Vol. 712 Friday No. 106 10 July 2009

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Arrangement of Business Announcement Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies and Credit Unions Bill Second Reading Autism Bill Second Reading Holocaust (Return of Cultural Objects) Bill Second Reading Driving Instruction (Suspension and Exemption Powers) Bill Second Reading Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 877 Arrangement of Business[10 JULY 2009] Community Benefit/Credit Unions Bill 878

Lord Goodlad: My Lords, I think that I probably House of Lords speak for all members of your Lordships’ Select Committee on the Constitution in thanking the noble Friday, 10 July 2009. Baroness the Leader of the House for what she has said and for her unvarying courtesy. I hope and believe 10 am that we will have adequate time to consider the matter. Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Exeter. Co-operative and Community Benefit Arrangement of Business Societies and Credit Unions Bill Announcement Second Reading

10.05 am 10.08 am The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness Moved by Lord Tomlinson: Royall of Blaisdon): My Lords, before we begin proceedings on the four Private Members’ Bills today That the Bill be read a second time. it may be helpful if I say a few words about how we intend to proceed with the Committee stage of the Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, I beg to move that this Parliamentary Standards Bill. Bill be now read a second time. During the Second Reading debate I received a very This Bill arose as a Private Member’s Bill in another clear message about the concerns that many noble place introduced by my right honourable friend Lords hold about the Bill and about the timescale on Mr Malcolm Wicks. Supporters of the Bill when it which the Government intend to proceed. I have reflected was published included honourable and right honourable on the debate and the strong views expressed about Members from all the three main parties in the other the Bill and it is my intention today to table amendments place and the Bill passed through all its stages without to the Bill which I hope will address those concerns. amendment. As soon as the amendments are tabled I will write to Following an extensive Treasury consultation entitled, all noble Lords who took part in that debate explaining Review of the GB Cooperative and Credit Union Legislation, those amendments, and I will make copies of my letter a number of reforms were agreed which could be available in the Library of the House and the Printed effected using a legislative reform order; for example, Paper Office. reforms regarding the minimum age for membership On the timescale, I undertook to discuss the of and becoming an officer of an industrial and provident arrangements with the usual channels to see whether society; the modification of rules concerning share more time could be made available. If proceedings in capital; the flexibility for such societies to choose their Committee are not completed at the end of business own year end; facilitating easier dissolution of societies on Tuesday 14 July, further time will be made available and other such reforms. However, the legislative reform as first business after Oral Questions on Thursday order can deal only with deregulatory issues. The Bill 16 July. I take the views of this House very seriously deals in legislative form with the issues arising from and I have listened. I hope that the House will welcome the consultation which could not be regarded as what I propose. deregulatory and therefore could not be included in a legislative reform order. Thus the Bill completes the Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I am very response to the public consultation. grateful for that statement which is helpful and useful I wish to set the subject matter of the legislation in for all Members of the House. Bearing in mind the a slightly broader context before I deal with its specific difficulties that I understand are occurring with mail provision. The ideals and principles of co-operation delivery, particularly this weekend, could electronic and mutuality are well entrenched in our economic means be used to send the message to noble Lords? and social history. Very few people do not know Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, that is an something about Robert Owen and the New Lanark excellent idea. I will certainly do my utmost to ensure mill experiments, or the Rochdale pioneers, or are that all Members who have electronic facilities receive unaware of the writings of Sidney and Beatrice Webb. the letter and the attachments by electronic means. Those lessons of early co-operation and mutuality are well enshrined in our social and economic history and Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, I am most grateful show the early significance of such co-operation and to the noble Baroness the Leader of the House, but if mutuality. Today we are at the end of a period of she is doing that she could ensure, with an extra click decline as regards the significance of co-operation. We of the button, that the message goes to all Members, are now in an era of resurgence—a renaissance—of not simply to those who took part in the Second co-operation and mutuality. Mutual building societies, Reading debate. bastions of financial stability, were demutualised, a handful of shares and a few hundred pounds being the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I have bribe which people accepted to demutualise them. absolutely no problem with that, an extra click of the They gained an immediate small windfall in their mouse is exactly what I will do. However, I know that pockets at the expense of generations of financial some Members of the House are not electronically stability. We all know what happened to those who equipped. I am afraid that I cannot write to all Members pursued the course of greed in order to demutualise but I will certainly e-mail all Members. those building societies. It was almost an act of 879 Community Benefit/Credit Unions Bill[LORDS] Community Benefit/Credit Unions Bill 880

[LORD TOMLINSON] Clause 2 changes the name of the Industrial and financial vandalism. If anybody quarrels with that, I Provident Societies Act 1965 and goes a long way suggest that they would quarrel only with the word towards removing from the statute book the rather “almost”. outdated term “industrial and provident societies”. Today, the resurgence of co-operatives and mutuals Clause 3 is somewhat more complicated, but is reflects consumers who are looking for an ethical simple in its objective. It applies the Company Directors alternative to banks, which have significantly failed us, Disqualification Act 1986 to officers of industrial and and the Co-operative Bank and the Britannia Building provident societies, as it applies to officers of companies, Society illustrate an admirable way forward when we building societies and friendly societies. Under the see this planned merger creating a new £70 billion current law, officers of industrial and provident societies bank—a new super mutual. who have mismanaged their society cannot be disqualified. Major developments are also to be found in the Clause 3 makes such disqualification possible. retail sector. The Co-operative Retail Society now has Clause 4 gives the Treasury powers to apply to a unified management structure and more than 2,000 industrial and provident societies, with appropriate stores. The Co-operative Group has acquired Somerfield, modification, company law on investigation of companies, and the combined operation has something approaching company names, and dissolution and restoration to an 8 per cent share. I could go on, but I will not detain the register. There is a substantial amount of detail your Lordships’ House with a description of the virtues concerning giving the Treasury a power to apply company of co-operatives, credit unions and mutuals. law on striking off and dissolution of defunct societies, investigation of companies and requisition of documents, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, does my and on company names. noble friend agree also that the co-operative retail Clause 5, dealing with credit unions, is the final sector has been leading the way in fair trade and substantive clause. Credit unions are a different form setting a very good example, which has been followed of mutuality. As financial co-operatives, they operate by other large retailers? in communities and workplaces around Britain. There are 480 credit unions in the UK, with some 730,000 Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, my noble friend anticipated members, assets of £558 million and an income of what I was going to say in a few minutes’ time, when I £31 million a year. A recent report from the New would have referred not only to fair trade but to Local Government Network suggests that up to 200,000 ethical trade and the sustainability of trade. Those are more people in Britain are at risk from illegal loan all virtues of the co-operative sector. sharks because they cannot access credit from traditional Suffice it to say that these co-operatives, mutuals lenders. The diminished availability of regulated sub-prime and community benefit societies belong to their members; credit is creating conditions where a sizeable number they are not assets to be bought and sold to satisfy the of people have little option but to borrow from illegal short-term interests or short-term gains of shareholders. sources. The report suggests that at least 165,000 Co-operatives and mutuals are large players in the people already use loan sharks in the United Kingdom economy, with assets of more than £400 billion and and that we can expect that number to rise significantly. about half our population in membership in some way Credit unions are an imperative way of helping or other. They serve many of the wishes of our people, poor people to control that limited part of their financial including fair trade, ethical trade and sustainable self-government in an ethical way. I believe that they development—as I had intended to say. are central to government plans for tackling financial I turn to the Bill, which is of importance to this exclusion. That has certainly been so in recent years important sector of the economy. The Bill refers to and we look forward to the continued development of three categories of organisation: co-operatives which that activity. However, the credit union movement is are run for the benefit of their members; co-operatives relatively small and I shall be addressing that question which are run for the benefit of their communities—the in another debate that should take place fairly shortly. so-called community benefit schemes, including many In relation to credit unions, Clause 5 enables, where housing associations, social clubs and sports supporters’ appropriate, provisions corresponding to building society clubs; and credit unions, to which I shall return in a law to be made for credit unions so as to recognise short while. their existing, increasing and significant role as deposit This short Bill of eight clauses has five main clauses, takers. while Clauses 6 to 8 deal with mainly technical issues, Co-operatives, credit unions and other mutual societies such as consequential amendments and regulations, provide another dimension of choice and diversity in commencement orders, and territorial extent. The main the economy as a whole and especially in financial part of the Bill is in Clauses 1 to 5. Clauses 1 and 2 services. The Bill, besides the rebranding element, will reflect the fact that, following the Treasury consultation, improve corporate governance, make disqualification there was an overwhelming desire to change the outdated of officers possible, and make co-operatives and name of, and rebrand, industrial and provident societies community benefit societies open to closer scrutiny by more appropriately for today’s world; the purpose is to the registrar and through the FSA being given new introduce alternative names. powers of investigation. Clause 1, therefore, provides that societies registered As the co-operative and mutual sector is enjoying a under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act 1965 resurgence, the Bill, if passed, will help the modernisation shall be registered as co-operative societies or community and rebranding of such societies, while simultaneously benefit societies. making an improvement in corporate governance. 881 Community Benefit/Credit Unions Bill[10 JULY 2009] Community Benefit/Credit Unions Bill 882

I conclude by commending the Bill to the House in the This is a tidying-up, modernising measure and it is words of my right honourable friend Malcolm Wicks, eminently sensible. It does not grapple with the big who initiated this Private Member’s Bill. He said, issues around generating more resources for the sector, “while those of us on the left in politics are proud of the origins of which I think are for another day, but I greatly welcome the co-operative movement as part of a wider labour movement, the Bill and the way in which it has been introduced by there is a sense in which many of the virtues of mutuality, thrift, the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson. We on these Benches self-help and responsibility strike chords on the other side of the strongly support it. Chamber”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/4/09; col. 507.] I beg to move. 10.26 am Baroness Noakes: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord 10.22 am Tomlinson, has made a well argued case for the Bill. It Lord Newby: My Lords, it is a great pleasure to is of course masquerading as a Private Member’s Bill follow the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, in speaking but it is, in all but name, a government Bill. I say at the on this useful Bill. He started his speech by talking outset that we shall not oppose it. My honourable about the history of the movement and said that friend Mr Mark Hoban in another place spoke at everyone knew about Robert Owen and the Rochdale length about the Bill. I do not intend to rival that pioneers. The sad truth is that, although we all know performance this morning but I have one or two things about them, our children do not. When we talk about that I should like to say about it. the resurgence of the co-operative movement, which Noble Lords may know that I have often expressed many of us are keen to see, we have to accept that this scepticism in your Lordships’ House about mutuality is a novel concept to many people; it is not one with in general. I have concerns about a mutual model in which they grew up. The demutualisation of the building which ownership pressures are not sharp-edged. I can societies means that, as young people, our children do see that mutuals are popular and that they reach parts not save with a mutual and do not, as I did, shop at the of society that financial services organisations generally Co-op because there is not a Co-op within spitting, do not, but I have never found any evidence that they walking or driving distance of where we live. Therefore, are the most efficient way to deliver financial, or indeed there is a big job to be done in making the case for any other, services. They do not give any assurance mutuality, which we hope in our small way to do. that things cannot go badly wrong. The Presbyterian The Bill is useful in that respect, particularly in Mutual Society was driven into administration last year consigning to history the phrase “industrial and provident by a misguided commercial loan portfolio, which stands society”. Whenever I heard it, a picture always came proof that things can and do go wrong with mutuals. into my mind of Pennine towns and LS Lowry paintings. If we look at building societies, we see that there are It has no relevance to the kind of institutions that we two big stories from the last century. The first, to are all seeking to promote, so that is a useful change. It which the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, referred, is is also sensible to require all these bodies to register the demutualisation of the larger building societies, with the FSA in future. I hope that, in regulating which was largely followed by their disappearance into them, the FSA does a better job than it did in regulating larger banking groups. I do not regard that as an act of the Dunfermline Building Society, but one hopes that vandalism. I believe that there were sound economic it has learnt its lesson in that respect. reasons for what happened. However, the bigger story The other detailed provisions of the Bill are all is of a massive decline in the movement. A hundred sensible pieces of tidying up. However, one thing that I years ago, there were 1,700 building societies; now, never understand is why legislation relating to mutuals there are barely more than 50. That has little to do is always introduced via Private Members’ Bills. It is with demutualisation, which affected only a relatively virtually the only bit of the legislative process that is small number. It has much more to do with the underlying always done by such Bills rather than by government fragility of the business model, which generally cannot Bills. We have banking Bills that no one would consider withstand the management mistakes that litter the as being appropriate as Private Members’ Bills. The history of the building society movement. Within value presumably is that, paradoxically, it is easier to management mistakes, I include one of the more get a Private Member’s Bill through on something common reasons for the disappearance of building such as this, but it seems odd—almost unique in the societies—namely, operating at an uneconomic scale. way that we do business—that we have a dribble of Those mistakes, in my view, have their roots in the Private Members’ Bills, however eloquently advocated, ineffectiveness of the “membership equals ownership” in respect of mutuals. construct, which allows inefficient or incompetent I am sure that, as the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, management to go unchecked. said, we will be debating credit unions again in future Therefore, I have a particular scepticism about Clause 5 and we will undoubtedly debate building societies as of the Bill, which will allow the Treasury to apply we look to reform of the financial sector. I shall not building society provisions to credit unions. I think weary the House with a discussion of those matters that this means that the financial freedoms that got today but I have one question for the Minister. Yesterday’s building societies into trouble could be extended to banking White Paper says that the Government are credit unions. I name the Dunfermline and the West already proposing to use a legislative reform order to Bromwich as building societies that have hit the headlines enable members to invest more than £20,000 in transferable for serious failings in the past few months alone. I shares in industrial and provident societies. That seems could name even more that have been forced into a sensible change, but can the Minister tell us what the mergers for lesser, although none the less important, timetable for that order will be? mistakes. 883 Community Benefit/Credit Unions Bill[LORDS] Community Benefit/Credit Unions Bill 884

[BARONESS NOAKES] In addition, the Bill allows the regulations to confer The Building Societies (Funding) and Mutual Societies power to make further orders, regulations and subordinate (Transfers) Act 2007 contains yet more powers for legislation. I am most concerned about the ability to building societies to use wholesale funding. The make further legislation without reference to Parliament. Government are wisely refraining from activating those The order-making powers in the Bill are subject to the powers at present for building societies and I am not at affirmative procedure, which is right and proper, but all sure that we would ever want credit unions to have those orders can make provision for further secondary the freedoms that are contained in that building society legislation and, as far as I can tell, that does not legislation. I am not at all convinced of the merits of require affirmative approval or, indeed, any parliamentary giving another sector of the mutual movement the process. I shall want to revisit that issue, too. freedoms that have allowed others to get into trouble I have one technical question in connection with in the past. Clause 5, which allows the Treasury to make provision for credit unions corresponding to any provision relating I also say to the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, that, to building societies. Will the Minister, or the noble although I concede that the term “industrial and Lord, Lord Tomlinson, confirm that this power can provident” comes from an earlier era, I can see no bring credit unions within the special resolution regime reason to junk it. If it were necessary to trash every provisions in the Banking Act 2009? It was set up for sign or symbol of the past, your Lordships’ House and banks but has already been extended to building societies indeed the whole of Parliament could well have been by a statutory instrument. Is it intended that a further consigned to landfill some time ago. I am comfortable extension could or should be made to credit unions with tradition and it grieves me that the Benches and, if so, what will be the conditions for a credit opposite delight so much in what they call modernisation union to fall within the special resolution regime powers? at the expense of a sense of history. Lastly, will the Minister update the House on the The new title of “co-operative” is hardly a modern Government’s plans for the many regulations that will one. Co-operatives were founded in the industrial era, be necessary if this Bill, once an Act, is to be given so the term comes from precisely the same era as that effect? which gave industrial and provident societies their name. Of course, I would have found the title a little 10.35 am easier to swallow had the co-operative movement not The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury bequeathed its name to the Co-operative Party, which (Lord Myners): My Lords, I am very grateful to my is a part of the Labour movement. I never quite noble friend Lord Tomlinson, of Walsall, for his support understand precisely how the two fit together but I for the mutual sector and for the eloquent manner in understand that there is a lot of intertwining between which he has presented this Bill, and to other noble the Co-operative Party and the Labour Party. Using Lords for their participation in the debate. The this Bill to immortalise a part of the Labour movement Government are a strong supporter of the mutual is not exactly to my taste. sector. They welcome the important contribution that the sector makes in providing choice and diversity in Some bits of the Bill are positively worth while. I financial services and fostering financial inclusion and support compulsory registration of industrial and social cohesion. This Bill is particularly relevant to provident societies and their modernised successors. I industrial and provident societies, community benefit also support the provisions about directors and officers societies and credit unions. in Clause 3 and, in broad terms, the other extensions of company law in Clause 4. However, I have some It may be useful for me to explain why the Government concerns about the regulation-making powers in Clauses 4 believe that the Bill is both good and timely. The crisis and 5. They both allow for the creation of criminal in the international financial markets and its impact offences and I have never been a fan of creating on the economies of every major nation has reinforced criminal offences by secondary legislation. However, I the need for countries to have diversified economies accept that there are many precedents for that, so I and financial systems with a variety of different types shall not pursue the argument. of economic models. In the UK, the proprietary company form is the predominant model of choice for many None the less, I wonder whether there should be new enterprises, offering limited liability and the scope some restriction on the power. Perhaps the noble for involving external shareholders. However, an interesting Lord, Lord Tomlinson, or the Minister will tell me and often overlooked fact is that the mutual structure, whether the power could be used to create a criminal with more than 30 million members, is not only a offence where none exists under company or building significant provider of services and products to local society law. If so, I shall want to return to that at a communities but a most viable alternative to the later stage of the Bill. I note that the Delegated proprietary company model. For example, in some Powers Committee has suggested limiting this power communities, and for many who are excluded from so that it cannot be used to create a penalty in excess of mainstream financial services, credit unions continue the relevant one in company law or building society to offer the only credible alternative to loan sharks law. I was surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, and unscrupulous doorstep moneylenders. did not refer to the 11th report from the Delegated Powers Access to capital and funds, or rather, as we have Committee, which contained a clear recommendation seen in recent times, the lack of it, is crucial and can for a limitation on that power. I give notice that I shall have very destabilising consequences for businesses, want to return to that in Committee. members and customers. The Government applaud 885 Community Benefit/Credit Unions Bill[10 JULY 2009] Community Benefit/Credit Unions Bill 886 the role that credit unions play in encouraging a already used the word “co-operative” in its title and savings ethos among their members, as well as providing that was challenged as being misleading. The powers them with necessary capital when needed. Co-operative granted in the Bill will enable the Treasury to give the enterprises in the UK, as the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, FSA powers to order an industrial and provident noted, have more than 300,000 employees and assets society to change its name if its name is too similar to in excess of £10 billion, and are the lifeblood of many the name of another business or was obtained by communities. The Government recognise the valuable providing misleading information. However, the Bill contribution they make to people’s lives, their fair-minded does not include powers for the Treasury to make values, community participation and engagement. retrospective legislation. Neither does it give the Treasury The Government have displayed their commitment powers to deal with the use of the name “co-operative” to the sector and in recent years have undertaken by businesses that are not co-operatives, as the Bill various policy and legislative initiatives aimed at enhancing concerns only co-operatives. General powers to regulate the operational efficiency of mutuals. Recent legislation, the use of business names by businesses remain with the such as the Building Societies (Funding) and Mutual Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. Societies (Transfers) Act 2007, which incidentally also I thank the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform started out as a Private Member’s Bill initiated in the Committee for its consideration of this Bill, published other place by Sir John Butterfill, has demonstrated yesterday in its 11th report of this Session. The Committee how the sector can seize the opportunities offered. commented on Clause 4, which enables the Treasury This recent piece of legislation has been credited with to apply to industrial and provident societies provisions having made possible the merger between the Britannia of the Companies Acts relating to investigations, company Building Society and Co-operative Financial Services, names and dissolution, and Clause 5, which enables creating what my noble friend describes as a super the Treasury to apply to credit unions provisions of mutual, to the benefit of many thousands of members. building society law. The Committee expressed concern The Government have also set up an £80 million that the provisions which may be applied include growth fund for credit unions and community many which contain criminal offences, some of which development finance institutions to lend on to their carry up to seven years’ imprisonment as a maximum members. A further £18.75 million has been announced penalty. as additional funding in the 2009 Budget, bringing the The Committee notes that your Lordships’ House total funding to almost £100 million. More than 160,000 will wish to consider whether the Bill should be amended credit union members have so far benefited from loans on that point. An amendment, should your Lordships since the start of the growth fund in July 2006. The consider it necessary, would provide that the maximum Government recognise that one way of helping the penalty for an offence created by regulations under sector is by ensuring that it has an enabling legislative Clauses 4 and 5 may not exceed that for the corresponding framework. The Government are taking forward legislative offence under the legislation being applied. I can confirm and policy reforms for credit unions and co-operatives that the Government do not intend to use regulations under the legislative reform order, on which the under Clauses 4 or 5 to impose an increased penalty Government will shortly be reporting as it begins its for offences. I hope that my statement will persuade parliamentary process. your Lordships that there is no need for an amendment The Bill, which complements the work in the legislative of the type described by the Committee. reform order, focuses on the linked objectives of I am sure that your Lordships will agree that the modernising the legislation and further increasing member proposed reforms in the Bill are both necessary and confidence in societies by bringing their corporate proportionate. They will help provide further confidence governance standards up to “best in class”. It will give in this important sector and engender continuing the Treasury power to make further changes to credit improvement in governance standards. union law by importing building society law where The noble Lord, Lord Newby, asked about the appropriate. The sector has been seeking that to help it timetable for the order. The Government intend to to move on to the next phase of development. publish a draft legislative reform order by the end of I shall address some questions that arose at Third July. We intend to lay the LRO before Parliament Reading in the other place. The Bill gives the Treasury when the House returns from the Recess. powers to apply to industrial and provident societies The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, asked about the certain provisions of company law on investigation of power to make further regulations in Clauses 4 and 5. company names and on dissolution and restoration to Any further regulations—for example, prescribing fees— the register. In the other place, Mr Peter Bottomley will use the same parliamentary procedure as the sought an explanation of why that power had been provision of company law to which they apply. The conferred on the Treasury and not the Secretary of noble Baroness also asked whether the Bill will extend State. The simple explanation is that the Treasury does the SRR to credit unions. I am advised that it does not have a Secretary of State. When power is conferred not. One would need an order under the Banking on the Treasury to make regulations by way of statutory Act 2009 to do that. instrument—as in the Bill—it is exercisable by the The noble Baroness also asked whether we could Treasury through the Commissioners of Her Majesty’s extend building society freedoms to credit unions. Treasury, as set out in Schedule 1 to the Interpretation Clause 5 preserves key features of credit unions, as the Act 1978. key sections of the Credit Unions Act cannot be Mr Bottomley also inquired whether the powers amended. The Building Societies Act does not contain granted in the Bill would apply retrospectively to restraints on what building societies can do. If I find allow the FSA to disapply a name if a company had that I can add helpfully to those answers, I will of 887 Community Benefit/Credit Unions Bill[LORDS] Autism Bill 888

[LORD MYNERS] Lord Myners: My Lords, as a former chairman of course write to my noble friend Lord Tomlinson, the Marks & Spencer, I assure my noble friend Lord noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and the noble Lord, Tomlinson that it has not made a donation to any Lord Newby, to expand on those points. political party for many, many years, which I welcome. The noble Baroness said that things can and do go wrong with mutuals. We know that to be the case with Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, I welcome that, too, but all forms of business ownership—incorporated, mutual I can find many other companies that do make such and non-incorporated—but this timely and good Bill donations. The Co-operative movement was not engaged strengthens the governance of mutuals and, as such, in party politics at all until the outset of the First deserves to be welcomed. Before I was a Minister, I World War. When it found that the government produced a report for the Treasury on the governance distribution of groceries to members of Co-operative of mutuals in the light of the failure of the Equitable societies was discriminatory and that they could not Insurance Society, a failure which, as noble Lords will get fair treatment, it decided that it had to engage in need no reminding, was determined by the judge to be direct political activity; so it was an historical decision, a consequence primarily of bad governance and taken nearly 100 years ago, to combat the discrimination management of the society. I believe that the steps of government in the distribution of scarce resources. taken here will address some of those supposed weaknesses Finally, my noble friend the Minister replied every of the mutual model. Noble Lords will also need no bit as efficiently as I would have done to the questions reminding that Sir David Walker, who will be producing asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and I a report on governance of financial institutions fairly agree with every word that he said. If anything leaves soon, was, after we gave him the original terms of her unsatisfied, we will return to the matter in Committee. reference for that review, asked to extend it to include mutuals, so he will be addressing some of the points Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee raised by the noble Baroness. of the Whole House. The noble Baroness closed her remarks by saying that she was not always at ease with those who were Autism Bill delighted with modernisation for modernisation’s ends Second Reading in itself. I am sure that those comments will be noted by Mr David Cameron. 10.52 am Moved By Baroness Pitkeathley 10.48 am That the Bill be read a second time. Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, I thank the three other participants in this short but very useful debate. I very Baroness Pitkeathley: My Lords, it is an honour much value the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord and a pleasure to bring this Bill to your Lordships’ Newby, and I share his views. I also very much welcome House, and I know that the 500,000 people with the intervention of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, autism in the UK and their families are watching its although with slightly less enthusiasm for parts of her progress with great interest. I thank colleagues around speech; she will understand why if I mention a couple the House for their support and interest. Although the of them. She seemed to be unwilling to recognise that number of noble Lords who will speak today is small, co-operatives can be efficient. I used to have my house it is extremely select, and I am particularly pleased insurance and car insurance with the Co-operative that the noble Lord, Lord Freud, has chosen this Bill Insurance Society. I stopped for a number of years on which to make his maiden speech. I know that we during a period of fairly substantial inefficiency. I all look forward to that very much. I have been market-tested both my car insurance and my house encouraged, too, by the good wishes of many Members insurance last year, and I returned to the Co-operative of this House who have an interest in this issue and because it was cost-efficient. I was very pleased last would have been here had their diaries permitted. The week, because not only had I taken out a cost-efficient noble Earl, Lord Howe, and noble Lord, Lord Astor, form of insurance, I got my letter to tell me that for the for example, have a strong personal interest in the past half-year, my dividend has been £88. That is a topic. further cost reduction. I also acknowledge the support of the National I understand the point that the noble Baroness Autistic Society, which very much welcomes the Bill. made. She referred to the Dunfermline Building This Bill is an excellent example of how relatively Society. We should look at the two different arms of small changes in legislation can make huge changes in the Dunfermline Building Society. I believe that I the lives of people with disabilities and their families— am correct to say—I tried to check this with the something that I have had the honour of doing before Treasury this morning—that the traditional mutuality as a result of several Bills on carers. The Bill is also a role continues. The Dunfermline Building Society got marvellous example of cross-party working, and gives itself into troubling by moving into non-traditional parliamentarians something to cheer about and be activity. proud of: two things that may have been singularly The noble Baroness clearly does not like the lacking in our work in recent months. Co-operative having an association with the Co-operative The Shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Cheryl Party any more than I like Marks & Spencer or any Gillan MP, introduced the Autism Bill to the House of other company identifying with the Conservative Party Commons in January this year. The original Bill required when it makes a financial donation to it. local authorities and their partners to take a strategic 889 Autism Bill[10 JULY 2009] Autism Bill 890 approach to meeting the current and future needs of ongoing. Fundamentally, the Bill places the Government’s children and adults with autism in their area. However, existing commitments on to a statutory footing so that following strong commitments from Sarah McCarthy-Fry, the Government can be held to account. Although the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools Bill extends to England and Wales, it will apply only to and Learners, on data collection and provision for England. children with autism, the clauses on children have I want to draw a few things to your Lordships’ been removed, and the Government are committed to attention. Clause 1 imposes a deadline for publishing amending the children and young people’s plans—the the autism strategy of not later than 1 April 2010. so-called CYPPs: the key strategic planning tool for local Clause 2 imposes a deadline for issuing guidance on authorities—through another Bill, the Apprenticeships, the implementation of the strategy of not later than Skills, Children and Learning Bill, to place a new legal 31 December 2010. It is quite unusual for deadlines as duty on local authorities to ensure that local areas specific as these to be included in a Bill, but it responds collate and share data on disabled children as part of to the need of Ms Gillan and the National Autistic the needs assessment and include children with autism Society to have concrete guarantees of action within a in their plans for children’s services. The Minister also reasonable timescale. Commitments have been made made a commitment that the statutory guidance that to publish the strategy by the end of this year. I know accompanies the regulations will state that autism that the intention is to stick to that timetable—I am must be specified as a specific category on these registers. sure that the Minister will confirm that—so the deadline The Bill is therefore a very good example not only of in the Bill is a belt-and-braces one that gives additional cross-party working but of cross-departmental working. leeway. Even the clauses relating to adults have gone through On the timing of the consultation on and publication quite a metamorphosis since their original drafting. of the strategy, Clause 1 provides for consultation on The new Bill puts a duty on the Secretary of State to the autism strategy before the Bill comes into force to introduce an adult autism strategy for improving outcomes fulfil the Secretary of State’s duty to consult on it. In for adults with autism, accompanied by statutory the same vein, Clause 2 provides for consultation on guidance for local authorities and NHS bodies. The the guidance on implementing the strategy before the statutory guidance covers all the crucial parts, including Bill comes into force to fulfil the Secretary of State’s access to diagnosis, needs assessments, transition planning, duty to consult on it and to deal with what might seem the strategic planning of support services for adults to be a mismatch in timing between the implementation with autism, and local partnership and co-operation. of the Bill and the ongoing consultation to which I That strategy is currently being consulted on. Everyone have already referred. The consultation began in April who works with those with autism and their families and is expected to run until mid-September but it is knows that that range of guidance is necessary to help unlikely that this Bill will complete all its stages before them. then. It may be that the strategy is published before The Bill has six clauses. Clause 1 contains provisions the Bill comes into effect. It was therefore important on the duty to prepare and publish an autism strategy. to ensure that all the work being undertaken would Clause 2 covers the duty to issue guidance on count for the purposes of the Bill. Hence, the inclusion implementing the strategy, while Clause 3 deals with of these provisions. the duty on local authorities and NHS bodies to act I want now to draw your Lordships’ attention to under the guidance. Clauses 4, 5 and 6 cover other the mechanism by which the Bill will impose a duty on aspects. The Bill, as amended in Committee in the local authorities and NHS bodies to act under the other place, places a duty on the Secretary of State to guidance of the implementation of the strategy. This is prepare and publish, not later than April 2010, a rather an innovative procedure, which may not have strategy for the improvement of health and social care been done before. For local authorities, specifying that services for adults in England with autistic spectrum the guidance is to be treated as Section 7 guidance conditions. The Secretary of State is required to keep under the Local Authority Social Services Act 1970—some the autism strategy under review. He or she will be able of us may be old enough to remember the so-called to revise it, and has a duty to consult when doing so. LASS Act; I certainly am—means that they would be In addition, the Bill requires the Secretary of State required to exercise their social services function in to prepare and issue, not later than 31 December 2010, accordance with the guidance. A local authority which guidance to the NHS and local authorities on did not would be acting unlawfully. But for NHS implementing the strategy, to keep the guidance under bodies, there is no existing provision equivalent to review, and to consult the NHS and local authorities Section 7 of that Act. Of course, it is very important in preparing it, particularly if he or she proposes to for those with autism and their families to have equal revise it substantially. The Bill also contains provisions attention from local authorities and NHS services. that will create a requirement on NHS bodies and Most people are involved with both, but they do not local authorities to act in accordance with the guidance know the difference between them—indeed, why should issued by the Secretary of State they? The Government have made welcome public The guidance will have the same force for NHS commitments to publishing an autism strategy by the bodies as it will for local authorities. The Bill creates end of 2009 and to issuing subsequent guidance with the same obligation on NHS bodies, which will be real power to local authorities and the NHS on how to treated as local authorities, and their functions in implement that strategy. A full public consultation on relation to the relevant services will be under the the strategy was launched in April this year and is provisions of the LASS Act. That was a key concern 891 Autism Bill[LORDS] Autism Bill 892

[BARONESS PITKEATHLEY] contribution in the workplace. Many have an attention, for the sponsors of the Bill and for the National a focus on detail and a sheer perseverance that can be Autistic Society. It of course breaks new ground and invaluable attributes in particular jobs. arguably creates a precedent for the NHS, of which Two forward-looking employers—BT and Goldman the chief executive is aware, and may be important in Sachs—have programmes that allow people with autism future years for other people with disabilities. The to make this kind of contribution. BT has told me that autonomy of NHS foundation trusts has been preserved autistic people are highly prized for their extraordinary by not including them in the definition of “NHS facility with numbers. The tragedy is that, according body” in the Bill. They will not be under the same duty to estimates provided to me by the National Autistic to act under the guidance of other NHS bodies, although Society, only some 50,000 adults with autism, or 15 per their general duty to take into account any guidance cent, have regular work. The approach presaged in the issued by the Secretary of State will apply. Welfare Reform Bill would allow us to find the very Finally, Clause 4 lists those bodies and agencies to considerable resources necessary to transform the lives which the Bill applies and for whose staff suitable of those adults with autism. It would do so despite the training on the Bill and guidance should be provided. very difficult times that we are facing, when the economic However, we should remember that other staff, with pressures on spending will inevitably be severe. Properly whom those with autism and their families may be in organised programmes, managed with financial rigour, contact, can also play a significant role in their lives. I should allow the 15 per cent figure to improve dramatically. am thinking, for example, around such things as With your Lordships’ indulgence, I should like to employment, the staff at Jobcentre Plus, the DWP and take advantage of this unique opportunity to place those who may act as gatekeepers to other services. It some more personal remarks on the record. My family will be important to ensure that their input and training arrived here 71 years ago at a very difficult time for is kept under review. In fact, it is a very welcome this country and the world. They escaped only because provision that the Bill states that the Secretary of State Sigmund Freud, my great-grandfather, was a well known must keep the autism strategy under review and revise figure. My father and grandfather were both desperately it as necessary. The effectiveness of the strategy and proud to join the Armed Forces of their newly adopted the statutory guidance will ultimately depend not on home. Indeed, my father parachuted back into Austria their content, which we are debating today, but on in 1945 as an officer of the SOE and single-handedly how well they are implemented. I am sure that with captured the enemy aerodrome of Zeltweg. the support that the Bill has received from several government departments, with the commitment of The descendants of Sigmund Freud have been accepted Ministers, the vigilance of the National Autistic Society and have thrived in this country. I cannot remember a and all those who have been involved, we can ensure single occasion—not one—when I have been made to that implementation goes ahead satisfactorily. feel an outsider or that I did not belong here. That is a remarkable testimony to the tolerance and generosity Like all Private Members’ Bills, this Bill is modest of this country. I firmly believe that—perhaps with in its aspirations, but it will certainly not be modest in one or two exceptions—I would not have been able to the effect it has on the lives of those with whom it is make that statement of any other country in the concerned. I commend it to the House and I beg to world. While I would not presume to speak for all move. Freuds, who are a fiercely individualist group, many of them will, I know, join me when I place on record in 11.03 am this place and at this very difficult time my gratitude to Lord Freud: My Lords, I am delighted to rise for the this great country for all that it has done to nurture the first time in your Lordships’ House in support of this Freud family and other families who have come here Bill. First, perhaps I may place on record my appreciation for freedom and to achieve their potential. I thank the to the staff of this House for their helpfulness towards House for its indulgence. me and my family. I am particularly impressed by the way in which the Doorkeepers thrust notes into my hand as I wander through the corridors. They clearly 11.10 am have a much better idea of where I am than I do. Baroness Tonge: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Let me turn to the Autism Bill. I congratulate my Lord, Lord Freud, on his fascinating maiden speech honourable friend in another place, Cheryl Gillan, on and I welcome him to the House. His remarks about championing this Bill and the noble Baroness, Lady people with autistic spectrum disorder in the workplace Pitkeathley, on so ably introducing it in this House. I were extremely useful and we look forward to hearing should like to take the opportunity to draw your more about that. He made several interesting references Lordships’ attention to the close connection with another to his family. I was wondering what Sigmund Freud Bill before this House, the Welfare Reform Bill. The said about autism, but I do not think that the word underlying concept in that Bill is that, if we invest in a existed in his day. I will have to look through my disciplined fashion in people who need help in making psychiatric text books, if I still have them, to find out their way in the labour market, we all win—that is, the what was the nearest word. I also loved the noble individuals concerned, society and the taxpayer. The Lord’s comment about not knowing where he is. I autistic fit exactly into this paradigm. Indeed, when I remind him that we are given a life sentence to this was compiling my independent report on this matter place, so before we die many of us will probably get to two and a half years ago, autistic people were one the stage of not knowing where we are. We must all group that I had explicitly in mind. With the right look forward to it. I thank the noble Lord for his support, autistic adults can make an incredible contribution. 893 Autism Bill[10 JULY 2009] Autism Bill 894

Over a year ago, on 19 March 2008 to be precise, A huge problem faced by adults with autistic spectrum the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis of Drumglass, led a disorder was mentioned by my noble friend Lord debate on this subject. I spoke in the debate and, in a Addington in last year’s debate. Some people do not very full and informative reply, the noble Baroness, have the condition recognised when they are children. Lady Thornton, gave us reassurances that an enormous As they move into adulthood, sadly, some end up in amount of work was going on and that various initiatives the criminal justice system and, even worse, can often were already in place. She mentioned the Early Support go to prison. What are we doing to identify these programme, extra funds for the National Autistic Society people before they get into trouble? What happened to and for the further involvement of TreeHouse—both the national prevalence study that was announced two of these are wonderful charities—programmes to improve years ago? So far as I know, it has not yet seen the light training for teachers, and funding for the Autism of day. It would be useful to have the answer to that. Education Trust to improve teaching and social work. I think that two weeks must pass between the All this is making a difference. While nothing is ever Second Reading and the Third Reading of a Bill, enough, of course, tremendous progress is being made which means that there is little time for this Bill before for children with autism. However, as the noble Lord, the Summer Recess. I urge the Minister to try to Lord Astor of Hever, said in that debate, enough persuade the authorities to ensure that it gets through attention is still not being paid to the transition years before the Recess, or three months will be lost. Only a and adults with autistic spectrum disorder. This was nod is required from the Front Bench. It does not take the subject of a recent report from the All-Party long and there must be a way in which we can do this Parliamentary Group on Autism. so that we are able to take advantage of the Summer Recess to get going on the work. Perhaps I am asking I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, for for a miracle, but I am sure that the Minister will work introducing the Bill so ably into this House after its on it. We need the publication of both the strategy and passage through the House of Commons. It concentrates the guidance as soon as possible. on the transition phase from school years to adulthood There is increasing interest in the diagnosis and and the management of adults with autistic spectrum treatment of individuals with autistic spectrum disorder. disorder. As someone who years ago as a local councillor It presents a huge problem when it occurs and, without and doctor and then as an MP battled to help individuals proper provision and support, it can create enormous with autism and their families, I want to emphasise yet stress in a family, sometimes leading to relationship again the need for co-operation between health services, break-up, which I have seen on several occasions. social services and education. I see that the noble Baroness is nodding in agreement. Co-operation is On a very pragmatic level, the National Audit Office still a headache, but it was a nightmare in my day. I has found that simple interventions that occur early, understand that the joint needs assessment that each whether for children or adults, can save huge amounts primary care trust and local authority are supposed to of money later on, so they are extremely cost-effective. have undertaken to assess the needs of people with People with autistic spectrum disorder deserve society’s autistic spectrum disorder in their area has not really support, which must be properly planned through a produced much in the way of results. Only 21 per cent strategy and with no more delays. of PCTs have actually done these assessments and I hope that the Minister can explain to us why that is 11.18 am and how they are to be implemented. Baroness Verma: My Lords, I, too, join noble Lords I apologise because I must rattle through a series of in congratulating my noble friend Lord Freud on his questions, to which I know that the Minister will write very eloquent maiden speech. It is obvious that my with her responses if she cannot answer now. I want to noble friend will be an exceptional addition to your put on the record during this debate how much I Lordships’ House, to which no doubt he will bring appreciate the efficiency, pleasantness and extreme great experience and wisdom. I thank the noble Baroness, speed with which the noble Baroness always responds Lady Pitkeathley, for introducing this important Bill. to queries and other points raised in debates. I turn It is heartening to witness the high level of cross-party now to my questions. support that the Bill has received. The National Autistic Society has called the response by Members of Parliament Do we know whether each area has a lead person “unprecedented”. My honourable friend Cheryl Gillan responsible for the joint strategic needs assessments to is to be congratulated on her central role in bringing be made by PCTs and local authorities? Who is that this Bill forward, and I am pleased to see her here lead person? We know that the planning of support today. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, and care for adults with autistic spectrum disorder for setting out so clearly and eloquently its provisions needs to start well before the age of 18 when they leave in this House. I will of course have to repeat a number formal schooling. Are we sure that each individual has of points that have already been raised by noble a key worker in the run-up to reaching 18, someone Lords, but it is important to do so. with the right training to be able to identify individual We all recognise the importance of supporting those needs and plan for the future? I am sure that this will suffering from autism in our society and the need to be developed in the strategy, but how many offices of ensure that they can enjoy a quality of life that we the Department for Work and Pensions up and down would wish for ourselves. At Second Reading, my the country have in them professionals trained to honourable friend Cheryl Gillan described some of recognise autistic spectrum disorder and able to advise the shocking detail of the lives of more than 500,000 people accordingly? children and adults with autism. It is worth repeating 895 Autism Bill[LORDS] Autism Bill 896

[BARONESS VERMA] in itself is worrying, but, sadly, it rates better than the some of those statistics today. Some 42 per cent of fact that, in comparison, only two local authorities in children with autism have no friends, and the proportion the country know how many adults with autism live in rises to 75 per cent for adults, while 40 per cent of their areas. This chronic lack of information makes children with autism have been bullied or harassed. any coherent approach to tackling the difficulties faced The number rises to 50 per cent among adults. This by those with autism quite impossible. If these numbers suggests that not only is there a failure to support and are not known, local authorities can, quite simply, not understand children with autism, but that this gets address the needs of people with autism in their areas progressively worse as they grow up This is a story of as they plan their commissioning of services. exclusion and alienation that leads to unacceptable I am certain that we are all aware that such a outcomes for people suffering from autism. Evidence situation is unacceptable. We on these Benches shows that 27 per cent of children with autism have wholeheartedly support the Bill’s aim to improve this been excluded from school and that only 15 per cent of information. On a more specific note, while I acknowledge autistic adults are employed. We must engage with all the view in another place of Phil Hope that the details the related partners to ensure that appropriate information of improving the identification of adults with autism and support is available to children right through to spectrum disorders will be determined during the adulthood. consultation period, can the Minister inform the House For a great many of us, it is self-evident that the Bill of the steps that the Government will take to ensure should enforce statutory requirements on the National that taking such measures will be proactive and focus Health Service and local authorities to look after particularly on those adults who are currently unknown people with autism, rather than only guidance. I celebrate to the services? the consensus that has been developed as the Bill has It is important that co-ordination between children progressed. Earlier, in debates in another place, Phil and adult services offers a seamless transition for Hope suggested that a Bill was not needed. Mr Hope’s children with autism as they reach adulthood. If children statement that, with autism are to reach their full potential, there “legislation can be a very blunt and crude instrument for driving must be improvement in the support they are offered through change”,—[Official Report, Commons, 27/2/09; col. 545.] by local authorities and in the information that they seemed almost unbelievable coming from a Government and their parents are given. As the NAS has stated, characterised by a 12-year long addiction to legislation. 40 per cent of adults with autism live with their It is therefore gratifying to see that this is no longer the parents, relying on them for much of their support. Government’s position and that the Bill has been This is a pernicious situation for these people and their approached in a real, meaningful fashion. families which can be alleviated with the proper support from their local authorities. A seamless transition A good example of where specific guidance is necessary requires a holistic strategy for people with ASD. How is in the statutory guidance for joint strategic needs can the Government ensure that all relevant departments assessments. Currently, only 21 per cent of all JSNAs will participate? Will the support demonstrated by the include any mention of the needs of people with ASD. DCSF for children with autism be built on by working Thus the vast majority of local authority and PCT effectively with the Department of Health and the partnerships are failing to consider the needs of people Department for Works and Pensions? with ASD. The Government have confirmed that good We agree that this joint approach is vital for the practice guidance will be published this year to help success of the autism strategy. For better employment assessors identify the needs of people with autism in opportunities, it must be a key priority for this process. their areas. I do not think it is enough to produce only What measures do the Government intend to take to good practice guidance. Can the Minister confirm that ensure that the DWP plays a central role? statutory guidance will specify that JSNAs must take into consideration the needs of people with ASD? Can It is reassuring that the Government have already I press her for a further assurance that community begun work on the adult autism strategy in line with assessments will be carried out by professionals who the duty the Bill will place upon the Secretary of State have received appropriate levels of autism-specific training? to introduce such a strategy. The Bill offers us a huge Can the Minister also assure the House that this will opportunity to positively affect the experiences of be part of the strategy and statutory guidance? adults with autism. In its current form the statutory guidance provides for access to diagnosis, needs The timing of the publication of statutory guidance, assessments, strategic planning of services and transition set currently at no later than 31 December 2010, planning, and for local partnerships to meet the needs means however that there could be a possible nine-month of adults with autism. The success of this guidance time lag between that and the publication of the and of the strategy will surely depend upon the quality of autism strategy. Would it not be better for them to be their implementation. The implementation plan proposed published together as this would aid local authorities by the Department of Health will be central to this. and PCTs in working out which elements of the strategy Can the Minister tell us whether the implementation will be in statutory requirements? Can the Minister plan is being consulted on as part of the strategy say why there is this delay? consultation? If this is not the case, what action is the The statistics regarding the lack of local information Department of Health taking to develop a robust and about both children and adults with autism make for practical implementation plan? chastening reading. According to the National Autistic It is an indictment of the approach that has pertained Society, two-thirds of local authorities do not know in this country towards autism that over three-quarters how many children with autism live in their areas. This of local authorities do not currently have an autism 897 Autism Bill[10 JULY 2009] Autism Bill 898 training strategy. Will the Minister assure the House I think the fact that many noble Lords stayed in that there will be appropriate guidance and training in their places to support my noble friend’s opening local authorities? remarks tells us how important the issue of autism is It is encouraging that the Bill has provisions to in your Lordships’ House, and I am pleased to say that ensure that statutory guidance includes the training of the Government have clear their commitment to taking staff who provide the relevant services to adults with action to improve services for people with autism. Our such conditions. “Relevant services” do not include means for achieving that is through the development such professionals as disability employment advisers. and publication of the Adult Autism strategy, and Can the Minister give assurances that these DWP most of my remarks will be addressed to adult autism. professionals will have the training to enable them to I shall make a few remarks about children and transition, support adults with ASD in finding employment, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, mentioned, but how this will work in practice? Can she also confirm this is a most important discussion about adult autism. that the Government intend to provide appropriate I pay tribute to Cheryl Gillan for bringing this forward training for all professionals with a significant role to in another place. play in supporting adults with autism? How will this The full public consultation on the content of the be supplied? Is she able to outline whether any measures strategy began on 29 April. I am pleased to say from are to be put into place to ensure that appropriate the outset that the fact that the Bill will not reach the housing, such as warden-controlled accommodation, statute book until after the break, due to the procedures will be available for adults with autism to encourage of the House, does not mean that work on the strategy independent living? and the work contained within the Bill will not begin. It can make the difference between people with We are determined to do what we can, within the autism fulfilling their potential or remaining excluded confines of what we can do, before the Bill reaches the from mainstream society. The National Autistic Society statute book. makes a valid point when it argues in its press release When the Bill was introduced in another place, that, the Minister for Care Services made it clear that, while “exclusion from support increases isolation and can escalate to the Government share the principles which underlined the mental health problems and other serious difficulties”. Bill, we could not support it in the form in which it The commitment from the Government to placing a stood. That is why the Government brought forward legal duty on local authorities to collate and share the amendments that have made the Bill as it stands data on disabled children, with autism as a specific today. category, is to be applauded. Through the Bill, the Government are making clear Clause 1(4) requires the Secretary of State to keep that we will deliver what we have promised. The duty the autism strategy under review and to revise it if on the Secretary of State to prepare and publish a necessary. This will require monitoring at local, regional document setting out a strategy for meeting the needs and national levels. It will also require effective frameworks of adults with autism in England by April 2010 is for evaluation and guidance. For this to be implemented unavoidable. It is a mark of our commitment that successfully, it is important that there will be a designated we not only accept that duty but, indeed, that we person. Can the Minister say how the Department of proposed it. Health intends to monitor the process of the strategy We cannot pre-empt the consultation on the strategy, and what indicators will trigger a review? Will she which will end in September, but with our external commit to having a named individual within the health reference group we have identified the priority themes service who has a responsibility for successful for an adult autism strategy. These are health, social implementation? inclusion, employment, choice and control, and training. It is particularly pleasing that the interpretation On health, we will identify the barriers to accessing clause of the Bill gives responsibility for both diagnosis specialist health interventions and mainstream healthcare and provision of support to local authorities and the services and propose action in the strategy to address National Health Service. It is crucial that there is no this. On social inclusion, the strategy will address fudging of responsibilities or a lack of clarity. I am issues of employment for people with autism, as sure that noble Lords will offer the benefit of their mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Freud. That includes great expertise to ensure that no opportunity to strengthen, building on work to address the commitments in Public clarify or improve the Bill is missed. I look forward to Service Agreement 16 to support more of the most the Minister’s response. socially excluded groups of people into employment. 11.29 am We are commissioning work from the Social Care Institute for Excellence to publish evidence-based good Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I welcome the opening practice guidance in September 2010 on enabling people remarks by my noble friend. I am extremely pleased with autism to have greater choice and control over that she is taking the Bill through the House, and I am the types of support they receive, and we will be delighted to be speaking to it today. working with professional bodies to take action on I add my voice to those welcoming the noble Lord, addressing the training issues. Skills for Care is carrying Lord Freud, in his place in the House. His fame—possibly out a national consultation to create new knowledge notoriety—goes before him, and his maiden speech sets, with the aim of publishing the basic competencies did not disappoint. I am sure that we will find him needed for workers who support people with autism. moving forward with great rapidity on his own Benches, We have already made clear our intention to publish and we can all look forward to that. the final strategy by the end of 2009. We are happy to 899 Autism Bill[LORDS] Autism Bill 900

[BARONESS THORNTON] local authorities. This sets out good practice for the underline our commitment by setting ourselves a statutory strategic planning of health and care services to meet timescale for this, with, of course, a sensible margin the needs of adults with autism. for flexibility. We are commissioning a study on the prevalence of In developing the strategy we are working closely autism in adults—I will come back to that issue in a with a very wide range of stakeholders—a term I hate, moment—and a Public Health Observatory to further but I could not think of another one that encompassed improve the data and knowledge in this area. We the range of bodies with which we are working in acknowledge that data are a major issue. We will terms of the voluntary sector and right across the address issues relating to the collection of data on spectrum. We want to hear from as many people as adults with autism by engaging with local communities, possible whose lives have been touched by autism, voluntary sector experts and carers to work out how whether personally or professionally. to overcome problems with collecting information locally. We have an external reference group comprising Joint strategic needs assessments are a key mechanism people with autism, family, carers and health and for commissioners to understand the needs of local social care professionals involved in the front-line people. Information included in JSNAs about people delivery of services. We will work closely with the with autism is critical to ensuring that better services group over the next few months as we develop firm are planned and commissioned locally. The work we proposals for the final strategy, and we are running a are taking forward, including publishing guidance and series of consultation events and opportunities so that sharing good practice, will help to improve the information we can involve many more people, especially those that local services can access to inform commissioning whose voices are less often heard. decisions. The publication of the strategy will be only the first My noble friend has explained the Government’s step. We will not simply put it into the public domain proposals for children. I add that supporting children and then leave local authorities and the NHS to get on and young people with autism is an important part of with it. I am pleased to tell the noble Baroness, Lady the work we are engaged in through the Aiming High Verma, that the strategy will be supported by a delivery for Disabled Children programme. Supporting young plan. We will establish clear leadership for delivery of people as they move into adulthood is perhaps the the strategy at national, regional and local level, learning area of greatest interest and concern. That is why we from the model set out in the Valuing People Now established the £19 million Transition Support programme strategy for people with learning disabilities, which and why we have listed transition as one of the issues has proved to be successful in delivering and implementing that guidance to support the autism strategy must that strategy. cover. The All-Party Parliamentary Group on Autism’s To give teeth to delivery, we will consult on and latest report, published last week, fits well with the produce detailed guidance to set out what the NHS existing research on young people with autism and and local authorities need to do to achieve the changes with the larger body of research on disabled young that we expect to see described in the strategy. This people and transition. It highlights some key features guidance will be put on a statutory footing for both of what should be available in good transition support, local authorities and NHS bodies. Again, we are happy and I can confirm that these are the issues that our to be tied to a clear date by which that guidance will be forthcoming research study on autism and transitions published. Some might feel that nine months between will explore. I expect that the study will begin in the final publication deadlines for the strategy and the November this year and end in January 2012. I am sorry supporting guidance is rather a long time, but until we that, due to procurement rules around confidentiality, have completed the consultation on the strategy and I am unable to give further details now; as soon as it is are more certain about what the priorities for action possible to give further information, I will certainly are going to be, we cannot start working up meaningful do so. guidance in detail. I shall respond to some of the points made by noble As we are going to place an obligation on the NHS Lords, particularly the noble Baronesses, Lady Tonge and local authorities to act in accordance with the and Lady Verma. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady guidance, we must allow time to consult them so that Tonge, for her remarks and compliments. I always do we do not set requirements that it is impossible for my best to respond to the issues raised in your Lordships’ them to meet in practice. We may well be able to issue House, and I will continue to do so. the guidance considerably earlier than the end of Both noble Baronesses asked why so few JSNAs 2010, but we have taken the prudent step of ensuring cover autism. We accept that this is a problem, which that we have sufficient time to do the job properly. is why we are publishing the good practice guidance. It With the Bill we have made a firm commitment on will set out what a good JSNA looks like so that the key issues that the guidance will need to cover: the people do not fall through the net. We have not to date provision of diagnostic services, information-gathering, collected the data on the numbers of leads and named needs assessment, the strategic planning of services, leads for autism, but I think I shall take that point transition planning, workforce training and local back to the department and ask why that is not leadership. possible, as it seems to be a suggestion that we should We have already moved forward significantly on pursue. our commitment to deliver improvements for adults Both noble Baronesses asked about jobcentres and with autism. On 2 April the Government published trained staff. The DWP is committed to ensuring guidance for commissioners aimed at the NHS and proper training, but I will again pass that question to 901 Autism Bill[10 JULY 2009] Holocaust Bill 902 my noble friend there to see if I can put on the record what indicators would trigger a review when we have specific details about how that is achieved, and I will not actually written the strategy yet, but once we have write to noble Lords with the answers. finalised it and highlighted the outcomes of key actions The noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, asked about the at national, local and regional level that we want to see delays in announcing the prevalence research. In delivered, then we will set in place arrangements for May 2008, we announced prevalence study as a key reporting and evaluation, which will be part of the element in developing our autism strategy but, having strategy. initially pursued a single tender for this research, our The noble Baroness asked about named individuals procurement rules meant that that option could not be in the Department of Health who have responsibility pursued. So that has led to a delay, for which I for successful implementation. We agree that leadership apologise. However, we remain committed to ensuring at all levels is very important for the delivery of this that the study starts this year and once it reports, we strategy. We have a specialist adviser on autism, and will have a better picture of the numbers of adults have had since 2007. Our current adviser, Elaine Hill, with autism. This research will aim to inform strategic leads on developing the cross-government strategy planning at central and local level. and is working to ensure that the strategy consultation The noble Baroness asked what we are doing to reflects the views of stakeholders not only in the wider ensure that health and social services share resources world but also across government. to support people with autism. Many people with I am pleased to give the Government’s support for autism who use learning disability services already the Bill. I hope that the House will agree that, along benefit from pooled budget arrangements. Some 83 per with the action that is now under way, it will deliver cent of local authorities have a formal arrangement real improvements to the lives of people with autism for a pooled budget with the NHS for services for and their families. learning-disabled people aged 18 to 64. I do not pretend that these always work perfectly, but the existing legislation makes provision for local authorities and the NHS to 11.45 am make use of pooled budgets, and we certainly encourage Baroness Pitkeathley: My Lords, I thank all noble them to do so. Lords who have spoken. Their wisdom, experience As usual, the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, set me and commitment have been apparent in their many exam questions. I will endeavour to answer contributions. I particularly thank the noble Lord, some, but if I cannot answer them all, I will write with Lord Freud, whose maiden speech managed to be the answers. The noble Baroness asked whether statutory moving, elegant and robust. We look forward to many guidance will specify that JSNAs must cover autism more contributions from him. and that assessments should be done only by properly I thank my noble friend the Minister as well. Her trained staff. We cannot pre-empt the consultation on efficiency and caring have been acknowledged here guidance but we would expect it to address this area. today, and that has been more than apparent in her I think that I have already addressed the noble reply and the impressive way in which she has dealt Baroness’s question about how we expect JSNAs to with all the questions. I, too, am disappointed that function. I also think that I have addressed the issue of there will be a delay in getting this Bill on to the statute the National Autistic Society’s briefing, how we are book. I wish we could get Royal Assent today. None working with it, and the fact that it is an integral part the less, I am reassured that work will continue apace, of the consultation process. even though, for us, there will be a certain amount of delay. I can confirm that we are very keen to get the views In Herefordshire, where I live, I have been helping a of people who are less often heard. We are using targeted family with an adult autistic son and watching the discussions and e-forum one-to-one questionnaires. struggle that they have had to understand a system We are using voluntary organisations, the health service which may be more familiar to many of us but is not at local level and are carrying out written and e-mail to them, all the time coping with their son’s behaviour, approaches in groups and workshops. his distress, and the distress it causes them. When I see I think that I have addressed the question of getting them tomorrow, I shall be a little more hopeful about Royal Assent before the Summer Recess. The his future. I thank all noble Lords. recommended minimum intervals between stages of Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee the Bill mean that this cannot be done, but that does of the whole House. not mean that work is not moving forward. The noble Baroness asked why the strategy and the guidance could not be published at the same time. I have already explained that we cannot begin to develop Holocaust (Return of Cultural Objects) the guidance before the strategy is written. Until we Bill know what the autism strategy will say, we should not Second Reading publish the guidance. This is a no-win situation: of course we want to implement this but we need to make sure that we get it right. 11.47 am We have made it very clear that training is a key Moved By Lord Janner of Braunstone area for public service professionals in our autism strategy. On monitoring progress, it is too early to say That the Bill be read a second time. 903 Holocaust Bill[LORDS] Holocaust Bill 904

Lord Janner of Braunstone: My Lords, I am delighted trustees then have a discretionary power whether to to introduce this Bill. I declare an interest: my entire return the object. So it is clear that there must be family, alas, in Latvia and Lithuania—every one of consensus for there to be restitution; the Bill cannot them—was murdered by the Nazis and had all their operate where there is any disagreement. possessions stolen by their killers. So, sadly, I understand The Bill applies only to a finite list of institutions, very well the need for survivors and their descendants outlined in Clause 1, and is applicable only to the Nazi to be able to reclaim at least some of what they lost era. As Andrew Dismore said: and had stolen. “It is not a Trojan horse for any other art works or cultural Last month, as chairman of the Holocaust Educational items”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/6/09; col. 1043.] Trust, I joined our Government’s delegation at the Clause 4 ensures that the legislation ceases to have Holocaust Era Assets Conference in Prague. It underlined effect after 10 years, to give sufficient time for claimants the urgent need for restitution of a range of assets for to come forward while giving the necessary long-term families of the victims of the Holocaust, a process certainty to our national collections. It is estimated which began with the Nazi Gold Conference here in that there may be anything up to 20 looted items in London in 1997. Our excellent head of delegation in our museums. Prague, Susan Hyland, referred in her statement to the It is clear that the law as it stands is leading to conference to the passage of this Bill and to the unjust and unfair outcomes, and two cases, both heard Government’s support for it, support which is hugely by the spoliation panel in 2008, demonstrate why. A appreciated. Indeed, the need to ensure that this kind claim was made for two pieces of porcelain from a of legislation is passed across Europe is the key reason Viennese collection, one in the Fitzwilliam Museum whywewereinPrague. and the other in the British Museum. The former was The Bill provides a mechanism for the return to restituted, but the panel believed that it could not their rightful owners of cultural objects held in national recommend restitution of the second piece, because it collections, objects which were looted during the Nazi was said that there was no sign that the Government period from 1933 to 1945. It gives trustees of national were going to change the law. It therefore awarded— museums the same power to return an object as that happily—an ex gratia payment. held by governing bodies of other public museums, so This vital and, I hope and believe, uncontroversial will correct an anomaly in relation to national collections, Bill prevents similar inconsistencies and allows at least which are currently prevented by law from deaccessioning. some survivors and their families finally to recover I both commend and am grateful to my friend what they have lost. I was delighted that the Bill Andrew Dismore, Member of Parliament, for his hard received all-party support in the House of Commons; work in introducing this Private Member’s Bill in the I hope that it will receive the same united support in House of Commons and getting it through. He has this House. It provides a clear, narrowly defined and campaigned on this issue for many years; indeed, we consensus-oriented proposition, with appropriate worked with others back in 2000 to set up the Spoliation safeguards, for deaccession from national collections. Advisory Panel. I remember arguing the case for settling I wholeheartedly commend it to the House. I beg the very first claim, for a painting now in the possession to move. of the Tate Gallery, “A View of Hampton Court Palace” by Jan Griffier the Elder. I helped those who 11.55 am set the panel’s terms of reference and remain entirely Lord Haskel: My Lords, I am delighted to speak in supportive of its continuingly important work. support of this Bill and I congratulate my noble friend As I have said, the Government’s support for the on bringing it before us today—the day of his birthday Bill is welcome and much appreciated. I especially lunch. As he has said, this is a simple Bill to enable thank the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media trustees to return cultural objects looted by the Nazis and Sport, Barbara Follett, and her officials for their to their rightful owners. Quite rightly, safeguards are commitment to the legislation. I know that the built in and it still leaves intact the rights and Government have long made clear their agreement in responsibilities of trustees and directors to look after principle to legislate and that they had hoped to the cultural objects under their supervision and control. change the law with a heritage protection Bill, which It would have been quite easy to do nothing. After unfortunately was not in the Queen’s Speech. I thank all, these events occurred some 70 years ago and the also the Under-Secretary of State’s predecessor, Margaret objects are few in number. It says something about the Hodge, for her efforts when we met and corresponded values of our Government and our country that we about this, and I thank all our political parties for are taking action to right a wrong and to correct an their support for the legislation. Anne Webber, from injustice that occurred some time ago. However, the the Commission for Looted Art in Europe, and Jon need for the Bill has been apparent for some time. Had Benjamin, from the Board of Deputies of British it appeared earlier, other countries could not have Jews, deserve special praise for lending their considerable used our delay as an excuse for their inaction. But it is expertise, and for working so hard over so many years now on its way in a dignified and trusting manner, to help us to pass the Bill. which does not involve lawyers and all their costly and Two conditions must be satisfied for there to be lengthy adversarial arguments but relies on the good deaccession. First, the spoliation panel must recommend sense and discretion of those who make up the spoliation that the object be returned and, secondly, the Secretary panel. As my noble friend said, they have worked hard of State, and Scottish Ministers in the case of Scottish and conscientiously for some years. I, too, would like museums, must approve the recommendations. In the to place on record my thanks for, and congratulations event that these conditions are met, the national museums’ on, their work. 905 Holocaust Bill[10 JULY 2009] Holocaust Bill 906

My noble friend will remember that this was the 12.01 pm way in which the Government righted another wrong 10 years ago. He will remember that, 10 years ago, I Baroness Warnock: My Lords, I very much welcome announced from that Dispatch Box the enemy property this Bill and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Janner, payment scheme, which appointed a similar independent on bringing it forward. I declare an interest as a panel under the chairmanship of my noble and learned member of the Spoliation Advisory Panel, since it was friend Lord Archer of Sandwell to adjudicate on first set up by the Secretary of State for Culture, claims for compensation to victims of Nazi persecution Media and Sport, under the extremely able chairmanship whose property was confiscated by the British Government of Sir David Hirst, to whom I pay warm tribute. He during the Second World War under the trading with has worked extraordinarily hard with the other members the enemy legislation. Many of the claimants were of of the panel, but the burden of the work has largely course Jews fleeing persecution. fallen on him. My noble friend has indicated that there are few The terms of reference of the panel are as narrow objects relating to the Bill; the number, 20, has been as the terms of reference of the Bill. The concern of mentioned in another place. When the enemy property the panel has been extremely limited; it has been to payment scheme was announced, there appeared to be recommend a fair solution to cases in which cultural few possible claimants then, but the existence of the objects were looted, stolen or disposed of by forced scheme and the attendant publicity stimulated and sale in the Nazi era—that is, between the beginning of encouraged others to come forward, many with modest 1933 and the end of 1945. The panel has examined but justified claims, and not only for money—one was nine cases that have been referred to it voluntarily for a gold cigarette case, another for small items of since it was set up. In three of these, the preferred jewellery sent through the post. I hope that the same solution would have been restoration of the objects to will happen again and that this Bill will encourage their rightful owners, but in two cases out of the three more people with justified claims to come forward. this was not possible because of the law against Perhaps they have not come forward earlier because deacquisitioning that governed the national museums the objects are modest, but those objects may well of England and Scotland. The law does not cover any have family or sentimental value to them and their museums in Wales or Northern Ireland. descendants. In 2000, the Select Committee on Culture, Media I say now as I said 10 years ago how much I and Sport recommended that legislative barriers that welcome the low-key and dignified manner in which prevented morally proper restoration should be removed. these wrongs are being put right. Some of the objects In the same year, the advisory panel recommended were taken because the owners were Jewish. Dealing that permissive legislation should be introduced. The with the return of these cultural objects in a high-profile panel’s recommendation in 2000 followed a particularly manner would only add to the feeling that all Jews are tricky and fascinating case, in which not an individual victims. That is why I approve not only of the Bill but but a library was claiming restoration of a rare Beneventan also of the manner in which it will work. Perhaps I missal, apparently looted after the destruction of Monte should declare that I myself am an immigrant. One Cassino, sold to Sotheby’s by a returning British officer, thing that immigrants do not want to pass on to their now deceased, bought by the British Museum from children is the feeling that we are victims owed something Sotheby’s and then in due course passed on to the by society. On the contrary, we want them to feel British Library, where it now is. The missal was extremely fortunate that they have an opportunity to contribute valuable as a beautiful example of a kind of local to life and society in this country. The Chief Rabbi script that gave, along with the words of the Mass, a made exactly the same point in his latest book. So we kind of indication of how these words should be sung. must make certain that the return of these objects It was a kind of early attempt at written musical does not further the victim culture. notation. The view of the panel was that this priceless The Nazis took many objects of Jewish culture and object belonged in the place where scholars were most banned works of Jewish composers and writers. They likely to benefit from and enjoy it. There are other even banned the music of Mendelssohn. The intention examples in the same area of Italy of this kind of was to erase the Jewish cultural presence. In this script, although not exactly the same. The case did not intention, they did not succeed. The rich heritage of seem to fall exactly under the terms of reference, Jewish culture and the effect of the Jewish presence on because there is no particular evidence that the missal European culture continue. For the past 10 years, the was looted by the Nazis, nor was it a Jewish family European Association for Jewish Culture has awarded who was claiming restoration. Nevertheless, it fell over 100 grants to European artists, writers and composers, squarely within the time of our remit, and the looting both Jewish and non-Jewish, who have created new would not have happened if it had not been for the works based on the European Jewish cultural experience. war. Unfortunately, the present Bill, if it becomes law, The association is to be congratulated on its work in will not be retrospective, but the principle that informs adding new works to a rich heritage. This has always the Bill is absolutely right, as exemplified in this particular seemed to me a more positive response to attacks on case. Jewish culture. Finally, all the recommendations that the spoliation As my noble friend said, there is still lots to do, but panel has made and all those that will be made by the this is a welcome step in the right direction. I thank all new advisory panel are based on moral considerations. those who have worked on this Bill for their hard work Legally, the statutory time for complaints of wrongful and endeavour and I wish it a quick passage through acquisition or failure to take proper account of provenance your Lordships’ House. I support the Bill. has long been passed, in all these cases. Our task on 907 Holocaust Bill[LORDS] Holocaust Bill 908

[BARONESS WARNOCK] indeed profit from their crimes; it is also putting on the panel was to ask whether, nevertheless, there were show something that the owners never meant to be moral reasons for recommending restitution or seen in such circumstances. It has ceased to be an compensation. There is no danger of a slippery slope object of beauty and one that museums can be proud argument being deployed here—and your Lordships of or use for educational and aesthetic aims. The will know that I am not a friend of that type of spectator cannot look at it without seeing the pain and argument in any circumstances. Each case will be betrayal that led it to be situated there in a national examined separately by the advisory panel and its museum. It taints the spectators who knowingly take advice passed on; each will be examined with extreme advantage of the presence of the picture there and it care on an individual basis, so there is no danger of speaks to them of loss and war, not creativity and any extension of this kind of order for deacquisition. insight. It is a well known principle in physics that the This has happened in the past and will happen in the act of observation changes the object observed and future; each case will be examined separately. Moreover, there is something of that principle in our viewing of there is a sunset clause, which ensures that there will looted art. be re-examination of the case. Sadly, the number of The Bill has an exemplary background of preparation. cases is likely to fall—indeed, the number of cases The UK set up the Spoliation Advisory Panel in 2000 coming before the panel has fallen and is now a trickle, consequent on the Washington principles of the 1998 because the families, sadly, die out. conference on Holocaust assets, agreed by all the then I recommend the Bill to the House as absolutely EU states, and a total of 44 states in all. The panel timely, if not belated, and an extremely good example provides mediation and takes moral issues into account, of just and fair legislation. as stressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock. Its existence recognises that the people who lost property 12.09 pm in the Nazi era face many obstacles in proving legal Lord Strabolgi: My Lords, I am very glad to follow ownership in the civil courts, though they may also the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock. I am sure that we choose that route. The museum directors set up a are all grateful to my noble friend Lord Janner for working group in 1998 to establish principles governing introducing this Bill, which, as he said, has already provenance and spoliation; the Select Committee on been passed by another place. Culture, Media and Sport supported this approach in its seventh report and the advisory panel recommended The power that the Bill gives to national museums this legislation. The Bill fills a gap because other and galleries to return a cultural object taken by the museums already have a power to return or to offer Nazi regime from mainly Jewish collections in the compensation. The museum may, however, still refuse occupied countries is long overdue. The confiscation to carry out the recommendation of the panel and the of so many cultural treasures from private collectors Secretary of State. The Bill passed through the Commons by the Nazi leaders in order to line their own pockets swiftly. was big business. During the Nazi occupation of Paris, so many paintings were taken that the authorities had This is not the Elgin Marbles situation, because in to take over the Jeu de Paume in the Tuileries to house the circumstances covered by the Bill there is a known them. These were then sold through intermediaries, victim of a strictly defined period. The victims were mainly to art dealers in Switzerland, which was a ideological targets of the destruction of a people neutral country. The Swiss dealers would sell on the along with their goods; indeed, the looting possibilities works of art either to other dealers or to private may have provided an extra inducement to carry on to collectors in Switzerland and the United States, who mass extermination. This form of looting was recognised bought them in good faith. Many, of course, must as early as 1943 by the Inter-Allied Declaration. have changed hands several times during the past The recent Terezin Declaration of the June Prague 60 years, when the original provenance was not known. Holocaust-era assets conference called on nations to Some must have arrived at our national museums and do exactly what is being done in the Bill, and the UK, galleries through gifts and in lieu of inheritance tax. which had a delegation to the conference, was praised Most of the original owners died in the horrors of for its initiative. I echo the sentiments of the noble the Holocaust, when whole families were murdered in Lord, Lord Freud, in his brilliant and moving maiden the extermination camps of Auschwitz and Treblinka. speech earlier today, and of the noble Lord, Lord There are no heirs in many cases. But there are heirs in Haskel, in expressing gratitude to this country for its some cases, who are entitled to claim. The Bill allows movement towards the correct principles in this situation the item to be returned if the advisory panel recommends and for its tolerance and nurturing of those who came it and this is approved by the Secretary of State. This is here in 1939 and earlier, deprived of all their worldly surely the least that we can do. I support the Bill goods, and who had to rebuild their careers. wholeheartedly and hope that your Lordships will give The declaration of the June Prague conference it a Second Reading. together with the joint declaration by the European Commission at the same conference reminded nations 12.11 pm that they should support intensified systematic provenance Baroness Deech: My Lords, this is no ordinary Bill research in archives, make the results known on the before your Lordships’ House. It is a short one but a internet and establish mechanisms to assist claimants. complex one. Art is an ethical issue. Displaying looted The Bill’s provisions are a model for what should art, once it is known to be such, is not just an invasion happen in relation to real property looted during the of privacy and a demonstration that wrongdoers may Nazi era, all of which is situated in the European 909 Holocaust Bill[10 JULY 2009] Holocaust Bill 910

Union countries—not here, of course—where the conflict historical background was further expanded by the and the seizures took place. The Terezin Declaration noble Baroness, Lady Deech. I was particularly happy likewise called on those countries that have not yet to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, whose made restitution—the most egregious of them is Poland, words of wisdom will no doubt have struck a chord and here I declare a possible interest—to do so along across the House. these lines, and Her Majesty’s Government by signature If I appear to be focusing on matters that might be have aligned themselves with this. I commend the Bill thought to be Committee points, I do not necessarily to your Lordships and look for ultimate justice and expect them to be dealt with today, but I hope that peace of mind for those who lost their lives in the war when the Minister replies, he may bear them in mind and whose well chosen artefacts are the living and and, if they can easily be dismissed, he will do so permanent reminder of their lost existence. today, or will otherwise reflect upon them. 12.17 pm I first came to grips with the problem that we are Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I speak in the gap grappling with here as long ago as 1964 when I worked because I did not know that I could be here today. in a distinguished law firm on Wall Street. Our clients However, I am very glad to follow the noble Baroness, were a family of Czech refugees who had suffered Lady Deech, who has made a powerful speech—indeed despoliation of their inheritance at the hands of the everyone who has participated in the debate has done Nazis. It is with some wry wonder that I think that it so. I congratulate my noble friend, whom I have happened so long ago, yet there are still evidences of known for many, many years, on promoting this overdue the injustice that have not been put right. Bill. He has done a service to Parliament and to many That brings me to the duration of the Bill and its people who have suffered, as the noble Baroness said, scope. It appears that it is perfectly possible that works at the hands of the Nazis. They are a depleting band of that were looted during the period that the Bill covers people but it is nevertheless important that both Houses— may emerge and even come into the hands of institutions the Bill has excited no opposition in either—should within the United Kingdom other than those listed in support what my noble friend is trying to do. The Bill the Bill. I know that the auction houses Sotheby’s and is designed to ensure that an equitable solution can be Christie’s do good research into the provenance of available to those who have suffered so much. They works of art in many public collections and further deserve no less. afield. It is conceivable that there could be other Perhaps I may also pay a tribute to the father of my discoveries in the years ahead. I have heard, and I have noble friend Lord Strabolgi. He did so much to excite no reason to doubt it, that the number of cultural my interest and awaken my concern about so many objects that has been mentioned is what is known now. issues which this Bill represents. He spoke when I was I wonder whether it might be worth while adding to a child and I listened assiduously to him. I am glad to the Bill, perhaps at a later stage, a power by order to say that my noble friend has very worthily followed in add to the list of national museums any other recognised his footsteps. He spoke brilliantly today and I wish national museum that comes into possession of such a only that we could hear him more often. work of art at a later date. It is intended that the Bill The Bill is thoroughly welcome. As my noble friend will expire after 10 years. The sunset clause is an Lord Janner said, it is belated, but it is very important indication that this is not a matter that will go on because it gives hope to so many people who would indefinitely.However, there is still considerable movement otherwise feel forgotten. of art around Europe and the wider world, and there are those with a commercial interest in discovering 12.20 pm where it is moving to who may, in the course of time, Baroness Uddin: My Lords, I hesitantly rise to pay come up with information that would be relevant but my tribute to my noble friend Lord Janner and all not covered. noble Lords who have spoken. Given their prolific The Bill, perfectly properly, does not deal with the knowledge and understanding of this matter, I am tax issues that may be incidental to its effectiveness. extremely hesitant, but I was emotionally pushed by Although some reference was made to this in another what I have heard to support this Second Reading. It place, it would be of interest to know the Government’s is a great tribute to my noble friend’s work. I congratulate thinking about this. I understand that any proposals him and salute all noble Lords who have spoken in the to change our tax law to take account of those issues debate, although I missed some of it. It gives great would be handled in a finance Bill, but it is important hope to the relatives of those who lost their lives in the that the concerns of this House are taken into Holocaust and brings back a sense of honour and consideration in drafting such legislation in future. As pride. I hope that the Bill is supported by all sides of a result of its almost de minimis nature, it would seem the House. sensible to give some thought to these matters during the passage of this legislation. For example, what 12.21 pm would be the appropriate level of capital gains tax to Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, I begin by be paid if an object is sold after being returned to its expressing gratitude to the noble Lord who introduced initial owner? If an ex gratia payment is made, should the Bill and appreciation to Andrew Dismore in another it be free of tax? Should there be exemption from place for so persistently pursuing these objects. All inheritance tax? If someone donates an item to a that needs to be said about the purposes of the Bill has museum that is subsequently proven to be of doubtful been said with great eloquence during the debate, provenance or to belong to someone else, should the notably by the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, and the tax advantage gained by donating the item be lost? It 911 Holocaust Bill[LORDS] Holocaust Bill 912

[LORD MACLENNAN OF ROGART] to honour them and the members of their families seems to me that it should not. These are all matters of who perished, and to pursue the course of justice and substance that are worthy of consideration before they restitution as soon as possible. are confined to the footnotes of some future finance Act. The Holocaust was a horrendous and shameful I understand that the Bill has been helped by the period and its legacy weighs on us all. The noble Lord, support of the Government, and a very useful Explanatory Lord Janner, was right when he noted that history will Memorandum was prepared by the Government in judge the nations who participated by their conduct consultation with the noble Lord. For that, we are today. Immediately after the war, restitution of property very grateful. I am not entirely sure whether the language was not a major priority for the allies, leading to many of the Bill was similarly subject to a dialogue with the objects being scattered around Europe and lost to Government to the extent that the Bill reflects the their owners. As time progresses and these owners Government’s thinking in its detail. I shall mention a become fewer, the Bill is one of the last chances to couple of points that might be of slight help. ensure that justice prevails and a right which has been denied for decades is recognised. There is a reference to Scottish Ministers having to be consulted in the event of objects being in the listed There are some tax implications that I am aware of, cultural institutions in Scotland. It is not entirely clear and the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, whether those Scottish Ministers are Ministers of the touched on them. To me they sounded frighteningly United Kingdom Government, Ministers of the Scottish complex and I do not pretend to understand them. I Executive or both. I think this may be a matter of will certainly not articulate them, lest any noble Lord standard statutory interpretation, but I am not entirely challenge me on the details. Is the Minister confident sure that it is. I should therefore be grateful for elucidation that these issues have properly been thought through? because there is a Scottish dimension to this. I understand We need to be aware of the law of unintended that the Scottish Parliament has already been consulted consequences. For instance, it would indeed be a harsh about the purposes of the Bill and that a reply is result if a work restored to a claimant shortly before awaited. It would be inconceivable if approval were his or her death had to be sold or returned to a public not to be forthcoming from that quarter. collection to pay or minimise the liability of the claimant’s I hope that these remarks are constructive. They estate for inheritance tax—a point well made by the reflect my strong support and that of my noble friends noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart. for the purposes of the Bill. Some concerns have been expressed externally about the possibility of it being The Bill also makes it clear that it is in no way widened to cover bigger and broader issues, but the extendable to the problems of regions and times outside Bill has been cleverly drafted to deal with specific the Nazi era, even though claimants might argue that issues, which it does very well. I hope that it will pass. the circumstances in which cultural and religious objects were removed from their original societies were of a comparable severity. However, the nature and extent 12.30 pm of the Nazi atrocities were quite exceptional—orders Earl Attlee: My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the of magnitude greater than the disasters of Bosnia and noble Lord, Lord Janner of Braunstone, for introducing Rwanda. There should be no implication of an argument, the Bill, and for the careful way in which he has by extension, that if claims for cultural objects wrongfully explained how it will work. We should all pass our taken by the Nazis can be accepted, so too should congratulations to Mr Andrew Dismore in another claims for deaccession arising from other circumstances place on piloting it through that House. in other eras. The Museums Association’s code of I have heard nothing today with which I disagree. ethics for museums, which was updated in 2007, already The one certain way of finding ourselves in another covers claims regarding objects from other periods, holocaust is either to forget about the events of the and sets out agreed ethical codes and standards that Nazi era or to deny them—simply to airbrush them allow museums to deaccession items from their collections, from history. We must never, ever do that. I have subject—in the case of national museums—to statutory personally seen, both in Bosnia and Rwanda, how limitations. The museums and libraries authority has difficult reconstruction can be post-genocide or ethnic ensured that its accreditation scheme has incorporated cleansing. Some believe that installing democratic processes this code of ethics. must be the highest priority in these situations, but Finally, although the existing Spoliation Advisory security, justice and the rule of law can be more Panel is able to offer a swift, independent and transparent important. Property rights are an important component assessment of claims in a way that is cost-effective for of this, but are clearly very difficult to provide for. all parties, its recommendations are rightly only advisory. The Bill marks a positive step forward in the moral The power of independent decision-making remains and legal task of redressing some of the wrongs committed with the museums. This will maintain the arm’s-length in the Nazi era in regard to the looting of cultural principle on which our national museums, galleries objects. The Holocaust Educational Trust and other and libraries are governed. Can the Minister confirm bodies have done a good job, along with the Government, that the existing Spoliation Advisory Panel will be the in helping Holocaust survivors and their relatives trace advisory panel mentioned in the Bill? and recover lost works of art and in keeping up the profile of the cause. A legal solution to this problem In conclusion, we on these Benches support the Bill need be delayed no longer. While some Holocaust and look forward to it receiving Royal Assent in due survivors are still alive we must concentrate our efforts course. 913 Holocaust Bill[10 JULY 2009] Holocaust Bill 914

12.36 pm Setting to rights the terrible crimes committed during the Second World War is just as important for us The Minister for Communications, Technology and today—perhaps even more so—as it was following the Broadcasting (Lord Carter of Barnes): My Lords, I am defeat of the Axis powers in the 1940s. The widespread pleased, if somewhat humbled, to represent the and systematic seizure of cultural property in territories Government on this Private Member’s Bill, and to occupied by or under the control of the Nazis and follow what has been an august range of speakers, all their allies has been recognised in international of whom have demonstrated their personal interest in declarations—the latest as recently as last week, as I many instances. Speaking personally, listening to some have just said—as warranting particular recognition of the personal passion and commitment has been an and deserving of special treatment for more than half experience in understanding the reality of the work of a century.The 1943 Inter-allied Declaration, for example, the Spoliation Advisory Panel, and the case and need signed by 16 countries, including the United Kingdom, for permissive legislation. I echo the earlier comments resulted in a commitment by those states to do all in of another noble Lord about the power of the particular their power to defeat the methods of dispossession in points made by my noble friend Lord Strabolgi. There territory under enemy occupation or control. At the were some powerful reminders, particularly from the 1998 Washington conference on Holocaust-era assets, noble Baroness, Lady Deech, that an essential element 44 states, including all EU member states, adopted of the enjoyment of art is informed by the knowledge non-binding principles to assist in resolving issues of its provenance involved in the act of observation. relating to Nazi confiscated art, and the Vilnius Forum That should be borne in mind by the institution as well Declaration in 2000 asked all Governments to undertake as the participants. every reasonable effort to achieve restitution of cultural assets looted during the Holocaust era to their original This whole debate has reminded me of the importance owners. of restitution, of perseverance on issues that people care about, and the mechanisms that acknowledge the Compared with many other European countries, morality, as well as the legality, of claims. As an aside, the recovery of looted art has not been a major it is also, in procedural terms, a shining example of the problem in numerical terms in the United Kingdom. power of a Private Member’s Bill to make a real Unlike the Netherlands or France, for example, where difference. Andrew Dismore deserves both thanks and many hundreds of works of art have been returned to admiration for what my honourable friend in another claimants over the years, very few looted paintings place described as his “sleepover technique” in securing and other cultural objects have been uncovered in UK a Private Member’s Bill. The Government have offered museums. Indeed, the Spoliation Advisory Panel, our strong support to the Bill in the other place, and established in 2000 to provide advice to claimants and have worked closely with the honourable Member for institutions on what might be appropriate solutions, Hendon, who introduced it, to ensure that it both has considered only nine cases in the nine years it has matched the Government’s own policy objectives in been operational. The honourable Member for Hendon this area and was in good shape for debate and said in the other place that there were a possible consideration by this House. further 20 cases in the pipeline. Indeed, this was referred to by two noble Lords today. I do not know what I am doubly pleased and personally honoured that knowledge the noble Lord, Lord Janner, has of these the Bill has been taken up by my noble friend Lord but the Government—and I think that I can speak for Janner, who is so knowledgeable on these issues and the Spoliation Advisory Panel on this point—would who has campaigned for so many years for the restitution certainly find it helpful to know more about these of property belonging to Holocaust victims. Indeed, potential claims, if for no other reason than to be able he was instrumental in arranging the Nazi-looted gold to plan and prepare for the work. conference that took place in London in 1997. As the However, this debate and this legislation are not noble Lord mentioned in his opening speech, he has determined by the scale of the problem or the number only recently returned from the Conference on Holocaust of applications. As several noble Lords have said, it is Era Assets in the Czech Republic, where he delivered a about recognising an overwhelming moral imperative powerful statement on his personal involvement in to ensure that, where the Spoliation Advisory Panel this work and the efforts that have been made finds that it would be appropriate for a museum to internationally to address the restitution of Holocaust-era return a lost item, it is able to do so. That can only be assets. The outcome of the conference was the Terezin right and I am sure nobody would argue against that. declaration, supported by 46 countries, which seeks, among other things, to further efforts to bring about As regards what the Bill seeks to do, there are the restitution of Jewish cultural property lost during currently inconsistencies in how claims made to the the Nazi era. That is, of course, highly relevant to our panel are resolved. In the case of the national museums debate today. listed in the Bill, primary legislation prevents the trustees removing an item from the permanent collection in If any further evidence of the commitment of the this way and, when the panel recommends the return noble Lord, Lord Janner, were needed, I am aware of an item, claimants are offered an ex gratia payment that he has regrettably had to cancel an important instead. However, university museums and those run birthday celebration—I am not sure which number it by local authorities are not prevented by similar express is, or that he would thank me for mentioning it even if statutory restrictions from so returning an item. As I was—in order to be here today. I hope the House will the noble Lord, Lord Janner, highlighted, a good take note of that and join me in wishing him many example of how this inconsistency can arise was happy returns for tomorrow. demonstrated recently in the Spoliation Advisory Panel’s 915 Holocaust Bill[LORDS] Holocaust Bill 916

[LORD CARTER OF BARNES] Member’s Bill which, I am glad to say, following a eighth report on a claim presented by the same claimant number of amendments made in the other place, now for two pieces of porcelain, one in the British Museum closely resembles the policy proposals we had intended and the other in the Fitzwilliam Museum in Cambridge. to take forward in 2008. The panel found in favour of the claimant and The Bill will give the 17 national museums in England recommended that the item in the Fitzwilliam, which and Scotland named in the Bill a power to transfer an is not subject to a statutory restriction on the disposal object in their collection, where it is found to have of objects in the collection, be returned to them and been lost between 1933 and 1945 by an advisory panel that they receive an ex gratia payment for the item in designated by the Secretary of State. In answer to the the British Museum, which is currently prohibited by question of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that will be statute from returning such an object. the Spoliation Advisory Panel. This is also the case While, throughout the history of the panel, claimants where the Secretary of State, with the consent of have generally been content to receive an ex gratia Scottish Ministers—in answer to the noble Lord, Lord payment, the Government believe that museums should Maclennan, devolved Scottish Ministers—has approved not be prevented by statute from deciding to return an the advisory panel’s recommendation in respect of a object following the recommendation of the panel. In Scottish museum. The intention is to designate the its seventh report in 2000, the Select Committee for Spoliation Advisory Panel, whose authority and advice Culture, Media and Sport, stated: is widely acknowledged and respected in this field. “We consider that the case for special treatment of alleged Thus, the power to return an object would apply only wrongful taking during the period 1933 to 1945 has been convincingly to those cases where two conditions were satisfied. established”— First, the advisory panel must uphold the claim and I believe that point was echoed by the noble Earl, Lord recommend the return of the object and, secondly, Attlee— Ministers must approve that recommendation. “It is appropriate that the Spoliation Advisory Panel has been The power in the Bill will not override the conditions created to ascertain the facts of individual cases and to recommend attaching to objects held in trust. The requirement an outcome for claims which are upheld. While there are merits to that the Secretary of State must approve the panel’s a solution which secures continuing public access to an object in a museum, that interest must be seen as subordinate to the interests recommendation reflects current practice and provides and wishes of a rightful owner. Where a claim has been upheld a safeguard in the unlikely event of an irrational and restitution is seen as appropriate by all parties, it is essential recommendation by the panel. that legislative barriers to such restitution be removed”. The Bill includes a sunset clause, which will ensure As the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, recalled that the power in the Bill ceases to have effect 10 years from first-hand experience, in its second report on the from the date of Royal Assent. The noble Lord, Lord Beneventan Missal in 2005, the panel, guided by the Maclennan, asked whether the duration of the sunset advice of the Select Committee, recommended that clause was appropriate. I will clarify that in an answer legislation be introduced to amend the British Museum to him, but my understanding is that there was a Act 1963, the British Library Act 1972 and the Museums significant degree of due diligence before that term and Galleries Act 1992 so as to permit restitution of was specified in the Bill. It was judged that that period objects in this category. would balance the interests of providing access to In 2006, the Department for Culture, Media and restitution with some planning certainty for the Sport conducted a public consultation on the issue of institutions. As I recall, it also reflected the majority of Nazi era restitution. the views expressed in the consultation. The Bill consists of four clauses. The bodies to Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, I am most which the Bill applies are listed in Clause 1. The power grateful to the Minister for giving way. Before he to return victims’ property is set out in Clause 2. This leaves the point that the noble Baroness made, she said clause sets out the two conditions that need to be met that the Bill was not retroactive. Consequently, I am to trigger the power for the trustees of one of the uncertain whether, following the passage of the Bill, it institutions named in the Bill to transfer an object will be possible to deal with the Beneventan Missal from its collections. Clause 3 defines the advisory case. Could the Minister help us on that? panel for the purposes of the Act, as has been discussed. The panel is to be designated by the Secretary of State Lord Carter of Barnes: My Lords, I will seek an and he or she may designate only a panel whose answer and return to that, along with the noble Lord’s functions consist of considering claims in respect of other searching Committee-like questions, in a second. objects relating to events during the Nazi era—1933 to The conclusion was that removing the statutory 1945. Clause 4 deals with the Short Title, extent, restrictions that stop museums deaccessioning works commencement and the sunset clause. of art lost during the Nazi era would be beneficial to We have had discussions with the devolved all. It was also felt that legislation should include a Administrations on the Bill. There is no need for these sunset clause. I think that point was raised earlier by powers to apply to institutions in Wales or Northern the noble Lord. Ireland, because the principal museums there are not In 2008, the Government planned to include clauses subject to the same sort of statutory restrictions on in the Heritage Protection Bill to allow national museums the return of an object to a claimant. On the other to return works of art lost during the Nazi era but it hand, Scottish national museums are subject to the was not possible for the Bill to be included in the same sort of statutory restrictions and are included in congested legislative programme. The Government were the Bill, following the passing of a legislative consent therefore understandably keen to support this Private motion in the Scottish Parliament. 917 Holocaust Bill[10 JULY 2009] Driving Instruction Bill 918

I shall conclude by providing the House with some Earl, Lord Attlee, of individuals being forced into sale reassurances and by clarifying two or three specific in order to deal with the beneficial consequences of points that have been raised in the debate. On a point restitution. There is a series of detailed answers to raised by the noble Lord, Lord Janner, I should make those questions but, in the interests of time, I shall not it absolutely clear that the principle and practice of go through each of them. Our judgment is that it does consent applies here. This is a power of permission, not make sense to put them in the Bill, as the noble not compulsion. Museum trustees will continue to Lord, Lord Maclennan, asked, but I will provide both take the final decision on whether to return an object noble Lords with a detailed exposition of the responses that has been recommended for return by the panel. that I have had from HRMC and the Treasury on both This is in keeping with the long-established arm’s-length those questions, because they are clearly important. principle, which recognises that trustees are responsible In summary, the Bill is a simple, four-clause measure for the items vested in their care, and that it is not for designed, as a number of noble Lords have highlighted, Governments to tell the trustees what to do with them. to correct an anomaly in the way that national museums The power in the Bill has been narrowly defined, are able to deal with requests for the return of items in and linking it to a recommendation by the designated their collections that were lost during the Nazi era, advisory panel will ensure that museums can transfer and it seeks simply to place all museums on a level only items lost during the Nazi era. Those issues were footing. I commend it to the House. raised by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, and the noble 12.55 pm Baroness, Lady Warnock. The Government consider that, as in the case of human remains on which we Lord Janner of Braunstone: My Lords I thank all legislated in 2005, it is right to allow museums to speakers, and especially the Minister, for what they remove items from the national collections where there have said, and of course I am very grateful for the kind are overwhelming moral grounds to do so. The Holocaust birthday wishes that I received. I especially greatly era was unique in that it represented a systematic appreciate the unanimous support for the Bill from all campaign of evil by the Nazis to eliminate whole races sides of the Chamber, and I now ask the House to give of people and their cultures. The widespread and it a Second Reading. systematic deprivation of property in the Nazi era and Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee the problems faced by individuals seeking to recover of the Whole House. their property has also been widely recognised in international declarations as requiring particular measures Driving Instruction (Suspension and to remedy these terrible wrongs. Exemption Powers) Bill The Government are committed to maintaining Second Reading our national collections and support the role of museum trustees as the guardians of these collections. The 12.56 pm Government will resist other measures that would Moved by Lord Tyler break up and disperse our national collections. That the Bill be read a second time. The Terezin declaration of 30 June 2009, to which I referred at the beginning of my comments, encourages Lord Tyler: My Lords, this is a modest but potentially countries to invest more into carrying out provenance very important Bill. Unusually, perhaps, it received research on items in national collections. UK museums extremely thorough scrutiny and examination before have a very good record on carrying out provenance and during its progress through the other place, where research into the objects in their collections, and it is there has been complete unanimity in support of it commonly recognised that the years 1933 to 1945 across all parties—Front Benches and Back Benches. require special attention where there are gaps in the Its introduction and process through the Commons provenance during those years. The Government have was led by my honourable friend Willie Rennie, but it issued guidance on collecting and borrowing art, which had generous and very enthusiastic support from Ministers also includes advice on these specific issues. Museums and shadow Ministers on all Benches. It has also had publish information about works in their collections substantial and thorough preparation, and a complete where there are gaps in provenance during that period absence of any opposition. There were only a small on a searchable spoliation database located on the cultural number of simple, technical amendments during its property website, www.culturalproperty advice.gov.uk. Committee stage. It has also had the benefit of very comprehensive and supportive briefings from all the In response to a specific question, the power in the outside interests concerned with the problems with Bill will not be retrospective. If, after the legislation which the Bill deals. Therefore, exactly what are the comes into force, a further claim is made for an item problems that have been identified—actual as well as that the Spoliation Advisory Panel has already considered, potential—with which the Bill is concerned? such as the Beneventan Missal, it will be up to the Although there has for some time been some trustees of the institution concerned to decide whether recognition of a loophole in the law relating to the once again to refer the claim to the panel. I hope that regulation of driving instructors, the matter only really that provides clarity. came to a head in 2005 and, sadly, missed an opportunity There was a whole range of taxation questions, not in that year to be incorporated in legislation. However, least on how capital gains tax applies to an institution, in that year, Ms Lesley Anne Steele, living in the what obligation there is on the individual, what the constituency of my honourable friend, suffered the inheritance tax threshold obligations are, and the traumatic experience of a serious sexual assault by potentially invidious situation raised by the noble the instructor who had been teaching her to drive. 919 Driving Instruction Bill[LORDS] Driving Instruction Bill 920

[LORD TYLER] The co-operation of the Government has been very During the Third Reading debate in the other place, much of assistance to those promoting the Bill in both Mr Rennie repeated the account of what happened Houses. There are some very modest financial implications next, as subsequently given by Ms Steele, who very anticipated by Ministers: perhaps something in the courageously waived any anonymity. I do not intend region of £50,000 to £55,000 a year. I think Members to repeat it in detail but I can give a short résumé of of your Lordships’ House will agree that that is a what happened. modest total to deal with this important and potentially very damaging loophole. The instructor who made the assault was charged, Similarly, there is a very good assessment in the found guilty and placed on the sex offenders register Explanatory Notes—I pay tribute to those who have but continued to teach vulnerable learner drivers, even given me assistance in preparing them—of the implications in the immediate vicinity of Ms Steele’s house. Therefore, for the European Convention on Human Rights. Those her dreadful experience appeared to have had no implications have been examined most carefully. Given proper remedy. Members of your Lordships’ House that, in a similar case, a nine months’ suspension was will not be surprised to know that she was amazed, judged not to be an arbitrary or unjustified process horrified and angry. Having no recourse or hope of and that the maximum in this Bill is 75 days, there is remedy under the existing law, she eventually sought no obvious problem here. the assistance of her constituency Member of Parliament. It is obviously a strange and disturbing anomaly This Bill closes the alarming loophole which she, and that when any other professional or regulated person—for then he, discovered. example, a doctor or a dentist—commits a serious The background is that paid instruction on how to offence, there is an immediate procedure to prevent drive has been a regulated activity for some 40 years. It even the remotest possibility of repetition, even a is now covered by the Road Traffic Act 1988, the RTA, suggestion of a threat to the safety of the public. But and the Road Safety Act 2006, the RSA. Approved that is not so in the case of driving instructors, as we driving instructors, ADIs, are registered by the Driving have discovered. Standards Agency, the DSA. To gain entry to the The Bill is urgent and necessary, even if its provisions register, instructors must pass a series of examinations are required very rarely. In recognition of the courage and, most importantly, they must be demonstrably fit of Lesley Anne Steele, who could have simply put this and proper persons. Under the RTA, the registrar has awful incident behind her, but was determined to power to remove a person from the register if satisfied ensure that no one else had that experience, I hope that they have ceased to meet those various conditions. very much that your Lordships’ House will give the However, there is a long, potentially cumbersome Bill a fair wind and speedy passage. I beg to move. process of notification, response, review and even appeal before that actually takes place. I am advised 1.05 pm that the minimum delay during that process is 45 days Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, I shall not detain your from the date on which the instructor is notified. Lordships very long. My noble friend has made his Obviously in a serious case such as I have described, a case absolutely. As someone a little more familiar with delay in deregistration of several months is totally the Road Traffic Act 1988, it seems to me to be a bit unacceptable and hence this Bill. like the proverbial cricket bat that has had seven new blades and eight new handles, it is so hung around The Bill’s main purpose is to provide that the with anomalies. This attempt to correct an anomaly registrar can suspend an ADI at exactly the same time deserves the support of the House. as notification is given that his or her name can be removed from the register. It does not weaken or 1.06 pm undermine the due process of deregistration. However, Earl Attlee: My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the it means that the registrar can prevent continued noble Lord, Lord Tyler, for introducing his Bill and instruction where there is a significant threat to the for the careful way in which he explained its purpose safety of members of the public. To avoid unreasonable and background. Although I shall not repeat his points, bureaucratic procrastination, there is a time limit of I agree with them all. 75 days during which a determination must be reached. This specific power to suspend will, therefore, be available I have an interest to declare as an out-of-date only in the most serious cases where an ADI has qualified Army driving instructor. I have taught both already been convicted of a serious criminal offence, civilian and military personnel to drive both cars and such as a sexual or a violent attack or when an ADI heavy goods vehicles. I know from my experience that has repeatedly failed the qualifying test. a driving instructor temporarily has considerable power over a pupil. Pupils need to be confident that their The structure of this simple and modest Bill is very instructor is a competent and fit person. The noble straightforward. Clause 1 inserts a new section in the Lord, Lord Tyler, explained the welcome compensation RTA to provide the new suspension powers for the provisions in Clause 2, which inserts new Section 128ZB registrar. Clause 2 inserts a further new section to into RTA 1988. As an aside, and following from what provide for a compensation scheme to cover the possibility the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said, perhaps that of a suspension and potential deregistration being Act would benefit from consolidation, as it has been overturned on appeal. Clauses 3 to 7 provide for amended several times. exemptions, transitional arrangements, consequential However, new subsection (1) covers “income losses” amendments, the commencement date and so on. Schedule and “non-income losses”. Subsection (9) defined income 1 simply completes the necessary arrangements. losses as “losses of income”, and non-income losses as 921 Driving Instruction Bill[10 JULY 2009] Driving Instruction Bill 922

“losses other than income”. I am not quite sure what to maintain the high standards of conduct expected of other interpretation could be attached to those terms. them by their fellow professionals, their customers Nevertheless, the compensation scheme will protect and the general public. the instructor from the financial consequences of a The Road Traffic Act 1988 provides the registrar malicious allegation. At the same time, it will remove with powers to remove instructors from the register from the registrar the need to be overly concerned where they cease to be fit and proper persons. The Act about the hardship of a temporarily suspended instructor. also provides for instructors to make representations The provisions of the Bill may need only rarely to be to the registrar before he finally decides whether their invoked. Perhaps that is why they were overlooked in name should be removed from the register, and gives the RSA, but they are worthwhile and we on these them the opportunity to make an appeal to the transport Benches welcome them. tribunal should the registrar decide in favour of removal. It is entirely right that instructors should be able to 1.08 pm make representations, particularly where removal from Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, this is in the register would prevent them following their chosen danger of setting a record for being the shortest Second way of earning a living. However, it takes a minimum Reading debate in this House’s history. In Report and of 45 days for the registrar to complete the process of Third Reading in the other place, Mr Rennie concluded removing an instructor’s name from the register. During by saying: that period, the instructor can continue giving paid “If the House gives its support this morning, I shall entrust driving instruction. We need to ensure that, in the the Bill to my old boss, Lord Tyler ... in another place. I am sure most serious cases, the public are protected during the that Members there will see the merits of the Bill, but if they do removal process. not I am sure that they will succumb to Lord Tyler’s charm”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/6/09; col.1068.]. The Government are concerned not only about We have had the charm of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, instructors who have committed serious violent or but we did not need it to support the Bill. other offences but about those whose standard of The Government are very sympathetic to the purpose instruction is identified, by means of periodic quality of the Bill, because it addresses an issue of genuine assurance checks, as being so poor that it puts at risk public concern, principally about the safety of young the safety of their pupils and other road users. The people who are learning to drive. It will amend the Government therefore propose to support the introduction legislation that provides for the registration of driving of a power whereby the registrar may temporarily instructors, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, described. suspend the registration of an instructor in these If it becomes law, the registrar of approved driving exceptional circumstances. instructors will in appropriate circumstances be able However, there is quite rightly a concern that adequate to suspend an instructor immediately where they present safeguards are in place where persons are prevented an unacceptable risk to the safety of members of the from following their profession and thereby deprived public—in particular, their pupils. of their livelihood. To that end, I should explain the As the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has explained, the measures that we are supporting. First, a registered impetus for the Bill came from a constituent of Willie instructor can be suspended only where the registrar Rennie, the Member of Parliament for Dunfermline advises him, in writing, that he is minded to remove and West Fife. Lesley Anne Steele approached Mr Rennie his permission to give paid instruction permanently because of the anxiety and anger she felt when she saw and is following the statutory procedure to do that. It her driving instructor collecting another female pupil is not a stand-alone measure. Secondly, the suspension for a driving lesson the very next day after he had been will lapse after 75 days if the registrar has still not convicted of sexually assaulting her. Together, Ms Steele decided whether to remove the suspended instructor’s and Mr Rennie approached the Driving Standards permission to give paid instruction. Thirdly, a statutory Agency—which, through the registrar, regulates approved compensation scheme will provide for the reimbursement driving instructors—to try to establish how this could of income and non-income losses incurred by the happen. They discovered that it takes around 45 days suspended instructor where the latter is suspended but for the registrar to remove an instructor’s name from not subsequently removed from the register, or where the register of ADIs, and during that period the instructor the registrar’s decision to remove is overturned on can continue providing paid driving instruction. appeal. The non-income losses to which the noble The tenacity of both Mr Rennie and his constituent, Earl, Lord Attlee, referred relate to the damage of a to which the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has rightly paid person’s reputation and the value of their business tribute this morning, in seeking to address this legal that is likely to follow from this sort of action. Many loophole is evidenced by the Bill. We have an opportunity approved driving instructors are self-employed, so the to ensure that others who put their trust in a driving non-monetary damage as a result of the loss of reputation instructor do not experience the anguish and pain felt could be very serious. by Lesley Anne Steele. I hope that we will seize that The final point on that is that there will be an opportunity. entitlement for the instructor to lodge an appeal with The overwhelming majority of instructors, having the first-tier tribunal in respect of whether compensation satisfied the registrar that they are fit and proper should be awarded or the amount granted. But let me persons when they are accepted on to the register of restate that the arrangements that we put in place are approved driving instructors, remain so throughout intended to deal with a very small number of cases, their career in that profession. We are concerned here probably no more than five each year; that is, five out with the very small percentage of instructors who fail of around 45,000 registered instructors. 923 Driving Instruction Bill[LORDS] Driving Instruction Bill 924

[LORD FAULKNER OF WORCESTER] I agree. It offers protection to learner drivers in particular While the arrangements that I have described will and the public more generally while safeguarding the address the risk posed by a few qualified instructors, a interests of fit and proper driving instructors. The Bill similar risk applies in respect of some partially qualified deals with a real public concern in a reasonable and instructors, around 2,500 of whom are licensed per proportionate way. I wish the Bill well and I look annum. These people have passed the theory and forward to seeing it on the statute book. practical driving parts of the registered instructor qualifying examination and are permitted, under a 1.17 pm licensing scheme, to give paid driving instruction while Lord Tyler: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to preparing for the final part, the practical instruction all Members of the House not only for giving their test. warm support to the Bill but for doing so expeditiously. This group of apprentice instructors presents an I do not know whether I should be grateful to my even smaller risk than that posed by qualified instructors, honourable friend Willie Rennie for describing my as they are fewer in number. However, it would be charm as being a necessary component of my speech absurd if the registrar was unable to suspend the today because I had hoped that it would be my eloquence licence of an apprentice instructor in circumstances and persuasive powers. Nevertheless, I am grateful to similar to those resulting in the suspension of a qualified my noble friend Lord Bradshaw and to the noble Earl, instructor. We propose, therefore, to support the Lord Attlee, who in his usual assiduous way has introduction of a provision that would allow the registrar looked even to the detail of the Bill. I hope that the to suspend the licence or exemption from registration response of the Minister on the exact definition of that permits a trainee instructor to give paid instruction. compensation has satisfied him. Suspension could be imposed only alongside action I want to underline the point made by the Minister intended to lead to the revocation of the licence or that the emphasis has to be that the vast majority of exemption and could be used only where the trainee approved driving instructors are not going to be affected instructor posed a significant threat to safety of members by the Bill. Only a tiny minority will be, and perhaps of the public. As with registered instructors, the even fewer now that this Bill deals with those who can counterbalance to the trainee licence or exemption be considered not to be fit and proper persons. There suspension power would be the compensation scheme. will be exceptional safeguards to make sure that the The scheme would cover the suspension of trainee new regime works well. I am grateful to the Minister licences or exemptions in much the same way as it for emphasising that trainee instructors, who are not covers the suspension of qualified driving instructors. so numerous, will also be covered. Again, I thank all On 26 June, speaking at the end of the Bill’s Third noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and I Reading in another place, my honourable friend the ask that the Bill be given a Second Reading. Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Paul Clark, said: Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee “The Bill strikes the right balance between the need to protect of the Whole House. the public and the rights of individuals to go about their business and earn a living”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/6/09; col. 1067.] House adjourned at 1.19 pm. WA 177 Written Answers[10 JULY 2009] Written Answers WA 178

its own position in relation to the charity; are the Written Answers members of the opposing group also members of the charity or do they have some other Friday 10 July 2009 constitutional role? As mentioned in my answer to a previous question, mediation can be a quick and cost effective way to resolve a dispute. This includes allegations of election Charity Commission abuse or other irregularities. Questions Parliamentary Question (HL4826) Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester The answers to the previous Questions were given in the context of a dispute or serious disagreement To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the in a charity. The commission will become involved Written Answers by Baroness Crawley on 29 June with a charity in these circumstances only where it (WA 3–5)and1July(WA 46–7), how the Charity has a clear role. This will usually be only: Commission’s policy of leaving disputes between if there are no validly appointed trustees; and trustees to resolution by those trustees, after advice by the commission, operates in a case where only all other methods of resolving the dispute have one of the opposing groups of trustees is in control failed. as a result of elections which can be challengeable If there were substantial concerns about the validity as fraudulent. [HL4825] of trustee appointments, we would expect those running the charity to put the situation right. If this was not To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the possible then it might be necessary for the commission Written Answers by Baroness Crawley on 29 June to become involved. In certain circumstances we can, (WA 3–5)and1July(WA 46–7) that the Charity for example, use our powers to appoint new trustees. Commission’s decision to take action in a particular Taking into account the principles of good regulation, case depends upon the issues involved, the risks to we ensure that we are proportionate in all that we do. the charity and whether its intervention is necessary This means that we focus our priorities and resources and proportionate, how the commission defines or where we believe our intervention as regulator can otherwise describes what is meant by “necessary” make most difference to charities and the people who and “proportionate”. [HL4826] benefit from them. In the context of a charity dispute, we would consider the following factors in assessing Baroness Crawley: The information requested falls whether it was appropriate and proportionate to take within the responsibility of the Charity Commission. action: I have asked the commission to reply. the particular circumstances; Letter from Andrew Hind, Chief Executive of the the seriousness and scale of the problem; Charity Commission, to Lord Morris of Manchester, the level of risk to the charity (activities, beneficiaries, dated 7 July 2009. property or reputation): As the Chief Executive of the Charity Commission, available evidence; and I have been asked to respond to your Written likelihood of a successful outcome. Parliamentary Questions. We might conclude that we could use commission Parliamentary Question (HL4825) resources elsewhere to greater effect in the public From our experience, the deliberate abuse of voting interest, and that we should not take regulatory action. procedures and rights in charity elections is rare. More Our experience is that this type of situation is best often, disputes relating to the holding of trustee elections solved by those involved in the dispute, using mediation are caused by a lack of attention to governance if necessary. A solution imposed from outside, be it by arrangements. This may be because procedures have the commission or another stakeholder, may not have not been followed or because the governance arrangements the same chance of long term success. are complex to manage. I hope this clarifies the position. In this situation, the various parties should work together to seek a solution for the future. The outcome might include the adoption of new governance Employment: Redundancy arrangements and ensuring that future elections are Question fair and transparent, perhaps by the appointment of an independent election supervisor. Asked by Lord Laird If an “opposing group” remained unhappy with the To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the situation, it could consider what other options were Written Answer by Lord Youngof Norwood Green available to it. This would depend upon: on 24 June (WA 283–5), by how much the statutory the constitutional framework of the charity; for cost of a redundancy payment of £6,650 to an instance, is it a membership charity? individual aged 50, with 15 years’ service in the the provisions in the charity’s governing document; private sector and earning £25,000 is exceeded by a is there a disputes clause or other relevant similar case of redundancy of someone working in provision? the civil service. [HL4804] WA 179 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 180

Baroness Crawley: I refer the noble Lord to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, reply that Lord Young gave him on 24 June Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Official Report, col. WA 284.) (Lord Davies of Oldham): The Royal Parks is responsible for the trees within Greenwich Park. The London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Gurkhas Paralympic Games is responsible for staging the 2012 Question events in the park. There are no plans to dig up and transplant trees. The course for the cross-country Asked by Lord Selkirk of Douglas equestrian event, to take place for only one day of Toask Her Majesty’s Government whether Gurkhas competition, is being sensitively designed and developed who served prior to 1997 receive education and on the basis of an arboricultural assessment. medical treatment for dependants once they have retired, as provided for by the Fifth Indian Pay Roads: Motorways and A Roads Code for Indian Gorkhas. [HL4802] Question The Minister for International Defence and Security Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The British Army Gurkha Pension Scheme (GPS) is based on the Indian Army To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment pension code. This arrangement stems from the terms they have made of the safety of Britain’s motorways and conditions of service that supported the Tripartite and A roads. [HL4783] Agreement of 1947 between Nepal, India and the UK. The GPS does not include specific provision for the The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): education or medical treatment of retired Gurkhas’ In 2008, one person was killed or seriously injured on dependants, although it does pay a family pension to Britain’s motorways per 100 million motor vehicle surviving dependants of deceased pensioners. In 2000 kilometres travelled. By comparison, 6.1 people were the rates of pension paid under the scheme were killed or seriously injured on our A roads per 100 million doubled, in recognition that the Indian Army pension motor vehicle kilometres. The equivalent figure for scheme provides benefits in kind to members, such as roads of other types is 7.5. medical facilities, that could not be replicated by the In developing our new road safety strategy for the UK Government in Nepal. period from 2010, we have provided funding to the The work of the Gurkha Welfare Trust also makes Road Safety Foundation, which has made an assessment a significant contribution in the area of medical and of the risk of serious and fatal collisions on our educational provision. Among the objects of the trust motorways and A roads per kilometre travelled. This are the advancement of the education of Gurkhas and approach helps to identify individual stretches of roads their dependants and the provision of medical diagnosis which are of relatively high risk and so focus the and treatment of Gurkhas and their dependants. The attention of highway authorities and police on those trust provides free primary healthcare for all Gurkha routes which most need their attention. This information veterans in Nepal. Free secondary health care is also can be found at http://www.eurorap.org/. provided for all those not in receipt of a service We propose, under the new strategy, to continue to pension and subsidised by 70 per cent of the cost for provide support for the foundation to identify the those who are. riskiest routes in this way. Although the Gurkha Welfare Trust is independent of the Ministry of Defence, the department gives just Transport: Tram Trains over £1 million annually to the trust in order to contribute to the administrative costs of its field arm Question operating in Nepal, the Gurkha Welfare Scheme. Asked by Lord Bradshaw To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they Olympic Games 2012: Equestrian Events propose to sign a contract for the operation of the Question tram-train on the Penistone line. [HL4818] Asked by Lord Inglewood The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether any The Government are in discussions with Northern trees will be dug up and transplanted in order to and Network Rail about the operation of a tram-train enable the 2012 Olympic equestrian events to be trial on the Penistone line and expect to make an staged in Greenwich Park. [HL4601] announcement in due course. Friday 10 July 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Charity Commission ...... 177 Olympic Games 2012: Equestrian Events ...... 179

Employment: Redundancy...... 178 Roads: Motorways and A Roads ...... 180

Gurkhas...... 179 Transport: Tram Trains...... 180 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL4601] ...... 179 [HL4804] ...... 178 [HL4818] ...... 180 [HL4783] ...... 180 [HL4825] ...... 177 [HL4802] ...... 179 [HL4826] ...... 177 Volume 712 Friday No. 106 10 July 2009

CONTENTS

Friday 10 July 2009 Arrangement of Business Announcement...... 877 Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies and Credit Unions Bill Second Reading ...... 878 Autism Bill Second Reading ...... 888 Holocaust (Return of Cultural Objects) Bill Second Reading ...... 902 Driving Instruction (Suspension and Exemption Powers) Bill Second Reading ...... 918 Written Answers...... WA 177