Lok Sabha Debates

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[Eighth Series, Volums XL V, Twelfth Session, 198811910 (Saka) 1

No. 22, Wednesday, December 14, 1988JAgrahayana 23, 1910 (Saka)

COLUMNS

Papersl,Laid on the Table 5-6

Railway Convention Committe- 6 TweHth Report - Presented

Railways Bill- 6-7

ixtension of time for presentation of Report I df Joint Committee

'lUsiness Advisory Committee- 7-9 Slxty·fourth Report - Adopted

~.Aatters Under Rule 377- 9-19

(I) Demand for establishment of a subsidiary coal 9-10 company under Coal India Limited in the coal belt of Orissa-

Shri Sriballav Panigrahi

(ii) Demand for enquiry into hike in prices of certain 10-11 imported drugs whose landed cost IS much low

Shri Raj Kumar Rai

(iii) Demand for restoration of quota of berths from 11 Nagpur in various trains and restoration of capacity of bogies in trains running from Delhi to South India and Vice-versa.-

Shri Banwari Lal Purohit

(iv) Demand for ensuring that the benefit of lower 11-12 interest rate on loans is passed on to the farmers as announced in the last budget-

Shr; Balasaheb Vikhe Patil

(v) Demand for ensuring that farmers get a minimum 12-13 of As. 1000/- as price for a quaintal of 'Narma Cotton'-

Shri Birbal (if)

COLUMNS (vi) Demand for over~al1 development of Banswara- 13-14 Ooongarpur region of Rajasthan-

Shri Prabhu Lal Rawat

(vii) Demand for financial assistance to cotton 16-17 growers of Guntur and Prakasam districts of Andhra Pradesh-

Shri B.N. Reddy

(viii) Demand for further amendment of the Wakf Act, 18-19 1954 and in the meantime, the universally accepted provisions of the 1983 Act inforced immediately-

Shri Syed Shahabuddin

Constitution (Sixty~Second Amendment) Bill 19-198 and Representation of the People (Amendment) Bill Motions to consider-

Shri B. Shankaranand 19-28

Shri C. Madhav Reddi 28-40

Shri V.N. Gadgil 40-51

Shri Somnath Chatterjee 52-68

Shri Veerendra Patil 68-17

Shri P. R. Oas Munsi 77-88

PiOf. Madhu Dandavate 88-109

Shri Mukul Wasnik 109-114

Shri Balkavi Bairagi 114-120

Shri Dinesh Goswami 120-132

Shri H.K. L Bhagat 132-144

Shri Sharad Oighe 144-149

Choudhary Khurshid Ahmed 149-153

Prof. P.J. Kurien 153-157 (iii)

COLUMNS Shri Surendra Pal Singh 157-162

Shri S~uddin Soz ' 162-166

Shri Pratap Bhanu Sharma 166-168

I, Shri Somnath Rath 169-171

Shri G.M. BanatwaUa 172-176

Shri Jagannath Choudhary 176-179

Shri Virdhi Chander Jain 179-181

Dr. A.K. Patel 181-183

Shrimati Patel Ramaben Ramjibhai Mavani 183-185

Kumari Mamata Banerjee 185-190

Shri N.V.N. Somu 190-194

Dr. G.S. Rajhans 194-198 LOK SABHA DEBATES

LOKSABHA (Intenuptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing doing. Gov- Wednesday, Dscsmber 14, 1988/Agrahay- ernment is not competent to comment upon ana 23, 1910 (Saka) the !=lCtions of the Election Commission.

( Interruptions) The Lok Sabha met at Eleven of the Clock MR. SPEAKER: Never before have I [MR. SPEAKER in the Chait1 done it nor will I do it now. Until and uf\less you change the Constitution and bring the [English1 Election Commission under your purview we cannot comment upon its actions. SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA (Bankura): Sir, the Election Commission has an":. ( Interruptions) nounced the date of elections to three State Assemblies but... (Interruptior.s) MR. SPEAKER: Nothing doing.

MA. SPEAKER: Nothing doing. Irrele- { Interruptions) vant. Nothing goes on record. MR. SPEAKER: Nothing doing. Not (Interruptions) * allowed,

MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Acharia. you know (Interruptions) * that I cannot comment upon the actions and decisions of the Election Commission which [ Translat~] is an autonomous body. Nor can they do it. You have to change the Constitution. I can- SHR~ CKlRANJI tAt. SHARMA (Kar- not allow. Nothing goes on record. nal);. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in Haryana, Congress wo~ "'~heateo. ~y Whfs.... ( Inte"uptionst [E"g1i;~ MR. SPEAKER: Again the samething. f cannot break the rules. Nothing goes on MR: SP~KEA: fdo not"know. record. SHRI BASUOEB ACHARIA: let the GOVE'rnment clarify. (Interruptions) * MR. SPEAKER: Government cannot PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE (Ra- comment upon that. Government has no japur): Sir. will you allow us to seek a authority to CO'I'nrtlent upon that. fhat is what .j~, clarification on what you have said? my understanding, . . 3 DECEMBER 14, 1988 4

( Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Why Government? • is the Election Commission .•• PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Sir, I am not raising the question of Election (Interruptions) • Commission. I want to know about the. MR. SPEAKER: Not allowed. I have not MR. SPEAKER: I do not know. I cannot allowed anybody. allow that. That is an aspersIOn on the EIec· tlon Commission. ( Interruptions)-

( Interrupt!ons) [ Translation]

MR. SPEAKER: I am on firm ground. SHRI DHARAM PAL SINGH MALIK Under no conditions. Untl' and unless you (Sonepat): Atrocities are being committed change the Statute, I am not going to allow on poor. They are being lathicharged and put this against the Election Commission. No, I behind bars. The honour of women is not am not going to allow. safe there. (Interruptions)

( Interruptionst [English]

[ Translation] MR. SPEAKER: I have already given my ruling on this subject. I am not concerned SHRI DHARAM PAL SINGH MALIK what is the reaction of the Government on (Sonepat): Mr. Speaker, Sir, in Haryana, this, or what is your readion. I can only say poor people are being beaten up by lathls that unless and until you change the Statute, The Government there has given three dif- I Will not bring under discussion the judge- ferent statements within three days. A case ment or the orders of Election Commission. under section 354 was registered, buL. Nothing doing. No. (Interruptions) (Interruptions)- [English] MR. SPEAKER: Tomorrow, you will MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Achana why are hang this thing around my neck. I am not you trying to make me break the rules? I am going to get myseH hanged. nor-going to break those rules. (lnterruptions)- (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: I do not know about it. SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA: What is Why should I know? It is the Election the reaction of the Government? Commission. Govemment has nothing to do with it. MR. SPEAKER: I am not concerned with that. I am only concerned with this that (Interruptions) • the Election Commission is an autonomous body and its decisions cannot be discussed KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE here. (Jadavpur): A Harijan girl is involved. The House should take cognisance of this. The PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: listen Home Minister should make a statement. 10 us. Sir, we are not raising the question of EJection Commission. We want to know the MR. SPEAKER: • do not know .• cannot attitude anckespons& of th&Governmel\l interfere•••

-Not recorded. 5 Papers Laid AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Railways Bill 6

(Interruptions)· tiles Export Promotion Council. Bombay, for the year 1987-88. MR. SPEAKER: Ask the Election [Placed in Ubrary, See No. 70671 Commission. Why are you asking the wrong 88] person? Go to the Efection Commission and ask them, and not me here. Notification Under Indian Railways Act

( Interruptions)· SHRI MAHABIR PRASAD: I beg to lay on the Table a copy of the Notification No. S.O. 3325 (Hindi and Engli~ versions) 11.06 hrs. published in Gazette of India ,tated the 5th November. 1988 maki~ further amend- PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE ment to Notification No. TCIII/3036/581N0ti- fication, dated the 28th August. 1958 regard- [Eng/ish] ing Uability of Railways for loss of luggage from Cloak Room, issued under section 47 Annual Report of Indian Institute of of the Indian Railways Act, 1890. [Placed in Astrophysics, Bangalore, for 1987-88 Library. See No. LT -7068/881

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE 11.07 hrs. MINISTRY OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOL- OGY AND MINISTER OF STATE IN THE RAILWAY CONVENTION COMMITTEE DEPARTMENTS OF OCEAN DEVELOP- MENT, ATOMIC ENERGY, ELECTRON- [Eng/ish] ICS AND SPACES (SHRI K.R. NARAY- ANAN): I beg to lay on the Table a copy of TweUth Report the Annual Report (Hindi and English versions) of the 1987-88 along with Audited PROF NARAIN CHAND PARASHAR Accounts. [Placed in Library. See No. LT- (Hamirpur): I beg to present the Twelfth 7066/88] Report (English and Hindi versions) of the Railway Convention Committee on Action Annual Report and Review on the Taken by Government on the recommenda- Working of Synthetic and Rayon tions contained in their Ninth Report (Eighth Text,i1es Export Promotion Council, Lok Sabha) on 'On-going Railway Line Proj- Bombay for 1987-88 ects',

THE QEPUTY MINISTER IN THE 11.07 F(1,2) hrs. MINISTRY OF RAILWAYS (SHRI MA- HABIR PRASAD): On behaH of Shri Rafique RAILWAYS BILL Alam, I beg to lay on the Table:- Extension of time for Presentation of (1) (i) A copy of the Annual Report Report of Joint Committ.. (Hindi and English versions) of the Synthetic and Rayon Tex- SHRI R.S. SPARROW (JuRunder): tiles Export Promotion Council, beg to move the following: Boml?ay. for the year 1987-88 along with Audited Accounts. "That this House do further extel1d upto the first day of the Budget Session, (it) A copy of \tle Review (Hindi 1989. the time for presentation of the and English versions) by the report of the Joint Committee on the Bill Government on the working of to consolidate and amend the law relat- the SYf!!!!!ic and Rayon Tex- ing to Railways.· 7 B.AC. Report DECEMBER 14, 1988 B.AC. Report 8

MR. SPEAKER: The question is: any rules.

-That this House do further extend upto [ Translation] the first day of the Budget Session, 1989, the time for presentation of the I have told them. Same is yours. report of the Joint Committee o'n the Bill to consolidate and amend the law relat- [English] ing to Railways.· You can point out any rule to me. The motion was adopted (Interruptions)· 11.08 hrs. MR. SPEAKER: Tell me, under what BUSINESS ADVISORY COMMITTEE rule?

Sixty.. Fourth Report ( Interruptions)

[English] MR. SPEAKER; Mr. Achar;a, I am not going to break any rule. I am not going to put THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE any noose around my neck. No; I am not MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AF- going to do it. Go to the Election Commis- FAIRS AND MINISTER OF STATE IN THE sion. No question on this subject. PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE (SHRIMATI SHIELA DIKSHIT): I beg to move: ( Interruptions)*

"That this House do agree with the MR. SPEAKER: Go to the Election Sixty-fourth Report of the Business Commission. Write to them. Advisory Committee presented to the House on the 13th December, 1988.. ( Interruptions)*

MR. SPEAKER: The question is: MR. SPEAKER: This gentleman is not allowed. Not a single word of what he says, "That this House do agree with the without my permission, goes on record. Sixty-fourth Report of· the Business Advisory Committee presented to the ( Interruptions)· House on the 13th December, 1988.. MR. SPEAKER: No. Go to the Eledion The motion was adopted Commission. Don't shout; go to the Election Commission. Don't waste my time. (Interruptions) * [ Translation] [English) SHRI DHARAM PAL SINGH MALIK MR. SPEAKER: Now Matters under (Sonepat): A harijan lady was raped ... (Inter· Rule 3n. Mr. Sriballav Panigrahi. ruptions)

(Interruptions) * [English]

MR. SPEAKER: The Government. the MR. SPEAKER: I have told him. I have Home Ministry can take care of it, if it feels fit. told him the same thing which I told you. I am I cannot inteefere. NQ; I cannoL Tell me the not going to break the rules-neither for ru1es under which I can interfera. Refer to tham, nor for you .•. Not at all. *Not recorded. 9 Matters under AGRAHAYANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Rule377 10

(Interruptions) * ent production level of about 12 million ton- nes will double during the Eighth Five Year MR. SPEAKER: Not allowed. Plan according to the Production Pro- gramme finalised by the Coal India Ltd. This MR. 'SPEAKER: Now matters under accounts to about 25 per cent annual growth Rule 377. Shri Sriballav Panigrahi. rate in coming years which is quite a chat. lenging job and cannot be achieved unless (Interruptions) • work is carried out in right earnest with proper coordination and effective monitor- MR. SPEAKER: Only statements un- ing. For all this together with safeguarding der Rule 377 will go on record. the interests of the local people in the matter of employment, business and overall devel- (Interruptions) * opment of the area, which is required is, the establishment of a subsidiary coal company 11.10 hrs. under the Coal India limited in the coal belt of Orissa without further delay. MATTERS UNDER RULE 377 (ii) Demand for enquiring into hike [English] in prices of certain imported drugs Whose landed cost is (i) Demand for establishment of a much low Subsidiary Coal Company Un- der the Coal 'India Ltd., in the SHRI RAJ KVMAR RAt (Ghosi): 11!e coal belt of Orissa Kelkar Committee recommended that drugs having sales turn over of more than Rs. 50 SHRI SRIBALlAV PANIGRAHI (Oeog- lakhs be brought under price control pro- arh): The problems of the land oustees vided they do not fuHiI any other exclusion whose land is being acquired for expansion criteria. However, some drugs whose of coal fields in Orissa need to be considered landed cost of import is between Rs. 57 sympathetically and urgently. Besides pay- lakhs to Rs. 2141akhs are monopoly prod- ment of compensation at the highest pos- ucts and their prices have recorded 50 per sible rates, they should be provided with cent increase in one year. The reasons for suitable reseffiement facilities and jobs on exclusion of these drugs from price control liberal basis preferably in the projects of their are not known. I request that in the interest of choice. the public, a full fledged enquiry should be held in the matter. Further, it is an irony that Orissa which is quit. rich in mineral resources continues ( Interruptions) to be economically backward. It has huge coal reserves. But due attention is not being MR. SPEAKER: Only Statement under given to its proper exploitation. In fact it is the Rule 377 goes on record. only major coal producing State in the coun- . try today without a subsidiary coal company ( Interruptions) functioning there. Both the coal areas i.e. Talcher and Ib Valley in Orissa are managed and controHed by the South Eastern Co- MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Chatterjee. I must alfield Umited from its headquarters at warn you. You can approach the Election Bilaspur in Madhya Pradesh. h is not pos- Commission and that is the only way-out. I sble to properly look after these two areas am not going to allow it here. froM 8i1aspur due to logistic factors like distance and communication etc. The pres- ( Interruptions)

eNot recorded. 11 Matters under DECEMBER 14. 1988 Ru1e377 12

MR. SPEAKER: Ttae G~ernment is (Kopargaon): In the Budget for 1988-89, not concemed here. It is the Election Government announced reduction in inter- Commission. My deci.,n is always accord- est rate on loans taken by the farmers as per ing to the rules. norms declared in the Budget. Unfortu- nately, the District Central Cooperative ( InterttJptjons) Banks and the Village Cooperative Credit Societies are not implementing the lower MR. SPEA~: Do not cast asper- interest rate. They are charging the same sions. Change the statute if you do not like it. rate of Interest from the farmers. Their fear You are the masters. is, as to who Will bear the loss due to lower anterest rate because the Village Credit ( Interroptions) Cooperative Societies are financially very weak. The District Central Cooperative (iii) Demand for restoration of quota Banks recover furl interest from the Village of berths from Nagpur In various Cooperative Societies in lump sum against trains and restoration of capac- the total loan disbursed. Similarly the State Ity of bogies In trains running Cooperative Banks recover the interest from from Delhi to South India and the District Central Cooperative Banks as vice-versa per interest rate prescribed by National Bank for Agricuhure and Rural Development. In SHRI BANWARI LAl PUROHIT reahty, farmers do not get the benefit of lower (Nagpur): I would like to draw the attention interest because nobody is ready to bear the of the House to the drastic cut in quota of loss. So, , request Ministry of Finance that berths from Nagpur in important trains. the matter may be looked into seriously There are'three important trains from Oethi without affecting the Village Cooperative to South and vice-v9rsa via Nagpur. The Societies' economic viability and the farmers number of bogies which used to be attached should be benefited as per the announce- to these important trains was 23 which have ment in the Budget. been reduced to 16 resulting in inconven- ience to the residents of Nagpur. A.P. Ex- [ Translation] press from Delhi to South via Nagpur used to have a quota of 70 2nd class sleeper berths (v) Demand for eneurlng that fann- from Nagpur. This has been reduced to 20. er. get a minimum of Rs. 1,000 The commuters of Nagpur are facing hard- .s price for • quintal of •... 'm. ships. Similarly it has been reduced in the Cotton' case of other two important trains without any intimation or notice. The confirmed res- SHRI BIRBAL (Ganganagar): Mr. ervation. have been abruptly disturbed. Speaker, Sir. the price of 'Narma Cotton' has come down from Rs. 1000 a quintal last year I urge the Railway Ministry to restore the to As. 650 to As. 700 a quintal now. Farmers ful capacity of bogies in the trains from Delhi have put hard labour and invested a pretty to South and vice-versa for convenience of good amount lYf way of quality seeds and general public and orders be given to restore costly pesticides and fertilisers to produce the quota of Nagpur Railway Station. cotton, yet they are not being provided remunerative price of 'beir produce. In mar.. (Iv) Demand for ensuring that the ket, 'Harma Cotton' J. fetching very low benefit of a lower Inter.. t rate on price. It will adversely affect the economic loans is passed on to the farm- condition of farmers, Hthe Govemmentdoes • • '!oIo er. a. announced In the last not pay attentIon to it... Budget I would, therefore, like to request the SHA. BALASAHEB VIKHE PATll hone Minister of textile. to fix the market price 13 Maners und8f AGRAHAYANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) RtJle377 14 of Harma Cotton at As. 1000 a quintal, so schemes should be completed. Telecom- that farmers could get remunerative price of munication facilities are not adequate in their produce C.C.1. should be instructed to Banswara and Doongarpur. There is a need purchase cotton from the markets in the to provide S.T.D. facility in those districts cotton growing areas. As farmers are the immediately. backbone of the country, it is the responsibility of the Government to watch tneir inter- Banswara and Doongarpur should be ests. linked with Vayudoot services.

(vi) Demand for overall develop- [English] ment of Banswara-Doongarpur region of Rajasthan PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE (Ra- japur): I am on a point of order. SHRI PRABHU LAL RAWAT (Ban- swara) = Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are thankful MR. SPEAKER: No point of order. that a number of schemes have been formu- lated for development of tribal dominated PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: I have areas. But they are not being implemented given notice of a motion ... properly. MR. SPEAKER: I will see. You have There is awte unemployment problem just given me. I will look into it. in Banswara, Doongarpur and its neighbouring districts. Industrialists are reluctant to set PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: What is up industries there due to inadequate rail your ruling on m~ motion? facilities and that is why pace of industrial development in above areas is very klw. MR. SPEAKER: If it is workable I will There are metre gauge railway lines in see to it Doongarpur and Udaipur distrids. There is a need to provide special facilities to the indus- PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: I have trialists who are willing to set up-industries in given notice under rule 184 demanding that tribal dominated areas and the Government the Government should make a statement should also set up industries of their own. about the pending by-elections to the Lok Sabha Mahi Bajaj Sagar dam is a large and well-built dam, but there is shortage of funds MR. SPEAKER: It is for the Election for expansion of canals and providing lift Commission again. irrigation facility.

SHRI S.M. GURADDI (Bijapur): I am From Mahi Bajaj Sagar project, water not discussing about the Election Commis- can be provided to thirsty lands of Doongar- sion. My question is quite different. Agricul- pur, Banswara, Udaipur and Chittor as a turists are badly hit by NABARD's decision.•• result of which economic condition of common man of the areas may improve. Even MR SPEAKER: You give me a notice. 20% of the funds allotted for the irrigations projects in Udaipur division to increase the SHRI S.M. GURADDI: I have already production are not spent on providing irriga- given. You are not looking here. You always tion facilities as a large chunk of it is spent on look to the front benches. What can I do? salaty of the employees and on other things. (Interruptions) In order to provide facilities to common man, the Budget provisions on Irrigation Projects MR. SPEAKER: You can walkout of tne are required to be increased. long standing House: you can withdraw. 15 Matters under DECEMBER 14. 1988 flul.377 16

SHRI S.M. GURADDI: Why? It affects do it. Hthey have the authority to announce the farming community. elections in three States. they could have announced by-elections also. Nobody could MR. SPEAKER: I will ask the han. have stopped them. Whatever the recom- Member to take his seat. mendations of the Government, the Election Commission have the authority. power and SHRI S.M. GURADDI: 1 have already judicious approach to do what they like. given notice .•. ( Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: It does not matter. There are 10,000 notices which come to me. MR. SPEAKER: I have given my ruling. That is all. (Interruptions) PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: What MR. SPEAKER: You withdraw from the about my motion? House. MR. SPEAKER: I have over-ruled it. SHRI S.M. GUFlADDI: Why should I? PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Under MR. SPEAKER: Because I ask you to. what rules have yo~ over-ruled it? You are not obeying the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: It is my discretion; it is ( Interruptions) my judgement.

MR. SPEAKER: You take your seat. PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: I want to be educated by you. PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: What is your rUling? MR. SPEAKER: No. not here.

MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Professor, the ( Interruptions) question is that the Election Commission is an independent and autonomous body to do MR. SPEAKER: I am not answerable. it or not to do it. Whatever they decide ... My ruling ;s the ruling simple and straight forward. I do not have to give any explana- ( Interruptions) tion. That is all. Shri B.N. Reddy. Only Shri B.N. Reddy goes on record and nobody else. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Guraddi. you please sit down; otherwise, I will have to (Interruptions) • name you. Behave yourseH. It is too much now. I have had enough. (viI) Demand for financial assistance to cotton growers of Guntur and Whatever comes under the purview of Prakasam district of Andhra the Election Commission, you can approach Prad.sh the EJection Commission. You can change the statute and bring 1t under your control SHRI B.N. REDDY (Miryalguda): because the Election Commission is not Alarming situation has again developed in accountable and answerable even to the Guntur and Prakasam districts of Anethr. Government. It is simple and straight for- Pradesh due to failure of cotton crop. Forthe ward. And if the Election Commission have second year in succession. the 'yellow fly' got any grudge against the Government, has completely damaged the crop. Even the _they can over-ride it They are competent to imported pesticide has not helped the cotto"

·Not recorded. 11 Matters under AGRAHAYANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Ru1s377 18 growers. The yield has been hardly two or have disallowed your motion... three quintals per acre instead of eight or nine quintals. Because of failure of the crop, ( Interruptions)* people, finding no means of living. have committed suicide in the districts of Guntur MR. SPEAKER: No running commen- and Prakasam. tary on it.

I, therefore, urge upon the Government ( Interruptions)* to remit the crop Joan granted to marginal cotton growers and reschedule the Iong- MR. SPEAKER: I do not have to give term loans. A subsidy should also be given to any reason. the cotton growers to continue their agricultural operations. Steps may also please be (Interruptions) * taken to rehabilitate the famUies of the de- ceased and the crop loans due in such cases MR. SPEAKER: I do not know. Ask the be written off. Election Commission.

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Syed Shahabud- ( Interruptions)* din. MR. SPEAKER: Ask the competent SHRI SYEO SHAHABUDDIN (Kishan- authority. ganj): Sir, the Wakf Act, 1954... (Interrup- tions) (Interruptions) •

MR. SPEAKER: I have explained eve- MR. SPEAKER: Government has noth- rything. Go to the Election Commission and ing to do with it., ask them, not here. ( Interruptions) ( Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: Ask the Election MR. SPEAKER: Finished, Not allowed. Commission, not me. Whatever they may shout, I do not allow... ( Interruptions) ( Interruptions) (viiI) Demand for further amendment MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Shahabuddin is of the Wakf Act, 1954 and In the going on record, nobody else. meantime, the universally accepted provisions of the 1983 ( Interruptions)- Act enforced Immediately

MR. SPEAKER: I have given' my ruling SHRI SYEO SHAHABUDOIN (Kishan- already. ganj): Sir, the Wakf Act, 1954 was last amended in 1983 but the amended Act has (Interruptions)· not yet come into force, except two provisions. Responsible Muslim organisations MR. SPEAKER: I have explained eve- and leaders had objected to some provi- rything and I have given my ruling ... sions of the Act and suggested further amendments. It was expected that these (Interruptions)· amendments shall be enacted soon. Now more than five years have lapsed, tho:Jgh MR~ SPEAKER: No, nothing doing. , the proposed amendments have been

·Not recorded. 19 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation of 20 Second Amdt.) Bill & People (Amdt.) Bill

[Sh. Syed Shahabuddin) "That the Bill further to amend the Representation of the People Act, 1950 screened and finalised by a high power and the Representation of the People committee. In the meantime, many benefi- Act, 1951, betaken into consideration .. cial provisions of the 1983 Act have remained unenforced to the general detriment As Han. Members are aware. the sub- of the Wakf properties. ject "Electoral Reforms" has been keenly debated both in the parliament and outside. The importance of the Wakf as an insti- We do have a well established electoral tl.l1ion and as an instrument for the social. system. Our election laws are supported by economic and educational development of statutory rules and orders covering all as- the Muslim community cannot be over- pects of the preparation and conduct of emphasised. The Governments, Central elections. We have been successfully hold- and States both, are well aware of the need ing elections since Independence. A review to protect the Wakf properties and to utilise of all these elections showed that the elec- them for the welfare of the communrty and toral process and the system have been progress of the country. under certain stresses and strains which, if allowed to remain unchecked, may under- It is, therefore, requested that the mine the very democratic process and the amendment B,II be introduced at the earliest system itself. and, in the meantime, those provisions of the 1983 Act which have been universally ac- India is one of the biggest stable democ- cepted be brought into force immediately, racies in the world. A large percentage of our without any further delay. population lives in rural areas. Thol.lgh the people are not highly educated, they are wise and mature. When it comes to the 11.25 hrs. question of exerc:sing the right to vote, the Indian voter, whether in an urban or a rural CONSTITUTION (SIXTY-SECOND area, is mature and politically aware. He is AMENDMENT) BILL conscious of his right to vote and also that this right is a precious one. There has, there- AND fore, been considerable international admi- ration for the way in which the democracy is REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE functioning in our country. (AMENDMENT) Bill However, as I said, our own review of [English] the past experience has emphasised the need f(')f improvement in the electoral proc- MR. SPEAKER: Now we shall take up ess. The Election Commission has formu- items 7 and 8 together. Shri B. Shankaran- lated several proposals for electoral re- and. forms. Tho Government has taken necessary steps all along to bring about improve- THE MINISTER OF LAW AND JUS- ments by rnaking new enactments for the TICE AND MINISTER OF WATER RE- purpose. In this connection, Members would SOURCES (SHRI B. SHANKARANANO): recall that in order to deal with the evil of Sir. I beg to move·: political defection, the Government under the dynamic leadership of Shri Rajiv Gandhi "That the Bill further to amend the took a bold step of amending the Constitution of India. be taken into Constitution by Fifty-Second (Amendment) consideration. It Act in 1985. Another significant step was 21 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Representation 22 SscoDd Amdt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill taken to legitimise the flow of funds from the Constitution that the elections to the House corporate sector to the political parties. The of the People and to the Legislative Assem- Companies (Amendment) Act, 1985 permit- blies shall be on the basis of adult suffrage. ted donations by companies to political par- They had also specified in the Article that the ties subject to certain conditions. The Bill to concept of adult suffrage would cover an the amend the election laws is yet another step citizens of India who a:-e not less than 21 to strengthen the entire election process for years of age. the purpci)se of ensuring free and fair elections and ultimately to strengthen the Parlia- The demand that voting rights should mentary Democracy in our country. be extended to persons in the age group of 18 to 21 years has been voiced not now but However, additional measures, some several years ago. In fact, the Joint Commit- far-reaching ones, were found to be neces- tee of both the Houses of Parliament during sary. Various proposals regarding electoral the regime of Indiraji considered proposals reforms were widely debated in the Press relating to amendments to election laws in and other fora. Several political parties, from 1972 and had urged that voting right should time to time, expressed their views and be granted to persons in the age group of 18 suggestions, both in the Parliament and to 21 years in order to give the younger outside. Government took note of all these generation an opportunity of participation in views and held consultations with the repre- the functioning of the Parliamentary democ- sentatives of the political parties. The Prime racy. The Committee had concluded that Minister on more than one occasion had there was no valid reason for denying the conveyed to the Parliament the serious rightofvotetothe age groupof 18t021 years concern of the Government regarding elec- particularly when for all purposes of law they toral reforms. If the matter was taking time, it treated as majors and deemed competent to was only because the subject was complex handle their affair~. The youth wings of the and complicated, and whatever was decided Congress Party have also been agitating for upon had to be examined thoroughly so that reducii ,g the age of votir.g since the National it could prove effective and not remain Convention of the Youth Congress at TmJ- merely as a silent provision. pati in August 1984 and the National Con- vention of the NSUS held at Nagpur in I am happy to say that we have now September 1984 which was attended by been able to formulate a number of propos- Indiraji and Shri Rajiv Gandhi in his capacity als to further Improve the electoral system. as General Secretary. The Constitution (Amendment) Biil is tor the purpose of amending Article 326 of the An average Indian citizen may not be Constitution to reduce the voting age from 21 familiar with the three R's like his western to 18 years. The Representation of the counterpart. However. in the matter of politi- People (Amendment) Bill contains several cal awareness and acumen in selecting provisions for bringing about important Parliamentarians and Legislators, he is changes and improvements in the Election second to none. The average Indian voter Law as contained in the Representation of has demonstrated his sound common- the People Act, 1950 and the Representa- senses combined with political maturity in tion of the People Act, 1951. the successive electiol"s held so far. How- ever, the youth in the age group of 18 to 21 I would like to briefly refer to the provi- years also are politically conscious and take sions incorporated in these two Bills. I shall keen interest in national and world affairs. take up first the Constitution (Amendment) Can we therefore, ignore the reality? Is it not Bill. proper and fair that the unrepresentee youth of this country should be given an opportu- The framers of the Constitution had nity to actively participate in the effective incorporated in Article 326 of the functioning of the parliamentary democracy 23 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14,1988 Representation 24 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[Sh. B. Shankaranand] Over the years, there has been an increasing tendency to vitiate the electoral by exercising their right of franchise? nrocsss. The Election Commission has noted with dismay that the number of inci- Government have, therefore. decided dents reported regarding malpractices dur- to bring about a much needed change in the ing election time and on the date of elections voting age. It is on the youth of the country. nas been increasing. On the other hand, the future of the country rests. The youth are there was the problem because of the fact already taking a very keen interest in political that the election scene attracted not only the affairs of the country. The measure pr - 'HHlOUS minded politicians but also all.and posed will only formalise it. sundry, including those with criminal rec- ords. Then, there was the problem created The Election Commission has esti- by local vested interests establishing an mated that if the voting age is reduced, an undesirable link with the local administration additional number of 47 million will become in order to have their own way. On many entitled to vote. They will have to be enumer- occasions, this undesirable link also got ated on the basis of a door-to-door survey. transformed into undesirable control render- The Election Commission will take neces- ing the local administration, so to say, mute sary steps in this regard once both the and helpless. The undesirable control of Houses of Parliament approve the Bill. such elements has emboldened them to commit such acts of lawlessness, like intimi- The process of enumeration and actual dating voters, taking physical possession of conduct of elections involving a larger body polling stations, threatening the police offi- of voters will certainly mean some additional cials and indulging in mass rigging etc. expenditure. But I am sure that all the hon. Members will agree with me that this is a We had. therefore, to think in terms of small price compared to the benefit of for- measures to check such tendencies. The mally integrating the youth of the country in Election Commission has been engaged in the political process. sensitive task. We hav~ to strengthen the hands of the Election Commission also. I am The Bill. after it is passed by both the happy to say that after careful consideration Houses of Parliament, will require to be of various suggestions, we have been able ratified by the Legislatures of not less than to arrive at a number of proposals to improve one half of the States as required under the electoral system further. Article 368 (2). Thereafter. Section 19 of the Representation of the People Act. 1950, will As the hon. Members are aware, tl" have to be amended because that Section Election Commission is dependant on tl"l'., also specifies the voting age of 21. It would machinery of the State Government CN: also be necessary to make one more change cerned, both in respect of the work of prep" in the 1950 Act. This change is regarding the ration. revision and correction of the elee qualifying date for enumerating the voters. toral rolls, an annual process, and the WOI; At present, according to the 1950 Act, the in connection with the actual conduct 0; qualifying date is first January of the year in elections. The staff involved in the elections which the electoral rolls are being prepared, work function under the superintendence. revised or corrected. A Bill further to amend direction and control of the Election the Representation of the People Act, 1950, Commission. It has now been found neces- will be brought up before this House later at sary that they should also be accountable to an appropriate time. the Election Commission for their actions. The amendments have been proposed to With your permission, Sir, I shall now ensure that such staff shall be subject to the deal with the provisions of the Representa- discipline of the Election Commission when tion of the People (Amendment) Bill. they are drafted for election work. •

25 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 26 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

India is a parliamentary democracy held, in an election case some time ago, that based on party system. Since the demo- without a formal provision in the statute, it cratic and the electoral process are sus- would not be legally permissible for the elec- tained and nourished by the activities of the tronic voting machines to be used. political parties, any ill-health affecting the political parties is bound to have some ad- I would like to make a reference to the verse effect on the body-politic of the coun- evil of booth capturing. I am sure that all the try. Although a number of languages, cul- Members of the House will agree with me tures and traditions are flourishing in the that this evil has to be put down with a firm country, all of us are one as a nation. We all hand. If it is allowed to remain unchecked, bear firm faith and allegiance to the serious distortions may result, apart from Constitution of India as by law established extreme lawlessness. It has, therefore, been and to the principles of socialism, secularism proposed to make booth capturing an of- and democracy, and would uphold the sov- fence and also a corrupt practice. We have ereignty, u'lity and integrity of India. also proposed that the Election Commission shall, in cases of large scale booth capturing, At present, there is no statutory defini- countermand the election in the whole con- tion of political party. It is proposed to rectify stituency in addition to ordering of repoll in this lacuna by including a specific provision particular booths. in the Representation of the People Act, 1951 setting out the procedures to be fol- On several occasions, election meet- lowed by all the political parties, both the ings are disturbed by vested interests. The existing and future ones, for seeking regis- present fine provided for in the statute is tration as a political party with the Election meagre, namely a bare fine of Rs. 250. It is Commission. now proposed to amend this provision to provide for a sentence of imprisonment and Section 8 of the Act already deals with enhanced fine of Rs. 1,000. disqualification on the ground of conviction for certain offences. In order to control the I would also like 10 clarify to the hon. nexus between persons with criminai record Members regarding those proposals for and election activity and to include more electoral reforms which are not included in offences in this section, suitable provisions the Bills before the House. There was ;'1 have ooan incorporated in the Bill. It may be proposal that delimitation of the constituen- said that Section 8 has been re-drafted for cies could be undertaken afresh and the achieving the desired objective. I may, in this reserved seats rotated without bringing ~ connection, mention that we hi1ve included about any change in the total number of conviction for certain economic and social seats in the Lok Sabha or the State Assem- offences also as a disqualification. blies. This would require a Constitutional Amendment and setting up of a Delimitation Modernised tools, based on latest tech- Commission through a separate enactment. nology, are increasingly being resorted to as Since the next General Elections are due in aids to decision making. The proposal for the December, 1989 it will be not possible, for .introduction of elsctrcnic voting machine the new Delimitation Commission to com- ·,::de by side with the existing ballot paper plete its work by that time. Moreover, even system should be viewed in this light. There after the completion of the delimitation work, the political parties and the candidates, in all .t ~ "rE' other advantages claimed for the elec- ,I tronic voting machine. It is cost reducing, fairness, would require some time to get ;, ! easy to operate and can act as an indirect familiarised with the revised boundaries. ! chock on rigging, ballot paper rejections etc. Keeping in view these considerations, it has Since the Representation of the People Act been decided to defer this proposal for the makes a specific mention of the ba!lot paper present. I may assure the hon. Members that systen cf voting, the Supreme Court had the idea has not been given up. l 27 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14. 1988 Representation 28 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[Sh. B. Shankaranand] dates. So far as the ceilings are concerned, the present provisions are contained in the likewise. there was a strong support for Conduct of Election Rules and can be modi- the Election Commission to function as a fied without amendment of the statute. As multi-member body and for the introduction regards State funding of election expenses, of photo identity cards of voters which may the matter requires careful study as It is not be used for more, than one purpose. As the sure whether the State funding of elections hon. Members are aware, sub-clause, (2) will be a solution to eliminate the infiuel"ce of and (3) of Article 324 of the Constitution money power in elections apart from th 3 already provide for the Election Commission heavy cost involved. to function with other Election Commission- ers besides the Chief Election Commis- In the end, I would like to say that the sioner. Similarly, in respect of photo identity process of electoral reiorms cannot be cards to voters, there is already a provision completed in one go. After removing the in the Registration of Electors Rules, 1960 major deficiencies and lacunae, we can for the Election Commission to introduce watch how the system is functioning. If nec- such cards. essary, further reforms can be thought of later. Another proposal stressed by all sections was elimination of non-serious candi- The proposals include in the present dates. This question was examined by Bills cover several important Items on which Government carefully. Mainly, three sug- a wide debate has been going on. There is a gestions came up for consideration in this consensus. It is my earnest hope that the two regard. Bills will have the unanimous support of this House. The first suggestion was that the security deposit should be stepped up signifi- I commend the Bills for the considera- cantly. tion of the House.

The second proposal was to include in MR. SPEAKER: Motions moved: - the statute provisions for a graded penalty with reference to the number of votes actu- "That the Bill further to amend the ally polled being below a specified percent- Constitution of India, be taken into age. The intention was to levy the penalty in consideration." addition to the forfeiture of the secUl ity deposit. "That the Bill further to amend the Representation of the People Act, 1950 The third suggestion was that tne and the Representation of the People names of the independent candidates Act, 1951 be taken into consideration". should be arranged in the ballot papers after the names of the candidates of the pJlitical Now Shri C. Madhav Reddi will speak. parties. SHRI C. MADHAV REDDI (Adilabad): After a careful examination, Govern- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the long awaited and much ment felt that all these proposals may not publicised Bill relating to the electoral re- achieve the desired objective. forms is before us. Before I make any com- ments on the two Bills, I would like to revert The question of the present ceiling for to the question raised during the Zero Hour election expenses being unrealistic was also and want to put the record straight. What the mentioned in the context of the proposal that Opposition wanted to say on this occasion the Government should reimburse; in kind or was only this. that there shouJd be a uniform in cash. the election expenses of candi- policy in regard to By-elections to the Partia- 29 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 30 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill ment and to the State Assemblies. But, the Members of this side and that side also Government has not been following any perhaps that a snap poll is going to come for uniform policy so far. There is no law regulat- Parliament and that is why by-elections are Ing the by-elections whether the elections / not being held. This is, of course, not a fact. should be held or not; at what time they But that rumour spread. And because of that, should be held etc. The Election Commis- the Opposition leaders were anxious to sion, in the absence of any rule, any law, was know as to what was the policy of the Gov- depending upon certain conventions which ernment. were several times broken. Sir, I remember one instance when the Presiding Officer the Sir, your observation that Government illustratious Shri Mavalankar died and the has nothing to do with this is correct, to an by-ejection came, there were hardly four extent. But the Prime Minister being the months forthe general elections. Even then, Leader of this House, has to explain the the by-election was held for whatever rea- position, if at all the Government wants to sons. We welcc'Tled that. Similarly, on other have a uniform policy about the holding of occasions also, by-elections were held even by-elections, it should have been there in though the general election was less than a this particular Bill, but it has not been done. year. This being the case, now to say that th~ by-elections cannot be held because the Sil, coming to the two Bills, I welcome general elections are coming within one the Amendment to Article 326 of the year, is odd. As a matter of fact, several of Constitution. I congratulate those young 47 these vacancies have been existing for more million voter~who are going to be enrolled to than one year and the elections could have participate in the eleFtoral process. But, I been held in the past. This plea that the would like to point out here that several general elections are about to come and States had already adopted this criterion for there is no need for holding by-elections is the Local Body elections. The States like not based on sound principles. The Opposi- Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, West Bengal tion anted to highlight this issue. I am sure and several States are already conducting they are gOing to take this opportunity to say elections on the basis of 1e years of voting on the Floor of the House while speaking on age for the Local Body elections and the these Bills. Of course, it 'is more relevant. Panchayat Elections. There is nothlPg no,\I in this. We have waited too long for this It 13 MR. SPEAKER: Now you see how the a unanimous opiOion of all the parties 11;'t' rules help you also. the young people should be enrollee &,'- Members and should be allowed to paitl!~I ( Interruptions) pate: in the democratic process.

SHRI C. MADHAV REDDI: I will come The idea of having electoral reforms, as to that later. is envisaged now, was mooted long time ago and several CommIttees have gone into MR. SPEAKER: I am only explaining those matters and several recommenda- my point of view. tions had been made. Here. J need not go into those various recommendations that ( Interruptions) were made from time to time right from Justice Wanchoo to Shri Shakhder and SHRI C. MADHAV REDDI: When the soveral people. The recent report, prepaied by-elections have to be held, there should be by Shri Gadgil for his own Party. well docu- no distinction between Assembly and the mented all these things. The only objection I Parliament. There was a rumour. There have is that having documented all the re- Were some Press Reports that the Assembly ports and having made out through docu- election wele to be held and the Farliament ments, a very stron~ case for State funding elections were to be postponed. scaring the of election~. finally its recommendations 31 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14,1988 Representation 32 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill

[Sh. C. Madhav Reddi] ahead. have fallen short of our expectations. This SHRI C. MADHAV REDOI: We oppose, Bill, as it is before us, this amendment to the as it is, the registration of political parties. We Representation to the People Act 1950, the welcome this provided there is State fund- Representation to the People Act 1951 falls ing, provided you are going to give funds to short dismally, much below our expecta- the political parties, to the candidates. When tidns. I oppose this Bill as it is today. My you are within your rights to say that the opposition is not against amendments that political parties mustfunction under a certain have been brought. My opposition is that regulated condition. Government has selected certain amendments which are more favourable to the Similarly, the provision relating to the ruling party. It is not taken as a package but placing of employees, the election machin- brought in a piece meal. ery of the State Governments under the ( Interruptions) control of the Election Commission. It is quite Justified only if the Election Commission is MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. really an independent commission, an independent body. \"Ihat is the Commission SHRI C. MADHAV REDDI: The biggest today? As the hon. Minister has pointed out, joke is this Bill - the Representation of the under Article 324 of the Constitution, the People (Amendment) Bill. J will come to that Election Commission can be appointed as a how it has been discriminated. I will give you multi-member commission. But have you instances of how certain recommendations done that? Have you done that multi-mem- had been taken out of their context and ber commission? Is there any statute? The included in this Bill. For example, there is a Article says that Parliament can pass law provision for the registration of political par- regulating the appointment, the conditions of ties. For the first time in this country, political service etc. of the Election Commission. party is being defined in this Bill and political That has not been done. The Election parties are required to be registered under Commissioner is being appointed under this particular Bill. But for what purpose? For certain rules. They do not enjoy the status of registration, there must be some purpose. a Supreme Court Judge; they do not enjoy What are you going to do with this party? If the status of the Comptroller and Auditor there is a State funding, certainly there is a General of India. If the Election CommiSSion case for registration, certainly there is a case is really independent, we have no objection for regulation, certainly there is a case for if these officers come under his discipline. asking the audited accounts etc. etc. But you Already the State Government offiCials for are not justified to regulate the political par- the purpose of elections are functioning ties of this country without giving anything. under the control, under the superinten- What is it that the Government is giving? As dence of the Election Commission. Already a matter of fact ... they are doing it. What additionally you are ( Interruptions) doing is that ~ou are p~tting them under the discipline of the Commission. 't means, PROF. N.G. RANGA (Guntur): To Commission will be in a position to take avoid fundamentalism. action to suspend erring officers if the Commission feels, if necessary. But for that, SHRI C. MADHAV REDDI: Are you Commission must be totally independent not sure that you are going to stop fundamental- only the Members of the Commission but ism by bringing this? also the staff of the Commission. As Gadgilji ( Interruptions) has rightly pointed out in his book, the SHRJ C. MAOHAV REDO I: I do not Commission's staff is not independent. They know how much time I have at my disposal. do not have any staff, any executive machinery. It has to be borrowed from Home Minis· MR. SPEAKER: You carry on. Go try and other Ministries. 33 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 34 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

12.00 hr•• see the realities, you will suffer and you will realise in future that this is a very dangerous They are not under his control. How do proposition. you expect that the Commission is going to be impartial? This is the point. The real point Coming to the question of the various is that you have omitted one thing, brought clauses which are sought to be amended, another thing and you have taken things out the Hon. Ministe,has said in his introductory of their context and you are asking for this Bill speech while moving the motion for consid- to be supported. We are sorry, the Opposi- eration that the object of this Bill is to see that tion cannot support many of these clauses there should be a clean politics in the coun':' wbich are put in this Reforms Bill. The Bill try. It should be fair and free election. The when it was being discussed-ot course , election is vitiated because of corruption, know there was no Bill, there was just a because of money power, because of vari- proposal and an idea-the Law Minister was ous types of malpractices, because of ad- conducting the negotiations and consulta- ministration being partial and several other tions with the Opposition Parties. At that defects. What is it that has been done? time, we suggested to the Law Minister that Lastly, he said one sentence that the State a meeting of the Opposition Parties should funding is not desirable. be convened, not just one wing of the political parties. The idea was never like this. The Gadgilji also concluded in his report that idea was that the Government should con- the State funding is unnecessary because sult the Opposition Parties and the Opposi- he felt that money power in the elections is tion Parties were not consulted. You have being exaggerated; if I remembers his words consulted Opposition Leaders individually correctly ... (/nterruptions) ... I can quote it. I by calling them to your room and discussing have his report with me. He said, the money the proposals with them. At that time, while power in the elections is being exaggerated; we expressed our views, we expressed that that is why he is not recommending any there should be a meeting of all the Opposi- changes, any State funding, etc. That is what tion Leaders and in that meeting the deci- he said in the report. We have all the reports sions could be taken. which you have published.

This is not a Bill on which a partisan What is the reality today? As long age attitude can be taken. After all, today you are as 1955 when our great Prime Minister onthatside and tomorrow you may beonthis Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru was alive what is it side and we may be on that that he said about elections? In one of his side ... (lnterruptions) ... There is no scope for fortnightly letters to the Chief Ministers in a partisan attitude in this Bill. Any electoral early 50s Panditji wrote-he used to write reforms have to be based on consensus of fortnightly letters to all the Chief Ministers, all the political parties in the country. You irrespective of political parties, which prac- cannot bring about any electoral reforms tice has now been dispensed with by our without the Opposition's cooperation. After present Prime Minister. all, this is a measure in which every party will have to be involved. Here I see that the I quote: Opposition's consent and cooperation had not been taken. ill confess that I find the electioneering business most depressing. I wonder Except one clause, except on measure sometimes, if this particular type of regarding the reduction of voting age from 21 democracy cannot be improved up on to 18, there is no other provision in which the some thing that brings out the undesir- Opposition can see eye to eye with the able features in a man's nature, his Governmenf . That is a very bad situation. If desire for power and position, his ac- you are goinG t,·) ~hut your eyes and refuse to quisitiveness and wish for self advance- 35 Conslltution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 36 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill

[Sh. C. Madhav Reddi) electoral laws to ensure cleaner elections. We will make political parties ment, even at the loss of others his accountable for the funds they receive. It losing all perspective of the larger issues and judging everything by petty The whole idea was the clear politics. personal victory." He was not concerned with the peripheral changes which have been brought. The That is what he said tn 1955. We have whole idea was that there should be cleaner travelled a long way after that. What is the elections and for that State funding must be corruption today? Atthat time it was not even introduced. That has not been done. one-tenth ofwhat1t is today. In my elections when contested in 1951 spent Rs. 10,000 1 I In 1985, in his Address to the Joint for Parliament Today cannot tell you how J Session of Parliament Gyaniji said:' much party spends because at that time party was no1 permitted to spend. All expen- "Government are committed to a clean diture, whether spent by the party, individ- public life. They intend to initiate wide ual, friends or other associations was in- ranging discussions on electoral re- cluded. Even then I had to spend only Rs. forms with political parties." 10,000 and get myseH elected, a poor man like me. But today can anybody think of Now, these are the commitments made getting himself elected with even As. 1lakh? by several dignitaries and these are also the aspirations of the people. They were expect- SOME HON. MEMBERS: How much ing that something will be done through had you spent? which the money power will be curbed. Why has this action not been taken particularly SHRI C. MADHAV REDDI: Thanks to when some States have already taken initia- the amendment of 1974, I had not spent tive? Is it not surprising that small hilly States anything. Everything was spent by the party are taking decision to finance the local body ( Interruptions) elections whereas Central Government is not in a position to do so-not even in kind. 12.08 hrs. Several committees recommended that if you cannot give in cash, give in kind, give (MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER in the Chair] posters; stop this poster war and restrict the posters. You give funds for printing, for Sir, the whole concept of electoral re- several things and restrict the vebicles to be forms was based only on this. Right from the plied on roads during the elections. Now all beginning when the Prime Minister made the this is not being done. statement or when the President of India, Gyaniji said in his Presidential Address. The Mr. Gadgil, at one point, said that if this whole burden was that money power should is done, this will be an additionality. Already be curbed and that is only thing which is they will be collecting funds from other absent in the Bill. f would like to quote what sources. If the State also gives, this money the Prime Minister himself saidin hiS address will be additionally spent on the elections. to the Congress Plenary Session in Bom- That is all wrong. When we talked of State bay: funding of elections, the whole idea was that State must have an exclusive funding right "The country needs a politiCS of servlc(: for elections. No private funding must be to the poor. The country needs a politics there. That has to be restricted. We never based on ideology and programmes. To thought that there should be a dual f.un?i~g bring this about. we must break the of elections from the party, from the Indlvld· nexus between political parties and ual as well as from the Goverr'lment. That vested interests. We will change the was never the idea. 37 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAVANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 38 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

I now come to the question of the offi- that seems all right. But will that serve the cers being treated on deputation to the purpose? It went to court also and the court Government of India. When I go through the upheld that it can be done. There is no Financial Memorandum, it does not say discrimination. Some such measure was to anything. It does not say what is the total be brought about in this Bill but it was not expenditure which is likely to be incurred by being done. No serious effect was made to this particular clause by treating these offi- eliminate the non-serious candidates. What cers on deputation. As we all know, when an we find here is only a provision relating to the officer goes on a deputation or treated on a candidates for the Counc;1 of States and the deputation, you have to pay deputation al- Legislative Councit . What is the problem lowance. I calculated that and I found you aboutthe legislative Council. I do not under- have to pay nearly Rs. 25-30 crores per stand. There even if you have ten candi- eledion to the offICers only on deputation dates, nothing is, going to happen because allowance. Have you considered this? Are after all it is a limited franchise. The real you going to pay? Hyou say, you cannot pay, malady is in the Assembly and parliamen- he will go to the CO.Jrt and get a direction from tary elections, not for the Council elections or the court. Then you have to pay through your local body elections. That has not been nose. Why have you not considered the done. I think, a more serious thought should financial implication of treating the officers have been given to this particular aspect and on deputation? It has not been properly the candidates should have been eliminated examined by the Law Mmistry. Forthis you can increase the deposit. When we suggested that deposit can be increased The hon. Mmister was telling just now to Rs 10,000 or Rs 25,000, it was opposed that non-serious candidates have to be by saying that If that is the case, the poor eliminated. That is the recommendation of man will be prevented from filing nomina- every Committee. But what have you done to tions. The poor man can be given loan. If he eliminate the non-serious candidates? gets the required number of votes, he will get There are a large number of candidates. the deposit back and the loan it can be When Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh- con- repaid. soml3 such thing IS possible. That is tested from Allahabad, there were about 65 what the Andhra Pradesh Government has candidates. The ballot paper was as long as done already in the panchayat elections. six feet. It was difficult for the voters to go The Bill is already before the assembly. We through and find out the symbol of Shri have given that Bill has been referred to the Singh. Even then, he has won. That shows Select Committee to study for incorporation the greatness of the individual. But the point of some of these clauses in the Bill, but that is how to eliminate the bogus candidates or has not been done so far. the non-serious candidates-mostly independents. Of course, when we say non- Coming to the question of issue of photo serious candidates, we presume that they identity cards, the Minister just now said thai are all independents. It is argued that we the photo Identity cards is something whIch cannot make a distinction between the inde- can be done without bnnging in the Btil pendents and the other party candidates. because rules can be framed. All right, but That is wrong. We have already made a whEtn you trame the rules and incur some distinction in the case of Punjab elections. In expenditure, how are you gOing to mea: Punjab. when the elections were being held, that? If there was a mention about that in th~ we promulgated an Ordinance. In that we Financial Memorandum. I could understand said that if an independent candidate dies that you were serious about it. But are you before the eJections are over, the ejections serious about that? If you were serious, :;:ou would not be countermanded on that should have certainly mentioned that in the ground. In other words, the normal law would Financial Memorandum because on thiS not apply to an independent candidate. It certain amount, says Rs. 2 crores or Rs ~ applies only to party candidates. In away, crores have to be incurred. You have Ii;:;t 39 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14. 1988 Representation 40 Sscond Amdt.) Bill & of People (Arndt) BiD

[Sh. C. Madhav Reddi1 settle those things between the c.andidates. If they do not listen, record that and keep it as done that. The idea is not that the voters evidence so that that evidence can be led in themselves would incur that expenditure. the court if an election petition is filed. There The voters themselves would incur that ;s no scope for a reference. There are, of expenditure. The voter has to pay but there course, observers, but they have no powers. should be fifty per cent subsidy on that, but They observe and go away and give their you should have made a mention about the reports to the Election Commission. That is expenditure to be incurred in the Financial not the point. What is required is that in Memorandum, but you have not done that. elections, referee should be appointed by That only shows that the Government is not the Election commission in each constitu- serious you will never do that. Another Bill ency, so that the referees will pacify the Representation of the People (Amendment) parties. he will see that the parties settle by BII' is going to come after some time when them selves and if they do not settle by them- the Constitution Amendment Bill is approved selves, he makes a note and it becomes by fifty per cent of the Assemblies I would evidence before the court, so that the erring urge upon the Minister to take the opportu- persons gets convicted. nIty to change the Representation of the People Act, 1950 also and see that this is These are some of the observations provided in the Act itself. which I would like to make. With these re· marks, I conclude and I oppose the Bill while We of course, welcome certain meas- supporting the Constitutional Amendment ures such as the booth capturing has been Bill. made now a penal offence. But then my point is how many cases have ended in conviction SHRI V.N. GADGIL: (Pune) Sir,l begin during the last thirty eight years. So many my speech With a tribute to the Indian voter; elections have been held. How many people he may be illiterate, but the way he has have been convicted? This question comes displayed his falent for working out the sys- only after conviction. You can disqualify a tem successfully I for that I salute his sagac- man if there is conviction. But where is the ity, his political erudition and his maturity. If conviction? Kindly give me statistics to show India has succeeded as a Parliamentary how many people had really been convicted Democracy, it is very largely due, to borrow because of corrupt practices under the Churchill's words. to that little man making'~ Representation of the People Act so far. If little cross on a little piece of paper in a litUe there is no conviction. there w~1 n01 be any room. That man is really the person who disqualification. It will remain a dead letter in deserves credit. the Statute Book; if is not going to be implemented at all. Sir, it is well known that the election is a device, a measuring system , to assess Finally, about the control of mass media political reactions of the people to certain nothing has been mentioned here. The issues. If that be so, it is obvious that the Minister says that there is no need for all measuring device must be impartial and these things to be mentioned here; those accurate.By and large, our system has would be incorporated in the rules. But can worked well but certain defects have crept in you make a commitment to that effect? Can and they will always creep in but our duty is you, say that election quarrels are not there to take timely action. during our elections? Having contested elections ten times so far-some times I The British democratic system look have been defeated and some times I have nearly hundred years to arrive at their pres- won-\ know what happens in the constitu· ent system. All kinds of influences. had influ- encies when petty Quarrels become big. ences of money, ~iquor and what not pre- There must be somebody on the spot to vailed there. There was a time when thA 41 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Representation 42 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

candidates used to keep barrels of beer leaders said that our combination is Ajgar, open for the voters and everybody used to etc. e ~. drink, make merry and ultimately cast vote. There is one story of what kind of influences ( Interruptions) were used. SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY The story is that in one West Minister's (Mahbubnagar): Sir, nobod, stated this. He constituency a beautiful dutches of Doben- is trying to put words in the mouth of the shire offered to kiss every voter who would Opposition. vote for her candidature. Such system pre- vailed. Seats were not only advertised but it SHRI V. N. GADGIL: I am relying on the was sold and the average rate was quoted in source on which you always rely, is.e. the the newspaper The average rate at one time newspaper. Newspaper quoted it. of purchasing a constituency used to be 8000 Pounds. SHRI S. JAIPAl REDDY: It has been denied. (Interruptions) In America you have a famous Tam- many Hall where all kinds of influences are MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Reddy used. One of the bosses, Plunkitt wrote in you please sit down. 1905, .. I had a cousin, a young man who did not take any particular interest in politics. I SHRI S. JAIPAl REDDY: Sir, It is re- went to him and said, 'John, I am going to be lated to the Opposition, Should we not clarify a politician and I want to get a following. Can it? I count on you? He said, 'Sure George, that is how f started in business. I have got a SHRI V. N. GADGIL: I have not men- marketable commodity, the vote." "This is tioned any person's name I am quoting what America. Even now there are some sceptics I read in the newspapers. In any case Sir, our who say that all is not well with the British slogan is, 'Cost the vote' and their slogan is, system. . 'Vote the caste.' That is the only difference.

One of the poets, all of you know him, SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY: That is the says" reason, Sir, why they have been talking to Vanniyars in Tamil Nadu. (Interruptions) "The accursed power which stands for privilege goes with women, champagne SHRI V. N. GADGIL: There are three and bridge Broke and Democracy re- significant aspects of this Bill. In the very first sumed her reign which goes with bridge year of his career as the Prime Minister, Shri women and champagne." Raiiv Gandhi, introduced the Anti-Defection Bill. Nearer home, Sir, in my constituency some 40 years back all kinds of influences SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY: And Shri were used, e.g. liquor, money and so on. Sharad Pawar is the Chief Minister of Mahar- There was one illicit liquor manufacturer. He ashtra! (Interruptions) used to give one note and a peg. In Marathi the peg is called "Ghot" So, his slogan was MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: No com- Ghot, Note and Vote. This was the system ments please. Allow him to speak. that was prevailing there. So all kinds of influences crept in. SHRJ V. N. GADGIL: In the fifth year, he has brought this Sitl. The Bi\l also shows the We have one more thing which is like a best evidence of the inner democracy that disease in the Indian social life and that is the prevails in the Congress party. (Interrup- Caste. I was surprised when the Opposition tions) 43 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14,1988 Representation 44 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

SHRI S.JAIP~L REDDY: The biggest dependence of the Election Commission joke of the yearl and asked why all these provisions have been brought. He said that the Election SHRIV.N.GADGIL:Thesubjectofelec- Commission is not independent, and there- toral reforms was discussed in all the Con- fore it cannot be entrusted with this power. I gress Committees - the Pradesh Congress am a little surprised because they are the Committees, meetings of the Chief Ministers very persons in the Opposition who wanted and the PCC Presidents, the Working to hand overthe Doordarshan to the Election Committees of the Alec and the whole Commission during the time of elections. So, gamut. far that purpose the Election Commission is independent and for this purpose it is not I The first provison that the Bd. has introduced is-the lowering of the age. 1am happy Mr. Advatli and others suggested that that the Opposition is welcoming it As has when elections are announced, two to three been told, the initiative was taken by the months prior to elections, the State Govern- Congress Party-not only the Youth Con- ments should be dissolved and the state gress and the NSUI- but the Congress party machinery should be left to the Chief Secre- itself which has introduced the age of 18 for tary or the Governor or whosoever it is. So, Zilla Parishads, Municipalities, etc. :n vari- all these persons are independent and the ous States. whole thing can be entrusted to them. But they do not trust the independence ot the SHRI S.JAIPALREDDY: Which are the Election Commission. It is because the Elec- Congress States where this is introduced? tion CommIssion is really impartial which IS to their disadvantage. Therefore, they are SHRI V.N. GADGIL: Read this. opposing it.

SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY: That is a Bible Now, I come to the aspect of disqualifi- for the Congress people and not for us. cations. A number of disqualifications have been prescribed and this shows the whole ( Interruptions) thrust of the social polities of the Govern- ment. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please do not interrupt. Sir, several enactments are mentioned - a conviction under which we disentitle a SHRI S. JAIPAl REDDY: Okay Sir,l am person to contest for six elections. This is a not speaking. very salutary and a very welcome provision.

SHRI V.N. GADGll: Now the secret With regard to the registration of par- is out. Because he is not speaking, he IS ties, some objection is raised. Why have you interrupting . got all these things? It is already there in the symbols' order. Now I understand their dif- It is obvious that if a person of 18 year& ficulty. They have a difficulty. I will not go into age is mature enough to join the Army, to the rest of it. Take the first thing. First is the enter into a valid contract to be a director of name of the Association. They are really jn acompany and so on, there is no reason why difficulty. I sympathise with them. It is be- he should not exercise his right to vote in the cause, whether it is Janata Dal or something State legislatures and Lok Sabha elt.:.ctions. like that, the very first difficulty is what name Therefore, according to me, this st~p that the to give. Therefore, I understand their diffi- Government ;s now taking is a very hisloric culty. (Interruptions) Names change. Office step. bearers change. So, there is a difficulty for them. I understand it. Suddenly it somebody Shri Madhav Reddi questioned the In- resigns. then somebody says "No, his resig- 45 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHA YANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Representation 46 Second Amdt.) BiJl & of People (Amdt.) Bill nation is not accepted. It is not resignation." they so readily pass a judgement. " I was a All times these difficulties they have. There- victim of that. Let me make a confession. I fore, naturally they will oppose it. I will only was a v:ctim of what he said. There was a tell him this story. W~en Curzon was a For- time when I was very enthusiastic about the eign Minister- you like this story, so I am State funding. But when I went into its telling you this story. Mr. Reddy- in lloyd deeper, I found that the remedy IS worst than George's Cabinet, a Junior Minister was the disease. That has been the e~riaoce sitting by the side of Lloyd George. Suddenly of other countries and Idare say, It will be our a message came that the Foreign Minister experience if we jntroduce_ First place is has resigned and the Junior Minister got what is the cost? I am not quoting any agltated---crisis in the Party, Crisis in Gov- Congress Office bearer, I am quoting a ernment, what will happen? He looked at retired Secretary of the Election Commis- Lloyd George's face. there was nothing on sion. What does he say? He says· for every his face. He was calm, coal and collected. lok Sabha Election, the Legitimate expen- He said "Sir, the Foreign Minister has re- diture on posters, for 21 days one jeep for Six signed. .. StiIJ Lloyd George did not say Assembly Constituencies, etc. in terms f anything. He repeated again. Th£n he said, 1986 prices will cost As. 5,80 000" "Young man, don't worry. Lord Curzon has employed two Messengers - what we call as Assume that there are three minimum Chaprasis . One is lame and the other is the candidates, one from each of the major OlympIC runner. He sends his letter of resig- parties. So, 544 constituencies multiplied by nation with the lame person and the letter of three, multiplied by Rs 51akhs , comes to Rs withdrawal of resignation with the Olympic 98 crores. Then how can you deny it to runner." And Lloyd George said, "The letter Independents? If you give it to Independ- of withdrawal will reach me first. So, you ents, it will be an astronomical figure. What don't worry." So, my advise to them is - why is more, if you give it to Independents, it do you bother about resignation, You em- might encour,age non-serious candidates, ploy two Chaprasis and your work will be whom you want to stop. done. Naturally, they have difficulties about the various provisions regarding registration Now, what will be the expenses? This of parties, names who are the office bearers, memorandum says this about the electronic the number of Members of Parliament, machines; Rs 250 crores. If you introduce Legisiatures, etc. They have difficulties and identity cards-at the moment there are 40 understandably so. (/nterruptions) Much crores of voters. Hwe lower the age. it will be has been made about the State Funding. All 45 crores. Hyou take Rs 10 per card, it will be the time the Report of the Committee of Rs. 450 crores. So. Rs 250 crores plus As which I happened to be the Chairman has 100 crores plus Rs 450 crores. for funding by been quoted; sometimes out of context and the State, of candidates excluding Inde- sometimes conveniently. It does not matter. pendents. Including Independents. it will Before I say anything on this State funding again be an astronomical figure, So, the and the system of elections, I would like to questIon in the first place is whether you can point •out one warning by a distinguished afford it. Scholar who all of use know Mr. J. F.S. Ross. He has written a book called "How democra- The second submission I would make eies vote?" I would like to read a sentence regarding State-funding is this: is there any from that. I quote: It is disturbing to notice assurance that when you introduce State- how many people including universities, funding, the taking of money from industrial- dons and Members of Parliament talk and ists, businessmen and traders and what write glibly about alternate votes, propor- have you, will stop? I will quote a very high tional representation, etc. when their own authority and an eminent leader belonging to words show how they lack even a rudimen- the Opposition. Mr. 8ahuguna says that you tary understanding of the process on which will not be in a position to stop people from 47 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14,1988 Representation 48 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

ISh. V.N. Gadgil] increase. The Opposition is familiar with all the arguments. Si. I will not details them. taking money from these sources. Unless you are sure, he says, you should not intro- SHRt SAIFUDDIN CHOWDHARY: duce State-funding. What will happen is this: (Kishanganj): Which party? they will take from Government, and also from industries. So, the money power will, In SHRI V.N. GADGIL: Any party. Do not fact, increase, in the electoral process. This ask me to tell you private things. All the is the second aspect. parties. Bossism is there in all the parties. You read the literature of your party in the The third aspect is this. Take West Soviet Union, and your own party in irIdian Germany, Italy, Japan, France-any of the for the last 20 years. There are aU kinds of countries. What is their experience? State- bossism. (Interruptions) funding has not stopped political parties and candidates from getting money from other I am thinking of the candidates. Sec- sources. If that is the experience of the so ondly, it completely breaks the link between called sophisticated, advanced democra- the MP or the MLA and the electorate. In a cies, I do not think we are any better, , we are developing country, we cannot afford it. You in a better situation as of the moment, to stop will then have no interest supposing we people from taking money from other introduce the list System. Why should I do sources. So, 'State-funding will, on the any work for the people in Poona? J will feel contrary, be counter-productive. that if I just appease my bosses, I will get the ticket. And that will be all. The link will be I now come to the basic point. I for one broken. do not believe it. I have fought four lok Sabha elections. Right from my childhood, I The third submission I would make is have found that my house has been a politi- that in the list system, what will happen? If cians' house. I have seen nothing but elec- you go by percentage Prof. Dandavate is a tions. With that experience, I do not believe mathematician, he will correct me, if I am that you can win elections with money. That wrong. (Interruptions) He has said, that the is an insuh to the intelligence of the elector- hoax of the present system is that 40 percent ate. Mr. Tata, Mr. Birla, the two big guns, is ruling with 60 percent on the opposite side. both of them fought eJections, and both of etc., that is the stock argument which has them miserably failed. And therefore, the been going on for the last forty-fifty years. If Indian voters is very discerning. So, State- the Congress cannot rule because 60 per- funding does not solve the problem. The cent are against it, then certainly CPM, CPI remedy is elsewhere, and not in bringing or BJP cannot rule because 97 percent or 90 State-funding in. percent are against then. That is no argument. Statistically, I can show you. Take a Then there ;s another aspect which was party, I hope that BJP will not be annoyed not mentioned here, but which is one of the with me. Suppose we take BJP. They con- Opposition's demands. It is the List System- test 544 seats, all of them. What is our not proportional representation, but the List present law? You must get one-sixth of the System. I have examined this very studi- vote to save your security deposit. Suppos- ously. If you permit my saying so, since I left ing you take the figure from 1952 onwards till college, I have not studied any other subject today, if you take the BJP vote, average it so much. For one month, from 10 a.m. to 5 out, and if you find that in the next election p.m. J was studying nothing else. What J do 544 seats they contest, ard in all of them find in the list System? Three or four coun- they get' one-seventh vote, or everywhere tries which had adopted it, are going back on they will lose deposit, 544 deposits lost I But It, because they had a very bad experience. what will happen? Because it has one-sev- The power of the bosses in the party will enth votes, they will get 77 seats in the lok 49 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 50 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill

Sabha. So, a party which is rejected by the drawn_ Some people are drawing conclu- entire electorate in India with contempt, by sions, that are not really in favour of Con- losing their deposits in all the 544 constituen- gress. If Congress wins, it is because of cies will be getting 77 seas here. Is that money. If Congress wins, it is because of democracy? I repeat: Is that democracy? If power. If Congress wins it is due to Govern- 44 percent cannot rule here, then surely a ment machinery, or Congress wins with the party which loses deposits in all other con- use of Government machinery. And if Shri stituencies cannot get 77 seats! (Interrup- V.P. Singh wins, it is due to his high ethical tions) values! (Interruptions) So, I would li~,e to read what a reviewer write about those stud- So, in every system I said, there are ies, in England. On British elections by Butler defects. In this system too there are defects. and Stokes, The reviewer wrote about those Therefore defects in all systems. You have academic reviews: to see which IS the best and I may subrpit that the supreme virtue of the present system is "Which of them put in the Jokes, its simplicity With which the Indian voter can Was it Butler, was it Stokes? usefully work. So, there is no need for a When the jokes are getting subtler change. Is it Stokes or is it Butler"

Then there are other provisions in thiS You can go on and use alll(inds of words. Bill to which not much serious objections have been raised but which seem to me are very welcome. One is. about booth-shifling. I have said at the Ol.!tset that I have Fortunately, the State from where I come complete faith in the average Indian voter, has not seen it. But I have seen its vile effect hiS politicat sagacity, his maturity, his acu- in operation in other parts of the country. The men. He knows. provision about booth-shifting is welcome to all, irre~pecti\'e of the party. SIr, the voter who rejected us in SIX or seven States in 1967. within two years SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOWDHARY: brought us back. The same voter gave us a Booth-capturrng. massive majority in 1971 and he threw us out in 1977. The same voter brought us back in SHRI V.N. GADGIL: Yes, Booth-cap- 1980. The same voter who gave us a mas- tUring sive mandate in 1984, v;lthin five months rejected us In four or five States. I have high MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He could regard for him. Therefore, I say, 'I salute the have said 'bootr,-lifting'. Indian voter'. He will take care of this inspite of ~'hat we may say here. ( Interruptions)

If ~'ou ask me the essence ot thiS Bill, SHRI V.N. GADGIL: That 1<3 the tl ouble. then I would say, as has been saId by a great They want to play on words. You go on democrat. the right to 'lote is the essence of writing pamphlets and how Congress does democracy. If the right to vote is the essence not deserve to rule, how it spoiled the history. of democracy. then I wou;d hke to say that and so on. Since he is an interested readel-- the right to vote was given to my generation or Mr. Reddy, I have a particular weal<.ness by Dr. Ambedkar and I say, historically, it is for him, it is for him-I will say. All kinds of very appropriate. I say. historically it is very anaiysis of the British elections appear and appropriate, coinciderice. apt coincidence. all kinds of conclusion<3 are drawn. But there that the next generation wili get the right to is a team of authors, Butler and Stokes. Thay vote from Mr. ShaJ"lkaranand. This is the go on analysing and conclusions like this are histone part of it... (Interruptions) 51 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 52 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill

SHRI S.JAIPAL REDDY: Mr. Shankar- SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY: I think, Mr. anand can now hope to shine in the reflected Somnathji will also refer to his father's quo- glory of Dr. Ambedkar .. (Interruptions) tation, who was a Member of Parliament. .. (Interruptions) SHRI V.N. GADGJL: Finally. Sir. if you will permit me to strike a personal, note m MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Mr. Jaipal one of the books my father advocated reduc- Reddy, he will quote your quotation. Do not tion of voting age to eighteen. When I vote for worry. this Bill today, I have a feeling that I am fuHiliing a serious obligation. PROF. MADHU DANDl\VATE: Sir, the adference is, he follows his father, but he Sir, when you enter this august pren does not. Ises, you will find. MR. DEPUTY·SPEAKER: Shri Som- Na sa sabha yatra na santi vridha nath Chatterjee. virdha na te yen vadanti dharma. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE I would take the liberty of amending it (Bolpur): Mr. Deputy-Speaker Sir. it is ironi- and say: cal that this House today is to discuss the question of electoral reforms when we No sa sabha yatra na santi yuva should be mourning the massacre of parha vridha na te yen vadanti sat yam. m9ntary democracy by not holding by-elections to this House which are overdue and Therefore, let the forces of this august which could have been easily held and are House.... not being held because of the machinations of the ruling party which Out of nervousness ( Interruptions) and cowardice. are not prepared to face the e!ectorate ... ( Interruptions) PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ (Baramu1Ia): Sir, kindly ask Mr. Gadgil to translate it. SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK (Panaji): Sir, the Speaker has given hiS ruling. But ho is SHRI V.N GADGIL: I will translate it in casting aspersions on the decision of the English. Election Commission ... (Interruptions)

That is no Assembly where there is no PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Sir, he youth. has misunderstood. He has not talked about c.owardice of the Election Commission, but It is no youth which does not utter the he has talked about cowardice of the truth. Government. .. (lnterruptions)

Therefore, I say, pass this 8111 and throw the SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Sir, portals forces of this august House open to what is the good saluting the Indian voters the younger generation which is wailing when you are not giving them an oPJJortunity outside. to exercise their franchise. Mr. Gadgil opened his speech by paymg encomiums to Indian voters and Gnded his speech with a MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shn Som- quotation, though not quite apt. nath Chatterjee. Please be brief. Only 18 minutes are allowed for your party. Sir, I would have expe~ted that the ruling party here had been fair and candid PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: This is and should have disclosed their commit- a '/ery impo~ant Bill ... (lnterruptions) ment to bring abollt electoral reforms to do 53 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23. 1910 (SAKA) Representation 54 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill away with the evils which have already they filed it in the High Court before the single enguHed the entire electoral process in this judge. It went to the Division Bench. Again country. The use of money power, the use of trying to stop it, they filed it in the Division muscle power, the abuse of the official Bench. Then, they went to the Supreme media, the promises that are made just be- Court and ultimately they had to withdraw fore the election of giving executive patron- the petition because they had no merits in age-nOt a single provision has been made in the matter. This is the commitment of the this Bill that we are having. This Bill has been ruling party. (Interruptions) presented with great fanfare. If you go through the provisions Sir, it ;s nothing but a KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE: Sir, J lip-service which is paid to the question of have a point of order. The hon. Member is electoral reform by the party in power The referring to a Member of the House. He is inadequate provisions which are made will mentioning the name of Shri Ajit Kumar hardly solve any of the basic problems that Panja in regard to the filing of the writ peti- are plaguing the Indian electoral system. tion. But he is not present in the House. How That is why, we feel that this Government can he mention his name when he is not has got a vested interest in maintaining and present in the House? perpetuating the distortions and the infirmities in the electoral system because they are MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He is a the biggest beneficiaries of that. Member of this House. It is not an allegation.

Therefore, it is not that this ruling party ( Interruptions) here today can take the credit. Sir, what has happened in different States? In 1978, when SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Un- the Municipal Elections were held in West lass you control the House, how can I Bengal, the voting age was reduced to 18. speak? sir, this petition was filed in the year Some States have done it followed by West 1980 before the Calcutta High Court and I Bengal. The Karnataka Government nas can authenticate this copy and lay it on the done it. But the point is, look at the hypocrisy Table of the House. of the ruling party. A writ petition was filed in the Calcutta High Court challenging the MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: No, no; you reduction of the voting age to 1B. Sir, I am carry on. quoting from th~ Writ petition. It says: SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Sir, "The Provisions for inclusion of the the therefore not much credit can be claimed by Indian citizens of age of 18 years and this Government (Interruptions). Sir, out of below 21 years as voters In the electoral many important reforms, this reform is nec- roll is illegal and void." essary. The Government h:1S' chosen the reduction in the voting age Vo.1Ic.h we welcome. Better late than never. But sc far as There is no rational basis fer making the the ruling party is concerned this so-called persons of age-group of 18 years and 20 concession on their part is notning but a years eligible to vote ;n the Municipal e/ec- desperate attempt to ingratiate Itself to the tions whereas the same person should not young people of this country who are suffer- be eligible to vote in Parliamentary and ing under maladies, under the anti-people Assembly elections. The said purported policies of this Government and today the provision is contrary to the spirit and object of young people are the largest number of the Constitution of India and is unconstitu- unemployed people in thiS countr}'. Today, tional and invalid. Who said this? Mr. Ajit they are suffering becaus.e of the economic Kumar Panja has said this. Sir, in his capac- policies, because of the industrial policies of ity, he filed a writ petition as the President of the Government and more and more people West Bengal Congress (I) Party. In Calcutta, are becoming unemployed. 55 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 56 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

13.00 hrs. in Parliament have varied from forty percent in 1969 to 48.1 percent in 1984-when we KUMAR I MAMATA BANERJEE: What were told of the massive mandate.! It has do you do in West Bengal? (Interruptions) secured majority of the seats with minority of the votes and even they have got more than SHRI SOMNATH CHATIERJEE: Sir, two-thirds of the seats with getting less than unanimous recommendations of the parlia- fifty percent of the votes. Is this not a distor- mentary committee in 1972 was not action in the system? ... (Interruptions). These cepted and now the ruling party finds ItseH are not my statistk:s, these are the statistics more and more alienated from the people of of the Election CommiSSion. Therefore, we this country generally. Now, they have know why they are anxious not to have thought of this as if they were giving some proportional representation of list System concessions to the young people witi~ a vain because they will never be able to come to hope that the young people will voteforthem power if the proportional representation in the next election. But I can assure my system is followed. That is why today, Mr. friends on the other side. that they are Gadgil, after a lot of study it is good at least completoly under misconceptIon. The he has made a study, as he says; I accept his ~oung people will never vote for them. It is statement he has been able to find out that to the young people of this country who have remain in power, his party cannot afford to demanded this and who have got this nght. adopt the proportional representation sys- It is not your Government. It is not the gift of tem. Naiurally, they will have to oppose it. the ruling party. This right of vote at the ago of eighteen has been earned by the young Now, what about the State funding, they people of this country themselves. This are saYing? It is the ruling party, the Con- Government owes many more things to the gress party who has changed the election young people of this country. They must law. They have permitted unlimited dona- have a commitment to the basic postulates tions by the companies to the ruling party of the constitution of India so far as the young after Mrs. Indira Gandhi's election was set people of this country are concerned. They aside in 1974... (Interruptions). In 1974, the must have their commitment to the Directive whole election law was changed regarding Principle& 01 the State Policy so far as the the election expenses, as you know. To save young people of this country are concerned. the election of one person in this countr)'. Now this Government IS not fulfilling any of post-haste Ordinances were brought. their obligations towards the young people. changing the election law. The Act was They are suffering under total frustration. amended to bring about changes in the They are not given jobs. Their future is election law for only one candidate's elec- uncertain in thiS county. They are grouping tion. Mr. Amer tlath Chawla was our col- today, and ihe Government thinks that today league in the Fifth Lok Sabha here. He was they are bnnglng about such a change in the a member of that committee. HIS election electoral system of this country that the was set aside because the party's expendi- people will run after them. They are in for a ture was included in his own election ex- great disappointment. I have no manner of penses and it was held that the ceiling had doubt. been exceeded. So, he lost. His election was set aside by the Supreme Court. No amend- There is no difficulty in identifying the ment was brought in the law until Mrs. Indira problems which are affecting our electoral Gar,dhj's election was set aside for exceed- system. Mr. Gadgil took so much pains to ;ng the election expenses and forthwith, and explain why the List System should not be behold, an Ordinance came overnight. But fonowfAi. But we cannot forget in this country Mr. Amer Nath Chawla was not spread that the Congress Party has never come to becaustt the law provided that election al- power with the majority votes. Ever since the ready set aside will not be revived. Retro- 1952 elections, the Congress votes per seat spectively the law was changed for one 57 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23. 1910 (SAKA) Representation 58 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

person in this co.untry~ Who has permitted? AN HON. MEMBER: Allow him to pro- This rufing party has permitted unlimited ceed. expenditure for election. Now who is getting "the benefit of donations, Sir? Which party is MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: If you coop- getting the benefit of donations? erate only I can do something.

( Interruptions) SHRI V. SOBHANADREESWARA RAD (Vijayawada): You please control SHRI T. BASHEER (Chirayinkil): them, Sir. . know the 13th Party Congress of the Marxist Party is going to be held in Kerala, you are MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am cOntrol- spending crores of rupees in Kerala, Trivan- ling, but .nobody is listening. I will have to drum. We know the sources. You come to adjourn, that is all. If you go on shouting, I will Kerala and you will see that crores of rupees adjourn. Please listen to me. I request all of are being spent there. you to cooperate with me. If you go on shouting, I cannot shout like you, I can only ( Interruptions) adjourn. That is all I can do. Also, when I order, you have to listen to me. If you go on MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please or- shouting always, what can I do then? What der. is this?

SHRI SDMNATH CHATIERJEE: How can you say? MR DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Why are MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You are you shouting? Listen to me. This;s not ~ yielding, that is the problem. the way. If you behave like that, I cannot aliow you. I am here to control. Who are (Interruptions) you to say that? Please listen to me.

SHRf SOMNATH CHATIERJEE: f am ( Interruptions) not interrupting anybody ... (Interruptions) SHRI T. BASHEER: You look at your MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I request the hand, hen. Members to cooperate with the Chair, and allow the Member to speak. Don't dis- ( Interruptions) turb him. MR. DEPUTY -SPEAKER: If you ( Interruptions) disturb like that, I cannot run the House.

SHRt T. BASHEER: It is very bad and (Interruptions) unfortunate. (Interruptions) You are spending crores of rupees. From where is it com- MR. DEPUTY -SPEAKER: I go on ing? We know, and Kerala People know. telling. he is not listening. There must be a You are in power there and you are using the limit for it. Mr. Chatterjee, please continue. Government machinery there. Don't forget thaL We know how you are making money, and we know from where you are getting this money. (Interruptions) PROF. N.G. RANGA (Guntur): Why MP DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please don't you make your point? When Mr. Rood; order. What are the chaftenges you people was speaking, there was no distwbance. are making? What is this? You should not provoke him. 59 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 RepreSlJlltation 60 Ssoond Arndt.) Bill & of Pe0p/9 (Amdt) 8iI

( Interruptions) ( Interruptions)

PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Mr. AN HON. MEMBER: He is the Prime Deputy-Speaker. there was a meeting of the Minister. Speaker with the Leaders of the Opposition and also the leaders of the Congress Party. SHRI N.V.N. SOMU (Madras North): And we had mutuaUy agreed that when the He is also the congress Party President. debate is going on, one can reply in the debate but nobody's speech should be ac- SHRI BASUDEB ACHAAIA (8arkerva): cepted. We had agreed. (Interruptions) He You are influencing the voters by using the was only speaking. You reply afterwards. media. (Interruptions)

PROF. N.G. RANGA: Why do you MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please, provoke him unnecessarily? ' Order.

PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Who SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: is provoking? (Interruptions) Promises galore are made before any elections about different public welfare schemes MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please, to be adopted. Foundation-stones are being Order. laid just on the eve of elections. (Interrup- " tions) SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Sir, although the basic maladies and the distor- AN. HON. MEMBER: It is welfare tions in the electoral system are known, my scheme; why do you object? charge is that except by way of peripheral changes, this Bill does not seek to do away (Interruptions) with any of the infirmities and perversities that have already crept in. That is why. this PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Have Bin will not bring about any qualitative im- we not got the right to criticise the Govern- provement in our electoral system. We look ment? The moment he criticises the Govern- at electoral reforms with a view to strengthen ment, they get up. Why don't you tell them. the democratic rights of the people so that ( Interruptions) there is greater scope of parUamentary democracy in the country, that the urges and MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: When your aspirations of the people of the country can chance comes, you can say. Why are you be articulated through the electoral process disturbing now? and the views and choice of the people can be truty reflected in the result of the elec- SHRI SOMNA1H CHATTERJEE: The tions. I was trying to show that the cannot be muscle power is not even attempted to be reflected unless we adopt a proportional controlled. We welcome inclusion of 'booth representation system of voting. capturing" as an electoral offence. But as Madhav Reddiji has said, no steps have been taken because you have been doing Sir, what is the bane of the Indian elec- that. Where these people are in power, toral system? Take the case of misuse of the booth capturing goes on, and, therefore, official media. Every day we see in the TV, they have no political will to control that. It is how TV is being utilised by the Prime Minis- only for gimmick and nothing else. How the ter for the purpose of Tamil Nadu elections. electoral process can be abused, we have (lnteauptions) seen in Tripura in the last elections; how military was utilised, Army of the country was SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK (Panaji): Are misutilised for the purpose of electoral pros- we discussing Daordarshan? pects of the ruling party in the Centre, we 61 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) R~presentation 62 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill have 58en. We have $8en how the counting lectures and we shall listen to them! (Inter- of votes was totally interfered with in Tripura. ruptions) ( Interruptions) PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Hall MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You answer criticism is unparliamentary, 10U declare it whatever yctU want, when the time comes. as such once for all.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: In SHRI THAMPAN THOMAS (Mav- Ma;lispur Assembly constituency, the CPM elikara): We are hungry. Adjourn for lunch. candidate was declared to have been eleded. SHRI T. 8ASHEER: You are hungry for power. There was a recounting of votes without authority from the Election Commission. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: We Eledion Commission said that "against our have seen how the electorate is sought to be directive recounting has taken place" and influenced and the whole eledoral process somebody, a Congressman, was declared is sought to be interfered with, and it is elected. This is the way the whole process proved by the holding of loan meJas before has been polluted in this country. the eJections. This is something unheard of. They are trying to bribe the voters as the We have seen how killings had taken Prime Minister goes to the State before the place which was utilised for the purpose of elections and promises doles to the people, influencing the voters i the presence of the as he promised in West 8engal to pay Rs. army against my party in the Left Front in 1,000 crores, for various projects in the Tripura. This is the way the electoral system State. Prime Ministe'r is trying to influence has been perverted in this country by the the people with this sort of offer of money. ruling party. What Mr. Ghani Khan Cho- This is the way this ruling party behaved wdhary in doing is West 8engal? (Interrup- itseH and they are talking of electoral reforms tions) Anand Bazar Patrika is not our paper in this country. (Interruptions)

KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE: PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: If you Whose paper i-; it? carry on like this, this weapon can go on both ways. Let us accept that members should be SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: allowed to speak to both the sides and let Nobody in his senses is saying that Anand them reply. Are we expected to praise the 8azar Patrika is our paper. What is being Government? Are we not in the Opposition? said is that he has called upon people to take up guns, swords and sten guns. (Interrup- PROF. N. G. RANGA: Why do you tions) indulge in provoking people?

PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Where PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: We are is your assurance to guide your Members? all sitting in the Opposition. not to praise the Government. It is our duty to oppose the ( Interruptions) Government.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: I am SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: reading from the ~wspaper Anand Bazar Electoral reforms should be brought about Patrika. You read it. He says that Congress comprehensively, not piecemeal as it is in- has to take up the path of intimidating the tended to be done. Proportional representa- people. This is what Shri Ghani Khan Cho- tion.lowering of voting age, State funding of wdhary said. This is their commitment to election, elimination of money power and parliamentary democracy! They will give us muscle power, avoidance of misuse of oHi· 63 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 64 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[Sh. Somnath Chatterjee] sioner in this country. But how they are trying to pervert the system of election in this cial machinery, in particular the mass media, country? We have seen that. It was a very these should be the objectives of reform and sad day for India when one of the Election unless they are achieved, our charge is that Commissioners, on retirement, was given these distortions in the electoral system will the post of Governor of Gujarat State. This is be perpetuated and nothing can be done. nothing but dangling carrots before the Elec· Only one of them has been selected namely, tion Com missioners who are supposed to be reduction of voting age due to the pressure totally independent. How can you expect of public opinion in this country. that the people will have faith in the Election Commissioners when they are hankering tor So far as the other amendments which jobs after retirement and jobs which are have been brought about are concerned, dependent on the mercy and good wished of what has not been done is that there is no the party in power at the Centre? That is why ceiling on expenses by parties over this we have said that we cannot concede to this, election which is being provided in this Bill. apart from the question of finances involved. Sir, Company donations remain totally un- Where is the 9,lIegation that during the elec- controlled. There is a very interesting thing. tions any State Government has interlerred You will find that donations are being made with the election staff; nobody can be trans- by companies but hardly there is any refer- ferred and no action can be taken against ence in this Balance-sheets. Where form them; nobody can be suspended who are they are coming then-I mean the unac- deputed for election work? Without valid counted money? (Interruptions) The one reasons, you want that they are completely important thing which has been provided to under the guidance and control of the Elec- which we have opposed is the concept of tion Commission at the Centre. The Chief deputation of the State Government employ- Electoral Officer also has to carry out the ees and the Police personal to the Election decisions of the Election Commission. Commission; to bring them under the disciplinary control of the Election C0mmis- There is another instance. There was sioner. It has been rightly said by Shri an attempt on the part of the Congress to Madhav Reddy that to whom are we giving stop the Assemb:y elections in the year 1982 them? Can we proceed on the basis that the in West Bengal. They went to the court and Election Commission machinery and its obtained Interim Order whereby the entire executive agency is free from political inter- election process had been stopped. The ference by the ruling party at the matter was fully heard before the Supreme Centre? .. (/nterruptions) Although it has court. Those alleJations were made by Dr. been recommended earlier that this should Siddartha Shankar Ray, Shri Ajit Kumar be a multi-Member body, although our hon. Panja, Shri Bholanath Sen and so many Minister says that under Article 324 of the learned lawyers appeared. What has the constitution, it can be dOrie easily without Supreme Court said? The Supreme Court even bringing about any law, then why it is said that they made allegations against the not being done? Has any explanation been Chief Electoral Officer; they made allega- given? Not a single explanation has been tions against the election staff; they had given. been influ~nced by the party in power in the State. But that was unequivocally rejected Sir, so far as the selection of Election by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court Commissioner is concerned. it is completely held: left to the Executive at the Centre. We have demanded that the selection committee "It is significant that none of the petition- consisting of the Chief Justice of India, the ers has been denied a placed in the Prime Minister and one of the Opposition electoral roll nor were the objections leaders should select the Election Commis- raised by anyone of them dismissed. As 65 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 66 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

we have stated earlier, none of the four be tampered with at the time of voting. The persons who forwarded the omnibus other important point with regard to voting complaints even filed an affidavit in machine is that in the Statement of Objects support of those complaints." and Reasons and the Financial Memoran- dum it is being said that is is to be utilised in Whereas, the Court found their places in the some sensitive constituencies about 150 electoral rOll. Now, I would like to quote what sensitive constituencies. What is this? What the Supreme Court has further said. are the considerations for deciding the sensitive constituencies? What are the guide- I quote: lInes for the Election Commission to decide sensitive constituencies? Sensitive for "We see no substance in the accusation whom? Sensitive from what point of view? that the voters' lists have been rigged by Therefore, we are saying this and we have the election authorities with the help of given amendment to it and if it is taken enumerators belonging to any particu- recourse to, it should be taken recourse to lar political party. Enumerators are every booth in one election. It cannot be mostly drawn from amongst teachers done piecemeal. If it has to be utilised for the and Government servants and it is diffi- Lok Sabha elections, throughout the country cult to imagine that thirty-five years after it should be utilised and constituencies independence, they are totally colour- should not be picked and chosen for the blind. They are the same in every State purpose of introduction of this voting ma- and every constituency. The safeguard chine. lies in the efficiency and impartiality of the higher officers who have to decide Safar as other important spheres which objections filed in relation to the voters' have been totally left untouched are con- lists. That safeguard is not shown to cerned, I charge that this Government is have failed in the instant case." interested in perpetuating the informities and maladies so that they can take advan- And it has held-to save time I am not tage of it. reading-that the Chief Electoral Officer of West Bengal and other election staff officers So far as muscle power is concerned, had scrupulously carried out the directions who does not know how elections are held in of the Election Commission and all the ob- some of the States, where booths are cap- jections that were taken to stop election on tured, where consideration of caste, consid- the plea that voters' list had not been cor- eration of religion, consideration of ethnic rectly prepared were turned down by the communities are being brought to bear and Supreme Court as without any basis and not political and economic considerations without any merits. Now what is this? A sort are raised during the elections. What is of impression is attempted to be created as being done in this law? Nothing is being if there is interference with the electoral staff done to control that. It is a tragedy in this by the State Government. The only object is country that we find leaders of political par- to bring it within the control of the ruling party ties who speak, swear by seCUlarism, going at the Centre because the staff of the Elec- to different religious places just before the tion Commission is under the control of the elections and which is publicised and they ruling party in the Centre. That is why, speak of secularism, they speak of dissoci- through them they want to control now- ating religion from politics and only think of even the disciplinary process. We cannot this at the time of election, only to influence but object strongly to that. voters. Not one provision has been made in this law. Nothing to stop misusE' ofthe official Regarding the voting machine percent machinery. Nothing to stop I.IS6 ct religion we are not objecting to it. But we are yet to 110 during the elections. Nothing to stop use of satisfied that these voting machines cannot caste consideration during the elections. 67 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14.1988 RIi1pIftSMtation 68 Second Arndt.) BI71 & of PeopI#) (Amdt) BiD

[Sh. Somnath Chatterjee] registration relating to grant to symbols. That is already there. There is a principle of recog- Nothing to stop use of muscle power during nition by the Election Commission for the the election. And nothing is being done so purpose of grant of symbols. Then what for that people's will is truly reflected in the this is being included in the law? Nobody results of elections which can only be done knows. by proportional representation and in- troududion of list system. Therefore, these One or two welcome changes are being are mere peripheral changes which are made. We ourselves asked for them. For being made more for the consumption of the example, reduction in the voting age. There people, for the purpose of trying to influence is nothing spectacular in this. We support young people of this country and nothing that. else. So far as other things are concerned. So far as registration of political parties they are merely peripheral. It is not going to is concerned, it is amazing that a law is being bring about any substantial change in the enacted for which no purpose is mentioned. electoral process, it will not improve the Political parties will be registered. But what is polluted system which has been polluted for the effect of registration, nowhere it is said. achieving the narrow partisan political inter- What is the effect of non-registration? No- ests of the party in power. where it is said. So, we do not know, if it is not registered, what are the consequences? I Therefore, we cannot but express our have suggested a simple amendment which strong reservations against the Bills. the Government should readily accept. I have said that no political party will be entitled to registration unless it holds elections SHRI VEERENDRA PATIL (Gulbarga): once in every three years of its office bear- Mr. Deputy Speaker, just now I have heard ers. the views expressed by a senior member Somnathji. We were tola of inner party democracy in the Congress. Mr. Gadgil's concept of Electoral reforms is a subject which is inner party democracy is adhocism, adhoc being hotly discussed at different levels. president, adhoc vice president, adhoc Naturally it has evoked a lot of interest. My committee, adhoc chief ministers, adhoc only appeal to the members on both the minsters, everybody adhoc. This is adhoc sides is to consider the Bills that are under internal democracy' consideration now diSpassionately and not from any political angle. I have not proposed anything revolutionary. Every political party which talks of I am sorry to say that the views ex- democracy, which is shedding crocodile pressed by one or two members so far are tears for democracy should at least follow that they have viewed the Bills purely from the basic principles of inner party democ- their party angle. Whatever we are legislat- racy. Now they don't believe in that. There- ing today-we are not thinking of radical fore Jet them accept my amendment Then, changes in the electoral reforms for the I would like to know from the Minster what is present generation -it is meant for the the purpose of this registration. He may posterity. please explain to us. He may also please explain to us what is the effect of non- Therefore, the r.forms that are under registration. consideration are very important and they should be considered with all seriousness. Merely putting in some provisions will In this Parliament earlier there used to be not not help. already there is a provision for many but a few giants among intenectuals 69 Constitution (Sixty- AGAAHAYANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Rspressntatlon 70 StIcond Arndt.) Bill & of P90pllJ (Amdt.) Bin and parliamentarians. If I can take the our country, I think, in our country, there is names for iIlustration-Acharya Kripalani, scope only for three parties, not more than Shri Mavalankar and I am not sure whether three parties. One is rightistparty, another is Shri H.N. Kunzru was in this House or the leftist party and the third one is centrist party. other House. Those giants have disap- You can say Ieft-of-centre or whatever it is. peared. What I am interested to know is There should be only three parties. So, whether there is any scope-because we when there is scope for only three parties, are discussing about the electoral reforms- how many parties do we have in our coun- for such giants in this House. I had an try? Why should we tolerate so many parties occasion to hear the speeches delivered by when it is not necessary? ' Acharyaji and other eminent personalities. Although they were very vehement in attack- Sir, I am very sorry to say about the ing the Government yet it was a pleasure to tendency among our political leaders. Sup- hear them. Even now I do not say that all the posing a political leader is there. Fortunately giants or aU the eminent parliamentarians or unfortunately. he belongs to a particular have completely disappeared from this caste or a particular community and suppos- House. Even now there are a few, only a ing he develops some differences not on any handful. I do not want to ta'

(Sh. Veerendra Patiq This is the apprehension which is lurking in my mind and I would be failing in my duty if So far as lowering of the voting age is I do not give expression to it. And how best concemed, I do not oppose it. My party has we can avoid that, it is not only for the party already taken a decision. This has been in power to consider, but it is also for the welcomed from all sides. But some appre- parties who are either sitting 0.1 this side or hensions are there. I would be failing in my that side. It is our duty to avoid polluting the duty if I do not give expression to those atmosphere of the educational institutions. apprehensions. I want to say about those Now, I come to frivolous and non-serious voters who are going to be voters now after candidates. In my opinion, such candidates some time. I think, they may be about 45 should be discouraged and whatever facili- million. As I said, we are legislating not for ties are going to be made available to party the present generation. We are legislating candidates today or in future, those facilities for the posterity which is going to be a should not be made available to Independ- permanent piece of legislation on the stat- ent candidates. From my experience I can ute. These voters may be 47 million today. say that independent candidates at the time I don't know how many ale they going to be of election feel that that is a good opportunity after five or ten years. I can say without any to make money. After all by paying Rs. 250. fear of contradiction that you will find 80-90 or Rs. 500 they file nominations in dIfferent per cent of these voters in high schools or in places and naturally other serious candi- colleges. Literacy is not up to our expecta- dates are worried about all that. If the tions. That is a different matter. But that is independent candidate belongs to a particu- the present position. In future, it is not going lar community, and if the serious candidate to be like this. So, you will find a boyar a girl wants to get rid of him, then bargaining will of 18 years either in a high school or in a start. I know of cases where they have junior college. Now, when they are voters, it demanded Rs. five, ten, fifteen or even becomes the duty of every political party to twenty-five thousands in order to withdraw approach that voter wherever he or she is. I their candidature. They make a lot of money quote one instance. Outing 1960s Justice for nothing and they say that the money that Chawla was incharge of Education. He they make at the time of elections, that is came to Karnataka and while addressing the sufficient for them to sustain for another Convocation in one of the University from the election. How to prevent it? I do not want to University Convocation platform, he ex- go into the details; I have some suggestions horted all the political leaders to remain and I want to make those suggestions. away from the educational campuses. He said: ·Please have your activities only out- As Shri Madhav Reddi said, and I en- side the educational campuses. Do not tirely agree with him, once the election come to the educationat campuses; do not process is set in motion, if any independent polute the atmosphere of these institutions candidate dies, then that election should not which are training the future generation of be countermanded. I am telling my experi- our countrY'. ence; in 1984 I contested from my home constituency and after the last date of with- Now, we have to go to the high schools, drawal, I found to my surprise that there was we have to go to the colleges and we have to one candidate who was in the hospital and mobilize all our s~rength and try to attract he was in a very serious condition. Everyday these young boys and girls and see that they in the morning I used to go for canvassing vote for our party. Naturally, politicians will and at night before I retired, I used to contact invade hereafter the educational institu- the dodor in-charge to find out whether that tions; nobody can stop them. The result candidate was going to survive. If he died would be that academic career would get then the eledions would be countermanded, disrupted; high schools, colleges and other and I would have to spend a lot of money; I institutions will become a hotbed of politics. would have to spend four or five times more. 73 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHA YANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Representation 74 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

That would be beyond my capacity. That is cannot contest the election unless he has why in Punjab an Ordinance was issued. I the blessings of tl..,3 people in abundance. request the Minister to look into the matter. People themselves come forward, contrib- That Ordinance lapsed and today there is no ute money and make all sorts of arrange- provision. So,, earnestly appeal to the ments and take the entire re c:Jonsibility. But Government to see that such a provision is these are rare cases and that is why I say made available or accommodated, if it is that in order to djcsourage this, the deposit possibfe. within the existing Bill itself, that is in the case of Parliament should be Rs. if any independent candidate dies during the 20,000 and in the case of Assembly elec- election, then that election should not be tions it should be Rs. 10,000. And if any countermanded. independent candidate contesting the election secures less than 5 per cent of the votes PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: That held in that particular constituency, he means if the party candidate dies, then it should be disqualified for six years. This does not matter. means that he cannot contest other elction also. This will be a very good punishment for SHRI VEERENDRA PATll: I do not him and this will have a very sober effect on mind their countermanding the election but our political system. what about the independent candidate? Sir, I don't want to give the name but the Hon. So, far as the composition of the Member knows very well that even some Commission is concerned, whether it is a cancer patient becomes a candidate for single member Commission or a multi- election. At the time of election it is well member one, there is already a provision. It known that his days are numbered but then is for the Government to take a decision. If he is not responsible for it. The political Government is convinced that the multi- parties or other people who are interested in member Commission is going to be more their prospects do all these things. helpful, they can consider it. But the crucial issue to which I give more importance is that Now, as far as the ballot paper is con- the Election Commission's decision, their cerned, there should be two groups. One findings, should be truly independent. Their group consisting of political party candidates decision should be impartial and unbiased. arranged in the alphabetical order and an- As to how it should be done, I think is a other group consisting of independent can- matter of details. didate arranged in the alphabetical order and it should be arranged after the first So far as the State funding of elections group. Such an arrangement should be is concerned, I am not inclined towards it made. because there are so many difficulties. It is not feasible. Therefore,l am not pleading for Then these independent candidates the State funding of the elections. But J want should not be allowed to contest from more certain facilities to be provided to the candi- than two constituencies. They can contest at dates belonging to the political parties, such the most only from the two constituencies. as, supplying the voters' list, may be one Today the provision is that they can contest dozen or whatever it is, free of cost. Simi- from 30, 40 and 50 constituencies. There is larly, the posters and pamphlets should be no bar at all. supplied free or cost to the candidates belonging to the political parties. Postal facility SHRI S. JAIPAl REDDY: We support should also be provided. If they want to send it. literature from one place to other or if they want to make an appeal to the voters, for this SHRI VEERENDRA PATll: Now, the postal facility should be made available about the security deposit because the elec- to them. The advertisement that so and so .tions have become very costly, a poor man is their candidate, when the election is going 75 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 76 Scond Amdt.) Bill & of Peop/8 (Amdt.) SRI

[Sh. Veerendra Patil) persons with those names have already voted. These cadre based parties manage to take place. who will be their candidate anc everything. They go and sit in front of the what will be the symbol. should be done at voters and they bring them to the polling the cost of the Government. That means the booth and see that within an hour or so, Government should bear the cost of the voting is over. Ultimately, we are left with advertisement. only a very few people who are one hundred per cent with us. The net result of all this is Another most important suggestion that that those who do not have any cadre are the I want to make is that the campaigning worst sufferers in the absence of identity period should be reduced from 21 days to 14 card arrangement. days. We have sufficient experience of elections. I do not want to say all this; but in Even in Pakistan, when elections were the case of certain candidates, one day more held recently, identity cards with photo- means. an additional expenditure of one graphs were insisted upon and it seems that Iakh rupees or two lakh rupees or any only those people with identity cards allowed amount. That is why from th~ day of the last to exercise their franchise. Therefore, what- date for the withdrawal, there should not be ever be the cost, there must be identity cards more than 14 days for campaigning. Today, with photographs. H we are thinking of it is 21 days and sometimes we get so identity .cards exclusively for election pur- disgusted that we really want to disappear poses, I suggest that we may go in for multi- from the scene because everybody looks to purpose identity cards-for rationing and for our pocket only to find out as to how much we various other purposes. Only those voters are carrying. As a matter of fact, carrying a with identity cards should be allowed to bag is a sin at that time. Therefore, it is better exercise their franchise. Then, to a great if the elections are completed as soon as extent, the impersonation, rigging of elec- possible. When the political organisations tions and so on will disappear. Whatever contest the elections, it is possible because may be the cost, this should be imple- these organisations have got the advantage mented. Hthis suggestion is agreed to, we of rank and file, workers and so on who can need not go to the houses of the voters arrange the whole thing. distributing polling chits again and again in case these chits are lost some times. PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: It is a good suggestion. We should be disposed of Therefore, these are a few of my sug- as early as possible. gestions and I feel that we should make thesA provisions in orderto have fair and free SHRI VEERENDRA PATlL: Lastly I elections. I agree with some of the hone come to the introduction of identity cards. members when they said that the Bill is Just now I heard Gadgilp and I must say that inadequate. Nobody can claim that this Bill it is a disappointment. He tried to work out is going to fulfil one hundred per cent the the details and it came to about As. 450 aspirations of the people and the political crares. When I heard it, I thought that some parties. There may be some loopholes and rethi~ is going on somewhere. But I feel there may be some drawbacks. But we can that identity card is a must because of what always sit together and discuss and find a is happening today. If there is no identity way out. This is a continuous process and card, we cannot fight the evil of impersona- exercise. Simply because this Bill has been tion, bogus voting and rigging of elections. brought forward by the Government, I do not The only beneficiaries. in the absence of think it is fair on the part of any of the political identity cards, are the parties which are party leaders here to attribute motives to the cadre based. I tell you an this from my Government. Therefore, in the beginning I experience. By the time our voters go to the made an appeal and I reiterate. that this Bill poling booth, the poling officers say that should be considered, not on party lines, but n Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23. 1910 (SAKA) Representation 78 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill quite dispassionately because the interests and the student power who fought for the of the future generations are very much freedom of the country from the British yoke. linked with these electoral reforms. They also strived hard for building a new India, after independence. THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF COMMERCE (SHRI P.R. Sir, a question was raised as to why. this DAS MUNSI): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I rise to was not brought earlier? I read for at least a support the Constitution (Amendment) Bill week the debate of the Constituent Assem- introduced by our Law Minister Shankaran- bly. At that time what was the Wisdom of tha andji as well as the Amendment of the Members of the Constituent Assembly? At Representation of the People Act concern- that time, a provision came in Article 289-(b) ing the Electoral Reforms. for which there was hardly any discussion. That was regarding age-as to why it was This day will be remembered as one of confiiled to 21 years and why not 18? Pos- the most important days in the history of sibly because it was the view of the leaders India's Parliamentary democracy not be- of the national movement. They thought that cause the voting age will be reduced to 1 8 after the liberation of the country. they will years but certainly because of certain things give India its Constitution first and then to for which both the Opposition and the Ruling have a matured electorate. They wanted to Parties did consider for the last so many lead the young people in a new direction. It years-to bring about some changes in the is because before 15 August, 1947. they electoral process of this country. The debate were fighting the British people. Thereafter was going on in the morning and I was they wanted to make the country fulfil its hearing with great patience the speeches dream. Possibly at that time, it was not made by Shri Madhav Reddi and learned considered thpt important to lower the age Member of the Opposition, Mr. Somnath limit. But certainly Pandit Nehru provided Chatterjee specially as to who should share one room for the Indian students. At that the credit for bringing in this Bill. I think it time, activities of the students' union were would be quite small if you discuss things in declared as legal and Students' Union Ad that manner as to who is going to get the was passed in many parts and the actual credit. Let us think of the country. the aspi- training of the students in the process of rations of the young people and also the parliamentary democracy began right from response of all the political parties of the the student days itself. We have had the country And as a responsible Govemment, pleasure of participating in the students' the Government is also responsible to it. union activities. We have had the occasion to work and launch many programmes and No, Sir, we are observing the Centenary all as to how the country's parliamentary Celebration of PanditJawaharlal Nehru. We democracy should perform. But. unfortu- are observing the Centenary Celebration of nately, the student and youth power could Acharia Kripalani, Sharad Bose-the fa- not get a share or involvement in the entire mous Parliamentarian-and Abdul Kalam process of the elections. except by working Alad. who all identified themselves to the for a candidate or a party, or defending a aspirations of the people of India as well as party or a candidate. But now. after day- who symbolised the aspirations of the youth after-tomorrow when this am is passed, in the beginning of the national liberation young people in India belonging to that age movement. This occasion is a very signIfi- group will not only have that right to vote, but cant one because the voting age is going to a right with the responsibility to create an be reduced. If I may repeat it, this is the India of their dreams. This is not a small or Centenary year of the Martyr of Bengal- minor thing. This is a big thing. This new Khudl Ram Bose who went to gallows at the step is being taken in this House. i.e. of au- of 18 and also Shri Prafulla ehaki. This reposing faith in the Indian youth, during the is a!dnd of salute to the vigour of the youth Centenary Celebrations of Pandit Nehru. 79 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14.1988 Representation 80 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) BiD

[Sh. P.R. Das Munsi) When he was nanged, Government did not even express its concern over that incident, that too when a young man is the Prime from this forum, to say that parliamentary Minister. democracy in Pakistan was being abolished, and that democratic life was over in Pakistan It is not a question of finding out whether and that the Army there was in the streets. the Congress is gaining ground, or the They did not express any concern. Opposition is gaining ground. We have to think over this matter in the context I have Jayaprakash Narayan was trying to spoken about. The question is: why was not help the youth of our country. But the Janata such a Bill brought in earlier? The Opposi- Party Government did not bring the anti- tion friends are sitting there. If I am not defection Bill to cleanse the democratic life in wrong, in 1977, when the Janata Govern- our country. It was Prime Minister Rajiv mentcame to power, behind their coming to Gandhi who had brought in the anti-defec· power was the leadership of Jayaprakash tion Bill. What did you do at that time? Narayan whose main instrument or fighting Where were you? You could have easily against the then Congress Government was , brought that amendment. The masses the student power, the Power of Chhatra would have supported you; the masses Sanghursh Samiti, and the Yuva Sanghursh would have supported the Janata Govern- Samiti or the Nava Nirman movement in ment, if they had brought -the Bill on anti· Gujarat. It is the student power in Gujarat defection. You could also have said: 'We which came out in the streets to pun down the are giving the youth the right to enable them Government of Chimanbhai Patel who, un- to participate in the elections, at the age of 18 fortunately or fortunately, is now the leader years.' But you were all busy seeing whether of the Janata Party in that State. It is the BJP would be with RSS, or ASS would be student power and youth over in Bihar which with BJP. You were busy wondering tried to begin the movement under the lead· whether Raj Narain will stick to Hindi, or ership of Jayaprakash Narayan. What was would become anti-Hindi. You were all busy the dream of JP? His dream was to have in that manner. You tried to run the country total revolution ultimately, and he wanted to against the interests of the youth. You cleanse democracy, stop defedions and exploited the youth in the name of Chhatra provide more rights like the right to work in Sanghursh Samiti; you exploited them in the Constitution, right to vote for young Bihar in the name of the Nava Nirman move- people etc. ment. You gave them ~he commitment, but betrayed them when you came to power. I ask the leaders in the Opposition: where was your wisdom when the Janata That is why you have lost all the moral Party was in power? JP was spending his right to speak for youth. But you do exercise last days, and he died with great sorrow that the right to exploit the youth. On many he was betrayed .by the party which he issues, you could do so. So, what is the point brought into power. How did you repay for in talking about all these things now? If you the massive student power which supported think about these matters, you cannot de- MOrarji's Government? I can refer to one fend yourself, because you had betrayed the incident today. It is a very significant one. youth. If JP had been alive today, he might India has always stood by people c;tll over the not agree with the principles and program- wortd, wherever parliamentary democracy mes of the Congress. That is different. But is functioning; and where it is not, we have at Jeast, as an honest politician, he would expressed our concern that it is not doing so. have said: 'Part of what I had dreamt has Morarjibhai as Prime Minister was sitting on been fulfilled by Rajiv Gandhi's Govern- this side, and we were on that side. At that ment-and not by my friends whom I brought time. in Pakistan, people had a legally to power. That is the history. (Interrup- elected leader called Zulfiqar Ali Shutto. tions) 81 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23.1910 (SAKA) Representation 82 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill The present decision is not a decision of nivance of the police and the party. elections any group or block. But you could easily cannot be held. free and fair, in that State? have brought in this amendment. I thank Mr. Am I wrong? Satyagopal Misra for bringing his Private Member's Bill on this subject. Mr Somnath SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOWDHARY: Chatterjee referred to it. I thank Mr. Misra. I What did they say after the election? congratulate him. But in a parliamentary system, we cannot give credit to individuals. SHRI P.R. DAS MUNSI: Do not say We know that many Members move Bills that. They did not say anything after the and Resolutions and give notice. But there election. Say what they said before the is something called parliamentary luck, i.e. election. I am putting that question. It was the luck of the ballot. Whichever Bill gets Shri Kamal Guha, Forward Block Minister through the ballot, the name of the person and it was Sh,. Debabrata Bosu, ASP Minis- giving it comes to the forefront. It does not ter who appealed to the people,-Mr. Amar mean that the Members whose Bills have not RoypradhRn is sitting in the House, if he has come through the ballot are opposed to this not, he may question me and say what principle. This is precisely the practice. happened in Cooch Behar when Forward However, I congratulate Shri Satyagopal Block was there.-they said that no election Misra for bringing this. I congratulate the can beheld free and fair. Students Federations of India, the Youth Congress, the NSUI who have been fighling KUMARI MAMATA BANNERJEE: Did for the last so many years to include this you mention Shri Narayan Choubey? provision in the Constitution. There is no denying the fact. I am not talkir.g of the SHRI P.R. DAS, MUNSI: I do not like to Students Federation which is now in the mention many names. How was the election streets, I am talking of that f.llindia Students conducted? I will give one instance. If I am Federation which was addressed by Pandit proved to be wrong, I say with authority. I will Jawaharlal Nehru. Till today they speak of resign from this seat and the Government, in , the concept of nationalism. one instant. Only six months before, it t happene( 'nterruptions)

Now, Shri Somnath Chatterjee in his usual manner tried to ridicule the entire elec- PROF. MADHU DANDAVA TE (Ra- toral reforms of ours that it was done in a japur): Once you said that and Mr. Un- manner which is in the interest of a particular nikrishnan had gone into trouble. (Interrup- political party, and all those things. I think tions) Somnathji while he spoke so vehemently, spoke with courage and confidence about all those ma!ters, about the sanctity of elections SHRIS.JAIPALREDDY: Heisgoingto and all those things, quoted the High Court resign already in the privilege matter. (Inter- jUdgement, Supreme Court Judgement, ruptions) what had happened in my home State Ben- gal and all those t!1ings. And I would only SHRI P.R. DAS MUNSI: Mr. Jaipal make this appeal to him. H I am wrong, he Reddy. I am prepared to accept many more can certainly interrupt me. If the Congress privilege issues. I am not afraid. I am not takes an allegation you can certainly find afraid. What I say is that the system is so fault with it. Is it not a fact that two respon- good in that part, that when the election sible Ministers of your own Government in process starts, revision of rolls, no officer is the State belonging to Forward Block and transferred. Nothing happens. RSP on the eve of Panchayat election, made public state/ments that under the leadorship SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: of you and the Chief Minister, with the con- quoted Supreme Court. 83 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 84 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Arndt) Bill

SHRI P.R. DAS MUNSI: Yes, you PROF. MAOHU DANDAVATE: I will do quoted Supreme Court. This judgement was it. given possibly in seven or eight petitions. Now, six months before the Secretary sum- SHRI P.R. DAS MUNSI: In SeoulOlym- mary revision was going on, I am referring to pics there was a provision that the Olympic my constituency, while the revision was Council can examine an athlete if he is found going on, the SOO without any knowledge doped, if he is found to be habitually in the was telegraphically transferred _@_nd a lew habit of taking steroids, he could be stripped SOO was brought in. just to do the wo {. I off. And Ben Johnson was stripped off, after repeatedly toJd that electoral officer. He- told h9 won a medal, on the next day he was me, I I am sorry, I cannot do.' It never stripped off. If there was a kind of commis- happened. It never happened. It frequentl)1 sion to understand how things hand hap- happened and the answer is with the Elec- pened, the left Front Government of West tion Commission. I cannot\blame the Elec- Bengal would have been stripped off next tion Commission. What can they do? They day on how the elections were conducted. have to depend on the requisition of the This is how it was arranged. I appeal to the Government officers. The precise point is, opposition members-I will accept what Mr. today there are free and fair elections. It is Madhu Dandavate will say ... not a question of a party, Congress or CPM. May be, CPM is also still like that in other SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: States. On the day of the election, the They are demanding Imposition of article Superintendent of the Public whether he will 356 in West Bengal. be loyal on that day to the dictates of the State Home Minister or the dictates of the SHRI P.R. DAS MUNSI: J would ask: Election Commission, that is the question. Are the Constitutional provisions anti- That is the precise point. H the Superinten- people or anti-democratic? Is Article 356 dent of Police find that some rigging i~ going outside the Constitution? (Interruptions) In on and the Chief Minister, whether of Con- this very House, Mr. Buta Singh, hone Minis- gress or non-Congress Government, or the ter, while announcing the dissolution of the Home Minister, or the Chief Secretary dic- Punjab Government, made a statement that tates to him, and says, "Do not rush", he will a particular Minister within tl)e Punjab Gov- not rush. ernment or somebody else was hobnobbing with terrorists with arms and, therefore, that SHRI SAIFUOOIN CHOWDHARY: was one of the reasons of dissolution. In the Why wiD he not rush? same manner, I draw your attention to the fact that if a lawful Government openly gives SHRI P.R. DAS MUNSI: He does not. self-loading rifles, SLRs from the police What happened ir.the case of Sultan Singh" barrack and stenguns of the police to the What happened in the case of Sultan Singh? party workers to combat the force ... I am grateful to the Chief Minister, Shri Jyoti Basu, that after having heard me, he trans- SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA(Bankura): ferred the OC after the election. Point blank, How can you say? he says, "We can not help." SHRI P.R. DAS MUNSI: I say it with I do not want to take much time. I will not authority. In Darjeel1ng it happened.. I say, appeal to Congressmen, I appeal only to one if this is found to be wrong, I will resign, Arms Member of the Opposition, Prof. Madhu were recovered by the CPM Dandavate. whateverfi.,dings he will give, I party ... (lnte"uption) And the Minister pub- will accept. Let him tour four districts of licly admitted that yes, they had done that. Bengal and talk to the people how electicns So do not talk of these things. Let us confine are conducted for the last three years. ourselves on this. 85 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Representation 86 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA: What is Jawaharlal Nehru, Sarat Bose. None from your President, Ghani Khan Choudhary, the opposition and the ruling party will ques- openly saying? tion the commitment of these great leaders to socialism, secularism and democracy. " SHRI P.R. CAS MUNSI: I know why you that is so, on this great occasion when this are allergic. Bill is brought and when all the political parties commit to the total concept of the SHRI BASUDEB ACHARlA: Who gave Preamble of the constitution i.e. secularism arms to GNlF? (Interruption) and socialism, if Mr. Madhav Reddy say that he is opposed to it, that means, they will be MR. CHAIRMAN: Please speak on the totally opposed to it. It is not Mr. Madhav Bill. Reddy who says so because Mr. Madhav Reddy is a very nice leader having old SHRI P.R. DAS MUNSI: The important Congress culture. But he is forced to say so provision of this amendment of the People's as Telugu Desam do not believe in secular- Representation Act is the registration of the ism, socialism and democracy. Hwe cannot political parties. "I am not wrong, when the do it, how can Telugu Desam people do it? concept of socialism was embodied in the The concept of socialism will hurt many. We Preamble of the Constitution during Mrs. know it. To them it is difficult, we know that. Gandhi's Prime Ministership, almost all the It will not be difficult to those who believe in opposition accepted that. let us be very it. The leftist parties will not oppose it be- frank and honest. Who will be disturbed by cause they like it, they believe in it. Whether this provision? The provision says that they practise it, that is a different matter. But communal elements, corrupt elements and they believe In it., They will sign and they will such other people should not be there. I register themselves. Only a few righti5t have no idea. Hardly I travelled outside parties who believe more in the words of Bengal in elections. But I had been to Harshman and Khasogi, as published in Allahabad election. In 1977the election was Indian newspapers, for them it will be difficult fought between Janata Party and the Con- to commit themselves to this. Therefore, this gress. Honestly and objectively if we make will give a direction to the poor people of this an assessment and even CPI will agree with country, the parties for which they will vote me on that assessment, Maulanha Bukhari and listen to how much they are committed campaigned in 1977. Hazi Mastan cam- in their memorandum, in their objective paigned in Allahabad. All these campaigns declaration to the basic cause of the country were never encouraged by the Congress but which is espoused by the Constitution of by the opposition. India. Therefore, this registration concept is a revolutionary concept to bind all the polili- AN HON. MEMBER: What about Arun cal parties to come to a common concept Govil? Now, I know the problem of the opposition becau~e that will create a problem for the SHRI P.R. DAS MUNSI: Arun Govil unity of the opposition in the senss that while was a film actor. Raj Babbar was also a film the Government of India recognised Pales- actor. The difference is, one acts which is tine and Mr. Arafat gained strength, it hurt liked by the people and the other is the many in the opposition and they tried to bring husband of a great artist who died mysteri- Moshe Dayan clandestinely in the dark night ously and still it requires to be probed. of Mora~i Desai's Government in Delhi. So they feel that if somehow they come to the The registration of political party con- power, what will happen to them? We know cept is nothing but a total commitment for a who tried to kill the planning conc.ept and enuse which was the basic spirit of the Pre- bring in the rolling plan. We know all these. amble. Now, we are talking ofthe centenary That is why, the so-called concept of unity is of Kripalani" Abul Kalam Azad, Pandit not emerging. Everyday this shade or that 87 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 88 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[Sh. P.R. Das Munsi] symbolised ... (/nterruptions) Yes, he symbolised you must listen please. You did not shade is coming because on the content and support the freedom till 1950, you did not spirit of the Constitution. i.e. secularism, support the parliamentary system till 1952, socialism and democracy, they are still dif- you did not support the Indo-Soviet Treaty till fering. 1971, you did not support the Indian crisis in 1962. So, what Congress speaks today, I will conclude by saying two other Marxists will speak tomorrow. That is their points. Mr. Somnath Chatterjee said that it IS system in this country ... (Interruptions). You the ruling party which wil! be the hight:>t have no moral right. It is nice that you are in beneficiary to get grants, donations from big Parliament. Mr. Chairman, Sir, it is this party business anc all these things. Mr. Somnc1th which adopted the document that let us be Chatterjee must be remembering that at that within the democracy to subvert the time when t.1r. Jyotirmoy Bose was their Constitution from within. It was their con- leader, I personaliy tabled at my respons. !II- cept, not the concept of the people, and still ity the receipt of the amount received by the they are holding that concept. So, from the Community Party (Marxist) from Mr. B.M. Marxists whose party called CPI(M) was Birla and Mr. B.K. Birla. At that time, I had born in India in 1963 or 1964, we should not submitted the receipt as to how much money learn what is parliamentary democracy; we CPM collected from Birla House for their should learn from them what is booth captur- party funds. ing, we should learn from them what is rigging, what is high-tech collection ... (Inter- SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHARY: ruptions) You look back at your Who gave you the receipt? record ... (/nterruptions)

Mr. Chairman, Sir, I have not levelled SHRI P.R. DAS MUNSl: Yes, I submit- any accusations against the Marxist Party ted the receipt. It was a vlary interesting about corruption or anything. All these are receipt. The receipt does not say the levelled by the former RSP Minister as to amount. I have interpreted the receipt - how corrupt they are, how bad they are, how BMB and a big ga;> and then interrogation they are killing the democracy in the State. marie The counterfoil was kept by the party. Therefore, I would appeal to the han. Mem- I was in ths opposition. The only difference bers of the Opposition to rethink the whole of the Marxist Party is that the Marxist Party thing and to support wholeheartedly and to does not believe in small donations of the stand by the amendments of the private individual companies. They believe, Constitution and the amendment of the Elec- let the treasury be looted in Calcutta, Alipore toral Reforms Act so that the young people of and no enquiry. let the tram company - the this country feel that they are not hypocrite, British people and the Indian monopoly - they are not exploiter, who are using them in get the proportionate amount that was the streets and saying something in the settled from the Government exchequer. House. The gas turbine is brought from abroad without quotations and in this way they collect the money. They feel this is the much more PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE (Ra- easier way of collecting money than to col- japur): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I will now come to teet from individuals or from companies. the discussion of the Bill. For the last sixteen This tactic I say, is the new method, the years, apart from participating in the debate modernised method of collection in their on electorat reforms in this House, I have system. It is a high-tech collection. There- initiated a discussion on electoral reforms at fore, I support both the Constitution Amend- least five to six times. The person who initi- ment 81. 'J ..saluting the concept and the vigour ated debate was the same, only the person and the wisdom of the Prime Minister who who replied was changing. 89 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHA YANA 23. 1910 (SAKA) Representation 90 Second Amdt.) BiJI & of People (Amdt) BiD SHRJ SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: In Election Commissioner on his own request course of reply. even he may be changed. and also various suggestions that had been made to the experts of the electoral reform, PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Every to Shri Shankaranand, and the Opposition time I got a very favourate reply from the parties had made these suggestions, it was concer~d Minister that the matter is under expected that you will take cognisance of a consideratipn. the matter is under active very constructive step on a nu mber of issues consideration and ultimately Prime Minister on which Congress and Opposition also gave me the reply that the matter has been agreed, the Chief Election Commissioner lefl to a Cabinet Sub-Committee. had also agreed and we expected that on the basis of such voluminous materials that are First I want to point out to you that as far available to you, a more comprehensive Bill as the eighteen years limit is concerned, I do would be available. I would only make one not think there will be any controversy at all, request at the outset and the request is that but as far as the other Bill is concerned, really after adoption of this Bill, oon't give up the it IS the scope of the Bill that is important to efforts of bringing in at a later stage a com- us. We have been demanding fundamental prehensive Bill on electoral reforms on ba~ic electoral reforms. When some per- which you will find a lot of consensus in this sons, infected by Jaw and order situation, go House and unless you are able to touch the to the Government and demand that some basic problems and not touch only the fringe measure should be taken to prevent and and pheripheral problems, you will not be check dacoity and robbery and if the Govern- able to achieve the results at all. ment comes forward with the device to check only pick-pocketIng, one cannot oppose As far as the age of 18 years is con- that, but one would say that we are demand- cerned, I myseH' had moved a Bill in this ing steps to prevent robbery and gangster- House. Various Youth Organisations be- ism and yOIJ are only tinkering with the prob- longing to Congress and Opposition have all lem by bringing a measure to check pick- been saying that youngsters in this country pocketing. So, really that is the basic prob- should be put a little more faith and therefore lem. They have taken up peripheral issues. 10 States in this country-West Bengal, Here, I would like to draw the attention of the Tripura, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh. Kerala new Law Minister that so long as, in the last and other States and of course Gujarat and several years, there is so much material Himachal Pradesh-have already intro- available, so much material has been placed duced the limit of 18 years for voting at the at your disposal both by the Opposition and local body elections. They have no right 10 by the various Committees appointed by touch Assembly and Lok Sabha elections. your Government that on the basis of the That was already done and there was a substantial material, we expected no such a clamour. I am glad that ultimately at long last Bill which is just a window dressing. but a this has been accepted and there is no more basic Bill touching the fundamentals of controversy. So, I do not think that this the problem of the electoral reform. Sir, House will be divided at all on this. Even the starting with the report of the Committee on old men agree that the young must get vote Defection headed by Shri Y.B. Chavan, and therefore there is no problem. Though strangely enough because later on he also we are not young; we were at least ex-youth defected, then reports on the proposed and we ha~e respect for them and there will amendments to the Election laws, then the be no difference of opinion as far as vote for reports on Tharkunde Committee of elec- youth of 18 years is concerned. toral reforms set up by the late Shri Jayaprakash Narayan, then suggestions Now, , would like to point out at the very were made by the Chief EIsction Commis- beginning and I hope our hon. Minister wiD sioner, Shri Shakdher and the suggestions take note of that. He is an-old friend of ours made by the Opposition parties to the Chief in common educational institutions with 91 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 92 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill

[Prof. Madhu Dandavate] concerned State Governments: Already a problem was created in Garhwal and hats off which we were associated, that too with Dr. to the then Chief Election CommiSSioner, he Ambedkar. Mr. Gadgil told that Dr. Am- sent an observer and when the observer bedkar gave the right to vote and Shri sent the telegram from the adjoining State, i~ Shankaranand will be giving the right to vote such a large number para-military forces to the youth. I am embarrassing you, Mr. had been inducted into Garhwal that they Shankaranand. I would say that don't stop at were likely to overawe the voters he that. Try to read Dr. Ambedkar once again cancelled the elections and postponed what he said in the Constituent Assembly them. So, that issue has to be there, it has and you will find that a number of warnings not been tackled. and signals he had given in the Constituent Assembly which you have not taken note of Independent machinery of the Election today. But I am sure at least Mr. Shankaran- Commission including the method of ap- and will be able to take note of this now. Sir, pointment: I do not want the monopoly of we find in this Bill which is only a flimsy Bill, appointment to be held by the Government a lot of issues which are already excluded on and J would suggest a three-man Committee which we have given concrete suggestions. consisting of the Prime Minister of the coun- In regard to State funding of elections, I will try whoever might be-just now Shri Rajiv come to that in detail later. In regard to Gandhi is there, in 1990 some one else, but change in the electoral system to remove the whatever he may be, the Prime Minister of wide disparity between the votes secured the country, then the Chief Justice of India and the seats won, I am not saYing anything and thirdly, a representative e:lected or because sometimes Congress had suffered nominated by the Opposition. If there is an when we came to power and we suffer when official leader of the Opposition, he will be the Congress came to power and the country there, otherwise a representative nominated has suffered when everything happened. by the entire OppOSition, and they should Therefore, as a result of that this also has not have the right to recommend the nomination changed. of the Chief Election Commission machinery which has to be essentially a multi-member Then, ending the monopoly of TV and machinery for which there IS already a provi- radio. Nowadays whenever we switch on the sion in the Constitution. I think they can radio and television, we find that such a rightly justify that there IS no need of making partisan performance is there. any constitutional provision because already the provision is there, all that is 14.35 hrs. needed is an Executive Order as far as the multi-member machinery is concerned. But [MR. SPEAKER in the Chailj as far as the other machinery is concerned, you should made a statutory provision there. Welcome, Mr. Speaker. The Prime Minister, the Chief Justice of India and a representative of the Opposition- MR. SPEAKER: What happened? they should recommend what should be the structure and the membership of the multi- PROf. MADHU DANDAVATE: 1 wel- member machinery. come you, Sir. Nothing unparliamentary, Sir. Then, misuses of the places of religious Sir, I say that as far as the monopoly of worship. I am coming to that. Particularly TV and Radio is concerned, that has to be you, Sir, will be very happy at the amend- changed. ment which J am moving and if only you have to vote, my amendment would be carried. Preventing the deployment of para-mili- But hecalise the entire House has to vote, I tary forces without the concurrence of the am afraid what will happen to the amend- 93 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAY ANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Representation 94 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill ment. said: 'Do you realise now with whose ballot paper you have come? You are voting in my Then the multi-purpose identity cards. name.' Such type of impersonations are Sir, at this stage I will give you a very interest- going on and therefore, for that multi1)Ur- ing insl,ance that has happened in Bihar. I full pose identity card is absolutely necesSary agree with Mr. Veerendra Patil, he is not there. If the identify card is not there, what Sir, about disparity between votes·and happens? I won~t name him, he will name seats, rest assured that this is not a question hil11, .but there is one Electoral Officer from of Congress or non-Congress because Bihar who to\d me, on one occasion one there are various States where non-Con- person voted 6-7 times. That man has retired gress governments are there. At the Centre now. He used to clean hIS ink and come in 19n we were in power, at that time you back. He voted seven times. suffered as a result of this disparity. Next time if we are likely to be in power, you may MR. SPEAKER: I had gor.e through suffer as a result of this disparity. So, you win Tiponil's biography and he said that 'in my find that this disparity is going to hit every State it used to be like this. People will just Member of Parliament and every Member of vote, once more or twice or 10 or 12 times. the Legislature. I will not give the entire This practice existed ... tabulation. But I will give from 1952 to 1971 because in 1971, there was consolidation PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: We are and that matter was different. In 1952, Con- emulating that practice. gress got 45% votes and secured 75% seats. The OPP9sition got 55% votes and got MR. SPEAKER: No, no. We must eradi- 25% seats. In 1971, Congress got 43% cate that. votes, secured 57% seats. The Opposition got 56% votes and got 32% seats. As a result PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: That is of that, some sort of remedy is to be found right. So, when he came for voting ... out.

SHRr DINESH GOSWAMI (Guwahati): I was carefully listening to the ne~: Did you come to occupy the Chairto point out expert on electoral reforms, Shri Gadgil. this to Mr. Dandavate and the House? MR. SPEAKER: What is in 19n? MR. SPEAKER: I didn't know; I am not that soothsayer! PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: In 19n also, the position was same. I was pointing it ( Interruptions) out. whether we are in power or you are in' power, everybody is likely to suffer. That is PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Listen why, I am insisting on that. to me, Mr. Speaker. For the eighth time when that young man came for voting, then that I was listening to Mr. Gadgil very care- officer said, 'Get out'. Then that man said, fully. He made one argument, that if it is 'Sir, I have voted seven times and why you purely a list system, replacing our present object now?' He said, 'You, young man, do system. in that case, it is the bosses of the you realise now for whom you are voting? party who will select the list and to that You are voting for the Chief Justice of Bihar extent. there will be erosion of democracy. State 'and then, he was driven away. Therefore taking hint from his constructive suggestion, f would like to strike a balance On another occasion when one voted between the two extremes. In the present five times and when he came for the sixth system, Hthose who get 51 % votes run away time, that boy complained. 'Why are you with the entire cake and if anybody who has preventing me? I have done it five times.' He got 49% votes and that 49% of votes is no 95 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 96 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[Prof. Madhu Dandavate] There are many experts in the country. When I speak about the experts, it is not the use, I want some sort of balance. About how elites only. You have basic interest in the the membership of Parliament should come farmers' problem. You must have seen on the basis of the existing system of voting, people who have not tal

the opposition party, if people are interested Bill, for superintendence of the work of the in the information, and in knowing the facts, Election and the conduct of the elections by then the autonomous corporation has to the Election Commission, the machinery is cater to the needs of both the parties. such that deputationists have been provided for. Here my concrete suggestion is, we will There is no provision at all for deploy- be all in favour of allowing the election ment of para-military forces. I told you that in machinery to control the election machinery Garhwal when a large number of para-mili- in the States and also other machinery pr0- tary forces were inducted, then the Chief vided that Election Commission is assisted Election Commissioner was able to say that in becoming really independent. Because if it has to be withdraw and, therefore, I would the Election Commission-I am not casting demand and Shri Shankaranandji can take any aspersions; so, don't rule it out--what I note of that at a later stage in a more compre- am saying is, if the Election Commission has hensive way-in fact, I had already given an the power to supervise the conduct of the amendment but generally amendment is elections in various States and, at the same something which is always lost if it is moved time, the election machinery is so divised by the Opposition-and, therefore, antici- that it becomes an instrument in the hands of pating the defeat of my amendment-I the Central Government, in that case, with would suggest that in the comprehensive one hand, they are giving power to the Elec- legislation that you will be bringing, at least tion Commission and with the other hand, it make a provision, that even if the Chief is transferred from the Election Commission Election Commissioner requires the deploy- to the Government. It will mean only nation- ment of paramilitary forces in a Constitu- alisation of the Election Commission at the ency, that cannot be done unless there is a hands of the C,entral Government. I do not concurrence of the concerned State want that to happen and, therefore, I want Governments and I am sure that you will that independence of the machinery of the plead for it. I am sure that on the basis of the Election Commission should be maintained. experience in the State, people will give the You have set up a pattern in the lok Sabha advice. We have,-for instance, the advan- The other day, when we congratulated the tage of Shri S.B. Chavan coming over here. Secretariat of the lok Sabha. every Member from the Congress as well as the Opposition MR. SPEAKER: I say that Garhwal said that starting from Shri Vithalbhai Patel election was negatiVed. very fine traditions have been built up, that lok Sabha Secretariat Staff are no more the PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: It was staff of the Central Secretariat which is postponed. opposite the Parliament House. If they find that even the Government staff have MR. SPEAKER: That was cancelled. bungled; for instance, if the staff feel that That was done on the suggestion of the when certain Question material is to be given Election Commission. But, if you again say to the Minister and some staff from outside that the forces cannot be sent without the try to tamper with it, today they can resist it. consent of the States, would it not curtail the Therefore, the independence can be maln- authority of the Commission? tain~d in the Lok Sabha Secretariat. I want the tradition of Lok Sabha Secretariat to be PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: For maintained in the machinery of the Election that, the norms have to be laid that if it is to Commission also, so that the Election be deployed, under what conditions. If that is Commission will never become a hand-maid done, that will be a good thing. of the Government.

As far as the independence of the Elec- Sir, in the morning, none o~ us was tion Commission is concerned, I have con- casting aspersions on the Election Commis- crete suggestions. In Clause 2 of the prese nt sion. All that we were saying was that when, 99 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 100 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Arndt) BiI

[Prof. Madhu Dandavate] [ Translation] ever it is convenient they avoid by-elections; SHRt BALKAVI BAtRAGI'(Mandsaur): whenever it is convenient they force the by- When Madhu Bhaiya is pleased with you. elections. If t-hat happens and if that freedom one can see him in his usual quality of Madhu is given to the Government, they make the (honey) but when he is annoyed he turns into recommendations:they point out certain law a honeybee. and order difficulties, they manipulate results and as a result of that, on the basis of MR. SPEAKER: Honeybee bite is also the nata suggested aAd recommendations sweet. made-the Election Commission is the best at heart, but. unfortunately, faced with the [English] practical proposition ... PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Sir, as MR. SPEAKER: Now I find that you are far as registration is concerned, the manner saying the same thing in an orderry manner in which the registration Clause had been and accotding to the rules and am allowing I framed. 4do not know whether Shri Shanl_

PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: At a PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Sir. are later stage, you did accept that I had given a you allowing Lobbying inside the House? formal Motion. Only you have that power to ( Interruptions) rule out that Motion. That is the only thing you did. MR. SPEAKER: Something is happen- ( Interruptions) ing there.

MR. SPEAKER: You have given me the SHRI S. JrJPAl REDDY: They are so rules. If it is outside the rules, I rule out. engrossed. They didn't even see your fin- ( Interruptions) gers pointing towards them.(lnterruptions)

PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: My contention was that my Motion was in order PROF 'MADHU DANDAVATE: As a and your ruHng was out of order. former External Affairs Minister, all his affairs should be external and not internal. MR. SPEAKER: My ruling was also in When he is talking to Sheilaji , t have to make order. this comment. (Interruptions) 101 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 102 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill MR. SPeAKER: Is it like some Doctors has to be simplified. The refbre, we gave who treat internally and some who treat allegiance to the Constitution. And of externally? course, the later part is very important. Uook oath that I will uphold the sovereignty, unity ( Interruptions) and integrity of India. I would suggest without meaning anything ill, to the Minister con- PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: So cerned nottotry to have allthe elaboration of mafly times, portfolios were changed. Some what is contamed in the Constitution. mistakes might have happened ... ( Interruptions) SHRI THAMPAN THOMAS: It is propaganda. I come to the subject now. Take for instanoe, page 5 of this Bill. I have given PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: t don't separate amendment. I· know the fate. allege that. He is not a propagandist. Have Therefore, I am saying earlier. On page 5, only that much portion saying that specific Sub-Clause 5 in the original Clause 29-A - I provision that an association or a body shall am sorry for sticking to the Bill while discus- bear true faith and allegiance to the sion it here - it is said.: Constitution of India as by law established and would uphold the sovereignty, unity and "The application under sub-section (4) integrity of India." When you say that, every- shall be accompanies by a copy of the thing of Preamble comes, Fundamental memorandum or rules and regulations Rights come, even the future amendments of the association or body, by whatever which you are likely to make even that name called, and such memorandum or comes, everything comes. Therefore, I say, rules and regulations shall contain a you don't go on' spelling out secularism, specific provision that the association or principles of socialism because when you body shall bear true faith and allegiance say prinCiples of socialism, even those who to the Constitution of India as by law had the revolution in 1917 in the Soviet established and to the principles of Russia, Mr. Gorbachev today talks in terms socialism. secularism and democracy. of Perestroika and Glasnost. So the concept and would uphold the secularism and in 1988 is different from 1977. I am happy democracy. and would uphold the sov- that they are moving in a forward direction. ereignty, unity and integrity of India... : Even on principles of socialism, there can be difference of opinion, there can be different I wish to draw your attention that when I got manifestations. Thereforethat has also to be elected to this House and I took my oath in noted. front of your - I am sorry, oath was taken before Babuji. he was the Protem Speaker, When I took oath - no aspersions on you it I am suggesting something about which had to be done: you were not elected at that you will have no difference at all. We have time- actually accepted in this House - the Bill has been converted into Act - that is, the Relig- ious Institutions (Prevention of Misuses) Act. I did not dwell with all the details that I That is already adopted by this House. shall protect and defend the Constitution, its Whether one is a Hindu or a Muslim or a Sikh Directive Principles, then its concept of or a Christian, I do not want anyone to social economic equality and also the pro- misuse the place of worship at all. I do not grammes enunciated and Part III that is, the want any nefarious activities to be carried Fundamental Rights. If I were to take an oath either from the temple or from the mosque or like that, you would have said: "better don't from the church or from gurdwara... take oath al"d go out of Parliament." Don't have such a is'r';,:thy oath at all because oath MR. SPEAKER: Or even from outside 103 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 104 Second Arndt.) SRI & of People (Amdt.) Bill

PROF. MADHU DANOAVATE: Orfrom candidates saying that though there is no outside. statutory provision, you must submit your returns and you will not be allotted a symbol MR. SPEAKER: Any religious platform. unless you give a statement of assets and liabilities. We publish them. Suppose we PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: I do not have provisions of submitting it later on. want immunity even to the Parliament. When that is submitted and the Court of Law says that that is fals9- not only wrong but MR. SPEAKER: Yes. false- I think that should be considered as a disqualification for six years. rthink this is not PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: There- my original contribution; its creative original- fore, every temple including the temple of ity belongs to my friend Mr. Jaipal Reddy. He democracy which is the Parliament over has suggested that. Only because he has which you are presiding ... suggested, don't reject it.

MR. SPEAKER: I won't allow that. 15.00- hrs.

PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: We will MR. SPEAKER: If I had suggested it not give you opportunity to do that. There- earlier, then? fore, I have also moved one important amendment in which I have specifically said PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: It would that as far as violation of Section 7 of the be wonderful. Then they would be forced to Religious Institutions (Prevention of Mis- accept that. uses) Act. 1988 is concerned, that also should be drawn as one of the grounds for PROF. P.J. KURIEN (Idukki): He is not disqualification. If I find that I belong to the supposed to take brief from others. Janata Party but I utilise the temple for nefarious activity, for subversive activity I PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Inside IJse church, I use gurdwara,l use mosque, in the House I am allowed. I cannot take hints that case, I shall be subjected to disqualifica- from my home; but from the House I can. tion for six years. That doesn't mean that after six years I can continue that. As far as the identity cards are concerned, from the experience of Bihar I told' MR. SPEAKER: I support whole-heart- you, multi-purpose identity cards should be edly this proposal. introduced.

PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Thank ycu Sir, He has supported it, please accept As far as the Bill concerned, it is so . my amendment. limited. But some of the provisions which are excluded, if they are accepted, I will tell you MR. SPEAKER: You must accept it. what will be the result and the by-product. Take for instance the question of State fund- PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: That is ing of elections. Mr. Gadgil not being a the aspect that I wanted to bring. Finance Minister has talked about finance. Really what Mr. S. B. Chavan ought to have One more thing on which House will not said, unfortunately Mr. Gadgil has said -that be divided because it doesn't concern par- how much money will have to be paid. Mr. ties is that very often we submit our returns. Gadgil, you will not have to pay this, it is Mr. There is no statutory provision that when we S. B. Chavan who has to pay this. When he me our nomination, a statement of assets IS remaining quiet on that issue, I would like and liabilities should be made. In Maharash- you too to remain quiet. If State funding of tra in 19n, we mac 3 it compulsory for our elections is there, there are two advantages. 105 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHA YANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Representation 106 Second.Arndt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

It has been provided in the case of West In West Germany it has happened. Germany that what Mr. Gadgil has said is There were a large number of political par- wrong. Hthere is a subvention by thl3 Central ties. But the moment the Federal Govern- Government to the candidates, some people ment started giving subvention to the pol!ti- are taking for granted that there will be a cal parties which have secured more than a large number of independents and party minimum percentage of votes, the small candidates ad therefore the expenditure splinter groups started saying that in our would be large. That is why my concrete and entire life time and even after rebirth we are constructive suggestion to Mr. Shankaran- not likely to get this percentage and there- and is that he should not give the subvention fore let us join hands with the SPO, let us indiscriminately. let him discuss the matter merge in the Christian Democratic Union,let with the Leader of the Opposition and the us merge with the Communist Party and like leader of the House, make a statutory pro- that the parties merged. Today basically vision as to which are the candidates who there are only three major parties in West will get the assistance from the Centre and Germany. only those candidates who in the previous .election have secured more than a certain Here, Mr. Shankaranand, your own minimum percentage of votes -I mean their colleague Mr. Veerendra Patil has sug- parties - parties which have secured a gested that something constructive should certain minimum prescribed percentage of be done, have a proposal to do some family votes, only they will be entitled for assis- planning of the parties. Population will take tance. care of itself afterwards. What is needed is the family pianning of the political parties; not MR. SPEAKER: But what happens if by compUlsion, not by law, but if we have they spend in addition to that? subvention ~ven only to the parties securing more than a certain'minimum percentage of PROF. MADHU OANOAVATE: I am votes, the small splinter parties will merge, coming to that; I have antiCipated that point, then the number of parties will be reduced Sir. and that will also help in reducing the disparity between the votes and seats because If that is done, what is the advantage? Opposition parties are split in a number of There are small splinter groups. They are ways. individual oriented - whether they !)eing to the Congress or the Opposition, the same Therefore, the sixty per cent votes are disease is there. In the Congress also there spread into a number of boxes That also can have been Congress (0) , Congress (I) , be avoided. Congress (J), Congress (U); then Urs goes and Sharad comes and Congress (S) -like AN HON. MEMBER: What about the that whatever be the name, their surname is independents? Congress and whatever be their name, the surname is Janata. PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE:No, no, independents cannot claim. There are cer- If that situation arises and sma" splinter tain advantages that can accrue only to the groups are formed, once you say that on the organised political parties. For instance, can basis of percentage of votes secured by the independents complain, "Organised political parties in the previous elections you will give parties have one syr,lbol reserved for them; assistance, the tendency of small splinter you also reserve for all the independents parties will be that, rather than running a different symbols?" We can't do it. If you small party, it is better to merge in the main- have your independent candidature, you are stream national party which is nearest to me not able to get the advantage of reserved ideologically and won't carry the banner in symbol. If you organise a political party, you the name of an individual leader. get the reserved symbol. Similarly, you or- 107 Constitution (Sixty- . DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 108 Second Amdt.) Bill & o_~ People (Arndt) Bill

[Prof. Madhu Dandavate] .the point. So, as a last r~sort. evan 4f it cOmes to dual funding, doesn't matter. But some ganise a political party and get more than a rock-botton minimum will be availubla to us. certain percentage of votes. In that case, you Tata and Birlamight have millipns ot-money. are entitled to subvention. But I tell you, frtends, Mr. Veerendra PatH or Mr. Gadgil was right. rh Bombay, Tata Madam, in the end, I will touch that point contested. He was defeated Birla con- which Shri Gadgil raised and the query came tested. He was defeated. Pataudi contested. from the Speaker, When Speaker makes the He was defeated. So many industrialists, queries, even if the time is over. I must most of them lost. Of cours,e, if they get the clarify. Therefore, I will clanfy this point. patron~ge of the political party, that is differ- Speaker Sahib raised the questlo'l. What ent. Hut when they stand on their own, they will happen about the amount to be paid to lose. The common electorate in this country those in addition to whatever is done by the have not preferred industrialists. They have State. The best position would be that if not preferred Maharajahs. Therefore, ram State funding of elections takes place, in that not at all worned. I have full confidence case, there can be only one channel of because I feel that the electorate in this funding. All others will be treated as illegal. If country might not be having a doctor~te. He it is not detected, nothing can happen. So might not be M.A. He might not be B.A. He many commissions are taken without being might not be educated. I have seen the detected. One cannot do anything. But if it is educated who are politically ignorant. And I detected and it is proved - sometimes hig" have seen the uneducated who are politi- dignitaries admit that they have taken a cally conscious. In thiS land of Gandhi, vari- commission but for a good cause - if the ous struggles, that Gandhi had raised, gen- proof is available, in that case, that sho:Jld be erated a new wave. Those who participated treated an illegality and further subventions In the Dandi March and devoted themselves should be stopped. A Jot of amount shall be to political work, later on, as full tune party given afterwards. Then, that candidate wi!! VJorkers or full-time social workers, their realise: I unnecessarily took additiona: political consciousness was far better than money while the State Government money the political consciousness of those who is lost. And, therefore only one channel. But have taken Doctorate and B.Sc. in the uni- even if thattakes time the question is, people versity and claimed political understanding like us - who have meagre means - con- and consciousness. Such a dichotomy we test the elections. have seen. Therefore, I would request hon. Minister to take cognisance of all these I come from a constituency where suggestions which I have made. If we spoke seven consecutive times - whatever be the out here and we make constructive sugges- way - we have won. That's why I said that tions, it IS not with a view to have some voters has a commonsense. We have won exercise for our throats. At 12 o'clock, you seven times with least expenditure. But the give enough exercise to us What we want is, expenditure is going up. Now, to persons like we have studied the problem. We have stud- us - even Tata or Birla in addition to State ied the entire system. We have suggested funding through the Congress get some electoral reforms. The Tarakunde Commit- more proceeds, it does not matter - should tee has suggested; Chavan Comnllttee I~ac; have the bare minimum. For instance, some suggested; even your own Committee t,as are living below the poverty line. If they are suggested something; Gadgil ji also pro- lifted at least above the poverty line, then we duced that green document. So, you take can survive. Let others remain in the palatial cognizance of all that. Our dlfficu Ity, Madam, houses and spend millions of money from is that a number of issues which we wanted their pockets. Even if we are able to survive to push, this gentleman, sorry for my .c~lIing above the poverty line, we will be able to him gentleman, I meant the Hon. Minister, succeed in the elections. Therefore, that is has picked up only certain clauses from the 109 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23.1910 (SAKA) Representation 110 Second Amdt) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill principal Ad. Now, our liberty is restricted. If and the hope of the youth in particular has any measures or reforms are to be sug- also risen. On the political scene this was gested, they have to be within the parame- one expectation which was there in the ters and framework of only the clauses that hearts and minds of the younger people and he has touched and he has deliberately not today that expectation, the expectation to touched the clauses on which we want lower the voting age from 21 years to 18 amendments. Therefore, that being our dif- years, is being fulfilled. This has been the ficulty, we have said. everything in our demand of the Youth Cpngr~ss and the speeches and whatever amendments are NUSI throughout the Country for the last permissible, we have pvt theine more than a decade. Today thiS demand of the Youth Congress and NUS' is reflected in I would like to say to Shankaranand Ji the amendment which has been brought. that on the question of electoral raforms, do not debar ahy amendment 'in this House. This amendment has also reflected one Whatever is acceptable, let us accept it. mor:e important thing. This has reflected the Whatever amendments we are suggesting determination of the Prime Minister to in- to strengthen even the limited measures that volve the younger generation in the demo- you have suggested, you accept them. Only cratIC system. This has also reflected his because it has come fro"1 Somnathji or determination to involve the younger gen- Madhu Oandavate or Madhav Reddy or eration to stre!1gthen the democratic system Jaipal Reddy, it has to be rejected. Don't of the country. This has atso reflected that reject them. Som~ of them are qualified to be the Prime Minister wants that younger gen- accepted when they are recommended eve eration should play more responsible and an by the Speaker, so, you accept them. What- important Tole in building the country's fur- ever You cannot, for God's sake and for our ther. This has fllso reflected that the Prime sake also - does not matter even if you do Minister has got tremendous confidence and not 'do it for God's sake but for our sake - faith in the younger generation. you bring a more comprehensive legislation at a later stage so that whatever suggestions Today I am happy that a lot many various veterans have made in the last 20 people, a lot many political parties and a lot years will not go wasted and they will not many leaders from the Opposition have have to say in the heaven that all our sugges- joined their voice to say that this was their tions were a waste in the Parliament, and demand and their demand is being accepted nobody took congnizance of them. So, you by the Congress party; their demand being take congnizance of them and I would pref- accepted by the Prime Minister of India. lam erably say that before you quit, if you com- happy that at least today they are saying this. plete the task, it will be appreciated. But what happened in 1977 when they in their election manifesto had told the youth of the country that when they will come power, SHRI MUKUl WASNIK (Buldhana): if they come to power. they will lower the Madam, Chairperson, I rise to support the voting age from 21 to 18 years. The younger amendment moved to Article 326 and the generation of the country had confidence in Representation of the Peoples Act. This has the Janata Party at that time and they be- been a long awaited Act and I am very happy lieved them. But what had happened? A little that today in this Parliament we are discuss- later, they came to realise that they were ing it and we are making an attempt to pess fooled and their expectations were belied on a very important responsibility on the because the promise given In the Janata younger generatiOn of the country. Party's manifesto was not fulfilled. So, Since 1980 the younger generation throughout the Madam, Chairperson, since the day the country has never again try to believe the Prime Minister has risen on the political Janata Party or the new Janata Oal, what- scene of the country, the hope of the nation ever be the name old wine in the new bottle. 111 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 112 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) BiN

[Sh. Mukul Wasnik] political parties must owe allegiance to the Constitution of India and to the princIPles of Madam I really congratulate all those socialism and secularism. Why are they young people who are in the age group of 18 shying away from this provision Why are to 21 years, who will be getting their right to they afraid of it? This type of an amendment vote after this Bill is passed. is definitely required because in the past few years, we have seen that there has been a There are certain other important things growth of communical organisations and which have come for discussion today as secessionist organisations and these organ- part of the electoral reforms. Our experience isations in some place or the other my some has shown that the election system is work- way or the other are trying to enter the ing quite effectively and our experience has political arena and thereby trying 0 destroy also shown that the Election Commission the very social and political fabric of this which is now a one-man-commission has to country. Therefore. it is very much essential be improved further to make the election that measures should be taken to see that system work more effectively. One very such type of organisations which are based important area which has been dealt with in on religion and caste are not allowed to enter the electoral reforms that have been intro- the political field. So. I support this provision. duced is the provision to see that booth capturing is brought to an en9. There is also There have been certain suggestions a provision to take stringent action against by many hon. members about the multi- those involved in booth-capturing such as purpose identity cards. I also feel that there disqualification of candidates who are in- is a necessIty for the introduction of multi- volved in booth-capturing and awarding purpose identity cards because this may be proper punishment to those officers who are a step to check booth capturing and with involved in booth capturing. these mUlti-purpose cards, certain other problems can also be tackled afterwards. Here I would like to recall one incIdent. But as has been pointed out in the speech of Recently, there was a by-election to the Shri Gadgil. we have to go into the details of Faridabad Parliamentary COnstituency. money required for this purpose. But at the When elections were being held, a lady SDM same time, even if the cost of making these in Bahadurgarh was brutally assaulted and mUlti-purpose identity cards is going to be abused by the lok Oal people who were somewhat exorbitant and if we are unable to booth-capturing for their candidate. It was take it up now. I feel that this idea should not such an ugly scene which could never be dropped altogether. Even at a later stage, it forgotten. I hope, with this amendment to should be pursued so that whatover benefi~~ curtail booth-capturing, such type of ugly we expect from it can be derived from this. incidents do not happen again. Regarding State funding of the elec- AN HON. MEMBER: What about tions, every 'Member of the Opposition who Udhampur? spoke just now have demanded that State funding of elections should be done. We do SHRI MUKUL WASNIK: You knew very feel that if it is possible, the State funding well what happened in Udhampur. But if you should be done. But for the State funding. know what happened in the very neighbour- the present system of multi-parties, where ing area, you would feel really pained if you not only many political parties but very small have a heart. organisations and individuals independently contesting the elections are going to be there Now, J come to the issue of re~,stration then State funding will not be possible. That of political parties. I do not understand why is not going to bring results which we want or the Opposition takes a stand that there is no which we expect. State funding is talked necessity to include this provision that the about for curtailing the role of money. If it is 113 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 114 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill not going to curtail the role of money, then country. That is how we should look at the there is no use of funding the el&ctions from younger generation today. I am happy that the Government because the evil will con- the Prime Minister has shown that confi.~ tinue and for continuing this evil there will be dence and taken the younger generation one more share coming ~rom the Govern- along with him. I expect that whatever ex- ment' officers. So, this thing I do not support. pectations are there fro'll the younger gen- Prof. Dandavate was mentioning that when eration for building a country, for strengthen- the population could not be controlled, when ing the country and for building a better India, the family planning cannot be done effec- this right of voting to the younger generation tively, at least there should be a family plan- will be used effectively and will be used ning of political parties. We want that. We widely, though they are young people. A want a strong Opposition, on Opposition demand of the Youth Congress and the whic:h is a national Opposition, an Opposi- NUSI has been met. I am happy for that. I am tion which has a national approach, a na- happy that today the chain of events which tional outlook and a perspective towards has started since the Anti-Defection Bill was several national issues. But what have we passed, that chain is continuing. It will con- seen? We have seen an Opposition coming tinue to strengthen the democracy of the together on a national front not for the na- country in the interest of thp. country and also tional cause, for national issues, but for the future of the country. coming tv power. If this sort of approach is there, then there will be never a two-party [ Trans/ation] system because there will never be a strong Opposition, there will never be a national SHRI BALKAVI BAIRAGI (Mandsaur): Opposition to take a vow from the ruling Madam, Chairman, I thank you for the time party. If there has to be a two-party system, given to me to speak on this Bill. I support this if there has to be a State funding of elections Bill and would like to congratul3te our han. then there has to be an Opposition which has Prime Minister Shri Rajlv Gandhi, the hon. a national approach, a national outlook and Minister of law, Shri Shankaranand, Shri concern forthe country. The concern forthe Bhardwaj and others, who took keen interest country is lacking in the Opposition today. in framing this Bill, because a very good Bill Today, they are trying to get political gain has been brought forward for the weHare ~f from every Issue. We have lowered the vot- our future generations. Some of our hon. ing age. That reflects the Prime Minister's Members tried their best to make this Bill confidence ;n the }founger generation. But controversial. Once a doubt wc!s raised as to Mr. V.P. Singh. the OppoSition Leader who whetller this Bill ",auld be introduced even. never thought of the youth of the country has later a doubt was raised that this Bill would started talking about the youth of the coun- be shelved but and it i~ our good luck that try. Why? He wants votes from the younger finally the Hill has been brought forward for generation. H the Opposition is going to which credit should go to all of u.:;. oelieve that by doing so they w!ll get votes from the younger generation, then they are From morning till 'lOW, J have been mistaken. Today, the younger generation listening carefully to all the Members who are very well aware of these things. They are participated in this debate. In 1985, when not only aware of the political and social this Government came in power, it bro\.:ght conditions of the country but also of the Anti Defection Bill which was later passed by future of the country. both the Houses and became and Act. At that time also, while people in general \IIIel- Shri Shankaranand mentioneci that comed that Bill, whereas our fri&nds, of present gen~ration is the future of the coun- opposition benches later on began to speak try. I strongly object to this .. The younger against that Bill by alleging that the Bill ha1 generation today is not the future of the been brought forward to save the Congress nation; it is the builder of the future of the Govem.nent. This time from the very begin- 115 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1983 Representation 116 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[Sh., Balkavi BairagiJ such wisdom by him that they ac~ in such a way that we continue to remain in power. I a .. ning, our friends of opposition benches have do not know where win you be when you been saying that this amendment in election state thinking positively. laws will directly benefit the COfl9ress Party. I ~m happy that this Bill has been brought You have opposed the registration of forward and we are participation in It and'for the parties and you feel that this should not the first time we are associating our young- be done. Shri Gadgil has aptly said as to in sters of 18 years of age in our political which company's name shou!d they get process, but our opposition friends are rais- registered when their partn!rs, brands and ing fil1ger on this, On this, I would only like names are changed everyday? to submit that they should go and scrutinize the voters list in their respective constituen- AN HON. MEMBER: In the name of cies, then t,",ey will find that as many as one benami party:. to three percent of their voters were below 18 years of age. No~ only this, even youths of 15 SHRI BALKAVI BAIRAGI: On the whole or 16 years of age have been klcluded in the had there been a provision of blank registra- voter lists and they are casting their votes, tion and bank Chit for registration, then , Candidates were declared elected or lost in everyone would have availed that facility but elections held on the basis of such voter lists. wnen rules are proposed these people Hour Government and the party after having straight a way oppose them. I feel sad and felt the necessity of such measures have surprised that all the responsi~e people brl.lught this electoral reforms Bill. the credit occupying seats on the Opposition benches, should go to us, but our colleagues of oppo- whom we bear and treat responsible per- site benches, in spite of taking keen interest sons, submit that persons from opposition in its passage, are vying with each other as were consulted but not the opposition Party. whom the credit should go for this . But I This is a s[range thElsis that person from, humbly submit to them that whane'"er this Opposition and Opposition Party are differ- Bill would find berth in the pages of history, ent. in the Opposition Party their number IS no amount of big talk on their part will be able constituted not in unit but in hundreds. How to wrest this credit from Shri Rajiv Gandhi. It can this work? I am understand when our will be accounted for in the name of Shn Opposition Members oppose some point Rajiv Gandhi alone. There is a great differ- and what else do they have to do except ence between the newspapers and History. opposing? I will not regret or feel surprised You can write anything in Newspapers. As even if they stage a walk out at the time of the credit of Anti-Defection Bill wen! to Shri passing of this Bill . I anticipate that they will Rajl\,' Gandhi, the credii: of this Bill will also go get angry at some point or the other and to him.( Interruptions) tomorrow when voting will take place, the Opposition Members will say that they dis- We always have dialogue with the agree with it and will stage a walkout. But opposition irl each and avery tone and forthe they should remember that if the Opposition last 103 years Congress Party has been does not participate in the discussion in a knowing this as to how a dialogue should be constructive manner toen it will be an oppor- made wIth the opposition. We do not have to tunistic Opposition and not a historicaJ learn the language from you or the opposi- Opposition. tioo. f would like to submit that opposition in this country has always b€en a body to be The point of expenditure has also been pitied for. not now but from the very begin- highlighted. I am a poor citizen of this country ning so they deserve to be left like this. and although I have the right to speak on the These people deserve our sympathy. I pray personal life yet I will not do so. I have to god in this House - the temple of democ- conteslod elections four times in my life and racy that the Opposition may be granted believe it that I walkout spending even a , 17 ' Const/tution (Sixty- AGRAHA YANA 23" 1910 (SAKA) Representation 118 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill single penny from my own pocket. . Even The situation is such that when the proces- though I was defeated in one election but I sion of the elected candidate takan out, his have never spent even a single penny from family members say that we did not get my own pocket. I am saying the truth that till anything. ~te I do not even know as to. who paid my depbsit money during the four elections. DR. G.S. DHILLON: it will not do if HO,wever, if a poor person in this country is everyone becom~s bairagi. elected to the parliament without kno~'in!J how aU this happened, then, I feel that the SHRI BALKAVI BAIRAGI: Shn Ohmon, credit goes to the system and not to me . I I shall take to you in the lobby after some want to submit that democracy is virtuous. time. (Interruptions) Mr. Chairman, Sir, Shri Rao has started speaking on personal topics RAO BIRENDRA SINGH (Mahendra- and I would not like to go into it . I would like garh): You should tell this way to everyone. to submit that the public does not have a favourable opinion about the Government SHRI BALKAVI BAIRAGI: Our col- funds. The people Will not favour those who league Shri Rao is saying that thiS method WIll contest elections with Government should be told to everyone (Interruptions) funtjs. Therefore; elections should be contested with the help of that money which is I would like to relate the strategy of thiS supposed to be legitimate in the eyes of system to the Opposition Member Shri O.B. people. I would like to submit for your infor- PatiJ and Shri Rao that it is very simple that mation that that money belongs to the everyone should become a balragl it he people and not to the Government. Besides wants to win. You will have to become the Governl'Jlent should direct the Gram balragi. forget your personality and be one Panchayats to fix the place and number of with the rural population. posters to be pasted. in every village. Posi- ers in tom condition are often found pasted AN. HaN. MEMBER: One WIll also have on the walls. Many a times it is even difficLJlt to become a poet. to find as to whose poster has been pasted there and by whom? A lot of money has to be SHRI BALKAVI BAIR/\GI: Poetry IS the spent in putting up these posters and flags. gift of God but if you become bairagi you will I would like to say one thing about flags also win the hearts of th~ reople of this country. for your information. Everyone knows that Whell you will become part ana parcel of this there are three columns in our flag. But the country, the country will reciprocate In equal partl~s whose flag is of one of two colours terms but when you WIll work for foreIgn have to face a lot of problems. The workers country then. of such p:.lrties say that the length of the flag should not be less than one metre. They say DR. G. S. DHILLON: (Ferozepur). A this so that that cloth may used for stItchIng bairagr too with a family. a blouse later on. The Government should fix certain limit about these flags. Those flags SHRI BALKAVI BAJRAGI: I want to are seen on the top of buildings upto elec- make another submission. This is right that tions but thereafterfiag cloth is stitchod and Shri Hansraj is taking note of all the points used in some form of the other. Due to tov about election. I would request him to note much of indigo in it gets difficult to wash it. down that when we asked Shr; Madhav to Later on it is overheard that so and so relate the expenditure met on contesting woman is wearing a dress which bear an election, he evaded this question. Can you electron symbol on its back I am saying this swear that we file ger.uine returns? quite seriously. Ycu will find all thiS if you visit the villages the Government should find out The case here is such that the public some way to that unnecessary expenditure spends more money thein the contestant. 011 flags may be avoided. The Government 119 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14. 1988 Repf8Sentalion 120 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill

[She Balkavi Bairagij fate of his amendment. There i$ no hassle about what is past. Once something is over should fix the limit of general m£etings;n the we want to bring in something good. Intro- respective constituencies. Too many meet- duction of electronic machines is also right- ings have to be held and a lot of time, step. The neighbouring State of Delhi will resources and money are wasted. face some problem because by installing electronic machines the bungling which has Our colleagues in the opposition have been done in the past will not be possible any criticised the independent candidates Shri more. My submission is that the Govern- Madhav who is like my elder brother has ment should install electronic machines entered the Parliament by winning elections. ( Interruptions) After having spoken he realised that one should not be so vocal in criticising the I regret when the Government itself independent candidates because a gentle- indulges in booth capturing. To whom man by the name of Shri V.P. Singh is also should we complain in such a situation? If an independen~. Out colleagues are aware the State Governments themselves indulge that he is also their leader however Shri in booth capturing then to whom can the Madhav reaiised this late. (interruptions) public complain I would like to thank the Government for having made the provision I would like to tell Shri Madhav that there of punishment in this Bill. The Government is a difference between an independent and has made a good provision of punishment on absolutely independent. The Government disturbing the election, meetings, otherwise must take some decision about indepeildent our friends had sought out various ways of candidates. Even if the Government raises disturbing meetings. But now it will be easy the deposit money to Rs. 25 thousand, the to apprehend such elements I congratulate powers who was to destabilise the demc- you and Shri Shankaranand in advance for cratlc set up from the country will manage this step and I want that this Bill should be even a sum of Rs 50/- thousand through passed. some source or the other. They will some how manage to keep them fighting . There I agree that there may be some draw- are certain forces within the country who backs and weaknesses In this BiU Elections want to destabilise the democratic Govern- will be held after one year and all the draw- ment by some means or the other. Some backs will berome, cleared at that time. We conspirac.y or the other goes on in the coun- will come to know as to what steps need to be try. The Government should find out some taken. The party which may ('.orne into power such way through which such practises after the elections can discuss those draw- could be curbed. backs but it well not be proper to stop this Bill on the plea that a comprehensive Bill should Besides, tre number of candidates in be introduced right now. elections is very large and it becomes difficult to trace them out, in the ballot paper I am I would like to request that it is an happy that the Govttrnment has kith in our oc:::asion no Jess than Diwali in our country. children and we also feel that they are the The country and many generations have children of intelligent people. The Govern- been waiting for this Bill. The Government ment is giving the right to vote to persons should pass it and get the best wishes and having .ar+.ained the age of 18 years. After blessings of the nation. getting this right they will work inteUigently and our leaders and organiser have fall fQith [English] in them. SHRt DfNESH GOSWAMI (Guwahati): ShdJAadhu Dandavate made a number Madam Chairperson. there are two Bills of good points.. He is now 9Cafed about the before us - one is the Constitution Amend- 121 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23.1910 (SAKA) Representation 122 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill ment bill by which the voting age is being complaint against the Indian people or the reduced to eighteen and another Bill by Indian voter. I believe in successive elec- which the Representation of the People Act, tions. The Indian voters, in spite of many 1950 and 1951 is sought to be amended. So being uneducated in the sense that they may far as the first Bift is concerned - the reduc- not have had college or school education, tion of voting age to eighteen years -I give have voted with responsibility, have voted my support fully, without any reservation. I with pride. Otherwise, there would not have have more reasons to be happy because I been so many changes of government. The represent a party here which is composed voters have risen above caste considera- primarily of the younger generation. If an tions, communal considerations. I am also eighteen years old boy can take part and one of those who are of the view that in take responsibility of all affairs under the law, crucial time, money has not really been able there is no reason as to why we should deny to influence them. Otherwise. in 1971, in them the right of franchise, and I think that spite of the fact that there were strong forces aberration has been corrected today. But I against Mrs. Gandhi, she would not have have only one point to make and I will like an come to power. Otherwise in 1977, the explanation of Mr. Bhardwaj on that. The hundred year old Congress Party would not law Minister has said that this Bill requires have been reduced to the dustbin of politics. ratification of the Legislatures. My own feel- Equally a party like A.G.P. would not have ing is that under article 368, this Bill does not come to power in Assam. In Andhra require ratification of the legislatures be- Pradesh, even in 1977, when in Northern cause the ratification of the Legislatures is India Congress was routed, Congress could required only in case of amendments of secure 41 out of 42 seats, but because the articles 54, 55, 73. 162 and 241. The only pride of the And~ra Pradesh people was provision that can probably be attracted by hurt, they again decided to put the same Mr. Bhardwaj is that ratification is required if party out of power in Andhra Pradesh. there is a change in the representation of Therefore, the people have voted with re- States in Parliament. Now, this is not going sponsibility and I feel that irrespective of the to make any change in the representation in party to which he belongs, if somebody has Parliament because if my friend says that failed in this country, it is the political parties this makes changes in the representation in and politicians who have failed the people Parliament, then every delir.1itation makes and not the people. The people stood their changes in the representation in the Parlia- ground and if we have not been able to ment. Therefore, I will like Mr. Bhardwaj or balance the representation in the Parliamt::nt Mr. Shankaranand to clarify whether actu- or if we have not been able to occupy the ally this Bill will require ratification because in seats of power. I put the blame to myself ana my view, this Bill does not require ratification no other. Some of the friends opposite have because it is not attracted by any of the complained that the opposition has only the ratification clauses under article 368. ambition to occupy the seat of power and that is in my view natural ambition. In a So far as the other Bill is concerned, I democracy, the Opposition will always try to must express my disappointment. I have occupy the seat of power and the ruling party tried to study the provisions of the other Bill, will always try to keep itself in the seat of not from the Opposition point of view but power. But that does not mean that there are objectively. and I have tried to analyse the no maladies which require no rectification. provisions, and my disappointment arises We have also seen in Assam in 1983, an from the fact that number of maladies which aberration of the electoral process when today we find in our electoral system, which under the pretext of Constitutional compul- require correction, have not been touched in sion, the election was held and out of 90.000 this bill at all. While saying so that there are voters in a constituency. i.e. 89, 990 people a number of maladies in our electoral sys- said, "we are not casting the votes· and with tem, I must make it clear that I have no 90 votes the persons were selected-and was 123 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 124 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[Sh. Dinesh Goswami] calculations. Supposing I am to contest in the next election, what will be my expenses? made a Ministers. There have been From whatever sources it may came, I found aberrations in the electoral process and that I am to run 22 vehicles. I have 10 about aberrations in the electoral process, it Assambty constituencies and to manage is not that we have complained, the com- these 22 vehicles, for 8 days with 2 vehicles plaints have also come from the other side. for each Assembly constituency and this is Wheneverthe oPPOsition had won, the ruling the minimum number required nowadays. party had complained that there had been So, one will require about Rs. 3.50 lakhs and aberrations and therefore it is necessary that on the polling days one will need Rs. 70,000 we have a deep look into our electoral proc- on an average and for the other propaganda ess. materials one requires about As. 50,000. Therefore, you cannot think of running an Sir, there are three forces or the three election in less than Rs. 4.5 lakhs. Now, powers which are required to be dealt with. wherefrom this money wil' come? Either this One is the abuse of the money power and the money of Rs. 5 lakhs I will get from my other is the abuse of the State power and the friends or from some other sources. :;"'\1 third is the abuse of muscle power. I am of many friends will have money to give me for the view that the money by itself does not election purposes? I think tr 3.t either the influence election results. Otherwise Tatas party or the individual shall have to fall back and Birlas would have won the elections. But upon the industrialists and mill-ownel s. Do the problem that I face today is that we they give this money without asking tor quid require a great deal of money to run elec- proquo? Either you shall have to get from the tions. Mr. Bairagi may be one who may win foreign Commissionerfrom the jndian indus- elections without money. He has asked trialists. In case of a very highly cadre-based everybody to be like himself. At this stage I party like the CPI(M) is there, expenses may cannot leave my wife. If I do that, all the be less, but even they will require money women will come and pounce upon me. after coming to power. There, I think their expenses are also going up. Therefore, AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Balfagi has when we ask for tackling the money power, not left his wife. it is not in order to influence the Indian voters as they have been by and large influenced SHRI OINESH GOSWAMI: I am happy by money, but in order to point out that if we to note that. I can tell you that in the last want really the election promises to be trans- General Elections I hope our adversaries will lated into reality, on the one hand we cannot bear me out, that our candidates of A.G.P. say that we will usher in a socialist society, won by spending less than Rs. 5000. It is we will work for the poor. For fighting elec· because people in that election took the tions we turn to the reacher sections for their election as a challenge. It was more like a money. In such a sitUation after elections. referendum. But is an exception. Today if whatever may be our attempt or commit- you want to run an election machinery, ment, that ;s going to be diluted and that is whether the money states out of your pocket why it has become necessary that the elec- or whether the money comes f rom the party tion expenses must be reduced if we want to or whether it comes from your friends or translate our promises into reality and there other sources, I think it is impossible to the question of State funding comes in. I am manage a parliamentary election in less aware that in a country like India it is not than Rs. 5 lakhs. In fact, Mr. Ganesan. the possible to provide State funds to all Rs. 5 Secre1ary of the Ejection Commission made lakhs to each candidate is not possible and a certain exercise sometime back and he I am not in favour of that. I am not in favour was of the view that in a constituency Rs. also of giving this state funding to Independ- 5.85 lakhs would be necessary in order to ents or the un-organised parties. But we run the elections effectively. I made certain have certain criteria, the Election Commis- 125 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 126 Sscond Amdt.) Bin & of People (Amdt.) Bill sian give symbols to certain parties which Bill at all. acquire a percentage of votes either in the Assembly elections or in the parliamentary The other question is the misuse of elections. We may lay down certain criteria State power. However much one may say, and in st.. ad of giving money, I think we can today the TV and the Radio have lost their start giving minimum of facilities. Why can't credibility. the facility of free postage be given to a candidate who comes from a recognised PROF. N.G. RANGA (Guntur): No, no. political party, recognised underthe Election Symbol Order, for posting his' appeal to the SHRI DINESH GOSWAMI (Guwahati): voters or the identification slips to the vot- My friends from the Ruling Party may dis- ers? Why can't we put certain limitations on agree but people do not rely upon the TV and the banners, the posters etc? Even Mr. the Radio. Bairagi has suggested it. Why can't we give a certain number of vehicles, a limited PROF. N.G. RANGA: What do you number of vehicles and fuel facilities to the mean by 'people'? candidates of the recognised political parties? It will not cost the State much, but it will (Interruptions) give an opportunity, even to a poor party, to fight the election and equally even a rich SHRI DINESH GOSWAMI: Maybe to party will be made much less dependant you I am wrong. (Interruptions) I may be upon the richer section of the society be- wrong, I do not know. But this is the view I if cause whatever you may say, the fact re- you ask a common man, you will know that mains that the electoral process has been the TV and the Radio have lost their credibil- vitiated not because the people have voted ity. (Interruptions) wrongly but because we make promises, and we have failed to keep these promises Secondly, whichever political party whichever the party may be, whether it is the may be in power, who can deny that once the Congress Party or the Opposition parties election is in the offing the foundation laying because the compulsions of fighting elec- ceremonies start? There are obviously cer- tions on money and then fighting those tain codes, but the codes come into people are there and therefore, the question operation only after the election proceS£. of State funding assumes importance. It is formally starts. But we aU know well aheae not that the Opposition has made that sug- that election is going to take place. For gestion, the question of State funding has example the election process will start in been discussed threadbare in fact the Elec- Tamif Nadu, formally only from Saturday, tion Commission of 1980 made this sugges- according to the law when the Notification tion to the Government. ShriR.K. Trivedi and will be issued. But everybody knew even five Shri S.L. Shakdher, the two former Chief months back that the election will take place Election Commissioners, have made this in January. And during these months all suggestion. There was a Seminar in which sorts of promises have been made without the hon. Speaker himself was present Shr; violating the Codes. J am not blaming only L.P. Singh, Shri Tarkunde and the then law the Congress. It is the tendency in any ruling Minister Shri Sen were present, all of them party, whoever in power 0 try to pJacate the were of the view that limited State funding in voters. Then, there is the misuse of the essential. What may be the items that can be official machinery. Should we not do some- funded or whattype ot assistance -I am not thing regarding that? About the use of official asking for cash - what materials can be vehicles, official helioopters. these are mis- given, well that may be a subject matter of used with impunity. Should there be no re- debate, but on principle I believe that the striction on the misused of official vehicles State funding should be accepted, but unfor- and the curtailment of the misuse of the tunate1y this has not been dealt with in this State power? 127 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 128 Second Arndt.) Bill & of PeopI9 (Amdt) Bill

[Sh. Dinesh Goswami1 and therefore. the charity should begin at home. You do not want to give up your One point has been made about the control over the Election Commission. The Election Commission. Now my friend, Shri Election Commission itself suggested for the Shankaranand said that the Constitution creation of a Department of Election and the itself says that there should be a mUlti- Union Government does not respond to it. member Election Commission. But article My suggestion is that an independent Secre- 324 (2) says: tariat of the Election Commission be constituted and if an independent Secretariat like "The Election Commission shall con- that of as in the Lok Sabha or Rajya Sabha sist of the Chief Election Commis- is created, I have no hesitation in supporting sioner and such number of other Elec- the provision by which ail the staff of State tion Commissioners, if any, as the Government who are today responsible ~or President from time to time fix and the doing any duty of the Election are entrusted appointment of the Chief Election on a put on to the Election Commission. But Commissioner and other Election that is not done. So far as the Election Commissioners shall, subject to the Commission is concerned, you decide not to provisions of any law made in that give an independent secretariat but try to behalf by Parliament, be made by the bring the State Government employees President". under the control of the Commission. I feel that your action is not bona fide and that is Up till now, this Parliament has not made any why, I urge upon this Government that an law in exercise of its powers under article independent Secretariat should be estab- 324 (2). The power is inherent in this Parlia- lished and. therefore, I have given an ment that the Parliament should make a law amendment to section 13 CC and section about appointment of EJectIon Commission. 28A My amendment is: I demand upon this Government, if the Government is honest, Let them bring a law "Provided that the provision of this under which the Election Commission is Section shall come into operation after constituted as a multi-member Election the Parliament by law sets up an inde- Commission. Our suggestion is that it should pendent Secretariat of Election be constituted ;n consultation with the Chief Commission and the Commission is Justice of India and also the vice-President, given total authority over the electoral who is the Chairman of the Rajya Sabha, staff employed by the Commission because of the Council of States is 21so independent of the control of the Union being involved in the process. The law Government. • should be made. Then the other Printer that the Election Commission staff are staff of the I will give full credit to the Government if Union Government. There is no independ- it has courage and conviction, to accept my ent secretariat of Election Commission and amendment. this point was debated at the time of Con- stituent Assembly. Dr. Ambedkar at that The other point I want to make is that a pojnt of time said that is would mean extra statutory limit should be laid down regarding cost or duplicity and he did not favour it~ But holding of by-elections. A number of con- if you want now today to put everybody of the stituencies are being unrepresented here in Slate machinery who is in-charge of election Parliament In Tamil Nadu, the Assembly operatiOP. right from the date of the prepara- election is taking place. Therefor~, there tion of the voters list on deputation to the cannot be any law and order ground as to Election Commission, then do you not feel why ;n Tamil Nadu, t'le Parliamentary eJec- that the coat would be so much multiplied. I tions cannot take place. What is the reason am tcdaIy in favour of making the Election as to why the parliamentary bye-elections Commission. totally an independent body have notbeen announoed. As a Member of 129 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 130 Second Amdt.) aRI & of People (Amdt.) Bill

Parliament, I am entitled to know why a five to ruling party from the electoral pros- particular constituency in Tam il Nadu is pects, may be treated as sensitive constitu- remaining unrepresented here in Parlia- encies and, therefore, I have given amendment. Therefore, there should be a limit to be ment that the constituencies where elec- put down that within such and such time tronic machine to be used, must be decided limits,' the election must take place and by the Election Commission in consultation supposing even if you feel that there are with the recognised parties and the State exceptional reasons, well, we can make and the Union Govemments. exceptions to that. Otherwise, I have seen that the byelections take place only when it So tar as registration is concerned, I am suits that ruling party. not opposed to the registration. But, 1have failed to understand what is the purpose of 16.00 hrs. this registration. By this registration, the political parties are not going to get any The third point is regarding the muscle benefit or accept any responsibility except power. I welcome the provisions regarding that one should make a declaration under booth capturing and rigging but everybody Clause 5. Most of the political parties' rules has suggested for issue of the identity cards. and regulations contain this declaration. So We have accepted the principle of the iden- far as I am concerned, my party is committed tity cards in the registration of the electoral to socialism, secularism and democracy and rules. Having accepted that principle, it all that. But, I have got a point which I request should not remain only on paper. If you want the law Minister to consider from legal it. definitely you should implement Clause 28 importance point of view. So far as the unity, of the Registration of the Election Rules. If Integrity and iecularism of this country or you want to implement It, it may not be owing to allegiance to the Constitution is possible to implement it throughout India at concerned , there is no problem. But, does one stroke. But, at least a beginning must be Article 19 permit you to include socialism made. As Shri C. Madhav Reddi has pointed also? Article 19 gives the aosolute nght of out, I do not find in the financial memoran- association. The only limitation put uncqr dum any allocation for implementing the Article 19 is that" principle or issue of identity cards in notified constituencies. Even an experienced legis- "Nothing in this sub-clause shall affect lator like Shri Virendra Patil has said how the operation of any existing law or impersonation has taken place and, there- prevent the State from mak;ng any law fore, issue of multi-purpose identity cards in so far as the law imposes reason- which we have accepted under the rules, able restrictions on the exercise of tne should be given immediate effect. right on these grounds:

So far as the electronic machines are You can put concerned, I am totally in favour of them. But. there ;s no guideline as to where the "sovereignty and integrity; the security Election Commission will induct this elec- of the State, friendly relations with for- tronic mach.ne. The only sentence is "if the eign States, pubJic order, or decency EJection Commission so decides·. In your and morality." Financial Memorandum, you' have said "sensitive constituencies·. tn the Act, the But can you put a restriction saying that '" win wording is "Wherever the Election Commis- not allow an Association to fight elections, if sion in the circumstances so decides·, And, 1hat Association or a Party does not pro- therefore, there must be some guideline claim to be a believer of socialism? That because this sensitive constituency may be party may say it does not believe in socialism a constituency which is sensitive to the ruling and it will through the Constitutional proc- party. Those constituencies which are sens;- ess, to change the country to a otHerent 131 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 132 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[She Dinesh Goswami1 something which I would like the hone Law Miriister to con~der. I can assure Shri system.- Prof. N.G. Ranga, the veteran Bairagi that we have decided not to vote parliamentarian. was once a Member of the against the Bill. We have our view that this is Swatantra Party. The Swatantra Party did inadequate. We have suggested amend- not believe in socialism. ments. But, we will support the BilI.though inadequate, with many reservations regard- PROF. N.G. RANGA: No. We too being some clause. But. I am in agreement with lieved in socialism. We believed in agrarian Prof. Dandavate and this is the demand from socialism. us that a more comprehensive Bill showed be brought incorporating the various sug- SHRI DINESH GOSWAMI: ~e be- gestions that have been made from time to lieved in a socialism of a different type. Shri time after adopting this Bill. After this Bill is RajagopaJachari was of the view that social- passed Government showed bring a com- ism of the type which is followed in the prehensive Bill so that the money power, country is not real socialism. I am saying it muscle power and State power could be because we are creating dangerous prece- contained not for the benefit of all but more dents. There are many Leftist Communist particularly for the benefit of the democratic parties; there are many ultra-Leftist parties polity of the country. which have different ideological philosophy. For example, once the CPM didn't believe in THE MINISTER OF PARLIAMEN- the Parliamentary Democracy. There are TARY AFFAIRS AND MINISTER OF IN- some ultra-Leftist Parties which, today. may FORMATION AND BROADCASTING not believe in this system as it is. but if they (SHRI H.K.L. BHAGAT); Madam Chairman, want to say ;n future that to committed to the very eminent and very capable Parliamen- Parliamentary Democracy and they want to tarians from the Opposition Benches and come to the fold of Parliamentary Democ- from our side have already participated in racy or a party which may not believe in the debate. The reply will be given by the socialism says that it wants to go to voters, hon. Law Minister who is piloting this Bill. I on these issues can we say that within the would (ike to make a few suggestions for democratic system we will not give the op- consideration and a few observations in portunity? I believe that this will be against question. Everybody has expressed confi- the very basis and philosophy of our dence in the people of india and congratu- Constitution. , am sure that such parties will lated them for making this Indian democracy be rejected by the people but people are a stable democracy. given the freedom of reject them. I believe that the inherent philosophy at our 16.08 hrs. Constitution is that of the right of free association. Some people may not believe in [SHRI SOMNATH RATH in the Chailj certain things. I have no quarrel with Again' am saying that the requirements of clause 'would like to go a little 1urther then that. (5). So far as my party is concerned, we have I do not say that everything ;s perfect; even already proclaimed that we are prepared to with today's amendments, everything will be give the declaration under Clause 5 if it IS aU right. 'don't claim that. Certainly. there is necessary. But I would like the han. Minister scope for reform and that is what the Gov- to consider whether the entire Clause will be ernment felt; that is what all the Opposition struck down on the ground that we are put- groups felt. That is why this Bill has been ting restriction which is not a reasonable brought before Parliament. Of course, some restrictionescontemplated under Article 19. of the Opposition Leaders have said that The spirit of the Constitution and by spirit of they were disappointed over certain things; the democratic process allow intetplay of they were happy with only one or two things. thoughts to be tested by the electors? This is My good friend Shri Madhav Reddy spoke. I 133 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23.1910 (SAKA) Representation 134 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill heard his speech. He said that only one thing there is not one group which is a recognised is good and that is about lowering of voting opposition party as such, each one was age to 18 years and he said that the rest is all consulted and given an opportunity and they nothing. gave their points very frankly which were taken note of by the Law Minister and the I would like to say that the amendments officers of the Law Minister and the officers which have been brought are very significant of the Parliamentary Affairs Ministry. Now he and they are of far-reaching consequence. says: "you don't consult us." Supposing we India can rightly feel proud of that because a were to call only one or two. Where is the new direction is being given to this country. opposition-one united opposition? Does it I will come to that later. What I would like to exist here? You are today speaking as rep- say is that the people of India are masters. resentatives of different opposition groups. They certainly stood by Indian democracy. I Supposing we had ignored you and called would say that despite the deficiencies, it one or two people, what would you have felt? has worked well. What pinches us is the We have consulted the opposition in a very booth-capturing and rigging in some parts of fair and objective manner and given the the country, sometimes. lA' blames '8', '8' opportunity. We have gained by that. We eire blames IC' etc. Leaving that apart, I would grateful to you for cooperation you gate. say that the electoral system of India has Well, we wish you well. So far as Govern- stood the test of time. Despite the prophecy ment is concerned, we want the opposition of many prophets of doom outside this to grow, to develop. But we are very sorry House ~nd inside this House, democracy that during these 40 years of India becoming has firmly stood its ground in India. I know free, no opposition party or group of opposi- from the day we became free, there were tion parties has developed with national people who said that democracy would not perspective with national existence and with survive in India because of various reasons. vision the result, they are not able to deliver They put forth several arguments. All these the goods. Sometimes just by chance they prophets of doom notwithstanding, democ- won by a negative vote. Otherwise every- racy has taken very strong and firm roots in where else they lost. (Int9rruptions) India. As for those arguments and those versions which say that democracy is being More than anybody else Prof. Madhu weakened, democracy system is crumbling Dandavate knows what happened in 1977. and it is breaking and so on, I think, democ- He was Minister then. They had a leader like racy system has taken very strong rcots \n Mr. Jayaprakash Narayan. When he died India ana we are proud of that. That shows how much disenchanted was he? With the confidence of the people of India in whom? With the present directors of the democracy and in our system despite cer- drama-not with us or with you people. That tain deficiencies. is a fact. Facts of history and facts of life. Now what are y~u suggesting today? Now Hon. Now one point which I did not expect Mr. Members today stressed more on the by- Madhav Reddiji to make but which he tried to elections. And I just checked up with the law make was this. He said: "opposition as such Minister. Nobody asked for any mid-term has not been consulted and we as groups poll. Till two or three months, outside, they have been consulted. • , do not know what he were asking for mid-term poll. Now they are meant by that. I say each group of the asking for by-eledions. They are saying; opposition irrespective of the fact whether it "by-elections have not taken place.· They is one member group orthree member group are blaming the Central Government for or 25-member group or 30 member group, that. On the one hand, you say: "make the each group was consulted and given suffi- Election Commission independent." On the cient time and they placed their point of view. other hand, you blame the Government for Now despite the fact according to the rules of holding or not holding elections. TillS 'ooks Parliament-we do not go by that here- rather contradictory. It doesn't go well to- 135 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 136 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[She H.K.l. Shagat] you failed. Now what you are aiming at is coalition and multi-member groups and gether. Let me make it clear. As far as combinations at various places. This has holding of elections is concerned, Speaker been tried at the Centre, it failed. It was tried very rightly said that it is the job of the in various States, it failed. I think, I will ask Election Commission. So far as Government" Mr. Madhav Reddi to ask his Chief Minister isconcernedorthe ruling party is concerned, whether he would like to have a coalition we have never been afraid of any by-elec- government in Andhra Pradesh. What will tions or elections. We have always fought happen to a coalition government? The late by-elections, fought elections. You remem- Mr. Charan Singh, when his SVD coalition beronlythe by..elections that you have won. Government failed in UP, said that SVD is a Mr. Madhav Reddi forgets the by-election cancer. Each one of you know what has that he lost in his own State, for Parliament. happened to various coalition We have won in your State. You forget the governments ... (/nterruptions)... It is very trends which are discernible in all the oppo- relevant. Prof. Dandavateji, I consider al- sition-led States. What are the trends in ways you as the repository of wisdom; but I Andhra itself? What are the trends in Karna- still wish to say something. taka itself? What are the trends in Kerala itself? What are the trends in opposition PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: I say rules States? I say there is no use my claim- you will represent an ideal opposition. I wish ing and your claiming today and saying that you godspeed. "you are afraid of by-elections." I say: "you are afraid of by-elections. "You think, you will SHRI H.K.L. BHAGAT: Thank you very win. Sut I am very confident because Con- much. I always value your compliments. gress is the only national party with national perspective with policies and programmes in Some friends said that they will have a a nationally and internationally accepted proportional representation and partly pro- leadership. It may face difficulties. But it is portional representation. It is very easy to the party which has won in the past. Even say that. But what will bethe consequences? when it was defeated, it has come back. We The consequences are that wherever stabil- OOpe to win back last states as well. There is ity exists today in Indian conditions, that will nothing else but to clap. You will have to clap. disappear. Will you accept proportional rep- Therefore no question of fearing the by- resentation then? Does any State like to. elections. accept it? it is not that because of this in the present system the Opposition has not come Now I come straight to the point. Mr. to power. A number of you have come to Goswami also knows the situation in which power-you are in the Parliament though they are passing through today; I don't want not in power. In other States you are in to say much on that. We are not happy. We power. The system provides you an opportu- want you to grow; we want you to be united; nity for different views to come up. The only but you cannot be. After all during these 40 thing is that the Opposition in the country has years if the Opposition could not develop, it not been able to develop into a national is because no party had developed. Unless opposition in the sense-Prof. Madhu Dan- it has ideological clarity, \unless it has a davate will excuse me to say this-that they vision, unless it 'has a national existence, are surrendering their national perspective and unless it is prepared to work patiently for and are trying to make a combination to find a long time. you cannot develop. The diffi- nectar in regional wills. Some of you person- culty is that you want to find out short-cuts to ally have the national perspective. You have power. won in spite of waves, typhoons and so on.

. Sometime even when you got by PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: Please chance the power because of our mistake, tell us who are your allies in Kerala. 137 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Representation 138 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

SHRI H.K.L. BHAGAT: I am saying all tioned, I am saying all this. I want to say, I did this to categorically refute that the Congress get some period checked up and today the or the Government is afraid of faCing you. best covered Chief Ministers in TV and We are never afraid of facing you and we are Radio are my friend Shri Somnath's Chief very confident that in any polls under Rajiv Minister Mr. Jyoti Basu and Mr. Nayanar. Gandhi's leadership we will win the elec- They are the best covered Chief Ministers ;n tions. TVs and the media. I got it checked up fOf same period. I am coming to Hon. Member Dinesh Goswami's point. He says the radio and I went to Andhra and the Chief Minister televisIon have lost credlbil!ty. According to gave me very good breakfast. After that, he him, in his language, if he talks to any man he quietly gave me a 'love letter' complaining say that the TV has lost its credibility. Why that the media is not covering him and his are you afraid of that? If TV has lost credibil- Government well. I checked up those two ity, it should go against us. Is it not it? It months. I found that it has got a tremendous should help you. No; you know that the TV coverage. I told the Press. No reply came has not lost its credibility. It is wrong. because facts and figures could not be done.

SHRI DINESH GOSWAMI: As far as Then, you have one advantage. Leav- Chitrahaar is concerned, it has not lost credi- ing aside the Ministers, Chief Ministers and bility. the Prime Minister, if you look aside, I have got done certain work-study. You are fortu- SHRI H.K.L. BHAGAT: It is very contra- nate that the number of Opposition parties dictory. You say that the TV has lost credibil- happens to be vpry large. Therefore, you get ity; radio has lost credibility, nobody trusts a little more, jf not equal, publicity as far as them, nobody believes them. In that case, it the Congress is concerned. You are getting should go against us. If it has lost credibility, even more. The TV and the Radio are under I cannot understand why all the Opposition- crossfire not only from you but from the ruled States MPs, MlAs and other people Congress. I am getting it from both the sides. write to me again and again and want to have The Congress says, I am giving you more. more and more TV transmitters in their And you say, I am giving more to the Con- States and in their constituencies. If you like, gress. This is what is happening. I can quote. I have a number of letters from all of you. So far as the present system is concerned-Madhuji, you also raised this mo- SHRI DINESH GOSWAMI: They want nopoly media-what I am saying is that the to see Chitrahaar and films on the TV and not present system, at the time of election, gives your programmes. equal opportunity to the recognised political parties. Now that system worked and it SHRIH.K.L. BHAGAT: Well, if you want should work well. There are certain guide- to say that it is not lost credibility, it is all right. lines. They said, well, guidelines are violated. Then, they can be seen after the PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: That is elections. How many cases of violations of tor the benetit of the congressmen in our guidelines have been there? Allthese issues constituencies. can be raised and you have raised. There- fore, I am saying that you talk about the AIR SHRI H.K.L. BHAGAT: It looks very and talk about the TV. I don't say that TV and funny that TV and radio have lost credibility AIR are prophets and there is nothing to and you want TV and radio more. complain. If I were to pick up how much Madhu Dandavate has been covered-he I am not here to reply to a debate on the works; he speaks here-how much various TV and Radio. Because a point was men- Opposition leaders have been covered by 139 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 140 S9c0nd Amdt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill

ISh. H.K.L Bhagat] sentenced to some kind of imprisonment, they will not be able to contest. the TV and the AIR and those who speak in 'Current Affairs", I can give you a list. I don't Shri Madhav Reddi and some others cover the Parliament news. It is the news also said about the officers who today work correspondents and journalists who cover it. under the Election Commission. They are H I show you the list of those who come in already under their supervision. Why are 'Current Affairs~ during the last one or two you puttillg them under his discipline? On years, the number of Congressmen in that the one hand, you always say: Give full list will be very few. So, this is all a part of the powers to the Election Commission; give game try to give a bad name to the TV and them all powers. For 10. 15 or 20 day 3, you the Radio and ask for more TV and RadiO are not prepared to put your officers to work stations in your constituencies. under his supervision and under his discipline. By this argument, are you strengthen- Shri Madhav Reddi snd others also said ing the hands of the Election Commissioner that there is nothing in the this Bill. I am told or weakening his hands? If he does not have about it. I did not have the privilege of listen- this power, what will he do? Should hd run to ing to Prof. Madhu Dandavate but the Law the Chief Minister and say that there is Minister tells me that he is impressed by his something wrong and he wants to take ac- speech, though not all arguments. (Interrup- tion? tions) Anyway, he said that. I am always impressed by your speech. Now, you say SHRI DINESH GOSWAMI: Will you that there is nothing in this. Well, on age, all permit me for a minute and answer my agree that a very big thing has been done. question? Why don't you put the officers who Confidence has been shown in the younger are in the Chief Election Commissioner's people. On that, we are all agreed. Now, Shri office under this discipline? You are not Madhav Reddi did say that is the only one putting the officers who are working in the thing. Supposing this to be the only thing, is office of the Chief Election Commissioner it small? I would say that it is one of the most under the discipline of the Chief Election crucial and biggest decisions in the Indian Commissioner. They are under the Law democracy being taken in this House today Ministry. on an initiative by Shri Rajiv Gandhi, the Prime Minister of India. That means, the SHRI H.K.L. BHAGAT: That process as Parliament is going to show confidence in already there. the younger generation, who are no less patriotic than us, no less conscientious than THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE us, no less hardworking than us. They look MINISTRY OF LAW AND JUSTICE (SHRI after India better than us. Is it true that there H.R. BHARDWAJ): Mr. Goswami, you know 'is nothing else in this Bill? that when the election process starts, the Law Ministry cannot touch any of the officials I want to see the clause of disqualifica- working there. They are completely under tion. A man convicted under dowry offences their control even now. and under various other social offences, for the first time. has come under the clause of SHRI H.K.L. BHAGAT: Now,' would 'offences'. For offenpes against women and like to talk about the State funding of eJec- even hoarding, profiteering and various tions on which a lot of stress has been laid. other things, people have been disqualified. I agree that a lot of money is spent on Is it a small thing? If you see from the angle eJections and that they are expensive. Lot of of giving a social thrust towards elections, money is spent on election and nobody can this again is a red letter day that these deny it. Elections are a costly affair. nobody provisions have been made. Those people can deny it. It is not that only we spend could contest. Now, if they are convicted and money and you have all come without 141 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Representation 142 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill spending money. No. Is that so? No. Now, admit it. He himself is a worried man. He has the question is whether the State funding of to do a lot of 'chipkoing' to create paper boat. the elections is practicable. And whether it His vote is not coming up, and it will not come will eliminate the use of money power in the up. I know his worry. elections. This may be your experience that with the use of money power you can win PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: I am elections. In may whole life I have been only worried about your speech. contesting elections and I believe that no amount of money can make anyone to win SHRI H.K.L. BHAGAT: Well, for the first election. Elections are never won and lost by time, it has been decided, in this Bill a provi- money. Of course, we spend money on sion is there, that there should be the regis- propaganda and publicity and so on. But the tration of the party. At present the parties are question is how much does it help. There are forthe purpose of allotment of symbols. One various legal and Constitutional questions thing which is the most important and to- which are not easy to answer. We are wards which at least a beginning has to be Members of Parliament and we have come made and a very big beginning has been here on the Party symbols. The Members made, is that every party will have to declare should not be given the funding, rather it its loyality to the principles enshrined in the should be given to the parties. It is an idea. Constitution. Is it a small thing? Well, Mad- I do not say that new ideas should not be huji said that we should do something about thrown out. But these are not thrown out. It is the misuse of the religious places. I person- not easy to find out ways to deal with this. ally agree with his sentiments. I agree that Secondly, will it mean lesser use of money some way should be found out. Government power? No. is also thinking that some or the other way should be found' out. We should not bring I think by now you all would have real- religion in politics. This provision in itseU that ised-but you will not admit-that the so no party will be able to register itself unless called talk of value based politics which was it swears by secularism, socialism and all the started by some section of the Opposition principles enshrined in the Constitution is no has disappeared in the air. It has gone be- small achievement. Today, it may look like a cause it did not exist. It was something which small piece of paper but it is something very was unnatural, which has no existence. So, good. it has gone. It is very funny-I hope you will not mind my saying so-to talk of value Now let us come to the aspect of booth- based politics by the politicians who make capturing. Booth-capturing has now been allegations against other leaders and defined and certain examples too have been against whom serious allegations exist. I do given. Is that a small step? not want to name them to annoy them. Who is a senior Opposition leader against whom Shn Madhav Reddl had spoken about a no allegation exists? I am not talking about untform policy. Do you want the Government you, Mr. Dandavate. No allegation exists to run the elections? No. You want the elec- against you. Who amongst your seniors, so tions to be run by the Election Commission. called architects, are the leaders against What can. be 'uniform'? Are the conditions whom them ara-no serious allegations? In and situations in different States at different regard to some, there are prima facie find- times uniform? They are not always uniform. ings; in regard to some; there are court They may be uniform or they may not be. observations. I would only say, "Physician, Therefore, the best underthecircumstances heal thyself." Those who live in glass houses is the ,Election Commission. In principle, I should not throw stones on others. You are also agree when you say that the Chief trying to make a boat out of a very brittle Election Commissioner should be inde- paper. You cannot make it. It would not work. pendent.ln beginning,l also thought Hke you By now you may admit it. Madhuji may not and I was also taken in by the idea of a m ulti- 143 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14. 1988 Representation 144 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[Sh. H.K.l. Bhagat] parties can also contes~ elections with the help of state funding. Perhaps he thinks that member Election Commission I too used to the fight between a major party and a small think that it might be better and I thought that party is unequal, if I understand him right. there was nothing wrong in what you are But I wonder whether you can reduce the asking. But then I thought over the matter major party having a national stature and carefully and calmly. By making it a multi- compare it to a party of regional stature. You member commission, will you be eroding the cannot do that. Therefore some posters ana authority of the Chief Election Commis- two or three vehicles are not going to help sioner or will you be giving him more author- you. Secondly, there will be so many details ity? Some leaders of the opposition sug- like the design of the posters, the wording of gested that we must consult this and consult the slogans and so on which have to be that. Now, do you want an independent worked out and for this purpose twenty or commission or a commission which would thirty or forty people should sit together and be prone to pressures and pulls from all diSCUSS and decide. It is very easy to talk sitles? Therefore, I want to know what you about these things. But it is very difficult to mean by a multi-member commission. take decisions and implement them. There- fore, state funding of elections has not ap- PROF. MADHU DANDAVA TE: There pealed to us. is a provision for that in the Constitution itself. While concluding, I would say that we all agree on the provisions contained in the Bill. SHRI H.K.L BHAGAT: In the begin- There is no difference of opinion about these ning, I too thought like you. But when I used prOVisions. You have asked us to do this and my head a little more, I found that this would to do that. But you have not said anything in only weaken the position of the Chief Elec- appreciation of what we have done. It is bad. tion Commissioner. Under any circum- Not in one clause, but in clause after clause, stances, the Chief Election Commissioners we have brought forward many provisions position must be strengthened and not with which you all agree. Could you suggest weakened. that we must remove the cfause on booth- capturing. the provision of disqualification or I was quite impressed when Shri the provision of registration of parties? No. Goswami asked as to why some posters and you cannot. I think we should all happily and some vehicles could not be given to different unitedly agree to all these things because all parties. Will that run your elections? No. the steps taken are in the positive direction. Now, you should think whether there should We are all politicians. You are politicians and be government funding of elections at all in I am a politician and we do have a politically- principle. Apart from being practical or not, motivated approach on every issue includ- will government funding alone solve the ing electoral reforms. But these are matters problem of elections in our country, which of great interest to our nation and I hope you has its own size, dimensions and regions? I all accept these provisions because these really do not know. I have organised elec- are matters which are not going to help any tions in various States and from my own individual party but the whole nation. personal experience I can tell you this much that so far as the people of India are con- SHRI SHARAD DIGHE (Bombay North cerned, they do not give votes for money and Central): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I rise to support they are not intimidated by money power. the Constitution (Sixty-second Am&ndment) They cannot be purchased. It is totally wrong Bill and also the Representation of the if anyone thinks that people of his country People (Amendment) Bill, 1988. can be purchased. Sir, by doing so, a very bold step has Maybe. his intention is that smaller been taken to bring the youth of this country 145 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHA YANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Representation 146 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Arndt.) Bill in jhe mainstream of the democratic life of and also Sub-fnspectcrs the age for recruit- this country. Many may say and take credit ment is 18 years: that they were the first to suggest this or that and because of their pressure this Electoral Therefore, it was but natural that as far Reform has been introduced by the Govern- as election is concerned, the voting age ment but the fact remains that dunng the last should be reduced promptly from 21 years to 17 years, every Committee, every Seminar 18 years and all sections of the people of this and most of the eminent individuals had country will welcome this proposal. canvassed for the introduction of this Elec- toral Reform, namely, the reduction of age of But I want to point out that consequent the voters. This was voiced by a bro(1d upon to this Amendment, Section 19 of the spectrum of the body politic. In 1971, the Repi esentation of People Act 1950 ought to Petitions Committee of the Lok Sabha rev have been amended. It does not find a place olTlmended this proposal. Upon the dlrect;'/e i(t the Bill. It amends also the Representation of the Union Ministry Dr. Karan Singh went of the People Act, 1950. Section 19 lays into the subject and reported back in 1972 in down the Condition of Registlation. favour of this proposal. The Youth VJing of the Congress in Tirupati in August, 1984 and It lays oown this condition. "Subject to the National Convention of the NSUI hG!d in the 10regoi:19 provisions of this part, every September, 1984 also supported this plO- persun who (a) is not less than 21 years of posal and finally in September, 1988, NSUI age on the qualifying date." Therefore, con- National Council in Delhi demanded the sequent upon this upon the Constitution reduction of the age. Therefore, for the last amendment this Section 19 also ought to several years, this demand was there from have been amendea and I am surprised that several sections of the public and most of the that amendment does not find a place in the political parties as far as this reduction of age present amending bill. Now another bill will is concerned. It is natural because the age of be brought for the purpose. 1S years has been recognised as the adult- hood in law as far as several laws at e con- SHRI BIPIN PAL DAS (Tezpur): Mr. cerned, say, for example, the Contract Act, Dighe, the Law Minister is not listening 10 it. the Transfer of Property Act, etc. This is vert important.

Similarly, in the Criminall.aw also, a bey THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE of 18 years, if he commits a murder, he can MINISTRY OF LAW AND JUSTICE (SHRI be hanged. In the Marriage Law also a girl of H.R. BHARDWAJ): I am laking notes. 18 years -:an marry as far as the age is concerned. SHRI SHARAD DIGHE: Why not that be done now? Mr. Shankaranard, the law In many countries, the age of voting is Minister had said in the begining and now 18 years, say for example, USA, uK Can- that it will have to be donG later. But I say, ada, Australia, New Zeaiand, France, when you afp. already amending the R~pre USSR, China and also Sri Lanka and Burma. sentation of the People Act, 1950 along with this, why have you forgotten to amend that As far as recruitment to a particular one? What I feel is that inadvertently it has profession is concerned, I would say that in been left out and now that also will have to be this country the minimum age for recruiting a brought in, another bill will have to be passed Sepoy in the Army is 16 years so also in the by the House. And it will taka time. case of Navy, in Para-military fOlceS, which come under the Home Minister-the BSF. Similarly, there is a talk that ratification CRPF. Rifle Man in Assam Rifles and Sub- of this Constitution Bill by more than half the

Inspector in the BSF, CRPF, ITBP t Assistant States will be required. But I feel that the Commissioners in Delhi Police, Constables Article, 368 of the Constitution does not ~ 47 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 148 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[Sh. Sharad Dighe] tures were passed against a Secretary to the Government who had not followed the in- warrant it. Several articles which are men- structions of the Election Commissioner. But tioned for this purpose, do not cover this there also no action was taken by the State Article 326 which we are amending. Only Government. stretching imagination, we can bring this under (d) the Representation of the States in Therefore, there are many cases where Parliament. But I do not think that such an even though the Election Commissioner interpretation is warranted and the ratifica- recommends action against the officer for tion by the States, according to me, is not dereliction of duty, the State Governments necessary at all. protect their office(s and do not take any action. Therefore, they become bold and do As far as the Representation of the not foliow the instructions of the Election People (Amendment) Bill is concerned, Commissioner. Even in case booth captur- several good suggestions and proposals ing several instructions were issued by the have been incorporated in it. Many of the Election Commissioner to prevent booth Opposition members have taken objection capturing but they have been completely to the provision seeking to bring under the ignored. Nobody follows them and therefore discipline of the Election Commissioner the booth capturing goes on. Therefore it is a served officers and staff members would be very well intended suggestion that the staff working for the election. But I submit that no should be brought under the direct discipline motives may be attributed for this purpose of the Election CommiSSioner so that he can because there have been reports of several take disciplinary action if his instructions are election commissioners who s~y, that the not followed by the persons who areon duty. staff which is employed for the election purpose, if they commit any offer.ce. or any But as far as booth capturing is con- breach of duty. then they cannot be pun- cerned', a very good thing has been done to ished, And when their names are reported to preve'lt booth capturing. We have done the State Governments, the State Govern- three things. Firstly booth capturing has ments also do not take any note of those been deflnod. Secondly. it has been made a objections and the officers are let off. It has punishable offence. Up to now it could not be been reported that in one elec.tion after directly punished but it was punishable another, officers hav,=* been guilty of serious under the Indian Penal Code only. Thrirdly, dereliction of duty and yet no disciplinary we have made it also a corrupt practice. That action has been taken against them or the will also prevent booth capturing. Side by action taken has been inadequate. There- side we are providing voting by electronic fore, it is necessary to bring them directly machines. We have made this experiment in under the discipline of the Election Commis- a number of Constituencies in 1982 and sion there have been even cases in the 1983 Kerala and in otner State like Supreme Court and the High Court where Nagaland. Tripura and Bihar. But the elec- strictures have been passed. tion had to be struck down by the Supreme Court because there was no provision in the law. Now we are making this provision. In a High Court case in Bihar one Block Therefore it will be possible to make use of Development Officer had actually can- the electronic machines for the purpose of vassed for a candidates and strictures were voting. It is said that it will be introduced in the passed by the High Court. The matter was sensitive booths. We must have some faith reported by the Election Commissioner to in Chief Election Commissioner and I feel the Chief Secretary of the State. But benefit that wherever there are more probabilities of of doubt was given to that officer. booth capturing. the electronic machine will have to be used so that the muscle power will Similarly, 10 a case in Haryana, stric- be curtailed. 149 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23. 1910 (SAKA) Representation 150 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

Finally I suggest that this proportional for the Assemblies and local bodies? Our voting suggestion should never be ac- party suggested that for Assemblies and cepted.ltwillweakentheGovernments. You other local elections, it should be made as 21 will always have a coalition Governments. years. You will have weak Governments in the State as well as ;n the Centre if this propor- Everybody is saying that we are trying to tional voting system is adopted. bring the youth into the mainstream of the national body politic. But we are bringing As far as funding is concerned, I submit them only as the voters and only add them in that second look will have to be taken by the the list of voters instead of allowing the Government. I believe that the electoral re- younger generation to participate in the ac- form process is a continuous process and it tual functioning. I may say that they could does not end here. Therefore funding may have made an exception. They might have again be considered. left the qualifying age for standing to Lok Sabha as 25 years, but certainly in an As- With these words, I support the Bill. sembly by-election, it could be even done 21 or 22 years. If we can entrust the entire 16.47 hrs. district to an lAS officer, a big district of Bengal like 24 Parganas to one lAS officer CHaUDHARY KHURSHID AHMED who may be of 23 or 24 years, can we not (Faridabad): Mr. Chairman, I am grateful to entrust a smaller portion of that big district to Mr. Sharad Dighe that he had given a list of be reprE?sented in an Assembly? Can we not person of eighteen years who are competent entrust the municipal ward to a person who to be recruited for different jobs in different is only of 21 years? So, what we me giving walks of life. Also in this Bill, we have pro- this side to the youth, we are on the other vided the age of 18 years for being qualified side denying them the opportu.lity and al- to be a voter in any of the elections. This is a lowing them to stagnate for seven long welcomo amendment. Everybody has wel- years. After allowing him to vote ~t the age of comed it. We from the opposition had always 18 years and allowing him to ellter into the been advocating lowering of the voting age House only after 8 long years, that I think, is and some of the States where the opposition a lack of !X>nfidence in the youth of thIs Governments exist have already lowered country. Ever/body says that we are proud the voting age to 18 years and that experi- of the youth of this country. If that is so, at ment had been quite successful. There was leas you should bring another amendment no opposition from this side and it was al- and allow them to enter into the Houses of ways from the other side, the ruling party and the State Legislatures and other local au- they have challenged it in High Courts and thorities at the younge· age. Whereas eve- Supreme Court. If somebody says that we rybody else is conside ed responsible at the are claiming this credit, we do deserve it. We age of 21 but not the youth of the country for are claiming it very rightly. entering into the Houses of the State Legis- lature. To claim that the problem of youth would be solved by giving them simple right of voting is a misleading opinion. What the In this amending Bill, several clauses youth of this country needs today is proper have been added. An~ some of the new opportunities for jobs to relieve them the offences have been created. If somebody is frustration which they are facing in life. Now convicted under any of these offences, he we have given them only a voting right. will be disqualified for contesting the election. That is a welcome feature. But it could Could it not be possible to reduce the have been made more specific and a few age by three years for 4ualifying to be a other offences of moral turpitude and others candidates if not for the Parliament at least should have been taken in. 151 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 152 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[Chaudhary Khurshid Ahmed] ment of India. It would not be in the fairness of things to put them indirectly under a ruling Various points have been made with party which is having control at the centre. regard to the election expenses. From this So, this particulnr aspect has been ignored. side, we have said that the State should be The Election Commission has not been able to fund some of the election expenses given that independence which it needs if it in any marner possible. There may be is to supervise, control and to administer the complications. In every new thing, there are staff of the other States who are involved in complications. But because of the complica· the elections. tions we should not throwaway a suggestion which has been give:"! and which has been Then, Sir, I welcome the amendments practised in western countries with succes~. which have been able to give a claar defini~ tion to booth capturing and making it a spe- About Election Commission whether it cific offenc~ which under the electoral law, should be multi-member body or one renders a man disqualifiec. So, that also is member body, as we have bench in th'9 a wel.;ome step. It has baen said by our han. Supreme Court and the High Courts, can we Minister, Mr. Bhagat, that we have been not think of a multiple body as Election asking for more television centres and stiil Commission? We are giving too much of we are saying that It is not independent. But powers to one individual now who is sitting it remains a fact that most of the false prom- for the time being as an Election Commis- ises at the time of elections are made with full sioner. Most of the time, he is looking use of this media-the All india Radio and towards the Government. We can say that the Doordarshan. There have been many during the elections he is all independent. many promises made to most of the States He functions independently. He takes his on the eve of elections. We heard in 1987 own action under his own supervision. that ~:aryana would be given Rs. 400 crores When we are putting everybody under the and that was very widely teleVised and supervisioQ of the Election Commission propagated on radio. But till today we have during the elections, at least the Election not been able to receive that amount. A year Commissioner and the staff working under before. such a promise was made with re- him, should have nothing to do with the gara to Jammu ai"ld Kashmir also that Rs. Covernment. It should be totally independ- 1.000 crores would flow to the s~ate. After ent of any of the Ministries of the Govern- the et ctions, what certificate has the Cen- ment like the staff of the Lok Sabha Secretar- tral Government got from ... (Interruptions) iat or the Rajya Sabha Secretariat. Because if it is independent only for the time being for SHRI CHIRANJI LAL SHARMA (Kar- conducting a particular election, anybody nal): The amount sanctioned for SYL canal who is aspiring for promotion and other was also included in these R3. 400 crores. things would always look towards the Gov- Don't misrepresent the facts please. ernment and instead of acting as an independent body, most of them, it has been CHOUDHRY KHURSHID AHMAD: found, to be acting ClS an extension of the SYL was not covered under that agreement. Government ruling party. That suggestion, if It was an already committed expenditure. it has not been incorporated for the time Don't put the things in a twi~ted manner. being, may be brought immediately, By just SYL expenditure was already committed. putting the election staff under the supervi- That was not on the election eve. It was a sion and functiondl control of the Election decision taken a few years Commission during elections. would not back... (Interruptions) improve the things. It would be only putting those peopCe, who are from the States and SHRI CHIRANJI LAL SHARMA: That against whom grouses have been ex- amount ~s included in these Rs. 400 crores. pressed here, indirectly under the Govern- ... ( Interruptions) 153 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAVANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 154 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. again it was repeated, that is, The Janata party was routed out and Congress was CHOUDHRY KHURSHID AHMAD: brought back to power. You will get a chance and then you can have your say. I say that to put SVL expenses in 17.00 hrs. these Rs. 400 crores is only giving a false and twisted version to the whole grant. Sir, this shews that our people have attained Leave aside Haryana. It was only Rs. 400 the maturity in taking part in the elections. crores. You showered As. 1,000 crores on Sir, it also reflects the soundness of our Kashmir, but has it fallen on it? ** who is election system. In spite of the fact that there anally of the Congress (I), has given a very are certain drawbacks yet because of the brilliant certificate only a week sound election system and functioning of the back ... ( Interruptions) Election Commission independently and impartially, these elections have been pos- MR. CHAIRMAN: The name is ex- sible. Well. at the Centre there is one party punged from the record. and in some states other parties are ruling. When the elections are held different parties PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ(Baramula): come to power and by this, we can proudly Mr. Chairman, Sir, may be he is quoting out say that the election system in our country of context. has stood the test of time, We can compare ourselves to many other democratic coun- CHOUDHRY KHURSHID AHMAD: tries in so far as sound elections are con- Well, you quote him in a proper context and cerned. But at the same time, no system is then prove whatever you want to. But what- absolutely perfect.' There may be draw- ever I have heard, I have told and whatever backs and it requires time to improve the has come in the Press, everybody has seen system perfectly and we can now only re- that. So, Sir, this is a fact. These false duce or minimise the drawbacks. This Bill promises are widely propagated on the which is under discussion is a step in that p~blic media and that should be stopped by direction. putting it underthecontro! of an independent Commission. Thank you, Sir. Sir, some of the Opposition Memoers who spoke before me wanted an immediate PROF. P.J. KURIEN (Idukki): Sir, both change and they were asking for a compre- the Bills under consideration, the Represen- hensive bill including everything that they tation of the people (Amendment) Bill and want and everything that they imagine the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, are his- shoulck>e incorporated in the Bill. Sir. this is toric ones. When this Government come a dangerous preposition. In matters like this, into power under the dynamic leadership of we have to proceed courteously. Sir. while Shri Rajiv Gandhi, in the first year itself the introducing the Bill, the hon. Minister himself Anti-Defection Bill was brought which was said that this bill was only a first step and unanimously passed by this House. This Bill when time comes and if we want more which is under consideration is a step fur- amendments, at that time we can think of ther. a step forward to improve the quality of further amendments. Indian politics and polity. Everybody, I am sure, will agree that our election system has Sir, a number of members from the stood the test of time. This has been said by other side spoke about the impartial conduct many hone Members. of the elections. I am surprised to know that they doubted the impartiality of the Election Looking back to the General Elections Commission. They also questioned w' ythe held in the country. in 1977, the party in officers deputed for the elections work l power was routed out of power. In 1980 should be brought under the d : citlfine and

**Not recorded. 155 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14. 1988 Repf9sentation 156 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

(Prof. P.J. Kurien) enced, I was elected with the highest majority ever in Kerata. that is, 1,35,000 and odd superintendence of the Election Commis- votes. but the difficulty was that as a candi- sion. They seem to forget that it is under this date I was to struggle and I could not spend Election Commission the T elugu Desam even fraction of what he spent. still people came to power by winning the elections. Mr. elected me. But as a candidate I felt very bad Madhav Reddi is not here. But I would tell because I had no money. If there is elect: )n him that they came to power in their state funding, there should also be a control on the under this Election Commission. Again Shri expenditure on election. It can be done in V.P. Singh was elected under this Election various ways. It has also been suggested by Commission. They seem to have forgotten some Members-No.1 is, the campaigning all this reality. So, it is very clear that the days can be reduced. No.2 is, I feel that Election Commission is absolutely inde- statutorily we can limit the. number of ve- pendent. Sir. I could not understand why hicles to be used, number of posters to be there should be opposition for registering of used, even the use of cars, mikes and all the political parties. Some other Members that. This should be considered by the asked why there should be registration. Government. This should be considered so When Mr. Goswami spoke, he made it very that in the real election field, the real, genu- clear. I should say that the cat is out of the ine candidates will not face such problems. bag now. His party believes in socialism. But at the same time, he asked why the party Sir, about the question of mUltipurpose should say that they believe in socialism identity cards, I am one who says that it which is in the Preamble of the Constitution. should be introduced. The reason is my Sir, in the Preamble of the Constitution, experience in Kerala only. I have no experi- Socialism, democracy and secularism, all ence about other States. But I say in Ker- the three corner stones of our country, are ala-the MarXist Government is in power, there. The fact is that some of the opposition they are fOI manipulations and for imper- parties find themselves difficult to consume sonation in the elections. In the Panchayat it. They cannot really adhere to this because elections, in elections for cooperative socie- they don't really believe in it. Therefore, I can ties. exactly that is what is happening there. understand their difficulty in giving applica- All kinds of election malpractices are there. tion to the Election Commission saying that Therefore. I would request that for the proper they believe in these principles and they and impartial conduct of elections at least in believe in the preamble of the Constitution. Kerala and West Bengal this multipurpose identity card system should be introduced. Sir. much has been said about the fund- iog of the elections. I personally feel that Mr. Somnath Chatterjee was speaking there should .be some assistance from the very much about the election expenditure, exchequer. I am not saying that money especially about the corruption by the Ruling power can influence the electorate. It is not Party. I was surprised to hear this. How like that. But I myseH have got experience could he forget that his own friends are doing when I contested the last election in my own the same thing in Kerala? What is happen- constituency. A very rich person contested ing in Kerala ... (lnte"uptions). In West Ben- as an independent candidate against me in gal? I know about Kerata. so I say this, they my constituency. He was pouring money cannot do anything else in West Bengal, I like anything. I think he spent at least Rs. 5- admit. Sir, for conducting a rally at Alleppey 6 million. He is a very very rich person and the Marxist Communist Party spent more he was floodjng the constituency with post- than two crores of rupees. Now. the 13th ers, with banners and he was paying to every Party Congress is going to be held in Trivan- worker, like that he was spending. And, Sir. drum and the expenditure is going to be I had no money, Jhad to face difficulties. But more than five crores of rupees. With all this with all this, the electorate was not infJu- Mr. Somnath Chatterjee is blaming the 157 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 158 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

Congress Party. How can he blame the ward to incorporate all the new suggestions. Congress Party? Is it that he is ignorant of what his friends are doing in Kerala? Hear- As regards the delay, I do feel that ing his speech I was only praying, 'Lord, perhaps there has been a slight delay in forgive him, he does not know what his bringing forward these two Bills before the friends are doing in Kerala.' Sir, if you want House. But the Government has a good impartial elections in the States of Kerala reason for that and I congratulate the hone and West Bengal, I would earnestly re- Law Minister because he has taken the quest-the Law Minister is there; hone Law initiative and has now brought these two Bills Minister, if you cannot bring this multipur- before the House, the acceptance and ap- pose card system in all States, I have no proval of which will go a long way in strength- complaint, but bring it in Kerala and West ening our democracy and in giving a quality Bengal. Otherwise there will be no free and to our democracy. fair elections in those States. That is the attitude of the Marxist Government. The decision regarding reduction of age from 21 to 18 years is a very important step. With these words, I support both the a very important measure which the Govern- Bills. ment has taken and it has been welcomed by one and all. There is absolutely no contro- 17.09 hrs. versy about it. I congratulate the Govern- ment on having come forward with the pro- SHRI SURENDRA PAL SINGH (Bu- posal. The decision is absolutely in tune with landshahr): Mr. Chairman, Sir, the two Bills the present politiaal climate in the country which are the subject matter of today's dis- and the present thinking. The youth of today. cussion have been welcomed by one and all we are all aware, are very well educated; in the country. I have listened to the they are enlightened, well informed and they speeches of hone Members on the opposite have the political perception of the world side and from that I have deducted that they around them. They are bubbling with energy are not very much against the proposals and ideas to contribute might, therefore, which have been made in these B ills. They towards making India a better country. It I. have faulted the Government only on two in the fitness of things that in recognition ot accounts. First, they feel that the scope of this spirit, they should be given an opportu- the Bill is not wide enough and many of the nity to participate in the electoral process recommendationson electoral reforms have and to be a party to the formation of the not been incorporated in this Bill. Secondly. government of their country and we should they feel, there has been a delay on the part benefit from their ideas, from their energies of the Government in bringing forward these and from their enthusiasm. two legislative measures. When I first read the Bill, I too felt that perhaps the scope of the Bill could have been enlarged. But after In this connection, I have only one listening to the remarks made by the hone humble submission to make. There are still Law Minister and after listening to what Mr. a number at formalities to be completed 3adgil had to say about it, I am now con- before this measure becomes an Act. My vinced that perhaps the Government has a only request is that those formalities should valid reason for not incorporating other rec- be fuHiUed as early as possible so that these omrr.endat!t)ns. But I am sure that the young voters of ours are able to participate in Government and the Law Minister have an the next elections. If that is not done, my fear open mind on it and I am sure. all the sugges- is that it will lead to frustration and this whole tions that have been made on this side or the exercise might prove counter-productive. other side of the House will be considered in Necessary steps should be taken to fulfil all depth ~md later on, if need be, another the formalities to convert bring this Bill into comprehensive BiI1 coned be brought for- an Act as early as possible. 159 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 160 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) sn!

ISh. Surendra Pal Singh] sory for the State machinery and State Government to use mobile booths for the It is said that the health of a democracy benefit of the weaker sections of our society can be gauged by the quality of its electoral like the Scheduled Castes and minorities process. During the last 40 years, we have who are prevented from casting their votes had many elections in our country. They at the time of elections. It has been noticed were held very successfully, they were fair that despite all the efforts that have been and impartial, which go to show that parlia- made by the Election Commission and the mentary system of government has taken Government. these weaker sections are roots in our country. Our democracy is prevented from using their franchise. It will strong; its roots are strong. This is a remark- be very useful if mobile booths are intro- able achievement for third world country, duced compulsorily by the Government and and an achievement. which I am sure, no these mobile booths can go to the areas other country of the Third World can boast of. where poor people live, so that they can cast But having said that, I must admit that, of their votes without any hindrance. late. we have been observing that certain pernicious malpractices have crept into our The third suggestion in this regard is electoral process. that if booth capturing has taken place in any place and the subsequent inquiry has re- 17.14 hrs. vealed that the followers of a particular party have indulged in booth capturing. then it is [MR. DEPUTY -SPEAKER in the Chair] my humble suggestion that the candidate of that party should be disqualified straightway. As has been 'TIentioned by a large He should not be allowed to contest the number of Members. the most prominent of· eJection there from. I say this because booth those are the use or the emergence of capturing cannot take place without the muscle power in elections. or use of money connivance and approval of the candidate power in elections. I am glad that these evils himself. Unless and until we are in a position which have emerged have been taken note to punish the concerned party and the can- of by the Government and ample provisIons didate. I doubt very much if all these laws have been made in these two Bills to meet and penal provisions which are included the situation. there can eradicate this evil. The fact of the matter is that no system of punishment can On this occasion. I would like to make a really stop it. The real solution lies in the fact few practical suggestions for the considera- that there should be a firm commitment on tion of the hon. Law Minister which. I if the part of all political parties. the Govern- accepted and approved, might be helpful in ment machinery and the public at large to curbing the practice of booth capturing. keep election free and fair these three elements can cooperate with each other and My first suggestion in this regard is that. carry out their responsibility properly, then while I welcome the introduction of the auto- alone we can stop this evil practice. matic voting machines, -they will be very helpful, no doubt-but, I am not prepared to A great deal has been said about money beheve that these machines can stop the power and funding of elections. It is a fact, malpractice of impersonation and the other whether we adm it it or not. that money power malpractices like booth capturing. To stop today does playa very big role in elections. that, it is my suggestion that even if it be a Personally, I am very unhappy about it. very costly affair the Government should There are two aspects of this problem. One issue identity cards to all voters. I know it is the acceptance of donations by political costa a lot of money but without that, I feel. parties from large business houses for fi- you cannot stop impersonation. nancing elections. The other aspect is expenditure of an individual candidate which is Secondly, it should be made compul- 161 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23. 1910 (SAKA) Representation 162 Second Amdt.) Bill & of P90p/s (Amdt.) Bill escalating by leaps and bounds and the Rs. 10. 000/- and in the case of those who elections have become very very expensive are contesting the Assembly Eledions, it indeed. I am not very happy with the system should be raised to Rs. 5,OOO/-ln making this of donations at all because I feel that the suggestion. I don't say that this will stop or money which the party accepts from others eradicate the evil altogether. But. it will is tainted and has strings attached to it. But. certainly discourage those candidates who

at the same time. I am at a loss to suggest as enter the fray just for the sake of publicity t or to how we can get out of this system and contesting the elections for the fun of it. That practice I: What can be done about it? After kind of an element can be eliminated alto- all. political parties do need money for elec- gether by raising the security deposit. Of tions. But. my request is that this whole course, it will not prevent the practice wholly. question should be gone into in depth. I But it will certainly reduce its incidence. Sir, request the hon. Minister to find some way you have rung the bell, and I have said what whereby we can be freed from the clutches I wanted to say. I thank you very much. of the money bags in elections. As regards indeed, for giving me this opportunity to the election expenses. the expenses have speak I fully support these Bills. become so high that it has become impossible for an ordinary citizen to contest elec- PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ (Baramulla): tions. One has to look right and left for help. Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, at the very outset, H help is not forthcoming. difficulties and I want to say that I appreciate the Govern- hurdles will be created and it becomes very ment of India's response to the aspirations of difficult to contest the elections. If a candi- the people of this country, so far as the date accepts that help, then in my opinion, electoral reforms are concerned. There are that particular candidate sells his soul and two Bills in this connedion before us. As far conscience to somebody who gives that as the Constitution (Amendment) Bill is money. I am not in favour of it. ~ome way concerned, I must congratulate the Govern- must be found whereby all these citizens of ment for reduci~ the voting age from 21 this country who are not rich can contest years to 18 years. There is no time. There- elections. ,Otherwise. I only very rich people fore, I would not like to go into the details of can ~ •• ~test elections and an what Shri Somnath Chatterjee said. Now the average rean wiU not be able to do so and if Government has accepted it. It may be the he does so. he will do so with the help of demand of the people. But, the Government blackmoney which I am not in favour of. This of India has responded to the demand of the is a matter .which. I think. should be given people. A very big chunk of new voters will be very serious thought. Something must be coming forward tQ vote. I think they are done by the Government. nearly four crores or so. Therefore. it will be a feather in the cap of Shri Shankaranand. I Lastly. t would like to mention something must congratulate him for this ... (/nte"up- about the non-serious candidates who are tions) We have to see whom it is going to contesting forth. fun of it. Many of them just benefit. The future is uncertain. We cannot contest eledions for the sake of getting say which party is benefiting from this. We do publicity or for the sake of introducing them- not know about it. But, as of now, I want to selves in the constituency. Some, indeed give credit to the Government of India for are those who are put up by political parties this. So far as the Representation of the to harm others. The other reason is the lure People (Amendment) BiR is concerned, the of money. 1think aU this vitiates the entire principal Act is being amended. I have gone atmosphere. I am not in fawur of it at all. through the Bill minutely. But. there is no How 10 atop it, ...,a.rb a. Is the problem time to go through Clause-by-Clause. I see facing us now. My only suggestion with some good features in the BiI. Some of the regard to this is 1hat 1M security deposit in provisions are welcome. For instance, the caseofthese...,.. conIesting thelok Qause.4 has become a v_" compr8hen- SIbha...... ,.,.,..,.t.ast.to ..OM •• ..,take note CJf lhedisquaa. 163 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 164 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Arndt) Bill

[PlOf. Saifuddin Soz) capturing. this has become and offence and the explanation is very good. Explanation on tions. But, I would like to go a step further. r thi~ clause is very comprehensive. These don't want to go into the principal Ad, and are some very good provisions of the Bill. say how many disqualifications are there. But, I wonder why have we not touched the On the question of State funding. I am anti-Defection law. It has become a fashion inclined to agree. This is for the first time that to win the election on the symbol of a party I disagree with my very senior colleague on and then go against the party's interests and this side Prof. Madhu Dandavate for whom I no action is taken. So. if not now. even at have the greatest regard. Here, I agree with some future date, the hone Minister will have Mr. Gadgil, not with his calculation of the to respond to the need to enlarge the dis- finances that will be required. In that respect qualification of the whole list and bring the also, it is the poor man's money that will be Anti-Defection Law also because there are lost. As far as National Conference is con- many laws. This is the manual. You have cerned, Madhuji. we fought an election with clubbed all kinds of laws. When you think of Rs. 20,000 only. When we go to villages, disqualification, you go against the symbol; people offer tea, people'offer food. We don't you go against the party activity outside spend any money. Now I hear that you Parliament or inside Parliament. There is no require lakhs of rupees and jeeps and all that action. Therefore, I would like to say that and you want the States to fund the election. Clause 4 makes it comprehensive enough. By that time. the situation will be that money But, I would like to go a step further and say will be got from the Government and money that something should be thought of about Will be received from the private parties. I the Anti-Defection Law also. I welcome don't thInk our country is ready for this kind Section 5. Because of lack of time, I am of extravagance at this moment. Therefore, gOing very hurriedly. Section 5 says that the I disagree with Mr. Dandavate. (Interrup- staff drawn from Government Departments lions) will work under the Election Commission. who will be on deputation. Somebody raised Please, Give me a couple of minutes. the question of finances. They said that the This Bill is deficient in certain areas. In deputationists will draw deputation allow- Clause 6, the commiSSion gets very sweep- ance. My point is that the State Govern- ing powers an the Bill says:" Commission ments will have to be consuhed somewhere. may call for such other particulars as it may deem fit from the association or body" It is a That provision should be there. Many sweeping poV{er before the commission. I people have made this'demand. Mr. Chat- think, Mr. Hansrajji should note it because terjee has made this demand through his we wanted a multi-member commission. amendment. I have gone through his Han. Minister for Parliamentary Affairs is not amendment. I have also moved amendment here, he adVised us that one member that State Governments will have to be Commission is all right. but I am of the consuhed. I am not. as of now, going into my opinion that it could be a three-member amendment. I will move this amendment commission and that commission also later on. should n91 have sweeping powers like ~hi~. That commission can ask for any details it In Sedion 6, Part IV (A), regarding likes. You have not qualified commission's registration of politicaf parties. I would say powers here. that certain parties are already registered and those parties should not be again caJled Here. I agree with Madhuji who just upon to register with the election Commis- remembered the Lok Sabha staff while sion of India. . comparing the staff of the Election Commis- sion. It is going on record. Recently there In SectioR 1,5 which deals with booth was a Conference where we spoke, .. ~ goes 165 Constitution (Sixty- AGAAHAYANA 23.1910 (SAKA) ReprllSentation 166 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) SRI to the credit of Mr. Vithalbhai Patel. it goes to reforms; but the Returning Officer and the the credit of the father of the lok Sabha late Presiding Officer do not care about them. Dr. Mavalankar who created an institution Therefore by amendment I have suggested and we have had giants in Secretaries that the Returning Officers and the Presiding General.· Now lok Sabha staff is totalfy Officers will also be bound by the laws that impartia1. We give them a certificate. There- are provided in the book. fore. Commission's staff has to be impartial. It will not work under Government of India. It MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please con- will be in~ependent. Here, I support whole- clude. heartedly Madhuji. PROF. SAIFUDDIN SOZ: Please im- I also agree with Madhuji when he plement the principal Act, i.e. 1951 Act, you wanted deletion of expression like 'secular- will have a lot of reforms. We prepare the ism', 'socialism' and all that because you law, we enact the law; but we don't imple- have to salute the "Constitution of India as by ment. Therefore, when you reply to the law established and therein comes every- debate you give us an assurance that you thing. You may add 'unity and integrity of will not only implement the principal Act; but India.' But nothing more. you will also implement these amendments religiously. In Clause 11 recording of voting machine, we welcome it. But it should become [ Translation] uniform and it should be uniformly applied throughout the country. You say that the SHRI PRATAP BHANU SHARMA Election commission may ·decide having (Vidisha]: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, two Bills regard to circumstances of each ca5e in a have been introduced in the House today year specifically. This is a power to the concerning electoral reforms. ( believe both Election Commission. If you use voting these Bills, which are the result of years of machines, it should be used in the length and debate on etectorfil reforms will take care of breadth of the country. aU the issues including the one which deals with lowering the voting age and will prove to Then I come to the question of punish- be highly useful. ment. Sir, for the last four-five years, the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please con- demand to lower the voting age from 21 clude. You have already taken ten minutes. years to 18 years was being increasingly Please take your seat. aired. At the Indian Youth Congress Session in Tirupati in May 1984, a demand was put PROF. SAIFUDOINSOZ: Sir,lwilitake with one voice before th~ Hon. young Prime just two or three minutes. Minister. who was the General Secretary of AICC then, to lower the voting age from 21 As far as punishments are concerned, years to 18 years. I am happy, that today monitory punishment in terms of money is no Han. Prime Minister, has fuHilled the prom- punishment. Because you say two years ise he made to the youth of the country by rigorous imprisonment and there you say a intrpducing the 62nd Constitutional Amend- fine of Rs. 1000. What is As. 1000/- worth? ment Bill in the House. I want to congratulate When there is a default, it should be impris- him for this. f also want to cotJPratulate him onment and no fine. on behalf of the youths of my constituen~y for fuHilling the promise made to thein. Simi- I want the election manual to be rigor- larly. at the AICC session also, emphasis ously implemented because it is not being was laid on lowering the voting age from Z,1 implemented as of now. To the principal Act, years to 18 years by the delegates repre- i.e. the Act of 1951, there are so many senting all sections from aft States. Both the 167 Oonstltution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 168 Second Amdt.) BRI & 01 Peopls (Arndt.) Bill

(Sh. Pratap Bhanu Sharma] democracy it is the people's participation that strengthens the eledoral process Government as well as the hon. Minister of through which the Government is eleded. Law and Justice deserve congratulations. The eleded representatives run the Govern .. for incorporating the suggestions in the Bill ment. But if there is State for funding of and introducing the Bill at the appropriate elections, 1here will be no distinction be- time. tween the Government and the people's representations. Therefore, this distinction Sir. besides this Bill. the Peoples Rap- has to be maintained. What is special about resentations (Amendment) Bill, 1988, seeks democracy is that it is the Government of the to alter the electoral process as also the people, by the people and for the people. minimum qualifications in order to The importance of the cooperation and in- strengthen the democratic process so that volvement of the people in democracy can- the candidate who is not able to safeguard not be undermined, because maximum the interests of the country and the people participation of the people is the source of its does not contest the election. Such candi- strength. I am against accepting donations date are guided by seHish. regional and from big people and instead favour accep- religious considerations and have the ten- tance of small donations from the common dency to commit social and economic of- people, instead of the state funding of the fences. But somehow or the other, they try to elections. The Government is requested to get elected. The Representation of the bring forward an amendment, proposing People (Amendment) Bill , has a proviSIOn to code of conduct to be followed by all the debar all persons who prepetulate social political parties so as to check corruption and evils and vitiate the atmosphere in the name excessive expenditures. At the same time, of community for serving their narrow per- there should be a provision to ensure thatthe sonal interests from contesting the elections returns of election expenses to be flied to Legislative Assemblies and Parliament. should be realistic enough to avoid conceal- The hon. Minister deserves congratulations ment. for incorporating this provision. It would have been.better had the scope of this provision Some hon. Members drew the attention been widened to include all those political of the Central Government towards the parties, who take recourse to regionalism, promises made by it to the Government of commun~isrn and use religion for furthering Haryana. However, the conduct of the Chief their political ambitions, so that the candi- MInisters of the opposition and the perform- dates sponsored by them could be disquali- ance of the Opposition Government in Hary- fied from contesting elections. This could be ana coupled with corruption, bankruptcy and a big contribution to the democratic system non-fulfilment of the promises made by the of the country. I hope the present Bills pro- latter, are in the knowledge of all. But, now vide for the inclusion of all the suggestions they are unnecessarily trying to shift the that may come up from time to time in future. blame on the Central Government. This should not be allowed. (Interruptions) ... This is in reply to what they have said. Some hon. Members raised the demand of the State funding of elections. There is no difference of opinion about the exces- In the end. f want to congratulate the sive election expenditure. However, it would young Prime Minister Shri Rajiv Gandhi, be better to think in terms of limiting election under whose leadership the country has expenditure and putting checks in order to progressed a lot during the last four rears, in ensur. that the money $0 spent is not made the soaaJ • economic. agricultural and indus- good thIough unfair means. In the event 01 trial fields. He also de.serves congratulations Stale ...... 0( eIedioaf. democrq wiI.be tor britlging forward these two biBs to ftOIhing GIl ..o..mm.ae machinIrJ. 1ft deanM ... pubic life. 169 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Representation 170 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

[English] ance against both the Bills. They have not spoken anything against the provisions of SHRI SOMNATH RATH (Aska): Mr. both the Bills. What they have stated is only Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support both an improv~ment upon the Bills and some these historic Bills. I congratulate the Leader changes. This is accepted now. Theconsen- of the House, Shri Rajiv Gandhi, and also sus opinion of the House is that both the Bills Shri Shankaranand who is piloting the Bill, should be passed. for having brought the revolutionary and radical changes in the electoral reforms. Sir, Many Members have stated about the the Congress Party has a tradition and it is independence of the Election Commission. that before any major decision is taken, it is The Election Commission of India is a Con- always preceded by debate and discussion. stitutional authority as perthe Article 324 (1). In the Congress Party, the Working Commit- The Commission since its inception con- tee has recommended the electoral reforms sisted only of the Chief Election Commis- and it was accepted by the All India Con- sioner and as the Supreme.Court has said, gress Committee. The Government has also Article, 324 is the reservoir of power for the consutted and discussed with the Opposi- Election Commission and the Election tion parties. Commission has got the reSiduary powers. There is no instance which can be cited In 1971 the Petition Committee of this when the political parties have interferred House recommended to reduce the age of with the functioning of Election Commission. the voters and as per the decision of the The suggestion is that the Election Commis- Cabinet, the then Minister of Tourism and sion should be appointed by a Supreme Civil Aviation want into the matter. He also Court Judge. Vice President etc. has no recommended that the age should be re- meaning because even the Supreme Court duced. So, Sir it is the Congress Party. the Judge or the Chief Justice of Supreme Court Congress Government which had initiated or High Court is being appointed by the the measure to reduce the age and it was President of India. So, there is no gain- implemented by the Congress Government saying that the Election Commission, being alone, not by any other government who appointed otherwise should be an independ- intervened for a few years in the meanwhile. ent organisation.

Sir, the Congress Party and the Party In this Bill, Sir, what is rigging and what Leader Shri Rajiv Gandhi has profound faith is booth capturing, has been clearly defined in the youth force of India. In our freedom which was not there earlier. Punishment is movement the youth force had played a also being levied for booth capturing and great role. Shrimati Indira Gandhi in her rigging besides disqualification. childhood formed the Vaner Sena. She had to sacrifice, she was imprisoned and she Not only these persons who committed fought against the British Government. So, it offences under the Indian Penal Code and is Congress Party which has taken the lead convicted for more than two years are dis- in the freedom movement even before the qualified. But those persons who committed Independence, through the -youth force of offence under other laws such as the Food the country. Our election system has stood Adulteration Act, Customs Act, FERA. Sati, the test of time. Under the changed circum- etc. are also to be disqualified for six years. stances, it is necessary that the electoral So, this Bill is practically an eye-opener to reforms should be made and accordingly those persons having criminal record and feeting the pulse of the people and youth they should be cautious of their adions if force of the country. these electoral reforms they intend to be the citizens of India. have been introduced. Some members have said that registration of potitical parties need not be iMisted 171 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 172 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Arndt) Bill

{Sh. Somnath Rath] FORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI H.K.L.BHAGA n: If the House upon. As we all know, on many occasions we agrees, we have no objection to sit after 6 0' take shelter under the Constitwtion in this clock. House. When we speak about an Act or a Bill with which we disagree, we say that it is not SOME HaN. MEMBERS: No, no. constitutional. Then, why should we object to the provision in this Bill which says that SHRI H.K.LBHAGAT: It has been de- 'he association or body shall bear true faith cided by the Speaker that clause by dause and allegiance to the Constitution of India as consideration should start by 11 o· clock by law established and to the principles of tomorrow. So. it is better if we sit late today. socialism, secularism 'and democracy, and would uphold the sovereignty, unity and in- PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: We tegrity of India? have no objection.

We know that today there are forces MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is it the con- inside India who want to destabifise the sensus of the House to sit for one more Government and they induJge ;n secession- hour? ist activitjes. Under these circumstances, let those political parties who have no faith in SEVERAL HaN. MEMBERS: Yes these secessionist movements and who do please. not support them at all, come forward and accept this provision. Because of the SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA (Ponnani): changed times and the prevailing situation, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sir, the House is this provision has been included and it considering certain, specific Electoral Re- st*uld be adhered to. forms. At the outset, I must express my deep appreciation of the political intelligence and About the issue of state-funding, the sagacity of the Indian voters. Indeed the less said the better it would be. State-funding credit for the survival and stability of democ- will not solve the problem of malpractices at racy goes to our electorate. The Constitution all. It will only add to the corrupt practices and (Amendment) Bill seeks to lower the mini- lead to the misuse of more funds and spend- mum voting age from 21 years to 18 years. ing more money to get votes. I thank the Government for having responded to this popular demand and having Similarly. about proportional represen- responded to the aspirations of the youth. tation. I feel that it will not suit our country. Indeed, the youth have proved themselves Ours is a vast country. This concept has quite capable of shouldering this confidence been experimented in some other countries. that has been reposed on them. In fact, our But they are also now thinking of changing it. youth have been playing a very major role, a In fact some countries like France have very active role in almost all the elections we changed it also. Underthese circumstances, have had till this date. I must however say the system that is prevailing in our country is that there are haH-hearted salutes that are the best suited and if any improvements are being given to the youth; here in this Ho~se. required for holding free and fair elections, Indeed, it is a great achievement, a radical the Government witJ come forward in due amendment to extend franchise to all those course with those changes. above the age of 18 years. But at the sametime, I am constrained to say that the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Shan we youth of our country do not get aU that is ,due extend the House by one more hour? to them and that our salutes to the youth are only haH-hearted. THE MINISTER OF PARLIAMEN- TARY AFFAIRS AND MINISTER OF IN- As a corollary to the lowering of the 173 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23.1910 (SAKA) Representation 174 Ssco,?d Amdt.) 8171 & of People (Amdt.) SiD minimum voting age, there ought to have States and the districts. The entire electoral been also the lowering of the minimum age machinery must be independent, and fully required to contest as candidates in the under the control of the Election commis- elections. There the age remains at 25 years sion, and then the Election Commission at and that every person who wishes to contest the Centre should be independent and must for the Assembly or the Lok Sabha must be not function in any way under the Union of a -minimum age of 25 years and if he government. I, therefore. insist that the en- wishes to contest the Aajya Sabha elec- tire electoral machinery. the entire Election tions, then he must be of a minimum age of Commission, its staff even at the State level 30 years. That is Article 84 . I am sorry that and the lower levels must not be on mere as a corollary to the Amendment to Article deputation from the State Governments; but 326 lowering the voting age, this Article 84 they must be independent staff for all times has remained or has rather been ignored. It under the Election Commission. These haH- is absolutely essential that the age for con- hearted measures for independence do not testing elections ought to have been simulta- solve the problems that are before us. neously reduced to 21 years. Here in the House we were told and I may recall the Then we have the question of the multi- words of the hon. Member Shri Gadgil who member Election Commission. We have said, a You pass the Bill and throw open the been told nothing, except that the portals of the House to the Youth of the Constitution also provides for it. But I must country". I am sorry, we are only extending ask the Government and the Law Ministerto them the right to vote. but the portals of this take the House into confidence as to House are not open to the youth. We still whether they intend t, have a multi-member want to keep them for ourselves. Election Commission, or not. Then, it is not merely a question of having a multi-member Similarly, the Minister for Parliamentary ElectIon Com'mission. We are not asking for Affairs, Shri Bhagat, said "The Youth look a multI-member Election Commission after India better than us."These are glowing merely for the sake of form. There are also tributes to the youth but still we are not doing deeper questions with respect to the ap- full justice to them. I therefore demand that pointment of the Election Commission, their the minimum age required to be elected to terms. their service conditions, the condi-· the Lok Sabha and to Rajya Sabha also tions of removal and so on. It is necessary should duly be lowered. For the Lok Sabha, that the Constitution and the relevant Article we must lower the age from 25 to 21 . 324 about the Election Commission should be duly amended to provide for the appoint- VVe have spoken at length about the ment of all the members of the multi-member independence of the Election Commission. Election Commission in the manner in which The amendment to the Representation of the Judges of the Supreme Court are ap- the People Act speaks about the control of pointed. It must be specified also that 1')0 the Election Commission on the State elec- member of the Election Commission can be toral machinery. and speaks about the staff removed save and except in the manner in being on deputation to the Election Commis- which Supreme Court Judges are removed. sion. This mere deputation business will not Today, even if a multi-member Commission suffice, in orderto ensure the independence is appointed, a member of the ElectIOn of the machinery. An officer who is on depu- Commission can be removed on the mere tation still has an eye on the State Govern- advice of the Chief Election Commissioner. ment. He knows that he may be required or, That is a very unhappy situation. We cannot may have to revert back to his cadre or post. call this a radical electoral reform. At the Therefore. it Js again a very halfhearted most, we cal'\ all them as some gimmicks measure. What is necessary is to have a fully that are being played. Sir, there is' also the • independent and autonomous Election question about the election commissioners Commission, right from the Centre to the taking up governmental ROsts after retire- 175 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Repressntation 176 Second Arndt.) Bill & of PsopIs (Amdt.) Bill

ISh. G.M. Banatwalla] Minister with respect to increaSing the facilities or providing facilities to those working ment. Suitable restridions may be placed abroad or residing abroad, to vote in the upon these and it is necessary. I am shocked elections has not found favour by the Gov- to find nothing here. ernment.

18.00 hrs SHRJ SHANTARAM NAIK: Some of them are residing in Canada. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please wind up. SHRI G.M. BANA TWALLA: I can understand that there are people working SHRI G.M.BANATWALLA: I have within the country, distant from their con- hardly started. stituencies. But as compared to such people who can easily return to their constituency to Since you have rung the bell, I will vote, it is difficult for those working abroad to simply run along .• giving some suggestions return to exercise their franchise. Therefore, rather than elaborating them. necessary facilities ought to have been extended to them. We are talking about elec- I must say that the electoral reforms are tronic voting devices. We are happy with it. by their very nature a continuous process But I am afraid now the elections and rigging and should not be treated as something that may not take another form of the rigging of can be completed at Cie stroke. I have been the machine itself ! Necessary precautions insisting not on mere political gimmicks but there are also necessary. on substantial reforms. There is hardly any substantial reform save and except the J must also insist on electoral rolls in the question of extending the franchise to those various languages being easily available in above the age of 18. the constituency in which those languages are spoken. I think, there are various sug- There is a clause here - Clause 6 about gestions that can be made for the improve- the registration of political parties. But for ment of the electoral procedure that is there what purpose? What are the consequences today. But the hon'ble law Min~ster has of registration? What are the consequences pointed out while piloting the Bm that as more of non-registration? A very purposeless and more experience is gained, the Govern- clause. I must say. that has been added over ment may come forward with more Bills fOf here with sweeping powers given to the improvement of the reform because the Election Commissioner. I must. therefor$. electoral reforms are a matter of a continu- strongly protest against such a purposeless ous process. clause and sweeping powers being given to the election commissioner. for no purpose With these words. while I welcome the whatsoever. This can only lead to various Constitution Amendment Bill lowering the complications rather than solving the pres- age to 18 years., I strongly protest against ent problems. Clause 6 amending the Representation of the People Act and ca~ling for a purposeless I must also insist upon proper facilities registration which is fraught with very to be extended to those Indian citizens resid- sweeping and unbridled powers to the Elec- ing or working abroad who wish to vote. We tion Commission. want theS8lndians residing abroad or working abroad to take greater and greater part in [ Translation] .. development of the nation. We have ..,. been inviting them for greater and SHm JAGANNATH CHOUDHARY ..... cxqIMIIion. but J am sorry to point (Ballia): Mr. DepulJ Speaker. Sir. Jlhankyou out ..our ...... made to the law tor giving me an opportunity to 8pMk In 177 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAVANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 178 Sscond Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill support of both the amendment Bills moved to go to the polling booth to exercise their in the House in connection with electoral right of franchise. Even after 40 years of reforms. independence, the Harijans do not exercise the right of franchise according to their will. I take this opportunity to congratulate Therefore, the Government should give it a the Hon. Prime Minister Shri Rajiv Gandhi for serious consideration and make arrange- realising the need for introducing electoral ments for casting of votes in the Harijan reforms within four years of his assuming bastis itself to enable them to caste the votes office though the shortcomings have been according to their free will, without fear and there ever since we achieved independence influence of the extremists and the land- 40 years ago. During this period, the process lords. of holding elections has been going on uninterrupted. Issue of booth capturing is raised. Booths are captured in full view of the senior The provision of lowering the voting age police officers and other officials, but none of from 21 years to 18 years is meant to encour- the officials present dares to resist booth age the youth and to associate them actively capturing. The point to ponder over is, why in the electoral process. Earlier, thEY did not the police do not interfere to prevent booth have voting rights, though they were helping capturing and instead insist on the complaint in the election process. It is the Congress to be lodged in writing ? Who can dare to Government which felt the needs for giving come forward to lodge complaint against the them the voting rights. landlords and incur their wrath? Therefore, the Government must take some steps to The hon. Minister of Law and Justice prevent booth capturing, which has become deserved congratulations for realising the a common fe~ture even during the general need to amend the constitution in order to elections. debar anti-social elements from contesting elections because with such elements in the I would suggest insuing identity cards to fray honest and sincere people are scared of the voters, because in the absence of iden- contesting elections. tity card, anyone can cast vote even upto 10 times without being detected. If the Govern- The Government will realise the gravity ment is really interested in preventing booth of the criminals contesting the elections from capturing and bogus voting, it must issue the level of Gram Panchayat to Lok Sabha identity cards to the voters and bear the and winning by huge margins, defeating the expenses on this account. upright persons who work among people day and night. So the need of the hour is to Issue of introducing electronic voting think about the tactics being adopted by machines is being debated. But some these people, who though remain behind the people say that it is a very costly proposition. bars, yet manage to defeat the sincere If we avoid such expenditure, free and fair persons who work 24 hours amidst the elections all over the country cannot be people . What happens is, that terror is ensured. In democracy, free and fair elel}- unleashed by these persons to win the tion is a pre-requisite. Therefore, if we want elections. I thank the hon. Ministerfordebar- to safeguard democracy and ensure free ring such persons from contesting the elec- and fair elections, this expenditure must be tions. borne by the Government.

The Government should also think over I do not agree with the suggestion made the question of denial of right of franchise to by all the political parties regarding state Harijans and weaker sections even after 40 funding of elections. But I would like the years of independence. The big landlords Government to bear the expenses required teU these people to remain indoors and not for buying electronic machines in order to 179 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 180 Second Arndt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) BI7I

[She Jagannath Chaudhary] for it in my own constituency. This would help in curtailing incidents of booth capturing. In have free and fair elections. the light of this the Government should make provision for issuing multi purpose identity I would like to submit that I represent cards and bear the expenditure without any Ballia constituency of Uttar Pradesh. The heSItation. The Government of Pakistan also victory of a Janata Party candida!e in the allowed the voters to cast their votes only elections in Sallia rests only on booth captur- through identity cards. The Government of ing. If there is no booth capturing, no Janata India too should follow the same system in Party candidate can dare to stand in the India The Government of Pakistan did not elections in this area. I have myself suffered issue those cards and the people had to get because of this. The President of Jdnata them prepared themselves. The Central Party has won twice because of booth cap~ Government should take a decision in this turing. I challenge that if there is no booth regard and implement it at the earliest. capturing, no Janata Party candidate can contest the elections. I would insist upon the I feel that the period of 21 days for Government to provide electronic ma- campaigning for the Parliament and legisla- chines. If free and fair elections are held in tive Assembly elections is too ling. It should Sallia, there would be no sign of Janata Party be reduced to 15 days for Parliament elec- left anymore. God knows what will happen tions and 11 days for legislative Assembly. jf free elections are not held there. The It would enable to reduce the campaigning consequences might be dangerous. Keep- expenditure to a great extent. If the candi- ing all these facts in view, I would urge our date contesting elections is popular with the young Prime Minister to take measures for people, ifthe people have full faith in him and holding free elections. I would like to con- his party, he would be able to complete his gratulate him because during his four year campaign in the given period. The Govern- tenure, he felt the need of electoral reforms ment should give a selious thought to the which would help in protecting the democ- matter. This modification should be included racy. while formulating the rules and regulations regarding electoral reforms. SHRI VIRDHI CHANDER JAIN (Barmer): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support It has been observed that the young the Representation of the people (Amend- voters in particular rub off the voting marks ment) Bill, which has been introduced in the and thus misuse their right of casting vote. House. I also ~upport and welcome the The ink u~ed for this purpose should there- Constitution Amendment Bill presented in fore be chemically processed in such a way the House. Since 1972 efforts were being so that it could not be rubbed off at least for made to reduce the voting age from 21 years the next three days. The Government should to 18 years. Now the han. Prime Minister has make some provision in this regard. If the taken a decision in this regard and thus Government does not take effective meas- boosted up the spirits of youth and made ure against the prevailing practice, the situ- them participate in the development, prog- ation may go beyond control. Therefore, ress and process of nation building. We special ink should be prepared which cannot admire the Hon. Prime Minister for this. fade for least next three days.

I would like to give some suggestions. So far as the independent candidates The hon. Minister has mentioned in his state- are concerned, I am of the view that they ment, the proposal of issuing multi purpose should not have a right to con!est elections in identity cards for which the existing laws are a democracy. Though my stand is quite adequate •• would like him to fully assure the harsh, yet the contestant who has full faith in House in this regard, because f have ob- democracy. should positively belong to a served that there is a long standing demand particular political party and the independent 181 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) Representation 182 Second Amdt.) Bi." & of People (Amdt.) Bill candidates should not be alluwed to contest Government will bring forward some reforms eJectipns. H at all they are allowed. stringent in the elections so that there may not be any provisions sh(Juld be made for them. So far discontent among the people. Sir, I have as the security d<'posit ls concerned, it gone through the Bill and I am not impressed should be Rs 5000 for Assembly candida- with the Bill because the em is inadequate ture'and Rs. 10,000 for Parliamentary candi- and I would say that it is also mischievous. dature. In the same manner thEt number of those who propose and second the name Now, Sir, the walls of Delhi are flooded should be increased to 21-25. StrICt provi- with colourful posters congratulating the sions should be made so that those who do Prime Minister for lowering the age of voters. not fuHil the required conditions are not per- Sir, before the Prime Minister entered poli- mitted to contest, otherwise they would tics, it was demanded by different political always remain a source of nuisance. I would parties and also the Joint Parliamentary suggest that the independent candidates Committee abolllt lowering of the age. In should not be allowed to contest elections at March , 1972 the Joint Parliamentary all. if that is possible, or if at all they are Committee suggested that Article 326 permitted, stringent provisions should be should be amended so that tbe age can be made for them. Elections should not be lowered. On 7th May, 1972, me then All . countermanded due to the death of an inde- Indian Jan Sangh party underthe leadership pendent candidate ... lIf11terruptions) of Shri Vajpayee demanded that the age from 21 should be lowered to 18 for voting It was done earlier but now there is no purposes. In 1974, the Tharkunde Commit- such provision. Th~refore, such a provision tee on elecforal reforms set up by Shr; Jaya should be included. Prakash Nafayan, recommended that voting age should be lowered to 18. In 1977, the Besides, communal organisations Cabinet Sub-Committee meeting of Janta should be properly defined. Political parties Party (.;overnment considered a number of misuse religious organisations. There is an proposals about the poll reforms and lower- Act to check this misuse but, more often than ing of the voting age was one of them. In not, it is violated. Therefore, I would suggest 1981 , an all -Party meeting was convened to consider this point as a disqualification. by the Janata Party President who also Besides, provisions have been made ii1 the recommended the same thing. In 1982, the Bill to disqualify the economic offenders or Election Commission endorsed the view of anti-social elements. I support these provi- the Joint Parliamentary Committee that the sions. voting age should be reduced.

With these words I support the Sir, in 1987 an All Party Conference Constitution sixty-second (Amendment) Bill convened in New Delhi pursued the same and the Representation of the People thing. This showed that it was a long- (Amendment) Bill. standing demand for lowering the age. So, the Ruling Party need not feel proud that [English1 they have done a great thing.

DR. A.K PATEL (Mehsana): Mr. Dep- About (egistration of political parties, I uty Speaker, Sir, I rise here to express my do not find any necessity for registration views abOut the electoral reforms Bill which because the intention is not clear. Reforms has been brought forward in this House. Sir, which were expected aie not brought out in since long. since the last General Elections this Bill. People expected good changes particularly, the people have been expecting which will create confidence about democ- that some electoral reforms Bill will be racy. But nowadays as we see, the way in brought because it was promised by the which elections are conducted. people are Prime Minister in public speeches that the losing hope, especially the educated group 183 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14, 1988 Representation 184 I Second Arndt.) 8111 & of People (Arndt.) BIR

[Dr. A.K. Pateq Speaker Sir. first of aU I express my support for the constitution (Sixty-Second Amend- of people do not even come out for voting. ment) Bill and the Representation of the The say, What is the sense of voting when People (Amendment) Bill . The youth of we don't get good results?' This is the gen- today is literate, awakened and fully conver- eral feeling. So, I would suggest, especially sant with politics. We are happy that for the to combat the money power, State fundinq tirst time after Independence, the Govern- was suggested by different Opposition par- ment has come forward with a Bill lowering ties, and I think it is a very good solution, but the voting age to 18 years. For this I con- it is knowing I)' omitted in this B,II. gratulate the hon. Prime Minister Shri Rajiv Gandhi. There were some reports in the past about booth-capturing, and the persons The introduction of this Bill has brought against whom there were complaints, were an awakening among the youth of our coun- not punished. try. An aspect which needs to be condemned IS that of booth-capturing. I have myself The Elections Commission is under the suffered on this account. In my constituency law Ministry and as you know there are very it is the B.J.P. which indulges in booth- bad precedents in the past. For example, the capturing. B.J.P. activists do not allow the present Governor of Gujarat was formerly people to cast their vote. Even so many Election Commissioner and he was given a years after Independence, they indulge in good post after his retirement. Like that, a such practices. (Interruptions)... It is the new person wilt be tempted to do the same B.J.P. activists who indulge in such thin_9s. I thing by obliging the Government to get a agree that. (Interruptions)... This causes good post after retirement. So this should be hardship to the honest people. It is for the stopped so as to create a healthy atmos- first time that booth-capturing Will be treated phere. as a cognizable offence. The people will be able to take direct action in such matters. For About electoral reforms. I would say this I thank the Government. that Doordarshan and All IndIa Radio are clearly favouring the Ruling Party. Now, The Amendments In the Representa- people have got hatred for it. They avoid the tion of people (Amendment) Bill are very news time, even children are betting daily on important. Important amendments have how many times our Prime Minister will be been made in the provision dealing with seen on the TV in a day. They know that this disqualification of candidates in elections. I is the practice. ThiS should be stopped and want to congratulate the hon. Prime Minister it should be an independent body. Shri Rajiv Gandhi for showing spec.ial ~on sideration towards women. For the first time Sir, the time does not permit me to say social offences like dowry and Sati and many things. About the amendment which I economic offences like hoarding, profiteer- have given I will speak in detail later on. I ing and smuggling have been included in would only say now that Doordarshan, All the list of offences, conviction in anyone of India Radio, the Police Department and which would render a person disqualified for other Departments should not be under the contestIng elections. Which supporting this control the Government. of Bilt I would like to put torward a few suggestions. I thank you very much for giving me this time. It is difficult for the common man to ( Translatonj contest eledians because of the heavy expenditure involved. The entire electoral SHRIMATI PATEL RAMABEN process should be completed in as .Iittle time ,RAWIBHAI MAVANI (Raj(ot): Ur. Deputy as possible. The time given to candidates for 185 ConstitutIon (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23.1910 (SAKA) Representation 186 S«:ond AmtIt.) Bill & of Peep,. (Amdt.J 8i1 electioneering should not exceed 15 days. My constituency lies in a disturbed belt After This will reduce electioA expenses to a Independence, this is the first time I have considerable extent. The fme of As 1000 been elected from there on a congress proposed for persons who disturb election ticket. In that oonstituency candidates and meetings should be increased to Rs. 5000/- voters are not even allowed to reach the This I will prevent people from disturbing polling booths. Since it is a disturbed area. election meetings. People who create distur- electronic voting machines.-ukf be most bances at election meetings should be se- welcome. verely punished. I am in favour of State funding of elec- Another sug~estion , want to give is tions. It is difficult for candidates from the that, with a view to red&Jcing the number of middle and lower classes to contest elec- non-serious cal1didates in the eledion. the tions against ti'ose who flaunt their money- amount of security deposit should be in- .,ower ~!.d even use muscle-power. The creased to Rs 20,000 on Rs. 25,000. This ml1dla-cl.sses do not have any links with amount sholJld be forfeited if the candidate industrialist€ like Tatas and Birlas. But there fails to secure at least 113 rd of the total are mp"y candidates and parties which get votes. funds it ~rn indu:trialists . These people dominat.J 'ver the contestants from the Issuing identity cards for voting is also worki' wc1a..: '1nfrom ,/llIages. State funding necessary. Booths are captured at many is necess.J'Y Ivr the ,."iddle and lower places and bogus votes are cast. In order to classes. How c~r I 1 person contesting the check the bogus voting, identity cads must Parliamentary elec ~n spend Rs 15-20 be issued to voters. crores on his elecb\. r) I;-ampaign? When people like me ~ntest~. _'Cl:ons in future we I thank you for your gesture of alloWing will be be hard putto span\.- 30 much money. a lady to express her views. We restrict our expenditur& t~e funds allotted to us by our Party. That i~ wn'1' I am KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE in favour of State funding. (Jadavpur): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I am grateful to you for giving me an opportunity Today we heard many speeches on to speak on the Representation of the people elections. It is regrettable to note the hap- (Amendment) Bill. Firstly I congratulate our penings in my State in the last elections. In hon. Prime Minister Shri Rajiv Gandhi for West Bengal 22,000 candidates were not giving voting rights to our youth. Hon. Shn able to file their nomination papers in the I~ Shankaranand also deserves congratula- election. The C.P.1. and the Socialis~ tion for bringing forward this Bill. will vouch for tHs. Cabinet Ministers·in the C.P.1. (MJ Government in West Bengal criti- I feel that identity cards are a must. I cise the C.P.1. (M) activists for beating the have observed the electoral process in sev- people and not letting them cast their votes. eral statesduring different general elections How will the common man in our country be and by-elections. We are proud of India able to vote ? We had defined democracy being a democracy but there are people who as:- use their money-power and muscle-power during elections. A number of parties man- [EngliSh) age to fetch votes by booth-capturing in elections. So I favour the idea of issuing Government of the people. by the identity cards. people and for the people.

[ Translation] Thefe is a proposal to instals 150 elec· tronic voting machinea in sensitive areas. But now the definliGn • 187 Constitution JSixty- DECEMBER 1... 1988 ~188 s,cond Amdt) Bill & of People {AIpdt} SlI

(Kumafi Mamata Banerjee] aware of the Party to which the candidate belonged. A lot of expenditure was incurred. IEngIi$h] People in the area questioned me on the source of these Funds, and how this cand.. Government of the masses, Govern- date was able to contest the elections. V.P. ment by the masses. and Government for Singh had been wondering as to how he the masses. would be able to contest election in the absence offunds. We went there. We visited [Translation] the village of the Raja of Manda. Over there we saw -the flags of B.J.P. goondas of- - This defmition should be properly ad- and lathi wielding activists of C.P.I. (M). This hered to by-all States. H I speak against the is how election was contested by the Raja of West Bengal Government, they pay that I Manda. Previously he used the Bofors issue am doing so because I belong to Congress to make some political capital. Now the (I). But in West Bengal, a Cabinet Minister of Bofors issue has become stale and so has C.P.I. (M) Government publicity criticised his the Raja of Manda This is how elections are Chief Minister why do I say that West Bengal gone through. Votes are captured through and Haryana should be identified? The last mu~le power, money power, booth rigging bye-e1ection saw a wide spread use of and booth capturing . Sir, therefore, such muscle-power for getting votes. This is not things needs to be checked in our countrv. the proper way. I would suggest that first of all *. because in his State the death of Here every person has a right to cast Supriya occurred. In hiS State. ** vote and contest elections but there should be some system for it. No discrimination People who indulge in such things when should be practised against anyone and the in power should be disqualified. (Interrup- Government should have a uniform pofacy in tions) thiS regard. Today ,look at the police. look at the Administration, all have become de- Sir, political leaders should be .... stroyers. In the morning Mr Somnath Chat- terji referred to the statement of Shri Ghani [English) Khan Choudhury in which he had asked the Government to supply stenguns to the con· Political leaders are for prosecuting, not gress workers. I want to teU you that C.P.M. for profession. workers there daily beat our workers, that is why he has asked for provldmg stenguns for [Translation] seH-defence. The Government there has itseH provided weapons to C.P. M. workers in A political leader murders a woman and Darjeeling. I request Prof. Dandavate togo burns a man on hiS farm house. When such there and see with his own eyes and if it is things are happening on his farm house, found wrong he may bring a privilege motion how £an he look after the com mon man in his against me. He may visit Darjeeling and see $late? What are these people contributing to the state of affairs prevailing there. Democ- the nation? They are indulging in anti-social racy cannot be run like this. activittes. Such people should be disqualified. Nobody should be above the law. The It has also been stated that Congress Government should give it a thought Party gets money from Tatas and BirJas but from where they get? Today Tatas. Bil'las, I want to say something about the reg- Rajourias and Fatehpurias all have become istration of political parties. In the AUahabad theirfriends. A small party with a small offICe election we saw that viUage~ were not have been able to have a big party office like ~ed as ordered by the Chair I ~ afOfCknd by the Chair. 189 Constltufiot{(SiKty- AGRAHAYANA 23,1910 (SAKA) • Reprssentation 190 SeaJnd Arndt.} SUI & of Peop/9 (Amdt.) Bill a five star hotel. From where this money has sepahela come? TherefOre, we must have an objec- Khuda banda sa puchhe bata teri raza tion on party-registration. Some days ago a kiya har conference of their party was held and each delegafe was provided with food worth Rs. [English] 1001- Per head and one bag containing toothpaste, tooth-brush. powder. snow. MR.DEPUTY·SPEAKER:~am,~e soap and one dozen digestive pilts for use if allegation you made against wiD not go on something goes wrong due to overeating. record. So from where they get this money? It is, therefore, necessary that such a policy SHRI SHANTARAM NAil< (Plinaji): Sir, should be framed so that acommon man has there are so many •.... not to face any difficulty. MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am telling I want to submit one more point. Today about the ••..• tA.S.and I.PS. officers in our State have I don't think there is any • .... this House. started indulging in politics. Thus how can we expect free and fair elections there. The MA. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: ShriN. V. N. Government should set up an independent Somu. election machinery. Hthis work is entrusted to the State Government. we cannot expect SHAI N.V.N. SOMU (Madras Noeth): a free and fair elections as I.A.S. and I.P.S. Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Sir, at the outset, I officers will directly involve themselves in want to ask the Minister why they are not them and totally follow the instructions of the holding electioos to the two parliamentary State Government. Some days ago it has constituencies along with the Tamil Nadu been reported in a newspaper that an I.A.S. Assembly elections which ara supposed to officer in a meeting of the CPM Party stated take place on January 21? The Madura; that Mamata would lose the election. An Parliamentary constituency and Karur Par- I.A.S. officer is not God to declare as to which liamentary ...• constituency seats are lying party will win the election and who will lose it. vacant for more than one year. When ~ey I request Prof. Dandavate to visit my con- are holding e!ections for 234 Assembly stituency to find out as to what is happening constituencies, what prevents the Govern- there. Can any person of Administration ment from holding elections to two parlia- speak like this? But this is what is happening mentary constituencies along with the As- there. There the pob have been vested sembly election? When elections to the 12 with political powers. How can we expect AssemblY- segments are taking place, why f.... and f.reJections in such a situation? All -don't they have it along with that. I do not these things should be looked into. know what-isthe policy of the Government The former MLA; Shri V.P. Chintan, who In the end I want to say only this much- expired in May 1987. represented the ViOi- vakkarn Assembly constituency and that "Nahein hai jinko bharosa khud apne constituency is also lying vacant for more phanon par than one and a half years. I want to bring it V. hi nakhuda ke saharon ki baat karte to the notice of the Government why as to hein.- they are keeping MLA and UP seats vacant for such a long period? Only those people who themselves do nothing tal< like this. The youth in the age groupot 1.... who were depiMd of their diNct ....,., What _ say is this: ment ifttbe'count'Y'saftair ...... ~. CDnItitutional right tn thaaffairs 0." ~ . 1

[She N.V.N. Somu1 is bound to act on the advice of the Cabinet. I do not think that it is right to country, I welcome this Bill which accepts a leave this vital appointment to the dis- long pending demand of the Opposition cretion of a party government. I would parties. likewise the qualifying age for therefore suggest that the Chief Elec- becoming a candidate for the lok Sabha. the tion Commissioner should be ap- . Rajya Sabha and the House of the State pointed in consultation with a represen- legislatures should also be reduced suitably tative of the opposition and the Chief from the present age of 25 and 35. This win Justice of IDdia. • give opportunity to so many youth to participate in the august democratic institutions. Shri K. Santhanam said it many years back but this is not found in 1he Bill. You appoint The former President. Mr. Zail Singh. in the Election Commissioner as a Governor of his Address to the joint sitting of both the some State. By this, you are trying to influ- House of Parliament in January 1985 had ence that independent body. How can the said that electoral reforms would be taken up Election Commission function as an inde- with speed by the Government. 1 underline pendent body? Opposftion parties also the Word ·speed'. should be consulted for fixing the date and time of the election. The ruling party alone PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE: That is should not have the advantage of fixing the the Congress speed. time according to thelr convenience.

SHRI N.V. N. SOMU: The Government Regarding TV and radio, during my has come with this reform with a terrible meeting with the Han. Minister for Law, Shri speed after four years. You project a big Shankaranand, and the Han. Minister for mountain. But this is only a mole hill Parliamentary Affairs, Shri Bhagat. I had suggested that at least during the election The Indian Constitution provides for an time, TV and radio should be kept under an independent Election Commission. It says autonomous committee consisting of all the -I quote: "the superintendence. direction leaders of the party. For example, there was and control of the preparation of the electoral a Congress procession held in Madras on rolls and the conduct of all election to the 28th November. Our han. Prime Minister, Parliament and to the legislature of every 5hri Rajiv Gandhi in the capacity of the State and aJl elections to the office of the Congress President participated in that pro- President and the Vice-President.· cession. That was shown on the TV for more than ten minutes whereas on September 17 A veteran congress leader and the for- our National Front took out a much bigger mer Union Minister, Shri K. Santhanam. has procession than the Congress procEtssion said and I quote: but it was shown on the TV just for one minute and that ~oo just for the sake of ·'n order to assure the independence of telecast. This kind of favouritism and part~ the Election Commission. it has been san attitude should be definitely abolished. provided that the Chief Election Therefore. Isuggest TV and Radio should be Commissioner shan not be removed kept under an autonomous committee con- from his office except in like manner and sisting of all party leaders at least during the on the like grounds as a Judge of the election time. Supreme Court and the conditions of service of the Chief Election Commis- Government machinery is always mis- ..".. shall not be varied to his disad- used by the ruling party during election time • vantage after his appointment. While So many foundation stones are laid. In TamO this Is quite satisfactory, the appoint.. Nadu let the Prime Minister and other Minis .. ment has been left to the President who ters come for propaganda but let them come 193 Constitution (Sixty- AGRAHAYANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) Representation 194 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt.) Bill

as Congress leaders and not as Prime Min- seems the Election Commission wants to sit ister and Ministers. Let there not qe mixing over the pol~ical party. If Election Commis- of Government machinery and party ma- sion is an independent body then the political chinery. The ruUng party should at least set parties can give particulars and register an example for others in this respect. In themselves but th,is Government is making respect of misuse of Government machinery them sub-servient to it. It is making Election the Election Commission itseH has felt that Commission as one of the Government combining official tours with electioneering Department. Then what is the use offurnish- and use of Government machinery and ing the particulars by the political parties? personnel by any Minister during elections So I vehemently oppose this registration should be prohibited by law under the model clause. It is treating the political parties just code of conduct for political parties and as trade unions. Further those parties which candidates and no Minister is supposed to are already registered should not be asked do so. But as the code has no legal sanction to do so again. the Election Commission is very often unable to take action against its violations. I would conclude by saying that elec- The Commission has. therefore. asked the toral reforms are just an eye-wash and if I Government that this provision should be quote one of the names of the incorporated into the Representation of the Shakespearen plays to these eJectorallaws People Act so that legal action can be taken 'This is much also about nothing'. against the offender. The Commission has recommended that use of Government [ Translation1 vehides, machinery and personnel to serve electoral interests of the ruling party should DR. G.S. RAJHANS (Jhanjharpur): Mr. be banned. The Commission has said that Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank you for giving public places should not be monopolised by me an opportunity to speak. I had no hope the party in power for holding election meet- that I would get a chance today. Keeping in ings. Other parties and candidates also shall view the time factor, I would like to draw your be allowed to use such places. Although the attention only to 2-3 points. code and the Election Commission's directions are clear in this respect there have If we want to keep democracy alive in been cases of violation in this regard during this country, we will have to stop booth- elections. The representatives of political capturing. A number of provisions have parties at the last meeting with the Chief been made in this eill for prevention of Election Commissioner had suggested that booth-capturing but these are insufficient. It violations of the code be treated as corrupt appears that the people who have assisted practice under the law. The Commission you in drafting this Bill, have never seen how has, therefore, recommended to the Gov- booths are captured. If one wants to see ernment that some of the provisions of the booth-captur;ng, he should visit Bihar, Uttar code be incorporated into the Representa- Pradesh and Haryana. Everybody wants tion of People Act but the Government is that aU those who indulge in booth capturing completely sitting coolon these sugges- should be punished and disqualified but the tions. question is as to who win arrest them? Has anybody courage to arrest them? Bihar is Regarding booth capture the punish- full of deadly arms and nobody can dare to ment should be enhanced. This is shaking speak agalnstthem. I am saying this with full the very foundation of democracy. Giving of responsibihty that the Government have identity cards to voters is a must. Identity totally failed to stop booth-captunng. If the card holders,will ensure fair elections., What Hovernment fails to stop booth capturing in is the purpose for registration of political the Hindi heart land. it is beyond any doubt parties? Already political parties are regis- that democracy will come to an end here. tered with the Election Commission. It What I am saying is bitter but it is sure and I 195 Constitution (Sixty- DECEMBER 14. 1988 Representation 196 Second Arndt.) Bill & of Peopls (Amdt.) Bill

(Dr. G.S. Rajhans] people of weaker sections. Therefore, it is a very serious problem and you will have to am saying this with full responsibility. In our look into it seriously. I request you to change area people are hacked into pieces in broad all poUing officers and presiding officers at daylight but nobody has courage to get the least in Bihar and Eastern Uttar Pradesh. if culprits arrested or give evidence against not in all the States. Whatever Shri Jagan- them. If a judge is asked as to how ball has nath Choudhary has said is correct. It is not been granted to an culprit then the judge a matter of a particular constituency or a asks as to what protection has been pro- booth. I suggest you to issue identity-cards vided to him by the Government. If he had because a very large number of people are not granted bail to the criminal, either his coming from Nepal and Bangladesh to our children would have been kidnapped or North Bihar. h is not known as to how much killed. Therefore. why should he punish the population is increasing. This can be 'criminal? Therefore, I suggest that this Bill stopped to a great extent if multi-purpose should be considered do novo as it affects Identity Cards are issued to the people. If all the parties, A day may come when in the you are unable to issue multi-purpose Iden- Hindi heart land, there will be criminals only tity cards in all the States, I request you to and the Government will not be able to do issue these cards at least in North Bihar and anything. There is a theory in Economics: in Border areas of the country. Bad coin ousts good Coin.· similarly criminal people will come and sit here and oust us all. 19.00 hrs. Then only the criminals will be occupying these seats. Therefore, I request that all I would like to submit one more point. It these things should not be ignored. It is true is not proper to seek votes in the name of that a provision is being made in this Bill that caste. I feel this casteism would devour us any person found abetting dowry or Sati all. Therefore, any person who seeks votes shall be disqualified. But such a provision do on the basis of a caste should be disquali- exist in many existing laws, but sofar nobody tied. has been punished under these laws. If you allow me to speak. I want to make you aware Finally, I would like to speak a few words of the situation which is prevailing in Bihar. about electronic machines. You are most I suggest you to change an the Polling Offi- welcome if you set up electronic machines cers and Presiding Officers and appoint but it should be ensured that these machines people from other states and a simi1ar proce- work properly and teU us as to how many dure should be adopted in other States also. people have cast their votes, as to who got Besides, in eensitive areas of Bihar C.R.P.F them and who did not get. H machines work or 8.S.F. should be deployed in place of the property. only then these will be useful. local police because local police are unable Otherwise. we see here as to how many to controt the situation prevailing there as a times machines fail. What I want to say is that number of malpractices are being indulged machines may be set up but at the same time into there and Harijans and people of their proper functioning should also be en- weaker-sedions are not even allowed to l sured. There is no electricity in villages and cast their votes. if a brahmin works in the the battery also does not work there. There- house of a rich brahmin. he is asked by the fore, all these things should be kept in mind. rich brahmin that instead of going to the The people who say that money power does polli~ booth to cast his vote he should not play any role in elections, again request remain at home and his vote will be cast. It them to visit the Hindi-heart-Iand and ... means that if he is to remain in employment. that only a day before election the candid•• he should not go to cast his vote and should goes there and offer an amount of 20 th0u- remain at home. If he casts vote, he will have sand for oarrying Out repairs to the village to lose bothbis job and life. Such atreatment school saying that they may cast their votes is meted out to Harijans, Girijans and other in fayourof anybody, however, he belongs to 197 Constitution (Sixty- AGAAHAY ANA 23, 1910 (SAKA) ReprlJSl1ntation 198 Second Amdt.) Bill & of People (Amdt) BiR their caste. The people there bow their and free elections cannot be held in this heads in shame and during night think that country. H terrorism is not rooted out the he is really a nice fellow as he has given future of democracy in this country will re- money for carrying out repairs to the village main dark. school and they ask others also to cast their votes in his favour. That is why I say that 19.02 hrs. morley power plays a very important role. Therefore, I request that we should have a The Lok Sabha then adjoumed till eleven detailed discussion on it. Unless terrorism is of the Clock on Thursday, December eradicated from the Hindi-heart-Iand" fair 15, 1988IAgrahayana 24, 1910 (Saka)

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