Minnesota Youth Gang Research Project Minnesota Historical Society

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Interview with SIX PACK I ANTHONY Minneapolis Gangster Disciple 18 year old Black American

Interviewed by Kate Cavett Hand in Hand Interviewed March 1997 at Saint Cloud Correctional Facility AND August 20, 1998 Oak Park Heights Correctional Facility Project K: Give me a name that I can use. S: I don't know a name I can give you. Six Pack, you can use that. K: Sure. S: Okay. That'll work. 5.16 K: When did you first hear about gangs and what first attracted you toSociety gangs? S: Well, I didn't really hear about anything. I grew up aroundResearch gangs all my life. I'm not any rich neighborhood. I'm from the same place that a lot of people like me are from that's locked up. From a neighborhood that's mostly populated with blacks as minority. I stayed in a minOrity neighborhood. My cousins and my uncles, all of them were GO's so that's pretty much what I saw. I never thought gangs were wrong. I alwaysGang thought they was right because when you're young, just like prejudice people. Like when prejudiceHistorical people tell their kids being prejudiced is right and they teach 'em how to be prejudiced. They think ifs right because that's what their parents taught them. That's pretty much how gangs is. If you grow up around gangs and you see gangs, then thafs what you'll believe Youthis right. Ya know, when you're a kid, ifs a lot easier to be impreSSionable than it is to be an adult that's already grown up. So pretty much, I thought it was wrong. Like the police stopped people, I thought that was wrong. That's just my belief system because that's how I was raised. That's pretty much how I knew about gangs. I was pretty much automatically in a gang 'cuz of my family. It wasn't no I wanna be this or I wanna be that. From Chicago, ifs not no Bloods and Crips. Ifs just GO'sMinnesota and Vice Lords. So in Chicago, you got one or the other. My mom never taught me to be in a gang and nobody ever forced me. It was just, it was natural, you know what I'mMinnesota sayin'? 7.07 K: Did your mom always know you were in a gang? S: No, it wasn't never no topic. It wasn't nothin' we ever just talked about, you know what I'm sayin'? It wasn't never nothin' that was really ... 1never really wanted her to know. I'm not really sure she knew. I'm pretty sure she knew I wasn'Lshe used to tell me to turn my hat straight and stuff like that but I'm pretty sure she didn't think I was in a gang. I was a nice little kid. I wasn't bad at all, you know what I'm sayin'? I wasn't bad to the point where ... you know, I was generous and nice and kind and sweet and the streets just pretty much ate me alive, you know what I'm savin'? That's

how my mom raised me. She taught me how to respectful, honorable, loyal, you know, the things I was just tellin' you. She taught me how to be caring, how to have feelings. She told me when I felt something, express myself. Later on, she told me that there are times to express yourself and there's times not to express yourself. Every time I felt something, I would just it no matter what it was, to her and to whoever. And I told her, You told me to say it and she changed it. But she never knew. I knew it. I wanted to be in a gang. It wasn't like I wanted it to be. It was just natural. It wasn't nothin' that I just...like, I wanna be in a gang. It was just natural because that's just how I was. That's pretty much how I was raised. Everybody that was around me was in a gang, ya know? 8.33 K: So if all yours aunts and uncles and cousins, mom must have known. S: What'd you say? Project K: If all your uncles and cousins were in a gang, mom must have known. S: Mom .... well, my family is pretty much. I got a different family, see. We got a real close knit family. Our family is like real tight. We're real loving and caring about each other. Unconditionally. That's just how our family is. Like, my cousin, they call him Satan. When he come around my mamma, we respect the women in our family to the utmost. That's how we were raised. To respect women. Never to hit women. To respect them 'cuz our grandma was like theSociety leader of the pack, you know what I'm sayin'? Like a pack of wolves. You get the Researchone leader dog so that's how my grandma was. And whenever anybody came around any women in our family, we acted totally different than we did when we was around our friends or around anybody else. We acted totally respectful in all ways, you know what I'm sayin'? Like we were the sweetest people in the world. That's how we treated the women in our family, you knowGang what I'm sayin'? That's what we wanted them to see of us. When we got together, we played basketball, wresUed, play fight and all that stuff. We never came around each other, comin' around the Historicalwomen in our family runnin' from the police, just havin' drugs on us or nothin'. Ya know. We just had to leave 'em outside or ya know, the women in our family we just look up to. YouthJust like we wouldn't let no men put they hand on no women in our family like we wouldn't put our hands on no women. That's probably we she didn't, ya know. She think that all of us are angels, you know what I'm sayin'? My mom's soft hearted. So is a lot of women in our family. That's why, ya know, I'm pretty sure she knows now but ya know, that's why I'm pretty sure she didn't know or really expect ... she just knew I was her loving son. She just knew that no matter what, she wasMinnesota gonna love me so I really don't know what to say to that. K: I know mom 'cuz mom's told me her story and about her involvement with drugs. How did that affectMinnesota you? 10.41 S: (laughs) Well .... basically it affected me because .... it affected me from the beginning, before I even knew she was doin' it. Because of the simple fact she was movin' around. And movin' around a lot and I never got the chance to meet no people or stay in one place long enough to know nothin' or stay in school long enough to learn anything, ya know, 'cuz we moved around so much. My mom's a runner. She runs away from her problems a lot. She moved around so much, I didn't really get to have no stable friends. I felt like an outcast 'cuz I was always tryin' to .... 1was always fittin' in. People always liked me but I always felt like I didn't fit in 'cuz I was always new or just comin'

around or not knowin' anybody. Ya know, not knowin' people in the school. Everybody thought I was a trouble maker before they even knew who I was 'cuz I was the new kid on the block. Thafs pretty much all my life, ya know. That affected me from that young of an age and the men she brought around, you know what I'm sayin'? They didn't affect me in no kinda way. They never put they hands on my mom. They know if they did .... but it affected me, just affected me. It affected me schoolwise, mentally. It affected me in a lot of ways. It showed me the streets. Ya know, that my mom had pretty much control under us til she started doin' drugs and it showed me the streets, you know what I'm sayin'? When I didn't feel no love from my mom .. .1 knew she loved me but, ya know, my dad was usin' and my mom was usin' so I kinda tried to find a family in the streets. Thafs why I call a lot of people my brother and my cousin and stuff like that, you know what I'm sayin'? It affected me. School. Project 12.35 K: You knew mom was using crack? S: I knew it when I was about 11. I remember...we used to stay in Kankakee. And I didn't know. We was stayin' in the country and she was messin' with this dude down the road. And I was down there playin' with the kids one day. I think I was about 9 or 10.1 remember this. And one of the kids was like ... they said somethin' about they parents doin' dope. I wasSociety like, My mama don't do that. They was like, We seen your mama doin' it. She be Researchwith our mama doin' it all the time. I was like, Well, she quit. She don't do it no more. I never really knew until then, you know what I'm sayin'? But it never .. .it affected me real bad but I didn't think it out there. You know how you just throw somethin' out of your mind? 'Til we moved. She started gettin' real depressed. We moved to Minnesota is when I really knew she wasGang just usin'. So, you know what I'm sayin'? K: How old were you then? Historical S: About 11 years old. K: So you were first running with the GD's ... how old were you when you first started running with the GD's? Youth 13.50 S: It wasn't never no ... 1was running with .. .in Chicago, I wasn't never really running with nobody. We were the younger kids. We would ride on our bikes and hit dirt hills, go to the railroad tracks, throw rocks at cars and stuff like that but we wasn't ever no big time thing until I got down here when I was about 11. I startedMinnesota selling dope when I was 11 years old. Me and Jimmy got together. See, down here is not like in Chicago where gangs ... where you gotta be with your gang or this gang is notMinnesota as rough, you know what I'm sayin'? Ifs not as much responsibility. I met somebody named Jimmy. His mom was also usin', too, you know what I'm sayin'? His mom was smokin', too, you know what I'm sayin'? His mom was smokin' real bad. He stayed in the 410 and his name was Jimmy. I call him my brother to this day. My mom know him. He got shot a lot oftimes. Me and him got together. He didn't have no food. My mom had left. I was supposed to go to Iowa with my cousin, Jabar. Jabar ain't never showed up so I had the house to myself but I didn't really have shit to eat. And then, we just got together. We was stayin' in the basement of his mama boyfriend crib 'cuz his mama boyfriend didn't even want him to stay in the house with them. Ya know, he was only 13. So he had to sleep on the streets. So then, we hooked up with some dude named

Skillet.. .. no, his name was Cadillac. He gave us some dope. Thafs the first time I ever sold some dope. Then, when I was about 11 or 12, my mom started findin' dope, you know what I'm sayin'? Like I used to have it in my mouth and sell it. She used to tell me, Open my mouth. Then I had some in my hands one time. She made me flush it down the toilet. I started sellin' candy for this guy named Robert Cook. K: Candy? 15.52 S: Real candy. It was honey roasted peanuts and peanut brittle crunch. I was a little scam artist, too, 'cuz candy was $2.75 but I'd sell it for $5 a box. We've get 24 cases. I'd sell out. I could sell anything. I could sell somebody some sand on the beach, you know what I'm sayin'? So I was makin' like $95. I was sellin' candy in the day. I was only 11, 12 but I workedProject all day. I sold that candy, you know what I'm sayin'? I'd buy dope with that, cut it down and make twice as much money. Then, sometimes when I'd come home, my mom would take the money from me, you know what I'm sayin'? This is when she started usin' real bad when we got down here. I didn't have no clothes. I had clothes but they weren't clean, you know what I'm sayin'? I didn't have really no shoes or nothin'. So I kept getlin' in trouble with school, fightin' and stuff. People used to talk about me so I started sellin' dope, me and Jimmy. It was Jimmy was a mustSociety that he sold dope 'cuz he was only 13. He didn't have no job. He didn't have nothin'Research to eat. You know what I'm sayin'? So we started sellin' dope together and we started buyin' clothes, the same outfits that matched, shoes. I tried to go to school but it was hard to go to school every day, you know what I'm sayin'? 'Cuz I started runnin' away. Then I met a girl named Shamelia, she was a GO, too. That was my first love, you know what I'm sayin'? Ya know, theGang first girl. Knots used to corne in my stomach when I used to think about her. I met her. She was sellin' dope. Her mom was smokin' bad. She was like 12. She was already havin' sex. She looked likeHistorical a woman already, too. I looked older for my age. I always looked older than my age. I started messin' with her. I was her boyfriend. She was my girlfriend. We liked each Youthother a lot. One day, me and Jimmy was walkin' down the street and me, Jimmy and her was walkin' down the street. She had a cousin named Renae and Jimmy used to mess with Renae. So we was walkin' down the street and this dude named Geno came up. And I was like, Who is you, you know what I'm sayin'? She was like, Ah, he's like little shorty, little kid, who you think you talkin' to? And Sharnelia was like, Just go on. This is my mom's friend. I know him. He cool. So I left.Minnesota Me and Jimmy went back around corner to the house we was at and ... so when we went back around the corner about two hours later, I'm like, Damn, where she at, you knowMinnesota what I'm sayin'? And my mom's friend came around the corner. She was smokin'. And I was like, Could you find Shamelia for me? She was like, Yea. I was like, If you find her, I'll give you half. She was like, Okay. So she found Shamelia. She was like, Shamelia's down there in the house with this dude named Geno. I think she in trouble. You need to go help her. So me and Jimmy had two guns. We went down there, you know what I'm sayin'? And when we first walked up to the door, this dude ... Jimmy had owed somebody some money or somethin', right? Or somethin'. He had owed somebody some money or somethin' so the dude was like, Ah, where my money at? Jimmy pulled the strap out on him. I ain't givin' you shit, you know what I'm sayin'? So when we went upstairs and when we opened the door, she was sitlin' in her panties and bra shakin', you

know what I'm sayin'? The dude jumpin' out the window. She was like, He just raped me. He just raped me. I think she was in shock. We was like, Get up. Get up, lefs go. She was like, No, no, no, no. You don't get me. Told me not to move. Man, you better get the fuck up and lefs go, you know what I'm sayin'? So I grabbed her. She snapped out of it. I gave her her clothes and she took my shirt, took off my coat, put it around her. We took her home, you know what I'm sayin'? Dude had gave her gonorrhea, you know what I'm sayin'? My mom had turned her in. So the dude had gave her gonorrhea and stuff, you know what I'm sayin'? So I had went to Chicago 'cuz I kept runnin' away so much, you know what I'm sayin'? So when I went back to stay with my dad .. .llost contact with her. Remember that snowstorm we had in like '93, the real big one? I came back. It was on Halloween, right? Yea, it was Halloween. It was a real big snowstorm and Jimmy had a '93 Probe in '93. This was like I was 12. I was gettin' a little older. I was 12 years oldProject or somethin'. I came back down here, man and I goes up to the car. I goes to the old neighborhood and I go up to the car. I see them in the front seat kissin'. It broke my heart. I looked at 'em. She was the reason I was runnin' away so much. She was like, Come stay with me. Come stay with me, you know what I'm sayin'? Plus, that was my real first sex, you know what I'm sayin'? It just opened my nose real wide. And so I'm like, Okay. I'm gonna come stay with you then. So I went to go stay her and I kept runnin' away, sneakin', goin' over to her house, goin' over to her Societyhouse. Didn't nobody know. They thought I was runnin' away to be bad. I was runnin' Researchaway to be with a girl, you know what I'm sayin'? All kids go through that. So I was goin' over to her house. When I came back, they was kissin'. It broke my heart. I jumped in the car like, you know what I'm sayin'? Like I don't care. I tried to play it off. Play the hard role. She was like, You been gone all this time, you know what I'm sayin'? You just gonna leave me like that,Gang you know what I'm sayin'? I was like, I didn't have no choice. My dad came down here to get me. Came down here and got me 'cuz I was with her the same day I left. Jabar chased me, you knowHistorical what I'm sayin', and caught me. My uncle had called me dad. My uncle had custody of us. He called my dad down here from Chicago 'cuz I kept runnin' away but I was runnin' awayYouth to be with her and didn't nobody know that. So I got caught up. I played it off. We ended up gettin' back together. She stole Jimmy car from him that night to tell me she loved me and all that stuff. So we got back together. I pretty much liked her a whole lot. My life, when I was young. I been through so much stuff when I was a kid. When I was about 12 years old, I was already in shell shock from just doin', from just doin' everything. I ain't never met nobody else 11 and 12 that was myMinnesota age that did what I did, ya know. K: If you were to list the things that you've been through, how would you list them? 23.08 Minnesota S: How would I list them? I mean, what category? What you mean? My life in particular or ... K: Well, you experienced phYSical abuse, sexual abuse, abandonment, not having food to eat, not being able to stay clean. S: Ah ... well, I was out there, okay. Urn, my life was hard. But it could have been a lot easier. I was urn, pretty ah, pretty smart. Ah, I survived. Ah, I had a sex a lot. A whole lot. Ah, I got into a lot of fights. I got into a lot of fights. I got into a lot of confrontation. I got into a lot of shoot outs. I mean, I don't know how do you want me ... what do you want? My life in the whole ... to been through what I've been through and to seen what I've seen, I'm not a bad person. I say ah, I'm lucky 'cuz I survived.

A lot oLI always looked at Iife .. .1 never really took life that seriously, you know what I'm sayin'? I always ... I'm sorry about that .. .1 keep ah .. .1 never really took it like that seriously. Ah, um, I never really ah, I never really ah, thought about ah, I never really took it ah ... to the point where ... 1didn't know. I just thought I couldn't die. I mean, people say, a lot of people say that. A lot of people think that that they just can't die or...or, I always thought it was somethin' better. I always knew it was somethin' better. I always thought, you know, when I seen people out on the streets, I'm like, They can do somethin' about that, you know what I'm sayin'? When I was just seein' reality. I wasn't...like I told you. I was in shell shock. I never realized reality, you know what I'm sayin'? And all the morals. All the values I was taught as a kid was slowly bein' taken away from me, ya know? I had a good personality. I always made people smile. That's why I had it so, that's why I had a lot of girlfriends. I messed with a lot of older women. Ya know, I had a personality.Project I had a good ah, a good personality. And it made people smile and I used to do that a lot. But everything was gettin' pulled. The more I stayed on the streets, the more that was gettin' pulled away from me. And my youth was gettin' drained, you know what I'm sayin'? 'Cuz I had to be an adult. I had to be an adult, yaknow? 25.52 K: Lefs backtrack a bit. You were with this girl. She was a GO. WereSociety you initiated into the GO's? When did you really make the commitment and startResearch actively participating in the GOs? S: Oh, um, when I really made the commitment, well, this was when I was in Chicago. I mean, you make the commitment once you get them papers. K: What do you mean the papers? S: The papers that they give you to learn Gangyour lit, you know what I'm sayin'? You don't have to get beat up or nothin'. Once they give you them. The dummies, the dummies get beat up but they know somebody ... you don't have to get beatHistorical up. Once they give you those papers. Once they give you them papers to learn. Once you learn about the organization and the rules and regulations and papers, you're automaticallyYouth a gangster, you know what I'm sayin'? K: How old were you when they gave you the lit? S: I was only like 12 years old. I was 12 years old. My dad found all the papers in my bedroom, you know what I'm sayin'? But it was too late. I had already learned them. Ya know, and you get a week to learn them, you know what I'm sayin'? Yea. See, ifs like growth and development. They changed all the rulesMinnesota now.lfs not a... no more rules where you've gotta beat somebody up or all them rules are gone. They want people to go to school. Like in the neighborhood I was in, if you don'tMinnesota go to school, you get hit in your mouth, you know what I'm sayin'? I know that's harsh but you get hit in your mouth. If you disrespect your mom and dad, you get hit in your mouth. There's a lot of shit you just can't do or you get dealt with. Like in here, you can't disrespect guards. You've gotta bite your tongue 'cuz that's in our laws. Oon't disrespect no guards, you know what I'm sayin'? Respect your authority. 27.44 K: So you were 12. You were back living in Chicago for awhile with your uncle? S: Yea. No, with my dad. K: You were back living in Chicago with your dad. You got connected, they gave you the papers, and

you had a week to learn your lit? S: Yea. I didn'Lbefore I even knew what is was, I was throwin' it up, you know what I'm sayin'? Before I even knew what it was, I was throwin' it up, you know what I'm sayin'? I used to see, when I'd see my cousins. It wasn't really my uncles and cousins. It was just one cousin in particular. His name was Jabar, you know what I'm sayin'? He a Crip now. He flipped. But what he taught me is like um, never flip, even though he did, you know what I'm sayin'? I'm the type of person that when I hear somethin' and I say I'm gonna do somethin', I do it no matter what. Ya know, if I say I'm gonna go .. .if I make the commitment to something, I do it. I'm not a half stepper about nothin'. I don't half step. I don't, I don't, I don't like, you know what I'm sayin'? Just certain things I just don't do. My morals, ya know, the values I got, you know what I'm sayin'? Sometimes irs alii got but um ... Project K: If you had a week to learn the lit, do they test you on the lit? S: Yea. They just say ah .. .like I learned, I learned it pretty much damn near a day, you know what I'm sayin'? 'Cuz I wanted to know it so bad. I been waitin' like a year, you know what I'm sayin'? I wanted to know whafs so ... majestic and all powerful about this stuff, you know what I'm sayin'? So I came out like yea, I'm ready to tell ya and just sit down and told 'em, you know what I'm sayin'? K: Who'd you tell? Society S: Ah, my home boy, Keith. Keith Meyers, lead coordinator.Research K: Lead coordinator? 29.28 S: Lit coordinator. K: Lit coordinator. And then what does heGang do? S: He don't do nothin'. He just tells the person who'sHistorical overhead of him irs all good. I'm already .. .1 was already accepted, you know what I'm sayin'? I was already .. .1 was accepted already. It wasn't no if I knew this or that, this or that. I'm already .. .1 don't know, man. I think I got kinda like ... people tell me a whole lot that I've gotYouth leader qualities. It seems like a lot of people seems to follow what I do or what I say. And I guess they seen that and I guess thafs what they wanted, ya know. Ya know, people used to follow me around. All the other kids in the neighborhood would have 11 to do what everybody used to do. I always had the girlfriend, the cutest girlfriend out of my home boys always had, you know what I'm sayin'? I guess, thafs what a lot of people tell me so I guess they seen that quality before I did. AndMinnesota I ended up, that ended up bein' true. They ended up steppin' me up, steppin' me up, steppin' me up, steppin' me up, steppin' me up. Just like up in here, they keep ... ya know,Minnesota like I told you last time, you know what I'm sayin'? They want me to, they be wantin' me to ... call for everybody in the house. I done did that in here. So I'm like straight, ya know. 30.40 K: What rank do you have? S: Do I have? Irs a UC and second C. Unit Coordinator and ah ... and a Coordinator's Assistant. That means, them the two top people that don't do shit. Don't do nothin'. Then there's the COS, Chief of Security. He gotta do everything. I just okay everything or say no, ya know. So thafs basically my job. I'm a second C.I don'LI don't wanna be the first C, ya know. Tney tell you you gotta step up, you know what I'm sayin'? If you got the qualities, you gotta step up. You can'tjusLya know, and I

control a lot of people so I jusLwhat I do is I make sure everybody stay oughta trouble, basically. I make sure don't nobody make the wrong decisions and everything. Go by the book. And ya know, we ain't had no problems. You see, I ain't been in the hole. So apparently, I'm doin' somethin' right. Just like last week, we took up a count. We took up a count where everybody gotta go to school. If you ain't in school, you gotta get there, you know what I'm sayin'? If you're not in school, you gatta get there. You gotta ... you gatta get your GEO or everything else. Everything don't matter. You gatta get your GEO. You gatta ah ... you gotta get your GEO and gotta get a job. Them are basically the number two rules. Follow them rules, you okay. K: When you were on the outs, what rank did you have? 32.05 S: Whafd you say? Project K: When you were on the outs. When you were out in the street, what rank did you have? S: See, down here, ifs not like that. Ifs no unity down here. People don'Lnot a lot of people ... not a lot of people ... people just followed me, you know what I'm sayin'? There wasn't no rank. It was jusLthe people in the neighborhood looked up to me. If I said do somethin', they'd do it. It wasn't no rank. It wasn't nO .. .it wasn't no um ... K: So are you telling me that in Minneapolis, they don't have rank 'cuzSociety I know in St. Paul they do. S: Yea, they have rank but ifs no unity. Like people doResearch whatever the tuck they wanna dO.lfs like so many people thafs down here thafs not real. Thafs phony. They don't know, they don't know one from the other, you know what I'm sayin'? Ifs so many people down here thafs phony as hell that don't know nothin' and ah, they come up. Some people would come runnin' from Chicago and actually come down here and say that Gangthey this and that and people believe 'em because people so ignorant, you know what I'm sayin'? So then people would extort people down here. Like they'd get a whole bunch, a young group of GO's andHistorical say, Okay, I'm the second C or I'm the coordinator for the North Side and make all the shorties work for them and make them pay them, you know what I'm sayin'? Which isYouth wrong. They ain't supposed to do that. So just like the St. Paul. I know. I done been to St. Paul. Half them dudes out there is just like ignorant. They don't really ... they think they know but they don't know. Half of 'em just wanna be down because it was cool a couple years ago, you know what I'm sayin'? Thafs just the truth. I don't been to St. Pauls a lot. I know. Believe me. I know. 33.48 Minnesota K: In Minnesota, do GO's beat kids in? S: No.Minnesota No. And if they do it in St. Paul, they wrong. If somebody told you in St. Paul that they do it, they wrong. Ifs not a physical thing. Ifs a mental thing now. Thafs been voted out a long time ago. Just like violations. People don't hear people and they mouth that much anymore like it used to be. Every little thing they used to hit you in your mouth. Now they hit you in your pockets, you know what I'm sayin'? K: What do you mean hit you in the pocket? S: Money. Money. If you do somethin' thafs not right. Like in here, they was givin' out a lot of mouth shots. And I checked the first UC that was over there. His name was Homicide. He ain't here. He was the institution coordinator. And I was like, Who gave you that position? He was like, Uh, uh,

people in this house did. I'm like, You supposed to have votes from everybody in the whole institution if you gonna be institution coordinator. And he tried to test me, you know what I'm sayin'? I'm like, Man, I know you. I know him from the street like, I know you. You ain't got the right to hold nothin' down, you know what I'm sayin'? So he got dealt with, you know what I'm sayin'? 'Cuz he was just bein' real bogus. Hittin' people in they mouth, showin' favoritism, ya know. Showin' other people, showin' other people like he liked, he'd let them have positions that didn't even know nothin' about the organization. Ya know. This is when I was in the hole. When I got out the hole, I was like, Y'all got to stop all that, you know what I'm sayin'? Since I been out the hole, there ain't been no problems. But while I was in the hole, everybody kept comin' back there tellin' me, Oh, Homicide doin' this. Homicide doin' that. Homicide doin' this. K: Do you have Homicide's position now? Project 35.41 S: No. Don't nobody got his position now. Somebody else, home boy Lucky, wanted the position. Me and Lucky got into it so he couldn't get the position. Basically, you gotta be either Me KKK and SG, you know what I'm sayin'? K: What does all that mean? S: Me KKK. Thafs a dude. And SG is another dude. We don't, prettySociety much, if we don't want somebody to have the position and we don't feel theyResearch right, they can't have it, you know what I'm sayin'? That one position that runs the whole institution, that one person. People wanted to vote for me but I don't wanna do that. I'm tryin' to be cool right now. I'm tryin' to ?? right now so whenever somebody get into it, I don't let them make decisions where they can hurt ...just like we have a box that you pay $2 every two weeks whenGang you get your check for people that don't got nothin'. For the folks that don't got nothin' so they can always have somethin', ya know. Deodorant, food, cigarettes and stuff like that. And just if I didn'tHistorical have no job or nothin', I can get whatever I want out the box. Ya know, one person that we all trust has the box. You know what I'm sayin'? And if you got a job, you gotta pay forYouth whatever you get out the box, you know what I'm sayin'? Ifs for the people that ain't got nothin'. They get whatever they want. Sometimes, people take advantage of it but ifs all good, you know what I'm sayin'? When we order stuff, we order for everybody. Ifs not nobody that goes hungry. Ya know, we don't get into it with nobody. I don't use my power to persuade people. We can't extort people, see. Ifs in our laws. Extortion. We can't make people give us money so we'veMinnesota gotta have our own money, ya know. We gotta work for our money. And ifs in our law that we also gotta go to school and we also gotta exercise, ya know. People think ifs justMinnesota a gang bang. The definition of a gang is a group of old people who indulges in crime. We don't do crime in here. And we don't uh, we don't do anything close to crime. K: What about on the street? 37.46 S: It don'Llisten. On the street, people do crime. Ifs a gang act, you know what I'm sayin'? Thafs the definition. Ifs a gang. But on the streets, ifs pretty much you can do whatever you wanna do in Minnesota. Ifs not no, ya know, it ain't no consequences if I shoot another GO or it ain't no consequences if I sell my dope over here and you can just do whatever you want. You can get away with whatever you want to, too.

K: If you're selling dope, do you have to put a certain percentage of your sales ... S: No. Not down here. In Chicago, yes. Oown here, no. No. Back in my neighborhood, see, a lot of ... when I got out of jail, it was a whole lotta people in the neighborhood--Bloods, Crips, GO's. When I got oughta jail, I told the Bloods and Crips they gotta go. 'Cuz one of our folks got shot by one of 'em. Y'all gotta go or there's gonna be trouble. I just make these little paper threats. They don't even be holdin' no water, you know what I'm sayin'? I don't know. So ah, so I know your arm gettin' tired. So, I don't try to intimidate nobody and I don't like to take stuff from people. Like I told you, I don't like to see people hurt. I don't like ...I just don'Lpeople say I'm sensitive sometimes, you know what I'm sayin'? I express myself. I express my feelings a lot. Ya know, like if I listen to a slow song and I hear it, I'll sing it. I don't try to be cool, you know what I'm sayin'? I just be myself and thafs why a lot of people .. .I'm the type of person you gotta hate or love.Project Thafs why a lot of people hate me cuz I don't even know people that just don't like me. They talk about me behind my back up in here. I laughed at em, you know what I'm sayin? We in the same position. I don't know why you wanna ... 39.47 K: I've been told that ... what is some of your lit? I think your lirs a lot about values and you're kinda talking around a lot of rules. What are some of the values? I've beenSociety told that you can't spit your lit to somebody who's gonna use it against you and I'mResearch not about using it against you. S: Basically, my lit is .. .I'm gonna tell you buLl believe in God more than I believe in GO. I believe in my mom more than I believe in GO. Irs just somethin' that I just play with. Irs not nothin that I'm serious about givin' my whole life to. I don't wanna be nO .. .I'm gonna be a GO. I'm not gonna be like ... I'm not ignorant. I'm not no dummy.Gang Can't nobody control my mind like a lot of the GO's are controlled. I'm not nO ... and thafs why a lot of people thafs like me or think like me is always a lot of head. Gets up on a lotta ranks because theyHistorical know that we're not dumb. Ya know, just like in the lit, he says, I pledge wholeheartedly my love, life, and loyalty, you know what I'm sayin'? Thafs like a cult, you know what I'm sayin?Youth He know .. .1 know ... 1just like the values and stuff. And people that think, I think things, seems like people who think I like things always got control of everybody, you know what I'm sayin'? Or always got position. Because um, you can't control me and you can't control my mind. I'm a man before I'm anything and I'm pretty sure you heard that before. But irs no wrong. I'm not no dummy. You can't make me think or believe anything that I don't wanna think or believe, ya know?Minnesota Like, you can'Lokay 1 through 16 is you can't rape, you can't steal, you can't fight, you can't argue, you can't disrespect. You've gotta have sportsmanship. You've gotta go to school.Minnesota You've gotta have ajob. You've gotta have personal hygiene. You've gotta respect, you've gotta have respect for everybody. You've gotta aid and assist brothers who don't got nothin'. You've gotta give to 'em. No drugs. No addictive drugs. You can't use addictive drugs. You can't use cocaine or no substance. You can't inject or consume any ... this is how it says. A member should not inject or consume any drug that is addictive. So you cannot do drugs. You've gotta constanUy strive for yourself and for the people thafs around you. Thafs pretty much it. I mean, if you want me to spit a piece to you or somethin'. K: Okay. Spit me a piece. 43.08

S: We the brothers that are struggled players so hard and got love, life, and loyalty having break the peace from our honorable chairman. Our covenant will be to fully adhere all laws and policies set for my chairman executive staff, and the concept or the document of the new concept and aid and assisLand then it says, Through the ?? of our chairman, our covenant will be to uphold all laws and policies. So thafs a piece. Then .. .ifs a lotta pieces. A whole lotta little things like little symbols. Like I totally disagree with the heart with the wings and the horns and the tails. I don't agree with that. K: Why? S: 'Cuz it symbolizes the devil. And pitchforks I don't believe in because it symbolizes the devil. See, I'm not in this to .. .like when they throw the forks up and they drop the cross, I don't believe in that neither. I believe in some of the beliefs but I don't believe in GO as a wholeProject so how can I give my life to someone I don't believe in as a whole? K: So if you were going to show hand signals, what hand signals would you show? S: Well, things. I would throw up GO like this. See, thafs the pitchfork and thafs GO. Two different things. I'd just throw up GO. I don't believe in a lot of the stuff. I just don't believe in 75% of the stuff that they teach and I know ifs a bunch of bull shit and they know it, you know what I'm sayin'? And thafs why people like us always come over here because peopleSociety that can't see that thafs bull, people that don't see that thafs bull shit is ignorant Researchand they, they, they can't lead the people, you know what I'm sayin'? 44.57 K: What I think I'm hearing you saying is that really the leaders see through the bull shit. S: Yea. See through the bull shit and prettyGang much, ifs a brainwashing thing. Ya know, just like a cult. Ya know how a cult try to tell you something to make you believe in them 100%, you know what I'm sayin'? It got some good morals and values.Historical Sometimes they say some good things and sometimes they don't. Basically, ifs all meant to control people.lfs all meant but when some people like me just turn itYouth around, then ifs to help people, you know what I'm sayin'? Like everybody who sit around me is happening. Before I got out the hole or before I came to the house, everybody was sad. Wasn't nobody sittin' together. It was no unity in the house at all, whatever when I came over there. I got all everybody together and say, we gotta do this, you know what I'm sayin'? If you need somethin' to eat, come to me. If you need somethin' to drink, come to me, you know what I'm sayin'?Minnesota We all in here together. I don't need nobody there on my back and thafs why ... and people like that, we get rid of, I get rid ot.1 know. I weed them out. I weed them out, you knowMinnesota what I'm sayin'? There's people thafs weak minded. I'm not sayin' that I'm just a super smart person or somethin' but I'm not no dummy. You gotta wake up a little earlier to get me in the morning to fall for half the shit that some of these people in here fall for. K: I met your friend, Tony. Tony sounds like he's just going ... 46.41 S: I told Tony ... Tony wants to do somethin' with his life, Ya know, he writes some poems and he does a lotta things. But Tony is a follower, ya know. If I told Tony, Whoop that dude right there, Tony would go whoop 'em, you know what I'm sayin'? He's a follower. If Tony didn't whoop him, Tony would get whooped but I don't have people fight nobody. I sit down at the table 'cuz I'm gonna fight

'em before I send somebody else to fight 'em and thafs why a lot of people like me, you know what I'm sayin'? They don't want people to just be up just, Go do that. Go do this. Go do this. I'll do it myself. If I feel like somebody's totaling in the wrong, disrespecting one of my home boys, then I'll go do it myself but my mom didn't raise no dummy, you know what I'm sayin'? And I don't care what she did with her life, she taught me I'm not a dummy. Whatever she did with her life, she still taught me how to be a man and how to be smart. Thafs why people at the top see through the bull shit, believe me. K: Whafs the attitude towards women by GO's? 47.48 S: Well, we got sisters that are Struggle, too. We got sisters that are Struggle. They SOS's. We BOS's. They SOS's. They fall under the same rules. They gotta do the sameProject shit we gotta do, they gotta do. Ya know, it ain't no different. Ain't no favoritism. You wanna be GO, you gotta do the same things, you know what I'm sayin'? They don't have to have sex to get in. Thafs like them weak minded women. Like sometimes they'll trick girls into sayin' you have to have sex to get in and then they like, You ain't no GO after about 10 people fucked her or had sex with her. You ain't no GO, you know what I'm sayin'? Thafs out here. Thafs what they do out here. But in Chicago, you gotta respect them just like you respect anybody else or you Societyget your wig split, you know what I'm sayin'? You gotta have the utmost respect. This Researchis my sister right here, you know what I'm sayin'? Look at 'em just like sisters. This is my sister. This is my SOS Sister, you know what I'm sayin'? And she'll do anything for you. Like a brother and sister thing. Me personally, I don't prefer women like that. I like me a nice down to earth woman. I don't like me no woman thafs ah .. .1 want somebody who I can make love to, notGang fuck, you know what I'm sayin'? There's a big difference. I want somebody who's sweet and soft. I wantHistorical somebody who cry when they go see movies. I want somebody, ya know, who's sensitive and caring. A woman. Feminine. Real feminine. I don't like women thafs tough at all. I done had my share of 'em, too, but I don't like 'em. I like real soft, sensitive. Sometimes I evenYouth like a woman to get jealous. litHe stuff like that. Me personally, I wouldn't want no GO as a woman. I wouldn't want nobody tryin' to be a man. I'm tryin' to get out the streets, you know what I'm sayin'? Like my auntie washed me feet when I was a baby. She told me she knew I was gonna be someone special when I grow up. And I still got this feeling that I'm just gonna be somethin', that I'm just gonna do somethin'. This one lady told me that I'm on a journey. Before I carne to jail, Minnesotashe said I'm on a journey. There's gonna be a lot of ups and downs but in the end, she said I was gonna be victorious and famous and a lot of people will know me for sornethin' goodMinnesota I done did so the good just gotta wait. I don't know what it is but my life is a lot more than just GO, you know what I'm sayin'? Irs okay to be a GO if you choose to be. Irs okay to be a GO if you choose to be but if you choose to be a GO, irs okay but if you don't, thafs okay, too. (Side Two) 5036 K: What happens if somebody wants to get out? S: In here? K: And out on the streets. S: People do it down here all the time. In Chicago, you'd get killed. But down here, people flip all the

time. I don't feel like bein' a GO. I be a Crip tomorrow. And I don't feel like bein' be a Crip.I'1I be a Blood tomorrow. Ya know, people down here. You can do that and get away with it down here. K: If you do it, there's lot of stories? Is that what some of the killings are about? S: Basically, I never seen it really .. .I'm talkin' about in Chicago, I never really seen it happen. You gotta move out the neighborhood. Basically, once you in the neighborhood for all your life, then ya know, you ain't gonna get out of it, you know what I'm sayin'? Thafs why ifs like that because in the neighborhood that their mom stay and her family stay in that neighborhood and everybody else's whole family stay in the neighborhood so ain't no gettin' out. You can stay away from people. You can not go around people. You can do that all you want, ya know. K: What about here? Can people get out? S: In jail? In this jail? I tell 'em either you follow the rules or you can't sit with Projectus. You can'Lsee, in here, ifs like people look at us. Ifs a pride thing, you know what I'm sayin'? People are happy to be GO's up here. A lot of people just wannabe GO's because they see how tight we are, you know what I'm sayin'? They see we laughin' and jokin' all the time, playin' cards. We don't tuck with nobody, you know what I'm sayin'? Everybody got a job. Half the GO's is on the honor system, you know what I'm sayin'? We just chill, you know what I'm sayin'? Everybody look at us like golly, them fellows is the shig. People look at us like that 'cuz ya know, Societywe don't fight, we argue. If we do, we talk about it, you know what I'm sayin'? Ifs like aResearch pride thing. You sit down and break bread. When you sit down and eat, you know what I'm sayin', you feel...in here, you feel so alone but when you feel like you got a family, ifs a lot easier. Like I told you, when we order stuff. We get to order stuff once a month and we order it for everybody, you know what I'm savin'? As much as you can eat, pop, you know what I'm sayin'?Gang We sit down and we kick it all day. We rap together, you know what I'm sayin'? We sit at the table and make beats and rap, you know what I'm sayin'? Eatin' and sing slow songs and shit, you knowHistorical what I'm sayin'? We just be jammin'. And people see that, you know what I'm sayin'? People see us havin' things we want, things we need, things that we want, we have it. Youth'Cuz if a group of people pull together, you can do anything basically. You can ah ... you can ... people look at us. People honesUy try to ... do what we do, you know what I'm sayin'? K: What about on the streets if somebody wants to walk away? 53.37 S: In my neighborhood, MinnesotaI didn't care. In my neighborhood, it was a money thing. It was six of us, you know what I'm sayin'? I told the Blood. After they left, it was just, our whole neighborhood was ours. ThafsMinnesota why we was makin' so much money. Wasn't none of them home boys gonna leave. It was too litHe of us and they felt protected like people feel protected around me, you know what I'm sayin'? I'm not gonna let nothin' happen to nobody. If I'm with you and two dudes come up on you, believe me, I'm not gonna run. I'm gonna fight them two dudes, you know what I'm sayin', because thafs the type of person I am. Thafs how I was raised, you know what I'm sayin'? Protect what you believe. I mean, just...when I say somethin', I mean it, you know what I'm sayin'? When I say somethin', I don't...and I'm a nice person. People don't understand. They'd say the guy was so nice. I would give people anything. I would give people my last bite if thafs what they needed. K: You are a nice person. But when you spit your lit to me, it talked about not using drugs. Lots of

values. But when you were on the street, were you practicing all those values? S: Um ... weed is not an addictive drug. Well, thafs what they say, ifs not an addictive drug. I smoked weed. I smoked cigarettes. I drunk. I didn't...weU, I got into a lot of arguments. Half of those things were .. .in here, you gotta ... half of those things, you gotta go through. Half of those things, you gotta .... on the street, ifs like those values wasn't near. You never came in no play. I never thought about honestly. I never even thought about none of that stuff. I never thought about uh .... 1never thought about uh ...just pretty much anything, goin' to school. I was goin' to school. I was goin' to school. I was doin' my thing. I mean, I don't know. No.1 can say no. I wasn't doin' a lot. I wasn't goin' to school right. I wasn't respectin' everybody. I did, I did most of 1 through 16. Most of that stuff is like naturally do, you know what I'm sayin'? If you got some value about yourself. Personal hygiene and rape and all that stuff. I never did none of that. You can't rapeProject nobody. Thafs an outlaw, too. No gays. I mean, ifs a liberated country but we ain't havin' that shit. 56.15 K: What I think I'm hearing is your had friends and you pretty much had your own set but there wasn't a lot of connection with any other hierarchy or any other sets. S: Nah. like when they threw it at Minnesota, everybody in Minnesota had to go. We didn't go. We was like, fuck y'all. Y'all extortin' people, you know what I'm sayin'?Society The shorties would go there. They was makin' money. Plus, our neighborhood wasResearch the most...we had more money than most of the neighborhoods, you know what I'm sayin'? Everybody looked at us like we was the ones that was causin' it for everybody and when somethin' happened, everybody'd come get us. Plus, we had all the guns. We had everything, you know what I'm sayin'? So when they called a meetin', they was like whoever don't come to theGang meetin', hit 'em in their rnotherfuckin' mouth 'cuz we sent two of the home boys up there. All the folks onHistorical the North Side that didn't come, they gettin' dealt with. But when y'aII come with them brothers over there on 26th and Aldrich and Bryant, corne with them brothers, you respect 'em 'cuz we don't want no funk, you know what I'm sayin'? Because they know we would corneYouth up there and make them look bad, you know what I'm sayin'? We would come up there and tell them the truth. Down here, ifs not... K: What happened at the meetings? Where'd they have the meetings? S: Oh, they had a meetin' over in ... don't use Six Pack, then. No, I was just messin' with you. K: What narne do you want me to use? S: Any narne. It don't matter.Minnesota Ah, Lowry. No, not Lowry but the park on Broadway. You know what park I'm talkin' about? North Commons? 57.54 Minnesota K: I don't know Minneapolis. S: Okay. Yea. About 500 people carne. K: When was this? S: Two years ago before I got locked up. About '95, '94. K: Do they have meetings like that regularly? S: Sometimes they have 'em in Chicago, a nationwide meeting where everybody comes from all different states. They own school busses, rent 'em, corne up to Chicago. Yea, they do that. K: Do you ever go to one of those meetings?

S: Yea, I went to a tot of meetings but I never reatly got into it. I just be like these brainwashin'. They try to just punk people and just try to act like ... see, there ain't supposed to be no Big t's and Littte You's. Y'atl supposed to be on the same level. Some people got higher positions but we all. Ain't no Big I's and Little You's. They go around like I'm this, I'm that, I'm this. Fuck what you is. What can you can do for these people, you know what I'm sayin'? That you control, you know what I'm sayin'? When you got young kids, they'll do anything for people. Even when I was young, f wasn't havin' that shit. Go whoop him. You go whoop him, you know what I'm sayin'? K: You talked about that you had att the guns. Tell me stories about guns. 59.08 S: I never reatly ... 1just had guns. I was pretty much fascinated by guns. I had a gun atl my life. But I started buyin' guns out the store through this dude from Detroit. I would justProject go in the store and see what gun I wanted and I'd tell him. He'd get 'em atl for me, whatever I wanted so I'd have an endless supply of guns. I had gtocks, touvers, rovers, tourists, att types. Big, smatt. I had a mini-14 and AR-15, a baby AK, an AK, a 30-30, R6. I got caught with the gtock and the 30-30. But I never reatty shot nobody. I never reatty tried to, you know what I'm sayin'? I'm a coot person. I don't be tryin' to start shit. People fuck we me because I'm yellow and skinny and you know, I'm nice. My personatity come off that I'm soft or somethin', you know what I'mSociety sayin'? K: Would you be strapped att the time? Research S: No, I mean ... 1didn't care. My life Wasn't...t was in the streets for so long. I done been shot at so many times. Buttets .. .t got a hole in my pants. f think I told you about that. f have butIets miss my head white I was in the car bustin' out the windshield. You know, like in the movies. People think the rnovies ... the movies don't got shit ...Gang people be missin' a lot in the neighborhood. Bullets be ftyin' atl past your head. My mom was prayin' for me. Thafs what made the bullets go around me, I'm tellin' you. Thafs what made them buffets goHistorical around me. K: Forwhat? S: People used to try to kitt meYouth for jusLbasicatly, it was a lot of girts and stuff like that. K: Were you strapped a lot? You were strapped the day that you go in here? 101.01 S: Yea. I was ... but I never reatly ... yea, I kept it on my waist so I had somebody close to me with one but ya know, I used to have a lot of people workin' for me, sellin' dope for me. Little shorties. Little young dudes. They wasMinnesota reatty my age but they was shorties 'cuz I was ... mentally, I was a lot older than them, you know what I'm sayin'? Being in the gang so long. I was like 15, 16. They was 15, 16 butMinnesota they all thought I was like 19, ya know. So ah, I had the shorties gettin' money for me and ah ... so I had one of them hold it so when the police come, they could just run, you know what I'm sayin'? I had 'em holdin' the dope so when the police come, they just run. I run with 'em but I don't wanna shoot...! didn't never wanna shoot nobody. People used to think I was killin' people and all this shit but I wasn't doin' none of that shit. I don't know. My reputation just got built up by he say, she say. And I know a whole lotta girls so my name travels around a whole lot if you get what I'm sayin'. K: Do you wanna tell me the story of what happened that night? S: Oh. Ifs a simple story. I mean, irs not really too much to it. Urn, I'm gonna tell you, that day is not

why it happened, right Me and Koran, he ain't here right now. He just got 3... he just got charged for 3 murders. Me, Koran, this was my best friend. We was close for a long time. Me and Koran was over to his girlfriend house on Golden Valley. Me, Koran and ah ... one morning, I was sleep. And I woke up. I heard this gay dude say, Goddamn, you packing, right? I was sleep and my ah ... my, my dick was hangin' out my boxers, all right? And this fag was like, Ooohwhee, Goddamn. I jumped up like, what the ... man, you better get the fuck up oughta here. And he was like, Anyway, he's already seen it It ain't like I ain't never seen one. I just got real mad, you know what I'm sayin'? 'Cuz in my family, that gay stuff, you know what I'm sayin'? We don't believe in that shit. So ah ... the dude boyfriend came in and reached in his pocket and pulled out a knife. I put my hand under the pillow and went like, You don't wanna do that, man. Put that knife down and get the tuck up oughta here, you know what I'm sayin'? So they left. So the next day, theyProject came back again, right? And ah, came to get some shit. I wasn't trippin. The dude got smart with me like, You litHe young punk. This one gay dude. He was the man of the gay dudes. There was one that dressed like a woman and he dressed like a man. So, he was like, litHe punk, you know what I'm sayin'? I have my nephews come over here and deal with your litHe ass, you know what I'm sayin'? We'll do this, we'll do that, right? So he started reachin' under his shirt backin' up. Koran was standin' next to me, right? And I had on a jogging outfit and I had a glock in mySociety sweater. And ah, I cocked it back, right He heard it get cocked back. He picked Researchup a litHe kid and started runnin' with the little kid, you know what I'm sayin'? Like oh man, this dude has lost his fuckin' mind. I'm thinkin' like is he crazy or somethin'? He keeps fuckin' with me. I'm thinkin' is he crazy? He keep fuckin' with me. He know I got a gun. What the fuck's wrong with him? So ifs these girls that me and Koran been runnin' through. A whole bunch of 'em. GangAnd the girls over there, like I don't have sex with every female I know, right Because you know out there, you can have sex as much as you want, especially if you're in my predicament, you canHistorical have sex as much as you want So, I had been goin' ... plus I had just got my test back, you know what I'm sayin'? I had got the AIDS test I was takin' 'em every 6 months,Youth you know what I'm sayin'? And I ain't have AIDS so I was happy as hell, you know what I'm sayin'? Oh, we cool. I got scared one time because my home boy tell me, Ya, nigger. She burnin'. What?? Whew. Went and took a test. Test everything, you know what I'm sayin'? At the Red Door. So I just end up ... anyway, I just care about myself. I don't wanna have sex with all them girls. So this one girl name, whafs her name? Cinnamon. They call her Cinnamon but she got a real nameMinnesota different Her name Camille. They call her Cinnamon. And she's cold, right? But I wouldn't have sex with her. And she was getlin' mad, right? She was gettin' mad like whafsMinnesota wrong with me? She had been there washin' up, called me in there. Six Pack, come wash my back. I go in there and wash her back. Feel on her breasts and everything. Just wash her up and then walk out She'd be like, whafs wrong with you? I used to just play her like that, right? I would playa lotta girls like that. So a lot of girls used to get into it over me. So I guess, the two gay dudes .. .! didn't know I knew all the two gay dudes litHe cousins and nieces and stuff. They all liked me. This one girl named Martha, she really liked me, too. A couple days before that, I was in the hotel with her. When I first met her, she had a on body suit She had on a dress and it was real tight. She had on some stacks. I was like, Ooh, I love you girl. Come here. I love you. I never knew her. I just said, I love you. She just blushed. I said, I love your sexy ass, girl. Come here. So we

kicked it off pretty cool. I was in the hotel with her. I got so drunk I had to go get my own room. We was in the Holiday Inn. She really had liked me, too. She wanted to be my woman but I was like, I'm bein' cool right now. This is all in the same period of time in the week within this happenin'.I'm like, I'm cool, right? Then I was messin' with her two cousins. I was messin' with her two cousins. They came and testified against me but I was messin' with them two, too. I had sex with one of them but I didn't have sex with the other one. She tried to have sex behind he back with me, right. Then they auntie liked me, right. So I was like all them crazy. Bein' Cinnamon, her two sisters and cousin ran a train on me before, right? K: Ran a train on you? 107.23 S: All three girls had sex with me. All three of 'em had sex with me. So, I didn'tProject wanna have sex with her. I done had sex with all her sisters. I'm like, damn, you know what I'm sayin'? So that day, me, Jimmy and Koran was over there. We was rollin' dice. I was bettin' everybody. Ya know, I had a lot of money. I had a whole garbage bag full of money. So I bet everybody like, ya know, if I hit a 10, I'd bet everybody $200. 10-4. I was just breakin' everybody. I won like $3,000. I gave Jimmy $2,000. I kept a thousand. So we seen like 20 girls comin' down the alley. They alilike ... these were all the girls I was messin' with, too. And ah .. .I'm like damn, you knowSociety what I'm sayin'? All my home boys like Damn, who's all them. I'm like, Oh, them justResearch the home girls. They came over. I was like ...I broke everybody and I had on a tank top. I had on some black jogging pants and some black Nike jogging outfit but it was hot outside so I just had my tank top on. And they all of them start comin' up to me like, Whafs up, Six Pack. All of them givin' me hugs. Ya know, I'm popular as hell. Everybody know me. So all of them startGang givin' me hugs. Whafs up, Six Pack? And Martha brought two 40s over there. I was like, Who is that for? She was like, This is for you. I thought you might want one. I was like, Cool. So I took the 40 fromHistorical her. Then one girl was like, Yea, we brought somebody else over here for you to meet, right? This was one of they other cousins. I guess they basically dared me like whoYouth could have sex with me first, right? 'Cuz I had sex with them, right. So I mean, I know that sounds crazy but I don't know what was up with 'em buLokay, so they was like we brought our cousin over here. She wanna meet you. She heard about you. I'm like, Oh, yea? I seen this cute girl with some light brown eyes and pretty eyes. She was cute. She was skinny. She just had them eyes. She wasn't that good lookin' but she just had them eyes. I was like, Oohwhee, girl. Come here. ComeMinnesota here right now. She was blushin'.1 was like Come here. Give me a hug. I was like Whafs your name. She told me her name. I told her my name. She kissed me on my cheek.Minnesota I was like, Yea, ifs all good. Then, alii heard was boom, boom, boom, boom. Music beat. And a car pulled in the alley where I was at where all my home boys was at. They had started gettin' up and leavin' 'cuz I quit and I had all they money. So I was startin' to leave and I had all they money so they all started goin' back across the street rollin' dice with each other. And ah ... so ah ... so they jumps out the car, right. Ifs all good, you know what I'm sayin'? Ifs like literally about 40 people outside now. My home boys. All the home girls comin' over to see me, you know what I'm sayin'? I got girls arguin' over me. I mean, this shit crazy. Ifs like an every day thing so I'm just chillin', laughin'. We all laid back. It ain't no trip. So ah ... so one of my customers pulled up. I mess with a lotta white people. I didn't mess with a lotta black people. I'm talkin' about on the ... the people

that smoke, I know a lotta white people so this white dude named Charlie I knew. See, Charlie used to get 'em from the bar. And Charlie had this bar for 4 years and never got raided 'cuz he only messed with people he knew. See, Charlie only messed with people he knew for a long time, you know what I'm sayin'? Thafs why he never got raided. He was makin' like $4,000 a day. So I kinda budged in on his business because he was in the neighborhood and I started .... he was like, no, no, no, Six Pack. I can't do it, you know what I'm sayin'? Can't get in. We can't be partners. I was like, We gotta be partners or your business just ain't gonna go right. So he let me get in. We beat up a couple of his customers that came, right? We didn't beat 'em up. We just scared 'em a litHe bit. Pushed them around and he was like, I'm losin' business, man. We got to work together. So we started to work together and we became real tight after that. Me and Charlie. He's a litHe white dude. He's this litHe white dude. He's about this big. He talk crazy. We talkProject big shit. I just laugh. Ya know, normally, I get mad. I just laugh at Charlie. But he had this was one of the people I knew through him. He wanted an ounce. So I had like full ounces. I was like I'm gonna give him an ounce. I sell him .... .like I buy 'em for $1,000. I mean, I buy .... 1normally buy it for $800 and I sell it to them for $1,400 real easy because they think ifs like 3 ounces, it be so big. They don't know. And they really gettin' better than anybody in the whole city would every give 'em. 'cuz they smoke. But thafs why they always came to me. So I'm runnin' back across theSociety street to get this. Remember, they in the alley. I'm on the other side of the street. AllResearch the girls over there. Two girls fittin' to fight over me, you know what I'm sayin'? I'm just like, Ah, my cousin. You stay on this side. So I go across the street. When we first started runnin' back, I put my glock ... no, I gave Koran my glock and I put my work ... under the house. 112.34 Gang K: Under the house? S: Yea. It was a?? on the side of the garage rollin'Historical dice and I was just, ya know, I didn't wanna have it on me in case the police rolled up on us so I put it up under there. So I was runnin' back across the street to get my shit. I heardYouth somethin' go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Somebody beeped pullin' up in the driveway in the alley. And I'm runnin' across the street. I'm just lookin' who it is. Dude standin' up out the car by now. And ah ... he like ah ... dude up outa the car by now. He like ah ... he was like um ... damn, he was like, what you lookin' at cuz? And I stopped runnin'. I just stopped and looked at him like what? He was like, Yea, you heard me cuzin'. What the tuck you lookin' at? Now, I'll fightMinnesota before I shoot somebody, right? I'm like, Oh, this dude's trippin'. He must wanna fight, right. K: SoMinnesota he's a Crip? S: Yea, he a Crip but Crip and GD's don't get into it, you know what I'm sayin'? What you lookin' at cuz? This was the two gay dudes' nephews now. Okay, now the day before this right. When he brought the girls up, Koran like, Lefs go beat 'em up. Fuck the shootin' 'em. Lefs go beat 'em up. I'm like, Thafs what I wanted to do from the git go. So we jump in ah ... we jump in Shirley car and me, Koran, L.C., we jumped in Shorty car. I mean, we jump in ah. Shirley car and she pulls right up on 'em, right. We jump out the car and they start runnin'. Ya know, we fittin' to beat 'em up, right, you know what I'm sayin'? We jump out the car and they start runnin'. So they seen Shirley drop us off. So half the girls that came over there with them came over to beat up Shirley for droppin' us off

to beat them up. You know what I'm sayin'? For these gay dudes to send their cousin. Ya know, they wouldn't come to me with it. No, they goin' to take it to Shirley 'cuz they know ...it ain't that they scared of me. Ifs just that they like me too much for that, ya know? So um ... and these are the dude's nephews now so I guess they supposed to come over and put a work on me, right? So if he came over to kill me, then why is he tryin' to be tough, you know what I'm sayin'? Why don't he just kill me? So I slide up to him, Cuz? Nah. Nah. Ifs not even like that, homey. I ain't trippin. I'm tryin' to get close enough so I can hit him, right? I'm like, nah, it ain't even like that. I ain't your homey. I ain't trippin. And his cousin came over there. Dude's cousin, one of BL's, she was like, Please, leave Six Pack alone. Just please, leave him alone. Do not fuck with him. Leave him alone. And I was like, Yea, I think you better listen to your cousin, homey. Fuck this punk ass nigger. Thafs what he said. I'm like, What? Dude, do you know me or somethin'? I'm tryin'Project to get closer. What you wanna do? I pulls off my tank top. I'm fittin' to fight, dude. And solo came runnin' across the street. This boy jumped out the car. He was like, Fuck somethin'. Lefs smoke this nigger, right? So he started goin' to his car. So I start runnin' to my home boy like, Give me that strap, you know what I'm sayin'? Ya know, they threatened. I don't take threats lightly. I don't threaten people but when people threaten me, I don't take it lightly. So he gave me the strap. I ran back across the street. He was reachin' under his seat and when I seen his head Societycome up, I start shootin', Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,Research boom, boom, boom, boom. Ya know what I'm sayin'? I wasn't tryin' to kill him. I was just tryin' to scare him off, you know what I'm sayin'? 'cuz I seen him, he was reachin' under the seat. When I seen his head come up, I just knew he was gonna start shootin'. So I just said, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I was shootin' Gangand the lower back of the car. I wasn't shootin' at the windows. Like I told you, I wouldn't knowHistorical how to handle myseififl killed somebody. So I started shootin' at the lower part of the car. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. When I started shootin' at the lower part of the car, a bullet bounced off the comer of it and hit the girl in theYouth chest, the same one I was huggin' with the brown eyes. Her. So I was just. . .I was basically kinda shook. I didn't know she was hit. I didn't even know nothin' was wrong with her. But the dudes pulled off. I jumped in the car. I didn't know nothin' was wrong with the girl. Ya know, people was sayin', Oh, she havin' an asthma attack. I didn't know what was goin' on so I called the ambulance. So we left but I never meat, ya know, to hurtMinnesota nobody. Everything I did I used my mind. It was brains over matter. People were scared of me because they thought I was somebody to be scared of I madeMinnesota a lot of money because people thought I was a big time dope dealer. I made ... .I wasn't no big time dope dealer. I had a lotta dope but I wasn't no big time. I wasn't no super extraordinary batman movie type of person. I wasn't no old dog or nothin'. I was just somebody who was smart. Knew what I was doin'. I been in the gang for so long. And my name, I don't know what's up with me but my name just...everywhere I go, I'm always like when I was a kid, I was the most...every neighborhood I went to, I was the most popular kid in the neighborhood. I don't know what it is about me. Like, in the neighborhood I was just in now, people used to invite me over to dinner. Like the people in the comer store, the two Arab dudes, they used to love me, give me free cigarettes. One

of them took me to Mystic Lake one time, you know what I'm sayin'? Dude that worked right in the comer. Two dudes that worked right in the comer so they was brothers. I just had connections. People used to come out they house. Everybody wanted to be my mama. Ya know, everybody was callin' me they son. Everybody. Even the crackheads would call me they son. Ya know, everybody used to call me they son. I guess I'm a different case 'cuz ya know, I can't say I was out there doin' ... probably what a lot of people tell you. I just can't tell you nothin' but the truth. I was out there makin' a lot of money. I had a lot of women. I had cars. I had guns. But that's not what made me happy. Ya know. People .. .1 mean, that's not what made me happy. I wasn't ever happy. I've been tryin' to find myself None of it ever meant that much to me. That's why I always got it. That's why I got so much of it because it never meant that much to me. I knewProject it was somethin' in my life that I was searchin' for that I wanted to do that I needed but I had to find .. .1 gotta find somethin' in my life that I want to go forth, you know what I'm sayin'? I never took it so seriously, you know what I'm sayin'? Because it meant nothin'. That's why I made so much. I don't know. 119.27 K: What makes you happy now? Society s: I'm not happy. I smile a lot. I talk a lot but I'm Researchnot happy. I get depressed, you know what I'm sayin'? I get depressed a lot because I know .. .1 mean .. .1 don't get depressed where .. .like I sit in my cell now and I listen to slow music and I just chill. I mean .. .1 don't even know what I want in life but I know .... people tell me all the time you got the potential to do ... you're smart and you'reGang a leader and just all this stuff people tellin' me and I don't see it sometimes, you know what I'm sayin'? I don't see where I want somethin' to make me happy and I can'tHistorical find it. And I'm lookin' for it and I know there's somethin' out there that's gonna make everybody happy while I'm happy at the same time. I guess that's what I want.Youth I don't know what I want. K: Do you know where you're gonna find it? s: That's what I'm lookin' for. The gangs is nothin'. The gangs don't mean nothin' to me, to be honest. It don't really mean anything at all. The people who I'm with, the GD's. I look at 'em like my family. I don't look at 'em like no gang. Because urn, we all in this together, you knowMinnesota what I'm sayin'? I stress that a lot, you know what I'm sayin'? K: Tony, you're real connected to the gang. You're more involved than you ever were in the gangMinnesota now. Is that about survival in prison? 121.03 s: No. I can .. .1 can... like I told you, when I first came over here, Wasn't nobody together but I seen it a benefit. People don't mess with me. People respect me in here. People just ain't quick to bother me. People ain't quick to just talk, disrespect me in nothin'. A lotta people like me up in here like I told you. People either like me or hate me. A lotta people like me up in here. It's not survival. A lotta people ain't in no gang, ain't got nothin' to do with no gangs. They sit by theyself and never get in trouble. A lotta people. People don't mess with you just 'cuz you not in a gang here. I told you it's changed. It's changed. It's not the

way it used to be. Gangs is not. .. K: If out on the streets you wanted to get away from the gang or somebody wants to get away from the gang, what kind of a program could we put together to help kids get out of gangs? S: you've gotta put together somethin' that makes people know... you gotta, basically, you gotta put somethin' together that shows other people what they can do in life. All the programs in the world won't help if people don't think there's something better out there. Ifpeople see there's something better out there, they wanted ... you can glorify something in their eyes, basically, you've gotta show people. I mean, you've actually gotta show people. Sometimes, a program where you can just take people to just. .. not just even a show and tell. You just. ... well, you can show people that you can makeProject a lot of money doin' this or just show people a lot of other ways as far as jobs. Like different positions. If you can glorify being a lawyer. If you can take them to a lawyer's house and show them ah ... this is how a lawyer lives every day, you know what I'm sayin'? If I'd a been shown something different, ifI'd a knowed that there's a lot out there I can do. It's hard to explain what I'm tryin' to say 'cuz I know what woulda helped me. A what kind of program woulda helped me. If you show people something Societydifferent. Show them something different. Research 123.17 K: But to be a lawyer, it takes a lotta school. You've gotta go to school for about 8 years. S: And people will do that if you show them. I'm tellin' you. Trust me. If you show people that...when I was younger, I mean, GangI know a lot of people get fascinated, kids, people my age. But when you show them stuff like that. Like when I see somethin', like I wanted to be a real estate agent, ya know, 'cuz I couldHistorical sell stuff so good. And ah ... ya know, when you show somebody somethin' different. When you show them what it takes to do this and when you show somebodyYouth what it takes to do that, people will make that effort to do that. K: What? S: Believe me. You will stick in people's minds. Maybe you might not think it or?? I'm tellin' you somebody that knows. Show people somethin' different. K: So what all do youMinnesota show? Show house and car and nice restaurants. What are all the things that you'd wanna see? S: HouseMinnesota and car, not necessarily. Just a nice life, you know what I'm sayin'? I don't wanna see a ... what would I wanna see? I mean ... people's life. How comfortable people are. I mean, after they get offwork, what they do, you know what I'm sayin'? Before they go to work. When they're with their families, what do they do? When they're at work. Just somebody's life. Like, sometimes you can see something. Like, I fittin' to look at your shoes and I can imagine them on my feet 'cuz I like 'em, you know what I'm sayin'? Haven't you ever seen somebody wear something and you just wanted it? You know what I'm sayin'? Or haven't you ever seen something on TV that looks nice and you wanted it, you know what I'm sayin'? You know you had to go to the store to get it. Like you gotta

go to school to get it. But I wanna live .. .like I used to sell candy a lot, right? I used to go door to door and I would see people's nice houses and people smilin' all the time. And readin' to their kids. A lot of stuff I see that will make people change. A lot of stuff like ... I can't hardly explain it. I know it in my head. See, I know it in my head what would help a lot of kids. I know it in my head but it's hard to explain it. If you show them something different, sometimes the streets is all they know. Once you show 'em somethin' different, they will change big. K: But sometimes to get those really nice things, it takes a whole bunch of school. And one of the challenges is how are you willing to go without for that 4-5,6-8 years to then get it? 126.21 Project S: Show somebody what they gonna have at the end. A lot of people don't get a chance to see it. If you show somebody what they gonna have at the end of that, they will work for it, believe. Like, I grew up ... when I was in my uncle's house. Ya know, when I moved in with my uncle, he had everything. He worked sellin' ?? He makes a lot of money. He went to college and everything, played baseball. He got a little kid. A lot of people know him and like him. A lot of people admire him. He got a car. He gotSociety his own house. Ya know, I've seen this. A lot of people don't get to see that.Research A lot of people, all they see if the ghetto. If you show them somethin' different, then they wil1...a lot of people will change. K: Are you in college now? S: No, I'm goin' to college. K: Are you getting your GED? Gang S: Yea, I'm getting my GED and my diploma while I'm in here. I'm gonna go to college while I'm in here. When I get out, I'm goin'Historical to college full time for about 4,5, at least 4 years, at least. K: ?? Youth S: Major in like arts and that's it. That's basically ... you can't really do nothing here but whatever I can go to college for here, I will go to college. You can get your certificate in here. But when I get out, I'm gonna go to college for at least 4 years. Might go 8. I might go 8. I might go 8. That's been my dream all my life to go to college. I wanna live on the campus. I wanna doMinnesota all that stuff. I might not join no frat but I just wanna do everything, you know what I'm sayin'? I look forward to college. I wanna go to the basketball games, yaMinnesota know. When I be watching people at the basketball games, ya know, I be seein' all the students together and I be watching people at the basketball games and at the hockey games, ya know, cheering their college on. And I be seein' the campus life. I wanna live that. I wanna do that. I don't really know what I wanna be yet. I wanted to be a lawyer. There's a lot of things that my felony's not gonna let me be since I am a felon. But I will be something. But I wanna do all that stuff. See, I seen all the stuff, you know what I'm sayin'? Vision intake. When you visualize someone, you see someone, not just read about what he can do. When you actually see something and change your whole perspective about whatever you're doing, whatever, you change your whole perspective about what

you believe in. What you believe. That changes everything. Just like if I talk to a female on the phone and I never seen her, once I see her, I mean, I got to know her personally but once I see her, ya know ... okay, I wanna get to know that person, you know what I'm sayin'? Like ifI see nice woman, pretty women, okay, I wanna get to know her, you know what I'm sayin'? Just like you will wanna get to know ... do you hear what I'm sayin'? K: I understand what you're saying. One of the questions that I always ask when I do an interview is is there anything that the police can do to be more effective working with kids and gangs? 129.41 S: Police. The police are not the police anymore. The police don't care. The police need to start caring. I remember, I know this one police officer when I was Projecta kid. He used to give me baseball cards. He understands life, you know what I'm sayin'? He used to give me baseball cards. He used to give all the kids baseball cards. When the 4th of July came around, he used to give us a brick of firecrackers, you know what I'm sayin'? That's what police is. Police supposed to be nice to people. Police ain't supposed to beat up kids 12 and 11 walkin' down the street every day. I done seen it so many times and I done got beat up by the police so many times. Police don't care and theySociety ain't gonna start carin' so there's nothin' they can do. They don't need toResearch do nothin'. Just be nice. That's basically what I can say. I know the streets is hard but you're contradicting yourself If the streets are supposed to be so hard and you turn around and just, ya know, police are not. .. they be on power trips too much. They can't do nothing. They can't do enough for theyself They gotta help theyselffirst. And they ain'tGang even mentally fit to be even half of them ain't, anyway. And then the other half corrupts the other half and it's just all fucked up. Police can't do nothing. Historical 131.05 K: What else do I need toYouth ask you? S: You don't must need to ask me anything. Just... K: What else do you need to tell me? S: Do I need to tell you? About what? Well ... um .. .it's a lot of options in life. Find out your other options. Anybody out there that wannajoin a gang, don't ... be smart. Don't let nobody brain washMinnesota you. If you gonna do it, be smart. Don't let nobody brain wash you. Just be yourself If they can't accept you for yourself, then they don't deserve your loyalty.Minnesota Simple as that, you know what I'm sayin'? And ab ... find out your other options. Open your eyes sometimes. Look around you. Shit'll be a lot better, you know what I'm sayin'?

Second interview with SIX PACK! ANTHONY

Interviewed by Kate Cavett Thursday August 20, 1998 Oak Park Heights Ante Room

KC: What name do you want me to use? It use to be Six Pack. A: I don't really go by Six Pack anymore, jus call me Anthony, ya know. KC: I think from our last chat, I think you've graduated to Anthony. A: Yeah, I think I graduated .. .1 think I come a long way from Mr. Six ProjectPack, yeah. KC: You started to tell me; you can learn all about gangs but you can't keep kids out. And yet one of the big pieces of the project that I'm looking at is what do kids need so that they don't get in, or when kids are in how do we develop an intervention project. What do they need to get out? So let's take the 2nd question. A: Well basically every human being needs love. And every human being looks for a family in one form or another. Ifbe it gangs, be it a (unclear) be it Societya .. a frat house, be it anything, everybody needs family, everybody needs a senseResearch a unity. And some people look for it in different ways and the only thing, unfortunately the only thing that can keep a lot a people outa gangs is a family. An unfortunately that's the thing that they're most lacking in, ya know what I'm sayin. What they really need ta get out of a gang is love. They need ta get put, get taken away from the whole surroundingGang and get put around a lot a people who doesn't want. .. the total opposite, becuz people are creatures of habit. They follow habit also, ya know what I'm sayin, so they .. they evenHistorical did a little special on TV that I saw once before where somebody got on a elevator an everybody was facin toward the back a the elevator an they got in an they knewYouth that it was wrong ta face toward the back a the elevator but jus becuz everybody else was doin it, they faced toward the back a the elevator becuz people are persuaded by other people. And ifyou're brought up in a environment where people are doin one thing, you will be persuaded to do the same thing that they're doin. Becuz we .. we follow suit an thas human nature. So, the only way, the only possible way which is basically impossible, is ta keepMinnesota a lot a these kids outa the gangs is ta take em out of the environment, totally. Ifyou put in a environment with poverty, if you put in a environment where there's gangs,Minnesota you put in a environment where there's bad, you basically going to be a bad person. You learn, you act what your taught, ya know what I'm sayin. You act out what you're taught. As a little kid, if you're shown love as a kid, when you grow up you're, most a the time, for the most part you grow up ta be a loving person. Ifyou 're shown hate when you're a kid, you grow ta be a hateful an spiteful person. It's jus reality, ya know. An a lot a people try ta sugar coat it an a lot a politics come into it, but if you take it, if you simplify it, it's simple .. .it's everybody needs love an they need a family an thas what people look for. KC: This morning I was meeting with a colleague, Reverent Devon Miller, talking about an intervention project. Ifthey said ok, Anthony, you're going to be released in one month, ya

know, you're going to be out of here. What are you going to need to be able to make it out of here. You're released from prison, what kind of support do you need to successfully transition? And I know one of the pieces you've got, is you've got a loving family, but all kids don't. So, even if you didn't have that loving family, what would you need. A: Ok, so jus basically if I was jus me on my own what would I need. First of all, jail is not a place ta correct you. Sorry ta say that, but jail is not a place that. .. that corrects you an um .. an you don't need ta be ... .ifI was let go right now, I'm a totally changed person, I'm totally opposite of the way I use ta be. But a lot a people come to jail and don't change. As a matter a fact they get worse. Urn, you hafta wanna change in yourself An urn ... basically thas all you need is the motivation to change in yourself You don't really, if ... ifyou see things for what they are, if you see wrong for wrong an if you see right forProject right. . .like I tol you before a lot a people trick themselves inta believin what's wrong is right an what's right is wrong. If you jus, you really jus need yourself, cuz all the people in the world can't help you, if you don't wanna help yourself KC: But one of the things I see is that there are a lot a kids that want to change and they want to help themselves, but they don't know how. They don't have that parenting, they don't have any support around them to do it. So, kind of my question isSociety - you said you totally changed, what made you change? Research A: Well, what made me change? A lot a things actually urn ... KC: What are they? A: A need ta wanna change, I wanted ta change ..... KC: Why did you want to change, what Gangforced you to want to change? A: Becuz the feelin was killin me. The hatefulness was killin me, it was killin my as a person, it was killin me spiritually an it was killin myHistorical soul. An I'm a strong person an I needed .... my mind would .. .I can only go so far before my heart an my mind would intervene an say - look, man there's more ta thisYouth world than jus this. There's more ta this world than just.. . .I jus realized one day when I woke up, I was like ifI keep thinkin the same way, this is what I limit myself to. This is my reality, ifI create this is my reality. We make tomorrow today, so at that day I created my tomorrow, I started creating my tomorrow over an over an over again. I wouldn't let my yesterday become tody an affect my tomorrow. Ya know what I'm sayin, I jus started from there.Minnesota So what made me wanna change is that I wanted ta love myself an basic need, thas a basic, every human should love their selves, but a lot a humans don't know how.Minnesota A lot a people do not understand how to love themselves. An I jus woke up one day, I can't say it was God, I can't say it was my family, I jus hafta say it was me. It was jus the will ta wanna change an everybody has that somewhere in em. An what sparks that is when your faced with .. .in dealin .... not jus in jail, most a the time bein in jail is a lot better than bein on the streets becuz it's safer, ya know what I'm sayin, it's more secure. It's more ofa.... ya know like me, I told ya I never really had a home, so this is like the only home I ever know. I didn't understand it, I could create my own home, an um .. .I didn't understand the value of waiting. Everything that I ever had, I had right away. I didn't understand the value of working for anything, becuz thas what it was, I wasn't taught that. Ya know, I was taught

ta run away from my problems so I didn't understand the value of fighting for somethin that you believe in, I didn't understand. All a those traits were never shown ta me an those were things that I had ta create myself, ya know what I'm sayin. An um . .I guess ..... KC: Talk more about how this is more of a home than you ever had and how this is safe. The structure ofjail is safe. A: Well, I have ta say it literally killed me at first. It literally .... every day I had ta fight. I had a complex about myself Jail is not, jail has nuttin ta do with it.. .jail really has nuttin ta do with bein safe. It's jus everybody looks for stabilization in their lives. Every body looks for somethin stable. An most a the people that you're gonna find in here has never had anything stable in their lives. Um .. .it' s somethin stable an wow after so long of havin nothin stable, what a treat, ya know what I'm sayin. Jail is, jail can kill you, jail is likeProject .. well it can kill your soul, it can make you numb ta all senses to your touch, taste, smell, sight, everything. It can literally jus make you numb an not make you feel, but it's stable, ya know what I'm sayin an if you put anybody in a stable environment, I'm pretty sure they will adjust to it if you urn ... consistency is not a word that we use (unclear) from, ya know what I'm sayin. Consistency is not a word that we understand. KC: But how has consistency helped you. You're on to somethingSociety really good here. A: I'm just talking, but.. .. well consistency is like, Researchit's somethin new. I get a kick out a new things, ya know, and consistency was a trait that I leamed .. um.. well, really injail. You hafta be consistent, you can't just wake up an say - I'm gonna be like this, and not be consistent about it. I mean if you're not consistent about it, why even think it. Why even wake up an believe that you wanna change ifthere's Gang not consistency to it. And once you get that first bit a consistency ya wanna keep holdin on to it, ya know what I'm sayin. It's like, it's like you jus keep on pullin, it's like a string that neverHistorical ends, yajus keep followin that string an let that string take you where ever you wanna go. Becuz the string is like power, it's consistent. You can tell it's takingYouth you to the light, becuz what is it there for, ya know what I'm sayin. What other reason would the string be there for. It's like um .. my life has kinda been like eating ... .I know what I want outa life, but I really don't know what I want, it's like eating wid a blindfold on. Like um ... I wanna know the ingredients to it so bad, becuz it tastes so good, basically thas my freedom. I wanna know, but I hafta eat it with a blindfold on, becuz I hafta find out what the ingredientsMinnesota are to myself an sometimes I get frustrated an throw the fork against the wall becuz I really want ta know what is in this stuff that I'm eatin that makes me feelMinnesota so good. An I can't pinpoint it, so ... so I guess my life is kinda like eatin outa ..... constantly eating an nourishing my out ofa bowl that ... ofsomething that is so great, but I just don't know the ingredients to, so I keep on tryin ta find the ingredients an until I find the ingredients ... when I do find the ingredients I think I will be complete or halfway complete. Becuz nobody can never know or be complete about their lives. KC: It sounds like one of the ingredients that you found though, is consistency? A: Exactly. Yeah, thas one a the things, like tastin pepper or somethin. It's kinds like I understood that I knew what that was. But, at the same time you hafta want it. I mean you hafta be, a lot people come here an never leave the streets. A lot a people come here, it's a

thing called brainwashing, ya know what I'm sayin. It happens, ya know what I'm sayin, in young minds. Any .... young mind is vulnerable to anything. An I look at the new all the time an they're like basically tellin society ta tum their backs on these little kids. An, it's.. .it's kinda like becuz they don't wanna feel faulted, they try ta make the kids seem at fault, but these are babies, ya know what I'm sayin. These are just, I was a baby. I don't even know who I was three years ago an I was 16. Everybody should know the dramatic changes in their lives from 16 ta 19, it's like tremendous. An, um .. an when people feel like that there's no hope these kids feel like that there's no hope. I mean the very people thas spose ta help em are tumin their backs on em now. Ya know what I'm sayin, or jus sayin that they're no good. Or jus saying that.. .. an it makes em worse, ya know what I'm sayin. What, ya know, what the hell do I hafta work for, why do I have to live for, why not go toProject jail for the rest a my life with the very people .. .if! look at the news everyday an they say kids my age are no good, or they say ...... ya know what I'm sayin? KC: I want to go back. Besides consistency, what's another one of the ingredients that you think maybe you found in this bowl? A: Urn ... well I was hungry, thas what made me find the consistency in the first place. Is you can't...you hafta want it so that was somethin that I wanted. SocietyI wanted ta, as far as ... .1 found love, a love for myself Just a basic love for myselfResearch an urn ... KC: How did you do that? A: I needed it, I mean I had nothin else, I didn't have any feelins. I didn't have anything, I couldn't love other people. An I always wondered why I couldn't cry. I didn't cry for like years an years at a time. So, I was likeGang - why can't I cry? Sometimes I sit my room an make myself cry. The reason why I couldn't love other people, or I couldn't cry come from the emotions becuz I didn't love myself YaHistorical know, ta love yourself is ta understand yourself, is ta look at yourself an be .... an be, basically submit to yourself Ya hafta basically give in ta what you need an naturallyYouth let yourself love, and naturally let yourself do the things that you been takin away from yourself for so long. Becuz wrong from we're taught that all a the things that are good is wrong, ya know what I'm sayin. So, if! say ... .if! talk ta you an I use inconsistencies in a sentence an you're from where I'm from. .. they'll say ah ... you think you're smart .... you stupid. But, we're taught ta be numb like that, thas jus another way a brainwashin, we'reMinnesota taught ta be dumb like that in order ta cope, ya know what I'm sayin, in order ta ..... KC: SayMinnesota more, because I don't totally know what you're saying. A: Ok, we're basically taught to be numb. Ifyou say you love a female where I'm from, you're weak, you're a weak person. So, but you have to be numb. So we're literally teachin ourselves ta be dumb .... creatures, where ... .in gangs an everything, cuz anything that is good is wrong. An everything that is wrong is good, ya get what I'm sayin. Becuz, we're so use ta ... we're so use ta disappointment an bein let down, we hafta find a way ta make ourselves numb to it. We hafta find a way to make ourselves, ya know, immune to it, ya know what I'm sayin. An all people find away ta get around somethin ifit's killin em, ya know what I'm sayin. So, through that process you lose your identity, you lose your soul, you lose your

sense of reality. You lose all of that. An thas all, those are all the ingredients thas in a bowl, ya know what I'm sayin. You lose a lot a that stuff Becuz um.. .ifyou're smart, you notice people say - college boy, ah you all in school, you think you all smart an stuff Thas another way a bein dumb, becuz sometimes you go to school the teacher don't wanna teach you an you're a lost cause in school, so to become dumb to that, ya know what I'm sayin, you dislike it. You say it is not good, ta not ... ta not love a woman becuz, ya know, you're so use ta the other women in your life lettin you down, your mothers an everything like that. So you're taught not ta love the woman becuz you know she's gonna let you down, so when she do it's no big deal. Ya know what I'm sayin?

KC: Is that why being a player and having many women and fucking manyProject women is so important? A: Well, exactly ... exactly becuz it's jus another way ofbe in dumb. It's another way ofdefending yourself against ... and you hafta do that in order to survive. And becoming a better person is like the totally opposite a that, accept an defeat, accept and when somebody leaves ... well accepting hurt, accepting good feelings, accepting being smart, accepting all those things . .it' s jus the opposite a that. Thas all the ingredients in a bowl. One of em are acceptance, becuz if you can't accept the hurt, how could you enjoy the greatness,Society ya know what I'm sayin. If you can't accept the hurt, how could you acceptResearch the love, ya know what I'm sayin. They go hand in hand. An when you, an in the street you lose that sense a reality, you don't understand that some a the things in life are jus so great an sometimes they're so evil. But, thas a part a life. An a part of life is going .. .is havin ups and downs an believin in yourself an believin in yourself even when you fail,Gang ya know what I'm sayin, so the next time, ya know, you can jus be a stronger person. And life is about love and ... and when somebody has love they have the world, thas basically how IHistorical feel about it, ya know what I'm sayin. KC: What is failure? A: Failure is, well I use ta thinkYouth failure was the worst thing that can possibly happen. But failure is only temporary. Failure is somethin that you hafta go through to succeed. Thas my definition now. But, before it wasn't that. Failure was somethin that I couldn't possibly let happen ta me, cuz it was the end, ya know what I'm sayin. Ta fail would be the worst, becuz you can't fail or you would die. You hafta be the best, ya know what I'm sayin. But failure's a part a succeedin, toMinnesota fail is ta succeed, I think I heard that somewhere before. So, thas what failure is ta me. KC: I Minnesotathink one of the things I'm hearing you say is that not being loved is one of the hardest things. A: Exactly. I mean, not being loved is what takes your whole identity away. An thas where you come in, thas where you can become a killer, thas where you can become anything, becuz if you don't feel love, how could you love another human being. How could you understand death if you don't feel love. Love is the greatest thing on this earth. We're put on this earth ta love, every single one of us. We're put on this earth, first ta love our self, to love our wife's or ta love our husband's, then ta raise our kids an ta love our kids. Ta love our kids enough so when they are raised they can love their kids enough ta love their kids, ya know

what I'm sayin. Life is about love an once you take the most important essence oflife away from .. from a person, there is no life, there is no tomorrow, there is no today, there isn't even no right now, becuz the love is not there. Love is .. .1ove is a universal language, ya know what I'm sayin.

KC: Now I'm going to pull you out of philosophy and I'm going to ...... A: I'm not doin philosophy, I'm jus speakin my mind, I swear I am, I'm not jus..... KC: But, I want to ask you .... because I know that you're loved and I know that you're mom has always loved you, but you didn't always get that. How come? A: Well, I know that my mom always loved me, but um . .I'm loved now. I didn't...I wasn't loved before. I was loved in a sense, I was loved in .... well, even though myProject mom loved me, even though she had her problem, but I wasn't what came first .... her drugs was what came first, ok. When I was 11, and I was loved very greatly until I was 11 an thas why I was able ta go back and grab the love that I had from before. Becuz it was in me, ya know what I'm sayin. But, my mom was um... my mom was um.... well it wasn't love. I can't honestly say that ... ya know becuz my whole idea about the whole thing was 11 to 16, to 15 all of a sudden now that you're ready, how could you put me out a my consistency,Society how... not outa my consistency... but how could you put me outa myResearch stable ... what was stable ta me? How could you put me outa that now, becuz you never gave me anything stable, why should I trust you. An thas another thing, thas another ingredient that I'm tryin ta find in a bowl, becuz it's hard for me ta trust right now. I couldn't trust that, that she wouldn't relapse becuz I was so use ta bein let down, I couldn't let myselfGang believe that she would come through, ya know what I'm sayin. I could not believe in nobody but myself and you can't get through life like that, ya know what I'm sayin. So, I never let myselfHistorical believe in anything. So, when she was ready, her love didn't mean anything any more, ya know what I'm sayin .... basically, so. It means somethin now, becuz IYouth love myself, but ... KC: Was there anybody else that was there that was loving you before? You know, that you could have turned to or that had any consistency? A: My dad didn't know who ta love. My dad was adopted and he was treated very badly as a child an his idea oflove was totally warped and he's a very good man, I can't take nothin from em, but...um ..Minnesota .I was out there with em for a year and I felt some stabilization an I thought that things were goin fine an started usin ... .I was outa there, I came back to the city. UmMinnesota ... so, no I can't say that. KC: Talk to me more about when you felt...... I mean you talk about the consistency and the stabilization, and I think that this is really important for us to look at and you seem to be exploring it and able to verbalize about it. What does that look like? Describe what you mean by stabilization. What a kid needs in stabilization and what a kid needs in consistency. A: Something that he just knows is there, something that he knows won't let him down. Every body needs that. People, grown people need it, they look for it in God, they look for it in their jobs, they look for it .... and jus imagine how important it is to a kid to know that this is there, to know that, that. .... it can be there, but without love it really doesn't mean anything. But ta

know that that love is there, thas wow, thas amazing. Ta a kid thas like, thas like all, thas like a candy story, ya know. You get your nourishment from it, you get every part of your. Ya know people can be flat broke, have nothing an still be the goodest people can have an literally nothing, but as long as they had that love an that stable person in their life, that pillar that they can.... every kid need an adult. I mean you need an adult, ya know what I'm sayin, becuz you are ..... as a kid thas why you're a kid, you don't know about life. You need an adult to slowly train you into becomin an adult yourself And when you don't have that, you're ... you're forced ta ... ta not only, not only .... everything needs a future to it, everything needs a past to it, and you're forced to just take the future. It doesn't have a backbone without a past to it, it doesn't have a backbone if you don't start from the beginning an work your way up. When a kid doesn't have that adult, he's starting from ....Project he's not starting from the beginning, he's starting at the top, ya know what I'm sayin. An thas the worst way ta start. KC: Is it like breakfast is always on the table, or breakfast is always at a time. Mom's always home at a certain time, is it a struc ...... A: It's a structure, yes. It's a .. .it's a .. .it's ofhavin a family. You know what havin a family is, I mean everybody knows, I mean a family's not perfect. It canSociety be a one parent family, it can be a anything, but if you, if you look at your Researchresearch, I pretty sure if you look at your research and you find kids that didn't have parents, they ..... most a the kids that are in trouble did not have parents, ya know. Most a the kids that are in trouble didn't have love when they were growin up. Thas obvious, ya know what I'm sayin. I know what it's from, becuz I grew up this .. that way. It's havin Gangsomethin stable, it doesn't matter what it is, it doesn't matter if there's a piece a toast for breakfast or if there's a .... but as long as that breakfast is there, as long as you know that this personHistorical loves you enough ta make sure that you're eating, as long as you know that this person loves you enough. When you can respect someone, ya know an adult. I meanYouth a kid needs an adult. KC: It's kind of like breakfast is always served between 7 and 8 in the morning basically. Yeah, somebody's going to be around and there's going to be lunch after school. Maybe mom works, but you know where you know where you go 90% of the time. Mom is home in the evening when you do homework. Every third Tuesday or every Tuesday she goes out to AA, it's kind of a consistentMinnesota schedule. That's what you're talking about? A: Yes an when I got outa jail I had that from my mom for a little while an then it got all messed up.Minnesota When I went ta jail she got married an everything got hectic again, so I lost that again. Um. .it's about feeling love, I mean it's about, ya know what I'm sayin, somebody bein there for you. Somebody.... you know love when you're a kid, I mean it's.. you feel it, it's like you look at...you can look at two adults. We lose this as we get older, but when you're a kid you know, you can see through stuff really, really, really easy. You can see through all the phoniness, a lot. Ya know you can easily be tricked, but I'm talkin about when it comes ta love an things that are genuine from the heart. Kids appreciate that, kids know what that feels like, if it's phony kids pick that up, ya know what I'm sayin. It's .. .it can be a number a things, it can be a lot a things, but 10ve .... I keep goin back to it, I know I'm probably

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soundin like I'm readin it out a book or somethin or philosophizing, but I'm not, I'm tellin you exactly how I feel. It's hard to explain. KC: Well I know it is and yet you're doing a really good job, I'm just. .. .1 want to not just look at the picture or look at part of the picture, I want to kind of even get. .... what happened, you said you got out of jail, it was stable for awhile, but then mom got married. What was different when mom got married? A: Ok. Well we didn't have her for a long time an urn ... KC: Where was she? A: Most a the time she was usin. An when she got sober an we had her that was Iike ... 1 came home every night on curfew, I did the chores, I took the garbage out. An I loved it, I literally .. it damn near madeProject my toes curl, becuz it felt so good ta have that. Ta say ok, I got a family, ya know, becuz. ... ta sit on my own porch an look at people an say this is mine, ya know, this is my family, this is my mom, ya know. These are my little brothers an sisters, ya know an I would do anything ta protect them wid my life. Urn, it's a sense, it's almost like a senseResearch a pride,Society it's almost like a sense a belonging ta something. An that was my belonging, ta my family. An um ... 1 didn't need a gang after that, ya know what I'm sayin, becuz I had it at home, ya know. A lot a people get inta gangs ta be popular becuz they're insecure kids an theirGang parents need ta teach em how ta be secure, but in my case that wasn't the case.Historical Urn, I needed ta be loved an I don't care, when you're a kid you're gonna go find it from some way. You're gonna go find it fromYouth drugs, you're gonna find it with hurtin yourself, you're gonna find that attention somewhere. KC: But what got different when she got married? A: When she got married, well it wasn't stable anymore. (-'ote: family inten;ie\HI' found out that mom got married this tirne hecause the !H.'\\ husband was tf'arhel'Minnesota her hm'l to read.) KC: How? A: WeMinnesota were moving, that ••• that messes •. ya know what I'm sayin? KC: Yeah, but moving can be a couple of weeks of instability. A: Well ... KC: I mean I know you know this, I really want to••. A: Ok, ok weD I got outa jail an then she moved, she brought somebody new inta, inta all of our lives before she had a chance ta build back up the family anyway. Before she made it secure enough to make that, to make that safe. Beeuz it wasn't safe for us. It's not safe to bring someone new into the situation before you have the whole situation resolved yourself, ya know what I'm sayin. Thas not safe, ya know, that brings

instability becuz ya hafta trust an learn ta like someone else in your life, ya know what I'm sayin. Um, move inta his place which was a lot smaller, I had no where ta sleep. Ya know what I'm sayin, really, ya know what I'm sayin. An Ijus felt like I didn't belong anymore, ya know, I knew what came first an it was the kids, so I jus kinda excused myself. KC: You mean the little kids came first or he came first? A: No, the little kids, he never came first. My mom, I'm always the man, if it comes down to it, my mama's always, I've always been the man of the house when it's come down to it. No one has a bigger say in my mother's life than me. Ya know what I'm sayin, I mean, be it her husband, but she knows that I listen to him an I respect him becuz of her. An if I like him I'll respect him becuz a him. But, I won'tProject let nobody do wrong to my mom, if she likes it or not. Me an him gotta fight, I don't care since I been 11, we gotta do somethin, this is not gonna go on, ya know. I've always been very protective of my mom an my sisters an all a that stutT, so. KC: I got to meet your family, but where does Anthony get to be a little kid ifhe always has to be the man? A: Right, exactly. There was no room for me ta ••• 1 had ta sacrificeSociety an kids shouldn't have ta sacrifice. We had 4 beds an there were 5Research kids, ya know what I'm sayin. I had ta sleep on a floor an I was still in the way, ya know what I'm sayin, so I had ta sacrifice. Either I could be a big baby an stay in the house, or•.. or... or I could try ta fight through it, or I could make it a easier environment for the kids. Ya know I had case workers com in over an, an everything wasGang so hectic, Ijus felt like it would be easier if I let the kids, ya know, I didn't level myself at that point really, ya know what I'm sayin, ta even know what I was do in was destroyinHistorical my life, but um .. but I've always been the one ta sacrifice. An you shouldn't ask that of a kid, but again I had ta grow up an be a man before I had timeYouth ta be a boyan thas destructive, ya know what I'm sayin. Ya can't mix, you can't miL •. ifyou know science you can't mix the wrong chemicals, you hafta put em in correctly. You can't put one in after another, you can't put the mattress an then put the spring on top a the mattress, cuz then how you gonna sleep, ya know what I'm sayin. So, I was forced ta be that spring on top a the mattress. I was forced ta be the manMinnesota before I was the boy. KC: Did that affect your ability to love you? A: Exactly,Minnesota I mean it's ... everything goes through stages an like I was jus telllin you from before, if you have to start from the ground up, ya have ta be a boy and love yourself as a boyan then become a man and love yourself as a man. You can't become a man, becuz you don't know the first stages. There's a lot wid bein a child, there's a lot ta do with bein an adult first, bein a child, ya know what I'm sayin. It's a lot a experience that you should learn, gradually an not all at one time like I had to. I mean learn it at one time, like ifyou .. .like if you stay up ... like if you hafta study for a test an you stay up the night before an try ta read it all, you can read every last page, but you'll forget everythin when it's time ta take the test, so. Thas basically what happened ta me here.

KC: Ok, but you're not the only one an I think that there a lot of boys out there who have become men because they lived on the streets, because the did the kid thing of - hey, this looks more exciting, parents you can't tell me what to do. And parents gave up and just let them do their thing, so they've been men. How do we create a program to help them re-parent themselves so they .... do they go back through that boy stage to learn to love themselves so that they can be healthier men? A: Honestly what I believe about that is, thas a good question .... um .. .! had, when I came tajail I was actin like a big ass kid, a big ass baby doin everything that I could never do on the streets. Goofin around, jokin around, jumpin around, hoopin an hollerin, runnin around. Doin things jus ta see how the reaction I would get from it an jus, ya know, I was a big kid. It came all outa me when I came ta jail, when I was 16 an I was in theProject County. People were like ... damn, ya know, I was a big baby. I was like, it was like, it was a total .. .it all came, it comes outa you one way or another an most a the times it comes outa you in destructive behavior. You don't think before you act, ya know what I'm sayin, thas a kid trait, ya know what I'm sayin. An it comes outa you as an adult like that, ya know what I'm sayin. You misuse your body an you do a lot a things becuz ah .. .it comes outa you, it comes outa you in different forms, in different ways an thas what happened taSociety me. Yeah, I know tha what happened ta me, so. I think you hafta go throughResearch that again ta become a man, you hafta. KC: Do you suppose that.. .. you said when you went to jail and you knew it was going to be long term because you knew why you were there. And so there was structure, consistency, stability there ...... that then it was safe to be this playful little kid? A: In the County, yeah. But, not in prison,Gang not when I came ta .... KC: How long were you in the County? A: About six months. But, I went crazy. TrustHistorical me, I did. Ya know, I was loud, real loud. Jokin all the time,just .. oh,jus ... jus, ya know what I'm sayin ... real irritatin, ya know what I'm sayin. I was jus like a little kid,Youth ya know what I'm sayin. I didn't understand what bein a kid was an when I got...an I tol my mom - mom, I'm actin like a big kid, ya know I was on the phone wid her. Ya know I've always been able ta analyze myselfan look at myseJfan see what I'm doin wrong, so .. .! was like - mom, I'm bein a big kid urn ... KC: Have you figured out why? Why were you being a big kid? A: Becuz I needed that.Minnesota I needed ta be a kid once. I had to, I mean I was so use ta being Mr. tough ass six pack an Mr. nothing can hurt me, I'm too strong for anything, I don't care about dyinMinnesota ass six pack, that I didn't care. Ya know, I didn't have time ta be a kid. I didn't have time ta show weaknesses, becuz bein a kid meant bein weak an that goes back ta what I was sayin about puttin up your defenses. Even as a kid you know when not ta be a kid, ya know. Ya know when ta try ta be tough, ya know when ta try ta be strong, even as a baby, so I put up those defenses an I had time .... an there was, I was 16 ..1 had time ta let em go. I mean you got people watkin around here with a mental capacity of a 12 year old. 40, 50 years old walkin around this prison right now, that acts like a little ass kid an thas cuz they didn't have time ta be kids when they were little. KC: How much of when you were in Cloud, was there still .... ya know, maybe the county jail you

were a little kid, and how much of when you were in Cloud were you the teenager being the macho jock except that you were being jock over a leader of a gang? A: Well, I'm jus ... .! was jus pretty smart an like I told you before, I saw things for what they were an I called people on it. An people like that usually rise when they can see clearly, when they don't let their own self, blind their own self I read .. .I read between all the lines, I understood a lot a things before a lot a other people did, so therefore I was jus a automatic leader, ya know what I'm sayin, there wasn't really nuttin ta talk about. KC: But. .. A: How long? Basically that was the question you were askin me ..! was jus tellin you why, but um .... well, that was again, again I was takin on the responsibility of the family man of the person who was in charge a the family. Who was spose ta stick up anProject sacrifice an do all a this stuH: becuz it's the same thing. In the Cloud ifyou do something wrong, if one a your people do somethin wrong you go to the hole for it, sacrifice. An I didn't care, I was so use ta it was jus like a second nature ta me, it wasn't no big deal, so it was awhile, it was a long time, but I jus realized that .. that how can I be a leader of anything ifI can't lead myself, ya know what I'm sayin. How can I have control of so many people. Ya know I can say go whoop him right now an it'd be done, becuz I said it. How can I haveSociety control of so many people, if I didn't have control a myself, ya know what I'mResearch sayin. Which that doesn't make any sense. An a lot a people they were like 30 years old, I was only 16, 17 they were lookin ta me like I was their daddy, ya know what I'm sayin. They were comin ta me wid their problems an talk ta me ... ask me for my advice an I had ta sort out peoples problems. An I had so many problems myself, I wasn't in no stateGang ta do that. So, I jus let people .. .it, it really came an then I had already took on the role as a protector an um ... thas why ... thas when so many fights came into it, becuz I still had my pride anHistorical my honor an I believe ... whenever I do somethin, whenever I feel somethin, I believe in 100%. I'm 100% loyal ta what I do an what I believe in. Thas why me an thisYouth guy got into a argument, well it wasn't a argument, it was jus a debate. He asked me if I got married, would I let my wife have sex for a million dollars an I said no way, I couldn't it's jus not possible, if you make a vow you spose ta stick to it no matter what, no matter what the cost is, but he's like what if she cheats on you anyway. I was like, it doesn't matter, I made a vow ta be ... ta love an cherish this woman, so I believe in totally, totally 100%Minnesota what I believe in. I don't (unclear) about anything, ifl believe in it an I love it, I'll stick up for it. An um ... so, an I was a man a my word, so thas why I'm really overMinnesota here right now, becuz even though I have .. .I was like ya all do your own thing, ya know, I'm still a G, but I don't .... ya know, I'm not gonna be involved ya know, it's too much stress for me. I gotta live my own life, ya know what I'm sayin. Ifya got a problem with that we can take care of it, but I still have a dude who was lookin up ta me, that I call my little brother, ya know what I'm sayin, his name was George. So, we was really tight wid each other an I'm teachin him, well I'm tryin ta teach ... he's changed a lot, ya know, jus by bein around me, I can see the change, ya know, even though. KC: He's here? A: Yeah, we came here together. Me, him an Ziggy. An jus by bein around me I can tell the

change in em, ya know what I mean. He tries ta act like me sometimes, but thas natural when ... cuz I was lookin for it. I was lookin for a role model too. I was lookin for somebody ta act like an ta walk like, becuz I didn't know who I was. I didn't have my own identity. Ya know, I think everybody goes through that, they feed off a somebody else's identity, ya know what I'm sayin, becuz they don't know who they are their selves, but he'll find out, he'll get it. An every time he got in trouble I was by his side, ya know. So, it really never stopped, it jus, I jus minimized it, I had to, becuz it was .. it was jus another destructive thing. People do destructive things to their selves, as they, when they don't love themselves. Constantly, constantly, they're constantly tryin ta hurt their self, becuz they don't believe that they're worthy a life, or worthy of anything good, ya know what I'm sayin. An people, an they do it in all types a ways. An I inflicted myself with so much pain, becuzProject an then there was the regret about killin some, killin the Lake girl an ta this day I pray about her every night. An I know it was a accident, but ya know she didn't hafta die becuz I was jus a child an I didn't know what I was doin, ya know what I'm sayin. That comes inta play, that doesn't really have anything ta do with me changing, becuz if so I woulda changed right after that. Urn ... but it played a big part in understanding what life, ya know what I'm sayin, ta me. Becuz I've lost so many people I love, ya know, by her dyin she wasn't, ISociety didn't even love her an but...so, it wasn't. I've lost lots an lots a people that I love,Research ya know, friends an family an stufflike that, so. By her dyin it was jus that I created that, but I'll always felt guilty for everybody who died, ya know what I'm sayin. I always try ta take the blame for everything that went wrong around me, so. KC: I think what I'm hearing you say Anthony,Gang is that you don't need to be the father anymore. You don't need to be the taking care of anymore. I observe that most of us change out of some pain, ya know. Something kicks usHistorical in the ass, hard enough and enough times that we change. So what, what was it, what kicked you in the ass, hard enough and enough times. Was it moving here? WasYouth it being thrown into solitaire? What was it? A: I swear, I could be like a millionaire if I knew like really the answer to this question. But, urn .. .I was killin myself an a need ta live, is what did it basically is all I can tell you. I want ta understand myself A need ta not limit myself ta this. A hunger for believing in something. A hunger for, even a passion for lovin myself an a passion for wanting to love something else, ya know what I'm sayin.Minnesota An .. an I've always been able ta analyze myself so I looked at it an I was like - why can't I cry? Why can't I feel these emotions? What's goin on wid me? Ya know,Minnesota an one mornin I jus shed it all, ya know what I'm sayin, I jus shed it all, it wasn't nothin in particular. It was nothin, becuz I could tell ya if it was particular, ifit was jus one thing that did it, it wasn't one thing. It was the mixture of all a the things, an me knowing right from wrong an me understanding what I was doin was jus wrong an had nothin ta do with bein right, ya know what I'm sayin. An it killed me, it was killin ... .I was dyin on the inside an if I didn't shake it, I knew I would never be ... ta get back ta who I was. Ya gotta understand I was losin myself, I was losin everything. I got to the point where I didn't even know who I was. I remember one time I forgot my birthday. KC: In prison?

A: In prison an outa prison, I was so durnb an I had ta have feelin again, I had ta put life back inta my body. I had ta do, ya know what I'm sayin. I had to, it was jus a hunger, it was jus a need to ... an knowing that I had ta do it or else I would die, my soul would die basically. KC: What did you just say? A: I said sellin drugs are more addictive than smokin drugs, thas the truth. You get so addicted ta sellin drugs, it's like a job means nothin. Nothin really means nothin. Sometimes sellin drugs is your life. Sometimes people look at it like it's a job, ya know an they cherish that becuz they know that they can do that. A lot a people don't know how ta do things, an when they find out that they can do somthin, ya know, it's addictive ya know what I'm sayin. An the excitement an all that stuff is very addictive. All humans look for it, thas why people go to the movies an shit, know what I'm sayin. People look for that excitementProject (unclear) an we have it continuously on the streets, so it's like a constant high. To us all you fuckin like rabbits an smokin a lot a weed. KC: Can I correlate that when you say sellin drugs that it's just plain the whole gang life is ..... A: No, sellin drugs is more addictive than smokin drugs, you cannot be in a gang, have nothin ta do with a gang an you can get addicted ta sellin drugs. You can ask any drug dealer, any drug dealer will ever tell ya, who's a real drug dealer, will tellSociety ya sellin drugs .. J think is twice as addictive, becuz there's treatments for peopleResearch that smokes. There's no treatment for people who sell drugs. KC: That's what we're tryin to design. A: Yeah, puttin em in jail means nothin, ya know what I'm sayin, ta somebody who sells drugs. I mean urn ... you can give em as muchGang time as you want to but they know that that dollar is too easy an a easy dollar, anything that comes easy is addictive. Ya know thas why people look for quick fixes, quick highs. AnythingHistorical that comes easy is addictive, ya know what I'm saym. KC: What's the treatment programYouth for people who sell drugs, or..and a lot of being in a gang is selling drugs. I mean I've had people tell me that the gang can be addictive because of all the pieces of it. A: It is. Exactly. Anything thas destructive can be addictive becuz you're, ya know, anything that ya know that, I mean ya know anything that has a sense of excitement to it can be addictive, ya knowMinnesota what I'm sayin. But, ta me the sellin drugs was what was more addictive than anything I've always had. IfI had 50 bucks I know I could tum that 50 into a hundred. AnMinnesota if a crack head had 50 bucks he knew he can get high off it, ya know. It's kinda like the same thing, ya know what I'm sayin. So, urn ... the treatment for people who sell drugs, um . .is ... well for me is jus that ... some people jus hafta understand that they're hurtin other people. They are destroyin other people. An until they realize that, like I would starve ta death literally before I ever sold another piece a drug, ya know what I'm sayin. Before I ever sold drugs again. Becuz I was hurtin people for my own benefit, ya know. An that..that is like the worst kind a person ta hurt other people to strive yourself That is .. ya know people use the excuse - well, other people do it, but you don't have to. Ya know what I'm sayin, you don't hafta. When ... an that goes back ta not lovin yourself, how could you even care about what

you do ta other people. KC: But you knew, I mean you watched how when other people sold drugs to your mom .... A: An thas why I didn't, thas why I minimized it, the feelin wasn't a big deal ta me becuz a that, it made it less hurtful ta sell drugs, becuz I knew what it did. Ya know what I'm sayin, becuz I knew what it did ta my family. But, becuz I was a part a that, ya know what I'm sayin. I was a cycle of all a that, so I was just a part a that. Sellin drugs ta other people really had nothin ta do with it. It didn't affect me at all becuz a what it did ta my family. Ya get what I'm sayin? It's .... that is really so hard to explain, but it can't .. .I was just a cycle of it, ya know. I thought that it was ok becuz a what it did ta my family, I didn't. . .I didn't think it was ok, but I thought it was a part a life. KC: And now your saying: I never want to do it again, I can see how it hurtProject people. What helped you open up your eyes? What helped you step outside of the cycle? A: Well, I love, I love myself An, an it's easy ta sell drugs ta people when you don't love yourself, it is so easy to destroy other people when you don't love yourself An how can I say, how can I sit up here an say I love myself if I'm willin ta hurt other people ta make ... ta benefit. I'm benefittin off a other people's pain, I'm benefittin off a other people hurt, ya know. There's no love in that, there's no umm... you hafta beSociety literally insane ta think that thas ok. An when I was a kid, I thought that it was ok.Research I told you this before, I use ta literally get pissed offwhen the police pulled me over. I thought I had a right ta be sellin them drugs, for real, I thought I literally had ... .I was like ... why are they fuckin wid me? Ya know becuz I was a part of that, ya know what I'm sayin. I was a part of that whole thing. An there's help for everybody an people tum their backsGang on em. People tum their backs on these people. An .. becuz .. becuz they feel. .. ya know society feels guilty becuz a these kids out here doin this stuff Society feels ... an ta minimize the Historicalpain on their selves they push it off, ya know what I'm sayin. They tum the kids inta the evil ones, ya know what I'm sayin? An in all reality, if you don't teach that Youthkid how not ta do that, you're just as evil as they are, ya know what I'm sayin. You're just as evil. . .if you put em in jail around a lot a manipulating older people who ... .I mean at that age you're starvin for a role model. Look at..you get your pick a the litter in jail, ya know what I'm sayin. So, umm ya can't...I'm like totally against puttin kids in jail. I mean people say .... .it doesn't correct anything. I .... .I been put in jail all my life, it didn't do anything Minnesotafor me. KC: Have you found any role models here? A: No,Minnesota I had ta become my own role model. I've had ta become my own, I literally had ta be.. .look up ta myself Like praise myself, thas why I'm .. .like I'm no ... I'm good at everything I do. I got into a argument the other day becuz I was talkin shit cuz I intercepted every ball that was thrown ta other people, cuz we ... football seasons gonna start. An, ah ... an I always win. Bas.... ya know when I play basketball, I always gotta win, becuz I'm so good I try ta make myself so good at everything an I praise myself I'm liter .. .I'm almost damn near arrogant, ya know what I'm sayin, for real. I look in a mirror an I'm like - damn, he's fine, ya know what I'm sayin. Becuz I hafta give myself that love, I have nobody else ta love me like that. I have nobody else ta comfort me. So, I have .. .I had ta comfort myself, I had

ta be the one who ... .I was my outlet and my inlet, ya know what I'm sayin. Everything that I feel, I had ta cherish it. Even the bad feelins. Even the feelins that I didn't want. I had ta have those ta make my appreciation for the better feelins, ya know, better. KC: When are you going to let somebody do something for you? A: When I feel like I deserve it. KC: So you don't love yourself down to your toes? A: Well ..... KC: That one you can think about.. ... A: Ok. .. no, no, no I wanna answer that, becuz I think thas important. I love myself down ta my toes, but it's still a lot, long way ta go, ya know what I'm sayin. If I'm jus happy with who I am, how can I ever get better, ya know what I'm sayin. An thas Projectanother way of limiting myself cuz I was always happy with jus bein a dope dealer an sellin drugs an shootin people. I was always happy with that. Therefore, I was limiting myself, jus becuz I'm smart now or somethin don't mean I hafta stop, ya know what I'm sayin. You hafta struggle .... thas jus one a my avenues of strugglin, I hafta find some way ta make myself want more. An ta feel like, an ta fight, so when I... when I give myself enough .... when I deserve somethin from somebody else, it's jus another thing that I'll work at. Ya knowSociety what I'm sayin. It's hard for me ta accept somethin from somebody else becuzResearch I've always had ta be the one that gave it to myself So, thas easy an I still have a lot a defensive walls up, ya know, it's easy ta love myself, why let somebody else love me - hey, they might interrupt my stabilization ofme lovin myself, ya know what I'm sayin. An .. um ... but I've been, I've had pretty good people in my life, ya know what I'm sayin. Good,Gang I mean good friends, good people that sincerely care about me, ya know what I'm sayin. KC: Obviously our conversation today has beenHistorical about: What do we need for prevention? What do we need to help kids that are going to get out of gangs? What other thoughts do you have? Youth A: You have to simplify it. Ya hafta bring it all the way down to his raw form, ya hafta say - look. ... you hafta let the kid know that this is flat wrong. But, at the same exact time you hafta show em a better way. Ya hafta almost give em a pattern of things ta follow, you almost hafta .... becuz a lot a kids know that they're gonna hafta go back, even when they go ta jail, they know theyMinnesota hafta go back ta the same environment. An if you give em not skills ta survive outside the environment, thas the only environment that they will succeed an they willMinnesota live in. Thas the only environment that they have, ya know what I'm sayin. But, ya hafta show em somethin outside a that environment, ya hafta show em. An unfortunately I don't think that you ... that you can take a kid an place em in a home where there's loving an caring, cuz a kid'll follow suit. You ever, you ever, if you guys ever get enough money ta try this out, find a good family, ain't no family perfect, but find a good family an take a kid from outside ... from outside a the family that has had problems an put em right inside a that family. Now the adults don't hafta give the kids love, the adults don't hafta give the kid a a lot a the things that a kid needs, but jus let em sit there an watch how you guys do it. An watch how he'll start followin along, watch .... ifyou guys can do that...watch ... watch he'll start followin

suit. He'll get up every morning an go ta, go ta breakfast an sit down an eat at the table an probably pray before every meal an he'll ... he'll wash the dishes with other kids an he'll go ta school an he'll do all that stuff if you take em completely outa the environment. He has ta adjust to his environment, when you come to jail you have to adjust to your environment. It's about environment, if you around ..... some people are jus gifted an don't feed inta it, some people are just. ... an those are extraordinary people, who strive besides the fact that they've been through this. An thas why people are commended - you came from the Ghetto an now you're doin this. Thas why people are commended so strongly, especially in the Black community, becuz thas an achievement, ya know what I'm sayin. Look how many people don't. For every one person, there's thousands who don't go, ya know what I'm sayin, so. KC: With what your saying, what I would wonder is if ... you have incredibleProject structure in your life right now. A: Yeah. KC: It's there, it's forced you have not choices an your smart enough to adapt to it. But, that because of that rigid structure that you have in your life right now, if it's not giving you the flexibility to explore all the rest of this. A: I am forced, literally forced ta not let myself, around here, taSociety be changed. Ta become .... the guards try ta hold you down, the institution triesResearch ta hold you down. Literally tries ta make you not succeed, I hafta force myself not ta lose who I am, in the real things, in the ... ya know what I'm sayin, I hafta force myselfta smell an be happy becuz I'm a loving an happy person. I will not lose who I am becuz of something that is this. I've created a atmosphere for myself that I'm bigger than all a this, this is Gangjus temporary. Um... a lot a people don't feel important, I've had ... an thas the big problems, a lot a people don't feel important, like they deserve ta be, or have .... contribute to this world. But,Historical I feel like I'm bigger better than all a this, so the structure in here has nothin ta do with me changing. Matter a fact it tries ta make me worse. Every single day is literallyYouth a fight ta not lose who I am. Ta not, ta hold onta my essence, ta hold on ta Mr. Anthony, ya know what I'm sayin. It's a struggle, it's a fight. I stand out, ya know what I'm sayin. I mean, my individuality stands out a lot. An tha... an that intimidates a lot a people an that scares a lot a people, ya know what I'm sayin. So, I'm forced ta almost hold onto who I am. Lot a people wanna walk around here mad an wanna make the world mad, wanna make Minnesotaeverybody around em mad, becuz they're mad. I wanna be happy an I force myselfta be happy, ya know what I'm sayin. So, trust me it is not the jail. Jail did have a Minnesotapart of me havin ta find out who I was, becuz if! didn't I could be killed in here. I could be destroyed as a person, as a human being, as everything. So, jail had a big part a me findin out who I was, ya know what I'm sayin. Becuz, in the midst of all of it, I had to or else I would die, an I ... an I want ta, ya know what I'm sayin, to live, make me fight for it. Ya know what I'm sayin? So thas basically what it is. So it wasn't. KC: What about spirituality? A: Spirituality, well ..... KC: Are you exploring any of that for you? A: Yeah, yeah, yeah .... I told you this before. It's hard for me to explain spirituality, becuz it's

somethin that I just feel. It's nothin that I can jus explain to you. It's nothin that I can just sit here and talk to you about. But, I have a great spirituality, I believe. I have a great. ... .it's deep, trust me. KC: Is it based in any tradition? Christian or Muslim? A: No, no I'm a Christian. I don't believe in urn .. .1 was havin a conversation with a Muslim the other day an I explained to em that I didn't believe in the FOI or the FlO, whatever it is, terminology. I didn't believe in bein a Muslim becuz they teach hate. An um.. .life is about love which I was sittin here tellin you an how can .... how can, after you've experienced so much hate, how can after you've been through so much put downs, how could you tum around an do the same thing ta somebody else. How could you tum around, how can I tum around and call you a devil when I've been called the devil for so long.Project Ya know what I'm sayin, an I know how it feels. Thas very childish an I see totally through that, thas ... ya don't, ya don't fight fire with fire, ya fight fire with water, ya know what I'm sayin. So, um ... an he was shocked, he was like um . .I was talkin to em an he was like um .. .1 was talkin to em an he was like, man I didn't even know half a the stuff you was jus sittin here tellin me ya know, until ya talked ta me about it. So, sometimes there's a few people here that I can sit around an talk to, tha jus like ta come ta me an talk ta me, ya knowSociety what I'm sayin. An we kick it like that, ya know what I'm sayin. Becuz, I'm Research.. .I'm .. .1 have a strong beliefin what I feel, I don't let anybody get in the way of that. I'll be damned ifI let somebody change that, an I think thas a good part a me, I think. KC: Where did the belief come from? I mean when did you start cultivating it? How do you cultivate it? Gang A: The beliefin, havin a belief in myself Knowin that...that...1 told you, like I said that one time where I ... .I'm gonna let wrong be wrongHistorical an right be right. I'm not gonnajustify ..... KC: The beliefin spirit? A: Oh ... in spirit? Um... thereYouth was really no ... self identification, ya know what I'm sayin. I identify with myself I learned myself an you hafta become spiritually involved with yourself ta find out who you are. You hafta have these ... .1 sit in my cell, have a little time frame where I sit in my cell an I cut off my TV an I make sure I'm just alone, an this is when it's totally quiet an Ijus think. An I think thas a big part of it, ya know what I'm sayin. For those two hours, ya know the timeMinnesota ... sometimes it's a hour, sometimes two hours, sometimes I'll sit there until I see light outside. It all depends on what I'm thinkin about. I jus let thoughts come taMinnesota me, I let feelins come ta me. An .. .1 think thas where my spirituality came in, knowing how ta be with myself A lot a people don't know how ta be alone. A lot a people get fuckin frightened, they go right ta sleep. A lot a people don't know how ta deal with their selves, but dealin with yourself you hafta become spiritual. I mean, you need that, you need to have a spirituality to become .... ta be a strong person, point blank, yeah. KC: Thanks Anthony.

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