FROM ANGRY YOUNG MAN

Adrian Slade talks to TO Lord Tony Greaves SIMMERING OLD GURU

here is something a little incongruous about the notion of the Liberal Democrats’ oldest angry young man donning the Termine of a peer of the realm. For those with long party memories, Tony Greaves has always seemed to be at the forefront of the vocif- erously democratic ant-establish- ment faction within the party, whether in the Young Liberal Movement attacking the tactics and policies of Jo Grimond and Jeremy Thorpe, opposing the Lib-Lab Pact, or fighting his cor- ner against the Liberal/SDP Alli- ance and the subsequent merger terms, not to mention aspects of today’s party that annoy him. On the other hand, he is also acknowledged for his shafts of political wisdom and for bringing about the Liberal Party’s key  Assembly commitment to com- Greaves happily accepts the They have two, now both gradu- munity politics that transformed description ‘radical’, seeing him- ates. Party members may not Liberal (and later Alliance) cam- self as a ‘a radical Liberal, a left- have noticed this alleged calm, paigning methods so success- wing Liberal and a social Liberal, although in conversation there is fully after the near collapse of all of which are part of the main- an affable humour and likeability the party at the previous election. stream of British Liberalism over about him. He remains a consummate cam- the last hundred years.’ He is less Professionally he has been a paigner, nationally now as well certain whether he is as angry as teacher, but much of his work- as locally. Recently he has even he used to be – his wife Heather ing life has been in party jobs become a Pendle councillor once told me that, to his evident sur- – election agent, publications, the again. ‘I couldn’t keep away from prise, ‘he has been much calmer Association of Liberal (and then getting myself elected to some- since they had the children’. Liberal Democrat) Councillors, thing’, he says.

30 Journal of Liberal History 45 Winter 2004–05 FROM ANGRY YOUNG MAN TO SIMMERING OLD GURU

etc. His wife’s comment prompted direct-grant grammar school, culture was more that of tradi- me to ask what, if anything, he Queen Elizabeth’s in Wakefield. tional liberal education. did with the spare time you sus- He went on to university at ‘I was not debating as a party pect he doesn’t have. Apparently Oxford, where he joined the Lib- Liberal but it was the end of the the answer is, or was until he was eral Party. I asked him why. fifties, and there was a general ill last year, rock-climbing. You do ‘I didn’t come from a Liberal view that the Labour Party was need calm and nerve for that. family. We lived in Bradford and split and was buggered, rather as As it turns out, Tony Greaves every now and then my father, it is now. We had the Tories who and I joined the Liberal Party who was a policeman, used to had been in power for seven or in the same year, , but we send half a crown to the local eight years, a Prime Minister had come through very differ- Tory party. My great-grandpar- who seemed to be an old fogey. ent routes. By then I had already ents, cockneys by birth, were There had been the whole crisis done two years’ National Serv- involved in the founding meeting of Suez. And then there was Jo. ice, three years at Cambridge of the Independent Labour Party Who knows what his appeal was? and nearly two years as a copy- in Bradford. My mother’s father He was just charismatic. And, for writer with J. Walter Thompson. was a rabid Tory and his father all his top-of-the-range Edin- At Cambridge my priorities was a schoolmaster in Bradford burgh accent, in those days he had been Footlights, cabaret, who organised a petition for came across as classless and very theatre and law, strictly in that the extension of the tramway to modern.’ order. Apart from demonstrat- Eccles Hill. So local campaigning Greaves So Tony Greaves joined the ing against Suez and the Soviet was in the blood. He was also a happily Liberal Party – for reasons very intervention in Hungary, I had member of the Orange Order’, similar to my own. But how does not taken much active interest in he adds apologetically. accepts the Jo’s classless party square with politics. Not until after  did ‘But at school we debated eve- that ermine he is entitled to wear Jo Grimond fully impinge upon rything. The school was an inter- description today? my consciousness. I then found esting mix of fee-payers, one or ‘The concept of wearing myself helping two early ’s two others like myself who had ‘radical’. ermine is a nonsense. The fact that Young Liberals – Antonia Grey, got in because we were in the top He is less you have to be ennobled to sit in a fellow JWT copywriter, and  per cent on the -plus, and a the Upper House is outdated, to Tony Bunyan – to write a ‘Votes third group who were bussed in certain put it mildly. I would like to see at ’ leaflet and the Young Lib- from mining villages in the West a separation of honours and the erals’ Charter for Youth (). Riding of Yorkshire where there whether he job that needs to be done here. I By contrast, Tony Greaves took was no grammar school. They don’t believe in the honours sys- to politics at a much earlier age. At were the ordinary grammar- is as angry tem. I once turned down an OBE seventeen he was busy debating school intake. The playground as he used offered by Paddy Ashdown but and absorbing issues in the sixth culture was dictated by the min- no, of course I didn’t turn down a form of his ‘very enlightened’ ing villages. The sixth-form to be. peerage – certainly not – because

Journal of Liberal History 45 Winter 2004–05 31 FROM ANGRY YOUNG MAN TO SIMMERING OLD GURU

He goes on to cite the exam- the so-called ‘Red Guard’, when ple of a new planned centre for George Kiloh, Tony Greaves, asylum-seekers in Worcester that Terry Lacey and a few other his wider remit as a peer enables equally impassioned Young Lib- him to speak against and help to erals attempted to commit the oppose locally. I get the feeling party to a non-nuclear UK and that he has not quite answered withdrawal from NATO. It was the question of Commons ‘cor- a spectacularly noisy occasion ruption’ but we move on to his in which Richard Moore, with preferred model for the House of similar passion, just succeeded Lords. in defending the platform and a ‘I would like to see the whole more traditional party policy. It House elected at a regional level was followed by a debate almost by STV, but we don’t want the as lively on ‘workers’ control’, led new House competing directly by Terry Lacey and, again, Tony with the Commons, or being Greaves. He recalls that highpoint seen as a stepping stone to it. So in what soon became the Young you prevent that by having a long Liberal Movement. tenure – twelve to fifteen years ‘It all came out of that gen- – and then a bar on subsequent eration of people who joined election to the Commons. The the party when it was advancing parties would decide who the hugely. There had been Orping- candidates would be.’ ton, followed by a number of near So there would be no non- misses, including a by-election in party or appointed members? Leicester. Then Harold Wilson ‘Well, yes there would. The had become leader of the Labour party says  per cent appointed. Party and took over our ‘time for I would go further and say more a change’ message. The Liberal sitting in Parliament is a politi- than that but I wouldn’t give vote went up in the ’ election cal job on behalf of the party and them a vote. Let them give us but overall the result was disap- everything I believe in and stand their knowledge and exper- pointing and in the subsequent for. So I accepted the peerage that tise, but most of the appointed parliament the party pretended inevitably goes with it.’ independent members say they to have its teeth in the red meat Tony Greaves finds no discom- will only vote when they have of power when it didn’t. We won fort in blocking legislation passed listened to the debate. We can’t more seats in the ’ election, but by a democratically elected House have that. We haven’t the time by that time Jo was exhausted, the of Commons, because he believes for that.’ party was running out of ideas and that, due to the electoral system, He admits that this somewhat didn’t know where it was going. the current composition of the contradictory, not to say con- A small group of us younger party House of Lords actually reflects troversial, version of a second members felt something must be the way the country votes much chamber is not achievable and he done. We decided to get more more accurately than the Com- suspects that under the present involved in young people’s cam- mons. ‘That’s why I believe we government no version of an paigning with other groups, par- have a perfect democratic legiti- elected chamber is possible. ‘Not ticularly the Young Communists. macy. If you believe, as I do, that under this prime minister anyway. We also decided to try to make we have a fundamentally corrupt He wants them all appointed.’ the Liberal Party more radical in electoral system in this country, I He rejects my suggestion its policies and more campaign- have no conscience at all about that the recent return to Pendle ing in its approach. That’s why we voting down proposals that arise Council of Councillor Greaves started at the Brighton Assem- from such a system.’ indicates any loss of interest in bly with defence and industrial So the House of Commons is the House of Lords. ‘There are democracy.’ just as corrupt as the Lords? issues locally that I want to get He admits that in party terms ‘No. The individuals are involved with.’ the efforts of the Young Liberals elected so they have some legiti- This was a cue to look back were not wholly successful. ‘The macy to speak on behalf of their thirty years from Greaves the YL movement grew. We had a constituents. In the House of simmering older guru to Greaves record  delegates at a confer- Lords I don’t attempt to do that the angry Young Liberal radical ence the following year and two job. I can speak for the party and that I first became aware of in the years later we were at the core of myself or with a wider remit, and sixties. His first Liberal Assembly the ‘Stop the ’ (South Africa I frequently do. It’s the system was in . Mine was in . cricket) Tour’ campaign, but dur- that is corrupt.’ Brighton, , was the year of ing those years the party was a

32 Journal of Liberal History 45 Winter 2004–05 FROM ANGRY YOUNG MAN TO SIMMERING OLD GURU

flop really. Thorpe was a hope- effect until the ’s and ’s, but it was mostly the members who less leader with no philosophi- he has no doubt that community did not see themselves as Liberal, cal depth of any kind. He was a campaigning is now embedded like David Owen, who decided to brilliant actor and mimic but his deep in the Liberal Democrat oppose it. He himself was a pug- idea of leadership was to mimic approach and historically he has nacious and unhappy member Jo Grimond and try to make a right to claim its origins in his of the Liberal negotiating team speeches like Jo had made them and others’ efforts at the  who did not accept the final out- but, after the jokes, it was with- Liberal Assembly. come. His decision seems to have out any of Jo’s feeling for issues. In ’ there was a change of been based on a mix of instinc- He thought he was an organisa- party leadership. Tony Greaves tive discomfort with the detail of tion man but his efforts there voted for David Steel but he did the constitution and a refusal to flopped too. What was needed not support his pact with the accept the name ‘Social & Liberal was a leader who could provide Callaghan Labour government. Democrats’, the unwanted com- a different version of progressive ‘There was nothing in it for the promise eventually agreed with politics from Harold Wilson. He party. I am not against coalitions. much Liberal reluctance. failed in that too.’ For example, I am a great fan of Greaves’ comment at the time Despite these fierce criticisms the current very successful coali- was: ‘Merger has failed to achieve he does not think that, if Jo Gri- tion in Scotland, but in the Lib- something better. The new party mond had remained as leader, Lab Pact we gave everything and is universally labelled a “centre results would have been very dif- got nothing.’ party” in a way the Liberal Party ferent, and accepts that, although He agrees that the arrival of never was.’ Grimond was his sort of leader the SDP did little to change his ‘I was a very unhappy per- and Thorpe wasn’t, it was Thorpe views on alliances. He was the son,’ he adds today, ‘and so were who was ultimately the more sole sceptical platform speaker the Pendle Liberals who decided successful of the two in terms of at the famous Llandudno fringe constitutionally to opt out of the achieving votes. He also believes meeting of . ‘I was concerned He has no new party, only returning when strongly that it was the Young that we did not stop being the the name was changed to Liberal Liberals’ approach to campaign- Liberal Party of British politics. doubt that Democrats.’ ing that saved the Liberal Party I did not believe that the “mod- He retains his hostile views after the election debacle of . erate” and moderating version community about the early days and believes This approach was at the root of of the Liberal Party had become campaign- that only the new party’s local the resolution passed at the East- prevalent as the rationale for the government base kept it alive, but bourne Assembly committing the party. I believe we were there to ing is now the Greaves of  strikes me party to campaign through com- advance Liberalism and radical as uncharacteristically optimis- munity politics. Liberal policies. I feared a wishy- embedded tic and relaxed about the current ‘A lot of Young Liberals, like washy compromise. In the event I state of the Liberal Democrats Terry Lacey, George Kiloh and don’t think the Alliance actually deep in and their prospects. To most peo- Hilary Wainwright, had left the was a complete compromise but the Liberal ple his past reputation is one of party by then, but those that it took a huge amount of time, disgruntlement, anger with the remained, like myself, Gordon effort and inter-party negotiation Democrat party leadership and democratic Lishman, Graham Tope, Michael to prevent it. Secondly I didn’t see rage on a wide range of issues. Steed and others, decided we why Liberal politicians who had approach Indeed, he recalls Alan Beith ask- were still Liberals and we believed busted a gut to achieve what they ing him during the merger nego- that what was called in those had achieved in their patch had to and his- tiations in ’ whether he had days direct-action campaigning give it all away. In the early days torically he strong views about everything, to on locals issues was the way to it was all based on an SDP mis- which he replied: ‘If I have a view get elected. One or two individ- conception that only they could has a right I like to press it strongly, but there ual Liberals like Wallace Lawler, win seats, and of course the seat are lots of things I don’t have a Joan Harris, Cyril Carr, Michael negotiations were a nightmare as to claim view about it, so I don’t say any- Meadowcroft and Stanley Run- a result, but within a couple of thing.’ Were anger and impatience dle had already demonstrated years many senior members of its origins part of his nature? ‘Perhaps they this in the ’s by building some the SDP, including Shirley Wil- in his and are, but I only look for things that kind of Chinese wall around liams, Bill Rodgers and, of course, are not OK. I have never seen the their own wards. Some peo- Roy Jenkins, were openly recog- others’ point of making a speech say- ple in the party criticised us for nising that they were as Liberal as ing you agree with things.’ So if putting all the emphasis on get- the rest of us and that led to closer efforts at he says nothing, is he happy? ‘By ting elected but isn’t that what co-operation.’ and large, yes.’ A useful clue for politics are about?’ Nevertheless not close enough the 1970 Greaves watchers. He concedes that this for Tony Greaves to back the idea Liberal These days his political dis- approach, linked to national of merger in , although he gruntlement and argument is campaigning, did not take full himself says that on the SDP side Assembly. pretty tightly focused. Within the

Journal of Liberal History 45 Winter 2004–05 33 FROM ANGRY YOUNG MAN TO SIMMERING OLD GURU party he recently fought a long What still party that public services ought principal enemy. He is virulent constitutional battle with senior to be run in the public sector by in his opposition to Labour cen- party members to make it easier differenti- elected public bodies, and not tralism and conservatism, and his for ethnic minority candidates to by market economics. Both the closing advice to Charles Kennedy get selected. As a result, the par- ates him other parties are veering off into is to attack the government more ty’s first elected ethnic minority short-term privatisation. Thirdly, sharply right across the board. candidate, and the North West from most local government. We believe in He expected the Leicester South Region’s second MEP, is Saj Liberal democratically elected local gov- win and believes that the recent Karim. In the House of Lords, ernment, probably by STV, with by-election results could change with (Lord) Chris Rennard, he Democrats enough real powers and freedom British politics significantly, partic- has used his long experience of from government interference ularly for the Tories. ‘He [Charles elections to lead the hard-fought is that, to do a proper job. And I believe Kennedy] has been asking the opposition to Labour’s exten- STV will happen. Look at Scot- right questions on Iraq but now sion of all-postal voting, which he from a land. Thirty years ago, who he has got to be much sharper believes to be wide open to cor- radical and would have thought it?’ in challenging Labour’. On what ruption. ‘They are treating votes It is hard to tell whether Tony particularly? ‘On everything.’ like Eurovision Song Contest democratic Greaves has merely become more If he does, he can count on the votes. They have lost all sense of accepting of the party or whether very full support of this unpre- an individual vote cast in person perspec- the party itself has become more dictable but hard-working peer. in secret and counted as one vote.’ Liberal and therefore more Although he supports the prin- tive, he has acceptable to him. What still dif- A shorter version of this interview was ciple of devolution, he has fought always seen ferentiates him from most Liberal first published in Liberal Democrat equally hard against the govern- Democrats is that, from a radi- News in September . ment’s proposed referendums and Labour as cal and democratic perspective, structure for the English regions, he has always seen Labour as the which he believes will be an extra the princi- layer of bureaucracy and ineffec- tive. Time and again he cites local pal enemy. government experience as being an invaluable tool when arguing a case in the House of Lords. ‘I am a person who has a whole series of individual personal cam- LETTERS paigns running at the same time. If you are a radical politician you Speeches and names provoked the change – as was should see life in terms of projects Issue  was amongst the moun- pointed out in an earlier issue of and adventures. Other people tain of papers and magazine I’ve the Journal – was Frank Davis’ can deal with the administration just carted back to Kinshasa after change of name by deed poll to and bureaucracy that needs to be a few days back in Leeds. ‘Frank Liberal Davis’ when he done. That’s fine.’ Re the continuing SDP contested the Acton by-election. The Greaves volcano still sim- (‘Fourth Party, Fifth Column?’) Third, no doubt many readers mers but these days rarely does it I recall the count at the Bootle have pointed out, in connection spit directly at the party, which, I by-election which was the final with David Boyle’s review of suspect, now sees him more as a debacle for the SDP. As the David Walters’ book, that it was shrewd guru than an angry rebel. article points out, Jack Holmes George Dangerfield, not Trevor Unlike most other senior Liberal finished seventh, but he claimed Wilson, who wrote the impor- Democrats he does not indulge in his right to make a speech in the tant but idiosyncratic book The speculation about prospects, but time-honoured descending order Strange Death of Liberal England. he is prepared to give his three of votes polled. It was chutzpah Trevor Wilson wrote a different reasons why people should vote at its best! He began by saying, though still important book, The Liberal Democrat rather than ‘I came here tonight with a vic- Downfall of the Liberal Party. Labour or Tory. tory speech in my pocket – and Michael Meadowcroft ‘Firstly, because we are the it will have to stay there’, and only remaining democratic continued, ‘I would like to thank major party left in politics. We all those who voted for me – and Counterfactuals still have a party where policy it won’t take long.’ I read Mark Pack’s review of is made mostly by its members, Second, C.H. Pritchard’s let- Prime Minister Portillo and Other and I think that is important to ter on the change in the law to Things that Never Happened (Jour- electors as well as activists. Sec- permit party names on ballot nal of Liberal History ) with ondly, public services. I think papers was valuable evidence, interest, and would agree that it we are holding the line in the but the ‘direct action’ that finally steers a middle course between

34 Journal of Liberal History 45 Winter 2004–05