Elptb SerIeI. Vol. L. No. 48 FrIda" May 12. 1'89 Valloba 22. I'll (Slta)

LOK SABRA DEBATES (English Version)

ThirteeDth SessioD (Eightb Lok Sabba)

(Vol. L contaiDS Nos. 41 to 49)

LOE SABHA SECIlETAIlU'I NEW DELHI P,Ice I R.t.6.oo (oalODIAL BNGLWI Plloc.DlNGI INCLUDIIJ) IN BNOLISII VIUION AND OUGINAL HINDI PIDCBIDINGS INCLUDID IN HINDI VDIION WILL • TaBATED AS AUTBOIUTATI'VB AND NO)' TBI TLUilLAnOH TBIIJIO'.) CONTENTS

[Eighth Series, Volume XL IX- Thirtepnth Session, 198917 911 (Saka)

No. 48, Friday, May 12, 1989/Valsakha 22, 1911 (Saka)

COLUMNS

Papers Laid on the Table 7-8

Message From Ralya Sabha 8

Assam University Bill As passed by RaJYa Sabha - Laid on the TDbie 8

Assent to Bill 8

Aill - Introducpd

Wealth (Inhentance ) Duty Bill 9

~1atters Under Rule 377 9--?1

(I) Need to cover cotton growprc, under 9-11' Crop Insurance Scheme

Dr DlgvlJay Sinh

(II) Need for a detailed survey for Irrrgation 12-14 projects In Gundlupet Taluk I)f Mysore dlstrrct to save It from continUing drought

Shn V. Sreenlvasa Prasad

(IIi) Need to Include scholars of P311 also for 14-16 annual awards/certificates

Prof. NArarn Chand Parashar

(IV) Need to direct DDA not to increase the announced 17-18 cost of flats under self-financing scheme and also to allot flats to the registrants of HUDeO Scheme of 1979

Shri Keshaorao Pardhi (ii)

CoLUMNS (v) Need to provide intand water transport facility 17-18 between Ernakulam and Kanyakumari

Shri N. Dennis

(vi) Need to rehabilitate the Sir Silk ltd., 18 Kaganagar in Andhra Pradesh by handing it over to the workers cooperative.

Shri C. Madhav Reddi

(vii) Need to improve the telecommunication 19 system in Sunderbans (West Bengal)

Shri Sanat Kumar Mandai

(viii) Need to direct NAFED to purchase onions 19-20 in Gujarat to save the farmers from less.

Shrimati Patel Ramaben Ramjibhai Mavan;

(ix) Need to ensure regular water supply to villages of 20-21

outer Delhi.

Shri Bharat Singh

Discussion Under Rule 193 Uberalisation of Orders Improving Representation of 21-83 Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes in Central Government Posts/Services.

Shri Balkavi Bairagi 21-27

Shri Syed Shahabuddin 27-31

Shri Ram Ratan Ram 31--37

Shri o.B. Patil 37-40

Shri P.K. Thungon 40-43

Shri Ramashray Prasad Singh 43--45

Shri Harihar Soren 45-48

Shri Bopulal Malviya 48-50 (iii)

ColUMNS Shr; V. Tutsjram 50-54

Shri Tafun Kanti Ghosh 54-66

Ch.Sunder Singh 56-58

Shri A.P. Suman 58-63

Shri Arvind Netam 63-65

Shri Pratap Bhanu Shacam 65-69

Shri Ramwarilal Bair.~a 69-72

Shri P. Chidambaram 72-83

Discussion Under Aule 193 83-131 Atrociti~s on Women

Shri Batwant Singh Ramoowalia 84-91

Kumari Mamata Bnnerjee 91-99

Shrimati Bibha Ghosh Goswami 99-104

Shri Brajamohan Mohanty 104-107

Shri K. Ramachandra Reddy 107-110

01 G.S. Rajhans 111-116

Shrimati Margaret Alva 116-127

Shri P. Kolandaivelu 128-131

Discussiun Under Rule 193 132-190

Acute Shortage of Drinking Water in Various Parts of the Country

Si'ri Harish Rawat

Shri Ram Singh Yadav 139-144

Shri Srikar'lth~ Datta 144-14' Narasimharaja Wadiyar (iv) COLUMNS Shri Gopala Krishna Thota 148-150

Shri Mohd. Ayub Khan (Jhunjhunu- Rajasthan) 150-153

Shri Saifuddin Chowdhary 153-159

Shri Chandulal Chandr:1kar 159-163

Shn Bharat Singh 163-165

Shri V.S. Krishna Iyer 165-168

Shri Ram Bhagat Paswan 168-171

Shri Somnath Rath 171-174

Shri Piyus Tiraky 174-177

Dr. Phulrenu Guha 177-179

Shri Banwari Lal Purohit 179-181

Shri Aziz Qureshi 182-183

Prof. Saifuddln Soz 183-185

Shri Harihar Soren 185-188

Shri Kayur Bhushan 188-189 LOK SABHA DEBATES

LOKSABHA

(English]

Friday, May 12, 1989/Vaisakha 22, 1911 SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK (Panaji)~ (Saka) There is a saying in Hindi as 'Chor Macha; Shor',,. (Interruptions)... They have been doing all these things and now they are taking some excuses. rlls Lok Sabha met at Eleven of the Clock MR. SPEAKER: If they have done [English] something good. why should you blame them? [MR. SPEAKER in the Chair} SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK: Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others. SHRt P. KOLANDAIVElU (Gobichetti­ palayam): Sir, I have given a privilege mo­ MR. SPEAKER: There is nothing. It tion against the Indian Express. Today, on does not matter. page number 9, under the heading 'The PAC's new Chairman", they have said 'The SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE man who makes wild charges'. Under this (Bolpur): What is the imputation of Mr. Naik? heading, there is character assassination He says 'Chor Machai Shor' (Interruptions) with a view to malign my pos~ion and image before the public and with this utterior mo­ SHAI SHANTARAM NAIK: It is a say­ tive, they have done this. ing. (Interruptions)

[ Translation] [ Trans/ation]

MR. SPEAKER: I will look into it. MR. SPEAKER: Why do you create disturbance. [English] [English] KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE (Jadavpur): Sir, in our ("'Ountry, there is a SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK: I hope this saying as IChor Machai idiom has not been expunged. (Interrup- Shor'.... (Ints"uptions) •... You see the National tions) Herald. The Hegde Government seeks for customs duty exemption for fodder produc­ tion units. SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY (Mahbubnagar): Sir, you were pleased to (Translation) dire(-1 the Government yesterday to see that the C&AG para on Bofo,. ... MR. SPEAKER: JtdQesn'tmatter, what's the harm in it~ MR. SPEAKER: I have done it atr.ady. l 3 MAV 12,1989 4

SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY: It is true but MR. SPEAKER: What can I do? Also in what is the tim. frame? We want an assur­ the rules there is no such stipulation. I could ance from you and a direction from you that not have gone out of the rules. There is no it will be placed Oft the Table by Monday at such stipulation that by Ihis date this has to least be done. That is why I said--expeditiously.

( Translation] ( Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Whatever I said, I wlfl SHRI V. KISHORE CHANDRA S. DEO stand by it. (Parvathipuram): The report has to be placed on the Table of the House. Constitutional (English] obligation is there ... ( Int9rruption~

SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA (Bankura): MR. SPEAKER: Might be. You have said categorically that ~ will be placed on the Table during this session itself. SHRI AMAL DATTA: What are they processing? Are they tampering with the MR. SPEAKER: What I have said, I report? .. ( Interruptions). It should ba placed have already said. I never go back on my on the Table of the House. There is nothing words. I have already done it. that the Government can do .... ( Interruptions)

SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA: On Mon­ MR. SPEAKER: Look here, gentlemen, day it should be placed on the Table as per we decided yesterday; there was a complete your directions. assurance on the floor of the House that

I there cannot be and shall not be tampering ( Interruptions) or anything like that. It has to be done ac­ cording to the rules. MR. SPEAKER: We will see this. SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY: What about SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY: Sir, your delay? direction will go waste. SHRI AMAL DATTA: There is nothing [ Translation] to process. What is the justification for de· tay? Let them explain .... ( Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: I have already said that we will see it when it comes. How can I MR. SPEAKER: There is no such ruls. commit before that. SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA: It is mys­ [English] terious that the report has been sent to the Defence Ministry ... ( IntBrruptions). They can SHAI S. JAIPAL REDDY: There is only read the report after laying it on the TabJe of one day left. the House ... ( Interruptions) *

MR. SPEAKER: No, there are stilt three MR. SPEAKER: We discussed every days. thing yesterday. Nothing goes on record.

( Intenvptions) ( Intenuptions)·

SHRI AMAL DAlTA: Even if they place MR. SPEAKER: I have given my ruRng it on the Table of the House on Monday, yesterday. there woutd be no discussion in the House. -Not rea>rded. 5 VAtsAKHA22. 191' (SAKA) 8

MR. SPEAKER; They don't let me MR. SPEAKER: What we did y.sterd_ speak. was that we decided ..

(/nte"uptions) SHRt AMAL DATTA: What did you decide? KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE: Sir, we want a discussion on the Atrocities on MR. SPEAKER: I told you yesterday. Women and aJso a discussion on the Scar­ c~y of Drinking Water. ( Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: We shalt have the MR. SPEAKER: Now, Papers to be discussion on Atrocities on Women at 2.00 laid. Shri Arunachalam. 0' clock. ( Interruptions) KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE: What about the discussion on the Scarcity of Drink­ SHRt AMAL DA ITA: The Report should rng Water. be laid today so that we can discuss it on Monday. MR. SPEAKER: That is after that. MR. SPEAKER: I cannot do that. I SHRI V. KISHORE CHANDRA S. DEO: cannot assure you. Sir, has the Government indicated to you as to when the Report.. (Intenvptions)

MR. SPEAKER: I can only say, Kishore SHRI SHANTARAM NArK: You cannot Chandra that we dlscuss9d it yesterday in dictate the Government. full detail. We have discussion on the floor of the House. Under the rules I did whatever I (Interruptions) could. I have told the Government and Ithink they have taken a note of it. MR. SPEAKER: No rules allow me to do that. ( Interruptions) SHRI V. KISHORE CHANDRA S. DeO: MR. SPEAKER: Whatever I have to do, Sir. I have give a Privilege Motion againstthe I have done. Home Minister, Shri Buta Singh.

( Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: I have already taken action and I will be gettinq back to you. MR. SPEAKER: I have done my job and I think they will do it. ( Interruptions)

SHRI AMAL DATTA: You ask them to MR. SPEAKER: Hthe House does not place the report today. Why should not tha IikG to proceed, I can adjoum the House. If Report be placed today? you want to go like this, what can I do?

MR. SPEAKER: Icannotdothat.Amatii SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHARY I can only go to the limits up to which t am (Katwa): You first listen to us. allowed, and I have gone that far. I have dona whatever 1could. MR. SPEAKeR: • fistened you yester­ day and 1have listened you today also. SHRIAMAlDATTA: TheGovemment's SHRf BASUDEB ACfiARIA: What 1s only duty is to lay itonthe Table of the House. your ruling~ 1 MAY 12t t989 Asssnt 10 Sill 8

MR. SPEAKER: I have told you yester­ mini cement plants. [Placed in d.". Rulings are not ropeated daily. Library. See No.lr-7966189]

SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA: Yesterday I could not read it. '1.13112 hrs. MR. SPEAKER: Then you read it. MESSAGE FROM RAJYA SABHA Papers to be laid [English]

SECRETARY·GENERAl: Sir, I have to 11 .. 13 hr•• report the following message received from Secretary-General of Rajya Sabha:- PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE "In accordance with the provisions of [English] rule 111 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business in the Rajya Sabha, Annual Report and review on the I am directed to enclose a copy of tile working of Tool Room and Training Assam University Bill, 1989, which has Centr., Deihl for 1987-88 and statement been passed by the Rajya Sabha at ~s correcting reply to vsq dated 7721 sitting held on the 11th May, 1989." regarding mini cement plants

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE OEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL DEVEL­ 11.14 hrs. OPMENT IN THE MINISTRY OF INDUS­ TRY (SHRI M. ARUNACHALAM): I beg to ASSAM UNIVERSITY BILL lay on the Table: As passed by RaJya Sabha

(1) A copy of the Annual Report [English] (Hindi and English versions) of the Tool Room and Training SECRETARY-GENERAL: Sir, I lay on Centre, Delhi, forthe year' 987- the Table the Assam University Bill, 1979, as 88 atong with AlJdited Accounts. passed by Rajya Sabha.

(2) A statement (Hindi and English 11.141/2 hr•. versions) regarding Review by the Government on the working ASSENT TO BILL of the Tool Room and Training [English] Centre, Delhil for the year 1987- 8S.[Placed in library. See No. Appropriation (No.2) Bill, 1989 l T.. 7965/89] SECRETARY-GENERAL: IlayonTable the Appropriation (No.2) Bill, 1989 passed (3~ A statement (Hindi and ~ngtish by the Houses of Parliament during the cur­ • .! verslOns) correctmg the reply rent session and assented to since a report given on the 2nd May, 1989 to was last made to the House on the 7th April, Unstarred Question No. n21 by 1989 Shri Mohanbhai Patel fegarding 9 ~~""MrCeJ YAISAKHA 22. 11' 1 (SAKA)Matters ~_IN t,~

11.15 ...... ( Intenvptions) WEALTH (INHERITANCE) DUTY BilL SHRI KHURSHIO AHMED CH· (English) OUOHRY (Faridab$d): Sir, I refer to an item which appeared in the Tribune .. This is an THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE important matter. The CentraJ Government DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE IN THE through their inteltigence agencies has MINISTRY OF FINANCE (SHRJ A.K. started operating in Haryana the

MAneRS UNDER RULE 3n THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (So aUTA SINGH): How can I whisper such [English] a thing from here? I have not whispered anything in his ear. (I) Need to cover cotton grow­ er. under Crop Insurance SHRI V. KISHORE CHANDRA S. oeo: Scheme Not you. Somebody from the Secretariat came and whispered (Interruptions) DR, DfGVIJAY SINH (Surendranagar): The cotton growers of India are placed in a SHAI AMAl DATTA (Diamond Har· greater predicament than any other agricul­ bour): What IS happening to Parliament? tural producers because cotton is produced The motion which you say you have referred in marginal semi-arid regions suffering re· to them, has been disallowed byyeul (Int(N" curring drought conditIOns and crop failures. ruptions)

In normal years, they suffer from non· MR. SPEAKER: Is thiS about the Sabri remunerative prioes in production because Uasjid issue? Just a minute please ... let me of the growing use of man made fibres; glut find out. There might have been a Slip. Yes in global production of cotton an j the prolif­ pleas,. It has been disallowed. Sony. eration of sick mills. ( Interruptions) W,-ys and means must be found to offer crop ineurance schemes to cotton growers. SHRI AMAL OA ITA: This is an 1mpOt''' tant issue. -Moved/Introduced with the Recommendation of President. 11 MAY 12. 1989{

SHRI V. KISHORE CHANDRA S. Deo: (Interruptions) This is a case of deliberate misleading of the House. It has even been flashed on the TV' MR. SPEAKER: If you do not take your seats, I win adjourn the House. MR. SPEAKER: We11. wecandiscuss'tt I you come to me. SHRI AMAl DAnA: Why should you adjoum the HolM? SHRI AMAL DATTA: What is there to discuss? We have to see whether he has MR. SPEAKER: Because you are not misled the House or not. allowing me to run the House properly.

MR. SPEAKER: That is all right. I have ( Interruptions) satisfied myself about it and I have disal· lowed it.

(Interruptions) MAnERS UNDER RULE 377 .. CONTD

SHRt BHADRESWAR TANTI (Kalia­ [Engli~h] bot): Sit, 23 worke,s were dismissed from sefVioe by the management of Behora Tea (II) Need for 8 detailed survey estate in my constituency for Irrigation proJects In illegally ... (Interruptions) Gundlupet Taluk of Mysore district to save H from con­ MR. SPEAKER: This is a matter con­ tinuing drought cerning the Assam State. Please sit down. SHRI V. SREENIVASA PRASAD (Interruptions) (Chamarajanagar): Gundlupettaluk located in Mysore district is declared as drought SHRI V. KISHORE CHANDRA S. DEO: prone talldk, as it is now having any irrigation Sir, this is a clear case of deliberately mis­ project. leading this august House. Four tanks suffer due to failure of rains MR. SPEAKER: I am satisfied about it. in catchment area. It is necessary to divert water from Nugu Hole or Hebballa valley for SHAt AMAL DATTA: Will you give a assuring water supply 2000 hectares exist­ ruling Sir? ing under these 4 tanks and a fresh atchkat of about for the atchkat of about 1000 hec­ MR. SPEAKER: I will aive my ruling if tares enroute the canal. you like To divert water, detailed survey has to SHRt AMAl DATTA: ...... (Interrup- be conducted. In the ahernative surveys for tions) ...... storing water from Hebbal1a valley and di­ verting the same to Gundu river have to be MR. SPEAKER: No. t cannot allow it. conducted.

S. BUlA SINGH: Sir, I take strong Preliminary investigations of proposals objection to it. It should be expunged. based on tope .. sheet studies have been under progress since 1977. ProjeC1reports could SHRI ASUTOSH LAW (Dum Dum): He not howover be finaUsed as detailed surveys should apologise. could not be conducted far want of permis­ sion from the FOMSt Department. The pr0j­ MR. SPEAKER: It is expunged. ect lies within the territorial limits of Bandipur ··Expunged as'ordered by the Chair 13 VAISAKMA 22,1911 (SAKA)

National Patk Wh~ comes under centrally [Translation] sponsored 'Project Tiger'. and any construc­ tion work in the reserved forest area will Sir, I hava repeated it several times. I hamper the natural habitat and disturb the have said what I had to. In piat" wild life and ecological environment. words ... ( Interruptions)

I urge Union Government to grant per· [English) mission to the State Government to conduct detailed investigations to find out the feasi­ SHAI AMAl DATTA (Diamond Har· bility of the project. bour): I have sent you a letter yesterday.

MR. SPEAKER: I got your lettar yeater· day. I got your letter earlier also. I have ( Interruptions) replied to that. It is not a question of accord· Ing to your wishes or their wishes. Simple it MR. SPEAKER: Only Shri Sreenivasa is. Prasad goes on record. That is aU. ( InterruptIOns, [ Translation)

( Interruptionst MAITERS UNDER RULE 377-CONTD MR. SPEAKER: Please give it to me In writing. I will look Into it. [English]

[English] (III) Ne.d to Include scholar. of Pall also for Grant of annual ( Int9ffuptions)* awards/certificate.

MR. SPEAKER: Only Shri Sreentvasa PROF. NARAIN CHAND PARASHAR Prasad goes on record. (Hamirpur): The Government of India con­ fers annual awards and certificates to re­ nowned scholars of Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian. These awards have brought recog .. [ Translationl n~lon and also sustained a number of iIIustri· ous scholars-most of them in their old age. MR. SPEAKER: I win look Into It. Please sit down. The scholars of PaU are however, not Included in this category inspite of the fact [English] that Pali I"erature isone otthe richest in Asia and IS almost at par with Sanskrit in being a ( Interruptions)· rich treasure house of ancient culture and philosophy. Pall is being in a number of MR. SPEAKER: Nothing goes on rec· Universities and Institutes of higher learning ord. You sit down. in our country at present and is also ac­ cepted as a subject of examination by the ( Interruptions)- UPSC. Some colleCllons of Pan Utetatur. and translations from this language have MR. SPEAKER: I have explained to the also beenpubtishad by the Sahftya Akadlml. House whatever I hav$ W explain. Many neighbouring Buddhist countriet ••

-Not recorded. 15 Matters Under MAY 12, 1989 Rule 377 16

[Prof. Narain Chand Parashar] either today or tomorrow. I have never been afraid of it. Sri Lanka. Burma. Thailand; Laos, Kampu­ chea and Vietnam as also Japan have pro­ (Intsrruptions) vided adequate facilities for the growth of Pali language and literature and for conduct­ MR. SPEAKER: Ploase sit down qui­ ing research in this rich field. etly.

I, therefore, request the Government of [English] India to include the scholars of Pali for the grant of annual awards/certificates so as to ( Interruptions)·· provide them recognition and encourage­ ment. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Pardhi is going on record. Nothing else goes on record. MR. SPEAKER: Don't interrupt me. ( Interruptions)·· SHRI AMAL DATTA (Diamond Har­ bour): What is your decision on that? MR. SPEAKER: Nothing goes on rec- ord. MR. SPEAKER: That is what I am saying. You sit down. What has been done, ( Interruptions)** has been done. Everything has been put before the House. MR. SPEAKER: Nothing goes on rec­ ord, except Mr Pardhi. [Translation] (Interruptions)" This House is supreme. It is the master. I am at its service. I have already said and MAnERS UNDER RULE 377-CONTD. repeat the same that...(/nterruptions) [ Trans/ation] MR. SPEAKER: Everything is done in a systematic manner. What I have said is (Iv) Need to direct DCA not to according to the rules and everything would Increase the announced cost be accomplished accordingly. I had said one of flats under self-financing thing. I stick to it and will stick to it in future scheme and aIso to a lIot flats also. to the registrants of HUDeO scheme of 1979 [English] SHRI KESHAORAO PARDHI (Bhan­ SHRIAMALDATIA: Whatisthelawon dara): Mr. Speaker, Sir, DDA had recently the subject? issued charter of demands under the self financing scheme which showed he sudden [ Trans/ation] increase of about 50 to 75 per cent of the cost of flats. Thousands of people were affected MR. SPEAKER: The law on the subject by it and they opposed it strongly. As a result says that what you have asked for, has been the issue of charter of demand was sus­ already replied, and there is no other reply pended but no definite assurance for reduc­ for it. The choice is yours. So far as I am ing the cost of flats has yet been given by concerned I am not bothered even if I am D.D.A. In her reply to the unstarred question hanged to death for the cause of farmf;\rs. I No. 7835 in the Lok Sabha, also. the hon. am not afraid to face the consequences

*Not recorded. 11 Mattsrs Under VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) Rule 377 18

Minister did not give a claar assurance for yakumari and Trivandrum, through the an· reducing the cost. Thousands of those who cient Ananda Victoria Marthanda Varma desire to acquire flats are worried on this Canal. Subsequently, breaches occurred account and are making frantic enquiries which closed some portions of the A.V.M. from the DDA office but the officials do not Canal with sand and earth, and they have give satisfactory reply to them. not been removed for years. Due to non­ maintenance and long neglected, now there Besides, DDA has not yet allotted flats i$ no continuous water transport service. If to those who registered their names under the gaps in the AVM Canal are removed and HUDeO scheme in 1979. It hds deprived canal renovated, continuity could be restored, thousands of people of lower income group and a convenient and highly useful inland from getting flats. water transport facility could be easily achieved between Trivandr urn and Kan­ The Government is urgeD upon the yakumari too By carrying out renovation cancel the untimely and undue increase in and maintenance work further north between the cost of 1lats under self flilancing scheme Trivandrum and Ouilon, a very useful inland and provide considerable time to deposit water transport facility between Ernakulam money in order to provide relief to those Wl10 and Kanyakumari can be provided. Such a are realty desirous of acqlJiri"9 flat~ They facility would greatly promote trade, (;om­ should also allot flats to the people of lower merce and tourism, and also provide cheaper Income group under HU[)CO scheme imme­ and popular transport facility. It would pro­ diately to do justice with them. (Interrup­ mote national integration too. tionsr* In request that GovernmAnt may take [English] Immediate steps forthe speedy implementa­ tion of this inland water transport facilhy MR. ~PEAKER: Nothing goes on rec­ betwp.Gn Ernakulam and Kanyakuma~i. ord, except Mr. Pardhl. (vi) Need to rehabilitate the Sir [Eng/Ish] Silk Ltd. Kagaznagar In Andhta ~radesh by handing (v) Need to provide inland wa­ it over to the workers coop~ ter transport facility between erative Ernakulam and Kan­ yakumari SHRI C. MADHAV REDOI (Adilabad): I wish to draw the attention of the Minister for Industries towards the closure of the Sir Silk SHRI N. DENNIS (Nagarcoil): Provi­ LilT'ited, Kagaznagar in ~.ndhra Pradesh for sion of bland wuter transport facility be­ mora than four years, rendering more than tween Ernakulam and Kanyakumafl, the 5,000 workers uremployed. southern-most part of our country, would accelerate and promote greatly the eco­ AS a Rart of th~ programme to rehabili­ nomic and tourist activities of the south­ tate this industry, it was referred to the Board westem region of our cO'Jntry. Such a facility of Industrial Finance a;,d Reconstruction cou~d be easIly ser.ured by the renovation (SIFR). But so far, no concrete scheme for and removal of the gaps that exist In some reconstructIon has emerged: I urge upon the places, mainly between Kanyakumari and Government to immediately rehabilitate the Trivandrum. industry, by handing it over to the workers' cooreratlve, and remove the widespread Previously, there WflS continuous nnd distress of the workers and their deJj8nd· r~!Jular inland water iacility between Kan- ent~.

• ·Not recorded. 19 Matters Under MAY 12.1989 Ru1e377 20

(vII) Need to Improve the tele­ sive years in Gujarat, there has beGn a goOd communication system in onion crop this year. But from financial point Sunderbans (West Bengal) of view. this year too has proved to be a drought year. Due to good harvest, the price SHRI SANAT KUMAR MANDAL (Joyn­ of onion has fallen so sharply in the whole­ agar): While nature has been bountiful in sale market that the farmer can just manage giving rich flora and fauma to Sunderbans in to get only the cost of transportation and West Bengal, the entire area continues to be sometimes even less than that. In my view, ex1remely backward and poverty-ridden. tn the Government should formulate a policy the context of the present day fast develop­ according to which, whenever the prices of ing tele-communications and micro-wave and commodities fall, the Government agency satellite links for better communication, this should intervene without any delay in order area has been somewhat ignored. Schemes to check the price~. Some policy should be have been prepared but they seem to be formulated to divide the burden of loss borne gathering dust somewhere in the Depart­ by the agency. ment of Telecommunications at the Centre. NAFED or any other Government The scheme with five long distance agency should oe directed to purchase on­ public telephones on multi-access rural radIo ions in Gujarat immediately in tile interest of system with base station at Canning--the onion growers ther&. G~teway to Sunderbans-was likely to be commissioned in Marcn las(. but it has not as The Government of Gujarat is ready to yet been done. On this depends further bear half the loss borne by NAFED in this opening of long distance rJllbllC telephol1es work If the Central Government agrees to at tho remairling Places itt the al sa and the bear the remaining loss a"d direct NAFED to State of We'2t Bengal. I wOuld urge for its Intervene in the matter, then the farmers can early ex€cuti::>n. be s:j\led.

As ragards the setting up of a micro­ (Ix) NeGd to ensure regular wa­ wave station in Sunderb::lns, the We'3t Ben­ ter supply to the villages of gal Telecom. Circle and proposed the set­ Outer Deihl ting up nf one 34 MBtS Digital system (420 channel) capacity botwf1en Calcutta and Canning during the current plan: but it is still SHRI BHARAT SINGH (Outer Delhi): awaiting final exnmination atthe DOT Head­ Mr. Speaker, Sii, the water in my area­ quarters in New Deihl and allocation offunds. outer Delhi, particularly in Ochandi and I will very strongly ur(Je for its eRrly clearance Qutabgarh villages is brackish. So, water and implementation during this last year of from Nazafgarh-Haidarpur Tank is sup­ the current ~Ian. Both these systems, when plied there. But there is acute shortage of commissioned, will not only boost the tourist drinking water in Tikri-Kalan and Hirkudana. traffic but also the economy of this Door and Many other village~ are also facing acute backward Sunderbans area. shortrtg~ of drinking water. Drinki"9 water available In all the villages two years ago, but [ Translation] the population of Rohini, Vikaspuri, Pa'3chim Villar ar.d Pritampura has increased mClni­ (" iii) Nood to direct NAFED to folds. Most of the water is consumed in these purchase onions In Gujarat arp.as Th6 HaidarplJr plant is located in to save t he farmers from loss H,)jderpur village but the people of this area arp deprived of water supply. Another plant SHRIMATI PATEL RAMA8EN should be set up thara at the ~arliQ91 in order RAMJIBHAI MAVANI (Rajkot): Mr. Spe~ker. to proYtde drinking water in every village in Sir, after a severe drouqnt for three sl.!cces- Delhi. Till then water should be provided 21 Disc. on Liberaiisation of VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA)orders reo rep. of S.O.S. T. 22 through tankers in the areas which are run­ The first is Har;jan and the other is ·ShOO,.. ning short of drinking water. There is no reference even to untouchabil­ ity. These words are unknown to Indian culture. I would draw the attention of the august House that these two words."Harijan 11.35 hr•. and untouchability, are not be found either in the Indian culture or in our scriptures. These DISCUSSION UNDER RULE 193 were added afterwards.

[English] Our Vedic tradition, or literacy tradition is 5000 years old. It is a seriol IS issue to have Llberallsatlon of Orders improving Rep­ a discussion in Lok Sabha as to whether the resentation of Sc.heduled Castes and Government should continue with reserva­ Scheduled Tribes In Central Govern~ tion or not. In this context, first, I am grateful ment PostslServices-Contd. to Shri Rajiv Gandhi. who, while addressing rally at Lucknow, announced that the reser­ MR. SPEAKER: The House shall now vation facilities will continue till 2000 A.D. Mr. take up further discussion under Rule 193 on Speaker, Sir, you may be aware that it was the statement mad~ by the MInister of State Mahatma Gandhi who coined the word in the Ministry of Personnel, Public Griev­ 'Harijan'for Hindi dictionary. One thing more, ances and Pensions in the House on the towards whjch I would like to draw the atten­ 19th April, 1989 regarding liberalisation of tion of the learned Member of this House is orders with a viewto improvmg the represen­ that Mahatma Gandhi had once remarked tation of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled that III Wish to De born from the womb 0; a Tribes communities i" Central Government HanJan mother in my nAxt birth, rf at aU I get Posts/Services, raised by Shri E. Ayyapu next birth, I want to be born as a Harijan in my Reddy on 4th May, 1989. Thisdiscusslonwill :loxt birth" Mahatma Gandhi han uttered go upto 2 P.M. these words. whilE' expressing his agony over the matter It is our earnest duty to work The House shall also take up discus­ for the development of Harijans and AdivA· sion under Rule 193 under item no I at 2 sis and the Congr ess has taken this respon­ P.M. sibility sincerely.

The House shall also take up di~.cus­ The Congr9ss party is not doing any­ sian under Rule 193 under item no. 8 at 4 thing new. While ~ was out of power, it was P.M. doing this thing through propagating idealogy and arousing mass awakening and now in Shri Balkavi Balragi. power. it is doing this through launching programme. [Translation] I don't swailow one thing over my throat. SHRI BALKAVI BAIRAGI (Mandsaur): At times some of our colleagues say that Mr. Speaker. Sir, I am grateful 10 you for reservation should be given on the basis of giving me an opportunity to participate in the economic condition. I would like to submit discussion under Rule 193 on scheduled them that how a community which has been castes and Sch9duled tribes in the House. suppressed on caste line for the last five As you are yourself a ~anskrit scholar and thousand years is expected to be so de".f~ might be familiar with the Vedas our anCient oped within 40-42 years tha~ it can be sel­ scriptures-I would like to draw your atten­ sufficient. Poverty can be one of the criteria. tion from the new view point. You may be but the t eservation policy in its present form aware that till the Vedic period, the Vedic should be continued till tile standard of living literature makes no roference to twc words. of the supprassed com mun:tias also come at 23 Disc. 0" Liberalisation of MAY 12.1989 omers reo rep. of S. C. S. T. 24

[Sh Batkavi Bairagi] ganj): Because for the last 4 years, you did nothing and now you have started speaking par with the others. We have to bear the in the fifth yQar. brunt of our ancestor's atrocities . • Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to submit SHRI BALKAVI BAIAAGI: Sir, you as with all hs seriousness that I have seen those well as we are well aware of the fact that as days, han. Members of this House might not the who are the persons talking in the fifth aware of it, that during the regime of Holkar years. I would like to submit to my friend that in my State, underthe Jawa harijan may build I don't want to name anyone. All of you know a temple, but cannot instal an idol in it. If he that for the last 103 years, we have been could dare 10 install the deity in the temple fighting for it. Your life span is for five years built by him, he was prosecuted and pun­ only and you remain alive for quaf1er to five ished. I have seen this by my O'hn eyes and years only. In the last three months you members of Congress party had started t;ease to function. My friend, I don't want to movement against it and were jailed. What start this discussion. I would only like to an irony it is that a well could be dug with the request that we don't link elections with toil of a harijan, but he cannot use the water scheduled castes, minorities or muslims. I of that well. To such an extent, untouchability would like to ask how the opposition people was practised in our country. also got elected under the policy of reserva­ tion. In opposition also, there are members Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are discussing this belonging tn schedule castes or scheduled issue in the House under your chairmanship tf ibes or muslim comm unitips. They also get and tho leadership of Shri Rajlv Gandhi and elected under this reservation JXllicy. You trying to make tne country understand the sholjid mind it that if we have adopted strat­ seriousness of this mat1er. I would like to egy keeping elections in view, we would submit that 15 and 7.5 per cent reservations h:1ve done i~ otherwise. We would have have been provldad for the scheduled ca'Stes created condition in w,",ich even 2-3 other­ and scheduled tribes respectively. Th:5 res­ wise. We should havo created condition in ervation of 22 1/2 per cent is fulfilled In D which even 2-3 members who are otherwise class jobs only, but In A, B & C classes. this being seen here. have not come here. SO,Iet quota IS not fulfilled. I would like to thank Shri It be not linked with the elections. We realise Chiclambaram, Shri Rajiv Gandhi and his tho agony of the people every minute, every C;ov~rnment for the announcement to the time, every year and we bear with it. Mr. effect that the reservations will not be al­ Speaker Sir, I would like to make a request lowed to be lapsed tiil atl the reserved vacan­ to you. I would like to narrate my own expe­ cies are not fulfilled. Those posts will remain rience to rny friends belonging to scheduled vacant till qualified persons from these cate­ castes and scheduled tribes that the behav· gories are appotnte-d. This should be made lour of the officers, who get employment c:ear 1:1 the country. I was surprised to hear under reservation policy, with the people of yesterdC'y that some of the Members of this their own community is quile disappoin1ing. House who call themselves as progressive, The polic.e inspector belonging to SC/ST stated that this work in t>t?ing done kpepi"g communities posted in my constituency elections in viow. Sir If we do something for committed more atrocities on the persons the welfare of farmers, the opposition says belonging to scheduled castes and I have to that we are dOing It fo~ the benefit oi alec­ come for their rescue. A harijan give witness tion$ jf we take any steps for the welfare of against another harijan. t am not saying that tabourers, women, scheduled castes or they should not make efforts to stop crimes. schedulEld tribes, the cppo~illon links it witr Excesses on anyone shoutd be checked. the elections. But it is matter to be considered by them as what are their duties after getting promo· SHRt SYED SHAHABUODIN (Kishan- tions. Those who nave become self-depend .. 25 Disc. on Liberalisation of VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA)ordefS reo rep_ of S.C.S .. T. 2f ent shouki provide opportunity to others to to bearthebruntofthe right and wrong things oecome so. done by the opposition. The Congress Party is the only responsible party in the country. I would like to make yet another submis­ You know that only a responsible person feel Sion. May be, my this suggestion will be responsibilitv and accountability. No ac­ useful for you in future. I have no objectton. countability is expected from an irrespon­ If at present you take it as joke, but I would sible person. I don't raise finger against the like to submrt that many of my friends be­ people, but I can certainly raise fingers against longing to caste Hindu have got employment irresponsible parties. We run the democratic by showing themselves as scheduled castes system through political parties. These are and scheduled tribes. They have done a the persons who have not succeeded in crtme what punishments should be given to organising a political party even two months Ihem. If you will accept my suggestion, the before elections and If they are asked to tell country will be very happy. Those who h~h'O about their leader, they say that they are still taken employment on wrong certificates are deCiding. If asked about the venue of their forced to do the job of the caste of which they meetings, they would say that the meetings have produced the certificate for the penod are being held in Haryana House, now they lhey' remain In employment on the basis of do not refer to Karnataka House. Earlier It forged cer tlflcate. Suppose, they have got was held in Andhra House. What can you the Job by showing themselves as sweepers, expect from those, who are unable to decide tt1ey are a forc€d to work as sweepers. Then about their leader even SIX months before only they will understand the meanmg of the elections or unable to adopt a symbol for getting jobs by changing the caste. their party. I would like to submit that Shri RaJiv Gandhi was our leader, he is our leader My Speaker, Sir, eariier there was no and he Will be our leader In future also. I am casfe or class fragmef"tatlon In our country. saying i1 with full confidence. Let them tell the Castes were aSSIgned on the basIs of pro­ name of their leader, thetr party or their fessIon, but later on this system was d,s­ symbol. fhey have nothing to say and the tor1ed by the sOCID1y and such a system was whole country has to suffel .... (Interruptions). made In WhiCh, f.)Aople of some partlcul;u Those who have nothing to do, WIll link caste were s'JPpressed. We have to do th9 everythuig with elections. But the Congress penance for It. If we can do something for Party has not done anything out of elections {heir waif are by dOing It, we should not heSI­ compulsion. It IS our duty to fight the distor­ tate. We should not do It as charity measure. tion In our system brought about after the I would like to make yet another submission. VediC civilizatIon. We are the successors of DUring Janta regime, some of the members Gandhijl, Nehruji and Indtraji. Shri Chidam .. who are making hue and cry now were in barnm Will give the reptYt I am only making Congress Party then. We all know how that submission I am proud that it was Shri Saba Government came In1opower. but nowthese Saheb Ambedkar, who gave us the nght 10 people want to forget it and they are linking vote and who was one of the framers of the our steps wIth elections. Why should we take ConstItution of the country. We all know the steps keeping elections In view.? In 1980, community to which he belonged. It IS Shr; when the Congress Government came Into Shankaranand with whose signature the power agam, Shrimati Indira Gandhi ex­ voting right has been given to the youths of tended the reservation for another ten years 18 years of age. We have done it. It has not by bringing a Bill in the Lok Sabha, though been done through any other person. It has elections were already over. What did these been done 1hrough a person who comes people do at that time? We brought the Bill from the society for whose advancement we after the elections were over and we have have been struggling the day in and day out. won the elections. We felt that we should set I would request that this reservation policy undone the wrong which was done during should be allowed to continue and reserved Janta Government. The Congress Party has P05tS should be filled with the reserved cata· 27 Disc. on Liberalisstion of MAY 12,1989 olders reo rep. of s. c.S. T. 28

[Sh. Bafkavi Bairagij forst f would suggest that we should think how we can correct this national failure. In gory only, even though people of other cate­ the meantime, there is absolutely no option gories are available. It will a violation of the for the country but to prolong the regime of Constitution, if you will break your commit~ reservation by another decade. This has ment. Commitment is more valuable than again national support :ind that is why I feel life. We are committed and such people are that ~ should not be presented as a partisan often tested in the history. I would like to question. submit to all the hon. Members, political parties and the Government that it should Having said this, I would like to make a not be linked with election and votes. I am plea to the Governmentthatthere is ademand happy that you have listened to me seriously all over the country for a reVision of the lists and quietly. of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes The same tribes which are fragmented among [English] different States, enjoy reservation in one State but do not enjoy reservation in the SHRI SYED SHAHABUDDIN (Klshan­ other. That applies also to the same caste ganj): The reservation in public employment groups. This anomaly must be removed for the backward classes is a gift of the This contradiction f'Pust be removed. There­ Constitution and ha$ a national consensus fore, I would suggest that the Government behind It. should come up with a comprehen5ive revI­ sion of the Scheduled Castes and Sched­ [ Translation] uled Tribes Order and should try to update the liSt. BALKAVI BAIRAGI: ElectIOns were not held at the time whon the Constitution was CornIng to the questIOn before U&, on orepared. I am sorry. the QuestIon of backlog, from a purely sCien­ tifIC' POint of viev... wrthout opposing the pf tf)­ [English] clple behind it. I have to ask certalfl que~· tlons. If the backlogs are10 be accuf'TlUlatp.d SHRI SYED SHAHABUDDIN: The elec­ indefinitely and the experience shows that tion came as a result of the Constitution the:! vacancies earmarked for reservation are not filled every year, then, the question IS This principle of protective discnmlf1a­ how for shall wo go? After aft, one fme year, tion and affirmatIve action in favour of the eligible persons, qualified persons are not backward sections of society has a specIfIc gOing to drop from heaven. Statistics also object. The object is to raise the backward have a certain truth. Therefore, in the mean­ sed,ons to the average level of the society In time, when we keep the places vacant indefi­ due course. nltely, particularly in relat!on not so much to the case of general administration but par­ We have failed In this objective. We ticularly In relation to what I call the tQ(;tHllcal thought that ten years were adequatt?, we posts. Ithink~ Isgomgtogivenseto acertain found it was not. And nowwe are finding that injection of Inefftclency In the sY!item. For forty years were not adequate for the pur­ example. ij a certain number of posts of pose. In this view of the matter, I do ,10t medtcal doctors are kept vacant and the accept the statement of the han. MinIster vacancIes are accumulated over a period of that the mandate of articles 14 and 26 has tlmf!. then obviously the system of medical been fulfIlled. The mandate of articles 14 and delivery. the system of medical servir€ for 16 IS equality and not the perSIstence of the people IS going to suffer from the5e inQqualrty. The sub-sections which hA hat; constant vacancies. The amount of servIce perhaps tn mind. referto affirmative action in that we wish to provftj~ to the people, shall order to produce a regIme of equality. ThAre- not b(> providod In the mean time. ThprAfore. 29 DiSC. on Ll»rallsation 01 VAISAKHA 22. 1911 (SAKA)orders reo rep. of S.C.S. 1. SO

this indefinite accumulation will create its quota. As far as promotion is concernod, I own problems. My own solution would have have been in public service and I think, from been that at least insofar as the technical two angles, it has created problem. It has It posts are concerned, let us wait for two has created a lot of heast-burning in thG years. three years. The backlog can be car­ varions bureaucratic systems and cadres ried forward. But after three years, at any where you find that somebody who was given point of time, for not more than three working under you suddenly jumps and years. the available quota of reservation becomes your boss and this gives rise to should be accumulated. In the fourth year, certain frictions and certain tensions in the the first year's quota should be generalised. society. Sir, I have a feeling that from an .. Some such arrangement should be there so other angle, it is not equitable that the same that the level of the vacancies of the propor­ person, for example, who was admitted in tion of the vacancies does not produce this medical college on the reservation quota condition of inefficiency in the services th at I should also enjoy a second facility or having pointed out (Interruptions). entered the Government service under res­ ervation quota should enjoy the facility of THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE reservation a second time in his own life. MINISTRY OF PERSONNEL, PUBLIC After all he has been brought in line and he GRIEVANCES AND PENSIONS AND MIN­ has been given marching orders and then he ISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF should not expect somebody to back him up HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBA­ at every level, at every post. Therefore, even RAM): You are saying generalised. Are you in principle I see something unwise in reser­ saying these should be de-reserved? vation in promotion In giving the facility of benefit or reservation to the same individual SHRI SVED SHAHABUDDIN: After more than once or twice in his own life·time. three years. At every stage he gets support. Why? Once he has been brought to the level of the rest SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: No, we have of hiS pens. he has got to march ahead in his oanned reservation own. Yes, I know the answer. The answer is that our backward friends, our reservation SHRISYEDSHAHABUDDIN: You must quota friends feel that the reporting system is give the rationale. That is what I am saying. not fair to them. The minister has introdtaC8 I am with you in principle and yet I may point a scientific method, he has got to adopt a out to you a certain difficulty and you should sCientific method to see to it that the report­ give a rational answer to that. The same Ing system IS fair to all concerned and is as thing applieS to technical posts. We have objective as possible. That is the matter for certain facilities for technical training. As­ the hon. Minister to look into. suming thatthey are kQpt vacant, then it is an under-utilisation of the system that we have Similarly, Sir, this brings another point. created at great national cost. Why should it I find that the reservation benefit is being be kept unutiJised or under-utilised? Under­ limited to a few families. For exampfe, if a utilisation. amounts to national waste and, Hanjan bQcomes as lAS officer, then why therefore, there also there has to be some should his son be entitled to the benefit of rational answer to this question that If we reservation? I see no reason at all, abso­ create certain facilities for industrial or tech­ lutely no justice, no equity in this and it is not nical training or technological training at a , only unfair to the society, it is unfair to the rngh cost. every seat oosts so much and the other members of the Harijan community_ J unit cost we have got 10 keep in mind while would like the benefit of tt 18 reservation to be :onsidering whether the persons with a lS widely diffused in the society as possible. minimum qualification, absolutely minimum Let other families take advantage of it. Let qualification, are available or not available at another group of people take advantage of it a given point of time to fill up the reservation from the same milieu, from the same sub- 31 Disc. on Ub.ralisation of MAY 12,1989 orders r8. rep. of S. c. s. T. 32

ISh. Syed Shahabuddin] pressed since ages and have for fang carried the stigma of being outcastes. They have society. I would not mind. But I woutd cer­ been encouraged socially, economically, tainly very much mind why the benefit of educationally and also politically. In this reservation should remain limited to the same connection, I would like to submit that the family. Congress party has been committed to the upliftment of these classes and from the very Sir, finally, I would plead at this point of outset, provi:>ions were made for their wel­ time, very briefly, that some thought shouJd fare in the constitution after it formed the be given to the question of universalisation Government of independent India. All pos­ of reservation. There are backward sections sible radical measures have been taken in every community. Are there backward during the last 40-42 years and of which Harijans? Are there backward Muslims? reservation of posts and services in the There are backward people in every com­ Central Government constitutes a small part munity. Why can't we think of a system of This policy applies to the State Services as universalisation of reservation but subject to well. In this context. Shri Chidarnbaram a uniform econom ic criterion so that the deserves to be congratulated for his state­ benefit of reservation in any community ment on behalf of the Government regarding applies only to the economically, socially the proposed liberalisation to be made shortly and educationally backward sections of that for th~ welfare of the scheduled castes and group? With these words, I generally sup­ scheduled tribes. port the proposal of the Government. It is good as far as it goes, but it raises certain 12.01 hrs. very basic questions and I would like the hon. Minister to apply his mind to the ques­ [MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chai~ tions that I have raised. Thank you. But how far slich liberalisation will take [ Trans/ation] place in what we are anxious to know. I would like to submit that the position of the SHRI RAM RATAN RAM (Hajipur): Mr. harijans have improved much during these Speaker, Sir. I would first like to thank Shri 40 years of the Congress Rule. An harijans Chidambaram for his statement on the 19th in not discriminated against in any public April, '989. transport system, educational institution etc. He is not told to get off a train if he happens [English] to be travelling by it or to leave a hotel or an educational institutions if he happens to be "regarding liberalisation of orders with a eating or studying there. Major social changes view to improving the representation of have been brought underthe Congress Rule. scheduled castes and scheduled tribes The Congress Government deserves to be communities in Central Government Post! congratulated for it. So far as reservations Services" are concerned, the subject under discussion at the moment, I would like to draw your [ Translation] attention to it. At the same time, I welcome the statement of Shri Chidambaram and and I would like to submit with regard to the urge upon him 10 make efforts to enhance discussion taking place here in that connec­ the existing quota of reservation of 15 per tion that while keeping in view the contention cent in the case of scheduled castes. and 71! of Shri Syed Shahabuddin and other hen. 2 per cent in the case of scheduled tribes in M.-.mbtrs of the C,:>pOsition. that the Con­ the Central Government services. This has gress Government have provided consider­ been proposed in view of the increase in able encouragement to the scheduled castes population. As such reservations are made and scheduled tribes who have been sup· on population basis. therefore, they should 33 Disc. on Liberalisation of VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA)orders ref rep. of S.C.S. T. 34

be enhanced on account of increase in the 16th candidate was a ScheduJed Caste. population which can be verified from the 1st That is why the panel was closed aftar the census report. But it has also to be kept in inclusion of the 15th person. Moreover. as mind as Shri Shahabuddin has suggested there were no Scheduled Caste or Sched· just now that one member of every backward uled Tribe candidates among the first 15, so family should be entitled to avail of reserva­ that panel consisted of 15 candidates who tion in the matter of appointments but the were to be promoted as Directors eventually same should not apply in the case of promo­ and the 16th candidate was denied this post tions. I would have welcome his point of view because he belonged to the scheduled caste. had there been a change in the attitude of This sort of attitude must be removed. I society. Unless there is a change in the would like to request Shri Chidambaram. attItudes 01 people occupying senior posi­ that efforts should be made to enlarge the tIons in the country and they realise that panel drawn up recently so that more names everyone is equal, the suggestions made by could be included. If the administrative au .. Shri Shahabuddin cannot be practicable. thorities display such attitudes while drawing Because, despite the provision of reserva­ up the panel, it will not be possible for the tIon made in the constitution, a lot of heart­ officials of the Government to do justice to burning is created at the promotions level in the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. the Central Services, although the situation. So far as promotions are concerned, I agreQ IS not the same at the time of fresh appoint­ with Shrj Shahabuddin on the point that ments and appointments are made in the there is a lot of heart·burning at the promo­ reserved category as per rules. Whatever tion level. When one finds that somebody ourfriends in the Opposition have subm itted who has been working under you, suddenly IS all right. But they have also said that supercedes and becomes your boss. it political, economic and social backwardness obviously creates resentment. Therefore, it should be made the criteria for reserving is proposed that the constitutional provision posts in the Government. The drawing up of of reservation should be withdrawn and merit the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes should be made the universal criteria. how­ Irst has been made on the basis of social and ever, before doing away with it, do we not economic backwardness. Perhaps they have have ensure that we have an equal society? forgotten to mentIon this point. In connection In view of the existing socia-economic dis­ with the economic backwardness and facil;­ parities, th,s proviSion cannot be withdrawn ties provided to them, I would like to submit and it will have to remain till inequalities that there are other classes of people as well prevail in our society. Until equality is guar­ who suffer from social and economic back­ anteed in the country, the reservation sys­ wardness and are discriminated against but tem shall have to continue. It can be changed these facilities are not availabletothem. The only when due social awareness is created practise of untouchability has been abol In this regard and the people are motivated Ished by law, still we can observe in our to launch a mass struggle against the exist­ villages that such attitudes have not been ing disparities in society. changed. In order to remove such attitudes, there should be a uniform law in the country. The issue of backward classes has beer It should be applicable to each and every raised. The Mandai Commission's recom­ citizen of the country. and only then it can be mendations have been mentioned in this a welcome step. I would like to draw th€ connection but which are lying in coin stor­ attention of Shri Chidambaram to the recent age at present. There ara saveral groups case pertaining to the upgradation of a Central among the backward classes who are worse Government post. The post of thtf Deputy off than even harijans. If reservations cannot Secretary was to be upgraded to that of a be made for them in the political sphere, it Director and accordinQly suitable people were should be made for them in the services and to be appointed in that position. A panel of in admissions to different educational institu­ only 15 candidates was drawn up because tions. It is not proper to suggest that if a 35 Di.9C. on LiberalisatlOn of MA Y 12. 1989 orders reo rep. of S.C.S. T. 38

[Sh. Ram Ratan Ram] safeguard against the violation of rules it this regard. person belonging to these groups gets admission in the reserved quota, he shall not So far as the question of writing Cmfi· I be eligible for similar privilege while applying dential Reports is concemed, the hon. arm­ for Government service. Until such privilege isters also used to write them earlier, which is guaranteed in the services, not a single they may have forgotten harijan or adivasi will be recruited in the post now ... (lnterruptions) .. .I would Ike to subm~ of a doctor, engineer, I.A.S. or I.P.S. Keep­ in this matterthaf until C.R. entries are made ing in view the existing attitudes of the soci­ with due strictness. there will be no fear in ety, nthe Government taken steps in this their mind. Until powers are given to the direction, then we would knows as to how far court to taken deterrent action in such cases, they are earnest in what they have said. The they will not be afraid of it. By merely giving condition of harijans and adivasis is very them relaxation will not do. Inspite of reser­ different from the rest of the society. Some vations which have been made for the Sched­ people have perverted attItude. It is not proper uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, they to speak of quality under such circumstances. have not been able to get rid of their appre­ And we will continue to hold this view until hensions completely. It is a matter of satis­ these depressed classes are uplifted from faction that liberalisation has been made in both the social and economic point of view. the qualifying marks for admissions etc. and The people of this country would charge that the decision taken to stop dereservation in disparities prevailtn the country which ought filling up vacancies ofTechnical nature whale to be removed and the Congress is commit­ not many su~able candidates are available ted to remove them. The hon. Members but I would like to draw your attention tr the belonging to my party have said so rightly. Civil Services and judiciary where the provi­ The Opposition parties got the opportunity to sion for reservation does not apply. Hreser­ set things right for three long years. But they vation does not exist at the level of the did not make any efforts at any stage to take judiciary, how can we except the weaker some measures for the welfare of the Sched­ sections to get justice. Judiciary is in the uled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and other hands of those very people who have not backward classes. The people expressed changed their attitudes and have exploited their faith in them but as soon as they came them and treated them unfairly. The scales to power they forgot all about it and began of justice are in their hands with the result mutual bickerings for portfolios with the re­ that cases remain pending for years and sult that they lost the confidence of the justice is not available to the weaker sec­ people why they had won. Now, the same tions. of society. Therefore, it is essential to people pose themselves as their well-Wish­ do something in this regard. ers. This kind of double policy Will not do. If issues pertaining to the people are to be Alongwith it. I would like to make one or raised, their welfare should be the primary two points more. Although the issoe of rev~ concern and if you talk of politiCS and poli­ sian of lists is not related with the subjeCt cies, then you should discuss them explic­ under discussion, still as ~ is connected with itly. Mere fruitless talking without having any the welfare of the Scheduled Castes and definite policy will not do. So far as the Scheduled Tribes. I would like to raise ~. question of liberaltsatlon of reservation and There are many such eJigible groups in the its extension is concerned, the Government country who have not been included in the deserves to be congratulated. As regards schedule and which should be done. The the decision not to resort to de-reservation, Kurmi tribe of Chotta Nagpur is one s~ and that de reservation will not take place example. This tribe was inducted in list t.D until all reserved vacancies are filled is also 1921 but which has since bean wlhdraw· praiseworthy. But at the same time, a Cen­ Their position should be restored so thai tral Act should be enacted to provide a legal they can get the opportunity to corne up. 37 Disc. on Lberalisation of VAISAKHA 22. 1911 (SAKA)orders reo rep. of S.C.S. T. 38

Wrth these words, I thank you. dereservation is put here, how far and how long are we going to have ban on dereserva­ [English] tion? The ban on dereservatlOn creates a very bad feeling among the people Instead SHRI O.B. PATIL (Kolaba): Mr. Deputy­ of puttIng a ban on dereservation, I would Speaker, Sir. this is one of the rare occa­ urge the Government to see that there is no sions in which the Opposition is in a position backlog at all in the Services. That means to welcome the steps taken by the Govern­ there will have to be special efforts on the ment. I am glad that the Government had part of the Governm ent that whatever oppor­ taken a decision to put a ban on dereserva­ tunities are made available to Scheduled tion. Castes and Scheduled Tribes they should be made available In the initial stages only While wetcoming this step, I would re­ when recruitment is made. quest the Government to go to the root cause of the situation which has compelled This stage can be reached If only all the Government to take this decision. It is a educational facilities are provided to the common experience that though there are Scheduled Castes and Scheduled T ribas. reservations earmarked for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, some reser­ Again I would refer to the report of the vations are not being filled, some seats re­ Commissioner for Scheduled Castes and served for Scheduled Castes and Sched­ Scheduled Tribes. It has been stated on uled Tribes are not filled because of certaIn p.4S3. attitude of the appointing authornies, admin­ istrative authorities. liOn 1-1-87 the reservation of the Sched~ uled Tribes in the Services is: I want to quote from the report of the Commissioner for Scheduled Castes and Class I 2.5 Scheduled Tribes for 1986-87 in which a very important observation has been made Class III 1.92 on p.39:- Class III 4.23 II0ne of the regrettable aspeds of Im­ plementation of the policy of positive Class IV 5.84". discrimination is that it is generally accepted in a formal way without much As far as Scheduled Castes are con­ regard for the spirit behind it. The result cerned, even Class III are not fully repre­ is that even innocuous technical points sented. Class A and Band C are repre­ can be used to deny the rightful due to sented on a very low scale. members of the Scheduled Castes and

Scheduled Tribes. Of I would like to know from the hon. Min­ ister within how much time the reservation The Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribes that has been made for the Scheduled Tribes people are denied the rightful place due to and Scheduled Castes would be fully met. themselves. Why should it happen? This IS Certain time·limit should be laid down. Until happening, :,,01 particularJy for the last 40 the time-limit ;s laid down, it will be going on years but since reservation has been made like this and there wilt be ill-feeling among in the Constitution. The backlog has been the people. People will say UWhy are you created only because the facUities which denying that opportunity to them for whom ought to have been made available to the there is no reservation?" But, taking into Scheduled Castes and Scheduled tribes in consideration that reservaIion has been made education are not being provided 10r. The for the particular populatIon, who have suf­ present position is even though the ban on fered since tong not only hundreds of years 39 Disc. on Liberalisation of MAY 12, 1989 orders f'9. rep. of S.C.S. T. 40

(Sh. o.B. Patil) power, at least the matter was diSCUSSed In I this House sometime for the purpose of but thousands of years, we have nothing to implementation of those recommendations. grudge against them. On the contrary, we Committees and Sub-Committees were should welcome it. appointed at the level of the Minister, at the level of the Secretary. But that was done at It is stated that Government has, to a the time of Mrs. Indira Gandhi. But now large exlent, fulfilled the mandate of Article under the Prime Ministership of Shri Rajiv 16. I have quoted the representation of the Gandhi nothing has been said and discussed Scheduled Tribes in the services. This indi­ about the Mandai Commission's Report and cates clearly that what the Government has recommendations. That Report has been said is not correct. kept in the cold storage. So, I would like to take this opportunity to urge upon the Gov­ I would like to draw the attention of the ernment that white It is providing for special Government to another point. Article 16 facilities for Scheduled Castes and Sched­ requires that special protection should be uled Tribes, it should see that those provI­ given to those who are educationally and sions are properly implemented. I WOUld socially backward. Scheduled Caste and further request that the Mandai Commission Scheduled Tribe people are getting protec­ Report should be taken into consideration tion under the Constitution. This Article 16 and Its recommendations should be accepted Sub-<:Iause (4) provides for protection to be and implemented. given to the backward people. For that pur­ pose, Kaka Kalelkar Commission was ap­ pointed, But the recommendations of that SHRI P .K. THUNGON (Arunachal Commission were not implemented. There­ West): Sir. I congratulate the hon. Minister after, the Mandai Commission was appointed. for making the statement on 19th April, 1989, The Mandai Commission has stated that the regarding liberalisation of orders with a view other Backward Communities which are to improving the representation of Sched­ socially and educational backward consti­ uled castes and Schedule Tribes Communi­ tute 52 per cent of the population. I would ties in Central Government Posts/Services. also request the Government that it must provide protection for the Scheduled Castes Str, at the outset, I would like to request and Scheduled Tribes people who constitute the Government. through you, not to be 22 1/2 per cent of the population. The Man­ deterred by certain sections of the people dai Commission has stated that the Back­ and certain forces which are against reser­ ward Class constitute 52 per cent of the vation for the downtrodden people belong­ population. The Constitution has provided ing to Scheduled Castes and Scheduled certain provisions for the socially and educa­ Tribes Communities, for the uplift of socially tionally backward people and those provi­ and educationally backward people. This sions should be implemented. Their inter­ august House is aware that there are certain ests should be protected. In this connection. forces in our country to destabilise the unity I have to point out that though some special and integrity of this country. There are forces provisions have been provided under the which take advantage of all kinds of bicker­ Constitution. they are not being implemented. ings in our society and the slight difference I would like to draw the attention of the not only to destabilise the Government but Government that 52 per cent of the popula­ also to destablises the whole country and tion has been denied the rights which it was thus knowingly or unknowingly they get entitled to. They are socially and education­ themselves involved in such acts become ally backward people. The Mandai Commis­ tools of those people who cannot see India sion report has been submitted in the year as a united, strong and progressive nation. 1980. Since then, white the then Prime Therefore, I urge upon the Government not Minister Smt. Indira Gandhi was thera in 10 vield to those forces which are against the 41 Disc. on Liberalisation of VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA)orders r8. rep. of S.C.S. T. 42

Interests of this country. Why I am saying this from jaundice because one who suffers from is, as you are aware, in Gujarat, there were jaundice sees everything yellow. About thiS processions and demonstrations against sta1ement of the Prime Minister also they reservations. This is against the provisions have said that it is a political announcement. of the Constitution. That is an anti"national And when the Prime Minister has announcad act. That is anti-const~ution. These are cer­ giving constitutional status to Panchayati­ tain prognostications and signs where people raj, that also they say is politically motivated. are trying to thwart the Constitutional provi­ I would like to say that they keep on opposing sions to protect the interests of the Sched­ just for the sake of opposition. The people of uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes people. this country are not fools. They are not going These are the reasons why the ugly heads of to gain out of this. Therefor€?, I would request destabilisation, ugly heads of rebellion, are them at least to support the genuine cause of rising in some tribal areas like Jharkhand Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes and other places, Therefore, I would like to who have bean suffering for thousands of caution ourfriend Mr. Shahabuddin when he years. asks why a Scheduled Caste or Schedulod Tribe man should keep on getting repeated I have afewsuggestions to make. About facilities in his own lIfe. For thousands of the reservation, I would like to suggest a years, such facilities were taken by certain time-bound programme. Whatever has not communities in this country right from the been filled up. should be filled up within a Vedic period. Forty years is nothing in com­ time-bound framework, parison to thousands of years. Therefore, I would like to urge on my learned friend Mr. About the relaxation of percentage in Shahabuddin not to bring out such things selection, there is a provision of five percent which will stir up in the society where we reduction for Scheduled Castes and Sched­ have already enough problems. uled Tribes studen!s in many cases. At times. it is interpreted as reduction of five marks, for India is a country where we have so example, at the time of admission to IITs or many communities. so many languages and in medical colleges. so many traditions. Some traditions are set up by the people themselves in course of This should be 5% reduction. In that time. But some traditions are settled through way we will be getting more number of SC certain action of the Government. It may be and 5T students. a democratic Government or it may be a monarchical Government or whatever form Since I have no tima, I will put my last of Government. Certain traditions are set up poInt which is very important. We have been in the society through the actions of Govern­ talking about the revision of the list of SC and ment. This is why. our founding fathers of ST. My friends have already said about this constitution also considered this problem and I only want to add that for the last about and provided for this reservation. seven years we have been talking about giving tribal status 10 the people of ladakh; I welcome the statement of the han. but the matter had not materialised so far. prime Minister for extension of the constitutional provisions for the next ten I am told that a survey was conducted years. I think, by this statement, our Prime there and the statutory requirements have Mintr~ter has given a hope to the down· been fulfilled. Even after that, the Govern­ trodden people of this country who were ment has sent back again to the Government thinking they might miss this in the near of Jammu and Kashmtr for coO$ultation. future. Ten years of renewal of this Once the statutory provisions are fulfilled. constitutional provision is going to be com­ there is no need of watting for thatr reply on pleted by the end of this year. There are consultation. Straightway the Government people in the opposition who. I think, suffar should declare Ladakh;s as Scheduled 43 Disc. on LberaHsation of MAY 12, 1989 orders r9. rep. of S.C.S. T. 44

[Sh. P.K. Thungon] You make such statements only during the elections. Everyone knows that this is merely Tnbes. I am told that in 1983 the present an election gimmick that the Government is Chief Minister, who was the Chief Minister at doing something for the wenare of the har­ that time also. Dr. Farooq Abdullah, himself ijans. How can justice be possible when the had written that all those oommunities who protector himself becomes the predator. are residing in Ladakh should be declared as The Government passed a number of laws Scheduled Tribes because of the remote­ VIZ., the Land Ceiling Act and proposed to ness of the area and the probtems of La­ distribute land among the poor and the dakh. I request that this should be consid­ weaker sections. Did the Government im­ ered favourably. plement this honestly? Is it not an eye-waSh? The Government cannot do anything against [ Translation1 the erstwhile landlords because some of them are members of Parliament? I would SHRI RAMASHRA Y PRASAD SINGH like to ask as to who is responsible for the (Jahanabad): Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, I demolition of the 200 harijan houses in heartily support tho debate regarding the Bhagalpur on the 6th of this month. The hon. reservation and promotion forthe scheduled Minister of Home Affairs should conduct an castes and scheduled tribes in Government enquiry in the Sunwarsa area. Everybody is services which is in progress in the House. I agitating in the Sumkulha village but only the am doing this because my party has always communist Party people are being arrested been espousing the cause of the oppressed because they opposed this action. Where and the weaker sections. have aU those people gone who used to advocate the cause of the harijans and adi­ Wo had tho opportunity of listening to a vasis and made tall claims. Rights can not be numberof points. The Government has even begged for, one has to fight for them. There­ been congratulated. However, I would liketo fore, the youth belonging to the weaker put a few questions. In the matter of reserva­ sections have blown the bugle of agitation tions. even after 42 years the Government for getting their fights and now the Govern­ still expresses its inability on the plea that ment is facing problem. What steps has the suitable persons are not available to fill the Government taken for the welfare of the vacancies. But for class IV category they are adivasis. Honestly, tell us who has got all always available. What is the percentage of their lands which they possessed even during the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled the times of Britishers. Who is the landlord Tribes in the class IV employees who have these days? It is your own people who are in been appointed? A number of workers In possession of all the land and you can not class filth category are educated. They are raise your finger at them. you can only de­ capable of being appointed as clerks, but ceive people but this is not going to continue they are doing the scavanging work. Yet the for long. Today if the adivasi youth is doing Government daims that every possible step something or raising his voice the Govern­ is being taken for the upliftment of the ment says that he is drifting away from the weaker sections and the harijans. Who stops national mainstream. How long can be sur­ you from appointing them as clerks? You are vive in this mainstream as a beast? I would only misleading the people. like to ask whether we, the poor people are not human beings? What steps has the The Government had misled the masses Government taken for their welfare in all in 1971 also by its slogan of garibi hatao. these years? Had the Adivasis not changed This slogan was raised throughout the coun­ their religion, they would not have got jobs in try but poverty was not eradicated. This is Government Offices. The adivasi men and 1989 and not 1971. 18 years have passed women have got high posts after being and the child born in that year is today a converted as Christians. What has the youth of 18. He has understood your trick. Government done for them. I would like to 45 Disc. on Liberalisation of VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA}orders reo rep. of S.C.S. T. 46 say that stop this deception. tf the Govern­ percentages of posts are boing reserved for ment IS keen in thgirwelfare, only harijan and Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe's in adivasis should be recruited in the class III some category of services. According to the vacancies so that they may at least get their earlier practice the posts earmarked for rights. With their words, I conclude. Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribe candidates were being dereserved when ·SHRI HARIHAR SOREN (Keonjhar): I suitable candidates were not available from rise to speak a few words in support of the among those communities. As you know, statement made by Shri Chidambaram. Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe Hon'ble Minister of State in the Ministry of communities are backward. qualified candi­ Personnel, Public Grievances and Pensions dates are always not available in these in the House on the 19th April. 1989 regard­ communities. As a result of that Scheduled ing liberalisation of orders with a view to Castes and Scheduled Tribe candidates do improving the representation of Scheduled not turn up for interviews. In those cases the Castes and Scheduled Tribes Communities employers keep the post vacant for a certain in Central Government Posts/Services. We period and then they fill up the vacancies by have been discussing the statement made general candidates. But in many cases we by the Ministerfor last two days. Many Han 'ble find some thing different. The employers Members have expressed their views on the even fill up the vacancies by g6neral candi­ steps taken by the Government to protect dates at the first interview itself when they the interest of Scheduled Castes and Schad- find that Scheduled Castes and Scheduled uled Tribes by providing them reservation Tribe candidates have not turned up. In facilities. I would also like to express my some cases some employers even disqual­ views on that subject. At the outset, I would ify the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled like to extend my thanks to Shri Chidamba­ Tribe candidates and inform the Govern· ram for making the statement in the House. ment that the posts earmarked for Sched­ Sir, the entire House is aware of the fact that uled Caste and Scheduled Tribe c,andidates the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes are being filled up by general candidates are lagging far behind other communities. due to the non availability of suitable candi­ The Scheduled Tribes are more backward dates from Soheduled Caste and Scheduled than the Scheduled Castes communities. Tribe communities. However the situation The reasons for their backwardness are WIll not remain like that after this announce­ known to everybody. The Members who ment made by tho Hon'ble Minister. The preceded me have already pointed out the dereservation system IS going to be bannad. reasons of the backwardness of Scheduled The posts earmarked for Scheduled Castes Castes and Scheduled Tribes. I do not want and Scheduled Tribe candIdates will be kept to take much time of the House by repeating in reserve. So, the Scheduled Castes and those points. As the time at my disposal is scheduled Tribe candidates will get justice.l very short, I would only like to concentrate would like to thank the Minister for making my speech on the statement made by the the statement In ths regard. More and More Minister. However, I would like to highlight number of SchedulGd Caste and Scheduled certain problems of Scheduled Castes and Tribe candidates will now get employment. Scheduled Tribes in the matter of employ­ But, the proble", will not be solved only by ment. I would also like to give some sugges­ making the reservation. We will have to pay tions to the Government In that regard and more attention on making them qualified and would like them to be implemented so that suitable for those jobs. For that, J would like the Scheduled Tribe candidates will get due to stress upon the point of providing educa­ protection. tion facilities to the Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe students. Necessary assis· Sir, the Constitution of India has given tance should be extended to them right from certain rights and privileges to the Sched- the primary school up to higher institutions uted Caste and Scheduled Tribe. Certain so that they will be able to com'?.~te their *Translation of the speech originally delivered in Oriya. 47 Disc. on Liberalisation of MAY 12, 1989 orders reo rep. of S.C.S. T. 48

(Sh. Harihar Soren] should be kept free from politics. Sir, our Government has realised the genuine prob· education. You know the environment in lem of Scheduled Caste and Scheduled which Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe Tribe communities. I thank the Government students get education. It is not possible for for making sincere efforts for the socia-eco­ them to continue their education in that nomic development of these down trodden environment. Therefore there is a need to communities. I request to the Minister to provide adequate hostel facilities for them in continue the efforts made in that direction. schools, colleges and Universities. Sir, in his statement the Minister has said about im­ Lastly, I thank you very much for giving proving representation of Scheduled Caste me the opportunity to speak and conclude and Scheduled Tribe communities in the my speech. Central Governments posts/services. But. I would like to request the Minister for making SHRI BAPULAL MALVIYA (Shajapur): provision of reservations for Scheduled Caste Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, a discussion is in and Scheduled Tribe candidates in priVate progress regarding the reservation and pro­ sector too. If we do not raise the economic motion of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled status of those communities, they cannot Tribes in Government Services under Rule provide education to their children. Without 193. My submission is that this should cer­ proper education, how can they get the jobs tainly be made. Chanakya had formulated reserved fro them? Therefore, I would like to two policies. One was called Chanakya Nit; give a few suggestions as to how we can and the other was Chanakya sutra, Le. strengthen the economic condition of Sched­ administrative machinery. If the administra­ uled Castes ar'ld Scheduled Tribes. tive machinery is good, the admintstration will also function smoothly.We observe that Sir. the Scheduled Caste and Sched­ in the administratIve machinery, while some uled Tribe communities mostly live in vil­ people are quite good, others are not. There lages. Agriculture and small scale Indus.try are some bureaucrats who weaken the are their main vocation. Some of them are administration. My suggestion is that the small and marginalfarmers. Rest work inthe administration should find out the depart­ fields. They are employed as agricultural ments where reservation has not been done workers by the big landlords. The Govern­ according to the laid down provisions or has ment have adopted land reforms measures. not been fully done in respect of promotions. But the landless Scheduled Caste and Sched­ This will enable the Scheduled Casta and uled Tribe workers could not get sufficient Scheduled Tribe candidates to be benefit­ land. So, I urge upon the Government to red. The Government has appointed an S.C. provide more and more cultivable lands to S.T. Commissioner and a Commission also. Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes so Their function is only to prepare the reports. that they will be able to earn their livelihood For the fulfilment of reservation. at least one from agricu~ure. cell should be constituted in the Commis­ sion or in the Commissioner's office which Sir, it is unfortunate that any step taken should ensure whether the SC/ST reserva­ by the Government for the upliftment of tion has been filled in every department or Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe is not. If it has not been filled, the department being politicised by the opposition. They should be held responsible for it and action have been linked with election. As a result of ~hould be taken against them. It should be that the real development of Scheduled their responsibility to fulfil the purpose for Castes and Schedule Tribes are not being which is has been constituted. I feel that if paid proper attention by the Government this is done, we can be successful in this officials. Therefore I would like to appeal field. I have observed that a pre--condition every section of the House that Scheduled has been imposed for the Scheduled Caste Castes and Scheduled Tribes problems and Scheduled Tribe candidates who take 49 Disc. on Libsraiisation of VAISAKHA 22. 1911 (SAKA)order3 reo rep, of S.C.S. T. 50 admission in the coaching centres for ap­ marketing division WIth name of posts. in th~ pearing in the examinations for various finance division with name o~ posts, and in posts of U.P.S.C. and I.A.S. and I.P.S. Only the personnel and administrative division those candidates get admission to these with name of poSfS) anci their yoar-wlse coaching centrt!s whose family income is br~ak-up since 1973-74, it will become very less than Rs. one thousand. Today. even a clear since how long this backlog is continu­ petty peon in the Central Government earns ing. The posts reserved for the harijan and As. 1500 per month. Similarly, a clerk earns adivasis are lying vacant. Although the han. between As. 2000 and As. 25000 per month. Minister give orde~5 but i1 had no impact and How can their children be adm itted in these instead they are bping vloiated. My submis­ coaching centres? Therefore, my submis­ sion IS that action should be taken against sion is that the Government should remove the person re5ponsibl~ for thiS, after holding this restriction and arrange to give admis­ investigation. Wf:J find tI':=it Congress is the sion to the all children of S.C.S.Ts in these only Party in our country which is busy in coaching centres. Then only Will we get taking steps for the upliftment of the harijans candidates from the harijan and adivasi and adivnsis in the post-Independent era. categories in the required number for the The Intentions of our han. Pri",e Minis1er and Government services. At present due 10 the Ministers cue v~ry good and the Ideolt'l9Y of limit of As. one thousand. seats in those the Congress ieaders and other ofticials centres remain vacant and students in the towards these people is also good. How­ required number are not available. The ever, we find thot such a fAoling IS mi5tsing in Government spends As. 3.5 cror~ on these our bureaucrats. Therefore. my subr.1ission centres and Rs. 2.66 crore otherwi~e also, is that the Government 5nould implam~;mt but this expenditure simply goes waste. strictly Its polley and makp. slJch an arrange­ TherAfore. my submission is that the Gov­ ment so that t;,e b('Jcklog may be fil!ed ernment should arrange to remove this limit everywhere. Ther~ 15 resentment today of Rs. one thousand at the earliest. because no atlcntlC'H'j IS paid to fill!ng the reserved vacancies. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have al;o observed that a backlog of reserved quota has been continuing in the State Bank of SHRI V. TULSIRAM (Nagarkurnool): India since a long time. No spAcial efforts are Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I feel that we ar9 being made for fiiling them up. There is a discussing an important matter in the House backlog in every category. The posts which today. but the W2Y It IS bemg tr9a1ed, is 5hould have been filled by the harijans clnd SImilar to V

(EngNsh] MR. SPEAKER: All right. We will skip over the lunch hour. MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There are 544 Members; if everybody wants to speak, [ Translation] how can ~ou finish? SHRI A.P. SUMAN (Akbarpur): Mr. [ Translation] Deputy Speaker, Sir, on such aJ" important i~sue only hal~ an hour was allottod yester­ SHAI V. TULSIRAM: Please extend day. The other day also, only half an hour the time was allotted. Is this time sufficient for an important subject like this? Therefore, I also [English] request for axtension of time if need be.

SHRI PRATf,P BHANU SHARMA SHRI V. TULSIRAM: Mr. Deputy IVidisha): It is an important subject. Time Speaker, Sir, Shri Chidambaram is a young can be extanded so that every body car. Minister and works very enthusiastically. I speak on this. hope he will take «3pecial interest in it and will prove his worth. Though some hon. Mem· MR. DEPUTY·SPEAKER: Upto whal bers of hIe; patty speak otherwise, yet I do not time? If you are interested, we can sit after 6 think he and the other two hon. Ministers are O'clock to discuss this. Mr. Speaker has if' any way against the scheduled castes. already announced that the other two dIs­ ThiS is the allegation of the hon. Members cussions u'lder Rule 193 will be taken up at belonging to his own party but I do not agree 2 O'cfock and 4 O'clock. We can sit bey'ond wIth them. 6 O'clock and In that case all of you she u!d be here. SHRI P. NAMGYAL: You name those hon Members Nobody from our party' makes SHRI V. TULSIRAM' As you like, S:r. slich allegatIons.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE SHRI V. TULSIRAM: I hope, Shri Chi­ MINISTRY OF SURFACE OE.=PARTMENT dambaram will take interest in It and will use AND DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE MINIS­ hIs expertise in achieving something tan~ TRY OF PARLIAMENT AFFA!RS (SHRI P 91ble. So far as the reservation is concerned NAMGYAL): If we can sit through lunch time some!imes the candidates are called for and the reDly can b~ finished by 2 O'clock, it Int f3rview but sometimes even interviews are is all right. not conducted for the posts not~ied as reserved. After interviews, sometimes the THE MINISTER OF STA fE IN THf candidates art declared unsuitable but more MINISiRY OF PERSONAL , PUBLIC otten then not they show that the candidates GRlfVANCES AND PENSIONS AND MlN~ are not available. A few worc:is are written on ISlER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF the fIle purportedly for converting the re­ HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHID.~MBA~ served posts ir.l0 the general posts. This RAM): I request that the lunch hour rndY be thing IS repeated three-four times as the waived and you may call as m3r.y Members offlcidls authorised to write yes or no are th~ aspo~sible as long as I amgiven 15 minutes same. After this, the reserved posts are (() speak before 2 0'c10ck ~onverted into general posts and the Sched­ uled Castes and Scheduled Tnbes are de­ prived of the sam~. This is the reason why SHRI P. NAMGYAL: I request that thE the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Members may be bried so thdt we cOuld Tribes fail to get selected for the prestigious ccver as many merr.bers as possible. Reply pos~s. A sort of ring is operating which can be at 1.45 p.m. manipuJates right from t"e b9Qmnin~:t 53 Disc. on Liberalisation of VAISAKHA 22. 1911 (SAKA)orders 1'8. rep. of S.C.S. T. 54

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I request the Castes are prevented from joining the senior han. Minister to go into the depth of the issue posts. last time also, I emphasised the need because whatever I have said is fadually for doing somethingforthe Scheduled Castes correct. 00 not take it lightly only because an and the Scheduted Tribes, on th«t basis of hon. Member from the opposition is making their in the total population of the oountry. H such remarks. The hon. Members from the a child commits mistake. his parents can be ruling party also make similar statements. informed about it, but if the parents commit mistake, then whom to report? Just c.alculate Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the people the perr.entage of the SC and ST in the Union who manage to get the Certificate to the Cabinet. After my speech. one was appointed effect that they belong to the Scheduled Governor and another was appointed a Caste and Scheduled Tribes but are en­ Minister. If such things are happening at the gaged in other Jobs should be asked to top, who is there to listen to their grievances? perform the duties of sweeper. Similar views This matter should be seriously looked into. were expressed this morning by Shri Balkavi HO:1. Minister, Shri Chidambaram is quite Bairagi also. Ti!1 a person does not get the young and has aright kind of thinking. He Scheduled Caste certificate, he behaves like must think over tHe issue seriously and in­ an S.C.lS.T. but once he obtains the certifi­ quire into the whole thing. With this, I also cate, he behaves differently. Persons secur­ thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for bein~ ing admission on the basis of the Scheduled a bit considerate. Caste certificate behave normally with ill completion of education but afterwards start rEna/ish] behaving li~ a person belonging to the upper class This malpractice In issuing the SHAI TARUN KANTI GHOSH (8arasat): certificates needs to be looked into. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as this is a very important matter. I request you to give some So far as the quest:on Of economic time to the Members to express their views. cond.tion is concerned, I would like to state As a matter of fad, to improve the lot of that intellectuals can be found in every class. Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes So, what is needed is the change of hearts as has been one of the main objectives of the poor are also found among the Brahmins Mahatma Ganahi's campaign throughout his and the Reddys and they are also devoid of life. As envisaged in the Constitution, we the basic facilities. But they are compara­ have to uplift the most downtrodden people. tively lesser in number. If a person belonging If you go to a village, you will find the poorest to scheduled caste sitting among i 0 persons Jfthe poor and the mosf down-tlodd9n people discioses his caste affiliation, he has to face are the Scheduled castes and Scheduled awkward situation. His srtuation can be Tnbes people compared with that of i1 deflated automobile tyre. 13.00 hrs.

Here, I am reminded of an incloent Ar.y measure to uplift their lot shoula involving washing of idol ordered by the ~ave the support of tt,e entire nation, BrahminS somewhere in U.P. only becau~e irrespective of caste. creed, colour or any unveihng of the idol wa~ done by Babu other thing. Si~, I would like to tell you that JagJlvan Ram. Such IS the equatloP beh~'aen you should 3ee that there are not only reser­ the two and thereforo, the shuation needs to vations but y~u must also see to it that Thay be remodled. The momont one dlsclo$es are able to compete on an equal footing with one's scheduled cac;tA affiliatIOn, one looses everybody Particul,uly. I wolild like to te" all credibitity, though he may be intelligent, Shri Chidamharam one pOint. It is not enough eoucated and rich. This evil must be tJradi­ jus1 to say that the Schedul£d Caste and tated from the society. Many such evifs are Scheduled Tribe candIdates could not com­ prevalent in the soci&ty. The Scheduled pete and henca the seats which were re- 55 Disc. on LlberallsIJtion of MAY 12~ 1989 OIders re. rep. of S.C.S. T# 56

[Sh. Tarun Kant; Gosh] Minister ts that he must take all possible ma3sures to continue the policy of reselVa .. served for them could not be filled up from tion till the time the Scheduled Caste and their ranks. This justification could have been Scheduled Tribe communities come up and true in '948 or in 1950 but certainly not in are made equal to all citizens of tndla. 1990. After 40 years of Independence, it should have been our main effort to improve [ Trans/ation] their standard and by this time we should have gIven them the necessary education CH. SUNDER SINGH (Phillaur): Mr. and training so that they can compete with Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to express everybody on an equal footing. Not only my views on the issue of Scheduled Castes mere reservation of seats, you should also and the Scheduled Tribes. The Scheduled see to it that they are given all the opportuni­ Castes ar"d the Scheduled Tribes have been ties with regard to educatIon, training and oppressed for a long time. Babu Jagjivan other matters. So that they can come up to Ram tried his best to uplift these sections. our expectation. Dr. Ambedkar had said:

I would liKe to tell you that the Sched­ [English] uled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes have bee" used as a pawn in poiitical matters. "I was born as a Hindu. but the blame

Many people shed crocodile tears for these was not mine. tt people. But if we 1ry to find out what their attitude really is. we will come to know that [ Trans/cation] they are not really bctheled about ta,e wel­ fare of these commun;ties. We also find that A number of facilities and concessions the policy measures of the Government to are being given to the Scheduled Castes and improve their lot are not implemented down the Scheduled fribes by the Government. below. Therefore, this aspect must be looked To those hon. Members who demand one into properly and pi omptly. As a matter of thmg or the other for the l'pllftment of these fact, in an indtJpendent and democratic castes, I would like to tell that they have to country. right to work should be given to fight this battle on their own. everyb'Jdy. But till that timf? such a step is taken, reservations must continu~. In addi­ [English] tion, the. 3 mUSt be trUlning facilities for ~hese candidates so that they can r.aaHy go ahead No man can get his right by mel e re­ irl life. DUring the last ten years if yOLJ try to que'Sts. find out, you will sea that seats reserved for Scheduled Caste and SGheduled Tnbe rTrans/ation] candidates were not filled by those candl· dateson theplaa that properlyqual~ied boys Once elected to this August House, were not available from those communities. nobody wants to do anything forthe LJpliftment This is no excuse at all. when these posts of these castes. For this, we have to wage a are not filled up by those candidates. you full scale war. The hon. Members may go to must cor rbrt an inquiry as to why these are Punjab and find for themselves the number not filled up and why suitable candidates of officers appointed at my behest. Nobod~' from these communities are not available. has equalled me in this endedV'our. How· Acute un~mploym&nt and acute po~erty are ever, the Government's Rule is very ineffec­ something which should not ba tolerated in tive. Such administrative arrangements have an independent and democratic country like been made by which officers have been India. transferred at random. The officers whom I had appointed have been posted in insignifi­ My request through you to the hon. cant Departments. Those who were ap- 57 Disc. on Liberalisation of VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA)orders 1'9. rep. of S.C.S. T. 58

pointed there have been removed. The the concessions. It is not possible that the Government makes big promises but it only Government wi:1 grant them to us as a silver suppresses us wherever it is able to do so. platter. When we are elected as M. Ps or are ap­ pointed as Ministers it becomes our respon­ Injustice is being done to the officials in sibilijy to look into the tensions prevailing in Punjab. They have been posted at such those areas. How can the Government get places where they have no say. The position any information in that regard? r would sub­ there is chaotic. Therefore I would request mit that the Government should state that the hon. Home Minister to pay attention to the Ministers should tackle such situations. Punjab since injustice is being committed to This is our own fault that we request them for the harijans there. petty considerations. I feel very angry at it since what can they extend to others when With these words I conclude and thank they are themselves hungry. I submit that you for having granted me time to speak. right is taken and not given. I do not want to

name anyone but I have seen and am even SHRI R.P. SUMAN (f\kabarpl.lI I Mr. surprised to find that a number of Ministers Deputy Speaker, Sir, r rise to support the are anti-harijan and anti-Congress. I had statement of the hon. Minister of state in the once even requested the Hon. Prime Minis­ Ministery of Personnel, Public Grievances ter to give party tickets to the people after and Pensions m3de on 19th April, 1989, due consideration because it gets difficult for regarding the liberahsation of orders with a me to defeat them. I secured defeat for two view to improving the representation of such candidates who were anti-harijan and Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribe anti~Congress. At that time I had asked people communities in Central Government Posts! not to vote for them since they are incompe­ Services. tent although they have joined the Congress party. What is the fault of the Opposition In this August House, r would like to Members who have rightly pointed out that congratulate the Han. Prime Minister as well people are facing problems. What is the for having made some important announce­ harm In saying so? I feel that the poor and the ments recently by taking Into consideration harijans should themselves fight for their the sentiments of the crores of downtrodden cause. Their representatives have been and the conscious inteiligentia of the coun­ elected as Members, the Government has try. These announcements related to tne taken every possible step fur their welfare extension of the constitutional provision of and even the reservation proviSion has been reservation for the another 10 years and the extended. But now they say that it is all hon. Minister of State for LdW also announced political which is qu;h~ right because this has the decision of the Government to ban dere­ been done so that the harijans remain in the servation of posts. BeSides, while address­ mainstream what is wrong in it? This is qUite ing the historic rally in Lucknow, the Han. nght that it is political. Mahatma Gandhi had Prime Minister announced his deciSion to pointed out that if we isolate the harijans they" establish a university in the rame of Dr. B.A. can not survive. Therefo(e, such an arrange­ Ambedkar and thereafter laid Its foundation ment was made which has proved to be stone. The Hon. Prime Minister deserves to effective. The Poona Pact was singed after be heartily congratulated for aU these things. thiS statement was made by Mahatma Gandhi The reservation provision gets extended by and concessions were granted to them. another 10 years whenever the specified Therefore. I feel that the three Members of period comes to an end. However, when we the Opposition who halle expressed their make a review of the whole situation, it Views have made quite appropriate submis­ causes us a lot of distres~ to find that Inspite sions. We need not add anything. But this is of the passage of 41·42 years since inde­ What reallv happens. I w(.luld like to submit to pendence the percentage of the reserved the han. Members that we wifl have to get all quota fulfi!ted is very low. Why have we not 59 Disc. on liberalisation of MAY 12.1989 orders re. rep. of S. C. S. T. 60

(Ch. Sunder Singh] u'ed Tribes in the matters of appointment, promotions confirmations and transfers. But been able to fulfil even 50 percent of the I regret to say that when I raised this topic last reserved quota in the Group A and Group B year and demanded for the state-wise de~ services so far? Only in respect of CI.ass IV tails of the number of people penalised under and Clas$ III services, we have been jlble to the Civil Rights Protection Act, it was stated make ~ome progress. If we go through the that action has not been taken against any­ figures of the Minister of Welfare, we will find one so far: I would liketo know from the han. that the percentage of the vaca'1cies filled in Minister as to why in spite of the existence of the reserved category in different services in the relevant law, action has not been taken very inadequate anti it is essential to take against them? " such arrangements are not concrete steps in this direction. I would like to made, it will become imperative to extend draw the atte~ion of the han. Minister 'of the reservations for another 10 years and State towards the report presented by the even then, the reserved quota will not bo Ministry of Personnel and on the basis of that fulfilled. Today there is much resentment report it can said that between 1968 and among the crores ·of downtrodden people 1988 though there has definitely been some and which is for ever increasing. Therefore, increase in.the percentage of the Scheduled I would like to submit that it is the need oflhe Castes and Scheduled tribes in Groups hour to remove such resentment and in A,B,Cand Dbut it is not adequate. At-present ordar to do so, the reservation provisions in Group A service, we are 8.67 per cent, made in the constitution by its framers ~hauld brought forward in the case of Group B, it is be fulfilled. The Government has made 11.10 per cent, in Group C it is 14 per ceilt constant efforts in this direction. We have got and in Group D it is, 19 per cent. On the basfs this opportunity today due to the efficient of the figures It can claimed that there has leadershlpof the Han. Prime Minister and we definitely been some improvement in the shall have to take advantage of this opportu­ position but it is very unsatisfactory. We can nity and take-rapid strides in order to fulfil the observe that on one hand, reservations are reserv-ed quota. being extended and on t.he other, there are certain forces in the country..and I cannot I do not want to go into figures because understand as .to what nam-e to be given to "t Will take much of my time but I would them who have been questionirlg the Gov­ definitely like to submit that there are certain ernment's policy of extending 1he reserva­ things because of which such difficulties are tion policy. The people who are eligible for created. The hon. Minister is present here, .getting the reservation facilities are not ablQ a"d in h'is preqence, I would like to mention to enjoy them. If even after passage of 40 that a meeting of the members of Scheduled years, Groups A and 8 have been brought Castes aod Scheduled Tribes was called by forward by only 50 per cent, .how long Will It the Hon. Prime Minist8r in the Parliament take to) fulfill the entire quota. Therefore, I Annexe' and many important announceats would like to urge upon the Government that WfJre made. We are very grateful to him, some such law should be enacted by which Under his instructior.s three committees were it can be ensured that the officers who are constituted con&isting of 20 M.Ps belonging responsible for not filling up the reserved to these 'sections in each of them. The func­ vacandes are penalised. tion of one committee was to..look into the issue of reservation and to find out as to how The Civil Rights Protection Act· was' to fulfil the quota. The function of the second framed recently. It has been provided in this committee was to make suggestions regard­ Act that strict action Will be taken against Ing the measures which laws be taken f~r such an officp.r who our ot discriminatory checking the incidents of atrocities commit­ feelings and under the influence of untouch­ ted on the weaker sections and the function abllity I commits injustice to the people be­ of the third committee was to offer sugges­ longing to the Schedul~d Caste and Sched- tions regarding the socia-economic prob· 61 Disc. on Liberalisation of VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA)orders r9. rep. of S.C.S. T. 62

I~ms of these section of society. In the report Sir, on filing a suit by scheduled caste of the Ministry of Welfare, it has been men­ and scheduled tribe employees, the Su­ tioned that all the three committees have preme Court directed that time bound pro­ submitted their reports. If there is n(\ change motions should be given to the scheduled In the present state of affairs, it will not do. It castes and scheduled tribes employees will not be possible to fulfil the reserved withir, 12-13 years and also stressed upon to quota and remove the prevaifing resentment implement the scheme within 4 months. This matter relates to the employees of P and T and the Mini~try of Communication okayed it 13.14 hrs. but the file is lying with the Ministry of Per­ sonnel. You can well imagine that how much [SHRI N. VENKATA RATNAM in the resentment it can cause. Our Hon. Prime Chair] Mmister and our Government have to bear the ultimate consequences of it. Such legal provision should be made under which it will become obligatory for the I would like to submit that the Govern­ Departmental to fill up all the reserved va­ ment Will have to take action against those cancies within a specified period and if they who work in arbitrary manner, only then they are not able to do so, necessary action would perform their duty effiCIently. You will srould be taken against them. If such ar­ have to enact such law. Of course, provi­ rangements are not made, the quota will not sions, exist in our Constitution for the pur­ be fulfilled pose but you WIll hav& to implement them and punish the guilty. Now I would like to draw your attention towards two or three issues which were Look, what happens in banks. 17 offi­ raised during the last session of the Parlia­ cers in Bank of Baroda were transferred at a ment. When the Government was asked to distance, of 500 miles and all of them be­ appoint trained r;onductors in the Depart­ longed to scheduled castes and scheduled ment of Transport in order to fill up the tnbes. Why are they being discriminated. backlog of Scheduled Castes ans Sched­ From whom should they expect justice if the uled Tribes, the Government expressed their management itself adopts unjustified atti­ Inobillty due to the lack of the availability of tude towards them and transfer them at a trained conductors. I may submit that about long distance outside Defhi. You should give 500 trained persons belonging to scheduled a serious thought to the matter and take castes and scheduled tribes are availahle stringent measures to see that people be­ who are unemployed and the Government longing to these categories are not trans­ have not been able to offer them any post ferred outside Delhi. Sir, It is a matter of great regret that on one sld~, the Government say that trained con­ It is said that a number of facilities and ductors are not available while in reality a concessions are beIng provided to them. numberof such candidates are unemployed. ThiS is not true. These are the people who have been suppressed for thousands of Quota resp-rved for scheduled castes years. It is not a special concession for them. and scheduled tribes is not being filled even The society will havG to provide these facili­ In Delhi. Out 01 the total 500 stenographers ties to them. The Government will have to employed In Delhi Development Authority, provide these thIngs so long as people of onlY 34 belong to scheduled castes and scheduled castes and scheduled tribes are scheduled tribes. Out of the total 150 execu­ exploited. tIve srtgineers employed there, only 4 be­ long to these categories. It ;s totally unJusti­ Wi,houtgoing intofur1herdetails, I would fied. Sir. it is a matter of great shame that urge upon the han. Minister to enforce law in Injustice is being done to them in Delhlltsttlf. this regard so that attrocltles are not commit- 63 Disc. on Liberalisation of MAY 12,1989 orders rtI. tep. of S. C. s. T. 64

(Sh. R.P. Suman] Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would like to give some suggestions to the hon. Minister. First ted on the people of scheduled castes and J would submit that injustice;s being done t~ scheduled tribes, their entire quota of reser­ employees belonging to scheduled castes vation is fiUed and no excesses are commit­ and scheduled tribes and the number of ted in the matters of confirmation and trans­ cases filed in courts is increasing. I would fers. We are grateful to you for announcing like the Government to constitute a separate the procedure to be adopted in their recruit­ tribunal to hear and deal with the such griev­ ment. But this is in case of appointments, ances so th1t justice is done to them at the while in 90-95 percent cases they do not get earliest and they can avail of the opportuni­ promotion. The announcement made by you, ties of getting promotion. no doubt is commendable but similar proce­ dure should be followed in the case of pro­ Secondly, I would like the Government motions also. The concessions in case of to increase recruitment centres for providing appointments only will not serve the pur­ employment. At present, the recruitment pose. Recruitment has been banned these centres of public undertakings, Government days. Therefore, same rules should be fol­ establishments or Banks are either in State lowed in the case of promotions and there capitals or in big cities like Delhi, Bombay, should not be let up in this regard. Calcutta, Madras etc. I would like to mention the case of a tribal candidate in particular. It As the cases were examined before de­ becomes extremely difficult for a person reserving the posts earlier, same procedure residing in Chanderpur to go to Bombay, or should be adopted in this regard. from Chiabasa to Patna, from Bastar to Bhopal, from Kolhapur to Bhubaneshwar or Withthesewords,lthankthe Hon. Prime from Srikakulam to Hyderabad. It is very Minister and the hon. Minister and ~onclude. difficult for tribal people to visit distant areas for interVIew. Therefore, I would like the SHRI ARVIND NETAM (Kankar): Mr. Government to increase the number of reo Chairman, Sir, I welcome the Statement cruitment centres and separate recruitment made by Shri Chidambaram on 19th April. ce,ntres should be set up for tribal areas. It The Announcement made by the han. Minis­ would enable the Government to achieve ter about the reservation policy is a wise the target, otherwise it is not possible. step. . We generally observe that on one hand, According to the statistics of the Minis­ there are long ques of unemployed persons try and quoted by Shri Suman, even after the in Employment Exchanges while on the other long duration of 40 years, quota reserved for hand, the vacancies meant even for class IV only class IV employees has been filled ur employees are not being filled. Even the safar. Whereas the quota reserved for A. B. C. Bank officials say that deserving candidates categories in scheduled castes and A to 0 are not available. It means that there is some categories in schedul9d tribes, has still not missing link. Therefore, I would suggest that been filed. It is due to this fact that the Hon. a separate organisation under Central Gov­ Prime Minister has taken this matter seri­ ernment should be set up in every State ouslyand announced to stop dereservation which should prepare the list of candidates of posts. I think that its result would be belonging to scheduled castes and sched· favourable even after 40 years. Similarly, the uled tribes and feed the Government offices. suggestions given by Shri Suman that we There is no used of depending on Employ­ should adopt the same policy in the matter of ment Exchanges of the States. promotions also, is appropriate. In this manner, there will be improvement in term of So far as fake certificates are concerned r percentage as well as in achieving our tar­ I would propose to set up a separate inve ;>­ get. tigation agency to check this tendency. In 65 Disc. on Libllrallsstion 01 VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA)orders reo rep. of S.O.S. T. 66 this regard, I would sugges1 that as Matric scheduled castes and scheduled tribes that certificate ;s considered to be authentic as the provisions regarding Government jobs to birth certificate another column for caste the scheduled castes/scheduled tribes and should also be added to ~ so that we may weaker sections under section 335 and 16 know that the candidate belongs to sched a (4) of the constitution are no1 being imple­ uled caste or scheduled tribe and thus this mented. He has taken a firm decision to fulfill bungling would be checked. Because, gen­ the constnutional obligations. He deserves erally, after obtaining B.A. and M.A. de­ to be congratulated for this. Shri Chidamba­ grees, people try to obtain fake certificates ram should ~Iso be congratulate for he has inorder to get employment. So I would like taken an initiative and made a statement in that the Government should make provision the House on behalf of his Ministry in this to add a separate column in Matric Certifi­ regard. The aforesaid provisions of the cate which should indicate that the candi­ constitution provide for 15~/o and 7 1/20/0 date belongs to scheduled caste and sched­ reservation in Government jobs for sched­ uled tribe. It can prove to be the best method uled castes and schedulp.d tribes respec­ to check malpractice. Education standard tively. A detailed study should be made of also requires to be relaxed, particularly, in the report submitted by the commissioner of respect of remote areas. The liaison officers scheduled castes and scheduled tribes to who have recently been recruited should be the President in November 'SS and full ef­ given intensive training. Their training has forts should be made to implement the been just a formality. Even Government is recommendations made therein to fulfil the not aware of many officers. The number of reservation quota which the Government Pre-recruitment training centres should be has not been able to fill up so far. To provide Increased and training should be made more social justice to the scheduled castes and Intensive. More and more persons belong­ scheduled tribes, a provision was included in Ing to scheduled castes/scheduled tribes the new 20 point programme of 1986 at the should be posted in Banks, undertakings, Instance of the Prime Minister. The mem­ Human Resources Development and the bers of the opposition parties are saying that department of policy making. SC/ST candi· It has been done because of the elections. I dates should be appointed to the past of would like to invite their attention to this fact Director in Undertakings. The Government that it is for the first time. after the new 20 has taken no initiative in this regard so far. pOint programme introduced by Shri Rajiv Gandhi in August 86, that the attention of the Even the retired persons belonging to country i'S being drawn to the recommenda­ these catagories are available and they can tions made by the commissioner of sched­ be posted. It would prove to be quite benefi­ uled castes and scheduled tribes in his re­ cial. If my suggestions are taken seriously, port. they would prove beneficial to provide em­ ployment to more and more people. With Mr. Chairman. Sir. I would like to draw these words, I conclude and express my the attention of the hon. MInister of Home gratitude to you for giving me an opportunity Affairs towards the recommendations made to express my views. in the report. In chapter 8. atlention of the Government has been drawn, particularfy. SHRI PRATAP BHANU SHARMA towards the recommendations made regard­ (Vidisha): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would like to Ing A" India servIces. A reference has been express my views in support the important made to 14 services pertaining to the Minis .. subject being discussed in the House today. try of Defence, Energy and Technology. It Though you, Sir, 1would like to congratulate has been stated in the Report that the num­ Our young Prime Minister Shri Rajiv Gandhi. ber of the candidates belonging to sched­ He got the matter reviewed and understood uled castes and scheduled tribes selected the seriousness of the matter through the against the prescribed quota was really report submitted by the Commissioner of negtigible. The number of the centres fixed 67 Disc. on Liberalisation of MAY 12,1989 orders reo rep. of S. C. s. T. 68

[Sh. Pratap Bhanu Shar Ima] congratulate the Hen. Prime Minister for the initiative he has taken in the matter of filling for training was also inadequate. The infor­ up the posts reserved for scheduled castes mation regarding the advertisements for the and scheduled tribes and would request him vacancies and the programmes for training to issue instructions to the State Govern· was not made available to the candidates ment also to take steps to fill up such posts belonging to scheduled castes and sched­ which are lying vacant. But, the instructions uled tribes. This is the reason that the candi­ given by the Government are not being fol­ dates in adequate number could not appear lowed by the industrial units and public sec­ in the examination or join the training centres tor undertakings. A detailed study should be and their representation in the services has made of the report of the com missioner for been less than one percent. At some places scheduled castes and scheduled tribes. it has been only 0.2 percent. In the ministries Attention of the Government has been drawn of technology, energy, water resources and various problems. The Ministry of Home surface transport, representation of sc.hed­ Affairs and the Ministry of Welfare should uled castes and scheduled tribes in services issue directions to the State Chief Ministers in almost negligible. It is, therefore, neces­ to take steps to implement the recommenda­ sary to pay attention in this regard. In Gov­ tions made in the Report !norder to follow the ernment Jobs, they get employment on the provisions made in the Constitutions to which post of clerks, they are not appointed on the bt.:ilders of the Nation Mahatma Gandhi, technical posts and on other higher posts, Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, Maulana Azad, because they are not trained for technical Shrimati Indira Gandhi and today the young posts. The Government should pay attention Prime Minister Shri Rajiv Gandhi have been towards the posts lying vacant in industries committed. I am sure that through this diS­ or in public sector undertakings. Bureau­ cussion all the related departments, indus­ crats say that the vacancies reserved for the tries and the State Governments will get a candidates belonging to scheduled castes message to clear their backlog regarding and scheduled tribes are not filled up be­ filling up the post, reserved for scheduled cause of non availability of candidates be­ castes and scheduled tribes. This work should longing to these communities in adequate be completed by the year 1989-90. There number. We should prepare a programme should be no problem in that. on the basis of the recommendations made by the commissioner in his Report so that we In the end, I would like to draw the may give training to the candidates belong­ attention of the House towards a burning ing or scheduled castes and tribes in ad­ issue. Why do we flnd this backlog at differ­ vance to enable them to ensure their selec­ ent places today? A villager goes back to his tion on the higher posts in fields of sCience village after getting education in the city. and technology. This way, we may have the Most of the people belonging to scheduled talented people and they may also have the castes and scheduled tribes depend on opportunities to work in these fields. It is also agriculture and their economy is linked with not justified to draw such a limit that only the villages. Therefore, they go back to the those having an income of less than one villages after getting education in the cities. thousand rupees will be allowed to join such TheV do not get the information about new training courses. The person serving on a posts being created in the Government serv­ lowest post gets Rs. 1000/- today. There­ ices. The Government should make arrange­ fore, slabs should be fixed in a way where ments to bridge this communication gap

I the minimum should be one thousand rupees through radio, television and other pubJicity and after that it should be Rs. 1500 and more medias. A number of posts Feserved for SC so that, besides training, candidates belong­ & STare not filled upbecauseofthiscommu- ing to scheduled castes and scheduled tribes nication gap and we do not get suitab~e may also get the an opportunity to qualify in candidates belonging to scheduled castes competitive examination. I would like to and scheduled tribes. Arrangement should 69 Disc. on Liberalisationof VAISAKHA.22, 1911 (SAKA)orders reo rep. of S.C.S. T. 70

be made to that people living in rural areas laws have been enacted for the~rwelfare and may get full information in this regard. With various other steps have been taken by our these words, I would like to congratulate the Government in this regard. I would like to han. Minister of Home Affairs for the state­ give one or two examples. The great thinker ment he has made in the House and thank Dr. 8aba Saheb Ambedkar and the great him for providing us an opportunity to take leader 8abu Jagjivan Ram were born in the part in the discussion which will make its same neglected section of the society and impace throughout the country. I would also they accomplished the jobs with full respon­ like to congratulate him for the initiative he sibility tt'ley were entrusted with. So I woufd has taken to' im'prement the policies of Ma­ like to subm~ that if we want to strengthen hatma Gandhi. the country and want to have full cooperation of the people of scheduled castes and sched­ SHRI BANWARI LAL BAIRWA (Tonk): uled tribes, it is necessary to continue the Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would like to thank you reservation provisions in the Constitution. for the opportunity given to me to take part in this important discussion. We are living in Han. Chairman, Sir, I would liketothank four varanas system of society. At a timethis Hon'ble Shri Chidambaram for it. He has system was founded, the authors of Vedas, stated a very good thing about reservation. I our Rishi-Munis might not have imagined feel that in this way he has given an expres-­ thatthis system will prove disstrous in future. sion to the desire of our Prime Minister in this No one had imagined at that time that the House and he is quite clear in his mind and people will take merely touching as impious. heart about it. The people of scheduled .The ancient system of four varanas encour­ castes and scheduled tribes are the assets aged caste system in our country. The evil of the nation and they should be given a push effects of this system are very much discour­ in this way so that ~ may bring in a complete aging. We have seen that the society has to awakening in the society. suffer on this the account in the past also because 25 per cent population of the coun­ Sir, I would like to say that there is a try has been given no work to do, there were class of educated people who are· against no men as for them to earn their livelihood. the reservation policy. You have just ob­ They were the oppressed and the rejected served in the house that one of our hone people, they were made to suffer and were Members was saying it that only one mem­ given menial jobs in the society. The society ber of a family should be given the benefit or has been responsible for this all. How can reservation and no other member of that they be held responsible for thAir miserable family should be considered for the same. It lot. This is the reasons of vast disparities is a sort of mental depravation. It should be existing in the society today. The country has done away with because the facility of reser­ been left to hear the consequences of the vation for only one person from a family, will . system. not solve the problem of their poverty, back­ wardness and lower status in the society. Of late, a new era has dawned in the Therefore, it is may submission that this country and there is new awakening. Our should not h~8n that way. , will go to the Prime Minister has realised that the discrimi­ extent of saying it that if it is at all possible, H nation on the basis of caste and creed in the should be extended further because w~h the country has been an injustice to certain provision of additional facilities for them, at sections of the society and this has made the least the famil)' as a whote will get an oppor .. country to bear ~s consequences. He, there­ tunity to go ahead. fore, has taken revolutionary steps to stop such a practice of discrimination. Our lead­ Sir, I would like to stress two points in ers have realised the need to ameliorate the respect of reservation. Whenever, provisions lot of the section of society which has been . are made for reservations, trade unions and oppressed· and suppressed for centuries, some other people come in its way and go to 71 Disc. on Liberaiisation of MAY 12,1989 orders re. rep. of S.C.S. T. 72

(Sh. Banwart La' Bairwa] extend my support again for what has been stated by the Hon. Minister. the courts to resist the move and when somebody has gone to court, a lot of difficulty [English] is faoed by the administration to decide as to how 10 go on with their work in a particular THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE diredion. Hence the Government should MINISTRY OF PERSONNEL, PUBLIC then cover it with reference to various insti­ GRIEVANCES AND PENSIONS AND MIN­ tutions and particularly in respect of public ISTER OF STATE IN THE MrNISTRY OF undertakings where the Government move HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBA­ of providing reservation is stalled by the RAM): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am gratefultothe people and the very purpose of provision of hon. Members who have participated in this reservation is defeated. Hence the Govern­ debate and proadly welcomed the statement ment should come out with a law which may made by me regarding two important deci­ not be challenged by the people in courts sions taken by Government in the matter of otherwise h will be very difficult for the poor reservatIon for Scheduled Castes and Sched­ and the Harijans to fight fortheir cause in the uled Tribes. I am sorry that more time could courts. It will be very difficult for them and not be given to our Members, more Mem­ 1hey will never be able to get their rights bers could not be called upon to speak, Similarly, you should see that the reserva­ because we are racing against time, there is tions provided by you are in fact imple­ a time constraint. At 2 O'clock we have to mented. Another thing to be seen in whether take up the debate on another important ·this provision of reservation is accepted by subject. them. There is a system in all the depart­ ments, public undertakings and in banks that Sir, let me share with the hon. Members the demands of the employees of these some data. I think it is important to under­ organisations should be conceded. Even for stand this problem in its perspective. The this, the Government should come forward Government is committed to the provisions with requisite amendments in the trade un­ of our Constitution. And our founding fa­ ion Ad to get it granted to these sections of thers, very wise men with great experience people because that is the only forum where of life and historyofthiscountry, provided for they can raise their grievances in respect of reservations for Scheduled Castes and the provisions of reservation. SimHarly, it is Scheduled Tribes in the Constitution, And my submission that in case the Government shortly after the first Parliament was consti­ creates reserved posts and holds interviews tuted. they did not hesitate. within months forthe same but later on says that no suitable after the Constitution was adopted, to amend candidate was available, the head of the the Constitution by the First Amendment Act department should be held responsible for to provide for reservation for Scheduled the same. If a post against reserved vacancy Castes and Scheduled Tribes even in the is filled by General Category of candidate. a matter of admission to educational institu­ provision should be made that salaries of tions. I was just reading Pandit Jawaharla! officers held responsible for such recruit­ Nehru's speech where he said: ments would be withheld. Only then reser­ vation policy wiU be completely implemented. For this purpose, the Government 'Should "We claim not only a technical or chalk out a time-bound programme. I would constitutional authority to do this, but a like to thank han. Shti'Chidambaram Sahib moral authority to do this. We framed for his statement against de-reservation of our Constitution, we found that in its vacancies. That tS very good but along with interpretation some difficulties were it I .would like to say that the Government placed in the way and we have no sh~ld extend the provision of reservation in hesitation in amending the Constitu­ the. matter of their promotions. In the end, I tion." 73 Disc. on Liberalisation of VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA)ordefS re. rep. of S.C.S. T. 74

If that can be said for amending the Group 'A' .. 128 and 1,295 Constitution. it can be said with greater force Group 'B' .. 144 and 1,668 for formulating and implementing Govern­ Group 'e'.. 15,665 and 93.627 ment policies. I do not believe that there is Group '0'.. 41558 and 67,869. anyone in this country who can claim greater moral authority to speak for Scheduled SHAI THAMPAN THOMAS (Mavs .. Castes and Scheduled Tribes than those of likara): Mr. Chidambaram, will you give us w~o are on this side in the Congress percentage-wise figures for 1968 and 1988? Party. For forty years we have implemented to the best of our abifity our policy of reserva­ SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I am giving tion. Sir. we had mixed results. Let me give it. You patiently wait. Unless I finish that you the data as on two dates --1. 1. 1968 answer how can I give answerto you? I have and 1.1.1988. On 1.1.196 the number of noted down. Let me finish. Scheduled Castes employees in Group 'A' was only 459 in the whole of the Government SHRI THAMPAN THOMAS: Then the of India. Today it is 4,886, not satisfactory cat will be out of the bag. because it still accounts for only 8.67 per cent of employees in Group 'A' whereas it SHRI P. CHIDAMI:SARAM: Sir, nothing should be fifteen per cent. In Group 'B' on will be out; in fact your charge will be proved ~ 1.1.68 we had 1 ,083 employees of Sched­ wrong. The charge that you made that it is an uled Castes, today we have 8,864 employ­ election gimmick, I think, is a hopelessly ees, a numerical increase of 7,781. Yet it is unfair charge. It is a charge which is being .Inadequate because it represents only 11.18 made only because you sit on the opposition per cent. In Group 'C' on 1.1.6B we had benches. 1,13,374 employees belonging to the Sched­ uled Castes, on 1.1.88 we had 3,09,041, a Sir, while the numerical increase in numerical increase of nearly two lakhs, and considerable, I said the goal has not yet the percentage is slowly creeping up to the been reached. Percentage increase in­ 15 per cent level. it is only 14.8 per cent. In creases are significant. In Group 'A' in Sched· Group '0' which I never consider a good uled Castes the percentage increase be· bench mark, we had on 1.1.68 2,11,115 tween 1968 and 1988 is 964.5 per cent, in employees, today we have increased it by Group 'B' it is 718.5 per cent, in Group Ie' it another 10,000 the percentage of course is is 172.6 per cent. Mr. Thampan Thomas 19.88 per cent. wanted to know the percentage-wise figures for 1968 and 1988. I will give the Scheduled Sir, we are moving forward, in fact we Caste figures. are moving upward. SHRI THAMPAN THOMAS: I am trying AN HON. MEMBER: You have not to make you understand me. You give the given figures for Scheduled Tribes. pro-rata basis, i.e. thQ job opportunities available in 1968 and percentage for that SHRIP.CHIDAMBARAM: Iwouldcome and those in 1988 and percentage for that. to that. We are movlng forward, we are Then only a comparaliv9 study can be made moving upward, but the climb is very slow. as to how much improvement is there. the climb is painfully slow. SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, he cannot approach this with a pre-judged mind. The hon. Member wanted figures for He has made no effort to look up the figures Scheduled Tribes. t will rapidly run through before he made his speech. At least. he the figures. I shall give two figures the first should wait after he made his speech and figure is for 1.1.1968 and the second figure listen to the figures. These are all figures is for 1.1.1988. Accordingly, which are available and which are published. 75 Disc. on Liberalisation of MAY 12,1989 rYrdefs fe. rep. of S. C. S. T. 76

[Sh. P. Chidambaram] Union Public Service Commission Report That is the only available data from which I If he had taken the trouble of looking into was able to quote. these figures before he made his speech, I would have been greatly benefited. SHRIP. CHIDAMBARAM: From UPSC Report you were quoting only in respect of Sir, on 1.1.1968, in Group 'A' we had Civil Service!> Examination. You were unfor­ only 2.11 per cent, today it is 8.67 per cent; tunately confining your quotations to the in Group 'B' it was 3.11 per cent, today it is figures of the Civil Service Examination. Civil 11.18 per cent; in Group 'e' it was 9.22 per Service examination is perhaps the only cent, today it is 14.80 per cent; and in Group examination where Scheduled Castes and '0' excluding sweepers who are not counted Scheduled Tribes are filled every year. It is for this purpose it was 1B.32 per cent, now it because, we select only about BOO to 900 is 19.88 per cent. The overall for all the people in Group A services. We are not groups it was 13.37 per cent, today it is 16.30 talking about Civil service examination alone. per cent. Yet I will be the first to admit that we It is very easy to find 20 boys or girls for lAS, are not happy with the slow climb towards 15 boYS or girls for IPS. But that is not an ' our goal. Now, we looked into this matter. answer to the problem. What we are talking Why is this climb slow? I was convinced that about is the board spectrum of recruitment, one of the reasons why we are not reaching running from Group 'A' Group B, Group C our goals is because of this whole theory of and Group 0 throughout the Government of de-reservation. India. Unfortunately, your attention has been focussed on one page which deal with only Sir, a comment was made that his is the Civil Service examination. only an academic exercise. I believe Mr. Ayyapu Reddy made this comment. that IS I have got the figures for three years of not so. As on 1.1.1987, in Group 'A' we had this Government. I am sure the figures were in the year 1986,752 vacancies, out of which worse earlier. I am giving you the total fig­ only 461 were filled and 10 vacancies has ures, total number of reservations lapsed lapsed after three years of de-reservation In during the period 1985, 1986 and 1987, Group 18' we had 842 vacancies out of which which means, dereservatlons started much only 751 were filled and 25 have lapsed. In earlier. In Group A, Scheduled Castes 30 Group 'C', we had 22,409 vacancies. We and Scheduled Tribes 46 which lapsed. In filled them but 498 vacancies of previous Group B, Scheduled Castes 50 and years had lapsed. In Group 'DO. we had 7,881 Scheduled Tribes 39. I do not accept this; at vacancies. We filled them but we had 307 least, I understand this. In Group C, Sched­ vacancies of previous years which had uled Caste vacancies lapsed were 18 ~ 7 and lapsed. This de-reservation had become a Scheduled Tribes 573. Coming to Group C, handle, had become an instrument in the I neither accept it, nor do I understand it. In hands of people who had no commitment to Group 0, 446 Scheduled Caste vacancies the policy of reservation to find a way to jeny lapsed and 315 Scheduled Tribe lapsed. Tell benefits to Scheduled Castes and Sched­ me what is the justification, what is the justi­ uled Tribes. fication to say that in this country, you cannot find a suitable candidate to fill a Group C vacancy. I understand about an isolated 13.54 hrs. vacancy in Group A, which calls for some special qualifications. You can perhaps get [MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chait1 away with argument that I cannot find a Scheduled Caste or Scheduled Tribe candi­ SHRI AYYAPU REDDY (Kurnool): May date. I understand it, though I do not accept I jUst know on what basis you are giving the that argument. But for Groups C and 0, I facts and flgyres? Because I quoted from the neither understand, nor do I accept it. 77 Disc. on Liberalisation of VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA)orders reo rep. of S.C.S. T. 78

SHRI E. AYYAPU REDDY (Kurhost): quire every Ministry of the Government, every By implication, you are attributing to your Secretary and every officer who is charged officers who are responsible for recruitment with recruitment to go out and find the Sched .. of these candidates. uled Caste and Scheduled Tribe candidates in whatever manner he wants to do consis· SHRI P. CH1DAMBARAM: I am not ten~ with the recruitment rules to fill these saying anything by implication. j am saying vacancies. about the system of which Mr. E. Ayyapu Reddy is a part and I am a part of which you I wish to make one important announce­ are a part for a longer time than I have been. ment in this connection. The Government There is the in-built bias in the system against have decided to launch a special recruitment recruitment of Scheduled Castes and Sched­ drive to fill the backlog of vacancies ear .. uled Tribes. It may not be conscious. But it is marked for Scheduled Castes and Sched­ sub-conscious. It is not only there in the uled Tribes. Central Government services. It is there in the public, sector enterprises;. in banks it is 14.00 hrs. there and more so In State Governments TimA has come to revolt against this kind of "The Prime Minister has directed that to system which keeps out Scheduled Castes the extent that these vacancIes fall within and Scheduled Tribes under one pretext or the purview of the Government, the other. I am answering your question. You MIOistriec.; and Departments concerned said, this is an exercise of academic irrele­ will commence the special recruitment vance. I deny it. This is not an exercise of on the 1st of June, 1989 and complete Irrelevance. This is not an academic exer­ the process within three months, i.e., cise. This is a burning problem. this is a 31st August, 1989. To the extent that serious problem, the problem about which the vacancies are to be filled through we must feel ashamed. We must deal with it the upse, yesterday I wrote to the not by cosmetic changes, not be persuasion, UPSC on the direction of the Prime not by appeal-well, all that is necessary, but Minister requesting the UPSC to make we must change it, by changing the whole a special effort to fill the backlog of approach to the question of recruitment to vacancies within the same period of the civil services. This is the reason why we threemonthsfromthe 1stJune, 1989to announced that henceforth dereservation is 31st August, 1989." banned. We recognise there may be some grave situation arising in Group A. we have I have had a meeting with the Chairman reserved that right. That part is now central­ of the UPSC and he has kindly agreed to ised in the Ministry of Personnel for which accelerate the recruitment processes so that the Prime Minister is the Cabinet Minister Government's policy in this behalf will be and we will not allow dereservations even in fulfilled and achIeved before 31 st August, Group A, unless are absolutely satisfied that 1989. you cannot find a suitable Scheduled Caste or Scheduled Tribe candidate for that va­ liThe filling of this backlog of vacancies cancy. would go a long way to satisfy the aspi­ rations of the members belonging to the In Group D, Group C and Group S, let SetST communities." me make it very clear we do not accept the argument. We reject the argument that you A question was asked by Shri Sha­ cannot find suitable persons from Sched­ habuddin and Dr. Rajhans how long we are uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes to fill going to persist in this policy. Our answer is group B, Group C and Group 0 vacancies. very clear. We shall contmue this policy as We shall therefore, require every Depart­ long as there ;s social discrimination and ment of the Government, we therefore, ra- backwardness among SC/ST. We do not 79 Disc. on Liber.lisstion of MAY 12,1989 orders reo rep. of S.C.S. T. 80

(Sh. P. Chidambaram) vation in promotion vacancies is delegated to the Ministries and Departments. But, we flinch from taking this decision. 40 years in are mon~oring the situation. If we find that the life of a nation is not a tong period. 200 the delegation is being abused and if within years after America became independent, three months period the backlog of vacan­ they still have to have, what they calt I af­ cies is not filled, we may have to consider firmativ8 action programmes for the blacks. centralising this power in one Ministry. But, I What we call protective discrimination, spe­ do n01 think that will arise. The Prime Minis­ cial reservation for SC/ST in the matter of ter has given a very categorical direction and employment, will continue as long as Parlia­ I am absolutely confident in my mind that ment and as long as Government feels that within three months, the opes will be con­ there is discrimination against SC/ST and vened and all backlog of vacancies for SCI they continue to suffer under discrimination ST in promotion quota will be filled before and conditions of backwardness. 31 st August. 1989.

Mr. Tarun Kanti Ghosh and other Some one mentioned that we have not Members asked about training. We have 96 yet appointed Directors from SC/ST of publtc part examination coaching centres. I have sector enterprises. I am very glad to inform taken note of the comment made by some the House that we have just started the hone Members that the income ceiling for process and some names are in the final entry into these coaching centres must be stages of approval to appoint official and raised upwards. I shall convey this to the non-official directors on the Board of public Minister of WeHare and see what can be sector enterprises from SC/ST. done. Finally. I would like to say that a point As far as coaching of such candidates IS was made about this that th,s is an Election concerned, I have with me a letter from the gimmick. I believe only Mr. Thampan Tho­ Ministry of Welfare which says that the total mas madethe point. Since no one else made number of SC/ST candidates who were given the point, I assume that everyone joins me in coaching during the years 1986 and 1987 for rejecting the point made by Mr. Thampan the various competitive examinations was Thomas. But ! wish to tell Mr. Thampan 5,525 and 7,398 respectively. This is not Thomas that the quest,on of reservation for enough. I have wr~ten to the Minister of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes Human Resource Development and I am has been a question which has been agitat~ trying to see more coaching centres are set ing me ever since I joined the Ministry of up and more SC/ST candidates are admitted Personnel on the 7th of October 1985. As far to these coaching centres. as banning de-reservation IS concerned, after seeing the figures, in my own Ministry, I look A question was asked why not dereser­ the decision that we should propose to ban vation in promotion. We have examined this. de-reservation on the 10th of June 1988 fang There IS no need for dereservation in promo­ before anyone was thinking of election. A tinn because promotion is from the feeder Cabinet note was submItted to the Prime category. We have made strict rules about Minister on the 22nd of August 1988. The the zona ot consideration and the muhiple to Prime Minister indicated his approval on the De 8fTlolOyed. We know who is in tha zone of 29th of September, 1988. We has consti­ COhSlderation and very few can really tinker tuted a Committee of Members of Parlia .. or tal 11 per with tne zone of consideration. As ment to look into the matter. They gave their lOng C:t~ we know that there are SC/ST can­ report in December 1988. We finalised our didates within the zone of consideration, no views on the first of January 1989. The one can pretend that you do not have a revised Cabinet note was sent to the Prime qualified candidate and, therefore, propose Minister in the end of January 1989 and the dereservation. Today, the pOwer of dareser .. Prime Minister approved it in February 1989. 81 Disc. on Liberaiisation of VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) order f9. rep. of S.C.S. T. 82

So, this can hardly be described as an elec­ practice followed in the Central government tion gimmick. We have seriously constdered was not quite in conformity with what I thought the matter and after careful deliberation and was right. It has taken of course consider­ aftertaking into account the views of the hen. able time to persuade everyone to see the Members, we have taken this bold step to correctness of our reasoning. I am sup­ ban the de-reservation. It is something which ported by recommendation No. 64 of the wa~ available to the previous Government 25th Report of the Commissioner for Sched· but it is something which the previous Gov­ uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes and ernment did not do. Recommendation No. 78 of the 26tn Report of the Commissioner for Scheduted Castes Finally, I would like to make one very ans Scheduled Tribes. I must convey my important announcement. thanks tathe Prime Minister. Thiswasbrought to his notice and the anomaly was pointed SHRI THAMPAN THOMAS: Sir, I have out. He readily saw the point and said: "Yes, raised another point and that is about the go ahead. There seems to have been an converted people and their fate. I would like anomaly." Successive Ministers dealing w~h 10 know from the hon. Minister as to what is the subject had felt that this was a correct his policy on that. practice. But I took a different view. It has taken a long time to reach this position. But SHRI P. CHIDAMOARAM: Sir, Mr. i am glad that I am able to announce the Thomas, as a lawyer, knows the answer but decision today. Hitherto In direct recruit­ yp-t he would like to get the answer from me. ment, an SC/ST candidate selected on his or I have no objection in obliging him. It does ~Ier own merit, without any relaxed standard. not fall within the scope of this debate. Tl1ere wa.:; adjusted against a vacancy reserved for IS a Constitutional bar. The Constitution onl~' Scheduled Castes or Sc"'~duled Tribes as recognises the Scheduled Castes and the case may be. The remaining reserved Scheduled Tribes among the Hindus and vacancies were filled by dul~' selected SCI among the Sikhs. That IS tile Constitutlonc:.1 ST candidates in accorda nee with the scheme provision. ThiS point cannot he answered to of reservation. Aquestion was ra;sed whether the short span of time availab!e to me. It IS a an SC/ST candidate, selected on his or her larger question. The Constjtutlon would have own merit, in cOlnpetitlon wIth general candi· to be amended to provide for recognisation dates, shoulrf be adjusted ~g~inst a reserved of Scheduled Caste~ and Scheduled Tribes vacancy In some States, s~ch candIdates people among the people who are con­ are not adjusted against the reserved vac::!n­ verted. it is very well known ~o Mr. Thomas.He des but are allow to take their place In the should raise it at an appropriate time. , am order of ment along with the general ca'1dl­ 5ure the Go,,"ernment would give an appro­ dates. priate answer. I am gl3d to Inform the H(Juse that the Sir, finally I VJould like to make another Prime Mmister has deCIded to modify the Important announcement. This IS a major policy In this behalf. hereafter, SetST candi~ decision that we have taken wIth the ap­ dates who are selected on merits withe. Jt i pr\lval of the Prime Minister. ThiS again IS a relaxed standards in competItion WIth cand . matter which causerl Me consirlerable ,;on­ dates belonging t") the gfJneral category, will cern and I have recorded my first noteon lrls not be adjusted against HlP reserved vac.an~ on the 14th of Octo~er 1986 when I found cies. They Nil! nct be adjlJr.. tcd against the that the Scheduled Castes and Schedull3d rese:veo vacancies They \AI,II take their pt&C9 1 ribes candidates Wt:fre being adjusted in th& merit list alo"l9 with the general candi­ against the Scheduled Caste and Sched· dates. The vacancies reserved for SC/ST uled Tribes Quota ire a particular ma'1ner and commlJ'lities will be fined separately by se­ I fen that this was wrong. I know the practJ(:~e lecting £u~aole candidat~s from the SC/ST foUowed in some State5. I thC'ught that the communities in accordance with the scheme 83 Disc. on Atrocities MAY 12,1989 on Women 84

(Sh. P. Chidambaram] ALIA (Sangrur): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to draw attention of this House of reservation. This policy is intended to towards atrocities being committed on recognise that among SC/ST candidates women. there are candidates who are selected on their own mer~ and, hence, they should not (English] preempt any of the vacancies reserved for the SCISTcommunities. By this measure, it Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do not find the is expected that the number of candidates Minister for Social Welfare here. eventually selected will exceed the percent­ ages of reservation. I am sure that the House MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The Home will welcome this decision. Minister will take note of it. And .Sheilaji is also here. Fi;1ally. let me conclude by saying that we have lived for thousands of years with ( In'terruptions) this scourge of discrimination against Sched­ uled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. Social THE MINISTtR OF STATE IN THE discrimination against these groups of people MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS continuo in SOCiety today. It IS our hope that AND MINISTER OF STATE IN THE PRIME one day all members of t~e Scheduled Castes MINISTER'S OFFICE (SHRIMATI SHEILA and Scheduled Tribes will enjoy such equal­ DIKSHIT): I am the one on whom atrocities ity in education, opportunity and advance­ are committed. ment that we can definitively place behind us the sad and heart-rending story o! centuries SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: She repre­ of discrimination. Till that day COr.1es, we ill sents women and I represent atrocities. the Government are pl~dged to protective discrimination ar.d to affirmative action in [ Translation] favour of the Scheduled Castes and Sched· uled Tribes. Thank you. (Interruptions) SHRI BALWANT SINGH RAMOOW· ALIA (Sangrur): Sister Sheilaji is such a nice SHnl B.D. PATIL (Kolaha): What about lady that we cannot even think that the Mandai Commissic,n. atrocities mig~t be commItted on her.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: It is not the Mr. Deputy Spea~er. Sir, I considpr subject today. myself to be fortunate to have an opportunity to I aise such a serious matter in the House. It is a matter of great regret t~at atrocities are DISCUSSION UNDEH RULE 19:3 committed upon wOrPen In a country where mother Sita is worshipped and they !alk of 14.12 h. s. pa~ing highest regards to women in the Mahabharta and where there have been ATROCITIES ON WOMEN many great women In this country, there has been Runi Jhansi who too!~ part in struggle for freedor" and whelo suc:, noble ladies were born, who brought ,,, a corr.plete and MR. DEPUTY SPE/,KE.P.: Nowwe shall radical charge in India. In sur.h a country it is take up OiSclJssion on the atrocities on a matter of great shame and regret that such women. things happen here. india is a country where Guru Nanak Dev &aid In Guru Granth Sa­ [ rr.lnslation1 hib:- "Eas Kyon M.:lnda Akhiyai, Jis Jamp. SHRI BALWANT SINGH RAMOOW· Aajaan." 85 Disc. on Atrocities VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA) on Women 86

why should this land of ours be called a their role here in this country? When she is barren land? Whicp has produced inumer­ mere a child, she prays for her brother, in her able number of kings and great devotees? It youth she prays for her husband and when IS a matter of great shame that there have she has attained motherhood, she sacrHices been the incidents of atrocities on women her body to keep the humanity alive. Inspite whIch are moreover on the increase. I would of this, I would like to make a mention of this like to refer to the following in this connec­ penod of injustice and atrodties through tIon: which we are passing and where undue advantage IS being taken of the weakntlss [English] and poverty of our women folk in the name of dowry. In a written reply to a question of Mr. H.B. Patil, Shri P. Chidambaram said that the [English] number of cases of rape were 7308 in 1986 and it has risen to 12036 in 1988. 75% of the crime agamst women are com­ mitted by the police and af1tl-social elements. [ Translation] They at e protected even by the political forces. Shn Chldambaram has stated in his state­ ment that such incidents have increased. As [ Translation] I teel It, the atrocities committed on the women have been heart rending. It has been All these things, I would like to bring to the stated about Jahanabad in Bihar: notice of the Hon'ble Mln·ster. Politicians protect those people who commit atrocIties [English] on women. This IS agaln~t the traditions, prestige and accepted norms of morality of The raiders raped the women several times our ~ountry. Atrocities are committed on the over at gun point. Those who tried to resist ladles There are InCidents of their murders were beaten. After the heInous crime, the and Illegal detention and also the cases of men looted cash and other belongings of the rape on women who are sexually exploited poor labourers. They went otf firing In the aIr and face pJ,yslcal harassmnn1. Not only thiS, towards bigha Village. The guard of the kiln even the cases of atrocltlAS 0:1 expectant Hardev Yadav of Mustlchak who attemptpd and nursing mi)thers are there In our coun­ to check the gangsters was h.llled. try. J would mention It IlPre In thf? House that the ladles are put to humlilatlor through [ Translation] dIfferent advertlsemer,tc; which are definitely against the accepted prt1c11CCS a.."d prestige Such is the position there that even the of female. Whether we, the p80ple of thl~ D.I.G and the police did not help, though the c.ountry, Will allow undeSirable dIsplay of the Government has got Immense power of Idw female body for the purpo:,f.j of Increasl:1Q givan to th~m by the people and there are the sale of a soap or somA 011, 0" to promotp. Lady Ministers In the Government Itself dnd bUSiness actiVitIes or for our profiteering lady members «re there ever. In the legIsla­ object which IS against tt"l> prestige of our tures and 3. number of WOf"len officers In the country and the ruman·v:)lues held In high administration and we ar~ known for guard­ esteem In thl.5 cOlJn+ ry Hpnce there IS np~d Ing the honour of womenfolk all over the to pay attention to It. It IS evprywhere that the world We have respect for the laldAs and we laOle~, engaged ;n small Jobs are being ex­ stand for it Inspitp of that ~uch atrOCities are plOited. I take 'sati system a3 the baro~rtc being committed on women In thiS country. murder cf women Such cnmlnal tenJenCl')s What can be more shameful and unfortunate ilke 'satl' should not fmd a pl;:,ce fn the noble than these things here. We bow our hedds in traditions of our great COIIf'try. That w;:.s the revorence to the wom&n In India. What IS creation of a few expIO"~rs who had therr MAY 12,1989 87 Disc. on Atrocities on Women 88

[She Balwant Singh Ramoowalia] thing more. 'dr. J. Vergeese of Kerala Uni­ versity has conducted a study in this regard hold on the society. They made it binding on on the basis of which he has claimed that the widowed young wife of a man to take a plunge into fire bedecked a" over her body in {English] ornaments and with a suhaag mark on her 1orehead. They must have thought that having LA.S. and Central Services Officials, Doc­ taker. a plunge into fire, the girl would turn tors and Chartered Accountants fetch the into ashes and they would collect all the gold highest price in the matrimonial market. from her ashes. That is also a form of looting. Government should pay attention to it. ( Translation)

[English] This is the factual position.

Dowry deaths which were reported to police SHRIMATI BIBHA GHOSH GOSWAMI had risen from 999 in 1985 to 1787 in 1987. (Nabadwip): This is the position only in respect of Government employment. It is not [ Trans/ationj so at other places.

There have been the cases of dowry deaths SHRI BALWANT SINGH RAMOOW­ in Gujarat. Though this House, I would like to ALIA: I would like to mention that these toll the whole country that the women be­ people despite their occupying very high longing not only to poor classes but also to positions in the Government drawing the the rich families have dip.d on account of highest amount of salaries, are priced high­ aowry. est evcn in the marriage market. They also command highest resppct in the society SHRI VIR SEN (Khurja): It is the rich people because of their power wielding positions. who kill them. The poor people do not kill That is the position. Thpre is a famous fe­ them. male singer in our area named Narindra Bibi whose daughter was burnt to death by her SHRI BALWANT SINGH RAMOOWALIA' It son-In-law who was an M.B. B.S. and the girl is correct. wa$ also an M.B.B.S. but inspite of all these facts, she was burnt to death. Hence it i~ a [Eng/ish] matter of serious consideration by us as to how to get the women have their due rights Mr. D.P. S~ .enaofGorclkpurUniverslty in the prevailing circumstances. Said that dowry system in not an ancient pr~ctic£ in India. But the increasing Inci­ [English] dence of dowry dispues, leading to domestic vivlence and deaths of women has co:-r,­ The Union Home Ministry has issued a paratively risen in urban middle and lewer number of circulars reg;:jrdlng rise in crimes middle cl.:lss phenornenon. Another impor­ against women. Unfortunately, haws and tant factor is that dowry victims were. g~l,er­ circulars by themselves cannot solve the aUy, found in tradition-ridden high-caste problem. families, which observed the pattern of marriage within the caste and overv/helming [ Translation] major;ty of the do~.ry deaths that is, 60% were in Brahmins; 20% in Vaishnava Com­ As at present, there are a number of laws to :Tlunity; 20% in Kshatriyas and 0% in Sched­ that ~ffect and orders are also issued from uled Castes. time to time in this conn~('tion. It is. there­ fore, a matter of senous concern for us and [ Translation] we ~hou,d find out the reason~ for which the problem i3 not being solved. What is the Sir, thdt is the r ~ition.1 would liketo savona pre!Jent position of womn" In our society? ~isc. on Atrocities VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) on Women 90

The basic thing which comes to my mind is mary trial in special courts in the cases of the attitude of the criminals who are nor rape, molestation and dowry deaths. Sec­ afraid to commit such crimes against or ondly many persons take recourse to the atrocities on women. I would like to place all change of their religion to humifiate their those reasons before this august House. Till presont wives and to marry for the second date not a single ruffian involved in molesting time after their conversion as a muslim. hundreds of girls in St. Stephens and Hindu There have been many such cases where College of Delhi on the occasion of Holi people changed their religion only to marry festival in 1988 has been punished. Same for a se,."nd time. thing had happened during Delhi riots. Has anybody been punished? Women are the [English] worst victims whenever riots break out in any part of the country. In riots of November While a second marriage is not considered 1984 in Delhi, nearly 2200 Sikh women an offence under the MuslIm Personal Law, became widow, but till date nothing has been a marriage by conversion should not be held done for them except the 200 widows reha­ valid in a court of law, unless a husband has bilitated. Nobody took an initiative for them. divorced his first wife. No less a person like The Punjab police is committing atrocities on the Shahi Imam of the Jamma Masjid of women as is reported by the newspapers Delhi has stated that he would not convert a daily on the charge of giving shelter to terror­ Hindu to Islam if his purpose in becoming a IstS. Can the sleeping women confronted by Muslim is to marry agam. terrorists armed with A.K. 47 Rifles on the .farms at night refuse to cook food for them. [ Translation] In view of all these things the Government should be rational. The condition of women Most of these cases are reported from the In the age group 18 to 25 years is the worst. educated class. Easy method evolved for Nearly 80 percent dowry deaths are re­ second marriagp is the conversion. ported in respect of this age group and rest 20 per cent from the women in the age group My third suggestion is to file damages up to 35 years. A very good thing has come suit of Rs. 5 lakh to 10 lakh against the to my notice that there is no incident of dowry persons committing atrocities on women to death in case of intercaste marriages. For help the victims along WIth the imposition 01 rooting out this evil, to my mind, intercaste heavy penalty on such persons. The Gov­ marriages should be encouraged. I would ernment is requested to refer to the guide­ like to state one more thing. It is also the lines issued by the Chief Justice of the Punjab responsibilIty of society to safeguard the High Court tothe lower courts to give punish­ rights of illiterate poor women of the rural ment in addition to the imposition of heavy areas as well as those of the urban areas, fines on the accused and out of the heavy besides ensuring the security of a few Eng­ fines so collected, larger part of the amount lish speaking highly educated women and should go to the victtms. those in the top ranking positions. Here I may ask the Government to cite Sir, in this connection I would like to give the name of even a single officer who was b or 6 suggestions. My first sugges.tion is for awarded for his commendable work and the setting up of an independent authority to initiating action in the cases of atrocities Inquire into all type of cases of atrocities against women and dowry deaths in his against women and cases of dowry deaths district, area, tehsil or subdIvision adding a to file cases in the courts and arrest the grace to the name of that place where he was persons found guilty therefor. Police, the posted or to ene an instance of rescuing a prosecution authority should be independ­ person from the clutches of atrocities. But till Ql?t and vested with all the powers required this day no such award has been given. ,. the purpose and there should be sum- Contrary to that the officers whosoever .. 91 Disc. on Atrocities MAY 12,1989 on Women 92

[Sh. Balwant Singh Ramoowalial H you see the medieval history. ladies like Jahanara Begam. Roshanara Begam, steps against the persons committing atroci­ Nurjahan Begam and other em inent ladies ties on women were transferred before the played a great role. In our present day hIS­ completion of their term. Therefore as a tory, you will find that Kamla Nehru, Basanti fourth suggestion I would like to request the Devi, Matangni Hazra and Indira Gandhi Government to evolve a mechanism for played a great role. We are very proud of appreciating and rewarding the officers for Shrimati Indira Gandhi, late Prime Minister the valour they show in taking action in such of India, who lost her life for the sake of the cases. The Government should give incen­ country. tive to such persons. Sir, women In India constitute the single As regClras lne cases of dowry deaths, largest group of backward citizens. It is a fact I would like to say that if a girl after her that atrocities on women are increasing day marriage writes a letter complaining of the by day. Sometimes, it may be because of demands of dowry by the in-laws, the Police dowry, sometimes molestation, ~ometimes Officer incharge of the respective Police rape and sometimes other atrocities. OUf Station should open a file for the purpose of Prime Minister, Shri RaJiv Gandhi has been record immediately after receiving the very trying his best to uplift the women. He feels first letter from the girl in that regard. As the strongly about the rights of women. He has in laws demand dowry in the first instance also said that our march into the 21 st century and then they continue to demand some would be seriously undermined if women are thing or the other and last of all, these things left behind. culminate into the death of the girl. There­ fore, in cases of dowry deaths, the police What do we find in reality today? It is a should maintain the number and date wjse fact that the lives of those women who are record of the complaiAts to present the same involved in political life are not safe. I know in the court as a proof. Under the terrorists that from my experience being in the political Act, all the family members on the In laws field myself. The life of those women who are side above 18 years of age should be con­ In the administration is not safe. I am not victed for harbouring the criminals respon­ blaming the lower, the middle class or the sible for killing the daughter-in-law. For ,lIfterate people, but the fact IS that the atrocl­ checking dowry deaths, the family members tl9s'On women are coming from the rich and should be convicted up to 3 years of impris­ from the educated people, from the admInI­ onment for being a party to the killing of the stration, and from the high officials. I, there­ daughter-in-law by the mother-in-law. With fore, strongly condemn those who exploIt these words I conclude. the women. That needs to be put an end to ,mmediately. [English] As the time IS limited, I would not elabo­ KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE rate on the points that have already been (Jadavpur): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir,lwould touched upon by Shri Ramoowalia. like to congratulate Shri Ramoowalia who has raised this discussion in this august The hon. Minister, Shrimati Margaret House. Alva, is aware that in the last session also In this House, we had raised the issue of mur­ We are proud of our Inolan women who der of Supriya, grand daughter·in-Iaw, at the have played a great role throughout our past 1esidence of one Chief Minister. Why I am history. If you go through the early Indian telling this is because these things happen history, we will find that Indian women like even in such responsible quarters. It is not a S~a, Savitri, Damyanti, Khana Leelawati, matter of opposition or the rulling party. Sir, 8.ti Arundati and others left a mark behind. I fight for the genuine cause. Dr. Phulrlrw 93 Disc. on Atrocities VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA) on Women 94

Guha ;, a senior Member of the Parliament. PWD Minister ... (Interruptions) She is an ex-Central minister also. She had one major accident and when she went to How allegedly he tore her sari. .. (Inter­ the hospital, she was not anowed to enter ruptions) into the hospital. If it is not atrocity, it is injustice which is equivalent to atrocity. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please or­ der, order. Regarding Ms. Jayalalitha also, you know how she was hum iliated and assaulted AN HON. MEMBER: Sir. is it the forum inside the legislature. You know the circum­ to raise this point? stances under which the resignation letter of the leader of the Opposition in the Tamil MR. OE:PUlY SPEAKf;R: Please or­ Nadu legislative Assembly was unauthori­ der, order. Take your seat. tatively and illegally seized by the Police under the instructions of the Tamil Nadu KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE: Sir, Chief Minister. After that the police denied maybe she is an actress, but she is a public the fact and the Police Commissioner said representative and no Ministercan humiliate that this was-the zerox copy and they did her like this. Every woman in this country has not get the true copy. Sir, I have this docu­ her respect. A Minister is a responsible per· ment and I can lay it on the Table of the son and he just cannot tear sari o~ a lady. The House after my speech. This is a genui~e PWD Minister roughed her up. It is not a document. This is a document from the Police party matter. I agree that the Chief Minister Mahajan. The police has written: lOA blue . never agreed with it but he did not eVen take letter pad in a sealed cover addressed to the my action in this regard. She is a politician Speaker was found. When it was opened a and if her life is not safe and if she is not letter written by Ms. Jayalalitha, MLA dated allowed to attend the Assembly, then what 15.3.89 was found." This is the letter and if would be the position for other women. If an you want I can lay it on the Table of the AIADMK leader, who is a lady, is not al­ House. I can challenge that if my grievance lowed to attend the House, where is the IS not genuine, then anybody can bring a question of protection to other women. We privilege motion against me. I would request have discussed atrocities on women in this the Minister to suspend this Police Commis­ house several times. sIoner. I would like to know as to why the Police Commissioner told like that. This is Therefore, I would request the hon. the document which I have got from the Minister, who ~s also a woman, to conduct an Police file. When I got it from there, how can inquiry regarding assautt on the AJADMK he say that he only received a zerox copy? leader. You should take proper action so that So, my request is that you should suspend not only Miss Jayalafitha but also women like him. I would say that the police is on the back Shrimati Goswami, Mrs. Guha and others of these atrocities. are protected. Therefore, I would urge upon the han. Minister to see that the honour and Madam, I have a newspaper with me. It life of every women of this country should be is not Hindustan Times or National Herald or protected. Secondly, I want to raise another TImes of India or the Statement but it is the very important issue. We Mave got the Dowry Indian Express. They have published the Prohibition Act. It was amended in 1984 and photographs of Ms. Jayalalitha. How she also in 1986 in order to make it more strigent. was humiliated inside the Assembly. I am not The Indian Penal Code, the Criminal Proce­ raising this issue for any political reason. I dure Code and also the Indian Evidence Act am raising tt because Madam, as you know, were amended to deai effectively not only sari is an ornament of a woman. In our with the dowry deaths but also to deal effec- ~angla we say, 'Shri Nan Abhushan', i.e. sari tively with cruelty on women. It is a fact that IS an ornament of a woman. But how did the this august House has passed so many laws 95 Oisc. on Atrocities MAY 12.1989 on Women 96

[Kumar; Mamata Banerjee] , would request the hon. Minister to introduce a forum where the Government of but there is no proper implementation of India can directly investigate the case, where those laws. The fact is that mostly the atroci­ the Government of India can directly inter. ties on women are committed by the high vene or where the Government of India can class families, the family of judges, the poli­ take action against such people. You have ticians' family and so on. Because of their got the Dowry Prohibition Act wherein it is influence, the people are not getting justice. mentioned that if any woman is killed wtthin Therefore, I would say, "Good money-good seven years of marriage, the Government law, good money-good justice and good can punish the in-laws. money-good barrister." That is why, these things are going on. There is a law but it is not implemented properly. One Swedish woman came to Calcutta. She was raped by two BSF Jawans. In a I had mentioned this case of Rajasthan village in Bihar, the police people have gang Congress MLA last year also. One Congress raped the woman. I do not know why such MLA killed his four children, four daughter things are going on. In Assam also, the Bodo because if infanticide. This man should be Agitation has started. You know how the expelled from the Party. I am not saying police are torturing the women. Even there about Congress or Communist, but this is a

the lives of women are not safe. So, this is matter of concern. Madam I you can see that the position. I would request the hon. Minis­ report, being an MLA he should be a respon­ ter to see that proper justice is given to the SIble person. You see the report that it IS women of the country. Wherever proper confirmed, "Infanticide by Rajasthan MLA's justice is not given, the Government should family". What is this? come forward and see that they get proper justice. ( Interruptions)

Now I want to cite one particular case. Why are you laughing? This is a serious One lady by name Mrs. Soma Chatterjee matter. was married on 5.12.88. Afterfour months of her marriage, I received a letter from her AN HON. MEMBER: It is a serious father that she was murdered. She was matter. married in Allahabad. The police says that according to postmortem report, she has THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE commhted suicide. But when her father DEPARTMENTS OF YOUTH AFFAIRS AND pressurised that it was not a suicide case but SPORTS AND WOMEN AND CHILD DE· it was a murder case; then, the second VElOPMENT IN THE MINISTRY OF postmortem of the body took place. Then It HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT was made clearthatthat was a murdercase. (SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA): Because Now what happened? It came to the notice it is female infanticide they are laughing. that her husband had murdered her. HIS name was Shri Ram Chatterjee. After four SHRI BALWANT SINGH RAMOOW­ days, due to infl~ence of his maternal uncle ALIA: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if anybody who may be a judge, he got a bail from the laug~s when Kumari Mamata Banerjee is Court. So, what I want to say is that this speaking it will also tantamount to atroc~ies young woman was murdered only after four on woman...... (/nt8"uptions) months of her marriage. She was only 20 years old. What I want to bring to your notice [English] is that if anywhere the relative of the victim is a judge or the police or fOf; that matter if the KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE: If this Government is involved, then people won't is their attitude here then what can we expect get proper justice. from the opposition? What can we expect? " 97 DIsC. on Atrocities VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) on Women 98 their behavior is like this, in this august I want to point out about Shri Khilanand House, what witt they do outside, I do not Jha. He was wc,rking in Bihar; he married a knoW. (/ntenvptions) Har;jan lady. The Government said that if an upper caste man marries a lower caste lady, [ Translation] he would get some cred~. After that he married her. What is the harm? We welcome SHRI SVED MASUDAL HOSSAIN it. But after he married this Harijan lady, he (Murshidabad): I appreciate their sentiments. was dismissed. That is very bad. I would like But whatever has happened in Tamil Nadu to r9quest that his services should be restore­ Assembly. cannot be discussed here in dar he should be reinstated immediately. Parliament...... (Interruptions) I would also like to request you to see [English] that proper implementation of laws takes place in our country. Secondly, proper pub- MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order, or- . llcity through the media should be given. der. Because TV and Radio are popular media they should be used to give publicity. The SHRI P. KOLANDAIVELU (Gobichetti­ Press also is doing very well. But there palayam): Even the Assembly is not safe for should be a constant endeavourto strengthen women. (Interruptions) these media.

KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE: Thirdly, to create consciousness among Women are not safe because of the Opposi­ the women we have to eradicate illiteracy in tion people. (Interruptions) women.

Madam, you see the Rajasthan MLA's I suggest that a lady Police Officer should case. Please do not disturb. This is not your be appointed in every district to look afterthe matter. (Interruptions) grievances of women.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mamataji, Our Government is setting up so many you address the Chair. committees like the Parliamentary Commit­ tee for the Welfare of the Scheduled Castes, KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE: They and other committees also. I would like to are not ha' ing any specific case. But I am request you to set up a Parliamentary having a IJery specific case here. So, I am Committee for Women, to look after the giving the specific documents. If you are women and to look Into the grievances of ready you can see. The police confirmed women. Women are also minorities now. Infanticide by a Rajasthan MLA's family. As Somebody may be treating women as a the Police have confirmed it action should be weaker section, though we are not weak. We taken. do not even want any undue advantage from men. Sometimes people say that women are My party always protects the rights of the poor class, they are the neglected class. minorities, and my party always protects the But I think that as a woman I am proud. We nghts of Scheduled Castes and Tribes, and do not want any help from men. But we want my party always protects the rights of women. equal opportunities to work with men in the We should take proper action against him. I field. I do not discriminate between men and would request that the Party may expel this women. We are equals, we are the same member. This type of member should not people. We should have equal rights, we Continue as a Congress (I) member. should have equal opportunities. We want to work together In the field. But there should I do not want to speak anything more. not be any discrimination between men and but I want to give some specific suggestions. women in this country. If this discrimination 99 Disc. on Atrocities MAY 12.1989 on Women 100

[Kumari Mamata Banerjee] cinema show at night. If the Government has failed to provide security to women in this goes on, then our country will not improve. capital itself, then how can we take seriously W. are go1ng towards the 21st century, we all the things that are said from the Treasury are looking forward to the 21 st century. But benches regarding uplift of women, regard· HoUr attitude does not change, this country ing how they will not leave us women behind will not survive; and that is why I also believe while going to the 21 st century and regarding sometimes that women are also responsible that wonderful piece of high-sounding noth .. for this situation-some women; I am not ing which is called NPP-National Perspec­ speaking about all women, butsomewomen. tive Plan for Women? That is why I believe that it is the women who have to come forward to solve these prob­ One might legitimately ask how much of lems; and they have to take part from the this talk is sincere and how much is merely grassroots level to the decision-making lev­ populist propaganda during an election year. els, to solve their problems. Even according to Government statistics, crimes against women have registered a SHRIMATI BIBHA GHOSH GOSWAMI sharp increase in all aspects, both Within and (Nabadwip): Sir, I would first entreat you not outside the family. These include dowry to ring the bell, because I would be as brief mu'rders, widow-burning, rape, wife-beat­ as possible, and I WIll not take much time. ing. female foeticide and infanticide, witch­ hunting, virginity test, Devadasi system, I am glad that thiS issue has come to prostitution, increasing desertion etc. Parliament, because we rarely get a chance to talk about women's issues. But discussion I have got the figures that are available alone IS never enough. More important is here. I refer to Unstarred Question No. 4434 action and implementation of the laws, and dated 3.4.1989. the consensus arrived at in this House Therefore, Government seems to be very 15.00 hrs. long on rhetoric, and very short on actual implementation at the ground level. In fact, Now, I am not going into the statistics, I non-implementation of existing laws, how­ am taking them for granted because it will ever inadequate they may be, is a reflection take more time. If we take a close look at the of the Jack of political will on the part of thiS statistics on various types of atrocities on Government. women for different States, we find that such atrocities tend to be highest in five States of Take the case of Delhi. This is the the country, all of which share some com­ capital of India, the citadel of the ruling party, mon features. I am not shielding the other the place where our Prime Minister lives. States because this malady is pervading In Why is it that right here in Delhi, we have by all the States all over the country. These five far the largest number of cases of eveteas­ States are Uttar Pradesh. Madhya Pradesh, ing, and one of the highest number of cases Bihar, Rajasthan and Maharashtra. of dowry deaths? It has got a small popula­ tion. But in 1986, according to Government Is this an accident that all these five statistics, there were 64 dowry deaths; in States also figure at the top when we look at 1987, 79 dowry deaths and in 1988. 84 the figures released by the Commissioner of dowry deaths. Despite its small population Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes compared to other States. the cases of kid­ regarding atrocities on scheduled castes napping of women, rape and molestation and tribes? These five States together ac­ were also abnormally high. Why is it that one counl for 85-90 per cent of such atrocities in hardly sees women in Connaught Circus the whole country? Is this also an accident after 8 p.m.? Very few women would dare to that, barring Mahar~shtra. the other four board a bus alone at night, or go to the States which are in the Centre, that is North- 101 Disc. on Atrocities VAISAKHA 22. 1911 (SAKA) on Women 102

em Hindi bett, are also among the most Mohan La' Pawar. ASlliving in Model Town. backward in terms of a wide range of social Police Lines, here in Delhi who beat his wife and economic indicators? Are these also not Geetanjali so that both her hands were frac­ the States where female I~eracy is the low­ tured? The Kingsway Camp Police Station est, infant mortality is the highest, and fe­ refused to record her complaint and only male infanticide is so high that ~ would put after the Janabadi Mahila Samiti staged a even the most shameless male chauvinist to mass demonstration of women that they shame? These are not accidents. This is not took some action. But whether the aetton a mere coincidence that in these very States was only for show or for real remains to be the performance of the State Governments seen. in the field of land reform has been the poorest. We still hear about landlords with Now lcometothe case of the Rajasthan thousands of acres of land-which, of course, MlA about whom Kumari Mamata Banerjee are kept illegally with the full knowledge of has already mentioned. She has also re­ the authorities, who would not dare to touch ferred to the reports in the Press. It is said: them? We hear about private senas to terror­ ise their tenants and agricultural labourers, 'The MLA himsen was charged with and to suppress them when they demand killing two of his newborn daughters, Implementation of their legal rights. We hear including one who was born after his of mass murders and gang rapes repeatedly election to the Vidhan Sabha in 1986." from these States. What we saw in Deorala, that is widow burning, or the gang rape at What action has been taken against him? Pararia in Bihar are expressions of decadent Why has he not been put behind the bars and semi-feudal culture of the sixteenth century. convicted of murder? Now, according to the Now very little has been done so far to rectify reports the Chief Minister is backing him all these abuses by the ruling party and their along. Government as they depend on the patron­ age of the very same people who perpetrate Now, with your permission. I would refer such crimes. Is it an accident that all these to the remarks of a senior Minister of the five States plus Delhi are ruled by Congress­ Government of India, which puts the ques­ I? May I ask what measures the C.Ms or tion of credibility of this Government in ques­ M. Ps from these places have taken to put a tion. I am talking about Shri Vasant Sathe. stop to these practices? Why are the rapists We are used to all kindsof statements coming of Pararia still at large? Why is it that imme­ from this gentleman. But his one exceeds all diately after the ousting of the left Front limits. The reports says. I quote from the Government in Tripura, gang rape by mili­ Statesman of 21-2-1989. tary occurred on tribal women in Ujan Maidan and other places? Why is it that the offenders "He told a shocked audience in Nagpur in most cases are either men of the landlords that there was nothing wrong with sex or the custodians of law and order them­ determination tests, and compared selves-police and military? As I have them with abortion which ;s now legal mentioned on an earlier occasion, rape by and enjoys a degree of social sanction. custodians of Jaw is not an aberration but has The Union Energy Minister went on to become an instrument of class or political add that since the sex determination vendetta and it has been possible because test was carried out to ascertain Government lacks the political will to punish whether the foetus was of an unwanted the culprits. If the Governments is unable to female, it amounted to aborting a child contror its own men, what guarantee is there that ;s not wanted ... Mr. Sathe went on that the police personnel would maintain to argue that if men outnumbered necessary vigil against such atrocities? women, the "Iatterwoutd be in demand and offered dowry". In other words, What action has been taken against organized female foeticide would 103 Disc. on Atrocities MAY 12,1989 on Women 1(14

[Smt. Bibha Ghosh Goswami] by fighting against this regime, fighting it out of power and our only hope is in the unprece­ change the existing man: woman ratio dented awakening of democratic forces in­ and promote the concept of bride price." cluding women in this country to attain that immediate goal. Now, if this is the argument, why not kill haH the women and thereby further increase the THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE demand for the remaining haff in the coun­ DEPARTMENTS OF YOUTH AFFAIRS AND try? SPORTS AND WOMEN AND CHILD DE­ VELOPMENT IN THE MINISTRY OF I would request the Prime Minister to HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT clarify whether this is indeed the vie", of the (SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA): Sir, if the Government or not. H not, Shri Sathe must· hon. Member has tried to observe that there resign fro the Ministry and from Parliament have never been any atrocities on women in The ruling party and the Government at thE; Bengal, I can give the statistics. (Interrup­ Centre and in the States are squarely re­ tions) sponsible for the present escalation of atroci­ ties on women in this country. Atrocities on? MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order. Do Women have become an integral part of not waste the time of the House. We are atrocities on the downtrodden masses of having hardly one hour. people. Shri Brajamohan Mohanty. The ruling party and its Government have failed to carry out land reforms, free SHRI BRAJAMOHAN MOHANTY and compulsory education, especially edu-. (Puri): Sir, at the outset, I am constrainetJ to cation for women. They have refused to . observe that the cause of women is not only enshrine right to work as a Fundamental sacred to women but it is sacred to all the Right in the Constitution, thereby denying people of the country. I am sorry to say that women the most important factor in raising political partisan spirit has been introduced their status which is economic independ­ intothe movement, which is very much harm­ ence. Their economic policy is throwing. ful for the ultimate success of the women thousands of women out of job thereby ren­ movement. dering them totally and utterly helpless and prey to atroc~ies. Their policy of compro­ mise with all sorts of fundamentalists, com­ On 13th March, 1989, in reply to the munalist, revivalist and obscurantist forces question, whether the offences/atrocities on is responsible for a sharp increase of crime women have increased, the Minister replied against women in the name of religion. They IYes'. The Minister has said that dowry cannot take action against the landlords and deaths, rape cases, molestation of women! their men as these are their 'vote banks' and girls, abduction of girls/women, and kidnap­ they are responsible for the continuance of ping of minor girls have increased. Further the semi-feudal values and cu~ure which the Minister observed that the increase in deny equal rights to women and see them as population and rapid changes in socio-eco­ beasts of burden and objects of lust. nomic conditions are mainly major reasons for the increase. The increase in population How are their media depicting the means increase of women also. Why does it women? In conclusion, I say that, in orderto affect adversely the women? And why is it fight the atrocities on women, women have that rapid changes in socio-economiccondi­ to fight the Congress (I) policies and Govern­ tions adversely affect the women? My sub­ ment. The status of women cannot be re­ mission would be, let it be examined in depth ;tored or raised by this Government or along as to why such adverse effects are taking !lith this Government. It can be restored only place. 105 Disc. on Atrocities VAtSAKHA22. 1911 (SAKA) on Women 106

I would like to submit one thing about reflect$ thereby. I do not say that this is the West Bengal because my h~n. friend from order of the life. Women may not be decently CPM said that if the Congress Government dressed. But what about men? Somebody goes out of power, there will be no women said that widows can commit sati voluntarily. problem in the country (Inte"uptions) I do But what about men? If the wife dies, is not know why the leadership of her party has husband supposed to commit sati? put these things through her. She is nice and uncontroversial. n;s a very complicated dimension of the problem. Recently an analysis in Soviet Union Sir, in West Bengal, Women's Griev­ showed that out of 100 cases of marriage, 56 ances Redressal Cell, South 24-Parganas cases ended in divorce. This is the reason has been set up in the year 1987. The Cell why juvenile delinquency is increasing. They primarily deals with the offences against are now thinking of glorification of marriages women in South 24-Parganas Distrjct. It has and glorification of parentage because that recorded 185 rape cases during the past would be the ultimate solution of the prob­ three years. If in one district there could be lem. In Hungary now oompetition is going on 185 rape cases during the past three years, in the name of 'best breast of Budapest'. This then what will bethe state of affairs of the rest is degradation of culture particularly in a Districts. Only twenty per cent of the rape communist country. Recently in an Id prayer cases are being reported tathe police station in Peshawar in Pakistan, the kazi bemoaned and the rest are not reported to the police that the Head of the State of the Islamic State station. That is the figure. With that back­ is a woman. So, this problem is there all over ground, the dimension of the problem we the world. Recently one lady Harris Barbara can imagine ...... (InterrupUons) was elected as a Bishop of the Anglican Church and all over the Christian world there Now I tell the House about a case of has been a lot of protest againstthat. So, this rape. Justice Krishna Iyer has observed that problem has got international dimensions from top to bottom the judges are not sympa­ and we have to fight against it. We should thetic in handling cases involving women build up women consciousness, we should causes. I am placing before the House Suman build up women awakening all over the Rani case i.e. a rape case. The High Court country so that we can fight it out. It is not a gave the punishment of ten years but in the party programme, it is a national programme Supreme Court it was reduced to 5 years and all parties should be committed to it, and because of her past history. So far as past I believe, as Indians we are oommitted to it. history of the lady who has been raped is concerned, it is not a material consideration. So far as the figure of unemployment is The material consideration is that she had concerned, comparatively women are more been raped without her consent. Will the in number. So far as the discrimination in hon. Minister consider examining the statute wages is concerned, the women are suffer­ so that judicial discretion is not exercised in ing from that. There has been a recommen· favour of the culprit? dation for amending the Inheritance Law, particularly with regard to Hindus. Sam a is Now I come to the international dimen­ the case with Marriage Laws. So, we have to sion.ln Malaysia, a very stringent law against do something to see that women are brought rape was debated in Parliament. But unfor­ at per with. men. Unless we do that, we tunately MPs there talked loosely. They said cannot achieve the results. that if women dress decently, there would be no rape case. Revealing clothes and sexy I am very happy that the Prtme Minister walks are invitation. This is unfortunate. Mrs. is taking personal interest to see that women Irina Fernandes, President of All Women are brought at,par with men and he is trying Action Committee said that they were dis­ his level best for that. But ultimately it is the gusted by their behaviour. Male chaunism women who have to fight for their own cause. 107 Disc. on Atrocities MAV 12, 1989 on Women 108

(Sh. Braja Mohan Mohanty] immemorial. Today, we feel proud of the past, and claim that we are a very highly So, they must unite and fight against it. We advanced society. We feel proud of our have even amended the Constitution also. In achievements. But, alas, along with our the Chapter on Fundamental Duties, we advancement the civil practices like dowry have said that we shall not indulge in prac­ deaths are on the constant increase Shri· tices derogatory to the dignity of women. So, mati Indira Gandhi rules the country some­ for that we have amended the Constitution time ago. Now here son is in the saddle. itself. But all the same, there must be women Dowry deaths are on the increase even consciousness and they must have the since they staned ruling the country. We strength and unity tofightfortheir own cause. claim ourselves to be a civilised society. But The Government should take adequate steps are we behaving in such a dignified way so for their economic independence, for im­ as to do justice to our claim. Or are we proving their social status and for giving behaving in a monstrous and barbaric way them political representation. Then only we quite contrary to our claim? To what an can go some steps ahead. With these words, extent the Government is responsible for I conclude. Thank you very much. such atrocities? How is that the Government has failed in contrOlling those atrocities. On [ Trans/ation] self intraspection, it will become clear that the failure of administrative machinery is ·SHRI K. RAMACHANDRA REDDY mainly responsible for the growing atrocities (Hindupur): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I con­ on women. They have a tendency to look gratulate Shri Balwant Singh Ramoowalia down upon women. They do not treat the for raising a discL'ssion on the atrocities on women the way they ought to. women in the House. One of the Manus said long long ago that 'women do not deserve Sir, one of the main reasons for the freedom'. But it is a saying of the past now. dowry deaths is the economic dependence This dictum does not apply to the modern of women. Women do not enjoy economic day society. It IS redundant and rejected freedom. Women are denied inheritance outright. Now women are competing with rights in their parents property. If a father has men in all spheres. Many of them are now three sons the property will be divided into highly educated. Women are enjoying equal four parts and each one gets 1/4 of the positions in varlous walks of life. In legisla­ property. Of his 1/4 share, father gives, if he tures, and other fora, administrative Offices, desires, some shareto his daughters. Hence, be it any sphere or walk ailiie, they are there 213 it is clear how an woman is deprived of and proveng their mettle. But, SIr, unfortu­ her right over property. It is this absence of nately.like men. ThiS advancement of women the right to property to right, which is making is limited to only a privileged few. Still major­ the women remain economically depend­ ~y of the women are very backward. The ent. Since they are economically not inde­ atrocities are being comm itted mostly on the pendent, they remain weak and atrocities on women who still remain backward. It is very them take place more and more. Atleast unfortunate. Atrocities are being committed now, when we are claim that we are march­ on women day in and day out. We come ing ahead and are about to enter 21 st cen­ across many dowry deaths every day. A tury, should try to confer property rights on civilised society hangs its head down in women. A man and an woman should enjoy shame for these atroc~ies. Even in those equal rights over property. " this is done, days when it was said that a women does not atrocities on wom@ll would come down auto­ deserve freedom, no dowry death had taken matically. Hence I request the Government place. Sir, this country enjoys a glorious to take measures to confer equal rights to past. Civilization touched its zenith on this property for men and women through a leg­ sacred soil. We were in the forefront of all the islation. I am proud to say that, the Andhra civilized nations on the earth from time Pradesh Government has already provided ·Translation of the speech originally delivered in Telugu. 109 Disc. on Atrocities VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) on Wom." 110

such a right by passing a bill four years ago. Strongly. the Central Government has ra .. After much dilly dallying consent was given mained as a silent spectator. In fact ~ is not by the President to that Bill very recently. in a position to take a definite stand. The The step of Government of Andhra Pradesh reason is that Rajasthan is under Congress should serve as a model to the entire coun­ I rule. Had it been an N.T.R. Government or try, and the persons who are at the helm in Jyoti Basu's Government, it would have been the centre should emulate Andhra example disQ'".issed immediately. This kind of double by conferring equal right to property on standard would only contribute to growing women. instances 01 atrocities. Wherever and when .. ever the Sati takes place, the concerned Though the women were denied free­ persons and states should be punished dom, they were held in high esteem during severely. If the Centre remains indifferent W the past. Both Indian and Greek epics reflect this practice takes place in Congress ruled the status of women during those days. States, then the action of the Central Gov­ Homer In his epic "Odessey" says '1he beauty ernment deserves to be condemned. I am of the women that launch thousand ships ashamed to see the helplessness displayed Into war". This shows how much they adored by the Central Government in this respect. It the women in those days. In Mahabharatha, is not merely sufficient to say that atrocities 18 akshowhinis of soldiers had to fight a war. on women are being committed. We have to The reason, the humiliation of an woman. work resolutely in order to see that these Ravana and his Rakshasa clan had to pay atrocities come to an end. These atrocities penalty for iII·treating Seetha. Such instances are more in Congress-ruled States like Ra­ are too many to quote. These inumerable Jasthan, U. P. and Bihar. There are several Instances show what a pride of place an legislations already which ban the evil prac­ woman occupied in those good old days. tices. Yet, they are not beIng implemented in Women enjoyed great respect even in those letter and spirit. Who is responsible for the days when the society was not that much failure in implementation? Atrocities are more advanced as it is today. Lord Krishna could In Congress ruled states than in Opposition not kill demon Naraka. His consort Satya ruled States. The Congress Party claims who had followed her husband to the battle that it is taking the country to 21 st Century. ground, oomes to the rescue of Krishna by Quite contrary to it we find the barbarian killing Narakasma. Lord Krishna appreciat­ practices being committed In the;rown States. Ing her mastery over the art of war and There is no use in saying that the 21st wonders whether there is any art or skill Century IS being ushered in as long as such which is beyond the comprehension of an evil practicGs like Sat. continue to exist. They women. If ~ is taught to her in nice way. It should stop sh~dding crocodile tears. If amply clear the that there is no sphere activ­ Government is really interested in the ity which is beyond the capability of an upliftment of women then the women have to woman. I wonder where that glory of the be given the right to property on par with woman has gone today? On one hand we men. Then only the imbalance between man find woman handling every kind of profes­ and woman can be removed. When women Sion, be it a typist or an administrator or an become econom ically independent, .natu­ able orator, on the other hand we find the rally the atrocities on them will diminish and women who are gullible and subjected to all the country can surge ahead into the 21st sorts of atrocities. Sati was in vogue centu­ Century. nes ago; An attempt is being made to revive this practice. But is surprising that Sat; is Once again I thank and congratulate getting enough encouragement in congress Shri Ramoowalia for raising this discussion ruled Rajasthan. Much publicity is being in the House. given there for Sati. Sati is an evil practice and should be condemned by one and aH. It I conclude my speech thanking you for is a slur on a civilised society like ours. giving me an opportunity to speak. 111 Disc. on Atrocities MAY 12.1989 on Women 112

(Eng/ish] would like to know why the issue of Ms. Jayalalitha cannot be raised here in the MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Now, Dr. House. Has she not been meted out an Rajhans may speak: But before he speaks, injustice? Mere this fact that she is an ac­ I would like to state that we started this tress does not permit us to put her to humili­ discussion around 2.15 p.m. instead of 2 ation just by tearing her clothes. p.m. Therefore, to that extent we will con­ tinue the debate up to 4.15 p.m. Afterwards [English] we are going to take up discussion on drink­ ing water problem at 4.15 p.m. Madam inter­ SHRI SOMNATH RATH: The ex-Chief venes at 3.00 p.m. Minister of Tamil Nadu was an actor so also is the Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh. THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE (Interruptions) DEPARTMENTS OF YOUTH AFFAIRS AND SPORTS AND WOMEN AND CHILD DE­ [ Translation] VELOPMENT IN THE MINISTRY OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT DR. G.S. RAJHANS: What I mean to (SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA): I need say is that Ms. Jayalal~ha incident which only 15 minutes. took place in Tamil Nadu is a sad reflection on the country as a whole and especially on MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Then you the ruUng party in Tamil Nadu. My colleague start at 3.45 p.m. because afterwards one showed the Indian Express with pictures of Member will be left. Ms. Jayalalitha in tattered clothes, the news­ paper which is often quoted in the House is SHAI VIJOY KUMAR YADAV: What not any other newspaper but the Indian about us? Express. What happened to Ms. Jayalamha is known to whole of the country. To inform MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I wi" call her party, family members and public, she you. It is only intervention. We will continue expressed on a piece of paper her desire to afterwards. We will take it up again on quit. But later she handed over the scaled Monday. envelope to a family friend ...... ** ...... for safe custody. The Intelligence Officer of the Now, Dr. Rajhans may speak. D.M.K. came to know about it and he ar- rested ...... ** ...... After arrest the officer [ Translation] manhandled the person at his residence and asked him to produce the letter. Having DR. G.S. RAJHANS (Jhanjharpur): Mr. received the letter he handed it over to the Deputy Speaker, Sir, the seriousness of the Assistance Commissioner of Police who in hon. Members on such a serious issue of turn handed it over to the Police Commis­ atrocities against women is reflected by the sioner. The Police Commissioner sent it to attendance in the House. the Home Secretary who further handed it to the Chief Minister and he declared that Really ~ is sad to discuss the issue of Kumari Jayalalitha has resigned. This is atrocities against women every year in the extremely regretting. House. After having adiscussion in the House the hon. Members feel satisfied and think that they have done their duty and thereafter I quote here from the magazine lithe there will be no incident of atroc~ies on Week", which is not a Government maga .. women. My friends in the opposition got very zine but a vary reputed magazine which is annoyed when an han. Member of the ruling published from Madras. tt has been stated in party raised the issue of Ms. Jayalalitha. I this magazine.

"Not recorded. 113 Disc. on Atrocities VAISAKHA 22.1911 (SAKA) on Women 114

[English] C.B.1. enquiry should be got conducted into it, the Tamil Nadu Government should be "According to sources in the State In­ dismissed and it should make a public apol­ telligence, as soon as the letter was ogy. This is so because this incident took round, the Assistant Commissioner place in Tamil Nadu Assembly and it may be sent it to Commissioner Durai who in repeated in any other Assembly, or even in turn handed" to Home Secretary R. this very House. How can you tolerate and Nagarajan. By 10.30 p.m. copies of justify this. This is a matter of great concern. resignation letter and the four page Athorough C.B.I. investigation should begot appeal to partymen had reached all conducted into this incident. Whenever the newspaper offices. It is said that po­ question of atroc~ies on women arises, our licemen in plain clothes took them to attention is completely diverted to the Su­ newspapers. " priya case, in which no action was taken even when the grand-daughter-in-Iaw of a [English] Chief Minister was shot dead. The Chief Ministers talk of morality but what could be What else could be more regretting? more regretting than the fad that we accept We sympathise with Kumari Jayalalitha atrocities quietly. That Chief Minister and because she was our colleague and we used those who give protection of such people to share views while sitting in the Rajya should have been arrested and a C.B.I. Sabha and the Central Hall. What right does enquiry should have been got conducted anyone have to insult an ex-M.P. or an ex M against them. But the entire action has been .L.A. in this manner. When a lady of Kumari kept lying pending. My submission is that no Jayalalitha's Calibre can be insulted in this matter how much we criticise the atrocities country, and is not allowed to speak and on women, the entire thing ends merely with forced to resign, then how can the honour of a discussion and is not proceeded any fur­ others be safeguarded? Even today, she is ther. We read in newspapers everyday about scared of coming out of her house, she was bride burning and we simply ignore ~ by virtually beaten up and a P.W.D. Minister being contented that this mishappaning did even tore her clothes. Has this ever hap­ not involve us. This may happen with any­ pened in our country? We feel satisfied with body. A very good slogan was given during these words that she was an actress. People one of the dhamas in the Supriya case that should just think how they would feel if the "Daan do dahej do, aur bahu ko maar do." ladies of their own family are treated in this Otherwise also, the brides and these poor manner ... girls are burnt alive.

SHRI SYED MASUDAL HOSSAIN: Say SHRISYEDMASUDALHOSSAIN: Tell something about Papri Posh also. us about the Papiya Posh.

DR. G.S. RAJHANS: How can you talk DR. G.S. RAJHANS: Why are you of Papri Posh when your party has also done feeling some, difficulty? We are already the same. How can you justify the iII-treat­ speaking about you only. ment meted out to Kumar; Jayalalitha? This is extremely regretting. Just because she SHRI SYEO MASUDAL HOSSAIN: Tell has joined hands with Congress Rnd has us about the Papiya Posh in Bihar. merged both the groups of A.I.D.M.K. due to which the position of Shr; Karunanidhi is DR. G.S. RAJHANS: I am just telling threatened. and because of that you people about it that those who were responsible for will recourse to violence and will then just~y it have been punished ... (/nt9"uptions) ... the same. This is very sad and regretting. My Both you as well as I understand this ... submission is that the Tamil Nadu Govern­ (Interruptions) ... This has happened in the ment should be dismissed. I submit that a family of your Chief Minister but why does his 115 Disc. on Atrocities MAY 12,1989 on Women 116

[Dr. G.S. Raj han s] lesson from the West of respecting the woman. This training may be imparted from son justify It here? ... (/nt8"uptions) ... I will the very childhood. In this regard, I would not let you speak unless it is yourturn. Let me submit that Shri Rajiv Gandhi has taken a speak ... (Interruptions) ... very good step by making a reservation of 30 per cent for women in the Panchayati Raj. SHRI SHAMINDER SINGH: Demand The Government should spend maximum the dismissal of the Chief Minister of Bihar possible amount on education of women so also ... (/nte"uptions) that they may raise their voicp ~Qtlinst any misdemeanour. The entire problem will get DR. G.S. RAJHANS: It is my turn so solved when they become economically please let me speak. You may speak on your independent and for this the Government turn... (Inte"uptions) should educate them. I would like to subm~ that this is not a matter of just one party or I would like to make 2-3 submissions. society or a village but that of the whole This may take place in any 1am ily and should nation. Recently, a girl in my neighbourhood therefore be taken seriously. My submission in Delhi had to face atrocities. Her parents is that just as the photographs of terrorists were not in a position to give dowry and are shown on T.V., similarly the photographs therefore her husband, her brother-in-law of the culprits found responsible for burning and even father-in-law used to beat her, but a lady or a girl in a family should be shown on she did not get justice. I took herfather to the television. The media 01 doordarshan is the Police Commissioner who took an immedi­ mightiest one these days. As such the Gov­ ate action and set allthe things right. But how ernment publishes the photograph of cul­ many of such people I can take to the Police prits in the newspapers. Apart from this, just Commissioner to get them justice. Orto what as the photograph of a mission people is extent you can do the same. The need is shown on T.V., similarly, the photograph of change of mentality. We all should change these criminals too should be shown on T. V. this mentality in our own way. We deliver so that their relatives and friends may know exhaustive speeches for speech sake and about their misdeeds and may socially boy­ people also say that gods live there where cott them. women are adored. Someone has said that this is only just for making statement in the I will conclude after making one more same way as a dishonest person says point since the hon. Minister has to reply. "$atyamevJayate"Le. truth always triumphs. People who have been on a visit to the Similarly, if we say so only in our speeches, Western countries, must have observed it at it is meaningless. This will not serve any least I have, that woman is given great purpose, unless we practice it ourselves in regards. This is so because in those coun­ our life w~h a determination to bring about a tries from the very beginning everybody in a change in our society. We will have to take a family is tratned that the status of female IS pledge in this regard. Atrocities on women higher than that of the males. In those coun­ will not stop unless we take aoledge in this tries whenever even the poorest woman regard. happens to travel by a bus, the richest per­ sons sittinp in the same bus will offer hertheir [English] seats. Even in queue men give priority to the female. In winter, season when there is snow THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE fait, men and women often wear overcoats. DEPARTMENTS OF YOUTH AFFAIRS AND If a lady visits somebody's house, the head SPORTS AND WOMEN AND CHILD DE­ of that fdmity howsoever rich he is, will pick VELOPMENT IN THE MINISTRY OF up her overcoat to hang it on the peg. There­ HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT fore, the question is that of the mentality. If (SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA): Mr. Dep­ nothing else, we should at least take the uty Speaker, Sir. the Home Ministerwin reply 117 ~isc. on Atrocities VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) on Women 118 to the debate at the end of h. I am only by women, of crimes committed againstthem intervening. is the plugging of the loopholes in law through amendments, as a result of which many You are aware that the implementation many more crimes are now registered, which machinery ia not with the Department of were not registered before. Women who Women and Child Development. It is the were afraid of talking about many things are Home Ministry and the State machineries now talking about them; and they are going which have realty got to be geared to imple· in for this sort of registration for justice to be mentthelegislation which we monitorthrough done to them. Take the question of rape, for Parliament. instance. Just a few years ago, no parent or family would allow a rape victim, the girl, .0 I have noted the many points which ever talk about it or even to go to a police have been raised in the discussion. There station even though she was the victim are a few of them which I would like to reply because society always looked down upon to, at this initial stage. her as she has become the victim of such a crime. But, today things are changing, and it One is that we do have legislation. We is a good sign that more and more of these have been from time to time receiving your are coming to Ught and are being recorded support for amendments there in order to and the machinery is being geared up to plug the loopholes. meet it. But, I do agree and J admit that the implementation machfneries need to be Very often suggestions are maded by strengthened and sensitised and made to be women's groups and by various experts in responsive to the changing needs of women the field. in this country. Many many more women are coming out to work and are travelling alone Efforts have been made from time 10 in public transport, and they have to face time to collect the figures of atrocities com various challenges. Strangely. society al­ mltted on women and those figures have ways tries to take undue advantage of been given by the Home Ministry to this women. Whether it is the girl going to college House. The cases of atrocities on women or whether she is travelling in OTe buses or are recorded in police stations. But, as has she is at work. We have so many cases been rightly said, many many cases are not which come to us of harassment of women recorded at all because generally there is a even in Government offices, or in private feeling of nervousness among women about offices. Various demands are being made going to police stations and coming face to on women and if they do n01 fall in line, then face with the police machinery at the grass either their records are spoiled or they are root level, for various reasons which I will transferred to far-away places, away from explain. But, I do want to say that awareness their families; or other kind of harassment among women in the country has grown takes place at work. These are probably tremendously over the last decade, particu­ many unrecorded atrocities of another kind larly after the UN Decade; and with the which women face also within their families. general awareness that has come about Here, I would like to ask as to how many of among Indian women, the women's move· us are not discriminating in our famities be· ment has really been strengthened. (Inter· tween our sons and daughters when it comes ruptions) to property, when it comes to education. When it comes to education, we feel that a MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order son even if he gets a third-class, must al­ please. We are discussing a serious matter. ways get the bast of education, even if he Why are you laughing all of a sudden? has to go to Karnataka to a donation college SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: The and pay donation to get him in. But a girl, second reason for improvement in the posi­ even if she gets a first ..class, after a particu­ tion of registering of crimes in police stations lar point, we take it. 119 Disc. on Atrocities MAY 12.1989 on Women 120

[Smt. Margaret Alva] [English]

[T rans/ation] SHRI BALWANT SINGH RAMOOW­ ALIA: I have already mentioned that they It does not matter. let her sit at home fetch the maximum price in the matrimonial since she is to get married. market.

[English] SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: It IS true, somebody had said that the mothers There is always this social discrimination were responsible. Yes, the mothers-in-law which parents themselves and very often are responsible. But why do the educated mothers within the family practise and this sons fall in line with the demands of their naturally reflects itseH in various ways in mothers, when they come back with all their various fields. degrees? All that I am saying is that these crimes are not limited to a particular section, Sir, it is the normal practice for Members to a particular social strata or to the unedu­ to make charges and walk out, and not to cated or to the particular economic groups listen to the replies. I am sorry that my friend alone. This seems to be something which we and colleauge Mrs. Goswami has not waited accept. to listen to the reply. She seems to suggest that a change of Government changes soci­ [ Translation} ety's attltude towards women. I am sorry, I do not agree. Nor have I seen, from experi­ SHRI SHAMINDER SINGH (Faridkot): ence of statistics, that the spirit of education If 50 per cent tax is imposed on them, the changes it. Every speaker agrees that in number of such cases may be reduced to spite of education, in spite of the urban some extent. impact of the so-called developmental proc­ ess, atrocities on girls and women in cities SHRIUTTAM RATHOD (Hingoli): What are also increasing. We talk about dowry. is the position in respect of the Members of We have a law: We have the rules for Parliament? Government servants. We have all such things. All such things have been done. Yet, SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: I would it has been mentioned that the highest dowry like to tell this also. paid is for the lAS Officers. The hon. Home Minister is here. I do not know what he would [English] like 10 say about it as far as his Ministry If concerned. But here I am speaking about the SHRIMATI Mf\RGARET ALVA: If it is a dowry for lAS Officers, for IPS Officers etc. session of question and answer, then I Will We have the most educated demanding the be drawn away from my own speech. I am highest prices as ifthey are bridegrooms on coming to a point abo~hich somebody sale and when they come back with green raised a question. It is generafly said that the cards and with foriegn degrees, the price politicians have the lowest dowry premium goes up. It is a shame that with all their because their careers are the most uncer~ degrees, Ph.Os, they become bridegrooms tain. on sale to their girls at home when they come back home. [ Translation]

[ Translation] God knows where will they be after a period of five years and who knows what happens next. SHRI VIJOY KUMAR YADAV (Nal­ anda): Their degrees should be taken back. ( Interruptions) 121 Disc. on Atrocities VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) on Women 122

[English] Somebody spoke about the question ot Sati. It is true that~here was one incident and So, they are not very much in.demand. So, t the reaction of the Government was immedi· must say that our han. Deputy-Speaker got ate. I must say here that both in Rajasthan as married last year. well as here, the Government acted immedi­ ately to see that ~ wouJd never happen MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Whyareyou again. Well, you can say: why should it have bringing me in? happened? Yes, it should not have hap­ pened. But the point is, we immediately got ( Interruptions) into action including campaigns in this area, to tell the women that they do not need to die. SHRI P. KOLANDAIVELU (Gobichetti­ We are prepared to look after them. I am glad palayam): At that time, he was in very good to say that the first Home in one of the most demand. (Interruptions) Sati-prone areas in Rajasthan, in Sikar, for widows, was opened as a joint project just SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: I am last month and 15000 women turned up for only saying this that this is not a political the inauguration, and the whole town of issue. Members may sit on that side or this Sikar was up with slogan: "we are not to die, side. You may be in a State where any we will live and we will fight." This Is a Government is running this system. I don't changed atmosphere in this very district. A think that this changes the statistics or holiday had been declared for the schools changes the situation very much. I would like and colleges and girls, children and every­ to point out that Members spoke about making body participated in this big programme. We the implementation system more effective. had Pad Yatrathrough the streets appealing We passed a law in 1984. I have been to the people: 'Iif you cannot look after your repeatedly mentioning in the this House and widows, send them to our homes and we will in my letters to the Chief Ministers about the look after them." We have 33 of them with Family Courts Bill. It was hoped that the their children already in this Home. And I am Family Courts would attend to a number of getting requests for more Homes to be legal and other problems faced by women in opened in Jhunjhunu and otherdistricts where the family, which could be in a different there are these problems. So, social aware­ atmosphere outside the law courts. I am ness and this kind of campaign will produce sorry to say that West Bengal, about which the result because after all Indiraji used to the Member spoke so much, has not yet set repeatedly say: "these are not women's up a Family Court even in Calcutta. They say problems. They are social problems and that there are no problems in West 8engal; they have to be handled by society as a probably every man in Benga! is a saint. But whole." Therefore, I appeal to all sections I do not know. Their experience might be particularly to my friends on the other side, such. But I would like to say that only five that the discussion started very w~1I on a Family Courts have been set up since 1984 general note. But then, we start saying: "if in Jaipur, Kanpur, Lucknow, Madras and you have CPM Government, you have no Bangalore. None of the others has set up a atrocities, and if you have the Congress single Family Court. Therefore, the enforce­ Government, you have the atrocities. " Then ment of laws is going on in the normal it comes down to a level where the real process which takes years for a matter to be discussion and sorting out of this problem heard or to be settled. I would appeal to afI does not become possible. I would, there­ the Members who think that everything ;s the fore, appeal that we stick to the problem as responsibiliti of the Central Government to it stands because all of us, as a natic)n, as a Please nave enough pressure put on their community, have to sort it out. own State Governments and see that the family courts are established as early as A questIOn of inquiries has been raised. POssible. I want to say here that whether it was the 123 Disc. on Atrocities MAY 12,1989 on Women 124

[Smt. Margaret Alva] per cent of the seats would be guaranteed to women in the viliages, in the block, as well as case of Supriya or any other matter, without in the district panchayats. the consent of the State Government, we cannot directly interfere in investigation. The AN HON. MEMBER: There is no sup-- Home Ministry has issued directives from port! time to time particularly about the need to have a post mortem by two doctors, if it is SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: You within seven years after marriage. And vari­ may not support; but the women of India are ous other safeguards are there, namely, 1hat not looking at it as an Opposition or Govern­ the body cannot be disposed of unless a ment issue; they are looking at it as an issue family memberofthe girl is ~atisfied that they which will bring women into the grassroot have looked into everything and seen the level decision making process. We have body before it is burnt or buried, and so on been kept out for very long. I think the time and so forth. But as I said, unless there is a has come when their voice at the grassroot commitment to Implement it at all levels­ must be heard. Uptil now the male-domi­ and if senior and very important people feel nated machinery decided as to what is good that they are beyond the law, whether it for us, they have decided how much money comes to a post mortem in a hospital or to should go to us, they have decided how It other rules being followed, it becomes very must be used and they have also decided difficult for me to stand here and say that that women must be happy with that much. everything is all right. I do not think anybody So, they have remained where they are. can be above the law. The dowry laws must apply to everybody-political and non-politi­ I think things are changing and I am cal persons, official and to all. As far as Satl certain that with this change, you will see is concerned, you probably ... (Interruptions) more and more women emerging, who Will come into your Assemblies and into the SHRI VIR SEN (Khurja): How can it Parliament to take many of your seats in the apply to a Chief Minister? coming elections.

SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: ThiS IS SHRI Y.S. MAHAJAN (Jalgaon): Does where I am saying that It becomes very it apply to women in the Government service necessary to create public awareness. I do also? not want to go into details because time is limited. I went, after that Incident of Supriya, SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: I Will to Haryana. I had a public meeting with come to that also. women. They had invited me. They said: "We want to know the truth. Here is a daugh­ There is one more aspect about women ter of Haryana and we have the right to know coming into this Chamber. It was again raised. the truth.": I had agreed to help investigate it. The question is not of Opposition or Govern t do not want to go into greater details as It is ment. But women need to be secure even now in the court. inside legislatures and inside the elected bodies. It might be somebody else today, It The other thing is about the decision­ might be me here also. The question is, if we making processes. It has rightly been said cannot stand as equals in an Assembly or If that women have to be brought into the we are to be attacked simply because we are decision~mak;ng process. They must have a women and our modesty is to be outraged in voice in implementing programmes forthem. public, then no woman can stand up and And I am glad that in the Panchayats-now fight like this. I think all sections should thatthe Prime Minister has announced it, we condemn it. Whether it is a man or a woman are hoping and because of the commitment in a House he or she has a right to be there; made in the party forum and otherwise-30 and whoever the Member is, she has a right 125 Disc. on Atrocities VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA) on Women 128 to be treated as an equal citizen. We look come into the police afterthat.lthink women with dismay at some of the trends which police themselves are in need of protection have recently COl'T}e. Women, I·want to say, these days' cannot be shut out simply by threatening them or frightening them. The more we are I must say that the need to sensitize the threatened, the more we will stand up and administration has been felt very strongly. fight back. We have introduced severa) programmes, from our Department, for sanitizing our We have spoken about the need for implementation machineries, the media, the having more women police officers. I agree police, the law enforcement agencies and that in every police station we need them and every group that is needed to be sentizised I hope the Home Minister will respond to this to women's issues. I am glad that the Depart­ plea. We have been repeatedly making the ment of Personnel has responded to this and plea that we need to recruit more women . we have now for all lAS and IPS officers, in police particularly at the point where the service as well as at the beginning, special public especially women come into contact training capsules on women developmental with the law enforcement machinery in the issues as part of their training, so that right police station~. from the beginning they know what is the problem and how they have to respond in the SHRI K.P. SINGH DEC (Dhenkanal): changing situation. What about women in the Armed Forces? When a Bill was introduced, it was the Gov­ ernment which opposed it. Social welfare organisations and women's groups as I said have become very SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: Yes, I much aware of all this. We have now pro­ suppose in the Armed Forces they are afraid vided that lists of women would be given to of many other things police stations from these registered bodies who would help with the enforcement proc­ SHAI K.P. SINGH OED: There are esses, with the police, if necessary for inves­ women Armed Forces in Canada, United tigation, helping in registering of crimes and States, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Eng­ so on, and to help women in need. We also, land, etc. have a programme of 'Homes for Women in distress'. We have made a special provision SHRIMATIMARGARETALVA: At least for reservation of 10% accommodation in we should start with the police. There are two Working Women Hostels, for widows, in level~; one is the police and the second is the need of acoommodation. We have changed :ower judiciary. I think we need more women thA rules to allow women with children to magistrates, judges and so, on who are come into these Homes, so th3t no widow or sensitive to the needs of women who come woman is kept out of the Working Women before the lower courts. Hostels because she has little children on her hands. We provide for day-care and SHRI K. RAMACHANDRA REDDY other such supportive mechanisms for (Hindupur): Why don't you reserve 30% of women, that were needed. The need, of seats in those jobs also? course, is for employment and training for employment and we are in the process of SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: I will working out many schemes, through the:> come to that. I must say that I have recently New Educational Policy and through the seen it and I don't know how the Home non-formal sector, to help them, particularty Minister will respond to this. The way some those who need to stand on their own feet. of our women police officers have been The Prime Minister announced in the House • treated before Commissions of Inquiry and that very soon, we would.be appointing a others. I don't think any woman wants to National CommissionerforWomen's Right •. 127 Disc. on Atrocities MAY 12. 1989 on Women 128

(Smt. Margaret Alva] THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE This, I think. is what everybody has been MINISTRY OF PERSONNEL, PUBLIC asking for.-an independent machinery that GRIEVANCES AND PENSION AND MINtS .. would come into operation, to see that the TER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF States and other agencies follow up cor­ HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBA­ rectly the investigative processes and do not RAM): The debate is not over. allow these crimes to go undetected and unpunished. This would be 01 a great sup­ SHRI P. KOLANDAIVELU (Gobichetti­ port to women who are the victims of various palayam): Sir, with regard tothis discussion, types of crimes. We are in the process of I am very much thankful to the Chair, be­ setting it up and before we meet in the nex1 cause, such a discussion is very very neces­ Session, I am sure, we will be able to make sary at this juncture. the official announcement about the details of the Commissioner for Women's Rights. Sir, with regard to the social discrimina* tion against women, even now, it is still Sir, I have put the various points to­ persists and the Government has taken so gether and I have death with them. The many legal measures in order to remove question of femall) infanticide has been that. Equality and equal status to women spoken about. We have condem~ed it and in must prevail in the country. The Government fact, I have written to the Chief Minister of has brought in so many amendments 10 Rajasthan. Necessary legal proceedings various Acts. The Government has made were also launched at that time. amendments to the Dowry Prohibition Act, Immoral Traffic Prevention Act, Indian Evi­ When it comes to crimes against women, dence Act, Indian Penal Code. Criminal I am sure. you will agree with me that no Procedure Code and so many other Acts. In politics and no status should come between order to make them effective, a machinery justice and the crime that has been commit­ must be brought in. There is a gap which ted. If we are committed to this, I do not think, persists between tho policy pronouncem ents there would be very many problems. and their implementation. The gap is being widened. In order to reduce the gap, a Sir, I am just answering the points which monitoring agency must be there. So, the have been raised today. But I would like to Government must take it up immediately in say that as far as the enforcement is con­ order to implement the laws strictly. in letter cerned, it is the responsibility of the Home and spirit. Ministry and I would on behalf of all of us, _request the Home Ministry to see that the Sir, a new provision has also been intro­ laws which have been passed by the Houses duced in the Indian Penal Code. Now, the of Parliament are implemented more vigour­ onus of proof has been shifted to the ac­ ously and more conscientiously and that the cused. Usually, ir.criminalcases, theonusof police become more conscious of their ra­ proof always. lies with the prcsAcution. Now, sponsibilnies as protectors Qf women and the Government has come forward to shift not as their explo~ers. thank you, Sir. the onus of proof to the accused. So, in cases of cruelty on married women, the onus SHRI unAM RATHOD (Hingoli): I has been shifted to the accused in the Dowry want to ask only one question. The law Death Act. Two new enactments have been differentiates between women of different brought in in the statute book recently, character. i.e. women of good character and namely, Indecent Representation of Women women of bad character. (Prohibition) Act, 1986 and Commission of Sati (Prevention) Ad, 1987. Indecent Repre­ MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister sentation of Women (Prohibition) Act, 1986 has spoken. It is not that the debate is over. aims at prohibiting the portrayal of women in 129 Disc. on Atrocities VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA) on Women 130 indecent, derogatory and denigrating man­ incident should take place and that too when ner through books, pamphlets and we give so much respect to women. Even advertisements. Commission of Sati (Pre .. this country is named as Mother India We vention) Act aims at preventing and glorifica­ ean rivers after the names of women, that is. tion of Sati. Yamuna, Ganga. Kavery, etc. We are giving so much respect to women but here is a The law and other aspect rests actually gow~rnment which instead of giving protec­ with the State Governments. Unless the tion to women are insulting women like State Governments take an effective step anything. That is why we request the Gov .. with regard to implementation of these Acts ernment to take action immediately against there is no possibility of the security to the that government for breach of privilege which women folk. At this juncture, I want to point took place on 25th March, 1989. Action out that there are so many State Govern­ should be initiated against the Ministers who ments in this country but here is a State involved themselves in outraging the mod­ Government in Tamil Nadu where actually esty of the Opposition leader there. Sir, so women-folk has no security at all. Here I far we have given so many memoranda to want to tell the House that in 1975 when this the Prime Minister, President and the Home very DMK Government was in power, then Minister but they are of no use. The incident there was a district conference at Coim­ which took place on the 25th March. 1989 is bature where one of the members who is a a black mark not only in the history of Tamil Minister now spoke with regard to Madam Nadu but also in the history of India. Under Indira Gandhi. This very Chief ~inister was the very nose of the Chief Minister, such an also present there. From the dias he said incident tool place and what action has been that he wanted to bring a Widow Ae-mar­ initiated by the Chief Minister so far? What riage Act in order to help Madam Indira action has been taken against the Ministers Gandhi. You please think of it. That very ortheofficersconcerned? So far. he has not DMK government is in power now. The very taken any action against them. When such is same DMK Chief Minister, ...... who tried the case, why did not the Central Govern­ to attack Madam Indira Gandhi when she ment go to the rescue of the Opposition came to Madura; and Madras is there. At that Leader and thus to the women folk of Tamil time there was a blood-stain on the saree of Nadu in order to take prompt action against Madam Indira Gandhi. The DMK Ministers the Chief Minister and against the Govern­ and also the Chief Minister, ."I•• ** ..... pointed ment of Tamil Nadu? Actually, the Members out about the blood-stain on the saree of of the Opposition were brutally assaulted, Madam Gandhi. After attacking herby means mercilessly attacked and indiscriminately of stones when there was a blood-stain, she abused. Miss JayalaHtha was absued in such was criticised and they wanted to take it as a a manner which cannot be described. No laughing stock. Is it correct, Sir? They very women is safe in the hands of Tamil Nadu same Minisfry is in power now. That is why I Government. I think that the women fork of want to say to this august House and I also not only Tamil Nadu but also of India will seek protedion for the women-folk in Tamil never forgive th sinners, i.e., the Chief Miry­ Nadu. ister and other Ministers. The women fotk will not forgive the sinners in the ruling DMK On 25th March, 1989 a violent incident Government Sir, it is was a pre-planned tool place inside Tamil Nadu Assembly. attack in order to dislodge her from the Nowhere in the country such an incident has leadership. with a view to cripple the voice of taken place. The Opposition leader in Tamil democracy and to malign the Opposition Nadu is AIADMK leader, Miss Jayalalitha. In with the active support of the Chief Minister order to dis-lodge her from the position of and other Ministers. I am talking of the inci­ Opposition leader actually there was an at­ dent which took place on the 25th March, tempt to outrage her modesty by DMK Min­ 1989. Even the Congress (I) Leader, istry. I would like to know whether such an ...... *.••• and Deputy Leader, ..••..•••...• and ··Not recorded. 131 Disc. on Atrocities MAY 12,1989 Disc. on Shortage of 132 on Women Drinking Water [She P. Kolandaivelu] 16.20 hr •• other Congress Member were also attacked DISCUSSION UNDER RULE 193 on that day. Actually, chapels, paperweights and mikes were used as missiles inside the [English] Assembty. Such was th~ incident which took place on the 25th March, 1989. On the 25th. Acute Shortage of Drinking Water In the wife of late Dr. MGR, MRS. Janak; went various parts of the country to the hospital to see Miss Jayalalitha who was under treatment. After seeing her. Mrs. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The House Janaki returned home. Immediately police will now take up discussion on the situation personnel was sent to the house of late Shrj arising out of acute shortage of drinking MGR and the house was raised on that day. water in various parts of the country and the Not only that...... brother's shop was steps taken by the Government in that re­ ransacked and thousands of rupees had gard. been taken away and properties had been santched. There is no democracy at all in Shri Harish Rawat. Tamil Nadu. Even thousands of our party people had been taken under arrest and [ Translation] even now, agitation is going on everyday. Even now public meetings are taking place SHRI HARISH RAWAT: Mr. Deputy everyday in order to condemn the incident Speaker, Sir. most parts of the country are which took place on 25th March, 1989. either reeling under drinking water crisis or are likely to face it soon. The Government MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You can had made an announcement in 1980 that continue your speech on Monday. We will drinking water would be provided to all the now take up the next item. 5,07,000 villages in the country by the year 1990. But it is regretted that the results have [ Translation] not been in commensurate with the money and energy spent on this. It was also said SHRI RAM BHAGAT PASWAN: Mr. that under the International Drinking Water Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am on a point of order. and Sanitation Decade Scheme. we will I seek your protection. I wanted to speak on provide potable waterto about 90 per cent of atrocities on women. My name was on the the villages and 50 per cent rural population top, but I have been left out. I may please be and 100 per cent urban population will start given time to speak on this subject. getting clean water. I do not say that the Central Government did not provide funds [English] for it. So far as the position of funds is concerned, a lot of money has been spent MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is no under this head and a lot ·of money has also point of order been released for this purpose. If we go by the figures available in this respect, a huge ( Interruptions) sum of Rs. 2700 crores was earmarked for this purpose during the Sixth Five Year Plan MR. DEPUTY SPEAkER: When we and a sum of Rs. 35~5 crores was ear­ discuss this subject next time. I will call you. marked during the Seventh Five Year Plan. You can speak on the drinking water prob­ lem if you want. 16.22 hrs.

[SHRJ SHARAD DIGHE in the Chailj

-Not recorded. 133 DIsc. on Shortage VAfSAKHA 22. 1911 (SAKA) of Drinking Water 134

l.understand that if we make an assess .. done. The tubewells installed are defective. ment of the expenditure that has so far been The distribution tanks are also defadive. made on this head it wifl be revealed that by Cement ;s swindled away. A thin coat of 1990 more th_Rs. 4000 crores would be cement is applied on the outer surlace. The spent for this purpose. Even after spending scheme hardly runs for a year. After one year such a huge amount if you look at the situ­ the villagers are asked to pay tax. Tax is ation prevailing in the States, either you take collected from the people, but the drinking the case of unar Pradesh or Rajasthan or water scheme never works. The taps run Karnataka or Tamil Nadu or Bihar, in almost dry. If somebody makes a hue and cry or if he all the States especially in the rural areas, comes in contact with an M. P. or an M. L.A. the people are reefing under the grip of and if the M.P. orM.L.A. comesto his rescue, drinking water crisis. If the rains do not fall the water supplying agencies spend some immediately or there will be no good rainfall money and re-arrange water supply. But no this year, it will a most difficult year for the attempt is made to find a permanent solu­ village so far as the problem of drinking tion. I would like to remind the Government water is concerned. that it is a matter of national pride for us. We were a party to the conference that was held Just now we are holding a discussion on at Vancouver. We had made pledge in the atrocities on women. This too is a problem said conference that we would provide po­ that women have to face. Today this problem table drinking water to all the villages in the is no acute in my area that people have to country within the International Water Dec­ cover long distances to fetch water. There ade. If we are not able to do so and if after are villages stop hills. Women from these 1992 and 1993 we come to know that the villages come 6 kilometres down to carry problem of drinking is still there in 1/3 or 1/2 water. The entire family is engaged in carry­ of the villages in the country I it becomes a ing water. They cannot look after any other national challenge for us. We have since work. The State Governments release funds accorded top priority to it under the minimum under the crash programme to solve the needs programme. It has been accorded problem of drinking water, but God knows prrority in the 20 point programme. Even how this money is utilised. The condition of after that if this problem continues to be most of the schemes of drinking water run by acute, the Central Government should not the Water Corporation in Uttar Pradesh is only come forward to help the States, but very deplorable. Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would also exercise proper check on them. It should like to cite an instance in this context. A few evolve a system under which proper moni­ days back I had the opportunity of attending toring could be done after releasing the meetings held in some blocks. If the meeting funds. If it is not taken proper care or proper runs for 6 hours, 4 hours out of 6 are devoted monitoring is not done and the money goes to the problem of drinking water. There were waste, what reply would you give to Parlia .. complaints tnat either drinking water was not ment in this regard and to the country as well. available or the schemes which were What will be the assessment of the people launched become defective. The Gram about the Government and about the Mem­ Pradhans and the people are in more grief. bers of Parliament. The situation is not only The reason is that once the scheme was put that all ths sources have dried up but also into operation, people did not pay attention water does come in the taps. The water to' conventIOnal sources of water such as whatever is available is defective. It ;s not rivulets, springs and wells. For one or two treated properly. There is no provision to years the people get water through these treat the water with cholorine etc. There is no schemes and thereafter the schemes be­ permanent machinery to look after it. The come defunct. The pipes dug in the earth are machinery that is there is only in name. left at the shallow layer and their utility is left Today we are thinking of devolving pow... to God. Though there is a provision to dig to Panchayat. In this connection I would Ike pipes three feet below the surface, that is not to urge upon the hon. Minister or Rural 135 D;'o. on Shortage MAY 12.1989 of DrInking Water 136

[She Harish Rawat1 them now. The situation is very aoute in Madras. As compared to that, this crisis Development and han. Minister of Urban could become more serious in Delhi. The Development that the maintenance of drink­ han. Minister of Urban Devek>pment is pres .. ing water schemes should be entrusted to ent here. I would like to request here to Panchayat. They should be empowered to prepare a long term plan in regard to drinking levy taxes and utilise the tax money on the water problem in Delhi. A system should be maintenance of these schemes. At the same so evolved that problem of drinking water the villages should be provided fixed amounts would be totally eliminated in Delhi, the capital annually to take care of drinking. water city of India. tf it is not done, you will be schemes. The Government cannot reach required to install hand pumps as it is done everywhere. Hthe Government machinery is in trans-Yamuna areas. Due 10 use of water not set up everywhere, I am afraid, this from hand pumps gasto-enterities disease problem can never be solved. I was going to spread in the area and a large number of tell that clean water is not available to most children died premature death. Due to that parts of the country. Out of total children our heads were hung in shame. The situ­ taking birth in the country every year, 127 ation is not that good in Delhi. The condition chikJren per thousand die of consuming of a number of colonies in Delhi is worse. contaminated water. About 122 lakh people There are hues and cries in M.e.D. meetings in the country suffer from goitre. In Hindi it is in Delhi that water did not reach to this and called 'bhonga'. I do not know its English that colony today. There is no question of equivalent. The main reason of it is that we getting water as much as it is required. Even are not able to provide them clean water, the pressure of water is very low in M.PS treated water. I would like to request the quarters. We are not getting water in the Government to evolve a system in consulta­ required quantity. When we are experienc­ tion with the State Governments so that the ing such a situation, you can well imagine the water to be made available is fir for drinking. situation in other areas. Similarly, the situ­ ation is very acute in outer Delhi. A number The situation is also acute in urban of people working here requested me to areas. A number of major schemes have raise the point of non-availability of water in since been introduced in the urban areas their colonies during debate on water being after the introduction of integrated drinking held today. If I prepare of those localities it water scheme in these areas. But due to woufd be very long and it will consume time. tremendous increase in urban population Therefore, I would like to request you there most of these schemes have become use­ should be a general review of the existing less. What I want to say is that the population situation at that time and besides, a long has increased manifold as compared to the term'scheme should also be chalked out to number estimated at the time of preparing solve the problem of water. We cannot meet schemes earlier. I have been observing the our full requirement of watet rom Yamuna. popu~ation poSition in Delhi for last 20 years. Therefore, we have to go on a bit far away. During these years the population of Delhi Therefore, I would like to request you to tell has increased manHold. Definitely the earlier Delhi Administration that Uttar Pradesh estimate of providing drinking water has Government is going to construct Tehri Dam, fallen short of the present requirement. It will Delhi Administration should contribute some be of no use if some addition or deletion ;s amount for Tehri Dam. Some money should made in it or any effort is made in it or any be released to the Government of Uttar effort is made to control the supply. A few Pradesh, so that some cause water can be days back there was a report in the newspa­ obtained for Delhi. At present you will not pers that by the turn of this century Delhi contribute and at the time of crisis you will would be experiencing acute drinking water ask every State Government to release some problem. We witl not be in a position of water. At that time the State Governments supplv 1/4th of water that we are supply to would be under pressure. Some State may 131 DIsc. on Shortage VAISAt

(Sh. Harish Rawat] efforts right from inception are being made to meet this requirement. The Government of new towns have come up which do not have India and State Governments have made any sanitation facility. The entire garbage of special efforts in the region. Efforts are being the city spread over and damage the Na" made to solve the problem of drinking water tional Highway. The vehicles passing through through National Technology Mission on the road also suffer damage. The effluence Drinking Water, Accelerated Rural Water of factories takes the shape of a pond adja­ Supply Prog''amme, Minimum Need pro­ cent to road and it become a problem for the gramme and foreign collaboration is also passers by. The adjoining villages also face being sought to deal with the problem of this problem. In this connection, the Central drinking water supply in urban areas, but in Government should formulate some scheme spite of this, lot of money is still required. The in consultation with the State Government resuh of huge investment is not upto the so that these small and medium cities can be mark. I would like to request the han. Minis­ developed. More financial assistance should ter that first of all this thing is required to be be provided for this purpose so that the looked into. A huge amount has been sanc­ towns may develop rapidly. tioned in the budget, lot of money has been given to the States also, yet the result is not At last, I would like to request the Cen­ more than 75-80 per cent in any State. What tral Government, Minister of Agriculture and is the reason behind this? Whether any Minister of Urban Development through you monitoring has been done to find out the that it is a human problem, it is a question of reason? nation's prestige, we must take it accord­ i'lgly. It is not a matter of centre-state or a Sir, as has been mentioned in the An­ r 'atter of one state to the other, it, is a nual Report, a provision of Rs. 7000 crores problem of the whole of India, it is a problem has been made for Technology Mission. 130 of entire rural areas, it is a problem of women desalination Centres have been identified, who have to spent their maximum time in which are situated in Rajasthan, Tamil Nadu, fetching water. I would like to submit that a Gujarat, West Bengal and other States. As long term scheme should be chalked out to far as their progress is concerned, details of solve this problem. The list of those problem their progress have not been seen in the villages is with you, you sh6uld make avail· Annual Report or anywhere else. Aftet doing able funds for those villages. Where the so much work and investing a lot of money drinking water projects are incomplete, State and talking the services of experts in this Govenrment's should be provided with funds field, success has not been achieved in the to complete them. Where these schemes Plants of desalination Centres safar. What is are not operating efficiently, funds should be the reason? Kindly look into it. You have made available to make them viable. A long identified 55 sub-Missions under the Na­ term scheme for the entire nation must be tional Technology Mission on Drinking wa­ chalked out and should be implemented with ter. As far as I know, three sub-missions the cooperati~n of State Governments to have been identified in Rajasthan. These provide fresh and" safe drinKing water. With are in Barmar, Nagaur and Churu. The per­ these words, I move this motion before the formance of these mission is commendable. House for consideration The function of these missions is to find out as to where the water can be available and SHRIRAMSINGHYADAV(Alwar): Mr. what arrange'l1ents can be made. But there Chairman, Sir, the problem of drinking water is a need to make them more dynamic and supply is a national problem. This problem is expand them. Till now, only some States required to be solved not on state-level but have been bSnemed. Whether you will ex­ on national level. Keeping in view the human pand it further? I would thank the experts of needs, drinking water is a basic requirement Technology. Mission, esp9ciaUy Mr. Sam for the existence of human being. Constant P~rodaJ because he has accorded highest 141 Disc. on Shot1age VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA) of Drinking Wat., 142 priority tQ drinking water in the Technology When this is the situation of ground water Mission. Four fields are covered under this and the water schemes started by the Gov­ Programme. These are Telecommunication, ernment ha,e stopped providing water, why Immunisation and literacy Programme and does not the Govern~ent take steps for the fourth programme is also very essential deeper boring of tubawells? What hindrance in view of the necessity. The results could si the Government facing due to which it is not be achieved according to the expecta­ unable to furtil the demand of Rajasthan tions of the nation with regard to drinking Government? Is it correct than even U.S.S.R. water supply. I would also like to ask the had extended an offer a few days back to reason as to ~hy the amount sanctioned help the Indian Government in solving the during the year for this purpose and the problem of drinking water? Earlier also, 6 amount released as metioned in the Annual drilling rigs had been sent to India by Russia, Report is not being actually utilised? Would some of which have been sent to Gujarat you get it examined? During the year 1985- and Rajasthan. Since Russia wants to give 86, a provision of Rs. 11 crores was made assistance from expertise and financial point under Minimum Need Programme in Rajast­ of view, has the Government formulated any han butthe actual expenditure has been only plan or project in this regard so that special Rs. 9.51 crores. Similarly, in the year 1986- equipment or technical assistance could be 87, a provision of Rs. 16 crores was made, imported from that country? I would like the though the expenditure of only 14.48 crores hon. Minister to give this information white has been shown. During the year 1987-88, a replying to the debate in the House. There provision of Rs. 23.80 crores was made are many such villages in Rajasthan, where while the actual expenditure was only As. water is absolutely brackish. It is essential to 21.03 crores. Similarly, forthe year 1988-89, de-salinate it. Will the hon. Minister name the a provision of As. 27.03 crores has been plant in our country which are meant for de­ made and out of which only 24.36 crores has salination of water? Has the Government been spent so tar. What is the reason that identified those places in Rajasthan where after sanctioning so much amount, it has not the Government is going to de-salinate the actually been spent. I want to know whether brackish water? On an average, the ground­ there is a shortage of drilling rigs and experts water level in every State in India has gone or the State Government does not want to down by 50 feet. This is the view shared by spend the money. What is the reason that both the hydrologists as welf as the States. the money has not ben utilised even in a what steps is the Governmenttaking to tackle State like Rajasthan? There are 35 thou­ this problem especially in Rajasthan, Gujarat. sand villages in Rajasthan State our of which Tamil Nadu and West Bengal? Besides, 30 thousand and 400 villages have been what special schemes have been formu .. provided with drinking water supply facility lated to solve this problems in other States so far. Arrangements for drinking water has affected by the same prot)Iem? One lakh 50 not been 'made in 4 thousand 5 hundred thousand villages in India are such where villages. Drinking water is not available within drinking water is not available upto a dis­ the circumference of 2 k.m. There is a target tance of 1.6 kilometer. In this direction, the of supplying drinking water in every village Government should give special priority to by 1990. What concrete steps you are taking those villages and solve their problem through to achieve the target. Rajasthan Govern­ special projects and with the help of the ment has been demanding drilling rigs and State Governments. The U.N. O. has adopted money continuously. They have submitted the decade from April 1, 19891 to March 31 st Contingency Plan also. Money has not been 1990 under the International Water Supply made available so far for the Contingency Programme. Under this programme, some Plan made for 201 towns and 35 thousand financial assistance or technical assistance villages. Study Team visited Rajasthan. may be received from the U.N.O. Wrlllndia According to the Study Team, water level in get that assistance? The hon. Minister may some places has fallen below fjfty-sixty feet. kindly give detailed information as to what 143 Disc. on SI1ortsg(I MAY 12. 1989 of Drinking Wat., 144

[Sh. Ram Singh Yadav] water1echnology missions are functioning in Rajasthan. The work in alt the three missions programmes have ben formulated in this is commendable. I thank the han. Prime regard and what special action has been Minister for having takan the help of technol­ taken in this field. Further, have the State ogy mission is solving this problem. Espe­ Government been helped on these lines? I cially the efforts made by him in this field in gather that in order to solve the problem of Rajasthan, not only during drought but also drinking water I the Rajasthan Government in solving the problem of drinking water are has spent Rs. 621 crore during the past 40 exemplary. When we the M.Ps met him on years. They have taken up two schemes Monday, we requested him that it is essential namely Beesalpur scheme which is meant to allocate funds worth Rs. 45 crore for urban for Beawar, Ajmer and Kishangarh and the areas and As. 75 crore for rural areas in other is Indira Gandhi Canal scheme which Rajasthan during the year 1989-90. We also is meant for Jodhpur. It is estimated that an presented a memorandum to him. I would amount of Rs. 64.37 crores on the first like to reiterate that in accordance with that scheme and nearly Rs. 42 crare on the memorandum, a total of Rs. 120 crore, Le. second scheme will be spent. The work on Rs. 45 crore for urban areas and Rs. 75 crore both these schemes is going on at a low for rural areas, should be immediately allo­ speed due to shortage of funds. How much cated to the Government of Rajasthan. The funds will the Government allocate for these han. Minister should take the request of the schemes in the current year? Will the Gov­ M. Ps seriously and send the approval to the ernment take steps to accelerate them? A Rajasthan Government immediately so that study team was sent to examine the problem they are ~ble to solve the problem of drinking of drinking water and the members of this water. team visited my constituency, Alwar also. The team found that there are in fact such Mr. Chairman, Sir, the problem of drink­ villages, especially in the southern and ing water is serious in the whole country and western parts of Alwar which are facing the almost every state is affected by it. My sub­ acute problem. Alwar town itself is suffering mission is that Government should take it on this account. Will the Government pro­ seriously and should make efforts to find a vide the maximum number of rig machines solution to ~ by formulating projects with the and financial assistance in Rajasthan in help of the State Governments. With this accordance with the report presented by the hope and confidence, I express my thanks to study team in order to solve the problem In you. Alwar and adjoining rural areas? I know the hon. Minister takes keen interest in this area [English] and both he as well as his department have done commendable work. However, in the SHRI SRIKANTA DATTA NARA­ coming two-and-a-half months, i.e. from May SIMHARAJA WADIYAR (Mysore): Mr. to July 15th, till the arrival of monsoons, this Chairman, Sir, I rise to speak in respect of problem takes a serious form in Rajasthan, drinking water shortage not only in villages Gujarat and other parts of the country. Keep­ but also in towns and large cities in this ing that in view. the Government should not country. It is really unfortunate that though hesitate in incurring expenditure and provide we are at the fag end of the 20th century, we maximum financial assistance to the State still seem to be facing acute water shortage Governments, so that they could solve this and especially in the summer months, we problem. A few days back, we, the M. Ps of find a large number of peopte in villages as Rajasthan mat the hon. Prime Minister. I well as in large cities queueing up near water would like to thank the hon. Prime Minister taps, hand pumps and tanks to collect water for having given the assurance during his for drinking purpose and other utility pur­ visit to the State, to provide technology poses. This has become a national phe· mission to Rajasthan. Today, three drinking nomenan. The reasons for this problem are 145 Disc. on Shortage VAISAKHA 22.1911 (SAKA) of Drinking Water 146 many. One of the main reasons for this also under way, unfortunately, there is still problem are many. One of the main reasons inadequate supply of water. Hence I urge that can be attributed 10r inadequate supply upon the Minister to kindly see that these of water is silting up of river beds, dams and projects are expedited as early as possible. tanks due to soil e~osion caused by exces­ sive deforestation. Andthis has led the water Villages and Taluka headquarters in th9 table receding considerably and in the northern districts of Karnataka are in a very summer months. there is a great deal of bad shape. Even district headquarters such pressure on the population for drinking wa­ as the districts of Raichur, Gulbarga and ter~ Hence, I would strongly submit to the Bidar do not have adequate drinking water Ministers for Urban Development and Rural facilities. There is plenty of water in the Development that the rivers, thanks, etc. southern parts but unfortunately due to the which are silted up should be desllted on a fact that It ;s not hearnessed properly most of large scale so that the water table whIch had the water goes waste. Most of the tanks and receded does not recede further. Also see rivers are also polluted. This causes various pages in tanks, river beds, dame;, etc. can be dis&ases like encephalitis due to high con­ prevented by taking adequate measures, lent oi chlorine in the water. Hence I urge the such as undertaking regular repairs and han. Minister to kindly see that adequate maintenance of dams, tanks, etc. measures are taken in this respect.

FUI1her, a massive water distribution I would like to know from the hon. Min­ system has to be undertaken in Villages, ister what he is proposing to do to preventthe towns and in large cities. A missive affores­ receding of the water table in the country as tation scheme has to be undertaken, espe­ a whole and does he propose to declare the cially in the catchment areac; so that peren­ water resources as a national grid SCI that the nial water supply is assun;d. water which is i:1 excess in one State COl lid be diverted 10 Statas which do not nave -17.00 hrs. adequate water and then supplied to them.

De-silting of rivers, tanks and pumps I would also like to know whetf'\ef the has to be undertaken. Maintenar.ce of MI nister would seriously consider undertak­ handpumps and water taps has also to be ing the desilting of Nater tanks, dams and undertaken on a regula( basIs and water has river-beds in the country and would take to be provided throughout the day. In bigger measures to prevent pollution of rivers and cities, we find that water comes only fOI two tanks, which IS also causing various prob~ or three days in a week. There are various lems to the local population. Especially CAr­ rivers which overfiow during the rainy sea­ tain districts of Northern Bihar and certain son and most of the water flows away intothe d;stricts in Madhya Pradesh hav9 acute sea. This water ca:) be channelised i"to shortage of water. t lenc~, surplus water watersheds to be utilised in summer when from other parts &hould be d,vE:frted and the watf:!r table genera!ly recedes. There is stored in watershed!; to be used in these also great need to the expedite the plan of ~tates. de-salination of brackish water so that po­ table water could be provided to the people. In Northern part of Karnataku, espe" Then the urban water supply system t,as cially during summer, therE, 1<) acid cootent in also to be undertaken on a war footing as in the watorthat is available. 5('\, I would like to most of the urban areas we find that thAre is know from the Minister what steps he would a great shortage of water supply. Especially take to see that t":5 problem is eradicated. the city of Bangalore has been facing a great deal of water shortage. fhough there are two There is a National TechnolllgY MiSSion stages of Cauvery water supply scheme that cm Drinking Water and there are also various have been introduced and the third stage is schemes under th., 20-Point Programme. 147 Disc. on Shortage MAY 12, 1989 of Drinking Water 148

(Sh. Srikanta Datta Narashnharaja Wadiyar] table in most parts of the country, especially in Karnataka. Sir, I would also urge upon the So, I urge the Minister that these schemes Gov~rnment to take immediate steps to be implemented and the various bore-wells, prevent pollution of rivers and tanks in Kar­ taps, tanks and mini water supply scherne~ nata":). I hope the hen. Minister would kindty be renewed so as to provide adequate wa­ look into the points made by me and tell us ter, especlally to the people of Karnataka. what he would do in this respect. Thank you.

I would also urge upon the Minister to [ Trans/ation] complete the various water supply schemes that have been on the plan of the State ·SHRI GOPALA KRISHNA lHCTA Government of Karnataka. The third stage of (Kakinada): Mr. Chairman, Sir, eVt:Jn alter Cauvery is incomplete. It has to be expe­ forty 1wc years after independence, we have dited. Schemes for water supply to Banga­ failed to provide drinking water to our people lore city and also the extension of the water living in the villages. It speaks of the failure ()f supply to Mysore city have to be completed the Government in proper utilisation of we. as the new extensions do not have adequate ter. Eighty percent of the water is stili goinO water ~upply system. This is causing great wa~t~. It i~ time for the Govt. to properly strain on the population. assess its performance. The Government should at once try to identity the defects in I wOllld also (equest the Minister to the policy a'1d take steps to rectify them. kindly see that the various canals that ht:ve Proper water management is essential for been undertaken are completed so fhat In the de.;elopment of the nation. future thiC) problem could be prevenl£d. Water is very essential for the survival of There is also a large nUfTlber of old not only human beings but also for every canals which once used to serve 3S canals liVIng being. Man roquires water. Chattels for supplying drinki'19 water. I feel that in the and other animals also require water. It is the present context these canals should also be prime necessity of a living being. Water is reneweo so that adequate supply of water is equally essential for agriculture. Even for provided to the p60ple wf)o are affected by generation of hydro-electric power, water is thesa can3ls. the essential component. Such is the impor· tance of water. Industries do need water. U,'ban water supply system ha~ to be Hence providing water to human beings and undertaken on a warloot!ng and a 10ngE r­ cattle, agriculture and industry is very impor· term plan for utilisation of excess water, tant. 11 calls for a. proper water mal1ag&ment. espgdaily d:Jring floocis, has to be under­ The progress of the nation is very much taken. dependent on proper utilisation of water.

Industrialisation has causad a great de~1 Dr. K.L. Rao and some other eminent in strain and has also been using a great deal engineers have suggested in the past vari­ of water. Hence, without the industries suf­ ous schemes for utilising the water properly. farina, we should also see that adequate Dr. K.L Rao suggestod a garland canal water is made a'/aiiable to the people. system for the country. (Interruptions) AI­ inost eVAryono is 3ware of the benefits of this I would also urge up~n the Minister to scheme. Ours i-; a very big country. While kindly undertake the programme of affores· some parts of the country get washed away tation becaus.a this se(lms to be one of the in floods, some other parts reel under acute majOr c.auses for inadequate rainfall and drought conditions. Floods and droughts are also for ~oil erosion which has greatly con· a recurring phenomenon. somewhere it is tributed to the silt!ng of various tanks, river~ too much of water and some where else it is and dams. This has led to recodinp of V'!~ter _ __!cute shortage of water. Hence in order to • franslation of the speech Originally c'ehvered in Te1ugu. 149 Disc. on Shortage VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA) of Drinking Water 150

save the country from these natural calami­ projects should be taken up and executed as ties. Dr. K. L. Rao has proposed garland national projects by the Central Govern­ canal system linking the northern rivers with ment. The State Gover nment is too poor to the rivers in the extreme south. If imple­ e)(ecute these projects on its own. mented, this ~hemQ will provide to be a boon to the oountry. We can tame the rivers Now two thirds of the money of allo­ like Brahmaputra which overflow every year cated is being spent on utilisation of surface cAusing lot of damage and divert the excess water only. This is not proper. Money avail­ Yrater of these rivers to other parts which able for exploiting the underground water starve of water. Hencethe entire country will resource is quite negligible. As everyone be benefitted by this scheme. But this scheme knows, we have a plenty of undergrounf: still remains only on paper. This scheme of water which is yet to be tapped. Hence more linking up of major rivers still remains a money should be allocated for tapping under­ distant dream. ground water. This may we can help the people in the areag where there is no surface Sir, only two districts in Andhra Pradesh water. Towns and cities in the country are were identified under technological mIssion expanding tootast. Urban:satton is also going on drinking water. Atleast 8 distnc:s in Andhra on very rapidly. Municipalities, MUnicipal Pradesh constantly reel under drought. All Corporations and Panchayats do not have the~~ eight districts are acutely drought sufficient money to supply drinking water to prone. All these eight districts should be the people. As a result the drinking water selected under the programme. Andhl a problem is becoming more and more acute. Pradesh is widely known as the state of Hence suffldent funds should be allocated rivers. But the tragedy is that though we have to Ihem for providing drinking water. In all the many rivers, there is a constant scarcity of muniCipal areas the population is double and water. In fact scarcity of water in Andhra sometimes Trouble to the population they Pradesh is much more than in other States. had at the time of independence. It is becom­ Godavari is a very big river. Unfortunately no ing increa'Singly difficult to provide drinking effort was made by the Central Government water to the increas9d population continuing to harness the Godavari water. In addition to with the old schemes. Thpy reed rapid the river water, tt,ere is a plenty of u~der­ expansIon. There are plenty of water re­ ground water in adjacent areas accordIng to source~. yet ihey do nt}t have money for the opinion of scientIsts and ~nglneer5. ThiS taking up any new scheme for supplying underground water is yet to be explOited. drinking watei to more people. Hence I re­ The exploitation of underground water In thiS quest the Central Govt. to provide sufficient area is the primary responeibihty of the Cerltral moneytothe municipalities and Panchayats Government. Much of the Godavar i water is for taking ~teps 10 provide drinking water in now flowing waste into the sea. Polavaram accordance wnh their population. and Ichhampalli projects are two important projects on river Godavari envisaged for FInally, Sir, I request the Centra! Gov­ better utilisation if its watel. But unfortu­ elnment to set up a National Drinking Water nately these projects have not been clAared Board which can properly monitor and coor­ as yet by the C~ntral Government. More dinate various activities undertaken to pro­ than seventy percent of Godavari water IS vide drinKinq waler to everyone in the coun· flowing waste into the S9:l. The same watsl try. could be utilised once thti:rse projects are executed. Hence I plead tor the early clear­ I thank you for giving fT'9 this opportunity ance of these ~wo importdnt projects. These to speak and conclude my speech. projects would benefit not only Andhra Pradesh but also adjacent states. Hence the SHRI MOHO. AVUB KHAN (Jhunjnunu): clearance of these important proj~s should Mr. Chairman Sir, , rise to express my view be delayed any more. Sir. these imporant on the problqm of drinking water. The whote 151 Disc. on Shottage MAY 12,1989 of Drinking Water 152

ISh. t-iohd. Ayub Khan] Canal is made 8vailabie there. DUring ma· chines should be sent in my area at the of Rajasthan is reeling under the acute prob­ earliest so that people could be benefited. lem of drinking water. The crop has been Some people have sunk tubewells by using good in Rajasthan this year but barring a few motors. At places where people use mmor, areas, the rains have not been good enough the flat rate is Rs. four thousand. A person to let the ground water level rise and, thereby pays this amount, but he can get water for relieve the people of the problem of drinking hardly 2-3 hours. This rule should be water. The problem of drinking water has amended and ~he flat rate shou Id be charged been most severe in Rajasthan this year and in accordance with the time for which the the people are pining for water. My submis­ motor is used A survey should be conducted sion is that if a scheme for 35 thousand to find out the cause of leakage of ground villages and 210 towns is not prepared right water in our area. the people associated with now and if the funds requested by the Ra­ the technology mission say that the flow of jasthan Government are not apprJved and water ir. that area is in the reverse direction. allocated, the people of Rajasthan will have A survey should be conducted for this as to face a big problem. The ~ndira Gandhi well. Deep tubewells should be installed at canal passes through the neighborhood of places where ground water is available so my cOflstitusncy, Jhunjhunu. If the Central that the people could get water. The problem Government does not take this work in its of water is very acute in Rajasthan. live­ own hands, the Rajasthan Government will stock is the mainstay of the people of Rajast· never be able to complete the work because han dnd if the cattle itself drink saline water, this is a very big project and the Rajasthan it faces numerous problems. The problem of Government is already short of resources. drinking water is particular!y severe in my Drinking water can be made available to constituency Jhunjhunu. A dark zone has Jhunjhunu through the Indira Gandhi Canal. been deciared in Chidava and Udaipurwati, The problem of drinking water is pa1icularly meaning thereby that there is no ground severe in that ar~a. There are some areas in water there. However, the fact is that water my constituency where people have to go as is present there. In this situation, they should far as 6 to 10 kilometres to fetch wa~er due to get the facility of sinking wells. So far, they the probl~m of hrackish water. If water of this are depdved of this facility. My submission is canal is made available to Jhunjhunu for that tJ)ey should be relievea of the dark zone drinking purposes, this problelT' could be so that the farmers there could get assis· solved there. The Khetri Project is operating tance from the Government to sink wells. there which dra~s 2.5 million gallons 01 Ponds and bunds should be constructed at ground water. The Hariyapa Canalis a dis­ places so that the rain water could be stored. tance of 13 kilometres from there and if water Approval for constructing bunds over the for this project is !ak6n from that cananl the nullahs should be accorded especially in present practise of fetching ground water will Udaipurwati and Khetri which are hilly areas be stopped. Its b9nefit, thus, will be that the so that the water level could risa. There is a water level of wells will rise and people will village named Bagoll in my constituency. As get some reii&f from the problem of dnnking ,the land in that village is under the forest water. Khetri and Udaypurwati are hilly ar­ authority, bound cannot be constructed. This eas and the water level there has receded haCl craated acute water crisis in the area. If al"d use of drilling'machines is a probleMatic the Government sanctions its construction, affair there. It being hilly area, the problem of the proble:11 of water can be solved and drinking water is very acutp. I would request water c.an be made available for irrigation that keeping in vIew the problems Clf the hilly purposes as well. I would like to urge that the areta, a scheme should be formulated for it at Central Gcwernment should take over the tho earliest af'd drinking water shoutd be Indira Gandhi Canal project and also accord made available to tne people. 1 ;,is will be early sanction to the demand amounting to poss\ble only when thewaterof InciiraGandhi As. 130 crores put forward by the Rajasthan 153 Disc. on Shortage VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) of Drinking Wat9r 154

Government. Rs. 45 to As. 55 crores have shortage of water. They say, with the rainfaH been demanded to tackle the water crisis in being 30/0 less than normal the ground water the urban areas and As. 75 crores have level has gone down considerably. They been demanded for tackling the same in the have also referred how in Madras city and rural areas. This demand should oe met at Madurai, the supply of water is for alternate the earliest. The survey team has already day and not daily or for the whole day. It has submitted its report and Government should been there for many years. It has been a make arrangements accordingly so that the perennial problem. No solution could be people of Rajasthan could be saved from the found over the years in the past. acute drinking water crisis prevailing there. There is a report about Orissa also. The Rajasthan is in the gripof severe famine whole of Orissa is under the kind of drought­ conditions. The people of Rajasthan will for like situation. Districts 80langir. Kalahandi, ever to grateful to the Han. Prime Minister for Keonjhar, Mayurbhanj, Koraput, Sambalpur, having granted an amount which is unprece­ Sundergarh and Phulbani and affected. dented during the last 40 years. That is why, There is no water. Riv~lets have no water; it became possible to save the livestock as ponds have no water. Fromthetubewell, you well. If due attention is not paid to the water cannot get water because the depth has problem, the situation will take a critical turn. gone down. All the cities and towns are Therefore, the Central Government should affected. People are living in a very serious meet the demands of the Rajasthan Govern­ situation. ment at the earliest. Water of the Indira Gandhi Canal should be supplied for solving In Bihar also, the situation can be gauged the drinking water problem in my constitu­ from the fact that the State capital, Patna is ency and for irrigation purposes inJhunjhunu .. reeling under water crisis. According to offi· Some other districts of Rajasthan such as cial sources, against the daily requirement of Barmar and Jaisalmer are also reeling under 840 lakh gallons of water, the supply is 350 acute shortage of water. If work is not under­ lakh gallons. The report suggests an acute taken in every district in a planned manner, water shortage in Dhanbad, Gaya. Muzaf· tha livestock of those areas will be affected farpur, Dharbhanga, Saharsa, Kathihar and by water shortage. Therefore, I would urge Purnea districts. the Government to pay attention in this direc­ tion, so that the water problem could be In Kerala also, the crisis is there. This is solved. the third year in succession that they are not having any rain and people are suffering. With these words, I conclude and thank About Rajasthan, the other hon. Members you for giving me time to make my submis­ how have preceded me have spoken. Ra· sion. jasthan also has this perennial problem. What steps we have taken in the past to see [English] that, when there ;s failure of monsoon, there is provision to meet the minimum require· SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOWDHARY ments of the people for their drinl{ing water. (Katwa): Sir, a very serious situation is now I will come to something where the Govern· prevailing in the country due to shortage of ment can playa vital role of safeguarding the drinking water in many parts. If you have interests of the people and providing the seen various Press reports, tnen the picture people with drinking water. Even in the fail­ becomes very alarming. I have before me ure of monsoon, we have the role. Due to the Hindustan Times of 8th May, 19B9. They deforestation, it happens. We should not do have given a report as to in how many that. How would you motivate the people to States, the crisis has become very severe. I go for afforestation? There are many find, Tamil Nadu as one among them. Sev· schemes. But that are not being implemented eral parts of the State are reeling under sincerely. When we travel across the coun- 155 Disc. on Shortage MAY 12.1989 of Drinking Water 158

[Shri Saifuddin Chaudhary] Government to release their share of mar­ ginal money amounting to Rs. 11.87 crores. try. we can find many trees which we ptanted This is a very human question. No politics have dried up and leaves dried up. No life is are there. Both the Statement Government there in dry land. It is just a sign of death. Why and the Central Governmen1 should see, is this kind of thing happening? Who planted how in this peculiar situation, they can stand those saplings and plants? Who are the by the people. There may be serious crisis in authorities and agencies who are supposed many areas where you just cannot have to water them? You can get water at least in water I even deep tube well. There you have certain parts. But nobody is to look after the to meet the problem differently. There may trees and they die due to this kind of neglect. be certain areas where Hyou have deep tube Due to less concern about environment, due well, then water can be available. But the to lack of culture also, some times we are money is the question. Is there any plan by suffering from our own mistake making. which we can immediately recognise acute water shortage area where deep tube well In Uttar Pradesh, also the report is there. can solve the problem there? We must then Kanpur is getting only 270 million liters of sanction money to meet the situation. water a day, compelling the pe,?ple to con­ sume water unfit for drinking purpose. Hima­ We are facing this problem of water chal Nagaland and some other states are shortage due to various reasons. Everybody affected. In my State also, in West Bengal, I has referred to them. 750/0 of the water runs have a report that most of the districts in away. We cannot use it. Why can't we use ~ West Bengal have been affected by severe properly? How are we trying to augment our kind of water shortage this year. In some capacity to use it? In earlier days, may be districts, the deficiency in rainfall has been to thousand years ago, there was a system in the extent' of 90%. Water level has gone our country whereby in every village, we down up to 20 feet from normal level at many were having tanks for drinking and for culti­ places. Most affected districts in Purulia, vation. Now that tradition has gone. We are Bankura, Birbhum, Midnapore, Burdwan, now talking of many schemes like NREP, Maida, West Dinajpur, Murshidabad, Hooghly RLEGP and the Jawahar Rozgar Yojana and North Bengal. 120 lakh people in 1,471 etc. I want to know in how many villages the villages or 196 blocks, 32 municipalities and new ponds have been dug. In how many four notified areas are severely affected. villages in our country the old ponds were The rabi crop is now severely damaged due deepened? This ;s a very vital question. to the non-availability of water. We have These ponds not only give drinking water confidence in the State Government there. and irrigation water but they help you in They have taken up the issue very seriously. economic activity. We can have fish culture The Ministers in the State Government are there. Certain unemployed people can get going to the villages. The Administration jobs. I am sorry that I find in many places there has been toned up. There is a pan­ ponds which have lost theirdepth. Just in the chayat which is also acting to provide drink­ beginning of summer they dry up. Here we ing water. Where the normal tube wells are require a kind of motivation. It is very impor­ not working, they are planning how to dig tant. In that panchayats can play an impor­ tube wells deep there to get water and they tant role. have allocated money. I find that As. 11 crores are being released for augmentation We have our canal system for irrigation in of drinking water resources. The Chief Min­ certain areas. There are suggestions given ister has sanctioned As. 50 lakhs. Some by experts that this water management out· more money has been given. It is not a look has to be changed In certain areas. We political question. They want the Central have to undertake a different kind of irriga­ Government to help them in meeting the tion system, the sprinkler type of system in crisis and they have requested the Central order to avoid wastage. The concept of 157 Disc. on Shortags VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA) of Drinkinq Wat.r 158

economic use of water has to be put into the have the resources collected. This is very cutture of our people. When we find that important. After 42 years of Independence many parts of our country reel under sever people do not get drinking water, what to talk drinking water shortage, we have to think as of having a safe drinking water for everybody to how to create the habit among our people by 1990 i How can we claim prov;ding all to be very carefui In using water and not to these things to the people? I am not going waste it. We have to study carefully all these into the statistics given by the hone Minister. systems and see as to how to face that How many villages are problem villages? s~uation. How many villages are not having any source of drinking water? It has been mentioned Sir, there are certain failures on the part that 1,50, 000 villages are there where people ot the Administration. Certain projects are have to go more than 1/112 KMs. to get undertaken. They are all time·bound proJ- drinking water. We must know how the people I eets. But they are never completed in time. are suffering to get water. Can we maintain There are delays. These projects can be ourselves when there is no water? Le1 us used for drawing drinking water also. But leave the animals for the time being. They they are not at all completed in time. There is die when there is no water. Even now also crtminal wastage of funds. 10-12 years are people are taking contaminated and polluted wasted. The people continue to suffer. The water. So, these are very important issues. H\)n. Minister '

[She SaHuddin Choudhary) more dependent on grodnd water now. One reason behind this phenomenon is the in­ Central Government. You should not waver creasing silt deposits on the river-beds which in helping them. has resulted in the reduction of the depth of the rivers. The example of Yamuna river can SHRt E. AYY APU REDDY (Kurnool): be cited in this regard. The present depth of We should have a permanent Drinking Water th is river is 12 to 14 feet less than what it was Board. in 1950, and the river's water holding capac~ ity has been reduced thereby. It is common SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOWDHARY: Shri knowledge that rainfall graph has been Ayyapu Reddyji has suggested that we showing downward trend during the last few should have a permanent National Drinking years and it may slide further is future on Water Board. Well, that is a very good account of the rapid deforestation. The rain­ suggestion. Maybe, thaycan coordinate with fall pattern has also been affected. There is Water Technology Mission. That is a very heavy downpour for 3 or 4 days and thereaf­ good idea. We can think of this kind of an ter, we experience complete dry weat~er for idea. But the main question is that we have months together. Besides, the rains also do to use our resources effectively. Otherwise, not come on time. I think, there is only one where you have a drinking water crisis, de solution to the problem. You may go around you understand how the economy is harmed, the world and you will find only one solution how the agriculture is harmed? You do not to this problem. If you go to Africa, you will alk about irrigation. The crops are damaged. find that the Britishers built dams on the And that has its effect on the industrial pro­ rivers in the countries which were under their duction and ultimately the total economy will combination, and in contrast, wherever the be in the shambles. When we talk about French ruled, they constructed rapids which drinking water, we do not talk only about the we call Stock dams. The Congo river which drinking water but we talk about the vital flows through five countries, can be taken as question of economy. With the cooperation an illustration in this connection. More than of Central and State Governments, I believe, 40 rapids have been constructed on the we will take certain steps that will help In Congo river alone and I have myself seen tackling the situation and fighting the Crisis them. We call them stop-dams. Today it is that has emerged in our country. Thank you. essential to construct such rapids on the French pattern. The construction of dams on [ Translation] all the rivers in the country is a difficult proposition and will give rise to many prob~ SHRI CHANDULAL CHANDRAKAR lems. Of course, they serve a useful purpose (Durg): Mr. Chairman, Sir, the drinking water but a lot of funds are required for constrlJct­ problem is gradually taking a critical shape ing dams and, besides, lakhs of poor people throughout the country. Rainfall is gradually have to be displaced and they are rendered decreasing as compared to what it was 25 to homeless and without any means of liveli­ 30 years ago. In many areas either there has hood. It is always assured that they will be been no rainfall at all since the past several rehabilitated somewhere and funds, iand, years or it has been scanty. That is why, the etc. will be provided to tham. But sir, I have areas which were completely dependent as seen at many places, right from the Bhakra­ on rain-fed irrigation system some 30 to 35 Nagai projectto small dams that they are not years ago have to depend on tubewell, rehabilitated anywhere but are simply ousted. handpumps etc. today. Within these 30 to 35 .Ne one is able to appreciate the problems of years, the number of tubewells has risen to those outsees. The only way to solve this 35 lakhs in the country and the number of problem is to construd a large number of wens and handpumps has gone up to over dams on the pattern of the congo river. The 50 lakhs. Thus. our farmers who used to construction of Stock dams on big rivers will depend largely on rainfall previously are require heavy expenditure whereas suen 161 Disc. on Shortage VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) of Dflnking Water 162

dams on small rivers will involve expenditure particularly in Madhya Pradesh whose to­ In the range of 3 to 5 crores depending on the pography is such that the central part of the span of the river. This is less than what is State is quite lofty as a result of which most required for the construdion of dams. 25 to of the rivers emerging from there flow into 30 or 40 stop dams can be construded on the adjoining 7 States. It is good that water of each river. It will not only check the rapid all these rivers is utilised, but if the Dredgers decline of water level but will also raise the Corporation is set up and dams are con­ level of water. In addition, in view of the large structed on all these rivers to hold back scale silt deposits due to land erosion and water, it will help considerably in solving the other factors, it has become essential 10 set drinking water problem in the States. In up an organisation such as the Dredgers Madhya Pradesh, only 17 districts were af­ Corporation of India for clearing the river fected by drought eatlier but now the situ­ beds on the lines of the one set up for ation has deteriorated so much so that 20 to dredging the Suez Canal. It is essential to set 22 districts are reeling under the water· up a similar organisation for the Calcutta shortage problem and in some districts it has

Port so that constant dredging and clearing taken a very critical tUi n. I cannot l state the of the river-beds is ensured so as to check position of other States accurately because their silting and sedimentation. Therefore, I do not have proper information buNt is a fact the Central Government should take the that 20 distriets in Madhya Pradesh are responsibility of constructing Stock dams on seriously affected. The State Government every large river. I knowthatthe setting upof had demanded Rs. 40 to 45 crores or per· the Dredgers Corporation of India will in­ haps 50 crores to tackle the situation, so that volve a vast expenditure running into thou­ the drinking water problem could be solved. sands of crores and besides, it is also a very ; difficu~ task but it will be comparatively Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would like to submit cheaper than that is spent every year on through you and through and Minister of tackling the drought or the water shortage Rural Development that the Centre shQuld problem and for providing relief assistance not delay allocation of required funds \1or to the people. At the same time it will remove tackling the drinking water problem in the their d~ficu~ies. This can be illustrated by State. The sooner this is done, the earlier will expenditure incurred to tackle the drought be people get its benefits. The people will get situation last year. It was the worst drought of relief within this year itself and they will not the century and there can be no doubt on the have to suffer acute crisis of water during the

I point that Shri Rajiv Gandhi has been a very months of May, June and July. You are not

i far-sighted person in extending maximum aware as to what type of water people are financial assistance to every drought af­ drinking in the rural areas these days. They fected States, be it Rajasthan, Gujarat, are drinking the worm-infested water of the Andhra Pradesn.or Karnataka. Funds were ponds. The han. Minister of Rural Develop­ liberally granted wherever it was felt neces­ ment is also present here today alongwith sary. I cannot give the exact ftgures but some of his other colleagues and I would like according to my estimates, about As. 5,000 that the Central Government should provide crores were provided as relief assistance by funds immediately to the State Governments the Centre last year. This enabled the State which have demanded the same for tackling Governments in saving the people from the water crisis irrespective of whether the starvation and from the horror of near fam ine Ruling Party or the Opposition is in power in , conditions. When arrangement can be made the respective States. One thing which f for providing Rs. 5,000 crores in one year, would like to point out, in particularly, is then As. 1000 crores can also be initially about Madhya Pradesh. The State Govern­ spent for the setting up of the Dredgers ment as well as the people want that a big Corporation of India which can be expanded dam should be constructed on Indiravati gradually. I would like that similar corpora­ river in Bastar district. Similarly, a big dam tion should be set tip in every state and should be constructed on river Narmada. 163 Disc. on Shortage MAY 12, 1989 of Drinking Water 164

[Sh. Chandulat Chandrakar] face the probtem of water scarcity. I WOuld like to Government to get Oelhi's share from Mr. Chairman, Sir, in connection with Bhakra and a new plant should be set up at proposal for constructing major dams on Haiderpur at the earliest which should get Indirawati and Narmada rivers, I would like to more water from Yamuna and that water submrt that if you want to convert Madhya should be supplied to fulfil the requirements Pradesh into a desert in the next 50 years, of people. Similar, Sir, you may be aware you may go ahead with those projects and if that Ganga water is also supplied for drink­ not, they must be shelved. In place of dams, ing purposes in various parts of Delhi like large Stock-dams may be constructed. It will New Delhi, South Delhi, Mehrauli etc. DDA help in storing water and water can b9 sup­ has developed a number of residential colo­ plied to the people through the lift system. nies towards Babarpur and the people of Besides, Sal trees are grown in large num­ those areas often complain of water scarcity. bers in the Narmada delta. Mr. Chairman, A plant should be set lip in that area and Sir, you may be aware that the Sal trees are more Ganga water should be brought so that found only in 3 countries in the world namely the requirements of the people in these Thailand, Bangladesh and India. A 70 year colonies is fully met. However, I would like 10 old Sal tree has the capacity of water stor­ thank the Hon. Prime Minister for installing a age equivalent to a well. What is special numher of tubewells and handpumps during about It is that it collects and stores water drought last year; which is helping the people during the rainy season and release the a lot at present. Water is supplied alsothrough same during the summers. tankers in those areas which are running short of water-supply but inspite of all these Trees as old as 150 years are there in measures the increasing population in Deihl that area. It is easy to fell the trees, but In putting heavy pressure on the existing nobody bothers to plant them. I don't want to water supply. Resettlement colonies devel­ get into a controversy by pointing at those oped during the reign of Shrimati Indira who fell them or those who reap the benefit. Gandhi get haH the water supply these days But I would like to submit that the poor people due to the shortage of drinking water though suffer heavy loss due to the felling of trees. earlier they used to get uninterrupted water supply. Many tube-wells were installed in a Sir, 20 to 40 years ago people believed number of J.J. colonies and unauthorised that one could easily get pure water and air, colonies but the water from these sources is but these two things are likely to become the not as good as that of Ganga and Yamuna. most precious things in the near future. My submission is that Haiderpur Plant should be set up at the earliest and another plant in I would reiterate to constitute Dredging rural area-either near Gohana cana! or Corporation of India and construct a stop Nanglo; should be set up onorder to provide dam on every river. With these words I think adequate water supply to the growing popu· you for giving me an opportunity to speak. lation. We want that they should get suffl· clent water to meet the basis necessities like SHRI BHARAT SINGH (Outer Delhi): bathing, cooking etc. Sometimes It happens

Mr. Chairman, Sir t today we are discussing that the taps go dry and we are deprived of the problem of drinking water. There is no even a bath. Persons like me, keep on wait­ doubt that the population of Delhi has in­ ing with a hope, that, I will go to Parliament creased rapidly and at present the total only after taking bath. population is more than 80 lakhs. DDA ac­ quired land in rural areas and developed residential colonies like Rohini, Vikas Puri. Adequate funds should be sanctioned Paschim Puri and many others, butthe water to Delhi Administration and labour should be supply remained as it was before. Therefore, arranged so that the work is taken up imme­ the people residing in these colonies often diately there. Water is the basis necessity of 165 Disc. on Shoffage VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) of Drinking Waler 186 tife. Antmals in rural areas also need water to after seven Five Year Plans nearly one·third survive. of the villages in our country are reeling under water scarcity. You know there are no rains these days and the ponds in rural areas have dried up 18.00 hrs. and there is no water for the animals. My submission is that the water supplied for It is necessary that this should be tack .. irrigation purposes from canals in Haryana, led on a nattonal basis. We are discussing should also be supplied for ponds so that the this subject here because it is not a State animals can take more water and give more subject or a Panchayat subject; it is ana.. milk. tional subject. Drinking water is a national problem. Therefore, it is very appropriate I have made there requests so that the that we discuss it here. We should have a hon. Minister of water Resources allocates national drinking water policy. more funds to Delhi so that 4 more plants can be set up. Besides, water supply should also One of the solutions for drinking water be increased and a separate quota for Delhi problem is that all the pending irrigation should be fixed to meet the water scarcIty. projects should be completed at the earliest. Many of the irrigation projects in our country Mr. Chairman, Sir, I thank you for giving could not be completed for want to funds. me an opportunity to participate in the dis­ The State finances are very very limited and cussion. We should make immediate efforts they cannot complete these projects out of to meet the scarcity of water in Delhi. their own finance and that is why many of the projects wh~ch were scheduled to be com­ [Engltsh] pleted within 3-4 years could not be com­ pleted even after 20-30 years. My sugges­ THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE tion is that all the major irrigation projects in MINISTRY OF SURFACE TRANSPORT our country should be treated as national AND DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE MINIS­ projects and the Centre should take that TRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (SHRI responsibility. P. NAMGYAL): Sir, since many hen. Mem­ bers want to participate in the debate I re­ Nearly one-third of the villages of our quest that the time of the House may be country do not have drinking water. In many extended by one hour. of the Villages, people have to walk many kilometers to bring water particularly when MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the pleasure of there is drought situation. We have been the House to extend the time by one hour? reading about that in the newspapers as also seen in the media, television etc. The situ .. SOME HaN. MEMBERS: Yes. ation in Rajasthan, Maharashtra and Karna­ taka particularly during drought is very very SHAt V.S. KRISHNA IYEA (Bangalore bad. This is a problem which should be South): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am happy that tackled on war footing. we are discussing a very important and one of the burning problems of our country be­ 1n Karnataka, for four con secutJ 'Je years, cause the common man wants to know we had drought problem. Similar was the whether this august House is concerned situation in Maharashtra. I would be faiUng in about his welfare. Drinking water IS the basic my duty if I do not remember one person, necessity of every individual, animal and who was the Rural Development Minister in plant which has Ufe. We have adopted a Karnataka, Shr; Nazir Saheb; he died very national water policy but, unfortunately, we recently and Shr; Poojary also knew him. He do not have a drinking water policy for our did yeomanssarvice in providing drinking country. After 42 years of tndependence and water to 25000 villages of Karnataka. Most 167 Disc. on Shortage MAY 12,1989 of Drinking Water 168

ISh. V.S. Krishna Iyar] In Bangalore City hundreds of crores of rupees are spent on the water schemes. We of the villages got drinking water supply due have been requesting the Central Govern­ to this untiring efforts. He is otherwise called ment since long time, I think I myself have NirSaheb; Nirmeans water in our language. made several requests, even in the time of Nehru several requests were made for pro­ This problem of water scarcity becomes viding adequate funds but unfortunately not acute when there is no underground water; a single paise has been accorded from the and the water level goes down. It is a very Centr al Govern ment for the Bangalore water serious matter. Borewells are also of no use. scheme. In Bangalore we have so many There is no other source of water. When the industries and so many defence establish­ water level goes down, what should bedone. ments are there. Now, we have taken up the We should try to conserve water. The only Cauvery-III project which requires crores of course would be that they have to depend on rupees but for that also the Central Govern­ Monsoon and the rain water. The question is ment is not providing any fund. It is the how to conserve rain water. There is so responsibility of the Central Government. much advance in technology. I am sure, the Drinking water is one of the basic necessi· han. Minister Shri Poojary will give his spe­ ties. Man cannot live even for a day without cial attention to this problem. Rural water water. supply is very important. When the water level of the underground water goes down, My last point is that Sir, we are wasting what should be done, that needs to be seri­ a lot of money on the development of beau­ ously considered. tiful parks. I am not saying that parks should not be developed but what I am objecting to Sir, I come from a hundred percent is that the filtered or treated water should not urban constituency. I was also Minister of be used for this purpose. I have seen 'Nater Rural Development in my State for some flowing like the tanks in the parks. I would like time. It appears that the Rural Development to know whether it is treated water or just raw Ministry at the Centre is a Ministry for Rural water I think you should have a separate line Development for Delhi alone. ThIrty percent for watering the park. of the population is in urban areas. Will you kindly quote and example of any city or town, I am sure the Minister will give attention which is self-sufficient in water supply? I find to these aspects. He should take up all the that every town, every metropolitan city or big cities and solve the drinking water prob­ other city is suffering from water scarcity t lem. particularly when the summer sets in. In Bangalore city, we are facing that scarcity. [ Trans/ation] Though we have three water schemes there, Thippa Gonda Hali and Kaveri, State I and 2, SHRI RAM BHAGAT PASWAN (Ros­ yet in many areas we do not get sufficient era): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am grateful to you water. There is a lot of disparity in our coun­ for providing me an opportunity to speak. try; while some people get 100-150 liters per Though my name should have been called day, there are others, who do not even get much earlier in the serial still I am grateful one litre per day. The State Governments that you have done justice. are doing better in this regard but their hands are very tight. They do not have enough [English] funds. The Hon. Minister for Urban Develop­ ment must pay his attention to every town SHRI SOMNATH RATH (Aska): Sir, I and city in our country. I would say that the have a point of order. One hon. Member said top most priority should be given to the that the Chair is foUowing some serial num­ drinking water. For the rural areas, the Rural ber. I want to know from you what is the Development Minister is taking care. meaning of the serial number. As per rules, 169 Disc. on Shortage VAtSAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) of Drinking Waf,,! 170

It is the discretion of the Chair to give a have been installed at the places where big chance and call a member to $peak. It is the people live. Therefore the Government whips who intimate the names to the Chair. should issue instructions that such arrange­ How can there be a serial number? Is the ments should be made at the places where Chair bound by some numbers? To know they are required. Bihar is facing drought at that. present too and our Harijan ladies have to go to distant places to bring water in our area. MR. CHAIRMAN: You are right. The list So far my constituency ;s concerned, it ;8 a is for the guidance of the Chair. Ordinarily, flood prone area but even then at present we follow it. But we have got a discretion. there is drought. There are floods in Aaos .. era, Haseenpur, Baheri, Sangthi etc. even SHRI BRAJAMOHAN MOHANTY now. When we visit our areas people com­ (Puri): Regarding changing man into women plain that they do not get water. Sanctions and vice-versa, uptothat extend I hope your have been given for sinking tubewells but discretion is not extended. they have not been installed. This is the condition and money is not being properly MR. CHAIRMAN: I am not claiming utilised. If such condition prevails and the that. scarcity continues, villagers will not be able to bear it for long. Water should be available SHRI SOMNATH RATH: From his own there at a" times. In the past water used to experience the han. Member has spoken. remain clear in ponds and rivers. Water of the wells also used to be clean. This is a [ Translation] permanent solution but after installation of tubewells the SItuation has deteriorated. No SHRI RAM BHAGAT PASWAN: It can body fetches water from them now. Earlier be proved that nature provides 100 times water of the wells used to be hygienic. In the more water than the actual requirement of drought prone States the wells should be man. We are getting 100 times more water repaired and made deeper and silt should be than our actual requirement for irrigation and removed from ponds and rivers, only then for drinking purposes both for man and ani­ there can be a permanent solution. So far my mals but unfortunately PHED and flood constituency is concerned, there are 2·3 control department have not succeeded in schemes. There will be no scarcity of water meeting the water scarcity. So far our Bihar for Irrigation as well as drinking if they are is concerned, floods occur every year in completed. They are very important Bihar and after two months the people face schemes. There are two rivers named Karn­ drought. Water comes and flows away. There labalam and Bagm ati and also Gandak too are many rivers and dams too but the dams which cover long distant but then become cannot stop the flow of water. Therefore, I dry. Hthey are made deeper, the scheme is urge the Government to make such arrange­ there, money has also been sanctioned but ments that water is available for drinking, for no body knows as to why they are not made agriculture and for the cattle and that there deeper. The water is so clean there that it remains no scarcity of water. gives much relief after drinking. But they are not being made deeper. They are deep at So far as question of sinking tubewells some places and shallow at others. I urge is concerned, there are many villages inhab­ that Kamlabalan river which dries up at cer­ ited by Harijans, scheduled castes and sched­ tain places, should be made deeper. Simi .. uled tribes where the Government have larly there are Gandak and Bagmati rivers installed a good number of tubewells. But we which pass through my area. There are cannot blame Government for this because floods, droughts heavy rainfall. scarcity of there are such officers who sink tubewells at rainfall, all things happen there. If the prob .. places where they are not required and do lem of the drinking water is to be solved, the not sink them where they are needed. They rivers will have to be made deeper. Ponds 171 Disc. on Shortage MAY 12,1989 of Drinking Waf', 172

[Sh. Ram Bhagat Paswan] have died in large numbers, ~use of disease. The", Is the spread of diseases in should also be made deeper. The distant some districts, and the news has appeared places look like a fair where ladies from that at Paradip, a bucket of water is seHing Harijan and scheduled caste settlements go at Rs. 2/-. There has been a serious water to fetch water. You will have to look towards scarcity, due to scanty rain during the last such places. Our Government has done a lot seven months. I would tell Mr. Poojary this: of woO< for scheduled castes and scheduled because Go'J arnment has taken the respon­ tribes and had paid much attention to them. sibility of supplying drinking water to prob­ But arrangements should be made at all lem villages, they should not now be satis­ places where water is required. fied with dealing with problem villages along. A situation has occurred when there is scar­ I will also Hke to say that there are city of drinking water in all the villages. The certain areas like Gurudwara Rakab Ganj, policy of the Government is tt,is: during the Pant Marg and Talkatora road in Delhiwhere 7th Plan, it envisages that efforts would be water is supplied by Delhi Water Supply and made to cover the entire rural population Sewage Disposal Undertaking. There too, with the provision of safe drinking water water is supplied for two hours in the morn­ during the Plan period. I give stress on three ing and one hour in the evening. Complaints phrases, viz. 'entire rural population', 'safe are made regarding non-supply of water, drinking water' and 'during the Plan period.' they are noted and left unattended. Water So, these three words are very important. Of supply is not made. This problem should course, the provision for the rural water also be solved. supply sector in the 7th Plan is As. 3454.74 crores. Forthe Minimum Needs Programme The level of underground water has it is Rs. 2253.25 crores, and for the Centrally gone very low in our South Bihar. There is a sponsored Accelerated Rural Water Supply necessity of making immediate arrangement Programme it is Rs. 1201.22 crores. Be­ for water. The authorities should be asked to sides these, there are other normal pro­ purchase tubewells and make the rivers gramme also. It is said that during natural deeper so that water continues to be avail­ calamities like drought, funds are given on able at all times. for sinking wells. But why has this condition arisen throughout India, inspite of heavy With these words, I am grateful that I amounts said to have' been given to all the have been allowed to express my views. States? For example, it is said that from 1981 to 1986, the total amount given is Rs. [English] 1,19,171.11 lakhs.

SHAI SOMNATH RATH (Aska): Ther,e The Minister has stated on the 14th is drinking water crisis all over India. Orissa March, 1989, as follows: is facing the worst drinking water crisis in recent years. There is no pre-monsoon rain­ "A target of full coverage of 32698 fall in some districts. It is less by 80% to 90%. problem villages with safe drinking There is a remarkable decline in the water water facilities has been kept for 1988- table in the rivers. There is no flow of water 89.ln addition, 18500 partially covered in the river Mahanadi and other rivers. The problem viflages will be fully covered in small, shallow tubewells are not working at 1988-89. all. The lack of rains and all-round water scarcity are affecting the crops. as well as The National Technology Mission on power generation_ Drinking Water has been set up .. "

In some districts, water is not only not When all these measures have been taken. available; but people drinking polluted w'!ter why there has been a scarcity of water 173 Disc. on Shortage VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA) ofDrlnking Water 174

through out the country? It is for this reason. speak hare for the benefit of the people. When we sink a tubeweU, it does not reach Government should take the initiative. When that depth with the result that when under­ I am speaking on the Floor of the House, it ground water level goes down, it becomes should be. taken into consideration. The defunct. The tubewells are not sunk upto a Government should not say that the recom­ particularly level from where the water WIll mendation should oome from the State start coming, though huge amount has been Government and only then they will imple­ spent. It has been stated in the reply that a ment the scheme. By saying so, thev are huge amount has been given by the Govern­ putting the cart before the horse. We speak ment. In spite of all this, the crisis is arised. on behalf of the people whom we represent ThA tubewells do not reach that depth from and no further application or pet~ion is nec .. where the water starts coming; they stop essary. When we speak in the House, the sinking tubewells before the water starts Minister concerned takes note of our points: coming. The contractors and others take the officials in the gallery also take notes of away money without doing anything. During our points. They should see that all the summer, when the water strate goes down, central schemes are implemented not only • the tubewe"s become defunct. So, steps the recommendations of the State Govern­ should be taken to see that wells are sunk ments but also at the request of the Mem­ upto that depth so that during summer also bers of Parliament also. Or else. there is no water is available. use of our speaking here; Lok Sabha is not a talking shop. So, necessary steps should It seems that the Government of India be taken. has stopped the programme of supplying. drinking water to villages through pipes. I once again request the Urban Devel­ Though rivers and rivulets pass near the opment Minister to see that sufficient funds villages, the poliCY being to have tubewells are given under this scheme for semi-urban only In villages. When we have tubewells areas to Aska Parliamentary constituency. alone, at present, sweet water could not be Tanks have dned up in Orissa-pardon my supplied in some villages. But if we supply repeating-and shallow wells have become water to the villages from rivers and rivulets, defunct. Tubewell water is not coming and sweet water will be available and the sand so also in the other wells there is no water. bed can be utilised as a filter also. So, I would There is no water in the rivers. Under these request the Minister through you to re-con­ circumstances the situation should be tack· sider not only to have tubewells in the vil­ led on a war footing. People have died be~ lages but also the pipe system for supplying cause of drklking polluted water. Diseases dnnking water. are spreading. Under these circumstances I would like to request Mr. Poojary and also For the development of the semi-urban the Urban Development Minister to provide area, the schemes are framed by the Central sufficient funds to the Orissa Government to Government to give the necessary aid. But meet the situation and to see that drinking not a Single town in N.A.C. has been bene· water is made available for renovating the fited in my constituency, Aska under this tanks, sinking tubewells, giving water through scheme; not a single N.A.C. has been rec­ pipe system to the villages situated on the ommended by the Orissa Government to side of the rivers. If such steps are not taken Central Government to implement any of the on a war footing, the situation may be very schemes underthe development of the semi­ grave and will go out of control. There may urban area. In reply to my question, the be many more deaths and it must be averted Minister has said that the demand should at this juncture, giving priority. come through the Orissa Government. As representatives of the people in ParHament, SHAt PIYUS TIRAKY (Alipurduars); Mr. we urge, we request the Minister to see that Chairman, Sir, drinking water problem it a injustice should be done to any State. We national problem and many times it has been 175 Disc. on Shortage MAY 12,1989 of Drinking Water 176

[Sh. Piyus Tiraky] cause many problems have been solved when the political will has been shown. I ask: discussed jn this House. h has come up is this an eledlon issue as in the case of once again now. 'Garibi Hstao programme'? Why do you not say that by such and such date we will be One thing I should like to mention in the able to provide fresh drinking water to all the House. As election issues we have been people in the country? Many Members from taking so many issues such as IGaribi Hatao' both sides of the House have expressed and eradication of poverty etc. But why do their desire that ol;Jr poor people must get we not take up this issue also as an election fresh drinking water. issue. "Fresh drinking water to all' -this must be one issue for elections and it will have a [SHRI SOMNATH RATH in the Cha;~ good effed on all the people, to have drink­ ing water a11heir place. 18.31 hrs.

Another names for water is life. And if I would like to bring to the notice of the you say that we cannot supply our papula­ Government that most of the districts of tion with fresh drinking water, itisbad. Number West Bengal have been affected by serve of diseases are also spreading due to dirty drought. Worst-affected districts are Purulia, water being drunk. We in our country wor­ Bankura, Birbhum, Midnapore, Burdwan, ship the rivers, especially the holy Ganga. Maldah, West Dinajpur, Murshidabad and But we never bother about the pollution of Hooghly. 1291akhs people in 14717 villages our rivers. There are bruni'1g ghats by the of 196 Blocks, 32 Municipalities and 4 Noti­ side of our rivers, drainages are there which fied Areas are severally affected. The West empty the sewage into the rivers. We always Bengal Government had asked for immedi­ forget that the holy Ganga is also polluted ate release of then share of margin money and that there water is not at all fit for drink­ amounting to Rs. 11.87 crores. The amount ing. There are also many industries and the IS not much. The Government of India should refuge is going into the rivers all over India. be liberal in this regard and should provide AU the rivers are getting polluted. So, there drinking water to the people of West Bengal. must be a check on the industrialists who are The West Bengal Government has only asked throwing that refuse into the rivers to see that for immediate release of As. 11.87 crores. it does not reach the river without any treat­ All the resources are with the Central Gov­ ment. There should be some check on the ernment. The State Governments do not industrialists also so that they also show have their own resource or cannot raise some interest in the matter. money as they are not controlling banks and others. Every time, it is the Union Govern­ Also, essentially it is a problem all over ment which releases the funds and the India in the cities and in the villages also. We Ministers are visiting the drought affected have a number of villages. It is mentioned in areas. A liberal attitude should be taken by this report that there are 5,82,971 villages. the Union Government and it should see that Surely, it can be known as to how much the money should reach in time especially in money is required to supply drinking waterto hilly areas because 10 fetch water, one man each of the villages. An estimate of the is employed everyday. Our country is a vast money required can be made. It is men­ and a big cOuntry. We should not be afraid tioned in this report that there are 3,347 about it since the resources are also vast. villages which are problem villages and their Ours is a rich country with poor people. Many main problem is provision of drinking water. resources are there in our country. We have So, very easily it can be checked and it can to exploit the resources. For instance, much be found out which village has not yet been has been talked about Brahmaputra Ganga provided with fresh drinking water. If there is project. Ahuge amount of Brahmaputra water a political will, it can be easily solved be- is going into the sea and we are unable to 177 Disc. on ShortBQS VAISAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) of Drinking Wate, 178 exploit the water for the purpose of irrigation those areas I have not been able to do or drinking purpose or any other purpose. So anything for supply of drinking water in the these projects must be taken up so that we last four and a half years in spite of all efforts. can utilise Brahmaputra water for drinking , Those who came before me also tried and irrigation, navigation and other purpcses. failed. For non-availability of water goats, We have not yet exploited enormous re­ cows, bulls. buffaloes and other domestic sources of water. Our river bed is going up animals suffer and perish. As the tanks and because of the indiscriminate cutting of trees rivers get dried up, crop production is af­ from hills and hillocks in the country. Social fected. Crops wither away for want of water forestry and other schemes which come and a very serious situation develops. The under other Ministries shoutd be encour­ farmers face a miserable situation. Vege­ aged. The people should be taken into con­ table production also suffers. Whatever little fidence. They should be given the charge of is produced becomes so costly that the villages where afforestation is being done common people cannot buy them. It is be­ Unutilised land must be brought under for­ yond the purchasing capacity of the com­ estrY. Then only we can escape from drought mon man, who suffers in every way. For the and other vagaries of nature. But the most last two days I read in the West Bengal unfortunate part IS that we are pollutjng our newspapers that the relief minister has said, rivers without bothering how much harm we III have not declared drought in West Ben­ are doing to the nation. gal". But the Finance Minister said that there IS drought. Really there is drought in West Once again, I request the hon. MinIster Bengal. I do not know why the retief Minister to release funds to the States so that they has said that there Ie; no drought. I do not may be able to go on with the projects that w~nt to go in that question either. But I do a~e In hand for implementation. know that there IS drought in West Bengal. I will request the Centr al Government and the [ Translation] Government of West Bengal to hold talks Immediately on this issue and to take all *DR. PHULRENU GUHA (Contai): Sir, necessary measures expeditiously to com· I will not take more than f,ve minutes. We are bat the drought situation. today discussing here the shortage of drlnk- mg water In the country. Water and air are Sir. when there IS shortage of Iwater, the the two most Important things in the life of worst sufferers are the women folk. They man. A man may live for some days without have to bring water frorT' long distances with food but he cannot live without water He great dnficulty. At the time of drought, their falls III Without water and ir" most cases he :ondition become3 unbearable. What su1- dies. Without water we cannot cook our food, ferings they have to ~ndergo is only known to we cannottake bath and clean ourselves, we those like me who have worked without cannot clean our houses, filth accumulates, them. It cannot be described in words. It is boils and various skIn diseases develop on not necessary to speak at length on the our bodies and we fall sick. For want of problems of shortage of water. India ;s a water, tanks, rivulets and eVGn rivers dry up country of many rivers and rivulets. Ponds in some places. About tubewells Sir, I do not and tlnks exist all over the country and we know about the condnion in other places but have a very 10 rig coastline with the sea in the are~ where I corne from most of the washing tho shortages. But I regret that tubewells do not work. After working for a insplte of all thiS we are facing dri.,king water few days only, most of them go out of orders. shortes all over the country. Therefore, as I A~ a result. vary little water is available have c;aid many times ear:ier, f repeat that during normal times but atthe time of drought WI! shall have to frame a national water not a drop of water s available. In my con- policy to solve thIS problem. I request the stituency, Sir. there are 4Some places which HonObia Ministel to constder this seriously have bean called 'Non tubewell areas'. In and to take atl steps to formulate a nationaJ ·Translation of the speech originally delivered in Bengali. 179 Disc~ on Shotta{1lJ MAY 12,1989 01 Drinking Wate( 180

[Dr. Phulrenu Guha] Wasim. All the small cities and villages under these districts are facing scarcity of water water policy at the earliest. Unless and until and there will be critical situation in next that is done this problem of shortage of wa1er three months. Therefore, I urge the Govern­ will come before the country off and on and ment that something should be done on the people will suffer. With that Sir, I con­ warfooting. I may say that the hone Minister clude. Thank you. has visited Nagpur four times and I had made a request three months ago that in SHAt BANWARt LAL PUROHIT summer season the problem of drinking water (Nagpur): Hon. Chairman, Sir, very impor­ would become more critical in our area. 'The tant subject is being discussed at present in same situation is prevailing now. The this House. In fact, problem of drinking water schemes submitted by the State Govern­ ;s causing worry throughout the country. ment have not been completed so far and Scarcity of water is being felt every where in there may be some bottlenecks. Sometime a the villages as well as cities. I want to draw mention is made about world bank and at your attention that a slogan of food, clothing some other time some other reason is given. and housing was raised in our country after Therefore, I urge that a telex should be independence. There is no doubt that food, issued today to the Chief Secretary and the clothing and housing are necessities but Urban Secretary of Maharashtra Govern­ pure drinking water and dean air are greater ment to report immediately and ask them to necessities. Less attention was paid to this start work on warfooting to make arrange­ problem otherwise the present situation ments for supply of water to the aforesaid would not have developed which we are area. facing. Inspite of t:;onstant efforts made by the Government, drinking water in required Hon. Chairman. Sir, it was proposed to quantity has not been made available. supply water through tankers from distant places to the areas where water was not Increase of population is the main rea­ available. But this promise has also not been son for this problem in cities. No appareni kept by us and the supply of water has still result of the efforts made by the Government not commenced. In this connection, I urge is visible in the cities owing to incre I ~ing that the Chief Secretary and the Chief Minis­

population. Population of Nagpur city I my ter should be asked to explain the reasons own constituency, which is situated in the as to why the work has not been done so far. centre of India, was 4 lakh 40 years ago, it If they lack funds, kindly provide them funds, has increased to 20 lakhs now and every from the centre because it IS a serious prob­ thing has gone ~stray. Water is not being lem. made available to the people. Our Finance

Minister visited Maharashtra recently I he Mr. Chairman, Sir, the Government was to attend some programme, people cam provided 50 percent of funds for the installa­ to know that the Minister would pass through tion of tubewells in the remote areas and their area. The ladies surrounded the Mlnis­ villages for meeting thair requirement of ter'scar hokling empty pitchers in their hands water. But these tubewells large nat work­ and Minister was shown black flags. This ing. These tubewells had been Installed at a incident :ndicates the severity of the prab­ very low cost. The resources meant for this iem. You can assess the seriousness of the purpose have not been properly utilised. The problem. contractors did not drill the earth to the required depth. The engineers too who were Mr. Chairman, Sir, nine dist;icts of my entrusted with the work of quality checking of area are most affected with the problem of the drilling did not do it properly and sanc­

drinking water. These districts are Nagpur I tioned the bills of the contractros. That is why Akola, Yavatmal, Buldana. Amr3vati, that today (hese tubewaUs are not working. I Garhchirolli, Chandrapurs, Bhandara and WOUld, therefore, requestthe Governmentto 181 Disc. on Shortage VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA) of Drinking Water 182 blacklist the contractors who did not do the SHRI AZtZ QURESHI (Satna): tAr. work properly even after getting the full Chairman, Sir I we are holding a discussion amount paid to them and also to take action on the shortage of water. Due to this short­ against the engineers who did not carry out age of water and supply of dirty water where the test check properly. The matter may it is being supplied, people will faU ill and die. please be enquired into and the defaulters The hon. Minister of Urban Development is should be puniJhed. I would go to the extent present here. I would like to draw here attan .. of asking you to conduct an enquiry in re­ tion to this problem. The water being sup. spect of the tubewells installed during the plied by the N.D.M.e. to general public as last 5 years and take strict action against the well as to M. Ps will cause people faft ill and defaulting contractors and engineers. die. Yesterday when I opened the tap at my resident at 31, canning lane, I found that in Secondly, I would like to know as to place of water mud was coming through the, wh~t has happened to the Garland project tap. There was not a single drop of clean proposed by Shri Rao Saheb. We have not water. Due to this we were not able to take been able to implement the said project. We bath, prepare our food or clean the utensils. have been spending in crores of rupees on If this deplorable condition i~ there with the relief works for the last 25 to 30 years. If we M.Ps, it cannot be imagined what difficulties calculate the total amount spent hitherto on the common men in Dplhi would have been this account, it will be a very huge amount facing. May I ask the Government if they because all these years, we have been have no control over the N.D.M.e. Does not providing funds to the areas that come under the N.D.M.e. fall WIthin their jurisdiction? drought. Had we spent all this amount In Has the SItuation In N.D.M.e. gone out of lumpsum a little earlier, the problem could their control? The Government should pay have been solved with the expenditure of attention 10 It. If the Government is not in a much less an amount and the problem would position to pay attention to it, the Members of not have become so acute now. a, therefore, Parliament would themselves think about calls for serious afforest on our part. It needs the measure to put the functioning of to be consIdered seriously and you will have N.D.M.e. in order. to launch a major scheme at the natIonal level to meet the requirement of Irrigation Just now It was stated that the ground and drinking water. There is no other way out water level all overthe world has gone down. for this. If you make an assessment of t"e situation prevaIling in the world, you Will come to know Mr. Chairman. Sir, I would like to cite an that the level of underground water IS going Instance. In the U.S A. once a situation had down throughout the world. arisen when the water level of certain lakes such as Superior, Michigan, Elri and Ontono Just now, the pOInt of tubewells was Lakes. which were naVigable earlier, had raised here. Our able hon. Minister. Shri gone down by six Inches. Though tho U.S.A. PooJary is present here. He has very skillfully was not in a position to bear the expenses of organised loan melas In the country. I would construction of an ambItiouS dam, It con­ like to request him to dIsplay his capability in structed the dam and tried to maintain the thiS field dlso. Let him conduct a survey and water level of these lakes. Then why cannot assess how much groundwater IS available we do that? So far as the question of re­ there in our country. Drilling for tubeweHs sources or funds is concerned, the Govern­ should bf:l undertaken only after a survey has ment can take money from the public. The been conducted in this regard as crores of people In this country are prepared to give rupees have been spent up on'the instaUa­ for it. Every citizen of India will give money for tlon of tubewells, but 50 percent of them are this purpose. I would like to request the lying out of order. The reason is that tubew .. Government to do something or the othel in clfs were Instaffed WIthout assessing the this regard. quantum of underground watqr avaUabfe. 183 Disc. on Shortage MAY 12.1989 of Drinking Water 184

[Sh. Aliz Oureshi] Mr. Chairman, Sir. there is no time. But I would tell you how the planning has gone B9sides. water got through the tubewetls is wrong. Afterthe demise of Jawaharlal Nehru not drinkable. I would like to say that action we should have re-allotted priorities on the should be taken against all of them who are close'of Third Plan which we did not do and responsible for this, no matter if he is a in my opinion Jawaharlal Nehru was right. Government officer or a political leader. Let He had lived longer, he would have reviewed them be made accountable as to why crores the whole structure and re-allotted priorities of public money were wasted. Such a situ· for the future plans. We have gone wrong, ation should not be allowed to repeat in this we have done a patchy development, a lot of country. credit goes to the Government, whosoever was there, as we have achieved a lot in I would like to make a submission about various fields, but when we wee the list of my constituency, Satna. 11 is a very poor and priorities, it is a national shame that after 41 backward area where there is no industry in years of Independence we are just discuss­ the public sAetor. There are the factories of ing how to provide drinking water in the rural Tatas and Sirlas only. In the last meeting of areas or even in some urban areas to solve the Planning Commission as well as in the this problem. The basic needs are food, meeting held on the 20 point programme, I clothing, shelter, health care, education and had got a decision taken that the water being drinking water. Even energy comes after supplied to Sirla Group of factories in Satna drinking water. So, something has gone should now be supplied to the general pub· wrong. We wanted to achieve everything tic. The factories of the Birla Group of Indus­ possible under the sun and therefore, a lut of tries can meet their water requirement by money had been wasted. I had a chance to having their own separate tubewells. But it IS goto the Natio:1allnstitute of Rural Develop­ unfortunate that uptil now no action hus been ment, Hyderabad, and I understood the taken in this regard. Water is all along being dimensions of wastage of our water re­ supplied to 8irla Group of Industries and the sources. There is no time to explain that. So, people have b~en facing hardships. I would I must, Mr. Chairman, straightaway come to like to say that the Government should pa~ my constituency which is Baramullaconsist­ attantion to it and lay down a policy under ing of two districts, Baramulla and Kupwara, which all the big industries in the privat@ and I want to inform this august House that sector having a large capital investment and 65 percent of the people in these districts resources would not be supplied water and Baramulla and KupvJara-have no drinking they would be asked to make their own water, pure water, which you call'safe water' arrangements for water. The entire water will not because of the negligence of the State be supplied to the general public so that Government, but because of paucity of funds, people could get some relief and may tide appe::.tl to the Central Government through OVdr the problem of water crisis. you, Si~, that a special scheme should be aevised for my constituency because there Similarly, a scheme to supply water to are dry areas where 65 percent population Bhopal from river Narmada is also Iy!ng has no drinking water. And there is another pending since long. I would like to urge upon justificatIon because the Government of the Government to pay attention to it and Jammu and Kashmir orthe people of Jammu provide water to Bhopal, the capital city of and Kashmir have not received adequate Madhya Pradesh. I would like to express my share from the funding so far as your entire t~anks to you for allowing me the time to public sector is concerned. We have 0.07 speak. percent. SO,'we deserve a better deal.

[English) Secondly t I want an All India survey for the whole country. There should be an all PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ (Baramulia): Inrjia slJrv'jY to determine, to ind~te the 185 Diso. on ~ VAISAKHA 22, 1911 (SAKA) of DrIttIdng W.,., i .. staWs of various $tates so far as drinking are faced with this problem every yeardUring water Is concerned. It is not that there is summer. But this year, the drinking water imbalance. That i. atthe national leveL Some problem has become very acute in 008.,1 States have got more funds because some districts of the State too. The Government of men and woman came to Parliament and Orissa has made various arrangements to became Ministers from the these areas and provide adequate drinking water in the vII· they have been selfish, nursing their own lages. We have tube welts, shallow wells. and constkuencies. deep welfs e1c. in our state. Besides, there are certain areas where people depend on MR. CHAIRMAN: Your constituency is river water. Despite all these facil~i8s we are also a part of India. facing acute drinking water problem this year. There are v;Jr;ous factors rssponsible ( Interruptions) for the acute shortage o{ drinking water in Orissa during the year. Th4 first reason is PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ: Sir, imbal­ that we have no rain in the state since last 8 ance is there. But within a State there are months. Prior to that there was scanty rain~ areas where there is no drinking water, in fall in some areas only. The ponds, The urban area~ people have been served bet­ ponds, rivulets well s etc. are dried up. In ter. Somebody was pleading for urban ar­ many areas the watsr level has gone down. eas, I must say our rural population is suffer­ The wells which were dug long ago are not ing because of pollution' and all kinds of being maintained by the people. Deep wells things. Now, Sir, on the basis of an All India were dug by the Government in different survey, kindly consult experts. I do not know vHlages during the second and third plan whether the Ministry is taking note of what is period. Now, the State Government is not happening in this country, how we are defi­ taking any stepto renovate those wells; Most cient in water resources, how water is being of those wells are filled with silts. Similar is wasted. On the basis of that All India survey. the condition of the village ponds. The Govt. I request the Government of India to issue a had indemnified problem villages in each White Paper on this problem and explain to state including Orissa. All the problem vil­ the country as to what the Government will lages have not been supplied with potable be doing within a decade. Thank you. drinking water so far. TubeweUs were in­ ~talled in many villages during 6th and 7th [ Trans/ation] Plan pertod under centrally sponsored schemes. Proper care was not taken to ·SHRI HARIHAR SOREN (Keonjhar): deepen the soil while installing tubewalls. As Mr. Chairman, Sir, we are dIscussing the a result of that water is not coming through drinking water problem. It is really a matter of those tubewells even in pre-summer. great concern that many parts to India are faced with severe scarcity of drinking water. Sir. the situation is worse in my constitu­ Many Hon'ble Members have pOinted out ency. I come from Keonjhar district of Orissa. about the drinking water problems in differ­ It is a mineral rich hilly district. nis necessary ent parts of the country. As time at my to make the soil very deep and then the disposalls very short, I wculd not like to go tubewells should be installed. Because the In detail. I do not wish to say about all over water level is somewhere at 40 ft. to 50 ft. or India. I would like to confine my speech on even more than that below the surface. Most drinking water problem in Orissa. of the tubewells installed in that district are not functioning. The drinking water is coming Sir. the drinking water scarcity has posed through some tubeweUs and as a r•• uk of a serious problem in 9rissa. Almost every that it is not fit for human consumption. part of Orissa is faced wjth this problem. The Therefor. the people are depending on other hilly areas of the State like Keonjhar, Phul· sources for drinking water. The Government bani, Kal ah and 1, Balangir and Sundargarh have made certain criteria for Inlt,IUng tu· *Tranalation of the speech originally delivered in Ortya. 187 Disc. on Shottage MAV 12.1989 of Drinking Water 188

[Sh. Harlhar Sore"] ments to repair the tubewells and shallow wells which are defunct. , request to the bewells. One tubewell is to be installed In Government to provide adequate fund to the Ivery revenue village where the population State Governments so that they witt be able is between 250 to 300. Sir, in my district the to ensure potable drinking water supply to situation is different. An the villages are not everybody. With these words I conclude my thickly populated. The population is not even speech. 250 to 300 in some villages. As it is a hilly district the people are scattered hera and SHRI KEYUR SHUSHAN: Mr. Chair­ ther •. The distance between one village to man, ~ir, without giving an expression to the another is somewhere 2 to 3 Kms. In such feeling of concern of the entire country. I cases one tubewell does not cater to the would like to express my own concern here need of 2 to 3 villages. Moreover the people before the hon. Minister Shri Poojary who is have to walk 2 to 3 Kms to fetch a bucket of a responsive person. I am fully confident that water. So the criteria should be relaxed. One he will fully release my agony, and take tube well should be installed in every reve­ suitable measures to ameliorate it. Though nue village. One tube well should be in­ there has been rainfall all over the country stalled in every ward or BastL Then only we this year, the Raipur division of Madhya will be able to provide drinking water to every Pradesh, which I represent here, has unfor­ people. There are many villages in my dis­ tunately been experiencing the worst ever trict which are located in inaccessible areas. famine of the century this year. In the entire We have not been able to instal tube wells in division, there was drought throughout the those villages. They do not have wells So, year. Some people have migrated from the they depend on spring water for drin~ing area. Even today, the situation is very critical purpose. The spring water is not hygenic as thera. Of course, drought relief workds have it is very much polluted these days. The been launched on a large scale in the area, people who consume spring water suffer but the drinking water crisis is very acute from different water-borne diseases. The there. Our han. Prime Minister had visited tribals are mostly the victims of the water that area where the people apprised him of born diseases. Therefore it is very neces­ their deep concern for water. They explained sary to ensure potable drinking water in that with the launching of drought relief work those villages. It is very necessary to install their problem of earning livelihood has been tube wells in those villages on priority. There solved, but the pOSition of dril'lking water is are many villages whe're the people from all very grim. Our hon. Chief Minister Minister thecommunnies live. Both upper cast people, has also made a request to sanction Rs. 45 Harijan and Adivasies live in the same vil­ crores for this purpose. The amount will be lage. Suppose a tubewell has been installed spent not only in Aaipur but also on the in a ward where upper caste people live, but adjoining districts where the problem of drink­ it is not installed in the area where Harijan or ing water has assumed such dimensions Adlvasis are living, in such cases the people that it needs attention. I, therefore, request do not get drinking water agitate over the the Government to pay attention to it. Water issue .. So ~ is necessary to install tube wells available in the dam in that area is being in all the basties, where Harijan Adivasis or supplied to RaiplAr which is expanding very upper caste whosoever live there. rapidly. Its population has now touched the mark of 10 lakhs. The water from the local Sir, if the present dry spell continues dam is supposed to meet the requirement of and there is no rainfall till June, the pepple this vast city as well as one of the largest will not be able to tolerate the summer. If steel factories of India at Bhilai. We demand proper arrangement is not made to provide a sum of Rs. 22 crores to meat the water drinking water to every village they will die requirement of Ralpur city. I also request you Ilk. tnsects. Therefore, I urge upon the to ask the Ministry of Steel and also convey Government to make immediate arrange- our request to them that they should make 189 DIsc. on Sholtag. VAtSAKHA 22,1911 (SAKA) of Drinking War 110

their own separate arrangemants whether (English) constructing a separate dam for it or in some MR.CHAIRMAN: The House stands other ways to meat the water requirements adjourned to re-assemble on Monday, the of the ste.' city. I would also like to request 15th, May 1989 at 11.00 a.m. you to arrange rig machines and send them to my area and also give money for the 19.00 hr•• purpose so that water could be made avail· The Lok Sabha then adjoumed till Eleven able tor the cattle dying for want of ~ater in of the Clock on Monday, May 15, 1989/ that area and save them. Valsakha 25, 1911 {Sakal.

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