Corkhill, Crowe, Rad- you to take the long view. It isn't a cliffe, Kerruish, Quine, Nivison, question of what the general effect will Nicholls, Quayle, Simcocks, McFee, be. First of all on your visiting indus- Kelly, Ca!lister, Taggart, Stephen, try, and secondly, the effect on unem- Kaneen, Irving, and Bolton-17. ployment. Isn't it better to spend Against: The Speaker, Messrs Corlett, £25,000 a year, than to spend £12,000 a Cannell, and Moore-4. year on giving people the dole? Isn't it better to spend it each year and so avoid The voting in the Council was five demands on increased transport, and votes in favour ahd two against, those whether you can find work, directly or voting against being Mr Crellin and Mr indirectly? This matter has been. very Higgins. definitely considered by the committee. The resolution was carried. We have even succeeded in getting the approval of the hon. member for West The Governor: I will now put the Douglas, who started in a different direc- second part of the resolution. "That tion. Even he has been obliged to ad- the Government Property Trustees be mit that it is within the hounds of possi- authorised to enter into an agreement bility. with the Manx Electric Railway, Ltd., upon the terms contained in Appendix Mr Farrant: Can I have the assurance D to the above-mentioned report." about the maintenance of the line from Laxey to Ramsey in the next 10 years? The resolution was carried. The Governor: The third part of the Deemster Cowley: There has been a resolution is "That a committee of Tyn- sum, something like £3,000 a year, spent on the point you raise for covering the wald be appointed to continue the nego- Laxey to Ramsey line for 10 years. And tiations with the directors of the Manx for the maintenance of the Snaefell Electric Railway Company, Ltd., on the we have allowed an additional £4,000 a lines indicated in the report, and to year, which is 240,000 for the next 10 recommend to Tynwald the organisation years. that should be set up to take over and operate the Manx Electric Railway." Mr Taggart: Has the resolution to be The Attorney-General: I was going to taken as a whole? move an amendment. The Governor: It is in three parts. I Deemster Cowley: The suggestion I will put it in three parts. was going to make was that the com- Mr Cain: In view of the position, I still mittee 'should be re-appointed. That the feel I have no pecuniary interest, al- committee set up should continue in though I will not vote. office. The company will be carrying on

Manx Electric Railway—Purchase by Tynwald. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956 189

as our agents, and it is essential we Mr Bolton : We have decided now that should have complete liaison with them we are going to acquire the Manx Elec- regarding expenditure. An offer may tric Railway, and the committee went arise to buy rails, and we might say, into the matter very fully before taking "Yes, you can buy them now." These any steps to deal with the management matters might arise. I ask that the of the railway, but it was impossible for committee be re-appointed. Later, it them to decide how it should be will be necessary to pass legislation. managed until Tynwald decided whether The Attorney-General has a draft Bill or not they would accept the resolution. and it would be helpful if the committee Now, this afternoon, just after we have could look at that Bill and make any decided to acquire it, we have been told suggestions. It might be helpful, as cer- we must "get cracking" by the Attorney- tain points would arise as to the forma- General, and I object to that. The com- tion of the Board, and its powers. It mittee has put forward a properly might well— worded resolution which, at the same time, reserves certain matters for fur- Mr Corlett: The present company will ther consideration. After all, every have to make purchases between now decision will have to be made by Tyn- and when we take over. wald, and Tynwald will have ample op- Deernster Cowley: The present com- portunity of considering the recom- pany has got to carry on as our agents mendations which are put before it. I until we take over, or it might possibly object to the Court being told that a be up to the end of September, 1957. Bill was prepared even before the During that period, all sorts or things Court said it would approve the may happen. Some act of God might resolution. The committee' has been happen. Some flood, which might en- dealing with the matter up to now, and tail expenditure. We will have the I think the committee should continue right as we are standing the racket to to deal with it— have a voice in anything of that nature. Supposing there might be a discussion The Speaker: May I suggest, Your Ex- on rails ordered, and not paid for. All cellency, that the present committee •these questions are questions of account, carry on for the time being. which might have to be considered. No Mr Higgins: I second that. policy will be decided until the Board is appointed. The Governor: You mean, Mr The Attorney-General: I would like, if Speaker, substitute the word "the" for I may, sir, to make a slight amendment "a," thus making it "The Committee" in the wording of the resolution. You instead of "a Committee?" will appreciate that we cannot operate The Speaker: Yes, sir. this railway unless we have constituted a Board with the requisite powers, and The amendment was carried. we will have to get on with the Bill as .quickly as possible. This Board ought to be in a position to take over before the summer season gets under way, and, BOARD OF AGRICULTURE— therefore, Your Excellency, I am sug- SURCHARGE ALLOWED . gesting a slight amendment to the resolu- tion whereby, instead of the words in the The Governor: I don't suppose the first line of the third part of the resolu- hon. members want to sit to-morrow, so tion, "that a committee of Tynwald be I think we had better press on with the appointed," to make it 'that a Board of agenda. I call upon the hon. member Tynwald be appointed." We have not for Ayre, Mr Cannell, to deal with No. got very much time to act. 9.

Board of Agriculture-Surcharge Allowed 100 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956

Mr Cannell: I beg to move the follow- RACES COMMITTEE ing resolution:— Attorney-General: I beg to move the That the sum of £45 3s Id surcharged by following resolution:— the Public Auditors in the accounts of the Whereas it is desirable to designate one Isle of Man Board of Agriculture and authority responsible to Tynwald for matters Fisheries for the year ended 31st March, 1956, affecting the Tourist Trophy Races, Manx be allowed. Grand Prix. the Manx International Bicycle Races, and road races of a similar character This money is required not for over- which may from time to time be organised spending or for a bank overdraft. It is in the Isle of Man. purely a difference of opinion between Resolved,—that the Isle of Man Tourist the auditors and my Board. It was in- Board be appointed the co-ordinating autho- curred for the crowning of the Herring rity for such purposes. Queen in Peel in 1952. The Peel Com- As far as this very important matter is missioners were allowed £45 3s 7d for concerned as members of the Court are publicity purposes in connection with aware a Committee of Tynwald was ap- that event and we thought it would be pointed for the purpose of looking after a good publicity stunt at the time be- the financial side of the T.T. races. That cause we wanted to stimulate interest was their only power. They were ap- in the Manx herring and in the Manx pointed to "vat" the growing expenditure kipper. This last year in Peel the of the Auto-Cycle Union in connection Queen was crowned by Mrs Bessie with these races. The next thing that Braddock, of Liverpool, and a great happened was that certain things arose number of visitors saw the ceremony— from time to time respecting policy, and I have heard the figure put as high as often ii was found they were opposed to 3.000. Now, sir I cannot agree with the the Race Committee, and so the com- auditors, but we must pay, and there- mittee's powe.rs were extended. They fore I ask that this surcharge be re- did an excellent job of work but, first of funded. all, they had no statutory powers and secondly the A.C.U. were in the unforT The resolution was agreed. tunate position of having to approach many Boards from London. They had to consult the Highway Board, and FORESTRY, MINES AND LANDS then the Tourist Board (because pub- BOARD—MR J. TURNER CHRYSTAL licity is a very important angle of the APPOINTED Laces), and also the Douglas Corpora- tion, and the situation became very in- The Governor: I have to announce volved. The Auto-Cycle Union had to that I have nominated Mr J. Turner do all of these things. In addition, too, Chrystal, D.F.C., J.P., to be a member we have to consider the Manx Grand of the Isle of Man Forestry Mines and Prix, and the bicycle events. At times Lands Board for the remainder of the misunderstandings occurred between term expiring 213th November, 1959, and these bodies and the Race Committee, call upon the Attorney-General. and it is now suggested that the Tourist The Attorney-General: I beg to move: Board which will have the requisite statutory powers, ought to deal with the His E.xcellency having announced that he has nominated Mr J. Turner Chrystal. D.F.C., race organisations. If the task is given. J.P.. to be a member of the Isle of Man to them I would recommend them (and Forestry. Mines and Lands Board for the re- I am sure they will do it) to appoint a mainder of the term expiring 26th Novem- sub-committee, which would be a Race ber. 1959.. Committee, of people vitally interested Resolved,--that the said nomination be in the races, and I suggest that this corn- • approved. mittee should comprise the chairman We all know Mr Chrystal, and I am sure and two representatives of the Tourist we are all very pleased that he is to join Board, two members of the Highway such an important Board. 3oard and two members of the Douglas The resolution was agreed. Corporation.

Yorestry,Mines and Lands Board—Mr J. Turner Chrystal Appointed.— Races Committee. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956 191

Mr Connell: Would they have statu- Mr Cannel!: Yes. tory powers? Mr Bolton: I will second that, and I The Attorney-General: Yes when the would like to suggest that the position Bill goes through. under the resolution would be that the Mr Bolton: Which Bill? Tourist Board could if they wished, appoint a sub-committee, but they need The Attorney-General: The Tourist Bill. It will give the Tourist Board the not necessarily appoint one, and I feel, express powers they need. But at pre- sir-- sent there is n.o one really with the ex- The Speaker: Do you think they would press powers necessary for co-ordina- refuse? tion. Mr Bolton: They may have the power Mr Bolton: No, perhaps they would to appoint a committee, but they may not refuse, but the power would rest not wish to appoint a committee, with them to do exactly as they liked, and I think Tynwald should be the body The Attorney-General: Well, they will to make decisions. The position now is have the statutory powers to organise this that it is proposed that the Tourist the races. There may be no obligation Board should be the body responsible on them to appoint a committee, but I for the races, and that, perhaps, at some am fully convinced they will do so, and, later date a Bill will be introduced so far as co-ordination is concerned, it which would give the Board power to is very irnportant they should do so. If appoint a sub-committee. you have representatives of the Tourist, and the Highway Boards on that com- The Attorney-General: They have the mittee, together with representatives power now. from the Douglas Corporation it will meant that the Auto-Cycle Union and Mr Taggart: They have no power to other race organisers will only have to spend money. deal with one body over here. There is Mr Bolton: The position as I see it is no doubt whatever that it is the only way that if we constitute the Tourist Board to deal with it and I am sure that the the authority, that Board may or may Tourist Board will do it because it is not appoint a committee consisting of re- commonsense; it would be a business- presentatives of various Boards, such as like arrangement and the committee the Highway Board and the Douglas would have the assistance of the per- Corporation. I feel, in matters of this manent members of the staff of the sort, that Tynwald should say how the Boards; in instance the Highway Board committee is to be constituted. representatives would have the assist- ance of the Surveyor-General and the rn The Speaker: It is not a question to secretary and so on. I think it is a step me, with this main resolution, that there in the right direction and I move the should be two members from the High- resolution. way Board, two from the Tourist Board, Mr Kaneen: I second that and one from the Corporation. Mr Cannell: I would like to propose Mr Cannell: That is the amendment. an amendment that a committee be ap- Mr Bolton: The main resolution calls pointed comprising two members of the for the Tourist Board to be appointed, Highway Board, two members of the and I am seconding the amendment. Tourist Board, and one member of the Douglas Corporation. The Governor: Instead of the Tourist Board. The Attorney-General: Your amend- ment, in fact, is to continue the Tynwald Mr Bolton: Yes, instead of the Tourist Court Committee, that it be recon- Board we should appoint a committee structed. constituted of the chairman from the

Races committee, 192 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956

Tourist Board, two members from the Mr Nivison: The races have to do with Tourist Board, two members from the the Highway Board. Their secretary, Highway Board and one from the Dou- along with the Surveyor-General, have glas Corporation. had a long and successful liaison with the Auto-Cycle Union, a similar liaison Mr Radcliffe: He did not say the chair- which they have with the Douglas Cor- man of the Tourist Board. poration on such things as race dates, Mr Bolton: I would not like to see the times of practising, closing of roads and committee with an even number. the like. The Governor: The resolution amend- The Attorney-General: They have ment was as follows:— separate consultation. The hon. member should know that. Whereds it is desirable to designate one authority responsible to Tynwald for matters Mr Nivison: If it is desired, Your affecting the Tourist Trophy Races, Manx Excellency, that it should be under the Grand Prix, the Manx International Cycle Races, and road races of a similar character control of the Tourist Board, the only which may from time to time be organised difference is that the most important in the Isle of Man. feature of the T.T. races is its publicity Resolved,—that a committee consisting of value. I will agree to the Tourist two members of the Highway Board, two Board. but if the races are to he success- members of the Tourist Board and a repre- sentative of the Douglas Corporation be fully conducted, it will mean that their appointed the co-ordinating authority for entire staff will have to be at their dis- such purpose. posal just as with the Highway Board, they are switched from other jobs on to Mr Bolton: I feel it is important, as such things as the closure of roads and the learned Attorney-General has stated, so on. that the Highway Board and the Tourist Board should be represented on any Mr Taggart: What about the Corpora- committee. I do not wish to make a tion staff? long speech, but I think there is a good case for the.amendment moved by the Mr Kaneen: Would it mean that the hon. member for Ayre. Highway Board would not co-operate? Mr Nivison: I take it that the meaning Mr Nivison: Not for one moment of the resolution is that in the past, the would I suggest that, but some of our fact that the committee has had to deal officials are going to be of more use to with certain boards relative to the suc- the A.C.U. than the Tourist Board. I cess of the races, and certain other personally think the races should be boards have been dealing with these under the control of the Board. There matters, that things should be in the is no question in my mind that the High- hands of the Tourist Board. I am going way Board officials are the people who to oppose the amendment, which is going know more about the T.T. races. to set up another committee. We have too many committees and I would like A Member: Question. to see them subsequently abolished. I Mr Nivison: I am speaking about the am going to move a further amendment. races, not its value. The Tourist Board have had nothing to do with the T.T. races to date, Mr Stephen: Their job is the closing A Member: It has. of the roads when they are asked to. Mr Nivison: It has had nothing to do Mr Nivison: Now the hon. member for with the Tourist Board. On the other South Douglas is showing his complete hand, it is the Highway and Transport ignorance. He says their job is to close Board which has dealt with the races. the roads when they are asked. If he were to see the enormous pile of com- Members: Oh! munications which pass between the

Races Committee. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956 193 board and other organisations, and if he every danger that it may not be held. I knew the enormous amount of time that think we are falling out with ourselves Mr Brown gives to the F.I.M. and the on little points of person'al"honourP1 The A.C.U. relative to the races, he would Tourist Board doesn't care "two hoots" realise that the races are in the Highway as long as there is a good show and there Board's officials' minds, and in their is something to advertise to the world, hearts. If you desire flippantly to throw another thing to the Tourist Board, and Mr Nicholls: As one who has been a there is that desire, do so by all means, member of the committee for many but if you want a successfully conducted years, and an active member, I think I race, then leave it to the Highway might be allowed to say a word on this Board. I move the amendment that the subject. My first reaction was that if handling of the races should be the it was to be resolved that the Tourist responsibility of the Highway and Board should run the races, that I would Transport Board. be opposed to it. I feel we have got into the way, as one hon. member has said, Mr McFee seconded. of getting into the happy way of throw- ing everything, however small, con- The Speaker: I can assure hon. mem- nected with the tourist industry, over to bers that the Tourist Board is not strain- the Tourist Board. I think we are doing ing at the leash to get hold of this work. the Board an injustice and the chairman The Highway Board has done their part in putting too great a burden on him. of the job with unique success for many No doubt Mr Speaker will say "this is years and the Isle of Man is deeply in- considerate of him." But I think the debted to them. Their job is to prepare Board are finding it difficult to get the roads for the races-- through the work which they have. Last Monday they had a meeting and spent a Mr Nivison: Plus. . full day and they continued the meet- ing this Monday to finish their agenda. The Speaker: Yes, and a lot more, but I think they are being overloaded with the Corporation has to prepare its part work. I am prepared to accept the of the road for the races. I should assurance of the chairman, that the think, personally, that the Tourist Board Board will be able to deal with it. It is is not dying to have its work increased. true to say of the Races Committee that A sub-committee of the Tourist Board, they have been obliged to take into their fathered by the Tourist Board, with the consideration work which was outside of Highway Board representatives and the their terms of reference, because there Corporation, would seem a desirable au- was no one else to do it. I raised the thority, and I would go further and have question on several occasions that the one representative from the motor- terms of reference should have been cycling fraternity of the Isle of Man. widened but there has been no one else There could be a chairman, from the to undertake this work. Our only Tourist Board, or nominated by His terms of reference were to deal with the Excellency. I think we ought to agree financial angle, but we were obliged to undertake other matters. I would be that it is extremely important to get on happy to agree to the resolution if I with things at once. It seems to me the were sure that the suggestion put for- vital question is whether there will be ward by Mr Speaker was put into effect, the proper T.T. faces or not, seeing that that there should be some active mem- the manufacturers have backed out or bers of the Isle of Man Centre of the have threatened to do so. It is important A.C.U. co-opted on to the committee. I that a committee be appointed at once think it is a belief I have put forward and the manufacturers should be ap- for many years that we are wasting a proached at once so that the idea of lot of talent in this respect. Everyone withdrawing works machines from the• knows what an active body the Manx races can be altered. It is our Golden Motor Cycle Club is, and they are whole- Jubilee race year next year, and without heartedly in the racing business. They the manufacturers' support there is give up a lot of their leisure time even

Races Committee. 1b4 TIATWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 195d to go across the water at their own ex- and Mr Dixon there. Something similar pense in connection with the organisa- has happened in the Broadcasting Com- tion of the IVIanx Grand Prix. The time mittee. There used to be a separate is going to come when the Manx Grand Broadcasting Committee, now it is the Prix is going to take the place of the Tourist Board. I think we should have T.T. Races and everything points in that something similar to deal with the races. direction. As Mr Speaker has said, the manufacturers are slowly pulling out of Mr Stephen,: Why should there be a racing business and we have reason change? The chairnian of the committee to feel concerned about the future. has suggested that if there is a change Whilst I was not happy about this, I it should be the Tourist Board. would be happier if I was assured that the committee would contain one or two The Governor: The present body has members of the Isle of Man Centre of no authority. the A.C.U. Mr Stephen: Has the present system The Speaker : Will you move that? failed so badly? The information I have, with the greatest respect to the The Governor: Which one are you Attorney-General, is that the people speaking about? Do you mean the concerned with these events are quite committee of the Tourist Board? satisfied with the operation of the M Nicholls: For the Tourist Board to former committee. . include them on their sub-committee. The Governor: Let me explain. The The Attorney-General: 'Ihe Speaker position is that we want to appoint a gave that assurance. committee and give them full authority. The Speaker: Are we restricted to The Attorney-General: To make it members? quite clear, we want a board respon- sible for the co-ordinating of these The Attorney-General: No. races, a board or a committee. They would be responsible in every respect Mr Cannell: Then have two from the for the running of the races. It is no Tourist Board, two from the Highway use closing our eyes to what has been Board, one from the Corporation and going on. There have been, differences one from the Isle of Man Centre of the between the Tynwald Committee and A.C.U. the Highway Board and also differences in other directions. Mr Alfred Teare: As the chairman of the Races Committee, I feel that, if there Mr Nicholls: I don't know what the' is to be any change at all that it should learned Attorney-General is referring be handed over to the Tourist Board and to. I know of no differences between not the Highway Board. The duties of the committee and the Highway Board. the Tynwald Races Committee in the past have been mostly to meet the The Attorney-General: Everybody A.C.U., to make charges and work out knows there has been. costs, and we have gone through the accounts. We have gone through them Mr Nicholls: Then why don't they say very carefully and then we have put what they are? them to His Excellency to secure the The Attorney-General: Differences money by means of a resolution. We about dates for one thing. have had to deal with all sorts of things which we were not entitled to do and I Mr Nicholls: That is quite wrong. think a responsible Board should deal The Tourist Board called a conference with it and that it should be similar to of interested people and it was decided what has been proposed to-day. We at that meeting by a majority vote. I have representatives of the Highway think, Mr Speaker, who presided, will Board, the Corporation, the Local Centre - bear me out in that. The dates were of the A.C.U. and we have Mr Huggett agreed on by a majority vote.

Races Committee. FritlWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1656 195

The. Governor : It has been suggested special duty. There is one other point, that the Tourist Board has no right to and I want to elaborate on this par- call a conference at all. I don't mind ticular point. If we have this special whether we have Mr Stephen's commit- committee which Mr Stephen, the hon. tee or Mr Cannell's committee. member for South Douglas .suggess, for goodness sake see that it will be an in- Mr Sephen: There have teen occa- dependent committee, The Douglas Cor- sions when it has been necessary- to get poration are involved with the Villa a very quick decision from the Tynwald Marina, and the cash side, with the Race Committee, and if you have a grandstand, then there is the A.C.U. and Board composed of interested parties I the Manx Grand Prix should not be en- think it will be difficult to get a quick titled to have a member either. decision. The Highway Board people will say, "I have to ask my Board." I The Attorney-General: Wouldn't the am going to move a further amendment, Tourist Board have a member either? "Resolved that a special committee of Mr Kelly: The Court will select people Tynwald consisting of five members be from this Court. I think we will be appointed as a co-ordinating authority making a very big mistake if we throw for such purposes" and with such extra this overboard. words as may be necessary to give this committee full authority to make ar- Mr Bolton: If I might speak for a- rangements • for the T. T. Races and moment on this amendment. One of the other events. - matters raised, particularly by the hon. member for Ramsey, was that we should Mr Kelly: I have great pleasure in have a legally trained person such as seconding that for this reason. I have cannot be supplied by a Board of Tyn- been a member of the committee for wald, and if the running of the races is some years and I have been a member done by the Highway Board or the Tour- of the Tourist Board for ten years, and ist Board possibly the secretary of one there is no comparison at all between of the Boards would be secretary of the the work done by the committee and committee and we would have him the work done by the Tourist Board, always at hand. It must be Understood and I am wholly opposed to the reso- that the Clerk of Tynwald is a part- lution. For one thing the committee time servant with no staff under him have a trained legal mind who can do to deal with matters. There is no this particular work much better than question of any disagreement between , an ordinary layman could do. The them. It is necessary for a Board staff Committee are very fortunate to have a to be available and I .think we should legal gentleman like Mr Johnson to help decide that either the secretary of the them in their work. I cannot recall Tourist Board or the secretary of the in my experience as a member of the Highway Board should be the secreta-ry committee any of the misunderstand- of the Committee. ings referred to. I do know this, there The Governor: Before any other hon. has been an undercurrent trying to get members speak I think I might reiterate rid of this Tynwald Race Committee. what the proposals are. That the co- .1 don't know how it started or anything ordinating committee should be the about it, but we have spent many hours Tourist Board stated in the resolution, discussing the different races and events. that it should be the Tourist Board or It could be the "pukka" T.T. or the the Highway Board as suggested by .Southern "100," the ordinary cycle races Mr Cannell, or that five members of or the Manx Grand Prix, and everything Tynwald should be appointed. has been fully covered, as the chairman has said, in a very, very efficient way, Mr Kerruish: I feel we owe a debt to and yet we are told that the Tourist this Tynwald Race Committee, which has Board should take upon itself this very done very good work, but I feel that the

Knee Committee. 196 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956 time has arrived when the promotion of Mr R. C. Carmen: As chairman of these events should be vested in a more the Board of Agriculture, I object to the responsible authority. I believe the hon. member's remark. He knows as Tourist Board.should be responsible for well as I do that when we sit there is what, after all, is the Tourist Trophy no co-ordination in our Board. (Laugh- Race. As the hon. member for Middle ter.) No.matter what their representa- has said, the Tourist Board has played tives say, the Board can repudiate it. its part in putting on other events and It is all very difficult. Even what the has put in a great deal of work preparing chairman says can be repudiated by the for the races. It is a question of if the Board. How can you overcome that? Highway Board can't have the respon- You might think that I am riding my sibility nobody else will." That is the favourite hobby-horse with this sort of position we are in to-day, and that is the thing, but I think it is time we tried to point of view of the chairman of the iron it out, and it is up to this Court to Highway Board. make a co-ordinate effort. Mr Bolton: Oh, no. Mr Stephen: Struggling for power. Mr Taggart: Struggling for power. Mr Kerruish: I think the Court would Let us go to the Tourist Board and let do well to support the resolution as us see what a job they make of it. printed, and I would not adhere too closely to the Attorney-General's recom- Mr Corlett: In answer to the hon. mendation with regard to the committee, member the resolution on the agenda but leave It open to the Tourist Board comes from the Executive Council, who to appoint that committee on the broader suggest that it should be handed lines indicated by the chairman. I think over to one Board, and they suggest people who have a special interest should it should be the Tourist Board. be co-opted on the committee and get Mr Irving: I support the hon. member them to get down to brass tacks. for Garff, Mr Kerruish, in this resolu- tion. I can quite see that every mem- Mr W. E. Quayle: I would support ber of the Court feels that the Tourist the •Tourist Board, but what assurance Board should be responsible for the de- can we have that the 1957 races will velopment and advertising of the tour- be held? ist industry. Now I am rather surprised The Attorney-General: How can we to find the chairman of the Tourist tell any more than the Chancellor can? Board saying that we don't care two hoots whether we get it or not. That Mr Quayle : I was going to suggest to may be the view of the Board but it is the Court that if it takes 10,000 gallons not mine. I personally, unlike the to run the races we should have a pool Speaker, am straining at the leash to and let people give a gallon of their get on with some of these matters, and ration. if the Tourist Board feels that some- The Attorney-General: That has not thing should be done for the tourist in- been overlooked. dustry we should get on with the job. lithe Tourist Board are given this duty Mr Quayle: I am glad to have that I think we should have the widest assurance. possible representation on this commit- Mr Taggart; I think the co-ordinating tee. I hope that the Court will now authority should be the Tourist Board. decide that these races are definitely a I deplore this sort of thing. We had source of attraction for the visitors and an example yesterday where the Local that the proper Board to be in charge Government Board, after getting leave of this duty is the Tourist Board. to proceed with the abattoir proposal The Governor: I had better make it were knocked over by the Board of Agri- clear what the voting will be on. The culture acting in unison. first suggestion is that instead of the

Races Committee. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 12, 1956 197

Tourist Board there should be appointed Agreed. a committee consisting of two members from the Highway Board, two from the Mr Cannell: I beg to move:— Tourist Board and one from Douglas That, in view of the fact that a scheme for Corporation. The second amendment, marketing of milk on the lines of the scheme operated by the Milk Marketing Board for proposed by Mr Cannell, is that the England and Wales has now been presented' Highway Board should be substituted to the Board, this Court approves the pay- for the Tourist Board in the resolution, ment of a sum not exceeding £5,000 by way and the third is that instead of the of guarantee of producer prices for the period January 1st to March 31st. 1957, subject to the Tourist Board there should be appointed approval of 1-lis Excellency the Lieutenant- a special committee consisting of five Governor and the Board to the scheme in members of Tynwald. I will now take question. the voting on the first amendment—that instead of the Tourist Board there I would also like the following words should be a committee consisting of two added to the resolution: "To be applied members from the Highway Board, two from the current revenue of the Isle of from the Tourist Board and one from Man for the year ending 31st March, Douglas Corporation. 1957." I would like those words added, The amendment was lost. Your Excellency, as they help to state the resolution in a better way, The Governor: I will now take the second amendment—that the Highway Mr Kerruish: I am sorry, Your Ex- Board should be sustituted for the cellency, but I would like some informa- Tourist Board. tion on this point. From the resolution The amendment was lost. I gather that a new scheme will be intro- duced. I would like the chairman to in- The Governor: I will now take the form the Court whether it is the Peacock third amendment—that instead of the Scheme which we are told is being con- Tourist Board there should be appointed sidered. If not, what does it offer and a special committee of five members of what do the guarantees offer? Tynwald. Mr Cannell: The guarantees have yet The amendment was lost. to be debated. Mr Jones is coming over The Governor: I will now put the re- again from the Milk Marketing Board solution as it appears on the agenda— and the Marketing Society will then go Whereas it is desirable to designate one into the matter with the Board. The authority responsible to Tynwald for matters scheme is similar to that operating in affecting the Tourist Trophy Race's. Manx Grand Prix. the Manx International Cycle England and Wales, but for the time Races and road races of a similar character being there is no inquiry to take over which may from time to time be organised the Isle of Man Dairies, but the Milk in the Isle of Man. Executive will arrange to buy and Resolved.—that the Isle of Man Tourist sell milk. The guarantees will operate Board be appointed to co-ordinating authority as in England. There it has been for such purpose. agreed that the British Government The resolution was carried. in the February review of 1956 guaranteed 38.5 d per gallon for milk which was fixed at 1,650,000,000 PAYMENT OF £5,000 GUARANTEE gallons. It has been agreed subject to OF MILK PRODUCER PRICES the approval of Your Excellency and the Board that the amount of milk for the The Governor: Now, the first supple- first year of operation here will be mentary agenda that was circulated on 1,700.000 gallons and if we see that that Tuesday. I call on the chairman of the amount is not satisfactory it will come Board of Agriculture. up for review afterwards. In any Mr Cannel!: I beg to move:— scheme there are bound to be initial That Standing Orders be suspended to en- difficulties and if the figure 1,700,000 able the item on this agenda to be taken. gallons is proved on experience to be an

payment of £5,000 Guarantee of Milk Producer Prices, 198 HOUSE OF KEYS, DECEMBER 12, 1958

incorrect estimate then an adjustment I attended a meeting of the unemployed can be made. I hope that will satisfy the recently and I promised that I would ask hon. member. in Tynwald when work would be started on the Marine Drive scheme. The Governor: He is not listening. The Governor: It is under considera- " The resolution was, agreed. tion by the Local Government Board at present and then the matter will come before Tynwald. That is the big scheme. That concludes the business before the THE MARINE DRIVE—INQUIRY BY Court. The Council will now retire, and MR EDWARD CALLISTER the Keys will remain to transact such Mr Edward Callister: If you have no business as remains before them. further business, Your Excellency, may The Council retired, and the Court I crave your indulgence for a moment. rose.

HOUSE OF KEYS

Douglas, Wednesday, December 12, 1956

The Speaker: The House will now stand adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tues- day, January 15th. I have very great pleasure in wishing all members a very happy Christmas. The House adjourned to Tuesday, January 15th, at 11 a.m.

The Marine Drive—Inquiry by Mr Edward Canister,