Thursday Volume 553 22 November 2012 No. 73

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 22 November 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 695 22 NOVEMBER 2012 696

Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): Does my House of Commons right hon. Friend agree that we need to study Lord Justice Leveson’s recommendations very carefully, but that any decision affecting the freedom of the press is so Thursday 22 November 2012 important that it should be made only by Parliament? Does she accept that there is now almost total agreement The House met at half-past Nine o’clock that we need a new, independent regulator with tough powers, but that the decision on whether there should be any legislative back-up involving statute is of such PRAYERS huge importance that we need to be absolutely certain that there is no alternative before proceeding down that route? [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right to talk about the importance of the freedom of the press, but we must also ensure that there is robust and full redress for victims. Those are the things that we must balance, and Oral Answers to Questions that is why I think that it would be entirely appropriate for us to have discussions, whether in the Chamber or elsewhere in the House. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): I agree with Members who have said that this issue is of enormous importance. Like me, the Secretary of State The Secretary of State for Culture Olympics, Media had an opportunity to meet victims of phone hacking and Sport was asked— and press intrusion yesterday. The hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) Leveson Report was absolutely right to say that this is a matter for the House. In that context, may I ask the Secretary of State 1. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): whether she intends to make a statement to the House When she expects the Leveson report to be published. on the day on which the Leveson report is published, [129104] and also whether she will ensure that the Government provide an early opportunity for the House to debate it? The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport I have already asked for cross-party Front-Bench talks, (Maria Miller): I expect Lord Justice Leveson to deliver but this is also a matter of great interest and importance his report by the end of the month. The inquiry team for Back Benchers in all parts of the House. will make an announcement about specific times later this morning. Maria Miller: I thank the right hon. and learned Lady for the opportunity to clarify the position. She Mr Buckland: If the Leveson inquiry recommends an and I have already had discussions about this very issue. end to the current system of press regulation, will the I hope that we will continue to have such discussions, Government rise to the challenge and help to create a and that they can involve the other parties as well. My system that will quickly gain the trust of the public? right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will be able to make things clearer in his business statement later Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right to identify today. trust as an overwhelming prerequisite for any solution Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The to our problems involving the press. Certainly the status Secretary of State will recall that the Leveson inquiry quo is not an option. The principles that will drive any started as a result of the phone hacking scandal. Is she solution are the need for an independent regulator, the aware of recent evidence that journalists were using need for tough regulation, and the need to do everything information like a trading commodity, one of them possible to preserve free speech. picking up the hack and then passing it to another to disguise the source of the hacking? Will Leveson cover Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Given that both the that aspect? Secretary of State and the Prime Minister, who set up the inquiry, have stressed time and again the importance Maria Miller: Obviously Lord Leveson has been looking of giving Lord Leveson space in which to report and at this issue in an enormous amount of detail, and not prejudging the outcome, how helpful is it for colleagues criminal investigations are also in progress. I am sure of the Prime Minister, in the Cabinet and elsewhere, to that the specific issue raised by the hon. Gentleman, make repeated comments in an attempt to undermine and indeed many other issues relating to the prevalence the report in advance? of phone hacking, will be dealt with in Lord Leveson’s inquiry report, which, as I have said, will be available Maria Miller: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman very shortly. for endorsing the importance of the report, and I join 4G Network him in doing so. We must ensure that we look at the facts and the judgment of the inquiry.Comments expressing 2. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): concern are coming from many quarters, but I urge When 4G network services will be rolled out in everyone to wait and not to prejudge the findings of the (a) England and Wales and (b) Central Bedfordshire. inquiry, which will be forthcoming very shortly. [129105] 697 Oral Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 698

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, very local and personal way that we can give this Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): EE is already commemoration the importance it needs. The Government deploying 4G services in 11 cities, and will be doing so are investing more than £50 million in projects such as in five more before the end of the year. We expect the refurbishment of the Imperial War museum, but we further 4G services to become available by mid-summer. will also be doing an awful lot more at a community It will of course be for the operators to decide when level. they will become available in Central Bedfordshire. Access to the Arts Andrew Selous: My constituency is only 34 miles north of the House of Commons, yet large parts of it, 4. Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): such as the village of Studham, have almost no mobile What assessment she has made of access to the arts in phone coverage. Many complaints have been raised each region. [129108] with me about that, particularly by people running businesses and working from home. Will 4G help them? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): My Department’s Mr Vaizey: 4G should be helpful to them in the next Taking Part survey shows high levels of access to the few years, but I would also say that we take the issue of arts in all regions of England; the figures are 78.9% in partial not spots, where there is not universal coverage, England overall and 74.5% in the west midlands. very seriously. That is one reason why we are looking at making it easier to deploy mobile phone masts and Tristram Hunt: First, may I pay tribute to the great increase mobile phone coverage, particularly in areas work the Minister is doing on the Wedgwood museum? such as the one described by my hon. Friend. However, as a result of the extraordinary and disproportionate cuts to local authority budgets, great Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Has the Minister museums such as the Potteries museum and art gallery seen reports this week showing that the failure to roll in Stoke-on-Trent face a funding and scholarship crisis. out 4G speedily will cost £120 million at Christmas In a recent letter to The Guardian, the chair of Arts alone—in sales just next month? Does he accept that Council England, Liz Forgan, said that bodies such as the Government’s failure to deliver 4G speedily has an hers cannot fill the vacuum. What talks is the Minister economic impact? Will he indicate when 4G will be having with that great aesthete and lover of the arts the available in my area and throughout the Principality of Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government Wales? to make sure that our great cities and regions continue to have access to great art? Mr Vaizey: The spectrum for the 4G services that are going to be auctioned only became available when we Mr Vaizey: I met the great lover of the arts’ junior completed the digital television switchover in October. Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Communities We followed the previous Government’s timetable for and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member that, so if anyone is to blame for the delay, it is them. for Bath (Mr Foster), only yesterday, and my Department has regular communications with the Department for First World War (Commemoration) Communities and Local Government. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we managed to keep the cuts to 3. Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): national portfolio organisations down to 15% or less, What plans she has to ensure a suitable commemoration and we have massively increased the national lottery of the centenary of the first world war. [129107] share for the arts. However, we do, of course, take concerns about local authority funding seriously. The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller): We have announced a series of measures Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): to commemorate the centenary of the first world war. Does the Minister agree that funding for the arts through The Government’s programme will focus on the key the national lottery has vastly increased because of the themes of remembrance, education and youth. It will changes made by this Government? include national commemorative events, a major remodelling of the Imperial War museum, support for Mr Vaizey: Absolutely. We increased the share for the school visits to the battlefields and a special grants arts and for heritage from 16% to 20%, which means programme from the Heritage Lottery Fund to support that the arts will get hundreds of millions of pounds young people in community projects. more of lottery funding.

Damian Collins: I thank the Secretary of State for Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): that. Does she agree that it is particularly important to The Minister’s Department is responsible for the arts, support community projects, especially those such as which are so important to not only our culture, but jobs the Step Short project in Folkestone, which is working and growth. The Government have already cut funding to commemorate the lives of the 10 million men who for the Arts Council by 30% and abolished the regional passed through the fort, going to and from the trenches, development agencies, which supported arts in the regions. during the first world war? Now, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) has said, local government, Maria Miller: My hon. Friend rightly highlights the which has always been such an important support for importance of local events, and I urge all hon. Members arts locally, is struggling with huge central Government to examine the connection between their area and cuts to its budgets. That is set to have a catastrophic the first world war. It is by bringing it to life in this impact on the arts in local communities, with some 699 Oral Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 700 councils set to end their funding of local arts altogether. Maria Miller: There must be recognition of the fact Will the Minister make an immediate detailed assessment that the BBC received £3.6 billion in licence fee in this of local government cuts in arts funding and place a year alone. My hon. Friend is right to say that we copy in the House of Commons Library? cannot put the quality and standing of the BBC anywhere other than at the top of the pile, but when it comes to Mr Vaizey: It is an honour to answer a question from ensuring that we get value for the significant amount of the right hon. and learned Lady, but I simply do not money coming from the licence fee payer, it is right that recognise the picture she paints. The arts are in a very that pressure should be there. healthy state in this country, as I said. We have maintained significant funding for the arts and for our national Tour de France museums and heritage. We have substantially increased lottery funding for the arts and heritage. I will, of 6. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What course, continue to engage with local authorities on this support her Department is giving to bids for the Tour important issue. de France to come to the UK in 2014. [129110]

BBC Licence Fee The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): UK Sport and 5. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): If she will British Cycling are discussing potential bids to host bring forward proposals to reduce the BBC licence fee. stages of the event around the UK in 2014. We have [129109] asked UK Sport to assess the strategic importance and financial viability of the bids and to provide support as The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport necessary. (Maria Miller): It is right that the BBC should play its part in making savings alongside all other public sector Jason McCartney: Can my hon. Friend confirm that organisations. The Government have delivered a real-term the Yorkshire bid for the Tour de France in 2014 and its reduction in the BBC licence fee by freezing it at its potential route over Holme Moss in my constituency current level until March 2017. will be given equal support and funding to the Scottish bid? May I invite my hon. Friend to come and have a Mr Bone: I do not think the Secretary of State quite look at Holme Moss, which is the most picturesque part answered my question, but clearly we are not going to of the world and would make a superb stage for the get a cut in the licence fee, as requested. May I make it Tour de France? much easier for her? The Secretary of State believes that everybody loves the BBC, so why make it compulsory to Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend is aware that we believe pay the licence fee? Why not just make it a subscription that the best chance of success will be to submit a single channel? bid and we have reached out to Yorkshire to ask them to take part in a national bid. Anything he can do to Maria Miller: I would never want to fall out with my help would be most welcome. I was grateful for his hon. Friend, but I think that is exactly what I did say: intervention, but I think it would be more appropriate we have already brought forward proposals to ensure for the Minister for Sport, to whom I spoke yesterday. that the BBC licence fee is, in effect, reduced by freezing He is keen to visit my hon. Friend’s constituency at the it. I hope that he will welcome that and, of course, we earliest possible opportunity. will always strive to ensure that the organisation brings forth value for money. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Will the Minister also reach out to Shropshire? As he will know, the Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ national cycle network goes through the county, and he Co-op): The Secretary of State will know that the BBC has visited the Wrekin, the wonderful landmark in World Service is to be funded from the licence fee in due Shropshire. Will he continue his conversations with the course. Whatever else happens, will she ensure that the Minister for Sport and ensure that the Tour de France World Service is not in any way jeopardised and that its comes through that beautiful county? ability to serve our national interest and to provide services to many viewers and listeners across the world Mr Vaizey: I have visited my hon. Friend’s constituency is not reduced? and can confirm its beauty. As I am standing in as proxy for the Minister for Sport, may I also confirm his Maria Miller: The World Service has a unique role to acceptance of the invitation to visit my hon. Friend’s play in broadcasting on a global level. The hon. Gentleman constituency? can have my assurance that we will continue to value that in the future, though the changes to funding that Spending on Sport (Gender Audit) have been made are important. 7. Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): May What plans her Department has for a gender audit of I urge the Secretary of State to resist any calls for a public spending on sport. [129111] reduction in the licence fee? The BBC has already faced significant cuts to valued services, such as local radio, as The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport a result of the budget constraints. Surely this is just yet (Maria Miller): The Department measures sport another attack on the BBC by its enemies, at a time participation by gender via the Taking Part survey. In when it should be focusing its attention on getting its addition, Sport England’s Active People survey provides own house in order. more detailed data on sport participation. Together, 701 Oral Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 702 those provide a good understanding of the gender clarify the legal responsibility in this case and how my implications of public spending on sport. The Department residents can get compensation in cases where it could has no plans to undertake a specific gender audit. be the wind farm or 4G that is the cause?

Barbara Keeley: I thank the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey: As I understand it, mitigating the impact that answer. The Active People survey shows that more of the wind farm is the responsibility of its operator, than 2 million fewer girls and women than men take which is now communicating with residents and providing part in sport, at both weekly and monthly intervals, but solutions, such as moving aerials so that they can pick 12 million say that they want to take part in sport. Is up signals from the alternative transmitter. As he correctly not it time we had a full audit of public spending on says, interference is not caused by 4G, because of course sport to find out what it is spent on and why so many the 4G that could interfere with digital televisions signals fewer women than men take part? has not yet been deployed.

Maria Miller: The hon. Lady puts her finger on it. We Lottery Good Causes know that there are participation issues, so rather than simply continuing to audit it, we are taking action. We 9. Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): If she will take already have our £1 billion youth and community sports steps to accelerate the repayment of moneys taken strategy, which is looking at ways of ensuring that girls from lottery good causes funds to support the London take part in sport, and the Active Women programme, a 2012 Olympic games; and if she will make a statement. £10 million lottery programme aimed at getting women [129113] into sport. Of course, the most important audit of all was the Olympic games this summer, in which the very The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport first gold medal was won by a woman, as indeed was the (Maria Miller): The Government have put in place a last. That is evidence that things are moving in the right new legal agreement with the Greater London authority direction, but clearly there is still more to do. ensuring that the £675 million that the lottery will receive from Olympic park land sales will be returned to Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): Is it the lottery earlier than previously planned. important to build on the success of the Olympics, particularly in participation, but the reason a survey is Fiona Mactaggart: The point is this: when? The Olympic important is that we are seeing a drop in the number of delivery third quarter report stated that the centrally girls involved in school sport, so there is a need to held contingency funding remaining in the package will measure what is happening. I think the Secretary of be transferred to the national lottery distribution fund State should speak with the Secretary of State for for the benefit of lottery good causes. Those good Education, who does not seem to like sport. causes, which are being hit by Government cuts and squeezes in philanthropy following the recession, want Maria Miller: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I to know when they will get the money and how much speak regularly with the Secretary of State for Education interest they will be paid. on this and many other issues and to ensure that we continue the excellent work of the school games, which Maria Miller: I understand the hon. Lady’s concern has done so much not only to improve girls’ participation with the plans that were put in place by the Government in sport, but to help more disabled people get involved. of whom she was a part and the timing of the programme we inherited. That is why we have made sure that the Digital Television Reception (Baxenden) money will be repaid earlier. If she wants further details on that, which is quite complex, perhaps I can write to 8. Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): What steps her her. Department is taking to address problems with digital television reception in Baxenden. [129112] Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): Lottery funding helped the Olympics to generate unprecedented levels of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, enthusiasm in sport, and was one of the factors that Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): There are a few brought together a community sport group, a school, a factors that could affect reception in Baxenden, but I college, a local residents group and a developer in my gather that the most likely cause is a wind farm—I do constituency to create a sports park for all who live not know whether that information is available to the there. Will the Secretary of State agree to meet Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate representatives of those organisations to see how we Change, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland can make this dream a reality? and The Deepings (Mr Hayes). Maria Miller: My hon. Friend rightly highlights the Graham Jones: I am grateful to the Minister, who is important role the Olympics played as a catalyst in up to date on the matter. Baxenden, of course, has a making people aware of the importance of having the weak signal from the Winter Hill transmitter, which has right facilities available in local areas, and we have made been identified by his Department as one of those that it one of the key parts of our legacy programme to will be most adversely affected by the 4G roll-out. That make sure those facilities flourish. I would be happy to will affect my constituency because the weak signal hear more about the initiative my hon. Friend mentions. spans right across it. He is correct, because over the weekend scientific evidence indicated that the wind Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): farm was the problem. I add that more turbines would Taking money from lottery-supported good causes was probably alleviate the situation. What will he do to about the worst possible way to pay for the Olympics. 703 Oral Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 704

The Secretary of State now has the opportunity to put Lincolnshire, only one person in five has access to this right. There is a £377 million underspend. Will she broadband, and in Ceredigion the proportion is one now pledge to return that money to good causes as soon person in four. Whatever happened to the party of the as possible? countryside?

Maria Miller: I have to disagree with the hon. Gentleman. Mr Vaizey: We did not abandon Labour’s pledge; I think the role the lottery played in the delivery of the Labour’s pledge was unaffordable and it was unclear Olympics was absolutely right. He raises an important how it was going to be paid for. We have put in place a point, however, about rebalancing the lottery. As he will much better pledge—to deliver superfast broadband—and know, we have already put measures in place to do that we have among the highest penetration of internet and to bring forward this important repayment. access in the world.

Superfast Broadband Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I congratulate the Government on getting this state aid approval. The 10. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) Minister will be aware that some telephone exchanges (Lab): What assessment she has made of the progress serve residents and premises that cross local authority boundaries, so will he encourage authorities to work of the rural superfast broadband programme. [129114] together even when they are not in the same consortiums, to ensure residents served by those exchanges are properly The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, supported? Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): We are making good progress, and I can confirm the good news, which I know the hon. Lady will welcome, that the European Mr Vaizey: We are certainly encouraging that, and a Commission has now approved the UK umbrella state number of counties are working together, including Devon and Somerset, and Herefordshire and Gloucestershire. aid notification. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] A cheer for Europe in this Chamber is a thing of rare beauty, We will continue to encourage that where it is appropriate. and we will continue, therefore, to progress our rural broadband programme. Cultural Sector (Merseyside)

Chi Onwurah: But the Minister for communications 11. Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): What cannot hide the complete “comnishambles” over which assessment she has made of the cultural sector in he is presiding. That is why state aid approval was Merseyside. [129115] delayed for so many months. We have a multi-million pound superfast broadband process with no competitors. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Will the Minister commit to ensuring that there is Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Our most recent effective competition in the delivery of superfast broadband, survey data show that last year, nearly 80% of adults in so British consumers and businesses get the choice they the north-west engaged with the arts and 4.9 million deserve? people visited DCMS-sponsored museums. Between 2010 and 2015, the Arts Council will invest £44 million in Mr Vaizey: I agree with the hon. Lady that we have a Merseyside organisations and £140 million across the multi-million pound superfast broadband programme, north-west. National Museums Liverpool will receive and it is going to deliver superfast broadband to 90% of £109 million in grant in aid. the country. I cannot make companies compete for these funds, but we do have a robust process in place to Alison McGovern: I never get tired of hearing how ensure value for money, and we are proceeding apace. successful the cultural sector is in Merseyside, so I thank the Minister for his answer. However, he knows Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will Ministers consider as well as I do that National Museums is not the same prioritising not spots for the roll-out, such as the village as the support that local authorities formerly gave and of Denton in my constituency, which has shamefully that before the disastrous cuts that they now face, been neglected by BT, as well as areas that have poor leaders in Merseyside had been able to support the arts, mobile reception, such as St Margaret’s and Kingsdown, so why will he not answer the question from my right which get French mobile phone signals? hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman)? Why will he not say to us Mr Vaizey: For the 4G auction, we have put in place today that he will undertake a survey of local authority a 98% coverage obligation. Getting broadband to the cuts and place that information about the arts in the village of Denton will, of course, be part of the Kent House of Commons Library? rural broadband programme, so it will be a matter for my hon. Friend to discuss with his county council. Mr Vaizey: The reason the hon. Lady does not get tired of hearing about the success of Merseyside’s arts Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): The organisations is that they are astonishingly successful. Government chose to abandon Labour’s target of universal Liverpool had an incredible year as the European city broadband access by 2012, and last week Ofcom published of culture, its central library is being refurbished, it figures that showed that 10% of the population— opened the first national museum for a century, the 5 million people—have no access to broadband whatever. Liverpool Everyman is benefiting from a £28 million The problem is especially bad in rural areas, where refurbishment, and only recently the Royal Court received access is 50% worse than in urban areas. In north a grant of £867,000 for its refurbishment. 705 Oral Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 706

Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): of State to join together her responsibilities for tourism One of Merseyside’s creative industry strengths is our and sport by visiting Rugby as it prepares for visitors video games sector. Will the Minister please update the during the rugby world cup, which is being held in House on the progress that his Government are making England in 2015? towards introducing a video games tax relief? Maria Miller: Again, my hon. Friend demonstrates Mr Vaizey: I am delighted to have the opportunity to the fact that tourism can play a role in a wide variety of remind the House that we are introducing an important towns—Rugby is, I think, the second largest town in the tax credit for the video games industry. Our negotiations country. I will look carefully at any proposal to come with the European Commission are going very well and and support the rugby world cup. we are, I hope, still on target to introduce it next April. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): If one goes on holiday Tourism to Poland, France or Italy, it is nice to be greeted in the hotel by a receptionist who is from Poland, France or 12. Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): What steps Italy. The same does not often happen in the United she is taking to increase the effects of tourism on the Kingdom. Is it not time that the British hospitality and economy. [129116] tourism industries did more to enable young British people to get jobs in British hotels? The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller): Tourism is a key priority for the Maria Miller: What is important is that hoteliers are Government. That is why we are funding VisitBritain’s able to use people who are best placed to support the biggest ever global tourism initiative, the GREAT campaign, visitors who stay in those hotels, whether those are which is expected to create 4.6 million extra visitors, young British people or people from other countries as £2.3 billion additional spend and nearly 60,000 jobs well. I do not recognise the point that the hon. Gentleman over the next four years. In addition, a major domestic is making. campaign by VisitEngland is expected to create 12,000 jobs over three years, with £500 million extra spent by tourists. 17. [129122] Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): In welcoming the Government’s tourism strategy, may I ask my right Andrew Bingham: Recent research has shown that hon. Friend to say a little more about how communities tourism in Buxton in my constituency of High Peak who are close to major gateways such as Gatwick generated a massive £72 million for the local economy. airport can benefit from tourism so that people can Does my right hon. Friend agree that this demonstrates enjoy, in my local case, the fantastic entertainment and not only the huge financial and employment benefits of retail facilities in Crawley and the beautiful countryside an effective tourism industry, but the fact that these of west Sussex? benefits spread out to surrounding areas and all parts of the local economy, even those that would not necessarily Maria Miller: It is right to point out that many areas be associated with tourism? of the country could be benefiting even more from tourism. That is why we are putting record levels of Maria Miller: My hon. Friend should not be surprised spend behind our domestic campaign to encourage at that level of tourism in his area, given the fantastic people to consider Britain as the place for their holidays international festivals, the wonderful Georgian architecture or short breaks. of Buxton and the way that it has inspired so much creativity over the generations. All Members of the Topical Questions House should be looking at the way that tourism can help to support their own local economies because it has such potential for growth. T1. [129124] Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): If she will make a statement on her Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): What departmental responsibilities. discussions has the Secretary of State held with Ministers in the Department for Transport regarding the needs of The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport coach operators and the vital role that they can play in (Maria Miller): As hon. Members will have noticed, my promoting tourism? right hon. Friend the Minister of State is not with us for oral questions. He is currently in Rio de Janeiro leading Maria Miller: As I said earlier, the role of domestic a delegation to share London’s knowledge and expertise tourism is more important at present than even international with our Brazilian counterparts, helping them to prepare tourism so connectivity through trains, coaches and our for the World cup in 2014 and the Olympics and road network is a vital part of making sure that we Paralympics in 2016—and, importantly, banging the maximise that. I will take a particular look at any issues drum for British business. With £70 million of contracts that the hon. Lady wants to raise with me with regard to already won for UK companies in Rio, we are continuing coach travel because it is clearly an important part of to deliver an economic legacy for the UK from the most the domestic market. successful games of modern times.

14. [129118] Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): My constituency Simon Hughes: Rio in November—it must be a hard is the only place in the world to have given its name to life! an international game and we are working hard to There is often lots of conversation about the difficulties derive an economic benefit from this by attracting visitors of broadband access in rural areas. What can Ministers to the town. May I extend an invitation to the Secretary do to help people in urban areas such as mine, where 707 Oral Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 708 in Rotherhithe, for example, people are not near the money to BT. It is a competitive tendering process, and telephone exchange and broadband is therefore very if BT wins the contracts that local authorities put out, poor indeed? that is a matter for those local authorities.

Maria Miller: The right hon. Gentleman raises an T6. [129130] Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): issue with which many people in the Chamber will My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) identify. Urban areas by no means always receive the mentioned the rugby world cup in 2015. I must just sort of connectivity that our constituents want. That is clarify that he was referring to the rugby union world why it is important that we have put in place not only cup. The rugby league world cup is happening next the rural broadband programme to deliver better year. connectivity in rural areas but the urban broadband Switching to football, do Ministers accept the case fund for our urban areas, which will ensure that London for introducing, on a trial basis, limited standing areas has some £25 million to achieve the improvements that at football grounds for premiership and championship he talks about. clubs whose management want to participate?

Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The “Chance to Shine” Mr Vaizey: We believe that seated stadiums offer the survey published this week shows that the majority of best experience for spectators and the best safety measures. parents who were surveyed—54%—said that since the That view is supported by the Government, the police Olympics their children have played less than two hours and the sport. of sport and PE per week. Participation in sport in school is on the way down. The PE and sports survey T4. [129127] Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Given the published in 2010 told us that over 90% of schoolchildren importance of the high standards and diversity in our were doing sport in schools. If we are to have any media, will the communications Bill include any Leveson chance of instilling a sporting habit for life in our young inquiry recommendations on media and cross-media children, we will have to start in schools. Will the ownership? Minister tell us what the Government intend to do to monitor what is going on in our schools? Maria Miller: We have always made it clear that we Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; will take Lord Leveson’s thoughts and findings into we have to instil that habit of sport at the earliest age. account as we draw the Bill together. As I have said before, I share his concern about participation levels among young people. We will be looking carefully T8. [129132] Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I at the findings from the “Chance to Shine” survey. I recently attended Worcester’s Gheluvelt park for a moving have already talked to him and to other Members about service to mark the 98th anniversary of the battle of the school games, in which 50% of schools have participated, Gheluvelt, at which the Worcestershire Regiment stopped and through our youth sport strategy £1 billion is going the Prussian guard and stabilised the western front. As towards supporting further participation. I hope that he the 100th anniversary of those heroic actions draws will welcome those facts. near, what can the Secretary of State do to ensure that local connections with the first world war will be properly T2. [129125] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): The recognised amidst the national commemorations? London Olympics and Paralympics were clearly an outstanding success delivered on time and within budget, Maria Miller: An important part of the work that we with an outstanding performance by Great Britain. will do to commemorate the first world war will be to Now comes the long-term challenge of delivering the ensure that every community, and indeed every individual, legacy. Will my right hon. Friend confirm the position has the opportunity to find their own story, whether as regards progress in dismantling some of the venues they have overseas connections or not. The Heritage that are due to be moved elsewhere so that everyone can Lottery Fund will be important in delivering the finances enjoy that success? for that.

Maria Miller: The decommissioning of venues is T5. [129129] Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): We already well under way, with the transference of temporary have talked in this Question Time about the contribution venues to new owners, whether it is the volleyball courts of schools to developing sporting activities among children. or the beach volleyball courts that were just round the Schools are also key to developing creativity among corner from here, from which the sand has been taken children, and Britain leads the world in the creative and used to create tens of new volleyball courts throughout industries. Will the Secretary of State meet the Secretary London, including one in Wimbledon park. of State for Education to discuss the effect of the EBacc plans on creative subjects in the curriculum, and to T3. [129126] Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): The ensure that creativity is part of our children’s education? Conservative party used to support a competitive telecommunications market. Why on earth are Ministers Maria Miller: The hon. Lady needs to understand now establishing a new private sector monopoly in rural that the English baccalaureate has creativity at its heart. superfast broadband by simply handing all the Government It includes English, maths, science, history, geography subsidy over to BT? and languages, and will give students the opportunity to explore the heritage of this country’s literature. Sitting The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, alongside that, the 123 new music hubs that have been Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): I cannot keep on established will ensure that creativity is at the heart of making this point, but I will. We are not handing the our children’s education. 709 Oral Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 710

T9. [129133] Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): Essex is an Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Today is important engine of economic growth in the United the feast day of Saint Cecilia, the patron saint of music, Kingdom. Businesses in our county are being held and it also marks the launch of celebrations in Aldeburgh back by poor broadband infrastructure, and yet we for Benjamin Britten’s centenary year. Will the Secretary have been placed 31st out of 35 on the Broadband of State join me next year at the Red House to celebrate Delivery UK project framework. Will the Secretary of one of our greatest ever composers? State support local businesses in Essex by prioritising the roll-out of high-speed broadband? Mr Vaizey: I have already accepted a number of invitations on behalf of the sports Minister, and I am Mr Vaizey: Essex has been awarded £6 million for its happy to confirm that the Secretary of State will, I am rural broadband programme. Although it is low on the sure, make it to Aldeburgh next year to celebrate the list because of when it submitted its application to centenary of one of our greatest composers who children BDUK, we will work with Essex and a lot of work can will learn about in school, particularly after we publish be done before procurement. our national cultural education plan—the first of its kind in our history. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): There has been a huge increase in the number of betting shops Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): opening in generic shopping units and the subsequent Does the Department plan any legislative changes to installation of the high-stake, high-price fixed odds the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964, and if so, betting terminals, which contribute to gambling addiction. when? Will the Secretary of State meet the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government to agree a Mr Vaizey: I am happy to confirm to the hon. Lady policy that places betting shops in a specific planning that the Government are doing an enormous amount to category to stop the increase in betting shops and help libraries. We have given responsibility for libraries high-stake machines? Will she carry out an investigation to the Arts Council, which has set up a £6 million fund into the impact of those machines on gambling addiction? to support them, and we have appointed a new libraries adviser, Yinnon Ezra. We are piloting the compulsory membership of libraries for schoolchildren and we have Maria Miller: On the final part of the hon. Gentleman’s the Seighart review on e-lending. We continue strongly question, we believe that there is a need for more to support libraries. This is not about legislation, it is evidence on the impact of gambling within society. We about action. are collecting that evidence now and are looking carefully at all the issues that he raised. Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Under the previous Government, broadband provision in Northumberland Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I pay tribute was woeful, disorganised and underfunded. That situation to the Secretary of State, the Under-Secretary of State is slowly improving, which brings great benefits. Will for Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for the Minister meet me—rather than the sports Minister Wantage (Mr Vaizey) and Ofcom for the auction having that pleasure—and fellow representatives in arrangements, which satisfy all the mobile phone operators. Northumberland, to discuss how we can improve the However, will Ministers reassure the House that planning provision of broadband in Northumberland? guidance will be put in place to enable mobile operators to introduce higher masts and bring about 4G roll-out Mr Vaizey: As a matter of principle I never refuse a much more quickly? meeting with an hon. Member under my portfolio, and I would be happy to meet my hon. Friend—in fact, Mr Vaizey: We are looking at the planning regulations I would be delighted. on mobile phone masts. We will bring forward proposals and consult on them in the appropriate manner. My hon. Friend’s point is well made. If we want to benefit from 4G, we have to make it easier to deploy networks. WOMEN AND EQUALITIES

Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I was concerned by the Secretary of State’s answer to my hon. Friend the The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked— Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart). The Culture, Media and Sport Committee has been taking evidence Unemployment in its inquiry into the creative industries. Every single witness has said that the Government’s plans for the 1. Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): What EBacc will be devastating for the arts and culture. The assessment she has made of the differential effect of Secretary of State must be the champion for arts and unemployment across age groups. [129134] culture in government and must ask the Education Secretary to think again. 3. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): What assessment she has made of the Maria Miller: The right hon. Gentleman needs to differential effect of unemployment across age groups. understand that as well as Ebacc’s creative content, [129140] many things are going on around that in schools. The issue has been carefully considered by Ofsted, which 6. Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): What assesses the cultural development of individuals in schools. assessment she has made of the differential effect of That is at the heart of what we are doing. unemployment across age groups. [129143] 711 Oral Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 712

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work that we must approach the problem from the point of and Pensions (Esther McVey): Over the past year, view of education and skills, rather than pretending, as unemployment has fallen in every age group and the the Opposition do, that the problem started in 2010? number of people in work has risen by more than half a million. Esther McVey: I agree with my hon. Friend absolutely. For clarification, the unemployment figures for young Alison McGovern: The Minister’s answer concerns people are affected by the rising proportion of people in me slightly because in my constituency surgery I have education rather than in the labour market. Those who heard from women in the 50-to-64 age group who are have left education and are unemployed in the 16 to finding the labour market very tough. I believe that we 24-year-old population is 9%, which is lower than in the have seen a recent increase in unemployment of more recessions of the ’90s and the ’80s. We are doing more than 20% in that age group. What will the Minister do than ever before for the youth of today. to help older women get back to work? Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): Youth Esther McVey: The hon. Lady represents the constituency unemployment in Hastings has fallen by 16% in the past next to mine and we should both celebrate the fact that year, which I welcome. Is the Minister happy with how employment figures are up for every age group, locally, youth unemployment is assessed? Some of my constituents nationally and regionally. The unemployment rate for find it confusing that young people in full-time education people over 50 is 4.5%, and for women over 50 it is are still classified as unemployed. 3.5%. Those figures are lower than the total unemployment rate of 7.8%. I would question your facts. Esther McVey: I agree with my hon. Friend—I referred to that in my previous answer. We need to get the statistics right. As I said, 9% of the total 16 to 24-year-old Mr Speaker: Order. I am sure the Minister is not population are unemployed. We have put more in place questioning my facts, but I think I have the gist of what than ever before to help that group of people. she is saying. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): May I Tom Blenkinsop: Over the past two years, long-term declare an interest in the employment of women aged unemployment among young women increased by 412% between 50 and 64? Will the Minister join me in welcoming on Teesside, with 640 women aged 24 and under claiming the fact that the unemployment rate in that group is, at jobseeker’s allowance for more than 12 months. Does 3.5%, the lowest rate of unemployment for any group of the Minister agree with figures from the Office for women? Some 3.5 million women in that age group National Statistics which show that under this Government, are employed, which is the highest number ever, and long-term youth unemployment among women on Teesside 60.6% is the highest rate of employment for the group. has skyrocketed, and what will she do about it? Esther McVey: I agree with my hon. Friend—that is Esther McVey: I believe that is only part of the story, obviously a very talented group of women. She is and in the past, false breaks in unemployment statistics— correct that 3.5% is lower than before. It is half the total particularly under the new deal—skewed figures. The unemployment rate, which is 7.8%. Work programme has removed that anomaly, providing a true reflection of the facts. Youth unemployment Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Last is down, and the Government are doing significant month in Women and Equalities questions, the Under- things to help with 250,000 more work experience Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, the hon. places, 160,000 more wage incentives, and 20,000 more Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), apprenticeship grants. We are doing as much as we said she did not accept that the figure of 50% unemployment possibly can and, as I said, unemployment is significantly among young black men was accurate. On 24 October, down under this Government. in a written answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), Glen Watson of the Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Youth UK Statistics Authority confirmed that the figure is unemployment in Clwyd South is up 157% from this actually 52%. I listened carefully to the answers the time last year. Does she accept that her weasel words Minister gave a moment ago about the definition of the simply will not wash with those young people, and will unemployment rate. Is she saying that she does not she confirm how the Government intend to help them? accept the official figures? What will the Government Surely the Government should take the utmost action do about the scandalously high level of black youth to get them back into work. unemployment?

Esther McVey: They are not weasel words. Clwyd Esther McVey: We are doing a lot about this. Again, South’s statistics show that unemployment is down unemployment for that group is under a third—the whether for 18 to 24-year-olds or for all claimant counts. figures the hon. Lady presents do not include people We are doing significant work to support young people. who are in education.

Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): It is extremely concerning Workplace Diversity for all hon. Members when young people are unemployed. Enormous numbers of jobs have been created in London 2. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): What in the past 10-plus years, and yet some young people steps she is taking to support women and minority have been left behind. Does that not highlight the fact groups in the workplace. [129138] 713 Oral Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 714

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women Parliament will feel uncomfortable if new proposals and Equalities (Jo Swinson): In the current economic come forward that further water down plans for women circumstances, we need more than ever to maximise the bishops, when the majority of those in the Church have full potential of the diverse talents in our work force. already shown their strong support for these plans. Will My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister confirmed she ask the Secretary of State to convey to the Church last week that we will legislate to extend the right to the willingness and readiness of Parliament to work request flexible working to all employees, ensuring that with it and to support the views of the majority of the benefits of flexibility are available as widely as Church members in support of women bishops? possible. In addition, more than 50 leading employers are signed up to our “Think, Act, Report” initiative, Jo Swinson: The right hon. Lady will know that there covering more than 1 million employees. is due to be an urgent question shortly, when this issue will be discussed in more detail. Personally, as a strong Lilian Greenwood: The Government state that the supporter of women’s equality, I share her disappointment new employment tribunal fees for claims relating to the and that of many others. As a Scottish humanist, I national minimum wage will attract the lowest level of recognise that I may not be the best person to tell the fee—£390—yet the average payout to workers who make Church of England what it should be doing. All our a claim enforcing the minimum wage is just £165, which religious institutions are important. She raised the issue is less than half the cost of pursuing a claim under the of the role of Parliament. She may be aware that I have new fee structure. Does the Minister agree that the new not been a supporter of all-women shortlists for Parliament. system of employment tribunal fees will unfairly punish There is an irony in that there is a continuing all-male women, disabled people, and black and ethnic minority shortlist as a result of this decision. She is right to workers, who are disproportionately represented among highlight that a significant majority in the General the low paid? Synod supported the move to women bishops. The fact that 95% of dioceses supported it gives some reassurance Jo Swinson: The hon. Lady raises the issue of access to those who would like to see this change happen. to justice, which I agree is important. That is why, in addition to the fee regime, there will be a remissions Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Women are regime, which will mean that the people on the lowest routinely paid less than men—15% less on average incomes will not have to pay. The key point to remember nationally; 23% less in London. However, the Davies about employment tribunals, highlighted by the figure report found that organisations with more women on she gave on the average payout in those minimum wage their boards outperformed their rivals by 42% in sales, cases, is that they are often not the best route to resolving and significantly on return on capital and on equity. disputes. That is why the Government are legislating to Does my hon. Friend agree that to promote greater make sure that there is more early conciliation, so that equality in the workplace, companies must be far more for employers and employees alike the stress, time and open about their employment practices so that they money involved in employment tribunals can be avoided have better outcomes? in all but the most necessary circumstances.

Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Jo Swinson: Of course, the pay gap figures have just Will my hon. Friend look at the cohort of older women been updated and published this morning and they have who are being asked to work longer before they can come down slightly, but my hon. Friend is right to claim their state pension? They are particularly difficult highlight that they are still too high. My hon. Friend to place in the workplace. What measures will the highlights the fact that having more women on boards Government consider to assist them? can help companies’ performance. I encourage employers to sign up to our “Think, Act, Report” initiative, so that Jo Swinson: This group of women is very talented they properly use the talents of women within their and we need to be using their talents in the economy. businesses at all levels. The additional plans for flexibility are helpful not just for those with caring responsibilities for young children, Paralympic Games (Legacy) but for people as they get closer to retirement age. Rather than falling off the cliff of working full time and 4. Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): What steps immediately going into full retirement, being able to she is taking to ensure that the London 2012 Paralympic reduce hours and work flexibly can be helpful in that games leave a lasting legacy for disabled people across transition. the UK. [129141] Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): The Synod rejection of women bishops will have The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport deeply disappointed the talented women who work in (Maria Miller): The Paralympics were hugely successful. the Church of England, the vast majority of Church Now, we must ensure that we convert this success into members who had expressed their support, and those in an Olympic and Paralympic legacy that lasts beyond Parliament and across the country who supported women one great summer. The Government are working with bishops. Does the Minister agree that we should urge Lord Coe so that the legacy programme delivers real the Church to look again at this swiftly, and that it and tangible benefits, including for disabled people. cannot be left to lie for another five years? The Church is the established Church, so the issue affects bishops in Huw Irranca-Davies: The Paralympic games sent a Parliament and Parliament has to agree to the changes. tremendously positive message across wider society. She and the Secretary of State will know that many in Does the Minister regret, therefore, that the aim of 715 Oral Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 716 achieving disability equality has been dropped by the Charlie Elphicke: Is it not particularly important that Department for Work and Pensions? Is that not a we help partnered mothers with children into the workplace, completely contradictory message to send? particularly considering that in 1985 less than 30% of women with children under 3 were in the workplace but Maria Miller: I know from personal experience that today it is nearly 60%? at the heart of everything the Department does is giving people an opportunity to play a full role in society and Jo Swinson: I agree with my hon. Friend that it is looking at people for what they can do, not what they important that we help working mothers who wish to cannot do. That is exactly what we should be doing to work to play a full role in the labour market. That is support disabled people into work. also about ensuring that fathers who want to play a full role in parenting can do so. The ability to share parental Supporting Women into Work leave between mums and dads in the way they choose, rather than how the Government dictate, is an important step towards achieving that goal. 5. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What steps she is taking to support more women into work. [129142] Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): The Minister will be alarmed, as we all are, by the big rise in long-term The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women unemployment among women over 50—up from 50,000 and Equalities (Jo Swinson): The Government are taking to 62,000 since the election. The Work programme, strong action to support more women into sustainable which is designed to address that, does not seem to be work. We are delivering the biggest apprenticeships delivering. What more can the Government do? programme our country has ever seen, with more than half going to women. More than 200,000 women started Jo Swinson: We are looking into this issue in detail, an apprenticeship last year. Our tax cuts for 20 million because we want to ensure that this group of women, as people on the lowest incomes ensure that work always with all unemployed people, are supported. The Work pays, and our radical reforms to parental leave announced programme provides tailored and targeted support to last week will allow more women—and men—to balance the individual, which is what is needed, and we will their work and caring responsibilities. report back to the House about what more can be done. 717 22 NOVEMBER 2012 Women Bishops 718

Women Bishops General Synod. Although this is for the Church of England to resolve, as the Prime Minister made clear 10.31 am yesterday, I suspect that there will also be those in the Church of England who will wish to consider whether Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab) the election process to the General Synod is sufficiently (Urgent Question): Will the Second Church Estates representative, particularly of the laity of the Church of Commissioner make a statement on this week’s decision England, as Tuesday’s vote clearly did not reflect the by the General Synod on women bishops? overall and clear consensus of dioceses across England in support of women bishops. The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony It is my earnest hope that during the time I serve Baldry): Yesterday, the Archbishop of Canterbury made the Queen—whose appointment I am—this House it clear at the General Synod of the Church of England and the Church of England as Second Church Estates that the Church of England could not afford to “hang Commissioner it will prove possible for me to bring about” over the issue of women bishops and observed before this House a Measure that will enable women to starkly that be consecrated bishops in the Church of England. “every day that we fail to resolve this issue…is a day when our credibility in the public eye is likely to diminish”. Diana Johnson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Justin Welby, the Bishop of Durham and the next response to the urgent question, and I know that he is as Archbishop of Canterbury, said: disappointed as I am at having to speak on this matter “The Church has voted overwhelmingly in favour of the principle. today. May I also thank you, Mr Speaker, for the It is a question of finding a way that…is the right way forward.” opportunity to raise this important matter on the Floor It is important for the House to recognise that there is of the House today? overwhelming support in the Church of England for It appears to me and many others that the theological women bishops to be consecrated. The draft Measure arguments over women priests—and therefore their position rejected earlier this week was supported by clear majorities in roles of authority—were settled 20 years ago in the in 42 of the 44 dioceses in England. As I have repeatedly Church of England. The next natural step, on which I said, it is impossible for me to explain to parliamentary think there is agreement across the House, is to see colleagues how a Measure that has had the clear support some of the excellent ordained women priests now of 42 out of 44 dioceses failed to pass in the General move into positions of leadership in our Church as Synod. Let us take all the votes passed in the General bishops. Just as discrimination in the wider community Synod: 324 members voted for women bishops, and is wrong, as it keeps the talents and abilities of all from 122 against; 94% of the bishops who voted on Tuesday flourishing, so it is important in the established Church supported the Measure, as did 77% of the House of that the talents, experience and skills of both men and Clergy; and even in the House of Laity, 64% were in women are used and that the Church is led by the very favour. The Measure was lost by a handful of votes best, not just those who happen to be male. There among the laity, because for the Measure to pass it had should be no stained glass ceiling for women in our to clear the hurdle of a two-thirds majority in each Church. House of the General Synod. The Church of England now stands to be left behind Speaking for the whole House, I am sure, my right by the society it seeks to serve and made to look hon. Friend and fellow Church Commissioner, the Prime outdated, irrelevant and frankly eccentric by this decision. Minister, made it clear to the House yesterday that the It appears that a broad Church is being held to ransom “Church needs to get on with it, as it were, and get with the by a few narrow minds, but as the hon. Gentleman said, programme”—[Official Report, 21 November 2012; Vol. 553, the vast majority of members of the Church want to see c. 579.] women bishops. He set out clearly the votes that were He observed that the Church of England needed a cast at both diocesan and General Synod level. I was “sharp prod”. pleased to hear him say that there are questions to be I appreciate that frustrations exist in the House on asked about the convoluted decision-making structure this matter—a frustration that I share—and I think that in the Church, and in particular about the representative the following needs to be understood. First, this is not nature of the House of Laity, and whether an overhaul an issue that can in any way be parked for the next of the electoral system needs to be considered. The couple of years or so, while we await another round of decision made by an unrepresentative minority in the Synod elections. It must be understood that this issue House of Laity means that this essential modernisation needs to be resolved as soon as possible. I hope that it of the Church of England has potentially been put will be convenient for the House if I seek to arrange a back for another five years or more, with no guarantee meeting in the near future for concerned Members, of progress even then. together with the Bishop of Durham, the archbishop- In fact, I think positions will become even more designate, to explore how this matter can be resolved as difficult. Many campaigners felt that they had offered speedily as possible. concessions to accommodate those of different views There have been some suggestions in the press that it and will perhaps now take a much less conciliatory is impossible for the Church of England or General approach, as they feel that the concessions have been Synod to return to this issue until after a new General ignored, with no willingness to compromise. As the Synod has been elected in 2015. That is not correct: the Church of England is part of the constitutional settlement rules prevent the same Measure from being reconsidered of this country, it is important that Parliament has by the General Synod without a special procedure. It is regard to what the decision means for the country and perfectly possible for a different and amended Measure the Church’s role in law making. With the decision to consecrate women bishops to be considered by the made, we now see the entrenchment of the discriminatory 719 Women Bishops22 NOVEMBER 2012 Women Bishops 720 nature of the 26 places in the upper House reserved for parliamentarians. He was at the very stormy meeting Bishops, who can only be male. Does the hon. Gentleman yesterday between parliamentarians and the bishops. agree that this cannot be right, and that Parliament and Peers and MPs of all parties were saying with one voice the Government have to consider what we should do, that if the Church does not get on and do this, Parliament especially in light of the Government’s decision to will. Will he therefore convene an emergency meeting of abandon any wider reform of the Lords? Does he the Ecclesiastical Committee, so that we can take legal further agree that we must also consider whether the advice as to what Parliament can do to help the Church exemption from equalities legislation for the Church of to achieve the will of the people in the Church? England now needs to be re-examined? Finally, I am pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman’s Sir Tony Baldry: It was because of yesterday’s meeting, resolve on the need to sort this out as soon as possible, and because I am conscious of the concerns being as well as what the Archbishop of Canterbury said. I expressed on both sides of the House, that I would like understand that there will be moves by the Church to to convene a meeting with the archbishop-designate. spend some time thinking about how to proceed, but it Justin Welby has great leadership skills, and it is he who is imperative that those in the all-male group of bishops will have to lead the Church of England in this matter. do not talk just to one another, but work with and He needs to hear the voices from the House of Lords alongside senior women in the Church to find a way and the House of Commons that were heard in that forward. Unlike the Prime Minister, I think Parliament meeting yesterday. We need to funnel our energies into has a role to play and should now look at doing all it helping him to resolve the matter. can to support the Church at this time. I hope that the hon. Gentleman agrees. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): Thank you for granting the urgent question, Sir Tony Baldry: I agree with almost all that the hon. Mr Speaker. Lady said. The really important point is that the whole Can we all send our support, love and concern to all House wants the Church of England to get on with this women who are ordained or hope to be ordained in the matter. It cannot be parked, and work needs to be done Church—including your chaplain, Mr Speaker, and all urgently to try to ensure that it is resolved as quickly as others? They must feel even more frustrated than we do, possible. In fairness, the House of Bishops gave the but we are not going to let them down. Given that, over greatest possible leadership in the General Synod. However, the past 20 years, the Church has managed to sort out as I sat there, the analogy that struck me was that it was how parishes that did not want women priests could be a bit like Government Whips trying to talk to the looked after, does the Second Church Estates Commissioner Eurosceptics; there were those in the General Synod not agree that it must be possible to resolve this issue? who, whatever the bishops said to them, were just not Will he invite the Minister for Women and Equalities to going to listen. So, in fairness, the House of Bishops in offer the services of the Government, not to tell the an episcopal-led Church was very clear about the need Church what to do but to offer it professional advice on to make change. Those bishops work every day with how to deliver what the majority want, as soon as women clergy in their dioceses and see the fantastic possible? work that they are doing in the Church of England. That work must be valued and cherished, and we need to ensure that any changes do not square the circle by Sir Tony Baldry: I am sure that it must be possible to bringing forth proposals for women bishops who would resolve this issue. The important thing is to continue to be second-class bishops. I have made it clear to the work at it until it is resolved. An increasing number of General Synod on a number of occasions that Parliament ordinands coming into the Church are women, and we simply would not approve any Measure that introduced need to have a Church in which everyone is valued. I am women bishops as second-class bishops. sure that the right hon. Gentleman is correct is saying that, at present, a number of women out there in the clergy are feeling undervalued. That is wrong; they are Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): I am sure very much valued and cherished, and there needs to be that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the whole a full place for them in our national Church. House has sympathy with his position and great respect for the hard work that he has done in trying to resolve this matter. Does he agree that when the decision-making Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Since I was ordained body of the established Church deliberately sets itself as a priest in the Church of England 25 years ago, against the general principles of the society that it women have become vicars, rectors, deans, rural deans represents, its position as the established Church must and even archdeacons, so it is ludicrous that they cannot be called into question? now become bishops. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that we will have no truck with more Sir Tony Baldry: The hon. Lady makes a perfectly concessions to the hard-liners who want to make women good point, and it is one that I have repeatedly made. As second-rate bishops. We need to speed this up. Would it a consequence of the decision by the General Synod, not make sense to have a moratorium on the appointment the Church of England no longer looks like a national of any more male bishops until there could also be Church; it simply looks like a sect, like any other sect. If women bishops—no nomination without feminisation? it wishes to be a national Church that reflects the nation, it has to reflect the values of the nation. Sir Tony Baldry: Of course, we could have done that if the Prime Minister still had control over the appointment Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I thank the of bishops. hon. Gentleman for doing a wonderful, and rather thankless, job on this issue over the years on behalf of Mr Bradshaw: Take it back then. 721 Women Bishops22 NOVEMBER 2012 Women Bishops 722

Sir Tony Baldry: It was of course the right hon. Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): Probably not for the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) first time, I find myself in agreement with the hon. as Prime Minister who, without any proper consultation, Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and in disagreement renounced the ability of Downing street to have any with my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough influence over the control of bishops. I am encouraged (Mr Bone). I think that we are elected on a far more by the suggestions from Labour Members that the democratic basis than the House of Laity. Prime Minister should take back the power to appoint I believe that there is very strong support for this bishops, but I suspect that might create a few problems. Measure both in my constituency and in that of my I think everyone will have heard the point made by the hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen). We hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). share the most extraordinary Dean of Salisbury Cathedral, in the shape of the Rev. June Osborne. May we please Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I think my urge the bishops to adopt the suggestion made by the hon. Friend was wrong in what he said about the hon. Member for Rhondda of a moratorium? It is in Eurosceptics, because the Eurosceptics happen to be their control. They could do it themselves. I know that right. The important point, which I hope he will accept, it would be a complicated process, but it would be less is that it is not for this House to say how the established complicated than the fiendish voting structure that we Church is run. We may well have our own opinion, but saw yesterday. it is a very dangerous thing for the House of Commons If you will forgive me, Mr. Speaker, may I add that to tell the established Church how to run itself. my heart goes out to those women who will be standing up on Sunday and doing, in many cases, a superior job Sir Tony Baldry: I say, in all friendship to my hon. of bringing people to God and bringing the comfort of Friend, that as I sat through the debates in General Christianity to their constituents? This is disgraceful. Synod, it struck me that the Eurosceptics and the Please could we all share in some sort of message of conservative evangelicals had quite a lot in common in support? There will be change. We are behind this their approach. Nevertheless, he makes a serious point change. It has to happen. on which the House should reflect. Since 1919, it has been the convention that although Parliament has the Sir Tony Baldry: I am sure that women throughout ultimate control over the Church of England—it is an the Church will have heard the encouraging comments established Church, after all, and the Book of Common of my hon. Friend, and those of, I think, every other Prayer is but an annexe to the Act of Uniformity—the Member who has spoken so far. Church of England comes forward with its Measures, and if they are passed by the Church of England they Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I joined will be approved or otherwise by Parliament. I am sure the Movement for the Ordination of Women in 1976, my hon. Friend will understand that if the Church of and I find it incredible that we are still having this England is a national Church and an established Church, argument 36 years later. I am very pleased that the it is right and proper for Parliament to make clear its Second Church Estates Commissioner understands our views and opinions to the Church of England and for feelings about the urgent need for this Measure. the Church of England to hear what Parliament is May I suggest that too many concessions have been saying. made to those who are opposed to women priests? That is what has given them hope, and it is why they have Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): I am not continued to fight. It is simply unjust to do that at the involved with the Church of England and I am a expense of women in the Church. lifelong non-believer, but I want to say to the hon. Gentleman, whom I greatly admire for the stance he has Sir Tony Baldry: The hon. Lady’s comments demonstrate taken, that it is simply impossible to understand how on the difficulty of striking a balance between various earth it can be argued that if women are considered groups in the Church of England, and trying to ensure appropriate to be deacons and priests, as they have been that everyone feels that there is a continuing place for in the last 20 years, they are not worthy to be bishops. them in the Church. It has always been a broad Church, It is simply impossible to understand that. Will the and as far as possible we want to keep everyone in that hon. Gentleman also accept that, for many of us, this broad Church. However, I assure the hon. Lady that I opposition to women bishops bears comparison with know, and the House has made very clear, that Parliament the opposition 100 years ago to women having the right simply would not pass a Measure that discriminated to vote and to sit in the House of Commons? It is an against women, squaring the circle by trying to make anti-women attitude—a feeling that women have no them bishops but second-class bishops. Everyone has to place in public life, in religion or in politics—that I find understand that. contemptible. David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): I think it important Sir Tony Baldry: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. In for Parliament to express a view, but I also think that it fairness, if he reads the comments made by the Archbishop would be better for us to pass a short Bill requiring of Canterbury yesterday, he will find that the archbishop female bishops. We need to put the Church out of its said exactly the same as him—that it is intolerable to agony, and to end the antiquated voting system to have a situation where women can be priests, deacons, which my hon. Friend has referred. archdeacons and deans, yet not be bishops. In his own Is my hon. Friend aware that there is nothing new way, the hon. Gentleman is saying almost exactly the about female bishops? There is a ninth-century mosaic same as the Archbishop of Canterbury about this intolerable in a Roman basilica showing two saints, who are named, situation. the Virgin Mary, and a fourth woman who is clearly 723 Women Bishops22 NOVEMBER 2012 Women Bishops 724 described as Bishop Theodora: Theodora Episcopa. Is not the real problem that the Church of England is She was a female bishop. The Church has had them in entitled, by right, to places in an unreformed, unaccountable the past. and unelected House of Lords?

Sir Tony Baldry: The occasions in the past when Sir Tony Baldry: I think it is rather tough that a Parliament and the Church of England have gone head number of people are taking out their frustration on the to head on matters of worship and doctrine—there bishops, because the bishops gave clear leadership, with were disputes about the prayer book in the late 1920s, almost every single bishop who spoke and voted indicating for instance—are not happy precedents. I think it important that they want to have women bishops. They, too, are for the Church of England to listen very carefully to very keen to ensure that they are joined in the House of what Parliament is saying. Although, in my view, my Lords by women bishops. There could be no clearer right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was absolutely leadership in the Church than that given by the bishops right to say yesterday that the Church needed a “sharp of the Church of England on the fact that they want to prod”, I hope and believe that Parliament will give it have women bishops. time to sort itself out and get on with the issue, and I assure the House that we will do so as speedily as Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I welcome my possible. hon. Friend’s statement and agree wholly with what he was saying, and I particularly welcome the opportunity Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): Speaking of parliamentarians meeting the archbishop-designate. as one who is part of the wider Anglican communion, May I link two points that my hon. Friend made? I am profoundly saddened and disappointed by the Speaking as a Eurosceptic and as someone who has Church of England’s failure to make progress on the stood, unsuccessfully, for election to the House of Laity, role of women in spiritual and public life. It leaves us may I suggest to him that the House of Laity is about as with the continuing anomaly that seats for bishops in representative of opinion in the pews as the European the other place are available exclusively to men. I simply Parliament is of constituents? May I also urge him to do not believe that that is sustainable in a modern move forward as quickly as possible with a review of the democracy. Does the Commissioner believe that we electoral arrangements for the House of Laity? might, in fact, be doing the Church a favour by seeking to review its constitutional status? Sir Tony Baldry: It was my mistake for wandering down the route of commenting about Eurosceptics. Sir Tony Baldry: The hon. Lady is absolutely right to One thing that we were enjoined to do in the General remind us that the Church of England is part of a wider Synod was live in amity with all our colleagues, so I Anglican communion, and that the whole of the Anglican hope that I can always do that. My hon. Friend is communion will be looking at how the Church of correct in saying that a number of questions will continue England conducts itself. I agree with the comments that to be asked about the arrangements for electing the have been made about the Church reflecting, and I General Synod, because we simply cannot have a situation think that everyone in it needs to reflect on how out of where 42 out of 44 dioceses vote overwhelmingly for touch it now appears to Parliament—to every part and women bishops and that simply is not reflected in the every corner of the House of Commons. vote in the General Synod and the House of Laity—that is simply unsustainable. Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I pay tribute to the many women in my constituency who take part in the formal Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): and informal structures of the Church. They are very I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on all his work on important to rural life, and I know that my bishop—Peter this matter and thank him for it. I also wish to echo the Price, the Bishop of Bath and Wells—deeply appreciates sentiments that so many hon. Members have expressed the contribution of his large female work force. about the contribution that women in the Church make I agree with what has been said about women on in all our constituencies. Does he agree that the reaction boards. Might the hon. Gentleman be able to explain to that this has caused in the population as a whole, newer Members why this particular Church does not including on Twitter and in social media, has shown have to observe equalities legislation? how important this issue is to the nation and how important it is that Parliament acts? I include in that the Sir Tony Baldry: May I correct a point that seems to petition that has been started to raise the question as to be getting some coinage? The Church of England does whether there should be an automatic right for bishops not enjoy any particular exemption from sex equality to sit in the House of Lords if there are no women legislation. Obviously, equalities legislation is entirely a bishops. matter for this House, but the legislation that applies to the Church of England applies to all faith groups in this Sir Tony Baldry: The hon. Lady clearly demonstrates country.If Parliament were to seek to change the legislation, that the Church of England has to be a national Church. it would apply to every faith group. That is clearly a It is the Church of the Remembrance day services, it is matter for the House. the Church of the coronation and it is the Church of which the Queen is head as Head of State and Head of Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): The bishops sit in the the Church. One of the first things the Queen did House of Lords on the basis of a moral authority, and during her jubilee celebrations was attend a meeting at they vote on a range of issues, including equalities Lambeth palace that was attended by all faith groups. legislation. It is now clear that the views of the established What was very moving was that all those faith groups Church do not reflect the views of the British people, so said that they felt confident in freedom of religion for is it not time that the bishops left the House of Lords? them because of the role of the Church of England as 725 Women Bishops22 NOVEMBER 2012 Women Bishops 726

[Sir Tony Baldry] Sir Tony Baldry: I agree. It is a great sadness. I suspect that every right hon. and hon. Member has recently had the national Church. So the Church of England, as a representations from Church members on same-sex national Church, is failing the whole nation and other marriage. If the Church of England thinks that Parliament faith groups if it does not reflect our national character. will listen to it with considerable attention on moral issues such as same-sex marriage and so on when the Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): May I say, Mr Speaker, Church of England seems to be so out of step on other how much many of us supported the robust comments issues of concern to Parliament, it is simply deluding your Chaplain made in the media after this announcement itself. was made? My oldest friend is due to be ordained in 2014, and the Church will be lucky to have her, as she is someone of huge talent. But surely the Church sees that Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) it will not attract women of that calibre if they see that (Con): I must declare an interest in that my sister is a they will not be able to pursue the full extent of their vicar in the Church of England in your constituency, talents. Mr Speaker, and I personally own the living of a parish in Oxfordshire. Does my hon. Friend think that if Mrs Proudie had been the bishop rather than her husband, Sir Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend makes an extremely Obadiah Slope would have had a rather different career good point. We are very fortunate to have attracted into path? the Church over the past 20 years many women of extraordinary talent, leadership, skill and commitment. Indeed, the Church of England would not manage without Sir Tony Baldry: I suspect, Mr Speaker, that that is their skill, leadership and commitment. We need to be true. It is reassuring to discover that there are still able to continue to recruit people of that high calibre Members of this House who own livings of parishes in and I hope that we will continue to do so. the Church of England.

Mr Speaker: We are also all extremely fortunate in Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I caution my our Chaplain and I am most grateful to the hon. Member hon. Friend about comparisons between the EU and for Battersea (Jane Ellison) for what she said. the Church of England, as the EU forces people to vote and vote again until it gets the result it wants. Clearly, Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): I entirely the Church of England has shown itself to be completely agree with the hon. Gentleman’s remarks and many out of touch with the views not only of Parliament but people will appreciate the way in which he has put them. of the country at large. Is it not time now for the General It is clearly unsustainable for us to have an all-male Synod to review its whole decision-making process so episcopate. Does he agree that the decision sadly risks that it can reflect the wishes of its members? damaging the reputation of the Church in the eyes of many of our constituents? Will he consider working with the business managers to find a way for this House Sir Tony Baldry: The General Synod will have to to express its will and send a clear, unanimous and reflect on the comments made by my hon. Friend and courteous message to the General Synod that it needs to others about its effectiveness, about how it is elected think again? and about whether it represents members of the Church of England, the broader community and society as a Sir Tony Baldry: I shall certainly reflect on that whole. Historically and even today, church wardens interesting suggestion with the business managers and have been elected by the whole community because the Clerks. there is recognition that in every parish church wardens represent the community as a whole. We will have to James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con): consider how the laity elected to the General Synod can Given that a significant minority in the House of Laity reflect the broadest range of society—certainly among have spoken and said that women are not competent to those who are members of the Church of England and be bishops, will my hon. Friend, alongside me, call on perhaps among the community as a whole. I am quite that significant minority to launch an urgent review sure that will be reviewed in the coming months. into the competence of its own head of the Church of England? Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): As a Church of England believer, I have never understood how a woman Sir Tony Baldry: Those who voted against women can be head of the Church yet somehow women cannot bishops at General Synod did so because of their own be bishops. I urge that we consider bringing in a short particular theological convictions. While acknowledging Bill ordering that women should be able to be bishops those theological convictions, the Church now needs to in the Church of England. find a way to move forward as speedily as possible to ensure that women can be consecrated as bishops in the Church of England. Sir Tony Baldry: In the General Synod debate, part of which I sat through, there were some who argued that it Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Does the hon. Gentleman was impossible for women to have headship, and I just share my sadness and that of many other people that could not understand how they sought to reconcile that the Church has made itself appear so out of touch and with the fact that Parliament has made the Queen anachronistic in its decision making? The head of the defender of the faith and that we are fortunate enough Church of England is a woman, but in the 21st century to have her not only as Head of State, but as head of the we cannot have women bishops. Church. 727 Women Bishops 22 NOVEMBER 2012 728

Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): This week’s decision Business of the House reflects very badly on the Church, but also very unfairly; the Church, after all, is all the people who are part of it, not just one legislative committee. Does my hon. Friend 11.6 am therefore agree that, given that a large majority of them Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of have shown that they are as keen to have women bishops the House give us the business for next week? as we in this House are, the problem lies not with the members of the Church of England, but with the The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew paralysis of its decision-making structures? Lansley): The business for next week is as follows: MONDAY 26 NOVEMBER—Remaining stages of the Small Sir Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend is right to remind us Charitable Donations Bill. In addition, my right hon. at the end of these questions that the overwhelming Friend the Prime Minister plans to make a statement on majority of members of the Church of England want the EU Council. women bishops. It is now beholden on us all, whether in the Church of England or outside, to try to ensure that TUESDAY 27 NOVEMBER—Consideration in Committee happens as speedily as possible. and remaining stages of the European Union (Croatian Accession and Irish Protocol) Bill, followed by a motion to approve a Ways and Means resolution relating to the Growth and Infrastructure Bill. WEDNESDAY 28 NOVEMBER—Opposition day (11th allotted day). There will be a debate on an Opposition motion, subject to be announced. THURSDAY 29 NOVEMBER—A debate on a motion relating to Scotland and the Union, followed by a debate on a motion relating to the 40th anniversary of the expulsion of Ugandan Asians. The subjects for these debates have been nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. Lord Justice Leveson intends to publish his report on 29 November. The Prime Minister plans to make a statement to the House subsequently. FRIDAY 30 NOVEMBER—Private Members’ Bills. The provisional business for the week commencing 3 December will include: MONDAY 3DECEMBER—General debate on the Leveson inquiry.

TUESDAY 4DECEMBER—Remaining stages of the Public Service Pensions Bill, followed by a motion relating to the appointment of IPSA board members. WEDNESDAY 5DECEMBER—The Chancellor of the Exchequer will present his autumn statement, followed by consideration of an allocation of time motion, followed by all stages of the Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill. THURSDAY 6DECEMBER—Business to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

Ms Eagle: I thank the Leader of the House for announcing the business. The recent military conflict in Gaza has horrified many Members of the House. There is widespread relief that there is now a ceasefire, but it feels like the possibility of a lasting settlement is slipping away as facts on the ground make any agreement harder to reach. We welcome the fact that the Foreign Secretary made a statement to the House earlier this week. As the Leader of the House will know, the Palestinian leadership are applying for full observer status at the UN. The Opposition support that application. Before the vote at the UN, will the Leader of the House arrange for a debate on the matter in Government time? On the Justice and Security Bill, we had suggested to the Government a sensible way forward that would have given judges greater discretion and accepted the recommendations from the Joint Committee on Human Rights while at the same time ensuring that intelligence sources were protected. We regret that the Government 729 Business of the House22 NOVEMBER 2012 Business of the House 730

[Ms Angela Eagle] of the year now that Louise Mensch is no longer a Member of the House. Will the Leader of the House did not seek to work on a cross-party basis. Yesterday, suggest which Cabinet Minister we could nominate for on three separate occasions, they were defeated in the omnishambles of the year, because Labour Members other place when our Liberal Democrat colleagues joined think any number of them would be worthy winners? Labour and Cross-Bench peers to improve the Bill. Will the Leader of the House arrange for the roving Minister, Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe the House for her response, particularly on the arrangements (Mr Clarke), to make an urgent statement on how the for a debate, provisionally set for Monday 3 December, Government will now proceed? on the Leveson inquiry. We now have a date for the In business questions before the recess, I asked the publication of its report, and she asked further about Leader of the House about the forthcoming report by that. The House will have heard what the Secretary of Lord Leveson. I said the House should have an opportunity State for Culture, Media and Sport said. As the report to debate the report fully, and the Government should will be published in just a few days, it is absolutely right set out in advance the process for consideration of the that we should wait and see what Lord Leveson says in inquiry’s recommendations. May I therefore thank the it, and very shortly thereafter the House will have an Leader of the House for announcing a general debate in opportunity to express its views. Government time on the Leveson recommendations, The hon. Lady asked about the situation in the middle which we now understand will be published next Thursday? east. The Foreign Secretary made a statement on that, Does the Leader of the House agree that throughout and there were further questions at Prime Minister’s this process we must remember to listen to the voices of questions yesterday. I have no doubt that the Foreign the victims and their families, and also remember that Secretary will want to keep the House fully informed. this inquiry was the result of the gross intrusion they The Prime Minister said yesterday what we made clear suffered at times of maximum distress? Will the Leader last year at the United Nations General Assembly: that of the House therefore assure me that his Cabinet it would not be helpful for the question of observer colleagues, particularly the Education Secretary, will status for the Palestinian people to be brought to a vote. not seek to undermine Lord Leveson or his report? None the less, if that question is brought to a vote, the Will the Leader of the House ask the Deputy Prime Foreign Secretary will, of course, want to tell the House Minister to make a statement on the elections for police about our judgment on it. and crime commissioners, as his appearance at this The shadow Leader of the House asked about the week’s Deputy Prime Minister’s questions left none of progress of the Justice and Security Bill in another us any the wiser? The House has heard from the Home place. I and my colleagues will make it clear during the Secretary, but if the Leader of the House is successful in passage of the Bill in another place how we propose to coaxing the Deputy Prime Minister to the Dispatch respond to the progress of the Bill. We will look carefully Box we could ask the great strategist why he was so keen at the votes and think carefully about them, but there to hold these elections in November. So successful was is an important principle, which my right hon. and this strategy for getting out the Liberal Democrat vote learned Friend the Minister without Portfolio and others that the Liberal Democrats managed to win exactly have made clear: that in cases before civil courts the none of the elections they chose to contest last Thursday. judge should have access to all the evidence. That is also It appears that the Liberal Democrats used the PCC a principle of justice that it is important to seek to elections to test out their brand new election strategy. In maintain. north Wales, the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats I am very tempted to have a debate on police and endorsed one Winston Roddick, saying that crime commissioners, not least because it would allow “as an independent candidate, he is free from party political us an opportunity to set out clearly how, under this pressure”. coalition Government, crime across the country is falling. He was elected, but it was subsequently uncovered that Police and crime commissioners will be democratically Mr Roddick was, in fact, a member of the Liberal elected and democratically accountable to enable us not Democrats masquerading as an independent. May we only to sustain that reduction in crime, but to translate have an urgent debate on this new Liberal Democrat the priorities of the people directly into the priorities of election strategy to hoodwink people into voting for policing in their areas. I do not understand why Labour them? Members now want a debate about this. The Labour Has the Leader of the House had a chance to look at party did not seem to be able to work out whether it the winners of The Spectator parliamentarian awards? wanted to debate it, deny it, support it, oppose it, say it Will he join me in congratulating the Deputy Prime was the wrong thing to do and then stand candidates Minister on his award—for apology of the year? I for it. A debate would give us the opportunity to debate predict he will be up for it again next year. May I also the position not of the current Deputy Prime Minister, congratulate the Government Chief Whip, who won the but of the former Deputy Prime Minister. award for resurrection of the year? My only disappointment I was interested in what the hon. Lady said about is that I did not win tipster of the year for predicting Mr Winston Roddick as the police and crime commissioner that in this House. elected in North Wales. As it happened, my wife met Does the Leader of the House think we should him in Menai Bridge during the fair. He came up to her nominate Mr Roddick, the not-so-independent police and asked, “Do you know anything about the police and crime commissioner, for politician of the year, as he and crime commissioner elections?” She said, “As it is the only Liberal Democrat to have found an election- happens, I do.” Curiously—I have checked with her— winning strategy? The Education Secretary should be Mr Winston Roddick did not disclose any party affiliation given a special award for News International politician whatever. So there we have it. 731 Business of the House22 NOVEMBER 2012 Business of the House 732

I share with the House our admiration for many of House arrange for the relevant Minister to come to the those who were the recipients of awards from The House and make a statement to explain what we propose Spectator last night, but especially so for my right hon. to do to stop this in future? Friend the Patronage Secretary, who is an inspiration to all of us. Mr Lansley: I was not aware of those circumstances, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making me and Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Will the the House aware of them. I will of course raise the Leader of the House arrange for us to debate a motion matter with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State next week setting up a Committee of MPs who could for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and invite educate the chairman of the Independent Parliamentary him not only to respond to my hon. Friend but to Standards Authority about the work of the House? Did consider what form of statement it might be appropriate my right hon. Friend hear the admission by that gentleman to make. on this morning’s “Today” programme that although he understood a lot about what MPs do in their constituencies, Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): I he was totally ignorant about what they did in the hope that the Leader of the House will join me in House, other than, as he put it, attend a zoo for one congratulating Paula Dunn on her appointment as the hour every Wednesday? In the light of that amazing Paralympics head coach of UK Athletics. She is the demonstration of his ignorance, if he is to continue in first woman ever to have held that role. In relation to his post is it not essential that he gets educated properly? supporting what she and other coaches might do, we had questions earlier today on the legacy of the Olympics Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will know from the for women in sport and the legacy of the Paralympics statement that I made about forthcoming business that for disabled people, but no clear answers from Ministers, my expectation is that in the week after next we will be so may we have a debate in Government time on exactly able to debate the appointment of Members to the what is happening and going to happen as regards the board of IPSA—not the chair of the board of IPSA, action needed to address those important legacy issues? whose tenure continues. In my conversations with Ian Kennedy he has made it clear to me that one of the Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising things that he regards as most important is that there that issue. I think that Members of the House will share is a better understanding of the work of Members of with her a sense of the real potential that the Olympics Parliament. I will further encourage him in that process. and the Paralympics gave for a legacy that is vital not Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Could only in respect of development in sport but of social we find time for a debate on policing in London, change and understanding of the position of disabled specifically the proposal announced by the Met for a people in society. It is almost difficult to talk about major programme of closures and downgrading of police people being disabled when the thing that came most to stations across the city? May we have an opportunity the fore when watching the Paralympics was that we all during that debate to discuss the fact that police stations have very different abilities. The Paralympics seemed are already closing in advance of that consultation, largely to consist of people whose abilities were far in including Marylebone and St John’s Wood in the London excess of mine and those of us who think of ourselves borough of Westminster? It is not acceptable for our as not disabled. In truth, we all have very different constituents to face the loss and downgrading of police abilities, and that very much came to the forefront; I stations with no opportunity for anyone in Parliament thought it was very persuasive. The House is considering to discuss that matter Olympic legacy issues through the Culture, Media and Sport Committee. I will talk to my colleagues about Mr Lansley: It is not that there is no opportunity for how we might find an opportunity to discuss and debate such discussion. I recall that during the previous Business those issues, but it might also be considered by the questions the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) Backbench Business Committee. raised issues relating to fire and rescue service stations across London and was subsequently able to secure a Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) debate on that subject. It is primarily a matter for the (Con): I have given the Leader of the House notice of Mayor of London as the commissioner of policing in my question, which is to do with my constituent, Katie London and for the London Assembly, but we here and Lock. Katie applied to work at the Olympics and got all those representing London here should have an opportunity the way through the training for the company, but her to secure a debate. application was turned down by the Home Office. The Home Office has been singularly unhelpful at all stages Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): My parliamentary in finding out why this young girl’s application was neighbour and hon. Friend the Member for South turned down. May we have time to discuss this, because Thanet (Laura Sandys) is attending a conference this I am sure that she cannot be the only person to whom morning and so is unable to be here, but I share her this has happened? concern about what happened yesterday when a ship carrying live animals sailed from the port of Ramsgate Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who did in her constituency in appalling weather. The ship should indeed raise this with me. I will ensure that he gets as never have been allowed to sail at all. It went halfway full and complete a reply as I can secure for him from across the channel, turned back and had to unload the the Home Office as soon as I can. animals, which were then transported a long way across the country in absolute misery.This is absolutely intolerable, Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The and it is done in the name of free trade. It is not a matter House will remember the triumph of the Olympics. for an Adjournment debate. Will the Leader of the The only slight blemish was the security company G4S, 733 Business of the House22 NOVEMBER 2012 Business of the House 734

[Mr Barry Sheerman] Several hon. Members rose— which got into serious trouble and could not deliver the Mr Speaker: A large number of right hon. and hon. security that we expected. We were saved by our great Members are seeking to catch my eye. As usual, I am troops, who stepped into the breach. Is the Leader of anxious to accommodate as many of them as possible. the House aware that G4S is now trying to ameliorate The House will be conscious of the fact that there is an its financial position as regards the Olympics by failing important Government statement and three pieces of to pay its supply chain and sub-contractors? Is not that business under the auspices of the Backbench Business a disgrace given that many of those sub-contractors Committee to follow. That information serves to underline performed absolutely to their contracts? the imperative of short questions and answers. We will be led in our mission by Mr Robert Halfon. Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman raises an issue that I freely confess I was unaware of, although it may have been evident to the Home Affairs Committee consequent Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Has my right hon. on its inquiries. From the House’s point of view, one of Friend seen early-day motion 686 on compensation for the routes to inquire into what happened in relation to Zimbabwean farmers who had their land stolen by G4S is through that Committee. Mugabe? [That this House calls on the World Bank and the Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Does the Leader of the Zimbabwe government to respect the International House agree that we could debate the priorities of the Centre for the Settlement of Investment Disputes (ICSID) Environment Agency’s maintenance programme, court ruling in April 2009 that granted compensation of particularly in Somerset, where there has been catastrophic EUR22.5 million to Zimbabwean and European farmers, flooding over the summer and throughout this autumn, including Timolene Tibbett, who were illegally and often including yesterday and today? Water is lying in the fields brutally thrown off their land during the Mugabe land for weeks, and that increases its toxicity so that it eventually reform in 2000 and 2001; believes that settlement of this kills off the fish, birds and other wildlife when it is claim will demonstrate a commitment to international released into the rivers; it is unable to be drained away law from the coalition Zimbabwe government and build or pumped from those hundreds of acres of agricultural confidence with international investors that arbitration land. Is it not time to rebalance these priorities and look ruling for investments, no matter how small or large, will at the value of wildlife over food and farming? be respected to created jobs and opportunities in Zimbabwe; and cautions the World Bank against adopting the incoherent Mr Lansley: It is important to recognise that the position of progressing with a debt write-off programme Government have put in place partnership funding with the Zimbabwe government whilst not ensuring the arrangements with local authorities that are contributing Zimbabwe government honours the legal commitments to substantial enabling schemes to deter flooding. We arrived at via proceedings of the ICSID, which is a World expect to exceed our objective of 145,000 households Bank court.] being better protected by March 2015. In addition, I May we have a debate on Zimbabwe to ensure that we will talk to the Secretary of State for Environment, get justice and compensation for farmers, including my Food and Rural Affairs because it is important not only constituent, Timolene Tibbett? that we have adequate flood protection, but that the means by which we provide it are environmentally sensitive. In the wake of the flooding in my constituency in 2001, Mr Lansley: I am sure that, like me, the House will we were able to recreate some floodplains, which was an have seen my hon. Friend’s early-day motion. I hope environmentally responsible way to provide flood protection. that we can find an opportunity for such a debate. To accelerate the process, it might be advisable for him and Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): Given the Government’s others to seek time to discuss the issue on the Adjournment. 20% cut to policing, which has necessitated a cut in the number of front-line police officers of 15,000 nationally Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Given the and 100 in Croydon, may I echo the request of my hon. Government’s promise to review the way in which the Friend the Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) work capability test is carried out, may we have a for an urgent debate on policing in London so that statement on their progress, because to many Members voters have the unequivocal facts before they go to the it seems that nothing is improving? polls next week? Mr Lansley: The Secretary of State for Work and Mr Lansley: I encourage the hon. Lady to look in the Pensions made a written ministerial statement yesterday Official Report at the questions that the Home Secretary on the further report by Professor Harrington, which answered last Monday, because I do not recognise her has enabled us to make considerable progress in improving figures on the number of front-line police officers. Indeed, the work capability assessment. the proportion of officers on the front line is increasing, as is their effectiveness, as we can see from the further reduction in crime across the country that was reported Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): May I recently. The first thing we should do is express our return to flooding, which adversely affected my Tewkesbury appreciation of the effectiveness with which police forces constituency yesterday? Given that further heavy rainfall across the country are addressing the necessity of managing is predicted for tonight, will the Leader of the House within reduced budgets. We should support police and alert the relevant Departments that they may need to crime commissioners in taking that forward and in make a statement or respond to an urgent question on responding to local priorities. Monday? 735 Business of the House22 NOVEMBER 2012 Business of the House 736

Mr Lansley: Many of us have experienced flooding, to write to her with details on that case. My recollection to varying degrees, in our constituencies. I know that is that the tender is often for patient transport services, my hon. Friend’s constituency has experienced serious rather than emergency responses, and one should be flooding in the past and is at risk now. It is important careful to distinguish between those two things. There that we keep the House fully informed—my hon. Friend are examples elsewhere in the country of where patient will make sure that we do—about the steps that the transport services are not administered by the local Government can take, through both the Department ambulance service trust but a good service is maintained for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the none the less. Department for Communities and Local Government in supporting local authorities. I know that I do not Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): My constituent, need to encourage those Departments to keep the House Vaughan Williams, served on the arctic convoys during and Members fully informed. the second world war—a journey that Winston Churchill described as the worst in the entire world. Foreign Office Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): May we have an rules prevent Mr Williams from receiving the medal he urgent debate or statement on the devastating report was awarded by the Russian Government, who recognised that was published this morning by the chief inspector that he had risked his life to fight Nazism. May we have of the borders and immigration service? It revealed that a debate on the bravery of those who served on the in Liverpool there are 100,000 letters from Members of arctic convoys, and on the inappropriateness of rules Parliament and the public that have not been opened. that prevent full recognition of such bravery? When may we have a debate on that important issue? Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend may seek to secure such Mr Lansley: The UK Border Agency chief executive a debate on the Adjournment of the House or through will have written to the right hon. Gentleman as Chair the Backbench Business Committee, and judging from of the Home Affairs Committee to address some of the the response in the House he may be supported in that. issues raised by the report and make clear that UKBA I recall—as no doubt he does—that at Prime Minister’s has accepted all the chief inspector’s recommendations. questions a couple of weeks ago the Prime Minister The chief inspector was clear that UKBA is now tackling made it clear that he will look personally at the question those problems—and has been since April 2012—although of a service medal relating to the arctic convoys. I would not diminish the scale of the legacy problems it inherited and some of the difficulties and errors that Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): Is have occurred. My colleagues in the Home Office are the Leader of the House aware of intense media speculation determined to ensure that UKBA not only deals with in recent days that the UK Government will not get any those legacy issues, but that it continues to improve the EU funding for carbon capture and storage in the service it provides, and they will report on that to the current round because they have failed to provide funding House. guarantees? So far, the Department of Energy and Climate Change has refused to deny those rumours, Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): May I press the which are causing great uncertainty and sending mixed Leader of the House on the present crisis in the middle messages on the UK Government’s commitment to east and urge him to reconsider and try to find time for carbon capture and storage. May we therefore have a an urgent debate so that the House can make clear its statement from the Department at the earliest opportunity? views? Mr Lansley: My colleagues at the Department have Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will be aware, not least made it clear that, among other commitments, they will from the statement I have just made, of the many pressing make an annual energy statement at some point this issues that the House has to consider. There are year. I will raise that issue with them, but they are aware opportunities through the Backbench Business Committee of it—the Government’s commitment to carbon capture for Members to pursue those issues, which may—and and storage has been made very clear on a number of often have—extend to international affairs. occasions.

Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab): May I ask Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Last week, the Leader of the House for an urgent statement or I visited a school in Tamworth, where a 16-year-old debate on the privatisation of Greater Manchester history student asked, “Who is Napoleon?” They had ambulance service? As he may know, the contract to also not heard of the Duke of Wellington. May we run part of this important service was recently awarded therefore have a debate on extending rigour in education, to Arriva—yes, that is the bus and train company—despite particularly in the teaching of history—history student the NHS bid winning on quality and service. Arriva was numbers fell by 1.2% in 2011—so that future generations given the contract on cost alone. Patients and carers of history students know our history and chronology, across Greater Manchester are rightly worried that the and that the Duke of Wellington was a soldier and quality of their service will suffer as a result, and that statesman, and not a public house? they have been consigned to a poorer quality service than the rest of the north-west region. Mr Lansley: The Duke of Wellington in Bourn in my constituency is well known for that purpose. My hon. Mr Lansley: I am sure the House will wish to welcome Friend makes a good, important point well. My right the hon. Lady to her place. Decisions on contracts of hon. Friend the Secretary of State Education is among that kind are made locally within the national health those at the vanguard of believing that an understanding service, not centrally by the Secretary of State, but I will of history, and of the narratives that form an essential ask my ministerial friends in the Department of Health part of it, is an essential part of our understanding of 737 Business of the House22 NOVEMBER 2012 Business of the House 738

[Mr Lansley] Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): May we have a debate on yesterday’s report on sexual who we are and where we come from, and what kind of grooming by gangs? people we are and what we can achieve. From that point of view, I am sure the Secretary of State shares my hon. Mr Lansley: The House will have been shocked, as Friend’s view—as will Members on both sides of the my hon. Friend no doubt was, by the report. The House—that we must ensure we achieve such understanding House, through the Backbench Business Committee, of the history of this country in schools. was able to debate child sexual exploitation last week. The issue has been debated, but we must press forward, Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): May we have a and my colleagues are doing so with the tackling child debate on the situation that arose in north Wales, where sexual exploitation action plan and other measures. The a Liberal Democrat pretended to be an independent? interim report made a number of recommendations There is evidence that that has happened in still higher-status that we must pursue. We must also look at the positions than police and crime commissioner—in the recommendations from phase 2 next year, but be ready Deputy Prime Minister, we have a Tory pretending to now to take all the action we can, as illustrated by my be a Liberal Democrat. hon. Friends’ response to last week’s debate.

Mr Lansley: I cannot speak from personal experience Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): The Father of Mr Winston Roddick in north Wales, but I referred of the House, the right hon. Member for Louth and to the matter earlier in response to the shadow Leader of Horncastle (Sir Peter Tapsell), during a statement earlier the House. To that extent, I have some knowledge of it. this week, called for a full debate in Government time on the situation in the middle east. The response of the Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): May Leader of the House today was as incoherent on the we have an early debate on crime prevention, so that issue as the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary police forces around the country can learn from the were in trying to justify not supporting Palestinian excellent hands off project, created by Bedfordshire statehood. This is a serious situation with a fragile police, in which owners’ property is marked by their ceasefire, the threat of a ground attack and 160 dead. DNA? That has been used successfully and enthusiastically May we have a debate as soon as possible? in schools, and has great potential to cut crime. Mr Lansley: We will of course consider that. I had a Mr Lansley: That sounds like an intriguing, if slightly conversation with my right hon. Friend the Member for alarming, mechanism. I had heard of highlighter pens, Louth and Horncastle (Sir Peter Tapsell) and he was but not of DNA marking. Members and police services clear in encouraging us to consider having a debate on might be interested in that. My hon. Friend will no doubt the middle east. I have not been able to find time now, agree that that illustrates the importance of innovation but it is open to hon. Members to seek such a debate and new technology as essential parts of the process of using the time available to the Backbench Business fighting crime. I hope police and crime commissioners Committee. Likewise, it is open to the Opposition, will demonstrate not only their responsiveness to public which has time for a debate next week should they wish views, but their ability to embrace innovation. to use it for that purpose. I think what I said was simply a reflection of what has been said many times by the Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Halton is the 27th most Government and was repeated by the Foreign Secretary deprived borough in England and Wales, and has high on Tuesday: what we want to do is secure the best unemployment. I was therefore shocked to receive a possible progress in negotiations and use the ceasefire letter last week from the permanent secretary at the to make progress quickly. His response illustrated that Department for Education informing me that it was urgency and the Government’s view that precipitating a shutting its Runcorn site, with the loss of 220 jobs. The vote at the United Nations was not necessarily the best letter states that a report would be available on the way of making progress. website, but it was not. Only through the good work of the permanent secretary’s office did I manage eventually to find the report, but it left more questions unanswered Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): than answered. May I ask the Leader of the House for May we have a debate in Government time on community his help? Does he agree the Department should brief first responders, in particular on maintaining and improving MPs in detail on the reasons for decisions of that training capacity? They do such a lot to ensure that magnitude, so that we can ask questions? Will he use his people in rural areas are looked after when ambulance influence and ask his colleagues in the Department to response times are often so slow. ensure that the meeting I have requested happens sooner rather than later? Mr Lansley: I share completely my hon. Friend’s support for and appreciation of community first responders. Mr Lansley: I will of course ask my hon. Friends at Ambulance service trusts across the country have achieved the Department for Education whether they can meet the most consistent performance to date in responding the hon. Gentleman as he has requested. I do not know to category A calls. However, while they meet the overall the circumstances, but I judge from what he says that the targets well, we know that response time is variable and Department’s intention, through the permanent secretary, particularly difficult in rural areas. Those of us who was to inform him of the decision. I will check how that represent more rural areas appreciate how community was achieved to ensure that he and Members get notification first responders can make an important, additional of announcements affecting their constituencies in future. contribution. 739 Business of the House22 NOVEMBER 2012 Business of the House 740

Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): Can we have a particularly considering that the current scheme is achieving debate on the ever-increasing price of gas and electricity, better value for taxpayers than previous schemes and and the obscene profits posted by the organisations that capital is being used to provide the extra school who provide those utilities? Mr John Bisset, who is a places we need? community activist in my constituency, said that when he goes to the post office each week many elderly people Mr Lansley: I would be delighted if that opportunity approach him and say that they are unsure of the were to arise, particularly given that secondary schools Government’s position, following the Prime Minister’s are now being built for £6 million less, on average, than recent statements. I hope that such a debate will allow under the Building Schools for the Future programme. us to clarify that position. I have seen evidence of that in my own constituency, where a new school is being built, as a free school, Mr Lansley: I imagine that the hon. Gentleman will employing composite laminated timbers prefabricated therefore have been appreciative and attentive when the in Yorkshire and Humberside. Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change gave evidence to the Select Committee. He made it clear Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): May we have an that—as the Prime Minister and Ministers have said at urgent debate on the living wage, so that we can explore the Dispatch Box, and as I repeated at previous business why councils such as Tory Croydon, which does not pay questions—we will ensure that people have access to the the living wage to its employees, charges a higher level best possible tariffs. That is exactly what the Secretary of council tax than neighbouring Labour Lambeth, of State has now made clear we will do, and further which does? announcements will be made shortly. Mr Lansley: The right hon. Gentleman might like to Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): We were talk to his own Front-Bench team about whether they all inspired by the success of our sporting heroes this wish to discuss the matter, as Opposition time is available summer. The challenge now is to get ordinary people next Wednesday. He might like to press that case on involved in local sports, so can we have a debate about them. I would be happy to debate the matter, however, grass-roots community sport and the vital work of our because it would enable us to discuss not only our county sports partnerships? Will the right hon. Gentleman support for a living wage but the efficiency and value also commend West Yorkshire Sport in my area for for money delivered by Conservative local authorities putting on the first Olympic legacy “Be Inspired, Get relative to Labour ones. Involved” community sports fair next Wednesday at Lawnswood school? Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): On 18 October, the House passed a motion calling on the Government Mr Lansley: Yes, I very much appreciate that. In my to reverse their decision to disband the 2nd Battalion experience, sports partnerships have made tremendous the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. May we have a statement strides in enabling competitive sport to prosper in schools on when and how the Government propose to respond around the country and have not limited but encouraged to that motion? wider participation in sport among young people. That is why, as Secretary of State for Health, I provided Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will recall that Ministers additional financial support to organisers of sports responded not only at the time but at questions subsequently. partnerships. I share my hon. Friend’s view. We have The Army will continue to implement the changes discussed this point previously at business questions, announced on 5 July by my right hon. Friend the and I hope that initiatives will emerge that enable us to Secretary of State or Defence, and further uncertainty debate the sporting legacy and the future of sport in for serving Fusiliers would be unhelpful. We now need this country, given the tremendous opportunity we have to support them through the battalion merger as they following the Olympics and Paralympics. look to the future.

Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): The Deputy Prime Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): When Minister today rejected my request in a parliamentary will the Leader of the House schedule a debate about question that we ensure that independents standing for the misery that falling real wages are causing to the living election declare any political party membership at the standards of millions of people across our country? time of their nomination. Given what my hon. Friend Is he aware that this morning the Office for National the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) said about Winston Statistics published data showing that wages rose by Roddick in my area of north Wales and given the only 1.3%, on average, across the UK and by only sympathy I sense the Leader of the House has with this 0.9% in Scotland, but that the inflation rate has been, issue, may we have an early debate on transparency of on average, 3.1%? Is that not another example of the independents at local, national and regional elections? Government’s complete economic incompetence?

Mr Lansley: Those issues are governed by statute, Mr Lansley: If the hon. Gentleman wants to persuade and an opportunity to discuss them might arise in a his hon. Friends to have a debate on the economy next debate on electoral registration and administration in week, we will be happy to have that. We could explain due course. how inflation has fallen, how unemployment is rising, how we have cut the deficit by a quarter, how we have Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): spending under control and how we have low interest Harrogate high school is receiving funding for a complete rates as a consequence of the confidence that people rebuild from the priority school building programme. across the world have in the Government’s fiscal May we have a debate on capital investment in schools, consolidation. I know that he and the right hon. Member 741 Business of the House22 NOVEMBER 2012 Business of the House 742

[Mr Lansley] which is an essential part of public service and commercial broadcasting—in a way that maintains high standards. for East Ham (Stephen Timms) are interested in the level That is the balance—I think we will be debating this a of the minimum wage and living wage. That and other lot in coming weeks—of achieving freedom and having issues, including equal marriage, will be debated by the a mechanism of scrutiny and accountability, which a Youth Parliament in the Chamber tomorrow. They free press and free broadcasters enable us to have, while might like to watch. maintaining high standards.

Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Will my Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East right hon. Friend ensure that when the House considers Cleveland) (Lab): May we have a statement on why the the order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998—a Government have overspent by £1 billion on their significant piece of constitutional legislation, giving the misapplication of the academies programme, as outlined Scottish Parliament the power to conduct a referendum by the National Audit Office? Its report says: that has the ability to affect the entire constitutional “DfE was unprepared for the scale of the financial implications” position of the United Kingdom—it will do so on the of this rapid expansion. Can such a statement indicate Floor of the House and for a whole day? where budget cuts to children’s services, funding cuts to underperforming schools and funding cuts to 16 to Mr Lansley: I have not been able to announce that 19-year-olds staying on in education have been made, business yet, but I will fully take into account my hon. and also provide an explanation to Department for Friend’s views when we schedule it in future. Education staff in the Tees valley who have recently been sacked? Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): In July, the then Secretary of State for Environment, Food Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will no doubt have and Rural Affairs told me that there was to be an read the National Audit Office report to which he announcement about the new agreement between the referred, which also says that the rapid expansion of insurance industry and the Government on flooding academies schools was a significant achievement, which insurance. Some 500 of my constituents wrote to the it is. It will have important benefits, through the increased new Secretary of State recently but have not had a autonomy and accountability that it brings and by response. With the inclement weather, flooding is obviously delivering improved standards for our children. That is becoming more of an issue. Can the Leader of the an investment worth making. As for future debates, no House tell us when that statement is to be expected? doubt there will be an opportunity at questions or for the Liaison Committee to consider whether it wishes to Mr Lansley: I recall the Secretary of State making it follow up on that report. clear at questions recently that continuing progress was being made in those discussions, but that there were Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): May complex discussions to be had with the Association of we have a debate on the importance of the post office British Insurers and others. I will of course discuss the network, which in my constituency provides such an matter with my right hon. Friend. The hon. Lady is important public service? My constituents will welcome absolutely right that under the current circumstances the fact that it recently won the new Driver and Vehicle people will be reassured if such a statement can be made, Licensing Agency contract and that over £1.3 billion is but clearly it is dependent on the outcome of negotiations. being invested in the network, so that we can finally say that the era of post office closures in this country Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): is over. In recent weeks it has become clear that the Bureau of Investigative Journalism’s work on the BBC “Newsnight” Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for investigation into allegations of child abuse in north raising that. Hon. Members have often asked me about Wales was highly inaccurate and lacked even the most it, and I could quite properly say nothing about it that basic journalistic rigour. On Monday 12 November, I would be prejudicial to continuing contract negotiations. wrote to the bureau asking journalists there to detail But now that the contract has been won, I am pleased to any payments they had received from the BBC for that say that we can really celebrate the fact that the Post work and to return this licence fee payers’ money. As yet Office has won it. I think Members across the House I have had no response. Can we have an urgent debate will appreciate it, and as we made clear in the past, it on whether an investigation should be carried out into allows us to ensure that the Post Office can not only whether any organisation profited from this shoddy secure business from Government, but maintain its work of journalism, which has caused distress to so offer of business in many communities across the country many and so damaged the reputation of the BBC? that were threatened under the last Government.

Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): May we raises an important point. Many colleagues will share have an early debate on the Charity Commission in his view about this. I can reassure him that the Department England, with a view to reviewing the Charities Act 2006 for Culture, Media and Sport has provided no public to ensure that previously accepted religious charities, funding to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism. such as the Plymouth Brethren, are not threatened with Broadcasters are independent of Government, so whether the removal of their charitable status? they work with the bureau or any other organisation is a matter for them, but it is also incumbent on them Mr Lansley: I will, of course, discuss the matter with to ensure that they maintain the tradition of strong my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, investigative journalism—which we all appreciate and Media and Sport. I have had occasion to meet, by way 743 Business of the House22 NOVEMBER 2012 Business of the House 744 of example, members of the Plymouth Brethren in my Mr Lansley: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I constituency, who have raised these issues with me, and think he might say to Atlantic college that if imitation is I will of course discuss them with my colleagues. the sincerest form of flattery, the examination system in this country is increasingly going to imitate the initiative Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) from those decades ago. I know from my constituency (Con): Earlier this year, the all-party group on pharmacy that those who have used the IB have thought it a very published its report on the shortage of medicines from successful means of reassuring themselves about standards. local pharmacies. The group had a meeting earlier this I hope that the English baccalaureate, as announced by week with my noble Friend Earl Howe, the Health my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education Minister responsible for pharmacy, to give us an update last September, will enable us to apply some of those on the Department of Health’s progress, which was not principles successfully across the school system. As for as fulsome as I would have liked it to be. May we please a debate, I do not have immediate time available, but I have a debate on that important issue, so that my know that the House would appreciate the opportunity constituents can know where they stand on the future to debate the subject as soon as we can. supply of the important medicines on which they depend? Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I attended the Huddersfield Examiner business awards earlier this Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will be aware, because month, and saw at first hand all the wonderful, enterprising we discussed the subject when I was Secretary of State businesses going out there and making it happen, and for Health, that the supply chain for medicines is very I proudly wear the “Huddersfield Place to Make It” complicated, and that it can be a very small number of campaign badge, which celebrates manufacturing in medicines that are in short supply at any given moment, Huddersfield and my Colne Valley constituency. May sometimes for reasons outside anyone’s control. For we have a debate on all the wonderful, enterprising example, recently there were fires in Italy, which led to businesses in our constituencies that are going out there the inability to access the right medicines at the right creating jobs and creating wealth for our nation, in time; but in so far as it can be managed, the Department sharp contrast to the doom-mongering mithering from has been pursuing supply chain initiatives that are intended the Opposition Benches? to enable that to happen. I will talk to my hon. Friends at the Department of Health. I know they will want to Mr Lansley: Huddersfield has a proud legacy of be as helpful as they possibly can be in showing how we manufacturing and an inspiring future in it, too. The can improve reassurance for patients about their access Government are setting out to ensure that we rebalance to medicines. our economy. We understand that we are going to have to pay our way in the world in a global race, not least by Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): The currency reinvigorating the manufacturing heritage of this country or value of GCSEs has been undermined over the past with new technologies, first-class innovation and very 15 years or so. Atlantic college, based in my constituency, high productivity. I know that Yorkshire and Humberside established the international baccalaureate some 50 years will be at the forefront of that. The regional growth ago, and has maintained the rigour of that qualification. fund projects have demonstrated how many good projects May we have a general debate on qualifications, to are coming forward. It will not have escaped my hon. expose the failure over the past 15 years and to learn Friend’s notice that, later today, the House will have a from other organisations how we can maintain rigour in debate in Backbench Business Committee time to discuss our qualification system? the reinvigoration of manufacturing in this country. 745 22 NOVEMBER 2012 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners) 746

Voting Eligibility (Prisoners) The judgment requires the Government to bring forward legislative proposals for Parliament to consider. It will 12 noon then be for Parliament to scrutinise and to decide on them. So I have today laid before Parliament a draft Bill The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice for pre-legislative scrutiny, and the Leaders of both (Chris Grayling): I wish to make a statement about the Houses are writing to the Liaison Committees proposing Government’s approach to the judgments of the European that a Joint Committee of both Houses be appointed to Court of Human Rights on prisoner voting. This is a conduct that pre-legislative scrutiny. We judge that pre- subject that provokes intense debate, not least in this legislative scrutiny of this nature is appropriate, given House. The House will know that, from as early as the the significance of this issue and the strong views on case of Hirst in 2004, the Court found the United both sides that exist right across this House. Kingdom’s bar on prisoners voting to be “general, The draft Bill sets out three different potential approaches automatic and indiscriminate”, and concluded that it for the Committee to consider. Presenting a draft Bill was, in the Court’s view, in violation of article 3, protocol with that range of options reflects the spectrum of 1 of the European convention on human rights, which views that we know exist on this question. However, it covers the right to free and fair elections. will of course be for the Committee, once established, The previous Government committed to implement to consider whether approaches beyond those canvassed the judgment, and issued two consultations which did in the draft Bill should also be considered by Parliament not resolve the issue. Litigation has continued in the in due course. domestic and Strasbourg courts. In the case of Greens The first approach in the draft Bill is for prisoners and MT in 2010, the Strasbourg Court again found that sentenced to less than four years to be entitled to vote. the UK was in violation of article 3, protocol 1 of the A four-year bar has previously been discussed by convention, and gave the UK six months to bring Parliament. The second approach would limit the vote forward legislative proposals to remove the violation. to prisoners sentenced to six months or less. The final That deadline was stayed pending the UK’s intervention approach would effectively restate the current position in a further case, Scoppola, involving the Italian that anyone incarcerated following conviction would Government. In that case, the Attorney-General argued not have the vote. in person before the Court that national Parliaments’ discretion to determine policy on this issue should The Committee will want to consider these approaches, allow for a complete bar on prisoners voting. their consequences if they were in due course adopted by Parliament, and whether there are other options—for The judgment in the Scoppola case was handed down example, the Italian system, found to be compliant by in May of this year. It concludes the Strasbourg Court’s the Court, which disfranchises prisoners post-release. consideration of the issue. In that judgment, the Court The Committee will, I am sure, consider evidence on made it clear that, in its view, the “margin of appreciation” this and other approaches. It may also want to reflect afforded to individual Council of Europe member states on the consequences for the rule of law and the UK’s to decide on how far prisoners should be enfranchised international standing of Parliament’s ultimate decision. was wide, but confirmed its position that a complete bar The Committee may also wish to think about practical was outside that margin. The judgment restarted the implementation. The administrative consequences and clock on Greens and MT, and it requires the Government costs for the Prison Service, the courts and the electoral to “bring forward legislative proposals” to give effect to registration system and electoral registration officers of the judgment by tomorrow, 23 November, and to enact different approaches could be significant. the required legislation. The House will want to note that this draft Bill does The Prime Minister has made clear, on the record, his not yet deal with territorial extent. Any Bill introduced personal views on this subject, and I have done the same. into Parliament would need to extend to the whole of Those views have not changed. However, the Government the United Kingdom, although the Bill is currently are under an international law obligation to implement drafted for England and Wales only. The Government the Court judgment. As Lord Chancellor, as well as will engage with the devolved Administrations during Secretary of State for Justice, I take my obligation to the pre-legislative scrutiny process to ensure that the uphold the rule of law seriously. Equally, it remains the legislation applies correctly in Northern Ireland and case that Parliament is sovereign, and the Human Rights Scotland, in recognition of the interaction with devolved Act 1998 explicitly recognises that fact. The current law policy matters,. passed by Parliament remains in force unless and until Parliament decides to change it. As Lord Justice Hoffmann When the Joint Committee has finished its scrutiny, put it in a case in 1999: the Government will reflect on its recommendations. “Parliamentary sovereignty means that Parliament can, if it We will continue the legislative process by introducing chooses, legislate contrary to fundamental principles of human a Bill for full debate and scrutiny as soon as possible rights. The Human Rights Act 1998 will not detract from this thereafter. power. The constraints upon its exercise by Parliament are ultimately I have set out in some detail for the House the political, not legal. But the principle of legality means that background to the draft legislation that I am publishing Parliament must squarely confront what it is doing and accept the today, and the respective roles of Government and political cost.” Parliament in resolving this issue. I commend this statement Last month, the Attorney-General made it clear in to the House. evidence to the Justice Committee that “it is entirely a matter for Government to make proposals but 12.7 pm ultimately for Parliament to determine what it wants to do. Parliament is sovereign in this area; nobody can impose a solution Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I thank the Justice Secretary on Parliament, but the accepted practice is that the United for allowing advance sight of his statement. This issue Kingdom observes its international obligations”. has been controversial since the 2004 Hirst v. UK case 747 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners)22 NOVEMBER 2012 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners) 748 when the European Court of Human Rights ruled our a membership of which Labour Members are proud. blanket ban on prisoner voting was contrary to article 3, We acknowledge its role in protecting human rights protocol 1 of the convention. The Labour Government throughout Europe for more than 60 years, and the disagreed with the Court’s decision. It is not, and never fact that it gives the United Kingdom more leverage has been, Labour’s position to give prisoners the vote. over other countries that are less scrupulous in their That is why we appealed the decision and continued to approach to human rights. It allows us to press others challenge it until we lost office. to improve their human rights records, just as the Under this Government, I am afraid, there has been a Foreign Secretary rightly did this week with the Syrian lack of consistency on prisoner voting. On 20 December opposition coalition. 2010—the last day before the Christmas recess—this Parliamentarians need to know the Government’s Government snuck out a written ministerial statement legal advice on what is needed to enable our obligations announcing that prisoners on sentences of under four years under the convention to be discharged. We also need to would get the vote. This meant roughly 30,000 prisoners be clear about the ramifications of any decisions that getting the vote. Information we sought showed that Parliament makes, as there is a risk that choosing the 4,188 offenders convicted and sent to prison for burglary wrong option could lead to compensation claims from would get the vote—so much for this Government prisoners and to our being in breach of the rule of law. being on the side of innocent homeowners. Had the That is why I wrote to the Justice Secretary last week—as Government’s original plans gone ahead, 5,991 offenders I did to his predecessor—to request that his legal advice convicted of violence against the person, 1,700 offenders be published so that Members in all parts of the House convicted for sexual offences and even 67 rapists would could make an informed judgment. He has not responded also have been given the vote. I asked the Government yet. at the time for their legal advice that supported giving I should be grateful if the Lord Chancellor would violent and serious prisoners the vote, but they declined answer a number of questions. Will he make available to to provide it. The Government then performed one of the House the legal advice on which his draft Bill relies, their earlier U-turns and in a debate on 10 February and if not, why not? Does he agree with all the Attorney- 2011, Back Benchers from all sides voted overwhelmingly General’s views on this matter? When will Parliament to maintain the status quo. vote on his three options, and which of them will he I welcome the fact that the Attorney-General appealed recommend to the Joint Committee and the House? to the European Court again in the Grand Chamber Finally, will he confirm that no compensation will be this year, but many of us remember the previous Lord paid as a result of the announcement that he has made Chancellor boasting that he would use our once-in-a- today? generation opportunity of chairing the Council of Europe to ensure that the European Court changed the rules so Chris Grayling: I am sorry that the shadow Justice that civic and social issues such as this would not be Secretary did not take the measured approach that was adjudicated on in this way. Once again, the Government taken by the shadow Home Secretary at the weekend. over-promised and under-delivered. When he talks of a lack of consistency and commitment, We will digest the details of the draft Bill, and will he should remember that the Attorney-General went work with the Government to ensure that it receives the personally to Strasbourg to argue the case for this country. pre-legislative scrutiny that it deserves. Like my predecessors That does not suggest to me any lack of determination in the last Labour Government, I am unhappy with the on the Government’s part. European Court’s ruling on prisoner voting. I think The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned the previous that the Court got it wrong. This is not a case of our Lord Chancellor. I pay tribute to him for the progress Government failing to hold free or fair elections, or an that he made in the Brighton declaration. These are not issue of massive electoral fraud; it is a case of offenders, easy matters. We are dealing with a very large number sent to prison by judges, being denied the right and the of countries, and it is difficult to reach unanimous privilege of voting, as they are denied other rights and agreement. I think that my predecessor took a good privileges. This issue should be within the margin of first step towards securing the reforms that are needed—and appreciation that nation states are given by the European I agree that reforms are needed: indeed, I personally Court. take the view that further reforms are needed. I think Let me make clear that I am passionate about punishing that I have been very clear about that over the past few and reforming offenders. I believe in intervening aggressively weeks. Unless and until such reforms happen, however, to address the offending behaviour of prisoners, ensuring we must also recognise the reality of our international that they can read and write, addressing alcohol and obligations, and Parliament must decide what approach drug dependency, treating mental illness, providing job it wants this country to take. Having heard the right training so that prisoners can find employment later, hon. Gentleman’s remarks, I am not entirely certain enabling them to work in prison and to find somewhere what approach he wants us to take, but I think it to live, providing a mentor to help them with those important for Parliament to be in a position to make tasks, and much more. I meet many offenders, ex-offenders the decision. and experts, and I know that the idea that depriving The right hon. Gentleman asked about the legal prisoners of their votes makes them more likely to reoffend advice. I do not think that the Attorney-General’s views —or less likely to reintegrate themselves in society—is on this matter are any great secret: he has given evidence absurd. to Committees of this House during the last few weeks. That being said, I respect the rule of law, and we must Furthermore, the right hon. Gentleman will recall that uphold it. We do not and cannot abide only by judgments on no occasion under the last Government was advice with which we agree. This issue is part of the bigger given to them by the Attorney-General willingly published. picture of our membership of the European convention, However, I will give careful thought to the issues that he 749 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners)22 NOVEMBER 2012 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners) 750

[Chris Grayling] has been impeccable in observing the judgments of the Strasbourg Court, even—for example, in respect of has raised. I want to be as helpful as possible to the Joint terrorist suspects—when it has disagreed profoundly Committee, and I am willing to consider what methods with those decisions? Long may that continue. are available to us that are appropriate and follow due Given that we are talking about the rule of law, does precedent. the Justice Secretary also accept that—in breach of The right hon. Gentleman asked for clarification of ideas of the rule of law that are based on consent—the the implications of all this. It involves complex matters Strasbourg Court has extended its jurisdiction from that need to be discussed by Parliament, which is precisely fundamental human rights to social and civic rights, for why we need pre-legislative scrutiny and should not which we have not signed up? As Lord Hoffmann, the head straight into a Bill. Both this Government and the former Law Lord, has said, the Court “lacks constitutional last Government have talked about the importance legitimacy” in respect of such matters, and of pre-legislative scrutiny, and this is exactly the kind of “has no mandate to unify the laws of Europe” Bill that requires it. The right hon. Gentleman also asked about voting intentions. That is a matter for the House on subjects of this kind. to consider. When we reach the point at which a Bill is before the House, every Member will consider how he Chris Grayling: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s or she wishes to vote, but, for now, let us wait and see comments. I think it is worth recalling that when the what the Committee comes up with. convention was written, back in the 1950s, Stalin was in As for the right hon. Gentleman’s question about power in Russia and people were being sent to the compensation, I hope that the Court will—as it should— gulags without trial. That is what the convention was all view my announcement as the first step in the process about, but over the past 50 or 60 years the Court has that it has asked us to complete, and that the issues to moved it away from those fundamentals, and into a which he referred will not arise. territory that many of us find deeply unsettling and wrong. I think there is a compelling case for reform, but Several hon. Members rose— while the current situation continues, we must none the less respect the laws of which we are part, and put Mr Speaker: Order. There is much interest in the to Parliament the questions that I am putting to it statement, and I am keen to accommodate it, but I today. remind the House that there is a further piece of business within the hands of the Government to follow, and then Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): three pieces of business under the auspices of the Backbench As the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) Business Committee, the last of which, in particular, is has just demonstrated, this is a non-partisan, parliamentary very heavily subscribed. I am keen to accommodate the issue—a matter of debate across the House. In that interest, but I appeal to colleagues to help me to help context, I congratulate my right hon. Friend on doing them, and that is done through brevity. exactly the right thing in the Bill and handing the decision back to Parliament. I am sure, given the debate Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): If the that the right hon. Gentleman and I secured some time House agrees to the establishment of a Joint Committee, ago, that the House will effectively decide on the status should not that Committee consider other options, such quo, but that is for the House to decide. If that is what as restoring voting rights only in the last stages of a the House decides, does he accept that it will set a sentence? What makes me feel sick is the thought either precedent, and that every time the European Court goes of criminals cashing in from compensation because we beyond the remit set by the treaty, to which we did sign have not sorted this out, or of Britain using the same up, Parliament will reserve the right to correct it and arguments against international human rights jurisdictions put things back into proper law? as states with truly appalling human rights records.

Chris Grayling: Let me say in answer to the right hon. Chris Grayling: My right hon. Friend has set out Gentleman’s question about the different options that it clearly the legal position: Parliament has that right. It will be for the Committee to decide whether there are has been endorsed in the comments made to a Committee other elements that it wishes to see in a Bill. We have of this House by the Attorney-General, as it was in the tried to put together a simple framework within which House of Lords 13 years ago by Lord Justice Hoffmann. consultation and discussion can take place. That will That is the legal position—Parliament is sovereign, and undoubtedly involve considering whether there are other long should it remain so. options, in terms of either the scope of the Bill or some of the operational issues that underpin it. Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Are we not in As for the right hon. Gentleman’s point about other grave danger of insisting on the British way on a relatively countries, I must make clear that I do not equate a insignificant matter and giving an open invitation to legitimate democratic debate about these matters in this other, oppressive countries in Europe to mistreat their democratic House of Parliament with some of the prisoners? I recall meeting a woman in a Turkish jail extraordinary abuses of human rights that we have seen who had been given a 35-year sentence for murdering elsewhere in the past, and all too often today. These are her abusive husband. As someone who has been involved very different issues. in these matters for the past 15 years in Europe, may I say that we are sending out a signal that other countries Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): Does the Justice may behave in line with their own national interests and Secretary accept that on matters of fundamental human traditions, and that those traditions are to oppress their rights, the United Kingdom, under successive Governments, prisoners and to ignore human rights? 751 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners)22 NOVEMBER 2012 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners) 752

Chris Grayling: If the Court in Strasbourg were following penance? Or is it part of rehabilitation? Having discussed those fundamental principles to which the right hon. Strasbourg, we ought to start discussing why we are Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) referred a moment doing this to prisoners. ago and concentrated on serious human rights problems, the issues we are talking about today simply would not Chris Grayling: It is clearly a matter for Parliament to have arisen. decide. There may be divided opinions, in different ways, on whether or not to give votes to prisoners and Mr Speaker: It is time to call a knight of the realm. on which form any reform should take. That will be I call Sir Gerald Howarth. debated in the coming months, but surely it is ultimately the job of Parliament to decide which of many options it wishes to adopt. Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): In thanking you, Mr Speaker, and in congratulating my right hon. Friend, may I suggest to him that it is an affront to the Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Can the Lord British people that judges from such A-list countries as Chancellor confirm the position on judges’ discretion Andorra, Liechtenstein and Luxembourg should be on sentencing and the sentencing guidelines? Is there seeking to usurp the judgments of this sovereign Parliament? room in the Bill for that, given that the length of In so doing, they have, as the right hon. Member for sentences could change over time? Blackburn (Mr Straw) implied, discredited themselves. It is not we who are discredited by this judgment; it is Chris Grayling: It would not be my intention to try to they who have discredited the Court. add additional dimensions to the Bill. It is important that it concentrates on the core issues in relation to prisoner voting and the decisions of the European Court. There Chris Grayling: I know that my hon. Friend has will be other opportunities to debate matters relating to strong views on these matters. What I would say as Lord sentencing when we discuss Bills that are before the Chancellor is that it is important always to remember other place and will, I trust, be before this House in the that judges, whoever they are and in whichever court coming years. they are, be it the European Court or a national court, have the right to reach the decisions they reach. We may Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I congratulate violently disagree with those decisions, but they have my right hon. Friend on his robust position. Can he the right to reach them, and it would be a sad day when confirm that the legal advice is that Parliament, not the they no longer had that right. Our job and duty as European Court, has the final say? Will Ministers be legislators—the job of national Parliaments such as this—is free to vote for no change? to exercise sovereignty when we wish to do so. If we do not like the decisions that judges take, we always have at our disposal the ability to change the law. My statement Chris Grayling: As regards voting, I shall leave that today indicates to Parliament that the legal precedents question until we see what the Committee has brought before it are very clear: it has the right to disagree with forward. As for Parliament having the final say, I can the decisions reached in the Court in Strasbourg, but it tell my hon. Friend that it absolutely does so. That is would be for Parliament to decide whether it wishes to clearly what the Law Lords ruled 13 years ago and it exercise that sovereignty. is clearly what the Attorney-General has advised. It is also absolutely right—our national Parliament should be sovereign. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Do the Government want to pass this decision to Parliament Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): without providing it with the legal advice or any estimate Let us suppose that this House were to accept the most of the potential compensation claims that might be met modest of the Minister’s extensions of voting rights to if we do not comply? prisoners—the option for sentences of less than six months. What assurances can he give us that at some point in Chris Grayling: Absolutely not; I intend to be as future that, in itself, would not be found to be incompatible helpful as possible to Parliament. Indeed, my right hon. by the European Court? and learned Friend the Attorney-General has already been extensive in his evidence-giving to Parliament about Chris Grayling: It is unlikely; the indications from the the legal position. There is no secret and nothing to Court are that a level of reform of that kind would be hide; we want Parliament to have access to all the sufficient to satisfy it that we had conformed to the sensible advice. I am certain that my right hon. and judgment. That is one reason we have put that option learned Friend will be willing to give evidence before the in the Bill for consideration. A number of people have Joint Committee. suggested more minor changes, but we do not believe that those would be sufficient to satisfy the Court. One Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Just can never say never about anything, but our expectation because there may be a bipartisan consensus does not and belief is that that option would end this matter for mean that it is right or rational, and it certainly does not the foreseeable future. include me. May I volunteer to serve on this Joint Committee, and may I ask those who give evidence the Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): What following? Is denying the vote to someone who has been sanctions are available to the European Court of Human sentenced to jail after being convicted of a crime a Rights to apply against the UK Government if they are deterrent? It clearly is not. Is it a punishment, given that judged not to have complied with the judgment sent most criminals have not voted in their lives? Is it a down? 753 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners)22 NOVEMBER 2012 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners) 754

Chris Grayling: Ultimately, if this Parliament decides assure me that it is for this Parliament to consider a not to agree to rulings from the ECHR, it has no range of options, which I hope the Joint Committee will sanction. It can apply fines in absentia, but it will be for consider carefully? Parliament to decide whether it wishes to recognise those decisions, as it is with all decisions. Of course, as Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend makes an important Lord Justice Hoffmann said in 1999, there are political point about those in our prisons who vote, including consequences for the UK if Parliament chooses to take fine defaulters, people on remand and people who are that decision. between verdict and sentence. I can give him an absolutely clear assurance that it will be for Parliament to decide Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): It is whether it wishes to see more prisoners with the vote or right and proper that convicted prisoners should not simply to retain the number at that level. be able to vote while they are in prison. I very much welcome the Minister’s commitment to consult the Scottish Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): The Government at the pre-legislative stage, but may I seek Secretary of State will know that the Edinburgh agreement his assurance that he will prioritise keeping to a minimum devolves the franchise in the forthcoming independence the burden on the Scottish Prison Service, the Scottish referendum to the Scottish Parliament but that Acts of Court Service and those who administer elections? the Scottish Parliament have a very different relationship with the European convention on human rights from Chris Grayling: I will certainly give the hon. Lady Acts of this Parliament. Have the Scottish Government that commitment. I should say that I spoke to the contacted him to put on record their position about Scottish Justice Secretary this morning ahead of this whether prisoners will have the right to vote in the statement, as I did to his counterparts in the other referendum? Should any prisoner decide to sue, will devolved Administrations. It is important that they play that Government or this Government be liable in the a part in the discussions that lie ahead. Of course, one courts? factor that needs to be a part of the discussion is what the burdens will be on those who have to administer Chris Grayling: The legal position is very clear: this is systems to provide prisoners with the vote, if indeed a reserved matter for this Parliament and not for the that is what Parliament chooses to do. devolved Assemblies. As I mentioned, I have already had a discussion with the Scottish Justice Secretary. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Prison governors Clearly, one issue that will have to be addressed in the have more regular contact with prisoners than any of us pre-legislative process is what will happen with the in this House. Does the Justice Secretary therefore agree Scottish referendum. We have already started that with the past president of the Prison Governors Association, conversation and it will continue. who has said: “The blanket ban on sentenced prisoners’ voting is out of step Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Should we in a modern prison service and runs counter to resettlement work not set store by precedent? Am I right in believing that which aims to ensure that prisoners lead a responsible, law-abiding when we signed up to the convention, before the 1960s, life on release”? those serving as misdemeanours for fewer than six months were allowed to vote but felons serving for more Chris Grayling: What my hon. Friend has just brought than six months could not? Of course we must be before the House is one example of the kind of views sovereign, but is that not the sort of compromise that I expect to be submitted to the Joint Committee of both could be reached to ensure our continued membership Houses of Parliament. I am sure that the views of of the Council of Europe? prison governors will be listened to with interest. Chris Grayling: That is a very interesting point. It will Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): be for my hon. Friend, given his expertise on these Of the 43 member countries of the European conventions, matters, to make representations to the consultative which ones maintain a blanket ban on prisoner voting? Committee, which we hope will be able to consider all these issues before it forms a view of what this Parliament Chris Grayling: Seven countries have done so. Most should do. recently, Italy was before the Court and has made an amendment to its system. Of course, each country will Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I thank the Secretary of form its own decision based on the system it has in place State for his statement, which was very clear. I understand and the sovereignty of its Parliament. There has been that no matter what the European Court says in the some suggestion that ours is the only country that has future, if Parliament decides that prisoners will not get even contemplated failing to implement a decision of the vote, with which I agree completely, that is the end the European Court, but I should tell the House that of the matter. What if compensation claims are still made if we look at the record of different members of the and won in the European Court? Will the Government Council of Europe for implementing decisions over refuse to pay out any compensation? the years, we see that this country stands near the top of the list. Chris Grayling: If Parliament decides not to change the current position, that will clearly, as per the ruling Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Does from Lord Justice Hoffmann, generate a political issue my right hon. Friend agree that we need to nail the between the United Kingdom and the Council of Europe. myth about the so-called blanket ban? We do not have a The Joint Committee will wish to consider that as part blanket ban in this country; remand prisoners, contemnors of its deliberations. As for the consequences, we cannot and fine defaulters retain the right to vote. Will he know what they will be until that decision has been 755 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners)22 NOVEMBER 2012 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners) 756 taken. The legal position is very clear. The hon. Gentleman the proposal that one determining factor on reinstating mentioned fines, and as I said earlier, this Parliament any of those rights to vote should be proximity to the is ultimately sovereign and can decide whether it will end of a sentence? accept a ruling of the European Court of any sort or whether it will not. Chris Grayling: There is a perfectly coherent argument to be made by those who believe that, and it is undoubtedly Several hon. Members rose— one of the areas I expect to be discussed by the consultative Committee. I should also say that I would expect the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I different Select Committees with an involvement in this want to get everybody in and do not want to disappoint area to want to contribute to the process, too. I have no anyone, so we need short questions and speedy answers. doubt that what the hon. Gentleman has just described will be one of the options discussed. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Many members of the public will believe that this Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): The option that decision is because of the Human Rights Act. As the gives prisoners with lower sentences the opportunity to Lord Chancellor has said very clearly that it is not, will vote would therefore include some prisoners who have he confirm whether he supports repealing that Act? been convicted of electoral fraud. Does the Secretary of State regard that as appropriate? Chris Grayling: The hon. Gentleman is quite right that the question refers back to the original convention Chris Grayling: We have different rules for those and the structures that have been in place since the convicted of electoral fraud, who are banned from 1950s. I support reform of that system and I have been voting for an extended period. The Government have quite clear that I intend on behalf of my party to no plans to change that, but the issue will be discussed introduce proposals before the next election. If the as part of the review process and we will see the will of whole House decides to adopt those proposals, that will Parliament. I do not believe that that is necessarily the be great. Otherwise, we will fight the campaign on same legal issue as the broader one about the availability them. to prisoners of the right to vote.

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Will not the Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I whole of the British people welcome the fact that the congratulate my right hon. Friend on emphasising the Secretary of State for Justice has come to the Dispatch importance of parliamentary sovereignty. In that context, Box and put their views first, making this Parliament will he assure us that this is not an area in which the sovereign and ignoring the Mickey Mouse court in European Union and the fundamental rights agency Europe? have any competence whatsoever?

Chris Grayling: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Chris Grayling: I wish I could give my hon. Friend his kind comments. He has been a great champion of that complete assurance, but there is another case pending the rights of Parliament and I think that Parliament’s on the right to vote on European elections, rather than role in this and other matters is enormously important. national elections, that will be heard in our Supreme I am very glad to put it at the centre of a vital decision Court next summer. That is another thing that is not for this country. entirely welcome, but we will have to see what the judgment is when the time comes. Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): May I commend the approach taken by my right hon. Friend? This is a Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): I am still not clear matter for Parliament and Parliament alone to decide, about the issue of compensation. What advice has the but the processes he has outlined to the House today, Secretary of State received about what the situation will including pre-legislative scrutiny, will take some time. be if Parliament restates the present position and current Can he assure me it that will be drawn to the attention prisoners decide to claim compensation? of the Court that this House will need a proper amount of time to consider these detailed matters and for Chris Grayling: The legal position remains that reflection? Parliament has the right to say no to any decision of the European Court of Human Rights, whatever that might Chris Grayling: I can absolutely give my hon. Friend be. It is clear that that is its absolute right but, as Lord that assurance. Pre-legislative scrutiny is a part of the Justice Hoffmann said, there is a political consequence legislative process that is now supported strongly on of doing so. I do not make light of the challenge or both sides of the House. It has been used on many debate that would follow if the decision were not to give occasions for other Bills. In the case of a Bill as controversial prisoners the vote. and with as many permutations as this one, I shall make it very clear to the Court that this is the start of a Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): parliamentary process and an important part of the The Secretary of State has just mentioned that a number response to what it has asked us to do. of leading EU countries have ignored judgments of the ECHR on the grounds of parliamentary sovereignty. It Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Many people was stated at the time that their international reputation will accept that prisoners serving custodial sentences in various forums, such as the UN Human Rights rightly surrender many of their civil and social privileges Council, would suffer. Is there any evidence of that and rights. What does the Secretary of State think about happening and has any analysis being carried out? 757 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners)22 NOVEMBER 2012 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners) 758

Chris Grayling: I have no evidence of such issues. making claims, in either the European Court of Human Some people have suggested that if Parliament chooses Rights or English courts, for denial of their alleged to exercise its right of sovereignty, the UK would become human rights? a pariah state, but I must say very clearly that I simply do not accept that. I believe that Parliament has the Chris Grayling: I cannot say too much about all the right to exercise its sovereignty. It will be for Parliament detailed plans I have at the moment—I am in the early to decide in this situation whether it wishes to exercise stages of thinking through some of the broader issues—but that sovereignty, but I do not believe that if it chooses to one point I will make is that I have asked the question do so, Britain will somehow turn into a nation with an about the use of the legal aid system for purposes that appalling human rights record. Our human rights record I do not believe it was designed for. I hope to bring stands comparison with anyone’s. forward further thoughts on that before too long.

Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): As a member Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I draw the House’s of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, attention to my recently published book on prison I have had the opportunity to discuss the issue with reform. senior members of the European Court of Human I have represented hundreds of people who were in Rights in a particular context. There are 47 member prison, not one of whom ever said to my good self that states of the Council of Europe and very many of they were busting for a chance to vote; I assure the them—France is one; Malta is another—hold prisoners Secretary of State that that was not the intention of for very long periods without trial in clear breach of the many I represented. What is the proposal in the option convention on human rights, about which the ECHR for considering short sentences of a few weeks or even a chooses to do precisely nothing. Would it not be a good few days in custody? idea for the ECHR to concentrate on enforcing article 5 and such matters rather than meddling, as the right Chris Grayling: Under the proposal to give the vote hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) has said, in to prisoners who have received a sentence of either six matters that are not even within its remit? months or less or four years or less, someone given a very short sentence would be eligible for a postal vote in Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. prison. Of course, whether or not they are given that This is the problem; at the moment, we have a Court vote would depend on what Parliament and this House that is drowning in hundreds of thousands of cases in decide. areas that the originators of the convention would never have considered relevant to what they were creating. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I am appalled That has taken the judges in Strasbourg away from the by the lack of legal training for so many of the so-called fundamental principles that they are supposed to be judges of the European Court of Human Rights, incensed there to protect, so I absolutely agree with my hon. by the Court’s repeated attempts to traduce the sovereignty Friend. of the British Parliament, and cognisant of the fact that there would be no Court and no human rights in Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): The European convention Europe if this country had not stood alone against on human rights was set up in the aftermath of the Hitler in 1940. My constituents want their MP to vote second world war to ensure that the horrors of Nazi to ban prisoners from voting, and in that they will not Germany never happened again. It was never the intention be disappointed. of its framers to give Albert Speer and Rudolf Hess the vote. Does not that make it clear that there is a Chris Grayling: We have had one or two early statements difference between the convention and the Court? That of intent from Members, some of which have not surprised is why Parliament will have a moral mandate to defy the me at all. I know that my hon. Friend feels strongly Court. about these matters and is an effective advocate for both his constituency and his point of view on these issues, Chris Grayling: I really believe that is the central which I know is shared across the House. As my hon. issue, which is why I feel so passionately that we need to Friend the Member for WorthingWest (Sir Peter Bottomley) reform the system, which has moved a long way from made clear, those views are not unanimous across the the noble motives of its conservative creators, who were House and, therefore, I think that we will have a constructive trying to address some of the appalling situations that and lively debate before Parliament reaches its view on people in Europe found themselves in at the time. It was the way forward. not about whether prisoners had the right to vote; it was about people being put in mental hospitals for the rest Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): I strongly of their lives without trial as an excuse for taking them welcome the stance my right hon. Friend has taken. out of the political process. That is the kind of thing we Does he agree that everybody supports the concept of should be fighting. genuine human rights but it is this sort of nonsense, whereby the Court interferes in the internal affairs of a Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): I country with an impeccable record and tries to micro- congratulate the Secretary of State on doing something manage our system, that gives the whole concept of previous Secretaries of State for Justice have not done, human rights a bad name and undermines the work the which is invoke parliamentary sovereignty, but I gently Court should be doing? suggest that that takes us only so far. It is likely that ambulance-chasing compensation claims will be made, Chris Grayling: I absolutely agree. It is a little-known so will he indicate what steps he is taking now, by way of fact that at university I was chairman of the Amnesty contingency planning, to prevent any prisoners from International group and campaigned for Soviet prisoners 759 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners)22 NOVEMBER 2012 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners) 760 of conscience. That work is a world away from some of I do not have the legal basis to rule it in or out at the the areas the Court is currently considering, which is moment, but the six-month threshold is certainly where why I believe it needs serious reform. the Court has indicated that it sees the line being drawn.

Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): I welcome the Secretary Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): Does my of State’s comments today about Parliament being sovereign right hon. Friend agree that not only is it fundamentally on this issue and on how he is vigilant on legal aid. It wrong for prisoners to be given the vote, but it is British would be completely unacceptable to my constituents to courts that see all the evidence and take away the see legal aid paid to convicted criminals. freedom of those people, so why on earth should it be European courts that overrule us? Chris Grayling: On legal aid, there will always be people we might find repellent but for whom we must provide financial support so that they can defend themselves Chris Grayling: As a great believer in the principle of in a fair and open justice system, but that does not subsidiarity, I think that, where possible, national courts mean that our legal aid system should be open to abuse should take decisions on all but the highest points of for purposes it is not intended to serve. That is why I principle. That, of course, is not where we are at the have asked my officials to look closely at that area and moment with the European Court of Human Rights, consider what changes are necessary. which is taking decisions on issues that, in my view, should certainly be a matter for national courts. Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Will the Secretary of State clarify that it will be open to Parliament to decide that Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): non-violent offences tried summarily by the magistrates The Secretary of State is absolutely right: this is not just would comply with the requirements of the European about the important matter of prisoner voting; it is Court of Human Rights and that using the sentencing about the even more important matter of the very guidelines and the experience of the judiciary, which is sovereignty of this House and this Parliament. To that independent of interference and hears the evidence, end, can he reconfirm that the legal advice is clear and should be a vehicle for deciding whether or not prisoners unequivocal that it is this Parliament, not the European are entitled to vote? Court of Human Rights, that has the final say on this important matter? Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend has put forward a further option for the eventual legislation, and I encourage Chris Grayling: I absolutely confirm that. That advice her to take it to the Committee for its consideration. has come from distinguished legal figures at both ends of this Parliament, from the former Law Lord, Lord Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): My constituents are Justice Hoffmann, and a current distinguished legal horrified by the prospect of prisoners being given an figure, my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney- entitlement to vote. Further to the issue of those given General, who have given identical advice on the sovereignty short sentences, will the Secretary of State comment on of Parliament and its right to take the final decision on the position of offenders who are given community the matter. sentences? Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I warmly Chris Grayling: Those who are given community welcome the Lord Chancellor’s statement and look sentences are currently still able to vote and we have no forward to being able to vote again in favour of maintaining intention of changing that, although one option that the status quo. In the meantime, will my right hon. has been adopted in some other European countries, Friend please confirm that the pre-legislative scrutiny Italy particularly, is having tighter rules for those released will in no way be rushed and that when the Joint after a prison sentence. That is clearly an option that Committee comes to consider the draft Bill every single the Committee might wish to consider. issue will be explored and every interested person will be given the time and opportunity to put their views in Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I was pleased to full and to be examined about them? hear my right hon. Friend say that he will uphold our obligations under international law. I welcome the middle Chris Grayling: Given the wide range of views expressed option of six months or fewer as something that those in the House today, it is clear that there will be an of us who are not implacably opposed to prisoners extensive and broad-ranging debate, and it would be having the right to vote under any circumstances could entirely wrong to curtail the parliamentary process and consider. Will he qualify that further and comment on prevent legitimate views from being heard. whether further restrictions could be added to that option—for example, eliminating from the list of eligible people those who have a record of violence or taking Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): Does my into consideration their previous convictions? right hon. Friend agree that voting is a right, but it is also a responsibility? Prisoners are in prison precisely Chris Grayling: Those issues could certainly be discussed, because they have shown a lack of responsibility, so but the Court has indicated to us that, were we to they should not have the right to make decisions over implement a measure that took the bar lower than the other people by voting in elections. six-month sentence point, it would be unlikely to see our approach as compliant with the original ruling. Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend has articulated one Whether an exception for violence could be made is a of the clear views held in the House on this issue. The matter that needs careful consideration in Committee. issue commands very strong opinions, and I believe that 761 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners)22 NOVEMBER 2012 Voting Eligibility (Prisoners) 762

[Chris Grayling] Chris Grayling: That is an intriguing idea, but, sadly, I think the European Court will not allow us to wait today I have offered Members such as my hon. Friend four more years before reaching a final decision on this the opportunity not simply to express their view, but to matter. I think Parliament will have to vote before then. vote to express it.

Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I absolutely BILLS PRESENTED agree that deciding whether prisoners should have the right to vote is properly a matter for this Parliament, but I am concerned that the United Kingdom may well POLICE (COMPLAINTS AND CONDUCT)BILL find itself either asked to pay fines or outside the Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) judgment of the European Court. Britain has an admirable Secretary Theresa May, supported by the Deputy reputation for leading the world in respect of the rule of Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Danny law, so will my right hon. Friend work with the other Alexander, Secretary Chris Grayling, Secretary Jeremy 46 members of the Council of Europe to find ways of Hunt, Secretary Maria Miller, the Attorney-General avoiding the confrontation we seem to be heading for, and Damian Green, presented a Bill to make provision which will almost inevitably involve curtailing the ambitions about interviews held during certain investigations under and scope of the European Court? schedule 3 to the Police Reform Act 2002; and about the application of part 2 of that Act to matters occurring Chris Grayling: I can absolutely give my hon. Friend before April 2004. that assurance. It is my view that reform must come, and I am very pleased to have heard today that that is Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time clearly the view of Opposition Members as well. The tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 93) with explanatory former Lord Chancellor, my right hon. and learned notes (Bill 93-EN). Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), made a good start with the work done before the Brighton EQUALITY ACT 2010 (AMENDMENT )BILL declaration, but my view is that there is a long way still Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) to go on this matter. Mr Frank Field, supported by Diana Johnson, Andrew Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): Parliament George and Mrs Eleanor Laing, presented a Bill to is rightly seeking to reflect the public’s horror at the amend the Equality Act 2010 to remove discrimination prospect of prisoners getting the vote, so why not tap against women in relation to consecration of bishops in into that by putting the options in a referendum coinciding the Church of England; and for connected purposes. with the next police and crime commissioner elections, Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on in which we want more people to vote? Friday 18 January 2013, and to be printed (Bill 94). 763 22 NOVEMBER 2012 Prevention and Suppression of 764 Terrorism Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism including with the intelligence and law enforcement agencies. These decisions are taken with great care by the Home Secretary, and it is right that the case for 12.52 pm proscribing new organisations must be approved by The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): I both Houses. beg to move, Having carefully considered all the evidence, the Home That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) Secretary firmly believes that Ansaru is concerned in (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2012, which was laid before this terrorism. Members will appreciate that I am unable to House on 19 November, be approved. go into detail, but I can provide a brief summary. The Government are determined to do all they can to Ansaru is an Islamist terrorist organisation, based in minimise the threat from terrorism to the UK and our Nigeria, which publicly emerged in January 2012. It is interests abroad. Proscription is an important part of motivated by an anti-Nigerian Government and an the Government’s strategy to tackle terrorist activities. anti-Western agenda, and is broadly aligned with al-Qaeda. We would therefore like to add Ansarul Muslimina Fi It is believed to be responsible for the murders of Biladis Sudan, known as Ansaru, to the list of international British national, Christopher McManus, and his Italian terrorist organisations, amending schedule 2 of the co-worker. Franco Lamolinara, in March 2012. Terrorism Act 2000. This is the eleventh proscription In conclusion, for these reasons I believe it is right that order under that Act. we add the organisation to the list of proscribed Section 3 of the Terrorism Act 2000 provides a power organisations under schedule 2 of the Terrorism Act 2000. for the Home Secretary to proscribe an organisation if I commend the motion to the House. she believes it is currently concerned in terrorism. The Act specifies that an organisation 12.57 pm “is concerned in terrorism if it— (a) commits or participates in acts of terrorism, Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I thank the Minister for his statement, and congratulate (b) prepares for terrorism, him on his pronunciation of the full name of this group. (c) promotes or encourages terrorism”— I shall refer to it as Ansaru. including the unlawful glorification of terrorism, or— We support the Government on issues of national “(d) is otherwise concerned in terrorism.” security and work with them on the basis of cross-party If the test is met, the Home Secretary may exercise her co-operation. As the Government are acting today against discretion to proscribe the organisation. a group that was identified as an independent entity In considering whether to exercise this discretion, the only in January 2012, I commend them on their speedy Home Secretary takes into account a number of factors: action. the nature and scale of an organisation’s activities; the As the Minister has said, under section 3 of the 2000 specific threat that it poses to the United Kingdom; the Terrorism Act a group can be proscribed if it specific threat that it poses to British nationals overseas; “(a) commits or participates in acts of terrorism, . the organisation’s presence in the United Kingdom; and (b) prepares for terrorism, the need to support other members of the international (c) promotes or encourages terrorism, or community in tackling terrorism. (d) is otherwise concerned in terrorism.” Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I welcome the Minister Obviously, the Opposition are at a disadvantage in to the Dispatch Box in dealing with counter-terrorism evaluating the evidence against such groups, as we do matters. I had not realised the Immigration Minister not have access to the same intelligence data as the was now going to be responsible for counter-terrorism Government. However, based on what is in the public within the Home Office, but I am glad he has got this domain and the brief summary the Minister was able to portfolio as well. Is there any indication as to how many give today, we are satisfied that the Home Secretary is supporters Ansaru has in the UK? justified in coming to the conclusion that Ansaru meets these criteria, and we will support the motion. Mr Harper: The right hon. Gentleman, the Chair of Members will be particularly concerned to hear about the Home Affairs Committee, may be pleased or possible links between Ansaru and the kidnap of Chris disappointed to know that I am handling this order, but McManus and his Italian colleague, Franco Lamolinara. my fellow Minister, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, The treatment of Mr McManus and Mr Lamolinara retains responsibility for security matters. He is out of was barbaric and despicable, and it is right that the UK the country today on Government business, so I am Government should take action against any group that dealing with the order on his behalf. commits such acts of terror against UK citizens. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I Ansaru has also been linked to the long-established do not answer the question he asks. There are things Boko Haram sect, which is not proscribed. I hope the I am not able to say in the House, based on intelligence Minister will commit today to keep the status of Boko issues. If he will forgive me, I would prefer not to answer Haram under review. So far the actions of this group his question directly. have been largely confined to Nigeria, but I hope the Given the wide-ranging impact of proscription, the Government will act to proscribe Boko Haram if links Home Secretary exercises her power to proscribe only to the UK emerge. after thoroughly reviewing the available relevant information Finally, I remind the Minister of his party’s commitment, and evidence on the organisation concerned. That includes made repeatedly when it was in opposition, including open-source material, intelligence material, legal advice by the now Prime Minister, to ban Hizb ut-Tahrir. The and advice that reflects consultation across government, Conservatives have now been in power for two and a 765 Prevention and Suppression of 22 NOVEMBER 2012 Prevention and Suppression of 766 Terrorism Terrorism [Diana Johnson] was that organisations can change their name, but still function. By changing their name, they become, in a half years, yet Hizb ut-Tahrir is still a legal organisation sense, a new organisation. in the UK. Now that the Minister has the responsibilities The points made by my hon. Friend the Member for of government I wonder whether, in respect of that Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) about organisation, he regrets playing politics with national Hizb ut-Tahrir are relevant. I know the Prime Minister security while in opposition. is very keen to ban this organisation. He has said so as Leader of the Opposition and as Prime Minister, but he 1pm has come up against advice that has been given, presumably, Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I fully support the by those who give advice whose names we do not know motion that the Government have put before the House —obviously, because by the nature of their job they today. One of the features of the fight against terrorism have to operate in the shadows. They have clearly said is that the Front-Bench teams unite as they have today to the Home Secretary that in respect of Hizb ut-Tahrir in supporting what the Home Secretary proposes. there is no case to proscribe, but there is in respect of We must, of course, give the Home Secretary the Ansaru. benefit of the doubt. I am sure she has looked at this We in the House probably know more about Hizb case very carefully indeed. I am certain that she, like ut-Tahrir than we do about Ansaru. Many of us, myself previous Home Secretaries, does not take lightly the included, probably discovered this organisation only decision to proscribe an organisation. However, I want when we knew that a proscription order was going to be to raise a number of concerns that I have raised in the issued on the Floor of the House today. In the case of past, and that the Select Committee has raised, that Hizb ut-Tahrir, we know what its members are up to, we have not been really been answered by the Government. know about their activities, we know what they have I am glad to see here the hon. Member for Cambridge said, but still they are not proscribed. (Dr Huppert), who is also a member of the Select It may seem odd that Members are asking for more Committee and who played a leading part in producing proscription and at the same time are asking for time the report that we published at the end of last year on limits, but when an organisation ceases to exist and the roots of radicalism. members of settled communities, though not members Of course it is right that when the Government have of that organisation, are loosely associated because the evidence, and the security services and others give they come from the same geographical area, such as advice to the Home Secretary, they should initiate a members of the Tamil community who are settled in ban. Despite the fact that we have had successive orders this country, obviously there are concerns. on the Floor of the House that have gone through relatively quickly because of the support of the Opposition, I hope that when the Minister replies, he will at least the concern expressed by the Select Committee, which give us some indication—I appreciate that this is not his has not really been answered, is that the orders are not area of responsibility—when we will know that the time-limited. Once the proscription is put in place, there Government have made up their mind in respect of the is no revisiting it unless there is an application by the response to the Select Committee’s report published a group concerned to get itself de-proscribed. year ago. That will assist us, as I am sure it will assist David Anderson, QC, in our deliberations on this very In the time that I have been in the House, there has important subject. On the substance of the order, I fully been only one example of a group being de-proscribed. support what the Government are doing today. I have That was the People’s Mujahedeen, which in the end faith in the Home Secretary’s judgment. I know that she had to go to court in order to get the proscription lifted would do this only if she felt that it was the right thing by the then Government. The concerns that I have to do, and I hope the order will go through with the raised have been raised with me and with the Home support of the whole House. Affairs Committee by a number of groups including, for example, members of the Tamil community, who were concerned at the banning of the LTTE, an organisation 1.6 pm that no longer exists, whose leaders have been executed Mr Harper: Let me deal with the issues that have been or dissipated. It does not function, yet that proscription raised by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull remains in force. A number of right hon. and hon. North (Diana Johnson) and the right hon. Member for Members have members of the Tamil community in Leicester East (Keith Vaz). The hon. Lady spoke on their constituencies and they have raised this concern. behalf of the Opposition, and I thank her for their That is why it is important that the Government should support, as I thank the Chairman of the Home Affairs take a view on the matter. Committee for his support. This is always a difficult Whenever Ministers have come to the House before area, because as the hon. Lady said, there are things to talk about proscribing organisations—in this case, that the Government know which they are not able to Ansaru—we have raised the point but we have never share publicly. I am grateful for what she and the received a response with a definitive answer. David Chairman of the Select Committee said about my right Anderson, QC, the reviewer of counter-terrorism appointed hon. Friend the Home Secretary. by the Government, has favoured a time limit. In Australia Proscription is a tough but necessary power. Its effect there is a time limit of two years. There should perhaps is that a listed organisation is outlawed and is unable to be not an automatic de-proscription, but at least the operate in the UK. It makes it a criminal offence for a opportunity for senior Home Office officials to review person to belong to that proscribed organisation, to the decision and to see whether the organisation has invite support for it, to arrange a meeting in support of changed. One of the points that was made to the Home it or to wear clothing or carry articles in public which Secretary the last time she used proscription against an arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a organisation—I think it was Muslims Against Crusades— member of that organisation. Proscribing Ansaru will 767 Prevention and Suppression of 22 NOVEMBER 2012 Prevention and Suppression of 768 Terrorism Terrorism also enable the police to carry out disruptive action against on counter-terrorism policy and various frameworks any of its supporters in the UK and—picking up the for dealing with it, and we work closely with our Nigerian point made by the Chairman of the Select Committee— colleagues to support them in any way we can in combating ensure that it cannot operate effectively in the United the security challenges that they face. Kingdom. The hon. Lady mentioned Hizb ut-Tahrir. As she The right hon. Gentleman mentioned de-proscription. knows, that organisation is not proscribed in the United Anyone who is proscribed can apply to the Home Kingdom. As I said, proscription can be considered Secretary to be de-proscribed. If that application is only when the Home Secretary believes that an organisation refused, the applicant can appeal to the Proscribed is involved in terrorism, as defined in the Terrorism Act Organisations Appeal Commission, a special tribunal 2000. As the right hon. Member for Leicester East which is able to consider the sensitive material that suggested, it does, though, remain an organisation about underpins proscription decisions. which the Government have significant concerns, and The Chairman of the Select Committee also mentioned we continue to monitor its activities very closely. the report that David Anderson, QC, has recently produced The final issue that the Chairman of the Select and also the Select Committee’s report. The Government Committee raised was organisations that change their have carefully noted the comments that David Anderson name but not necessarily their activities. Section 3(6) of made in his report about the de-proscription process the Act allows the Home Secretary, by order, to specify and the Home Secretary will respond shortly to the an alternative name for a proscribed organisation, and report, so the right hon. Gentleman may not have too we keep the list of organisations under review, including long to wait to find out what the Government’s view is. consideration of whether they are operating under any alternative aliases. Keith Vaz: I know that we have become used to the word “shortly”, but it may well have been used a year Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): Is there ago, when we were told that there would be a response a streamlined process for claiming that a group with a shortly. Is that this year? Is it next year? [Interruption.] new name is still the old group? Instead of having to start again and prove that the group under the new Mr Harper: As my right hon. Friend the Work and name is a risk, is there is a quick and simple process for Pensions Secretary says, the waiting time is getting saying “This is the old group under a new name”? shorter. I will not put an exact date on it because when I have done that in the past, I have inevitably disappointed Mr Harper: Yes. If we proscribe a group on the basis people. The right hon. Gentleman will clearly have less of all the information we have about it, and it then tries time to wait than he did when he heard a Minister say to change its identity, there is provision in the Act to that last year. allow us to specify an alternative name without having The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North to go through the process of reconsidering all the legal mentioned Boko Haram, which operates in Nigeria. tests that the Home Secretary has to carry out. For very sensible reasons, the Government do not comment I hope that with those answers I have dealt with the on whether any group is under consideration for questions that were raised, and that the House will proscription, but we are deeply concerned about violence, support the motion. whether terrorist or otherwise, in Nigeria. We remain Question put and agreed to. committed to working closely with the Nigerian authorities Resolved, to tackle the security situation in Nigeria. When the That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) Prime Minister met President Jonathan in February this (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2012, which was laid before this year, he re-affirmed our shared agenda. We have experience House on 19 November, be approved. 769 22 NOVEMBER 2012 Universal Credit 770

Dame Anne Begg: Indeed. We hope that in response Backbench Business to our report the Government will give more detail—put more flesh on the bones—on exactly how the exceptions Universal Credit service will work and how it will identify vulnerable people. I will have a bit more to say about that later. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I inform the Another area of concern is the ambitious implementation House that by convention only Dame Anne Begg will timetable. We think that there is a danger that the speak in this debate. Interventions are allowed, but no Government have a degree of blind faith in thinking other speeches. that all the IT systems will work. We would love to share their feeling that everything is all right, but we 1.11 pm have seen in the past how other Government IT systems have not lived up to expectations. Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): I beg to move, Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Did That this House has considered the matter of the publication the Committee note the concern of the Federation of the Third Report from the Work and Pensions Committee, on of Small Businesses that only a quarter of small businesses Universal Credit implementation: meeting the needs of vulnerable are aware of the need to provide real-time information claimants, HC 576. to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs? What did the Today the Work and Pensions Committee published Committee recommend as regards those communications? a report, “Universal credit implementation: meeting the needs of vulnerable claimants”. Universal credit is a Dame Anne Begg: We heard a lot of evidence from new working-age benefit that, if the various IT systems members of employers’ organisations and from work—fingers crossed—should be easy to operate for organisations representing accountants, and others, who the majority of claimants. Almost all our witnesses were concerned about HMRC’s real-time information supported the principles of universal credit, but as we requirements, on which the system strongly depends. took evidence it became clear that there were concerns They felt that there was not enough knowledge among about how those who will find the new system difficult employers who will have to operate the process. One of are to be helped. That explains the title of our report. our recommendations was that the Government should The Government’s approach is to design a system that be liaising more closely with those organisations and works for the majority before they then assess what helping with publicity. Another recommendation was additional support more vulnerable claimants might that the Government should be wary of trying to keep need. However, we have significant concerns that insufficient to the ambitious timetable that has been set. progress has been made in deciding what the additional The Committee has two other areas of concern. support will offer, how it will be delivered, and who will First, there are still decisions to be made about how to qualify for it. There is therefore a risk that this help will deal with passported benefits. Secondly, the decision to not be in place for the implementation of universal localise council tax benefit seems to fly completely in credit in the first pathfinder areas from April next year. the face of the basic principles of universal credit. That The report highlights several areas of concern. First, might create extra computer problems, because the “digital by default”, as the Government call it, means, Department for Work and Pensions’ computer system in effect, that all claims and all changes in circumstances would have to interface not only with the HMRC’s will have to be submitted online, which might cause computer systems but those of local authorities. problems for a sizeable minority of people. On the Let me look at these matters in a bit more detail. single monthly payment per household, we are concerned “Digital by default” sounds great in theory, but it might about who within the household will be the recipient. be more difficult to manage in practice because the We are worried about potential delays in the system that number of people likely to be applying for universal could mean not only that one benefit is delayed but that credit who do not have access to a computer or are not all moneys that are due to go into the household are digitally aware or computer literate will be much higher stopped for one reason or another. Another concern is than in the general population. We are keen that the that under universal credit the housing costs of someone Government should lay out exactly what will happen in in social housing will no longer be paid directly to the the case of claimants who are unable to make any kind landlord but will be part of the single monthly payment. of digital claim, because we understand that there will The Government’s emphasis on planning for the majority not be a paper form. Indeed, the Government expect means that that is where all the work has been done. that only 50% of claimants will make their claim online There has not been enough detail on the so-called in 2013, when universal credit starts to be rolled out. exceptions policy and on how people who are not managing—those who are not in the majority—will be Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): I congratulate the picked up. hon. Lady on her speech. Does she agree, though, that many people find the existing multiple claims processes Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): I thank my very difficult to deal with and get right? Does she also hon. Friend for presenting this very important report. I agree that there are advantages to people using computers think she will agree that one of the Committee’s major and becoming familiar with the internet because it will concerns was that the concept of exceptions—people help them to get into work, where they may well be who might get additional help or assistance, or who expected to do those things? might not be subject to the monthly payment rule—was very unworked-out. It would be helpful to get some of Dame Anne Begg: As we say in the report, it will not the detail so that these things are anticipated rather be a problem for the majority of people, but it will be than dealt with once people have got into trouble. for some. We must remember that the people who will 771 Universal Credit22 NOVEMBER 2012 Universal Credit 772 get universal credit are not just run-of-the-mill out-of-work Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): I entirely claimants; some will have very severe disabilities because take on board the point about the lack of digital access employment and support allowance is part of the new for certain people. That is a problem across a range of system. Some people will have quite profound barriers Government services, and not just in this area. Does she to accessing benefits of any kind on the internet. We agree that moving away from multiple applications for a hope that they will have help, but it would be useful for large swathe of different benefits will provide a benefit, the Government to spell out in more detail exactly how for want of a better word? I am sure that, like me, she is that help will be accessed. visited by many constituents who simply do not know what benefits they are entitled to and are not claiming Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I am delighted to have them. Universal benefit should help to prevent that. joined the Select Committee, albeit after the evidence for this report was taken. When the Committee reviewed Dame Anne Begg: That is why most of our witnesses the draft report, we discussed the issue that many of the supported the basic principles of universal credit. I do people who may struggle are the very people who not like to say that it will simplify the benefits system, struggle at the moment. It is important that we do not because I do not think there is such a thing as a simple suggest that universal credit will be the source of the benefits system, but it will be more coherent, transparent problem, because some of the same people struggle and understandable. now. As my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) said, there are opportunities in going However, there is an inherent problem in the single digital such as having translation online and different payment. At the moment, if somebody makes a mistake ways of presenting information. A mass of paper is in their housing benefit claim, only their housing benefit often more confusing. is affected, and if they make a mistake in their child tax credit claim, only that tax credit is affected. As universal credit will be a single benefit that is paid in a single Dame Anne Begg: Indeed, but a large number of our monthly payment to each household, if one of those witnesses said that there are people who are managing things goes wrong for one reason or another, it could in the present system who will not necessarily manage mean that a family’s whole income is withheld. That is under the new system. Somebody who is struggling at why it is a real challenge for the Government to get it the moment with a paper form will almost definitely right. It might mean that some individuals and households struggle with an online form, but there are people who do not get their benefit at all. By the time that is picked can manage a paper form who will not be able to up, it might be too late. The concern is over how quickly manage an online form. such people can be helped and how quickly they will be As housing benefit will go not to the landlord but to able to access the system. One of our key recommendations the individual, there are other groups that the current is about the speed of that identification. system supports who might have difficulties managing under universal credit. George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): I notice from the report that the Committee is keen to ensure Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): Given the that there is digital access via smartphones. I believe difficulty that many people have accessing applications that the Government are looking at that idea very through IT, does my hon. Friend recognise that this carefully and will implement it. I imagine that the hon. change will lead to a massive surge in demand for the Lady will welcome the idea that people will be able to help of advice centres? Does she have any thoughts on check their real-time universal credit status when they the additional support that such centres will require to are out on the street or on the move, and will thus have a help those people? much better idea of what they can and cannot do when out shopping or transacting in any way. Dame Anne Begg: Indeed, the report makes a strong recommendation on ensuring sufficient funds to support Citizens Advice and other advice and welfare rights Dame Anne Begg: Ministers’ responses suggest that groups. When they appeared before us, Ministers promised the smartphone technology may be some way off. There that there would be additional resources for such are issues with the security of the data. We have had organisations. There is a recognition that that there will some assurances from the Government on that. This is be difficulties, certainly with initial claims and when such a big reform that we could not, in our short people move on to universal credit. It would be foolhardy inquiry, look in detail at all of these matters and their of the Government to say that there will be no difficulties, implications. That is the challenge for the Government. and I do not think that they are. There are bound to be On the implementation timetable, the Government difficulties, and that is where such organisations have an have made great play of saying that there will not be a important role. big-bang effect, because universal credit will not come in for everybody on one day, but will have a slow Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Is my hon. roll-out. In the pathfinders that will operate from next Friend aware that only on Friday Ofcom published new April, it will be the easy claimants that are seen to first, statistics showing that 10% of the population simply such as single people who are on jobseeker’s allowance. have no access to broadband? However, people’s circumstances change, so it is imperative that the Government can foresee how universal credit Dame Anne Begg: I thought that the figure was 20%, will work in all circumstances for it to work even in the but perhaps the hon. Lady has given a more recent first cases. It will be no comfort to a claimant who figure than the one that was available when we wrote the receives no benefit in 2013 because there are failures in report. There is no doubt that there will be challenges the system or because it cannot cope with their change for people because of “digital by default”. of circumstances for the Government to say that the 773 Universal Credit22 NOVEMBER 2012 Universal Credit 774

[Dame Anne Begg] Kate Green: Was the Committee concerned that the protection for existing claimants, which means that problems will be sorted out by 2017. For each family, they will not lose out unless there is a change in their there will effectively be a big bang when they make a circumstances, might act as a disincentive to enter into new claim or when they move on to universal credit. We work, because they might worry that the job will not are hopeful that the Government are alert to those work out and that they will have to go on to universal concerns. credit for the first time, which could mean receiving a lower payment than they had previously? Jane Ellison: While there is cautious hope that the IT Dame Anne Begg: A number of witnesses pointed out systems will work, the report acknowledges that if they to the Committee that there can sometimes be unintended do work, particularly the real-time information element, consequences and that people’s behaviour does not it will alleviate many of the problems that we see in our always follow a logical pattern. What my hon. Friend surgeries, such as when people forget to report changes has said might be logical in certain cases. in their circumstances and end up with enormous arrears. Many decisions must still be made on passported That is a particular problem with tax credits. There is benefits. The Committee acknowledges that it is a difficult therefore the potential to solve one of the biggest problems issue, but it is essential for the Government to make a that affects many of our constituencies. decision. A lot of working families depend on passported benefits, and that is one of the elements that will make Dame Anne Begg: As the hon. Lady said, that is all work pay. I do not have time to consider in detail the dependent on the IT. A lot of what we are talking about localisation of council tax, although I have a feeling is dependent on the IT. That brings me on to my next that Ministers in the Department for Work and Pensions point. might share a few of the Labour party’s views on that, even if they do not say so publicly. We were not persuaded by the assurances from HMRC The concerns set out in the report about the impact that everything would be fine. We were concerned that of universal credit on vulnerable claimants are significant there appeared to be no proper contingency planning and should give the Government cause to reflect on the for where the IT does not work as expected or at all. The speed at which they plan to proceed. This is an important points that we make in the report are based on the reform for the Government, who have been willing to premise that it will work. Our concerns therefore come go where no other Government have feared to tread. on top of any problems that might arise because of Many have described it as a brave, radical step that the IT. should provide a more coherent and transparent benefit The report expresses concerns about the additional system for working-age people. It is therefore important costs of disability. Ministers have told us that the total that the Government get the implementation right, and expenditure on disabled people as a whole will not be ensure from the start that all 8 million households reduced under universal credit, but we are concerned affected by the reform will be able to access the help about individual disabled people whose entitlement they might need to make a claim. The success of universal will be reduced. Existing claimants will obviously have credit will be judged not on how well it works for those transitional protection, so they will not lose out in cash able to manage it, but on how well it serves the most terms immediately, but that protection will erode over vulnerable in society. time and will be lost if their circumstances change. Question put and agreed to. 775 22 NOVEMBER 2012 Life-saving Skills in Schools 776

Life-saving Skills in Schools Arhythmic Death Syndrome—UK? In my constituency, Robert and Maggie Underwood have already secured Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before I call 14 defibrillators for our schools and campaigned tirelessly the hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie for that charity. Morris) I inform the House that we intend to finish this debate at about a quarter to 3. I am seeking to protect Anne Marie Morris: My hon. Friend gives me added the next debate, so once the hon. Lady has moved the ammunition and I am delighted to hear what has happened motion I will decide whether to apply a time limit, and in her community. That is absolutely first rate. if so, I shall inform the House what that limit will be. Although we talk mainly about heart attacks, there 1.32 pm are more cases of cardiac arrest generally but we are not necessarily as aware of them. A person can suffer an Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I beg to arrest if they lose an excessive amount of blood, suffer a move, lack of oxygen, become very hot or very cold, or have a That this House believes every child should leave school knowing blood clot on the lung. It could happen to anybody. It how to save a life. does not have to be someone who suffers from heart First, a big thank you is due to the hon. Member for disease or is elderly; it could happen to any of us here. North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) and the As was alluded to earlier, 60,000 cardiac arrests happen Backbench Business Committee because without them outside hospitals—two thirds in the home and one third this important issue would not have been given air time. in public. In the public arena there is often a witness, This matter has concerned a number of Members for and in half those cases somebody who would be able to many years, and I pay tribute to those who have fought do something if they were properly trained. Irreversible on this issue, including my hon. Friend the Member for brain damage to an individual who is not helped can North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), and the hon. Members take place in very few minutes. Every minute counts and for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), for Bolton West (Julie there is a 10% reduction in someone’s chances of survival Hilling) and for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell). It is for every minute that passes. That must be put in something about which Members across the House feel context with the time the ambulance takes to arrive. strongly and passionately. The target at the moment is eight minutes, and 75% of What do I mean by emergency life-saving skills? For ambulances make that. If we do our maths, however, it most of us that includes some of the basic things that does not leave long to get professionals to the site. can be done for an individual before professional trained help arrives. It usually includes putting people into the recovery position and enabling them to lie down and Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): Does feel safe; helping people who are at risk of choking or my hon. Friend agree that this is not just about heart have severe bleeding injuries; and, perhaps the most attacks? Unbelievably, a four-year-old in my constituency well known, CPR—cardiopulmonary resuscitation—when who is a carer for her mother undertook training with somebody’s heart has stopped and they are not breathing. the local ambulance crew. She was able to put her Why has this issue been raised in connection with our mother in the recovery position and managed to save schools and schoolchildren? Most of us are passionate her life. That was at four years old. that if anything in life is truly important, it is life itself and how to save it. That being the case, the more widely Anne Marie Morris: That is a wonderful example of spread life-saving skills are, the better off we will be as a what can be done. There is often a sense that this issue community and society. If we start with schoolchildren applies only to older children, but younger children can we build a pyramid, and slowly but surely we begin to also learn valuable skills. inculcate those skills into society. Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): The hon. Lady Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I commend my hon. is introducing this debate very well indeed. When I was Friend on securing the debate. Does she agree that if we at school I did full St John Ambulance training that educate pupils, they in turn can educate their parents? A involved three or four days on a course and was extensive. school in Cheshire teaches emergency life support, and Training does not have to be like that, however; it can be I understand that a parent of one of its pupils was able quick, effective, short and clear instruction that could to administer the appropriate action when confronted result in saving many lives. Children are often at home with someone choking in a restaurant. in the kitchen near their parents and would be able to save a life if they had clear instruction. Anne Marie Morris: That is an excellent example and I thank my hon. Friend for her contribution. Anne Marie Morris: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. It takes two hours—that is all—to teach CPR. If we look across the world, the UK does not find Indeed, if CPR is applied, a person is three times more itself in a happy, comparable position in terms of the likely to survive. It is well worth while. A third of all teaching of ELS and survival rates. Our survival rate deaths in the UK result from cardiovascular disease and following a cardiac arrest is pretty poor and quite there are about 124,000 heart attacks each year. Heart variable—it depends on where someone is in the country. attacks are perhaps the most common situation in The survival rate for those who suffer an arrest is which people need life-saving skills. between 2% and 12% after they leave hospital. The British Heart Foundation estimates that 75% of people Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): I thank my hon. are untrained. That means that only 25% of the population Friend for securing this debate. Does she agree that have some training and the number of people in our great work has been done by the charity SADS—Sudden community who are able help is very small. 777 Life-saving Skills in Schools22 NOVEMBER 2012 Life-saving Skills in Schools 778

Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): My hon. Friend is is that they enjoy it, and that it gives them a broader sense generous in giving way. Speaking to the British Heart of self-worth and value within the community. Seventy Foundation today, I discovered that only 13% of children per cent. of parents believe it should be taught. This leave school with some sort of training in CPR. Although will not be an uphill battle, because everybody wants it. I have reservations about making such training compulsory There was a moment when ELS became front and in schools, does she agree that making CPR courses foremost in everyone’s thinking—when Fabrice Muamba available to children and encouraging their use in schools tragically collapsed on the football pitch in March. But is key? for an individual with ELS skills coming on to the pitch, he may not have survived as well as he has. That Anne Marie Morris: That courses are available and led to the Love Heart campaign in The Sun—well done recommended is key, but I will come to compulsion to The Sun; that was a great campaign that attracted a later. My hon. Friend is right that the number of children lot of support. Ultimately, a petition of 130,000 signatures who have access to training is relatively small, but all was delivered, asking for us to ensure that we have ELS credit to the British Heart Foundation, which started its training in schools. Support in the charitable and third Heartstart programme in 1996. We now have courses in sectors is huge. The British Heart Foundation, the life-saving skills in 400 of our secondary schools. The British Medical Association, Cardiac Risk in the Young, problem is that it has taken 16 years to cover only 10% St John Ambulance and the Red Cross support it—I of secondary schools, so it will take an awfully long could go on, but I am conscious that time is not on my time to get to 100%. side. The position in Europe is much better. Eighty per As hon. Members have said, there are some great cent. of residents of Scandinavia and Germany have examples of the community providing training voluntarily. first aid skills because they learned them in schools and Dawlish community college in my constituency does elsewhere. The survival rate from a shockable cardiac one whole day on emergency life-saving skills for year arrest in Norway is 52%, whereas our survival rate is 10s. A recent Ofsted report found the school to be good, between 2% and 12%. Compulsory training is common and outstanding for leadership and management. Doesn’t in Europe—Norway, Denmark and France are good that show? examples. Across the pond, 36 US states have legislation What is the way forward? The first option is that we requiring the training. The cardiac arrest survival rate could continue with the status quo, but as we have seen, in Seattle is twice what the survival rate is in the UK, results are patchy. ELS is included in PHSE, but it is not and 50% of the population is trained. mandatory or delivered consistently. CPR is often not included. My view is that we will not achieve what we Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Does the hon. need to achieve as a society with the status quo. Lady agree that there is a lack of understanding in this The second option is making ELS a mandatory piece country that young people suffer cardiac arrest? We of the PHSE curriculum. Under the current review, need to do more, because it is not just an older persons’ although PHSE will not be mandatory, the Minister has illness. said that bits of it will be identified and made so. ELS could be included in the science or physical education Anne Marie Morris: The hon. Gentleman makes an curriculums. The Minister could also consider including appropriate point. He is right. There is an additional it as a compulsory element in teacher training, so at benefit—on top of the volume of people who will end least our teachers will have the training. She could also up trained—because cardiac arrest happens to young think about including it as a necessary part of the people as well. National Citizen Service programme. The second option has been debated on many occasions, Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): and the objections to it have been very much the same The hon. Lady is extremely generous in giving way, and each time. Let me briefly rehearse them and say why I congratulate her on securing this debate. She mentioned they no longer stand ground. The first argument is that a number of countries and US states where training is the curriculum is too full and teachers need choice. I compulsory. Compulsory training could give us much agree that the curriculum is too full and that we need to greater chances of survival. I hope she will tell us she is ensure that the core subjects are taught well, but I also in favour of mandatory training. agree with choice. It is appropriate to consider what is included in PHSE. When the matter was last debated, Anne Marie Morris: The right hon. Lady makes an even my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing appropriate and fair point. As they say in business, what and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who was then the gets measured gets done. We have training in this country, answering Minister, could see the priority of ELS. He but it is not measured. There is no record of how much was lobbied to include knitting in PHSE, but agreed CPR is included. ELS is included in personal, social, that knitting simply does not have the same value as health and economic education, but it is not consistent. ELS. It is perfectly possible both to include it and to We consequently do not get the results that other countries retain flexibility in the curriculum. As I have said, it is get. only a two-hour course. On choice, we could say to Why do we raise the issue of life-saving skills now? schools, “It is compulsory, but you have the choice of In part, because we have the evidence, some of which I including it in PHSE, science or PE, but it must be have just shared with the House, but there is also clear measured by Ofsted.” That would give flexibility. public support. In response to the British Heart Foundation The second argument usually advanced against the survey in February 2011, 86% of teachers said ELS proposal is cost and resource. The British Heart Foundation should be included in the curriculum, and 78% of has estimated that it will cost £2,200 a year per school, children said they wanted to be taught it. The evidence but that is not a huge amount of money. The charitable 779 Life-saving Skills in Schools22 NOVEMBER 2012 Life-saving Skills in Schools 780 sector, trainee doctors and general practitioners can get Members on bringing this issue before the House, and involved in teaching on a voluntary basis. They will do commend all the newspaper and petitioning activity it for free, and the cascade principle says that if we teach that led to that. It is not every motion before the House the teachers, they will teach others and so on. I suspect of which we can say it will save thousands of lives and that the number of people wanting to get involved and cost very little, but that is precisely what this motion will to help for free would make this a relatively inexpensive do if the Government follow through on it, as the hon. activity. Lady has been advocating. I wholeheartedly agree with We must set that against the cost to the public purse. everything she said about making it mandatory and If an increasing number of people have brain damage with her demolition of all the arguments against it. when they need not have it and are kept on life support In the brief time allowed, I want to refer to a programme machines in hospitals, or if there is an increasing number that originated 15 years ago at the John Radcliffe hospital of people who survive but who must be supported at in my constituency, which has been extended to nine home, the bill goes up. A day in hospital costs £400 or other centres in the UK and emulated overseas in Hong £500. As hon. Members know, disability living allowance Kong and Belarus. The injury minimisation programme can be £131 a week. That adds up to a sizeable bill. It is for schools was, like most of the best ideas, very simple not just about money—there is also a cost to the family and obvious once someone was clever enough to think and society. As a nation, we believe in prevention rather of it. The idea is that if we educate children in accident than cure. The question, therefore, is not whether we prevention and what to do when there is an accident, can afford to do this, but whether we can afford not to. and at an age when they are old enough to understand and apply the lessons but before they become especially Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I sensitive about their bodies, that will cut accidents and congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing this important save lives. The programme works by combining work in issue to the Floor of the House. I was contacted by a the classroom with a visit to hospital to learn emergency constituent whose brother-in-law had a huge heart attack life skills. Approximately 5,000 10 and 11-year-olds in at the age of 46 while at work. If a colleague of his had Oxfordshire take part each year. Children enjoy it, teachers not had CPR skills to keep him alive until the ambulance value it, and, most importantly, it works. arrived, he would have passed away. Does that not I congratulate all who work on the programme—its emphasise how important it is to give our young people administrators and volunteers, as well as the medical those skills for the whole of their lives to help to save staff and teachers. I have met children on the course, other people’s lives? and it is uplifting to see their enthusiasm for the knowledge and practical skills that they have learned, and how Anne Marie Morris: My hon. Friend is absolutely proud they are to go home and tell their parents that right, and leads me to the third and final objection I they know how to save their life. I have one feedback suspect will be raised, which is the problem of physically message from a youngster who went on the programme: damaging somebody’s health through CPR by, for example, “I have shown my mum how to do the recovery position! She breaking a rib. No one has ever been sued for helping was very impressed! I told her about CPR and I now know that if somebody in those circumstances. When a person has a someone has collapsed then I could save their life. Hope you enjoy cardiac arrest, they are almost clinically dead—only the my feedback. Please carry on teaching children to save people’s brain is still going. So someone helping a person who lives.” has had a cardiac arrest cannot do any more physical damage because the person is pretty much dead, and no Andrew Bridgen: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree one has been sued; indeed, I do not believe that people that if the practice were adopted and made mandatory, in this country would support such legal action. In it could improve social cohesion? Young people could exchange for training, these young people have a huge have the skills to save the lives of people from the older opportunity. generation, and that would change perceptions in society. In conclusion, the case has been made for emergency life-saving skills to be taught in schools consistently, to Mr Smith: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. ensure it happens in all schools. It is the right thing It is vital to understand what children are capable of, to do for society and for the economy. It is not just a and that we do not underestimate the live-saving skills decision for the Secretary of State for Education. For they can learn. There is hard evidence for that. In a all the reasons I have mentioned, the Minister should scientific abstract to the international conference on work with the Department of Health, the Department emergency medicine in June, the journal Academic for Work and Pensions, the Department for Communities Emergency Medicine reported on a study assessing whether and Local Government, and the Cabinet Office. This is children can defibrillate. The study was done properly a broad issue. Not making it mandatory is the triumph and rigorously, with control groups and so on, and of hope over experience. chi-squared analysis of the conclusion. In concluded: “This study demonstrates that children aged 11-years-old can Several hon. Members rose— use a defibrillator effectively and safely, and retain this knowledge over several weeks”— Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. There is and that active training, unsurprisingly, is the most now a seven-minute limit on speeches. effective way of teaching it to them. Dame Joan Ruddock: There is perhaps even more 1.49 pm important feedback in the case histories that the St John Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I warmly Ambulance has circulated to all hon. Members, where welcome this debate. I congratulate the hon. Member children of that age have been shown to save lives, either for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) and other hon. of their peers or of their parents in some circumstances. 781 Life-saving Skills in Schools22 NOVEMBER 2012 Life-saving Skills in Schools 782

Mr Smith: I wholeheartedly agree, and I have similar to step in. Thankfully, the evidence clearly shows that, evidence from IMPS. What is more, and as the hon. with training, lay people can overcome the psychological Member for Newton Abbot argued, such initiatives are barriers and manage the patient until more advanced very cost-effective. The IMPS estimate is that it costs and experienced personnel arrive. approximately £16 a head to enable children to take Those are the cold, hard statistics, but I was in such a part. I would like to raise a couple of points about position with my own father. When I was 12, my father funding. collapsed. My attempts to help were, at best, muddled, In Oxfordshire, 50% of the cost of IMPS has been and passers-by then helped. We all rely on people having met by the PCT, there has been some support from the that confidence to go and make a difference. Sadly, my county council, and the rest of the cost has been met by father was one of those statistics who did not survive. fundraising initiatives. Of course, classroom time and We will never know, had we all been equipped with the teacher involvement is met from the base education skills, what difference that would have made. budget, which is right because there are wider commensurate What we are asking for would take only 0.2% of the educational benefits relating to the self-esteem of children school year. It takes less than two hours to train a who take part. Funding for some of the other centres is young person fully in emergency life-saving skills. To under acute pressure. Sadly, the Kensington, Chelsea put that into context, that is the equivalent of one PE and Westminster IMPS closed because of shortage lesson. I am conscious that schools Ministers are for of funds—absolutely tragic when one thinks of the ever lobbied by campaigns saying, “This would be very benefits. important for the national curriculum.” I am as guilty There is also a general issue about future funding as any MP for asking for financial education, basic with the establishment of the NHS Commissioning cookery skills and a variety of other campaigns. However, Board. It would be helpful if the Minister could tell us we are trying to be helpful; we would be happy if such whether funding for this sort of initiative will be the training were included in PSHE, as long as it was a responsibility of the Commissioning Board as the main mandatory part of it. It could go into biology, as one successor to the PCT, whether it will fall to the county understands how the breathing system and the heart council with its public health responsibilities, or whether works. It could go into PE lessons, especially given the responsibility will be shared. Whichever it is, it is the number of sports therapists we would like to essential that IMPS and similar initiatives are enabled encourage. We are not proud—as long as we can get it to continue and thrive to form the basis of what we in somewhere. hope will be part of the mandatory curriculum provision We are told that there is a limit to the amount of time for which we are arguing. At the end of the day, there available in the national curriculum, yet we find time for can be nothing more important than helping children every school to practise fire drills. They are important, save lives, both their own and those of others. but 60,000 people a year having a cardiac arrest is certainly up there with fire drills. We could take the 1.55 pm training in assemblies. If we really are struggling with Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I congratulate the school curriculum, then there are always driving my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne lessons, because all young people want to take lessons—we Marie Morris) on securing the debate on a subject that I are trying to be as helpful as we possibly can be. know she is passionate about. I also congratulate my The training is straightforward. At a recent meeting hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) of the all-party group on heart disease, I and all of my and the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), as staff took part, and it was a breeze—it was pretty we have been pushing on this collectively for some time. impressive for us for it to be a breeze. The training can I feel that we are making some progress. be broken into three levels and even the most basic form The debate is essential, because we are talking about of training can make a difference. For example, the creating the next generation of life-savers. Let me use body has enough oxygen in the blood so that even basic some cold, hard statistics to reinforce that point. Some compression CPR is sufficient for 15 minutes. Crucially, 60,000 people a year will have a cardiac arrest. The these skills will remain with people for the rest of their survival rates in this country are disgracefully low—between lives. We will create a new generation of life-savers and 2% and 12%—which means that approximately they can pass their skills on, so it is a win-win situation. 55,000 people a year will die from a cardiac arrest. We have the evidence that it will work. It will allow us to About half of those are, in theory, able to get help change the prognosis of this devastating condition and through the ambulance service, but on average it takes save thousands of lives a year. approximately 6 to 12 minutes for an emergency ambulance My hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot to reach a critically ill patient. For every minute that made great play of international comparisons, talking passes, the chance of survival falls by 10%. However, if about the improvements in France, Denmark, Norway CPR is given immediately, survival rates increase threefold. and Seattle. The cold, hard statistics show that, where As my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot said, such training is compulsory, survival rates are not 2% to we really cannot do any worse by leaving somebody in 12% but 52%. That means that an extra 15,000 lives a that position. year would be saved. The great shame is that most people are simply not able to help. For about half of the 60,000, there are Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): Does my hon. witnesses on hand who could help, but most either do Friend agree that children would thoroughly enjoy learning not have the skills or lack the confidence even to try emergency life-saving in school? Instead of sitting in the something. By training and educating individuals, we classroom reading books, they would be getting involved; can radically alter the situation. I have heard horrific it is hands-on. They would enjoy it, and learn quickly, stories of crowds gathering round, with no one willing too. 783 Life-saving Skills in Schools22 NOVEMBER 2012 Life-saving Skills in Schools 784

Justin Tomlinson: My hon. Friend has been a good Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): It will come as supporter of our ongoing campaign, and his question no surprise that Scotland has had voluntary engagement leads me on to my next point. with pupils in schools for some time. In Inverclyde, This idea has huge public support. According to a we offered it to children in their lunch break, and we British Heart Foundation survey, 86% of teachers think were astounded by how many came forward to learn that ELS should be part of the national curriculum—we these skills. have the opportunity to get teachers’ support—and 78% of children want to be taught how to save someone’s Valerie Vaz: I agree with my hon. Friend. As we have life in an emergency, which touches on my hon. Friend’s heard, different parts of different countries are doing point. Furthermore, 70% of parents thought that children this on a voluntary basis, but we are calling for something should be taught ELS at school. more: for it to be compulsory as part of education. Following Fabrice Muamba’s cardiac arrest and with I had the privilege of administering CPR during the the help of a campaign by The Sun, which we all supported, last conference recess. Most Members—certainly of my more than 100,000 people signed the e-petition—it is one generation—will know the tune of “Stayin’ Alive” by of the few that quickly racked up the 100,000 signatures. the Bee Gees. That is the kind of rhythm one should use I was delighted to read today that, although Fabrice to administer CPR. [Interruption.] I will not sing it, Muamba thought his football career was over, he has although I can hum it. I want to bring that up to date. I said he will review that decision in two years, if his heart do not know, Mr Deputy Speaker, if you have seen this rate settles. That would be a fantastic achievement. He hit song on YouTube, but “Gangnam Style” has a similar was technically dead for more than 70 minutes, but, beat, and in fact the first movement of the dance is because of ELS, he survived, and he has gone on to get similar to that required for administering CPR—as long married. That is a testament to the difference it can make. as the person uncrosses their hands. Imagine teaching In conclusion, ELS would make a real difference to that in schools. How wonderful it would be to engage survival rates. Training takes less than two hours, and children in that way. the skills remain for life. Through education empowerment, The British Medical Association has said that almost a new generation of life-savers will be created, saving 60,000 people suffer from out-of-hospital strokes, and thousands of lives a year. I hope that we can make this a evidence shows that CPR can triple the rate of survival. compulsory element of children’s education and create I urge the Government to take that onboard, to listen to an army of life-savers with the confidence and skills Back Benchers—for a change—and to include training to save a life. on it as part of the curriculum. It is compulsory in Norway, Denmark and France. Let us embed it in our 2.2 pm children’s psyche, engrain it and make it part of their Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I congratulate the DNA. After all, it is a matter of life and death. hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris)—I hope her foot gets better—and pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), who 2.6 pm had a ten-minute rule Bill on this issue in the previous Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): In making Session, which sadly fell. I congratulate other Members, a brief contribution, I shall carry on where the hon. too, who have taken this message forward. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) left off—with I am a signatory to early-day motion 550, which calls how a piece of music can save a life. She is so right. In a for compulsory ELS in schools. I have also undertaken slightly different context, I remember listening to a a three-day course with St John Ambulance—so I know, radio interview with the wife of the great violinist, I hope, how to save a life—and I am a member of the YehudiMenuhin. She said she was always terribly worried Health Committee. Making ELS compulsory in schools when her husband played Beethoven’s violin concerto, would send the message to children: “Don’t walk on the and when it got to a certain bit—when she knew the end other side. Youcan help someone. When you see someone, was nigh—she used to sing to herself, “Thank God it’s you can help them.” That is an incredibly empowering over, thank God it’s over”. That has ruined Beethoven’s message. The simple task of knowing the recovery violin concerto for me ever since, because I have never position, or even knowing when not to move a person—for been able to get it out of my mind. example, if they have hurt their neck—are important Reading the briefing, I did indeed see that, “Ah, ha, skills. We are saying to them, “Don’t be afraid. You can ha, ha, stayin’ alive” is apparently the rhythm that be concerned, but don’t be afraid when someone is should be followed when administering CPR. I read having a heart attack or is distressed.” that in the context of a report from the Daily Mail on There are many children with conditions such as 10 January, helpfully included by the Library in the epilepsy or even diabetes—they will have to inject debate pack. In it Dr Rob Galloway told the story of themselves—and children with siblings or parents with the rector of St Nicholas church in Sevenoaks, Angus such conditions. They will understand these conditions MacLeay, who collapsed at the age of 51 and died—but and be able to help. This idea is just an extension of his son and his friend had been told how to administer that. The 2001 census found that 174,995 under-18s are CPR. The report read: carers. So many children already know how to look after adults. There are four simple measures: dialling “Although they had only a few hours’ training, it’s all they 999; administering CPR; putting someone in the recovery needed to know instinctively what to do. They took it in turns, position; or simply staying with them, holding their pushing down on the chest in a continuous cycle” hand and talking to them. That can save lives, and those that the experts say should, indeed, follow the rhythm measures are the basis of ELS. It should be compulsory of that famous Bee Gees song. Two weeks later he was for them to be taught in schools back at home, having died and been saved by his son. 785 Life-saving Skills in Schools22 NOVEMBER 2012 Life-saving Skills in Schools 786

Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): It also works if the On 17 March this year, Fabrice Muamba was playing person sings “Nellie the Elephant”—for those of us who for Bolton Wanderers against Tottenham when he suffered are more musically challenged or who cannot remember a cardiac arrest. Fabrice was really lucky, because he “Stayin’ Alive”—although it has to be a fast version. had his cardiac arrest in a public place where there were trained first aiders; because the paramedics at the match Dr Lewis: I look forward to the hon. Lady’s rendition were knowledgeable enough to give him immediate when she speaks—very shortly, I hope—and I pay tribute CPR on the pitch, so that his brain was saved; and to her, to my hon. Friend the Member for Newton because medics did not give up, but worked on him for Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) and to other hon. Members. 78 minutes until his heart restarted. Just because he was I was particularly touched by the contribution from my with people who knew what to do he survived, although hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin sadly he has had to give up football—I was interested to Tomlinson), when he said what happened to him and hear the hon. Member for North Swindon say that it his late father. might not be for life. Fabrice joined us to take the British My own background in this subject is slight. I have Heart Foundation’s petition, signed by 124,665 people, been involved with organisations such as Cardiac Risk to Downing street. in the Young, which campaigns to have young people My sister’s friend Malcolm McCormick was also screened for heart defects that otherwise no one would really lucky. In April this year, he went to school to pick know were present, and with the battle to save the up his grandchildren when he keeled over—effectively children’s heart hospital at Southampton general hospital, dead, not breathing, heart not beating. Malcolm was which is one of the best in the country and fortunately really lucky because one of the people waiting to collect will not now be reorganised out of existence. their children was a retained firefighter, who started My immediate incentive for coming to today’s debate to give CPR. He was also really lucky because once a was a letter I received from my constituent Natasha month another firefighter volunteers in the school tuck Jones, who lives in Brockenhurst, who has set up an shop and it was his Friday to be working, so he came organisation called Baby Resuscitation. During the summer out and took control of the situation. Malcolm was of 2010, she experienced an episode with her 11-week-old also lucky because a defibrillator was available and he daughter of what is known as near-miss cot death, was rushed to a specialist hospital. Malcolm left hospital when her baby stopped breathing and was drifting in three days later with very sore ribs, albeit alive and with and out of consciousness. At the time, my constituent his brain intact. Four months later was fit enough to be had no resuscitation training. It was only her maternal a games maker at the Paralympic games. instincts that succeeded in keeping her baby alive until However, it should not be down to luck, because professional arrived. As in the case of so many others, there are far too many other examples of people suffering including my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon, a cardiac arrest not being saved because the people the experience motivated my constituent, spurring her around them do not know what to do. They include on to do something to ensure that the availability of children such as Ciaran Geddes, who died aged seven, skill would not be hit and miss in future. That is why she 12-year-old Oliver King, 16-year-old Daniel Young and set up the Baby Resuscitation scheme, which is over- 17-year-old Guy Evans. Their mums are campaigning subscribed and to which parents go to get the skills they for defibrillators and for emergency life-saving skills to need. The point she makes to me is how much more be taught in schools. The Government have a chance to vitally helpful and productive it would be if children make a difference—to save lives simply, cheaply and had to learn such skills at school. immediately. They have said that they want a national I know many people want to speak. This seems to me curriculum to reflect the such an obviously admirable cause that I do not need to “essential knowledge and understanding that pupils should be say anything more, other than that I wholeheartedly expected to have to enable them to take their place as educated support it and I look to Minister to give the campaign members of society.” the encouragement and endorsement that it clearly deserves. Surely knowing how to save a life would be absolutely in keeping with that aspiration. 2.11 pm I cannot imagine anything worse than watching a loved one die and not knowing what to do—especially if we Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I join others in find out later that doing something may have saved their congratulating the hon. Member for Newton Abbot life—so I have become a Heartstart trainer. I can teach (Anne Marie Morris) on securing this debate. I also pay people to do CPR and deal with choking and bleeding, tribute to my colleagues in the campaign, the hon. and my staff are Heartstart trained. All the secondary Members for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) and schools in Bolton West have become or are becoming for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), which is dear to our hearts. Heartstart schools, and they are rolling the programme This is a out to the primary schools. There is co-ordinated action “no brainer, it’s just common sense”. across Bolton to train as many children and adults in Those are not my words, but the words of Dr Andy emergency life support skills as possible. The North Lockey from the Resuscitation Council. He and another West ambulance service, the fire brigade, Bolton Wanderers, 124,665 people are calling on the Government to put Bolton council and the British Heart Foundation are all emergency life support skills in the curriculum for all working together to teach the skills and promote schools. For just two hours every year, we could make defibrillators. In the new year, The Bolton News will run every child a life saver—just two hours that may save a campaign to get schools to sign up for Heartstart and some of the 150,000 people who die each year in situations raise funds for defibrillators in schools and public places. where first aid could have made a difference; two hours Fabrice Muamba’s collapse raised awareness locally that could save some of the 60,000 people who have a about the dangers of sudden cardiac arrest. The response cardiac arrest outside the hospital environment. in Bolton has been fantastic, but it cannot go far enough 787 Life-saving Skills in Schools22 NOVEMBER 2012 Life-saving Skills in Schools 788 until every child leaves school a life saver. I met two scared or because they did not know what to do. The 13-year-olds in Horwich on Saturday who had just lady was unconscious, and was still unconscious when learnt life support skills as part of their PE lessons in the ambulance arrived. Again, it was people’s lack of Rivington and Blackrod high school. Demi told me it knowledge that prevented them from doing even the made her feel good about herself because she can save a basic checks—that her pulse was there and she was life. Matthew told me that he feels confident because if breathing. anything happened to someone, he would know what to On another occasion I was on a train, travelling into do. Mark Roach, the Heartstart co-ordinator at Ladybridge London, sitting opposite a very large gentleman who high school, told me that his pupils leave school with a was clearly in difficulty. My assessment was that he was real life skill that they can pass on to others, and they do having a cardiac episode of some kind. We cleared the the lessons during form time. There are many places area around him. I asked whether there were any doctors where Heartstart would fit into the curriculum. My or nurses on the train; there were not. People were local lead teacher for PE believes it would fit perfectly coming up to me as I was in the middle of it all, asking, into the PE curriculum. Other schools do it as part of “Shouldn’t you ring his wife?” I got someone to stay with personal, social, health and economic education or the man and keep him calm, went down the carriage biology, but where it fits is less important. Emergency with the woman and said, “Well, what do we tell her—that life support skills should be part of the core curriculum, her husband is having an episode on a train in the taught in all schools. middle of nowhere and we don’t know which hospital The Government like to compare themselves he is going to?” “Oh,” she said. Common sense, I am internationally. As has been said, in France, Denmark afraid, rather goes out of the window when these things and Norway, ELS is already a compulsory part of the happen. He was a very large gentleman and I was curriculum, as it is in a number of states in Australia worried that if he actually went on me, he would not fit and 36 of the 50 states in America. In Seattle, because in the gap between the seats so that I could do CPR. So no one can graduate from school or gain their driving I was struggling about how I was going to do it, but licence without leaning first aid skills, more than half fortunately we got to a station and the ambulance got the population is trained in emergency life support. In there and took him away for expert treatment. Again, at the UK, there is only a 30% chance of a bystander the end of that, people came up and said, “Thank God administered CPR; in Seattle it is 60%. People have you were there. We didn’t know what to do. We were double the chance of surviving a cardiac arrest in scared”—exactly the same comments. Seattle than they do in the UK. Since the British Heart The final example was in Brighton, at the Grand Foundation has run its “Hands-only CPR” advert with hotel, when I was having a dinner during conference. Vinnie Jones—to “Stayin’ Alive”—another 28 people One of the guests started choking, slumped and started have been saved because bystanders “had a go”, but it is to go blue. So it was a Heimlich manoeuvre. I have to not enough. As Dr Lockey says, say it was my boss, so it was probably just as well I did “Every year we don’t teach Emergency Life Support Skills to it, not least because he is alive and I have now just all school children, people are dying unnecessarily”. married him; but that is another story. The Government should act now and make emergency life support skills part of the core curriculum in schools. Valerie Vaz: Too much information. They can save lives now. Alison Seabeck: Yes. But again, the comments came 2.17 pm back, “Thank heavens. We didn’t know what to do.” Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I cannot The basic skills are so simple and so easy to teach, and tell you how important I think this debate is, Mr Deputy once you have them you almost automatically go into Speaker. I congratulate the hon. Member for Newton support mode, as I did in the hotel in Brighton. I admit Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) on securing it. I also that afterwards I was shaking a bit, but none the less congratulate the hon. Members who have spoken—with you just do it, because that is what you have been trained a great deal of knowledge and personal experience—about to do. how important this issue is. The hon. Lady made an Children are like sponges. They soak up information, excellent speech, touching on all the key issues, and and if they can see a practical use for it, they will learn asked most of the key questions. even more quickly. This week, I am going to talk to I will speak from personal experience. I qualified as pupils at Manadon Vale primary school about this very a lifeguard in the mid-1990s. I did it to support my issue, as part of the discussion. Knowing basic techniques, daughters, who were in a swimming club that needed such as being able to administer support when someone voluntary lifeguards. I trained every two years and did is having a cardiac arrest, is absolutely vital. As my hon. the exam. During that process my children trained with Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) said, me—we used to practise the various required skills on being in a situation where a loved one is having a the front room floor. I was fortunate that there were no cardiac arrest or perhaps where the baby is choking and major incidents in the pool during the almost 10 years not knowing what to do is unimaginable. I really cannot in which I turned up five nights a week to lifeguard—as imagine how someone must feel in those circumstances. parents do from time to time. However, on dry land it Teaching the basics is so important. was altogether different. Let me cite some examples. Of course there are people who say, “I don’t want to I remember stepping off a London bus one day to see do the mouth-to-mouth bit.” They could do hands-only, a woman lying on the pavement, literally in front of me, as a number of Members have said. I still walk around and five people standing around, before doing the basic carrying a British Red Cross Resusci-Shield for mouth- checks and asking people, “Has anybody done anything? to-mouth, because I do think it is important to have Has anybody moved her?” Everybody stood there, shook one, but it is possible to do it hands-only, and one their heads and said no, either because they were too certainly should try. 789 Life-saving Skills in Schools22 NOVEMBER 2012 Life-saving Skills in Schools 790

[Alison Seabeck] My right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) rightly said that we must not underestimate The hon. Member for Newton Abbot spoke about what children are capable of. The hon. Member for the lesson in which these skills should be taught being North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) rightly said that we flexible. I think that is a really good proposal. I do think need to get on and train the next generation of live-savers, we need to move towards ensuring these skills are and he mentioned, as other Members did, the survival taught as a matter of course in our schools. I think rate of 2% to 12% of cardiac arrests in this country pregnant mothers should have a basic training as well, compared with 52% in the better jurisdictions. He also, because there are lives to be saved there. The idea that movingly, told us about his own personal experience such training is too onerous is a perennial excuse. I involving his father, which brought a lot of sympathy really ask the Minister not to hide behind that, because from across the House. it is absolutely doable. My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South (Valerie Importantly, I would ask the Minister to go away and Vaz) did her speech gangnam-style, which I thought talk with colleagues in other Departments—in Health very appropriate. On MP4’s album, track 2, “Love’s and in Communities and Local Government—because Fire,” is also about the same rhythm, although it is not there are benefits across other Departments and there as well known as the other examples given. The hon. are possibly even some cost savings, ultimately, which Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) also spoke the Government are obviously very interested in. Most with personal experience. I can assure him that no one important of all, lives will be saved. Children and young was saying, “Thank God it’s over,” at the end of his people are very capable of using these skills, and that is speech, which was a very effective contribution. the time to teach them. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), who herself is common sense on legs, told us 2.24 pm that it is simply common sense for us to be teaching Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I shall speak these skills and making that teaching compulsory. She very briefly; I am a late interloper into the debate, but I gave us real examples of where young lives had been wanted to raise two points. Actually, my hon. Friend saved. We also heard from my hon. Friend the Member the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck), who brought has touched on them already. I recently attended a her personal experience as a trained lifeguard and saved demonstration of CPR. The instructor was at pains to her future husband as a result of that training. Only time say that mouth-to-mouth was not essential but CPR will tell whether she lives to regret that but, all joking was, and that some people are put off volunteering for aside, she showed the importance of these skills. Briefly, such courses because they are fearful of engaging in my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. That is what my hon. Hopkins) drew on his personal experience. Friend said, so she emphasised, “Do not press the We support the inclusion of live-saving skills as a mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.” compulsory element in our schools. We are open-minded, I congratulate the hon. Member for Newton Abbot as hon. Members said, as to how we achieve that—PSHE (Anne Marie Morris) on launching this superb debate, might be the best subject in which to include that on a and all those who spoke so excellently. My hon. Friend statutory basis. The motion does not actually spell that the Member for Plymouth, Moor View deserves a medal out, but it says that everyone should learn these skills. because she has saved several lives. My question on these occasions always is, “If that is what the House wants to happen, what is the transmissions I want to speak specifically about water life-saving, mechanism to ensure that it does happen?”The Government because 55 years ago I acquired an intermediate life-saver’s frequently talk about the necessity of following the certificate. I have never had to use it, but I think even examples of high-performing jurisdictions when we are now I could do the basics and get someone out of the looking at what schools do well and at the outcomes. So water without drowning myself, and get them breathing how about the Government, on this occasion, following again—free their tongue, and all the things that I their own advice and looking at what happens in high- remembered when I was 14 or 15. That is a subset of performing jurisdictions around the world as far as life-saving, but it is very important and I hope that the life-saving skills are concerned? I am afraid the evidence Government bear in mind the encouragement for people is clear that unless the Government spell out that such to take up life-saving in water as well as dealing with training should be compulsory and must be taught in cardiac arrests. schools, it simply will not work and we will continue to Those were the two points that I wanted to raise, have the very slow progress that the hon. Member for Mr Deputy Speaker. I promised to speak for two minutes, Newton Abbot talked about in her speech, in terms of and I hope it is not too long. saving lives. That would not be acceptable, because we are talking 2.25 pm about people’s lives. What is the barrier anyway? All the Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): We have had a arguments against the proposal have been demolished very good debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for in the debate, so the only objection can be an ideological Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris), whose name appears one relating to telling schools what to do. That is not a at the head of the motion, on her very fine speech, good enough reason when we are talking about saving which drew a lot of agreement across the House. She lives. Unless this is made a requirement in all our schools, was absolutely right to emphasise that without compulsion, it will happen only in some of them. We can already see we simply will not get the levels of performance that we that on the ground. want to see and the number of lives saved that we want, Earlier this afternoon, just before I dashed over here in comparison with other countries. I shall return to for the debate, I was talking to children from Lansdowne that point later. primary school in my constituency. I took the opportunity 791 Life-saving Skills in Schools22 NOVEMBER 2012 Life-saving Skills in Schools 792 to talk to them about life-saving skills, and some of that she is in charge of her brief and that she is going to them had been taught those skills, but only as part of get on and make this training compulsory, as everyone their first aid club activities. So some had been taught here has called for today. them, but not all. When I asked whether they thought that everyone should learn them, they were unanimous 2.33 pm in agreeing that they should. Children and young people are up for this, and as has been observed, they are like The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education sponges and can learn these skills quite quickly. The (Elizabeth Truss): We have had an interesting debate, training need not take up a huge, burdensome amount and I know that many people feel very strongly about of time in the curriculum. There is therefore no reason the provision of emergency life support skills in schools. for the Government not to listen to what has been said I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newton by Members on both sides of the House today and Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) and her colleagues, who come forward with proposals to ensure that this training have come together to put the subject on the agenda happens in all our schools. today. I have learned a great deal today about ELS, about staying alive and about the singing skills of some As the Government’s changes to the school system Members. The next time I tune in to “Saturday Night continue, this proposal will become more difficult to Fever”, I shall no doubt think about resuscitation. implement. It is already the case that nearly half of all secondary schools do not have to follow the national We have heard some affecting stories about the impact curriculum, following the academisation programme. of ELS and cardio-pulmonary resuscitation training on We have heard today about the £1 billion overspend on Members and their families. I am grateful to have had that programme, which will take money away from the opportunity to hear them, and to have the subject other areas of the Department for Education’s budget. brought to life. I agree that the ability to save a life is We have no evidence yet to show whether their one of the most important skills a young person can academisation programme is working. It is fine to change learn. I also recognise the excellent work being done by the name and governance of a group of schools, but we organisations such as the Red Cross, with its “Life. Live need to see evidence that that is working. There is, it” campaign and resources, and St John Ambulance however, evidence of the negative impact of those cuts with its classroom-focused “Teach the Difference”resources being felt elsewhere. If academies are not required to and schools first aid competition. In addition, the British follow the national curriculum and cannot be directed Heart Foundation’s Heartstart campaign has already to introduce these programmes, it is likely that the trained 2.6 million people, including many young people life-saving skills situation will get worse. The Minister in our schools. I met representatives of that organisation needs to get a grip on this. earlier this week. Mr Andrew Smith: While the Minister is talking about The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education those initiatives, will she respond to the question I posed (Elizabeth Truss): Is it not the case that the previous in my speech about whether the funding that currently Government introduced the idea that academies would comes from primary care trusts for initiatives such as not teach the national curriculum? the injury minimisation programme for schools—IMPS—in my constituency will in future be the responsibility of Kevin Brennan: Indeed it was, but that was a small, the commissioning groups or of the county council? If targeted programme aimed at a small number of schools she does not know, will she undertake to write to me in deprived areas. The hon. Lady’s policy is completely with the answer? different, in that it aims to roll out academy status. I think that about 47% of secondary schools in England Elizabeth Truss: I was just about to mention the right now have that status. So her policy is on a completely hon. Gentleman and IMPS. I will certainly take up different scale from ours, and she must adjust her policy the matter with the Department of Health in order to according to those facts. understand that specific point. The Minister will no doubt say that she hopes the Schools are free to take up all the programmes I have proposals will be introduced as a result of the motion just mentioned and to make use of those reputable being passed today, but unless she can tell us, perhaps in organisations in order to bring the subject to life and her forthcoming announcements, that they will be made teach it in a high-quality way in schools. I am keen to a statutory part of PHSE or that she has some other see a higher take-up of the subject; I think it is a good way of achieving this, it simply will not happen. I can thing. I want to see it done in such a way that quality predict here and now that, if she does not take action, will be on offer. The hon. Member for Cardiff West we will be back here debating this issue in a couple of (Kevin Brennan) asked how we could achieve what we years. Unless she makes this training a compulsory part want in Britain’s schools. Should it be done through of the curriculum, the statistics will not get much better. compulsion or through winning hearts and minds? I We support the motion, for all the reasons that have favour the approach of winning hearts and minds and been outlined in the debate, and the Minister should tell of improving practice in schools, rather than ordering the House whether she agrees with what has been said. something to be done compulsorily and not necessarily I know that she won the “Minister to Watch” award getting the quality we need. yesterday at The Spectator magazine’s Parliamentarian When the national curriculum was first devised in the of the Year awards. During her acceptance speech, she 1980s, it was seen as a slim guide to core knowledge, thanked the Secretary of State for Education for “not with schools having the freedom to teach in the way fettering or gagging” her. Well, here is an opportunity they saw fit. However, even its first draft was far larger for her to show that she is not being fettered or gagged than its originators intended. A lot of that came about by the Secretary of State, that she is her own woman, through people wanting particular subjects to be included, 793 Life-saving Skills in Schools22 NOVEMBER 2012 Life-saving Skills in Schools 794

[Elizabeth Truss] time to be able to teach those subjects. Our whole aim of giving teachers more discretion and more time will often for laudable reasons. I am now working on the surely mean much stronger take-up. As my hon. Friend drafts for the new national curriculum at primary and the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) secondary level, and it is our intention that it should be pointed out, 86% of teachers want this subject to be slimmed to reflect a framework for essential knowledge. taught. That is already a long way towards 100%; there It has been rather content-heavy in the past, which has is only another 14% to persuade. restricted what schools teach and how they are able to teach it. Andrew Bridgen: From my own experience in education My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon and that of my children, I know that schools have spent (Justin Tomlinson) has given me many helpful suggestions many hours a week teaching children to learn to swim, over the past few weeks. Even though I have not been in giving them the tools to save their own lives if they fall the job long, I have had quite a few meetings with him into water. Why can they not be given two hours a year at which he has suggested various topics that he considers to help save the lives of others? to be part of that core knowledge, all of which we are considering. It is our aim, however, to reduce unnecessary Elizabeth Truss: I agree with my hon. Friend’s sentiments, prescription throughout the education system. but my point is that teachers want to do this and that we are giving them space in the curriculum to allow them Dame Joan Ruddock: I put it to the Minister that to do so. I think that will result in a very positive the teaching of life-saving skills is quite different from outcome, but I also think it is better to win hearts and the range of other activities about which she has had minds and allow freedom of judgment. representations. We are talking about learning a skill for life that could be taught in as little as two hours and Julie Hilling rose— that could save lives. There is nothing to compare to that, which is why it should be mandatory. Elizabeth Truss: I need to reach the end of my comments to provide an opportunity for my hon. Friend the Member Elizabeth Truss: As I have said, I completely agree for Newton Abbot to reply to the debate. with those sentiments. This is an important area for Today’s debate has been very helpful, and I agree students to study, but there are different and better ways completely with the sentiments expressed by hon. Members, of achieving that. but I think the best way of achieving the goal we want is to give teachers the freedom and the discretion to allow Julie Hilling: Will the Minister give way? them to follow their natural instincts. We have already seen that 86% of teachers want to achieve this, so let us Elizabeth Truss: I am sorry; I have taken quite a few allow them to get on with it. interventions, and Mr Deputy Speaker is keen to get on to the next debate. As I have said, I believe that it is best to win hearts 2.42 pm and minds. We can then ensure that the teaching of Anne Marie Morris: I will be brief. We have had an life-saving skills in our curriculum is first class. Compulsion excellent debate. Given the restricted time available, I could result in the subject being taught in a tick-box shall not name them all, but hon. Members’ contributions fashion. have been first class across the board. I have learned a Schools can choose to cover ELS skills as part of lot; some wonderful personal insights have been shared. non-statutory personal, social, health and economic The message I take from the all the contributions, education, which we have already talked about. At primary however, is that the mood of the House—despite what level, PSHE provides for pupils to be taught about the Minister has said—is that this issue needs to be basic emergency procedures and where to get help, and made compulsory. What gets measured gets done. If we at secondary schools they can develop the skills to think that we can achieve this without some element of cope with emergency situations that require basic first compulsion, I am afraid that is little more than hope. It aid procedures, including, at key stage 4, resuscitation is not borne out by 10 years’ experience of trying, trying techniques. and trying again. In this afternoon’s debate, I was struck by the fact I thank all hon. Members for their contributions. The that 86% of teachers are in favour of teaching life-saving Minister has the message, and I hope she will take it skills at school, but that the take-up is much lower. away and discuss what can be done across the ministerial From all the discussions I have had with the professionals portfolio. in the organisations that design life-saving courses and offer them in schools, I have found that the reason Question put and agreed to. teachers often give for not being able to take up these Resolved, good programmes is that they do not have enough That this House believes every child should leave school knowing discretion within their teaching time and their curriculum how to save a life. 795 22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 796

Industrial Policy and Manufacturing of our skilled work force in the UK, which creeps ever upwards, should be of huge concern to us all. Every company I visit tells me that the skills pipeline does not 2.43 pm work as it should. I believe we should be looking at two Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): things here. First, we should be looking at ways to I beg to move, devolve skills funding more directly to business itself, That this House has considered the matter of industrial policy and in exchange business should guarantee that they and UK manufacturing industries. will provide the high-quality apprenticeships we all I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allocating want to see. time for today’s debate. Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Does the hon. A debate on industrial policy, particularly with regard Gentleman agree that one of the biggest problems is the to manufacturing, is overdue. It is also extremely timely, careers advice offered to young people in schools from given the recent publication of Lord Heseltine’s review, the age of 12 onwards? The careers advice is normally “No stone unturned in pursuit of growth” and a number given by teachers who have only ever been teachers and of recent developments, including Ford’s announcement have no concept of industry outside school. Would it of the closure of its plants in Southampton and Dagenham, not better if we had dedicated and qualified careers and what we saw earlier in the year with the Coryton oil advisers in every secondary school in the country? refinery. It is also an opportunity to highlight some of the excellent work being undertaken by the all-party Jonathan Reynolds: The hon. Gentleman makes some associate manufacturing group, of which I am an officer, good points. Careers advice is variable. As I understand along with the hon. Members for Warwick and Leamington it, we are moving away from face-to-face interactions (Chris White) and for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle), my and more towards website-based and telephone-based hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) careers advice services. Whether that will have the effect and several others. I know they will all make contributions we would want is probably a matter of concern to us all. today. We need to make apprenticeships work for the long I believe that the UK has an incredibly important term. I know Government Members are always well manufacturing sector—one that has huge potential, but armed with statistics on new apprenticeships, but I one that needs a successful industrial strategy that would say to the Minister that there is a quantity versus would contain a number of elements and could carry quality debate to be addressed here, and an issue to do widespread support across this House. One factor common with how many apprenticeships are effectively developing to countries that have successful industrial polices is the skills of our next generation. This is an area where that the fundamentals of the strategies are widely shared. more needs to happen. Businesses can invest for the long term, knowing that the rug will not be pulled from under them. Lord Heseltine When I visit manufacturing businesses in my constituency, makes that point on page 8 of his report, when he asks I am always struck by just how many skilled people for the “maximum political consensus possible”. I would started off at British Aerospace. Whether we meant it like the work of the all-party group, as well debates or not, it seems to me that in the past British Aerospace such as this, to become the basis of precisely that. acted to all intents and purposes as an active industrial intervention, but with that role diminishing we do not Let me say at the outset what a debate about industrial have anything that really fills the gap. policy is not. It is not misty-eyed romanticism for a return to the 1970s. This is forward looking, not backward As for investment, I am sure that nearly every Member looking. I believe there is a case for a modern industrial in the Chamber could report the same conversation strategy that allows for our manufacturing sector to be with local businesses about the banks’ lack of interest in a driver of prosperity for many years ahead. When what they do. Businesses say that funding halved overnight people from across the political spectrum, such as Lord during the financial crisis, but also that it was never that Mandelson and Lord Heseltine, seem to be coming to a good beforehand. It seems that, as banks nationalised consensus behind this, too, there definitely appears to their business operations and their heads were turned be some momentum building for it. by sectors of the economy that may have been more lucrative in the short term, they were no longer interested One part of Lord Heseltine’s report jumped out at in the steady success of their manufacturing clients. me—not the lovely picture of Manchester town hall on the back cover, welcome though that is in any Government We must find a way of securing for our manufacturing report, but paragraph 10 on page 5, where Lord Heseltine businesses the investment that they need. It seems to me says: that there is a growing consensus on the need for a “Whether we look at the well established mature economies British investment bank, whether it is modelled on such as the United States or the new thrusters of the BRICs, there Germany’s KfW or on France’s Financial Stability Institute, is one clear message we overlook at our peril: the public and and I am attracted by the idea of a regional or sectoral private sectors are interdependent. Only by working together and structure. The proposed green investment bank could learning to understand each others’ strengths and capabilities will form part of a wider strategic investment bank, with a we succeed.” remit to generate long-term returns based on investment I firmly agree, and I want to mention a number of areas in infrastructure and businesses across strategic sectors. where our industrial strategy should reflect that—in When it comes to procurement, I could simply use skills, investment, procurement and the image of the word Bombardier, but there is plainly a view throughout manufacturing as well employer-employee relations. industry that the United Kingdom’s current attitude to The battle to attract and retain a skilled work force is procurement represents a wasted opportunity for British a constant issue for industry. All major economies face business. Let me make it clear that I do not endorse it, and there is no magic bullet. However, the age profile protectionism. Some of the local firms in my constituency 797 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 798

[Jonathan Reynolds] made it into the final proposals. Unite also sent its reps at Kerry Foods to “change at work” courses which have been extremely successful in the export markets, would help them to understand the company’s objectives particularly the aerospace businesses, and I think that and deliver the agreement of the work force to the new talk of protectionism at home fails to recognise their system. I should add that the company pays for a achievements. A company delivering a contract here in full-time convenor at the site through facility time, in the UK does not have to be British, but it should be line with a great deal of best practice. possible to consider how we might be able to make I gave that example in order to demonstrate that procurement policy work for the UK economy in an trade unions are not in themselves anti-competitive, intelligent way while still honouring our commitments and do not constitute a blockage to our economic to the single European market. prosperity. Given the right approach, they can make a I was recently made aware of the problems of Manganese very significant contribution to British industry. They Bronze in Coventry, which could lead to the disappearance should not be demonised. The Ford work forces in of iconic British cabs from the streets of London. The Dagenham and Southampton were given very little Mayor’s clean air strategy means that as many as 2,000 cabs notification of the recent announcement, let alone a may have to be replaced in December this year. With chance to serve as part of a solution to the problem. Manganese Bronze in administration, the market is That was a missed opportunity. now wide open for Mercedes vehicles manufactured in Germany. Surely there could have been a better way. Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): Another problem is the image of manufacturing. It is the trade union involvement with Jaguar Land Modern manufacturing is clean and safe, but that does Rover that has done so much to secure investment in the not seem to be widely understood. In fact, at a recent west midlands in new models and the new i54 development event held by the all-party group in Rochdale, some and, to an extent, the new Vauxhall Motors development businesses reported struggling to convey the message at Ellesmere Port. Perhaps they could serve as a model that it was also well paid. I did not consider the problem for industrial communication for the purpose of promoting to be particularly significant until I listened to the investment. evidence that industry leaders gave to the group. If we are to try to increase the share of the economy that Jonathan Reynolds: Those are powerful and timely manufacturing represents, we will need to tackle that. I examples, which illustrate the positive role that trade am not thinking of short-term rebranding or anything unions can play in an industrial strategy. that smacks of a gimmick; I am thinking of a long-term There are many other issues with which I could deal if campaign—similar to that requested by the hon. Member I had time, including our relationship with Europe and for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle)—to get the message the devolution of power and spending from Whitehall across to schools and make them understand what in the UK. I hope that other Members will refer to those. modern British industry is really like. Let me end by saying how pleased I am that we are Finally, I want to say something about with employer- having this debate. I hope that it constitutes the beginning employee relations and employment law in the UK. I rather than the end of a conversation in the House have deliberately left that subject until the end of my about the future successful operation of the country’s speech, because I suspect that it is the one on which industrial policy. there will be the least consensus. Let me explain my view by giving an example from my constituency. 2.54 pm Kerry Foods, in Hyde, is the largest private sector employer in Tameside. It makes, among other things, Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): May Richmond and Walls sausages. Food manufacturing, I say how delighted I am to follow the hon. Member for incidentally, is a much undervalued part of British Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) in this important industry. A few years ago, Kerry needed to adopt the debate? I must also thank the Backbench Business principles of lean manufacturing. It needed to be able Committee for scheduling time for it. As co-chair of the to scale its production up and down much more quickly all-party parliamentary group on manufacturing, along in order to remain competitive, and it therefore needed with the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), to consider moving from a five-days-a-week to a seven- one of the most consistent messages I hear is that the days-a-week working pattern. That had big implications UK needs to have a comprehensive industrial policy for the work force, who were strongly unionised, so setting out the key economic objectives and the policies Kerry decided to work with them and with Unite, the we need to achieve them. We need, as a country, to get recognised trade union, to deliver it. In effect, Kerry back on a more sustainable path to growth, which told the union what it needed, and the union asked the means seeking to balance our books—specifically, by work force to design a shift system that worked for reducing our trade deficit—so that Britain can be more them. resilient against future shocks and thrives in a more The staff knew that the company’s bottom line was competitive world. Any industrial policy needs to consider staying profitable, and the company knew that there the full range of the UK’s economic strengths, from had to be something in it for the staff. They agreed on financial services to creative industries and renewable the new shift system and a 3.5% wage rise for two energy. However, the most effective way of achieving successive years, dropping to 2.5% in the third year. a more sustainable growth trajectory is to boost That is more than most of our constituents are getting manufacturing and our industrial capacity. at the moment. My constituents who work for the company have told me that they felt that the consultation Gordon Birtwistle: May I advise my hon. Friend that process had been extremely sincere, inclusive and open in 1997 manufacturing was responsible for 22% of our to recommendations, and that input from the union had GDP and we had a £4.4 billion surplus on the balance 799 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 800 of payments, whereas by 2008 that had reduced to 12% so favoured by my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak and we had a £42.6 billion deficit on the balance of (Andrew Bingham) can much more ably be financed by payments? Does that not show that manufacturing and local banks. exports are vital to this country? Chris White: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Chris White: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention It is fortuitous, and something I did not realise until he and I note the figures he uses. One target the Minister mentioned it, that a similar debate was held this time might like to consider in an industrial strategy is about last year. I hope we have made more progress and that 15% by 2015—that works in so many ways. that will continue. One issue on which we have made We cannot afford merely to dismiss a large part of progress is the business bank concept, about which our global economy. Emerging markets are focusing on I know that he spoke in that debate. production and industry already, but they will not focus on those things for ever. Soon they will seek to compete Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I welcome the with the developing economies in highly lucrative services, hon. Gentleman’s remarks, many of which I agree with. as well as in research and development. Where will the May I point out to him that there is something we could UK go then? We need to compete in manufacturing, as do right now about industrial strategy? A year ago, we well as in services and the creative economy, if we are to were bemoaning the fact that the large energy companies succeed in the years ahead. The narrower our economy did not have the market certainty to invest in large becomes, the more unstable it will be. We need a broad- infrastructure, which would have had a ripple effect on based economic strategy, and manufacturing can and all the smaller suppliers across the UK. Three weeks must play a crucial role in delivering that. ago, seven of the largest worldwide energy companies have written to the Chancellor to say that they still do Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): Does my hon. not have certainty. Will he urge the Government, as I Friend agree that we must not forget the very small do, to put that certainty in place? There will be a ripple manufacturing companies in my constituency and effect affecting tens of thousands of jobs in this country elsewhere? This is not all about big factories; it is also once we know that we are heading to a decarbonised about small niche manufacturers producing specialist future. goods in this country. Chris White: All I will say is that energy and how we Chris White: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. deliver on an energy strategy must be part of any industrial As someone who worked for MG Rover, I had a great policy. experience of the supply chain and some of the smaller One of the most pressing concerns for manufacturing businesses that supported it. They have a great part to is access to finance. At meetings of the all-party group play in our economic growth, certainly in terms of new and with constituents, bank lending is a theme we jobs in this sector. return to time and time again. We must consider closely It seems clear from the statements that the Government how we will reform our banking system for the benefit have already made that they understand and appreciate of our manufacturers, which must be a key part of our the important role that manufacturing can play in industrial policy. supporting the UK economy. But I hope that the Minister Skills are another area that the Government must will see these words turned into action, and I believe consider and I welcome the work that has already been that means beginning the process of developing a formal done, particularly on apprenticeships. They are giving UK industrial strategy for the next 10 years, at the very more young people the chance to learn skills in some of least. Countries such as Germany and Japan, where our excellent educational facilities—not least Warwickshire industrial policy is at the very heart of government, can college in my constituency. We need to do more to perhaps operate without such a formal process. However, strengthen the whole curriculum, however, so that it I believe that the UK would benefit from it, not only supports our economy, particularly by supporting science, through the consultation, debate and consensus building technology, engineering and maths—the STEM subjects that would be necessary in the formulation of such a —at primary and secondary schools. We also need to document, but from having a document against which look at apprenticeships so that we have more of the civil servants and politicians can be held accountable higher level apprenticeships our country needs to compete through regular reviews. with other rapidly upskilling economies. Parliament should be at the centre of the development of this industrial policy. We need a policy that can last Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): The hon. beyond the lifetime of one Government, which means Gentleman is talking about the importance of education ensuring that we have policies that all parties support or and training. Is he not concerned that every year we broadly favour, so that we create the policy stability have to import tens of thousands of qualified engineers necessary for businesses to invest in the UK. from abroad because we cannot produce enough through our own educational system even for our diminished Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): It is a year since we manufacturing sector? last debated manufacturing, on a Thursday late in November 2011. Does my hon. Friend agree that there Chris White: Yes, I share that concern. It is incumbent is some evidence that actual change has taken place, on the House and on partners with an interest in particularly on local banking? That is now that much manufacturing and industry to spread the news and easier because of the Financial Services Bill, which we create a greater awareness of jobs in industry. It is a passed on 23 April. It means that the smaller businesses matter of attracting people to those jobs, and our 801 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 802

[Chris White] Huw Irranca-Davies: Will my hon. Friend give way? education system has a great part to play in that. That Mr Bailey: I will, but briefly, because my hon. Friend brings us back to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andrew Sawford) is going to the Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle). make his maiden speech. The Government have also rightly focused on infrastructure, on which the UK needs to improve, and Huw Irranca-Davies: My hon. Friend is right that a comprehensive industrial policy would seek to address Government decisions shape industrial strategy. I hope that problem. A modern industrial policy must work to he might have some thoughts on where we go on carbon increase investment, by providing the right incentives capture and storage as part of the strategy. It was with and ensuring that the allowances and tax breaks make great regret that we found out this week that there is the UK one of the most attractive places in the world to uncertainty over future funding and a drawing down of do business. European funds because the Treasury was unable to Of course, an industrial policy should also consider provide guaranteed funding. Does he hope that CCS will other areas such as research and development, energy, be part of the industrial strategy in phase 2, which will procurement and export support, but I believe that the come up next spring? most crucial thing is that we should act swiftly to work on building a new industrial policy. Sector strategies are Mr Bailey: My hon. Friend tempts me with an issue useful, but the main obstacles to UK manufacturing are that is worthy of a separate debate, but broadly I agree, at a national level. and I will make some allusions to the green economy later. Kelvin Hopkins: Will the hon. Gentleman give way The problem is basically that although the Minister again? outlines the impact of different Government policies on the economy, the Department, in its delivery in those Chris White: If I may, I will continue. different areas, does not necessarily seem to be signed A strong manufacturing ecosystem cannot depend up to the same economic and industrial priorities. For on a few favoured industries but must see the whole of a start, on the fiscal strategy, our ability to eliminate industry succeed. We have an historic opportunity over the deficit depends crucially on our ability to generate the next few years to develop consensus on a policy that investment in economic growth, yet at the same time the our country desperately needs, working across political Chancellor’s strategy has effectively squeezed consumer boundaries with business, trade unions and policy experts. spending and failed to recognise that in many areas I hope the Government will take the opportunity to do public spending and private engagement with it are that, enabling manufacturing to be the engine of the crucial to economic performance. That, coupled with UK economy once again and putting our country back various apocalyptic utterances about the state of the on the path of sustainable and balanced long-term British economy, has generated a feeling of insecurity growth. and uncertainty that has had a knock-on effect on consumers’ confidence to spend money and the willingness of businesses to invest. I hear that many businesses are 3.4 pm currently sitting on piles of cash, but they will not invest Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): it because they fear that the investment would not pay It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Warwick off. Similarly, with such uncertainty, banks are less and Leamington (Chris White) and my hon. Friend the likely to lend because they obviously sense a higher risk Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds), in doing so than they would if there was greater confidence who are members of the all-party group on manufacturing. in the economy. I think it is indicative of the consensus that is emerging Also, the Government’s tax policies have concentrated on industrial policy that I heard little that I disagree on reducing corporation tax. All the messages I get with. from manufacturing—I know that the hon. Member for I welcome the debate and the Government’s publication Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) has strong views on this— of an industrial strategy. Indeed, the Department for indicate that money to generate investment would be Business, Innovation and Skills has published any number much better focused on research and development and of strategies so far, and I would find it difficult to capital allowances than on corporation tax. Much more disagree with any of the major points in them. The needs to be done to assess the relative impact of reductions problem is not so much with the industrial strategy— in corporation tax, rather than investment in R and D I think that a consensus on that is emerging on the Back and capital allowances, and where future Government Benches—as with the priorities in the culture of the policy on that should go. Given the number of foreign Government, which is not necessarily aligned with the businesses that have invested in this country and seem Department’s priorities and the strategies. to have paid very little corporation tax, I wonder how I could not help but notice the comments made by relevant the reduction in corporation tax set out in the the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills Chancellor’s first Budget was in attracting foreign in September: investment. I need only repeat the comments the chair of my local enterprise partnership made this week: he “The Government shapes the British economy with its decisions said improving capital allowances would be a quicker every day. It makes many decisions about skills and universities, on research, on technologies, and on infrastructure. Through and more effective step than creating a business bank. I what it buys, and how it goes about buying it, the regulations that do not decry the long-term significance of a business exist, the markets it oversees, and tax policy. All of these send bank, but right now we need some shorter-term policies messages to the economy.” that can have a more immediate impact. 803 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 804

Guy Opperman: One such short-term policy that It has been a mistake in this country that for the past would have an impact is the liberalisation of small local 40 years there has been an over-reliance on financial community banking, as that would mean there would services as the salvation of our prosperity. The bust of be lending directly to small and medium-sized businesses, 2008 has blown that apart and revealed that there is a which is what the hon. Gentleman would like. This pressing need for the United Kingdom to have a much Government are doing that, but the Opposition voted more diversified economy. As a former international against it. Can he explain why? banker, I like to tell people that I am now going straight—I am a politician. For some curious reason, they think Mr Bailey: The hon. Gentleman tempts me to address that is rather funny. a much bigger debate about the appropriate ways of The point has been made about the decline in financing industry, but I am not going to do that. I have manufacturing industry in Britain. Let us look at the been involved in local organisations providing access to figures. In the case of Germany, 20% of its output is finance for small businesses, and I know that the perception now manufacturing. It has maintained its position, and of risk is crucial. It does not matter where the money of course it is benefiting from a thoroughly depressed might come from, because if the risk is considered too exchange rate. Nevertheless, it has seen that manufacturing high any funds will only be available on very expensive can contribute, whereas as my hon. Friend the Member terms. for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) pointed out, in the On green issues, the decision on solar panels, the United Kingdom manufacturing has declined from dispute that still exists at the heart of Government on 18.4 % of our national output in 1997 to 10.8% last the future of wind power and the delays in the year. I hope that the Opposition will not constantly implementation of the green deal make for uncertainty deride those on the Government Benches for the decline in an industry that needs certainty above all else, and in manufacturing industry on our watch, as it pretty the Government must resolve that. In the submissions I well halved on theirs. I hope we can attain a consensus have received from bodies representing manufacturing on the need to do something for manufacturing. There industry, two measures have been highlighted, which is good reason why we should be confident. I think the all-party group would also call for. First, any industrial strategy must have at its heart a degree of Mr Bailey: I think I know what the hon. Gentleman certainty. That requires building a cross-party consensus means, but he has not reflected that. Manufacturing did that will outlive any Government, so that business can not halve under the previous Government. As a proportion invest for the long term. That is especially relevant for of the economy it may have done so, but it actually grew. green industries. Secondly, there must be changes in the That has been acknowledged in the Government’s policy. culture and structure of Government that will allow economic, and in particular manufacturing, priorities to be considered across Departments. That was touched Sir Gerald Howarth: It is important to make the point on in Lord Heseltine’s recent report, and it has featured that the contribution of manufacturing to output halved. prominently in submissions from organisations representing That is a figure that the public will understand as manufacturing. If we are to convince industry that indicative of what was happening. there is a future in investing in our manufacturing, there I want to be positive, because the United Kingdom has to be general confidence that the Government recognise has historic and current industrial manufacturing flair these priorities and that project economic growth must and capability. I single out just two companies—JCB, a be a key priority for any Government. brilliant private family company in Staffordshire, and Having an industrial strategy that highlights the most Dyson, the inventor of the bagless vacuum cleaner. important measures and stimulates debate will go some [Interruption.] Indeed, Hoover too, as my hon. Friend way towards achieving what we want, but I have yet to the Minister says. Formula 1 as well has been a stunning be convinced that other Departments accept the logic of success for advanced United Kingdom manufacturing, this argument. However, there is an emerging consensus as has aerospace, which I shall come to in a moment. in Parliament, especially on the Back Benches, and in I remind the House that JCB employs 10,000 people industry that the two key issues of long-term certainty worldwide, of whom 6,000 are employed in the United and having a driver within Government to prioritise Kingdom. JCB’s revenues rose last year by 37% to economic growth are crucial. That fact, allied to an £2.75 billion. Dyson sold eight out of 10 of its appliances emerging public consensus that economic growth must abroad, with revenues of £770 million and profits of be a priority, could provide the public opinion background £206 million—a serious success story. to enable any Government to drive forward this agenda. There is therefore a challenge for both the Government Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I am glad my hon. and the Opposition to have such policies in place for the Friend mentioned JCB in my county, Staffordshire. public to decide on at the next general election. That is Does he agree that one of the reasons why such companies crucial for the British economy and for the future welfare have been successful is that remaining in family hands of everybody in this country. over such a long period, they are able to take long-term investment decisions without necessarily looking to the 3.14 pm needs of quarterly reports to the market? Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for West Bromwich West Sir Gerald Howarth: My hon. Friend in my old county (Mr Bailey), for it was in 1984 that I made my maiden makes my point admirably for me. A common feature speech in the House as the newly arrived Member for of both companies that I mentioned is that they both Cannock and Burntwood on the subject of manufacturing invest heavily in research and development, which the in the west midlands, so I yield to no one in my chief executive of Dyson, Max Conze, describes as “the enthusiasm for manufacturing industry. key to success on the world stage”. 805 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 806

[Sir Gerald Howarth] In respect of defence exports, we are increasingly being required to transfer our technology as well; indeed, I want to concentrate on defence. BAE Systems and that appears to be the only way in which we will be able QinetiQ both have their headquarters in my constituency to win these contracts. In looking at the technology, it is and I make no apology for being a strong supporter of very important to understand the significance of defence Britain’s defence industry. According to Peter Rogers, research. I have QinetiQ in my constituency, but I also who was last year president of ADS—the aerospace, have Roke Manor in Hampshire, which produces fantastic defence and security trade body—the UK’s defence defence research and has 400 engineers. In 2009, BAE industry employed 110,000 people, of whom 25,000 were Systems invested £833 million in defence research. graduates and engineers, and supported a further 314,000 We have a good record, but I am afraid that the jobs. Turnover was £22 billion and export sales were previous Government do not have such a good record. just short of £10 billion—a fantastic record and a In 1990-91, at 2009-10 prices, real defence R and D fantastic success story in manufacturing industry. expenditure was £3.8 billion, but in 2009-10 that figure The United Kingdom is a world leader in both civil declined to £1.7 billion. In other words, it declined from and military aerospace—as you, Mr Deputy Speaker, 11.6% of the defence budget to 4.4% of it. As Lord Drayson know better than almost anybody in this House apart said in his 2006 document, “Defence Technology Strategy”, from myself, Sir—with Rolls-Royce in advanced aero today’s equipment is the result of yesterday’s investment engineering and propulsion and Airbus providing the in research. He also said: most advanced wing manufacturing in the world. On “Current threats emphasise that science and technology is the military front we have Typhoon, with SELEX supplying fundamental to UK military capability.” the radar and MBDA the missile systems. We have a Maintaining a vibrant defence industrial base is not a range of companies, from Rolls-Royce and BAE Systems, throwback to a 1960s socialist planning concept, as it to EADS UK, Thales, Ultra, Chemring, Cobham, and appears that some of my colleagues believe, but an Marshalls, to tiny bespoke hi-tech companies that should essential ingredient in the defence of the realm and in not be ignored given the fantastic contribution that they contributing to the export-led economic recovery that make to the cutting edge of technology. We need to the Prime Minister wants and which, as I said, he is maintain our leadership of that cutting edge, not only leading. to win wars but to enable us to compete against newly I salute my hon. Friend the Member for Mid emerging economies. Worcestershire (Peter Luff) for his sterling endeavours If I can single out one man for his contribution to to ensure that the case for supporting British technology this, it is Lord Drayson, who in 2005, when he was the was made within Government, but I fear that the right Minister with responsibility for defence procurement, balance has not been struck. People need to understand produced a fantastic paper called “Defence Industrial the consequences of simply buying abroad. Initially we Strategy” in which he said: might get a good price and the kit that we want, but “Well targeted investment in R&T is a critical enabler of our then next time we are told, “The price has gone up, so national defence capability; it strengthens innovation in our defence I’m sorry but you can’t have the same capability.” We industry, produces more capable equipment for our Armed Forces then find ourselves on a very slippery slope where we and underpins our ability to operate with high technology allies cease to be major players in the world and cease to be like the US or France”. able to command our own operational sovereignty. We I could not put it better myself. are facing that issue with the joint strike fighter. There is ongoing argument over our access to the technology. I Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): I agree that the defence know that you, Mr Deputy Speaker, know a great deal industry is an important part of the manufacturing about that. It is imperative that, as equity partners in base of our country. Will my hon. Friend contrast the the joint strike fighter programme, we have that operational previous Government and this Government in terms of sovereignty. the leadership provided by the Prime Minister? Under Seeking to grow the UK’s defence industrial base Labour, QinetiQ, which now headquarters in his must not be an excuse for the military to over-specify its constituency, closed down just outside my constituency requirements or for the industry to inflate its prices. with no support from the Government. Under this Competition clearly has a role to play in restraining Government, our Prime Minister went to China and such excess, as the hon. Member for Stalybridge and won a contract on behalf of the Aircraft Research Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) suggested. However, other Association, which is based in my constituency, thereby nations, including an increasing number of emerging securing jobs and securing its future. countries, are investing in military capability development and their demand for our products is likely to decline. Sir Gerald Howarth: My hon. Friend anticipates a That raises the inevitable question: from where will the point that I was going to make, so let me do so now. I United Kingdom derive its income in the future? I fully concur. I do not think that people in this country submit to the Minister that the answer has to be in really appreciate the extraordinary lead that the Prime upping our expenditure on defence research, for all the Minister has given in the promotion of defence exports. reasons that I have set out. Having been the Minister responsible for defence exports, As a former Bank of England man and adviser to my I can testify to his determination, vigour, enthusiasm right hon. Friend the Chancellor, I say to the Minister and commitment. There is every prospect that that that the position of R and D tax credits needs to be commitment will pay off, because he has seriously looked at again. QinetiQ has pointed out to me that it is re-engaged the United Kingdom with the rest of the being seriously disadvantaged by the Treasury’s proposal world in a way that the previous Prime Minister was to change R and D tax credits to make them above the wholly incapable of doing. line, which would remove the fiscal incentive for companies 807 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 808 that focus mainly on research, rather than development, of the Raunds strike of 1905, during which a party of to locate their activity in the United Kingdom. Given boot operatives marched to London to demand fair the strength of feeling around the House this evening wages. The Times reported: about the importance of our manufacturing industry, “Their arrival was awaited in Parliament by a large number of I hope that the Minister will take back to his friends in people in Parliament Square, from where a deputation of ten the Treasury the need to ensure that we incentivise proceeded into Parliament to meet with MPs. Afterwards, the industry and the Government to invest in our technology. men were admitted to the Strangers Gallery, and a slight disturbance That will be hugely important for the defence of Britain was created.” and for our defence industrial base. Although I urge no disturbance in the Strangers Gallery today, I assure the descendents of those Raunds marchers Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I remind the that I will continue their campaign for fair wages. House to observe the conventions of the maiden speech. All those years ago the War Office agreed to the demands of Raunds workers and committed to a minimum rate of pay that people could live on. Today, I urge all 3.26 pm parts of the public sector in Corby and east Andrew Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): I am very Northamptonshire, and the private sector, to consider proud to speak in the Chamber for the first time as the the case for a living wage of £7.45 an hour. Too many Member of Parliament for Corby. Locally, we know people in my constituency are being squeezed by rising the constituency as Corby and east Northamptonshire, food and fuel prices, and by other factors such as the comprising as it does both Corby town itself and the role of employment agencies in our local labour market. surrounding villages, the four towns of Raunds, Too many people are on zero-hours contracts where no Irthlingborough, Thrapston and Oundle, and many villages work is guaranteed. When they do work they are paid across east Northamptonshire. low wages with agencies taking a cut of their earnings, and sometimes workers are poorly treated. I am also I will start by paying tribute to my predecessor. concerned about the way in which some agencies have Louise Mensch served as Corby’s MP in her own unique set up offices overseas to facilitate employment in my style. She was proud to be a vocal woman MP, speaking constituency; I want them to make a much more determined up for women in public life. She played an important effort to ensure that local people are given employment role on the Select Committee on Culture, Media and opportunities. I have raised that point with my right Sport, particularly on matters concerning the role of hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, and I am the media, in which she took a great interest. She grateful that he has listened and said that he will take championed the local media, such as in her debate action. earlier this year in which she praised our excellent local newspaper, the Corby Telegraph. She was also known as In these tough economic times, many people in my an advocate of social media. As I know already, combining constituency are unable to find work at all. Independent family life with the demands of being an MP is challenging, studies show that Corby is the most difficult place in the but in my predecessor’s case there was also the matter of country to be a young unemployed person looking for an ocean between those two parts of her life. I wish her work. Corby is, and must be, a working town. It is and her family well in the future. particularly well known as a steel town. Corby provided the steel for Operation Pluto—the famous pipeline under Louise had a tough act to follow. Her immediate the ocean—which provided the fuel for allied forces predecessor, the Labour and Co-operative MP, Phil invading Normandy in world war two. My granddad Hope, served for 13 years and was well known as a very was there on D-day as a Royal Marine commando, and hard-working local MP who was concerned with his my other granddad, who worked in farming, helped to constituents. He was instrumental in the opening of a feed that Army and the country. Both would later new railway station in Corby, the opening of children’s become Corby steelworkers. centres across the area, major health service improvements Today Corby’s steel tubes can be found at the Olympic and the building of new schools. He also served with park, and seen on everything from the Wembley arch to distinction as a Minister. the millennium wheel across the river from this House. Like Phil Hope, I am a co-operator, and I am proud Tata is still a major local employer and I support its call to be a member of the Co-operative group of MPs, for a level playing field on energy prices—which it tells which this week has reached record numbers. The first me are much cheaper in continental Europe—and, crucially, ever Co-operative MP in the country was elected to for investment in infrastructure to boost demand. These represent my constituency, on its earlier boundaries, in are key issues for manufacturing industry in the UK. I 1918. The driving force behind Alf Waterson’s selection want to see more action to create jobs, such as a one-off was the blastfurnacemen’s union in Corby. Although tax on bankers’ bonuses to pay for a real jobs guarantee Northamptonshire had once been a stronghold of the for young people, and help our small firms with a Liberals, in the early 20th century, a more radical culture one-year national insurance tax break if they take on emerged from the chapels and the boot and shoe industry, extra workers. I will also work locally with businesses, in which past generations of my family were employed. councils, schools and colleges. Skills matching is a particular Local co-operatives in towns across the constituency issue, helping people to gain the skills they need for the became a vital part of the local economy, and still jobs that will be created. feature strongly today.I believe that co-operative approaches, I was struck by the experience of a local man I met such as mutual housing and new energy co-ops, can recently. He had started his working life as an apprentice play a big role in my constituency’s future. toolmaker, carrying out a high-quality apprenticeship The towns of Raunds and Irthlingborough are known and being mentored by an older toolmaker who was for their co-operative heritage, and as boot and shoe in his last few years before retirement. I want such towns. Raunds’s place in history is assured by the events experiences to be much more widely available to support 809 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 810

[Andrew Sawford] and for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle), on getting this debate under way. I declare an interest in Stalybridge our young people to develop great skills and careers in and Hyde—I spent my childhood at Hyde county grammar, the manufacturing industries—the important subject of and used to live in Dukinfield, which is in the constituency today’s debate. of the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde. My Corby is very proud of its Scottish connections and sister still lives there and works at the company the hon. has a large population of Scottish descent. The Highland Gentleman mentioned. I am also grateful to the Backbench gathering is a big event, as are the Burns suppers. Business Committee for the debate. Generations of Scots and other people coming to the We need to rebalance the economy in terms of the town have blended with Northamptonshire people to types of the businesses we have, but getting manufacturing create a distinctive, incredibly strong and proud community and industrial policy right is critical in rebalancing the that it really is a privilege to represent. There has not economy regionally. I am pleased the hon. Gentleman always been such co-operation between the Scots and said we do not want to go back to the failed policies of the English in my constituency. Today Fotheringhay is the 1970s in trying to pick company winners—he one of our many beautiful villages, but it has a more agrees with Government Members on that. Surely the gory past as the place where Mary Queen of Scots was Government’s job will be to identify sectors where we beheaded. I assure the House that today there is a more already have a world lead, such as life sciences, higher harmonious spirit and we believe that England and manufacturing and aerospace, as well as sectors of high Scotland are definitely better together. growth, such as the automotive industry. That spirit has enabled Corby to survive at times of As the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) great hardship. In the 1980s. 10,000 people were made pointed out, we need a strategy that resolves the country’s redundant at the steelworks—my own dad was one of energy needs, which will give stability for investors on them—and that experience shaped my childhood. My which to build an increased manufacturing base. We dad went to Ruskin college to study, while my mum also need a positive climate for inward investment and worked in a leather goods factory to pay the bills. My business start-up. dad, who is here today, went on to become the Member The hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) of Parliament for Kettering from 1997 to 2005, and mentioned a competitive tax regime. I congratulate the I am very proud to continue my family’s record of Government on what they have done on corporation public service. tax, which I believe is having an impact. We need a I look forward to raising other issues that matter a competitive tax regime, but we also need a regime under great deal to my constituents, such as the future of vital which tax is collected. local services, including our schools, local policing and My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and health services. I am particularly concerned about the Leamington emphasised education policy and the threat of serious cuts to Kettering general hospital. It is reforms the Government are introducing to ensure that where my own children were born, and it serves people we have properly trained and qualified workers, which across my constituency. I will do everything I can to hon. Members on both sides say we need. When we protect our hospital services. I will speak up, too, for meet local employers, they complain about their employees. our more vulnerable residents: the families affected by cuts to special needs services; those who rely on disability I agree with other hon. Members on apprenticeships. benefit who feel unfairly treated by these Atos reviews; I congratulate the Government on what they have done—we and the pensioners, who want to know that their MP is have nearly half a million new apprenticeships. A couple on their side. of weeks ago, I visited a small manufacturing factory in my constituency—it is essentially small scale, as described Thank you for the warm welcome, Mr Deputy Speaker, by my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew from the staff of the House and MPs on both sides, and Bingham). A and G Precision and Sons Ltd has only from my right hon. Friend the Opposition Chief Whip— 40 employees, but as my hon. Friend the Member for [Laughter.] I intend to work hard here in Parliament Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) will be pleased to and in my constituency for all the residents in all the know, it supplies parts to BAE Systems for the Typhoon towns and villages. I very much look forward to the fighter. Only this year, it decided two work experience honour of representing Corby and east Northamptonshire lads from the local school into full-time paid apprenticeships. in the years ahead. I see the beginning of that welcome change throughout my constituency. The other part of that—my hon. 3.35 pm Friend has just touched on it and it is one of my main Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): points—is the encouragement of R and D, so that our It is a pleasure to follow the new hon. Member for companies remain at the cutting edge in their field. Corby (Andrew Sawford). Clearly, my two Saturdays in My constituency benefits from having Lancaster Corby did not turn out too well. I remember the rain in university in it—one of the top 10 universities. The Thrapston. I offer him many congratulations. Obviously university has recently been made a centre of excellence he is a man of strong views, and he puts them across for cyber-security, and has the potential to generate clearly. I have known him before—briefly—in his multi-billion pound business across the world. We need professional life. He proves that he does his homework to build on that. In my constituency, ideas have been and research, and will make a great addition to the House. developed and transferred. For example, First Subsea Unfortunately for Government Members, it looks like Ltd took a design from the university and has now he will stay the course. produced an engineering mechanism to pick up pipes I congratulate the hon. Member for Stalybridge and and buoys from under the sea for the oil industry. It Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds), as well as my hon. Friends employs 45 people and has sales departments in all the the Members for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) major oil-producing parts of the world. 811 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 812

I have previously made this point, but we have missed heavy trucks. He has found that the market in developing a trick with local enterprise zones. I have never understood countries is either for brand-new Chinese trucks or why we could not give every university the potential to British Bedford ex-defence vehicles—probably the kind have their own enterprise zone. The purpose of enterprise that my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot secured zones is to encourage start-ups. Where do start-ups the contract for many years ago. He says that the start? Many of them at the high end start with universities. Chinese trucks do not last five minutes. I have no We also want enterprise zones where businesses, as they comment to make—I am not a truck expert—but he expand, eventually move off and pay their taxes like says that although they are glittering they do not survive every other business. very long. The gentleman in question, then, has found a market Sir Gerald Howarth: My hon. Friend is making an in the developing world for reconditioned heavy vehicles, important point. May I remind him that Surrey Satellite so why did he approach me? He wanted to know whether Technology, a fantastic world leader in satellite technology, I had contacts with other countries that might want to was spun out of the university of Surrey? That reinforces get involved. Having been a member of the all-party his point about the role that universities can perform in group on Kurdistan, I mentioned Kurdistan. That taught advancing high technology. me a lesson, because he came back and said, “We’re looking at Kurdistan”. Where was UK Trade & Investment? Eric Ollerenshaw: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Through contacts in the all-party group, he contacted that example. the consular staff, who were extremely helpful, and now he is on his way to selling reconditioned trucks to Kurdistan. When I make inquiries, I am told that the problem in Where was UKTI? Its role is pivotal. A small business that defining and facilitating university enterprise zones lies wants to be in the export market needs a simple lead. apparently with the Treasury. The Under-Secretary of State for Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for West Jeremy Lefroy: I welcome my hon. Friend’s comments Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), is an expert in these areas about reconditioned British vehicles, which are much- and I am not. However, I am told that the Treasury sought-after all around the world, but does he agree rules are that it has to make a calculation about the that there is another problem, as experienced by a taxes it would have received from companies that have company in my constituency? Reconditioned UK Army not yet been set up in order to make a decision about vehicles, which cannot be described anymore as military whether to allow an enterprise zone to be created. How vehicles, are banned from export to certain countries, civil servants can calculate the tax of non-existent yet similar German army vehicles are available in those companies—or new companies that have not even been places, because German companies face no such obstacles. dreamed up—I am not quite clear, but to me there is something wrong with the system. Eric Ollerenshaw: My hon. Friend clearly demonstrates Our universities have pushed forward the science his point about reconditioned vehicles. I do not want to park idea—Cambridge is a notable example—and it is prolong this debate, but clearly there is a market. Small being pursued by Lancaster university to enable graduates businesses at—I would say “the coal face”, but we do with skills and ideas to stay in the local area. To not have one anymore—the end of manufacturing do underline my theme, we have to use this policy to not have time to make the phone calls and make the rebalance the contribution to growth that the regions contacts. They need support. For that reason, I welcome make. The council, under general powers of competence, some of the changes to UKTI. In particular, I welcome has the power to vary business rates. The concept its approach to Members about getting these meetings suggested by the university, the council and myself was going in their particular areas. That will, I hope, provide to have an enterprise zone-lite. The local council could the contacts, so that no longer do I have to be called in define the area of the science park and lower business to make the contacts myself. As I learnt, we should not rates. The problem then—going back to the Treasury assume that these small businesses are not looking at rules—is that the local council would then have to what is available on the global market. All they want is calculate the difference between the full business rate the assistance to get into that global market, and obviously and an estimate of what those companies, some of we should do everything we can to address our concerns which might not have even been set up, might have to about manufacturing. pay. That seems to defeat the whole object, but watch I supported the abolition of regional development this space. We are still trying to pursue where we can go agencies, although I should declare an interest, as a past with this. It is key that policy is not only about what member of the London Development Agency—why Government can do—I will say a little bit more about London needed an RDA I never understood, even that—but what local councils and local authorities can though I sat on the board. I have, however, been a great do, on their own volition, with the new powers that the supporter of local enterprise partnerships, and I take Government are giving them. That policy, based around Lord Heseltine’s point about giving them greater support. universities, is the key to top-level manufacturing and to I support LEPs because areas such as Lancaster and growing the economy of the north and, in particular, Fleetwood—at the north end of Lancashire—and my constituency. surrounding constituencies, are dominated by Manchester Hon. Members have mentioned exports. Lots of and Liverpool. So despite serious concerns about the companies in my constituency export. I have mentioned proposal for city regions and the dominance of those before a company in Fleetwood that exports 50 tonnes areas, which in my constituency resulted in little help of whelks to Korea. Only the other week, I was called from the RDA, I hope that we will get some help from by someone from another company in Fleetwood. I do the LEP. not know if this counts as manufacturing, but the gentleman there reconditions and patches up end-of-life Several hon. Members rose— 813 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 814

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. In industry is accurate country-of-origin marking and an order to accommodate everybody who wants to take end to bogus back-stamping. If something says “Made part in this debate there will be a seven-minute limit on in England”, it should be made in England. Other speeches. countries in Europe want that in the ceramics industry, but the UK has always stood in the way. Does my hon. 3.49 pm Friend agree that it is time we had a more open mind to such measures to ensure accurate consumer information, Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): May I first counter counterfeiting and give our industries a fighting congratulate my new hon. Friend the Member for Corby chance? (Andrew Sawford) on his absolutely splendid maiden speech? I have some connection with him in a sense, Kelvin Hopkins: I absolutely agree with my hon. because I come from the east midlands, my grandfather Friend. Indeed, I have a wonderful set of Wedgwood worked in the boot and shoe industry, and at this china, which we use on special occasions, that no doubt moment I am wearing a pair of English leather shoes comes from his constituency. that were probably made in his constituency—and splendid shoes they are, too. It really was an excellent speech, Then we had the 1990 to 1992 exchange rate mechanism and I am pleased that my hon. Friend’s father is here to disaster—again, an attempt to pinion our currency, in hear it, because he was a very good personal friend and essence against the Deutschmark. We recovered from comrade in this place. I am delighted that my hon. that after we devalued substantially—golden Wednesday— Friend is following in his father’s footsteps and I welcome and the economy started to strengthen again. Indeed, if him to the House of Commons. that economic strengthening had continued for three or four years longer, Labour might not have won the 1997 I want to mention Bedford trucks as well, because election, because we won on the basis of the terrible the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric mistake made by the Conservative Government by going Ollerenshaw) mentioned them. They were made just into the ERM. Those are key factors—the key factor, I outside my constituency in Dunstable and are all over think—in our economic weakness. But Germany kept Pakistan—thousands of them can be seen there today. its Deutschmark at low parity for a prolonged period, Many people think it was a great mistake to stop and was allowed to do so because West Germany had to manufacturing the basic truck, which is so rugged and be, inevitably, the showcase for western capitalism against can work in any conditions—and no doubt is infinitely the east, and everything was done to ensure that Germany superior to the Chinese competition. succeeded. It was permitted; it was allowed by the rest I want to talk about Britain’s experience of of the western world to keep its currency low as a manufacturing. Britain has suffered from savage necessary condition for economic success. Other factors, deindustrialisation, brought about by utterly misguided of course, were used to ensure that the Germans were economic policies enacted over a long period. We have successful, including a very strong interventionist industrial had many figures quoted to us today. We only have to policy, which we forgot and left behind when we abandoned, look at, say, the comparable 2006 figures from Germany for example, the National Economic Development Council, and Britain, to see that manufacturing comprised abolished by the Tory Government. 12.4% of our economy in Britain and 23.2% of Germany’s economy—almost twice as much. Germany is indeed the Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I am economic powerhouse of Europe, and one can see why. very interested in the hon. Gentleman’s remarks about During the period 2000 to 2010, the UK share of world Germany.Would he join me in congratulating the Germans trade fell by 28%, whereas Germany’s fell by a mere 3%. on the important supply side reforms that they have Why are our countries so different? Governments in made in recent years, to liberalise their economy and to Britain have made persistent attempts to sustain an make it the exporting success that it clearly is? Is that overvalued exchange rate. This goes right back to even not a lesson for the United Kingdom? the 1931 crisis, which sadly destroyed the Labour Government, because they did not realise that they Kelvin Hopkins: If the hon. Gentleman thinks that we could come off the gold standard and devalue, which is can recover by taking supply side measures, he is gravely what they should have done and what happened mistaken. It is the macro-economic measures that the immediately after they lost office. Germans took that were the basis for their success. Then we had the 1949 devaluation—very sensible—and Supply side measures can no doubt help, but having a in 1967, again after resisting devaluation for a long low parity for the currency and then ensuring that time, we eventually devalued, following which the economy investment goes into manufacturing above all was the of course bounced a bit. But then in 1979 we had the key to German success. The euro, of course, is an Thatcher Government, who immediately introduced policies invention, essentially to pinion the Deutschmark within that saw a massive appreciation of the pound. In two the euro at a relatively low parity compared with the years we saw a fifth of manufacturing industry disappear countries that Germany exports to. If those countries and unemployment rise to 3 million, simply because of outside Germany but inside the eurozone were permitted the massive appreciation of the pound and the collapse to recreate their own currencies and devalue, they would in demand for manufacturing. Between ’82 and ’88, in not be able to buy quite so many BMWs and Mercedes the Nigel Lawson period, we saw a pretty savage as they do at the moment, and that would affect Germany. depreciation of the pound—by some 35% from peak to One of the reasons Germany is so keen to keep the trough—and a great recovery because of that depreciation. eurozone going is simply that Germans know very well that if the eurozone was disaggregated, or collapsed, Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): One of depending on how one chooses to describe it, the the industries hardest hit has been ceramics. One of the Deutschmark would immediately appreciate and Germany things that we have wanted for years in the ceramics would have much more serious difficulties. 815 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 816

We have had that constant problem with our exchange in the future. We have fought shy of introducing an rate. Ours has always been high, and Governments have industrial policy in the UK for many years, because we tried to keep it high. Germany’s has always been low believe that Governments should not be in the business and German Governments have made sure it stayed of picking winners. It is true that a Government should low. I have had a number of experiences, about which I not select one company over another, but we will be have written in the past, and spoken on many occasions. failing our country and future generations if we do not In 1988 I went to a meeting of the Anglo-German look ahead to see which economic sectors are likely to Foundation and raised the question of the “balance of prosper and which are likely to fade away. trade problem” with Germany. I was immediately told Suspicious as we have been about industrial policies, to shut up by a very angry representative of the then we have nevertheless had them over the years. In the German Government. I thought I was just raising midlands, in and around my constituency, I can see the something that was obvious to everyone, but he was positive results of at least three of them. Rolls-Royce very upset that I even raised the issue. In 1988 the aero-engine manufacturing was saved—perhaps fortuitously, Institute for Public Policy Research produced a pamphlet, and not as a result of a deliberate policy—by a Conservative “The German Surplus,” which raised that issue. That Government intervention in 1971 after the company too was suppressed. I tried to get extra copies; I was overreached itself with the development of the RB211 told there was none. I asked who wrote it; no one would engine. Rolls-Royce employs tens of thousands of highly- tell me. Clearly, the Europhiles inside the organisation skilled staff, contributes greatly to UK manufacturing were suppressing that document because it would damage exports—I entirely agree with the hon. Member for our relationships with the European Union, which we Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) on the need for were moving towards. rebalancing—and is one of the best-known British products Macro-economics is the core problem. We could do on earth. lots of other things as well, but the macro-economics Alstom, the largest private sector employer in my must be right. We must ensure that our exchange rate is constituency, was assisted by a French Government right, and the only way we are going to start to recover intervention in 2003. Since then, it has consolidated its industrially—in manufacturing terms—is first to have a world-leading role in developing high-voltage direct substantial depreciation and then do other things to current transmission as well as being the only remaining ensure we recover. If we do not do that, we are in for manufacturer of large transformers in the UK. It, too, a very bleak time. makes a significant contribution to the UK balance of I have with me the fine document produced by the payments. Library every month, “The Economic Indicators,” which Jaguar Land Rover is investing heavily in south I read avidly. Let us look at the trade balances—visible Staffordshire, as the hon. Member for West Bromwich trade. In 2010, Germany had a trade surplus—converted West (Mr Bailey) said earlier. My hon. Friend the by the Library into dollars, for comparison’s sake—of Member for South Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson) $204 billion, when the UK’s was $151 billion. That is and other neighbouring MPs have worked hard to the difference between countries. It should be, in many secure that investment, alongside the strong support of other ways, very similar. They have got it right; we have both Staffordshire county council and Wolverhampton got it wrong. The UK trade deficit with the EU27— city council. In recent years, the UK Government have essentially with Germany—in August, the last month made a determined effort to attract automotive investment, recorded, was £4.9 billion in one month, up from £4.4 billion and this is one of the many fruits of their and the local in July. So it is getting worse. Most of that is, of course, councils’ efforts. with the Germans. The UK trade deficit for 2011 tipped over the £100 billion mark—a staggering figure. No So industrial policy can work, but only that last one other country would be able to sustain that, and we could be said to be the result of a determined effort by must do something about it in time. the UK to establish a proper policy that is consistent, long term and based on a competitive advantage. That Only a much lower exchange rate will make it possible is happening in the automotive industry. Another industry to increase exports and drive an economic, and specifically that needs a long-term policy is energy, in regard not industrial, revival in the UK. Only then will we see only to the consumers of energy but to the manufacturers unemployment come down and living standards start of the equipment used in the industry. Such manufacturers to rise again. We must do this; it is a necessary, vital in my own constituency and many others across the condition for success, and if we do not do it, we have a country are world leaders. bleak future before us. What are the building blocks of a successful industrial 3.59 pm policy that will stand our country in good stead for the 21st century? I shall make a few suggestions. First, we Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I refer Members to need a clear understanding of what we will concentrate my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. on. The Netherlands, as so often, provides a good I congratulate the hon. Member for Corby (Andrew example, as has been set out in Lord Heseltine’s excellent Sawford) on his excellent maiden speech. I also congratulate report. The report sets out the nine top sectors in which the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan it believes the Netherlands has a competitive advantage Reynolds) and my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and on which it wishes to concentrate. They include and Leamington (Chris White) on securing this important agro-food, horticulture and water—all of which the debate. Netherlands has a lot of—as well as manufacturing and I firmly believe that the United Kingdom needs a service industries such as chemicals and logistics. The long-term industrial policy, but it must be rooted in report identifies a “golden triangle” involving links growth. There is no point in focusing on economic between businesses, research institutions such as universities, sectors that will not create jobs and wealth for the UK and the Government. 817 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 818

[Jeremy Lefroy] I urge the Government to consider his suggestion of providing more such long-term capital through the Secondly, we need to ensure that we not only make business bank. the end products but control as much of the supply In conclusion, an industrial policy is not a panacea, chain as possible. That is particularly the case in the but it is a structure that provides the inventiveness and aerospace and automotive industries, which are making entrepreneurship of the people of the United Kingdom efforts in that regard. The supply chain has been relatively the best possible chance to thrive in a competitive world. hollow in those industries until recently. It has become clear that the UK’s manufacturing base has become increasingly reliant on imported components. 4.7 pm Thirdly, we have to ensure that our education and Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): training system is more closely integrated with the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge needs of the sectors on which we are concentrating. It and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) and my parliamentary has been said in this Chamber more times than I can near neighbour the hon. Member for Warwick and remember that we face a critical shortage of engineers. Leamington (Chris White) on securing the debate. It was That is why, this week in Stafford, we are looking into a good initiative of the all-party group on manufacturing forming a local engineering partnership between universities, to secure this debate about a year after we had the last colleges, schools and industry. Science and research are one. This is a year in which we can see ever more clearly an easy target for cuts in both public and private sector just how important manufacturing is to the country, but budgets because the results are further down the road, also how far we still have to go because of the relatively whereas the benefits of the cost reduction are felt straight little progress we have made. away. But that investment must be maintained. I welcome I do not want to interject any party political emphasis the Government’s action in protecting the science budget into anything I say. Indeed, I think that, on the whole, in cash terms in the last spending review, and I urge the debate has been remarkably clear of that. That them to do the same and more in the next one. shows one of the great advantages of having Backbench Business Committee debates. Although it is delightful Paul Farrelly: The hon. Gentleman is also a great to see the Minister and the shadow Minister in their friend of the ceramics industry in north Staffordshire. places to respond to the debate—we can take advantage Does he agree that a laissez-faire approach often translates of that—I do not think it was ever intended that they in government to a “faire rien”approach—doing nothing. would engage with each other in Dispatch Box altercations. I mentioned country-of-origin marking a few moments On these occasions, Back Benchers can speak for their ago. A measure such as that, we agreed, is not protectionist, constituencies and for the whole country without the but it would afford some support to our industry and is sort of pressures that inevitably arise on party political much needed. occasions. Having said that, as far as the industrial strategy Jeremy Lefroy: I totally agree. I have supported country- goes, I very much take to heart what my hon. Friend the of-origin marking for many years to ensure that people Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) said in his know that they are getting the best of British and not brilliant tour d’horizon of post-war economic history, some foreign substitute or import. It is vital to maintain highlighting the great advantages that Germany has the quality of our products around the world. had. I do not think, however, that we should look An industrial policy must set out quite clearly how wistfully or enviously at Germany’s position, as a period much we as a nation value research and back up warm of prolonged devaluation or low-value exchange rate words with action. Here, I mention research and will not be available to us. Looking to the future, it development capital allowances. Capital allowances are might be less important to us than it was for Germany vital for encouraging companies to invest the cash they over long periods and still is within Europe. The one have on their balance sheets—some £70 billion at the good thing is that we are outside the euro, but I do not last count—into productive plant, equipment and other think that long-term depreciation of sterling will ever capital investments. be allowed, even with a floating exchange rate such as Finally, I turn to finance. It is naïve to think that all the one we have now. good projects will attract commercial finance in the From my experience both inside and outside the UK. If that were the case, we would be the home of House, the basis for an industrial strategy comes back many more of the largest companies in the world because to the Government not only in respect of the provision the technologies were invented here. The first large of finance, but—and this is of equal importance—in respect computer was built on the work of people such as Alan of the intelligent and unobtrusive use of Government Turing, and the plasma screen was invented in Malvern purchasing. Those two things go together. What the by what is now QinetiQ but was then the Royal Signals country desperately needs—this is agreed throughout and Radar Establishment. Then there is the work on the the House—is a major infrastructure programme. However, human genome, which my hon. Friend the Member for it is proving extraordinarily difficult to get one under Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) mentioned. We should way. One of the two or three questions that I want to have more of these large companies, but we lack them ask the Minister—I am sure that he will have time to because the finance was not available. deal with all of them—is this: what is the real stumbling That is why I think the Government’s business bank block? Is it a lack of confidence outside, or is it a lack of proposal is a good start, but it needs to be the source of Government confidence in the projects? long-term patient capital. Lord Heseltine’s reminder in There is a lot of talk about a lack of confidence in the his report of the work that the Industrial and Commercial market at present—many Members have referred to Finance Corporation did after the war is welcome, and it—and there is no doubt that it exists; but, as I have 819 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 820 said many times, although the House is yet to be as campaign; indeed, I cannot conceive of its doing so, seized of it as I am, the Government are showing a lack because that is not in the nature of the civil service. It of confidence in British manufacturing, from the Treasury would be counter-productive, and in any case it would down through various other Departments. As was pointed not be allowed. As I said earlier, we must be intelligent out by the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), and unobtrusive, which implies that we must have they are afraid to invest real money on a long-term confidence in British companies. basis. Unless we can get over this fear of failure, invest One Department to which that applies particularly is in the long term, and stick with projects despite the the Department for Transport. There seems to be a difficulties, we shall not succeed. tremendous anti-British bias within that Department, In that respect, the Government’s role is vital. An which was especially noticeable in regard to the Bombardier industrial strategy comes down to this. Government project. The Department said that the decision must be finance for infrastructure is desperately needed now, for based strictly on price, fundability and the strength of economic and other reasons. What is holding it up? The the company. However, there are other factors, to which process is stuck: the Minister knows that, and the the Government’s new public purchasing policy should Government know it. It would be helpful if the House refer and which are allowed under the treaty of Rome. could be told what we can do, or what anyone can do, to May we please have some indication of when we will see get these projects under way. the policy, and some assurance that it will allow us at Some aspects of the second issue that I want to raise least as wide a margin of appreciation in assessing such were dealt with by the hon. Member for Aldershot projects as is taken by the French and, for that matter, (Sir Gerald Howarth), who, as is recognised in the the Germans? The Germans have a simple policy—German House and widely outside it, speaks with great authority is best. So they buy German and they do not have to do about high-technology industries. Several sectors are any more. The French pretty much have a policy that involved, and I want to ask the Minister about one in says, “Buy French”, but nobody ever says it. We cannot particular. The Government took a bold initiative in find examples of that being said, even in writing, but becoming a partner and stakeholder in the joint strike the policy does exist. Will the Minister let us know fighter project. What I want to know is whether we are when we will see the new public purchasing policy and being given access to the software technology that is so what we might expect to see in it? vital to the process of landing on and taking off from On the banks, what are the Government really doing British aircraft carriers. to provide finance for small companies, a matter to I understand that the problem lies with Congress which several hon. Members have referred? We know rather than with the President or the White House as that the money is there, but the cost involved is huge such. I do not think that it is to do with the political side and no real solution has yet been found by government. of things. However, I understand that there is still some Why do we not do something with the Royal Bank of reluctance in Congress. It seems that, having taken a Scotland? We could turn it into a bank for industry and risk and invested, I believe, $2 billion many years ago give a long time for its sale and the repayment of the when that was real money, we are now being denied key money. I hope that the Minister will answer my questions access to points of software interface between landing when he winds up. and taking off involving aircraft carriers that are different from those that the Americans had. Can the Minister Several hon. Members rose— assure us categorically that the problems have now been solved and that we are being given access to what we Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Four vitally need? speakers are left, and the Front Benchers have to begin at 4.35 pm. So to share the time out I am going to give Sir Gerald Howarth: Although the joint fighter aircraft each speaker five minutes. If there are interventions, the was not part of my portfolio in the Ministry of Defence, time will come off the last speaker and they will end up I believe that Lockheed Martin’s argument was that it with no time at all. was still struggling with the technology itself. However, the hon. Gentleman has made an important point. It is 4.15 pm imperative for the United Kingdom to be insistent in Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): I start by this regard. The United States is our closest ally. It has congratulating my hon. Friends the Members for Warwick looked to us for political support, which we have given, and Leamington (Chris White) and for Burnley (Gordon and it needs to return that support. Birtwistle) and the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) on securing this debate. Mr Robinson: I agree with every word that the hon. The manufacturing and industrial sectors have a vital Gentleman has said. There are always problems with part to play in developing the UK’s economy. They are those crucial software interfaces, but this was not really also very important to me, as I spent more than 20 years that sort of problem. It was made clear by members of working in the manufacturing industry. I starting out Congress, both in the Senate and in the House of working for BAE Systems at Woodford on airborne Representatives, that they were unhappy about releasing early-warning Nimrods in the 1980s. The chemical industry the key elements that we needed, for various spurious, is of particular importance to my constituency, where specious reasons. I hope that the Minister will be able to Tata and INEOS Chlor are still major employers in reassure us that the problem has been resolved. Northwich and Runcorn. What have the Romans done As I said, public purchasing is vital, and I hope that for us? They started the chemical industry in Cheshire the Minister will bring us up to date on it. We are when they discovered salt deposits in Northwich. I am looking for a new approach from the Government. I therefore very pleased that this issue has been chosen by hope that it will not amount to an overtly “buy British” the Backbench Business Committee for today’s debate. 821 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 822

[Graham Evans] I also spoke in the earlier debate on encouraging education and how to engage young people so that they I wish to address Britain’s historical relationship with think of manufacturing as a future career. I set out my manufacturing industry, where the industry sits now, concerns that part of the problem of youth unemployment and what we must do to ensure that our great tradition is that many are simply not equipped with the skills or adapts and flourishes in a changing market. Manufacturing given the aspiration to engage in the manufacturing industry has seen a steep decline since 1997. The number industry. Again, I am very pleased that the Government of jobs in manufacturing halved between 1997 and have made a long-term commitment to world-class skills. 2009. The manufacturing industry accounted for 20% It is clear that new technologies are emerging, particularly of the UK’s total economy and a gross value added of at the fantastic Sci-Tech Daresbury in my constituency. £186.6 billion in 1997. That plummeted to £139.5 billion It is clear that many factors will contribute to the by 2009, accounting for a mere 10.5% of the economy. success or failure of the manufacturing industry and I The reduction was £3.5 billion per annum in real terms. am pleased that once more we are debating this important Only since 2010 has there been an increase in the topic. The interest shown by so many colleagues on figures, but progress is limited and growth rates have both sides of the House is heartening, but we all have a been mixed this year. responsibility to ensure that “Made in Britain”is something Despite the decline, manufacturing has a vital role to that future generations can say with pride. I sincerely play in our current economy, with 46% of the value of hope that we will tackle the challenges of manufacturing all exports in 2011 accounted for by manufactured head on. goods. I represent a north-west constituency, so I am 4.20 pm acutely aware that manufacturing industry directly benefits all the regions. Some 97% of manufacturing jobs are Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) based outside London. We have been left with the (Lab): I, like others in the Chamber, congratulate my appalling legacy that under the Labour Government hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andrew Sawford) only one in 10 of the jobs created were outside London on his excellent, confident speech. I am sure that we will and the south-east. For Britain to thrive we must redress see a great deal more of him in the Chamber. that balance, and it is clear that manufacturing is part Today’s debate is about one of the most important of the answer. and neglected areas in British politics: the abandonment of industrial policy under the embrace of neo-liberal So what areas should we focus on? As some of my capitalism has, in my view, been one of the most catastrophic hon. Friends may recall, this is not the first time I have errors of the past three decades. It has been a fundamental spoken in the Chamber on the subject of manufacturing. mistake to believe that the massive switch away from The hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), manufacturing to services, particularly financial services who is no longer in his place, alluded to the debate we in the City of London, is a sustainable model for the held on 24 November last year. On that occasion, I set British economy. The last time Britain had a current out some of the ways in which I believed the Government account surplus was in 1983, 29 years ago. In the last could proactively develop and promote the industry. I 55 years, Britain has had a surplus on its traded goods am, therefore, delighted to report that several of my in only six years. By 2010, as my hon. Friend the Member suggestions have appeared, perhaps less by design than for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) noted, the deficit in chance, as part of Department for Business, Innovation traded goods had reached a staggering level of £100 billion and Skills policy. a year. The surplus on services, at £49 billion, could I made considerable reference to the Germans’ long-term cover only half of that. This year, the deficit is likely to support for manufacturing, which has given their industry reach £110 billion or £115 billion, or 7% of our GDP. real economic clout from far humbler beginnings A yawning and still increasing deficit of such magnitude after the second world war, when the country had been cannot continue for long without our foreign creditors, devastated. Germany’s recognition that manufacturing like any bank manager, calling time. The only way to was the backbone of its economy has resulted in political reverse this steady slide towards collapse is by addressing infrastructures set up to nurture industry, especially the the real causes of decline via a major and sustained mittelstand—the small and medium-sized enterprises. revitalisation of our manufacturing capacity. The need Foremost among those tools stands KfW,the state-backed for that is unimpeachable. In 1950, our share of world bank that ensures the mittelstand can access funding, trade was 25%. Today, it is 2.3%. That marks a catastrophic even when the commercial banks are unwilling to lend. decline in our position as a world leader in manufacturing In 2010, KfW financed a record ¤28 billion for SMEs. compared with just 60 years ago, which largely reflects The latest SME finance monitors show that in the UK three factors: our gross neglect of industry when other over the past year 33% of businesses that applied for a nations were fast recapitalising their manufacturing loan were rejected. If the Government do not take up base; the disastrous assumption under deregulated the mantle of supporting SMEs, we cannot expect any capitalism that leaving it all to the market would best of our industries, and especially not manufacturing, safeguard Britain’s interest; and the maintenance over to grow. most of the period of an over-high exchange rate, Hon. Members can imagine my delight when the putting the City of London’s interest above that of the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills nation’s industrial base. announced the launch of the funding for lending scheme Clearly, it will be difficult to reverse that slide into to encourage banks to invest; the enterprise capital economic weakness, but we have no alternative but to funds and enterprise finance guarantees to help early-stage focus all our efforts on doing so. The first requirement is business to access capital; the £1.2 billion business to stave off any further economic collapse by switching finance partnership; and the £2.5 billion business growth away from a self-defeating deficit-cutting strategy to a fund. public sector-driven jobs and growth strategy. That 823 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 824 should be funded by diverting a tranche of any future apprenticeships, as he still does—but the fact of the quantitative easing to direct investment in industrial matter is that the number of apprenticeships has increased development, by taxing the ultra-rich—that is, the thousand significantly over the past two and a half years. That is richest people in the UK who, according to The Sunday typified in my constituency by Gloucestershire Engineering Times rich list, have increased their wealth in the past Training, a company that has quadrupled in size through three years by no less than £155 billion—or, and this the number of apprentices it trains in its new premises, will no doubt be preferable to Government Members, which were opened earlier this year. by taking advantage of the lowest bank base rate for The first words I spoke in this House, before making 300 years by borrowing the relatively small sum of my maiden speech, were about apprenticeships, and that £150 million to secure an investable fund of £30 billion, was because they are absolutely critical to manufacturing which could certainly kick-start the economy. industries. I am talking about manufacturing industries The real medium-term challenge, of course, is the beyond purely engineering; this spreads across a wide realignment of the economy away from finance and in variety of sectors. I made my maiden speech wearing favour of manufacturing. It has been talked about a shirt that was made on the Cross in the centre of regularly but very little has happened. First, as everyone Gloucester, and every Wall’s ice cream Members eat knows, and as other Members have mentioned, there is was made in my constituency. Manufacturing is a broad a continuing shortage of skills, aggravated by a slippage activity. The fact that we have seen some 3,000 new of standards in science and technology education in apprentices start in Gloucester and more than 10,000 start schools and universities. Secondly, access to finance is in the county since May 2010 is a huge credit to the a major problem. There is clearly a gap in the market coalition Government, to my hon. Friend the Minister, for specialised banks focusing on small businesses, who has responsibility for skills, and especially to his manufacturing services and green investment which predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for South needs to be met. Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), who famously Thirdly, I believe that we have a national interest in championed apprenticeships during his time in that role. preserving industries and companies that are integral to The question today is this: what is the role of Britain’s economic survival. The disastrous consequences Government? We have heard about the many ways the of leaving Britain’s key industries and strategic companies Government can contribute positively, perhaps above uninhibitedly exposed to foreign acquisition or private all in the commitment to rebalancing the economy away equity buy-outs and asset stripping, which no other from finance, property and the public sector and towards advanced industrialised country would allow, are clearly making and growing things. The export drive that the a lesson that I hope has been learned. There are many other Prime Minister has led has been rightly congratulated things that need to be done, and we need to do them. by a number of Members. I am pleased to play a small role as the Prime Minister’s trade envoy to Indonesia, a 4.25 pm market of some 250 million people, and one where our trade figures can surely increase rapidly over the next Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): It is a great couple of years, in line with targets agreed between the privilege to contribute to the debate. I thank the three Prime Minister and the President of Indonesia, who Members who secured it for bringing the matter to the was here only two weeks ago. House’s attention and congratulate them on doing so. I have time to touch on only a few details of this important There are also important tax policies, of course, and I and broad subject. I wish to start by highlighting the pay tribute to the Government for reducing corporation fact that, although manufacturing in this country halved tax. Research and development credits are extremely over the 13 years of the previous Government, in my important to manufacturers, too. The visible encouragement county of Gloucestershire we operate at almost double given by Government is important psychologically as the country’s current economic output for manufacturing, well, and I pay tribute to the Prime Minister for visiting at 20%, which is close to that of Germany. The important the country’s largest independent spectacles manufacturer, ingredient in that success is that we grow things in the Norville, whose product I am wearing on my nose part of the county that is rural, which is most of it, today.Other initiatives should also be mentioned, including and make things in the part that is urban, which is the advanced manufacturing supply chain. The Queen predominantly the city of Gloucester and other leading Elizabeth engineering prize is an interesting example of towns, including Stroud—I know that my hon. Friend how we can help champion innovation. the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) will follow The Government have a significant opportunity to me shortly. rebalance the economy by bringing UK manufacturing The key to growing and making things is a belief that back home. Companies that went overseas for cheap they are important productive activities that will generate labour or relaxed environmental laws have often found jobs for our communities and wealth for the nation. that their new location is not as cheap as they had Members are right that this debate should not be partisan, imagined. I strongly echo the statement of the chairman but it is unfortunately true to say that almost 6,000 jobs of John Lewis, who said he saw an opportunity for a in the business sectors were lost in my constituency over resurgence of products that are made in Britain. We the period of the previous Government, which is tragic. want to see more of those products. Many were lost in engineering, a sector in which Gloucester has for years led the country, most spectacularly, of 4.30 pm course, with the introduction of the world’s first jet Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): It is a pleasure to engine. speak in this debate, and to follow my hon. Friend the During that period, apprenticeships all but disappeared. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham), not least There were champions on the other side of the House—the because he is absolutely right about the importance hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) believed in of manufacturing in Gloucestershire. One in every 825 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 826

[Neil Carmichael] I finish with an important appeal. We should not forget the value of our technology. Recognising the five jobs in my constituency is in manufacturing and added value in our product is important. We must think engineering, so, unsurprisingly, I am constantly promoting forward, not backwards. We should not be manufacturing manufacturing in Stroud. what we manufactured before. We should manufacture I also pleased to follow the hon. Member for Corby products that are needed now and will be needed in the (Andrew Sawford), too. I was struck to learn of his future. That is where the technology matters. connection with Ruskin college, because Jim Callaghan used that institution as a launch pad for a great debate 4.35 pm on education when he was Prime Minister, and rightly Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): This has been an so, as we were concerned about the performance of our important, passionate and, dare I say it, industrious schools and colleges then, as we are still. debate. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for As Lord Heseltine notes in his report, we have a choosing the topic, which is very much in the long-term productivity gap. It takes us 10 hours to do the same economic interests of our country and I particularly thing it would take an American about eight hours to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and do. We must address that gap, and the Government are Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) and the hon. Member for therefore right to focus on radical reforms of education, Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) for the manner on STEM subjects—science, technology, engineering in which they advanced their arguments. I look forward and maths—and on making sure our colleges are up to to hearing the hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon speed in responding to the needs of business. Birtwistle). As the Prime Minister has said, all Governments— I pay tribute to the excellent maiden speech that we including all Government Departments—need to think heard today from my hon. Friend the Member for Corby about economic growth. To reiterate Lord Heseltine’s (Andrew Sawford), as one by-election victor to another. point, we need a grand strategy to concentrate the mind I have known him for a very long time and he has on the needs of our industry and our businesses, in always been passionate about manufacturing, industry order to make sure we get that growth. and his local area. He was extremely gracious to his Infrastructure is crucial, and it has rightly frequently predecessor, as the whole House will have recognised. been mentioned in our debate. We are going to take He mentioned his passion for co-operatives and three years to decide whether we want a new airport, co-operation. That is a necessary value in an industrial whereas the Germans are building one in Berlin now. It strategy. Industrial policy is often simplified or dismissed may well be taking a little longer than usual, and it may as picking winners, but it is fair to say that in my hon. well be costing them a little more money than they Friend the people of Corby have definitely picked a winner. expected, but the point is that they are building one. We I will be as quick as I can, because there is an awful need to sweep away some of our planning restrictions lot to get through after such an important debate. It is and some of our reticence to make such big and bold clear from this afternoon that there is a welcome consensus decisions, because we need to make those decisions. about the need for an industrial strategy with manufacturing Let me give an example of why that is important. at its heart. We in the north-east know all about the I recently went to Leipzig in eastern Germany. I had importance of manufacturing. Both advanced and emerging visited the city as a student almost 30 years ago, when it nations are repositioning or developing their industrial was an economic wasteland. It was a disaster zone; I and manufacturing capabilities—we have just heard could see that whichever way I looked. Now in Leipzig from the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) there is a huge factory making Porsche cars. They are about Leipzig—with the aim of enhancing comparative great cars—they are so good that I cannot afford to buy advantage for their key sectors and maximising one. The factory’s supply chain is very effective and opportunities for growth. tight, and it is supported by an infrastructure that We should not blindly follow our competitors into enables that supply chain to work. I asked the managing the latest economic fashion. We cannot replicate off the director if he could produce a map of the factory’s shelf the German model, still less the Singapore model, supply chain for me, and he did so right away. It served but it is clear that in the 21st century global economy, to demonstrate the value of a good supply chain and business and Governments are working together to ensure the importance in that regard of good infrastructure. that potential is realised. We can exploit our values, our We must learn these lessons, and we must be bold enough tradition and heritage and our current sectoral strengths to take the appropriate action. to create a bespoke one nation industrial strategy, helping It seems to me that Lord Heseltine was right about all regions achieve their potential. localism, to the extent that we need to make sure that As the CBI stated only this month: local structures have the necessary capacity. I am very “Rebalancing the UK economy must consist of boosting our impressed with our local enterprise partnerships. They productive potential, which means reviving business investment are the right approach and are certainly a lot better and trade as key drivers of growth. The debate is no longer over than regional development agencies, but we have to whether the UK needs an industrial strategy, but about what form make sure that all of them are up to standard and know this should take.” what they need to do. Before we give them a huge We would all agree with that. The message from today’s bucketful of money, they must demonstrate to us that debate is clear: we need to see clear leadership on an they are capable of identifying the right firms and industrial strategy. I therefore fully applaud what Lord making sure that they understand the needs of those Heseltine said in his review when he stated: firms. That is about knowing the skills requirements, “The Government must have a clear blueprint for the future to knowing the skills capacities available and matching the support wealth creation. This approach should then be applied difference. I hope LEPs will start to do that. without exception across the whole of government.” 827 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 828

I support the TUC when it said: but they have not seen that. Will the Minister at least “If we are to move forward, government, industry and unions acknowledge this and outline his plans to do something must agree between them what a renaissance for manufacturing about it? actually means...astrongmanufacturing sector, across a variety of high skill, high value industries, is both achievable and desirable”. George Freeman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? The CBI said this month that we should “adopt a shared vision...fortheUKeconomy, with the Mr Wright: Since the hon. Gentleman is being very government reporting back regularly on how this vision is being persistent and because this is about a long-term vision, delivered”. of course I will give way. We would all agree. George Freeman: I am extremely grateful; I will be We hear warm words from this Government. They very brief. This time last year, the Prime Minister announced often talk a good game, but their actions fail to match the strategy for the life sciences, which was warmly their rhetoric, and this country’s industrial potential welcomed across industry—not least by GlaxoSmithKline, suffers as a result. So I welcome the Secretary of State’s which then announced a £500 million investment in 16 speeches on the need for an industrial strategy; I just advanced manufacturing in the north-west—and has wish he would implement one. I fully support what the been lauded internationally. Does the hon. Gentleman Prime Minister said in 2010 in his CBI conference accept that at least in that sector the Prime Minister speech—that the Government should be personally and this Government, including the Secretary “getting behind those industries where Britain already enjoys of State, have set out exactly the leadership that he is competitive advantage. All over the world governments are identifying asking for? dynamic sectors in their economy and working strategically to strengthen them”. Mr Wright: The hon. Gentleman raises an important He said something similar only this week at the 2012 point about consensus. If we are to have an industrial CBI conference: strategy, we must ensure that it has a long-term strategic “Government gets it…To have a proper industrial strategy to focus. Political and business cycles are not aligned—we get behind the growth engines of the future.” often have a four or five-year cycle while businesses, I fully agree. Yet in response to the speech the director certainly in the manufacturing industries, tend to have a general was forced to ask, “Where’s the beef?” 30-year or 40-year cycle—and it would be good to have I welcome the honest appraisal by the Secretary of as much consensus and policy certainty as possible. State in his leaked letter of February 2012 in which he I hope that this debate has demonstrated that. said that the Government do not have Manufacturers’ organisation the EEF has called for “a compelling vision of where the country is heading…and a “An industrial strategy” clear and confident message about how we will earn our living in that the future”. “needs to endure beyond the latest political fad or any one However, I remain anxious that only last month Lord political party. All our politicians need to recognise the value of Heseltine felt the need to say in his report: having a clear vision, gearing the whole of government to delivering “The message I keep hearing is that the UK does not have a that vision, and setting clear accountability arrangements.” strategy for growth and wealth creation.” I fully agree. Earlier this month, the CBI stated the position even In certain sectors, there has been a degree of continuity more bluntly than that. of policy. The previous Labour Government set up the Automotive Council UK. The current Government have George Freeman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? continued with that, and we have seen substantial investments in the automotive industry as a result. We Mr Wright: No, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive fully recognise and welcome that approach. I have said me, because I have a lot to get through. to the Minister of State, Department for Business, The CBI said that Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks “the current hands-off approach to growth is failing to provide (Michael Fallon), who is now in his place, that his the confidence necessary for businesses to compete for the biggest formation of the Aerospace Growth Partnership is very opportunities out there”. welcome, and I would like a future Labour Government Most concerning was the verdict of Sir John Parker, one to pledge to continue to provide certainty for that key of Britain’s pre-eminent industrialists as chairman of industrial sector. We have seen success in close relationships Anglo American and president of the Royal Academy between Government and business in a number of sectors; of Engineering, when he said last month: the hon. Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) “It has been two years since this Government came to power mentioned life sciences. Will the Minister say whether but it still has not set out a vision for Britain’s industrial future. the Government plan to replicate that across other key There has been no leadership from the top—and by that I mean industrial sectors such as chemicals, the construction David Cameron—which has given a signal to society that Britain industry and pharmaceuticals? values industrial activity.” There is concern about long-term policy certainty, which investors in manufacturing require. Energy policy George Freeman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? has rightly been mentioned a lot in this debate. In the summer, the CBI said in its report on maximising the Mr Wright: No. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will potential of green business that forgive me, but I am keen to make progress. “while business wants to keep up the pace, they are equally clear Business is unconvinced that the Government’s warm that the government’s current approach is missing the mark, with words have materialised into firm leadership and tangible policy uncertainty, complexity and the lack of a holistic strategy action. People want to see action and a sense of urgency, damaging investment prospects.” 829 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 830

[Mr Iain Wright] to industrial strategy. This debate has shown the passion of Members and of the Associate Parliamentary Will the Minister acknowledge that such policy reversals Manufacturing Group. are damaging to business investment, especially for manufacturing? What is he going to do to make sure Kelvin Hopkins: I agree with the Minister that there that he can put arrangements in place within Whitehall should be cross-party consensus, provided that that to minimise the policy reversals and procrastinations in consensus is on the right side. If everybody is wrong, we decision making that are damaging to our long-term will drive ourselves further into difficulty. industrial prospects? In the remaining time that I have, I will focus on two Matthew Hancock: That is a profound point about important points. The first is that the key to the the need to avoid groupthink, with which I profoundly implementation of a long-term industrial strategy must agree. be an emphasis on business policy across Government; My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and it must not reside just in the Department for Business, Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) argued that we need to Innovation and Skills. Other Departments cannot wash identify the best. He was passionate about enterprise their hands of growth. and I heard his message. He will know that I am a huge As we have heard, energy policy has profound supporter of enterprise zones. implications for our manufacturing base. The manner I enjoyed listening to the historical debate between in which the carbon floor price is implemented will have the hon. Members for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) significant repercussions on our industrial competitiveness. and for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), who are Our aviation and transport policies also have an impact continuing their debate as I speak. on our competitiveness. Local government can be a driver of economic regeneration and development. The My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Ministry of Defence should be working closely with the Howarth) asked a series of questions and brought his Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to ensure huge experience to bear, especially in relation to defence. that we have a defence industrial strategy. Of particular The defence growth partnership is a BIS-led cross- relevance to the Minister is the close link, which we have Government partnership, which the Minister of State, heard about today, between an industrial strategy, skills Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my and what is being taught in schools. I recall that the right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) made Fallon), leads. On the specific point about R and D tax an intervention on careers advice. We must see clearer credits moving to above the line, the Treasury has signs that there is proper co-ordination on business and consulted on that and is deciding on the detail. I am industry across Whitehall. What is the Minister doing also grateful to my hon. Friend for helping me with the to implement the Heseltine recommendations on creating answer on the joint strike fighter, which I will come to in better co-ordination, accountability and commitment a moment. across Whitehall on wealth creation? Everybody in the House was struck by the fluent and My second point relates to procurement. The impressive speech by the new hon. Member for Corby Government intervene in the markets by buying things (Andrew Sawford). He described passionately his every single day, and yet Government procurement does membership of the Co-operative party as well as the Labour not maximise Britain’s industrial capability or enhance party. My grandfather was part of the co-operative the UK supply chain. What else will the Minister do to movement. The hon. Gentleman will no doubt want to push for smarter procurement across Government to contact my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and help British industry, and to encourage innovation and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), who takes a lead create jobs in this country? on such issues among Government Members. We believe that there is a need for an intelligent The hon. Member for Corby advanced the argument industrial strategy. This debate has shown that our for the living wage powerfully. He spoke of the need to industrial and manufacturing sectors have huge potential ensure that domestic British people have the skills to in the 21st century, but that to flourish, they require take the jobs that are available. Although more than active co-operation. The whole House seems to have 1 million private sector jobs have been created under supported that today. I hope that the Minister will pledge this Government, we still have a huge amount of work similar support. to do. As Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills, my prime motivation is to ensure that British people have the skills and ability to do whatever it takes 4.46 pm to get the growing number of jobs available. The hon. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills Member for Corby spoke with great passion, and all (Matthew Hancock): Debates in this House are often those present in the debate will have clocked that—well, described by those who speak in them as important, but let me put it like this: the attitude he showed to the there is something important about today’s debate: on Chief Whip on the Opposition Front Bench, and his this subject, cross-party unity matters. There has been ability to ingratiate himself with her, shows that he may clear unity across all three parties that have been represented not be on the Back Benches for long. in this debate. Almost everybody stuck to that tone, An industrial policy is central to achieving the goal of until a brief period at the end. I will not push the point growth and enterprise, and there is broad consensus on about who got us into this mess and I will not ask under that from the CBI to the TUC, as well as across the which Government the number of private sector jobs House. The reason for that is simple. Any Government in the west midlands fell, because it is important, for in a mature economy has an industrial policy—as the substantive reasons, that there is a cross-party approach hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) and 831 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 832 my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) funding. The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde argued, a Government cannot choose not to have one. (Jonathan Reynolds) called for a business investment We have an industrial strategy but the question is whether bank, which is happening, and the green investment we have it by default or design. bank is already operating and making loans. My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford praised the Secondly, and close to my heart in the industrial Dutch system, from which we have much to learn. In strategy, are skills. The call went out for more employer my few weeks in this job I have recognised and warmly focus on skills, and my hon. Friend the Member for welcomed the constructive approach taken by the hon. Gloucester (Richard Graham) made a passionate case Member for West Bromwich West to chairing the Business, for apprenticeships. I strongly agree, and I urge all Innovation and Skills Committee. He argued for a Members to engage with the employer ownership pilot cross-departmental approach, and the growth committee that was published on Monday which is about looking on which I sit is an important part of that. He also ahead. For example, we know that with Crossrail, High argued for a cross-party approach, and not only do I Speed 2 and broadband, more tunnelling skills will agree with that, but I think hon. Members have required in the future. We now have a pipeline for those demonstrated such an approach today. In particular, I tunnelling skills—a pipeline for pipelines. pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s realism and ability As the hon. Member for Coventry North West discussed, to accept failures on the part of all past Governments. the third thing we need is more intelligent procurement. As he said, manufacturing halved as a percentage of This Government have a more intelligent approach to GDP, and the passionate argument about that and the procurement, and I hope it will become more intelligent history around it was also put forward by the right hon. still. Crucially, our national infrastructure plan identifies Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher). 500 projects. Some £70 billion of future contracts have Crucially, an industrial strategy looks both at and been planned and published across 13 different sectors. across sectors, and we must ensure that we allow for the We are also trying to speed up procurement. challenge of sectors that are yet to be dreamed of. Let On technology, we have protected the science budget me touch on four cross-cutting themes, as well as on and are focusing on eight key technologies. Links to sectors such as the automotive industry, life sciences universities are vital. Catapult centres will accelerate and aerospace, in which we are pushing rapidly ahead that. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot spoke with the publication of individual papers. about Surrey satellites. That example should go out throughout the country. Turning links with universities George Freeman: On the point about convergence, into business reality is critical to our future success. does the Minister agree that one of the most exciting I commend the cross-party approach. I urge people things in life sciences is the way that medical, food and to look at the fact that all three parties are coming clean environmental technologies are beginning to merge? together to promote the long-term industrial strategy I recently visited a plant in Norfolk that converts agricultural we need, which I commend to the House. waste into fuel for powering Lotuses made in Norfolk. That is a powerful illustration of convergence. 4.55 pm Matthew Hancock: Yes indeed, and across supply Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): I congratulate my chains too. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud two colleagues—my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick (Neil Carmichael) powerfully said, it is vital that we and Leamington (Chris White) and the hon. Member bring whole supply chains together when thinking about for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds)—on the sectoral approach. There is no one-size-fits-all approach. securing the debate. I also congratulate the new hon. Some sectors will do well on their own; others need a Member for Corby (Andrew Sawford) on his maiden long-term strategic partnership. My hon. Friend the speech. I remember doing mine two and half years ago. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) I hope he is as enthusiastic in two and a half years as I called for a document that brings things together in am now. It does not take long for House to kick the each sector, and that is happening. strength out of people. The right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton Huw Irranca-Davies: Briefly, and on a genuinely cross- (Mr Meacher) put the debate into perspective when he party consensual basis, will the Minister update the House said that, in the past 60 years, we have gone from being on the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member the major supplier to the world to being a minor supplier. for Corby (Andrew Sawford) about energy-intensive In 1958—nearly 60 years ago—I turned up on my first industries such as Tata Steel? Those vital employers and day as an apprentice engineer at a company in Accrington big economic generators have a massive impact on the that employed 5,000 people to produce textile machinery supply chain, but they consistently say that they do not that was sold around the world. It is no longer there, have a strategy that deals with their energy costs as well and has not been for many years. I have been involved in as everything else. manufacturing almost throughout the period he described. We can get growth going in numerous ways. The one Matthew Hancock: The Government have an energy- thing the Chancellor can do in two weeks’ time is give intensive industries approach, and an energy Bill will 100% capital allowances for investment in capital, buildings soon be published that I hope will provide some long-term and the like for the manufacturing sector. As I understand certainty. it, the major companies in this country, and companies Let me return to the four cross-cutting areas. The from abroad who wish to invest, have £70 billion stashed first is finance, and my hon. Friend the Member for in banks. One hundred per cent. capital allowances for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) spoke fluently about the just two years would boost investment and the money funding for lending scheme that lowers the cost of would be spent in the UK. 833 Industrial Policy and Manufacturing 22 NOVEMBER 2012 834

[Gordon Birtwistle] Business without Debate Another major problem is the supply chain—it is a problem in the automotive and aerospace industries. It BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE needs to be resolved. To get rid of our balance of Ordered, payments deficit, we need to increase exports by 15% and reduce imports by 15%. It does not sound like a big That, in respect of the Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill, notices of Amendments, new Clauses and new Schedules to be task to export 15% more and import 15% less. I have asked moved in Committee may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table companies whether they are able to do so. The vast before the Bill has been read a second time.—(Mark Lancaster.) majority in the aerospace industry say, “Yes, we can. We’ve got order books for 25 years ahead, but we do not have a supply chain to feed our order book, so we PETITION are having to import. We would really like to manufacture in the UK so we have our own supply chain.” We need Rohingya Community to resolve that, but we also need the staff to work in the supply chain—the young people to work in the supply chains of our top industries, such as the aerospace, 5pm automotive and chemical industries, are not coming Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) through. The supply chain gap is a major problem. (Lab): I wish to present this petition to the House, We have a major skills gap. I visited Rolls-Royce in which has nearly 1,000 signatures, and is from Mr Ali Derby only last week and asked to see its apprenticeships and residents of Coldhurst and other parts of Oldham. training programme. I was delighted to hear that it I am grateful for the opportunity to present this petition. takes on 40 extra apprentices every year not for Rolls-Royce, The petition states: but for the supply chain—companies that supply Rolls- Royce but that cannot afford to take on apprentices. The Petition of Mr Ali and residents of Coldhurst, Those small companies want high-class apprentices and Declares that the Petitioners believe that as a result of a recent to deliver the skills of the future, and Rolls-Royce takes attack on the Rohingya ethnic minority in June 2012 there is now a humanitarian crisis in Burma and that more than 90,000 them on at its own expense so that its supply chain is Rohingya have been displaced; further that the Petitioners believe secure. that since 1962 no Rohingya have been issued with birth certificates Hon. Members mentioned careers advice. I am horrified which renders them aliens to their own country and means they when I go to schools in my constituency and hear about have no citizen’s rights and that innocent civilians are being the careers advice that is given to young people. Basically, targeted because of their ethnic background; further that the it is nothing—no careers advice that is of any use is Petitioners believe that this is a modern ethnic cleansing and that it has been described as such by many independent journalists given. Some young people would be interested in going and NGOs and that the Rohingya require relief and aid. The into manufacturing, but nobody advises them what it is Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges about. It is high time that the Department for Education the Government to cease its economic ties with Burma and to looked into careers advice in schools. We need young assist in providing aid for the displaced Rohingya of the region. people who really know what manufacturing is about. And the Petitioners remain, as in duty bound, will ever pray. Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). [P001138] 835 22 NOVEMBER 2012 NHS Trust Merger (Dorset) 836

NHS Trust Merger (Dorset) out that the trust had produced a long document setting out the benefits. In order that I could respond to the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Office of Fair Trading inquiry, I thought it would be (Mark Lancaster.) do now adjourn.— helpful to see the benefits case, and I eventually received an almost totally redacted version, dated September 2012. 5.2 pm The section on the key patient benefits to cardiology starts on page 29, but almost every line on every page is Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): May I completely redacted. The same is the case with the first thank Mr Speaker for selecting this subject for this sections on acute general surgery, haematology and evening’s debate? I am delighted that my hon. Friend maternity services—indeed, the only word that is not the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) and my redacted in the latter section, which is four pages long, right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West is “maternity”. (Mr Swayne) are here. My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West has himself sent a submission to That is scarcely credible. It is farcical and makes a the Office of Fair Trading in relation to the proposed complete mockery of any public consultation or merger of the Royal Bournemouth and Christchurch involvement. The OFT has the task of trying to find out Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust with Poole Hospital from local people and third parties whether they believe NHS Foundation Trust. that patient benefits flowing from the merger will outweigh the loss of choice and competition that will inevitably This is not just an important subject for our locality. result, but the basic information needed to reach a It raises issues of principle, because this is the first time judgment is not available. That is why I am in a state of it has been proposed that two separate NHS foundation limbo. We only had 14 working days to send in our trusts merge. The OFT says that there a lot of other submissions to the OFT, so I sent in mine on the basis proposals in the pipeline. It is therefore important that of as much information as I could gather on the grapevine, the Minister has the opportunity to comment on what plus some speculation, pointing out how aggrieved I seems a bizarre procedure, certainly in relation to this felt, on behalf of my constituents, that the information matter. needed was not made available. I have to express an uncomfortable truth about tonight’s The OFT is now considering the issue and will, I am debate. I have always trusted the Royal Bournemouth told, announce its decision by 8 January 2013. I hope and Christchurch Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust as that at the end of this debate the Minister will say to me being open, transparent and honest in its dealings with that, on behalf of the Government, he will ask the me and the public at large, and my constituents appreciate Office of Fair Trading, as I have, to refer the matter to the excellent services provided at the two hospitals. the Competition Commission for a full inquiry, because However, it is fundamental to public confidence in it raises lots of issues. It also makes it difficult for the hospitals that there should be transparency and openness Office of Fair Trading if the information provided to it in dealings with the public. Indeed, the requirement for cannot be tested in public. such transparency and openness is set out in the documents on which the foundations trusts are based. The constitution That is where we are at the moment. I received that of the Royal Bournemouth and Christchurch hospital heavily redacted document, and instead of anything NHS foundation trust describes it as a “public benefit else I was then given a set of slides, which caused me to corporation”, and paragraph 6.5 states: raise a number of questions. I put them in writing to the hospital and at the end of last week, after about a “In conducting its affairs, the Trust shall have regard to the need to provide information to members and conduct its affairs in fortnight, I received replies to them. However, the letter an open and accessible way.” I received, dated 16 November, starts: As I shall demonstrate, in relation to the merger proposal, “Dear Chris quite the reverse has happened. Strictly private and confidential. Not to be disclosed without express prior written consent of both Poole Hospital NHS Foundation I also refer my hon. Friend the Minister to another Trust and the Royal Bournemouth and Christchurch Hospitals trust document, “Authorisation of the Royal Bournemouth NHS Trust”. and Christchurch Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust”. It was approved on 1 April 2005 by Monitor. Paragraph 25, I therefore cannot disclose what the document says—I headed “Information given to Parliament and to Members think I can disclose that it exists and I can tell the House of Parliament”, reads: what some of the questions I asked were, but the answers cannot be shared. One of the questions was: “In addition to any statutory requirements, the Chairman, Chief Executive or any other person giving information to Parliament “Why do services have to be reduced in the absence of a merger or to a Member of Parliament on behalf of a Trust shall ensure ‘in order to stay viable’?”, that they comply with the standards expected of Ministers of the but I am not allowed to publish the answer. I also asked: Crown with regard to openness of dealings, the giving of accurate and truthful information and the correction of any inadvertent “In the event of no merger, which services will no longer be error at the earliest opportunity. Any question submitted to the provided locally which will thereby necessitate patients having to Trust by a Member of Parliament shall be responded to by the travel further?”, Trust within the same timescale as that expected of Ministers with and so on. I asked all those questions, but the answers—if respect to Parliamentary questions.” they can be described as such—cannot be made available. In due course, Mr Deputy Speaker, you will see that the Surely that must a breach of the terms of the constitution trust seems to be totally in breach of that paragraph. to which I referred earlier. The trust has embarked on a merger proposal. Obviously, The process is far from satisfactory, but let me turn to with any such proposal, people will wonder, “What is the substance. After a considerable amount of digging the purpose of the merger? Why do we need a merger? and discussion with local people, I found out why What will be the benefits and consequences?” I found there is this conspiracy of secret dealings. The Royal 837 NHS Trust Merger (Dorset)22 NOVEMBER 2012 NHS Trust Merger (Dorset) 838

[Mr Christopher Chope] it reflects their views. That is one of the fundamental reasons why we support the principles of accountability Bournemouth and Christchurch Foundation Trust knows in this House. that it is under an obligation, under section 242 of the I hope that when the Minister responds to the debate National Health Service Act 2006, he will deal with the issue of accountability. I am “to engage and/or formally consult when considering changes to hopeful also that, in looking at the whole case, he will the way in which services are provided or the range of services have regard to the comments that he made when he they intend to provide”. responded to a debate on acute and emergency services The trust wants a service reconfiguration, but it wants on 26 October. On that occasion, our hon. Friend the to close down the options before any public discussion Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee) was arguing for nationally of it takes place. The trust effectively wants to pre-empt led service reconfiguration, but the Minister pointed discussion by using the cloak of the merger proposal. out that changes to services in Manchester and London, As a unified trust—a monolithic monopoly supplier—it which had been cited, were would then effectively be able to dictate terms to the “driven at a local level by good clinical leadership and effective Government and the local people. For example, reducing engagement of local communities.” the Royal Bournemouth hospital’s accident and emergency It is the latter part of that which is totally lacking currently service from a 24-hour, seven-days-a-week service to in Christchurch, Bournemouth and Poole. In the same one operating between 8 o’clock in the morning and debate, my hon. Friend emphasised the need for plans 10 o’clock in the evening could be presented as a fait for service change to be developed in a way that accompli, as could closing down the maternity service, which is a midwife-led service, and transferring it to “gives confidence to local communities.” Poole because Poole is desperately short of money. He also emphasised that change One of the issues behind all this is that for years the “should encourage choice and availability” Royal Bournemouth has prided itself on wanting to be and identified the danger that in the more rural parts of the hospital of choice for local people, but then Poole the country, hospital got into financial difficulties—indeed, it did “bigger and better centres will often reduce choice” not have its accounts properly accepted for 2010. It seems that the only way Poole hospital can get out of and result in people having to travel those difficulties is by merging, because then it would “long distances to receive their care.”—[Official Report, 26 October have a higher prudential borrowing limit, which would 2012; Vol. 551, c. 1271-2.] enable it to carry out improvements. However, my point The Minister also referred to the advent of clinical is this: what is the benefit for the people using the Royal commissioning groups taking over from primary care Bournemouth and Christchurch hospitals at the moment? trusts, but there has been no engagement between those There has also been an attempt to try to intimidate groups and Members of Parliament about what is being people and prevent them from participating in any proposed in Christchurch, Bournemouth and Poole. public discussion. I have had a number of discussions That is where we are at the moment. I think it is very with people involved in the governance of the hospital, sad that there has been that breakdown in communication and with other local residents. I shall not quote from all between the Members of Parliament and the trusts. The the letters that I have received, but I do have one letter whole purpose of the trusts—I was delighted when the that I thought would be worth quoting. It is from a lady Royal Bournemouth was one of the first foundation who says: trusts, established in 2005—was that they should be “I am very impressed by your investigations into the planned independent and could not be interfered with by merger, which once completed will suddenly and too late wake the Government, but would be accountable to local people. slumbering populace up. I really wonder who the NHS thinks But I am afraid that the local people, even those who they are there for—it seems only, sometimes, for themselves and are serving in positions on the board, are feeling that their accountants. And to issue our MP with heavily redacted information is bordering on Stalinism.” they are being squeezed out of the debate, being told that they must not say anything for fear of prejudicing There is a notice up now in the local hospital, saying the outcome. Surely this very important proposed merger that there is legal advice against disclosing the benefits should be the subject of a public debate, and before case, and restating that no decisions have been made we get to the stage of a merger the proposals for the regarding the reconfiguration. But the issue is not decisions; reconfiguration of services, which are obviously being it is about proposals, and it is the proposals about which actively discussed and debated by the chief executives of we should be having a discussion. If I asked my independent the two trusts, should be put before the general public foundation trust for information, I should not have to for their views. I do not think that my constituents are receive a letter back from the two foundation trusts very keen on the idea that their accident and emergency jointly. They should be looking at the matter from the unit, which they use, at the Royal Bournemouth should point of view of the interests of each of their localities, be closed after 10 o’clock at night and not reopen until rather than having a joint exercise, which is squeezing 8 o’clock in the morning. Likewise, I do not think that out the public interest. they are very keen on the idea of the maternity service The notice continues: being relocated from Bournemouth to Poole. “The benefits submitted to the OFT have had full engagement Anyone who asks questions about the merger is told with lead clinicians across both hospital trusts around how the that if it does not happen, Poole hospital will close. A new organisation could move forward”. similar threat was made to me on Monday when I went I do not quite know what full engagement means, but to the hospital. I was told that if the merger did not go obviously if there is no public declaration of what the through, Christchurch hospital would close. That is benefits are, nobody is in a position to know whether completely at odds with a letter that was sent to one of 839 NHS Trust Merger (Dorset)22 NOVEMBER 2012 NHS Trust Merger (Dorset) 840 my constituents who had expressed concern about the stroke unit opened in 2012. It is designed to improve the changes at Christchurch hospital. In that letter, the experience and outcomes of stroke patients by providing hospital stated that, because of the financial strength of specialist services, with a particular focus on the the Royal Bournemouth and Christchurch Hospitals rehabilitation of patients, which is an important part of NHS Foundation Trust, the future of Christchurch stroke care. hospital was assured. That letter was received by my constituent earlier this month, yet the chief executive Mr Chope: I am glad that the Minister cited those told me on Monday that if the merger went ahead, the examples, but are they not examples of how independent proposal for Christchurch would be abandoned and trusts can innovate and thereby create beneficial change Christchurch hospital might have to be sold. What an rather than have a monolithic monopoly? Surely we extraordinary state of affairs we are in! I look forward would not have so much innovation if all our trusts to hearing from my hon. Friend the Minister. I hope were merged into one. that he will be able to allay some of the concerns in our locality. Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend is right that trusts—in 5.21 pm their own right, or when they are merged together as they were historically over the river at Guy’s and St. Thomas’ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and at the medical school of Guy’s, King’s and St. Thomas’ (Dr Daniel Poulter): It is a pleasure to respond to the of which I am a graduate—can gain and improve the debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for quality of care available to patients without losing their Christchurch (Mr Chope) on securing it, and on being a distinctness. Services are offered on each site, but at the strong advocate for the needs of his constituents and of same time they can add to the services they provide to patients throughout his part of the world. I also pay patients in the totality. I believe my hon. Friend is right tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for New to say that these innovations have come from the Forest West (Mr Swayne) and my hon. Friend the independence and the good work of his local hospital, Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who are also but I also believe there can be distinct advantages from in the Chamber. They, too, are strong advocates for the hospitals coming together as well. The common purpose patients they represent, and I know that their constituents is making sure that good local service provision is are grateful to them for that. maintained, while services of clinical excellence are also It is right to highlight the importance of having a developed, further improving the offer to patients—not good working relationship between Members of Parliament just in those towns, but throughout the area. and their local hospital trusts. It is never desirable for I want to highlight, and not leave out, some of the any hospital to embark on local service changes of any good things happening at Poole hospital, as it would be kind without properly engaging with the local Members wrong for me, having highlighted a number of good of Parliament. In this case, we are talking about a developments at the Royal Bournemouth and Christchurch merger, rather than a service reconfiguration; there is an Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, not to mention them. important distinction between the two, which I will At Poole hospital, the standard of care for cancer come to in a moment. Nevertheless, from what my hon. patients has been rated as among the best in the country Friend the Member for Christchurch has said, it does in a national survey. The 2011-12 national cancer patient not sound as though the local hospital trust has engaged experience survey found that 94% of patients rated their with him in a way that we would all consider desirable, care as “excellent”or “very good”, giving Poole the highest and I am sure that it will consider that in its future score recorded among participating trusts. I know all relations with MPs. Members, as constituency Members, would feel very That point was strongly made when my hon. Friend proud of that hospital’s achievements. read out the heavily redacted document. There is freedom of information, and certain issues can quite rightly be I am sure that my hon. Friend welcomes this exempted from freedom of information requests under Government’s investment in the NHS, even in very difficult statute. However, to present a document bearing only economic times, as we put an extra £12.5 billion into the heading “Maternity”is not in the spirit of co-operative NHS services over the lifetime of this Parliament. I am and collaborative working with Members of Parliament sure we all agree that that is a good thing. or in the spirit of being as open and transparent as we What is the current position? Let me address some of would like. I am sure that he has already raised these my hon. Friend’s points. As to the proposals by the issues locally, but I would also like to place on record foundation trusts in Bournemouth and Poole, I appreciate my concern at what he has told the House. It is important that when any changes to local NHS services are that MPs, as strong advocates for our constituents and mooted, people can become anxious and feelings can the patients in our constituencies, should always be run high. However, I must be very clear to my hon. engaged at an early stage when decisions of this magnitude Friend that there is no formal role for Ministers or the are being made. Department of Health in approving mergers between My hon. Friend paid tribute to the dedicated front-line two foundation trusts. I fully appreciate his concern staff at the hospitals in Poole and Bournemouth. It is to ensure that there is appropriate engagement and worth highlighting that some very good things have consultation on any proposals for service changes that been happening in both trusts. At Royal Bournemouth may affect his constituents. I have already put on record and Christchurch Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, a some of my concerns about the process and engagement life-saving service that treats heart attack patients within so far, which I think we would all accept is not ideal. 60 minutes is now available 24 hours a day, seven days a week at the Royal Bournemouth hospital. It treats heart Mr Chope: I was not asking the Minister to have a attack patients from across Dorset, Hampshire and role in approving the merger or otherwise. What I asked Wiltshire. Also, a new combined acute and rehabilitation him to do, on behalf of the Government, was to say to 841 NHS Trust Merger (Dorset)22 NOVEMBER 2012 NHS Trust Merger (Dorset) 842

[Mr Chope] results, such as economies of scale and a reduction in unnecessary administrative burdens when possible. I think the Office of Fair Trading that this is an issue of sufficient that, although the process and the approach taken to significance that it should be referred to the Competition engagement with my hon. Friend and other Members Commission. of Parliament have not been ideal, some very positive elements have emerged from the discussion. Dr Poulter: If my hon. Friend will be patient with me As my hon. Friend said, stringent tests would be for a few moments, I will address that point a little later. applied to reconfiguration if it were on the table. The In acknowledging the understandable anxiety that criteria would be strong public and patient engagement, can be stoked when any discussions about hospital consistency with current and prospective need for patient services take place, it is important to highlight the fact choice, a clear clinical evidence base, and support for that, as we saw over the river at Guy’s and St. Thomas’, proposals from clinical commissioners. Clinicians should although there was some good preservation of the always lead reconfiguration challenges, but today we individual and distinct offers to the local populations of are not talking about reconfiguration; we are talking the two institutions in their own right, by coming together about a hospital merger. It is the first of its kind to be they have been better together and provided better proposed between foundation trusts in the country, and services. in that respect it is new territory for the NHS. There are distinct rules, including, as my hon. Friend said, referral One of the big problems we face in the NHS is of the case to the Office of Fair Trading. concern about putting more money into front-line care The OFT’s role in reviewing the merger will be to and about cutting back on waste and bureaucracy. establish whether there is a realistic prospect that it will result Clearly, if the administration across two trusts can be in a substantial lessening of competition. I am sure that shared, it will free up more money to be diverted and it will also consider the issues of rurality and the choice put into what we all care about—front-line patient care. of services available to patients. Should it refer the Let me put on record once again that the trusts have matter to the Competition Commission, which it has a clearly stated that this is not about the reconfiguration right to do if it has concerns, the commission’s role will of clinical services. That is quite distinct. My hon. Friend be to conduct an in-depth investigation, and to decide was quite right to mention some of the points I raised in whether the merger does indeed represent a substantial reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell lessening of competition and choice. (Dr Lee) about the important and distinct challenges Concern has been expressed about the rurality of faced in rural constituencies, and the fact that service surrounding areas, and about the fact that there are reconfiguration challenges are very different in rural long distances between hospital trusts. That may— areas where there are longer distances to travel. As I have said, however, this is not about reconfiguring 5.32 pm services, but about trusts merging and seeking what I House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order think we would consider to be potentially desirable No. 9(7)). 215WH 22 NOVEMBER 2012 Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing 216WH

debate, and if we can start, we will see how we might Westminster Hall stop as well, which might be something of a problem. I call Mrs Ellman.

Thursday 22 November 2012 1.33 pm Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): [MR HYWEL WILLIAMS in the Chair] It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Williams. I am pleased to present two Transport Committee reports for debate. Both are on aviation, Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing and although they deal with complicated matters, they [Relevant documents: Seventeenth Report of the Transport are vital to the public. The first debate is on the reform Committee, Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (ATOL) of Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing, or ATOL. Reform, HC 1798, and the Government Response, HC 557.] Mark Lazarowicz: Before my hon. Friend proceeds, 1.30 pm does she agree that, although we are discussing the first report, it is particularly important that we have a Minister Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): On a here to hear what is said about the second report? point of order, Mr Williams. Before you start proceedings, Important negotiations are going on in Europe about can I raise a couple of questions? I am not sure what we flight times, and many of us have constituents working do in the event of not everybody who indicated that in the industry who have contacted us about the matter. they wanted to speak in this debate turning up. The It would be amazing if we did not have the opportunity Select Committee on Transport has scheduled two for a Government response on this important topic. important debates for this afternoon. Does the Chair have any discretion to delay the start of proceedings to Mrs Ellman: I agree with my hon. Friend. I certainly ensure that those who want and are expected to participate wish Ministers to listen to what I have to say, and I have have the opportunity to do so? Previously, when I was a numerous questions to pose to them, but the proceedings Minister, if I had been at a debate and there was nobody have started, so I must continue. I hope that the Minister in attendance, or if someone to whom I had spoken in will arrive before I have proceeded much further. the Lobby and who had indicated that they wanted to The ATOL scheme was introduced in the 1970s, a speak was not there, I would obviously have wanted decade in which there was a dramatic increase in the to ensure that they had a chance to speak. number of people travelling abroad on package holidays. What are the rules and protocols of the House in the ATOL is a Government-backed insurance scheme that Standing Orders? We would not want anyone to miss protects holidaymakers flying abroad from the effects if the opening speech from the distinguished Chair of the travel firms go bankrupt. Holidaymakers can be reimbursed Transport Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for for the cost of holidays and repatriated where necessary. Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), ably supported by Over the past three years, 250,000 people have received the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). refunds as part of the scheme and 100,000 have been The Transport Committee has spent a lot of time on the repatriated. two reports. I know that my hon. Friend the Member Firms covered by the ATOL scheme charge each for Edinburgh, Leith and Pentland—or is it just Edinburgh passenger £2.50 to cover the cost of ATOL. However, at and Leith? the time of our inquiry, the Air Travel Trust Fund from which payments are drawn was in deficit to the tune of Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ £42 million. That deficit is now decreasing. I would be Co-op): Edinburgh North. grateful if the Minister could tell us the latest figure, as it is important to have. The deficit is falling because the Jim Fitzpatrick: My apologies. My hon. Friend the charge per passenger was recently increased from £1 to Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark £2.50, but the scheme remains controversial. Currently, Lazarowicz) clearly has something to say in the debate, only about half of holiday bookings are covered, an and it is important that everybody who wants to speak issue at the heart of ATOL reform. has the chance to listen to the opening speeches. Without an opening speech from the Transport Committee Chair The situation is complicated. Traditional package to set the context for this debate—the Opposition have holidays sold by travel agents and tour operators are a few things that we would like to say, although the covered by ATOL. Holidays sold by agents or firms reports deal comprehensively with the issues, and the defined as acting as agents for the consumer, particularly Government’s response is equally detailed—it would be online, are not. Firms selling holidays not covered by helpful if you could advise us, Mr Williams, how we the scheme have a competitive advantage, because they might proceed so that everybody who wants to participate do not have to charge for ATOL cover. However, it is can do so. not clear whether consumers are aware of that difference. There is also the problem of who pays for repatriating Hywel Williams (in the Chair): Thank you for that travellers stranded abroad by the bankruptcy of an point of order, Mr Fitzpatrick. I think we have shown a airline or agent not covered by the scheme. degree of forbearance. It puts us in a difficult position if The Government are in the process of changing we have neither a Whip nor a Minister, but I am advised ATOL. Two reforms have already been made. First, that we may proceed, and I think that we had better, “flight plus” holidays—in which a flight plus another given that we have hon. Members here who are anxious part of the holiday, such as a hotel booking or car hire, to contribute to the debate. I will take advice during the is bought within a 48-hour window—sold by existing 217WH Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing 218WH

[Mrs Ellman] The Government were well placed to overcome the problem of that relative lack of formal reaction from ATOL operators are now covered. Secondly, customers consumers and consumer groups by commissioning buying holiday packages covered by ATOL must now their own research into whether consumers understood be issued with a certificate telling them that that is the the concept of ATOL cover and whether they wanted it case. Those two changes are an advance. to apply to packages that they assemble themselves The extension of ATOL to certain flight plus holidays online. We must remember the changing nature of the is estimated to bring some 6 million additional holidays way in which people organise their holidays, because into the scheme, ensuring that 60% of holidaymakers individual consumers organising their own holidays are covered. The extra revenue brought into the scheme and assembling packages online is a growing trend, so it by those extra travellers should help reduce the charge is important for us to know what consumer views are per passenger, but operators have challenged the and about the type of insurance that they think most Government’s figures, claiming that the travel industry appropriate. Up until now, however, the Government will find ways around the new regulations. have not done that. The extension of the scheme has not been based on explicit consumer research, and I Jim Fitzpatrick: My hon. Friend is outlining clearly want the Minister to tell us why the Government did the background to the ATOL scheme and illustrating not do more to find out specifically what consumers the details. She mentioned the changes. On Tuesday, we want. had the opportunity to debate in the Chamber the The Committee welcomed the introduction of the Lords amendments to the Civil Aviation Bill, and the ATOL certificate, which will increase clarity for consumers Minister moved amendments to improve the ATOL about their cover. We have found a consistent issue over scheme. Will she be referring in her remarks to how the years to be that passengers and holidaymakers those amendments improve the scheme? They relate to simply do not know what they are covered for. There is what she is discussing, and they go part of the way a risk, however, that consumers who buy holidays that towards what she wants addressed, which is the 21st-century are not ATOL protected will not realise that. Owing to way of booking holidays. the Government’s positive action, the people who are Mrs Ellman: Yes, I will be referring to that point. I now ATOL protected will know that they are covered, would like some information from the Minister on what but the ones who are not covered will not know, because has happened in practice since the scheme was changed they will not have a certificate. Do the people without a in April. certificate realise that that means they are not covered Our other concern about the extension of ATOL by ATOL? We simply do not know. involved the lack of consumer input into the changes. More could be done to inform consumers not covered The Government’s consultation on the change attracted by scheme of their position and options. The Government just four responses from consumer groups, which I find agreed to consider our suggestion, perhaps by introducing pretty amazing, because I have had responses from a voluntary scheme for airlines to inform customers of constituents concerned about the scheme as it was their protection—or lack of it—when buying a flight. operating. The responses from those four consumer Can the Minister tell me what progress has been made groups hardly seemed to feature in the Government’s in taking that suggestion forward? analysis. Only one consumer group, Holiday Travel Watch, submitted evidence to our inquiry, opposing the Mark Lazarowicz: That is important because, as my extension of ATOL to flight plus holidays. hon. Friend said, normal people make their holiday The Committee was concerned, as was I, about the arrangements, effectively, by putting together their own minimal consumer response. We need to know what packages, which raises the issue of what cover there consumers think about the proposed changes and how should be in the event of an airline-only arrangement they are working, and what further changes consumers falling through if the airline goes out of business. There want. are clear difficulties with doing something at UK level only, as well as issues of practicality, but the report Jim Fitzpatrick: Having read the recommendations highlights the importance of voluntary agreements and from my hon. Friend’s Committee and the Government discussion in the industry up to a European level. Does response, one of the questions that I will be asking she, as I do, think it important for the Government to the Minister later—reinforcing what she is asking at be able to show that they are actively pursuing the the moment—is about the Government’s saying that the possibility at European level? That is another point to responsibility for ensuring protection against the collapse which the Minister needs to respond when we reach the of a holiday lies with the consumer. Part of the great appropriate point in the proceedings. difficulty is that consumers do not pay enough attention to whether they are insured and, if they get stranded, Mrs Ellman: I agree with my hon. Friend that the the taxpayer picks up the bill. matter needs to be pursued in the European arena, Mrs Ellman: My hon. Friend’s comments reflect views because the nature of air travel is such that it is likely to that the Committee has heard over a long period—we involve travel outside this country. We need to know have been looking at the issue for a number of years. from the Minister exactly what is happening and what Particularly when people are stranded on holiday and progress, if any, has been made. have problems, we realise that those consumers simply As my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and did not know what they were covered for or indeed Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) mentioned, the Civil Aviation whether they were covered. That has to be a key issue Bill includes clauses that will make more fundamental for the Government. They have partially addressed it, change possible. Such changes will be implemented, we but I will say later how I think that that is proceeding. are told, at a future date. Will the Minister say what the 219WH Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing 220WH timetable for that implementation is? As my hon. Friend for Transport in this instance have a way of influencing said, there was a debate on the subject yesterday, and what happens, and should advocate what they believe is amendments to the Bill were discussed, but we need to best for our travel industry. Will the Minister update us know the timetable so that we can monitor progress. on what is being discussed at European Union level, During the Select Committee inquiry, the then Minister and on the Government’s view on the matter? It is was asked how the Civil Aviation Bill would affect important to know what the Government, through the holiday insurance cover, and it was clear that there Department for Transport or any other appropriate would be major changes. We need to know the detail of part of Government, are doing to pursue what they such changes, as well as the timetable for implementation believe is the right way to proceed on travel insurance, of the Bill. and getting the best deal for British consumers. In future, packages sold by airlines and by those designated as agents for the consumer, will be included Mark Lazarowicz: That is particularly important because in ATOL. The Committee supports that change, because in the few instances of airlines going out of business in it is an anomaly that a holiday package sold by a travel recent years, most have been pretty small, and passengers agent has ATOL protection while the same package have been picked up by other, larger airlines. However, sold online by a firm operating as an agent for the low-cost budget airlines are now operating throughout consumer—for which there is a specific definition—is the European Union, and many are based in other not covered. That is extremely confusing for the consumer, countries where a UK operator might not feel inclined and one reason for the reform is to provide greater to offer a replacement flight if it had no connection clarity for the consumer, as well as more comprehensive with the UK. Is that not an important reason for cover, and to create a more even playing field in the addressing the matter at European level, and why the industry. When we conducted our inquiry, we spoke to a Government must show that they are actively pursuing range of people, including those from the travel industry the issue to try to get an appropriate solution for and its different sectors. One point made forcefully to us consumers? was that different parts of the industry would be affected in different ways, and a strong view from some was that Mrs Ellman: My hon. Friend makes an important there should be an even playing field for the travel point. One issue raised during our inquiry was that the industry itself. The Government are addressing that European travel package regulations are being renegotiated, situation, but we need to know how the proposals will which may take some time. That makes it particularly change it. We need to know what progress has been important that our Government, through the Department made on providing appropriate cover, clarity and even- for Transport or whatever part of the Government is handedness for the consumer, and on creating a more thought to be correct, advocate during the long-drawn-out equal playing field in the travel sector. discussions on that package, what is correct for UK consumers. It is an ongoing process, and it would be There have been calls for the Government to go helpful to know what the Department is pursuing in further than they propose and to bring all international this area at European level, what stage those discussions flights within ATOL, providing passengers with protection have reached, and how it will be involved as they from airline insolvency. In our inquiry, we found different proceed and before the extensive European travel package views in different parts of the travel sector. ABTA, the regulations are finalised. Association of British Travel Agents, has argued strongly for that, pointing out that tour operators often fail The charge of £2.50 per passenger to pay for ATOL because airlines have run into financial difficulties. On is unfair, because it is not linked to the value of the the whole, the airlines oppose such calls, arguing that holiday booking or any assessment of risk. Someone there is a significant difference between a holiday package booking a cheap package deal with an established operator and a flight. They suspect that the change would mean pays the same for protection as someone buying a their being asked to bail out the Air Travel Trust Fund, luxury trip to a far-flung country with a niche provider. which, they argue, has been emptied because of what That is unfair, and the situation would be even worse if they allege to be badly managed tour operators going flight-only bookings were included, because the ATOL bust. Those were the points made to us in our inquiry, charge could be a high proportion of the cost of a although we did not get a unanimous view from those cheap flight. The Government have agreed to re-evaluate who came to speak to us. the level and the basis of the charge. Will the Minister say what progress is being made with the review? On balance, it would be helpful to see international flights covered by ATOL. The additional cost per ticket On the long-term options for ATOL, we considered would be small, consumers could be confident of whether it should be scrapped altogether and replaced repatriation in the event of an airline becoming insolvent, with private insurance. We concluded that that was not and the scope for operators to find loopholes in the possible. Few insurance policies are available to provide ATOL rules would be reduced; quite a number of the the same level of protection, and the Government cannot witnesses to our inquiry felt that if a scheme for partial avoid their responsibility swiftly to repatriate people cover was proposed, part of the industry would find stranded abroad because a travel firm has failed. The loopholes to get around the new regulations. The European EU package travel directive requires the UK to provide Commission is looking hard at the question, and my a financial protection scheme for holidaymakers. hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Nevertheless, there is scope for further reform, particularly Leith was right about the importance of looking at the when the scheme’s deficit has been cleared. In the issue across Europe. When a decision is taken in Europe, Committee’s view, a reformed scheme must distinguish it is not taken just by another body with no reference to clearly between financial protection for consumers, the United Kingdom Government. There is a process, which might sometimes be covered by private insurance, and the Government and specifically the Department and repatriation, which is unavoidably an issue for the 221WH Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing 222WH

[Mrs Ellman] As my hon. Friend also outlined, protection is not just good; it is essential. When companies fail, citizens Government. The scheme should be industry funded, may be abandoned, and certainly distressed. Responsibility not reliant on Government guarantees as at present, is then on the Government to rescue them, and ultimately and perhaps it should be managed by the industry. the taxpayer must foot the bill. That cannot be right. If Consumers should have a greater say in deciding what is people are able to enjoy holidays abroad, there must be covered, and there should be more research on what some responsibility on them, as well as the organisations consumers want. There must be more clarity and more that get them to their destination, to ensure that they public information, so that consumers are clear about are covered for returning home. The previous Government when they are covered and when they are not. The were addressing the need for reform, and this Government Committee would like the cost per booking to come have carried that on, as well as the need to close the down, and be proportionate to the price of the package. deficit, balance the fund and provide future protection If that were done, much of the controversy about the in the light of how bookings are made in the 21st century. scheme might fade away. A helpful briefing from the Association of British In recent years, the internet has enabled some people Travel Agents says in respect of the modern way that to bypass travel agents and tour operators, and to put people book holidays that together their own package holidays. The ATOL scheme “robust evidence exists to prove that airlines can and do fail has not kept pace with that development. It has run into financially. Since 2000, 46% of monies paid out from the ATTF financial difficulties, and there is now confusion about on failed ATOL holders can be attributed to the knock-on effects who is covered by the scheme and who is not. The of airline insolvencies.” Committee welcomes the Government’s steps for reform, It continues: but there is much more to be done. I look forward to hearing about further proposals for change. “In the last three years alone, 51% of all claims on the ATTF can be attributed to monies paid out following failures of ATOL The nature of the leisure industry and holiday bookings holders as a direct result of airline insolvencies”. has changed. Travel protection needs to reflect those changes and consumers’ needs. The Department has That reinforces my hon. Friend’s point about the modern started to address that, but a great deal more needs to way of booking holidays. be done, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister I shall refer to some of the recommendations in the what steps are being taken, and what the Government’s Committee’s reports, and to the Government response, plans are. to reinforce what my hon. Friend said. Recommendation 2 says that additional consumer protection is needed, Hywel Williams (in the Chair): I call Jim Fitzpatrick. and in respect of consumers the Government responded “so they can make alternative arrangements for financial protection, if desired.” 1.55 pm The essential question here relates to many of the Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): I am points made by my hon. Friend and to the Committee’s sorry, Mr Williams, as that comes as a bit of a surprise recommendations. As she said, only four consumers in that I was anticipating other colleagues to be called responded to the report. We had an exchange about to speak before me. However, I am grateful for the consumer awareness of whether they are protected. opportunity. People want to book the best holiday at the cheapest price, and they may not recognise whether those holidays Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): In the are ATOL protected. Therefore, the Government’s comment interests of clarity, I should say that my ambition is to in response to recommendation 2—that consumers speak in the second debate. I hope that this brief “can make alternative arrangements for financial protection, if interruption gives the hon. Gentleman time to get his desired”— paperwork in order. is somewhat inadequate. We do not want people to want Jim Fitzpatrick: Given the number of colleagues who to be rescued; we want them to help to pay for the cost have been able to attend, and given other business in the of being rescued, because if they do not, the rescue is House, I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman down to the Government and the taxpayer foots the will have ample opportunity to make a substantial bill. contribution to the second debate, given that we have That theme is continued in recommendation 7. The three hours in which to discuss both reports. Government responded: Welcome to the Chair, Mr Williams. It is a pleasure to “When a consumer does not receive a Certificate, they will see you presiding over our business. I also welcome the know that they will not be covered by the ATOL scheme”. 17th report from the Select Committee on Transport, However, I am not sure that the consumer will know “Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (ATOL) Reform”. As about that if they do not receive a certificate. It is clear my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside that a lot of people, over recent years and decades, have (Mrs Ellman), the Chairman of the Committee, eloquently been stranded, thinking that they were covered, without outlined in introducing the report, the air travel trust realising that they were not, because they did not understand fund has its origins in the 1970s, but in March 2012 it the scheme. registered a deficit of some £18.5 million. She mentioned the fact that in 1992, 98% of holidays were covered by Subsequently, the Government say that they ATOL, but in recent times the figure for the market in “will consider with the CAA… suggesting information that should package holidays, which were the original target for the be provided to consumers about financial protection every time protection scheme, has fallen way below 40%. that a flight is purchased.” 223WH Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing 224WH

Our point of view, and the theme of the Committee’s I was under the impression—totally wrongly, as it report, is that everybody should be protected, and a way happens—that the debate would start at half-past 2, must be found to ensure that that protection is included and I had planned on that basis. What had not been in the price of the holiday. taken into account was the fact that we have, of course, Finally,the Government’s response to recommendations 5 modernised our hours since the middle of October and and 9 states: that debate starts at 1.30. “The requirement that those organising and selling package I am very, very sorry about that. I am furious with holidays should have in place provision for refunds or repatriation myself that I have been discourteous the Transport in the event of organiser insolvency comes from the PTD.” Committee and to the Chamber. I can guarantee you, In our view, the position is straightforward: the Government Mr Williams, that this will never happen again, as it need to ensure that consumers are protected, even against affects me, and I hope that, in that spirit, you and hon. themselves. Members will accept my apology. There is no excuse whatever. Competition within the travel industry is fierce, with many great holidays on offer from airlines, travel companies, Mrs Ellman: I completely accept the Minister’s apology. package holiday companies, and all manner of individual At times, we all get caught out by changes in the organisations and collectives, and the Committee is timetable. Until relatively recently, I thought the debate asking a number of questions that the Government was at 2.30, then I discovered that it was to start at 1.30. need to address. My hon. Friend detailed those issues in It is perfectly understandable. her opening remarks, covering the scheme’s history and asking the Minister a number of questions that I know Mr Burns: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Lady, he will respond to in due course, because they are who is being remarkably generous in the circumstances. outstanding from the Committee’s report. I have reinforced Although I appreciate her kindness, there is no excuse some of those questions, because they are fundamental for what has happened. I should have been here at 1.30, to the well-being of the scheme. but I do thank her. The scheme has been reformed in recent years, and It is clear that the hon. Lady’s Committee has taken a that continues with the amendments to the Civil Aviation keen interest in ATOL reform and I am glad to have the Bill moved by the Minister in the House on Tuesday. opportunity to discuss it further following the Committee’s Clearly, the Government are indicating that they will report, which was published in April. Since the Committee continue with that reform and that, in due course, they reported on ATOL reform, significant changes to the will hold a consultation on future reforms. Comments scheme have come into effect that have greatly improved made to me and to the Opposition suggest that there is its functioning. Reform of the ATOL scheme is necessary keen interest in continuing the reform process and in to increase consumer clarity, ensure its efficient functioning making progress. If I remember correctly, the Minister and, in the longer term, put it on a self-sustaining said in the House on Tuesday that a further consultation financial basis. is due in the spring, but the question from the industry, consumer groups and the Committee is, when is it likely On 30 April, the same day as the Committee’s report to happen and can it be expedited? was published, the Civil Aviation (Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing) Regulations 2012 came into force, bringing This is unfinished business, going back many years. flight-plus holidays into the scope of the ATOL scheme. We began with it in government, and it is great to see A flight-plus holiday is one where the consumer requests the coalition continuing with it. We want the situation to book a flight and accommodation or car hire within reformed, the deficit bridged, and the fund to be in a two-day period. That change gives consumers greater surplus, not in excess, with enough to cover any clarity and covers many more people. It means that, contingencies. The whole travel industry—airlines and essentially, if one buys something from a travel agent or travel operators—wants exactly the same thing. There is tour operator that looks like a package holiday, including agreement that progress has been made over recent a flight, one should be protected by ATOL. years, but work remains to be done and I look forward to the Minister outlining how he intends to finish the The Civil Aviation Authority has reported that in job. 2012-13, 2.5 million more holidaymakers can be covered, thanks to that single change. The flight-plus reform has enjoyed broad support from industry, consumer groups 2.5 pm and other stakeholders. As the Committee and our analysis have suggested, it is critical that consumers are The Minister of State, Department for Transport aware of their coverage. Flight-plus has gone a long way (Mr Simon Burns): It is a pleasure to serve under your towards clarifying the ATOL scheme and reducing the chairmanship, Mr Williams, and I am pleased that the chances of consumers mistakenly thinking that they are Transport Committee has secured this debate on a very covered, but further to address that, on 1 October, we important subject. introduced the ATOL certificate, which is a standardised Before I get to the detail of the points that have been document given to every person booking an ATOL-covered raised and of the Government’s approach, both to the holiday. It sets out the coverage and says what to do if Committee’s report and in terms of our response to the things go wrong. recommendations, I must make an abject apology—not The introduction of the ATOL certificate has been only to you, Mr Williams, but to the hon. Member for widely welcomed by the travel industry and consumer Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman); to the shadow Minister, groups alike. On its launch, it received favourable coverage the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim in the travel industry and national press. The travel Fitzpatrick); and to others who have come to the debate— trade has worked hard to get ready for all the ATOL for the fact that I turned up late. reforms, and I applaud its efforts to do so. The CAA 225WH Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing 226WH

[Mr Simon Burns] agent technically buys one on the consumer’s behalf, as we discussed on Tuesday in the main Chamber, which has also done a very good job in supporting the travel means that it is outside the scope of the current ATOL trade in its preparations. Receiving the ATOL certificate scheme. The powers in the Bill will allow that method of shows that holidaymakers and travellers are covered; avoiding the scheme to be removed. equally, not receiving an ATOL certificate with a booking Some companies might claim that they are merely indicates that people are not covered. It removes any facilitating a purchase of a flight, but neither buy on the uncertainty and gives holidaymakers and travellers peace consumer’s behalf nor make available or sell flight of mind. accommodation to them. Thus, they might argue that To make the changes effective, the holiday-buying they are outside the scope of the ATOL scheme. That public must be aware of them. To that end, the CAA is business practice is a potential avoidance approach. preparing for a publicity campaign in the next few The Bill will give my right hon. Friend the Secretary of months to increase awareness of the changes. Fortunately, State powers to require such businesses to hold an that will coincide with a significant period when people ATOL licence. are preparing for and buying their summer holidays, The Bill is awaiting Royal Assent. Our intention is to immediately after Christmas. That is a relevant and create a level competitive playing field and to avoid appropriate time to start getting the message across. holidaymakers mistakenly thinking that they have protection We are pleased with what we have achieved with the when they do not. Holidays including a flight that look ATOL scheme thus far. It goes a long way towards like package holidays should be protected like package addressing a number of the points in the report. We holidays under the ATOL scheme. These further reforms intend to address some of the remaining issues in the will go a long way towards ensuring that. ATOL scheme using new powers in the Civil Aviation Bill, which completed its progress through Parliament Of course, before taking further steps, we will consult earlier this week and will receive Royal Assent in due widely. Subject to parliamentary processes, we expect to course. produce an impact assessment and launch a consultation on draft regulations in 2013. Our decisions will be based on the outcome of that consultation. Jim Fitzpatrick: I hope that the Minister will forgive me if I have missed this point in his comments, and if he has not covered it, perhaps he will do so. Mrs Ellman: I am reassured by the information that the right hon. Gentleman is now giving us, but can he We referred to the fact that the percentage of holidays say when he anticipates that a new scheme or the new covered by ATOL is falling because of the different regulations will be operational? ways in which people book their holidays. The figure was 98% in 1992, but it is down to below 40%. Will the Minister tell us the percentage of holidays covered by Mr Burns: I would very much like to do so, but that the current scheme and the estimate of the number that would give too many hostages to fortune at this stage, will be covered following the reforms that he has introduced because, as I said, we are going to base our decisions on and the amendments made to the Bill? How much of a the outcome of consultations. The consultations will be gap will there be? on draft regulations. Obviously, that is a due process, Will the Minister be looking to address that gap, with time scales. Once we have had a consultation, we which we need to close, when he undertakes consultation will have to consider fully the responses to it and any in the spring, although we will never get to 100%, lessons that we may learn from it—any points that arise. because some people will always book their own holiday Therefore, I hesitate to give a precise timetable that I and do their own thing? Will he give us those answers at could be held to, because often, for the best reasons and some point? intentions, one does not keep to a precise timetable, which then leads to further problems. However, I can assure the hon. Lady that we are determined to do this Mr Burns: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because we want to get protection for those who deserve and I will certainly come back to him because I also and should have protection. We want to get it right, want to deal with a number of points raised by the hon. effective and appropriate, and we will do it without Member for Liverpool, Riverside. cutting corners as soon as it is practically possible to Before the hon. Gentleman’s valid intervention, I was do so. about to say that we are pleased with the achievements Let me return to the intervention from the hon. that the ATOL scheme has so far realised. We believe Member for Poplar and Limehouse about the figures. that they go a long way to addressing a number of the This information may be helpful to him. As I understand points in the report. We intend to address some of the it, ATOL coverage is now at about 50% for leisure trips remaining issues in the ATOL scheme using the new abroad by air. We expect flight plus reforms to increase powers in the Bill. For example, holidays sold by airlines that to 55%. No estimate has been made at this stage of are not required to be ATOL protected. That creates a further increases from reforms that will be made by the regulatory inequality and potential confusion for Civil Aviation Bill. However, we expect that to be included holidaymakers. It is important to have a consistent in the consultations next year, so that when we move regulatory framework for businesses selling holidays, forward with our precise proposals to tackle these problems, including a flight, as far as is consistent with EU law. we may be in a better position to upgrade the second of Further, some consumers are not protected when the figures that I gave the hon. Gentleman and anticipate buying a holiday because that holiday was procured on the increase in the coverage percentage as a result of the an “agent for the consumer” basis. That means that, proposals that we will bring forward. I hope that that rather than selling a holiday to the consumer, the travel was of some help to the hon. Gentleman. 227WH Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing 228WH

Jim Fitzpatrick: I appreciate the statistics that the It will become part of people’s mindset that the Minister has just cited. I confess to being a little surprised protection exists, and they will want to know whether that, with the advent of flight plus, the protection goes they are protected because of the possible implications only to 55% of people travelling abroad on holiday. I if they are not. This is slightly off the subject, so I will am not pointing the finger at anyone and saying that keep the comments brief, but that is like people going they are responsible for that, but it shows the size of the abroad under their own initiative, who may not get the problem facing the Government, because the other 45% health card for the reciprocal health arrangements in of travellers are the ones the Government will have to Europe if they travel there, or private health insurance if pick up the tab for if they need emergency flights to get they travel further afield—to the United States or them home. Those are the people the taxpayer wants to wherever—although, if they are taken ill or have an ensure are paying some insurance cover for themselves. accident and need medical treatment, they will face catastrophic bills that could, for instance, completely Mr Burns: I can understand the hon. Gentleman’s change their family’s financial position. point. I think, though, that, up to a point the relatively The more publicity there is and the more that people small increase in the coverage reflects the fact that the are aware of what the situation is and what protections number of people who buy a package holiday in the they have, the more the consumer will be interested and conventional sense is far greater than the number of concerned to find out exactly what they are buying. people who will buy a flight plus plan. I think that that is one of the main reasons for the relatively small Mrs Ellman: Does the Minister know when the CAA increase in the percentage. intends to embark on the advertising and the promotion On ATOL and our proposals, our aim—from the of information? Will the CAA do that with the industry actions that we have already taken and those that will itself, and will the advertising relate to the consumer flow from the Civil Aviation Bill—is to provide clarity needs that we have already identified? One feature that about coverage rather than to protect everyone. The has been constant, certainly over the many years that ATOL certificate will help to show consumers when the Committee and people elsewhere have looked at the they are or are not covered. They can then decide what issue, is the confusion in the customer’s mind about level of protection they purchase through insurance or whether they are insured, and about what they are by paying by credit card, which is an element of the covered for and when. protection in the scheme. The scheme will give greater clarity to individuals before they decide what to purchase. Mr Burns: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention, because it raises an important issue. As I Jim Fitzpatrick: One point referred to earlier is the said earlier, we expect the campaign to be launched by consumer’s awareness of whether what they purchase is the CAA immediately after Christmas. That is when ATOL-protected. That is a huge issue, because the more many people consider purchasing holidays for the summer, that people realise they are uninsured or unprotected, so it will be relevant at that time. It will seek to make the more likely they are to think about that and to people aware not only of the ATOL scheme—for those decide that it is worth the £2.50, as it currently is, who are not aware of it, and I fear that many are not or to protect their family and themselves against anything do not fully understand what it is—but of the changes that might happen, and with which they may not be and improvements made during this year. It will also familiar. provide clarity, so that the message gets across to those The Minister may not be able to respond on this now, who are purchasing a holiday, flights or whatever, that but in due course, when the CAA launches the extended as well as looking for value for money and so on, they scheme, will it seek the biggest possible buy-in, particularly should check whether their purchase is ATOL-protected from the companies that offer protection, to have as and what that protection means. much publicity as possible? That would raise the awareness of consumers, and allow companies engaged in the Jim Fitzpatrick: I was going to ask the Minister scheme to point the finger at those that are not, and say another question but, if I may, I will ask him a to people, “If you go with them, you are not covered; if supplementary to the one from my hon. Friend the you come with us, you are.” Member for Liverpool, Riverside. The Minister has said that the CAA is looking to Mr Burns: The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely start advertising in the new year. We all know that valid point. For any scheme, a crucial element, apart summer holidays start being advertised on Boxing day. from its effectiveness, is people’s understanding and That is the sort of time when people are indoors and knowledge of what they may—or, more importantly, when those who work have a few days off, and they will may not—have protection against. be tempted by the adverts on the TV.That is the time for I have every confidence that companies, whether tour the industry to advertise. My hon. Friend asked whether operators or airlines, will do all they can to make the CAA will be engaged with the industry.An imprimatur potential customers aware that they are covered by the on adverts—that they are CAA-approved—might be scheme, because that is a positive selling point for the way to co-ordinate the publicity campaign between customers and gives them peace of mind. However, as I the industry, which will have greater buy-in from the said earlier, the CAA will also publicise the scheme customer, and the CAA, which might have their future proactively to ensure that people are generally aware of bills reduced. their protections if they make purchases from those I wanted to ask about the Minister’s earlier comment covered by the scheme or from those who, in due on people not taking out private health insurance, for course, will be brought within its ambit through our use example, when they go to the United States. Most of the powers contained in the Civil Aviation Bill. people know that if anything happens to them there, 229WH Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing22 NOVEMBER 2012 Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing 230WH

[Jim Fitzpatrick] Lady and the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse will accept, it would be rather pointless to put the cart they face a massive health bill, and I think that most before the horse. people therefore take out private insurance. Are there The scheme is financed by the Air Travel Trust Fund. any figures for the comparison between the number of For historic reasons, the ATTF has a deficit and requires those who travel to such difficult places and the 50% to a commercial borrowing facility, backed by my Department, 55%, who the Minister says are ATOL-protected against of up to £20 million. The introduction of the ATOL the collapse of their airline? protection contribution and the increased number of protected passengers have, thanks to our recent reforms, Mr Burns: On the last point, to the best of my brought more money into the fund, and the deficit now knowledge, there are no figures, and I suspect that, by is on track to being eliminated in the next year or so. their nature, it would be difficult to find any accurate That presents an opportunity to reform the finances of figures. However, there is one benefit. The hon. Gentleman the ATOL scheme. talks about the north Atlantic route, on which the two The Government will consider broader changes to main carriers are British Airways and Virgin. At the the scheme and invite comments on its funding and moment, they have both voluntarily signed up, so their management to ensure its continued effectiveness. Our passengers have the protections. They have done that aim is to ensure that the scheme is equitable for consumers, simply because they want to give such protection to the travel industry and the taxpayer. their customers, and I pay tribute to them for doing so The hon. Lady raised a number of matters during her voluntarily. contribution. On some, for the reasons that she is aware As the hon. Gentleman rightly says, the start of the of and that I am acutely aware of, I will have to write to advertising campaign is intended to coincide with the her to give her the answers. She asked whether airlines Boxing day bank holiday. He and I are familiar with and tour operators based in other countries will be the huge number of adverts that traditionally emanate covered by the scheme. All sales of package holidays in immediately after breakfast on that day. the EU are covered by the protections in the PTD, but under EU law we cannot require airlines or tour operators On whether the CAA will consult the industry, I have established in a European economic area state, other no doubt that it will. The CAA wants a focused system than in the UK, to have an ATOL licence to protect of advertising that gets across the message. It is open, as sales of flight plus holidays. That is why we want to the Government are, to views, opinions and examine the Commission’s proposed reforms to the recommendations that will help it come up with the PTD before consulting on any new ATOL regulations, most informative and best advertising, and with maximum as that might extend protection to all or some flight coverage for their message. plus type holidays. We want to understand the impact I am not sure that I altogether have the same faith as on UK airlines and other businesses as part of that the hon. Gentleman in human nature. Although, to the consultation, and, as I say, we will engage in that once best of my knowledge, no figures can prove or disprove the Commission has published its proposals. this, I suspect that significantly more people do not The hon. Lady also asked about the discussions on bother to get health insurance to go across the Atlantic travel insurance between the EU and the Government. than either of us might think, particularly those who go All I can say is that they are ongoing. The most appropriate for only a short period and try to wing it, believing that time to discuss them is within the whole consultation nothing will happen to them. However, that is a slightly process on the PTD in due course next year. different point. In conclusion, as might be clear by now, ATOL Let me now move on to the European angle that the reform is not a simple process, but at each step of the report covered. The Committee called for a clearer way, the Government have acted to create an effective distinction between the consumer protection and the and financially self-sustaining scheme. To ensure effective repatriation functions of ATOL. Much depends, however, protection for travellers and holidaymakers, the Government on what happens at the European level with the planned have increased the extent of coverage, improved consumer reforms of the package travel directive. The ATOL clarity and moved to bring more holidays into the scope scheme implements in part the PTD requirement for of the ATOL scheme. We shall keep the principle of insolvency protection for consumers. We expect the effective protection in mind as we consider further Commission to announce its reform proposals in spring changes to the ATOL scheme in the near future. 2013, and the Government will consult on what position Once again, I thank the Transport Committee for its the UK should take. The form of the Commission’s constructive comments and I am glad to have had the proposals will help determine how we implement further opportunity to debate this important issue. Again, I changes to the ATOL scheme, so we will not consult on offer my sincere and deepest apologies to the members the new ATOL regulations until the Commission has of the Committee for the position that I put them in at announced its proposals, because, as both the hon. the beginning of the debate. 231WH 22 NOVEMBER 2012 Flight Time Limitations 232WH

Flight Time Limitations there are serious questions about EASA’s work, particularly in relation to how it has used scientific advice. More [Relevant documents: First Report of the Transport Committee, plainly, there are questions about how EASA did not Flight Time Limitations, HC 164, and the Government use the latest scientific advice in assessing safe standards. Response, HC 558.] Many aspects of flight time limitations are relatively uncontentious, but some have generated passionate debate. 2.35 pm I will focus this afternoon on the most hotly contested Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): issues, and I will set out my Committee’s conclusions. We now come to our second debate of the afternoon on We looked at the proposals that were published by the flight time limitations applying to airline pilots and EASA in January this year. EASA has since published cabin crew. The subject is complex, but it has a direct its formal opinion, which will now be reviewed by the and major effect on anyone who flies on a commercial European Commission before coming into law. I will be aircraft. Fundamentally, it is about safety—regulating putting some questions to the Minister about EASA’s the hours and working practices of air crew so that they latest conclusions. Again, I stress that we are not talking are not too tired to do their jobs and can keep passengers about the EU suddenly announcing a decision without and crews safe. It is a matter of crucial importance. proper consultation. This country, including the Department Human error is associated with around 80% of aviation for Transport, is part of that ongoing and long consultation, accidents. A major research study has shown that pilot so it has an active part to play. fatigue contributes to between 15% and 20% of fatal air One of the main concerns of the Committee was accidents. Fatigue makes it harder for people to concentrate, about the number of hours that crew can fly overnight. decreases reaction times, and increases the risk of people The scientific advice provided to EASA has been clear lapsing momentarily into unconsciousness or sleep. All in recommending that the proposed 11-hour duty period such problems can prove fatal if the fatigued person is was too long and that the limit should be 10 hours. The piloting an aircraft. Government told us that they would not press EASA to The most shocking statistic that we came across change its proposals, arguing instead for more active during our inquiry was from the British Airline Pilots management of long overnight flight duty periods. In Association. A survey of its members found that 43% of that, the Government were successful. But why is the pilots reported involuntarily falling asleep while on the Minister satisfied that pilots will be allowed to fly flight deck. Of those, 31% awoke to find their co-pilot overnight for one more hour than scientific opinion asleep. That demonstrates why the subject of flight time considers to be the safe limit? That is an extremely limitations is so deserving of our attention. serious matter. Another concern was about the very long duty periods Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): I am allowed for under EASA’s proposals. We heard that a grateful that my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, pilot could be landing a plane after 19 hours at work Riverside (Mrs Ellman), who is Chair of the Transport and perhaps after 21 or 22 hours of being awake. The Committee, has raised that statistic; it certainly saves CAA described that scenario as “exceptionally rare”, me raising it later on. It truly is shocking. Has she but I do not think that anyone here today would be considered what the impact will be of the proposal to happy to fly if they knew that their pilot had been reduce the number of pilots on some long-haul flights working around the clock, however unusual that situation from three to two given that they might both be asleep, is alleged to be. or does she have further information about whether EASA’s new proposals seem to improve that situation, there might only have been two pilots on such aircraft at with a cap on airport stand-by and associated flight the time? duty of 16 hours. However, BALPA has put a new scenario to us that shows how other aspects of the rules Mrs Ellman: I will take up that point in a moment. could lead to a pilot working for almost 24 hours, if a Flight time limitations are a complex package of long period on stand-by waiting for a delay to an measures, dealing with how working hours are distributed aircraft to be resolved is followed by a normal duty over the year, start and finish times, rest periods, and period. I would be grateful for the Minister’s observations the impact of time zones. UK airlines are currently on a situation of that nature. regulated by the Civil Aviation Authority. The major change that sparked our inquiry is that the rules are The Minister of State, Department for Transport now being set at an EU level by the European Aviation (Mr Simon Burns): Perhaps it would be helpful to the Safety Agency, which is based in Cologne. As part of hon. Lady if I said that such a situation is not the our inquiry we visited EASA, to discuss its work with intention of the proposal. A cap of 16 hours has been the agency’s director. placed on combinations of airport stand-by and flight The UK’s flight time limits are set by the CAA, which duty periods, to clarify the issue. I hope that she finds is permissible under EU regulations. In 2009, EASA that helpful. started a process of establishing a Europe-wide scheme, and the UK Government are part of those negotiations, Mrs Ellman: I thank the Minister for his comments so the matter has not come on us suddenly. The advantage and I would be grateful to receive more detail on that in establishing EU-wide flight time limitations is that cap, in a written response, so that we can consider it. safety standards across the EU are expected to rise, There are concerns that there could be situations in which will benefit passengers travelling on European which EASA’s 16-hour limit is breached. As I am sure carriers. However, there is also a real risk that well- that right hon. and hon. Members recognise, even after established UK standards will be reduced as part of the the short time I have been discussing the issue, the process of achieving consensus across the EU. In addition, nature of the rules is complex. There are individual 233WH Flight Time Limitations22 NOVEMBER 2012 Flight Time Limitations 234WH

[Mrs Ellman] that flight time limitations are based on operational experience and negotiations with trade unions. Scientific regulations that give rise to concern, and because they advice about how fatigue affects people at work was can be combined and have an impact on each other, the overlooked. After being criticised for this omission, worry is that that might result in flying becoming less EASA commissioned three scientists to give independent safe. advice, but then ignored some of that advice. The The Committee also raised concerns about the scheduling decision to press ahead with an 11-hour overnight duty of frequent consecutive early starts, which can be period is the best example of that. During the course of particularly fatiguing. EASA requires early duties to be our inquiry, we spoke to some of those scientists and we actively managed; we heard that response in relation to found that, following their report, EASA had had very several of our recommendations. In principle, careful little contact with them, which was a matter of concern management of how rosters and duty patterns affect to us. crew is, of course, sensible. However, it is not yet clear We called on the Government to ensure that scientists what careful management will actually involve and how have a more central role in further work by EASA on it will be regulated. Will the Minister explain how UK flight time limitations. In response, we were told that airlines will discharge their responsibilities to manage the CAA wants EASA to maintain an advisory group fatigue actively, particularly where the potential for on flight time rules, calling on scientific and other fatigue is high, such as in early starts? Will he also expert advice. Is the Minister satisfied that EASA has explain how the CAA will regulate early starts? Will he developed its current process with little input from give a commitment that the CAA will step in and act scientific advisers and has directly ignored some of the against any UK airline that is not taking fatigue clear advice that it has received? Moreover, is he confident management seriously? that from now on EASA will change its ways and pay When we hear that fatigue is to be “managed”, that is more attention to experts in fatigue? This matter is of superficially reassuring, but what might happen on a great concern and relates to the safety of pilots, the day when an aircraft is flying late and timetables must public and passengers. We do not want to have a calamity be met? Would short cuts be taken? Would a member of and then look back and ask, “Why was up-to-date staff who raised the issue of management of fatigue be scientific research not incorporated into decision making?” seen as disruptive rather than concerned about safety? That is why I am posing these questions now. Those are practical issues that must be addressed, because Many other hon. Members will have been contacted it is all too easy to hide under the cloak of generalities; I by BALPA on other aspects of the rules that concern it. am sure that those generalities are well intentioned, but I want the Minister to address two further points that the test is whether they are applied in relation to a have been drawn to our attention. particular flight at a given time when there may be First, we have been told that the Government could stressful conditions. adopt the new flight time limitations and then supplement It is crucial that there is transparency about incidents them with higher national standards using existing national involving fatigue and situations that might lead to fatigue, legislation. Does the Minister think that is feasible? Is such as increases in duty periods at the commander’s he considering it? One major change, which has been in discretion. Greater public awareness will help to drive discussion since 2009, is that Ministers and the Department complacency and poor practice out of the airline sector. have told us that it would no longer be possible for the It is also essential that the under-reporting of fatigue by UK to maintain higher standards than other parts of aircrew is addressed. In 2011, just 20 reports of incidents Europe. However, we have now been told that that is not caused by fatigue that endangered or could have endangered the case. I would be grateful for some clarification from life were reported to the CAA. That is surely an example the Minister on that important point. of gross under-reporting, given the other evidence about Secondly, will the Minister and the CAA consider how common pilot fatigue is. The issue is not only what setting up the UK’s own independent fatigue science the rules say, particularly if those rules are of a general advisory panel to help the CAA implement the new nature, but what happens on a specific occasion and regulations safely and press EASA for any necessary whether a member of staff—a pilot, or indeed another changes? I cannot over-stress the importance that the member of the crew—might feel that if they make Committee attaches to the impact of scientific evidence representations they would be seen as not supportive of on fatigue, and how that is interpreted, on the complex their airline when in fact they were raising concerns combination of flight time limits. about safety. The CAA is now considering how to address under- Mr Burns: If it is helpful to the hon. Lady, may I deal reporting. It would be very helpful if the Minister told with the point about adding on to the proposals? There us exactly how the CAA is doing so, what actions will seems to be some confusion. In the light of some people be taken and how any proposals that the CAA has maintaining that we can add on if we wish to, we have would be monitored? The Government told us that they checked yet again with the Commission and have been were committed to transparency and have asked the categorically assured that we cannot. CAA to review what data can be put in the public domain without discouraging the reporting of incidents Mrs Ellman: I am sorry to hear the Minister’s response, or identifying individuals. Again, I would be grateful if but it at least clarifies how the Department sees the we received further information about what exactly is position. being planned. I return to a theme of the previous debate—the One of our most serious concerns was about EASA’s interplay of decision making between the European treatment of scientific evidence in developing its flight Union and its agencies, and the UK. I want the Minister time proposals. EASA started from the standpoint to acknowledge that the UK is not a passive recipient of 235WH Flight Time Limitations22 NOVEMBER 2012 Flight Time Limitations 236WH what the EU decides; that we are part of the decision- whom I have had some discussions about the current making process, and we should advocate what we think situation and the potential consequences of the proposals. is best. The Minister told us during our inquiry that the Department will represent the UK on the comitology [JOHN ROBERTSON in the Chair] committee, which will consider the draft Commission As has been said, the UK currently has among the regulation. I want to know what policies the Department strongest regulations in the world, but that does not has been pursuing and what policies it will pursue as the mean that we are immune from problems. The shocking process of decision making continues. statistics have already been mentioned: 43% of pilots I have been told that following an EASA committee have reportedly fallen asleep involuntarily on a flight, meeting last week, a number of member states expressed and, even more disturbingly, 31% have woken up to find concerns, and that an extraordinary EASA meeting will the co-pilot also asleep. be held to consider them. I am told that the UK was not one of the member states expressing those concerns. Is Mr Burns: May I put that in context? Those are not my information correct? Was the UK involved with hard and fast statistics but a poll, which is slightly other nations at the meeting last week in expressing different. concerns? If not, was it a conscious decision? Are there any points which the UK intends to continue to pursue Iain Stewart: I appreciate that it was a poll, but that before the matter progresses? finding must give us cause for concern. It gives us no room for complacency. The inquiry was a complicated one for the Committee to undertake, because it was about not just one change I want to back up those findings with an example, but a number of changes and the overall impact of the given to me by my constituent, of what it feels like to be combination of complex changes. It is an extremely a long-haul pilot. In a letter he sent me, he said: important matter, because it is about public safety. “As I am sure you have experienced, occasional jet lag gives There are clear benefits to setting minimum safety you a ‘hung over’, jaded feeling. Perpetual jet lag, as experienced standards across the EU, but there is a clear risk that by…long-haul pilots, gives you a much deeper seated, longer our own currently higher standards could be compromised. lasting ‘hung over’ feeling, with a reduction in your capacity for lucid, quality decision making…Additionally, normal sleep patterns I hope that the UK Government will continue to fight take several weeks to return to normal, which is quite debilitating.” for the highest possible standards. It is also important that there is an open and transparent culture in the That is what he feels. When we fly in an aeroplane, we airline industry, so that incidents involving fatigue can put our lives in the pilots’ hands, and we must have a be reported without staff fearing that they would be regime that ensures that we are as safe as we can be. reprimanded or viewed in a negative light. It is vital that While there are concerns that Europe is harmonising lessons are learned and that up-to-date scientific advice and potentially reducing the standards in this country, is heeded. the United States is moving in the other direction. It is looking at tightening up its regulations in response, I Airlines, air crew, passengers and the Government all understand, to the Colgan air accident in New York in have a strong interest in achieving the highest safety 2009, of which pilot fatigue was a proven cause. standards, which I hope the new regulations, when they are implemented, will achieve. I want a categorical As has been mentioned, the proposals for change to assurance that our Ministers are fully conscious of all our regulations come from EU legislation that was the points that I have raised and that the Committee has passed in 2008. The possibility of the United Kingdom considered, and that they will continue to pursue the maintaining its own separate regulatory regime has issue, so that the highest possible safety standards are been ruled out. I am not, in principle, against harmonisation achieved. of standards, and I completely accept and welcome the fact that for many countries in Europe, it will lead to an increase in standards. British passengers who, whether 2.55 pm for business or for leisure, do not start or finish their journeys in the UK will rely on other European airlines, Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): It is a so that increase in safety is certainly welcome. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Williams, I also accept that the harmonisation of standards has and to take part in this important debate. It is also a potential economic benefits for airlines. They are operating pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Liverpool, in tough trading conditions, so anything that helps Riverside (Mrs Ellman), Chair of the Select Committee them to survive economically is welcome, but that cannot on Transport, who has comprehensively set out the be at an unacceptable cost to safety. scope of our inquiry, investigation, conclusions and proposals. I will not repeat all the concerns that the hon. Lady listed, but I want to give a couple of illustrations to We have many debates on transport—different modes show why there is cause for concern. Again, I go back to of transport, their economics, speed and social impact—but the example of my constituent, who flies long haul and surely our most important debates are about safety. quite often does the Los Angeles to Heathrow route. It Any transport accident results in terrible cost, but clearly, is now exactly 3 o’clock, which is about the time the the consequences of an airliner incident are particularly overnight flight from Los Angeles touches down in severe. London. It is pretty windy today, so the landing would I have been concerned for some time about the proposals require all my constituent’s skills to be conducted safely. from the European Aviation Safety Agency. In addition If he was flying today, he would have got out of bed at to our work in the Select Committee, I have had meetings 2 o’clock this morning to get to the airport for a with the British Air Line Pilots Association. I also have half-past 4 departure, which means that the flight time a constituent who is a long-haul airline pilot, with is 10 or 11 hours. 237WH Flight Time Limitations22 NOVEMBER 2012 Flight Time Limitations 238WH

[Iain Stewart] Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), who spoke so eloquently about safety, and I will return to his Currently, planes have three pilots in the cockpit. remarks later. That gives each of them a chance to have a sleep so that We welcome the Transport Committee’s first report they can rest and refresh themselves. I am no expert in of the 2012-13 Session. The key question for this whole flying a plane—the Minister will be greatly relieved that debate is on the very first page of the Government I am not flying a plane—but for all the modern equipment response. The first sentence under the heading “General” that modern airliners have, flying them is still a very says: cerebral job. Pilots are required to make tricky decisions, “The Government believes that the current draft of the European and to balance different decisions, to make sure the Aviation Safety Agency’s…proposals will not lead to a diminution plane flies safely. of safety in the UK.” As has been mentioned, however, that three-man Well, we have heard from two members of the Committee, crew would be reduced to two under the current proposals. who have quoted extensively from personal experience, That reduces the potential for the crew to sleep in the constituents and BALPA submissions, and made it bunk, and they would have to sleep in their seats. That is clear that there were a number of safety concerns about not something I can do—I cannot sleep in a sedentary the regulations, and I want to emphasise some of them. position—but that is what we are going to require pilots Like the previous speakers, I look forward to the Minister’s to do. To me, that increases risk, and I am not satisfied response, and I seek the reassurance that I am sure he that the safety implications have been fully thought hopes to give us in due course. through. Recommendation 1 of the Committee’s report says I want to highlight a couple of other areas that that the CAA should set BALPA is particularly concerned about. One is the fact “out its strategy for enforcement and how it will ensure that that pilots will be legally allowed to land after being operators comply” awake for 22 hours. They could also be forced to work with their responsibility.In their response, the Government up to seven early starts in a row; that has been proved to say: cause dangerous cumulative fatigue, which can be as “The CAA will continue to work with EASA on this to ensure dangerous as drink-driving, a fact that is not fully that comprehensive guidance material is established”, appreciated. adding that once the proposals have been finalised, there will be seminars and the rest of it. I would be My other concern is one that the Parliamentary grateful if the Minister could say a little more about the Advisory Council for Transport Safety highlighted, and timing and about what progress is likely. the hon. Lady also mentioned it. The proposals are complicated and interlinked; we are not looking at just Recommendation 2 says the Government should follow one change. The advisory council’s concern was that, up because the proposals were overly and unnecessarily “the CAA’s concerns about the frequency with which the maximum flight duty period can be exceeded during a scheduled seasonal complicated, airline companies would be able, inadvertently period.” or deliberately, to misinterpret them, or to pick and choose from them, and they might make a decision in The report is referring to the concerns of the CAA, not one area without realising its consequences elsewhere. BALPA or the Transport Committee, and those concerns Again, I have some concerns about that. reflect the evidence the Committee received. The Government’s response says that they The decision we have to make is whether these changes “will raise this issue during EU discussions on this matter.” amount to an acceptable risk. Any journey, on whatever That goes back to the point raised by the Chairman of mode of transport, involves an element of risk; whether the Committee, who asked about last week’s Transport we get behind the wheel of a car, get on a bus or train, Council, the UK Government’s response and, generally, walk somewhere or fly somewhere, we all accept some where we are going on this issue. element of risk, but I am not yet convinced that the proposed changes fall within the bounds of acceptability. Recommendation 3 calls “on the CAA to investigate potential under-reporting of pilot I am particularly concerned that questions remain fatigue” about whether the proposals are based on scientific so that there can be confidence in the procedures and evidence. I accept that the Government cannot act structures put in place to protect the industry against unilaterally in this matter, but they are part of the bad practice. The Government response says: ongoing discussions in Europe, and I simply urge the “The Government accepts the recommendation to investigate Minister, in those discussions, to press his colleagues in the potential under-reporting of pilot fatigue and notes that this Europe to base any changes on science, so that we can is already under consideration by the CAA.” be as safe as possible in the sky. Again, could the Minister elaborate a little on how that I will end on the point the hon. Lady ended on: I do will be undertaken? not want to come back to the House at some point in As has been mentioned, recommendation 4 covers the future, after a disastrous air accident, to debate long-haul flights and oversight. Again, the Committee whether the changes that are happening now were quotes the CAA as having expressed reservations about responsible for that accident. the proposed flight duty at night. My hon. Friend gave a good explanation of the concerns that have been expressed, given that the scientific evidence submitted 3.14 pm to the European Aviation Safety Agency makes it absolutely Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Mr clear that the 11-hour flight duty period at night is too Robertson, it is a pleasure to see you presiding over the long. The Committee recommends debate, sir. It is also a pleasure to follow the hon. “that the Government press EASA for a lower limit”. 239WH Flight Time Limitations22 NOVEMBER 2012 Flight Time Limitations 240WH

The secondary question in respect of whether that was element of the development of the regulations. But going to be done—I will perhaps come back to this a surely scientific evidence would carry greater weight little later—is about the weight given to scientific evidence. than the comments from an operator? Perhaps the My hon. Friend said that the Committee had spoken to Minister will outline what the balance might be. the scientists, and as the report goes on to say, the Dr Rob Hunter, the head of flight safety for BALPA, Minister said that their evidence was part of the information has written to us. He has been quoted by hon. Members used. The question asked is: what is the balance of during the debate. He raises several concerns. I will objectivity? How much weight is given to the scientific mention three to reinforce that which has already been evidence? How much weight is given to other submissions referred to. The first is: and where does the balance lie in terms of the Government “The provision for airlines to extend flying hours rather than it arriving at their conclusions? being a Captain’s sole decision.” In their response to recommendation 4, the Government The second, as mentioned by the hon. Member for state that additional requirements will be included in Milton Keynes South is: the final draft of the impending rules. I am not sure whether that is covered by the Minister’s saying that “A reduction in the number of pilots needed on many long-haul that is misinformation and that there are not going to flights, so that, for example, a London to Los Angeles flight which would currently require three pilots would only require be any additional requirements. two”. Recommendation 6 states that information provided So at least one of them might be awake during the on “commander’s discretion” should be collated and whole flight if 43% or 31% of the others are asleep. The made publicly available. The Government do not believe third is: that publication of a single figure on discretion usage or even an operator’s average discretion usage would provide “An increase of over 30% more time on home standby so that any safety benefit. I must question the logic of that on pilots could be landing aircraft after having been awake for over 24 hours.” the basis that not publishing the data looks as though there is something to hide. Publishing the data, even I heard the Minister’s comment about the 16-hour time though it is only a single piece of evidence, gives the limit. Will he reinforce that in his remarks? BALPA is a safety community, the Transport Committee and others representative organisation, but it has a very strong the opportunity to look at it and say, “Is it a single safety record and a high reputation within the industry. figure? Is it insignificant, or is it a single figure tip of an I know that the Minister would not in any way impugn iceberg? Is there a lot more to this, and do we need to that. However, the fact that it is raising these issues have a look at it?” obviously means that it has to be taken seriously. The Government’s response states that the CAA will The submission, which I am sure the Minister has review what information can be published without seen, goes on to say that there is no increase in the compromising the integrity of the reporting systems hours, so this is not a protection issue in terms of and how best it can be presented to ensure that it is carrying out more work. This is about the way in which intelligible to the public. I am not sure whether that the work is actually structured. I know from my time in demeans the public’s intelligence in terms of identifying the fire service, and we have seen it in other businesses, good safety information. Most of the information will that sometimes managers think they can reconfigure be analysed by experts, professionals and organisations the hours to get greater productivity or greater efficiency, such as the Transport Committee. The CAA will be when all they are really doing is tinkering with the deciding what can and cannot be published, but when it mechanism. There is no increase in hours here. The comes to safety, we want the greatest possible transparency validity of BALPA’s concerns that this is a safety issue so that everybody can have confidence in what is going are underscored in that respect. on. Will the Minister comment on not publishing the BALPA gave evidence to the Treasury Committee on data? After all, it is the commander’s discretion—we are waking hours and provided specific examples of possible talking about the pilots in charge actually making a shifts. I will not repeat them, because they have been judgment. referred to by the Chair of the Select Committee and In recommendation 8, the Committee states: her colleague, the hon. Member for Milton Keynes “The Government should press EASA to amend its proposals to South, and I have referred to them earlier. give national aviation authorities the power to monitor”. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside That goes back to the point raised by my hon. Friend introduced the report and effectively outlined the EU the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) that consultation and the role of the UK Government. I the Government say that there is no discretion— have asked the Minister about our role within the EU. Mr Burns: No additional advice. My hon. Friend raised the key questions of reporting procedures, the scientific evidence and separate national Jim Fitzpatrick: There will be no additional reporting. standards, and she sought reassurance on those issues. But in their response to the Transport Committee report, The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South, as we all the Government say that the rules will fully address the know, has established a sound profile on the Transport Committee’s concern on the issue of oversight. Committee. He has a reputation as a diligent member of Finally, in recommendation 9, the Committee states: that Committee, as demonstrated by his attendance “we would have expected scientific advice to have had a more here today, as well as by his speech. He reinforced the prominent role in the rule-making process.” safety concerns of his colleague, the Committee Chair, That is the point that I was referring to earlier in one of and lucidly contrasted the different outcomes when the other recommendations and the question about the harmonising EU standards through regulation. In some balance of consideration given to the scientific evidence, countries we will see a lowering of standards and in which the Government in their response state is one other countries they will be raised. What is the balance 241WH Flight Time Limitations22 NOVEMBER 2012 Flight Time Limitations 242WH

[Jim Fitzpatrick] other interest groups. The Government and I have the utmost confidence in the CAA’s expertise in this area, for the UK aviation industry and the travelling public? and it is right that we should continue to be guided by He gave a graphic illustration of what is at stake here, its independent advice. relating the experience of his constituent, who, hopefully, The CAA has been at the forefront of work to has now safely landed and is on his or her way through develop a harmonised set of air safety rules across the terminal. Europe. The European Aviation Safety Agency is In conclusion, nobody here is saying that safety is responsible for developing those rules. In doing so, the anywhere other than at the forefront of Government EASA works closely with national agencies such as the thinking. However, when BALPA and the Transport CAA. Harmonised rules are important as there is a Committee, two very reputable organisations in their single market in air services within the EU. The single different arenas, raise so many questions about safety, it market has ensured real competition, benefiting passengers is the duty of the official Opposition to reinforce that. through lower fares and greater choice. Different safety We look forward to the Minister’s comments and we standards in different member states, however, can distort look for some reassurance. Hopefully, when we get to the market and could, if some do not provide a robust the end of this process, we will have a safer industry and level of safety, put flight crews and passengers at risk. not the reverse. Mrs Ellman: I agree that the Civil Aviation Authority 3.18 pm is highly respected and has a very good reputation; nevertheless there are some concerns because, during The Minister of State, Department for Transport the course of our inquiry, it expressed reservations (Mr Simon Burns): It is a pleasure to serve under your about the proposed flight duty period at night but did chairmanship, Mr Robertson. Again, I thank the Transport not object to the European Aviation Safety Agency’s Committee not only for its report on what is, as the hon. decision, even though it went against scientific advice. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) The CAA felt the situation could be “actively managed.” said in his concluding remarks, a very important subject, In practice, on a given day and in a given crisis or with but for the opportunity to debate it today. I congratulate given pressure of time, how could such a situation be the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) managed? That query does not challenge the CAA as and the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse on such, but I am asking whether, in not following scientific their speeches, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the advice, the CAA has put too much faith in the situation Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) on his being managed, when in reality that might not happen powerful and interesting contribution. on every occasion. I want to go through the overarching issues as seen from the Government’s point of view and how we believe they should be dealt with, and then I will move Mr Burns: The hon. Lady raises an important issue. I on to some of the specific questions raised. I recognise will return to this, but, yes, I do have faith in the CAA, that there has been—understandably—considerable interest because I do not think it is doing what she suggests. I in the proposals, not only in the aviation industry but in will return to that when I address a number of questions, a wider field. The proposals arouse passion, concern because it is an important issue and the hon. Lady and and interest, and it is crucial that we make sure that we others beyond the House, who will be reading the get it right. comments of all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate, need an answer. We have heard examples of pilots falling asleep on duty and concerns that, under the new proposals, they may have to land aircraft after being awake for 22 hours. Jim Fitzpatrick: This is a small point, but it has yet to For that reason, I have a number of important points to be stated in our deliberations and the Minister may well make at the outset. put something on the record in due course. First, the safety of the UK travelling public remains We finished considering the Lords amendments to of paramount importance to us, and it always will. That the Civil Aviation Bill on Tuesday. The Bill transfers has always defined our approach to air safety regulation massive new responsibilities to the Civil Aviation Authority, in the UK, as it defined the approach of the previous with which everyone is quite comfortable. Obviously—I Government, of which the hon. Member for Poplar and am sure this will happen, but I want the Minister to put Limehouse was a member, and it continues to define it on the record—we want safety to remain paramount our approach to air safety negotiations in Europe. in the CAA’s responsibilities. Given that the organisation will grow in numbers, organisational strength and structure, Secondly, decisions on safety matters must be informed will the safety element of its role grow commensurately? by the best evidence available, not just scientific evidence, important as that is, but the wealth of evidence gathered from day-to-day operations. Thirdly, safety rule-makers Mr Burns: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for need to remain objective and to base their decisions on giving me the opportunity to reiterate that safety is independent and impartial advice. paramount. Among other things, safety is the responsibility In the UK, we are fortunate to have the Civil Aviation of the CAA. The CAA’s commitment, and the amount Authority as our specialist adviser on air safety. The it devotes to ensuring that the safety of the aviation CAA is one of the world’s most respected aviation industry and airlines in this country is paramount, will safety regulators. In Europe, the CAA is the national continue, unaffected by the legislation. authority with the most experience of fatigue management. I hope that reassures the hon. Gentleman. I am not sure It is independent of Government and, more importantly, whether it has reassured him, because he has not indicated it is free from the influence of the aviation industry and either way, but I hope it does. 243WH Flight Time Limitations22 NOVEMBER 2012 Flight Time Limitations 244WH

Jim Fitzpatrick: I am grateful to the Minister. Obviously, fatigue arising in the first place. This part of the EASA I fully accept his assurances. What was going through proposal is a major step forward. It is very much in line my mind was that, notwithstanding those reassurances with UK thinking and with international best practice and the respect I have for the CAA, ultimately we are in this field. going to disagree about the conclusions that it has Although some provisions of the EASA proposals reached on some of the issues we have raised. Unless are slightly less restrictive than the current UK requirements, the Minister can give us further reassurance, there will others are more restrictive. However, as I have said, the be question marks in our mind about the length of new flight time limitations requirements are designed to flight times, the reporting procedures and the balance work as a package of measures. It does not make sense of evidence. We have to go along with the Government’s to draw comparisons with the current UK rules by objective analysis of all the evidence and with their looking at specific limits in isolation. conclusions because we cannot change them. Obviously, The CAA looked carefully at the package of new I accept the Minister’s assurances. proposals and considered how the various elements will interact. It has assured me that, in its opinion, the Mr Burns: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s last package of measures will not lead to any reduction in point. I hope that by the time I sit down I will have safety for UK airlines. Moreover, the new proposals are completely reassured him. If I were a betting man, I much more stringent than the current EU rules. EASA would not place a wager on that, but I will do my best to has identified more than 30 separate provisions where seek to assuage his concerns as much as possible. this is the case. For example, it provides for safety Importantly, different safety standards in different improvements in addressing cumulative fatigue, including member states can distort the market and could, if through extended recovery rest periods twice a month; some do not provide a robust level of safety, put flight increasing rest to compensate for time-zone differences crews and passengers at risk, which we all find unacceptable and disruptive schedules; and expanding the application and are united in wanting to address. The harmonised of the most restrictive flight duty period to 12 hours rules will apply directly to all EU airlines, ensuring that between 5 pm and 5 am. That will lead to a substantial UK citizens flying within Europe enjoy the same high improvement in safety across Europe. It is a good deal safety standards, regardless of where the airline is based. for UK passengers in today’s single market in air services. When they use any airline from any EU member state, The flight time limitation requirements are a package passengers will be protected by the same high standards of closely interrelated measures that address a number as those followed by UK airlines. of issues relating to fatigue, including work load, sleep and body clocks, in several different ways. Work load is This is also a good deal for UK airlines, which will no addressed through setting limits on the length of duty longer have to compete against other EU airlines that times. The more intensive the work load in terms of follow less stringent rules. It has been suggested that the take offs and landings, the lower the limit. Additionally, UK should consider opting out of some or all of the there are medium and long-term limits on duty hours to proposed rules or enhancing them. The hon. Member prevent cumulative fatigue. for Liverpool, Riverside raised the matter, but I have to say that this is not an option. We have checked, because Adequate sleep is ensured by the establishment of there has been a belief that we could add to the proposals minimum rest requirements. Body clock issues are addressed that EASA is bringing forward. However, the European by adjusting duty limits according to the time of day the Commission has once again confirmed categorically duty starts. There are additional limits if crews are not that no member state could do that. It is the package acclimatised to the local time zone. that is accepted. No member state can add on something I emphasise again that those requirements and limits if it wishes to and, fortunately, no member state can are closely interrelated. For their effectiveness to be take away anything, either—that is the other side of the properly understood, they need to be considered together coin—which some member states might be interested in as a package. doing. Limits are only one aspect of the new proposal. It is fair to say that the Transport Committee itself Airlines will also be required to put in place a number concluded that the legislation under which these provisions of new management processes, including flight time are made rules out the option of a separate UK regulatory specification schemes tailored to the type of operation regime or an add-on, but I accept that Committee being undertaken. Airlines will have to ensure that members will have wondered about that in the light of schedules are planned so that aircrews can operate other information that has been bandied around and safely in all circumstances. All aircrews, rostering staff been in circulation since the Committee produced its and their managers will have to undergo regular training report. in fatigue management. The training programme will I stress that the proposals are currently only an have to be approved by the CAA. opinion of the European safety regulator. The European Additionally, all airlines will be required under separate Commission has yet to issue its own legislative proposal legislation to have safety-management systems. Under and we will reserve our final judgment until we see it. the EASA proposals, those will have to have a specific We will not vote in favour of the regulation unless the fatigue risk-management element in certain circumstances. CAA advises us that it provides an appropriate level of The CAA will be responsible for approving and monitoring safety. airlines’ safety management systems and flight time I should like to say something about the use of specification schemes. Airlines will no longer be able to scientific evidence in developing the proposals, because rely solely on complying with fixed limits on flight several hon. Members have raised this matter. Some times. Instead, they will also need to demonstrate how have expressed concern about this. During the development they are managing crew duties to prevent the risk of of its proposals, EASA reviewed more than 50 scientific 245WH Flight Time Limitations22 NOVEMBER 2012 Flight Time Limitations 246WH

[Mr Simon Burns] as a result, an emergency EASA meeting was called. I was seeking confirmation or otherwise of whether that studies and employed three independent scientists to is so. review its proposals. It also took into account a large amount of operational data and experience across the Mr Burns: That is helpful, because I was genuinely EU. EASA provided, in the regulatory impact assessment confused. The advice that I had—I will check it, because published alongside its opinion, a detailed assessment it is at such variance with what the hon. Lady has been of the evidence and advice that it considered. told—is that we are not aware of any meeting that took The CAA gave this House, in its evidence to the place last week. We are aware of an EASA committee Transport Committee in February, a detailed account meeting in October at which the proposals were discussed, of the procedures followed and the evidence taken into and no member state raised any significant concerns account by both it and EASA. I will not repeat that about them. As I said, we will check that, and I will evidence here. The important thing is that I am satisfied ensure that she is informed of the results. with the CAA’s assurance—that view is shared by EASA Both the hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Poplar and by the CAA’s counterparts in other member states—that and Limehouse asked a number of questions arising a thorough, transparent process has been followed in from the recommendations of the Select Committee this case. report. As both of them will know, the Government The draft legislation imposes a legal obligation on have responded to those recommendations. The responses EASA to review the effectiveness of the rules three that we gave are still our responses, and we still believe years after they have come into force. EASA has also in them. I could go through them one by one, but I said that it plans to carry out further research in a suspect that Opposition Members in particular would number of areas, to help improve understanding of not want to hear the sound of my voice for quite that crew fatigue. The CAA will work closely with EASA to long. However, I can confirm, particularly on the questions ensure that this research is carried out effectively. raised by the hon. Gentleman, that our responses on all As I have said, we have yet to see a legislative proposal issues linked directly to the recommendations of the from the Commission. I repeat, to provide reassurance I Select Committee report are as valid today as when we hope, that we will reserve our final judgment until the published our response. I hope that is satisfactory. CAA has had the opportunity to review that proposal when it is produced. Jim Fitzpatrick: I certainly hear what the Minister is saying. In one or two of my comments, I was acknowledging the Government’s published response while seeking a Mrs Ellman: I feel reassured by some of the Minister’s bit more information. For example, as he says, the new statement, but on the scientific evidence, I wish to make regulations have not been introduced, so I was asking it clear that the Committee spoke to scientists involved what the time frame was for EASA coming forward, the in giving advice and there is concern about the current Commission considering regulations and national proposals. It may not be a unanimous decision, but consultation. Recognising what the Government have there certainly is concern. I ask the Minister to bear said in response to the Select Committee recommendations, that in mind as he continues to consider the issue. I was seeking elaboration on one or two points, not reiteration. I certainly do not expect the Minister to Mr Burns: I appreciate that. I will certainly bear it in read into the record the Government’s lengthy responses mind. However, from the evidence that I have been to the Select Committee recommendations. given and conversations that I have had with the CAA, I am confident that a thorough review of the 50 studies Mr Burns: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. has been done. I do not want to be flippant, but I The only downside of not doing so is that people will suspect that scientists can, at times, be a bit like economists, not have the opportunity to hear once again the wisdom in that they will have different views or will place of the Government’s responses to the excellent report emphasis differently on solutions to problems or issues, by the hon. Lady’s Committee. However, I accept what and that might be a part of what is behind the discussions he says. or conversations the hon. Lady has had. But that does not detract from my initial point that I am confident, He talked about the time scale for adoption. As I from the assurances that I have had, that the review of said, we are waiting for the Commission to introduce 50 independent scientific studies by independent scientists legislative proposals. We expect that the regulation adopting has been done thoroughly and properly. the implementing rules will come into force next summer, but will allow a transitional period of two years before I repeat that we have not yet seen the legislative the requirements become applicable. That is the best proposals from the Commission and we will reserve our advice I have at the moment. As he will appreciate, it is final judgment until the CAA has had the opportunity outside our control, but we assume that EASA and the to review those proposals and form a view. I hope that European Commission intend to stick as closely to that that is reassuring. timetable as possible. I shall answer questions in no particular order. I may The hon. Lady asked how the CAA will tackle the have misheard the hon. Lady and if I did I hope that she under-reporting of fatigue. I have a considerable amount will forgive me. I think she mentioned an EASA meeting of sympathy with her point, because I believe that the last week. Is that correct? problem is potentially serious if it is happening on the scale of the poll that she referred to. I do not cast Mrs Ellman: Yes. I was informed recently that there doubts on the poll, but we lack clear evidence of the was an EASA meeting last week and that a number of extent of the problem. However, as we said in our member states—not the UK—raised concerns and that, response to the Committee’s recommendation, the CAA 247WH Flight Time Limitations22 NOVEMBER 2012 Flight Time Limitations 248WH is investigating possible under-reporting. I understand report to national aviation authorities as part of an from what she said, conversations that I have had with open and transparent approach. The new EU implementing the British Airline Pilots Association and my rules governing the oversight of operators will come correspondence on the subject with constituents of into force later this year. The rules will give national mine that in certain cases, there may be an incentive for aviation authorities the power and responsibility to people to under-report for a variety of reasons. We monitor all aspects of the application and performance must change the culture. We need an open and transparent of any flight time limitation. system so that we know exactly what the level of the The Government share the Committee’s concern on problem is, if there is one, and how to minimise it. It the theoretical length of the flighty duty period. EASA would seem from the poll that the problem has persisted has acted on the UK’s advice and amended the proposal under the existing rules, never mind what some people to limit the combination of stand-by and flight duty say might happen under any changes. periods to a maximum of 16 hours, as I mentioned to the hon. Lady in an intervention during her comments. Jim Fitzpatrick: The Minister gave a good explanation I hope that goes some way to reassuring her. of the new reporting procedures and fatigue management To the best of knowledge, and looking at my notes, I systems that airlines will have to introduce. That is think I have covered the main points made by the hon. reassuring, because it is far more structured, but one Members for Liverpool, Riverside and for Poplar and point of the questions that my hon. Friend the Member Limehouse, as well as embracing the spirit of the comments for Liverpool, Riverside raised is this. Notwithstanding made by my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes that the airlines will compile their own data, how does South. In concluding, I thank the hon. Lady and her that compare with the confidential reporting systems that colleagues on the Transport Committee for their work exist at the moment, in which pilots can report directly and for the care that they took to produce an important to the CAA? Will those lines of communication still and interesting report. We considered it carefully before exist? It might be easier for a pilot to send a confidential responding. I have sought to reassure hon. Members e-mail or, more likely, a verbal report to the CAA if about more of the background, the Government’s attitude they want to tell somebody that they are worried. Telling and what we and the CAA have been doing. their employer could be entirely different; they might be I will conclude on this final point—made for the third worried about future employment, promotion prospects time—to ensure that people can be reassured, as I hope and so on. they can: we will wait for the publication of the proposals and the CAA’s final recommendations and views before Mr Burns: The hon. Gentleman makes an important we take any definitive action on this important issue. point. As he said, an individual would find it easier to The Government are as determined today as they were report directly to the CAA, so that brings more openness yesterday, and as the previous Government were, to and honesty to the reporting system. He is absolutely ensure that the safety of passengers and those working right, and that is why the system will continue. Individuals on aircraft and in the aviation industry is paramount. will continue to have the opportunity to make contact Resolved, That the sitting be now adjourned.— through that channel. (Mr Simon Burns.) The hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside talked about what happened to flights that reached the maximum 3.49 pm limit permitted under the proposals and the need to Sitting adjourned.

35WS Written Ministerial Statements22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS

fairness around the lending of securities, and better Written Ministerial alignment between pay and long-term performance for company directors and asset managers. Statements The Government response notes promising signs that market participants are responding to the challenge in Thursday 22 November 2012 each of these areas, but makes clear that more progress is required: delivering on this agenda will require a sustained commitment. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The response therefore makes clear the Government’s intention to publish an update, in summer 2014; setting out what further progress has been achieved by Kay Review Government and others, to consider Professor Kay’s directions for regulatory policy and to deliver his specific The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and recommendations. Skills (Vince Cable): I would like to inform the House that the Government are today publishing their response to the “Kay Review of UK Equity Markets and Long-Term Decision Making”. Copies of the response will be placed TREASURY in the Libraries of both Houses. In his final report, Professor John Kay concluded Banking Act 2009 that short-termism is a problem in UK equity markets, principally caused by a decline of trust and the presence of misaligned incentives in the investment chain. The The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark): report sets out a vision for reform of UK equity markets The Treasury has laid before the House of Commons a to ensure that they support long-term investment, report required under section 231 of the Banking Act constructive relationships between companies and in 2009 covering the period from 1 April 2012 to 30 September their investors, and sustainable value creation by British 2012. Copies of the document are available in the Vote companies. It has been widely welcomed by business Office and the Printed Paper Office. and the investment industry. The Government response welcomes the Kay report— accepting Professor Kay’s analysis and conclusions. It endorses 10 principles for equity markets to which CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT market practitioners, Government and regulatory authorities should have regard, and the report’s directions for market participants which follow from these principles. Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council The Government also commit to working with relevant regulatory authorities to explore further the Kay report’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, directions for regulatory policy, to identify to what Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): The Education, extent these directions are practical, what changes in Youth, Culture and Sport Council will take place in the law or in regulation might therefore be appropriate, Brussels on 26-27 November. The culture and audiovisual and how these can best be delivered. issues will be taken on 26 November and the sport The response sets out a number of steps the Government issues will be taken on 27 November. The deputy permanent are taking to deliver on the Kay report’s detailed representative to the EU, Shan Morgan, will represent recommendations, including: the UK at the culture and audiovisual and sport sections completing reform of corporate narrative reporting to be of the Council. higher quality, simpler, more relevant to users and more focused on forward-looking strategy; Culture and Audiovisual pursuing reforms to the EU transparency directive which The Council will be invited to adopt a revised partial will remove mandatory quarterly reporting; general approach on the proposal for a regulation promoting the revised edition of the stewardship code which establishing the creative Europe programme for 2014-20. emphasises that stewardship should encompass engagement The revised partial general approach incorporates the by investors on company strategy. text relating to the proposed new loan guarantee facility Many of the report’s recommendations are for market into the partial general approach which was agreed at participants—in particular companies and institutional the Council meeting in May. It does not include the investors. The Government agree that the necessary programme budget. changes in culture cannot simply be achieved through The UK will not be able to support the revised partial regulation, but rather through the development of good general approach. At present we are unable to support practice in the investment chain. The Government are the loan guarantee facility, as we need to consider this promoting Professor Kay’s good practice statements for in the context of the overall budget allocated to the company directors, asset managers and asset holders, as programme and in relation to the amount of funding the basis for industry-led standards of good practice. allocated to grant expenditure. These will not become The report’s recommendations, and the good practice clear until the negotiations on the multiannual financial statements, aim to deliver, among other things, more framework for 2014-20 have been completed. Moreover, collective action by institutional shareholders via the the revised partial general approach—like the previous establishment of an investors’ forum, better disclosure partial general approach, which the UK did not support— of costs in the investment chain, transparency and does not provide for selection decisions, i.e. decisions 37WS Written Ministerial Statements22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS about which projects will be awarded EU funding under WADA foundation board is the 38-member supreme the programme, to be subject to member state scrutiny decision-making body composed equally of representatives through the formal comitology arrangements. from the Olympic movement and Governments. The In the debate, we will make clear that the UK is able presidency will also provide feedback to the Council to support other elements of the revised partial general from the recent WADA meetings that took place in approach, and also that we will consider our position Montreal on 17-18 November 2012. on the loan guarantee facility in the light of developments The Council is expected to adopt conclusions on in the negotiations on the multiannual financial framework. promoting health-enhancing physical activity (HEPA). The Council will receive a progress report from the The conclusions encourage member states to promote presidency on the Commission’s proposal for a decision health-enhancing physical activity acknowledging the establishing the European capitals of culture action for EU’s physical activity guidelines. They also promote 2020-33. This action will follow on from the current closer co-operation between the sport and health sectors; European capitals of culture action which ends in 2019. awareness raising on the benefits of adopting a more The proposal is being discussed in the Council working active lifestyle; and physical activity in supporting active group, and the presidency will inform the Council of ageing. The conclusions are based on the work of the the progress made to date and the key issues which EU expert group on sport, health and participation and delegations have identified. are, in the main, in line with UK policy. The UK will therefore support the adoption of these conclusions. The Council is expected to adopt conclusions on cultural governance. These conclusions note the importance Related to the HEPA conclusions, the presidency has of research and statistics in cultural governance and in prepared a discussion paper on an annual European developing policies and strategies for the cultural and week of sport as the basis for a policy debate. The paper creative sectors. considers the challenges of having such a European week and how youngsters can be encouraged to participate They also identify key issues for future work and in physical activity rather than playing sedentary virtual propose some actions for the Commission and member games. The debate is framed around three questions. states to maximise the use and benefits of current work in these areas. The conclusions take account of UK The UK will highlight how the number of similarly interests and concerns and we will support their adoption. themed initiatives has lessened their overall impact. For the EU to add value in this area it would need to have a The Council is also expected to adopt conclusions on different concept, possibly engaging civil society and a European strategy for a better internet for children commercial partners. In addition, rather than trying to and hold a policy debate on the internet: a better and create a behavioural shift from virtual games, physical safer place for children as a result of a successful activity initiatives should embrace new technology. interplay between Government and industry. The UK Any Other Business will support the adoption of the conclusions, as in the main they are in line with UK policies in respect of The presidency may present an update on the proposal online child safety. The debate is framed around two for a regulation establishing the Europe for citizens questions. Here, the UK will report on the work of the programme 2014-20. This programme will follow on UK Council for Child Internet Safety and we will from an existing EU programme. The proposal is currently propose that there should be more effective discussion with the European Parliament, which must give its and co-ordination of member state initiatives and those assent before the regulation can be adopted by the proposed in the Commission’s communication on a Council. better internet for children. Targeted discussion and The French delegation will present a note expressing co-ordination could assist the creation of a true pan- concerns about the Commission’s draft communication European digital single market for children. on state aid for films and other audiovisual work. While the UK recognises the concerns of other member states, Sport we welcome the Commission’s revisions to the previous The Council is expected to adopt conclusions on draft, particularly the confirmation that our film tax strengthening the evidence base for sport policy-making. relief scheme does not restrict the free movement of This encourages member states to continue to develop goods and services in Europe. We urge a speedy resolution sport satellite accounts as a means to strengthen evidence- of outstanding issues to ensure that the film industry based sport policies and to promote the role of sport as across the EU remains strong and healthy. a driver in areas such as economic growth. The UK The Slovak and French delegations will present already actively participates in this strand of work and information on Kosice and Marseille-Provence which will therefore support the adoption of these conclusions. have been designated as the European capitals of culture The Council is also expected to adopt conclusions on for 2013. establishing a strategy to combat the manipulation of Finally, the Irish delegation will inform the Council sport results. These are based on recommendations of the work programme and priorities for their forthcoming produced by the EU expert group on good governance presidency of the Council. in sport which set out the relationship, roles and responsibilities needed between member states, the sports HEALTH movement, betting operators and regulators. The UK is content with these conclusions as they are broadly in Warm Homes Healthy People line with our approach in tackling match-fixing and we will support their adoption. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health The Council is also expected to agree the three chosen (Anna Soubry): This is to inform the House of the candidates to be the EU representatives to the World award of funds from the warm homes healthy people Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) foundation board. The fund (WHHP) 2012. 39WS Written Ministerial Statements22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS

On 13 September 2012, the Department issued a The second will allow the IPCC to investigate matters which circular to upper-tier local authorities in England inviting were previously subject to investigation by its predecessor, them to apply for funding from the WHHP. the Police Complaints Authority. This power will only be exercised where the IPCC is satisfied that the exceptional The aim of the WHHP fund of £20 million is to circumstances of the case justify its use. support local authorities and their partners in reducing These enhancements are being made at the request of the levels of death and morbidity in England due to the IPCC and will ensure they can investigate the conduct cold housing in the winter of 2012. With this funding, of the police at Hillsborough in depth and without local authorities and their partner organisations are delay. The IPCC has indicated that as part of its ongoing encouraged to undertake a variety of projects to support investigations, it will likely be in a position to call a range of national and local initiatives. witnesses early in 2013. The Department, along with other Government Departments, already provides a range of advice and support to help individuals, families and carers to prepare Immigration Rules for cold weather, including the “Cold Weather Plan for England 2012” published on 26 October 2012, which is available at: www.dh.gov.uk/health/2012/10/cwp-2012/. The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): My The evidence that the annual cost to the NHS due to right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is today laying cold private housing alone is over £850 million is compelling. before the House a statement of changes in immigration More work is underway to improve the health and rules. well-being of the most vulnerable, and the WHHP In April last year the Government made substantial provides support to help vulnerable people deal with changes to the tier 1 (Entrepreneur) and tier 1 (Investor) winter weather. categories. The Home Office has been reviewing how A list of successful proposals detailing recipients of effective these changes have been. As a result, a number the funding from the warm homes healthy people fund of minor changes are being made to these two categories, for this year has been placed in the Library. Copies are including: available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to Providing for entrepreneurs with funding from Departments noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. We are able of devolved Administrations; to provide funding to 149 out of 162 local authority Lowering the English language requirement for entrepreneurs proposals. in response to concerns that the high requirement was a Because of the success of the WHHP fund last year, possible deterrent to potentially successful businesses; we were oversubscribed with suggested proposals for Restricting the ability of students to switch into the entrepreneur 2012, and have had to reduce the funds provided across route, due to concerns about abuse; the board by 19% to stay within the limit of the total Restricting investors from working as professional sportspeople, fund. to prevent them circumventing the sports governing body endorsement needed in the dedicated routes for sportspeople; The process is similar to that of last year’s fund so Additional controls to ensure entrepreneurs and investors that funding goes to local authorities quickly, in time to genuinely have access to the funds they claim they do; make a real difference this winter. Proposals display Providing for investors’ leave to be curtailed if they fail to co-operation with local partners, from the voluntary maintain the required level of investment; and and community sector, who have been fully engaged in the bidding process, as they will be with the delivery of Clarifications to confirm that points will not be awarded for investments against which applicants have taken out loans, the projects. or investments that are held in offshore custody. I am making minor changes to tier 2, the route for skilled workers with a job offer. These include supporting HOME DEPARTMENT business by allowing very senior intra-company transferees to extend their stay in the UK for up to nine years Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill (other transferees are restricted to a maximum of five years); making provision for barristers to apply in tier 2; and making the operation of “cooling off periods” The Secretary of State for the Home Department more flexible for migrants who leave the UK before (Mrs Theresa May): Last month I made a commitment their leave expires. to ensure that the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has the powers and resources it I am setting the annual allocations of places for needs to carry out its investigations into the Hillsborough participating countries and territories in the tier 5 (Youth disaster. This commitment was made in the knowledge Mobility Scheme), and widening the definition of a that the families of the victims and the survivors have training programme under the tier 5 Government waited 23 years for the truth about the disaster to be Authorised Exchange category to include training by revealed. HM armed forces and UK emergency services. I have today published fast-track legislation that will I am making changes to the international agreement enable the IPCC to conduct a thorough, transparent sub-category of tier 5, to make more specific provision and exhaustive investigation into the Hillsborough disaster. for contractual service suppliers (who do not otherwise have a UK presence) seeking admission under the relevant This legislation will provide the IPCC with two new commitments in certain international trade agreements powers: to which the UK is a party. The first is to compel individuals currently serving with the police or certain other policing bodies, to attend an interview Applicants for settlement on the basis of work or in relation to any investigation managed or undertaken by economic activity in the UK must complete a continuous the IPCC in the capacity of a witness. period of lawful residence in the UK—usually five 41WS Written Ministerial Statements22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS years with exceptions for some tier 1 investors and JUSTICE entrepreneurs and some highly skilled migrant programme migrants. Although it has been our practice to permit some absences from the UK during this period, the Data Protection length of the short absences has not been specified. I am making changes to the Immigration Rules for indefinite leave to remain for work permit and other The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice pre-points based system employment, for businesspersons, (Mrs Helen Grant): Today, I will publish the Government’s innovators, investors, self-employed persons, writers, impact assessment of the European Commission’s proposals artists and composers, those here on the basis of UK for data protection. ancestry and for tier 1 general, tier 2 general, sportsperson In January this year, the European Commission published and Minister of religion migrants and retired persons of a draft data protection regulation which will impact on independent means. These changes clarify that absences business, the public sector and charities and a draft data of up to 180 days in a 12-month period are permitted, protection directive, covering the police and judicial provided the absence is for a reason that is consistent sector. Coupled with the publication, the European with the migrant’s purpose of stay in the UK or for Commission published its impact assessment of the serious or compelling reasons. proposals. I am also making minor changes to the tier 4 immigration The Commission’s impact assessment estimates that rules on students, including allowing students to start the new regime would bring an administrative saving to work on a business idea or as a doctor or dentist in the EU, totalling ¤2.3 billion each year. As the analysis training as soon as they have submitted an appropriate published today shows, the Government disagree with application; removing an avenue used by applicants to this assessment and believe that the burdens the proposed circumvent our rules that ensure an applicant has sufficient regulation would impose far outweigh the net benefit funds to cover their course and maintenance; and extending estimated by the Commission. For the UK alone the the period of the interim limit where educational institutions annual net cost of the proposal (in 2012-13 earnings that have not achieved both a satisfactory educational terms) is estimated to be between £100 million and oversight inspection from a specified body and highly £360 million a year. trusted sponsor status are subject to an interim limit on The Government’s view is that the Commission both the number of international students that can be recruited. overestimates the benefits achieved through harmonised I am making a number of changes to the immigration EU data protection law and fails to address the full rules on family and private life. These mainly reflect costs and unintended consequences of its own proposals, experience of the operation of the new rules since they by only considering administrative costs. Our analysis were implemented on 9 July 2012 and will help to make addresses some of these failings by considering in full those rules as clear and comprehensive as possible. The the impact of the proposed regime, including the additional changes mainly concern the child and parent provisions costs for businesses, including small and medium enterprises, of the rules and the specified evidence required to meet the additional costs to supervisory authorities, conducting the financial requirements of the rides. data protection impact assessments and complying with In addition to these changes, I am also creating a other new obligations. more robust, clear and transparent criminality framework This impact assessment focuses on the proposed against which immigration applications will be assessed. regulation. Under article 6a of the UK’s Title V opt-in At present, there are few specific thresholds in the protocol we believe that the proposed directive will have immigration rules. Much is left to discretion, except at a limited effect on the United Kingdom, in that it will the settlement stage where an unspent conviction results only apply to data being processed under an EU instrument in mandatory refusal. There is some advantage to this that binds the UK. Therefore, criminal justice system flexibility in that it allows discretion to deal with hard agencies within the UK will avoid being bound by the cases, but it also means that there is a lack of consistency directive when processing personal data outside of such in dealing with offences. These changes will make it provisions. clearer about the level of offending that will lead to It is worth noting that organisations which process refusal. criminal justice data will also process personal data The consequential changes will also: covered under the regulation and so some of the monetised change the periods before a deportation order will normally costs and benefits stemming from the regulation could be revoked; be shared (for example, the cost of designating a data introduce a limited leave “route”for foreign and Commonwealth protection officer). The directive would require transposition ex-armed forces personnel who fail to qualify for indefinite into UK law, at which point domestic legislation would leave or citizenship because of a relatively minor conviction; also be needed to cover that processing purely internal introduce a re-entry ban of five years for any offender who to the UK. There is therefore a degree of flexibility for leaves the UK as a requirement of a conditional caution; member states in determining how the EU-level rules in and the proposed directive would be transposed and a fuller introduce a discretionary power to curtail leave where a assessment of the costs and benefits specific to the person commits an offence within the first six months of proposed directive will be produced nearer the point of entering the UK. transposition. Finally, I am also making a number of minor technical The UK Government are seriously concerned about changes, corrections and updates to lists contained in the potential economic impact of the proposed data the Immigration Rules. Details of these are set out protection regulation. At a time when the eurozone in the explanatory memorandum being laid today to appears to be slipping back into recession, reducing the accompany the changes. regulatory burden to secure growth must be the priority 43WS Written Ministerial Statements22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 44WS for all member states. It is difficult therefore to justify The legislative changes proposed in this consultation the extra red tape and tick-box compliance that the would apply to the Road Traffic Act 1988. Subject to proposal represents. For example, we estimate the costs the outcome of the consultation, we intend to legislate for UK small businesses of simply demonstrating as soon as parliamentary time allows on the matters compliance with the new rules to be around £10 million covered in points 1 to 4 above. (in 2012-13 earnings terms) every year. A further serious Other proposals in the consultation issue is the possibility of stifling innovation through The Road Traffic Act 1998 (and other parallel legislative prescriptive and inflexible rules on gaining individuals’ provisions) apply similar measures to the drink-drive consent and informing them about the processing of offence to railways, shipping and aviation. The consultation their personal data, while offering people an unworkable seeks views about whether any changes here should also “right to be forgotten”. Instead the focus must be on apply to these other transport sectors. achieving the right ends: meeting people’s rightful expectation that their personal information is used lawfully, The consultation explores how further use can be proportionately and securely, while being able to offer made of vehicle forfeiture powers to get the most dangerous them the goods and services they want and need. and irresponsible motorists off the road including those Negotiations on the proposals are ongoing in Brussels. who drive while under the influence of alcohol. With the evidence set out in the impact assessment The consultation document explores the scope for published today, the UK Government will continue to further research into the processes for reassessing whether push for a lasting data protection framework that is a driver banned due to drink-driving should regain proportionate, and that minimises the burdens on businesses their licence. The research would develop the evidence and other organisations, while giving individuals real base for longer-term solutions in this area. protection in how their personal data is processed. The consultation seeks views about the way forward Copies of the impact assessment will be placed in the on three as yet un-commenced legislative provisions in Libraries of both Houses and on the Department’s the Road Safety Act 2006 relating to the training and website at, www.justice.gov.uk. punishment of certain road traffic offenders. In line with the revised guidance on consultations, we TRANSPORT propose to shorten the consultation time for this to just over five weeks. We are particularly interested in the Drink and Drug Driving views of the health care sector on points 3 and 4 and are planning to meet representative bodies for medical professionals in early December. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport 1 Report of the Review of Drink and Drug Driving Law: Sir Peter (Stephen Hammond): The Government have today launched North CBE, QC (June 2010) a consultation on some enforcement issues relating to http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100921035225/ the current legislation on drink and drug-driving. This http://northreview.independent.gov.uk/docs/NorthReview- consultation encompasses the legislative changes the Report.pdf. Government proposed in their response of March 2011 2 Report of the Transport Select Committee: Drink and Drug to the reports by Sir Peter North1 and the Transport Driving Law (November 2010) http://www.publications. Select Committee2 on drink and drug-driving (“the parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmtran/460/46002.htm. Government’s response”3). The changes covered in this 3 The Government’s Response to the Reports by Sir Peter North consultation should not be confused with the legislation CBE QC and the Transport Select Committee on Drink and related to driving with a specified impairing drug in the Drug Driving: Command Paper 8050 (March 2011) at: http:// body, which is currently passing through Parliament in www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm80/8050/8050.pdf. the Crime and Courts Bill. The consultation on enforcement of drink-driving will cover four potential legislative changes: WORK AND PENSIONS 1) Withdrawal of the right people have to replace their breath alcohol specimens with either a specimen of blood or specimens of urine in cases where the lower of the two “Reinvigorating Workplace Pensions” breath readings provided does not exceed 50 microgrammes (meg) of alcohol per 100 millilitres (ml) of breath (known commonly as the “statutory option”). The Minister of State, Department for Work and 2) Removing the requirement for preliminary testing where Pensions (Steve Webb): Later today I will publish the evidential testing is undertaken away from a police station. Command Paper “Reinvigorating Workplace Pensions”. This would mean that a preliminary breath test would not Building on our coalition agreement commitment, this have to be taken in addition to two evidential breath tests, when mobile evidential breath testing devices are used away document sets out our strategy for putting in place from a police station. While such devices are not yet available, arrangements that result in the provision of high quality it is expected that they may be type-approved within the next pension schemes people can trust and take confidence two years. in. 3) Streamlining the procedure for testing drink-drivers and We need pensions that are affordable for employers drug-impaired drivers in hospital so that a wider range of and attractive to employees to ensure that automatic registered health care professionals are allowed to take evidential blood specimens. This would make it consistent with other enrolment succeeds for the millions of new savers it policing provisions. creates. Our reinvigoration strategy covers a broad set 4) The consultation asks for views on whether a health care of issues from how we increase the amount people are professional other than a doctor should be able to assess saving to how we ensure those savings go into high whether a driver may be under the influence of a drug prior quality schemes that give people the income they expect to evidential testing. in retirement. 45WS Written Ministerial Statements22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 46WS

Research shows people want more certainty in pension Part of the reason people lack confidence in pensions saving. We have responded by encouraging more risk- is they find them confusing, so we are looking at ways sharing through the development of defined ambition to increase engagement through improved information, pensions, outlined in this plan, and are working closely and are considering putting in place simple mechanisms with the pensions industry to encourage innovation and to support employers and consumers with scheme choice. explore possible options and models. We will be working closely with consumers, employers Promoting scheme quality is also critical. Savers need and the pensions industry as we develop the plans set to be confident they are putting their money into stable, out in this strategy. well-run, customer-focused schemes that will give them the income they expect in retirement. This strategy sets The document will also be available later today on out the issues we are examining to achieve this, such as the Department’s website. scale, charges and the regulatory regime. 535W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 536W

in partnership to improve bus services for passengers. Written Answers to This includes the bi-annual Bus Partnership Forum I chair. The Department for Transport is working with Questions the Office of Fair Trading in providing a forum for local transport authorities and bus companies to consider the competition implications of partnership Thursday 22 November 2012 working. Bus Services: EU Action

TRANSPORT Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he intends to take to ensure that Aviation: India EU Regulation 181/2011 is enforced with respect to the provision of travel information to bus and coach Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for passengers throughout their journeys; and if he will Transport what assessment he has made of the contribution make a statement. [129883] to the UK economy of direct flights between the UK and the cities of Ahmedabad, Bangalore and Chennai. Norman Baker: Article 28 of the EU regulation requires [129537] that each member state shall designate a new or existing body or bodies responsible for the enforcement of the Mr Simon Burns: The Government do not make regulation and that this enforcement body shall take the assessments of the value to the UK of specific air measures necessary to ensure compliance with the routes. The overall objective for the UK’s air services regulation. negotiations is to seek to put in place liberal arrangements so that airlines have the freedom to operate services Given their existing role in regulating the system of based on their own commercial decisions and assessment bus operator licensing, we are proposing that independently of market demand. appointed Traffic Commissioners will be designated as the national enforcement body in respect of bus/coach There are no restrictions on the routes that may be operators and terminal managing bodies and therefore operated between the UK and India but passenger responsible for the enforcement of all relevant provisions services on UK-Delhi and UK-Mumbai are limited to of the EU regulation, including article 24 on the right 56 services per week by the airlines of each side, to travel information. services on UK-Chennai and UK-Bangalore are limited to 14 services per week by the airlines of each This approach was outlined in our recent public side and services between any other city pair are limited consultation exercise on the application of EU to seven services per week by the airlines of each side. Regulation 181/2011 which closed on 11 October 2012. Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency: Post Offices Biofuels Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many representations he has received in Transport if he will bring forward his review of the favour of ensuring the availability of Driver and Vehicle double certificate scheme and support provided under Licensing Authority services at post offices. [129365] the Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation for sustainable biofuels made from waste cooking oil. [129224] Stephen Hammond: The Department has received two parliamentary questions and 495 letters from hon. Norman Baker: We have committed to undertake a Members and Members of the devolved Administrations review in 2013 of the double certificate scheme and in favour of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency support provided under the Renewable Transport Fuels maintaining services at the post offices. In addition, Obligation (RTFO). In 2013 we will have completed the 62 letters from members of the public and nearly 2,000 first full obligation year under an amended RTFO. campaign postcards have been received. This is the right time for the review as we will have the data necessary to help us consider what the effect of Electric Vehicles: Safety double certification has been. I have asked for the review to be progressed as soon as data are available. It Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for is too soon to determine the longer term trend of Transport (1) what steps his Department is taking to certificate prices which are influenced by a range of protect road users from the risk of collision with quiet factors. electric and hybrid cars; and if he will make a statement; Bus Services [129576] (2) what representations he has received on legislative Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport proposals for the mandatory installation of acoustic what recent discussions he has had with (a) the Office vehicle alert systems on electric and hybrid cars; and if of Fair Trading, (b) local transport authorities and (c) he will make a statement. [129577] bus companies regarding partnership working on local bus services. [129398] Norman Baker: The Department for Transport is working with international bodies to develop recommendations Norman Baker: I regularly meet with representatives on adding artificial sound to quiet vehicles. These of local transport authorities and bus companies and recommendations are expected to specify the characteristic impress upon them the importance of working together of the sound and the vehicle speed up to which the 537W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 538W sound should be generated, so that levels from electric Mr Simon Burns: The Department uses data from the and conventional vehicles are similar. The Department Civil Aviation Authority Passenger Survey to understand recently published a research report on the audibility of the characteristics and routes of passengers at Heathrow electric vehicles which can be found at the following airport. The number of passengers surveyed during the link: night quota period is very small and would not provide http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/assessing-the-perceived- a reliable estimate of the total number of passengers safety-risk-from-quiet-electric-and-hybrid-vehicles/PPR525- who are UK resident or non-UK resident travelling at assessing-the-perceived-safety-risk-from-quiet-electric-and- that time. hybrid-vehicles.pdf I have met with Guide Dogs and RNIB to discuss High Speed 2 Railway Line adding artificial sound to electric and hybrid electric vehicles. The Department has also received correspondence Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport requesting the mandatory fitment of added sound devices, with reference to the speech given by the Prime Minister most recently from Guide Dogs. However, if such systems to the CBI on 19 November 2012, whether he intends to were mandatory, we will need to ensure that fitment is (a) reduce and (b) cancel planned consultations by his cost-effective, and that while assisting the visually impaired Department or HS2 Ltd in the next two years. [129485] road users does not add to general sound pollution that is damaging to health. Mr Simon Burns: The Government remains committed to its decision to proceed with HS2, the most significant Heathrow Airport transport infrastructure project in the UK since the building of the motorways. We also understand the significant impacts that will come with its construction Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for and want to ensure that the views of those affected are Transport what information his Department holds on fully considered in the development of our proposals the proportion of passengers arriving at Heathrow who and subsequent decisions. transfer to (a) short-haul and (b) long-haul routes. As such, the forthcoming consultations on HS2 are [129212] being planned in line with the Government’s new Consultation Principles and will include the interim Mr Simon Burns: Information on the characteristics compensation arrangements for property owners affected and routes of passengers using Heathrow airport is by Phase 2, a draft Environmental Statement for Phase available from the Civil Aviation Authority Passenger 1 and the preferred route for Phase 2. Survey. Based on the 2011 survey, it is estimated that approximately 15% of passengers arriving at Heathrow London Airports in 2011 transferred onto a short-haul flight and 18% transferred onto a long-haul flight. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he intends to bring forward proposals Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for to amend or repeal grandfather rights of airport slots at Transport how many (a) business and (b) tourist slot co-ordinated airports serving London. [129447] passengers arrived at London Heathrow Airport in the last year for which figures are available. [129386] Mr Simon Burns: The Government do not have any plans to amend or repeal the so called grandfather Mr Simon Burns: Based on data from the Civil Aviation rights principle in relation to the allocation of airport Authority Passenger Survey, it is estimated that slots at slot co-ordinated airports serving London. The approximately 11 million business passengers arrived at allocation of slots at slot co-ordinated airports in UK is Heathrow in 2011 and 24 million passengers who were governed by EU law. travelling for leisure purposes, including visiting friends and relatives. Maritime and Coastguard Agency

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Transport how many (a) terminating and (b) transfer how much he estimates will be spent on the development passengers arrived at London Heathrow Airport on event being organised for staff of the Maritime and night quota period flights in the last year for which Coastguard Agency in December 2012. [129316] figures are available. [129387] Stephen Hammond: The Maritime and Coastguard Mr Simon Burns: The Department uses data from the Agency estimates the cost of its development event will Civil Aviation Authority Passenger Survey to understand be around £56,000. That is the equivalent of around the characteristics and routes of passengers at Heathrow £103 per delegate per day and includes all meals and airport. The number of passengers surveyed during the accommodation costs. The development event will provide night quota period is very small and would not provide delegates with leadership skills training and coaching in a reliable estimate of the total number of passengers line with the principles set out in the Civil Service who are terminating or transferring at that time. Reform Plan.

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Cars Transport how many (a) UK resident and (b) non-UK resident passengers arrived at London Heathrow Airport Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport on night quota period flights in the last year for which what the (a) make, (b) model, (c) year of manufacture figures are available. [129388] and (d) carbon emissions in grammes per kilometre is 539W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 540W of each vehicle provided by the Government Car Service Stephen Hammond: The following table lists the main to each Government department. [129563] departmental pool cars provided to each Department through service level agreements.

Department Make Model Year of manufacture CO2 g/km Cabinet Office Jaguar XJ 2011 189 Toyota Avensis 2012 165 Business Innovation and Skills Toyota Avensis 2012 165 Communities and Local Government Land Rover Discovery 2012 230 Toyota Avensis 2012 165 Environment and Climate Change Toyota Prius—Plug in hybrid 2010 59 Environment Food and Rural Affairs Land Rover Discovery 2012 230 Education Jaguar XJ 2011 189 Transport Land Rover Discovery 2012 230 Toyota Avensis 2012 165 Health Jaguar XJ 2012 189 HM Treasury Land Rover Discovery 2012 230 Toyota Avensis 2012 165 Home Office Toyota Avensis 2012 165 Attorney-General’s Office Jaguar XJ 2011 189 Ministry of Justice Jaguar XJ 2011 189 Northern Ireland Office Toyota Avensis 2012 165 Wales Office Jaguar XJ 2011 189 Culture, Media and Sport Toyota Avensis 2012 165

Pay West Coast procurement competition. These are expected to be published by the NAO in their report on the Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport termination of this procurement competition in due how many employees in his Department are paid more course. than (a) £80,000 and (b) £100,000. [129346] Roads: Shrewsbury Norman Baker: The number of employees in the Department for Transport paid more than (a) £80,000 Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) £100,000 since May 2010 is shown in the Transport how much his Department spent on roads in following table: Shrewsbury and Atcham constituency in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011. [129534] 2010 2011 2012

£80,000 to 69 67 63 Norman Baker: The Department for Transport provides £99,999 funding to local authorities, which can be used for >£100,000 47 33 30 roads, through the highways maintenance and integrated transport block grants. This funding is not ring-fenced Railways: Franchises and allows authorities, including Shropshire County Council, who are responsible for the local road network Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for within the Shrewsbury and Atcham constituency, the Transport what costs have been incurred by his Department freedom to develop and implement solutions which best and its agencies in the franchising and tendering of suit their priorities. passenger rail services since 1994. [129409] The following table highlights the funding the Department for Transport has allocated in (a) 2010 and Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not been able (b) 2011 to Shropshire County Council, as local highway to capture precise historic costs by franchise and tendering authority and also shows how much the Highways of rail services. Agency, who are responsible for the motorway and In the past, when a rail service has been tendered, strategic road network, has spent within the constituency permanent staff members have been seconded to work on highways maintenance schemes. on this project for its duration and return to other duties following its completion. These members of staff 2010/11 2011/12 Funding Stream £m £m came from many parts of the Department (e.g. Procurement, Rail Commercial, Franchise Specification, Integrated Transport Block (Shropshire 2.869 1.855 Legal, and Finance) and their costs were captured County Council) within their substantive areas of work and have not Local Highways Maintenance Block 15.279 13.518 been separated by project. (Shropshire County Council) Additional Funding for Potholes 1.517 3.616 Over the last few weeks the Department has captured (Shropshire County Council) its internal and external costs incurred on the InterCity 541W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 542W

As part of the National Stations Improvement 2010/11 2011/12 Funding Stream £m £m Programme (NSIP), a new waiting room and customer help desk on the island platform will be delivered during Revenue Detrunking (Shropshire County 0.711 0 2013 at an estimated cost of £0.25m. Council) Highways Agency Maintenance 0.545 0.942 World War II: Anniversaries expenditure (within Shrewsbury and Atcham constituency) Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans his Department has to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Battle of the Roads: Snow and Ice Atlantic in 2013. [128614]

Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Hammond: I refer the hon. Member to the Transport what his latest assessment is of the potential reply given by the Minister of State for Defence Personnel, resilience of the UK to adverse weather in terms of Welfare and Veterans, my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois), on 21 November reserves of road salt over the winter period. [129562] 2012, Official Report, column 498W. Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has worked with local and national partners to improve CABINET OFFICE winter resilience, ensuring that that this country entered Crime the winter season well prepared. Following a survey conducted by the Department at Mr Ruffley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the end of October 2012, the total level of road salt Office how many (a) car thefts, (b) burglaries and (c) stock being held in Great Britain is estimated to be 2.7 violent crimes were reported in (i) Suffolk and (ii) million tonnes, including national strategic road salt England and Wales in each of the last five years. stockpiles. This is a good level of resilience but we are [129242] not complacent. That is why we continue to work closely with highway authorities to monitor road salt Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the stocks and recently reminded authorities about guidance responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have to enable them to make the best use of their salt asked the authority to reply. supplies. Letter from Glen Watson, dated November 2012: Shrewsbury Station As Director General for the Office for National Statistics (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question. Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for The two main sources of crime statistics are police recorded Transport what funds from the public purse have been crime and the Crime Survey for England and Wales. The preferred source of crime data at police force area is police recorded crime. spent on Shrewsbury railway station in (a) 2010 and Police recorded crime figures are provided for these crime types (b) 2011. [129533] for the last five financial years (April to March) for Suffolk police force area and for England and Wales. Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has These figures have been published by ONS and the latest year’s not directly funded any work from the public purse at data are available in tables accompanying the quarterly crime Shrewsbury railway station in either 2010 or 2011. statistics published in July 2012. This statistical bulletin is available However, Network Rail and Arriva Trains Wales spent on the ONS website here: a total of £1.06m on repairs and renewals at the station http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/ during the financial years 2009/10 to 2011/12. period-ending-march-2012/index.html

Recorded crime for selected offences in Suffolk and England and Wales, 2007-08 to 2011-12 Number of recorded incidents Violence against Burglary in a the person Burglary in a building other Theft of a motor offences Total burglary dwelling than a dwelling vehicle

Suffolk 2007-08 9,413 5,060 1,762 3,298 1,238 2008-09 9,434 4,658 1,650 3,008 908 2009-10 10,117 5,341 1,889 3,452 829 2010-11 10,190 5,353 2,006 3,347 785 2011-12 10,167 5,159 1,967 3,192 746

England and Wales 2007-08 944,630 583,714 280,700 303,014 169,558 2008-09 887,213 581,587 284,434 297,153 146,913 2009-10 871,419 540,649 268,610 272,039 117,687 2010-11 807,566 522,681 258,163 264,518 105,926 2011-12 749,774 501,052 245,316 255,736 91,841 543W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 544W

Crime: Yorkshire and the Humber Letter from Glen Watson, dated November 2012: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question Office how many incidents of violence against a person asking for the number of incidents of violence against the person, there have been for each type of offence in (a) Houghton criminal damage and drug offences in (a) Houghton and Sunderland and Sunderland South constituency and (b) Northumbria South constituency and (b) Northumbria in each of the last five in each of the last five years; how many drug offences years. (129255) there were in (i) Houghton and Sunderland South Police recorded crime figures are provided for the last five constituency and (ii) Northumbria in each of the last financial years (April to March) for Northumbria police force five year by the nature of the offence; and how many area and Sunderland local authority area. Crime data are not instances of criminal damage there were in (A) Houghton available at parliamentary constituency level so figures for Sunderland and Sunderland South constituency and (B) Northumbria local authority area are given in place of Houghton and Sunderland in each of the last five years. [129255] South constituency. The two main sources of crime statistics are police recorded Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the crime and the Crime Survey for England and Wales. The preferred responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have source of crime data at local authority and police force area is asked the authority to reply. police recorded crime.

Sunderland local authority 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

Violence against the person 4,591 4,556 4,027 3,631 3,114 With injury 2,778 2,663 2,296 2,023 1,572 Without injury 1,813 1,893 1,731 1,608 1,542

Drug offences 873 1,202 1,060 1,144 1,110

Criminal damage 6,841 6,177 5,192 4,465 3,822

Northumbria police force area 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

Violence against the person 19,545 19,147 16,837 15,056 12,862 With injury 11,033 10,488 8,930 7,914 6,510 Without injury 8,512 8,659 7,907 7,142 6,352

Drug offences 4,592 5,166 4,714 5,002 5,385

Criminal damage 29,758 27,178 22,551 18,240 15,127

These data have been published by ONS and are available from representation: cheque, plastic card and online bank accounts”. the ‘Recorded crime data at local authority level from 2002/03’ The number of these offences recorded by the police for the last and ‘Recorded crime data at police force area level from 2002/03’ three financial years can be found in the table below. tables available here: Number of offences of fraud by false representation: cheque, plastic http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference- card and online bank accounts recorded by the police in England and tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-274949 Wales Fraud: Credit Cards Financial year Number of offences

Mr Ruffley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 2009-10 27,148 Office how many recorded offences of credit card fraud 2010-11 24,942 there were in each of the last three years; what the 2011-12 22,694 estimated cost was of those offences; and what proportion Source: of those offences resulted in a conviction. [129248] Police Recorded Crime, Home Office. These data have previously been published by the ONS in Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Appendix Table A4 released alongside the quarterly release of National Statistics on crime. The link to the appendix tables can responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have be found on the ONS website here: asked the authority to reply. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/ Letter from Glen Watson: period-ending-march-2012/stb-crime-stats-end-march- As Director General for the Office for National Statistics 2012.html (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking how many recorded offences of credit card fraud there The ONS have not estimated the cost of these offences but do were in each of the last three years; what the estimated cost was of publish information for plastic card fraud losses from the UK those offences; and what proportion of those offences resulted in Cards Association in the quarterly crime statistics publications to a conviction. (129248) give a fuller picture of crime: In the police recorded crime series for England and Wales, http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/ credit card fraud is not separately identifiable as such crimes will period-ending-june-2012/stb-crime-in-england-and-wales-- be recorded within the broader offence group of “Fraud by false year-ending-june-2012.html#tab-Fraud 545W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 546W

Police recorded crime figures for Scotland are published at: Letter from Glen Watson, dated November 2012: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Crime- As Director General for the Office for National Statistics Justice and data for Northern Ireland are published at: (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question http://www.psni.police.uk/index/updates/updates_statistics/ asking how many people were (a) injured and (b) killed as a result update_crime_statistics.htm of knife crime offences in (i) Suffolk, (ii) Bedfordshire, (iii) Fraud offences are known to be under reported to the police, Cambridgeshire, (iv) Essex, (v) Hertfordshire and (vi) Norfolk in so the ONS have recently started publishing new data sources on each of the last three years. (129251) fraud in the quarterly crime statistics publications. Data from the The Office for National Statistics publishes data on the number National Fraud Intelligence Bureau are included in ONS crime of offences recorded by the police involving a knife or sharp statistics publications, and provide an estimate of the number of instrument, for selected violent and sexual offence types. Knives banking and payment related frauds involving cheque, plastic or sharp instruments are taken to be involved in an incident if card and online bank accounts in the UK, including offences not they are used to stab or cut, or as a threat, and thus this dataset reported to the police. This dataset is sourced from Action Fraud covers more than just injury. These data are provided for the last and industry sources and is still under development. It is published three financial years (April to March) for the police forces areas in Appendix Table A5, available from the following link: in question in table 1. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/ Table 1: Knife and sharp instrument offences recorded by the police for period-ending-march-2012/stb-crime-stats-end-march- selected violent and sexual offences1, 2009/10 to 2011/12, for selected 2012.html police force areas Information is not held centrally on the proportion of credit Police force card fraud offences resulting in conviction. The Ministry of area 2009/10 2010/11 2011/12 Justice are responsible for data on convictions and have published a table showing the number of convictions for the broader offence Bedfordshire 390 394 385 group of Fraud and Forgery in England and Wales over the last Cambridgeshire 360 289 237 ten years. This is available from the conviction tables at the link Essex 679 530 338 below: Hertfordshire 128 143 113 http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/criminal-justice/criminal- Norfolk 201 152 94 justice-statistics Suffolk 178 177 190 1 Includes offences of attempted murder, threats to kill, ABH and Government Departments: Computer Networks GBH, robbery, rape and sexual assaults (including indecent assault on a male/female and sexual assault on a male/female). Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Source: Police recorded crime, Home Office Office what assessment he has made of the potential The number of homicide offences recorded by the police for wider use of the Government secure intranet; and involving a knife or sharp instrument is provided the police force what plans he has for future procurement in that area. areas in question in table 2. The latest published data on homicides [128576] cover the period up to 2010/11. Data for 2011/12 are due to be published by ONS in February 2013. Mr Hurd: Government Secure Intranet (GSi) is a Table 2: Homicides recorded by the police involving a knife or sharp legacy infrastructure which is being phased out. instrument, 2009/10-2010/11, for selected police force areas We are, through the Government’s ICT Strategy, Police force area 2009/10 2010/11 introducing a ’Public Sector Network’ (PSN) to bring Bedfordshire 2 3 together the multiple, separate existing networks into Cambridgeshire 2 2 one, standards-based network for the whole UK public Essex 3 6 sector. Hertfordshire 3 6 Government Departments: Procurement Norfolk 4 4 Suffolk 4 2 Note: Michael Connarty: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Figures represent the number of homicides recorded by the police as Office if he will review Government procurement policies at 13 June 2012; figures are subject to revision as cases are dealt with in order to exclude any supplier which employs an by the police and the courts, or as further information becomes unlawful travel and subsistence scheme. [129528] available. Source: Homicide Index, Home Office Miss Chloe Smith: I refer the hon. Member to the Data for 2011/12 on selected offences involving a knife and answer I gave to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon sharp instrument (as presented in table 1) have been published by Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) on 19 November ONS in the data tables accompanying the quarterly crime statistics 2012, Official Report, column 253W. released in July 2012. This statistical bulletin is available on the ONS website here: Knives: Crime http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/ period-ending-march-2012/index.html Mr Ruffley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Due to the small number of offences recorded, data on homicides involving a knife and sharp instrument are not routinely published Office how many people were (a) injured and (b) at police force area level. killed as a result of knife crime offences in (i) Suffolk, (ii) Bedfordshire, (iii) Cambridgeshire, (iv) Essex, (v) Hertfordshire and (vi) Norfolk in each of the last three Low Pay years. [129251]

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Office how many people in (a) the UK and (b) North asked the authority to reply. East England are paid less than the living wage. [129366] 547W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 548W

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the In 2010 we reiterated our policy in central Government responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have to pay undisputed invoices within five days and to pass asked the authority to reply. 30 day payment terms down supply chains. We expect Letter from Glen Watson, dated November 2012: our suppliers to follow our example on prompt payment As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I and pay their sub-contractors within the 30 day limit. have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question In July 2011 MCO announced three specific actions asking how many people in (a) the UK and (b) North East our suppliers, Departments and SMEs themselves can England are paid less than the living wage. (129366) take to help us achieve this goal. On 22 November, the latest earnings information from the First, our Crown Representative team is encouraging 2012 Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings will become available, and the question will be answered using this latest information. prime contractors to pay more quickly than the 30 days The honourable member will be contacted directly with the commitment on a voluntary basis. answer, as soon as it is available, and a copy of the fetter placed in Second, Departments are monitoring prime contractors’ the Library of the House of Commons. performance against the 30 day commitment to pay sub contractors as part of the contract management process. Public Sector: Procurement Third, although our policy is mandated best practice rather than a legislative requirement, we are encouraging Mr Hanson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office SMEs to use the ’Mystery Shopper’ service to report to pursuant to the answer of 4 September 2012, Official Government instances where this is not happening; and Report, column 324W, on public sector procurement, we regularly publish investigated cases on the Cabinet what steps he is taking to ensure that public funds spent Office website. on Government construction contracts are paid by The most recent report goes to May 2012, so cases contractors to subcontractors that are owed them; and investigated since then have not yet been published. if he will make a statement. [128688] Gordon Banks: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Miss Chloe Smith: After May 2010 this Government Office pursuant to the answer of 16 July 2012, Official introduced extensive reforms of public procurement to Report, column 542W, on public sector: billing, which streamline the process and to create a more level playing Departments require their contractors to have signed field where SMEs can more easily compete for and win up to the Prompt Payment Code before they are hired; business. As part of this work we have instructed and if he will make a statement. [129361] Departments to monitor prime contractors’ performance against the 30 day commitment to pay sub-contractors as part of the contract management process. We have Miss Chloe Smith: Central Government Departments’ also introduced a ’Mystery Shopper’ service which allows contract terms require contractors to pay their us to investigate instances of late payment and we subcontractors within 30 days in line with the Government’s publish these cases on our website. prompt payment code. Information is not held centrally on which Departments require suppliers to have signed I am pleased to say that on 13 November, the National up to the code itself before they are appointed. Specialist Contractors Council paid tribute to the work done by the Government in ensuring prompt payment in construction by naming the Minister for the Cabinet Unemployment Office and Paymaster General, my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), as one of its Fair Payment Champions. John Robertson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet This recognises the effectiveness of the steps we are Office what estimate he has made of the number of taking to ensure sub-contractors are paid on time, such unemployed people in (a) Glasgow North West as using Project Bank Accounts to make direct payments constituency, (b) Glasgow, (c) Scotland and (d) the to firms down to tier 3 of its supply chains. Where UK according to the Labour Force Survey definition of Project Bank Accounts are not used, we specify in unemployment in each month of 2012 to date. [129390] contract terms that contractors should pay their sub- contractors within 30 days, in line with the Government’s Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Prompt Payment Code. responsibility of the- UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Gordon Banks: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Letter from Glen Watson, dated November 2012: Office pursuant to the answer of 17 July 2012, Official As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Report, column 690W, on public sector: procurement, have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what steps he has taken to tackle late payment practices for the number of unemployed people in (a) Glasgow North West as a consequence of the Mystery Shopper scheme; and constituency, (b) Glasgow, (c) Scotland and (d) the UK according if he will make a statement. [129360] the Labour Force Survey definition of unemployment in each month of 2012 to date (129390). Miss Chloe Smith: This Government introduced the The ONS compiles Labour Market Statistics for small areas Mystery Shopper scheme to help deal with the poor following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions using the Annual Population Survey (APS). Unfortunately, due procurement practice which we inherited in May 2010. to small sample sizes this data does not support analyses of Mystery Shopper cases are addressed on an individual unemployment for Glasgow North West constituency. basis. Completed investigations have so far resulted in The ONS compiles unemployment statistics for local authorities outstanding invoices being paid, amended payment terms, following ILO definitions using model based estimates derived and processes being streamlined. from the APS and information from the Claimant Count. 549W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 550W

Table 1 contains model based unemployment estimates for ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Glasgow based on individuals who were unemployed in the week prior to interview during: Cattle: Animal Welfare the latest 12 month period ending June 2012 Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for the 12 month period ending March 2012. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what research It also contains estimates for Scotland and the UK for the same commissioned by his Department into the health and periods based on the APS. welfare implications of permanent housing of dairy The estimates for Scotland and the UK in table 1 differ from cattle is (a) currently under way and (b) planned. those published in the Labour Market Statistics bulletin, which [129457] are produced from the Labour Force Survey (LFS). As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject Mr Heath: DEFRA has funded a project entitled to a margin of uncertainty. A guide to the quality of the estimates ‘AW1026: A study to investigate the management and accompanies the estimates for the latest period. welfare of continuously housed dairy cows’. The final These figures along with a wide range of other labour market report has been submitted and it is anticipated that it data for parliamentary constituencies and local authorities are will be published early in the new year. DEFRA has not also published on the Office for National Statistics’ Nomis website: published any calls for further research on the health and welfare implications of permanent housing of dairy www.nomisweb.co.uk cattle. Table 1: Number of people unemployed1 Thousand Compost 12 months ending: March 2012 June 20122 Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what factors the 3 Glasgow 32 ***32 Environment Agency takes into consideration before 4 Scotland 213 *213 issuing a permit for the siting of a windrow composting 4 United Kingdom 2,539 *2,548 site. [129558] 1 Reported as unemployed during the week prior to interview. Interviews are conducted throughout the relevant periods. 2 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as Richard Benyon: The siting of new windrow composting an indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality sites is a matter for relevant planning authorities when below. they determine planning applications and is not determined 3 Model based estimates by the Environment Agency. The Environment Agency 4 Annual Population Survey is a statutory consultee for such applications and cannot Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, issue permits for this type of waste operation unless the the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely sites have the necessary planning permission. to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 In determining applications for permits for composting with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within facilities, the site’s location will have a bearing on whether the range 180-220. Key: the Environment Agency is likely to grant a permit, the *0≤ CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise type of permit that might be issued, the type of ** 5 ≤ CV <10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered infrastructure and controls and safeguards required by reasonably precise the permit conditions. *** 10 ≤ CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered acceptable The main locational factors that the Environment **** CV ≥ 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too Agency will take into account with respect to the points unreliable for practical purposes above are likely to be the proximity of the proposed site Source: to sensitive receptors such as dwellings and workplaces, Model Based Estimates; Annual Population Survey groundwater source protection zones, watercourses, and designated habitats sites such as Sites of Special Scientific Voluntary Work: Olympic Games 2012 Interest. Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Blunkett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his Office what steps he has taken to make contact with Department has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated Olympic and Paralympic volunteers; what plans he has research into any relationship between the use of windrow to engage their continuing commitment; and if he will composting sites and the incidence of respiratory illnesses make a statement. [129083] in populations located within (i) 500 metres, (ii) 1,000 metres and (iii) 1,500 metres of those sites; and if he will make a statement. [129559] Mr Hurd: The Government is keen to use the momentum created by the London 2012 Games to encourage even Richard Benyon: DEFRA has not commissioned research more people to continue volunteering. We have worked into the relationship between the use of windrow with the Join In Trust and with LOCOG to build links composting sites and the incidence of respiratory illnesses with the Olympic and Paralympic Volunteers and are in in populations located within these distances. Findings discussions with LOCOG, who currently own the database from the DEFRA bioaerosol project expected in spring for the majority of volunteers, about accessing the 2013 will help to shape our policy around this issue and database to best keep them engaged ensuring that the to provide evidence on bioaerosol production, dispersion volunteering and social action legacy of the games is and potential exposures on humans from windrow maintained and enhanced. composting sites. 551W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 552W

Under the Environmental Permitting (England and As we have no information on the method of slaughter Wales) Regulations 2010, the Environment Agency is used in the country of destination it is not possible to required to assess any emissions from windrow composting provide information on the number of live animals sites and monitor the impact on the environment and exported for slaughter according to methods which human health and act accordingly where there are would be illegal in the UK. Member states have to meet breaches of the environment permit. European Union legislation requirements when slaughtering We are working with WRAP and the Environment animals. Agency to produce a matrix of recently completed and Pay ongoing Government sponsored research in AD and composting from the AD and Composting Research Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Network (ADCORN), co-ordinated by DEFRA. This Food and Rural Affairs how many employees in his is available at: Department are paid in excess of (a) £80,000 and (b) http://www.biogas-info.co.uk/images/PDFs/research.pdf £100,000. [128562] Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon [holding answer 20 November 2012]: Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what research his As at 30 June 2012, the number of core DEFRA Department has conducted into the presence of harmful employees paid an annual salary in excess of £80,000 pathogens and spores originating from windrow sites. was 38. Of these, 13 were paid in excess of £100,000. [129561] Plastics: Packaging Richard Benyon: DEFRA is funding a project to provide evidence on bioaerosol production, dispersion Mark Pawsey: To ask the Secretary of State for and potential exposures on humans from windrow Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what consideration composting sites. This project is undertaking a he gave to representations from the plastics manufacturing comprehensive set of standard and novel bioaerosol industry when formulating the Producer Responsibility measurements at representative composting sites, to Obligations (Packaging Waste) (Amendment) Regulations assess comparability and measure spatial and temporal 2012. [129049] variations. It will also measure trace components of the Richard Benyon: All representations and evidence odour emissions and compare these with bioaerosol received as part of the consultation process were considered emissions to see if odour is a marker of significant carefully when developing the Producer Responsibility bioaerosol exposure. The final report is likely to be Obligations (Packaging Waste) (Amendment) Regulations published next year. 2012. The Waste and Resources Action Programme has completed a quantitative risk assessment exercise on compost derived from waste materials, which has included reviewing and assessing data on a range of pathogenic ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE organisms. This work is currently being considered by Electricity the Food Standards Agency through its Advisory Committee on the Microbiological Safety of Food. We Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for expect this review process to be finalised next year. Energy and Climate Change when he intends to publish his Department’s consultation on potential policy Livestock: Exports approaches for electricity demand reduction. [129227]

Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hayes: Following the publication in July of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent assessment promised in the EMR White Paper to determine discussions he has had regarding the export of live whether DECC should take further steps to improve the animals. [128619] support and incentives for the efficient use of electricity we committed to consult on measures later this year Mr Heath: In addition to internal meetings, I have and we intend to do so shortly. had two recent discussions with the hon. Member for Energy: Housing South Thanet (Laura Sandys) on exports from the port of Ramsgate. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for I also recently met with Compassion in World Farming Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment his in order to discuss a range of animal welfare issues, Department has made of the uptake of energy efficiency including the export of live animals. measures by Service Family Accommodation properties. [129211] Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he Gregory Barker: The Department has made no dedicated has made of the number of live animals exported for assessment of the uptake of energy efficiency measures slaughter according to methods which would be illegal by Service Family Accommodation properties. Such in the UK in the last year for which figures are properties are, however, included within the scope of available; and if he will make a statement. [129356] the English Housing Survey produced by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my Mr Heath: For the period of 1 November 2011 to right hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar 31 October 2012 8,414 sheep and 148 cattle were exported (Mr Pickles), which my Department has used to help from Great Britain live to EU member states. inform the Green Deal Household Model. 553W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 554W

Forests Bio-energy Demonstrators of the European Industry Bio-energy Initiative (awards in Scotland) Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Offshore Wind Accelerator (operated by Carbon Trust) (awards in Scotland) Energy and Climate Change what his priorities are for the negotiations on reducing emissions from deforestation Polymer Fuel Cells (operated by Carbon Trust) (awards in and forest degradation at the UN Climate Change Scotland) Conference in Doha in November 2012. [129218] Entrepreneurs Fast Track (operated by Carbon Trust) (awards in Scotland) Gregory Barker: Our priorities for the Doha negotiations Low Carbon Network Fund (operated by Ofgem) (awards in Scotland) on reducing emissions from deforestation and forest degradation (REDD+) are to make progress on the UK Global Threat Reduction Programme technical work programme set out in Cancun (2010) Renewable Energy and Energy Efficiency Partnership (REEEP) and Durban (2011), to build the architecture needed to (b) NDPBs scale up REDD+, with the aim to complete the work Nuclear Decommissioning Agency: programme in 2013. Our expectations are to agree the Beyond Chapelcross Workforce Transition Project (CWTP) elements relating to measurement, reporting and verification (awards in Scotland) and national forest monitoring systems, and as part of Caithness and North Sunderland Fund (CNSF) the EU, we will urge for clarification of the process for agreeing technical assessment of reference levels and the operationalisation of the social and environmental Green Deal Scheme safeguards for REDD+. We will also prioritise reaching agreement on the Mr Watts: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy modalities and procedures for financing results-based and Climate Change what consideration he has given to actions for REDD+ that is consistent with our overall the provision of a subsidy scheme to bridge the gap finance goals for Doha of at least maintaining Fast between the ending of the current Carbon Emissions Start levels of finance; that does not exclude any source; Reduction Target and Community Energy Saving and that outlines elements needed to enable the scale up Programme obligations and the Green Deal Finance finance for REDD+. Company becoming fully operational. [129286] We also want to use the Doha session to press the Gregory Barker: The existing Carbon Emissions important role REDD+ can play in closing the 2020 Reduction Target (CERT) and Community Energy Saving mitigation gap to 2 degrees Celsius as highlighted in the Programme (CESP) schemes will come to an end on 31 recent UNEP report. Doha is also an opportunity to December 2012. Ofgem set out their approach to CERT/ highlight public finance available to tackle deforestation CESP compliance in an open letter of 21 September 2012. and forest degradation beyond the Fast Start period In this they set out how they will treat work completed (2010-12). after the end of 2012. Such work may be considered as a mitigating factor when considering enforcement action Grants and what form any such action should take. The Energy Company Obligation (ECO) will come Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for into force on 1 January 2013, ensuring there is no hiatus Energy and Climate Change what grant-giving between ECO and CERT/CESP.Additionally, any ECO programmes are operated by (a) his Department and activity delivered from 1 October 2012 can also be (b) the bodies for which he is responsible; and which counted towards an energy supplier’s eventual ECO such programmes award grants in Scotland. [129154] target. Government has further announced a £125 million Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and ‘cash back’ offer, designed to incentivise consumers to Climate Change’s grant funded programmes are listed take up the Green Deal. It will be available to all as follows. Where the grant is awarded in Scotland this consumers in England and Wales who make a financial is indicated: contribution to the installation costs of energy efficiency (a) Department measures under Green Deal, whether or not they take Warm Front out Green Deal Finance. We announced it would launch Renewable Heat Premium Payment (awards in Scotland) in 28 January 2013, however the Department is looking at whether it will be possible to open the scheme for Energy Efficiency Loan Schemes applications earlier in January. Green Deal Incentive Scheme Core Cities Grants Housing: Insulation Pioneer Places Grants Low Carbon Pioneer Cities Sarah Newton: To ask the Secretary of State for Marine Energy Array Demonstrator Scheme (awards in Scotland) Energy and Climate Change what consideration he has Carbon Capture and Storage Innovation Programme (awards given to measures to increase insulation uptake in housing in Scotland) stock which has yet to instal cavity and loft insulation. Offshore Wind Component Technologies and Demonstration [129424] Scheme (awards in Scotland) Energy Entrepreneurs Fund Scheme (awards in Scotland) Gregory Barker: Since this Government put in place Energy Storage Component Research and Feasibility Study the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT) extension Scheme (awards in Scotland) in April 2011 around 700,000 cavity walls and 1.6 million 555W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 556W lofts have been insulated under the CERT programme. Gregory Barker: The Government is committed to Subsidised, or often free, offers of insulation continue the deployment of tidal stream technology in the UK, to remain available under CERT this year. as demonstrated by active engagement with the marine Going forward, a number of policies will support industry and through financial initiatives to support the insulation uptake. Under the Green Deal householders development of tidal stream devices. will be able to install a range of energy efficiency We are open to considering well-developed, robust measures (including loft and cavity insulation) without proposals for tidal stream devices for harnessing the having to pay all of the costs upfront, with the Energy energy from the Severn estuary. Company Obligation focussed on the poorest and most vulnerable, and on harder to treat homes, such as those Warm Home Discount Scheme with hard to treat cavities. The Government has also announced a £125 million cash back scheme to encourage Sarah Newton: To ask the Secretary of State for early uptake of measures under the Green Deal from Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made January 2013. The first householders to take action of the number of households who will receive the under this scheme will be able to claim back £350 for warm homes discount in each local authority area in installing loft and cavity insulation. winter 2012-13. [129442] In addition, the Energy Act 2011 enables Government to regulate to help ensure the take up of cost effective Gregory Barker: Around 2 million low income and energy efficiency improvements in the private rented vulnerable households will benefit each year as a result sector. From April 2016, domestic private landlords of the Warm Home Discount scheme. This is expected should not be able to unreasonably refuse requests from to include over 1 million of the poorest pensioners who their tenants for consent to energy efficiency improvements, will receive an automatic £130 discount on their electricity where financial support is available, such as the Green bills in winter 2012-13. Regional or local authority Deal and/or the ECO. Further, the Energy Act contains breakdowns for these data are not available. provisions for a minimum standard for private rented housing and commercial rented property from 2018, likely to be set at EPC band ’E’. The Government has committed to working with the sector in advance of any TREASURY regulations to encourage uptake of energy efficiency measures through the Green Deal and has confirmed Air Passenger Duty that any use of these regulation-making powers is conditional on there being no upfront or overall costs Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to landlords. pursuant to the answer of 15 October 2012, Official Report, column 76W, on air passenger duty, what the timetable is for HM Revenue and Custom’s commissioned research on the effect that differential prices at UK Hydroelectric Power airports could have on the overall demand for aviation and on passengers’ choice of airport. [129225] Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will consider allowing small Sajid Javid: This research has been published on HM hydro-schemes to be installed under permitted development Revenue and Custom’s website and it is available as as part of a strategy of increasing the supply of hydro- “No. 188: Modelling the Effects of Price Differentials at electricity. [129500] UK Airports” at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/reports.htm Gregory Barker: Small scale hydropower can make a Business: Barnsley small, but useful contribution to delivering low carbon electricity and the coalition Government is keen to maximise its potential. There are a range of measures in Dan Jarvis: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer place to encourage the development of appropriately if he will make an assessment of the potential effects of sited hydropower installations. the funding for lending scheme on businesses in Barnsley Central constituency. [129326] In most cases hydropower stations require planning permission because they involve physical development Greg Clark: The Funding for Lending Scheme is of land. In April 2012 the Government introduced helping to make loans cheaper and more easily available secondary legislation that confirmed that hydro turbines across the UK. It is designed to incentivise banks and meeting defined criteria influencing the size and location building societies to boost their lending to households of the turbine on farms and forestry units can be and non-financial companies in aggregate. Participating installed as permitted development. In these cases planning banks have introduced a number of discounted loan permission from the local authority is not needed. products for small and medium sized enterprises and manufacturers. Severn Estuary: Tidal Power Child Benefit

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Mark Field: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has what estimate he has made of the cost of processing the made of the case for freestream tidal devices in the additional self-assessed tax returns arising from the Severn estuary. [129222] Government’s plan to means-test child benefit. [127229] 557W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 558W

Mr Gauke: Child benefit is not being means-tested Mr Gauke: No formal regulatory impact assessment before payment. Instead the high income child benefit has been undertaken regarding the implementation of charge applies a new income tax charge on individuals class 1 national insurance contributions for entertainers. with an income above £50,000 where they or their However, prior to entertainers being included in the partner is in receipt of child benefit. Social Security (Categorisation of Earners) Regulations Information about processing the additional self 1978 in 1998, and a subsequent amendment in 2003, the assessment returns is not available and would be so only Government liaised extensively with entertainment industry at disproportionate cost. stakeholders to fully understand the impact of the legislative changes on entertainers. The estimated total operational costs relating to the introduction of the high income child benefit charge were published in the Tax Information and Impact Natural Gas Note at Budget 2012: www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2012/tiin-0620.pdf Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what (a) information his Department has Nick Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer received from the Financial Services Authority (FSA) how people whose entitlement to child benefit will vary and (b) discussions he has had with the FSA on steps during the tax year will be affected by the changes to taken by the FSA since 2005 in relation to reports of child benefit from 7 January 2013. [128152] misconduct in the UK gas market. [129009]

Mr Gauke: The high income child benefit charge is Sajid Javid [holding answer 19 November 2012]: Treasury based on the total amount of child benefit someone is Ministers and officials meet with, and receive representations entitled to receive over the course of a tax year (or from from, a wide range of organisations and individuals in 7 January to 5 April for the tax year 2012-13). If the public and private sectors as part of the usual someone becomes ineligible for child benefit part way policymaking process. As was the case with previous through a tax year, or a new claim is made part way Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to through a tax year, the charge will only apply to the provide details of all such representations. amount actually paid. They will then have to show this amount on their self assessment tax return. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer An individual’s entitlement to child benefit is not whether Lord Browne of Madingley has (a) conducted affected by the introduction of the high income child areviewofand(b) provided any advice to his Department benefit charge. Entitlement to child benefit will remain on gas policy; if he will publish the content of any such if an individual decides to opt out of receiving child review and advice; and if he will make a statement. benefit as a result of the charge. [129425]

Grants Sajid Javid: Treasury Ministers and officials meet with, and receive representations from, a wide range of Margaret Curran: To ask the Chancellor of the organisations and individuals in the public and private Exchequer what grant-giving programmes are operated sectors as part of the usual policymaking process. As by (a) his Department and (b) the bodies for which he was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the is responsible; and which such programmes award Government’s practice to provide details of all such grants in Scotland. [129152] representations.

Sajid Javid: No grant giving programmes are operated Retail Prices Index within the Treasury Group. Insurance: Floods Annette Brooke: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make an assessment of the potential effects of Chris Huhne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer any planned changes to the retail prices index to bring it what assessment he has made of the effects of the more in line with the consumer prices index on (a) withdrawal of flood insurance on the (a) availability of savers, (b) pensioners and (c) the public finances. mortgages and (b) housing market. [129504] [129557]

Sajid Javid: Government is considering a range of Sajid Javid: The National Statistician launched a options to ensure that insurance for homes at risk of Consultation on four options for the calculation of the flooding remains widely available. As part of this we retail prices index (RPI) on 8 October 2012. The have held discussions with insurers and lenders to help consultation closes on 30 November 2012. It is anticipated understand the impact on the availability of mortgages that any recommendation for change will be announced and the housing market. The conclusions of this work by the National Statistician in January 2013. will be taken into account during policy development. There is no role for Ministers in this process unless under very specific circumstances and only then at the National Insurance Contributions: Entertainers very end of the process. Only if the Bank of England considers a proposed change to the RPI to be fundamental Kevin Brennan: To ask the Chancellor of the and materially detrimental to the interests of holders of Exchequer what impact assessment his Department has relevant index-linked gilts, would the agreement of the undertaken on the implementation of class 1 national Chancellor of the Exchequer be required before the insurance contributions for entertainers. [129330] change could be made. 559W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 560W

Social Security Benefits As part of the 2010 spending review settlement we announced that over £900 million would be made available Alex Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the to HMRC to step up their activity in tackling tax loss. Exchequer what the cost to the public purse was of tax This includes putting extra resource into tackling both credits and other benefits to working households with avoidance and evasion. This reinvestment is funding a children in 2011-12; and what estimate he has made of range of measures which will enable HMRC to bring in such costs in 2012-13. [128957] around £7 billion each year by 2014-15 in additional revenues. Mr Gauke: The latest available estimate for tax credit Universal Credit expenditure is for 2010-11; figures for 2011-12 will be published in May 2013. The 2010-11 HMRC publication “Child and Working Tax Credits Statistics 2010-11” can Mr Byrne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer be accessed here: what estimate he has made of the proportion of employees who will be working for firms enrolled on real time http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/child-wtc- information for universal credit in (a) April 2013, (b) may12.pdf October 2013, (c) January 2014, (d) April 2014 and Based on figures in Table 1.1 of this publication, the (e) January 2015. [129476] total amount of tax credits paid to working households with children was £19.6 billion in 2010-11. Mr Gauke: HMRC does not hold information on the Child benefit is paid to any household irrelevant of number of employers who will have employees claiming their employment status, therefore and we cannot estimate universal credit. Where an employer has employees the amount paid to working households. claiming universal credit, PAYE RTI for those individuals Housing benefit and council tax benefit are also paid will be shared with the Department for Work and to working households with children. The following Pensions. figures represent the expenditure on these households in 2011-12. Housing benefit and council tax benefit expenditure on working EDUCATION households with children Expenditure (£ million) Children: Abuse

Housing Benefit 3,117 Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Council Tax Benefit 396 how much his Department has spent on measures to Taxation: Aviation ensure the protection of children from abuse resulting from witchcraft branding or accusations of possession by evil spirits since 2011; and how much it plans to Chris Huhne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer spend on such measures in each of the next five years. what recent steps his Department has taken to address [128671] international legal barriers to the introduction of a per-plane aviation duty. [129502] Mr Timpson [holding answer 19 November 2012]: The organisations participating in the National Working Sajid Javid: I refer the right hon. Member to the Group on Child Abuse Linked to Faith or Belief, including answer given on 16 July 2012, Official Report, column the Department, have responsibility for the work in the 519W. action plan published by the Group in August. The Taxation: Self-employed Group is making excellent progress in implementing the plan for little financial cost. Beyond the time spent by policy officials on this work, since 2011 the Department Rachel Reeves: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer has spent £12,500 on a literature review, published on how many members of staff at HM Revenue and Customs 24 October, to inform the discussions of the Group. were assigned to tackling fraudulent claims of self- Future activity, and the Department’s contribution to employment in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) 2011-12. such activity, will be considered at regular meetings of [129490] the Working Group. The Department currently has no specific plans for further expenditure on this issue, Mr Gauke: This Government is determined to tackle though officials will continue to spend time taking tax evasion of all kinds and ensure that the tax system forward this important work with Group members. operates fairly and efficiently for all. A breakdown of numbers of staff assigned to tackling Royal National College for the Blind fraudulent claims of self-employment is not available except at a disproportionate cost. HM Revenue and Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for Customs compliance activity covers all aspects of non- Education what assessment he has made of the level of compliant behaviour from simple error through to funding for the Royal National College for the Blind; avoidance, evasion and organised criminal attack. Within and what plans he has for future funding for the body. HMRC compliance work is primarily carried out by [127118] staff in the Enforcement and Compliance line of business. HMRC take a risk based approach to compliance. Matthew Hancock: The Department through the Fraudulent claims of self-employment may be tackled Education Funding Agency currently funds approximately by compliance officers and investigators across a range 70 placements for young people aged 16-25 with learning of activity. difficulties and/or disabilities at the Royal National 561W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 562W

College for the Blind in Hereford. The total placement (2) whether he plans to publish the interim funding for these 70 young people in relation to 2012/13 evaluation report of the pathfinder programme to test academic year is £2.9 million. These placements have out the proposals in the Special Educational Needs and been commissioned by local authorities to meet the Disabilities Green Paper; [128613] education, training and support needs for the young (3) what assessment he has made of progress on the people as outlined within their learning difficulty assessment. pathfinders chosen to test the proposals in his Department’s The Education Funding Agency undertakes annual Green Paper on special educational needs and disabilities; moderation of institution accounts to monitor their and what assessment has been made of the state of such financial health. The Royal National College for the pathfinders which (a) are in the recruiting phase and Blind is assessed as low risk with no concerns about (b) have not yet launched; [128786] the college’s financial health. My assessment is that the (4) what steps he plans to take to ensure the findings college is adequately funded by the Department for the from the evaluation of the pathfinder programme to challenging work it does with those young people who test out the proposals in the special educational needs require its specialist services. and disabilities Green Paper contribute to the From 2013/14 new funding arrangements are being legislative proposals contained in the Children and implemented for the college and similar specialist Families Bill; [128787] institutions. These arrangements will support the (5) by what date he anticipates the pathfinder programme Government’s plans to introduce a more integrated to test the proposals in his Department’s special educational approach to assessment and planning for young people needs and disabilities Green Paper will be completed. with special educational needs from birth to age 25. The [128788] Department is attaching two important conditions to these arrangements. The first is that local authorities Mr Timpson: In line with commitments made in the are required to continue with existing placements when Special Educational Needs and Disability Green Paper, the new arrangements come into effect, and the second 20 pathfinders were set up in September 2011, representing is that local authorities will be required to look at 31 local authorities and their health partners. All pathfinders placements in all institutions including the Royal National have launched and are recruiting families to test new College for the Blind on a fair and equivalent basis, so approaches. local authorities will continue to commission placements at the college for local young people following assessment, An independent interim evaluation report of the and will in future also provide the majority of the pathfinder programme was published on 18 October college’s funding for each student. 2012 and is available from the Department for Education’s research website at: Schools: Sports http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/research/ researchpublications Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Under existing contractual arrangements, the final Education what steps he is taking to promote sport evaluation report is due to be published in summer participation in schools, including disability sport. 2013. [126466] The interim evaluation report noted that good progress had been made across the pathfinder programme by Mr Timpson: Physical Education (PE) will remain June 2012. Most of the pathfinders had successfully set compulsory at all four key stages following the current up representative governance structures and project review of the National Curriculum. The revised programme delivery teams; there was a high level of positive engagement of study for PE will be slimmed down and will place a with parents; good progress had been made in mapping greater emphasis on competitive sport. It will be introduced out the single assessment and plan pathway; and in into schools from September 2014. most areas testing with families and young people was The School Games are already helping to increase the well under way. The report also identified that activities amount of competitive school sport. The School Games in some areas of testing were less well developed than have four levels: competition within schools; competition others, and that pathfinders have some way to go to between schools; county or district level competition; reach full implementation. The Department’s contracted and an annual, national, multisport competition for our pathfinder support team is working with groups of elite performers. Disability sport is included in the pathfinders to accelerate testing in those areas where School Games at all four levels. slower progress has been made. The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. The pathfinder programme was set up specifically to Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), test out the proposals in the special educational needs is considering a range of other measures to improve and disabilities Green Paper and the experiences of school sport for young people, including those with children, families and professionals in the pathfinder disabilities, and will make an announcement later this sites have already informed draft provisions, published year. in September 2012. Looking ahead, evidence from the pathfinder programme will be vital in informing Special Educational Needs parliamentary scrutiny of proposed SEN legislation; the development of regulations; revisions to the Special Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Educational Needs Code of Practice; and plans for Education (1) when he plans to publish the final evaluation national implementation. report of the pathfinder programme to test out the On 6 November, I was pleased to be able to announce proposals in the Special Educational Needs and Disabilities to the Education Select Committee an 18-month extension Green Paper; [128612] of the pathfinder programme, to September 2014. The 563W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 564W independent evaluation will be extended by up to 24 Crime: Plymouth months, subject to contract negotiations, and we will continue to offer ongoing support to pathfinders, with a Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for the focus on sector-led approaches to improvement, enabling Home Department how many hate crimes have been us to gather further information about the full range of reported in Plymouth in the last 12 months. [129553] pathfinder approaches, building on what we have already learned. It will allow more time for the most effective Mr Jeremy Browne: Data on the number of recorded pathfinder approaches to be fully documented and shared, hate crimes is collected centrally by police force area, particularly with non-pathfinder areas and support the and is not broken down by town or city. implementation of the Green Paper reform programme including, subject to parliamentary approval, the legislative Figures for hate crimes recorded by police forces in changes. England and Wales in 2011-12 were published by the Home Office in September. Data for 2011-12 is available on the Home Office website. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Emergency Calls: Hoaxes and False Alarms Trident Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Home Department how many hoax 999 calls were pursuant to the answer of 31 October 2012, Official received by the police in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) Report, column 296W, on Trident, what the overall cost 2012 to date in (i) Coventry, (ii) West Midlands and (iii) to date of the Trident Alternatives Review is by category England; and what estimate she has made of the financial of expenditure. [129307] costs associated with responding to such calls in each of the last three years. [129489] Danny Alexander: I have been asked to reply as the Minister responsible for the Trident Alternatives Review. Damian Green: The requested information is not Pursuant to my answer of 31 October 2012, Official collected by the Home Office. Report, column 296W, the costs of the review are met from within existing departmental budgets, and are Entry Clearances limited to the time spent by experts in providing advice and to any incidental travel costs associated with attending Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for the meetings. These costs are not centrally recorded and Home Department how many of the visa applications could be provided only at disproportionate cost. rejected in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011 were made by graduates or skilled workers. [126710]

HOME DEPARTMENT Mr Harper [holding answer 5 November 2012]: Under Crime Prevention: Nottinghamshire Tier 2 (skilled worker) and pre-Points Based System equivalents, there were 2,995 refusals (main applicants) Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for the in 2010 and correspondingly 1,462 refusals in 2011. Home Department what the level of crime reduction This information relates to refusals of entry clearance grant from her Department to (a) Nottinghamshire visas for the skilled workers route (Tier 2 of the Points County Council and (b) Gedling Borough Council was Based System and pre-PBS equivalents). Some of the in (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11, (iii) 2011-12 and (iv) 2012-13; refusals may have been for individuals who did not meet what estimate she has made of the level of crime reduction the required skill criteria. grant from her Department to (a) Nottinghamshire Information on whether visa refusals relate to applications County Council and (b) Gedling Borough Council in by graduates is not available. 2013-14. [126360] Data relating to grants and refusals of visas by Tier, are published in table ’be.01’ of the quarterly Home Mr Jeremy Browne [holding answer 2 November 2012]: Office statistical release ’Immigration Statistics’, available The following table shows the level of unringfenced from the Home Office’s Science, Research and Statistics community safety grant (known as partnership funding) website at: paid to Nottinghamshire county council. Funding is not allocated to Gedling borough council by the Home http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ Office. This specific grant stream ends after 2012-13. In Female Genital Mutilation 2013-14 Police and Crime Commissioners will receive some funding from a Community Safety Fund, which Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for the they can use to invest in drugs, crime, and community Home Department what estimate her Department has safety activities. They will be able to allocate this to all made of the number of female genital mutilation types of organisations in their police force area. operations carried out in the UK in each of the last Community safety grant: Nottinghamshire county council three years. [129395] £ Mr Jeremy Browne: The prevalence of female genital 2009-10 — mutilation (FGM) in the UK is difficult to estimate 2010-11 (baseline) 972,507 because of the hidden nature of the crime and the 2011-12 775,781 Home Office has not made an estimate of the number 2012-13 392,469 of FGM operations in the last three years. 565W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 566W

A study based on 2001 census data suggested that The Government has made clear it will always apply over 20,000 girls under 15 could be at high risk of FGM transitional controls on new EU member states. We are in England and Wales. also working to tackle abuse of free movement with other member states. Fixed Penalties Migration Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many of each category of fixed penalty notice have been (a) issued and (b) paid Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for the in each police force area in each month since their Home Department what (a) financial and (b) other introduction; and what the aggregate value was of the contributions the Government made to support the resultant fines imposed in each category. [129241] work of UK international organisations for migration in the last year in which information is available. Mr Jeremy Browne: Data provided to the Home [124517] Office on the number of fixed penalty notices (FPNs) for motoring offences cannot be broken down to show Mr Harper: The Secretary of State for the Home the month of issue/payment or payment rates by individual Office can confirm that financial contributions made by offence category. the UK Border Agency (UKBA) to the International Calendar year data for the period 2007 to 2010, Organisation for Migration (IOM) in financial year broken down by year, are published in the Home Office 2011-12 consist of the following: annual statistical release, “Police Powers and Procedures, A membership payment to IOM, half of which is England and Wales, 2010/11”, which is available online paid for by the Department for International Development at: (DFID), the other half of which is paid by the UK http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- Border Agency. statistics/research-statistics/police-research/police-powers- The amount calculated and invoiced is for calendar procedures-201011/ years, but the amount calculated due from both parties The number of non-endorsable (usually £30) and for the financial year 2011-12 was £1,941,190.34. endorsable (£60) fixed penalty notices issued, broken down by offence category are shown in Table FPN.03, Payment to IOM for running the UKBA Assisted while the number paid are in table FPN.04. Data for Voluntary Returns (AVR) programme in Afghanistan 2011 are scheduled to be published in spring 2013. for 2011-12 amounted to £718,635.67. This represents a payment on account for services receivable during the Data from earlier years are published in the Home period August 2011 to August 2012. Office Statistical Bulletin “Offences relating to motor vehicles” (1980 to 2006), and in a command paper from Payment to IOM for running a Facilitated Return 1977 to 1979; copies are available in the Library of the Scheme (FRS) in 2011-12 amounted to £396,176.27. House. Data for the years previous were published This represents a payment on account for services during annually as a return to the House of Commons. the period April 2011 to March 2012. An amount of £28,978.34 was also paid in financial Immigration year 2011-12 in relation to payments for moving refugees.

Damian Collins: To ask the Secretary of State for the Police and Crime Commissioners Home Department whether she gave consideration to allowing the constituents of the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe, Mr and Mrs Biscocho Viray, Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Office reference V1091633, permission to work Home Department how many requests for election whilst their application for leave to remain is considered; material for the police and crime commissioner elections and if she will make a statement. [128128] had been made via the Government’s 0800 1070708 telephone number by 31 October 2012. [126766] Mr Harper [holding answer 12 November 2012]: The UK Border Agency south-east area director wrote to Damian Green [holding answer 5 November 2012]: my hon. Friend about this case on 5 November 2012. Between 6 October, when the 0800 1070708 telephone number launched, and 31 October there were requests Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for 73,720 police and crime commissioner candidate for the Home Department what her estimate is of information booklets. immigration from Bulgaria and Romania in the period after 2014. [129022] Police: Cleveland Mr Harper [holding answer 21 November 2012]: The Government do not routinely produce forecasts or estimates Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for the of future levels of migration from individual countries. Home Department how many police officers there were The difficulty in producing a reliable forecast of likely in each basic command unit in the Cleveland police levels of migration, which would need to take account forceareaon31March(a) 2010 and (b) 2012. [128037] of a variety of factors, is in this instance accentuated by the fact that the United Kingdom is not the only Damian Green [holding answer 12 November 2012]: member state that will be required to lift existing labour Police service strength by basic command unit for Cleveland market restrictions on Bulgarian and Romanian nationals police force as at 31 March 2010 can be seen from the on 31 December 2013. following table. 567W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 568W

Police officer strength by basic command unit for Cleveland police Police officer strength by basic command unit for South Yorkshire forceasat31March20101 police force as at 31 March 20111 Number Number

Hartlepool 198 Rotherham 356 Langbaurgh (Redcar and 240 Sheffield 927 Cleveland) Central Services 774 Middlesbrough 314 Total 2,888 Stockton 287 1 These figures are based on full-time equivalents that have been Central Services 686 rounded to the nearest whole number, due to rounding there may be Total 1,724 an apparent discrepancy between totals and the sums of constituent items. Figures include those officers on career breaks. 1 These figures are based on full-time equivalents that have been rounded to the nearest whole number, due to rounding there may be The number of police officers at basic command unit an apparent discrepancy between totals and the sums of constituent level ceased to be collected from 2011-12. items. Figures include those officers on career breaks. Prostitution The number of police officers at basic command unit level ceased to be collected from 2011-12. Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for the Police: Conduct Home Department (1) what assessment she has made of the risks of women and men involved in prostitution Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for the being a victim of serious sexual or violent crime; and if Home Department (1) what assessment she has made she will make a statement; [128114] of the fairness and conduct of the Police Service’s (2) what estimate she has made of the proportion of Directorate of Professional Standards; [128242] men and women involved in prostitution who are (2) what assessment she has made of the fairness and habitual drug users; and if she will make a statement; interpretation of the Police (Conduct) Regulations [128236] 2008; and if she will make a statement; [128243] (3) what estimate she has made of the average age of (3) what assessment she has made of the fairness of entry for women and men involved in prostitution; and if she will make a statement. [128237] the police disciplinary boards. [128244]

Damian Green: The arrangements for dealing with Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government is committed to police officer misconduct are kept under constant review tackling the harm and exploitation associated with by the Home Office. Statutory instruments which make prostitution. The cross-Government Action Plan to end changes to these arrangements were laid in Parliament Violence Against Women and Girls sets out our on 23 October 2012. commitment to ensure that those involved in prostitution are protected from violence, free from exploitation and, Police: Disciplinary Proceedings where appropriate, given help to leave. The Home Office has not made any recent formal Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for the assessment of the demographics and characteristics of Home Department what her policy is on whether police men and women who are involved in prostitution. Local disciplinary charges can be investigated and brought agencies are in the best position to make an assessment once a police officer has retired. [122328] of the problems associated with prostitution in their local area. To empower them to do so and to respond Damian Green: Disciplinary action is usually brought effectively, in October 2011 the Home Office published to an end when an officer retires because the sanctions a review of effective practice in terms of policing, available if the officer is found guilty of misconduct are exiting, minimising harm and general multi-agency working. no longer available. Retirement does not, however, prevent Our review highlighted for local areas the importance allegations from continuing to be investigated and, in of prevention, including identification of child sexual the case of criminal matters, charges being brought. exploitation, and holistic support, including addressing alcohol and drug use. Police: South Yorkshire Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent assessment she has made (a) (b) (c) Home Department how many police officers there were of trends in on street, off street and escort in each basic command unit in South Yorkshire police prostitution; and if she will make a statement. [128991] forceon31March(a) 2011 and (b) 2012. [127955] Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government are committed Damian Green [holding answer 12 November 2012]: to tackling the harm and exploitation associated with Police service strength by basic command unit for South prostitution. The cross-government Action Plan to end Yorkshire police force as at 31 March 2011 can be seen Violence Against Women and Girls sets out our from the following table: commitment to ensure that those involved in prostitution are protected from violence, free from exploitation and, Police officer strength by basic command unit for South Yorkshire where appropriate, given help to leave. police force as at 31 March 20111 Local agencies are in the best position to make an Number assessment of the characteristics and issues of prostitution Barnsley 360 in their local area. To empower them to do so and to Doncaster 472 respond effectively, in October 2011 the Home Office 569W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 570W published a review of effective practice in terms of Brandon Lewis [holding answer 6 November 2012]: A policing, exiting, minimising harm and general multi-agency table with this information has been placed in the working. Our review highlighted for local areas the Library of the House. importance of prevention, including identification of Sir Philip Green’s report into Government efficiency child sexual exploitation, and holistic support, including in October 2010 criticised insufficient monitoring and addressing alcohol and drug use. poor spending controls on such corporate charge cards. This Government has put in place tougher controls on such card spending. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT This has helped the Department reduce our card EU Grants and Loans spending by over three-quarters, from £321,076 a year in 2009-10, to just £70,835 in 2011-12. Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Grants Communities and Local Government how much and what proportion of the total amount of European Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for Regional Development Funding in England remains Communities and Local Government what grant giving (a) unallocated, (b) unpaid to projects and (c) programmes are operated by (a) his Department and uncontracted in each region. [127209] (b) the bodies for which he is responsible; and which such programmes award grants in Scotland. [129156] Brandon Lewis [holding answer 7 November 2012]: I refer the hon. Member to my answer of 13 September Brandon Lewis: Providing a full list of grant giving 2012, Official Report, columns 306-08W. programmes operated by the Department of Communities EU Grants and Loans: Cumbria and Local Government (and bodies for which the Department is responsible) would incur disproportionate cost. A full outline of the activities of the Department John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for (and bodies for which the Department is responsible) is Communities and Local Government how much funding provided in the Department’s latest Annual Report and has been allocated under the European Regional Business Plan: (a) Development Fund in Barrow and Furness constituency http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ and (b) Cumbria in each of the last five financial years. attachement_data/file/5891/2171499.pdf [127881] http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/7527/2154390.pdf Brandon Lewis [holding answer 13 November 2012]: The Department for Communities and Local The North West European Regional Development Fund Government (including bodies for which the Department Programme 2007-13 has invested (a) £4.89 million is responsible) does not operate any grant giving, directly in Barrow and Furness constituency (2008) and programmes in Scotland. (b) £19.102 million in direct European Regional Development Fund investments in Cumbria. Housing: Construction The breakdown of investment on an annual basis is as follows: Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether local planning authorities £ which cannot achieve the number of houses using urban 2007 945,298 and brownfield land means to meet the population growth predicted in their local plan will be required to 2008 4,895,409 release green belt land or face their plan being found 2009 4,960,460 unsound by the Planning Inspectorate. [129492] 2010 4,026,840 2011 0 Nick Boles: It is for local councils to judge how to 2012 4,274,466 meet the objectively assessed development needs of The gap in direct investment for 2011 reflects that no their local area through their Local Plan. The National grant applications from Cumbria were either ready for Planning Policy Framework is clear that councils should approval or had been submitted for consideration. meet objectively assessed development needs, including housing, unless adverse impacts or the policies of the In addition, the North West Programme has funded a framework indicate otherwise. number of region wide business support schemes that Cumbria would be benefiting from. Investment details Local planning authorities can work together to meet on a sub-regional basis is not available for this activity. development requirements which cannot wholly be met within their own areas—for instance, because of a lack Government Procurement Card of physical capacity or because to do so would cause significant harm to the principles and policies of the Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for National Planning Policy Framework. The Localism Communities and Local Government if he will place in Act 2011 introduced a duty to co-operate for local the Library a copy of every individual transaction on planning authorities to work together to meet strategic government procurement cards held by his Department, planning priorities where these cross boundaries. including the (a) amount, (b) supplier, (c) date and When assessing a Local Plan for soundness, the Inspector (d) merchant category from the creation of the Department will judge whether the Local Plan is consistent with to date. [126804] national policy, and based on a robust evidence base. 571W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 572W

Non-domestic Rates DODS Civil Service World Eastern Eye Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Economist Communities and Local Government what revenue was Emergency Services Times accrued from business rates in each of the last five Encyclopaedia Of Compulsory Purchase & Compensation years; and if he will estimate the proportion of business Encyclopaedia Of Planning—Law & Practice rate revenue that was attributable to the revaluation of Ends Report newly redeveloped properties in each such year. Equal Opportunities Review [129503] Estates Gazette Brandon Lewis: The total revenue in England from European Human Rights Reports business rates in each of the last five years is shown in Evening Standard the following table: Financial Times Fire Times £ million Flight International Income from Central List and from FOI And Privacy And Data Protection E-Journals Net rate yield Former Crown List House Magazine & Blue Pages

2008-09 19,068 1,164 Housing And Property Law Review (Electronic) 2009-10 19,412 1,182 Housing Law Reports 2010-11 19,276 1,185 I—Newspaper 2011-12 21,034 1,261 IDS Employment Law Brief 2012-13 (B) 21,329 1,333 Inside Housing Source: Jewish Chronicle Data are taken from local authorities in England on the NNDR1 and Journal Of Planning And Environment Law NNDR3 returns. All years are outturn data, except 2012-13 which is budget data. Journal Of Urban Regeneration & Renewal No estimate is available for the proportion of business Journal On Planning And Environmental Law rates revenue that was attributable to the revaluation of Judicial Review newly redeveloped properties in each such year. Law Society Gazette Legal Action Press: Subscriptions Local Government Chronicle Local Government Reports Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government to which magazines, Local Transport Today journals and newspapers his Department subscribes. Mail On Sunday [125336] Marketing Week Mineral Planning And Waste Planning Brandon Lewis: The Department for Communities Motor Transport and Local Government subscribes to the following Municipal Journal magazines, journals and newspapers. This includes transport Muslim News titles provided to the Department for Transport as part of a shared service agreement. Muslim Weekly New Civil Engineer Architects Journal New Media Age Aviation News New Scientist Big Issue (Display Copy Only) New Statesman Building (and Supplements) Observer Buildings Magazine Occupational Pensions Buses PC Pro Campaign Planning Catholic Herald PR Week Church Times Press Gazette Civil Service World Private Eye CIWM—Journal For Waste Management Professional Property Planning And Compensation Reports Coach And Bus Week Commercial Motor Property Week Common Market Law Review Public Finance Consensus Economic Forecasts Public Law & Public Law Construction News Public Servant—PSCA Journals Daily Express Rail Daily Mail Rating And Valuation Reporter Daily Mirror Research Fortnight Daily Star Social Housing Development Control Services—Online subscription Solicitors Journal 573W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 574W

Spectator HEALTH Statute Law Review Sun Air Pollution Sunday Express Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Sunday Mirror Health which body is undertaking the assessments of Sunday People air pollution and mortality burden for particulate Sunday Telegraph pollution PM2.5 in respect of joint strategic needs Sunday Times assessment of health and well-being strategies for local Surveyor authorities outside London. [128682] Tablet Anna Soubry: The Health Protection Agency has Tec (Traffic Engineering And Control) arranged the calculation of the mortality burden attributable The Telegraph to long-term exposure to particulate air pollution (PM2.5) The Big Issue for English upper-tier local authorities. These estimates The Daily Jang M-S have been published in the base line data set for the The Daily Telegraph Public Health Outcomes Framework, which can be found at: The Economist www.phoutcomes.info The Guardian Indicators from all of the outcomes, frameworks, The Independent including the Public Health Outcomes Framework, can The Independent (Sunday) be used by health and well-being boards to inform Joint The Sun On Sunday Strategic Needs Assessments (JSNAs) and Joint Health The Times and Well-being Strategies (JHWSs). JSNAs and JHWSs Town And Country Planning are local strategic planning processes which will underpin local commissioning plans across the local national Tramways And Urban Transit health service and local authorities including public Universe health, social care and children’s services. JSNAs must Urban Design therefore be inclusive of the health and care needs of Voice Weekly the whole local population as an objective, comprehensive Weekly Law Reports and—most importantly—a locally-owned process of developing evidence based priorities for commissioning. The Department has made significant savings over the last three years through the rationalisation and Alcoholic Drinks: Children consolidation of supplier contracts and continues to monitor and review these costs as part of our commitment to reduce back office spending. For example, the Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Department spent £136,892 on newspapers, periodicals what proportion of 11 to 15 year old (a) boys, (b) girls and trade profession magazines in 2008-09 and £113,308 and (c) children had drunk alcohol at least once in in 2009-10; this was reduced to £93,601 in 2010-11, and each of the last 30 years by each (i) region and (ii) £62,074 in 2011-12. constituent part of the UK. [128603] The Department has a shared serviced arrangement Anna Soubry: Data published since the ‘Smoking, with Department for Transport hence the subscription drinking and drug use among young people in England to journals such as Aviation News, Coach and Bus in 2000’, providing national estimates from 1988, are Week, Flight International and Tramways and Urban included in the ‘Smoking, drinking and drug use among Transit. The Department for Transport reimburses my young people in England in 2011’, a copy of this has Department these costs (£3,339 per annum). already been placed in the Library. However, a regional breakdown from 1988 to 2010 could be calculated only Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for at disproportionate cost. It may also not be possible due Communities and Local Government how much his to the sample size and methodology used in some years. Department spent on newspapers, periodicals and trade The information on the proportion of 11 to 15-year-olds publications in the last 12 months. [125670] who have reported ever having had a drink by both sex and region for the years 2006 to 2008 is included in the Brandon Lewis: The Department spent £62,074, including ‘Smoking, drinking and drug use among young people VAT, on newspapers, periodicals and trade publications in England, findings by region 2006 to 2008’. A copy in 2011-12. Significant savings have been made since has been placed in the Library. May 2010 through the rationalisation and consolidation Information for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland of supplier contracts, from the £136,892 spent in 2008-09 is not held centrally. and £113,308 in 2009-10. Costs continue to be monitored and reviewed as part of our commitment to reduce Breast Cancer back office spending. Under our shared serviced arrangement with them, a Sir Peter Bottomley: To ask the Secretary of State for proportion of the journals are purchased for the Health what assessment he has made of the possible Department for Transport and we are reimbursed by factors associated with the changes in detection of them for these; the current reimbursement is around breast cancers since 1982; and if he will make a statement. £3,300 per annum. [128666] 575W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 576W

Anna Soubry: Female breast cancer incidence rates Norman Lamb: There are no plans to use the NHS have increased in the United Kingdom since the mid-1970s, Atlas of Variation to calculate national savings on at around 1% to 2% per year. In 1982 in England, there dementia care. The atlas can be used by the national were 21,914 cases of breast cancer in women and in health service locally to benchmark its hospital admission 2010 this figure had risen to 41,259. This increase is due rates and bed stays against similar organisations. It can to many factors, including the ageing population. also identify variation and help clinicians to understand The introduction of the NHS Breast Screening what is going on in their area and where to focus Programme in 1988 led to a short-lived additional increase attention to improve the care they provide. in incidence as a number of existing breast cancers were Providing high-quality compassionate care in hospital diagnosed in women screened for the first time. This is one of the priorities of the Prime Minister’s challenge trend largely occurred in women aged 50 to 64, the age on dementia. A range of actions including the group invited when the screening programme first started. Commissioning for Quality and Innovation goal, the By the mid-1990s, the increase in incidence rates had Call to Action to make hospitals dementia-friendly and returned to the pre-screening level. improving training and awareness will all help to deliver A recent steep rise in incidence rates for women aged a better hospital experience for people with dementia 65 to 69 can be attributed to the extension of breast and their carers. screening to women aged 65 to 70 between 2001 and 2006. Trends in breast cancer incidence have also been Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health affected by the reduction in the number of women if he will make it his policy to collect information on taking hormone replacement therapy, which had been memory clinic waiting times by each clinical shown to increase the risk of breast cancer in some commissioning group area. [129061] women. Norman Lamb: Data on waiting times for memory Carbon Monoxide: Poisoning services are not collected centrally. The Department is commissioning an audit of memory Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for services which will look at a range of measures, including Health what assessment his Department made of the capacity. cost to the NHS of treating carbon monoxide poisoning To support an improvement in diagnosis rates of in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011. [128972] dementia, the Department has developed an analytical model toolkit which will support Clinical Commissioning Dr Poulter: No assessment has been made. The cost Groups to improve their dementia diagnosis rate and to the national health service of treating carbon monoxide commission sufficient memory services. poisoning is not reported separately to the Department. Drugs: Rehabilitation Care Homes: Fees and Charges

Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to the economic micro-simulation Health whether he has made a recent assessment of the model for the years 2015-16 to 2025-26 published on effectiveness of the payment by results for drug pages 33 to 34 of his Department’s July 2012 report recovery pilot programme. [129308] entitled Caring for Our Future: progress report on funding reform, if he will publish and place in the Anna Soubry: The Payment by Results pilot programme Library an estimate of the costs of capping care costs at launched in April 2012. Ministers from the Department £60,000 with £10,000 general living costs according to of Health, Home Office, Department for Work and that model. [129355] Pensions and Ministry of Justice met with the eight pilot teams in October to review progress and informally Norman Lamb: The progress report sets out the cost assess the effectiveness. However, it is too early to draw to Government of different levels of the cap. Pages 33 any conclusions. A team led by the university of Manchester and 34 demonstrate the costs of caps set at £25,000 with will independently evaluate the programme. A report a £7,000 contribution to general living costs and caps of on the initial scoping and feasibility phase of the evaluation £35,000, £50,000, £75,000 and £100,000 with a £10,000 will be published by the university of Manchester by the contribution to general living costs. end of the year. We do not hold information on the cost of capping care costs at £60,000. Employment Agencies

Dementia Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his policy is on the use of offshore Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for employment companies in the supply of public sector Health if he will use the NHS Atlas of Variation to workers in his Department and its associated public calculate the potential savings which would arise if each bodies. [128734] primary care trust area performed as well as the best in terms of (a) the number of hospital bed days for Dr Poulter: Staff at the Department and its arm’s people with dementia and (b) rates of admission for length bodies acting in seconded roles, as specialist people with dementia; and if he will take steps to ensure contractors or interim managers, may have their salaries that poorly-performing areas learn lessons from areas paid through recruitment agencies or staff supply with better performance. [128913] organisations. 577W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 578W

The Department uses the Government Procurement engagement with local areas setting up shadow health and Service centralised agreements and frameworks which wellbeing boards via regional networks, the National Learning select a range of these organisations by public tender, Network for health and wellbeing boards and the Association such as the managed service provider agreement with of Democratic Services Officers; and Capita and the master vendor arrangement with Hays engagement via an invitation to local areas to provide detailed Specialist Recruitment for contingent labour requirements. feedback on the National Learning Network’s online forum (which has over 1,000 members involved or interested in the set The Department undertakes procurement in accordance up of health and wellbeing boards). with public procurement legislation and best practice The overarching theme of feedback from the engagement policies. This includes the inclusion into contracts, when exercise was the need for the regulations to provide appropriate, of a specific tax assurance clause. flexibility and to enable local areas to have the freedom to shape their boards as best fits with local circumstances, General Practitioners: Complaints through disapplication or modification of specific provisions in current legislation relating to committees of local Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for authorities. This included a very strong view from Health whether his Department is taking steps to stakeholders that provisions in relation to political ensure that patients who make a formal complaint proportionality of health and wellbeing boards should against their GP are not without good reason removed be disapplied. from a GP’s list. [129359]

Dr Poulter: All providers of national health service Health Services funded care must handle complaints in accordance with the NHS and adult social care complaints regulations. We expect their handling to be in line with the Parliamentary Liz Kendall: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Health Service Ombudsman’s ’Principles of Good (1) what funding his Department has provided for Complaints Handling’. clinical networks in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11, (c) Nobody should be without a general practitioner 2011-12 and (d) 2012-13; [129487] (GP) practice. If anyone who has been removed from a (2) what funding the National Commissioning Board practice’s list has difficulty in finding another practice, has allocated for clinical networks in (a) 2013-14 and the NHS has a legal responsibility to find them a new (b) 2014-15. [129488] practice where they can register. Primary care trusts have a duty to ensure that everyone Anna Soubry: Information concerning the funding in their area has access to NHS primary medical services. provided for clinical networks in 2009-10, 2010-11, 2011-12 Part of this duty entails keeping and maintaining lists and 2012-13 cannot be provided in the format requested. of NHS patients registered with GP practices. Only cancer, cardiac and stroke network funding is Under their contractual arrangements, practices may identified centrally, and this is provided via the Strategic notify their primary care trust of their wish to have a Health Authority (SHA) bundle. Funding for cancer, patient removed from their lists. Practices must have cardiac and stroke networks provided in the SHA bundle reasonable, non-discriminatory grounds for doing so, for the years requested has been placed in the following and unless the reason is because of violence or the table. threat of violence, practices are required to warn patients Cancer, cardiac and stroke network funding when taking such a step and to give reasons. £ million Primary care trusts must decide, considering the individual circumstances of each individual case, whether 2009-10 33 a practice has breached the terms of its contract, and 2010-11 33 what action to take. 2011-12 33 On 1 April 2013, this responsibility moves to the 2012-13 33 NHS Commissioning Board, where we expect more consistency and effectiveness in handling these issues. These allocations are based on estimates of the funding required to deliver cancer, cardiac and stroke networks. Health and Wellbeing Boards However, it is for each SHA to determine how the total amount they receive in the SHA bundle is allocated to specific services, such as clinical networks, taking into Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Health account the needs of local populations. which individuals and organisations proposed that the provisions of the existing legislation relating to Funding allocated for Strategic Clinical Networks in proportionality in sections 15 and 17 and Schedule 1 of 2013-14 is £42 million. The NHS Commissioning Board the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 should has made no decision about the funding allocation in be disapplied in respect of the composition of health 2014-15. and well-being boards. [129362] Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Lamb: The Department engaged broadly Health (1) whether he has the power to take a decision with stakeholders to develop the content arid policy based on the recommendation of a trust special proposals for regulations relating to health and wellbeing administrator (TSA) which results in the closure or boards. This included: downgrading of services at a hospital which is not part input from the Local Government Association (LGA); of the trust to which that TSA has been appointed; input from Local Authority Chief Executives; [129555] 579W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 580W

(2) whether the terms of appointment of the Special Dr Poulter: From April 2013, upper tier unitary Administrator of the South London Healthcare Trust authorities will have a duty to take appropriate steps to include the power to consult on changes to health improve the health of their population, funded through services at a hospital not located in the trust to which a ring-fenced grant which will be announced by the end he has been appointed. [129556] of the year. Estimates of 2010-11 primary care trust baseline Anna Soubry: The remit of a trust special administrator spend on public health services uplifted to 2012-13 (TSA) appointed to a national health service trust is to values and mapped onto local authorities for their develop recommendations for the Secretary of State on future public health responsibilities were published in the action that should be taken in relation to that trust February 2012. No local authority will receive less, in to secure sustainable provision of health services which real terms, than the baseline spending estimates. meet patients’ needs and deliver value for money. For The estimated 2012-13 baseline for Lancashire county those recommendations in relation to the NHS trust to council is £46 million. However, this is undergoing be viable and credible, the TSA will need to consider revision. The revised baseline and final allocations will relevant factors, including the intentions of NHS be published in due course. commissioners and the consequential impact upon the local health system. This will invariably require a TSA Hospitals: South West to consider implications for other health care providers that are part of the local system, as suggested by the Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health former Secretary of State, the Leader of the House of what assessment he has made of the proposed merger of Commons, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Bournemouth and Christchurch and Poole Hospitals; Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) in a written ministerial and if he will make a statement. [129310] statement of 12 July 2012, Official Report, columns 47-49WS, regarding South London Healthcare Trust. Anna Soubry: We have made no assessment. The Legislation, rather than the terms of appointment in Department does not have a role in approving a merger individual cases, requires a TSA to consult publicly on between two foundation trusts. his draft recommendations. He is expected to take the In the first instance it is for foundation trusts, in consultation responses into account when drawing up consultation with their staff, patients and local communities, his final recommendations report for the Secretary of to consider the benefits of a merger and take decisions State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for on whether a merger should be pursued or not. South West Surrey (Mr Hunt). The Secretary of State is The protection of patients’ interests is delivered through required to take a final decision about the action to be independent regulation by Monitor and the Office of taken in relation to the NHS trust in question, which Fair Trading. may have implications for the local health system. Human Papillomavirus: Vaccination

Health Services: Homelessness Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will take steps to ensure that girls who do not Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health attend school are able to access the HPV vaccine in all what steps his Department is taking to ensure homeless primary care trust areas. [129358] people are able to register with a GP. [128961] Anna Soubry: The policy and national guidance on Dr Poulter: It is the duty of each primary care trust to human papillomavirus (HPV) immunisation is that all ensure that anyone who wishes to do so can register girls aged 12 to 13 years should be offered vaccination, with a general practitioner practice in their area. Homeless whether they are attending school or not. Primary care people are entitled to access national health service trusts are currently responsible for the implementation primary medical services in the same way as anyone of the HPV immunisation programme in their localities else. taking into account local circumstances. Junior Doctors Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to improve Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Health hospital discharge procedures for homeless people. how many applications have been made by junior doctors [129059] for inter-deanery transfers in each of the last five years; how many such applications have been approved; and Anna Soubry: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I what the basis was for approving such applications. gave my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon [128945] (Mr Buckland) on 25 October 2012, Official Report, column 1035W. Dr Poulter: The Department does not hold information regarding the number of applications for inter-deanery Health Services: Lancashire transfers. Mental Illness Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much funding allocated to the NHS in Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2012-13 is being transferred to Lancashire County what research he has (a) commissioned and (b) Council under the provisions of the Health and Social evaluated on the effect on physical health of untreated Care Act 2012; and for what purposes. [128689] mental illness. [128679] 581W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 582W

Dr Poulter: The Department has not commissioned Pharmacy or evaluated research specifically on the effect on physical health of untreated mental illness. Mr Barron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The Department’s National Institute for Health Research (1) what the total cost is to his departmental budget and funds a wide range of research on mental health, including the budget of the agencies for which his Department is research relating to comorbidity of mental and physical responsible of administering the community pharmacy illness. contract; [128993] (2) how many statisticians are employed to support The Government’s mental health strategy, ‘No Health the administration of the community pharmacy Without Mental Health’, recognises that those with contract by his Department and the agencies for which mental ill health are more likely to have poor physical his Department is responsible; and what the total cost health. Its third agreed objective is that fewer people is of employment. [128994] with mental health problems will die prematurely and more people with physical ill health will have better Norman Lamb: The total cost to the Department and mental health. the agencies for which it is responsible of administering The main aim of the Information Centre’s Adult the community pharmacy contractual framework in Psychiatric Morbidity in England Survey of 2007 was 2011-12 was £20,158,000. Of this, there was a cost of to collect data on mental health among adults aged 16 £178,000 for 3.30 whole-time equivalent statisticians. and over living in private households in England. It is These figures cover revenue costs, but not capital the primary source of information on the prevalence of costs, for changes to the services in the national community both treated and untreated psychiatric disorders and pharmacy contractual framework (CPCF), including collected data on the prevalence of physical ill health in negotiation, legislation and implementation; drug the same population. reimbursement, with monthly changes to the Drug Tariff; assessment of medicine margin and adjustments for The Government has made it clear that mental health Category M generic medicine reimbursement prices; problems should be treated as seriously as physical forecasting prescription volume to inform delivery of health problems and this commitment has now been agreed funding; the Cost of Service Inquiry; settlement made explicit in the Health and Social Care Act 2012. of annual funding for the CPCF and adjustment of fees The Government’s mandate to the NHS Commissioning and allowances; publication of the Drug Tariff and Board explicitly recognises the importance of putting payment of pharmacy contractors. mental health on a par with physical health, and tasks the board with putting mental health on a par with Public Health England physical health, and closing the health gap between people with mental health problems and the population Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for as a whole. Health what (a) guidance and (b) support Public We have commissioned the Royal College of Psychiatrists Health England will provide to local authorities in to lead work, involving a wide range of professional relation to their new duties on public health. [128537] and other organisations, to consider how we can ensure mental health receives equal priority with physical health Anna Soubry: From April 2013, a new national in practice. organisation, Public Health England, will support the efforts of upper tier and unitary local authorities in their new leadership role for public health. NHS: Empty Property Public Health England will provide a range of knowledge, information and other services to support local leadership for public health. The precise nature of any guidance Mark Reckless: To ask the Secretary of State for and support is currently being discussed with local Health what proportion of NHS spending on empty government, including the Local Government Association. properties relates to PFI or similar schemes which started before 2010. [128964] WALES Dr Poulter: Information is not collected by the Pay Department on properties which are not in use as part of private finance initiative (PFI) and other public Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales private partnership capital investment schemes. how many employees in his Department are paid more than (a) £80,000 and (b) £100,000. [129345] The details of PFI properties may be available locally. Stephen Crabb: The information requested is contained Mark Reckless: To ask the Secretary of State for in the Wales Office Annual Report and Accounts 2011-12, Health how much the NHS spent on empty properties a copy of which is available in the Library of the House. surplus to requirement in the latest period for which figures are available. [128965] NORTHERN IRELAND Coroners Dr Poulter: The information requested is not collected. National health service organisations are responsible Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for locally for making decisions regarding the use of their Northern Ireland what her policy is on the decision of facilities including when they are made surplus. Northern Ireland’s senior coroner to suspend inquests 583W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 584W into 14 deaths related to the Troubles in Northern The Northern Ireland Prison Service and Police Service Ireland; and if she will make a statement. [129481] for Northern Ireland both keep arrangements for the personal security of their officers and staff under constant Mrs Villiers: I am currently considering the review. correspondence from the solicitor acting on behalf of the Coroners for Northern Ireland and have sought legal advice on the issues raised therein and my responsibilities as Secretary of State. I recognise the importance of DEFENCE clarifying the position at the earliest opportunity, given the impact of the suspension of the inquests on the Aircraft Carriers families in question. Sir Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Assembly Defence what recent assessment he has made of the possibility of both the aircraft carriers currently under Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for construction entering into operation by 2020. [129455] Northern Ireland how many responses her Department has received to its consultation on Measures to Improve Mr Dunne: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I the Operation of the Northern Ireland Assembly; and when gave on 18 September 2012, Official Report, column she intends to respond to that consultation. [129483] 615W, to the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty). Mrs Villiers: The Northern Ireland Office received 48 responses to a recent consultation on Measures to Improve Consultants the Operation of the Northern Ireland Assembly, including from the majority of Northern Ireland political parties. John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government’s response to the consultation will be Defence what the budget was for the recruitment of issued in due course. consultants at his Department and its agencies in each Omagh Self Help and Support Group of the last five years. [126705] Mr Francois [holding answer 5 November 2012]: The Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Ministry of Defence (MOD) specifies its required output Northern Ireland what recent representations she has to be achieved at a particular price on consultancy received from the Omagh Self Help and Support contracts, as defined by the Cabinet Office. The MOD Group; and if she will make a statement. [129480] does not have a budget for the recruitment of consultants. Mrs Villiers: I am currently considering the report Consultancy expenditure as defined by the Cabinet which the Omagh Support and Self Help Group (OSSHG) for financial years (FY) 2005-06 to 2010-11 is shown in presented to my predecessor in June 2012. I am undertaking the following table: a range of consultations to ensure that I have all relevant information in advance of making a decision in relation FY £ million to the families’ request for a public inquiry. I have been 2005-06 261 in correspondence with the OSSHG on various matters 2006-07 129 related to the report. My office is currently scheduling a 2007-08 120 meeting with them. 2008-09 106 Pay 2009-10 79 2010-11 26 Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Expenditure on consultancy is now published annually Ireland how many employees in her Department are in UK Defence Statistics and can be found at: paid more than (a) £80,000 and (b) £100,000. [129348] http://www.dasa.mod.uk/modintranet/UKDS/UKDS2011/c1/ trans_sup.php Mike Penning: My Department currently has two members of staff who are paid more than £80,000, and Defence: Procurement one member of staff who is paid more than £100,000. Terrorism Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many projects being delivered for his Department by (a) BAE Systems, (b) Raytheon, (c) Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Qinetiq, (d) AWE Management Ltd, (e) MAN Truck Northern Ireland what recent assessment she has made and Bus Ltd, (f) British Telecom, (g) MBDA UK Ltd, of threats to the personal security of (a) prison officers (h) Westland Helicopters Ltd, (i) HP Enterprise and (b) police officers in Northern Ireland. [129482] Services Defence and Security UK Ltd, (j) Serco Ltd, (k) Sodexo, (l) Aspire Defence Ltd, (m) Debut Mike Penning: The Security Service has the lead on Services Ltd, (n) Purple Foodservice Solutions Ltd, the assessment of threat in Northern Ireland. (o) the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, The threat from Northern Ireland related terrorism (p) the NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management remains severe. The threat in Great Britain from Northern Agency, (q) BP Oil Limited and (r) Paradigm Secure Ireland related terrorism has recently been assessed at Communications Ltd are overrunning in terms of time; moderate by the Security Service. and where each project is located; [128061] 585W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 586W

(2) which projects being delivered by (a) BAE Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice published its Systems, (b) Raytheon, (c) Qinetiq, (d) AWE response to the ’Punishment and Reform: Effective Management Ltd, (e) MAN Truck and Bus Ltd, (f) Community Sentences’ consultation on 23 October 2012. British Telecom, (g) MBDA UK Ltd, (h) Westland The impact assessment that we published alongside the Helicopters Ltd, (i) HP Enterprise Services Defence Government response estimated that the cost of introducing and Security UK Ltd, (j) Serco Ltd, (k) Sodexo, (l) a punitive requirement to all community orders could Aspire Defence Ltd, (m) Debut Services Ltd, (n) be between £15 million and £40 million per year. We Purple Foodservice Solutions Ltd, (o) the Defence have not made any estimates of the potential effect on Science and Technology Laboratory, (p) the NATO the short-term prison population arising from this proposal. Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency and (q) Paradigm Secure Communications Ltd for his Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Department are running over budget; and by how what assessment he has made of the potential effect on much in each case. [128062] reoffending of requiring a court to include in any community order at least one requirement imposed for Mr Dunne [holding answer 13 November 2012]: This the purpose of punishment. [129041] information is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. A similar question asked Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice published its by the hon. Gentleman was answered but the information response to the ‘Punishment and Reform: Effective provided took four months to prepare and cost many Community Sentences’ consultation on 23 October 2012. times the disproportionate cost threshold limit set by We are legislating to require courts to include a punitive HM Treasury for answering parliamentary questions. element in every community sentence unless there are exceptional circumstances. HMS Ocean We have undertaken research to determine the relative effectiveness of community order requirements at reducing Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for re-offending, for offenders with similar characteristics. Defence whether HMS Ocean has an end-of-service This research is published on the MOJ website and can date. [129204] be located on the following webpage: Mr Dunne: The date of HMS Ocean’s withdrawal http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/research-and-analysis/ moj/effectiveness-community-order-requirements from service has not yet been decided. We have also published a full impact assessment Libya which outlines the impact of this proposal on reoffending rates. This can be located on the following webpage: Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/ effective-community-services-1/results/community-sentences- pursuant to the answer of 1 November 2012, Official response-ia.pdf Report, column 372W, on Libya, whether the Voyager tanker was used for any mid-air refuelling requirements Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice during Operation Ellamy. [129407] what assessment he has made of the potential effect on Dr Murrison: No. The first Voyager aircraft was not breach rates of requiring a court to include in any due to have been delivered until after Op Ellamy had community order at least one requirement imposed for finished. the purpose of punishment. [129042]

Written Questions: Government Responses Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice published its response to the ‘Punishment and Reform: Effective Community Sentences’ consultation on 23 October 2012. Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for We are legislating to require courts to include a punitive Defence when he intends to answer Question 124617 element in every community sentence, unless there are from the hon. Member for New Forest East, tabled on exceptional circumstances. 19 October 2012 for answer on 24 October 2012. [128640] We have published a full impact assessment of this proposal, including a summary of the potential effect of Mr Dunne [holding answer 19 November 2012]: I these proposals on breach rates. This can be located on replied to my hon. Friend on 20 November 2012, Official the following webpage: Report, columns 459-60W. I apologise for the delay. https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/ effective-community-services-1/results/community-sentences- response-ia.pdf

JUSTICE Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the potential effect will be on the rehabilitative Community Orders function of the Probation Service of including at least one requirement imposed for the purpose of punishment Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice on all community orders. [129043] what assessment he has made of the potential effect on the short-term prison population of requiring a court Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice published its to include in any community order at least one requirement response to the ‘Punishment and Reform: Effective imposed for the purpose of punishment. [129040] Community Sentences’ consultation on 23 October 2012. 587W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 588W

The full research that MOJ published alongside the Nationality Gender Region Referring agency Government response can be found on the MOJ website on the following webpage: Indonesian Female West Midlands Police http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/research-and-analysis/ Kenyan Female South West UKBA moj/effectiveness-community-order-requirements Lithuanian Male South East Police Lithuanian Male South East Police Convictions Lithuanian Male South East Police Lithuanian Male South East Police Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Lithuanian Male South East Police Justice pursuant to the answer of 9 November 2012, Lithuanian Male South East Police Official Report, column 824W, on Communication Act Lithuanian Male South East Police 2003, how many of the convictions since 2003 were due Lithuanian Male South East Police to (a) racial harassment, (b) sexual harassment, (c) Lithuanian Male South East Police stalking, (d) school bullying, (e) homophobia and (f) Lithuanian Male South East Police other categories of offence. [128927] Lithuanian Male South East Police Lithuanian Male South East Police Jeremy Wright: Information held centrally by the Lithuanian Male South East Police Criminal Justice System Statistics in the Ministry of Lithuanian Male South East Police Justice does not contain information about the Lithuanian Male South East Police circumstances behind each case, beyond the description Lithuanian Male South East Police provided in the statute under which proceedings are Lithuanian Male South East Police brought. It is not possible to identify from this centrally Lithuanian Male South East Police held information whether the grossly offensive/indecent/ Lithuanian Male South East Police obscene/menacing or false message/matter sent or caused Lithuanian Male South East Police to be sent by electronic communications network for Lithuanian Male South East Police which a defendant was found guilty constituted racial Lithuanian Male South East Police harassment, sexual harassment, stalking, school bullying, Lithuanian Male South East Police homophobia or other aggravating factors. Lithuanian Male South East Police Lithuanian Male South East Police Human Trafficking Lithuanian Male South East Police Lithuanian Male South East Police Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Lithuanian Male South East Police what the (a) nationality and (b) gender was of each Lithuanian Male South East Police suspected victim of trafficking referred to the Trafficking Lithuanian Female South East Social services Victim Support scheme operated by the Salvation Army Namibian Female South East Social services in October 2012; in which (i) region and (ii) local Nigerian Female South East Self-referral authority area each of the suspected victims was found; Nigerian Female South East City Council and which agency referred each case to the scheme. Nigerian Female South East Self-referral Nigerian Female South East NGO [129368] Nigerian Female South East UKBA Nigerian Female North West UKBA Mrs Grant: In October 2012 there were 77 referrals to Pakistani Female South East NGO the Government-funded support service for adult victims Polish Male West Midlands GLA of human trafficking in England and Wales administered Polish Male South West Self-referral by the Salvation Army. Details are provided as follows. Polish Male Yorkshire NGO Romanian Male South East NGO Nationality Gender Region Referring agency Romanian Female South East NGO Albanian Female South East UKBA Romanian Female West Midlands NGO Albanian Female Yorkshire UKBA Romanian Male West Midlands NGO Albanian Female south west UKBA Romanian Female South East NGO Albanian Female North West UKBA Slovakian Male Yorkshire Self-referral Albanian Female Yorkshire Police Slovakian Female Yorkshire Self-referral Albanian Female South East Social services Slovakian Female South East City Council Angolan Female South East Social services Slovakian Male West Midlands GLA Angolan Female South East Social services Slovakian Male West Midlands GLA Bangladeshi Female Wales Police Slovakian Female Yorkshire Police Bangladeshi Female South East UKBA Slovakian Female North West Police British Female South East Police Ugandan Female Wales NGO British Male West Midlands NGO Ugandan Female South East NGO Chinese Female Yorkshire UKBA Congolese Female Wales NGO Judicial Review Czech Male South East NGO Czech Male Yorkshire NGO Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Eritrea n Female South East Legal representative with reference to the Prime Minister’s speech to the Filipino Male South West NGO CBI on 19 November 2012, (1) if he will list all the Ghanaian Female Yorkshire UKBA judicial reviews brought since May 2010 that he regards Hungarian Female South East Police as having been pointless; [129486] 589W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 590W

(2) what plans he has to (a) increase charges and (b) The number of judicial reviews received in the last decrease time limits for bringing judicial reviews. 10 years relating to planning decisions are provided as [129479] follows.

Mrs Grant: In 2011 there were around 11,200 applications JR civil to apply for judicial review. Of the applications determined 1998 112 in that year, five out of every six were refused permission 1999 116 to proceed by the judge. This indicates that there was a 2000 121 significant volume of claims which did not display an arguable case. 2001 142 2002 119 The written ministerial statement issued on 19 November 2003 122 2012 confirmed that Government intends to seek views 2004 119 on a package of options that will include shortening 2005 140 time limits in certain cases, restricting the opportunities 2006 142 for an oral reconsideration of the application for permission in certain circumstances, and introducing new fees. The 2007 151 detail of these proposals will be set out in the engagement 2008 184 exercise. 2009 165 2010 148 2011 191 Offenders: Unpaid Work

Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what estimate he has made of the potential cost to the Prison Sentences public purse of increasing the number of offenders in unpaid work by (a) 25 per cent, (b) 50 per cent and (c) Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for 100 per cent. [128617] Justice what steps he is taking in conjunction with other Government Departments to ensure that the Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice published its likelihood of imprisonment is the same for all offenders response to the “Punishment and Reform: Effective regardless of ethnic background. [129410] Community Sentences” consultation on 23 October 2012. We are legislating to require courts to include a punitive element in every community sentence, unless Jeremy Wright: Sentencing is entirely a matter for the there are exceptional circumstances. We have made no courts, taking into account all the circumstances of the specific estimates of the potential costs of the scenarios offence and the offender. Any differences in the type outlined by the hon. Member. and severity of the sentence given to different offenders may be attributable to a wide range of factors, such as The impact assessment that MOJ published alongside the type and gravity of offence committed, and the the Government response can be found on the following individual’s previous offending history. webpage: The sentencing framework and sentencing guidelines, https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/ effective-community-services-1/results/community-sentences- including all aggravating and mitigating factors, are response-ia.pdf entirely neutral and applicable to all offenders.

Planning Permission: Judicial Review Prisoners: Pay

Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) how many applications for permission to apply for Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice judicial review of a planning decision made in each of what the average hourly wage is for prisoners who the last 10 years were brought within (a) 0 to six weeks undertake work in prison. [129403] and (b) six to 12 weeks of the decision appealed against; [129323] Jeremy Wright: Prisoners’ pay policy is set out in (2) how many applications for permission to apply Prison Service Order (PSO) 4460 (Prisoners’ Pay), a for judicial review of a planning decision made in each copy of which has been placed in the House Library. of the last 10 years were brought by (a) developers, (b) PSO 4460 prescribes national weekly minimum rates of other commercial enterprises and (c) other persons or pay however, within the terms of the Order and subject bodies. [129349] to the prescribed national weekly minimum rates of pay, governors and directors of contracted prisons have Jeremy Wright: Information relating to the date of devolved responsibility to devise their own local pay the planning decision being judicially reviewed and schemes that reflect regime priorities of their establishment. whether the claimant was a developer, a commercial PSO 4460 does not anticipate prisoners being paid an enterprise or other persons or bodies is not held on the hourly rate however, should an establishment be operating Administrative Court Office database in a searchable their local pay policy based on an hourly rate, these statistical format. The case files over the 10-year period figures are not held centrally and could be collated only (1,481 files) would have to be viewed individually to by manual checking with individual establishments, which provide the specific information requested. would incur disproportionate cost. 591W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 592W

Prisons: Procurement BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS

British Antarctic Survey Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the total cost to his Department was of his recent prison marketisation process, by type of cost. [128572] Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions he has had with the Natural Environment Research Jeremy Wright: The PCP2 competition process incurred Council on the appointment of a full-time director of £3.5 million of expenditure between July 2011 and the the British Antarctic Survey and on the timing of that end of September 2012. The table gives a breakdown of appointment. [129324] the type of cost.

£ million Mr Willetts: I have had discussions with the Natural Environment Research Council (NERC) about the British Payroll costs 2.3 Antarctic Survey but not specifically about this Non-payroll costs 0.1 appointment. This appointment is a matter for the Staff-related costs 0.1 Chief Executive of NERC. Admin running costs 0.4 Professional services 0.7 Broadband: Greater London Total 13.5 1 Rounded Meg Hillier: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) if he will assess the effect of Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice broadband service suppliers speed of connection on the which companies placed bids in respect of the prisons establishment of start-up businesses in and around marketisation process; and in respect of which prisons Shoreditch; [127799] each such bid was placed. [128574] (2) how many meetings he has had with start-up companies or their representatives to discuss broadband Jeremy Wright: The table lists all the companies who connections in and around Shoreditch in the last 12 originally placed bids for each prison in Phase 2 of the months. [127800] Prison Competition Programme. MITIE subsequently withdrew from the competition. HM Prison Service Michael Fallon: The Government is aware of concern also placed a bid for each prison. about broadband provision in Tech City and takes every opportunity to encourage suppliers to meet demand Competition Companies placing bids in this vibrant and growing technology cluster. In addition, HMP Northumberland G4S, MTC/Amey, Serco, the Government recently announced the provision of (previously HMP Acklington Sodexo up to £25 million funding to make London a super- and HMP Castington) connected city, and is working with the Greater London HMP Coldingley GEO, MITIE, MTC/Amey, Authority to ensure that the particular needs of Tech Sodexo City entrepreneurs and companies are reflected in their HMP Durham Interserve, MTC/Amey, Serco, plans for the use of that funding. Sodexo The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and HMP/YOI Hatfield G4S, GEO, Serco Skills, the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince HMP/IRC Lindholme Cable), has not had any meetings to discuss this issue in HMP/YOI Moorland the last 12 months. HMP/YOI Onley G4S, Interserve, MTC/Amey, Sodexo Business: Loans HMP Wolds G4S, Interserve, MITIE, Sodexo

Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Working Conditions Innovation and Skills what recent progress he has made on improving access to finance for businesses. [129327]

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Michael Fallon: The Government has put in place a for Justice if he will bring forward legislative proposals comprehensive package of support to improve access to to extend the Emergency Workers Obstruction Act finance for businesses: 2006 to include all public-facing workers. [127594] We have put in place a package of credit easing measures, to improve the supply of affordable credit to small and medium-sized Damian Green: We have no plans to extend the enterprises (SMEs) across the country, such as the Funding for Lending scheme to support supply of credit to the whole economy, Emergency Workers (Obstruction) Act 2006 to include and the £1.2 billion Business Finance Partnership to stimulate the all public-facing workers. The offences under the Act development of alternatives to bank finance. were enacted specifically to address the obstruction or We are supporting SMEs who lack sufficient track record or hindrance of emergency workers (and those assisting collateral to access bank finance by providing a Government them) when responding to emergency circumstances. It guarantee on their loan. Since May 2010, over 9,400 SMEs have would not be appropriate to extend these offences to been offered Enterprise Finance Guarantee loans, supporting encompass other public-facing workers. more than £970 million worth of lending. 593W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 594W

We are working with larger companies to encourage them to (4) what steps he will take to position and promote make available affordable working capital to their supply chains. the UK’s financial and professional services in We are encouraging businesses to export by providing a range international growth markets. [129088] of financial support through UK Export Finance—including support for small firms. We are increasing our commitment to venture capital investment Michael Fallon: Financial services is a key driver of and bridging the equity gap for early stage innovative SMEs our economy—it accounts for 10% of our economic through the Enterprise Capital Fund programme. Since May output; created an estimated trade surplus of £45 billion 2010, £94 million has been invested in over 70 companies. in 2011; and—as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister We are also encouraging a more enabling environment for said in his speech—underpins jobs for 2 million people. investment in SMEs through: (a) tax incentives—having launched It is vital then that we continue to promote and the Seed Enterprise Investment Scheme (SEIS) and expanded the Enterprise Investment Scheme (EIS) and (b) the Business Angel protect our world class strengths in this sector in Europe Co-Investment Fund, which aims to support angel investments and beyond, where we have intensifying competition into high growth potential early stage SMEs. from other financial centres. We do this in a number of But we know more still needs to be done to improve ways: access to finance for businesses and restore business The Secretary of State and ministerial team meet regularly confidence to invest. That is why we have announced with colleagues in both the Foreign and Commonwealth Office the creation of a business bank, which will receive and HM Treasury to discuss trade issues, including those relating £1 billion of funding to stimulate the provision of to this sector. In our bilateral meetings with key markets, we push for rules which deliver openness and competitiveness. finance to business and will also consolidate Government finance schemes and advice so they are more easily The Minister of State for Trade and Investment Lord Green understood and accessible to businesses. travels regularly overseas to promote this sector and UK business in general. We work in partnership with industry primarily through Exports TheCityUK who, with their members, set the strategic direction for the international promotion of the financial services industry. David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for We work closely with the Lord Mayor and Corporation of Business, Innovation and Skills what mandate he will London. The Lord Mayor is a unique ambassador for the City be given to increase trade opportunities with Morocco; and the financial, professional and business service sectors in and what assessment he has made of which business general, and travels overseas extensively promoting the UK’s sectors provide key UK export opportunities to that offer. country. [129176] We have teams across the UK and in over 100 markets across the world helping businesses access commercial opportunities Michael Fallon: We are committed to ensuring UK-based and bring investment to the UK. We ensure they are regularly companies are well positioned to make the most of the briefed on the needs and interests of the sector. emerging opportunities in Morocco. UK Trade and We work closely with other key financial bodies, including the Investment’s team in Casablanca helps companies in a London Stock Exchange and Lloyd’s and help communicate the range of sectors and supports trade missions and businesses unrivalled strengths of London as a global centre for raising at trade fairs in Morocco. After careful assessment of capital and risk management. the principal opportunities there, the team is particularly With regard to the structural changes taking place in focused on construction and infrastructure; tourism UKTI, financial services remain a priority sector with a and recreation; safety and security; financial and dedicated team. As with other such teams, it will increasingly professional services; energy and environment; water focus its activities on ensuring that UK businesses have and waste management. access to high value opportunities and are scoping To enhance our engagement, the Prime Minister recently future ones that are emerging, for example in Africa, announced the appointment of Lord Sharman as his Latin America and Asia. Trade Envoy for Morocco. Lord Sharman will be active This concentration on helping UK businesses seize both in Morocco and to raise the profile of Morocco in the best commercial opportunities brings its focus sharply the UK. on the high growth markets including Brazil, China, South East Asia, Russia, Turkey, India and The Gulf. Financial Services Some of our main activities here include: Helping businesses understand the opportunities in these markets. Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State UKTI’s global network provides tailored advice and in the last for Business, Innovation and Skills, with reference to two years it has run a series of events across the UK showcasing the Prime Minister’s speech at the Lord Mayor’s banquet the opportunities in China, India, Latin America, Russia and (1) what discussions he has had with the Secretary of South East Asia. State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to ensure With our industry partners, we are working to support new future international promotion of UK financial services international centres including Moscow, Istanbul and Dubai. is maximised and co-ordinated; [129085] Building partnerships like these provide an opening for UK businesses into these markets. (2) what assessment he has made of the effect on steps taken to promote the financial services sector of Promoting the UK as a world centre for Renminbi trading and Islamic Finance. the structural and operational changes under way within UKTI; [129086] With TheCityUK we support City Week 2013—the largest financial services promotional event in the UK. As well as thought- (3) what estimate he has made of the economic value leading discussions on the issues facing the sector, the event is to the UK economy of the promotion of the UK’s primarily structured around opportunities in a number of high financial and professional services sector; [129087] growth markets. 595W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 596W

Grants managed by Birmingham City Council on behalf of both Departments. The scope of the programme is Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for currently England only, but it could be extended across Business, Innovation and Skills what grant giving the UK on a project by project basis depending on programmes are operated by (a) his Department and co-funding from the devolved Administrations. (b) the bodies for which he is responsible; and which such programmes award grants in Scotland. [129157] Groceries Code Adjudicator Mr Willetts: The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (the Department) does not in general operate Mr Sheerman: Toask the Secretary of State for Business, grant giving programmes directly. Rather, it funds Innovation and Skills (1) what steps he is taking to independent partner organisations to allocate grant in ensure that the proposed Groceries Code Adjudicator accordance with their statutory functions and eligibility will have sufficient powers to be effective in his or her criteria across the United Kingdom, except where their role; and whether he or she will have the power to functions are legally confined to particular countries impose fines; [129419] within it. The following table sets out the latest allocations (2) if he will take steps to ensure that the Groceries for 2012-13 to our partner organisations and the scope Code Adjudicator will have sufficient powers to of the area in which they can spend grant for the regulate the industry. [129468] programmes they operate. The second table provides details of the main grant programmes which are directly Jo Swinson: The Government is committed to having operated by the Department. an effective Adjudicator. The Groceries Code Adjudicator Table 1 Bill provides for three enforcement measures. The Budget (£ Adjudicator may make recommendations, require retailers Partner organisation Scope million) to publish information about the breach, or impose financial penalties. The power to impose fines will be Skills Funding Agency England 5034 held in reserve but we will listen to what Parliament has Medical Research Council UK 575 to say on this issue, and ensure that we have legislation Natural Environment Research UK 327 Council that is fit for purpose. Engineering and Physical Sciences UK 833 Research Council Manufacturing Advisory Service Biotechnology and Biological UK 396 Sciences Research Council Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Economic and Social Research UK 167 Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what targets (a) he Council or (b) officials of his Department have set for the total Arts and Humanities Research UK 100 Council number of jobs (i) created and (ii) safeguarded by the Science and Technology Facilities UK 450 Manufacturing Advisory Service; [128685] Council (2) what target (a) he or (b) officials of his Learned Societies and Academies UK 86 Department have set for the total cost to the public Student Loans Company (England) English- 1746 purse of each job (i) created and (ii) safeguarded by the domiciled students Manufacturing Advisory Service. [128687] Technology Strategy Board UK 383 Higher Education Funding Council England 5949 Michael Fallon: The Manufacturing Advisory Service for England (HEFCE) (MAS) aims to help improve the competitiveness of manufacturing. This is reflected in the assessment of Table 2 the programmes set out in the following table, namely Grant giving programmes directly Budget (£ operated by BIS Scope million) gross value added (GVA),jobs created and jobs safeguarded. Rather than have a target for the total cost per job Regional Growth Fund (BIS element) UK 30 created or safeguarded, MAS is targeting Return on Grants for Business Investment & UK 55 Investment (ie total GVA outputs/total BIS funding for Support the programme) which can be compared with the former In addition, the Advanced Manufacturing Supply Chain regionally delivered MAS. The target for Return on Initiative (£125 million in total value), is partly funded Investment at the end of the MAS programme in March by the Department and partly funded by the Department 2015 is 20:1 which is more than three times greater than of Communities and Local Government. It is presently that achieved under regional MAS.

£ million/number/percentage Value of interventions to end October 2012 Outcome Programme target (March 2015) Forecast1 Target Variance (percentage)

Gross Value Added (GVA) (£) 1,219 million 303 million 159 million +91 Jobs created (number) 22,956 3,300 2,159 +53 Jobs Safeguarded (number) 50,857 8,853 6,934 +28 1 Forecast by the businesses who have received the 956 business improvement consultancy projects completed since the launch of the new Manufacturing Advisory Service (MAS) in January 2012. Forecasts are made at the end of the MAS intervention and cover the following 12 month period. A combination of on-site verification by MAS advisers and independent third party evaluation at least 12 months after the intervention will be used to determine actual values as well as assessing the additionality of MAS support. 597W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 598W

Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, levels of interaction with manufacturers. These are defined Innovation and Skills what targets or benchmarks (a) in the following table, showing the number of interventions he or (b) officials of his Department have set for the the service provider expects to deliver during the period total number of firms (i) undertaking business improvement 2012 to 2015 as forecast at the start of the new national consultancy projects, (ii) undertaking manufacturing contract in January 2012. Delivery of the total volumes reviews, (iii) attending best practice or training workshops, of level 2 and level 4 interventions are contractual (iv) receiving visits and (v) receiving grants through the targets whereas levels 1, 3 and 5 are demand-led. Both Manufacturing Advisory Service in each financial year the in-year and total number of interventions at all of its operation. [128686] levels are subject to possible adjustment by BIS to enable changing priorities or economic conditions to be Michael Fallon: The Manufacturing Advisory Service reflected in service delivery. (MAS) is contractually delivered through five different

Forecast number of interventions Level Definition Description 2012/13 2013/14 2014/15

1 Enquiries Free helpdesk and research service 16,000 16,000 13,000 2 Manufacturing On-site diagnostic review with manufacturer resulting 8,100 9,000 9,900 Review in a formal action plan. 3 Events Best practice or training workshops 300 300 300 4 Intensive Support Grant aided business improvement consultancy project 3,240 3,600 3,960 5 Referral Referrals from MAS to other support bodies eg UK 1,800 2,000 2,200 Trade & Investment

Marketing small businesses in setting up and when looking to grow. Further details on the post and how to apply are available at: Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the total cost to www.bisrecruitment.com the public purse was of the recent logo, branding and corporate identity changes at his Department. [128761] New Businesses: Barnsley

Jo Swinson: Over the last five years the Department Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, has been through three corporate identity changes: Innovation and Skills if he will make an assessment of In 2007-08 the Department spent £17,700 rebranding from the effects of recent new start-ups on the local economy DTI to BERR. in Barnsley Central constituency. [129329] In 2009-10 the Department spent £8,282 rebranding as the newly formed Department of Business, Innovation and Skills. Michael Fallon: One of the main contributions of In 2012 the Department spent £602.75 on logo, branding and new start-ups to economic growth is the number of jobs corporate identity changes. created. The best estimate we have is that start-ups are responsible for a third of all jobs created1. New Businesses According to Companies House, there were 450,000 new company registrations in Great Britain in 2011/12—the highest since records began in 1997/98 and up from Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 360,000 in 2009/10. However, the above data are not Innovation and Skills with reference to his announcement available at a constituency level. of 12 November 2012 on entrepreneurs in residence, what the role and duties of the entrepreneurs in residence The Office for National Statistics publishes the only will be; what civil service grade or equivalent that role data on start-ups that are broken down to a constituency will fall under; and whether they will be engaged on a level. According to the ONS, there were 250 business births in the Barnsley Central constituency in 2010. permanent basis. [128753] Information for 2011 will be published next month. However, those data are not comparable to the Companies Michael Fallon: This Department is looking to appoint House figures provided above because they relate to two entrepreneurs in residence, a person who is just VAT/PAYE registered business start-ups. starting up in business and a serial entrepreneur, bringing 1 www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/enterprise/docs/j/11-1326-job- small business and entrepreneurs further into the heart creation-and-destruction-uk-1998-2010 of government. The entrepreneurs will be office holders (not employees, and therefore not part of the civil Regional Growth Fund service grading structure) and will receive a £10,000 per annum honorarium for one day’s work per week. The appointment will be in a personal capacity and will be Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, made for one year. The Department already has effective Innovation and Skills pursuant to the Answer of 8 means of ensuring Ministers and policy makers are in November 2012, Official Report, column 697W, on close touch with entrepreneurs, but the entrepreneurs in Regional Growth Fund, how many individual awards residence will complement these existing mechanisms have been made under (a) round one and (b) round two with a more day-to-day perspective on the issues facing of the Regional Growth Fund by region. [128759] 599W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 600W

Michael Fallon: 176 bids under rounds 1 and 2 of the individual RGF awards from the two rounds is shown Regional Growth Fund (RGF) were conditionally allocated in the following table. The amounts paid out, rounded funding subject to confirmatory due-diligence. These up or down to the nearest half million, represent the bids translate to 239 individual awards as some bids amounts negotiated at final offer stage. have multiple counterparties. Regional breakdown of

Region Round 1 Round 2 Individual awards Total value (£ million) Individual awards Total value (£ million)

North West 9 28 39 212 West Midlands 9 107 22 126 North East 23 62 55 100 East Midlands 4 20 7 72 Yorkshire and 84523122 The Humber South West 6 8 11 91 South East 3 6 10 75 East of England 0 0 1 10 London 0 0 0 0 National 5 175 4 90 Total 67 451 172 898

Regional Growth Fund: Ashfield Medicine, both of which should reinforce Mayoral ambitions for the Knowledge Quarter. The selected Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for programme bid from the Liverpool City Region Local Business, Innovation and Skills how many projects in Enterprise Partnership will benefit businesses throughout Ashfield constituency have been selected to receive the city region. Furthermore, through the city deal, funding from the Regional Growth Fund in the latest there is a range of additional tools available to support period for which figures are available; and how many Liverpool’s ambitious vision. projects from Ashfield constituency have received final Liverpool was also successful in the first two rounds offer letters from the Regional Growth Fund in the of the RGF, with a total of £116 million for the Liverpool latest period for which figures are available. [127740] city region for both rounds.

Michael Fallon [holding answer 9 November 2012]: Students: Fees and Charges Based on the information provided in the bid applications, no projects in Ashfield constituency have been selected Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for to receive funding from the Regional Growth Fund Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has (RGF). However, it is possible for bids from other areas made of the effect of changes in the CPI on his to impact on the constituency, thereby providing wider estimates of levels of tuition fee repayment. [129072] benefits. East Midlands has had 11 RGF allocations from Mr Willetts: No assessment has been made of the Round 1 and 2. Of these, three have been finalised, five effect of changes in the consumer prices index (CPI) on have agreed terms and conditions and three have withdrawn. the levels of tuition fee repayment as they are not A further nine bids have been selected from this region dependent on each other. in Round 3, and these bidders have until 19 January to Loan repayment forecasts are based on the macro- agree terms and conditions. economic forecasts published by the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) and the repayment forecasts are Regional Growth Fund: Liverpool updated when the OBR publish updated forecasts.

Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Trade Promotion Innovation and Skills if he will assess the likely effect of the rejection of Liverpool Mayoral Investment’s bid for Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the third round of the Regional Growth Fund on Business, Innovation and Skills if he will consider investment and growth in Liverpool. [129473] implementing the recommendations in the report by the British Chambers of Commerce Exporting is Good for Michael Fallon: Over 400 bids were received in the Britain but Breaking into New Markets Requires Planning third round seeking £2.7 billion, from a budget that was on reforming publically-backed trade promotion schemes. limited to £1 billion. In the Liverpool city region, there [127768] were 24 bids, of which eight were programme bids. In this context, with applications for two and a half times Michael Fallon [holding answer 12 November 2012]: the money available, it was not possible to support all The Government welcomes the survey by the British the bids that were received. Chambers of Commerce (BCC) which highlights the A number of bids that have been selected for due importance of companies identifying a strategic approach diligence and contracting will be of direct benefit to the to exporting. The Governments’ trade promotion city, including RedX Pharma and the School of Tropical organisation, UK Trade & Investment (UKTI), provides 601W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 602W a wide range of support to business. Much of that We continue to press the Burmese Government for support, particularly its trade development programme the unconditional release of all political prisoners at called Passport to Export aimed at new and inexperienced every opportunity. My upcoming visit to Burma in exporters, emphasises the importance of developing an December will provide me a timely opportunity to raise export plan as part of an over-arching business strategy. those concerns again directly with senior members of In highlighting the need for reform of trade promotion the Burmese authorities. schemes, the BCC focused on two UKTI services: the Overseas Market Introduction Service (OMIS), and Commonwealth the Tradeshow Access Programme (TAP). For OMIS, the pricing structure and strategy is under constant Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for review. The charging structure is based on firms paying Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will list the for services used, irrespective of company size, providing Commonwealth Ministerial meetings to which the support for all firms but with additional assistance for Government has sent representatives in each of the last target groups. To ensure support is targeted, UKTI two years. [129478] offers grants and subsidies to reduce OMIS costs to small and medium-sized enterprises where it can make Mr Swire: The Government aims to send representatives the most difference, such as encouraging new exporters to all Commonwealth Ministerial meetings. In the last or exporters to high growth markets. two years, Ministers have attended the following: the On TAP £2 million has been added to the initial Commonwealth Sports Ministers Meeting (2012); the budget for 2012/13. The programme is now more flexible Commonwealth Ministerial Task Force meeting (2012); and covers UK business lounges and visitor missions to the Commonwealth Conference of Education Ministers overseas fairs as well as grant provision for SMEs. (2012); the Commonwealth Foreign Affairs Ministers UKTI planned these changes to TAP, and continues to Meeting (2011 and 2012) and the Commonwealth Law deliver the programme, in partnership with accredited Ministers Meeting (2011). trade organisations including members of the BCC. The Government was also represented by senior officials at the Commonwealth Health Ministers Meeting (2011 and 2012); the Commonwealth Finance Ministers Meeting FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (2011 and 2012) and the Commonwealth Consultative Group on the Environment (2011 and 2012). British Antarctic Survey The Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Foreign Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the Minister for Trade and and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the contribution Investment, and the then Minister for the Commonwealth of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State on 2 attended the 2011 Commonwealth Heads of Government November 2012, Official Report, column 538, on the Meeting and its various side meetings in Perth. Antarctic Bill, what discussions he has had with (a) the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills Employment Agencies and (b) the National Environment Research Council to ensure that a full-time director of the British Antarctic Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State Survey is appointed as soon as possible. [129548] for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy Mark Simmonds: I have not had any discussions is on the use of offshore employment companies in the about the appointment of a new director of the British supply of public sector workers in his Department and Antarctic Survey, as Ministers have no role in this its associated public bodies. [128729] matter. However, I understand that the Natural Environment Research Council will discuss the recruitment Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office and those aspects of the role which are associated with and associated public bodies recruit staff on the basis of the Antarctic Treaty System, with my officials. open, fair and merit based recruitment competitions. We use UK-based recruitment agencies to run recruitment Burma campaigns to attract the best staff into the organisation. We use employment companies based in the UK to Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for employ temporary and contracted resource. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the Government of Burma on the Middle East formation of a joint domestic and international board to investigate the number of political activists in Burma’s prisons and detention centres. [128949] Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he Mr Swire: In September the Secretary of State for has received of the number of people killed (a) in Gaza Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. by Israeli arms and (b) in Israel by arms originating Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), from Gaza (i) from 1 January to 31 October 2012 and met with Burmese Foreign Minister, U Wunna Maung (ii) on each day since 31 October 2012. [129554] Lwin, during the UN General Assembly in New York and pressed for the Burmese Government to set up an Alistair Burt: We have received reports that there was independent, non-political process for assessing those one Israeli death due to rocket fire from Gaza between still detained. He also urged the Burmese government 1 January 2012 and 31 October 2012. Since 31 October to lift restrictions on those who had been released, 2012, there have been reports of five Israeli deaths due including on their travel. to rocket fire from Gaza. 603W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 604W

We have received reports that there have been 57 Gazan David Mundell: The Scotland Office has only one deaths between 1 January 2012 and 31 October 2012 as member of staff whose salary is more than £80,000 or a result of Israeli airstrikes or Palestinian rockets. Since £100,000. 31 October 2012, there have been reports of 160 Palestinian deaths in Gaza from Israeli airstrikes or Palestinian rockets. Pakistan INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will publish Bangladesh the results of the Gallup survey conducted on Pakistan for his Department on 20 July 2012. [128578] Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development pursuant to the answer of 6 November Alistair Burt: Gallup Pakistan was commissioned by 2012, Official Report, column 603W, on Bangladesh, the tri-departmental Conflict Pool to undertake a range what proof of identity was supplied in order for a of polling in January 2012, to support UK political recipient to receive a beneficiary ID card. [128594] objectives in Pakistan. Gallup Pakistan own the data and the decision on whether to publish it rests with them, not the British Government. Mr Duncan: The name, address, spouse’s name, photo and signature of the recipient were taken at the time of selection. National ID cards were used to prove identity where available. Community verification was also used SCOTLAND to confirm identity, as not all Bangladeshi citizens have written proof of identity (birth certificate or identity A.G. Barr: Britvic card).

Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for International Scotland (1) what discussions he has had with Development pursuant to the answer of 6 November ministerial colleagues regarding the merger of A. G. 2012, Official Report, column 602W, on Bangladesh, Barr and Britvic; [129331] what assessment she has made of the potential effects of the revoking of the charity licence for the Bangladesh (2) what assessment he has made of the effects on Centre for Workers Solidarity. [128595] employment of the merger of A. G. Barr and Britvic; [129332] Mr Duncan: UK aid to the Bangladesh Centre for (3) when he last met the chief executive of A. G. Barr Workers Solidarity (BCWS) was provided to improve plc; and when he next plans to do so. [129333] the working condition of 34,806 garment workers, mainly women, by forming employee groups and committees David Mundell: Ministerial colleagues and I have to bargain with factory owners, and discussions with been monitoring the merger talks between A. G. Barr factory managers and buyers. and Britvic with interest and welcome the news that the headquarters of the new entity Barr Britvic Soft Drinks The grant was originally for three years from January plc will be located in Cumbernauld. 2009 to December 2011. When BCWS’s registration was cancelled in the middle of 2011, the non-government I understand that the new company has consequent organisation (NGO) could no longer receive foreign operational changes under review. The Secretary of funding, and was unable to complete the work it had State for Scotland, the right hon. Member for Berwickshire, planned to do in support of these workers. However the Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore) will discuss the Manusher Jonno Foundation continues to fund other merger with Roger White, the chief executive of A. G. NGOs to support other workers to obtain a better Barr, in the near future, to seek assurances that any minimum wage, safer working conditions and to reduce subsequent job losses can be minimised. violence against women workers.

Common Fisheries Policy Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development pursuant to the answer of 6 November Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland 2012, Official Report, column 602W, on Bangladesh, when he last met the Fisheries Minister in the Scottish how much aid funding from her Department has passed Government to discuss reform of the common fisheries through the Bangladesh Centre for Workers Solidarity policy; and if he will make a statement. [129547] in the last five years. [128596] David Mundell: I have regular discussions with the Mr Duncan: Manusher Jonno Foundation channelled Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and the Environment £44,200 of UK aid to the Bangladesh Centre for Workers in the Scottish Government on matters affecting his Solidarity (BCWS) in 2.5 years from 2009 to 2011. portfolio, including reform of the common fisheries policy. We spoke most recently on 1 November 2012. Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Pay International Development pursuant to the answer of 6 November 2012, Official Report, column 603W, on Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Bangladesh, what methodology her Department used how many employees in his Department are paid more to determine the figure of £11 per family per month. than (a) £80,000 and (b) £100,000. [129347] [128597] 605W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 606W

Mr Duncan: The support from the UK contributed to Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for a wider response managed by the World Food Programme International Development pursuant to the answer of 6 (WFP). From August to December 2011, WFP had November 2012, Official Report, column 604W, on been providing food directly, as food markets were Bangladesh, if she will provide a breakdown of the cost affected by the floods and insufficient food was available. of civil service training by each category of cost. As markets recovered, WFP started into providing cash, [128602] which was the part of the programme supported by DFID. The food ration had consisted of 266g of rice, Mr Duncan: The cost category for this project was and 20g of pulses per person per day, covering nearly public sector policy and administrative management. half of the daily calorie and protein requirements of the Training costs made up 62% of the programme budget, household members, to complement the Government and consisted of fees, accommodation, travel and of Bangladesh’s provision of rice. £11 was the cash subsistence. value equivalent of this support, to ensure that households could purchase the food requirement which also has the benefit of supporting the re-establishment of local markets. Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development pursuant to the answer of 6 November 2012, Official Report, columns 602-3W, on Bangladesh, Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for International how applicants for emergency cash transfers demonstrate Development pursuant to the answer of 6 November that they met the criteria for receipt of such transfers. 2012, Official Report, column 603W, on Bangladesh, how much of the operational cost was spent on (a) [128792] staff, (b) transport, (c) local security and (d) other. [128599] Mr Duncan: Applicants explained their eligibility against the criteria to non-government organisations (NGOs) Mr Duncan: As noted in the answer of 6 November partners, which was then confirmed (or disputed) by 2012, Official Report, column 603W, 45 million taka community members. This system is appropriate when (approximately £360,000) was delivered in cash directly people do not have written records of income or assets, to beneficiaries. The operational costs of delivering but do have strong community networks. The NGOs those payments were £48,000. The breakdown of the compiled the initial list of recipients, in consultation operational costs (converted into pounds) was as follows: with community members, community leaders and local authorities. The World Food Programme undertook (a) Staff: £19,576 on non-governmental organisation staff, £18,600 for three World Food Programme staff; additional beneficiary verification to ensure they met the criteria through household visits before endorsing (b) Transport: £3,859 for World Food Programme staff travel, £858 for vehicle leasing, £966 for vehicle maintenance; the final list. (c) £353 for local security; and Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for (d) other, including £3,747 for office rental, office supplies, utilities and communications (IT and phone bills). International Development pursuant to the answer of 6 November 2012, Official Report, columns 599-600W, on Bangladesh, under what cost categories the funding Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for International for programmes was spent. [128793] Development pursuant to the answer of 6 November 2012, Official Report, columns 598-9W, on Bangladesh, how the budget for the project was distributed to each Mr Duncan: Of the total project budget of £4.971 component. [128600] million, a total of 57% was spent on programmes over the lifetime of the project. The figure of 48% given in Mr Duncan: Of the total budget, 62% is allocated to the answer of 6 November 2012 was incorrect as it was the component on Medium Term Budgeting and Financial calculated based only on one phase of the project and Accountability, 20% to the component on Strengthening not the project as a whole. the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, and Of this programme budget, 44% was spent on staff 6% to the component on Strengthening Parliamentary costs relating to the production of Sanglap, 14% on Oversight. travel, 18% on event management, 14% on equipment 3% is allocated to work on Planning and Investment and other production costs, and 10% on investigative Management, 2% to a citizen’s component promoting reports. public accountability, and 3% to analytical work by the World Bank. 4% is allocated to World Bank supervision Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for and management. International Development pursuant to the answer of 6 November 2012, Official Report, columns 599-600W, Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for on Bangladesh, how the monitoring and evaluation of International Development pursuant to the answer of 6 the Sanglap II project was implemented. [128794] November 2012, Official Report, columns 598-9W, on Bangladesh, if she will estimate how much was spent Mr Duncan: Audience research was conducted on technical training per official trained. [128601] throughout the project. This included quantitative surveys in 2007, 2008 and 2009; feedback from the live audience Mr Duncan: So far, 3,119 Bangladeshi officials have after each show; and focus group discussions with received some form of technical training from the Bangladesh Sanglap viewers and listeners (2007, 2009) Strengthening Public Expenditure Management (SPEMP) and This Week in Parliament viewers (2009). DFID project, at a total cost of £228,000. This amounts to an reviews were conducted in 2008 and 2009 and on project average cost of £73 per person trained. completion. 607W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 608W

Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for needs of around 27,500 internally displaced people, International Development pursuant to the answer of 6 largely in border camps not controlled by Government, November 2012, Official Report, columns 599-600W, for food security, shelter, water, sanitation, health and on Bangladesh, whether any of the 10 pilots of This bedding. We continue to review the needs of the internally Week in Parliament were broadcast. [128795] displaced people in Kachin but at this stage do not have any firm plans to provide additional funding. Mr Duncan: All 10 pilots of This Week in Parliament were broadcast. Developing Countries: Environment Protection Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for International Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for Development pursuant to the answer of 6 November International Development what assessment her 2012, Official Report, column 601W, on Bangladesh, Department has made of the importance to the delivery how much the independent chartered accounting firm of Millennium Development Goal 7 on ensuring have been paid for the audit of the funding stream. environmental sustainability of supporting the work of [128796] national parliaments and legislatures within developing countries. [128659] Mr Duncan: DFID has spent £73,245 in the last three years on 70 independent audits of the accounts of Lynne Featherstone: The Department for International selected civil society organisations funded by Manusher Development (DFID) supports the delivery of all the Jonno Foundation (MJF). Five Bangladeshi audit firms millennium development goals (MDGs) by 2015, including were used for this work. MDG7 “Ensure Environmental Sustainability”. National parliaments and legislatures have a key role Burma in the delivery of all the MDGs, including MDG7, through their responsibility to put in place legislation Mr Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for on management of natural resources and in scrutinising International Development what funding her Department the actions of government. For example, DFID is helping has provided to organisations based on the Thailand-Burma to improve forest governance by working with countries border to support refugees and people displaced by to put in place and enforce new legislation on illegal conflict and human rights abuses. [128950] timber. DFID supports 13 country parliaments directly as well as supporting the National Democratic Institute, Mr Duncan: Between 2009-12 DFID has been providing the United Nations Development Programme and the a programme of assistance, totalling around £9 million, Westminster Foundation for Democracy, among others, for humanitarian and protection support to over 140,000 all of which offer support to strengthen democratic refugees in nine camps in Thailand and internally displaced processes and parliaments. people in conflicted-affected border areas of Burma. More information on DFID’s support for MDG7 This month DFID announced further, increased, support can be found in DFID’s “Supporting a Healthy for organisations based on the Thailand-Burma border Environment” publication which can be found on our delivering assistance in areas including food, shelter, website at: health care and legal assistance with additional focus on preparations of refugees for the possibility of return. http://www.dfid.gov.uk/What-we-do/Key-Issues/Climate-and- Funding for this is likely to exceed £13 million. environment/ Developing Countries: HIV Infection Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development (1) what plans she has to Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for extend and increase humanitarian assistance to internally International Development what recent assessment she displaced people in Kachin State, Burma; [129313] has made of the ability of the current health research (2) what assistance the Government is providing to and development system to meet the needs of people internally displaced people in Kachin State, Burma. with HIV in developing countries; if she will support [129314] proposals from the World Health Organisation’s (3) what recent assessment she has made of the (WHO’s) Consultative Expert Working Group for a humanitarian needs of the Kachin people displaced by binding convention on research and development at the conflict. [129315] forthcoming WHO meeting on 26 November 2012; and if she will make a statement. [129475] Mr Duncan: The instability in Kachin and Shan states, which started in June 2011, has led to the Mr Duncan: Health research, to meet the needs of displacement of over 70,000 people, loss of lives and people with HIV in developing countries, is conducted livelihoods, and damage to infrastructure. Humanitarian by a number of organisations. The UK, along with priorities include the provision of shelter, water and these other international agencies, is funding research sanitation, and food for those displaced. The security into new products that prevent acquisition of the virus, situation makes access difficult, particularly for international new treatment options, better ways to deliver existing organisations and the United Nations. Humanitarian drugs/treatments, and research to help us understand organisations have, however, had some level of access to the wider socio-economic factors that drive the epidemic. displaced populations in hard-to-reach areas. The UK welcomed the report of the Consultative DFID has provided £2 million to support humanitarian Expert Working Group on Research and Development, needs in Kachin through a number of local non- which aims to improve the research and development governmental organisations. This is helping to meet the system for HIV. We recognise the need for greater 609W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 610W coordination of research and for more effective funding Employment Agencies mechanisms. We are concerned that agreement on a legally binding instrument would be very difficult to Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State reach and would delay action. We favour the early for International Development what her policy is on establishment of a coordination mechanism tasked with the use of offshore employment companies in the identifying research priorities and funding gaps, and supply of public sector workers in her Department and recommending appropriate financing mechanisms. its associated public bodies. [128739]

Mr Duncan: DFID is implementing the Developing Countries: Legislatures recommendations of the Government’s review into the tax arrangements of senior public sector appointments. Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for DFID also complies fully with the Civil Service International Development how many and what proportion Commissioners Recruitment Principles when employing of projects (a) funded and (b) being considered by her public sector staff. Permanent vacancies are advertised Department support the work of (i) national legislatures widely and appointed through fair and open competition. and (ii) national parliaments in developing countries. Temporary vacancies are filled through nominated fixed- [128663] term contracts or though employment companies. All employment companies used to provide temporary workers are registered in the UK. Lynne Featherstone: The Department for International Development’s (DFID) expenditure is classified according to input sector codes agreed at the Development Assistance Grants Committee of the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD DAC). There is no sub-code Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for legislatures, and therefore we cannot give an accurate for International Development what grant giving picture of funding without investigating this manually programmes are operated by (a) her Department and across DFID’s portfolio, which would be extremely (b) the bodies for which she is responsible; and which time consuming and valid only for a short time. Details such programmes award grants in Scotland. [129149] of DFID’s planned, operational and complete projects are published in a database accessed through the DFID Mr Duncan: Funding opportunities are listed on the website: DFID website at: http://projects.dfid.gov.uk/ www.dfid.gov.uk DFID’s support to parliaments is wide ranging. For These include volunteering opportunities as well as example, it has included work in Nepal to help ensure grants for civil society organisations, businesses, schools marginalised groups are brought into the political process, and higher education institutions working to reduce plus work to improve the scrutiny role of specific poverty in developing countries. Many of these parliamentary bodies, such as the public accounts opportunities are open to organisations based in the committees in Uganda and Rwanda. UK and in DFID’s priority countries. Organisations based in Scotland can apply for any funding opportunities available to UK-based organisations. DFID works closely with NIDOS (Network of International Development Developing Countries: Poverty Organisations in Scotland), which provides support to civil society groups working overseas. Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what expertise and Haiti understanding her officials have on the importance of engaging with national legislatures in the pursuit of Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for poverty reduction targets in developing countries. International Development whether her Department is [128662] considering offering humanitarian assistance to Haiti. [129312] Lynne Featherstone: DFID continually invests in the skills of its officials. Governance specialists, currently Mr Duncan: In response to the devastation caused by numbering over 120, lead on our work with national Hurricane Sandy in the Caribbean, DFID has provided legislatures. In order to become a governance adviser a vital humanitarian assistance to Haiti and Cuba, the range of competencies are tested, including knowledge countries in the Caribbean most affected by the hurricane. of political systems. There is a coherent body of evidence The UK will contribute £7 million for Haiti and that suggests open political systems including strong £850,000 for Cuba, to meet food, emergency shelter, legislatures help sustain conditions for growth and poverty water and sanitation needs. An assessment team has reduction. This is consistent with the “Golden Thread” also been deployed to the region to ensure a rigorous of development referred to by the Prime Minister. approach is taken to assess the most urgent humanitarian DFID’s support to parliaments is wide-ranging. For priorities and ensure UK funding is used to achieve the example it has included work in Nepal to help ensure greatest impact on the ground. marginalised groups were brought into the constitution DFID will continue to monitor the situation, consulting making process, plus work to improve the scrutiny role other Government Departments, including the Foreign of specific parliamentary bodies, such as the public and Commonwealth Office in our response to this accounts committees in Uganda and Rwanda. humanitarian emergency. 611W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 612W

WORK AND PENSIONS Work experience starts (April and May) Number Atos Healthcare Coventry 40 Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Sector-based work academy starts (April and May) and Pensions what types of medical assessments are Number carried out by Atos Healthcare for his Department. England 2,340 [129408] West Midlands 240 Mr Hoban: Atos Healthcare provides medical advice Coventry 20 and assessments to assist DWP decision makers in These figures are based on official statistics released determining a claimant’s entitlement to the following on 15 August 2012. benefits: http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/pwp/ Incapacity Benefit (Reassessment) pwp_gbw_aug12.pdf Employment and Support Allowance Disability Living Allowance Housing Benefit Attendance Allowance Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Veteran Agency War Pension Claims Work and Pensions what estimate his Department has made of the cost of exempting people with a disability Carer’s Allowance from the social sector size criteria for housing benefit. [128947] Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made of the Steve Webb: The Department for Work and Pensions of the likely number of claimants of carer’s allowance estimates that the cost in 2013-14 of exempting claimants following the introduction of personal independence affected by the social sector size criteria measure where payment; and what recent estimate he has made of the either the claimant or partner reports a Disability number of claimants of carer’s allowance if disability Discrimination Act recognised disability would be around living allowance were not reformed. [129461] £300 million. Estimated numbers of claimants affected by the social Esther McVey: The available information on the impact sector size criteria measure in 2013-14 where either the of PIP on carer’s allowance is published in the personal claimant or partner reports a Disability Discrimination independence payment (PIP) impact assessment (May Act recognised disability and their estimated average 2012). The impact on carer’s is covered in paragraphs weekly reductions in housing benefit are contained in 23-26. This can be found on the Department’s website the impact assessment of the housing benefit change, at: which can be found at: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/dla-reform-wr2011-ia.pdf http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/eia-social-sector-housing-under- DWP publishes information on forecasted caseloads occupation-wr2011.pdf and expenditure on a range of benefits, including carer’s allowance, at: Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will estimate the number of housing http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/ index.php?page=expenditure benefit claimants who are also foster carers. [129367]

Employment Schemes: Young People Steve Webb: The information requested is not readily available and could be provided only at disproportionate Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Work cost. and Pensions how many youth contract placements have been started in (a) England, (b) the West Midlands Older People and (c) the Coventry local authority area to date. [129411] Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much was spent from the public Mr Hoban: The Youth Contract went live in April purse in social expenditure on older people in the UK 2012 and includes extra work experience places, including in the latest period for which figures are available. those that offer training and guaranteed interviews [129549] through sector-based work academies. This provides an offer of a place for every 18 to 24-year-old who wants Steve Webb: Benefit expenditure tables are published one, before they enter the Work programme. and can be found at: Official statistics for work experience and sector-based http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/budget_2012_300712.xls work academy starts from the start of the YouthContract The summary table includes pensioner benefit expenditure. in April 2012 to May 2012 show: Figures relate to Great Britain, or to people resident Work experience starts (April and May) overseas who are receiving Great Britain benefits, except Number for over 75 TV licences, which also cover Northern Ireland. England 8,130 Benefit expenditure in Northern Ireland is a matter West Midlands 950 for the Northern Ireland Office. 613W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 614W

Pay We are looking carefully at the findings to ensure that the offer successfully delivers across claimant groups Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and and that appropriate support is available to help all Pensions how many employees in his Department are claimants move closer to, or into, work. paid more than (a) £80,000 and (b) £100,000. [129344] Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of Mr Hoban: At the end of October 2012 there were the effects of the level of Work Programme referrals for around 107,000 civil servants in DWP.There are currently employment and support allowance recipients on the 112 employees paid more than £80,000, of whom 43 are income of the programme’s third sector sub- paid more than £100,000. contractors. [129335]

Universal Credit Mr Hoban: The Department has commissioned an independent evaluation of the Work Programme. This Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work will explore the experiences of organisations within the and Pensions (1) what proportion of households that supply chain, including those from the third sector. Any are actively seeking work will move to universal credit concerns these organisations have in relation to referral through the (a) new claims and (b) natural changes volumes for employment and support allowance recipients route by April 2014; [129338] will be explored. Findings will be available from early 2013 with a final report published in 2014-15. (2) when claimants of (a) housing benefits, (b) tax credits, (c) jobseeker’s allowance, (d) income support Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for and (e) employment and support allowance will start Work and Pensions which 10 local authorities have had to be transferred to universal credit through managed the (a) highest and (b) lowest number of residents change; [129339] referred to the Work programme since June 2011. (3) when he plans to start transferring claimants to [129336] universal credit through managed change; and what estimate he has made of the number of households that Mr Hoban: Official statistics on Work programme will be transferred to universal credit through managed referrals can be found on the Department’s website via change by (a) October 2017 and (b) December 2017; the DWP tabulation tool: [129340] http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=tabtool (4) what estimate he has made of the number of new Guidance on use of the tabulation tool can be found claimants that will move on to universal credit between at: (a) (b) October 2013 and April 2014 and May 2014 http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/tabtools/guidance.pdf and October 2017. [129341]

Mr Hoban: The universal credit migration approach published on 1 November 2011 set out initial propositions CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT for managing the build-up of claims to universal credit. The number of households that will be transferred to Problem Gambling universal credit; the proportion of households that are actively seeking work who will move onto universal 15. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State credit through the new claims or natural changes route for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps she by April 2014; and the number of people moving onto plans to take to monitor the prevalence of problem universal credit through a new claim will depend on the gambling; and if she will make a statement. [129119] detailed arrangements for managing the build-up of the case load, which are currently being finalised. Mr Vaizey: The Gambling Commission conducts quarterly surveys to provide information about gambling Work Programme participation and, through the Health Survey for England and Scottish Health Survey, is collecting data on problem gambling. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the Media Ownership effectiveness of Jobcentre Plus in placing jobseekers into work ahead of their referral to the Work Programme. [129334] 16. Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what plans she has for the future regulation of media ownership. Mr Hoban: An evaluation of the Jobcentre Plus Offer [129121] was commissioned in late 2011. The evaluation was commissioned to consider the operation and effect of Maria Miller: Regulation of media ownership is of this new way of working on claimant outcomes. paramount importance to the health of our democracy Findings from the first year of the evaluation of the and our media industries. Lord Justice Leveson has Jobcentre Plus Offer were published on 14 November been asked to consider media ownership as part of his and can be viewed at: report on the culture, practices and ethics of the press. I http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd5/report_abstracts/ will therefore wait to receive his report which is expected rr_abstracts/rra_814.asp shortly. 615W Written Answers22 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 616W

Digital Technology she has made of the future of football governance; and if she will make a statement. [129120] Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what funding Mr Vaizey: In their response to the Select Committee, her Department has allocated to each of its initiatives the football authorities have shown that they are committed to promote digital inclusion; [129351] to reforming the governance of the game. They have (2) what steps her Department is taking to promote already begun to implement this through the reform of digital inclusion. [129354] the FA Board. We expect further reforms, including the introduction of a new licensing system for clubs and Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and rationalisation of the relationship between the FA Board Sport does not fund any digital inclusion initiatives as and its council, by summer 2013. the Cabinet Office is responsible for digital inclusion. However, the Department does work with GO-ON UK including in the oversight of the Department’s broadband Training programmes, which are aimed at providing superfast broadband for 90% of the population and access to a service of a minimum of 2 Mbps for everybody else by Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for 2015, and will support and enable digital inclusion. The Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much her Government has committed a total of £680 million Department has spent on training courses run by Common funding for broadband programmes in the lifetime of Purpose in each of the last five years. [129320] this Parliament. Football Hugh Robertson: During the period for which records are held (from 2009 onwards), there is no record of the Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Department for Culture, Media and Sport having paid Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment Common Purpose for training.

7MC Ministerial Corrections22 NOVEMBER 2012 Ministerial Corrections 8MC Ministerial Correction The full answer given was as follows: John Thurso: The information requested is as follows: Thursday 22 November 2012 (a) The number of questions for written answer tabled in the period 25 May 2010 to 21 October 2011 (including those tabled on non-sitting days) was 410 per sitting day. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION (b) The number of questions for written answer tabled in the period 22 November 2011 to 17 September 2012 (including those Written Questions tabled on non-sitting days) was 329 per sitting day. Questions tabled on sitting and non-sitting days Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, cannot be readily distinguished. Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of The correct answer should have been: Commons Commission, how many questions for written answer were tabled on average per day, including non-sitting John Thurso: The information requested is as follows: days, in the period (a) 25 May 2010 to 21 October 2011 and (b) 22 November 2011 to 17 September 2012. (a) The number of questions for written answer tabled in the period 25 May 2010 to 21 October 2011 (including those tabled [121714] on non-sitting days) was 346 per sitting day. [Official Report, 16 October 2012, Vol. 551, c. 261W.] (b) The number of questions for written answer tabled in the Letter of correction from John Thurso: period 22 November 2011 to 17 September 2012 (including those An error has been identified in the written answer tabled on non-sitting days) was 285 per sitting day. given to the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Questions tabled on sitting and non-sitting days Ruane) on 16 October 2012. cannot be readily distinguished.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 22 November 2012

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 693 CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued 4G Network ...... 694 Topical Questions ...... 704 Access to the Arts ...... 696 Tour de France...... 698 BBC Licence Fee...... 697 Tourism...... 703 Cultural Sector (Merseyside)...... 702 Digital Television Reception (Baxenden) ...... 699 First World War (Commemoration)...... 695 WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 708 Leveson Report...... 693 Paralympic Games (Legacy) ...... 712 Lottery Good Causes...... 700 Supporting Women into Work ...... 713 Spending on Sport (Gender Audit) ...... 698 Unemployment ...... 708 Superfast Broadband ...... 701 Workplace Diversity...... 710 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 22 November 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 35WS JUSTICE...... 42WS Kay Review...... 35WS Data Protection...... 42WS

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 36WS TRANSPORT ...... 43WS Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council ...... 36WS Drink and Drug Driving...... 43WS HEALTH...... 38WS Warm Homes Healthy People ...... 38WS TREASURY ...... 36WS Banking Act 2009 ...... 36WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 39WS Immigration Rules ...... 40WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 44WS Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill...... 39WS “Reinvigorating Workplace Pensions” ...... 44WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 22 November 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 592W CABINET OFFICE—continued British Antarctic Survey...... 592W Voluntary Work: Olympic Games 2012...... 549W Broadband: Greater London ...... 592W Business: Loans...... 592W Exports ...... 593W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 569W Financial Services ...... 593W EU Grants and Loans...... 569W Grants...... 595W EU Grants and Loans: Cumbria...... 569W Groceries Code Adjudicator ...... 596W Government Procurement Card ...... 569W Manufacturing Advisory Service...... 596W Grants...... 570W Marketing ...... 597W Housing: Construction...... 570W New Businesses ...... 597W Non-domestic Rates...... 571W New Businesses: Barnsley ...... 598W Press: Subscriptions ...... 571W Regional Growth Fund ...... 598W Regional Growth Fund: Ashfield...... 599W Regional Growth Fund: Liverpool...... 599W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 614W Students: Fees and Charges...... 600W Digital Technology...... 615W Trade Promotion...... 600W Football ...... 615W Media Ownership...... 614W Problem Gambling...... 614W CABINET OFFICE...... 542W Training ...... 616W Crime...... 542W Crime: Yorkshire and the Humber ...... 543W Fraud: Credit Cards...... 543W DEFENCE...... 584W Government Departments: Computer Networks ... 545W Aircraft Carriers ...... 584W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 545W Consultants...... 584W Knives: Crime ...... 545W Defence: Procurement...... 584W Low Pay...... 546W HMS Ocean ...... 585W Public Sector: Procurement...... 547W Libya...... 585W Unemployment ...... 548W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 585W Col. No. Col. No. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 563W HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Trident ...... 563W Police: South Yorkshire...... 567W Prostitution...... 568W EDUCATION...... 560W Children: Abuse ...... 560W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 604W Royal National College for the Blind ...... 560W Bangladesh...... 604W Schools: Sports ...... 561W Burma...... 607W Special Educational Needs...... 561W Developing Countries: Environment Protection..... 608W Developing Countries: HIV Infection ...... 608W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 552W Developing Countries: Legislatures...... 609W Electricity...... 552W Developing Countries: Poverty...... 609W Energy: Housing ...... 552W Employment Agencies...... 610W Forests ...... 553W Grants...... 610W Grants...... 553W Haiti...... 610W Green Deal Scheme...... 554W Housing: Insulation ...... 554W JUSTICE...... 585W Hydroelectric Power...... 555W Community Orders ...... 585W Severn Estuary: Tidal Power ...... 555W Convictions...... 587W Warm Home Discount Scheme ...... 556W Human Trafficking ...... 587W Judicial Review ...... 588W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Offenders: Unpaid Work...... 589W AFFAIRS...... 550W Planning Permission: Judicial Review ...... 589W Cattle: Animal Welfare...... 550W Prison Sentences ...... 590W Compost ...... 550W Prisoners: Pay ...... 590W Livestock: Exports ...... 551W Prisons: Procurement ...... 591W Pay...... 552W Working Conditions...... 591W Plastics: Packaging...... 552W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 582W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 601W Coroners ...... 582W British Antarctic Survey...... 601W Northern Ireland Assembly...... 583W Burma...... 601W Omagh Self Help and Support Group ...... 583W Commonwealth ...... 602W Pay...... 583W Employment Agencies...... 602W Terrorism ...... 583W Middle East ...... 602W Pakistan ...... 603W SCOTLAND...... 603W A.G. Barr: Britvic ...... 603W HEALTH...... 574W Common Fisheries Policy ...... 603W Air Pollution ...... 574W Pay...... 603W Alcoholic Drinks: Children...... 574W Breast Cancer...... 574W TRANSPORT ...... 535W Carbon Monoxide: Poisoning ...... 575W Aviation: India...... 535W Care Homes: Fees and Charges...... 575W Biofuels...... 535W Dementia ...... 575W Bus Services ...... 535W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 576W Bus Services: EU Action...... 536W Employment Agencies...... 576W Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency: Post General Practitioners: Complaints...... 577W Offices...... 536W Health and Wellbeing Boards...... 577W Electric Vehicles: Safety ...... 536W Health Services ...... 578W Heathrow Airport ...... 537W Health Services: Homelessness...... 579W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 538W Health Services: Lancashire ...... 579W London Airports...... 538W Hospitals: South West...... 580W Maritime and Coastguard Agency ...... 538W Human Papillomavirus: Vaccination...... 580W Official Cars...... 538W Junior Doctors...... 580W Pay...... 539W Mental Illness ...... 580W Railways: Franchises ...... 539W NHS: Empty Property ...... 581W Roads: Shrewsbury...... 540W Pharmacy...... 582W Roads: Snow and Ice...... 541W Public Health England...... 582W Shrewsbury Station ...... 541W World War II: Anniversaries ...... 542W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 563W Crime: Plymouth...... 564W TREASURY ...... 556W Crime Prevention: Nottinghamshire ...... 563W Air Passenger Duty ...... 556W Emergency Calls: Hoaxes and False Alarms ...... 564W Business: Barnsley...... 556W Entry Clearances...... 564W Child Benefit...... 556W Female Genital Mutilation...... 564W Grants...... 557W Fixed Penalties...... 565W Insurance: Floods ...... 557W Immigration...... 565W National Insurance Contributions: Entertainers .... 557W Migration...... 566W Natural Gas ...... 558W Police and Crime Commissioners...... 566W Retail Prices Index ...... 558W Police: Cleveland...... 566W Social Security Benefits...... 559W Police: Conduct...... 567W Taxation: Aviation ...... 559W Police: Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 567W Taxation: Self-employed...... 559W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Universal Credit...... 560W Carer’s Allowance...... 611W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 611W WALES...... 582W Housing Benefit ...... 612W Pay...... 582W Older People ...... 612W Pay...... 613W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 611W Universal Credit...... 613W Atos Healthcare ...... 611W Work Programme...... 613W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Thursday 22 November 2012

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CONTENTS

Thursday 22 November 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 695] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Minister for Women and Equalities

Women Bishops [Col. 717] Answer to urgent question—(Sir Tony Baldry)

Business of the House [Col. 728] Statement—(Mr Lansley)

Voting Eligibility (Prisoners) [Col. 745] Statement—(Chris Grayling)

Police (Complaints and Conduct) [Col. 762] Bill presented, and read the First time

Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) [Col. 762] Bill presented, and read the First time

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism [Col. 763] Motion—(Mr Harper)—agreed to

Backbench Business Universal Credit [Col. 769] Motion—(Dame Ann Begg)—agreed to Life-saving Skills in Schools [Col. 775] Motion—(Anne Marie Morris)—agreed to Industrial Policy and Manufacturing [Col. 795] Motion—(Jonathan Reynolds) Motion lapsed

Petition [Col. 834]

NHS Trust Merger (Dorset) [Col. 835] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing [Col. 215WH] Flight Time Limitations [Col. 231WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 35WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 535W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 7MC]