Interview with Samora Machel http://www.aluka.org/action/showMetadata?doi=10.5555/AL.SFF.DOCUMENT.isaacman0001 Use of the Aluka digital library is subject to Aluka’s Terms and Conditions, available at http://www.aluka.org/page/about/termsConditions.jsp. By using Aluka, you agree that you have read and will abide by the Terms and Conditions. Among other things, the Terms and Conditions provide that the content in the Aluka digital library is only for personal, non-commercial use by authorized users of Aluka in connection with research, scholarship, and education. The content in the Aluka digital library is subject to copyright, with the exception of certain governmental works and very old materials that may be in the public domain under applicable law. Permission must be sought from Aluka and/or the applicable copyright holder in connection with any duplication or distribution of these materials where required by applicable law. Aluka is a not-for-profit initiative dedicated to creating and preserving a digital archive of materials about and from the developing world. For more information about Aluka, please see http://www.aluka.org Interview with Samora Machel Author/Creator Isaacman, Allen (Interviewer); Christie, Iain (Interviewer); Machel, Samora (Interviewee) Contributor Filipe, Eléusio dos P.V. (Translator), Samora Machel Documentation Center, Mozambique Date 1979-05 Resource type Interviews Language English Subject Coverage (spatial) Mozambique, Zimbabwe Coverage (temporal) 1975-1979 Rights By kind permission of Frances Christie and Graça Machel. Description Transcription of interview with Samora Machel, conducted by Allen Isaacman and Iain Christie, Maputo, May 1979 http://www.aluka.org/action/showMetadata?doi=10.5555/AL.SFF.DOCUMENT.isaacman0001 http://www.aluka.org Transcriptions of Interviews with Samora Machel- Tapes 1-4 Conducted by Allen Isaacman and Iain Christie, Maputo, May 1979 Translated from the Portuguese by Eléusio dos P.V. Filipe, Doctoral Candidate in Spanish & Portuguese, University of Minnesota Reviewed by Jim Johnson, Interdisciplinary Center for the Study of Global Change, U of MN Iain Christie: During the Transition Government period, you, comrade President, said that one of the objectives of FRELIMO was to eliminate the base of poverty in Mozambique before the end of this decade; of course, there is still poverty. But, can you list the main successes in the struggle against poverty? Samora Machel: Did you end poverty in England? Did you end poverty in the United Kingdom? Iain Christie: Not yet, not yet. Samora Machel: Did you end poverty in the United States? Allen Isaacman: There is still poverty in the United States… Samora Machel: Did you end poverty in the United States? Poverty is still the biggest problem in the United States. Poverty is still a big problem in the United States … The United Kingdom still has a big problem with poverty. Poverty is still a big problem in the German Federal [Republic]. Perhaps; perhaps, if we identify the main cause of poverty in some of these countries; in these countries, poverty is a failure of the capitalist countries. In the capitalist system, poverty is a necessary evil, and this is a very critical point. Poverty is regarded as a necessary evil in the capitalist countries. Poverty is a necessary evil in the capitalist system. The fundamental aspect of the capitalist system is to have poverty; the capitalist system engenders and structures poverty. To organize poverty is one of the key elements of the capitalist system. Our struggle is to eliminate root causes of poverty. Our first fight is to eliminate the root causes of poverty. We first want to destroy the root causes of poverty so that we can fight against poverty. That’s why we say that the critical element in our struggle against poverty in our country was the end of Portuguese colonialism, and this is a key point: the elimination of Portuguese colonialism was the key aspect in our struggle against poverty because it was the main cause of poverty. We found illiteracy; we found obscurantism; we found superstition; we found illnesses; we found misery in Portuguese colonialism; in sum, we found poverty. This means that the productive forces were not free; there wasn’t initiative; there wasn’t independence; there was not freedom. So, it was necessary to destroy this element, which was the Portuguese colonialism. This was the first thing to do. So, the steps that we are taking now, they are designed to transform our country into a prosperous and a developed country. However, we have given a finishing stroke to the Portuguese colonialism. Later on, we will find the answer to this question of poverty; we will address in detail this question of poverty, which you raised. Let’s move on. Allen Isaacman: Agriculture was defined as the base for building a new Mozambican society. What are the main successes and failures of this process particularly with regards to the formation of cooperatives, communal villages, and state farms, and how the family sector is part of this process? Samora Machel: Ah, did you ever visit the country, Isaacman? Did you visit Mozambique? What are the regions of the country that you visited? Allen Isaacman: I visited Gaza, Nampula, Cabo Delgado, and Tete. Samora Machel: Gaza Allen Isaacman: Nampula Samora Machel: Nampula Allen Isaacman: Cabo Delgado Samora Machel: Cabo Delgado Allen Isaacman: Tete Samora Machel: Tete... are you informed about Ian Smith? Did you visit Mozambique... did you visit the provinces … Iain Christie: I visited some areas of Mozambique. I only visited Gaza. Samora Machel: a little bit of Gaza Iain Christie: Chimoio Samora Machel: Chimoio, in Manica… did you establish contacts with some structures? With state, political, and party structures? Did you establish these contacts? Allen Isaacman: Yes, we did. We talked with the structures. Samora Machel: For example, did you visit communal villages? Did you visit communal villages in Gaza and Nampula? Did you visit some of them? Allen Isaacman: Yes, we visited some of them Samora Machel: I am also sure that you visited some agrarian cooperatives despite the fact that they are in their early stages of development. In order to answer your question it is important to know if you friends are aware of the Mozambican reality. When people come down to Maputo; when people arrive in Maputo, they may have the impression that nothing is being done in this country. For example, from the Polana Hotel; from the Cardoso Hotel; from the supermarket that doesn’t have basic goods compared to the rest of Maputo where some of these goods do not constitute basic goods in some rural areas. They vary from place to place. Therefore, the slogan of the party to establish communal villages and cooperatives was well received by the population and it also generated very broad popular support and enthusiasm. This slogan steered a broad popular support and movement from the people, and this is how we can see the development of agriculture. The establishment of a collective form of production, and the benefits resulting from it, and the elimination of the base of exploitation has encouraged their rapid development. Today, there are more than one thousand communal villages with more than one million people. It is still not enough for a country with 12 million people, but this is an important step to revitalize [agriculture]. There are more than five hundred agrarian cooperatives with more than thirty thousand members. This is very important considering that we started from nothing. The visible and palpable material benefits of the communal villages and cooperatives have increased the political and ideological consciousness of the peasantry. It is a collective consciousness that emerged from collective work. The successes of the communal villages and the cooperatives have encouraged many individual peasants to get together to work collectively; this is a very important step. We have as an example the cultivation of cotton which was a forced crop during the colonial period and had negatively marked many peasants. Cotton profoundly marked the experiences of peasants in those regions where it was grown. We can now see peasants coming together to create cooperatives where they can cultivate cotton. This [change of attitudes] towards the cultivation of cotton was a result of a profound political mobilization and consciousness--why do we cultivate cotton, and for whom are we growing cotton? Who gets the benefits from cultivating cotton? Talking about cotton production in the past was the same as organizing and bringing hunger and misery to the peasants. Collective production leads to the gradual realization of other collective activities, such as solving the problems of food supply, and this is the reason why consumer cooperatives are created to organize the distribution of food and marketing the food surpluses produced by peasants. Peasants also organize themselves to collectively build houses, which they never had before. To collectively build a house! A new style [of life]! It’s a new way of looking at life--it’s a new conception of life! That’s why I was asking if you had visited any provinces and rural areas, I mean rural areas outside Maputo. This is how health, education, and commercialization problems are gradually being addressed and solved. For us communal villages are centers of collective production; they are centers of political, social, and cultural life. Communal villages are centers that will allow the industrialization, urbanization, and socialization of rural areas. To sum up, communal villages are essentially centers of organized and collective life. It is important to note this: centers of collective life. Repeat this; it’s necessary to highlight this: collective life. People in Maputo build a big city, but they don’t have a collective life.