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This past month has been a time of testing know, for the sake of peace and security and for our country. And the American people the freedom of the Iraqi people that he’s got have responded with resolve and strength the orders to proceed. I asked God’s blessing and optimism. Whatever challenges may on him and the troops. He saluted. I saluted come, we can be confident our Nation is back and left the room. strong; our purpose is firm; and our cause It was a—it was an emotional moment for is just. me because I had obviously made up my Thank you for coming. May God bless you, mind that if we needed to, we would use and may God bless America. troops to get rid of weapons of mass destruc- tion to free the Iraqi people. But the actual NOTE: The President spoke at 2:13 p.m. In his remarks, he referred to former President Saddam moment of making that decision was a heavy Hussein of Iraq; Lt. Col. Damon T. Walsh, USA, moment. I then went outside and walked Army plant commander, and Gary King, plant around the grounds, just to get a little air manager, Lima Army Tank Plant; Maj. Gen. N. and collect my thoughts. Ross Thompson III, USA, commander, U.S. Army And I thought I was pretty well through Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command; Jeff with the day until 3:40 that afternoon, when Monroe, president, UAW local 2075; Gov. Bob Taft of Ohio; Mayor David J. Berger of Lima; I got a call from Secretary Rumsfeld that Gen. Tommy R. Franks, USA, combatant com- said, ‘‘Mr. President, the plans have mander, U.S. Central Command; and Lt. Gen. Jay changed.’’ He said, ‘‘I would like to change Garner, USA (Ret.), Director, Office of Recon- the plans. I need your permission to change struction and Humanitarian Assistance for Post- the plans. Can I come over?’’ He didn’t say war Iraq, Department of Defense. the plans had changed, but I knew what he’d told me on the phone, it would mean the Interview With Tom Brokaw of NBC plans would have changed. And that is, we had a shot at Saddam Hussein, they thought. News So I assembled the national security team April 24, 2003 of the Vice President, Colin Powell, Rums- Preemptive Strike Against Saddam feld, Myers, CIA Tenet, Condi Rice, Andy Hussein Card, and some other CIA agents there— some guys I hadn’t seen before came in the Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, there’s no tougher decision any President makes than Oval. And the reason why they were there to commit the Nation to war. Let’s talk about is they had a source on the ground that was that first night, when you surprised us all by convinced that not only would Saddam Hus- launching the preemptive strike against the sein be in the complex, but Uday and Qusay, residence of Saddam Hussein. his two sons, would be there as well. And The President. Well, they started in the they explained why this was the case. And Situation Room, and we had Tommy Franks basically they were asking permission from on the screen with a commander—I think me to launch an airstrike. out of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait City and out I was hesitant at first, to be frank with you, of—and a CENTCOM commander out of because I was worried that the first pictures Tampa Bay, along with their British and Aus- coming out of Iraq would be a wounded tralian counterparts. grandchild of Saddam Hussein—but Saddam And then we had the national security Hussein, who was not there at the time we team aligned on the table there, and I went started making the decision, would never around to each of the commanders and said, show up—that the first images of the Amer- ‘‘Are you happy with the strategy? Do you ican attack would be death to young children. have what it takes to win the war?’’ They And this is an interesting moment, because all answered affirmatively. as time went on during the day, that evening, I then gave the instructions to Secretary the intelligence got richer and richer. In of Defense Rumsfeld that Operation Iraqi other words, the guy on the ground was call- Freedom would commence at a time of ing in to the CENTCOM headquarters, who Tommy Franks’ choosing, told Tommy, you was immediately calling in to the White Administration of George W. Bush, 2003 / Apr. 24 473

House—more and more information. For ex- country. And then Tommy said he was going ample, he discovered that there was a bunker to move the ground force movement up early 100 feet away from one of the houses, a to secure oilfields and to move as quickly as bunker that had so much concrete and was possible into Iraq, which really says that he likely to house Saddam when he arrived and had the ability and the authority and the flexi- his kids, his boys. bility necessary to change a war plan to meet And as the intelligence got richer, I got the needs on the ground. more confidence with the notion that Sad- Mr. Brokaw. That human intelligence dam would, in fact, be there. And at 7:15 that we had on the ground, did you hear back that evening, I gave the order for Tommy from him, I presume? to proceed with an attack on the farms, but The President. We did. changed—they had an ordnance package of Mr. Brokaw. And did he—— 30 cruise missiles. But because of the bunker, The President. He felt like we got Sad- they had to change the timing of the attack dam. so that the stealth bomber went in first, un- Mr. Brokaw. He did? loaded his ordnance, and then the TLAMs The President. He felt like that, yes. And or the cruise missiles would follow in behind, we’re trying, of course, to verify. And before which means they had to reprogram all these there’s any declaration, of course, there will missiles. And they didn’t have much time to be a lot of evidence. do it because the flight time of the missiles Mr. Brokaw. Did you see that famous tel- from their particular launch sites was about evision video of Saddam the next day, in the 2 hours. glasses, reading awkwardly from the notepad This other thing that bothered me during and so on? the decisionmaking was that the stealth The President. Well, yes. I was amused would go in unescorted. There would have by that, almost as amused by that as I was been no air suppression on enemy defenses his PR man—it was one of the classics— prior to him going in, in order to keep the probably helping NBC Saturday Night Live element of surprise alive. So the day out mightily, but through his—it was just un- changed, and it was a dramatic several hours believable what he was saying. because we really changed the battle plan. But you know, the people that wonder if Mr. Brokaw. Did you watch that on tele- Saddam Hussein is dead or not, there’s some vision, when the bombs began to land? evidence that says that he—suggests he The President. Yes, I did. I did. Actually, might be. We would never make that dec- they began to hit, and then I went in and laration until we were more certain. But the shortly thereafter addressed the Nation—so person that helped direct the attacks believes I was getting makeup and talking about the— that Saddam, at the very minimum, was se- you know, figuring out the words in the verely wounded. speech. I did. And it was about 9:30 p.m., Mr. Brokaw. That night? as I recall, and then I spoke to the country The President. That night, yes. And it ex- about 10:15 p.m. plains—again, there will be a lot of specula- But what was interesting, Tom—I don’t tion until the truth is known, but it explains think many people know this—is that the why, for example, one reason why dams game plan was to move Special Ops forces weren’t blown up or oilfields weren’t de- early, at noon that day. And we would have stroyed, even though we found them to be explained to the country, as kind of creating wired with—potentially to be blown up. the conditions for the battlefield, so that when our troops moved significantly, their Shock and Awe/Iraqi Resistance conditions would be ripe for success. Mr. Brokaw. Now, the air campaign is un- At Friday, at noon, I was going to address derway, and troops are moving across the the Nation about the air campaign, and the border—— ground campaign would follow shortly there- The President. That would be a day and after. Turns out that because we conducted a half later. the air raid, I had to speak that night to the Mr. Brokaw. A day and a half later. 474 Apr. 24 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2003

The President. But troops were moving U.S. Prisoners of War across the border earlier. Mr. Brokaw. Let me ask you about that Mr. Brokaw. ‘‘Shock and awe’’ was the day that the prisoners were captured. Every- phrase that was heard so much before it all thing played out on television. There’s been began. It didn’t have exactly the effect I think probably no more televised event in the his- that a lot of people expected, because resist- tory of mankind. Suddenly you look on the ance down south was—from the militia, at screen, and from Iraqi television there are least—a little tougher than a lot of people five American prisoners of war, including a anticipated. woman who was a cook, Shoshana Johnson. The President. Yes, I think it’s true. I The President. Well, I believe that was think that’s an accurate look back. ‘‘Shock a Sunday. And it was a tough day. It was and awe’’ said to many people that all we’ve a tough day for America. It was a tough day got to do is unleash some might and people for the Commander in Chief, who committed will crumble. It turns out the fighters were these young soldiers into battle in the first a lot fiercer than we thought. Because, for place, which made their release even more example, we didn’t come north from Turkey, joyous. But war is—it’s tough. Saddam Hussein was able to move a lot of Mr. Brokaw. Did you make some calls? special Republican Guard units and fighters The President. No, I didn’t. I’ve written from north to south. So the resistance for a lot of letters, but I didn’t call any parents our troops moving south and north was sig- then. I prayed for them, but I didn’t call. nificant resistance. On the other hand, our Mr. Brokaw. Did you talk to Laura about troops handled it—we handled that resist- it? ance quite well. The President. I did. I talked to Laura a lot during this period of time. She’s been President’s National Security Team a steady source of strength and inspiration Mr. Brokaw. Did that give you a pause and love. And you know, there’s—any time for a while? there’s war and a lot of action, a lot of move- The President. Well, first of all, I had con- ment of troops and equipment, people are— fidence in the plan, because I’ve got con- there’s going to be death. And it’s the hardest fidence in my national security team. Re- aspect of this job, frankly, is to know that member, my advisers are people such as those lives were lost because of orders I gave. Dick Cheney, who had been through the war On the other hand, I firmly believe, and before as the Secretary of Defense; Colin history will prove, that decisions that I made Powell, who’s not only an Army general but and the actions that our country took will also had been through a war before; Don make the world more peaceful, will help se- Rumsfeld, who’s a very successful man in the cure the United States, and as importantly, private sector but also has got great judgment give the Iraqi people freedom, let them be when it comes to the military; Tommy free, free from the clutches of one of the Franks—I really trust Tommy; we speak the most barbaric regimes in the history of man- same language; after all, Tommy went to kind. Midland Lee High School, graduated in 1963, one year ahead of Laura—Condi, Rescue of Jessica Lynch and—I mean, I get good, solid advice from Mr. Brokaw. The flip side of all that was people who analyzed this war plan, analyzed the rescue of Jessica Lynch. the strategy, looked at it in depth, had looked The President. It was. at it for quite a bit of time and convinced Mr. Brokaw. Did you get advance notice me that it would lead to victory. that that operation was going down? So I’ve never doubted the plan. Obviously, The President. I did. I did. Secretary I was concerned when we lost life, or con- Rumsfeld told me that—not to get my hopes cerned that day when some of our prisoners, up, but there was going to be a very sensitive the people were captured. But I had con- operation into a hospital where he thought fidence in the plan because I had confidence that there would be an American POW. And in the team. that’s all he said. He was very circumspect, Administration of George W. Bush, 2003 / Apr. 24 475 as he should be, to a lot of people, because to them but make them a part of it? Would he didn’t want any information to get out that that help with the credibility, do you think? might have jeopardized the operation. But The President. I think there’s going to be he gave me a heads-up. And then when we skepticism until people find out there was, heard that she had been rescued, it was a in fact, a weapons of mass destruction pro- joyous moment. gram. One thing there can’t be skepticism about is the fact that this guy was torturous Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction and brutal on the Iraqi people. I mean, he brutalized them; he tortured them; he de- Mr. Brokaw. Let me ask you about some stroyed them; he cut out their tongues when of the larger policy questions. Before we they dissented. And now the people are be- went to war against Iraq, one of the reasons ginning to see what freedom means within that you justified this war was that he posed Iraq. Look at the Shi’a marches or the Shi’a a real threat to the United States. If he pilgrimages that are taking place. couldn’t defend his own country—and we The world will see that the United States have not yet been able to find the weapons is interested in peace, is interested in secu- of mass destruction, which were not even rity, and interested in freedom. launched in defense of Iraq—was that threat Mr. Brokaw. But it is important to find overstated? the weapons of mass destruction, or the evi- The President. No, not at all. As a matter dence that he had a massive program under- of fact, I think time and investigation will way, isn’t it? prove a couple of points: One, that he did The President. Yes. I think we will. I’m have terrorist connections; and secondly, that pretty confident we will. he had a weapons of mass destruction pro- gram. We know he had a weapons of mass Postwar Iraq/New Iraqi Regime destruction program. We now know he’s not Mr. Brokaw. Your old family friend Brent going to use them. So we’ve accomplished Scowcroft, who had some differences with one objective, and that is that Saddam Hus- the policies here, says one of the things that sein will not hurt the United States or friends he’s worried about is that there’s no tradition or our allies with weapons of mass destruc- of democracy there, that people will just tion. seize power wherever they can. It seems to Secondly, we are learning more as we in- a lot of people that that is playing out in the terrogate or have discussions with Iraqi sci- south, especially where the Shi’a are saying, entists and people within the Iraqi structure, ‘‘Look, we’re going to run things here. We’d that perhaps he destroyed some, perhaps he like to have an Islamic government.’’ Isn’t dispersed some. We also know there are hun- that a serious concern? dreds and hundreds of sites available for hid- The President. Well, first of all, we just ing the weapons, which he did effectively for started. The country isn’t secure yet. I mean, 10 years from the—over 10 years from the the first things that we’re worried about is United Nations, and that we’ve only looked making sure that the militia units of the old at about 90 of those sites so far—I mean, Fedayeen Saddam aren’t out killing people. literally hundreds of sites. So our troops are working with coalition And so we will find them. It’s going to take forces to make the country more secure. time to find them. And the best way to find Secondly, we’re worried about making them is to continue to collect information sure there are—you know, there’s the pres- from the humans, the Iraqis who were in- ence of a police force in these different cities volved with hiding them. to maintain order. We are just beginning to Mr. Brokaw. As you know, there’s still a move our teams in place to help the Iraqi lot of skepticism around the world about bureaucracies get up and running. American motives in Iraq. I was pleased to see that the Doctors With- The President. Right. out Borders organization said that they went Mr. Brokaw. Why not fold in some of the into Iraq and found no grave humanitarian U.N. inspectors to this effort, not turn it over crisis. In other words, the food is getting to 476 Apr. 24 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2003 the people; medicines are getting to the peo- way, helping find treasure, restore treasure, ple. They did say there is a shortage of per- and we’ll provide all the expertise and help sonnel, professionally—not a shortage of they need to get that museum up and run- medicine but a shortage of professionals nec- ning again. essary to deliver the aid, and we’ll help the But I wasn’t surprised. It was vengeance, Iraqi people address that problem. because it’s like uncorking a bottle of frustra- My point to you is that we have an orderly tion. These are people whose relatives were process to bring stability and food and health beaten, tortured, shocked, killed because to the Iraqi people so life can begin to return they spoke out, because they disagreed with to normal. And then I’m confident that a gov- Saddam Hussein. And history is going to ernment will emerge. I dismiss the critics show how brutal this man and his sons and who say that democracy can’t flourish in Iraq. his regime really, really was. And therefore, It may not look like America. You know, it did not surprise me when people took Thomas Jefferson may not emerge. But nev- vengeance on police stations or took, you ertheless, I do believe there can be a rep- know, went out into Government buildings resentative government and all factions can and destroyed them. be represented. I’m also pleased by the fact that that level Mr. Brokaw. But if it becomes an Islamic of—those riots or whatever you want to call government with a 60 percent Shiite major- them, released some steam, and now life is ity, it could very well become that—would returning to normal. Things have settled that be acceptable to you? down inside the country. The President. What I would like to see Mr. Brokaw. There’s still a lot of nation- is a government where church and state are alism, though. I mean, it’s a very strong strain separated. And I believe there’s enough peo- there, and in fact, some people are taking ple within Iraq that would like that kind of— control of their neighborhoods or whole sec- there may be a nationalist government, a gov- tors of Baghdad—— ernment that really honors the Iraqi history The President. Yes, like the guy, the self- and the Iraqi traditions and Iraq, itself. But proclaimed mayor. it must be a government that is going to, you Mr. Brokaw. Right. know, represents all the people, and I believe The President. This is all—a reasonable that can happen. government will evolve. We just started. It wasn’t but 2 weeks ago yesterday that the Looting by Iraqi Citizens statue fell down. There have been 20-plus Mr. Brokaw. Were you surprised by the years of tyranny. And it’s hard to believe that degree of looting that occurred almost in- in 20 days democracy will emerge. But the stantly? point we’re making is, is that the foundation The President. No, I wasn’t surprised at for democracy is now being laid. And by the all. way, there’s nothing wrong with nationalism Mr. Brokaw. You were not? Why? within Iraq. People say the United States The President. I mean, these were people should leave, and we want to leave, as soon that hated the regime under which they as we’ve accomplished our mission. lived. Mr. Brokaw. But they went after hospitals Timing of U.S. Withdrawal and museums and—— Mr. Brokaw. How long will that take? The President. I don’t like that part. And The President. Somebody asked me the that was the—you know, the hospitals and other day, how long is it going to take to museum were the absolute worst part. The get rid of Saddam Hussein’s regime? My an- good news is, is that the hospitals are now swer is, as long as necessary. up and running. They’ve got enough medical Mr. Brokaw. But it may take as long as supplies to take care of the people that need 2 years—— help. That museum was a terrible incident. The President. It could. It could, or less. I couldn’t agree more with people who say Who knows? But the point I’m making is, we’re sorry that happened. We are, by the is that we are there to promote security, to Administration of George W. Bush, 2003 / Apr. 24 477 make sure life returns back to normal, and the end as we know it, it should be.’’ And to help the Iraqi people establish a govern- Bill Kristol has said, ‘‘The U.N. I used to ment, because we believe that democracy think was just useless, now I think is harm- can work within Iraq. And nationalism, by ful.’’ the way, you know, means it’s more likely The President. Well, I would hope that that a government will evolve that is focused the U.N. would be useful. I would hope that on Iraq, its traditions, and its history, as op- the U.N. would be an effective body at help- posed to focusing on a particular religion. ing deal with the new threats of the 21st cen- tury, dealing with terror and terrorist states Iran/Syria and proliferation of weapons. Mr. Brokaw. Is Iran trying to take root And I can understand why some are frus- in southern Iraq, in your judgment? trated with the United Nations, because the The President. Well, you know, you hear United Nations looked like it was not willing a lot of reports about the vacuums being to join in the cause of freedom. And it was filled by Iranian agents. We certainly hope frustrating to Americans that it looked like that Iraq—Iran will allow Iraq to develop the United Nations might hold up U.S. for- into a stable and peaceful society. We have eign policy that was being conducted in the sent the word to the Iranians that that’s what name of peace and security. we expect. I talk to Tony Blair and Jose Maria On the other hand, I was the person that Aznar on a regular basis—talked to them yes- went to the United Nations in the first place. terday—and this subject came up. And both It was my decision to go give the speech on of them have got contacts with the Iranian September 12, 2002, that called the United Government, and they will send the same Nations to account. The United Nations will message, similar to what we did to Syria, that have a useful role in the reconstruction of we expect there to be cooperation and—— Iraq, for example, because a lot of nations Mr. Brokaw. And if there is not, is Iran won’t be able give reconstruction money next? without a U.N. conduit. The President. No, we just expect them And there is a role in this case for the to cooperate, and we will work with the world United Nations. I hope as threats emerge, to encourage them to cooperate. We have the United Nations will be more responsive no military plans. Just like I said about Syria. to those threats. I mean, listen, the world, a lot of the—frank- ly, the left wing critics of our policy have said, Visit by Australian Prime Minister John ‘‘You know, these people are so militaristic, Howard they’re getting ready to invade Syria.’’ That Mr. Brokaw. Are you going to invite was the line of the day. We made it clear French President Chirac to the ranch in to the Syrians we expect them to cooperate. Crawford? Mr. Brokaw. And are they responding? The President. Well, my first guest will The President. Yes, I think they are. be John Howard—well, first guest from this They’re doing a better job. The borders look moment forward will be John Howard, and like they’re tighter. As we find people that he’s coming—— have escaped into Syria, we’re giving the Syr- Mr. Brokaw. The Prime Minister of Aus- ian Government the names of the people, tralia. and they appear to want to be helpful. The President. The Prime Minister of Australia, he’s a great friend and a wonderful United Nations ally, will be coming a week from Friday. Mr. Brokaw. Let me ask you about the future of some other relationships that we French President Jacques Chirac/NATO have, with the United Nations, for example. Mr. Brokaw. Well, what about President There are two people who admire you very Chirac, though? much and are powerful pundits in Wash- The President. You really—you’re really ington. George Will and Bill Kristol have said trying to get me to comment. I doubt he’ll of the U.N., George Will saying, ‘‘If it’s not be coming to the ranch any time soon. On 478 Apr. 24 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2003 the other hand, you know, there are some There are other parts of the Bush doctrine, strains in the relationship, obviously, because if you want to call it that, that are equally of—it appeared to some in our administra- important. One, the AIDS initiative in Africa tion and our country that the French position is an incredibly important initiative, and I in- was anti-American. And my concern about tend to call upon Europe, particularly the the French position is it would weaken—the wealthier nations in Europe, to join us in pro- position they took could weaken the NATO viding the medicines, the anti-retroviral Alliance. NATO is a very important alliance. drugs, and the strategies necessary to start It’s something that we’ve not only worked saving lives, more lives on the continent of to modernize—I’ve worked to expand Africa. NATO, and it’s very important that Europe There’s a lot of things where we can work not become fractured to the point where the together, is my point, to overcome any dif- United States won’t have relations with a ferences that might have existed on the Iraq united Europe whole, free, and at peace. policy. And hopefully, the past tensions will sub- side, and the French won’t be using their Arab-U.S. Relations position within Europe to create alliances Mr. Brokaw. Before the war began, we against the United States or Britain or Spain were told by any number of people in your or any of the new countries that are the new administration that a lot of the leaders of the democracies in Europe. Middle East were privately saying, ‘‘We hope that you get rid of Saddam Hussein.’’ But Bush Doctrine once the war was over, they did not go public Mr. Brokaw. We’ve talked about this be- with praise for the United States—Saudi Ara- fore. Now that the war in Iraq is effectively bia, Egypt, Jordan, our best friends in that over, have you thought about a Bush doctrine region. While on the Arab street, there con- that is a comprehensive structure of some tinued to be very strong criticism to what we kind, on a global basis, for dealing with weap- were doing. ons of mass destruction and the need, even, The President. Yes, I can understand that. of preemptive strikes against rogue nations? I mean, these guys—first of all, the thing that The President. Well, the Bush doctrine was important with those countries is they is actually being defined by action, as op- provided us help when we asked for help. posed to by words. Although, I think if you We needed basing help in certain countries, compile a lot of the speeches I’ve given, you and they provided it. That was one of the could come up with the Bush doctrine. reasons why were successful against Saddam The way I view the post-Saddam Iraq op- Hussein. We asked, and they delivered. portunities are these: one, that we can deal Part of the frustrations that exist in the more effectively with weapons of mass de- Middle East—and I recognize this—is the struction, that we made it clear that people fact that there is no movement toward peace who harbor weapons of mass destruction will with the Palestinians. Part of the frustration be dealt with. Hopefully, most of it can be in the Middle East is also the fact that some done diplomatically. And you’ll see us—see of these governments need to enact reforms, me as well as members of my administration and that’s why both reform and working on begin to push for new international protocols the Middle Eastern peace will be priorities that will make international organizations of mine. more effective at stopping the spread of weapons of mass destruction. Middle East Peace Process I also believe that reform in the Middle Mr. Brokaw. Is the Middle East peace East as well as Middle East peace is an initia- process going to accelerate greatly now that tive that we will continue to—that I will push Arafat has accepted a Prime Minister? And and push, particularly in the Middle East has Arafat been removed effectively from the peace process. I will work hard to achieve equation? the two-state solution. And we have a good The President. I think it will accelerate opportunity to do so. and, hopefully, greatly. I’m not so sure what Administration of George W. Bush, 2003 / Apr. 24 479 that exactly means, but it will certainly accel- was taking place inside one of Saddam’s most erate from where we are today. guarded facilities, was able to pick up a de- The selection of Abu Mazen as the Prime vice, call CENTCOM, and CENTCOM Minister is very positive, primarily because would call us in near real-time. Abu Mazen has stated publicly that he is The ability to communicate has changed against terror and will use whatever powers the nature of warfare. It allows for more he has to fight off the terrorist activities that interoperability, more ability for the Navy have really prevented peace from moving and the Air Force and the Special Ops and forward. the Army and the Marines to work side by In my June 24th speech I laid out—— side in a coordinated basis, which makes it Mr. Brokaw. Will you have him to the easier to fight a war with flexibility and speed White House without Arafat, for example? and precision. So the doctrine really has The President. I will one of these days, changed. yes. As well, it’s an amazing concept when you Mr. Brokaw. Without Arafat? think about real-time TV focusing on war. The President. Yes, absolutely. Listen, I And by the way, I express—Laura and I ex- always felt—first of all, I looked at the history press our deepest sympathies to David of Mr. Arafat. Now, I saw what he did to Bloom’s wife and his family. I knew him well President Clinton. There was no need to during the campaign. He was a great jour- spend capital, unless you had an interlocutor nalist and really a good fellow, loved his fam- who could deliver the Palestinian people to- ily a lot. But you know, to think that David ward peace. And I believe Abu Mazen is a was there—— man dedicated to peace, and I look forward Mr. Brokaw. Rocketing across the desert. to working with him for the two-state solu- The President. ——rocketing across the tion. My view is, is that the only way for there desert. It’s an amazing feeling. to be peace and for the survival of Israel and Mr. Brokaw. I don’t want you to give up for the hope of the Palestinian people is for sources and methods, but the guy who called two states living side by side in peace. And in the first time—still with us? I’ve laid out a plan to achieve that, a plan The President. Yes, he is. He is with us. that calls upon actions by the Israelis, by the Thank God. A brave soul. Palestinians, as well as by the Arab nations Mr. Brokaw. That’s great. surrounding that troubled part of the world. [At this point, the first part of the interview Military Speed and Flexibility/ concluded. After leaving Air Force One, the David Bloom interview resumed at 2:45 p.m. in Lima, OH.] Mr. Brokaw. There used to be an Amer- ican doctrine about when we go to war it’s Economic Stimulus Plan overwhelming force. Now it’s speed and Mr. Brokaw. Listen, now that the war in flexibility, based on Iraq, and instant commu- Iraq is over, the whole country is turning its nication, not only behind the scenes, but ev- attention back to the economy, and there’s— erybody gets to look in on the battlefield. on the Hill, in your own party, there’s a lot The President. Well, the instant commu- of skepticism about whether or not the tax nications part was one of the reasons why cuts can get the job done. You started at $750 I was comfortable in giving Tommy Franks billion. You’ve now been talking about $550 and the commanders in the field the go- billion. The Senate is talking about $350 bil- ahead to take the shot at Saddam Hussein lion. Would you take $350 billion? on the first day. Because there in the Oval The President. Well, I think it ought to Office, we were getting near-instant feed- be—actually, I think it ought to be more ro- back from eyes on the ground, what he was bust, and the reason why is because a lot seeing, what he felt the conditions were like. of economists have told me that the tax cut It was an amazing moment to think that a needs to be sizeable enough to affect de- person risking his life, viewing the farms, mand—job creation. And that’s why I’m watching the entries, seeing, observing what pushing what I’m pushing, and I’m not going 480 Apr. 24 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2003 to quit pushing until they end up voting. I and making that the highest of the high prior- believe it’s the right thing. ities. I think the country is ready to make The American people need to know that a sacrifice, to do something. last January I put out a job plan, and the The President. Well, actually, there’s Congress has been debating it, talking about been a significant discussion about new it. And it was important in January. It’s im- sources of energy. I was the guy that stood portant now, and I expect them to get a good in front of Congress and asked Congress to jobs bill out. appropriate $1.2 billion to advance the hy- Mr. Brokaw. The Congressional Budget drogen automobile. In other words—as well Office, however, says, you know, they’ve as ask Congress to appropriate monies to ex- looked at it with three or four different mod- plore the opportunities for nuclear fusion. els, and it’s just going to be too small in terms And I believe that instead of getting mired of the impact on the overall economy. in this talk about command and control and The President. Well, I disagree with that. lawsuits and regulations, that we ought to use I would like—I would hope that they would our technological capabilities to leapfrog the argue the case on the floor of the Senate and status quo and lead the world to a more en- the floor of the House, but the skeptics said ergy efficient society. it needs to be bigger. One of the things they Mr. Brokaw. But should we also assume also said was it’s very important to hold the that we can burn at the same rate that we line on spending—that’s another thing, that have been? And you know, there’s just no we accomplished something in the budget, question about it, we’ve been on an energy discretionary spending is being held to about consumption binge. 4 percent. On the spending side, we’ve got The President. Yes, that’s right. And I restraint. We just need to make sure the think that that’s why we need new tech- package is robust enough to create new jobs nologies to help us go from one era, a hydro- so people can find work. carbon era, to a technologically driven era. Mr. Brokaw. It’s tough to come out here And I believe we can get there. We’ve got to Ohio, though. You’ve got a Republican energy for, you know, a decade or two, with- Governor who went in at a very high number, out the consumer suffering badly. But now and now he’s down to around 42 percent in is the time to move on new technologies. This terms of approval rating. He’s having to raise is precisely the initiative I laid out for Con- taxes, cut services. Wouldn’t it be better to gress. defer a little bit, get him off the hook? And these are important services that he’s talking Arctic National Wildlife Refuge about. It’s about Medicaid and—— Mr. Brokaw. You’re not going to get the The President. No, not at all. Actually, Arctic Wildlife Refuge this time, though, do what’s important is—and this is the reason you think? to come to Ohio. It’s a place where people The President. Well, it’s foolish not to, are looking for work. And I feel so strongly in my judgment. There’s a lot of natural gas that my job package will work, I’m willing up there. And the reason we need natural to come to a place where people need work gas here in America is so—places like Cali- and say, let’s get this done in the Congress. fornia built a lot of electrical plants that run And this is the perfect place to bring a mes- on natural gas. We’ve got to get it from some- sage of job creation, because there are people where, and I believe we can explore in the here that—in the manufacturing sector, in Arctic Wildlife in an environmentally sen- particular—that are looking for work. sitive way—and so do a lot of other people. But it’s become such a political issue. Energy Policy Washington, you know, is a town that—you Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, I’ve been know this better than me, I mean—— struck by the fact that you now have the Mr. Brokaw. No, I don’t know it better country’s attention, and there’s been almost than you. You’re in the cockpit. [Laughter] no discussion about the need for conserva- The President. Well, you’ve been there tion on energy and finding renewable sources longer than me. You’re much older than I Administration of George W. Bush, 2003 / Apr. 24 481 am. [Laughter] But they take an issue and all in perspective. Did you have a moment turn it into such high politics. Really, the Arc- like that? tic Wildlife Refuge is a classic example of The President. Oh, I think, yes, maybe an issue that’s been over-politicized, where about the day the prisoners, the people took the science never is allowed to emerge. We the wrong turn, the kids, the cooks, and the can drill for natural gas, which we need to people like that from El Paso, Fort Bliss, do, in an environmentally safe way. went the wrong way. That was a tough day. And it’s got to be—listen, I went down to President’s Spirituality and Camp Lejeune and met with family of— Decisionmaking who’ve lost their lives. I met a young lieuten- Mr. Brokaw. Let me ask you about the ant’s wife with a young baby, and it’s tough. war and your attitudes about it. It’s well The amazing thing is, of course—I known that you’re a man of very strong faith. shouldn’t say ‘‘of course’’—but the amazing You have political and national security re- thing about meeting those people is they sponsibilities as well. Was there a time when gave me great strength. They were proud of it was difficult to reconcile those two roles, their loved ones’ sacrifice. They understood your political and national security responsi- why we were there, and they were strong, bility and your own spiritual obligation? really strong. The President. Well, listen, any time you Mr. Brokaw. There was a young marine think about committing someone into com- who was killed, whose father in Baltimore bat is an emotional moment. You can’t be held up his picture and said, ‘‘I want the detached from the human life involved with President to see this. It’s my only son, and war. And I genuinely feel that the decision I want the President to see this picture.’’ I made will make America more secure. And He was opposed to the war. Did you see I felt like the risks of doing nothing, the risk it? of taking no action far exceeded the risks of The President. No, I didn’t see that, but combat, particularly since I knew our plan I’m sure I can understand why a dad would was geared toward minimizing life—mini- feel that way. I would feel the same way if mizing loss of life—not only minimizing loss I were a dad about how miserable I felt if of life on our side but on the side of the I lost my son. innocent Iraqis. I don’t bring God into my life to be a polit- Politics of War ical person. I ask God for strength and guid- Mr. Brokaw. Can you imagine being FDR ance. I ask God to help me be a better per- and running World War II all those years— son. But the decision about war and peace Truman, Korea? All the years that Vietnam was a decision I made based upon what I went on and 57,000 lives were lost. thought were the best interests of the Amer- The President. I know. ican people. I was able to step back from Mr. Brokaw. Now that you’ve had your religion, because I have a job to do. And I, own—— on bended knee to the good Lord, asked Him The President. One month. to help me to do my job in a way that that’s Mr. Brokaw. ——one month, but your wise. own time on the crucible, to know what the country would go through? Casualties of War The President. It’s a very interesting Mr. Brokaw. I had a difficult moment on question, because—yes, I know, I can’t imag- the air when the mother of a marine who ine what it would be like to have been got killed called in and wanted to talk about through the Vietnam war as the President her son and said, ‘‘You know, I like what the of the United States. I hope I would have networks are doing, but all those graphics done it differently. I hope I would have had and all that fancy coverage, for those of us a clearer mission and given the militaries the who are out here with children in harm’s way, tools and their strategy necessary to achieve it’s murderous, Mr. Brokaw.’’ And it put it a mission, as opposed to politicizing the war 482 Apr. 24 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2003 the way they did. But you’re right, it’s a strain Former President Bush on the country. Mr. Brokaw. So was your dad, by the way. On the other hand, the coverage was a lit- The President. I’m sure he was. Nobody tle different. likes wars. Mr. Brokaw. It was. Mr. Brokaw. Did your dad talk to you The President. The perpetual moves 24 every day? hours a day. The President. No. I check in with him Mr. Brokaw. And part of that was, by the on occasion, but now we don’t talk every day. way, that it became very emotional very Mr. Brokaw. How about Barbara? What quickly. One of the things that you said was does she have to say, your mother? that you wanted to liberate the Iraqi people The President. She’s as feisty as ever. so they could speak their minds. But in this She’s doing well. She doesn’t follow every- country, when some people spoke their thing in the news and the opinion like Dad minds and it happened to be in opposition does. He’s an every-word man. of the war, they got jumped on by a lot of Mr. Brokaw. Do you seek his counsel? folks. It’s a little tricky. Here’s your father, some- The President. Oh, I don’t think so. body that you revered and love, and he’s Mr. Brokaw. Well, the Dixie Chicks, for been there before. But at the same time, example. Would you have them come to the you’re now the President. How do you work White House? that out? The President. I mean, the Dixie Chicks The President. Well, I really don’t spend are free to speak their mind. They can say a lot of time hashing over policy with him. what they want to say. And just because— He knows that I am much better informed they shouldn’t have their feelings hurt just than he could possibly be. He gives me— because some people don’t want to buy their our relationship is more of—and our con- records when they speak out. You know, free- versations are more along the line of a dad dom is a two-way street. But I have—don’t and a son, a dad conveying to his son how really care what the Dixie Chicks said. I want much he loves him, which is important. Even to do what I think is right for the American at the age of 56 years old, it’s important. people, and if some singers or Hollywood stars feel like speaking out, that’s fine. That’s Toppling the Baghdad Statue the great thing about America. It stands in stark contrast to Iraq, by the way. Mr. Brokaw. Did you call him the day the statue came down of Saddam Hussein? The President. I can’t remember. First Lady’s Role Mr. Brokaw. Because that was a memo- Mr. Brokaw. What did you and Laura talk rable day. about at the end of the day? During Usama The President. It was. It was. bin Laden, she was counseling you on your Mr. Brokaw. Did you watch all that? language—[laughter]—saying—— The President. I watched some of it. As The President. It wasn’t so every day. you know, I’ve got a schedule to keep. I don’t [Laughter] have time to sit around watching TV all day Mr. Brokaw. ——‘‘Georgie, you don’t long. But somebody—I think the—Ashley or have to say, wanted dead or alive.’’ Blake said, the statue, they’re about to get The President. Well, she counsels me on it down. They had a guy hammering on it a lot of things. Most of the time it’s—but for a while, and I watched the ham- who’s going to listen. She understood all mering—— along why I was making decisions I was mak- Mr. Brokaw. It took a while to pull it ing. She understood the threat that Iraq down. posed. She understood that Iraq was a part The President. I watched them hammer. of the war on terror. And she doesn’t—she’s And then they said, ‘‘They’re hooking it up, like a lot of people; she was nervous about and they’ve got the crane out there.’’ And war. I said, ‘‘Well, let me know.’’ They said, ‘‘Well, Administration of George W. Bush, 2003 / Apr. 24 483 it’s about to come down.’’ So I hustled and this one eyewitness, he’s not going to show then watched it. up anywhere.

Iraqi Information Minister Al Qaida and North Korea Mr. Brokaw. What about the Iraqi infor- Mr. Brokaw. Final question. You still mation minister, who to the very end— have two big issues out there on the horizon, [laughter]—— Al Qaida and North Korea. North Korea The President. He’s my man. He was today saying that it’s reprocessed 8,000 pluto- great. [Laughter] Somebody accused us of nium rods, and if you don’t start talking to hiring him and putting him there. He was them, they’re willing to sell them. a classic. The President. Yes. See, they’re back to Mr. Brokaw. Al-Sahhaf. the old blackmail game. One of our goals and The President. Al-Sahhaf. objectives must be to strengthen the non- Mr. Brokaw. He said, ‘‘We are repulsing proliferation regimes and get the whole them at the airport. This war is just about world focused on the proliferation of weap- over.’’ [Laughter] ons of mass destruction or the materials for The President. He was great. [Laughter] weapons of mass destruction. And North Mr. Brokaw. Did you watch him actually? Korea is making my case that we’ve got to [Laughter] come together. The President. I did watch some of his And we started that process in the North clips. You know, a lot of the stuff I get, peo- Korean Peninsula that is coming together. ple come in and report to me—did you hear The Chinese now, for the first time, are part- what so-and-so said, or, did you see that? So ners at the table. I look forward to hearing I get a lot of things secondhand. what the Chinese say about being rebuffed But in the case of the statue or Sahhaf, by the North Koreans because they, too, be- somebody would say, ‘‘He’s getting ready to lieve that the Peninsula ought to be nuclear- speak,’’ and I’d pop out of a meeting or turn weapons-free. This will give us an oppor- and watch the TV. tunity to say to the North Koreans and the world, we’re not going to be threatened. On Saddam Hussein the other hand we, the world, must come Mr. Brokaw. And did they tell you when together to make sure institutions like the Saddam made those bizarre video appear- IAEA are effective at stopping proliferation. ances very late in the war, when he was said It’s another reason, by the way, for us to to be walking around the neighborhood—— also advance the missile defense systems, be- The President. Yes, I saw some of that. cause the missile defense system will make Like, Condi will come in and say—I’ll pick it less likely that a nuclear country could up the phone; I’ve got direct link now—I’ll blackmail us or Japan or any one of our say, ‘‘Well, Condi, what is this business about, friends. what does the Agency say about this latest Mr. Brokaw. And Al Qaida? videotape?’’ She’ll pop in and say, ‘‘You The President. Yes, we’re on the hunt on know, I talked to Tenet, and Tenet says our Al Qaida. analysts can’t imagine that the guy could pos- Mr. Brokaw. Has it diminished 50 per- sibly be alive, walking around Baghdad the cent, 70 percent? same day the statue came down.’’ The President. I can’t give you a number, You know, as I told you, we had some evi- but it’s certainly diminished. And Khalid dence early on that strikes from the first day Sheik Mohammed’s arrest, right before the may have gotten him. I say ‘‘may’’ because Iraqi war, was a blow to the Al Qaida net- we don’t have the DNA in hand to prove, work. They’re still moving around. And we’re and people really don’t want to be in a posi- watching. And we’re moving. We’re cutting tion, Tom, where you make—broadcasting off money. There are some parts of Afghani- success and then all of a sudden Saddam stan where we think some are hiding, and Hussein shows up somewhere. According to we’ve got—we’re on their trail. 484 Apr. 24 / Administration of George W. Bush, 2003

The other day, for example, in the Situa- ity,’’ reflecting a deep sorrow that continues tion Room, we had Tommy up, and he gave to haunt them and their neighbors, the Turk- us a briefing on Iraq. He’s the CENTCOM ish people. The suffering that befell the Ar- commander, as you know, also responsible menian people in 1915 is a tragedy for all for Afghanistan, and then the general in place humanity, which the world should not forget. in Afghanistan came up. So we split the brief- I join the Armenian-American community ing between Iraq and Afghanistan. And it was and Armenians around the world in mourn- an important briefing because he was telling ing the horrendous loss of life. us troop strength and troop strategies as well I also salute our wise and bold friends from as how well the country is beginning to get Armenia and Turkey who are coming to- on its feet. gether in a spirit of reconciliation to consider But the point I’m trying to make is, is that these events and their significance. I applaud we are constantly moving against Al Qaida them for rising above bitterness, and taking in Afghanistan as we speak or as we conduct action to create a better future. I wish them the Iraq theater. success, building on their recent and signifi- Mr. Brokaw. Mr. President, thank you cant achievements, as they work together in very much for your time today. We really a spirit of hope and understanding. appreciate it. As we remember those who perished and The President. I enjoyed it. suffered, we salute the nation of Armenia, and Armenians everywhere. The United NOTE: The interview was taped at 11:14 a.m. States is grateful for the contributions of Ar- aboard Air Force One for later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to former Presi- menian Americans to our national life. Gen- dent Saddam Hussein and former Information erations of Armenians have employed wis- Minister Muhammad Said Kazim al-Sahhaf of dom, courage, and centuries-old traditions to Iraq; Prime Minister Tony Blair of the United overcome great suffering and enrich their Kingdom; President Jose Maria Aznar of Spain; adopted American homeland. former National Security Adviser Brent Scow- The United States is proud to be a friend croft; journalists George Will and Bill Kristol; of Armenia, a young state with an ancient Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) heritage. We are deepening our partnership and Chairman Yasser Arafat of the Palestinian Au- to help achieve a secure, prosperous, and dig- thority; NBC journalist David Bloom, who died of natural causes in Operation Iraqi Freedom; nified future for the citizens of Armenia. The country music group the Dixie Chicks; Usama bin United States is committed to achieving a Laden, leader of the Al Qaida terrorist organiza- just and lasting settlement to the Nagorno- tion; and Khalid Sheik Muhammed, senior Al Karabakh conflict. We will also continue to Qaida leader responsible for planning the Sep- help Armenia as it strives to strengthen its tember 11 attack, who was captured in Pakistan democracy and market economy. on March 1. A portion of this interview could not On behalf of the American people, I send be verified because the tape was incomplete. solemn wishes to the Armenian people on this day of remembrance. Our nations stand Message on the Observance of together, determined to create a future of Armenian Remembrance Day, 2003 peace, prosperity, and freedom for the citi- zens of our countries, for our regions, and April 24, 2003 for the world. Today marks the anniversary of a horrible tragedy, the mass killings and forced exile of George W. Bush countless Armenians in the final days of the Ottoman Empire. Many Armenians refer to NOTE: An original was not available for these appalling events as the ‘‘great calam- verification of the content of this message.