CONDENSED TRANSGRIPT
OF A MEETING
OF r-- •.' • THE COUNCIL OF STATE GOVERNMENTS
June 15, i6, 17, 1935.
Stevens Hotel —-Chicago. * ••:•.•
:Fublis/ied by : ; • The GQuncil of State Governments
••;'and':',. .••",•• ff - , fQ> The American Legislators* Association
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-i-\, ARIZONA INDIANA •• - - : , Hon. John H. Rapp, Chairman of the • Senator Jacob Weiss,. Chairman of th'e . Arizona House Coinmittee on Interstate Indiana Senate Committee on Inter Cooperation; state Cooperation, President Pro Tern. • of the Indiana Senate. \ ARKANSAS' • . ; ;". ". • •KENTUCKY..- •.•• Hon.. Charles A. Killian, Member of the Arkansas House Committee on Inter- Hon. William B. Belknap, President of :state Cooperation. '''•.'. the American Legislators' Association. Vice-President of the Council of State COLORADO i' •-•• 'Governments. Hon, Orie L. Phillips, Judge of the United , States Circuit Court o"f Appeals. Pres- w. V M^^ , ident of "the: National Conference of Hon; Douglas H. Gordon, Assistant ,- , Commissioners on Uniform.Stajte Laws. United States District Attorney. Mem-' [ M^ber of the Planning Board of the ber of the Board of -Managers of the->i Council of State Governments. American Legislators' Association. . Mr. Henry W. Toll, Executive Director of MASSACHUSETTS; the Council of State Governments. Executive ..Director of the American Hon. Henry F. Long, President of the .Legislators'Association. , National Tax Association. Commis sioner of Corporations and Taxation - : CONNECTICUT \' in'-. Massachusetts... Member of the Hon. Ernest L. Averill, President of the Planning Board of the Council of State National Association of Attorneys Gen . Governments...' • "^ ' . eral. Member of the Planning Board NEBRASKA of the Council of State Governments. Pro^i^^or Francis W. Coker, President of Senator Charles D.
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/'-.. rday Morning Session ; Ju?ie 15y 1935.. : ':
\YiE opening ^cssion of the confer- tern becsiusk the groups from the various ence'oj the Plannihg Board of the regions are not disinterested...;...... w^^ Council of'Stai/e Govcrnfnents and The third alternative:is^J^ehandlirig of the Chairmen of State Commissions and these matters by the state governments. Committees on Interstate . Cooperation The staite governments have hot.shown, up ivas called to order at ten-thirty A.M., by to the present time, arty capacity for han- the Chairman, Mr,^ Henry IV. Toll. dling their matters in a harmonious way. I think.we .will all agree that we are here When we have.state administration, we;have. working on a major problem of American conflicts. We'have 'acute competition be • governmental structure. I believe there tween--states. ^nd between regions. , We can be no doubt of that. Jt is the basic have'i-bTifusion.. And so that system, does ;' problem of governmental organization not seem to operate well. ' under a system established; by'.the Consti I't.is also the viewpoint of some people tution, which is now beginning to function that we might develop a system by which, with some difficulty. That difficulty has, the federal government might be given- within' the last three weeks, reached its broad povvers but might delegate the exer- most acute stage since, the Civil War, and cise of these powers back to theii states, we now find a condition of government in somewhat after the fashion of the Ca which every one believes that the function nadian system.- ing is unsatisfactory. We have arrived at tf--. ; soriiething alm^^t approaching a stage of : Not a Party Matter '• breakdown in the combination of govern mental and economic organization. It has: been my observation that since As I seejt,.we are confronted with three there has been such terrific pressure upon' alternatives in this coufitry all of which are ' the federal government to exercise ; the bad,, unsatisfactory, .and somewhat ifnr,; powers which it has, the constant tendency workable. What the solution is, I'm siire" is for the federal government to extend its I don't know. jurisdiction and control, whether under a The first.alternative is administration-of Republican or a Democratic administra- the economic affairs of the country.by the tipn. " federal government, under a system of uni We have come to this point. We have form rules and laws for the country as a had a gradual expansion of federal powers whole. It is not a satisfactory system be- by both Republican and Democratic ad- .cause the conditions in Callror.nia and in ministrations.. When the Republicans are Maine, in Florida arid^in Washington are in, the Democrats criticize them, for the * sb different that a: uriiforni system is not e.xtent to which they are encroaching upon applicable. «- 'states' rights. The, truth is that both The second is a system of non-uniform parties do the encroaching. - Any party in .'regulation of the country by the federal control of the federal governmenfis going . government... Under that alternative, you to expand the federal functions as far as have a system, by which a government feasible. made up, for in'stiance, of.men from New . T use the term states' rights, but I don't England, may determine a different set of like it. It is not a question of rights. It is rtile§*-for the conduct of business in New a question of utility. We have to appraise England than for the conduct pf business the states arid utilize them to the fullest in Texas. That is not a satisfactory, sys- extent to which they can be,of service, and 453
as; 454 THE BOOK OF THE STATES beyond, that, we have to make readjust lators' Association had broached the idea ments. • • of. a Standing Committee on Interstate Finally, in this gradual expansion of the Cooperation in each house of representa balloon, of fe(3eral powers,, the Supreme tives and each senate. The plan, under :...,. Court fiiids itself at a point where it must Senator Wolber's resolution, went further . . make a clean cut decision one way or the than that and incorporated the originai „ other. It pricks the balloon; Down it scheme of two legislative committees of five goes, and we are back to the interpretation senators and five representatives supple of the powers of the. federal government mented by five administrative officials ap which was current.in the 1700's, As I see pointed by the governor, all of whom woul^ it, it is a last chance for the state govern- • constitute'the state Commission on Inter ments to rtiake good, to. she^v their capacity state Cooperation. ; . for handling the economic affairs of the The. development of these legislative country under a system of local self gov committees got off to a very good start at • • ernment, . , . .^ the beginning of the current year in va-.-.' FranklyA I am very skeptical as to rious legislatures. At t)ie present time, -f : whether the states no; make good. If they there are toai states in which there is one. t ' cannot, then, the inevitable consequence is legislative committee on interstate cbopr- going to^ be—within • the, next; decade, per- eratiop: there are five others in.'which ...,haps . considerably, within it—an amend- there is a standing committee in each •.i ment to the Constitution taking, extensive • branch of the legislature;- and ^j&ere, are powers from the . states and conferrinjj!' seven states in which there have been them upoji the federal government and established state Commissions on Interstate • then.liaving-the.states operate, to a large/ Cooperation, of fifteen members each. ' extent, at the/'.sufferance" of the tederal New Jersey established the first such . ; government, to use the phrase, of the Su- : commission ;abouf April; 2, Since that preriie Court, • . - time Colorado has established such a' commission. The third ; state was Ne-. Codrdinat'ing Machinery braska, the fourth' North Carolina, the In that situation.vve.find ourselves con-! fifth Florida, the sixth was P^nsylvania, fronted with the problem of .whether or and New Hampshire is the', last addition to _. not we can develop systematic coordinat the list. . :;:. ' /• ing.machinery for the state governments. I think we all agree such a record; in There is only, one project of that sort in dicates that there is electricity, capable of < operation in the United States and that is utilization, in the state governments. The. the one upon which we are engaged today. legislatures are responsive ib this sort of There isVno other effort underiway in the sugge?ti(m. The governors are responsive - United States for developing •^systematic to it. The administrative officials are • re machinery of cooperation arid coordina sponsive to it, Tf we can.get properly or tion among the state governments. ganized,, we can really start matters • How' is that machinery going to be de moying. If we can develop comrnissions veloped? The American Legislators' A's-/ of this "Sort in every state, with Standing sociation has been thinking about it for a' committees.in each branch of eaCh legis-' • number of years arid as a result of that lature, we will have a powerful.organiza ''•• thinking it began to devise an organization tion. These ofticial groups will be in! a . "^-ti) be called the Council of State Govern- position to deal \vith any question^ where . ,• ments. About a year ago, .the develop there is occasion for cooperation between ment of a Planning Board for this Council the states, either among the fprty-eiglit was completed, and we then began to study states, or among any regional group oT precisely how the Councir should be de states; or among any group of states eco veloped in the various comnrionwealths. nomically aUied but which may not,be . Subsequently Senator Wolber of New regionally :contiguous. With that type of jersey developed the plan for a Commis- organization, regional cooperation will be . sioh on • Interstate Cooperation in ;each greatly facilitated. state. Until then the American Legis I anticipate that the time will co'me
8—. ,. > ^^ ' SATURDA%-MORNING SESSION 455 . • . • • : 7''• • f'>""! •'• -•'•'/'' when this Council will have, ih the va- be predicated on the collapse of the NR.-\ '.'ir-- rious seetions/of .the country, contact men under the recent decision of, the United ' jyho.will be going; aroynd to different rap- States Supreme; Court. Today in New itals; Let us take for .instance New York, Hampshire a'committee headed by Mr.r New Jersey, JPennsylyania, Connecticut,. Bingham, and including Senator Parkmah Ma^Iand,/" and Delaw;are, a group of of ^lassachusctts, is preparing an agenda \ regional states. Contact men would" be fpr the purpose of the Spring Lake Con going among the diffej;ent capitals, keeping ference. While the agenda may be. lim- in touch with the legislators and with the ite^^to the general subject of labor and administrative officials. Then \yhen-there industry,., it will include the , subject of • came an occasion for cooperation, whether hours of labor, maximum hours and mini it be with regard to the treatment of crim mum wages, child labor, and the allied ' inals or the prevention of crime, or whether . subject of unfair trade practices. I expect it be with regard, to milk control, to pol to receive that agenda upon my return to lution of waters or w-hatever it fiiay. be, Ne^v Jersey. I look upon this conference • ypii would have your machinery con as a striking, opportunity to move forw^ard ; ;. structed, your man avail,a61e 'and state in this subject of• interstate cooperation officials or legislators w-ould simply call on along definite lines. him. He would serve as a sortrof secretary I wish at this time, ladies ,and gentle to start conferences.between the legislative men; to invite ydu most cofdially—in the .. and administrative officials concerned name of Governor Hoffman and my col with\ these perplexing problems.. Such leagues on the commission—to participate cooperation might.take the form of com in this two-day conference.;. • •' pacts, it might take the'form pi uniform CHAIRMAN TOLL: I am glad that Senator laws, br it might take, the (orifi of coopera Wolber has developed-the-possibilities in tive administration, fegulations, and prac one particular field. Suppose We set up tices. , special groups of commissioners in the , At this point I want to ciall on Senator various states to work oiii libor compacts.' '^ . Wolber, of New Jersey^ to tell yod some They, come together---one or two represen-- thing about the way the >rew Jersey Com tatives from a state—in Boston perhaps. If mission is functioning. * I ,, they go back to their individual states and . SENATOR .JOSEPH G.jWOLBER (New' there, is no forma|^rgahization there with Jersey): In New. Jersey w:e have organized which they can work, they are isolated in^ / our commissigji and since: the ^adoption of dividuals. They have to go "arotind and.! the resolution last March; our comrnission try to sell the program to the senators. has had tw;o meetings. At the first meet They then go back and try to sell the pro ing, we/appointed sub-committ?es to con gram to the members of thd House. They, sider those problems wliich" we thoug'ht, try to sc'll the pjogram to the governor and from the viewpoint of New Jersey, should other, administrative officials. It is .a la^ be the subject of interstate cooperation. borious.process, and the chances are that ' Thosefsub-committees took up the follow-; the average/commissioner who attends ing questions: crime prevention, taxation, such meetings will riot have the opportu liquor .control., milk control, motor vehicle nity of the enthusiasm to carry hirri through regulation, labor and industry. the arduous work which is necessary to The subject which is in our minds par- realize the aims of the program. -. • ^. tictilarly, at the present i,fime, is that of / Under the New Jersey plan, after ^Ir. - labor and industry. On June 28 and Jiine Paul, Judge Hartshorne, and others go up 29 of this month, at Spring Lake, New to Boston to participate in a conference on : Jersey, bur governor is inviting the gov labor corhpacts, they return to Trenton to ernors of all the states of the union and a meeting of a commission of fifteen in- the individual members of the committees eluding the five-leaders of the senate; five or commissions on interstate cooperation of the principal house members, and five of. to consider the^ubjectojf interstate coop the major administrative officials of the ' eration .with respect to labor and industry. state ^.who are representing the governor.; ; The Spring Lake Conference is afco to The commissioners repbi;t to that group
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r456 THE BOOK OF THE STATES r— . and they have organized backing for what taxation. In New York today, they'have ever cooperative program New Jersey peo;,, a crty sal^s tax. A person from New Jersey pie consider legitimate and desirable. " can''^go there, biiy anything he fWants, and I am going to ask Mr. Paul, who is have it sent across the river tax free. In chairman of the House Committee oil " ijFa^t'^^the store keepers will encourage you Interstate Cooperation in New Jersey, if fif have it sentiq^order that you may,;evade he will now^say something giving us niore the tax. V The same situation exists, in the of. a general picture as to the operation of Kew Jersey-New York flow of goods. We ' the commission in other fields. ', hope . to ' get. some reciprocity- measure, . HON. JOSEPH C. PAUL (New Jersey).: enacted between N^w York and New Jer I am chairman-of the liquor control'com sey to avoid that diremma. mittee. We have had conferences with our ' I feel that we should have mdfre uniform coramissipner, Mr. Burnet,'"and we we^e motor vehicle control. Upon entering" surprised to learn, through him, of the'.^ another state the motorist is faced with a amount of bootlegged \\(\\iQX sold in the • /^w set of laws and a new set of rules and state. He wanted us particularly to help .rej^ulations. With the ease of, access which . him get some .cooperation in attempting to w;e have from one state to another today / meet that situation. the border lines are almost unknown. ,Q.ur We also found that there are three major- siib-'committee on motor vehicles is at things to work out. First, the question of tempting to devise a set of uniform laws licensing, for example, in connection with which vyiU permit easier access from one . trucks going from Florida, to Pennsylvania. state to. another in that respect. Some states charge a license fee.jiist for the CHAIRMAN TOLL: One other member of -:'- truck to pass through. It is thought that . the"New. Jersey commission is here iind I there should be a fee paid both at the be think it is appropriate at this time to call ginning of the journey and at the end. on him. Senator Leap! >• . The states should cooperate in that pro SEN.ATOR S. RUSLING LE.AP (New Jer gram. Another pp^int raised was jihe ques-" sey)-:. Food is a very necessary and in- • ' tion of labeling,—proper and uniform teresting item. I have the pleasure of labeling. Different states hayis different being the chairman of the sub-cummittee laws as to how the'label should be made,' on milk control in New Jersey. As we are the size...of--the bottle, and- how the bottle situated between New York and Penn should be blown. It causes, confusion. It sylvania, both of which states are large is the tommissioner's thought that we producers of milk, New Jersey . is con make more uniform the law of labeling. ' fronted with the situation that, we produce about forty.per cent of the milk consumed ' Bring Control Boards Together in the state. New York has a commission on liquor Three years ago we found the average control, as well as P6nnsylvania. It is our price the farmer was.receiving.for his rnilk hope to proceed on the theory of getting was, approximately, two cents a quart. the administration of the control boards We made a survey and learned it was cost to cooperate. We are arranging now for ing our .farmers approximately- two and. a conference with the New York Planning one-half to uvo and three-quarters cents Board so that they may relay, the sugges- • per quart to )roduce the ;milk. On account . tions to their liquor control board. Iri that of that fact we realized that necessary at way we hope to nieet the situation, not tention could not be given to the matter of directly, but through the medium of this production from the standpoint of health, commission. cleanliness and other things. We at- ,g The New 'Jersey Commission is also tempted to control the situation by pro- , interested in the question of taxation. We yiding that no milk could b^ sold and are how in the throes of a sales tax. It is retailed in New Jersey-when it was pur-. not very popular, rvlr. Martin, our tax chased from the producers at\a figure less, €^ commissioner, iS also a member of this . than the: amount which was set for the commission. He has suggested uniformity price to be paid to^he producer in New of rules or laws concernin'g the question of Jersey.':' . . \ ''; SATURDAY MORNING SESSION 457 Unfortunately our State Supreme Court progress? In the absence of such a com . could not see any logic in our viewpoint^ mission, somebody in New Jersey would • and told tis we would haye to stay within •be negotiating on the criminal situaition, -^•- our limits, ff milk was purchased in sotjlebody else in New Jersey, without any Pennsylvania or New York state we>had contact .with that group; would be ne nothing to say as to the price thatvyas to gotiating on the milk situation, somebody, (5a< be paid to those producers, and, naturally, else in New Jersey ^ould be negotiating, \ve could not restrict the sale in New Jer with New York and Pennsylvania on the sey, it is really quite a serious problem. handling of parole and probation, and.' We have had consultations with New York somebody else in New Jersey would be= . and with Pennsylvania. We were rather negotiating with Pennsylvania and New . hopeful that under the AAA set up some York on the question of migratory unem- solution might be offered but, in view of the ployey. Is it your opinion that there is an Schechter case, apparently'we are getting advantage.in having those different ne- pnowhere frorfi that angles so we are now gptiators all in tPouch with each others "considering the . matter df an interstate through'the commission?.^. corhpact between the producing states that ^ SENATOR LEAP : : Most assuredly. It ship into New Jersey. \ affords a clearing house and you get more You might be interested \in the- sug direct results. Unless there is some uni gested list of subjects dra\yn;Yup by thb form method of exchanging ideas, I don't siib-committee on taxation, of\w'hich our believe we would get anywhere.- . ;.• State Tax Commissioner is the^chairman, SENATOR WOLBER: The fact that there •• and of which I happen to be one of the is a commission in New Jersey today is membersr" One suggestion is the possibil- ' alr-eady driving, us into these various prob ity of an agreement to minimize interstate lems. For example, undei* mjilk control , competition for tax exempt salgs ih inter Senator Leap gets the cooperation of other state commerqe and to minimize avoidance state officials including the Secretar>' of the of sales, taxes^ either by permitting the , Board of Agriculture, Oh the labor ancl selling state to imppsje the sales tax, or by , industry problem, I am working through permitting the receiving state tp impose the Department of Labor, even though the, such a tax with Appropriate provision for Commissioner of Labor d'oes. notr happen . - enforcement. \ to be a member of the commi:^ion. :As Second,- compacts tending toward uni Assemblynian Paul said, in the liquor con formity in regard to competitive taxes. • itro l problem he is working" with the com- • One suggestion is a provision requiring missioner of that department. ' notice of a. fixed, peripd, perhaps one year, SENATOR LE.^P: I think it would be an ' „ before-any state may reduce the. tax rate excellent idea if.we would adopt a general, below some tax standard such as the rates ^ •set-up of committers so that the same com exis^/ng at.the time'of the compact, or rates mittees wouhi be in operation in each state, existing at the time of the change, or the and the chairmian of that particular com rate then existing in ^the adjoining state. mittee wpuld be made known to the chair -Another is a compact as.to reciprqcity and man in the pther states. So if there, is a exemption of non-residents in the payment^ question of milk and the matter is brought ' of income taxes. Other suggestions are up as between Wisconsin, Ohio, or Con-- ; •",> for agreements for exchange'of informa necticut" and New Jersey,, w'e would im tion,' for' promoting uniformity respecting mediately know the point of contact in taxes in general, for efforts to promote uni- . those particular states. • ' '. . formity in otax statutes to simplify the CHAIRMAN TOLL : That is a very in- • / problems of the tax-payers, and for ex teresting suggestion. This question occurs change of statistics to promote uniformity. • to me. You could not have entirely uni . CHAIRMAN TOLL: Senator Leap, as the form committees, of coursef, throughout the commission is functioning now, do you see country. But, for instance, if the bet't any- advantage in bringing together in a sugar states had a problem, each of the ,; single commission the. various interstate (Commissions ,in the beet sugar states negotiations that New 'Jersey has in might have a committee on that question. y
458 TEE BOOK OF THE ST A TES In the cotton states,, there might be a com effort to try to collect such hearings a^ you mittee, bn cotton,' and so forth. New jer speak of, records of reports of comriiittees, sey ivould probably not care to have eithlsr aijd.any records of hearings, and it is very a committee on cotton of beet sugar.' eager to bring..together all that sort of» If it meets with your, approval, my plan material in order thsft there may be a clear is to go around the. table and call on each ance between the legislatures of all the one of the conferees. I want to.begin by knowledge and counsel available. - That going across ^the..river from New Jersey has.been developed in the respective states, and call on Senatoir Berg of New York. but'as time .has gone on ^nd the American . SENATOR BERG (New York): Statg.^ Legislators' Association found itself rriore legislative committees can bring to the< ~and/mor e involved, in the question of ef legislature a personal toiich and the oral fective contact between the state govern arguments necessary to assist their col ments,, this, situation has come about: leagues in intelligent voting, so as to bring The Pv^nnsylvania Xegislature, for. in . about uniformity in the statutes. 1 be stance, entirely spontaneously and without lieve these state legislative committees, by any warning to the, secretarial of the holding public hearings on these various organization, passed a resolution, request subjects or problems, should in. every in-: " ing the Association to.call together a.con stance forward to, the American Legisia-' ference of the seventeen northeaster;i tors' Association a transcript of the pro states concerning motor vehicle legislation ceedings. That wealth of information and control. Then the question came up coming into this Association should then as to contact between.'the states in tax mat be forwarded to the.appropriate committees v ters and so forth. Assoon as you get into of the different states by the Association. the question of effective contact op rriotor . ,if we set up machinery^ere that will vehicle problems, and there is no use in tr.dcQvor to cope with loci^problems, we our worK if we are not going to rriake our will have machinery that \*ill b^ far re contacts, effective, you find the legislators' moved from the people and:will be uh- alonecahnot do the job. You have to have populair. the cooperation, the participation, and the I have enjoyed receiving the literature.: understanding of the administrative motor of.^this .AssgdaUon, I; am glad to know we vehicle officials and highway officials. . are trying to establish uniformity of action More than that, if you have the'T^gislators in the states. We ought to continue along and the administrative officials, fhey can that line. We ought to be able to write . not do a coniplete job unless the governors in to the ^central office for material. We areAvorking with theni. You have to have ought to consider this office as a clearing the parircipation of the legislative, execu house. Forexample, the book describing*, tive, . and administrative groups. When the stale legislative reference libraries is a you get .into the tax fiield, to attempt to . maintain efficient, cooperation between wonderful thing. states on taxation' simply through legis CHAIRMAN TOLL: Senator Berg, I am lators is hopeless. There must be the par glad that you have raised these various ticipation of the. administrative . agencies questions. There is one distinction which of the state in the tax field,'partly because I think should be pointed, out. . There are of their technical knowledge and partly be-, tvvc). organizations whiph, have a Joint sec- cause they are going to have to carry out relianat. For. ten years the Aroerican^ the legislative policies. Then there must Legislators' Association has been func be the sympathetic and active participa tioning, with increasing momentum. That tion of the governors. So the American is primarily, as I see it, the organization Legislators' Association felt there must be of which you speak, a professional associa an agency in which there would be partici tion of law rrfakers, primarily concerned pation by all those groups.. with such problems as the improvement of the organization, and procedure of- legis It was thought that there- should be a latures, and the maintenance of a clearing Council of State Governments in which house of information for the legislators. government administrative officials, execu The secretariat here has made a great tive officials, and legislators could all sit MSATURDAY MORNING SESSWN 459 f down together and-.work out these ;prob- There would be some one in the house ancj iems of cpntact between .the state govern- some one. in the senate studying these . ments. \° problems, not only with a view to the laws in their own states but to the effect of , MaintcJianceofCdntacts • cooperation with neighboring states. The question arose: how are-you going The suggestion was made that perhaps to maintain these contacts between the one state might be interested in beet sugar, governments? You cannot put- your finger another in wheat, and^ so forth. Our on the state government.. .What is it? state, of course,, would .be interested in Where is it? Who is it? Is it the whole wheat. We would be interested in milk organization? So if you want to have a control. : . continuing,, effective, systematic contact be We.have a: good many laws in the West tween the state governments yftii hav^to which you dojiot have in the East. I think have a contactual group in each state. It the development of a clearing house would was.with that thought in mind that the • be a very splendid wags' to get these things suggestion- was niade that there should be worked out. some sucfe.group set up in each state.' The question of labor and industry was , • This organization does not exercise any referred to a few moments'ago. I am. power. Power is exercised by..thie .officials working in the Department of Labor and of the state governments. These 'com- , Industry in .bur state. We have, maximum^ .niissnons are set up; by the respective hours and minimum wages for Women and states. Of course, such a Council does not children and apprenticeship laws,* but they have any, power. We are not trying to do not a.pply to men. Now that the NRA develop any agency that will dictate to the is ineffective a man can bp worked as many •to. state governments. Obviously, what we are hours as he is able to stand on his feet, at trying to do is to make possible coopera as low a wage as anybody can be hired to tion between tho.ie people who want to take the job. You can work women only cooperate. The organization is built on eight hours a day for six days a w^eek, and /he spirit >t)f facilitating the desire for the wage must be at least $13.20. You can cooperatiOin. The organization is not see what discrimination is made, between entitled to deniand cooperation, from any the rrien and women. U'ho wouldn't have body, either for-'the organization or for sixty or seventy hours of man labor as other states, but if there are officials who opposed fd fortj-eight hours of woman want to cooperate' wnth each other and labor? In these days you can employ men governments which want to ; cooperate pretty cheaply. - with each other, then there ought to be I believe these questions open up many machinery so that they can be in touch things that would be of great value, at ; with each other. least,to us in Washington. I.shall be glad ./ I would like now to go to the extreme to hear from some of the other states. northwest and call on Mrs. Florence The chairman made general annoiince- W. Myers, Chairman -of the Washington ments. The meeting recessed at tw.elvc- House'Committee on Interstate Coopera- ' forty P.M. -• . •„ ' tion. MRS. MYERS (W^ashington): ' The. thoughts which have been presented to us Saturday noon the conference met for' th^s morning promise to lead to something luncheon at International House on the really constructive^ I feel that reports of 'UnivcrsitSf. of Chicago campus, and Satur commissions.are entirely too long for legis day afternoon the conferees' visited the lators to consider thoughtfylly.' That is offices of the secretariats of the various where I think an organization of/his'kind governmental organizations at 850 East would have a very distinct/advantage. 58th Street. conferees, Staff Members, and Guests at the Saturday Evening Dinner of the Council oj State Governments /
^ ALvmmg ' - r- ' - Ju?ie 15y 1935., ica ^HE meeting was calleH to arjder. at,m y story ought to stop there, but for, the eight P.M. bv the Chairman, Hcnrv sake of the moral to be drawn later I shall W-.^Tolt.. : '. .. finish the Hindu story. CHAIRMAN TOLLr. I, have, asked Pro Man went his way for five days and then fessor T. v.. Smith to preside at these de came back to the god, as the scripture goes. liberations, oh one condition, that hewill He said, "My lord, this creature causes me not feel he is subjisct to'the limitations that rnore annoyance than pleasure. She la- some toastmasters feel they are under; merits for nothing at all, she is always sick. namely, to say nothing except to introduce I beg of you to relieve me of her." .\nd the other speakers. T have insisted, in, tbere was granted the first human divorce. getting Senator Smith- to serve as toast- The man went his solitary way for five master, that he firs| give us an inkling of days more and came back saying, "My lord, his philosophy of government. . ."; my life is very solitary since I returned this ToASTMASTER SMITH: Mr. Chairmanj creature. I remernber she glanced at me Ladies, Gentlemen, Politicians, Professors, • from the corner of her eye; she played with and Statesmen: I had meant to confine my me; she clung to me. Won't you.give her remarks this evening to the professors and back?" And the god graciously restored politicians. But sitting beside my colleague her., • • . , '- from south of the Smith-and Wesson line, This time only three days passed when Seriator Orieal, and hearing his soft, south 'the man was espied coming back once more. ern voice, has stirred all of my ancestral but He said, "My lord, I am sure I don't urrdei^- slumheririg chivalry. I must begin, I think, stand exactly how, but I repeat,, this crea with a word to the ladies, who will be hence ture causes more annoyance than pleasure. forth ignored e.xcept those who classify as J beg of you to relieve rjie of her." professors, or politicians, or both, The god answered, "Go your way and dp your best. You cannot live without her I read some time ago the story of the either." ^Jhe man went his way saying; creation.of woman, the Hindu story. "It "Woe,,woe is mine, neither can* I live with says that when the'god of Hindu mythol her, nor without her." ; ' ogy came to make woman he found he had Gentlemen and Lady Legislators: The used all of the solid material he had in world of important personalities in our day making man and the other critters, so he falls into two classes, politicians and pro had nothing. out. of which to make her. fessors: If there are: any professors here After profound and divine meditation he tonight .who do not acknowledge that, at tookthe roundness of the moon, the un the same tirne also, they are politicians, I dulation of the serpent, the untwining of only remind them of their being here. It the climbing plant, the slenderness of the is a fact that they are the scavengers after "rose stem', the "glance of the mist, the in the p>oliticians. Presuming they will not' consistency of the wind, tfie timidity of the accept this-honor, I think I may address; hare, the vanity of the peacock, the soft you now as, Politicians xAll. _ ^ ness of the down oh the throat of the swal low, the warmth of the fire, the chill of the north, the chatter of the jay, and the coo ^ What Is a Politician? ing of the turtle dove.. I always secretly rebelled, when I was After putting all those together for the a mere professor, atithe reputation which formation of this divine, devilish creature, politicians have achieved among men of he made a present of her to man. Perhaps presumption. Long ago, the great specula-
! • 462 THE BOOK OF THE ST A TES 'tive thinker of our western world, Plato, to the conclusion, by watching.this animal wrote this as a definition of a politician. "A in aftioii, that he is characterized by two politician is one\vho traces the degree of virtues which, to my way of thinking, are his art asfollowa: a man who belongs to outstanding virtues from any serious, the conscioiis or dissembling action of his moralist point of view of the race of man art of causing self. contradiction, is an imi kind. tator of the purist, and is separated from 'If^we think of men as being engaged in the class of-the fantastic, which is a branch the triple quest for safety and income and . of image, into that further division of crea defertoce, and ^then we think of all pro- tion, the juggling, of-words, a creation hu fessionargroups as' being the servants of man and not divine. Any one who affirms this universal triple quest of mankind, we the real politician to be of this blood and may say of the business rnan, in general, • lineage will be sayi|}g the exact and veri that, himself centered upon, income, he table truth."' evaluates; and promotes to a level of -When I was a professor, I resented that principle, the notion of income among other characterization of this ubiquitous and ever men. - lasting symbol of human energy among us. If we may say of the doctors and the After I aspired to become a regular hard-- ' lawyers and the ministers that,, themselves boiled "he-politician," I resented the re in quest for "security or- safety, they have membrance of that characterizatidn, and evaluated this into a principle of human my blood boiled even more when I read the conduct which they Will serve. • modern effort to paraphrase Plato in this definition of a politician. "A p>olitician is Virtue of'Deference a gentleman who can tell a lie in such a Then I think we may say of the pbliticia.n, manner to another gentleman, who is also as such, that he is out to do (lejcreucc to ' a politician, that the second gentleman is men. It happenSj I think, as human beings, compelled to let on he really believes the that we are.all deference hungry. We want first gentleman? although he .knows the, . income-and We want safety, but give us first gentleman is a liar, who knows that the right amount of deference and we \yill the second gentleman does not believe him. give up our income and ask no more safety Both let on that e.ach believes the other than the continuation of the praise. while both know that both are liars." If one thinks of theology, as the dean of This ancient and modern travesty of.our one of our divinity schools, recently retired, noble art, of which now we are all prac once characterized the theologist, as being titioners, has set me, as a professional the transcendentalized politician, then you- moralist, to reflect upon the virtues of sit high in the heavens as well as spread X politicians, to offset these ancient and dis- - over the .earth in the notion that since the •honorable attributions of vices. divine being himself is hungry only for I have asked myself oftentimes in the.. glory, praise, and honor, that this becomes Senate" of Illinois: What are the peculiar, the basic guiding hunger j)f all animate life. the unique, the differential virtues of the The politician, above all men of our time, politician par excellence? I have said, too, or of any time, I suspect, is the man who that in other professions there seemed to sets out, professionally, to feed the hunger be an outstanding crystallization that came for deference. He is himself a deference as a result of the professional function'. I' hungry man, otherwise he would not be in have said to myself that if we called the the game. He understands what rnen rate lawyers keen and at the same time cussed, first everywhere. and if we called the engineers dull but ac Under the guise _of answ^ering my ov\'n curate, and if we called the doctors taciturn correspondence, - which is small—never : and serious, whether they be osteopaths, reaching more than one thousand telegrams homeopaths, or allopaths (all these paths a day, .which is the maximum,. and-Jiy^- of glory lead but to the grave), what could hundred letters—when I go into our "Wesay, in similar vein, and in determined stenographic pool to watch the mermaids effort, accurately and justly to characterize playing at the typewriter, I proceed to dic the politician or his professional virtues? tate.; But as I sit around and listen to the •In answer to that question, I have come other senators answering letters that come
*^* SATURDAY EVENING SESSION 463- to them, I corhe to the conclusion that not where the fence belongs—and three inches even the psychiatrist, performing service is as good, or as bad, as'a rnile. for mankind, performs the service of the 'He said, "My wife caught me before I politician. For if the letters themselves got out.of the'house and made me put up ^approve the politician's stand, the politician the gun, and rather than ha.ve trouble with makes it appear that the correspondent has her I finally decided not to have the trouble discovered new and weightier reasons for with my neighbor. But I vowed then and this course of action than he himself had there I would get "even with him, .if it took discovered. If the letters are against his me all my life. That was fifteen years ago, ' stand, he makes it appeai; thtit the, question professor, and last month he got what was is evenly, divided, and that a reasonable coming to him. man might even be 'more reasonable if he "He was something of a horse .fancier. took the opposite position. He.couldnit afford .to own anything except.' This seems to me, Fellow Politicians, not just work horses, but he was crazy about a reason for merriment, but a matter for-, race horses. I came into possession of a . profound and everlasting "gratitude. If the young horse that could do four ga.its almost politician's trade became, overnight, bank perfectly,.when he was irj, the mood, which ' rupt, half of the respected and well balanced , was not often; . Every time I caught; him citizens would be caises for the psychia in the mood I rode him by my neighbor's trist, and he would never be able to handle house, up and.down the road, as many times thfem. v^ ... a day as I could find an excuse for doing so. So we may say, I think, that the politi Finally, I found the poison Was working. I cian in his discovery of the basic motivation caught my neighbor looking at this horse of .human nature, and in his well sustained from";under the corner of the barn one and artistic efforts.to satisfy the deepest day, and I knew the arrow had struck home. hungers of human nature, is the secular "Two "Weeks later he came over to me,, priest of humanity, sacrificed all too often for "we were still .on distant speaking terms, to satisfy the hungers of th6 people: •and talked about horses. Finally he.came to the question,-and wanted to know if I Magnanimity would trade4he-horse; I said I. wo-uld not. The second virtue that seems' to me to . ]My neighbor, had one of the best work . belong, in extraordinary degree, to the poli-" horses in the Ozarks, without a doubt,-and tician, as siich, is thevirtue of wflgHG»/m/^v. I needed a good work horse. My horse was Vacationing some months ago in the good for nothing but going through the Gzarks, I camped for two days with an old saddle paces on 'fair' days. I nursed him Arkansas farmer, who had tobacco juice •along for several days and then he offered running down both corners of his mouth, to trade even. That was a^ gorgeous trade and who, in the course of forty-eight hours, but I would.hear nothing of it "whatsoever. . got pretty friendly and told me the story Finally, he, was willing to give me a sub- of his life. The last hour we spent to .stantial 'boot,''but I wouldn't listen to his gether was a revelation to me of what hu talk.. Iwaited'until horse trading on •Mon man life lacks and, therefore, what this day, in town, when all. nur neighbors and- ; virtue of the.politician serves. To make friends were there, then I let this fellow a long story short—it was an extremely drive a bargaui with me to give me twenty- ; interesting story to me—he told me-of a five dollars to boot-and trade these horses." nieighbor who, fifteen years befor;e, had • Again, I'm not sure you city slickers . moved his fence over on my friend's land know.that.twenty-five dollars, in the Ozarks,' ., three inches, from, one end to the otherr 7is\vQ'ftil'-^almo&t a holding company-job in • He said, "I got out my shotgun, as any self- the utilities. It is money, .big money. - respecting man would, and started out to My Mend said, "I took it, but that is make him put the fence bcick over where it not ih'e'point. This Was'off day' for the; " belonged," horse. I had seen..to that. My neighbor That was an old story to me, born on a got on the horse to ride him away. The •. Texas farm and reared on a Te.xas farm. horse balked. He spurred him a little and • This is, as, perhaps not all. city slickers! he kicked him oft'. He had to go through know, the perennial problem of the farm-^ the humiliation of paying a man a^dollar
•f: 464 THE BOOK OF THE STATES to lead this fine riding horse honie. I tell one looked upon as a phenomenon in its. you, professor^ it was the finest day's work own right. of my4ife." . ' ., . The politician lias achieved the supreme The poHtician learps very quickly not to virtue of taking' all interests as legitimate, harbour grudges. Even Carter Gla;ss and of setting himself to the task, in the light Huey Long, so the press reports say, had of discredit, by that tolerant recognition of their arms around each other the day before bringing to pass a comp^romise between con yesterday. The politician learns, first, by flicting interests, all of which are equally behaving as-though he liked the guy, and, legitimate, at least at the start. He is, finally, he does learn to' like him. As in fact, in my opinion, a man who learns to Carlyle. long ago pointed out, ''I have had compromise an issue without compromising dinner with him, a man whom T despised, himself. He is a man who learns to give but never had breakfast with one whom I away an issue in a pinch, without giving disliked." ' •; himself away, and in a civilization, even The great fatality of this'human exist in the-western world, in which very ra.pidly ence ordinarily is that if you subject your we come to the impasse.described by one self to one another for a little while yoii get of our New England_poets, Robert Frost, even.to where.you understand the other fel who said:' ' ;<- low's vices-so well, they lose their stain, Some say the world will end in fire, " and you rather sympathize with him. As : Some say in ice Clarence Darrow once remarked, "I drag ' From what I have tasted of desire, - out my murder trials as long as possible I think I would hold because hiany a man Will hang, a stranger With those who favor fire. . but not one man in a thousand will hang a But if I had' to perish twice, • friend."' The politician learns, if not inr I think I know enough of hate stinctively, very early—by hard knocks— To say that for destruction not to harbour grudges-. He-acts as though Ice is also great he likes his fellow politicians, and pretty And would suffice. • soon he finds' he does like them and it is impossible not to like them; In a very Between the. developing lines of the small Way, perhaps too humble for your revolutionary spirit, the incarnation, politi *-sophistication, but in a sense that is very cally, of fire, a:nd the lion's holding of real to me, he possesses the greatest human wealth, and distinction, reserved as ice, un virtue, the virtue of magnanimity. - less we can grow more of this breed of politicians who can compromise an issue A Cotner on Virtue. ' without compromising themselves, we shall I submit td*"you that a man whose pro find ourselves in \vorse plight than I ex fessional business is to feed, everybody else pect ourselves to be found in; ; For the with the deference for. which they are politician, with his determination to feed hungry, and to act toward' his colleagues the deferent hungry,, knows how to call with whom he is associated in terms of upon other men so as to find them there the highest human, virtue,, that of magna and knows himself well enough so that nimity—such a man hiis the corner on the when he calls upon himself, he finds himself morc[lVirtues of modern men. at home. After all; I imagine your e.xperience fol I will say then, if I niay, that inmy esti lows mine, fairly closely. In my' brief ex mation the politician, whose virtues in one perience the problem is not ITGW to gejt along way or another we shall all celebrate, to with bad men. It has been the pToblem of night, is the man who. pours "oil, crude or how-to get along with good men, men who -refined, upon tKe troubled waters of this insisted oh being good—in such eussedly human life. queer ways, rather than in my \yay—that it I-am going to turn-now to a man who can jicems impossible to get along with them speak for all classes alike, a man who needs until youcbme to recognize there are almost no introduction to this group, the Executive infinite orders of goodness, as there are Director of the Public Administration Clear orders of ability, that each one has to be ing House, Louis Brownlow, the intangible regarded as sui generis, as it were, and each Browrilow, academic amateur, intellectual SATURDAY EVENING SESSION 465 gallant, administrative practitioner of the chinery is that all.machinery is a conflict, 'highest strategy, true cosmopolite! that its very operation is built upon a con -MR: LOUIS BROWNLOW; It is difficult to flict 6f interests, that there are, as Senator attempt to say anything after such a dev Smith said, a great variety of" conflicting astating introduction as that. I avoid, of interests that are, at least in the beginning, course, admitting that I am a politician. I • legitimate;' It is perfectly legitimate for 'have avoided with equal skill any charge, one piece, of metal to resist being "abraded "vvhich nevet" yet has been made, that I am against another piece of liietal. And the a professor, by pretending to be, at any machine age, after all, witliout taking away fate, an adi^iijnistrator.'^ Administrators, of any of the deference that has been due to course, are sometimes known as those per the great contrivers.and inventors, never sons who attempt to protect the processes ' achieved its important place in the social , of.'government from the evil machinations life of the world until we discovered great .of the politicians and also they are those reservoirs of lubricants. • who, because of their ineptitude, have pre- Senator Smith has told us that the. poli . \-ented government from enjoying to the tician is the one who. pours oil on the, full the curative and remedial properties of troubled waters. IMay I take a figure of prescriptions, that have been written by the speech from the pre-machine age. when professors, especially those of political there- were rude topis with which men science, because very few of us heretofore fashioned ships, rude looms upon which have had theopportunity to hear a professor men wove sails? Men trusted that vessel of philosophy in full flight. in fhose days with naive ingenuity, depend ent as it was upon the use to which he puf Novel Problems the winds of heayen. ' Now he (irive.s his As I, sat this morning at the meeting of vessel through the waters, or over the the Council of State Governments, seeing earth, or through the air by machinery. and hearing men and women syho are mem That niTachinery depends always upon the bers of commissions or committees on inter- .reduction in friction which is accomplished -- state cooperation, hearing only too briefly by lubrication. - because they mentioned by title some of the In the political world. I think the word problems that are coming before these we have used; for lack of a better word to commissions and committees; as I heard represent this function, of lubrication, is- them one after another, it occurred to me cooperation. Cooperation is not a .very that practically all of these were problems good word. Some one said to me a long that no one knew anything about when the''- c while ago, and T have repeated if very often, Constitution of, the. U'.nited States was that cooperation is that sort of .operation \yritten. . • ,' in which the other fellow operates while We are how faced with problems that you are expected to coo. And too often it have come about because of the advance certainly is an approach, from one side or. in the use of machinery, the extension of the other, in that spirit. , power of mankind, and of animal kind, by the use of the machine in a period which •, . Grease on the Axle '/':%• -•'• . .. we call the machine age. As we went After all, we cannot compose'our dif around the table in that conference, which ferences. We cannot compromise our coh- is to be resumed tomorrow, we; heard much flicting interests. We cannot make the about machinery.. AVeTieard from one man thing go at ..all unless it is well bridged,; that this- Council of State Governments and that is the fob we have befor6,iis,-.;when ought to confine itself.-pethaps, to the we attempt to set up-machinery for better problem of machinery. We heard through cooperation. We have to remember that out all of the discussion the need for de whatWe are trying to do is to reduce fric veloping new machinery by which the forty- tion. We are not trying to destroy any eight states could arrange more effective of the cornponeht parts of the. ma.chine. cooperatiori than they have yet had. There are a few of you who are-old "enough As I listened, it seemed to me that per and rural enough to know what I mean haps one of the things we have talked too when I say what is needed is grease on the, little about when we are considering ma-. axle. If you destroy either the wheel or H w-
466 THE BOOK OF THE STATES t the axle,' each of which is screaming at the it is a job in which a great deal of good . other in pain and conflict, the wagon is de can be done. \I believe yoli are attacking -* stroyed. ; it in. the right way. I have been trg- . • JlAlien we talk today about state govern mendously impressed by what I have at- " ment, we hear much about the destruction ready heard at this, meeting, .j^reatly inl^ • of states by the encroachment of the power pressed by some of the other things, such V of the federal government. If any of you as the Tax .Revision Council, in-which fof ever were, as sometimes I suspect in meet- the first • tifne, federal, state, and . local , >• ings of Senator ToU's,organization none of •governmental representatives are assembled you has ever been, a citizen of a county or: in one body to study the problem not only , '^ a municipality, you perhaps would hear of taxation, but of the proper allocation of also how tiie encroaching power of the state the' furictions and services of goye'rniiient capital is destroying local self government. amongthese three levels. ,**"" It is very odd, of course, to see the atti tudes we take at different times of the day Vertical Cooperation \ • with respect to these problems. ' Partly because I have had. some little • You are a citizen of .a local government, experience as an administrator in the federal • of a state government, and of the-federal government and partly because I have never, .- government. While you may escape it, yet been associated with state government, J fe\v of us haveendeavored, to escape^ur believe I shall, nevertheless, hazard, this, rights and privileges and to,demand services warning, that in your work of facilitating from all three of these levels of government. the cooperation among state goyernments What I think we have failed to do so you will do well to remember one thing. . absurdly .in this country is, in the first In our complex.social, economic, and polit-, : place', on what T call the horizontal, level, ical situation, whatever good you rhay do"' to have no machinery whatsoever for co ^will not be the full good of which you are operation among these_ forty-eight states. capable unless you realize that there is.^a As Senator Toll and others of this organiza possibility, of cooperation in the vertical tion have-pointed out, there is more and plane as well as the horizontal. better machinery for. coopejiation between I believe we are going to get-further if the government of the state of Texas and we do not consider that everything "^a state that of the kingdom of Sweden than there is government is doing is necessarily inimical between the state of Texas and its ndghbor-, to the interests of. the federal .government, ing state of Louisiana or Oklahoma. We. or of'.the local government, and the same have sent senators and representatives, to thing is true, viewed from the point of • Washington but we have not a diplomatic view of either the upper or lower of these corps in the states. •• three levels. Each of-us is a citizen of all In every community there is a total sum three. Each, is going to live under aill three, . of. government. One part of that, whether Each of us is going to demand the services .. it be.a great part or smallpart, yoii may of all three, and each of the three.levels puf'as^a column down on the left hand side of government is entitled to call upon us to . labeled, "functions performed by the federal- perform and discharge our duties as citi ^: government," and the rest is performed by zens. Let us then think rather in terms of * the forty-eight state governments and their federal, state, and local government. Per : political subdivisions. With respect to that haps some services would, be better' per- , , area outside the sphere of the federal formed if the responsibility were divided government, those forty-eight states are among all three. sovereign, .independent nations. Yet they • Thejodd thing about all this is that we are the only forty-eight sovereign, inde have gone on from 1789 until 1935'and pendent nations iit>*>the world no One of this is the first tirne an attempt has been which, had a department of foreign affairs maide to.set up machinery to fexplore the until these commissions and committees on possibilities of cooperation among the interstate cooperation were.appointed, most forty-eight states of this union. It is not •of them in the year 1935. oil—;crude or'refined—upon the troubled That is i'our job. That is the job of the waters that you are required now to deliver, Council-of State Governments. I believe but" it is a full quantity of the highest quality
'-^-: n-y SATURDAY EVENING SESSION ^467 of lubricant in the. forty-eight cylinders. stitution. New 'Jersey, notwithstanding ToASTMASTER SMITH: I am. glad, ladies the boundary line extended to the center and gentlemen, that this is rather a high of'the Hudson River, let New York assyme brow assembly, because I am afraid at t|)e jtfrisdiction over crinlinar Jaw viola least one metaphor of our distinguished tions in that waterway, and it is not alto- speaker .might be misunderstood as some of , gether a long cry from 1833 to 1935, when my early letters to my constituents wer^e. right in our.own legislature in New Jersey,, He spoke of grease on the axle. That would my colleague. Senator Leap, is trying to be understood, in some legislative circles, settle the same question of jurisdiction with as grease in the palm, but he does not the neighboring state of; Delaware. mean that any more than when I replied About twenty-five years ago we had a to certain letters relative to. a certain issue, sewage .disposal problem in the-state of that my mind was not yet inadeup in re New Jersey:. Our neighboring state of New gard to the issue, that I required further York called us into the United States Su ' • /'', persuasion. I began to get, indirectly, preme Court. While we were permitted intimations of types of persuasion that I to continue a specified amount of treated had not intended at all. We havelo temper sewage disMsal into New York Harbor, the our language alccording to the levels of life. opinion of trie United States Supreme Court I now desire to present Senator Joseph in that" case adrnonished us that if the Wolber, of New Jersey,; who I am in time ever arose when the discharge of that formed, if the legislature of New Jersey system ifitb waters of New York Bay be ever adjourns, is to become judge of the came inimicar or injurious ito the interests circuit court in his state. of the people of the state of New York they SENATOR WOLBER: I was very rriuch .. would have a right tp come back into the interested in what the toastma^ter had to Supreme Court to secure relief. say about the politician. I find thait at the close of a political career, the professor of Litigation Not the Best Way philosophy has given me the answer I have Today, with all the litigation, after try- had so much difficulty in propounding to V ing to use the technical fneans of protecting my political audiences during niy cam what seemed to be our legal rights, we find- paigns, relative • to the politician. I re ourselves in the position of recognizing that member very well when you would address" the only fair, practical.way in which these a so-called highbrow audience you would rights can be handled must, be on the basis like to avoid reference to the politician, be of neighborliness and cooperation 'among cause that usually carried with it a shrug the states involved. D-f the shoulder or a raising of the eyebrows. So I say today that \nth the Council of In order to withstand the effect of that re State Governmehts in existence we have a action of your audience, you would say, realization greater than ever, before, \yith all .-"Well, I mean the politician, in a broader the new developments, with the clear sense, not in a harrow sense." enunciation: of the distinction between' the I am not one'-tf those who think that by powers of the federal government and the the splendid interest in state cooperation, or state governments, a realization that-pu<[s shall we better call it friendliness between us all in a friendly and cooperative spirit. • forty-eight states of the union, we have If it were not for that instrumentality how all to go back to the horse and buggy stage. could we, representing |:he. states of the I cOme from a state which has participated union, understand-the viewpoint, the atti for many years in the use of tjie compact tude of mind toward those problems which /«. clause of the federal constitution in trying are common to some of us regionally, to, all to promote friendliness among our neigh of us as members of onfe great nation. boring states. It was the stlte of New Under the Supreme Court decision we York and the state of New Jersey, back in must be filled with a wider recogmtion of 1833, who determined by compact the ques the. usefulness of the instrument that our tion of jurisdiction over crimes committed forefathers, in their far-seeing wisdom on the Hudson River, adopted, as it rr.ust be applied to our It goes to show how wise.the forefathers modern conditions, complex and compli were when they adopted the federal con cated as they may, be. I say to you, my t^
#• r -<•. • t- 468 THE BOOK OF THE STATES 'colleagues of the Council of State Govern acceptance in the modern world, have been ments, here is our opportunity!. Let us take our mythologies^ with which your mythology advantage of it! • . must compete. T would surmise that this ToASTMASTER SMITH; In a moment I am mythology must undergo some reconstruc going to call on representatives'of three tion, technically. You will notice that .point departments of a university that I shall one was: we are the individuals who will not name, because it is a great hotbed of defer to you. We are the. people who know radicalism; even of./?e(//j?« in America, and that ^u are hungry for deference. ; We are I do not Want to break into, the press at thirsty.'for it, and we will undertake to do this inopportune moment... •our best for you, May I bring back to you those incisive ;•. As mythology, I fear that is rather a poor Words of Emily Dickinson long ago: verbal formula; First of all there is a certain kind of candor about it. There is "^w dreary to be .somebody, a. certain suggestion that peoples' motives ; How public like a frog are what they are'. There is something that » To tell your name the livelong day • is too simple and human, earthy, obvious, \ ; . . To an admiring bog.'-' . and direct about that sort of thing; Many people,^ iear, will be jbrodded into new That is the cry, frequently,- of the poli-. forms of self realization under these condi ticiah, but the preceding speech from a polir tions. I strongly suggest that no mythology ticiah who is so soon to be relegated to a that forces people to candid self-understand judgeship fits in beautifiilly with the verbal ing is'one which offers much for the future • reluctance—on top of the drive for action-— of those specialists who hope thereby to that all politicians have. profit. I have quite enough on the next speaker, The second point>^seeiTis to me to be but since I cannot command the right set equally vulnerable. This group" arises and of polysyllables in nliich to tell it I am says, "We have a moral ascendancy. We going to let him tell it in his nw'n inimitable -. are magnanimous; we stand for the virtues; verbiage. Professor Lasswell, from a cer of "generosity and kindliness. Please put tain political science department! your head in our mouths/'' It seems to hie PROFESSOR LASSWE.LL: Mi*. Toastmaster, that a profession of moral virtue, as a assembled priests, physicians, psychiatrists, monopoly of any skilled group, is outof moribund politicians; judges: It giVl^s me fashion, in the modernworld, that con- pleasure to be here.this everting.and to hear sciously,,the future of this mythology would of this achievement of the new mythology, . app'eati^^^to require some supplementation, the mythology which enables this holy and some achievement of impersonal verbiation long misunderstood profession to rise at which will not provoke people to those heart last; to the yerbal grandeur wnth-which it searchings which are implied in the brutal lijiassb^en, e.nrofeM. t^ Senator and vicious self disclosure of this remark Smith. • able phraseology. It seems to me that at last we are deal . I ^therefore suggest, and it is with 'real, ing with a group of individuals who are genuine pain that I suggest it, that as I coming before lis with that proud sense of look upon this infant'in this new myth, avowed virtue which they have hitherto left which is lying out before us unwrapped, we to the professional philosopher, moralist, 'should undertake to investigate the possi- priest. . bilities for its survival. There are certain ' Hitherto, politicians, as 'I understand, . auguries which, as a candid observer: of the have deferred to the.sentimenjts of people future of infantile creations of various whose color is black,.yellow, or white; to kinds, I regard with some alarm. I, there people whose creeds are eccentric, opulent, fore, suggest that if this infant which has profound; to individuals who feel that their been produced before us is to survive, it local and regional interests must be ade will require some form' of redisguise, some quately presented in the high and mighty attainment of paternity, by the investing,' places. . ; if necessary, of affiliation with some im The forms of collective self appreciation mutable and impersonal law or principle in which are competing v/ith one another fpr,: the narne of which it can exert suzerainty
'j(M^ A SATURDAY EVENING:SESSION 469 over the- taxes, and the, blood, and the generated.^nthi^ middle ages and of which deference qf our fellow citizens. - we are, Ithtnk, very definitely, still a part— • ToASTMASTER SMITH': I think .you will the sense in which" this western society of now understand the penitence I feel at. not which we are a part has also reached a having: shot my bolt: I had counted lipon parting of the ways. W'e have all had it. a tactic which I .did not disclose, that if I bred into us,, as .Americans, I think, more did not quote the, formula of Professor than Europeans, that economically, espe Lasswell's recent book, "Politics—The Citi cially, we are progressing, that we are going zens. Who Gets \yhat, When, and How," on, and over a long period of time, which he wouldn't recognize the rest of what I probably reached much further Back than* was saying as also coming: from his recent the. so-called period of industrial revolu book. But having been caught up ,in my tion, which probably goes back to the own guileless style, I only repeat, in answer, reformation, we were progressing in' an • to all this polysyllabic diatribe that what economic sense. I.have said is as plain as the nose oh your This process reached its culmination in face, and of that nose one of my students the late nineteenth and early twentieth recently wrote: ^ . centuries. There were various factors ,' •'. ••',-. • • • 1, . • "Thou brave comrade, frontier of the face which explained.thie reaching of its culmina Pioneer in darkness and leader of our race tion. One of them was a movement in the Forerunner of fortune and espion of woe growth of population which began, pre Lead on, my nose, I'll follow sumably, all over the western world about Where'er thou bidst me go." ' the middle of the eighteenth century and ••J. ••*-'. took in one country after another. It I-take grea|; pleasure in calling upon culminated toward the end of the nineteenth another professor from a certain university; century so we can no longer look forward, Professor Nef of the Department of-Eco as we could in that qentury, to a doubling nomics; or tripling af population over a period of a PROFESSOR NEF: Just two things occur century. to me on the spur of the mom.ent that I Again a very happy or unhappy (which might say to you. ' The gentleman from ever way you happen to look^^t it. I by no New Jersey spoke of these troublesome means wish to use the term happy in a giddy times, this crisis, and that is, I think, quite sense) set of circumstances which existed the fashion now. It is the fashion, t might in the nineteenth century no longer exists. say,' to think of ourselves as being in the We have experienced a very rapid change in midst of a very special and serious crisis. the basic construction of goods, first of all But I wonder whether it has occurred to from wood to iron and then'from iron to you, in another way, that this crisis is some steel, which meant that Ave had to build thing which we are not going to escape, everything over again. We cannot, in any in the ordina;ry sense in which we escaped measurable time, I think, look forward to old crises, at least so it looks. Here I speak any process, of that sort. with a good deal of deference. I don't feel I haye made any special study of the Less Rapid Change nineteenth century, but at least it looks I could go on and cite other examples, that way to a mere economic historian who but the conclusion I wish to-draw is that specializes in the sixteenth and seventeenth • we cannot look forward any longer ,to centuries. progress in the sense in which we have It is common to say that America entered looked forward to it in the past. We are a new epoch when the frontier came to an all, adjusted to an extraordinarily rapid end. My old and revered teacher, Pro change. It is almost inbor% We must now fessor Turner, was, of course, more re- change Our thinking along these lines. . sponsfble for that idea than any one else. •The second idea Which occurs to me in . There is another sense, I think, in which regard to the very profound, change that hot only- America, but western society as a must come about in our way of thinking whole, and here I am speaking of western is that we are going to produce more goo^ds, society not in quite the sense of'^enator perhaps, than we produced back in the Srhith, but in the. sense of that society which nineteenth century, but no longer is the rate 470 THE BOOK QF THE STATES of growth going to be ,rnore rapid, conse were active in politics. One of; my fellow quently our whole make-up has to change. citizens of Illinois, whom I believe he does One way in which we have to change, not know personally, has oftentimes.spoken ' obviously, is a way which I think is in op to me in the highest terms of the help he position to what was expressed by my has had from this gehtiMnan in working out , predecessors who have spoken tonight. Al a scheme that would, make it possible for though I did not hear the address, I believe Illinois, to get a constitutional amendment •I could subscribe to every word.spoken by and a constitutional convention, if any ap .the president of the university to which I "^ preciable number: of the people wanted to .belong, in delivering the convocation ad propose it, undef a system of counting dress a few days ago. From what I have straight'party votes as votes for an amend- heard, he said that corruption is the prin ;, merit or for a constiiutional convention, if • cipal vice which besets us today, and that the party for whom the vote is cast has en •if we are going to.meet this vice we must dorsed the measure. • ' .; change our whole way of thinking. We The measure which he proposed went must try to remain ^yhat we were like when through the senate with flying colors and ' I we were twenty. He was talking largely to .\vould have gone through the;house had not men around that age'. Wemust not lose the metropolitan press come idowri like a ton the fresh ideas which we have at that time. of bri'ck, out of fear of getting an income tax IMore particularly, it is the duty, it seems instead of the miserable sales tax on which to me, of men in public office—-of which we spend our time quarrelling. I am happy this body is largely made; up—not tq, fol to introduce, as a politician under the skin. low, but to lead. 'By that I mean we can if not on the. surface. Professor Sears, of set a ve/y great example, it seems to me, for the Law School of a certain university. the margin with which we have to play. PKOFESSOR SEARS: It'seems to me the The hiargin of corruption is no longer what average American really does not care a it was. We ho longer have the samd" margin whit whether he gets "what; he wants from to play with; therefore we can no longer the local, state, or federal government. He afford not to pay heed to some of these Avants what he wants and the government- things. I think one of the most abused that gives rtr4o him most quickly and to his : statements I have heard is that honesty is best satisfaction will be the one,.on.that, the best policy. If honesty is nothing but particular proposition, that he will favor. policy, if honest is not a good thing4h itself, He is not much concerned with logical di there is no point in honesty. vision of functions. .~ ToASTMASTER SMITH: .Jn intrbducing the. If the states would be more efficient in next speaker, I must say this one word, by their government there would not be so calling attention to professors who are not much cry about the federal government yet politicians as to what they may do in usurping power. The federal government", their period of political'inactivity toward as far as I can see, does not usurp things the furthering tif the standards bf human merely because those back in Washington life and the improvement of the machinery are so eternally anxious to do it. Thiey do of pohtical life. it because of the pressure put upon them'to The gentleman who will next speak to take: charge of matters where the feeling is you was called upon some time ago. to help that it is necessary to dp it "that way," if Illinois out of a' predicament that is almost we are to have satisfaction. •'•••. a halter around its neck.' We foundit so The last constitution in Illinois 'was nearly next to impossible that we dismissed adopted in 1870. In forty-four years we in a short time the possibility of changing have adopted only one important constitu our constitution. We were in such a posi- tional amendment. Time after time '. tion that in the last election, when we voted amendments have been submitted. But OB a constitutional amendment, if the total Illinois, thanks to the research'work pub number of votes that had been cast upon lished in the magazine STATE GOVERNMENT, the issue hdd been cast for it we still would W'e find is one of eight states where it is have been-far from adopting this possibility necessary, in order to carry that amendrhent of change.- Seeing this situation, this gentle- toward a proposal to call a constitutional . man communicated with the people who convention, that a majority of those going ; \: SA TURD A Y EVENING SESSION 471 to the polls on that particular voting day, of the central note struck in our meeting favor the proposition. All the indifferent and tonight, let me say simply that we, as poli-' silent votes are counted against it, under ticians, are engaged in a moral enterprise. the most vicipus systeiTi(,iQi voting which it It is an enterprise of great significance th:^/' has ever been my discomfort to know? . touches suffering human beings, every Tiour 6f each of our days. In' its furtherance is 0-ft Party Ballots \y"rapped up the future hope of our society. May! close by returning to tfie source from .. In studying-the matter, I was amazed which I have learned all the philos<:)phy I. tofind that between 1870 and 1901 in this count worth reading, and a source to which • statCy^out.of five amendments proposed, not infrequently these days. I return, . five .were adopted because at that time in namely, the i^oets. Rupert Brooke, "out of the state, the method of voting on constitu the travail of a world holocaust, hai written tional amendments called for no official these simple lines: ballot. There were written ballots, but the ballots \yere prepared by political parties THE JOLLY COM PAX V and passed otit.at the polls by the workers of those parties. Therefore, all that was The stars, a Jmly company • necessary, in order to vote for a proposed I envied, straying late and. lonely .. calling of a constitutional convention, was And cried upon'their revelry ' . for the particular political group to wTite . ''O White Gompanionshipl you only upon its particular poll' ballot "Gonstitu- In love, in faith unbroken dwell. • tional,Amendment," and the person who FriendsTadiant and inseparable!"' took the ballot and cast his vote, assented to the proposition. That system seemed to Light heart and glad they seemed to me • be quite effective and was a system with And merry comrades (even so (Jod out which those who framed the constitution Of heaven may laugh U) see : in 1870 were familiar. > The happy crowds; and never know•'.,..•• Having had three changes in the law. . That in his. lone obscure distf-ess ^ i ' . since that tinie^ it :pccurred to me that it Each walketh in a wilderness) might be well to go back and try the method of voting with which those who framed the . But I, remembering, pitied well constitution were acquainted. That was •' And loved them who with lonely light • the genesis of the; movement Senator Smith In empty infinite space dwell has spoken about. Disconsolate. For all the liight ToASTMASTER SMITH: To retum now I heard the thin gnat voices cry from the' individual and., specific concerns Star to faint star, across the sky. that engross us daily, to the higher levels T/ie meeting adjourned at 10:30 p.m..
ett. /O
•ft.: Sunday Morning Session June 16, 1935,
HE meeting was called to order at working along hand in hand with the Arneri- ten-thirtv A.M. bv 4he Chairman, can Legislators' Association, I believe we THenry W: Toll. • are getting into motion a type of machinery \ CHAIRMAN TOLL : I shall call first on that is going to answer the very needs and Senator Grady,, of North Carolina. problems which I know have beset those SENATOR PAUL D. GRADY (North Caro of you from other states. I believe when lina) : We in North Carolina are very much you all realize that this Council is in earnest interested in this Council and in the Ameri and is putting into this matter of coopera can Legislators' Association. The matter- tion between states all the best thought and came up laS't winter while we were in session. ! the best judgment of men qualified to I was sent to<«\Vashington to attend, the .consider and to arrive at some solu Second Interstate oAssembly, On my re tion of these problems, one by one your turn,-while presenting my report to the states will come, into this Council as a unit, General Assembly, I found that they were willing to make such concessions as may very much interested in it. ' be necessary so that we may arrive at a. We "were in a. deadlock in (jur state for solution which,;will give us the best system five months wresthng with the problem of and best plan from a national standpoint. the sales tax. While we didn't like it, we had CHAIRMAN TOLL: MV. Gentry, West it. We don't believe it will ever be satis Virginia.,^ factory if it is to be adopted as a fixed HON: JOE G. GENTRY (West Virginia): policy of taxation. We think the tax should I would like to know if there is a means be limited at the source, coljected by the •si:ljU^'. . ('-. i-nrumnwii* **•*»"' -. .^-JLJL SUNDAY MORNING SESSION 473 more effective tl^an the dropping of letters who have been working in this field: have and releases into mail boxes. It is the perr been impressed with the necessity for per sonal contact that really interests them and sonal work in a regional way. We can , I think that anything you may do in the make necessary adjustments through vceg^ •way of interesting the local press and the ional secretariats. These men won't know, people ih your community in tfte work in all about any one state, maybe they won't which we are.engaged, will be of great know their own state very well, tut after service. two or three- years of experience they We do occasionally prepare newspaper will know a region pretty well, they releases which are sent to. the newspapers in will know the leading men, politically, various parts of the country. In connec in those regions, who to contact, who to tion with this meeting, for instance, there 'get together, who, if they want to, call wiB be two or three releases sent out, but, a conference, will attend, what men will of course, it takes time for the newspapers doi the talking and w^hat men they can count to become familiar with it, to discriminate, on to do some really good work. We need" to know whether it is something of signif that kind of a liaison officer, a? we used to . icance or simply a newspaper release that call him during the War. has. not any substantial background. Any CHAIRMAN TOLL: I desire at this time time anyone wants a newspaper added to to call on Senator INIastick. our release list, if you will kindly inform us, SENATOR SEABURY C. MASTICK ' (New we shall be glad to comply with your wishes. York): My friend Senator Berg made some • I shall next call oh Mr. Uible of Ohio. remarks yesterday relative to voluminous HON. FRANK R. UiBLE (Ohio): We in reports issued by state commissions. I Ohio are slowly awakeniTig to the im think he probably had reference to my latest portance of this type of work. In the last report on local government reorganization, session we have .Jjecome interested, as a comprising abut 700 pages. It is an' in legislature, in the- possibilities of this teresting summary, but I. know it is diffi Council. It seems to me that the general cult for every one of us to read-it. As I plans which have been outlined so far in looked through some reports yesterday I •. our discussion have" been practical and found one from Indiana, one irpm Pennsyl probably the most feasible manner of carry- vania, and one-from North Carolina, each Jng on this type of work. ^ - on the same problem. That is dneiof the CHAIRMAN TOLL: We will now hear things I think this Council willneed.t.Qgiye from Mr. Belknap of Kentucky, moreffttention to, a cenfra-l agency to which • HON. WILLIAM B. BELKN.AP (Ken we can write arid.determine whether or not tucky): I''have long been impressed .with we are duplicating effort. It costs money — .••'•-•ii55»^.i.i-'Vl the need for some, sort of approach to our to do reseaixh \vork. That information neighboring states. I once made the state should be made available through a secre ment, and Mr. Toll- has flattered me by tariat such as we haveTtereJri Chicago. using it a number of times since, that it The problems of all states~~are~^nat_! the was easier for , the state of Kentucky to sahie. That is the reason for regional secre approach China than it was to approach the tariats. The problems of the New York state of Indiana, across the river. We and New England states are largely indiis- go through the State Department of the ^. The problems of the western states Federal Government to get to Japan but we are HH^gely agricultural, but each state has have no governmental machinery to ap problems with its contiguous states. ' In proach Indiana, b !1^ : New" York Ave have had'a..successful ex V In the past twelve or fourteen years, that perience in our Port Authority compact peed has grown tremendously. It has iiot which went into effect in 1920. A compre been met by any other mechanism than the hensive bill for the development of the Port American Legislators' Association, at least of New York was presented in 1921, when not by any other organization which I I was a member of the Assembly. I think know. the compact had been made a year before. • I have.had very few original thoughts in The authority built bridges and tunnels and my life and have no" particular original buildings and has issued bonds for the thought on this subject, I.think all of you erection and construction of tliese various 474 THE BOOK OF THE ST A TES things arid has been generally successful: A^ Mr. Brownlow said yesterday.jVe are . It is composed of equal representation of citizens ^f all tfiree levels of government. authorized members from the state of New All three have their functions io perform Jersey and the state of New York. and all three must have taxation to support We have also cooperated with Pennsyl- those functions. It must come from you .; yania and Delaware in the matter of our - and me because we are the citizens who water supply, and with Connecticut and. pay th6 bill. Therefore, we are interested • New Jersey in regard to water pollution. ;;in seeing how these taxes are integrated We are cooperating with adjoining states and how the functions are allocated. That now, on the question of labor. I think we 'is the problem the Commission on Conflict ..will find, as we go on, that there are many ing Taxation is trying to settle between the such problems which we can adjust mu-, federal government and the states, and that' tually; the Tax Revision Council is trying to.meet Tax Revision Co'imcil in connection with the three levels o'f govern ment in this country. r wanted to speak particularly of the CHAIRMAN TOLL: I think' you can see question of competitive taxation, the prob from what Senator Mastick has said that lem of conflicting taxation, and the organiza : if there is any one problem which we have tion of the Tax Revision Council—although an organization set up to tackle, it is the. the Tax Revision Council is more interested tax-=.problemv ., : in fairly allocating taxation than doing I shall call next on .Senator Oneal of away with competitive taxation. In New Texas. '' :. York, we frequently hear the statement SENATOR ONEAL (Texas): After four made-that some company or,individual or months and" four days of continuous talk, industry is going to go away from New York in a body where there is no limitation on and ijiov^ to some other state because the the talking, I shall ask you to notify me ; taxes'are more favorable in the other state. when my limit has expired. It .seems to.vme that is something to be When I received the invitation to"'come ironed out by conferences between the dif here, I was very glad to have it. I came ferent states. • ' with a question mark in my mind. That I was impressed at the* Tax Revision question mark didn't mean that I doubted , Council meeting in \yashington by .the the sincerity or the earnestness of pur-' point which was brought but, it may be ' pose of this meeting, but rather as to what by'way of criticism, that every time a mo we might be able^'to do, I think there tion was made to take something away from has never been a more opportune time for j.,^.„theH»federal government and give it to the representatives, of the states to do some ' states it went through, but when a proposal thing than now, immediately after the de was made to take something from the states cision of the United-States Supreme Court, and give it to the federal government it did which throws back upon the states the not go through. It is an entirely one-sided matter of cooperating among themselves or proposition. You (?ann6t trade when the of having taken from them,'by. constitu trading":is only one sided. We tried to. tional amendment, the-jjpowers they have trade some taxes—^tobacco for electric had heretofore!;'"" | - - energy or tobacco .fOX'gasoline. We found, .'. We have had some experience -with in however, that it was all,right to trade only terstate compacts. 'Recently, as you men ^. on something where we were going to get from Colora,do, Kansas,, and other states the benefit. : " " know, the oil states entered into a compact There must be give and take in this with reference to the, production of oil. It thing and I think we'have to give up the. is probably not all it should be, but wie hope selfish notion that, any one state can avoid it is something that will stave off absolute a proposition which would, lead to a proper federal control of the. oil business and will integration of that most important subject permit the oil people to operate their in -of the proper allocation of taxes and the dustry. Oklahoma started this movement. proper allocation of the burden of taxation Texas joined in it. The rneeting was held in on the citizens of the loQality, of the state, Dallas, Texas. Colorado has joined in tl^is_ and of the federal government.' ' compact, has ratified it, and I think Kansas . c. SUNDAY MORNING SESSION 475 and^California have also done sol It re apple.cart completely and be back where mains for the federal government to enforce we started. that compact. We. frequently have had, There are many, problems,' questions, of and now have,, compacts with adjoining ta.xation, and trucking legislation, and liquor states, with New Mexico in reference to control,—myriads of problems which a water on the Peeps River, with-Oklahoma single state cannot solve alone. Yet I in reference to the northern boundary of think it would be a great mistake indeed the state, with Oklahoma, also, in reference for an individual state to give up its to bijilding bridges. sovereign rights over-those problems.' We In 1931 when the cotton situation became in Oregon are very jealous of our rights. I serious, we had a special session, and if at think the states should continue to be that time the idea of state compacts had ad^ jealous of their rights and .of their sover vanced to the present level, I think the cot eignty. I think we should do nothing as an ton states would have put some limitation organization to.override..j:hat. The farther on production. Texas produces one-third we proceed along that line, the more we will of the cotton .in' this country and at that be defeating our own purpose. time, the marketing price didn't pay for CHAIRMAN TOLL: I.shallnext call upon thie picking. \ye passed a statute in Texas Senator Weiss of Indiana. limiting the aradiint that could b^ produced ; SENATOR JACOB WEISS (Indiana): The for two years. • In view of the ^act that first thought that occurs to me is: how can the other states .did not follow suit and we state compacts be made effective? .1 don't did ntot go at it in the right way arid know of any way in which we can make one of our courts held the law unconstitu the observance of a compact compulsory, tional, the effort did not produce results. , Idon't know how the state of Indiana is CHAIRMAN TOLL: Mr. Ahgell has, as going to impose any penalty on the State angels should, flown here froni Oregon to of Kentucky for not observing interstate attend this meeting. It is a great pleasure agreements. We make truck and bus com to call on him. pacts with the state of Kentucky. We try HON. HOMER D. ANGELL'(Oregon): We to cooperate in many different ways. in.cQjrjegon have problems as you have, local We have the Ohio River as a boundary prol:^lems and regional problerns which go line between Indiana and Kentucky. A across state lines. On, the Columbia we have court once said that the boundary line, as th£ development of the hydro-electric prob- • it existed. at the time the boundary was lem which is not an interstate problem, al fixed, should not be altered by the changing though the state immediately adjoining it flow of the s'tream. We have a community is interested. We have, in addition, the in the state of Indiana known as Dade fishing industry which cannot be confined" Park. Part of it lies within the city of to state lines in connection.with those states Evansville in the state.of Indiana and the bordering on the Pacific. It is a large in rema.inder in Kentucky. Dade Park has dustry in our section of the country and has- - gambling, horse racing, and every vice always been a big industry in the United which confronts a".legislature. We cannot States. It goes out beyond asingle^ state's : do anything about it. We have tried sovereignty, as our neighbors, the states of compacts time and again with-the state Washington and California know, ajid so of Kentucky, without avail. we are all very much interested. 'We have The thought: occurred to me that we are attempte'd to solve those problems by co overlooking in this meeting and, generally, operation . among ourselves, voluntarily, in the United States something which has without any outside help. We have not just been brought to the fore as a result hKd "very much success. of the recent Supreme Court decision. A I think we, as an organization, can do a very important point was made in the great deal'in the way of cooperation and Supreme Court decision, in the Schechter suggestipns and advicjg, but if we become Case and the oil case that preceded it a resigned to the fact 'that we are going,to month before, in regard to the delegation have a great deal more power lodged in the of power and authority to the executive federal government than was intended by branch. Are not we, in our discussion here, the Constitution, I think we will upset the in our present approach to the question pf I. '--IV. 476 THE'BOOK OF-THEST-ATES state commissions, doing this same thing?. the conferees, except to say I think,your, I am speaking of Indiana and cannot speak suggestion as to an integrated relationship for the condition in any other state in the between the commission and the Legislative , union. No administrative boiJy, no execu Reference Bureau is very sound. tive deputy can come before the General Senator Graves, of Tennessee, has been Assembly and get anything done. Phil active in this field. I might say at the Zoercher has attended your meetings. He outset that at the . Second Interstate As- . has been our tax commissioner for twenty- sembly. Senator Graves headed a delega five years and knows taxes as I believe no tion" of eight members, I believe, from the other man does, and it is with all due respect Tennessee Legislature who came to Wash for him that I say this, but he couldn't ington—each man at his ow'n e.xpense—to come to the General .Aissembly of Indiana attend the meeting. arid get any kind of report adopted. . SENATOR ANDREW J. GRAVES (Tennes My suggestion with regard to a set-up see): We have not done a great deal about for cooperation between the several states interstate cooperation in Tennessee, but I is this: that we build legislative machinery. . want t() say to you that after that committee 'L«;t us say that the committee on interstate of ten visited and attended the conference cotoerationJnihe senate, which is_now a in :AVashington there was a great, deal of standing committee by resolution, and a interest manifested upon our returit to the . ^committee on interstate cooperation in the .legislature. .house, which, becomes a standing commit I found in our legislature, \yhich recently tee by resolution, shall comprise the Indiana adjourned, that therevvas .a great deal of '. Commission on Interstate.Cooperation, with .literature pertaining to the American Legis a continuing appropriation for its expenses lators' .Association and the Council of State and. for. the maintenance of whatever :it__ -Goyernments. I feel that my state.will needs in the way of a secretariat. soon make an appropriation to help take In Indiana we have a permanent Legisla care of the expenses of this organization. tive Reference Bureau. Perhaps this refer I have been working on'that for some time. ence biireau could become the permanent Itis a matter of education. You have to '" •secretariat for, the permanent commission educate people as to what,-.you are cloing^ created by statute. Then if you want the here. ' . . t cooperatibn or need the expert advice of CKAIRMAN TOLL: .Apropos of one ques- ' an administrative head-or executive head' tion rais-ed, as to whettier the meml^ers of of the several departments of the state, the legislature are conscious of the existence . call them in; by law, provide they must and function of the .American Legislators' assume, and perform the delegated job pre '.Association, I might say no one is more sented to them by this permanent commis conscious than I am of the fact that there""--.., sion on interstate cooperation. is greats variation among the states. In . \^'e in Indiana have a practice, and I some states-the legislators are hardly aware assume other states follow the same prac of the existence of the organization; in tice, of complying with agreements in which others you'find a very different situation. we are a party. I believe that if you can We would like to hear from Senator ' set; lip a permanent organization of that ]\Iaw, President of the Utah Senate. kind within a state you might be able to SENATOR HERBERT B. MAW (Utah): .As get something done. If you drag in the I have been sitting here, I have been par- '.- executive or the administrative branches ticularly impressed with one or two facts. with equal authority on this commission you The.first is the need of an association such . will get nothing done. T speak with the as this. I shall speak from the standpoint- .'highlest. regard for our governor and • ad of'Utah, ' Our state has a population of ministrative officials, but I speak from a about half, a million people, and an area practical viewpoint. . ; of some eighty-three thousand square miles. Cii.-MKMAN TOLL: T think Senator Weiss Yet in that state' we have some of the has raised some interesting questions. I . greatest wealth of the world. They tell shall .not participate in the discussion as us you could close down all the coal mines to the present set-up of the commission, in the .world except those in Utah and we which will be a matter of discussion among would have e,n.pugh to supply the world r SUNDAY MORNING SESSION 477 \for five hundred years. Some of the largest strong unions. We can work our men and . 'coal mines are in Utah, and I think my . women unlimited hours. We have a state state leads the United States in the pro . law but our-wages are low. It causes a duction of silver and many other metals. serious situation in competition. with the Some of these mines are owned by outside highly organized centers. Directly or in capital and although enormous wealth is directly, it is a problem for the different taken from our state, yet every year we sections of the country to solve. get very little of it. For example,-one Utah I think this organization has a wonderful- copper mine alone paid in dividends, two opportunity to get together and formulate or three years ago, thirty-four million dol plans for bringing the states closer together. lars. Utah receives almost nothing, in , They should be willing to cooperate. It comparison, from taxes on these, mines, is a matter of finding means and methods -. The primary reason is that a majority of of ."doing that. the legislators are afraid to tax them. The CHAIRMAN TOLL : We are very pleased . same people who own the Utah mines p\\Ti to have with us the.President of the Na- the Montana mines and the Arizona mines, ti(mal Association of Attorneys General. ' and if we tax.them they threaten to shut That organization, which has great pos down in Utah and operate in ^Montana!. sibilities, has been given a very distinct They can go to Montana and say, "You tax impetus during the administration of us and we will shut down and go to Utah." General Averill. ' -•^•*- If, through this organization, the Utah, HON. ERNEST L. .-VVERILL (Connecticut)T" ?vIontana, and Ariizbna. groups could' get .\fter attending the' last meeting of the together and 'd'e"\^i'se' a uniform method of Interstate .Assembly and before that, the taxing this; one industry we would solve meetings of the Planning Board of the Coun • a tremendous problem. cil of State Governments, it occurred to I suggest that it\should be a duty of me tha,t the a;ttorneys general might ex-^ whatever committees are appointed, whether periment. So T called into conferericet;the they be national or regional, to lay upon attorneys general of the New England and the desks of the legislators uniform laws Middle Atlantic states. Our discussion at to be passed-and let-the legislatures"pass that conference was confined to interstate those laws with whatever variation may be cociperationrand J found there was unarii-. necessary to fit their own particular state. mous opinion among all present that they If the mining sections could have uniform were heartily in sympathy w;ith this move laws, the coal groups could.have uniform ment. The interstate relationships between . laws, and all.the states have uniform tax attorneys general have always been cordial. laws and liquor laws and things of that They have aUvays stood ready to aid, nature, we could do much to preserve states' through their legal departments, any sort rights and we could accomplish a great of reciprocal agreements which might be deal for the people. . devised among the states. CHAIRM.AN TOLL; 1 would like to call I think probably the most outstanding next (m i\Ir. Killian who is the chairman, result of that conference was this: it was of the House Committee on Interstate.Coop the opinion of those present that you can eration in the Arkansas legislature. go farther, and can accomplish more, if HON. CHARLES A. KILLIAN (.Arkansas): you can get a group of people together to It is a source of genuine pleasure to have know each other, and to sit down and talk this opportunity to be here, to listen, and about their common interests. It iriipressed to learn. We have had our troubles in them ? ; favorably that we have an invita Arkansas, just as you have had them in- tion fi(;n the attorney general of Massa- Colorado and New York. I was impressed chu.setts to hold another regional meeting •: -by one or two statements made here in this in his state, and the conference voted to respect; One, gentleman referred to the accept it. industrial situation.' Arkansas is, of course, At the last session of' the Connecticut J an agricultural state and, incidentally, we legislature, it was provided that the new have a small beginning of the textile in • highway bridge which is to imite New York- dustry down there. The" New England and €!onnecticut should be placed in charge states are highly organized. They have of our highway commissioner, who is to <* 1 .-i. 478 THE BOOK OF THE STATES make an agreement with the highway de New York, at least, and perhaps some of partment of New York State, providing for the other New York compacts, they have its construction and the allocation of ex introduced, recently, a provision that in case pense. A similar law was passed in New of any disagreement between the parties York, so these two states are willing to . it shall be submitted to arbitration. Those cooperate. "' • are three methods which are in existence Provision was also made at the last for the enforcement of compacts. • session that the motor vehicle commissioner CHAIRMAN TOLL: It.is a great pleasure might arrange with any other state so that to call bn Professor Coker of Yale Uni public service motor vehicles might come versity, President of the American Political into our state without; registration, provid Science Association. " ing they wouI(^ permit ours to go into their PROFESSOR FRANCIS W. COKER (Yale states without registration. University): I suppose I have the distinc We gave our milk administrator the power tion of being the most temporary conferee to confer and to make agreements not only here. If there is anything an outsider can with the federal government but with other do for you \yho are continuing in your im stiates. We have a Boston milk shed and mediate relations Avith this Council, and a Providence milk shed. We have i.prob Association it is to evaluate what "you Have lem with Wisconsin and other mid-western done. Rather from the outside, I think states in regard to cream. So we have put you are entitled to take a much more opti our milk administrator in a position where mistic view tha.n you do.„ You have already he has the power to cooperate. We'have accomplished a great deal. passed three uniform laws--T-a uniform nar Already your regular publications and cotic law, a uniform machine gun law, and the.reports of your activities are among the a uniform excise tax law. In addition, we most valuable material there is available continued the Tri-State Commission on to students of government, both under Long Island Sound'and New York Harbor. graduates and graduates. They have been We passed a bill establishing an interstate utilizedwith a great deal of interest. To compact commission on labor and industry, one with at least rather lengthy observa which is cooperating with other states. It tion of organizations of various sorts^ all will be composed of one representative of the signs seem to indicate that this organi • labor, who will probably be our labor com zation has one of the most promising futures missioner, one representative .of the manu of any organization Thave observed in.the- facturing industry, and one of the general last twenty-five years. • public. We also provided for an interstate Our fundamental problems are not much compact c^ommission on waterways, which different than they were at the beginning of will apply to all New England states. this country's history, but the entire social. SEXATOR WEISS: I am very much in political,:economic,.and industrial environ terested in finding some way out of the ments areObvioush^ changing, and we are problems presented. I.think they are very too.virulent a people not to solve our prob-' important for the welfare of our several lems. The two alternative methods are to states and the country as a whole. As I solve, them by putting all the responsibility, said before, I don't know how interstate in \\'ashington or to leave it with the states. compacts can be made effective when, one It seems to me there is absolutely no hope of the states refuses to observe the pro of leaving it to the states unless they:.are visions of the compact. Can someone help going to consult and cooperate in just the • me with that problem? way this organization is providing., ,. GENERAT; AVERILL: That question came CHAIRMAN-TOLL: We are also glad to lip at the conference in Providence. Iii the. be. greeted by the arrival this morning of first place, as t recall, the Supreme C(DUrt Dr. Luther Gulick,.Director of t'he.Institute of the United States has the jurisdiction of Public-Administration, one of the two to enforce any compact betw'een states.. or three most important active research There are some compacts which p'royide agencies in thefield of government in the that the cQuacts of each state may be open United States. to each of the parties to that compact. In DR. LUTHER GULICK: I was mucji im some 0/ the compacts between Vermont and pressed by the statenrient made at the very SUNDAY MORNING SESSION 479 opening of our session today by Senator who believe the function should be placed, ^ Grady of North Carolina, who spoke of where it can most effectively be performed, the way in which problems grow up in this we want to be prepared to face that situa country. We see a problem arise in some tion^ . : : ' - • particular area. It may impress itself onl3> It .does not seem to me that that implies . upon a given state, a little later we find giving up any powers; which the states can that it is present in several states, and still 'exercise. It means the transfer, to the na later on it becomes what we call a national tional administrative mechanism, of the problem. control over powers which the states cannot These problems don't wait. They boil, themselves effectively exercise; therefore, up and something has to be done at the time there is no real loss of states' rights pro the people suddenly'become excited about vided the institution of the program is so .them. If we don't have the machinery to planned as to fit into the manifest, needs meet these problems when they come to the of the-country as a whole^,^ T threshold of public opinion we are going CHAIRMAN TOLL: Before we adjourn for to see.thenijhandled by agencies that do lunch, I want to call on Mr, Zimmerman exist. That is the greatest danger, as I of the New York legislature, the author see it, in the handling of problems by the of the resolution which established the local elements of our governmental struc standing committee on interstate coopera ture. • tion in the house and the correspond Therefore, it seems to* me as I look into ing committee in the senate of New York. the future, that it is of tremendous im- State. '•"":•• portarice that there be established through HON. FREDERICK L. ZIMMERMAN (New the regional secretariats, through the Coun York): I.have heard something said about cil, the American Legislatprs' Assocration, consciousness on the part of the legisla-. the Association of Attorneys General and tures of our organization. I think, in New these other groups, machinery that will be York, I might define that as a state of semi oiled and ready to act when a problem consciousness. Possibly my state is awalTen- boils up. • . ing to the usefulness of this organization The .Senator from Indiana referred to because we did succeed in getting an ap- problems of control' through compact. prdpriation through again, this year. " There we tackle an entirely new problem My own personal opinion is that this is with which we have not yet had adequate one of the most important pieces of work experience. The framing of the federal in which the state has engaged and there constitution came as a result, in part, of are others in New York who agree with the failure to deal with economic controls me. Some of us in the legislature feel that through a confederation which was, in effect, in the process of centralization, or.-the a compact system. It may be that after tendency toward, centralization which we \ve have experimented further with the de have today, possibly the only way of saving velopment of control through compacts, some of-our states' rights and at the same particularly in the economic field, we will time, solving our problems will-be^-t€rough. discover that the most effective and.only an organization of this kind.. If, after a satisfactory method of enforcement will be time, we.are'willing to admit that we can through thecarrying of those problems into not seem to find a solution, then we must the field of the federal government. I submit to centralization. ,/ . \ think as state representatives, but as those ' Rrccss at tivchc-th'irty p.m. ••^JL-.- June 16,-1935. HE meeting urns called' to order at there is personal contact. I. would rather two-thirty P.M. b\i the Chainnah, have fifty people leave this room enthusias THenry W. Toll. • ' ' tic than 5,000 people'just lukewarm. • CHAIRMAN TOLL: I shall now call*t)n CHAIRMAN TOLL; The reference which Senator Lazear, chairman of the Wyoming Senatoj- Lazear niade to the Interstate ;As- Senate Committee on Interstate .Coopera sembly prompts me to mention this fact, tion. •'-_''•' lam not sure whether this relationship Is SENATOR EDWARD .T. L-.\ZEAR (Wyo definite in your own minds, whether you ming) : There^is no doubt in my mind but realize svh.at is going on here as to the that this body can be one of the most Interstate Assembly. There have been effective organizations in the country. two sessions of the Assembly, one in 1933 There is no end to the possibilities con and one in 1935. At each of. those.meet nected with the purpose of cooperation be-, ings, each house and each governor was tween the states. invited to send one or more delegates. : At I am very much wrapped up in this work- the 1935 meeting forty-eight states, either and very enthusiastic,: I do regret that by legislative action or by the governor, or under our form of government a'man-can bothv named official delegates to the meet build up, interest.and enthusinsm in this ing, and forty-two of the states actually got project, when he is a member of the senate their delegates there. So it was an un- or the house today; and yet be.gone to [)recedented gathering of the representa morrow. That is unfortunate, I believe. tives of the states. On the other hand, if other people conie When a commi-ssionof the Xew Jersey in and take our places, sooner or later we type is established in a state, .you have a -are_lo_getjmore and more people interested chairman of the'house committee, a perma in the work and~Tt~'w1irnr)f~lTf'l(7ng^ nent position: you have a GorrespKinding Mr. Toll and the rest of his organization chairman of the senate committee; and you willhave the whole-hearted interest of all have an adniinistrative official appointed the states. Some day we shall find former by the governor as chairman of the.com members of these committees attending mission. Those three represent delegates these rneetings-in other capacities; a con of the type whom we have invited the states stantly growing number of people will be to send to the Interstate .Assembly in the vitally interested and enthusiastic about past. Were there forty-eight commissio.ns t^e work. Then when we go into the dif of the New Jersey type, the personnel of ferent states with these proposals.and dif the Interstate Assembly would be deter ferent measures, gradually we are going to mined in advance, with^ each man holding --"( see, in the background, the influence of a permanent, regular position in his own members of the third house, people whose state. There- would not be any occasion enthusiasm was built up long ago. • As I to ask the states to nam'e^^delegates to the see it, du'r whole problem is to keep going Interstate Assembly because there are along, having regional meetings and na these three chairnien from each state-who tional meetings, such as the Interstate As would automatically be considered the offi sembly, with the idea- of creating interest cial delegates. and enthusiasm.. I would like to call next on Speaker As some gentleman said this morning, I Watenpaug;h of AVyoming. don't think any newspaper publicity is very SPEAKER HENRY D. W^ATENPAUGH effective in a matter of this, kind unless ;(Wyoming): Certainly many problems can 480 SUNDAY AFTERNOON SESSION 481- be adyantageously discussed at meetings mastered the art of getting "elected and that of this type and.at regional conferences.- after the next election some of us are Tt has been brought forcibly to my mind, going to find our political futures behind and I think to the minds of i^st of you us. The best we can do is to preach the » here,'-that it is strictly up to the states gospel of cooperation wherever .we go, whether we are going to have a continuance whether we are in the legislature or not. of state control, or whether the powers are. CHAIRMAN TOLL: I should have said going to be delegated to an authority en that Speaker Watenpaugh is himself serv tirely outside the states by reason of our ing as the chairman of the Wyoming House , failure to cooperate. Committee on Interstate Cooperation. It In connection with the matter of trans now gives me pleasure to call on the chair portation, I think that.mptor vehicle regu man of the House Committee on Interstate ' lation is an outstanding.example of an Cooperation of the Washington.legislature, instance where the states must cooperate Mrs. Myers. : . • if transportation regulation is not to be MRS. MYERS: In the matter of.coopera taken over by the Interstate Commerce tion, I Cannot say that our state has done Commission. That is something which is very well. Our neighboring state of Oregon not sectional, although there are sectional sent a delegation- to our state last winter. problems which do affect each particular Their law calls for a three day lapse be region governed by its trade areas, not.by tween the announcement of a marriage and ' state lines, which are altogether man made, the marriage itself. They wanted the state but by economic buying-and-selling trade of Washington to do the same thing. Port . areas. . land, claims that a lot of so-called ''gin • We in Wyoijiing and some of the adjoin marriages" come over into their state from ing states would not be interested in some other areas. They wanted us to do some of the things that the eastern or southern thing about it. Unfortunately, the Wash states are interested in, However, we do ington legislature was just a bit irritated • have problems which are just as vital to to have a representative delegation from us as your problems are to you. the neighborintj state come over the line, ^ A great difficulty in the "western states. not to dictate to us. but to ask us to do concerns the equitable distribution of water something about their; problem^ I think for irrigation purposes. The states of the irritation was caused mostly by the Colorado, iS^ebraska, and Wyoming are con fact, that they came toward the close of tinually having disputes over this question. the session, when each of us wias trying to There c re cases in the Supreme Court of do our own particuiar job as well as we . the United States now covering the use of could. At the same time, tha;t irritation water in those states. (, did e.xist. The older members could ap Nebraska and Wyoming have, had preciate what that cooperation meant and trouble, to a certain extent, over hay con what it would mean to themselves and. a trol. We have an irrigated district close neighboring state. • • . to the border and hay is produced in Wyo • CHAIRMAX TOLL:; Going from the ex ming, Montana, and Nebraska. Wyoming treme northwest section of the country to : and Nebraska won't let hay be shipped the extreme, southeast port'on, it gives me from Torrington, eight miles from the state pleasure to call on the chairman of the • line, down into the dry land sections of Florida House Committee on Interstate • Nebraska, where they need hay. Of course, Cooperation, jNIr. Robineau. we know we have superior country in Hox. S. .PiERRK ROBINEAU (Florida): Wyoming, but apparently the alfalfa.weevil This is my maiden appearance at one of doesn't infest the Nebraska hay, although your assemblies, therefore I am not versed / the weevil is prevalent in Wyoming hay, in your project or purpose except insofar according to the Nebraska entoriiologist. as I have been able to gather it from these Another thing which has been mentioneH discussions. All I can do is to give some here has been the turnover in legislatures. impressions t have received from what has -At the Interstate Assembly in Washington, been said. I learned that the science of government The thing which impresses me niore must be conducted by those who have.first vividly than ever is.the fact that we. still f) ^ 482 THE. BOOK OF THE STA TES have two definite schools of thought with opinion^ the frontier problems between the reference tq our government, as to whether states. It is only' on the frontiers t|iat it is a nation of one sovereignty, or.a na you have the acute perplexity. You have tion of forty-eight sovereignties, or whether the motor vehicle situation. You have the it is a nation of forty-eight; sovereignties matter of prevention and apprehension of and one super-sovereignty. As you may crime. You have extradition of criminals, gather from, my gepgraphidal location arid . and" so forth. You have the matter of from my .political faith,: it is niy opinion. overlapping ta.xation going from one that there are forty-eight sovereignties and boundary to the other as emphasized es no more, and that there is one agency to= pecially by the sales tiax where, through the keep those forty-eight sovereignties in a agency of interstate ^commerce, one non- stateof amity, mutual cooperation, aiicl pro taxing state gets an advantage, by mail tection. order shipments and interstate commerce ^It impresses me that the doctrine of shipments, over another state that does not forty-eight sovereignties has proved itself, have the sales tax. X. accommodating itself, as it has, to the in-_ To a large extent, iT^ee^ns to me that dividual rights of states, which have been these interstate problems, e^specially among growing by leaps and bounds in economic bordering states, can easily be solved by wealth and political thought, which his mutual cooperation. There are other things provided greater political freedom and. a that go further than the regional situation, viider distribution of wealth than has ever necessarily, especially those problems of , been "enjoyed by any human society in the interstate commerce involving the matter history of rnan. It is unreasonable that of equality and equity in the determinatiort.^^, ' it. could be said to have failed within the of freight ratjes. For instance, in. the bring short, period of a few years, after 150 years ing of produce to centralized markets, the 'of wholesome, progressive, advantageous : differentials imposed by a federal body development. make the freight, rates frorn one state so What are the troubles? Our troubles are different from fr'eight rates in another state, that/when any two sovereignties adjoin, that the-same product, with identical pro each is jealous of its rights, prerogatives, duction costs, cannot be placed at the same pri^'il(?ges, and hopes of expansion. We value in those markets. find conflict between their two purposes, I am very happy to be here and I hope a^id. of course, the whole theory, of universal to participate in further deliberations. peace is going to be based on just what . CHAIRM.AN TOLL:, It gives-me pleasure ^e are going to work out. We have detnon- to call upon Senator Green of Nebraska. /strated'for 150 years, with one slight un SENATOR CHARLES . D. GREEN pleasantness, "thabit has be^n possible for (Nebraska): . Nebraska, under its upi- . this family of sovereignties to get along, cameral system, will probably present some and do so progressively and advantageously. thing new and something that you will all .The. whole \yorld is sometime going to find watch. I am not going to claim any virtue out that the thing canbi? done'. for it. yet. I believe itAsill expedite the ac The heginning of that doctrine of uni- tion of the legislature about fifty per cent. ver-ijal peace'is in the laboratory of Ameri .'\s to the quality of legislation, I have can, government. It is to be the result of nothing to say.. cooperation, a voluntary r«/r«/r carried The gentleman from Wyoming remarked out between neighboring -states so their a while ago about our alfalfa weevil. We regional problems can be solved by mutual have a little peeve against their state in; . discussion and earnest desire to redu€e con regard to the North Platte River. As you flicting attitudes, which is the only human know, in our section of the country the and sound way it is ever going to be done. waters of the streams ?ire valuable assets, ' ^That is not a relinquishment of sover In the water shed of the North Platte River eignty in my opinion.: On the contrary, it we have been spending over sixty million is an, emphasizing of the right" to bargain dollars in the development, of irrigation with personalities or states of equal dignity works with, the result that we.produce a and power. Insofar as our Council is con large quantity of sugar, which is our only cerned, the problems are largely, in my industrial activity. SUN DA Y AFTERNOON SESSION 483 •».» For the benefit of the gentleman from in Arizona, the cry is that they will open Indiana, I wish to state we have success the coppeF mines somewhere else. .That fully entered into legislative agreenients be situation needs immediate attention. tween the, states west of us. AVe have one I would like to take this opportunity with Colorado, dealing with the waters of to express my appreciation of the work of the South Pla:tte River. The compact is these various organizations, I think maybe strictly observed since it was wholly, satis I have pestered the American Legislators' factory to the state of Colorado. Colorado Association for information as much as any got all the water. They observe it strictly. body in the last few years. We have no recourse. Wyoming and From my contact with laboring elements Nebraska have not yet settled their diffi and other groupsi', I Believe the mass of culty and the suit is now pending in the people are going to demand',some sort of Supreme Court of the United States, trying governmental action aimed at trying to to establish the water rights on the North reniedy the lack of individual opportunity Platte River. I don't know how this case and the lack of favourable economic condi will come out but we do hope it will be. tions. If the states cannot supply that ac equitable. .: tion , they will want- the federal government We have the problem with the mountain to do it. If the federal government can states on the slope to the west'.' Living in not supply it, under the constitiitibn, I am the western end'of Nebraska, my.com- afraid we will have tremendous pressure munityhas identical interests with Colorado to go ahead and disregard, the constitution and Wyoming. I am closer to the capital and do what .Tiany people want (^e. So of those states, than j am .to. my own. So we can render a very distinct service in that the cooperative movement had an ap this phase of our economic development by peal to me from the start, and I became fostering, as much as possible, interstate active in it two years ago. I am strongly cooperation and by that means help satisfy of the opinion we can do a great deal with the demands of the people for remedial our regional meetings. • Alpng that line I action. ydsh. to bring out another idea in the fact I, personally, am rather sk'^tical as to that the eastern half of Colorado is similar just how we are going-to come oui\of the . to Nebraska biit the west half, of Colorado situation in this country. It is gdihg to is essentially mineral. In the organization take a lot of-thought and ^affort> ^ur of a regional meeting, Colorado, W^yoming, prosperity in the last hundred years or Montana, and New Mexico should be in more has been a matter, of course. In the the agricultural states and also in the future I think we are going to be able to mineral states meeting in the west, because obtain the standards we want in America they have an interest similar to those of . only through a great deal of thought and the. western states and also an interest effort. We cannot continue on a hit or miss. similar to those of the eastern states. plaUj but we must, have a plan carefully CHAIRMAN TOLL: I desire at this time thought out, well directed, and backed up to call on the chairman of the House Com by hard work. mittee on Interstate Cooperation in Arizona, CHAIRMAN TOLL: It is a (great pleasure which incidentally, is a very cooperative to call'on the'President of the National Tax state. Mr. Rapp. v .Association. I might say, in connectipn , HON. JOHN H. RAPP (.Arizona): In with that .Association, that we have had a Arizona we are interested in interstate co- very close and beneficial relationship with . operation in various ways. We wili be glad • it for a number of years It is Very ap to confer with the senator from Utah, at propriate that Henry Long, who is the some time, in regard to the matter of taxa-. Commissioner of Corporations and Taxa tion and.other laws affecting mines. If we tion in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, did that, it would eliminate one of, our \ should be the "President of that Associa major pohtical problems. When we under tion, for there is no state official in the take to pass a tax law or, any bther item, United States who is better known in. the of legislation covering these mines we enter tax field.than is Mr.' Long. It is a.pleasure into the situation referred to by the senator to call on Mr. Long. from Utah. If we apply such legislation HON. HENRY F.'LONG: We in New ( •.•; 484 THE BOOK OF THE STATES England have been compelled to do that lines along which states can ^e very co which you are suggesting here. We have operative. fought in terms of New England and I CHAIRMAN TOLL : If is now my privilege think, on the whole, we have worked quite to call oh the representative of the Florida harmoniously together.. It occurs to me Senate Committee, on Interstate Goopera- that with New England and New York tion, Senator Gillis. working harmoniously together we can pro SENATOR D. STUART GILLIS (Florida): tect ourselves to a certain extent and; by I am impressed With the regional idea of example, ;Over a long period, we have given cooperation, becauseinTHis great nation of to the other states of the union and other ours we have a wide diversity of interests. sections of the country, a model path which It might be interesting to you to know that they can follow to even greater heights in I am now as far from my home city as,-my /Cooperation. .- home city is from the city in which my The facf that Arkansas now sees that distinguished colleague, Mr. Robineau, there may be some relationship between the lives. In other words: it is as far from my textile industry of New England and their town to tWe southernmost part of the state Own industrial problem is a growing sign of Florida, as it is from Chicago to the of what is developing generally, \vith which - Florida line. i am in hearty accord. . ' " I have said I regard the regional idea The National Tax Association, for about as a most valuable one. Although the sub thirty years, has been offering an oppor ject has been banned by.thie chairman. I tunity to those who had thoughts in respect cannot help but make this reference to the to tax proposals, some that had been tried, matter of taxation...because as Senator some that had not been tried, some that, Mastick of New York sa:id, the principle were wise and a great many more unwise—- business of government is collecting and an oppdVtunity, through annual conferences, spending money, and the only Way we can to express their views. ! Those views are get tfie money is .by taxation. We have embodied perrnanently, in volumes avail- upon our northern boundaries; and western ' able for any one who wants to study the. boundaries the states of Georgia and Ala problem of taxation. I think you will find, bama. We have struggled with the same in the proceedings of the National Tax -As sales tax idea that some of you other sociation, many of the things you are dis gentlemen have mentioned. Neither one cussing and thinking. It is with a great of those contiguous states has a sales tax. deal of satisfaction that I thank Director A Florida sales tax would drive the com Toll in behalf of the National Association mercial industries, the business patronage for his acknowledgment of the benefit to these other states. We have success which the collection of those various ad fully resisted that movement regardless of dresses has been to him. , the economic "Roundness of the sales tax I believe thoroughly in what the American idea. • Legislators' Association and the Council We are also confronted with another sub of State Governments are; trying to ac ject that has been very interesting to me complish under the direction of Mr. Toll. but not discussed at length. That is liquor The regional secretary idea is excellent, traffic. Neither of these adjoining states with the proviso that there must always be. is wet. Florida is wet. T was told by peo : contact with the central office, to get the ple who deal in liquor in Florida that the • benefit of what is happening in other parts distilleries and breweries in the city of of the union. Cincinnati. Ohio...under the permit issued . There is still wide open opporttinityifor to dealers in my state. «hip liquor, indis development along the lines' of uniform criminately under those permits to .Ala corporate laws and uriiform municipal-ac bama. Georgia, and ^Mississippi, without counting laws and uniform reporting, so consultation of'th"e~pennittee, of the man. his able associate, Mr. Martin, cannot w^ho would be entitled to exercise the right. again come to a meeting such as this saying That is a very serious problem and seems that he has found a great paucity of infor to be one that could be followed up and mation which ought to be, but which is. not, solved by adjustment between the states gathered by the states. T suggest those. most vitallv interested.' 1^ SUNDAY AFTERNOON SESSION 485 . CHAIRMAN TOLL: I want to call next, Our interest in the activities, not only of upon a gentleman from Maryland, who, this Council, but of the American Legisla despite his apparent youth, has been the tors' Association can perhaps best be'evi president of a college, has been a member denced by the fact that at the Interstate of the legislature, and is now Assistant ,Assembly in Washington last March, "the United States District Attorney, Mr. Doug state of Ohio had ten representatives pres las Gordon. ent. We have four representatives present HON. DOUGLAS H. GORDON (Maryland): in Chicago at this meeting, including the It seems" to me we are agreed, clearly, Spealvtr an.d the Speaker /TO tern of the on the importance of regional work House,^h'e" chairman of the tax^^* Ion com leading to compacts. In the crime conven mittee, and the whip Of th^ .aajority party tion which was held in Washington last of the Senate. Speak: .Bittinger just ar fall, Mr. Toll was very much interested,.and rived this mornin.i; after attending the Con so was I, in a speech on compacts. At that ference of Governors in Biloxi, Mississippi, time the federal government was still going • as the official representative of Governor strong, the NRA was being enforced, and Dayey of Ohio. - some of us felt that possibly compacts A meeting was held in Cleveland this would retain the; last vestige of local, feel week which I think may be of more than ing in the various sections. Now, however, passing-interest. As I was leaving. I read with the NRA clearljijQut of the way and in the newspaper about a gatherinn of- .with an apparent ten|||rcy to return to representatives from about fourteen states states' rights and state action, certainly the who were concerned with the administra states have their last chance to cooperate tion of the liquor laws. Various commis if there is not to be a constitutional, amend sioners and administrators in the states ment. With that situation, the compact that have liquor control commissions met idea comes very much to the fore. We have there in an effort to get together upon some heard that word more in the last ninety uniform plan of labelling and branding days than in the previous ninety years. It liquor, establishing standards of quality seems.: to .me the question is, how are we and that sort of thing. It was occasioned gOijfi^o start arranging any regional work? by the breakdown of-the code, and it merely When we came here yesterday we.repre illustrates the ' purposes to which the sented a good many "people from all over, Council of State Governments can be put in the country and even our versatile chair- endeavoring to establish uniform regula ..man confused an Oregonian witha.Flor- tions, and standards on matters Of that idan. ' kind, interfering "in no Way wnth states' •However, if these regional conferences rights. are held, there will be a much larger per CHAIRMAN TOLL:. It is\i ple^isiire to centage of attendance from the regions. In call, now. on the distinguished Speaker of, the second place, each person present will the Ohio House, who is. also se'.vins a? the know each other's problems and will be chairman of the House Corhmitcee on Inter able to get things actually done. state Cooperation. i\Ir. Bittiiiger.; He is ah CHAIRMAN TOLL: We. now come to the experienced statesman who has had a long Chairman Of the Senate Committee on and able "governmental career. Interstate Cooperation of Ohio. Mr. HON*. J. FREER BITTINGER (Ohio): I Lawrence. think the Supreme Court decision has SENATOR KEITH-LAWRENCE (Ohio): I thrown a bomb shell into the reasoning of have been enjoying the free and open ex a great many state officials. As Senator pression.. of opinion among the. various Lawrence told you, L just came from Biloxi representatives of the several. states. In where I 'attended a meeting of the gov Ohio, bothour house and senate have cre ernors. Their discussion was practically ated, by resolution, a standing Committee along this same line. However, in my own on interstate cooperation. We hope and right, and speaking personally, I do not exoect that the next step taken will be the agree with the regional idea. I might agree establishment qla commission on interstate with the regional idea if it affeftts certain cooperation, either at some special session kinds of legislation. I am opposed to, the of the Assembly, or during the next term. riegional idea for this reason r I am afraid 486 THE BOOK OF THE STATES if we break, up this asserribly into four oir session of 1933. I am sure we are all five regional groups, the first thing you anxious to make progress and that we will know we will become sectional. I think make progress as long as we have men with that is a grave danger. ^' us like Mr. Toll. • CHAIRMAN TOLL: .1 would like to call CHAIRMAN TOLL:. Various references on another presiding officer. . You have have been made as to thecomparative plans heard from Senator Maw, President of the of legislative committees, as distinguished^"- * Utah.Senate, from Speaker Watenpaugh, from, the commission plan" of the New • presiding officer of the House of Wyoming, Jersey type. I wonder. Senator Wolber, if • and from Mr. Bittinger, Speaker of the you care to say anything" in that connec House of Representatives of Ohio. I .am tion? now happy to call upon Mr. O'Gara, SENATOR WOLBER: I disassociate the idea Speaker of the House in Nebraska and of study commissions or temporary commis chairman of the Nebraska House Commit sions,, from our Commissions on Interstate tee on Interstate Cooperation. , ' /' Cooperation. In the state of New Jersey HON. W.H; O'GARA (Nebraska): there we have been active in recent yeiars in using . - is one feature of a vested law making body the compact clause, of the federal constitu , which T desire to callto your attention. tion'in problerns tha,t are geographically That is the Legislative Reference Bureau, allied with those of neighboring states. The value will'be fully realized under our Mention has been made today by represen new system which is being set up in. Ne tatives of those neighboring states as to the braska. I believe it was in 1913 that the boundary question, the water and water ? . Legislative Reference Bureau was created, diversion problem, pollution, and interstate, . . We. had no idea at the time that-we would transportation facilities. .'• > ever get away^rom thf; two house system.. New Jersey, by reason of its location with I am sure that every state which does not respect to New York,- Pennsylvania, and have a bureau of this type should, hasten to Delaware hasproblems like that arising all create one, to work in harmony with the the time. We would set up a special com central clearing house of the American mission, not legislators, but outstanding • Legislators' Association. We realize now men and women. They would build up . that without this Legislative Reference their material^ bring it to the legislature, Bureau we can get nowhere. One of our . a;nd thenthe trouble would begin, as yoii^ governors tried for two sessions to dispense practical . legislators know. They would . •; • with it and refused in his budget to recog have to sell the soundness of the plan to nize its existence; Still there were those of the members of the legislature. It would •"=^1 .us who realized its value and insisted on its take a long time. There is pending, in this continuance. We realize now, more than session of the New Jersey legislature, a pro ever, that if legislation is to be successful posed compact between the states of. New • in the state of Nebraska''\ye must depend Jersey, New York, and. Connecticut, with , ' upon this fact-finding body and also depend reference to the pollution of the waters of ~ , upon it to assist us in the framing of legisla- the New York Harbor .and of Long Island . '/v-tion. • Sound. ""^,'Wiih the unicameral legislature, , we I participated in the set-up of a non- rc'alize there is not going to be such a great legislative commission appointed by the number of bills introduced, and we are goyernor with the advice and consent of likely to develop, a continuing legislature. the senate. If it were not for the interest ;•. Just how we are going to work this out we of some of the membe.rs of the legislature s ,^ .. don't know, but we do know we can make in that particular project frqm the view . a success of the unicameral legislature. We point of New Jersey we woulid riot be able . are ^ot going to look upon it as many look to put, it over. Fortunately, I think this ' upon it,^-as a passing movement. year, with the help of my colleague, As- • ^ I would like to say that this effort in semblyman-Paul, ;who is participating in which we are all infierested would noL -have this conference, that we are going to be. made any progress whatsoever in the state able to do it. In Nesv Jersey, we felt that • of Nebraska had. it not "been for the ap the compact instrumentality was coming to pearance of Mr. Tbll during the legislative the front even before the opinion of the f. SUNDAY AFTERNOON SESSION 487 United States Supreme Court in the Schech- hope we will be able to explore the pos ter case. sibilities there and develop some technique A Permanent Agency which will be useful in other regions. .Another thing I hope you will be con \\''e felt in New Jersey that if we set up sidering in connection with the Council,of; a permanent agency, which we were able to State Governments is the relatiiohship of do under our constitution, we would avoid this Council to the national associations of the duplication of officials who might have state officials. In each state government to apply themselves to particular problems there are various functional offices with as they canie up, and we would have active which you might have contact; for e.x- members of the legislature representing the ample, the public welfare administration, senate and the general assembly. Then-, in educational activities, functions such as order to complete the picture we neededj those of the attorney general and the secre- the governor's appointments, from the ad tary of state. In each state there is this ministrative officers of the state. same division of function.^ Oh each level \Vhen the resolution came up for con we have integration between the state gov-; sideration in the legislature of New Jersey, ernments.. The Governors' Conference our friends not in the legislature a;hd not pulls the states together in one way. . The in the state service objected to it. I had to American Legislators' Association pulls spend, some little time saying that, this was them together in that field, the American to be an official agency, and that by creat Public Welfare .Association, and the Na ing.this permanent commission we were to tional .Association of Attorneys; General in provide for the merhbership of New Jersey those fields. There are more than fifty dif in the American Legislators' .Aissociation ferent functions of the state governments, ancl in the Council of State Governments. for each of which there is a national as These private citizens, the legislators, and sociation of state officials. Each of them is the Governor soon became as'enthusiastic working independently of the others! as.wewho proposed the measure. One function of the Council of; State CHAIRMAN TOLL: I believe this is an Governments, is to try to draw those organ appropriate time to make an announcentent izations of state officials closer together and of a plan not previously announced. We help to integrate their work. In that con-^ anticipate the establishment in the very nection we have not had a more pleasant, near future of a regional secretariat, partly more effective indication of cooperation as an experimental and a demonstration than that with General Averi 11's organiza -project, in th€ region of New Jersey, New tion; A request has been made by the York, , Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Dela- Executive Committee of the .Attorneys Gen vvare, and Maryland. That area is men eral Association that in connection with the . tioned partly because the need of organized secretariat of the Council of State Govern cooperation is more acute in that more ments therebe developed a clearing house metropolitan area and also because three of information useful to the attorneys gen of the states in that region are contributing eral and especially a clearance for opinions to this work; namely, New York, New rendered by the various at,torneys general, Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Therefore it as to subjects which are of concern in the / seems appropriate that the first undertaking various states. ; of this sort should be in that region. I The meeting recessed at five' P.M- % 60 •/ •: • \ •i •.; •••A 7 • . -• CHICAGO CONFERENCE' r r A group of planners, charting a course.for coiiperation among the states H' ning June 17^ 1935. iHE meeting was railed to order at • thing we must have 'a stff)ng centralized ten-thirty AJLhvthe Chairman, agency tying these variou§ units together. Henry W. Tell. \ ' There is no way in the world by which you CHAIRMAN TOLL: I suggest that we can arrange these regions as separate,' disr begin a discussion this morning ofthe pos tinct sections. Kentucky-would most likely sibilities and fuhctiohs of regional secre- • be grquped with the southern states and yet, tariats. That is rather a formidable name as the gentleman. from Indiana explained for something that would really be a loose carefully yesterday, Kentucky's best fights and informal type of agency, at least at the have been with Indiana. Indiana is still outset. I might say that my. personal angry about some things and Kentucky is thought in this connection is that, in the' angry about others. Kentucky is angry be beginning,, there would be one man within cause Indiana agreed not to tax" the Louis- an area whose time would be spent mainly ville-Jeffersonville Bridge and then tried to in going from capital to capital, keeping in slap a tax on the Indiana terminal of that touch with legislators and administrative bridge, in perfectly bad faith. officials, aiding where possible, and having- Why should we have an extra govern some central point of operation in the mental body doing this particular job which regiori. is perhaps one of the most important jobs ;.M]R.. RoBiNEAU (Florida): Will you • that has come before the nation, and cer tell me how you propose to divide or sub tainly one ofithe most difficult jobs? Why divide the nation into regional areas? should not our main objective be to go to * CHAIRMAN TOLL: .That is a difticult Congress and the states and say, "Form a subject. The best, evidence of the difficulty .,, perfectly new branch of the government. is in the fact that the federal government Call it the liaison department, or what you is functioning in areas which have been.set will.to work out this, proposition." apart for specific purposes in more than a hundred different ways. There are over one Freedom of Action • hundred different maps in .Washington on The answer is that you would lose, by the basis of which various federal agencies putting under the government these partic are functioning. It is my opinion that in ular activities. Freedom of action is very actual operation we . wall not need to be necessary in attempting, to solve shifting definitely committed to clean cut areas. . problems. To my. mind, that is why we; For instance, the regional secretary for the can do more as a. semi-governmental body, New York area would have to work with not tied down by statutes or constitutions, the Connecticut people, because a substan performing in a way which could not be tial part of the metropolitan area is in Con-. done If we were a definite arm of the gov necticut. On the other hand, if we had a ernment, regional secretary for the New England I think there are certain precise activities states in Boston he would certainly work that our regional secretary could start to .with the Connecticut government because do. ThoSiS^of you who are lucky enough that is part of New England, There would to have a legislative reference bureau, be thaf overlapping. . perhaps do not realize what a devil of MR. BELKNAP (Kentucky): I do not a fix we are in, in the states haying no leg think .we are going to disrupt the country by islative reference bureau, and those which sectionalism in forming these regional sec have good legislative reference bureaus; retariats, because in order to achieve any- (don't realize how much the ones that have 489V- ' • ' ••"•• •• .'• •••• • •"- • ••.• •• .• #"• 490 THE BOOK OF THE STATES poor legislative;reference bureaus ar<»-,e • miss- the same sort can be raised in the same . ing. I have been very miich impressed in territory., • one ..or two states where I have seen the Give and Take legislative reference bureau working to its- best advantage \vith the wonderful power Our interests in one;section of Florida, for good,, not tremendous control power but as compared to another section, present to suggestive power that the legislative refer the legislature problems that we have very ence bureau has. We have several in this fortunately never differed about. There has nation and where they are continually 'tin been a spirit of give and take, a recognition the job their influence for good is almost on our part of the great value of the citrus imm-easurable. ". « industry and the wonderful people who have It seems to me a regional secretary could developed it in southern Florida. There start with some fairly definite things we has been a similar attitude on the part of already knbw<7bout andbne would be bring the people of south Florida with reference ing the legislative reference bureaus to the to the western section of the state. When ... attention of the states which do not have ever there has arisen the necessity of mak .them. He should'make an effort to get ing an appropriation out of the state treas-' them established and in those states where .ury to protect the citrus industry from .the they do not operate at top efficiency, he ravages of insect pests or a disease peculiar should strive tp raise their standards. to horticultural gro\^i:hJ the_people~'in west CHAIRMAN TOLL : I think we might hear Florida or in north Florida, who happen to /( .-now frQrh" the'senator from Florida regard- represent the balance of the legislative ' ing- cooperation that ' might be effected power, have never hesitated to make the , within just onestate., We might have prob appropriation. The. original pest that r^l- lems arising that do not affect two or more most destroyed the citrus industry in Florida • states but lie wholly wi^in one state. We was the canker. While it was of no direct \\ill ;follow his discussion with problems benefit to us whatsoever, we unhesitatingly that might arise in various states, not. ad voted for an appropriation to enadicatethat joining each other'but having similar prob _pest, '-••'." lems, to be considered as regional difficul- Some of you jirobably knovy from sad -ties.'. ,^ '; experience that just a few years ago we had . SENATOR D, STUART GILLIS (Florida): another pest that invaded that great in -Those- of you who did me the honor of dustry, the Mediterranean fruit fly, We listeninf^; yesterday to what I had to say unhesitatingly vriterl hundreds of thousands about the state of Florida will remember •of dollars to the agl-idulturai department for that in oiie great siectiori of the state the eradicatinc: that pest. original settlement was in a district that is On the other hand, the southern part of fitted for the production of staple farm . the state has come to our rescue by ap- ^products. The timber Was removed through propriatinc; large ^ums of money, to pro the saw mill operation and. the naval stores ; tect the live stock iijdustry from the ravages .oWration,with no provision for ref6re.sta- of the Texas feverftick and thedestructive tion. \ A vast part of the state of Florida screwWorm. Those are problems that we' is iri that condition. It is a strictly agri- have inost fortung,tely been able to settle cultiVal section, fitted for the growing of by a spirit of give and take, compromise; staple, products. ; ; and kindly feeling among people who do In Vhe peninsular part of,the state of represent diverse interests. • Florida-it is entirely different. There the We have a very fortunate population. •products^are, , almost exclusively, citriis They work in the. spirit of cooperation and fruits, and other horticultural enterprises. I commend my home people to the consid -Around Lake Okeechobee, that wonderfully eration of this body. fertile section, the growing of green vege CHATRMAN TOLL : Referring back to the tables is carried on. There is not a rrionth matter of regional secretariats for awhile, of the year anywhere in Florida, even in we are anxious to get just as definite recom my sectionj where the soil cannoit be culti mendations as we can. vated and some crops grown, and in the I trust that the New York and New Jer southern part of the state several crops of sey members will pardon.me for some rep- MONDAY MORNING SESSION 491 etition on the point .1 am going: to make. secretaria;! functions should be supported, When i had lunch with them yesterdayT in tiriie, by the states in the areas. said it seemed to me there would be oc Of course there would be some cost. You casions when a regional secretary could cannot operate government and you cannot render a type of service that persons con- operate the work of coordination of govern "; • nected vyith any governmental administra ment without spending money, but it would tion in the arpa, could not provide. Sup probably cost only about ten thousand dol pose there are tw^o states where there is lars a .year to operate a secretariat of that a controversial situation. It might be there sort. '• is also a. difference in the political com- The fact is that if you are going to co . plexion of the two administrations, jealousy ordinate, if you are going to harmonize betw;eeri governors, or something of that ; forty-eight state governments spread over sort. An outside organization, 'when it an area of three' million square miles, with has established itself in everyone's mind 120,000,000 -people,.and ninety-six legis as a strictly impartial, non-partisan, disin lative bodies ma.de up of 7500 individuals terested agency; simply trying to furnish whoiiave to work together with tens of thou the facilities for cooperation, may come sands of administrative officials. yOu can- V in and help straighten out such situa .npt do so without people devoting their tions. The secretary could call in leg- attention to that problem, and exclusively - r isiative and administrative'officials. He to that problem, and without all sorts of could provide the secretarial services, ^er- people getting on all sorts of railroad trains * forrn the mechanics of such a conference and and airplanes-going back and forth around then, afterward, he could provide for re thie country. It is an e:^erisive govern porting, sending out mimeographed reports mental function that we cannot neglect, and • to such conferees, arranging for later meet we have tO; pay for it. ^ ings, and other such matters. '^ . SENATOR Wi;iss: I said a moment ago SENATOR JACOB WEISS (Indiana): I there was no doubt as to the value of these don't think there are any here who doubt secretariats. . W^e can all see the possibilities the virtue or value of such secretariats .if of,such an arrangement. It occurs to me, ' and when set up. But I- am wondering how . in rather a fleeting idea, that you might be such secretariats would be supported, for . able to interest the states in designating one one thing; also as to whether^or not. the individual to act in this capacity and to be. ; sevpral commissions on interstate coopera- on the payrol^of. the state. : tion should not be first set up in advance CHAIH,MAN.!TOLL; That would be a more , of- the secretariat, or whether the secre expensive arrangement. You would be erii- tariat should be "set up before the commis-- . ploying in the states, jointly, if there were , s . sions? ' : . "' • six.states in a region, six people, where I- CHAIRMAN TOLL: I think, in general, the thought in terms of. employirig only two commissions should be set up first and the people.- Then there- is also thi.s point: the secretariat should.follow, so there would be secretary I have in mind would spend this some one for the regional secretary to work week in Trenton, the next in Harrisburg, • with.' In the area comprising New York, the next in Baltimore, and so forth. He New jersey, and Pennsylvania they have, is in pei^sonal touch with all of these people. in effect, such commissions. Of course, those SEN.AT0R LEAP : The question in my riiind • are the three states in the union where the is whether the proper approach would not problepis or the need'for harmonizing the be to'have secretaries trainp.d along certain : policies of the'states is most acute. New; lines. If there were a dispute between York 'has this joint committee which is New York, Peiinsylvania, and New Jersey , practically a commission and which haS in. the matter of taxation, would we not be ^ an appropriation and is ready to start func better off to call ori the national organiza tioning as soon-as the members are .defi tion for a rnan who had great experience in nitely agreed upon by tK'e presiding officers .the matter of taxation? If it were a mat . of the legislature. New Jersey and Pennsyl- ter of: milk regulation, would it not be bet -' vania now have, their commissions estab- ter to be able, to call on a local man? If , lished, so if such commissions are worth it comes to other niatters, it occurs to having at all, the theOry wbulcii be that me tijat we perhaps would be; better off if 492 THE BOOK OF THE STATES we could recognize that person more: or ency to say, "This is our region. We are less as en expert in that particular line. cooperating, we have our regional secre ]\IR. PKOBINEAU (Florida): In your con- tary and we are on our own." siucr^iiion of this question, have you come • GENERAL AVERILL: I would like to tell to a skeleton form for your secretariat? you of an experience we had along this, What is the personnel to be, how consti line at our regional meeting in connection tuted, how supported, and to whom re with the Association of Attorneys General. sponsible? The e.xpression of opinion of every one CHAIRMAN. TOLL": T know only how my there was that they did not dare do any own mind works on that. My thought has thing as a region. The attorney general been this: in theory, under the ideal set of Maine and the attorney general of Mary up, each of the forty-eight states has its land found they had a great deal in com commission on interstate cooperation. That mon, socially and intellectually. Both went is under the direction of the chairman of back home feeling that they knew each those various commissions and the .leg other. The ideas that came out at the meet islative committees, which is this body here. ing were expressed in the form of resolu The Council of; State Governments func tions to be presented at the meeting of our , tions as a nation-wide unifying organiza National .Association: tion with the purpose, not of regional con \\'hen we talk about a regional secretariat flicts, but of regional as well as state co we rather frighten the people of the dif operation.; The Gouncil would be supported ferent states. : I think it is a little early by the various state governments. "to attempt to define what the possibilities "On that pointy I Im going to disagree for. are for that position, or what their ultimate just a minute as to whether or not that can . functions will be. V I think at the present be done. When the American Legislators' moment, if T could call upon Mr. Gallagher, Association was in its earliest stages, every or some other representative of this As now and then someone would, say, "The sociation who was located in New York, to states can not appropriate money to the. run up to Connecticut and meet the com Legislators' Association.'' Maybe they can mission on the pollution of the. Connecti not, but New York State is doing it, also cut River—I think he -would accomplish • Pennsylvania, Kentucky, South Carolina, more than all the literature you could send California, Nebraska, New Jersey and other . out from here, and if any of them wanted- states. '. - information he could tell them where they The legislatures are coordinating every could get it. thing except their owm activities. They are MR, RAPP (Arizona): It seems to me supporting national associations of insur that it would be unwise to set up any defi ance commissioners, labor commissioners, nite regiohs. T think perhaps it would " commissioners on uniform state laws,; gov be betteir to have four or five offices around ernors' conferences, and so forth. They the count^ry to act as centers for coordi are contributing to the support of secre nating the work . of the national head tariats and of joint services. Certainly the quarters. state government may cooperate with other SENATOR M.^W (Utah): It is^my Opinion state governments. You can enter into com that this organization is not going to do very pacts with other, governrnents. The states much at the present time, at least, in of New York and New Jersey can set up settling controversies between the states. a port authority and both can contribute, T don't believe, for example, that Arizona through some device or other, tn its. sup- and California would ever let any one from .port. ,. the outside decide thVmatter of the Colo- . Tf you are going to havea smoothly'func rado River controversy. Each state is go tioning agency it. is necessary to have all ing to have its delegates there and they • these regional secretaries, operating under are going to fight i.t out, If they cannot the direction of the central administrative decide between themselves, they are going . office of the organization. Otherwise ypu . to take it to court. would have disintegrated, separated.regions From what I have heard of Indiana and. -and there would be a greater risk of what . Kentucky they will never get together un Mr. Bittinger is concerned about, a tend less their own representatives are present, MONDAY MORNING SESSION . 493 Every state thinks its own citizens should appreciate the situation of the gentleman decide matters affecting their state's inr from Utah, but we in the ea,st, New York, terest. It is very questiona;ble, in my opin Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Maryland, and ion, whether the states are in the proper Delaware are familiar with this office. We frame of mind at present to let outside have our organisation already set up. We forces decide their own controversies. How have met, have done our committee work,- ever, they will very much favor an. outside and we are functioning. agency which will furnish them reliable in Why not, as q,n experiment, set up the formation on a subject and then, having secretariat in New Yorkj where they now received that information, they can better have an office available with, two or three sit down and talk it out among themselves. other affiliated organizations of the same The second thought which h"a§ occurred, group. We learn, by trial and error. Let to-me is this: if the depression has taught us,.try it out• there and see what happens. us anything, it has taught us that businesses If it is not what we think it should.be, let and institutions that expand too fast suf us have a recall and start over again. fer mOstv As fine an organization as this We in New Jersey are rea:dy for im is, it is not known yet. In my state, few mediate help. We have our problems. We legislators understand it. There is a psy know what they "are. We have pur com chological moment when the organization, mittees formed and we are working." We should reach out to all groups and that is are sirnply groping around for somebody to when the groups want it. The groups do come in and build up contacts for us in not want it before they know wh^t it is these' other states. : • all about. iViR. RoBiNEAU. (Florida): As I have . I think, inasmuch as the organization is been listening I to the discussion I see the in its infancy, great care should be taken great need for some contact medium be ^ in the matter of expansion. Although! am tween the states of the union, especially a firm believer in the idea that perhaps contiguous states, which will siipplement in the next ten years this district organi and solve more readily problems that really, zation pla;n:Avill be set up, I don't believe under our constitution, should have rested it Should be set up in any district until with the national Congtess, Because of the district seeks it. T don't believe the the peculiar vagaries that Congress has in Rocky Mountain district is reaidy for it yet dulged in, in the past fifty years, largely because most of the people there. don't through political instinct, the establishment know about it. of a contact medium, between the states is SPE.4KER BiTTiNGER (Ohio): I am sure of prirne importance in my judgment. Cer-' if this group would continue for.years to tainly there should be a clearing house of be headed by ]\Tr. Toll,- or a man like Mr. economic-sociological thought arid ideas, so Toll, that regions would not develop into that you haive the necessary cooperation . what I .fear they might develop into.' that should come to a people who are as I believe this is one of the greatest things decentralized as we are, under our form that has ever been established to aid the of government, in the forty-eight sovereign various states.] I think Senator Leap said ties. •••_.;-, -••;• . ; • - • the right thing at-ihe right time. I would While we have these forty-eight sover- go further than Senator Leap has gone. I • eignties, nevertheless we have a people genu would not even have a local person in these inely uniforrn in mentalityarid social habits, • areas,' as. he suggested. You could better, in point of . political-governmental view. send to the central office and.get a man to- Whatever difficulties we have, in- my judg- corne to the state. I think the c6mmunica- nient, are imposed upon us because of the. ti^ori should be; af all tirhes, with the head urge; for seltpreservation and because our office and these individuals §ent out froni own immediate necessities are of first im-. the head office—experts in their line—^and portance. . '' . people familiar with whatever subject is AVhile I think the regional secretariat underdisciission at the time. idea, has a sound basis of logic, I am won MR. PAUL (New Jersey): 1 am consid dering if it is not going to shock the pride, erably, interested in this matter. ^I have •arid dignity, and self assurance of authority learned much in the last three days. I of the various, executives in our states who 494 THE BOOK OF THE STATERS 6 probably would feel "that the compact-: ward results thereafter rhight never have ^Tiaking power should reside and repose in occurred if that personal relationship could \ them, and that the negotiations, delibera have been established by some agency such tions, and final conclusion of agreements as this. I am perfectly willing to express my should emanate from and be directed by the self as being wholly enthused by the idea chief executive of the state,' to be approved, and am hopeful that our project wiir be of course,, by the legislative body, and planned in such manner as not to frustrate • services to be rendered by its various ad itself by improper planning. . ministrative sub-agencies. CHAIRMAN TOLL: It strikes a^"sympa . We have such a variety of things,' as thetic cord with me when the suggestion is the matter unfolds itself in my imagination, . made that an organization of this kind must • that I see a new thought in government, a progress in a conservative, orderly, careful new adjunct.in our federal system. Senator way. We set up the facilities for coopera Weiss mentioned, the possibilities in law. tion and then, to the extent the people There is a possibility of interstate diplo utilize, them, good"; to the e.xtent they don't • matic law bsing created,, a definitely hew •utilize them, they areinot.ready. scope of jurisprudence coming into the pic That is my feeling about regional secre ture, as to how state controversies can be , tariats to a considerable extent,.that if we settled, if not by compulsion, at least by. have a field man in a certain area we are .the compulsion of logic and reason"and not foisting his services upon ariybody.AVe equity. . : are not insisting that anybody utilize his This organization has an^ outstanding services; but if somebody in one state finds- utility in information gathering, and cer it convenient to say to.hirri, "When you go tainly it may be an ^agency' that can be to this other state capital, won't you-talk employed for the establishment of prelimi- - to so and so, giving-him this message for.; nary contacts between controversial groups. me," then, he can be. utilized. Tf it is -/' it may be, if not an arbitrator, at least a properly done, I don't see that there is any friend of the contending parties, to bring question of foisting anything upon anybody. them together. Those are things that ap-. There is no compulsion, we propose only to peal to my logic and direct me ir\ a vision give them the means, leaving its utilization ; of the fu.ture utilitarian purposes. I hope to them. , \ye may make no mistakes but keep, it . ^.^The suggestion is made that we wait until going in a methodical manner. those services are demanded from a region. I am thoroughly convinced that you have I think, within reason, that is a legitimate here a project that is.sound, that is serv suggestion, and yet you ddii't get demands iceable, whose greatest weakness is prob from regions. In connection with the states ably its infancy. So I am rather inclined of Utah, Colorado^ .Wyoming, Nebraska,; to join in the suggestion of Senator Leap, New Mexico-—the • area from which General Averiil, and Speaker Bittinger, that Senator IMaw and I come;—those state gov we had better maintain the central office as ernments don't all statid up together and , 'a place for information, as ah information say, "Please give us a regional secretariat;'". gathering agency with such pisrsohnel as It doesn't happen that way. But when you may be arranged for within the central, find an area wher^ there are these agencies office for specialization in areas or regions, on interstate cooperation established., as . -. and specialization in classified problems as they -are in New York, New. Jersey, and they might appear. We can then see Pennsylvania, then there is ia demand for whether, out of these specialists that you . facilities for contact between them.. ;^ may develop in your home office, the plan; I referred this morning to the meeting •for an actual regional secretariat will not which is being arranged by the .\mericah • follow; Public Welfare .Association. I Would like Those things come into the picture as I to ask your opinion as to whether it would. •sit here thinking; It is very possible that be a suitable arrangenient for the Council you may have interstate relationship com to Jiave a committee which would meet with missions or liaisons between the north and the regional directors at that time. the south. The conditions that brought SPEAKER BiTfrNCER: In order:.to get : about the Dred Scott decision and the unto the matter before this body, I move that a MONDAY MORNING SESSION .495 committee of five be selected to attend that SPEAKER BITTINGER: With the consent meeting. of the second, I shall change the motion to T/ie motion was seconded by Mr. read that a committee of seven be ap Rapp. : '"X^ pointed to attend, the meeting of the Wel- CHAIRMAN TOLL: Mr, Bittinger, it oc- ' fare Group, curred to me that in case we desired to have. The chairman put the motion, which u <-3P» 5. •r^- :%• t«4 .,p,Knr" •' >CS> —^' .;,o->- r' V >;0» .0 • pjk •• • .>. ^:/-,V •/.• HE meet'ing^wasicalled to order at perhaps, in the field of some institutional two-thirty J^.M. by the Chairman, services, and proceed with the already de-! T Benry. W.T0II veloping program in the ta.x field. These are CHAIRMAN TOI[L: I shall first call on fields in which there is not a foundation of Dr. Gulick for a/few remarks. Goritroversy, nor a foundation of disagree I DR. LUTHER GULICK (New York): I was ment nor the arrayed opposition of en- very-much impressed with some of the im- t renched groups. Consequently, they are. plications of the statement made by our subjects in which some success can be friend Ifrom Florida on the. fundamental achieved. aspect of->g0yefnmental evolution with it was suggested by the senator from whkh we are'confronted at this conference. New Jersey that what we need is an op I suspect tjiere was more behind the con portunity for the States to call in experts cept of the{ United States Senate than'ever from headquarters. T wish to warn you developed in the initial drive for the federal against the expert in that relationship. constitution, TThe Senate was constituted What we need in the individual regional . of senators selected by the. states and there areas is a close, friendly relationship which could have developed from that institution Svill be'cultivated not by an expert but by a an agency of mutual coordination and co man of general knowledge and general operation between the federal government understanding of the whole situation. andl the stat,es as organized legal entities, .\ man who will assist in bringing in.ex But that disappeared in a period when we perts when a problem arises which demands did not realizfe as clearly "as we do now the expert assistance. . necessity for joint planning and joint ad CHAIRM.AIS' TOLL: This is not a' last ministration of activities s&«that we have fight for state rights, but I think everybody lost that \)ery intimate connection which in the country is interested in the mainte was built into the federal constitution by nance of local self government as far as that the fathers when they constructed the fed- is compatible with good government. This eral government; is perhaps a last ^effort to conduct, ade We are "engaged ifi re-thinking the. prob quately, under our present allocation of gov lem of the interrelation of governmental ad- ernmental functions, local' control and the, jiiinistration and planning agencies/ In tlje . administration of as many functions • as discussion \ye have had* the number of possible locally. But as far as our attitude topics mentioned is really very astounding. toward the federal administration is con I have jotted them down, as each of my cerned, it is my belief that the function of colleagues mentioned them, as follows: the. Council is one of cooperation and har bridges, trucks, pests, water pollution, cor monization. What we are trying to do is to poration taxation, marriage laws, agricul get states, harmoniousiy cooperating with ture", cotton, milk, roads, hours of labor. each other and then the states harmoniously wages, trade practices, child .labor, timber, cooperating with the federal government. health, crime, prisons, dust and floods, irri- We have a most pleasant relationship with .nation, liquor, relief, poor and public.wel- many influential members of the adminis-. fare, economic security, game, oil, minerals, tration in Washington. • Reds, and Huey Long. ._'• ; SKNATOR QNEAL "(Texas): As I said, It seems to me that we would do well to I came wth.a question mark in my mind sele'ct certain of these tdpics^those in the as to what! we were going to do. .1. agree field of crime, in the. field of welfare, with you this is not a fight with the ad- •. ••"••• ;•,'•' ••••' •• ••. A% .t. >• N- ,4: MONDA Y AFTERNOON SESSION 497 ministration or with the federal govern of the attorneys general know of that de ment.' The Supreme Court of the United cision, although they may have to face ;the , States has demonstrated positively there is same situation? no fightbetwee n the federal government and I have made this suggestion to.Mr. Toll the states. The Supreme Court stands as and I am going to present it at the meeting a bulwark so that there is not going to be of our National ^Association, that through any fight:. ; ,'^ • ^ the Council of State Governments there be The question now is up to the states,— -afforded an opportunity whereby the at knowing positively what their authority is torneys general can send their opinions to a and what the federal government caii do. clearing hquse in the same building and at. The question is; what are the states going the.same place where their own adminis-. • to do about the matters, that the federal trative office can send for information, government cannot now handley-tliat«the where their own legislators can send for in states must handle. . formation, and- find out something about GENERAL AvERiLL (Connecticut): It.is- what is going on in the legal departments, of hot a question of states against the union, the various states. . but it is a question of maintaining the Insofar as I am concerned, I am not in American form of government. It is true terested in whether the attorney general of that the Supreme Court: has very forcibly Massachusetts said "yes" or ''no" to any brought to the mind of every one, whether question. What I am interested in is how they look at government from the point of he arrived at that cpnclusioh, because my, view of the union, or whether they look at experience has been that there is no man who it from the point of the state, that there are is big enough to think of a.11 phases: of any limitations as to the delegated powers of the one problem which is submitted to him. If U"nited States. We know there are limita- he can get the thoughts of others he may^ . tions upon the reserved powers of states. find that somebody else has had some We know that, once those powers are dele pwwers of recognition which he overlooked gated to the IJnited States, the federal gov for the moment. It will help him tremien-- ernment is supreme. .We know that those douslyain coming to a really hbnest con powers reserved to the states, remain there. clusion. •. • ^ . I The.law officer of every state in the union is besoiight.by every department of govern CH.AIRMANTOLL: If this proposal meets ment for an opinion as to how he is going to with favor at the. annual meeting of at administer the acts which your legislatures torney^ general in :Los Angeles, aside from have, passed. The Attorney General in such benefit as it may be to attorneys gen Wyoming kno\ys nothing about it. Neither eral it would be of great benefit to legisla does the Attorney General of Texas know tors. , anything about it. Why is that so? If yoti •j^ was hi the office of the Secretary of . fo.und that because of a- structural defect ' Sftate of. Colorado a few weeks ago. The • in: your law you couldn't operate it, wouldn't mart in charge of the office had occasion to you be glad to find out if some other sta.tes pick up. a little form which* had the signa in the union.had solved that particular ture, of the Governor of Connecticut, the difficulty? If you were administering the signature of the Secretary of State of law and you were in difficulty, would you Connecticut, ; and the deputy seeretary not like to know whether the law depart- and- the secretary to the--Governor. I . ment of some other; state h^d found a asked what, it was. He said, "In-our method.whereby it could be adminis^red office we have all sorts of documents coming successfully? through and we have to have sbme.way of A question came up a short time ago as checking their -authenticity, so we must to converting a building and loan associa-. have^the signatures of those officers from lion of a^tate into a federal horhe loan: each state." I asked whether he got that savings bank without a statute. The at-, everj^ year and he said all Secretaries Of torneys general ruled differently in differ State had to have the same material, each ent parts of the country. In Wisconsin, one sighed individually. I said, "Here are. they: started a suit and the court in that forty-eight Secretaries of State, each send-. case decided they could not. How many ing' out forty-seven forms. That means' 498 THE BOOK OF THE STATES something like 2,256 such forms circulated SENATOR: GRADY : (North Carolina): *•'., . every year." . • : ; There are two things that certainly vitally He said that was true and'that each form affect all of the states—legislation affecting ; had to be sent around to the offices and they industry and labor and a social security had to get four autpgraphs on it. That program. . If we,-as states, do not take meant 9,024 of those autographs being se cognizance of these two major problems, cured every year. ; T asked whether he then, the national government -must take thought, the Secretaries of State might be cognizance of them. If we are to prevent interested in having a single office send out some constitutional. amendment or some one copy of that form to each of the states, further federal legislation that vitally affects get photostatic copies made and send them states' rights, then we must act and act at around—to—the forty-eight Secretaries of a very early date. -^ State. , I.t \ypjjld save 9,000 autographs. He I hope, before we adjourn, we will set up said they certainly would, that in getting definite committees with definite programs these forms together the, signing was the . and let them go to work immediately in srnallest part, that they had to send out order that'the federal government may know forty-seven forms to get back twenty-seven the sovereign states are not asleep at the : and send but another twenty forms and get switchi" and that we are awake to our i^e- ^ baclc nine. It took months of repetition sponsibility in connection.with these prob . and follow-up to secure all the autographs. lems and have the capacity and ability to .. meet them. • • Plans jor Committees SEN.ATOR T. V. SMITH (Illinois): I think . I, want to go back to the committee I can get less excited than anybody X know set-up. I would like to haye a list of com of—although my b\vn"polit:cal inheritance mittees suggested, so that wc might consoli is .southern, where, states' rights is a^shib- •= date, eliminate, and cut it down to perhaps bbleth—about the location of sovereignty five standing committees of this Council. in. this enterprise of ours. I am afraid it^ Planning is an important subjfcct for a is the disillusionment Of perhaps knowing- committee of the Council. During\Re 1935 top much about it. ? session Dr. Merriam of the National- Re Sovereignty is a philosophical matter. It sources Board said that there were thirty is not an economic matter. The idea of states which. passed statutes officially esr reviving these old issues and trying to ., tablishing state planning boards. It seems V formulate specific policies about them is as to me that there is an irhportant opportunity irrelevant to our enterprise as anything ' for this Council. It also occurs to,me that could conceivably be. .^ sovereignty actual perhaps our best fields of experimentation rather than 'verbal is not going to follow are those Which are the least controversial. on the curve of our talk here or elsewhere. Two fields occur to. me as meeting that Organizations that find themselves able to qualification to some extent. One is the do a given job are going to do it, and those Jmatter of crime prevention.: No member of- that think- they have the right to do it but the citizenry is openly advocating anything are not doing it, and.are not setting-about 'in opposition to crime prevention. That to doit, are not going to do it. might take in the handling of the proba- Our committees ought to. be selected to . tioner and. perhaps the joint conduct by further the better doing of a. job that is various states of correctional institutions. now not being very well done. I think, we At the outset these committees would could find such committees. I am not cer- . have to function probably as little more than tain .what they are, but if we select our skeleton committees but they miuld be in committees upon the basis of safeguarding: correspondence with each other.; Their ; the rights of states or safeguarding any . work would probably hinge quite largely oh rights of that traditional sort, I for one the., extent to which the chairman was ac would have very much less expectatjon of tive. They might be working more by way this enterprise than I do have. of getting their. thinking somewhat inte As I see it, we are engaged upon seeking grated than byway of trying to get actual to correct that everlasting disease Thomas results. Jefferson has so well described in a not too MONDArVAFTERNOOIV SESSION 499 frequently quoted passage of the Declarar Carolina talks about, staties' rights. I du tion of. Independence, when he said, ''All not care about states' rights as states' rights. experience has shown that mankind is more ,But it is different when they start to pass, disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable for example, chiid labor amendments. 1 than to right themselves by abolishing the am in syrhpathy with everything in/the forms to,, which they are accustomed." child labor^mendment, but whim I. realize What I want to say finally, going back that ninety per cent of thC: pressure on to the specific point—let us seek to form Congress is going to be from the industrial commli.tees which are, in the judgment of east and that they are going to forget all those colleagues of mine here much better- about the problems, of the south with its informed specifically than I im on the basis negro children, New IMexico with its Mexi- of dealing with living functions that are cafrchildren, or California with; its Japanese not now .well performed, and select upon children, then ;I am wildly enthusiastic that basis rather than the basis of states' about states,'rights. rights or any other-traditional verbal rights. MR. ANGELL (Oregon): With reference CHAIRMAN--^"OLL: Senator Smith,, be to the committees, what are they going to cause I have been thinking a great deal of do? Are they going to be fact-finding com this question of stjftes' rights, ,T am going . mittees or are they going to propose legis- to take the liberty of saying I don't believe latioin? ; ' , ' .. you.are so far apart from the people who ;I beheve .we should get away from this talk about states' rights as you think you discussion as to whether ihese'are problems are. I want to see; if jLhere is not a pos- . for the national or local government and - sibilitybf translating some of this discussion:; determine what we can do as an organize* of states', rights, in which we are using tion to facilitate more friendliness, greater familiar terms, into your thinking. We get mutual cooperation. We will then be bet into the use of familiar terms. For ex ter able to accomplish the thingwe want ample, we are all talking about economic to do, to get good legislation for our local security. We talk about departments of needs. What is the function of these com •public welfare., AVe get our thoughts neces mittees? ' " : sarily crystallized and use particular phrases CHAIRMAN TOLL: AS T see it, we rhighl which may be: more or less accurate, aiid be concerned with the.whole list of subf som,etimes are less accurate. :\"' jects that Mr, Gulick.;read before he left. . AV'^'all know that there are state func There are a hundred topics of interstate tions under ihg existing order and there concern. Right at the present-moment we are certain functions which many of us are not prepared to go very fast this month w'ould like to see administered locally.- or this vyeek on any of these subjects.; AVe What you mights call the home administra-; should get some of these groups'set,up, as : tion of state functions is a vital matter to ; skeleton committees, so that as rapidly as ; the maintenance of some of our'social cus-, possible we can try to breath'e life into' \ toms, which we treasure as a matter of ' them. ' ' ;: '• •; \« great importance, .^s !• said at the first Last week, in another connection, 1 had; session, I am trying to., substitute other occasion to go through the opinion of the phrases in lieu of states' rights, which sub Supreme Court and mark four little pas- stituted phrases, I think, mean the same Siiges, each vefy brief, as to the; powers to me that the old phrase means to other which the states must exercise. people. MR. BELKNAP: There are. certain ones The Suprdne Court among us who feel very keenly that 130,- The cotnmerce power: ^'li is not the prov 000,000,people spread over an appreciable ince'of the court to consider the .gsfy^imic' percentage of the globe, is too big ia unit for advantages or disadvantages of (such) a efficient administration or even legislation. centralized system. . It is sufficient to say . Therefore, I think we want to be careful that the federal constitution does not pro not to let nomenclature stand in the way of vide for it. Our growth and development our clear thinking as to why we are doing have called for wide use of the commerce certain things; The^-gentleman from North power of the federal governnfient in its .'<^: 500 THE BOOK OF THE STATES control over the.expanded activities of in ("(f the state over -its domestic concerns terstate commerce and in protecting that"" would exist only by sufferance of the federal, commerce from burdens, i.nterferences and government. Indeed on such a theory even conspiracies to restrain and monopolize it. thei development of the state'? commercial ^'But the authority of the federal govern- facilities would be subject to federal con ntent may not be pushed to such,an ex trol." • • treme "as'to destroy the distinction, which .In order to bring the matter in hand to the commerce clause itself establishes, be a definite focus. Senator Grady do you' tween commerce 'among,the several states'' rha,ke a definite motion that there be ap-/ and the internal concerns of a state. . .".'' pointed a committee on-economic security and labor and industry? SENATOR'GRADY: 'I^SO move.; {Seconded \Vagez'and hours: "If the federal govern byi Mr. Bittinger.) ment may determine 'the wages and hours .CHAIRMAN TOLL: If I may,state this of empliayees in the internal commerce of a motion more fully we will see whether, it state, because of their relation to cost and is satisfactory. It has been inoved that the prices and their indirect effect upon inter Council proceed to establish a Committee state commerce, it would seem tha%-a similar on Economic Security, that arrangements \ control might be exerted over other ele be made for this committee to attend the- ', ments of cost also affecting prices.^. . ." • meeting of the State ReHef Directors, if ",41Ll^^ processes of production and dis- possible. Secondly, that the Council shall tributmri' that enter into cost could likewise establish a Committee on Labor and Indus be controlled. If the cost of doing an try and that consideration be given to the intrastate business is in itself the permitted suggestion th^^t this committee attend the • object of federal control, thejgxtent of the Spring Lake. Conference. Is there any regulation of cost would be a question of further discussion? If not, all in favor sav discretion and not of power." ' ''Aye"; contrary, "No." The motion carried. ' : Indirect ejects: "The distinction. between There are. two committees upon which i^ direct and indirect effects has been clearly I would like"especially- to-have.your.-jiidg-j. recognized in the application of the Anti- ment. One is a committee which might Tru'st Aci. Where, a I combination oi: con • be called a Committee on Crime Prevention. spiracy is formed,'with the intent to re The other might'roughly be called a Com- strain intei-state commerce or to monopolize :mittee on State Planning Boards. I don't any part of it, the violation of the statute think either one of those terms is quite is clear. \right, especially the. one as to crime: pre vention. I - "ButSvhere that intent is absent and the objectives are limited tj Intrastate ac MR. BELKNAP: I move aCommittee oh tivities the fact that there may be an indirect Crime Prevention be established, ! effect upon interstate commerce does not The motion .was seconded by Senator subject the parties.to the federal statute, Grady and carried. - > - notwithstanding its broad provisions.'' CHAIRMAN TOLL: We come now to committee, whatever the name may be, which would try to help in the coordinJE The commerce clause: "But where the tion of the state planning boards—part effect of intrastate transact.ions upon in whose function would be to work with t| terstate commerce is merely indirect, such National Resources Board, a very clos ti-.ansactiohs remain within the domain of inter-relationship. ,.. st,ate power. MR. ROBINEAU: You already have a , • I ylf the ^commerce clause Were construed Planning Board of the Council.' tp reach all enterprises and transactions CHAIRMAN TOLL.: That is really an e.xe- . whicn\ could be said to ha\^e an indirect Gutive committee. I think that would not , effect upon intersta,te commerce^ the federal fall within the functions of a planning authoritV would embrace practically all the board committee. activities\f the people and the authority ANGELL:- I move that a committee MONDA Y AFTmNOO.} miON 501 be created to be known as'the State Plan i^rween the\administrations of the*two ning Boards Committee. states, withoutNlegislative sanction. The motion was seconded by Mr. Rapp There is the nqatter of bridges between and carriedi the two states which, has received both CHAIRMAN TOLL: There an two other legislative arid administrative action.. That. suggestions on this list. One is public health is to say, the administration has considered and the other marketing. the problem, has gone to the legislature, SPEAKER BITTINGER: I move a Commit and obtained authorization in each of the tee on Marketing be e.stablished. tyvo states and tjie problem is settled by Th^ motion was seconded by Senalor amicable administration and legislative ar Green, of Nebraska, and earned.' rangement. ; There, as the gentleman from CHAIRMAN TOLL: What is your pleasure •Indiana pointed out, we are getting on fairly ^•i in regard to a Committee on Public Health? well. He gave a different reason for it and SENATOR GREEN: I move it be the sense I, have no doubt that his is an entirely valid of the Conference that a Planning Commit reason. I suggest that one of the reasons tee be formed and empowered to appoint why "we have fairly amicable relations in committees on emergencies that may arise regard to the bridges, with the one excep- between our regulat^meetings. tion^ which Mr. Belknap pointed out, is CHAIRMAN TOLL: That refers to the that there has been a-normal sanction for Planning Board Committee? the relationships that exist! ^ SENATOR GREEN: Yes. The moral I would draw from that illus The motion was seconded by Mr. •Rapp tration is that in matters^of conflicting taxa of Arizona, and carried. tion or. in matters-of conflicting statutes or CHAiRiiAN TOLL: I want to devote the irregularities of any sort, there is the prob next few minutes to calling on some of the lem of legislation, but there is also the prob members' of the staff to tell you about lem of administering the legislation after matters which may be of interest to you. it is enacted. All .the parties, involved in First I shall.call on Dr. Martin, allotting the:.sifuation fieed to be consulted. him tenniinutes to. tell you something rela- . tive to conflicting taxation. Gasoline Taxes. DR. JAMES W. MARTIN: Senator Mas- One other illustration has beeii suggested tick'^utlinedto you'at one of our earlier by General Averill. The- states found, a • sessions the general set-up of the Interstate few years ago, that the difficulties of ad Commission on Conflicting Taxation and of ministering the gasoline tax by individual , the Tax Revision Council. Statements state action were well nigh insurmountable. which have been made by other speaKcrs ,In practically all the.:S'tates at the present have indicated the significance of the profi- ti^neothere are cooperative relationships be ",-lem of_confiict between the state govern- tween the states oh'the gas tax problem. ments^nd the federal government and inter For example, it has been found necessary to state conflicts in the field of taxation. exchange information as to shipments. The It seems to me I can best use the time states of Virginia and North Carolina make allotted to me by outlining two stories, one a regular habit o'f exchanging full informa of \y.hich pertains only partly to the tax tion respopyng shipments between those problem. These .are concrete instances and states, ]\lllt of the gas(5line sold in North tie into the program^ that' has been under Carolina is shipped to Norfolk and issold discussion. from Norfolk to a point in North Carolina. , In the field of taxation there is no legis-^** It ^s necessary to know what the movement lative authorization for any.peace whatever is, both at the point of the common carrier betwieen Indiana and Kentucky. It is war and the dealer, in order, to keep the situa to the teeth insoi'ar as the legislation on ' tion straight. That has been worked out the statute books of the two states is con so that there is excellent coopeiratiom.be cerned.; Such cooperation as we have in tween the state of North Carolina and the . this warf^ between tlie two states o.ri the state of Virginia. I believe that, coopera problem of trixk licensing is extra-legal. tion now has-spread to every state east of It is in the nature- of informal agreements the Mississippi. In some instances there .;> •^. 4^ ::0. 5G; THE BOOK OF THE STATES is very tordial codjjeration, and in some to tha states to enter mto crime compacts, instances it is not so cordial but neverthe- thus eliminating one or two years in the . less there is some cooperation. process. Then again the "states, through . establishment of these commissions, and • Death Taxes •. through, the work of other commissions, In the matter of death taxation, investi- have set up commissioners who can con : gation discloses that a dozen or so of the sider the crime compact and recommend ,' states have passed reciprocal legislation. it to their legislatures, thereby eliminat- • \V^slih\j^on and Oregon are two of the ing another year or two. From that standpoint, a crime compact is one which, states which have most recently passed such might.immediately be ratified-by, different ^ legislation. states.- ,j . Investigation discloses that reciprocation on that score is not the main problem. The From Hartford, I went to Pennsylvania, main problem is, in this situation, for the New Jersey, Delaware, and Maryland. A tax administrator to be informed of the few of these states did not send delegates death. The administrator«in Indiana can to General Averill's conference, thus itf miss his-claim for a death tax because there was possible for me to carry thfe results of is not any probate in Indiana and he does General Averill's. coiiference to the At not even know the thing has occurrecj, al torney General in Delaware and the At though thousands of dollars might-be in torney General in Pennsylvania, to the volved. The answer seems to be reciprocar assistant Attorney General in New Jersey, . lion at the administrative level, but since, and to renew my acquaintance with General the inheritance taxes are administered by O'Conor of Maryland. I found all tlie entirely different' officials, it helps little, ih Attorneys General very anxious to ratify, death taxation. this crime compact. I.found also that they Those are some of the concrete problems weremost interested in the results of this with \vhich ,the Interstate Commission on conference here, and in the possibilities of Conflicting.Taxation and the Tax Revision ; the commissions on. interstate cooperation. Council must deal. That is what may be Attorney General Green in Delaware told"? called a horizontal problem, strictly an in , me that the boundary commission in that terstate problem. No machinery has yet state, of '.i'hich he is the chairman, has the been developed to-deal with it.'Some authority to initiate a crime compact. That machinefy is needed and one of the jobs of is a commission which can cooperate,with the Interstate Commission is. to develop the New Jersey and Pennsylvania Com machinery whereby that sort of situation missions on Interstate Cooperation. may be dealt with. In Pennsjdvania, when I arrived, a reso CHAIRMAN.TOLL:' I would like, next, to lution establishing the interstate commis call on Mr, Gallagher to say .soriiethin^ sion had been passed, unanimously by both about the. visit he. made recently to the -houses but not signed by the goyernor. So states in the New York-New Jersey area. --they called a meeting of the chairmen of MR. HUBERT R. GALLAGHER: Starting ~ihe hoiise and senate committees and • im out with General Averill's conference of mediately appointed a sub-committee to Attorneys General in^ Hart ford, I think niy call on Governor Earle. On that committee trip may be used as a possible example of was Attorney General Margibtti and the- what a field rrian in a particular region or majority leader of the house. In talking section of the country might do. At that with the Governor, Attorney General Mar- ; conference, as he pointed out, an interstate .gibtti pointed out that a crime.^compact compact on crime was approved. was an example of compacts that could I think one ought to qualify/his remarks immediately be put into operation. Of " as to the possibilities of compacts. .., I realize course, it was not necessary to inform Gov ''they are a most unwieldy device and that ernor JEarle oif the> possibilities of interstate it takes years to consummate a compact, cooperation. He has, for some.time, been but in considering the crime compact, I interested in the Council of State Govern,? think the situation is somewhat different. ments. He immediately signed the "esolu- Congress, last year, gave blanket authority tion and appointed .five members of his MONDAY AFTERNOON.SESSION 503 cabinet as the administrative members of' magazine, STATE GOVERNMEJS.T, I wish to the commission. say that if any of you have been •editors In each of these states which I visited I you know how easy it is to make mistakes. found the state officials and the legislators So if we put.your name under'some body interested in what other states.were doing else's picture or give you a wife when you and yet they did not have the time, or the have not one, or say 1492 when we mean sources of information to find out what 1942, we did not mean anything damaging. had been accomplished., For example, At If you write to us regarding the matter, we torney General O'Conor wired the other day will make .the correction and be grateful that he was taking the sales tax before to you.' . • •' • ^ -the Supreme Court: Through Dr. Martin's There are several other publications in assistance we were able to furnish him with which we are much interested. One is a information of what other states .had done roster,of state officials, so.mething corre in their^Supreme Courts on this one ques sponding to the Congressional Directory, tion, and also-to furnish General O'Conor for state governments. Nowhere today can, with studies made of the sales tax by the oiie find adequate lists of the major state Interstate Commission, officials. We published.a list which you The chairman of the Tax Commission in will find in the first few pages of this year's Delawat? also was interested in receiving issue of the "Book of the States," but it is our study. The Attorney General in Massa incomplete because it.omits the tax com chusetts'was interested in laws relating to missioners and a great many other im regulation of optometrists and we were portant state officials. We-hope to develop able to send him a digest of those laws. something a good deal rriore complete, al The chairman of the Senate Committee of though it involves'an immense amount of Pennsylvania was interested in sterilization work. * statutes. Through our Chicago office, we A third publication, still tentative but df were able to furnish him with material on extreme importance, is a study of; the vari that subject. ous yearbooks which go under innumerable Judge Hartshorne,' the chairman of the names, such as Blue Books, Legislative New Jersey Commission, is greatly iriter- Manuals, Handbooks, and so forth. Almost ested in crime compacts and we were able every state has. some .such book of informa to furnish him with statutes actually passed tion: they differ greatly in .quantity, design, in California and Colorado, authorizing a material, and so on, but all contain some crime compact in those states. We were valuable information. able to put him in touch-with the Depart We tried an experiment, in the last few ment of Justice and other agencies, which months, of sending out research bulletins. made studies on this subject. These bulletins are generally written by I wish to point out that in this way there organizations, other than ours because we is an opportunity for a field rhan rnore do try to function as a clearing house.' We or less to decentralize the research and in tried sending them to the Speaker of the formational facilities of our central office House, asking him to give the bulletin to by visiting these people, talking with them, the man most interested in a particular mat making friends with them. It was amaz ter. The .experiment of sending the re ing to me how much they could give us and search bulletin to the presiding officer has also how much we could give to them in proved fairly satisfg.ctory, but it, is putting the way of information. I think probably an unnecessary burden on the presiding that is the best way of doing it because officer. ' . writing letters and sending reports, a& has We are always glad to serve ^you and,..if been pointed out, is almost worthless.' any information can be found on any sub CHAIRMAN TOLL: I would now like to ject in which you are interested, we will allot five minutes to Mr. Benson, who has be pleased to try to secure it for you. been acting as Managing Editor of STATE , CHAIRMAN TOLL: I cannot tell the. GovERNAiENT, and performing other very members of this group how fortunate they useful functions at headquarters. are, as a group, in the interest manifested MR. GEORGE C. S.; BENSON:: As to the by the members of the staff. I do not 504 THE BOOK OF THE STATES. think any organization has ever had a staff pletes the subjects which we have on the in which the members were as genuinely agenda. Is there any other subject which engrossed in the work in which they are any one desires to present at this time? If engaged upon as- is true of, this orgariiza- not, I think I should assume to express tiori. It is a field where the person enter the appreciation of the people of this coun ing upon it becomes very much obses°sed by try and of the' state governments for the it. As one" sees the needs of the states and services you are rendering by devoting your time and thought inthe way you are doing,, establishes the very interesting and pleasant in.making the effort to take a trip of this contacts that are built up, it results in' a sort in order to cIR-y on the work you are constant increase of interest. It certainly all doing, and in trying to devise better has been, a privilege for me to work with governmental organizations for the. people thestaff which we have. It is a staff which of this country. .• does not know there is a clock or a calendar. By nwfifl7i regularly made, •seconded, and The members of the staff were •presented. carried', the meeting adjourned: sine die at • CHAIRMAN ; TOLL : I believe this, com tJve-fiJteen'P.M. (SR V . THE.MEETING OF. THE COUNCIL OF STATE GOVERNMENTS ; Aiiu'ricanJ-eijislators',Association, pp. 454, 458, 476 "I.abtir anil Industry, pp. 459, 477. . .• ; ^ *AnKell, Homer ixlpp. 475, 499, iOO-501 conference on. p. 455 '. : . Attornevs GL'neral,''Nalional Association of, pp. 477, l.asswell, liarold IJ., remarks by, pp. 468-469 • ••, . •-• ~ • • 497-' • • •' . • • ' . • -• :/ , • I.awrejice, Keith, p. 486 Averill, Ernest L., pp. 477-47S; 4.97'^ ;^ I:azear, E(l\vard T., p. 480 . Leap. .S. RtisliuK. pp. 456-457, 491 Beiknap/AVilliam H.. pp. 473,,489-490. .490. 50J l.ecisiation, uniformity of, pp. .453, 455 . .' Benson, George C. S., p. 503 . .1 ~ Leei.slative Reference Bureaus, pp. 476, 4S6, 489-490 . \ . Berc, Julius S., pp. 458-459. • , . Liijuor control, p. 456- . ^ ^. * .• Bitlin«er, J. Freer, pp. 4S5, 493, 494-495, 501 Lori.t;, Henry' F,, p. 484 • '^ . Book of the States, the. [)|). 458. 472 . Brownlow, Louis, address hy, pp. 465-467 Marriage and divorce, p. 481 . '-.•.•-•• •* V •' '••''' • -Martin, James W., pp. 501-502, • '. Cokcr, Francis \V.,. p. 478 Mastick, Seabury C, pp. 473-474 Commissions on Interstate Cooperation, '• -Mfuv. Herbert B..-pp. .476.-477, 492 history of, p. 454 .Milk control, pp. 456-457! 478 \.' ' .. orsanizaiion of, pp. 476, 480, 486-487 .Mininu'". legislation on, pp. 476-477 sub-committees of, pp.. 455, 457-458 '.Motor- vehicles, pp. 458, 478, 481- Council of State Governinents, Myers. .Mrs. Florence W., pp. 459, 481- '. " . . and- Ameryran Legislators' .Association, pp. 458- National T.-ix .-\ssociation; pp. 483-484 - . .459 •" • "• "• - - • • . •. , -^^ . Committees of. pp. 494-495, 49S,,\50()-.rOI ' i Xef, John U.. remarks by. pp. 469-470 . • Conferees,. pp; 45i,;i52 O'Gara, \\\ H.. p.;4S6! --.. Sessions " Saturday morning,, PI). 453-45" Oneal,- Ben ;(;..i)p. 474-475, 406-4.97-' Saturday^ everiin.':. pp..461.v47l Puul.'7^se[ih ("., pp. 456,.4o,v . •-.Sunday morninK, pp. .472-47>f. Sunday afternoon, pp. 4S0.-4R7 •Rapp", John H.. pp. 483,'4.02 Monday morninp, pp. 4S9-4<)5 f^ Rohincau, .S. Pierre, pp. 481-482. 4,-^0. 492, 493-494, Monday afternoon, pp. 496-504 500 . • • -• • ,. . Federal .powers, expansion iif. j). 45.i ° Sah's taxes. |ip. 456, 472 .•/•" , • »•' . '. .:. ' . • . Schechter case, tht!, pp. •1*99-500, and passim Gallifsjher, Hubert R.,..pp. 502-50.^ Seiirs, KennethC., remark.s by,. p|.'.'470-471 Gen/rv, Joe G., p. 472 j .Secretaries .of .'^tate. pp. 497-49S • . . ' Gil|W,<,I). Stuart, pp. 484. 4"0' .Smi\h. T. \'...iip. 4,67, 468. 460. 470. 471, 498-499. .G$jdon. DotiRla.^-Hl, p.. 485 ' ' • address byi pp. 462-464 ' " ', ; • G|-idy. Paul D., pp. 472..408. 500 • •.. • SiateA> ri«hts..pp. 453. -475. 4,82. 49S-40M ' Graves, Andrew J., p. 476 ("".reen. ChaHes D.. ()p. 4S2-4S3,'50I Tax RoKisiun C'liuncil.'ii, 474.' . • Giilick. Luther. t)pT47.K-47o. 406 Taxatiori. contlictini:, pp. 501-502 ^ • . •roll. ?ler^ry W.. remarks by. pii, 45.i-45;', and passhif .Interstate .As.sembly. p. 480 Interstate Cooperatibji rible, Frank R.. [>• •*73 • and state-federal cooperation, pp. 4.65--466 . - . bv compacts, pp. 457. 467. 473. 474. 475, 47S. 47''. \Vaten|)aui;h. Henry D.. |.p. 480-481 , \ •: 483- •.. • .. • • ..,• . Water, pollution of. p. 474 V • niachinery for. pp.• 454. 472. 47o sui)ply. pp. \474, 475. 481, 482 ' , . problems of,, p. 496 '. ' ' ways; p. 478 ' • . . - . . • • reuional, pp. 455.. 473. 477. 47^. 48.>. 4S4. 4.Sv • Weiss, Jacob, ni'. 475-476. 40] • . , . 4S7. 489-496.'502-503 v Wolber. :Jose|ih':G., pp. 454. 455-456. 457 sec a/iO.Commissions__on, •• . address-..by, p.\4()7 .. •• '. '^ ^ ...-.•"' • Killian, Charles. .A., p. -477 • /.inimerinan,, Freilc.f.ick I;., p.. 4,79 ; 305^