Minnesota Youth Gang Research Project Minnesota Historical

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Tape 55 Interview with LOS 23 year old Mexican American Saint Paul Latin Disciple

Interviewed by Kate Cavett Hand in Hand Stillwater Correctional Facility Tuesday August 4, 1998 ,08 KC: What name can I use for this interview? L: Los, KC: Is that how most people know you, as Los? Project L: Well they know me by a couple different nicknames as I was growin up ya know, childhood, Ya know some a the homies make fun a you an the names stick wich you ya know, So I mean, but Los is what I prefer cuz sound better, I guess, KC: Is that going to give you enough anonymity where people wouldn't recognize you so you can feel like you can speak freely, Los? L: Well I don't feel uncomfortable about nothin that I've, ya know,Society myself, ya know, So even if they do recognize me I'm ok with that, Research KC: OK. KC: And how old are you? L: 23 years old, Gang KC: We were just chatting about growing up and some of the decisions that you made, Making decisions not to go to school and to be withHistorical your homies, What was it about being with your homies that was more fun than going to school? 2,00 L: Me being able to do whatYouth I wanted to do at that time, ya know, Instead a teacher tellin me, well you gotta do this homework. Instead I could say, well I'm jus gonna .. .I'm gonna go down here an play some basketball, ya know, I'm gonna, ya know, whatever, I'm gonna go to the park an jus sit back drink a few beers with my homies or whatever, ya know, Thas what I wanted ta do,Minnesota ya know, My freedom, I guess, KC: Why is freedom so important to you? L: I guess jus from growin up, always havin ta do what cher rna told ya ta do, ya know, Wantin taMinnesota be an adult so bad, wantin ta do things that cher rna an dad an them, your older sisters an brothers could do, but you couldn't cuz you were younger. KC: How old were you when you kind of took all your own freedom and really felt that you were an adult? L: I tried when I was like 12, but my rna wouldn't let me until bout 3 years an finally let it.. ,slack up on me, but.. ,fer about three years my rna, me an my rna battled over it, argued, ya know got a couple butt whoopins, but...I dunno, I tried at 12, I hafta say bout 14, 15 is when I really started bein able ta do, ya know stay out later an do things that I wanted ta do, Los 2

KC: Is that because mom got tired and decided that she wasn't going to be able to control it anyway or because ..... well, how did it happed. Because still 15, 16 to be able to do what you want is kind of young. L: Well my rna jus figured well he's gonna do it so as long as he tells me what he's doin an I know what he's doin, it will be better than not knowin what he's doin an him jus runnin off, ya know bein mad an ya know out there actin crazy or whatever. My rna figured well, hey at least I know what he's doin, ya know, I know where he's at I can call over there an say whadaya doin son? ya know, woo, woo, woo ... so then she started ta be a little more comfortable, still had our ups an downs, but she was startin ta loosen on the rope ya know. Loosen up slack, let me go, ya know. 4.14 KC: When did you first hear about gangs, families, affiliations? Project L: First what? KC: Hear about what the general public calls gangs? You know when were you first aware of organizations? L: Ah, probably about 9, 10. KC: What did you think of them then? L: I really didn't pay em no mind, cuz they really weren't tOO ... Societytoo bad around us. I mean back then it was jus the homies, ya know, it wasn't reallyResearch considered a gang, it was jus ya know people that kicked . .I see the older guys ya know hangin out. But I mean they were jus hangin out havin fun with girls, ya know, partyin, drinkin, smokin weed, whatever ya know, jus havin fun, ya know. But it wasn't really considered a gang, at least not up here ya know. They were jus, ya know, friends. BigGang group a friends, thas all. KC: When did you first start gettin involved with this type offriends. This kind oflarger group of friends? Historical L: Bout 13. KC: What was your first involvement?Youth 5.19 L: Jus smokin weed. Jus ya know gettin high ya know. Listenin music, ya know, doin tatoos an watchin people get tatoos an jus .. jus wantin ta hang out wid em ya know. Older guys, ya know, they could get things for me that I couldn't get, weed, alcohol, ya know. Things that other people didn'tMinnesota wanna let me get. KC: How did you happen to choose the organization that you chose to become affiliated with? L: WellMinnesota a lot a ... a lot a my friends chose it first ya know. A lot a the people I grew up with since I was 5 years old ya know, they were with it, ya know, an for few years they were with it, a couple a my friends were with it for a few years before me, ya know. I use ta see, ya know, I use ta see what they do. I'd hang out wid em an it jus became a way a life. Ijus seen .. ya know I jus seen somethin that I liked. I seen what they were doin, ya know. Even though there was a lot a negativity, there was still ... there was still things that they were tryin ta do that wasn't negative, but they jus didn't have the resources, ya know. So, I mean I liked what they were doin an I wanted ta do the same, ya know. 6.29

(., KC: What all did you like about it and what all were they doing that you liked? L: Well when I was growin up ya know it was jus, ya know, the ... the money ya know. I mean there was a little bit a money, not ya know multi-millionaires but I mean, ya know, you be able ta go ta the store when you wanted to, you had change in your pocket ya know, stuff like dat. Ya know, I mean hangin out places with older people ya know the girls were there all the time, drinkin ya know, weed an then it was always ya know, you was never alone, ya know what I mean, wherever I went any time a the day I could always have a friend wid me, ya know I mean there would always be somebody there wid me, regardless what I was doin. Playin basketball or if I was jus sleepin over at somebody's house, ya know there was somebody there ya know. An ya know there was a lot a things they did that I liked, ya know. I mean, it wasn't always negative things. Everybody thinks it was negative, but it wasn't. It was jus things that we did jus ta .. .jus ta have fun ya know. We was Projectyoung ya know, we was kids ya know. I mean it started gettin rough ya know at a young age, but...but that wasn't by our choice ya know. I mean we were ... we were affiliated but we didn't go around ya know I mean tryin ta pick on people or like that or nuttin like that. Ya know we jus have fun an then people jus seen how much fun we were havin an jus cuz they weren't affiliated wid us, or becuz they were affiliated wid somethin else then they wanna start tryin ta inflict harm on us, ya know. Society 7.S7 Research KC: Kind of sounds like they were jealous of how much fun you were having. What were the kinds of things that then they did that created it getting rough for you? L: Well jus talkin ... talkin bad about us, ya know, I mean jumpin like ... ya know catch one or two homies by themselves an jump on emGang or, ya know I mean shootin at em or tryin ta stab em or ya know jus stuff like that. Ya know I mean there was ... there was a lot a things they did to us that we would never think a doin taHistorical them, for the simple fact ya know we had more morals then that, we had ... even though ya know we were gang bangers or whatever they wanna call it. I mean thereYouth was, there's certain things that you jus don't do an I mean they did a lot a things ta us that ya know I mean we were like - hey, what we do ta deserve this. Y a know, I mean jus cuz we got a little more money than you guys or jus cuz the women like ta be around us more ya know I mean that...come ... come ... we don't knock you for what you is, ya know. As long as you come in peace an you jus come ta kick it wid us, we ain't got a problem wid that. YaMinnesota know, but I mean they wanna take, ya know, like they controllin us ya know. An the older dudes wanted us ta do what they told us ta do, no we ain't gonna do dat yaMinnesota know, we're doin our own thing ya know, we're havin fun, thas all ya know. An they didn't like dat, ya know, they jus... where I grew up on the West side they didn't like that ya know. I mean we didn't start nuttin wid nobody, we ain't tryin ta hurt nobody. Course we, ya know, we had our little fist fights ya know, but I mean thas how it was, thas how it was when I grew up. Even when I was younger, before I was gang bangin an goin ta school, ya know you had a problem wid somebody ... after school you guys went to the park, ya know. Ten minute fight, whoever won ya know, got up ya know stickin his chest out, the other dude wipe the blood off, get up go home an if he ain't satisfied he come back tomorrow say let's go again, ya know thas how it was ya know. An thas how it shoulda been, but people

couldn't accept jus gettin beat up no more, ya know they wanna try an stab you or try an shoot you or ya know beat chu, jump you an stuff, it jus got outa hand. 9.54 KC: We're talking in more generalities, but the group that you were hanging around with had a specific name. Were there older guys that, or was it your group that kind of formed your organization? L: My organization didn't originate where I live ya know. It originated in a whole nother state but it was for the betterment of our culture, thas how it originally started. Ya know I mean, it was for us, ya know what I mean, the older brothers ya know they tried doin right becuz they got tired of ya know maybe the Whites or the Black dudes or the Indian dudes always comin over beatin up on the Latino dudes or always ya know runnin offwid the Latin women ya know. They said, hey man, ya know, who's gonna take care a Projectus? Ya know. So they tried puttin somethin together ta take care, ya know, stand on theirs. Let everybody know we ain't gonna let cha all come over here an jus push us around. Ya know, I mean you guys come over here like that wich you chest out, we're gonna put ours out farther, a little bit farther, ya know. KC: What's the name of your organization? 11.03 Society L: Latin Disciples. Research KC: So, it started in another state. Was there someone here that was educating the young brothers as far as the cultural pieces and how the Latin Disciples could support them in being stronger Latino's? L: Well it didn't originally start like that.Gang Ya know other gangs had came over, ya know. Like when I originally started I wasn't a Latin Disciple, I was ya know a Gangster Disciple, ya know, but thas under a whole new.. thas underHistorical some basically Black, ya know, organization. But ah ... ya know I mean, the Latino Brothers C & A well this brother wants, ya know this brother we gonna enlightenYouth em, we gonna pull em the right way, ya know. I mean, I'm not sayin tha the Gangster Disciples is bad ya know, but I mean as far as the ones tha I was ... ya know they .. they were recruitin young dudes ta do their dirty work, ya know. Not teachin em what they was suppose tao Not showin how ta be a man. Jus teachin em - hey, go out there an be a hood, make some money, ya know, an we'll get high, ya know. Tha type a stuff, ya know, the brothers,Minnesota ya know. An then it took some, a couple brothers that I know that came over here from there an said -look man these dudes is not treatin ya all right, this is how it's sposeMinnesota ta be an thas, ya know, how a lot a the brothers tha I know said - hey, well we goin to where we belong with our people ya know, our roots, ya know. An thas how I became what I am, ya know. 12.35 KC: What were the kinds ofthings that you were taught as far as being proud about being Latino? When the Latino brothers came in and said - ok, we're not just gonna be Gangster Disciples, we're gonna be Latin Disciples, what were the values and the cultural pride pieces that you were taught? L: Well there jus a lot a different things ya know I mean they wanted all of us ta get our

educations. Ya know, I mean they didn't like the fact that we stopped goin ta school. Ya know they were like, ya know we understand if you don't wanna go ta school, thas cool, but ya know go get yer G.E.D. have somethin ta hold you up, ya know, when you get older. Have somethin ta say - hey, ya know I can get a job ta support my kids, ya know, an have that little footstep. I mean there was a lot a like . .I grew up here in Minnesota all my life so I mean an I grew up around my rna. My rna she speak English, ya know, so I grew up speakin English, ya know, I didn't know too much as far as ya know my own language, but them .. them brothers like ... hey, well we'll ya know we'll help ya know, we're not. ... ya know that weren't gonna sit there an tease us like a lot a other dudes tha weren't wid us, ya know, tha were jus mohows( sp) or whatever wetbacks you wanna call em from down in Texas an California an all that. Ya know come up here an call us ya know fake ... ya know fake Mexicans this an that for the simple fact cuz we didn't speak Spanish,Project ya know. The other brothers said - hey, well we jus ..... jus listen when I talk to you an I say somethin to you ask what I meant, ya know .. ask, ya know an you'll learn. I mean ... thas how they, they taught us a lot a different things, ya know. They gave us more morals than we had, ya know, like I said we were out there wild ya know when I was first started, ya know I didn't really care, but I mean there was, like I said there was things you jus didn't do. An them brothers let us know, you look..ya know what I mean, if you got a problem with somebody,Society you handle that with that somebody, you don't go to that somebody'sResearch auntie's house or that somebody's mama's house or whatever ta finish your guys's businesses, ya know, you jus don't do that. Ya know, I mean like, ya know like gangs, ya know like I told you before we're not a gang, ya know. We don't consider ourselves gang members. An, gangs do drive-bys, we didn't do that, I mean yeah sure there's probably someGang people who done it, ya know, that are .... but they ... it ain't like they tell us - well if you got a problemHistorical an you can't do it, well jus go by his house an shoot em. It was ya know - hey man, you got a problem with this dude catch em, you'll see em somewhere. Ya know, I mean you guys do what chu gotta do, but I mean don't go to somebody's house anYouth shoot through their windows or through the doors or walls, who ... who could be behind there, ya know ,little kid, their mama, their. .. .I mean you jus don't do that. .. thas bad business. Would you want that done ta yer rna's house or yer .... ya know, you gotta treat em how you would like ta be treated. If you wanna, gotta problem wid me, you wanna whoop me, well then whoop me, ya know, you see me at the park, ya know see me walkin into the storeMinnesota or somethin ya know we could have our business there, don't take it ta people's houses, ya know. I mean thas .. thas bad business man. 15.31 Minnesota KC: What other values did they teach you? Because that's one ofthe critical pieces that we don't, most people, I mean I've certainly learned to recognize it in organizations. You talk about the people handling business, and you talk about respect for education. Were there pieces taught about how you respect each other or how you treat each other? L: Ab, most definitely, ya know I mean, we're all considered brothers, ya know. It ain't ya know, we're homies second, but we're brothers first, ya know. An ya know I mean we think, ya know our family ... our family's always first an head a line, but I mean you can't get no closer ta family than how we is. Ya know, I mean they jus... .it jus you gotta treat em <." COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 === 651-227-5987 Los 6

like ... .like we got women that are in wid us too, ya know, in the same thing. An ya know I mean we treat them with the utmost respect, ya know, I mean sometimes we get that street slang of callin women bitches an this an that, ya know. Learnin how ta talk off a TV or records or whatever, but thas jus somethin you don't do, ya know. I mean ifthas your sister ya know you call her ya know respectively, you don't say - oh yeah that bitch, ya know this .... you don't do that ya know. Thas bad, ya know I mean your homies you don't talk bad about em you don't do things wrong wid em. I mean you got a homie an you see somethin happenin ta one a his family members an he's not there, ya know, you gonna ... you gonna stand up for the person regardless ya know if you dislike em or not. Ya know what I mean, me an this person couldn't get along for shit, ya know, but thas our business. But when it comes ta me seein him get beat up or hurt or her gettin slapped up by her boyfriend or somethin like that, I'm not gonna stand for it, ya know. For the Projectsimple fact that thas my fiiend ... thas my homies cousin or thas my homies sister or whatever, ya know. It's things like that you can't...can't let tha ride, ya know. 17.32 KC: What about in the role of women, were they able to achieve rank in the Latin Disciples? I mean could they work their way up? I mean you and I know one young women who is very, very bright and knew a lot about how to run people and everything.Society Could she have achieved rank (Angie - his sister)? Research L: I don't see why not. Ya know they're not frowned upon, but...but, like I said it's jus in the culture in general ya know that the Latino ladies like ta take the back role, ya know, they like ta be behind their man, ya knOw. But, ya know, they will step up to the front line, if..if need be ya know, thas how they are ya know.Gang I mean thas jus in their genes, ya know, I guess. Thas how Latino women are, ya know, they ... they .. .I don't see why not, I don't got a problem wid nuttin like dat. I don't got aHistorical problem wid .. .if..ifthis woman knows a lot about ya know, got a lot a smarts, I ain't gotta problem with listenin to what she got ta say, ya know. I ain't got a problemYouth wid helpin her out or followin the way tha she goin, ifI know that she's doin it right, ya know. If she's right, hey I .. .I roll wich you. I ain't gotta problem wid that. 18.4- KC: I interviewed a young woman who called herself Angie and she identified as being a Latin Disciple. What sheMinnesota told me was that I never could get rank. She said yeah, I could start the younger set and I could run it and people respected me an guys would do what I say because I Minnesotawas' smart enough to know how to run it, but I never could achieve any ofthe position rank titles, because it 's just plain not allowed in that organization. So, you're seeing it different than what she perceived she was taught at the time? L: Well it depends. I mean, in general, a man ain't gonna want ... ya know ifI gotta girlfriend, ya know, she could be the downest girlfriend in the world, ya know. She could carry, say I got guns an dope an all that that I carry everyday wid me, ya know, I ain't gonna want her ta carry my dope an get in trouble. We got kids, whatever, ya know what I'm sayin, there's a lot a women that are wid us tha got kids, ya know. We're not gonna put them out there, ya know what I'm sayin an say - hey, ya know go out there an get killed, or hey go out there,

ya know, an do this an go to the federal prison for 30 some years. Ya know what I mean, what about your kids, ya know what I'm sayin. I mean, we don't want to either, we don't want to get in no trouble, we don't wanna die either, ya know, but I mean a kid is more attached to his mother, I mean she carried him for nine months inside of her, ya know, I mean ... .like I said, I don't. . .I don't agree with what she said, ya know, as far as what she said as far as that becuz I believe she coulda. It's jus, either she wasn't doin somethin right or she jus ah ... was doin somethin real bad. Ya know, she was doin somethin that them brothers didn't like, ya know. An, ya know they ... they say, ya know, obviously they didn't see the leadership skills ta do that part, ya know. KC: (Unclear) L: See, well that was different though, ya know I mean, I see it... but she was never... that person that you takin about, she was never .... she was never spose ta even beProject in the organization, ya know what I'm sayin. She was more around it, ya know, she ... she wasn't like dat ya know. We didn't want her that way, ya know I mean she got two brothers that are in it, ya know an both of us, we don't agree wid it. But then again we can't tell her she can't ya know. Thas her right, ya know, if she wants to ya know what I'm sayin. KC: But, her younger brother was the one that initiated her, ya know, he beat her in. L: Well see ... I mean thas .... Society KC: Did you know that? Research L: I didn't, no ta tell you the truth I didn't know dat...like I said I'm jus use ta that person bein around us a lot ya know an jus bein there, ya know. I never considered her one of .. one of us, ya know. Ya know what I'm sayin an .... KC: (Unclear) Gang L: I mean you don't hafta get beat up ta be in our organization, ya know what I mean. Ya know like I said, maybe a gang, yeah ... ya know,Historical but that ain't us. We don't wanna ... ya know you don't gotta take a ass whoopin, ya know some choose to, ya know. Some ... some people don't trust other brothers,Youth say -hey I don't really feel comfortable wich you, but you wanna be down wid us well ok well you gotta do this in order for. ... to get ... make me feel comfortable. An if that brother says - ok, well then I'll do that cuz I want chu to know that I'm down. Ya know thas a different story, but I mean, you don't.. .. that ain't...you don't hafta get initiated. There's a lot a brothers that ... tha jus from out a respect, jus from how they carry them self whenMinnesota they came to ya know this organization, like look I seen how you guys are, you know how I am, ya know an I like what chu guys are tryin ta do I wanna be down wichMinnesota you. Ok, well look we ain't gonna put a pistol in your hand and say go out there cuz this brother might not be like that, he might be a computer expert. Ya know hey bro you can help, ya know, us try an get some a these younger brothers ta start businesses, ya know. Open up a shoe store, a food store, whatever, ya know, put some jobs in the Latin community, ya know what I'm sayin. Hire some more Latino's, ya know young kids that wanna get a after school job, ya know. An, ya know, he might be able ta set that business up, ya know I mean you can't tell somebody that ain't a gunslinger ta sling a gun, ya know. An there's a ... a lot a brothers that ain't, ya know like dat. There's two sides ta everything ya know, an I mean like me .. .I grew up more rough, but I choose to be that way, ya know what

I'm sayin. I don't hafta be that way, ya know ain't nobody sayin - well you gotta be ya know the dope seller or you gotta do this, ain't nuttin about tha ... ya know most a the brothers that I know, the older brothers, tell me - hey bro you ain't gotta do dat, ya know, I mean it's cool ta get your little hustle on or whatever, but chu know you gotta start think about chu gettin older now, you gotta start thinkin about cher family, ya know. You got a kid out there, this an that, ya know you gotta start thinkin about where you're goin man, where you gonna be in 15 years, ya know. You gonna still be in here wid us. Ya know, I mean I got homies that ain't never gonna get out. Ya know an I feel bad for them, becuz I know how tha is. Ya know, I mean society looks at em, well he killed somebody. But chu didn't know the whole thing ta that story, ya know. You jus know what the police think they know or what the media gettin from the police or people in the neighborhood. They don't...they don't know the whole story of what happened, I mean that dude could a beenProject a child molester or whatever an the homie jus got mad an snapped an kilt em. I mean it wasn't like he wanted ta kill em, but I mean .... ya know things happen like dat. But yeah, ya know now his life's gone, ya know.

24.37 KC: You talked about wanting to change and that the homies areSociety saying ok, ya know ya need ta look at some changes. What changes do you needResearch to make so you don't end up back here again? L: A lot a changes. Ya know I mean there's a lot a different changes, ya know. First off I had ta finish my education. Ya know I mean when I got here, ya know, Ijus .. .1 wanted ta lay back an kick it wid the homies, ya knowGang an jus have fun an eat an ya know go play ball an hand ball an all dat. Ya know the homies saw me, ya know, yeah it was cool for awhile, but they tol me - look bro, ya know you finishHistorical up your school. I was - naw. Well whadaya wanna do? I said, I want to, but chu know later on ya know, I got time. Thas how I looked at it. They said bro youYouth never know what could happen ya know, you could get a grant an get out next week, ya know, be on the street. An then what are ya gonna be, ya gonna be out there wid nuttin. Ya know go ta school, ya know go kick it over there in the other block for a little bit, ya know, even if there ain't no homies over there go kick it over there .... work on ... thas even better for you, for the simple fact that the homies ain't there ta distract you. You, you by yourselfMinnesota .. you can go do wha chu gotta do, finish your education an if you want to get into a VT, ya know or whatever, if you don't come back an kick it wid us, ya know. I Minnesotamean jus as long as you got that, like I said, that G.E.D. thas all I got. But that G.E.D. gonna help me out a lot when I get out there, ya know. KC: So you've got the G.E.D. But then you've done more education, too. 26.00 L: Little bit. Like right now, 1...1 switched from ... ya know I was gonna go to a VT, but then I switched an I'm in a welders, ya know, I'm out there welding. Ya know, I mean an there's a homie over there. The homie's been over in the house, the block that I'm in now, there's been a homie thas been over there almost a year, ya know, by himself But, he was do in what he hada do, he's a electrician, ya know, he's doin what he's gota..... thas a ... like five years ta

get that degree. I mean, but yet when he gets it, thas a good trade. He been over there ya know when I came over there. I said I'm gonna go kick it wid the other hornie over there, ya know, I'm gonna go over there an start weldin. An the other hornie said, ok well come back though ya know when you get done. Do wha chu gotta do, come back when you get tired a your work or whatever, check it out, jus get another job over here ya know. I mean there's been a lot a different things I tried. The hornies got me inta upholstery for awhile. I was doin upholstery, I know how .. .I could made a couch for you right now. KC: Wow, so you've learned two trades then while you've been here? L: Yeah, I learned how to do upholstery an weld, ya know. KC: That's great. What's a VT? 27.06 L: A VT is like a, ya know, like a training course ya know. WhereProject you get a certificate of degree an all dat. Like what I'm doin, I'm jus weldin. I'mjus .. .I'm doin product, ya know, jus cuz I already know how ta weld, ya know instead a me goin ta school for it, ya know, instead a like goin ta school ta be a lawyer, if say somebody knew how ta do, they jus do it ya know, thas what I did. Ya know I jus went inta welding becuz I already knew how ta weld a little bit an as I jus out there working wid it, I get better an better. An VT is like where you go to school, an they teach you well this is how you weld thisSociety or this is what this means on a blueprint. Ya know, but I mean where I'm Researchat they teach you that anyway, I mean it's basically as you go, ya know. Ya know I mean could tell you how ta spot weld an all that different stuff, but they .. .I learn from watchin them people out there. KC: So, it's on the job training is what you're doing? So, you've gotten a G.E.D. and you've learned to do two trades, on the jobGang training, while you've been in here. In how much time? L: Bout a year. KC: Wow that's great. Historical L: Like I said, I had more ... the older hornies this is more of an adult prison, ya know, this .... where I was at beforeYouth St. Cloud an Oak Parks nuttin but negativity. An urn, they don't wanna do nuttin but fight, this an that, ya know. I mean I started my G.E.D. at Oak Park, but I was only there for a short period, ya know, that ain't no place ta be for nobody, but .. an then St. Cloud, it's nuttin but young dudes, ya know, I mean an it wadn't no hornies tryin ta push me, not tryin ta gimme that step. Everybody there was lookin up ta me, so at that time I was jus tryin ta, ya knowMinnesota show, ya know jus kick it wid em, ya know. Tryin ta get them, pull them away from some a the dumb stuff they was doin, ya know, but then again I would .. .I would fallMinnesota inta the dumb stuff too ya know an like I say - ya know, I mean I jump outa the window for some a the hornies over there. Ya know, even though I try an help them sometimes, ya know, Ijus didn't like somethin an I jump out the window. Here, I got the older hornies, they tell me - no, don't do dat, ya know. Think about it, think about wha chu doin, think about wha chu doin right now. KC: When you talk about the older hornies, how old are the older hornies? 29.2--- L: I got older hornies 29,30 ... 30 years old. Ya know I mean, 38 ya know, I mean I got some hornies that are up there, ya know, I mean ... they're ... an it's not jus... it's not jus my

organization, ya know what I mean, my homies. Ya know there's brother in here, Latino brothers, ya know that teach... that teach ... not even, I can't even jus say Latino brothers, ya know, I mean there's a lot a older White dudes that are old timers that been here for, I'm talkin about damn ... since I was in diapers. An I mean there's things they tell me an sit down an talk ta me about things that I never knew, ya know. I mean, jus.. .jus knowledge. Things that I never would think about, ya know. An they jus sit down an kick it wid me. Say did you know this, Los, an start tellin me, show me things. An I'm like man, I didn't know dat, I never knew dat. Now I do though, now it's always gonna be wid me, I'm gonna ... somebody asks me about it, I can tell em .. yeah I know .. J know a little bit about dat or ya know, it's jus...

KC: Los, do you have to be in an organization to survive inside a prison?Project 30.28 L: In the cities? KC: In prison. Do you have to be in an organization? Because I've heard if you're not in an organization you don't have any protection, ya know, there's all the stories on the streets that you know you an get raped, you can have a lot of horrible things happen to you if you don't have an affiliation. Society L: In the joint, it's more like that yeah. Ya know, I Researchmean like I said, I was doin this on the street so I mean, I really couldn't say yeah, becuz I didn't come in like that. I didn't come in jus anybody an then say, ok I wanna be wich you guys, ya know, cuz I was scared or this or that. As soon as I came in the door, ya know, everybody knew thas Los, he ya know crazy he jus got in this ya know he run wid themGang an thas how it was when I came in, but I mean ... a lot a prisons, I could agree wid that, ya know, I mean. A lot a people join up, a lot a people ya know, some people like some White dudes,Historical they use ta hang wid Black dudes on the street, when they get into prison they cut em off Hey, I'm not, I'm gonna kick it wid my ... whatever you wanna Youthsay ... their (unclear) brothers or somethin become skinheads, ya know, racists, period ya know. I mean thas jus how it is sometimes ya know, but I mean, ya know in this particularly, you don't have to. I mean if you come in by yourself as long as you stand on what you are, ya know an be a man, ya know I don't know too many people mess wich you. Course you gonna have yer problems, I mean cuz you can't keep a hundred an some men in the same block anMinnesota expect no problems to be ... occur between, ya know, each other. I mean there's gonna be problems over little stuff that, ya know, we laugh about later, like damn we wasMinnesota trippin over that. Ya know I mean, but in here there more serious, ya know, as far as you know over little peddlely stuffya know. Some people jus... are like that. KC: Because they're here for a lot longer? Because some of these guys are lifers? L: Yeah, of course, I mean you got somebody, like you say, you got somebody who's got life sentence ... everything, this pen means a lot to em ya know. Cuz I mean it ain't like they can jus go to the store an buy a new one like this, ya know. I mean, there's a lot a things tha mean a lot to these guys, but then again there's a lot a these guys that jus wanna bully people, ya know, an this an that, ya know. But, they only bully the weak, ya know, they don't bully somebody they knows gonna stand up for themselves ya know. They know you gonna fight,

you ain't gonna jus let somebody take somethin from ya or you ain't gonna let somebody talk to you any way. Then, they don't too much mess wich you, ya know. Ok, well he's a ... he's a good dude, man, he .... an ifhe's yer friend, ya know he's gonna be yer friend, he's not gonna be ... them type a people they can be so low, ya know, they can, they can survive like that. 33.16 KC: That self respect, respecting yourself and standing up for yourself is that something that you learned from your organization? L: Well, I learned that from my neighborhood, ya know. I can't say too much for my organization, a course yeah they teach me that too. But, I mean I learned that as I grew up, ya know. I mean in the neighborhood, the West side, the ya know the older, ya know my sisters, my family, ya know, cousins, ya know jus homies cousins .... hey, Los ya can't let tha ... ya know, you jus ya know .... woo, woo, woo ... feel better about Projectyour self an this an that, ya know. I dunno, my rna taught me a lot a self respect, ya know. I mean she there's a lot a things there, ya know I feel real bad about, she say it's alright, it's not your fault ya know. Even thought somebody might say it's your fault, it ain't, ya know, jus sit down an think about it, sit down an look at the whole picture, ya know. Even ifyou did it another way, still could a came out that way, ya know. Or, like my homie, when he got shot when I first came ta jail, my best friend out a ... from the street, from the street yaSociety know I mean me an Du were like siamese twins, you couldn't break us apart Researchfor nothin. Ya know, about a month after I come to jail, he gets shot, paralyzed, from his waist down. Well he got shot in the neck, but he got ... he can move his arms an hands now. But, I mean he paralyzed, ya know. I felt real bad, cuz I was like ... this dude I was spose ta be there for em, ya know. Regardless I was spose ta be there, with him, maybeGang things woulda been different. Even though maybe I mighta been doin a life sentence, cuz I'd a killed the dude that tried shootin em first or even after he shot em. But, ya know an then myHistorical rna said, look maybe that happened for a reason, ya know, now he goin ta school for computers, ya know that changed his life. Ya know, before he didn't, ya knowYouth he didn't care about gettin a job or education or this an that. We both didn't. Ya know basically we jus out there havin fun, ya know. An then when that happened ta him, he said - hey, ya know what I'm sayin, he looked at ya know, I'm still .. .I'm still here, ya know, they shot me but I'm still here now I can go ahead .... he, he in college goin ta computer courses an all that. An I'm doin what I gotta do, when I get out ain't nothin gonna change, ya knowMinnesota I'm still gonna be there wid em, ya know. A lot a the other friends, the homies backed away, ya know like he was a burden now, ya know, becuz he couldn't carryMinnesota himself or walk now. Ya know an they didn't wanna spend that time ta carry em up three flights a stairs an stuff, ya know. An those really ain't, those really weren't the homies, ya know. Not as far as I'm concerned, ya know, yeah they might be affiliated or whatever, but they were never really a homie then if they can't, ya know, sit there an say - well, I can help this bro .. .! mean when I get out there I'm gonna help em, ya know, I mean .. .I'm never, never tum my back on em jus cuz he can't walk, ya know, or jus cuz he can't do somethin with his hands perfect or cuz he looks a certain way, ya know an people might stare at em. Hey, if they wanna stare thas on them, ya know. KC: Do you write to him now?

36.11 L: I talk to em, I write to em. I been neglectin my writins lately, but ah .. .I'm .. .I was thinkin about em the other day ya know, lookin through my photo book, ya know feelin a little bad, ya know, seein how he is, ya know. But, like I said he's still alive thas all tha matters. KC: It took him being shot, you got arrested and you came here and from our previous conversation you'd rather not be here, you'd rather be home with your son. How do we divert other homies, the younger homies, from not having to spend ..... cuz what? You have five years that you have to spend in here? L: Seven. KC: Why are you here by the way? L: First degree assault, I got into a fight an I hurt the dude pretty bad, ya know. I mean I didn't stab him or shoot him or nuttin like dat, I jus, ya know, hurt em realProject bad. KC: You know, you've been through it. What can be done? Is there anything that can be done for your little brother, for other younger homies so that they can get the good out of the organization without doing the activities that create them to maybe get shot or have to spend time in prison? L: You jus can't.. .. like I say on the street ya know, it was different. I didn't have what I got in here ya know as far as homies. Ya know on the street, ya know,Society we was real angry at what was bein done to us, how people were treatin us.Research So, so we were actin the same way we were bein treated, ya know. I mean jus.... other people treatin us bad, so we acted bad, ya know we did what they did, twice as bad as they could do it, ya know. Jus ta let em know, look yeah you guys can do this, but we can do it better. Ya know you guys might be able to hurt one of us, but we can hurt 5 ofGang you guys, ya know. Thas ... thas jus how we were ya know. An on the street, we didn't have dat, ya know, I didn't have somebody comin ta me everyday talkin about one a the homies, somebodyHistorical tha was in the same boat as I was. I didn't have somebody out there tha could ... tha could come ta me an say .. hey bro, naw don't do dat man, why don't ya go aheadYouth an go ta school, ya know, why don't you do dis, why don't. .. hey I'll come an get you after school, go pick you up an we'll go do dis after school. Ya know I didn't have tha person, then. Ya know, everybody can change ya know an like I said we're not, we're not ... we didn't originate this ta be bad, ya know it's jus somethin that the street life turned us like dat. I mean the way, the way that we were bein treated, it was either, ya know, survive, ya knowMinnesota do what you gotta do ta survive or die, ya know, period, ya know thas how it was. Even though a lot a people might say tha we don't have feelins, we got a lotMinnesota feelins ya know, I mean ... but chu jus gotta get ta know us. You'll see ya know, if you treat us with ... with respect we're gonna give you that same respect, ya know what I'm sayin. They same even more ya know, becuz for the simple fact that we're gonna respect you more for the simple fact tha chu respected us, ya know, tha you had tha out ta say - well, he ain't jus some fuckin Mexican kid thas poor an ya know this or that or somethin like that ya know, uneducated, ya know this an that, say ... hey -well, he's a cool dude ya know he jus needed a little this or that or opportunity ta do this or that, ya know what I mean. Ya jus gotta keep on ya know the kids out there that, like I said, me myself, ya know, I wanna change, but I'll never leave what I am, ya know, I'll never stop bein a Latin Disciple for the simple fact that,

ya know, I know there's gonna be a lot a people after me thas gonna be this ya know. 39.58 KC: You mean that when you get out there are people that you've done dirt to, that are going to want to do dirt to you, so you're going to ..... L: No, no I mean there's gonna be a lot a young brothers, Latino brothers, thas gonna join up this organization by their will, ya know, by whatever choice, ya know. Whether it be that they gettin beat up all the time or it's jus a neighborhood that they live in or, ya know, they jus like, ya know, how they act. An, they gonna need brothers that been through what I been through ta teach em what I've been taught, ya know. I mean all the brothers, most a the brothers that know the good, ya know the good teacher are good ... how ta hold another brother up are in jail for that purpose, for stickin up for a brother or for tryin ta help a brother out. Ya know not lettin somethin happen to a brother, ya know. Or, Projectya know, I mean there's some brothers that I know that went ta jail, jus cuz they wouldn't open their mouth, ya know. Well, ya know, police come to em ... well, you were there .. you seen what happened ... woo, woo, woo. I don't know wha chu talkin about. Well, ok well ah ... we're gonna say you did it. KC: Is it possible with your organization, or to create an organization, where we teach the young brothers the respect.... the cultural pride without having toSociety do the violence and the drug dealing, or a lot of the criminal behavior that canResearch get them sent to prison? I mean, is that possible? 41.40 L: Ya see that was never taught by this, that was taught by society in general. You see what I'm sayin? I mean, tha it .. tha... everybodyGang thinks tha thas all gangs do. See gangs originally didn't start out, ya know .... if you look to the history a gangs, it never started out as ... as, ya know from street fights. Ya know, I mean theyHistorical were jus groups a kids tha liked ta hang out wid each other ya know, originally. Ya know, but then ya know, they seen - hey this is how it's spose ... they're doin, yaYouth know I mean, the kids they .... gang members didn't go out an say -well, we gonna go out an sell dope or heroine or cocaine or this or that, ya know, I mean they ••. I didn't get in it for dat. Ya know I got in it cuz I liked ya know how they ya know ••• I liked the fun part about it, ya know. I like ya know when we'll go barbeque at the beach, ya know have all the homies an all the homies kids an all the homies girls an ya know I meanMinnesota our sisters, our brothers an even our rna's there ya know. Ta... ta have fun, like one big family. Thas... thas what I liked about it. Ya know, I mean the badMinnesota side I didn't like it, but I had ta do it sometimes, ya know. It was .•. it was ... it was survival of the fittest type stuff, ya know. KC: Is that going to have to continue, or is there a way of ..... well, I don't have the answers, the only piece of the answer that I think I have, is that the older brothers, ya know when you get out, when others like you get out. Is there a way of redirecting the younger kids, that they don't have to get into so much violence? L: See change, change always takes time though. Ya know I mean we didn't get that way jus once day - everybody woke up an said - hey we gonna start shootin at people. Ya know it took time, ya know one person did it an then another person did it an I mean it took time over

the years. It developed inta gang warfare, ya know. But, I mean yeah, it's .... it's possible but it's gonna take time. We've been tryin this. I'm .. .I'm a product of that ya know. I mean if you caught me five years ago, you'd be like - this dude's wild, ya know, this dude don't give a fuck about nuttin, he don't even care about himself How could he care about anything else. Ya know, I mean thas how it was, ya know I didn't care if! died or lived. Ya know I mean even though I had a lot a people I loved, I didn't care, ya know. But thas, thas jus how I was, ya know, I mean these brothers changed me, ya know. An thas ... thas, it's gonna happen. But like I said it's how it was, thas how it originally started. Over time though it changed into the, I mean you're gonna always have a person thas gonna say - well, I want, I like the fast life, I like gettin tha money, ya know, an he might be one of our brothers ya know. I mean we can't force em, we're still gonna love em, ya know, for the simple fact we know what he's really .... we know his soul. Ya know what I'm sayin? We know his soul,Project but .... .ifhe chooses ta do that, we can't stop em. We can talk to em, but I mean you can't make nobody do nothin they don't wanna do, ya know. KC: How did the brothers get to you? How did they make you change? Make you start caring? What was it? 44.55 L: They changed. I mean they ... they jus, ya know they was jusSociety real wid me ya know. I mean they was jus steadily on me ya know. Steadily,Research steadily ya know, not givin up, ya know. Jus steadily talkin ta me, steadily ya know givin me material ta read an you know I mean jus things that chu wouldn't think. I mean jus, ya know, like jus Los you gotta do this man, you gotta do that, ya know what I mean. Look ah you can do this, you good at this, man, do this. Ya knowGang don't give dat up jus cuz you ain't got time, man make time ta do dat. I mean thas how they was, they jus stayed on me an I mean •.. keep naggin somebody finally they're gonnaHistorical give in, ya know. Jus like, ya know, like my little brother. Ya know I mean right now it's hard for him, cuz he ain't seein ya know what I showed him out there before.Youth Ya know he seen how I use ta be, ya know, so he wants ta be that way still. He don't know how I am now. I could talk to em, but chu know, he's thinkin talks talks, walks the walks different, ya know. When I get out there an he sees - damn, man my big brother's different man, I mean oh ... he changed a lot, he gonna start changin. Ya know I mean, regardless he will start changin cuz he's gonna like what he sees in his big brother, ya know. MinnesotaHe's gonna like how I carry myself now, ya know. Before he liked how I carried myself, but tha was cuz I glamorized it, ya know. Now I glamorize somethin totally different,Minnesota ya know. KC: What do you glamorize now? L: Life, life. KC: Being alive? L: Yep. Things that ... since I been down, I lost a lot a people, ya know. Not jus through gang violence, jus in general. My grandma died, ya know things that ... that jus change you, jus like whoa man is this what I wanna do for the rest of my life, do I wanna sit in a prison, man with walls. I got times I gotta do things, ya know, I mean .. .1 got times set. Ya know, I can't jus say, I wanna go outside an lay back, like I could on the street. Ya know there ain't times

when I come .... ya know I can't get back from work an jus, ya know, go jump in the tub .. I gotta have a shower every day. Ain't no tubs in here, ya know. I mean there's things that. .that, little things that everybody took for granted out there, ya know that I mean are like that are big things. Big things now, ya know. It's jus lot a things change me, ya know. I mean, I seen a lot of grief, seen a lot a .... lot a bull, ya know. Lot a unnecessary things that could a been prevented, ya know. Lot a, I seen lot a things, man. 47.36 KC: What were the things that the brother had you read that helped you look at changing? Do you remember? L: Everything, jus always talkin ya know about me how I talk about like my girl, ya know. Ya know, I use ta talk - ah that bitch ya know, this ah the bitch ain't writin me, ah the bitch ain't come ta see me, this an that. Hey, why she gotta be a bitch? Ya know,Project thas what they'd tell me. Why can't she be your girl or your woman or ya know your baby or whatever, ya know. Why she gotta be a bitch ya know, jus things like that. Little things like that, that sooner or later they rub off Ya know I mean, sooner or later .. .I mean gradually I stopped sayin it, ya know. I stopped, ya know, I mean once in awhile I still do it once in awhile. But, I mean gradually ya know the majority a the time, ya know, I say - ya know hey my girl this or ya know or my baby this, ya know. I mean it jus took time, butSociety it was jus little things like that that they kept on me about, ya know. Little ... littleResearch ways that I seen them do in it. Like I said, I seen them doin it, ya know. Ya know what I'm sayin, I seen how they were doin, how they were carryin themselves, ya know, an I was like - damn .... ya know, I mean they still cool. They like this, ya know, I mean ... whoa I can still be cool, ya know, people still like me even though I'm this way, ya know the wayGang I've always wanted ta be, ya know, cuz don't nobody wanna be bad. Don't nobody wanna be bad, it's jus sometimes people be bad becuz society likes bad people, ya know, I mean thasHistorical what's so, ya know feeds the society. Ya know I mean thas what •• what puts you in the spotlight ya know. KC: One of the challenges IYouth always have ...... like last night I was doing a group with young men who are in chemical dependency treatment for three months, couple of them were gangster. And we get into these discussions, that if somebody dis's you, ya gotta stand up for yourself and if you gotta have a fight, you've gotta have a fight. And I try to say, hey there are other ways to stand up for yourself And sometimes standing up for yourself is walking away. Well then you look like Minnesotaa sissy, ya know, well it depends on what your values are. Ya know if you're going to get yourself into more trouble, but...of course they don't want to listen to me andMinnesota they're not going to listen to me and I know that because I'm a woman. But how .... 50.10 L: Like I said, they ain't seen it, ya know. Cuz, I mean I was the same way ya know. I didn't like bein called names, but I tell ya right now you could say ... you could call me a bitch, anything an I laugh at chu. Ya know as long as you not physically harmin me, I don't care whachu think about me. Ya know, I mean, ya know if I'm a bitch then, ya know, show me I'm a bitch. When you whoop me an treat me like ... like you know, like I'm a dog ... then, then I'm a bitch. Ya know what I'm sayin, but til then, ya know, I mean I don't care whachu do, whachu say as long as you ain't hurtin me or hurtin none a my friends or my family, I don't

care whachu do or whachu say, cuz that ain't gonna hurt me. You can say all you wanna say, ya know, I mean I'm not gonna sit here an spend not one extra day in this prison cuz you called me a name, ya know, I mean it ain't worth it ta me. You can call me everything you wanna do, but I be, I'm goin home. Ya know, sooner or later, I will be home. Thas my goal, thas my only goal right now. Ya know what I'm sayin, is ta get home wid my family, my son. Ya know stop my son from doin what I did. Ya know, I can't tell em he can't, cuz ya know jus like nobody could tell me I couldn't, ya know. But, I could try an show em. Hey, ya know even if you do do this, do it this way. Ya know, don't do it this way, cuz I tried it an it didn't work. I didn't work an I did time an did some prison time for real. KC: What I hear you saying is that a strong man knows his values and doesn't let somebody else divert them, ya know, take you on a detour. That you don't get into piddlely arguments over names and things because you know your values, you know your goalsProject and you know what's important. You know where you're going. L: Well, yeah true, but how can you consider yourself a man when somebody else can control you? When somebody else can set you ofT at will. How you a man, ya know I mean, you ain't controllin yourself, you don't own yourself if somebody can say somethin to you an make you wanna kill somebody. Ya know, I mean you don't own yourself, he owns you. Might as well say you're a slave, yaSociety know. Thas that, ya know. I mean thas how it is. I dunno why, but thasResearch how it is, I mean jus think about it. Common sense will tell you, look man I mean if you wanna do somethin .... if you in control of yourself ya know like anything ya know.. .1 dunno how ta say it, but...1 mean common sense, ya know, jus Gangwill tell you I mean you can't go off over that piddlely, ya know, it ain't worth it. It's jus not. 53.02 Historical KC: What are you going to do different for your son? How are you going to raise him different? L: I'mjus gonna work widYouth em,jus work wid em, ya know. Whenever he wanna talk, I'm gonna talk, I'm gonna listen, ya know. Whenever he got a question, I'm gonna try an answer it the best I can. The only way I know how, ya know. Ya know, I mean, I'm not gonna lie ta em, I'm not gonna shield em from nothin. Cuz ya know, I mean thas the worst thing you could do to a kid is try ta hold em away from reality. Ya know, cuz sooner or later reality might slap em in his face. MinnesotaYa know, I mean my kid wants ta know somethin, whether ya know it be about gang violence, be about murders or be about God or whatever, be about females .. .I'm gonna tell em, ya know. An I'm not gonna hide, I'm not gonna try an sugar coat itMinnesota or nothin, I'm gonna give em the hardcore reality. This is how it is, I dunno why, but this is how it is, ya know. KC: Is there a way with young Latino boys to teach them to be prouder about being Latino so that they don't have to go through that angry stage of not caring about anything, because we know that our country's racist and we know that if you don't look like your European you get shit on. At least the pattern that I think I see, is Latino or Black or Native boys in particular, they get shit on they get discriminated against, they get looked at and assumed that they're bad and so they go through this angry phase of - I don't give a shit about anything.

And then they get into all kinds of trouble. Is there a way of raising the awareness, ya know, hey, yeah .. .I'm Latino and these are the things I should be proud about and people are going to look at me and I get to always be a model for being, ya know, being proud. Do you know what I mean? 55.08 L: Yeah ... yajus gotta push em to their goals. Whatever they like, whether it be football, tennis, volleyball. All ya gotta do is push em towards it, thas all. Ya know if they wanna be a lawyer, keep pushin em, ya know. Like my little sister ( Angie) , she don't... she hate the fact that we stay on her, that we always hold in her to a higher expectation. Ya know, but the only reason we do dat is cuz we know that if we drop her, where is she gonna go. Ya know, I mean ..• she always says well you guys are always on be about this or you guys are always tryin ta tell me this•.. it'sProject not, ya know we don't wanna run yer life, but we're not gonna stop until you complete your goal an once you hit cher goal then you do whachu wanna do, ya know. Ya know what I'm sayin. Her goal is ta finish college an stable herself, once she do dat, she can do anything she want in life, ya know. An I don't care, ya know, I really don't care, as long as it's not hurtin her, hurtin my mom, my family I don't care. I mean, I'm gonna always lover her, she's gonna always be my little sister, but once she ... she gets ta that goalSociety where she set it, I know there's gonna be a lot a doors open for her, there's gonnaResearch be a lot a opportunities that a lot a people don't get, lot a young kids don't ... don't get, cuz most a them are dead, ya know. KC: What did you want to do? What could somebody have pushed you to do, Los? Well, you wanted to be a gangster, so you did that. But, before wanting to be in the organization, what was a goal you might have had thatGang somebody could have pushed you on when you were younger? L: Ta be a professional football player. TellHistorical ya the truth thas .. .I love football. I mean played five years an tha was jus.... KC: So, if somebody wouldYouth have pushed you and kept you playing football do you think it would have been different for you where you wouldn't be in prison? L: Most definitely. I'd a finished school an then ya know .. .I mean my rna pushed me, she always pushed me. She knows thas what I love, ya know, but there was jus other things, ya know, like I started smokin I mean tha slowed my down, ya know. An, I jus didn't feel like I had time for that. MinnesotaI didn't wanna be in school at tha time, ya know, I wanted ta hang out wid the guys I guess, ya know. If somebody woulda pushed me, I definitely wouldn't be in prison though.Minnesota I probably wouldn't even be affiliated with this organization, ya know. That in a way thas bad, an in a way thas good, ya know. I mean, there's bad side an there's this good side, yaknow. KC: When I listen to your story, it's almost as if your affiliation, you went through the negative side without really understanding the positive and now you're having the opportunity to learn the positive. I guess the question that runs through my mind is that if there were people that would teach the positive and really make the young people learn the positive younger, would that make a difference in some of the violence and some of the kids that have to be incarcerated?

L: Yeah, mos definitely, but thas ... thas ya know I mean, people ask how we can stop, ya know, these kids from doin what they're doin, ya know I mean an everybody wants ta.... first of all they want ta criticize em, ya know for what they are ya know, for what.. .. somethin that they love, ya know. I mean how can you sit there an tell .... talk about somethin that somebody loves so bad an then expect them ta listen to you, ya know. I mean, jus ... jus make em look like nothin an then expect them ta do whachu wan em ta do. Ya know, I mean an then I mean, it's like a hive ya know, I mean .. .1ike a bee hive, ya know you got a bee hive here, you can't send a ant in there ta change up a bee hive. Ya know ta change up their behavior, you gotta send a bee in there, ya know, somethin that they know, somethin that they're comfortable with, somebody thas been where they been. Ya know somebody tha knows how they feel at certain times. Thas what you ... thas the way you gotta do it. Like I said, I'll never leave this ... not, not ... talkin about the bad, negative stuff cuz I've Projectalready left a lot a that. Course there's always gonna be, ya know, downfalls for me, but thas ... thas jus life in general. I mean there's gonna be hard times when I'm not gonna know how ta deal with the situation an I might fall the wrong way. Ya know, but hopefully there's gonna be somebody that'll pick me up, say - hey this happened, but ya know you can do it better the next time this way or this, ya know. An like I said, I never leave this organization for the simple fact the things that I've learned from all my older homies, I'm gonna go outSociety there an teach ta all the younger homies that I know that are out there. Ya knowResearch the ones that I know are gonna do the same things I did. Ya know an thas my goal, ya know like I said, my son's my first goal to get out there an change. But, I know he's gonna be ta that age when I get out where he's gonna start fallin in, cuz it's gettin younger every year. Ya know, I mean when I started it was about ya know 14 year olds .. now it's gettin downGang ta 12 an 11 year olds. By the time I get out, my kids gonna be 9 an it's gonna be right around his age an ya know an I gotta stop him. Like I said, I gotta show em .. .1ook eh change ... ya Historicalknow I been through there. I mean I got tatoos ta show it, cover from head ta toe. Ya know, I mean I'm not lyin I'm livin proof Ya know an all the other proof is inYouth the ground, ya know all the rest a the homies is gone ya know. An, but I'm gonna teach a lot a these brothers ya know, they could ... they could still be affiliated with whatever their friends, their associates their organization or whatever they wanna call it an do good an be good, ya know what I'm sayin. An achieve what they wanna achieve, ya know. Do what they wanna do, their goals ain't burnt up jus cuz they didn't finish school or becuz, becuz theyMinnesota hang around wid a certain type a people. They can still make it, ya know, I mean I got homies that are doin things that people would sayan he's affiliated with theseMinnesota type a people but yet he's doin that .... or he's this type .... or he got a certificate for that...I mean whoa man, whas go in on here, ya know they don't understand a lot of us learnt the hard way. We, we ya know, we went through it the ... backwards ... we came in the back door. Ya know now we gonna try an show some a these brothers ta come in the front door. KC: Does there have to be a criminal element with organizations? I mean do you see your organization very much evolving helping a lot of young brothers, but that people don't have to play with the various crimes to raise money? 102.06 L: Oh yeah, tha could be, ya know. It's jus like I said it's if they choose it ya know. I could get

out there right now an be legit, open up a business, but if I choose ta help one a my homies out ta clean some a his money, I launder some money, I could do dat too, ya know what I'm sayin. I could choose ta say - hey no homie, ya know I don't wanna mess up what I got, ya know, but ah ... ya know, if you need somethin I got it for ya., ya know. Or, ifya need help I'll help you, but not that way, ya know. I mean thas all the brother's gotta do, but I mean like I said, you're always gonna have somebody there thas ... thas gonna wanna do it his way, that way, ya know an you can't stop somebody from doin it, ya know. An you can't stop lovin em, ya know. I mean may rna, like my rna, she couldn't stop lovin me becuz I chose ta do things. Ya know she could jus stay there an steadily, ya know, be in my ear an steadily ya know, pick me up when I was jus felt like givin up ... ya know ... I mean, jus not .. totally not carin. Ya know, I mean thas all you can do, I mean this can still run the same way it is wid out the crime easily, widout the violence, easily. Ya know. Project KC: Do you think that there are enough of the senior homies that are wanting to do it without the element that can take people back to prison? 103.28 L: Yeah. Yeah. Some homies fall off when they get out, ya know. An they ... they ain't got that same thing ta hold em back up ya know. Like they got. .. like I got here, ya know. I mean I could step out there an I could fall off an not have nobody Societyout there ta pick me up, but chu know I feel I'm stronger than that, ya know whatResearch I'm sayin. I mean, but some a the homies ain't ya know. Some a the homies hearts is so filled with that hatred an that..that negativity that chu know even though they patched up that heart, ya know, the patches come undone ya know an that comes back out, ya know. KC: How have you gotten through that hatredGang and that negativity? How have you let go of it, cuz it seems like you have. 104.15 Historical L: All the negativity that hit me, ya know all the things that I cared about that I never, never be able ta touch again an I'mYouth not sayin out on the street. Ya know I mean, this scared me a lot, I mean ya know, I mean I believe in ya know Jesus, I believe in the Lord. I dunno what's right or wrong to the fullest. I know what's right or wrong in society, but I don't know, ya know I don't know ifI could do everything society want's me ta do right. An I still don't know if I'm pleasin them, man. But ya know I mean they say, ya know like some people ... the philosophers or whateverMinnesota you wanna call em, say ah the worlds suppose ta end 2000 or the world spose ta end in this time .. .I mean tha scare me. Ya know I'm .. .I'm. thinkin, I'm gonna dieMinnesota in prison, ya know ... ya know, but.. . .it's hard. I mean there's things tha... there's a lot a things, my hatred left when I ... ya know like I said, there's things I'll never touch again. Ya know there's things ... .like my grandma, ya know. An tha changed me, thas whoa ya know, I'll never be able ta touch her, ya know. But, there's a lot a promises I made her that I never got ta... ta finish. Ya know I mean, she was .. ya know when I was out there ya know drugged an all dat, I got inta a fight with my girlfriend an ya know we got physical, an that hurt my grandma when she found out. I mean my grandma was like, blown away from that. Ya know I told her, ya know, I never do it again an I haven't. You see what I'm sayin there was a lot a promises that I still owe her, ya know. An when I get out there, jus cuz she's

gone, she's still watchin me, ya know, an I ... .1 gotta show her. KC: And she gets to see you all the time now, where before you could maybe keep some secrets, now you can't keep any. Is spirituality an important piece in the changes that you're making? L: No, cuz I always felt this way even when I was on the street doin the negative things ya know. I mean, I always knew .... well ya know like I said there's a Lord an all that, but at that time tha wasn't in my mind ya know it was jus shoved back ya know. I mean jus pushed it back, ya know, focused on what I was doin at tha time, ya know. An, I mean thas always been there for me, ya know. I mean in Latino culture it's strong, like I said we got. . .like when you was askin me about a .... about the brothers feelin .. .ifwe could stop em from feelin bad about themselves, ya know with all this racism an ...... 1 don't think a lot a ... at least a lot a the Latino's I grew up with, at least me, myself, even though I mean I grew up around that, a lot a racism an this an that, that only made me feel better about myself ProjectThat only made me feel love, love who I was more. Ya know, I mean jus the .... knowin the fact that ... you might not like me becuz I'm Latino, but I'm proud ta be Latino, ya know. I mean thas how it was, ya know, wid me. Ya know, I mean, hopefully thas how it is with everybody, I mean a lot a the people that I grew up around, a lot a the, ya know, Spanish .. .1 mean I'm not speakin jus Mexicans see I'm talkin about Latino's in general, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, ya know all dat. Thas how I seen em, ya know, I mean they didn't let that getSociety to em. Ya know cuz we've always been proud ofwho we was, ya know. OfResearch our heritage, ya know this an that, ya know. We've always carried our self with a lot a, ya know dignity, even though .. .in the bad times, ya know I mean like ... .like the news say, ya know, we hard workers ya know. When we do what... we like what we're doin, ya know I mean we don't complain about it, cuz ya know I mean thas jus in our heritage I guess.Gang Like I said, ya know it's things thas jus are in our genes ya know, that we don't...we don't even got a control over, it'sjus .. .jus there 108.02. Historical KC: Do you have rank in your organization? L: You could say I do. YouthSituations with certain people, you could say so. KC: I haven't asked you about the structure ofyour organization because I'm assuming you can't tell me. Is my assumption right? L: Right. KC: What else do I need to ask you, that you thought I would but I haven't been smart enough to? Minnesota L: I dunno, we jus covered a lot a ground. Talked about a lot a different issues, ya know, not jusMinnesota with the organization, ya know. Jus, ya know, in the culture an all, ya know I mean. I dunno we covered a lot, I feel. KC: In developing programs to help young men either not go into the negative part of the organization, or to help them if they need to leave organizations because the organization is into a lot of criminal, negative and angry behaviors, is it important to have a cultural component to have something in the organization to raise their awareness of being proud as far as being Latino men? L: Yeah, I mean .... yeah, I mean, it' not . .it's not... like I said, me .. for me personally, I can't speak for everybody cuz I don't know how everybody really feels. I know how they tell me they

feel, I know why they tell me they do things, but they could be lying, but I dunno. But me personally, that never had nuttin ta do wid it. My culture, ya know what I'm saying, I was always in touch wid my culture even though some people say I didn't act that way. Some people say - oh well, you act like you're Black or you act like you're White or you act like this. Thasjus cuz I'm actin of the environment I'm in, ya know. You put water over the stove it's gonna be hot, you put it in the freezer it's gonna be cold, ya know, it's gonna change to it's surroundings, ya know what I'm sayin, thas how I am, ya know. Jus like, ya know, chameleon .... no ... KC: Well, no ... part of being an organization sometimes is very chameleon. 110.4---- L: Yeah, well yeah. But, I dunno, it's jus .. you gotta, like I say you gotta get somebody you know out there ta talk to these kids ... that been there, ya know, an taProject show em. Not jus talk to em, show em, ya know, do things wid em, ya know what I'm sayin. Go out an have ... you can't, you can't..ya know I mean .. J seen movies ya know where they done how these counselors or these ex-cops or whatever try an go out there an work with these gang kids this an that. But, I mean who wants to listen, ya know, to a cop, ya know. I mean for real, ya know, I mean thas been an harassed all their young life by a cop, ya know who wants ta sit there, ya know. Like I said, a lot a my negativity came fromSociety ya know, what really, really pushed me, like I said, I lost a uncle to the cops. ResearchI .. .I despised cops for so long, I mean to this day, I still, I can't say I love em. An I can't say I agree wid all of em, but then I can't say all of em are bad either, ya know what I'm sayin. I can't blame everybody for what these certain individuals did, ya know what I'm sayin. An .... an but I did for a long time, ya know I hated em, I jus .. .I mean I do anything ta jusGang ... ta get under their skin. I do things on purpose. Ya know I'd act a certain way, I'd act like I'm hidin somethin at a store when a cop came up. Ya know, jus .. .jus like I'm hidin somethinHistorical in my jacket if I'm on a pay phone, jus so he'll come over an - ya know, hey whadaya doin? An I can laugh at em, ha ... ha I'm not doin nuttin mother fucker, yaYouth know. Thas jus how I felt, but then ya know like I said I can't blame em all for what ... what them individuals did, ya know. Thas jus like I don't want nobody ta blame me for ya know what some a my friends did, ya know, that I don't agree with, ya know, cuz their ain't every .... I don't agree with everything that, thas bein done, ya know. I mean there's things ya know, ya know that.. I got a homie thas in jail for attempted rape. I don't agreeMinnesota wid that. Thas, I mean me, I'm really in touch with my family side you could say, for the simple fact I grew up wid a older sister an my mom thas always been there. I Minnesotamean my dad was there, my stepdad was always there, ya know, but it was more ya know my mom an them. My mom, my sister were always there, plus I got five aunties, ya know I mean they were always there ya know. An I mean I don't agree wid that, but he's still my friend, but like I said I don't agree wid what he did an I don't want other people ta say - well thas Los's homie so he must be that way, cuz I'm not. Ya know, I'm not. An thas why it took a long time for me ta realize hey I can't keep doin what I'm doinjus cuz these dudes did that ya know. Sooner or later they're gonna get their punishment if they were wrong or if they weren't. Ya see what I'm sayin? Sooner or later, they'll get theirs. Ya know, there's always repercussions to whachu do, ya know. Ifyou're wrong, it's gonna come back on you

sooner or later and if you're righteous, people are gonna know. 113.36 KC: You're a great interview, Los. What do you have to do about talking to kids. How often do you have to talk to kids? L: A lot, jus like I said once every six months ain't gonna work wid it. I mean you gotta stay on it, you gotta talk ta these ... even if it's not the same group a kids, you gotta ... you gotta keep on it. Every week, ya know, at least once a week an thas.... thas givin you a lot a slack. But, I mean three, four times a week you're goin ta different schools, different things, an I mean some a these kids are gonna see you throughout their life. Ya know what I mean, yo doin this for two years straight, ya know this kid could be in ... in a 5th grade, all of a sudden he's in 7th grade and you come an you're still talkin the same thing, ya know. An, ya know, you're still teachin but yeah you grown in your mind a lot too, at thisProject time, ya know. An so there's a lot a things ... hey, this dude ain't bullshittin, ya know, yeah, yeah . .I know about him, I know about, like I said I like ta go back to the schools where I grew up, people who know me, ya know, an people who say, ya know people who think - damn I don't wanna be around that dude cuz he's crazy, ya know. But yet when I come an kick this knowledge at em an show em who I am now, they be like whoa this dude done changed, he done flipped the whole script. An he's .. .1ike I said an he's still cool, ya know. AnSociety then... then they'll change, then they'll wanna be that way, ya know. Research 1 15.03 KC: How do you think that's going to help you? By going and talking to kids on a weekly basis? L: It's gonna keep me, it's gonna keep my mind state at where it's at. Ya know, it's gonna keep my mind freshened up onGang all .•. everything that I've learned, all the positive learning that I've went through in the last four years since I been in prison. Ya know, even the bad things, ya know. It's gonnaHistorical keep em right fresh in my mind to where I don't forget, ya know, I mean cuz it's always gonna be in my face, ya know, this is always gonna be thatYouth picture, take that picture away from me an I forget about that picture come six months down the line, ya know. An then whatever new is comin in my face is what I'm gonna do ya know. I don't want that ya know I mean, cuz who knows if it's gonna be positive or negative the new picture, ya know, the new environment. As long as I always got that same picture in front a me, thas how I'm gonna be, thas how I'm gonna carryMinnesota myself, ya know. Thas how, ya know, like I said as long as you always on em kids an you're always in their face an you're sayin the same thing thas howMinnesota they're.... thas what they go wid. You're always negative, always showin em guns an drugs an money an sex an violence all that thas how they're gonna wanna be. KC: You got me convinced. 116.13