faJUtl&fp j y ^ V No. 4 ' Weekly Edition REPU^lC OF SOUTH AFRICA ^ HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY DEBATES (HAN S ARsQ) THIRD SESSION — THIRD PARLIAMENT

26th FEBRUARY to 1st MARCH, 1968

The sign * indicates that the speech was delivered in Afrikaans and then translated. Where both official languages are used in the same ministerial speech, t indicates the original and * the translated version. CONTENTS Stages of Bills taken without debate are not indicated below COL. NO. COL. NO. M onday, 26th February Births, Marriages and Deaths Registra­ tion Amendment Bill—Second Human Sciences Research Bill—Com­ Reading ...... 1220 mittee ...... 1119 Wine and Spirits Control Amendment Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Amend­ Bill—Second Reading ...... 1229 ment Bill—Third Reading ...... 1120 Bantu Administration by Local Authori­ Indians Advanced Technical Education ties—Motion ...... 1231 Bill—Committee ...... 1123 South African Indian Council Bill—Sec­ W ednesday, 28th F ebruary ond Reading...... 1124 Report of Commission of Enquiry into Wine. Other Fermented Beverages and Improper Political Interference and Spirits Amendment Bill—Second Political Representation of the Reading...... 1156 Various Population Group s— Waterval River (Lydenburg) Bill—Sec­ Motion ...... 1265 ond Reading ...... 1158 T hursday, 29th F ebruary Transkei Constitution Amendment Bill —Second Reading ...... 1160 Inauguration of State President-Elect— Statement...... 1327 T uesday, 27th F ebruary Report of Commission of Enquiry into Questions and replies ...... 1168 Improper Political Interference and Political Representation of the Suid-Afrikaanse Akademie vir Weten- Various Population Group s— skap en Kuns Amendment Bill— Motion (Resumed Debate)...... 1330 Third Reading ...... 1207 Universities Amendment Bill—Third F riday, 1st M arch Reading ...... 1209 Questions and replies...... 1391 Indians Advanced Technical Education Report of Commission of Enquiry into Bill—Third Reading...... 1211 Improper Political Interference and South African Indian Council Bill— Political Representation of the Committee ...... 1213 Various Population Group s—- Transkei Constitution Amendment Bill Motion (Resumed Debate)...... 1417 —Committee ...... 1214 Liaison Between the Legislature and Public Service Amendment Bill—Second Scientific Research Institutions— Reading ...... 1215 Motion ...... 1442 Marriage Amendment Bill—Second Co-ordination of Health Service— Reading ...... 1216 M otion...... 1474

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SPEAKER: The Hon. H. J. K lopper, M.P. DEPUTY SPEAKER AND CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: M r. D. J. G. van den H eever, M.P. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (ACTING SPEAKER): M r. J. H. Visse, M.P. SECRETARY TO THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY: M r. R. J. M cFarlane. 1

I THE MINISTRY " * f

CABINET MINISTERS

Prime M inister and Minister of Police The Hon. B. J. VORSTER, M.P. M inister of T ransport...... The Hon. B. J. SCHOEMAN, M.P. M inister of N ational Education and of InformaIA-­ tion ...... The Hon. Senator J. DE KLERK. M inister of the I nterior The Hon. P. M. K. LE ROUX, M.P. M inister of Community D evelopment, of Public \ Works and of Social Welfare and Pensions .. J The Hon. W. A. MAREE, M.P. Minister of F inance Dr. the Hon. N. DIEDERICHS, M.P. Minister of Health Dr. the Hon. A. HERTZOG, M.P. Minister of Agriculture and of W ater Affairs .. The Hon. D. C. H. UYS, M.P. Minister of Immigration and of Indian Affairs .. The Hon. Senator A. E. TROLLIP. Minister of D efence .. ' .. The Hon. P. W. BOTHA, M.P. Minister of F orestry, of Tourism and of Sport \ The Hon. F. W. WARING, M.P. and R ecreation i Minister of F oreign Affairs Dr. the Hon. H. MULLER, M.P. Minister of Economic Affairs The Hon. J. F. W. HAAK, M.P. Minister of L abour and of Coloured Affairs The Hon. M. VILJOEN, M.P. Minister of Bantu A dministration and D evelop­ ment and of Bantu Education The Hon. M. C. BOTHA, M.P. M inister of Justice and of Prisons The Hon. P. C. PELSER, M.P. M inister of Mines and of P lanning Dr. the Hon. C. DE WET, M.P. Minister of Posts and Telegraphs .. The Hon. M. C. G. J. VAN RENSBUR M.P.

DEPUTY MINISTERS ê

D eputy M inister for South W est A frica A ffairs and of T r a n s p o r t ...... The Hon. J. G. H. VAN DER WATH, M.i . D eputy Minister of Agriculture The Hon. H. E. MARTINS, M.P. D eputy M inister of Bantu Administration and Education The Hon. B. COETZEE, M.P. D eputy Minister of Bantu D evelopment The Hon. A. H. VOSLOO, M.P. D eputy Minister of Police, of F inance and of E co­ nomic Af f a ir s ...... The Hon. S. L. MULLER, M.P. D eputy Minister of Water Affairs .. The Hon. S. P. BOTHA, M.P. 1117 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1118 own affairs and their own communities. This created for those people. However, one will is being done for the entire community and always find such a group of people whom one not only for a few select ones or individuals simply cannot settle within a community. One in that community. We are going to afford the will find that everywhere. And to hold up the entire community that opportunity, and that few squatters there are—and they are often is why I think it will eventually be a better colourful personalities—as proof to the effect basis. And then the hon. member also made that municipalities are not capable of housing a great fuss here about the removal of the those people, is really very far-fetched. Bantu from the Western Cape. *Mr. G. S. EDEN: Particularly the rural *Mr. G. S. EDEN: The municipalities are areas. complaining themselves.

*The MINISTER: The hon. member says *The MINISTER: But look, the municipali­ particularly the rural areas. With great ver­ ties are complaining because there is an un­ bosity he wanted to know who would take controlled influx of Coloureds from the rural those people’s place and, where residential areas to the townships. areas had been developed for them, who would live in them and what would become of them. It should be borne in mind that this *Mr. G. S. EDEN: I am talking about the process is a slow one which will take place rural areas only. over a period of many years. It will only be possible to realize this when the Coloured com­ *The MINISTER: That influx from the rural munity itself has shown such an increase in areas to the towns is a serious problem. As far numbers that it will be able to take over the as the Coloureds are concerned, it is a prob­ work, and when the industries and the white lem about which we cannot do much. We have public will at the same time be in a position to in fact taken a step in that direction, namely manage with the aid of more modem methods by making it possible, through the agency of and less labour. All those things are being in­ the Department of Agriculture with its agri­ troduced systematically, and to that extent the cultural credit schemes, for farmers to house withdrawal of the Bantu is gradual, because their servants on their farms by means of aid one has also to make provision in the places they are granted by the State. In that way they are being sent to. That is why this is not housing is being improved in the rural areas something which will happen overnight. Where as well. At the moment the scheme is still new housing is being provided for the Bantu being worked out. but it will be put into in Bantu residential areas, in the rural areas operation. I honestly think that it is not neces­ as well, it is the policy to do so in such a way sary for me to go into the finer details any that when they are eventually moved there, it further. To summarize I may just say that the will be possible to use those residential areas entire matter of the financial ability of local for the Coloureds. Some adjustment and the authorities, has been investigated. The report repair of houses may perhaps be necessary. will soon be available and members will have It is foreseen that this may eventually happen. access to it. Secondly, not one of the examples Therefore I do not think that the hon. mem­ that were quoted by hon. members is substan­ ber needs to be concerned about the fact that tial enough to justify a special inquiry. In re­ this will eventually place an unnecessary bur­ spect of all of them the necessary provision den on the municipalities. And then the hon. has already been made and the State, with the member tried to point out that the local extensive aid it is granting to municipalities authorities were financially not in a position and local authorities, has made it possible for to carry out this task. As proof for that he them to carry out their task properly. mentioned the example of squatters who were building tin shanties for themselves on the common or along the roads or beneath trees *Mr. G. S. EDEN: In view of the fact that near Colesberg and living there. But the hon. the hon. the Minister has given us the assur­ member knows just as well as I and every ance that the aspects which were discussed here other member in this House, that in every this afternoon have formed part of the terms community, in the white community as well, of reference and the discussions of the there is a certain percentage of people in re­ Borckenhagen Commission, I withdraw the spect of whom one simply cannot provide motion with the permission of the House. housing. We have also had this experience as far as the Whites are concerned. The best and most attractive sub-economic bouses are built *Dr. J. D. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, as is ous- for them at a particularly low rate of rentals, tomary and with the leave of this House, I, but those people simply do not want to live on behalf of this side of the House, ask that within the community. They move out and my amendment be withdrawn. using sheets of corrugated iron or whatever, they build for themselves another place to With leave, amendment and motion with­ live in elsewhere. There are many such places drawn. on the outskirts of Pretoria. That is not so as a result of the fact that facilities cannot be The House adjourned at 5.57 p.m. 22—A.H. Vol, I 1119 26th FEBRUARY, 1968 1120

MONDAY, 26TH FEBRUARY, 1968 *The MINISTER: That is so. Amendment put and agreed to. Prayers—2.20 p.m. Clause, as amended, put and agreed to.

WAR GRAVES AMENDMENT BILL Clause 8: Bill read a First Time. Mr. P. A. MOORE: I should like the hon. the Minister to explain the first section of clause 8. It is not very well stated in the CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AMENDMENT English version, and I presume the Afrikaans BILL version is very much the same. Does it actually mean that when a man is transferred from a (Senate amendments) Government Department to this Department he will lose nothing in his pension rights or Amendments in clause 9 put and agreed to. salary? SUID-AFRIKAANSE AKADEMIE VIR The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDU­ WETENSKAP EN RUNS AMENDMENT CATION: Yes. BILL Mr. P. A. MOORE: Then surely it could Committee Stage taken without debate. have been stated more simply. HUMAN SCIENCES RESEARCH BILL Clause put and agreed to. Committee Stage. House Resumed: Clause 1: Bill reported with an amendment. Mr. P. A. MOORE: Under paragraph (viii) UNIVERSITIES AMENDMENT BILL “research” is defined as “research in the field of the human sciences in connection with all Committee Stage taken without debate. national groups”. Will the hon. the Minister tell us whether non-Whites will be employed PROHIBITION OF MIXED MARRIAGES in this research and, secondly, whether there AMENDMENT BILL will be research into the cultural life of non- Whites generally? (Third Reading) The MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDU­ CATION : Research for non-Whites will be Speaker, I move— conducted. That the Bill be now read a Third Time. Clause put and agreed to. Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, we on this side have already at the second reading Clause 3: discussed at length our objections to this Bill, the reasons why we felt the Bill should be *The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDU­ amended, and the reasons why we felt the CATION : I move the amendment printed on Bill offended against the institution of mar­ the Order Paper, as follows— riage, against the ceremony of marriage and against the normal attitude that one has to­ To omit subsection (3). wards the rights of children whose existence would be prejudiced and whose existence was I understand there is a difficulty in connection hardly their fault. We dealt with those points with this subsection, which provides that no in the second reading. During the Committee research shall be conducted by another De­ Stage we had no debate because what we partment of State without the approval of the wanted to do in the way of an amendment Minister. There are, however, minor matters was ruled out of order. Here we are dealing in respect of which research is conducted by merely with the contents of this Bill at the other departments, and in order not to em­ third reading. The principle has been agreed barrass them I am going to delete this sub­ to. The principle is interesting, because during section, so that they need not approach the the Committee Stage, what arose was this. The Minister for approval in regard to every principle was not, as the hon. the Minister trifling matter. If there appears to be some himself conceded when he introduced the Bill, overlapping later, it will be ironed out ad­ one of prohibition of mixed marriages. The ministratively. Minister agreed that everyone on both sides of the House did not want mixed marriages. *Mr. P. A. MOORE: You explained that at But the principle, as it emerged after the the second reading. Chairman’s ruling during the Committee Stage, 1121 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1122

was that what we wanted to do was to protect I mentioned a moment ago, that is to say, the rights of a wife, married absolutely bona when two persons are married in good faith fide but yet offending against the provisions of by an officer acting in good faith. Such a this Act. In the second place, the children marriage is not recognized here. It is national born out of such a marriage should likewise policy not to recognize it. That such marriages have their rights protected. The Minister him­ should be recognized, also runs counter to the self argued on the point of order during the views of the Opposition. Any marriage be­ Committee Stage and he in effect said the tween persons who are domiciled in this coun­ principle of this Bill is to extend none of those try and then leave the country and get married privileges and none of those protections to abroad, is not recognized in this country the wife or anyone else. either. Neither is the legitimacy of their chil­ The position in which we on this side now dren recognized, for the simple reason that find ourselves is that we have this Bill in their children take their domicile from their exactly the same form as it was when it was fathers, who are domiciled in South Africa, introduced, without our having had the op­ where the marriage is not recognized. But the portunity of amending it. We find ourselves in kind of marriage that will be affected by this this extraordinary position that if one con­ Bill is of quite a different nature. Such a tracts a marriage which is a mixed marriage, marriage can be duly contracted abroad and that is to say a marriage between a white will be completely valid. Since the father must and a non-white person, in the Republic, we of necessity be domiciled abroad, the children have the provision that any such marriage will have the benefit of such a valid marriage shall be deemed to be valid. The marriage abroad. Since the father is domiciled there, itself is deemed to be valid if it has been the children will be legitimate. Under these solemnized in good faith by a marriage offi­ circumstances I cannot see at all in what re­ cer, if neither of the parties has made a false spect any of the children are being done an statement, and if the parties appear to be what injustice. The only difficulty is that a man can they profess to be. In this country that mar­ in fact leave his wife and return to this coun­ riage is valid; it is deemed to be valid. Fur­ try. That is not an uncommon occurrence thermore, any children born or conceived of either, because it has already happened in the such a marriage before it is declared invalid, past. An English lady made use of that provi­ are deemed to be legitimate. It seems incon­ sion in our law when she was married to a ceivable that this should not be applied to South African Bantu abroad and subsequently those persons who are married outside the discovered what the law in this country was. Republic, where the sanctions are not so great, She came back to South Africa and applied where one is not so much aware of these for a divorce here. I readily concede to the things, where one is not on the look-out for hon. member that this does happen. However, these things and where one is not so careful of it cannot be said that the children are being these things. Nevertheless, here it is. The done an injustice. Minister has spoken about this Bill as being a logical consequence of the first enactment, Motion put and the House divided: of the original Act. Well, it is no logical con­ sequence surely where you have a provision A yes— 99: Bezuidenhout, G. P. C.; Boden that in this country such a marriage is deemed stein, P.; Botha, H. J.; Botha, M C to be valid, but that a man can go out of the Botha, M. W.; Botha, P. W.; Botha, S. p'. country, get married and come back again, Carr, D. M.; Coetzee, B.; Coetzee, J. A and forget every vow that he ever made in Cruywagen, W. A.; De Jager, P. R.; Dei his church and forget every obligation that he port, W. H.; De Wet, J. M.; De Wet, M has to his wife. It is not logical. We on this W.; Du Plessis, H. R. H.; Engelbrecht, J side feel that our approach to this matter is J.; Erasmus, J. J. P.; Frank, S.; Grey more logical, it is certainly more humane, and ling, J. C.; Grobler, M. S. F.; Haak, J. F it is certainly more practical. For those W.; Havemann, W. W. B; Henning, J M reasons, which I do not want to dwell on Herman, F.; Hertzog, A.; Heystek, J. now because we dealt with this at great length Horn, J. W. L.; Janson, T. N. H.; Jurgens in this Flouse. we on this side will vote against J. C.; Keyter, H. C. A.; Koornhof, P. G. the third reading of this Bill. J; Kotz, S. F.; Kruger, J. T.; Langley, ♦The MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. T.: Le Grange, L.; Le Roux, F. J.; Le Speaker, the argument advanced by the hon. Roux, P. M. K.; Loots, J. J.; Malan, G. member for Durban (North) would have held F., Malan, J. J.; Malan, W. C.; Marais, water, were it not for one fact, namely that J. A.; Marais, P. S.; Marais, W T.;’ we have control over our marriage officers in Maree, G. de K.; Martins, H. E.; McLach- South Africa. If the hon. member reads the lan, R.; Meyer, P. H.; Morrison, G. de V • Act he will see that it must be a marriage Mulder, C. P.; Muller, H.; Muller, S. L.: solemnized by the marriage officer in good Otto, J. C.; Pelser, P. C.; Pienaar, B.;’ faith, and that neither of the parties must have Potgieter, J. E.; Rail, J. W.; Rail, M. J- acted other than in good faith. Then only is Rauhenheimer, A. J.; Raubenheimer A the marriage recognized by us. L.; Reinecke, C. J.; Rossouw, W. J. C.; Sadie, N. C. van R.: Schoeman. B J • Returning to the question of children I Schoeman, J. C. B.; Smit, H. H.; Smith! want to say this. In the first place, a marriage J. D.; Steyn, A. N.; Stofberg, L F • contracted in this country differs from the case Swanepoel, J. W. F.; Swiegers, J. G ; Tor- 1123 26th FEBRUARY, 1968 1124

lage, P. H.; Treurnicht, N. F; Uys, D. Mr. P. A. MOORE: Having said that, I pre­ C. H.; Van Breda, A.; Van den Berg, G. sume the hon. the Minister will approve of the P.; Van den Berg, M. J.; Van den Heever, ordinary people co-opted by the council under D. J. G.; Van der Merwe, C. V.; Van der 8 (1) (g)? Is that the intention? Merwe, H. D. K.; Va nder Merwe, S. W.; Van Rensburg, M. C. G. J.; Van Staden, The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: J. W.; Van Tonder, J. A.; Van Vuuren, Yes. P. Z. J.; Van Zyl, J. J. B.; Venter, M. J. de la R.; Viljoen, M.; Visse, J. H.; Visser, A. J.; Volker, V. A.; Vorster, B. J.; Vos- Clause put and agreed to. loo, A. H.; Vosloo, W. L.; Waring, F. W.; Wentzel, J. J. G. Clause 24: Tellers: P. S. van der Merwe and W. L. D. The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: M. Venter. I move as an amendment— In line 21, after “to”, where it occurs for N oes—34: Basson, J. A. L.; Basson, J. D. du P.; Bennett, C.; Bloomberg, A.; Con- the second time, to insert “execute and”. nan, J. M.; Eden, G. S.; Emdin, S.; Fisher, E. L.; Graaff, De V.; Hourquebie, R. G. This, Mr. Chairman, is a matter of convey­ L.; Jacobs, G. F.; Kingwill, W. G.; Lewis, ancing. H. M.; Lindsay, J. E.; Malan, E. G.; Mit­ chell, D. E.; Mitchell, M. L.; Moolman, Amendment put and agreed to. J. H.; Moore, P. A.; Murray, L. G.; Old­ field, G. N.; Radford, A.; Raw, W. V.; Clause, as amended, put and agreed to. Smith. W. J. B.; Streicher, D. M.; Sutton, W. M.; Taylor, C. D.; Thompson, J. O. House Resumed: N.; Timoney, H. M.; Wainwright, C. J. S.; Wiley, J. W. E.; Winchester, L. E. D. Bill reported with an amendment.

Tellers: H. J. Bronkhorst and A. Hopewell. SOUTH AFRICAN INDIAN COUNCIL BILL Motion accordingly agreed to. (Second Reading) Bill read a Third Time. The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: SLUMS AMENDMENT BILL I move— Bill read a Third Time. That the Bill be now read a Second Time. INDIANS ADVANCED TECHNICAL The present South African Indian Council of EDUCATION BILL 21 members was instituted by my predecessor on the 3rd February, 1964, after he had had a Committee Stage. conference with the Indian leaders in Pretoria towards the end of 1963. The purpose of that Clause 8: conference was to promote the establishment of a body which would facilitate contact be­ Mr. P. A. MOORE: Clause 8 (1) (b) makes tween the Indians and the Government. It was provision for the election by local authorities there agreed that a nominated administrative, of one or two persons to the council. What I consultative body, to be known as the Natio­ should like to know from the Minister is how nal Indian Council, should be instituted as an many of these local authorities there are. The interim measure to assist the Department of Minister mentioned some when he introduced Indian Affairs to develop the ultimate pattern the Bill. Furthermore, will it be at the discre­ of representation and to serve as a contact tion of these local authorities whether the between the Government and the Indian com­ person or persons they elect are Whites or In­ munity until such time as it became expedient dians? Will it be at their discretion? to introduce a more permanent statutory body. Hon. members will remember that at that The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: stage there was a concerted campaign to cast Yes. Of course, they must be donors. doubt on the Government’s intentions and bona fides in regard to the Indians, with the Mr. P. A. MOORE: Yes. That is under­ result that some Indian leaders, who feared stood. Then I have another question. What victimization and ostracism, were reluctant to does the hon. the Minister have in mind under come forward to serve on the council. Never­ 1 (e)? Does he intend appointing Whites and theless, on the 3rd February, 1964, the names Indians, or only people from one race group? of 21 prominent Indians who were prepared to serve on the National Indian Council, later The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: to be known as the South African Indian Whites and Indians. Council, were announced. And I think to-day 1125 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1126

I should pay tribute to those men who, in stage there will be practical difficulties in the spite of abuse and threats, had the courage to way of compiling a voters’ roll. It will be co-operate with the Department of Indian possible, later, to use the voters’ rolls of local Affairs in working out the future development committees or Indian authorities as a basis for of the Indian community in South Africa. the compilation of comprehensive rolls for use After the events of 1963 and 1964 a period in council elections. The demarcation of elec­ of consolidation followed with the Indian toral divisions, the fixing of quotas, the deter­ Council finding its feet and gradually fulfill­ mination of the qualifications of voters, etc., ing the role for which it had been created. It are all factors militating against the immediate soon became apparent, however, that the time creation of an elected body. But it will be one was fast approaching for the creation of a of the tasks of the statutory council which is more permanent body with wider powers and being created in terms of this Bill, to give functions. The South African Indian Council attention to these matters as soon as practicable, was consequently asked to appoint an ad hoc because the next step in the development of committee to advise the Department of Indian Indian affairs is the establishment of an elected Affairs on the question of the conversion of controlling body. I give hon. members the the present council into a statutory body. assurance that this will be done as soon as cir­ This ad hoc committee duly reported to the cumstances permit and in full consultation with full council in February, 1967, and recom­ the statutory council now being created. In the mended an ultimate representative council meantime the council, as a statutory body, will based largely on the pattern of the Coloured be able to pursue even more effectively its Persons Representative Council. The ad hoc functions as a channel between the Govern­ committee felt, however, that it could not ment and the Indian community. It will also make final recommendations in regard to be in the position to initiate its future role as matters concerning provincial representations, the top Indian statutory body empowered to voters’ qualifications, certain wards, etc., and control other statutory bodies provided for in it finally recommended “. . . that the present measures affecting the Indians. nominated advisory South African Indian Sir, this is all I want to say by way of intro­ Council be elevated to statutory status as from duction. Other aspects of detail can be dealt the date on which the contemplated Act (i.e. with when the various clauses of the Bill are this Bill) is assented to by the State President discussed in committee. and remain in office until the date on which Clauses 1 and 2 provide for the establish- the first elected council is constituted.” It is sisting of not more than '25 members and clear, therefore, that the introduction of this appointed on a provincial basis. Bill conforms with the feelings of the present A council consisting of 25 members is neces­ South African Indian Council, which unanim­ sary to give the widest possible representation ously adopted the ad hoc committee’s report. to individuals representing the various inter­ Sir, I may say that on the 20th of this month ests of the Indian community, e.g. education, the Indian Council met in Cape Town. 1 have commerce, industry, agriculture, social welfare, a resolution here which they passed in regard transport, health, local government, labour, to this bill and which reads as follows— sport and the like. The South African Indian Council wishes Clause 4 makes provision for oath-taking by to express its appreciation for having been members of the Council, as was recommended fully consulted in regard to the Indians Ad­ by the ad hoc committee. Clause 15 contains vanced Technical Education Bill (the one the alternative, namely that a solemn affirma­ which the House has passed) and the South tion may be made in lieu of an oath. African Indian Council Bill. These two Bills Clauses 5 and 6 provide for such matters as as drafted were circulated to all council the period of appointment, the filling of vacan­ members and were discussed by them at a cies. disqualifications, etc., and I do not think I council meeting held in Cape Town on the need elaborate on those. 20th February, 1968. The Council wishes to Clause 7 provides for the chairmanship of place on record that the South African In­ the council. When the present council was con- dian Council Bill is an evolutionary step to­ constituted it was necessary, in order to main­ wards the envisaged social and political de­ tain the necessary liaison and co-ordination, to velopment of the Indian community and appoint the Secretary for Indian Affairs as that the measure has the full and the Chairman of the council. This temporary ad­ unanimous support of the present South ministrative arrangement now falls away and African Indian Council. the council, by electing a chairman from amongst its members, becomes an all-Indian But, Sir, I anticipate that the question will no body. doubt still be raised as to why the council will Clause 9 allows council members freedom of consist of nominated members only. The ans­ expression and protects them from legal action wer is that it is undesirable to delay the crea­ being taken against them in regard to matters tion of a statutory body until such time as all raised in the council. The council will there­ arrangements can be completed for an elected fore be able to discuss freely any matter which council. The Indians are in the process of be­ affects the Indian population. Clauses 10 and ing resettled in Indian Group Areas, and until 11 provide for an executive committee, which resettlement has reached a more advanced will carry out functions delegated to it by the 1127 26th FEBRUARY, 1968 1128 council. This measure maintains the present It comes at a time when there is marked en­ organization of the existing council, except that thusiasm noticeable amongst Indian leaders to members of the executive committee are now serve on the council and to share the respons­ being bound to observe the confidential nature ibilities of the future development of the Indian of their duties. community. I may tell hon. members that I Clause 12 provides for the remuneration of already have a list of candidates who have members of the council and the Executive Com­ approached me for membership of this statu­ mittee. So far, council members have only tory Indian Council. been paid certain daily allowances for their attendance at meetings and for their subsist­ Mr. D. E. MITCHELL: I would like for a ence and travelling when attending those meet­ moment to take a general view of this Bill, ings. Experience has proved, however, that the not only in respect of what is here before us calls made by the Indian community and by but in respect of what the hon. the Minister has other bodies on the time of council members said. I think one must be struck at once by the involve them in considerable expense which fact that a statutory body is being created here they have to pay out of their own pockets. It is which has virtually no power except that of therefore only just that they receive some re­ advising the Minister. I do not think the Minis­ muneration for their services. ter will disagree with that assessment of the Clause 13 sets out the functions of the coun­ position. When one leaves out all the frills and cil. These confirm the council’s liaison with the machinery which is being created to estab­ the Government in respect of matters affecting lish this new council and its Executive Commit­ the Indian community. I would like just for a tee, the payment of their fees, etc., one must minute to expand, however, on the provision still come to the conclusion that except for that the council shall receive and consider re­ advising the Minister there is no power vested commendations and resolutions of the Educa­ in this new council. The Minister anticipated tion Advisory council established under the In­ that there would be criticism because the coun­ dians Education Act of 1965. It is envisaged cil was not an elected one. I think that is quite that education should eventually be supervised a valid criticism. The Minister said there were by the ultimate representative Indian Council. difficulties in getting voters’ rolls prepared, etc., The object is now to enable the South African and that that may take a long time, and in Indian Council, through this measure and by the meantime he wants to have a statutory way of orientation, to gain experience in evalu­ body. He has the present advisory body. What ating and commenting upon proposals of the is this one now before us? It is a statutory Education Advisory Council. body with precisely the same powers, as far as one can judge, as the present Advisory Com­ mittee. In passing, may I say that the hon. the Mr. P. A. MOORE: Does that include higher Minister went out of his way to laud the cour­ education at the university college? age of the members who were prepared to serve on this Advisory Committee. He pointed The MINISTER: No, I think there is some to ‘them as brave men who took their courage special provision there. in both hands and were prepared to co-operate with the Government, but now that he is going Mr. P. A. MOORE: And advanced techni­ to pay them for their services he has a waiting cal education? list of new candidates who are coming along prepared to serve on this new council. That The MINISTER: Yes, eventually it will come seems to be the great difference as far as the under the Indian Council. A further considera­ mental approach of the leaders of the commun­ tion in this regard is the fact that as the South ity is concerned. They are not standing for African Indian Council now becomes the upper­ election but they are putting their names for­ most statutory Indian body, other statutory ward and saying to the Minister: “What about bodies established for Indians should fully appointing me? I am a man who is qualified for liaise with it. The intention is clear. The South this job.” I think that when you read the cor­ African Indian Council must be placed in a respondence in the daily Press coming from position where it will be able to fulfil its role Indians, you realize that there is no great lik­ when it is given fuller administrative and legis­ ing amongst the rank and file of Indians for lative control over matters affecting the affairs this legislation. of the Indian community. The provisions in subsections (2), (3) and An HON. MEMBER: Where is your proof (4) of clause 13 in regard to the participation for that? of the Secretary for Indian Affairs or members of his staff in the affairs of the council are de­ Mr. D. E. MITCHELL: I said it was in the signed to synchronize the work of the council daily Press. If the hon. member can read, which with that of the Department of Indian Affairs. I assume he can, and if he reads the daily I do not think that the remaining clauses call Press, he will see the letters. If he wants any for any comment. more enlightenment on that point, I have I want to say, finally, that this measure be­ dozens of cuttings I can let him have, and he fore the House constitutes a further step for­ can regale himself by reading what the ordinary ward in the implementation of Government rank and file of Indians think about this pro­ policy in regard to the Indians in the Republic. posal. 1129 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1130

I should like to deal with one or two of the by the executive committee of the council. matters dealt with by the Minister. Firstly, let Provision is also made for a solemn affir­ me say that when we are dealing with this mation in the same words. Those oaths end future body, we must remember that, after this with “So help me God”. I really think the statutory body has been created and after it hon. the Minister should reconsider this. Why has been working for a while, and after it has is an oath of that character laid down to be given its advice to the Government and then taken by Hindus, Moslems and various other comes the future body which the hon. the sub-groups of the Indian people? Admittedly Minister foresees, the body which is going to many members of the Indian group are have those powers, whatever may be delegated Christians. But to the non-Christian members to it by Parliament. The Minister says that will of the Indian community that type of oath be an elected controlling body. When the means nothing whatsoever. Minister replies I hope he will tell us whether that is to ibe a body consisting wholly of elected The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: representatives. His exact words were, “an That is why there is the alternative. elected controlling body”. Does he mean wholly elected representatives, or will some of them Mr. D. E. MITCHELL: But the alternative be appointed and some elected? is an affirmation which has the same words. The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU Some will be nominated and some will be ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: elected. Should it be “So help me Allah”? Mr. D. E. MITCHELL: I want to thank Mr. D. E. MITCHELL: It may well be so, the hon. the Minister for answering that at I doubt whether they would say, “So help me once. Apparently it will not be an elected the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration controlling body. The Minister makes it clear and Education” ! However high he may place now that some will be appointed, so that it himself in the hierarchy on earth, I do not will be a body consisting partly of elected think the Indians would go as far as that. I people and partly of appointed people. No suggest that the Minister should reconsider doubt the numbers will be decided at some this matter. future time. The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: As far as clause 2 (2) is concerned, we have I may say that the Indian Council asked for rather a curious position here. When the the oath to be in those words. [Interjections.] Minister spoke just now he said the members of this council would be appointed from the Mr. D. E. MITCHELL: I am sorry. That various provinces; they would represent the kind of assurance, and the Minister will ap­ various provinces. The whole of the Republic preciate this, leaves me stone-cold, as did the would be adequately represented. But clause message which he read which was issued en­ 2 (2) provides that “when the Minister ap­ tirely unsolicited and which he read at the points a member of the council the Minister end of his speech just now. It was a message shall indicate which of the said provinces such from the present Indian Council expressing member is to represent”. Surely that is a most their approval of the Government and all it extraordinary provision if the members whom had done, how happy they were to colla­ the Minister appoints are going to represent borate, etc. I have lived in official circles far the areas from which they come. The picture too long to let a thing like that unduly worry presented by the Minister was of a Repub­ my conscience. I shall sleep quite happy to­ lican widespread representation of Indians by night with all the doubts in the world as to Indians. With the exception of the Orange the authenticity of these entirely unsolicited Free State Indians are found in the other testimonials which come from members of the three provinces. Here is a clause which per­ present Indian Council, until the new council mits the Minister to say to an Indian who, has been appointed by the Minister. If I am for instance, comes from Natal, “I am ap­ told that the members of the present council pointing you now and I deem you to repre­ suggested this type of oath, then I want to sent the Transvaal”, or the Cape, as the case ask the Minister this: Are all the present may be, or somewhere else. Otherwise why is members of the Indian Council Christians? there such a provision? The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: An HON. MEMBER: Or a portion thereof. No, I should not think so. Mr. D. E. MITCHELL: Yes, it may be a Mr. D. E. MITCHELL: Can one imagine portion thereof. I want to tie this clause up Buddhists, Moslems, Hindus, and so forth, with two more clauses which follow, I want asking for that type of oath? Would Parsees to deal with this clause in the light of those ask for such a type of oath? Would these two clauses. Two of the following clauses people ask for such an oath with which to are qualified by a further clause at the end seal their membership of the council or the of the Bill. The two clauses give the wording executive committee? of certain oaths which must be taken on as­ I want to come back to subsection (2) of suming office by members of the council and clause 2. The power of the Minister to ap­ 1131 26th FEBRUARY, 1968 1132

point a representative and say to him, “You contact and consultation between the Govern­ are deemed to represent such and such a pro­ ment and the Indian population. Then one vince, although you are not living in that comes to clause 14 and I wonder quite frankly province . . is one which calls for further why the hon. the Minister did not make this examination. That, I submit, is the meaning his Bill. Clause 14 reads as follows: of clause 2 (2). We tend to lump our Indian population groups together and call them The Minister may make regulations as Asiatics. Yet they have different language to— groups, different religious groups, and so forth. They cannot all be thrown together and given (a) any matter which by this Act is re­ a common name. I want to suggest to the quired or permitted to be prescribed; and Minister that even now he should consider that in the new council the Indian groups (b) all matters, generally, in regard to which be given the opportunity of electing their own he considers it necessary or expedient representatives. The groups, not the provinces, to make regulations in order that the should be given that opportunity, for the objects of this Act may be achieved. simple reason that on an elected basis each particular group will be adequately repre­ This Bill is being held out by the Minister sented. Which people have now been selected? himself as the prelude to something else. We They are all well-to-do people, all people of on this side of the House have, I think, grown a certain high economic standing. If they were accustomed to this kind of legislation. In the not, they could not afford to devote itheir time light of past events we are therefore entitled to the affairs of the council. The Minister to look further than merely at the Bill which quite rightly said the members are giving a we have before us, particularly since the lot of their time to the affairs of the council. Minister himself says that this is so. He says He said he proposes paying them. What is in effect that this is merely a stopgap. He wanted is representation of the Indian people, feels, and the Government feels, that there and from my own experience I know only should be a statutory body. This body virtu­ too well of the differences, the cleavages ally has the powers of the existing advisory between group and group. The Minister will body but it is to be a statutory body. It is find that out himself later on. May I give only the beginning. In the light of past a case in point? promises which have been made in this House On one occasion, some years ago, when I in regard to the future development of the occupied a different position, we decided, be­ Indians we want to ask the hon. the Minister cause of particular representations that had this question: In this Bill, is the passage for been made, to provide a Moslem headmaster the development of the Indian community for a special school. But before the week was upon which he is now embarking, namely the out I had received representations equally establishment of the first statutory body for strong and cogent from no less than eight t'e government of the Indian community separate religious groups of the Indian com­ throughout the Republic, i.e. by a council munity asking that their headmasters and composed of Indians, going to lead to the teachers should be from the religious groups self-government of the Indians in the end? to which they belonged. This is not a case of We do not want the Minister to allow his saying that a representative should come from vision to go halfway and then stop. this or that province; it is a case of saying that a person is elected by a particular group Mr. P. H. TORLAGE: What is your policy of Indians of whom he is indeed the repre­ in this regard? sentative. One should not have a Muslim re­ presenting the Hindus, who may be in the Mr. D. E. MITCHELL; We hope that the majority in a particular area. That should not Minister will tell us precisely how far Govern­ be the position. A Hindu should represent ment policy will go in this regard. The hon. the Hindus, a Moslem the Moslems, a Tamil member for Klip River wants to know what the Tamils, etc. The Minister will then realize our policy in this regard is. This is the kind why there was so much trouble in 1948 in of question to which we are accustomed. This the Indian sub-continent when partition took is not our Bill. We are not the Government. place between Pakistan and Hindustan. We were not responsible for the speech made I want to move on to another clause. I am by the hon. the Minister. going through the provisions of this Bill very briefly. I said the council is purely to advise The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU the hon. the Minister and its powers are set ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: out, for all to read, in paragraphs (a), (b), We want to know what your alternative is if (c) and (d) of clause 13 (1). In those four one day in a thousand years you should come paragraphs we see the general functions of the into power. council and its liaison with the Government, as it is called. It is to advise the Government, Mr. D. E. MITCHELL: Yes, there is an to receive and consider recommendations alternative. The alternative is a different about the Education Advisory Council, to Government, a United Party Government. make recommendations to the Government, That is the answer to all these problems. We and generally to serve as a link and means of will then handle the problem. 1133 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1134

The Minister must not stop halfway. We lic. In debating this Bill one feels compelled hope that the Minister is going to be just as to expose the United Party policy first and courageous as the Indians who joined his Ad­ then to contrast it with the positive policy of visory Council. He said that they were brave tne Government. and courageous men and we hope that he too is going to be brave and courageous. We have *An HON. MEMBER: What policy? been told in this House that this development will go on until there is an Indian Prime *Dr. J. C. OTTO: I shall deal with that in Minister with a Cabinet and an area in South a moment. [Interjections.] Those hon. members Africa demarcated as a Hindustan over which know what is coming and that is why they that Prime Minister, Government and Legis­ are causing such a din on that side of the lative Council will hold sway. Is the Minister House. now embarking upon the first steps to that political goal which he is seeking to attain *Dr. G. F. JACOBS: Mr. Speaker, may I in the end? That is what we want to know. ask the hon. member a question? We want to know whether we are now dealing with the first step towards that end, or what­ *Dr. J. C. OTTO: No. When the hon. mem­ ever end the Government may have in mind. ber makes his own speech later, he may ask But we now challenge the Minister to tell us that question. Years ago the United Party in his reply precisely where he is going with placed Act No. 28 of 1946 on the Statute the legislation which he has now brought be­ Book. What did it comprise? It was a lengthy, fore the House for the first time. voluminous Act which granted franchise to the Indians. I have that Act here in case hon. *Dr. J. C. OTTO: Mr. Speaker, the hon. members feel inclined to argue. In terms of member for South Coast elaborated on a few that Act which the United Party placed on clauses which he might just as well have dealt the Statute Book at that time the Indians with in the Committee Stage. But two of these would have been granted—and now hon. mem­ clauses concern the oath a member of the bers should listen attentively—three white re­ council has to make or the solemn affirmation presentatives in this House and two in the that has to be made in lieu of that oath. I do Senate. not know why the hon. member elaborated so In the same Act it was also provided that on the oath, because the alternative will be the Indians would be granted in the Provincial there. The hon. the Minister also made this Council of Natal two representatives who very clear. The lion, the Minister also said could be either Whites or Indians. On that very explicitly that the present members of the occasion the Indians were dissatisfied with Indian Council wanted it that way. I want to what they had been offered, for reasons I am inform the hon. member that the same clauses not going to mention here. But they were dis­ are also contained in the legislation in respect satisfied and they did not accept it. Fortun­ of the Coloured Council. In the present ately the National Party came '0 power in Coloured Council there are also Moslems to 1948; consequently that legislation of the then whom this choice is given. It functions quite United Party Government was never imple­ satisfactorily. mented. but where does the Opposition stand to-day in regard to promises contained in Act *Mr. W. V. RAW: What will the majority No. 28 of 1946. for instance? According to in the Indian Council be? the latest information we have cn this side, the United Party does at least have a specific *Dr. J. C. OTTO: It does not matter whether pattern in respect of Indian representation. Ac­ it is one or ten. The principle is there and cording to what we can deduce from this in­ they also accept it in that way. In his second- formation, the United Party wants to grant the reading speech the hon. the Minister furnished Indians two representatives in this House and a brief and clear explanation in regard to the one in the Senate. They must all be Whites. whole matter. The attitude adopted by the Please note. Sir. that after 22 years the United hon. member for South Coast is that we Partv is willing to grant the Indians one re­ should force the Indians to accept certain presentative fewer in the House of Assembly. things faster than they themselves want to ac­ Tn other words, they want to grant the Indians cept them. Whereas at the moment the Indians 33', per cent less representation than was laid are asking that it should be a nominated statu­ down bv statute 22 years ago. In the_ Senate tory body, this hon. member wants to know the Indians will have one reDresentative, i.e. why it cannot be an elected statutory body. exactly 50 per cent less representation than In other words, the hon. member wants us to was granted them by statute 22 years ago. As move at a faster pace than the one at which far as the Indians are concerned this is a the Indian leaders themselves want to move. retrogressive policy. We do not know whether The Government will move at the pace it it is under pressure. At any rate, in that regard deems fit and not at the pace the Opposition we have breach of faith. If one talks about is dictating to it. breach of faith, then this is breach of faith I regard this Bill as a further milestone, as towards the Indians in Natal. In 1946 it was the hon. the Minister rightly put it. on the laid down by statute that the Indians in Natal road of separate development. It is also a fur­ would be granted two representatives in the ther milestone on the road of good relations Provincial Council. They could be either among the population groups in the Repub­ Indians or Whites. Twenty-two years later no 1135 26th FEBRUARY, 1968 1136 promise is being made in respect of the of separate, development, and in increasing greatest concentration of Indians in South numbers they began to hold the view that in Africa, namely those in Natal. At a future the future the various population groups in congress of the United Party they will per­ South Africa would have to live side by side haps make a promise to the Indians in Natal and co-operate with one another, but that each in respect of representation in the Provincial of them would nevertheless be able to retain Council. its character, without integrating with one Mr. Speaker, now I just want to bring the another. Despite initial scepticism, prejudice following to your notice: At that time the and suspicion towards the Indian Council, all Indians did not want to accept the political Indians who were leaders in their communi­ or constitutional alms of the United Party. ties began to lend their co-operation and sup­ Now the alms they are offering are even port. The establishment of the Indian Council smaller. I wonder whether the Indians are go­ brought about a major change in attitude. ing to accept that. I want to ask the Opposi­ On the one hand the Government, through tion this question in respect of their new the Department of Indian Affairs, persevered policy: Have they consulted any Indian leaders with its goodwill, its willingness to oblige, its or any Indians to hear whether they are satis­ honest and sincere intentions and with its posi­ fied? Please remember, 22 years ago the tive actions. On the other hand the Indian Indians were not satisfied. Have they consulted Council as well, with its positive attitude and any leaders this time to hear whether they the sound judgment on the part of its mem­ will be satisfied with these reduced alms? Per­ bers, created an atmosphere for effecting sound haps one of the members of the Opposition co-operation. Since then the Indian Council will be able to give us a reply to this. has developed into an integral part of the ad­ When the National Party took over in 1948 ministrative machinery of the Department of there were many matters that were in a state Indian Affairs. This Indian Council has be­ of chaos. This also applied to Indian affairs come a particularly fruitful and effective as a result of the legislation of 1946, which means of establishing contact. I want to was an utter failure. emphasize this; it has become an effective It is generally known, and the lion, the means of establishing contact between the Minister also referred to this matter, that one Indian community and the Government, and of the most difficult break-throughs of the it has decidedly started to render a very praise­ present Government policy of separate de­ worthy service. This Indian Council realized velopment was in fact to obtain the co-opera­ fully, and they still do, that the Government tion of the Indian community. With the estab­ policy and its implementation implied very lishment of a Department of Indian Affairs significant benefits for the Indians in the Re­ in 1961, the Government effected the first public. That is why they gave it their whole- major change. Initially the Indians regarded hearted support. this development with a great deal of sus­ On a certain occasion last year the hon. the picion. It was difficult to obtain the co-opera­ Prime Minister also referred appreciatively to tion of the Indian population group, also as the great work that was being done by this regards the policy of separate development. Indian Council— The goodwill on the part of the Government met with suspicion, opposition and obstruction From the impression gained at this, our on the part of the Indians, all of which were first meeting, and having been apprised of artificial in many cases and were stimulated the council’s work and its approach to the and encouraged by instigators and agitators, problem confronting us, I feel that the coun­ of whom the majority were the rich Indians cil is making its contribution to solving our who at that time were members of the Natal problems and working out our salvation in and Transvaal Indian Congress. After the the best and true interests of all concerned, establishment of the Ministry of Indian Affairs and I want to add that in time to come it was, therefore, particularly difficult to induce people will come to South Africa to see how leaders of the Indian community to co-operate. people of different racial groups can live But in due course the establishment did find together. favour with the Indian community as such. Despite insults the law-abiding and the in­ In the course of time the Indian Council has digent Indians as well as a few leaders began become so popular that at the moment the to co-operate. So it happened that in 1963 Indian leaders are very keen to serve on the the previous Minister of Indian Affairs ad­ new council, as we also heard in the speech dressed a representative Indian conference in made by the hon. the Minister. The opposi­ the Indian township. Laudium, outside Pre­ tion to and suspicion towards that council has toria, and out of this conference the Indian virtually disappeared altogether, because to­ Council was born. Then the Indians began day those people regard that council as their to realize in increasing numbers that it was mouthpiece. wise and essential for them to abandon their I want to conclude with this thought. This indifference and to avail themselves fully of legislation emphasizes the cardinal difference the opportunities the Government’s policy of between the policy of the United Party and parallel development offered them and their that of the Government. In this Bill, too, the communities. Just as the Whites, the Coloureds Government rejects as a possible solution to and the Bantu, the Indians accepted the merits our problems in the Republic, a state of af­ 1137 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1138 fairs where the Indians share political rights An HON. MEMBER: No, he belonged to with the Whites—in other words, the United another party then. Party policy which will eventually amount to the fact that the Indians will in due course Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Sir, the hon. mem­ obtain political rights and representation in ber for Koedoespoort must realize that he has this House of Assembly. The Indian Council fallen into exactly the same error as the hon. agreed to this legislation unanimously. That is the Minister. The Indian leaders asked for a why we believe that this legislation is to the nominated council. As the hon. member for advantage of the Indian community, no mat­ South Coast has said, who are the Indian ter what the United Party may suggest. leaders? Are they the persons appointed by the Government from amongst the wealthy, Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: The hon. member well-to-do leading businessmen of the Indian for Koedoespoort has delivered himself of community, or are the Indian leaders the per­ what was obviously a very well prepared sons who represent the Indians and whom the speech, which he had taken some trouble to Indians want as their leaders? How on earth prepare beforehand but, Sir, I do not know do you ever tell who their leaders are and who why he became so excited, because it should represents them unless you have some form of have been obvious to him, if he had listened participation by the Indians themselves in the to the hon. member for South Coast, that we choice of the persons who acts as their repre­ are going to support this Bill at this stage. I sentative? Who are these leaders? They are do not know why he got so excited. [Interjec­ nominated. They represent the people who tions.] Well, it would have been interesting to nominate them, as every representative does; have heard what adaptation the hon. member he represents the people who give him the would have made if he had not misunderstood powers and the “say so”. The people who give the hon. member for South Coast. these members the powers and the “say so” are this Government, and if they represent The MINISTER OF FORESTRY: Even in anyone they represent this Government be­ this House you do not know which way you cause the Government have chosen them for are going. a reason. The Minister is not just going to choose anybody to serve on this council. He is Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: You have going to choose someone who has a certain been lost for a long time, Frank. approach or a certain attitude. [Interjections.] I will not go so far as to say that, but you will The MINISTER OF FORESTRY: You are certainly choose someone for a reason, and the lost one; you are getting lower and lower. the reason is obviously that this is a political appointment the result of which will be good Mr. SPEAKER: Order! for the Government. Sir, it is no good talking about the United Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Sir, the hon. the Party’s policy. One of our principles is that Minister can back the winning side as often as there must be consultation at all levels. Tell he likes, but there are some of us who stand me, Sir, how do you consult with the Indian for something else. people, if you pretend that this is one of the Sir, the hon. member for Koedoespoort functions of the council, unless you get to the ought not to go back into the past. He spent a Indian people and not just those persons long time dealing with the United Party and whom you select as the persons who you what had been said in 1946 and so on. [Inter­ think should express the views that you want jections.] Do hon. members opposite who are to hear. That is what it amounts to and that making all this noise realize what their election is what the hon. member for South Coast has manifesto was in 1948? The hon. member said and that is something to which we have over there will confirm that they said that they had no answer whatsoever as yet, except an stood by that manifesto. What was their mani­ anticipatory argument from the hon. the festo, what was their policy, in relation to the Minister. What has the hon. the Minister Indians? It was to repatriate them or, as it was said? The Minister says that we must have a put colloquially, “Die Koelies in die see.” nominated council only; we must have a statutory body now because we cannot set up The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU a proper representative Council, because we ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: cannot set up voters’ rolls, because we have “Die Koelies uit die land jaag.” not got the group areas settled yet, because we have not got our municipal bodies settled Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: The hon. the De­ yet and so on and so on, and therefore be­ puty Minister of Bantu Administration is cause this is like pie in the sky—it might never right. happen—we are now going to do something else; we are going to take a great step forward The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU and we are going to create a statutory body. ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATTION: Is that what you want to-day? Mr. G. P. C. BEZUIDENHOUT: You must crawl before you walk. Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Sir, I take the hon. the Deputy Minister’s word for it; he prob­ Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Yes, of course, I ably wrote it. appreciate that, but what is this body that is 1139 26th FEBRUARY, 1968 1140 being set up by this Bill? We agree that we with legislative and executive powers. That was must have it, but this is no different from the in 1964. council that has been in existence since 1964. It is on a statutory basis, as the hon. the An HON. MEMBER: With legislative Minister has explained, but the one big change power? will be that it will have its own chairman. It will not have the Secretary for Indian Affairs Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: With legislative and who is the chairman of the existing council. executive powers. I am quoting from a report That is the one change, but otherwise, as the in the Cape Argus of 3rd February, 1964. hon. member for South Coast has said, they will have exactly the same powers as they had *An HON. MEMBER: But the Minister has before. If there is no difference at all, why is explained that. this suddenly announced by the hon. the Minister as a great step forward? What is this Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Yes, but that was step fowrard? It has become a statutory body. in February, 1964. Then he went on to say How do you get a statutory body? You pass that it would develop along similar lines to a statute; you pass a Bill. I want to ask the the Coloured Council, and in addressing the hon. the Minister why this could not be done members of the council who had come down before, because all he has really said to-day is to Cape Town he said that the council would this: “Look, we have made all sorts of promises be developed into a fully representative, de­ in the past”—he has not actually said that but mocratically elected and statutory body with they have—“we have made promises about an powers to partake in and exercise control over elected Indian Council ever since the inception the administration of such affairs of the Indian of the present advisory council, but now in community as may be entrusted to it by Par­ 1968 we are not in a position to implement it liament. In other words, on the lines of the and we do not know when we are going to Coloured Council. implement it, so what we are going to do is to create the same body as the one we have to­ An HON. MEMBER: Did he give a date? day but we are going to give it a statutory form and then we are going to tell everyone Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Of course, he did that the Indian Council wants it and approves not. That is the trouble; one can never get a of it.” Minister of the Nationalist Government to Sir, where is the advance? Let us consider give a date for anything. some of the promises which have been made in the past. I want to ask the hon. the Minister An HON. MEMBER: What about the date what the position is with regard to one matter given by the Deputy Minister of Bantu Ad­ which came to my notice just this weekend, ministration and Education. and that is that the Indian Council, having asked for military training for Indians on the Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Well, he is only a same basis as the Coloureds, were then told Deputy Minister. No doubt if the event occurs that they would get it. They passed a resolu­ on the date anticipated by him he will be tion at their recent meeting in Cape Town raised to ministerial status. Sir, this was the saying that they were very pleased about this promise. Now, four years later, this hon. and that they welcomed it. This is what the Minister comes here and says, “You can have Indian Council is told and this is what it has a statutory body.” In other words, all he is said, but in Die Beeld of yesterday there ap­ doing now, after four years, is to say, “This peared a report of an interview with the hon. council of yours will now become a statutory the Minister of Defence, who says that the council and the members will now be nomi­ Indians are not going to be given this sort of nated by virtue of an Act of Parliament.” Sir, military training. What goes on in this Indian what is the advance? It is no good the hon. Council? Who is bluffing whom? What sort of member for Brakpan saying that you must consultation is there; what sort of liaison is crawl before you can walk. How fast can you there and what in fact is the position in this crawl; what sort of pace does one set? What regard? Because if that report had not ap­ is the difference in the end? In terms of clause peared I have no doubt that the Indian Coun­ 13 this council has to advise the Government cil would have gone away with the impres­ at its request. They receive and consider re­ sion that in fact they were going to be given commendations and resolutions from the Edu­ military training. The Indian Council was told cational Advisory Council; they make recom­ that they were going to get it and a statement mendations at the Government’s request. was issued that in fact they had been told this They make recommendations to the Govern­ by the Secretary and that the council was very ment in regard to all matters affecting the eco­ delighted. nomic development of the Indians—this ob­ Sir, in February, 1964 the hon. the Minis­ viously was so before—and generally they are ter’s predecessor as Minister of Indian Affairs to serve as a link and as a means of contact said, when the council was appointed and the and consultation between the Government and the Indian population. Sir, we wish this names were announced, that the council would body luck, but we do not believe that it can develop into a permanent body which he was properly fulfil its function unless at least some prepared to allow to be 100 per cent elected, of the members are elected. 1141 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1142

On 23rd March., 1964, the then Minister said giving it to them, and withholding from them to the council that for results he wanted them many other things also. If your policy is to to be reasonable, responsible and realistic. withhold from them any sort of participation Well, I have no doubt that they have lived up outside of their own community, any sort of to the hon. the Minister’s every expectation. consultative link anywhere else except through One appreciates that the hon. the Minister has official Government sources, then you should troubles, and one appreciates that his prede­ know what you are going to give them and cessor had troubles, because after he made when you are going to give it to them. That that speech in September of that year there is as far as we have got. This hon. Minister was a tremendous uproar at the Nationalist said then that authority could be assigned to Party Transvaal Congress. The Government such a body for administering, on local and was criticized for allowing Indians to trade in even national level, a large share of the affairs white areas and there was a call for a general of the Indian residents of the Republic. What boycott of Indian stores in Pretoria. But let us has happened? This step was not even taken go to the next step; that was in 1964. In 1965, then. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can tell us a year later, the hon. the Minister of Indian Why. He said that he had no doubt that the Affairs, the Minister’s predecessor, told the Council was functioning efficiently and in the Indian Council again that it would be devel­ real interest of the Indian community. This oped into a fully elected council with powers really is not good enough. In February of to legislate on their own affairs and to control 1967, to come to the next year when the such matters as education and health services, Council met again in Cape Town, it was de­ I am beginning to wonder whether he had not cided to submit to the Government a report read some of the United Party’s pamphlets. and recommendations drawn up by a Council Then he went on to say that at the next meet­ Committee which was instructed to investigate ing of the council he would suggest certain the conversion of the present Advisory Coun­ steps to make it an elected council with powers cil into an elected statutory body. That was to legislate. That is what he said in 1965 at the last year, Sir. What has happened? This was council’s next meeting. I do not know when its a statement issued by the Chairman of the next meeting was due but one can assume that Council, Mr. Van der Merwe, who was the at least the next meeting would have been in Secretary for Indian Affairs. He said that the 1966. Can the hon. the Minister tell us when report and the recommendations were adopted he replies what happened; can be tell us whe­ by the Council after a full discussion. What ther in fact his predecessor did suggest certain has happened to that? Did anything happen? steps to make this an elected council with Is anything going to happen to it? On 14th powers to legislate, because that is what he is February last year the hon. the Prime Minis­ reported as having said, that he would do this ter addressed the Council, and he was thanked at the next meeting. Well, Sir, we are now in by one of the members for the speech he had the year 1968. What we would like to know is made and he, speaking on behalf of the Coun­ what happened, because this is quite a different cil, expressed confidence in the Government story from the story the hon. the Minister told as the guardian of Indian interests, and said us to-day. the Council was 100 per cent with the Prime One appreciates that this Minister was not Minister in all respects as far as separate de­ the Minister at that time. This hon. Minister velopment was concerned. Sir, you have an was in Labour. It is perhaps a pity that the election on whether the Indian people are 100 former hon. Minister of Indian Affairs was per cent with the Government’s policy of not also in Labour, because he has produced separate development (whatever that might nothing at all. At least we hope that this mean) as far as they are concerned. Ask them Minister will produce the explanation as to whether the application of the Group Areas what happened to the Minister’s assurances to Act to the Indian population is part of separ­ this House in 1965, and why it was that he ate development and whether they would sup­ could not implement it, and if he could not, port it. If you have an election on that, you why it was that he did not know then that he might find a few people whom you can ap­ could not implement it. Then we have the point on your Council, but you will not find change-over in 1966 and got the new Minister that the majority of the people agree. of Indian Affairs. I am sorry, Sir, to have this tedious repetition. I know it is against the rules The DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! Is the of the House to indulge in tedious repetition, hon. member not somewhat out of step now? but you must excuse me, Sir, because I am I think he is going far beyond the scope of merely quoting what the Ministers have said this Bill. each year since 1964. In September, 1966, this Minister said to the Oouncil that he Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: I am out of step pledged his support to the conversion of the with the Minister, yes. nominated Indian Council into an elected or partly elected statutory body when the time The DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. mem­ comes. When is that time going to come? ber is out of step with the Bill. I think the hon. There are many people who can answer that member must come back to the Bill. question on behalf of the Government, in­ cluding this Minister. You cannot go on Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: The facts I have promising these people something and not just mentioned just indicate the sort of trouble 1143 26th FEBRUARY, 1968 1144

you can get into, the sort of illusion that can possible for the Indians to be repatriated, and cloud your vision if you do not have a coun­ if they want to return to-day, they oan still be cil which is really representative. It is necessary repatriated. [Interjection.] to start somewhere, and although it is four years late we are going to support this *The DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! I want measure, but we do hope that it will not take to point out to the hon. member that we are another four years before the next real step is not dealing with a policy motion, but with a taken in regard to giving the Indian people a Bill. He must return to the Bill. body and a framework within which they can conduct their own affairs on matters which *Mr. P. H. TORLAGE: In all deference, I concern them, and indulge in those matters of should like to come to the Bill, but I had to government which are important to every race react to points made by hon. members on the group if it is to participate in the government opposite side. and the future of this country which we be­ The vast majority of Indians in South lieve is the country in which all the different Africa are to-day accepting the policy of population groups will live. separate development, and the basis of this Bill is in fact the policy of separate develop­ *Mr. P. H. TORLAGE: I listened with ment. The Indians in South Africa are accept­ astonishment to the hon. members on the ing the good and honest intentions of this opposite side and I was amazed at having to Government. The Indians of South Africa are, hear them speak such words, a party which as to a greater extent, accepting the policy of recently as October of last year held a con­ autogenous development, the segregation, the gress and also at that congress took certain parallel policy, the policy of apartheid—call it policy steps in regard to Indian representation what you will—of this Government, just as in the Republic of South Africa, but which hon. members on the opposite side are also came here to-day and accepted the basis of accepting it this afternoon. listen to what one this Government’s policy of separate develop­ ment for all groups. of their spokesmen has to say— South Africa has been honest and sin­ *Brig. H. J. BRONKHORST: Where did cere and unafraid of stating its policy. you hear that? Apartheid is a natural thing all over the *Mr. P. H. TORLAGE: The hon. member world, yet so few people admit this. for Durban (North) stated unequivocally that they accepted the Bill before the House; and Then this spokesman, an Indian, goes further he went further and stated that the hon. mem­ and states— ber for Koedoespoort had not understood the hon. member for South Coast correctly, be­ Which Moslem father here would like to cause he had supported the Bill throughout. see his daughter married to a Hindu, a Now I want to ask whether the United Party is Tamil or any member of any other race? really giving up? Have they given up to such We are also supporters of the principle of an extent that they do not even have the segregation. courage to state their own policy to the coun­ Now my standpoint is this. The Indians are, try? Are they going to state here this after­ tOÊ an increasing extent, accepting the policy of noon that the National Party is stealing their this Government. They are, to an increasing policy, the policy of Act No. 28 of 1946? Is extent, accepting the honest intentions of the that the policy of Mr. Koos Strauss and the Government, and in this way they will also United Party? Is that the policy of the accept this Bill. Similarly they have already United Party in Bloemfontein, in October, intimated that they accept it. They will there­ 1967? What must I go and read to learn fore welcome the fact that on a high level, on about the policy of the United Party in respect a representative level, there can be contact of the Indians in South Africa? That is why I between the Government and the Indians of say that for the hon. member for Durban South Africa which will give rise to good re­ (North) to have come here this afternoon and lationships between them. The channels by discussed one thing only, i.e. that these people means of which consultation and deliberation on the Indian Council are being nominated can take place are being created, and such and not elected, was to indulge in carping consultation and deliberation will take place criticism. And the hon. member for South on a high level of co-operation. Up to four or Coast could only speak for 18 minutes because five years ago these good relations did not he was in agreement. I say that if this Opposi­ exist in South Africa, or existed to a lesser tion now accepts that this policy of the degree than at present. The great change National Party is the right one, then what they Which has taken place must be ascribed to the must also do this afternoon is say so. The hon establishment of the South African Indian member for Durban (North) asked the speci­ Council. Note carefully that this Indian Coun­ fic question: Does the National Party still cil was not elected by their own people, but adhere to its policy of 1948 which was pub­ was also nominated by the Minister. Now I lished in pamphlet form, i.e. that the Indians want to ask the hon. member for Durban must be repatriated? My reply is that it has (North): Why stir up such a fuss if, at this never been withdrawn; it has always been stage as well, these people are also going to 1146 1145 ASSEMBLY DEBATES be nominated by the Minister? The first South coming forward with that argument. We have African Indian Council produced good results. heard of “one man, one vote”. But the Indian Why should this one not produce good results himself does not want that. In this regard I as well? Since the establishment of this Indian want to quote an extract from the speech of a Council four years ago, relations in South certain Indian— Africa have been greatly improved. But this Indian Council has a particular I wish to return to what freedom means. function, and that is to provide this direct The granting of “one man, one vote” is channel of contact with the Government. Now strongly opposed by the majority of Indians the Government is able to hear the opinions because we know what it will mean. I will of the Indians from the mouths of the Indians not elaborate but we have a constant themselves. In this way the Government is memory of what happened to our people now becoming acquainted with the aspirations during the riots in Durban in 1948. Free­ of the Indians and it knows precisely what the dom to me is the right to live in the land needs of these people are. But, secondly, the of your birth, where everything is done to Government has here a body with which it can eliminate lawlessness and starvation, and consult directly. In this way it will become where each man lives and earns. I am proud acquainted with the requirements of the to say that I am a free man in our Republic. Indians. In other words, it works both ways, from the Government to the Indians, and ♦Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER: Who said from the Indians to the Government. This that? has been the development process up to now. ♦Mr. P. H. TORLAGE: Even if I were to Now I want the hon. member for Durban furnish the hon. member with his name, he (North) to listen very carefully. I maintain would not recognize him. But I do not have that this has been the development process up the consent of this person to reveal his name to now, and that it has had very good results here. However, I have his speech here in front which have been achieved by steps taken by the Government. We have advanced step by of me. step. You will recall that in the beginning the The United Party may as well accept that Indians did not easily accept the Department the Government will move forward step by of Indian Affairs. They did not easily accept step, and accept that we will move forward the idea of the South African Indian Council, with bills such as this one to further the in­ but step by step they have been led to accept terests of the entire country. I want to state these things, and to realize to-day that these this very clearly for the sake of the hon. are the correct things. In other words, we members for Durban (North) and South have progressed, and relations have been im­ Coast: They must not come and ask me what proved. Mutual trust has been established and the end of the road for the Indians in South we have made progress with a purely advisory Africa will be. [Interjections.] The hon. mem­ body, a body whose members were nominated ber for Durban (North) is trying to put it to by the hon. the Minister. At that time it was me again. Now I want to state very clearly argued that that body did not represent the that for the sake of the well-being and future Indians because it was a nominated body, but of a population group, we cannot try to pre­ in spite of that it has succeeded, and now we cipitate the ripening process. We must adapt are going a step further with the development to circumstances. May I explain this. What process. would the hon. member for Durban (Point) It is the intention of this Bill to convert this look like to-day in the long suite of clothes Counoil into a statutory body. The Indians he had when he was 16 years old? And_ what to-day form one of the smallest population would he look like in 20 years’ time in the groups in South Africa. But although small, it suit he has on to-day? As I have said, we is the duty of this Government to see to their cannot be allowed to precipitate the develop­ needs. The Government must also see to it ment of a population group. What we must that they are 'brought to full maturity. But do. is to move forward step by step and cope there are other population groups in South with things as circumstances cause them to Africa as well. We in the National Party ac­ crop up. cept the differences between these various groups, the difference in approach which this ♦The DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! When requires, and the difference in regard to the does the hon. member intend saying some­ arrangements which have to be made for each thing about the Bill? group” We realize that such differences exist, and we accept them. We also accept the peed, ♦Mr. P. H. TORLAGE: With this Bill it and we are adjusting our policy accordingly, is our intention to protect the rights of this to allow each population group to retain its population group, the smallest population own identity. group in the country so that they too can It can be argued that instead of this step grow to full maturity. Every population group the Indians should be given the franchise. This in the country must be afforded this oppor­ can, however, result in far-reaching complica­ tunity, and must not be frustrated. That is why tions and that is why I am pleased that hon. the Government will continue along this road members on the opposite side are no longer and do things for these people at the right 1147 26th FEBRUARY, 1968 1148

time. We must not try and anticipate matters, I repeat, Mr. Speaker— and in particular we must not try and pre­ cipitate the ripening process. Hulle kan nooit eie aan ons land word nie en hulle moet dus as ’n immigrantege- Mr. W. V. RAW: Mr. Speaker, despite the meenskap behandel word. speeches of the hon. members for Klip River and Koedoespoort I should like to add my But we have just heard from the hon. member support to this Bill now before us. It is in­ for Klip River that they are a part of our teresting to see the violent reaction of Govern­ population, that they must grow, that they ment members when we support a measure. I must be cared for and nurtured, they must be do not know what they will do when this side nursed by this Government and brought to opposes one. We on this side want to support full enjoyment of life as a permanent part of this Bill and I want to give my reasons there­ South Africa. But that is not what Nationalist for. We want to support this measure because Party policy said. It is intact what that hon. the Government is taking a step in the direc­ member now says and it is what this Bill im­ tion which we in the United Party have ad­ plies. The very title of the Bill reads, ‘'South vocated for the last 14 years, [Interjeotions.] African Indian Coundl Bill”. I repeat, “South Part of the fundamental concept of our race African . . .” Yet according to original Na­ federation policy has always been the con­ tionalist Party policy, the policy which the cept of an Indian council which would deal hon. member for Koedoespoort said they had with affairs peculiar to the Indian racial group. never deviated from, the policy which the hon It has always been our policy and it was con­ member for Klip River said they had followed firmed again at Bloemfontein. When the bon. “konsekwensieel, stap vir stap”, the policy member for Koedoespoort challenges us to which that hon. member said was the basis of say how we can support this measure, and this measure, the Indians cannot be regarded the hon. member for Klip River asks us, as South Africans. I have here in my hand an “How can you support this fundamental step excerpt from an official Nationalist Party pub­ m separate development, after your Bloem­ lication, namely Die Kruithoring . . . [Inter­ fontein congress?”, then I ask them to read jections.] This was the platform on which the their politics and study it. Because at that Nationalists fought the 1948 election. congress the United Party reaffirmed its belief in a council for the Indian people, a council An HON. MEMBER: Who was the editor? which would deal with, control and direct In­ dian affairs. We reaffirmed our belief in an Mr. W. V. RAW: It was because the editor elected council which would deal with those was forced to write this sort of unmitigated . .. affairs peculiar to the Indian community. We [Interjections.] . . . this un-South African ap­ have not changed our policy one iota. All our proach to politics, that he resigned. He re­ Bloemfontein congress added to it was the de­ signed because he could no longer allow his tails of the link between that Indian council conscience to write the sort of rubbish which and the Central Government, this Parliament he was expected to put out. of South Africa. It added a select committee from this House to meet with a select com- I want to go on. The hon. member for Klip mittee from the elected Indian council, and it River said the policy of the Nationalist Party specified that the representation within' Parlia­ was still to-day repatriation. He said it was still ment would be through two white members the ^ policy of the Nationalist Party and the elected by the Indian people and one white Indian people could be repatriated if they senator also elected by the Indian people. The ]vaT?t®d„ t0 leave. But this is what they said concept of an Indian council remains, as it in 1 UA v_ has always been, part of the fundamental ap­ proach of the United Party to the question of Die party aanvaar as grondslag van sy race relations. Yet those hon. members on the opposite side accuse us on this side of —the party regards as the very foundation of changing our policy, after what their party has its policy— done in the field of Indian affairs. I want to relate this Bill now to Government policy to . . . die repatriasie van soveel Indiërs as wat the Nationalist Party’s policy. I want to quote moontlik is, en stel voor ’n deeglike onder- from the _ official policy of the Nationalist soek na die uitvoerbaarheid van so ’n beleid Party. This is a typescript but we have the op groot skaal, in samewerking met Indie original on file. The first sentence of official en/of ander lande. Nationalist Party policy reads as follows— Here is the kernel of the piece— Die party huldig die beskouing dat die Met die oog op die erns van die vraig.huk Indiërs ’n vreemde en uitheemse element is moet Suid-Afrika gewillig wees, indien no­ wat nie assimileerbaar is nie. Hulle kan dig, om groot finansiële opofferings vir die nooit eie aan ons land word nie en hulle bereikmg van hierdie doel te maak. moet dus as ’n immigrantegemeenskap be- handel word. What financial sacrifices does this Bill entail? I his Bill takes a step forward towards the 1149

tha t'u , Pt tI S procla,Imed and accepted view mat the Indian people are a permanent part of South Africa, tnat they are a permanent population group who must be part of our concept of a nation, a government, and a state. I" ° ‘hKer words, 1" 1961 their official policy This Bill is a step forward, albeit a hesitant was abandoned, and we were now to have a step without the teeth of an elected council peo d leS* n ; ar«° tha,£ ™ regard *° the Coloured at 'east a step in the direction towards people. Die Burger's comment was: If™ a J,take *n the administration of South Africa. The hon. the Minister and the Hiermee kom daar ’n element van realisme Nationalist Party accept that this Bill is a Bill in die Nasionale Partydenke oor die Indiers. towards giving legislative power to the Indian people. I assume I am right when I say this Yes, Mr. Speaker, an element of realism as Hilt is a step towards giving legislative power Die Burger itself accepted in 1961, the first to the Indian people. element of realism in Nationalist Party think- ng! If is the acceptance of the permanence of the Indian people. The next little gram of ThaUs rigidSTER ° F 1NDIAN AFFAIRS: ofaIi;“ iPWHaSpthf acc®ptance of anothegr aspect tiondon of fh.the need arly forrPOl,Cy’ a council. namely the recogni­ “tt. Y- RAW: ,The Minister nods and says That is nght. This is a step towards The MINISTER OF SPORT: [Inaudible.] U4hMt the h,!eK,P?Werr Nationalist B™ Party in itssaid— ,ndian Po'icy of Mr. W. V. RAW: The hon. the Minister of Geen verteenwoordiging' sal aan Indiers Sport can make all the funny noises he likes gegee word in die wetgewende liggame van I cannot quite understand him. I do not know die land me. assume"that '1 speak!ng Urdu °r Hindustani; 1 assume that he needs an interpreter. But what Is this Bill not creating a “wetgewende lig- gaam . Is it not creating a legislative body? sides?de' of’ of the Tl* House tha‘ and h",n' supported Minister was our on poliev this r !S It a 1xeT^ latlv? body for the Indian people. which accepted the Indian people as a oer- But the Nationalist Party said, oh no, they Dennll1 p,°pulatlon group. He was one of "the must have no say in the legislative machinery people who supported our concept of the In­ of South Africa They did not say in the Par- dian people running their own" affairs No °f SxrUth Afnca, they did not say in ™ “de.r hon. Minister, who is so anxious lu m ii“ e' No’ they said the Indian people this Bm whicvh°,ce eard' is anxious t0 support South Africa"0 ^ ‘n the Iegislative bodies of In clause 2 of the Bill there is Drovision for the election of people from the different pro- arJsupportingFER ° F SPORT: Which you whheSfV Ttlffy- wll!, come together and deal c V Ar affa™s, of Indlan People throughout Mr. W. V. RAW: Yes. He is anxious to join South Africa. They will travel to a place to be named. It is laid down in the Bill that the say.sav,ni 1 SaPP° am voting " tng 3 with Bll’ Which my conscience enables him I am to Minister shal determine where that place will h ^ n T 1?8 a measure which follows a road I affile eyf i£a- com

before I have a body with which such con­ the Opposition. I am also indebted to the hon. sultations can be held, as in the case of members for Klip River and Koedoespoort the Coloureds, I can say no more about for their contributions to this debate. They their future. In other words, the first step have traced the development and the poli­ in the case of the Indians must be that a tical background in, I think, a most effective body like the Council for Coloured Affairs way. I hope it will assist hon. members op­ must be established as an advisory body posite to see what the Bill really means and and then we will be able to consult with what the policy of this side of the House them just as with the Coloureds in regard really is. to their future in terms of the policy of having separate institutions. I say as clearly Motion put and agreed to. as in respect of the other groups that the course of development will be according to Bill read a Second Time. the policy of separation being applied in respect of the Coloureds.” WINE, OTHER FERMENTED BEVERAGES AND SPIRITS AMENDMENT BILL In other words, the same policy will be ap­ plied in respect of the Indians. That is why (Second Reading) we have taken these steps from time to time. Let me quote just shortly from a speech made ♦The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I by my predecessor on this subject on the 21st move— November, 1963, in Durban— That the Bill be now read a Second Time. “The ultimate objective is to guide the Indian population of the Republic to social, When we came to this hon. House in 1966 economic and political development in order with certain amendments to the Wine, Spirits that they may be enabled to accept, in and Vinegar Act, Act No. 25 of 1957, one conformity with separate development, a of the main objects of that amending Act steadily increasing say and eventually self- was to afford recognition to alcoholic bever­ government in those matters peculiar to ages manufactured from kinds of fruit other them as, for instance, education, social ser­ than the grape. This was to enable manufac­ vices, local government, etc.” turers of these beverages, who already had That is the policy that is being carried out vested interests to some extent, to enjoy and, as I have tried to emphasize, this is just statutory recognition of their products, and also an intermediate step. Then, Sir, let me con­ to afford the public the protection of having clude by quoting a report of an interview the quality of the products properly con­ with a well-known Indian in Pretoria, who is trolled. the chairman of the executive of the existing After the amending Act had been passed Indian Council. This is what he said a few by Parliament and my Department was en­ days ago— gaged in drawing up the regulations envisaged in terms of the amending Act, it came to “Indians are not ready to choose repre­ light that certain fermented fruit beverages sentatives on the South African Council , a were being manufactured in such a way (for leading member of the council said this example, by causing cane sugar to ferment week He said that he was not disappointed with greatly diluted fruit juice and certain by the Bill now before Parliament, which additives) that such products could be mar­ would change the council into a nominated keted much more cheaply than other fermen­ statutory body. He was a member of the ted fruit beverages, and that, as far as the ad hoc committee that had drafted the technical side was concerned, they were being council’s recommendations to the Minister, manufactured on an unfair basis as compared who had said that the proposed legislation with other fermented beverages and wine. The was only a temporary measure. authorization of such a beverage could natural­ ly lead to serious malpractices, and could be Then he goes on to say— a source of great danger to both the wine­ making industry and -the manufacturers of There are practical difficulties to be over­ other fermented beverages of the fruit indus- come before elected representation can be try. implemented. The council will have to After thorough consideration and detailed evolve step by step towards a greater say discussions with various interested parties, it in Indian affairs. It could not have expected was decided that only those persons who were more at this stage. manufacturers on the date of commencement Sir, that is all I am endeavouring to do. I am of this Bill would be allowed to continue simply endeavouring to enshrine in legislation their activities under special authority and something which this Indian Council has been upon conditions issued by the Minister, but striving for since their appointment This Bill, with regard being had to the assurance given as drafted, is really the fmits of their work during the second-reading speech on the We have acted upon their suggestions, and amending Bill of 1966 that the manufacturers I am glad that this Bill has the support of of the aforementioned type of alcoholic fruit 1157 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1158

beverage who already had established interests WATERVAL RIVER (LYDENBURG) BILL would not be prohibited from continuing their production. I want to emphasize once again (Second Reading) that these persons, some of whom have built up vested interests over many years, will not ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER be deprived of their livelihood, but I merely AFFAIRS: I move— want to prevent a door being left open to malpractices which it may only be possible That the Bill be now read a Second Time. to curb with great difficulty at a later stage. While the Act is to be amended, we have The water in the Waterval River was appor­ deemed it fit, after repeated representations tioned by an order of the Water Court on were made by certain sectors of the wine­ 7th October, 1918. Mr. Speaker, this is the making industry, also to make provision for river flowing to Burgersfort in the district of the manufacture of wines of a special type Lydenburg.^ The said order of the Water and quality which fall into the same category Court provided, inter alia, for the following— as the famous “auslese” type of wine produced by certain overseas wine-producing countries. (i) Apportionment of the water between The manufacturing process of this type of the upper and lower farms on such a wine is unique and the wine cannot be mar­ basis that the upper farms benefit in keted in terms of present legislation. As a times of a water shortage; result of the special manufacturing process and requirements for -the wine, the sugar con­ This and the uncertainty as to how the water tent is higher than in the case of ordinary should be apportioned inter se between the wines, and therefore special statutory pro­ upper and the lower farms, have caused many visions have to be made. The addition of cane problems. sugar to wine to increase the sugar content is of course illegal. The manufacture of this (ii) Only cultivated land under irrigation on “auslese” type of wine will naturally be limi­ 1st October, 1918, may be irrigated ted in extent and the persons wanting to from the Waterval River, unless ap­ manufacture it will be specially authorized to proval for rotational cropping is ob­ do so by the Minister upon application being tained from the Water Court. made, and strict control measures will be applied in this regard as well. This creates a problem— At the request of the organized liquor trade vodka is also being defined in the Act in (in) An owner may interchange one mor­ order to eliminate practical problems, especi­ gen of land under crops for three mor­ ally in connection with its labelling. In order gen under fruit trees or garden on the to place the functioning of the Brandy Board distinct understanding that land under on a more efficient and practical basis, the fruit trees may be used solely for that amendments proposed in the Bill are being re­ purpose and that vegetables may be quested. grown in the gardens only for reason­ The further amendments in the Bill are able domestic use and not for sale. consequential upon the few matters of pnin- This state of affairs has presented many prob­ ciple which I have mentioned. lems and has caused dissension. The building Mr. Speaker, I hope that I will receive the of a dam will not, in itself, solve the prob­ support of the House for these few amend­ lems of the riparian owners, and the only ments. way in which this matter and the periodical shortage of water can be rectified, is to annul *Mr. D. M. STREICHER: On behalf of the existing order of the Water Court by this side of the House I just want to say to legislation and to construct a dam in the river !h,e hon. Minister that we have no criticism for the storage of surplus water. The building of the proposed amendments. of the said dam has been approved by Parlia­ The few principles which the hon. the ment in terms of White Paper No. W.P.O.— Minister mentioned, namely those contained ’65 and funds have been made available for m clauses 1, 2 and 3, were explained to us this purpose. The riparian owners have also last year, and after consultation with the De­ been duly informed. partment it was very clear that these amend­ This Bill, as well as the steps taken to ments would have to be made at some stage supplement the available water and the pro­ or other. Then there is clause 4, which deals posed apportionment of all water, were ex­ with the definition of vodka. Clauses 8 and 9 plained to the riparian owners at a meeting contain consequential amendments. We ac­ convened for this purpose, and the Depart­ cordingly have no objection to the proposed ment’s proposals were unanimously accepted amendments. We shall therefore support the at the time. There is, therefore, no dispute over the contents of this Bill, or the agreement contained therein. Motion put and agreed to. This Bill provides for the annulment of the order of the Water Court of 1918. for the Bill read a Second Time. basis on which permits for existing use will 1159 26th FEBRUARY, 1968 1160 be issued and for the control of the water The present works and the present beneficiaries in the proposed dam to be constructed in the no doubt will, as I understand from what the Waterval River, as well as any other water hon. the Deputy Minister has said and from found in the river, with a view to placing the White Paper, be cared for during the inter­ the existing development in the area on a vening period between now and when the dam sound basis. I should like to reassure land- is built, but perhaps when the Deputy Minis­ owners up stream of the proposed dam whose ter replies he will tell us, not only for the in­ properties will be situated within the Govern­ formation of this House but for the guidance ment water control area and whose water of the farmers who will be interested, as irri­ rights were also laid down in terms of the gators, in the water from the dam to be order of the Water Court of 1918, and who erected, when it is anticipated that this work may be concerned about the way in which will be put in hand and when it will be com­ their water rights will be affected by this pleted; so that while we repeal the Water legislation, by pointing out to them that per­ Court order now, we substitute something ot mits will be issued and that the quantity of substance hereafter in its place. Apart from water authorized by these permits will be that, we have no objection to the Bill, and I based on the decision of the Water Court; in want to say again that we wish the Deputy other words, existing lawful and profitable de­ Minister luck and wish him well in his career velopment will be recognized. I think that the as Deputy Minister of Water Affairs. riparian owners in this area will also be re­ ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER OF WATER assured by this. AFFAIRS: As the hon. member for South As regards the establishment of an irriga­ Coast has once again made the point, I should tion board for this area, I may also point like to give the assurance, in order to satisfy out to these owners that although an irriga­ him and other parties who will read the re­ tion board is authorized to levy rates, such ports of this debate, that we shall not lightly a board will not levy rates on land in respect do something so drastic by way of legislation of which no services are rendered. I am men­ unless the different parties have reached an tioning this specifically because there may be agreement beforehand. I also want to give some uncertainty on this point as well. In the them the assurance that we are trying in this case of substantial differences in the value of way to solve a problem that has become such the service rendered, the Water Act provides a difficult one. I want to assure the hon. mem­ for the levying of differential rates. ber that there is complete unanimity. The An irrigation district may be divided into position was so difficult that it could not really several sub-districts at the request of the deteriorate any further, and this Bill can only owners in the area and each sub-district will improve matters. be represented on the irrigation board. Mem­ As regards the time of completion of the bers of the irrigation board are elected by water works, we have already given the vote, and each ratepayer under the board riparian owners the assurance that it will be scheme has one vote for every five morgen done expeditiously and that it will receive of rateable land, with a maximum of ten priority, and they are satisfied to accept that. votes. I hope this makes clear to the riparian I want to tell the hon. member that they are owners what precisely their rights will be, and completely satisfied about the establishment of I hope—and I am addressing this to the hon. the principle contained in this legislation, member for Lydenburg in particular—that the which they welcome, as they are with the pro­ riparian owners will have no further anxiety. mise that the work will be tackled soon. Mr. D. E. MITCHELL: This is the first Bill Motion put and agreed to. that the hon. the Deputy Minister brings be­ Bill read a Second Time. fore the House, and 1 would like to congratu­ late him on his perspicacity in bringing a non- TRANSKEI CONSTITUTION AMEND­ contentious measure of this kind before us. I MENT BILL think it bodes well for his future progress in this House. T think he has taken a very bold (Second Reading) step, but one which has been carefully timed, to come with a measure of this sort. ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU The subject matter of the Bill is simple. ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: I There is only one point which worries me a move— little about this Bill, and that is that we are repealing by legislation a decision of the That the Bill be now read a Second Time. Water Court which was applicable to these people who are drawing water for irrigation Only two principles are actually involved in at present from the Waterval River. But the this Bill, namely—- dam is not built vet and there are other dams (a) the way in which the white portions of which are contemplated in terms of the White the districts of Matatiele and Port St. Paper issued, so that while we are now an­ Johns will be dealt with, and nulling an order of the Water Court we have not yet provided a dam from which the water j (b) the position in relation to paramount is in future to be drawn by the irrigators. chiefs, chiefs, headmen and tribes. 1161 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1162

Clauses 1, 2, 3 and 4 (a), (b) and (c) deal with Republic to establish separate courts for the Matatiele and Port St. Johns. Occupation or areas concerned, may first be made. ownership by Bantu persons is not being en­ The second principle contained in the Bill visaged for the white portions of these two relates to the position of paramount chiefs, districts as is the case in respect of those por­ chiefs, headmen and tribes. Their position is tions of the other Transkeian districts which being affected by clause 4 (d) of the Bill—i.e. are at present being occupied by Whites and the proposed new Item 22A of Part B of the which will have to become black. Consequent­ First Schedule to the Transkei Constitution ly, the portions in question of the said two Act. That Act does not give specific legislative districts were dealt with somewhat differently in powers to the Legislative Assembly in regard the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963. In this to paramount chiefs, chiefs, headmen and way the Transkeian Legislative Assembly may tribes as such. in terms of Items 2 and 14 of Part B of the First Schedule to the Transkei Constitution There are, however, several provisions in Act make laws on Bantu education and wel­ terms of which the Legislative Assembly and fare services in the 26 districts of the Transkei, other Transkeian bodies have indirect and but it has been provided specifically that this sometimes direct powers in relation to the said power does not apply in respect of any area matters. So for instance section 45 provides in the district of Matatiele or Port St. Johns that the function of designating paramount which is not a Bantu area. chiefs, chiefs and sub-chiefs, vests in the re­ gional authority concerned subject to confir­ On the other hand, however, the Transkeian mation by the State President, and the creation Legislative Assembly does have legislative of. any new paramount chieftainship or chief­ power in respect of the white portions of the tainship, which means the creation of a new said two districts as far as certain matters are tribe, is subject in addition to a recommenda­ concerned, and consequently the amendment tion of the Legislative Assembly. The Legisla­ of the Transkei Constitution Act so as to ex­ tive Assembly also has legislative powers in clude the relevant portions in all cases is being regard to matters such as Bantu authorities, contemplated. This entails amendments to the agriculture and settlements, in respect of which following provisions of the said Act, namely— existing legislation is larded with provisions giving powers to and placing duties on chiefs (a) courts—sections 48 and 50 and Item 4 and headmen. of Part B of the First Schedule; As far as headmen are concerned, there is (b) matters relating to group areas—section the additional consideration that, according to 60; a legal opinion, ithe Legislative Assembly does have certain powers in relation to them, be­ (c) estates of citizens of the Transkei—Item cause of certain legislation which was in force at the time of the establishment of the Trans­ 8 of Part B of the First Schedule; and keian Government. (d) births, marriages and deaths in respect Therefore it is not always clear where the of citizens of the Transkei—Item 15 of line is to be drawn in regard to legislation of Part B of the First Schedule. the Legislative Assembly which affects the said matters, and consequently it is being pro­ As far as the courts are concerned, I just posed to rectify the position in the new Item want to touch on clause 1 of the Bill. The 22A by specifically giving the Legislative As­ seats of the existing Bantu affairs commis­ sembly legislative powers in respect of para­ sioner’s and magistrate’s courts in the two mount chiefs, chiefs, headmen and tribes, sub­ districts concerned are at present situated in ject to the provisions of section 45 and sub­ the white portions and not in the Transkei. Of ject further to the condition that no para­ course, the Transkeian Government will even­ mount chief or chief may be dismissed with­ tually have to move the seats of the courts out the approval of the State President. The which will fall under it to its own area, but latter condition is necessary because para­ this naturally depends on the provision of mount chiefs and chiefs are also members of officers, etc., and consequently it is being pro­ the Legislative Assembly as a result of which vided in the proviso to the proposed new sec­ their dismissal may affect the constitution of tion 48 (6) of the Transkei Constitution Act the Legislative Assembly which is a matter in (clause 1 of the Bill) that the seat of an in­ respect of which the Transkeian Government ferior court which comes under the control of has no powers. These are the two principles. the Transkeian Government, may, until the Minister of Bantu Administration and De­ velopment determines otherwise, be situated Mr. T. G. HUGHES: T want to set the outside the Transkei. This is being done mere­ Deputy Minister’s mind at rest at once by tell­ ly for the sake of affording them an oppor­ ing him that we support this Bill. I would also tunity to acquire the necessary accommodation like to say that we realize that he was not re­ inside the Transkei. sponsible for the original drafting of the Act. If the Government now finds itself embarrassed Tn terms of clause 1 (2) the State President bv the uncertainty as to what the position is, will determine the date on which the arrange­ obviously this Deputy Minister is not the man ments in regard to the inferior courts will come who must take the responsibility for it, and into operation, so that the preliminary ar­ therefore I cannot criticize him too severely on rangements which are necessary to enable the that issue. 1163 26th FEBRUARY, 1968 1164

The Deputy Minister has dealt with the was that when the rest of the Transkei was clauses seriatim and has explained why it is zoned? necessary to pass this Bill to deal with the establishment of courts by the Transkei The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU Government in the Transkei proper. That is DEVELOPMENT: Quite a big part of Umtata quite understandable, and we have no difficulty is zoned for Whites. in that regard, in respect of the ordinary Bantu affairs commissioners’ courts. Flowever, he did Mr. T. G. HUGHES: The zoning commis­ not deal very fully with the Fligh Court and sion certainly visited Umtata because Umtata there is just one question I want to ask him. The was included in its terms of reference. It High Court of the Transkei only operates in visited every other village and town in the the Transkei and has jurisdiction over Trans­ Transkei, except Umzimkulu, Matatiele and keian subjects. The amendment says that the Port St. Johns. High Court of the Transkei shall not have jurisdiction in or over any area in the districts The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ of Matatiele or Port St. Johns, which is not a TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: This is Bantu area. I want to ask the Deputy Minister not a zoning question; it is a group area to clarify this for us, either now or in the question. Committee Stage. What will happen in regard to divorces? Because that court also handles Mr. T. G. HUGHES: No, I am talking divorces in the Transkei. What will happen to about the zoning clause. In terms of this Transkeian citizens who are resident in the amendment Port St. Johns cannot be zoned white areas of Port St. Johns and Matatiele? At now. the moment we have the Bantu Divorce Court which comes to the Transkei; it visits the The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ whole of the Transkei and the cases are dealt TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: It is for with there: but if the High Court is estab­ group areas purposes—you must read the Bill lished and it takes over all divorce cases as well again. as appeals from the Bantu Appeal Court, may not these citizens of the Transkei who live in Mr. T. G. HUGHES: Surely this will have these particular white areas be denied the the same effect in that Port St. Johns will not right to go to the High Court for their di­ be zoned now. Will the Minister tell me Port vorces? Will they not be compelled to follow St. Johns can still be zoned in terms of the the ordinary procedure and go to a Bantu di­ Transkei Constitution Act? Will he tell me? vorce court established elsewhere? In this case it would be at King William’s Town. I men­ The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ tion this because of the possible additional ex­ TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: Never, pense or difficulties they will have in attend­ never. ing this court unless, of course, it is decided that the court will in any event still visit Port Mr. T. G. HUGHES: But there is nothing St. Johns and Matatiele. I mention this as an to exclude Port St. Johns from the zoning pro­ administrative matter, because for the sake of vision as the Transkei Constitution Act reads convenience it might be better to have the at present. High Court of the Transkei actually exercising jurisdiction over the Transkeian citizens who The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ are resident in these two white areas. TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: You are As regards the zoning clause, this has, of confusing zoning and group areas. course, become necessary because of the un­ certainty which existed in Matatiele and Port Mr. T. G. HUGHES: As the Transkei Con­ St. Johns. It will be remembered that origin­ stitution Act now reads, a zoning commission ally an indication was given by the Govern­ can be appointed to zone any of the towns ment that Umzimkulu would be in the same mentioned in the definition clause of the Trans­ position as Port St. Johns and Matatiele, in kei. that it would not form part of the Transkei proper. But subsequently the Government The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ changed its mind as regards Umzimkulu, and TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: Yes. though when the zoning commission was appointed . . . Mr. T. G. HUGHES: The Minister says “yes”. Well, Port St. Johns and Matatiele are The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU two towns which are mentioned. Let me read DEVELOPMENT: When was any indication clause 3 of this Bill. It refers to section 60 of given that Umzimkulu’s position would be the the Act and reads as follows: “Section 60 of the same as that of Matatiele? principal Act is hereby amended by the addi­ tion of the following subsection . . .” Now, Mr. T. G. HUGHES: It was given on fre­ what does section 60 of the principal Act say? quent occasions. I want to remind the hon. I quote section 60 (1)—- the Deputy Minister that when the zoning committee was appointed Umzimkulu was The Minister of Bantu Administration and specifically excluded from its operations. Why Development may at any time appoint a 1165 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1166

committee to investigate the zoning of any stitution Act which can stop the Minister from area or portion of an area falling within the appointing a zoning commission to come and jurisdiction of any municipality, village man­ zone Port St. Johns.” That was the position. agement board or local board in any district But this amending Bill excludes Port St. Johns mentioned in section 2 for occupation or and those people know now that this Minister ownership by Bantu persons. cannot appoint a zoning commission to zone Port St. Johns for black occupation. That is subsection (1) of section 60. Clause 2 of the Bill now before us specifically men­ The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ tions the districts of Matatiele and Port St TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: Now you Johns, along with all other districts. Clause 3 blame us for that? of the Bill adds a subsection (5) to section 60 of the principal Act, and reads as follows— Mr. T. G. HUGHES: No, but I blame the Minister for not knowing what is in his Bill. The provisions of this section shall not [Interjections.] What was the point the hon. apply in any area in the district of Matatiele the Minister made? The Minister said this or Port St. Johns which is not a Bantu area, clause had nothing to do with zoning. That is and the Group Areas Act, 1966 (Act No. what he said to me. If one looks at the Han­ 36 of 1966), shall, in so far as it is applic­ sard report one sees he made the interjection: able, continue to apply in any such area. “This has nothing to do with zoning.” Does the Minister not know what is contained The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ in his amending Bill? Does he not know? TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: I said you were confusing zoning and group areas. The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ [Interjections.] TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: Yes, I know, but what is your point? Mr- T. G. HUGHES: How can I confuse them if this Bill particularly mentions zoning? Mr. T. G. HUGHES: The point is simply this, that in the past Matatiele and Port St. Johns did not _ know what their position was Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Will the hon. mem­ with any certainty. They had assurances from ber please come back to the Bill? He must the Cabinet, but they did not accept those ignore the interjections because they have assurances, and they have requested time and nothing to do with the Bill. again that their position be made clear. The Mr. T. G. HUGHES: With due respect. Sir, hon. the Deputy Minister is quite right, he is this clause . . . trying to protect his Minister. He is quite right This amending clause 3 of the Bill now makes it quite clear that Port St. Johns cannot be Mr. SPEAKER: Yes, the hon. member can zoned, but previously Port St. Johns could be speak about zoning, but the Deputy Minister zoned. has explained that that is covered in the Bill. Mr. T. G. HUGHES: Yes, that is what I The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU am dealing with, and I say we accept this ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: measure because it now clarifies the position That is quite clear. I do not know what you which was not clear before. The interjections are arguing about. made by the hon. the Minister this afternoon have proved the necessity for having something Mr. T. G. HUGHES: It is the Minister who more definite on the Statute Book when dealing is arguing. with these matters. Because there is more cer­ tainty now as regards the two places mentioned, Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I think the hon. we on this side support this measure. member should come back to the Bill. I now come to clause 4 of the Bill, and with regard to the new paragraph (d) of part Mr. T. G. HUGHES: It is the Minister B of the First Schedule to the principal Act. I who is arguing, the Minister does not know want to ask the Deputy Minister to explain to what is in this Bill. I welcome this amending us in his reply or during the Committee stage clause 3 because it now gives certainty to Port whether it is but an oversight or whether it is St. Johns and Matatiele as to what the position intentional that the words “acting chief’ were is. The Minister will know that his predecessor, omitted. The paragraph is probably quite in and, in fact, I think he too, had requests from order, but I just want to make sure there has Port St. Johns that he should by means of an not been an oversight. Perhaps the Minister Act of Parliament make it clear that they can tell us whether it has been omitted on pur­ would not be included in the Transkei but pose. The new paragraph (d) refers to section would remain outside the Transkei. The reply 45 of the principal Act. and section 45 reads those people received was, “You are a white as follows— area, it is not necessary to make any such pro­ vision.” But because of section 60 of the (1) After the constitution of the first Cabi­ principal Act, those people were worried. They net of the Transkei the function of de­ said: “There is nothing in the Transkei Con­ signating paramount chiefs, chiefs and 1167 27th FEBRUARY, 1968 1168

acting chiefs in respect of any region words “acting chiefs” I want to point out to according to Bantu law and custom the hon. member for Transkei that they are shall . . . included in the definition of “chief” in section 73 of the principal Act. Consequently it is not and it is then laid down that certain things will necessary to insert those words here. be done in a certain manner. The latter part of the new paragraph (d) reads as follows— Mr. T. G. HUGHES: In section 45 they are specially mentioned and that is why I raised Provided that no law of the Legislative it. Assembly shall authorize or grant authority for the deposition or dismissal of para­ •The DEPUTY MINISTER: I shall ascer­ mount chiefs or chiefs without the prior ap­ tain exactly what the position is as far as this proval of the State President. matter is concerned, and I shall deal with it during the Committee stage, if necessary. As I want to know whether “acting chiefs” have far as divorces are concerned, I shall fully been left out on purpose and, if so, why? Will acquaint myself with the position and I shall the Minister please explain it to us? give the hon. member a full statement during the Committee stage. As there are no differ­ •Mr. H. J. BOTHA: Mr. Speaker, the mea­ ences in regard to matters of principle, I move sure now before this House, supplies long-felt the second reading. want. I want to point out to the hon. member for Transkei that this Bill makes provision Motion put and agreed to. for group areas in the white portion of Mata- tiele, both in the town itself and in the district, Bill read a Second Time. as well as in Cedarville. It is not at all con­ cerned with zoning. In 1965 a commission •The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Mr. was appointed to investigate the question of Speaker, I move— zoning in the magisterial districts situated within the Transkei. The commission was not That the House do now adjourn. in Matatiele and Port St. Johns. This measure now makes provision that group areas may be Agreed to. established in Matatiele as well as in Port St. Johns. An uncertainty of long standing is now The House adjourned at 5.34 p.m. being removed by this Bill and now there may be confidence in the future of the white part of Matatiele. As matters are at present, three fifths of the district of Matatiele is white whereas twq fifths is black. These people felt that the Transkei Constitution Act is its pre­ TUESDAY, 27TH FEBRUARY, 1968 sent form placed them in a difficult situation, but they never felt that they would be discri­ minated against. _ There has in point of fact been no discrimination against them, because Prayers—2.20 p.m. now we have this Bill which will establish group areas in Matatiele. QUESTIONS The legal competency of the courts is also being established until such time as it is pos­ For oral reply: sible to build the black township outside Matatiele which is being planned. When that Bantu Persons Allowed in Urban Areas township has been built, the administrative offices of Bantu Administration will be trans­ *1. Mrs. H. SUZMAN asked the Minister ferred from the present town to the black of Bantu Administration and Development: township where it will then function inside that black area, which surely is quite logical. How many Bantu males and females, re­ Unfortunately, as a result of lack of funds, that spectively, are at present qualified in terms cannot be done at the present time. The ad­ of section 10 (1) (a), (b) or (c) of the Bantu ministrative buildings and the courts will (Urban Areas) Act to be in each of the therefore have to remain where they are until urban areas of Cape Town. Port Elizabeth, such time as funds become available in due East London, Kimberley, Pietermaritzburg, course. Durban. Bloemfontein, Pretoria and the Wit- The most important point, however, is that watersrand. group areas can now be implemented, which will create a geat deal of confidence amongst The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ the Whites as far as the future of that part of TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: the country is concerned. I regret that statistics in this connection •The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU are not kept, and the information can only ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: be obtained by extensive enquiries and a Mr. Speaker, as regards the omission of the large volume of work. 1169 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1170

Planning: Applications for Establishment of appeal has been lodged with the Appel­ Factories late Division of the Supreme Court. It the appeal is upheld the deposits will, *2. Mrs. H. SUZMAN asked the Minister of course, have to be retained until such of Planning: time as the third-party objections have been considered by boards. The deposits (1) How many officials are employed by can, therefore, not be refunded at this his Department to deal with applica­ stage, but will be refunded if the appeal tions in terms of section 3 of the Physi­ is rejected. cal Planning and Utilization of Re­ sources Act; Patrol Vessels used by Sea Fisheries Division (2) (a) how many applications under this *4. Mr. J. W. E. WILEY asked the Minister section have been (i) received to date, of Economic Affairs: (ii) granted and (iii) refused and (b) from what areas were the applications re­ (a) How many patrol vessels of the Sea ceived. Fisheries Division are in operation, (b) where are they stationed and (c) since when The MINISTER OF PLANNING: have they been in commission. U) 14. The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS: (2) (a) (i) 130; (ii) 7; (iii) 2. (a) Three; (b) Pretoria-Witwatersrand- 115 Vereeniging complex (b) Table Bay harbour, Gordon’s Bay and Port Elizabeth 9 Saldanha Bay; and Cape Town 4 Potchefstroom 1 (c) 23rd December, 1966. 2nd March, 1967, Slurry 1 and 22nd June, 1967. The particulars furnished are for the Inspectors of Fisheries period 19th January. 1968. to 22nd February. 1968. In respect of 27 applications the appli­ *5. Mr. J. W. E. WILEY asked the Minister cants have been informed that permission of Economic Affairs: is not necessary. 94 applications are still (a) How many inspectors of fisheries are under consideration. employed by his Department, (b) when were they appointed and (c) what are their salary Refund of Deposits Paid in Respect of Race scales. Classification Objections The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ECONOMIC *3. Mrs. C. D. TAYLOR asked the Minister AFFAIRS: of the Interior: (a) and (c): (1) Whether all the R20 deposits paid to his Department by the 223 third-party 1 Chief Fisheries Inspector: R3,000x objectors to race classification whose R120—R3.600 p.a. objections had not been finalized by the Race Classification Appeal Board as at 3 Senior Fisheries Inspectors: R2,400x 19th May, 1967, have been refunded; if R120—R3.000 p.a. not, 10 Fisheries Inspectors: R1.560xR120— (2) whether it is intended to refund these R2,400 p.a. deposits to the persons concerned; if not, why not. (b) on various dates between 23rd April, 1956, and 21st February, 1967. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Fishing Licences and Quotas (1) The deposits have not been refunded. *6. Mr. J. W E. WILEY asked the Minister (2) When a certain third-party objection of Economic Affairs: was recently investigated by the Race (1) For the catching of which species of Classification Appeal Board it con­ marine life are licences and/or quotas cluded that it had no power to hear the required; objection as it was not a valid objec­ tion in terms of Act No. 30 of 1950, (2) (a) how many licences and quotas, as amended by Act No. 64 of 1967. The respectively, have been granted for each decision of the Board was upheld by the species since 1948 and (b) how many Supreme Court on appeal, but a further are in force at present; 117) 27th FEBRUARY, 1968 1172

(3) whether licences and quotas are trans­ recommendation of the Pilchard/Maas- ferable; if not, what penalty attaches banker Boat Limitation Committee in to the use of a licence or quota by terms of Part II of the Sea Fisheries unauthorized persons; Regulations. (4) what steps does the Department take to Licences for the taking of perlemoen ensure that only licence or quota hol­ and oysters for commercial purposes are ders operate such licences or quotas; not transferable. Rock lobster export quotas, quotas for the capture and pro­ (5) whether any fees are payable in respect cessing of whales at land stations and of licences or quotas; if so, (a) what the processing of perlemoen, as well as fees, (b) to whom and (c) when. licences for the operation of fish meal and fish oil factories, are not freely The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ECONOMIC transferable. Such transfers may be sanctioned by the Minister of Economic AFFAIRS: Affairs, if he is satisfied that justifica­ (1) (i) Pilchard, maasbanker, anchovy and tion for such a step exists. In all mackerel (for fish meal and fish instances of abuse quotas and licences oil); could be cancelled; (4) premises are regularly inspected by (ii) rock lobster (for export); officials of the Division of Sea Fisheries who report all developments in writing (iii) whales (land stations); to the Director of Sea Fisheries. Serious cases are reported to the Minister of (iv) perlemoen (for processing); Economic Affairs. Various statistical returns are required to be submitted to (v) oysters (for commercial purposes); the Director of Sea Fisheries, in terms and of the Sea Fisheries Act and Regula­ (vi) all other species of fish caught for tions, as well as to other State Depart­ commercial purposes. In this case ments, including the office of the only the payment of the prescribed Registrar of Companies; and fishing boat and fish factory licence (5) (a), (b) and (c) no special fees are pay­ fees (excluding fish meal and fish able upon the granting of quotas. In oil factories) are required to per­ the case of rock lobster exports the mit the commencement of opera­ quotaholder is required to pay a small tions; inspection fee to the South African Bureau of Standards. (2) (a) and (b) Fish meal and fish oil quotas in respect of pilchard, maasbanker, Fishing boat licence fees, varying anchovy and mackerel: 9; 25. from 50 cents per annum for a rowing boat to R300.00 per annum for a fac­ Export quotas in respect of Cape rock tory ship in excess of 10,000 tons, fish lobster: 28; 50. factory licence fees of R100.00 per annum per factory, oyster permits at Export quotas in respect of Natal R1.00 each per annum and licences for rock lobster are freely available on an perlemoen diving at R40.00 each per annual basis. Six applications have thus annum, are payable to Receivers of far been received and approved for Revenue on 1st January each year. 1968. Applications by Indian Fanners for Financial Whale catching quotas (land stations): Assistance 2; 2. *7. Mr. W. T. WEBBER asked the Minister Perlemoen processing quotas: 6; 6. of Finance: (a) How many applications by Indian Licences in respect of oysters and farmers for financial assistance were (i) re­ all other species of fish caught for com­ ceived and (ii) granted by the Land and mercial purposes, as well as fishing boat Agricultural Bank during each year from and ordinary fishing factory licences 1957-’58 to 1966-’67 and (b) what was the (excluding fish meal and fish oil fac­ total amount of assistance (i) applied for by tories) are issued on application as a and (ii) granted to Indian farmers during matter of routine; each of these years. (3) fishing boat licences are normally trans­ The MINISTER OF FINANCE: ferable upon the completion of certain formalities and the payment of a small (a) (i) 1957-1964: Nil. prescribed fee. Licences for boats fishing 1965: 8 Applications were received. for pilchard, maasbanker, anchovy or 1966: 9 Applications were received. mackerel, are only transferable on the 1967: Nil. 1173 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1174

(ii) 1957-1964: Nil. Pampierstad, Taung 897 1965: Nil. Selosesha, Thaba Nchu 550 1966: I Loan was granted. Thlabane, Rustenburg 1,054 1967: Nil. Witzieshoek, Harrismith 50 (b) (i) 1957-1964: Nil. (c) At a total cost of R31,406,078 including 1965: R71.000. services: 1966: R907.971. 1967: Nil. (d) The estimated number is: (i) 203,500; (ii) 48,875. (ii) 1957-1964: Nil. 1965: Nil. The information furnished is as at 30th 1966: R9.600. September, 1967. 1967: Nil. Provision for Financial Assistance to Indian Houses Erected for Bantu in Homelands Farmers *8. W. T. WEBBER asked the Minister of *9. Mr. W. T. WEBBER asked the Minister Bantu Administration and Development: of Agriculture: (1) Whether any provision is made on the (a) At which centres in the Bantu home­ estimates of his Department for finan­ lands have houses been built by his Depart­ cial assistance to be given and/or sub­ ment for occupation by Bantu, (b) how sidies to be paid to Indian farmers; if many have been built at each centre since so, what provision; 1960, (c) at what cast were they built and (d) how many Bantu from (i) White urban (2) whether he will make a statement in areas and (ii) the Bantu homelands have regard to the matter. been settled in these houses. The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICUL- The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT (Reply laid upon Table with leave of House): (1) Indian farmers are entitled to subsidies on soil conservation works, obtain their (a) (b) fertilizer requirements at subsidized Arthurseat, Bushbuckridge 2 prices and they are entitled to railage Elandsdoring, Groblersdal 281 rebates on stockfeed and the removal Ga Kgapane, Duiwelskloof 500 of livestock to other pastures if they Temba Leboneng, Hammanskraal 226 reside in areas listed as pasturage dis­ Leeuwfontein, Groblersdal 2 tress areas. They are also entitled to a Lenyenye, Tzaneen 850 railage rebate of 37i per cent on all London, Bushbuckridge 504 maize and maize products. Makwelereng, Potgietersrust 1,380 Makwarela, Sibasa 72 (2) In view of the reply to (1) above no Mankweng, Pietersburg 83 further statement is deemed necessary. Moletsi, Pietersburg 1,772 Motetema, Groblersdal 111 Bantu Pupils Attending Coloured Schools Namakgale, Phalaborwa 2,465 Nkwoakowa, Tzaneen 450 *10. Mr. J. M. CONNAN asked the Minis­ Sebayeng, Pietersburg 288 ter of Coloured Affairs: Thulamahashe, Bushbuckridge 111 How many Bantu pupils in the Cape Pro­ Ga Rankuwa, Pretoria 3,458 vince are attending Coloured (a) primary Mabopane, Pretoria 1,480 and (b) secondary and high schools. Hammarsdale, Camperdown 89 Madadeni, Newcastle 1,981 Mondlo, Vryheid 60 AFFAIRS:*S* tt, ^ INISTER OF COLOURED Ngwelezana, Empangeni 327 Osizweni, Newcastle 1,876 (a) 1,077 according to the latest informa­ Sundumbili, Eshowe 498 tion available as at 7th June, 1967. Kwa Makuta, Umbumbulu 1,091 Magabeni, Umbumbulu 403 (b) None. Umlazi, Umbumbulu 13,654 Ilinge, Lady Frere 647 Mdantsane, East London 6,479 Coloured Management and Consultative Sada, Whittlesea 796 Committees Zwelitsha, King William’s Town 1,372 *11. Mr. J. M. CONNAN asked the Minis­ Mogogong, Taung 264 ter of the Interior: Itsoseng, Lichtenburg 1,344 Montchiwa, Mafeking 715 (a) How many Coloured (i) management Mothibistat, Kuruman 498 and (11) consultative committees have been 1175 27th FEBRUARY, 1968 1176

constituted and (b) how many of the man­ The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ agement committees have been elected as TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: well as nominated members. (1) (a) Vulindlela Furniture Factory. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: (b) Umtata. (a) (i) 21; (ii) 35. (2) (a) One Bantu beer brewery. (b) 1. (b) Butterworth. Classification of Various Population Groups Trading Stations Taken over from Whites *12. Mr. J. M. CONNAN asked the Minis­ ter of the Interior: *14. Mr. A. HOPEWELL (for Mr. T. G. Hughes) asked the Minister of Bantu Adminis­ (1) How many persons in the Republic are tration and Development: at present classified as (a) White, (b) Bantu, (c) Cape Coloured, (d) Cape (1) How many trading stations formerly Malay, (e) Griqua, (f) Chinese, (g) owned by Whites in the Transkei have Indian, (h) Other Asiatic and (i) Other been acquired by (a) the Xhosa De- Coloured; velepment Corporation or other official bodies and (b) Bantu persons or com­ (2) (a) how many persons were reclassified panies; during 1967 from (i) White to Coloured, (ii) Coloured to White, (iii) Coloured to (2) how many of the stations acquired by Bantu and (iv) Bantu to Coloured and the Corporation are managed by (a) (b) how many in each category were White, (b) Coloured and (c) Bantu per­ reclassified at their own request as a sons; result of an appeal or objection lodged by the persons concerned. (3) how many of the stations managed by white persons are being used as train­ The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: ing schools. (1) (a) to (i) The required statistics are not The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ available. TRATION AN DDEVELOPMENT: (2) (a) (i) 9; (ii) 91; (iii) 29; (iv) 136. (1) (a) 175 trading stations have been ac­ quired by the South African Bantu • (b) (i) 1; (ii) 91; (iii) 3; (iv) 136. Trust of which 148 have been taken over by the Xhosa Development Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, aris­ Corporation. ing from the hon. the Minister’s reply, why is it that those figures are not available if the (b) Statistics are not kept and the in­ very purpose of the race classification register formation cannot be obtained is to determine who and how many are in readily. each group? (2) (a) 51; (b) 21; (c) 76. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! (3) Four. In addition facilities for the train­ Mr. W. V. RAW: Mr. Speaker, further to ing of Bantu have been established at the reply of the hon. the Minister, may I ask Umtata. on what basis statistics are issued by his Depart­ ment in regard to population figures per race Qualified and Unqualified Bantu Teachers group? [Interjections.] *15. Mr. L. F. WOOD asked the Minister Industrial Concerns Administered by Xhosa of Bantu Education: Development Corporation (a) How many Bantu teachers are (i) *13. Mr. A. HOPEWELL (for Mr. T. G. qualified and (ii) unqualified and (b) how Hughes) asked the Minister of Bantu Adminis­ many of those in each category who are tration and Development: subsidized or employed by his Department are in receipt of salaries in excess of R2.00 (1) (a) What industrial concerns are ad­ per working day. ministered by the Xhosa Development Corporation in the Transkei and (b) The MINISTER OF BANTU EDUCA­ where is each situated; TION: (2) (a) what industrial concerns have been (a) (b) established by Bantu in the Transkei (i) 21.728 21,108 and (b) where is each situated. (ii) 4,512 15 1177 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1178

Replacement of Air-Conditioned (2) (a) (i) and (b) Ten dining saloons Dining-Saloons on Trains ordered during March, 1966, for delivery during March/April, 1968, *16. Mr. L. F. WOOD asked the Minister and ten lounge cars delivered of Transport: during 1963, four of which were ordered on 9th October, 1962, and (1) Whether air-conditioned dining-saloons six on 1st November, 1962. on the (a) Orange Express, (b) Trans- Karoo Express and (c) Trans-Natal (ii) Nine dining saloons between Express have been replaced with non- 20th November, 1958, and 24th air-conditioned dining-saloons during June, 1959, and ten lounge cars the past year; if so, (i) on which trains between 4th July, 1963, and and (ii) for what periods; 18th December, 1963. (2) (a) how many air-conditioned dining- Report on Development of Table Bay Harbour saloons and lounge-cars, respectively, *17. Mr. L. G. MURRAY asked the Minis­ have been (i) ordered and (ii) placed in ter of Transport: service during the past ten years and (b) on what dates. (1) Whether the committee appointed to investigate the development of Table The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT (Reply Bay Harbour has reported; if so, when laid upon Table with leave of House): will the report be published; if not, when is the report expected; (1) (a) Yes. (2) whether any part of the planned (i) and (ii) Train No. 212 from development is proceeding pending the Durban to Cape Town on 4th, receipt of the committee’s report; if so, 11th, 18th and 25th September, what part. 1967. The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Train No. 209 from Cape (1) No; the report is not expected to be Town to Durban on 8th, 15th available before the middle of April, and 22nd September, 1967. 1968. (b) Yes. (2) No. (i) and (ii) Train No. 202 from Publications Submitted to Publications Johannesburg to Cape Town Control Board on 27th January and 16th *18. Mr. E. G. MALAN asked the Minister August, 1967. of the Interior: Train No. 203 from Cape Town to Johannesburg on 29th (a) How many publications were submitted January and 18th August, by private persons or bodies to the Publi­ 1967. cations Control Board in each year since 1st January, 1963 and (b) what was (i) the (c) Yes. title of the publication, (ii) the name of the person or body submitting the publi­ (i) and (ii) Train No. 199 from cation and (iii) the decision of the Board in Johannesburg to Durban on each case. 23rd, 24th. 27th and 29th January, 1967, 16th and 20th The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR February, 1967, and 9th, 11th, (Reply laid upon Table with leave of House): 21st and 24th August, 1967. (a) 1963 (since 1st November 1963) None Train No. 192 from Durban to Johannesburg on 24th, 25th, 1964 5 28th and 30th January, 1967. 1965 7 13th and 17th February, 1967, 1966 7 and 10th, 13th, 22nd and 25th 1967 17 August, 1967. 1968 (to date) 2. (b) (b) (i) (ii) (iii) 1964: 1. THE MANDY REPORT Mrs. M. M. Jones, Constantia Prohibited. [ 2. LOBOLA VIR DIE LEWE—André P. Rev. D. F. B. de Beer, Pretoria Passed. Brink 3. PRESENT PLEASE—John Vogel Thomas V. Bulpin, Cape Town Passed. 1179 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1180

4. THREAD NEEDLE (Design for front Madge Swindells, Cape Town Passed. cover of Trade Journal) 5. PROBLEMS AND SOLUTIONS—Ezra E. Shmuely, Johannesburg Passed. Shmuely 1965: 1. THE DARK OF THE SUN—Wilbur A. P. R. Schneider, Cape Town Prohibited. Smith 2. DIE AMBASSADEUR—André P. Brink Mrs. S. Joubert, Pietersburg Passed. 3. SEWE DAE BY DIE SILBERSTEINS— Mrs. S. Joubert, Pietersburg Passed. Ettiene le Roux 4. THE 4TH OF JULY, M. Brokensha & R. J. Cilliers, Cape Town Passed. Knowles 5. RADITZER—P. Matthiessen Federation of Women’s Institute, Prohibited. Pietermaritzburg (All paper­ back editions) 6. MALAY CAMP MEMORIES (Essay from Bernard Sachs, Johannesburg Passed. book entitled: “Personalities and Places”) 7. PRIVATE EYE, No. 94, 23.7.1965 J. E. Mullin, Sea Point Prohibited. 1966: 1. MODERN ADONIS, No. 31 (Magazine) W. Strydom, Stellenbosch Prohibited. 2. BODY BEAUTIFUL, No. 32 (Magazine) W. Strydom, Stellenbosch Prohibited. 3. DIE “AFRICAN NATIONAL CON­ University of Pretoria Passed. GRESS” EN SY AKTIWITEITE AAN DIE WITWATERSRAND (1912-1956), Deel I en II 4. WHITE MAN, THINK AGAIN F. E. Auerbach, Johannesburg Prohibited. 5. THE UNDERSTANDING MOTHER R. & W. H. Symington & Co., Passed. (Booklet) Maitland 6. PRIVATE EYE, No. 124,17.9.1966 Informa Film, Sea Point Prohibited. 7. DIE DERDE OOG Mrs. C. J. Stander, Pretoria Passed. 1967: 1. THE PATTERN OF ASSASSINATION— E. F. Paltiel, Oranjezicht Passed. Noel Crowd & Count Revo 2. SKONE VERRAAIER—Melt Mulder M. J. de Kock, Kuils River Passed. (Fotoverhaal) 3. THE LAST ZULU KING—THE LIFE J. F. de Wet, Lydenburg Passed. AND DEATH OF CETSHWAYO—C. T. Binns 4. SEX IN MARRIAGE—Margaret Smith W. Bannatyne, Cape Town Passed. (Family Doctor Booklet) 5. V.D.: THE FACTS (Family Doctor Book­ W. Bannatyne, Cape Town Passed. let) 6. WAT IS KOMMUNISME, Deel I & II Rev. H. L. Pretorius, Mqanduli Passed. Transkei. 7. THE LESBIAN IN AMERICA—D. W. Mrs. D. C. Muntingh, Pretoria Passed. Cory 8. LESBISCHE LIEFDE IN DE PRAKTYK Mrs. D. C. Muntingh, Pretoria Prohibited. —L. C. Steinman 9. DE VROUW EN HAAR SEKSUALITEIT Mrs. D. C. Muntingh, Pretoria Prohibited. P. & E. Kronhausen 10. WOMEN’S PRISON—SEX AND SOCIAL Mrs. D. C. Muntingh, Pretoria Passed. STRUCTURE—David A. Ward & Gene G. Kassebaum 11. SEX VARIANT WOMEN IN LITERA­ Mrs. D. C. Muntingh, Pretoria Passed. TURE—Jeanette H. Foster, Ph.D. 12. TOWARD AN UNDERSTANDING OF Mrs. D. C. Muntingh, Pretoria Passed. HOMOSEXUALITY—D. Cappon, M.B., F.R.C.P. (Edin.), D.P.M. 13. DIALOOG 1966-4 (Magazine) Mrs. D. C. Muntingh, Pretoria Prohibited. 1181 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1182

14. LESBIAN LOVE: OLD AND NEW— Mrs. D. C. Muntingh, Pretoria Prohibited. Walter Braun 15. THOSE WITHOUT SHADOWS—Fran­ Mr. P. Joseph, Johannesburg Passed. co! se Sagan 16. FOR WHOM THE LAND—M. I. Hirsch M. I. Hirsch, Que Que, Rhodesia Passed. 17. THE LEFT FACE OF JANUS—Elizabeth E. Renfield, Johannesburg Passed. Renfield 1968: 1. MISKIEN NOOIT—André P. Brink Rev. D. F. B. de Beer, Pretoria Decision still outstanding. 2. OL1E BY SANDBAAI—Dr. H. J. C. van Dr. H. J. C. van der Mark, Rand- Decision still der Mark burg outstanding.

Estimated Cost of Television Service explanation or clarification of the Govern- *19. Mr. E. G. MALAN asked the Minister ment’s immigration policy. These I treat as of Posts and Telegraphs: confidential and not for publication and in the circumstances I am not prepared to Whether any estimate of the cost of a furnish the information asked for by the nation-wide television service in (a) black hon. member. and white and (b) colour has been made by his Department or by any body directly Means of Communication Available to or indirectly in receipt of money from the Bantu Persons State: if so, (i) by what body and (ii) what are the particulars of the estimated cost. *21. Mr. W. V. RAW asked the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development: The MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELE­ GRAPHS: What means of communication exist (a) between urban Bantu in Durban, Johannes­ (a) and (b) No. burg, Cape Town, Port Elizabeth and East London, respectively, and their homeland (i) and (ii) Fall away. authorities and (b) between the Government and Banut in white urban areas. *Mr. E. G. MALAN: Mr. Speaker, arising from the reply by the hon. the Minister I The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ should like to ask whether this means that he TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: has no evidence that television will cost too much? (a) Chiefs representatives appointed and recognized in terms of Government *Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Notice No. R231 dated 16th February, 1962; Representations Regarding Immigration Policy (b) Advisory Boards, Urban Bantu Coun­ *20. Mr. E. G. MALAN asked the Minister cils, Bantu Affairs Commissioners and of Immigration: Urban Area Commissioners. (1) Whether he has received any represen­ Restriction of White Commercial Undertakings tations since 1st January. 1966, from persons or bodies in regard to the immi­ *22. Mr. W. V. RAW asked the Minister gration policy of the Government; if of Economic Affairs: so, (a) from what persons and bodies, (b) on what dates, (c) what was the Whether it is the intention of the Govern­ nature of the representations and (d) ment to impose any trading restrictions, what was his reply in each case; other than those contained in licensing, building and health regulations, on white (2) whether he has been approached by any commercial undertakings in white areas. persons or bodies since that date to address a meeting, gathering or sym­ The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ECONOMIC posium on the immigration policy; if AFFAIRS: so, (a) by what persons or bodies, (b) on what dates and (c) what was his No. reply in each case. Mr. W. V. RAW: Mr. Speaker, arising out The MINISTER OF IMMIGRATION: of the hon. the Minister’s reply, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he is aware From time to time T receive representa­ of the fact that his colleague the Deputy tions from persons and bodies either by Minister of Bantu Administration and Educa­ correspondence or personally asking for an tion issued a statement to the effect that white 23—A.H. Vol. 1 1183 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1184 traders would be restricted in border areas (iv) routine readings are taken daily on the white side of the border. by regular field staff at test points along the line to ascer­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I do not think that tain the cathodic condition of that question bears any relation to the hon. the pipeline. the Minister’s reply. (b) Oral reports are made when inspec­ Restrictions in Respect of Employment of tions or tests reveal defects, etc., Races in Commercial Undertakings in order that immediate remedial steps may be taken. *23. Mr. W. V. RAW asked the Minister of Labour: (2) No. Whether it is the intention of the Govern­ (3) Apart from uncovering the pipeline, ment to restrict employment in white com­ welding up pit marks and replacing the mercial undertakings in white towns or wrapping on sections where the cathodic cities to shop or other assistants who are condition of the pipeline was initially members of the same race as that which they poor, no major repair or replacement serve, or vice versa; if so, under what work has been undertaken or is expected authority. to become necessary. The MINISTER OF LABOUR: (4) Yes.

No action can be taken under the legisla­ Arrests for Suspected Reference Book Offences tion administered by my Department, but the laws which provide for the separation of *25. Mrs. H. SUZMAN asked the Minister employees of the different races will be of Police: strictly enforced. Whether the Commissioner of Police has Inspection of Durban/Johannesburg Pipeline issued any instruction or taken any other action as a result of the comments of a *24 Mr. A. HOPEWELL (for Mr. H. M. Johannesburg magistrate on 16th February, Lewis) asked the Minister of Transport: 1968, on the subject of arrests for suspected reference book offences; if so, (a) what (1) Whether regular inspections and tests instruction or

Financial Assistance for Post-Graduate (2) what amount is invested with the Pub­ Research lic Debt Commissioners (a) in Govern­ ment stock and (b) on deposit; The MINISTER OF JUSTICE (for the Minister of Planning) replied to Question *6, (3) (a) what amount accrued to the Fund by Mr. L. F. Wood, standing over from 23rd during 1967 and (b) what amount was February: received as (i) contributions from em­ ployers and employees, (ii) state contri­ Question: butions and (iii) interest from invest­ ments; (a) How many applications for financial assistance for post-graduate research during (4) what was the average rate of interest 1968 were received by the Council for received during 1966; Scientific and Industrial Research, (b) how many applications were successful, (c) at (5) (a) what was the total amount paid which universities are the successful appli­ from the Fund during 1967 in respect cants to do the research, (d) in what fields of (i) benefits and (ii) administration is the research to be conducted and (e) what costs and (b) what amounts were paid is the total amount made available by the in respect of (i) ordinary benefits, (ii) Council for such assistance. illness allowances, (iii) maternity bene­ fits and (iv) benefits to dependants of Reply: deceased contributors; (a) 378. (6) whether further consideration has been (b) 325. given to increasing the present rate of benefits; if so, what steps are contem­ (c) Universities: the O.F.S., Cape Town, plated; if not, why not. Natal, Potchefstroom, Pretoria, Rhodes, Stellenbosch, Witwatersrand. South Afri­ ca, Port Elizabeth and Randse Afri- Reply (Laid upon Table with leave of House): kaanse Universiteit. University Colleges: Western Cape, Dur­ (1) R 130,440,000. ban, Fort Hare, and Zululand. Universities: Princeton, Duke, Califor­ (2) (a) R 126,750,000. nia and Wisconsin, U.S.A., Cambridge, '(b) Nil. England and Cologne and Kiel, Ger­ many, Paris Museum, France, British (3) (a) R3,375,000. Museum, England, and Institute of (b) (i) R9,100,000. Wood Technology, Oslo. (ii) R2,275,000 (iii) R6,140,000. (d) Biology including Zoology, Botany, Entomology, Marine Biology, etc., (4) 4.673 per cent. Physics and Mathematics and related fields viz. Nuclear Physics, Statistics, (5) (a) (i) R12,569,000. etc.. (ii) R 1,400.000. Chemistry and related fields, (iii) R3.537,000. (iv) R990,000. Geology and Archeology, The figures given under items 1, 2, 3 Engineering, Surveying, and Architec­ and 5 (a) (ii) are estimated figures as ture, the final figures are not as yet available. all fields of Medicine, Dentistry, Phar­ (6) No, as it is not considered to be in the macology, etc., and applied Psychology. interests of the Fund. In this connection I have to draw attention to the fact that (e) R811,000. the total amount paid in benefits exceeds the amount received by way of contri­ Unemployment Insurance Fund butions to the Fund and it is still neces­ sary to use interest on investments to The MINISTER OF LABOUR replied to meet current expenditure. Question *16, by Mr. G. N. Oldfield, standing over from 23rd February: Concessionary Radio Listeners’ Licences Question: The MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELE­ (1) What are the total accumulated funds GRAPHS replied to Question *17, by Mr. at present standing to the credit of the G. N. Oldfield, standing over from 23rd Feb­ Unemployment Insurance Fund; ruary : 1187 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1188

Question: The MINISTER OF COMMUNITY DE- VELOPMENT: (1) How many concessionary radio listeners’ licences were issued to social pensioners 1 (a) (b) (0 during 1966 and 1967, respectively; Morgen. (2) on what basis are concessionary radio 33 Coloured Bishop Lavis- licences granted to social pensioners; group areas; Matroosfontein 850 Athlone 1,400 Elsies River 1,000 (3) whether consideration has been given Duinefontein 450 to granting concessionary licences to Kensington 1 \ (a) social pensioners living together. Kensington 2 / 850 (b) social pensioners living in unsubsi­ Parow-South 1 725 dized homes for the aged and (c) any Parow-South 2 180 other social pensioners; if so, what Bellville-South, North steps have been taken or are contem­ of Kasselsvlei Road 300 plated; if not, why not. Bellville-South, South of Kasselsvlei Road 350 Reply: Bellville-South 3 650 Peninsula 23 (1) The figure for 1966 is unfortunately not (Lansdowne B) 400 available. During 1967, 6,087 conces­ Peninsula 24 sionary licences of R1.00 each were (Wynberg A) 325 issued to social pensioners who live in­ Peninsula 25 dependently alone and to inmates of (Wynberg B) 375 homes for the aged and infirm who with Peninsula 26 very few exceptions are social pension­ (Ottery-Parkwood) 500 ers. Peninsula 27 (Retreat-Grassy (2) To inmates of homes for the aged and Park) 1,700 infirm in respect of whom a subsidy is Peninsula 28 paid by the Government, a Provincial (Lotus River) 525 Administration, a Municipality or a Peninsula 29 church represented on the South African (Retreat) 520 Broadcasting Corporation’s Advisory Peninsula 30 Council on religious broadcasts and to (Lansdowne C) 500 social pensioners and- beneficiaries who Peninsula 31 are in receipt of the maximum old age (Diep River-Heath- or war veteran’s pension or disability field) 500 grant and who live independently alone. Peninsula 32 (Ottery B) 375 Peninsula 33 (3) Yes. but as there are so many thou­ (Ottery C) 300 sands of social pensioners, it was only Peninsula 34 possible to extend the concession to (Lansdowne D) 500 those most in need of it. Peninsula 35 (Lansdowne E) 525 For written reply: Schoonekloof 200 Elsies River North 700 Elsies River East Coloured and Indian Group Areas in Cape (South of Parow South) 850 Peninsula Peninsula 39 (Lansdowne Road) 2 1. Mrs. H. SUZMAN asked the Minister of Peninsula 41 Community Development: (Bonteheuwel) 2,187 Newfields 300 (1) (a) How many Coloured and Indian Peninsula 43 group areas, respectively, have been (Lotus River C) 600 proclaimed in the Cape Peninsula, (b) Peninsula 45 (Rondevlei) 100 where are they situated and (c) what is Peninsula 49 the extent of each area; (Slangkop-South of Kommetjie) 1,500 (2) how many (a) economic and (b) sub- 1 Malay economic dwelling units (i) were there group area: in each area at the end of 1967 and Schotsche Kloof 380 2 Indian Rylands 700 (ii) are expected to be built during 1968. group areas: Cravenby 375 1189 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1190

(2) I unfortunately cannot furnish the hon. The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ member with figures in respect of each individual TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: group area since it cannot readily be determined how many dwelling units of the schemes which Statistics are not kept on the basis of the have been carried out by the local authorities, are hon. member’s question and I am. therefore, situated in each group area. The following num­ not in a position to furnish the information ber of dwellings for Coloureds and Indians in asked for. Coloured and Indian group areas respectively, has been erected in the Peninsula by the local Compulsory School Education for Coloured authorities and other bodies by means of funds Pupils provided by the State: 3. Mrs. C. D. TAYLOR asked the Minister Dwelling units. of Coloured Affairs: Sub- Economic. economic. (1) (a) In which areas is school education Coloureds: compulsory for all Coloured pupils and Bellville South 241 336 (b) up to what stage is it compulsory; Parow South 377 100 Retreat 245 — (2) (a) when is it anticipated that compul­ Bishop Lavis — 5,107 sory education will be introduced for all Elsies River — 5 Coloured children and (b) to what stage Sidneyvale 106 — will it be made compulsory. Crawford 28 — Matroosfontein — 732 The MINISTER OF COLOURED Hout Bay (Area not yet AFFAIRS: proclaimed) 105 132 Grassy Park 200 329 (1) (a) and (b) (i) At all State and State- Lotus River — 412 aided Coloured schools in the Cape Municipal area Province of Natal for every (erected by Cape Town Coloured child in that province City Council) 10,904 9,815 older than seven years up to Athlone 273 — the completion of the school Indians: year in which the child reaches Rylands 47 — the age of sixteen years or suc- Cravenby 30 26 • cessfully completes a course prescribed for the eighth stan­ It is contemplated to provide the following dard. estimated number of scheme dwellings with State funds in the coming financial year. The figures in (ii) At the following other schools: respect of economic and sub-economic dwellings Alice Primary School, Victoria are furnished together since the local authorities East; are at this stage unable to make a division. Wilfred Scott Primary School. King William’s Town: Parow 150 Douglas Ross Primary School, Cape Municipal area 4,000 (depending on Keiskammahoek; weather conditions) Carinus Primary School, Cape Divisional Council Cradock; area 500 Arsenal Road Secondary Goodwood 650 School, Simonstown; and William Pescod High School, The above figures do not include dwellings Kimberley. erected or to be erected by the private sector. School attendance is com­ pulsory for all Coloured chil­ Fines for Offences Relating to Reference Books dren, who have completed their 2. Mrs. H. SUZMAN asked the Minister seventh but not their four­ of Bantu Administration and Development: teenth year and who are resi­ dent within three miles of tha (1) What was the total amount (a) imposed schools in question, by the and (b) paid in fines during 1967 in the nearest road. Bantu Commissioners’ Courts in Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, East London, (iii) As from 1st January, 1968 Kimberley, Pietermaritzburg, Durban, every Coloured child, irrespec­ Bloemfontein, Pretoria and on the Wit- tive of age or standard at­ watersrand, respectively, for offences tained, who is resident within relating to reference books; three miles along the shortest (2) how many persons were (a) fined for road of any State or State- these offences by each of these courts aided school in the Republic of and (b) were imprisoned for failure to South Africa and who is en­ pay the fines. rolled at the beginning of a 1191 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1192

school year in any standard at (b) 886 bursaries and 878 loans. any such school, shall be obliged, in terms of Govern­ (c) 92 bursaries and 81 loans. ment Notice No. 2136 of the 29th December, 1967, regularly (2) (a) R92,846. to attend school at any such school until the end of the (b) R 102,946. school year for which the child so enrolled. Indian Students Attending Part-Time Classes (2) (a) and (b) Due to the present shortage 6. Capt. W. J. B. SMITH asked the Minister of teachers and accommodation it is of Indian Affairs: not possible at this stage to indicate when compulsory education will be How many Indian students are at present introduced for all Coloured children or attending academic (a) primary and (b) to what stage it will be made compul­ secondary part-time classes for adults. sory. The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: Per Capita Expenditure in Respect of Coloured Education (a) Nil. 4. Mrs. C. D. TAYLOR asked the Minister (b) 970. of Coloured Affairs: Indian Teachers Employed as Inspectors of What was the estimated per capita expen­ Schools diture on Coloured pupils and/or students (a) in primary classes, (b) in secondary and 7. Capt. W. J. B. SMITH asked the Minister high school classes, (c) in technical and of Indian Affairs: vocational classes and (d) at the University College of the Western Cape during the (1) How many Indian teachers are serving latest year for which information is avail­ as inspectors of schools; able. (2) (a) how many Indian persons are ser­ The MINISTER OF COLOURED AF­ ving in other senior educational capa­ FAIRS: cities and (b) what positions do they hold; The present bookkeeping system followed by the Department does not allow the cal­ (3) how many Indian persons are serving culation of per capita expenditure on on the administrative staff of the educa­ Coloured pupils (a) in primary classes, (b) tion section of his Department. in secondary and high school classes and (c) in technical and vocational classes. The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: As regards (d) the per capita expenditure (1) 7. in respect of students at the University Col­ lege of the Western Cape was R969.14 (2) (a) 1,047. during the financial year 1966-’67. (b) 1 Professor Loan Bursaries Granted to Coloured Students 1 Educational planner 1 Psychometrist 5. Mrs. C. D. TAYLOR asked the Minister 13 Senior lecturers of Coloured Affairs: 39 Lecturers 9 Junior lecturers (1) Flow many Coloured (a) school pupils, 1 Acting subject inspector (b) students at teacher training institu­ 4 Heads of departments tions and (c) students at other institu­ 348 Principals tions were granted Departmental (i) 332 Vice principals non-repayable and (ii) loan bursaries 298 Senior assistants during 1967; (3) 60. (2) what total amounts were awarded in respect of (a) non-repayable and (b) Indian Affairs: Provision of Educational loan bursaries during the same year. Institutions The MINISTER OF COLOURED AF­ 8. Mr. L. E. D. WINCESTER asked the FAIRS: Minister of Indian Affairs: (1) (a) None. Only travelling and board­ (1) In respect of how many (a) teacher ing allowances are granted to indi­ training schools, (b) high schools, (c) gent pupils. secondary schools, (d) primary schools, 1193 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1194

(e) technical or vocational schools and (c) No such classes are provided at Indian (f) other educational institutions for schools. The M. L. Sultan Technical Indian students were the buildings com­ College in Durban receives a 100 per pleted by his Department during 1967; cent subsidy to provide inter alia also for such full-time training. (2) in respect of how many institutions in each category were extensions made to (d) R678 per student. the buildings during the same year; Officials Employed by Sea Fisheries Division (3) what was the total expenditure on the provision of accommodation at educa­ 12. Mr. J. W. E. WILEY asked the Minister tional institutions during the same year. of Economic Affairs: The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS; (1) (a) How many officials are there in the Sea Fisheries Division and (b) what are (1) (a) Nil; (b) 4; (c) Nil; (d) 8; (e) Nil; their ranks and scales of pay; (f) Nil. (2) (a) how many of them are marine scien­ (2) (a) 1; (b) 17; (c) 2; (d) 3; (e) Nil; (f) 1. tists and/or biologists, (b) when were they appointed and (c) what are their (3) R2,141,812. qualifications. Loan Bursaries Granted to Indian Students The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC AF­ FAIRS: 9. Mr. W. T. WEBBER asked the Minister of Indian Affairs: (1) (a) 190. (1) How many Indian (a) school pupils, (b) 1 Director of Sea Fisheries: R6,000x (b) students at teacher training institu­ R300—R6,600. (Personal salary for tions and (c) students at other institu­ present incumbent of post: R6.600 tions were granted Departmental (i) xR300—R7.500). non-repayable and (ii) loan bursaries during 1967; 1 Assistant Director of Sea Fisheries: R5,1 OOxR 150—R6,000. (2) what total amounts were awarded in respect of (a) non-repayable and (b) 1 Chief Professional Officer, 1 Adminis­ loan bursaries during the same year. trative Control Officer: R4,200x R 150—R4,800—R5,100. The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS; 2 Chief Technicians: R3,600xR150— (1) (a) (i) 1,450; (ii) Nil. R4,200. (b) (i) 845; (ii) 198. 1 Administrative Officer, 3 Senior Pro­ fessional Officers: R3,000xR120— (c) (i) 302; (ii) 85. R3,600xR 150—R4,200. (2) (a) R 190.943; (b) R37.807. 1 Chief Fisheries Inspector, 5 Senior Technicians, 1 Senior Technician 10. 1 Withdrawn.] (Ships’ Radio: R3,OOOxR120— R3,600. Per Capita Expenditure in Respect of Indian Education 3 Senior Fisheries Inspectors: R2,400x R120—R3.000. 11. Mr. W. M. SUTTON asked the Minister of Indian Affairs: 1 Special Craftsman: R2,400xR120— R2.640. What was the estimated per capita expen­ diture in Natal on Indian pupils and/or 13 Technicians, 1 Technician (Ships’ students (a) in primary classes, (b) in Radio), 23 Professional Officers: secondary and high school classes, (c) in R1,680xR 120—R3,000. technical and vocational classes and (d) at 7 Administrative Assistants: Rl,020x the University College for Indians during R90—R 1,560xR 120—R3,000. the latest year for which information is available. 6 Fishing Harbour Masters, 10 Inspec­ tors of Fisheries: Rl,560xR120—- The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: R2,400. (a) R53 per pupil. 2 Technical Assistants (Netman) 3 Stores Officers: R840xR90—R 1,560 (b) R84 per pupil. xR120—R2.400. H 9 5 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1196

2 Fishing Harbour Assistants: R840x 3 (Collective posts) Skippers (Wagter 1 R90—R 1,560xR 120—R1,800. II and III): Rl,560xR120—R2,400; 3 Typists, 2 Woman Assistants: R840x 1 (Collective posts) Senior Mechanic: R90—R 1,560xR 120—R1,800. R1,560xR 120—R2,640; 1 Machine Attendant: R750xR90— 2 (Collective posts) Boatswains: Rl,200x R 1,560. R90—R 1,560xR 120—R2.400; 1 Coloured Laboratory Attendant, 2 2 (Collective posts) Mechanics: R 1,200 Coloured Messengers: R408 (fixed). xR90—R 1,560xR 120—R2,400; 15 Coloured Harbour Assistants: R450x 1 (Collective posts) Chief Steward: R42—R660—R720. R930xR90—R 1,560x R120—R2,040; 2 Winch Operators: Local rates. 4 (Collective posts) Cooks: R930xR90 —R 1,560xR 120—R2,040; MARINE SECTION (VESSELS) 1 (Collective posts) Leading Fireman: 1 Marine Superintendent: R3,900xR150 R930xR90—R1,560xR120—R2,040; —R4,200. 2 (Collective posts) Mechanics: R930x 1 (Africana II) Master: R3,600xR150— R90—R1,560xR 120—R2.040; R3.900. 1 (Collective posts) Boatswain: R840x 1 (Africana II) Chief Engineer: R3.240 R90—Rl,560xR120—R 1,800; xR120—R3.600. 2 (Collective posts) Boatswains Mates: 1 (Africana II) Chief Officer, 1 (Afri­ R840xR90—R 1,560xR 120—R 1,800; cana II) Second Engineer: R2,880x R120—R3,240. 2 (Collective posts) Second Stewards: R840xR90—R 1,560xR 120—R 1.800; 1 (Africana II) Second Officer: R2,640x R120—R3,000. 26 (Collective posts) Able Seamen: R750xR90—R 1,560; 1 (Africana II) Third Engineer, 1 (Afri­ cana II) Third Officer: Rl,680xR120 3 (Collective posts) Stewards: —R2.640. R750xR90—R 1,560; 1 (Sardinops) Master: R2,880xR120— 3 (Collective posts) Firemans: R750x R3,240. R90—R 1,560: 1 (Sardinops) Engineer: R2,640xR120— (2) (a) 24. R3,000. (b) On various dates since 1948. 1 (Sardinops) First Officer: Rl,680x R120—R2,640. (c) D.Sc. 2. Dr. rer. nat. 1. 1 (Sardinops) Second Officer: Rl,560x Ph. D. 1. R120—R2,400. M.Sc. 7. B.Sc. (Hons.) 3. 1 (Collective posts) Engineer (Relief): B.Sc. 10. R2,640xR120—R3.000. 13. Mr. T. G. HUGHES—Reply standing 1 (Collective posts) Mate/Master: over. (Relief) R2,640xR120—R3,000; Land Purchased from Whites in S.W.A. 3 (Collective posts) Skippers (Other than Wagter I, II and III): Rl,800x 14. Mr. T. G. HUGHES asked the Prime R 120—R3.000; Minister: 3 (Collective posts) Engineers: Rl,680x (1) How many (a) farms, (b) portions of R120—R2.640; farms and (c) erven in towns or villages have been purchased by the Government 1 (Collective posts) Third Officers: from White persons in South West R 1,680xR 120—R2,640; Africa; (2) what is (a) the total area of the land 2 (Collective posts) Mates: Rl,560x thus acquired and (b) the total expendi­ R120—R2,400; ture so far incurred by the Government; 1197 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1198

(3) (a) how many of the farms acquired (2) what (a) trading and (b) industrial con­ have been leased to White tenants and cerns has the Corporation itself estab­ (b) to what use are the remainder of lished in the Territory. the farms being put. The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ The PRIME MINISTER: TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: (1) (a) and (b) 410 farms and portions of (1) (a) 2. farms. Information concerning the areas of land which should be re­ (b) R3.050.00. garded as portions of farms is not readily available. (c) Financing of businesses of general dealer. (c) 68. (2) (a) 1 butchery and 1 garage and filling (2) (a) 3,076,155 h.a. station. (b) R24,204,498. This amount includes (b) 1 furniture factory and 1 mecha- the expenditure incurred in respect nical workshop. of the purchase of farms, erven and shops with stock. In addition the Bantu Investment Corpora­ tion has erected business premises for 4 (3) (a) 273. general dealers, 2 restaurants and 1 butchery for the purpose of letting them. (b) 51 are not yet being used and 86, which have been placed at the dis­ Hotels or Motels Acquired from Whites in posal of the Department of Bantu Transkei Administration and Development, are being used for grazing cattle 17. Mr. T. G. HUGHES asked the Minister belonging to Natives. of Bantu Administration and Development:

Tribal or Regional Authorities Established in (1) How many hotels or motels in the S.W.A. Transkei have been (a) acquired from Whites and (b) built by (i) the Xhosa • Development Corporation and (ii) Bantu 15. Mr. T. G. HUGHES asked the Minister persons or companies; of Bantu Administration and Development: (2) where are these hotels or motels situ­ How many (a) tribal and (b) regional or ated. other authorities have been established in South West Africa for each ethnic group. The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: (1) (a) 2. (b) (i) 1 is under construction, (ii) None. (a) and (b). In the southern sector 17 Reserve Boards have been established in (2) The two referred to in (1) (a) above are respect of various reserves. In the northern at Butterworth and Qamata Poort and sector traditional councils operate in respect the one referred to under (1) (b) (i) is in of the groups concerned, namely— Umtata. Eastern Caprivi, 2. Koakoveld, I. Prospecting and Mining Leases in Bantu Areas Okavango, 5. 18. Mr. T. G. HUGHES asked the Minister Ovamboland, 8. of Bantu Administration and Development: Loans Granted by Bantu Investment (1) How many (a) prospecting and (b) min­ Corporation ing leases have been granted to (i) White and (ii) Bantu persons or com­ 16. Mr. T. G. HUGHES asked the Minister panies in Bantu areas; of Bantu Administration and Development: (2) in respect of what metals have mining (1) (a) How many loans has the Bantu leases been granted in (a) the Ciskei, Investment Corporation granted to (b) the Western areas, (c) the Northern Bantu businessmen or owners of light areas and (d) Natal and Zululand; industry in South West Africa, (b) what is the total amount of such loans r (3) what revenue accrued to (a) the South and (c) for what purposes were the loans African Bantu Trust, (b) State corpora­ granted; tions, (c) Bantu authorities and (d) indi­ 1199 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1200

vidual Bantu during 1967 from royalties Regional and Tribal Authorities Established and prospecting fees. for Various Ethnic Groups The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ 21. Mr. T. G. HUGHES asked the Minister TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: of Bantu Administration and Development: (1) (a) (i) 25; (ii) Nil; 58 granted to com­ (1) (a) How many regional authorities have panies. been established in respect of (i) the Ciskei, (ii) the Tswana group, (iii) the (b) (i) 4; (ii) Nil; 44 granted to com­ Northern Sotho group, (iv) the Tsonga panies. group, (v) the Bavenda group, (vi) Natal and Zululand, (vi) Witzieshoek (2) (a) Nil. and (viii) the Thaba ’Nchu area and (b) how many more such authorities are (b) Platinum. expected to be created; (2) (a) how many tribal authorities exist in (c) Nil. respect of each of these areas or groups (d) Nil. and (to) in respect of how many tribes (The hon. member will observe have tribal authorities not as yet been that particulars in respect of base constituted. minerals are not included.) The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ (3) (a) R 409,000. TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: (1) (a) (i) 9 (b) Nil. (ii) 9 plus 2 tribal authorities (c) Approximately R35,000 accrued to vested with the powers of Bantu authorities or tribes. regional authorities. (d) Approximately R20.000. (iii) 8 plus 2 tribal authorities vested with the powers of Urban Bantu Councils regional authorities. 19. Mr. T. G. HUGHES asked the Minister (iv) 4 plus 1 tribal authority of Bantu Administration and Development: vested with the powers of a regional authority. In respect of which areas in South Africa have urban Bantu councils now been con­ (v) 3 stituted. (vi) 12 The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ (vii) 2 tribal authorities both vested TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: with the powers of regional Benoni, Boksburg, Johannesburg, Roode- authorities. poort, Grahamstown, Uitenhage, Bloemfon­ (viii) 1 tribal authority vested with tein, Kroonstad, Parys, Welkom and Dur­ the powers of a regional ban. authority. Inspectors of Agricultural Labour (b) 16. 20. Mr. T. G. HUGHES asked the Ministei of Bantu Administration and Development: (a) (b) (1) How many inspectors of agricultural Ciskei ...... 35 Nil labour have been appointed; Tswana national unit ... 76 10 North-Sotho national unit 74 60 (2) (a) how many farms were inspected Tsonga national unit ...... 22 Nil during 1967 and (b) in what areas are Venda national unit ...... 27 Nil the farms situated. Natal and Zululand ...... 145 135 Witzieshoek ...... 2 Nil The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ Thaba ’Nchu ...... 1 Nil TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: Forestry Activities in Bantu Areas (1) One. 22. Mr. T. G. HUGHES asked the Minister (2) (a) 523 farms. of Bantu Administration and Development: (b) Mainly the Highveld of Transvaal and farms in the Pretoria-Wit- (1) What is the extent of land (a) covered watersrand-Vereeniging complex. with indigenous forest, (b) on which 1201 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1202

commercial plantations have been (6) (a) how many handicraft centres have established, (c) on which non-com­ been established and (b) where are they mercial wood lots have been established, situated; (d) planted with resilient fibres, (e) under sugar cane and (f) under irriga­ (7) what trading concerns has the Corpora­ tion in the Bantu areas of the Republic, tion itself established or taken over and excluding the Transkei; (b) where are they situated; (2) how many (a) sawmills, (ib) creosoting (8) (a) what industrial concerns has the plants and (c) decortication plants have Corporation itself established and (b) been established by the Department. where are they situated; The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ (9) what is the total sum of money TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: deposited by Bantu in savings banks established by the Corporation. 11) (a) 32,064 morgen (b) 21,620 morgen The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ (c) 8,101 morgen TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: (d) 9,939 morgen (e) 16,340 morgen (1) (a) 666. (f) 23,792 morgen. (2) (a) Nil. (b) R2,784,687. (b) 13. (2) (a) (i) 79; (ii) 15. (c) 2 automatic decorticators are in (b) (i) R854.294; (ii) R41.624. operation, 3 more are being installed and 22 portable units are in use. (3) (a) 299. Bantu Agricultural Advisers (b) R478.412. 23. Mr. T. G. HUGHES asked the Minister (4) None. of Bantu Administration and Development: (5) 198. How many Bantu agricultural advisers (a) are employed by his Department and (b) are (6) (a) 2. being trained at agricultural schools. (b) Near Numbi Gate, White River The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ district, and at Hammanskraal. TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: (7) (a) and (b): (a) 481. (b) 139. 5 wholesale businesses: Heystekrand, Pilanesberg, Bushbuckridge, Soek- Loans Granted by Bantu Investment mekaar, Malaita, Nebo, Koringpunt, Corporation to Bantu Traders Potgietersrust. 24. Mr. T. G. HUGHES asked the Minister 2 trading centres: Mafeking, Ndikwe. of Bantu Administration and Development: 1 general dealer: Katima Mulilo. (1) (a) How many loans has the Bantu Investment Corporation granted to 1 butchery: Katima Mulilo. Bantu traders since its inception and (b) what is the total value of these loans; 1 restaurant: Katima Mulilo. (2) (a) how many loans has the Corporation 1 garage and filling station: Oshikati, granted for the establishment of (i) S.W.A. service concerns and (ii) industrial undertakings and (b) what is the total 1 general dealer’s business: Umgababa, value of these loans in each case; Natal. (3) (a) how many individual housing loans 1 general dealer’s business: Greytown. has the Corporation granted and (b) (8) (a) and (b): what is the total value of these loans; 3 furniture factories: Oshikati, S.W.A., (4) what other loans have been granted; Rustenburg, Port Dumford. (5) how many trading premises has the 3 mechanical workshops: Oshikati, Corporation itself erected for sale or Lenyeenye, Tzaneen, Temba, Ham­ lease to Bantu: manskraal. 1203 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1204

2 bakeries: Sibasa, Temba. the interrogation, (b) for what reasons it was undertaken, (c) how long the 1 leathergoods factory: Rustenburg. interrogation lasted and (d) whether any further steps have been taken. 1 hand spinning and weaving factory: Umtata. The MINISTER OF POLICE: 1 meat deboning plant: Umtata. (1) Yes. 5 brickworks: Transvaal and Natal. (2) No. (9) R 1,868,700. Closing of Private Schools 25. Mr. L. F. WOOD—Reply standing over. The MINISTER OF BANTU EDUCA­ TION replied to Question 9, by Mr. P. A. 26. Mr. E. G. MALAN—Reply standing Moore, standing over from 23rd February: over. Question: Publications Scrutinized (1) Whether any private schools closed 27. Mr. E. G. MALAN asked the Minister during 1967; if so, (a) what are their of Finance: names and (b) for what reasons did they close; How many publications deemed to be objectionable were (a) held back by the (2) whether any private schools are to Customs Department for scrutiny, (b) sub­ close in the near future; if so, (a) what mitted to the Publications Control Board are their names and (b) for what and (c) declared objectionable by the reasons; Board (i) during 1966-’67 and (ii) from 1st April, 1967, to date. (3) whether any of these schools will be re-opened in another locality; if so, The MINISTER OF FINANCE: which schools. (a), (b) and (c): Reply: Period. Number of Number of Number of (1) Yes; (a) and (b). The following Titles held Titles sub­ Titles Roman Catholic private schools were backfor mitted to declared closed by the owners, of their own scrutiny. the Publi­ objection­ accord: cations able by the Control Board. Mazenod Lower Primary (Durban), Board. Mazenod Higher Primary (Durban), 1.4.66 Mazenod Secondary (Durban), to Scafell (Underberg), 31.3.67 722 426 230 St. Aloysius (Greytown), Emphumulwane (Bulwer), 1.4.67 Emnamaneni (Bulwer), to Endaka (New Hanover), 22.2.68 305 212 189 Sina Muva (Inanda), Centocow Higher Primary (Bulwer), 28. Mr. E. G. MALAN—Reply standing Centocow Lower Primary (Bulwer), over. Lgxalingenwa (Polela), Suzanna (Kranskop), 29. Mr. W. V. RAW—Reply standing Entweka Lower Primary (Camper- over. down), Entweka Higher Primary (Camper- down), Interrogation of Letter-Writers St. Joseph’s (Bedford), Coega (Port Elizabeth), 30. Mr. E. G. MALAN asked the Minister Sjambok—Syn—Ouderkraal (Pretoria), of Police: Glen Beulah (Ixopo) and St. Agnes (Lions River); (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to a report that police had interrogated The following Roman Catholic two writers of a letter to a Johan­ private schools closed for reasons men­ nesburg newspaper; tioned opposite the name of each school: (2) whether he will make a statement in regard to the matter indicating (a) Caritas Higher Primary, what section of the police undertook Caritas Secondary and Caritas Voca- 1205 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1206

tional Training (Pietersburg)—• (6) whether interest is paid to subscribers resettlement of community; who paid deposits; if not, why not. Ditokeng Lower Primary and Dito- keng Higher Primary (Potgieters- Reply: rust)—on request of the owner (a) (b) to make the establishment of a (1) 31.3.1964 75,449 608,971, community school possible; 31.3.1965 121,530 592,714, Viljoenskroon (Viljoenskroon)—be­ 31.3.1966 150,514 595,270, cause the pupils have been trans­ 31.3.1967 175,982 597,806, ferred to the Community school. 30.9.1967 192,493 595,769; (2) Yes; (a) and (b) the following Roman (2) (i) where a new service is provided Catholic private schools will probably for a business undertaking, except have to close in the near future as a where an established undertaking result of the resettlement of the com­ opens a new branch, munities:— (ii) where the financial stability of an Alva (Dundee), applicant for a new service is Amakazi (Helpmekaar), doubtful or where doubt arises St. Edwards (Dundee), about the financial position of an Wesselsnek Lower Primary, existing subscriber, Wesselsnek Higher Primary (Klip River), (iii) where a subscriber’s telephone Maria Ratshitz Lower Primary, service was suspended twice for the Maria Ratshitz Secondary and non-payment of his account within Maria Ratshitz Higher Primary a period of twelve months, and (Dundee); (iv) of all applicants on the Witwaters- the Bergville Roman Catholic private rand to whom new services are school will probably have to close provided; because it is wrongly situated. (3) (a) and (b). All subscribers not men­ (3) The first eight schools mentioned in para­ tioned in (2); graph (2) will probably be replaced by schools under new classifications in the (4) 31.3.1964 R889.029, new homeland of the communities 31.3.1965 R 1,443,724, concerned, while the Bergville Roman 31.3.1966 R 1,822,246, Catholic private school will probably 31.3.1967 R2,118,860, be replaced by a farm school. 30.9.1967 R2,441,024; (5) (a) and (b) No. The amount was paid Deposits in Respect of Telephone Subscribers into current revenue in the usual way The MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELE­ and is being treated as ordinary GRAPHS replied to Question 10, by Mr. E. revenue; G. Malan, standing over from 23rd (6) No. The deposits are not collected to February: increase revenue, but solely to reduce the risk of financial losses. Despite Question: these deposits and the other strict measures that are consistently applied (1) What was the estimated number of tele­ to obviate losses, the following amounts phone subscribers on 31st March of had to be written off during the each year since 1964, and on the latest financial years in question as irre­ date for which figures are available, coverable revenue in respect of telephone from whom deposits were (a) required rentals, telephone call charges, etc.:— and (b) not required; 1963/1964 R139,359, (2) in what cases are deposits required from 1964/1965 R 42,355 telephone subscribers; 1965/1966 R 64,794, (3) (a) from what categories of subscribers 1966/1967 R 51,108. are deposits not required and (b) how many are there at present in each Work Permits for Bantu Teachers Refused by category; Municipal Labour Bureaux (4) what was the total amount of deposits The MINISTER OF BANTU EDUCATION held by the Post Office on each of the replied to Question 13, by Mrs. H. Suzman, above-mentioned dates; standing over from 23rd February: (5) whether the money received by way of Question: deposits has been invested; if so, (a) where and (b) at what average rate of Whether his Department received any re­ interest; presentations during 1967 with regard to the 1207 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1208

refusal by municipal labour bureaux of familiar with the Afrikaans language and permits to teachers appointed to posts within can handle it well, but that is about all they their areas; if so, (a) from which areas and still have in common with the Afrikaner. (b) what were the reasons for the refusals. *Dr. J. C. OTTO: You must read the full Reply: quotation. Yes; (a) Benoni (b) influx control, but *Mr. E. G. MALAN: I shall be only too the matter is being investigated interdepart­ pleased to quote certain other words which mentally. the hon. member used—there where he said that a method must be found “to give atten­ SUID-AFR1KAANSE AKADEM1E V1R tion to the views of Afrikaners who, although WETENSKAP EN KUNS AMENDMENT not academic literary men, nevertheless have BILL a good knowledge of literature and a healthy judgment”. These are the words of the hon. (Third Reading) member. And do you know, Mr. Speaker, whom the hon. member mentioned as an ex­ *The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDU­ ample of this kind of Afrikaner? He men­ CATION; Mr. Speaker, I move— tioned himself as an example. I shall not go any further into what the hon. member said. That the Bill be now read a Third Time. Perhaps you will not allow me to do so, Mr. Speaker. All that I still want to say, is that *Mr. E. G. MALAN: Mr. Speaker, in this since this side of the House are agreed as far Bill there are two main principles which we as this Bill is concerned, it is a great pity that have accepted. The first is the validation of the the hon. member for Koedoespoort, particu­ rules of the council where doubts have existed larly after the reprimand which has already in the past in that connection. The second been addressed to him, should come forward principle which we have accepted is that in again with a suggestion like this. regard to the appointment of sub-committees and of faculties of the Academy. *Mr. M. W. BOTHA: Do you not agree The Suid-Afrikaanse Akademie vir Weten- with that? skap en Kuns is receiving a subsidy of over R40.000 from this House this year. We are •Mr. E. G. MALAN: Most certainly not. satisfied to leave the spending of that amount Has that hon. member not heard of great in their hands with full confidence. That is writers who have been honoured throughout why it is a pity, therefore, that I feel myself the world but who in their own lifetime were compelled to stand up here to-day and refer banned from their own country? Has the hon. to a discordant note which occurred a short member not yet heard of Calvin who had to while ago after we had accepted this principle, go to Geneva to continue his work? Has he a discordant note which took the form of a not heard of Thomas Mann, one of the great­ declaration which was made by an eminent est German writers of all time, to whom the hon. member on that side in connection with Nobel Prize was awarded, and who had to this Bill. I am referring to the hon. member live and work in America? Has he not heard for Koedoespoort and a statement which he of our own Roy Campbell? Has he not heard made the day before yesterday in a Sunday of Jean-Jacques Rousseau, a man who could newspaper. You will recall that the entire not write in his own country? Has he not House approved these sub-committees of the heard of Dante, the greatest writer in the Academy, because we know that sub-commit­ Italian language, who laid the actual founda­ tees, inter alia the sub-committee which is go­ tions of the Italian language, and who could ing to allocate the Hertzog prize, will act in an not live in his own Florence but had to die in entirely impartial manner. That is why we on Ravenna? Has he not heard of Einstein? Has this side of the House also felt it our duty, he not heard of Neils Bohr? [Interjections.] and I believe that the majority of members on I am just replying in passing to the interjection that side also felt it to be their duty, not

This is a perfectly simple matter. All that is corresponds to a senate in a university, will being done in clause 4 is to make it clear that also be a multi-racial body. if the statutory conditions imposed upon uni­ versities at the payment of subsidies are not Mr. W. V. RAW: Do not let the “ver- complied with, the subsidies may be withheld, kramptes” hear that. and what the hon. member for Houghton is doing is in fact to encourage the universities Mr. P. A. MOORE: That is the position to disregard statutory conditions. All this and I regard it as a step forward. The point clause does is to place a sanction on any I should like to make is that the hon. the failure to comply with the statutory condi­ Minister, in addition to having this institu­ tions. In my second-reading speech I men­ tion for higher education, also has the Indian tioned what those statutory conditions are. University College in Durban. He is respon­ The only conditions which may be imposed sible for the control of that institution. The are conditions in terms of the provisions of Indian University College comes under our the Act, not the imaginary conditions existing Separate Universities Act, the Extension of in the mind of the hon. member for Hough­ University Education Act, as it was called. I ton. The hon. member for Houghton has all should like to ask the hon. the Minister kinds of sinister ideas as to what the Minister whether he now contemplates an amendment is going to do. The Act imposes restrictions to that Act, as far as Indian education is con­ upon the Minister; he cannot impose simply cerned so that he would be able to extend any condition. If that is the opinion held by this principle to the university. After all, the the hon. member in the light of the legal university is the superior institution, and if advice obtained by her, then I would advise this principle is applied to the junior institu­ her to get in touch with my law advisers as tion, which is the college for advanced tech­ well. They will very soon satisfy her. The hon. nical education, then naturally it must be ap­ member need not distress herself in this way. plied to the university institution. If that is She need not dream dreams and see visions accepted as the policy to-day, then I should about the matter; she may rest assured that like to know whether it will be extended to no Minister succeeding me, perhaps even from the Coloured University College of the West­ her own party one day, will be able to abuse ern Cape and to the three Bantu university this Act. colleges. Sir, I approve of the principle and I can assure the hon. the Minister that in ap­ Motion put and agreed to (Mrs. H. Suzman plying this principle he is in very good com­ dissenting). pany—and I do not mean my company. When we considered the Separate Universities Bill Bill read a Third Time. we had expert opinion from people of the highest standing in Afrikaans education in INDIANS ADVANCED TECHNICAL South Africa—the greatest I know. We have EDUCATION BILL no men of higher standing either in our Eng­ lish or Afrikaans universities. Three of these learned professors who gave evidence repre­ Report Stage taken without debate. sented Sabra. Then we had the principal of Pretoria University and the principal of Pot- (Third Reading) chefstroom University. The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: I Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Is it necessary to go move— as far as that? That the Bill be now read a Third Time. Mr. P. A. MOORE: Sir, I wish to encourage the hon. the Minister in the step he is going Mr. P. A. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, it is cus­ to take. tomary at the third-reading stage of a Bill to take into review what we have discussed at the Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think the hon. second reading and the committee stages and the Minister needs encouragement. also to consider the implications of the Bill and the effect it will have on future policy. I Mr. P. A. MOORE: I will not pursue that regard this as a very important Bill indeed, except to say that these five learned profes­ because it gives us a new approach to higher sors, the flower of our universities in South education in this country. This is a Bill on Africa, supported the view of the hon. the higher education. Strangely enough, we have Minister and so did the minority on that com­ four Ministers of higher education. The Minis­ mission. Finally I would therefore suggest that ter of Indian Affairs has now taken what I the four Ministers of higher education in the regard as this forward step. He has decided, in Cabinet should get together and tell us what this Bill, to have a council for these advanced their policy is and whether they wish to technical colleges, a council which will be amend the policy stated in the Separate Uni­ multi-racial. It will not be representative of versities Act. I think that is essential, because one race only, but of both Indian and white this is a complete departure from the principle persons. I think that is a step forward. In laid down there. If will not help hon. mem­ addition to that, the board of studies, which bers to say that this is the natural develop­ 1213 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1214 ment of Nationalist Party policy, because ten redraft it or to have an amendment moved years ago this proposal would have been ana­ in the Other Place to put the matter right. thema. The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Yes, I will do that. Mr. P. A. MOORE: That is the point on Clause put and agreed to. which I should like the hon. the Minister to enlighten us. House Resumed: The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: I think I ought to reply just shortly to the Bill reported with an amendment. hon. member for Kensington. He wants to know whether I am contemplating extending WINE, OTHER FERMENTED BEVERAGES the principle of a multi-racial council to . . . AND SPIRITS AMENDMENT BILL Mr. P. A. MOORE: And the Senate. Committee Stage taken without debate. The MINISTER: . . . to the university insti­ TRANSKEI CONSTITUTION AMEND­ tutions. Well, I cannot give the hon. member MENT BILL a reply to that question now. This is a matter which wiil receive my attention in due course Committee Stage. and I will then have a close look at it. Motion put and agreed to. Clause 1 : Bill read a Third Time. *The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: SOUTH AFRICAN INDIAN COUNCIL BILL In regard to clause 1, the hon. member for Transkei yesterday asked me for an explana­ Committee Stage. tion in regard to the future operation of the divorce courts. With the establishment of the Clause 6: High Court for the Transkei, the High Court for the Transkei will have jurisdiction only The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: I in the Transkei proper, but not over citizens want to move a small amendment to clause of the Transkei who are resident in white 6 as follows: areas. Consequently the divorce cases of citi­ zens of the Transkei who are resident in Mata- In line 2, page 5, after “disorder” to in­ tiele and Port St. Johns will still be handled sert “insolvency”. by our own courts, by the courts of the De­ partment of Bantu Administration. For the Hon. members will see that I am inserting the present they will still be handled by the word “insolvency”, because I think that should Southern Bantu Appeal Court, but when the be one of the grounds upon which a coun­ High Court for the Transkei has been estab­ cillor could be disqualified. Therefore I am lished, they will possibly be handled by the inserting the word “insolvency” after the word Sourthern Appeal Court of Natal for the sake “disorder”. It is just to bring it into line with of convenience, because then it has to be a our other legislation. court which falls under the Department of Bantu Administration as the High Court for Amendment put and agreed to. the Transkei only deals with citizens of the Transkei in the Transkei proper and not with Clause, as amended, put and agreed to. those in the white areas. Clause 7: Mr. T. G. HUGHES: I should just like to Mr. W. M. SUTTON: In the English text, ask the hon. the Deputy Minister whether the line 14 et seq, it says: “Provided that in the Department will make it convenient for the case of an equality of votes in the election of Appeal Court and the Divorce Court to visit a chairman or an acting chairman of the the Transkei, as the other court did? Council the contesting candidates shall draw lots for such election, and the winner of such The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU a draw s' all be deemed to have been elected”. ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: The Afrikaans text reads: . . die wedywer- Yes, that is the position. These courts are now ende kandidate om sodanige verkiesing paying occasional visits to certain areas and if loot . . The text should either read that the Southern Court of Natal is going to handle “the contesting candidates for such election this, they will also pay visits to Matatiele and shall draw lots”, or the words “for such elec­ Port St. Johns, in the same way as they visit tion” should be left out altogether, because Kokstad. as it stands it is not good grammar. I should like the Minister to look at it, and either to Clause put and agreed to. 1215 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1216

Clause 3: In terms of section 4 (12) of the Public Ser­ vice Act a member of the commission shall ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU vacate his office and, if he was employed as an ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: official in the Public Service prior to such I want to move the following amendment to appointment, retire on pension when he attains clause 3— •the age of 65 years. If he attains the said age after the first day of any month, he retires with In lines 6 and 7 to omit “in so far as it effect from the first day of the month follow­ is applicable, continue to”. ing that in which he attained the age of 65 I regret that it has not been possible for me to years. No provision is made for the continued see the hon. member for Transkei to tell him employment of a member after having reached about this, but this amendment merely seeks the age of retirement or for his reappointment to make it quite clear what the position is. I after he has vacated his office on having at­ do not think there will be any objection to it. tained the age of retirement. This Bill contains purely administrative Amendment put and agreed to. measures designed to make provision for the continued employment of the chairman of the Clause, as amended, put and agreed to. Public Service Commission for a further period not exceeding two years after having attained Clause 5: the age of retirement, or for his reappointment for such period if he has already retired. *The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: This is the main import of this Bill. Yesterday the hon. member for Transkei asked Mr. L. G. MURRAY: Mr. Speaker, we on me quite a number of questions and it seems this side appreciate that this legislation is to to me as if I am more keen to give him the give a permissive power to extend the period information than he is to get the information. of service of the chairman of the Commission He asked me whether it was necessary to men­ for an additional period of up to two years. We tion acting chiefs or whether this omission was on this side have no objection and therefore due to an oversight. The omission of the words support the measure. concerned is not due to an oversight. In the definition contained in the Transkei Constitu­ Motion put and agreed to. tion Act, we find that the designation “chief” includes “acting chief”, etc. Consequently the Bill read a Second Time. words “acting chief” need not be inserted. Mr. T. G. HUGHES: [Inaudible.] MARRIAGE AMENDMENT BILL ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER: It is unneces­ (Second Reading! sary to include these words there. I can read the entire definition to the hon. member. I ♦The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: can give him the assurance that the definition Mr. Speaker, I move— in the Transkei Constitution Act makes it un­ necessary to include the words “acting chief’ That the Bill be now read a Second Time. in this clause. All the amendments contained in this Bill Clause put and agreed to. are designed to remedy certain deficiencies in the principal Act. None of the principles con­ House Resumed: tained in the principal Act is, however, affected by any of the proposed amendments, nor are Bill reported with an amendment. the amendments of a contentious nature. In regard to clause 1, I want to explain that FIRST REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE the present position is that the Marriage Aot, ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS 1961, does not apply to the territory of South West Africa. Marriages in that territory are Report adopted. regulated by a marriage ordinance of 1963. Both the Act and the Ordinance provide for UNAUTHORIZED EXPENDITURE the publication of banns of marriage in a (1966-’67) BILL church or for the publication of a notice of intention to marry, which has to be published Bill read a First, Second and Third time. in a magistrate’s or a Bantu Affairs Commis­ sioner’s office. PUBLIC SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL Both these measures also lay down that banns of marriage published outside the Re­ (Second Reading) public or the Territory in conformity with the law of the country concerned, shall be deemed ♦The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: to be banns of marriage published in either Mr. Speaker, I move— the Republic or the Territory, but no such pro­ vision was made in the principal Act in respect That the Bill be now read a Second Time. of notices of intention to marry. This matter 1217 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1218 is now being rectified. It is therefore being pro­ place other than those referred to in section 29 posed that section 16 of the principal Act, (2), will, as a rule, be invalid. There is, however, which deals with this matter, be replaced by a a difference of opinion as to whether a mar­ new section, in which provision is also being riage which necessarily had to be solemnized made now for a notice of a proposed marriage elsewhere, is valid. I have in mind, for exam­ published in any country outside the Republic ple, a marriage which has to be solemnized in in terms of the law of that country, to be re­ a hospital owing to the serious illness of one garded in the Republic as valid for the pur­ or both parties. There are also serious doubts poses of a marriage within the Republic. about the validity of, inter alia, the 35 mar­ The amendment will not only prevent mar­ riages solemnized in the Centenary Festival riages which, according to legal opinion, are Tent at Monument Hill on 15th December, invalid for technical reasons, but will also re­ 1938, because the provisions of the law which move obstacles for couples who intend to applied in the Transvaal in 1938 as to the marry. It will also cause marriages solemnized places in which marriages were to be solemn­ in the Republic and South West Africa to take ized were for all practical purposes the same place on a more uniform basis. It may be men­ as those of the Marriage Act, 1961. As a result, tioned that the Marriage Ordinance of South some of the couples whose marriages were West Africa has already been amended solemnized in the Centenary Festival Tent in accordingly. 1938 are not certain whether they are, in fact, In regard to clause 2 1 just want to say this. married. Some of them—and it seems as if Just as in the case of a notice of intention to many of the hon. members know them— marry published in the territory of South West already have grandchildren. There is uncer­ Africa, a special marriage licence issued in that tainty now as to whether their children or territory is invalid in the Republic. For the grandchildren were ever born legitimately. It same reasons as mentioned in respect of clause now appears to be fair and expedient that we 1, it is necessary that a special marriage licence should amend the Act in such a way as to re­ issued in that territory should be valid in the move the uncertainty existing in the minds of Republic, too for the purposes of a marriage. those couples so that there will be no doubt as to whether they were legally or illegally The Marriage Ordinance of South West married. Africa already recognizes special marriage licences issued in the Republic, and conse­ In order to remove all doubt and uncertainty quently there is no sound reason why the Re­ and to obtain the necessary statutory authority, public should not recognize special licences it is being proposed that section 29 of the prin­ issued in that territory for the purposes of a ciple Act, which relates to this matter, should marriage in the Republic. be replaced by a new section. In the new sec­ tion provision will be made for a marriage to Under the circumstances it is proposed that be solemnized in a place other than one of section 19 of the principal Act, which contains those presently laid down in the Act in the the provisions in respect of special marriage case of the serious long-standing illness of the licences, be amended by the addition of a sub­ parties. Secondly, provision will be made for section (7) in which specific provision is made declaring valid marriages solemnized in the for special marriage licences issued in South Orange Free State and the Transvaal prior to West Africa to be recognized for the purposes the commencement of the Marriage Act, 1961. of a marriage within the Republic. in any place other than those appointed by the Clause 3 is purely a consequential amend­ relevant marriage laws of the respective pro­ ment. In respect of clause 4 I want to mention vinces, as well as marriages which, by reason that in terms of section 29 (2) of the principal of the serious or long-standing illness of, or Act a marriage officer shall solemnize any mar­ serious bodily injury to, one or both of the riage in a church or other building used for parties, "'ere solemnized in a place other than religious service, or in a public office or private one of the prescribed places. dwelling-house. These provisions were purpose­ ly inserted in the Marriage Act at the time to Mr. Speaker. I trust that I have explained prevent marriages from being solemnized in the whole matter to the satisfaction of hon. all kinds of places which detract from the members and that the minor amendments con­ solemnity of a marriage, for example on skat­ tained in this Bill will receive the wholehearted ing rinks, in mines and in aeroplanes. The mar­ support of both sides of the House. riage of one couple was recently solemnized in a tent, while the marriage of another was Mr. L. G. MURRAY: Mr. Speaker, the solemnized on an uninhabited island in a river. hon. the Minister has given us the reasons for With reference to these occurrences the law ffie legislation which he has introduced this advisers expressed the opinion that in enacting afternoon. There are, however, one or two that article the legislature intended that mar­ points which arise out of this Bill and which I riages solemnized in places other than the should like to being to his notice. He has indi­ prescribed places should be invalid. Consider­ cated the necessity for some amendments to ing >he Act as a whole thev have found that, the provisions of the Act to deal with the in the first olace. the provisions thereof indi­ situation in South West Africa. I agree that cate prima facie that it was the intention that that is necessary. But if one looks at clause 1 such a marriage should be null and void. of the Bill which contains the proposed Thev have therefore come to the conclusion amendment to section 16 of the principal Act, that any marriage which is solemnized in any reference is made there to “a notice of inten­ 1219 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1220 tion to marry published in a country outside BIRTHS, MARRIAGES AND DEATHS the Union”. I should like to know what the REGISTRATION AMENDMENT BILL Minister has in mind in regard to the manner in which such a notice should be published. (Second Reading) We know that the normal procedure in the Republic and South West Africa is that the ♦The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: notice is posted in a landdrost office, or in the Mr. Speaker, I move— case of South West Africa in a commissioner’s office. But this clause goes beyond South West That the Bill be now read a Second Time. Africa and deals with a notice published in any place. It seems that there should be some The amendments contained in this Bill are not provision in this regard, by means perhaps of amendments which affect the principles of the the public display of the notice for a period of principal Act. Furthermore, the amendments three weeks as is the case in regard to notices are mainly of an administrative nature and are published in the Republic and South West aimed at making the implementation of the Africa. What form will the notice take in a provisions of the principal Act more effective country such as Great Britain or France? Is it and also at facilitating matters for the general contemplated that such a notice will be pub­ public. Consequently I want to refer briefly to lished in conformity with the laws of that par­ t te provisions contained in some of the ticular country. This seems to me to be what clauses. is intended. Clause 1 deals with the appointment of dis­ In regard to clause 4 which amends section trict registrars and assistant district registrars of 29 of the Act, we welcome the amendments births and deaths. As the position is at present, introduced by the hon. the Minister, namely district registrars and assistant district registrars to legalize marriages which take place in hos­ of births and deaths are designated by the pitals. The Minister has also referred to the Minister of the Interior or any person autho­ marriages which took place in the Orange Free rized thereto by him, at the request and re­ State some years ago, which also necessitated commendation of magistrates and Bantu Af­ the Act being amended. fairs commissioners. Where no district regis­ We on this side of the House support the trar has been designated, the magistrate of proposed amendments. I have noted the re­ such district will ex officio be the district regis­ strictions as to where marriages may legally trar, provided that if a Bantu Affairs commis­ take place. I therefore hope that those people sioner has been appointed for any such dis­ who are queueing to be the first to be married trict, he will ex officio be the district registrar on the moon will be dissuaded now that the in respect of Bantu and the magistrate will be marriages there will be illegal as far as we are district registrar in respect of persons of all concerned. other races. The designation of district registrars by the Minister, or by a person authorized thereto by ♦The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: him, involves delays and creates problems for Mr. Speaker, I wish to reply to the question magistrates. We have received complaints asked by the hon. member for Green Point in from the Department of Justice, both from respect of the notices mentioned in clause 1. within the Republic and the Department of Our intention is precisely what the hon. mem­ Justice in South West Africa. It is now being ber has inferred. In other words, notices fall­ envisaged to entrust magistrates and Bantu ing within the statutory provisions of other Affairs commissioners with the power to de­ countries will be recognized in this country as signate district and assistant district registrars, legal notices for marriages. The period of except in those districts where the Depart­ notice may differ. There may be countries ment is represented and where these functions which provide that the period of notice is will be carried out by the officers of the De­ tsree weeks, and there may be others in which partment. it is six weeks, and there may even be others where it is three months. But if the notice is To achieve this goal it is threfore being pro­ duly published in accordance with the statu­ posed that the relevant section of the principal tory provisions of that country, we shall re­ Act, namely section 3, be substituted by a new cognize it as a legitimate notice and we shall, section in which it is chiefly being provided that a magistrate may designate district regis­ for that reason, not delay or in any way try trars and assistant district registrars for his not to recognize such marriage. district from officers or employees of the De­ fit will, therefore, not only apply to South partment of Justice, with the exception of the West Africa, but to other countries beyond following districts: the Pretoria district, where our borders. Those notices of marriage must such officers .are designated by the registrar comply with the law of the country in which general or his employees, because it is a prin­ they are published. I hope that the position is cipal seat; a district where a regional repre­ sentative of the Department has his office, in clear in this regard. which case such regional representative may also designate registrars and assistant registrars Motion put and agreed to. from his staff that works under him in that region; and any district where a Bantu Affairs Bill read a Second Time. commissioner has been appointed. In the lat­ 1221 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1222 ter case he will appoint such persons from the added to follow subsection (3) of section 42 of staff working under him to register the births the principal Act; in terms of subsection (4) it and deaths of Bantu in that district. is provided that no birth certificate may be Clauses 2 and 4 should really be read to­ issued in respect of the birth of a person born gether. It may just be mentioned that, on or after 1st December, 1967, unless the race although provision is made in the birth in­ description of that person and of his parents formation form for a description of the race has been checked, as prescribed. I think this is of t te child and of its parents, there is no de­ only logical. finition of the various race groups in the Now we come to clause 3. Section 9 of the Births, Marriages and Deaths Registration Aliens Aot, 1937 (Act No. 1 of 1937) provides Act, referred to as the principal Act. For the that if any person who at any time bore or was purposes of the former Act classifications in known by a particular surname assumes or terms of the Population Registration Act do describes himself by or passes under any other not apply either. Section 5 of this Act pro­ surname which he had not assumed or by vides that the children are to be classified ac­ which he had not described himself or under cording to the classification of their parents. which he had not passed before 1st January, We merely want to put this into operation, 1937, he shall be guilty of an offence unless because there are no reasons why this should the State President has authorized him to not be done as early as possible in the life of assume that other surname. a child, so that any inconvenience, doubt or unpleasantness which may follow if this were It often happens that, owing to circum­ not done, may be eliminated for the child in stances beyond their control, children who advance. For this reason it is being proposed were born after that date are known by or tiat classification in terms of the Population pass under a surname other than the one in Registration Act be applied for the purposes which their births were registered. Cases of of the registration of births by inscribing the this nature include in particular children who parents’ classification in terms of that Act on were brought up under the surname of their the birth information form and determining step-fathers .and illegitimate children who pass the race of the child in terms of the provisions under the surname of the man whom their of that Act or any proclamation made in terms mother subsequently married. The only alter­ of that Act. But in order to prevent the issuing native for such children is to apply, in terms of birth certificates on which the child’s race is of the above-mentioned section, for permission shown incorrectly, it is being proposed further to adopt that surname. In terms of the provi­ that no birth certificates in respect of children sions of the section publicity has to be given born after 1st December, 1967, may be issued to this. Notices are to be published in local unless the registrar general of births, marriages newspapers so as to ascertain whether there and deaths has confirmed the race description are any objections. It is an expensive proce­ of the parents and of the child. We chose that dure. The costs involved vary between ap­ date because the Act had come into force as proximately R50 to R60, and this does not from that date. All registrars and assistant re­ even include the fees of attorneys. In most gistrars of births have already been instructed cases such children are not aware of these to determine or inscribe the race description circumstances and owing to the confidential of the child in accordance with the classifica­ and intimate circumstances the parents are not tion and the regulations of the Act. prepared to give publicity to this. In other The amendments which are being envisaged oases the persons concerned do not have the in this regard, are as follows: After section 7 financial means to afford the costs involved in of the principal Act an additional section 7A having this published in the newspapers. In is being inserted in terms of which the regis­ some cases this state of affairs only comes to trar general is being authorized to amend on the knowledge of the person concerned when the original birth information form the race he has already married and registered his description of any person born before 1st children under the other surname. That is why December, 1967, and of his parents, to corres­ it is being deemed advisable and just that re­ pond with the classification in terms of the lief be brought to such persons. If such a per­ Population Registration Act. son has in fact applied and obtained per­ mission to adopt another surname, there is no Furthermore, in respect of any person born legal authority for inscribing that surname in on or after 1st December, 1967, the registrar (he births register and issuing certificates in has to ascertain what classification has been that surname. assigned in terms of the above Act to such person and to each parent of such person, and In order to prevent embarrassment and if the race description of such person or of his hardship it is therefore considered to be essen­ parents differs on the birth information form tial t-o make provision for the necessary in­ from that which was assigned to them in scription in a births register in cases where a terms of .the said Act, the race description on person has been granted permission in terms of section 9 of Act No. 1 of 1937 to adopt the birth information form should be amended another surname and where an illegitimate to correspond with the classification. child or a step-child is known by the surname In addition no birth certificate may be of the man whom his mother married subse­ issued unless it has been checked. For that quently, provided that that man consents to reason an additional subsection (4) is being this being donei 1223 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1224

To effect these envisaged amendments it is that the power which is now given in the case now being proposed that after subsection 8 of of magisterial districts for the magistrate to the principal Act an additional subsection 8A appoint a member of his staff to officiate as be inserted in which it is specifically provided the district registrar, is really giving legal that an alteration of a surname, in the circum­ effect to the practice which is being adopted at stances as explained, may be inscribed in a this moment. I understand that the position is births register and that birth certificates may that somebody in the magistrate’s office at the be issued in that surname. present time is delegated to be responsible for I have already dealt with clause 4 in con­ this work, and that man now merely gets offi­ junction with clause 2, and no further obser­ cial status in terms of the Act in fulfilling that vations are necessary. duty. I take it that the final responsibility will As regards clause 5, up to 31st December, be removed from the shoulders of the magis­ 1963, the births of “Indian immigrants” were trate concerned. registered in terms of the Indian Immigration Sir, we have some difficulty with clause 2. Law, 1891 (Law No. 25 of 1891 of Natal). The proposed section 7A (1) provides that the That law was repealed by the Indian Laws registrar-general may amend the registration Amendment Act, 1963 (Act No. 68 of 1963), of the birth of any person by the substitution and in terms of section 44 of the Births, Mar­ of any inscription in respect of the race or in riages and Deaths Registration Act, 1963 (Act respect of the classification under the Popula­ No. 81 Of 1963), the latter Act was made tion Registration Act. “Substitution” appears applicable by proclamation to the registration to imply that there can be a complete erasure of the births, marriages and deaths of the of the inscription which appeared in that cer­ said Indians, with effect from 1st January, tificate prior to the substitution of the new 1964. inscription. It seems that that should not be The birth information forms which were done. If there is an amendment, as this is prescribed in terms of Law No. 25 of 1891 intended to be, then let us use the word (Natal), did not make any provision for in­ “amend” instead of “substitute”. Let us pro­ formation concerning the surname of either vide that he can amend the record so as to the child or the parents. In fact, in accordance show that there has been a change, following with Indian custom an Indian does not have on the classification of the person concerned, a surname in the Western sense. However, in which is not in accordance with the method by the course of their development many Indians which it has been registered. I do not know assumed surnames and the Protector of Indian whether the hon. the Minister has in mind Immigrants, who administered Law No. 25 of that there should be a complete erasure of 1891, inscribed such surnames in the births what is then in the register and a substitution, register of the persons concerned. or whether in this instance there should not However, there is no legal authority for the be merely an amendment in so far as the insertion of surnames in such births registers, register is concerned. and in order to afford “Indian immigrants” Then there is another difficulty which arises the opportunity to cause to be inscribed in and that is in connection with subsection (2) their births registers or marriage registers the (a). This directs the registrar-general, as soon surnames which they assumed and by which as practicable after the receipt in his office they are known, it is proposed to amend Act a birth information form in respect of the No. 81 of 1963—in other words, the Births, birth of a person bom on or after the 1st Marriages and Deaths Registration Act—so as December. 1967, to ascertain what classifica­ to make provision for this. tion has been assigned in terms of the Popula­ tion Registration Act to such person. Sir, one Although the registrar-general is at present, visualizes the situation that a birth is regis­ in terms of section 1 of Act No. 81 of 1963, tered and within a matter of a fortnight the the custodian of the records of registrations registrar-general receives a notification form, which were effected in terms of the former and he must then find out how that baby has Act, he has no authority to effect any improve­ been classified. I wonder whether in fact that ments, alterations or additions to such records. is the practical approach. Is there in fact a In these circumstances it is therefore being classification before the birth has been regis­ proposed that an additional section 443 be in­ tered; can there be one under the population serted in the principal Act after section 44; register, or must the birth not be registered section 44A provides (a) the surname of any and the classification then dealt with and an Indian whose birth or marriage has been regis­ amendment made, if an amendment is neces­ tered in terms of the Indian Immigration Law, sary, under the Population Registration Act? 1891 (Natal), may be inscribed in that regis­ The only instance where one can visualize the ter, and (b) that certain provisions of the possibility of a classification being assumed, Births, Marriages and Deaths Registration Act. would be under the inviolate rules which were 1963, are applicable in relation to the registers introduced into the Population Registration kept in terms of the former Act. Act last year. That is that if one parent is Mr. L. G. MURRAY: Sir, we on this side Coloured, then the child shall be deemed to of the House support this measure. There are, be Coloured. While one realizes that these however, one or two matters I wish to raise cases must be checked, I am wondering with the hon. the Minister. The first one is whether this is not putting the chicken before 1225 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1226 the egg, because here the registrar-general which is now contemplated—and one wonders goes along with a new birth to the population whether that is going to be sufficiently publi­ registrar who does not know about the exist­ cized so as to protect women from losing rights ence of that child, and says, “What is the upon remarriage. One wonders whether these classification of the child?” The Act only re­ different courses of procedure should not be quires a classification of the child when it incorporated in some way in the application reaches the age of 16. I believe that this is not form which must be used under this particular intended to apply to the new-born babe but to section, when it becomes law. In other words, each parent of such person and that the when a person applies to the Department for checking up should only be done so far as the a form to adopt this procedure, it should be parents are concerned at that stage because clearly stated on that form for all to see that there is no legal classification of the child. Sir, a change of name by this method does not we may have more to say about this in the create the relationship of father and child, Committee Stage, but I raise the matter at except in the one instance where it is a legiti­ this stage, not that we are opposed to the mation of a child born out of wedlock. I principle that the registration of births should wonder whether that might not meet the danger conform to other laws which are applicable which presents itself here and which might and in this case should conform to the provi­ lead to hardship in cases where a marriage is sions of the Population Registration Act be­ entered .into in all good faith but where there cause it is the law of the land and it would be is subsequently a change of mind in regard to unacceptable if the one did not conform with responsiblity for the children. Sir, we will the other. support the Bill at the second reading, but Then as regards clause 3, which contained may have further comments at the Committee the proposed section 8A, one appreciates the stage. motives which have prompted the hon. the Minister to introduce .this measure. It is a ♦The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I great simplification where a child born out of just want to call attention to a few points marriage is subsequently legitimized by the because it may perhaps shorten the discussion marriage of the mother and father and that in the Committee Stage. The point of de­ the child should then, merely by departmental parture in this regard is that in respect of the procedure, assume the name of the father powers we propose to assign in this Bill to without the undue publicity and the costs magistrates. Bantu Affairs commissioners or attached to the publication of a notice of in­ regional officers, we now want to legalize in tention to change the name. But there is an­ fact what they are already doing as a rule, other aspect of this amendment which goes but this is not quite so. They are making re­ much wider than to deal with that situation commendations, but every recommendation only. I want to draw the attention of the hon. that is made by a magistrate in respect of a the Minister, if I may to the circumstances vacancy must, as the Act reads, be proposed which may arise where a widow or a divorcée by the Minister personally, and 'that takes a with minor children intends entering into a great deal of time. Now we say that the magis­ second or further marriage. She might well be trate does, after all, know his district and his persuaded to do that by the protestations of officers—why then this redundancy? He is re­ the future husband that he will take over the sponsible as it is. because where a district children of the deceased or divorced father as registrar has not been appointed he automa- his own. She may well lose rights to a pension cally acts as district registrar, and our magis­ or she may lose rights to income from the trates are after all trained and responsible State or other sources which might be provided people and so are the Bantu Affairs commis­ for in a will, or she may in fact lose her right sioners. We need not think that we are grant­ to claim maintenance from her former hus­ ing these powers and effecting this amendment band. She then enters into the marriage and because they abused this office in the past. this procedure only is adopted, that is to say, This office was not abused in the past, and a formal application for a change of the names for that reason we had delays. That is my first of the children into the name of the second reply. husband who has said in all good faith that he Secondly, the hon. member for Green Point will look after them. But if that second hus­ had an objection. He says that a child is not band were to change his mind after a year or classified at birth, but when he is registered the two and desert this woman, she has no legal inscription on the birth information form, by claim upon him whatsoever insofar as the the parents or whoever, always specifies the maintenance of the children is concerned, names of the parents. In practice this is the although she may have lost rights by entering case to-day. The other day I spoke to two into this further marriage. But she would have young men, employed in the Public Service, of that claim if the second husband had given whom I had heard by chance. In both cases it legal effect to his intention to look after the was the birth of a first child. One was in Pre­ toria and the other in Cape Town. I asked children by in fact adopting them under the one of them whether, when he had the birth adoption laws. There are these three methods of his child registered, he did so himself or of changing the name—the procedure of adop­ sent somebody else to do it for him. He said tion. the procedure of publication and appli­ that he himself had done it. I asked him what cation for a change of name and the procedure had happened on his arrival at the district 1227 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1228

registrar’s. I think it was in November. Then race as entered on this form is in conformity he said that he had fetched his wife’s identity with the provisions of the Act. card—on which her race was stated—at the Now we come to the surnames. Here we hospital. He had his card with him and all give the Registrar the right to scratch out ihe registrar of births asked him, was “This is something, but there is no erasure as such; he your name and that is your wife’s name, and just has to change it and then initial it, with the race of your child is White?” I asked the date, so that you can always know that whether they had not asked to see his identity this was the name, and this is how it was card to make sure whether it corresponded . erore and this is how he changed it, so that with his race classification. He said no. We one can check up to see whether he did not know that it often happens that people them­ make a mistake. It is not a question of era­ selves do not go to register the birth of their sure. children but that they ask a friend or some­ body else to do it for them. All we are saying Mr. L. G. MURRAY: In the Afrikaans it here, is this: In view of the fact that a birth says “verander”, and in the English it says information form is one of the forms or re­ "substitute”. turns used by the Secretary for the Depart­ ment, inter alia, to do classifications, he may *The MINISTER: We understand both classify incorrectly if due regard is not had to English and Afrikaans so well that we under­ what is stated on the form as regards indicating stand exactly what we mean. We do not want what the parents’ race is. Surely we know what to split hairs about words. But I can assure the provisions of the Population Registration hon. members that in the Other Place I pro­ Act are. If the race was stated differently, and mised during the Committee Stage that 1 if, for instance, it was stated that he was white euld see to it that any alterations in the when one parent was non-white and the other birth information forms would, as regards the white, then one knows that it is wrong. If he race of the child, be duly initialled and dated was stated to be a Coloured or a Bantu and by the registrar-general and the district regis­ both parents had been classified as White, then trar. In other words, they will have to consult o.ne also knows that it is wrong, and then one their records and make sure, because, after simply sets it right. As one inscribes it one all, they do have the records. But if the altera­ simply makes sure. tions are made. I want proof that they were made by the officers, and that they were not simply inscribed by the person himself. I can Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: So you can use it give the assurance that those instructions have as a double check on the population register. already been issued, and I envisage an amend­ ment of the regulations in terms of this Act tThe MINISTER: No. there is really so that no errors may creep in when altera­ nothing in the Population Registration Act as tions are made. such, if you do not want to apply it. I would When we come to surnames and the rights like to see the day arrive when we make much of children, the surname of a child may be more use of our population registration, and altered, but it will not be erased. I think that that the identity card is used for many more it is merely an imaginary danger the hon. purposes and contains many more facts which member for Green Point is seeing when he the State really needs, so that it can be a mentions the example of a child who is not real book of life, as it should have been when adopted by his stepfather, for instance; he it was introduced. I do not want to go into merely assumes that surname, and in view of that matter now, but I can give the bon. mem­ the fact that he assumes that surname and ber the assurance that during this Session still that an alteration can be made in the birth all hon. members will hear more about this, certificate, he may perhaps forfeit bequests he not in the way of legislation that I am going could have received from his legitimate or to introduce at this stage, but I want to take natural father. But the inscription of the new them ino my confidence in regard to the name will not replace the other one in this planning and the investigations which are sense, because the other one will still be there he:ng done. Much thought has been given to so that there will be sufficient proof to the the subject. I think that after everything has effect that this had been his former surname been explained to them. hon. members will and that his present surname was the one he have no objection, because this is not a poli­ had subsequently adopted. This can only tical matter. It is only designed for better take place with the consent of the stepfather. government and for many other good reasons But if the stepfather wants to do everything that I do not want to go into now. But I will for him. this will only be so in the circum­ see to it that hon. members get an oppor­ stances where such a child has nothing. There tunity. before I introduce a Bill, to get at the are such stepfathers. But if he knows that he real meaning of it all. This will also conform cannot care for the child in the way his own with what I have in mind and with the wishes father would have cared for him, and he can­ of my Department and of the State. Why not accept responsibility to that extent be­ should there be a classification of parents? If cause the child is not his own, then he will the child cannot conform, when his race is not give his consent in the first place. One being filled in on that form, with the regula­ does not want this poor child to have a sur­ tions and the provisions of the Act as it stands, name which comes to his knowledge for the you have purposely neglected to see that the first time on the day he wants to get married. 1229 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1230

This may cause inconvenience and grief. We small distilling units is not normally approved. only want to help in this respect, but we do Normally it does not comply with the stan­ not want to do so in such a way that he dards set. loses something by i.t; we want to help him Wine farmers and co-operative associations so that he may only stand to gain, with less of wine farmers are still, in some cases, under­ trouble and expense. That is why I think that taking the distillation of their own wine. Pro­ if we study this Bill well, we ought to have ducers in regions which are situated at further no fundamental objections to it. Therefore I distances from the premises of distillers in the think that we might as well resume our further Western Province are doing this particularly discussion of this matter at the Committee with a view .to reducing the quantity by re­ Stage. moving water and certain other constituents from the wine so that a smaller volume may Motion put and agreed to be transported. The quantity is decreased in this way by approximately 87£ per cent. This Bill read a Second Time. distillation is being done by means of rela­ tively small kettles, the so-called “stripping WINE AND SPIRITS CONTROL AMEND­ column”, and the saving on transportation MENT BILL costs makes such a “pre-distillation”, as it may be called, a paying proposition for the pro­ *The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRI­ ducer. In other words, it is being done for the CULTURE: I move— sole purpose of economizing on transporta­ tion costs, an item which can sometimes be That the Bill be now read a Second Time. very high, particularly when the products have to be transported over long distances. The Wine and Spirits Control Act, Act No. 38 However, the wholesale trader or distiller of 1956. which was originally placed on the buying such a product is compelled to re-distil Statute Book as Act No. 5 of 1924, deals in it before he is able to obtain approval for it to the main with the marketing of and control be utilized from the Government Brandy over distilling wine, i.e. wine which is the pro­ Board. He must therefore incur the same costs duce of the vine and which is intended for dis­ in regard to distilling as if he had received only tillation into brandy or other spirits. It is wine. On the other hand the producers have therefore not wine which is produced for con­ not incurred the costs of distillation with the sumption in the form of good wines, whether purpose of receiving compensation of any these are table wines, sherry or port. kind for it because they realize only too well The Wine and Spirits Control Act, inter alia, that they are not delivering a product which also creates the machinery whereby the price will be approved for use without distillation. which is fixed for distilling wine can be made The wholesale trader or distiller wants to enforceable. This is the minimum price which obtain this product, but cannot pay the distil­ distillers of brandy and spirits have to pay ling costs on that product if they have to for such wine when they purchase or obtain incur again the costs of re-distilling it. The it from wine farmers or co-operative associa­ cost of such a re-distilling process is, for all tions of wine farmers. practical purposes, precisely the same as it Such co-operative associations and wine would have been if the wine could have been farmers themselves undertake the distilling of distilled into approved spirits in the first place. their distilling wine, and sell the spirits thus obtained directly to the trade. In terms of sec­ The new clause 2 (4) (a) of the Bill, there­ tion 2 (4) (a) of the Act such producers are fore, also makes provision for a proviso which however prevented from selling spirits at a authorizes the sale of such spirits, in certain price which is less than the price based on circumstances, without the payment of the the price at which the K.W.V. sells distilling costs of distilling as part of the minimum price wine of the same vintage, to thich the cost of being compulsory. In other words, it will be distilling has already been added, to wholesale possible to sell such spirits at a price for the traders or distillers. equivalent quantity of distilling wine it re­ Where spirits are obtained from producers presents. The wholesale trader or distiller buy­ the addition of the distilling costs is therefore ing such raw spirits is not benefited in any way compulsory and must, according to a principle because he has to bear the costs of distilling which was already laid down in the 1924 Act, himself. be paid bv the purchaser, who may be either Such sale will only be authorized if the rele­ a wholesale trader or a distiller. vant producer convinces the K.W.V. that the In terms of the then requirements all spirits Government Brandy Board has refused to could be utilized for drinking purposes with­ approve and certify the spirits in question, and out reservation. Since then, however, provi­ the K.W.V. is therefore satisfied that the trader sion has been made to the effect that spirits who bought the spirits will have to re-distill it and brandy, the produce of the vine, must in order to obtain approval and certification first be approved by the Government Brandy thereof. Board before it may be utilized for drinking No evasion of the minimum price can occur purposes. The requirements laid down for the therefore, and all that is intended in the pro­ approval of spirits are such that the product posed amendment therefore is to adapt the Act which i.t is possible to obtain by means of to altered circumstances. 1231 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1232

•Mr. D. M. STREICHER: The hon. the any other matter. This factual position must Deputy Minister has given an exceptionally be made very clear because it does not exist dear exposition of this Bill—in complete con­ only for the sake of uniformity, but also for trast to what we experienced yesterday after­ the sake of peace and order in our country, so noon. If it had not been for the fact that we as to prevent conflicting attitudes from being had from time to time discussed this matter adopted when dealing with the Bantu in our with the Department it would have been im­ cities and towns. Many town councils and offi­ possible for us to understand what the second cials are toying with the idea that the Central reading of the Bill . . . Government is arrogating rights to itself in adopting this point of view, while in actual •The ACTING SPEAKER: Order! But this fact the Government is not presumptuous at has nothing to do with the Bill. all and is not arrogating a new right to istelf, but is merely undertaking the proper fulfil­ •Mr. D. M. STREICHER: I know, Mr. ment of its duty as laid down by the Constitu­ Speaker. But I just wanted to tell the hon. the tion. The matter is considered to be of such Deputy Minister that we appreciate it, and we importance that the State deemed it advisable want to congratulate him on presenting this to protect by legislation the chief official of Bill in such a clear way. We hope and trust Bantu Administration, who has to fulfil a that his colleagues will follow his example. As double function, namely on the one hand to far as the amendment which the hon. the implement national policy and on the other Deputy Minister is introducing in this Bill is hand to give loyal service to his employer. concerned, we on this side of the House have The legislation provides that he be licensed by no objection to it. the Minister of Bantu Administration and De­ velopment. The licence granted to him affords Motion put and agreed to. him the protection of the Minister and .the Department in case he should come into con­ Bill read a Second Time. flict in certain respects with his employer, the town council, in the course of the lawful exe­ Precedence given to private members’ busi­ cution of his duties. The chief official is a very ness. important link between the Central Govern­ ment and the local authorities. BANTU ADMINISTRATION BY LOCAL I also want to say at once that I am able to AUTHORITIES speak with the greatest appreciation of the co­ operation of by far the majority of the ad­ •Mr. G. P. C. BEZU1DENHOUT: Mr. ministrators of Bantu Affairs in the Republic. Speaker, 1 wish to move— I have personal experience of the willingness of these officials to co-operate in the imple­ That this House requests the Government mentation of Government policy. I can also to consider the advisability of introducing attest to the fact that with the odd exceptions legislation to provide that, wherever con­ —and here it is usually the larger town coun­ sidered desirable, the control and manage­ cils—these officials meticulously and correctly ment of Bantu Administration by local interpret Government policy to their town authorities be taken over by a board or councils. As far as the town councils are con­ boards under the Department of Bantu Ad­ cerned, certain powers have been delegated to ministration and Development. them in connection with Bantu Affairs in this country. All the cities and towns are only con­ If we examine the urban areas legislation, we cerned with executive activites. It is the duty observe that since 1923. also in the various of the urban authorities to implement the amendments and in their subsequent consoli­ policy of the country, not to assist in formu­ dation, this important basic principle is clearly lating basic policy for themselves or for the and unambiguously stated, namely that the country. They must implement the policy: State determines the policy and that the local they must not attempt to formulate policy. authorities assist in its application. We often This is a very clear principle that was laid hear the accusation that the Central Govern­ down in our legislation from the very begin­ ment is interfering in municipal affairs when it ning, namely that it will only create confusion intervenes and reprimands, reproves, or ad­ and disorder in the country if Bantu Affairs monishes local authorities that are not pre­ become subject to a diversity of policies. It pared to carry out the national policy. To-day simply cannot happen that in one city the I want to make it very clear once more that Bantu is controlled on a certain basis and that the State is the body responsible for the policy in another city he is controlled on a different in the field of Bantu Affairs. The Central basis, or that the policy of the Central Government is not interfering, but only doing Government is implemented in a piecemeal its duty when it issues instructions in this con­ fashion. We cannot allow a diversity of nection and carries out its supervisory func­ courses of action to develop. tion. When local authorities are not doing I should like to emphasize very strongly their duty in respect of Bantu legislation, the Government must intervene. The independ­ that the white man and the Bantu in South ence of the local authorities in respect of Africa cannot develop a way of life if ideas other matters is not affected. The local autho­ are seized upon left and right. A proper plan rities can still act independently with regard to of action must be followed. Our deeds must 1233 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1234

be systematic and then there will be mutual tion with levies, so that businessmen would understanding. also have to contribute to many essential ser­ Both local authorities and officials in charge vices which had to be provided to the non- of Bantu Administration must realize that the Whites in the Bantu townships, and think how policy which forms the basis of their work the businessmen were opposed to it and were comprises a comprehensive programme. Sepa­ not prepared to make their contribution. rate development is not simply a matter of When we look at the beautiful housing disconnected ideas and disconnected plans. schemes in our Bantu townships to-day, we One cannot simply make a departure here and find that the United Party are the first to boast a concession there. Moreover, a town council of them. They conduct overseas visitors to cannot simply be allowed to go its own way. the townships and say: “This is what we have No. Concessions may sometimes appear to be done for the non-Whites in this country.” Just very superficial to the town council or to the think of the opposition we experienced when local official. It may be felt that local condi­ we began with the site and service scheme. tions can simply be adapted to it, but it is the Not one of the local authorities controlled by duty of the State, when concessions have to be the United Party was in favour of it, with the made, to consider those concessions very care­ exception of the Town Council of Benoni. fully and to see what the consequences of Not one of them supported it. What happened those concessions would be. That is why we when the Town Council of Benoni accepted find so many town councils declaring to-day the National Party policy? Shortly afterwards that the Government is very unreasonable be­ it also became Nationalist. cause they were only asking for a small con­ cession, which was not granted. They ask, If we consider the ethnic grouping of Bantu “What difference would such a small conces­ under the various local authorities—how did sion really make?” But they have not con­ they not fight it! And to-day? Does one still sidered carefully how that concession would hear of faction fights and large-scale murder affect the country as a whole. over the week-ends in our Bantu townships? The figures of the policy of separate d e v e l­ Or has there been peace and quiet since eth­ opment extend far, and reach deep into the nic grouping was introduced? How the Op­ living circumstances of people: to make them position fought us when we placed the loca­ happy, to help prevent clashes, and to bring tions in the air legislation on the Statute Book! peace and order. The National Party can One would have thought that we were doing boast that it has brought peace and order the greatest injustice to the Bantu. But to-day among the various race groups in this multi­ the City Council of Cape Town is the city racial country, despite the wilful and malevo­ council that most laments the fact that it was lent opposition from the United Party town not properly implemented. They are now cry­ councils in the past 20 years. We have ing over Sea Point. As soon as they apply achieved this in spite of the opposition of offi­ that legislation drastically, there will be a great cials who have not done their duty, and in improvement. spite of selfish businessmen who wanted to We placed this legislation on the Statute exploit the Bantu, and of United Party town Book and made it very clear that the local councils that only wanted to make political authorities only had to implement it and that capital out of the matter and were not con­ the officials were there only to interpret the cerned about the welfare and progress of the law. We find, however, that the policy of the Bantu. If we cast back our thoughts to what Government has been wilfully obstructed in has happened in the past 20 years, if we recall the past year, and even because officials were to mind the abuse, the opposition and the too lax to implement the legislation. I do not stirring up of suspicion among the Bantu in want to single out only one town council to­ the Republic of South Africa and abroad, if we think of the legislation which the Govern­ day. I even want to haul the Bloemfontein ment has placed on the Statute Book for the City Council over the coals. Here, in the heart sole purpose of establishing peace and order of the Free State, we also find that obstruc­ in our fatherland, we can be filled with pride tion. According to Die Volksblad of 30th at what has taken place these past 20 years. April, 1963, Colonel Vermeulen said that it Just recall to mind the tremendous opposi­ was his impression that after 9 p.m. there were tion we encountered when legislation was more Bantu than Whites in Bloemfontein placed on the Statute Book in order to clear (translation)— up slums and squatter camps. You ask, where? Just consider how the opposition fought the “What chance do the Whites have of de­ legislation in connection with Cato Manor and Sophiatown. Think of the old Germiston loca­ fending themselves if trouble should occur?” tion, the whole of the Witwatersrand area, Colonel Vermeulen, District Commandant Port Elizabeth and East London, and think of Police in Bloemfontein, said. He added how they are still fighting the legislation in that he had already written to the municipal that connection. But in spite of the opposition non-White Affairs Management Board and from the City Council of Johannesburg, this had asked what it intended doing in this Government has piloted the legislation connection. “But I for my part, am not go­ through. Think of the time when Dr. Ver- ing to sit still. I am going to carry out the woerd put through his legislation in connec­ law.” 1235 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1236

A colonel of the Police Force says that the partment know nothing about the urban legislation is there and that he is going to im­ Bantu. But this same official has to be licensed plement it. But he continues— by the Minister. I say it is disgraceful. It is such utterances and actions on the part of “There is talk of an alarming increase in irresponsible officials that are getting us into burglary. That is correct. It is caused by the hot water to-day and causing unnecessary sus­ unlawful admittance of Bantu into white picion among the Bantu in their townships. residential areas at night. The only reason What will happen if the policy is not deter­ why Bantu wander around in white residen­ mined by the Central Government? A certain tial areas at night, is to look for a place to Mr. A. J. Cutten had the following to say. I sleep.” concede that he is an independent city coun­ cillor of Johannesburg. But do you know what Here we have a local authority which is not he wanted? “Direct representation on the doing its duty, which is not carrying out the Johannesburg City Council for Johannesburg law. Now the Chief of Police has to act when Natives by at least four Native City Coun­ the inhabitants of that city complain that cillors, sitting in the council chamber, was burglary is on the increase. But there will be urged by Mr. A. J. Cutten, an independent no more burglary if this local authority carries city councillor.” Does this city councillor out its duty. realize what would have happened if we had A head official of the Durban City Council, permitted five non-Whites to sit in the Johan­ Mr. Borquin, is only busy creating confusion nesburg City Council to determine the policy instead of carrying out his duty as laid down for the future of this country? Mr. Speaker, in the Constitution of the Republic of South can you imagine in what chaos and confusion Africa. He does not accept the legislation. the Republic of South Africa would have been Here it is written that— to-day? Do you realize what the consequences would have been if we had allowed a man Durban’s Director of Bantu Administra­ unbridled expression of his ideas? No. That tion, Mr. S. Borquin, criticizes some of the is why it was so important that our Constitu­ provisions of the Bantu Laws Amendment tion should provide that only the Central Bill in a detailed report to the City Council Government must have the power to deter­ of Durban. mine the policy of this country. But I want to go further. We find that even after the Instead of doing his duty, he is creating con­ legislation in connection with locations in the fusion there. Surely he was appointed to inter­ air was passed, the then Minister of Bantu pret the law properly to his local authority Administration had to issue a warning in 1962. and not to express his own opinion on it. Just Under the heading “Bantu still teeming in the remember. Mr. Speaker, that these officials are city’s locations in the air” in Die Vaderland licensed. They are protected by the law. At of 7th August, 1962, we read the following the last congress held at George, and at which (translation)— the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Ad­ ministration and Education was present, Mr. About 143,355 Bantu are still living in P. W. A. Roller asked for a freer hand for the white residential areas of Johannesbug, administrators. He had the audacity to say the and almost one out of every three of them following (translation)— is an unlawful resident. This maladministra­ tion by the Johannesburg City Council was With all due respect to the persons in largely responsible for the announcement Pretoria who make the laws, one cannot yesterday evening in Durban by Mr. M. D. but feel that they have no personal know­ C. de Wet Ne'l, Minister of Bantu Adminis­ ledge or experience of urban Bantu ad­ tration and Development, that a stricter for­ ministration, or of the hardship and bitter­ mula was being planned for locations in the ness which are often caused by the legisla­ air. tion which they draft. Legislation in this connection did exist, but Is it not presumptuous to say such a thing at the Johannesburg City Council was not pre­ an important congress of administrators from pared to apply it. What do we find to-day? over the length and breadth of the Republic? Mr. Cuyler says in a report: “City of Gold What does he think for one moment he has allows Bantu laws to fail”. He adds (transla­ achieved by that? Does he think he has tion)— brought about better co-operation between himself and the Department of Bantu Ad­ If the proposed new Bantu legislation is ministration? Is he aware of the tremendous not once again frustrated by the mal­ discord he is sowing, not only as an adminis­ administration of the Johannesburg City trator of a very important local authority, Council, the measure can promote better Johannesburg, but what does he think is the race relations betwen White and non-White. effect on the Bantu in the urban locations who must look up to him, and the Minister who has to care for the Bantu and to plan This is what Mr. Eben Cuyler, leader of the their future and their welfare. Here an official National Party in the City Council, said a declares that the Minister and his entire De­ while ago. He went on to say— 1237 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1238

As a result of the failure to apply influx of obstinate city councillors and wilful business­ control properly, there are to-day many men frustrating our policy. The United Party more Bantu in the city than there are em­ does not think of the future. It only thinks of ployment opportunities. Has the time not the present. As long as it can derive economic pernaps come for the State and the Govern­ advantage, all is well. It is of little concern to ment to undertake the implementation and members of the United Party if a non-white application of their own laws? proletariate is developing in our cities which will present the greatest threat imaginable to We find a similar report under the heading our white civilization. I want to say this to the “Government must take over Soweto” (trans­ hon. the Minister to-day: The people outside lation— are demanding that action be taken in this con­ nection and they are saying that this action "It has now become urgently necessary must be taken quickly-^the more drastic that for the Government to take over the Bantu action, the better, because we are sick and tired residential area of Soweto so that the Bantu of having the policy of the National Party there can be removed from the political obstructed. We will definitely not tolerate it struggle,” a member of the Johannesburg any longer. City Council, Mr. Carel Venter, said this morning in tne Budget debate of the Coun­ cil. Mr. T. G. HUGHES: Mr. Speaker, this motion by the hon. member for Brakpan is, of He adds— course, in keening with the thinking and the policy of this Government, i.e. to interfere more “Present conditions cannot continue. We and more in all spheres of Bantu administra­ can no longer allow Johannesburg to handi­ tion. They seem to want to control and regu­ cap the Government and our country. late the life of the Bantu no matter where he Soweto must get its own local authority to may be. We, of course, have opposed the en­ ensure that sound policies are applied croachment of this Government on the rights there.” Mr. Venter referred to the sound of municipalities to administer, according to manner in which the Resettlement Board . . . the law. the Pantu in their own areas. Because of our attitude in the past I wish to move the following amendment: That is the Resettlement Board established by this Government— To omit all the words after “That” and to ■ . . was running matters in the areas under substitute “this House, befeving that local its control, while the Johannesburg City authorities with their specialized knowledge Council was only using the Bantu as a of local conditions are best qualified to ad­ wonderful political football and was not minister Bantu affairs in their own areas, de­ administering the areas under its control plores the Government's continual encroach­ efficiently. ment on their rights in this field”. The hon. member who moved this motion I say here to-day that the National Party has has given us a political harangue as to whv in the past 20 years brought about peace and this has become necessary. I must say that I order among the Whites and the Blacks in have never yet heard so many inconsistences Sou'h Africa. That is what we have brought from any member proposing a motion from about in this multi-racial country of ours. And the Government side. He started off by saying we are on the eve of carrying through success­ that “die Staat bepaal die beleid”. That is quite fully the second phase of our policy of sepa­ right, and we all agree with him. It is common rate development. We have influx properly un­ cause that the State deternrnes policy. The der control. We have brought about segrega­ State also lays down by regulation and other tion between Whites and non-Whites. Now the means how its policy will be earned out and Government’s greatest and most responsible certain bodies exist to carry out that poliev. task begins, and that is to cause the Bantu to In the past the local authorities have been re­ flow back to their homelands in an orderly sponsible for this and we hope that they will way. We are already finding that the United continue to be responsible for it. This is tradi­ Party and its United Party-orientated city tional of South African life. It is not some­ councils are trying to obstruct us. We are thing new or something which the United Party already noticing the strong opposition on their thought of. It is traditional that the municipali­ part and on the part of certain businessmen in ties undertake the administration of their own connection with the Physical Planning Act affairs in their own areas. He also went on to which is on the Statute Book. say that the head official is licensed by the I want to ask the hon. the Minister this after­ Government and that he gets protection from noon not to hesitate to take firm action against the Minister should he run foul of the munici­ any city council which is not prepared to carrv pality. That we know too. Sir. The Govern­ out this policy and against any city council ment licenses these senior officals who are re­ which is obstructing this policy. We do not want sponsible for carrying out the policy: the a repetition of wbat occurred in the past 20 Government has approved of them all. I re­ years in connection with the implementation of member an occasion some years ago when one the various Acts. We do not want a repetition of these officials misbehaved at Paarl. He was 1239 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1240 found guilty of corruption, and when we asked He is the expert to advise the Durban Munici­ the then Minister to withdraw the licence he pality; how dare he have the cheek to criticize refused to do so and that official was allowed to a Bill which is coming before Parliament? Sir, continue in that occupation where he had been have we reached the stage now where nobody brought into disrepute by the Bantu themselves can criticize? Must the whole country simply and found by the court to have been guilty of accept what this Government wants to do? The corruption. The hon. member himself has said hon. member attacks Mr. Roller for criticizing that he can vouch for the fact that the major­ a measure which has been passed and he attacks ity of the head officials carry out Government Mr. Borquin for criticizing a Bill before it has policy, and that in fact is true; the hon. mem­ been passed. When must these people express ber agrees. If that is so, then why all this fuss? their views; must they all remain silent? If Mr. If they are in fact carrying out Government Roller thought that things were going wrong, if policy, why this hullabaloo here this afternoon? he thought that it was necessary to warn that The hon. member also says that it is in order the administration must be changed, what to avoid clashes that he proposes that these better place to do so than at a conference? boards should take over the administration, and What was the purpose in calling that confer­ then in the next breath he tells us that we have ence? Surely it was not just to give everybody peace and order. He is proud of the fact that an opportunity to pat the Government on the for 20 years under the rule of this Government back. Are these conferences of heads of depart­ we have had peace and order. If that is so, why ments not called for the purpose of enabling does he want to bring about a change? If the people to voice criticism? Have we not had present system is working so satisfactorily and criticism of Government policy from members he is so proud of it, why does he want a of the agricultural staff of this Government? change; why does he take a chance? Why not Surely we cannot, merely because people hap­ leave the present position undisturbed? He pen to criticize what this Government is doing, then went on to say that the S.A.P municipali­ say that we must change the whole system of ties . . . government. The hon. member, to my surprise, re­ The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ ferred to opposition from the United Party TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: “Sap” is to certain improvements which they wished to juice. make with a view to eradicating slums. He knows as well as I do why we opposed the Mr. T. G. HUGHES: That is the sort of Sophiatown movement. He knows that we clever remark that I expect to hear from that did so to protect the rights of owners of pro­ Minister. He is beginning to realize that the perty. He knows that very well. It was made “Sappe” have a lot of juice and that they are quite clear at the time. Sir, we have heard a using that juice to the discomfort of this ■lot this afternoon about Soweto. The hon. Government. We on this side are not dead member says that members of the United wood; we are full of “sap”. Sir, who is respons­ Party take pride in showing oversea visitors ible for the state in which we now find our­ what is being done in Sophiatown, Soweto selves, a state which was eulogized by the hon. and in Port Elizabeth and other areas. It is member? He is quite right; the credit belongs quite true that we are proud of what our to Sap councils. You cannot in one breath talk municipalities have done; we are proud of about all the amenities supplied by the Sap what our S.A.P. municipalities have done. But, councils and then attack them in the next Sir, it is not only United Party members who breath. The hon. member tells us that National­ take visitors around the country to show them ist members of the council of Johannesburg what has been done. Government representa­ have warned of dangers and have pressed for tives are the first people to take visitors to a change, but it is the Johannesburg S.A.P. places like Soweto and Port Elizabeth to show council which is responsible for the peace we them what development is taking place there. have and for the progress made in Johannes­ When they want to impress visitors, they take burg. Sir, in his long speech this afternoon the them to United Party-controlled municipali­ only council with which he could find fault ties to show them what is being done there. was the Bloemfontein council and who governs They are quite justified in doing so, and I there? Bloemfontein is governed by National­ want to pay tribute, as I have done in the ists. That is what happens when you hand a past, to this Government for the support that town over to the Nationalists. The best thing it has given to municipalities in providing that Bloemfontein could do would be to get more housing in these townships. We have rid of the Nationalist Citv Council ait the next never been critical of the Government in this election and to elect a United Party Council. regard; in fact, we have given credit to the Sir, after the speech made here this afternoon Government for making funds available to bv the hon. member, Bloemfontein will be full help these municipalities to provide housing. of “Sappe”. The only other argument the hon. member ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU could advance in support of his contention that DEVELOPMENT: You are beginning to see boards must take over from the municipalities, the light. was that Mr. Borquin. who is the responsible official in Durban, criticized a Bill. In other Mr. T. G. HUGHES: I want to remind the words, what the hon. member is saying is this: hon. the Deputy Minister of the difficulties 1241 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1242 that the United Party Government experienced certainty as to the Government’s future policy. when it sought to provide funds for Bantu They want to expand further; they want to and Coloured housing. I would like to re­ provide more facilities, but they constantly mind hon. members opposite of the opposi­ have to hear threats from this Government tion that we encountered when we spent that the Bantu are going to be removed at money on the Bantu. When this Government the rate of 5 per cent per year. At one time spends money to that end we on this side it was said that the figure may not necessarily are not critical; we encourage them to do so. be 5 per cent but there is a state of un­ Sir, let us take Soweto and let us see what certainty amongst these municipalities as to this Sap municipality has done. Soweto was what development should take place. Take started 35 years ago. [Interjections.]. Sir, I Port Elizabeth, for example. There is a state would welcome speeches from hon. members of uncertainty as to what they can spend and opposite when I sit down; I do not know what development can take place there. The why they are becoming so excited. If they hon. member for Brakpan says in support of think they have a bull point surely they would his motion that the Government is going to get up and state it at once; they would not spend the Bantu back to their homelands, but sit there shouting interjections. Sir, what did what has that got to do with these Bantu the municipality spend there during the year boards administering the affairs of the Bantu ended 30th June, 1965? We find that the in that area? If we hand over control to the municipality spent R53,488,569. boards, how does the hon. member know that these boards will do anything better than *An HON. MEMBER: Where do they get the municipalities have done? As you know, the money? Sir, we are governed to-day by boards; we have boards in all walks of life. Mr. T. G. HUGHES: They borrowed the money. They were able to borrow the money An HON. MEMBER: Jobs for pals. because people had confidence in this Sap municipality and their credit was good. I am Mr. T. G. HUGHES: Yes, jobs for pals. not going to analyse the entire expenditure, Those boards, however, do not all operate but on buildings alone they spent R27.773.749. satisfactorily. The hon. member will be the Included in this amount spent on buildings, first to agree with me. there is a sum of R2,723,516 spent on erecting hostels. The amount spent on housing schemes The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU was R23,678,704. That is what they spent on ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: building these houses of which the Govern­ Much better than the municipalities. ment is so proud to-day. Sir, think of all the facilities they have given to those people; Mr. T. G. HUGHES: If the hon. the De­ think of what they have accomplished in this puty Minister thinks that, then let me ask short period; they accommodate over 500,000 him whether the banana growers are as satis­ people there. fied with their boards as the people in Johan­ nesburg are with the municipality? [Interjec­ Mr. G. P. C. BEZUIDENHOUT: Why does tions.] The hon. member who introduced this the Johannesburg municipality not clear up motion says that the people in Johannesburg Alexandra? and the other large towns are not going to tolerate the present position any longer; that An HON. MEMBER: He does not know they are clamouring for the Government to where Alexandra is. take over the administration of Bantu affairs in these areas. Sir, if there is such a clamour, Mr. T. G. HUGHES: Sir, if the Johannes­ then there is quite a simple solution. All the burg municipality has been failing in its duty, ratepayers have to do is to get rid of their there is provision in the Urban Areas Act for present city councils. If the ratepayers thought the Minister to take action. Why does the that the members of these councils are not Minister not do something about it? doing their job satisfactorily, then surely they would get rid of them. The mere fact that Mr. E. G. MALAN: Alexandra is not in these Sap councils continue to remain in the Johannesburg municipal area, it is a peri­ power, indicates that the ratepayers are satis­ urban area. fied with the way in which these townships are being administered. The city councillors Mr. T. G. HUGHES: In that whole area know what their people want and that is why on the Rand you have a population of over they are elected. Sir, it is traditional in this 700,000; in Soweto alone you have 500 000. country to have democratic institutions. It The municipality has supplied all sort of facili­ is not traditional in this country to hand every­ ties to these people. They have supplied beer thing over to bureaucrats, and that is what halls, recreation grounds,' sportfields, two golf would happen if you handed over the control courses and swimming baths. They have pro- of Bantu affairs to boards. It is against all vided_ all the facilities which these people need. the traditions of our country. Why do we Admittedly they can do more and they are have municipalities and village management spending more and more and developing the boards and provincial councils? I want to as­ town further, but then there is all this un­ sure the hon. member and the Government 1244 1243 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 that we on this side of the House will con­ those conditions, and rightly alleged that our tinue to fight to retain the right of these policy of separate development was not dis­ local authorities to administer ‘their affairs, in criminatory against the Bantu, but in fact up­ terms of the law, in their own areas. lifting, and because it was proved that the City Council of Johannesburg, through its tacit allowance of those conditions, did not care *Mr. A. L. RAUBENHEIMER: The hon. two hoots for the welfare of the Bantu, the member for Transkei has almost succeeded in then National Party representatives in this getting me into the right mood for this debate. House as well as on the City Council of The only pity is that he was not convincing Johannesburg, pleaded that justice should be enough. I really felt that this debate, because done in regard to these people so that the it is such an important matter could be con­ relations between White and non-White there ducted on a much higher level. All debates on could be improved. Now the hon. member for race relationships and our relation politics Transkei will recall that Dr. Verwoerd could should be conducted on a high level, but now not obtain the co-operation of that City Coun­ the '-on. member has caused that level to drop cil and had to come to this House to introduce a little. I find it remarkable that there are only legislation to compel them to give him that two hen. members sitting in the House here co-operation, and to have Sophiatown and its this afternoon who represent Johannesburg environs cleared up, where to-day there is a constituencies, and at the moment there is proud white suburb, Triomf. It had to estab­ only one. I am going to concentrate mainly on lish the Resettlement Board, to establish and Johannesburg now. and T expected the Johan­ develop Meadowlands. What is more, when nesburg representatives to be here in this the development of Meadowlands was under House, because Johannesburg is the largest way, the agitators of Johannesburg, supported public authority in the country which has the by prominent members of the City Council of greatest number of Bantu under its jurisdic­ Johannesburg, incited the Bantu of Sophia­ tion. But now they are conspicuous by their town against the removal without let up. They absence, and the hon. member for the Trans­ made use of the most terrible things in order kei is talking about local authorities that have to incite the Bantu, not only against the to retain control over the administration of Government, but against the Whites in general. Bantu affairs because they have specialized What happened then? That dynamic Resettle­ knowledge of the local conditions. But the ment Board, which had been established by a difficulty"is that although they have specialized dynamic Government, which had come into knowledge of local conditions, they have no power through the agency of a dynamic specialized knowledge of the Bantu,_ and that National Party, tackled that task with the is why we can no longer leave this task in greatest dedication. When the first removals their hands. were made, we recall how people like the The hon. member kicked up a great fuss Rsver-nd Scott and Huddleston marched about what the Johannesburg City Council along in their long gowns there in order to try was doing, and he said that a start was made and “incite the Bantu further and to prevent with Soweto 35 years ago. 1 also arrived in them from moving. But when the first few had Johannesburg 35 years ago and quite by moved, and had seen under what conditions chance I established myself on the boundaries they were going to live, and came and told of the present Soweto. And that is w iere I their friends in Sophiatown about that, there want to begin this afternoon, namely with the was an influx of Bantu to the offices of the influx of Bantu into the Johannesburg area Resettlement Eoard to ascertain when they during and just after the war, and the growth too were going to move to Meadowlands. And of slum areas on a large scale, when the that in spite of the opposition in the Johannes­ Johannesburg City Council did not care two burg City Council and the incitement by cer­ hoots for the welfare of those Bantu, but were tain elements in Johannesburg. When the City only concerned about the cheap labour which Council of Johannesburg saw that they were could be made available for the employers, now going to be faced with a problem, they in this way Sophiatown and its environs came began to bestir themselves in Soweto. But still into existence, as well as Alexandria and, last they did not want to do anything, and then but not least, the shanty town of Moroka, Dr. Verwoerd told them that he was going to where the present Soweto is situated. There force them, and if they did not want to make a the hen. member informs us that a start was move, he would have those Bantu resettled by made with Soweto 35 years ago, but 21 years the Resettlement Board as well. Then he came ago three policemen were murdered in the forward with his plan for the site and service most horrible fashion in the shanty town of scheme. To maintain that that scheme had its Mcreka, and then there was still no sign of origin in the United Party City Council of Soweto. I really do not know whether the Jo lannesburg, is the greatest nonsense and is hon. member knows his history. Those con­ not true. That plan came from the late Dr. ditions continued to exist in that large munici­ Verwoerd, and the site and service scheme pality, the richest and the largest in the coun­ was the foundation stone on which Soweto try, until the late Dr. Verwoerd became Minis­ was built. As a result of that we accom­ ter’ of Bantu Affairs. Because he was modated the Bantu in Johannesburg properly. acquainted with the conditions and because National Party representatives had been plead­ But what is happening now? Now we find ing in season and out for the clearance of that the policy, as laid down by the Govern­ 1245 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1246

ment, is not being applied properly. This en­ We can continue in this way. In addition I tails that plus-minus 150,000 to 200,000 Bantu want to make the assertion that these people, are illegally present in Soweto to-day, because in spite of everything are doing all in their the City Council of Johannesburg refuses to power to make our task difficult for us in apply influx control consistently. On the con­ Johannesburg. I want to refer to the legis­ trary, they are doing everything in their power lation which was passed by this hon. House to to sabotage that policy. They come along in limit the number of resident household ser­ season and out and plead for more Bantu in vants to one. We in Johannesburg accepted at Johannesburg. In support of the motion of the that time that a concession had been made for hon. member for Brakpan I want to quote permits to be granted for more than one resi­ what he said here, namely that if that policy dent servant until such time as the City Coun­ is not applied, we cannot achieve success in cil of Johannesburg had made provision for our race relationships. He quoted here what the accommodation of those servants. But up certain people had said in support of this to now nothing has been done about the pro­ opinion. All the legislation which has up to vision of that housing. The permit system is now been placed on the Statute Book by this being extended there from year to year. What House in order to apply that policy properly is more, permits are being issued to Bantu has been opposed and attempts have been women with children, to live and work in back­ made to torpedo it. When the Physical Plan­ yards. I want to go further and say that ning Act was before this House last year, Johannesburg City Council is to-day supply­ Johannesburg came forward with a report, and ing transport to bring those who are illicitly under banner headlines the Rand Daily Mail sleeping in the back-yards of the residential stated “New African City Needed”, and I want areas to the central part of the city where to read what is stated here— those illicit sleepers work. In the mornings those buses coming out of those residential The report prepared jointly by the City areas, including Houghton, are packed. The Engineer and the Manager of the non- hon. member for Houghton is so eloquent European Affairs Department predicts that with her interjections here this afternoon. She Soweto’s population will jump from 363,000 should rather listen to what I have to say. in 1965 to more than 580,000 in 1970. Illicit sleepers are, inter alia, also being trans­ ported each morning from Houghton to the He then goes on to say— central part of the city of Johannesburg, and evepr evening they are being transported back Despite this tremendous natural increase again by means of public transport, which is in the city’s African population, the rising subsidized by the white taxpayers of Johan­ demand for labour in Johannesburg will nesburg, to the residential areas, and there make it essential to allow an influx of male they creep into the back-yards to go and sleep workers from elsewhere. there. I am sorry I do not have the time to elabor­ Here they are making propaganda for the ad­ ate further on this matter, but for the above- mission of more Bantu, while they know that mentioned reasons I want to support the it is the Government’s policy to stem that motion of the hon. member for Brakpan. In influx and ultimately to bring about a return conclusion, just this. We are dealing with a to the Bantu homelands. [Interjections.] They serious matter here. The future of our race go further in the report and say-— relationships is bound up with how this policy is going to be applied by local authori­ Should the immigration of African ties. Because this is so, I believe that this workers be halted, an estimated shortfall of responsibility cannot be transferred from the at least 63,000 Bantu would develop by Government into the fickle hands of a lot of 1980. If such immigration is further cur­ United Party city councils. tailed or totally restricted, the growth in the Bantu labour force will be inadequate to support any growth in the economy. Mr. J. O. N. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, 1 am very disturbed indeed by the mood dis­ This is another indication that these people played by hon. members on that side in sup­ are not concerned about the policy of the porting this motion. The hon. member for National Party. They are not concerned about Brakpan, who introduced the motion, claimed the welfare of the Bantu. They are not con­ that we have had peace and order in South cerned about race relationships in South Africa through the years, and he ought there­ Africa. Their only concern is cheap labour to fore to pay tribute to the great part played by benefit their own people. It states further— those councils not supporting the Government side for their share in preserving that peace. More Africans will be needed on the But if one listens to the cry from the hearts Rand. The Johannesburg City Council re­ of hon. members opposite who spoke in sup­ port says the Government plans to reduce port of the motion one can only infer that this the number of Africans in the urban areas motion arouses deep emotion in them. If one of Johannesburg would have a detrimental analyses what has been said in support of the effect on the economy. It says more Afri­ motion, one can be even more disturbed at the cans are needed in the Johannesburg urban situation. We have not heard chapter and verse area. proof in support of the motion. We have heard

24-A.H. Vol. 1 1247 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1248 the argument that many people are to-day cently there were meetings of the United illegally in urban areas—this is the basis of Municipal Executive in Cape Town and it the whole case put up by that side. I want to would be very interesting to know from the say the Government should look rather in their hon. the Minister exactly what attitude they own eye to find the beam there rather than adopted in regard to this matter. My informa­ look for the mote in the eye of the councils. I tion is that they were unanimously opposed should like Ministers to listen to this. The to the taking over of the control of Bantu reason why the people are in the urban areas Administration by these Bantu Labour Boards. illegally has nothing, of very little, to do with Let me say at once that the United Municipal the councils. The following are, in my view, Executive does not consist of United Party the reasons why those people are there ille­ supporters mainly, or even to a very great ex­ gally. Firstly, they must get work in order to tent. It consists of representatives of all the live. They must obtain money with which to municipalities throughout the country. It would buy food and survive. The people who are be very interesting to know what the attitude illegally in the cities are there because other­ of some of those councils is, councils in areas wise they would starve. I do not believe the which sent Nationalist members to this Parlia­ problem is quite as extensive as was stated by ment. I ask the Minister, when he gets up to hon. members on that side, but the fact is that reply, to tell us what their attitude was and that is why they are there, and they are pre­ what their reasons were, and I believe he will pared to run the risk of prosecution in order have to admit Sap and Nat were against this to be able to earn the money with which to mooted change. keep body and soul together. Another big argument against the taking The hon. member for Brakpan mentioned over of the labour administration by the Sea Point. I want to say I believe the unsatis­ boards is the fact that there will then be di­ factory situation in Sea Point, as far as it does vided control in important matters. The Bantu exist, is again the fault of the Government. Boards will control the movement of Natives, The reason is this. The people in Sea Point and the municipalities will control housing. In about whom complaints are made are no the past where there has been such a split doubt people, firstly, who have no home to go control, it has led to very unfortunate situa­ to, and the reason for that is largely because tions. We had the case where the Bantu Affairs the Government has not supplied sufficient Commissioner allowed excessive numbers of money for their housing. Secondly, it is partly Natives to come into an urban area whilst due to the fact that many of those people, if sufficient housing was not available. This pro­ they are Natives, are illegally in the area. The cedure was then changed, and since then there reason why they are there illegally, and do not has been a definite improvement in that regard. qualify for a house, is because they must come It would be interesting to hear from the here to work in order to live. More and more Minister what staff it is proposed shall ad­ we are finding all over the country that people minister the regulations, etc., on behalf of these are ignoring the various influx control laws in boards. Is it intended that the staff of the order to be able to live. As poverty grows in non-European Affairs Departments of the the reserves, as conditions get worse, and as, various municipalities are to be taken over because labour is being forced out of places holus bolus to administer matters on behalf like Cape Town, wages rise, so the magnet is of the board? It is quite a different thing for a stronger and more and more people will be person who has entered the municipal service prepared to face the risk of prosecution and suddenly to find himself in the service of the go to places where they can earn a living. Central Government. I want to know from Apart from that aspect, the only other author­ the Minister what is the plan here? Is it pro­ ity concerned is the police, because the police posed to offer them higher salaries to attract must in these difficult circumstances do their them to this work, or is it simply proposed to best to try and control people who are illegally co-opt them, so to speak, into the service of in urban areas. So I suggest it is quite unjusti­ the department? fied to blame the city councils for the situation. At present, as has been said, most of the Let me in passing say there is only one United officials in question employed by the munici­ Party-controlled council among them all, and palities, are more than adequately controlled that is the Council of Johannesburg. As has in their work by the Department of Bantu been said. Johannesburg is a showpiece as far Administration and Development. If they do as Native administration is concerned. not do their duties to the satisfaction of the I suggest that hon. gentlemen must look far department their licences can be withdrawn. In deeper. They are giving vent here this after­ countless other ways they are obliged to carry noon to their frustration at the failure of out the instructions of the department. That their own policy to work. They are absolutely being so, let the hon. the Minister tell us in frustrated because it does not work. and_ they which respects the present system is not work­ are therefore looking around for a suitable ing satisfactorily. Let him quote us chapter scapegoat. The nearest one to hand is some of '•"d verse. If he can do that, will he tell us these councils; so thev proceed to blame them. whether his department has gone with these Where the councils are being blamed, it complaints to the municipalities concerned would be very interesting to know exactly and tried to iron them out? There is machin­ what comments they made to the Ministry of ery; there is every opportunity for these Bantu Administration and Development. Re­ matters to be discussed. The necessary steps 1249 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1250 to rectify matters can be taken without the rather than smaller. It is a very sad state of necessity for taking over and changing the affairs that there is more and more disregard of whole system. these regulations, by the workers and even 1 dealt with the Sea Point complaints. The by the employers. The reason is obvious. They hon. member for Langlaagte referred to the are quite unrealistic. One finds to-day that in fact—so he claimed—that there are 200,000 many places, when workers are on the job and people living in Johannesburg illegally. Hon. a labour inspector comes around the corner, members spoke of the slum clearance that has the labour vanishes, because they are not en­ already been done. I concede certain slum titled to be working there. Later, after the in­ clearance work has been done, and we on this spector has gone, they return. This is just a side welcome it. But let no-one overlook the further illustration of the fact that the law is fact that a considerable number of slums have unrealistic and it is not providing the answer. come into being under this Government. I said at the outset that 1 was disturbed at the Round Cape Town, for instance, we have ex­ attitude evinced by hon. members opposite. tremely serious slum conditions in the divi­ Instead of saying: Let the industries and the sional council area. There are places such as factories be established in these Native areas Elsies River, Parkwood Estate, Rondevlei, and which can suck back these people to good various areas in the direction of Strandfontein employment opportunities, they simply wish where there are far too many shanties arising. these people to be banished from our towns These shanties are arising for the same reason and are quite unconcerned. [Interjections.] as I indicated, namely that people must work That was the effect of what the hon. member to live and they must sleep somewhere if they for Langlaagte said. The fact remains that, are working. If they cannot qualify for a when the Government policy has been best house in terms of Government policy they expressed, it has been stated that these people merely put up their shanties in the places I should be sucked back by the employment mentioned, and elsewhere, and they are very opportunities. We have noticed in what has bad ones. been stated here to-day that there is an appre­ What is the position at Hammarsdale? Ham­ ciable departure from that line. We heard marsdale should be the showpiece of the nothing from the hon. member from Brakpan Government. It is a relatively small industrial pleading for the establishment of industries in area on a virgin piece of land, and when one the reserves and on the borders of the re­ goes to the adjoining Native residential area, serves. We heard not a word of that. He was one finds that this area is as bad as any slum concerned with the people who are living here can be. illegally, but he was not pressing his Govern­ ment one bit to undertake afny of the neces­ sary expenditure and activities to give them The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU employment opportunities there. It is up to ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: Government members and Government organs, When were you there last? if they are in any way sincere in this matter, to press their Government hard and not to Mr. J. O. N. THOMPSON: I was there refrain from doing so because it might not be about a year ago. papular to do so. Mr. Speaker, if this motion was designed to The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU promote a freer flow of labour in the main ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: employment areas, it would at any rate have A lot happens under this Government in a had that merit. I did not hear it mentioned by year. the hon. member for Brakpan. He knows only too well that a freer flow of labour on the Mr. J. O. N. THOMPSON: That Witwatersrand and other places where it is industrial area was established, at a guess, much needed would certainly be an improve­ about 1962. If a lot happens in a year ment. because there are stupid and unneces­ under this Government, we have waited for sary obstacles in the flow of labour across six years to see nothing happen in the region various prescribed areas. When I say freer of Hammarsdale. I would like to know from flow, I am speaking of a flow within a labour the hon. the Minister when he replies to this area. I am not speaking of influx. I am speak­ debate, how many houses have been built ing of movement within a defined area. there to date for the Bantu. It would be very interesting to know. I know that there is talk Mr. Speaker, in moving to a conclusion, I of building houses in the future, but we should want to stress that already in terms of section like to know how many houses there are, 40bis the Government has power, with the bearing in mind that there are approximately concurrence of the local authorities, to estab­ 40,000 Native people in that area and living lish management boards. I believe that they under conditions which are quite as_ bad as have done this in one or two places with the any that were ever present in the wartime. Mr. concurrence of local authorities. I do not Speaker, one does expect a government with a doubt, that if those boards are a success, it is Minister and two Deputy Ministers of Bantu because they have secured the concurrence of Affairs in 20 years to do something in the the local people. way of clearing up some of the slums in the It is all very well for us to stand up for country. What is most distressing, is that these the rights of our own constituencies as we do, slums are still there to-day and getting larger but when it comes to the rights of other areas 1251 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1252

which are under local control, we can gladly ness, and sometimes even the summary re­ sweep them aside and simply claim that Pre­ fusal, of certain local authorities to co-operate toria must run everything. It will be a sad in controlling or stemming the influx. The day when all matters of local government are run from Pretoria. essence of the South African racial question is undoubtedly the presence of the hundreds or thousands of Bantu in the urban areas *Dr. J. C. OTTO: Mr. Speaker, in his Consequently it is the fixed resolve, as every­ speech the hon. member for Pinelands asked one in this House knows, of the Government for proof of local authorities that are not to prevent this influx of Blacks into the metro­ exercising their authority in accordance with politan areas, even if it has to be done by the policy of the Government. But, if the hon. means of additional legislation. Last year the member had listened carefully, he would have Government introduced the Physical Planning heard the hon. member for Langlaagte quoting and Utilization of Resources Act which, as you him chapter and verse in respect of the Jo­ know, was aimed in the first place at decentra­ hannesburg City Council to prove in what lizing industries and in the second place in re­ respect that City Council had in fact been a ducing the attraction of Bantu labour to the major offender in this regard. large urban areas. I now want to maintain I find it very tragic that there is not one that under its present leadership positive steps representative of the great City of Johannes­ have never been taken by the United Party burg here at the moment who can defend the to bind the Opposition to support the Govern­ United Party’s conduct there, but that they ment m this regard. The Opposition has never have left it to a member from the south. Pre­ wanted to bind itself to support the Govern­ viously there used to be at least two ex-mayors ment in its serious attempts to control influx who were always able to defend the activities and to control the increasing numbers of Bantu of the City Council of Johannesburg. But the in cities. In the same way as his predecessors only United Party member from that area, in the same way as the late General Smuts namely the hon. member for Orange Grove, and Mr. Hofmeyr, the present Leader of the has just walked out. Opposition in the United Party has, as far as I want to ask the hon. member for Pine- I know, consistently adopted the attitude that lands, since he is taking such a great interest the presence of the Bantu in the urban areas in this matter, to investigate the situation here should simply be accepted as unavoidable, and in the Cape a little. He should get in touch that the Bantus are here to stay. In respect with the City Council of Cape Town and ask of the influx of Bantu into the urban areas them not to leave Bantu affairs in the hands the Opposition to-day is still adopting k of a, committee on which a Coloured is also laisser faire—let things take their course— serving. I do not know whether this is still attitude. the case, but it was so in the past. One of Since the Opposition and its Leader have the Coloured city councillors of Cape Town adopted this attitude, one can readily under­ is apparently still sitting on the Non-White stand that a United Party-controlled City Affairs Committee. The Committee also deals Council, such as that of Johannesburg, should with Bantu Affairs, and I think that this can imitate this attitude and even put it into prac­ only lead to racial strife. It is really an un­ tice. Those hon. members asked for practical desirable situation. examples. At the end of March of last year The motion of the hon. member for Brak- two high-ranking officials of the Johannesburg pan, as it stands here, contains a very strict City Council namely the City Engineer and proviso. This is contained in the words the manager of non-White affairs, drew up a “wherever considered desirable”. In other report in regard to the increase in the Bantu words, it is clear that, where the control and population in the ensuing decades up to about the management of Bantu administration of a 1980 in the area over which the Johannesburg local authority is sound, pure and correct and City Council has control. This report and the in accordance with the laws and the policy of recommendation it contains, which has been the country, there can be no question of there approved by the majority of the City Council, being any need to interfere. Everybody knows was in many respects diametrically opposed that some local authorities did not in the past to the Government’s policy. Where the and even now still do not want to co-operate Government accepts as principle that the num­ of their own free will with the Department bers of Bantu in the urban areas must be of Bantu Administration and Development. I decreased, this report adopts the principle that feel it is absolutely essential that such authori­ the numbers should be increased. In this way ties, who in season and out are deliberately it is recommended in the report that an addi­ evading and disregarding the laws of the tional Bantu group area of at least six square country, must be punished with a measure miles should be established in the vicinity of such as the one moved here by the hon. mem­ Johannesburg. What it also amounted to was ber. that a plea was made for work to be supplied Mr. Speaker, in my view the essential back­ for the Bantu who are born in the urban ground to and reason for the hon. member areas. It is the principle of this Government for Brakpan’s motion is the continual influx that in white areas opportunities for employ­ of Bantu from the rural areas and the re­ ment should be created for Whites. But here serves to the urban areas, and the unwilling­ this principle is obviously being disregarded. Here that principle is being diametrically op­ 1253 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1254 posed, and the policy of the Johannesburg My concluding question is this. In an City Council is that work should be created orderly, well-run state, can any local authority for the Bantu in the white areas. We know be allowed—and can it be tolerated that it that the ratio in the Johannesburg industries should-—to exercise so much power that it does between White and non-White is 1 to 2.2. That not deem itself to be bound by the policy of is to say, for every 2,200 Bantu workers there the Government and does not feel itself com­ must be 1,000 white workers. We also know pelled to implement that policy? Mr. Speaker, that the white workers are not available. In my answer is no. Such a local authority must other words, the Bantu workers will steadily be restrained. It can definitely not be allowed increase and the existing ratio will be dis­ or tolerated that any local authority should turbed. Then one basis of the United Party’s exercise powers which neutralize the policy policy will once again be that certain Bantu of the Government. can do the work of Whites. The report which I have just referred to, Mr. G. S. EDEN: Mr. Speaker, I have and the fact that it has the approval of the listened with more than ordinary interest to­ majority of the Johannesburg United Party day to what was said during this debate, wait­ City Council members, is a practical example ing for some indication as to what the prob­ of the way in which an attempt is being made lems affecting all these municipalities are, and to oppose the policy of the Government—that what remedy this motion is intending to ap­ is to say, proof of an absolute disregard of ply. It did not take long for this debate to the Government’s policy. This runs counter deteriorate into a criticism exclusively of the to the policy of the Government and is proof Johannesburg City Council. I think that the of how strong this body deems itself to be. motion as it stands is not quite truthful, as The report to which I referred, also confirms every speaker has referred only to the Johan­ the fact that Johannesburg is actually an im- nesburg City Council. perium in imperio—it is a state (or kingdom) I have had a lot of experience with town within a state—and it would like to stay that councils and city councils, stretching over a way. Such a situation cannot be tolerated. It period of 30 years, and I have also had ex­ is not simply that it is prejudicial to the Jo­ perience in the provincial council with munici­ hannesburg area, it is prejudicial to the Repub­ palities. I want to say a few words in the lic as a whole. We know that the migration defence of municipalities. We are, if I am of Bantu from the reserves has been accele­ permitted to say so, entering into a crazy rated owing to the attraction of the mines world. I can recall the time when, not many and the industries. To-day millions of Bantu years ago, there was a tremendous amount are living in the most important industrial of anxiety on the part of the Government areas in and around our cities. As has already over the fact that people on the platteland been mentioned, this is the essence of our were flocking to the towns. There was no talk comprehensive ethnic problem. We know that in those days of having influx control over it results in the creation of a proletariat which these people, although every member of the could cause us difficulty in future. What de­ Government and every member who repre­ finitely aggravates the situation is the fact that sented a platteland seat, was concerned be­ there are Whites and city councils who only cause the platteland towns and the platteland think of to-day, but who close their eyes to itself was being denuded of its population. to-morrow and the future because it is eco­ Commissions were appointed to find out what nomically advantageous to-day to do so, as the reasons were. Recently we have had the the hon. member for Langlaagte also put it, situation where Coloured people from all over and because it is a paying proposition simply the platteland were also coming into the to bring in as many Bantu as possible as towns. This movement of population is a cheap labour. It is for this reason that certain phenomenon which has been going on individuals and local authorities do not deem throughout the world for the past 20 years. it necessary to think about what the future is When we take the Bantu, we find that they going to bring. are doing exactly the same, because it is now In this connection it is necessary for every their turn to come to town, to look for a job, individual in this country, every housewife, to make, as the hon. member for Pinelands every manufacturer and every local authority says, a living to feed their families and to to co-operate in stemming this influx and, if keep the wolf from the door. The Govern­ possible, eventually getting those Bantu to re­ ment has failed on its Bantustan policy, be­ turn to their homelands. We must associate cause the facts of the matter are that if you this major and important task, which has want to get the Bantu back into the Bantu- already been commenced, with the name of stans, or to get them to go there in the first Dr. Verwoerd because he—at that time as the instance, which will be the experience of mil­ Minister of Native Affairs-—was the first per­ lions, you must make it attractive for the son to begin to implement this policy in a Bantu. As the attractions grow the Govern­ ment can send people, or they will go there practical way, although the National Party of their own accord, thereby filling the jobs had from the outset, i.e. 1948, made a tenta­ and doing what the Government wants done. tive start with this policy. We therefore Once you start with compulsory measures, you honour him for that great task with which he will get resistance. For every action there is a made a start. reaction. Let us look at influx control. As far 1255 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1256 back as 1942, the Native Urban Areas Act is so what is he getting excited about? What made provision for influx control. The reason is all this about having to move people away for this was that the municipalities of the again? And now, finally, I want to know day could not cope with the housing require­ where we stand in regard to municipalities ments of the people coming into the towns. as to who is going to do this job. I want to That was the beginning of it. The country remind hon. members on that side of the was beginning to develop. These people were House that the Department of Bantu Affairs coming into the towns and houses were built. has its own offices in all the urban areas whose The Government of the day, succeeded by the job it is to deal with this question of labour present Government, thought that sub-econo­ as well as the question of endorsements, the mic housing was the answer to this problem. endorsing out of people. To my knowledge The basis of sub-economic housing was that nearly all these offices are understaffed. They the local authorities had to take a loss to have not the people and they cannot even an extent which was equal to the loss suffered tackle the job on the farms, let alone getting by the government. It was not very long be­ into the big cities. The hon. member for Brak­ fore, in regard to Bantu housing, it was found pan talks about setting up a board. What sort that local authorities were getting beyond the of a board is this going to be? What sort limits of their capacity to pay. As a result we of powers is it going to have? Are we going had the introduction of other schemes, to have two authorities within a local amongst which was the site and service authority? Are we going to have a lot of scheme. The Government’s attitude was that nominated stooges put onto these boards, if you gave a Bantu a piece of ground he merely to do what the officials are already would build his own house. Then the late Dr. doing? What the hon. the Minister or the hon. Verwoerd, off his own bat, made Bantu member does not say is this. housing economic. Municipalities took advan­ tage of that. It did not matter that the Bantu Mr. G. P. C. BEZUIDENHOUT: Have you had to pay a higher rent, because his wife ever heard of the Resettlement Board? and his children went to work, resulting in the housing situation for Bantu in the munici­ Mr. G. S. EDEN: Yes, I have heard of the palities becoming an economic proposition. I Resettlement Board and the reports are bad. would think that the hon. the Minister would The hon. Ministers do not talk about providing give credit to the municipalities, and not jeer any money to municipalities to do anything. and scoff at them about what has been done All that they talk about is this question of re­ and what has not been done, because versing the trend of the Bantu in the urban thousands of houses have been built by local areas. Much was made at the beginning of his authorities. Local authorities have also pro­ speech about Sea Point. 1 want to deal with vided amenities on a scale which I think the Sea Point in a little more detail. There are hon. the Minister himself is not happy about. people living in Sea Point who employ these I am happy to see the hon. the Deputy Minis­ people. That is the first point. Where can these ter of Bantu Administration and Education men and women congregate or see each other here. I want him to tell me whether it is in legitimate and legal circumstances? No­ true or false, that he thinks that municipali­ where. ties providing these amenities, are doing too much for the Bantu in the urban area, and The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU that by doing that, the Bantu will not go DEVELOPMENT: Do you want that to back to the Bantustans, or go there in the happen at Sea Point? first instance, which will be the case of many millions. We have the situation where local Mr. G. S. EDEN: I put it to you as a simple authorities have officials to carry out their elementary question. A man and a woman work. work at Sea Point and have time off and want to talk to each other. What do they do? Go My experience of municipalities is that they out to Langa? It is so ridiculous. And that is set to with a will to make conditions better what is wrong with the whole of this Govern­ for the Bantu. To my knowledge every muni­ ment’s policy in regard to the Bantu. You are cipality got down to the job and made condi­ not dealing with cattle. tions as good as they could for the Bantu. And they had trained staff. In order to pro­ The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU tect the official the municipalities had consul­ DEVELOPMENT: Can you fell us whether tations with the Government years ago and that is United Party policy? licensed these men. They were licensed and given protection so that they could not be Mr. G. S. EDEN: You are not dealing with sacked if they carried out their jobs. The cattle. You are dealing with people. I am not same thing applies to town clerks, because talking about United Party policy. I am telling they sometimes have unpleasant things to tell you how bad your policy is, because you have councils. Now we find ourselves in this situa­ been going for 20 years and are still producing tion as a result of the enormous population stop-gaps. That is so because you have not the of people coming into the urban areas. The answer. That is the whole essence of it. Session hon. member for Brakpan says that every­ after session amendments come here for the where there is “rus en orde”. Everything is introduction of some new control of one kind wonderful, marvellous and magnificent. If this or another affecting the Bantu. We have heard 1257 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1258 a lot of talk about what has been done to this, a couple of Bantu languages. But, at the most that and the other thing. If the Bantustans they are two or three in a reasonable sized were so attractive why do the Bantu not go municipality. The balance of the staff are there? This is the sixty-four dollar question. Bantu. Every municipality to my knowledge The reason is that it is more attractive here. runs a bureau for labour. I cannot see what the force of this particular motion is at all, Mr. G. P. C. BEZUIDENHOUT: Why not unless it is a direct attack on the city council a million dollars? of Johannesburg. I have had so much experi­ ence in political work to know that as we Mr. G. S. EDEN: Well, if the hon. mem­ have had here in the Cape . . . ber has a million dollars I will take him on. And, the bet I would like to make is that An HON. MEMBER: What an experience. time will show your policy to be wrong. It will fail as it has failed up to now. A point 'Mr. G. S. EDEN: My experience is a lot was made by the hon. member for Koedoes- longer than yours and a lot more honourable. poort that the whole idea of introducing or I think that if the hon. member would omit getting or leaving Bantu labour in towns is his interjections he would do a lot better. that one day they will be able to take the job These are the points that exercise the minds of the white man. What a sorry state of af­ of the hon. members on this side of the House. fairs we have reached! We hear in this House I ask the hon. member who introduced this that everything in this country is at peace and motion, whether by giving an individual a that there is goodwill between man and man, licence—which licences him to work in Bantu tribe and tribe, race and race, and between administration—is that man precluded for all people and people. Yet here we get an hon. time from having views of his own? May he member, who incidentally has grey hairs in not express himself in public? Is the licence certain parts, making a statement which is the held over his head as a sword of Damocles? most elementary political statement which can And. if he does not carry out the Govern­ be made by a Nationalist aspirant candidate ment’s policy, is he to be fired and his licence in his first election. I think it is disgraceful withdrawn and his livelihood taken away from that the Bantu in the urban areas, who is him? These are the things which we want to as anxious and as worried as any member of know. We have not had an answer. All we Parliament sitting here about the future of his have had are two attacks on the Johannesburg own family and children, is now going to be City Council and half an attack on the Jo­ subjected to yet another board which will en­ hannesburg City Council by the hon. member sure that he is driven away into the reserves. who introduced the motion. I want to deal Because that is What is going to happen. The with Bloemfontein. To my knowledge, in the endorsing out programme has failed. There is municipal world, Bloemfontein is a fairly well nobody left to endorse. But the Government run municipality. It stands very high. If there presses on regardless. We have three or four is any difficulty in Bloemfontein about Bantu Ministers or Deputy Ministers of Bantu Af­ being in town, I think there is a ourfew to fairs and they still have not resolved the prob­ ■take care of that. What is the police doing? lem. They do not look like resolving the prob­ Why do they not get on with the job? What lem. They got nowhere near a solution. All are they paid for there? One might well ask that these hon. gentlemen do is to make why the commandant of the Police at Bloem­ speeches at public banquets. It is easy to stand fontein saw fit to make statements in the up at a banquet and say what you are going paper. One might well ask these things. In the to do. But it does not happen. When we reach same way that the Bantu administration official the situation where these boards are set up at George is to be precluded from expressing and they take over these functions, I should his opinion, surely the man on the other side like to ask the hon. the Minister and the hon. of the fence must be precluded from express­ member who is going to reply in a minute, ing his opinion. I do not accept that there is what sort of staff these boards are going to anything wrong at Bloemfontein at all. I do have. Are these boards going to be part of not think there is anything wrong anywhere the Public Service? Are they going to be part else. I think that this is merely the dying of the provincial service or the municipal ser­ efforts of a bankrupt administration trying to vice? Are these boards to have their own focus attention on itself, because the Bantu medical officers of health? Are they to have policy of the Government has failed and is their own departments of public works? Are failing and will fail. It is impossible of appli­ they to have their own departments of water cation or implementation. It cannot thrive affairs, electricity, treasury and administration and it cannot prosper and it will not survive. —all these services which are rendered to-day These people have been talking for 20 years. by the authority which controls the particular I say this quite plainly, as I have said often Bantu township? Are we going to have all enough across the floor of this House: Why these additional things thrust upon us? I can do you not get on with the job? You have assure you that the town council can use talked long enough. You have said what you every one of those men in its own service. are going to do. You have made all sorts of Who are the men that are running Bantu wild promises and worse allegations. But we townships or its administration? They are still sit with more Bantu in the urban areas usually higher qualified people who can speak to-day at this very moment, than we did 20 1259 27ra FEBRUARY, 1968 1260

years ago, despite all the machinery, all the I cannot say the same of hon. members on that threats and all the, shall I say “kragdadig- side of the House, because who on that side heid”, which is the correct word in Afrikaans. participated in the debate? The greatest prob­ So I make an appeal and I say it sincerely to lem in this regard is the problem of the Bantu these hon. members: Forget for one moment in Johannesburg, the' problem of the Bantu that you are dealing with black people. You in Sowelo, in Meadowlands, in Diepkloof and are dealing with decent, straightforward and those areas. That is our greatest single prob­ honourable citizens who only want to make a lem, but not one member representing a Johan­ living. If there are criminals among them, put nesburg seat dared to participate in this debate, them in gaol. It is no crime to go and look they were hardly ever in the House ana now for a place where a man can make a living to keep his wife and family. [Interjections.] I represent Johannesburg; seats. I think it is verv regret to hear that what I have said in my clear whv that should i:>e the case. It is because last few remarks is falling on very deaf ears. Because I say to you that if you keep on in Johannesburg. The hon. member for Pme- going the way you are going, you are build­ lands complained about Hammarsdale. The ing up for us—that means both of us and all land in Hammarsdale did not belong to us; it of us—a reservoir, a flood, which will one day belonged to individual Bantu. We cannot go fall upon us. We will all be engulfed and it and build houses on other people’s land. It will be your responsibility and only your took us a very long time to trace those people, fault. and we were unable to trace them all. My colleague was then compelled to expropriate ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU that land. The hon. member maintained that ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: I we are not clearing up slum conditions. What regret that I have to tell the hon. member who about Umlazi? What about Mdantsane in East has just resumed his seat, and who is consider­ London? What about Garan Kwna; what about ably older than I am, that- it has been a long Moletsi in Pietersburg? During the past few time since I listened to a worse lot of nonsense years we have built 56,000 houses for the than that which he spoke here this afternoon. Bantu in Bantu townships alone. During the He spoke about influx control here as if it was past 20 years we have built more houses for a mortal sin, and as if his party did not want it. Bantu than have been built in the history of England is now being forced to apply influx South Africa, and then the hon. member states control against the West Indians and against that we are doing nothing in regard to slum the Indians in Kenya. Sir, I want to object clearance. most strongly to the hon. member’s calumnia­ This motion, which the hon. member for tion of South Africa. He must not sit tjjere pull­ Brakpan introduced in such a capable manner, ing faces now; he is the one who said: “You naturally deals with the subject which has often are not dealing with cattle.” I shall not tolerate been discussed in this House and elsewhere over this from him, and I shall not tolerate it from the past 20 years. Over the past 20 years the anybody else. He now wants to suggest to the Department of Bantu Administration has given rest of the world that we are treating the Bantu very careful attention to this problem. I am re­ like animals. It is nothing less than an absolute ferring to the problem of -the control of the disgrace. Why does he say, “You are not work­ Bantu, particularly in White areas; the control ing with cattle?” Because we want separate of the influx into the white areas; and the con­ residential areas. I now want to ask the hon. trol in the white areas themselves. It is without member whether it is the policy of his party doubt one of the most difficult and biggest to allow all the Bantu who are working in Sea problems in South Africa. In the past the De­ Point to live there? Is that his party’s policy? partment of Bantu Administration has given “Do you want those cattle to stay there?” We very serious attention to this matter, and is at want them to say in Nyanga and Langa and present giving very serious attention once again those places; they want the same thing. But to the matter. I am referring to the question of because we want to implement that policy -the control of the Bantu in the urban areas. properly, the hon. member comes here with We have appointed a departmental committee, the disgraceful remark, “You are not dealing which is now making its report, to institute a with cattle.” comprehensive investigation into this entire question of the control of Bantu in white areas. ♦An HON. MEMBER: Shame! This report has been fully discussed on a de­ partmental and on a ministerial level and cer­ tain resolutions have been reached. Draft legis­ ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER: I know that lation has been drawn up, and this has been we are dealing with decent people. The only sent to the United Municipal Executive and to difference between that hon. member and us. as far as the treatment of the Bantu is con­ the officials of the non-White Affairs Depart­ cerned, is that we as the governing party have ments of local authorities. I just want to tell ■to accept the responsibility, while they can the hon. member for Transkei that we con­ merely come forward with lip service. sult the United Municipal Executive and the Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate three Municipal Department of non-White Affairs in hon. members on this side of the House who regard to every important piece of legislation. participated in the debate very sincerely on the We consult them and we listen to what they thorough contributions they made. I am sorry have to say. 126-1 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1262

♦Mr. T. G. HHJGHES: Then you must not ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER: Yes, Johan­ criticize them. nesburg is also co-operating now, now that we have compelled them to do so and now ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER: Why not? We that they know they can do nothing else shall come just now to the question of whether They are also co-operating- now, but not at city councils should be criticized or not. I have all as they should co-operate, but^the co- already received the comments of these people operation from that 5 per centjhas Improved on the proposed control measures. Last week I considerably. The focal authorities must rea­ received a deputation of the United Municipal lize that as far as Bantu Administration is Executive, together with representatives of concerned, they are not acting as autonomous I ANA. We discussed the whole matter, and it bodies. They are merely acting as agents of appeared from that discussion, as we already the Department of Bantu Administration. All knew, that this problem is fraught with tremen­ their senior officials in their Bantu Administra­ dous difficulties and that there is no easy solu­ tion sections must be approved and licensed tion. We shall continue during the recess to hold further discussions on the entire question by the Minister. We conduct regular inspec­ of influx control and of the application of sec­ tions to ensure that the work is being done tion 10 and all the difficulties associated with properly. In addition the Minister of Bantu that. It will not be possible for us to introduce Administration has full control over the Bantu legislation this year because -the matter has still Revenue Accounts of the local authorities and to receive further discussion. •« the local authorities may not spend any money from the Bantu Revenue Accounts, nor As the hon. member for Brakpan did. I may they collect any money without the ex­ would also like to lay down a few general prin­ press approval and consent of the Minister. ciples, from which the Government will under When local authorities refused in the past to no circumstances deviate. The first principle is co-operate in implementing the Government’s that the policy in respect of the Bantu—and policy, the Government did not hesitate to this applies in every respect as well to the take over that work from them. .The faon. Bantu in Bantu residential areas in the white member for Orange Grove can say what he areas—is laid down by the Government and not by any local authority. Obviously we would ~pleasis7 but there was a time when the Johan­ find ourselves in a chaotic situation if we were nesburg Municipal authority was just as stub7 to allow local authorities to lay down policy. jrori^ as it could possibly be. and 1 am very The second principle—and this is what hon. grateful to the hon. member for Langlaagfe members on that side do not like—is that the Tor having exposed, in such a brilliant way, local authorities must implement the Govern­ the irresponsible attitude of the local author!-^ ment’s policy in respect of the Bantu, whether ties. _wa§ that irresponsible attitude? It they like that policy or not. If they do not ronsistedof an absolute refusal on the part of want to do so, then we shall see to it that they the Johannesburg City Council to clear slum do in fact do so, and that is why we have this conditions in ~tne municipal area. Now the motion of the hon. member for Brakpan here hon. member for Transkei has come forward before us to-day. Where local authorities have with this nonsense that they opposed it be­ in the past been disinclined to implement the cause the Bantu there had proprietary rights. Government’s policy, the Government simply Did the Bantu have proprietary rights in the said. “Stand aside; we will implement the squatters’ camps round Johannesburg? They policy for you.” were squatting on other people’s land. ♦An HON. MEMBER: And if the policy ♦An HON. MEMBER: You were one of us cannot be implemented? then. ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER: It can be im­ ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER: No, I was not plemented. Sir. I do not want to create the one of you then. We opposed you, and we impression that we are experiencing great op­ gave you a harder drubbing than the Nation­ position from the local authorities with the alists did. precisely in regard to this matter. A implementation of our policy—this is not the E. P. Robinson was one of them, and we gave case at all. I want to talk to-day with the him such a drubbing once that he almost burst greatest appreciation of the attitude of more into tears. We then established the Resettle- than 95 per cent of the local authorities, some ment Board through an act of this Parliament. of whom are not favourably disposed towards and tKIT Resettlement Board did brilliant work us in the political sphere, but who co-operate ~ra the establisHment of Meadowlands~ and with us in all respects in the implementation Diepkloo’f.~!n a very short time they cleared of our policy. Sophiatown. Martindale. Newclare and alt those places and they accommodated and re- ♦Mr. E. G. MALAN: Including Johannes- settTed 140,000 people. Now it is being said burg? that these boards cannot work. We have ♦The DEPUTY MINISTER: To a large ex­ another resettlement board, to clear up the tent it has been impossible to improve on that- mess at Evaton, to remove all the compounds co-operation. from Vereeniging. which they have already done. They have cleared Meyerton com­ ♦Mr. E. G. MALAN: Johannesburg as pletely, and they are at present clearing up well? the over-occupation of the Bantu residential 1263 2 7 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1264

areas of Vereeniging and Vanderbijlpark such Jie much better advised to go and take a look as Sharpeville and Bapholong, as well. These at the backyard-occupation to be found There two boards, both under the chairmanship of in the northern suburbs of Johannesburg and Mr. Willie Heckroodt, have done brilliant and in the other suburbs. I agree with the hon. outstanding work, and I want to pay great member for Brakpan that the Government tribute to-day to Mr. Heckroodt and all his will, in the further implementation of its board members the way in which they have policy, and also as it is contained in the Physi­ done their work. cal Planning Act, not tolerate any city council I go futher. I maintain that those resettle- to impede the implementation of that policy. ment boards—1 want to coniine mvself to the resettlement boards of Johannesburg onlv— and that is the development of the advisory have done much better work than the Johan- boards in the Bantu residential areas in the nesburg Citv Council. Does the hon,. member. for Orange Grove want to denv that the Bantu Revenue. Account of the Johannesburg Citv .Council operates at a loss every vear. and that local advisory boards, almost without excep- it is one of the few municipalities in South Atrica whose Bantu Revenue Account does operate at a loss? Whv? Because it is spend- ment, and we are grateful to them for that. ing a lot of unnecessary money and because it Now a new, similar board is going to he will not listen to us and collect economic established in Soweto. In the past we have so Tents. It is working at a loss, but next to them far had no difficulty with those boards but if is is Meadowlands and Diepkloof, and they are gradually becoming obvious that there is á working at a considerable profit, at surplus. If .group ot agitators who want to máké' use of w.e were to hand over Meadowlands and Diep- these boards to agitate and to incite the Bantu kloof to the Johannesburg Citv Council to- against the Government’s policy of separate -day,, we would be giving them a present of R5 development. And thev are going much fur- million, and it we were to hand over Soweto ther than that, I now want to express theHope to the Resettlement Board. It would be that the advisory board of Soweto, which T saddled with a tremendously great burden. So. Utttse boards are doing outstanding work. I these dayst will continue as in the past and „Mnt to issue a gentle warning to the JoKán- oppose any attempt made to exploit them in ijfsburg Council to-dav. Thev must order to cause agitation in Soweto; and that kindly comply with our instructions in regard they will oppose any attempt made bv any Jp the collection of economic rentals, because city councillor of Johannesburg who wants to all they are doing at present is to take the make use of those boards in order to make white Revenue Account and subsidize out of propaganda against the policy of the Govern- it because they are not doing their work pro- ment. I have no doubt at all that we will perly. obtain their co-operation. j l am glad the hon. member for Koedoes- effort referred to the Future Planning Report. *Mr. E. G. MALAN: This sounds a lot like Tft>. 4, of the Johannesburg Citv Council. interference in non-white politics. Then they come forward here with grandiose schemes, ihev want to purchase a further *The DEPUTY MINISTER: Is this the sort 1,800 morgen, lhey talk about building up of nonsense one must reply to? We will not into the air, and they talk about importing allow any white city councillor to interfere in thousands of additional Bantu from outside the politics of those people. to work there in 1980. I want to warn the Johannesburg City Council that if they con- *Mr. W. T. WEBBER: And a white Minis­ tinue with this course they will run into ter? trouble. There is no doubt about that. We will not allow that development to take place as *The DEPUTY MINISTER: White Minis­ the Johannesburg City Council apparently ters will not interfere at all, but the white wants it to. One of their senior officials came Minister will do his duty just as this Govern­ along and advocated in his annual report at ment did its duty when it dealt with the the congress at George—and I will not be told agitators, and that is why we have had this that this is his idea only: I Chink "It is the idea peace and quiet during the past few years in of the United Party in the Johannesburg Citv South Africa. We will most certainly do it, and Council—this nonsense that Soweto should if any attempt is made to take advantage of now be converted into a Bantustan as he those things, we will take very serious steps called it,_a Bantu homeland. If those are the against those people. lines along which the Johannesburg Citv .1 want to conclude by saving that this prob- Council are thinking, thev are most definitely lem of the control of Bantu labour in the going to run into difficulties with this Govern- white cities, particularly on the Witwatersrand. ment. I just want to tell the Johannesburg Citv in the Western Cape, Port Elizabeth,' Bloem­ fontein, is one of our most difficult problems. Council this: Instead of building these castles To a very large extent we are still experiment­ in the air and instead of trying to oppose the ing..We have the co-operation of most of the Government’s policy in this wav. they would city councils, and to-day to a large extent that 1265 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1266 of the City Council of Johannesburg as well. of Enquiry into Improper Political Interfer­ We are continually in consultation with one ence and the Political Representation of the another in order to find out what the best Various Population Groups. methods are to make that control as efficient and as streamlined as possible. If, in that ‘The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE, process we find it necessary to establish other OF FINANCE AND OF ECONOMIC AF­ boards which are able to do the work more FAIRS: Mr. Speaker, it fell to my lot and it efficiently we will most certainly do so. This was also my privilege to act as chairman of the is no attack on local authorities; it is simply commission, the report of which is now under an attempt to tackle a very difficult problem discussion. When we commenced our activities in the most efficient way. If this Government I think that all of us—and I am speaking on can find a more efficient formula, in conjunc­ behalf of all the members of the commission tion with the bodies to which that has at —were deeply impressed by the magnitude of present been entrusted, the Government will the task that had been entrusted to us. There­ not shy away from doing what the hon. mem­ fore we tackled it in earnest and we agreed ber for Brakpan in his motion asked that we mutually, as it were, that we would carry out should do. The Government and the Minister this task objectively and in earnest. We were and his two Deputy Ministers are fully aware aware of the scope of the terms of reference of how difficult this problem is, and we will and we were also aware of the fact that our not, as the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg recommendations would have far-reaching im­ did, say that it is insoluble; we shall solve it at plications, not only for race relations here in all costs. South Africa, not only for peace and calm among the various race groups, but also, to a ‘Mr. G. P. C. BEZUIDENHOUT: With the large extent, for the political future of par­ consent of the House, after having heard the ticularly the Coloureds, who were under dis­ hon. the Deputy Minister say that he is pre­ cussion. pared to accept certain parts of this motion, In the time at my disposal I want to confine and because I am confident that he will carry myself to that part of the recommendations out these steps, I am asking leave to withdraw which affects the political rights of the this motion. Coloureds. Since there will obviously not be sufficient time for discussing this matter in full With leave, amendment and motion with­ detail. I should like, more in general, to give drawn. you, Mr. Speaker, and the House, a survey of the discussions, i.e. how they took place, and The House adjourned at 6.35 p.m. briefly the reasons why those of us who signed the majority report, had arrived at our find­ ings. I want to start by saying that I as a mem­ ber of the National Party have no reasons for WEDNESDAY, 28TH FEBRUARY, 1968 taking political expediency into considera­ tion, nor did I do so. The present position is that the Coloureds have four representatives in this House. The continuation or the termina­ Prayers—2.20 p.m. tion of that representation can hold no politi­ cal expediency for me as a person who is in PAARL MOUNTAIN DISPOSAL BILL politics and who is a member of the National Party. For that reason I found it easy and ‘The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRI­ simple to approach this matter quite objec­ CULTURE: Mr. Speaker, I move— tively. The only considerations I did take into account were, on the one hand, the political That, in accordance with the resolution future of the Coloureds in South Africa, i.e. adopted by the House on 6th June, 1967, what would be just and fair towards them, in the proceedings on the Paarl Mountain Dis­ terms of which they would best be able to posal (hybrid) Bill [A.B. 11—’67] be re­ develop their own political future, and, on the sumed at the stage reached during the pre­ other hand, also the question of peaceful co­ ceding session. existence between us and the Coloureds, the Indians and the other race groups in South Agreed to. Africa. I should like us to take into account that we are not only dealing here with the REPORT OF COMMISSION OF ENQUIRY interests of the Coloureds, but, by taking de­ INTO IMPROPER POLITICAL INTER­ cisions concerning the political interests of the FERENCE AND POLITICAL REPRESEN­ Coloureds, we must inevitably affect the in­ TATION OF THE VARIOUS POPULATION terests of the other various race groups in GROUPS South Africa as well. For the above-mentioned reasons I want to say right at the beginning ‘The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: that I definitely want to reject any accusation Mr. Speaker, I move— of a lack of objective approach, against me at least—and, I think, the members on my side That the House discuss the following who signed the majority report—and I feel in­ matter, viz.; The Report of the Commission clined to say the other members of that com­ të&l 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1268 mission as well. In the first instance we as a Christian Institute, Nusas, the Liberal Party, commission tried to secure the opinions of all the Black Sash and perhaps a few others as bodies and persons who might perhaps have well. But I want to say right here that as far had an interest in these matters or who deemed as 1 am concerned these people attended those it expedient to furnish us with information. meetings with ulterior motives. It was not their Initially we mainly received memoranda from intention to assist us in giving effect to our white institutions and persons such as the Pro­ terms of reference. They wanted to use the gressive Party, the Trade Union Council, the commission as a platform to voice their objec­ Liberal Party, the Institute of Race Relations, tions to apartheid once again, and their argu­ Sabra, Professor Olivier and others, and it was ments were based on that. That is why I have really with difficulty, after representations had no alternative but to attach little importance to been made to these people, that we received the evidence they submitted to us. I want to memoranda from the Coloureds themselves. emphasize that they without the slightest That is why we had the following result, doubt revealed undisguised hatred of separate namely that out of 45 memoranda that were development. On several occasions questions submitted—excluding the two official docu­ were put to them to show, and it was indeed ments—17 were from Coloureds and Indians, shown, that their consideration was the cam­ whereas the rest were from white persons or paign they were carrying on against separate white bodies. Taking a general view, I had no development and not the problem \ye were alternative but to come to the conclusion that dealing with at that stage. That is why I say there was a fair measure of lack of interest that under the circumstances one cannot attach among the Coloureds. Initially this was one of much importance to evidence of that nature. our problems, namely that interest had to be Another problem we had was that witnesses aroused, as it were, among the Coloureds. In so often contradicted themselves, and therefore several cases specific representations and we could not attach much importance to the requests were made to them in which they were evidence they gave before us. In this respect I asked to show interest and to submit memo­ should like to mention one striking example, randa. and that is of Mr. Schwartz, the leader of the A second problem we experienced was that Federal Party. He gave evidence before us, and many of the bodies that submitted memoranda, it seems to me—according to reports that have and some of the people who gave evidence already appeared in the papers and according before the commission, were to a very large to conversations I heard—that he will quite extent uniformed. It happened quite often, on often be quoted here. By quoting what he said. several occasions in fact, that we had to I do not want to be contemptuous of Mr. struggle in the evidence with people who had Schwartz and the evidence he gave. I think to be informed first about what the commission that the evidence he gave before us was very was really about, what the actual state of sincere, and it may perhaps be his very sincer­ affairs was at present, what aims we had in ity that gave rise to this great measure of con­ mind and in what regard they could furnish tradiction in his evidence. We have already us with information. In this regard I want to seen in some of the newspapers that Mr. refer in particular to the District Six Associa­ Schwartz quoted what he had supposedly said tion. If you look at that. Sir, you will see that —I can do so again, but there is no time for it those people revealed their innermost thoughts —namely that he could not go on with his to us, and that is why I should not like to party if he did not accept as one of his reject their evidence; may I say in passing that principles that the representation of Coloureds this is not because of the fact that they did in this Parliament should continue. I myself support the idea on which I eventually de­ asked him the following question— cided. They said from the beginning that they did not want any representation in this Par­ In other words, the oral evidence you liament and that they wanted a body which have just given in this respect differs from represented themselves. This is the way these what you have said in your memorandum. people revealed their innermost thoughts to us. The second paragraph on page 2 reads— But the other members will agree with me that it took a long time before they could be made to understand what the inquiry was about, Die siening van die Federale Kleurling- what the present state of affairs really was and volksparty in hierdie verband is kort en in what connection we wanted information duidelik en kom daarop neer dat ons nie from them. kan sien tot waiter nut die huidige blanke Another problem we experienced, was that verteenwoordiging in die Republikeinse so many of the bodies did not attend our meet­ Parlement vir ons is nie. ings in order to assist us in analysing our terms of reference and the problem we had to deal Does this not contradict what you have with, but they went there simply because they said in your oral evidence? were opposed to apartheid and because they wanted to use that platform of the commis­ sion’s activities to reveal their opposition to Then he said— apartheid once again. The people who attended those meetings with that aim in mind, were, Dankie dat u my aandag daarop gevestig inter alia, the Institute of Race Relations, the het. Ek onderskryf wat ons daar in die me­ 1269 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1270

morandum gesê het. There is no contradic­ ings of a smaller council, and that we had to tion with what I have said. I want to em­ return from that council with the information phasize that as far as we are concerned, the we secured and the resolutions we passed and Coloured people have drawn no benefits then to make recommendations to this higher whatsoever from the fact that they have body. We do not have many of these com­ these representatives in Parliament, no mat- missions in South Africa. Referring to the rial benefits. That is so, and that we say in many commissions that had been appointed in our memorandum. But and this is the point, England, Sir Winston Churchill once said, this is a voice in Parliament and we have “We are overrun by them like the Australians been able to see what a voice in Parliament by the rabbits.” We have few of these com­ can do. When a voice is raised in Parlia­ missions and that is why we still attach great ment, dan weerklink dit orals dwarsdeur die importance to the commissions which have to wêreld. Daarenteen, as jy jou stem laat hoor bring out such reports. in die Kleurlingraad, hoor jy niks. Dit bly There is one point 1 should like to empha­ doodstil. size as my duty and as being my approach in respect of the work that has been entrusted 1 am quoting this to indicate to what a large to me, namely that it can certainly not be extent the witnesses contradicted themselves expected of me to give effect slavishly to the there, and particularly because the evidence evidence that was submitted and dished up to of this person, who attaches such slight im­ the commission. I am convinced that it is my portance to the representation in this Parlia­ duty to separate the chaff from the wheat and ment, will to a large extent be used against not merely to take the evidence as a whole the idea of terminating Coloured representa­ and to say, “So many said this, the others said tion in this House. But I shall come back to that; now I must see who is in the majority.” this again. There are a few aspects of his evi­ That is most certainly not my task. It is in­ dence that I should like to discuss. deed my task to see what evidence is of im­ Another problem we had was that the portance and valid and then to make an ana­ Coloureds themselves were actually divided lysis accordingly. [Interjections.] into various groups. We had evidence from the Durban Coloured Federal Council. They do Mr. W. V. RAW: Don’t confuse me with not regard themselves as being part of the facts; my mind is made up! whole Coloured community in South Africa. They are saying, “No, we are different; we *The DEPUTY MINISTER: In considering are—I might as well say—super-Coloureds, the evidence, we find that the evidence of the and we do not want you to add us to the Whites was to a large extent reasoned, whereas other Coloureds in South Africa; we want to the evidence of the Coloureds was to a large be treated differently from the rest of the extent a revelation of their feelings and their Coloureds.” With all these problems I must wishes. That is why it is essential to consider admit that the majority of the memoranda each piece of evidence on its merits and then and the majority of the evidence did not pre­ to see where one stands. I approached the sent us with much that was positive. Ever so matter in this frame of mind, namely to take often it was a repetition of the political philo­ into consideration the sound reasoning as well sophies of which we had already heard such a as the feelings of the people who will possibly great deal in the past and of which we know be affected by legislation. At this stage I want enough in any case. The solutions suggested to say that as regards the evidence, one pheno­ by many of these people who gave evidence menon was very obvious throughout, parti­ before us did not have any connection with cularly in regard to the evidence of the the actual political realities, and in any case Coloureds, and that was that they were tre­ they did not comply with the definition of mendously enthusiastic about the establish­ politics which, to my mind. Professor Olivier ment and development of the Coloured Per­ worded so well. He said, “Politics is the art sons Representative Council. All of them, from of the possible, the responsibility of the time­ the first to the last, were enthusiastic about less.” In view of the fact that the realities in this. At this stage we must accept one fact, politics were to such a large extent not taken and I suppose no member of the commission into account in the evidence, substantial parts will differ with me in this regard, namely that of the evidence we obtained really have little the Coloureds are approaching the establish­ value for us. ment of the Coloured Persons Representative But I asked myself, and I should like to Council with great enthusiasm. They do not consider this matter in your presence, what want to do anything at all which may obstruct should the approach of a commission be when the development of that Council to the fullest such terms of reference are entrusted to it? extent possible. Now I want to refer to certain What should it consider? I have already said parts of the commission’s report, and after that I feel convinced that we had no reason to that hon. members opposite may laugh once be anything but objective. But what is the again about the minority report that was intro­ further approach that one should have? These duced. are terms of reference that were given us by a The majority report was approved in Cape higher body, and T think the idea was that we Town and approximately 14 days later a copy had to secure and analyse evidence and that of the minority report was submitted to me. we had to discuss it in the calmer surround­ Paragraph 2 of the latter report, which may 1271 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1272 be found on page xix of the report, reads as Party. I think that we can attach very geat follows— value to his evidence. His evidence was as follows— We oppose the abolition of representation for our Coloured people in Parliament. It Ook ons voel dat daardie verteenwoordi- is essential that our Coloured citizens should ging in die Volksraad daar moet bly, maar have some defined form of representation terselfdertyd voel ons dat ons nie twee in our sovereign Parliament. To deny them stemme moet hê nie. Dit wil ek beklem- this right, which they have enjoyed for over toon. In die laaste vyf jaar het dit vir ons a century, would be a gross injustice. More­ duidelik geword dat daar botsings ontstaan over, the overwhelming volume of evidence tussen die Kleurlingraad en daardie mense given by the Coloured people to the Com­ wat die Kleurlinge in die Volksraad ver- mission, was that they would bitterly resent teenwoordig. Aan hierdie kant sê ons dat being deprived of representation in the die Kleurlinge dit of dat wil hê, en dan sovereign Parliament in South Africa. kom een van daardie mense en sê in die blanke Volksraad dat ons nie ons eie mense When I read the words “bitterly resent” in verteenwoordig nie. Daardie soort ding wil their report, I was shocked, because it is ab­ ons nie hê nie. Ons wil nie hê dat ver- solutely untrue. deeldheid gesaai moet word nie. Daar is van die Kleurlingverteenwoordigers in die Volks­ *An HON. MEMBER: Read the evidence. raad wat nog nooit die moeite gedoen het om in die Kleurlingraad te kom sit en luister *The DEPUTY MINISTER: I shall do so, na die debatte wat daar plaasvind nie. Tog why am I standing here? As I have said, that veroordeel hulle manne wat daar sit. Ek sê allegation is absolutely untrue. I think the hon. dus dat ons nie twee stemme kan hê nie. members who signed the minority report could Ons kan nie twee stemme hê as ons ’n volk have argued that there were doubts in the wil opbou nie. ’n Mens het nie twee monde minds of -the Coloured witnesses, and they nie—daar moet een wees. Wat ons betref could have referred to the number of wit­ ons wil hê dat die Kleurlingraad die eint- nesses who were in favour of the representa­ like mondstuk vir die Kleurlingmense moet tion in this House being continued and the wees. number of witnesses who were against it. Bur to say that the majority of them “bitterly re­ Is that “resentment”? Is it “resentment” if that sent” this, is untrue; it does not contain a is the way the representation of Coloureds grain of truth, and I should like to prove this here and its possible abolition are being talked by quoting parts of the evidence. about? Mr. Schwartz, to whom I referred a few I also want to refer hon. members to what moments ago—and his evidence will still be Dr. Van der Ross said. Dr. Van der Ross was quoted here a great deal—said certain things the leader of the Labour Party, and of the which are relevant to this allegation in the three parties that appeared before us his party minority report. He indicated that representa­ was most certainly the most leftist. Dr. Van tion for the Coloureds in this House did not der Ross said the following— interest them. I have already mentioned what he had said in this regard. Is that not enough? Tot sekere hoogte sal dit ’n nuwe konsti- Was there “resentment” on the part of Mr. tusionele wending wees. Ek sou sê dat in- Schwartz if representation here would be dis­ dien die gedagte is dat ons geleidelik aan continued? Mr. Schwartz clearly gave us to daardie Kleurlingvolksraad sover moontlik understand that to him the policv of represen­ alle beheer gee oor daardie aangeleenthede tation here was merely “political expediency”. wat by hom tuishoort, en as ons saam daar- He said, “I cannot go to my people and speak mee sê dat die blanke Volksraad afstand against this. I know that this representation moet doen van sekere van sy magte, magte means nothing to me. But this is a popular wat uitsluitlik betrekking het op die Kleur- idea and we all, the Coloured political parties ling, is dit nogtans ’n gedagte dat hierdie amongst one another, use this as a plank in twee Rade bymekaar gebring kan word in the platform. That is why I must also retain die Senaat, maar dan moet daar bepaald ook it as a plank in my platform.” That is his ap­ nog direkte en proporsioneel geldige verteen- proach. woordiging wees in so ’n liggaam. Ek dink nie dif kan die huidige Senaat wees nie, maar *Mr. W. V. RAW: No, that is not true. sal ’n nuwe kompleks moet wees, maar dan [Interjections.] sal, soos ek reeds gesê het, jou Kleurling­ volksraad bepaald meer magte moet hê as *The DEPUTY MINISTER: Hon. members wat hy nou gaan kry. Saam daarmee sal jou will be afforded an opportunity to refute this. blanke Volksraad afstand moet doen van I say that if we as members of the commis­ sekere van sy magte. Dan sal ons miskien op sion want to do our duty, we should not take ’n hoër vlak saam kan praat. Ek sien dit is excerpts of the evidence but we should treat nie ’n onmoontlike situasie nie. Dit is iets the evidence as a whole and make the neces­ waaroor daar miskien nog gedink kan word. sary deductions. [Interjections.] I also want to refer to the evidence given by Is that “resentment”? That is why I say that Mr. Petersen, the leader of the Conservative I was shocked when I saw this deduction in the 1273 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1274 minority report which is being sent into the develop to the highest extent if this representa­ world as a result of the evidence to which we, tion here were continued. In that regard we who served in the commission, listened. In the have the evidence of the Coloureds themselves, time at my dispoal I cannot indicate how great and hon. members may refer to it if they wish a measure of enthusiasm there was about this. to do so. All the Coloureds were tremendously enthu­ Having due regard to the wishes and the siastic about the establishment of the Coloured feelings of the Coloureds and the sober-minded Persons Representative Council. Do hon. mem­ reasoning of people such as Dr. 1. D. du Ples- bers" want to suggest that this, too, was a U.P. sis with his tremendous experience, 1 am con­ idea? They were enthusiastic about this. But vinced that if we took this course, we would be this does not only include the Coloureds. I taking a further step in respect of the political want to refer hon. members to a person whom development of the Coloureds. they esteem very highly, namely Judge Fagan. Amongst other things he criticized in his book­ *An HON. MEMBER: What did Dr. Du let "Co-existence in South Africa” the old Plessis suggest? Coloured Council because of its shortcomings, particularly because of the fact that this body *The DEPUTY MINISTER: He said that met in secret. He said the following— the representation here could not continue. The day will come when those people who at pres­ If these shortcomings are moved as, may ent are opposing the representations of the I hope will happen in the course of time, majority report will say that this was the right and better co-operation can be obtained from the Coloured people, the council would seem step. to me to be the kind of situation which may Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: Mr. Speaker, well play a very valuable role. if 1 had been chairman of a commission which had published a report and which had paid so *HON. MEMBERS. Hear, hear! little attention to the evidence which it had heard and which came to conclusions in such *The DEPUTY MINISTER: Those^ hon. sharp contradiction to the evidence, I suppose members are very good at exclaiming “Hear, that 1 would be forced to make the kind of hear!” about a council we established, a coun­ ridiculous speech which we heard from the cil they opposed when we wanted to establish hon. the Deputy Minister this afternoon. 1 sup­ it. Now I ask myself the following: What will pose that I too would be forced to make a the position be if the council we are develop­ speech of that kind because 1 would be faced ing at present has to be developed to its opti­ with the position that I had come to conclu­ mum and there is still at the same time repre­ sions which would be very difficult to support sentation in this House of Assembly? with evidence, if the evidence were considered in its entirety. *Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: What is its optimum? *The DEPUTY MINISTER: That council The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU must be developed as soon as possible and the ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: Coloureds it represents should be trained in Tell us about your ridiculous somersault. politics and developed as soon as possible. On page 132 we have the evidence given by Mr. Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: Mr. Speaker, Fortuin, who was a very good witness, and on I am not surprised to hear an interjection of page 153 we have the evidence given by Mr. that kind from that hon. Deputy Minister. He Schwartz. We have Dr. Du Plessis’s evidence is the greatest expert on somersaulting this to the effect that simultaneous representation House has ever seen. In fact, I believe that he will simply not work; for that reason it must would be given the international _ medal for be a very important factor in considering the somersaulting if there were something of that decisions that have to be taken here. kind. Unfortunately I have almost no more time The hon. gentleman who has just sat down left. With that in view we came to the conclu­ of course found himself really hoist with his sion that having regard to all the circum­ own petard because he said that if the Coloured stances, i.e. the political development of the Council were to be developed to the optimum, Coloureds in the future and the peaceful co­ then representation in this House would conflict existence in South Africa of all the various with that development. But what is the opti­ race groups, it would be a good thing to con­ mum for the Coloured Council? Is there any tinue at first—in the light of all the evidence suggestion in this report as to what the opti­ with which I cannot deal now—with the estab­ mum for the Coloured Council is? Has there lishment and development of the Coloured been any suggestion from the hon. the Prime Persons Representative Council. Simultaneously Minister as to what the optimum for the with that or subsequently we may then termin­ Coloured Council is? Are we again going_ to ate the representation in this House. In the have two parallel Parliaments and a state with­ light of the evidence that was given and the in a state, of which we have heard before from circumstances in question and particularly as a that side of the House? result of this enthusiasm that was displayed by the Coloureds in respect of the Coloured Coun­ An HON. MEMBER: What is a federation cil, we decided that this council would not if it is not a state within a state? 1275 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1276

Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: That hon. say to me now that the Government is com­ member must not ask ridiculous questions. We mitted to that report? The hon. Deputy want to know what the optimum is to which Minister spoke as a Nationalist and a member this council can develop. That is the question of the Government. we have been putting to them for 15 years in this House and we have not had an answer The MINISTER OF TOURISM: [In­ yet. I am hopeful that before this debate is audible.] over, we will get an answer from the hon. the Prime Minister. I hope we get an answer from Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: It seems that him because I was most interested to see . . . the hon. the Minister is speaking merely on his own behalf. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: The report does not deal with optimums. I think that the third question to which we want a reply is whether so-called improper Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: No, it deals interference is capable of being defined in a with minimums and jolly poor minimums at manner not already covered by the existing that. I have here an article which appeared electoral laws and whether it can be further in one of the newspapers, supporting the controlled and contained by legislation. I think Government on the 24th December, 1967. once we have that information before us, we which states— can decide what alternative solutions there are to the solutions proposed by the majority Die gedagte aan tuislande vir die Kleur- group and apparently accepted now by the linge en Indiërs is nie meer taboe nie. Die Government. Then I think that, if an alterna­ Regering sal horn nie weer daarteen uitspreek tive policy is advanced, we should deal with nie en in akademiese kring sal dit sterk the main criticisms which may come against bepleit word. that policy and compare their policy finally with the recommendations made by the major- ity group in their report. The article was written by the political cor­ respondent of Dagbreek. Is this the direction Let us have a look at this report. Let us in which we are going? On that basis the hon. have a look at the memoranda that were pre­ gentleman who has just sat down might have sented to the commission and the evidence some substance for his findings, ibut is that that was placed before it. As you know, Mr. the policy of his party? I think we are entitled Speaker, I practised in the courts for quite a to know because that is the only basis on long time, as the hon. the Prime Minister did. which he can justify it. I expect the hon. the We both know what can happen in cross- Prime Minister to tell us in the course of this examination and re-examination. Therefore I debate whether he stands for a Coloured agree with the hon. the Deputy Minister. The homeland in the same way as he stands for a evidence given must be looked at as a whole. Bantu homeland. When one has heard a When one looks at the evidence as a whole, speech of the kind we have just heard, one one finds of the 47 individuals and groups realizes that if you are to deal with this report that submitted memoranda or gave evidence, at all. I think there are six issues which one one can come to no other conclusion than has to face. I think that those issues must that 27 of them were in favour of the reten­ be debated to the full. tion of representation in this House in one The first is whether the main finding of the form or another, that nine of them favoured majority report, namely that the representation abolition and that the rest seemed to be un­ of Coloured people in this House should be decided. I concede that to the Minister. done away with, is not against the weight of Now, Sir, who were the nine who favoured evidence and against the wishes of the Cape the abolition of representation in this House? Coloured people. I think that that is the first One was a Mr. Van Zyl, a member of this issue on which we must take a decision. House. Another was Professor Olivier from The second matter on which we must de­ Durban. The third was the District Six Com­ cide is what sort of blueprint we will be left mittee of which I have no doubt we will with in South Africa if we accept the findings hear quite a lot still, despite the fact that in of the majority on that commission. Will the the political life of the Coloured people it hon. the Prime Minister accept it? Or has he seems to have played no part whatever. Most accepted it already? When the hon. the of us know why it came into existence and Deputy Minister was speaking, he spoke as a why it claims the support it does. It has nothing to do with politics. What it had to Nationalist and a member of the Government. do with was with the removal of the Coloured people from the District Six area. Then there The MINISTER OF TOURISM: What are was Eerw. Engelbrecht. a Coloured man from you speaking as? Natal; a Mr. Badat. an Indian from the Trans­ vaal. who seemed a little uncertain; Mr. Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: I am speak­ Jacobs, a Transvaal Coloured man: Sabra, ing as a Leader of the Opposition. I am per­ which has now changed its mind yet again fectly entitled to criticize that report. But is from the evidence it gave when I sat on the the Government committed to it? Are you old select committee on the Coloured Vote prepared to tell me now that the Government and changed its mind again from a statement is committed to it? Will the hon. the Minister by its old chairman, the late Rev. Gerdener. 1277 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1278

The PRIME MINISTER: You must not Then there is the conservative group of accuse anybody of having changed his mind. whom Mr. Petersen has been quoted. Here is what Mr. Fortuin said— Sir. DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: Mr. Speaker. I have a feeling that before we finish this afternoon I will be accusing the Prime Minis­ If I have to fight an election and tell ter of having changed his mind, and his whole my voters there will be no representation Party with him. Then there were Mr. Dollie of the Coloured people in the Central Par­ and Dr. I. D. du Plessis. Now, with great liament I will be rejected. The reason why respect, is that a representative group of the they will reject me, is that the Coloured Coloured organizations in South Africa? Is people have come to attach much import­ that a representative group of European poli­ ance to that representation. tical feeling in South Africa? What was note­ worthy ^ was that amongst this whole group The hon. the Deputy Minister said that was there is not one representative responsible political expediency. Is that not representative Coloured organization. of the Coloured people’s point of view? Is that not the voice of the Coloured people The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Is there and is that why they have been expedient one? about it? I shall go further. Dr. Van der Ross has been mentioned. This is what he Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: The hon. the said. He makes it clear that the Coloured Re­ Minister of Defence was Minister of Coloured presentative Council cannot take the place of Affairs. Is this the fruit of his work, namely representation in Parliament which is respons­ that there is not one single responsible ible for the fate of South Africa as a whole. Coloured organization left? Later he goes on to make it clear that, while he can see that certain functions can be given The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: It is as a to the Coloured Representative Council, never- result of your agitation! theless there are other functions which are common to the country as a whole. Therefore Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: After 20 he feels they should still have representation years of Nationalist rule this former Minister somewhere in the Central Parliament. of Coloured Affairs says that there is not one single responsible Coloured organization. What The PRIME MINISTER: What are their a charge against him! wishes in that regard? How do they want to be represented? The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Is there a representative organization? Reply to that Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: We shall deal question. with that later. The hon. the Prime Minister need not be so impatient. However, they are Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: There are a pleading for representation of some kind in number of representative organizations. I am the Central Parliament. Some of them changed going to draw the Minister’s attention to one their minds about the form this representa­ or two just now. What I want to draw the tion Should take. Some of them started off hon. the Deputy Minister’s attention to is by pleading for one type of representation one matter, namely, that Dr. I. D. du Plessis and ended up prepared to settle for another who favoured the abolition of Coloured re­ type; some started off by asking for Coloured presentation in this House was forced to the representatives in this House but were pre­ conclusion, despite all the cross-examination pared to accept Whites; some wanted Com­ by the majority group, that ultimately there mon Roll representation and if they could not must be a super-central body in which Whites have that they would be satisfied with direct and Coloureds are represented. representation on a separate roll. But the point 1 want to say that some of the evidence I am trying to put across is that according in favour of the retention of representation to the evidence of the overwhelming majority m this House is particularly impressive. The of responsible Coloured organizations the hon. the Deputy Minister has sought to try Coloured people want representation in one and prove that Mr. Schwartz contradicted him­ form or another in the central Parliament in self—no doubt he did. But I think he will principle. agree with me that a fair representation of I want to go further and say that the Mr. Schwartz’s evidence was that he stood abolition of the Coloured people’s representa­ for representation in this House. What is more tion in Parliament will be resented by the when he was re-examined later he said “I have vast majority of those Coloured people for already said that we would always want a whom these organizations spoke, as it will be voice in Parliament, for the simple reason resented by a large number of people who that we live together in the same territory”. are . . . When the other members of his group were examined, we find that Mr. Sanders of the The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Free State and Mr. Poley of the Transvaal That statement of yours is altogether incor­ made it absolutely clear that they, too. stand rect. You are not justified in coming to that for representation in Parliament. conclusion. 1279 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1280

Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: The hon. the Coloured councillors would have only certain Deputy Minister may think so now, but by the rights; they would have control only over cer­ time this debate ends he will subscribe to tain matters, while over other matters they another point of view. Because I want to say will have no say whatsoever. Parliament has that I believe that a large proportion of the all the residual rights. Is the voice of the Coloured people were too frustrated even to Coloured man then not to be heard when it give evidence before this commission. These comes to the exercise of these residual rights? will resent it even more. Surely, Sir, the representatives of the Coloured people should have a say in what The MINISTER OF DEFENCE; And then powers we are going to give this council? And you deny that you are agitating! in respect of those matters over which Parlia­ ment retains control, matters of vital import­ Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: Of course I ance to the entire South Africa, Whites and deny that I have been agitating. You see. Sir. Coloureds, should we not hear the voice of this is the principle of improper interference: the Coloured people through their representa­ If the Minister of Coloured Affairs goes and tives in this House? Should they not be here agitates to the Coloured council it is proper to tell what their people think? Surely, Sir, interference but if an Opposition member there is no conflict of interest. How can there makes a speech which is reported in a news­ be? Parliament is the supreme, sovereign paper read by a Coloured man, that is impro­ body. It has the power and it decides. How per interference! I should like to suggest to can there then be a conflict? Should representa­ the hon. the Minister that he should talk to tives of the Coloureds not be heard here when many of those Coloureds who have left South we take decisions on those matters? You see, Africa and should read the evidence of Sir, when I see recommendations of this kind, people who appeared before the commission all I can conclude is that there is a cynical dis­ and who knew those Coloured people. What regard of the political development of the did they say? The hon. the Deputy Minister Coloured people, a development which has should know what part this question of the been going on for more than 100 years here in franchise and their right to vote played in the Cape and for many years in other pro­ their decision to leave South Africa. They felt vinces. I can only conclude that it is a rejec­ that they could never become real citizens of tion, a relegation of the Coloured people to an the country. inferior position. If the Government’s decision on this matter What sort of blueprint are we going to be is contrary to the weight of evidence and con­ left with if this representation is removed? trary to the wishes of the Coloured people, What sort of blueprint will there be for South even if, to put it at its lowest, they do not re­ Africa in the future if Coloured representation sent it—which I believe they do—why then did here ceases? It means that in the first place the the majority group of the commission come to Coloured people are being relegated not only the decision which they have put forward? to a position inferior to that they have en­ They gave two reasons: The one has to do joyed up to now but also to a position inferior with the unfortunate exploitation of the vote, to that of the various Bantu groups. That side and the other with the conflict of interest which of the House has always indicated that it had would arise if the Coloured people were given not wish ever to diminish the political rights representation in this Parliament alongside the of the Coloured people and they gave various Coloured council. They believe that represen­ undertakings to that effect. But their star wit­ tation in Parliament as well will retard the de­ ness, Dr. I. D. du Plessis, said that if the repre­ velopment of that Coloured council. T shall sentation of the Coloured people in Parlia­ deal with this question of exploitation later. In ment were removed it would amount of dimi­ regard to the second reason I want to say at nution of the political rights of the Coloured once that, to my mind and from the evidence people. I have read, the idea that representation in this House will lead to a conflict of interests with The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: the Coloured council and retard its develop­ He did not say that. He said it “could” be. ment simply does not hold water. We, this House, decide what power to give that Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: Mr. Speaker, Coloured council, just as Parliament has de­ I do not think this hon. Deputy Minister is cided what powers provincial councils should ever going to be promoted. Let him go and have. Is there a conflict of interests between read the evidence again. But I want to go fur­ provincial councils and this Parliament? How ther. When I say that the Coloured people can there be? They have one sphere of in­ will then be relegated to a position inferior to fluence and we have another. You go to your that of the various Bantu groups, I say it be­ provincial councillor for one thing and to cause where is there talk on the opposite side your member of Parliament for another thing. of an independent Colouredstan. apart from We have, furthermore, been told that the fact this newspaper cutting? The Bantu people that the Coloureds have representatives in this have been promised Bantustans. Where has House will result in members of the Coloured there been talk of sovereign independence be­ council being regarded not too highly or not ing granted to the Parliament of the Coloured being given that measure of attention which people? No, Sir. Their say in Parliament here would otherwise be the case. But these is to be removed. I say they will resent it, and 1281 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1282

I think that is borne out by the evidence of “One must always remember,” he (Dr. some of the witnesses before the commission. Verwoerd) said firmly, “that the Coloureds But it will mean a third thing, i.e. a depar­ will always be a minority that would be sub­ ture from the blueprint laid down by Dr. Ver- merged in any other country tout we are go­ woerd, the first prominent Nationalist to ac­ ing to provide self-government for them in cept our idea of communal councils and to their own affairs.” apply it to the Cape Coloureds. [Interjections.] “Will the four white representatives of the He did not for one moment feel that the con­ Coloureds remain in Parliament?”—“Of tinued representation of Coloured people in course they will, tout we want to be sure that this House would lead to a conflict of interests they will not toe used toy other political par­ or retard the development of the council. He ties to advance the ambitions of those par­ was at pains to emphasize, in season and out, ties. The Coloured Representatives in Par­ tha-t the creation of a new council would not liament must really reflect what the mean the disappearance of the representatives Coloured people are thinking.” of the Coloured people from Parliament. I “Some people fear you will abolish them have here a report in Hansard, vol. 10, col. altogether.” A quick smile, a dismissing ex­ 4353. The then Minister of Coloured Affairs, pression: “Oh well, that is just politics.” the present Minister of Defence, was speaking on 16th April, 1964, and this is what he said— Sir, that was in 1966, after legislation creating I want to quote now what the hon. the this Coloured Council was on the Statute Prime Minister said as far back as 1962. It Book. has already been quoted here but I want to quote it again for the sake of the record. The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ On 23rd January, 1962, the Prime Minister TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: Drury said (Hansard, Col. 94)— does not know that smile. Nevertheless I want to reply to a few Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: Does the points raised by the Leader of the Oppo­ hon. Minister mean that the late Prime Minis­ sition. The one is that toe said that the ter was misleading him? inference has been drawn that the repre­ sentation of the Coloureds in this House Mr. T. G. HUGHES: Is that what you are will disappear when the new type of suggesting? council for Coloured Affairs is established, that larger and more representative coun­ Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: He shrugs his cil. I never said anything like that, and shoulders. such an inference is not justified. The re­ presentation of the Coloureds in this Par­ An HON. MEMBER: Is he suggesting that liament is simply not relevant in terms of the late Prime Minister was being deceitful? this planning. It will remain in existence as it is. Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: Sir, are the Mr. Barnett: For how long? late Prime Minister’s views to be thrown over­ The Prime Minister: I have said that it board before we have even had one election will remain in existence. Must I say “for­ of this council? Sir, here is what is so interest­ ever”? I repeat that I have no plan at all, ing: The present Prime Minister, in his address that I have no plan in connection with to the Coloured Council on the 4th April, the development already announced 1967—the existing Council—said this— which includes the disappearance of the Coloured Representatives here. I am not Ek wil dit baie duidelik stel dat nie ’n even considering it enkele belofte wat deur my voorganger ge- maak is, nie deur my en my Regering nage- Mr. Hughes: If they have their own kom sal word nie. parliament? The Prime Minister: The hon. member Even a man like Dr. Du Plessis, who favoured looks surprised, tout I have already said it the abolition of representation of Coloureds twice. What I said was that when we have here in Parliament, realized that since Euro­ that parliament, then in my view the peans and Coloureds inhabited the same terri­ white representatives will still be here. Is tory, there would have to be somebody in that clear now? which Europeans and Coloureds took joint responsibility for matters of common concern. Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: “For the record”. He spoke of a super federal body, an umbrella parliament, which would take over certain of The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: What did the powers of this Parliament. If that is so you say about the common roll? why break down the present system when your most expert witness tells you that you will Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: I want to go have to reconstruct it in some way again later? further, and for the sake of the record also, Why not do the sensible thing, the wise thing, I want to read into Hansard what was written and retain the advice of the representatives of by Allen Drury of his interview with Dr. Ver­ the Coloured people in the sovereign Parlia­ woerd— ment which will have to take the ultimate de­ 1283 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1284 cision as to what those rights and powers Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: In fact, Sir, should be? I want to say that the party on do you know what they do? They throw the this side of the House has always been com­ baby out with the bath water, and they recom­ mitted and remains committed to the principle mend that all common political activity by the of representation of the Coloured people in various race groups be stopped. There is only a central Parliament. one significant exception to this recommen­ dation, and it is a most significant exception An HON. MEMBER: On the Common because they do recommend in paragraph 16 Roll? (c) that the Coloured Representative Council should consist of 40 elected and 20 nominated Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: I do not be­ members. Apparently when the Government lieve that that representation should retard interferes in the political activities of a non­ the development of the Coloured Council or white group to the extent of nominating one- should in any way conflict with its interests. third of the members of the Council to re­ Sir, the majority report gives a further present its interests, then that is proper inter­ reason for the conclusions arrived at, and that ference. If any other political party of any was that there was unfortunate exploitation of other white group, perfectly legally constituted, that representation. Sir, if there is unfortunate tries to get a member elected to this Parlia­ exploitation, is that a ground for punishing ment, or somebody sharing its ideas to the those who were exploited by diminishing their Coloured Council, that is improper interfer­ rights while the people who did the exploiting ence. That is what we are up against. But does go scot-free? anyone think for one moment that those nominated by the Government will not be *Mr. S. F. KOTZÉ: Members of the supporters of the Government’s philosophy, if United Party did that. not of every detail of its policy? Sir, there was one witness who told the Commission on page 273 that it was his conviction that if he Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: That does did not support the principle of separate de­ not seem to be just to me. In any event, I velopment he would not have been in the want to ask the hon. the Prime Minister present Council of which he is a nominated whether that exploitation was so serious as to member. Can anyone say that he was wrong? justify the cancellation of any type of repre­ That is why I feel the minority group in this sentation in this House? Let us look at the Commission was correct in refusing even to evidence before the commission. What was participate in the discussions on this particular the evidence of exploitation? In fact, there matter, because they thought that it was im­ was nothing that could not be countered by a practicable. Sir, I am convinced that if the strict application of the existing electoral laws, majority group had felt able to do so, they with the possible addition of two things: A would have produced a new draft Bill and system of general registration for the Coloured would not have submitted a vague set of re­ people and a ban on foreign financial aid. The commendations. I believe that perhaps old evidence given to the commission seemed to Dominee Botha of Malmesbury was correct indicate that the only malpractices had been in certain of his attitudes. He said there were false registrations, of which there were many really two questions you had to ask. Would and for which the people concerned were there be any practical effect if the existing punished, and possibly the passing of certain legal political parties were forbidden to ap­ funds. There was no clear evidence on that proach Coloured voters, and secondly, would subject. If that is the evidence—and I do not it be wise? He said the answer to the first think any single member on that side of the question was that any Coloured political party House will deny it—then that raises the whole would be bound to be a pale reflection of one question as to whether the phrase “improper interference” is capable of definition in a man­ or other of the European parties, and the ner not already covered by the electoral laws, answer to the second was that we are very with the additions I have suggested, and fortunate that this is the case since it has made whether it can be further controlled and con­ for stability among the Coloured people. This tained by legislation. The report of the is my summary, Sir, and not a verbatim report. majority group shows that they thought the Now, I believe that there are alternatives to original Bill was impossible. They watered it these majority recommendations, alternatives down in the most staggering fashion and sug­ which are worthy of consideration and which gested that it should not be proceeded with. should be put before this House. I say by all There is no doubt about that. They then pro­ means let us have a Coloured legislative coun­ ceeded with the task of devising methods, in cil. I will support the Prime Minister in that, their own words, “against improper interfer­ and let us give it extended powers. I would ence by one race group in the politics of prefer to see all its members elected and not another”. In this they seem to have failed one-third nominated. Surely the Coloureds entirely. Nowhere do they define “improper have had political rights long enough to be interference”; nowhere do they recommend spared this ignominy. I would also say let us provisions to prohibit improper interference. develop that council so that the representatives of the Coloured people in the provincial *Mr. S. F. KOTZÉ: We shall then have to council are unnecessary. I will support the watch every member of the United Party. Prime Minister in their removal. And let us 1285 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1286 have a Coloured Affairs Commission and Senators will be elected by popular vote in one liaison between Parliament and the Coloured constituency consisting of the whole of the Legislative Council, through the agency of Republic. Select Committees of Parliament and the Council. But I should like to see the duty to Mr. S. F. KOTZÉ: Is that the minority re­ consult made mandatory and not left purely port? permissive. Having done that, do not let us bluff ourselves for one moment that these Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: We are very developments, however praiseworthy they may well aware that these constituencies are enor­ be, are an alternative to representation in Par­ mous and that the number of voters voting liament. The hon. the Prime Minister said the will be very heavy indeed, but we believe that other day that if you take away their represen­ that is the surest safeguard against malpractice, tation it depends on what you give them because these constituencies are so big and the instead, as an alternative. I agree with every­ numbers will be so large that malpractices will thing the Prime Minister wants to give as an have to be practised on a tremendous scale alternative, if he is going to follow the report and on an easily detectable scale to have any of the majority of the Commission, but do not appreciable effect at all. I know that there are let him bluff himself that that is adequate hon. members opposite who believe that the compensation for representation in this House. representatives of the Coloured people should And why not? Because this House has powers be elected by the Coloured Legislative Coun­ over certain matters of vital importance to the cil. We do not favour that because the body Coloured people of South Africa over which is too small and because, if there were any the Coloured Council has no say whatever. chance of subornation, it will be greater in a body of that size. We do not favour it either The PRIME MINISTER: When you talk because you might find people elected who about representation in this House, what type are not really representative, and they may be of representation do you mean? elected just by one majority group and not be representative of the whole of the Coloured Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: The hon. people. I go on to say that we believe that gentleman need not be so impatient. He will both Coloureds and Whites should be eligible have it chapter and verse. for election. I want to say at once that this is In respect of those matters of vital import­ no new idea. It had the support of many ance to the whole of South Africa, over which political thinkers in South Africa. “Dawie,” the Coloured Council has no say whatever, writing in The New Nation of March, 1968, the Coloured people have a right to be heard at page 7, said— through their representatives in this House, and no case has been made out by this Com­ It was publicly held and propagated by mission, or the evidence before it, for re­ such men as Professor F. J. M. Potgieter, moving that representation in respect of those the late Professor Hannes Bruwer, Willem matters. van Heerden of Dagbreek, who are hardly That is the principle. Now we come to what liberalistic figures. interests the hon. the Prime Minister so much, namely the mechanics. What is the most satis­ The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU factory way for that right to be exercised? We DEVELOPMENT: And Graaff of De Gren- on this side of the House believe that it should del? be exercised by a Coloured electorate which includes Coloured women and which embraces Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: I know the Coloureds over the whole of South Africa, but hon. Deputy Minister will be happy to be that it should be extended only to those counted in that company. But I am going to capable of passing an educational test. As far go further now and tell him that what sur­ as we are concerned, votes for the utterly prised me was that “Dawie” did not say that illiterate is no part of our policy at all. We Die Burger had a number of leading articles believe that this Coloured electorate over the in 1960 favouring that idea. There was a most whole of South Africa should be entitled to comprehensive list given by a political colum­ elect a defined number of representatives to nist last year on this subject, and this is what this House and to the Other Place, namely six he said— to this House and two to the Other Place, and they should be elected on a separate roll. [In­ Among those who favoured direct terjections.] Of the six in this House, four will Coloured representation or foresaw it as a be elected in the Cape Province, one in the later possibility were Dr. H. F. Verwoerd, Transvaal and one in the Orange Free State Mr. M. C. de Wet Nel, two Nationalist and Natal together. editors, Mr. Piet Cillie of Die Burger and Mr. Willem van Heerden of Dagbreek, five HON. MEMBERS: Why? moderators of the Nederduitse Gere- formeerde Kerk, seven theological pro­ Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: The four in fessors of the Nederduitse Gereformeerde the Cape Province will be elected on one roll Kerk, a former chairman of the pro-apart­ in one constituency. That is, the top four are heid S.A. Bureau of Racial Affairs, and a elected and the others fall away. The two number of professors of the Universities of 1287 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1288

Stellenbosch, Potchefstroom and South Administration and Education, who are un­ Africa. Die Burger, which has been the most happy that the United Party has not pressed outspoken propagandist for direct Coloured for common roll franchise for the Coloured representation, has been careful not to re­ people for representation in this House. ject this principle when commenting on the United Party’s decision. The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION: I am not competent to say whether that re­ Everything you do makes me happy. port is correct. Here is a copy of the letter written by the late Dr. Verwoerd to Mr. Men- Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: Look how happy you zies and published in his recent book “After­ look now. noon Light”, at pages 205-6, I understand with the permission of the late Prime Minister’s Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: This sugges­ widow. He says— tion is really based on a misunderstanding of what the policy of the United Party was. Our The Coloured people are gradually being policy was to restore to the common roll in trained in self-government. At this stage the Cape and Natal those male Coloured men separate full municipal government by who would have been on that roll in the Cape Coloureds in their own townships will be and Natal but for the Separate Representation instituted as soon as possible, and then of Voters Act. further steps higher up will be introduced as experience is gained. If the Coloureds The MINISTER OF PLANNING: [In­ were to be represented by Coloureds in Par­ audible.] liament before sufficient progress had been made towards the general acceptance of Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: It was never Bantu separate development as set out above, our policy, not even in the lifetime of the hon. this would only be taken as an encourage­ the Minister of Planning, to extend common ment to break down that development and roll representation to the Coloureds in the to agitate for Bantu representation, and all Transvaal and the Free State. We believe they the dangers of multi-racial government would should be given representation on a separate again have to be faced as set out above. roll and in the Senate. Nor has it ever been Coloured representation cannot be contem­ our policy to extend common roll represen­ plated now—it is one of the possible alter­ tation to Coloured women anywhere in South natives for the future. The one principle Africa. which has been accepted is that as the Coloured succeed in more local govern­ The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: In ment their further progress will be under­ other words, you had six classes of Coloureds. taken. Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: You have a point there. It is no new idea, and I think these views reflect the attitude of the serious-minded Nationalist who justifies the policy of apart­ Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: I believe the heid on the ground that the Bantu will have Minister can count up to six. I do not think separate homelands where they can theoreti­ we can go any further on that aspect. What I cally develop to the utmost of their ability. want to emphasize is that we appreciate there These people can find no similar alternative were certain difficulties in connection with for the Coloured people in South Africa. And common roll representation, and even in the because they can find no similar alternative, minority report of a previous commission on they are prepared to discriminate in favour of this issue we said it must freely be admitted the Coloured man, so that he can be repre­ that common roll representation was not a sented by his own people in this House if he panacea for all ills or for overcoming all so wishes. You see, Sir, what is interesting cleavages. Sir Herbert Stanley, a former about the evidence before the commission was governor of Ceylon, stated in evidence that the that the great majority of representative wit­ abolition of separate representation and its re­ nesses wanted representation in Parliament, placement by common roll representation had some on the common roll, some on a separate not wiped out Ceylon’s very violent racial roll by direct representation, but nearly all antagonisms, which have their bases in religious who asked for a common roll amongst the differences. Coloureds were prepared to accept separate direct representation. Many were of the opi­ The PRIME MINISTER: When did you say nion that that would assist in combating mal­ that? practices. This embodies the proposals which I believe could be put before this House. I Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: When this know they will be subject to criticism, criti­ minority report was written in 1949 or 1950. cism which we have heard so often, and per­ What is more important was that that state­ haps I might anticipate some of the criticism. ment was based on the findings of the Soul- It might facilitate and shorten the debate. bury Commission, which reported on the con­ 1 know the first criticism will be from those, stitution of Ceylon after the constitution re­ like the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu commended by the Donoughmore Commis- 1289 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1290 sion had been put into operation. There it was sure that changes will not readily be made, we found that the difficulties were such that the have given the electorate an undertaking which commission, while it still hoped to retain a we are prepared and would like to write into common roll, recommended that constituencies the Constitution. That is that no change must should be so delimited, territorially and with be brought about in either the number of the regard to community of interest, to ensure that representatives of the non-Whites or in their minority interests were represented. They say system of representation without a reference quite categorically in their report they realize to the white electorate by way of a referendum the delimitation will have to take place, not on or a general election on the issue, both of a. territorial basis but with regard to communal which will require a substantial majority to interests. They say this may be called a mix- bring about a change. I may say that the ture between territorial and communal delimi­ United Party is satisfied that in the event of tation. any threat to Western standards in South With that in mind, and having in mind also Africa or the future position of the white race, the development in recent years amongst the the white electorate can be relied upon to Coloured people, one found that there was a stand firm and to protect its position. There need for some representation for the Coloured has also been the criticism that representation people in the northern provinces and foi for the Coloureds as proposed by us will pre­ Coloured women throughout South Africa. pare the way for larger representation and Evidence before a commission appointed by direct representation for other groups. My the party and before the recent State Presi­ answer to that is that inevitably the various dent’s commission, made it evident that undet groups in South Africa are going to demand the impact of 20 years of Nationalist Party more for themselves as time goes by. The rule and Nationalist Party policy . . . Bantustan Governments are already asking for more ground and more rights and wanting The PRIME MINISTER: Before this com­ generally more than has been given them. It mission? will be for the sovereign Parliament of South Africa to decide whether their demands should Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: The two sat be met or not. I say that a United Party simultaneously. I do not have the exact dates, Government or any government worthy of its but the one commission reported a little before name will oppose any demands which are not the other. As I said, it was evident that under in the national interest. As far as we are con­ the impact of 20 years of Nationalist Party cerned the principle of the need for the civil­ policy the Cape Coloured people were moving ized leadership which the white people can give away from the Whites and developing to an South Africa is an overriding national interest. ever-growing extent their own group conscious­ I know that there will be people who say that ness. I think one thing that was exemplified by if you have granted direct representation to the evidence before this commission, is that the Coloureds, it is indefensible to refuse it to there were only three points of view canvassed others. My reply to that is that the Coloured by the witnesses. One group wanted a common people are a unique population group in roll for everyone throughout South Africa; the South Africa. They are a separate population second group wanted direct separate represen­ group. They are closer to the Whites than tation, often accepted as an alternative by any other group in South Africa. We have some common-roll protagonists; and the third always regarded them as having a special rela­ group, a small minority, wanted the abolition tionship to the Whites. They "have been our of the present representation in Parliament. natural associates in South Africa. They are There was nobody who wanted to return to the only other Afrikaans-speaking community the status quo before 1955. In those circum­ in the world. There are 2 million of them stances the Party at its national congress in to-day and they follow the Western way of November decided to make a change and life. Most of them are Christians. I think that accept direct representation on a separate roll the refusal to appreciate these facts and not to for the Coloured people throughout South reflect them in policies, is a denial of stateman- Africa. I am happy to say that that decision ship. has the unanimous support of everyone on this Then we will be asked how we propose to side of the House. put this policy into practice. The answer is The second criticism which is often levelled that when we are elected to power we shall do at the proposals we have made, is that the our best to introduce these constitutional representatives of the non-Whites in Parlia­ changes. We will see to it that only changes ment will form a pressure group and in the submitted to the people by way of a referen­ event of more nearly equal representation of dum or a general election have any chance of Government and Opposition in this House, success. Our object will be to prevent hasty they will use their position to force changes to changes being made. I think, for example, of the advantage of their group. I must concede the Bantustan policy. at once that this may well be attempted. The most likely claims will be for additional re­ ♦The PRIME MINISTER: You now want presentation and possibly for a change in the to protect yourself against yourself. system of representation. But the fact that there is pressure does not necessarily mean Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: No, I want that concessions must be made. In fact, to en­ to protect the Government against another 129) 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1292

Prime Minister doing what the late Prime be contact at select committee level, but their Minister did when he announced the Bantu- power to liaise would be permissive and not stan policy in Parliament without any prior made mandatory. There would be contact consultation with the congresses of the Na­ through the Coloured Affairs Commission an tionalist Party. I believe that such arbitrary through the Minister. But is this Parliament changes in policy should not be made by in­ which controls the destiny of these people, just dividuals, but by the people. as much as it controls that of the Whites, ever The last question which hon. gentlemen op­ really going to know what those people are posite asked was what advice the United Party thinking? I have no hesitation in saying that would give the voters who will be able to vote it will never know if the Minister concerned in such a referendum. The answer is that the does not want it to know. That is the situa­ United Party’s advice to the nation will b# tion in which we are going to find ourselves. such as to ensure that no change will endanger I want to know what {he Coloureds have done the principle of white leadership in South to deserve this treatment. They are the group Africa. closest to us. They have a long history of I think I have shown that we appreciate loyalty to us. they speak our language, they some of the difficulties with which our policies have a Western culture and they are the most may have to contend, but what about difficul­ developed non-White group in South Africa. ties connected with the policies suggested by They also have a long history of loyalty to the majority of the commission. Does the the Whites. If we ever needed friends on this Government appreciate them? We will have a continent with its vast numbers of non-White Coloured Legislative Council realizing that it people, we need them now. Here is a group can never have a real say in matters of vital anxious and ready to be friendly, as appears national importance which affect the life of so evidently from the evidence given by some their own people. They are bound to become of the witnesses, I think particularly by Dr. a hot box of frustration without a safety valve. Van der Ross on pages 112 and 113 of the Do the hon. members opposite realize how report. The history of the political rights of much damage they can do to the loyalty and the Coloured people makes pretty sorry read­ the attitude of the Coloured people? By con­ ing. I do not think it is necessary to go into trast the policy we suggest offers those people it. I want to ask tihe hon. the Prime Minister a voice in matters of vital national importance, what effect this suggestion of the majority on provides a safety valve, affords an opportunity the commission is going to have on South to answer and cope with unreasonable de­ Africa’s image overseas and on his outward mands and stupid claims and creates an atmo­ looking policy. Does he realize that much of sphere in which you can develop a common the work that he has done in the last 18 loyalty to South Africa. months may be nullified? Does he think that anybody outside South Africa is going to be­ The PRIME MINISTER: Is there to be one lieve for a moment what was said in the nation? majority report, i.e. that a Coloured legislative council with no power to discuss or legislate Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: I am glad on the most important matters that affect our that the hon. the Prime Minister asked that national life, will, and I quote, “completely question. I think that he is quoting from some­ fulfil the political ambitions of the Coloured thing which Die Burger published and which people”? Surely, it is time we had a little is not a true reflection of what was published realism in our public affairs. I believe the at the congress in Bloemfontein. Prime Minister, if he thinks about it, cannot accept the recommendations of that majority The PRIME MINISTER: That was said at group. your congress. Now, Sir, what about the Indians? The majority group recommends that there be Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: That is so established an enlarged, expanded and recon­ incorrect that Die Vaderland actually accused stituted Indian council on the same lines as us of stealing the Nationalist Party slogan. We the Coloured Legislative Council. have the cuttings in this regard and other speakers will deal with this matter. It is rathei The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: sad to find the Prime Minister quoting that Not only the majority group. statement. I know that Die Burger has been running it for some time without much suc­ Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: We accept cess. that. We support that. We have no wirries 1 want to say by contrast that I do not pro­ about that. But what does worry me, and per­ pose to motivate what I have just said with haps the hon. the Deputy Minister can help further readings from evidence. I believe that me, what of the points of contact? Are there the acceptance of the majority group report going to be select committees? Is there going would mean that Coloured and White will go to be an Indian affairs commission or not? forward in one territorial entity here in South Africa because quite frankly I do not believe Was it your intention to recommend it or not? these stories of a Colouredstan. I believe that they will go forward in one territorial entity The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: It with no effective meeting point. There would is clear. You can read it for yourself. 1293 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1294

Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: Mr. Speaker, no doubt at all that there is not a person I regret it. It is quite clear to me that it does in this House who will disagree with that not seem to have been considered. The mino­ statement, and that includes the hon. the rity group did recommend that there should Leader of the Opposition and all those sitting be . . . on his side, because it happens to be true. That statement is this: No matter in how The PRIME MINISTER: Based on the favourable a light we try to present the posi­ same principles; that is what they recommen­ tion. no matter how—as the hon. the Leader ded. of the Opposition did in his speech this after­ noon—we have talked about representation of Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: Mr. Speaker, Coloureds in the past, the fact remains that I looked at this very carefully. It is not clear, the Coloureds of the Republic of South and the Minister would not give me his state­ Africa have, as a whole, never had political ment. He can say yes or no. rights in South Africa under any régime, neither the old colonial regime in its various The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: forms and in the various provinces, nor any Do you know who moved that? It was the former government in this country. I think member for Yeoville! the hon. the Leader will grant me that. He will grant me that, speaking only of those, Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: The hon. male and female, over the age of 21, there member for _ Yeoville has signed a minority are easily 700.000 Coloureds, according to the report in which there will be contact by way figures which have been furnished to me, who of a select committee of the Indian council could have political rights and who could exer­ and a select committee of Parliament. cise them if they had them. Of those 700,000 there have been 33,000 to date who have had The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: It a certain measure of representation in this was unanimously accepted and was moved by House. This is what the figures and the facts the hon. member for Yeoville. tell us. In other words, it is a bluff and it would be dishonest of anyone of us to want Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: Mr. Speaker to pretend to the world outside or to ourselves I asked the hon. the Deputy Minister and he that the Coloureds have enjoyed political rights could not give me an answer. But we believe in South Africa. That is not so. that we should go beyond that. We believe What does this commission now want to do. that there should be representation for the In­ and what is the National Party prepared to do dian community in this Parliament. We be­ through its acceptance of this commission’s re­ lieve that time has come. We believe that re­ commendations? It is to grant political rights presentation should be by two white represen­ to the Coloureds of the Republic of South tatives, elected on a separate roll, in this Africa for the first time—and herein lies the House and one white representative elected on historic significance of the recommendations a separate roll, in the upper House. of the commission, recommendations in regard to this matter ^ with which hon. members on Mr. J. E. POTGIETER: That is one of the the opposite side agreed. The historic signi­ reasons why you lost the 1948 election. ficance lies therein that it is being done under the leadership of the National Party, and that Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: That is 20 the United Party agrees with it. What they years ago. I want to say that that is part of had before. Sir. was not political rights; it the federal concept for South Africa. I believe was only a small group that retained it as a that we cannot stop still with the Chief Whip legacy of the previous century, and it had of the Nationalist Party at a point 20 years been given to them for a specific reason. It ago and think that there has been no develop­ was not for the purpose of exercising political ment since then. Even he is not the man he rights. We have debated this matter in the was in those days. He has developed as others previous debates. It is therefore not necessary have developed. for me. nor will my time permit me, to cover We believe that the proposals we put before that ground again. But the fact of the matter the hon. the Prime Minister are not only is that we would be deceiving the world out­ worthy of serious consideration, but worthy side. and everybody, if we maintained that the also of acceptance over and above those put Coloureds in South Africa had had political by the majority group who sat on this com­ rights. They simply did not have such rights. mission. I am grateful and pleased that the United Party agrees with us that we should now confer *The PRIME MINISTER: Mr. Speaker, to­ political rights upon the Coloureds. No harm wards the end of his speech the hon. the will be done to South Africa’s image. South Leader of the Opposition asked what was Africa can only benefit by it in that the world going to become of our image overseas if we outside now knows that this Parliament is pre­ accepted the recommendations of this com- pared to grant the Coloured group political r’ ssion. I want to begin furnishing the hon. rights. That is the significance of this com­ the Leader with a reply to that question at mission. The hon. the Leader of the Opposi­ once. I want to furnish him with a reply tion has now appended to this that if these after making a certain statement, and I have four representatives who are at present sitting here should disappear, it would be a blow 1295 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1296 and would be wrong. When the hon. the wrote himself—this is not what he is reported Leader of the Opposition puts forward that to have said; his name is appended to this— argument he does not realize how he is offend­ in the Star of 4th December, 1967, with refer­ ing the hon. member for Yeoville, because if ence to the Party commission which preceded the hon. member for Yeoville had had his the other commission—as he has now told us way, they would already have disappeared. —had the following to say. This is the Party But I must say that the real scapegoat is the committee of which the hon. member for hon. member for Transkei. According to page Cape Town (Gardens) was the chairman. The xxix of the commission’s report the hon. mem­ hon. member for Yeoville said— bers for Yeoville and Transkei, at a meeting which was held on Tuesday, 29th August, 1967, This committee found that not a single at 9.30 a.m. wanted to have them disappear. responsible Coloured leader wanted to re­ On that occasion the hon. member for Trans­ turn to the position as it was before 1955 kei moved the following motion (translation)— when only some Coloured men in the Cape and in Natal had the vote. That this Commission recommends— He was aware of this. And yet the hon. mem­ (a) That the Coloured voters in Natal and ber came forward in this same commission the Cape Province be restored to the and moved that those Coloureds should be Common Voters’ Roll on a qualifica­ restored to the Common Voters’ Roll, on tion basis. which they were prior to 1955. And if this recommendation had been ac­ ♦Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: On what date did cepted and had been approved by Parliament? I move that? Then my two hon. friends, the Coloured Re­ ♦The PRIME MINISTER: The date on presentatives, would have been gone now. which the hon. member advocated this was 29th August, 1967. At that stage the commis­ Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: [Inaudible.] sion had finished hearing evidence. The com­ mission’s deliberations were then in progress, *The PRIME MINISTER: I am coming and it was towards the end of its proceedings back to that. I first want to deal with the that he had to take up a standpoint. And the standpoint of the hon. the Leader of the hon. member for Yeoville told us himself Opposition, and when I have finished with that they had the benefit of not only this that, I shall tell the hon. the Leader what commission’s evidence, but that of the other the standpoint of the Government is in re­ one as well. Not a single Coloured wanted it. spect of this report, I want to take the view Nor does that appear to be the case from here that the new policy which the hon. the this commission’s report. And yet the hon. Leader has extolled to such an extent . . . I member for Yeoville moves that the Coloureds hope he keeps it a long time. It is difficult of the Cape Province and Natal be restored for us to keep pace if the policy changes so to the Common Voters’ Roll. On what grounds frequently. One has other business to attend did he do so? For the sake of interest let to as well. Take for example the new policy me just point out how half-baked this policy which they found at Bloemfontein and which is with which the United Party has at last the hon. the Leader of the Opposition ex­ come to light. If one has various policies, then tolled to such an extent. I want to say that surely there is at least one to which one gives it is the most half-baked policy I have ever priority. One cannot give priority to all. Now, heard of. And the cook of that half-baked I take it that of all the various policies which policy is the hon. member for Yeoville. I there are, this is the one to which the hon. shall prove this to you as I go along. Here member gave priority, because the motion and there the hon. the Leader of the Opposi­ was moved by the hon. member for Transkei, tion mentioned certain things, which also ap­ while the hon. member for Yeoville voted for peared in the newspapers. The Leader of the it. On 29th August he voted in favour of the Opposition told us that the United Party had Coloured voters in Natal and in the Cape Pro­ had the benefit of having two commissions, vince being restored to the Common Voters’ the one which we are dealing with now, and Roll on a qualification basis, and that repre­ a Party commission which coincided with it. sentation in the Senate should be given to Have I understood it correctly? It is so? the Coloureds of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State on a separate Voters’ Roll. That *Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: Virtually. is not “this House”, on which the hon. the Leader of the Opposition placed so much ♦The PRIME MINISTER: They virtually emphasis. No, one now has two kinds of coincided. I think the Party commission was Coloured representation. In the Transvaal and a little prior to this one, which came a little in the Free State one now has Coloureds later. Is that correct? whose voices will only be heard in the Senate, whereas in the Cape Province and Natal one ♦Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: That is correct. has Coloureds who must only be on the Common Voters’ Roll. And that is all. ♦The PRIME MINISTER: That is correct, says the hon. member for Yeoville. Now, the ♦Mr. S. I. M. STEYN: You have not done hon. member for Yeoville. in an article he your homework. ! 297 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1298

♦The PRIME MINISTER. It stands in the *The PRIME MINISTER: Sir, I am deal­ report. But, as I have said, we now have ing with hon. members of the Opposition now, various policies on the opposite side of the and when I have finished with them I shall House. One must of course give priority to come to Dr. Verwoerd’s, and my own, policy. one of those policies. The hon. member for Hon. members need not be concerned about Transkei gave priority to that policy which that. Here the United Party intended not only was supported by the hon. member for Yeo- to introduce Coloured representation into this ville. But when it was voted down, they said: House, but also to introduce Coloured repre­ But wait, we have many policies. If you do sentation into the Provincial Councils. When I not want this policy, then we have another asked the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in one. Then we simply give you another one. the debate the other day, “What about provin­ And then the hon. member for Peninsula was cial representation?” he said, “No, we are so kind as to introduce a motion in order abandoning it; we are doing away with it.” to give them a policy. He is very largely the Can the hon. the Leader of the Opposition father of the policy which the United Party mention one single newspaper to me in which has now found. I want to congratulate him this question of provincial representation was on it. But immediately afterwards, on the very mentioned? Of course, I was not present at the next day after this motion had been moved secret discussion which the hon. the Leader the hon. member for Peninsula moved that of the Opposition held with his supporters, and the Separate Representation of Voters Act I do not know what happened there, but no should disappear, and he moved that in terms publicity was ever given to the question of of the Act of 1964 there should be one large provincial representation. It was never discus­ separate roll fcr all Coloured voters. He said, sed. Why did the hon. the Leader of the Oppo­ according to his motion, that six members sition not make a statement on such a cardinal should be elected to the House of Assembly aspect of policy? from the ranks of their own registered voters or from the ranks of registered white voters Mr. T. G. HUGHES: When the Prime Min­ on the basis that four such members should be ister made his speech at Windhoek, and I think elected to represent the Cape Province, one also at Durban, about the future representa­ to represent the province of the Transvaal, tion of the Coloured people, did he not say and one to represent the provinces of Natal that he was not binding his commission? and Orange Free State jointly. That is pre­ cisely the policy which the United Party now ♦The PRIME MINISTER: I stated my has, and which the hon. the Leader of the standpoint in general, in the same way as the Opposition has also put forward here. It was hon. the Leader of the Opposition stated his. given to them as far back as 29th August of But the hon. member for Transkei was the last year. The hon. the Leader of the Opposi­ representative of the United Party on that com­ tion need not even have gone to Bloemfon­ mission. tein; he could simply have gone to discuss the matter with the bon. member for Peninsula in his office, and he would have had a policy ♦Mr. T. G. HUGHES: No, not of the party. ready to hand. This one can still forgive. But We were members of the commission. then the hon. member for Peninsula moved a further motion; he moved that from that ♦The PRIME MINISTER: Sir, I find that Coloured Voters’ Roll, or from the ranks of this is becoming even more interesting now. the voters on the White Voters’ Roll, further The hon. member now wants to dissociate members should be elected, i.e. two members himself from his party. I do not blame him to represent the Coloured population of the for wanting to do so. Cape Province in the Cape Provincial Council, and one member to represent the Coloured ♦Mr. W. V. RAW: What did the Deputy population of the Transvaal. Natal and the Minister of Police say? Orange Free State in the Provincial Councils of these three provinces. But the hon. mem­ ♦The PRIME MINISTER: Let us return to bers for Yeoville and Transkei who sat on this very interesting turn the debate has now the commission on behalf of the United Party taken. The hon. member for Transkei said that and who spoke on behalf of the United Partv. he had not sat on the commission as a United wanted to go further; they were not merely Party man. In other words, he has one stand­ satisfied to follow the example of the hon. point as an individual and another standpoint member for Peninsula by bringing six mem­ when he sits on the United Party side. bers here to the House of Assembly. They Mr. T. G. HUGHES: Why have a select went further; they wanted to introduce two committee if that is your attitude? into the Provincial Council of the Cape Pro­ vince, and one in each of the Provincial ♦The PRIME MINISTER: Mr. Speaker, hon. Councils of the other provinces. Where is the members on the opposite side came onto that policy now which the hon. members were select committee as the representatives of the then advocating? United Party.

♦An HON. MEMBER: Where is Dr. Ver- ♦An HON. MEMBER: That is not what the woerd’s policy? chairman of the commission said. 1299 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1300

♦The PRIME MINISTER: Hon. members cates having eight Bantu representatives in this of the Opposition can do what they please, but Parliament. But then, on page 32 of the report, such chopping and changing in speaking and he comes forward with his “third stage” and voting, until one ultimately had the policy that there he advocates a common voters’ roll of was found in Bloemfontein, I have never seen Bantu, Coloureds, Indians and Whites. I ask before in my entire political career. the hon. the Leader of the Opposition: Has he repudiated the hon. member for Karoo, who Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: When Mr. is a member of his caucus and of his party Strijdom voted in 1936 . . . [Inaudible.] yet? Is he prepared to repudiate him? The hon. the Leader of the Opposition gave us certain ♦The PRIME MINISTER: Mr. Speaker, we assurances. What value can we attach to his are back in 1936 now, and the hon. member assurances if leading members of his party knows that what he is saying now, is not cor­ adopt attitudes such as this, and he, who is rect. [Interjections.] the Leader, does not even repudiate them? [Interjections.] I shall repudiate anybody, who­ ♦Mr. SPEAKER: Order! ever it might be, who acts contrary to the policy of the National Party. The hon. the ♦The PRIME MINISTER: After having wit­ Leader of the Opposition must not evade the nessed these antics of the United Party in this question now; I am asking him: What value regard, let us now come to the hon. member does he think the electorate of South Africa or for Karoo. You will recall. Sir, that what the I can attach to his words if he does not even hon. member for Karoo said on a former occa­ have the courage to repudiate a senior member sion in this House is in essence precisely the in his party who propagates this kind of same as what he is now saying to this commis­ policy? [Interjections.] But let us proceed. I sion in his memorandum, but on that occasion can so well understand—because I am human— he hid behind the Coloureds and said that it why the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was their standpoint. Now he has presented it now wants to protect himself from himself by as his own standpoint as a member of the means of the entrenchments he wants to write United Party, and what does the hon. mem­ into the Constitution. And above all, I can well ber’s standpoint amount to? He is a United understand why the hon. the Leader of the Op­ Party Member of Parliament. He is not a com­ position gave me the reply he did in fact give mission member who has the fig leaf which me towards the end of the debate on the the hon. member for the Transkei has. What motion of no confidence. I asked him: “Will did the hon. member for Karoo say? He said— you. who have previously intimated that the pressure became too much for you, be able to withstand the pressure with this new policy of Stage one yours?” My proposition therefore is for Coloured ♦Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: As your people to be entitled to elect six or eight party withstood it in regard to the Bantustan Coloured men to Parliament, the Indian policy. people to be entitled to elect two or three Indians to Parliament. ♦The PRIME MINISTER: Sir, I did not interrupt the hon. the Leader of the Opposi­ This is the standpoint of a United Party Mem­ tion when he was speaking; I asked him a few ber of Parliament, and he is not a mere back­ questions for the sake of clarification. I can bencher of whom one need not take any notice; understand only too well now why the hon. the he was the leader of the United Party in the Leader of the Opposition said to me at that Provincial Council. He was their key man time with a sigh of relief: “We believe we are there, and he was brought over here with a strong enough”—that is, to withstand the pres­ great fanfare of trumpets from that place. He sure . . . occupies a leading position in the United Party. What value can one attach to the assurances of the Leader of the Opposition under these cir­ ♦Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: But you did cumstances? He comes forward here and tells not withstand it. us that these representatives will be Whites, and leading figures within the United Party de­ ♦The PRIME MINISTER: He said: “We be­ clare that they must be Indians. That is what lieve we are strong enough, Mr. Speaker, be­ the hon. member for Karoo said. But the hon. cause we know we have the support of that member for Karoo went much further than side of the House”. He thinks he will be strong that. He came to the “second stage”, and there enough if he has the support of this side of he introduced the Bantu within the White areas the House, but he cannot feel strong when he into this House with their eight representatives, looks at the hon. member for Karoo. Can you who would be “Africans”. This from a leading see now, Mr. Speaker, why the hon. the member who is still sitting within the ranks of Leader of the Opposition made an appeal to the United Party. This is what the sixpence the people outside to accept this new policy of policy of the United Party stated, but if you the United Party and to vote for the United say so they kick you out. This is what the six­ Party, a party with such a history and such a pence policy stated, and here a leading mem­ background that nobody will have any respect ber of the United Party comes along and advo­ for such a policy or believe in it. 1301 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1302

*Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: They have The commission recommended that this body no respect for your policy. should have the power to make legislation ab initio instead of having preliminary proclama­ *The PRIME MINISTER : We now come to tions of which mention is made in the present the question as to what the standpoint of the Act, and the Act will be amended in order to Government is in regard to this report of this carry the commission’s recommendation into commission. There are four matters which I effect. The commission further recommended must reply to in this connection. The first is: that the legislative powers be extended from What about the political representation here? time to time. This is being accepted. To the The second is in respect of the channel of com­ management of finances, local government, munication which there will be between this education, welfare and pensions and rural Parliament and the Coloured Council. Then areas, the proposed legislation will add the there is the question: What about the present following: Any other matter which is added by representatives? Finally there is the question proclamation by the State President, provided of interference. But before coming to that, I that the Minister shall lay a copy of such pro­ must naturally deal with the question of the clamation upon the Table in the Senate and in Coloured Persons’ Representative Council. the House of Assembly within 14 days after The commission made certain recommenda­ publication thereof if Parliament is in ordinary tions. Most of these recommendations have session, or if Parliament is not in ordinary been accepted by the Government. In other session, within 14 days after the commence­ words, where legislation already exists for the ment of the next ensuing session. The Com­ establishment of a council most of the mem­ mission further recommended that specific bers of which will be elected, this will be pro­ powers be conferred upon the council in con­ ceeded with and, where necessary, additional nection with the levying of taxes. Of course, legislation will be introduced. I shall not moti­ one cannot have two tax-levying machines. vate all these matters now; I shall merely men­ Nor do I think that this is what the Commis­ tion what decisions have been taken. My col­ sion intended. We cannot see it as a tax-levying league the hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs machine, but if this council wishes to impose will provide the necessary motivation when he specific levies, it will be granted the necessary participates in the debate. The commission re­ authority, but the Minister concerned will give commended a name for this council, namely the necessary explanations in respect of this the Coloured Legislative Council. The attitude matter as well. of the Government is that we want to retain The functions in Appendix B, which cover an the present designation, i.e. the Coloured Per­ expenditure of R46 million for 1967-’68, have sons’ Representative Council, for the time being to be transferred. This the Government has because this is the name by which the Coloureds accepted, and as the council gets into its stride, know this council, and because they have still further functions can be transferred to it. shown their attachment to this name. But if In other words, for the first time a representa­ after its establishment the new council should tive Coloured council is being constituted on decide that, for sound reasons which it may which the majority of the members will be advance, it wants another name, that other elected, which will have considerable funds at name can be given to that council. The com­ its disposal, and which will have powers to mission recommended that the name of the adopt resolutions and make rules and regula­ Executive Committee be changed to “The tions in regard to those matters which are pecu­ Executive”. This recommendation has been liar to them. That is why I have said that we, accepted. The commission recommended that not only this side of the House, hut the entire the chairman of the Executive should be elec­ Parliament, can really take pride in the fact ted. It is the view of the Government that he that now, for the first time in our history, sub­ should be designated by the State President. He stantial political powers have in fact been con­ must be designated for very good reasons, inter ferred upon the Coloureds. The Commission alia, because he will be the person responsible also made recommendations, and quite rightly for handling the finances of that council, which —and discussions have also been held on this will be a considerable amount, between R46 matter both within and outside the commis­ million and R50 million. For very good reasons sion—in regard to the channel of communica­ it has been decided that he will be appointed tion which should exist between this Parlia­ by the State President, but my colleague will ment and that Coloured Persons’ Council. Let motivate this further. me say at once that it is my view, and that of The commission recommended that there be the Government, that there should indeed be 40 elected members and 20 nominated mem­ communication between that Coloured Persons’ bers, instead of the 30-16 laid down in the Bill Council—and what I am saying here now ap­ and the 12-15 as it is at present. The Govern­ plies in principle to the Indian Council as well ment has accepted this recommendation. In —and this Parliament, this House of Assembly. other words, it will be a council in which the Now one asks oneself whether representation majority of members will be elected and the such as the present is the best way. minority will be nominated. The commission The hon. the Leader of the Opposition tried made a recommendation in regard to the prin­ to make out a case for it. My view is that he ciple of loading and unloading, and this will in did not and that one cannot make out a case fact be introduced, although, as I have been for it. I am aware that one may say that that informed, it is already written into the old Act. communication one must have may be a 1303 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1304

Coloured Affairs Commission, just as one now the Government has consulted them, it will has the Bantu Affairs Commission. One may decide. I believe that that is the correct way. say that it may be a select committee. One I think it is a very fair way. One is now bring­ may say it should be some kind of standing ing a new council into being. A very large committee. But, to link up with the interjection measure of the success with which it will made by the hon. the Minister of Defence, the exercise its functions will depend upon the truth of the matter is that there is no represen­ communication it has with this Parliament; tative Coloured opinion in South Africa to-day. and I think that it is wrong to say to it in ad­ One can consult individuals and one can con­ vance that this is its channel of communica­ sult bodies, but the fact of the matter is that tion, without having consulted it in that re­ there has never been a body of which one spect. I therefore repeat that as far as this could say that it spoke on behalf of the Colour­ channel of communication is concerned, the eds and in regard to which one could accept Government will decide and introduce legisla­ that what it said reflected the feelings of the tion if and when the Council has made known Coloureds. We have never had anything like to the Government its attitude in regard to the that. We are going to have it for the first time matter. now, when we have brought this council into Then there is this question: What about the being. representation here in Parliament? Let me re­ peat that, as in the case of the Coloured Per­ Mr. G. S. EDEN: Is that not a condemnation sons’ Council outside, the three representatives of your own Union Coloured Council? here have represented the Coloureds to the best of their abilities. I want to pay tribute to *The PRIME MINISTER: The hon. mem­ the late Mr. Barnett and the other two repre­ ber need not be so concerned about it. As I sentatives who are still here. They have put have said, the fact of the matter is that, not­ the Coloureds’ point of view in this House as withstanding all the good work which the pre­ they saw it. I doubt whether it was always in sent council has done—and it has done won­ fact the Coloureds’ point of view. Nor have I derful work—it is a nominated council with a always accepted it like that. But I accepted minority of elected representatives. I would be their good faith when they presented the grateful if the hon. member who is making Coloureds’ point of view, as they saw it, in the such a fuss now would participate in the de­ House. The question now is what is to be­ bate and tell us what he meant by this memo­ come of them. randum he submitted to the commission. But I have said that there must be a channel of it was the hon. member, more than any other communication. I agree with the commission person, who belittled that council whenever he that Coloured representation as we have it could. I say that in view of all the good quali­ here at present, with the handful representing ties which that council had. and it had many, the Cape Province, is not the answer. Conse­ I want to express my personal gratitude and quently my standpoint is that, in the light of appreciation towards those council members the increased representation which is being for opening up the road and making it pos­ granted and in the light of the communication sible for us, through their responsible actions, which is going to be created, the present to come forward now with these further steps. Coloured representation, as it exists here, must If that council had not acted so responsibly, go. The question that now arises is, “When a Parliament would have been hesitant about must it go?” Under the circumstances I do not proceeding to these further steps. But pre­ think it is fair to let it go before something cisely as a result of the exceptional way in has been substituted for it. Consequently I which they acquitted themselves of their task, believe that the council should first be insti­ it became possible for us to have this elected tuted, as will be done next year, and that that council with a majority of elected members channel of communication by means of which which we now have. The Government’s atti­ the Coloureds can be heard should first be tude therefore is that it will not take a deci­ established. Incidentally, that is my reply to sion at this stage as far as that channel of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, who communication is concerned. There must be a made a great fuss and complained that “Their channel. There are various alternatives which voice won’t be heard.” This House will be one can put forward, but the Government’s made thoroughly aware of the Coloureds’ attitude, and I have no doubt that this will be point of view. With all due respect to the re­ welcomed by all, is that it will not decide what presentatives who are here now, I believe the that channel of communication will be until Coloureds’ point of view will be stated more such time as it has had an opportunity of con­ effectively because it will be stated by the sulting with this new council which will now Coloureds themselves and will not be con­ be instituted. veyed to us here at second hand. But leave it at that. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition *Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: Will you recommend and I differ on that, and apparently we shall anything to them? always differ on it as long as he retains his present policy. *The PRIME MINISTER: I shall consult The question as to what must become of with them. I shall present them with the the present representatives now arises. I say various alternatives, and I shall confer with that I do not think it would be fair to say that them about the alternatives, and then, after they must go now. It is therefore my view that 1305 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1306

the term of office of the Coloured Representa­ ♦Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: But I quoted tives should he extented to the expiry of the from 1964. term of this Parliament. In this way no vacuum will be created. On the contrary. It ♦The PRIME MINISTER: You gave me the will be possible to have the necessary supple­ date. 10th April, in the no-confidence debate. mentation. The present representation here will What is more, the hon. the Leader debated this therefore continue in this House for the dura­ point, as did the hon. member for Transkei. tion of this Parliament. That was the standpoint of the National Party. I come now to the accusation made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to the effect ♦Mr. T. G. HUGHES: He changed it subse­ that in accepting the principle of this com­ quently, when I asked him again. mission’s report I have deviated from the standpoint of my predecessor, the late Dr. Verwoerd. The hon. the Leader read out cer­ ♦The PRIME MINISTER: I want to go fur­ tain statements here. I have also read all those ther. Towards the middle of column 4192 we statements, but I read them in the correct con­ find the following words of the late Dr. Ver­ text, and the context in which they must be woerd— seen, is the situation as it had developed up to that moment, in other words, the councils We have already said also that as a result which then existed. The hon. the Leader of of the establishment of group areas we want the Opposition could himself have found the to give the Indians also full control over reply to the question which he put to me, be­ their separate residential areas so that they cause he had the same Hansard in front of can have their own local government on him. To tell the truth, he even gave it to me parallel lines, as we envisage for the across the floor of this House in bis motion of Coloured community. no confidence. He referred me to the Hansard of 10th April, column 4193. I shall read out Then Dr. Steenkamp asked, “And representa­ what is written there. The hon. member for tion here?” Dr. Verwoerd’s reply was— Transkei put a question to the late Dr. Ver­ woerd in this House, which read as follows— No, no representation here. A moment ago I said very clearly in connection with Will the Coloureds also eventually lose the Coloureds—and I also say it in connec­ their Parliamentary representation and be tion with the Indians—we limit their devel­ in the same position as the Indians and the opment to that of a council which will exer­ Bantu in the white areas? cise authority over their own affairs, similar to the powers now enjoyed by the provin­ It is very clear, not so, that this is the same cial authorities. question which the hon. the Leader is asking me now? It is the same question. My prede­ As a matter of fact, in some respects they are cessor’s reply was as follows— getting more powers than provincial authorities have. This Coloured Persons Council is getting Until we have reached the stage of devel­ substantive powers. That is why I told the opment to which I referred, where the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that it de­ Coloured Council fully performs its func­ pended upon certain things. I readily concede tions, no decision will be taken as to what that he would have an argument and would further steps should be taken in regard to be able to make out a case against me if I the Coloured representation in this Parlia­ simply abolished Coloured representation here. ment, but it will remain as it is now. I told him it depended upon what was being given to the Coloureds in lieu thereof. Once We are going to reach this stage of develop­ again with due deference to the hon. Coloured ment; we shall reach it when the Coloured representatives here—what the Coloureds are Persons’ Representative Council has been now getting is worth infinitely more than what established; we are going to reach it when the they have had up to now. no matter from channel of communication has been estab­ what angle one views the matter. It is my con­ lished. The hon. the Leader must not tell me viction that the Coloureds themselves will see now that it was a passing remark which he did the matter in that light But we need not not hear, because he debated it. argue about that now, because this Coloured representation will remain until the expiry of *Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF; What is the the life of this Parliament. In the meantime reference? this other body, the Coloured Persons’ Repre­ sentative Council, will come into being, and ♦The PRIME MINISTER; It is the same re­ we shall have many opportunities of hearing ference as the one you gave me, namely 10th opinions and weighing them up against one April, columns 4192 and 4193. another, and I have no doubt at all that the standpoint of this side of the House will be ♦Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: Of what proved in practice. year? ♦Dr. G. F. JACOBS: Will the existing vacan­ ♦The PRIME MINISTER : 1961. cy be filled? 1307 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1308

♦The PRIME MINISTER: No, for very as far as this is concerned, I have the support good reasons this vacancy will not be filled. of the other side of the House as well. In 1 shall tell you why not. Because I am still of other words, now that the Government has the same opinion as the one the hon. the done what the commission recommended, it Leader of the Opposition and I shared on cannot simply wash its hands of the matter. I occasion, namely that there is improper inter­ think that there is a further duty resting on ference in the affairs of the Coloureds. I am this Parliament, and that is to try to prevent still of that opinion. Therefore, since the com­ and eradicate, if one can, this blatant, dange­ mission has recommended that the whole of rous interference as quickly as possible and the Bill which was before it should not be without dragging in other people. One will not proceeded with, this will be done. 1 agree with always be able to prevent it, but it is one’s that, because with this new dispensation which duty to prevent those things which can be pre­ is now being introduced, the need for it falls vented. Accordingly the Government will con­ away to a very large extent. But, Sir. in my sider taking the necessary steps in due course, opinion it does not fall away entirely. The and we shall return to this House in this con­ Cabinet is still considering the legislation nection. which must be introduced in that connection. To sum up, therefore, Mr. Speaker, you will I shall tell hon. members along what lines I permit me to say that I believe, as I said at am thinking when I say that something will the beginning, that we have a duty towards have to be done in this regard. My view is the Coloured people in the political field as that no member of one population group may well. I believe that we are fulfilling that duty acquire membership of a political party of towards them by granting them political rights another population group. I really believe that for the first time as Coloureds of the Repub­ the United Party will agree with me that there lic of South Africa over those matters which is no need at all under this dispensation of a fall within their domain, which are very dear Coloured Persons’ Council for Coloureds to be to them, and which mean a very great deal to allowed to belong to the political parties of them. Let us grant them these rights, so that Whites and Whites to the political parties of by so doing we shall not only grant recogni­ Coloureds. I believe that those who do so, do tion to them, but also lead and educate them. so with sinister motives. Those motives bode 1 believe that we are doing the right thing. I ill for South Africa and its people. 1 also be­ believe that we all have reason to be deeply lieve that Whites should not be allowed to act grateful for the fact that the Leader of the as electoral agents for Coloured candidates for Opposition and I agreed at the time to ap­ the Coloured Persons’ Council, just as I be­ point the commission. lieve that Coloureds should not be electoral I wish to express my gratitude and appre­ agents for white candidates. We have had it ciation towards the commission for the good before . . . [Interjection.] Yes, the hon. mem­ work which they have done over a period of ber for Sea Point has had experience of it. many months. In particular I want to express my gratitude towards the chairman. He has ♦Mr. J. A. L. BASSON: Look, I am not been a brilliant chairman, apart from being a guilty! particularly able Deputy Minister. I do not think he deserved the accusation made against ♦The PRIME MINISTER: No, Sir, let me him by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, say in all fairness that the hon. member for t think that was quite unnecessary. It was not Sea Point fell victim to it. I therefore think it funny. Why he said it, I do not know. I be­ is a good thing, if one’s thoughts move in this lieve that this commission, under the leader­ direction, that one should prevent that sort of ship of this particular chairman, has rendered thing. a great service to South Africa, a service which I also believe that one’s thoughts should will benefit South Africa, but a service which, move in this direction: Is it fair for Coloureds in particular, will benefit the Coloured popu­ to incite Whites against other Whites during lation of South Africa as no other single action an election, or that Whites should incite on their behalf by any South African Govern­ Coloureds against other Coloureds? T think this ment has ever done. kind of thing is only done with sinister motives, and the Government will have to Mr. A. BLOOMBERG: Mr. Speaker, I per­ look into this. sonally am sorry that the hon. the Prime Minister intervened in this debate so early. I ♦Mrs. C. D. TAYLOR: What about Daan- was hoping that he would first have listened to tjie Scholtz? some of the cogent arguments which I am ♦The PRIME MINISTER: What about sure are going to be forthcoming before Graham Eden? The hon. member need not making up his mind on some of the very im­ go all the way to Springbok for an answer. All portant issues that emanate from this com­ she need do is skip one bench and she will mission’s report. I am afraid that, as a result have the answer immediately! of the speech that we have just heard from Sir, I believe that another danger we have the hon. the Prime Minister, the suggestion to face up to is the question of money from will be made that it lends colour to the accu­ abroad which is being given to political parties sations that have been repeatedly forthcoming here in South Africa. This is a form of inter­ that the Government has, long prior to the ference which we cannot tolerate. I think that. report of the commission, made up its mind 1309 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1310

with regard to the future political rights of the the separate roll which has been established Coloured people. by Parliament. I am highly flattered by the I sincerely hope that even at this late stage remarks made by the hon. the Prime Minister the hon. the Prime Minister will reflect very when he said that the crux of what I suggested | carefully before taking an irrevocable step in in my resolution eventually formed the basis I regard to the future political rights of the of the policy of the United Party. I want to | Coloured citizens of South Africa. Before I say that I was not present when the United deal with the various aspects of this Report, Party adopted that policy and I had absolutely I should like to deal with one or two of the nothing to do with it. matters raised by the hon. the Prime Minister in regard to the various motions proposed by An HON. MEMBER: So they actually stole ! those who formed the minority on this com­ it. mission. But before I do so, 1 should like to say publicly that I associate myself with what Mr. A. BLOOMBERG: I am nevertheless the hon. the Prime Minister had said in pay­ very flattered because that does form the basis ing tribute to the chairman of the commission. of their policy. I should like to say that it was a great pleasure Having said that, I now want to deal with and privilege for me to serve under the chair­ this Report as I see it. As I see it the com­ man. I was struck very forcibly by the cour­ mission’s majority report can be divided into teous way in which he received all representa­ two distinct categories. The one is to expand tions and by the courteous manner in which the Coloured representative council. The other he allowed Coloured people to come forward is to abolish the representation of the Coloured to make their representations and generally by people in the central Parliament. The first the fairminded way in which he presided over recommendation, namely to expand the the deliberations of the commission. I should Coloured persons representative council, is in like to associate myself with the tributes paid principle one which I am sure will receive to him by the hon. the Prime Minister. the wholehearted support of the entire House. The hon. the Prime Minister dealt with the I do not think that there is a single member in motions moved by certain of the members this House who would oppose the idea of ex­ who formed the minority on the commission. panding the powers of the Coloured persons I should like to say this to the hon. the Prime representative council. The second recommen­ Minister immediately. I think if is necessary dation, which to my mind is the important one that I should explain and place on record the at this stage, is in my view so retrogressive circumstances under which the various resolu­ and in conflict with the solemn undertakings tions were proposed. The Prime Minister will given by the Government to our Coloured appreciate that in a commission of this sort people, that it merits the most careful scrutiny you do not just move resolutions. There must before any action is taken. It is in that spirit of necessity be a full discussion on all the that I hope the hon. the Prime Minister will aspects raised in regard to the representations pause before he gives effect to his suggestions made to the commission. All the issues must this afternoon in regard to that aspect of the be discussed in their fullest amplitude. Leng­ Report. The second issue involved in this Re­ thy discussions took place among all the mem­ port is to my mind one of the most important bers of the commission over a long period matters ever to have confronted Parliament. I dealing with the various matters which even­ will even go as far as to suggest that the issue tually formed the subject of these resolutions. is more important and will have a more far- Every aspect raised by the people who made reaching effect than the many constitutional representations to us was canvassed. When it issues with which our country was confronted became obvious to the minority members of in the 1950’s. At that time the country was the commission that we were confronted with faced with the constitutional issues involving almost a stone wall attitude on the part of the the removal of the Cape coloured citizens majority members who were going to recom­ from the Common Voters’ Roll, a right which mend the total abolition of the representa­ we thought was entrenched and which they tion of Coloureds in this House, we obviously had enjoyed for over a century. The proposal I had to explore every means to try to induce was then to place them on a separate com­ the majority members to reach some form of munal roll of their own. If went without say­ compromise in that regard. It was in those ing that that was a grave diminution of rights circumstances that these resolutions were at that time but at least the Government had moved. In the first instance this applies to the the fairness to preserve for the Coloured resolution asking for the restoration of the peoDle continued representation of some form Coloured in the Cape and Natal on to the in the sovereign Parliament of their own coun­ Common Roll. When that failed I put forward try. It will be recalled that the Coloured people the resolution that under the separate roll . . . of the Cape enjoyed some form of represen­ tation in our Parliament for over a century. The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: But even at the time when the Government You did not want to be the father of the child. was responsible for inflicting these constitu­ tional crises upon our country one after Mr. A. BLOOMBERG: I shall come to that another, they took pains to ensure that this in a moment. I put forward the resolution that formal representation of the Coloured people the Coloureds should have the opportunity of in the Parliament of South Africa would con­ electing representatives to this House under tinue, albeit in an emasculated form. To-day,

25-A.H . Vol. 1 1311 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1312

however, if effect is given to the recommen­ volume of evidence given by white persons dations contained in the majority report of the and white organizations. Any fair-minded per­ commission on this aspect of the matter, it son who reads the evidence given before the will mean that even this meagre form of re­ commission and the voluminous memoranda presentation in our Parliament will be denied submitted to it, must come to the conclusion, our Coloured citizens. It will therefore be ap­ and a just one, that the abolition of the re­ preciated that the issues before us to-day are presentation of our Coloured people in this infinitely graver and more important to the Parliament was supported only by a very small Coloured people and the country as a whole number of people who appeared before the than the problems which faced us in the 1950’s commission—only a very small number of when we had the constitutional crisis. I there­ them. The greatest part of the evidence strongly fore suggest that a greater duty and respon­ supported tihe viewpoint that our Coloured sibility now devolves upon the Prime Minister citizens should continue to have some defined particularly, and indeed upon every member form of representation in our sovereign Parlia­ of this House, to examine the proposals ment and that to deny them this basic right, a earnestly and sincerely so as to ensure that we right which they have enjoyed for more than do not take any decision that may bring our 100 years, would be a gross injustice and country in to any further disrepute and which most detrimental to race relations in the can be attacked as a debasement of our na­ country. tional honour. I do not propose to go into the detail of the It is in that spirit that I propose to examine evidence given before the commission. My the recommendations of the majority report time is limited and I have of necessity to skim of this Commission in order to see whether over some of this evidence. But let me say any case has been made out which can justify once again most advisedly that an examina­ our stripping our Coloured citizens of their tion and analysis of the evidence justify tihe small remaining representation in Parliament. declaration made in the minority report, i.e. I repeat that this was vouchsafed to them that the overwhelming volume of evidence throughout all our discussions in the period given by the Coloured people before the com­ 1950 to 1958 and its continuance was re­ mission was against their being deprived of peatedly guaranteed to them by every Prime representation in the sovereign Parliament of Minister of this Government and every re­ South Africa. And, despite what the hon. the sponsible spokesman of this Government since Deputy Minister has said, I want to say that that time. I propose to examine the case put they will bitterly resent such a deprivation. Let forward by the Government members of the me quote from the evidence of one person Commission to see whether we are justified in in this regard, from the evidence of no less a breaching the pledges and solemn undertak­ person than Dr. I. D. du Plessis. It will be seen ings given on so many occasions to our from page 321 of the commission’s report that Coloured citizens. In examining these propo­ I asked him the following question— sals for a fundamental and irrevocable change in the political rights of the Coloured people, one must bear in mind a very cardinal prin­ This commission has heard evidence from ciple. The hon. the Deputy Minister who was various Coloured political parties and in chairman of the commission will bear with me practically every instance they have asked in that regard. The cardinal principle is that that they should not be deprived of some the onus of proving that a change is neces­ parliamentary representation, at least not sary and justified is upon those who seek to until such time as the council can function introduce the change. The onus rests on those satisfactorily on its own. It is on these who are asking Parliament to introduce this grounds that I want to suggest to you that if change. I venture to suggest that nowhere in their representation in Parliament is taken this voluminous record does there exist any away by one fell swoop overnight, it would valid reason to justify or necessitate the pro­ engender a lot of resentment amongst the posed change. As one who sat on this com­ Coloured people. Do you agree? mission from its very inception and who took a very keen interest in all the deliberations of To this Dr. du Plessis Replied— the commission, I have no hesitation whatso­ ever in declaring now that the recommenda­ I agree with you that quite a number will tions in the majority report are against the feel resentment. overwhelming weight of evidence. I then put this question to him— Dr. C. P. MULDER: That is untrue. I think the general concensus of opinion Mr. A. BLOOMBERG: Mr. Speaker, I am amongst them was that their present parlia­ prepared to allow this record to go to any in­ mentary representation should continue for dependent judge or lawyer and let him deter­ a period, say 10 years, and that the whole mine whether what I have just said is correct position should be reconsidered at the end or not. I repeat that these recommendations of that period. The way that they reasoned are against the overwhelming weight of evi­ was that by that time the Coloured Repre­ dence given by the Coloured people and the sentative Council could have developed Coloured organizations to the Commission, sufficiently so as to justify a rearrangement as well as being against the overwhelming of the set up. 1313 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1314

To this he replied— If you were to go to the Coloured people to-day and tell them that as from now the I would go so far as to say that they have representation of Coloured people in Parlia­ a case. To take away the parliamentary re­ ment is going to cease, do you think you presentation at the same time can be inter­ would be able to carry the Coloured people preted as a diminution of rights. with you? This comes from Dr. I. D. du Plessis, a To this he replied— former secretary for Coloured Affairs. There­ fore I say that we are justified in having said in Quite a number of Coloured people are our minority report hat the overwhelming prepared to give separate development a volume of evidence is in support of our re­ sporting chance. But if I have to fight an commendation. election and tell my voters that there will be In the light of this fact, and again bearing in no representation of the Coloured people in mind that the onus is on those who seek to the central Parliament, I will be rejected. bring about the change, are we not entitled to The reason why they will reject me is that ask what justification is there for the recom­ the Coloured people have come to attach mendations contained in the majority report. I much importance to that representation. feel it is necessary for me to emphasize that Through the years they have come to even those Coloureds and Coloured organiza­ accept it as a matter of goodwill and of tions who have of recent years been strongly good faith between White and Coloured »nd supporting Government policy have declared Coloured and White. in no uncertain terms that they are opposed to the elimination of Coloured representation The Prime Minister can repeat as many times in this Parliament. The Leader of the Opposi­ as he likes that a representation of the tion has already referred to certain of the evi­ Coloured people in this Parliament has not dence given by the present chairman of the Col­ served any useful purpose. I say it is a matter oured Council, Mr. Tom Schwartz, when he of good faith. Here a Coloured man himself appeared before the commission as chairman has said that the Coloured people have over of the Federale Kleurling-Volksparty. We all the years come to accept it as a matter of know that Mr. Schwartz in all his public goodwill and good faith. statements has declared himself to be an In the light of this evidence, clear evidence ardent supporter of this Government and its by Coloured supporters of the Government’s policy. But notwithstanding this, it is interest­ policy, and in the light of the overwhelming ing to note what he said before the commis­ corroborative evidence given by the vast sion. On page 149 of the commission’s report majority of persons and institutions which I put the following question to him— appeared before the commission, how can we in all conscience agree with the recommenda­ Is one of the reasons why you have been tions put forth in the majority report in this able to get this measure of support amongst connection? In paragraph 16 of the majority the mass of the Coloured people, the fact report the members who signed it states: “After that in terms of the existing law the Coloured careful study and consideration of the memo­ people have some voice in the central Par­ randa and the evidence submitted to it . . . ,’’ liament of this country? they recommend that the present system oi representation of Coloureds in Parliament be To this his reply was “That is so”. My next discontinued. But to-day the hon. the Deputy question was— Minister himself admitted that he ignored most of the evidence and took an objective view of Have you any doubt in your mind that the matter as a whole—in direct conflict _ with if for some reason or other, best known to that statement in paragraph 16 of the majority itself, the Government should decide to report, a report which he as chairman signed. abolish this representation of the Coloured people in Parliament it would be a retro­ The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE, OF gressive step alienating a lot of the goodwill FINANCE AND OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS: of the Coloured people? fhat is nlaving with words. To this his reply was— Mr A. BLOOMBERG: These words are I have already said that if I were to_ agree simple English words and they can speak for to such a proposal I might as well disband themselves. Let me repeat: If the evidence is my party. I would not have a platform to go analysed by any independent fair-minded in­ dividual it is humanly impossible to arrive at to the people. the conclusion that the weight of evidence in Mr. S. F. KOTZÉ: Political expediency. any way justifies the conclusion arrived at by the majority of the members of the commis­ Mr. A. BLOOMBERG: The other bit of sion. evidence I want to draw attention to is the evidence given by the Conservative Party, Mr. The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Fortuin. On page 138 I put this question to How can one reject evidence without having him (I only quote part of the question)— considered it? 1315 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1316

Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: You tell us. this Coloured Legislative Council with greater powers to initiate and pass laws concerning the Mr. A. BLOOMBERG: I do not know. That Coloured people, and I am certain that the is something you can explain. In any event, I members of the commission were unanimous state unhesitatingly that the overwhelming in making that recommendation. At the same volume of evidence given by the majority of time, Sir, the Coloured leaders realize that witnesses before the commission, White and such a legislative council could never assume non-White, is against the abolition of the re­ the status of a sovereign parliament, and it is presentation of the Coloured people in Parlia­ that aspect that I want to impress upon the ment and, _ further, that such a deprivation hon. the Prime Minister. By no stretch of the would be bitterly resented by them. imagination can this Coloured Legislative I think it is necessary for me to give the Council who are going to have limited powers House briefly a summary on general lines of to deal with routine matters affecting the daily the representations that were made to the com­ lives of their own people, be regarded as being mission by responsible coloured people. As I equivalent to a Parliament. They felt in those saw the position, these leaders have this to say; circumstances that there should continue to be firstly, they appeal to the commission to re­ some form of representation whereby the gard the position of the coloured people of Coloured people would have some direct say South Africa as totally different from that of in the sovereign Parliament of their own the Bantu; secondly, they emphasize that the country. Sir, I personally felt, and I am still of Bantu, who have their own homelands, may that opinion, that it would take quite a num­ be able to obtain political satisfaction in their ber of years for the proposed Coloured Coun­ own territories; thirdly, they emphasized that cil to function fully as a legislative body, even the position of the coloured people was totally in connection with matters concerning their different in that the coloured people were part own people. The Coloured leaders themselves and parcel of the indigenous, western-orien­ acknowledged that it would take several years tated population of this country; the religion before they would be able to gain adequate and the language of the coloured people are experience in dealing with the administration broadly speaking the same as those of the of public affairs affecting Coloured citizens. Whites; they have no homeland other than Dr. I. D. du Plessis, who is an expert on this the homeland which they share with the white matter, said so specifically. There is no doubt people of South Africa, and in their case there in my mind that under proper guidance and can be no question of territorial separation with the help of the white people and of the or partition; fourthly, and most important, Government of the day this Coloured Council numerically speaking, the coloured people con­ will ultimately be able to play an important sist of approximately two million souls and part in the daily routine matters affecting the this figure is too high a percentage of the total Coloured people, and this council ultimately population of the common homeland for the might be able to participate in talks about coloured people to be ignored and not to be their own political destiny. But I am equally given some share in determining the destiny sure that by no stretch of the imagination can of the general community of which they form this Legislative Council ever assume the status a substantial part. That, generally, is a sum­ of a sovereign parliament, and in those cir­ mary of the representations made. cumstances I am convinced that it would be a retrogressive step to deprive our Coloured Sir, in all fairness, I feel that I must admit people of continued representation in this that the Coloured witnesses and Coloured central Parliament. In my view it is not only organizations acknowledged the great advances fair and just but absolutely essential that our that had been made under the Department of Coloured citizens should have and continue Coloured Affairs in overcoming the social, to have some defined form of representation economic and educational differences between in our sovereign Parliament. A people num­ the Coloureds and the Whites of this country. bering nearly two million out of a total of Si In all fairness I feel that it is necessary to state million Western people in South Africa cannot —and I do so with a great deal of pleasure— be ignored and they are entitled to have some that the responsible Coloured people paid form of representation in the sovereign Par­ tribute to the effective steps taken by the De­ liament of their own country. Sir, to abolish partment of Coloured Affairs in improving this representation of our Coloured people in the economic position of the Coloured people. Parliament, to my mind, would be a serious I was very glad to hear from the hon. the breach of the moral obligations which the Prime Minister this afternoon that it is still his white people of South Africa have assumed mtention to go even further than what has towards the Coloured people over many years. already been achieved in that regard. In fair­ It would be a breach of the pledged word ness I want to say also that they felt that repeatedly given by our Prime Ministers and through the establishment of an effective, other Nationalist spokesmen to our Coloured democratically elected body such as the pro­ people. I say that we cannot and dare not cast posed Coloured Legislative Council, which the this integral part of the white people of South hon. the Prime Minister has spoken about, Africa outside the nation of this country. The much more could be achieved in dealing with hon. the Prime Minister has pointed out that the affairs of the Coloured people. I agree although they had this representation on the with that statement completely. All the re­ Common Roll and thereafter on the separate presentations supported the establishment of roll they have not achieved much. 1317 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1318

The PRIME MINISTER: Do you concede The PRIME MINISTER: Because there was that it is only a small minority of the Coloured no alternative. people who have this right? Mr. A. BLOOMBERG: Sir, the alternative Mr. A. BLOOMBERG: Yes, I do, but this open to the hon. the Prime Minister is this: is a right which we have given to them and Build up your council by all means; we will all which they have enjoyed now for over 100 help you. But that is no alternative to repre­ years. I think it is morally wrong to take it sentation in Parliament. Let that council go away from them. Sir, the modern tendecy is to ahead; let us build it up to the fullest possible extend laws in favour of liberty, and whilst extent and the time may come when that 1 appreciate what the hon. the Prime Minister council may come along and say to the Prime intends doing, in enlarging the scope of this Minister, “We do not want any further repre­ council and in giving them more and more sentation in the House”. In confirmation of powers, I say that until such time as the mem­ this public announcement made by the late Dr. bers of the council themselves, when they are Verwoerd the Federal Council of the National­ able to deal with their own political affairs, ist Party in January, 1961, issued a public come along and say to the Government that statement. I cannot quote the whole statement they do not require any more representation in but, among other things, they said that what Parliament, the Government should go out of Dr. Verwoerd had said in the two recent state­ its way to ensure that the Coloured people are ments formed an accurate reflection of the represented in this Parliament. Nationalist Party’s policy. They then went on to say— Sir, time does not permit me to-day to deal with the many solemn promises made To leave no doubt at all, the Federal and the moral obligations undertaken by the Council now specifically reiterates that the white people of South Africa, as voiced by party accepted and continued to accept as a our leaders throughout the years, with regard point of principle that the Coloureds must to the continued representation of our not be represented by Coloured people Coloured people in Parliament, in some form where representation exists, namely in Par­ or another. I am sure it is not necessary for liament, and in the Cape Provincial Council. me to recall all the solemn assurances and They must be represented there by Whites. undertakings given by the nation’s leaders, now all of revered memory, but I think it is [Time expired.] necessary for me to recall, for the purposes of this debate, a unanimous decision taken by this Government and published to the world on the *Mr. J. W. VAN ST ADEN: I think that the 8th September, 1960. In this declaration it was hon. member for Peninsula did not listen to announced that a Cabinet committee on the hon. the Prime Minister’s important state­ Coloured Affairs and a committee appointed ment, because even he is remaining here; by the Cape Congress of the Nationalist Party Coloured representation is not being ter­ “have furnished a report to the Cabinet who minated. Even he is remaining here; he is still have now had an opportunity of considering being given charity, and he will remain here the unanimous recommendations which came until such time as a link with this House is from these important committees”. The late created in consultation with the Coloured Dr. Verwoerd had this to say— Council to be elected, which will represent the Coloureds in South Africa for the first time. This link will be created by way of consul­ The Government has for some time been tation, and I think this is a tremendous con­ giving particular attention to the position of cession which the hon. the Prime Minister has the Coloured people and to positive made. This is what the United Party has quar­ measures to improve their position. At the relled about all these years. What more does final consideration it has had the advantage the hon. member for Peninsula want? I think of reports from both the special Cabinet that he can disappear quite happily from this Committee and the committee appointed by House when his term expires, because I be­ the Cape Congress of the National Party. lieve, no matter how good he is, that a better Because attempts have been made to create link is going to be introduced. confusion with regard to the existence and activities of these committees, it should be Sir, I cannot agree with the hon. member stated that their findings are in agreement, about what happened on the commission. The unanimous, and form the basis of this hon. member says that they made the pro­ analysis. If may be added that both com­ posals contained in this report after delibera­ mittees and the Cabinet, as well as the tion. It is rather odd that the United Party Deputy Minister concerned . . . members were so ready as to come forward with their proposal first; they did not even give the Government members a chance to The present Minister of Defence— come forward with a proposal. They came forward with their proposal first, and immedi­ . . . who is mainly responsible for Coloured ately afterwards the hon. member for Penin­ affairs, were agreed that the representation of sula came forward with his. You will see in Coloured people in Parliament by Whites the minutes too that this is the sequence in shall remain as it is. which the proposals were made. Sir, I should 1319 28 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1320

like to put one question to the hon. the Leader members of the United Party on the com­ of the Opposition: What image of South mission was that we should return to the Africa does he want in the outside world? Common Voters’ Roll. They did not defend What harm can these recommendations of the this representation, and even the hon. mem­ commission, and even the acceptance of these ber for Peninsula did not defend it. Here is recommendations by the Government, do to his proposal in writing. What did he advo­ the image of South Africa? I believe that the cate? He advocated that the representatives hon. the Leader of the Opposition wants to see of the Coloureds should be Whites or an image of South Africa in the outside world Coloureds. He did not stand by the present based on his policy of race federation and position. No one stood by the present posi­ integration. But this is surely not the image tion and this is clear from the minutes—not which we on this side of the House want in the United Party, nor the Coloured representa­ the outside world. The image of South Africa tive who was on the commission. I want to which we want to see in the outside world is invite any member of this House to examine the image as advocated by this side of the the memoranda that were submitted to the House. What we want to present to the out­ commission, and there were 47 of them. I side world in the display window of South now want to make this assertion. A memo­ Africa is the policy which has now been randum is the considered opinion of people. followed for two decades here in South Africa, When people or a body draw up a memo­ namely the policy of separate development, randum, they are committing their considered the policy of justice for all race groups in opinion to writing. With a witness the posi­ South Africa. If that image is projected to the tion is quite different. A clever questioner outside world, it cannot do South Africa harm, can lead a witness in any direction he chooses. because under this policy of separate develop­ The man preceeding me leads him in a certain ment South Africa has developed into the direction, and then I come after him and lead most peaceful country in the world. him in the direction I choose. Sir, I just want to dwell for a moment on the Now, I have taken a look at these memo­ background to this commission. Why was this randa and I just want to quote a few of commission appointed? There had been im­ them briefly. There is the one submitted by proper interference in the politics of the the Conservative Party, on page 11 of the Coloured people in South Africa. This was Report. This is a Coloured political party. admitted in this House, also by the hon. the They want to retain representation in the Leader of the Opposition and by the hon. white Parliament, but the representatives must member for Peninsula, when this House unani­ not be politicians; they must be experts. The mously decided, with the exception of the hon. Trade Union Council of South Africa (page member for Houghton, that a commission 26) wants the Common Roll for all adult should be appointed to investigate the ques­ Coloureds. The Labour Party of South Africa, tion of improper interference. The hon. mem­ the party of which Dr. Van der Ross was the ber for Houghton opposed it, because her leader, and which he represented before the party interfered not only improperly but also commission at the time, (page 41 paragraphs indecently—and evidence substantiating my 16, 23 and 24) would prefer to have the Com­ claim was submitted to the commission. mon Roll, but as an alternative, ten members in the House of Assembly and four in the *Mr. S. F. KOTZÉ: They were nearly as Senate, but they must be Coloureds. This is bad as the United Party. a large Coloured political party. It did not advocate the retention of the present position, *Mr. J. W. VAN ST ADEN: That was the as the hon. member for Peninsula would have commission’s eventual finding after we had us believe, but an entirely new principle. In­ deliberated for almost two years. Virtually stead of white representation here, there must everyone felt unhappy about the previous be representation by Coloureds. Then there is piece of legislation, because interference by the District Six Association, quoted here on one race group in the politics of another race page 45. They want the abolition of the pre­ group cannot be combated properly as long sent representation in Parliament. On page 50, as the members of one race group are repre­ paragraph 15, we hear from Mr. S. Dollie, sented by members of another race group. and he is not just any Coloured who came That is actually why this commission was ap­ to give evidence. Mr. Dollie was at one time pointed. a city councillor of Cape Town and a member I now want to make the following state­ of the Cape Divisional Council. He is still a ment on the basis of this evidence. Of all the member of the Coloured Council at present. witnesses who appeared before the commission, He says that the Coloureds would prefer a hardly any advocated the current representa­ Coloured representative council to Parliamen­ tion. neither did any memorandum. Not one tary representation. The view of the Federale single witness stood by this representation, not Kleurlingvolksparty, of which Mr. Tom even the United Party. On what basis did Schwartz is chairman, on page 60—the hon. they take their decision on that commission? the Deputy Minister has already quoted it— Surely it must have been on the basis of the is briefly and clearly stated, and it boild down evidence submitted to the commission, but to this, that they cannot see of what use the what did they decide? They did not stand by present white representation in the Republican this representation. The decision taken by the Parliament is to them. They say that it is of 1321 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1322 no use; it is worth nothing to them. Whereas not their Party’s policy either, was it? What Dr. Van der Ross’s party has only really estab­ is even worse, is this. I would rather say lished itself in the Cape, this Federate Kleur- that it could be United Party policy, because lingvolksparty has branches throughout the on the basis of the evidence they could not Republic. I think that if there is one Coloured have presented such a report. Surely the group who spoke representatively on behalf of majority of the witnesses did not ask for a all Coloureds in South Africa and in all pro­ return to the Common Voters’ Roll. What vinces, then it is these people. They said that have we had in the past? In 1951 we had they would prefer a Commissioner of the Separate Representation of Voters Act, Coloured Affairs to serve as a link between not so? I must go back a little in history. the Government and the Department, and What happened then? The United Party between the Coloured Representative Council plunged South Africa into a constitutional and the Department of Labour, because the crisis. They created a furore. They brought present representation in Parliament was of all and sundry together in the United Front. no use to them. What is the essence of what The Torch Commando, the Liberal Party, Dr. I. D. du Plessis advocated in his memo­ the Communists, the Progressives, the A.N.C., randum? [Interjection.] But I have told you the Springbok Legion, Solly Sacks, Moses that I am purposely not dealing with the Kotane, Michael Scott, the whole lot were evidence because the memorandum represents brought together in that United Party. They the considered opinion. On page 79 he says established a fund of R2 million and they that anv political system for the Coloureds in spread the most pernicious political propa­ South Africa, at this stage at any rate, is ganda possible in this country and in the determined by the guardian. Sir, the political outside world. And after two decades, 20 years situation of the Coloured in South Africa has afterwards, they come along and propose on always been determined by the guardian. The a responsible commission that this country re­ British colonial policy was to give the turn to the Common Voters’ Roll. The hostile Coloureds the franchise in 1853—did the world opinion with which South Africa is still Coloureds ask for it? No, the guardian gave faced to-day, was born in the days of the it. When the guardian abolished the Indian United Front and in the dispute about the franchise in Natal in the 1890s had the Coloured franchise on the Common Voters Indians asked for that to be done? No, the Roll. The first clash with the police in South guardian abolished it. The Leader of the Op­ Africa occurred in front of these Parliamen­ position said that we ought to be ashamed tary buildings in connection with, the separate of this report, but I say that if I was the representation of Coloureds. Michael Scott, Leader of the Opposition, I would be bitterly Solly Sachs, Sam Kahn and all those people ashamed of the minority report. The United who belonged to the United Front fled the Party members on that commission are in the country to continue the fight from abroad. position to-day that they cannot advocate in What has the same United Party now done this House what they set down in writing m after two decades? After two decades it leaves the commission’s report. Sir, I shall tell you the Coloureds in the lurch and decides at its why I think they found a loophole to escape central congress that it no longer stands by through at Bloemfontein. What they pro­ the Common Voters’ Roll. After two decades posed in the report has been rejected repeated­ they fall in behind us and say that they too ly by the white electorate of South Africa. are now in favour of separate representation. But what is more, the Common Voters’ Roll Do you know what the result is of the opposi­ has been rejected by the great majority of tion of the United Party to separate, represen­ Coloureds in South Africa. There are only tation two decades ago? The result is the ter­ a few snobs who still want it, but the vast rorism which we are experiencing to-day. This majority of Coloureds do not want it What thing comes from outside, from people who I find the most distasteful of all, and of which fled the country, people who were members I say I would be ashamed, is that on the 29th of the United Front. They have been the September this report was signed and those prompters and they have been the supporters. three hon. members of the United Party What did the Coloureds have on the Com­ handed in their minority report, yet, if I am mon Roll in the past? It is only in file past correct, about two weeks later, round about two decades under the National Party Govern­ the 13th October, the United Party changed ment that the bitterness and hatred which existed between the Whites and the Coloureds its policy. before 1948 have disappeared. I would not *Mr. W. V. RAW: May I ask the hon. say that there was hatred as such, but there member whether the recommendations of the was indeed bitterness, and if it had continued, majority on the commission did in fact repre­ it would have turned into blatant hatred, be­ sent Nationalist Party policy? cause there was an exceedingly great deal of bitterness. Under that Common Roll the *Mr. J. W. VAN STADEN: Sir, a Nation­ Coloureds were the most frustrated group in alist has only one heart, and he does not South Africa, nor was there any group that have two faces either. It gives, expression to was deeper in the mire. On a Common Roll my innermost feelings as a Nationalist. [Inter­ under the United Party they were doomed to jection.] No. it was not my Party s policy, but this United Party recommendation was poverty and misery. 1323 2 8 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1324

Now the question arises, how do we en­ important that the system be terminated [In­ visage the future? The hon. the Prime Minister terjections.] has replied in that connection. In 1960 the socio-economic plan for the coloured popula­ I repeat that what we are introducing now tion was announced, and I believe that with it is not a solution for all time. A solution for a light dawned for them. I say here and now all time has never been found for anything. that both the Coloureds and the Whites can There will be consultations again. We now have work on that programme, and also on the a programme to tackle; we -have work for 20, Coloured Representative Council which they 25, yes, perhaps 50 years. In a few decades’ are now getting, for at least 20 to 25 years. time there will be further consultations. That The Coloureds must now accept greater re­ is my honest opinion. We have to deal with sponsibility and they must see to it that their human relations here. Man is not static; there family, social and health services in particular is development. Continual adjustment will have are developed. I say that in that regard there to be made, also in this field. In a few decades’ is enough work to be done to occupy the time -the succeeding generation will have to Coloureds and the Whites for at least 20 years. have discussions once more. I feel that the It is not at all necessary for us to quarrel here present political generation, those of us sitting about the disappearance of these few represen­ -here, have a lifelong occupation ahead of us, tatives. It is not necessary. On the contrary. and have discovered a solution. We have work To my mind it is not even relevant. I do not to do; we have a programme for the Coloured think it is relevant for the Coloureds either. population. In a few decades’ time there will There are too many great things involved for be further consultations. Most probably another them. To my way of thinking, of seeing, of commission will be appointed. The relations feeling, the coloured population will not allow between people will be discussed again. But I themselves to be misled again as they were in believe that, just as we have gradually found 1951 and 1952 by the United Party, the Torch a peaceful solution to our problems, our chil­ Commando, and the United Front, when they dren—and we have confidence in them—will also joined the ranks and marched along. also find solutions. But every solution arrived There are going to be no upheavals in the at in the future, will be within -the framework country; there is going to be no quarreling on of the principle of separate development in the part of the Coloureds. I think that the South Africa. various Ministers of Coloured Affairs and the Department have done wonderful work here Mr. J. M. CONNAN: Mr. Speaker, judging in South Africa by bringing about so much from what the hon. member for Malmesbury goodwill on the part of such a large popula­ said just now when he referred to “verkramp- tion group in these few years of the Depart­ tes”, I would have thought he considered him­ ment’s existence. self a “verligte”. But judging from the policy I repeat, we on this side have nothing on our he has just expounded in connection with the consciences in connection with what we are Coloured people, I must classify him as a “ver­ doing here—nothing at all. As Dr. I. D. du krampte”. The hon. member told us that we Plessis also says, _we are the guardians of the were the guardians of the Coloured people Coloured population, and we are of the opinion and, if I understood him correctly, he said that that what is being done here is in the best in­ we would be the guardians of the Coloured terest of the Coloured population. It is in their people for ever and ever. interest that this representation be terminated. As far as the political aspect is concerned, I An HON. MEMBER: He never said that. want to say that the Coloureds have, until now. been the political bottle-baby of the Mr. J. M. CONNAN: I say that if I under­ Whites. This must come to an end now. We stood him correctly we are to be the guardians cannot expect that Coloured leaders will come of the Coloured people for ever and ever [In­ forward as the true leaders of the Coloured terjections.] population, as long as we have white represen­ tatives here playing off the Coloured leaders against one another. These hon. representatives, The DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! also the hon. member for Karoo, so often say things here which never emanated from the Mr. J. M. CONNAN: Before I go any fur­ Coloured population. The hon. member for ther, I should like to express my appreciation Karoo pins his narrow-visioned (verkrampte) to the chairman of the commission for his im­ United Party political view onto the Coloured partiality, courteousness and for all the oppor­ population. tunities he gave us as members of that com­ This side of the House maintains that this mission to put our questions. But I think that I system of representation has served its purpose can safely say that the Government must be over a period of two decades, and now the very sorry that they ever appointed this com­ enemies of separate development—amongst mission. I say so because the weight of the others the hon. member for Houghton and her evidence of this commission certainly does not party—have discovered the loopholes in the sys­ substantiate the recommendations with which tem. They want to create a platform for -them­ they have come forward. [Interjections.] selves in this Parliament by riding on the backs of the Coloureds, and that is why it is so The DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! 1325 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1326

Mr. J. M. CONNAN: I think that they are some assistance from white parties. He goes sorry that they ever appointed this commission. on to say that white leadership is required. Mr. I feel quite certain that they had made up their Manuel—he is also one of the nine—makes no minds beforehand. The Nationalist Party—I strong issue of the aspect concerning political will not say the members of the commission— interference. He has no strong views on it at had made up its mind beforehand namely that all. He did not seem to understand the rele­ they were going to remove or abolish Coloured vant part of the memorandum submitted by representation. The findings of this commission him. I should not like to make any further therefore do not make their task any easier. comment in regard to Sabra. We all know This commission certainly collected a lot of what their views are. They do not want information in the form of memoranda and Coloured people in Parliament and, conse­ from witnesses who gave oral evidence. I am quently, they want no interference at all. I sorry that more information was not obtained think somebody already mentioned that the from the Indian community in regard to their hon. member for Sunnyside also wants no views on the matter. For some reason or other political interference, but he visualizes vir- -they did not come forward. For some reason tally no future for the Coloureds under a or other I think they were afraid to come for­ Coloured Representative Council. The hon. ward to express their views. member for Outeniqua also believes strongly that there should be no political interference Two aspects were investigated. Firstly, there whatsoever. Professor Olivier from Natal is was the question of improper political inter­ another person who believes in more or less ference and, secondly, political representation complete separation, but confined himself of the Coloureds and Indian peoples. Many of mainly to the Indian community and ex­ the persons who submitted memoranda or gave pressed the hope to see a separate Indian state. oral evidence did not express any views on the question of improper interference, while others I state unequivocally again that no case was did not express views on the aspect of political made out in favour of the introduction of a bill representation. After a careful examination of to prevent political interference, as it is called. No case was made out. What is more, the the various memoranda and the evidence there commission itself in its majority report could is no doubt that -the Bill before the commis­ not produce a Bill as they were not in a posi­ sion was not acceptable. I examined the memo­ tion to do so. On the other side, again in so randa and evidence very carefully and I find far as the question of political interference that 23 people were against the introduction of was concerned, we had Rev. Steenkamp, the a Bill of this nature; seven expressed no views, moderator of the Nederduits Gereformeerde while nine expressed the view that white par­ Sendingkerk. He stated that the appointment ties should not interfere with Coloured politics. of the 20 nominees was in itself interference Those that expressed views on the question of in the politics of another party. That point was improper political interference, included, firstly, also made by the Leader of the Opposition. Judge Van Wyk de Vries. He thought it would Mr. Tom Schwartz, chairman of the Federal be a good thing if the one group did not inter­ Party and a person who may be looked upon fere into -the politics of the other. But he tore as a supporter of Government policy, to some the Bill referred to the commission to pieces, extent did not like a law which would stop and said that it was quite impracticable and parties assisting other parties. He also stated should not be proceeded with. Then we had that if the Coloured people were represented the District Six Association group. Mention by Coloureds in Parliament no Bill would be has already been made of them. I think they necessary; in other words, that there will be no are pretty inexperienced politically. They knew necessity for a Bill of this description. Accord­ very little about the political set-up. ing to page 156 of the commission’s report, During their evidence I think the chairman Mr. Rayners. of the same party, was not cer­ on at least three occasions had to tell them tain as to how this could be stopped. Mr. what the Coloured Representative Council was Schwartz actually went so far as to say that he going to be and what its functions were. They did not want any Bill, “want hy wil nie hê knew nothing whatsoever about it. They ex­ struikelblokke moet in ons weg gelê word pressed the opinion that political parties nie”. Rev. Botha, who is a missionary of some should not interfere in the politics of others. standing among the Coloured community, But at the same time they also expressed the stated that he could not see how the Bill could view that Coloured parties could not proceed ever be implemented and how political inter­ unless they had guidance and assistance from ference could ever be stopped. He further the white people. They said that because they stated that if a Bill of that sort was necessary lack the experience they required that assist­ and had to be implemented you would have ance. I think they actually went further and to have a police state in this country. said that they were not financially in a posi­ tion to run their parties and their elections. An HON. MEMBER: Who said that? Mr. Dollie was already referred to. He is one of those who believe that it is undesirable that Mr. J. M. CONNAN: Rev. Botha. On page one party should interfere in the politics of 160 of the commission’s report he said this— another. He also makes the observation on page 329 that the fighting of elections costs Maar nogtans het ek die gevoel dat die money and that they do not have the means masjinerie wat nodig sal wees om wetge- to fight elections. In other words, he expects wing van hierdie aard te implementeer, sal 1327 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1328

neerkom op optrede wat jy in ’n polisiestaat tunity of taking their appointed seats on the sal vind, as ek dit dan so mag stel. Grand Parade. Leaving the Groote Kerk the There were, of course, other bodies, such as presidential procession, escorted by a mounted the Christian Institute, the Institute for Race police guard, an armoured car squadron, and Relations and several churches, referred to by a flight of helicopters overhead, will move down the hon. the Deputy Minister as being against Adderley Street to the fountain in the Heeren- these things simply because they were against gracht, back along Adderley Street as far as apartheid. Now, I think they are people who the Darling Street intersection, and then to the can view this matter objectively and I do not Grand Parade. The entire route will be lined believe for one moment that they expressed with troops. views against the Bill simply because they At the Grand Parade the procession will fol­ were not in favour of the Government’s apart­ low a route which will be marked down the heid policy. length of the Parade and be lined with specta­ tors on both sides. That will afford everybody, Debate adjourned. White and non-White, the opportunity of seeing the presidential procession from close by. The House adjourned at 6.20 p.m. The dignitaries will be provided with seats on a dais to be erected on the Castle side of the Grand Parade. Seats will be reserved for Mem­ bers of the House of Assembly, Senators, THURSDAY, 29TH FEBRUARY, 1968 Provincial Councillors, heads of Departments and all persons whose names appear on the Table of Precedence. The State President and his retinue are expected to arrive in front of Prayers—2.20 p.m. the dais on the Grand Parade at approxi­ mately 11.15 a.m., where they will be met and FIRST REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE escorted to their seats on the dais by the hon. ON RAILWAYS AND HARBOURS the Prime Minister and Mrs. Vorster. Report presented. The moment the State President appears on the dais, he wiil be saluted by a fly-past of INAUGURATION OF STATE PRESIDENT­ approximately 80 aircraft. Immediately after ELECT that the hon. the Prime Minister will request the State President to deliver his message to ‘The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: the nation. The Defence Force, the Navy, the Mr. Speaker, with your leave I should like to Air Force and the Police and their bands will make the following statement— take a spectacular part in the proceedings. As you are aware, Sir, the inauguration of Ample provision will be made for both Whites the State President-elect will take place in the and non-Whites on the Grand Parade. Groote Kerk, Cape Town, on 10th April, 1968, Approximately 6,500 scholars and members at 10 a.m. I am now in a position to announce of youth organizations of all population groups further details in regard to the arrangements are expected to be present and special seats for the inauguration. will be available for the youth. Special provi­ Guests attending the inauguration service by sion is being made for the participation of invitation, will start taking their appointed seats non-Whites, and the band of the Coloured in the Groote Kerk at 8.45 a.m. From that Corps will start playing on the Grand Parade time until approximately five minutes before at 8 a.m. the inauguration service will commence, there The proceedings in the church and on the will be organ music alternated with the Stellen­ Grand Parade as well as the presidential pro­ bosch University Choir and the Free State cession from the church to the Grand Parade Youth Choir. will be covered fully by the South African Escorted by a mounted police guard the Broadcasting Corporation. The Government State President-elect will leave from the en­ gave serious consideration to declaring this day trance to his official residence in the Avenue for to be a Public holiday. Unfortunately such a the Groote Kerk. As soon as the procession step would cause the country too much disrup­ enters Adderley Street, it will be joined by an tion in the economic and industrial spheres, armoured car squadron from Wale Street, The particularly i* view of the fact that the inaugu­ arrival of the State President-elect at the Groote ration will take place shortly after Van Rie- Kerk will be heralded by a fanfare. The State beeck Day and just before the Easter week­ President-elect and his retinue will be met at end. Consequently it has been decided not to the church door and escorted to their seats by declare the day of the inauguration a public Dr. J. S. Gericke. Dr. P. S. Z. Coetzee and holiday. Professor W. D. Maxwell, the three ministers There are already indications that people will of religion who will, at his request, officiate at be attending the proceedings in large numbers. the inauguration service. In terms of the pro­ If on the day in question the working public visions of the Constitution the Chief Justice, have to go to their places of work in Cape Dr. the Hon. L. C. Steyn, will conduct the in­ Town as usual, tremendous traffic problems auguration ceremony. After the inauguration may be caused bv the additional flow of people ceremony the guests will be afforded the oppor­ coming to town to see the inauguration. The 1329 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1330

Government has decided that all Government REPORT OF COMMISSION OF INQUIRY offices in Cape Town and its immediate en­ INTO IMPROPER POLITICAL INTERFER­ virons will be closed in the morning. ENCE AND POLITICAL REPRESENTA­ An earnest appeal is now being made to TION OF THE VARIOUS POPULATION businessmen and all other undertakings in the GROUPS Cape Peninsula to close their businesses, if at all possible, until 12.30 p.m. on that day. Such (Debate resumed) a gesture on the part of the private sector would be highly appreciated and would greatly Mr. J. M. CONNAN: Mr. Speaker, when facilitate the arrangements for the proceedings. we adjourned yesterday, I stated that a large It would also afford the workers in the Penin­ number of people representing different orga­ sula the opportunity of seeing the presidential nizations were against the Bill on Improper procession and hearing the message of the Political Interference. Bodies like the Christian second State President of the Republic. Institute, the Institute of Race Relations, A further appeal is being made to all per­ Tucsa and several churches are all convinced sons who occupy or own premises situate along that if this Bill, or something similar, becomes the route to be followed, to decorate their law, it will hamper their organizations and buildings and so to do their share in adding they are therefore totally opposed to the Bill. lustre to the inauguration ceremony and mak­ It was just over two years ago that Die Bur­ ing the day a memorable one. ger advocated in a leading article that the Upon the conclusion of the proceedings on Nationalist Party should now propagate their the Grand Parade, the State President, pre­ policy among the Coloured people. The ceded by the mounted policeguard and fol­ article, dated 21st May, 1965, and translated by lowed by the armoured car squadron, will re­ the Cape Times, read as follows— turn to the original point of departure along Now is the time to devise a plan of cam­ Darling Street, Adderley Street, and Govern­ paign to spread the Nationalist policy for ment Avenue. racial peace and co-operation amongst the Immediately after his arrival at his official people without whose support it will sink in residence, Westbrooke, at approximately 12.30 a morass of hostility. The enemies of sepa­ p.m., the State President will meet the mem­ rate development are working hard and bers of the Cabinet. At 4 p.m. the State Presi­ systematically to propagate their message, dent will receive diplomatic representatives at but in the provincial council elections there his official residence, Westbrooke. At 8 p.m. a was not even a friend of the policy in the banquet in honour of the State President will field. What if it had been defeated, which would possibly have happened in the pre­ be given by the Provincial Administration of vailing atmosphere? What right, if difficult the Cape in the Parow Town Hall. idea, has ever gained ground at the outset? On the following day, 11th April, at times One thing we know: Separate development still to be fixed, the State President will meet will not gain ground amongst the Coloureds the leaders of the various non-Whites popula­ and Indians without a bitterly hard struggle tion groups in the Lady Anne Barnard Hall in on all levels, but above all, in the field the Castle. amongst the people concerned. I should like to convey the Government’s Die Burger, the political organ of the Nationa­ gratitude to the Cape Town City Council list Party, did not then think, and that was for the cordial co-operation we have already after the provincial council elections, that it been receiving from them. was wrong to take part in elections for Further details in regard to the arrangements Coloured people, but strongly advocated it. In will from time to time be announced through fact, on many occasions Nationalists stood as the medium of the Press and the radio by the independents in elections for Coloured repre­ organizing committee, under the chairmanship sentatives. We all know the results. What the results would have been if they stood as of Mr. J. Driessen, Secretary for Public Works. Nationalists instead of under the cloak of in­ Inquiries may be addressed to the organizer, dependents, we can well imagine. The fact Mr. M. du Preez, telephone 45-4559 or room that the commission reported that the Bill in 1409, Plein Park Building. its present form should not be proceeded with, and the fact that it could not produce an alter­ FIRST READING OF BILLS native Bill, is surely proof that they saw the impossibility of implementing any measure to stop the so-called improper interference of The following Bills were read a First Time: one political party in the affairs of another. I now wish to say something on political Professional Engineers’ Bill. representation. The hon. the Prime Minister made the extraordinary statement yesterday Community Development Amendment Bill. that now for the first time the Coloured people are getting political rights, this by way of the Promotion of the Economic Development Coloured Representative Council. They got of Bantu Homelands Bill. these rights in terms of the 1964 Act but the 1331 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1332

Government delayed its implementation up to verteenwoordig moet word. Ek dink hier aan now. At most they will be equal to provincial sake soos verdediging, justisie en finansies. council voting rights. They will never have more power than a provincial council has. The Professor S. P. Olivier from Natal holds the real meaning of full political rights is to enable views held by Sabra, but even he states that them to have representation in this House, a the time will come when the white man will say in the central Parliament. The rights were have to give some sort of political rights to diminished in the 1950’s when the Coloureds the Coloureds and Indians. We have dealt with were removed from the common roll and now the views of Dr. I. D. du Plessis at length. Mr. they are to be abolished altogether. In the Dollie was referred to by the hon. member for Cape and Natal they still vote for representa­ iwaimesbury as an outstanding personality in tives in this House. The point has been made the Coloured community and as one who does that the number of registered voters is small. not want representation in the central Parlia­ The Prime Minister stated that approximately ment. But what does he want? He wants a 700,000 Coloureds in the Cape could be regis­ Coloured Parliament with equal rights to those tered. I do not think that this figure is correct. of the present-day sovereign Parliament. On That figure may reflect the total number of page 330 we have Mr. Dollie’s reply to a ques­ males over 21 years of age but they do not all tion by Mr. Bloomberg: qualify. However, the fact that those who could qualify are not registered, is immaterial. Eet us now leave the territorial aspect. We must remember too that this Government Can you imagine the Coloured people at made it very difficult for a Coloured man to any time having a parliament with rights register at all. The point is that the ability to equal to the present-day sovereign Parlia­ elect members to the central Parliament is ot ment?—I think it will come. the umost importance. They are not getting something better in exchange. They are get­ As regards Sabra, I have no comment to ting a provincial council status which, as I make; I think they are idealists. have already pointed out, they virtually got in So, Mr. Speaker, the evidence against re­ terms of the 1964 Act. When that Act was presentation is of very little value. On the passed, it was stated definitely by the late other hand, the evidence in favour of repre­ Prime Minister that their representation in this sentation for Coloureds in the central Par­ House would not be abolished. liament is overwhelming. The Labour Party In other words, the late Prime Minister, Dr. states that Coloured people are being driven Verwoerd, definitely intended the Coloureds to further and further from the Whites. The have the Coloured Representative Council as Group Areas Act has brought bitterness, par­ provided for in the 1964 Act, as well as repre- ticularly because of its one-sided application. senation in this House. I have no doubt what­ 1 am sure that if this Government proceeds ever that it was not Dr. Verwoerd’s intention with its plan to remove the Coloured repre­ that such representation should be abolished, sentatives from this House, the bitterness will certainly not at this stage. This Act is breaking be very much increased. faith with the Coloured people. The statement The hon. member for Outeniqua gave evi­ that they are getting something better in re­ dence and I think he knows the Coloured turn, will not wash with them. They want and people as well as anybody else. He knows his must have both. constituents and he knows their views. He says I now wish to refer to the report. On the with absolute conviction that there will be question of the political representation of shock, consternation and frustration, and the Coloureds and Indians, the hon. the Leader harm done to the confidence of the Coloured of the Opposition has already informed the people will be irreparable, even if the House that a great volume of evidence in Coloured Council is built up. favour of representation in the central Parlia­ The Federal Party, represented by Messrs. ment was received. Approximately 27 people T. Schwartz from the Cape Province, J. Poley were in favour of such representation as from the Transvaal, P. Sanders from the against nine who were against it. The respon­ Orange Free State, and others representing the sible Coloured and Indian parties and other greater part of the Republic, were firm in their bodies want this representation. Of the nine opinion that the Coloured people should be who did not think that this representation represented in Parliament. I do not think it is served a useful purpose, only one Coloured necessary to auote what thev said in particu­ organization, the District Six Association, was lar. A good bit of that has already been done. such a body. But even this body qualified its But the fact nobody can dispute, is that they statement by saying that if these representa­ want representation in the central Parliament. tives were to report back regularly, they would The witnesses who represented the Conser­ be happy to retain them. The Rev. Engelbrecht vative Party were equally convinced that re­ was one of those who stated that they did not presentation in this Parliament was necessary. attach much value to the representation in this Mr. Fortuin also stated, like Mr. T. Schwartz, House, but on page 273 he states: and I quote— Wei, daar is sekere aangeleenthede met If I have to fight an election and tell my be trekking tot die Kleurlinge wat die blanke voters that there will be no representation Parlement nog sal moet behartig en daarom of Ce Coloured people in this Parliament sal die Kleurling nog daar deur Blankes I will be rejected. 1333 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1334

He goes on to state that he sees on the basis of Coloureds. Since then the hon. member and a common roll the building up of a very im­ his party have, as regards the political rights portant Coloured body, namely the Coloured of the Coloureds, been following a winding Representative Council. Despite this important political course which nobody can understand. Council, he still insists on representation. He But now, after 15 years, they accept the prin­ says that he will fight the next election as a ciple of separate development. Yet to-day the Nationalist. hon. member is once again levelling the accu­ Then there are both Ds. D. P. Botha and sations he levelled as far back as 15 years ago. J. A. J. Steenkamp, who have spent many The hon. member for Gardens was a mem­ years of their lives—one something like 44 ber of the commission whose report is under years—amongst the Coloured people, and who discussion at the moment, and he was chair­ I am sure know them very well. They are not man of the commission that was appointed men who are against the Government’s apart­ by his leader. On 9th October last year the heid policy. They both state that the Coloureds hon. member wrote a letter to the chairman must retain their representation in Parliament. of the former commission in which he solemn­ Ds. D. P. Botha says that if it is abolished, it ly stated that he identified himself whole­ would be a terrific shock. There is overwhelm­ heartedly with the findings of the minority re­ ing evidence from the Coloureds and the port and that, if he had not been precluded Whites, and from the Whites who know the from being present by reason of illness, he Coloureds very well, that representation in this would also have signed that minority report. Parliament must be maintained. The abolition Please note. The hon. member made this state­ will do our relations irreparable harm. Aboli­ ment on 9th October, i.e. on the eve of the tion will mean breaking faith with the United Party congress. And the hon. member Coloured people. I must again remind the knew that at that congress a committee of in­ House of the assurance that was given by the quiry, of which he was the chairman, would former Prime Minister in 1962, and we shall submit a report in which it would be recom­ quote it again later on, and again by the mended that the Coloureds should be kept on Minister of Coloured Affairs, namely— a separate voters’ roll. Mr. Speaker, where would one find another hon. member who is “What I said, was that when we have that as great a political opportunist as is the hon. Parliament (referring to the Coloured Par­ member for Gardens? This would even make liament) in my view the white representa­ a statue blush. King Solomon would have tives will still be here.” been rendered speechless if he could have ob­ served to-day the manoeuvring of the United It was not their intention that the Coloured Party and of the hon. member for Gardens. Parliament should replace the Whites. The The point at issue here, is the Prime Minis­ then Minister of Coloured Affairs gave a simi­ ter’s announcement that he has accepted the lar assurance and left no doubt in the minds recommendations of the majority report—inter of hon. members, the public and the coloured alia, that the political representation of the people that representation in this House will Coloureds in this House should be abolished. not be abolished. A further point at issue here, is the Govern­ I am reminded of the words of the late ment’s decision to expand the Coloured Per­ General Hertzog, when referring to the Na­ sons Representative Council by investing it tionalist Party after their change of policy and with greater powers and status. Another point their decision to put the Coloureds on a sepa­ at issue here, is that the Prime Minister has rate roll, when he said: “Wat ’n skande! Wat stated frankly that a suitable link between the ’n gruwelike verbreking van jou erewoord!” Coloured Council and this Parliament would be created as soon as the new Coloured Coun­ •Mr. S. F. KOTZÉ: The wise King Solo­ cil has been established and consulted. mon said that there were a few things that The first question that may be asked now, were incomprehensible and inexplicable to is why do we not retain the present set-up? him. One of those was the way a snake passed From 1956—when the Coloureds were placed over a stone. I think that if King Solomon on a separate voters’ roll—to 1966. was for could have looked to-day at the course the the Coloureds a period of political calm. Then United Party has taken in the field of Coloured the United Party set the example again, politics, he would have shaken his head and through the hon. member for Karoo, by once remained silent. The hon. member for Gar­ again poking their noses into the political af­ dens referred in his speech to the removal of fairs of the Coloureds. The example set by the Coloureds from the Common Voters’ Roll he hon. member for Karoo was followed by by the National Party early in the fifties, and the Progressive Party. But in those ten years said that the National Party had diminished of calm a great deal was achieved for the the political rights of the Coloureds in that Coloureds under the present set-up. Mention way. Is the hon. member for Gardens also has already been made of the extensive work prepared to say that with its somersault policy that has been done by the Department of at its recent congress held at Bloemfontein the Coloured Affairs, particularly under the socio­ United Party is also diminishing the rights of economic upliftment plan for the Coloureds. the Coloureds? The hon. member says that by A great deal of appreciation has been ex­ taking that step the National Party was pressed for this work that has been done by diminishing the political rights of the the Department, a department that was dis­ 1335 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1336

paraged by the United Party at the time of its other the franchise would have had to be ex­ inception. They did not want to have anything tended to Coloured women, and sooner or to do with it and subsequently they slandered later—I say that it would have had to happen it and stirred up suspicion against it amongst sooner—political rights would have had to be the Coloureds—in fact, they did everything granted to the Coloureds in the northern pro­ possible to prevent the Department from being vinces. This is an obvious fact, and the United able to do its work properly. All the positive Party admits it in their policy. In their pro­ steps that were taken by this Government, posed policy they grant political rights to the were fought by the United Party—amongst Coloureds in the northern provinces, and they other things the take-over of Coloured Edu­ are most certainly making allowances for it. cation. There is evidence that in this period a This is the principal reason why the United national pride has come into being amongst Party is now abandoning the Common Voters’ the Coloureds and that a great deal has been Roll and introducing separate representation. done to arouse amongst them a sense of na­ Just imagine what would happen if one had a tionhood. But at the same time it is being ad­ Common Voters’ Roll in the Transvaal and in mitted generally that all these positive and the Orange Free State and the Transvaal and constructive things could only have been Free State United Party supporters would then undertaken in the climate that was created have to go to the polls along with the when the Coloureds were taken out of the Coloureds. That would be the end of the political struggle of the Whites. The fact that United Party. during the period 1953 to 1956 the National Party did not take any notice of the fuss that In the first place we must take into account was made by the Opposition and its hangers- the fact that the logical outcome of the Col­ on outside, but continued to do what it con­ oureds being represented in this Parliament by sidered to be in the interests of the Coloureds, Whites, would be that at some stage or other created the right climate. The step taken by in the future we would have to allow the the Government to place the Coloureds on a Coloureds to be represented here by their own separate voters’ roll, a step history has already people. This is a logical fact; we cannot escape proved to be the right one, created this climate it. We as Nationalists are saying to the United which has made these positive steps possible. Party that the eight white representatives they Virtually everybody who appeared before the want to bring in here for representing the commission, admitted that the period 1956 to Bantu, will not always remain white, nor will 1966 had been the most fruitful period in the they always remain eight in number. One history of the Coloureds, because during this simply cannot get away from that. In spite of period more was done for them than was all the assurances the United Party wants to done in any other period of their existence. put in writing, we say that we do not believe that the number will remain eight and that Another point the commission had to take they will always be white. As Nationalists and into account, was that if it were decided to Dawie wrote in Die Burger in 1960: if one re­ retain the political representation of the tained the white representatives of the Col­ Coloureds, as it exists in this Parliament at pre­ oureds here and if one granted the Coloureds sent, we would not be able to prevent people a point of growth for political rights in this from insisting that the number of representa­ white parliament, then the outcome would be tives should be increased. In fact, everybody that the number of representatives would not admitted that if it were accepted that the be four only and that they would be repre­ Coloureds should have a political point of sented here by their own people. The com­ growth here, the number of representatives mission had to face those facts, and in addi­ would in fact have had to be increased gradu­ tion to that the evidence showed very clearly ally. The possible number of Coloured voters that it would be attempting the impossible to in the Cape to-day is between 160,000 and combat political interference by the Whites 200,000. As a result of the economic develop­ in Coloured politics with any degree of success ment in the country, development which stands if the candidates of the Coloured people con­ the Coloureds in good stead, and as a result of tinued to be white persons. On the other hand the upliftment programme for the Coloureds we were given the alternative solution that one on the part of the State and with the educa­ could possibly establish an electoral college to tion facilities that are being placed at their prevent the interference by the Progressive disposal, this voters’ potential is growing every Party and the United Party which is taking day. It was pointed out in evidence that the place at the moment. The proposal was that Separate Representation of Voters Act and the one had to prevent this interference by making speeches of Nationalist leaders of that time the Coloured Persons Representative Council made allowances for the fact that the number an electoral college for nominating their re­ of Coloured representatives here would have presentatives in this Parliament. That alterna­ to be increased in the course of time. tive proposal fell flat for the simple reason Another fact of which we had to take note that it would rather increase political inter­ was, that it became very apparent from the ference than reduce it. The political parties evidence that if the political representation of will do everything in their power to have those the Coloureds in this Parliament were to be members elected whom they consider to be continued, we would not have found any the right persons, to nominate the right per­ moral justification for limiting it to the small, sons to this Parliament, and subsequent to that select group we have to-day. At some stage or the Coloured representatives will be subject to 1337 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1338

improper pressure, which we simply cannot I also want to refer to the Labour Party, one allow. of the few parties that was in favour of the Sir, what was the commission to do then? I retention of Coloured representatives here in should like to lay some emphasis on the evi­ this House. I want to refer to what Dr. Van dence that was given before the Commission der Ross said on page 121 of the report. Aris­ by non-Whites and by non-White political ing from a question that had been put to him, parties. I did not, as the hon. member for he said— Gardens did, sit down and count the number of witnesses. Some of them are not worth Aan die ander kant is dit ook waar dat counting. Some of them are standing outside— maar baie min notisie van ons geneem is in at the upper end of Adderley Street—with a die algemene gang van die praktiese politiek. poster, and the Coloureds are laughing at them. They were sitting around like political vultures I also want to refer to what the Rev. J. A. J. —people such as the Black Sash—waiting to Steenkamp, the moderator of the D.R. Mission see whether there was anything to scavenge. Church, said on page 127. He said— I say that the Coloureds are laughing at them. It is not worth the trouble to count them. I Voor 1956 het ons die posisie gehad waar want to read out here the evidence of Col­ die Kleurlinge misbruik is, die kleurlingstem oureds themselves; I want them to speak. Their misbruik is deur blanke politieke partye. evidence is valuable in this sense that if it is at Hulle self getuig dat hulle onder die ou Se- all possible to-day to talk about a represen­ deling niks meer gekry het as wat hulle van- tative Coloured opinion, then it is to be found, dag kry nie. Nadat die verkiesing plaasge- to the extent it exists at present, within the vind het, dan staan alles stil tot die volgende commission. There were representatives of all verkiesing en dan vry ons maar weer na die three political parties that appeared before the Kleurling se stem. commission. There were representatives of all three of these political parties whom it was If this evidence is not sufficient, then I should worth listening to. What were their views on like to read from a statement issued by the the various possibilities that exist? Let us take Federal Peoples’ Party shortly after its incep­ first the old set-up before 1956, the period of tion. It deals with their programme of prin­ the common voters’ roll. I can state quite ciples. They say (translation)— frankly that with very few exceptions the Col­ oureds did not have a good word for that In the first place, the period before 1910 period. It was generally said by the Coloureds forms the history of the origin of the Col­ that that was the most frustrating, the most oured people, its composition, its grouping ineffective and the most useless period in the and its self-development, without any plans history of the existence of the Coloureds. The for the future. This is the backgroud period. vote of a Coloured person was all that mattered at that time. His vote was used as a football This is merely the introduction; what I want for their own purposes by white political to read out, is the following— opportunists, and the stirring up of suspicion, the incitement and the corruption that went The second period, 1910 to 1948, is the along with it, landed these poor people in a period in which a section of the Coloureds bottomless morass, and in all other spheres of the country were granted the right to vote they were sorely neglected as far as their de­ on a common voters’ roll. Although this is velopment was concerned. Moreover, in that being called a “right”, this was probably one period the race relations between Whites and of the greatest injustices that was done to us, non-Whites were upset in a ruthless way be­ because it only helped us from the frying cause the Coloureds were forced into a posi­ pan into the fire. tion of having to act as a political arbiter between white man and white man. I just want Then they go on to say— to refer to the evidence in this regard. In the first place, I shall refer to the memorandum of Our votes ensured that the Whites repre­ the Federal Party on page 59. I want to con­ sented us in Parliament, but those Whites cede, as the hon. member for Malmesbury did, always came under the caucus of the white that under cross-examination people sometimes parties that were governing and could not say things they have not thought out well, but look after our interests, but had to do what the following is a quotation from this memo­ the party leadership asked of them. randum— Ons sien in die beleid van afsonderlike Then it says— ontwikkeling ’n teenstelling met die ou kolo- niale beleid waar ’n volk of ’n volksgroep In this period, too, a sharp division set in ekonomies so verkneg word dat daar geen amongst the Coloureds, because those who geleentheid bestaan of kan ontwikkel vir could vote were bribed into recording their daardie volksgroep om self verder te ont­ votes in accordance with the demands set wikkel nie. Ons, as hul leiers, begin insien by the briber. A false hope and a future dat die integrasiebeleid van die verlede nog was held out to us which the then Govern­ altyd in die hande van opportuniste gespeel ment under General Smuts could never have het. put into practice. 1339 2 9 t h 1968 FEBRUARY, 1340

But there is more to come. I am reading on— in their platform and to accept it as part of At one stage the Coloured population their policy, then a tremendous political cam­ group felt that it was the refuse dump of paign would be waged against them on this the other races. It had no identity, and in issue, and that was why they did not advocate terms of Government policy to-day the Col­ its abolition openly. But they tell the com­ oureds have now obtained an identity and a mission, “You may do so at any time; you God-given birthright. may abolish them if you want to. but, please, do not say that we asked you to do so”. That I_ should like the Opposition to give considera­ was the attitude adopted by two of the three tion to that. What was the attitude adopted by political parties. You can find it in what Mr. the various Coloured political parties in re­ Fortum said on page 139, and in what Mr spect of the present set-up we now have here, Petersen said on page 144. You will find it and in respect of which it is now being pleaded m the evidence given by the Federal Party that we should retain it here? It can be seen and also in the memorandum submitted by trom the evidence that everybody admits that the Federal Party, on page 60— as a transition period this system has served its purpose. It created that calm, that climate Na die verkiesing van die lede van die m which it was possible for the Coloured Kleurlmgparlement sal daardie liggaam population to prosper for ten years, but in that moet _ besluit of hulle sal wil vra vir die same period it was also very clear that the wysiging van die verteenwoordiging in die Coloureds had lost their interest in this politi- blanke Parlement. Ons herhaal net dat die cal representation, obviously because this poli­ huidige verteenwoordiging nie vir ons tot tical representation had very little significance nut is nie en aan geen verwagtings voldoen tor them, and they guided their interests into me. other directions. Evidence of this is the fact that between May, 1953, and August, 1963— They say that as far as they are concerned, in ten years’ time—the number of registered once the Coloured Persons Representative decreased from 47,849 to 9,839—by Council has been elected, that Council will 38,000 m ten years’ time. But further proof to decide what is to become of these people here, tms effect is the evidence given by the Rev but in the meantime they can only emphasize Steenkamp on page 125. He said— the fact that these people do not have anv significance for them. This is also the tenor of the evidence given by the other political Dit is my ondervinding dat die Kleurlinge party, the Conservative Party. They say: Let Ultsi;ndf lng van ’n paar groepies, na there be a transition period for approximately ty56 in n bale groot mate politiek-passief five or ten years; they are of no significance geword het en dat sy belangstelling tot groot to us, but then we may decide later to abolish hoogte le op maatskaplike, ekonomiese, them. onderwys- en kulturele terreine. Now I should like to say this. What did the commission therefore have as an alterna­ In the third place the general evidence before tive? The commission had only one alterna­ us was that these white representatives who tive before it, namely that white representa­ had been sitting here since 1956, were of very tives in this House be removed and that a little or no significance to the Coloureds With­ political instrument be placed in the hands out giving any offence to these representatives of the Coloured population, an instrument by ír,^anL t0 ^ y, the evidence before us signified that the Coloureds merely accepted them means of which they^ may realize themselves here as a necessary evil. It was openly ad­ m the field of politics, something which is mitted that these people did not mean any­ worth while to them, a council through which thing to them. It is not necessary for me to go this Government will also be able to give into this aspect; it has already been done by them much more -than it is normally able to other hon. members and I think that it is being give them when they have representation in accepted generally. ë this House. That is why the commission re­ commended that the representatives here be What was the attitude adopted by the abolished and that another link between Par­ Coloureds in respect of the abolition of this liament and the new council be sought. By representation? Now I want to tell the United removing the white representatives of the Party, which says here that the overwhelming Coloureds from this Parliament, we shall also concensus of opinion was that these people have further developed the National Party’s should remain here. The people who matter policy in respect of political apartheid. This the most important three groups before us is a logical step, a pattern of development were the three Coloured parties. Two of those which has been in progress in this country three parties stated frankly in their evidence since 1910, namely to remove the non-Whites’ before us that the fact that they advocated representation in this Parliament and to guide the retention of the white representatives in it into other directions. This is the pattern nnhti?c0UTT.’ Was mel;ely a question of practical which has been continued under this Govern­ u U1-theTi argU^ that a kind of sentiment ment and which has gathered momentum attached itself to this representation, and they under this Government. us that if any of them were to use the I have no more time left, but what I want abolition of this representation here as a plank to state here very positively is that it is 1341 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1342 absolutely essential that there should be poli­ ineffective Coloured political party which, on tical separation if we want to carry through his own admission, says it cannot win an separate development for the Coloureds in all election if it agreed to the abolition of the the other spheres. This was also admitted by four Coloured representatives in this House. a witness such as the Rev. D. Botha—who Why did he not speak as the chairman of the was opposed to the abolition of these repre­ Council for Coloured Affairs? There is a sentatives—namely that if one wanted separ­ reason, and a very good reason. ate development in this country to succeed As recently as last year a motion was intro­ amongst the Coloureds, then one would have duced in that council by one of the inexperi­ to set political separation as a pre-requisite. enced members urging the council to resolve That is why it is a logical step to abolish that the four representatives here should be the present representation in this House. done away with. To the eternal credit of the [Time expired.] chairman—and I give him that credit in full Mr. G. S. EDEN: Mr. Speaker, we have measure—he said that as a council it could had a discussion here yesterday and to-day never support the motion. There was a furious during which, in the main, the members of debate. My information goes further and is to the commission who signed the majority re­ the effect that during the tea interval talks port tried to justify their course of action and took place amongst the members. Of course, recommendations, recommendations which are white officials attend these meetings. After­ not borne out by the facts placed before the wards the motion was withdrawn. commission, and which to my certain know­ I can assure hon. members that the Council ledge are not borne out by public opinion, for Coloured Affairs, from the chairman to either White, Coloured, or any other group in the most lowly member, acknowledge and say this country. This afternoon I wish to deal quite frankly that the points of view expressed with what the alternative to the present sys­ in this Parliament by the men who sit here tem will be, namely what the commission re­ on my left, are identical with the views -they commends should take the place of the four express in the council, but the Government representatives in this House. takes no notice of them. This is the sort of Reference has been made here to the thing they say, and this is a Government shortcomings of the Coloured representatives, body with nominees, not elected people. The of whom I happen to be one. but I ask: Who Government dare not face an election among put us in this position? The gentlemen on the Coloured people on their policy. To the the other side. It is that side’s own proposi­ present day there is a vacancy arising from tion; it is their own scheme. When the hon. the resignation of a man from Richmond who gentlemen on that side put their own men resigned years ago. For the same reason they into the field at election time, they were ham­ dare not attempt to fill the seat of the late mered into the ground. Indeed. I think some Mr. Charles Barnett—God rest his soul. So, let of them lost their deposits. The biggest crime us not speak of inerference, because the I committed in our political world is that I Government is interfering in the Coloured beat a man who was really a Nat although political world every day of the week. disguised as an Independent. However, we Mr. W. A. CRUYWAGEN: Remember you found out who he was and, what is far more submitted a memorandum. important, the Coloured people found out who he was. Had that man won the election there Mr. G. S. EDEN: That is right, all in good would have been none of the nonsense we time. Let me deal with my memorandum have been having these last few years, be­ which has been such a thorn in the side of cause that was the big throw of the Nation­ the hon. the Prime Minister. He has had four alist Party. “go’s” at me in this House over that memo­ We have heard a lot of talk here about randum. interference, proper and improper, but I can Let me say here and now: That memoran­ assure hon. members that when I fought that dum was compiled by me. The views expressed election I dealt with Nationalist Party can­ therein were mine, and what about it? Since vassers and organizers. I myself had to enter when have I, a citizen and taxpayer of this Nationalist Party offices to collect ballot country, not the right to attempt to influence papers which Coloured people felt should a commission? Interjections. Never mind have come to me. Of course, that is all in what we have to say. Interjections. I will order; that is not improper. What is more, come to you. A commission is appointed those organizers hung on to the ballot papers which the Coloured people think is really and made it as difficult as possible for me going to get to grips with this problem of to get hold of them. So, hon. members on their political rights. I, as one of their repre­ that side must not talk here from that lofty sentatives, travel a lot among the Coloured perch of the ivory tower of innocence in the people. Hon. members on the opposite side political world, because it is not true. are wrong when they say we see our people Much has been made of the attitude of the seldom. Indeed, I almost live in my consti­ chairman of the Council for Coloured Af­ tuency. Those people support the views in fairs. One significant fact is he did not give my memorandum, and what about it? Now evidence as the chairman of a Government I come to the point which hon. members op­ body but as the leader of a very small and posite are worried about and about which the 1343 29 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1344

Prime Minister has 'been at great pains to heaven? Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that point a finger at the hon. the Leader of the the Coloured people do not believe that that Opposition. The views expressed in my is going to happen. Any knowledgeable per­ memorandum were submitted to the party son who looks at the recommendations of this delegates, the same as all good points of view commission will see that there are only two raised in the United Party. We are not a things offered to these people. I shall, however, bunch of stooges. Our policy is not dictated deal with the five rights mentioned by the hon. by Die Burger, or Dagbreek, or Die Beeld. the Prime Minister in his address at the open­ A congress took place at Bloemfontein at ing of the council last year. He said that they which I had my say, like everybody else. would control finance. In other words, he That congress consisted of nearly 600 men would give them some money to spend. They and women from all walks of life, from all would control local authorities, education, occupations and professions in the country, social welfare and pensions and Coloured and we had a magnificent discussion on this settlements. Let us deal with these in order. subject. I say that that is what the commission The first item concerns finance. If this coun­ should have done. The upshot of that dis­ cil is to be run properly it must have money. cussion was the policy enunciated by my A big show is made in this report of the R46 Leader which, let me tell that side of the million the Government is going to give the House, I support fully. Hon. members op­ council. That money is already being spent, posite, who always talk about what other mostly by Coloured persons in the service of people should do, have been swinging like a the Department of Coloured Affairs. Let us flag in the wind over the Coloured people therefore be sensible. In regard to local for many years. authorities, I recall when the then Minister of The Council for Coloured Affairs has been a Coloured Affairs, the present Minister of De­ failure. The bon. the Prime Minister said that fence, dragooned the Administrators in Pre­ I belittled it. That is of course not true. The toria into introducing legislation to set up people who belittle the Council are the separate local authorities. The attitude was: If Coloured people themselves because they do you do not do it, we will. The Provincial not know what goes on inside it. It is a secret Administration of the Cape appointed a com­ society. An hon. member said that the mission under Senator Jasper Rossouw who Coloured representatives in this House have was then chairman of the Provincial Council. never been to the meetings of this council. He made a detailed study of the possibility of How is one to know when the meetings are creating separate local authorities. He found taking place, if you do not receive a notice. In that it could not be done. He said that it was all the years that I have been in this House, I impossible and that the Government should have never received a notice telling me when forget about it. The first of the five planks the council will meet. We do not receive such which the Prime Minister held up to these notices because the hon. the Prime Minister people in the Council of Coloured Affairs does not want us to know when the meetings therefore went by the board. Let us now take place. He does not want me to know consider the question of education. The what the Coloured people are saying. Coloured people can only ask for one thing. They want the same pay as that received by The PRIME MINISTER: Have you ever white teachers, the same hostels as those of asked when the council will be sitting? white children, concessions for transport and a better arrangement in regard to books, as well Mr. G. S. EDEN: It is a strange thing that as many other things. Let us now assume that I even get a notice from the Secretary of this this council resolves to do those things, so House telling me that Parliament is going to bringing them up to the level of the white sit. The hon. the Prime Minister says that the man. Assume also, that in regard to social Coloured people are going to get this legis­ welfare and pensions they ask for the same lative council. In 1964 I forecasted exactly pensions as white persons and that rural pen­ what has in fact happened in connection with sions must be on the same level as those of the representative council which received a white persons. Let us consider what must be great fanfare of trumpets. Nothing has been the reault. If the council agrees to these re­ done in this regard. There are no voters’ rolls. quests, it will need double the money the The whole matter is as dead as the dodo. I Government has voted so far. Will the forecast that this council is going to be just as Government then merely vote the extra dead because the hon. the Prime Minister money? Let us assume that the Government ripped the insides out of this council yesterday does grant the extra money. Why should we when he said that the Government retains put up the machinery for 60 people of which taxing powers. The council will have no right 20 are going to be interfering in the affairs of to levy any taxes. What body can do anything ■the Coloured Council, when that is exactly unless it has the right to raise money? what the Coloured representatives in Parlia­ That brings me to the point made by the ment have been asking for for years. Educa­ hon. member for Parow. What is the ultimate tion therefore falls by the way as well as end of this council? This is the question we social welfare and pensions, because it depends must answer. Where is the promised land for on money. the Coloured people? Where is the land of I shall not deal with farm settlements now milk and honey and the manna falling from because it is a relatively minor matter. We 1345 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1346 have heard of the great future for the The MINISTER OF SPORT: Oh no, it is Coloured people. At one time it was suggested not. Go and get the letter and do not come to that the Coloured people should have a home­ me with this nonsense. [Interjections.] Read land in Namaqualand. But then somebody the letter. [Interjections.] discovered diamonds in that area. There is a mine in that area and it is being worked by Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Whites. This is being done in the homeland of the Coloureds. When the Coloured people Mr. G. S. EDEN: When we discussed these were talking about getting a fishing harbour in questions affecting the Coloured people we their homeland, somebody found that most of threw words across the floor. I must say’ that our crayfish are caught on that coast. The I was terribly disappointed that this com­ quotas there did not go in quite the right way. mission did not look at the Coloured com­ In both of these cases therefore the Coloured munity as part of the great whole of South people got the short end of the stick. There is Africa. Because, you know, Sir, the Govern- no homeland for them. There is no future or ment talks about the “Kleurlingnasie”. The prosperity of any kind for them other than . Kleurlingnasie” is bewildered, because they administering education and social welfare and just call themselves South Africans. Hon pensions by means of this sum of R46 million. members know the old phrase “Breathes I think that whatever the Government there a man with soul so dead, who never to would do with this council, it must admit that himself, hath said, ‘this is my own my native it is no substitute for representation in Parlia­ u- L ,- X hey say- “nee- basie, dis ’n blanke ment. If we want to teach these people to gebied . There is the whole situation. work democratically, this is the place in which they must be taught. You do not learn The MINISTER OF SPORT: Are you democracy on a small committee which works against it? cap in hand and which has half of its mem­ bers appointed. I want to go further. The Mr. G. S. EDEN: One cannot take a group Government has been misleading this country of people like these, because what is a in regard to the Coloured people for 20 years. Coloured man in terms of Government Its own newspapers say so quite plainly and Anybody who is not white or black. There is clearly. The real reason why the Government a tremendous amount of camouflage and talk does not want to do anything about the going on, but no real facts, no real thinking is Coloured man, is that if he develops to his being brought to bear on the problem facing maximum potential, he will have a parliament us. That is the difference between the Nation­ equal to this in every respect—or will he not? alist Party and the United Party. We apply our That is the question I want the hon. the Prime minds to the problems of the day. I say to the Minister or some other hon. member to hon. the Prime Minister that he can do away answer. We have heard from the Prime Minis­ with me. It is quite easy. He can just by a ter and other hon. members that the sky is the stroke of the pen put an end to it. But he will limit for the development of the Coloured not do me any harm and he will not do him­ people. Now we want to know where the sky self any good. That is the point. I was most is. The Minister of Defence told me in writing, terribly disappointed yesterday to listen to a when I asked him, that no future development man in the position which the hon. the Prime for the Coloured people in the Defence Force Minister holds. We have had distinguished is envisaged. Nothing further is envisaged than men in the Prime Minister’s office. I am one the little detachment at Eerste River. The of those who admire a man in whose . . . [In­ Minister of Mines told me that there is no terjections.] reason why there should be any training facili­ ties for Coloured people in the field of mining. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! If the Coloured Council, which this Govern­ ment wants to thrust upon these unfortunate Mr. G. S. EDEN: I want to give the hon. and unhappy people, decided that the Minis­ the Prime Minister a little advice, quite kindly. ter of Transport did not run his Railways He should cut the antics that he went through properly, would they be allowed to build yesterday out of his repertoire. He is not doing themselves another railway alongside his? It himself any good. He is not doing his party is ridiculous. Are they going to be able to run any good and what is worse, he is not doing a separate department of agriculture? [Inter­ the country any good. jections.] The Minister of Sport cannot even Mr. Speaker, if I were not a true South find 5 cents for any Coloured undertaking African . . . [Interjections.] Yes, I have been or sporting body. I asked him that. Do you here as long as anybody else. I would like to know what he said to me, Mr. Speaker? “Oh, tell these hon. members that my family, my the department did not apply.” people, have made as big a contribution to this country as anybody sitting over there. The MINISTER OF SPORT: What! [Interjections.] We do not think like sheep. But I want to come back to my point. The Prime Minister in defending a weak case, Mr. G. S. EDEN: That is what you told me. chose to spend most of his time trying to be­ The department did not apply to you. That little certain members of the commission and was your reply to me. particularly me. 1347 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1348

An HON. MEMBER: A member of the I come now to the commission’s report. If commission? we were to analyse this report, we would find that it emphasized nine important matters. The Mr. G. S. EDEN: I was not a member of first is what the hon. member for Karoo denies, the commission. I have never in all the years i.e. the enthusiasm with which the Coloured that I have been in public work resorted to population are looking forward to the estab­ personalities or to the sort of tactics which the lishment and expansion of this Coloured Per­ present Prime Minister adopted. I say to him, sons’ Representative Council. There was not a in his own interests, he should stop this and single witness who underestimated the value of he should ask his best friends how he sounds this Council—and the witnesses were the official and how he looks to the outside world when representatives of large groups of Coloureds. he acts like a comic and a buffoon. On the contrary. There was the greatest appre­ ciation for the rehabilitation work which was being done, the achievements, the socio-eco­ •Mr. W. W. B. HAVEMANN: Mr. Speaker, nomic development, and so on. To tell the the hon. member who has just resumed his truth, this report and the evidence contained seat arrogated to himself the role of a patri­ therein is a glowing tribute to the Coloured arch of the nation to prescribe to the Prime Persons’ Council and the Department. Second­ Minister of this country how he should conduct ly, the evidence given before this commission himself. Consequently I think it is high time confirmed that the Coloureds were discovering the hon. member took a look at himself and an identity and a group consciousness of their at the reflection of what he is in the political own. The hon. member for Karoo has just life of South Africa. Mr. Speaker, I do not said: Why did we not view the Coloureds as want to descend to the level of personalities, part of the larger framework of the South but let me say this: He made attacks here, African population? Sir, 1 am not calling the apart from the attack on the Prime Minister, report to witness now; 1 am now calling to attacks which we scornfully reject; as well as witness the hon. member for Yeoville, who in attacks on people he is supposed to defend the newspaper article which the hon. the Prime and to represent. These attacks were prejudicial Minister also quoted, told us the following— to this Coloured Persons’ Representative Coun­ cil which has been gladly accepted by all the They see themselves more than ever be­ witnesses. He said something about the “sky” fore as a separate group or community which being the “limit”. He put it this way: “The is removed from other communities—also sky is the limit”. Sir, I want to give you the from the Whites. assurance that the limit we are setting is not the “merging of all groups into a Common Roll”. The third point which one finds striking when It is the heavenly arch he has set for himself. you go through the report, is the practical But I shall return to the hon. member again in realism of the Coloured population in respect a moment. I just want to tell him in the mean­ of the task which lies ahead. The witnesses time that he was really complimenting him­ who appeared before us, expressed opinions in self this afternoon when he began by visualiz­ regard to what the ultimate objective could be. ing himself as the “thorn in the Prime Minis­ because they were asked to do so, but their ter’s side". Just imagine. Sir! The thorn in interests and their evidence dealt with the im­ the Prime Minister’s side! He is not even a mediate task which lay ahead, not what would burr. But if he is not a thorn in the flesh of happen in a 100 or 50 years’ time, but the the United Party caucus, we must accept that immediate socio-economic development of the his memorandums and his statements are posies Coloureds and their immediate requirements. in their political thought. Then we accept that We asked one of the witnesses, Dr. Du Plessis, that is the position and we deal with them how he saw our task. After Dr. Du Plessis accordingly. had discussed this entire matter of the future (on page 327). the _ question was put to him *An HON. MEMBER: He is a com (lid- whether the following was an accurate sum­ doring). mary of his view (translation)— *Mr. W. W. B. HAVEMANN: Now I just In other words, the most immediate task want to refer very briefly to the activities of before this commission, and for the Govern­ the commission, and I wish to start by saying ment of the country, is to find, in the fore­ the following about its chairman. As hon. mem­ seeable future, a solution along the lines of bers on that side have testified, I too want to separateness, abolition of representation in testify that, in spite of the most acute differ­ the White Parliament in order to develop as ence of opinion between us as commission rapidly as possible in this way the develop­ members, the activities of the commission and ing possibilities and potential of the separate its proceedings were characterized throughout councils. Is that how you see the develop­ by the greatest degree of courtesy and good ment? breeding. In spite of the difference of opinion this commission comported itself in the best Dr. Du Plessis’s reply to that was “yes”. parliamentary tradition. That image which the commission presented throughout, is to the Fourthly we see very clearly from this report highest degree attributable to the exception­ that our only choice lies between two things, ally capable leadership of its chairman. either separate political development or poli­ 1349 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1350 tical integration. There is no other alternative, dence. Of them nine were either church bodies and this the witnesses also stated to us. These or representatives of white political parties—• are the two alternatives. Political integration is the Liberal Party, the Progressive Party—or unacceptable to the Whites; for the Coloureds they were trade unions or workers’ organiza­ and the Indians it is unfair, a handicap to their tions, or Indian representatives. The non­ development and discriminatory in practice, political bodies were concerned with one ques­ and it must lead to inevitable frustration. tion only and that was to what extent the legis­ Fifthly, this report revealed that the prin­ lation would be prejudicial to them in their cipal cause of political interference was the activities, ecclesiastical or otherwise. Of the 19 presence in this House of Assembly of white remaining bodies which were concerned directly representatives, and the alternative, as the wit­ or indirectly with the Coloureds and their poli­ nesses put it to us, was that Coloureds should tics. no less than 14 admitted that there had represent Coloureds in this House. The alterna­ been interference and requested that some­ tive therefore is political integration, political thing would have to be done to prohibit inter­ integration which the Whites do not want and ference, particularly on a party-political level. which the Coloureds do not desire. They admitted that there were practical prob­ lems but they also emphasized that there were Sixthly, it is very clear to us from the evi­ malpractices. On page 123 of the report I put dence that the retention of white representatives it to the Leader of the South African Labour here, or the introduction of Coloured represen­ Partv that the aim of his party in its constitu­ tatives for the Coloureds in the white parlia­ tion was described as follows: To consolidate ment, alongside the Coloured Persons’ Repre­ the position of the Coloured people in South sentative Council which is a developing body, Africa. I then went on to ask him (transla­ implies in essence an untenable, indefensible tion)— political dualism, a dualism which rests on a politically weak foundation, which is politically But suppose the political organization of explosive and which will have hampering and another population group and their financial frustrating effect on the socio-political develop­ means are employed to influence the elections ment of the Coloured. for the Coloured Persons’ Representative In the seventh place there was sufficient evi­ Council in a certain direction, would it not dence before the commission to indicate that mean that the aim of your party, namely to something would have to be done to eliminate consolidate the position of the Coloureds, was the harmful interference on the part of one being undermined? population group in the political affairs of another population group, particularly on a party-political level. His reply was (translation)— In the eighth place the evidence before the commission gave us clear proof of the United T concede that this is possible. When you Party’s reckless political game. The hon. the talk of finances you have a real point. But Prime Minister has already referred to that, and if you ask me whether it could handicap the I shall presently quote further evidence in this consolidation of the position of the Colour­ connection. eds, then I must honestly say ‘yes”. In the ninth place this report and the discus­ Sir, in order not to waste any time I am merely sion which followed upon this as well as re­ going to refer to the following evidence in this ports in the Press, taught us that the Opposition connection which was submitted to the com­ have, after two decades of struggle, accepted mission : The South African Labour Party, page the principle of separate Voters’ Rolls and that 123; the Rev. Mr. J. A. J. Steenkamp, page it is now presenting this political dish to the 21 and 129; the Conservative Party, pages 11 voting public. It is an apartheid-political dish, and 141; the “Federate Kleurlingvolksparty”, but it is very strongly flavoured with Institute pages 150 and 158; the Rev. Mr. T. P. Botha, of Race Relations salt and it is being served pages 34, 163, 167; the District Six Association, with a Progressive Party sauce. pages 45 and 172; J. P. Johnson, pages 10 and 181; Judge Van Wyk de Vries, page 225; Sabra, Mrs. H. SUZMAN: We will see at the next pages 62 to 65; the Rev. Engelbrecht, page 275; election. Prof. S. P. Olivier, page 279; Dr. I. D. du Plessis, page 327; Mr. S. Dollie, pages 50 and *Mr. W. W. B. HAVEMANN: The hon. 329; and Mr. Holland M.P., pages 352 and 353. member for Houghton is saying “we will see at The central principle of the Bill referred to the next election”. I take it that she will go us was to investigate the entire matter of un­ and regale herself on that dish, together with authorized or harmful interference, particularly the Opposition. on a political level, and how it should be Mr. Speaker, I now want to come to the eliminated. Sir, after all this evidence which I question of improper interference. The minority have mentioned here, which confirmed through­ Report stated that there was overwhelming evi­ out that something would have to be done, how dence that this entire matter was covered bv dare the minority group tell us that there was the Electoral Act. But surely the Report does insufficient evidence? How dare they tell us that not tally with the facts. It does not tally with they cannot see how it was practicable? When the facts1 at all. Twenty-eight individual bodies we accepted the principle, with a vote on the appeared before the commission to give evi­ commission, as the Minister indicated, that we 1351 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1352 should in fact do something, and subsequently haps hamper us in the implementation of a wanted to hold a consultation in regard to the new political integration policy, whereas it matter, they refused to participate in that con­ would now be possible for us to practise poli­ sultation. It is clearly indicated in the minutes. tics amongst the Coloureds. After we adopted the resolution that something But, Sir, that is not the worst. We have two would have to be done, the hon. members reports before this House, a minority report were gone. Hon. members will find this re­ on representation, and a majority report. The corded on page 31 of the minutes. majority report comes forward positively and sincerely with what it believes; it makes con­ *An HON. MEMBER: They are like the crete proposals, based on the belief of those U.N.; they walk out if they cannot have on this side of the House in the principle of their own way. separate freedom and separate development. But what does one find in the minority re­ *Mr. W. W. B. HAVEMANN: The fact port? It is vague, pious and non-committal. All that something would have to be done, was that they say in regard to this representation what gave rise to the appointment of the com­ is that it ought to be retained “in some defined mission. The hon. the Leader of the Opposi­ form”, but nowhere is the “form” defined. tion told us that great irregularities were taking That is the last word on the matter. All the place. The hon. member for Peninsula waxed minority group placed on record was a ques­ lyrical in regard to these irregularities as he tion mark on the political record of South explained them to us in this House. On page Africa, a question mark after the sitting of 163 of the report the hon. member for Penin­ the commission: Can any one help us find a sula put a question to a witness, but he was not policy? That was the stage they had then actually putting a question; he was putting an arrived at. Of the hon. members who spoke opinion to the witness which he wanted con­ about onus and said: “Those who wish to firmed— change the position must justify it.” I want to ask them to justify the onus resting on them. I take it you do agree that it is politically and morally wrong for a political party to We had the following course of events, to try and get for itself a forum in Parliament which the hon. the Prime Minister referred on the backs of the Coloured people? yesterday: A first motion, emanating from the members of the United Party, for the re­ Reply— tention of the Common Voters’ Roll and the return of the Coloureds to it. This was nega­ I do not think there is anything more tived. Within 15 minutes there was another vicious. motion, that of the hon. member for Penin­ sula, and this they supported lock, stock and barrel. Sir, they were so precipitate that we His next question— did not even have a chance to move a motion. Then I experienced on this commission the If it is possible in a practical way to legis­ greatest political about-face which we have late against something of that nature, do you ever had in South Africa, all within the scope agree that we should attempt drawing up and of one hour. The U.N. were no match for introducing such legislation? Yes, if it is these people when they accepted this second practically possible. motion with its separate voters’ rolls. Why was this motion which they then voted for, Sir, they did not even try to draw up some­ not followed up in their report? There was no thing practical; they offered no solution what­ mention of separate voters’ rolls in that mino­ soever. Sir, if the electoral laws of the country rity report. 1 wonder, at that moment when it are adequate and cover these circumstances, happened, how Advocate Strauss would have then I want to point out that surely the elec­ felt if we think of his words in the Joint Sit­ toral laws were necessary; surely they have ting (14th June, 1954, col. 579)— been in existence for many years; surely the Opposition was well acquainted with them— We believe, with the deepest conviction, the hon. member for Peninsula was well ac­ apart from the question of the moral issue, quainted with them. How was it that they we believe on the merits of the case that the suddenly came to discover that the electoral Common Roll is vital in the interests of laws were good enough to save the position? South Africa, that it is vital in the interests Why did they come to this House and hold of all South Africans, and that it is vital in long tirades in regard to the impossible thing.; the interests of maintaining Western civili­ the Progressive Party were getting up to? Why zation in South Africa. Let there be no did they not give them a drubbing under the doubt about that. electoral laws? No, all of a sudden the elec­ He was speaking on behalf of all those hon. toral laws were wonderful and quite adequate. members on the opposite side, and he was I wonder whether this changed attitude could placing it on record for generations to come. possibly bear any relation to the new policy He quoted General Smuts and said that Gene­ of the United Party, which then thought: If ral Smuts had said (col. 584) (translation)— we were perhaps to support the practical sug­ gestions of the members of the commission You are going to drive all the non-Whites who signed the majority report, it could per­ into one camp. We are afraid of those 1353 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1354

things. In the past we have kept the popula­ U.P. man’s plea for non-white M.P.s. Mr. tion together. Let it remain that way. Graham Eden, M.P., the only Coloured re­ presentative who is a member of the United This is as the hon. member for Karoo wants Party caucus, said that we should accept the it. Then Mr. Strauss went on— principle that all non-white groups should be represented by their own people on a You cannot keep the population together separate roll in Parliament. if you put them on a separate roll. It is also a matter for the conscience of the Then the hon. member went on to say— nation. Keep that conscience clean; keep it clear. That is why I believe that Coloureds and Indians should be represented by their own He went on to say— people in Parliament, and that the same principle should apply to the Bantu at a He (General Smuts) was perfectly clear later stage. and explicit about the Coloured vote, that it was not only a matter for the conscience of This is what he did on the eve of the con­ the people but that it was a question of the gress. true and abiding interests of South Africa, and if that interest was taken into account *Mr. S. F. KOTZÉ: At least the old man is their only policy was to keep the Coloureds honest. on the Common Roll . . . and not to follow the path of the Government. *Mr. W. W. B. HAVEMANN: After my hon. leader in this House raised this same But we continue. In the minority report they matter last year and asked the hon. the Leader did not mention these two motions at all, but of the Opposition whether he agreed with the what was the position? We find in the Press, statements and opinions of the hon. member from the pen of the hon. member for Yeo- for Karoo, the leaders of the United Party ville, that for all of two years they have been could no longer deny that there was anything engaged on a commission of inquiry of their of this nature. They must surely have asked own, together with the Coloured leaders. The him what his intention was. But on the eve of hon. member for Yeoville consulted with them, the congress he was given banner headlines and they made two demands. The one was for and he made an appeal to his congress to equal rights. That we could not give them. make a point of thinking along these lines. They then put an alternative and this was Why did he do that? Did he not do that be­ accepted. At the stage when this vote was cause he had permission to do so? being taken, on 29th August, this commission We now come to this account of the cir­ had been sitting for a long time. To tell the cumstances, i.e. first, the voting on the com­ truth, the chairman of that commission was mission for the Common Voters’ Roll with also a member of this commission. But then qualifications for franchise, and then a second they still did not know where they wanted to motion, namely separate voters’ rolls without go. Then they still came forward with conflict­ any qualification; and after that a report with­ ing policies. What muddled thinking! I want out mention of either Common Voters’ Rolls to add this. The hon. the Leader of the Oppo­ or a separate voters’ roll or qualifications. sition stated in the Press—I am quoting from After that we had a Bloemfontein congress the Sunday Times of 5th November, 1967— with separate voters’ rolls, and qualifications which remain undefined. But we now find two Sir De Villiers said the party was waiting kinds of Coloured citizens, those who vote for for the Report of the Parliamentary Com­ the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council, mission on the Improper Interference Bill. with no qualifications, and those who vote for Sir De Villiers said the report would indi­ representation in this House, with qualifica­ cate Government thinking on non-white re­ tions which remain undefined. Nobody knows presentation. who they are. In other words, the United Party He was quite certain that this commission is now creating two kinds of voters within the would give an indication of Government think­ Coloured group. It is now creating, with its ing. But did he not also think that his people policy, if it should ever happen that it came would give an indication of “Opposition think­ into power, discrimination and frustration, ing”? And what did we get from them? A and it is creating an impossible situation which report which states precisely nothing. If we is illustrated for us very revealingly in the consider the behaviour of the Opposition, we evidence on page 139. There Mr. Fortuin find the most damning picture of chaotic states these very significant words (transla­ thinking. They have been engaged on this in­ tion)—■ vestigation for two years; yet a caucus mem­ ber submits a memorandum to our commis­ I can foresee that if, for example, four sion which differs from this new policy. On Coloureds are to have a seat in Parliament, the eve of the congress, the night or two be­ a ridiculous situation is going to be created. fore, the hon. member for Karoo came to The Coloureds will be thrown into confu­ light with great banner headlines in the Press sion as a result, because they will not know and made an appeal— what group are speaking on their behalf, 1355 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1356

that is whether it is those in the House of attained political maturity. We have heard Assembly or whether it is those in the that the Commission found evidence that the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council. Coloureds were subject to political exploitation Apart from that those representatives in the and to improper interference. We were told, White Parliament will come along and state and again this is just a flat statement—there is that they are sitting together with the Whites, nothing at all to back this up—that in order to whereas the other are “Hottentots” who are introduce a more effective type of political re­ sitting alone. presentation for the Coloureds they would have to lose the representation they already have in Do you see, Sir, where this policy is heading? this House and that they would be compen­ To sow that kind of dissension in the ranks of sated for the loss of that representation by a the Coloureds. Now, after I have sketched the Coloured Legislative Council. We were also told situation, we find ourselves in the midst of that a Bill would have to be introduced in this “confusion worse confounded” and we order to control this interference across the hear one very clear voice, one man speaking colour line in politics, and no doubt this Bill, with "clarity”. The hon. member for Karoo when it does emerge, will not be called the has been sharply attacked here, but I want Improper Interference Bill, because that has to take up the cudgels on his behalf. I think gone by the board, but it will probably be he deserves great credit, because he, at least called the Protection of Politically Immature stated in plain terms what he thought. Now I Coloured Persons Bill. just wondered, with reference to this Press re­ Now let me deal with these four findings. port on the eve of the congress, whether he First of all, the Deputy Minister of Police, the did not perhaps have a function to fulfil? Was Chairman of the Commission, expressed sur­ it not perhaps a feeler which was being put prise that so few representatives of Coloured out to see how the wind would blow on the organizations appeared to give evidence before congress? [Time expired.] the Commission, and he was surprised to find that so little interest was displayed by the Mrs. H. SUZMAN: The hon. member who Coloured people in this Commission. The has just sat down rode into Parliament on the reason for this did not seem clear to the De­ backs of the voters of Odendaalsrus, and he puty Minister, but of course the real reason is has given us an interesting analysis of the that the Government has quite deliberately Commission of which he was a member. I inhibited, as far as it possibly can, any politi­ must say that this is the first analysis we have cal organizations amongst non-Whites. I might heard in this House, because the Commission say also it has deliberately destroyed politically itself in its majority report did not give any aware people in this country who are non- such analysis. [Interjections.] The hon. mem­ Whites, and therefore the evidence that was ber talked about the minority report giving presented to the Commission must be read very little by way of analysis and recommen­ against the background of the years of Govern­ dations, but I have the same comment to make ment interference with the political activities of about the majority report. One does not ex­ the non-white people. What is this background? pect a commission report of this kind to con­ First and foremost it is one of intimidation, tain the analytical recommendations that one visits by the security branch to any Coloured finds in a judicial commission such as the person who has the impertinence to take an Fagan Commission, and one would not expect interest in political affairs. I say it is a back­ the statistical information that one would find ground of threats. in a commission such as the Van Eck Commis­ sion or the Industrial Legislation Commission, Mr. W. W. B. HAVEMANN: Why didn’t but one would have expected something more you come and lead that evidence before the than just a glib statement which the majority commission? report contains. I cannot say that I was really surprised at this. The hon. the Leader of the Mrs. H. SUZMAN: My party presented an Opposition stated, when he asked for a debate excellent memorandum to the commission . . . in this House on this Commission, that he had been disappointed at what had emanated from Mr. W. W. B. HAVEMANN: But why did the Commission. I cannot say that I was dis­ your party not come and give oral evidence? appointed. I was not even surprised, because I knew perfectly well that nothing could come Mrs. H. SUZMAN: My party submitted an out of that Commission. I knew that the excellent memorandum and, in fact, also Government members were going into that appeared before the commission but the inter­ Commission with preconceived ideas and that esting thing is that no questions were put to its no matter what evidence was presented before representative; no examination whatever took them, they were going to emerge from the place and that despite the accusations inside Commission with exactly the same ideas. So and outside the House about the way in which it comes as no surprise to me to find what has my party is supposed to have behaved. I have in fact emanated from this Commission. referred to a background of intimidation and What have we had from the Commission in of visits by the security branch. In addition, fact? We have had the glib statement, firstly, we have had bannings, magisterial warnings, that the Coloureds as a whole are not inter­ massive administrative action through the ested in politics and that they have not yet Group Areas Act, through the appointment of 1357 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1358

teachers and through job reservation. This is slung out of any reputable court of law had a background of utter futility for the Coloured the proceedings been conducted in that manner, people, a background of frustration. This frus­ and he knows it. tration was immeasurably increased when the Government came to this House with legisla­ Mr. A. BLOOMBERG: May I ask you a tion to prohibit so-called “improper interfer­ question? ence”. By doing that they made it absolutely clear that no matter what the Coloured people Mrs. H. SUZMAN: No, I am sorry. I do wanted, no matter what the voters wanted, not have the time. If I have time later on, by they were not going to be allowed to elect re­ all means you can ask me. presentatives of their own choice. So, their background is one of immeasurable frustration. Mr. A. BLOOMBERG: You can just say in This is why so few Coloureds came to the passing, was the witness duly convicted in a commission to give evidence and this is why criminal court or not? they are showing so little interest in what is going on. The Coloureds are not politically Mrs. H. SUZMAN: Yes, but it has nothing immature—they are politically emasculated and whatever to do with my party. they have been emasculated deliberately by the Government. That is the truth of the matter. Mr. A. BLOOMBERG: Despite the fact that When one compares the amount of interest he was defended by the Progressive Party? that the Coloureds have shown in this com­ mission with the amount of interest they Mrs. H. SUZMAN: He was not defended showed when the commission on separate re­ by the Progressive Party; he said he was re­ presentation sat in the early 50’s, it is all too fused defence. You should read your own evi­ evident what has happened to the Coloured dence. people over the last 20 years—they have had the guts knocked out of them. The political Mr. A. BLOOMBERG: The Progressive guts has been knocked out of the Coloured Party promised to defend him? people. That is why they took so little interest in this commission. Mrs. H. SUZMAN: No, we did not. Any As regard this so-called “improper interfer­ way, to continue with this, the real truth is ence”, let us for a moment examine this flimsy there is not a shred of evidence about any of pretext under which the Government now this improper interference. It came down in the wants to strip the Coloured people of their end to some registrations which were im­ rights. I have read through the report of the properly witnessed by commissioners of oaths. commission very carefully. But the only evi­ This man was not one of our employees; he dence I could find to “support” all this talk was a State employee, as a matter of fact. But about so-called “improper interference” came leaving that to one side, there was absolutely from a witness named Brink. He was cross- no evidence except about some of these regis­ examined by the hon. member for Peninsula, trations. Incidentally the people concerned were who is a very skilful lawyer. [Interjections.] put back on the roll. It was not as if they were The hon. member need not thank me for it. not entitled to be enrolled. The commissioner In a moment I am going to say other things had not witnessed their applications in the for which he will not thank me. The hon. correct way. It was not anything approaching member put a series of leading questions to the improper procedures that go on at white that witness—a very unreliable witness I might elections, believe me. This had nothing to do add; I can give chapter and verse to this House with the election as such; this was registration of his unreliability. But the hon. member put procedure. I have never heard anybody suggest a series of leading questions to the witness, that white people should be disfranchised be­ questions which literally put words into the cause there had been irregularities at elections. witness’ mouth. So, we end up with a lot of I have never heard that suggested by the hon. unsubstantiated insinuations and allegations the Minister of Sport even, and he has made which would never have been made outside some extraordinary suggestions in this House, the protection of the commission. There was believe me. If the Government really wanted another attempt at getting evidence but this to do something about these registrations, was mainly aimed at the United Party. This what it should have done, of course, was to was done by the hon. member for Outeniqua, make the procedure more easy for the Col­ who is at the present moment not in this oured people. That is what it should have House. He took advantage of the commission’s done. It should not have made is so difficult sessions to take a good old swipe at the United for Coloured people to get on the roll, as it Party for the way in which they had treated has done. It should have put its own offices at him when he had been a party organizer and the disposal, in fact, of the Coloured people was seeking nomination. At the same time he to enable them to be registered. took a few swipes at the Progressive Party as But the fact of the matter is, of course, is well, but only by means of insinuations—no that the Government is not concerned about evidence whatsoever which would stand up to irregularities, not remotely; it is not concerned an examination in a proper court of law. I at all. What it is concerned about, what it might tell the hon. member for Peninsula had been concerned about all along, is the that he and his witness would have both been prospect of having four more Progressive 1359 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1360

M.P.s. That is really what has been worrying taking separate representation in Parliament it. I could say this is a compliment to myself, away from the Coloured people for one but I do not, however, because I know the simple reason only—because the Coloured real background to this. The real background people were beginning to vote for the Pro­ is that the Government cannot bear to have gressive Party. That is all. The whole thing exposed the simple stark fact that, whatever is as simple as that. That is what it was all they say about the Coloured people being so about in the fifties and this is what it is all grateful for everything that has been done about in the sixties. It is because when the for them, about the Coloured people feeling Government finds the Coloured people are so strongly about the magnificent work of the voting into Parliament people they do not like, Coloured Council, whatever they say about the Government simply and quietly removes that, they know perfectly well that, given the the right of franchise from those people. option, given the ordinary, democratic choice, We hear from the Government, from mem­ the Coloured people would not opt for separ­ bers of the commission, and especially from ate amenities, for separate representation, for the hon. the Prime Minister yesterday, that the separate freedoms—they would opt against Coloureds are going to be given something apartheid. They would back the people who much better than they ever had. This is the promise them a fair deal; the people who third contention of the commission. Something promise them, and would give them if they much better, they say. Yes, the hon. member had the power, equal opportunities for their nods his head. It is a pity the Coloureds have children, compulsory education, vocational not been given the option through the ballot training; the people who would do away with box to decide if that is what they want. They group areas, and things like that. Those are have not been given a referendum to decide the things that concern the Coloured people, if that is what they want. No, Sir, not at all— not these separate freedoms that we hear so the white man always knows what is best for much about. And the Government knows per­ the Coloured man, especially if it is to the fectly well that, given the chance to exercise white man’s benefit. It is said they are going their political rights, that is the way in which to be given something better than anything the Coloured people would exercise those they have ever had before. This brings me to rights. By the way, they do not necessarily the incredible statement I heard from the desire “one man, one vote”, which, incident­ Prime Minister yesterday. He had the effron­ ally, one of the somewhat ignorant men of tery to stand up in this House yesterday to the commission asserted to be the policy of make the extraordinary statement that the the Progressive Party. It was the hon. member Coloureds as a whole never ever had any for Kimberley (South). political rights in the Republic and that they In fact that is what this whole commission were now going to enjoy those rights for the is about, nothing else. The Government was first time. trying to find a way, a tortuous way, but nevertheless a way, in which it could prevent An HON. MEMBER: Do you not agree? the Coloured people from showing quite clear­ ly and conclusively that they unequivocally Mrs. H. SUZMAN: No, I do not agree. reject the whole oppressive concept of separ­ ate development, of apartheid. As I say, the *An HON. MEMBER: With what do you Government can say what it likes, it knows agree? the ballot boxes would prove the contrary. The ballot boxes would prove the Coloureds Mrs. H. SUZMAN: Wait a minute, I will are not accepting apartheid, and the ballot tell you if you will only be patient. This is boxes would show that the acceptance, such really a barefaced piece of effrontery and I as it is, is under duress, and that is a very reckon the Prime Minister should get an different thing indeed from voluntary accept­ Oscar for this, or at least the State President’s ance. The ballot boxes would show there is prize. Let us give him the State President’s despair and resignation in this acceptance, and prize for this. Let us examine his statement. that there is no joy or hope in the acceptance It is perfectly true that the Coloured people of separate representation. as a whole did not have voting rights outside I say that all the guff we have heard and the Cape Province and Natal, and that only all the guff we have read about irregularities males had the vote. That is absolutely true. is just a smokescreen—and I might say a com­ But the implication of what the Prime Minister pletely transparent smokescreen at that. It is said was that what they had was of no use a smokescreen for the most blatant, cynical, to them anyway—it was absolutely useless, and unprincipled act of political expediency, and this is just not true. Because if it were true that is the only way that I can describe what that the Coloured vote was meaningless, will is going to be the legislative follow-ups of somebody tell me why we had the constitu­ this commission’s report. tional crisis of the fifties? Will somebody tell In 1950 the Government began its cam­ me why the Government made every effort paign to take the Coloureds off the Common to get the Coloured people off the Common Roll, and they did it then because the Roll with these meaningless rights that they Coloured people were voting for the United had? Why did the Government try to pass Party. That is the only reason why they did a High Court of Parliament Act? Why was it it. Now, in the 1960’s, the Government is now necessary to have a packed Senate? Why did 1361 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1362 we have such a huge upheaval throughout ly, but I shall do the best I can . . . [Inter­ the country for these “meaningless votes” that jections.] I want to say that it is just this the Coloureds enjoyed? Why did we have all demographic reality which has motivated the that? I will tell hon. members. It is because United Party’s recent change of faith. Unfor­ by 1948 the Coloured vote, limited though it tunately this is true. It is a result of the was, was beginning to affect the elections in demographic picture, the rising number of the Cape Province, and there were at least Coloured voters who could come on to the 20 seats where the number of Coloureds on Roll. And by the way, if there had been the Voters Roll was more than the majority proper registration, of course, the Coloured of the party that won. 1 take the Paarl elec­ voters in the old days when they were on the tion of 1948 just as an example. There were Common Roll, would have affected many, hundreds of Coloureds on the Common Roll many more seats in the Cape Province, which there and the seat was won by 348 votes. is why registration was made so difficult. That is why the Coloureds had to come off the This is quite clear and this fact has emerged Common Roll, and that is why the hon. the from the findings of the Connan Commission Minister of Defence, then a party organizer, which advised the United Party not to adhere went speeding up and down the country on to its promise to put the Coloured voters back his broomstick, or bicycle, if you like—if he on the Common Roll. And it was not only the were a female, I would say broomstick, but he male voters who were actually on the Com­ is a male, so I will refer to his bicycle—he mon Roll when they were taken off, as the hon. went up and down the country, this organizer, Leader of the Opposition seems to imply; it making racial trouble, preaching racial hatred, was a promise to all the Coloured males in the hostility, wherever he went, in every consti­ Cape and Natal who were already on the roll tuency in the Cape, saying, “The Coloureds plus all the new voters would have to qualify. must come off the Roll because the Coloured vote is the determining factor in so many of Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF: No women. the Cape seats”. So for the Prime Minister to say this vote is meaningless is nonsense; it is Mrs. H. SUZMAN: O, surely no women! I absolute nonsense. know the hon. member would hate to have women. [Laughter.] He is not so keen on The MINISTER OF FORESTRY: He did women in Parliament either. We know why not say that; he said it was the first time that is. He knows that, too. Anyway, if this is that all the Coloureds of South Africa were no longer so, perhaps it is the hon. member getting the vote. [Interjections.] for Wynberg who has changed his mind. But to return to the subject, the whole reason why Mrs. H. SUZMAN: He said it was the first the United Party has changed its mind about time they enjoyed political rights. [Interjec­ the Coloured franchise, is because an examina­ tions.] tion by the Connan Commission made it rea­ lize that within a foreseeable period, if The DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! Coloured voters were put back on the Com­ mon Roll in the Cape, no matter what the Mrs. H. SUZMAN: I might say, that apart qualifications, they might very well outnumber from this aspect, other Governments in the the white voters of the Cape, within, as I say, past have been aware of the importance of that foreseeable future. This is why they the Coloured vote, not only this Nationalist changed their minds. They think that politic­ Party Government, such as when they put the ally this is a terribly dangerous thing to pro­ white women on the Roll and left Coloured pose. That is why they have changed their women off the Roll, and when they removed minds. Gone are the brave words about 100 registration qualifications for Whites, but did year old common franchise. Gone are the not remove them for non-Whites. All this strenuous arguments we listened to about the was done for one reason, namely to reduce dangers inherent in the bloc vote. Those are the influence of the Coloured vote. That is all. gone. Gone are the promises that were made It was too influential. I might say the essence to restore the Coloureds to the Common Roll. of having a vote is not to have universal The only thing that has not gone, are the 12 franchise for a meaningless body but to have M.P.s that were supposed to go. Has every­ a vote which is going to have an influence body forgotten the strong statements made by on the power structure in the political life the hon. member for Constantia, who is not of the country. That is the reason for the here to-day? He said: vote, and that is why it was meaningful, even if it was limited, as long as it was on the “I can give my unqualified assurance as Common Roll. I must say, even on the separ­ Chairman of the Peninsula Council of the ate Roll, it has some meaning, simply because United Party that, on the day the United it was some sort of quid pro quo. Removal Party seeks to evade its undertaking to the will therefore be a diminution of rights, but Coloured people of the Cape, or to abro­ nothing like the diminution it was when the gate its promise repeatedly given, namely Coloureds came off the Common Roll. that the Coloured people shall not be poli­ Now I am afraid that I now have to turn tically segregated, the United Party will lose my attention to the Opposition. [Interjections.] 12 M.Ps in the Cape. I know that possibi­ Now, 1 have not got much time, unfortunate­ lity will never arise.” 1363 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1364

Everything is gone, but the 12 M.P.s have not will my Party, as long as I possibly can, be­ gone. They are still here. It was not necessary cause that is the meaning of democracy. These for the hon. member for Odendaalsrus to hon. members are so riddled with their autho­ quote Mr. Strauss. There are much more re­ ritarian ideas that they have not the glimmer­ cent quotations, by the present Leader of the ing of understanding about Parliamentary demo­ Opposition. In 1960 Sir De Villiers Graaff said cracy. They have not any idea that what is that “the Coloured people had reached the meant by democracy, is the right to oppose, to standard where they should be accepted as a put forward unpopular opinions and to op­ Western people. As a first step they should be pose the regime of the day. That is what Par­ restored on the Common Voter’s Roll”. In 1961 liamentary democracy is. there was a United Party publication, headed “The answer: you want it; we have it.” I sug­ It is our duty, our right to persuade the gest they change that name to “Have horse— voters of South Africa that they should sling will trade! ” That United Party promise that out this unrealistic oppressive policy of apart­ Coloureds will be accepted as part of the heid and that they should substitute something Western group and that they will be restored which is more in keeping with the thinking of on the Common Roll with the right to sit in the Western world. That is our right. [Inter­ Parliament if so elected, has been abrogated. jections.] Yes, but then the hon. members Incidentally the right to have Coloured men must not say that as long as I put forward any sitting in Parliament was accepted by the ideas within the framework of apartheid, I am United Party as long ago as 1961. This is not all right. But the minute I do not, the sugges­ an advance, although it was put forward by tion is that one is subversive and unpatriotic the Press as a great advance by the United and that one is undermining law and order. Party that they had decided that they would One becomes an “agitator” immediately, as if allow Coloured men in Parliament on a sepa­ it requires me or anybody else, for that mat­ rate Roll, at the Bloemfontein Conference. ter, to tell the non-Whites about the disabilities Way back in 1961 they accepted the idea that under which they are suffering in South Africa. Coloured men on the Common Roll would be The vote, I say again, is only a means of allowed to sit in Parliament. I could quote exercising power and influence in the course of from more recent statements, made in 1965 politics in a country. That is why removing but it is all irrelevant. It does not matter any the Coloureds from the Common Roll was a more. grave diminution of rights. And now the Government is replacing what they have here, It is quite true, as the hon. member for where they could at least have had four re­ Parow and the hon. Leader of the Opposition presentatives who might have represented the said, that none of the Coloureds who did give views they want; not the people who are be­ evidence, were interested in going back to the ing kept in office now for double the time they situation as it was in 1955. Of course not. are supposed to be by the Government’s edict, What the Coloureds want, is not to go back to but people whom they would have chosen to that sort of Common Roll in the Cape and represent their views. That is why this too is a Natal, and for males only. What they want is diminution of the rights of the Coloured what any intelligent political person wants, people. namely a meaningful vote throughout South Africa. In other words, they want Common I am not going to go into any detail about Roll representation for all people who qualify, this legislative assembly which has been pro­ that is all people who can show they have posed by the majority report, because we will reached certain standards of education or of have a Bill dealing with it in this House, and I integration with a modern industrial society, will be able to say everything I want to say and a vote, of course, on a Common Roll for about that Bill. members of both sexes and throughout the I just want to say that no pious talk about country. Obviously that is what they want. I protecting the poor, immature Coloured per­ cannot see why anybody is surprised about son from political exploitation, no phoney ex­ that. planation about bigger and better rights will The hon. member for Malmesbury, point­ have mitigated the blow that the Coloured ing to me, yesterday said: “She and her party people will suffer when this proposal is are enemies of apartheid.” He is quite right. translated into legislative action. Of course we are enemies of apartheid. Shali I tell this House something? It is my and Mr. D. M. CARR: Mr. Speaker, I find my Party’s democratic right to be enemies of myself in disagreement with the hon. member apartheid. There is nothing sacrosanct about for Houghton. I say this for the simple reason apartheid. It is not the will of God. It is sim­ that the proper way in which this report must ply the political machinations of human be­ be seen as well as its background and the ings that have made apartheid and nothing problems before us requires a proper under­ else. If we purport as we do, to be a Western standing of our history. That is the proper democracy—and I have heard the hon. Prime background against which to consider this re­ Minister claim this time and again—it is my port and to take a decision. right, providing I behave lawfully and consti­ In 1853 when the Cape was a British colony, tutionally, to oppose official Government the British Colonial Office issued an instruc­ policy, to oppose apartheid as loudly as I care tion that Coloured males and Native males in to do. And I shall continue to do so, and so the Cape must be put on the Voters’ Roll. 1365 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1366

This was done without their asking for it through history. It must be remembered that themselves. It was an instruction and a con­ an overseas nation attempted to tie the hands dition on which the Cape received represen­ of white South Africa by writing into the Act tative Government from Britain. Coloured and of Union in section 35 that the Coloured and Native males had to be placed on the Com­ Native vote was to be entrenched in the Cape. mon Roll with the right to elect Members of Parliament. Between that instruction and the Mr. T. G. HUGHES: The British Govern­ position in which we find ourselves to-day ment made no alteration to the Act as it was politically, there is a straight, unbroken line. prepared in South Africa. Let us consider what happened when we came into being as a nation in 1909. In 1909 there were four colonies, namely, the Cape, Natal, Mr. D. M. CARR: Mr. Speaker, I am satis­ the Transvaal and the Free State. In the Free fied that the entrenchment of the Coloured State and the Transvaal where the white South and Native vote was brought about at the Africans had their say on their own, only behest of an overseas nation against the wishes white people were elected to their legislative of South Africa. We have heard from the assemblies. It must be remembered that the other side of the House talk about Coloured placing of the Coloureds on the Common rights. During all the years that the Coloureds Roll in the Cape was something that was were on the Common Roll, it is undoubtedly forced on South Africa from outside. South true that they remained backward and illiter­ Africa never wanted it. ate. The vote was no good to them. Admit­ tedly it was very useful to the United Party on many occasions but to the Coloured people Mr. T. G. HUGHES: You must read the it was no use at all. In 1912 the National history of the National Convention again. Party was formed with a view to solving the South African dilemma in the light of our Mr. D. M. CARR: I intend to talk about South African experience. After a long the National Convention now. When South struggle the Bantu were in 1936 taken off the Africa was to be brought into being as a Common Roll and given three white represen­ nation we were in the hands of Britain and tatives in this House. But after the war, in the only the British Government could bring us uncertain, difficult and dangerous post-war into being as a nation by passing the South world, the voters of white South Africa re­ Africa Act. It is true that the Transvaal, the turned the National Party with a mandate to Free State and Natal, the most English part of carry out their policy of separate development South Africa, were very unhappy about the as a solution for our problems. White South Coloured and Native franchise in the Cape. Africa obviously intends to preserve the white General Botha said that he had very strong views on the matter. But because he wanted to identity. Quite apart from moral and religious bring about Union, he obviously did not want considerations, it is quite obvious that we to clash with the British Government. In a cannot rule and arrange things selfishly. It has speech in 1909 in Johannesburg, General been, and will always be, the task of white Smuts said that the majority of white people South African statesmanship to arrange things were against the Coloured and Native fran­ in such a way that the white minority is safe, chise. We see, therefore, that two great South but that the Natives, Coloureds and Indians African statesmen knew at that time that the are also happy and contented. If this is not majority of white South Africans did not want brought about, we will have failed. Just as in Coloured and Native participation in the 1909 the entrenchment that a foreign nation Government of South Arica. General Botha had put into the Act of Union was a stumbling said that the Cape could not be blamed be­ block, so we found that to carry out our policy cause it was not responsible for the state of of separate development, the entrenchment of affairs. It had been forced upon them by an Coloured representation in the Act of Union overseas nation. While Britain for her own was a stumbling block. I should like to tell the reasons wanted the Act of Union passed, a hon. member for Houghton that that is the compromise was reached through the offices of reason for the constitutional crisis. White Natal wherebv the Coloured and the Native South Africa asserted its will to untie the knot franchise would be confined to the Cape only. with which Britain had tied its hands. That is Onlv white people could however be returned the explanation. We were fought in our efforts to Parliament. It is on record that General to solve this problem. We were not fought as a Botha—and I hope that the hon. the Leader political party or as South Africans of another of the Opposition is listening—said that if opinion. We were fought as if we were a there had been a different attitude about foreign invading enemy. As the hon. member Coloured and Native Members of Parliament, for Malmesbury said last night, any foreign- there would have been no Union. There can orientated person, any communist Solly Sachs, be no question but that General Botha ex­ was good enough to be inspanned in the fight pressed the views of South Africa. We must against the legitimate Government of South remember that when we are a white minority Africa and, instead of argument, we had vili­ nation in South Africa, we brought from fication and blatant hatred of the legitimate, Europe the _ industrial skills and the consti- properlv elected white South African Govern­ t”tional ability to rule and it was in the hands ment. There is no doubt that much of the of white South Africa that South Africa’s trouble we have to-day at the Olympics and problems were placed. This was brought about all over the world, stems from this hatred of 1367 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1368

South Africa to which a deposed Opposition genuine voice of the Coloured man. Sir, only gave expression in the world. people who are blind and refuse to see the truth will refuse to recognize this. Here is Mr. T. G. HUGHES: You must 'be very evidence of our good faith towards the gullible. Coloured people. If we wished to suppress him, would we give him this voice, not only Mr. D. M. CARR: A close look at much of in South Africa but in the world? Would we the anti-South African propaganda, convinces give him this chance to develop? Sir, I am one that it unmistakably bears the stamp satisfied that the decision we have taken will “Made in South Africa by the United Party”. be of tremendous advantage to the Coloured Sir, the hon. member for Houghton has man and to the whole of South Africa. spoken about Western democracy. It must be realized that the system of democratic govern­ Mrs. C. D. TAYLOR: Sir, I must say that ment in which we believe and which originated the hon. member for Maitland has got his in Western Europe and in Britain, only works history so cock-eyed that it is not worth while when one race is represented in Parliament. It replying very seriously to what he had to say. may sound all right overseas but every South May I just add that I do not think he is any African knows that it is no good saying that asset to the constituency of Maitland. At the the Coloured people speak English or Afri­ next election we are going to take his seat kaans and that they belong to the same back from him. churches as the Whites. We know that they Sir, without making any unpleasant insinua­ are different and that they react differently, tions with regard to the chairman of this com­ and they will always react differently when mission, who happens to be a good friend of mixed together with Whites politically. Not mine—we served together in the Cape Provin­ only do the Coloured people react differently, cial Council for many years—I nevertheless ask Asians also react differently. The Asian people my first question, and it is this: How seriously in Kenya are not very happy with Bantu rule. did the Government members on this commis­ We know very well that we must either have sion apply their minds to the issues contained political integration or complete political in the report? I go so far as to say that their separation, which most white South Africans minds were made up long before they started, want. We want a white Parliament. That is the and I say that Government policy on this issue unquestionable desire not only of Afrikaans­ had virtually been formulated long before the speaking South Africans in the National Party, commission completed its work. One can even it is the desire of the vast majority of South go so far as to say, and I do so without hesita­ Africans, right across the language line. It will tion, that the whole exercise might well be redound to the credit and honour of the described as something of a farce if it were National Party that it was this Government not for the opportunity which this commission which gave us a purely white South African undoubtedly gave to various Coloured and Parliament. This act will stand as a monument white bodies and to individuals to give evi­ to the present régime. dence before it, which evidence has since been Sir, this change that we are going to bring published for the public’s benefit. That evi­ about is obviously the right thing. It will be dence, as has already been stated in this House, to the advantage of everybody. Can anybody was published very much to the detriment of deny that since Bantu representation was re­ the Government’s cause. Sir, why do I say that moved from this House and the Bantu placed their policy was decided long before this com­ on the road to separate development, black/ mission even started its work? In the first in­ white relations have improved tremendously? stance, the hon. the Prime Minister in this The black man has never been as happy as House, on the 22nd September, 1966, had this he is to-day. As far as the Coloureds are to say— concerned, we moved first in the direction of separate representation, and because we moved The Coloureds who are represented here in the direction of separate development, we in the House of Assembly are not the Col­ were able to uplift the Coloureds education­ oureds of South Africa. They are the Col­ ally and to give them a better deal in the oureds of the Cape Province only and only economic sphere and as far as housing is the male Coloureds of the Cape Province concerned. But the Coloured leaders are not and only those who comply with certain developing. The presence of white representa­ qualifications. In other words, those are the tives in this Parliament stultifies Coloured de­ only ones we have to deal with here. Those velopment and, secondly, there is no question are the only ones represented here. What is that there has been very serious interference. the constitutional development as far as the A seat in this House is very valuable to propa­ National Party is concerned? gate political ideas and the temptation is always there to buy the votes of the Coloureds. The hon. the Prime Minister makes the posi­ I am satisfied that the proposed new legisla­ tion quite clear; he says— tion will be a tremendous asset to the Coloured people because for the first rime It is to move further and further away they will have a body consisting of a majority from Coloured representation in the House of eleoted members, a body which will be of Assembly. I now want to tell the hon able to give us and the outside world the member that that trend will continue and 1369 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1370

neither he nor I nor anyone among us will issue as far back as 1966. Mr. J. P. King, who stop it. It will find its natural course. Per­ was one of the members of the deputation that sonally I believe that it will find its natural submitted a memorandum and gave oral evi­ course on the day the Coloureds tell us that dence before the commission, wrote a letter they do not want this kind of representation. which appeared in Die Burger on the 26th September, 1966. This is what he had to say— Well, that is the last thing they have done. He ended by saying— Is dit nie nou duidelik en konsekwent met aparte ontwikkeling om die vier blankes wat I believe they will tell us that. I say the die Kleurlinge in die Parlement verteenwoor- trend in that direction is irresistible. dig, te vervang deur Kleurlinge nie? Waar- om nie vyf Kleurlinge daar plaas nie: een Sir, please note the word “irresistible”. vir S.W.A. en een vir elke provinsie? Die waarde wat die Kleurlinge aan parlementêre Then we have the hon. the Minister of Col­ verteenwoordiging heg, is te groot en be- oured Affairs making a statement in this House, langrik om hulle hierdie voorreg te ontneem. which was reported in Die Burger of the 23rd November, 1966, under the heading Verdwy- Then he went on to say— ning van L.V.’s. This was in 1966, long before this commission was appointed. The hon. the Kleurlinge in die Parlement beteken nie Minister in the course of his speech made the inmenging of integrasie nie. Dit is ’n ont- following remark— moeting op die hoogste vlak. Hierdie ont- moeting kan nie vir ewig vermy word nie. Die Kleurlingverteenwoordigers sal alleen Inteendeel, dit is uiters nodig, en nodig nou uit die Volksraad verdwyn as die Verteen- voordat dit te laat is. woordigende Kleurlingraad daarvoor vra. Sir, this was the deputy leader of the Federal Well, of course, the Council for Coloured Party who was asking as far back as 1966 for Affairs, as the hon. member for Karoo clearly direct representation by the Coloured people showed this afternoon, has asked for no such in this House. I would like to know to what thing. extent the hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs anticipated the report of this commission, be­ An HON. MEMBER: Are you proud of cause I have here a copy of a page or two the hon. member for Karoo? from Alpha, the journal of the Department of Coloured Affairs, giving an account of a Mrs. C. D. TAYLOR: I am very proud of meeting which the hon. the Minister held in him. He is a friend of mine and, what is more, Natal with Coloured leaders on 19th August, he is an honest man. 1967, while the commission was still sitting. Let me quote what he told this meeting— Mr. J. T. KRUGER: I suppose that is all that can be said for him. He said the Government had decided to assign to the Representative Council the Mrs. C. D. TAYLOR: In that same debate administration of the major portion of the m which the hon. the Minister of Coloured present functions of the Department of Col­ Affairs participated, the hon. the Deputy Min­ oured Affairs. The Council would at the out­ ister of Bantu Administration and Education, set.. . who can never keep his mouth shut in any circumstances, was also reported in Die Burger And I want you to listen to this, Sir— on the same day as follows— . . . the Council would at the outset admin­ Mnr. Coetzee het gesê daar kan vir ister approximately R40 million a year and die Kleurlinggemeenskap Kleurlingministers the Government was making an all-out wees en seifs ’n Kleurlingpremier. effort to train Coloureds how to run the Council. A Coloured Prime Minister in a body which is not to have sovereignty of any descrip­ How does the hon. the Minister arrive at that tion whatsoever! What a lot of nonsense! figure of R40 million a year when the figure This is the sort of stuff that we consistently mentioned in the commission’s report is R46 have from the Government. million? It seems to me to be almost too good a coincidence to be an accident. Then, Sir, there is another point which has not been Mr. T. G. HUGHES: A nominated Prime raised in this debate. You will find in the re­ Minister. port of the commission that on the 22nd August the hon. member for Peninsula took a Mrs. C. D. TAYLOR: Sir, the eviden point of order. He challenged the chairman given by Mr. Schwartz, the leader of the Cou on a matter which he considered to be of ™. tor Coloured Affairs, has been quoted paramount importance because of a speech this House quite often in this debate and I . which had been made by the hon. the Prime not intend to repeat it but let me remind he Minister in Durban a day or two before. The members of what his deputy leader said on tl hon. member for Peninsula said this— 1371 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1372

Now I should like to draw attention to a Whites were at hand. It quoted a statement by report which appeared in The Cape Argus Mr. Vorster in South West Africa in which he of Thursday, the 17th August, purporting said— to report a speech made by the Prime Min­ ister in Durban the previous night. For the In the white parliament at Cape Town purpose of the record I should like to read there will under National Party policy be the news item. It is headed “Hint that Col­ white representatives only, and the policy is oureds’ M.P.’s may go. Natal speech by based on principle. Vorster.” Now, I would have thought that that was evi­ At that time, Sir, the commission was still dence enough to prove that the Government sitting— had already decided upon its policy before this Commission was appointed or even started The Prime Minister, Mr. Vorster, in a work, and that they were merely playing for speech in Durban last night, made a state­ time. It is quite clear that in spite of the ment which appears to confirm that the weight of evidence given against them in this Government intends to do away with re­ report, they will press on with these plans. Of presentation for the Coloured people in the course, the only startling difference is that the House of Assembly. Government’s predictions, for example by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Coloured Sir, this was said when this commission was Affairs, that the Coloured people themselves still busy with its work! The chairman of the would ask for these changes, have now been commission had the temerity to tell us that discounted once and for all. For the Prime their approach was completely objective when Minister or the Government to suggest that they started, but the account in The Argus, these plans to remove the Coloured Represen­ quoting the Prime Minister, goes on to say— tatives arise from the recommendations of this Commission, l say, is so much rubbish. At present four Coloured people’s repre­ The first warning we had that this was coming sentatives sit in the House of Assembly, but came in 1965 from the then Minister of in his address to the Natal Congress of the Coloured Affairs, Mr. P. W. Botha, and as was Nationalist Party in the City Hall, Mr. his way when he held that portfolio, it was in Vorster said that in addition to meaning the nature of a threat. We became accustomed separate residential areas, social amenities to his addressing the House in that manner. It and recreation for the different racial groups, was a threat to the effect that unless everybody separate development also meant “no mixed fell into line with Nationalist Party principles, representation in Parliament”. The Nationa­ the Coloured M.P.s might have to go. I quote list Party was determined that Whites and what he said in this House— Whites only will be represented in Parlia­ ment in Cape Town. Mr. Vorster said: “The A measure of confusion exists in respect Nationalist Party says that as far as Parlia­ of the four white representatives of the Col­ ment is concerned, it will consist of White oureds in the House of Assembly, and let representatives only, while minority groups me say at once that it was never intended will get—and legislation is being passed that they should represent the Coloured making it possible—power to deal with those population as a whole. They are represen­ matters which affect them as a race.” tative of the limited number of voters who would have qualified under the old Common The chairman of the commission, when he Roll. The Government have always adopted was faced with this point of order, tried his the view that it is bound to the continuation best to handle what must have been a very of this compromise taken a number of difficult position for him, and he said— years ago.

. . . dat daar hoegenaamd geen Regerings- This is the man who to-day repudiates the besluit oor hierdie aangeleentheid geneem is very promise he made in 1965. Then he went nie en dat die besprekings vanjaar in die on to say— Volksraad en nou ook weer in Durban ge- doen is in ’n gees van afwagting van die But I must issue a warning. If this limited aanbevelings en verslag van die kommissie. representation by Whites is used to an in­ creasing extent by the Opposition and the We challenge the validity of that interpretation integrationists to attack the National Party’s of the Chairman of the Commission, because policy and to present it as being illogical, here is another indication of the extent to the time will come when this representation which this policy was fixed and clear in the will have to be reviewed. mind of the Government long before this commission reported. On 3rd September, when So it was a political manoeuvre which started they were still busy, writing under the heading a long time ago. “Parliament Purely for Whites”, Dagbreek en I am in effect to-day accusing the Govern­ Sondagnuus carried a report which said that it ment of bad faith and of fooling both the was not improbable that the final steps to Coloured community and the white electorate make Parliament representative only of the over this issue as far as this commission’s re- 1373 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1374 port is concerned. One does not have to think in the Senate. Dr. Malan later was in favour up any elaborate arguments in order to indict of extending the Coloured vote to the northern the Government and their firm determination provinces “sodat hulle dieselfde politieke regte to remove these people, which has been ap­ met die blankes sal deel”, and I am quoting parent for quite a long time. As far as the from Hansard of 21st February, 1929, col. Coloured people are concerned, it is quite 242. He was in favour of votes for Coloured clear that the message to them is: Think women, and he also pleaded that Natives and Nationalist or else . . . I would say that they Indians should be represented by their own have been convicted by their own statements, people in our Parliament. And not one single as I think I have shown this afternoon. In Nationalist in those days repudiated either other words, the findings of the commission Mr. Strydom or Dr. Malan over those state­ were neither sincere nor objective assess­ ments. Towards the end of 1960 we know that ments, as they should have been, nor are the Die Burger had a long correspondence on the findings of the Commission in any sense in subject, and many Nationalists expressed the interests of the Coloured people. As Dr. themselves in favour of representation by Verwoerd has already been quoted as having Coloureds in this House. But such expressions promised that the Coloured representatives of opinion were by no means confined to the would not be removed from this House, I do Cape, because, even after the Prime Minister not intend dealing with that issue any further, and the Federale Raad of the Nationalist and of course hon. members are only too Party had issued an ultimatum that this was familiar with what has been quoted here not to be the policy of the Nationalist already, namely the letter to the Australian Government, Willem van Heerden said in an Prime Minister saying that representation of article on 4th December in the paper of Coloureds in this House by their own people which he was then editor— was one of the possible alternatives for the future. In other words, he was looking in Ek kan nie die stelling van die Eerste exactly the opposite direction from that of Minister onderskryf dat politieke volwaar- our present Prime Minister. Among all the digheid vir die Kleurlingbevolking soos uit- promises that have been given by that side of gedruk in verteenwoordiging deur hulle eie the House about the Coloured Representa­ mense in die Parlement, ’n eerste stap na tives never being removed, I have a particul­ integrasie sou wees nie. arly personal and poignant memory about this matter, because in 1959, shortly after Dr. Ver- And after the ultimatum by the Federale woerd’s New Vision for the Bantu people and Raad, Mr. Van Heerden went on to say— the abolition of the Natives’ representatives from this House, a provincial election was Om redes wat ek al genoem het, glo ek. held. The Government asked for a mandate dat daar in die een of ander stadium wel in that election, retrospectively of course, to oorgegaan sal moet word tot verteenwoor­ endorse the Prime Minister’s new _ vision for diging van Kleurlinge deur hul eie mense. the Bantu people, the creation of eight Bantu- I hope the hon. member for Odendaalsrus stans. During that election, on one occasion will note this. And, finally, General Hertzog I travelled 700 miles for the purpose of ques­ at Smithfield, on November 13th, 1925, said— tioning the hon. the Minister of Bantu Ad­ ministration at a meeting at Maclear, and I In his case (the Coloured’s) there can asked him questions, and I have a cutting thus be no question of segregation, econo­ here— mically, industrially and politically. The Coloured man must be incorporated with Mrs. Taylor asked the Minister whether us. in view of his constant statements that Par­ liament would be a purely white Parlia­ I want to deal very briefly with the question ment, the Government intended abolishing of how this whole matter of the Coloured the Coloured people’s representatives, and franchise arose and why it has become so the Minister replied that they regarded the difficult. I agree with the hon. member for Coloured people as part of Western Houghton, who said that the basic motive civilization; they have no separate areas they in 1948 was pure, unadulterated selfishness on can go to, so they will always be represented the part of the Nationalist Party and their in Parliament. lust for power. They had a majority of four votes in the House in the 1948 election. They HON. MEMBERS; No. wanted to entrench their position, and they started this ang battle just to get the Coloured Mrs. C. D. TAYLOR: Yes, Sir. That was voters off the Common Roll, because the Mr. De Wet Nel, so do not let hon. members Coloureds held the balance of votes in any­ opposite talk about our having had an “omme- thing from 12 to 16 seats in the Cape. swaai”, because we have all the evidence that we need to show the opposite. Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: Dr. ’Malan said it at Let us go a little further back. In 1929 Paarl. the late Mr. Strydom as a member of a Select Committee supported a proposal for Mrs. C. D. TAYLOR: Yes. All the mealy- direct representation of Natives by Natives mouthed talk which we have had over the

26-A.H. Vol. 1 1375 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1376

years, of which we have become absolutely tained. As for us on this side, at our national sick, about the Coloured people becoming a congress in Bloemfontein, the change was one political football and that for that reason not of principle but of mechanics, and the something must be done, is just so much hum­ mechanics were forced upon us by the intro­ bug. The Coloured people never showed any duction of this principle of one man, one signs of wanting to become a political football vote introduced into South Africa by the until the Nationalist Party threw them into Nationalist Party in power. the arena . . . [Interjections.] Sir, why did we fight that battle? We fought that constitu­ In conclusion I wish to say that the main tional battle and we are fighting this one on a reason why the policy of the Government matter of principle, a principle from which will fail, is because of its vagueness. Because we have never deviated, namely that they plans for a Coloured council, whatever its should have representation in this House. limited powers, hold out no hope whatever for General Smuts stated that principle very clear­ any further political development for these ly—I have not time to quote it fully—in his people; this is the important point. There can Oxford Lectures way back in 1929, when he be no hope of them moving on from there said that all people, of whatever colour, because politically it is a dead end. should have representation in this House. I just want to make one point before I sit Mr. J. E. POTGIETER: It is a proximate down. Why did we change to a separate roll? end, not an ultimate end. Let me say that_ once this Government had introduced the principle of universal franchise, Mrs. C. D. TAYLOR: It can only end by i.e. one man, one vote, into our political life being a source of frustration. The council for our non-white people, it was clear to any­ will be hamstrung inevitably because of the body with any capacity for thought at all limitations placed upon it by virtue of the that the whole constitutional structure in finances voted for it. I say this is another South Africa would have to be re-assessed abuse of the rights of the Coloured people and revised. In terms of the Transkei Consti­ who are taxpayers of this country on a very tution Act, every Xhosa. man or woman, of considerable scale. We ought to be concerned the age of 21, if they had paid their taxes, at this period of our history with means of is allowed to vote, and this is going to be contact and not of separation, and with how extended to eight Bantustans. This is a poli­ to share our rights and responsibilities rather tical actuality. For purposes of the Coloured than how to isolate everybody. All the cultural People’s Representative Council Act of 1964. and economic assistance that has been given the same principle was applied. Men and to the Coloured people by this Government women of 21 could vote with no further has been largely neutralized by turning them qualifications, and the same will apply to the into inferior citizens in this way, because they Indian Council. It should be quite clear that are now becoming a permanent underprivi­ the Government having established this as a leged minority. political principle, any subsequent administra­ There are real dangers attached to the steps tion in South Africa taking over from the the Government propose taking. Once the present Government before sovereign inde­ powers-that-be legislate to eliminate all direct pendence is granted, if it is ever granted, to contact, and I mean direct contact by repre­ these eight Bantustans, would be faced with sentation in this House at the highest level an the hard fact that all our non-white people, element of compulsion and interference of a even in matters of limited jurisdiction, would most unpleasant kind is introduced, such as have experienced what it is to vote on the the questioning of members of the Labour basis of a universal franchise. Any new ad­ Party amongst the Coloured people by mem­ ministration taking over would be very rash bers of our security branch. These are police indeed to tamper with that right and suddenly state methods, there is no doubt about it turn to these people and say that now they and they introduce a retrograde and very un- had to have an educational or some other pleasant element into our politics and our qualification. That is why our friends in the affairs. Progressive Party to-day, with their blueprint The basis of Nationalist thinking in these for qualifications, are way out on the end of matters appals us in the United Party. I want a limb, because the Nationalist Party has to say it is crudely the basis of that side’s entered the arena and has established the prin­ thinking that if one encounters political op­ ciple in South Africa of universal franchise position which one dislikes or fears one as the basis of voting for our non-white simply legislates that section of the com­ people. [Interjections.] You will not be in munity out of real political existence. This is power for ever. It became quite clear to us totalitarianism, and nothing less. and I was a member of the United Party’s Connan commission, as hon. members know, I am proud to be a member of a party, a that on the basis of one man, one vote, group of South Africans, who will have which hon. members on the other side have nothing whatsoever to do with this change established, representation in this House, in which is being introduced by the Government. terms of the balance of power, would have Let it go down in history that our party at to be based on group representation. On that least would have nothing to do with the re- moval of the Coloured members from this basis only can a balance of power be main­ House, and my prediction is that this Govern­ 1377 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1378 ment will live to regret its decision very much gards various points of view which provided indeed. possible solutions. It was not Dr. Verwoerd’s point of view at all. •Mr. V. A. VOLKER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. The hon. member also quoted what the late member for Wynberg intimated in her speech Adv. Strijdom allegedly said in 1929 on the that the members of her party were indeed possible representation of Bantu by Bantu in political opportunists. She gave the reason for the Senate. One must, however, also bear in their having recently changed their policy in mind that those discussions always took place respect of the Coloureds, and she said that the in circumstances that were practical at that reason for their present decision to grant the time. The National Party principle has always Coloureds representation on a separate Voters’ been that we would under no circumstances Roll instead of on the Common Voters’ Roll jeopardize the future of the Whites in South was that the National Party was extending the Africa by granting common political represen­ political participation of the non-Whites onto a tation to the various races. Because the Senate broader plane. She spoke of a “universal fran­ in itself is a body without any authority, a chise”. In other words, as long as the political place where debates are held but where no participation of the non-Whites is limited to a legislation can be stopped, this possibility was small single group, a group such as 33,000 out suggested as one idea in 1929, when conditions of the 700,000 Coloureds, then they are pre­ in South Africa were totally different. But it pared to give the Coloureds representation on has never been the policy of the National a Common Voters’ Roll, but as soon as the Party to have a common political development political participation is extended to an effective of the various population groups of South participation, then the United Party are no Africa so that the various political tendencies longer in favour of it and then they want to may be integrated. limit them in another way. If that is not politi­ I also want to refer to a few ideas expressed cal opportunism, then what is it? by the hon. member for Houghton. Her speech Another matter which the hon. member here to-day in fact represents the political touched upon, is this. She said that as soon as opinion of the United Party of yesterday, it is the National Party encountered political oppo­ the opinion of the Progressive Party of to-day, sition which they did not like or which they and most probably again the opinion of the feared, they simply introduced legislation to United Party of to-morrow. After all, it get rid of the opposition. That is not true. Let is the position -that only since the United me inform the hon. member what the basic Party has become the Opposition, an ever- principles of the matter under discussion are declining opposition in view of the disposi­ about. This matter concerns the political parti­ tion of the electorate, who are moving more cipation of various groups in the present politi­ to the right, has this party—indeed an oppor­ cal society of the whole of South Africa. tunist party—considered it necessary to move more to the right too in an attempt to catch •Mr. D. M. STREICHER: In other words, the votes of dissatisfied persons who may pos­ according to you the Coloureds are the same sibly break away from the National Party. as the Bantu? •Mr. V. A. VOLKER: Obviously they are •Mr. W. V. RAW: May I ask the hon. not the same as the Bantu. We recognize the member a question? I want to ask the hon. difference, and it is precisely because we recog­ member which National Party congress in nize the difference that we act accordingly. Natal approved of the abolition of Coloured The hon. member for Wynberg also referred representation? to a letter which the late Dr. Verwoerd wrote to Sir Robert Menzies and in which he ♦Mr. V. A. VOLKER: The National Party allegedly suggested that an alternative policy congress in Natal, like the congresses of the would be to have Coloureds represented in this party in other provinces, only determines the Parliament by Coloureds. He never indicated broad policy of the party and not necessarily in that letter in any way that this was his point every detail of such policy. The abolition of of view. He merely discussed and explained his Coloured representatives is in this respect a policy and otheT policies in that letter. It detail of the policy. I shall come to that later. was not his point of view at all that the It is by no means a change of policy. The solution would be to have Coloureds hon. member is apparently not aware of the represented in this Parliament by Coloureds. difference between the method in which policy When speaking to an ill-informed person, is applied, and policy or principles as such. I when speaking to someone abroad, I cannot blame any United Party member if he try to speak to him in terms which will cannot distinguish between the two, because he make it possible for him to understand the naturally does not know what method or prin­ circumstances. I try to put various points ciples or policy is. of view so that he may get an idea of As I have said, the speech to-day by the the conditions that we have in this country. I hon. member for Houghton was merely the am convinced that Dr. Verwoerd only directed United Party policy or standpoint of yester­ the letter to a foreigner in the knowledge that year. She did mention a few points which were he knew nothing of conditions in this country. indeed correct, and which are in fact the reason He only sketched the general position as re­ why this side of the House is doing what it is 1379 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1380

doing. She claimed that, if the Coloureds were *Mr. D. M. STREICHER: Where is the asked to choose, they would “opt against apart­ tension you are speaking of? heid”. That is perhaps possible. The Coloureds may perhaps be opposed to apartheid. That is a *Mr. V. A. VOLKER: The tension has been possibility. But now I want to put the follow­ eliminated by the policy of the National Party. ing question. If it is accepted that the Colour­ The tension would not have been eliminated eds as a group are opposed to apartheid, while if it had not been for the consistent applica­ the overwhelming majority of the Whites are tion of the policy of the National Party. I can in favour of apartheid, what must the solution refer her to any country in the world where then be? How must the problem then be there are different groups with different stand­ solved? If we have one group opposed to points or policies, or which differ from one apartheid, a group which has no say in the another in any way. I refer to India and political society of South Africa, a minority Pakistan, to Kenya, to the island of Cyprus. group in the country as a whole but the major­ I refer to the Catholics of Southern Ireland ity group in a province, while the group which and the Protestants of Northern Ireland. I re­ has the political authority in their hands are fer to the French and Flemish-speaking in favour of apartheid, what must the solution people of Belgium. Wherever there are people then be? Would it be a solution to apply the of different standpoints, tension is caused and policy of the United Party, to offer a federal clashes occur. The only way in which to re­ system? Does the Progressive Party offer a duce tension is separate development. I am solution in simply advocating an amalgamation convinced that this view is not appreciated in because the Coloureds are opposed to apart­ South Africa alone; in fact, it is being appre­ heid and the Whites are in favour of it? Is it ciated and understood more and more in the not clear that tension would then develop? If outside world to-day. Is it not strange that one group goes in one direction, and another even in the United States the black leaders are group in another direction, will tension not be already insisting that five of the States of the an unavoidable consequence? Surely the whole U.S.A. be given to them and that they will then purpose of a government is to reduce ten­ have racial peace? Is it not interesting that this sion between the various groups in this coun­ line of thought is also gaining acceptance try. And the only way to accomplish this, is there? to eliminate friction. If one group is in favour of the abolition of apartheid, while we as I am in fact grateful that the United Party Whites are in favour of apartheid, surely they is asking where our policy is heading. I shall cannot force its abolition upon us? We can furnish the reply at once. Our policy is head­ then say that we as Whites prefer apartheid, ing in the direction of the recognition of di­ and if the Coloureds want no apartheid, they versity, and not in the direction of a merging can abolish it in their own community and say (not on the highest level and not on the poli­ that they want no apartheid. But, Mr. Speaker, tical level either) of the various national iden­ I know for certain that the Coloureds as a tities in this country. Our future direction will group are just as much in favour of apartheid rather be towards the recognition of diversity, where their group is concerned. They are not and if it should mean that in the future we in favour of integration of the Coloureds and must think of homelands for the Coloureds the Bantu, or integration of the Indians and and the Indians, then we shall work in that the Coloureds. If they are only in favour of direction. At the moment it is not practicable integration of the Whites and the Coloureds, yet, but I do not want to exclude the possi­ and we as Whites are not in favour of it, then bility that we may work in this direction in a solution has to be found. The only logical future. solution is the solution of the National Party, namely separate development. In terms of that *Mr. D. M. STREICHER: Mr. Speaker, each group can fulfil its own needs, its own may I ask the hon. member whether it is a development, the development of its own consideration on his part to give the Coloureds essence and future. It is for this reason that a homeland here in the Western Province or the National Party is in favour of the policy of elsewhere in the Cape Province, and if so, separate development, because clashes will in­ where will it be situated? evitably occur between the various group in­ terests as long as there are such minority or *Mr. V. A. VOLKER: Mr. Speaker, I can majority groups in any country. easily answer that. It is not yet a practicable policy which has been seriously considered in Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Hough­ the party, but I can in fact say that there are ton also said that it was her inalienable right various persons on this side of the House who to be opposed to apartheid. I grant her that. are thinking seriously in this direction. It is her inalienable right to be opposed to apartheid, to attack it, to say whatever she Mr. R. G. L. HOURQUEBIE: Mr. Speaker, likes. But the right which I do not grant her, may I ask the hon. member a question? is to incite minority groups, or even other groups, in order to create tension between *Mr. V. A. VOLKER: Yes, but this is the Whites and other groups. If she is opposed to last question I am going to answer. apartheid, let her be opposed to it within the Mr. R. G. L. HOURQUEBIE: The question group of which she is a part. that I should like to put to the hon. member, 1382 1381 ASSEMBLY DEBATES is this: If the Coloureds and the Indians are has already been mentioned twice by the hon. not to be given their own homelands, what is the Leader of the Opposition. He has already the moral justification for his policy? quoted twice from Hansard what Dr. Ver- woerd allegedly said about the granting of *Mr. V. A. VOLKER: It is precisely be­ political rights to the Bantu in the Transkei. cause we see it as the outcome of the moral He wanted to make out that Dr. Verwoerd justification of our policy that we are thinking said that it was done as a result of pressure. in this direction. But now I want to put the counter-question: What is the moral justifica­ *HON. MEMBERS: He did say that, not tion of the United Party’s policy? The United so? Party is speaking of South Africa as a country •Mr. V. A. VOLKER: I accept that he did with a unitary political future. The United say it. But now I should like to sketch the Party sees South Africa, with its diversity of difference between the reaction of this side of nations within our present political bounda­ the House and that of that side of the House ries, as one political nation of the future. when pressure is exerted. If pressure is exerted, They now speak of a race federation. A race then it is clear that action must be taken as a federation inevitably means that the highest result of that pressure. Dr. Verwoerd did act, political body, which exercises the highest but what direction did his action take? The authority over the entire people, must be a direction which he took was one of political representative federal parliament. If it is a re­ realism and one moving along the separate presentative parliamentary body, then it means directions in which the various races are going that there must be representation, not by to develop separately. In other words, Dr. Ver­ means of surreptitious political deceit, but in woerd did in fact take into account the pres­ a responsible manner which will do justice to sure, which is not being exerted specifically on the representation of each group: to the South Africa, but the pressure of the political Coloureds, the Indians, to the eight main Bantu development throughout the world. He took groups and to the one white group. But their into account that political pressure which de­ policy now is that they will initially have 166 veloped and he acted realistically. But when representatives in Parliament for the Whites, that pressure developed, the United Party, and they will now go so far as to have six through the mouth of the Leader of the Oppo­ Coloureds, or Whites as representatives of the sition, showed that they were political oppor­ Coloureds, elected. There will be so many for tunists and that as soon as pressure is exerted, the Indians and so many for the Bantu in this they move in the other direction to yield to Parliament. They say that they will provide a the pressure. They want to move in the direc­ constitutional safeguard by laying down in the tion of joint representation. I do not mind ad­ Constitution that there shall be no increase in mitting that when pressure is exerted, it is political rights unless it is decided upon by necessary to act in order not to have yourself means of a referendum in which only the destroyed by the pressure. But the way in Whites will vote. If there are 166 representa­ which action is taken is a matter of principle. tives in this Parliament for 3 | million Whites, The National Party acts in accordance with its and for nearly two million Coloureds in this principles, but the United Party, as a result of country only six representatives, even if they its political opportunism, yields to the pressure are their own people, where is the moral justi­ and moves in the other direction. This is the fication for it? If only two representatives are fundamental difference between the United to be granted to the half a million Indians in Party approach and the National Party ap­ Natal, where is the moral justification for it? proach. If in course of time a demand is made, if pressure is exerted, for greater representation, I find it interesting to read in this report and only the Whites must decide upon it, what what the standpoint is of a person who gave will be the end result of that decision of the evidence and who is a member of the Liberal Whites? Will it not be that, if they refuse it, Party. I read here of the evidence given by tension will develop between the Whites and Mr. Pat Poovalingam, an Indian from Durban. the non-Whites? If they refuse it and the non- He is a member of the Liberal Party, but not Whites insist on having a greater say in the just an ordinary member. He is also a mem­ central Parliament, the highest body, and if ber of the Executive Committee of the Con­ the United Party members should then vote vocation of the University of Natal, and he with us against something like that, what occupies other important positions as well. His moral justification do they have for wanting standpoint was that he actually preferred, as a to move in the direction of one common poli­ result of the make-up of his political ideas, tical state? In their policy there is not the that we should all move into the future as one slightest semblance of moral justification; there group. That will in fact be the end result of is only political bungling, political eyewash. the United Party’s policy. But he also says— If they are now apparently moving more to the right, it is only because they are in oppo­ I find the principle of separate develop­ sition and because they are bent on trying to ment very attractive as it was propounded catch more votes. When they were in power by Dr. Verwoerd. However, it is the prac­ and in a position to give effect to their policy, tical application of that principle which I they moved more and more to the left. I find suspect. I feel that Dr. Verwoerd had should like to mention another matter which the right vision, but whether that vision is 1383 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1384

being carried into effect with equal justice culturally already at a much higher level of for all, remains the question. uniformity than we in South Africa can ever Here is a member of the Liberal Party who achieve. [Time expired.] can quite see the point of the policy of separate development. He agrees that if that Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, we policy can be applied in practice, he is pre­ have known the hon. member for Umhlatu- pared to go along with it. But because the zana as a philosopher of the Verwoerdian- person who gave evidence here reads no purist school, but I am sure that if the late Dr. National Party newspapers and because he Verwoerd had been here to-day, he would only reads the newspapers supporting the have been amazed at how far the hon. mem­ standpoint of the opponents of apartheid, and ber wants to go. What are we talking about in because suspicion is continually being sown this debate? Are we not talking about the against the application of National Party realities of South Africa and the political policy, he doubts whether the policy, which problem as to how we can give the non-white he agrees is in fact the ideal solution, will be people a share in government and how, in applied in practice in this way. Let me say the second place, we can consult with them here that it is the earnest and sincere inten- best, and yet, at the same time, keep control ftorr of the National Party to give genuine of the whole situation? Is this not really what effect to that policy in order to allow each this debate is all about? Here we have an hon. population group in South Africa to develop member who comes along and talks about a to the full, according to its own initiative and line of principle. He talks about a direction. according to its own needs and according to All I want to know is in which direction is it, its own resources. forwards or backwards? What is the direction of this grand philosophy that he envisages? *Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: Tell us how it is What is contained in the majority report? It is going to be done in the case of the Coloureds. direction backwards, not forward. The hon. member talks about a “nasie”. *Mr. V. A. VOLKER: I cannot help it if hon. members have just entered the House in An HON. MEMBER: A “nasie”, not a the last few minutes because they heard that Nazi. interesting statements were being made. I have already answered that point. The fact of Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: That is not what the matter is that the National Party is con­ he talked about. What he talked about was a sistently giving effect to the basic principles nasie’. A “nasie” is, as I understand it, a of conservatism, namely the acceptance of the nation. Am I right? Does the hon. member fact that there are differences between various agree with me? What is a nation? South groups of people in South Africa and that Africa is a nation. [Interjections.] You see, justice must be done as regards the develop­ Sir, we are now talking in terms no one under­ ment of the rights of each group. Each group stands. has the right to have a political say in the One finds that Dawie, the greatest pro­ matter of its own future. It is also our policy tagonist of the new scheme of things, the to move away from liberalism, the direction in greatest excuser as to the change from the old which the United Party is the first step, the order, tried to nail us to this in the March Progressive Party the second and the Liberal issue of The New Nation on this matter. The Party the third. It is our policy to move away hon. Leader of the Opposition dealt with this from the direction in which the differences matter when he spoke in this debate. We are must be reduced and eventually obliterated. talking, about words. Let us say the word is The National Party gives recognition to the nasie . What is a “nasie”? Is it not an entity differences which exist between the various which has completeness, freedom and language groups in South Africa. The Whites sovereignty? Is not that a “nasie”? If that is a are one nation, although we are English and ‘nasie”, how do you give these three things to Afrikaans speaking. It is the standpoint of the the Coloured people? Where do you give it to National Party that each language group must them? How do you give it to them? The hon. be fully aware of the group to which it be- member will concede, as a member of the lon8s- There must be no attempt to reduce and obliterate the differences, but we are one purist school, that they should, in order to single nation. We cannot form one nation with bring this to fruition, have their own home- the Coloureds, the Indians, the Zulu, the land. Does the hon. member agree with that? Xhosa, the Sotho, the Tswana and all the other groups. It is for that reason that we Mr. V. A. VOLKER: Yes. are moving, as Europe did, in the direction of recognizing the diversity that exists, just as it Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: The hon. member is possible to have economic co-operation says ‘yes I agree with him that if this con­ within the Common Market of Europe, where cept can be put into operation, a Coloured there is even a free movement of the workers homeland is necessary, a necessary ingredient u th?lr becomlng. a “nasie”. Now, where is ot the various nations for the sake of econo- that homeland going to be? How are you mic co-operation, but there is no intention of going to get them there? What is their flag eliminating the political boundaries between going to be? Are they going to have a national the various countries of Europe, which are anthem, etc.? It was all well and good to talk 1385 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1386

about a Bantustan, or the Transkei. But I feel the turning of the wheels of administration of that one cannot talk about it in this regard. the day to day lives of people that are neces­ The hon. member is at least honest in his sary in modern government and in a modem approach to this matter, but the theory of it is social state. It is the civil service with its impossible of fulfilment. The hon. member executives, executive decisions and the courts. went even further. He went so far as to say That is participation in government. That is that the announcement made by the hon. the why we the other day supported a Bill which Prime Minister yesterday was not a change of dealt with the Indian Council. Inadequate policy, but a development of that policy. The though it was, it was an interim step in the first step in that development was to take the creation of a communal council. There is no Coloureds off the Common Roll in 1951, and other word for it. It is a council to deal with the second step now is to remove their repre­ Indians, with the affairs of the Indian com­ sentation altogether. The 1951 step, of taking munity, wherever they may be. That is what them off the Common Roll and putting them these councils are for. On that aspect as I on a separate roll, was part of the scheme, was understand the position, the commission are at it not? one. Everyone wants this council to be set up and they want its powers to be developed, in­ Mr. V. A. VOLKER: Yes. creased and improved. That is in fact the only way you can allow non-white people to par­ Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: He says it was. The ticipate in government, unless you are pre­ hon. member for Umhlatuzana is not alone in pared to break down all the barriers and make this. The hon. member for Parow, who is not your civil service a multi-racial, competitive here now, knows about this matter. He also organization. That is an impossible situation in said that it was part of the plan to scrap South Africa. Now, how do they participate Coloured representation in Parliament alto­ in government? And that is why this aspect of gether. If this is so it is the most terrible, it should be supported, namely the creation of frightful fraud that has been perpetrated on a council to deal for example with matters the voters of South Africa. If the 1951 re­ that concern only the Indians. The hon. mem­ moval of the Coloureds from the Common ber who has just sat down must know this, Roll to a separate roll was part of the scheme namely that the Indian community is a differ­ of things, and there has been no change in ent community. They are part of our country policy so that this is the logical concluion of and part of our province. But they are a differ­ their scheme, then it is quite disgraceful that ent community and they have all sorts of anyone could have taken them off the roll on different practices and customs. They have the basis upon which that was done. different divorce laws and so on. And these are the matters they should deal with, matters Mr. V. A. VOLKER: It was a positive im­ that concern them only. When we have done provement. that we have given them the power, the faci­ lity and the machinery to take part in govern­ Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Improvement for ment. And if I may coin a phrase of the hon. whom? This is the question. Improvement for member for Yeoville, that is the genius of race the Nationalist Party? Improvement for a federation. That is the kernel of the thought party that has now got itself in a cleft stick? And that is what this Government has realized A party that cannot explain how it is going to and is precisely what they are now taking over. deal with the various race groups? The hon. We are glad, but remember where this came member has given an answer. But I wonder from in 1961. whether the hon. the Minister for Coloured But, that is not the issue upon which we are Affairs who is sitting here is prepared to sub­ joined here. We join issue on this report with scribe to the answer that he gave, namely that the decision to remove the Members of Par­ in order to bring this to fruition there will be liament who represent the Coloured people. It a Colouredstan, a homeland where they will is clear that that is the decision the Govern­ be. Let us be realistic about this. Let us ment is taking. They are going to accept the examine what we are talking about. What we majority view. But, having set up all these are talking about is the issue whether in keep­ councils about which much has been said— ing control of the situation, keeping control the Coloured Council has as yet not even been of South Africa and its developments, we can set up—why must the members representing allow the non-White groups to take part in the Coloured people go? What is the function government firstly, and whether we could also of a Member of Parliament representing the ) consult with them properly. This is what we Coloured people? This is the sovereign Par­ are dealing with. And this is exactly where liament which determines their destiny. It is this Government finds it impossible with its here in this Parliament that the future of all present approach to fulfil those two things. the race groups will be decided, as well as And I shall indicate that we on this side of the matters ot defence and so on, which are not House have the only formula whereby these going to be entrusted to any of these councils. two things can in fact be achieved. If that is so, we should surely consult them What is participation in government? It when we make decisions concerning them. Is does not mean sitting in this House. We do not there anyone in this House who will say that participate in government. Participation in we should not consult them? But how do you government is the oiling of the wheels and consult them? I wonder whether hon. mem- 1387 2 9 t h FEBRUARY, 1968 1388

bers have ever asked themselves the question Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Of course . . as to what they are doing sitting in this House. [Interjections.] The hon. member asked me Apart from the members of the Executive, whether that is so for every race group in members of the Cabinet and Deputy Minis­ South Africa. I say of course, this argument ters, what is the function of the other mem­ cannot apply only to one race group if we bers here? It is to represent a point of view, to make the laws here concerning all the race represent a group of people. The only reason groups and want to consult with them or pre­ why we have a House of Assembly is that it tend that we want to consult with them. If one would be inconvenient for everyone to come says one does not want to consult with them to one big place. So everyone here represents about the laws we make, then, of course, my a point of view. And we sitting in this House point has no validity. But I doubt whether are part of the consultative process ourselves. there is any responsible member in this House This is the place where consultation takes who says that he does not want to consult place, here in a debate. This is consultation. with them. The elected members come here and form themselves into groups for convenience and Mr. W. A. CRUYWAGEN: If you consult they then debate the issues which concern the Coloureds for the Coloured group you must people they represent. That is consultation. also consult Blacks for the black group, [In- terjections.] Mrs. H. SUZMAN: They do not take much notice, however, do they? Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Does the hon. member want to consult with them? This is the point. Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: They may not take much notice but the majority view is formed Mr. W. A. CRUYWAGEN: What is your after hearing debate. Any suggestions that we policy? want to make, any amendments we wish to move to the legislation, we move. And the Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: No, is the hon. House considers them and votes on them. member prepared to answer that question Whom do you consult with best? Do you con­ whether he is prepared to consult with them. sult best on a matter through a Government Does he want to consult with them? Department, or do we in this House consult? That is the decision. The Government can Mr. W. A. CRUYWAGEN: You were told make any executive decisions it likes. But it by the hon. the Prime Minister how we are has to come back to this House. In this House prepared to consult with them. [Interjections.] we make laws—the Executive does not make laws. We make the laws here and I am sure Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: I thought the hon. that we would like to know, whether we make member had some idea as to what his rights laws concerning the Indian people, the are as a member of Parliament, never mind Coloured people or the Bantu people, what about whether he is a supporter of the they think about those laws. We would like to Government. be able to debate it with them. And it is no answer to me as a Member of Parliament with Mr. W. A. CRUYWAGEN: [Inaudible.] my own rights here and with an opinion which should be well informed, to be told that the Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Let me say this to Government, the Executive, is going to con­ the hon. member too. The only people who sult with them and that they will tell me what can tell us what that race group thinks are the their decision was. That is not the issue. The people who were elected by that race group in issue concerns that which we have here. What the same way as we operate. Because they will do we have in Parliament? How does Parlia­ express in this House the views of the people ment, the sovereign legislature consult? And that they represent. And, if they do not ex­ how does it consult except by having a spokes­ press other views and do not properly repre­ man here in the House with whom you can sent their views, they will be thrown out at the debate the matter and whose views can be next election. This is the process, the normal debated and decided by this House? Not by process of representation in any body that the Government. This is a fundamental prin- there is. That is the whole thing. What the ciple. It is not done by the Government but Government has decided to do is to reject for by this House. And if one of their represen­ all time in our Parliament, government by tatives for example wants to move an amend­ debate in the matters that concern all the race ment to a Bill, then he will move it. And it is groups. That is what is happening. It means for the House to decide whether or not that that we will never be able to properly debate amendment is acceptable and whether the law an issue in this House. We will not have should be amended in that regard or not. It is government by debate. It almost boils down for the House, for us, and not for the Govern­ to the position that the opportunity to test the ment. But there has crept in here a very un­ opinion of this House is denied to those re­ fortunate attitude of mind. presentatives. The idea is that that should be done through a Government department and whether that is so for every race group in Mr. W. A. CRUYWAGEN: Is that the case that there should be some sort of liaison for every race group in South Africa? also with this Home. But, that is not 1389 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1390 enough. That is liaison only in those there have always been representatives of non- matters entrusted to that council. It does Whites in this House. In 1936 when the Native not have a function in a matter such as voters were removed from the Common Roll defence or railways or anything of that sort. and placed on a separate Roll, there were three It does not have a function there. It is in fact representatives for them in this House and quite impotent to do it that way. I appreciate they sat here from 1936 until 1959 and their that there are other views on the subject. The number was never increased by one. Why? hon. member for Houghton says that the ob­ Not because they did not want greater repre­ ject of the vote is to have an influence in the sentation. Obviously and quite simply because power structure. Sir, that may be so in a this Parliament was not prepared to pass a homogeneous society, but 1 doubt very much Bill giving them greater representation. It is as whether one could justify it—one cannot jus­ easy as that. Throughout the days of United tify it—in a multi-racial society. This point Party Government and thereafter the Nation­ was also taken up by Dawie, the main spokes­ alist Party Government, the number remained man of this new turn-around-the-corner, at three. Was there any talk of a growth point which is now declared to be a follow-through from that? They were here for 23 years, but in the same direction. did anyone say that they feared that the pre­ sence of the Native representatives here would Mr. S. J. M. STEYN: But he has to be an be a growth point for greater representation? apologist. Of course not. I think we must differentiate between the functions and in considering this Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: Yes, he has to be report we must consider why it is that we want an apologist for himself as well as for the the Coloured Council; why it is that we sup­ conscience of the people he represents. Let me port the expansion of the Coloured Council. It quote what he went on to say. is that the Coloureds may participate fully in government in matters which concern them. An HON. MEMBER: What are you quoting And it is, in the second place, that we want from? representation by them to continue in this Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: I am quoting from House. Speaking for myself, I am very much New Nation of March, 1968, not a propa­ wiser and very much more able to decide what ganda journal. This was written by Dawie— should be done and what decision I should make as a member of this House by reason of The findings of the commission have not the fact that there are persons who represent yet been made known but the two basic the Coloured people, who represent their lines of thought behind its deliberations ap­ views, who speak on their behalf and who tell pear: Must the Coloured group representa­ me, here, when a decision has to be made, tion in Parliament be regarded as a growth what those people think. point for the future or as a remnant of an extinct order? An HON. MEMBER: Where are they? Sir. it is very nice if you can phrase it this Mr. M. L. MITCHELL: They may not be way. I may say that he started off by sayin" in this House at the moment but the fact re­ that at its congress at Bloemfontein the United mains that these representatives were elected Party had decided to have one country, one Sv the Coloured people and they will repre­ nation, one loyalty, an argument which my sent their views until such time as another hon. Leader has dealt with. Sir. this is the next election is held and other views are put for­ argument with which he justifies this extra­ ward. Sir, to support anything but the mino­ ordinary turn-around-the-corner— rity report would be a most retrograde step and would be a breach of the honour of every Should it be regarded as a growth point, single man and woman in this House. then it cannot remain indefinitely at four M.P.s and they cannot indefinitely remain "Mr. P. S. MARAIS: For more than three white. The Coloureds are in numbers_ about centuries the white people and the brown half as many as the Whites and their pro­ people in this country have been walking the same road. When we speak of the brown portion is increasing. people and their future in our political set-up, Sir, this is the growth point approach. Surely and if we look back over the years that have there is a difference in function, as I have tried passed, many reproaches can probably be to indicate, between participation in govern­ made when the two white political parties dis­ ment and consultation. This is not a growth cuss matters with each other. But because I point: nothing grows from here. You cannot, believe that with the proposed legislation we by giving to the Coloured people or the are on the eve of a completely new dispensa­ Indian people or anv of the non-white people, tion in regard to the brown people in this representatives in Parliament, create some­ country, I want to adopt a positive attitude in thing whereby they can take part in govern­ looking at this debate. But before doing that, I ment, any more than the presence of members wish to move at this stage— of the Opposition here is a growth point for something else, except more members in the That the debate be now adjourned. House, and that is not the purpose of having Agreed to. them. Let us remind all the leremiahs who have spoken in this House that in our history The House adjourned at 6.22 p.m. 1391 1s t MARCH, 1968 1392

FRIDAY, 1ST MARCH, 1968 Occupation of Premises for On-Consumption of Liquor *3. Mr. W. V. RAW asked the Minister of Prayers—10.05 a.m. Justice: PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS’ BILL (1) Whether (a) South African citizens of (i) Japanese, _ (ii) Chinese and (iii) other The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Asiatic origin and (b) foreign nationals Mr. Speaker, I move, as an unopposed of (i) Japanese, (ii) Chinese and (iii) motion— other Asiatic nationality are permitted to occupy premises licensed for the on- That the Order for the Second Reading consumption of liquor by white per­ of the Professional Engineers’ Bill [A.B. sons; if not, 37—’68] be discharged and that the subject of (the Bill be referred to a select committee (2) whether any instructions have been for enquiry and report, the committee to issued to or agreements entered into have power to take evidence and call for with licensees to permit exceptions from papers and to have leave to bring up an this rule. amended Bill. Agreed to. The MINISTER OF JUSTICE: (1) The occupation of premises by the QUESTIONS different racial groups is not controlled by the Department of Justice. For oral reply: (2) Falls away. Family Planning Centres Position of S.A. Citizens of Asiatic Origin in *1. Mrs. H. SUZMAN asked the Minister White Areas of Health: *4. Mr. W. V. RAW asked the Minister of Whether any Government sponsored or Community Development: Government aided family planning centres have been established; if so, (a) for which (1) Whether (a) South African citizens of race-groups and (b) where are they situated. (i) Japanese, (ii) Chinese and (iii) other Asiatic origin and (b) foreign nationals The MINISTER OF HEALTH: of (i) Japanese, (ii) Chinese and (iii) other Asiatic nationality are permitted Yes; the family planning clinics were to reside in white hotels or in white established by the National Council for residential areas; Maternal and Family Welfare, to whom the State Department of Health pays an annual (2) whether persons in any of these cate­ grant-in-aid. gories are permitted to own residential property in white areas; if so, in which (a) The service is available to all race- categories; groups. (3) whether companies of which all or any (b) It is rendered in all four provinces. of the shareholders or directors are per­ Owing to the wide scope thereof, it is sons in any of these categories are per­ not possible to indicate where the mitted to (a) own and (b) occupy pro­ centres are situated. perty in any area proclaimed for white ownership or occupation. Separate Taxation of Husbands and Wives The MINISTER OF COMMUNITY DE­ *2. Mrs. H. SUZMAN asked the Minister VELOPMENT: of Finance: (1) To the best of my knowledge there are Whether his Department has made any no South Afrcan citizens of Japanese estimate of the loss in revenue that would descent. For the rest the reply to this result from separate taxation of husbands question is, Yes, in accordance with and wives; if so, what is the estimated the provisions of section 26 (2) (b) of amount. the Group Areas Act, 1966.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: (2) Yes. where a notice in terms of section 23 (2) of the Group Areas Act, 1966, Yes; the estimated loss of normal tax has not yet been served on such a per­ son and in the case where a permit has could be as high as R34 million per annum. been issued. 1393 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1394

(3) The position of companies is regulated Relief in times of natural disaster by sections 1, 26, 27 and 36 to 38 of such as experienced during the recent the Group Areas Act, 1966. Orange River floods, is provided through subsidies and loans for restora­ Mbali Bantu Township, Pietermaritzburg tion of affected land and for production purposes. *5. Mr. W. T. WEBBER asked the Minister (2) An investigation is at present being of Bantu Administration and Development: conducted with a view to finding new methods for assisting Coloured farmers. (1) On what date were houses in the Mbali This will probably require fresh legis­ Bantu township, Pietermaritzburg, first lation which will be submitted to the occupied; House in due course. (2) (a) how many houses are there at pre­ sent in this township and (b) how many Deposits Required from Emigrants are occupied; *7. Mr. J. O. N. THOMPSON asked the (3) what is the actual or estimated popula­ Minister of the Interior: tion of the township; (1) (a) In respect of which countries is a deposit required from emigrants, (b) (4) by whom is this township administered. what is the (i) nature and (ii) amount of the deposits and (c) when was the de­ The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU posit introduced in respect of each DEVELOPMENT: country; (1) 24th May, 1965. (2) (a) how many emigrants of each race group have made deposits and (b) in (2) (a) and (b) 1,486. how many cases has part or the whole of the deposit been forfeited to the (3) Estimated population is 11,440. State. (4) By the Pietermaritzburg City Council. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR:

Financial Assistance for Coloured Farmers (1) (a) Deposits are not demanded in re­ spect of specific countries. *6. Mr. W. T. WEBBER asked the Minister (b) (i) Deposits are accepted in cash of Coloured Affairs: or bank guarantees. (1) Whether any provision is made for (ii) Deposits vaty from R25 to financial assistance and/or subsidies to R500 depending on the circum­ Coloured farmers; if so, what provision; stances of each individual case but in most cases it is fixed at (2) whether he will make a statement in R200. regard to the matter. (c) The requirement to demand a deposit The MINISTER OF COLOURED from certain persons irrespective of race AFFAIRS: was introduced some 35 years ago and was not laid down in respect of specific (1) Yes, as follows: countries. The rural Coloured areas administered (2) (a) No separate detailed record is under the Rural Coloured Areas Act, kept. 1963 (Act No. 24 of 1963) are developed and improved by means of State (b) No separate detailed record is kept. funds, of which 10 per cent is repayable on a long term basis. Land Bank loans Community Development: Subsidies in Respect are also available for the purchase of of Separate Amenities in Cape Peninsula stock. *8. Mr. J. W. E. WILEY asked the Minister The Eksteenskuil irrigation settle­ ment is being developed out of State of Community Development: funds by the construction of water and Whether any amounts have been advanced flood protection works, bridges, etc. by way of subsidy or other payments since Private farmers can obtain assistance 1953 to any local authorities for the provi­ in the form of subsidies and loans sion of separate amenities in the Cape Penin­ through medium of the Department of sula; if so, (a) what amounts, (b) when, (c) Water Affairs and under the Soil Con­ to which local authorities and (d) for what servation Act. purpose. 1395 1s t MARCH, 1968 1396 The MINISTER OF COMMUNITY DEVE­ LOPMENT: Water Supplied by Rand Water Board In respect of the establishment of separate *12. Mr. C. BENNETT asked the Minister residential areas the Department of Com­ of Water Affairs: munity Development made loans available on a liberal scale. I presume, however, that (a) How many gallons of water per day the hon. member’s question does not refer are supplied by the Rand Water Board to hereto but to the provision of specific ameni­ (i) the Rosslyn and (ii) the Rustenburg border ties such as schools, sports fields, libraries, industry complex and (b) what will be the etc. This is the responsibility of other De­ estimated quantity supplied during each year partments and of local authorities them­ up to 1973. selves. The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS: Planning Subsidies in Respect of Separate Amenities in Cape Peninsula (a) (i) 0.254 million gallons per day to Rosslyn. *9. Mr. I. W. E. WILEY asked the Minister of Planning: (ii) 0.645 million gallons per day to Garankuwa. Whether any amounts have been advan­ ced by way of subsidy or other payment (iii) 1.175 million gallons per day to since 1953 to any local authorities for the Rustenburg. and the Rustenburg provision of seperate amenities in the Cape Platinum Mines. Peninsula; if so, fa) what amounts, (b) when, (c) to which local authorities and (d) (b) (i) Estimate by the Transvaal Board for what purpose. for the Development of Peri Urban Areas for Rosslyn/Garankuwa. The MINISTER OF PLANNING: None. 1970 1.5 million gallons per day. 1972 2.5 million gallons per day. fa) to (d) fall away. 1975 3.50 million gallons per day. Coloured Affairs: Subsidies in Respect of (ii) Estimate by the Rand Water Board Separate Amenities in Cape Peninsula for the Rustenburg complex. *10 Mr. I. W. E. WILEY asked the Minister 1970 6.0 million gallons per day. of Coloured Affairs: 1972 6.7 million gallons per day. 1975 7.1 million gallons per day. Whether any amounts have been advanced by way of subsidy or other payment since Hospitals in Bantu Areas 1953 to any local authorities for the provi­ sion of separate amenities in the Cape *13. Dr. A. RADFORD asked the Minister Peninsula; if so, (a) what amounts, (b) when of Bantu Administration and Development: (c) to which local authorities and (d) for what purpose. (1) (a) How many hospitals in Bantu areas have been completed bv his Department The MINISTER OF COLOURED since 1st January, 1965, (b) where are AFFAIRS: these hospitals situated and (c) how many beds do they provide; No. (2) (a) how many extensions to mission (a), (b), (c) and (d) fall away. hospitals have been completed, (b) in what areas and (c) how many additional Persons Employed in Private Industry beds have been provided; *11. Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER asked the Minister of Planning: (3) what is the Department’s current pro­ gramme in respect of the building of hospitals. How many persons of each race group were employed in private industry as at The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU the end of each of the years 1965, 1966 and DEVELOPMENT:

The MINISTER OF PLANNING: (0 (a) (b) (c) Year White Coloured Asiatic Bantu Total Beds 1965 233,200 151,100 48,000 482,400 914 700 (i) Bophelong Mafeking 1966 245,600 164,100 52,700 498,900 961 300 2,000 1967 254,900 164,100 58,400 526,300 1,003,700 (ii) Madadeni Newcastle 1,500 1397 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1398

(iii) Letaba Tzaneen 200 (a) To give consideration to the institution of an honour or decoration for meri­ (iv) Gelukspan Lichtenburg 500 torious civilian service to the State, and to submit recommendations. (v) Tulasizwe Mahlabatini 100 (b) Representatives of the Department of: In addition three new hospitals, which the Prime Minister, Police, Cultural together will provide approximately Affairs, the Interior, Finance, Defence, 1,000 beds, are in the course of con­ Foreign Affairs, and Justice, under the struction. chairmanship of the Secretary for Foreign Affairs. (2) (a) 53. Compensation for Dependants of Passengers in (b) In the Bantu homelands throughout Rietbok the Republic. * 16.Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER asked the (c) Approximately 1,000. Minister of Transport: (3) According to present planning and if Whether all the dependants of passengers funds are available 12 new hospitals will who lost their lives in the aircraft Rietbok be erected in the course of the next 5 have received compensation; if not, (a) how to 6 years which together will provide many still have to receive compensation and approximately 7,170 beds. (b) when is it expected that compensation for all dependants will be finalized. Distribution of Skimmed Milk Powder The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: *14. Dr. A. RADFORD asked the Minister of Health: No. (1) How many (a) local authorities in white (a) and (b) None has as yet received com­ areas and (b) Bantu authorities are pensation, but questionnaires for actu­ participating in the scheme for distri­ arial assessment purposes are to be buting skimmed milk powder at a sub­ returned by claimants or their attorneys sidized price to needy pre-school-going by the end of March, 1968, whereafter children; endeavours will be made to finalise the claims within a period of six months. (2) how many pounds of skimmed milk powder were distributed during the latest Tenders in Respect of Pier No. 2, Durban year for which figures are available; Harbour (3) what was the cost of the scheme to the *17. Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER asked the Government during the same year. Minister of Transport: The MINISTER OF HEALTH: (1) (a) Whether tenders have been called for for the work on Pier No. 2 in (1) (a) 145, (b) 12. Durban Harbour and (b) when is it estimated that work will start; (2) 1,569,830 pounds skimmed milk powder. (2) whether private sailing clubs have been (3) R78,491 (1967-’68—estimated). given permission to move to the new sites allocated to them; if not, when Honouring of Persons Rendering Outstanding will permission be given. Services to S.A. The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: *15. Mr. J. D. DU P. BASSON asked the Prime Minister: (1) (a) and (b) The construction programme on pier No. 1 and the cross quay Whether he has appointed a committee to includes part of the quay wall of pier enquire into the matter of honouring people No. 2, as well as dredging and filling. who have rendered outstanding services to The work is programmed to progress South Africa; if so, (a) what are the terms uninterruptedly, and tenders for the of reference of the committee and (b) who remainder of the work on pier No. 2 are the members thereof. will be invited when the appropriate stage is reached. The PRIME MINISTER: (2) No. The Durban City Council’s ac­ Yes: a committee of officials, which ceptance of the draft agreement of lease reports periodically to a special Cabinet is being awaited. The Council has also sub-committee dealing with this matter. been requested to ensure that the neces­ 1399 1s t MARCH, 1968 1400

sary access road, lighting, etc., are made Operatives available to the sporting clubs. (This is also a new grading which was introduced on 1st Janu­ Pay Increases for Permanent Force Members ary, 1966.) Private: R 1,800 x 120—2,280 *18. Mr. G. S. EDEN asked the Minister of Lance Corporal: R 1,800 x 120— Defence: 2,400 Corporal: R1.800 x 120—2,520 (1) Whether any pay increases were granted Sergeant: R2.280 x 120—2,640 during 1966 and 1967 to privates, lance- Staff Sergeant: R2.280 x 120— corporals, corporals, sergeants and ser- 2,760 geants-major in the Permanent Force; Warrant Officer II: R2.520 x 120— if so, what increases in respect of (a) 2.880 White and (b) Coloured personnel; Warrant Officer I: R2.520 x 120— 3,000 (2) what are the comparative rates of pay for these ranks. Non-Tradesmen Private: R840 x 90—1,560 x 120— The MINISTER OF DEFENCE (Reply laid 2,280 (R840—900 x 102—1,716) upon Table with leave of House): Lance Corporal: R840 x 90—1 560 x 120—2,400 (R 1,002 x 102— (1) Yes, on 1st January, 1966, when the 1,818) salary scales of all European civil ser­ Corporal: R840 x 90—1,560 x 120 vants throughout the Public Service 2,520 (R 1.104 x 102-1,920) were revised. Sergeant: R 1,680 x 120—2 640 (R1.410 x 102—1,920 x 120 (a) TTie salary scales which were intro­ 2,040) duced on 1st January, 1966. are Staff Sergeant: Rl,680 x 120—2,760 shown first with those applicable (R1.512 x 102—1,920 x 120— prior to that date in brackets there­ 2,160) under. Warrant Officer II: R 1,920 x 120— 2,880 (Rl,710 x 102—1,920 x 120 Technicians 2,400) (This grading was introduced for Warrant Officer I: R 1,920 x 120— the first time in the Permanent „. 3,000 (R 1,920 x 120—2,520) Force on 1st January, 1966, in place of the artificer grading. The salary (b) No salary increases were granted to scales in brackets are those which Coloured members of the Perma­ were applicable to the former arti­ nent Force during 1966 and 1967. ficer grading.) Private: R1.800 x 120—2,640 Lance Corporal: R 1,800 x 120— (2) The salary scales applicable to the vari­ 2,760 ous gradings and ranks of the South African Coloured Corps are as fol­ Corporal: R1.800 x 120—3,000 lows:— (R2.040 x 120—2,280) Sergeant: R3.000 x 120—3,480 Artisans (R2.160 x 120—2.400) Staff Sergeant: R3.000 x 120—3,600 (There are no gradings of tech­ nician and operative in the Col­ (R2.280 x 120—2.520) oured Corps.) Warrant Officer II: R3,600 x 150 —4,050 (R2.400 x 120—2,640) Private: R900 x 60—1.440 Lance Corporal: R1.140 x 60— Warrant Officer I: R3,600 x 150— 1,560 4.200 (R2.520 x 120—2,760) Artisans Corporal: R 1.200 x 60—1.620 Private: R1.800 x 120—2,520 Sergeant: R 1,320 x 60—1 740 (R 1,614 x 102—1.920) Staff Sergeant: R 1,380 x 60—1,800 Lance Corporal: R 1,800 x 120— Warrant Officer II: R 1.440 x 60— 2,640 (R1.716 x 102—1,920— 1.800 x 84—1.968 2,040) Warrant Officer I: R 1,560 x 60— Corporal: R 1,800 x 120—2.760 1.800 x 84—2,136 (R 1,920 x 120—2,160) Non-Tradesmen Sergeant: R2.400 x 120—2,880 Private: R660 x 60—1.380 (R2.040 x 120—2,280) Lance Corporal: R780 x 60—1 440 Staff Sergeant: R2.400 x 120— Corporal: R900 x 60—1 560 3.120 (R2.160 x 120—2.400) Sergeant: R 1,140 x 60—Í,620 Warrant Officer II: R 2.640 x 120— Staff Sergeant: R 1,200 x 60—1 740 W frant Officer II: R 1,320 x 60— 3,360 (R2.280 x 120—1.520) I -800 Warrant Officer I: R2.640 x 120— Wairant Officer T: R 1,440 x 6 0 - 3,600 (R2,400 x 120—2,640) 1.800 x 84—1.968 1401 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1402

For the salary scales of European control over the prices of these products is members see the reply to question exercised by the Government. 1 (a). Post Office Savings Bank Records *19. Capt. W. J. B. SMITH—Reply stand­ ing over. *23. M, L. F. WOOD asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: *20. Dr. E. L. FISHER—Reply standing over. (1) How many months are the Post Office Savings Bank’s records in arrear; Applications for Research Grants met by C.S.I.R. (2) whether all customers’ balances have been reconciled with Head Office books; *21. Mr. L. F. WOOD asked the Minister of if not, when was the last reconciliation Planning: made. What percentage of applications from uni­ The MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELE­ versities to the Council for Scientific and GRAPHS: Industrial Research in respect of research grants has the Council been able to meet (1) These records are not in arrear. out of the funds made available to it. (2) Yes. The MINISTER OF PLANNING: Outbreak of New Disease in Natal and Research grants are not made to universi­ Zuiuland ties but to persons attached to universities. 83.5 per cent of the applications of such *24. Dr. A. RADFORD asked the Minister persons were successful or partly successful. of Health: Retail Price Maintenance (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to the incidence of a new illness in the *22. Mr. L. F. WOOD asked the Minister of North Coastal Area of Natal and Zulu- Economic Affairs: land causing paralysis of the extensor muscles of the hand and foot; Whether in the light of the report of the Board of Trade on retail price maintenance (2) whether his Department has investiga­ his Department intends to take steps to en­ ted the nature and the cause of the ill­ courage or to discourage the abandonment ness; if so, with what result; if not, why of retail price maintenance in respect of (a) not; petrol, (b) motor oils, (c) tyres and acces­ sories and (d) motor car, motor truck and (3) what steps does he propose to take to tractor spares. remedy and control (a) the present and (b) any future outbreak. The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS: The MINISTER OF HEALTH: The relevant report of the Board of Trade (1) No, the Department is not aware of and Industries is still under consideration cases in the North Coastal Area of and it is therefore not possible at this stage Natal, but cases occurred in the dis­ to give any indication whether steps in tricts of Vryheid and Ngotshe; accordance with the Board’s recommenda­ tions will be taken, (2) Yes; the results up to the present indi­ I may add that Government control is cate poisoning by insecticides; exercised over the prices of petrol, tyres and accessories. In the case of petrol, price main­ (3) (a) All cases where necessary are tenance is not applied by the petrol compa­ treated in hospitals, and most of nies, but prices are fixed for the different them have already been discharged. areas in terms of a tripartite agreement be­ tween my Department, the petrol companies (b) Health education to make the pub­ and the Motor Industries Federation. In the lic conscious of the dangers invol­ case of tyres and accessories, price mainte­ ved in the indiscriminate use of nance is, however, applied by the tyre manu­ insecticides, has been intensified. facturers, but the companies have to obtain The Department distributes films my Department’s prior approval before any concerning the safe handling of in­ increases in prices are introduced. secticidal poisons for showing to As far as motor oils, motor car, motor the public. A circular has been sent truck and tractor spares are concerned, price to medical practitioners drawing maintenance is in many instances applied by their attention to the possibility of the manufacturers of the products, but no poisoning by insecticides, the diag- 1403 1s t MARCH, 1968 1404

nosis thereof, and reminding them (b) R50,000 for the purchase and replace­ that insecticidal poisoning is noti­ ment of equipment. fiable. For written reply: Fines in Respect of Objectionable Publications Advertising Cost of R.S.A. Savings Schemes 4. Mr. E. G. MALAIN asked the Minister of 1. Mrs. H. SUZMAN asked the Minister of Finance: Finance: (1) Whether officials of the Customs De­ What is the total cost to date of advertis­ partment have the right to levy fines ing the R.S.A. savings schemes. on individuals or bodies deemed to have brought objectionable publications into The MINISTER OF FINANCE: the Republic; if so, (a) under what sta­ R 121,000. tutory authority, (b) what are the maxi­ mum fines which can be levied and (c) Degrees Awarded by University College for how many such officials are employed Indians and what are their qualifications, grades and salary scales; 2. Mrs. H. SUZMAN asked the Minister of Indian Affairs: (2) (a) how many such fines were levied at (a) How many students were awarded (i) each port of entry in each financial degrees and (ii) diplomas by the University year since 1960-’61 and from 1st April, College for Indians at the end of the 1967 1967, to date, (b) what was the total academic year and (b) in what faculties or amount of fines levied in each case and subjects were the degrees and diplomas, re­ (c) what were the 10 highest fines paid spectively, awarded. and the publications involved at the port of entry where the largest number The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: of objectionable publications were sub­ jected to fines. (a) (i) 98; (ii) 74. (b) Degrees: B.A., B.A. (Social Science), The MINISTER OF FINANCE: B.Sc., B.A. (Fine Arts), B.Com., B.Sc. (Pharmacy), B.A. (Honours), B.Sc. Hon­ (1) Yes, under delegation from the Secre­ ours). tary for Customs and Excise, on signing of admission of guilt: Diplomas: Social Science, Primary Education Diploma, Higher Primary (a) Section 91 of the Customs and Ex­ Education Diploma, Junior Secondary cise Act (No. 91 of 1964) read with Education Diploma, University Educa­ sections 113 (1) (f) and 83 (a) or tion Diploma. 81 of the Act. Funds Voted for Audio-Visual Education and National Film Board (b) R2,000 or treble the value of the goods in question, whichever 3. Mr. E. G. MALAN asked the Minister of amount is the greater, and the goods National Education: are liable to forfeiture. What are the particulars of the amounts voted during the current financial year (a) (c) One. A Deputy Secretary on the for audio-visual education and (b) by way salary scale R6,600 x 300—R7,500. of a loan to the National Film Board. The official is qualified by his ex­ tensive experience and maturity to The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCA- deal with these matters. (Note: For the convenience of passengers the Controllers of Cus­ (a) Technical furniture, technical R toms and Excise at the principal equipment and supplies ... 9,490 places of entry have been delegated Reproduction of films and film the authority to accept, as an alter­ strips...... 208,200 native to prosecution and at the Production of films and film request of the persons concerned, strips and the translation admissions of guilt and provisional and adaption of film s...... 268,100 payments to cover possible penal­ Reproduction in Afrikaans of ties to be decided upon by the overseas translated films ... 20,000 Deputy Secretary who is stationed Gramaphone records...... 11,780 at Cape Town). Language laboratories ...... 3,730 (2) (a) and (b) As per Schedule “A” below, R521.300 (c) As per Schedule “B” below. 1405 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1406

SCHEDULE “A” Cape Town 100 Someone’s Sleeping in My Bed (2) (a) and (b): The Desire Years Financial Number Total Living High Year. Place of Entry. of Fines. amount. Here is My Body. (R) »> 60 My Neighbour’s Wife 1960/61 — Nil Nil Girls and Gangs 1961/62 — Nil Nil Dark Hunger. 1962/63 Jan Smuts Airport 4 195 99 60 Sunbathing Review Other Nil Nil Nudist Newsfront 1963/64 Jan Smuts Airport 6 425 Curve. Other Nil Nil 50 Male Models. 1964/65 Cape Town 2 80 99 30 Lolita. Jan Smuts Airport 1 100 30 Playboy. Pretoria 19 930 ,, 30 Penthouse. Windhoek 1 200 9J Port Elizabeth 2 300 Other Nil Nil Aircraft for Official Transport 1965/66 Cape Town 42 1,620 99 Jan Smuts Airport 1 50 5. Mr. E. G. MALAN asked the Minister 99 Pretoria 4 160 of Defence: J> Windhoek 3 180 j j Port Elizabeth 6 300 Whether he is now in a position to furnish 99 Johannesburg 4 285 the further particulars envisaged by him 9 9 Bloemfontein 4 190 in connection with aircraft for official trans­ Durban 6 180 port mentioned in his statement of 26th Other Nil Nil August, 1966. 1966/67 Cape Town 3 45 Jan Smuts Airport 4 9 9 280 The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: > J Windhoek 1 15 Johannesburg 2 45 99 No. 99 Other Nil Nil Period 1.4.67 to 6. Mr. E. G. MALAN—Reply standing over. 29.2.68 Cape Town 4 280 Jan Smuts Airport 11 560 Traffic and Industrial Noise Port Elizabeth 2 55 Johannesburg 1 30 7. Mr. E. G. MALAN asked the Minister East London 1 30 of Economic Affairs: Other Nil Nil (1) Whether the incidence and level of noise in connection with traffic, industry and commerce has been investigated; if so, SCHEDULE “B” (a) what was the nature of the investi­ gation, (b) what particular type of noise (2)(c): was investigated and (c) where and when Place of Amount Titles of Publications was the investigation made; Entry. of Fine Involved. (R) (2) whether any steps have been taken in Cape Town 200 Playboy this respect; if so, what steps; Frills Informal (3) whether legislation is envisaged in this Tropic of Cancer regard; if so, when is it expected to be The Carpetbaggers introduced. Mirage. 120 Candy How to Talk Dirty and The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC AF­ Influence People FAIRS : Oral Love-Making Seduction of Suzy (1) No, investigations of this nature will Francon Duclos not normally be undertaken by my White Thighs Department. However, the South Afri­ Helen and Desire can Bureau of Standards, on the basis Kidnap. of recommendations of the International 120 The Awful Disclosures Standards Organization, published an of Maria Monk Industrial Noise Code in 1962, a Vehicle Tropic of Capricorn Noise Code in 1965 and a Disturbance Naked Lunch Code in 1967. My Secret Life Last Exit to Brooklyn. (a), (b), (c), (2) and (3) fall away. 1407 1s t MARCH, 1968 1408

Schools Established in Mbali Bantu Township, quarry near the Bellville gaol during Pietermaritzburg July, 1967; if so, (a) on what date, (b) how many prisoners of each race group 8. Mr. W. T. WEBBER asked the Minister were there in the party and (c) how of Bantu Education: many in each race group had been con­ victed in each provincial division of the (1) How many (a) creches, (b) nursery Supreme Court or each magistrate’s schools, (c) lower primary schools, (d) court concerned; higher primary schools and (e) secondary schools have been established in Mbali (2) whether any members of the party are Bantu township, Pietermaritzburg by still at large; if so, how many. (i) his Department, (ii) the Pietermaritz­ burg City Council and (iii) other bodies; The MINISTER OF PRISONS;

(2) (a) how many pupils are enrolled and (1) Yes, a section of a work party, viz. 5 (b) how many classrooms are provided of a party of 119. in each of these categories of schools; (a) 18th July, 1967. (3) what was the total enrolment provided (b) All Bantu. for at the time of the establishment of each of these categories of schools. (c) One in the Supreme Court at Eshowe and in the Magistrate’s The MINISTER OF BANTU EDUCA­ Court at Beaufort-West; one in the TION : Magistrate’s Courts at Matubatuba, Britstown, Worcester, Cape Town (1) (a) and (b) Crëches and nursery schools and Bellville; one in the Magis­ do not fall under the control of trate’s Courts at Port Elizabeth, my Department of Bantu Education. Kirkwood, Jansenville, Graaff- Reinet and Rawsonville; one in the (i) (ii) (iii) Magistrate’s Courts at Bellville, Cape Town and Worcester; and one (c) none 1 none in the Magistrate’s Courts at Port Elizabeth and Patensie. (d) 1 none none (2) No. (e) none none none Printing of Telephone Directory (2) (a) (b) 10. Mr. E. G. MALAN asked the Minister Lower primary school: 1,206 10 of Posts and Telegraphs: Higher primary school: 469 11 (1) What was (a) the total printing cost, (3) Lower primary school: 800 fb) the name of the printer, (c) the town Higher primary school: 550 in which the printer’s business is situated and (d) the number of copies printed The school mentioned in paragraph in respect of the latest issue of each (1) (d) (i) is a combined lower and higher telephone directory in the Republic; primary school and is situated in the buffer zone. (2) how many issues of each directory are normally printed in each year; Attempted Escape of Prisoners from Bellville Quarry (3) (a) what was the total gross and net value of advertising carried in each 9. Mr. J. O. N. Thompson asked the Minister directory and (b) what were the arrange­ of Prisons: ments in regard to the division of the (1) Whether a work party of prisoners revenue in respect of each directory. attempted to escape from a granite The MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELE­ GRAPHS : (1) (a) (b) (c) (d) Transvaal, Volume 1A: R507,185.78 Hayne and Gibson Ltd. Johannesburg 670,542 Transvaal, Volume IB: R249,052.75 J » »5 Transvaal, Volume II: R281,456.68 520,526 Natal: R70,004.53 Natal Witness (Pty.) Ltd. Pietermaritzburg 173,000 O.F.S. and Northern Cape: R48,717.74 Hayne and Gibson Ltd. Johannesburg 152,743 Port Elizabeth, East London and neighbouring districts: R44,217.35 »> 128,408 Cape Peninsula, Western and Southern Cape: R167.643.30 Cape and Transvaal Cape Town 254,200; Printers Ltd. 1409 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1410 (2) one; (3) (a) Cape Peninsula, Western and Southern Cape: Gross R414.042.70, net R404 306 26 p°rt Ehzabeth, East London and neighbouring districts: Gross R168J8L70,’ net R167 920 17 ... _ These Particulars are not yet available in respect of the other directories. (b) Transvaal Volume 1A, IB and II: Government 82% and Contractor 18% Natal: « v / 17V O.F.S. and Northern Cape: 85% ” ” \5 y Port Elizabeth, East London and neighbouring districts: ” 83% ” ” n y Cape Peninsula, Western and Southern Cape: ’’ 8 1% ” ” \<) y (The aforementioned particulars refer to the 1967 issue of the various telephone directories)!

Printing of Cape Telephone Directory 11. Mr. E. G. MALAN asked the Minister The MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELE­ of Posts and Telegraphs: GRAPHS: Whether the printing of the Cape Penin­ (1) Yes. sula, Western and Southern Cape telephone directory has been awarded to a new con­ (a) mainly as a result of damage and tractor; if so, (a) what was the name of the delay that occurred when the former printer, (b) in what town is the machinery was flooded by an excep­ business of this printer situated, (c) for what tionally heavy rain and hail storm period had the printer printed the directory, while it was being installed in the (d) what was the total number of issues basement of a new building; and printed by the former printer and (e) when was the contract with the new printer signed. (b) distribution is expected to com­ mence shortly. The MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELE­ GRAPHS: (2) Yes. Yes. (3) It is unlikely that a similar delay will again occur. (a) Cape and Transvaal Printers Ltd. (4) R 133,000. (b) Cape Town. (5) Yes. (c) 1958 to 1967. Indian Affairs: Funds Advanced for Separate (d) 10. Amenities in Cape Peninsula (e) 2nd March, 1967. 13. Mr. J. W. E. WILEY asked the Minister of Indian Affairs: Delayed Issue of Cape Telephone Directory Whether any amounts have been advanced 12. Mr. E. G. MALAN asked the Minister by way of subsidy or other payment since of Posts and Telegraphs: 1953 to any local authorities for the provi­ sion of separate amenities in the Cape (1) Whether there has been any delay in Peninsula; if so, (a) what amounts, (b) when making the latest issue of the Cape (c) to which local authorities and (d) for Peninsula, Western and Southern Cape what purpose. telephone dirctory available to sub­ scribers; if so, (a) what are the reasons The MINISTER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS: for the delay and (b) when is it expected that the directories will be made avail­ No. able; (a), (b) (c) and (d) fall away. (2) whether the printing contract contains a penalty clause in regard to delays; Manufacturing and Service Concerns Established in Indian Group Areas (3) whether he is taking any steps to avoid similar delays in future; if so, what 14. Mr. D. E. MITCHELL asked the Minis­ steps; ter of Economic Affairs: (4) what will be the estimated cost of (a) How many (i) manufacturing and (ii) printing one issue of the new directory; service concerns have been established by Indians in proclaimed urban Indian group (5) whether the cost includes deliveries from areas and (b) how many Indians are em­ the printers to Cape Town. ployed in these concerns. 1411 1s t MARCH, 1968 1412

The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC AF­ women; if so, (a) under what circum­ FAIRS: stances, (b) what are the particulars of the allowance or compensation and (c) (a) (i) and (ii) and (b) I regret that this to how many is it being paid; information is not available. (3) (a) what is the extent of the area, (b) Financial Assistance for Businesses in Indian how much of the land in the area is Group Areas under cultivation at present and (c) what crops were harvested there in the years 15. Mr. D. E. MITCHELL asked the Minis­ 1966 and 1967. ter of Economic Affairs: The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ (a) How many Indian entrepreneurs have TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT: received financial assistance from the Industrial Development Corporation for the (1) (a) 645 families. establishment of (i) manufacturing and (ii) service concerns in proclaimed urban Indian (b) 23rd August, 1966. group areas and (b) what was the total sum granted by way of such assistance. (2) No special allowances are paid but com­ pensation is paid for improvements. The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC AF­ FAIRS: (a) Compensation is paid to those resi­ dents who possess improvements of (a) (i) and (ii) None. a permanent nature. (b) Falls away. (b) The amount of compensation is de­ termined on a valuation basis. Indian Management Bodies (c) To those who own improvements. 16. Mr. D. E. MITCHELL asked the Minis­ ter of Community Development: (3) (a) 9,363 morgen. (1) How many Indian (a) town boards or (b) 850 morgen. other local authorities, (b) local affairs committees, (c) management committees (c) As the Bantu arrived at their new and (d) consultative committees have place of abode so late in the year been constituted; no grain crops were harvested during 1966 and likewise as a result (2) how many of the (a) local affairs and of the conditions of drought which (b) management committees have elec­ prevailed in the area no grain ted as well as nominated members; crops were harvested in 1967. How­ ever, these people are stock farm­ (3) how many of the (a) management and ers and only cultivate grain for (b) consultative committees are in pro­ home consumption. vinces other than the Transvaal. Motor Vehicles in Service of S.A.R. & H. The MINISTER OF COMMUNITY DE­ VELOPMENT : The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT replied to Question 7, by Mr. L. E. D. Winchester, (1) (a) 1, (b) 14, (c) 0, (d) 5. standing over from 16th February:

(2) (a) 10, (b) falls away. Question: (3) (a) falls away, (b) 0. (a) How many motor vehicles were in the service of the South African Railways and Harbours Administration during 1965-’66 Removal of Bantu to Area between Elands and 1966-’67, respectively, (b) how many of River and Pilanes Mountain them were involved in road accidents, (c) 17. Mr. E. G. MALAN asked the Minister how many people were (i) killed and (ii) of Bantu Administration and Development: injured in these accidents and (d) what was the cost to the Administration as a result (1) How many Bantu persons have been of these accidents. moved to the new Bantu area between the Elands River and the Pilanes Moun­ Reply: tain and (b) on what date was the first (a) 1965- ’66 8,842 Bantu moved; 1966- ’67 8,455 (2) whether an allowance or other form of (b) 1965- ’66 1,952 compensation is paid to Bantu men and 1966- ’67 1,525 1413 ASSEMBLY DEBATES 1414

(i) 1965-’66 34 Magabeni Umbumbulu 1966-’67 42 Ncotshane Pongola Hammarsdale Camperdown (ii) 1965-’66 415 Clermont Pinetown 1966-’67 398 Zwelitsha King William’s Town Mdantsane East London 1965-’66 R 155.437 1966-67 R158.799 (ii) and (iii) Bantu who are unable to obtain a livelihood in white areas, pen­ Bantu Townships in Bantu Areas sioners, families of men employed else­ where, aged and chronically disabled The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINIS­ persons are housed in all Bantu town­ TRATION AND DEVELOPMENT replied to ships as well as agricultural residential Question 13. by Mr. T. G. Hughes, standing areas. over from 27th February: The information is not available as Question: separate figures are not kept (a) What are the names of all the town­ Rolling Stock in Service of S.A.R. ships in Bantu areas which (i) serve border industrial areas, (ii) house Bantu who are The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT replied unable to obtain a livelihood in white areas, to Question 25, by Mr. L. F. Wood, standing including pensioners and the families of men over from 27th February: employed elsewhere and (iii) house aged and chronically disabled persons, (b) in which Question: area is each township situated and (c) how many persons in each category are accom­ (1) How many (a) third class saloons, (b) modated in each township. third class 8 wheeled stock suburban coaches, (c) third class and van 8 wheeled Reply: stock suburban coaches, (d) third class 8 wheeled stock suburban electric (a) (i) (b) trailers, (e) third class 8 wheeled stock Mahwelereng Potgietersrust suburban plain trailers, (f) third class Moletsi Pietersburg suburban electric motor coaches and (g) Nkowakowa Tzaneen third class and van suburban electric Lenyenyee Tzaneen motor coaches were in stock as at 31st Letsitele Tzaneen December, 1967; Ga Kgapane Duiwelskloof Namakgale Phalaborwa (2) how many in each category were (a) in Thlabane Rustenburg stock, (b) added to stock and (c) scrap­ Itsoseng Lichtenburg ped during each financial year from Montshiwa Mafeking 1962-’63 to 1966-’67; Magogong Taung (3) (a) how many in each category are on Ga Rankuwa Pretoria order, (b) when were the orders placed Mabopane Pretoria and (c) when is delivery due. Temba Hammanskraal Newelezana Empangeni Madadeni Newcastle Reply: Osizweni Newcastle Sundumbili Eshowe (1) and (2) The information as at 31st Gezinsila Eshowe December, 1967, is not readily available, Umlazi Umbumbulu but the annexures to the General Kwa Makuta Umbumbulu Manager’s Annual Report reflect all the Montrose Howick desired information in respect of the relevant financial years.

(3) (a) (b) (c) Third-class mainline saloons None — — Third-class suburban coaches None — — Third-class and van suburban coaches ...... None — — Third-class suburban electric driving trailers ...... None — — Third-class suburban plain trailers ...... 149 February, 1967. Delivery has commenced and will be completed by May, 1969, 1415 1s t MARCH, 1968 1416 Third-class suburban electric motor coaches ...... None Third-class and van electric motor coaches ...... 45 February, 1967. Delivery has commenced and will be completed by May, 1969. It is proposed to convert 175 superior- class main-line coaches to third class by by SATOUR and the South African July, 1969, and to place an order for 50 Airways to cover internal arrangements third-class saloons for delivery from May only. The air fares to and from points to September, 1969. of origin were borne by the Department of Tourism as follows: Facilities for Overseas Travel Writers E. Wheeler R 1,263.90 Miss G. Tully R746.60 The MINISTER OF TOURISM replied to (This journey to the Republic was Question 26, by Mr. E. G. Malan, standing undertaken during the 1965-’66 Finan­ over from 27th February: cial Year. The air fare account, however, was received only in July, 1967 from Question: the South African Railways.) G. Joop R539.60 (1) (a) What facilities were offered to the Mrs. A. Hope R570.60 eleven overseas travel writers referred Dr. F. Wagner R950.00 to in the 1966-’67 Report of the South Dr. Crombach R950.00 African Tourist Corporation and (b) Mrs. J. Simmonds R 1.373.50 what was the cost involved in each case; D. Tennant R950.00 I. Bauer Rl,410.82 (2) whether any of these writers gave W. Wisner R l,102.82 lectures in South Africa under the W. Kaup R l.102.82 auspices of the Corporation or his C. Anderson R950.00 Department; if so, (2) No. (3) whether any fee or other remuneration was paid to them for these lectures; if (3) Falls Away. so, what amount; (4) No. (4) whether any lectures given by any of these writers during their visit for their (5) Falls Away. own financial gain were brought to the notice of the Corporation or his Depart­ ment; if so, New Durban Station (5) whether any arrangements were made The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT replied to set off any income derived from such to Question 29, by Mr. W. V. Raw, standing lecturers against the cost of inviting the over from 27th February: persons concerned; if not, why not. Question: Reply: What progress has been made in regard (1) (a) Internal transport and accommoda­ to (a) the siting and fb) the building or pre­ tion facilities in accordance with a paration therefor of the new Durban station. variety of itineraries basically following the route Johannesburg/Kimberley/ Reply: Cape Town/Oudtshoorn/Port Elizabeth/ East London/Durban/Pretoria/Kruger (a) The site has been decided upon but the National Park. The length of stay was detailed plans of the track layout are between fourteen and twenty-one days. still engaging attention. (b) Elmer Wheeler R586.68 (b) Consultants have been appointed in con­ G. Joop & A. Hope, accom­ nection with the design of the station panied by Courier R2.190.00 complex. Dr. F. Wagner. D. Crombach, J. Simmonds, D. Tennant, FIRST READING OF BILLS accompanied by Courier R2.278.60 Irwin Sauer R 1,271.00 The following Bills were read a First Time: William Wisner R 1,331.96 W. Kaup, C. Anderson ac­ Expropriation Amendment Bill. companied by Courier Rl.743.88 The above amounts were paid jointly Pre-Union Statute Law Revision Bill.

Collection Number: A1132 Collection Name: Patrick LEWIS Papers, 1949-1987

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