InC the immediateO aftermathALI of the 2015 generalT electionI AdrianON Slade interviewed ANick CleggN and ten otherD Liberal DemocratT Hex-ministers,E nine of whomD he hadE interviewedLUG for Liberal Democrat News Ein 2011, to assess and compare their original hopes for coalition with their views now.

ery few Liberals alive today were adults during VChurchill’s wartime coa- lition and none are old enough to remember Lloyd George’s coalition or the political arrangements of the ’20s and ’30s. We can ignore the ‘Lib–Lab Pact’, which was a quali- fied agreement to support rather than a full coalition. So the political experience of the last five years has been unique for MPs, journalists and the public alike. Partly because it was so new, coalition has cre- ated plenty of controversy and it will inevitably attract a good deal more in the political analysis still to come, even though it may no longer be the political pattern of future government that it looked like being before the surprise return of a majority Tory government on the ex-ministers I have interviewed for all Liberal Democrats? Was the 7 May 2015. this time around for agreeing in sacrifice of party independence for a In 2011, a year after the forma- principle, before the election, to let partnership in government worth- tion of the Conservative–Liberal me talk to them afterwards what- while or was it the issues of the coa- Democrat coalition in 2010, the edi- ever the result. lition itself? These were just some of tor of Liberal Democrat News, Deir- Where applicable, these new the questions to which I was seek- dre Razzall, gave me the chance interviews are prefaced by short ing answers. to interview for the paper Deputy excerpts from my interviews of Because political events moved Prime Minister Nick Clegg and 2010 and/or 2011. Inevitably some so fast after 7 May – and to reflect eleven of the Liberal Democrat of the comments from the inter- the potential impact that the return secretaries or ministers of state viewees will have been coloured by of a Conservative majority govern- appointed in 2010. I had also inter- their own or the party’s results – in ment, the cataclysmic loss of Liberal viewed Nick Clegg in September of other words, by the public’s final Democrat seats and the resulting that year. verdict on the coalition. The elec- leadership election may have had Contrary to many original pre- tion was not an easy experience for on some of their answers – with the dictions, the coalition did conclude any Liberal Democrat, but I have exception of Nick Clegg, the order its full five years in office without aimed for the objective view. What that follows indicates the order in falling apart, so I am grateful to the were relationships between the two which the interviews were con- Journal of Liberal History for support- parties in government really like? ducted. I believe this analysis also ing me in the idea of revisiting most What rewards and achievements, deserves just one view of the coali- of those original interviewees, and if any, were there? What were their tion and its unpredicted electoral also one later secretary of state, Ed greatest frustrations? Comparing outcome from an informed out- Davey, to gauge their reaction to their original hopes for the coalition sider. That is why I invited Chris national coalition in practice. I am with 2015, could they explain why Huhne to fill that role with a final also grateful to Nick Clegg and all the election result was so disastrous ‘postscript’ interview.

6 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 InC the immediateO aftermathALI of the 2015 generalT electionI AdrianON Slade interviewed ANick CleggN and ten otherD Liberal DemocratT Hex-ministers,E nine of whomD he hadE interviewedLUG for Liberal Democrat News Ein 2011, to assess and compare their original hopes for coalition with their views now.

Nick Clegg Leader of the Liberal Democrats 2007–15; Deputy Prime Minister 2010–15; MP for distribution for the graduate. We Sheffield Hallam since 2005 would have been in a better posi- tion if we had taken more time to How it looked to him then have five years. We have to hold explain the dilemma.’ (September 2010) our nerve. The prize is not now. We He and the whole cabinet had ‘As Liberal Democrat leader and have to look ahead to 2015 when invested a lot of political capital deputy prime minister, I am in a we can say, “You may not have in economic recovery. Weren’t his very strong position to see that Lib- liked the coalition before and may hopes in very real danger of biting eral Democrat policies and values have disagreed with what we had the dust? are effected in what we do. In a coa- to do to restore the economy but ‘There is no doubt that things lition where we are simply not in now your children have got jobs to have deteriorated in Europe and the a position to implement the whole go to, you have a pupil premium, world, and it’s having an unforgiv- of our manifesto, any more than fairer taxes, a pension guarantee, a ing effect on us here too. That is not the Conservatives are. So there is greener economy, a reformed form Liberal to say we are powerless. There are a degree of compromise and, at of politics, restored civil liberties things we can do and are doing, for times, restraint, which means that ….” I think that would be a record Democrats example, to make it easier for peo- neither I, nor indeed David Cam- that people would say “OK they ple to grow businesses and employ eron, can or should speak out with took a risk for the benefit of the get the flak people. And then there is investment unbridled gusto exclusively on country and it paid off.” ’ for the long term – rail transport, behalf of our parties because we are for the bad renewable energy and the extra bor- trying to keep the balance and it is rowing we are allowing local author- a delicate balance. I am learning all (September 2011) things and ities to boost house building. But it the time, and I suspect David Cam- ‘Autumn to May [2010–11] was a does not do it all by next week.’ eron is too’. gruelling and unforgiving period no credit for ‘We are in very different terri- where we were being vilified and tory now and the media don’t yet blamed for everything unpopular, the good … and how it looks now (2 recognise it.’ not credited with anything popu- June 2015) ‘Liberal Democrats get the flak lar, and aggressively targeted by things partly It was Nick Clegg’s first interview for the bad things and no credit for our opponents, generally and per- since the electoral disasters of 7 the good things partly because, sonally. I always knew we would because, May. The time was 9.15 am, just unfortunately, this tends to hap- be attacked from left and right but three hours after the news broke pen to smaller parties in coali- it was remorseless, and particularly unfortu- that Charles Kennedy had died. tions around the world. No, it’s painful over the tuition fees issue. We both had some difficulty in get- not always endemic but there is a ‘In retrospect we should have nately, this ting down to business. Nick Clegg pattern. The second thing is that taken more time. Remember that tends to had already suffered more than his Labour have become enveloped in politically we were completely fair share of shocks. Now here was a mass fit of bile towards us, and isolated as a party. Both the other happen to another very personal one, for both that is reflected in parts of the press. parties wanted to raise fees. Also of us, and he would soon be in the We know that in the first few years the other alternatives would have smaller par- House of Commons paying his of this government we are going meant taking money away from, tribute to Charles. Luckily there to have to do unpopular things, perhaps, pensioners, the pupil pre- ties in coali- was still time for us to move on. which will overshadow a lot of our mium, or early years education. achievements.’ If you believe in social mobil- tions around Results ‘Selling coalition to the public ity it is important that you invest During those twenty-four hours and the media will not be easy. We in younger children and a fair the world. after the polls closed on 7 May, he

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 7 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers had just held his Sheffield seat but Conservative candidates were seri- Trust had otherwise been surrounded ously underwhelming, compared to But hadn’t issues like tuition fees by disaster as all but seven of his the popular Liberal Democrat MPs and the NHS reforms undermined colleagues lost their seats. It must they defeated, but the sheer weight trust in the party among large key have come as a terrible body blow of campaigning emails, telephone What we had groups of former Lib Dem support- after all he had done over the last calls and direct mail, targeted at ers such as teachers, students and five years. How had he coped with undecided voters, was overwhelm- to contend health workers? those two or three days after the ing our local campaigns, whether ‘There is actually not much evi- results were declared? or not the Conservatives had any with from the dence that we are thought to be any ‘Well I think that, like every- viable local infrastructure. In our more or less trustworthy than any body else, I am actually still cop- post mortem we may need to ask outset was other party’ – he cited instances ing. It is not something you can ourselves whether the days of our where the Tory and Labour parties compartmentalise. The reflections kind of local campaigning are now that we were were equally open to accusations and reverberations will continue being seriously challenged.’ so remorse- on trust. ‘All political parties are for a very long time. Like every- So why was the electorate appar- mistrusted and even now we [the one else I was braced for a difficult ently so unresponsive to everything lessly deni- Lib Dems] are still seen, according election night but I was completely that the Lib Dems had achieved in to the polls, as more likely to have shocked when that exit poll came government over the last five years? grated from our heart in the right place. Now, out. I couldn’t believe it. It seemed Furthermore, the message of Lib the fundamental structural problem at odds with everything we had Dem moderation of what the Tories right and left, the Liberal Democrats need to face found and been told. Our campaign might have done seemed to have is that we are a smaller party in a was felt to be among the best the fallen on deaf ears. Why was that? day in day Whitehall system that is not used to party had ever fought and there was ‘Well, that’s the ten-million- dealing with smaller parties, in an high morale and optimism around. dollar question. I don’t think poli- out for half electoral system that doesn’t recog- What I did feel in the final week ticians should ever really expect nise the support of smaller parties, was that it was as if the exam ques- people to vote for them out of a decade, as with a press that is indifferent at tion had changed, with the exam- gratitude, but the galling thing is best or implacably hostile at worst, iner replacing the question you are that there now seems to be far more a party that with far less money than our major answering with another quite dif- willingness to recognise our brave opponents and with no vested ferent question. We had started off contribution in government than was weak interest to defend us. So, when we with the fairly conventional right– there ever was before or during the came under pressure – like on tui- left argument between Tory and election itself.’ and had lost tion fees – we didn’t have voices Labour, to which we could present who answered back on our behalf. the Liberal Democrats as the plau- Hindsight its heart and sible alternative, but by the end it And 16,500 of those who had felt soul. This was Regrets had become an argument about fear the result was unfair to the Liberal Given what had happened to him – fear of Miliband and Alex Sal- Democrats had joined the party never true, and the party at the election, had he mond – which really got under the after the election? any regrets about having gone into English skin. That, combined with ‘Yes. Certainly from the press indeed quite coalition and, given the basinful the Nationalist fervour in Scotland, point of view there is a generosity of disappointments he had suffered had a dramatic effect that was very with hindsight, which I suppose is the opposite, over the five-year parliament, did much harder to counter.’ better late than never but it would he harbour any resentments about So what, before 7 May, had he have been more useful at the time. but it did the way the Tories had treated the privately thought the result might My view has long been – and I know Liberal Democrats? He thought be? ‘I expected a difficult night some people will say it was about huge damage long and hard. but I thought it would be perfectly this decision or that decision, about ‘I obviously turn over and over achievable to be in the mid-thirties tuition fees, the NHS or whatever so that, when and over what we could have done or on a good day hold more seats. – that in the long term ordinary differently … but I come back to That would have been quite a loss people don’t follow or make deci- people were what I said earlier. I think people but perhaps a reasonable one in the sions on every twist and turn in the make very, very big judgements … circumstances.’ Westminster village. They make big frightened as Surveying the rubble, I don’t hon- judgements about what is best for estly believe that tweaking here Incumbency them and their families and broad- they were on or there would have achieved very A lot of faith had been put into brush decisions about the political much for us. There was a funda- in the value of incumbency. That parties. What we had to contend 7 May, they mental judgement we had to make hadn’t happened, had it? with from the outset was that we didn’t want as to whether or not we should go ‘No, it didn’t and in our post were so remorselessly denigrated into coalition in 2010. Given the mortem we need to ask ourselves from right and left, day in day out to turn to a situation in the country then I can’t whether the power of incum- for half a decade, as a party that was imagine any circumstance in which bency was diminished because we weak and had lost its heart and soul. party that I would have recommended that were in coalition and/or because This was never true, indeed quite we didn’t. The country desperately of the huge amounts of money the opposite, but it did huge damage had been por- needed it. I cleaved to the view, not being spent by the Tories centrally so that, when people were fright- unreasonably I think, that in the on effectively parachuting tar- ened as they were on 7 May, they trayed in this end, if you are seen to do something geted campaigns into people’s liv- didn’t want to turn to a party that for the country that needed to be ing rooms. Some of the winning had been portrayed in this way.’ way. done you would get some reward

8 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers for it. That is clearly not the case Surveying because both were in the Labour Achievements but it wasn’t irrational to think so.’ Party’s 2010 manifesto. Where we If he had his time again would he He recalled similar disappoint- the rub- had been expecting them to take have played the coalition negotia- ment after the 2010 general elec- some sort of lead on both issues, tions differently in any way? No, tion, although not on such a large ble, I don’t they then refused to go along with he was clearly proud of the num- scale. At that time, many Liberal either, preferring to continue to ber of important Liberal Democrat Democrats felt aggrieved because, honestly snipe at the Liberal Democrats. policies that the Tories had been despite ‘Cleggmania’ and other persuaded to accept. He picked positive pointers to the contrary, believe that Resentments out a number of principles and key the party had lost seats when they ‘You asked me earlier whether I proposals from the 2010 Liberal had expected it to gain more. In tweaking felt resentful about the Tories in Democrat manifesto as examples that instance, the analysis of many here or there coalition. I don’t believe you can incorporated into legislation. party members had been that voters go into politics and hold grudges ‘It was clearly a remarkable ran away from the party because ‘it would have or resentments. Life is too short. achievement. What I think is a had no experience of government’. But, in the same way I was aston- different question is whether we After leaving the room to achieved ished by the behaviour of the could and should have presented take a telephone call he returned Tories during the AV referendum, the coalition and its policies in a clearly incensed by the memory of very much I was really dismayed by the way different way at the time, and I the failure of the 2011 AV referen- in which the Labour Party spent can accept there is a debate about dum, which he described as ‘the for us. There five years almost wilfully deni- that. You have got to remember second big moment’. As it hap- grating the Liberal Democrats at that the whole concept of coali- pened it was also the next subject I was a fun- every turn – and in the most loopy tion was very new to people at that wanted to raise. language, almost as if, accord- time and given the breathless media damental ing to Ed Miliband, we were some hysteria about the coalition that AV disaster kind of collaborators who had preceded the 2010 election I felt, Was the marked failure of the AV judgement committed some primeval sin. in that first year against a continu- referendum and the attempt to And yet those very same people are ing background of press vilification reform the House of Lords down to we had to now beginning to wake up to the and prediction of the coalition’s a matter of timing? reality of a majority Conservative early demise, we had to demon- ‘The timing made a very big make as to government that they had accused strate that it worked. I accept that difference. It would have been us of ‘propping up’, with some now after that we needed to differentiate much better if the referendum had whether even publicly recognising what we ourselves and in a speech I gave in been held later, but at the time or not we did and how much we restrained the National Liberal Club in 2011, there was a clamour of expecta- the Tories.’ after those disastrous local election tion that it would be held quickly should go On the five previous occasions results, I signalled that we would and almost an assumption that the I had interviewed Nick Clegg as now begin taking a more robust Liberal Democrats needed to do so into coali- party leader he had invariably approach.’ to prove their electoral virility and demonstrated a remarkable degree Despite all the frustrations he that if we hadn’t we would have tion in 2010. of resilience in the face of diffi- encountered, inside and outside betrayed every shred of our cred- culty but on this occasion some government, over those five years ibility on electoral reform. Clearly Given the bitter memories had clearly stayed he seemed to have managed to with hindsight we should not have with him. retain the loyalty of all his Liberal been stampeded into holding it in situation in Democrat ministers, of whom some the immediate wake of the high David Cameron – such as Steve Webb and Vincent point of the economic crisis and the the country In an attempt to introduce a more Cable – had remained in the same difficulties over tuition fees and the positive note I reminded him of office for the full parliament. How NHS but we were committed to it.’ then I can’t the good working relationship he had he managed that and, if he had And the Tories were pretty claimed he had had with David to pick the two Liberal Democrat unhelpful? ‘Unhelpful is putting it imagine any Cameron in the early years. Had policy contributions most likely to mildly. They were totally unscru- that relationship persisted?’ last, what would they be? pulous. It was a real low point. circumstance ‘It persisted throughout. Much ‘I am not a historian but when They not only deployed very spe- though I lament what happened you look at the history of the party, cious arguments against AV but in which I to us at the hands of the Conserva- when pressure has turned into dis- also went for the jugular person- would have tives at the election, I am not going aster that is when we have split. I ally. Cameron and Osborne could to rewrite history. In 2010 he was was determined that this should have stopped them but they chose recom- right to recognise the need for a not happen this time. I don’t think not to. That they would fight hard coalition. We both recognised what we now face a generational set- was no surprise, but their willing- mended that needed to be done for the coun- back and I do believe that, under ness to use the record of their own try and both of us tried to conduct a new leader, we will soon return government as an argument against we didn’t. ourselves in a grown up way. The to rude health. I like to think that reform was surprising even by their so-called mateyness of the Rose one of the reasons we haven’t split is standards. And don’t forget, on the Garden was never there. We both because I felt that, as leader, it was other side of the coin, how lamen- knew we had a job to do and we up to me to accept the criticisms, table the Labour Party was. We had just swallowed our pride and got on crossfire and the brickbats, to listen put AV and House of Lords reform with it. It would be graceless of me to colleagues and make quite sure in the coalition agreement in part now to pretend otherwise.’ on a regular basis that they knew

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 9 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers what I was doing and why I was One of the down and giving way to a much virtually swept everyone aside doing it. I also regarded many of more visceral form of identity and by the way has delivered this them as friends. reasons that politics about us and them, differ- utterly disproportionate result. ‘As for their achievements I ent tribes, different communities, And two, in the south there was a believe one of the most lasting will Liberalism is different nations: the antithesis of widespread reaction against that be Steve Webb’s reforms on pen- what Liberals believe. We don’t and a fear of a government consist- sions. I have told him that, if he struggling in believe that individuals should be ing of Labour and the Nationalists. wasn’t so infuriatingly modest, he defined by their tribe but liberated You can add to that the caricature would already have statues erected our country, to be what we want to be. perception that the Liberal Demo- to him around the country! But ‘So we are witnessing a creep- crats were weak and powerless to I am also very proud of what we as it is across ing transformation of British poli- stop it. That is why people decided have achieved for poorer children Europe, is tics where the categories we have to play it safe and, when it comes to in secondary and primary schools traditionally used in the dim and voting, the Conservative Party has with free childcare and the pupil that the old distant past no longer apply. Instead always been the safe party to turn premium. Of course there was the new politics you can see in to. Safety is what it stands for.’ also Danny Alexander’s tenure in distinctions movements like the SNP and other Finally I suggested that he had the Treasury and the delivery of resurgent movements in Europe are been very widely respected for the tax reform; Lynne Featherstone’s – between the politics that divide people one courage he had shown in taking work on equal marriage and inter- against another and vociferously the Liberal Democrats into coali- national aid; and the greater prior- right and promote the cause of one group tion and had been almost as widely ity for mental health that Norman rather than another. That is the respected for what he had done Lamb and I have been able to left, market very opposite of the tolerance, and since. Nevertheless he was leaving a achieve. There are many things.’ compassion, and evidence-based huge gap in the political spectrum, and state, approach taken by Liberal Demo- particularly over Europe. What Referendums crats. That is why Liberalism is was his greatest regret about the last And yet the UK still didn’t feel like bosses and increasingly under threat and ironi- five years? a more Liberal country, I suggested, cally also why it is most needed.’ ‘Exactly what we talked about citing as one example the increasing workers, the – that, despite the party provid- use of referendums instead of repre- A final reflection ing a huge service to the country at sentative democracy to solve issues. north and Four years ago he had high hopes a time of unprecedented post-war In the fifty years before 2010 we had that the Liberal Democrats would crisis, we were not able to convert had only four referendums – one the south, defy the experience of other minor- that into electoral success. It shows on Europe in 1975, one on inde- the private ity parties in coalition in Europe that doing the right thing does pendence for Scotland in 1979 and and emerge with credit at the end not always equate with doing the two on devolution to Scotland and sector and of its term. It had not happened, popular thing. I am only 48 and I Wales in 1997; yet there had been had it? The electors had opted for shall continue to enjoy being MP two in this parliament – AV and, the public majority party rule. In concluding, for Sheffield Hallam but I have also most notably, independence for I wanted to hear again his main rea- been lucky enough to be Deputy Scotland – and a third, on Europe, sector, etc. – son as to why not. Prime Minister. I have learned a lot was in prospect in 2017. The suc- ‘I think there were two main in the job. My only personal regret cessful ‘No’ vote in Scotland had are breaking reasons. One, north of the border, is that I won’t be able to make full triggered the biggest surge of was the Nationalist fervour that use of the experience!’ nationalism that the UK had ever down and seen and now there was a real dan- ger that the referendum planned giving way for 2017 could lead to the UK’s exit from Europe. This was not what I to a much Lord (Tom) McNally recognised as Liberal representa- Leader of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords 2005–13); Minister of State for tive democracy and yet it seemed more visceral Justice 2010–13 that was the way politics was going. How did it look to him? form of iden- How it looked to him then … He was now in his third eco- ‘I don’t think it is the mechanism (July 2011) nomic crisis, this time as a minis- of referendums that changes the tity politics Tom McNally was a young Labour ter of state under Kenneth Clarke. temper of a country – but what the about us and Party official when Harold Wil- ‘I told the prime minister that, if Scottish referendum, and possibly son’s government had to devalue he’d lined up his cabinet and asked also the European referendum, will them … the the pound in 1967. He ran Prime me who I would most like to work do is lift the lid on a very worrying Minister Jim Callaghan’s cabinet with, I would have said Ken. We trend, and that is the trend towards antithesis of office for three years from 1976, have known each other for forty identity politics. One of the reasons while the economy went into melt- years. He is sometimes described as that Liberalism is struggling in our what Liberals down and the country was saved a closet Liberal. He is not. He is an country, as it is across Europe, is from disaster by the formation of old-fashioned one-nation Tory.’ that the old distinctions – between believe. the Lib–Lab Pact and a bail out Clarke and McNally would right and left, market and state, from the IMF. He was a late con- seem to have been the ideal combi- bosses and workers, the north and vert to the SDP in 1981 and an early nation of party ‘big beasts’ to push the south, the private sector and the convert to merger with the Liberal through ‘liberal’ prison reform, public sector, etc. – are breaking Party in 1988. but they were disappointed that

10 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers many of their proposals had been thought the incumbent argument weakened by David Cameron. ‘We would see us through and I didn’t have had to make some concessions believe the exit poll. I also believe to the bang-them-up-and-throw- we ran a good campaign with the away-the-key lobby, but the central right messages and that Nick Clegg thrust of the legislation is still there was an outstanding candidate.’ – a rehabilitation agenda to tackle In support of his own com- some fundamental issues of a very mitment to going into coalition, large prison population, over half he cited a ‘marvellous quote from of whom reoffend. Machiavelli’ – ‘The prince who ‘But it’s very difficult to battle walks away from power walks against popular press hysteria about away from the power to do good.’ any kind of reform, never facing up He saw himself as still in politics to to the fact that putting more peo- do good. ‘You can’t pick and choose ple in prison for longer and longer when you get power, and you is very costly and self-defeating. can’t choose how you get power. I We are going to try and reform remain absolutely convinced that in the prison system so prisoners get 2010 we were right to step up to the more education, training and work. plate in a national crisis. We are going to do more for drug ‘I don’t think it will take too dependents and the problem of long for people to start fully appre- drugs in prison. We are going to ciating just what an effect we had look at post-prison support.’ on the Conservatives in preventing Nevertheless, the 50 per cent some of their nastier ideas.’ sentence discount for early guilty He and Shirley Williams were pleading went, some sentences the only two Liberal Democrats Tory ministers like him? ‘No. becoming longer or mandatory, and with previous experience in a gov- He was the last of a generation.’ the bill even gained the approval of ernment required to work with They had worked well together Michael Howard. The end of any another party. How had the recent and introduced a number of lib- prospect of real liberal reform? Con–Lib Dem coalition compared eral penal reforms but also a con- ‘No. The 50 per cent discount in effectiveness with that of the troversial cut in legal aid which, in would have reduced the need for Lib–Lab Pact of 1976–78? retrospect, he regretted as ‘one of victims to testify and saved court ‘It was infinitely more effective, a number of mistakes the coalition costs but a number of judges and in that the junior partner had real made in those early days.’ penal reformers thought it was too influence and was better prepared But its financial approach was generous. So the one-third dis- than the Liberal Party of ’76, but I not another of them. He had learnt count remains. The big gain is the also don’t resile from the fact that his lesson on that in the 1974–79 intention to end indeterminate ’76–78 was also an effective period Labour government. ‘In those early sentencing. of government in which the Liberal days I told Nick Clegg and David ‘I hope that at the end of this Party restrained some of the more Cameron that in ’74 Labour had parliament we shall be able to say loony tunes in the Labour Party.’ not faced up to the enormity of the that having Liberal Democrats in But at the end of it the Lib- crisis and that, if we were going to government has meant that, for eral Party suffered a similar drop do so now, they shouldn’t make the the first time in thirty years, issues in its vote? Wasn’t that a parallel? same mistake. They had to go hard, in the criminal justice system have ‘Yes but it was not as bad. And, if fast and deep. I think the Keynes- been looked at in a different, more you are going to be prepared to ians now being wise are wrong. It humane and civilised way, and that take part in government, experi- had to be done.’ has produced results.’ ence across Europe shows that the McNally has wide experience of minority party will not necessarily communication and the media. The get much credit.’ initial press hostility to the idea of … and how it looks now (12 But what did the Liberal Demo- coalition and the subsequent cyni- May 2015) crats do wrong in the last five years cism about it was drummed into the Within seconds Tom McNally was to get so little of the credit that was public over the five years, even if telling me that a month before the going? ‘Whether we can find the predictions of its collapse died down. election he had predicted that the alchemy to be in government, share Why did that never get better? Tories would get at least 35 per responsibility as a junior partner and ‘Partly because papers such as cent of the vote and 320 seats or get the credit I am not sure. I was The Guardian, which could have more and that Labour would get always against open warfare. I think been helpful, refused to be; and 30 per cent and around 220 seats. people will look back at the coali- partly because the media have ‘Because of the 8 per cent poll rat- tion government as one of the more always preferred biff-baff between ing, I expected Liberal Democrat cohesive and collegiate governments two parties to multi-party politics. losses – but what I got completely and the fact that we were punished ‘If I had to give advice now wrong was that I thought the Lib- for it doesn’t take away its merits.’ to Nick Clegg’s successor …’. He eral Democrats and the SNP would We turned back to his time as paused. ‘He did tend to cut himself each get between thirty and thirty- Minister of State for Justice under off from what had gone before. In a five seats. Like Paddy Ashdown, I Ken Clarke. Were there any other way he had to learn his Liberalism.

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 11 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers

I don’t think he had any historic ‘A combination of all three. The third issue the party under- feeling for the party although he There is no doubt that tuition fees estimated was the weakening of the was a fast learner. Only once, for remained in a totemic way a sign of local government base. ‘We lost so example, did he assemble former our betrayal. We could have pre- much through that.’ leaders around the same table … it sented the argument more robustly. Did these results mean that the was very difficult to find experi- Here was a policy initiated by the whole concept of coalition, includ- enced people around him. I think Labour Party, followed by the even ing possibly the future prospect for the Lib Dems in government were more draconian Browne report, PR, was tarnished by the return of weak on communication.’ which was supported by both one-party government? If so, what Ken Clarke was sidelined as a Labour and the Conservatives and was the future for a party of eight minister in 2012 and Tom McNally which we made more massively or, to put it another way, what was decided to resign in 2013. Was that more supportive of poorer stu- the party now for? because of what they were trying to dents, and yet we took all the stick ‘The Liberal Democrats are a do or for some other rearrangement because of the £9,000. It was toxic party of government. They now reason? and I suspect it will remain with us have the opportunity to re-estab- ‘Oh no, the problem with Ken for a long time. lish themselves as a left-of-centre was that Tory polling showed NHS funding would always be party of conscience and reform, but Labour policies were being seen a difficult problem for all parties, they should not start apologising as increasingly close to ours. I and the debate had debilitated the for the coalition. I believe it will remember Chris Grayling [Clarke’s Liberal Democrats, but he added not be long before the contribution successor] saying quite frankly ‘I think if you got David Cameron of the Lib Dems to good govern- that, although he was no swivel- alone he would say he made a mis- ment will become more recognised eyed right-winger, he had been take in letting Andrew Lansley and that we will make a remarkably brought in to buff up the Conserv- get on with his package for several quick recovery at local level and in atives as the party of law and order. years.’ the next European elections.’ He wanted to outflank the Labour Party and it is a long time since they have stood up for any civilised I don’t think legal reform.’ Had the five-year parliament that the Sir Nick Harvey worked and would it continue? Minister of State for the Armed Forces 2010–12; MP for North Devon 1992–2015 ‘The Tories won’t be in a hurry to simple deci- change it. The alternative in the last How it looked to him then … ‘We do have forces fit for pur- five years would have been constant sion to go (July 2011) pose but there is a debate about instability and speculation about into coali- Many people who knew Nick Har- what that purpose might be. When disagreements and imminent new vey before he became MP nearly we conducted the strategic defence elections. Why would they want tion made twenty years ago, remember him review last year, we were invited to that this time? This is a government as being on the more radical wing choose between three different pos- with a majority of just twelve.’ this inevita- of the party. Did he still see himself tures: ‘Vigilant’, which effectively The Liberal Democrats are left that way? would have meant drawing back with only eight MPs but there are ble at all but ‘More or less, yes. What you within our own homeland; ‘Com- still around 100 peers in the Lords. might call the ‘Orange Book wing’ mitted’ which would mean ramp- What effect would they have? I do think wasn’t there years ago and perhaps ing up internationally and trying to ‘If we are “the last men stand- gives us a different reference point, sustain a completely comprehensive ing”, as it were, we have a duty and that pretty but I think I still come from the British force; or ‘Adaptable’ – the responsibility to put forward Lib- same bit of the jungle. I was never option we chose – which was to eral values in a strong and coher- well every- an out and out hardliner but, yes, I maximise flexibility and the abil- ent way – on issues like the Human think I am still a quiet radical. ity to do certain things, even if we Rights Act and emasculation of thing that ‘The decisions I have to grap- would usually have to rely on oth- the BBC and defence of European ple with now are not all that party ers to act with us.’ membership. There will be a real happened political. There isn’t a huge divide. So, even after all these years, Liberal agenda to be defended and Obviously we disagree on Trident, did Britain still see itself as a world the House of Lords must be the thereafter and there were huge disagreements policeman? ‘I don’t think we are place to do it. The Tories’ savaging on Iraq but that is not current busi- a world policeman, but we are of Lords reform has come back to contributed ness. Different perspectives on prepared to take on constabulary bite them. They will no longer have to it. To say Europe also surface from time tasks,’ said Nick. This did not, in his an automatic majority.’ to time but … reluctantly we all view, include going into Syria or Looking back over the five years that it was accepted that cuts had to be made.’ any other Middle Eastern country of coalition, what in the end had He talked regularly with Liam where there had been no regional or been most damaging to the Liberal bungled Fox and, as the only minister of UN call for Britain to do so. Democrats in the election – the fact state in the department, quite often The decision to make no deci- of going into coalition with the would be a found himself deputising for him. sion on the replacement of Trident Tories originally, tuition fees and With more cuts still being made, until after the next general elec- NHS reform, or the failure of the gross under- were Britain’s armed forces ‘fit for tion was in the coalition agreement. party to communicate its successes purpose’ and, if so, what was that Nick Harvey has never favoured a effectively? statement. purpose? like-for-like replacement but did

12 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers the ‘no decision now’ decision make conceding things to them that we Conservatives when they were it more, or less, difficult to budget? never should have done.’ doing things we didn’t like. We ‘At this stage neither. The ulti- For instance? ‘I still don’t under- allowed business as usual far too mate cost will fall within the stand how, having fought the much and we got carried along. defence budget but the big expend- election basically agreeing with On student fees we should have iture, if we were to replace with a Labour’s view of the economy, we seen that was going to be politi- like-for-like, would not start until so easily backed the Tory view of cally disastrous. Other than that I 2016. However that means the mil- the economy and set about going do believe Lib Dem ministers genu- itary community must soon start along with those draconian cuts inely did do good things, and that to debate the opportunity cost of of 2010 with quite such relish. The we did stop a lot of things, but we putting all the money into a system tuition fees saga, nuclear energy, also let too much through.’ that theologically is there not to you name them, we seem to have We turned back to his time as a be used.’ conceded on all these issues in that minister and his working relation- period of the pink hue of the Rose ship with his very right-of-centre Garden. That was a terrible mis- secretary of state, Liam Fox. How … and how it looks now (13 take. At the tail end of the parlia- had the ‘radical’ Nick Harvey May 2015) ment, so desperate were we to show squared that, particularly over cuts It was Nick Harvey’s last day in his clear water between the Liberal and issues like the bombing of Libya? imposingly comfortable parliamen- Democrats and the Conservatives, ‘It was uncomfortable but, aside tary office on the fifth floor of Port- we ended up looking rather petu- from Trident and European defence cullis House. He was surrounded lant and childish, and that did us no cooperation, there weren’t gaping by boxes and piles of paper but he good either. We so misadvised our- chasms between us. Neither Fox nor was kind enough to see me face to selves about achieving great things Philip Hammond were easy to deal face because the next day he would on some of our own policies that with, although I had a perfectly rea- be back in Devon, leaving London we were far too willing to give way sonable relationship with both. On behind. on other issues.’ Libya, surprisingly, Liam Fox was He accepted my commisera- Not even achieving on the econ- far from enthusiastic about it, nor tions very graciously before we omy? He paused. ‘… We raised the indeed were most of the senior staff got down to business. Had he ever tax threshold. That was good but at the Ministry of Defence. He was expected his or the Liberal Demo- the Tories claimed it for themselves one of the most dove-ish members crats’ national results to turn out and I am not convinced that we of the cabinet on the issue. The deci- the way they did? got any credit for it. The European sion was taken in Downing Street ‘I had realised from our poll ministers with experience of vari- after pressure from Sarkosy.’ standing that the election would ous coalitions who came to talk to Was the MOD usually hawkish be difficult and the thought that I us in the autumn of 2010 all said “If in its views, particularly on cuts? might lose narrowly had occurred you are in coalition and you don’t ‘No, less so than one might think. to me but I had been swept along agree with something, don’t agree The calibre there is very high. They with the general feeling in the party to it.” It was all too late by then understood the need for cuts, and that incumbency might protect so, if the upshot of the recipe I am had already accepted the 2010 stra- thirty or so of us and that I had a offering is a government that does tegic review which set out cuts in pretty good chance of being one of less, I think that would be a good the immediate term, but there was them. We had managed to convince thing. Governments try to do far the pollsters and most of the media too much. It would have forced accordingly. I never anticipated more devolution and less central the tsunami that hit us. Perhaps we government.’ should have done.’ So the coalition had not been Was it the going into coalition a success? ‘I don’t think the coali- with the Tories, a particular issue or tion was a success. If I had been group of issues, or the party’s fail- elected, I had imagined going to a ure to communicate its successes pretty bloody meeting last Satur- that most undermined Liberal day [9 May 2015] where Nick and his Democrat support on 7 May? team would be trying to propel us ‘I don’t think that the simple into another coalition of some sort decision to go into coalition made and where there would have been a this inevitable at all but I do think number of MPs, including myself, that pretty well everything that saying “Not on your nelly!” There happened thereafter contributed to would then have been further dif- it. To say that it was bungled would ficulties with some of the peers and be a gross understatement.’ the Federal Executive before it even Did he say ‘gross’, I wondered? got to a special conference. That Yes, he did. ‘Profound mistakes would have been so whichever party were made. The relationship was being talked to, but the results with the Conservatives was all made all those decisions irrelevant.’ wrong. We nuzzled up to them So what would he have done far too closely, sending out all the differently? ‘I would have been far wrong messages on so many issues, more willing to say “No” to the

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 13 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers always the understanding that they decided they found this unprec- would be restored by 2020.’ edented choice of parties on offer Under Fox, Nick Harvey had too confusing and they just wanted been given ‘the dirty jobs, like tricky one majority party to get on with bouts with Jeremy Paxman and oth- it, and that party had to be the ers, but Philip Hammond always Conservatives? wanted to do everything himself’. ‘That could very well be.’ So, after a year of ‘media blackout’ So did that mean coalition was as he put it, he was sidelined from his rejected for the future? If so, where job in a Clegg reshuffle. did that leave the future for PR Looking back had he and other and for the Liberal Democrats? ‘I Liberal Democrat ministers been don’t think people will be giving fully able to be themselves in gov- much thought to PR. The Tories ernment, or had they always felt will clearly not be for it, and once subservient to the Conservatives? Labour have a new leader they ‘You might get a different perspec- won’t be either, But I was quite tive from people like Vince [Cable] interested in [Green MP] Caro- or Ed Davey. Never underesti- line Lucas’s suggestion that, in the mate the power of a secretary of absence of PR, the progressive par- state, but the truth is we were never ties should be considering some really able to be ourselves. We were kind of electoral pact. I realise that just part of the realpolitik.’ some people would have the hee- Had the media and the public bie-jeebies about that but we now ever really understood what coali- have a hell of a mountain to climb tion was about? ‘Not really. I can’t and a hell of a lot of candidates to tell you how many people said to find. It may be that some division the parliament’s total revenues. So me that they couldn’t understand of seats between Labour, Lib Dem we are adding financial account- why we went in with the Tories – and Green is something we should ability as well devolving spending and then, quite illogically it seemed consider.’ powers, while retaining Scotland to me, they said they were going to A radical suggestion but possibly within the UK.’ vote Conservative.’ not one that would be popular with What would he like to do to Perhaps, I suggested, that was Liberal Democrats. improve attitudes and banking because the majority of electors practices to the benefit of Scotland? ‘There was clearly something very badly broken about the exist- ing banking arrangements but we have now set out a pretty rigor- Michael Moore ous set of proposals on the bonus Secretary of State for Scotland 2010–13; MP for Tweeddale, Ettrick & Lauderdale issue, taxation and codes of con- 1997–2005, Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk 2005–15 duct, which I think will tackle some of the worst excesses. What I Scotland then … (March 2011) discussion, not just to Scottish have been at pains to do alongside His principal responsibility at the issues. He described the cabinet that is to highlight the importance time was to develop and pilot the meetings as ‘focused and contribu- of the financial services sector to Scotland bill through parliament tory to the development of policy’ Scotland. It provides thousands of and its committees. and he praised the chairmanship Scottish jobs and we want to see it ‘It’s demanding and very of David Cameron. ‘He encour- continue to prosper and grow. rewarding,’ he says. ‘We have a ages discussion. He listens. It’s an ‘As you would expect, Alex relatively small set up here, primar- important place for information Salmond and I have had various ily for administering elections and sharing. Of course a lot of the other forms of communication over the overseeing the constitutional settle- significant work is done in cabinet Scotland bill, one to one, by cor- ment, but now we have this crucial sub-committees. respondence and through the press. bill which has had to go through ‘Without the pressure exercised Clearly we are not looking to sat- every development and consulta- by Nick Clegg and Danny Alex- isfy a Nationalist agenda but despite tion processes both here and in the ander in negotiating the coalition his criticism of our proposals he Scottish parliament. agreement there would have been has yet to produce an alternative ‘I spend as much time as I can no firm commitment to legislate plan of his own. The three parties talking to cabinet colleagues about the Scotland bill, but it was clear in the Scottish parliament therefore this and all the other issues that that it needed additional pressure had no difficulty in supporting our affect Scotland. Chris Huhne’s deci- from me to persuade the Treasury view rather than theirs.’ sions on energy and climate change to devolve the right to raise half are particularly important to us, as of Scotland’s income tax revenue. are Vince’s on business and skills.’ That is huge. It is 15 per cent of the … and Scotland now (22 May The Scottish Secretary is a full whole Scottish budget. Add it to 2015) member of the cabinet with the other existing tax-raising powers Like Nick Harvey, who had recap- right to contribute to every cabinet and it comes close to one-third of tured and held former Liberal leader

14 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers

Jeremy Thorpe’s old seat for twenty- that there would be a referendum, voted against it. Should we have three years, for eighteen years we earned the right to be more firm come up with a different policy? Michael Moore had won the seat about the powers that would be Well …’ formerly held by David Steel. Now devolved. It took a few months of ‘The other two things that both were among the many Lib- persuasion but we retained control became part of the anti-govern- eral Democrat losers, and Michael of the process.’ ment motif in Scotland against us Moore, like Nick Harvey, was sadly Michael Moore stood down as were around welfare reform – the dismantling his life. ‘It’s a mixture Secretary of State for Scotland in bedroom tax and sanctions. I got of grisly tasks like making everyone the autumn of 2012, but not until very fed up with the simplistic jus- redundant, including my wife, and the Edinburgh Agreement – about tification going around that were hearing about some people just not There was the handling of the single-question one million over-occupied houses going out because they are so upset, referendum – had been settled with in the country and one million but I am not quite doing that.’ a residual Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. under-occupied and that somehow What did he think most con- anger about ‘I just couldn’t see how anything people should be moved from one tributed to the disastrous results other than a single question ref- to the other. That might have made – going into coalition with the the coali- erendum had any chance of being an interesting challenge in a public Conservatives, the rise of the SNP accepted if it went the wrong way debate, but as beginning, middle or other issues? tion across for Scotland.’ And yet, when the and end of a policy it was bloody ‘All the above. There was a referendum was actually held and hopeless. And as for sanctions, a residual anger about the coali- the country, lost by the Yes campaign, the result commercial banker I know, of all tion across the country, compli- seemed to light the touch paper people, summarised my feelings cated by the rise of the Scots Nats complicated of a further surge in SNP support very well: “How can we live in a particularly affecting our Scot- which carried through to 7 May. society where we can coerce people tish seats. That played as much by the rise Why was that? into work by starving them?”’ against the Labour Party as against ‘I am happy to join you in the I suggested the election result us but, as Vince Cable confirmed of the Scots luxury of the benefit of hindsight might mean that the whole concept when I spoke to him in Twicken- but, if you had made that statement of coalition between parties in the ham not long before polling day, it Nats … That the day before the referendum, you UK was now rejected by the elec- also began to play on the Lib Dem would not have found one person in torate and possibly permanently and Tory wavering vote south of played as the country who thought that was tarnished? He admitted that the the border. I knew my fate before going to happen as a result. Part Liberal Democrats, having been in I went to my count but watching much against of the reason it did was because, coalition with Labour during the the English results and people like unlike the Unionists who split first four years of the Scottish par- Vince and David Laws falling I the Labour apart after the campaign and went liament, had lost seats at subsequent thought “This is terrible.” ’ Party as their own ways, the SNP carried elections but that he had wrongly In 2011, when we had last on campaigning, managing to keep predicted the result of every sin- talked, he was Secretary of State against us under their banner all those dif- gle national election he had ever for Scotland, heavily involved with ferent tribes and sub-factions that fought. Despite the difficulties processing the new Scotland bill but, as Vince make up Nationalism.’ encountered he saw a future for and setting up the coming referen- Lack of counter-campaigning coalition and a further fragmenta- dum. Given the subsequent explo- Cable con- might have been a factor, but surely tion of the parties. sion of SNP support, had he any coalition policies and attitudes had A referendum on Europe was regrets about the powers the bill firmed when been more responsible for creat- coming in 2017. The SNP wanted had devolved or the posing of a sin- ing that support? ‘On the one hand Scotland to remain in Europe. If gle question referendum? I spoke to there was the economy and the there was a joint cross-party cam- ‘I am as relaxed today about mess we inherited. The austerity paign for a Yes would he be happy what we did as I was at the time. him in Twick- measures that were so necessary to to see the SNP being part of it? ‘Of We cannot get away from the fact get us back on some kind of even course I would. All of us who want that the SNP already had a man- enham not keel made us very easy targets. The to see the country remain in Europe date. They had won a majority in second part was in that in doing should be seeking common cause.’ the Scottish parliament. If the par- long before that we got some things horribly But did he see Labour or the Tories ties in Westminster had chosen to wrong, for instance tuition fees. seeking common cause with the be obstructive and ignore that, and polling day, We knew that before we did it. SNP? He wasn’t sure but he very not granted a referendum, I am in Nick said to us cabinet ministers at much hoped they would because he absolutely no doubt that Scotland it also began one of our Monday meetings that believed that if the Yes campaign would have organised its own refer- to play on Vince was in charge of the policy was fractured it could easily fail. endum and by now Scotland would and that he [Nick] was “not going Looking to the future for the be on course for independence.’ the Lib Dem to exercise his opt out as deputy Liberal Democrats now that they Had he met with obstruction prime minister because he deserves were electorally on the floor, what from Downing Street and other and Tory my support”, so it kind of cascaded lessons did he think they should Tories to stop what he was doing? from there. The cabinet ministers learn from the experiences of the ‘Some of the Tories were very wavering went along with that, as did all the last five years? ‘That the campaign- gung-ho against the SNP and, of other ministers and before long you ing has to be on a permanent foot- course, Salmond was pushing for vote south of had nearly a third of the parliamen- ing. That should be one lesson for everything from the beginning. tary party in support. In the end us. We need to know our own But by being generous in agreeing the border. another third abstained and a third minds, maintain our identity and

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 15 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers have the policies that match what ‘There will always be a need for accordingly. Year on year pensions we believe. If it is a choice between a Liberal voice. You only have to will rise above inflation.’ Norman Lamb and Tim Farron look at what the Tories are doing Steve Webb was also involved in for the leadership that will happen already on human rights, Europe other decisions of the department because they are both good Liberals and welfare to know that we will such as benefits. ‘The difficult job and good campaigners.’ be needed. Even The Guardian now of finding savings, followed by the We closed with a brief discus- claims to recognise that! But per- The big comprehensive spending review, sion as to whether the British public haps we will need to wait half a did bind us together but it is also and the media would ever learn to generation or even a whole gen- crunch points understood that as the only Lib- appreciate minority party involve- eration until we are all minority eral Democrat in the village I have ment in coalition. If they didn’t, parties and somebody finally rec- were the a special role. I see IDS’s special what would be the future for the ognises that PR is the only way we advisers once a week and I also have Liberal Democrats as an effective are going to have a fair reflection of emergency to report back to our own parlia- force in politics? politics in parliament.’ budget of mentary party.’ 2010 and the … and how it looks now (22 first com- May 2015) Steve Webb Steve Webb was the only Lib- Minister of State for Work and Pensions 2010–15; MP for Northavon 1997–2010, prehensive eral Democrat minister of state to Thornbury & Yate 2010–15 remain in the same post for the full spending five years. He is also the longest How it looked to him then … to recognise that working lives serving Minister for Pensions ever. (May 2011) will have to be longer. Partly that’s review that In the thirteen years that preceded Against the background of the AV about reducing the numbers stop- him there had been ten different campaign and disappointing local ping work well before pension followed … ministers. So, although he deeply election results, did he believe age, by making it easier to work regrets the loss of his seat, he is ‘not that the compromises required beyond, and by outlawing the the worst yet embittered’ because he retains of coalition could still be made practice of making people redun- the satisfaction of having achieved to work positively for the Liberal dant when they get to 65, but it is time of year change and improvement in office Democrats? mainly about the pension age itself. while also earning, he believes, the ‘Yes. Remember what the alter- It would rise to 65 for women by was pre- respect of the pensions industry. native is, and was: almost certainly 2018 and 66 for men and women in Had he seriously expected what Tory majority rule. Clearly this 2020, probably to be followed by a conference had happened? ‘No, I didn’t. If I coalition is a big improvement but further rise and a reduction in the when George thought people had spent four weeks we have just got to demonstrate qualifying period for a full state lying to us I think I would have been that better. pension to thirty years. Osborne, and rather cross but I don’t think they ‘Half the problem is the pub- ‘We want to ensure that peo- did. There were straws in the wind lic’s apparent inability to under- ple also have an income from pri- it was always of what swung them in the end like stand what coalition is about, They vate sources, so from next year, the SNP and fear of Miliband and expected the Tories to do what they with the help of a number of large George we are saw some fragmenting of do, they did not expect the Liberal and smaller companies, we shall be our vote to Labour and the Greens Democrats to do the same thing. enrolling into workplace pensions Osborne, but afterwards I had a number of ‘After seventy years of major- schemes around ten million peo- them say to me that they would ity rule they are just not used to the ple who don’t currently have them. would come never have done it if they thought idea of nobody having a mandate, They will put in a small contribu- the Tories were going to win.’ He and it will affect the way future tion, initially just 1 per cent of sal- up with some also believed that some previous Lib election campaigns are conducted. ary and, rising to 3 per cent, so will Dem voters had voted Conserva- People will legitimately ask more the company and the taxpayer.’ new populist tive because they wanted the coali- questions about priorities if there Compulsory enrolment? ‘Yes, tion but ‘they couldn’t vote Lib Dem were to be no majority. Elections but with the freedom to opt out. welfare cut. because they didn’t like Miliband’. will become more about values and We shall return every three years So the fact of being in coalition less about shopping lists of policies. to all who have, to try and persuade In the end was not the principal reason for Policies change but values don’t.’ them to rejoin. So, if we can get the catastrophic results? ‘Only par- In his ministerial patch he was millions more people saving that we would tially. My view, and I think it prob- pleased with the way the state pen- will be all the better for their old trade nasty ably applies elsewhere too, is that sion reform was going, describing age, and will help affordability.’ there was a set of Tories prepared its future structure as clearly hav- Meanwhile the coalition stand Tory stuff for to vote Lib Dem in 2001 and 2005 ing Lib Dem roots. ‘It’s akin to a on the Liberal Democrat ‘triple because they did not see Tony Blair citizen’s pension, it’s flat rate and it’s lock’ commitment to an earnings nice Lib Dem as too horrific and the future gov- above the poverty line, so I am very link for pensions was ‘delivered’. ernment of the country was clearly proud to have helped to get it to the ‘The “triple lock” means that from stuff to talk not at stake. In 2010 they began to starting gate.’ now we look at the increase in earn- drift away because they didn’t want But, how was an adequate state ings, consumer prices and 2.5 per about at our Gordon Brown and in 2015 they pension for all going to be afford- cent. We take the biggest number definitely didn’t want Ed Miliband. able? ‘First we are going to have of those three and raise the pension conference. That has got little to do with being

16 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers

credited for that? ‘Probably not. In future of pensions, which came to the pensions world perhaps but I was the inclusion that ‘opt in’ was not not a Secretary of State … When going to work. Legislation for the I won the Spectator Minister of the first ‘opt out’ scheme went through Year award last year, someone wrote in the last government. What we on Facebook “Who?” ’ did was improve it and in its pre- He had worked under Iain Dun- sent form it has been a stunning can-Smith for his five years. Ideo- success. Over the five years, five logically they must have been very million people joined the scheme different and yet the good working and 90 per cent of participants have relationship he had claimed they stayed with it, the majority from had in 2011 appeared to have sur- the younger age groups.’ vived well. How was that? He was Pension annuity reform and the effusive. right to take lump sums had been ‘Partly because he is a gracious, another policy implemented under generous and loyal man and partly Steve Webb. ‘It was a genuine coa- because he was particularly inter- lition move with a strong Liberal ested in welfare and not particu- approach. Labour would never have larly interested in pensions and I done it. We needed to guarantee the was probably more the other way state pension first, which we did, round. He was interested in reform, but I had been banging on about not just cuts, although they had to annuities for a long time and even- be made – reforms that would give tually the Treasury moved. No, we extra money to poor people. If I looked into the notion that every- had had to work under a slash-and- one might blow all their money in in coalition. Indeed I had quite a lot burn minister, I would have been one go. For tax reasons we doubted of people telling me that they liked gone within six months. As long as that that is going to happen. The the coalition and also what I was IDS felt comfortable with what I people we are talking about are doing in Pensions. was doing he increasingly trusted clearly more frugal than that.’ ‘Where the coalition had an me to get on with it.’ If the election results had been effect was in the fragmentation of There had been no quid pro different he would have been part the anti-Tory vote. That is when quo between himself and Duncan- of the team negotiating any coali- the ‘broken promises’, tuition Smith in swopping tricky pension tion agreement that might have fees and so on began to count. For concessions for tricky benefit con- arisen. Would he have been whole- example, I had a Green standing cessions. He clearly felt that most of hearted about striking a new deal against me for the first time. The the ‘nasty’ decisions about welfare and would he have been willing to coalition was in favour of frack- cuts had originated with George be part of it? ing. If we had been in opposition Osborne rather than Iain Duncan- ‘In principle yes I would but, we would probably not have been, Smith. So how much had he him- because we would probably have but I had to argue for it. The Green self been involved with welfare been a smaller party, we would took away a vital 1,500 of my votes.’ decisions in Work and Pensions? have wanted to exact a pretty big When we met in 2011 he had ‘The big crunch points were price. A few policies here and there warned of the difficulties of com- the emergency budget of 2010 and would not have been enough. We municating how coalition worked the first comprehensive spend- would have wanted something that and the Lib Dem contribution to it. ing review that followed. IDS was made people go ‘Woo’ and that Did the average elector ever man- keen that all of us in his depart- might have been a tough ask but, if age to absorb what was Lib Dem ment should be on board at that we had come up with something, I policy and what was not, and did it early stage. To that extent I was would have been up for it.’ actually matter? involved, but the worst time of year And what would have been his ‘At the margins. A few people was pre-conference when George personal priorities in any negotia- knew that we “did the tax spend”. Osborne, and it was always George tion? ‘The front of our manifesto And quite a few people told me Osborne, would come up with might not have been entirely my afterwards that they thought we some new populist welfare cut. In choice of issues but that would have had been unfairly treated, so there the end we would trade nasty Tory had to be our starting point. I think, was some recognition that we had stuff for nice Lib Dem stuff to talk for me, the Tory idea that you can done the mature thing and moder- about at our conference.’ ask people down the scale to pay the ated the Tories. But beyond that How comfortable had he felt price of £12 billion worth of wel- … It didn’t matter a huge amount. about asking some companies in fare cuts while not asking the rich There were still things we had to effect to subsidise the state pension to pay any more in tax would have support that we didn’t like.’ by implementing a private, com- been one of my red lines.’ In his own patch at Pensions, pulsory top-up scheme for young In summary he believed the he had managed to achieve Tory employees which they could later coalition had worked and that it acceptance of quite a number of Lib opt out of if they wished to? was right to go into it but he also Dem reforms such as the ‘triple lock’ ‘This was a policy with a fif- believed that the turnaround on that had become government policy. teen-year genesis that included tuition fees had considerably dam- Had he or the party been sufficiently Adair Turner’s commission into the aged trust in the party. So how did

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 17 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers he now see the future for the Lib- voice. The difficulty for us is the eral Democrats? scale of the defeat. We are no longer ‘We had a very nice note from second in a lot of places and in some David Steel remembering the days not even third. We will need time.’ “when there were six of us”. How much time, I wondered? ‘As a party we do know what ‘In the past it might have been dec- it is like to have a rough time. We ades but people are now much more do have good principles and we are volatile and tribal than they were, community campaigners. There so you have to hope that you can will always be a need for a Liberal catch the public mood.’

Paul Burstow Minister of State for Health 2010–12; MP for Sutton & Cheam 1997–2015

How it looked to him then … policy of any willing provider. (May 2011) Also we had a very clear view Now playing a key role in the that we wanted to see more front- development of that service most line autonomy and devolution to dear to every elector’s heart, frontline staff so the idea that, as the National Health Service, he long-term devolutionists and advo- remained remarkably calm about cates of reform, Liberal Democrats his year to date. The storm of pro- should feel uncomfortable with that test over the NHS did not quite I think would be surprising.’ ‘A combination of reasons. match that over tuition fees, but But in the event things had not Partly due to the scale and intensity why had Secretary of State Andrew quite turned out as planned. ‘What of the Conservative campaign: they Lansley’s original proposals come became clear was that in the detail were massively better resourced in for relatively little critical com- of the bill there were concerns and spent even more in Sutton ment from Paul Burstow or Nick about the drafting of the competi- than they did in Carshalton. But Clegg when they were originally tion proposals and their implemen- also the fact that our party cam- published in 2010?’ tation. There was a strong view paign was positioned as part of the ‘There was actually at the time that we had allowed competition to same question that the Conserva- remarkable unanimity about the become a goal in itself rather than tives were asking. They were say- principles in the White Paper: the a means to an end in the interests ing “Who should run the country?” idea that we should seek to ensure of patients. I think what Nick and based on the message “Be afraid of that the NHS really did place I have managed to get put into the Ed Miliband and the SNP”, while patients and carers at its heart, in legislation has rebalanced that and we were saying that we would be deciding not just about their own put it right.’ the moderating force. That gave care but also about how the system Had the Liberal Democrat inter- people enough reason to vote ran; the idea that we needed to see vention at the spring conference Conservative.’ more autonomy so that frontline helped to improve the bill, and if so, Was he then saying that there staff could exercise clinical judg- how? ‘The motion I actually tabled was an electoral disadvantage in ments and make decisions about provided the opportunity for mem- claiming to be the moderating how best to develop services to bers to have their say and the lead- force? ‘It reinforced the Tory nar- meet local needs; the idea that we ership accepted the amendments. rative that you had to vote for should devolve more power in the That is how it happened although them in order to avoid having system so that there would be more already in the mythology of the chaos. In other words it was not integration across health and social party that is beginning to be for- a counter to the Tory narrative; care; or, indeed, the idea that we gotten. It gave Nick his mandate, it played to it and the response could have any qualified provider as it were, to go back and negotiate on the doorsteps was that people providing services. That was in our changes.’ kept saying they had to think of own manifesto. So there was a good the national picture. We may have deal of unanimity. fought the best campaign locally ‘The difficulties arose, when the … and how it looks now (26 that we have ever fought, but we bill set out the proposals in detail.’ May 2015) had been heavily outspent and Was he happy, for example, with Once again I was sadly talking to in the end we could not fight the the idea that the management of a Liberal Democrat who had been Tory tsunami.’ general practice should be in the expected by most people to retain Looking back to his long history hands of GPs and that there should his seat but then didn’t. In ‘fortress of successfully fighting the Tories be more competition in the provi- Sutton’, that long-standing bastion in Sutton had he been concerned or sion of services? of Liberalism in London, Tom Brake content about the 2010 agreement ‘As a party we had just fought had survived in Carshalton but in to go into coalition with the Tories, a general election on a clear mani- the other constituency Paul Burstow and how happy was he to be part of festo commitment to extend the had been defeated. Why was that? it as a minister?’

18 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers

‘My answer to that is that I don’t of quarters. Did he feel that he had likely to have. My personal view know what the counterfactual been able to make much Liberal was that to prove our point and would have looked like. If we had Democrat impact on his more con- value as participants in coalition we opted out of coalition, we would troversial plans? needed another five years and that, been accused of cowardice for not ‘The proposals changed quite a if that possibility arose again, we taking an opportunity to put for- bit from the way they had first been should not run away from it.’ ward our ideas. No, I supported set out. For example, we won the So following the electoral dis- the decision we took then and was setting up of the health and wellbe- aster that turned out, what lessons broadly satisfied by the agreement ing boards, which brought health should the Liberal Democrats learn itself, and I welcomed the oppor- and social care together for the first and what should they now do to tunity to put into law some of the time in one body. We had public prove their point and relevance? things I believed in and had cam- health returned to local authori- ‘We have to focus on rebuilding paigned about. And that is what I ties, a good Liberal Democrat idea. our local government base where have done.’ And then we had a series of con- so much of our old strength came As party chief whip he had been cessions we brokered as part of the from in the early ’90s. We also have privy to the progress of the nego- final package of the bill, not least to look to our colleagues in the tiations at the time. Would he have the changing of emphasis on com- Lords to give us effective leadership contemplated a deal to go in with petition so that it should not be an on all the major issues that are now the Labour Party had that possibil- end in itself but one there solely as a going to hit them. We need to get ity been on the table? servant of the patients’ interests. To back to campaigning on issues that ‘It never was a counterfactual. some extent that whole part of the matter to us.’ There was no prospect of a viable bill that was about competition was What had done the most dam- deal partly because of the num- watered down. The legislation was age to the party in those five years bers and partly because the Labour better for that.’ – the fact of going into coalition, Party had no appetite for it even Looking back, he believed that or particular issues like tuition fees within their own negotiating the Liberal Democrat legacy of this and NHS reforms, the handling team.’ time was the health and wellbe- of the coalition, or was it none of When he became Minister for ing boards, ‘which Labour would these things? ‘I think what did the Health it must have been a daunting have kept and built on’; the fact most damage was the fear that there task being asked to implement the that public health was now seen as a would be some sort of coalition Tory proposals for the NHS that local authority responsibility; and between Labour and Nicola Stur- the Tory secretary of state Andrew the watering down of competition geon’s SNP. That was the determi- Lansley had been working on for requirements as a solution to prob- nant. There were some issues like the previous four or five years. lems. ‘But the biggest legacy of all tuition fees which mattered a lot How had he reconciled that? is not the Health & Social Care Act, to some people but it was the over- ‘That period between May and it is the Care Act of 2014, which arching fear of the possible alter- July 2010 was pretty frenetic as we My personal is much more a Liberal Democrat native to the Tories that was the tried to introduce some of our own measure.’ deciding factor.’ proposals such as the scrapping of view was Paul Burstow ceased to be a So it was fear of the SNP more the SHAs. The civil servants had minister in 2012 but continued to than anything else, even if they had already done a lot of work on how that to prove build on his interest in residential no MPs outside Scotland? ‘Yes. You they would implement Lansley’s care and the development of mental are not talking rationality here. It plans, many of which had been set our point health services. I wondered to what is about emotion and not wanting out in the Tory manifesto. Our extent his perspective of the coali- that combination of parties to gov- own proposals had not been so and value as tion had changed after he left office. ern the country.’ detailed and the civil servants had ‘I had stopped being a decision Despite all the predictions the done no previous work on imple- participants maker so I decided to become an electorate had plumped deliberately menting or incorporating them implementer of the things I was for a majority Conservative gov- within the Tory plans. I would add in coalition most interested in. I set up commis- ernment defying almost every poll that at that stage there was also no sions with groups like Demos and finding, including those suggest- special adviser support for me in the we needed Centre Forum to look at residential ing that 40 per cent of the elector- department. We had to manage on care and mental health, and those ate actually liked and approved of our own.’ another five reports have proved influential on the coalition. What did that mean He claimed that he got on ‘quite government thinking and wider for the concept of coalition in the well’ with Andrew Lansley, reveal- years and policy thinking.’ future? ing that Lansley had been a member that, if that If the election results had proved ‘If it had been possible to vote of the SDP in the 1980s, although to be different and he had had the for the coalition on the ballot paper, he did not know him at the time. possibility chance to become a minister in I think large numbers might have He was ‘a man with a mission’ but another coalition involving the taken that option. I think strate- he had left Paul Burstow to get on arose again, Liberal Democrats, would he have gies that now try to take us away with his particular responsibili- said yes or no? ‘I think it is unlikely from the coalition would do noth- ties, which included social care and we should that I would have been offered ing but damage to our credibility. mental health. Health again, so it would have We should not now start apologis- Over the next year some of not run away depended on all sorts of thing. For ing for having had the temerity to Lansley’s proposals had come in example how big a party we were go into government. That would for heavy criticism from a number from it. and how much influence we were do nothing but damage to our

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 19 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers credibility as a party. The Liberal Europe and the break up of the UK. She was confident that the bill Democrats did a lot of good things What should the remaining Liberal would ultimately go through with and many will be remembered.’ Democrat MPs be doing to help to support on all sides (and later she And had he any additional pri- prevent that happening? ‘Getting proved to be absolutely right). orities for the party’s recovery in out of parliament and leading the Slightly surprisingly, Lynne did not London? ‘Concentrate on rebuild- campaign in the country,’ was his seem to have been unduly stifled ing our local government base and unhesitating response. by coalition government and there campaign on issues, particularly in Finally was he optimistic about was plenty more that she wanted to next year’s GLA elections where we the party’s ability to recover and do: for example, banning discrimi- can increase our share of the vote. would he want to be part of that nation against old people in public By then the Tories will have had to recovery? ‘I am old enough to services, particularly in hospitals do something about the deficit and remember that ‘dead parrot’ period and social care. will be becoming unpopular. We of 1987–89 when we featured in need to use the areas where we have asterisks in opinion polls, and yet been strongest in the past to rekin- two years later, in 1990, we won the … and how it looks now (5 dle that sense of grass-roots activ- Eastbourne by-election and that is June 2015) ism. We also need to make full use when the growth began. As for my Lynne Featherstone was one of only of our strength in the Lords.’ future, I shall certainly be helping six Liberal Democrat MPs who I suggested that the two great- – but two and a half weeks after 7 served as ministers for the full five est dangers for the country over the May is too soon to decide exactly years of the coalition. At the Home next five years were an exit from what I will want to be doing.’ Office, her record on women’s and same-sex issues is likely to stand the test of time, as is her record on dis- ability at the Department for Inter- national Development (DFID). Lynne Featherstone When she first stood in Horn- Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Equalities, Home Office, 2010–12; Parliamentary sey and Wood Green in 1997 she Under-Secretary of State for International Development 2012–14; Minister of State, finished in third place, 26,000 votes Home Office 2014–15; MP for Hornsey & Wood Green 2005–15; ennobled, 2015 behind Labour. In 2000 she managed to find time to redesign theJournal of How it looked to her then … ‘Funnily enough … (long pause) Liberal History for Duncan Brack; her (May 2011) … no. Of course there was a dis- excellent design remains unchanged ‘I am a Home Office minister as cussion beforehand but you can’t today. In 2001 she came second in well being Minister for Equalities: do anything in government with- Hornsey and Wood Green, reduc- I have women, LGBT, the Equality out the support of your secretary ing the Labour majority to 10,614. Act and the Equality Commission, of state and I have had nothing but In 2005 she won the seat with a but I also have domestic violence, support from Theresa May.’ And majority of 2,395, retaining it with international gender-based vio- from David Cameron too? ‘Yes, the a majority of 6,875 in 2010. Even lence, hate crime, prostitution, whole cabinet has to sign off, and with that record and every Liberal missing people, wheel clamping … David Cameron stepped forward Democrat in London rooting for her I could go on. It’s a very extensive at his conference to say that he sup- on 7 May, she was swept away by a portfolio but people know me most ported it. It has always been Liberal Labour majority of 11,058. Did she for equalities. Democrat policy, but I couldn’t feel a strong sense of injustice? ‘They are issues that you can be be doing if it wasn’t backed by the passionate about. They are about other side of the coalition equally.’ people’s lives.’ But it was clearly going to meet Two weeks earlier the Protec- strong opposition from certain tion of Freedoms Act, which she quarters. ‘I would defend to the was closely involved in construct- death the right of those who disa- ing, received royal assent. Did she gree to voice their disagreement, feel content with the Act as it had whether from a religious basis or been passed? ‘I think it is a great just from people in society who first step. There should be lots of feel it is odd or strange or such a other freedom bills – the more we change from tradition; but society can roll back on civil liberties and moves on. This is a great inequal- the surveillance society the better, ity. Obviously, if we were going to but this Act is a very good start.’ force religious organisations to con- The day after this interview duct services against their doctrinal President Obama came out in practices, you would understand; favour of same-sex marriage, a but we are not. I respect other peo- cause on which she has already ple’s views too and I think that spent a lot of time preparing a when two people love each other bill. The consultation process was and are willing to commit publicly already in hand. Had it been diffi- in a traditional state marriage we cult to get coalition agreement on should be able to rejoice with them the principle? whether they are gay or straight.’

20 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers

‘Only in the sense that the vot- On the day visceral hatred of the Tories that of support, she herself had decided ing system is rubbish. Politics is like had been the deciding issue. Why to stand down from the Home that. There is an injustice in that the we went into had the Liberal Democrats got so Office in anticipation of the com- Liberal Democrats were always the little credit for the good things the ing reshuffle. If asked, she wanted good guys in this coalition. If you coalition, party had done in government? to go to DFID. ‘I felt I had sewn look at what the coalition deliv- ‘Obviously the media are not, up the same-sex marriage bill. ered and pick out all the bits you all 26,000 of and never have been, very help- I had nurtured it mothered it, like you will find that they were all ful in getting our message across. gone to fight its battles so many at Lib Dem instigation. But we did those previ- Indeed that is probably origin of times when it very nearly fell know before we went in that third our long-standing own rule of “If from grace. Incidentally I had also parties going into coalition get it ous Labour you do something, put it on a leaf- introduced, among other things, in the neck. Apart from the eleven voters who let and put it through someone’s a highly popular ban on clamp- who voted against it at the special door” being the best way to get ing cars on private property. So conference I don’t think there was had turned our message across because no one by the time of the reshuffle, I felt anyone who thought we should else was going to help us. It is still I had done all I could at the Home not go into coalition. To have the to us over true today. Just one instance – I Office, although I followed the opportunity to have power and not went through that whole process of bill all the way through, sitting take it and deliver on it would have three elec- bringing forward the bill on same- alongside Maria Miller during the been insane. The sense of injustice sex marriage without The Guardian report on the consultation.’ is that we end up with the Tories tions wrote mentioning me once.’ What particularly did she becoming a majority govern- We turned back to those first feel she had achieved for women ment and us becoming a very little to tell me two years as a minister in the Home achieved during her time at the minority party, but that is the way Office. What did she think had been Home Office? ‘Part of my portfolio the voting system works, and that is in no uncer- her most significant achievement in was violence against women. Dur- undoubtedly unjust.’ government during that time? ing that period I was approached by So if she had to attribute blame tain terms ‘Everyone would say same-sex Nimco Ali, who had set up Daugh- for the disaster would it be mostly marriage. It wasn’t on the agenda. ters of Eve, an anti–FGM cam- going into coalition with the Tories that I was It wasn’t in the coalition agree- paigning grouping of young girls. or perhaps, in her own area, to ment or the main manifestos. I just Basically she took me by the collar Labour’s relentless denigration of the spawn of did it. Scotland followed and now and shook me, soon persuading me the Liberal Democrats over the pre- Ireland has had its own referen- that this was an important, equality vious five years? the devil … dum. It’s a piece of work of which issue about women’s rights. But the ‘On the day we went into coali- Neverthe- I am inordinately proud. It makes Home Office was not really set up tion, all 26,000 of those previous me very emotional and also gets to deal with it; DFID was, so, when Labour voters who had turned to less many of me invited to a lot of gay wed- I went there, I set out to make it a us over three elections wrote to tell dings. But the campaign to end major issue worldwide, and there- me in no uncertain terms that I was them contin- female genital mutilation (FGM) fore help the UK too.’ the spawn of the devil and that it also ranked very highly because it Justine Greening was her Tory was unforgivable of me to have put ued to love was not on the agenda. Now it most secretary of state. How had she the Tories into government. Nev- certainly is, and structurally so, so got on with her? ‘I think I man- ertheless many of them continued me for what I am optimistic that it can’t be dis- aged to put the agenda for women to love me for what I was doing in missed. Less well known but just at the top. In 2010 David Cam- government, be it same-sex mar- I was doing as important to me when I went to eron had given me the additional riage, international development, the Department for International role of being the UK’s ministe- female genital mutilation, or dis- in govern- Development was disability in the rial champion against violence ability campaigning. Then many developing world.’ against women. I don’t think Jus- told me that they were voting ment, be it Four years ago she had told to tine was necessarily interested in Labour with a heavy heart because me that Theresa May and David the FMG issue initially, but in so they wanted to keep the Conserva- same-sex Cameron had both been supportive far as it helped to define the gov- tives out. Well, as I told 15,000 of of her determined efforts to pro- ernment’s position, neither she nor them in my last email after the elec- marriage, duce a bill on same-sex marriage. David Cameron wanted all the tion, they now have a majority Was that still her recollection? credit for pursuing it to go to the Conservative government instead. international Initially she was hesitant – ‘You Liberal Democrats, so she became If ever there was lesson in voting develop- will have to wait for my book,’ she supportive. for what you believe in ….’ told me – but she soon conceded ‘I was left to get on with the A lot of polling had been done ment, female briefly that, despite some hostility issue behind the scenes but I did locally in the run-up, all showing on the Tory backbenches, they had manage to get Nick Clegg involved the Featherstone ratings as high genital muti- been supportive. ‘Theresa was one and I was particularly grateful to or on a par with Tim Farron and of the unsung heroes of same-sex the London Evening Standard for Norman Lamb, but she was facing lation, or marriage. Without her support it helping us to raise the profile.’ Labour. Yes, there had been a man- might have been strangled at birth, I wondered whether the Tory tra from Labour about the evils of disability and the prime minister was help- backbenchers, with their normal voting for tuition fees, the Health ful as well.’ Enough said for the prejudices about foreigners and the and Social Care Act, the bedroom campaigning. moment. UK spending money overseas, had tax and zero hours contracts, but Before the legislation finally been obstructive about what DFID they were lightning rods. It was the went through, with a wide range was trying to do. She agreed that

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 21 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers they, and the Daily Mail, had grum- Labour had not become the govern- detail. That is inevitable, and not bled about money being wasted, ment overall. Why not? for airing in public’ – but they but all three major parties were ‘London seems to be very dif- were ‘completely agreed on the committed in their manifestos to a ferent from the rest of the coun- core of the economic strategy and target expenditure of 0.7 per cent try. Simon and I saw huge Labour to tackling the deficit quickly and and that the argument that, if you surges here in last year’s council deeply’. didn’t want terrorism, you sup- elections. I have really no idea why What I ‘Delaying would have meant ported economies overseas was Labour did better, although it was more cuts for more people for a persuasive one. She also gave partly because the Green surge fear most longer and wasted more money on Greening’s predecessor Andrew didn’t happen in London and nor interest. Mitchell credit for putting DFID did UKIP do particularly well.’ is a lurch ‘We never ruled out raising VAT on a firmer financial footing. She came back to the ‘visceral’ to 20 per cent. None of us wanted When she returned to the Home hatred of the Tories with which the towards to but, when you have to deliver, Office in the autumn of 2014 as a Liberal Democrats had also become excessive you have to decide the balance minister of state, in place of Nor- branded by association. In her seat, between taxation and spending man Baker, Theresa May was fear of the SNP had not been a par- constraint on cuts and, if you decide to raise sig- ‘pleased to see me and gave me a ticular factor but the fear of the nificant funds, there are only three hug.’ Although she had taken over Tories was. When she supported government taxes you can go to – income tax, Baker’s responsibilities, there was the coalition originally she knew national insurance and VAT.’ now little time left to carry forward she might be risking her seat, but spending. We When would he able to say ‘We his policies on drugs, which some there was still a Liberal Democrat did it. We stuck to our principles. people had found too controversial. base left upon which to build. did what had And it worked’? In those last six months, crime pre- ‘Does the party have a role for ‘In time for the next general vention became her principal con- the future? Yes, it is a very impor- to be done election when, I believe, the Lib- cern. ‘I think I maintained a Liberal tant role – to put back that abil- eral Democrat contribution will be voice on drugs but there was no ity to vote for a Liberal voice. The in the last properly recognised at the polls, as time for new legislation. I became a challenge is how to combine the it was in Scotland in 2003 after an safe pair of hands.’ passion of Liberalism and its com- parliament; equally turbulent and unpopular In conclusion I wanted to be mitment to social justice, human first eighteen months in coalition quite clear where she thought the rights, internationalism and the there is no (with Labour). main reason for the electoral dis- environment with our grass-roots aster on 7 May lay. She and Simon campaigning. If we can get that doubt more Hughes had both been fighting right we are on the up.’ … and how it looks now (7 Labour and both had lost, and yet to be done, June 2015) but the thing He had just returned from two weeks’ holiday, and I thought he I fear is that was back in the Highlands on a lan- dline when I rang him at the agreed Sir Danny Alexander the Tories time. He wasn’t. He was on a Chief Secretary to the Treasury 2010–15; MP for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & mobile and walking down Victoria Strathspey 2005–15 will go way Street in central London – a noisy place and not ideal – but, despite the How it looked to him then … negotiations? ‘Our core argument beyond what traffic and then a requested break to (March 2011) in the election was for firmer action talk to Tom McNally whom he had He had not expected to be chief sec- to tackle the deficit than Labour is necessary, just bumped into, we managed to retary, but he had prepared for and was proposing and we were specific achieve an interview. led the coalition negotiations so the about our cuts, but we also said that and that will He had obviously been upset by notion of coalition had surprised timing should be determined by the his result but apparently not totally him less than most Liberal Demo- economic reality. I think that judg- affect public surprised. ‘For me defeat was prob- crats. ‘I had always thought a hung ment was right and it was one we ably less of a surprise than it was for parliament was a very real pos- fully shared. services, the many of my colleagues. I remember sibility. But likely? Probably not. ‘The biggest single gain for the saying to Nick (Clegg), two days Moving to the Treasury after just Liberal Democrats has been the welfare sys- after we formed the government, eighteen days was undoubtedly the inclusion of the raising of the tax ‘You realise that you might just big change but, having been Nick’s allowance threshold. That has gone tem and the have cost me my seat.’ chief of staff, it was a process I was from the front of our manifesto schools sys- ‘The Tories were extremely familiar with. I had been involved to the front line of the govern- unpopular in Scotland,’ he with setting political priorities and ment’s tax strategy. The second big tem, the very reminded me. ‘The idea of a Scot- had written the manifesto, setting gain has been the emphasis on the tish Liberal Democrat MP going out costs and priorities. The Treas- green economy. For example, in things we into a senior position in gov- ury is full of fantastic officials and the budget we announced an earlier ernment with them was always high-flying economists. What is start and tripling of the funds for never would going to be hard, and with the needed is ministers who can make the Green Investment Bank.’ later rise of the SNP in Scotland the right political judgments.’ He disagreed with George have allowed the trend became almost irresist- The two most significant ‘gives Osborne ‘quite a lot’ – ‘There is ible. In other constituencies in and takes’ on both sides in the plenty of debate between us about to happen. the south with big majorities, like

22 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers

‘I don’t really know and I am not other issues were not perhaps scru- going to rush to judgement. The tinised as carefully as they might truth is, though, that our position have been, but again many other was weakened by being in coali- issues were resolved later between tion, in the sense that many of those Paul Burstow and Andrew Lans- voters who had supported us in the ley including the introduction of past as protest voters had left us many of our own ideas.’ and, when it came to countering He believed that, except in a few the threat of a Labour–SNP combi- constituencies, the issues of tuition nation, we did not have the support fees and the NHS had not in the end to resist that message.’ played a big part in determining the I reminded him that in 2011 he election result, although the party had expected, a little optimistically had perhaps failed to take account I thought at the time, that the party of their importance to some voters. would see electoral reward in 2015 So we returned to fear of a Labour– for what it had done, but that hadn’t SNP government as the deciding happened. factor in England, even though the ‘No. In the end people’s fear SNP had no remit there. of a marauding band of Scottish ‘That was definitely the mes- Nationalists gaining control of a sage that gripped the imagination Labour government just proved too of people in England, to a much much.’ greater extent than I thought it I wondered, looking back over would. I wasn’t as aware as perhaps the last five years, whether his I should have been of the effect of feeling was one of satisfaction or the referendum result in creating David Laws in Yeovil, the results frustration. fear of the break up of the United must have come as a much bigger ‘Immense pride and satisfaction Kingdom. The fact that these peo- shock. I had expected us to hold in what we did, and great frustra- ple might be in charge of the UK at least thirty of our seats. I think tion that it was not recognised by was an abomination.’ the opinion pollsters have a lot to the electorate. It is quite interesting He then told me that since answer for. If people had thought to see the way people have joined the election he had not been on that a Tory overall majority was the party since the election almost ‘Osborne watch’. Probably the on the cards they would have as though it was an act of remorse.’ worst thing he could have done, voted for us.’ Possibly, I suggested, many of he believed, was obsess about what I suggested that, after all he had them were people who did not vote others were doing from day to day. done for the party and the country Liberal Democrat but then felt the But he must have had some resid- in helping to restore the economy, need to say they were sorry that ual fears about what the Treasury he must have felt a sense of unfair- they hadn’t? might be going to do next without ness about what had happened. ‘Yes. I think there was a lot of any Liberal Democrat presence? ‘I am not sure there is any point that, a lot of that. We put our coun- ‘Yes. I think what I fear most is a in complaining. It is what it is and try above our party and it is a bet- lurch towards excessive constraint in a democracy you have to put up ter country as a result, and I think on government spending. We did with that. I think it is rough jus- that over the next five years people what had to be done in the last par- tice for the party, given what we will see how very different a Tory liament; there is no doubt more contributed, but mainly I feel an majority is from a coalition.’ to be done, but the thing I fear is immense pride in what we did.’ Danny Alexander had been that the Tories will go way beyond But what had happened in Scot- a leading member of the Liberal what is necessary, and that will land, with an almost complete wipe Democrat coalition negotiating affect public services, the welfare out of Liberal Democrat MPs, must team. Why was it that the team system and the schools system, the have come as a terrible blow to appeared not at the time to have very things we never would have them all? recognised that issues like tui- allowed to happen. And that could ‘Of course, of course. The fact tion fees and NHS reform were also damage the recovery because that we were swept away on an as potentially toxic as they later it abandons economic balance in almost invincible national tide was turned out to be? favour of a myopic, one-golf-club quite different from losing our ‘Tuition fees were recognised approach.’ seats because of indolence or lack of in the agreement in the sense The electorate could not have application or whatever.’ that there was an opt-out agreed been said to have endorsed coalition I suggested that nobody could within it allowing Liberal Demo- in any way and, with the Liberal have done more than he had to crats to abstain in parliament. We Democrats now reduced to eight emphasise the Liberal Democrat hadn’t yet had the Browne report. MPs, did he think there was any policies in government, particu- Our position was in effect resolved future for a minority ex-coalition larly on tax, and yet the electorate in discussion of the detail later on. party, or indeed for coalition as a had given them almost no obvious On NHS reform we focused our form of government, or even for credit and the number of Liberal attention on the issues where dif- PR as a reformed electoral system? Democrat seats had dropped like a ferences between our two parties ‘I think there is a great future stone. Why was that? were greatest. That meant that for our party. Within a catastrophic

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 23 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers result there are many constituen- only change things by going into In 2009 Vince Cable and Nick cies where we hold strong second government. If that is not your aim Clegg had cautioned the Liberal places. There are a lot of voters you have no purpose.’ Meanwhile Democrat conference about hold- who regret voting for other par- he pointed out that the 100 Liberal ing or abolishing tuition fees. Had ties. But I think, more importantly Democrats in the House of Lords he had a rather raw deal on the for the country, there is a real need could have a considerable influence issue? for a Liberal voice whether it is on the present government. ‘It was no secret. I wrote about on Europe, human rights or the On a different note, did he fear this. We needed to be realistic. Uni- economy. We have a Conservative for Scotland and the Union and versities must be properly funded government and most of the candi- did he plan to do anything about it and have fair funding for students. dates for the Labour leadership are himself? With all the problems of impend- conservatives with a small ‘c’. You ‘I fear for Scotland because it ing cuts, it was clearly not going to hardly ever hear people like Andy is extremely unhealthy and illib- be possible to maintain our com- Burnham or Yvette Cooper talk- eral for Scotland to be a one-party mitment. It wasn’t easy, but I think ing about civil liberties or human state, and that must be changed. I we now have a realistic policy that rights. There is a desperate need to don’t actually think that Scotland I quite often ensures properly funded universi- put a Liberal counterpoint to that will ever vote to leave the United ties … and (in total) actually gives approach. Kingdom but you can’t be certain, met with them more money. ‘We are not going to see PR in and I shall be doing what I can to ‘Economic growth is already the next five years, but it’s impos- make sure it doesn’t happen. I won’t George beginning to come from rebalanc- sible to forecast about coalition. be standing for the Scottish parlia- ing the economy, in practice from Labour doesn’t seem capable of ment, and I am also not going to the Osborne on the private sector, particularly winning a majority next time House of Lords by the way. I am small-scale companies, and from around. I would hope, though, too young for that. But I don’t want a one-to-one exports and manufacturing, which that, if the opportunity for coali- to close off the possibility of elected in the years under Labour were in tion came up for us as party in 2020 office altogether.’ basis, but decline. We are helping all busi- or 2025, we would take it again … On that encouraging note we nesses by investing in apprentice- having, of course, learned the les- closed so that he could get on with part of my ships, and reducing regulation.’ sons. Liberalism is a philosophy that catching his train. Why hadn’t the government wants to change things. You can problem was done more to regulate and reorgan- ise the banks? ‘We’ve done quite a that I found lot actually. The banking levy, for example, is permanent and is going I disagreed to raise far more than Labour’s one- Sir Vince Cable with Danny off bonus tax. Bank regulations, for Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills 2010–15; MP for Twickenham example on requirements to hold 1997–2015 more than capital, are much tougher than they were … but I don’t deny that there How it looked to him then … visiting this country on bona fide I disagreed are still really serious problems.’ (April 2011) business or as students. Inevitably ‘It is more difficult exchanging there had to be some compromise, with George forthright freedom of expression but I am able to defend what we have … and how it looks now (11 in opposition for the frustrations done. And in most areas in which I Osborne. June 2015) of coalition government, and of have been involved in discussion – With such a high national and course there is a collective disci- macro policy, public spending, tax, Danny would local reputation behind him Vince pline to observe, but that is only the growth agenda – I don’t feel fun- Cable had seemed – forgive the pun right. What we are learning is how damentally ill at ease with the direc- always – invincible. His defeat in Twick- to maintain our sense of identity tion in which we are going. enham was one of the biggest sur- within a coherent government. I ‘I believe cabinet meetings are repeat the prises of election night. He was think a lot of people around the a constructive forum for debate. obviously thrown by it but also world admire the government for People looking in now are pleas- Treasury surprisingly philosophical. He had being very determined, particu- antly surprised at what they call seen the signs in a local poll con- larly over the public finances, but the revival of cabinet government. line. Osborne ducted a year before and he clearly the issue for Liberal Democrats is Under Blair and Brown I believe it did not think that the Liberal to signal our own identity and val- was much more prime ministerial.’ was a highly Democrat election campaign had ues and that we are making a major How did he get on with George intelligent improved his chances. input.’ Osborne? ‘We have a good profes- ‘I think our national campaign Were some cabinet decisions sional relationship. We are not per- guy and on was abysmal. It was embarrass- exasperating? ‘That’s not the word sonal mates and don’t aspire to be, ingly bad. Whatever hope we had, I would use. I would not have gone but that is not the point. Economi- occasions expired during those three weeks.’ into the government if I hadn’t cally we have the two key depart- So had that been the principal accepted that compromises have to ments of government. It’s crucial was willing reason for the disastrous national be made. For example, there were that we work and communicate results of 7 May? Or was it going clearly different perspectives on well together, and we do. It’s busi- to do a trade, into coalition with the Tories, spe- immigration. I made a very strong ness-like and professional. No more cific issues, or fear of Labour and case for a liberal approach to people nor less.’ as it were. the SNP?

24 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers

campaign as on the fear factor of was grateful for my support during Labour and the SNP. Was that what that first year when the government he meant? ‘No, I think the Labour– was at its weakest, but as time went SNP fear factor was decisive, but on it became clear that our views the failure of our own campaign were very different. I was support- was that it didn’t answer it.’ ing fiscal austerity because it was an He had lost by a relatively small emergency; he was doing it because margin, but included in that had he wanted a smaller state.’ been a rise in the Labour vote that Had he, George Osborne he had previously squeezed over and Danny Alexander often met a long period. Why did that rise together outside cabinet? ‘No. happen? I quite often met with George ‘We met a lot of it on the door- Osborne on a one-to-one basis, but step. It was the very predictable part of my problem was that I found “Why did you go into coalition I disagreed with Danny more than with the Tories?” – tuition fees, I disagreed with George Osborne. bedroom tax, all those things. Danny would always repeat the When you actually talked to peo- Treasury line. Osborne was a highly ple face to face, you could explain intelligent guy and on occasions all this and they accepted it, but was willing to do a trade, as it were. we could never talk to everybody. For example I was able to set up the Even then some of them did not feel Business Bank in return for agree- the need to vote tactically because ing to his whacky proposal about we “had a big majority”.’ workers shares for rights, which Compared with the resources never actually went anywhere.’ ‘There were different elements. available to him, was the extra Generally he had been free to get We knew from last year’s election money spent by the Tories locally on with his department – ‘I think results and from the survey con- another deciding factor? ‘It was that was David Cameron’s style’. ducted in our constituency that the a very big factor. We could have He had had to deal with advice party’s position locally was quite topped up our own campaign from a number of senior civil serv- weak; that the party’s approval by spending money putting out ants and economists; I wondered level was very, very negative, quite national leaflets which didn’t men- whether he had found them helpful toxic in fact; that Nick (Clegg) was tion the constituency, but that or obstructive. His first, preferred extremely unpopular, almost as wasn’t adding any value. It was reaction was to tell me how well he unpopular as Miliband; and, prob- just turning people off, whereas worked with the five or more Tory ably also true of other parts of the the Tories were sending out end- ministers he had within his depart- country, that as the sitting MP I less stuff featuring David Cam- ment. Over the five years his single had a very high recognition and eron, who was seen as a plus factor. Liberal Democrat ministers had approval rate. Because of the way the spend- been Ed Davey, followed by Nor- ‘That was the background. In ing limits operated they were man Lamb, Jo Swinson and Jenny the run-up to the election I think unconstrained.’ Willott. And he was proud of all his we had a very poor national cam- In 2011, when we had last ministers’ achievements. paign with no clear message. The talked, he had clearly understood ‘We did lots of really big things. one thing we seemed to be trying the constraints and compromises of The industrial strategy was a big to tell people was that there was coalition early on and had believed success, as was the setting up of the bound to be a coalition, come what that many people around the world Business Bank and Green Invest- may, which of course was nonsense. were actually admiring the govern- ment Bank. The science-based We did almost nothing to address ment for being determined, partic- catapult network was an important the possibility of a Conservative ularly as far as public finances were breakthrough in terms of practi- government. Basically all we had concerned. Did he still feel that was cal support for innovation. We was a very good local campaign. I the correct view and that that was made ourselves a lot of enemies but had a certain amount of credibil- how it continued for the five years? we reformed university finance ity as an individual but that had to ‘Yes I do. Even among people in a way that made them now sus- be weighed against a very negative who didn’t vote for us locally we tainable. We put through a lot of position for the party and the party found a lot of people who liked the progressive legislation – flexible leader in particular. We could still coalition and what it had done, but working, shared parental leave, have won if it hadn’t been for a very they didn’t like Miliband and the executive pay, small business lend- successful national Tory campaign, SNP so that was why they were ing, women on boards of compa- not based on the local Tories but on going to vote Tory. There was a lot nies and more. It was a long list and daily targeted personal letters from of pro-coalition feedback.’ a big record.’ Cameron on issues, and emails and Again in 2011 he had told me that Many of the Vickers Commis- telephone calls warning of the dan- he and George Osborne, while not sion recommendations on banking gers of Labour and the SNP, if you being mates, worked well together. that he strongly favoured in 2011 voted Lib Dem.’ Did they continue to do so? had also now been implemented. He seemed to be putting as much ‘The relationship became pro- He and George Osborne had both blame on the Liberal Democrat gressively more distant. I think he compromised in achieving ‘the

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 25 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers biggest structural reform of bank- certainly unlikely to happen again to make sure the Tories do not ing of any major industrial coun- for some years. And what was the entrench their hegemony. try.’ So why was it that during the future for an ex-coalition minor- I suggested that the most impor- election there had still been a feel- ity party that had been reduced to tant issue facing the country over ing that not enough had been done eight MPs? next eighteen months was going to about bankers? ‘I think coalition has a future. be the referendum on Europe. What ‘I don’t think enough had been After all this government only has role should the Liberal Democrats done. We had done a fair amount a majority of twelve. We could well be playing helping to make sure but despite all our efforts it was be back to minority government in that the country voted to stay in? difficult for small businesses to get five years time.’ ‘I don’t think we should be too lending. We kept on running up I think we He was reluctant to give his prominent. We are known to be against new banking scandals. It views about the future of the Lib- very pro-Europe. There is a slight gradually became apparent to me – were the eral Democrats but, as a piece of danger of coming across as Euro- I don’t know whether it did to the advice, he was willingly to reveal zealots, which will turn people Tories – that the banking sector greenest that although he preferred Nor- off. I would like to see people like was just too big and was rotten to government man Lamb as an individual he Frances O’Grady and some senior the core.’ thought what he called ‘the Farron people from business at the fore- Five year ago David Cameron ever … but approach’ of going back to basics front of the campaign, but the one had talked about ‘the greenest gov- of building up the grass roots and person who is critical is Cameron ernment ever’. Theoretically a the narrative getting more councillors was the himself. It’s his show and having a combination in coalition of Con- best way of proceeding. His own sceptic saying he is now in favour of servatives and Liberal Democrats was not sup- ‘personal prejudice’ was that the staying in will decide the issue.’ could have been, but even with party should be trying to work Was that the way it would go? the Green investment Bank it had ported by the more openly with the Labour Party ‘Yes’. seemed to me that the expansion of renewables and reduction of green side of emissions was much slower than it should have been. Was that a wrong the media, impression? Edward Davey ‘No doubt more could have because we been done but I think our record Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills 2010–12; was creditable. As well as the were in with Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change 2012–15; MP for Kingston & Green Investment Bank, we now Surbiton 1997–2015 have the biggest offshore wind the Tories. industry in the world, by a very And there (15 June 2015) picture stuff. For example, some long way. That was done under Of course Ed Davey felt aggrieved people felt betrayed simply because Chris Huhne and Ed Davey who were some to have lost his seat after eighteen we had done a deal with the Tories also reformed the system of elec- years but he was far from downcast. ….’ tricity pricing that has given a failings … We were sitting in the constitu- Had that been a major factor in further push to renewables. The ency office of the Kingston Liberal his constituency? ‘No, not huge, reason why the public may have none of the Democrats and he felt certain that but in a slug of the population it thought progress had been slow is the Liberal Democrats in Kingston was. We had centre-left voters who because the government was actu- previous gov- & Surbiton and other key seats had thought we were left of the Labour ally quite divided. There were done as much as they possibly could Party. We went in with the Tories genuine problems.’ ernments to look after their constituents’ and they thought we were just Had he found that major- interests, and he was equally confi- beyond the pale. The second fac- ity of senior people in business had been dent that in the coalition they had tor was that we went in knowing understood climate change or done a really good job for the coun- we had to make some tough and were they eco-sceptical? ‘Most of very green, try. They had had to make some unpalatable decisions. Persuading those who mattered were pretty compromises but they had stuck our supporters that they were nec- aware. Indeed some were ahead and it was to their principles and delivered ‘a essary was never going to be easy, of the government. For instance, great deal for their voters and for and some of them took them as the car industry was planning ten the Liberal progressive politics’. evidence that we had moved to the or twenty years ahead for lower ‘Clearly that did not come across right, which wasn’t the case but it emission engines, and the aircraft Democrats as much as it should have done’, he fed that narrative. And, of course, industry was planning for the use who made admitted, ‘but these things happen. there was the big-picture issue of of lighter materials knowing they My biggest worry is not for myself tuition fees. For a slug of the pop- will be an issue in the future. The this one – I will earn more money, work less ulation getting over those three people who were quite disappoint- hard and see my family more – but things was too difficult. I think we ing were the green companies like green. But I came into politics to do things and could have handled tuition fees bet- Dong. They were happy to set up they are now under threat.’ ter and probably the overall nar- things like wind farms here but we had to Why had the Liberal Democrats rative better, but the other issues were reluctant to develop the Brit- failed so manifestly to persuade I don’t think we could have done ish supply chain.’ fight all the the electors of their value in gov- much more about.’ We returned to coalition and ernment? ‘There are many parts to So it had been a ‘triple its future, if there was one. It was way … that answer. There was the very big whammy’? ‘Yes. With the benefit

26 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers of hindsight – we were all so busy For example, there was the Liberal at the time it was difficult to think Democrat proposal for getting rid about everything – we should have of the default age of retirement at recognised all those problems and 65, under which employees could dealt with them more strategically be sacked. We managed to win that early on. Instead we relied on hav- one. Another was flexible paren- ing five years to recover from them tal leave, a policy I spent eighteen because we had to “show that the months creating, which was later coalition could work”. I am sure implemented by Norman Lamb that Nick and his team were think- and Jo Swinson.’ ing strategically and realised there As his next step had been to move was a problem, but they thought it to the Department of Energy and would go away and it didn’t.’ Climate Change, I wondered how Ed Davey was an unusual Lib- much environmental considerations eral Democrat minister, and pos- had featured in his discussions with sibly unusually lucky, in that he Vince Cable, and whether there been started off working under a Liberal any disagreements between them. Democrat secretary of state, Vince ‘No, we almost never disagreed. Cable, in Business Innovation and I was very privileged in that way, Skills, and later taken over from The environmental legislation we another Liberal Democrat secretary did deal with was mostly related to of state, Chris Huhne in Energy accounting and reporting.’ and Climate Change. In that sense When he took over from Chris had he had his own patch all the Huhne, did he feel in any way con- way through? strained by what Chris had initi- ‘Oh very much so. I was very ated or did he feel happy to take across the department. It had varied fortunate. There were a number over where he had left off? immensely according to which civil of ministers in Vince’s depart- ‘Probably the latter. The truth is servants were allotted to the policy. ment, but he gave me first choice that, if you take over from a minis- For example, he had had to fight as to what I wanted to do and then, ter, you don’t just rip up everything the department to get his commu- because he was busy with tuition he or she has done. All policies nity energy policy through; he had fees, banks and other issues, he and strategies take time to imple- lost the Swansea tidal lagoon bat- mostly let me get on with it. My ment. That is not to say that there tle; but he had eventually won the portfolio was actually huge. It cov- were not lots of things still to be argument over electricity demand ered Royal Mail and post offices, decided, particularly on issues such reduction, aimed at avoiding the employment legislation, consumer as electricity market reform. Chris need to build more power plants. law, competition law, corporate had done a great deal, but on my Pre-election David Cameron governance and trade policy. In a appointment David Cameron said, had talked about ‘voting blue to go way it was a portfolio made for me “You may want to look at all this green’ and, after the election, ‘the because I was a postgraduate econo- again.” Clearly the Tories didn’t greenest government ever’. His ear- mist who had made a study most of like it, but Chris had left me some lier ideas combined with Liberal those subjects. I had also worked in very good handover notes and we Democrat policies might have made business as a consultant specialising went ahead.’ it so and yet, I suggested, five years in postal industries. People forget He had obviously felt uncom- later there was a slight feeling of fail- that the privatisation of the Royal fortable about the Green Deal ure to deliver all that he and Chris Mail was the largest ever employee energy efficiency programme and Huhne had hoped for. He disagreed. share-ownership deal. That was needed to tell me about it. He had ‘I think we were the green- a Liberal Democrat policy, and it calculated from looking at the detail est government ever, by a coun- was a battle with the Treasury to of the proposal he inherited that try mile, but the narrative was not get it through. It was critical that it would not ‘wash its face’. Apart supported by the green side of the employees should have at least a 10 perhaps from being too ebullient media, because we were in with per cent share. Another battle we about it, that had been the fault the Tories. And there were some won was protecting the post offices not of Chris Huhne but of a junior failings. The reason why we were in people’s communities by separat- Tory minister and an overenthusi- the greenest government ever was ing them from Royal Mail.’ astic senior civil servant in charge because none of the previous gov- To what extent, in that role, had of developing the programme. He ernments had been very green, and he rubbed up against the Tories? went on to explain some of the fur- it was the Liberal Democrats who ‘In quite a lot of areas we saw eye ther detail but he then admitted that made this one green. But we had to eye, but employee legislation he had misjudged the revised ver- to fight all the way on, for exam- was the biggest problem. There sion of the deal. ‘It was a policy fail- ple, renewables, energy efficiency, was a conflict between things the ure on our part.’ railway transport investment and Liberal Democrats wanted to do, A failure which sounded as if green regulations. Eric Pickles which were in the coalition agree- it was attributable more to over- was the worst. He opposed almost ment, and things the Tories wanted enthusiasm by civil servants than everything whether on hous- to do, which weren’t and were to obstruction or incompetence. ing, planning, energy efficiency mostly very right wing and nasty. Apparently that was not a pattern or whatever. We won most of our

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 27 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers battles in DECC and a few in BIS the future for the Liberal Demo- agreement. With hindsight had the but elsewhere it was more difficult.’ crats in coalition of any kind agreement been the best they could He cited particularly the suc- was less bright. Had the past five have achieved at the time and did he cesses of more than trebling the years killed off the whole con- think it had worked in practice? output of renewable electricity, cept of coalition as a good form of ‘I think the agreement was leading the world by a long way government? pretty good but I think the main in offshore wind power and being ‘Well it hasn’t for me. I think problem was that it was only part of now in the top ten in solar power. If people should think much harder. what happened. First of all, it was he had to pick his greatest achieve- Is it good for government? I think it not fully implemented. For exam- ment, what would it be? is far better than single-party gov- ple, there was supposed to be a Coa- ‘Undoubtedly the European ernment. It is far more transparent. lition Committee. It never met and deals I did. In 2008 Blair and Mer- It prevents any one party going to was replaced by the ‘Quad’, which kel had agreed across the EU to an extreme. In fact, because every was not envisaged. what they called 2020 targets – 20 policy has to be agreed it is a much What were they? ‘The Com- per cent renewable energy, 20 per more evidence-based approach, mittee would have included Vince cent reduction in carbon emissions which is a good place for Liberal Cable and me. The ‘Quad’ didn’t!’ and 20 per cent energy efficiency by Democrats.’ The four who were members were 2020. We may yet achieve that, but I could see the reward for those David Cameron, Nick Clegg, what a lot of us realised was that we who were part of a coalition, but George Osborne and Danny Alex- had to start thinking about 2030 and what about the credit for a minority ander. He suspected that the idea beyond very soon. We needed a new party and its support from poten- of having the Quad rather than the agreement but there was no leader- tial voters? ‘Ah that is a different committee had come from the lead- ship in the EU and some opposition. question. The first is “Was it good ers, ‘because leaders tend to find So over two and a half years I set up government?” In this case it was. smaller groups more amenable and a Green Growth Group and spent Undoubtedly. The politics about it easy to manage’. a lot of time going around talking is that it has been an electoral disas- ‘But the second, more important to other countries in the EU and ter for the Liberal Democrats. But issue, was that as well as the agree- finally achieving agreement on 2030 we must be careful. It wasn’t the ment, there were the private talks targets. This could lead, at the Paris coalition that did for us. We always between Cameron and Clegg about summit later this year, to an inter- expected to lose some seats. It was personnel – i.e. about ministerial national agreement on targets.’ the unprecedented phenomenon of appointments. In the negotiating It was good to hear of real the Scots Nats and the fear that they team we didn’t know about those achievement in government but and Labour engendered.’ – maybe Danny did but we didn’t. So when I was rung up and offered Energy and Climate Change, I asked Nick if he realised that he and Cameron were offering me a poi- Chris Huhne soned chalice because of the nuclear Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change 2010–12; MP for Eastleigh (power) issue and that by giving 2005–12 Vince BIS they were giving him the equally toxic issue of tuition fees to (15 June 2015) spending review when, apart from We met in his delightful eight- those departments that had been eenth-century flat in the City. He deliberately ring-fenced, like the was deliberately the last of my NHS and International Develop- interviewees. With the knowledge ment, we came out best from the of all I had learnt from Nick Clegg process. I think we had a lot of suc- and the nine other ex-ministers, cess. There were a lot of battles to I wanted to take advantage of his fight and I was criticised by a lot of three years out of Liberal Democrat Tories for being too tough. Indeed politics, but it was still right to start it was quite amusing that, when with his two as a secretary of state I went, a number were quoted in in the coalition. Had that felt like a the press as being relieved because position of real power or had he felt they thought things would be eas- endlessly constrained by Conserva- ier because I had been so difficult, tives or coalition obligations? but course they weren’t because in ‘No. I thought we were able reality they were in coalition and to do a lot actually. We got the they did not have a majority. So I first energy bill through and the don’t resile in any way from being White Paper for the second energy difficult because we had a lot of bill. We got the carbon budget negotiating strength.’ approved, we had some success He had been a principal mem- working with European allies on ber of the Liberal Democrat coa- the international climate nego- lition negotiating team and the tiations, and in general it was the obligations and restraints put on the time of the first comprehensive party were those established by the

28 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers deal with. In other words the Tories I think the Chris Rennard had understood ‘What a terrible, terrible mes- were offering us the two portfolios the risks of fighting on the wide sage! That’s like going into the pub most designed to call into question agreement front that had always failed the and saying I want the tonic water our integrity and ability to deliver.’ party in the 1980s and that had done or the soda water. People don’t go This sounded like a conspiracy was pretty so again in the last two elections. in for that. They go in for the gin theory so was he saying that they Chris recalled his own early experi- or the whisky, not the mixer. The should not have accepted those good but … ence of three times failing to win a best possible gloss on moderation is responsibilities, when they were seat in parliament and claimed that that it is dilution, moderating the both really good jobs? ‘No. I am it was only anyone who had had direct experi- others, but most British elections saying that the decisions were not ence of what he called ‘the cruelty are basically dominated by fear. joined up. If I had known during the part of what of the electoral system’ would have Most people who vote Tory do so negotiations that that was the way happened. known that the broad approach because they fear Labour and most we were going, we would have been would not work. In effect he was Labour voters fear the Tories. Put tougher on those issues in the agree- First of all, saying that, whatever the tempta- yourself in the shoes of the Labour ment, particularly on tuition fees tions might be, ‘fighting the air voter who thinks his benefits are where so many MPs had signed that it was not war’ on a broad front, rather than going to be cut. Or the Tory small petition and waved those placards.’ concentrating, might pick up votes businessman who thinks he is going Looking at the five year span fully imple- but it did not win seats. to be subjected to his taxes going now did he think that the coalition Experience in other countries up. What’s our message to them? had worked in practice as a govern- mented. For in Europe had also shown that We are going to cut benefits a little ment for the UK? ‘Yes I do. I think being a minority party in govern- bit less or the tax on his house won’t it was the right thing to do at the example, ment always led to a loss of seats. be so much! That is just the mixer time and there would have been He quoted ‘half’ as being the rule in the drink, not the message.’ some potentially very dire out- there was of thumb in Holland. In the UK the I warmed to his analysis but what comes if we hadn’t done what we Liberal Democrats had lost two- would he have done? Apart from did. Don’t forget that the very day supposed to thirds of their seats in 2015. quoting his own literature from after the general election there was ‘I think we ran a very bad cam- Eastleigh in 2010 he was not specific, the first very serious wobble on the be a Coali- paign,’ he continued. ‘I remem- except to say that it could have been financial markets for the Greeks, ber Nick telling me in 2010 that a green message, a message about and the governor of the Bank of tion Commit- he thought we had run a great education – primary schools, class England, Mervyn King, and the campaign. I don’t think we did. It sizes ‘or anything as long as it was permanent secretary of the Treas- tee. It never wasn’t targeted enough and we had clear, simple and positive’. ury, and Gus O’Donnell were all met and was not planned what we should be say- I told him, as almost everyone I telling us “Could you please final- ing or doing if he won the leader’s had interviewed had told me, that ise your agreement before the mar- replaced by debate, which of course he did. All the principal difference between kets reopen on Monday morning?” we heard afterwards was the hissing 2015 and previous elections had Well, of course, that was ridiculous. the ‘Quad’, of the air leaving the balloon. seemed to be the centrally initiated In Belgium, for example, forming ‘In my view John Sharkey was and precisely targeted bombard- a coalition sometimes takes weeks which was the wrong person to run that cam- ment of voters in Liberal Democrat or months, including a lot of long paign and even more wrong there- held seats – personal letters from lunches. It was absurd. Neverthe- not envis- fore as the choice to run the crown David Cameron, personal emails less we did achieve it by Tuesday! jewels of the agreement, the AV and direct mail on issues, and end- ‘We were very vulnerable. We aged … The referendum campaign. That was less telephone calls reminding them had a bigger deficit than Greece. It a disaster, but let’s come back to of the dangers of Labour and the was the right thing to do although I Committee 2015. I had warned [Guardian, 2014] SNP. Local campaigns had seemed don’t think we handled it very well that, if we had a mushy message in to count for almost nothing. How afterwards.’ would have the election, we would come out did he see that? It had not worked for Liberal with sod all. We needed one clear ‘It is a key point, and it is a Democrats on 7 May 2015, had it? included positive message, as we had done form of campaigning that avoids ‘No, it hadn’t but there were a lot in some previous elections – for the expenses rule because it does of reasons for that. The problem is Vince Cable example “1p on income tax for not mention the candidate, but let that there are too many explana- schools”. At least in 2010 we had the us remember what we got wrong tions, not too few. The difficulty and me. The tax threshold. You need one clear in the air war. The national cam- is working out which are the most ‘Quad’ didn’t! message to give people a reason to paign had no attractive message important. In retrospect some of justify voting for you when chal- and we were not targeting as we the problems were already appar- lenged in the pub. More schools. should have done. But you are abso- ent in 2010. That was the first elec- Something! But what did we have lutely right. The Tories developed tion result we had had for many this time?’ a new technique in this war. It was years when our share of the vote Would he not agree that there a bit like the Franco-Prussian war went up but our number of seats was one word in frequent use dur- when the Prussians turned up with went down. That was a real warn- ing the election, a word that I a new rifle that the French didn’t ing signal. It was partly a rebellion remembered describing in Liberal have. Every so often in the history by our impatient young campaign News in a similar context of possible of warfare one side in a war gets a team against the cautious targeted coalition in 1974 as ‘a bag of feath- technological advantage. What the approach of what I would call ers’? That word was ‘moderation’. Tories did this time was they found “Rennardism”.’ This produced a minor explosion. a way of using masses of money to

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 29 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers target swing voters ruthlessly. So handling of tuition fees and the AV The two big still clearly proving extremely dif- what has actually happened is that referendum. We could have done ficult to swallow – was in the eat- we now have a very small number both so much better. If you accept mistakes we ing. To continue the analogy for a of marginal seats. This means that that we made those mistakes, could moment, a few of the Liberal Dem- under the first past the post system we have recovered from them? The made were ocrat sanctioned ingredients proved you can reduce the number of peo- first rule in politics is ‘Never apolo- to be undercooked and verging ple who are uncertain about their gise. Never explain.’ On the other in that first on the toxic and a few were more vote to an even smaller number and hand when you have done some- unpalatable and indigestible, all of ignore the firm Tory and Labour thing as damaging to your brand as year were which meant that the many bet- voters entirely. What the Tories we did with tuition fees, then you ter tastes of other ingredients were did was a lot of telephone polling have to recover trust ….’ the handling never recognised. The reaction of beforehand to find out exactly who And trust had really been lost? of tuition the majority of voters on 7 May those swing voters were and what ‘Oh yes it was. Remember all par- 2015 was to pour their helping of they cared about. Hence all those ties can compromise and break fees and the the pudding into the waste bin for personal letters about these issues.’ some promises, but there are also fear of something worse. Or, I suggested, the dangers of promises so important to your base AV referen- The unhelpful issues, or ingre- a Labour–SNP government? He that you tamper with them at your dients, almost all the ex-ministers agreed and continued in the same peril. Let me give you an example. dum. We appeared to suggest with varying vein for a few minutes, repeating Cameron has broken lots of prom- degrees of anger or distaste, were ‘They spent a lot of money,’ and ises but the one promise he never could have coalition with the Tories, tuition then adding, ‘but this was not a broke was to say that he would pro- fees, NHS reform, the mismanaged badly resourced election for us and tect old people’s universal benefits. done both so AV referendum, Liberal Demo- one person particularly deserves He never did and he hasn’t.’ crat guilt by association with other credit for that – Ian Wriggles- On that issue he believed the much better. issues like the bedroom tax and, worth. He raised a lot of money. Liberal Democrats could have been however necessary they might If we had known how to spend it more courageous in insisting on the have been, cuts in public services. properly, we could have done the means testing of those who didn’t For example – in contrast to Nick same as the Tories and fought them. need benefits and enjoyed free Harvey – Chris Huhne and even Next time we can do that.’ travel and subsidised home heating. Tom McNally, Nick Clegg, Vince As we neared an end he came up Finally, what did he think Cable and Danny Alexander did with a gruesome calculation. ‘What was the future for the Liberal not see tuition fees as having made worries me is that we are down to Democrats? a crucial difference to the election a minority of people who switched He hoped that the party would results except, perhaps in certain their votes in a small minority of have some good by-elections in seats, and held to the positive view seats which changed hands. That is the next two years and do well about improved university funding probably an electorate of no more with them. If so, that would pro- and more access to universities for than 200,000 people. Which is vide the oxygen that could fuel a poorer students. On the other hand, probably what we had at the time of rebound. But the reverse of that Nick Clegg was as condemnatory the Great Reform Act.’ coin was what had killed off David as anyone about the lack of an all- Leaping forward nearly a cou- Owen’s rump SDP in 1989 – dis- party approach to AV. ple of centuries I wanted to know astrous third or fourth place by- Inevitably ex-ministerial reac- whether, if he had been party leader election results and a collapse of tions to coalition were also heavily in the second or third year of a coa- credibility. Despite that gloomy coloured by the election results that lition that he had willingly entered, prospect he was confident that the followed. Unsurprisingly stunned there was any one thing he would new party leader, whoever he was, by the number of Liberal Democrat have done at that stage to stem the would be able to avoid the pitfalls seats lost on 7 May 2015, including party’s decline? of extinction. their own, most of the ex-ministers ‘The two big mistakes we made Let us hope so. were very critical of the party’s were in that first year were the national campaign. There was a wide divergence of view as to what went wrong. While Nick Clegg, Danny Alex- ander, Michael Moore and Paul Conclusion: Adrian Slade Burstow put the blame on fear of a Labour–SNP government When you and your party have just Conservatives; all broadly accepted and the Tory local bombardment been through the nearest equiva- the terms of the agreement reached that went with it, Vince Cable, lent to political Armageddon it between the two parties in May Nick Harvey and Chris Huhne cannot be easy to be rational about 2010 and, with the one clear excep- were particularly scathing about the coalition that appears to have tion of Nick Harvey, almost all the ineffectiveness of the Liberal brought about your downfall. And believed – full-heartedly or rather Democrat campaign. Comments yet, even in retrospect, not one Lib- reluctantly – that the coalition had ranged from a relatively polite eral Democrat ex-coalition min- made a reasonably good job of what ‘weak and abysmal’ to ‘petu- ister retracted his or her original it set out to do. lant and childish’ and ‘terrible’, support for the decision to take The problem of the pudding and that was despite being better the party into a coalition with the carefully put together – and it is funded than in previous years.

30 Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 coalition and the deluge: interviews with former ministers

Although he offered no very Vince Cable, All that said, the truth of the that he and David Cameron had clear solution to what he and others matter almost certainly is, and created. It was small comfort for blamed as a ‘lack of message’, Chris Nick Harvey every poll since 2010 has confirmed him to have retained his seat when Huhne may well have been right it, that the Liberal Democrats he had lost everything else: his job when he pointed out that, for once, and Chris starting losing a huge proportion as Deputy Prime Minister, almost the party was not totally bereft of of their normal floating or tacti- all his fellow MPs, no more oppor- central funds and that more could Huhne were cal voters almost from the first tunity to be in government, and have been done to counter the moment the party went into coa- probably also most of the hopes he relentless Tory Central Office poll- particu- lition with the Tories. The fact set out with when he first became ing, telephoning, emailing and that there was no alternative, the party leader in 2008. Inevitably he direct mail targeting of floating larly scath- fact that Labour had left the coun- is now on the rough end of criticism voters in Liberal Democrat con- ing about try in an economic mess, the fact from a few of his ministers, even if stituencies. Certainly many of the that Labour had neither the votes most of it is relatively gentle, and ministers I talked to felt that this the ineffec- nor the inclination to do any kind probably sharper criticism from had been one of the key factors in of deal of rescue with the Lib- some party members; but no min- their defeat. They simply could not tiveness of eral Democrats, the fact that Nick ister has reneged on the concept of compete with the scale of this kind Clegg and his party were doing it the coalition or criticised his deter- of campaigning. the Liberal in a crisis for the good of country mination to make it last the full What every MP facing a Tory as – all were ignored by the party’s five years. The fact that, during the his main opponent agreed was that Democrat natural supporters and some of its time of his joint coalition, the UK the message of fear of Miliband, the active members. A terrible sin had moved so well from economic cri- Labour Party and the SNP as a pos- campaign. been committed and the deser- sis to relative stability, on the way sible government was hammered tion of support quickly began. This also achieving significant changes home so hard that it drove most of Comments was then compounded about two in many areas of policy, will ulti- the Liberal Democrat voters who months later by the revelation to mately be noted by historians and had previously assured them of ranged from some of its core voters – the parents remembered. their seats to desert the party for of school children, the teachers and Characteristically Nick Clegg the Tories. No doubt this flight was a relatively many of those in the public ser- has accepted most of the blame for not helped by the loss of trust over vice professions – that, under their the party’s new dilemma. Let us tuition fees or the anger of tactical polite ‘weak agreement with Tories, the pre- now hope that the Liberal Demo- voters from Labour at collaboration cious Liberal Democrat pledge on crat recovery will ultimately prove with the Tories, but they were sub- and abysmal’ tuition fees was being abandoned. that he did not strive in vain. sidiary to the fear factor. to ‘petulant This ‘betrayal’ was enough to drive Ironically, according to Lynne away even more of the 2010 sup- Featherstone, a part reverse was hap- and childish’ port and, for all the fine achieve- Acknowledgements and pening to her and Simon Hughes ment of the Liberal Democrats in thanks in the two seats in London where and ‘terri- coalition, trust was lost and it never Nick Clegg, Tom McNally, Nick Liberal Democrats faced Labour. came back. Harvey, Michael Moore, Steve Although it was undoubtedly abet- ble’, and that In May 2010 Nick Clegg had Webb, Paul Burstow, Lynne Feath- ted by some of the other coalition been caught between the devil and erstone, Danny Alexander, Vince issues, hate and fear of a Tory major- was despite the deep blue sea. All the devil had Cable, Ed Davey, Chris Huhne, ity were enough to overthrow their to offer him was a party opt-out Duncan Brack, Mark Pack, Deir- significant local majorities. being better of government which would have dre Razzall, Hilary Muggridge, Even then, on the positive made the Liberal Democrats look Sue Slade and all the heads of office, side, there was a wide consen- funded than weak, indecisive and unwilling to researchers, parliamentary assis- sus that, despite all these issues be in politics to take any kind of tants and HQ staff who helped me and disappointments, the coali- in previous power. So he persuaded his party to arrange and, in difficult circum- tion had worked well in a number to plump instead for the deep blue stances, hold on to the interview of respects. On the whole, rela- years. sea of serious talks with the Tories, times we managed to achieve. tions between Liberal Democrat followed by a fixed five-year term and Conservative ministers in each of working with Tories across the Adrian Slade was the last President ministry had been good and much board. If the party conference of of the Liberal Party, from Septem- that was Liberal Democrat in origin 2009 had been more willing to ber 1987 to March 1988, and first joint had been achieved, particularly in listen to Vince Cable and Nick interim President, with Shirley Wil- the Treasury, Work and Pensions, Clegg’s warnings about the acute liams, of the newly merged Social & Business Innovation and Skills, difficulty of delivering on the tui- Liberal Democrats, from March to July Energy and Climate Change and in tion fee promise, life might have 1988. Between 1981 and 1986 he was the Home Office with Lynne Feath- been easier for him but conference the Liberal member for Richmond on erstone’s tireless work in bringing decided to dictate that crucial piece the Greater London Council and leader about the same-sex marriage bill of the 2010 manifesto and the MPs of the Liberal/SDP Alliance group. and her equally important fight in chose to sport pledge placards in He stood for parliament four times, International Development against support of it. three times in Putney (1966 and twice female genital mutilation. But most So it was hardly surprising that in 1974) and once in Wimbledon (1987) of that had appeared to go unno- my most poignant interview was polling the highest Liberal (or Liberal ticed by the public. Credit was in with Nick Clegg. He had had most Democrat) vote yet to be achieved in very short supply. to gain or lose from the coalition either constituency.

Journal of Liberal History 88 Autumn 2015 31