STATE LIBRARY OF .N

PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY ADVISORY COMMITTEE

Verbatim Transcript of an interview with

Ian Thompson

b.1948 - d. 2009

Access Research: Open Publication: Open

STATE LIBRARY OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA - ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION DATE OF INTERVIEW: 11 September 2009 INTERVIEWER: Ronda Jamieson TRANSCRIBER: DURATION: 6 sound discs REFERENCE NUMBER: OH 2264/2 COPYRIGHT: Parliament of Western Australia and Library Board of Western Australia

Amended January 2011 to show release from embargo State Library ot W A

3 11 1 1 04215096 9 Table of Contents THOMPSON (2009)

Contents Page Number Positions in Shadow Ministry 1 Pre-selection process 2

1989 election Manipulation of Liberal Party branches 3 Departure from Shadow Ministry 4 Announcement of resignation from Liberal Party during 5

Parliamentary speech Decision not to contest 1993 election 6

Influence of Independents Assessment of Sir as Premier 8 Assessment of as Premier 9 Friendship with Laurie and Elizabeth Connell 10 Support of Rothwells bailout 11 Assessment of as Premier

Effects of WA_ Inc _Royal _Commission Participation in various Parliamentary Committees while an 12

Independent Comments on Barry MacKinnon's demise as Liberal Party leader 14 Reasons for not contesting 1993 election 15 Assessments of Cohn Barnett and Troy Buswell 17 Advocation of Federal Parliament and no State Parliaments 18 Activities since retirement from State Parliament 20 INTRODUCTION

Ian Thompson was interviewed for the Parliamentary History Project by Ronda Jamieson in 1987. This interview, conducted on 11 September 2009, continues from that point, and should be read in conjunction with the previous interview.

The 2009 interview covered the remainder of Ian Thompson's political career, including the decision to resign from the Liberal Party in July 1989 and become an Independent member of Parliament until the 1993 election which he did not contest. It covers the various Shadow Ministries held before his resignation from the Party, the parliamentary Select Committees on which he served, and his comments on the role of Independent members. The leadership of the Labor governments and Liberal oppositions from 1989 until 1993 are covered, together with the 1991 Royal Commission into the Activities of Government, known as the WA Inc Royal Commission. Ian Thompson's activities since leaving Parliament are briefly discussed.

Sadly, Ian Thompson died on 3 December 2009, aged 74.

The interview was conducted in the Parliament of Western Australia by Ronda Jamieson. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON

This is an interview with Ian Thompson being held at the Parliament of Western Australia on 11 September 2009. The interviewer is Ronda Jamieson.

RJ Ian, I'll first of all identify that you were already interviewed for the Parliamentary History Project back in 1987.

THOMPSON Yes, I was.

RJ And we are picking up from that point. It was November 1987 when we had our last interview. At that time in 1987, Barry MacKinnon was leader of the parliamentary Liberal Party, which was, of course, in opposition. You were a member of the shadow cabinet. You actually had quite a bit of change in those couple of years. You were shadow Minister for Industrial Relations, Employment and Training. Then it was Multicultural and Ethnic Affairs, Racing and Gaming; and then Transport, Community Services and Racing and Gaming. I wondered in that time of being a shadow minister whether there was anything out of those portfolios you would like to comment on.

THOMPSON The one area that I wanted to make a contribution was in the area of industrial relations because I felt that the Liberal Party tended to play themselves out of the game in industrial relations by adopting a very hostile attitude towards the other side of politics. I had a background that saw me a part of the trade union movement. I didn't support all that the trade union movement stood for - I have made that clear before - but I felt that there was plenty of area for common ground that had to that point appeared not to have been traversed because of hostilities. And so during that period that I was the shadow Minister for Industrial Relations, I tried to move a bit closer to the trade union movement. It earned me a little bit of a problem with my parliamentary colleagues and so I don't think I was destined to stay there for very long.

RJ In what way?

THOMPSON Well, you know, I got the impression that I was in some way being a traitor to the cause by showing some sympathy towards the trade union movement.

RJ So, as strong as that even?

THOMPSON Yes, it was quite strong and so I didn't slash my wrists when I no longer had responsibility for that area because I couldn't see how I was ever going to change the mindset of the old guard, particularly in the Liberal Party.

RJ Did you try to do that in the party room; can you remember?

THOMPSON I can't remember any specific cases but I can recall on occasions trying to find a way to help resolve an issue, rather than inflame the issue.

I can remember there was a problem at Robe River where Charles Copeman had been put in by Cliffs Robe River to go and clean up the operations in their Pilbara operations. He was set a task of getting rid of or reducing the cost of production. That is essentially what it was doing because the company was faced with the prospect of having their higher grade product running out and they were having to consider massive investment to move to new ground. But the company said if the cost of their production couldn't be brought under control, that they weren't prepared to invest the money that was necessary to move into the new territories. They had to extend their rail systems and that sort of ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 2 thing, and Copeman was sent there to sort the problem out. Well, Copeman sorted it out all right, but it produced a lot of resentment and a lot of hostility.

It was rather ironical that several months (it may have been a year or so) later Copeman rang me to tell me that he had been sacked because in the meantime a change of federal government had occurred and the company was wanting to get closer to an incoming government, and Copeman was an embarrassment to the company so they tramped him. Copeman actually stood as a candidate for the federal Parliament because of his hostility to what had occurred. And I don't know what's occurred to Charles Copeman since then, but here was the guy who went in to do a job for his boss, did it effectively and then became an embarrassment, and without any hesitation, they flicked him, and that showed me the ruthlessness of big business.

RJ Just to reassure you, that is a superb microphone, it's an extremely expensive microphone, it will pick you up from wherever, so you can completely relax.

You don't feel you need to speak into it, but that was -

THOMPSON What I might do before we go on, this chair, I'd like to get the back to go up a bit higher, if it will.

RJ Yes, of course. They are not used to people of your height.

THOMPSON No, that's exactly right. Now, that will be better; otherwise it was right in the midst of my back.

RJ In that time that you were in the shadow ministry, in your view, how was the Liberal Party operating in Parliament? How effective an opposition was it under Barry MacKinnon?

THOMPSON I couldn't say that it was an outstanding performance. Opposition is unquestionably hard, and the Leader of the Opposition has an extremely difficult job. You're on a hiding to nothing. And I think Barry performed as well as was possible in the circumstances. The team he had wasn't all that experienced and the government of the day was extremely effective in their parliamentary performance and, of course, they have a lot more resources available to them, and they really outplayed the Liberal Party during that period of time.

RJ It was during that time that parliamentary terms were extended to being four years. What did you think of that move?

THOMPSON I thought it was a reasonable thing to do, although I was opposed to there being statutory four-year terms. I think a maximum four-year term was appropriate, but I don't see how you can have our system of democracy with a fixed term of four years. There's got to be an opportunity for a government to fall. To that extent, I think the legislation was appropriate because it didn't lock in four years as such; it gave a maximum of four years.

RJ For the 1989 election, due to a redistribution, Bob Greig was preselected for Helena and you for Darling Range, which had been the seat that Greig had won in 1987, even though it was now changed. What did you feel about that preselection process? ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON

THOMPSON I think what we need to do is to go back a bit in history there and look at the build-up to that situation. It was, to me, incomprehensible that George Spriggs1 would have stood down, would have retired from Parliament 14 months before the expiration of the term for which he had been elected. I'm absolutely convinced, but have no proof, that it was an orchestrated thing. It was clear that the two outer metropolitan seats (near- country seats as they were then), Darling Range and Kalamunda, would be combined and I think Greig saw an opportunity and I think was encouraged by others to move into Spriggs' seat as a means of taking a seat that would ultimately be a combined seat of the two from me.

From the time the legislation passed to have the expanded metropolitan region, I recognised that there was going to be a knockdown, drag-out brawl for whatever seat emerged because, clearly, there was only going to be one seat there. So I asked Freda, who had been my long-time, full-time secretary, to revise her hours of operation to set up a job-sharing arrangement so that I could engage someone who had journalistic background and I engaged Anita Dalton, who works in this building today, doing journalistic work. She was doing work for Graham Kierath. I think she did some for Norman Moore. But I was aware of her background in journalism and she agreed to work part-time two days a week in my office and Freda worked three days; Freda doing the normal electorate work and Anita's job was to generate publicity for me. She did that effectively, and my profile lifted significantly. Very deliberately was that done so that it would become harder for any opponent from within the party to take the endorsement off me and, if they did, it would make it easier for me to win as an Independent because I was determined to carry on.

And so when we went into the preselection for the 1989 election, it was with that sort of background. Now, I've got to say that some people didn't cover themselves with glory in the lead-up to that, and it taught me a little bit about the ruthlessness of some people in politics. And it set my jaw, as it were, for what was going to come eventually. I didn't really know what would come eventually, but I knew damned well that it wouldn't be the end of the penny section.

During the build-up to that preselection, there was some very underhand work done in manipulating branches of the Liberal Party; for instance, there were four branches of the Liberal Party in the area that had by that time become the one seat. One of those branches came into or out of being constitutional, depending on whether there was a prospect of their having an influence in a preselection ballot. George Spriggs fanned up the branch of Pickering Brook when the electoral boundaries changed and a fresh seat was generated. I think at that point the seat that Spriggs got was Darling Range and mine was Kalamunda. George, who had stood as a Country Party candidate for the upper house in 1974,2 said to me, "If ever I'm going to become a member of Parliament, I'm going to have to join the Liberal Party" and he said, "How do I go about currying favour with the Liberal Party?" I said, "Well, George, what you could do would be to establish a branch of the Liberal party in Pickering Brook", which he did. But of course, it was not very strong numerically and it wasn't until people subsequently saw an opportunity to build up its numbers to get more clout in preselection that the numbers in the seat grew.

As soon as that situation dissipated, the branch withered on the vine, but it got cranked up again for the 1989 election. It was done in a way which was contrary to the

1 George Spriggs, then Liberal Party, was elected the Member for Darling Range in February 1977 and resigned in September 1987. 2 George Spriggs stood as a Country Party candidate for the West Province in February 1971. He joined the Liberal Party in 1972. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 4 constitution of the party. I went to Tom Herzfeld, who was then the general secretary of the Liberal Party, and to Keith Simpson, who was the president of the party, and gave detail of what I believed to be unconstitutional manipulation of that particular branch in order to give Bob Greig a better chance of beating me at preselection. They sat on their hands; they did nothing about it. There were clear breaches of the constitution, but they simply allowed them to go on. Notwithstanding all of that, I won the preselection. Now, it was said that I only won by a vote. I don't think that was true, but I don't care; I won.

RJ Did Bob Greig ever let you know how he felt about missing out?

THOMPSON He never let me know about missing out. He did send me a very nasty letter accusing me of spreading a rumour that he was trying to tap sources of finance that might otherwise come my way. Well, that was simply not true and I just ignored it. After it was all over, he never ever got in touch with me. But I might tell you that my interest in Bob Greig's political career continued and when he put his hand up for preselection at the election that I didn't contest in 1993, I made it clear through one of the contacts, one of my friends who was on the preselection committee, that if Greg was to be preselected ahead of Day, I would run as an Independent, notwithstanding the fact that I had earlier said I wouldn't. But had Greig been the candidate for the 1993 election and not Day (in my view Day had earned the right to be the next member for Darling Range) then I would be a vigorous campaigner to re-win the seat as an Independent.

RJ And why do you think John Day had won that right?

THOMPSON Because John Day had served a very long time in the lay organisation. He'd been very effective but very quiet in his modus operandi, but he did a good job for the Liberal Party. He didn't do it, as a lot of people do, to get themselves in a position to win the seat. He did a job for the Liberal Party and was recognised by me as having done it, and I felt that Bob Greig was an interloper who'd simply flashed into politics because he saw an opportunity, and the moment that opportunity evaporated he disappeared. There was a subsequent time, too, when he tried to get the preselection for the federal seat of Pearce when Fred Chaney stepped down from the Senate and became the member for Pearce. I contacted several of my contacts - preselectors - who would have been there to encourage them to support Chaney.

RJ You won that election in 1989 and then you resigned from the Liberal Party in July that year and you became an Independent, according to the handbook, from September 1989, but I would have thought it was in fact from July.

THOMPSON No, it was from September.

RJ Okay, so what happens in the interim from July to September?

THOMPSON In the interim, what happened was that I went to Barry MacKinnon in confidence to tell him that I anticipated that I would not be a candidate for the '93 election and that I felt in those circumstances I should step down from the shadow ministry and I indicated that, on health grounds, I shouldn't continue in the shadow ministry. That was the reason why I left the shadow ministry in July; it was because I had made up my mind I wasn't going to be a candidate for the upcoming election, but I didn't want that announced because you never close a book in this game until you absolutely have to.

But I said to Barry that there were three issues I would like to pursue once I'd got out of the shadow ministry. One of them was I wanted to introduce a private member's bill to legislate for the principle of one vote, one value to be adopted for election of people to the Legislative Assembly. I wanted to amend the Mining Act, which was being used to ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON skirt the provisions of the extractive industry's process. The third one was I wanted to set up a select committee to look at the prospect of the downstream processing of our resources and the establishment of tidal power as a source of energy for that downstream processing. They were three things that I wanted to pursue. Barry gave me a commitment that I would be able to do that.

Richard Court, at the time, was the shadow Minister for Energy, and Richard made it clear to me that he didn't want to have any investigation into the prospect of tidal energy, and when I put to the party room that I'd pursue this interest of tidal energy, he opposed it and the party room decided not to support my proposal. I exercised my right as an individual member of the Liberal Party and I made an announcement there and then that, with or without their support, I would be moving as a private member. I did it pretty forcefully. Margaret McAleer, who was a very good supporter of mine, said to me as we walked out of the party room, "I think you could have finessed that a bit better" [laughs] because I was pretty blunt in my assertion that I would do it.

Well, then, of course, Richard was leader of the house for the Opposition and he would not allocate time for me to move this motion, until I got hold of Barry MacKinnon and gave him both barrels. And Barry said, 'Well, on this particular night, you will have an opportunity to move that," and so I spoke to about it.' It happened to be an annual dinner of an equestrian club of which I was a member. I think it was our wedding anniversary; it coincided with our wedding anniversary. It was held in Sawyers Valley. Margaret and I went to this dinner but came back to the Parliament in time for me to move my motion. It's the only speech Margaret's ever heard me make in the house and it was at the time when we'd had debates from the chamber [relayed] into a member's office where you could sit and listen to the speaker. So Margaret elected not to be in the Parliament; she elected to sit in my office and she's listening to the speech. As it happened, Bob Pearce came to me and said, "Richard has put other things in the way and", he said, "there's not going to be time for you to move the motion." Well, I stacked on a performance and Pearce saw there was an opportunity to have a bit of embarrassment on our side of the house so he said, "You can have 15 minutes."

Well, I used my 15 minutes, during which time I announced my resignation from the Liberal Party and I said of that he had all of the arrogance and other downsides of his old man [Sir Charles Court], but only half his brains, which tended to cause a bit of a flutter. Anyway, so that was the background to my resignation. It was clear that those things that MacKinnon had agreed that I'd have an opportunity to progress was withdrawn from me and I felt that that was as far as I was prepared to go.

The other thing is the Liberal Party, with the influence of [Richard] Court and MacKinnon, were prepared to side with any group in the community if they thought there was a prospect of getting that group's support. Now, it didn't happen while I was here, but you will recall, or people will recall, that the debate over the management of the forestry was raging and the Liberal Party got, as they should have been, right in behind the industry to support the program that had been established to enable the industry to proceed. But, of course, that was never acceptable to the greenies, and the greenies campaigned. And so the Liberal Party then decided that they would give some support to the greenies. Well, as Dave Brand says, "You try to please everyone and you please no-one", and that's exactly what occurred; they pleased no-one. They lost the foresters, because the Libs were showing some sympathy to the greenies, and they were never going to get the greenies anyway. That was the sort of thing that they were doing. They were going to curry favour with anyone.

1 At the time, Bob Pearce was the Leader of the House in the Legislative Assembly for the Labor government. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 6

Andrew Mensaros, who was one of the loyalest and hardest working members of the Liberal Party, came to me after I'd resigned and became an Independent and he said, "I'm thinking of heading your way because", he said, "this bunch simply have moved away from the fundamental tenets, policies and philosophies of the Liberal Party." Mensaros felt that strongly about it. Poor old Andrew died not very long later.

RJ So are you saying that that decision to resign from the Liberal Party was really made at that moment?

THOMPSON No, no, no. Well, I had been moving towards that because of the things that I've said about the Liberal Party had lost their way.

RJ Yes. You were unhappy, but the actual decision to resign from the Liberals, was that a spur of the moment, or would that have happened regardless?

THOMPSON It would have happened ultimately, but I'm a pretty volatile character. That was enough to push me over the edge, and I suppose, had there not been something like that to push me over the edge, I may never have, but I was certainly fed up with the Liberal Party.

RJ Why had you made your mind up so early that you were not going to contest 1993?

THOMPSON Well, because I'd seen it all before. I'd been here for quite a while and I had lost the spark, and I think you've got to have a fire in your belly but my fire had gone out. It got rekindled when I became an Independent, particularly after we got to the situation where Independents held the balance of power in the Legislative Assembly, a very rare situation. Those last few months of my existence here were really the highlight of my parliamentary career because I was an Independent, and I was then joined by others: Elizabeth Constable. I had the pleasure of inducting Elizabeth into the chamber. Elizabeth was Independent. Then the Labor Party lost three of theirs who became Independents: Larry Graham, Ian Alexander, Gavan Troy, , Frank Donovan, all of those people left the Labor Party. Not all of them stayed in the Parliament but Alexander and Donovan and Buchanan did and Elizabeth was there.

Pam Buchanan became quite ill and she didn't participate in the Parliament for quite some time before she actually died. She actually confided in me as to what she should do about her position, suggesting that she should resign. I counselled her against that. I said, "You know, you shouldn't do that. You may recover; you don't know." Although I think she did. I said, "I think you should retain your membership of the Parliament." I got a very nice letter from her family after she died thanking me for my counsel.

But we were in a unique position of influencing things and it was a really invigorating time in the Parliament. Now, my decision to not contest the 1993 election was because I knew that there would be a swing towards the Liberal Party and that there would be a new government, that Independents would not have the clout, and I just didn't want to be there having no real push. The only thing that would have pushed me to contest the election after I said I would not would have been had Greig been a candidate.

RJ Just to go back a little, the electorate had.... a majority had voted for a Liberal candidate. Did you get any flak from the electorate over your decision?

THOMPSON No, no I didn't. I tell you, as a guide to what my electorate thought about me once I became an Independent, each year, I think, for 15 years on the first Sunday of ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 7

December my family and my friends, with some card-carrying members of the Liberal Party, not a lot, used to run a champagne breakfast to raise funds for my election campaign. We did it every year, so we always had money put aside for an upcoming election. I resigned in the September and we had the champagne breakfast on the first Sunday in December, as did the Liberal Party. They decided it was their champagne breakfast. They said they'd have one and they held it at the Kalamunda Hotel. In previous champagne breakfasts, the best attendance we had had been 400. December 1989 we served over 600 breakfasts. We had to stop selling tickets to the show. Over 600 breakfasts. I had an influx of letters and other forms of communication from people within my electorate and from outside my electorate in support of me.

Now, I'd have won that election hands down, so anyone who suggests I left the Parliament because there was a chance I was not going to win does not know what they're talking about. You need to have a look at what has occurred with Phillip Pendal, with Elizabeth Constable. Credible Independents will win seats in Parliament. [Janet] Woollard. Credible people with a background of community involvement will win seats as Independents, unless, of course, it's an absolutely overwhelming impossibility. But, in my case, I'd have walked in.

RJ But why were you having a champagne breakfast in December 1989 to raise funds for an election that you were not going to contest?

THOMPSON I hadn't made my mind up that I wouldn't contest the election at that point.

RJ But you had told Barry MacKinnon you would not be.

THOMPSON I said, "I may not be."

RJ I thought you said, "I will not be."

THOMPSON No, no; I said, "I may not be" and I wasn't going to make an announcement about it until such time as we got further down the track. Because as I said to you before, you don't say never until it is never. And so that's the reason why. I was always going to be in a position where I could contest an election and was.

RJ Right. We'll just re-evaluate. [Looks at notes.] You've really answered that.

I was going to remind you of a quote in The West that you made in September '89, that as an Independent you wanted more freedom to debate matters as an ordinary member of Parliament.' But from what you've said you really did feel.... I was going to say does an Independent really have much influence on legislation? I know you have said that the Independents were strong, but were you actually able to influence legislation in your view in that time?

THOMPSON As an Independent?

RJ Yes.

THOMPSON Alone without the other Independents, no, I was not able to influence legislation. But I was able to put before the Parliament and the community issues that I thought ought to be considered, like the tidal power, like the push for downstream processing of our resources.

1 West Australian, 29 September 1989. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON

I reckon it's an absolute disgrace, 40 years after the first bit of iron ore was shipped away from here, we are no further down the track of downstream processing. When you look at the prodigious amounts of minerals going out of the Pilbara and other parts of the state, and now the prodigious amounts of energy that are going out, and we're not capitalising on it. We're allowing other countries of the world to capitalise on that. We'll never populate the north of this state whilst we're sending our raw materials away. I know that populating the north of the state in years gone by would not have been a comfortable existence for a lot of people, but with air conditioning, with all of the modern facilities that are now available to communities no matter where you are in Australia, then there is no justification for not trying to build the populations up. This fly in/fly out' arrangement for people servicing industries in the remote part of Australia I think is a stupid policy. What you're doing is creating bigger and bigger cities on the coast requiring prodigious amounts of money to service them and at the same time allowing populations to wither in other parts of the state.

RJ Sitting here listening to this, I could be listening to Sir Charles Court. How much were you influenced by him?

THOMPSON I was very influenced by Sir Charles Court as a minister for industrial development. The statue that they will build to Sir Charles Court as far as I'm concerned should go that far as to recognise the contribution he made as the Minister for Industrial

Relations -

RJ Development.

THOMPSON For Industrial Development. He did a brilliant job during that period, although he ruffled a lot of feathers, including people on his own side of politics; and the Country Party were not always happy with him. Indeed, when he became the Premier and formed coalition with the Country Party, it was a very, very unsteady relationship.

RJ You have covered this in a previous interview.

THOMPSON Yes, based on what....

RJ Yes.

THOMPSON But as far as Sir Charles Court is concerned, I think he did a brilliant job as Minister for Industrial Development. As a Premier I reckon he was a failure. He caused ferment in the community that wasn't necessary. He brought dishonour to the party and to the Parliament in using it in the way that he did. But I did really admire what he did in terms of the development. I think there were some chinks in the armour. I think the original contracts that were entered into for the sale of iron ore were structured very heavily in favour of the companies. I don't think the state got as much out of it as they could have, should have. And to some extent I think that's still reflected in the iron ore pricing now.... well, not so much the pricing, but the level of royalty. I think we could have got a better deal out of it than we actually did.

RJ But would they [the iron ore companies] then have paid for the towns and the railways and the ports?

THOMPSON I think they would have. I am sure they would have. I reckon we just sold out a little bit too cheaply, and of course that is a view that's held by a lot of people, most of them from the other side of politics. But still, that's the way it goes. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 9

RJ Once you became an Independent, what did you notice most about the change in how you were treated in the Parliament? Was there any change in that way? Was there any change in the way you were treated by the Opposition?

THOMPSON Well, all that occurred was that those who were my friends when I was in the party continued to be my friends. Those who were my opponents felt they had a justification for being an opponent [interruption with someone walking into the room]. Those who were not my supporters felt they had a justification for holding the position they did. As far as the government members were concerned, their attitude to me didn't change and they didn't embarrass me by falling all over me. It was pretty well the status quo as far as they were concerned.

But there was one incident. I continued to eat at the same table as I had always eaten, and on one particular occasion I went in and sat down at the dining room table. There were a number of members of the Liberal Party sitting around, and I sat down and one member got up and walked away. I didn't take any notice of it, didn't even think about it, and another of the members at the table said, "Oh, where are you going?", and he said, "I don't think Ian should be eating here", to which I replied in robust terms. [chuckles]

RJ And what did you reply?

THOMPSON And continued to eat there. Now he's a friend, so it's gone full circle.

RJ I think we understand [chuckles]. Before the 1989 election, Peter Dowding had taken over as Premier in February 1988 when Brian Burke and resigned together. What did you think of that, of Brian Burke resigning?

THOMPSON I was amazed that Brian Burke resigned because he was still a very effective Premier, a very effective leader, and so I was quite surprised that he resigned. I think I was more surprised that Mal Bryce went at the same time. But clearly he must have got the nod that he wasn't going to get the top job, and so I think he elected to go. But I really don't have much of a comment to make on that.

RJ And do you know that that was what was being stated: that Bryce would not become Premier?

THOMPSON I hadn't heard that, but I assumed [from] the fact that he went that he wasn't going to get the job.

RJ Would he have made a better Premier then Peter Dowding? Would Mal Bryce have made a better Premier than Peter Dowding?

THOMPSON I really don't know that. I don't know that he would have. No, I really don't feel competent to comment on that.

RJ Fair enough. What was your assessment of Dowding as Premier and the way he operated in Parliament?

THOMPSON I think Peter Dowding was a very good parliamentary performer and I think that he was an effective Premier. I must say that I've been a fan of Peter Dowding for a long time. I first met Peter when I was campaigning for the federal seat of Moore in 1969. At that point Peter lived in Kalamunda with his wife, Candy, and they had two children. He was a councillor on the Shire of Kalamunda, so I knew of his community-minded approach to things. So we were friends from that way back. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 10

I am one of the few people who have known all of Peter's wives [chuckles]. Candy, of course, was his first wife and I still see Candy from time to time in town. Jill was his second wife; she was the Aboriginal person, and I did have some contact with her. Then he married Barbro about the time that he became Premier, and I was quite friendly with Barbro. Then he didn't marry but lived with Janine Taylor. She by that time called herself Jolly Read. And then ultimately he's married this other lady, whom I've only met a couple of times. Margaret and I (I'm a shadow minister) were present at Peter Dowding's marriage to Barbro. It was held up in the grounds of the National Trust and, of course, the press homed right in on me being a Liberal at Peter Dowding's wedding. There were people in the Liberal party baying for my blood; they were wanting me to be stripped of my membership because I had dared to associate with Peter Dowding, which I found a bit amusing.

RJ I'd use the word "pathetic" myself! [laughter] And what about how Dowding operated in Parliament?

THOMPSON He was a very effective parliamentary performer, and I think a very effective Premier. I didn't necessarily agree with the thrust of some of the things that he was initiating, but from his side of politics I think he would have been recognised as having done a good job.

RJ Of course things, by then, were starting to come out about some of the things that had gone on during the Burke era, which obviously came out in more detail later under the WA Inc Royal Commission. In our previous interview, you referred to being a personal friend of Laurie Connell, and you were critical of the Liberal Party's attitude to the support given for Rothwells bank.' In light of what came out in the royal commission, do you still feel the same way both about Laurie Connell and what was done about Rothwells bank; the bailing out of Rothwells bank, really?

THOMPSON I think earlier in the interview I outlined how my friendship with Laurie Connell occurred. Laurie's wife, Elizabeth, was the daughter of Frank Willmott, and Frank was a longstanding Liberal member of the Legislative Council. He was a mentor to me when I came in, and he continued to be a member for some years after I came here. And so I had met Laurie and Elizabeth, and then when Laurie became involved in equestrian sport, I was very much involved in equestrian sport. He and I were both on the committee of the state branch of the Equestrian Federation, and we represented our branch at interstate meetings.

RJ And you did cover this before.

THOMPSON Yes. So that was my background to Laurie's involvement. I was not ever in a position where I could have influenced whether or not the government bailed out Rothwells. But the fact is that because of the circumstances that prevailed, there were many members in the Liberal Party who supported the bailout of Rothwells, including Barry MacKinnon, up to the point when Hassell and Court became involved. And it was after that that the Liberal Party backed away from the support of the bailout of Rothwells.

RJ Well it didn't all come out at first, either, did it? It took time to realise the extent of Rothwells' debt et cetera?

1 Ian Thompson interviewed by Ronda Jamieson for the Parliamentary History Project, 1987, transcript pp. 342-343. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 11

THOMPSON Oh yes; yes, it did. You see, you look at what's going on now federally. Because of the global financial crisis, the government is bailing out business left and right, not to save the businesses per se, but to prevent financial chaos and people being hurt. That was the reason why Burke undertook to bail out Rothwells, because institutions like the Catholic Church, many local authorities and many ordinary individuals in the community had money in Rothwells bank. Burke put it to MacKinnon that, "With your support, we will bail out Rothwells", for the reason of protecting investors, not to protect Laurie Connell.

So MacKinnon agreed to that, but subsequently withdrew his support for it. Now to that extent, I supported the bailing out of Rothwells, just as I supported the bailing out of the Teachers Credit Society and as I supported the bailing out, in Charles Court's time, of Bunbury Foods; not to help the Bunbury Foods directors or their shareholders, but to protect the farmers who were clients of Bunbury Foods. And the same with Teachers Credit; to protect the investments of ordinary teachers and others who had money in Teachers Credit Society. So I don't regret ever giving my support to those things.

In the ultimate, some of them proved to be a disaster, but my dad taught me a valuable lesson, not knowingly. He always regretted.... he was always looking over his shoulders and regretting he hadn't done this in his earlier life, hadn't done that. My approach has always been you take all the evidence you possibly can on an issue, be slow to give a commitment, but when you give a commitment, you hang into it, and you don't hang about crying if you happen to have made a mistake; if something had gone the other way. And that's been my approach. If I'd have been armed with all of what I know now, some of the things I wouldn't have done. But I'm not saying that; I'm not regretting anything in that respect, because, on the evidence that there was there, there was justification for these things occurring.

RJ You had Carmen Lawrence take over as Premier in February 1990, and I wondered what you thought of that takeover.

THOMPSON I think Carmen Lawrence was one of the most intelligent and capable people who performed in the Parliament whilst I was there. I think that, to a great extent, she was a fairly.... she was a good Premier, except that she endeavoured to rewrite history on a few occasions, which got her into trouble.

RJ Such as? An example?

THOMPSON Well, Western Women. I can't think of any others, really, but she seemed to put an interpretation on events that weren't actually reflected, or weren't supported by the facts. I think the calling of the Royal Commission, I think she was forced into calling a royal commission, but I've got to say that when you look at the Royal Commission, it cost $40 million or more, and the purpose of the Royal Commission was to find out where all of this government money had gone, where, you know, the black holes were that had gobbled up this money. When you look at the outcome of the Royal Commission, no-one was ever charged with acting improperly in the deals that saw the loss of a lot of government money. If you start locking up governments and ministers of the Crown because they've made wrong decisions, you'd have them all in jail. It is true that, arising out of the Royal Commission, [Brian] Burke went to jail, [David] Parker went to jail, [Ray] O'Connor went to jail, [but] none of them for these massive amounts of money that had gone down the hole. Parker went to jail because he had stolen from the Labor Party, O'Connor went to jail because he stole from the Liberal Party, and Burkie went to jail because of fiddling his travel allowance. I think, actually, Parker's conviction was ultimately quashed; I'm not sure. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 12

RJ It was. No, it was; you're right.

THOMPSON So no-one ever went to jail for the mass of things that the Royal Commission was set up for. These royal commissions are absolutely diabolical in terms of tarnishing the reputations of people in the community. You can get up there, under privilege, and say whatever you like and there are no ramifications. That's why people should be very, very, very careful about setting up royal commissions. You've got to have a pretty fair idea of what the outcome is going to be before you do, and I don't think Carmen knew what the outcome was going to be of the royal commission she instituted.

RJ I don't think anyone did. There was a suggestion that supply should be blocked in 1990. You weren't part of the Liberal Party, but what do you think about blocking of supply?

THOMPSON Well, I think of an earlier event where it was more realistic. There was no way that supply could be blocked in the Legislative Assembly in 1990 because the Liberals didn't have the numbers, and I'm not sure what the numbers were in the Legislative Council, but I would be very, very..., knowing the conservative nature of people in the Legislative Council, [I don't know] whether they'd have ever gone along with the blocking of supply. But there was an earlier occasion when there was a credible suggestion made that supply should be blocked in the upper house, and that was soon after Sir Charles became Premier.

RJ And you've covered this.

THOMPSON Yes.

RJ Yes; you've covered this in our previous interview, because that was in that time, remembering you were interviewed in 1987.

THOMPSON Yes.

RJ How did you feel.... [what was] your assessment of Carmen Lawrence when it came to being Premier and the way she operated in Parliament? You've commented on Peter Dowding.

THOMPSON Oh, I think Carmen was an effective parliamentary performer. I think she demonstrated a degree of intellect and strength and I think she did a good job. I really don't have much more to say about that.

RJ Yes; fair enough. In some ways you've already answered at least some parts of this question, but I wondered what you thought about that WA Inc Royal Commission and its findings. I know you've just said all of that about, you know, the real problems weren't really identified or anything done about them, but what did you think overall? - because I think everyone was a bit shocked at some of the information that came out in that process.

THOMPSON I think the shocking information that came out was really not going to result in any sort of prosecutions or any sort of things happening. As I said earlier on, I think that royal commissions result in all sorts of information, shocking information, coming out, but then nothing comes of it. If you want to have a sideshow, well then, have a royal commission. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 13

RJ While you were an Independent, you continued to be involved in committees of the Parliament.

THOMPSON Yes.

RJ You were the chairman of the Select Committee on Effluent Disposal for the metro area in 1988; Energy and Resources '89 to '90, which you've already identified as an interest of yours; Energy and Processing of Resources '89 to '91; and the Official Corruption Commission, and there were recommendations made out of the work of that commission in September 1992. Anything out of that role that you had, the work that you did, that you would like to comment on?

THOMPSON In the case of the Effluent Disposal Royal Commission, I think that that committee had an effect in that now other systems of handling human effluent have been permitted. Up until that point, there was only one system that was legal, and that was the use of septic tanks. In many cases, septic tanks are still used, and it's appropriate, but given that the problem with the use of septic tanks was not just dealing with getting rid of the pathogens, it wasn't getting rid of the nutrient that was coming from it. It was the nutrient, and still continues to be the nutrient, that is getting into our groundwater and into our rivers that is causing the environmental problem. The new systems that are now in existence (biocycle is one of the trade names that is available; there are several others) are a more complete system in that they get rid of the nutrient from the discharge from household waste. There are more and more of those going in, and I notice that some local authorities are now making it absolutely mandatory in some areas that they have those systems installed. So I feel quite satisfied that my initiative in that area has had a positive contribution to control of effluent discharge.

RJ Good. I'll just make a little correction. You referred to it being a royal commission; it was of course a select committee.

THOMPSON Select Committee, yes. I beg your pardon.

RJ Well you'd just been talking about royal commissions, so that's understandable.

THOMPSON It was a select committee; yes.

RJ You've already commented on the leadership of Bill Hassell and Barry MacKinnon in your previous interview, and you were involved in MacKinnon replacing Hassell as the Leader of the Liberal Party in November 1986. With your experience when you came back into the Parliament under Barry MacKinnon's leadership of the opposition, were you right in supporting him to replace Hassell?

THOMPSON I think I've commented earlier that I thought that Sir Charles had done Bill Hassell a disservice by promoting him as early as he did to the ministry and charging him with the responsibility of handling very controversial bits of legislation like 54B of the Police Act, like the Noonkanbah convoy, or the Noonkanbah debacle, and Bill Hassell carried a lot of baggage of that. When he became the leader he was a fairly unpopular person, and I think being replaced by Barry MacKinnon distanced the party from those issues. I think to that extent it was a good move, although I've got to say that there wasn't a lot of strength in Barry as a leader.

RJ In what way? ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 14

THOMPSON I don't think he commanded the same sort of respect as previous leaders of the party. I think, on the one hand, Sir Charles had absolute dominance; and on the other hand you've got Barry, who was a bit wishy-washy. Barry MacKinnon's demise was brought about by a blue that went on between Phil Pendal and Clive Griffiths. Clive and Pendal fell out over something (I don't know what it was) but Griffiths was very much involved in putting a fire under Barry MacKinnon and seeing Richard Court become the leader. I think had it not been for that situation, it would have been a lot longer before Richard Court would have become the leader. I think Barry could have hung on, but he crossed Clive. As I said to Clive just recently, "Griffiths, if your body were to wash up on Cottesloe Beach tomorrow, the coppers would spend two years interviewing the suspects." [chuckles] I've told him that, and I reminded him of that yesterday when I was talking to him. He said, "I tell people that." He said, "You're my mate, and this is what you said about me."

RJ Now you've already given your assessment of Richard Court when you referred to him having some of the....

THOMPSON Well, that reference was as far as his involvement in opposition. I've got to say that I think Richard Court did a good job as a Premier. I think Richard proved to be an effective Premier. He didn't rise to the heights of his dad, but I do think that he did a good job as Premier, and to that extent I'm prepared to concede that perhaps I was a bit harsh on him with my comments. [chuckles]

RJ Noted. Before we get on to your decision not to contest the 1993 election, is there anything I've missed?

THOMPSON Not that I can think of, no.

RJ There is always the opportunity to add something if, when you see the transcript, you feel that way.

THOMPSON Were you going to ask about Cohn Barnett?

RJ Yes.

THOMPSON You want to do that later?

RJ Yes.

THOMPSON You'll do it later?

RJ Yes.

THOMPSON Okay; fine.

RJ I've got it....

THOMPSON Okay. I wasn't sure; I thought there was somewhere there.

RJ No; because it happened afterwards, I was leaving that to

THOMPSON Chronological, yes. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 15

RJ Well, no, it is not necessarily, but it is just that that was to be the overview.

THOMPSON Okay.

RJ You had said right back in 1989 you were already thinking you were not going to contest 1993. When it came to the crunch, when was the firm decision made, and why? Because you've said that at that December 1989 breakfast you were still....

THOMPSON Yes, the firm decision would have been.... I can't absolutely pinpoint it. But what happened when I stepped down from the Liberal Party, I needed to prepare for an election, and I told you of the champagne breakfast. We had other fundraising things that we were doing, and I asked three of my very good supporters, Peter Falconer, Hugh Black, John Giumelli, and there was another, Ron Wilson, all of whom had been prime movers in branches of the Liberal Party, who had come out publicly in support of me as an Independent. We set up a trust, a properly registered trust, so that the funds we raised could be properly held for that purpose, and of course in that trust document there had to be provision for the winding up of the trust. When I decided that I wasn't going to contest, the trust distributed that money to several organisations within my electorate. So I could tell from the date of the winding up of the trust as to when I actually made that decision, but it would have been a good 12 months before I left the Parliament.

RJ And why?

THOMPSON Because I could see

RJ I just identify that you were around about 58 at that time, so it was not as if you were too old.

THOMPSON No, no, no. It was because I had been here for over 20 years. It was because I didn't relish sitting hours and hours in the Parliament. But in the period that we were then in, I was enjoying the Parliament, because we had some role to play. But I realised that there was going to be a change of government because of the stuff that came out of the Royal Commission and because of the odour that was around the Labor Party, that there would be a change of government and that there would be a big majority for the Liberal Party. There would be no place for me to have an influence, and I just couldn't see any point. Margaret is still crooked on me that I didn't contest that election, but she was looking at it from the point of view of some personal satisfaction for me, but I couldn't see that I could be of value to my constituents in those circumstances. So I took the decision I wouldn't contest it, and I haven't regretted that decision.

RJ So you've just answered my question about how your wife felt; how did your daughters feel?

THOMPSON Look, I think the girls were pretty laid-back about all of my involvement in politics; I don't think they really would have had a strong opinion one way or another. Although I must say that Neta, when we had this champagne breakfast in '89.... I meant to bring the book down to show you.... Neta produced this book with a series of photographs in it. On the front is me thumbing my nose to the Liberal Party. She's got all of this stuff and some of it is quite comical. But the girls would have supported whatever I did; whatever.

RJ Okay, then let's have those rounding-off questions about the time that you were in Parliament. What do you rate as your greatest achievement in those 20-odd years? ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 16

THOMPSON The highlight of my parliamentary career was the five-odd years that I was the Speaker of the Parliament. I believe that I made a positive contribution; I believe that I changed things for the better; I believe that I earned the respect of the Parliament. I cherish the fact that even now - and it's years and years since I left that office - people still remember I was the Speaker. There have been dozens and dozens of ministers since that time, and I don't think many of them would ever be recognised or remembered, but I am remembered, and I think I did an effective job and I think that I made a positive contribution.

RJ Now, you've just said something interesting, because you did want to be a minister.

THOMPSON Mm.

RJ Even though you had the honour of being the Speaker, you really did want to be a minister. You've just said that people remember you for being a Speaker, when they don't remember a whole lot of people who were ministers.

THOMPSON Mm, mm.

RJ Do you think you could have made more of an impression as a minister? Would they still remember you?

THOMPSON Well they probably would, but not for good reasons. [laughter] But I think anyone who goes into Parliament must have an aspiration of getting to the top, otherwise they wouldn't be there, and I did have. I did have invitations to join the ministry; the first was when Sir Charles invited me to be in the ministry, along with June Craig and Ian Medcalf, to fill the vacancy that had been made by [Norman] Baxter, [Matt] Stephens and [Ray] McPharlin (Country Party guys) walking out of the ministry in 1975. Margaret, to this day, still hates Peter Jones and Dick Old because they elected to pick up those portfolios at that particular time.

The second time that I was invited to be in the ministry was when Ray O'Connor asked me to relinquish the role of Speaker and become an honorary minister because they weren't prepared to make a substantive appointment because of some doubt.

RJ You have covered this, yes.

THOMPSON Yes. So I'd had those invitations. So I had invitations [to be a minister] but they didn't materialise. But, yes, one must have an aspiration to be a minister of the Crown if you go into Parliament, I think; otherwise you shouldn't be there. Whether I'd have made a better contribution there than I did as a Speaker (in my humble opinion I made a contribution as Speaker), I don't know whether I would have been as effective. But the fact is that I was the Speaker; I enjoyed it; and I think I made a positive contribution.

RJ Great. What, if any, do you rate as your failures as a member of Parliament?

THOMPSON I suppose there are many, but I don't go looking for them. [chuckles]

RJ Fair enough. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 17

THOMPSON I'D leave it for bystanders to make their judgements on that. [chuckles]

RJ And if you could have your time over, is there anything you would do differently?

THOMPSON I can't think of anything, Ronda, but I dare say, you know, that there could have been areas where I could have done things differently. But as I've said to you earlier on, I weigh up the situation; I make a decision; I go forward; I don't look back.

RJ Cohn Barnett won Cottesloe in 1990.

THOMPSON Mm.

RJ And obviously you were still in the house at that time.

THOMPSON Mm.

RJ In your time associated with him, what is your assessment of Cohn Barnett?

THOMPSON Cohn and I aren't friends; that's not because of anything that I've initiated. I think that he came in at a time when I was kicking over the traces a bit, and I don't think he liked that. He was Minister for Education at one point and my daughter won an award that was presented to her here. Neta made the point to him that she was my daughter, and he said to her, 'Well, he can't be all bad." [laughs] But I've got to say that I absolutely was thrilled when he changed his mind about retiring and decided to contest the seat, because I felt for a very, very tong time, during that period when you had the Matt Birneys and you had the Paul Omodeis, that Barnett was intellectually the best they had and he should have been the leader. I'll never understand why there was any sort of doubt about that in the minds of the members of the parliamentary Liberal Party. Clearly he was head and shoulders above the others in terms of intellect, in terms of sincerity, in terms of his work ethic, and I think he's doing a brilliant job as the Premier.

RJ Well that saves me asking you the next question. What do you think of Troy Buswell as his deputy?

THOMPSON I think Troy is a knockabout guy who chose to be a bit flippant on a couple of occasions and he's worn the price for that. But, you know, there but for the grace of God go all of us, and so he was just a bit unlucky. But I think his standing down was the right thing to do

RJ You did say to me in our earlier interview sessions that your first attempt at politics - and you've said it again today - was to win a federal seat in 1969. And to quote you, "I still believe that the main area of interest as far as politics in Australia is concerned is in the federal sphere. It will increasingly become more important."' Reminding you that you said that in 1987, how do you view that statement today?

THOMPSON No change in my attitude. I just think that it is a nonsense for a country of 20 million people to have fragmented administration and fragmented jurisdictions when a far more efficient system could be in place. Only yesterday I heard that the Gorgon deal had been (no, I don't know whether it was Gorgon or another one) given the nod by the

1 Ian Thompson interviewed by Ronda Jamieson for the Parliamentary History Project, 1987, p. 22. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 18 state Minister for Environment, but now we have to wait for the federal Minister for Environment to say yea or nay. Why is there a need for the duplication? That's my point. Look at the money that is being spent by the Commonwealth Government now as a means of stimulating the economy. They are not giving the money to the states to spend; they're nominating which schools will get money and even which projects in schools will get money. On the 7.30 Report, I think it was last night....

RJ It was.

THOMPSON ....it was highlighted that the federal government had decided to knock down four classrooms to replace it with four classrooms at a school where the administration of the school, including the P & C, don't want that; they want something else.

RJ That one was the night before; I thought you were talking about the Rudd one.

THOMPSON It is just a nonsense that you have a state education department with a federal government saying how much money you can have for it, and here are the strings that we attach to that. Now, I think it would be far, far better to have one administration. I think more power could be given to local authority, but not 139 local authorities in this state; there should be substantially fewer than those. The current government is on the right track in reducing the number of those. Look at the administrative costs of those; look at the salaries that are paid to people, all of that. We've got to reform.

RJ But what are you saying, that we should have a federal Parliament and not state Parliament?

THOMPSON We should have a federal Parliament and not state Parliaments.

RJ Okay; and strengthen local government?

THOMPSON And strengthen local government.

RJ You also said earlier that you were not comfortable with doorknocking when you first campaigned, but you did it. Your actual words were: "I become disillusioned when I go doorknocking when I come to understand how little people know about politics and about Parliament."' Did you see any signs of change in that up to the time you finished?

THOMPSON No, I hadn't, but I think there now is a far greater awareness in the community of politics, but not to the extent that you could say that the majority of people in the community are educated in the way that the political system works, or a parliamentary system works. There is a long way to go; a long way to go there.

RJ You were very keen to be a member of Parliament.2 At the end of your parliamentary career, what do you think now of that desperation; was it the right choice to make?

Ian Thompson interviewed by Ronda Jamieson for the Parliamentary History Project, 1987, transcript p. 25. 2 Ibid, pp. 30-31. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 19

THOMPSON I led a charmed life. I was fortunate to be in the right place at the right time, and I had an opportunity. I believe that I made a fair fist of being a member of Parliament, and I enjoyed my time here. I enjoyed.... I think that I.... part of the reason why I enjoyed it was because I did the things that I thought should be done at the time they should be done. I didn't fear losing my seat or losing my endorsement. I always (I think I've told you this before) made certain that my electrical licence was up to date, in order that I had a fallback position. That licence is still up to date.

RJ Interesting. You also said in 1987: "The Legislative Council will cease to exist in a very short time. Indeed, my prediction is that it will disappear during the period of my parliamentary service."'

THOMPSON Wrong and right.

RJ I don't need to point out to you that that didn't actually happen. [chuckles]

THOMPSON Yes.

RJ But are you still of that same view? I throw into that mix that Queensland is the one state without a Legislative Council, and it hasn't had one for years; there is now talk of trying to reinstitute one.

THOMPSON I was wrong in my prediction that the Legislative Council would disappear in my parliamentary lifetime. It is still a dinosaur that should go. The thing that has changed a bit is that there has been some reform there. At the time I made my predictions about its demise, was at a time towards the end of a 100-year period of absolute dominance of the Legislative Council by one side of politics. I believe that there is clear evidence that for a high percentage of that time it has been pretty well moribund. The reforms that have occurred since I've left the Parliament have made it a more effective unit. I think that probably will stave off the death knell of the place for some time to come.

RJ You also said in 1987:

The best thing about being a politician/parliamentarian for me has been influencing things in a way that's going to make this place a better State and there have been a number of occasions when I've been involved in influencing decisions which I think benefit the society. You feel good then, you feel as though you've achieved something.... I think just being a part of a Parliament at a time when there has been dynamic growth in our society and knowing that I've played a part in it, that is rewarding to me.2

With that being said in '87, with what happened in the next six years, would that still be your assessment?

THOMPSON Oh, yes. Yes; it would be my assessment. I think that's still valid.

RJ Even though that was spent in opposition for that whole time?

THOMPSON Yes, well, you know, that's part of the deal. You've got to ... you know, you win some, you lose some.

1 Ibid, p. 138. 2 Ibid, p.361. ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 20

RJ Just to cover briefly, after you left Parliament, what did you do with yourself?

THOMPSON I spent quite a bit of time giving our children assistance to establish their homes. We renovated a house for Kelsey in Lesmurdie; I renovated a house for Neta in Embleton; I did one (not a comprehensive job) for Lexie on a place she bought in Bassendean; and I did a similar thing for Inger when she and her husband Graham bought an ex-war service home in Rivervale.

When my mum died (she died in 1995) I was aware that she was going to leave me some money. I told her that I would use that money to build a holiday house that I would hope would stay in the family forever in order that her children and grandchildren would have an opportunity to have a place. So I spent four years building a house at Guilderton, at the mouth of the Moore River. I'm very proud of that house; I've made a really good job of it. It is proving to be a great asset for the family. Pretty well every weekend there is someone up there. We go up regularly. I've taken up lawn bowls and I'm a member of the club at Guilderton and I play in the pennant competition for Guilderton. During the summer, Margaret and I go up, generally on a Friday night, and we stay until either Sunday night or Monday and [then] come back. The kids go up there regularly at school holidays. They have to book then; I've got a diary at home, so they have to ... but then I have to adjudicate every now and then as to whether or not they can hog as much time as they have. But that has been a real joy to me, to see that there.

I've always been one who has done things with my hands and I've enjoyed that, although we've just recently built two houses in Kalamunda. We sold our family home in Bickley about two and a half years ago. To get it ready to sell, we spent a lot of money on it: we had the roof maintained; put new gutters on; had the driveway seal fixed; put in a synthetic cover on the tennis court, which was a grass court during the time that we lived there; and re-lined the swimming pool with fibreglass. We spent a whole lot of money [on it] and then discounted the price and sold it to my daughter. [laughs] So Neta and Hamish and her two kids live there.

We've built two houses near the centre of Kalamunda: one for Kelsey, our third eldest daughter; and the other for us. The background to that is that Kelsey, several years ago, bought a duplex that was on a fairly big block. We bought the adjoining duplex and lived in it for a temporary home for a couple of years while we subdivided the land and we built two homes: one on the front for Kelsey and one on the back for us. Kelsey needs our support because her husband did a runner on her and left her with a little girl (Tamzin is now 10) and so we are called upon to provide assistance to her on a fairly regular basis. It's easier to do it that way than it would be if we'd have been living remote, although at times it is a bit of a trial, but anyway.

RJ Do you enjoy being a grandfather?

THOMPSON Absolutely; yes. I've got seven grandkids. Three of the girls had two children, and Kelsey has just the one. I think that might be the end of the line; I can't see any enthusiasm to rush in to have more, but they are all growing up. We don't see a lot of Inger because she's living in Queensland. Her husband has a very prominent position with Rio Tinto and they are in Queensland. We go over periodically to see them. They have got two little boys: little buggers, they are, but people bring kids up differently these days to the way we did.

RJ Well, I thank you very much for your time. Is there anything you want to add yourself? ORAL HISTORY THOMPSON 21

THOMPSON No, I can't think of anything else, Ronda; I think that we've covered the stuff that needed to be covered.

RJ That needs to be done.

THOMPSON Yes

RJ Thank you very much.

END OF INTERVIEW