284 COURT, DECEMBER 10. 1963 secretary will give you a copy, arid I NOTICE OF LEAVE TO INTRODUCE will then ask your sponsors to conduct BILLS you to your seat. Sir Henry Sugden: May I give notice of my intention to ask leave to intro- duce a Civil Registration and Dis- Mr Radcliffe signed Standing Orders senters Marriage Bill? book and received a copy of the Stand- Mr Quayle: I beg to give notice of nay ing Orders. intention to ask leave to introduce a Marine Drive Bill. The sponsors then conducted him to The House adjourned to a sitting of his seat. Tynwald being held the same day.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, December 10, 1963.

Present: The Governor (Sir Ronald R. C. Stephen, P. Coupe, G. V. H. Garvey, K.C.M.G., .K.C.V.O., M.B.E.). Kneale and J. M. Cain,, OBE., with In the Council: The Lord Bishop (Rt. Mr F. B. Johnson, MA., Secretary to Rev. Benjamin Pollard, T.D., D.D., the House. MSc.), Deemster S. J. Kneale, C.B.E., Deemster G. E. Moore, the Attorney- General (Mr D. D. Lay), Sir Ralph INDISPOSITION OF THE SPEAKER Stevenson, G.C.M.G., Messrs J. B. The Governor: Gentlemen, I have Bolton, E. B. C. Farrant, M.B.E., J. C. received apologies from Mr Speaker. Nivison, C. C. McFee and H. H. Rad- He regrets that due to the continuation cliffe, with Mr E. R. St. A. Davies, of his indisposition, he is unable to be M.B.E., Government Secretary and with us during our deliberations to-day. Clerk to the Council. (Mr A. Quil- He hopes to be back on duty within the leash, Acting-Clerk to the Council.). next 10 days. I have also received In the Keys: The Acting-Speaker (Mr apologies from Mr Kaneen, who is un- A. S. Kelly), Messrs T. F. Corkhill, avoidably detained. , H. D. C. Macleod, T. H. Colebourn, E. N. Crowe,. P. Radcliffe, E. Kerruish, E. Moore, W. E. Quayle. J. R. Creer. SYMPATHY EXTENDED TO FAMILY - H. S. Cain, A. H. Simcocks, C. H. Mat- OF THE LATE MR J. J. McARD thews, T. A. Coole. G. C. Gale, Sir The Governor: Hon. members of the Henry Sugden, K.B.E. C.B.. D.S.O., Court will have learned with regret of Messrs J. E. .Callister, T. A. Corkish, the death of Mr J. J. McArd, who was

Notice of Leave to Introduce Bills.—Indisposition of The Speaker.—Sympathy Extended to family of the late Mr J. J. McArd. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 285 a member of the for the future of the Jurby R.A.F. camp Rushen sheading from 1936 to 1946 and site. The site if abandoned by the served in this Court so well, particu- R.A.F., presents both a probable asset larly during the war years. I under- as well as a possible liability to the stand his demeanour and business Island. It might rapidly become a acumen were two of the many assets derelict eyesore, quite out of keeping which made him a valuable member of with a holiday Island on the other the Court. I know you would wish me to express sympathy with his family hand it might serve as an industrial on behalf of the Court, together with complex or a holiday camp site, And the House of Keys. the airfield is of importance to us as a diversionary airstrip if weather condi- tions put Ronaldsway out of use. Government has therefore been WELCOME TO NEW MEMBER FOR negotiating for the purchase of the AYRE whole site with a view to bringing a resolution, in due course, to Tynwald The Governor: Now may I, gentle- to enable the purchase to be made. men, before I begin our proceedings. The negotiations, however, have been welcome on your behalf the new mem- complicated by the continued use of the ber for Ayre, Mr Percy Radcliffe, to R.A.F. bombing range off the coast at Tynwald. I am sure we will benefit Jurby, which the Air Ministry origin- from the experience and wisdom which ally held would necessitate their he will bring to the deliberations in continuing to occupy a number of build- this Court. ings in the heart of the station, includ- Mr P. Radcliffe: Thank you, Your ing all the officers' married quarters, Excellency. their mess and the open ground be- tween them. As a result of our many representations and our discussions last week in London, the Air Ministry GOVERNOR REPORTS ON VISIT TO have agreed to evacuate Jurby and to LONDON WITH MEMBERS OF THE make the whole station available for the EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Government to purchase at a price to be negotiated. The knock-down price The Governor: At the conclusion of is currently given as £130.000 and I our proceedings the hon. and gallant propose that we negotiate from that member for Ramsey, Sir Henry Sugden, figure. They have also agreed to cease will be addressing us on. the proceedings all live bombing on the range, to dis- of the Commonwealth Parliamentary continue the dropping of photo flashes Association conference in Malaysia. I during the season and to re-route the now want to address the Court on our paths of bombing aircraft,. to create recent visit to London. As hon. mem- less disturbance in the area than at bers will know, a deputation of mem- present. Indeed 'the wild'e emphasis bers of Executive Council, led by my- will be on simulated bombing. Person- self, together with official advisers, nel will be reduced to about 25, of whom spent three useful days last week in only half would be servicemen. None London in various discussions. The will be resident in the present station most important of these took place in site. Marine craft staff will mainly be the Home Office when our delegation civilians and the repair of the craft will met the Home Secretary and no fewer be put in the hands of local marine than seven other members of Her engineers. The continued use of the Majesty's Government and discussed range on this restricted basis will be a number of our outstanding problems reviewed in two or three years' time. with them. The first of these concerned It is apposite if I mention here that it

Welcome to New Member for Ayre. — Governor Reports on Visit to London with Members of the Executive Council. 286 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 is proposed shortly to ask the Court for Common Purse should be undertaken agreement to the sale of the farms at by experts from both sides as soon as present held, by the Government Pro- the actual figures of the decennial test perty Trustees which constituted the were available. Meanwhile, I am glad former Andreas Aerodrome. The rights to report that the provisional results of of sitting tenants will, of course, be the decennial test show that the Island protected. The sale price is expected Government is due to receive an addi- to make a substantial contribution to- tional sum in respect of the three years wards the cost of acquiring Jurby. 1961 and 1962 and 1963 which will just Agricultural matters which came up reach six figures: As hon. members for discussion included the possible may have already seen in the Press, at repercussions on the Island of •H.M. our request and with some assistance Government's new policy of limiting from members of the Court, the Post- their liabilities for agricultural subsi- master-General has agreed to the issue dies either by introdubing standard of an Island 2id stamp of the same size and style as the present 3d Island quantities of certain products which stamp. The design, however, has still would form the basis for the computa- to be discussed and agreed by ourselves tion of the amount of subsidy payable and the British Post Office. Hon. mem- on that product by the Government or bers will also have seen the Press com- of imposing import levies on certain munique about Radio Manx, which products imported at less than a deter- resulted from our very useful conversa- mined price. We were assured that tions with a senior representative of this policy would not be administered Messrs Pye (Cambridge) Ltd. 'Draft to our disadvantage. We failed, how- legislation will •be laid before the ever, to get any satisfaction as regards branches at an early date to control the possible reimbursement by the broadcasting activities in the Island and United Kingdom Government of fat- I hope that it will be possible to have stock subsidies paid to our producers this legislation in the Statute Book by by this Government for animals ex- April, 1964. Hon, members and our ported to and consumed in the United own exporters will be pleased to learn Kingdom. This has been a long-stand- that a Bill has now been introduced ing argument and I am afraid we must into the United Kingdom Parliament to now regard the battle as lost. Financial amend United Kingdom Export Guaran- subjects raised included the difficulties tees Acts, 1949-61, and to apply them experienced here when the Chancellor to the . This comes about of the Exchequer, in the course of the as a result of pressure exerted by this financial year, alters the rates of taxa- Government over a period of eight tion which are also applicable in the years. Concluding my remarks on this Island, or makes other changes which section of my address, may I add that affect our budget. These and the possi- we were very hospitably received by bility of this Government obtaining a the Home Secretary who entertained share of the revenue derived in the us to luncheon at Lancaster House on United Kingdom from the tax impoSed behalf of I-TM, Government. Whilst on certain television programme com- our discussions were conducted in an panies will also be further examined by amicable atmosphere, there was no lack ourselves and H.M. Government. Com- of hard bargaining on both sides. Mr mon Purse arrangements were also Brooke asked me, iarticularly, to let considered. The detailed application you all know how greatly he enjoyed of purchase tax to a wider range of his first visit to the Island in September specific articles is already being last. He also requested me to make it examined and it was agreed that a clear to Tynwald that he would have general review of the working of the been very happy to arrange for these

Governor Reports on Visit to London with Members of the Executive Council. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 287 talks to have taken place in the Island Shop Hours Acts (Town of Ramsey but that—with the attendance of other Funfairs) Order, 1963. Ministers of the Crown—this was not Public Analysts Qualifications Regu- practicable because of the pressure on lations, 1964. their time. Turning to more general matters — I have, from time to time, Agricultural Produce (Grading and informed the Court of the changes Marking) (Honey) Regulations, 1963. which have taken place in the law Parrots (Prohibition of Importation) relating to British nationality as the Regulations, 1963. result of the attainment of independence by countries which had hitherto not Civil Service Establishment. possessed full responsible status with- Report of the Employment Advisory in the Commonwealth. To-day Zanzi- Committee for the year ended 31st bar ceases to be a Protectorate and March, 1963. becomes an Independent State within Annual Report and Statement of the Commonwealth and on the 1st Accounts of the Isle of Man Assessment October last,. Nigeria became a Republic Board for the 'year ended 31st March, within the Commonwealth. Bills to 1963, and the Auditors' Report. make provision for the operation of the British Nationality Acts, 1948 and 1958, Approval, dated, 15th November, 1963, and other statutes applicable to the to the following petitions— Isle of Man have been introduced into (1) Petition of the Laxey Village the United Kingdom Parliament. They Commissioners for authority to borrow propose to apply to the Isle of Man as a sum not exceeding £1,200, at a rate well as to the United Kingdom the of interest not exceeding £5 per centum relevant sections in each measure which per annum, repayable within 20 years, relate to the operation of the existing to defray the petitioners' proportion of law. I have also received a copy of the the further cost of carrying out develop- Kenya Independence Bill whereby ment schemes in Glen Road, Laxey, in- similar changes in the law on British cluding the removal of part of the nationality will become operative with brows. the attainment by Kenya of full re- (2) Petition of the Peel Town Com- sponsible status. As hon. members are missioners for authority to borrow a no doubt aware, Kenya celebrates its sum not exceeding £3,500, at a rate of independence on the 12th December. interest not exceeding £5 per centum Well now, gentlemen, we will proceed per annum, repayble within 50 years, to to the agenda paper before us. defray the cost of extending the Peel Town sewer along Ramsey Road for a distance of approximately 750 feet BILL FOR SIGNATURE (work to be carried out by direct labour). The Aircraft (Wreck and Salvage) (3) Petition of the Peel Town Com- Bill was signed. missioners for authority to borrow a sum not exceeding £3,750, at a rate of interest not exceeding £5 per centum PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT per annum, repayable within 50 years, to defray the cost of extending the Peel The following papers were then laid Town sewer along the Poortown Road before the Court:- for a distance of approximately 1,200 Anti-Dumping Duty (Isle of Man) feet (work to be carried out by direct Order, 1963 (Revocation) Order, 1963. labour). (Government Circular No. 101/63.) (4) Petition of the Peel Town Corn- Witnesses' Allowances Order, 1963. rnissioners for authority to borrow a

Bill for Signature.—Papers Laid Before the Court. 2813 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1963 sum not exceeding £1,900, at a rate of The Governor: As the hon. member interest not exceeding £5 per centum is aware,. moneys for employment are per annum, repayable within 30 years, made from a Winter Works Employ- to defray the cost of the purchase of a ment Vote and are in no way connected store shed, approximately 90 feet by 24 until moneys which have been excised feet, from Quiggin & Company Limited. from Boards' votes to enable the and its erection on a plot of land in Budget for 1963-64 to be balanced.. The Mill Road. Peel, owned by the peti- moneys voted by Tynwald for winter tioners. works have now all been allocated and (5) Petition of the Peel Town Com- it is therefore not possible to allocate missioners for approval of an agree- the moneys suggested by the hon. ment, dated 30th October, 1963, for the member for winter works in the Ram- purchase from George Henry Watter- sey area. It is, of course, because son Moore, for the sum of £1,000, of a Government is aware of the position parcel of land, situated abutting on in this area that it is pressing ahead as Derby Road, Peel, containing approxi- fast as possible with the development mately 4i acres, for use as a camping scheme for South Ramsey. site and as public recreation ground for children, and for authority to borrow Sir Henry Sugden: Thank you, Your a sum not exceeding £1,100, at a rate Excellency. I wonder if I may ask a of interest not exceeding £5 per centum supplementary question? As outlined per annum, repayable within 50 years, in the statement of the chairman of the to enable the petitioners to complete Board of Social Services, various pro- the purchase of the said land. jects are enumerated which it was thought would give work during the winter. You have mentioned the South Ramsey project. Can Your Excellency WORK FOR UNEMPLOYED — QUES- say when work on this will start? Will TION BY SIR HENRY SUGDEN it be this winter? Later on in our The Governor: That brings us to the agenda another subject we will be dis- question paper, gentlemen. Question 1. cussing will be the improvements at I call on the hon. and gallant member the Ramsey Cottage Hospital. Can Your for Ramsey, Sir Henry Sugden. Excellency give any indication whether work on this will start this winter and Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, whether or not any of the present un- I beg to ask the question standing in employed will be absorbed by the work my name:— In view of the number of involved considering that the building unemployed men registered at Ramsey industry is fully employed at the —the number on 2nd December, 1963, moment? Finally, Your Excellency, was 95, including 38 directly attribut- with regard to these road schemes, it able to the closing of R.A.F. Jufby- does seem to me — and I hope Your will Your Excellency restore the cuts Excellency will agree with me — that made in the Highway Board estimates this is a way of giving the immediate for work to be carried out on roads in relief which is needed by the un- the north of the Island during the employed in the north. Will Your winter, in particular—£9,800 for .work Excellency give consideration to giving in the Bride area, which would employ relief in this matter? approximately 32 men for 16 weeks; £2,200 for work on footpaths in Lez- Mr Canister; May I ask a supple- ayre, which would employ approxi- mentary question that in view of the mately eight men for 16 weeks; and distress resulting from unemployment, £2,000 for work on the Mountain Road, will Your Excellency please implement near Ramsey, which would employ what winter work schemes you have on approximately seven men for 16 weeks? hand so that men can be employed in

Work for Unemployed.—Question by Sir Henry Sugden. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 289 view of the distress which will come those men on the special register in about at a time when people will hardly the Ramsey area. Further to that, have enough to see thorn through the regarding men paid off at Jurby, how coming weeks? many registered for employment and how many are at present available for The Governor: As regards the horn development work and how many on and gallant member for Ramsey, Sir the special register? Henry Sugden, as to how soon will the South Ramsey development scheme be The Governor: In reply to that, 47 started, I am sorry that 1 cannot give a Ramsey men were discharged from the forecast. I do know, however, that R.A.F. Station at Jurby and, of those, there are certain preliminary road 35 men registered. On 4th December, works involved and it is my hope that 54 men were on the general register the preliminary work will start fairly and 51 Ramsey men on the special soon. As regards the hospital, I would register, which makes a total of 105. like to call on the deputy-chairman of Of this total of 105, 21 on the general the Health Services Board to give in- register and five on the special register formation on that point. were from Jurby. No more than that. Does that cover your point? Mr Kelly: I did intend to refer to this matter in regard to the extensions Mr H. H. Radcliffe: Thank you very coming later on the agenda. May I much. say at once that the foundations can Mr Bolton: I know this may not be proceed in the New Year for the Ram- a supplementary question but in view sey Cottage Hospital but that specifica- of the reference made to the items tion has to go out to tender and that excised from Board estimates at the is all I can say at the moment. time of the Budget, would Your Excel- Mr H. H. Radcliffe: Might I ask a lency be prepared to make arrange- supplementary question? ments for the Finance Board to excise items they think unacceptable for The Governor: I would rather like to execution during the year before the answer the questions on my desk. With estimates are presented and approved regard to the third question asked by by Tynwald, so that there can be no Sir Henry Sugden. he has asked me to argument over the reasons for this express an opinion in regard to ques- excision? tions I have already answered and therefore I cannot reply to him. With The Governor: I am prepared to give regard to the hon. member for North that consideration. Douglas, winter schemes have been implemented. That is that winter schemes for which money is available are being implemented and it is the USE OF CRONK RUAGH SANA- lack of money and not lack of schemes TORIUM — QUESTION BY SIR which has brought this about. HENRY SUG.DEN Mr Canister: Could you not provide The Governor: Question No. 2. I the money, Your Excellency? call on the horn and gallant member for Ramsey. The Governor: I could ask the Sir Henry Sugden: I beg to ask the Finance Board to consider the matter. following questions in my name:— Mr H. H. Radcliffe: Gould I ask a (I) Is it still the intention of the Health supplementary question, Your Excel- Services Board to make use of the lency? I wonder if you have the former sanatorium at Cronk Ruagh for figures of the number of men available the care of elderly people? (2) If so, for work on development schemes and when will the building be occupied for

Use of Crank Ruagh Sanatorium—Question by Sir Henry Sugden. ZOO TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10. 1963 the purpose? (3) If it is no longer it, and we are awaiting a reply from proposed to use this building for this the Board of Social Services and we purpose as indicated recently, can the will give it our earnest consideration. chairman state what use will eventu- Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, I should ally be made of the building? like to ask a supplementary question'in the way of clearing up a point. Would Mr Kelly: Your Excellency, in reply- the vice-chairman of the Board inform ing to the hon, member's questions I the Court when the meeting took place have to make it clear at the outset that with the Board of Social Services lest the functions of the Health Services it should be thought that the Board of Board relate to sick persons, patients, Social Services have been sitting on whether elderly or otherwise. It thus this for a long time? Some of the folows that the Board provides hospital Board of Social Services did not know accommodation for people who need about this meeting but will the vice- the services and treatment obtainable chairman agree it took place just a in hospital. If the hon. member had in fortnight ago? mind elderly people in need of care and Mr Kelly: That is perfectly correct. attention, but not hospital services, he It only took place a matter of days ago. will appreciate that they do not fall within the scope of the Health Services Board. At the invitation of the Board, of Social Services, who recognise the FIXED PRICE ORDER FOR MANX- need for accommodation for elderly BRED TURKEYS AND POULTRY— people in need of care and attention. QUESTIONS BY MR COLEBOURN the Health Services Board recently discussed the matter with that Board. • The Governor: Question No. 3. I Arising from the discussion, the Board call on the hon. member for Castletown. of Social Services are at present con- Mr Colebourn: I beg to ask the chair- sidering the possibility of using Crank man of the Board of Agriculture and Ruagh fon elderly people requiring Fisheries the questions standing in my care and attention. The date on which name:— (I) Why does the fixed price the Crank Ruagh will be occupied order for Manx-bred Christmas poultry again cannot at present be stated, as and turkeys make no provision for the Health Services Board are awaiting difference in value between high grades a communication from the Board of and low grades? (2) Why should a low Social Services when that Board has grade Manx turkey fetch the equivalent completed its consideration of the price to one of high grade under this matter. If the Board of Social Services order? (3) How is Manx turkey find that they are able to arrange for identified when offered for sale? accommodation for elderly people in need of care and attention without Mr H. H. Radcliffe; In reply to the using Cronk Ruagh for that purpose, first question, Your Excellency, Manx the Health Services Board envisage Christmas poultry, including turkeys, employing the building for hospital are fed and raised especially for the purposes, which in their view may be festive season and very few, if any, low usefully related to elderly sick patients. grade birds are offered. In reply to I might say that we all heard the under- the second question, the answer is that taking given by the Speaker, the chair- there being very few, if any, law grade man of the Health Services Board, some Manx turkeys on offer, any difference months ago in regard to the use of the in weight does not affect the grade or Cronk Ruagh buildings, that we will quality. Retailers who have the in- tell the Boards at the earliest oppor- terests of their customers and the tunity of what we shall be doing with prosperity of their buSiness in mind

Fixed Price Order for Manx-bred Turkeys and Poultry—Questions by Mr Colebourn. TyNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 291 generally would refuse any low grade the hon. member. I think the hon. bird offered. Poultry producers who member is aware that with these tur- deal direct with consumers present only keys it is traditional for Manx farmers, their best. The consumer need not wives and friends to raise turkeys for accept any inferior article from either the Manx market and, generally speak- retailer or producer-retailer, if such ing, it is well-known by those who .should be offered. The answer to ques- purchase them or sell them and deal in tion (3) is that the retailer knows the them which are Manx. The presenting origin of the poultry he buys and would of these turkeys for the Christmas not attempt to supply a customer with trade is a specialist job and the birds an imported turkey if a request is are sold and accepted in good faith by made for a Manx turkey. The same both sides. He asked was I aware that thing applies to other goods and toma- oven-ready fresh turkeys were selling toes can be quoted as an example. in London at 4s a lb. I am sorry I Positive identification of origin can be have no personal knowledge but the difficult to establish and the matter Board were' advised as to what was the becomes one of the integrity of the accepted 'general trend of the market trader. Further, in ordinary circum- and his question therefore is answered stances, fresh-killed birds are Manx by saying that the price was between while imported are frozen. 4s Gd and 6s a lb., the same as last year. On the first question, I did not quite Mr Colebourn: Could I ask a sup- get it—was I aware there was no such plementary question, Your Excellency? thing as a standard bullock and no The Governor: Providing it relates to standard turkey. I do not see how to the original questions. answer that one. We know there are castrated bulls and various crosses and Mr Colebourn: Is the chairman aware I am fully aware of the crosses and that there is no such thing as a standard standards and special beasts for suit- bullock? (Laughter.) And not only able trades. I hope the hon. member are there oven-ready fresh turkeys of does not wish me to discourse at length. different sizes, brands and prices com- So what is the purpose of the question? ing to the Island but they can be bought at different prices, and' is the chairman Mr Colebourn: In reply to your reply of the Board aware that oven-ready to the original question, you referred freshly-killed English turkeys are being to Manx turkeys as if they were sold in London at 4s a lb., and, finally, standard. There are dozens of different what residential qualifications has a breeds and brands and qualities. turkey to have to be regarded as Manx? Mr H. H. Radcliffe: I am aware that (Laughter.) there are different types of turkeys and we were referring to all those raised Mr Nivison: Five years! on Manx farms. They know what is Mr Callister: May I ask a supple- required by the consumer and the pro- mentary question? What steps are the ducers endeavour to meet the demand. Board of Agriculture taking to reduce -11 Mr Callister: May I ask as a sup- the price? plementary question in view of the Mr H. H. Radcliffe: I have not written production of turkeys in the United all Mr Colebourn's question down and Kingdom and elsewhere throughout' the I am a bit confused but in regard to whole year and the Isle of Man only for the third question regarding the resi- Xmas, what steps the Board is taking to dential qualification, I might point: out develop the production and processing that in 1962 there were 4,359 turkeys on and freezing of turkeys to produce Manx farms while this year the total them on a proper standard as men- is 3,733. I am speaking seriously to tioned by Mr Colebourn?

Fixed Price Order for Manx-bred Turkeys and Poultry—Questions by Mr Colebourn. 292 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1963

Mr H. H. Radcliffe: The Board is shall provide. The Board has so pro- aware that there is all-the-year-round vided by Regulation 23 (3) of the turkey production in England and the Casino Regulations, 1962, it being em- Board is willing to help in its develop- powered by section 24 (1) of the Act ment in the Isle of Man. A similar to do so. Matter was raised in the Executive Council with regard to broiler chickens Mr Kneale: May I ask a supple- but it is up to the producers to bring mentary question on this? Is Your forward their plans. Excellency aware that sub-section (5) of section 16 of the original Bill con- Sir Henry Sugden: The chairman of tained the words "the grass product" the Board stated that they had been but that this was altered on the 13th informed that the price of turkeys in March, 1963, by an amendment moved England this year would be the same by Deemster Kneale and seconded by as last year. Would he explain, there- the Attorney-General and approved by fore, why the price in the Isle of Man Legislative Council to "the gross daily this year is 2d a lb. higher than last receipts" to clarify the position, and, is year? Your Excellency also aware that the Mr H. H. Radcliffe: I think Sir Henry dictionary definition of receipts is has been misinformed. The price in "money taken in" and the definition of the island is the same as last year. gross is "whole, entire or total"? This being so, how can the expression "gross daily receipts" be construed as meaning net receipts as stated by the THE CASINO—QUESTIONS BY chairman of the Finance Board in his MR KNEALE written answer to Tynwald on 21st November, 1963? Can Your Excellency The Governor: Question 4. I call on tell the Court whether the Casino the hon. member for West Douglas, Mr Ragulations,. 1962, take preference over Kneale. the Gaming. Betting and Lotteries (Casino) Act, 1962? Mr Kneale: I beg to ask the chairman of the Isle of Man Gaming Board of Mr Simcocks: May I ask a supple- Control the question standing in my mentary question? Is it not a fact that name:— (a) Are the Casino operators the first mention of a payment to the paying to the Manx Government of 15 per cent. on 15 per cent. of the gross daily receipts gambling was contained in the report of all games played in the gaming of the Select Committee of the House rooms of the premises, as provided in of Keys debated on the 6th June, 1960? sub-section (5) of section 16 of the Gaming, Betting and Lotteries (Casino) The Governor: Will the chairman of Act: 1962? (b) Under what authority the Board reply? is it provided in clause 23 (3) of the Mr J. M. Cain: The hon, member for Casino Regulations, 1962, that the West Douglas put his question to Your amount of the gross receipts of the Excellency. games played in the gaming rooms on any day shall be the total amount taken The Governor: Yes, but I am refer- in stakes at all games so played after ring it to you. deducting therefrom the total amounts of all winnings paid out at such games? Mr J. M. Cain: May I reply to Mr Simcocks first. The answer is yes. Mr J. M. Cain: The answers are:— (a) Paragraph 13 of the report read as Yes. (b) Sub-section (5) of section 16 follows:— of the Act provides that the gross daily Should the Manx Government participate receipts be accounted as the Board in the profits of the Casino and how?

The CasinoL—Questions by Mr Kneale. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10,. 1963 293

We think that the Bill should provide for Mr McFee: Could we have a defini- a Licence fee of not less than 45,000 in the tion from the Attorney-General since case of an approved Casino and of not less than 41,000 in the case of an approved Kur- the hon. member is suggesting that the saal with a commission on the gross product regulations are defining the Act? of the gaming to be fixed by the Board of Control but not to be less than 15 per cent. The Attorney-General: Ordinarily the regulations could not define the Act. The words were "gross product." This but if my recollection is right, the Act was altered in the Council on the pro- desires the Board to say how the gross posal of Deemster Kneale purely for daily receipts are to be accounted and clarification. The "product" was the that is precisely what the regulations intention of the committee when they do. considered the matter. We brought the matter before Tyn.wald giving a defini- The Governor: The questions and tion of "gross receipts" and we thought answers relating to No, 4 have been Tynwald accepted that. circulated as follows:— • Mr Corkhill: "Product" means what Mr Kneale asked the chairman of the is produced but profit is different. It Finance Board, Mr Stephen:— Last is not quite clear. month the total amount paid to Govern- ment by the Casino concessionaires up Mr Colebourn: is the chairman of th.e to the 3rd November, 1963, was stated Gaming Board aware that his colleague, to he £18,737 8s id. Mr Kneale, supported the Casino regulations when they came before Question 1: How was this amount Tynwald for approval? made up? Does it inchkie the amount paid to meet the accountant's salary?— Mr Kneale: I would like to ask Royalties amounted to £13,737 8s id another supplementary question. The and the licence fee was £5,000. Noth- chairman of the Board has stated that ing is included in respect of the the definition of "gross receipts" is accountant's sal ary. given in the regulations but he has not stated whether the regulations take Question 2: What percentage royalties preference over the Act, which has no are charged on the receipts from the definition of "gross receipts." fruit machines and why are they on the net receipts when sub-section (5) of Mr J. M. Cain: I am aware that the section 16 of the Gaming, Betting and regulations do not supersede the Act Lotteries (Casino) Act, 1962, lays down but I feel when we brought the regula- that "The royalties to be paid shall be tions that the definition of "gross not less than 15 per centum of the gross receipts" in them was accepted by daily receipts of all games played in Tynwald and that finished the matter. the gaming rooms of the preirlises"?— I might give an example to show how The expression "net receipts" does not foolish we can be on this question. appear either in the Gaming, Betting Supposing a man went to the Casino and Lotteries (Casino) Act, 1962, or in and exchanged £.100 for chi. Then, the Casino Regulations. 1962. The before he started playing, he was sud- Casino Regulations, 1962, which were denly called away and. exchanged his approved by Tynwald on the 17th Octo- chips back again. The Casino conces- ber, 1962, provide for royalties to be sionaires would have to pay royalties paid as follows:- on that £100, That is how foolish this 23. (1) Subject to the following provisions idea is. Fifteen per cent. on the grass of this regulation the royalties to be paid by receipts as suggested by the hon. mem- the licence holder to the Treasurer shall be ber, Mr Kneale,, would mean that the fifteen per centum of the gross daily receipts operators would lose money and we of all games played in the gaming rooms. (2) Where in any year, calculated from would never get anyone to take the the day on which the licence is issued or concession up. renewed, as the case may be, the aggregate

The Casino—Questions by Mr Kneale. 294 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 of the gross daily receipts exceeds the sums ing at Douglas harbour — (1) for the stated in the first column of the table set out below, the royalties to be paid on the year ended 31st March, 1963, and (2) amounts of such excesses shall be caloulaed for the period 1st April, 1963, to the and paidi at the respective percentages set 12th November, 1963?—(1) £43, 7s 9d; out in the second column of that table, that (2) £941 9s 10d. is to say— Where the aggregate of gross daily Royalties payable receipts exceeds— at- £200.000 20% SUPPLEMENTARY VOTES £300.000 30% £400.000 35% The Governor: Item No. 4 on the (3) For the purposes and subject to the agenda paper. I call oil the hon. mem- provisions of these Regulations the amount ber, the chairman of the Finance Board. Of the gross receipts of the games played in the gaming rooms on any day shall be the Mr Stephen: I beg to move the resolu- total amount taken in stakes at all games so tion standing in my name:— played after deducting therefrom the total amounts of all winnings paid out at such That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be games. authorised to , apply from the General Re- venue of this Isle during the year ended list Question 3: What has been the total March, 1962, a sum not exceeding £10,448, as cost to Government to the 3rd Novem- follows:— ber, 1963?—£5,016 us 2d. Executive Government £645 Administration of Justice £38 Question 4: (a) What was the cost of Expenses of Legislature £3,620 the Board of Control's trip to Las Miscellaneous Services ... £6,145 Vegas? (b) What was the cost of the Such sums to be in addition to the respec- Board of Control's trip to Belgium? tive sums previously voted on the 21st June. (c) What is the total salary that has 1961, and 20th March, 1962. been paid to the inspectors appointed at the request of the Board of Control? The Exchequer and Audit Department (d) What other expenses have been have now completed their examination incurred by the Board of Control?— of the Isle of Man Government (a) £1.667 3s 7d; (b) £293 4s 4d; (c) Accounts for the year ended 31st £1,007 12s 2d; (d) £2,048 Us Id. March,. 1962, but have asked for these four supplementary votes to be placed Question 5: After deducting all ex- before this Court to cover expenditure penses, what is the net amount received in excess of the 'amounts already voted by Government?—£13,720 16s 11d. All for these services in that year. As soon the above quoted figures relate to the as the votes have been passed by this position as at 3rd November, 1963. Court — as I hope they will be — the Mr Kneale: Question 2 has not been accounts will be submitted to the Comp- answered; it has been evaded. troller and Auditor-General for his signature. Executive Government.— £37,000 was voted in June, 1961, and a further sum of £3,350 was voted in TERMINAL BUILDING—QUESTION March, 1942, making a total of £42,350. BY MR J. M. CAIN The actual expenditure exceeded that amount by £644 )7s lid due mainly to The Governor: The questions and the revision of the clerical officers' answers relating to No. 4 have also salary scales during that year. Ad- been circulated:— ministration of Justice.— The original Mr J. M. Cain asked the chairman of vote in June, 1961, was for £23,190 and the Isle of Man Harbour Board:— a supplementary vote of £2,500 was What have been the gross amounts re- approved in March,. 1962. The total ceived by the Board for the use of the 'expenditure for the various depart- waiting hall of the new terminal build- ments included in the administration

Terminal Building—Question by Mr J. M. Cain.—Supplementary Votes. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 295

of justice was £25,727 us 8d, being should have submitted the details of £37 us 8d in excess of the amount this additional expenditure to the Court voted. This excess again resulted from for its approval. Naturally we will the revision of the salary scales in that approve them but I hope in future when year. Expenses of Legislature, —The the Finance Board ask the Court to provision of £34,655 was exceeded by approve something, they will give the £3,619 2s 3d which resulted almost en- Court details of the amounts which are tirely from the unusually long sittings involved and perhaps the Board will in the various branches of the Legisla- note that in future. ture resulting in increased fees being payable for reporting and the printing Mr Gale: Although I support the of the debates cost more than esti- resolution, Your Excellency, I would mated. Miscellaneous Services. —The endorse the remarks of the hon. mem- amount voted in June, 1961. was ber of the Council, Mr Nivison, Also, £138,008 to cover the various services sir, I wish to raise a question under the included under this main head. The heading of miscellaneous services. actual expenditure totalled £144,152 There is one point that interests me 16s 4d, being £6,144 16s 4d in excess of and that is the amount of coal subsidy the vote. The provision for three of this year, last year, and the year before the individual services proved in- that. This is something I will be rais- . sufficient during that year as follows:— ing in the very near future and I would Coal (sea freight) subsidy — vote like to have my facts quite clear. £12400, expenditure £13.362 is 0d. Mr Stephen; I am not going to Rebate on hydrocarbon oils — vote attempt to give the figures off the cuff £67.500, expenditure £71,050 4s fid. dealing with the sea freight subsidy. I Rebate On heavy oils — vote £30,000, will get them if the hon. member wants expenditure £39,297 Gs 6d. The total them. I must say, Your Excellency,. I excess expenditure on these three don't mind being accused of being a .items was £14,609 12s 9d but there dictator—we on the Finance Board are were savings of £8,454 16s 5d on vari- getting quite used to that—but I don't ous other items included in that vote. like being accused of being discourteous The chief savings were in the following and I didn't like Mr Nivison's remark services:— Rebate of viation that we were discourteous. £1,240; pre-service cadet units.. £1,350: miscellaneous charges. £1.300; food Mr Nivison: I apologise for that and reserves, £2,000; and Government bank will withdraw it. I didn't intend to be note issue, £1,700. Hon. members will rude in any way. appreciate that this expenditure has Mr Stephen: Yes. This is a legacy already been incurred to cover the re- we inherited. It is in respect of the spective services which had already years 1961 and 1962 and, in fairness to been approved by Tynwald, and this is this much-maligned department, we a formal vote to regularise the position. had only been in existence for one month. If the Court is not satisfied. Mr Simcocks: 1 second the resolution they can ask to have the matter re- and reserve my remarks. ferred back and all the details can be Mr Nivison: We all realise the neces- supplied. sity for these supplementary votes but The resolution was agreed. imagine that any supplementary vote coming forward on these lines without The Governor: Item 5, supplementary giving details to. say, the Finance vote for 1963-64. I call on the hon. Board would he subject to criticism. chairman a the Finance Board. I think it is right that we would expect Mr Stephen: Your Excellency, dealing that the Finance Boardr if they are with the first resolution, could I ask setting the standard to other people, leave of the Court to amend the figure

Supplementary Votes. 296 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963

on the next to the last line of the first hereto totalling £11.800, such sum to be addi- tional to the sum of £3,980,542 voted by Tyn- paragraph? The figure of £3,985,851 wald on the 21st day of May, 1963. should read £3,980,542. And if I might (2) (a) That the Treasurer of the Isle of interrupt myself for a moment, I can Man he authorised to expend during the year give Mr Gale the figures he required on ending 31st March, 1964, from monies to be borrowed sums not exceeding those set out the sea freight subsidy. The actual in column 4 of the Second Schedule hereto subsidy in 1960-61 was £11,388; in 1961- totalling £372.000 (being supplementary ex- 62, £13,362; and in 1962-63, £14,250. penditure on services already approved by Now, sir, to return to the agenda I beg Tynwald). (b) That Tynwald hereby approves of to move the resolution standing in my borrowings not exceeding £350,000 being name, with the amendment I have re- made by the Government under the provi- ferred to :- sions of the Isle of Man Loans Act, 1958, for the purpose of meeting supplementary ex- (1) That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man penditure under the foregoing sub-paragraph be authorised to apply from the current of this paragraph in excess of existing loan revenue of this Isle during the year ending sanctions as set out in column 5 of the 31st March. 1964. sums not exceeding those Second Schedule, such borrowings to be set out in column 4 of the First. Schedule repaid with a period of thirty years.

FIRST SCHEDULE 1 2 3 4 Item Department or Board Service Amount of Vote 1 Health Services Maintenance of Cronk Ttuagh 1.800 2 Airports Various sub-heads, as approved by the Finance Board 10,000 £11,800

SECOND SCHEDULE 1. 2 •3 4 5 Item Department or Board Service Amount of Loan Vote Sanction 1 Harbour Board Pier Terminal Building 22,000 2 Miscellaneous Services (a) Housing Advances Schemes 250,000 250,000 (b) Development of Industry 100,900 100,000 £372.000 £350.000

Dealing with the first ■schedule' under project fell through and Croak Ruagh item 5, the first item is a revenue vote has reverted to the Health Services of £1,800 for the maintenance of Cronk Board. It is therefore necessary to Ruagh. When this year's estimates make provision for maintenance. Item were framed it was anticipated Cronk 2 of the first schedule is a revenue vote Ruagh would become a Field Studies of £.10,000 to the Airports Board. The Centre. The Health Services Board had Airports Board is one of our commer- agreed to hand over the buildings for cial undertakings, and as such is par- this purpose, and consequently no pro- ticularly vulnerable to the fluctuations vision was made in their estimates for of our seasonal trade. There are two maintenance during the current year. almost equal general reasons for this Unfortunately, the Field Studies Centre vote,, an estimated diminution in re-

Supplemevtary Votes. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 297 ceipts and an estimated increase in ex- vote. I think it indicates that we are penditure. For the second time since meeting a real need, and this must be 1948 the Airports Board are faced with regarded as a very good development. a reduction of receipts, though happily le; is also a very inexpensive method of of not the same proportions as in 1958, "priming the pump" and must be con- when arrivals were down by some tributing to the general prosperity of 51,000 compared with an estimated drop the Island. There may be one or two of 17,000-odd this year. Receipts for hon. members who have fears about landing fees and passenger handling charges are unlikely, therefore, to reach providing such a large sum of money. the estimate. At the same time ex- Ma Y I point out that (a) we will hold penditure has increased, principally on mortgages on property valued in excess salaries and meteorological and tele- of advances as security; (b) advances communications services, by reason of are repaid by monthly instalments of increased salary awards taking effect principal and interest; and (c) the rate during the year, and the Board's esti- of interest charged to borrowers is such mates were so tightly and properly that service of the debt costs us virtu- drawn that it was not possible to ally nothing. To the end of November, absorb these salary increases within the 1963, the Treasurer had received 256 estimates. Another feature of this applications, granted or approved 179 apPlication which has commended it to and refused 27 ; 41 applications were the Finance Board is that none of the withdrawn, the remainder (9) are pend- sub-heads where cuts were enforced ing. The largest loan advanced in re- (except salaries and wages) is shown as spect of a dwelling is £5,700, the exceeding the reduced provision. There smallest £150, and the average £1,850. are other minor adjustments which Dealing with item 2 (b), the develop- have been approved by the Finance Board. In the Second Schedule regard- ment of industry, the vote for the cur- ing the Harbour Board Pier Terminal rent year was/the usual £100,000 as pro- Building, it is anticipated the expendi- vided in the Act, which also provides ture this year may exceed the vote by for such extra sum as may be agreed some £22,000. principally because cer- by Tynwald. Expenditure to 27th tain expenditure will probably fall for November, 1963, was £124,316, and it is payment before 31st March instead of in estimated that by the end of the year 1964-65, as has been anticipated earlier approximately £200,000 may be ex- in the year. This supplementary vote pended in all and cover is sought for does not indicate overspending in itself. this amount involving this supplement- although wages have risen, but turns on ary vote of £100,000. The difficulties the question of timing. and it has been with which we have to contend in the thought desirable at this stage to take • management of this service are (i) un- cover to meet this expenditure in the til we get an application for assistance current year. Turning to the Housing we are often not aware that it is coming Advances Schemes. 1962 and 1063. when forward; (ii) industrialists expect ap- one initiates a new service, one never plications to be dealt with expeditiously. knows exactly how things wi'l turn out and when promises are made they be in the event. This is the case with the fulfilled promptly as required; and (iii) Housing Advances Schemes. It is now when assistance is granted the presenta- almost 17 months since the scheme was tion of the bill rests with the indus- launched. We had no previous experi- trialist and it is not always possible to ence to guide us and of course, there discover exactly when that assistance 4 s no competition from building societies will fall for payment. In framing this in the Island. I would hone that I supplementary vote all necessary allow- would not need to apologise for putting ance -has been made to meet commit- before you such a large supplementary ments expected to fall due for payment

Supplementary Votes. 298 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1963 by the end of the financial year. With Finance Board advise tthe Court as to reference to the current year, the break- what proportion of applicants who have down of the total required at £200,000 been approved, are new residents? _I is approximately :—Loans, £72,000; am wondering how the pattern is de- grants, £41,000; purchase or erection of veloping. buildings and plant which remain in the ownershop of the Government £72,000; Mr Matthews: Your Excellency, I and miscellaneous, including repairs would like some clarification as to and renewals of buildings, provision of whether either of these schemes cover roads, sewers, etc., and services, survey shops or trading premises. costs, etc., £15,000 ; total. £200 000. Of this total of £200,000 therefore, over Mr Gale: Your Excellency, whilst I three-quarters is either secured and will support this resolution, item 2 in the be repaid or is represented by assets Schedule here—£10,000— interests me. owned by the Government. I would Have the Finance Board taken into particularly ask hon. members to bear consideration the possibility that we this in mind. In this matter of indus- are finding ourselves with less visitors trial development we are not quite so because we have got ourselves tied up open-handed as some hon. members with so few operators? My visit to would have us believe. I beg to move. Jersey recently enlightened me. There, Mr Simcocks: I beg to second and re- there is a free for all. Anyone can serve my remarks. come along and operate services. They are not so rigid as here. I'm afraid we Mr Corkhill: I have just one question haven't got enough operators coming to I would like to ask the hon. mover, the Island. The second point I want to Your Excellency. He said this was a make, Your Excellency, is regarding cheap way of borrowing money. He this £22,000 for the Pier terminal. Are also gave an instance where the sum of we allowed to assume that the Pier £5,700 had been given as mortgage. terminal is going to cost in excess of What are the terms of borrowing? £400,000? Mr Stephen: It is provided in the Mr Kelly: No. scheme, as far as I undenstand the hon. member's question, and I am having Mr Gale: That is all I wanted to difficulty in so doing. The scheme pro- know. vides the rate of interest charged to the borrower will not be less than k per Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, could I cent. more than the rate at which the ask a question with regard to this Government borrow money at, £10.000 for the Airports Board? Reference was made to increases in Mr Moore: Could I ask the chairman salaries which had taken effect during of the Finance Board whether he has the current year. Is it not a fact that proceeded any further with the assur- there will be increases in salaries ance he gave me some time ago regard- taking effect on work being done with ing the extension of this scheme to the just about every Board of Tynwald? purchase of farms by young farmers If so, are we going to be faced with with limited capital? I think it would supplementary votes for every Board be rendering a service to the Island to or is this peculiar to the Airports do this. To give such help from the Board who did not forsee that salaries Manx Government would provide a ser- were going up? vice for the Island and its people. Mr J. M. Cain: For the hon. member Mr Kerruish: I wonder. Your Excel- to ask a question in that way implies a lency, could the hon. chairman of the slight on the Airports Board in that

Supplementary Votes. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, l963 299

they did not have foresight of increases Mr Macleod: Your Excellency, I in salaries. I would like to ask the would like to ask the chairman of the chairman of the Finance Board didn't Finance Board a question. Supposing he deal very harshly with the Airports a firm comes from Great Britain or Board estimates? some other country for that matter and the Government here build a factory A Member: Not as much as the and then that firm fails to come—they Highway Board! renegue — have we any come-back? I have heard it said that the Govern- Sir Ralph Stevenson: Your Excel- ment built a factory at Ronaldsway for lency, I would like to support this a glass tube arm and then they didn't resolution, especially from the point of come and the factory is now vacant. Have we any come-back here? This view of the Industrial Advisory Coun- was built for a specific purpose and yet cil. This extra £100,000 may seem a will now have to be used for another large amount this year but it is not as purpose. frightening as it may seem, Your Excellency. Seventy -four thousand Mr Kneale:• Your Excellency, my pounds of it is in respect of expendi- observations are along the same lines ture which the Council has recom- as those of Mr Macleod. They deal mended and which has been approved with the new factory at Ronaldsway. by the Finance Board and, of this only We were told there was an urgent need £3,400 is, in fact, for grants. The re- for one at Ronaldsway and so they mainder is for loans which will be worked on it night and day to get it repaid in full eventually and which will up. Yet now it is empty. It is a model attract interest in the meantime and factory but they were prepared to 'for buildings which will produce hand it over to someone who wanted to rentals. There is one further thing make bricks in it. Fortunately the which may be of interest to - the Planning Committee were able to stop Court and that is that part of this that. If there is such a need for fac- money is to provide an oxygen' tories and supplementary votes like generating plant. This will, I hope, this, Your Excellency, we _must be provide a useful service for local users assured that the factories will not lie by the production of oxygen at .a con- idle when they are built. siderably lower price than is presently charged for imported gas and yet will Mr Callister: Your Excellency,. I be sufficient to give the Government a would like to ask one question. Now reasonable return on the capital outlay. much of this money will be capital ex- About five applications are, Your Excel- penditure and how much will come out . lency, still in the process of being con- of general revenue? I think some of it sidered by the Industrial Advisory should be capital expenditure. Council and if they are approved by the Finance Board in the current year, Mr Nivison: I support this resolu- they will absorb an amount of £26,000 tion, Your Excellency. I think it is —the rest of that £100,000. Of these doing a lot of gocid in the provision of five,, four refer to the provision of industries and homes on the Island. factory premises or, alternatively, the There is one question I would- like to extension of existing buildings, and ask, however. It is alleged that the that also will provide rentals and in prices of property on the Island have .eac'i case an increase in the staff em- gone up considerably in the last year • ployed will result. I hope, Your Excel- and it is suggested that one of the fac- lency. the Court will have no hesita- tors for the increase could be the avail- tion in agreeing to this supplementary ability of money too easily. .I wonder vote. if the Finance Board are watching this

Supplementary Votes. 300 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1903 point. The fact that 95 per cent. of the doubt, .too, that property prices were money to purchase property is avail- repressed up to a few years ago. The able from Government sources could be Finance Board are aware of the fact a contributory factor to the high prices that the availability of money has, to now being charged for property and if some extent, had the effect of harden- this is so, they could be more extra- ing the prices of real estate on the selective as to the people to whom they Island. But I would point out that give money in the form of mortgages. there are other policies of the Govern- Building societies in the . rest of the ment for inducing people to come here country have acknowledged this situa- to live with their capital and this has tion and they have adjusted their rates increased the demand for accommoda- in particular areas because of this in tion in the Island and that greater the interests of the borrowers. Some- demand has increased the price of pro- times, to make 95 per cent. of the pur- perty too. It must be remembered. chase price of property available to however, that there are two limiting certain people is the worse thing you factors on how much money is ad- could do. I do hope the Finance Board vanced under the Housing Advances will watch this situation very care- Scheme. One is the valuation of the fully, Your Excellency. The prices of property by a housing surveyor and, houses has, unquestionably, gone up in secondly, the borrowing of money the Island in the last year. People are under this scheme does involve fairly now paying enormous sums for substantial repayments for anything ordinary three bedroom semi-detached but small mortgages on a monthly houses which are almost twice what basis. And very often the amount they were worth some years ago. which can be loaned is governed by the availability of income by the Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, I applicant. The Finance Board has to think there are two points which could find what is considered to be a fair be dealt with here. Firstly, if I could balance between advancing money to deal with the point raised by Mr Nivi- inflate prices and advancing money to son with regard to the price of pro- encourage the people of this Island to perty. I think we must remember that purchase their own homes. It has the Housing Advances Scheme loans been established as part of the policy money on a percentage of the valua- of the Local Government Board that tion of the property in question and people should be encouraged by not the price. That, I think, is the Government schemes to build or pur- safeguard which the hon. member of chase their own homes — if they can the Council wishes. I think you will afford to do so — so as to make their agree with me that it is a safeguard to present accommodation owned by the minimise the undoubted fact that pro- Local Government Board or local au- perty has increased in price recently. thorities available for others who need them; I think the scheme can be said Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, I do to be extremely successful and this not wish to interrupt the hon. member supplementary vote is a measure of the but would he not agree that the valua- success of the scheme. As for the tion of property would have regard to question raised by Mr Kneale,. I would the current prices? remind the hon, member that the fac- tory which he refers to as being empty Mr Simcocks: It is not for me to say was not the one which was built in how it is that a professionally trained such haste. That, I think, was the valuer comes to a valuation. There is extension'to the Ronaldsway Aircraft no doubt, I agree. that property has company premises. In fact, two fac- increased in price. But there is no tories were erected at RonaldswaY,

Supplementary Votes. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 301 one for the Malew Engineering Com- Mr Macleod: That does not answer pany and one for the Charmaine Stock- the question I asked that the firms ing Factory. In each case these fac- come over here and order factories and tories were erected under pressure in I asked if they laid down the money. order to make it possible for the They could come here and have a fac- Ronalds‘vay Aircraft Company to make tory built and then go away and leave the extensions which seem to me to it. offer the prospect of valuable addi- tional employment. The factory which Sir Ralph Stevenson:. Provided we is standing empty and to which Mr are satisfied as to their financial stand- Kneale referred was not built under ing. those circumstances of the pressure of Mr Callister: They cannot take it time. away with them. The Acting-Speaker: Could I ask the Mr Stephen: I am obliged to Sir hon. member a question as to the Ralph Stevenson for giving details of amount of money spent since the the industrial matters which are more Development Act of 1949 was passed in his administrative field. The hon. and, of the £100,000 set aside, how member for Garff, Mr Moore. has sug- much has been authorised so far? gested that we might extend the Hous- ing Advances Scheme to cover farms. Sir Ralph Stevenson: It might be of When he raised the matter previously assistance. Your Excellency, to the I said to him there was some merit chairman of the Finance Board, if I in his scheme and he might elect were to answer the question raised by to put it before the Board of Agri- the hon. member for Glenfaba. culture, which is the policy-making body. My suggestion still stands. If The Governor: On a point of ex- the hon. member is prepared to put the planation. scheme .up to the Board, I am sure the hon. member's suggestion will have Sir Ralph Stevenson: The only real consideration from the Finance Board. comment to be made on this question Obviously this is not a matter we can is that there is many a slip between the initiate, otherwise our lives would be- cup and the lip. The factory was built come impossible. Now the hon. mem- for a firm but circumstances outside' ber for Rushen, Mr Matthews, asked a their control, and indeed our control, question as to whether this covered prevented them from coming over, business premises. Quite definitely though we were satisfied with regard to this does not cover business premises. their financial standing. They were Mr Gale asked a question on the policy unable to rise the factory but it is ex- of the Airports Board as to whether tremely useful for the Island to have a they could widen their scope and factory available and we have had make themselves operators. Mr Gale applications for it. There are other said that he would be getting this mat- places in the United Kingdom, parti- ter in and he has made his point and I cularly in the north-east, where they am sure it will be considered by the build factories "on spec" in order to Airports Board and it will no doubt attract industries and we have got one affect their estimae. Mr Gale also now. The hon. member for West Dou- asked a question about the Pier glas is misinformed about the same terminal and it was practically factory as the hon. member for Rushen answered by Mr Speaker. There is no has pointed out. There is no ques- indication to the Finance Board that tion of it being usad to make bricks: this scheme at the Victoria Pier will the factory is much too good for that. cost more than has been estimated. I

Supplementary Votes. 302 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963

would like to inform the hon. member when I realised the problems, as I had for Ayre, Mr Kerruish, that I have just done, and heard them emphasised by been handed a piece of paper with re- speeches on both sides, I realised then gard to the application of the housing how well we had done in the Ise of scheme to new residents. My informa- Man to have done as well as we have tion is that there have been 10 advances done. We have had disappointments to new residents and six to key workers where the factory was concerned but it now on the Island. He also asks if we has resolved itself and it will be used can detect any trends and I will put it to good purpose. Mr Nivison was this way, that it is enabling our own answered effectively by Mr Simcocks. people to acquire their own houses. I vice-chairman of the Finance Board. think Mr Cain of the Airports Board and I do not think it would be the wish dealt with Mr Bolton's questian regard- of the Court to restrict the housing ing increases of salaries for officials of scheme. It is serving a useful purpose the Airports Board. I believe there and it is subject to safeguards which have been certain other awards which are exercised by the treasurer, and I will have to be dealt with in future think we should congratulate ourselves and we have not stated the Board's it is progressing so well when we have position and we do not know if they such a demand on our Island resources. can be carried out or whether there The Speakef asked for the total will be some adjustments. Mr Cain amounts paid on industrial develop- also said that we dealt harshly with ment since 1949. I could not possibly the Airports Board estimaths but we give the answer at the moment and try to be realistic and we have dealt doubt if the treasurer could at this with his Board's supplementary vote precise moment, but. I will assure him in a realistic manner on good cause I will get the information and give it being shown. Standing as I do in this to him. Court. Your Excellency,, it is obvious The resolution was agreed. that one of my best props is a well- informed treasurer and he has just passed me a note that most of the• salary increases have been accepted through existing votes. The hon. mem- AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE ber for West Douglas, Mr Kneale, sug- (GRADING AND MARKING) gests that the Planning Committee have (HONEY) REGULATIONS, 1963, stopped a factory from serving a use- APPROVED ful purpose. I am not criticising the The Governor: There is not much Planning Committee — although I time before lunch but there might be wonder if the actual use to which a time to deal with one or two small factory is put is really their concern— items. We will take item 11 and I call but I have been wondering why Mr on the chairman of the Board of Agri- Kneale seems to thrive on our mis- culture and Fisheries. fortunes. Mr ff. H. Radcliffe: I beg to move the Mr Kneate: Because there are so resolution standing in my name:— many, (Laughter.) That the Agricultural Produce (Grading Mr Stephen: In striking the balance and Marking) (Honey/ Regulations, 1963. we have done extraordinarily well made by the Isle of Man Board of Agricul- ture and Fisheries on the 29th October, 1963, with our industrial development. When under the provisions of the Agriculture/ •I was in London last week. I spent Produce (Grading and Marking) Act, 1931, three-and-a-half hours in the House of be and the same are hereby approved. Commons last Wedne.iday listening to Members have been circulated with the a strongly-contested debate on the regulations together with the new development of north-west England and order, the explanatory memorandum of

Agricultural Produce (Grading and Marking) (Honey) Regulations, 1963, Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 303 which makes the matter quite clear. continues the regulations first intro- The regulations for 1956 applied to the duced in 1951 regarding the importation "lVlanxmark" and referred to honey as of birds of the parrot family such as "crystallised" or "clear," but unfortun- budgerigars but the regulations do not ately, the clear honey in the initial apply to birds from the United King- stages became crystallised so that the dom. description is not correct. In the Mr Macleod: Does that mean that circumstances we recommended and ap- proved that the description be changed a parrot and members of the parrot family can be imported into Britain, to "pure Manx honey," and that is the say to Liverpool, and brought over to purpose of this order. There is no relaxation in the standard and quality the Isle of Man from there? Must they . of Man xmark honey. That has been have a pe:iod of quarantine in Great • Britain before coming to the Island? agreed upon, that the standards set out You could bring a parrot from Africa in the original order are maintained in the new order, and thiS is merely a to Liverpocl and someone could take it matter of a provision for the changing on a boat and bring it here. in appearance of good pure Manx honey Mr McFee: There are similar regula- and describing it as such instead of tions in England. No birds of the parrot crystallised or clear. species are imported except under • Mr Farrant: I beg to second, Your Ex- licence. celleicy, and I might say that it has the Mr Mcleod: That is what you think. support of the 1Vlanxmark Committee. Mr McFee: One or two may have The resolution was agreed. come over from Scotland. (Laughter.) The Court adjourned for lunch, and resumed at 2-30 p.m. PARROTS (PROHIBITION OF IM- PORTATION) REGULATIONS, 1963, APPROVED. The Governor: Item No. 12. I call on RESOLUTION ON COMMON PURSE the chairman of the Local Government WITHDRAWN. Board. The Governor: We resume then, Mr McFee: I beg to move the resolu- gentlemen, to take the petitions. tion standing in my name:— Mr J. M. Cain: I was wondering, That the Parrots (Prohibition of Importa- Your Excellency, whether you would tion) Regulations, 1963, made by the Isle of Man Local GOverntnent Board on the 15th allow me to make a statement. In view November, 1963, under the provisions of sec- of Your Excellency's statement regard- tion 195 of the Local Government Consolida- ing the review of the present arrange- tion Act 1916, be and the same are hereby ment of the Common Purse, I feel it is approved. my duty to withdraw my resolution to- Item No 12 refers to the Parrots (Pro- day. I still think, at a later stage, when hibition of Importation) Regulations, you have the matter settled between the and hon. members will be well aware two Governments, an inquiry might be that parrots have a disease known as held to the advantage of the Island, but psittacosis, and also that they can at the present time I wish to withdraw spread their contact with other birds of my resolution so the negotiations can this type. go on. Mr Nivison: We have enough parrots The Governor: For the information of here. the Court perhaps I may make a short Mr McFee: This is an order which observation. I feel sure the hon. mem- was made in 1951, and the regulations ber may probably feel at a later stage have been enforced since then and this he may wish to re-introduce it to Tyn-

Parrots (Prohibition of Importation) Regulations, 1963, Approved.—Resolution on Common Purse Withdrawn. 304 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10. 1063

wald. The review of the Common tered contractors and two tenders were Purse arrangement, to which I referred, received. They have accepted the will specifically relate to the Common lower tender for £73355 18s Id, and in Purse as it is worked and, presumably, addition to that there is the sum of will continue to work for the rest of the £20,144 to be added for the construction decennial period. In the light of that of a new road and layout. This is to be assumption, even the Government it- carried out by Dougias Corporation self—without prompting from Mr Cain —may wish to examine other angles. themselves, by direct labour. One or Do I take it that item 16 is withdrawn? two things are interesting with regard to this report. Hon. members will see This was agreed, on page 5 that the experience of Dou- glas might be helpful to other authori- ties when considering the costing of new PETITION OF PEEL COMMISSION- houses. You will see there that the ERS FOR £10,250 TO DEVELOP LAND three-bedroomed house costs, per square .foot of floor space, £3 Is per The Governor: Well then, gentlemen, square foo:: a two-bedroomed house we will take the petitions. Item 17, the costs £4 7s nd per square foot. I think petition of Peel Town Commissioners. bungalow costs £4 2s 6d; and a one- I call on the hon. chairman of the Local bedroomed bungalow of different type Government Board. costs £4 7s 24 per square foot. I think Mr McFee: I beg to report on petition it is most interesting to see that the No. 1 in the name of the Peel Town most economic method of providing Commissioners, for authority to borrow houses Is stall the large, three-bed- a sum not excedeing £10,250. at a rate roomed house—that is, if there are of interest not exceeding £5 per families wh3 wish to acquire that type centum per annum. This is to develop of house. I beg to move that the land for building in 'the district known prayer of the petition be granted. as West View in Peel, and most of the work will be carried out by direct Mr H. S. Cain seconded, and the peti- labour on the construction of roads and tion was approved. sewers. I beg to recommend that this petition be granted. Mr Gale seconded, and the petition PETITION BY ONCHAN COMMIS- was agreed. SIONERS GRANTED. Mr McFee: I beg to report on petition No. 3 in the name of the Onchan Village PETITION OF DOUGLAS CORPORA- Commissioners. The original petition TION FOR £98,500 FOR ERECTION was for a borrowing term of 60 years OF BUNGALOWS; ETC. for the full amount of £13,000, which Mr McFee: I beg to report on petition included the sum of £2,745 for boats. No. 2, in the name of Douglas Corpora- We asked at the inquiry — that is the tion, to borrow a sum not exceeding Local Government Board asked—that £98,500, at a rate of interest not exceed- this amount should be borrowed for the ing 5 per cent. and to be repaid within estimated lifetime of the boats, which a period of 60 years. The petitioners we suggested was 10 years, and so the are desirous of erecting on a portion of original petition has now been amended the Glencrutchery estate 24 one-bed- in that way. I recommend that the roomed bungalows, six two-bedroomed prayer of the petition be granted. houses, and four three-bedroorned houses. Tenders for the said bungalows Mr Stephen seconded and the resolu- and houses were invited from regis- tion was agreed.

Petition of Peel Commissioners for £ 0,250 to Develop Land. — Petition of Douglas Corporation for £98.500 for Erection of Bungalows, etc.—Petition by Onchan Commissioners Granted. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10.. 1963 305

ALTERATIONS TO RAMSEY sultation, the latter would have to be COTTAGE HOSPITAL APPROVED interrupted and the patient sent to the waiting-room while the casualty is The Governor: Now, gentlemen, we dealt with. Where privacy is im- resume on our agenda at item No. 6, Ramsey Cottage Hospital, and I call on perative, such as in psychiatric cases, the deputy-chairman of the Health consultations have to be carried out in Services Board. the surgeons' changing-room. There are no facilities for physiotherapy in Mr Kelly: It is with great pleasure the hospital and improved sterilizing that I move this resolution to-day arrangements are essential. The Board standing in the name of the chairman who have had many discussions with or the Isle of Man Health Services the management committee agree that Board:-- the alterations and modifications pro- That Tynwald approves— posed are necessary and, if carried out. (1) of the Isle of Man Health Services Board will prove of great advantage not only carrying out modifications and improve- to the north of the Island but to the ments at Ramsey Cottage Hospital at a Island's hospital services generally. cost not exceeding £46.000: and Now dealing with the plans for the out- (2) of borrowings not exceeding £46,000 being made by the Government under patients' and ancillary departments, the provisions of the Isle of Man Loans the plans provide for: (I) A new out- Act. Ma, for the purpose of meeting ex- patients' department to be erected on penditure under the foregoing sub- land situate south of the hospital and paragraph, such borrowings to be repaid within a period of forty years. joined thereto by a short connecting' link. (2) A new main entrance in Unfortunately the chairman, Mr Cumberland Road, the space between Speaker, is not here to-day to present the road and the proposed building the scheme to the Court. I hope 'the being utilised as a car park and Court will not hesitate to help the approach to the hospital. (3) A separate management committee of the Ramsey ambulance entrance to the outpatients' Cottage Hospital who, for some con- department. (4) A waiting area inside siderable time, have been really con- and adjoining , the entrance vestibule cerned about the outpatients depart- which would serve the existing hospital, ment of the present hospital. There is the physiotherapy department, casualty something radically wrong when people treatment and X-ray departments and who visit the hospital have to wait in consulting rooms. Toilet accommoda- a small waiting-room and a hall when, tion is included. (5) Offices for the at the same time, operations and con- matron and clerk, with an inquiry sultations are taking place adjacent to counter in a convenient position. the waiting-room. We on the Board, Hitherto the matron has had to make along with the committee, have dis- use of a sitting-room or an X-ray room cussed this matter very fully in all its in the original building for administra- aspects. and actually some of us have tive and clerical work. (6) A physio- bean away to see the type of building therapy department in the west wing which would be suitable. At the of the new building comprising three present time there is no physiotherapy treatment cubicles and a gymnasium. department there and no physio- (7) A sterilising room as near as therapist. We have to bring patients practicable to the existipg hospital to from Ramsey to Noble's Hospital. The provide the maximum benefit. (8) A • present outpatients' department is casualty treatment room and an X-ray wholly inadequate. This room has to department with cubicles and dark- be used for consultations; as a casualty room within easy access of the casualty theatre; and as a ward sterilizing room. entrance. (9) Two consulting rooms Should a casualty arrive during a con- and an equipment room. Construction

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital Approved. 306 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10. 1963 and Domestic Services.—The construc- ing waiting-room into a store; (g) im- tion •generally is to be of impregnated provements to the existing kitchen. timber framework with insulated The heating and domestic water ser- panels and steel beams supporting a vices are at present operating at their built-up bitumen felt roof finished with respective full capacities and in order green mineral surfacing. The light- to cater for the proposed extensions and weight construction method to be em- possible future projects, it is necessary ployed will permit of maximum flexi- to replace the present boilers with two bility in the internal partitioning installations and provide arrangements and savings should be 'pumps in the existing circuits to made in constructional time. Part of accelerate circulation, re-position a the external walls will be finished in H.W. cylinder, provide a 150-gallon cedarwood: the elevations facing heat exchanger and carry out con- Cumberland Road to the west and part •sequential alterations to the present of the north are to be of brickwork system. A sum of £46,000 was in- with stone facings. Internal walls and cluded in the Board's capital estimate floor surfacings are generally to be in for the current financial yehr but as it a Qlastic-faced material to reduce appears to be unlikely that payments maintenance to a minimum and dust- will be made before the 1st April, 1964, traps as far as possible will be it is considered that this provision eliminated. The building is to be should be repeated in the estimate for centrally heated and provided with hot the ensuiml, financial year. The hos- and cold water services and electrifica- pital trustzes have expressed their tion in accordance with hospital willingness to transfer securities of a requirements. A new drain is required, market value in 1961 of approximately connected to the existing sewer in £30..000 to the Government towards this Cumberland Road, and a new two-inch scheme, Your Excellency, the method diameter water main from the existing of construction is rather revolutionary four-inch Isle of Man Water Board for the Island and hospital buildings main in this road. The drain level of and We are satisfied we are on the right the existing hospital is not satisfactory lines here. We have seen the actual for connection and the present water extensions in several hospitals in main is of insufficient capacity to allow Lancashire. We have seen the Jewish for the proposed additional load. The Memorial Hospital. This has been method of construction and the done in many parts and it has a life- materials employed are such that in the time of many years. The western wing ei/ent of further extensions becoming of the Crank Ruagh has been good for necessary, the additions could be many years too—in fact, it is the only sim-oly effected at less cost than if part of the building which has not had traditional methods had been em- to have repairs. Your Excellency, we ployed. Modifications to the existing are satisfied we are on the right lines hospital are: (a) Nurses' changing- here. The arrangement is that the room and toilet: (b) shower in prefabrication will be brought in from surgeons' changing-room: (c) con- England and the foundations will be version of X-ray room into nurses' done by local labour. I understand dining-room; (d) re-positioning of the from the architect that if this scheme - staircase to the first floor by removing is approved to-day, the foundations it from the corridor and utilising the could be get ready in the new year. dark-room space for a new staircase The prefabricated parts will then be positi.qn; (e) conversion of the existing sent here by ship. That is what we outpatients' theatre to a general pur- intend to do, Your Excellency, and we pose room; (f) conversion of the exist- do hope that the Court will support the

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1063 :a07

Health Services Board in the develop- Mr Stephen: This is aZ:cording to the ment of the north of the Island. This estimates approved by Tynwald in May. is an 'integral part of the health ser- Provision was made for the financing vices and yet this will he the first time of this scheme as and when it came we will have had to spend any amount before Tynwald. of money there. The alterations at the hospital in the past have been carried Mr McFee: Thank you for the ex- out by the trustees. They are, in fact, planation. I was under the impression - prepared to hand over securities to the that whilst it had been included in the market value of £67,000 which they capital estimates, it was not allowed hold at present if., in its wisdom, this for during the current year. Court wishes. But it would be a shame Mr Stephen: The chairlift was the to interfere with investments which is one knocked out. mostly war loan and worth only about £31,000 to-day. Your Excellency, I beg Mr McFee; We will deal with that to move the resolution. when the occasion arises? Your Excel- lency, my reason for speaking now Mr H. H. Radcliffe seconded and re- was that I wanted to get down to plan- served his remarks. ning priorities with regard to develop- ment of any kind in the island. I look Mr Farrant: Your Excellency, may I upon this vote as development and ex- ask a question? Has the Acting- pansion as I would consider South Speaker got a plan from the architect? Ramsey or development of any other It is a pity that the Court has not had town or even housing in the Island. an opportunity of seeing a plan as it is This is an expansion of the health and a little confusing, particularly to those social services on the Island and I who do not live in the north of the would like to know who is it who has Island. According to the development, determined the priorities of this kind I believe there will be an entirely new of general development of the social entrance? services and health services throughout Mr McFee: Your Excellency, whilst I the Island. I find that in my part of agree with this item on the agenda for the Island there are two old buildings to-day's Tynwald, I reserve the right to which have been lying empty for two have certain questions answered by the years although we are crying out for mover of the resolution and to receive accommodation. One of the reasons certain information if I am to support given by the Board of Social Services this vote. First of all, as a chairman is that this item of £1,000 or so was cut of a Board, I would like the chairman out of the current estimates so they are of the Finance Board to give us some unable to renovate the property for old explanation with regard to supple- people to live in. Yet, although these mentary votes in general. If you re- houses are lying vacant, we find that member. during the debate on Budget in the same area new accommodation day, we were warned that all sup- is being built at Marashen Crescent by p'ementary votes would be more or less the Local Government Board—for the frowned upon and we would have to same purpose. I-fere is an example of come forward with a severe and justifi- the need for some co-ordination of able argument before any supplement- priorities. I do beIiev61 that before ary vote would be granted-- any further major developments—of a capital nature or otherwise — are Mr Stephen: Your Excellency, this is planned by the Board of Social Services not a supplementary vote. or Health Services Board, they should send or place before Tynwald their co- Mr McFee: Was this not removed ordinated plans for the future five or from the estimates for this year? 10 years for the development of the

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital Approved. 308 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10. 1963

social and health services on the Island. definitely is to the hospital that is in I would like to know from the chair- existence in Ramsey. It is also pro- man whether this scheme for Ramsey is viding new clinical services for which part of an all-Island survey or is the the south of the Island and Peel asked development purely singled out for one for and had been denied and I feel that the vice-chairman must justify that part of the Island? There is no doubt. this is part of the clinical and ancillary - after listening to the vice-chairman of physiotherapy services which will be the Health Services Board, that we are extended to other parts of the Island. creating a medical clinic in the north I hope, from that, they can justify this of the Island. This is a new direction. as part of a comprehensive plan and, I don't say it is an undesirable thing. before votes of this magnitude are It has been clamoured for and asked for introduced to the Court in future, that in other parts of the Island too, but the Board of Social Services and the here we find there is to be new develop- Health Services Board will have got ment and an extension of the health together to produce a plan and a services only in this part of the Island. scheme of development which will serve It will involve the setting up of com- the Island in general. After all, I feel quite strongly about conditions still plete medical services which don't even existing at Noble's Hospital with. regard exist in such a grandiose manner in to outpatients, for Noble's Hospital, our existing hospital at Noble's. I even if this extension is carried out in would like to know,. Your Excellency. the north, will provide for 90 per cent, whether it is the intention of the of the Island's requirements, and I feel Health Services Board to follow this up that this, in my opinion, is the No. 1 in Peel and the south of the Island and priority for health services develop- set up medical health clinics there with ment of this kind. Mr Kelly, the vice- physiotherapists and the ancillary chairman, has said something about services so that the people in the out- building and construction methods and towns are not travelling daily and materials used. I am not aware that weekly by ambulance for the services the Planning Committee have seen the provided at Noble's. This project, details and I hope when they are sub- Your Excellency, is contrary to the mitted, they will comply with the model views held some years ago when the bye-laws we have recently adopted,. Health Services Board denied Peel. because the bye-laws must not They said they would not support a differentiate or discriminate between £60,000 endowment for Peel to provide Government departments and private a cottage hospital. They said it was builders. This is a most important their intention to spend .R.1,000,000 at principle because if you cannot keep Noble's and make it a "super hospital" your own house in order And cannot and therefore there would be no need keep regulations by Government, how for other hospitals to be extended or are you going to expect private indivi- created in other parts of the Island. duals to conform to them. I hope They pointed out that in Liverpool, the when this comes forward it will comply general hospital there had to cover a with the requirements of the bye-laws general area of 20 or 30 miles radius and the planning regulations adopted and compared to that, what was Peel generally in the Isle of Man. and Port Erin from Douglas? The Board said Noble's would be a general Mr Nivison: In supporting the resolu- hospital supplying the latest and best tion, I would say that the Health Ser- and up-to-date hospital services that vices Board have kept the Board of any Island or town community could Social Services fully informed regard- expect. Now, however, we find there ing any developments and provisions has been a change of idea. This in different parts of the Island and, in

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 30

turn, the Board of Social Services have with the particular development and I been constantly in touch with the am sure it will be very essential. I Health Services Board of any possible have made a note about the little houses developments they have in mind, and. which were rejected—or their renova- am reluctant to embark on an ex- tion was rejected—in the last estimates. planation without putting everyone in I am happy to see negotiations are the picture and that is that negotiations going on after two years and there are proceeding because it is obvious were certain reasons why they were that the housing of old people is causing not proceeded with. The early reasons concern both to the Health Services were outside our control, largely that Board and the Board of Social Services, certain people were haggling whether and that something may have to be they should pass over the houses to the done. on a big scale in the south. We Board of Social Services. It may be have resisted this for many years, not history but it was the main factor and only because of the capital cost, but you cannot pin the blame on the because of the subsequent maintenance. Finance Board or Tynwald or the The capital costs are small in relation Board of Social Services and now is the and if that home was to be erected in time we are dealing with the negotia- the south, with accommodation for 50 tions. Plans are being prepared and it peop:e, it could be built in a matter of weeks, but the maintenance is causing is hoped that when money is available, conceit and the Board of Social Ser- they will be made available. I was vices and the Health Services Board alarmed to read that in this develop- have had consultations on this matter ment — we being a very conservative and are still continuing the negotia- people, and I use the word "conserva- tions, I do not have the fears that my tive" in its proper sense and not hon. colleague and friend has over the politically— that we are reluctant to Ramsey Cottage Hospital in the ques- embark on structures of this nature. tion of clinical arrangements or in pro- and I am surprised to find a Board of viding facilities that are already there. Tynwald embarking on this type of At Noble's Hospital, however, we have building — that it is of impregnated no accommodation so far as the out- timber and cedar-wood construction. patients are concerned and we would Anyone having dealings with this type hope that similar facilities could be of woodwork, knowing the Island with offered in Noble's Hospital. (Hear, its particular climate, will say that they hear.) I think, for myself, that I have have had difficulties, and I would have asked quesIcions on this point every hoped that a Government building or year for the past 10 years and I think hospital might have been more of the everyone here will wish that when the traditional type of bricks and mortar Health Services Board estimates come and tiles and slates and not a felt roof. up. that there will be provision for out- They are looked upon as temporary patients at Noble's Hospital. It should structures and I think we would have not be unreasonable but we must not been happier to have spent five to ten feel that if we have not got them yet thousand pounds more if it had been a at Noble's that we should prevent any- brick building with a roof of tiles and one else getting them. Some people slates. I know that the cedarwood type may infer that as we have not got them of buildings are beautiful in the first yet at Noble's, we should make Ramsey year of erection but as the sun comes wait a little longer and then they could up and the rain comes down, it becomes have them secondly. I think that discoloured. If you put oil on it, it goes priorities are judged by several circum- black, and if you put varnish on it, then stances and I believe the Board are to it loses its colour. I am not particu- be complimented in coming forward larly happy with the cedarwood con-

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital Approved. 310 TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10, 1963

struction of the kind we have in the as much as in Peel. Mr Kaneen re- Isle of Man and .1 would have hoped ferred to a proper outpatients' depart- that the Board would have experi- ment in Noble's Hospital and it is most mented with one or two of the Ameri- urgently needed. can type of bungalows but. of general construction, I would have, preferred Sir Henry Sugden: I am supporting it to be of the traditional ' brick type this vote, Your Excellency. I do know with roof cif tiles and slates. Neverthe- from personal experience it is neces- less I do not intend to oppose the vote sarY and some of the suggested im- before us and I hope the Health Ser- ,provements, particularly in regard to vices Board will give careful considera- the waiting-room, are essential. I am tion to any further construction of this sorry that the proposals have not gone kind. rather further' because I would have liked to have seen the inclusion of a Mr Kaneen: In support of the resolu- maternity home, not the full maternity tion. I would like to congratulate the .facilities, but we do have a need in the Health Services Board in getting down north for certain emergency services to the job. As a member of the Health and I do hope the Health Services Board Services Board, I know that this matter will give consideration to this problem. has been before us about six times, I would like the assurance of the deputy going backwards and forwards, but chairman of the Health Services Board now it is before us. Now I would like in one thing. He has' suggested to us to ask the chairman of the Health Ser- that special construction is going- to be vices Board if the outpatients' depart- used. I believe, and I understood him ment at Noble's Hospital could be given to say„ it would be let out on a one- some attention.. It has been neglected. tender basis to a specialist firm across. Here we have a matter of £30.000 with Now, as Your Excellency is aware, I Ike initial cost, so let us get on with have expressed my disquiet on the the'job, but let us do something as well employment problem on the north and I for Noble's Hospital. hope I will have the assurance from the Health Services Board that, the Mr H. S. Cain: I am only going to say timber apart, as much local labour is one or two things, Your Excellency. employed as possible. Certainly un- Mr Nivison has stated his fears that the skilled labour could be employed in the building of cedarwood will go shabby foundation work and on the water but you can get a dye by which you main and I hope local labour will be can keep the colour of the building and employed on the traditional construc- it is in a natural colour. It is only tion for the north and west wings. I when you put on oil and varnish that do hope I will get that assurance and it will go dark, and if you leave it that the foundation work will start as alone it will go white, but you could get soon as possible because, as I said this the proper dye to keep the cedarwood morning, there is a considerable in its natural colour. In the case of amount of unemployment now in Ram- physiotherapy, t am concerned about sey. It is essentially help we want to that as a member of the Cripples' relieve unemployment. League in the Isle of Man. There is a need for physiotherapy in Ramsey and Mr Canister: The hon. member of the it is not only confined to Douglas for Council, Mr McFee, has said most of you want to have a centre elsewhere what I would say. It may be con- and not make everyone come to Dou- sidered desirable to have hospital glas. If you are to have the principle services in Ramsey but I do think the of physiotherapy in other parts of the whole trend in the Island to-day Island, you should have it in the south should be for centralisation of services as well, as was-originally intended, just and not duplication of them. It could

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 311

probably lead to specialists and the more often they think about it, the specialists' services being duplicated more they will realise that this is and be tremendously costly. As the necessary. With regard to the question hon. member of the Council has said, of construction — Mr Nivison spoke in the big cities of England the distance about the temporary nature of the of 16 mile; from Ramsey to Douglas is premises—I can assure the Court that nothing. It seems to be a question of they will be in the best of keeping with mianey for everything else except this. the appearance of the buildings. The believe the services at Ramsey are Health Services Board are suffering be- quite good. They may not be as good cause they have to spend large sums of as they could be but I can think of more money on buildings which may be 50. distressing things — housing, for in- 60 and 100 years old and are so solidly stance. I went into a house recently built that they cannot afford to knock which was occupied by a young couple them down although. they may have with three children. They had two outlived their usefulness in that form rooms on the ground floor and the other of construction. These buildings will floor was. rotten and they could not last 40 or 50 years and by then mem- walk over it. They were paying £2 a bers sitting in this chamber will be glad week. There are 10 houses in Douglas to have something fresh to work on which are under eviction orders and when they seek to put up new buildings there are many more which have been to meet modern requirements- The old condemned. We are told there is •no Ballarnona building should be razed to money to erriploy people and it is very the ground, for instance. There is no distressing but no question was raised point, in erecting a building which will this morning as to where the money is last for 100 years when. in 50 years' to come from for this. It has been said time, you will be wishing it was not they are not even prepared to use their there. As to its necessity, I should endowments for this. I feel that this point out that this is not a new develop- is an extravagant move and I think merit. The Ramsey Cottage Hospital hon. members should think twice about was a building which was endowed by it. I note that the chairman, deputy- people in the north of the Island and chairman and another member of the other parts of the Island and goes back Board are all northsicle members of the a long way in its foundations and Keys and this area has strong repre- associations. I am not against moving sentation • in the House. To spend forward but we do acknowledge that £46,000 without realising the endow- we have some responsibility to those "Thents Of the' hospital when there are who went before and what they did. other separate needs for spending seenis The people who founded RamseS, Cot- to me to be wrong. This idea of tage Hospital did start.something very Centralisation !Mist be adhered to in worthwhile and this scheme we have hospital work. 'instead of employing before us to-day is not for something More Speecialists 'and duplicating the new—it is to bring the hospital accom- Cost, I think we • should centralise in modation and services provided there Noble's Hospital' and make it the last up-to-date and more in keeping with Word in hospital services. The waiting the conditions expected by the medical conditions at Noble's Hospital, for in- profession and for the benefit of 'stance, are a disgrace to us and have patients. Hon, members will appreci- been for many years. ate that 30 beds 'in a hospital would cost a large amount of capital to con- Mr H. H. Radcliffe: In support of the struct. We have a definite asset there. resolution, I wouid like to say • that as This £46,000 will be money well spent. Mr..Callister suggests. I hope hon. mem- Th 2 services there are not new • but bers will think twice about it because they are being brought up-to-date. .We

Alterations to Ramsey.•Cottage.Hospital Approved. 312 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963

have had physiotherapy but it was in information about the work of the a private house and is not suitable and hospital and also a lot of interesting the position now is that accommodation information about these securities. has to be provided elsewhere. If hon. The Finance Board had no previous members visited the hospital, they knowledge of it but I would like the would appreciate that things have to acting-chairman of the Board to make be changed as to conditions. To the it quite clear if they are transferring staff dining-room, for instance, young these securities or not. I think the nurses have to carry plates upstairs Acting-Speaker seemed to have some and round a corner to a small room. reservations on it. It was stated that It is reminiscent of the 1880's. The the market value in 1961 was about outpatients' conditions are not satis- £30,000 but what is the value now? factory and neither is that of the matron and the doctors. The doctors Mr Bolton: I think it is-a point of will take someone into a room with a order to raise this matter — a debate table and someone will go across to the takes place on a proposal without X-ray room and that sort of thing. sufficient information being given as to There is no proper accommodation for cost and appears to be a muddle even doctors to receive outpatients. I hope in the minds of the Finance Board. If hon. members will support the resolu- the information is given subsequently, tion. when the chairman of the Board replies, it does not give anyone the Mr Bolton: I am not sure that the opportunity to make any changes which Acting-Speaker has given us proper they could have initiated if the in- information of the finances of this formation had been given at the proper scheme or the amount to be spent. He time. I think the Court should have said in his statement:— all the information before it before the debate, otherwise we may be talking A sum of £48.000 was included in the about it without realising the position Board's capital estimate for the current financial year; but as it ai)pears to be un- and then cannot move an amendment. likely that payments will be made before the I think in this case the chairman let April. 1965, it is considered that this pro- should be given' the opportunity now vision should be repeated in the estimate for to give the information as to what is the ensuing financial year. The Hospitai Trustees have expressed their willingness to the position. transfer securities of a market value in 1961 of approximately 30,1180 to the Government The Governor: I am prepared to give towards this scheme. the chairman that opportunity to ex- plain the background fully if the Court Is the amount of £46,000 the total agrees. amount or is it £76,000? Does the amount of £46,000 include the £30,000 The Acting-Speaker: This question of in securities? what the trustees of Ramsey Cottage Hospital were prepared to give was The Acting-Speaker: The amount re- raised two years ago. They were deter- quired is on the agenda—£46,000. mined to get something done to do away Mr Bolton: Then the total amount is with the shacking conditions which £'76,000? obtained. The hospital has been there 60 odd years and I hope it will remain The Acting-Speaker: No, the total _CD!. another GO years—as I am sure it amount is £46,000. will—and this is part and parcel of a scheme for improving the place-- Mr Stephen: This scheme was con- sidered in May by the Finance Board Mr Bolton: I think the hon. member and approved at an estimated cost of. was asked for specific information £46,000. But a day or two ago we had about the cost.

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital Approved. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10„ 1963 313

The Acting-Speaker: I am going to Mr Kelly: There is one item I have justify it now. overlooked. At the present time the hospital is in receipt of £50 per week Mr Bolton: The hon. member was which goes towards the upkeep of the supposed to justify it when he moved hospital and is included in the receipts. the resolution in the first place. It is part and parcel of it. It is interest from those investments and is put in Mr Stephen: Is this scheme going to our accounts. cost us £46000 or £16,000? Mr Bolton: I don't want to make a bear garden out of Tynwald Court, The Acting-Speaker: That has been Your Excellency, but surely the Health sorted out by the Finance Board. The Services Board have made their minds trustees offered the securities which up whether they want £50 per week or were valued at £30,000 or £31.000 in £30.000 or have they come to Tynwald 1961. It was worked out by a banker with a half-hatched scheme? If so, then for us. I think they should take it back until they have made their minds up. Surely Mr Bolton: And are we getting it? the deputy-chairman should be able to tell us what conclusions they came to? Mr Kelly: They have offered it to us. Instead we are expected to stay here The whole scheme is £46,370. That is this afternoon and make his mind up the total cost of it, £46,370. for him.

Mr Callister: Will the deputy-chair- Mr Kelly: That is unfair. It is a man please tell us whether the trustees scandal to say that, of Ramsey Cottage Hospital have de- Mr Bolton: It is not unfair. He has cided and will transfer to Government not disclosed the total cost to Govern- these securities of £30.000? inmt. He states that the tr.„.1e.es are willing to give Government £30,000 Mr Kelly:: If they are required by and then goes on to say, "Don't take the Isle of Man Government. the that, it brings in £50 per week." I am answer is yes. I happen to be one of not prepared to vote for this resolution the trustees. white it is. framed in this way. What is th.e proposal before us? What are Mr Bolton: If the position is as the we voting for? I am prepared to sup- hon. Acting-Speaker has said and they port it provided I know what I am have a nominal value of £67,000 and doing. are in actual fact worth an estimated £.30.000 — it may be more— and if the Mr Kelly: I am here deputising to- total expenditure is estimated to be day and I hope I am not going to be £46,000, it becomes quite apparent victimised. 1 thought this matter had that Government's contribution won't all been settled with the Finance Board exceed £16.000. If that is so, then I and as far as the contribution and cannot see any earthly reason why we investments are concerned, I thought it should give consent to borrowing for had all been settled. £46,000. If the resolution had said £20,000. I could have understood it. Mr H. H. Radcliffe: May I offer a I therefore suggest that the resolution word of explanation, Your Excellency? be amended so that sub-section (2) I resent most strongly the suggestion says "not exceeding £20,000.- We that the Health Services Board didn't would then agree to the full £.46,000 know where they were going. This has being spent but would limit the been under discussion time after time Government's liability to £20.000. at the Ramsey Cottage Hospital and

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hosoita4. Approved. 314 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 19133 the Health Services Board. This would interval, when the treasurer, the have come before the Court before if Finance Board, and the deputy-chair- it had not been for the suggestion that man of the Health Services Board can Cronk Ruagh should be used as a Field perhaps get together and sort it out. Studies Centre. At that time it was It is a very complicated issue. made quite clear and they then under- Mr McFee: I would like to move an stood that the Ramsey Cottage Hos- amendment, Your Excellency, that this pital had certain money avai'able for be referred back to the Health Services extensions. The Health Services Board Board and the Social Services Board. was not anxious to give up Crook The Court agreed to defer the matter Ruagh in view of the scarcity of beds until after the tea interval. in the Island, The agreement was that the money should be made available to the Cottage Hospital. The Field Studies DUTIES OF CUSTOMS—RESOLUTION Centre did not materialise and now the - APPROVED Crook Ruagh building, with its 30 beds, is still available. It was clearly under- The Governor: Item 7, duties of stood as far as this money is concerned customs. I call on the learned Attorney- that there was a sum of £46,000 in- General. cluded in the estimates and we were The Attorney-General: I beg to move given the go-ahead. The work involved the resolution standing in my name:— will cost £46,300. The Health Services That the following Order made by His Ex- Board understood this question of the cellency the Lieutenant-Governor under the investments would be ironed out by the provisions of the customs (Isle of Man) Act, Finance Board. We know we are giv- 1959. be nd the same is hereby approved— ing up revenue. I hope the Court won't The Anti-Dumping Duty (Isle of Man! hold it up. Order, 1963 (Revocation) Order. 1963. (Gov- ernment Circular N. 101/63). Mr Bolton: It is not--- I think that everything to which this order relates is clearly set out in the Mr H. H. Radcliffe: Mr Bolton has been on his feet at least eight times. recitals of the order, so clearly that I He has had enough to say. (Laughter.) feel I need not refer to it any more, and accordingly I move the resolution. Mr Quayle: Five times, actually. (Re- Deemster Kneale seconded and the newed laughter.) resolution was agreed. Mr H. H. Radcliffe: Well, five times. The trustees have stated that these investments would be made available WITNESSES' ALLOWANCES to the Government as Government RESOLUTION APPROVED require. It is binding by resolution on The Governor: Item 8, witnesses' the agenda in May. allowances. I call on the learned Mr Bolton: The Court is being misled. Attorney-General. Can I read what it says on the memo- The Attorney-General: I beg to move randum? the resolution standing in my name:— That the Witnesses Allowances Order. 1963, Mr H. H. Radcliffe: It was left to the made by His Excellency the Lieutenant- Finance Board to say-- Governor on the 28th October. 1963, under Section 20 of the Criminal Cade Amendment The Governor: It seems to me there Act. 1921. Section 1 of the Constables' Fees is some confusion in regard to the and Witnesses' Allowances Act. 1947, Section 4 of the Costs in Criminal Cases Act. 1947. money side of this vote. I suggest we and Section 2 of the Inquests of Death Act. defer this item until after the tea 1960. be and the same is hereby approved.

Duties of Customs—Resolution Approved.—Witnesses' Allowances—Resolution Approved. TYNWALD COURT. DECEMBER 10„ 1963 315

Mr Stephen seconded and the resolu- FOOD AND DRUGS ACT—'ORDER tion was agreed. APPROVED The Governor: Item 10, the Food and ••Drugs Act, 1963. I call on the learned SHOP HOURS ACT—ORDER 'Attorney-General, APPROVED The Attorney-General: I beg to move The Governor: Item 9, Shop Hours the resolution standing in My name:— Acts, 1953 and 1962. I- again call on the That the Public Analyst's. Qualifications Regulations, 1964, made by "Hg' Excellency learned Attorney-General. the Lieutenant-Governor on. the 26th Nov- Members: Agreed. ember. 1963, under the provisions of Section 49 of the Food and Drugs Act, 1963. be and The Attorney-General: I wish all my the same are hereby approved. work was as simple as this. (Laughter.) Section 40 of the Food and Drugs Act Deernster Kneale: Be careful! requires that d public analyst should have such qualifications as His Excel- The Attorney-;General: I beg to move lency may, by 'order, prescribe. This the resolution standing in my name:— prescribes the same qualifications for a That the Shop Hours Acts (Town of Ram- public analyst in the Isle of Man as are .sey Funfairs) Order. 1963, made by His Ex- cellency the Lieutenant-Governor,on the 22nd required by the appropriate regula- November, 1963, under the provisions of tions in the United Kingdom. I beg to Section 13 (1) of the Shop Hours Act, 1953, move. be and the same is hereby approved. Mr Coupe seconded and the resolu- I would like to remind hon members tion was agreed. that the Shop Hours Act, 1953, applies to amusement resorts and funfairs as CIVIL DEFENCE COMMISSION— though they were ordinary. shops. It MR CORKISH RE-APPOINTED means that amusement resorts have to • CHAIRMAN close at 6 p.m. on Monday. Tuesday The Governor: Item 13, to elect a and Wednesday, at 7 p.m. on Thursday. chairman of the Civil Defence Commis- at 8 p.m. on Friday and 9 p.m. on-Satur- sion (being a member of Tynwald) for day, which is not a satisfactory state a term of three years expiring On the of affairs for a tourist resort in the 30th November. 196.6. t The present summer. His Excellency can, however, chairman is Mi: Corkish and the Selec- if he is satisfied that two-thifdS 'of the tion Committee, after consultation with occupiers of any particidar Class of me,' have recommended the appoint- shops in a local authority district desire ment of Mr Corkish. I will call on the a variation of their closing hours, make chairman of the Selection Committee. an order accordingly, The ProPrietors Sir Ralph Stevenson: There is no need of a funfair in Ramsey have made to extol thd virtues of Mr COrkish to application to His Excellency and His the Court and I hope he Will have no Excellency has accordingly Made an opposition as Chairman. order. _ • The Governor: In the absence of Mr Callister: What about Sundays? other nominations, I declare Mr Corkish The Attorney-General: On Sundays elected as chairman. they are closed.. • • CIVIL DEFENCE COMMISSION- Mr Kelly: What is two-thirds of one . MEMBERS APPOINTED in a district? The Governor: Item. 14, gentlemen. The Attorney - General: Two I call on the chairman'of the Selection (Laughter.) I understand :that two- Committee. thirds of one is Iwo-thirds., • -Sir Ralph Stevenson: Your- Excel- Mr Coupe seconded and the resolu- lency. we have to elect the members of tion was agreed. the Civil Defence Commission (of whom

Shop Hours Act—Order Approved.—Food and Drugs Act—Order Approved.— Civil Defence Commission—Mr Corkish Re-appointed Chairman.—Civil Defence Commission—Members Appointed. 316 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10. 1963 at least one shall be a member of Tyriz the Court and afterwards we will wald) for a term of three years expir- resume business when Sir Henry Sug- ing on the 30th November, 1966. The den, the hon. and gallant member for preSent members are Sir Henry Sugden, Ramsey, will address us on hi recent M.H,K., Mr T. E. Cowell, Mr J. C. Far- visit to Malaysia. Harrison gher, Mr J. R. Gelling, mr The Court adjourned for tea and Quirk and Mr R. L. Lamming, F.R.C.S., resumed a few minutes later. and the Selection Committee suggest that the commission should be re- elected in toto and we hope this will be ALTERATIONS TO RAMSEY supported. COTTAGE HOSPITAL—DEBATE Mr Macleod: Your Excellency, may I RESUMED ask-- The Governor: Well, gentlemen, we will now resume the adjourned debate The Governor: I am afraid I must on item 6. Do I understand that the rule the hon. member out of order as chairman of the Finance Board would this cannot be debated. be prepared to address the Court to The appointment of the proposed explain the financial implications? - members was agreed. Mr Stephen: Two minutes ago I would have said "yes", Your Excellency, but there is a figure missing and the ISLE OF MAN POLICE BOARD— treasurer has just gone out to try and ELECTION OF ONE MEMBER find it out from the Health Services The Governor: Item 15, gentlemen. Board. Unfortunately he has taken call on the chairman of the Selection my brief with him. Committee. Mr Bolton: Could not the chairman Sir Ralph Stevenson: We have to put the amendment or whatever it is elect one member in the place of Mr before us? T. H. Colebourn, resigned. The Selec- Mr Stephen: The idea is that securi- tion Committee have recommended Mr ties to the value of so and so be trans- T. A. Coale. The other members of the ferred to the Isle of Man Government Isle of Man Police Board are Mr W. B. free of cost to the hospital trustees. It Kaneen (chairman), Mr J. B. Bolton, will go in as a proviso to part 2 of the Mr T. E, )3rownsdon and Mr G. C. resolution as printed, enabling borrow- Madge. The Selection Committee hope ing of £46.000 to be made providing the Court will accept this nomination. that securities of a nominal value of so Your Excellency. Mr Coole is a man and so be transferred to the Isle of Man who has done a great deal in this work Government free of cost. That is the already and we all know him. effect of the amendment. Mr Coupe seconded. Mr Gale: The resolution before us Mr J. M. Cain: Your Excellency, I gives me a lot to think about. If this would like to propose the name of Mr is the policy Government is going to- Creer. pursue to have the Cottage Hospital in Mr Gale: Is no one in the Demo- Ramsey extended to make it more up- cratic Party going to support him? to-date, then that is for Government to Mr Quayle seconded. (Laughter.) decide. But I am wondering whether we are on the wrong road here. Are A ballot was then taken and resulted: we to centralise our services on the Mr Coole, 21 votes; Mr Creer, El votes. Island or have them sited all over the Mr Coale was declared elected. Island? That is the point to be decided. The Governor: Gentlemen, I under- Mr Kelly has stated they are to have stand tea is now ready. I will adjourn specialists there and that will put the

Isle of Man Police Board—Election of One Member. —Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital—Debate Resumed. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 317

health services costs higher and higher. Mr• Bolton: I wish to speak on the Are we to allow our sympathy to rule amendment, Your Excellency. If it has our minds? I am afraid we are liable been moved, I would like to second it. to do that.. Only at the present time Mr Stephen: I only formally moved we are discussing with the Local it. Government Board the amalgamation of our water services,, electricity ser- Mr Farrant: Please, we have not even vices and so on. I believe the Acting- heard it yet. Speaker, Mr Kelly, would be wise to The Governor: The amendment which withdraw this resolution and come back I took down contained the proviso, with a different view. Why do I say "provided that securities of a nominal that? Only this week I was at Noble's value to be agreed (but with a market Hospital sitting in a draughty and un- value of not less than £30,000 at the comfortable waiting-room—and that has time of transfer) be tranSferred to the gone on for years and years. The hon. Isle of Man Government by the trustees member of the Council, Mr 1VIcFee, is of the Ramsey Cottage Hospital free of quite right in his views, I think. We any charge to the said trustees." should take first things first, in their proper order. I wish this scheme at Mr Stephen: That is the effect of it. Ramsey was really necessary. All I would make it clear, Your Excellency, chairmen of Government Boards have that the Finance Board were not aware had a directive from the Finance Board of the offer by the trustees. All we asking us to be careful, careful and were aware of was the application by careful. What worries me at the the Health Services Board for a scheme moment is whether I will vote for this costing £46,000. It was only last night or not. It all depends on the reply of that I learned that there was this offer the Aoting-Speaker, the deputy-chair- from the trustees. We have been man of the Health Services Board. Is caught unawares. However,. I do think it necessary for us as Government to that the amendment which has now renew Ramsey Cottage Hospital for the been drafted should meet the desire of sole purpose and use of the people of the Court and enable this very essential the north of the Island? We are an work to be put in hand. island of 227 square miles with a popu- Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I would lation to-day of less than it was 100 like to second that and, in doing so, I years ago. I hope we are not going to would point out to the Court that the embark on something we will be sorry securities to be transferred to the for. What has come out here this Finance Board may be, in the view of afternoon in debate is that there are that Board, worth more as a means of investments held by the trustees of the providing an income rather than being hospital which are worth £30,000 and realised for spending on the hospital. which bring in £50 per week—which is In consequence I think it would be being paid out for everyday expenses. desirable that the borrowing powers It all boils down to a question of proposed in this resolution should be borrowing £16,000. Where is that left at £46,000 so the Finance Board going to come in? I think we should can decide whether to use the securities have second thoughts but I am pre- as capital to finance the scheme or as pared to say to the Acting-Speaker that a source of income. I entirely agree I will support this providing that his with the proviso and the amendment to answers coincide with my views. If the resolution and I shall support it not,,I will not. Before sitting down, Your Excellency, The Governor: Gentlemen, are you I was considerably distracted from the prepared to set aside the Standing question of this resolution .by this ques- Orders of the Court to allow Mr Bolton tion of securities that I did not really to speak? express my views on the scheme itself.

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital—Debate Resumed. 318 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963

I would like to take this opportunity of 1.000 X-rays a year, too. Other things painting out to the hon. member for 1 noticed were that they had no Peel. Mr Gale, that there is already a 'recovery room in whieh a patient just nospital in Ramsey.- And '1 believe that 'brought out of the operating theatre having a hospital there„ we must try to can recover before going back to the make it an efIective one. it is said ward. The kitchen is too small as well that it is going to cost more Co provide although they prepare some 700 meals the services in Ramsey but we must a week theie. There is only a small bear in mind that those who require cupboard there for them to keep their treatment in Ramsey have to have their equipment and it is - entirely in- expenses paid to come, to Douglas so adequate. Because of the space avail- there will be some saving of expense if able, the hospital can only buy sinall' their treatment is in- Ramsey. This quantities of goods and the price is does not involve the building of a new therefore much dearer. Yet despite' all nospital Which would be involved in the facts I have just set out, the average Peel or the south of the Island. All we cost of a patient in the hospital only are trying to do is to make the Cottage works out at £21 a week against an Hospital effective and I do believe it average cost at Noblee'S of £24 10s to should be supported. My only criti- £25. cism is that the financial implications were not made clear and there seemed Mr Gale: You would expect that be- to he confusion as to 'the cost of the cause Noble's has the experts there, too. work. I believe, hewever, that the Mr Macleod: Ramsey has the experts amendment now proposed will clear as 'well. They are there every Tuesday that up." and Thursday. The best surgeons we have on the Island operate there. Mr Macleod: Your Excellency, I There is no question about experts. would like to say a few words in sup- With those few remarks, I beg to stip- port of the resolution. I have had ex- poit the resolution. perience on and offr the Island and have Mr J. M. Cain: After listening to the been to -see the hospital and gone address of the hon. member for Glen- through it. I realise, through this, that faba, I think that Ramsey Cottage Hos- these alterations are absolutely neces- pital must be very well equipped to sary. There is no question about that. carry out all the services it is doing. It may be said. that Noble's has a cold, He talked about 5,000 patients and 700 draughty waiting-room. 'That is true meals. and I am sure that the management committee there is trying to get the Mr Macleod: It is not well equipped position .rectified .in due course. But at all. Why don't you go and look at at Ramsey they deal with an .average it? of about 5,000 outpatients every year Mr J. M. Cain: I have been a patient and yet they have only a small, tiny, in it. (Laughter.) I want to say that waiting-room which is not big enough after all the hubbub over the £46,000 in which to swing a ,cat. . and the £16,000, I think the deputy- Mr Gale: Five thousand outpatients chairman seems to have done very well for a small population of 4,000? because the £30,000 is to stay in .Government coffers. Frankly I don't Mr H. H. Radcliffe: It Serves an area see why we have been wasting the time from Maughold to Michael as well, you of the Court. There is no doubt about know. . it in my mind that the only thing Mr Macleod: Those are the facts I arising out of this debate was put for- have ascertained by taking the trouble ward by the hon. member of the Coun- to go to Ramsey—something which the cil, Mr MeFee„ whether we are to hon. member didn't do. They do about centralise our hospital services or sup-

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital---Debate Resumed. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963 319 port the two different set-ups. I have port this hospital and support this a great deal of sympathy with Ramsey amendment which I understand the and the north—and the hospital serves hon. mover is prepared to accept. I a district from the Point of Ayre to feel very strongly that the sick and Kirk Michael with a population which, infirm are priority and the Ramsey I suppose, is in the region of 8,000 Cottage Hospital has been providing people. I must say I sympathise with for many years this service in the Mr McFee, especially in one respect— north. I have the greatest admiration and that is with respect to a particular for Noble's but it is a very long dis- problem which comes to us in Tynwald tance from Ramsey to Noble's Hospital. month after month—one set scheme and especially in emergency cases. When no priorities. There is no planning for I sat in the seat of the hon. member for the Island and I am still concerned that Ay e,. Mr Kerruish, many years ago, I we are frittering our money away with- raised the question of providing mater- out planning for the whole Island. I nity facilities at the Ramsey hospital. have been on about this but it does not (Laughter.) Hon. members seemed a seem to get anywhere. We have very little surprised but I would like to sup- forceful people in authority. I see port the hon. member, Sir Henry Sug- these schemes come forward time and den, that should be taken into con- again. I would give you one word now sideration because anyone living in —the next scheme may very well be Ramsey will realise there is a long win- the development of Laxey. (Laughter.) ter ahead. (Laughter.) Winter is a Mr P. Radcliffe: 1, too, was going to long time and it is a long way to Dou- refer to the outpatients' department at glas. It is uphill and our roads are Ramsey Cottage Hospital, Your Excel- very hazardous with ice and snow and lency. Like the hon. member for Glen- there are occasions—I ought to know, I faba, I have checked up on those am chait man of the Highway Board figures. Very excellent work is being (laughter)—and I have heard of occa- done by the matron and staff under sions when maternity cases have been truly difficult conditions. As a new rushed to Douglas but have been un- member, I could see through this at the able to get through. I think there is a very beginning and I am glad that Mr point there which should be considered. Bolton came round to it. Finally,. I I will heartily support this resolution hope the Court will support this. We because I feel it is in the interests of should help and maintain the hospital the Island generally and will help in every way we can. relieve pressure as well as solve the Mr Farrant: May it please. Your Ex- problem in Ramsey. cellency, before I say anything myself, Mr Kneale: I am supporting the may I offer congratulations to the hon. resolution but I would like to make member for Ayre, Mr Radcliffe, on his reference to the construction. It is a maiden speech this afternoon? pity the Health Services Board did not Members: Hear, hear. come to the Planning Committee for Mr Farrant: If he carries on in that planning approval before coming be- way and is that short, he will be a very fore the Court. I want them to be welcome man. (Laughter.) I am not quite clear that they still need planning going to take up very much time. I approval. Cedarwood is still under only want to say this, however many suspicion in the Island and the Planning times the hon member of the Council, Committee are not anxious to see that, Mr Bolton, jumped up—whether it was any construction that goes up won't be five or eight times—it was well worth down in a few years' time because of it. Because when he finally spoke, he the climatic conditions in the Island. summed up the whole position in very We have gone to considerable trouble few words. I thought he did it very to inquire into this problem and no well indeed.. I think we should sup- manufacturer could give us a definite

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital—Debate Resumed. 320 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10. 1963 assurance that their buildings could are a small island but that is not to say stand up to the climatic conditions of that England does not possess a long the Isle of Man. Up to now we have coastline, the immediate vicinity of not had a single manufacturer to which has similar weather to our own. guarantee his products will stand up It seems that the Planning Committee to the conditions experienced in the has an apparent pre-disposition to dis- Island. There are various types of oils agree with anything not traditional. I and dyes but whereas some of these am wondering if we, in our own little substances stand up to the weather, way, presume to know better than they attract insects which eat them people in England who have had ex- away. Mr Cain referred to a cedar- perience in matters of this kind. I wood building to-day which has stood hope what we have heard to-day from for many years but he was referring to the three members of the Planning a different type from the one we are Committee is not an indication that considering to-day. those who wish to use more modern Mr Simcocks: I would like to support methods of building won't be made to this resolution to-day, Your Excellency, cling to the traditional 'methods. particularly in the form in which the Mr McFee: I was referring to the chairman of the Finance Board has new building sbye-laws. amended it. There is., of course, a Mr Sirricocks: That is why I used the great deal of truth in what the chair- expression "ominous„" man of the Local Government Board Mr Creer: I rise to support the resolu- said with regard to planning but surely tion as amended but I am very con- what he has to say should be regarded cerned—being a member of the Health as applying to a new building? Here Services Board — about some of the we have, as has been said, an existing things that have been stated to-day, hospital in Ramsey. Surely the issue When we were first asked to alter bafere the Court to-day is quite simple Ramsey Cottage Hospital, we did know —if we are going to keep the hospital it was to cost large sums of money. there, then these facilities ought to be provided and the hospital brought up- The Acting-Speaker: £100,000! to-date. If we are not prepared to do Mr Creer At that particular time it that, we should pull it down and so was going to cost us over £150,000. have no hospital in Ramsey. I take it What concerns me to-day, Your Excel- from what the hon. chairman of the lency,. is that we have come here asking Local Government Board and Mr Gale, for only £46,000 and yet we hear the the hon. member for Peel, have said, hon. member for West Douglas saying that the logical conclusion to be drawn what the Planning Committee may do. from failing to support this resolution I hope it is not a threat that when is that the hon. members would prefer Viese plans come before the Local to have the Ramsey Cottage Hospital Government Board they will be thrown demolished. There was also ominous out, because if that does happen, we mutterings from the three members of will have to come back here and ask the Planning Committee of the Local for another £46,000 and maybe more to Government Board. It seems to me we build the place in stone. It isn't neces- have an opportunity to encourage in the sary, you know. The Jurby huts have Island a new form of building construc- been there since 1938 and are still in tion which is cheaper and quicker than very good condition. Later on we hope traditional methods. I know that dur- to come forward with plans for Balla- ing the recent visit to the Island of the mona Hospital of the same type and I Home Secretary, he produced a hope the Planning Committee will not brochure of constructions of this type try to carry out their threats. of house which had met with great The Acting-Speaker: Your Excellency, success in England. Admittedly we I am very glad indeed that many of the

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital—Debate Resumed. TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10- 1963 321 members of the Court are delighted to is one of the ideas of the health services. support this resolution. Let me say at There are others too. Who knows? In once that the Cottage Hospital is 10 years' time we may have one health fuhctioning every week of the year with centre for Douglas, one for Ramsey and specialists from Douglas. We have the one for other parts too, where all the doctors have their surgeries. That is best surgical men . and everyone of coming quickly, you know. The ques- consequence in the medical world in the tion of money, however, does come into Island works at the Cottage Hospital as this. Now I have been associated with well as Noble's. Very serious opera- the health services since they started tions take place there so there is no here. I was on the Board when it was question of having to provide any more appointed in 1949 and since then this specialists there although we will have Court has not hesitated to back us. to bring in a physiotherapist. In one This Court did not hesitate at £250,000 ease, Your Excellency, an elderly lady for Noble's Hospital some time ago and who has to have regular treatment now another £100,090 bill is facing us every week and who cannot travel by for a new X-ray and dispensary depart- bus has to travel by taxi every week to ment which will have to be provided Douglas. There are others who have eventually. It will all have to be done to have regular treatment, otherwise ultimately but we cannot do all the they will be paralysed for life — and I work at once. The learned Deemster don't think anyone wants that. So far has been to Ballamona and seen the as construction is concerned, we have difficulties we have there and he has at the present time in the big scheme suggested that we should raze it to the we have at the Victoria Pier, a building ground and build a new place. That, made of cedarwood. That is the tram however, would cost us something like shelter and it is as good now as when 22,500,000. If we could get some of it was put up a couple of years ago. those huts at the R.A.F. Station at At K.nockaloe they are still in good con- Jurby, they would be ideal with the dition and there are other buildings in W.A.A.F.'s (Laughter.) Sorry, Your other parts of the Island still in use too. Excellency, that was a slip of the The hon. member, Mr Creer, is a builder tongue! They would be perfect for and he knows he would not have dared what we need. They have a beautiful to come before this Court for the Cot- finish and if we could have six of these tage Hospital schema to be done in there, which we hope, we could save traditional methods. It is costing us the Government thousands and thou- thousands and thousands less because sands of pounds. Your Excellency, I we plan to do it in wood. Your Excel- can assure Mr McFee from the bottom lency, I can assure my hon. and gallant of my heart that in the course of time— colleague, Sir Henry, that we have an if I live long enough — it will be my emergency maternity service at the ambition to get these services to look hospital and babies have been born after people in other parts of the there. Last year when the snow was Island, 1 am very glad, Your Excel- on the ground. Ramsey was isolated and lency, to hear Mr Nivison say there is it was an advantage to have a hospital a very close co-operation between the there. When it was first built there. I Board of Social Services and the Health suppose that w.as one of the reasons for Services Board and I am sure he will it. Mr McFee has asked whether it is give us help. Finally, I have been our intention to develop the health ser- here a long time, Your Excellency, and vices in other parts of the Island. it is lovely to think to-day that both my Certainly that is our intention. It hon. friend, Mr Bolton, and myself would be a good thing if we could have have had our say--he has had his and clinics in Peel and the south of the mine and we are both wanting the Island. Certainly we will do it. That thing done.

Alterations to Ramsey Cottage Hospital—Debate Resumed. 322 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10. 1963

The resolution was carried. countries represented at the conference Sir Henry Sugden addressed the because they spread throughout the Court on conference of Commonwealth world. It was a revelation to me as I Parliamentary Association. had not seen it set out like this before. There was a spontaneous welcome for COMMONWEALTH PARLIAMENT- everyone to the conference and there ARY ASSOCIATION — REPORT BY was the same welcome everywhere we . SIR HENRY SUGDEN went. We were entertained and ex- The Governor: Before I formally ad- tremely well looked after. For the pre- journ the Court, gentlemen, I will now conference tours we were split up into call on the hon. and gallant member for four parties which went on separate Ramsey, Sir Henry Sugden. who will routes but covered more or less the address us with reference to his recent_ same things. On these tours we were visit to Malaysia for the conference of shown rubber plantations and research the Commonwealth Parliamentary institutions and tin mines which are Association. the commodities on which the main. ' Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, wealth of the country depends. In addi- I am indeed grateful to you and the tion, we were shown iron ore mines and hon. members of this Court for giving it was surprising to me to see the me this opportunity of telling you all amount of Japanese mOney which is about what was to me a memorable being invested in this particular pro- experience, enhanced possibly by the duct. There is no coal in Malaysia so Tact that the conference was held in a all the smelting of the ore is done in country which I had visited before Japan. What I think was of great in- although under different circumstances. terest—certainly to me—was the land Now;„ I have divided my report into development. That is going ahead three parts. First of all, the new very quickly indeed. They have a nation of Malaysia coupled with pre- system there of starting up new vil- conference tour; secondly, the con- lages and giving to each family which ference itself, and, thirdly, the settles there 12 acres of ground. Ten Commonwealth Parliamentary Associa- acres goes into rubber and the rest into tion. Your Excellency, in the space of fruit or whatever food is suitable in a day or so, 121 delegates and staff re- that vicinity. Land development and presenting 66 Commonwealth parlia- other development is very _well or- ments arrived in Kuala Lumpur. Be- ganised indeed from the central opera- tween them, they represented 37 tions office in the capital, Kuala Lum- nations, as most of the States in Aus- pur. I could not help feeling but that tralia and Canada were there, three it was run on military lines. There from Nigeria and one from the United are maps showing all types of develop- Kingdom, namely Northern Ireland. I ment at the office and the Minister arrived in the evening and my welcome concerned can go in there and find out was absolutely typical. It was a very anything he wants to know in the mat- friendly welcome, a sincere welcome ter of a, minute or so. A similar and delightful. I was taken to an ex- operations room is sited in the capital cellent hotel, shown to a very good room of every state. They are more or less which was air-conditioned and then, identical except each will deal only before I knew where I was, a large glass with the development of the particular of whisky and soda was in my hands state concerned. The result is that the and I was given a very large pile of Minister can go to any state and paper. My one regret, Your Excellency. appreciate exactly and quickly what is is that I cannot hand round a map of happening in that particular state. the world with which we were issued We saw, in particular, the new town showing all of the Commonwealth which has been started just outside

Commonwealth Parliamentary Association—Report by Sir Henry Sugden. TY.NWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, l063 323

Kuala Lumpur. Work began on the they are now able to produce rubber site three or four years ago. It now more cheaply than the synthetic pro- has 37 factories operating and a popu- duct can be produced. They have done lation of over 15,000. The town plan- this by getting the rubber trees to yield ning is extremely well done throughout in from five or six years instead of 11. the country. It is zoned and no re- or 12 years as formally. In most places development is allowed to take place and in all sorts of development, the until a particular zone plan has been country — since the emergency — has got out for each particular locality. really rushed forward. Whether or not We saw a number of schools and uni- it is being done too lightheartedly or versities of great interest. The only whether or not there is too much comment I would make is that they are - emphasis on non-productive buildings, going ahead with. education work very time alone will tell. For instance, in rapidly indeed but there is a goad deal Kuala Lumpur they have spent of confusion inasmuch as some of £2,000,000 on a new Parliament build- what they call university education, we ing, which we were privileged to be the in this country would call diploma or first to use. It was very clear,. I think, technical college standard. We saw a to everyone — although some were not goad deal of their old cultural life. I willing to admit it — the immense happened to be on the tour which was amount of good which British capital taken round the lesser developed part and initiative has done for the country, of the country on the east coast. The not only in the past but at the present population is almost entirely Malay. time. Now Malaysia—which is the new We saw one of their shadow plays, nation comprising what we used to call traditional dancing, and also were Malaya, Singapore, Borneo and Sara- privileged to see a Royal wedding. Our wak—is rather a complicated country trips were over quite considerable dis- because of the population, which is. tances and the roads were not up to comprised of Malays, Chinese and Highway Board standard. But I must Indians. The Malay population is say that the drivers impressed me. I actually only slightly more numerous don't think anyone could do a better job than the Chinese, with the Indians very of getting a bus through a gap with much in the minority. The Government only an inch to spare on either side. policy is to give preference to the They were expert at it. But for the Malays. For instance, in the Govern- final day of our tour, on the day be- ment service, particularly in the Army fore it was suggested that we might and the Civil Service, they insist on 75 like to go on a tour for 100 miles by per cent. of Malays. That at the bus. There was only one person in. the moment ,is working very well indeed. whole of our party who agreed. to go, All the large resettlement schemes are and that was your representative, but really in favour of the Malay side of the following morning spent bathing the population because they are largely on a delightful beach, I was most country people. The Chinese are the grateful I had been out-voted. What town people, the people with perhaps were the lessons of these tours? Well,. more initiative and more drive. Now I had seen the country myself six years as I say, at the moment it is going very ago while the emergency was still on. well indeed. But I think it will be in- The thing that struck me straight away teresting to see how long that this was that in many parts of the country, happy atmosphere will exist. They not all, immense strides forward have have been welded together somewhat been. made in all sorts of ways. Firstly, by the policy of confrontation by the in the development of the rubber in- Indonesians. That has kept them to- dustry. As a result of improved British gether. Another thing which I think techniques which have been introduced, may cause trouble for the country in

Commonwealth Parliamentary Association—Report by Sir Henry Sugden. 324 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963

the future is the infiltration of Indo- tician who, when he was called to order nesians. When I was there they were by the chairman at the end of 12i allowing the Indonesians to infiltrate minutes, asked for permission to finish. into Borneo and Sarawak without his sentence—and I have never before really making an immediate effort to heard a sentence lasting 9* minutes. get rid of them. If these people in- (Laughter.) During the conference we filtrate there, they will terrorise the were conferring for five-and-a-half to population as the Communists six hours a day, the building was air- terrorised the population in the years conditioned, but occasionally it broke after the war, up to 1957. It will then down and we were allowed to take our require an immense effort to get rid of jackets off. In the seven days of the them because when a population is conference I was required to attend six terrorised in that way, you get no in- dinners, five cocktail parties and three formation from them and it takes 300 official luncheons. It was altogether a soldiers to get rid of one terrorist. somewhat hectic programme. The first Although they have these difficulties subject — technical and financial co- which are confronting them, they are operation—went. off very quietly. What looking forward with great confidence came out of it was the vast contribution to the future. Now to come to the con- the U.K. is making in money alone. ference itself. The new Parliamentary About ,£.66.000,000 a year. They are also building which I have already men- providing a very large number of tioned was opened by the King on the teachers and skilled advice in many Saturday morning and we were privi- ways. One-tenth of the students in leged to be present at the opening. That British universities and technical col- was followed by the ceremony in the leges are students from Commonwealth chamber of the House of Representa- countries. In fact, theree is no compari- tives of swearing-in the new repre- son whatsoever between the effort we sentatives from Borneo, Singapore and are making, which, is immense, and the Sarawak—which with Malaya are the much-publicised efforts of the so-called four previous states which now make American peace corps. I think that up Malaysia. On the Monday we went what came out of that particular debate to the building to have our opening was it was very necessary for develop- session_ Outside it were an immense ing countries to make the fullest use of array of flags of all the parliaments of their trained men which at the present the Commonwealth Parliamentary time they are very obviously not doing. Association taking part. The Manx flag They are sending people to get a degree was, of course to the right of the line. in law or study engineering and some (Applause.) The conference dealt with do not go back. Others do and become three subjects:— Technical and educa- politicians. Another point which was tional co-operation: promotion and ex- made was the shortage of teachers. I pansion of trade: and international did suggest to the conference the possi- affairs and defence. We were told that bility of a scheme for the exchange of business would be conducted as if we teachers throughout all the nations of were in committee and that interrup- the Commonwealth and this did receive tions would be permitted — in fact, it attention, Your Excellency. I do know was almost hinted that they would be that some people are thinking about it appreciated. In the event, there were now. That debate finished with a very few indeed, except for one or certain amount of talk about the very two which I will mention later on. important subject of the very rapidly We were also told that each speaker increasing population of these countries would be confined to 10 minutes. and the urgent need for introducing That, on the whole,. worked very well birth control. The next subject for de- indeed, but there was one eloquent poli- bate was expansion of trade. Here, a

Commonwealth Parliamentary Association—Report by Sir Henry Sugden, TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10. 1963 325

few bricks started to get tossed from devote the monies spent on defence to side to side and throughout the con- direct aid to Commonwealth countries. ference there was a very free measure That, however, was eventually scotched. of talk. No one pulled any punches on Again we had the question of arms to either side—if there was any side. I South Africa. Then a representative think I can best illustrate what I mean from Pakistan got to his feet, voiced if I mention here an example. One of his opinion about India. There were the representatives from Singapore interruptions galore from the Indian suggested what .a good thing it would side and it very nearly developed into be if the U.K. paid back to Singapore a free-for-all. Fortunately, however, all the wealth they had taken out of it. we had a good chairman and he got It was perhaps useful that present at everything under control. The next the conference was the past Colonial day, though, the head of the Indian Secretary, who knew the history of delegation, who was a very able Singapore from the day that Raffles Speaker, had the final word on the arrived at what was then a tiny fishing matter! What were my personal im- .village. Be outlined very quickly pressions of the conference? As I have what the British had done for Singapore already hinted, I would say that it was and pointed out that if it had not been a little disturbing to note the poor for that far-sighted Englishman, Singa- quality of many of the representa- pore might not have existed at all. tives of the new nations. But to offset That, Your Excellency, was the kind of that, there was almost outstanding thing voiced by some of the representa- quality from some of their other repre- tives of the younger nations who had sentatives. There were some really not really read much on what had hap- outstanding speeches from practically pened in the- years gone by. During every African country. There was this debate on trade, there did arise a straight speaking all the time and I do very sore subject indeed and this was think that was a good thing. We were the supply of arms to South Africa encouraged by the chairman in. his which is, undoubtedly, I think, not opening address to say what we understood by some of the African thought — and that was what we did. nations. Some obviously did not wish Everything was, however, taken in an to understand it fully but it was extremely good nature. I would say thrashed out here and in foreign affairs. there was a very deep understanding What was indicative of the whole trend of the immense value of the Common- of the Commonwealth conference, Your wealth and this was certainly em- Excellency, was that the conference phasised by one member of the British concluded with the express wish to have delegation who put it in very moving a Commonwea'th Trade Fair, not so terms indeed. She had come from a much designed to encourage trade with- mining village in Scotland and had in the Commonwealth but rather to en- suffered all the hardships and bitterness courage trade by the Commonwealth as of the 20's. She looked back on that a whole with outside nations. A and then told the conference: "I have slogan which, I think, was adopted, was experienced bitternss but I never look "Trade, not aid." This. I think, ex- back. I look forward and to the good presses the over-riding unity within the which can come out of everyone work- Commonwealth, even though we have ing together." It was a remarkable one or two problems. The final sub- contribution to the conference and ject for debate at the conference. Your epitomised the whole sense of the con- Excellency, was international affairs" ference. Finally, Your Excellency, just and defence. That started off with very a few points about the Commonwealth airy-fairy platitudes on disarmament Paarliamentary Association itself. As and suggestions that the U.K. should I think we already know, the 1964 con-

Commonwealth Parliamentary Association—Report by Sir Henry Sugd en. 326 TYNWALD COURT, DECEMBER 10, 1963

ference will be in Jamaica and it was what confidence there is in Britain and stated by the representative of that we are having this influence parti- Jamaica at the conference that they cularly on the new members and mem- wre going to make arrangements with bers of the "young' nations attending other Caribbean countries, so far as this conference. We, of course, are one possible, to enable delegations going to of 'the oldest parts of the Common- Jamaica to visit some of the other wealth and I think it is pleasing to be countries on their way. In 1965 the a part of this development of. these conference will be in New Zealand and young nations. I am sure with the I think it is pretty definite that in 1967 fascinating address given by Sir Henry, the conference will be again in Canada. we will be able to follow the develop- The 1966 conference is by no means ment of the Federation of Malaysia settled but it was suggested by the with much greater interest than pos- representative for Northern Ireland sibly we could otherwise have done. that it should be there. Whether or not The meeting concluded. it can be held there is by no means certain for various reasons. In the course of the general meeting, the GOVERNOR'S CHRISTMAS WISHES representative from Aden put forward TO THE COURT a resolution which had the intention of putting more teeth into the conference. The Governor: I would like to take this opportunity to convey to you all In other words, to try and make Governments concerned pay greater and to your families, my best wishes for a merry Christmas and a very attention to any resolutions the con- happy and prosperous New Year. Tyn- ferences might pass. Everyone thought wald will now stand adjourned. it was probably a good idea but a few did sound warning notes. So many Tynwald then adjourned. amendments were put forward to get The Legislative Council withdrew at round some of the misgivings that it the adjournment of Tynwald and there was obviously impossible to deal with was a short meeting of the House of the resolution then. The subject will, Keys. therefore, probably come up for debate next year. Finally, Your Excellency, it was announced that there would be a HOUSE OF KEYS 20 per cent. increase in the subscrip- tions. On that low note I finish my The Acting-Speaker:' Hon. members report and in doing so I would like to will be aware that under our Standing express my gratitude to you all— Orders we meet for the last time on the everyone who allowed me to go on this third Tuesday of December and then expedition which, to me, was a most break up for Christmas until the second remarkable experience. Tuesday in January. I suggest that as we have so little business before the The Governor: I am sure that hon. House for next Tuesday, that — if the members will join with me in thanking House agrees—we might adjourn now Sir Henry sincerely for his extremely until the second Tuesday in January. interesting and informative address to Mr Gale moved that the House ad- the Court. It has been an extremely journ until the second Tuesday in well-organised conference which he January. This was seconded and attended and it gave him the oppor- a greed. tunity of seeing a country which he visited six years before. He was The Acting-Speaker: I would like to therefore able to compare the great wish you all the compliments of the advances which are being made. It is season. also very encouraging to hear from him The House adjourned.

Governor's Christmas Wishes to the Court.