Interview with Samora Machel

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Aluka is a not-for-profit initiative dedicated to creating and preserving a digital archive of materials about and from the developing world. For more information about Aluka, please see http://www.aluka.org Interview with Samora Machel

Author/Creator Isaacman, Allen (Interviewer); Christie, Iain (Interviewer); Machel, Samora (Interviewee) Contributor Filipe, Eléusio dos P.V. (Translator), Samora Machel Documentation Center, Mozambique Date 1979-05 Resource type Interviews Language English Subject Coverage (spatial) Mozambique, Zimbabwe Coverage (temporal) 1975-1979 Rights By kind permission of Frances Christie and Graça Machel. Description Transcription of interview with Samora Machel, conducted by Allen Isaacman and Iain Christie, Maputo, May 1979

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http://www.aluka.org Transcriptions of Interviews with Samora Machel- Tapes 1-4

Conducted by Allen Isaacman and Iain Christie, Maputo, May 1979

Translated from the Portuguese by Eléusio dos P.V. Filipe,

Doctoral Candidate in Spanish & Portuguese, University of Minnesota

Reviewed by Jim Johnson, Interdisciplinary Center for the Study of Global Change, U of MN

Iain Christie: During the Transition Government period, you, comrade President, said that one of the objectives of FRELIMO was to eliminate the base of poverty in Mozambique before the end of this decade; of course, there is still poverty. But, can you list the main successes in the struggle against poverty?

Samora Machel: Did you end poverty in England? Did you end poverty in the United Kingdom?

Iain Christie: Not yet, not yet.

Samora Machel: Did you end poverty in the United States?

Allen Isaacman: There is still poverty in the United States…

Samora Machel: Did you end poverty in the United States? Poverty is still the biggest problem in the United States. Poverty is still a big problem in the United States … The United Kingdom still has a big problem with poverty. Poverty is still a big problem in the German Federal [Republic]. Perhaps; perhaps, if we identify the main cause of poverty in some of these countries; in these countries, poverty is a failure of the capitalist countries. In the capitalist system, poverty is a necessary evil, and this is a very critical point. Poverty is regarded as a necessary evil in the capitalist countries. Poverty is a necessary evil in the capitalist system. The fundamental aspect of the capitalist system is to have poverty; the capitalist system engenders and structures poverty. To organize poverty is one of the key elements of the capitalist system. Our struggle is to eliminate root causes of poverty. Our first fight is to eliminate the root causes of poverty. We first want to destroy the root causes of poverty so that we can fight against poverty. That’s why we say that the critical element in our struggle against poverty in our country was the end of Portuguese colonialism, and this is a key point: the elimination of Portuguese colonialism was the key aspect in our struggle against poverty because it was the main cause of poverty. We found illiteracy; we found obscurantism; we found superstition; we found illnesses; we found misery in Portuguese colonialism; in sum, we found poverty. This means that the productive forces were not free; there wasn’t initiative; there wasn’t independence; there was not freedom. So, it was necessary to destroy this element, which was the Portuguese colonialism. This was the first thing to do. So, the steps that we are taking now, they are designed to transform our country into a prosperous and a developed country. However, we have given a finishing stroke to the Portuguese colonialism. Later on, we will find the answer to this question of poverty; we will address in detail this question of poverty, which you raised. Let’s move on.

Allen Isaacman: Agriculture was defined as the base for building a new Mozambican society. What are the main successes and failures of this process particularly with regards to the formation of cooperatives, communal villages, and state farms, and how the family sector is part of this process?

Samora Machel: Ah, did you ever visit the country, Isaacman? Did you visit Mozambique? What are the regions of the country that you visited?

Allen Isaacman: I visited Gaza, Nampula, Cabo Delgado, and Tete.

Samora Machel: Gaza

Allen Isaacman: Nampula

Samora Machel: Nampula

Allen Isaacman: Cabo Delgado

Samora Machel: Cabo Delgado

Allen Isaacman: Tete

Samora Machel: Tete... are you informed about Ian Smith? Did you visit Mozambique... did you visit the provinces …

Iain Christie: I visited some areas of Mozambique. I only visited Gaza.

Samora Machel: a little bit of Gaza

Iain Christie: Chimoio

Samora Machel: Chimoio, in Manica… did you establish contacts with some structures? With state, political, and party structures? Did you establish these contacts?

Allen Isaacman: Yes, we did. We talked with the structures.

Samora Machel: For example, did you visit communal villages? Did you visit communal villages in Gaza and Nampula? Did you visit some of them?

Allen Isaacman: Yes, we visited some of them Samora Machel: I am also sure that you visited some agrarian cooperatives despite the fact that they are in their early stages of development. In order to answer your question it is important to know if you friends are aware of the Mozambican reality. When people come down to Maputo; when people arrive in Maputo, they may have the impression that nothing is being done in this country. For example, from the Polana Hotel; from the Cardoso Hotel; from the supermarket that doesn’t have basic goods compared to the rest of Maputo where some of these goods do not constitute basic goods in some rural areas. They vary from place to place. Therefore, the slogan of the party to establish communal villages and cooperatives was well received by the population and it also generated very broad popular support and enthusiasm. This slogan steered a broad popular support and movement from the people, and this is how we can see the development of agriculture. The establishment of a collective form of production, and the benefits resulting from it, and the elimination of the base of exploitation has encouraged their rapid development. Today, there are more than one thousand communal villages with more than one million people. It is still not enough for a country with 12 million people, but this is an important step to revitalize [agriculture]. There are more than five hundred agrarian cooperatives with more than thirty thousand members. This is very important considering that we started from nothing. The visible and palpable material benefits of the communal villages and cooperatives have increased the political and ideological consciousness of the peasantry. It is a collective consciousness that emerged from collective work. The successes of the communal villages and the cooperatives have encouraged many individual peasants to get together to work collectively; this is a very important step. We have as an example the cultivation of cotton which was a forced crop during the colonial period and had negatively marked many peasants. Cotton profoundly marked the experiences of peasants in those regions where it was grown. We can now see peasants coming together to create cooperatives where they can cultivate cotton. This [change of attitudes] towards the cultivation of cotton was a result of a profound political mobilization and consciousness--why do we cultivate cotton, and for whom are we growing cotton? Who gets the benefits from cultivating cotton? Talking about cotton production in the past was the same as organizing and bringing hunger and misery to the peasants. Collective production leads to the gradual realization of other collective activities, such as solving the problems of food supply, and this is the reason why consumer cooperatives are created to organize the distribution of food and marketing the food surpluses produced by peasants. Peasants also organize themselves to collectively build houses, which they never had before. To collectively build a house! A new style [of life]! It’s a new way of looking at life--it’s a new conception of life! That’s why I was asking if you had visited any provinces and rural areas, I mean rural areas outside Maputo. This is how health, education, and commercialization problems are gradually being addressed and solved. For us communal villages are centers of collective production; they are centers of political, social, and cultural life. Communal villages are centers that will allow the industrialization, urbanization, and socialization of rural areas. To sum up, communal villages are essentially centers of organized and collective life. It is important to note this: centers of collective life. Repeat this; it’s necessary to highlight this: collective life. People in Maputo build a big city, but they don’t have a collective life. In the United States, New York; England, London; France, Paris; these are big cities, but they don’t have a collective life. We will come back to these issues when I address your questions about crime in the cities. We will come back to this. So, when we talk about these issues, it is important to make it clear that the existing cooperatives are facing many problems. One of the problems facing the existing cooperatives is lack of materials such as adequate equipment for better use of the existing natural resources, such as the construction of small dykes and dams for water storage and irrigation purposes, to control the rivers, and take advantage of water for irrigation purposes. We haven’t been able to achieve these goals. We still have problems in developing adequate expertise to fight against natural disasters, such as, floods, droughts, hail, and plagues of insects. Their effects can be minimized or even eliminated. But we haven’t developed adequate expertise to achieve these goals and eliminate these problems. When we talk about agriculture, and when we say we have declared agriculture to be the base for development of our country, we are also considering these issues. We are taking these issues into account. With regard to the state agricultural sector, we’re working to transform this sector without taking into account cattle-raising and forest enterprises (explorations). There are 130,000 hectares of productive and cultivated land under the control of state companies where cotton, rice, corn, potatoes, peanuts are produced. State companies are centers of diffusion…of what? Of advanced technical expertise. They are schools not only of production but also for training. They are not only schools for training, but also to develop a class consciousness so that there is an understanding of the interdependence between agriculture and industry, and between the industrial worker and farm worker. That’s why we talk about state companies as centers of diffusion of advanced technical expertise to support the cooperatives with the best quality of seeds to suit the best quality of soil. Advanced technical expertise for cultivation and best quality of fertilizers for different soils. They are centers for scientific and technical training for peasant members of cooperatives. State agricultural cooperatives are centers of production; they are centers of high levels of production and high productivity. The family sector is going to remain the most important in the rural areas. This sector will remain the most predominant in the countryside, and much of the agricultural production of the country will come from this sector. In order to support the family sector, the state will ensure the market distribution of their foodstuffs by providing them with basic needs as well as agricultural implements such as hoes, plows, seeds, and others. These activities will be carried out taking into account our strategic goal, which is to make sure that the population that live scattered in the countryside move into communal villages.

You can see that to solve the problem of people living scattered in the countryside, we want to focus first on the consciousness of the population. This is in contrast to what it is being claimed in the western countries, that we are inflicting violent acts on the people and society. They claim that we are using violence against the people— why? I can understand westerners, particularly Europeans and Americans, because they want to turn our rural areas into study areas where they can find the “true” African. The “true” African for westerners is the one who goes about in rags. For westerners, the “true” African is the one who goes about in rags; it is the one who is covered with sores all over his/her body. The “true” African is the one who goes about naked or simply wears a piece of cloth, a loin-cloth or animal skin. This is the “true” African for westerners and Europeans. The “true” African for westerners is the one who lives very isolated and next to or behind his/her cattle. The “true” African is the one whose hut is the same as his/her ox-stall [cow-shed]. This is the “true” African. That’s why when we want to collectivize life and production in the countryside; they [westerners] spread rumors against communal villages, claiming that we are building concentration camps. Why? Because they’re going to lose their study areas or laboratories to study the African, and where they could always appear with a paternalistic attitude to help the miserable and pitiful African. The miserable!... The miserable African who is waiting for the rains, and depends essentially on them. He/she produces for his/her subsistence or survival, and there are no perspectives or plans to produce surpluses. That’s why the westerners, all of them, are against the communal villages. Because they would lose the field to practice their paternalism towards the African. The development of cooperatives and communal villages creates a stimulus and attraction to accelerate the integration of isolated peasants. This is how we will address all the issues concerning the agriculture sector.

Iain Christie: The next question is about industry.

Samora Machel: These sectors are connected.

Iain Christie: Industry in the People’s Republic of Mozambique was almost paralyzed around the time of the independence. In today’s newspaper, we noticed…

Samora Machel and Iain Christie: Laughs

Iain Christie: ..but in today’s newspaper we read that industrial production increased 20% last year. What are the main factors for this improvement? Connected to this question, I would like to know what is the FRELIMO policy regarding the incentives of production?

Samora Machel: Let’s try to answer this question because it is of great interest; it’s a question of great interest for our workers, people, state, and the party. We will see once again the question of the unitary powers: political, legislative and administrative [executive] powers, which are separated in other countries. These powers are separated in other countries, and they even talk about the fourth power, which is of the media [information]. Information… all these structures [governmental sectors] act for the same leadership and same interest. All these structures which represent the political, legislative and administrative powers act for the benefit of the people. They act to create a harmonious development removed from capitalist competition. The first thing we did was to reorganize industry; when we say the reorganization of industry, we’re also talking about the reorganization of the leadership role of the working class (proletariat). When we reorganized this sector, we defined the main goal which was the recovery of industrial production. The first front was the recovery of the industrial production… [the voice increases] It was not so much about perspectives or plans to increase the number of factories, it wasn’t about perspectives in terms of building new factories; the first step was to consolidate, improve, reorganize what already existed. And this recovery was carried out on every front [sector of industry]. The first steps carried out from the early days of independence included fighting against sabotage -- fight against sabotage -- and this sabotage was carried out by capitalism; capitalism [white settlers] in flight. Capitalism is in permanent flight in every country where the revolution succeeds. I don’t know why? Why do they always run away?

Iain Christie: First they fight [Laughs]

Audience: [Laughs]

Samora Machel: That’s why we say to fight against sabotage. It was not just economic sabotage, it was general sabotage, it was sabotage in the real sense of the word. It was general sabotage, it was sabotage carried out by capitalism in flight, capitalism in flight, capitalism is in permanent flight. Who were those who represented capitalism in that period? They were white settlers. The second aspect [step] was the definition of priorities in the industrial recovery. Defining priorities in the industrial recovery. Fundamentally, defining the strategic companies, establishing the qualifications and competencies for leadership positions in the state apparatus or at state structure level; establishing clear objectives for production in the new socioeconomic conditions. It’s important to clearly define the priorities. It is important to define the strategies with clarity. It’s important to define the priorities with clarity in order to define the strategies and establish the competencies at all levels. Not all battles have the same importance or significance. No. There are decisive battles. Therefore, strategic sectors which are important for us, such as the cement industry, must be transformed into an export sector. Strategic sectors for us must be transformed into export sectors. During the colonial period, the cement industry was not a strategic sector, not even an export sector. It was designed just to build the cities and speculate through them. Just to build the cities and speculate. They didn’t focus on building dams or reservoirs, they didn’t focus on building dams, reservoirs, dikes. No. The emphasis was on constructing buildings; building cities; just constructing buildings for immediate gain. There were no long term perspectives or plans.

Allen Isaacman: Cahora Bassa.

Samora Machel: Cahora Bassa was not built by them. [Laughs] They didn’t build Cahora Bassa Dam. They had other plans and perspectives with regards to [the dam]. They had other plans in mind--it was somehow a colonizing project designed to establish more white settlers. It was an outdated project. It was tried in Algeria, the French attempted to do that in Algeria. Where were they coming from, those who went to live in Algeria? What were the origins of the white settlers who went to live in Algeria? They came from Spain and they were from other different nationalities. Do you think that Portugal with only 8 and 10 million people would be able to populate Mozambique? The white settlers would come from your countries.With hoes in their hands when they are in fact soldiers. We have had the opportunity to talk about this. We had the opportunity to talk about this in 1972. I had the opportunity to talk with you [Allen Isaacman] about Cahora Bassa in 1972 or 1973. We had a very long conversation about Cahora Bassa and I would not want to go back to talk about Cahora Bassa again. [Laughs] I don’t want to go back to talk about Cahora Bassa. I don’t want anything to do with Cahora Bassa at this moment. [Laughs] Don’t push me into talking about Cahora Bassa. [laughs] Cahora Bassa is a white elephant without ivory. Audience: [Laughs]

Samora Machel: Cahora Bassa is a white elephant that doesn’t have ivory. It’s over there. It’s over there, what does it [the dam] do? What does it do? In contrast, a black elephant has at least ivory and a trunk. It has a trunk, ivory, and its feet are valuable. They can be used to build beautiful furniture. But, we don’t know what to do with a white elephant. It is a white elephant over there. Perhaps, transferring it to the United Kingdom. [Laughs]

Audience: [Laughs]

Samora Machel: [Laughs] This is the colonial perspective, isn’t it? It was not to the benefit of the colonized people, not even of the country where it [Portugal] colonized. Right now, South Africa is the country which is benefiting from the dam. Right now, South Africa is the country that takes more benefits from the dam. So, we talked about the cement industry. We also talked about metallurgy and the rapid development of agricultural implements. Do you see the connection now? We talked about textile industries, we talked about shoe factories, we talked about the production of furniture to satisfy the needs of people. We talked about the creation of production lines designed to satisfy the needs of the population. Reproducing the models and simplifying the productive processes in order to increase the production of basic goods at low cost [to benefit the population]. I don’t know if you noticed, but when we proclaimed our independence, there were some shoes here called xiconhoca. Didn’t we have such shoes here?

Audience: There were….

Samora Machel: Iain Christie was already here. Magune used to wear xiconhoca; those high heel shoes that don’t allow you to do any work; those shoes that don’t allow you to move easily. What was the need for those high heel shoes? To get up from one desk and move to another, there was always the danger of slipping and falling on the ground. They were not designed for the ordinary people. Training cadres at all levels: leaders, proletariats (working class), and other levels. Progressively introducing scientific planning and production control, and these things never existed before. There were no production targets in factories; if they existed, it was only the owner and boss of the factory who knew about the production targets. It was only the owner or boss who knew and the proletariat didn’t know. Some data show the industrial recovery; some data that represent and show the industrial recovery, some data that represent the impact of industrial reorganization and recovery; first, it was an increase of 20% in industrial production in 1978 compared to 1977.

Samora Machel: The expected industrial production output from 1978 to 1979 will be 23%. There will be 45 new state companies in advanced and final stages of development by May of 1979. It is now May and [there are] 45 companies. There are two nationalized companies: Petromoc and Carbomoc. The main instrument for industrial recovery … [pause] … what was it? What led to this [industrial recovery]? Replacing capitalist greed with the consciousness of the proletariat as the first stimulating factor to increase production and productivity. That’s where the secret lies. The type of [labor and economic] relations changed, replacing capitalist greed with the consciousness of the proletariat. The role of the party and the councils of production were felt in this industrial recovery. The role of the party and the councils of production were felt in a strong way. The role of the proletariat in the country’s industry is also an important one because they are involved in production and they also discuss the goals of production. They are not simply instruments of production, but they are also involved in discussions about production targets. They discuss the production goals, methods and targets. The control of production is increasingly done by the workers, and through their representatives they have access to all necessary information for controlling production. The leadership positions of companies are increasingly held by people from working-class backgrounds. It is no longer the bourgeoisie. Many boards of directors already have a representative of the company’s workers -- many boards of directors. The reorganization and recovery of industry demand its socialization, and it’s not only a matter of state control. That’s not our objective. The worker takes the leadership role and authority in the production process. This is the central and critical issue for us with regards to industry.

Ian Smith: Can you talk more about the incentives?

Samora Machel: You mean initiatives?

Audience: Incentives

Samora Machel: You mean incentives? You attended the third congress of FRELIMO, and during the congress there were socialist awards. When we organized the first session of the people’s assembly, there were socialist awards at different levels, namely companies, cooperatives, communal villages, schools, health units and hospitals. The second objective, there will be, there will be, there will be. I don’t say that we have already- first, we need to create the necessary conditions, we need to organize our victory. We need to organize our victory and ensure its triumph. We have to organize our victory and ensure its triumph. We’re thinking to provide material incentives. We are talking about May 1st; vacations are one form of socialist awards, vacations are one form; free trips are another form; free medical treatment in the country and abroad; priority in occupying houses; these are some material incentives, and there will be other incentives. This is our goal. The best worker will always have priority.

Allen Isaacman: It’s a question regarding the Third Congress of FRELIMO. In this congress, targets for the industrial and agricultural sectors were set up. We also know that there were considerable economic sabotage, lack of qualified personnel, and lack of capital investments. My question is to know whether the country will be able to accomplish these targets by 1980 under these conditions. I also want to know what the current situation is in the economic sectors that demand capital investments such as the sugar, coal, and cashew nut industries.

Samora Machel: There is optimism, there is optimism, there is optimism, enthusiasm, and decisive will. Among other issues, the FRELIMO Third Congress defined economic recovery as an immediate and essential objective. Economic recovery. Thus, [during the congress] we set up production targets for 1980 which are in general the highest levels of production ever achieved in Mozambique. These production levels will match and surpass the levels of production of 1973 and 1974. At the present time, our expectations of achieving these targets are generally positive. Now, the successes of the campaign of restructuring the party were a powerful factor that helped to broadly stimulate the organization of production in every production unit, government institutions for efficient management of the economy. This is the reason why the guidelines and directives for production (Planos Directores) for 1980, which are being completed, allow us to predict or foresee general successes in the economic sector. Although these plans need to be specific and detailed, enriched and completed through wide popular discussion to be carried out throughout this year, they already reflect the positive predictions of achieving in general the target goals of the congress. In the agricultural sector, the prediction is that in the agrarian season 1979 and 1980, the target goals established by the congress will be surpassed in the production of corn, rice, Irish potatoes, cotton, sunflower, tea, citrus, and vegetables. Moreover, we have also noticed that the main administrative and organizational measures have been implemented and others are under implementation to develop the agricultural sector and they include the construction of irrigation schemes, dykes, production and improvement of seeds, scientific research, etc. With regard to industry, the reorganization and consolidation of the power of the state and its industrial sector have also helped stimulate increased industrial production, and for this reason we expect that the recommendations and target goals set up by the congress will be accomplished. Important administrative and organizational guidelines for mechanical, metallurgical, and glass industries as well as oil refinery, chemical, textile, garment, shoe, and food industries are in place. In general, these industrial sectors had experienced a decline in production and productivity. You know very well that in 1975 and 1976 there was a drastic decline in production, and beginning in 1977 the production levels started to increase with signs of great improvement for the next years. The positive results should not make us ignore the insufficiencies and difficulties that we’re still facing. This year we started producing tires and this is a significant victory for the national industry and an important step in our development. But we feel that we haven’t achieved this victory because it was our initial goal to have this accomplished in 1977. There were good reasons for the failure to achieve this initial goal in 1977, and you Isaacman know very well the reasons for that.

Allen Isaacman: There was a huge lack…

Samora Machel: There was a huge lack…. Where was that, you Americans, where was that? When I talk about Americans, I’m also talking about the British. The British are even worse. We’ll talk about them later, and I wouldn’t like to have it recorded. [Laughs]

Audience: laughs

Samora Machel: The British are the worst. At least Americans are rude and they speak openly, while the British are more subtle. Our initial goal was not achieved, and it was supposed to have been achieved in 1977. The production of coal is also experiencing serious obstacles. The accident in the Moatize mines has delayed the process of expanding extraction of coal, and the current levels of extraction are extremely below the target production levels set up by the congress. This is despite the fact that the production of coal is expanding significantly and has surpassed the levels of extraction of the colonial period. Instances of economic sabotage have frequently severely undermined the plans for increasing production, for example, in the sugar sector. Last year, we produced more than 190,000 tons of sugar, excluding the Marromeu Sena Sugar Estates, which has the capacity to produce more than 150,000 tons of sugar. The economic sabotage carried out by Sena Sugar Estates prevented the successful beginning of sugar production planned for 1976. The Marromeu factory resumed its operations on May 1st of this year. Huge efforts are underway to ensure the successful production of 325,000 tons of sugar, a production target set up by the congress. But the abandonment of Marromeu sugar plantations by the Sena Sugar Estates company in these last years represents a serious obstacle to be overcome. The government, the party, the democratic mass organizations are involved in solving the problem of Marromeu. The council of ministers – if I’m not wrong it was in August of last year when we started- but, today Marromeu is producing sugar cane. August, and it is not even a year. So, they are there.

Iain Christie: It’s the biggest sugar cane company in the country, am I right?

Samora Machel: Yes, it is. But it’s the one that it is not even producing one ton of sugar. It’s the biggest, but it is not producing a single ton of sugar for two consecutive years, is it? For two, for two years, 1976 and 1977, and even 1978. It didn’t produce sugar for almost three years. They left almost 800,000 tons of sugar cane to rot. The cashew nut industry is another of the biggest problems that we’re facing at this stage of national reconstruction. The collapse of the commercialization and market systems caused a drastic decline in terms of marketed foodstuffs, and it was only last year that the cashew nut industry and the market system started to show signs of recovery. There were many factors. Slash and burn methods, natural disasters, and when we don’t face the problems associated with natural disasters and slash and burn methods, we’re confronted with the difficulties of having peasants take their raw cashew nuts to the markets because there are no goods for peasants to trade with. There are no goods for peasants to trade with, and this is discouraging for peasants. This phenomenon may be strange to you. You may be familiar with the experience of other African countries where by the time of their independence, they had many national and local African traders, and we don’t have them here. We never had local African traders in this country. This reminds meof when we were giving an interview to Loforte. For a person to sell eggs in this country, he/she had to be a white Portuguese. Just to have a place to sell eggs, yoghurt, milk, needles, or anything, a person had to be a white Portuguese. Even to sell coal and charcoal for cooking, a person had to be a white Portuguese. So, it was something new for the Mozambican people, and our colonial situation was entirely different from other, English-speaking, African countries where Africans were involved in trade. For example, there were many Africans in Salisbury or Rhodesia involved in trade and they also had vehicles to transport their goods. In Salisbury, there were many Africans with their own transportation and many others had big truck and bus fleets. Mr. Castro is smiling. Do you know some of them? [Laughs] Mr. Castro: [Laughs]

Samora Machel: Africans [in other countries] had farms, cattle, supermarkets. Africans didn’t have the same things here.

Allen Isaacman: We saw many abandoned shops.

Samora Machel: Yes, abandoned. We’ll address this issue later when we talk about queues. So, we talked about the collapse of the commercialization system that caused a sharp decline of production for markets and it was only last year that it started to give signs of improvement. Climate conditions have also significantly affected the recovery of production. Lack of rains in Nampula Province, the first major producer in the country, have negatively affected food production. Torrential rains in Cabo Delgado Province-- perhaps the second major producer in the country, I am not sure whether Cabo Delgado or Zambezia is the second major producer or is on the same level as Nampula Province-- destroyed the [electric power transmitters]. Recently the tropical depression Ângelica destroyed 60,000 cashew trees in Angoche during the season of marketing cashews. The problem was more severe in the district of Moma; Moma was perhaps the most seriously affected and houses and factories were also damaged. The goal of achieving the targets established by the Congress will require massive popular mobilization including party and state structures. Achieving the industrial transformation of cashew nuts and the targeted goals of producing nuts will only be possible with huge efforts of workers of this sector where the creation of the Empresa Estatal Cajú de Moçambique and the increase in productivity represent an achievement of hard daily struggle. This is a positive aspect. This is a critical point. The struggle of production is another front which demonstrates the creative skills of a politically conscious and determined people to determine its own destiny and that it is able to overcome the most difficult obstacles. That’s why I started from the most decisive force which is the people, organized people.

Iain Christie: What is the role of private capital in agriculture, industry and commerce in the People’s Republic of Mozambique?

Samora Machel: Can you bring us some coffee? Are we in a cemetery? No water, coffee or tea? What is the matter? It is as if we are in a cemetery. It’s as if we are negotiating with--I’m not going to say.

Audience: [Laughs]

Samora Machel: [Laughs] The private sector in industry, agriculture, and commerce. This is the first time that I’ll talk about this subject. There are certain issues that we haven’t clearly explained to our people, and to the country. This is an essential policy at national and international levels. It starts here. It is one of the issues. I’m going to address you directly and explain in a way for you to understand. The private sector in industry, agriculture and commerce plays an important social role in the Mozambican economy. The private sector should be subjected to the interests of the national economy. The means of production in the hands of the business people should be used adequately according to the goals defined by the state, and they should fit into the goals set by the plan. In the economic development efforts that we are involved in, we think that there is room for the involvement of other countries and international companies and of foreign capital as long as their activities fit into the economic policy and also conform to the principles and priorities of development plans that value our human and material resources. Do you hear this very well? Our state has passed the laws that define the minimum conditions for operating new enterprises including their rights and obligations. At the time of implementing a given enterprise, its statutes are defined and established including. among other conditions, the duration of the company, the form of using the profits, the transfers of technical assistance, ways of fitting into the goals of the plan, and other conditions that allow the profitability of the project benefiting the investor and the People’s Republic of Mozambique. We have experience with foreign capital in terms of conceiving joint-venture companies, acquisition of know-how as the English people say, and in terms of financing. Our current experience is mainly focused on the fishery sector, exploitation of mineral wealth, and metallurgy industries. These experiences are always positive. In the implementation of projects that involve foreign capital, the system currently in place, although it is not the only one, is to pay for the foreign participation with part of the resulting product when the project has been developed. With regard to the risks of investment, we can say that the law protects and safeguards foreign investments. At the beginning of implementing any project, [some] conditions are agreed upon in order to allow that after a certain time period the investment of foreign companies is transferred to the Mozambican state. This is what I wanted to say.

Allen Isaacman: My other question is about the difficult situation of Mozambique’s balance of payments. I’m not sure if it was the report of the United Nations that observed that there was a deficit of nearly 60 to 80 millions of dollars. With this difficult situation, is it going to be necessary for the people of Mozambique to ask for loans from the international institutions, such as the IMF and World Bank?

Samora Machel: I’m very interested in your question. First, it’s important to clarify what the difficult situation of balance of payments really means. Who is in crisis? Are we in crisis or is international capitalism in crisis? The first point is important. Who is in crisis? It is well known that the structural imbalance of the balance of payments is a result of the colonial economic system profoundly dependent on the development of South Africa and the British colony of Southern Rhodesia. The revenues coming from the port and railroad services and from selling labor to the mines and plantations of South Africa and Southern Rhodesia represented an important source of foreign currency for the colonial economy. The international trade had always presented large deficits, and the exports were based largely on five agricultural products. And these five main agricultural products were cashew nuts, sugar, cotton, sisal, and tea. The prices of these products are very low and oscillate significantly in the international market. This is the situation of the balance of payments that we find at the time of independence, coupled with economic difficulties resulting from a ruinous colonial administration.

Samora Machel: The decision to impose sanctions against the British colony of Southern Rhodesia by the Security Council of the United Nations has huge negative impact on our economy. This decision has cost an estimated 150 million dollars a year in revenue for our country, and today the total costs of imposing these sanctions have cost the country more than 500 million dollars. Despite the United Nations constant pledges to the international community to support the People’s Republic of Mozambique because of the economic losses resulting from the decision of implementing the UN sanctions against Southern Rhodesia, Mozambique only received 100 million dollars. The economic losses resulting from these sanctions to the country are extremely high for an economy like ours in its stage of national reconstruction. In addition to the direct costs of imposing these sanctions, it is important to add other economic losses which come from not having available those revenues to invest in the country. Huge efforts are being made to change the balance of payments of the country. Right now, besides the traditional agricultural goods that we have been exporting, we’re now exporting manufactured or industrial goods, such as, fridges and refrigerators, stoves, cement, wagons, garments, etc. Most of the imports of the country are spent on equipments, which will stimulate the economic growth of the country, and generate internal capacity. The second aspect is related to foreign loans to the country. A country like ours with international trade with other countries must manage its financial resources very well. You know very well some countries that do not manage their financial resources very well. We don’t need to talk about them because you already know some of them. Thus, as a common international practice, we also resort to foreign loans whenever we import equipment such as machinery, vehicles, trucks, and other equipment. It would not make much economic sense for us to pay with cash for our imports, and it would not be possible for any country to buy or pay with cash for every import. Just like you Americans and British and even the Germans from the Federal Republic, you don’t pay with cash for all your imports. This is despite the fact that you issue billions and trillions of US dollars. You don’t pay with cash for all your imports. When we export some products, we promote investments for exports. We can say in advance, today, that one of the most distinctive and visible characteristics of our trade relations with other foreign countries: the Mozambican foreign debt is very insignificant. For example, if we had to pay the whole amount of our foreign debt by the year 2000, we would be able to do so immediately. This is something that many countries cannot do. There are some countries that saw their foreign debts forgiven. These countries were supposed to pay their foreign debt, and they were in debt for more than 10 years. However, England and other Nordic countries pardoned the foreign debt of these countries, and you know which ones. The foreign debt of some of the countries pardoned was in the range of billions of dollars… of billions of dollars and not millions. We wouldn’t apply for such debt forgiveness, unless we had fallen into debt by then to apply for such forgiveness… [Joke and laughs]…

Audience: Laughs

Samora Machel: our debt would have been forgiven. (laughs). But, this doesn’t exclude the fact that we have temporary problems in our treasury. Some of these problems have been overcome through an expansion of the bilateral relations between our central bank and many other banks worldwide including banks in the United States of America. One more aspect of your question is related to our relations with other international financial institutions. With regards to this issue, we have been examining our possible participation and involvement in many different international financial institutions. We are already members of African Bank for Development. We were admitted recently as observers in the negotiations, which are underway to revise the Lomé Convention. We have been examining our participation in the economic organization of socialist countries [East European and USSR]- Council of Mutual Economic Help. With regards to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank, we’ve been studying carefully the kind of relations that we’ll develop with these institutions. We’re examining the kind of relations that we’ll establish and develop with these institutions. We are paying close attention to the behavior, methods, and actions of these institutions in different countries and the ways in which those methods and actions are reconcilable with our national interests of protecting our national sovereignty. The kind of relations that we’re seeking to establish with different international institutions and countries should provide mutual benefits and advantages, and these relations should always respect and safeguard the sovereignty of the countries involved. These relations should also respect the political, economic, and social choices of each country, and their right to freely choose their development strategy. The development approach of the People’s Republic of Mozambique is socialism.

Iain Christie: During the colonial period, there was a wide disparity in the distribution of wealth in the country. What is your plan to address this? How did you plan to make a qualitative distribution in terms of price of goods, wages of workers, and interests for the capitalists?

Samora Machel: Let’s rest a little bit. Let’s rest a little bit, aren’t you tired?

Short Break

Iain Christie: During the colonial period, there was a wide disparity in the distribution of wealth in the country. What is your plan to address this? What is your plan to eliminate this unequal distribution of wealth in terms of prices of goods, wages for workers, and interests for capitalists?

Samora Machel: How are we going to eliminate the unequal distribution of wealth? In the distribution of wealth. To first improve the distribution of wealth in the country it is important to tackle and eliminate the wide disparities in terms of income that the class- biased colonial regime had promoted. This is a social objective of the new socialist society, which ensures that each citizen has a prosperous, dignified and happy life. The People’s Republic of Mozambique is committed to develop social policies designed to improve the living conditions of people. Today, none spends money for his/her health; none pays for medical treatment in the hospitals; none pays for expensive medicines. Medicine is accessible for any Mozambican through payment of a symbolic price [subsidized]. The nationalization of habitation and housing [buildings for rent] has allowed the access of the population to the cities. This has also helped to drop significantly the costs of renting houses and apartments. School education through grade 6 is free, and this education policy fulfills the right of people to education. With regards to public transportation, state and government investments in this sector have improved significantly the circulation of people. Fares to use public transportation have been kept at minimal and affordable levels. Prices of basic goods are subsidized by the state and the prices are kept relatively low for basic goods, such as, fresh milk, condensed milk, sugar, corn/maize flower, rice, peanuts, bread, fish, and meat, and this excludes first grade meat, which we will talk about later. The prices of non essential goods didn’t change significantly and they have remained stable since independence although their costs of production have risen. The prices of secondary goods or superfluous, such as canned food, high quality dress, and other durable goods have risen. Parallel to this, the new tax policy has reduced the taxes imposed to the very low income people while increasing the taxes to those with high income. The reduction of wages securely promotes in the state [apparatus] – the ration is 1 to 10. Thus, the better redistribution of wealth produced [in the country] is being carried out, eliminating the colonial contradiction where there was a large mass of extremely poor Mozambicans living side by side with a small bourgeoisie that appropriated most of the national wealth of the country. This is the aspect that we are interested in.

Iain Christie and Allen Isaacman: [Background consultation between Ian Christie and Allen Isaacman]

Samora Machel: There is the question of the quality of living conditions

Iain Christie: Comrade President answered the first question…

Allen Isaacman: you Comrade President mentioned today that the majority of the population has access to education and health, which is in contrast to what happened during the colonial period where vast masses of people didn’t have access to schools and health services. We also know that most of teachers and physicians were white Portuguese and they ran away leaving behind a huge lack of qualified personnel. We also know that there is a big lack of materials. In these very difficult circumstances, did the quality of services change?

Samora Machel: first, yes, the quality of services has changed. It was necessary. The quality has changed. Not only the services changed, but also the content. The content has changed and also the goals. And what about the rest when the content and goals have changed? Changes have taken place in the education sector; profound changes have also taken place in the health sector. Even the education sector has also experienced profound changes. But, there are serious problems. When we talk with workers, and we talked with them in the worker’s day, and we ask them many times the following questions: who attended the schools? Who benefited from the best services in the hospitals? Who benefited from the best and highly qualified medical personnel especially physicians [during the colonial period]? They can’t answer these questions. These changes are necessary. These changes have given us independence. These changes have given us independence. Let’s start from the health sector. First, let’s talk about education. Let’s take alphabetization (early literacy) as a case in point. During the colonial period, there was no talk about alphabetization. Perhaps, it would be very interesting if the Portuguese rethink and they started a campaign of alphabetization in their own country. If they started a campaign to teach their citizens how to read and write in Portugal. What are the illiteracy rates in Portugal?

Allen Isaacman: The illiteracy rate in Portugal is estimated at 40%.

Samora Machel: I was about to say that the rate of illiteracy in Portugal is about 30%. It is estimated at 35% to 40% of illiteracy. That’s why we touched on this subject. This is the first issue. But, because of their pride of being Europeans, it would be scandalous if the Portuguese started a campaign of alphabetization [early literacy] particularly when we take into account that Portugal as a nation exists for more than 800 years. Laughs. Portugal as a country, nation and people exists for more than 800 years. I will tell you some stories. During the war of liberation, we made some prisoners of war, and they were Portuguese soldiers. We distributed paper to each one of them to make their declarations. You friend Iain Christie know very well that we published the MozambiqueRevolution with letters and declarations. So, they received paper to write their declarations, and one of them brought us his paper with drawn lines and stripes, and we looked at his paper. There were no letters, no alphabet, and we didn’t know if that was a new alphabet and we were trying to figure out if it was a new alphabet, or German, Arabic, Asian, Indian, Chinese. So, we asked him to read for us. “Please, can you read that?” So, he replied “ah, don’t tell me that you Sirs don’t know how to read?” Laughs …

The audience laughs and laughter

Samora Machel: Laughs. Look at this. “Ah, don’t tell me that you sirs don’t know how to read?” Laughs. This experience is very common for those who have been in Portugal as students especially black students who have been in Portugal. Some Portuguese women standing at bus station waiting for buses – do you call ônibus or autocarro?- many Portuguese women who don’t know how to read when they go to the bus station and because they are ashamed to address another white European, they approach the blacks and ask them “listen, where are you going?” Laughs. Do you know why they are asking this question? Do you know why they ask “where are you going?” the black answers, “I am going to such and such place” and when the black walks into the bus, the woman also walks in, and she doesn’t mind what direction the bus is going. But, if the black is hesitant to answer the question “no, don’t ask me where I am going”, she will insist with the black “come on; tell me where you are going. Come on; tell me where you are going” and the black remains adamant to answer the question, “I don’t have to tell you where I am going to” the woman will insist “Come on; tell me where you are going.” She is ashamed and embarrassed to ask “please, what is the bus number that goes to such and such place? Tell me the bus number for such and such place because they are many buses coming” See this mentality. Laughs.

Audience: Laughs

Samora Machel: That’s why we say alphabetization is an achievement of the revolution! Widespread and organized alphabetization of people is designed to fight against illiteracy in the country, a situation which was caused by the colonial domination in Mozambique. Alphabetization as the first priority is designed to ensure that the illiterate has the right access to information, and scientific and cultural knowledge to overcome his/her state of obscurantism, which was created and perpetuated by traditional education. It is also intended to fight against ignorance, alienation, and the remnants or vestiges of colonial education. Do you see that placard over there about Marxism that you ask me about sometimes? We’ll soon come back to this serious issue. So, every Mozambican must understand the milieu and the context in which his/her life is situated so that they can better act in the transformation of nature and the relations among Men so that they can end misery and the exploitation of Men left behind by colonialism so that they live and enjoy the benefits of their work and the achievements of the revolution. In order to increase production and productivity, we planned the first campaign of alphabetization to benefit 100,000 people, and we focused on the workers of the most productive sectors such as factories, hospitals, communal villages, etc. This campaign exceeded the expectations and covered 130, 000 workers. The second national campaign of alphabetization which will start in 1980 is planned to target 300, 000 workers. We are planning these campaigns with the goal to eradicate illiteracy in our country.

Access to education: The colonial education system served the interests of the colonial bourgeoisie. Schools were designed for the children of white settlers. The few Mozambicans who had access to education were taught in the mission schools, particularly catholic missions. The Concordata of the 1940s which was implemented in 1941, 1942, and 1943 in the colonies. Students worked in the Christian missions’ fields and they also received religious lessons [catechism]. The kind of education and values received in these mission schools were designed to make them accept the colonial domination and the belief that Mozambique was part of a single and unified Portuguese nation. Today, education is for everyone, and basic education is free. In 1973, there were 588,868 students attending school. In 1978, there were 1,419,279 students attending school. In only five years, school attendance increased by more than 100 %. The number of Mozambican students attending the last grades of secondary education and higher education institutions was almost non-existent. We can give as a good example the university. Today, we have more than 82, 000 secondary school students who are children of Mozambican workers. At the university level, we have more than 1,000 students distributed in different courses according to our needs. Training of teachers: the disorganized flight of white Portuguese teachers. Was it good? For us, it was good. What would they teach? They were unable to teach the history of Mozambican people. So, they would not contribute to building a Mozambican personality [identity]. They were unable to teach the geography of Mozambique and for that reason we would remain in an empty space and part of the single and unified Portuguese nation. We would still be called Portuguese. Who would produce the content of books and reading texts? So, it was good that they left. In the colonial system, there was no preoccupation with training teachers. Children of white Portuguese were taught by fellow white Portuguese. Mozambican students were taught by missionaries and school monitors. Many of the school monitors didn’t have grade four. Teachers who taught at “Escolas de Habilitação de Posto” or teachers for the rural areas also called teachers for the natives. You were director for training teachers for the natives; you know very well what I’m talking about. Samora Machel: Escolas de Professores para Habilitação de Indígenas. Escola de Habilitação de Professores Indígenas [Schools for Training Native Teachers]. She was there, Cabo Delgado. We made great efforts after 1975, and particularly following the great achievements of nationalization, which ended the private education. We started to train new teachers in increased numbers according to the goals of a revolutionary education to benefit the entire country. According to the historical, cultural, and social reality of our country, we will retrain all existing teachers in order to ensure that they act together and that they maintain their on-going political, pedagogical, and scientific engagement. In order to achieve these goals, we created ten training centers and four retraining centers. Until 1978, 3, 474 teachers were trained in the new training centers and 12,456 teachers attended the retraining centers. We are training teachers in the following disciplines: mathematics, biology, chemistry, physics, Portuguese, history and geography. Problems. The first main problem we are facing now is the lack of teachers to meet the increased demand of many students. The second problem is the lack of buildings for secondary school students although we have the initiative to build schools using sticks. The third problem is the lack of school materials and equipment such as books, labs, workshops, and other student and pedagogical materials. For now, we are going to import some of the material such as pencils, erasers, and color pencils, etc. This is the situation.

Samora Machel: That’s why we are gradually introducing free and mandatory education.

With regards to the health sector. The main characteristic of the health sector left behind by the Portuguese colonial administration was discrimination. Discrimination was the fundamental characteristic of colonial health services. Economic discrimination was very visible in the private health services, which were only accessible to the urban bourgeoisie. There were also differences in terms of services and prices in the government health services. Racial discrimination was visible in the infirmaries: [medical appointments] and other separated services designed for whites and blacks. There was also discrimination in terms of classification of workers and remuneration for different types of health employees. This depended on the color of their skin. Health care was predominant in the cities where there was a big concentration of white settlers. It’s worth mentioning that more than two thirds of physicians in Mozambique were concentrated in Maputo [then Lourenço Marques]. There were no health centers in the rural areas and the existing ones were poorly equipped to provide any kind of assistance to the peasants. The other major characteristic of the Portuguese health service was the emphasis on curative medicine, which was essentially private and lucrative at expense of preventive care. The achievement of our independence allowed the party and the government of the People’s Republic of Mozambique to define health for everybody as an essential objective of the revolution. Following the nationalization of private health services, it was necessary to eliminate racial and socioeconomic discrimination in the health units. Methods of democratic management were introduced in the health units, and there was a shift to give emphasis to preventive medicine. Taking advantage of the experience of the liberated zones during the period of the liberation struggle, we are encouraging the promotion of community health by the community. Our goal is to ensure that the entire population has access to health care. We know that at the present moment it is only possible to provide differentiated and basic health care. With the support of political structures, we promoted campaigns of sanitary education. We took care of cleaning up the environment and sanitation, and we organized a national campaign of inoculation against tuberculosis, tetanus, measles, and smallpox. The success of this campaign allowed the inoculation of the majority of our people, and it is being acknowledged [praised] by the World Health Organization. Smallpox has just been eradicated from our country. Before independence, more than 25,000 children died every year because of measles. In 1978, there were only 110 mortal cases of measles. With regard to physicians: We can say that before independence, there were just a few Mozambican physicians. Today, we can say some dozens of physicians have been trained. When we proclaimed our independence, there were fewer than 20 physicians in the country. Of the 200 to 300 physicians [needed] in the Central Hospital, the Hospital had only 75 physicians at a given time, for a hospital which had between 1,400 and 2,000 beds, for medical appointments. Just to give an example, at the Hospital Central de Maputo [Maputo Central Hospital], there are more physicians and medical experts [now] than during the colonial period because we have international support and assistance. The socialization of medicine ensures free medical access for everyone and free distribution of medicines in the hospital units and centers. These are the three questions that you posed me: education, health, and housing.

Finally the problem of housing. The first question which was posed when we started to address this issue was to establish a consistent housing policy that followed the party line. It was the colonial and capitalist logic to define and establish housing as a reproductive investment designed to serve the privileged minorities. In contrast to this colonial and capitalist policy, we proposed and established housing as a necessity and an essential right of the people, and it should not be a source of exploitation and discrimination, on one hand. On the other hand, housing should be conceived broadly, which means that housing is not just a house, but a network of infrastructures that include water, sewerage system, schools, hospitals, health posts, commerce, parks, and other social institutions. Thus, it is possible to understand why we had to nationalize rental buildings and houses and this is because until recently, they were sources of exploitation and discrimination against our people, serving and benefiting a small and exploitative minority. Today, more Mozambicans have access to adequate housing although many buildings and houses have been occupied almost to their full capacity. This is because buildings and houses had been built only to benefit the colonial bourgeoisie. Therefore, the existing houses and buildings do not respond to our new demands and needs. How are we going to solve the housing problem? Taking into account the existing scarce material and financial resources, and in the current stage of development of our productive forces, we say that the people are the principal agent. We will repeat this: the people are the principal agent to solve this problem. It’s the people relying on their own means and supported by the party and the state; they will have a fundamental role in solving the problem of housing. Europeans are used to having the bourgeoisie- those who have financial resources- create firms or companies to build houses and rent them. This is how the bourgeois cities grow. After building, they rent them. For example, in the United States, there are some plots of land with owners [for the bourgeoisie to build houses]. A building is built on a land of 100 to 200 meters which is owned by someone. The land and the building are then rented to others. This is complicated and we don’t need to rent a space to someone. We will provide housing to our people without having to rent a space to anyone. We will provide housing for all our people. We have time as long as imperialism stops attacking us. It is constantly disorganizing us. Enemy attacks are designed to distract and deflect us from the main and critical issues: social and economic ones. That’s why we say that the party and government support will be critical in helping to solve the problem of housing our people. That’s why we must advance to help organize the population to form and create construction cooperatives to build houses, and also encourage programs that help people build houses for themselves with some support. There are some experiences in Maputo and Chimoio. This is an on-going process, and we are studying a credit policy for housing. We are also studying housing legislation. We are going to pass the land law, which will define different areas for factories, bridges, roads, areas for big projects such as warehouses. By doing this, it will make it easy for our people to build. The type of housing to be built will make use of traditional techniques and also make maximum use of local materials. The construction of these types of houses is being experimented in pilot projects, for example, in Chimoio where we have achieved good results. In terms of state direct intervention in massive construction projects of houses, this will be done gradually according to a broad plan of the economy and depending on the development of the productive forces. In the big centers of production, we will use construction techniques that take into account low cost, rapid and efficient execution of the projects. Thus, we are generalizing the use of prefabricated homes to the entire country. In 1979, every province will have its own construction warehouse for construction materials. In order to ensure that we succeed in these tasks, we will also reorganize the existing construction companies and strengthen them so that they can respond to the new needs. One aspect related to the housing problem is the conception that we have about life in densely populated areas, in this case, cities and communal villages. For us, the inhabitants of such settlements and populated areas must live organized through their local structures of residence so that, on one hand, they will be able to resolve or contribute to solving problems, and on the other hand, they can transform their individual lives into collective lives. In this way, they can establish new types of relations among neighbors. Not the kind of capitalist relations where people live next to each other in the same building but don’t know or talk with each other. There is no contact, but they live in the same building. [Otherwise] we would end up having so much crime. You don’t know if he is a bandit, what he does, his life, his behavior. You know nothing and there is a great distance among people. Thus, the need for communal neighborhoods which will allow us to achieve our conception of life that is consistent with our option of building socialism in Mozambique.

Iain Christie: what is the level of unemployment in the People’s Republic of Mozambique? What are the main causes of this unemployment and what is the strategy to solve this problem?

Samora Machel: Unemployed, since when? There are many unemployed, since when? Director, don’t worry I know what I am going to do and say to our friends [Allen Isaacman and Iain Christie]. It’s something very short; this is the reason why I called you; you have a meeting here at 3: 30pm. Is that so? [Long pause]. It is really very interesting. Truly speaking they [Allen Isaacman and Ian Christie] come from very far. Our comrades never make such kind of questions. It’s normal. Let’s compare between United States and Mozambique. Where do we find more unemployed people? How many unemployed people do you have in the United Kingdom?

Iain Christie: more than a million. We don’t have the statistics and we don’t know how many unemployed people are in Mozambique.

Samora Machel: Laughs. That’s why you say there are many. You say there are many and it sounds as if every Mozambican is unemployed. And because we also don’t have statistics it seems that there are really many unemployed people. We will talk about this in detail. Your question is really interesting. The reality is that there are not only unemployed people in our country but there is also under employment. There are large numbers of workers who don’t work for the entire year or they work only a part of the year. The main reasons for this situation have to do with historical, political and economic conditions experienced by our country for centuries. The historical reasons have to do with the colonial domination that our people and country suffered which didn’t allow the logical development of our country. The colonial domination left behind negative consequences such as 95 % illiteracy. Now, you can imagine. Why does Portugal have unemployment? It is because of illiteracy. We have also inherited a backward rural economy which is typically non-industrial and subsistence. This is our reality. This is the reason why I was asking if you my friends visited the country to see how our people really live. It is also for you to understand the efforts that the state and the party are undertaking. It is only when you see the reality inherited from colonialism; you could have seen the concentration camps [strategic hamlets] in the provinces affected by the war. There wasn’t any economic activity, and there were nearly one million people there. There were 1,500,000 Mozambicans in such concentration camps [strategic hamlets]. This figure was for the provinces affected by war alone. In the neighboring countries such as Tanzania, there were 100,000 refugees, Zambia had between 35,000 and 40,000 refugees, and Malawi and South Rhodesia had double those figures. In the provinces affected by war during the colonial period, there were Mozambicans who became Tanzanians, Malawians, Zambians, Rhodesians. Mozambicans were employed on the white Portuguese farms for a short period of time of at least six months. The political causes emerged because of historical conditions where unemployment was a permanent phenomenon under colonialism and the capitalist system. The unemployment worsens under capitalism with a large mass of unemployed working class. The Portuguese colonial and capitalist system had more emphasis on unskilled workers. The colonial system had more emphasis on unskilled workers. Production was based on the exploitation of cheap labor. They were unskilled workers, and there was never talk about a Mozambican proletariat. The industries were limited to metallurgy, construction, chemical, and mines. The construction industry was the leading one. However, 300,000 Mozambican workers were recruited to work in South African mines, and not in Mozambique. They were very qualified to be employed in South Africa, but they could not find employment in Mozambique. They were employed [in South Africa] as drivers of locomotives, worked in the chemical, construction, metallurgy industries. They also worked as highly skilled workers in the South African mines, but when they returned to Mozambique they were not seen as qualified. Do you see the problem? This Mozambican who is regarded as unemployed here, he is a powerful force in South Africa. Thus, this is the issue that we must contextualize, and we say that the colonial capitalist system engendered a situation of permanent unemployment of the working class. The colonial capitalist system put the emphasis on unskilled workers. Production depended on the use of cheap labor. Workers would be employed to work in construction projects and earn $ 20 escudos per day. $ 20 escudos per day in the construction of this entire city! They used unskilled workers to build this city. Unskilled workers are the ones who built this city. A Portuguese would arrive in this country and he would work for six months as a carpenter and after a year he would become foreman, and after a year and half he would become a master builder, and after two years in a construction project he would become a project constructor [developer]. Economic reasons. The economic causes. Lack of development of many big industries. Our country was viewed as a raw-material producer for factories of the metropolis. The small number of industries existing in the country depended on South Africa because the country was situated as a transit station for the South African and Southern Rhodesian economies. It’s not a terminal, but a transit station for South Africa, Southern Rhodesia, and the rest of the countries [in the region]. In this situation, why wouldn’t you find many unemployed people? Strategies to solve the problem. Building socialism is very necessary for our development and society. In the context of a planned economy, it ensures employment and the right to work for each citizen according to the principles enshrined in our constitution and above all to ensure satisfaction of increasing material, cultural, and moral needs of our society. Ways (methods) of accomplishing this strategy. First it is through a planned economy and a harmonious development of production and productivity. Second, it is to systematically improve the quality of the Mozambican workforce to respond to the scientific and technological demands of developing our country. Third, utilize the total installed capacity of the existing productive units in the country and achieve the highest production and productivity rates in these units. Fourth, creation of new work places and employment centers according to the needs of our economic development and the needs defined by planning. Thus, in this particular context, the creation of heavy industries and other big enterprises are essential, and projects to accomplish this are underway. For example, factories for agricultural implements, trucks, textiles, paper, etc. This means that with effective exploitation of the mineral and agricultural wealth of Mozambique, we can have a shortage of labor within twenty years, and we can become importers of foreign labor. We can resort to foreign labor because we have a population of only 12 million people; 12 million people for a country with nearly 800.000 km² with the wealth that it possesses, for example, in rivers alone; developed agriculture, heavy industry as a driving force.

Iain Christie: what about investment and capital? how you are going to address this?

Samora Machel: We will see that. You asked this question because you know that there are some people who want to come to invest and we defined the areas. Do they want to or not? Talk with them. Convince them. Who gains from this? They are the ones. First, it is the transformation of the countryside with the creation of communal villages. Transforming the state farms into a driving force in the rural areas and creation of basic industrial infrastructures which ensure the effective use of rural labor. Developing the countryside –I’m going to address this question much later. Irrigation of the countryside and establishment of textile and metallurgic factories, gold, iron, coal, copper mines. All these factories will allow us to implement a rational and effective policy of using our work force according to the priorities defined by the economic plan which will be stimulated by the wage system that ensures the same wage for the same work and each one according to his/her own abilities. This is how we think we will solve our problem.

Allen Isaacman: What about the question of unemployment? Maputo doesn’t have much crime.

Samora Machel: That’s why you are smiling. It’s not by accident that you raised the question; the question of unemployment is linked to crime and delinquency…

Samora Machel: The main characteristics of a socialist society are the establishment of relations of cooperation and fraternity among men. Man is no longer the wolf of another Man. Do you know what a wolf is? The struggle against the causes of crime; you remember, my friends, when the government of national transition took over, when we defined [the objectives]. The goal is not simply to solve the crime cases, but it is to eliminate the causes. The struggle against the causes of crime and the social conditions that cause crimes are an integral part of the construction of socialism. During the war in the liberated zones, we had almost eliminated crime. Do you remember that in his province Cabo Delgado people would hurt each other using knives and cutlasses during the cashew nut season? Cabo Delgado province is a very good example.

Iain Christie:

Samora Machel: while drinking, people would use knives and cutlasses to solve their conflicts and some of these conflicts involved women and girls. They would kill each other. During the war, we solved these problems. However, these [crimes] were more widespread in areas occupied by the enemy, and not in the liberated zones. In the areas occupied by the enemy, these problems would increase. Crime problems affected the big cities and areas under occupation by the colonial fascist troops. Do you see? In our liberated areas, there was no crime, but in the areas occupied by the enemy there was crime. They had all the available means to tackle crime and we didn’t have any and we worked under many constrains and difficulties. The population was forced to live in the concentration camps; the so-called aldeamentos [strategic hamlets] faced problems of unemployment and idleness, and systematic discrimination against women. If you sold a a pen like this one, you could see a naked woman. [If] you wanted to have good sells of newspapers you would bring in all kinds of [women pictures in the paper]. Our newspaper has in fact quality, and these are qualities for a newspaper. The systematic discrimination of woman – this is what I am saying for you to understand- [she] was an instrument of propaganda. Naked in several positions – that was the [colonial] newspaper. Discrimination against women. Indifference towards the moral and civic values of youth: drug addiction and drunkenness were essential elements of the colonial policy that encouraged crime. Now, do you see? I am answering your questions. At the time of our victory, there were tens of thousands of prostitutes in the big cities. In this city alone, we could find the Aquário, Quaresma, Pinguim, Lúzio and many other places. Someone in the audience adds: Rua Araújo.

Samora Machel: Rua Araújo. Rua Araújo. So, at the time of victory [transition government and independence], there were tens of thousands of prostitutes, thousands of drug addicted, networks of drug trafficking, clandestine and illegal games, gangs of professional robbers; these networks had many connections with the colonial policy especially with the political police. They worked as mass organizations of western secret police. It’s not by accident that these networks of professional robbers had connections with the police. They had connections with banks and other many services. Now, see their present connections. Gangs of robbers with connections with certain structures. Our struggle against crime involves three main aspects: the political, economic, and social struggles and administrative measures. Do you understand me? Administrative measures. Objectives. More than just reprimand the delinquent, the goal is to save him/her and above all to eliminate the causes of delinquency. Right after our victory and during the transition [to independence], we launched big campaigns designed to mobilize and organize the population in the struggle against banditry. The population was invited to participate. Who is the victim? It’s in the people. The newly created Grupos Dinamizadores played an important role. Simultaneously, we introduced administrative measures, in this case, closing down certain places where there were concentrations of delinquents and criminals. We started creating centers for reeducation of prostitutes, people with drug addiction, and petty thieves. Pro… procri… procri…“prosimétrico”… pro… do you call pro… do you call “prosimétricos” or “procri”?

Someone in the audience: “prosimétrico.”

Samora Machel: My director is going to explain to you what “prosimétrico” means. Drug traffickers. A good number of some of the leaders of gangs of robbers very early –listen to this carefully- very early, they opted for another nationality and abandoned the Mozambican territory. They left, and you know where they went. Many of them went to England and they are still there with you. They wear ties and drink everyday, and with their groups they are performing. In the reeducation centers, they learned new professions and gained working habits, and many thousands of them have been recovered and reintegrated in the normal life. Thus, some results have been obtained. The statistics of the capital are very significant for a place that was the center of crime in the country, Maputo, then Lourenço Marques. Before the independence, there were on average close to 1,500 homicides annually.

Someone in the audience: only in Maputo city?

Samora Machel: no, no. The figure was for the entire country with incidence in Lourenço Marques. Maputo had the highest crime rates. In 1977, there were 171 homicides, and 1978 there were only 83. Of these homicides, there were only two homicides that were motivated by robbery, and other crimes were related to cases of superstition, and skirmishes caused by alcoholism. From 1977 to 1978, physical offenses decreased from 329 cases to 234 cases in the entire Maputo Province. Robberies have also decreased substantially; in 1977 there were nearly 5,000 cases of robbery and 1978 there were 4,000 cases of robbery in the entire Maputo Province. The creation of green zones and industrialization provided more working places. Widespread increase in terms of education and cultural knowledge, the social pressure against alcoholism, the increased responsibility that citizens have towards society, and reconstruction of the Police Services, and its better integration in the masses, the development of vigilant groups are fundamental factors that allow us to predict with some optimism the complete elimination of crime in our society in a very near future.

Iain Christie: when talking about living standards, you have to talk about the supply of food. How do you plan to solve the problem of food supply since there are still many queues? What is the main strategy to solve this problem?

Samora Machel: of queues? Who do you find in the queues? You find mostly women and children in the queues. Women and children are the majority in the queues. First this is a normal phenomenon in many African countries after independence where people move to the cities. It is a general trend to leave the countryside and move to the cities. [The perception] is that independency is in the city. This is the first cause. This is aggravated by the appointment of new leaders who replaced the colonial administration. I don’t know if I’m making myself clear. Suppose a couple with employment in Maputo and they come from Gaza, Inhambane, Sofala, Cabo Delgado, and Niassa. The first thing the man does is to uproot and remove his wife from agricultural production, and bring her to the city where she becomes a housewife to cook for him. Right? She doesn’t have another occupation, and she is only going to become a housewife and cook. Isn’t this correct Mazuze? She stopped producing in the countryside and came to the city where she will stay unproductive. She is only going to stay as a housewife and cook. She doesn’t have any task. She is not working in a factory; she is not related to any productive work. This is the first source. The second [source]; it is not enough to bring his wife to the city without a job. He brings his mother-in-law to the city, and this is not enough. He brings is mother, then his brothers followed by his brother-in-laws. So, he has close to six, seven, and eight people to stay with him and live at his expense in the same house. If we have 5,000 people who bring 8 people to their homes, how many people are we going to have in the Maputo City? This is a normal exodus everywhere in the world, and [the perception] is that independence [freedom] is in the city. This is aggravated by the new appointed leaders and the increased wages. During the colonial period, 3,000 escudos was not enough to meet the needs and support such big families. A man could not meet the needs of such a big family that included mother-in-law, brothers. They would remain in the countryside working in the fields and he received food from the countryside to sustain himself because the 3,000 escudos were not enough for his survival. However, with independence and increased wages, they occupied spacious homes enough to accommodate between eight and nine people. Right? In 1979, we observed this phenomenon. The second phenomenon which is perhaps special or specific to the People’s Republic of Mozambique or even specific to the former Portuguese colonies is the disorganized flight of all shopkeepers who in their flight destroyed all infrastructures, and undermined the food supply networks. None had experience in bringing peasant foodstuffs to the cities. None had practical experience with the food supply system. There was even less experience with importing goods from abroad. It is very understandable that they destroyed the infrastructure and there is little infrastructure remaining built with cement. The other phenomenon which is important to highlight –a phenomenon very difficult to solve in our country- this is the reason why we say that queues are caused by many factors, various factors, and some of them include the increased purchasing power of the population; significant changes in eating habits; difficulties in the food supply system, problems in expanding the food distribution network, and decline in food production. The purchasing power of our people increased. There was a substantial increase in wages. Health and education expenses do not affect family budgets. As a result of the nationalization of these sectors, house rent expenses also decreased substantially allowing many segments of the population to have access to decent housing. Therefore, there have been important changes food habits of consumer, for example, while during the colonial period the maximum consumption of fish was 10,000 tons per year, today the consumption of fish is more than 30,000 tons of fish a year. In 1974, the consumption of potatoes in Mozambique was 80,000 tons. In 1978, the consumption of potatoes was 110,000 tons. In 1973, the consumption of cooking oil was 12,000 tons. In 1978, the consumption of cooking oil jumped to 20,000 tons. Pay attention to these changes. The consumption of mostly imported wheat will surpass 135,000 tons. In the past, these products were reserved almost exclusively to the white settler population. The great stability of prices in basic foodstuffs in our country has allowed an increased number of people to consume these goods. Since 1975, a kilogram of sugar and rice has remained at 8$50 and 13$50 escudos, respectively. Soap, maize flower, bread, fish, chicken, milk, beef have remained stable at the prices of 1975. It was only the first grade beef commonly called roast beef [veal] which increased from 66$ escudos a kilogram in 1976 to 78$ escudos a kilogram in 1977. Simultaneously, as the demand and consumption increased, some difficulties were detected. Before independence, petty trade was not allowed to Mozambicans. I’m going back to the subject I’ve talked about before. The sale of one escudo worth of eggs, matches, needles, charcoal, and petrol, or 50 cents worth of tea: this kind of petty trade was in the hands of white Portuguese settlers. Thus, the massive departure of white settlers caused a severe breakdown in the food supply and market networks. Little by little the numbers of consumer cooperatives are increasing which increases the number of shops. Note for instance that outside Maputo City center you don’t find a single supermarket. There isn’t any supermarket and there never was any supermarket outside of Maputo. Equally, we’re improving the transport network and the supply of foodstuffs which had disappeared when the white settlers abandoned the country. The flight of the white settlers resulted in a sharp decline in productivity in several farms around the urban centers. It is only now that some of these farms are being recovered: Moamba and Marracuene. Farms located in these areas supplied Maputo city with foodstuffs. They [the producers] ran away. Who was a farmer and who owned a tractor during that time? The main issue affecting the rural areas is the supply of manufactured goods to the peasants. The experiences resulting from campaigns to market cashew nuts, cotton, and other goods and the organization of communal villages have been contributing progressively to solving the problems of supplying goods to the rural areas. Solving the problem of food supply ultimately depends on increased production and improvement of the food supply network. That’s where the solution of food supply rests. Iain Christie: you comrade President said that culture is central to the Mozambican revolution and you also talked about building a new revolutionary Mozambican culture based on the rich traditions of the Mozambican people and on the principles of [single family]. Can you give some examples of the development of this cultural perspective?

Samora Machel: we’ll see that there are several examples. There are several examples of the development of the countryside. In the past, our people could not sing and when they started singing, their songs had profound religious connotations. But today, [the culture] is being freed. We are noticing the development of dances including some which had disappeared in the 1940s when catholic missionaries attacked our culture: they considered our entire culture, all forms of dances as dances of pagans. New kinds of paintings are emerging today. However, if we look at the paintings of 1973 and 1974 and prior to these days, we see that all of the paintings were designed to please the boss [white settlers]. It’s the kind of paintings that praise the bourgeoisie, and it’s through them that people admire the bourgeoisie. With regards to sculptors, I have seen many. In terms of literature, you might have read some texts in the newspapers and magazines and see the new trends. The definition of ethic concepts; I could talk about the new expositions that are taking place all over the country and the increasing number of visitors to the museums and libraries. I don’t know the number of publications that each province has, such as people’s newspaper, small brochures. What we don’t have is the capacity to direct these initiatives and print some of these publications. We don’t have. If we had the capacity to direct these initiatives and skilled personnel in all the capitals [we could print some of these publications]. There are rich materials which are disappearing. Perhaps, because of its spectacular character and because it was the biggest popular cultural manifestation in the history of our country, I will mention the first national festival of popular dance. There were 600,000 dancers involved in every category. There were more than 5,000,000 spectators. Have you ever had something similar in England and in the United States where you would involve 600.000 dancers? You have never have such experience in England and the United States where 600,000 dancers were involved. This event took place [at different levels] small villages, localities, districts, provinces, and the nation. Everyone was involved. Everyone contributed; everyone danced. All of us danced. During the preparatory work for this festival, several dances of our folklore, which had been suppressed, were rediscovered and recovered. Several studies were conducted about these dances. Many musical instruments were resuscitated and they now appear on the radio and we hear them. I heard and saw people playing some of these instruments when I was only 8 and 10 years old. Some of them had totally disappeared, but they are now reappearing with vigor. Many of these dances had religious connotations and expressed feudal relationships, and during the festival there were discussions that helped free these dances from such feudal connotations and transform them into dances of artistic expression. For its dignity, simplicity, architectural style and beauty, I can talk about the construction of the monument for Mozambican heroes. It fills us with emotion, and we also take pride in it. It was conceived by all Mozambican architects. It was a contribution of all Mozambican architects, and you can see the monument. Samora Machel: When we talk about certain things we become emotional. This is a very strong people, you know.

Allen Isaacman: Mr. President, we had a question about women which we didn’t include and it might be important to include it now in connection with the law of nationality.

Samora Machel: Very well…

Allen Isaacman: In your speech in the first conference of the Mozambican women’s organization in 1973

Samora Machel: Don’t raise that question now; bring it back later.

Samora Machel & Allen Isaacman: We’re now talking about people’s power.

Samora Machel: It doesn’t matter. You mean the question about the city?

Samora Machel: So, connect those questions. What is the FRELIMO policy to stimulate the increase in production?

Samora Machel: There were two questions… What is the FRELIMO policy to stimulate the increase in production?

Allen Isaacman: We have already discussed this issue.

[After a short interruption]

Allen Isaacman: In your speech in the first conference on Mozambican women in 1973, Comrade President noted that without the emancipation of women the revolution would not succeed. We know that the struggle for emancipation [of women] is a long and difficult one. But, can we say that after these six years the situation of women has improved a lot? Second, what are the obstacles that impede the emancipation of women?

Samora Machel: Until 1973, we had the armed struggle which was an impetus to involve women as armed guerrillas and politically armed [equipped]. There was a direct involvement of women which accelerated their emancipation. In the second conference after independence, we defined the tasks for women’s emancipation, and we said it was production. We said it was their involvement in production. And how do we implement this? We see the involvement of women in factories in all provinces. We also see them involved in agriculture. For the first time, we see the first women as trimmers in Cabo Delgado Province. I think there are about 30 women as trimmers in Cabo Delgado

Someone in the audience: [corrects the figure] There are 22 women trimmers…

Samora Machel: I think there are about 30 women trimmers in Pemba for the first time, and they worked for the first time to load the ship “Pemba” which is on its way here. They are involved in economic activities which emancipate them from domestic work. During the colonial period, if I’m not mistaken, there were some problems in cashew nut factories in Gaza province, especially in Manjacaze district, where no women were allowed to work but only men. We see women working in agricultural cooperatives. I mean outside the sectors normally reserved for women. They were expected to be involved in social issues such as education and health, and take care of childcare centers. We also see the political involvement of women at all levels. So, the main obstacles for women today are no longer those prejudices and stereotypes. The main obstacle for woman today is men. We have been observing [some form of male sexism] at the party level and in mass democratic organizations such as OMM, OJM, and ONJ. We men do not accept that our wives assume more responsibilities than we do. The fact that a woman has more responsibility than the man becomes a disturbing factor in the family. So, I don’t know if this should be the women’s emancipation or men’s emancipation. Your question; this problem doesn’t affect only Mozambique but also the rest of the world. A husband may be unemployed and his wife employed, but he will never accept the idea of being at home taking care of children because he is unemployed. Although he is unemployed, he still wants to see his wife take care of children while he is going out. This is not unique to Mozambique. Now, I don’t know if this is a men’s or a women’s problem. Another problem is the refusal to fully accept that women’s intellectual abilities are the same as men’s. It’s not only a matter of accepting women’s physical abilities. There are still some problems in accepting women’s intellectual abilities, and this should be overcome. This problem still affects developed societies where there are still problems in accepting that women have the same intellectual and mental abilities as men’s. There are prejudices that women are intellectually inferior to men. It has been like this in Mozambique because of feudal and traditional customs. Illiteracy also contributes significantly to these stereotypes. In our case, illiteracy and ignorance are contributing factors, and women passively accept this with some degree of resignation and they are even proud to be inferior to men. These issues are very serious. All over the world, men don’t fully accept women’s [intellectual] abilities and the work distribution and sharing, particularly in the domestic space. These problems are also present in the factories. Even in the most developed countries, women’s issues are very serious. So, there are more obstacles for women in the Mozambican society which is also a very backward, semi- feudal, and colonial capitalist society.

Allen Isaacman: Can you, Mr. President, talk about this anomaly which is the law of nationality?

Samora Machel: suppose if we asked our people, what will be their answer? Suppose we asked this question to the people. Suppose a lady gets married among us Mozambicans; the girl leaves her home for my home? How is it in England? Who moves out? It’s all over the world. Let’s start from this practice [of a bride leaving her parents’ house for her husband’s house]. Let’s start from the practice without going to the scientific definition. Suppose my friend Maguni gets married to a Tanzanian woman; does my buddy Maguni goes to Tanzania or his Tanzanian bride comes to Mozambique? He is not working in Tanzania. You are used in Europe to take in and welcome blacks and Indians who study there and they get married and they stay in England. Audience: Laughs

Samora Machel: They get married and they stay in the United States. You are used to this. You’re very used to this. An English factory worker leaves to work in Germany and gets married there and when his retirement approaches, does he retire and stay in Germany or does he return to England with his wife? It’s a lie, it’s not true. Does he constitute a German society in his house? Is she going to develop a German culture in his house?

Samora Machel & audience: laughs…

Samora Machel: An Englishman or Frenchman gets married with an Englishwoman, is the Englishwoman going to develop the English culture in the midst of French society? It’s a matter of being practical. Let’s see how things are. First, I have to say that I haven’t posed this question to my country for discussion, but it’s a matter for the Central Committee to decide. In 1975, it was during the seventh Central Committee meeting when we discussed the issue of nationality. First, it eliminates opportunistic principles. I don’t know if you understand me very well. It prevents any opportunism. It prevents any possibility for opportunism. We don’t want one leg outside; one must have two legs inside. This is the first aspect. Second, and I’m going to be open about this: state security and defense. This is very important. It’s not as simple as you may think. With this definition, we have eliminated the first foundation of opportunism. Second, to ensure state security. I don’t know if you understand me very well. You’re Europeans and you sometimes don’t understand this. You’ve been independent for a long time and you’ve overcome this. You’re used to mix with each other. Laughs.

Allen Isaacman: can I ask you a question?

Samora Machel: One moment with this question, my friend Isaacman. One minute about these questions, Isaacman. Now, I would ask who is worried about this question: intellectuals and academics who study this. They read the constitution and look at the nationality, and make intellectual assessments. If I put the same question to a peasant in the countryside, what would be his/her answer? If I ask the very same question to a small minority here in Maputo City, a small minority of urbanized and bourgeoisie, those are the ones who are worried about this question. It is this small minority who are worried about this question. It is this small minority that smoothes or flattens the hair and because their hair is white [long hair of white women] is worried about this question. Peasants are not worried about this question. Even in the suburbs of Maputo people are not worried about this question.

Samora Machel: A foreigner who goes to the countryside to get [married with] a female peasant? Laughs…

Audience: Laughs…

Iain Christie: in the cashew nut factory Samora Machel: To meet a female peasant in a cashew nut factory? Laughs… they have never been there…

Iain Christie: There might be some Mozambican women who may want to get married with foreigners. There is a Mozambican woman who married a Zambian man.

Samora Machel: And then she went crazy and returned [to the country]. She went crazy there and returned [to the country] and I don’t know why. Laughs…

Iain Christie: is that so?

Audience: laughs…

Samora Machel: She went mad there and returned [to the country]. I’m well informed. She was looking for material possessions.

Iain Christie: Really!

Samora Machel: The definition of the concept of love. We would take so much time to define the concept of love. We would have to define the concept of love. Looking for material possessions, social promotion, marrying a physician. That’s what the petty bourgeoisie is worried about. Those bourgeois women are more concerned with marrying physicians. A peasant woman, a cashew nut factory worker is not concerned with looking for a physician. Let’s start from practical perspective; from the daily practical experience; the achievement of equality in terms of rights between a man and woman will only be possible with the building of a new society. Listen to this very well; at this moment, we cannot say that they are equal. In terms of definition, they are, but in reality they are not yet. That’s what we have just said. We’re a conscious about this. The achievement of equality between men and women will be possible with advances towards the building of a new society, in this case, the socialist society. In particular, with advances in women’s emancipation. Towards this goal, we are creating the programmatic character of our constitutional principle. The principle of the law of nationality is based on the experience of FRELIMO and the current reality of women in our country. When she gets married, she becomes part of her husband’s family and household. She is an addition to the family and household of her husband. Please, pay very close attention to this. She is an addition to her husband’s family and household, and this is in line with both the traditional and bourgeois societies. Both of them have a patriarchal base. The woman herself doesn’t constitute a family. She doesn’t constitute a family. It’s the husband who constitutes a family. And it’s in that family where she belongs. It’s in that family where she belongs. Ultimately, our law of nationality is for her protection. It’s for her not to be regarded as a foreigner where she is. She has to belong to her husband to be what she is. She belongs to her husband’s family and household. If we told her to remain Mozambican, she would be a foreigner in her husband’s family and household. It’s like agreeing that “she marries you and goes with you to your country, but she remains Mozambican.” She would be discriminated against. We are standing for the interests of Mozambican women. Our law protects Mozambican women. I don’t know if I’m making this clear, Iain Christie. Iain Christie: Yes

Samora Machel: If we continue to give Mozambican citizenship to a Mozambican woman who married a foreigner and lives in a foreign country, we are allowing her to be discriminated against in that society. She would not be fully integrated in that society, and she would always remain a foreigner. It is on defense of her rights that we want her to be fully integrated into the household where she belongs [family of her husband]. That she has rights as a Englishwoman because she married a Englishman. Under these conditions, when she marries a foreigner, she is no longer part of a Mozambican family, but she becomes a full member of a foreign family. This is the answer I wanted to give.

Iain Christie: [He says something not very clear because he is far from the recorder]

Samora Machel: Laughs… I’m very interested in this issue. Is this correct Isaacman? Ultimately, we are protecting the Mozambican woman, for her not to be considered a foreigner. If she married a Zambian man, she becomes a Zambian. “She belongs to her husband. You stay there as a Zambian. Visit Mozambican when you want. Do everything you want.” She has the right to vote as a Zambian. She has the right to be elected, but if she remains Mozambican she doesn’t have the right to vote and be elected because she is a foreigner. You can ask another question.

Iain Christie: What are the main achievements of people’s assemblies in the last 18 months?

Samora Machel: To speak of the last 18 months is to talk about the complete existence of people’s assemblies. Given the fact that the elections ended on 4th December of 1977, [we say that] the first achievement were the elections themselves. 1027 people’s assemblies of different levels were elected, with approximately 30,000 representatives [members of People’s Assembly-parliament]. The second achievement was the social composition of the people’s assemblies. Approximately 2/3 of the members [of people’s assembles-parliament] come from the working class and peasantry. There was also great involvement of women who represent close to 1/3 of the total number of members [of people’s assemblies- parliament]. This addresses your question. We started to create executive bodies at different levels which are responsible for people’s assemblies. People’s courts have been created in the provinces, districts, numerous localities and cities. These people’s courts are constituted by people’s assemblies which have been created in numerous districts and in some provinces. The members of people assemblies have started to create commissions designed to effectively control the main social and economic activities. There still is much to be done to put into practice the principle that people’s assembly is the highest state body in its respective level. We have just taken the first steps and we’re conscious about it. Among the first steps include literacy for members of people’s assemblies. The first phase of the first campaign of restructuring the party has allowed the creation of hundreds of cells in workplaces and residential areas as well as the admission of hundreds of thousands of new members. This is another question about the party. This is being systematized: the first achievement, the second achievement, and how they work, their composition and instrument. Can we move to another question?

Allen Isaacman: The first phase of restructuring the FRELIMO party has already been done. How many members does the party have? And more importantly, how were the masses involved in the process of restructuring the party membership?

Samora Machel: The first phase of restructuring the party has allowed the creation of hundreds of party cells in key workplaces and residential areas, and the admission of hundreds of thousands of new members. The party had already members, but the restructuring of the party has allowed the admission of hundreds of thousands of new members. Perhaps, among the Marxist-Leninist parties, FRELIMO is the one with the highest numbers of members and well established. Through its militants the party is present in every part of the country ensuring the effective leadership role of the party in the society and state. The way in which the first campaign of admission of new members was undertaken greatly contributed to increase the prestige of the party among the masses. I think you, my friend Isaacman, remember the closing moments of the party restructuring and what we said to the people. We didn’t say that the people are filters, but we said that the people are filterers. It is the people who know. So, for generations, it’s the people who have been the depository of knowledge. The people never die. The English people exist for I don’t know how many centuries; the German, the Portuguese, the French peoples exist for many centuries; the people never die. So, it is the people that know all the generations. That’s why we went to the people. It may seem strange for a Marxist party to approach the people. The people are not members. Isn’t it? Who knows our life? Who knows our life better than the people? So, we need to contribute to make the party prestigious among the masses. Besides being a subject of discussion, each candidacy to the party …

Samora Machel: those who infiltrated in the midst of the party or those who deviate from the party line.

Iain Christie: I would like you to talk about … I don’t know if I …

Samora Machel: Speak, speak.

Iain Christie: What are the implications of the concept of Marxism-Leninism [in the Mozambican society]?

Samora Machel: That’s the issue I wanted to talk about. That’s exactly the question that interested me so much. I was so much interested on this question. I was trying to say that the question reflects some wrong assumptions. The way the question was raised reflects wrong assumptions about Marxism-Leninism. I am going to prove you. I am going to prove you, Isaacman. Isaacman, I want to prove this point to you so that you can tell your colleagues; so that you can tell your colleagues to link illiteracy with science. The concept itself; how are they going to learn catechism if they’re illiterate? They don’t accept that it is a science. How are they going to learn the Bible if they don’t know how to read and write? That’s the conception, Isaacman. How are they going to read a foreign experience? This is the central issue

Iain Christie: Laughs [he wants to intervene, but he is interrupted]

Samora Machel: I want to prove you. Marxism-Leninism; listen to this very well. This is the central issue. Marxism-Leninism is a science of class. Do you accept that there is class in Mozambique? Do you accept that there is a working class in Mozambique? Do you accept that? Who makes Marxism? Who makes Marxism? Are you a scientist who is closed in your library? Marxism belongs to its creator. Who is the creator of Marxism- Leninism? Marxism-Leninism is a science of class and belongs to its creator, the working-class. Its creator is the people in their century-long struggle against different forms and systems of exploitation. In their century-long struggle, its creator [of Marxism- Leninism, the People] is above all the working class, who because of their specific role in the society, are able to conceive and imagine a new society and a new kind of relations among Men. Who is the best Marxist? Is it the one who is sitting in the library reading compendiums or is it the one who is executing the tasks? It was not among the people who frequently attended the libraries and universities that scientific socialism emerged and evolved. It was not among the agronomists that geometry was invented. It was among the peasants. Right? Geometry was invented among the peasants in their fields while demarcating, and it was not among agronomists. They invented the science there [in the fields]. That’s the type of question raised by intellectuals. It’s a question of intellectuals. That’s why we say it was not in the libraries and universities where the revolutions that transformed the world took place. Correct? Correct? Mozambican workers have a long experience of suffering and struggle against slavery, feudalism, and capitalism. How do you interpret this? Who took over the power in Russia? Who took over power in Russia? Were they university students? Who made the long march in China? Who made the long march in China? Were they university students? Tell me you. When I was marching with you, what were we doing? Those who were standing beside you and protecting you, what were they doing? They don’t know how to read and write. This one who went to war with us didn’t know how to read and write. It was through practical experience. He didn’t even know how to write his own name well, but he was called to serve as an instructor. [This is the question of] bourgeois intellectuals; how is it possible to implement Marxism-Leninism in a country of illiterates? It is not you; you want to provide the answer to your colleagues. That’s the preoccupation of your colleagues. Is it possible to establish socialism in Mozambique with illiteracy?

Iain Christie: But, it was comrade President who said that it was not possible to establish socialism with illiteracy…

Samora Machel: I said it during the campaign of literacy. It is to synthesize; it is to create the capacity to synthesize the experiences. To formulate a theory; they are already doing it but it is important to formulate a theory. There are two things here; the first is to know where the theory comes from; from where the theory comes from? From where the ideas come from? They come from practice. Now, we want to synthesize the practical [experiences]. The goal is to have the ability to synthesize such practical experiences. Illiterate peasants from Cabo Delgado learned the essence of the system of exploitation of men by men from the new group of exploiters represented by [Urias] Simango, Lázaro [Kavandame] who wanted to introduce exploitation in the liberated zones. It was not a Marxist who went to tell them what exploitation was; they didn’t read any compendium. But they felt the exploitation and knew their exploiters. Let’s fight them. There were the ones who fought and made the cooperatives succeed against the private and exploitative commerce and latifundium. There were the ones who fought and made the people’s power succeed. There were the ones who made the working-class power succeed against the bourgeoisie and latifundium powers that the new exploiters wanted to impose. They don’t know where the door of the university is; they don’t even know the door and the way that leads to the university. They don’t know. The popular struggle for liberation and our military science which defeated the colonial and fascist generals were elaborated and developed by our illiterate people. Marxism-Leninism does not come to our country as an imported product. Highlight this very well, this is the idea that we want to fight against, the idea that it is a foreign policy, an imported product or a result of reading classical texts {Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao]. Our party is not a group of scientists specialized in reading and interpreting Marx, Engels, and Lenin. Our party is not like that. The struggle of our working class people and their experiences of suffering allow them to assume and interiorize the principles of scientific socialism. This same struggle contributes to the development and continuous enrichment of what constitutes the common heritage of all exploited classes and people, Marxism- Leninism. In the process of struggle, we synthesize our experiences and we further develop our theoretical knowledge. It’s different. The first thing is to arrive at a theory – how to wage war and then go to fight the war. We first [fight the war] and then synthesize by solving the problems on a daily basis. Party members who are illiterate are subjected to special campaigns of literacy in order to ensure that they further increase their understanding and knowledge of the world. We think that this is in fact the experience of all socialist revolutions. This is what I wanted to say.

Iain Christie: It’s an important answer … laughs…

Samora Machel: yes, it is. I’m not only replying to you, but it is through you… laughs…

Allen Isaacman: We discussed the following question and we came to the conclusion that it doesn’t have much importance…

Samora Machel: It is important. I know it. It is not only you. Avoid the petty bourgeoisie and you’ll not be corrupted; power corrupts; that’s the question you have there… laughs… it’s the essential content of question D. What is the question?

Allen Isaacman and Iain Christie: How is FRELIMO going to avoid the abuse of power?

Samora Machel: How is FRELIMO going to avoid the abuse of power, nepotism, and many other things? This is what you want to know. Isn’t it? How is the party going to avoid this? I’m right. Because the petty bourgeoisie will eventually go astray as we develop and bureaucratize the party, and then we lose our ties with the people; we lose the contacts with the people, and under these circumstances abuses of power take place. The question is fair, but the answer is not for you. It is for your friends. I’m answering these questions to your friends; this question is for your friends. Because they might be thinking that he has only two or three years in power, and when he industrializes and does many other things in the country, we will corrupt him. And they make comparisons with other countries and predict the same scenarios here. They also think that “when they have oil, if they can transform cashew nuts into oil.” Here, there is no oil, but cashew nuts. Our party has a long experience with embezzlement and abuses that arise from the exercise of power. We know this very well. During the process of our struggle, certain critical mechanisms were developed and put into practice, and they became important habits for us. Criticism is an important aspect among us. Criticisms in party institutions and mass criticism. It is not only inside the party, but also among the masses. Do the masses identify themselves with the power [political establishment] or not? From where does the leadership come from? Does the leadership know the real interests of the people in each phase or not? I mean the leadership of the party and the state. Thus, popular vigilance is extremely high, and we strive to increase it further. The leadership structures are in permanent contact with the masses and they receive from them opinions, criticisms, suggestions, and proposals. We are institutionalizing this. This is the best way. This is the best way to have admiration, prestige, and to be a permanent representative. This is the way to be in good condition to be able to solve problems and receive suggestions, proposals and criticisms from the people. The democratic mass organizations are widespread in all sectors of the society like working places and residential areas. The militants of the party have the right to address all institutions or structures of the party including the central committee. That’s their right. Equally, national citizens who are not members of the party have the right to address the leadership of the state including the head of state. That’s their right. There are other forms including writing. There are structures and channels to address the head of state. Who asked me about that woman who married with a Zambian, and I said she came back and she is sick.

Iain Christie: Laughs

Samora Machel: I welcomed her as a Mozambican and I talked with her. She is here, and I’m not sure if she left. She was here in Maputo. She is the niece of Lobo our representative in the United Nations. Her father is our cadre over there. The letters of readers in the newspapers, don’t you think this is a new form [of expression] in Mozambique? Popular correspondence where people write everything.

Iain Christie: [Ian says something not audible]

Samora Machel: It’s lack of capacity on your part. You find such letters in newspapers and magazines. Tempo magazine reveals several problems to us, and we take action. Whatever problem is reported in Tempo magazine, such as, hotel, bus, or anything. It is also an important source of political control. There are well known cases of elements of the party leadership and state functionaries who were demoted from their positions and were exposed publicly for having digressed from the political line and having had incorrect behavior. When we proclaimed our independence, we started with the armed forces, a delicate sector. We started with the armed forces. In these circumstances, it seems possible to say that eventual abuses of power that might emerge will be rapidly detected and sanctioned. This is the answer. Foreign policy. Foreign policy… foreign policy…

Iain Christie: In your public speech in September of last year, you, comrade President, talked about the rebellious act of the Ian Smith regime towards the guerrillas. With these tactics, what are the possibilities of formation of a neocolonial regime in Southern Rhodesia?

Samora Machel: You mean in Zimbabwe?

Iain Christie: Is this issue solved?

Samora Machel: No, no, it is not yet. This issue is not solved yet. Are you saying this because of the declarations from England today? It is typical of imperialistic forces to transfer their crimes to the liberation movements. That is their true nature, their true characteristic: in Algeria, Vietnam, Palestine, Mozambique, and Nicaragua. The patriots [nationalists] are always treated as terrorists and rebels. Don’t be surprised about this and this will continue for sometime; the question of Zimbabwe is not solved yet. With internal agreements and recently with fake electoral processes, the racist regimes in Namibia and Southern Rhodesia tried to mask the pretense democratic legitimacy and legality. These are imperialist forms to find a way to undermine the true militants. They are now discussing in England. It’s a tactic of imperialism. It’s part of their global strategy; the masks do not change the essence of the regimes; the masks don’t change the essence of the regimes. Salazar and Hitler also organized elections and referendums, and that didn’t change the despotic and criminal nature of their regimes. The racist armies controlled the elections in Namibia and Southern Rhodesia. They forced people to vote and they arrested activists and personalities who opposed forged electoral processes. Large farm and industry owners carried their workers or employees in their trucks to the ballot boxes under the watchful and vigilant eyes of the police. The false character of electoral pretensions was evident to everyone. The same reasons that made the previous maneuvers fail will lead to the failure of these current maneuverings. They will lead to their failure. No matter how black the new black puppet ministers are, they will never stop prosecuting their own people. They will never stop the executions of their people because they are puppets. They will not stop public assassinations disguised as deaths in crossfire. They will not stop with curfews, concentration camps; thus, the people of Zimbabwe will continue fighting and identify themselves with the patriotic front. Because talking about the patriotic front is talking about the people of Zimbabwe at this moment. They will continue, as they announced, with open aggressions against the sovereign neighboring countries. They will continue to act as puppets. The credibility and viability of these regimes has already been questioned and denounced by the non-aligned movement, the African Union Organization, and recently by the Security Council. That’s why we can say that the Patriotic Front is an achievement of the people of Zimbabwe. It’s a decisive step and a step forward to overcome the inherited historical divisions which were fomented by the enemy. Unity is not a static state; it must be seen as a dynamic and a dialectic process. It is a dynamic process of continued growth, which is a result of maturity and the conscience of the people facing the demands of the struggle. The militants of the Patriotic Front have been achieving indisputable successes in coordinating their activities. We know that. We cannot forget the complete failure of an effort to recruit one of the wings of the Patriotic Front to support the internal agreement and to oppose the other wing. It is very important to remember all these. In the recent meeting in Addis Ababa, new steps were taken to coordinate the activities of the two wings especially in the military front. This is a very positive step. The enemy talks so much about internal divisions in the Patriotic Front. However, the enemy avoids talking about the bloody rivalries between different puppets, and these rivalries are well known. Yesterday, Chikerema [James Chikerema] was expelled and he was promoted to the category of vice-president. They don’t talk about this; they don’t talk about this. In England, none talks about the daily rivalries. Ian Smith acts as if he is a referee of those puppets. He is the referee in the midst of them. Like the French colonialists in Algeria and the Portuguese in Mozambique and like all colonialists and racists, Smith spreads the idea that once colonial domination is removed the people will fall into civil war. This is the same idea the English also have. You also know this. Tribes, as Marcelo Caetano once said; he also declared, “I am not going to commit the sacrilege of talking with terrorists. Those terrorists; the peoples of Mozambique are still living in a primitive state.” Primitive tribalism; this was in 1962. So, those who cause racist, colonial and aggressive wars, and those who foment tribalism and racism, and cause intrigues, they always desire to present themselves as sources of peace, stability, and unity. This is the main issue. That’s what we find in Zimbabwe, South Africa, and unfortunately the west listens to them. We see all western media supporting these ideas. It would be a big surprise for us if the west would stand on the right and just side. The west has always stood for the unjust and wrong side. In three years the Patriotic Front survived all the crises- listen to this very well. The Patriotic Front evolved and with the support of all the friends of Zimbabwe, it will continue to be a responsible movement. And you asked me about the illegal aggression of the Ian Smith government against the Mozambican people.

Ian Christie: I would like you to comment on the strategic changes of the regime.

Samora Machel: Let’s start by parts; the illegal regime of Ian Smith started attacking Mozambique and it has declared its attacks many times, but the west has not revealed [and published] this and they won’t mention it. But, we’ll repeat and say that it didn’t start only now; they started attacking us in 1975. They started attacking the Mozambican people beginning in 1975. The first attacks of Smith troops took place in the Niassa Province. So, it is wrong to make a connection between the Smith attacks with the closure of the border [between Mozambique and Zimbabwe], and our support for the just struggle of the people of Zimbabwe. As the struggle for the liberation of Zimbabwe grows, the desperate regime increases its aggressiveness. This year, the regime attacked Angola, a country without any border with Zimbabwe.

During these attacks, they massacred hundreds of people. Let’s remember for their savagery the massacres of Inhazónia and Chimoio. With the increased strength of our defensive forces, it has become impossible for the enemy to launch those kinds of operations. Today, the enemy resorts to air bombardments and timely selected operations of banditry. Operations of banditry; the organization of the population and the increased mobility of our troops are limiting the room for operations of groups of bandits. The fourth and fifth questions have to do with the policy of clemency. These questions are of great interest to me.

Allen Isaacman: Until March of this year, Mozambique was the only African country with a death sentence. Did this new law come up as a direct result of the practices of the illegal regime of Ian Smith?

Samora Machel: Very well, I am very happy with your question. I had a meeting with the journalist Loforte. I asked the question “clemency towards whom?” When we talk about clemency, I ask the question “clemency towards whom?” Perhaps, one needs to translate this: “clemency towards whom?”

Samora Machel: My question is “clemency towards whom?” When did we have the policy of clemency? We were at war against Portuguese colonialism. It was clemency for Portuguese soldiers. It was clemency for Portuguese prisoners of war. Where are the prisoners of war? I’m not at war right now. Don’t confuse this issue; this is a critical issue; clemency towards whom? I don’t know if you understand this very well. Clemency towards whom? We said that the policy of clemency is an achievement of our people’s struggle. Listen to this very well. It is also an achievement of humanity. The purpose of this policy is to provide a decent and humane treatment of prisoners of war. Are these prisoners of war? So, clemency towards whom? Let’s not confuse a law that ensures the safety of people against crimes and the people’s state. Don’t confuse this with war. The reactionaries’ forces in our midst wanted us to execute the captured Portuguese prisoners. We resolutely opposed this. The Second FRELIMO Congress clearly decided in favor of the policy of clemency. We never made the confusion between the Portuguese people and colonialism. Hence, when we captured the Portuguese troops or when they surrendered themselves, we gave them a humane treatment. It’s a glory and honor for our army that there was never a single prisoner of war who was killed by us or who died during his captivity. Never; many were captured injured. Our soldiers gave their blood to save their lives. At the end of the war, we provided a complete list of prisoners of war, including those who were unilaterally released by us, and returned hundreds of them. Unfortunately, the opposing army was unable to do the same thing or even to return a single prisoner. We picked up children in the war zones. We picked up women in war fronts. We picked up civilians and we sent all of them to Portugal. We paid all of them to go to Portugal. This is well known. Now, you say that “until such and such year, there was clemency…” We didn’t lose the policy of clemency. But, now, clemency towards whom? The law on crimes against the security of people and the people’s state doesn’t foresee any sentence for a war prisoner. Take note of this. It doesn’t foresee any penalty against a war prisoner. This means that captured soldiers of an army or soldiers who surrender are covered by that law only in extreme cases, and it doesn’t have anything to do with prisoners of war and consequently with the policy of clemency that we maintain. This law condemns war crimes, crimes against humanity, crimes against international peace, mercenary crimes, piracy, kidnapping, espionage, sabotage, terrorism, high treason, and other serious hate crimes. The death penalty is only applied to many of these crimes in cases where there is the death of the victim or when the victim is permanently incapacitated or impaired. If we analyze case by case the situation of those people who have been sentenced and executed, you’ll see that the kind of crimes they committed were extremely barbarous and these crimes included mercenary crimes, war crimes or crimes against humanity. It’s very shocking that countries that refuse to take any actions or measures to prevent their territories from being used to recruit and arm mercenaries and as transit places for mercenaries don’t do anything to prevent their citizens from being freely involved in assassinations in our countries, and dare to condemn elementary measures of repression against these kinds of crimes. Our state and revolution have the right and duty of self- defense and self-protection.

Allen Isaacman: Recently, the People’s Republic of Mozambique condemned the People’s Republic of China for attacking Vietnam. Does this represent a FRELIMO shift of policy in relation to the Sino-Soviet division in the international communist movement?

Samora Machel: since you’re talking about the world, we want to answer your questions. It’s not you who are interested in this issue; there are other people who are interested in this issue. They think that there are some changes going on in Mozambique.The FRELIMO Party defended and still defends the unity of the communist movement and the international working class movement. We will always act in favor of this unity. In different situations, we may have disagreements with friendly parties and also opposing views. As a matter of principle, we refrain from having public debates about these disagreements and contradictions although in private we don’t hesitate to present our viewpoints when we are asked to do so. We have as a principle to systematically distinguish the mistakes of our friends, no matter how serious they are, from the actions of our enemies. This distinction allows us to give a different treatment to different situations. No matter how damaging the mistakes of our friends are, we never forget their support in difficult moments and the contribution they provided to the revolutionary movement in other circumstances and moments. Do you understand this? The principle of respecting the borders and the inviolability of the national territory, the peaceful resolution of conflicts between states and of not resorting to military force in international relations; these are basic and elementary principles that safeguard international peace and security; these principles should be safeguarded and protected by all states. The People’s Republic of China is a friendly country, but by invading Vietnam, it violated these basic principles. If we had remained quiet, it would have meant that we tacitly accepted a serious violation of rules that regulate international relations. The violation hurt us so much because it was a fellow socialist country attacking another one. Our friendship with the People’s Republic of China remains unchanged and the same can be said about the high appreciation that we still have for the support that they gave us in our difficult times and for the historical contribution of the Chinese revolution to the development of the revolutionary process in the world. We support the friendly help provided by the Socialist Republic of Vietnam to Kampuchea. The same way, we support the friendly help of the United Republic of Tanzania to Uganda. Vietnam like Tanzania has been attacked several times by despotic and expansionist regimes, and in their legitimate defense they had the right to neutralize the aggressors. In the context of international solidarity, they supported insurrections against despotic regimes. We are always careful to know whom the guns should be turned against. Are they turned against the people or tyranny? Today, in Southwest Asia, Vietnam, Laos, and Kampuchea are building strong, supportive, and friendly relations which constitute a fundamental factor for the triumph of the socialist cause in the region, and this allows the consolidation of international and regional peace and security. Between Tanzania and Uganda there is an environment of peace and cooperation, which will contribute to the stability and progress of East Africa and strengthening the liberation struggle of southern Africa. We are encouraged by the beginning of negotiations between China and Vietnam, and we strongly wish that these negotiations will be successful so that they can restore the traditional and revolutionary friendship between the peoples and states of the region and rebuild the anti-imperialist front. This is our position.

Allen Isaacman: how do you characterize the relations between Mozambique and the United States, and in your opinion, do you think that President Carter’s policy towards Southern Africa is different from Ford’s and Nixon’s? And what can the United States do to improve its relations with Mozambique?

Samora Machel: I’m going to answer your question and I’ll highlight some issues. We say that the people of the United States of America condemned Portuguese colonialism and they were opposed to the American administrations’ support for the colonial wars of aggression. They were also involved in providing material and humanitarian support for our struggle. The Nixon administration against the will of the American people was sadly renowned for supporting the Portuguese fascist government. The Ford administration was forced to accept the political and military defeat of Portuguese colonialism in Africa, and it established diplomatic relations with the People’s Republic of Mozambique. President Carter and his administration are striving to develop a new American policy towards Africa, which can lead the United States to separate itself from unjust causes of colonialism, racism, and apartheid. These intentions are positive, however, the realities are far from the expressed goodwill. We have been observing shaky and hesitant positions with regards to Zimbabwe and Namibia. The disengagement from the Anglo- American plan towards Zimbabwe, and the disengagement of the five western powers from Namibia show the lack of coherence and capacity to implement a policy of good intentions. These are difficulties that go beyond the individual goodwill of leaders of the [American political] system. These are contradictions and inabilities inherent in the regime. There is a wall and when President Carter came to power, he found this wall that he cannot destroy. The will and system in place. So, the question is how to reconcile the goodwill and the existing system. However, it is true that there is a difference; the Nixon administration was renowned for its imperialistic aggressiveness; aggressiveness in many places; violence: in Vietnam and several places. Aggressiveness and violence. Carter has goodwill, but we have to wait a little longer. We have to wait a little longer. Bilateral relations are developing normally, and the improvement of these relations depends exclusively on the United States. We cannot say “United States do this.” We established relations with the United States of America, putting a sponge [an eraser” on the past]; we established diplomatic relations with the United States and we put a sponge [on the past]; but, the United States decided to put Mozambique on a black list, a country that they have diplomatic relations with. Now, we don’t know what to say to the United States. That’s why we say everything depends exclusively on the United States. However, with the business community, there are relations of mutual benefits. This is my answer with regards to the United States. They decided to place Mozambique on a black list, and they will decide when they will remove Mozambique from that list.

Someone in the audience: perhaps, they have decided…

Samora Machel: they will decide when they will remove Mozambique from the black list. What’s the matter? We are already tired [of talking].