REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT Douglas, Tuesday, February 20, 1968. Present: The Governor (Sir Peter BILLS FOR SIGNATURE Stallard, K.C.M.G., C.V.O., M.B.E.). In The Governor: Item 1—Bills for the Council: Deemster S. J. Kneale, Signature. The Riding Establishments C.B.E., the Attorney-General (Mr D. D. Bill has been withdrawn; hon. members Lay, T.D.), Sir Ralph Stevenson, have been circulated a letter explaining G.C.M.G., Messrs J. B. Bolton, J. H. why. Manx Time Bill; Falsification of Accounts Bill; Decimal Currency (Isle Nicholls, O.B.E., J. C. Nivison, C. C. of Man) Bill; Judgments (Reciprocal McFee, with Mr G. J. Bryan, C.M.G., Enforcement) (Isle of Man) Bill; C.V.O., 0.B.E., M.C., Government Secre- Weights and Measures (Metric System) tary and Clerk to the Council. In the Bill; Interpretation Bill. Keys: The ActIng-Speaker (Mr A. S. The Governor: Now if the Court will Kelly, J.P.), Messrs R. J. G. Anderson, agree, while these six Bills are being H. D. C. MacLeod, E. N. Crowe, R. E. S. signed, we will carry on with our ordi- Kerruish, P. Radcliffe, Miss J. C. C. nary business. Is that agreeable? Thornton-Duesbery, Messrs P. A. Spit- It was agreed. tall, W. E. Quayle, J. R. Creer, T. C. Faragher, A. H. Simcocks, G, T. Crellin, C. L. P. Vereker, J. E. Callister, J. A. MOTION TO SUSPEND STANDING Moore, T. A. Corkish, E. C. Irving, C. E. ORDERS TO INCLUDE SUPPLEMEN- Burke, G. V. H. Kneale, G. A. Devereau, TARY AGENDA—DEFEATED R. MacDonald, Sir- Henry Sugden, The Governor: In that case. if you C.B., D.S.O., with Mr T. E. Ker- will turn to the supplementary agenda, meen, Clerk to Tynwald. No. 1. I call upon the Attorney-General to move the suspension of Standing Orders. The Attorney-General: Your Excel- APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE lency, I beg to move the suspension of Standing Orders to enable the remain- The Governor: I have apologies for ing business on the supplementary absence from Mr. Speaker, whose eye agenda No. 1 to be considered. trouble is still with him, and I am sure The Governor: Is that agreed? the Court would wish a message to be sent hoping that it will be better soon. Mr Nivison: No, sir. I wish to object to the suspensiOn of Standing Orders I also understand that Mr Ffinlo Cork- and the practice of suspending Stand- hill has influenza, and I think we might ing Orders so readily. I understand, send him a message, too, if that is Your Excellency, that a meeting of this agreeable. hon. Court has been held since the last Apologies for Absence.—Bills for Signature.—'Motion to Suspend Standing Orders to include Supplementary Agenda—Defeated. 816 TYNWALD COURT, FEBRUARY 20, 196-8 constituted meeting. I say I understand Mr Kneale; I would second that, sir, because to date, 1, as a member of and support Mr Nivison. I am disgusted this Court, have no knowledge officially with the way this Bill has been handled of such a meeting taking place. I read right from the start. This Legislature in the local papers, I hear on the radio, has been treated like a lot of children, about such a meeting, but I have had and the public have been treated with absolute contempt no notification whatsoever about a over this matter. Now, if it was intended meeting taking place. Incidentally, in to create a panic among the public case any member has got any misunder- and set them speculating as to the standing, I was off the Island a fort- position of the Government, then this night ago, and prior to going I informed. exercise has been a great success. These the Clerk of Tynwald I would be off secretive and bulldozing tactics are the Island, and I have not heard yet something to be absolutely deplored, about this "secret" meeting that was and, as Mr Nivisen has pointed out, held. I believe that some part of it there are other Bills that have gone was subsequently held in public and away for signature—some of them three certain items were transacted, but I months ago--sand they haven't had the would strongly object to this method Royal Assent yet, and yet here is this of concealing information from the Usury Act, which is on this supplemen- members in the first place and from tary agenda, being rushed through, and the public in the second place. I think two days after the Keys and Legislative that this item whereby we are asked Council first heard about it the Royal to suspend Standing Orders, in order Assent was given to it. Now this indi- that a certain announcement of a Royal cates that some prior arrangement has Assent of a Bill, about which some gone on, so this is something that has members know nothing about. There not sprung up an of a sudden, and the are other Bills of extreme urgency that members of this Court should have have had to go through this long sys- been kept informed of the position all tem of awaiting Royal Assent, but it the way through. I have made many is surprising when the will is there how enquiries since our last meeting to find quickly things can be done. I under- out what the true position of borrowing stand that there are certain other Bills in the Isle of Man is, and I haven't still in the pipeline which this hon. been able to find the slightest evidence Court were almost inclined to have a that people are having any difficulty constitutional crisis over, and these in raising money, all the money they Bills have not yet been presented, hav- want at 6 per cent. Local authorities, ing not received the Royal Assent, but the Education Authority and private it is remarkable how things—and we individuals. So are we to understand would congratulate those who have ex- that Government are having difficulty? pedited this, in whose interest I have Because, if so, they are the only ones. yet to learn, not having heard the Even if you raise the interest rate, arguments for and against, and I which is suggested in Usury, by this personally would object most strongly repeal of Usury, then 'there is no to the suspension of Standing Orders, guarantee at all that you will get the and I think this Bill, the same as any money for Government. All you can other Bill, should abide by the rules guarantee is that you will put the rate of the Court which are made in the up on everybody else, because once you interests of the protection of the public. fix a higher level than 6 per mint, that I would oppose the suspension of Stand- will become the level for borrowing in ing Orders. the Island, I would like, Your Excel- Motion to suspend Standing Orders to include Supplementary Agenda —Defeated. TYNWALD COURT, ,FEBRUARY 20, 1968 817 lency, if you would tell u5 whether by the winter of 1967. This means, sir, you have at any time indicated that if that there was a considerable amount of this Usury Act didn't go through that money due for repayment by the Manx you would dissolve the Keys, or made Government as a result of the borrow- any suggestion to that effect. Thank- ings of the late autumn of 1964. I do you. not know—I am not in the confidence of either Your Excellency'.s Executive The Governor: May I just say that Council or the present Finance Board, that is the very first I have ever heard but I have enough intelligence to deduce of it. It may be a figment of the hon. what has happened, sir. ,The three-year member's imagination. borrowing has fallen due, and the Isle of Man Government has found it neces- Mr Simcocks; Your Excellency, I rise sary to borrow, not the small sums in support of this resolution. In doing which the hon. member for West Dou- so, sir, I think I should congratulate gla-, speaks of— both the previous speakers for a very a,stute exercise in political gamesman- Mr Kneale: I am talking about mil- ship. They must know as well as any lions, other members know that there has been a real need for this. If we cast our Mr Simcocks: The large sums of minds back, sir, to 1964, shortly after money which are required by the Gov- the first election of the present Gov- ernment just cannot be borrowed at ernment in the United Kingdom, we 6 per cent, sir; When one recognises will remember that difficulties were that 90-day Treasury bills are being dis- caused by an increase in the bank rate counted by the British Government at to 7 per cent. This was at the time this moment at .round about 71, per cent; when it so happened that monies were when one reckons that £7 12s. 6d. is requiring repayment by the Isle of Man a return which can be obtained on re- Government, and an attempt was made, demption on certain British Govern- sir, to repeal the Usury Act by the ment debenture securities; it is quite Finance Board of that time, then. The obvious that some step has got to be fact that that attempt failed was no taken. Now, sir, the reason for the hai.tte doubt due to some extent by the efforts of a fortnight ago was because a difli of' the two members who have spoken.