U.S.-Dakota War of 1862 Oral History Project Minnesota Historical Society

Terry Sveine Narrator

Deborah Locke Interviewer

New Ulm, Minnesota August 2, 2011

AL = Aimee LaBree Minnesota Historical Society Project

DL = Deborah Locke Minnesota Historical Society

TS = Terry Sveine History

Society Oral AL: This is Aimee LaBree on August 2, 2011, in New Ulm, Minnesota interviewing Terry Sveine. Interviewer: Deborah Locke. 1862 DL: Could you spell your name for ofus? Historical TS: T-E-R-R-Y S-V-E-I-N-E. War DL: When and where were you born?

TS: I was born October 27, 1954 at Loretto Hospital in New Ulm, Minnesota at 9:20 PM on a Wednesday. Minnesota DL: And who were your parents, or are your parents?

TS: MyU.S.-Dakota father, George Sveine was born in Hanska, south of New Ulm. My father died four years ago. And my mother, Lois Schmitz Sveine, was born in New Ulm, and is still alive as we speak, at 81 years old.

DL: Who are your siblings?

TS: I have three younger sisters: Karen Jensen, Patty Stoesz, Sandy Wurtzberger, and Jackie Koepsell.

DL: And your grandparents on both sides.

TS: On my father’s Norwegian side, Jorgen, or anglicized to George Sveine- my dad’s the junior- and his wife, Marie Skarpohl, both first generation Norwegian immigrants; their parents had come over. And on my mother’s side Anton, or Tony Schmitz, who died quite young, at about age 35, and her mother, Florence Tower.

DL: How long have you lived here in New Ulm?

TS: As we’re recording this I’m 56 years old. I was born here, but I did move away for 13 years. I lived in Burnsville for a year, a little bit up on the Iron Range in Virginia, Minnesota for a few months, and then 12 years in Rochester, Minnesota; moving back home in 1995.

DL: What’s your heritage? Project

TS: Ethnicity heritage? On my father’s side, all Norwegian. On my mother’s side probably 85% Luxembourgish, and then a little bit of Bohemian and a little bit of German. History DL: Where did you go to school? Society TS: I went to Catholic grade school and high schoolOral in New Ulm, and then I went to Mankato State University with History and Geography double majors, and graduated in 1979. I also went on for seven months to be a certified travel counselor; I was a travel agent for 16 years. You’d think with the1862 history and geography you could get a job in that field, but I couldn’t, so after 5 yearsof of college I went back to a half a year of vocational school. Historical

DL: What was your profession?War

TS: A travel agent for 16 years, and then for the last 12 years, working at the Chamber of Commerce in New Ulm, as what I simply call “the tourism guy”. I cutely say I used to send them away, and now I bring them in. Minnesota DL: What did you learn about family history while you were growing up, and who told it to you? U.S.-Dakota TS: That’s a sore point with me, having been interested in history my whole life. My mother knew very little about her history. She thought we were of German heritage. Now, Schmitz is a Germanic name, but it’s Luxembourgish, I found out after the fact, and so she didn’t have much to tell me. Her father had died young too; my mom was 9 when her dad died, so she didn’t have that to carry on. And my dad didn’t know much about his heritage, but his mother, my Grandma Sveine, lived to be 95 and was lucid to the end of her life, so she and I were great friends and I learned some Norwegian heritage from her.

DL: Did you ever hear of the 1862 US-Dakota War during your growing up years?

TS: Very little. We were not taught it in school. I have one kind of cute- well, it’s maybe not so cute, but it’s certainly a telling story, if you don’t mind me telling it here.

DL: Sure.

TS: I’m the oldest of 5 kids, so I was probably 8 years old in 1962. We lived two blocks up the street from where we’re interviewing here at the museum. In the summer of 1962 we were at home; our parents were out. I don’t recall doing anything special, and all of a sudden an Indian man and woman come in the house. They don’t knock on the door, they don’t ring the doorbell; they just come in. And I distinctly remember me standing with an arm around each sister, Karen and Patty, we were just afraid- who are these people? First of all, anybody just coming in your house and beingProject there as adults, and you’re an 8-year-old kid, that would be intimidating enough. But they were an Indian man and woman. And we weren’t crying, but we were scared. And then we hear this familiar voice: “Kids, don’t worry, it’s all right.” Oh, that sounded familiar, but it didn’t look familiar and we’re still probably quaking and hugging each other, and then the lady’s voice says, “No kids, it’s us.” History

It worked out that my mom and dad were dressed up in hokey,Society Hollywood style Indian costumes to be in the pageant that was going to Oralhappen for the hundredth anniversary that year. And so that was my single experience, growing up. I regret that so much, that that huge event wasn’t passed down to us. And I’m not indicting my own parents about it, but our school systems and why1862 that wasn’t something that was mandatorily taught. It was the biggest event in ourof town’s history; why would you not be teaching that? It’s often called the biggest event in thHistoricale state. Now, the good news is we’ve learned, and the kids, at least in New Ulm, are taught this. In 3rd grade they do the Katie Groper walk, which I thinkWar you know about, do you?

DL: No.

TS: Katie Groper was a 12-year-old lady here during the war, and as an adult she wrote her memoirs, whichMinnesota the museum has then turned into a walking tour of downtown. And so the kids are given that in 3rd grade; I believe the Lutheran and Catholic parochial schools do the tour as well. And then in 6th grade, I can tell you for a fact, because I’m in chargeU.S.-Dakota of the program through the Chamber, the 5th and 6th graders, depending on the class make-up, are given a city-wide tour touching on the war quite a bit.

DL: As a child, what did you learn about history from the pageant?

TS: I never went to the pageant, so I don’t know. I’m so annoyed that that was just not part of our having grown up. It’s sad.

DL: Do you have family members who lived through that time?

TS: I have ancestors, yes. Actually, quite a few. Shall I go on?

DL: Sure.

TS: I said earlier that my mother thought her maiden name of Schmitz was German. Well in fact, as a travel agent years ago, my wife and I would get free tickets and off we went to Europe. And before we chose the destination, it was like: Well, we’ve been to England several times, we’ve been to Frankfurt, we’ve been to London. Here, Iceland Air, they go to Luxembourg City- “let’s go to Luxembourg City”. Fine and good, off we go on a nice trip. Before I left I said to Mom, “Now, we’re going to Luxembourg, Netherlands and Belgium. Schmitz is German, as you’ve always said, right?” “Yup, Yup, Schmitz is German.” And I said, “Well, we’re not going to Germany so I won’t bother doing any family tree work.” By the way, I had completed my father’s Norwegian side at that point, so I was kind of into all of this, and wanted to take Projectadvantage of going over there.

So we go on the trip; great time; come home. I then started doing family tree work, like within the next week, up at the courthouse. It took me two days, and I wish you could have this recorded: I’m in the little room in the courthouseHistory with the records and I yell out, “Son of a gun!” Loud as can be. And the girls in the office: “What’s the matter, Terry?” I came out and told them. Not only was I not German,Society but found out that my great-great-grandfather, Peter Schmitz, was fromOral Luxembourg, and I was in the town that he was from in Luxembourg and I didn’t know it. I thought: what a wasted opportunity that was. So I’ve then gone on to get way into my Luxembourgish history. In fact, I helped found, and am the current1862 president of the Luxembourg Heritage Society of Southern Minnesota. We’reof not a very big group, but we’re a dedicated group. Historical

In the course of all that studyWar I found that my great-great-grandfather was here during the war and had records that he was conscripted or enlisted in the militia to help in the two battles of New Ulm, as was his brother, Jacob Nicholas Schmitz. And more importantly of all, their sister, Mary Schmitz Ryan, is actually fairly notorious, or well- known for her role here. There is a plaque on a building in downtown New Ulm; as a kid we called it Eibner’s. It wasMinnesota a restaurant/coffee shop. On there was a plaque, and I’m sure, I just envision myself, knowing me as a 14-year-old kid, I probably leaned against this plaque, watching teenage girls going by, probably cat-calling them, and never once did I turnU.S.-Dakota around and read it and go, “Oh, Mary Schmitz Ryan in charge of a gun powder keg in the basement with women and children to blow themselves up if the Indians had taken the town.” I never once thought: Oh, Schmitz, mom’s maiden name- was there a connection? I didn’t think to ask that.

Well in fact, she is that; she’s my great-great-grand aunt, I guess would be her lineage, and so we have some notoriety here. There’s a famous poem in Luxembourg; it’s true, so it’s not folklore, she’s called Dommeldinger Mary. Dommeldinger is a corruption of the town; they’re from Dommeldingen; and Mary, her first name. And it’s a story- it’s actually turned into a poem of her great Luxembourgish courage as she resists the

oppressors and the Indians attacking the town. And so she’s got fame both on this side of the Atlantic Ocean, as well as back in Europe.

Once a year for the last, I believe 6 or 7 years, a friend of mine, a man from Luxembourg, Renee Daubenfeld, has brought groups of Luxembourgers to the four states that were most settled in America: Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota and Wisconsin, and we do a tour here. They stay in New Ulm two nights. And when they find out that I’m related to Dommeldinger Mary, they know about her. So she’s got some fame over there.

DL: She was in charge of the keg and lighting it in case of what?

TS: If the Indians had taken the town. When I tell this story- part of my job at the New Ulm Chamber of Commerce is that I’m in charge of the visitor portionProject of the Visitor’s Center, and training the volunteers and all of that. And when I tell the story, if I’m the only one in there, I say, “Doesn’t that speak to the terror that the citizens here felt, that they were willing to- you have to really give it some thought on what it is- they were willing to commit mass suicide rather than be captured.” For right or wrong, not judging anything else other than just that incident, that’s pretty telling.History The fear was that great, that: “Let’s kill ourselves and loved ones” rather than be captured. Society DL: That’s quite a bit of weight to put on one person.Oral

TS: Yes! She was like 26 years old too, and pregnant. 1862 DL: 26 years old and pregnant, andof considering mass suicide. Historical TS: I’ve never read what’s probably an accurate number of the number of people at this place that she had them in, inWar the basement, but I would imagine having been in the room and the average person was in a 3-foot circle or whatever. There’d be at least 50 to 100 people in there. So as you said, that was a lot of weight on one person’s shoulders to saw: “Okay, here we go, I’m going to kill us.”

DL: And at the same timeMinnesota they knew what was happening on the outside. They knew every non-Indian that was encountered was killed.

TS: Right.U.S.-Dakota

DL: So they knew their fate was not good, no matter what happened.

TS: Right. Women and children could have been captured and kept, as they were at the camp by Granite Falls, or Montevideo- wherever that was. So women and children may have stood a chance. It’s my understanding that the men--the Dakota warfare methods--were to kill them or maim them, or both, because in the afterlife they could be your enemy again, and if they’re wounded you have a better chance of beating them. But women and children would either- I think the fear was pretty widely understood that

rape was a possibility. There were some atrocities with babies being nailed to trees and things of that nature. I don’t know the details to tell you when and where, but I read enough of it to know that it did happen, but how frequently -- I don’t think as frequent as probably has been told.

But yes, it’s just amazing to me to think about that. I look on these people as, wow- they’ve made my life what it is. I bought my Great-Great-Grandpa Peter Schmitz’s stone up at the Brown County Veteran’s Memorial, put on “Defender of New Ulm,” etc- whatever the format is up there, and the years that he did it. And my mom says, “You’ve never even met this man, why would you spend $100 to put his name on a stone somewhere?” And I said, “Well, what he and his family and everybody else went through has made my life what it is, so that’s worth $100.”

DL: What is the end of that story? So, they’re prepared to die becauseProject they’re afraid they’re going to be overtaken. At what point did they know they were safe?

TS: I don’t know that; I’ve never read any specific accounts of it, and I don’t know – I’m fairly knowledgeable about New Ulm’s history, especially that period- I don’t know that somebody came down and yelled “The coast is clear.” WeHistory know that it was the morning of the 24th of August, so essentially [they withstood] a 24-hour attack. Finally the Indians had left, appeared to have just kind of faded away. Society Oral DL: Was your great-aunt’s husband involved in any of this?

TS: Her husband was here as a defender,1862 Matthew Ryan; he was from Ireland, actually. of Historical DL: Did he survive? War TS: He did survive. In fact, Matthew Ryan and his wife, Mary Schmitz, were often considered the first citizens of Springfield, Minnesota. Their farm is still in the family; it’s a Century Farm, still in the same family, just perhaps two miles north of Springfield.

DL: Have you heard anythingMinnesota about what the family took from that experience? Was there long-standing anger, or fear of Indians?

TS: I’veU.S.-Dakota not heard that; I’d love to. I’m actually working on a fictional biography of Peter Schmitz and trying to make it as absolutely accurate as I can, and then taking what I think are reasonable liberties to fill in the blanks on things I don’t know, and could never be known; conversations and such.

But [as to] the aftermath, I’ve never heard anything. I do have one other story of the family that might have affected their view, and I haven’t come to a conclusion on how I’m going to incorporate that into the book. My great-great-grandpa lived with his brother, Jacob Nicholas Schmitz, when they came over from Luxembourg. Then their father came the next year and he lived with the two sons on a farm that was on the

reservation. Well, you know, we all want to make our ancestors noble, and I think I’m taking good strides to not do that, but in our mind we want them to be noble; we don’t want them to be reservation squatters, that’s not very noble. So I have to believe they didn’t do things out of maliciousness; not because I think my people are great or people who would just come over with the family and break the law. Breaking the law like that doesn’t fit an immigrant’s typical pattern or way of doing things.

Well, so my ancestors came in 1857 to New Ulm, 1856 to Chicago, spent the winter, and then immediately came here. He had a brother, John Schmitz, who had a wife, and I believe four or five children, who spent a year or two in Bellevue, Iowa, and then came to the New Ulm area in 1859. He also settled on the reservation. Now, we’re down in the southeast corner of it- it’s not like they plopped in the middle of it, of course, but nonetheless, they’re where they shouldn’t be. Again, I don’t know that they did that maliciously. My understanding is the physical border markers were missingProject and it might have been: Well, you can go on that, that little bit, that’s probably okay. I’m envisioning it to be something like that.

But I have a story, well documented: John Schmitz, in April of 1860, two years before the war, is having a meal with his family in his cabin. TheHistory story goes two different ways; one says a single Indian man came- the other says a group of them came to the cabin asking for food and alcohol. And John Schmitz denies the Societyindividual or the group that. In fact, in the court report is says he physically grabbedOral someone by the collar and the belt or the waist, and threw him out of the cabin.

They hear nothing about it again. John 1862and his family go visit their brother, Peter Schmitz and such. They come backof home and their farm is burned down. Their cabin and a barn of sorts- burned down. They kindHistorical of think it’s the guy that he threw out, and that’s not an unreasonable thing to think. But, all right, John, tough immigrant guy, goes back and is redigging the foundationWar to build a new pace, and on April 27, 1860, is shot in the back and killed. They end up finding an Indian, the English name of Charles has been used; I actually have his Dakota name somewhere. He goes on trial in New Ulm, and I love the old archaic way of saying things: “On a necessary break.” In other words he had to go to the bathroom, or said he did. He got his chains or such, unbound or loosened to a degree andMinnesota he runs away and is never found again. So I’m wondering if my people, my immediate ancestors, Peter, if there is a built-in animosity towards the Indians- seeing their brother killed. In their mind: hey, he’s on my property, he’s buggingU.S.-Dakota me and my family while we’re eating and I throw him out – that’s the right thing to do. He comes back and burns my farm down and turns around and kills. I can see that there might have been [animosity], but that’s me trying to be a psychological historian and I don’t know if I have a leg to stand on. But I have to think to some degree that had to affect their views toward the Dakota. I don’t know that and I can’t prove it; I’ve never seen a thing. Sadly, my family’s got no diaries from those folks, so I don’t know. But you almost think there might have been something in that.

DL: Thank you. Did the war have a direct impact on anyone from your family; your ancestors?

TS: The only thing that I can put proof toward is the depredation claims reports that have been out there. Great-Great-Grandpa Peter Schmitz had filed and was awarded, I believe, $700 to be shared with his brother, Jacob Nicholas; those two were on the same farm. And their father, who was also on their farm, had a claim paid for $900.

DL: Can you tell us more about those payments? We’ve heard a couple of people allude to it; they weren’t sure how much the amounts were. This was the Federal Government?

TS: A lady named Mary Bakeman; you probably know Mary, had done a lot of work in, I believe the National Archives in Washington, and came up with all of these and transcribed them into a book which she sells. Hey, good for you, I’ll spend $10 to buy your book, it’s cheaper than going to Washington, wading through allProject of that. Several families have everything that they had filed the claim for listed. I’d love to have that listing [for my family]. ‘A barn burned, two cattle killed’, or whatever the inventory would have been. That would be fascinating insight into their lives. We don’t have that for our family. So my understanding is that those claims were paid from the money that the Dakota had been promised for the span of the 50 years fromHistory the Tra verse des Sioux Treaty. And it’s my understanding that the depredation claims were paid out of the remainder of money that had not been paid out for the first,Society I suppose eleven years, it would have been. Oral

DL: Did anyone die from your family during that time because of the war? 1862 TS: No, other than John the two yearsof previous, nobody did. And I know of no injuries incurred as well. I just found a first-hand accountHistorical here of how the Schmitz family was warned. Would this be a place to read that? War DL: Sure. Tell us who it is from and when it was published.

TS: A man named Greg Lalonde. I’ve met Greg a few times, he lives in the Twin Cities and sent me this. It’s from a Minneapolis newspaper in 1925; I don’t know whether it was the Tribune or what itMinnesota was then. I won’t read the whole thing, but just how the family was found. This little excerpt I’ll read refers to John Schmitz, and it’s his daughter actually saying this: U.S.-Dakota “Father came home to build another cabin and on April 27th, 1860 while seated in the cellar he had dug, he was shot in the back and killed. Mother, determined to hold the claim, and with the help of two of my uncles, managed to get along until the outbreak occurred.”

Now she’s going to the first person here, telling about how she’s living with her Uncle Peter Schmitz and they’re at supper:

“We were at dinner and the cabin door was open. I heard a scream, and looking out, saw a neighbor boy running toward the house. His right arm hung limp and he was red with blood. When he reached the door he couldn’t speak, and I’ve never since seen such a look of horror in anyone’s eyes. We realized what had happened and hastily began preparations for flight while the boy sobbed out his story. His mother, two brothers and three sisters had been killed in their home. The boy and his father escaped. We learned afterwards that the father had hidden in a hollow tree. Our trip to New Ulm could not be called a flight, as we rode in an old farm wagon drawn by oxen. While we were hitching the oxen together we could see Indians all about us a mile away. Homes were in flames and we could see groups being attacked. The confusion in New Ulm was awful, Mrs. Thule continued, women were running around screaming and wringing their hands. Many had lost their reason.”

Mrs. Thule then told of being placed in the cellar with a number of others.Project

“They told us to set the powder afire and blow us all up if the Indians took the town,” she said. “We were told that would be better than capture.”

Now the story that I told just previous to reading this, wasHistory not based solely on that; I’ve got many accounts of this. So this just validates and adds a little color. I’d never heard of the boy coming to warn the family. The family, by the way,Society lives about 4 miles away from New Ulm, 4 miles west and south, just perhapsOral a half a mile from the little town of Essig. So it’s nearby.

DL: The little boy ran how far? 1862 of TS: Well, working with Darla at the HistoricalHistorical Society here, the only one we could figure out who lived near enough to them, and would have had the type of family loss that he suffered--although this accountWar and the actual is off “by a brother” -- it’s a funny way to say that- would have been a man named John Bluehm. Knowing where he lived, where the Schmitz farm was, and corroborating that with the loss of family, it probably was that young man.

DL: Have you ever been Minnesotato Mankato to the execution site?

TS: Oh many times. I lived in New Ulm and commuted to Mankato State for five years, so I’ve beenU.S.-Dakota there many times.

DL: Did you experience any particular emotion at the time?

TS: The first time I went I was a young adult, I was probably 20 years old, and I was indignant. I wasn’t outraged, but I was upset because at that time, in roughly 1975 or ’76, as I recall, it was essentially a foot-and-a-half by a foot plaque in a metal frame next to a gas station. And I thought: this huge event, while Mankato might not be proud to be the site of the largest mass execution in American history, it’s not a great thing that you put on your tourism brochures- “Hey, come visit us”. So they’re probably not proud of

that, but nobody living there did that, so I think you’ve got a hundred years distance in there. But I was outraged that this huge event is all but forgotten, acknowledged by a little sign, happenstancely next to a gas station. I thought: this deserves way more than that. Custer’s Last Stand is a national park or a national monument, I believe.

DL: Is there anything at all there now?

TS: Well, now there is, Reconciliation Park. I was living in Rochester at the time, so I wasn’t attuned to things happening back in New Ulm and Mankato. But I can’t tell you the year exactly; perhaps 1990-ish; somewhere near there, the site of the hanging was memorialized in a place called Reconciliation Park. There is an approximately 10-foot tall, pretty big limestone carving of a buffalo. I would, personally as a history guy, a person involved in tourism- I’d like to see that marked with telling what the sign is, because a year ago my wife and I hosted a German lady to stay withProject us. She actually worked at the Chamber of Commerce and stayed with us for a brief time and I took her around on little local tours. I was taking her to this, telling her the significance of this site, and there were two young ladies there, perhaps 20 years old, really posing and taking cell phone pictures. And I said, “Ladies, do you know what this is?” “Oh, no, it’s just a cute place to take a picture of this big buffalo.” I said,History “Oh, well, it is that. But it’s also extremely significant.” And I went on to tell them the story and they were, “Wow, why don’t they have a sign here, telling us that?” Exactly. SocietySo I hope someday that can be marked. I know it’s not a place of pride for theOral white people, and it’s probably nothing that the Dakota necessarily want to get too involved in, but I would think they would not want that lost in their heritage, I should imagine. 1862 DL: Have you ever been to any of theseof places, and what are your thoughts about them? Starting with Fort Ridgely. Historical

TS: Yes, I’ve been to Fort RidgelyWar many times. Even as a family we would go to Fort Ridgely. We’d do picnics with several of my parents’ friends and their kids. We’d play baseball out there. Attend pageants- not pageants, but plays; they’d do outdoor plays. There’s a stone or concrete stage made up with kind of a natural amphitheater. We knew that was a big place and as kids we’d run around in the foundations of the fort barracks and the other buildingsMinnesota there. So we knew that was a significant place because the physical evidence told us that. I’m very keen on- you know, history is this ethereal thing that has no substance; it gains substance when you have something there, whetherU.S.-Dakota a sign, a marker, or a building or something like that. A rock; anything that’s physical and you can connect to it. And so we connected to Fort Ridgely because of that.

DL: Did you identify with it in any way?

TS: Didn’t know a family history to it and didn’t know a lot because we were not taught it, but I knew, reading enough, there were some interpretive signs out there. I knew that this was an important place.

DL: How about Birch Coulee Battle Field.

TS: I’ve been to Birch Coulee several times. I’ve been to most of these places several times, subsequently. Once I moved back home in ’95, I really got into my family and my town’s history. And so I’ve been to Birch Coulee several times. I found it an interesting place; to see how it’s laid out with just this demarcation of land. There were no buildings there, of course. The interpretive panels onsite helped, but to just stand there and try and envision as the Dakota were slowly creeping up around it, because there’s a bit of a hill, a shielding and they’re advancing. I found that to be an intriguing site.

DL: Lower Sioux Agency.

TS: I’m still fascinated by that place. First of all, it’s significance as the place where many of the Dakota people lived. It’s got the remnant, the warehouseProject with Galbraith’s initials on it. It’s got physical places to connect to; that’s important to me, as obviously you can gather that. I like the interpretive trails established there. They’re themed; I believe one is the Trader’s Trail, one goes down to the river to where the ferry crossed, and I can’t remember what the third trail’s theme is, but no matter- “life on the post”, I suppose, or “the agency”. The building with all the interpretiveHistory displays in there is intriguing. I’ve not been able to get into it since the Lower Sioux Dakota community has taken it over and is effectively operating it [Editor’s note: it isSociety co-managed by the Lower Sioux and the Minnesota Historical Society.] A manOral named Anthony Morse, who I’ve only talked with and written to, has invited me, but it’s just that every time I’m there, it’s not open. So I’m curious to see how they are doing the interpretive panels. 1862 DL: The Upper Sioux Agency. of Historical TS: I’ve been a few times to that. I don’t know enough about that to connect as well as I do, to the other places. War

DL: Traverse des Sioux.

TS: Traverse des Sioux many times. Of course, it’s near St. Peter, which New Ulm people go through to get toMinnesota the Twin Cities. I like that; it’s a different bit of history, it’s not really related to the war. It’s a precursor to the war, perhaps the cause, aside from the Acton event, and probably that treaty was as, or more, important. They’ve got trails as well,U.S.-Dakota which I like. I connect to that more as an insight into Indian life; not so much talking about the war and any of that, because that really wasn’t a war site. It led to it.

DL: How about the Sibley House in Mendota?

TS: Yes, I’ve only been twice to that, and I find it fascinating. I’ve read a couple of biographies of Sibley and have mixed opinions on him. But I’m a big architecture buff too, and it’s fun to see it for that reason alone. By Minnesota standards there’s a very old house there, and Sibley with his fur trading career and such like that. So I’m glad that’s alive, especially in the middle of urbanity all around it.

DL: Fort Snelling.

TS: Fort Snelling many times. I have taken my children- I have two sons that, as we speak, are 21 and 20, named Steve and Sam, and I’ve always taken them to history sites, whether they’ve liked it or not. But they actually did end up liking it. They didn’t choose to study it at Mankato State, but no matter. Fort Snelling was one of those places that is great for kids because the evidence again, history, “his story”, this ephemeral thing that you’re trying to wrap your head around. Seeing something, and Fort Snelling does a great job of that; it’s very visual on the bluff there, confluence to the rivers. And then they do some neat programming there as well, which I just remember the boys really getting into.

DL: Camp Release? Project

TS: Camp Release I’ve been to a very few times; very little there to see. A significant place- I just try to imagine what it would have been like to be there as it’s all coming together. The Indians are realizing: “This is over, what’s our next step.” The soldiers being charged with duties they don’t really know how to discharge.History They began the trials there, I believe, and then moved them to Lower Sioux. A significant place; not much there to identify it, although it simply was a gatheringSociety spot. In working with the Minnesota River Valley Scenic Byway project, we’veOral got some interpretive panels to go up there yet this summer, ideally.

DL: Wood Lake. 1862 of TS: Wood Lake, I’ve been to a few times. HistoricalAn unusual place with the marker on essentially the front yard of a farm place, it’s kind of hard to make the connection there. But now there’s the Wood LakeWar Battlefield Association that’s formed, that has, I think, a long range goal of actually restoring it, having the physical battle site separated and declared sacred to some degree, whether a state park, or whatever it may be.

DL: What’s your opinion of the war? Minnesota TS: That’s such a simple question. I don’t think I ever thought of it. I’m 56 years old, I was number two to be drafted for Vietnam, so my opinion of the war is probably tainted by my youngerU.S.-Dakota experiences of being faced with being an 18-year-old kid being sent off to Vietnam. Being number two meant that you were definitely “going”, you know, it was the lottery system. Number two was going for sure; number 35: maybe; number 70: you’re not going, don’t worry about it, you’re safe. So I think, probably being a young man, being forced in my mind to have to make a decision- I hated the war, I saw no sense in it, it was not America’s war, if nothing else- and seriously thinking of being either a conscientious objector or running to Canada. Gratefully the draft ended--the calling up of soldiers--and I didn’t have to make the decision. But I’m pretty much an anti-war guy; marched in many anti-Vietnam protests; I marched with my family and my boys here in “Get out of Iraq and Afghanistan” things here, so I’m kind of a peace-nick.

And so with that inbred into my person, I wonder how would I have felt? Would I have been so peaceful if I had watched my neighbor be killed, if I had seen my town being burned down around me, if I had had the ability to somehow be removed of it and look at the Indian peoples’ situation- a horrible plight on their part. So there’s nothing good that came out of it. This interview says we’re dealing with it 150 years later. That tells me it really didn’t solve much and probably made greater antagonism, not to mention all of the people dying.

DL: What do you think about the treaties?

TS: As a History major, once I started getting into studying the Dakota Wars and the treaties that led to it and such, I was not surprised. And I don’t mean that in a cynical way, but it’s kind of true. Even American history would tell you these treaties were never going to be altruistic and benevolent to the Indians. So it didn’tProject surprise me, but that’s because of my background and other knowledge I had obtained by then.

DL: Is it a good idea to commemorate the events of the mid 1800’s?

TS: Yes, I think for sure. As maybe the listeners don’t know,History I’m sitting on the Brown County 150th Anniversary Commemoration Committee. We have a long, convoluted name; I’m not sure if that’s actually our title, but anyway, I wouldn’tSociety be sitting on this, volunteering my time, if I didn’t think it was important.Oral History should always be commemorated, remembered, even the unpleasant things should, ideally with the noble intent that you don’t repeat the past where it’s not worth repeating. But if nothing else, you still have to remember it. People are1862 people. Human nature doesn’t change. If we can learn, gosh, we’re people, and justof 150 years ago these people fought just like we did; different context in time, but I don’t thinkHistorical people were essentially different. And so if we can learn what not to do, there’s some good to come from it. War DL: What is the best way to commemorate these events?

TS: Oh, I don’t know that. I don’t know the single best way. What we’re doing, these are good ways, but I don’t know that it’s the best way. We’re doing tours of the sites. Again, if you’re able to listenMinnesota to me talk, being able to connect to the past by some physical evidence is very important. So the tours will achieve that; both walking tours and driving tours as well. We’ll have speakers in. That’s always good; get people who have trulyU.S.-Dakota studied it, from multiple viewpoints as well. And I think we’re doing a good job of that- or will be next year. Releasing books. And there’s just the general interest in this. We’ve got more books coming out on the Sioux Uprising, U.S.-Dakota War. I wonder what it will be called in the year 2080? Do we know of any historical event that has changed names as many times as this thing? I’m being a little cynical, but observationally clever, I think. So the interest is generated for people to dig in deeper to different parts. A friend of mine, Gary Wiltscheck, is releasing a book on the Leavenworth Rescue Expedition. One of Gary’s goals was to figure out where the road went, and just to connect that sort of thing. So the awareness of this has people digging deeper. I hope to release a book doing three stories of Luxembourgers, the Mary

Schmitz Ryan ancestor, and John Schmitz, as well as another man that is not related to this. Maybe in time. So it’s generating interest and remembering. Enough said.

DL: If you were a Dakota person, do you think it would be easy to live in New Ulm today?

TS: It’s difficult for a born and bred white man to try and get into some other culture’s head. I like to think that if anything is written on my gravestone it will be, “He hated bigotry.” Which is kind of a crazy thing: that you hate hatred. So I like to think that I would be very welcoming; it would not matter one ounce to me if a Dakota moved next door to me; if my boy married a Dakota woman- that would be a non-issue to me. It would be interesting, in fact, to more readily learn from a different culture.

But would a Dakota person moving here feel that way? We did a thingProject called the “Reconciliation”; I believe it was the year 2000, very near that. And I can tell you the long story of how that came about, but I don’t know that it’s necessary. The point is that a great deal of the Dakota community came from Canada and the Western states as well, to New Ulm, Minnesota. And there were guys telling us--and they’re probably 3-5 generations away from that as well: “We were raised to thinkHistory of New Ulm as a bad town.” This is where two battles took place and then after the battles as Sibley is bringing the so-called guilty 303 people through, how the NewSociety Ulm people attacked them. I believe two people died from their woundsOral as they passed through New Ulm.

And so I can see where a Dakota person might not think it’s the nicest place to live. And I struggle with the: But my family lived1862 through it. Their farms were ruined. One of the brothers was killed two years previous,of and you now know, there’s a connection to that. I’m over it. How come they’re not overHistorical it? And I don’t mean that in a sad, judgmental way; I mean it literally as a question, I mean it as an open question: why aren’t they over it? What reasons?War What way of their thinking and living, understanding of time and that sort of thing do they have different than I, that doesn’t allow them to get over it, as it were? And you know how I feel. I commemorate history whenever I can, so I don’t mean that in a negative way.

I’ve been told that maybeMinnesota if I was not on the so-called “winning side”, I might have a different view. My people were not banished from the state, forced to live in bad conditions in South Dakota, taught in schools where they were encouraged, if not forced, U.S.-Dakotato abandon their culture . I realize that I come from a whole different background that way, and so “getting over it” isn’t the right term, of course. But I think a Dakota person would be welcome now, to come back to the very question you asked. I think a Dakota person would be welcomed in New Ulm. I can’t believe there would be any prejudice against them, and if there was, it would be so minimal, as would probably be applied to any minority in any situation.

DL: Debates over the cause of the war and the aftermath continue, and one that we heard second-hand was this: If what occurred at Milford was genocide, in that the Dakota just came through and said: we’re going to kill everybody- if that was genocide,

and the American Indians claim genocide was wrought upon them; well, here was an example of them using those same tactics on non-Indians. The argument could be made from the Dakota perspective: Look, they shouldn’t have been there in the first place. We don’t care if they were German and ignorant. We didn’t care that they had papers or they didn’t have papers, or that they had bought something, or they hadn’t bought something. That was irrelevant to us. What was relevant to us was the fact that our lives were taken from us once the land was gone. Therefore, it was a justifiable war. What is your thought on that argument?

TS: Well, as a student of history, I’m sure my views are probably different than somebody off the street that hadn’t put any thought or effort into this. I am not surprised by it. I think that the Indians were, to their mind, justified: “This is our last chance.” The repercussions from the Acton incident, coupled with them knowing the Civil War was going on, being forced to live in a way that is just horrible. I mean, if Projectany white person was forced to live the way the Indians were, they would uprise too. How can that not be? So human nature is the same here. I think the Indians simply took advantage of the single little window of opportunity they saw, and hoped to make the best of it.

Just last year my wife and I went to Greece, Albania, Montenegro,History Croatia and Bosnia. We were in a place called Mostar, Bosnia. A famous old bridge is there; fights take place essentially between ethnicities as well as Muslim andSociety Christian. And on one of the most historic sites in that town, it’s just a littleOral rock put in a corner: “Remember 1993” referring to when that town was attacked. So human nature is telling me, almost literally halfway around the world, the same thing: we can’t forget about things, but stuff happens. It’s always going to happen. 1862I hate to say that; it sounds very cynical. I like to think I’m a pretty optimistic, upbeatof person, but I don’t blame the Indians. They were pushed in a corner and when they uprose, Historicalthey became a bad guys. If everything was taken away from me, I probably would have done the same thing. War DL: Thanks for your time.

Minnesota

U.S.-Dakota