Wednesday Volume 519 1 December 2010 No. 82

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 1 December 2010

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and the fact that this will cause extra difficulty for House of Commons people, so I am sure he will welcome the fact that we are maintaining the cold weather payments and the winter Wednesday 1 December 2010 fuel allowance. I am certainly happy to discuss ideas of getting together with the different energy companies to The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock make sure that they are properly focused on the needs of their customers. PRAYERS Asylum Seekers

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] 2. Anas Sarwar ( Central) (Lab): What discussions he has had with the UK Border Agency on the cancellation of its contract with Glasgow city Oral Answers to Questions council to provide services to asylum seekers. [26708]

5. (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): SCOTLAND What recent discussions he has had with the UK Border Agency on the welfare of asylum seekers in The Secretary of State was asked— Scotland. [26711] Energy The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (): The Secretary of State and I are in 1. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): regular contact with the on matters relating What (a) recent meetings he has had and (b) meetings to asylum seekers. I understand that the UK Border he plans to have with representatives of Scottish Power Agency is working closely with support organisations in to discuss the energy industry in Scotland. [26707] Glasgow to ensure that there is minimum disruption to those affected by the termination of UKBA’s housing The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): contract with Glasgow city council. I have regular meetings with the energy industry, including with Scottish Power, and will continue to do so, given the sector’s importance to the Scottish economy. Anas Sarwar: I thank the Minister for that answer. Does he think it acceptable that no detailed discussions John Robertson: I thank the Secretary of State for his were held between UKBA and either Ypeople or the answer. He says that he has had these meetings, yet Angel Group ahead of the decision to scrap the contract British Gas, Scottish Power and Scottish and Southern with Glasgow city council, even though they will be Energy have said that on no occasion has he ever made to take responsibility for more than 1,000 asylum discussed the price hiking that these companies are seekers in the city? Will he agree to meet representatives undertaking. When will he try to support the people of of all those involved in the dispute, so that he can make Scotland by doing something about the price hikes? an informed contribution to the Immigration Minister?

Michael Moore: What I recognise is the importance David Mundell: I will certainly be happy to meet the of ensuring that we get a fair deal for consumers, as well hon. Gentleman and other people who have an interest as for the shareholders—the companies are concerned in this matter. I know that he has already had the about that. As the hon. Gentleman will know, Ofgem opportunity to meet UKBA, and I think that he will has announced an inquiry into consumer protection share with me the positive view that although the people and competition in the sector. I expect that to be a very involved will no longer have a contract with Glasgow thorough process. city council and will instead have one with another provider, many of them will stay in the same properties (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ and that will minimise disruption. Co-op): I am glad to see that the Secretary of State was able to get back from Scotland to be here today, despite the cold weather and the travel difficulties. Given that Pete Wishart: Does the Minister even start to understand cold weather, and the increase in energy bills that many and appreciate the outrage that exists in Scotland about people have experienced, is he aware of the concern the treatment of asylum seekers? This is not just about among many of my constituents and many others that the Glasgow situation, appalling though that is; it is the most vulnerable people will struggle to pay their also about the detention of children and the operation bills, when they should be entitled to be on social of the section 4 card. Will he get down to the UKBA to tariffs? Will he therefore undertake to convene a summit explain that we look at these issues very differently in of the six energy companies to discuss, in particular, Scotland and we expect the UKBA to act accordingly? what they are doing to ensure that people who should be on social tariffs are on them, and that people in David Mundell: I do recognise that there are concerns Scotland are not left cold at home this winter? in Scotland about how the matter in Glasgow was handled, and the Immigration Minister accepts that the Michael Moore: I am glad of the hon. Gentleman’s correspondence with those affected could have been welcome, and I appreciate, as he will, that many people much better handled. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman in Scotland, and indeed in the whole of the United will welcome, as I do, the inquiry that the Scottish Kingdom, have been struggling to get to work and go Affairs Committee is conducting into relations in Scotland about their business today.He rightly focuses on temperature with UKBA. 803 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 804

Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I welcome Economy the Minister’s acceptance that the correspondence could have been handled better on the cancellation of the 4. Mr (Southend West) (Con): What Glasgow contract, because as a result of letters sent out recent discussions he has had with the First Minister by UKBA, vulnerable people, including many families, on the relationship between the UK Government and were left in a state of extreme anxiety about where they Scottish Executive with regard to economic policy would be living. Can he reassure us that lessons will be under the devolution settlement. [26710] learned from this, so that such mistakes are not repeated in future? The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): I have had a number of exchanges with the First Minister David Mundell: Indeed, I can give the hon. Lady that in recent weeks. Yesterday, the Scotland Bill was introduced assurance. As soon as these issues came to light, the in this House. If enacted, the Bill will strengthen devolution Secretary of State for Scotland was in contact with by giving the Scottish Parliament a financial stake in the Immigration Minister. There is a recognition that the Scottish economy while maintaining the economic the correspondence was inappropriate, and a number of strength we all desire from being in the . measures have been taken. For example, everyone affected will have at least 14 days’ notice if they have to move. has been made. The initial letter was regrettable, Mr Amess: Now that we know that the Scottish but the situation will be better in future. nationalist party—[HON.MEMBERS: “National party.”] It put Holyrood’s tax-raising powers out of commission HIV for two years without telling the Scottish Parliament. Does the Secretary of State agree that the Scottish 3. David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): What recent Government should be made more accountable for discussions he has had with the (a) Secretary of State their financial management to such an extent that there for Health and (b) Scottish Executive on strategies to should be a closer relationship between economic growth reduce the incidence of HIV in the UK. [26709] and how much money is spent?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Moore: My hon. Friend makes some interesting (David Mundell): I am in contact with the Secretary of observations. I can confirm that the Scotland Bill, if State for Health and the Scottish Government on a enacted, will provide exactly what he asks for. It will range of matters. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the empower the Scottish Parliament, increase its financial Government published their public health White Paper accountability and secure Scotland’s place in the United yesterday. As that is taken forward, close attention will Kingdom. be paid to the lessons that can be learned from the Scottish Government HIV action plan. Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Where the Scotland Bill makes a real difference to the lives of people in David Cairns: I am grateful to the Minister for that Scotland and to the Scottish economy, it will have the answer. On world AIDS day, it is worth reminding support of the SNP.During the passage of the legislation ourselves of the rather obvious fact that viruses such as in this House, will the Secretary of State and his Tory HIV do not respect borders. Will he reassure me that as colleagues accept improvements that will deliver additional the Government seek to draw up their sexual health and powers that will give the Scottish economy a competitive HIV strategy they will work closely with all the devolved advantage? Administrations to ensure a coherent and joined-up approach? That is the only way that we will slow the Michael Moore: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s spread of the virus, which has already claimed far too initial comments. As he is aware, the Bill introduced many lives. yesterday and the Command Paper that goes with it are the result of the work not just of the Conservative party David Mundell: It is indeed appropriate that the hon. and the Liberal Democrats but of the Labour party and Gentleman has asked his question on world AIDS day. others across Scotland. I hope that we will get proper He is to be commended for his work as chairman of the engagement. I am confident that the measures in the all-party group on HIV and AIDS and for his work on Bill get the balance right for Scotland. They are right the “Halve It” campaign. The Secretary of State will for this time and I am sure that they will pass the test of shortly meet the Minister for Public Health in Scotland, time. Shona Robison, and I shall ensure that this matter is on the agenda. Angus Robertson: The Secretary of State knows that Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): Will my many of Scotland’s leading businessmen and women right hon. Friend give an undertaking to discuss with issued a statement this week, in which they said that the Scottish Government the findings from the eight there must be pilot projects that the Department of Health is running “real economic levers to help sustain recovery and grow the to extend HIV testing in primary care hospitals and economy.” community centres? Will the Secretary of State and his Tory colleagues reconsider their plans and consider improvements to David Mundell: I am happy to give that undertaking. the legislation, such as devolving corporation tax to As the hon. Member for Inverclyde (David Cairns) help business grow? intimated, HIV and AIDS know no borders and the rest of the United Kingdom can learn from what has Michael Moore: I listen carefully to a range of opinion happened in Scotland, just as Scotland can learn from from business and elsewhere about the future of what is happening elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Scotland’s— 805 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 806

Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the Ann McKechin: Unfortunately, yet again Scotland’s Secretary of State. I do not know what the hon. Member youth are not the Secretary of State’s priority. His party for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) had for breakfast this does not think twice about dancing on the head of a morning, but I am not sure that it has had the desired pin. In its autumn edition of “Scottish News Extra”, effect. [Interruption.] Order. The hon. Gentleman must which is turning out to be one of Scotland’s better not rant at the Government Chief Whip or anybody reads, his colleague, the Business Secretary, is described as else. He must calm himself—it is better for his health if “launching a scathing attack on the previous government’s unfair he does. tuition fees which still have to be paid by Scottish students studying elsewhere in the UK. He likened tuition fees to the Michael Moore: If I can repeat what I was saying infamous poll tax.” before your intervention, Mr Speaker, I listen carefully Now that his colleague has said that he may abstain on to a range of opinion from across business and different the forthcoming vote to increase tuition fees in sectors of Scottish society. The business community to £9,000, will the Secretary of State confirm whether was well represented in the Calman commission, which he will support the increase, whether he will vote against produced and supported the proposal. We will continue it in support of the 3,000-plus Scottish students who are to listen to a range of opinion, but we have no intention directly affected, or whether he will be absent again of devolving powers over corporation tax. from the vote?

Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): In 1997, the Mr Speaker: Order. In replying, the Secretary of Scottish people voted to give the Scottish Parliament State must bear in mind that we are referring to economic tax-varying powers, but in a disgraceful and secret policy rather than higher education policy. decision, the SNP Government gave up those powers. I welcome the Scotland Bill. Will the Secretary of State Michael Moore: It is interesting that the hon. Lady assure us that those tax-varying powers will remain interpreted the question by seeking to get away from with the Scottish Parliament and that the Bill will be anything that might focus attention on Labour’s record phrased in such a way that, were the SNP ever elected on the economy and on our determination to create the again, it would not be able to give up those powers in a conditions that will get us back to sustainable growth secret decision? for Scotland and the United Kingdom. Scotch Whisky Michael Moore: As my hon. Friend knows, the consequences of the Scottish Government’s decision 6. Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): What not to maintain the Scottish variable rate have been recent discussions he has had with representatives of debated in the Scottish Parliament in recent days. The the Scotch whisky industry; and if he will make a fundamental difference between the existing arrangements statement. [26712] and what will follow if the Bill is enacted is that the Bill will create a Scottish income tax that sits alongside The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): United Kingdom income tax, and there will be a I regularly have exchanges with the industry and will be requirement to set that rate every year. That is a fundamental meeting the Scotch Whisky Association in the near change, and it will bring the accountability and future. empowerment that I discussed earlier, which will be a Mr Holloway: The Prime Minister’s recent trade good thing for Scotland. delegation to China succeeded in securing geographical Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): It is shocking indication of origin status for Scotch whisky. How that both the UK and Scottish Administrations are much will that be worth to the UK trade balance? failing to prioritise job growth. While there was a slight Michael Moore: The importance of the Scotch whisky fall in UK-wide unemployment last month, the jobless industry, not just to Scotland but to the United Kingdom, total for Scotland continued to increase. The latest is shown by the fact that it contributes roughly £4 billion figures show that in Campbeltown an astonishing to our economy, £3 billion of which is represented by 13 claimants are chasing every available job. Our youngest exports. At the moment our exports to China are very people are suffering the most, and if Labour wins in small in comparison with those to the rest of the world. 2011, we are committed to continuing the future jobs This important new concession—this agreement with fund to help them into work. Why is the Secretary of the Chinese—which we very much welcome, will ensure State set on removing that vital support, while at the that we can grow our exports in China as we have done same time supporting tax cuts for our biggest banks, in the rest of the world. which are at the root of our economic problems? Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): I Michael Moore: That was an interesting insight into declare an interest as secretary of the all-party group on the Opposition’s economic policy, although I realise Scotch whisky and spirits. What representations has the that Opposition Front Benchers are divided on exactly Secretary of State made to the Treasury in connection what it should be. I remind the hon. Lady that we are with the imbalance in the tax on whisky? dealing with the consequences of the largest deficit in peacetime history—£155,000 million. We took urgent Michael Moore: As the hon. Gentleman will know action to deal with that, which has drawn us back from from his distinguished position, the industry is well the danger zone. We will announce proposals in due represented in discussions with the Treasury at all times course on the Work programme which will replace the throughout the year, as it was under the previous future jobs fund. We are dedicated to ensuring that we Administration. I continue to have discussions with my create the conditions for growth and for a private sector-led Treasury colleagues on this very important issue, and recovery to deal with the problems that we inherited. will continue to do so in the months ahead. 807 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 808

Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The Secretary Michael Moore: All of us are very concerned about of State will know that only yesterday the Scotch Whisky what has happened to Ireland in recent months, and our Association said that the Treasury’s review on alcohol Government have set out some very important steps tax was a missed opportunity. Will he confirm to the that we are taking to contribute to the recovery in House today that he will make specific representations Ireland and other parts of Europe. We need to ensure to his Treasury colleagues for fair taxation of all alcoholic Scotland’s place within the stability of the United Kingdom. drinks based on their alcohol content only, and no The Scotland Bill, given its First Reading in this House other spurious issues? yesterday, will ensure that we give Scotland the tools to achieve that, and I hope that it will be an Act in due Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman has a distinguished course. record of following these issues very carefully. He will have made representations, as has the industry. The Mr (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): For review was concluded a few weeks ago and will report in every job vacancy in Lanarkshire there are 10 people on due course. As I said in answer to the earlier question, I jobseeker’s allowance. Indeed, in Motherwell and Wishaw, will continue to discuss these issues with the Treasury. that figure rises to 12 or 13. What priority will the Secretary of State give to the Lanarkshire economy to ensure that it gets back on track as quickly as possible? [Interruption.] 7. Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): What assessment he has made of the lessons learned from the Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many private 2010 Delhi Commonwealth games which could inform conversations of a noisy character taking place in the his Department’s contribution to the 2014 Glasgow Chamber. I want to hear the Secretary of State. Commonwealth games. [26713] Michael Moore: I recognise the challenges faced by The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland Lanarkshire and other parts of the Scottish economy (David Mundell): The Commonwealth Games Federation and by those who are looking for a job. As the hon. is currently leading a formal review of the Delhi games. Gentleman will be aware, I visited Lanarkshire recently The Scottish Government and Glasgow 2014 games and met people who are working their way into partners are participating in that review, and will be employment, and students at Motherwell college. We seeking to identify the key messages to inform planning have to keep focused, and we have to put in place the for the 2014 games. The Scotland Office will do whatever right conditions to ensure that we achieve a sustainable we can to contribute to a successful games in 2014. recovery across the country. I believe that the measures we are taking will ensure that that happens. Greg Hands: The Minister will know that one of Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) Delhi’s troubles was in attracting the top athletes. What (LD): The Secretary of State will know from his visit to will the UK Government do to ensure that the best the north-east of Scotland just how important the from across the Commonwealth come to Glasgow in region is, not just to the Scottish economy, but to the 2014? UK economy as a whole. We received a welcome boost this week with the announcement of the extension of David Mundell: As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, the runway at Aberdeen airport and improvement in most of the responsibilities in respect of the 2014 that transport link, but will he emphasise to the Scottish Commonwealth games are devolved and rest with the Government that all transport links in the north-east organising committee. I have already met the leader of need to be improved? They do not need new levers to Glasgow city council and assured him that the UK improve Scotland’s economy; they need to use the existing Government will do everything that we can to support a levers, as well. successful games. Economy Michael Moore: My hon. Friend makes an important point. Our Government here in the United Kingdom are committed to ensuring that we invest in infrastructure 8. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What that will support growth, and we have produced other recent discussions he has had with ministerial support for business that is geared towards growth, but colleagues on measures to promote economic growth in I take his points about the Scottish Government. His Scotland. [26714] points will have been heard, and I am sure that they will form the basis of further discussions between myself The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): and Scottish Ministers. I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on this issue. In the spending review, the UK Government VAT took decisive action to reduce the inherited record deficit. Along with the June Budget, the spending review has 9. Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): What set the conditions to promote a balanced economy and recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of sustainable economic growth for all parts of the UK. the Exchequer on the effect on average household outgoings in Scotland of raising the rate of value Julian Smith: The Scottish Government used to be added tax to 20%. [26715] very keen on the economic growth achieved by Ireland. Will the Secretary of State assure me that, as well as The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland taking measures to promote growth, he will ensure that (David Mundell): The VAT rise is part of the Government’s the First Minister has fiscal responsibility at the top of credible plan to tackle the largest deficit in peacetime his agenda? history. Difficult decisions are necessary, but as a 809 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 810 consequence we will get our country back on a sustainable trends remain mixed. This Government will continue to economic footing, to the benefit of everyone. create the conditions to foster sustainable and balanced economic growth. Pamela Nash: Does the Minister not agree that the rise in VAT—the most regressive tax, by his party Mr Davidson: What steps are the Government taking leader’s own admission—will hit the poorest in our to ensure that unemployment in Scotland does not rise society hardest, particularly in Scotland, where incomes to the level in the Republic of Ireland—part of the are lower and jobs continue to be lost? circle of misery? Does he agree with me that a small country and bad banks result in misery for working David Mundell: What I acknowledge is that the Labour people? Government left us with a deficit £12 billion larger than they had told us, and that if we do not tackle that deficit Michael Moore: I am happy to agree with the hon. everyone in Scotland will be worse off. [Interruption.] Gentleman that Scotland benefits hugely from being part of the United Kingdom, and under our proposals Mr Speaker: Order. This sort of noise is very set out in the Scotland Bill, it will firmly stay within the discourteous. I want to hear Fiona O’Donnell. United Kingdom.

Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): Thank you, Mrs (Epping Forest) (Con): Does the Mr Speaker. Secretary of State agree that current levels of unemployment in Scotland are the fault of 13 years of mismanagement The voluntary sector in Scotland plays a vital role in by the previous Labour Government and that the people supporting some of our most vulnerable families. The of Scotland need to back this coalition Government to increase in VAT will cost Scotland’s voluntary sector give Scotland a chance again? dearly. What is the Minister actually doing to support that sector, so that it can deliver his vision of a big society? Michael Moore: Since this Government came to office, they have taken decisive action to tackle the issues that David Mundell: This Government are committed to we inherited—a record deficit of £155,000 million. We supporting the voluntary sector in Scotland and elsewhere have pulled Britain back from the danger zone, we are in the UK, but the hon. Lady should tell people in that setting out the conditions for sustainable economic sector and elsewhere in Scotland that the rise in VAT is growth, and that is the right way for this country. a consequence of her party’s Government’s overspending. Economy MOD Hospital Unit 12. (Central Devon) (Con): What recent 10. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): estimate he has made of levels of economic growth and What discussions he has had with ministerial inward investment in Scotland. [26719] colleagues on commissioning a Ministry of Defence The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): hospital unit in Scotland. [26716] The latest official statistics show strong economic growth The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland in Scotland in the second quarter of this year. We are (David Mundell): Although there are currently no plans determined to ensure that Scotland will benefit as the to extend the existing network of Ministry of Defence Government tackle the deficit to secure growth, and hospital units, I can assure the hon. Lady that the provide the confidence that businesses and individuals Government recognise the importance of maintaining need to invest. world-class medical services for our armed forces in Mel Stride: Can my right hon. Friend tell the House the UK. whether those figures support the claim made by the last Labour Secretary of State for Scotland that the Katy Clark: Despite the increase in the number of right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) would be injured coming back, we have no MOD hospital unit in a “kamikaze” Prime Minister who would “plunge” Scotland. Organisations such as the Royal British Legion Scotland “back into recession”? Scotland believe that there should be one. Will he meet the Royal British Legion Scotland, myself and any Michael Moore: Funnily enough, I completely disagree interested colleagues to discuss the matter? with that assessment. I am pleased to say that not only has the Prime Minister led the Government’s efforts to David Mundell: Indeed, I am happy to meet the hon. get us away from the danger zone that the economy was Lady and any colleagues. It is important to say, though, in, but he has set out a constitutional path for Scotland that many military personnel are treated extremely well that will enhance its economic growth and keep it in non-military hospitals in Scotland, where they are within the United Kingdom. closer to their friends and family. Employment PRIME MINISTER 11. Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): What recent assessment he has made of trends in the The Prime Minister was asked— level of employment in Scotland; and if he will make a statement. [26718] Engagements

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): Q1. [27558] (Glasgow East) (Lab): If In recent months, the numbers in employment have he will list his official engagements for Wednesday been rising in Scotland, though overall labour market 1 December. 811 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 812

The Prime Minister (Mr ): This morning The Prime Minister: First, I thank the right hon. I returned from Zurich, where I have been meeting Gentleman for his kind remarks about the England decision makers, aiming to convince them of what a 2018 bid. I know that the former Prime Minister worked brilliant World cup England could host in 2018. On my extremely hard on it, and I know that there is cross-party return, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and support for it. We need to maintain that as we go into others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall the vital last 48 hours. have further such meetings later today. The right hon. Gentleman asked about the OBR forecast, which the Chancellor announced on Monday. Margaret Curran: May I give the Prime Minister Let me stress again that these are independent forecasts, Glasgow’s best wishes in the bid for England? I mean published for the first time independently, and not that most sincerely. interfered with by a Chancellor of the Exchequer. On In a recent Lib Dem leaflet in Scotland, the Business unemployment, what the Office for Budget Responsibility Secretary compares tuition fees to the poll tax. Is it found is that unemployment this year will be lower than acceptable for the Business Secretary to say one thing in previously forecast. It has not altered its forecast for the House and, when campaigning for votes in Scotland, unemployment next year, for which it is forecasting a to condemn that policy? rate of 8%, but it is forecasting increases in employment all the way through the forecast period. Above all, what The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Lady for what the forecasts showed is that our policy of trying to cut she says about the England 2018 World cup. I know she the deficit and get growth at the same time is working. would never mislead the House, so I know that what she said was utterly sincere, and I am sure it is shared by Edward Miliband: What the OBR actually shows is Members, whatever part of the United Kingdom they that growth will slow next year compared with the represent. forecast, and that is what will mean that unemployment On tuition fees, let us look at the system that we are will rise. What the Prime Minister needs to explain is introducing. Under the new system, nobody pays anything why unemployment will fall next year in the USA, in up front. Every single student will pay less per month Germany and in other major industrial countries, but than they do currently. Half a million students will will rise in the United Kingdom. Why is that the case? benefit from the increase in maintenance loans. It is time we started looking at the substance of the issue, The Prime Minister: I know that the right hon. rather than just the process. Gentleman is determined to talk down the economy, but even he will find difficulty in finding depressing statistics in the OBR’s report, because, generally speaking, Q2. [27559] Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): The Prime Minister explained how he is shuttling between what it reported was good news for the UK economy. It and Zurich in support of England’s World cup finds, and the last European Commission forecast report bid. Can he update the House on how that bid is found, that average UK growth for the next two years progressing, please? will be higher than in Germany, France, the US, Japan, and the eurozone, or the EU average. It would be more worth while for us to debate across the Dispatch Box The Prime Minister: I am grateful for that question. how we get the country’s growth rate up. What reforms England 2018 has a very strong bid. With regard to the do we make to try to make our economy more efficient? technical aspects, we have the stadiums, the facilities Has he got something to say about that, or is it another and the transport networks. We have the enthusiasm in blank page? our country for football and we can put on an absolutely first-class World cup. I know that many people will ask, “Are you spending too much time on something that Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister asks how we might not succeed?” I would say, “If you don’t get on to get the growth of the economy up—absolutely right. the pitch, you have no chance of winning.” We should What we should not do is put up VAT next year from all get behind the bid. 4 January and cut public spending by £20 billion. That is why the OBR says that we will have the weakest recovery from recession for 40 years. I come back to my Edward Miliband ( North) (Lab): I start by point about unemployment. Can he tell us when, over wishing the Prime Minister well as he plays his part in the five years of the Parliament, unemployment will efforts to secure England’s bid for the 2018 World cup. return to pre-crisis levels? That tests the strength of the As he says, ours is a fantastic bid and all of us will be recovery. When will it return to the levels before the hoping for a successful outcome tomorrow. recession? We note that the Deputy Prime Minister is away on official business, and left the country before the tuition The Prime Minister: We inherited an 8% unemployment fees vote, but of course we understand that he had rate, and the OBR says that it will be 6% by the end of urgent business to attend to in Kazakhstan and we wish the Parliament. He asked the question, he gets the him well in that. answer. Let me just remind the right hon. Gentleman of The Office for Budget Responsibility forecast on something. At the last election, the Labour party, himself Monday was hailed as a great sign of success by the included, said that if we cut £6 billion out of the Chancellor, but I want to test out what it will mean for Budget, it would end in catastrophe for the British families up and down the country. The Prime Minister economy. He was proved completely and utterly wrong. has been telling us for months that under his plans unemployment will fall next year, but on Monday the Edward Miliband: Mr. Speaker, have you ever heard a OBR said that unemployment would rise next year. Can more complacent answer to a question? Families up and he explain why that is the case? down the country are worried about their jobs and 813 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 814 unemployment will rise next year, and all the Prime Mr (Bournemouth East) (Con): Thank Minister can say is that it is some kind of rosy scenario. you, Mr Speaker. Let us take the rise in VAT, because that is one of the The Prime Minister will be aware that British citizens reasons why unemployment will rise next year. Can the affected by the 7/7 bombings were supported by the Prime Minister tell us what impact that will have on criminal injuries compensation scheme. However, when economic growth and jobs next year? such attacks take place abroad, such as in Bali, Mumbai or Sharm el Sheikh, no such compensation for things The Prime Minister: First of all, let me deal with VAT such as prosthesis and long-term care exists. Does the precisely. The former Chancellor, the right hon. Member Prime Minister agree that any Britons caught up in for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) said: terrorist attacks deserve our support, no matter where “VAT would have allowed you to pay off a sizeable chunk of in the world that attack takes place? the deficit.” That is the policy that the last Chancellor supported. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right If we had followed over the last six months the advice to raise that issue. People who are victims of terror, of the Leader of the Opposition, we would be linked whether at home or overseas, deserve our support, as he with Portugal, with Ireland—[HON.MEMBERS: “No.”] says. People might not know, but my hon. Friend’s Yes. We would not be standing here today discussing brother was tragically killed in the Bali bombing—that how we will get faster growth and lower unemployment; horrific attack that took place some years ago. We are we would be sitting around discussing how to rescue looking at this very difficult issue of trying to make sure and bail out Britain. that, when we consider criminal injuries compensation and what has been proposed for injuries overseas, we Edward Miliband: Okay, Mr. Speaker—[[HON.MEMBERS: have a fair and reasonable system. The Justice Secretary “Ooh!”] You can rewrite history for only so long. Let us is looking at that, and we will come forward with be—[Interruption.] Let us be absolutely clear about proposals. this—[Interruption.] Mr Speaker: Order. We are wasting the time of Back- Q3. [27560] Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): The Bench Members. Let us hear the Leader of the Opposition. Prime Minister’s Government are spending £4 billion so that councils can promote wellness, £2 billion on Edward Miliband: The deficit was 2.5% of national reorganising the NHS, £100 million on electing police income before the crisis—the recession—hit all around commissioners and £2 million on a happiness survey. the world. It went up all around the world; it was a Does that not demonstrate that the Prime Minister has global economic recession. The question is: should we lost touch with reality? cut too far and too fast, which is what the Prime Minister is doing, so that there are four years of sluggish The Prime Minister: No, it does not. Let me take— recovery—the most sluggish recovery from recession in [Interruption.] Generally speaking, I think the hon. 40 years? Why does the Prime Minister not answer the Gentleman should cheer up a bit. Let me take the issue question? Is this the most sluggish recovery from recession of NHS reform. Even with the settlement that we have in Britain for the last 40 years? Yes or no? set out for the NHS, which involves real-terms increases each year, if we stand still with the NHS and keep the The Prime Minister: This is one of the fastest recoveries current system, we will find it running into very severe in Europe, and the point is, if we had followed the right problems each and every year. So, it is necessary to hon. Gentleman’s advice we would not be discussing reform the NHS, it is necessary to cut out bureaucracy recovery; we would be discussing meltdown. He can and it is necessary to reduce management costs, so that have a blank sheet of paper about the future; he cannot we have a system where we actually try to create a have a blank sheet of paper about the past. We know we healthier nation and, therefore, reduce the demands on were left a record budget deficit; we remember “no our NHS. That is what our reforms are all about. more boom and bust”; we remember all the things that he was responsible for. I have to say to him that, after all Q4. [27561] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): that—and he has been doing the job for the last three Along with Jamaica, Nigeria and Vietnam, the Irish months—people are beginning to ask, “When’s he going Republic has one of the largest groups of foreign to start?” national prisoners in the UK. Given that we are about to lend it more than £7 billion, could the Irish Republic Edward Miliband: With that answer, it is no wonder be persuaded to pay for the incarceration of those that today we learn that the describes people by taking them back to jails in their own this gang as the “children of Thatcher”. It sounds just country? like the 1980s—out of touch with people up and down the country. Why does the Prime Minister not admit The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an extremely that he is complacent about the recovery and complacent good point. We are looking at how we can transfer about the people who will lose their jobs? And it is they prisoners who are foreign nationals from the UK to who will pay the price. other countries. Obviously with Ireland the situation is The Prime Minister: Not waving, but drowning. My slightly different, because of the long relationship between mother is still with us, so she is able to testify that what our countries. The previous Government announced the right hon. Gentleman has just claimed is not literally that they would not routinely support the deportation true, but let me say this: I would rather be a child of of Irish nationals from the UK; that was announced in Thatcher than a son of Brown. [Interruption.] February 2007. Since then, there has been a European directive that is helpful, because it makes more automatic Mr Speaker: Order. I call Tobias Ellwood. the removal of prisoners to other countries. But there is 815 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 816 still the specific issue with Ireland, and I will ask my The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary to The movement—just like the city technology look at it to see whether we can do a little better. colleges before it—has brought greater independence and greater authority to head teachers and has led to an Mrs (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): improvement in educational standards. If Labour Members The Government are cutting their teaching grant to have got any sense, they will not back off from it, and Liverpool university by 30%, to Liverpool John Moores they should tell their friends in the trade union movement university by 70%, and to Liverpool Hope university by to stop objecting to new academies. 97%. Is this a policy for closing down opportunity? Q7. [27564] (Wigan) (Lab): I have recently The Prime Minister: No, this is a policy to make sure come across workers in Wigan who were forced by that we have a strong university sector in this country. gangmasters to work 12 hours a day, seven days a [Interruption.] Opposition Members can object, but it week, below the minimum wage, and were threatened was the Conservatives and the Labour Government and bullied when they complained. Why have the Prime who set up the Browne review. I would recommend that Minister’s Government failed to take any action to hon. Members read the Browne review, because with tackle this issue? Will he join me in supporting the the alternative of staying where we are now, we would Gangmasters Licensing (Extension to Construction either have to cut student numbers or find universities Industry) Bill and help to bring an end to this appalling struggling. What Browne has come up with is a proper abuse? answer for a strong university sector for the future. The Prime Minister: This is a problem, and it is not one that has arisen suddenly under this Government—it Q5. [27562] Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) has been a problem for many years. There are problems (LD): Does the Prime Minister agree that when this with gangmasters not paying the minimum wage, and Government are devising policy they should look at the we need to make sure that this is properly policed. evidence of what works in tackling reoffending, substance abuse and youth crime, rather than relying on the tub-thumping, shroud-waving, ambulance- Q8. [27565] David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): chasing antics that pass for a policy-making process in Does the Prime Minister agree that the Olympics the Labour party? offer a golden opportunity to encourage more disabled people to take part in sport? Would he like to pay tribute to the Welsh Paralympic team, who we hope The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes a will be visiting the Welsh Affairs Committee in very good point. The fact is that with the difficulties of February? Should my right hon. Friend be available on the budget deficit and the spending problems that we that day, he would be very welcome to come and give have, we do not have any choice but to look at the his best regards. evidence and make sure that what we do works and is cost-effective. I think that we should start with the issue The Prime Minister: I am happy to endorse what my of drug rehabilitation, because if we can reduce drug-related hon. Friend says. As to his invitation, as he is an crime and cut those costs we will make very great amateur boxer, I should probably say yes immediately. progress. It is great that the Paralympics are returning to their birthplace for London 2012, and I am sure that it will be Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Will the a great showcase for sporting talent. Obviously, I wish Prime Minister carry out an urgent check on the satellite the Welsh team well. navigation system used in ministerial cars? My concern is that just a few short months ago the Deputy Prime Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): As the happy son Minister could not be stopped from driving himself of Paisley, may I too wish the Prime Minister well in his from university campus to university campus, but since bid to bring the World cup to the United Kingdom? he has got his chauffeur-driven ministerial car, he has Will he support the campaign of the historic town of not been seen near a student union. Is the sat-nav broke, Ballymena in County Antrim to achieve city status or has he simply lost his political direction? during Her Majesty’s jubilee year?

The Prime Minister: That was a wonderfully involved The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is not only metaphor. At least the Deputy Prime Minister can metaphorically, but biologically the son of Paisley—he make up his mind whether to join a demo or not—the is on safe ground there. I shall certainly look at the Leader of the Opposition cannot even decide whether matter that he raises. I know that campaigns for city to sit on the fence. status can gain great traction. Before I start endorsing every single one, I shall look at what he has said, but I Q6. [27563] Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): am sure that there is a strong case. Last week the governors of Christleton high school in my constituency made the decision to apply for Q9. [27566] Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): The Prime academy status. However, before they made that Minister may have noted that the Leader of the decision, they faced a barrage of opposition from trade Opposition approaches economic questions with the unions and local Labour party activists. What message acumen of a novice out of his depth. By the next would the Prime Minister send to those who seek to general election, families in my constituency will each undermine much needed reforms of public services in have paid back £21,000 in Government debt. Will the order to fulfil old-fashioned, outdated, left-wing Prime Minister resist Opposition demands to scale ideology? back on the deficit-reduction measures? 817 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 818

The Prime Minister: I will certainly resist those demands. meet my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and The fact is that we inherited a situation that was completely Broughton (Graham Stringer) in Collyhurst with unsustainable. Not just the Conservative party made tenants’ representatives to see how the matter can be that point; the Governor of the , the taken forward? CBI, the Institute of Directors, the OECD and the IMF were all saying that the previous Government did not The Prime Minister: I will make sure that the Minister have a proper plan. We needed a plan, we have got a for Housing and Local Government does as the hon. plan and we should stick to that plan. Gentleman says. The regional growth fund will be available for investment in those sorts of areas, and the replacement Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): I wish the of regional development agencies—the local enterprise Prime Minister well in his efforts in Zurich and hope partnerships—will, partly because they will be more that we will get the right result tomorrow. There was a locally based, have a finer-tuned ear to local problems great debate in the House yesterday on school sport such as the one that the hon. Gentleman raises. partnerships and there was consensus that something needed to be done. There was an offer from the shadow Q12. [27569] Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Front-Bench team to try to come to an arrangement on With the renewed prospect of travel chaos for British the issue. Will he look at it urgently with the Secretary Airways passengers, will the Prime Minister condemn of State for Education? I am sure that we can resolve the leader of Unite’s implied threat to families when he this matter, because it is important that sport is available said to them, “Don’t go on holiday”? to all. The Prime Minister: Opposition Members do not The Prime Minister: I know that the hon. Gentleman seem to think it is serious that we now have trade union was a very successful Sports Minister in the previous leaders who actually say that there is no such thing as Government. I thank him for his endorsement of the an irresponsible strike. There is such a thing, and those 2018 bid and all that we are doing to win for England. who are bankrolled by the unions ought to speak up about it. The hon. Gentleman’s point about school sport is important. I am looking carefully at yesterday’s debate. Q13. [27570] Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) We all have a shared interest: we all want good sport in (Lab): Every year, about 25,000 people die from schools and more competitive sport, and we all have to thrombosis in hospitals, which is two to three times ensure that money is spent well. Everyone accepts that greater than the number of people who die from not every penny was spent well in the past. There is a hospital-acquired infection, yet many of those deaths quite bureaucratic system. The Secretaries of State for are avoidable if hospitals follow the NHS guidance on Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport and for Education blood clot risk-assessment. What are the Prime are working hard on this issue. We are talking with head Minister’s Government doing to ensure that the UK’s teachers to ensure that what we come up with works on No. 1 hospital killer becomes the NHS’s No. 1 health the ground. I hope that we will be able to make an priority? announcement soon. The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an Q10. [27567] Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): The extremely important point, and I know that he is chair plans to link London and Manchester by high-speed of the all-party group on thrombosis. In answer to his rail will bring huge economic benefits to my question about what we are going to do, the first thing is constituency and the greater north-west. Does the to make available more information. It was a freedom Prime Minister agree that anyone who wants to of information request by the all-party group that showed eliminate inequality between north and south should that only 14 acute trusts in England were even close to support ? meeting the goals for risk-assessing patients submitted to hospital for the dangers of thrombosis and blood The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes the right clots. He is right, and the best thing that we can do is point in the right way. I understand that there will be provide more information. That will help us to ensure difficulties with High Speed 2 in terms of the impact on that hospitals are coming up to the mark. some hon. Members’ constituencies and on some neighbourhoods. However, it is true to say that Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): The Prime Governments of all parties for 50 years have tried to Minister will be aware, I am sure, that today is world deal better with the north-south divide and to bring our AIDS day. What are the coalition Government doing to country closer together. I profoundly believe that high-speed ensure that the tide of HIV is stemmed both at home rail and good transport links are a really good way of and abroad? making that happen. This measure could succeed where others, frankly, have failed. The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to raise that issue, and to say that we need to look Q11. [27568] Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): at what is happening both at home and abroad. Abroad, The community of Collyhurst in Manchester has the biggest decision was to maintain the commitment to waited patiently and stoically with its insecure doors 0.7% of gross national income going to our aid budget, and draughty windows, while it has seen huge and we make a very big contribution out of that budget regeneration across large parts of Manchester. The to the battle against AIDS globally and to ensuring that Prime Minister will understand the sense of anger and antiretroviral drugs are made available. We also have to despair in that community last week when the Minister look at home, where there are worrying signs of infection for Housing and Local Government announced that its rates that are still extremely high. We need to get the regeneration will not go ahead. Will the Prime Minister message out today and on other days about the importance or the Minister for Housing and Local Government of safe sex and the precautions that people should take. 819 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 820

Q14. [27571] Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Does the Prime Minister have just got back from a visit to Israel and the west think it fair that a war widow has to pay income tax on bank, and I was shocked to witness with my own eyes her war widow’s pension? 13-year-old Palestinian children in leg irons and manacles in Israeli military prisons. That is one of The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend raises a very numerous breaches of the UN charter and of article 49 good point. We need to look at all those sorts of issues of the fourth Geneva convention. Whether or not the under the work that we are doing on the military Prime Minister is the legitimate son of Thatcher, I am covenant—there are very complicated issues of pensions sure that as a father he would join me in condemning and interaction with taxes. I do not want to give a flip that appalling practice, but what will the British answer from the Dispatch Box; we have a proper process Government do to put pressure on the Israeli of looking at the military covenant, which is the right Government to comply with their obligations under way to do things. international law and to relieve the suffering of the Palestinian people in both the west bank and Gaza? Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Climate The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises an finance will be critical at the ongoing climate summit at extremely important point. Every country should obey Cancun. Although I welcome the fact that the Government the Geneva convention and the other conventions that have pledged £2.9 billion to the global climate fund, will it has signed, and Israel should be no exception to that. the Prime Minister confirm that any future money Ministers in the Government I lead raise those issues pledge will be additional to existing aid budgets, and with Israeli Ministers, as we should, and that is extremely can he say what further innovative funding mechanisms important. The fact is, what we really need is a long-term he plans to employ to deliver the UK’s share of the settlement of the Palestinian issue, and we want a annual $100 billion pledged at Copenhagen? two-state solution. It is very important that we put pressure on both sides at all times to ensure that we make progress. The lack of progress only plays into the The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is absolutely hands of the extremists, and we can see that all the right to raise that. Although Cancun will not achieve moderates in the middle east who are trying to make the binding global agreement that we want, it can make progress are being undermined by our failure to do important steps towards that, so we can stay on track. better. On climate finance, first, we will stick to what was set out previously on the limit in the aid budget for money Q15. [27572] (Witham) (Con): If the Human used for climate change purposes, although there are Rights Act is very real connections between climate change and poverty; “a glaring example of what is going wrong in our country”, and secondly, there is a commitment, which we will keep to, of £2.9 billion for climate change finance. when will the Government put the human rights of the Britain is a leader on that, but as she said, we must look law-abiding majority above those of dangerous convicted at innovative ways of levering in more money from criminals? other parts of the world, including—frankly—from The Prime Minister: It is right that we should be some fast-growing areas which, when Kyoto was first replacing the Human Rights Act with a British Bill of thought of, were very underdeveloped and are now Rights. I have personally looked at the matter long and fast-developing countries. We need to help them, but hard and believe that there is no better solution than the finance should not flow only from us. that. We are committed to starting a process of looking at that to see whether we can remove some of the Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): nonsenses that have grown up over recent years and Will the Prime Minister have urgent talks with the show that we can have a commitment to proper rights, Leader of the House and the Business Secretary on but they should be written down here in this country. introducing legislation for a national regulator or ombudsman for supermarkets before more suppliers (Falkirk) (Lab): The Government have are decimated by their conduct? announced an injection of £50 million of new money into the interim cancer drugs fund. Can the Prime Minister say whether there will be Barnett consequentials The Prime Minister: We have new arrangements in for Scotland, because that is new money? terms of ensuring that supermarkets treat farmers fairly. All of us as constituency MPs have heard stories about The Prime Minister: We have not made any changes supermarkets behaving very aggressively towards farmers, to the Barnett formula, so if that is Barnett-able, as it and it is right that there is a proper way of trying to were, there will be consequentials, and if it is not, there police that independently, so that our farmers get a fair will not be. deal for the food that they produce. 821 1 DECEMBER 2010 822

Point of Order Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 (Amendment) 12.32 pm Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): No. 23) On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I should like to secure advice on an answer that was provided to me yesterday 12.34 pm during questions to the Attorney-General. In response to my question—[Interruption.] Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I beg to move, Mr Speaker: Order. May I appeal to hon. and right That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Public hon. Members who are leaving the Chamber to do so Libraries and Museums Act 1964 to broaden the scope of the quickly and quietly? It would be helpful if I could hear general duty of library authorities so as to include a duty to the point of order from the hon. Lady—I might then be provide related cultural facilities alongside the library service; and in a position to respond to it. for connected purposes. At a time of global economic turmoil, it may seem Chi Onwurah: I asked the Solicitor-General about the strange to some to want to talk about culture. However, UK’s failure to sign up to the proposed EU directive on I would like to quote in favour of doing so one of this preventing and combating the trafficking of human country’s finest economists, Maynard Keynes. On the beings. He said that the UK was a signatory, and publication of the first annual report of the Arts Council repeated that in response to a question from my hon. in 1945, he said: Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma “The day is not far off when the economic problem will take Doyle). However, that is not the case: the UK has opted the back seat where it belongs, and the arena of the heart and the out of the proposed directive. Could you advise me, head will be occupied…by our real problems—the problems of Mr Speaker, on what is the best way for the Solicitor- life and of human relations, of creation”. General to correct his mistake? He was right about that. The economic problems that we face are real, many and serious; however, culture and Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her its role in our towns and cities is highly important. I point of order. The short answer to her question is that want to raise the matter in my ten-minute rule Bill, in the best way for a mistake to be corrected is for the order to put on record my concerns about what could Minister, if he has made a mistake, to correct it. We are happen to culture in some of our towns, cities and about to hear from the hon. and learned Solicitor-General. counties in Britain. There is real fear out there that there could be not just The Solicitor-General (Mr ): There cuts in the arts sector—everybody appreciates that there was a degree of confusion; the hon. Lady’s question was will be cuts and that the cultural sector will need to bear too general. I answered the question correctly. There are its share of efficiencies—but the total withdrawal by two European directives, one of which is signed, and some local authorities from providing cultural services. one of which is not, hence the confusion. The former I give the example of , which recently cut all right hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts, now Lord 160,000 of its direct grants to arts and cultural bodies, Reid, signed on behalf of the Government the European while Bedfordshire looks set no longer to fund its music directive to which I referred in my answer yesterday. service. I draw on my own experience as a councillor in The hon. Lady may have referred to a different directive the London borough of Southwark, where I had to that has not yet been signed, so we were both right and watch the local authority close the only children’s museum we were both wrong. in London. That showed me the importance of ensuring that local authorities continue to prioritise culture. Mr Speaker: I do not want in any sense to treat this Of course local funding choices are important. I matter with levity, but I hope the Solicitor-General will would not dream of telling local authorities what to understand if I say that that absolutely ingenious response do—by and large. The Government’s role in giving local is proof of the argument that no reply from a lawyer is authorities enough funding will have a massive part to ever simple. play in determining whether they can provide decent cultural services. Nor do I want to be prescriptive. I am The Solicitor-General rose— not introducing my Bill in order to tell local authorities that one kind of culture is good for them. Diversity in Mr Speaker: Order. We are grateful to the hon. and the cultural services provided by our local authorities is learned Gentleman. The hon. Lady has put her view a truly good thing. In my experience, great local authorities very fairly and squarely on the record. We will leave it lead on culture in places as diverse as , Merseyside—my there for today. I am grateful to the hon. Lady, and part of the world—and . We have some visionary indeed to the Solicitor-General. local authorities. I pay tribute to what they do in ensuring that our towns and cities are places we can be proud of, and where there are public spaces that bring people together to share in their history and heritage. The reason for my suggestion is to start a debate. The Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 gives the Culture Secretary an important role. It enables the Culture Secretary, if they feel it necessary, to say to a local authority, “You’re in danger of not providing sufficient library services. I want you to stop with those plans. 823 Public Libraries and Museums Act 1 DECEMBER 2010 Public Libraries and Museums Act 824 1964 (Amendment) 1964 (Amendment) [Alison McGovern] me examples of the work that went on to bring culture not only to Liverpool city centre but to the wider area They’re not good enough for the people in your area. of Merseyside. I know from experience in my own They need a library service that provides public constituency how empowering it was for the young education”—and for a very good reason. My argument people and older people in our communities when the is that this public education role should be extended to cultural services in the local authorities brought them the wider cultural service. There are lots of people in together to discuss their history and their heritage. We local authorities up and down the country who are need to ask whether that needs some protection in law. fearful of what is to come. My question is what kind of The 1964 Act has been a vital backstop to our library country do we want to be? Do we want to be the kind of services at a time when they feel under constant threat country where culture is, by and large, for those who of being de-prioritised, driven down and questioned. I already access it? Or do we want to be the kind of have every sympathy with local authority leaders, who country where culture is for everybody and where local are having to make terribly difficult decisions, but the authorities fulfil their responsibility in involving people? 1964 Act is an important check on what might happen. I know that there is a real appetite among local It ensures that we will never have to face the situation authorities to take on that role. When I put the word that my own grandfather faced when he was growing up out that I was seeking to ask leave to introduce my Bill, in the inter-war years. He used to go to Liverpool I asked people to come forward with examples. I would central library and, I confess, he used to steal books like to quote Councillor John Warmisham from Salford. because it was not possible to borrow library books for I do not know whether Councillor Warmisham agrees free at that time. The Act is important because it provides with my Bill—he might not—but he told me that the a backstop and enables the Government to question best example of what can be done is that of Salford any local authority that is proposing to decimate its Quays: library services. “First we had the Lowry, which attracted the Imperial War We all know the importance to our own constituencies museum in the north, and this laid the foundation for MediaCity. This will give us more jobs than when we had the docks in of the local art gallery, the museum and the local Salford”. theatre. We have all seen young people from our schools gain confidence from coming into the theatre for their That, coming from a local councillor, is a powerful first performance. My reason for introducing the Bill is example of the good that culture can do. simply to ask whether we want to be the kind of There is sometimes a view in the cultural sector that country in which those services are available to everybody. local authorities do not care about cultural services Do we want the Secretary of State to take responsibility because they do not consider them to be as important for those services? Such a task need not be prescriptive as housing or social services, but there are many councillors or demanding, and it would not require a large amount out there who really do care. I want this Bill to start a of funding, but it would allow local people to appeal to debate, to highlight those councils that do great work the Secretary of State and say, “Please stop. We don’t and to determine whether we need protection in law for want our local cultural services to close.”That is important the cultural services provided by local authorities. I for all of us. think that we do; and we at least need to have that Question put and agreed to. discussion. In Merseyside, we know—probably better than many Ordered, other parts of the country—the massive value of culture That Alison McGovern, , to places. Of course, this is about the economy, and I and present the Bill. must mention the impact that City of Culture ’08 had Alison McGovern accordingly presented the Bill. on Liverpool, Merseyside and the wider north-west. I know that people will understand the importance of Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on that, but this is also about the strength of community Friday 17 June 2011, and to be printed(Bill 118). that was created at the time. People have pointed out to 825 1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 826

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill who engineered a vote of no confidence in themselves, or who sought to trigger a series of elections close to [3RD ALLOCATED DAY] one another by refusing to resign after an election result. Further considered in Committee If a Prime Minister who would presumably be seeking to be re-elected in a subsequent election engaged in such [DAWN PRIMAROLO in the Chair] constitutional shenanigans, he or she would first suffer a political penalty at that election. If a Prime Minister Clause 2 behaved in an absolutely unconstitutional fashion, there would always be the ultimate long stop: Her Majesty EARLY PARLIAMENTARY GENERAL ELECTIONS the Queen could dismiss the said Prime Minister. That Amendment proposed (24 November): 5, page 2, line 11, is the ultimate check and balance in our system. Clearly leave out from ‘Government’ to end of line 14. it would require an extraordinary set of circumstances, —(Mr Cash.) but it is the position that would obtain if our unwritten Question again proposed, That the amendment be or other conventions were breached in a really appalling made. fashion. The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means Mr (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): (Dawn Primarolo): With this it will be convenient to By what constitutional authority does the Minister cite discuss the following: the extraordinary proposition that the long stop of the Amendment 22, page 2, line 12, leave out ‘14’ and constitution is that the Queen may dismiss a Prime insert ‘ten working’. Minister? Amendment 36, page 2, line 14, at end insert— Mr Harper: Her Majesty the Queen appoints the ‘(2A) In reckoning for the purposes of subsection 2(b), no Prime Minister. If the Prime Minister were to behave in account shall be taken of any time during which Parliament is prorogued or during which the House of Commons is adjourned an unconstitutional fashion, the Queen would have the for more than four days.’. right to dismiss the Prime Minister. Amendment 37, page 2, line 14, at end insert— Mr Shepherd: So that is the Minister’s new interpretation ‘(2B) Where the House of Commons passes a motion of no of a constitution, or of defined practice over the years. confidence in Her Majesty’s Government, the Prime Minister shall tender his resignation to Her Majesty within a period of seven days of the motion being passed. Mr Harper: It is not an invention; it is the constitutional position. (2C) On tendering his resignation under subsection (2B), it shall be a duty on the Prime Minister to advise Her Majesty to appoint as his successor the person who appears to him most Mr Shepherd: No, it is not. likely to command the confidence of the House of Commons.’. Amendment 25, page 2, line 24, at end add— Mr Harper: Yes, it is. ‘(6A) In this section a “motion of no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government” shall be— Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I cannot think of an example of such a position since the (a) in the terms “This House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government” or reign of Queen Victoria, who refused to accept Robert Peel as Prime Minister, and I think it inconceivable that (b) in the terms “This House has no confidence in the Prime Minister”.’. it would arise in a modern constitution.

12.44 pm Mr Harper: I did say that there would have to be an extraordinary set of circumstances for the Prime Minister The Parliamentary Secretary, (Mr Mark to behave in such a constitutionally outrageous way. Harper): Being in this position almost persuaded me of They would be circumstances in which a Prime Minister the merits of knives, which at least enable us to conclude was abusing and stretching the constitution in order to debates at approximately the point at which everyone stay in office and avoid the consequences of losing a else has spoken. vote of confidence in Parliament. I remind the Committee that the amendments deal with the mechanism providing for an early general Jacob Rees-Mogg: I think that that is extraordinarily election following a vote of no confidence, as set out in unlikely. It is theoretically possible that the Queen could clause 2(2). Last week, on the second day of this Committee refuse assent to a Bill, but that has not happened since stage, we engaged in a wide-ranging discussion both of the reign of Queen Anne. Such constitutional anomalies the merits of the various amendments and of the Bill. remain theoretical, but so theoretical that it is inconceivable Before I deal with the amendments, let me respond to that they would arise whatever the emergency. I really some of the questions raised by Members last week. feel that to rely on that for the passage of the Bill is My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest most unsatisfactory. (Mrs Laing), who is present and who speaks for the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, asked Mr Harper: I am not relying on it for the passage of a number of questions relating to the constitutional the Bill. I was referring to the issue raised by my hon. consequences of a vote of no confidence under the Bill. Friend the Member for Epping Forest, who last week, She was particularly concerned about the possibility of on behalf of the Political and Constitutional Reform a Government’s forcing a general election by refusing to Committee, raised some potential scenarios with which act both in accordance with conventions and in the she was uncomfortable. I believe, and the Government spirit of the Act. She gave the example of a Government believe, that those scenarios are indeed, as my hon. 827 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 828

[Mr Harper] Mr Harper: Her Majesty would, indeed, take advice from, for example her Privy Council and her other legal Friend says, theoretical, and extremely unlikely to happen. advisers. My point is that if a Prime Minister behaved unconstitutionally in such a theoretical and extremely : Let us be absolutely clear: as I understand unlikely way, a mechanism that already exists would be it, the Minister is saying that if the Prime Minister were invoked. However, the Government contend—and I “unconstitutionally”—to borrow the Minister’s word—to agree with my hon. Friend on this—that both sets of engineer a motion of no confidence in himself, for circumstances are highly unlikely. It is our contention instance by tabling a motion of confidence in himself that the eventuality to which my hon. Friend has referred and urging his supporters to abstain, the monarch would not be necessary, because a Prime Minister would would sack him. not behave in a way that stretched constitutional convention to breaking point. Mr Harper: I am not setting out particular scenarios. I was making the point that we can set out some theoretical propositions that have not happened and Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I must say that this is that we think are extremely unlikely to happen. I was the second very worrying route the Minister has gone simply setting out that if such a theoretical and unlikely down. He is saying that if the Prime Minister were to event, to use the words of my hon. Friend the Member behave unconstitutionally, the monarch would act. How for North East Somerset, were to happen there is a would the monarch know whether the Prime Minister constitutional long-stop. That was all I was saying, and had acted constitutionally or unconstitutionally? I think the hon. Gentleman is making rather too much of it as it is not a new point. Mr Harper: I am not setting out anything that is groundbreaking; this is the position that exists now. I Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab): Although agree with my hon. Friend the Member for North East we may well accept that the scenarios we are talking Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) that there would have to about are unlikely, they are none the less possible, and be an extraordinary set of circumstances; indeed, I said while they remain possible would it not be desirable for as much. I did so because I was referring to a point my the Government either to accept the Select Committee’s hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest made last amendments or, indeed, to bring forward some of their week in raising some concerns of the Select Committee’s own to make sure that should such unlikely events concerns. My view is that those concerns are not well occur, there is a clear road map for the sovereign to founded because the events they address are extremely follow? unlikely to happen and are only really theoretical in nature, but there is a response to them if they were to Mr Harper: The fact is that some of these things can happen. happen under our existing constitutional position; they are not triggered by anything we are providing for in Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Will my this Bill. Our flexible constitution has worked rather hon. Friend reassure the Committee that it is the well over the years in dealing with events that have not Government’s intention to fulfil their duty and that of been thought of in advance, and I see no reason to Parliament to protect the Crown from being put in a undertake a rather more significant constitutional rewrite. position where the monarch would ever have to make This Bill is intended to do one specific thing, which is such an important constitutional decision? remove from the Prime Minister the power to seek a Dissolution of Parliament. It makes the necessary changes Mr Harper: Absolutely. I can certainly say on behalf to do that, but it does not seek to make changes that are of this Government that this Government and this not necessary to do that; it does not seek to go wider Prime Minister would never wish to put Her Majesty than achieving that particular change, and I think that the Queen in such a position. Clearly, I cannot speak for is very sensible. Governments of the future, however. My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest also asked last week how the Bill strengthened the power of the House to throw out a Government. Giving statutory Mr (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): effect to the vote that could bring about a general I think it would help the Committee if the Minister election, rather than simply relying on the conventions, could cite an academic paper, some judicial text or strengthens the power of the House. The Bill transfers something else that bears out this notion that Her from the Prime Minister to this House the power to Majesty the Queen would interfere in politics in the way decide whether there will be an early general election. If he is suggesting she would. Can he quote anything? I remember rightly, my hon. Friend did, however, say that she is broadly supportive of the measures in the Mr Harper: The position is that Her Majesty the Bill, as, I think, is the Select Committee. Queen appoints Prime Ministers and the ultimate The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) asked constitutional long-stop is that if a Prime Minister a number of questions last week. He asked whether the behaves in a way that is outwith the constitutional Bill should contain a provision to ensure that a motion position, the monarch can dismiss the Prime Minister—but of no confidence is given precedence so it is debated that is the long-stop constitutional safeguard in our without delay. He is aware—he mentioned this last system. week—that there is a convention that the Government find time to debate a motion of no confidence tabled by Mr Jenkin: Her Majesty would have to take advice on the official Opposition. That is a long-standing convention, such occasions. From whom would she take advice? which has been followed by Governments. Also of 829 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 830 course, it would always be open to the Opposition to before. Therefore, would not the Labour amendment table an amendment to a Government motion, changing that specifies what is and what is not a vote of confidence it to one of no confidence to ensure that that was debated. be much better in everybody’s terms? The hon. Gentleman also raised a number of related points about whether particular votes could be considered 1pm motions of no confidence and whether it was appropriate Mr Harper: I shall deal with the specific amendments for the Speaker to rule on such matters. I think I am shortly, when I set out why the Government think that right in saying that he was concerned that the Bill would they are unnecessary and that their drafting makes give too much discretion to the Speaker. The Government them flawed. If the hon. Gentleman does not think I do not consider that to be the case. We would expect the have adequately dealt with his point, he will be able to Speaker by and large to take a fairly literal approach to intervene on me and I will happily take such an intervention. clause 2(2). We do not think the Speaker would be left We have debated the fact that there is also a purpose in with appreciably more discretion in dealing with this the Bill’s not specifying the exact words in legislation, sort of question than he already has, for example under because such an approach gives the House some necessary the Parliament Act 1911 when he has to certify whether flexibility. I will return to that in a moment. a Bill is a money Bill. That is a decision he makes; it is for him. It seems to me that that is a sensible amount of Let us consider the amendments in order. Amendment 5 discretion for the Speaker to have, although I accept it is was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone on a different issue. (Mr Cash), who is not able to be here today because he is away on other parliamentary business. He explained that his amendment would remove the 14-day period Chris Bryant: The Minister is right, of course. In fact, before an early election was called in the event of the at present Members of the are fiercely Speaker certifying that the House had passed a vote of contesting the Speaker’s decision on whether certain no confidence. It is right to say that there would be Bills are money Bills. My point, however, is that all that circumstances in which it would be appropriate to move that determines is whether or not it can be debated in to an early election when the House determined that we another Chamber, whereas under this measure it would should do so, and the Bill provides for that in clause 2(1). determine whether or not we had a general election and But it is perfectly possible that there may be circumstances the Government had fallen. That is a very big decision within a fixed term in which a legitimate Government to be placing in the hands of the Speaker, which heretofore could be formed from the composition of the House as has never been in the hands of the Speaker. it then stood, so it would not be appropriate to insist on an election. Members will have been elected for five Mr Harper: There are two issues there. I will not years, and they are able to give their approval to a dwell on the money Bill issue to any great extent, Government formed from within their ranks without because if I were to do so you would rule me out of the need necessarily to go to the country. The House order, Ms Primarolo, but I have read the account of the can decide to do so, because under our proposals if a debate in the other place to which the hon. Gentleman vote of confidence is lost and no Government can be refers and the other place is not challenging the Speaker’s formed within 14 days who subsequently receive a vote ability to rule on whether a Bill is a money Bill. It is of confidence, a general election would take place. It simply disagreeing with the consequences of that, and seems sensible to give the House the opportunity to test arguing that if something is a money Bill it is perfectly whether a Government can be formed. appropriate for the upper House to debate it in Committee My hon. Friend’s amendment contained a fundamental and pass amendments to it, recognising that legally misunderstanding about what a Prime Minister should those amendments will have no effect if the House of do in the event of a Government losing the confidence Commons chooses not to take them into account. The of the House. Two things can happen. One possibility, upper House is therefore not challenging the Speaker’s under our current system, is that a Prime Minister right to make that decision. remains in office but invites Her Majesty to dissolve the The hon. Gentleman is also not right to say that this House and call a general election. Thus the Prime is about the Speaker deciding, effectively, whether to Minister does not resign immediately, and that is what bring down the Government. That would be a decision happened when the House expressed its lack of confidence for the House. The Speaker would have to make a in the Government in 1979. Mr Callaghan did not decision about certifying something as a vote of confidence. resign when he lost the vote of confidence; he resigned As we debated last week, it would be extraordinary if only when he lost the subsequent election. Alternatively, the House were debating a motion of confidence—which the Prime Minister could resign almost straightaway the Speaker would certify as such—with everybody after losing a vote of confidence, as happened in remaining in ignorance of the fact that it was a motion January 1924 when the Government’s motion for the of no confidence in the Government. I simply do not Loyal Address after the Queen’s Speech was amended: think that would happen. Everyone would be very well Prime Minister Baldwin resigned and the Labour aware of the fact that it was a motion of confidence—that Opposition formed a Government. This Bill seeks to it had that import to it. It would be for the House to encapsulate that double-sided convention. vote on the matter, and the Speaker would then certify At the moment, if a general election has an unclear in a way that means the decision is outside the ambit of outcome, the Prime Minister is able to test his support the courts. in the House of Commons. If the House then signalled that it did not have confidence in that Government, that Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): As the Minister just Prime Minister would go and a new one could be appeared to touch on, under the Bill the Speaker issues appointed. Amendment 5 would insist that another the certificate only after the vote has taken place, not general election took place, and if the result of that 831 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 832

[Mr Harper] Two legitimate concerns are involved here, and they were touched on last week. There is a concern that the general election was unclear, we could end up having a number of business days in the 14-day period would be succession of general elections. Amendment 5 would curtailed or that the date of the no confidence vote force such elections to be held. In countries that have could mean that the date for the Government formation fixed-term Parliaments it is very common for there to vote fell on a non-working day. Our view—I am interested be a period of Government formation after a vote of no to hear the hon. Gentleman’s—is that discussions on confidence before an election is triggered. That is what Government formation would not stop on weekends happens in Germany, Greece, Italy, Spain and Sweden, and bank holidays; I suspect that they would continue, so we are proposing an approach that has much precedent, given that having a Government is probably the most which we think is sensible. We cannot ask my hon. important thing for the country. Friend the Member for Stone to withdraw his amendment, There are two ways around a scenario where the vital because he is not here and thus unable to do so. However, 14th day when the vote of confidence is due falls on a we urge Members who are here not to insist on it being day when the House would conventionally not be sitting. pressed to a Division. The first is to arrange that the no confidence motion be taken on a day that means that the House will be sitting Mr Jenkin: I have been in touch with my hon. Friend 14 days later. The alternative is for the House simply to the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), who makes things sit on what would traditionally have been a non-sitting complicated because he does not text people. He is in day. There is nothing to prevent the House from sitting, Budapest representing the European Scrutiny Committee, if it chooses to do so, on a bank holiday, a Saturday or a but he has suggested that it would be in the interests of Sunday. Non-working days are not days when the House the scrutiny of this Bill to press the amendment to a cannot sit, even though it does not do so. There are Division, and one or two of us will attempt to do so. precedents for the House sitting on such days when emergencies have happened. I believe I am right in Mr Harper: As I said, my hon. Friend the Member saying that the House was recalled to sit on a Saturday for Stone is away on parliamentary business and, as he when the Falkland Islands were invaded by the Argentines. has perhaps not reached 21st century methods of Holding a vote on whether a new Government did or communication, my words are unlikely to reach him in did not have the confidence of the House would be a timely way. So I can only urge him not to press his sufficiently important that it would be in order for the amendment to a vote, but I suspect that the decision on House to sit that day, even if it was not a conventional that will be for others, not for him. day.

Chris Bryant: As it happens, I agree with the Minister Chris Bryant: The Minister is right in relation to the on this amendment. However, the one area that it will Falkland Islands, and I believe that the House has also be worth considering on Report is whether it would be sat on a Sunday on the demise of the monarch. That is sensible to have a motion of confidence on the forming precisely why we did not specify “sitting days” in this of a new Government after a general election, which amendment; we used the term “working days” because should be treated in a slightly different way. Such an that is the language used throughout the rest of the Bill. approach would address the 1924 situation that he We sought to provide a degree of flexibility; otherwise, suggests. over Easter, when there are bank holidays on the Friday and the following Monday, there might be a sustained Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, period when the House would find it inconceivable to which has been raised by others. I believe I am right in sit but the Government might, none the less, want to be saying that the hon. Member for Nottingham North able to do their business. (Mr Allen), the Chairman of the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform, has said he is keen Mr Harper: For the purposes of this particular set of on the idea of installing Prime Ministers with an explicit motions, the only business that we would be talking vote in the House—he was speaking for himself there, about the House undertaking would be holding a vote not for the Committee. That would be a further change on whether or not a new Government who had been to our system and, as I said in answer to the hon. formed had the confidence of the House. Given the Member for Leicester South (Sir Peter Soulsby), we things that the Government are responsible for, it would have made the necessary changes in the law to take away be important to have a clear Government in place for the Prime Minister’s right to call an early general election, the financial markets and at difficult times. We know but we have not gone further. I shall think about what from experience and we can see it from what happens in the hon. Member for Rhondda said and see whether we other countries. Therefore, the Government formation think it has merit. negotiations would want to be concluded and it would The hon. Gentleman’s amendment 22 seeks to replace benefit the country, the Government and the House for the 14 days that we set out in the Bill for that Government the House to vote on that without inordinate delay. If formation period with a period of 10 working days. He there were a number of bank holidays or other holidays is supportive of a Government formation period, because in the way, that could be dealt with. [Interruption.] The he would not be attempting to keep one through this hon. Gentleman asks about Good Friday. As I have amendment were he not. I think he was wanting to said, the alternative is that we could arrange things by understand why we chose the period that we did, using moving the no confidence vote so that it was 14 days calendar days rather than working days. The reason before a sitting day. why we did so was because the calendar day period is Conventionally, no confidence motions are given time fixed and certain, whereas working days are not, as they in the House very soon after they are tabled, but as long are dependent on things such as bank holidays. as the Government were prepared to table such a motion 833 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 834 very soon and agreed that with the Opposition, it would Mr Harper: I think I have set out why I do not think not necessarily have to be tabled the next day. I do not that that is likely. As we have heard, there are lots of think that it is an inordinate problem. We think that it is theoretical possibilities that are very outlandish—I do sensible for there to be a fixed timetable for a Government not propose to rehash the conversations that we had to be formed so that everyone has some certainty. That at the beginning of this debate—but the Government is why we picked the time period that we have. do not think that they are realistic risks and that is why My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest spoke we do not think that amendments 36 and 37 are acceptable. in support of amendments 36 and 37, which are also Let me turn now to the last amendment in this group, tabled in the names of other members of the Select amendment 25, which was also tabled by the Opposition. Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform. It specifies the wording of motions of no confidence for Amendment 36 would make the 14 days in a period the purposes of clause 2(2). It aims to remove the following a Government defeat a period that would not discretion of the House over its wording and that of include periods of Prorogation or Adjournment for the Speaker in his certifying of a motion of no more than four days. Although I do not think that this confidence. The Government recognise that no is the intention behind the amendment, its effect would confidence motions might take different forms, as they be to permit the 14-day period for Government formation do now, but we do not want to remove the flexibility to be prolonged potentially indefinitely if the House entirely. That raises an issue, which we will come to in was prorogued or adjourned. The Government do not the next group of amendments, to do with the House’s think that that is appropriate. We think that the 14-day exclusive cognisance. period strikes the right balance between giving parties If we try to set out in statute the precise form of a no in this House time to discuss and see whether a Government confidence motion, that could raise the risks to which can be formed and not allowing things to go on for so the Clerk of the House has alluded. We think it is better long that the country is plunged into a period of uncertainty. for the Speaker’s certificate to be conclusive and for the We do not think that amendment 36 is acceptable. Speaker to determine the nature of that certification. Amendment 37 provides that a Prime Minister must As I said when we touched on this matter in debating a resign within seven calendar days of losing a vote of no previous group of amendments, if there were doubt—I confidence and recommend to the monarch a successor think it unlikely that there would be—about whether who appears to them to be the person most likely to be what the House was discussing was a motion of no able to command the confidence of the House. I think I confidence, it would seem to be sensible for the Government, am right to say—my hon. Friend the Member for the Opposition and the Speaker to ensure that Members Epping Forest will correct me if I am wrong—that the were clear on that point when they were debating it. I purpose of the amendment is to avoid a situation in cannot believe that there could ever be a debate in this which a Prime Minister who has lost a no confidence House about a motion of no confidence in the Government vote wishes to remain in power and asks the monarch to in which Members were sitting there completely unaware prorogue Parliament to avoid an alternative Government that they were debating the future of the Government receiving a vote of confidence, thereby forcing a general of our country. election. 1.15 pm Mrs Laing: Yes. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Of course, the Minister is right about the reality and the politics of Mr Harper: My hon. Friend says that that is indeed the situation. He should remember, however, that we the purpose of the amendment. However, I think are talking about a situation in which legislation has amendment 37 is defective, because it rules out the been introduced and that legislation is always challengeable possibility of what happened in 1979 occurring again. in the courts. Once things get into the courts, who As I have said, Prime Minister Callaghan did not resign knows what will happen regarding the interpretation of as a result of the no confidence motion. He remained in the provisions? For the sake of clarity and certainty, office, asked Her Majesty the Queen to dissolve Parliament what is wrong with setting out the precise terms that and resigned when he lost the subsequent general election. must be used so that there can be no doubt? That goes That outcome remains a possibility under the Bill. My to the issue in amendment 6, tabled by the hon. Member hon. Friend’s amendment would have meant that he for Stone (Mr Cash), which sets out provisions for the would have been forced to resign before the result of the avoidance of doubt. Surely there is merit in making it election was known. I do not think that that would have absolutely clear and plain. been a sensible outcome. Mr Harper: I shall not attempt to rush forward to the Mrs Laing: I fully appreciate the Minister’s point. certification procedure, because we will debate it when Amendments 36 and 37 might well be technically we discuss the next group of amendments. defective—in any case, I have no intention of pressing Let me turn to the specific amendment before the them to a vote, as I said—but the Select Committee’s Committee. I do not think amendment 25 achieves the purpose was to ensure that this issue was properly certainty that the right hon. Member for Belfast North discussed and scrutinised on the Floor of the House. (Mr Dodds) suggests would be desirable. It states that a Will the Minister reassure the House that he and his motion of no confidence “shall be”, not “must include”, colleagues are satisfied that it would not be possible so it is not clear whether the motion would have to under the Bill’s provisions for the Government to seek consist exclusively of the specified text or whether that indefinite prorogation in order to avoid a vote of confidence text could be part of a motion, such as if it were added and a general election? to a Government motion by amendment. 835 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 836

[Mr Harper] Bingham, Andrew Darling, rh Mr Alistair Birtwistle, Gordon Davey, Mr Edward The Opposition’s amendment tries to specify the text Blackman, Bob Davidson, Mr Ian of the no confidence motion, but does not try to achieve Blackman-Woods, Roberta Davies, David T. C. equivalent clarity as regards the motion of confidence Blackwood, Nicola (Monmouth) that would have to be passed within 14 days by an Blears, rh Hazel Davies, Geraint Blenkinsop, Tom Davies, Glyn alternative Government in order to avoid a general Blunkett, rh Mr David Davis, rh Mr David election. The amendment is trying to achieve some Blunt, Mr Crispin de Bois, Nick certainty—that was what the hon. Member for Rhondda Boles, Nick De Piero, Gloria said—but I do not think it does. I also do not think it is Bottomley, Peter Dinenage, Caroline desirable or appropriate to try to set out the text of the Bradley, Karen Djanogly, Mr Jonathan motions in the Bill. Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dodds, rh Mr Nigel The Government think that clause 2(2) provides a Brady, Mr Graham Donohoe, Mr Brian H. clear and practical mechanism that gives statutory effect Brake, Tom Doran, Mr Frank to a vote of no confidence. I have set out the Government’s Bray, Angie Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen concerns about the amendments and I hope that hon. Brazier, Mr Julian Dorries, Nadine Brennan, Kevin Doyle, Gemma Members will not seek to press them to a vote. Bridgen, Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Brokenshire, James Dromey, Jack Mr Shepherd: I should like to press amendment 5 to a Brooke, Annette Duddridge, James vote, with the consent of my hon. Friend the Member Brown, Lyn Dugher, Michael for Stone (Mr Cash). Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Brown, Mr Russell Dunne, Mr Philip The Second Deputy Chairman: The question is, that Browne, Mr Jeremy Durkan, Mark the amendment be made. Bruce, Fiona Eagle, Ms Angela Bryant, Chris Eagle, Maria Hon. Members: Aye. Buck, Ms Karen Edwards, Jonathan Buckland, Mr Robert Efford, Clive Hon. Members: No. Burden, Richard Ellis, Michael Burley, Mr Aidan Ellison, Jane Burnham, rh Andy Ellman, Mrs Louise The Second Deputy Chairman: I think the Noes have it. Burns, Conor Ellwood, Mr Tobias Burrowes, Mr David Elphicke, Charlie Mr Shepherd: We wanted to press the amendment to Burstow, Paul Engel, Natascha a Division, Ms Primarolo. Burt, Lorely Esterson, Bill Byles, Dan Evans, Chris The Second Deputy Chairman: I need to hear you Byrne, rh Mr Liam Evans, Graham pressing the amendment, Mr Shepherd. I need you to Cable, rh Vince Evans, Jonathan shout louder for me. I am happy to do it again, but I Cairns, Alun Evennett, Mr David need to hear the vote. Campbell, Mr Alan Fabricant, Michael Campbell, Mr Gregory Fallon, Michael Question put, That the amendment be made. Carmichael, Mr Alistair Farron, Tim The Committee divided: Ayes 6, Noes 498. Carmichael, Neil Fitzpatrick, Jim Carswell, Mr Douglas Flint, rh Caroline Division No. 136] [1.17 pm Caton, Martin Foster, Mr Don Chapman, Mrs Jenny Fovargue, Yvonne AYES Clappison, Mr James Francis, Dr Hywel Campbell, Mr Ronnie Turner, Mr Andrew Clark, rh Greg Francois, rh Mr Mark Davies, Philip Clark, Katy Freeman, George Hollobone, Mr Philip Tellers for the Ayes: Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Fullbrook, Lorraine Robertson, Mr Laurence Mr Bernard Jenkin and Clarke, rh Mr Tom Fuller, Richard Shepherd, Mr Richard Mr David Nuttall Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Gale, Mr Roger Coaker, Vernon Gapes, Mike Coffey, Ann Gardiner, Barry NOES Coffey, Dr Thérèse Garnier, Mr Edward Abbott, Ms Diane Baldry, Tony Collins, Damian Garnier, Mark Adams, Nigel Baldwin, Harriett Colvile, Oliver Gauke, Mr David Afriyie, Adam Banks, Gordon Cooper, Rosie George, Andrew Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Barclay, Stephen Cox, Mr Geoffrey Gibb, Mr Nick Aldous, Peter Barker, Gregory Crabb, Stephen Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Alexander, rh Danny Barron, rh Mr Kevin Crausby, Mr David Gilmore, Sheila Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Barwell, Gavin Creagh, Mary Glass, Pat Alexander, Heidi Bayley, Hugh Crockart, Mike Glen, John Ali, Rushanara Bebb, Guto Crouch, Tracey Goggins, rh Paul Andrew, Stuart Beith, rh Sir Alan Cruddas, Jon Goldsmith, Zac Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Benn, rh Hilary Cunningham, Alex Goodman, Helen Austin, Ian Benyon, Richard Cunningham, Mr Jim Goodwill, Mr Robert Bacon, Mr Richard Beresford, Sir Paul Cunningham, Tony Gove, rh Michael Bain, Mr William Berger, Luciana Curran, Margaret Graham, Richard Baker, Norman Berry, Jake Dakin, Nic Grant, Mrs Helen Baker, Steve Betts, Mr Clive Danczuk, Simon Grayling, rh Chris 837 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 838

Greatrex, Tom Joyce, Eric Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Russell, Bob Green, Damian Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Moon, Mrs Madeleine Rutley, David Green, Kate Kawczynski, Daniel Mordaunt, Penny Sanders, Mr Adrian Greening, Justine Keeley, Barbara Morden, Jessica Sandys, Laura Greenwood, Lilian Keen, Alan Morgan, Nicky Sarwar, Anas Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Kelly, Chris Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Scott, Mr Lee Griffith, Nia Kendall, Liz Morris, Anne Marie Seabeck, Alison Griffiths, Andrew Khan, rh Sadiq Morris, David Selous, Andrew Gummer, Ben Knight, rh Mr Greg Morris, Grahame M. Shannon, Jim Gwynne, Andrew Kwarteng, Kwasi (Easington) Shapps, rh Grant Hague, rh Mr William Laing, Mrs Eleanor Morris, James Sharma, Alok Halfon, Robert Lamb, Norman Mosley, Stephen Sharma, Mr Virendra Hames, Duncan Lammy, rh Mr David Mowat, David Sheerman, Mr Barry Hamilton, Mr David Lancaster, Mark Mudie, Mr George Shelbrooke, Alec Hammond, rh Mr Philip Latham, Pauline Mulholland, Greg Sheridan, Jim Hammond, Stephen Lavery, Ian Mundell, rh David Shuker, Gavin Hancock, Matthew Laws, rh Mr David Munn, Meg Simmonds, Mark Hands, Greg Leadsom, Andrea Murphy, rh Paul Simpson, David Hanson, rh Mr David Lee, Jessica Murray, Ian Simpson, Mr Keith Harman, rh Ms Harriet Lee, Dr Phillip Murray, Sheryll Singh, Mr Marsha Harper, Mr Mark Leech, Mr John Murrison, Dr Andrew Skidmore, Chris Harrington, Richard Lefroy, Jeremy Nandy, Lisa Skinner, Mr Dennis Harris, Rebecca Leigh, Mr Edward Neill, Robert Slaughter, Mr Andy Harris, Mr Tom Leslie, Charlotte Newmark, Mr Brooks Smith, rh Mr Andrew Hart, Simon Leslie, Chris Newton, Sarah Smith, Angela Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Lewis, Brandon Nokes, Caroline Smith, Miss Chloe Heald, Mr Oliver Lewis, Mr Ivan Norman, Jesse Smith, Julian Healey, rh John Lilley, rh Mr Peter O’Brien, Mr Stephen Smith, Nick Heath, Mr David Lloyd, Stephen O’Donnell, Fiona Smith, Owen Heaton-Harris, Chris Lloyd, Tony Offord, Mr Matthew Smith, Sir Robert Hemming, John Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Ollerenshaw, Eric Soames, Nicholas Henderson, Gordon Long, Naomi Onwurah, Chi Soubry, Anna Hendrick, Mark Lopresti, Jack Opperman, Guy Soulsby, Sir Peter Hendry, Charles Lord, Jonathan Ottaway, Richard Spellar, rh Mr John Hepburn, Mr Stephen Loughton, Tim Owen, Albert Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Herbert, rh Nick Love, Mr Andrew Paice, Mr James Stanley, rh Sir John Hermon, Lady Lucas, Caroline Paisley, Ian Stephenson, Andrew Heyes, David Lucas, Ian Patel, Priti Stevenson, John Hillier, Meg Luff, Peter Paterson, rh Mr Owen Stewart, Bob Hilling, Julie Lumley, Karen Pawsey, Mark Stewart, Iain Hinds, Damian Macleod, Mary Pearce, Teresa Stewart, Rory Hodge, rh Margaret MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Penning, Mike Streeter, Mr Gary Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Mactaggart, Fiona Penrose, John Stride, Mel Hollingbery, George Mahmood, Mr Khalid Percy, Andrew Stringer, Graham Holloway, Mr Adam Mahmood, Shabana Perkins, Toby Stuart, Ms Gisela Hopkins, Kris Main, Mrs Anne Perry, Claire Stuart, Mr Graham Horwood, Martin Mann, John Pincher, Christopher Stunell, Andrew Hosie, Stewart Marsden, Mr Gordon Poulter, Dr Daniel Sturdy, Julian Howarth, Mr Gerald May, rh Mrs Theresa Pound, Stephen Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Howell, John Maynard, Paul Prisk, Mr Mark Swales, Ian Hughes, Simon McCabe, Steve Pritchard, Mark Swayne, Mr Desmond Huhne, rh Chris McCarthy, Kerry Pugh, Dr John Swinson, Jo Hunt, Tristram McCartney, Jason Qureshi, Yasmin Swire, Mr Hugo Huppert, Dr Julian McCartney, Karl Raab, Mr Dominic Syms, Mr Robert Hurd, Mr Nick McClymont, Gregg Randall, rh Mr John Teather, Sarah Illsley, Mr Eric McDonagh, Siobhain Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Thomas, Mr Gareth Irranca-Davies, Huw McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Reckless, Mark Thornberry, Emily Jackson, Mr Stewart McFadden, rh Mr Pat Redwood, rh Mr John Thurso, John James, Mrs Siân C. McGovern, Jim Rees-Mogg, Jacob Timms, rh Stephen Jamieson, Cathy McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Reid, Mr Alan Timpson, Mr Edward Johnson, rh Alan McKechin, Ann Reynolds, Emma Tomlinson, Justin Johnson, Diana McKinnell, Catherine Reynolds, Jonathan Trickett, Jon Johnson, Gareth McPartland, Stephen Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Truss, Elizabeth Johnson, Joseph McVey, Esther Robertson, John Turner, Karl Jones, Andrew Mearns, Ian Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Twigg, Derek Jones, Mr David Menzies, Mark Rogerson, Dan Twigg, Stephen Jones, Graham Metcalfe, Stephen Rotheram, Steve Umunna, Mr Chuka Jones, Helen Michael, rh Alun Roy, Mr Frank Uppal, Paul Jones, Mr Kevan Miller, Andrew Roy, Lindsay Vaizey, Mr Edward Jones, Mr Marcus Miller, Maria Ruane, Chris Vara, Mr Shailesh Jones, Susan Elan Mills, Nigel Ruddock, rh Joan Vaz, Valerie Jowell, rh Tessa Milton, Anne Ruffley, Mr David Vickers, Martin 839 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 840

Walker, Mr Charles Williams, Stephen Evans, Chris Miliband, rh Edward Walker, Mr Robin Williamson, Chris Fitzpatrick, Jim Miller, Andrew Wallace, Mr Ben Williamson, Gavin Flint, rh Caroline Moon, Mrs Madeleine Walley, Joan Willott, Jenny Fovargue, Yvonne Morden, Jessica Watkinson, Angela Wilson, Phil Francis, Dr Hywel Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Watson, Mr Tom Wilson, Mr Rob Gapes, Mike Morris, Grahame M. Watts, Mr Dave Wilson, Sammy Gardiner, Barry (Easington) Weatherley, Mike Winnick, Mr David Gilmore, Sheila Munn, Meg Webb, Steve Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Glass, Pat Murphy, rh Mr Jim Wheeler, Heather Wollaston, Dr Sarah Goggins, rh Paul Murphy, rh Paul White, Chris Wright, David Goodman, Helen Murray, Ian Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Wright, Mr Iain Greatrex, Tom Nandy, Lisa Whitehead, Dr Alan Wright, Simon Green, Kate Nash, Pamela Greenwood, Lilian Nuttall, Mr David Whittaker, Craig Yeo, Mr Tim Whittingdale, Mr John Griffith, Nia O’Donnell, Fiona Young, rh Sir George Wiggin, Bill Gwynne, Andrew Onwurah, Chi Zahawi, Nadhim Willetts, rh Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David Owen, Albert Williams, Hywel Tellers for the Noes: Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pearce, Teresa Williams, Mr Mark Mark Hunter and Harris, Mr Tom Perkins, Toby Williams, Roger Jeremy Wright Healey, rh John Pound, Stephen Hendrick, Mark Qureshi, Yasmin Question accordingly negatived. Hepburn, Mr Stephen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Hermon, Lady Reynolds, Emma Heyes, David Reynolds, Jonathan The Second Deputy Chairman: When, after voting, Hillier, Meg Robertson, John Members remain in the Lobby behind the Speaker’s Hilling, Julie Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Chair, they need to be quiet; otherwise it is impossible Hodge, rh Margaret Rotheram, Steve to hear the vote in the Chamber. Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Roy, Mr Frank Amendment proposed: 36, page 2, line 14, at end Hollobone, Mr Philip Roy, Lindsay insert— Howarth, rh Mr George Ruane, Chris Hunt, Tristram Ruddock, rh Joan ‘(2A) In reckoning for the purposes of subsection 2(b), no Irranca-Davies, Huw Sarwar, Anas account shall be taken of any time during which Parliament is James, Mrs Siân C. Seabeck, Alison prorogued or during which the House of Commons is adjourned Jamieson, Cathy Sharma, Mr Virendra for more than four days.’.—(Sir Peter Soulsby.) Jenkin, Mr Bernard Sheerman, Mr Barry Question put, That the amendment be made. Johnson, rh Alan Sheridan, Jim The Committee divided: Ayes 202, Noes 297. Johnson, Diana Shuker, Gavin Jones, Graham Singh, Mr Marsha Division No. 137] [1.35 pm Jones, Helen Skinner, Mr Dennis Jones, Mr Kevan Slaughter, Mr Andy AYES Jones, Susan Elan Smith, rh Mr Andrew Abbott, Ms Diane Chapman, Mrs Jenny Jowell, rh Tessa Smith, Angela Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Clark, Katy Joyce, Eric Smith, Nick Alexander, Heidi Clarke, rh Mr Tom Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Smith, Owen Ali, Rushanara Clwyd, rh Ann Keeley, Barbara Soulsby, Sir Peter Austin, Ian Coaker, Vernon Keen, Alan Spellar, rh Mr John Bain, Mr William Cooper, Rosie Kendall, Liz Stringer, Graham Banks, Gordon Crausby, Mr David Khan, rh Sadiq Stuart, Ms Gisela Barron, rh Mr Kevin Creagh, Mary Lammy, rh Mr David Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Bayley, Hugh Cruddas, Jon Lavery, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth Bell, Sir Stuart Cunningham, Alex Leslie, Chris Thornberry, Emily Benn, rh Hilary Cunningham, Mr Jim Lloyd, Tony Timms, rh Stephen Berger, Luciana Cunningham, Tony Long, Naomi Trickett, Jon Betts, Mr Clive Curran, Margaret Love, Mr Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew Blackman-Woods, Roberta Dakin, Nic Lucas, Caroline Turner, Karl Blenkinsop, Tom Danczuk, Simon Mactaggart, Fiona Twigg, Derek Blomfield, Paul Darling, rh Mr Alistair Mahmood, Mr Khalid Twigg, Stephen Blunkett, rh Mr David Davies, Geraint Mahmood, Shabana Umunna, Mr Chuka Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Davies, Philip Mann, John Vaz, rh Keith Brennan, Kevin De Piero, Gloria Marsden, Mr Gordon Vaz, Valerie Brown, Lyn Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McCabe, Steve Walley, Joan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Doran, Mr Frank McCarthy, Kerry Watson, Mr Tom Brown, Mr Russell Doyle, Gemma McClymont, Gregg Watts, Mr Dave Bryant, Chris Dromey, Jack McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Whitehead, Dr Alan Buck, Ms Karen Dugher, Michael McFadden, rh Mr Pat Williamson, Chris Burden, Richard Durkan, Mark McGovern, Jim Winnick, Mr David Burnham, rh Andy Eagle, Ms Angela McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Byrne, rh Mr Liam Eagle, Maria McKechin, Ann Wright, David Cairns, David Efford, Clive McKinnell, Catherine Wright, Mr Iain Campbell, Mr Alan Ellman, Mrs Louise Meacher, rh Mr Michael Tellers for the Ayes: Campbell, Mr Ronnie Engel, Natascha Mearns, Ian Phil Wilson and Caton, Martin Esterson, Bill Michael, rh Alun Mr David Hamilton 841 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 842

NOES Jones, Mr David Prisk, Mr Mark Jones, Mr Marcus Pritchard, Mark Adams, Nigel Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kawczynski, Daniel Pugh, Dr John Afriyie, Adam Dunne, Mr Philip Kelly, Chris Raab, Mr Dominic Aldous, Peter Ellis, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Randall, rh Mr John Andrew, Stuart Ellison, Jane Kwarteng, Kwasi Reckless, Mark Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Ellwood, Mr Tobias Laing, Mrs Eleanor Redwood, rh Mr John Bacon, Mr Richard Elphicke, Charlie Lamb, Norman Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bagshawe, Ms Louise Evans, Graham Lancaster, Mark Reid, Mr Alan Baker, Norman Evans, Jonathan Latham, Pauline Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Baker, Steve Evennett, Mr David Leadsom, Andrea Robertson, Mr Laurence Baldry, Tony Fabricant, Michael Lee, Jessica Rogerson, Dan Baldwin, Harriett Fallon, Michael Lee, Dr Phillip Ruffley, Mr David Barclay, Stephen Farron, Tim Leech, Mr , Bob Barker, Gregory Featherstone, Lynne Lefroy, Jeremy Rutley, David Barwell, Gavin Foster, Mr Don Leigh, Mr Edward Sanders, Mr Adrian Bebb, Guto Francois, rh Mr Mark Leslie, Charlotte Sandys, Laura Beith, rh Sir Alan Freeman, George Lewis, Brandon Scott, Mr Lee Benyon, Richard Fullbrook, Lorraine Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Fuller, Richard Lloyd, Stephen Shannon, Jim Berry, Jake Gale, Mr Roger Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Shapps, rh Grant Bingham, Andrew Garnier, Mr Edward Lopresti, Jack Sharma, Alok Birtwistle, Gordon Garnier, Mark Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Blackman, Bob Gauke, Mr David Luff, Peter Simmonds, Mark Blackwood, Nicola George, Andrew Lumley, Karen Simpson, David Blunt, Mr Crispin Gibb, Mr Nick Macleod, Mary Simpson, Mr Keith Boles, Nick Glen, John MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Skidmore, Chris Bottomley, Peter Goldsmith, Zac Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Bradley, Karen Goodwill, Mr Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Julian Brady, Mr Graham Gove, rh Michael Maynard, Paul Smith, Sir Robert Brake, Tom Graham, Richard McCartney, Jason Soames, Nicholas Bray, Angie Grant, Mrs Helen McCartney, Karl Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Brazier, Mr Julian Gray, Mr James McPartland, Stephen Stanley, rh Sir John Bridgen, Andrew Grayling, rh Chris McVey, Esther Stephenson, Andrew Brokenshire, James Green, Damian Menzies, Mark Stevenson, John Brooke, Annette Greening, Justine Mercer, Patrick Stewart, Bob Browne, Mr Jeremy Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Bruce, Fiona Griffiths, Andrew Miller, Maria Stewart, Rory Buckland, Mr Robert Gummer, Ben Mills, Nigel Streeter, Mr Gary Burley, Mr Aidan Hague, rh Mr William Milton, Anne Stride, Mel Burns, Conor Halfon, Robert Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stuart, Mr Graham Burrowes, Mr David Hames, Duncan Mordaunt, Penny Stunell, Andrew Burstow, Paul Hammond, rh Mr Philip Morgan, Nicky Sturdy, Julian Burt, Lorely Hammond, Stephen Morris, Anne Marie Swales, Ian Byles, Dan Hands, Greg Morris, David Swayne, Mr Desmond Cable, rh Vince Harper, Mr Mark Morris, James Swinson, Jo Cairns, Alun Harrington, Richard Mosley, Stephen Swire, Mr Hugo Campbell, Mr Gregory Harris, Rebecca Mowat, David Syms, Mr Robert Carmichael, Mr Alistair Hart, Simon Mulholland, Greg Teather, Sarah Carmichael, Neil Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mundell, rh David Thurso, John Carswell, Mr Douglas Heald, Mr Oliver Murray, Sheryll Timpson, Mr Edward Clappison, Mr James Heath, Mr David Murrison, Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Clark, rh Greg Heaton-Harris, Chris Neill, Robert Truss, Elizabeth Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hemming, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Uppal, Paul Coffey, Dr Thérèse Henderson, Gordon Newton, Sarah Vaizey, Mr Edward Collins, Damian Hendry, Charles Nokes, Caroline Vickers, Martin Colvile, Oliver Herbert, rh Nick Norman, Jesse Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hinds, Damian O’Brien, Mr Stephen Walker, Mr Charles Crabb, Stephen Hollingbery, George Offord, Mr Matthew Walker, Mr Robin Crockart, Mike Holloway, Mr Adam Ollerenshaw, Eric Wallace, Mr Ben Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kris Davey, Mr Edward Horwood, Martin Opperman, Guy Watkinson, Angela Davies, David T. C. Hosie, Stewart Ottaway, Richard Weatherley, Mike (Monmouth) Howarth, Mr Gerald Paice, Mr James Webb, Steve Davies, Glyn Howell, John Paisley, Ian Wheeler, Heather Davis, rh Mr David Hughes, Simon Patel, Priti White, Chris de Bois, Nick Huhne, rh Chris Paterson, rh Mr Owen Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Dinenage, Caroline Huppert, Dr Julian Pawsey, Mark Whittaker, Craig Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hurd, Mr Nick Penning, Mike Wiggin, Bill Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jackson, Mr Stewart Percy, Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Williams, Hywel Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Joseph Pincher, Christopher Williams, Mr Mark Duddridge, James Jones, Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Williams, Roger 843 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 844

Williams, Stephen Wright, Simon The present situation begs for something that many Williamson, Gavin Yeo, Mr Tim have recommended for some time: that this Parliament Willott, Jenny Young, rh Sir George should have a privilege Act to delineate clearly the Wilson, Mr Rob Zahawi, Nadhim immunities of Parliament in relation to the functioning Wilson, Sammy Tellers for the Noes: of the courts, but we are in an even more tense situation Wollaston, Dr Sarah Mark Hunter and because we are arranging our constitution in other Wright, Jeremy Mr areas that question the very sovereignty of the House. We now have a Supreme Court and it is widely known Question accordingly negatived. that many jurists who serve at various levels of the judiciary take differing views of the notions of Mr Jenkin: I beg to move amendment 6, page 2, line parliamentary sovereignty and parliamentary privilege. 15, leave out subsection (3) and insert— There was recently a case concerning the possible effective expulsion of an hon. Member as a result of a judicial ‘(3) Any certificate of the Speaker of the House of Commons given under this section shall be conclusive for all purposes and decision. I do not comment on its merits as it is still sub shall not be presented to or questioned in any court of law judice. I merely advert to the fact that it represents whatsoever.’. another testing of the boundaries between the courts and Parliament. The Second Deputy Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: We are told not to worry—the Bill’s provisions are immune from the courts, and nobody is going to interfere Amendment 23, page 2, line 17, at end insert— in what we decide is a Speaker’s certificate, certificating ‘(4A) The Speaker shall issue a certificate under subsection (1) a vote of no confidence that satisfies the majority. or (2) within 24 hours of the relevant conditions being met under When we are blandly and bluntly told that by the subsection (1) or (2).’. Government and at the same time told by the Clerk of the House who has bravely and independently—in his Mr Jenkin: Amendment 6 stands in the name of my constitutional capacity as an independent guardian of hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), who, as I our constitutional arrangements—issued a memorandum, mentioned earlier, is abroad on other House business as to which I shall refer later, that flatly contradicts the Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee. Government’s view, we are obliged to take the matter We are at a curious juncture in the Bill and, indeed, in very seriously. our constitutional history. The background to the amendment is the tension, since time immemorial, between I cannot think of a precedent, other than the this House’s ability to function immune from judicial Parliamentary Standards Bill, where a Government flatly interference, and the courts, which periodically have refused to accept the advice of the Clerk of the House sought to limit the extent to which we can continue our on a question of the potential justiciability of legislation business unimpeded by the courts. That was, of course before the House. The Bill before us is a major change settled—to a degree—in the Bill of Rights in 1789— to the constitutional settlement of this country, and it is backed by people in the Government who we know Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) favour a written constitution—an entirely different (Con): 1689. constitutional settlement. That raises the question whether the Government have got it right when they say that the Mr Jenkin: Sorry, 1689. My hon. and learned Friend Clerk’s fears are to be disregarded. will keep me up to the mark, because he is much more With the indulgence of the Committee, I shall quote of a lawyer than I am. rather extensively from the memorandum submitted by In recent years, however, the tension between the the Clerk as written evidence to the Political and courts and the independence of this House has been Constitutional Reform Committee. He states that the thrown into relief. I remind the Committee of cases Bill is such as the one brought by Lord Rees-Mogg for judicial review of the ratification of the Maastricht treaty after “to make statutory provision for matters which fall within Parliament’s exclusive cognizance and which may affect the established privileges this House had passed an Act of Parliament. of the House of Commons as well as upsetting the essential comity which has been established over a long period between Jacob Rees-Mogg: I would like to clarify that the Parliament and the Courts.” judicial review case brought by my noble kinsman was not in any way to challenge what had happened in this Erskine May makes it clear that “cognizance” refers to House. It was to challenge the use by Ministers of the the right of both Houses royal prerogative, which is why the judicial review was “to be the sole judge of their own proceedings, and to settle—or allowed by the courts. depart from—their own codes of procedure.” The Clerk is clear in a bald statement in paragraph 12 Mr Jenkin: I stand corrected—again. I fear that that of his memorandum: may occur rather often during my presentation. The case relating to the Hunting Act 2004 was certainly an “The Bill brings the internal proceedings of the House into the attempt to impede the free functioning of Parliament in ambit of the Courts, albeit indirectly by the route of Speaker’s its judicial function. In addition, an attempt was made certificates.” to judicially review the lack of a referendum on what He goes on to explain how that occurs under clause 2(2), was then the Lisbon treaty. There are other examples of which we have already debated. In paragraph 16 he that tension, not least over the arrest of my hon. Friend states: the Member for Ashford (), and I believe “The provisions of this subsection make the Speaker’s consideration that only today, in connection with another matter, are of confidence motions and the House’s practices justiciable questions the limits of the courts being resolved. for determination by the ordinary courts.” 845 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 846

That should be obvious. We know that Crown I quote again from the Clerk’s memorandum: prerogative, as exercised by the Prime Minister, is subject “As these would become justiciable questions, the courts could to judicial review. We know that statute is subject to be drawn into matters of acute political controversy.” judicial review. We know that proceedings in the House I respect the fact that many in the House think we and Standing Orders have not hitherto been subject to should have a Supreme Court like the European Court judicial review or judicial question. The Bill provides a of Justice in the European Union or the Supreme Court connection between what happens in the House and in of the United States, which is essentially a political the rest of the world. We are providing a bridge of law court, but that is a very big constitutional change. We that brings the courts into the House. ought to have a royal commission about it, there ought to be debates on the Adjournment about it and the Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Does implications of drawing the courts into politics, if that the hon. Gentleman think, therefore, that the amendment is what we are going to do, ought to be properly goes far enough? The solution, as the Clerk of the explored. The way in which the Supreme Court is House sees it, is for the Speaker’s certificate to be appointed to make it accountable for its political judgments provided for not in statute but under a Standing Order, is another important question. which would prevent the courts from interfering in the proceedings of the House. We are importing continental and American-style jurisprudence into our judicial decision making. Some Mr Jenkin: The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely judges are becoming more and more adventurous about important point, to which I shall return. The entire Bill how they interpret statute and where they feel entitled could be dealt with through Standing Orders. The only to make judicial interpretations, and the Bill invites reason we have a Bill is either that a Bill is favoured by them to decide when there might be a general election those who want to move towards a written constitution—I under particular circumstances. do not remember that being in anybody’s manifesto— Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) Chris Bryant: Ours. (Con): Will my hon. Friend distinguish between two things: judicial activism, where there is extraordinarily Mr Jenkin: There we are. Perhaps that is why the little evidence that judges in this country are overreaching, Opposition support the Bill. We have just had a Division although the same is not necessarily true in Europe and in which 400 right hon. and hon. Members were in the in the European Court, and impingement on the No Lobby and only a handful of us in the Aye Lobby. prerogatives of Parliaments, which is what the Bill That underlines the curious consensus in favour of covers? We should be focusing on the latter point. certain principles of the Bill. I do not think either of the elected parties in the coalition was in favour of a written 2pm constitution—[Interruption.] That is two parties, but the one that won the election certainly did not— Mr Jenkin: I am perfectly prepared to accept that point. I refer to judicial activism only because there are Chris Bryant: To clarify, I think the Liberal Democrats champions of judicial activism who would like the were in favour of a written constitution, and we were in courts to be more judicially activist. The Bill creates favour of looking at a written constitution. circumstances whereby we tempt judicial activism, which is contrary to our legal traditions. It increases the Mr Jenkin: I do not remember that being a great issue danger of the Government’s assurances simply not being in the general election, but we are, in effect, creating one delivered, or of their not being able to make these of the standard features of a written constitution, thereby assurances with any confidence. tempting the courts to start interfering in the internal workings of the House. The Clerk, in his memorandum, specifically says: “In the case of Clause 2(3) it would be for the court to Mr Harper: For the avoidance of doubt, the determine whether a document issued by the Speaker was a Government’s position is that they are not in favour of ‘certificate’ for the purposes of that clause. It is not impossible for moving to what is more accurately said to be a codified a court to take the view that what appeared to be a certificate was constitution. Many of our constitutional principles are, not a ‘certificate’”. of course, written down, just not in one document. It is The memorandum has been considered by the Select not the Government’s position to do so. I hope that Committee, which attempted, in the short time available, cheers my hon. Friend up. to conduct pre-legislative scrutiny. It reached two principal conclusions. Paragraph 8 states: Mr Jenkin: I am grateful for that assurance. The “The Government needs to respond to the concerns expressed Minister, who in all these debates has shown impeccable by the Clerk of the House of Commons about the potential manners and tact despite the pressure he is under, impact of clause 2 of the Bill on parliamentary privilege. should be looking for an alternative way of delivering Paragraph 9 states: this part of the coalition agreement, to which the hon. “The purpose of the Bill needs to be achieved without inviting Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) the courts to question aspects of the House’s own procedures or alluded. the actions of the Speaker, except where this is absolutely unavoidable The Speaker’s decisions will be taken under immense and clearly justifiable.” political pressure, as he decides what constitutes a confidence The qualification reflects the fact that on the Committee motion, what amendments might be tabled to amend a there was some disagreement about the seriousness of confidence motion, whether, if carried, that would invalidate the threat and between those who are in favour of a the motion, whether the amendment could constitute a written constitution and those who are in favour not of motion of confidence, and the consequences of a written constitution but of the settlement that relies amendments being carried or the motion being carried. upon our immunity. 847 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 848

[Mr Jenkin] I have two final points, and I am grateful for the indulgence of the Committee in allowing me to quote On whether there are alternative ways of achieving extensively from documents. The Bill is being driven by the Bill’s intentions without the risk of judicial interference, an extraordinary consensus on some issues and by the the Committee noted, in paragraph 38: fact that it is so close to the survival of the coalition that “As the Committee has noted, setting out the requirement in it is difficult openly to debate it. The Prime Minister Standing Orders would not be satisfactory because Standing said before the election that Committee stages of Bills Orders can be amended, suspended or revoked by a single simple should not be whipped, so that what a Committee majority vote of the House of Commons only.” thought can be understood. The Whips are out in force That is not correct. I have taken further advice from the today, and I do not think that we will really find out Clerks and I have a letter from the Clerk Assistant and what Members think about it. However, that invites the Director General, Mr Robert Rogers, which, if the other place to look at the privilege and immunities of Committee will indulge me, I will quote. He explains the House, and to propose comprehensive amendments that there is a precedent of super-majorities in Standing that protect Parliament from judicial review. Orders being used, for example, on closure motions in the 1880s. He says: Mark Durkan: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that “As to the practical issue of a “super-majority” SO being able either the Bill or amendment 6 would protect against to be amended or repealed only by a super-majority, I see no judicial intervention on the ground of failure to issue a difficulty. The Speaker would be the arbiter of whether a certificate—a controversy that could easily arise, particularly motion…either was (a) orderly and (b) had been agreed to; he in the light of provisions in respect of a motion of no would be bound by the Standing Order (which should perhaps contain an explicit prohibition on “notwithstanding”-type Motions), confidence? The certificate issues only after the 14-day and his decision would be beyond any external review.” period has been allowed—it does not issue at the time of the debate or just after the vote, but later on—and That neatly and devastatingly removes the need for the there could be controversy about the failure to issue a entire Bill. We could be operating entirely through certificate or about whether a certificate could be issued. Standing Orders, which would be protected by the Someone might try to bring that to the court. super-majority that the Government want to embed in legislation for general elections. It leaves the question of why the Government are resisting this advice. Mr Jenkin: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The amendment, as drafted by my hon. Friend the Amendment 6 is a more elaborate way of saying what Member for Stone, deals with only one aspect of the the Government have already put in the Bill. I would be matter, and, given our limited time to scrutinise this the first to accept that it may be regarded as a more enormously important Bill, I explicitly invite the other elaborate bit of sticking plaster, because the clause will place to look carefully at all the aspects and the advice be subject to judicial interpretation. A certificate could of the Clerk. One of its own Committees is considering not be presented to the courts—not even the Speaker the matter and might well come up with different could present one to a court for adjudication. The word conclusions from those of the Commons Political and “whatsoever” in the amendment means that we are Constitutional Reform Committee. The Lords sorted referring not just to our own courts, but to the European out the IPSA Bill, under which they kept our proceedings Court of Human Rights, which is not just a figment of immune from the courts, and I very much hope that some Eurosceptic’s imagination. The Clerk himself has they will do the same with this Bill. adverted to the fact that the ECHR, under article 10, could be adverted to as a cause for judicial review. My concluding point is a general one about the Bill If a Member of Parliament was prevented from but is relevant to the amendment. I do not think that I voting in the motion of confidence, they could say that can recall a major constitutional measure that was so their vote should be taken into account for a valid closely associated with the survival of one Administration. certificate to be issued by the Speaker. They could We have to pinch ourselves when we think of what we therefore mount a challenge saying that the certificate are doing in reality: we are completely changing our was not valid because they were prevented from voting. constitutional settlement at the behest of a coalition, so A question also arises if sick colleagues cannot get into that it can remain in power for five years. I do not even the Lobby and are nodded through. Would that constitute think that that is ethical. Parliament’s immunity is a ground for challenging a vote of confidence? basically being screwed up, and, although a Bill can at least be repealed, once the courts have been allowed into our proceedings, we will never get them out again Jesse Norman: Was not there an example in the 1970s without a major break in the constitution such as of whether a Member had been able to vote? There was in 1689. a tied vote and Harold Lever, I think I am right in saying, felt that he had not been able to exercise his All that can be forestalled if the Minister simply says, vote? He might have had grounds under this Bill, if the “These matters cannot be resolved today,” because they Clerk is right, to invoke the care and attention of the cannot be resolved on the basis of parliamentary counsel’s courts. advice to Ministers about the drafting of Bills. We need the other place to give the highest and most independent Mr Jenkin: My hon. Friend adverts to an extremely legal advice to ensure that we do not inadvertently relevant precedent. What would happen if a two-thirds bring about what the Government themselves do not majority was obtained, or not obtained, by just one want to see. vote, or the Speaker interpreted the result as a vote of confidence where there was one vote in it that was Chris Bryant: Many thanks are due to the hon. Member represented by somebody who was or was not present for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), who has for whatever reason? These are very dangerous areas. done us a great favour by pointing out some of the 849 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 850 problems in this small aspect of the legislation. He is I presume that the Government have drawn up the absolutely right to say that large parts of the Bill exist provision on the Speaker’s certificate as they have done only for the preservation of a single Administration. I in an attempt to mirror provisions in the Parliament do not know the appropriate Latin equivalent of ad Act 1911, as amended of course in 1949. In an attempt hominem legislation, but this is “ad administrationem” to ensure that in accordance with the Bill of Rights the legislation, which is why some provisions will not stand courts did not interfere in parliamentary proceedings, the test of time. The best that we can do is try to ensure that legislation tried to provide a cast-iron process that the elements of real peril are tidied up. whereby the Speaker could certificate that certain Bills The hon. Gentleman was right in several regards, but were money Bills and did not, therefore, have to go not in one. He talked about the IPSA Bill having been through the same process in the House of Lords as miraculously improved in the other place, but none of other Bills. It also provided that if a money Bill were us really thinks that we ended up with a perfect situation amended or not passed by their Lordships within a or that nirvana arrived by virtue of that Bill. However, certain period—I think it is a month—it would be on the Bill before us—I suspect this would also apply to automatically be sent to Her Majesty for Royal Assent. the other constitutional Bill that we recently scrutinised—he I also presume that the Government have used that is right that if there were a free vote, none of the legislation to draw up the legislation before us, because legislation would go through at all. section 1(3) of the 1911 Act states that “the Speaker shall consult, if practicable, two members to be Mr Jenkin: If the Parliamentary Voting Systems and appointed from the Chairmen’s Panel at the beginning of each Constituencies Bill had been separate Bills, I do not Session by the Committee of Selection.” think that either would have gone through. That process still occurs, and Mr Speaker doubtless On the IPSA Bill, at one stage there was a proposal to went through it before he recently certified several Bills allow IPSA to adjudicate on and punish Members for as money Bills. breaching the rules. That would have driven a coach There is a difficulty, however, with transposing that and horses through our traditional immunities under provision directly into provisions for a situation in the Bill of Rights, but it was removed in the other place. which the Government have lost a motion of no confidence, or into measures that provide the Speaker with a series Chris Bryant: Indeed. As the hon. Gentleman said of fairly significant powers. The Speaker will get to earlier, a privileges Act will be needed at some point, decide when to issue that certificate. As the hon. Member and I hope that the Government turn to such legislation. for Harwich and North Essex has already said, that I realise that there are problems with any written or means that the Speaker will decide whether nodding “codified”—to use the Minister’s term—constitution, people through when Members are on the parliamentary because one risks making it justiciable and must then estate and a Whip, by agreement between the Whips decide what will be the justice that oversees it. Will it be from both sides, nods them through at the end of a vote a supreme court or a constitutional court, such as many by saying, “And two more,” is allowed. other countries have? That is a debate for another day, The Speaker will decide also, for instance, whether however. 14 days have passed since the no confidence motion has been carried. That is important, because past debates 2.15 pm on a motion of no confidence might have started at The issue of the Speaker’s certificate can be addressed 3.30 in the afternoon, but they certainly did not finish only in relation to how it is operated in motions of no by midnight; sometimes, they took up the whole of the confidence, so I do not intend to stray far, Mrs Primarolo, next day’s business. In parliamentary terms, Members from the specific issues involved. Nevertheless, in the were still on the first day, so the question whether previous debate the Minister said that all the amendments 14 days had transpired would be a moot point. dealt with wildly hypothetical situations. Those were Further, the Speaker will decide what is a motion of not his precise words, but broadly speaking that is what no confidence. I therefore presume that, similarly, he he meant, and he was right in a sense. When one starts will decide what is a motion of confidence. The hon. writing bits of the constitution into statute, however, Gentleman is absolutely right that many of those issues one has to provide for the hypothetical situation that could be dealt with in Standing Orders. That would be suddenly arises when, for example, voters have cast very helpful to the House on the question of what their votes not so conveniently as to provide for a single counts as a motion of no confidence or of confidence, majority party in government, or when a party—as has in particular, because this is a matter not of partisan happened regularly over the past 200 years—has collapsed advantage or ideological divide, but of trying to ensure into two parties and is not able to sustain itself in that there are practical measures to obviate a constitutional power. disaster should the moment arise. It is important that we consider the unlikely outcomes It would be helpful if the Minister were able to tell us that might transpire, because if they were to transpire whether he is minded to suggest to the Deputy Leader they would provide us with an enormous constitutional of the House that there should be motions to change headache, and we would have literally no means of the Standing Orders of this House to make some of the sorting them out, because we would have no other court conventions that currently exist part of Standing Orders. to appeal to in order to sort out the constitutional row. For instance, there is the question whether we should For instance, if the monarch decided to sack the Prime have in Standing Orders the provision that when the Minister—this point was raised earlier—other than Opposition demand a motion of no confidence it should revolution I know of no other means that we would usually be provided, say, within 24 or 48 hours, or have to enforce what we all understand to be the proper provision concerning how the Speaker goes about the constitutional settlement. certification process. 851 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 852

Mr Shepherd: I am a little puzzled as to why the hon. Why should the Speaker have to consult? One presumes Gentleman comes to the conclusion that this needs to that it is simply a matter of fact, although I suppose we be codified in any way. Our history demonstrates quite all know that facts are rarely clearly delineated and are openly that this House comes to such a resolution by rather more subjective than most people would want to the processes of the House. When Mr Chamberlain admit. The point is, however, that this puts the Speaker won the famous Norway debate, he recognised that and potentially the House in peril, because people may there was no confidence in him personally. These matters want to contest any one of the various elements of the are eventually decided by the House and by the judgment Speaker’s decision. One of the matters that would almost of individuals. Surely that is the better way of doing it. certainly arise if there were any contest as to whether the certificate was being rightly issued is what the Deputy Chris Bryant: In a sense, that is an argument against Speakers had said. That is an unfortunate direction for the whole Bill which I understand. I know that the hon. us to take. Gentleman is not saying that this is a conspiracy, but I We have tabled an amendment, on which I hope to think that the hon. Member for Harwich and North divide the Committee, on the timing of when the Speaker Essex feels that a bit of a cosy consensus has developed issues the certificate. At the moment, the Bill makes no around the fact that there should be a codification of provision whatsoever on when the Speaker’s certificate fixed-term Parliaments. We agree with that codification. should be issued. One therefore presumes that it could However, once one starts to codify one element, one has be a month, two months or several months after the to codify rather a lot of them. That is why I have wanted passage of two weeks. Let us say, for instance, that after to codify what counts as a motion of no confidence and a motion of no confidence has been carried, the what should be a motion of confidence. Perhaps we Government try to reform themselves with a different should have tried to codify it in a slightly different way concatenation of political parties and do not manage to so that, for instance, a motion to amend the Loyal secure a new motion of confidence, but there are still Address could also be considered as such, as in 1924. patently ongoing negotiations that are nearing their closing phase. Would it then be all right for the Speaker Mr Jenkin: What the hon. Gentleman is suggesting not to issue a certificate at that point but to wait until might well be sensible in one respect, but I fear that it such time that another Government had been formed? will not prevent the courts from having a go at this. The difficulty is that if the Speaker chose not to do so, Indeed, if what constitutes a motion of confidence is who is to gainsay the Speaker? There is no provision in codified in our Standing Orders, the courts will then be the Bill for what would happen if the Speaker has not interpreting whether our Standing Orders reflect what done what the Bill requires. could be regarded as such. If he wants clarity and is For all those reasons, I believe that this element of seeking to provide a better definition, this has to be put the Bill is flawed. I also believe that certain elements into the legislation. Of course, that reflects the point should not be in statute but should be in Standing that we are tempting the courts to interfere in the Orders in order to provide greater certainty for the proceedings of this House. House by taking them within the concept of proceedings of this House. Above all, I want to ensure that there is Chris Bryant: That is an interesting point. The Bill of no uncertainty about the specific provision as to when Rights refers, I think in section 9, to the fact that the Speaker has to act and when the Speaker may act. proceedings in Parliament shall not be touched by any other court. The moot point then is what constitutes a Jesse Norman: I wish to speak in favour of the proceeding in Parliament. There have been many discussions amendment. First, may I congratulate my hon. Friend about this over the past couple of years, not least in and neighbour the Minister on the very calm and effective relation to the arrest of the hon. Member for Ashford way in which he has steered this legislation through the (Damian Green). The hon. Member for Harwich and House? North Essex is right in one sense. However, I have presumed—this is the advice that I had when I sat on None the less, it seems to me that a basic issue with the Government Benches as Deputy Leader of the the legislation remains unresolved. It has been described House—that parliamentary privilege covers proceedings in this House as a matter of parliamentary privilege, in Parliament and the whole of the Standing Orders of but in fact it concerns the fundamental principle of this House, because that how this House chooses to parliamentary sovereignty. One thinks of the magisterial proceed. I think that there is greater security in the words of A.V. Dicey: Standing Orders of the House. “The principle of Parliamentary sovereignty means neither Another issue is how we ensure that the Speaker is more nor less than this, namely that Parliament thus defined”— not dragged into a partisan contest, particularly at a by which he means the King or Queen in Parliament, moment of great political drama. As I said in an earlier rather than just Parliament itself— debate, my concern is that if it is left for the Speaker to “has, under the English constitution, the right to make or unmake have to determine all these elements, the Speaker’s any law whatever: and, further, that no person or body is recognised impartiality is compromised. by the law of England as having a right to override or set aside the Another strange element of the Bill is the provision legislation of Parliament.” that says that before the Speaker issues his certificate, he That is the cardinal principle at issue today. It is worth shall consult the Deputy Speakers. That mirrors the saying that our parliamentary sovereignty remains intact provision in the 1911 Act whereby the Speaker, before in principle. It remains open to this House to repeal, if issuing his certificate on a money Bill, has to consult it so wished, the Act of Settlement 1701 by simple two members of the . What happens if majority. The sovereignty of Parliament can thus be all the Deputy Speakers disagree with issuing the certificate? deliberately limited in its effects by this House—for 853 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 854 example, by treaty—but it should not be limited by Secondly, I think that the Government should accept accident, by inadvertence or by over-confidence. There the amendment because there is a clear trend of more is a risk—a small risk—that this will happen under public decisions falling under the scrutiny of the courts. these provisions. I do not think that that is currently happening in The Clerk of the House has advised in writing and in domestic law, and in my view fears over judicial activism testimony that to include parliamentary voting procedure are misplaced. Nevertheless, we now have an independent in statute would risk judicial scrutiny of the proceedings Supreme Court that might not always exercise the restraint of this House, and possible legal challenge. It is important and care that has been shown by the present generation to note that this is not merely the view of the Clerk of of judges in acknowledging and preserving the principle the House, but also the view of Speaker’s Counsel, and of parliamentary sovereignty. it has legal authority behind it. That is simply because The European Courts are taking a greater interest in the functions described under the clause are statutory domestic matters. The European Court of Human Rights functions, and it would therefore be for the courts to has heard at least one case that the British courts would determine whether those functions are lawfully exercised. not consider on the grounds that it fell under parliamentary That is, of course, advice rendered to the House, not to jurisdiction. European judges have expressed concern the Government. over the lack of remedies against the exercise of parliamentary privilege. 2.30 pm This issue was rightly taken up by the Political and Mr Jenkin: My hon. Friend is making an extremely Constitutional Reform Committee in its report on the important point about the European Court of Human Bill. In response, the Government relied on expert witnesses Rights. As soon as something gets into the Court, it to show that the Bill would avoid unwarranted legal respects no immunities whatsoever—nor does the European challenge. As has been discussed, the Clerk recommended Court of Justice, but that is not adverted to in this case. a way past the problem, which was that the procedure Once a case is in that system, we do not know where it should be written into Standing Orders, but that was will lead. The European Court of Human Rights certainly rejected by the Government. In my judgment, it is would not respect the limitations of the 1689 Act. perfectly legitimate for the Government, after due consideration and on legal advice, to insist on their Jesse Norman: I do not wish to comment on the preferred approach of including the relevant procedures procedure or intention of the European Courts, but I in the legislation, rather than in Standing Orders. note merely that it is true historically that their scrutiny Nevertheless, we are discussing a separate issue—related, has extended itself over time. It is noted less than it but separate. should be that European judges have expressed concern about the exercise of parliamentary privilege and about I believe that the Government would be well advised the lack of remedies that people possess against its to accept the amendment for three reasons. First, as exercise. with all legal issues, this issue is not absolutely clear; it does not admit of certainty. The Government have The final reason why the Government should look relied on expert advice, but when Dawn Oliver and again at the amendment is that the consequences of a Anthony Bradley gave testimony to the Political and mistake could be momentous. In the short term, a Constitutional Reform Committee, both experts dissolution of Parliament and thereby an election could acknowledged the small but clear risk of judicial challenge. hang on it. In the longer term, there could be wider They stated that precedent and statute are being relied political and constitutional implications of judicial scrutiny on that may themselves require new legislative support. of our power. As has been noted today, that risk would be magnified The amendment is simply worded, it offers an additional by the heat and time pressure of an election. layer of protection for Parliament against a serious I would like to correct something that I said earlier to threat, and it does so at little or no additional cost. I the Committee with reference to Harold Lever, by quoting urge the Minister to give it serious consideration. from the evidence of the Clerk of the House before the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee: Tristram Hunt: I, too, shall speak to amendment 6, “I won’t bore the Committee with too many precedents, but I which would take us some way in the direction in which couldn’t resist this one. This is from 1974 and it’s to do with the we should be heading to protect this place from the passage of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill. I will read actions of the courts. a very short extract from the Journal of that year. ‘Mr Harold Every day, as the hon. Member for Harwich and Lever, Member for Manchester Central, acquainted the House, That in the Divisions on Amendments…to the Trade Union and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) said, we see growing evidence Labour Relations Bill…he was recorded as having voted with the of interference by and elements of activism in the Noes, but he had to inform the House that he was not within the courts. We now have the Supreme Court in Parliament Precincts of the House at the time of those Divisions and that in square, and large buildings tend to have large consequences. consequence his vote ought not to have been so recorded.’” The emeritus professor of public administration at The Clerk continued: University college London, Professor Gavin Drewry, “In this case, when Mr Lever came to the House and acquainted has recorded a major shift towards cases of public law, the House about his absence, the whole procedure was declared with some high-profile cases having a constitutional air: null and void, including the Third Reading of the Bill. The Bill “The establishment of the Supreme Court is an important had to be called back from the House of Lords and the whole constitutional landmark, and it would be surprising if the Court process had to happen again.” itself were to stand completely aside from the ongoing process of He concluded: constitutional development.” “I don’t think I need labour the point of what this would mean There is a strong sense of certainty that the Supreme in terms of a no confidence vote.” Court will be involved. 855 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 856

[Tristram Hunt] name of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), and I am grateful for the important contribution of my It is apposite to be discussing this Bill after this hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South morning’s judgment in the case of three former Members Herefordshire (Jesse Norman). Indeed, I was elated at of this House, Morley, Chaytor and Devine, and also a the time of the election to hear that Jessye Norman had peer, against their claim of parliamentary privilege. In been elected to the House. I spent six months seeking his summation, Lord Phillips noted that out that fantastic opera singer—I got the wrong individual, “extensive inroads have been made into areas that previously fell as you will appreciate, Ms Primarolo, and I am very within the exclusive cognisance of Parliament.” grateful to have encountered my hon. Friend on the His statement should be of major concern to Floor of the Committee. parliamentarians when considering the Bill, and in particular to Ministers, who I hope have read and Jesse Norman rose— digested the judgment and are coming to sensible conclusions about it. Chris Bryant: He wants to sing. Sing for Britain. If I may, I shall quote Lord Phillips at greater length: Jesse Norman: No. Hon. Members will be pleased to “Where a statute does not specifically address matters that are hear that I do not propose to sing, but I am pleased to subject to privilege, it is in theory necessary as a matter of report that I have managed to overcome the quadruple statutory interpretation to decide a number of overlapping questions. Does the statute apply within the precincts of the Palace of handicaps of being tall, white, English and male. Westminster? If it does, does it apply in areas that were previously within the exclusive cognisance of Parliament? If so, does the Mr Shepherd: And formidable handicaps they often statute override the privilege imposed by article 9? In practice are. there are not many examples of these questions being considered, The endeavour of my hon. Friend the Member for either within Parliament or by the courts. If Parliament accepts Stone and those who support the amendment was to that a statute applies within an area that previously fell within its exclusive cognisance, then Parliament will, in effect, have waived provide some form of belt-and-braces approach. None any claim to privilege.” of us is confident that it can work, because the aspirations and ambitions of several of our lords justices have Those are damaging and dangerous comments, which given one an uncertainty as to where they are heading in have wide repercussions. the rewriting of the constitution. I am also mindful of Lord Phillips argues that the ultimate judgment of the European Court of Human Rights. We have an such matters rests with the courts. He quotes approvingly inferior court that we call a Supreme Court and a a letter written on 4 March 2010 by the Clerk of the superior court that we call a court of human rights, and Parliaments to the solicitor acting for Lord Hanningfield on top of all that we have another court called the which had been approved by the Committee for Privileges: European Court of Justice. Somewhere in there I can “Article 9 limits the application of parliamentary privilege to see a demented Prime Minister making an application ‘proceedings in Parliament.’ The decision as to what constitutes a for unfair dismissal as a result of a vote to every one of ‘proceeding in Parliament’, and therefore what is or is not admissible as evidence, is ultimately a matter for the court, not the House.” those courts in turn, while we watch on, as though it were a Gilbert and Sullivan pantomime. I shall support We should consider that evidence and the actions of a the amendment. growing number of judges in considering the Bill. Similarly, I will support amendment 23. The matter Mr Jenkin: Bluntly, what the hon. Gentleman is has to be determined quickly and appropriately, so I averting to is a power struggle. The question is whether the shall not waste the House’s time having indicated the House will stand up for its immunities or give them up. actions that I will take. The Bill is an indication that we want to give them up. Mark Durkan: Like the hon. Member for Aldridge- Tristram Hunt: I agree with the hon. Gentleman and Brownhills (Mr Shepherd), I shall speak in support of with the fundamental basis of his analysis, which is that amendments 6 and 23, which are both attempts to earth the constitutional reform programme is driven by the the Bill against some of the dangerous shocks that immediate necessities of the Government in the context could be created for the House in the future. To make of this Parliament. We are making major decisions that some of my points, I will have to refer to what the will have wide ramifications in the functioning of the Minister said about the previous group of amendments. constitution of the United Kingdom, based on a political In the debate on the previous group, the Minister said programme and timetable. That is never the best way in that he could think of no circumstances in which a which to develop deep consensus thinking about the debate on a motion of no confidence would take place constitution. without the House knowing that it was a motion of no I would finally raise a point that the Clerk of the confidence, even though the Bill requires the Speaker to House has also raised. As he put it in a note to the issue a certificate only after a period of 14 days has Committee in the other place, elapsed—it does not specify how long after. That creates “given that a draft Parliamentary Privileges Bill has now been a situation that we all have to consider before we even announced, why deal in advance and separately with a matter go into the danger of what will happen when the matter affecting the proceedings of the House of Commons in legislation”, goes to the courts. Let us first look at the difficulties and if it is not for the specific political purposes of the controversies that will be created in this House. current Government? If a motion of no confidence can be played like a wild joker, and any motion can be converted into one, then Mr Shepherd: I am more and more puzzled about the whenever there is a controversial issue or one involving Bill as we go on, but there are two propositions in this Opposition or rebel tactics, the Speaker will be asked group of amendments. I support amendment 6, in the early in a debate, “Will you signal whether you would be 857 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 858 minded to say that this debate is certifiable? Will you in the Bill, which starts 14 days after a motion. That, in declare that we are going through a potentially certifiable turn, would bring the Speaker into areas of political chain of political and constitutional events?” Of course, controversy and intervention. Amendment 6 is clearly the Speaker might wish to say, “You are trying to draw aimed at ensuring that those difficulties do not make me into a matter of controversy”, because he might not the issuing of a certificate, or possibly the failure to be privy to what Whips are saying to Members about issue one, a matter of controversy that can be brought the significance of a particular motion. to the courts. In discussing previous amendments, Members alluded 2.45 pm to affairs currently in Oireachtas Éireann and in the What would happen if the Speaker said that a motion Dail. Those affairs may be relevant this week, because was not certifiable, and the Prime Minister subsequently an opposition party there has indicated that it might decided that the nature, colour and content of the take to the courts the question whether, under the debate meant that it had been a motion of no confidence constitution, the agreement that the Irish Government in him rather than in the Government, as in the example have entered into has to be subject to a vote of the Dail. of the 1940 debate mentioned by the hon. Member for Let us not rule out circumstances in which a party here, Aldridge-Brownhills? Somebody could announce from possibly a party of Opposition, could feel that the the Dispatch Box, on either the Opposition or Government Speaker had wrongly declined to issue a certificate, or side of the House, that as far as they were concerned, that the Government were using all sorts of procedural there had been a motion of no confidence. Would that chicanery to prevent certificates being issued and to mean that the Speaker’s ruling was somehow removed reset the clock. That party might then feel obliged to or overturned? If anybody wanted to contest in court take the matter to court if it felt that it faced dead ends either the issuing of a certificate or the failure to issue and chicanery in Parliament. That is exactly the situation one, that sequence of events involving the Speaker and that was threatened in Dublin this week given what the Front Benchers could become relevant. It could become Irish Labour party justice spokesman said. Let us not a matter of contest and controversy being presented in join the Minister in completely dismissing all such court. possibilities. Even short of the matter getting to the courts, we are I do not want to move from Dublin to Northern already potentially compromising the Speaker. He will Ireland affairs, but I have some experience of what constantly be hostage to inquiries as to whether a happens in practice. I was involved in negotiating and particular motion could be treated as a motion of no implementing the , including as confidence, and his ruling could at any time be upstaged a Minister and Deputy First Minister. Ministers told from the Treasury Bench. this House that procedures would follow their own course and that political matters would not end up in Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): My children the courts, but then I found that my election as Deputy once asked me, “What does a heffalump look like?” I First Minister was taken to court—when I was jointly said, “You’ll know one when you see one.” Has that elected with David Trimble—because all sorts of rules not been the case with confidence motions throughout were bent and twisted and the clock was reset by history? The House has known one when it has seen Secretaries of State and others. one, and we are in danger of over-complicating the The Act 1998 set a clear six-week process in the Bill. period, but Secretaries of State discovered that if they suspended things for 24 hours, there would be a new Mark Durkan: I have a lot of sympathy with what the six-week period. Whenever there is a facility to contrive hon. Gentleman says, and that was why I indicated my a completely new situation and dispose of a statutory support for earlier amendments that would have narrowed deadline, it is used—whenever Ministers are told that in the ambiguity and reduced the possibility of political case of emergency they can smash the glass, they do so. and procedural chicanery, with which the Bill is riddled. Completely contrary to the assurances and explanations Chris Bryant: Will my hon. Friend point out to the given to the House when we debated the 1998 Act, a hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) that there is number of Secretaries of State found themselves doing a picture of the heffalump in several of A. A. Milne’s that. In addition, Assembly Members redesignated to books? pass particular votes, even though they said that they would not, and so on. Mark Durkan: I accept that point fully. In the context of the Bill, people have said that a Government would never put themselves in the Mr Walker: I shall admonish my children for not embarrassing position of activating a vote of no confidence being better read. in themselves or cutting corners, ignoring rules or resetting clocks so that they can bypass dates and deadlines, but Mark Durkan: I will acknowledge these interventions the Northern Ireland experience shows that that is not no further. so. The exigencies of the moment, and the demands for To return to the matter at hand, let us be clear that stability and good governance, can be used as circumstantial the Bill’s provisions are open to all sorts of contests, excuses. Let us not pretend otherwise. If we are trying questions and controversies. As I have said, I believe to provide for fixed-term Parliaments with clear, fixed that the Minister was wrong to say that the House will and guaranteed arrangements, we must go further than know in all circumstances when something is a vote of the Bill does. It leaves too much power in the hands of confidence. If he wanted to make that incontrovertibly the Prime Minister and the Executive when there has so, he would need to provide either in Standing Orders been a motion of no confidence, and in respect of their or in the Bill for a formal indication by the Speaker that influence over the decision of whether a motion is one a certificate could be issued prior to the period set out of no confidence or otherwise. 859 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 860

[Mark Durkan] support amendment 6. Why not change clause 2(3) to put things as far beyond doubt as possible, mirroring I therefore ask the Minister to acknowledge that what legislators did in 1911, to ensure that the spectre of there are shortcomings in the Bill. Some of the amendments the judiciary questioning and second-guessing the have their own shortcomings, but they do not diminish proceedings of the House does not become a reality? the serious problems with the Bill. If he will not accept amendments 6 and 23, will he agree to work in another Mr Cox: I had not intended to speak, and I shall be place and in the House at another time to make his own extremely brief. Most of my remarks will be addressed amendments, so that the Bill does not create those to the Minister in the hope that he can provide the difficulties and controversies? clarification in substance to the questions asked by my Under the Bill, the Speaker could be the subject of hon. Friends and Opposition Members, which I should controversy. What if there are differences between the like to reinforce. Speaker and Deputy Speakers on the question whether My first question is precisely that which my hon. to indicate in advance that a motion is certifiable? More Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) importantly, as the hon. Member for Harwich and just asked. Why not add the proposed words? If clause 2(3) North Essex (Mr Jenkin) said, I believe that such matters is intended to be an instruction to the courts that a could find themselves before a court, not only because certificate shall not be challenged, on the face of it there somebody might want to contest the fact or content of could be no real reason, unless the Minister has thought a certificate, but more importantly because people might of something that others have not thought of or been want to contest the failure to issue a certificate or the advised otherwise, why the injunction of my hon. Friend fairly questionable proceedings in advance of it. We do the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), which is more expressive, not want the Speaker of the House of Commons to be explicit and detailed, should not be added. Will the caught in the same position as Scottish football referees. Minister elucidate the purpose of stopping short at the They have been accused of taking and changing decisions word “purposes” and not going on to be as explicit as in relation to subsequent arguments and events. Let us possible? protect the office of the Speaker and this House. I ask that because historically, ouster clauses in administrative law have not been conspicuously successful. Mr (South Swindon) (Con): I rise to The courts have not paid very much attention to interpreting make a brief contribution. I have listened with great their duty to examine such issues, and often even where interest to the debate and I await with even greater the ouster clause has been passed. [Interruption.] I see interest the Minister’s response to the very well advocated from the sedentary reaction of my hon. Friend the position on amendment 6, with which I have great Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath)—the sympathy. Deputy Leader of the House—that the reason may be It seems blindingly simple to me. Clause 2(3) stops at that such provisions are so pointless that there is no the words, “for all purposes.” The comparison with point in going any further. If that is the reason, it would section 3 of the Parliament Act 1911 has been made, so be helpful if the Government made that clear, so that why not include the extra words, Members could consider that. I have to tell him that I “and shall not be questioned in any court of law”? do not consider the provision to be pointless—I would The amendment proposes the use of the word “whatsoever”, not imagine that the Government would do anything which was no doubt an attempt by my hon. Friend the. that was pointless in drafting the legislation. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) to deal with the European question—that is perfectly legitimate and I understand The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of entirely the reason for his wording—but the point is the the House of Commons (Mr David Heath) indicated same: if such a provision was good in 1911, why is it not assent. good now? If anything, the balance between Parliament and the courts has deteriorated, as the hon. Member for Mr Cox: I see my hon. Friend nodding sagely. That Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) eloquently outlined. provision therefore must have a function. If that function The balance is now extremely fine, and it is in danger of can be increased in its effect and efficacy by adding the being overturned in favour of judicial activism. proposed words, why not incorporate them? It may well be that reliance will be placed upon the residual powers of article 9 of the Bill of Rights, but as 3pm an Act of Parliament, that too is subject to judicial That brings me to my second point. If it is necessary interpretation. Over the years, it has been interpreted in under clause 3(3) to try to instruct the courts that the a variety of ways by the courts. Notably, it has been certificate should not be justiciable—that it should not impliedly waived or restricted by this House. Section 13 be considered—that must imply, as does my hon. Friend’s of the Defamation Act 1996 is a good example of reaction from the Front Bench, that the Government Parliament deciding, in effect, to allow its privilege to are aware that the courts may well, even in remote and be qualified. I have strong views on the wisdom of that possibly extreme circumstances, become ensnared in the legislation—it was foolish and has led to unintended examination of these issues. One can see considerable consequences, which are at the heart of this debate. skill and intelligence at work in the drafting of the Bill. No Member of Parliament wants a diminution of its One sees that it is intended not to be tempting to the authority or power. This is an elected Chamber and we courts. If we codify too much in statute, the danger is represent the people of this country. Sovereignty means that the courts would be drawn into examining whether just that. It is right that all hon. Members worry—even the preconditions for a motion of confidence had been if it is sounds like lawyers’ caution—about any further met, whether the definitions were properly complied unintended diminution of our authority. That is why I with and so on. What the legislation seems to be doing—if 861 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 862 this is the intention, it is a laudable one—is enacting, in to be its prerogative and to fall within its exclusive broad outline, so as to make it clear to the courts, that sphere. The courts are careful, but they themselves the critical questions of definition and discretion are acknowledge that the Human Rights Act has invited still for the House and the proper authorities of the them further into that territory. House. It is a statute that is intended to preserve a certain flexibility and suppleness so that the courts are Chris Bryant: The hon. and learned Gentleman is not drawn into examining such issues, whereas they making an important contribution, and he is right would be if we laid down too precise a definition of the about the reluctance of the courts, for the most part, to concepts that they involve. intervene and tread on our toes, as it were. However, the I appreciate that, and I see the point of it. It no doubt truth is that those elements of parliamentary privilege forms part of the Government’s confidence that the that attach because of not wishing to interfere with courts will not ordinarily enter into that territory.However, proceedings in Parliament get very fuzzy at the edges. the mere presence of that ouster clause suggests that the Indeed, there are areas where others want the courts to Government are aware that in some circumstances they express a view. My anxiety is not that there would be a might. As the Government have indicated—albeit via a challenge when the Speaker had issued a certificate, but sedentary reaction—they are plainly aware that ouster that a challenge would be far more likely when the clauses do not always work. That suggests to me that Speaker had decided not to do so. the Government are content—or at least have made a strategic decision—that in certain circumstances the Mr Cox: I have heard that observation made, and I judicial authorities may come to interpret and consider hope that the Minister will be able to address it. I do not this legislation. I accept that that is highly unlikely in feel quite as concerned as hon. Members who have the ordinary case, given the amount of discretion, the expressed their views on that point, and I will say why. amount of territory left to the Speaker and the ill-defined A court would very soon see through an argument that nature of many of the concepts. It would be a bold went: “The Speaker has not issued a certificate in court indeed that entered into a discussion of such circumstances where we”—the party bringing the issues and allowed them to become the subject of a application to the court—“think he should have done.” judicial review. The reason is that if a certificate is conclusive for all purposes, so must the absence of a certificate be. I do Mr Jenkin: We all know that we are talking about not believe for a moment that a court would see the heated and potentially controversial circumstances. If matter any other way when the Speaker had chosen not there was a raging controversy about alleged malpractice to make a certificate. Otherwise, we would have to have in our proceedings or surrounding them, and if public a provision in the Bill saying that if the Speaker chooses opinion was strongly supportive of one view or the not to certify, that should not be challenged either. It other, there would be intense pressure on a court to must be implied that if a Speaker made a deliberate and intervene. Does my hon. and learned Friend not think it conscious choice not to certify, the absence of the would be difficult for a court not to intervene under certificate—that choice—must equally be conclusive, such circumstances? and I think that most courts would see it that way. One could argue that that should be explicit in the Bill, but for my purposes, I would not have thought a court Mr Cox: No, I do not think that. Intense pressure is would find impressive an argument that said that a precisely what an independent judiciary is set up to Speaker who decided not to certify could be judicially resist. One would expect and hope for that from a senior reviewed, whereas if he had certified—let us say, in the judge. We are fortunate in the judiciary we have in this negative—he could not be. That would be pointless. country. I hope that hon. Members will reflect carefully on some of the language that we have used in this Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): The issuing debate today. It is not the case that the judiciary have an or non-issuing of a certificate is a slightly false comparison. appetite to assume the powers of this House. Indeed, in The issuing of a certificate would result in action—providing my experience the preponderance in the judiciary is to that it was not challenged successfully in a court—whereas be careful and scrupulous in the way they observe the the non-issuing of a certificate would, I presume, simply parameters of judicial power. preserve the status quo. The problem is—if I can extend this parenthesis as briefly as I may—that we have invited the judiciary into Mr Cox: What is the point of a certificate? It is not the territory time after time, since the European going to be challenged in a court, because the Government Communities Act 1972, which fundamentally altered and this House will instruct the courts not to look at it. the constitutional arrangements in this country.It essentially The point of the certificate is merely to express in meant that there was a higher constitutional court, writing the Speaker’s view that something had been a namely the European Court of Justice—we already motion of confidence. If he does not issue a certificate, have it—which presupposes and believes it is capable of it is plainly the case that he has reached the view that it trumping domestic law. That ultimately led to a decision is not a motion of confidence. However, it is highly in a case called Factortame, in which an Act of Parliament unlikely that the mere fact that a Speaker had produced was set aside by the House of Lords, on the basis of the that view but not committed it to a piece of paper seniority—or superiority—of the European Union’s law. would induce the courts to enter that territory and issue Then we had the Human Rights Act 1998, which what used to be called a writ of mandamus—it is now preserves—or attempts to preserve—a careful balance. called a mandatory order—to force him to do so. I find Nevertheless, it invites the courts into consideration of that improbable and implausible. I hope that the Minister the policies and legislative objectives—almost on the will draw some comfort from that, but he should not basis of their merits—that this House has always considered draw complete comfort from it, because the mere fact 863 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 864

[Mr Cox] Mr Harper: I am grateful for those kind words from my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge that we are considering whether the courts would or and West Devon (Mr Cox). would not be able to enter this territory will induce When Mr Hoyle was in the Chair last week, he made litigants, lobby groups and political groups to bring it clear that he did not intend to have a stand part these very applications before the courts to test out the debate on this clause as we will have touched on all territory. It will not be long before the courts start to parts of it when debating the amendments. Before I consider the extent to which the Bill allows them in, and move on to considering the amendments, it is worth the extent to which it does not. That is where the hon. putting into context the parts of the clause about which Gentleman of whose constituency I am shamefully Members are concerned. ignorant— I think I am right in saying that the concerns expressed Chris Bryant: Stoke-on-Trent. about privilege and about whether the courts should intervene have almost exclusively related to clause 2(2), Mr Cox: The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central which deals with motions of confidence. Interestingly, (Tristram Hunt) quoted the recent judgment of Lord the Clerk of the House, in his evidence and in conversations Phillips, and that is important because Lord Phillips with me, was not concerned about subsection (2), given made it plain that the courts will reserve the power to that it uses a perfectly well-precedented certification define the parameters of parliamentary prerogative and procedure. His concern—I think I explain it accurately—was privilege. If the Bill remains enacted in the law of this with subsection (1), which covers the certification of an country for a long period, which I rather doubt, there early general election, rather than with the certification will inevitably be a point at which the courts are invited procedure in principle. His concern was with the nature in and at which they will start to examine the extent to of the procedure that had to take place before the which they can and cannot become involved. Their view Speaker certified. In other words, not only would the might not entirely coincide with that of the Government. House have had to pass a motion on a Division, but a For example, the question of whether a certificate is particular number of Members would have had to vote. valid might arise. The Bill states: “A certificate under this section is conclusive for all purposes.” 3.15 pm A court might well feel entitled to consider whether, as a Members expressed concern about motions of no matter of law, it is in fact a certificate. In the past, that is confidence and the extent to which courts would want the way in which ouster clauses have been outflanked. to interfere in them, but the Clerk of the House was I am asking the Minister to consider this matter, and exclusively concerned about clause 2(1), which deals I am asking from the heart. I have noticed that, from with the House voting on a motion for an early general time to time, he has found many of the interventions by election, because of the two-thirds majority. Members not altogether to his taste. Perhaps the smile of the Cheshire cat is always seated on his face during Mr Jenkin: At the risk of repeating what I have these debates simply because of his serene command of already read out from the Speaker’s memorandum, I his brief and his sublime confidence in the merits of this want to ensure that we are not speaking at cross-purposes. legislation. However, I ask him to address the consciences In paragraph 16 of the Committee’s report, the Clerk of many of the Members on his own side who have deep makes it very clear, in discussing clause 2(2), that and sincere concerns. My hon. Friend the Member for “The provisions of this subsection make the Speaker’s consideration Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) is among them, of confidence motions and the House’s practices justiciable questions and when he rises to speak on matters of the constitution, for determination by the ordinary courts.” he must always be listened to with respect. He may not I do not think that the Clerk could have been clearer: it be a lawyer but, by Jove, his instincts on the constitution is subsection (2) that he is concerned about. are proud and honoured by a long tradition in this House. I pay tribute to him for standing up with such Mr Harper: I had a conversation with the Clerk integrity and for such a long time for the traditional about the certification, with the majority being specified. view of the constitution in this House. It is not a bad The Government decided to place the provisions on the thing to stand up for tradition. It is not wrong to early general election in statute rather than relying on honour the way in which our forefathers constructed Standing Orders because, as I stated in the memorandum the constitution, the wisdom of it and the value that it I placed in the Library on 13 September, we cannot has conveyed down the ages to the inhabitants of this achieve the policy objective by relying on Standing country. Orders, which can be changed by a simple majority— Will the Minister address this matter? I hope that I have expressed myself modestly by saying that I do not Mr Jenkin: That is not true. endorse or adopt many of the more exaggerated flights of fantasy that have occasionally been bandied about Mr Harper: Let me just finish this point, then I will the Floor of the House. However, it surely cannot be take an intervention from my hon. Friend. denied that there is some risk and some legitimate cause Standing Orders can be changed by a simple majority. for concern, when this matter seems to prey on the The Government’s view was that, if that was the case, minds and the consciences of so many Members of this the power to dissolve Parliament early would effectively House who are motivated by entirely sincere reasons, be left with the Prime Minister. rather than merely by the need to hear the sound of their own voice. I ask the Minister to address those Mr Jenkin: I beg to suggest that, if the Minister had concerns with the sincerity with which they have been listened carefully to what I said earlier, he would have expressed. heard me reading from a letter I had received from 865 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 866

Mr Robert Rogers, who made it absolutely clear that it Court has given its judgment, there are ongoing criminal is possible to entrench a Standing Order of this House trials—but the flaw in the hon. Gentleman’s argument with its own super-majority. I am astonished that the lies in the fact that the case concerns the administration Government do not understand that, and that the whole of the expenses scheme. The House of Commons has basis of this Bill seems to rest once more on the denial never asserted exclusive cognisance of the expenses of advice given by the Clerks of the House. scheme. It has never said that the scheme, its administration and the matters that flow from it are parliamentary Mr Harper: My hon. Friend cited in the letter from proceedings, which is why that is not a good example. Robert Rogers a reference to existing Standing Orders, Moreover, the Supreme Court’s judgment recognises which require a particular majority for an event to take the exclusive right of each House of Parliament to place. I think he mentioned the requirement for manage its own affairs without interference from the 100 Members to vote for a closure motion. There is no other, or from outside Parliament. precedent for a Standing Order, passed by a simple My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North majority, to entrench itself and require that it cannot be Essex quoted the views of the Clerk of the House. If the changed, other than by a vote of this House on a Government were alone in their view and the Clerk’s different majority. The Government know of no precedent views were shared by everyone else, my hon. Friend for that, and no Member has given an example of one. would have a stronger case. The Political and Constitutional If a Standing Order provided that an early general Reform Committee and the Lords Constitution Committee election could be held only after a vote with the specified have taken a great deal of evidence, and the weight of majority, and if that Standing Order could be changed independent expert evidence has supported the by a simple majority vote in the House, it would be Government’s view. For example, Professor Robert open to the governing party, at the behest of the Prime Blackburn of King’s college London said—and I think Minister, to change the Standing Order and to trigger that this is in line with the comments of my hon. and an early election based on the whim of the Executive. learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West That is exactly what we are trying to remove under the Devon (Mr Cox)— Bill. The Government believe that if the policy objective is to be achieved, the procedure must be specified in “In my view, the government’s Fixed-Term Parliaments Bill has been technically well-drafted by the Cabinet Office’s parliamentary statute. counsel, particularly in avoiding judicial review of its provisions on early elections by way of Speaker’s certificates”. Mr Shepherd: If that is so—and I accept it as such—why does it not apply to the statute itself? The hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), the Chairman of the Political and Constitutional Reform Mr Harper: I think we have touched on that before. Committee, said: Once the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament, it cannot “In the very limited time that we had to look at this matter, the be changed purely by a majority vote in the House of Clerk was the only person to raise this question, and the academics Commons. The decision would have to be made by who have been referred to—Professor Hazell, Professor Blackburn Parliament, which would also engage the other place, in and others—completely disagreed with the view put forward by the Clerk.”—[Official Report, 13 September 2010; Vol. 515, c. 632-3.] which the Government do not have a majority. Even after—[Interruption.] I anticipated that reaction. Even after the appointment of the new list of working peers, Tristram Hunt: The point was that we did not have the governing parties together will have only 40% of the enough time to hear other voices that might have agreed peers in the upper House; 60% will be Labour peers, with the Clerk of the House, owing to our having to Cross Benchers or . The fact that this rush our consideration of the Bill and to the speed with will be an Act of Parliament makes it impossible for a which the Government are pushing it through. majority vote of a governing party to bring about an early general election, which is our policy objective. Mr Harper: That was also the experience of the Lords Constitution Committee—and, in fact, we have Chris Bryant: The Minister is right in saying that the not been rushing the consideration of this Bill. We main difference is that the matter would have to be dealt published it in July, Second Reading was in September, with in the second Chamber. As I understand it, however, and this is the third day of the Committee stage, in the coalition agreement states clearly that the Government’s December. We are hardly rushing forward at an enormously aspiration is to create enough peers to meet the proportions swift pace. Months have elapsed. I feel sure that if formed by each of the parties in the general election. hundreds of constitutional lawyers and academics agreed That would provide a majority of 56%—quite apart with the Clerk and disagreed with the Government, we from the fact that, as far as I can see, virtually every would have heard from them. remaining Liberal Democrat Member in the country will be a member of the Second Chamber. Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Does my hon. Friend understand that the Committee had to rush Mr Harper: I will not dwell on this issue at length, through its work on this Bill and the Parliamentary Mr Evans, because if I did so you would rule me out of Voting System and Constituencies Bill at the same time? order, but the coalition agreement does not say that. It says that we want to make the upper House more Mr Harper: I am prepared to accept that consideration representative of the result in the general election, not of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies exactly in line with it. The hon. Gentleman simply is not Bill has been proceeding faster than consideration of right. this Bill, but I cannot accept that this Bill is being The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram considered at a great pace. It was published five months Hunt) quoted from a judgment. I will not be drawn into ago, we have reached only the third day of the Committee the specifics of the Chaytor case—although the Supreme stage, and the Report stage is still to come. I believe that 867 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 868

[Mr Harper] rightly to be resolved by political rather than legal means. I have heard no evidence, apart from assertion, we have been proceeding at a sensible pace. Indeed, that courts would do anything different. today’s proceedings were added when the Government realised that Members wished to engage in the debate at Mark Durkan: I gave the example from 2001 when, greater length. on the third attempt, David Trimble and I were jointly elected as First and Deputy First Minister by the Northern Chris Bryant: The Minister seems to suggest that all Ireland Assembly. That was taken to the courts. Yes, the the evidence apart from that of the Clerk of the House courts did not touch on issues connected with falls into the other camp. The Committee listened to the the Assembly’s standing orders, but they did entertain various witnesses and reached a rather different the suggestion that the Secretary of State had failed to conclusion—that the purpose of the Bill needed to be use the power and duty, given to him under law, to set a achieved without the courts being invited to question date for an election if no First and Deputy First Minister aspects of the House’s own procedures or the actions of have been elected after six weeks. The Secretary of State the Speaker—and urged us to move in a rather different did not do so, claiming that because he had notice of direction from the one advocated by the Government. the potential to elect us, which had been issued by the end day of the six-week period, he could interpret Mr Harper: The Committee was quite right. I agree the deadline differently. The court did not throw out the that we need to ensure that the courts do not question case and the judges—competent, serious, senior judges— those matters. In a moment I will deal with the amendments divided on the issue. In the light of that precedent, the and the Government’s reason for believing that the assurance of the hon. and learned Member for Torridge language we have used about the well-precedented use and West Devon (Mr Cox) does not stand. of Speaker’s certificates prevents the courts from questioning the Act. 3.30 pm My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman makes my point for Essex observed that judges were not more interventionist. me. He accurately sets out the fact that at issue was not I believe there is evidence that there has been more a proceeding in Parliament—a decision of this House—but judicial activism in judicial reviews of Executive decisions, an executive decision by the Secretary of State. As I but as far as I am aware there is no evidence that the have said, there is lots of evidence that courts will courts have become more interventionist in challenging challenge Ministers’ decisions, and one can argue about parliamentary proceedings. Executive decisions and whether they will be right to do so; Ministers would decisions of Parliament are quite different from each probably argue they are not, but everyone else would other. Although the Supreme Court has a new name, it probably argue that they are. The case the hon. Gentleman has no greater powers than the judicial Committee of raises involved an executive decision; it was not a decision the House of Lords that it replaced. I do not think that of this House or a proceeding in Parliament, and it is my hon. Friend’s concerns are well judged. not protected under article 9. My hon. Friend also referred to the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights. Mark Durkan: But what we are talking about is The European Court of Justice can deal with matters related to the closest equivalent in the Northern Ireland related to European Union law; nothing in the Bill Act 1998 of the certificate powers being given to the would engage it. Similarly, the functions of the Speaker Secretary of State. Sections 31 and 32 of the 1998 Act under the Bill do not engage any of the rights conferred provide for the early Dissolution of the Assembly and by the European Court of Human Rights. I think it was early elections. They are the exact same powers, except only last week that the Joint Committee on Human that in Northern Ireland the Secretary of State has the Rights agreed with that when it said that the Bill’s powers of an “over-Speaker”, rather than their being provisions did not need to be brought to the attention vested in the Presiding Officer. They are the equivalent of either House on human rights grounds. powers, however. My hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman)—who is not in the Chamber, Mr Harper: No, I think there is a rather crucial as he has had to fulfil a long-standing and important difference. The powers in that Act are given to a Minister— engagement to attend a meeting elsewhere in the House— they are not proceedings in Parliament. That leads me expressed concern about the European Court of Human nicely on to amendment 6— Rights. In fact, it has shown the utmost respect for parliamentary privilege. In a 2003 case, A. v. United Chris Bryant rose— Kingdom, it was specifically held that article 9 of the Bill of Rights did not violate the convention by preventing Mr Harper: But the hon. Gentleman is keen to get in. an applicant from taking defamation proceedings against an MP for words said in parliamentary proceedings. Chris Bryant: Sorry, but the Minister is using the The European Court of Human Rights strongly supported phrase “proceedings in Parliament” as though it were a the contention that courts would not become involved self-evidently clear concept, but a great deal of legislation in these matters. and case law has analysed various different aspects of it I agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member and it is nowhere near as clear as he might presume. for Torridge and West Devon, who said that owing to the very nature of these events—the fact that they Mr Harper: No, and that leads to where I was going, would be politically highly charged—judges would not which was to turn to amendment 6 and to explain why be keen to rush in and engage in questions that are we are using the language of the device of a Speaker’s 869 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 870 certificate. There are precedents that have stood the test have been content to hold that the fact that the certificate of time, which is why Professor Blackburn expressed has been issued by the Speaker is indeed conclusive for the feeling in the quotation I read that parliamentary all purposes and they have not sought to challenge it. counsel had drafted the Bill well. Mr Cox: We are dealing with a fundamentally different My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) sphere here. Whether or not a Bill is a money Bill is the tabled amendment 6 and my hon. Friend the Member kind of decision that is suitable only for a legislative for Harwich and North Essex spoke to it. I can see why Assembly, but on this matter the courts would regard they would want to use the wording in the Parliament themselves as guarding the right to an election, which is Act 1911, but the Bill says the Speaker’s certificate is a fundamental right of the population of this country. “conclusive for all purposes” and the Government do If Parliament had prescribed that an election should not think inserting the words take place and a certificate was defective because it did “shall not be…questioned in any court of law” not stipulate one of the requisite terms, the courts may adds anything. The 1911 wording has, indeed, stood the regard that as an area into which they ought to go to test of time, but it used the language of the early-20th safeguard the right to an election. century. Later legislation used different wording. The House of Lords Act 1999 used exactly the wording we Mr Harper: If a certificate was issued by the Speaker, have used, which provides that certificates of the Clerk we would be having an election, not stopping one of the Parliaments on questions of whether an hereditary taking place. I do not think that my hon. and learned peer is one of the excepted 92 hereditary peers are Friend’s concern that the courts would hold that the conclusive. The provisions have worked well in practice, population were being deprived of an election would whereas wording consistent with the Parliament Act 1911 apply. The language used in the Bill was chosen for could bring into question whether protections in more exactly the reasons I have suggested. We have used recent Acts were meant to be an inferior sort of protection. well-precedented, tried and tested language; it has stood We think that would be undesirable. the test of time. It is perfectly true to say that people can Provided certificates are conclusive for all purposes, it make groundless applications to courts on all sorts of is perfectly adequate to show that it is for the Speaker to things, but courts quickly dismiss them and prevent decide whether the conditions for an early election have them from proceeding further. We are confident that been satisfied, not for the courts or the Executive. The these proposals are robust and will not have the effect effect and the intention of the drafting are perfectly that hon. Members suggest. clear. Although the additional words in amendment 6 In the few minutes remaining, I wish to discuss might appear attractive, they would not add anything to amendment 23, because the hon. Member for Rhondda the protection in the Bill. There is no evidence or reason (Chris Bryant) suggested that he wanted to ask you, to think the courts would want to trespass on what Mr Evans, whether he could press it to a Division. The would effectively be highly politicised issues or that they amendment proposes a 24-hour time limit for the issuing would not continue to regard matters relating to the of the Speaker’s certificate. I can superficially see why internal operation of the House as “proceedings in that might be attractive, but it sets some conditions that Parliament”. might introduce elements casting doubt on the validity I should also like to deal with the wording in of the certificate if it were delayed, even if it were by amendment 6 that seeks to prevent a Speaker’s certificate only a few minutes, or if it were issued close to the time issued under clause 2 from being “presented” to a court. limit. Thus, the amendment would enable people to I can see why my hon. Friend the Member for Stone is question the certificate. We should therefore rely on the trying to do that, but it seems to me that that takes a standard practice, whereby the Speaker’s certificate is step backwards. Being able to present the certificate to the conclusive provision. the court is the simplest and easiest way of informing Given what I have said, I hope that hon. Members the court that the conditions for an early election exist will not seek to press their amendments to a Division and the Speaker has made the decision. That stops the and that we are able to proceed with the debate. court being tempted to dwell on proceedings in Parliament; it has a clear piece of paper that explains that the Mr Jenkin: I am most grateful, Mr Evans, for the Speaker has made that determination and the court opportunity to reply to the debate. need go no further. I regret that I feel compelled to press this matter to a vote, but I feel that the Minister’s response has been Mr Cox: Let us suppose that the Speaker issued a wholly unconvincing. We are faced with adamant and certificate that omitted one of the matters that the clear advice from the Clerk of the House that the statute required him to certify. Would it not be open to a Minister has chosen to dismiss as irrelevant. Let me petitioner to argue in court that there had been a failure remind the House what the Clerk said: to comply with the conditions that made a certificate “The provisions of this subsection make the Speaker’s consideration valid and that the court was entitled to examine whether of confidence motions and the House’s practices justiciable questions it was a certificate before obeying the ouster that prevents for determination by the ordinary courts.” it from challenging the certificate? That includes “what constitutes a confidence motion, the selection of amendments Mr Harper: My hon. and learned Friend makes a to such Motions and the consequences of their being carried”. point that relates to the use of certificates, but what he He goes on to say: describes would be perfectly true of the certificate that “As these would become justiciable questions, the courts could the Speaker issues on money Bills and the certification be drawn into matters of acute political controversy.” that he issues under the Parliament Act. Those are well The Minister has not responded with anything substantive precedented and have stood the test of time. The courts to defeat that advice. 871 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 872

[Mr Jenkin] it could affect the outcome of a vote. In the short term, I ask that, every time there is a Division today, a Moreover, the Minister has rested his justification for messenger goes particularly to that part of the House to the Bill on the assertion that it would not be possible to ensure that Members are made aware that a Division is write these provisions into the Standing Orders, which taking place. would be automatically immune. Let me read from the The Committee having divided: Ayes 231, Noes 295. Clerk’s memorandum again. He said that “a Standing Order regulating the matters in the Bill could provide Division No. 138] [3.42 pm for its staying in effect unless repealed by a specified majority”, AYES meaning that it could be entrenched, Abbott, Ms Diane Doyle, Gemma “for example by…equal to or greater than two thirds of the Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dromey, Jack number of seats in the House. Not only is the principle of specifying majorities already written into the Standing Orders of Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Dugher, Michael the House, but in the past the House has also required a relative Alexander, Heidi Durkan, Mark majority for reaching decision.” Ali, Rushanara Eagle, Ms Angela Austin, Ian Eagle, Maria My hon. Friend the Minister also dismissed the Bain, Mr William Edwards, Jonathan comments that I read from Mr Robert Rogers, the Clerk Balls, rh Ed Efford, Clive Assistant and Director General, who made it clear that Banks, Gordon Ellman, Mrs Louise we can not only write into our Standing Orders provisions Barron, rh Mr Kevin Engel, Natascha requiring super-majorities, but entrench a—[Interruption.] Bayley, Hugh Esterson, Bill I am rather distressed that the Minister is not even Bell, Sir Stuart Evans, Chris listening to what I am saying. We can entrench a Standing Benn, rh Hilary Field, rh Mr Frank Order with its own super-majority so that it could be Berger, Luciana Fitzpatrick, Jim removed only by a super-majority, if that is what the Betts, Mr Clive Flint, rh Caroline House chose to do. The whole basis of the Government’s Blackman-Woods, Fovargue, Yvonne advice remains contested by the Clerks. The basis of the Roberta Francis, Dr Hywel Bill—that this has to be done through statute—also Blears, rh Hazel Gapes, Mike remains contested by the Clerks. Blenkinsop, Tom Gardiner, Barry Blomfield, Paul Gilmore, Sheila I doubt that we will win the vote in the Committee Blunkett, rh Mr David Glass, Pat this afternoon, but the Minister has failed to give a full Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Godsiff, Mr Roger response or to acknowledge any of the points that have Brennan, Kevin Goggins, rh Paul been made. His subsection refers to a Speaker’s “certificate Brown, Lyn Goodman, Helen under this section”, which is very unspecific. At least Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Greatrex, Tom the amendment states Brown, Mr Russell Green, Kate Bryant, Chris Greenwood, Lilian “Any certificate of the Speaker of the House of Commons Buck, Ms Karen Griffith, Nia given under this section shall be conclusive for all purposes”. Buckland, Mr Robert Gwynne, Andrew That word “any” and the reference to the Speaker make Burden, Richard Hain, rh Mr Peter it clear that whatever the Speaker issues is uncontested, Burnham, rh Andy Hanson, rh Mr David rather than leave it open to the courts to determine Byrne, rh Mr Liam Harman, rh Ms Harriet whether the certificate presented by the Speaker complies Cairns, David Harris, Mr Tom with the legislation. I am afraid that the Minister has Campbell, Mr Alan Havard, Mr Dai not satisfied me and I do not think that he has satisfied Campbell, Mr Ronnie Healey, rh John a great many of my colleagues on the Government Caton, Martin Hendrick, Mark Benches or in the official Opposition. I want to press Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hepburn, Mr Stephen the amendment to a vote. Clark, Katy Heyes, David Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hillier, Meg Question put, That the amendment be made. Clwyd, rh Ann Hilling, Julie The Committee proceeded to a Division. Coaker, Vernon Hodge, rh Margaret Coffey, Ann Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): On a point of order, Mr Evans. Cooper, Rosie Hollobone, Mr Philip At lunchtime today I was sitting in the Terrace cafeteria Corbyn, Jeremy Hosie, Stewart and, for the second time in a fortnight, I was unable to Crausby, Mr David Howarth, rh Mr George Creagh, Mary Hunt, Tristram hear the Division bells at all. There was nothing to Creasy, Stella Irranca-Davies, Huw indicate that a vote was taking place. Can you facilitate Cruddas, Jon James, Mrs Siân C. Members’ ability to vote if they are sitting in that area, Cunningham, Alex Jamieson, Cathy perhaps by asking the Badge Messengers to inform Cunningham, Mr Jim Johnson, rh Alan them that a vote is taking place while the problem is Cunningham, Tony Johnson, Diana sorted out? Curran, Margaret Jones, Graham Dakin, Nic Jones, Helen The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Danczuk, Simon Jones, Mr Kevan Evans): Thank you for that point of order. I must say Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jones, Susan Elan that I have taken a number of points of order in a Davidson, Mr Ian Jowell, rh Tessa similar vein since taking the Chair on 8 June, and this is Davies, Geraint Joyce, Eric clearly worrying for Members as well as irritating for Dobson, rh Frank Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald the Chair. I will instruct that the matter be fully investigated, Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Keeley, Barbara not just in the area that the hon. Lady has spoken Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Keen, Alan about, but throughout the parliamentary estate. Clearly, Doran, Mr Frank Kendall, Liz 873 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 874

Khan, rh Sadiq Robertson, John Birtwistle, Gordon Garnier, Mark Lammy, rh Mr David Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Blackman, Bob Gauke, Mr David Lavery, Ian Rotheram, Steve Blackwood, Nicola George, Andrew Leslie, Chris Roy, Mr Frank Blunt, Mr Crispin Gibb, Mr Nick Lloyd, Tony Roy, Lindsay Boles, Nick Gilbert, Stephen Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Ruane, Chris Bottomley, Peter Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Love, Mr Andrew Ruddock, rh Joan Bradley, Karen Goodwill, Mr Robert Lucas, Caroline Sarwar, Anas Brake, Tom Gove, rh Michael Lucas, Ian Seabeck, Alison Bray, Angie Graham, Richard MacNeil, Mr Angus Shannon, Jim Brazier, Mr Julian Grant, Mrs Helen Brendan Sharma, Mr Virendra Bridgen, Andrew Gray, Mr James Mactaggart, Fiona Sheerman, Mr Barry Brokenshire, James Grayling, rh Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid Shepherd, Mr Richard Brooke, Annette Green, Damian Mahmood, Shabana Sheridan, Jim Browne, Mr Jeremy Greening, Justine Main, Mrs Anne Shuker, Gavin Bruce, Fiona Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mann, John Simpson, David Bruce, rh Malcolm Griffiths, Andrew Marsden, Mr Gordon Singh, Mr Marsha Burley, Mr Aidan Gummer, Ben McCann, Mr Michael Skinner, Mr Dennis Burns, Conor Halfon, Robert McCarthy, Kerry Slaughter, Mr Andy Burrowes, Mr David Hames, Duncan McClymont, Gregg Smith, Angela Burstow, Paul Hammond, Stephen McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Nick Burt, Lorely Hancock, Matthew McFadden, rh Mr Pat Smith, Owen Byles, Dan Hands, Greg McGovern, Jim Soulsby, Sir Peter Cable, rh Vince Harper, Mr Mark McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Spellar, rh Mr John Cairns, Alun Harrington, Richard McKechin, Ann Stringer, Graham Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harris, Rebecca McKinnell, Catherine Stuart, Ms Gisela Carmichael, Mr Alistair Hart, Simon Meacher, rh Mr Michael Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Carmichael, Neil Harvey, Nick Mearns, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Michael, rh Alun Thornberry, Emily Clark, rh Greg Heald, Mr Oliver Miliband, rh David Timms, rh Stephen Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heath, Mr David Miller, Andrew Trickett, Jon Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hemming, John Moon, Mrs Madeleine Turner, Mr Andrew Morden, Jessica Collins, Damian Henderson, Gordon Turner, Karl Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Colvile, Oliver Hendry, Charles Twigg, Derek Morris, Grahame M. Crabb, Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Twigg, Stephen (Easington) Crockart, Mike Hermon, Lady Umunna, Mr Chuka Mudie, Mr George Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian Munn, Meg Vaz, rh Keith Davey, Mr Edward Hollingbery, George Murphy, rh Mr Jim Vaz, Valerie Davies, David T. C. Holloway, Mr Adam Murphy, rh Paul Walker, Mr Charles (Monmouth) Hopkins, Kris Murray, Ian Walley, Joan Davies, Glyn Horwood, Martin Nandy, Lisa Watson, Mr Tom Davis, rh Mr David Howarth, Mr Gerald Nash, Pamela Watts, Mr Dave de Bois, Nick Howell, John Nuttall, Mr David Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, Simon O’Donnell, Fiona Whitehead, Dr Alan Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huhne, rh Chris Onwurah, Chi Williams, Hywel Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hunter, Mark Owen, Albert Williamson, Chris Dorries, Nadine Huppert, Dr Julian Paisley, Ian Wilson, Phil Doyle-Price, Jackie Hurd, Mr Nick Pearce, Teresa Wilson, Sammy Duddridge, James Jackson, Mr Stewart Perkins, Toby Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Duncan Smith, rh Mr Johnson, Gareth Pound, Stephen Wishart, Pete Iain Johnson, Joseph Qureshi, Yasmin Woodcock, John Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Andrew Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr David Raynsford, rh Mr Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Nick Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr Marcus Wright, David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kawczynski, Daniel Wright, Mr Iain Reynolds, Emma Elphicke, Charlie Kelly, Chris Reynolds, Jonathan Tellers for the Ayes: Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Riordan, Mrs Linda Mr David Hamilton and Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Robertson, Angus Mr Bernard Jenkin Evennett, Mr David Laing, Mrs Eleanor Fabricant, Michael Lamb, Norman NOES Fallon, Michael Lancaster, Mark Farron, Tim Latham, Pauline Adams, Nigel Baldwin, Harriett Featherstone, Lynne Laws, rh Mr David Aldous, Peter Barclay, Stephen Field, Mr Mark Leadsom, Andrea Alexander, rh Danny Barker, Gregory Foster, Mr Don Lee, Jessica Andrew, Stuart Barwell, Gavin Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Dr Phillip Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bebb, Guto Francois, rh Mr Mark Leech, Mr John Bacon, Mr Richard Beith, rh Sir Alan Freeman, George Lefroy, Jeremy Bagshawe, Ms Louise Benyon, Richard Fullbrook, Lorraine Leigh, Mr Edward Baker, Norman Beresford, Sir Paul Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Baker, Steve Berry, Jake Gale, Mr Roger Lewis, Brandon Baldry, Tony Bingham, Andrew Garnier, Mr Edward Lilley, rh Mr Peter 875 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 876

Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David More than three hours having elapsed since the Long, Naomi Sanders, Mr Adrian commencement of proceedings, the proceedings were Lopresti, Jack Sandys, Laura interrupted (Programme Orders, 13 September and Lord, Jonathan Scott, Mr Lee 24 November). Loughton, Tim Selous, Andrew Luff, Peter Shapps, rh Grant The Chair put forthwith the Questions necessary for Lumley, Karen Sharma, Alok the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time Macleod, Mary Shelbrooke, Alec (Standing Order No. 83D). Maynard, Paul Simmonds, Mark Amendment proposed: 23, in clause 2, page 2, line 17, at McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith end insert— McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris ‘(4A) The Speaker shall issue a certificate under subsection (1) McLoughlin, rh Mr Smith, Miss Chloe or (2) within 24 hours of the relevant conditions being met under Patrick Smith, Julian subsection (1) or (2).’.—(Chris Bryant.) McPartland, Stephen Soames, Nicholas McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna Question put, That the amendment be made. Menzies, Mark Spelman, rh Mrs The Committee divided: Ayes 229, Noes 302. Mercer, Patrick Caroline Metcalfe, Stephen Stanley, rh Sir John Division No. 139] [3.56 pm Miller, Maria Stephenson, Andrew Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John AYES Milton, Anne Stewart, Bob Abbott, Ms Diane Davidson, Mr Ian Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Iain Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Davies, Geraint Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Rory Alexander, rh Mr Douglas De Piero, Gloria Mordaunt, Penny Streeter, Mr Gary Alexander, Heidi Dobson, rh Frank Morgan, Nicky Stride, Mel Ali, Rushanara Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Morris, Anne Marie Stuart, Mr Graham Austin, Ian Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Morris, David Stunell, Andrew Bain, Mr William Doran, Mr Frank Morris, James Sturdy, Julian Balls, rh Ed Doyle, Gemma Mosley, Stephen Swales, Ian Banks, Gordon Dromey, Jack Mowat, David Swayne, Mr Desmond Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dugher, Michael Mulholland, Greg Swinson, Jo Bayley, Hugh Eagle, Ms Angela Mundell, rh David Swire, Mr Hugo Bell, Sir Stuart Eagle, Maria Munt, Tessa Syms, Mr Robert Benn, rh Hilary Edwards, Jonathan Murray, Sheryll Teather, Sarah Berger, Luciana Efford, Clive Murrison, Dr Andrew Thurso, John Betts, Mr Clive Ellman, Mrs Louise Neill, Robert Timpson, Mr Edward Blackman-Woods, Roberta Engel, Natascha Newmark, Mr Brooks Tomlinson, Justin Blears, rh Hazel Esterson, Bill Newton, Sarah Tredinnick, David Blenkinsop, Tom Evans, Chris Nokes, Caroline Truss, Elizabeth Blomfield, Paul Farrelly, Paul O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Blunkett, rh Mr David Field, rh Mr Frank Offord, Mr Matthew Uppal, Paul Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Fitzpatrick, Jim Ollerenshaw, Eric Vaizey, Mr Edward Brennan, Kevin Flint, rh Caroline Opperman, Guy Vickers, Martin Brown, Lyn Fovargue, Yvonne Ottaway, Richard Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Francis, Dr Hywel Paice, Mr James Walker, Mr Robin Brown, Mr Russell Gapes, Mike Patel, Priti Wallace, Mr Ben Bryant, Chris Gardiner, Barry Paterson, rh Mr Watkinson, Angela Buck, Ms Karen Gilmore, Sheila Owen Weatherley, Mike Burden, Richard Glass, Pat Pawsey, Mark Webb, Steve Burnham, rh Andy Godsiff, Mr Roger Penning, Mike Wharton, James Byrne, rh Mr Liam Goggins, rh Paul Penrose, John Wheeler, Heather Cairns, David Goodman, Helen Percy, Andrew White, Chris Campbell, Mr Alan Greatrex, Tom Perry, Claire Whittaker, Craig Campbell, Mr Ronnie Green, Kate Pincher, Christopher Wiggin, Bill Caton, Martin Greenwood, Lilian Poulter, Dr Daniel Willetts, rh Mr David Chapman, Mrs Jenny Griffith, Nia Prisk, Mr Mark Williams, Mr Mark Clark, Katy Gwynne, Andrew Pritchard, Mark Williams, Roger Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hain, rh Mr Peter Pugh, Dr John Williams, Stephen Clwyd, rh Ann Hanson, rh Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Williamson, Gavin Coaker, Vernon Harman, rh Ms Harriet Randall, rh Mr John Willott, Jenny Coffey, Ann Harris, Mr Tom Reckless, Mark Wilson, Mr Rob Cooper, Rosie Havard, Mr Dai Redwood, rh Mr John Wollaston, Dr Sarah Corbyn, Jeremy Healey, rh John Reid, Mr Alan Wright, Simon Crausby, Mr David Hepburn, Mr Stephen Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Yeo, Mr Tim Creagh, Mary Hermon, Lady Robathan, Mr Andrew Young, rh Sir George Creasy, Stella Heyes, David Robertson, Mr Laurence Zahawi, Nadhim Cunningham, Alex Hillier, Meg Rogerson, Dan Cunningham, Mr Jim Hilling, Julie Rosindell, Andrew Tellers for the Noes: Cunningham, Tony Hodge, rh Margaret Ruffley, Mr David Jeremy Wright and Curran, Margaret Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Russell, Bob Mr Shailesh Vara Dakin, Nic Hollobone, Mr Philip Danczuk, Simon Hosie, Stewart Question accordingly negatived. Darling, rh Mr Alistair Howarth, rh Mr George 877 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 878

Hunt, Tristram Pound, Stephen Baker, Norman Evans, Jonathan Irranca-Davies, Huw Qureshi, Yasmin Baker, Steve Evennett, Mr David James, Mrs Siân C. Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Baldry, Tony Fabricant, Michael Jamieson, Cathy Reynolds, Emma Baldwin, Harriett Fallon, Michael Johnson, rh Alan Reynolds, Jonathan Barclay, Stephen Farron, Tim Johnson, Diana Riordan, Mrs Linda Barker, Gregory Featherstone, Lynne Jones, Graham Robertson, Angus Barwell, Gavin Field, Mr Mark Jones, Helen Robertson, John Bebb, Guto Foster, Mr Don Jones, Mr Kevan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Benyon, Richard Francois, rh Mr Mark Jones, Susan Elan Rotheram, Steve Beresford, Sir Paul Freeman, George Jowell, rh Tessa Roy, Mr Frank Berry, Jake Fullbrook, Lorraine Joyce, Eric Roy, Lindsay Bingham, Andrew Fuller, Richard Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Ruane, Chris Birtwistle, Gordon Gale, Mr Roger Keeley, Barbara Ruddock, rh Joan Blackman, Bob Garnier, Mr Edward Keen, Alan Sarwar, Anas Blackwood, Nicola Garnier, Mark Kendall, Liz Seabeck, Alison Blunt, Mr Crispin Gauke, Mr David Khan, rh Sadiq Shannon, Jim Boles, Nick George, Andrew Lammy, rh Mr David Sharma, Mr Virendra Bottomley, Peter Gibb, Mr Nick Lavery, Ian Sheerman, Mr Barry Bradley, Karen Gilbert, Stephen Lazarowicz, Mark Shepherd, Mr Richard Brady, Mr Graham Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Leslie, Chris Sheridan, Jim Brake, Tom Glen, John Lewis, Mr Ivan Shuker, Gavin Bray, Angie Goodwill, Mr Robert Lloyd, Tony Simpson, David Brazier, Mr Julian Gove, rh Michael Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Singh, Mr Marsha Bridgen, Andrew Graham, Richard Love, Mr Andrew Skinner, Mr Dennis Brokenshire, James Grant, Mrs Helen Lucas, Caroline Slaughter, Mr Andy Brooke, Annette Gray, Mr James Lucas, Ian Smith, Angela Browne, Mr Jeremy Grayling, rh Chris MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Smith, Nick Bruce, Fiona Green, Damian Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Owen Bruce, rh Malcolm Greening, Justine Mahmood, Mr Khalid Soulsby, Sir Peter Buckland, Mr Robert Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mahmood, Shabana Spellar, rh Mr John Burley, Mr Aidan Griffiths, Andrew Mann, John Stringer, Graham Burns, Conor Gummer, Ben Marsden, Mr Gordon Stuart, Ms Gisela Burrowes, Mr David Halfon, Robert McCann, Mr Michael Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Burstow, Paul Hames, Duncan McCarthy, Kerry Thomas, Mr Gareth Burt, Lorely Hammond, Stephen McClymont, Gregg Thornberry, Emily Byles, Dan Hancock, Matthew McDonagh, Siobhain Timms, rh Stephen Cable, rh Vince Hands, Greg McFadden, rh Mr Pat Trickett, Jon Cairns, Alun Harper, Mr Mark McGovern, Jim Turner, Mr Andrew Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harrington, Richard McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Turner, Karl Carmichael, Mr Alistair Harris, Rebecca McKechin, Ann Twigg, Derek Carmichael, Neil Hart, Simon McKinnell, Catherine Twigg, Stephen Clappison, Mr James Harvey, Nick Meacher, rh Mr Michael Umunna, Mr Chuka Clark, rh Greg Haselhurst, rh Sir Mearns, Ian Vaz, rh Keith Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Alan Michael, rh Alun Vaz, Valerie Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heald, Mr Oliver Miliband, rh David Walley, Joan Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Miller, Andrew Watson, Mr Tom Collins, Damian Heaton-Harris, Chris Moon, Mrs Madeleine Watts, Mr Dave Colvile, Oliver Hemming, John Morden, Jessica Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Cox, Mr Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Whitehead, Dr Alan Crabb, Stephen Hendry, Charles Morris, Grahame M. Williams, Hywel Crockart, Mike Herbert, rh Nick (Easington) Williamson, Chris Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian Mudie, Mr George Wilson, Phil Davey, Mr Edward Hollingbery, George Munn, Meg Wilson, Sammy Davies, David T. C. Holloway, Mr Adam Murphy, rh Paul Winnick, Mr David (Monmouth) Hopkins, Kris Murray, Ian Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Davies, Glyn Horwood, Martin Nandy, Lisa Wishart, Pete Davis, rh Mr David Howarth, Mr Gerald Nash, Pamela Woodcock, John de Bois, Nick Howell, John Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, Simon Nuttall, Mr David Woodward, rh Mr Shaun O’Donnell, Fiona Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huhne, rh Chris Wright, David Onwurah, Chi Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huppert, Dr Julian Wright, Mr Iain Owen, Albert Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick Paisley, Ian Tellers for the Ayes: Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Pearce, Teresa Mark Hendrick and Duddridge, James Johnson, Gareth Perkins, Toby Mr David Hamilton Duncan Smith, rh Mr Johnson, Joseph Iain Jones, Andrew NOES Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr David Adams, Nigel Andrew, Stuart Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel Afriyie, Adam Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Aldous, Peter Bacon, Mr Richard Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Mr Greg Alexander, rh Danny Bagshawe, Ms Louise Evans, Graham Kwarteng, Kwasi 879 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 880

Laing, Mrs Eleanor Raab, Mr Dominic Williams, Roger Wright, Simon Lamb, Norman Randall, rh Mr John Williams, Stephen Yeo, Mr Tim Lancaster, Mark Reckless, Mark Williamson, Gavin Young, rh Sir George Latham, Pauline Redwood, rh Mr John Willott, Jenny Zahawi, Nadhim Laws, rh Mr David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wilson, Mr Rob Tellers for the Noes: Lee, Jessica Reevell, Simon Wollaston, Dr Sarah Mark Hunter and Lee, Dr Phillip Reid, Mr Alan Wright, Jeremy Mr Shailesh Vara Leech, Mr John Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Lefroy, Jeremy Robathan, Mr Andrew Leigh, Mr Edward Robertson, Mr Laurence Question accordingly negatived. Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Amendment proposed: 25, in page 2, line 24, at end Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew add— Lilley, rh Mr Peter Ruffley, Mr David ‘(6A) In this section a “motion of no confidence in Her Lloyd, Stephen Russell, Bob Majesty’s Government” shall be— Long, Naomi Rutley, David Lopresti, Jack Sanders, Mr Adrian (a) in the terms “This House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government” or Lord, Jonathan Scott, Mr Lee Loughton, Tim Selous, Andrew (b) in the terms “This House has no confidence in the Luff, Peter Shapps, rh Grant Prime Minister”.’.—(Chris Bryant.) Lumley, Karen Sharma, Alok Question put, That the amendment be made. Macleod, Mary Shelbrooke, Alec Main, Mrs Anne Simmonds, Mark The Committee divided: Ayes 229, Noes 298. Maynard, Paul Simpson, Mr Keith Division No. 140] [4.08 pm McCartney, Jason Skidmore, Chris McCartney, Karl Smith, Miss Chloe AYES McLoughlin, rh Mr Smith, Julian Abbott, Ms Diane Cunningham, Mr Jim Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cunningham, Tony McPartland, Stephen Soames, Nicholas Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Curran, Margaret McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna Alexander, Heidi Dakin, Nic Menzies, Mark Spelman, rh Mrs Ali, Rushanara Danczuk, Simon Mercer, Patrick Caroline Austin, Ian Darling, rh Mr Alistair Metcalfe, Stephen Stanley, rh Sir John Bain, Mr William Davidson, Mr Ian Miller, Maria Stephenson, Andrew Banks, Gordon Davies, Geraint Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John Barron, rh Mr Kevin De Piero, Gloria Milton, Anne Stewart, Bob Bayley, Hugh Dobson, rh Frank Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Iain Bell, Sir Stuart Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Rory Benn, rh Hilary Donohoe, Mr Brian Mordaunt, Penny Streeter, Mr Gary Berger, Luciana H. Morgan, Nicky Stride, Mel Betts, Mr Clive Doran, Mr Frank Morris, Anne Marie Stuart, Mr Graham Blackman-Woods, Doyle, Gemma Morris, David Stunell, Andrew Roberta Dromey, Jack Morris, James Sturdy, Julian Blears, rh Hazel Dugher, Michael Mosley, Stephen Swales, Ian Blenkinsop, Tom Eagle, Ms Angela Mowat, David Swayne, Mr Desmond Blomfield, Paul Eagle, Maria Mulholland, Greg Swinson, Jo Blunkett, rh Mr David Edwards, Jonathan Mundell, rh David Swire, Mr Hugo Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Efford, Clive Munt, Tessa Syms, Mr Robert Brennan, Kevin Ellman, Mrs Louise Murray, Sheryll Teather, Sarah Brown, Lyn Engel, Natascha Murrison, Dr Andrew Thurso, John Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Esterson, Bill Neill, Robert Timpson, Mr Edward Brown, Mr Russell Evans, Chris Newmark, Mr Brooks Tomlinson, Justin Bryant, Chris Farrelly, Paul Newton, Sarah Tredinnick, David Buck, Ms Karen Field, rh Mr Frank Nokes, Caroline Truss, Elizabeth Burden, Richard Fitzpatrick, Jim Norman, Jesse Tyrie, Mr Andrew Burnham, rh Andy Flint, rh Caroline O’Brien, Mr Stephen Uppal, Paul Byrne, rh Mr Liam Fovargue, Yvonne Offord, Mr Matthew Vaizey, Mr Edward Cairns, David Francis, Dr Hywel Ollerenshaw, Eric Vickers, Martin Campbell, Mr Alan Gapes, Mike Opperman, Guy Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Campbell, Mr Ronnie Gardiner, Barry Ottaway, Richard Walker, Mr Charles Caton, Martin Gilmore, Sheila Paice, Mr James Walker, Mr Robin Chapman, Mrs Jenny Glass, Pat Patel, Priti Wallace, Mr Ben Clark, Katy Godsiff, Mr Roger Paterson, rh Mr Owen Watkinson, Angela Clarke, rh Mr Tom Goggins, rh Paul Pawsey, Mark Weatherley, Mike Clwyd, rh Ann Goodman, Helen Penning, Mike Webb, Steve Coaker, Vernon Greatrex, Tom Penrose, John Wharton, James Coffey, Ann Green, Kate Percy, Andrew Wheeler, Heather Cooper, Rosie Greenwood, Lilian Perry, Claire White, Chris Corbyn, Jeremy Griffith, Nia Pincher, Christopher Whittaker, Craig Crausby, Mr David Gwynne, Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Whittingdale, Mr John Creagh, Mary Hain, rh Mr Peter Prisk, Mr Mark Wiggin, Bill Creasy, Stella Hanson, rh Mr David Pritchard, Mark Willetts, rh Mr David Cruddas, Jon Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pugh, Dr John Williams, Mr Mark Cunningham, Alex Harris, Mr Tom 881 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 882

Havard, Mr Dai Nuttall, Mr David NOES Healey, rh John O’Donnell, Fiona Adams, Nigel Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hepburn, Mr Stephen Onwurah, Chi Afriyie, Adam Dunne, Mr Philip Hermon, Lady Owen, Albert Aldous, Peter Ellis, Michael Heyes, David Paisley, Ian Alexander, rh Danny Ellison, Jane Hillier, Meg Pearce, Teresa Andrew, Stuart Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hilling, Julie Perkins, Toby Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Elphicke, Charlie Hodge, rh Margaret Pound, Stephen Bacon, Mr Richard Evans, Graham Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Bagshawe, Ms Louise Evans, Jonathan Hollobone, Mr Philip Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Baker, Norman Evennett, Mr David Hosie, Stewart Reynolds, Emma Baker, Steve Fabricant, Michael Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Jonathan Baldry, Tony Fallon, Michael Hunt, Tristram Riordan, Mrs Linda Baldwin, Harriett Farron, Tim Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, Angus Barclay, Stephen Featherstone, Lynne James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, John Barker, Gregory Field, Mr Mark Jamieson, Cathy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Barwell, Gavin Foster, Mr Don Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Bebb, Guto Francois, rh Mr Mark Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Benyon, Richard Freeman, George Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Beresford, Sir Paul Fullbrook, Lorraine Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Berry, Jake Fuller, Richard Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Joan Bingham, Andrew Gale, Mr Roger Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Birtwistle, Gordon Garnier, Mr Edward Jowell, rh Tessa Seabeck, Alison Blackman, Bob Garnier, Mark Joyce, Eric Shannon, Jim Blackwood, Nicola Gauke, Mr David Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sharma, Mr Virendra Blunt, Mr Crispin George, Andrew Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr Barry Boles, Nick Gibb, Mr Nick Keen, Alan Sheridan, Jim Bottomley, Peter Gilbert, Stephen Kendall, Liz Shuker, Gavin Bradley, Karen Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Khan, rh Sadiq Simpson, David Brady, Mr Graham Glen, John Lammy, rh Mr David Singh, Mr Marsha Brake, Tom Goodwill, Mr Robert Lavery, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Bray, Angie Graham, Richard Lazarowicz, Mark Slaughter, Mr Andy Brazier, Mr Julian Grant, Mrs Helen Leslie, Chris Smith, Angela Bridgen, Andrew Gray, Mr James Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Nick Brokenshire, James Grayling, rh Chris Lloyd, Tony Smith, Owen Brooke, Annette Green, Damian Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Soulsby, Sir Peter Browne, Mr Jeremy Greening, Justine Long, Naomi Spellar, rh Mr John Bruce, Fiona Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Love, Mr Andrew Stringer, Graham Bruce, rh Malcolm Griffiths, Andrew Lucas, Caroline Stuart, Ms Gisela Buckland, Mr Robert Gummer, Ben Lucas, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Burley, Mr Aidan Halfon, Robert MacNeil, Mr Angus Thomas, Mr Gareth Burns, Conor Hames, Duncan Brendan Thornberry, Emily Burrowes, Mr David Hammond, Stephen Mactaggart, Fiona Timms, rh Stephen Burstow, Paul Hancock, Matthew Mahmood, Mr Khalid Trickett, Jon Burt, Lorely Hands, Greg Mahmood, Shabana Turner, Mr Andrew Byles, Dan Harper, Mr Mark Mann, John Turner, Karl Cable, rh Vince Harrington, Richard Marsden, Mr Gordon Twigg, Derek Cairns, Alun Harris, Rebecca McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Stephen Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hart, Simon McCarthy, Kerry Umunna, Mr Chuka Carmichael, Mr Alistair Harvey, Nick McClymont, Gregg Vaz, rh Keith Carmichael, Neil Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McDonagh, Siobhain Carswell, Mr Douglas Heald, Mr Oliver McFadden, rh Mr Pat Vaz, Valerie Walley, Joan Clark, rh Greg Heath, Mr David McGovern, Jim Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heaton-Harris, Chris Watson, Mr Tom McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hemming, John Watts, Mr Dave McKechin, Ann Coffey, Dr Thérèse Henderson, Gordon Whiteford, Dr Eilidh McKinnell, Catherine Collins, Damian Hendry, Charles Whitehead, Dr Alan Meacher, rh Mr Michael Colvile, Oliver Herbert, rh Nick Mearns, Ian Williams, Hywel Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hinds, Damian Michael, rh Alun Williamson, Chris Crabb, Stephen Hollingbery, George Miliband, rh David Wilson, Phil Crockart, Mike Holloway, Mr Adam Miller, Andrew Wilson, Sammy Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kris Moon, Mrs Madeleine Winnick, Mr David Davies, David T. C. Horwood, Martin Morden, Jessica Winterton, rh Ms Rosie (Monmouth) Howarth, Mr Gerald Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Wishart, Pete Davies, Glyn Howell, John Morris, Grahame M. Woodcock, John Davis, rh Mr David Hughes, Simon (Easington) Woodward, rh Mr Shaun de Bois, Nick Huhne, rh Chris Mudie, Mr George Wright, David Dinenage, Caroline Hunter, Mark Munn, Meg Wright, Mr Iain Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian Murphy, rh Paul Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hurd, Mr Nick Murray, Ian Tellers for the Ayes: Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Nandy, Lisa Mr David Hamilton and Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Gareth Nash, Pamela Mark Hendrick Duddridge, James Johnson, Joseph 883 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 884

Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Whittingdale, Mr John Wollaston, Dr Sarah Jones, Mr David Poulter, Dr Daniel Wiggin, Bill Wright, Simon Jones, Mr Marcus Prisk, Mr Mark Willetts, rh Mr David Yeo, Mr Tim Kawczynski, Daniel Pritchard, Mark Williams, Mr Mark Young, rh Sir George Kelly, Chris Pugh, Dr John Williams, Roger Zahawi, Nadhim Knight, rh Mr Greg Raab, Mr Dominic Williams, Stephen Kwarteng, Kwasi Randall, rh Mr John Williamson, Gavin Tellers for the Noes: Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reckless, Mark Willott, Jenny Miss and Lamb, Norman Redwood, rh Mr John Wilson, Mr Rob Jeremy Wright Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Latham, Pauline Reevell, Simon Question accordingly negatived. Laws, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Lee, Jessica Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Question put (single Question on successive provisions Lee, Dr Phillip Robathan, Mr Andrew of the Bill), That clauses 2 to 4 stand part of the Bill. Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Mr Laurence The Committee divided: Ayes 306, Noes 218. Leigh, Mr Edward Rogerson, Dan Leslie, Charlotte Rosindell, Andrew Division No. 141] [4.21 pm Lewis, Brandon Ruffley, Mr David Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Bob AYES Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Adams, Nigel Colvile, Oliver Lopresti, Jack Sanders, Mr Adrian Aldous, Peter Cox, Mr Geoffrey Lord, Jonathan Sandys, Laura Alexander, rh Danny Crabb, Stephen Loughton, Tim Scott, Mr Lee Andrew, Stuart Crockart, Mike Luff, Peter Selous, Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Crouch, Tracey Lumley, Karen Shapps, rh Grant Bacon, Mr Richard Davey, Mr Edward Macleod, Mary Sharma, Alok Baker, Norman Davies, David T. C. Main, Mrs Anne Shelbrooke, Alec Baker, Steve (Monmouth) Maynard, Paul Simmonds, Mark Baldry, Tony Davies, Glyn McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith Baldwin, Harriett Davis, rh Mr David McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris Barclay, Stephen de Bois, Nick McLoughlin, rh Mr Smith, Julian Barker, Gregory Dinenage, Caroline Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Barwell, Gavin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan McPartland, Stephen Soames, Nicholas Bebb, Guto Dodds, rh Mr Nigel McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna Beith, rh Sir Alan Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Menzies, Mark Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Benyon, Richard Dorries, Nadine Mercer, Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Beresford, Sir Paul Doyle-Price, Jackie Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Berry, Jake Duddridge, James Miller, Maria Stevenson, John Bingham, Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Birtwistle, Gordon Iain Milton, Anne Stewart, Iain Blackman, Bob Dunne, Mr Philip Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Rory Blackwood, Nicola Ellis, Michael Moore, rh Michael Streeter, Mr Gary Blunt, Mr Crispin Ellison, Jane Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel Boles, Nick Ellwood, Mr Tobias Morgan, Nicky Stunell, Andrew Bottomley, Peter Elphicke, Charlie Morris, Anne Marie Sturdy, Julian Bradley, Karen Evans, Graham Morris, David Swales, Ian Brady, Mr Graham Evans, Jonathan Morris, James Swayne, Mr Desmond Brake, Tom Evennett, Mr David Mosley, Stephen Swinson, Jo Bray, Angie Fabricant, Michael Mowat, David Swire, Mr Hugo Brazier, Mr Julian Fallon, Michael Mulholland, Greg Syms, Mr Robert Bridgen, Andrew Farron, Tim Mundell, rh David Teather, Sarah Brokenshire, James Featherstone, Lynne Munt, Tessa Thurso, John Brooke, Annette Field, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Timpson, Mr Edward Browne, Mr Jeremy Foster, Mr Don Murrison, Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Bruce, Fiona Francois, rh Mr Mark Neill, Robert Tredinnick, David Bruce, rh Malcolm Freeman, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Truss, Elizabeth Buckland, Mr Robert Fullbrook, Lorraine Newton, Sarah Tyrie, Mr Andrew Burley, Mr Aidan Fuller, Richard Nokes, Caroline Uppal, Paul Burns, Conor Gale, Mr Roger Norman, Jesse Vaizey, Mr Edward Burrowes, Mr David Garnier, Mr Edward O’Brien, Mr Stephen Vara, Mr Shailesh Burstow, Paul Garnier, Mark Offord, Mr Matthew Vickers, Martin Burt, Lorely Gauke, Mr David Ollerenshaw, Eric Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Byles, Dan George, Andrew Opperman, Guy Walker, Mr Charles Cairns, Alun Gibb, Mr Nick Ottaway, Richard Walker, Mr Robin Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gilbert, Stephen Paice, Mr James Wallace, Mr Ben Carmichael, Mr Alistair Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Patel, Priti Watkinson, Angela Carmichael, Neil Glen, John Paterson, rh Mr Owen Weatherley, Mike Carswell, Mr Douglas Goodwill, Mr Robert Pawsey, Mark Webb, Steve Clark, rh Greg Gove, rh Michael Penning, Mike Wharton, James Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Graham, Richard Penrose, John Wheeler, Heather Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Grant, Mrs Helen Percy, Andrew White, Chris Coffey, Dr Thérèse Gray, Mr James Perry, Claire Whittaker, Craig Collins, Damian Grayling, rh Chris 885 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 886

Green, Damian McPartland, Stephen Simpson, Mr Keith Vara, Mr Shailesh Greening, Justine McVey, Esther Skidmore, Chris Vickers, Martin Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Menzies, Mark Smith, Julian Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Griffiths, Andrew Mercer, Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Walker, Mr Charles Gummer, Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Soames, Nicholas Walker, Mr Robin Halfon, Robert Miller, Maria Soubry, Anna Wallace, Mr Ben Hames, Duncan Mills, Nigel Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Watkinson, Angela Hammond, Stephen Milton, Anne Stanley, rh Sir John Weatherley, Mike Hancock, Matthew Mitchell, rh Mr Stephenson, Andrew Webb, Steve Hands, Greg Andrew Stevenson, John Wharton, James Harper, Mr Mark Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Bob Wheeler, Heather Harrington, Richard Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Iain White, Chris Harris, Rebecca Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Rory Whittaker, Craig Hart, Simon Morris, Anne Marie Streeter, Mr Gary Whittingdale, Mr Harvey, Nick Morris, David Stride, Mel John Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, James Stuart, Mr Graham Wiggin, Bill Heald, Mr Oliver Mosley, Stephen Stunell, Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Heath, Mr David Mowat, David Sturdy, Julian Williams, Mr Mark Heaton-Harris, Chris Mulholland, Greg Swales, Ian Williams, Roger Hemming, John Mundell, rh David Swayne, Mr Desmond Williams, Stephen Henderson, Gordon Munt, Tessa Swinson, Jo Williamson, Gavin Hendry, Charles Murray, Sheryll Swire, Mr Hugo Willott, Jenny Herbert, rh Nick Murrison, Dr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Wilson, Mr Rob Hermon, Lady Neill, Robert Teather, Sarah Wilson, Sammy Hinds, Damian Newmark, Mr Brooks Thurso, John Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Timpson, Mr Edward Wright, Simon Holloway, Mr Adam Nokes, Caroline Tomlinson, Justin Yeo, Mr Tim Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Tredinnick, David Young, rh Sir George Horwood, Martin O’Brien, Mr Stephen Truss, Elizabeth Zahawi, Nadhim Howarth, Mr Gerald Offord, Mr Matthew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Howell, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Uppal, Paul Miss Chloe Smith and Hughes, Simon Opperman, Guy Vaizey, Mr Edward Jeremy Wright Huhne, rh Chris Ottaway, Richard Hunter, Mark Paice, Mr James Huppert, Dr Julian Paisley, Ian NOES Hurd, Mr Nick Patel, Priti Abbott, Ms Diane Clwyd, rh Ann Jackson, Mr Stewart Paterson, rh Mr Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Coaker, Vernon Johnson, Gareth Owen Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Coffey, Ann Johnson, Joseph Pawsey, Mark Alexander, Heidi Cooper, Rosie Jones, Andrew Penning, Mike Ali, Rushanara Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Mr David Penrose, John Austin, Ian Crausby, Mr David Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Bain, Mr William Creagh, Mary Kawczynski, Daniel Perry, Claire Banks, Gordon Creasy, Stella Kelly, Chris Pincher, Christopher Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cruddas, Jon Knight, rh Mr Greg Poulter, Dr Daniel Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Alex Kwarteng, Kwasi Prisk, Mr Mark Bell, Sir Stuart Cunningham, Mr Jim Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pritchard, Mark Benn, rh Hilary Cunningham, Tony Lamb, Norman Pugh, Dr John Berger, Luciana Curran, Margaret Lancaster, Mark Raab, Mr Dominic Betts, Mr Clive Dakin, Nic Latham, Pauline Randall, rh Mr John Blackman-Woods, Danczuk, Simon Laws, rh Mr David Reckless, Mark Roberta Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lee, Jessica Redwood, rh Mr John Blears, rh Hazel Davidson, Mr Ian Lee, Dr Phillip Rees-Mogg, Jacob Blenkinsop, Tom Davies, Geraint Leech, Mr John Reevell, Simon Blomfield, Paul De Piero, Gloria Lefroy, Jeremy Reid, Mr Alan Blunkett, rh Mr David Dobson, rh Frank Leigh, Mr Edward Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Donohoe, Mr Brian Leslie, Charlotte Robathan, Mr Andrew Brennan, Kevin H. Lewis, Brandon Rogerson, Dan Brown, Lyn Doran, Mr Frank Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rosindell, Andrew Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Doyle, Gemma Lloyd, Stephen Ruffley, Mr David Brown, Mr Russell Dromey, Jack Long, Naomi Russell, Bob Bryant, Chris Dugher, Michael Lopresti, Jack Rutley, David Buck, Ms Karen Eagle, Ms Angela Lord, Jonathan Sanders, Mr Adrian Burden, Richard Eagle, Maria Loughton, Tim Sandys, Laura Burnham, rh Andy Edwards, Jonathan Luff, Peter Scott, Mr Lee Byrne, rh Mr Liam Efford, Clive Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Cairns, David Ellman, Mrs Louise Macleod, Mary Shannon, Jim Campbell, Mr Alan Engel, Natascha Main, Mrs Anne Shapps, rh Grant Campbell, Mr Ronnie Esterson, Bill Maynard, Paul Sharma, Alok Caton, Martin Evans, Chris McCartney, Jason Shelbrooke, Alec Chapman, Mrs Jenny Farrelly, Paul McCartney, Karl Simmonds, Mark Clark, Katy Field, rh Mr Frank McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Simpson, David Clarke, rh Mr Tom Fitzpatrick, Jim 887 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill1 DECEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 888

Flint, rh Caroline McDonagh, Siobhain Twigg, Stephen Wilson, Phil Fovargue, Yvonne McFadden, rh Mr Pat Umunna, Mr Chuka Winnick, Mr David Francis, Dr Hywel McGovern, Jim Vaz, rh Keith Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Gapes, Mike McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Vaz, Valerie Wishart, Pete Gardiner, Barry McKechin, Ann Walley, Joan Woodcock, John Gilmore, Sheila McKinnell, Catherine Watson, Mr Tom Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Glass, Pat Meacher, rh Mr Michael Watts, Mr Dave Wright, David Godsiff, Mr Roger Mearns, Ian Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Wright, Mr Iain Goggins, rh Paul Michael, rh Alun Whitehead, Dr Alan Tellers for the Noes: Goodman, Helen Miliband, rh David Williams, Hywel Mr David Hamilton and Greatrex, Tom Miller, Andrew Williamson, Chris Mark Hendrick Green, Kate Moon, Mrs Madeleine Greenwood, Lilian Morden, Jessica Griffith, Nia Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Question accordingly agreed to. Gwynne, Andrew Morris, Grahame M. Clauses 2 to 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Hain, rh Mr Peter (Easington) Hanson, rh Mr David Mudie, Mr George Harman, rh Ms Harriet Munn, Meg Schedule Harris, Mr Tom Murphy, rh Mr Jim Havard, Mr Dai Murphy, rh Paul CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS ETC Healey, rh John Murray, Ian Amendments made: Government amendment 14, page 4, Hepburn, Mr Stephen Nandy, Lisa line 9, at end insert— Heyes, David Nash, Pamela Hillier, Meg Nuttall, Mr David ‘Parliament Act 1911 (c. 13) Hilling, Julie O’Donnell, Fiona 3A In the Parliament Act 1911 omit section 7.’. Hodge, rh Margaret Onwurah, Chi Government amendment 15, page 4, line 16, at end Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Owen, Albert insert— Hollobone, Mr Philip Pearce, Teresa Hosie, Stewart Perkins, Toby ‘7A In section 119(2) after “mourning” insert “(but, in relation to Howarth, rh Mr George Pound, Stephen a parliamentary general election, excluding any day to which Hunt, Tristram Qureshi, Yasmin rule 2 of the parliamentary elections rules does not apply by virtue of rule 2(2A))”.’. Irranca-Davies, Huw Raynsford, rh Mr Nick James, Mrs Siân C. Reynolds, Emma Government amendment 16, page 5, line 9, at end Jamieson, Cathy Reynolds, Jonathan insert— Johnson, Diana Riordan, Mrs Linda ‘(3A) Omit paragraph (2)(ii) and the “and” before it.’. Jones, Graham Robertson, Angus Government amendment 17, page 5, line 18, at end Jones, Helen Robertson, John Jones, Mr Kevan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey insert— Jones, Susan Elan Rotheram, Steve ‘But, in relation to any proceedings commenced afresh by Jowell, rh Tessa Roy, Mr Frank reason of a candidate’s death, this paragraph is to be ignored.”.’. Joyce, Eric Roy, Lindsay Government amendment 18, page 5, line 18, at end Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Ruddock, rh Joan insert— Keeley, Barbara Sarwar, Anas ‘9A In rule 6A(4) in Schedule 1 after “rule 2(1)” insert “(subject Keen, Alan Seabeck, Alison to rule 2(2A))”.’. Kendall, Liz Sharma, Mr Virendra Khan, rh Sadiq Sheerman, Mr Barry Government amendment 19, page 7, line 10, at end Lavery, Ian Sheridan, Jim insert— Lazarowicz, Mark Shuker, Gavin ‘15A In section 22(2A) after “1983” insert “(subject to Leslie, Chris Singh, Mr Marsha rule 2(2A))”.’.—(Mr Harper.) Lewis, Mr Ivan Skinner, Mr Dennis Schedule, as amended, agreed to. Lloyd, Tony Slaughter, Mr Andy Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Smith, Angela The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Nick Bill, as amended, reported. Lucas, Caroline Smith, Owen Bill to be considered tomorrow Lucas, Ian Soulsby, Sir Peter MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Spellar, rh Mr John Mactaggart, Fiona Stringer, Graham Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr ): I now have to Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stuart, Ms Gisela announce the results of the Division deferred from a Mahmood, Shabana Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry previous day. In the Division on the Question relating Mann, John Thomas, Mr Gareth to the Scottish Parliament, the Ayes were 317 and the Marsden, Mr Gordon Thornberry, Emily Noes were 212, so the Ayes have it. McCann, Mr Michael Trickett, Jon [The Division list is published at the end of today’s McCarthy, Kerry Turner, Karl debates.] McClymont, Gregg Twigg, Derek 889 1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 890

National Policy Statements John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): I commend [Relevant documents: The Third Report from the Energy the hon. Gentleman on the work that he did on the and Climate Change Committee, Session 2009-10, on Energy and Climate Change Committee, and on which The proposals for national policy statements on energy, he congratulated everyone involved—they say that self- HC 231, and the Government’s response thereto, and the praise is no praise, but there we go. My great worry, and Minutes of Evidence taken before the Energy and Climate that of many of my colleagues on the Opposition Change Committee on 30 November, HC 648-i.] Benches, is that the poor will always suffer. While everybody else is looking for ways of saving money, they cannot do so. What will his Government do to help 4.35 pm people who perhaps cannot afford to do what is necessary The Minister of State, Department of Energy and to make the savings that he is talking about? Climate Change (Charles Hendry): I beg to move, That this House has considered the matter of the draft Energy National Policy Statements. Charles Hendry: The hon. Gentleman has often raised The revised draft national policy statements for energy this issue in the Select Committee in the past, and it set out national policy, which must be considered in should be at the heart of our thinking. At this time of determining whether consent should be granted to year, when people are struggling to pay their bills, how infrastructure projects that are examined by the they will pay them in the future is a matter of great Infrastructure Planning Commission. As right hon. and concern to us. hon. Members will be aware, the previous Administration The nature of the green deal is that it does not consulted on a suite of draft energy national policy depend on the creditworthiness of the individual statements between November 2009 and February 2010. householder. A charge will be set against the future Alongside that consultation, Parliament undertook scrutiny energy bills of their property, with the condition that of the draft national policy statements. Scrutiny in this the total cost of the energy efficiency measures should House was undertaken by the Select Committee on be such that it can be repaid through that extra charge Energy and Climate Change, which held a number of over a period of 20 or 25 years. So the people living in oral hearings, requested written evidence and published those properties will get the immediate full benefit in a report of its findings, together with 30 recommendations terms of warmth and reduced energy consumption, but and conclusions. I would like to take this opportunity to the charge will be brought back over time. We think that thank the then members of the Committee for the this policy has been devised in a way that has at its heart important work that they undertook and the thoroughness the interests of those who are fuel poor and have with which they approached it. difficulty in paying their bills. The hon. Gentleman is This afternoon’s debate is part of Parliament’s scrutiny absolutely right to say that, in all these issues, there are of the draft energy national policy statements, so I will massive costs for consumers. Our job as a Government talk about the purpose of national policy statements is to find ways of trying to drive down the number of and the changes that we have made to them, the units that consumers will be using. The green deal is parliamentary scrutiny process required for national part of that process, as is smart metering. policy statements, and the coalition Government’s proposals for planning reform. The statements are complicated, Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ lengthy documents that cover all aspects of energy Co-op): May I issue an appeal to the Minister and his policy, so I will talk at some length in introducing them. colleagues that, as the green deal mechanism is being I hope that the House will bear with me. I will also give finalised and formulated, it should not be targeted at way to any interventions from hon. Members wishing only cavity wall and loft insulation? There are many to raise concerns. However, before going into the detail properties in my constituency and elsewhere for which of the national policy statements, I would like to take a that would be no use at all, and some of those properties moment to set out the background to the coalition are among the least fuel efficient. Government’s energy policy and the need to build new major energy infrastructure, as it is against that background that such massive new investment is required. Charles Hendry: The hon. Gentleman brings to the Our energy policy is based on four pillars: energy House a huge amount of expertise on these issues and I saving, more renewables, new nuclear, and clean very much welcome his contribution. He has touched and gas. That includes the green deal, which we believe on an issue that is at the core of our thinking on how to will help to bring existing buildings up to 21st-century take the green deal forward. He is absolutely right to say efficiency standards. We are taking steps to reduce that, while a significant number of houses would be demand for gas through both energy efficiency measures helped if it were to address issues of cavity wall and loft to help improve our energy security, and demand-side insulation, there are many that do not have cavity walls response, through interruptable contracts for large users and many that need additional measures. We are looking that will ensure that domestic users are prioritised in an at the role that boilers can play in regard to energy emergency. A reduction in demand will also help to efficiency, because that area has not been given sufficient improve our energy security. Under the green deal, attention in the past. The key will be to find a range of home owners and businesses will be able to get energy measures that are relevant to each individual property, efficiency improvements without having to pay cash in the savings from which will justify the investment over advance. The private sector will provide the up-front time. I can give the hon. Gentleman an absolute assurance funding, receiving its money back from the energy that the type of houses that he is talking about in his savings on household bills. That will help to save energy, constituency, in mine, and in many others across the reduce carbon and protect energy consumers from price country will be very much included as the green deal is rises through greater energy savings. developed. 891 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 892

Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): In my Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend is right to draw that constituency, many properties are not on the gas network, to the House’s attention. As a result of one of the and there are no plans to expand the network into many changes that we have made, local authorities are now of the small villages there. Will those properties be able allowed to sell electricity directly to the grid. Rather to access alternative sources of heating through the than merely being able to host new facilities, they can green deal, perhaps through air source heat pumps and now become involved in these processes as partners. so on? They can sell the electricity that is generated, and benefit from the feed-in tariffs or other financial packages that Charles Hendry: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for are available. I hope that, in difficult times, councils the work that he has done to highlight issues such as throughout the country will see such measures as an these. We said in the coalition agreement that prioritising important potential income-earner and a way of off-grid customers would be an important part of what encouraging their communities to move in a low-carbon we are seeking to do. However, the help for them will direction. That is a critical part of Government policy. not come through the measures in the green deal. His We have said that there will be special help for the constituents will of course be eligible for support for most vulnerable. The new energy company obligation energy efficiency measures through the green deal, but will provide additional funds for those who are most in the renewable heat incentive will give them support for need and for homes that are hard to treat, which may other mechanisms such as air source heat pumps, ground need additional support. Our policy also involves the source heat pumps and solar thermal installations. There electricity market reform programme, which is a wholesale will be a different funding mechanism for that, and we redesign of our electricity market. There is no doubt have confirmed that £860 million will be made available that that process, which will begin in a few weeks, is the for the renewable heat incentive. We will set out the most fundamental reform of the market for 30 years. It precise details of that in the next few weeks, and it will involves a new way of encouraging people to invest in target precisely the people that he is most concerned , and I cannot over-emphasise the about in that respect. importance that we attach to it. The power sector needs to lead the way when it comes to cutting carbon. Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): The Minister has Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Many of my least been very effective in campaigning for the extension of well-off and most vulnerable constituents fear that in the gas network throughout the United Kingdom, but five years’ time the lights may go out. What action can what he has just said will be of little comfort to people the Government take to deal with the backlog of in many areas who simply want a choice. At present, infrastructure repairs? they have oil or liquefied petroleum gas, but they want mains gas, which is often located only a few hundred Charles Hendry: I am keen to reassure my hon. yards away from their village or hamlet. Do the Government Friend. A couple of years ago, the outlook was a cause understand their frustration? Given that the market is for great concern. The recession reduced demand by 5% failing them, would it be possible for incentives to be or 6%, and, although it has grown again, it has not given in this regard, and for the regulator to ensure that reached its previous level. What appeared to be a serious those gas connections can take place? pinch point now seems to have been pushed further out, but that does not give grounds for complacency. We all Charles Hendry: The hon. Gentleman raises an important know that cold winters and, in particular, cold still days point. Certainly, encouraging people to install renewable place immense demand on the system, and we need to heat sources, particularly in off-grid properties, is part take action to deal with that. of the solution. He is absolutely right to say, however, As much as £200 billion of new investment may be that for many people, the convenience of being on the required in our electricity infrastructure. We have to grid will be their primary concern. It must be extremely rebuild it. It would have been much better for the frustrating to live in a house close to the grid that is country if more of that work had been done before unable to benefit from it. Ofgem is working to ensure 6 May, and it would have been much better had there that the grid is extended, but that is obviously a gradual not been a five-year moratorium on new nuclear and a process. We are considering different ways of dealing delay of some years in new installations. I applaud the with the problem. Grid development is mentioned in conversion of the last Administration, which began to the planning policy papers, but we are introducing put us back on track, but a number of years were lost. other measures such as the renewable heat incentive, to help people who currently have no alternative to heating John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op) oil or liquefied petroleum gas. I hope that it can be said rose— that we are dealing with the issue comprehensively. Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab) rose— Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): Do not local councils also have an important role to play? Charles Hendry: I will give way shortly, but I hope I Cornwall council, for example, is undertaking a project shall be forgiven if I do not do so immediately, as I am involving feed-in tariffs. It will work with the third in full flight. sector in using the money that it earns from installing We need to establish a structure that will give people solar panels in the county to help those in the greatest an incentive to invest in new nuclear, clean coal, coal fuel poverty—who, as other Members have pointed out, with carbon capture, renewables—in regard to which are often off grid—not only through energy-efficiency we have great potential—and new gas plant, along with schemes but by providing heat from more appropriate gas storage. We are alive to all the challenges, and we sources, such as ground-source heat. are moving forward on all fronts. 893 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 894

John Woodcock: The Government talk a great deal and does he agree that now is the time to make sure about blank pages. Have they whitewashed their time in that these new power stations are built for the benefit of opposition, when one party was dead set against nuclear this country and the other wanted it to be a last resort? If they have converted, that is fine, but let us at least have a bit of Charles Hendry: I am keen that this coalition should candour about the process through which the Minister get larger and grander every day, so I am delighted to has got to where he is now. welcome the hon. Gentleman to it. I agree with what he said. I have already twice given credit to the previous Secretary of State. I am very happy to pay tribute to Charles Hendry: The hon. Gentleman is new to the him and the previous Prime Minister for the role they House and he might therefore be unaware of the extent played in putting nuclear back on the agenda. to which we worked very constructively with the previous Secretary of State, the now noble Lord Hutton, and In response to the question of my hon. Friend the others to try to ensure that we took this agenda forward. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), I think it is true As the hon. Gentleman has been a that the challenges we face today are in part a result of however, he will be aware that nuclear was taken off the not enough construction having been carried out early agenda for five years. There was a Government White enough. If there had been more construction in our Paper that said, in effect, “We do not see a need for new energy infrastructure over recent years, we would not nuclear in this country.”There were no qualifications to now be faced with the mountain of needing £200 billion that statement; it was just stated that there was no of new investment. requirement, full stop. For five years, that delayed the Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): I development of new nuclear. am glad to hear that the future of the nuclear industry I completely applaud the work of the previous Secretary in the UK will be a good one. Will there, however, be a of State, which has contributed to our country becoming good future for the UK supply chain for the nuclear one of the most exciting in the world for new nuclear industry, particularly in terms of the construction of development. The reality is that we were constructively these stations? What will the Government do to support involved in that process, but for five years nuclear was the supply chain? taken off the agenda. Charles Hendry: We are very keen indeed to see the supply chain benefit. We talk to the companies that are Martin Horwood () (LD): To be candid, looking to invest in this area, and they are very keen to the Minister may know that, as per the coalition agreement, use British know-how, skills and businesses. The many Liberal Democrat Members are still absolutely Westinghouse approach is to buy where it builds. Therefore, opposed to nuclear power. Will he confirm that at no together with Arriva, it has been setting up workshops point in the last 30 years has it been impossible for around the country to encourage people to show the private investment for nuclear to come forward, and if contributions and skills they can bring. From our point Government policy was not preventing that, why does of view, this is a critical part of the project. We want he think no private investment did come forward in the them to partner British companies and, as part of that last 30 years? process, we believe there is an opportunity for them to sell that package internationally as well. That is absolutely Charles Hendry: The Government are seeking to at the heart of what we want. address a comprehensive range of issues to do with new Angela Smith: Why, therefore, do the Government nuclear. There have been planning issues; for example, refuse to support Forgemasters in its bid to play a the Sizewell B project took five or six years just to go strategic part in the development of the supply chain through the planning stage. Also, regulatory justification for the future of our power stations? is a legal requirement, and that process had to be gone through. Last week, a measure on that passed through Charles Hendry: The hon. Lady is very familiar with this House with a massive majority of over 500 to a the argument. We have said that we looked at the issues couple of dozen, so there has been a significant step as we came into government and we identified those forward in that respect. The long-term cost of waste that were based on affordability, not on their importance. management also needs to be known, and that figure is We believe that Sheffield Forgemasters makes an extremely now being made clear and given to the industry. Other important contribution in this area. The Government’s barriers to investment are also now being addressed. position has been clear and what we now do not understand Therefore, although it is technically right that there was is the Opposition’s position. nothing to stop people investing in new nuclear, it is We had a vote on regulatory justification last week, also absolutely clear that the circumstances did not which approved two specific reactor types, the Westinghouse encourage people to come forward with new proposals. and the Areva designs. In that vote the shadow Business Secretary, the shadow Chancellor and the shadow Energy John Robertson: I should declare an interest: I am Secretary voted against the approval of those designs. chair of the all-party group on nuclear energy. I think How can the shadow Business Secretary make a case for the Minister is being slightly disingenuous towards the Sheffield Forgemasters when he has voted against the Opposition. It was Labour who led the fight to put exact design that it is supposed to be supporting? There nuclear back on to the table. It was not that it had been is a complete hole in the Opposition’s policy in this taken off the table; it was just that nobody really area. I hope that this shadow Minister will rise to his wanted to touch it, including Ministers who were Members feet to give us clarity on those issues, but when three of this House at the time. Therefore, in a spirit of members of the shadow Cabinet vote against the heart cross-party coalition, will the Minister accept that we of the nuclear policy, the Opposition’s policy is in did our bit in getting nuclear back on to the agenda, tatters. 895 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 896

Huw Irranca-Davies: The hon. Gentleman would not Charles Hendry: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman expect me to agree that our position is in tatters. As I for that intervention. As a new Government coming in, made clear to him in the debate on the justification we had to look at the financial commitments that we orders in Committee, when they went through with our were inheriting. We had to decide which were bad support, we would very much welcome an opportunity decisions—the Sheffield Forgemasters loan absolutely for the Minister, alongside his colleagues, to go back to did not come into that category—and which were the Sheffield Forgemasters and argue the case for making decisions we viewed as simply not affordable. Of course sure that it can be part of the supply chain. He is we would love to be able to shower money on a range of continually reluctant to do so. I suspect that that is not good projects around the country, but there is no scope necessarily because of his reluctance, but because his for doing so. As we know from the former Chief Secretary colleagues are reluctant to argue the case. to the Treasury, there was no money left. That was what the outgoing Government told us. Charles Hendry: I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman, for whom I have the highest regard, was going to Several hon. Members rose— explain what his shadow Cabinet colleagues had done in that vote. During that debate two weeks ago, we had Charles Hendry: I am keen to get back to some of the agreed fundamentally on the need for regulatory justification areas where there is consent and general agreement, but and he was speaking officially on behalf of the Opposition, I will of course give way to the Opposition spokesman. yet when it came to the deferred Division in this House a week ago today three of the most senior members of Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the shadow Cabinet voted against those reactor designs giving way. Will he acknowledge that this issue is pertinent being approved. If they had won that debate, the whole to our debate on our national infrastructure and the nuclear programme in this country would have been supply chain? It is my clear understanding, unless the brought to a standstill. If the Opposition are to have Minister can disabuse me of this, that only one other credibility in this area, we need to understand why the global supplier makes the piece that Sheffield Forgemasters shadow Chancellor, the shadow Business Secretary, who was going to make. If the company had been given that is the one who will lead on issues relating to Sheffield repayable loan, which would have been repaid to the Forgemasters, and the shadow Education Secretary, Government in short order, it would have led the global who is one of the most senior members of the Labour supply chain—not just for the UK but for export—in party, chose to try to stop nuclear power in its tracks. the reactors that we passed the justification orders for last week. It is a clear own goal. I ask the Minister to go back to his BIS and Treasury colleagues to see whether Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Is the there is still an opportunity to bring the measure forward. stark contrast between those on the two sides of the It is not too late. House not shown in the fact that the financing arrangements for Sheffield Forgemasters were cobbled together in the Charles Hendry: The hole in the argument is that the dying weeks of the Labour Government whereas just hon. Gentleman makes that case on behalf of the five months into a Conservative-led coalition Government Opposition when the shadow Business Secretary, shadow we have a comprehensive, coherent national infrastructure Chancellor and shadow Education Secretary voted against plan for the next five to 10 years? That is the difference the nuclear programme. As long as the shadow Cabinet between government and opportunism. has anti-nuclear sentiments at its highest level, any suggestion that the Opposition want a nuclear renaissance Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend makes a very important is fundamentally questionable. point. In the months just before the election an enormous number of commitments were made, and one of the Albert Owen rose— first things that we had to do as an incoming Government was to identify which of them were affordable. We went Charles Hendry: I am keen to move on to other through that process extremely thoroughly—I think we issues, but as the hon. Gentleman has such a strong have been robust about it—and Sheffield Forgemasters constituency interest in new nuclear I shall give way. entirely understands the decisions that we have made. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Albert Owen: The hon. Gentleman and I were both leads on supporting businesses in these areas and my very solid on nuclear power in the last Parliament when Department feeds closely into that process. We want the then Leader of the Opposition thought that it Sheffield Forgemasters, which is an outstanding example should be a last resort. I am pleased that the new of a British manufacturing company, to have a key role Secretary of State and the Prime Minister have made to play in the future. However, on the basis that I have their journey and are in the same position as the Minister outlined, we did not believe it was appropriate for the and I. The point about the supply chain is important. I loan to go ahead. know—the shadow spokesman is right—that if this work does not go ahead in Sheffield, Korea is the next John Woodcock: I hope the Minister will accept that port of call. That is not in the British interest. Will the it is important to correct what the hon. Member for Minister consider that as we go through these new Peterborough (Mr Jackson) said if the Government policies and talk about infrastructure, so that we can are to retain credibility on this issue. Does the keep British jobs and British business in the supply Minister accept that the issue of this loan was being chain to help the nuclear industry? negotiated for more than a year, including the time when Lord Hutton was Business Secretary, and that it Charles Hendry: I have said several times that our was very carefully considered by that Department over decision is no reflection on the quality of the workmanship that period? at Sheffield Forgemasters. The Government came in, 897 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 898 identified that £1 in every £4 of Government spending analysis suggests that demand for electricity may even was borrowed, believed that that position was unsustainable double by 2050, as we plug into the grid to power our and had to make difficult, tough choices about the right cars and heat our homes. way forward. Decarbonising surface transport is essential to meet our target to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 80% by Several hon. Members rose— 2050, as we are required to do by law. We expect electrification to play a major role in achieving that. Charles Hendry: I would give way to my hon. Friend While electric vehicles can be powered up overnight by the Member for Dover, but he was the one who made fluctuating electricity generation, trains, for example, me depart from my extremely consensual speech into will need more base load generation. We have already this area of great contention. I am keen that we should announced £900 million of investment in the electrification get on to the issues of planning policy that are at the of train lines from London to Didcot, Newbury and heart of our debate. , and for lines serving Liverpool, Manchester, Preston and Blackpool. In the new year, we will consult Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): To come on the next steps for building a national high-speed rail back to the future of nuclear power in the UK and the network, which will free up capacity to allow a shift of comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for freight from road to rail and provide an attractive Dover (Charlie Elphicke) about keeping the lights on, low-carbon option for travelling between our major Germany is now considering extending the lives of its cities. reactors by up to 12 years. I am a great supporter of the Some 80% of journeys in the UK are currently made idea that we need to replace our nuclear reactors with by car, and cars will continue to play an essential part in new nuclear reactors, but is there any scope in the our national transport infrastructure. The Government Department’s plan to extend the lives of our current announced in the spending review investment of more reactors to try to bridge that gap? than £400 million in measures to promote the uptake of ultra-low-carbon vehicle technologies. That includes the Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend raises an important plug-in car grant, which will be available from January issue. The situation in Germany is very different from 2011 and which will provide a grant of 25% of the the situation here. The plan in Germany had been to vehicle price up to £5,000. We are also continuing have an artificially early closure of the nuclear fleet, and the plugged-in places programme, which supports the Chancellor Merkel’s Government have allowed them to development of electric vehicle recharging infrastructure operate for their full lives. They have reversed a decision in strategic locations. As part of the coalition agreement, that would have brought about early closure. The approach we have also undertaken to mandate a national network that we have always taken in the United Kingdom is of vehicle recharging facilities. that plants should operate for their safe life. If there is We want to see more decentralised and community an independent assessment that they can operate for energy systems, such as microgeneration, make a longer than had been planned, that should be considered. contribution to our targets on reducing carbon emissions The case here is based on safety and security issues and and increasing energy security. However, we do not some recent life extensions have been given, which we believe that decentralised and community energy systems welcome. At the end of the day the extensions are a are likely to lead to the significant replacement of bonus rather than a building block in energy policy, but large-scale energy infrastructure, which is why there is my hon. Friend makes an important point. an urgent need for new major energy infrastructure. I want to get back to some of the key areas of the debate. Our concern is that the existing market framework Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I have flicked through will not deliver the scale of investment needed in renewables, the plans, and I cannot see any reference to hydro-power nuclear and carbon capture and storage, all of which in the context of micro-schemes. Do the Government have significant up-front costs. Our electricity market intend to support hydro-power and particularly small-scale reform programme will examine the reforms necessary projects? to restructure the electricity market to decarbonise the power sector by the 2030s while maintaining security of Charles Hendry: The Government are committed to supply and affordable prices. We must move quickly to taking us forward, and I welcome my hon. Friend’s give investors certainty about our reforms because of support in that respect. Hydro has an important the long lead-times in developing new generation capacity. contribution to make. The Minister of State, Department Our reform of the planning system for major infrastructure, of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the including for major energy infrastructure, also has an Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), who important role, as does the consultation on the revised has responsibility for climate change, set out how we draft energy national policy statements. can hope to achieve that ambition in his recent speech Reducing demand for electricity wherever possible is on the subject. Most issues that we are discussing today important in meeting our energy objectives. Our 2050 relate to major applications of more than 50 MW.Most pathways analysis shows that total UK energy demand hydro schemes will fall below that threshold and will from all sources will need to fall significantly by 2050. therefore be subject to local planning decisions. As I have mentioned, the green deal will save energy in The section of the energy policy statement that deals the home and non-domestic buildings. We will also roll with renewable energy does not cover major hydro out smart meters to help to reduce demand. However, schemes, such as major schemes involving tidal flow, those savings will be offset by increases in other areas, because at this stage there is no evidence of a serious such as the increased use of electricity in industrial and application for such a scheme of more than 50 MW. If domestic heating and in transport. Our 2050 pathways that happens, we will need either to review the national 899 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 900

[Charles Hendry] wind, offshore wind and energy from biomass and/or waste; gas supply infrastructure and gas and oil pipelines; policy statement or to introduce one specifically for electricity networks infrastructure; and nuclear power marine technologies. In this country, we have a network generation. of rivers, which are a potential source for electricity generation that we are keen to see harnessed. David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): We know that we are legally required to reduce carbon (Redcar) (LD): The Minister has discussed emissions by about 80% in the next 40 years. Can we the urgent need for new renewable electricity generation fulfil that requirement, given that of the 59 GW of new capacity. If that is the case, why is the banding review of capacity required in the next 25 years, 33 GW of which renewables not reporting until August 2012 with is needed from renewables, we have only 2 GW currently implementation in March 2013? Will he consider speeding under construction? The other 26 GW that is needed up that process, so that we can get the capital that is will, presumably, come from low-carbon nuclear. The waiting for, for example, biomass power stations released Government have made enormous progress in this area—I and get such projects under way? acknowledge that—but would there be more scope to look at nuclear if we, for whatever reason, did not hit those targets? Charles Hendry: One of the issues for investors in this area is certainty. They want to be able to plan for the Charles Hendry: I pay tribute to the work that my long term and to know what rate of support they will hon. Friend has done as an ardent supporter of the get under whatever mechanism is in place. A date of Heysham plant in his constituency and of the case for a 2013 enables people to plan a transition to whatever the new plant in that area. The role for nuclear has been set banded level will be after that. I understand the need for out clearly in the national policy statements. We believe early clarity, and if there are ways we can provide that, that it has a fundamental role, but we also have to be we shall seek to do so. We seek to work constructively realistic about what is achievable. We have identified because we understand that the alternative can be a sites that could be used for 16 GW of new nuclear hiatus in investment, with investment dropping off for a power, but that is as much as the energy companies period of years in advance of the threshold and the believe can be constructed over the next 15 years, which level of support changing. It is important, in terms of is the time scale that the national policy statements national interest, to have a continuous flow of investment. cover. That is not necessarily the end of the ambition, I turn now to the issues that have been covered in the but it looks like what is achievable and realisable over energy national policy statements. Perhaps it would be those 15 years. There is no doubt about the Government’s helpful if I briefly set out the purpose of the documents ambition in terms of new nuclear. before us today. The revised draft energy national policy statements consist of a suite of six national policy Martin Horwood: On the subject of what is realistic, statements and a number of associated documents. and referring back to what the Minister was saying They are not intended to set out new energy policy. about sustainability, is he aware that the Chartered They are consistent with and explain current energy Institution of Water and Environmental Management policy and how it relates to the planning consent process. has said that current known reserves of economically Similarly, we are not using national policy statements to extractable uranium may last only between 40 and change the standard for consenting projects. They neither 85 years? Given that other economies are also investing raise nor lower the bar on how a major energy infrastructure in new nuclear, we may be looking at the lower end of project is examined and consented. They are there to that scale rather than the higher, so new nuclear cannot explain how such decisions should be made. They set be regarded as sustainable in any real sense. out the consenting policies that need to be considered in Charles Hendry: I have certainly heard that point the examination of major energy infrastructure and the before. The OECD has a fundamentally different view decision on whether to grant or decline consent. At the of the availability of uranium stocks, and there is work same time, they will ensure that new major energy to be done in plutonium reprocessing, which would infrastructure projects respect the principles of sustainable provide an additional source of fuel. Furthermore, work development. They will allow not only the Infrastructure is being done on the development of thorium reactors, Planning Commission but developers and local residents which do not give rise to many of the concerns that to see the basis on which applications must be considered. people have about uranium reactors. A great deal of There is an overarching energy national policy statement progress can be made and, at the end of the day, the that sets out the Government’s policy on energy and decision is for investors to make. If they do not believe energy infrastructure development; an energy need that there is sufficient uranium to power their plants for statement on the need for new nationally significant their lifetime, they will not make that investment. They energy infrastructure projects; the assessment principles will base their decision on the facts available to them that need to be taken into account in examining and and they will need to be reassured about the availability deciding on proposals for energy infrastructure of stocks. development; and generic impacts for all energy The overarching national policy statement contains infrastructure, and how they should be assessed and information on the impacts that need to be considered mitigated to ensure that the right balance is reached for all energy infrastructure, while the technology-specific between securing our energy needs and protecting the NPSs contain additional information on the impacts environment. that are specific to each technology. They take into There are also five technology-specific energy national account the appraisals of sustainability. We have revised policy statements, covering fossil fuel electricity generation; the AOSs for the non-nuclear NPSs substantially, which renewable energy infrastructure, which deals with onshore is why we are a carrying out a fresh consultation. 901 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 902

We believe that the revised appraisals put readers in a £1 billion, which is more than any Government anywhere much better position to evaluate the revised draft NPSs. in the world have allocated to a single plant. We are The revised AOSs give a clear picture of the likely keen to take forward the development, but we have also significant impacts at the strategic level of consenting said that as part of the subsequent pilot projects 2 to 4, energy infrastructure projects in accordance with the we are keen to see whether that can be applied to gas. NPSs, by reference to a wide range of relevant environmental, social and economic factors. They also Ian Lavery: The Minister said that £1 billion had explain more clearly why we have not chosen a number been invested in the carbon capture and storage programme. of alternative policies that others proposed, but which There were four initial demonstration plants, the first of would not have been as good in meeting our overall which is to be a coal-fired demonstration plant. The objectives of maintaining safe, secure and affordable contract will be awarded, I believe, in December 2011. energy supplies while moving to a low carbon economy Will that not take most of the £1 billion? If so, is he and reducing carbon emissions by 80% by 2050. confident that moneys will be available to secure the We have made significant changes to the statement of phase 2, 3 and 4 carbon capture and storage projects? need in the overarching national policy statement. It now includes research that was not available for the first Charles Hendry: The hon. Gentleman makes an draft, including more detailed analysis of scenarios to important point. The £1 billion is specifically and only achieve an 80% reduction in carbon emissions by 2050. for that project. As I said, that is more than any Government We have also included more detail on what is required anywhere in the world have allocated to a single project. for an economic feasibility assessment to ensure that The additional plants will be funded either by the levy fossil fuel generating stations are carbon capture-ready. introduced in the Energy Act 2010, or from general taxation. We are looking at the best way forward in Neil Carmichael: The NPS gives great support to terms of deliverability and the Treasury is examining those of us who support a green investment bank the issue. The funding of projects 2 to 4 is separate from because it provides a framework for investment, which the funding of project 1, which has the £1 billion is necessary to the platform of support that investors available to it. might require. How important does the Minister think The revised renewables NPS has taken particular the green investment bank will be in delivering some of account of comments on biomass sustainability for the outcomes? generating stations using biomass as fuel. We have also revised the text regarding noise from onshore wind Charles Hendry: The Government have committed farms, which is different from general industrial noise, £1 billion to the green investment bank, with additional so a specific assessment methodology is used to take funding to follow in due course. I am extremely pleased that into account. that the Environmental Audit Committee is to examine The method of assessing noise from a wind farm is how the bank might work. Infrastructure banks in described in “The Assessment and Rating of Noise other countries—for example, the one in Holland, which from Wind Farms”, known as ETSU-R-97. The report was funded with ¤2 billion of initial capital, but brought recommends noise limits that seek to protect the amenity in ¤100 billion of additional finance—can play a critical of those living close to wind farms. The recommended role, particularly in getting business through the so-called noise levels are determined by a combination of absolute valley of death. noise limits and noise limits relative to the existing Returning to the technology-specific NPSs, we have background noise levels around the site at different revised the fossil fuels policy statement—document wind speeds. No. 2—to clarify the requirements for carbon capture Policy document 4 relates to gas supply and oil readiness in terms of technical and economic feasibility pipelines. We have clarified that the gas supply infrastructure in line with the request made by the Energy and Climate and gas and oil pipelines NPS covers only oil and Change Committee. natural gas pipelines and not CO2 pipelines, which will be an important matter in relation to carbon capture Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): On carbon capture and storage development. We have also added a new and storage, will new applications for gas-fired power section describing the impacts on gas emissions due to stations be treated the same as applications for new the flaring or venting of gas. coal-fired power stations in that they will have to be carbon capture-ready before they can be accepted at the Policy paper 5 relates to electricity networks. We have planning stage? tried to make sure that Government policy on undergrounding and the need to treat each application case by case is expressed more clearly. I welcome the Charles Hendry: A new coal plant will have to be decision by the Institute of Engineering and Technology equipped with some degree of carbon capture and to make an authoritative investigation of the costs of storage capability—we have made it clear that there will undergrounding, particularly in relation to the issues be no role for unabated coal in the future—whereas a that the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) has new gas plant will have to be carbon capture-ready, raised, so that we can have a clear fact-based assessment because of the much lower levels of emissions associated of the different costs involved. with modern gas plants. Emissions from the most efficient coal plant are perhaps 750 grams per kWh, whereas the figure for the most sophisticated gas plant is perhaps Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD) rose— 350 grams per kWh. Given the significant difference in emission levels, we are looking at requiring CCS to be Charles Hendry: I thought that might encourage the part of the programme. That is why we have allocated hon. Lady. 903 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 904

Tessa Munt: Thank you. Will that investigation examine than 100 different organisations, most of which were the cost of under-sea infrastructure as well? I understand new players in this area, were keen to take part in that that the project will look at networks not just underground, process, which was started by the previous Administration. but under-sea. Is that correct? A number of new organisations—new financial institutions—want to invest in our energy infrastructure, Charles Hendry: That is my understanding of the which is extremely encouraging, but to see the full report. We are all keen to have a fact-based scientific package of these measures it will be necessary to ensure assessment of the relative costs. I know that in the hon. that they see the planning changes and the funding Lady’s constituency and many others there has been mechanisms that will drive it forward. great concern and a need to know the costs of different ways of dealing with the issues, so I hope the report will rose— examine the under-sea aspects as well. Charlie Elphicke rose— Tessa Munt rose— Charles Hendry: I shall take a couple of interventions Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con) rose— and then seek to conclude my remarks.

Charles Hendry: I will give way to my hon. Friend, Andrew Percy: While we are on the subject of new who has some issues in Suffolk. players coming into our energy industry, I invite the Minister to visit north Lincolnshire and the site of the Dr Coffey: Thank you. We do indeed have issues in South Humber Gateway project, where we hope to East Anglia, and in Suffolk in particular. We have an cluster a number of offshore wind farm manufacturers enormous number of offshore wind farms, yet the green with the potential to create 5,000 jobs initially, possibly impact of pylons across our countryside is hardly palatable. rising to 20,000. It will be incredibly important to our I welcome the changes being made, and hope that we region, so I invite the Minister to join me and my hon. will have more detailed calculations of the costs and the Friend the Member for Cleethorpes () impact of the benefits. on a visit some time soon.

Charles Hendry: I shall give way again to the hon. Charles Hendry: I know that both my hon. Friends Member for Wells and deal with both issues together. have done sterling work in pushing the case for the South Humber Gateway. I would be delighted to see Tessa Munt: How can I and my constituents be the planned work to get a clearer understanding of the assured that the study is wholly independent and is not ambition. It is typical of many of the ambitions of in any way informed or directed by National Grid? people who see a fantastic new opportunity emerging in the energy sector, and we are keen to encourage that. I Charles Hendry: I would hope that the nature of the imagine that my hon. Friend the Member for Dover Institute of Engineering and Technology, and its track (Charlie Elphicke) will make a similar plea for a visit. record for independence and fact-based assessment, would be sufficient to assure everyone that a thorough Charlie Elphicke: I do not wish to trouble the Minister approach will be taken. There is no doubt in any of our to come down to east Kent, but for the benefit of the minds that if anybody tried to steer its conclusions one House will he say how many power stations were brought way or the other it would publicly require them to go into operation during the last Parliament? The only one away. I am absolutely satisfied that the process will be that we in Kent can recall is the dirty Kingsnorth power independent and robust, but in due course the institute station. On the need for more funding and the need to will publish the full report so that it can be peer-reviewed. build infrastructure and green infrastructure, I recall that during the last Parliament not many power stations Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Before were brought on line. the hon. Gentleman leaves EN-5, will he reflect on the question that he raised previously about investment in Charles Hendry: A number of gas powered plants new infrastructure through the electricity markets as were brought on stream. The last nuclear they stood, and the extent to which that investment was Sizewell in the 1990s. There has not been a new stayed in existing equipment to shore up the electricity clean coal plant yet because people need to know how market? In the new circumstances, where investment in the carbon abatement technology will move forward. infrastructure will increasingly be required before the Gas has been the fuel of choice: 60% of the consented replacement of plant, will EN-5 reflect that change plant—12 out of 20 GW—is gas. What people want to fully? If not, could the energy market reforms that he build remains to be seen, but there is significant interest. will undertake shortly inform a revision of EN-5 to take We now need the policies to drive this forward. those new circumstances into account? I want rapidly to conclude my remarks with a few Charles Hendry: We have to see the national policy additional points— statements as part of the process. They are an integral part of an improved planning process, but they are not Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con) rose— the full package. Electricity market reform will also be a key element in incentivising people to invest. Let me Charles Hendry: An enormous number of colleagues give an example of how things are changing. I was are keen to speak in the debate, but with your forbearance, recently with Ofgem launching the second round of Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will allow my hon. Friend to offshore grid transmission infrastructure bids. More intervene as he is a member of the Select Committee. 905 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 906

Christopher Pincher: I am grateful to my hon. Friend terminal to investor certainty, UK energy security and for being so generous. May I take him back to his earlier our low-carbon future. There is a real need to get on remarks about energy security and how the national with that work. policy statements will feed into our energy security? On that thought, the shadow Front-Bench team and Energy security not only relates to the Department of I—and I am sure the whole House—send our best Energy and Climate Change, but has an impact on the wishes to the Secretary of State and his team on their Ministry of Defence, the Foreign and Commonwealth negotiations in Cancun. In government, Labour adopted Office, the Department for International Development the world’s first legally binding framework to cut emissions, and the . How do the threads by 80% by 2050, signalling our clear intent and leadership in our national policy statements interweave to ensure on tackling climate change. My right hon. Friend the that across all those Departments we have a holistic Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) played approach to energy security? a difficult hand with some great skill and not insignificant personal commitment at Copenhagen when he was Charles Hendry: One thing that has struck and impressed Secretary of State, and although the job has not become me most as an incoming Minister has been the extent to any easier, we hope that the new Secretary of State will which Departments work constructively together, with keep the momentum going. information shared appropriately and buy-in from every Let us reprise where we are, as laid out in the documents Department on policy proposals. My Department clearly before us. One quarter of the UK’s generating capacity leads on the energy market and the Treasury is critically will close by 2018, and as much as 30% will need to be involved in setting a carbon price, which we believe is replaced by 2020. Without prompt action we face an part of the process, but there is a holistic approach and electricity generation gap in the next 10 to 15 years as investors are looking at that to make sure that there is our nuclear and coal-powered stations are retired. World joined-up government. energy demand is rising and often highly politicised; as I want to close, so perhaps I can respond in my North sea reserves decline, we are increasingly reliant winding-up speech to any additional points about the on imported oil and gas; and, as the Minister says, exact way in which we will take the process forward. electricity demand is forecast to double over the next Having spoken for the best part of an hour, I feel that 40 years. That will require rapid decarbonisation of the many hon. Members on both sides of the House will electricity sector, diversification of the energy sector wish to have a chance to contribute fully to the debate. with a decreasing reliance on fossil fuels and unabated In conclusion, our reforms of the major infrastructure combustion, and an increasing reliance on renewables, planning process will ensure much greater democratic low-carbon energy and decentralised energy. accountability. Ministers will be responsible for decisions We will also require development of carbon capture to consent to or refuse major infrastructure development, and storage and renewables technology for the UK and and there will be a binding vote in the House on for international markets. We will need to create sufficient whether to approve national policy statements. Our capacity to meet electricity generation needs at all times, debate today is about whether the House has considered and we will need to put the necessary supply chains in the matter of the draft energy national policy statements, place. I will not go over the issue of Sheffield Forgemasters and I look forward to listening to it and having the again, as it has been well aired already. We will require chance to hear the expertise that so many hon. Members the development of smart grid and electricity networks have to offer. to meet the needs of a reconfigured, smart and diverse electricity infrastructure and, of course, investment in Several hon. Members rose— gas infrastructure.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. As the Ian Lavery: The doubling of the electricity recovery Minister says, a number of Members will be trying to rate over the next 40 years is vital. As was mentioned, catch my eye during this debate. Therefore, I am introducing the first phase of the four demonstration plants will a seven-minute limit on speeches. cost up to £1 billion. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is essential that funding is found from somewhere to 5.31 pm fund phases 2, 3 and 4 if we are to meet our electricity requirements over that period? Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have indicated to you through the Huw Irranca-Davies: Yes, I agree entirely. It was usual channels that, if it is your wish, I am more than wonderful news that after a slight delay to do with the happy to forgo any concluding remarks so that more coalition agreement, getting things in order, and some people have time to make their contributions. wrangling with the Treasury, we had the announcement I welcome this general debate about national policy that £1 billion would be available—the commitment statements, which is timely and necessary. I thank the that the Labour Government had made to the first Energy and Climate Change Committee for its continuing phase of CCS on a commercial scale. However, it is effort and expertise and, of course, the Committee on equally essential that we have phases 2, 3 and 4. I am Climate Change for its recommendations and analysis. sure that the Minister is committed to continuing that We share much of the Minister’s analysis of the challenges, wrangling with the Treasury to ensure that we find the but that is not surprising because, as I say with some mechanisms that will allow that to happen, and promptly. humility, my predecessors laid the groundwork that he We need it for coal, but we also need it for gas. I is continuing. We are glad to see him and his colleagues welcome the in-principle announcements that have been taking up the baton with such relish, because they do so made about phases 2, 3 and 4, but what we are waiting at a critical juncture, when delay and dithering would be for, as with so much else, is the detail to make it certain. 907 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 908

Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): Given Although I welcome this debate, we now have only that the previous Government had a complete lack of one hour and 20 minutes to debate issues that, as I am policy on energy, threatening constituents such as mine sure the Minister will agree, are critical to our national with the possibility of their lights being switched off for strategic energy needs and to the balance between those long periods in the next 10 years or so, I find it a bit rich needs and democratic accountability at national and that the hon. Gentleman is lecturing us somewhat, local levels. Unlike the over-long process of reconsultation, although I appreciate the consensus on some issues. this short debate demonstrates all speed, but limited Does he at least agree that the national policy statements accountability. It will therefore be impossible to do brought forward by this coalition Government are a justice to the six core energy documents and the great step forward in attracting the kind of investment accompanying materials. This must be seen instead as a that we need to ensure that the lights are left on? useful staging post to a much longer debate in this place in Government time. Huw Irranca-Davies: Well, we can debate who can I will begin with some points on the reform of planning claim credit for the NPSs. Of course, they were instigated in relation to NPSs, in response to the Minister’s opening and developed under the last Labour Government, but remarks. I give credit where it is due; I will come to that in a moment in looking at some of the detail. We agree that Martin Horwood: Before we leave the question of there has been some improvement in the intervening six Labour’s legacy, can the hon. Gentleman put a figure months—it will be nine months by the time they are on the unfunded liabilities for cleaning up the last eventually signed off—but they were in darn good generation of nuclear power? Some estimates put it as shape before, and they were ready to go. The hon. Lady high as £160 billion. Does that sound accurate to him? pushed me on trying to claim the credit entirely, but these are the Labour Government’s documents. They Huw Irranca-Davies: That question should probably have been refined and improved, but they were already be put to the Minister. I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s in place. long-held position on nuclear power. I pay credit to the Minister and the Government for pulling the coalition into a semblance of agreement on nuclear—albeit with Charlie Elphicke: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? the odd person against it—which means that we can move forward. Huw Irranca-Davies: Let me make a tiny bit of progress. Labour’s Planning Act 2008, which underpins this This short debate is informed by the ongoing matter, made the planning system for major infrastructure consultation—or perhaps I should say, for the benefit of quicker, more efficient and much more predictable. It the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie laid the conditions for essential new investment in the Bray), reconsultation—on the national policy statements. UK’s infrastructure, including large-scale, low-carbon The coalition Government have taken this opportunity energy projects. The coalition Government have a to pause, to reflect, and to revise them. In a way, that is responsibility to ensure that their plans, which include a good thing, because it has allowed more time for scrapping the Infrastructure Planning Commission, do deliberation, but—let us be frank—it will also have cost not add delays or remove the clarity and certainty that a vital eight or nine months by the time that the final industry needs to invest in new renewable and nuclear NPSs are produced in January. That is a luxury that has capacity, and low-carbon energy. I give credit to the inevitably led to a delay in our national efforts to secure coalition Government and the Minister, because they a long-term energy security future. have wisely decided, despite the unnecessary delay, to continue with the Labour Government’s national policy Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): Is it not the statements, with the revisions, rather than wait for case, though, that the report by the Energy and Climate wholesale reform of the planning system. That is a Change Committee criticised the previous Government welcome recognition of the excellent work of the Labour for leaving it quite so long to get to the stage where the Ministers who formerly occupied the Minister’s office NPSs were being considered? It published its report in and of my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster March 2010, when the Government had had from 2005 North. onwards to put them in place. Christopher Pincher: The hon. Gentleman waxes eloquent about the right hon. Member for Doncaster North Huw Irranca-Davies: Indeed. The hon. Lady will have (Edward Miliband). Can he therefore explain why the noticed that between March 2010 and now an election Public Accounts Committee, when it reviewed the got in the way. The national policy statements were in Department of Energy and Climate Change, said that it place, and this Government, had they so chosen, could lacked a definite sense of energy and purpose under the have picked them up and run with them, or alternatively, now Leader of the Opposition? as happened when we came into office in 1997 and had our policies ready to go having worked them up with Huw Irranca-Davies: The ball is now firmly in the the civil service, they could have got on with it straight court of the Minister. There is an issue with the urgency away. We will be nine months delayed by the time we and delivery of some the Government’s ambitions that have these documents before the House for full we share. They must get on with it. consideration. Rather than take further interventions, I will get into the nitty-gritty. Some of my questions for the Minister Dr Thérèse Coffey rose— arise from his appearance yesterday before the Energy and Climate Change Committee, which, as usual, did a Huw Irranca-Davies: I will make a little progress. very good job. 909 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 910

When we return to this matter with the finished of the very strict limitations that bind them. His decision articles in front of us—the final, beautifully honed, is strictly limited, involves the application of policy to a polished NPSs—will we be afforded adequate time? particular set of facts and requires the exercise of discretion Will each national policy statement have adequate, separate and the application of the principles of natural justice. parliamentary time in line with the coalition Government’s It is not a prescription for localism, political interference stated aim of enhancing parliamentary scrutiny of NPSs or ministerial hokey-cokey. It is about policy and facts. in their planning reforms, or will they be mixed together May we safely assume that the NPSs, once presented like a bag of all-sorts? If the coalition Government are to the House by the Minister in January, will be a fait true to their aims, the Minister should help us through accompli? May we assume that he will have satisfied the usual channels to push for days, not hours, to debate himself, in a quasi-judicial role, that the NPSs presented the NPSs. Much as we dearly love the Secretary of State are fit for purpose? He will listen to fellow MPs, but his for Communities and Local Government—we may ask mind will be made up. On that basis, will he tell us, first, who would not do so, when he is described on the front what is the point of putting the NPSs to the House if page of his website as “an absolute star” and a “saintly they represent his full and final view? Secondly, if he figure”, among other less self-effacing and more humorous has a mind to amend them, what specific examples can things—when it comes to debating energy NPSs, we he give that would cause him to change his quasi-judicial want the Minister of State, Department of Energy and view and alter the documents, and what further time Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles delay would ensue? Hendry), or the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change. We want them—no one else will do. Charles Hendry: I hesitate to intervene on the hon. Can the Minister guarantee that he and his DECC Gentleman after my own comments went on for quite a colleagues will not be squeezed out of their seats by the while, but I wonder whether I can provide clarity on right hon. and saintly Member for Brentwood and that issue now. The quasi-judicial aspect relates to a Ongar? ministerial decision on a planning application, not to In the coalition’s drive for parliamentary scrutiny, I the approach taken to the national policy statements am sure that the Minister will be able to confirm today themselves. We are in the course of a three-month that there will be a separate vote on each NPS, having consultation, which will finish on 24 January. There will been unable to confirm it yesterday to the Energy and quite possibly be amendments to the NPSs after that, Climate Change Committee. To mix the nuclear issue which will be in the final version put before the House with those of fossil fuels, renewables, pipelines and the for debate, assessment and a vote. We do not have a electricity network infrastructure would tax the wit of quasi-judicial capacity in that respect. My comments Wilde and the wisdom of Solomon. For us mere mortals, about acting in a quasi-judicial capacity related to will he make representations through the usual channels ministerial decision making on individual planning to ensure that the votes are separate? applications under the rules set out in the NPSs. Will the Minister explain to the House why he has set against the calls to make an NPS amendable? We Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank the Minister for that understand that there will be a take-it-or-leave-it vote. It intervention, but will he clarify two things? Has he just would be interesting to hear the justification for taking said that NPSs will be amendable on the Floor of the scrutiny so far but no further. He might have a very House. He will sign off and present NPSs to the House, strong rationale for that position, such as wanting to but will he sign them in a quasi-judicial role, or will he avoid the unpicking of an NPS that has been through perform such a role only in respect of individual planning exhaustive consultation, but we need to hear it. applications? There is a more fundamental point to be made about Charles Hendry: There is confusion between the approval the parliamentary scrutiny of the NPSs, which goes to process for NPSs and the role that Ministers will take in the very heart of the planning reforms that the Government respect of individual planning decisions when the IPC are developing. The argument advanced by the coalition has been abolished. On individual planning decisions, is that democratic accountability is best assured by Ministers will act in a quasi-judicial capacity, but on laying the NPSs in front of the House and making a NPSs, a revised consultation period to take account of Minister, hopefully this Minister, answerable for them. the initial representations—we felt that improvements In fact, he said back in June: needed to be made—will end in January. If further “A fast and efficient planning system is critical for facilitating revisions are necessary, a document will be put to the investment in much needed new energy infrastructure. By abolishing House for its final consideration and approval. the Infrastructure Planning Commission we will ensure that vital energy planning decisions are democratically accountable.” Huw Irranca-Davies: Is the Minister suggesting that His colleague the Minister of State, Department for the final document will be amendable and subject to a Communities and Local Government, the right hon. decision by the House, as I think I heard him say from a Member for Tunbridge Wells (), went further, sedentary position? It would be helpful if he could saying: clarify that, because we are talking about significant “Today the coalition is remedying those deficiencies by putting decisions over the future energy needs of this country. It in place a new fast track process where the people’s elected is important that the House knows whether it is voting representatives have responsibility for the final decisions about on a batch of NPSs or on each one individually and for Britain’s future instead of unelected commissioners.” how long they will be debated. It is also important that Yet we understand that for the Minister, the consideration the House knows whether it has the ability to amend of the NPSs is a quasi-judicial decision. He has described NPSs. If so, would that cause delays? My assumption is it as such. Ministers, formerly myself included, are used that if the House changes any individual NPS, it will to making quasi-judicial decisions and are made aware need further consideration and possibly consultation. 911 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 912

[Huw Irranca-Davies] may I urge—or should it be “nudge”, in the Government’s new lexicon?—the Minister to get on with that pronto? The Minister’s officials would certainly become involved, He has honestly and publicly acknowledged that there and relevant stakeholders would need to be consulted. is no future for coal in the UK unless that technology is There would be a minimum of 13 weeks’ consultation, made to work. However, there is also a global imperative, as recommended by civil service guidelines, but possibly as developing nations rush towards their own coal-powered a heck of a lot more. It would be helpful to get some futures. As such, this Government must avoid any further clarity on those issues before we debate NPSs. delay on the complete CCS programme of work. However, what if CCS on a commercial scale does Charlie Elphicke: Speaking of clarity, can the shadow not work? What if there are delays because of cost, lack Minister explain why we are threatened with the lights of funds or complexity, or because the technology to going out in 2015? Should he and his party not apologise bring it forward is not available on time, or even not at for that shocking situation? all? We all want CCS to succeed—we all say that it has to succeed—and we are full of hope that it will, both for Huw Irranca-Davies: If the hon. Gentleman is seeking UK energy security and abating the global exploitation apologies, may I suggest that he starts by knocking on of fossil fuels. However, a reasonable man—and a the door of No. 10? He should ask the Prime Minister reasonable Minister—cannot just assume that that will why it took so long for him to move from a position of happen, and must therefore make contingency plans. equivocation on nuclear new build to a position of indifference. Following Labour’s leadership, the Prime Minister finally rowed in behind on the need for nuclear Martin Horwood: Given that carbon capture and new build. The five-year hiatus to which the Minister storage technology has been in use on a commercial referred happened, as someone remarked earlier, scale in the United States for some 40 years—albeit not because there was no appetite in the country or among on the same scale as that envisaged for the power the body politic to move forward on new nuclear. We stations in question—what does the hon. Gentleman showed leadership; certain individuals rowed in behind, imagine the technical barriers will be? but it took them a long time to do so. For the sake of taxpayers, who are always in the mind Huw Irranca-Davies: I am glad to say that I am not of the coalition Government, will the Minister tell us an engineer, but that is exactly the point behind the what he knows about the cost of abolishing the IPC? large-scale commercial CCS pilots. That is exactly why What are the costs of the transition to the new major we are running them, and we all hope that CCS will infrastructure unit within the planning inspectorate? work. Indeed, I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s confidence Will there be savings for the taxpayer, and if so, will he that it definitely will work. However, there are some or the Government publish those figures after the debate? nagging “What ifs?”. What if CCS is not delivered on time, or cannot happen because of the technology, the In the absence of the much anticipated localism Bill, scale or the investment? where in the reformed process does localism rear its lovely head? Will the Minister explain how parliamentary In my short time in this post, I have come to realise scrutiny of NPSs, which represent the Minister’s that the Minister’s Front-Bench colleague, the hon. opinion on the strategic needs of the UK, allows for Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), positively localism? If the answer to that question is not in the exudes enthusiasm. Indeed, he leaves a trail of enthusiasm Government’s response and if we will not be told in wherever he goes, and for every conceivable energy January, where is it? source. His enthusiasm is demonstrated in photo-ops What is the expected lifespan of NPSs? I ask that for around the country and around the world, but what if a very good reason. The Minister recently spoke with the latest enthusiasm for decentralised energy, which clarity and purpose at a meeting of the World Coal the Minister mentioned, and combined heat and power Association, which I was pleased to attend, and made a is not realised, because the electricity grid is not smart bold prediction. He said with certainty that next spring, enough to make it work locally or because the right he would draw a line in the sand on his forthcoming incentives are not in place, or for other reasons? decisions on a range of market mechanisms and incentives, I have a final “What if?” for the Minister: the nuclear including electricity market reforms, carbon floor-pricing, “What if?”. He has been categorical in recent days— emissions performance standards, capacity payments heroically categorical—that new build nuclear is on and so on. The NPSs are part of that line in the sand, schedule for 2017-18. Yet he knows that the Health and giving investors certainty for years ahead, yet they do Safety Executive will not be issuing final certificates not stand alone. There are so many “What ifs?”, and the next year on the two designs that this House has taken Minister has to take these into account—it is like multi- through in the past few days through justification orders, dimensional chess. but will instead issue interim certificates. There is more I know that the Government do not particularly like work to be done on the designs and, equally importantly, the idea of school sport, as we discovered yesterday, but the build speed of new nuclear, as evidenced by delays the Minister has been indulging in his favourite sport internationally, in Europe, the US and Asia. with his ministerial colleagues—an extreme sport known The coalition Government have struggled to come to as Treasury-wrangling. After some delay, he came out terms with their identity crisis on nuclear—do they love with a partial win, announcing the first stage of commercial it or hate it, and will they unequivocally support it or sit CCS—carbon capture and storage—which has delivered, on the fence—but the Minister deserves some credit for after a slight delay of six months, the first part of helping his Lib Dem comrades down off the fence. Labour’s commitment to CCS. We look forward to him However, the industry still waits for the long-term certainty rapidly bringing forward not only that pilot, but the of market signals that will bring forward the investment three others, including a pilot on gas CCS. However, at all, let alone on time. So, there are “What ifs?” on 913 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 914 nuclear, decentralised energy and CCS, as well as on areas, and if that were to happen, we, as a constructive other things, if only we had the time to discuss them in Opposition would have to work jointly with the Government this short debate. to fathom a way in which we could still deliver de-carbonised energy, hit our carbon reduction targets and deliver Martin Horwood rose— energy security and affordable energy. I have not even touched on the issues of the green deal and the green Huw Irranca-Davies: I will not take another intervention investment bank that were raised by other Members because there are other people waiting to speak. earlier. That is why we need to see the Government’s working assumptions, the detail behind the Minister’s Meanwhile, part 3 of the overarching energy policy development of these NPSs and, as soon as possible, statement details new electricity projections. It outlines the proposals for electricity market reform. the need for 59 GW of new capacity by 2025, of which as much as 33 GW will be from renewables, thus leaving I am pleased that the Minister is talking a lot about a significant potential gap, on top of the energy gap the intentions behind the NPSs, but we are really up that we already acknowledge, if the Minister’s best laid against time. I know that he will once again stand up plans do not come to fruition. This raises the question and say that that is all the fault of the previous of how the Minister can avoid re-carbonising instead of Administration, but actually it was the previous de-carbonising the energy sector if an unabated dash Administration who put in the foundations for what the for expensive imported gas rushes in to fill the looming coalition Government are now rightly taking forward. energy gap. The dash for gas and the energy gap could We will look to the Government to make good, and we be made far worse if any of the “what ifs” were to will be constructive in helping them, but the House and happen. The Minister has honestly and openly accepted the Energy and Climate Change Committee need to be that gas will form part of our journey to a de-carbonised able to wrestle with the facts as well as with the broad future, but how will he ensure that we do not stumble thrust of the statements. I have spoken longer than I into a new generation of unabated gas use by default? intended to, and I look forward to hearing the comments of other Members. As a former Minister, I recognise the problem of dealing with highly complex issues and scenario planning. I therefore ask the Minister to share with the House his 6.3 pm scenario planning and risk analysis for the energy market, before we come to debate the national policy statements Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): We in detail on the Floor of the House in January. If there have had a tour de force from the Minister and the is to be real democratic accountability, the House needs shadow Minister on many of the issues in the national to see the complete assumptions on which the Minister policy statements for energy. I shall restrict my comments is making his case for the NPSs and for the energy to an issue that affects my constituency, which is the list market underpinning them. We assume that these have of suggested nuclear new build sites and, in particular, been done. If nuclear, CCS, decentralised energy or a the Dungeness site. At present, there is an A station and whole host of other variables were delayed or undeliverable, a B station at Dungeness, and the site was included on what is plan B, plan C or plan D, and would any of the previous Government’s original list of 11 sites to be them allow us still to reach our aims on energy security consulted on. Before the general election, it was removed and low carbon energy? from the list after the initial stage of the consultation, In that regard, what is the Minister’s response to the and it has remained off the list of potential sites to be recommendation of the Committee on Climate Change, taken forward within the national policy statement in in response to the proposals for national policy statements the draft consultation that has been presented to Parliament. on energy, that the Government act on the Committee’s I have already discussed the issue in debates in the proposal that the widely accepted concept of fully House and in Westminster Hall and I do not want to go de-carbonising the electricity sector by 2030 should be over all the ground again, but I do want to deal with made explicit in Government policy and NPSs? It has some specific points raised by the draft national policy been widely accepted anyway, and it would drive the statement which may be of interest to other Members. achievement of the 2050 targets on greenhouse gases. Let me say first that I am grateful to the Minister for the The Committee asserts that making explicit that interest that he has taken in the subject, for his time, and commitment would drive forward decision making on for agreeing to meet me later in the month, along with new generating capacity and give certainty to investors representatives of Shepway district council and Kent regarding the Government’s overarching energy policy. county council, to establish whether any progress can be made. Dan Byles: The shadow Minister has highlighted the I note from the draft statement that the Government concern that many of the Government’s plans are predicated consider the site of Dungeness nuclear power station to on CCS working and on investment in nuclear coming be a credible site for a new power station should the through, and he has asked what plan B is. Can we look principal concerns about it be addressed during the rest forward to hearing from those on his own Front Bench of the consultation period. Those concerns lie chiefly what their plan B would be if they were in government? with Natural England’s objection to the development in a special protected area, a Natura 2000 reserve with a Huw Irranca-Davies: I can give the hon. Gentleman a European designation. Dungeness is the only site under guarantee that we are committed to assisting the consideration in the initial consultation in which Government to deliver this, but to ignore the potential development would take place within a protected area. scenarios of not making good in any one of these areas There are problems with the other sites that the Government would be to bury our head in the sand. There are real believe can be solved, but the problems affecting Dungeness concerns that there could be delays in one of these remain. 915 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 916

[Damian Collins] the local population and businesses to find a more collaborative and integrated approach in preference to the prescriptive approach My constituents have particular concerns. They are it is currently favouring.” typical of many communities living alongside nuclear We would certainly welcome that. power stations who have grown used to them, and are Turning to the nature of the national policy statements, gratefully respectful not only of the energy that they the site report on Dungeness states: contribute but of the large amount of employment that “Given the nature of the issues at Dungeness, it may be easier they bring to the communities that they serve. The to ascertain that there will not be adverse effects on the integrity existing Dungeness B station brings about £20 million a of the SAC at the detailed project level of an application for year into the local economy in Romney Marsh and in development consent.” my constituency. That is not to be sniffed at: it would be My concern in that respect is that no energy company difficult for a community to obtain the same amount of would take forward such a proposal for Dungeness if it investment from any other source. were not included in the list of preferred sites. The My constituents’ concerns lie with Natural England’s Minister said to the Energy and Climate Change Committee objections, with which the draft statement deals in some yesterday that national policy statements detail. The statement gives an answer, but it does not “set the framework for major planning decisions. I think that the provide much further consideration that could help us thoroughness with which they address those issues gives investors to address some of those concerns. One objection is a significant amount of security.” that building on the vegetated shingle at Dungeness I agree; that is what the national policy statements are would damage the site, and that that damage could not for. However, if a site is not included in a list, even be mitigated. The counter-argument is that there would though it can in theory be taken forward, no one will do be a relatively small amount of development, and that a so without a degree of certainty. I therefore wonder new nuclear power station would take up less than whether Dungeness could be included within the draft 1% of the entire protected area and thus could not be NPS, but with caveats listing the concerns of Natural said to damage the integrity of the whole site. Natural England, which could then be addressed at a later stage. England, however, believes that the damage will be I would like us to be able to get to that stage first, greater, and that it will be impossible to mitigate. however. We would like to know what further study could be conducted. Some of the land that would be lost has 6.10 pm been developed before: it is not virgin territory that has Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): We never been disturbed. Much of the area that would be have a scandalously short time in which to address these disturbed by the building of a new power station was issues this evening. I have calculated that if we were to disturbed when the existing power station was built. We stack vertically the documents we are talking about this would like any further study to consider the areas evening—important documents fundamental to the future containing flora and fauna, and the vegetation on the of our energy planning—the pile would be 7 inches shingle, which is the reason for the designation. Natural high. We have therefore been allocated 21 minutes per England says that if that vegetation is lost, it would not inch of document. As I have seven minutes, I will come back, but in parts of the peninsula it can be seen address just one third of the documents by focusing on that where vegetation has been disturbed and lost, it has EN-1 and EN-5. However, I hope the powers that be grown back. will press through the usual channels for a lot more Is a further study possible? Could it be said that time in the Chamber to discuss these documents as Natural England’s concerns are not as great as it would they go through the consultative phase, because it is just have us believe, and that there is room for mitigation? not right that we have such a short time to get to grips We would welcome some guidance, either from the with them. Government or through the process that is taking place. EN-1 is an overarching policy document setting out At present, the response seems to be an absolute “no”, our energy planning framework for the future. It deals although there have been a series of detailed considerations. with our climate change commitments, and our EDF Energy, the owner of the current site, has made commitments to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions three presentations to the Government during the by 80% by 2050. That, in turn, means the documents consultation, and Shepway district council has presented have to address the decarbonisation of the UK’s energy the Department with its own report, written by Ian supply. The Committee on Climate Change wrote to the Jackson. I know that those views have been considered, Secretary of State for Energy on 17 June, stating baldly: but we have been given no further detailed information “The path to meeting the UK’s 2050 target to reduce emissions about why they have been rejected, and we would like to by 80% requires that the power sector is largely decarbonised in know how we can make progress. the period to 2030 (e.g. average emissions should be about 100 g/kWh The behaviour of Natural England raises a different in 2030 compared to around 500 g/kWh currently).” concern. A view is developing among local people that I assume that the Government largely agree with the Natural England is not particularly interested in the Committee on Climate Change that to meet the opinions of others, but is interested only in its own requirements of our climate change budgets this, or opinion, and that that colours its desire to extend the something like it, should be the scenario and that that protected areas beyond the current Dungeness site. At will be reflected in the planning documents that are the end of last month, Shepway district council passed published. After all, if we are to achieve these goals we a motion which includes the following paragraph: cannot just hope they will happen; we need to plan for “This Council therefore rejects any need for the extension of them, and to achieve them through a combination of the Dungeness, Romney Marsh and Rye Bay area nature conservation planning signals, market incentives and supply and designations. It further looks to Natural England to work with trading arrangements. 917 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 918

EN-1 states that under some of our pathways some “it would be for industry to determine the exact mix of the revisions have taken the scenario beyond 2025 towards remaining 26 GW of required new electricity capacity, acting the 2050 targets. It states: within the strategic framework set by the Government”. “Under some of our 2050 pathways, energy would need to be If industry decides as it appears to be deciding, it will virtually emission-free”. choose gas. If it is to be gas and that gas is unabated or only partially abated, the decarbonisation of our electricity supply will not happen. Tessa Munt: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Infrastructure Planning Commission successor body appears to be carbon-blind in its decision making under David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con) rose— the arrangements? The IPC successor body should give significant weight to any project’s carbon emissions and Dr Whitehead: I am sorry but I have to make progress ensure that cumulative emissions from the various projects because I will not get injury time for the second intervention do not jeopardise the UK’s carbon targets and their I take. budgets. The national policy statement should provide an additional safeguard to that process. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr ): You will, Alan.

Dr Whitehead: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. In Dr Whitehead: Okay, then I will take the intervention. response to the Energy and Climate Change Committee report examining the previous national policy statements David Mowat: Thank you for your help on that the Government have accepted they need to undertake matter, Mr Deputy Speaker. I agree with the hon. some sort of spatial planning arrangement which will Gentleman’s point about decarbonisation, but it prompts look at the cumulative impacts between various the question: how much cost penalty would he advocate arrangements as they progress. She is also absolutely as reasonable in order for us to go down the route of a right that in this NPS that question of decarbonisation totally carbon-free mix in the way he is suggesting? of supply needs to be part of the process, not anterior Each household in the country already pays about to it. The current level of emissions of our energy £50 for the renewables obligation. The implication of supply means that if we are to get to that position, gas his remarks is that the sum should be very much higher. at about 450 grams per kWh unabated probably will I wonder whether he has thought about that. have no part to play in the energy economy by 2030—when abated, it comes in at about 100 grams per kWh. Dr Whitehead: Indeed I have. I think we will find out What are we planning? What are we looking for in considerably more about that in the material that will these overarching documents? According to EN-1, we come out on energy market reform, particularly the are planning to require a capacity of about 113 GW of details on what a carbon floor price will look like and installed power sources by 2025, which is a substantial what capacity payments will look like to keep the energy increase on 2010 levels because of the penetration of balance more decarbonised in future. Yes, that will add wind, in particular. According to the scenario of that costs to the system and there need to be circumstances capacity projection, wind needs greater capacity to balance in which those can be abated for the public, but that is a its variability. So the 113 GW, which is an increase on particular issue for the energy market reform material the about 80 GW of installed capacity that we have at to address. the moment, will need to be installed by that point. When the Minister was asked in the recent Energy However, 22 GW are expected to go offline, including and Climate Change Committee sitting about the gap most nuclear plants and a number of power plants, that I have mentioned he said that it is possible that under the large plant directive and the industrial emissions 16 GW of the 18 GW gap could be new nuclear. That directive. So 59 GW of new power will need to be built represents 10 new nuclear power stations by 2025, and between now and 2025, one way or another. although that would solve the gap problem it has the If we reach the renewables targets for wind, and we unfortunate downside of being inherently implausible. probably will, given the amount of already The Minister may want to rectify what he said in the in planning, we will have about 33 GW of wind power light of that implausibility at a future date. on the grid. That means that we will need 26 GW of The Committee on Climate Change’s estimate for the new build non-renewables or non-wind. Of whatever nuclear roll-out, produced in 2009, said that there would type, they will, for the reasons I have outlined, need to be a maximum of three nuclear power stations online be low-carbon or lowish-carbon. Some 8 GW are under by 2020, even based on optimistic build and planning construction and almost all that construction relates to time scenarios. Indeed, as we have seen, the timing of gas. That leaves a balance of 18 GW. Some 9 GW is not the justification process has already slipped. under construction but has planning permission. The That leaves a gap that is not filled by nuclear. It is Government dismiss that as uncertain, but 5 GW of clear at the moment that there is an apparent contradiction that relates to gas; plans for a further 7 GW are under in our national planning statements. We want to decarbonise consideration, most of which also relates to gas. So it our supply, but for 2025 we are pushing towards having appears that most of the current gap is set to be a majority of gas as opposed to a small amount of made up by gas. As the Select Committee has been peripheral gas at peaking periods, which is what our told by the Committee on Climate Change, more gas is future energy supply should be based on. in the pipeline in terms of planning, permissions or That is compounded by NPS EN-5, which attempts build than we need for that future decarbonisation to collate permissions for plant and line. It will therefore strategy to work. replicate the question of providing grid capacity for The NPS says that plants as they stand and not provide new grid capacity 919 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 920

[Dr Whitehead] employment opportunities for our young through an ever-expanding apprenticeship scheme. That illustrates for plants that are not yet completed and that will be how important it is, first, to attract foreign investment needed for a decentralised and decarbonised future to Britain; and secondly, to set up a framework and a energy supply. robust plan so investors have the confidence to fulfil I do not have time to go into the matter of electricity their part in the important new energy capabilities that storage, but I hope that the NPSs will pay some attention the Minister is shaping us towards. to that question. It is not true that electricity cannot be I conclude by saying that I hugely look forward to stored, as NPS EN-1 says. It can be stored and storage hosting a visit by the Minister to Barnwood soon to see must be a future part of our increased capacity, as the at first hand the enthusiasm in my constituency both for Minister mentioned in the Select Committee yesterday. tackling the energy shortages in our country and for I hope that the Minister will reflect on that. building new nuclear power stations. Overall, the national policy statements will contribute hugely to having a 6.21 pm more robust process, and I will certainly vote in favour of them this evening. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to contribute to this stimulating debate, which is fundamentally focused 6.26 pm on the process of establishing the Government’s important Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ plan for the greatest increase in energy capacity and Co-op): I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in generation that we will see in our lifetimes. It is required, this debate. I served for a short time on the Energy and of course, to avoid a situation such as the one described Climate Change Committee before being moved on to by the line, “The lights are going out all over Europe; we other things. may not see them lit again in our lifetimes.” That phrase was used by Sir Edward Grey, the British Foreign As the Minister and the shadow Minister, my hon. Secretary at the beginning of the first world war, as a Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), metaphor for the catastrophe that was enveloping our made clear in their opening remarks, the policy statements continent, but by 2014 it could be the reality of our are important, and it is crucial that we have the opportunity energy situation. to debate them—I hope that we will have more opportunity to debate them than the short time that is available this I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister on leading evening. Bearing in mind that several Government Members us towards a plan and through a process that will attract want to speak, I will try to curtail my remarks to less the enormous new investment of some £200 billion that than seven minutes, if possible. is required to replace a third of all power stations in the next 10 years. I want to touch briefly on one aspect of it, As the Minister has said, policy statements are crucial which is the nuclear energy part. I am conscious that the to energy security, our capacity and our ageing plant, shadow Minister said earlier that our overall energy which needs to be replaced. As the hon. Member for situation was in “darn good shape” and “ready to go”. Gloucester (Richard Graham) said, they are crucial to If new nuclear power stations had been under starter’s investment, which can create and sustain jobs in the orders for 13 years, there must have been a terrible industry and the supply chain—I know that many Members problem with the starter’s pistol. on both sides of the House have a definite interest in that. Today those plans are closer to becoming reality, not least because of the contribution made by EDF and its I will not repeat the issues with Sheffield Forgemasters, plan for a new nuclear power station. It is worth reminding other than to say that it is a crying shame that opportunities Members that EDF took over the eight existing nuclear to develop, nurture and create jobs and skills will be power stations previously operated by British Energy enjoyed by other parts of the world, when we are from Barnwood in my constituency. It is also worth focused on trying—in the words of the Prime Minister—to noting EDF’s considerable investment, which will benefit “rebalance the economy”. people all over this country, of £20 billion towards the I want to touch on a couple of issues, to which I hope next new power station. That is almost twice EDF’s the Minister will respond. Many Members are more initial investment in buying British Energy. than aware of the huge frustration at the time it takes to With the new generation of nuclear power stations move an infrastructure project from planning to building come one or two other things I want to make the House and to being ready for use—the clock is, as we all know, aware of. First, the Barnwood nuclear power academy ticking. The previous Government looked to address is becoming the training academy for nuclear engineers that frustration through the Infrastructure Planning not just from this country but from all over Europe, and Commission. There are concerns that by choosing a it brings thousands of young engineers to learn their different route—by making the IPC part of the Planning trade in the centre of England. It is also running the Inspectorate—the Government might be subjecting the country’s leading apprenticeship scheme, with some certainty that investors need to further delays. In moving 400 apprentices studying on a four-year course. I am to that model, I hope that some reassurance will be optimistic that before the Gloucestershire apprenticeship given that delays will not result in investment decisions fair in February of next year, the academy will offer not being taken or in investment being taken elsewhere. more apprenticeships in finance and human resources That is absolutely crucial. as well as in the core business of engineering on the The Minister knows from our discussions that I operations side. Nuclear power is critical to the future welcome the Government’s commitment to carbon capture of our energy supply and to employment opportunities and storage and to the pilot project at Longannet. That in the energy sector—EDF will create some 2,000 jobs is the right project, given the speed with which existing over the next 10 years. It is also important in terms of coal technology can be retrofitted and be up and running. 921 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 922

As my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian with proposals that we anticipate in the localism Bill, Lavery) said in an intervention, it is also important that they will create the right processes that will enable the gas forms part of future carbon capture and storage development of sustainable and secure energy supplies projects. I have heard the Minister refer to that, but I for the UK. I believe that the new policies should would be grateful if he reaffirmed it and gave further provide an efficient and democratically accountable information. Otherwise, we will miss out on technology system, and a fast-track process for major infrastructure that can be developed, tested and used in this country, projects. There is no doubt that there is an urgent need which goes back to my earlier point about some of the for a new energy structure in the UK. In developing that jobs and skills that can be nurtured in this country but structure, the right balance must be struck between exported elsewhere. When the Prime Minister and others consenting to and building new energy infrastructure go off to China, India and other parts of the world and the importance of protecting our environment and evangelising for UK manufacturing industry, there is the quality of life for those who live in the communities potential for jobs to be created in the whole of the UK, where that important infrastructure is located. not only in one part. That can help to join up the parts of the policy agenda. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I I want to touch on some of the issues of electricity wonder whether my hon. Friend might also emphasise market reform. I know that I am getting a reputation the great importance of ensuring that energy is affordable for being able to bore on about transmission charging for the poorest people in the country. There are some for ever, but I have about two minutes, so I will bore on high-falutin’ ideas that seem to add cost for consumers, about it briefly. As the Minister will be aware, there is and they should be opposed. considerable concern in some parts of the industry that investment decisions are being limited by the current Sarah Newton: I very much agree. Far too many transmission charging regime. Although the Ofgem review people in constituencies such as my hon. Friend’s and is being conducted—I welcome Ofgem’s recent change mine, especially in rural areas, are living in real fuel in stance—we have to be absolutely clear that as the poverty and enduring the hardship associated with high electricity markets are reformed the transmission charging energy bills. regime changes too. It was designed primarily for the In establishing the right balance between environmental pre-renewables world and is not serving our interests in protection and the need to build new infrastructure, my achieving our overall targets for reducing carbon. There hon. Friend the Minister must take very seriously the is potential for that industry to develop, partly, but not points my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and entirely, in Scotland, where investors could be put off Hythe (Damian Collins) made about Natural England. making a number of decisions on projects as a result of Many of us up and down the country face the problems the current transmission charging regime. he described. There has been a lot of talk about the importance of the green investment bank. The idea originated under I welcome in the draft statement the recognition of the previous Government and has been carried forward the important role that local authorities will play in the under this Government. It is crucial that we get the development and consideration of proposed major energy model right. It has to be about levering in green investment projects. The extent to which local authorities wish to on a certain scale if it is to have any positive impact. be involved in the planning process has always been, and will continue to be, up to them, but the new regime I use my last few seconds to reiterate my plea to the is a significant improvement, giving local government Secretary of State for Scotland—which he seemed to statutory rights in the process and ensuring that its begin to agree with—that the green investment bank be views are adequately taken into consideration. In addition, based in Scotland, given the industry and the expertise rather than imposing additional costs, there are potential that is there. savings for local government from the new regime, as shorter hearings and quicker decisions should ensure that in future local authorities do not incur the costs 6.32 pm incurred now. Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I am As hon. Members will be aware, I represent a constituency pleased to be called to speak in this important debate. in Cornwall, where we aspire to be world leaders in the Like many MPs, I believe that the first responsibility of new low carbon industrial revolution. As a result I have any Government is the security of its citizens, and I take a particular interest in how the relevant parts of the that responsibility very seriously. Securing our energy NPS support the development of renewable energy. We supplies is vital for the well-being and prosperity of the are blessed with an abundance of natural resources that people who sent us here to represent them. The failure make us ideally situated to develop significant quantities of the previous Government to invest, despite the so-called of low carbon electricity to feed into the national grid. boom years and their great appetite for spending other In the universities of Exeter and Plymouth and the people’s money, has led to our being far too dependent Camborne school of mines, we have a world-leading on imports to supply our national energy needs. Why? knowledge base in renewable and sustainable energy. In As we are discovering from so many other areas of local companies such as GeoScience and Kensa policy that we have inherited, the reason is the previous Engineering, we have pioneering and highly skilled Government’s failure to fix the roof while was engineering companies. The wave hub off Cornwall’s shining. There has been a lack of coherent and consistent north coast is the first of its kind in Europe and it policy to enable the UK to have a secure energy supply. enables the testing of prototype wave and tide devices. Like any industry, the providers of energy need a We have great light for photovoltaics, an abundance of clear and timely planning process, and the national onshore wind and the hottest rocks in the UK. What we policy statements are a step in the right direction. Along do not have is a national grid infrastructure able to take 923 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 924

[Sarah Newton] wind at the South Humber Gateway, which has been progressing somewhat slowly through the planning system, the anticipated volumes of electricity that can be generated owing to similar problems to those mentioned by other locally to be fed into the grid. I believe that the NPS will Members in relation to Natural England. In fairness to help to tackle that wholly unsatisfactory situation. both Natural England and the developers, I should say Although I understand the Government’s reasons for that there has been significant movement in recent days feeling that there is no urgency about including technologies and we may well get agreement. The planning structure such as wave and tide in the NPS until large-scale is a problem for us because the developers are looking commercially viable schemes have been developed, I at sites not just in the UK, but internationally. Unless urge the Minister to keep them in mind for the next we get that right, we risk losing a potentially huge round and subsequent revisions and, in the meantime, amount of investment, in this case to other countries in to do all he can to support that sector of renewable Europe. energy generation and to keep a watching brief on how I was pleased to hear the Minister talk about the the Marine Management Organisation handles its review of overhead lines, which are another massive responsibilities. He will not be surprised to hear a issue in my constituency. The national grid seems to similar plea from me for deep geothermal energy generation, criss-cross all over some beautiful Lincolnshire and east which has the potential to contribute 5% of the UK’s Yorkshire countryside. I shall follow the proceedings electricity. That technology, which is tried and tested in with interest. other countries—often developed by UK engineers—is On the relationship between national policy statements yet to receive the support it deserves from Government and local councils, I echo some of the concerns expressed in this country. With my hon. Friend’s assistance, I hope by the Energy and Climate Change Committee, which to reverse that. said: Given the scale of the challenge ahead, it is vital that “We are concerned that the current status of the NPSs within NPS is capable of being revised and updated, so that, as the wider planning system is, at best, ambiguous.” we learn more about new and emerging technologies I note the Government’s response, which states that and develop an evidence base for their capacity to “the degree to which Government policy, including the policy in deliver energy into the grid and to contribute to the the NPS, or draft NPS, is relevant to any particular planning Government’s aim of decarbonising electricity production, application...isnotforGovernment to prescribe.” they are supported and given the chance that inclusion They go on to say that they therefore do not believe that in the NPS will provide. any additional guidance is necessary. I ask the Minister to reconsider that. Having served 6.39 pm as a local councillor for 10 years, I know that it is an undeniable attraction to planning officers to look for Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): It is a delight leadership from national Government in local planning to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and decisions. Could we have a clearer statement that the Falmouth (Sarah Newton), who spoke about the energy NPSs will not impact on local planning decisions and potential of the hot rocks of Cornwall. I shall say should not be used as an excuse? We saw regional something about the energy potential of the East Riding spatial strategies often being drawn into planning of Yorkshire and north Lincolnshire, which it is my applications, where they had no real role. The temptation privilege to represent. My rocks may be a little colder, is irresistible to many planning officers to look to however. national policy for guidance. Perhaps that can be considered We already contribute significantly to the energy in more detail when we debate national policy statements infrastructure of this country, not least through the next year. power stations just outside my constituency and the I welcome the general direction of policy. The debate constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for today has been interesting, with the Minister and the Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), at Drax and shadow Minister working on a consensual cross-party Eggborough, as well as through the coal-fired power basis on many topics. That is significant on a subject station at Keadby in my constituency. There are also the that is so important to the country. I look forward to potential opportunities that I raised with the Minister seeing the Minister at the South Humber Gateway earlier with regard to offshore wind at the South Humber shortly, and I thank him for that. Gateway. I shall not mention in the presence of my neighbour, my right hon. Friend and the Member for Haltemprice and Howden, onshore wind turbines, as he 6.43 pm and I are engaged in a number of skirmishes with Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): I shall keep various developers. my remarks brief, as I am conscious of time. I welcome today’s debate, which has ranged much It is extremely important that we get energy policy broader than simply the national policy statements. We right. It is right that the Department has reconsulted on have gone into many wider areas of energy policy. The it, rather than rushing ahead, as it might have done. If national policy statements will contribute to putting we get energy policy wrong, we will live with the our energy policy on a much more secure footing, which consequences for decades to come. There is a huge we recognise is essential if we are to attract the necessary infrastructure challenge. As has been mentioned, we investment to keep the lights on in this country, as other need to replace about one third of our entire energy Members have mentioned. generating capacity in the next 10 years. I shall speak about two issues associated with the All our nuclear power stations bar one will be off line potential for offshore wind. I mentioned earlier the by 2023, and we need to rebuild substantially, if not potential for clustering the manufacturing for offshore completely, our energy transmission infrastructure if 925 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 926 we are to move towards a smart grid, which we will need impacts. I will write to the Minister in detail about those to enable the 21st century energy infrastructure that we if I may, but certainly there are paragraphs in EN-1 that are trying to put in place to work. This huge infrastructure relate to the historic environment where there is weakened challenge translates into a huge investment challenge. protection for non-designated but still important heritage Some £200 billion of investment is required in the assets, and there are impacts on the visual landscape coming years. To put that into context, I point out that that relate to the regional economy departing from it is approximately one third of the entire investment in existing protections for nationally designated areas such energy infrastructure that the whole of Europe will as national parks or areas of outstanding national require. EDF is looking at spending some £20 billion on beauty. In addition, EN-1 also seems to advise applicants what we hope will be the first of a new generation of on how to circumvent green belt protection. nuclear power stations. That £20 billion represents the Finally, I cannot reflect the comments that were largest single investment by a French company outside made earlier, and I should like to be sure that there is France, I think ever, but certainly since the second some way in which local authorities can negotiate a world war. We need another nine just like that if we are realistic contribution from developers, especially, for to hit our £200 billion. example, for residents in my area, which will be At the risk of over-emphasising this issue, let me say providing a storage facility for nuclear waste on a that we absolutely have to get the investment climate temporary basis that I understand to be somewhere in right. We need to put in place a stable regulatory and excess of 100 years. investment climate that will give investors the confidence to invest staggering sums of money for 30 or 40-year timelines and beyond. The investment challenge here is 6.49 pm probably the biggest single part of the issue that we are Charles Hendry: We have had a good debate. It has discussing today. I therefore strongly welcome the broad been brief, but it is part of the process, not the end, and degree of cross-party consensus that we have on our there will be further opportunities to discuss the issues emerging energy policy.Investors must have the confidence at length when the House returns in the new year. We that we will not lurch from one energy policy in this have had a very good mix, involving national interest country to another with potential changes of Government, and a great tour of the energy opportunities horizon in but work together and put something in place that will the constituencies of many Members on both sides of give the confidence for 10, 20, 30, 40 years or more. the House. One of the most encouraging outcomes of That is all I want to say. It is a plea as much to those the debate is the recognition that, throughout the country, on the Opposition Front Bench as to those on the people are looking at how we can generate electricity in Government Front Bench. We must ensure that we put a new way. Where are the new opportunities? The hot together an investment and regulatory regime that will rocks in Cornwall and the cold rocks in Yorkshire—the not change, that will be stable and give the confidence great opportunities that we find around us—are something that is necessary if we are to have the investment that we that we should truly celebrate as we look at the issue. need. The hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), who speaks for the Opposition on these matters, talked 6.46 pm about who should take the credit, Labour Ministers or Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I will return to my favourite Conservative Ministers? I do not think it should be any subject of the electricity grid, particularly as it affects of us, because it should be our incredibly hard-working Somerset, Suffolk and the other areas that have been officials, who have done almost all the work in getting mentioned today. Electricity networks have a significant us to our current position and an outstandingly good effect on the beauty and tranquillity of the countryside, job on a very complex set of documents. and to date the industry has been guided by a set of The hon. Gentleman talked about the delay. We wish principles called the Holford rules in routing new overhead that there had not been one, but we recognised that in lines. I particularly want to note that the second draft of the previous draft statement there was a flaw in the the NPS on electricity networks proposes to weaken the appraisal of sustainability, and we felt it right to re-interpret standing of the Holford rules. The latest draft says only that in order to make it stronger and clearer. Because that decision makers that was so fundamental and in the overarching national “should bear them in mind”. policy statement, it seemed right that we should re-consult That is likely to mean that there will be no requirement on all the statements, and it has been absolutely the on either the electricity companies to demonstrate that right way to take the matter forward. they have sought to avoid damaging impacts on important On the question of how the process will move forward, areas of landscape, or that the decision maker should we have assumed that there will be a debate about the base its evaluation for proposed overhead transmission national policy statements overall and, at the end of the line schemes on whether the Holford rules have been day, votes on the individual statements, but we do not met. Neither does there seem to be an expectation anticipate the scope for hundreds of amendments to that the mitigation measures suggested in EN-5, at them. We have changed the previous Government’s paragraph 289, should be carried out for schemes where decision that there would be no vote at all, because we one or more of the Holford rules are not met. The effect believe it important that, as part of this democratic of this will be seriously to weaken the protection of the process, the House should have the chance to vote on countryside from unnecessary or intrusive energy them. infrastructure. The hon. Gentleman asked also about the role of The other minor points that I would like to make localism. There is a difference between the nationally include the wording of several sections of the NPS critical strategic infrastructure, which we deal with in where minor changes of wording could have major the national policy statements, and the local agenda, 927 National Policy Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 National Policy Statements 928

[Charles Hendry] Barnwood EDF facility. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) is absolutely right to where we believe that local authorities should have talk about the skills agenda and the supply chain significantly more power when deciding on the issues opportunities that we are determined to realise. that come to them below the 50 MW. Of course, the My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth views of local people, directly and through their local (Sarah Newton) focused on energy security and the authorities, will be an integral part of individual planning issues surrounding the wave hub and deep geothermal applications, and they will be heard. resources. I look forward to visiting those facilities with I shall pick up on some of the other points that have her in due course. My hon. Friend the Member for been raised during the debate. My hon. Friend the Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) talked about the supply Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) chain and his concerns about power lines, which we talked about Dungeness, and from our conversations completely understand. and his consistent representations, I understand where My hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) he is coming from. We recognise that the development spoke about the Holford rules. We will reflect on the of a new nuclear power station at Dungeness would be concerns that she expressed, but we must also have a continued source of employment and bring economic clarity about what benefit local areas will achieve from benefits to the surrounding area, but the Government these new investments. That is at the heart of the are obliged by law to consider adverse affects on the localism Bill. Thinking about how local communities integrity of European-protected sites which might be should benefit in terms of business rates and other caused by development and to consider alternative sites direct benefits coming into their communities will if those impacts cannot be mitigated. completely transform the relationship between these Dungeness is not on the NPS, because we have not facilities and the communities who host them. That will yet been persuaded that a new nuclear power station be an important element as we move forward. could be built there without having adverse impacts on The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West the integrity of the Dungeness special area of conservation, (Tom Greatrex) speaks with great authority on these or that adverse impacts could be avoided or mitigated. issues, and the House benefits from his expertise. He is The Dungeness SAC is the most important shingle site absolutely right that time is not on our side. The whole in Europe, so after careful consideration of the purpose of what we are trying to do is to remove the representations made so far our view that Dungeness barriers to new investment in these areas. We are absolutely should be excluded has not changed. The consultation clear that there will be no public subsidy for new nuclear, is continuing, and, if additional evidence that changes but we must then remove the other potential barriers—the that conclusion emerges in the course of the meeting regulatory barriers—to ensure that that investment can that I will have with my hon. Friend and his local go ahead. On carbon capture and storage, I can absolutely authority’s representatives, or in written submissions, give him the assurance that we are looking to gas as part we will take it into account. of the next projects. The market-sounding exercise showed The hon. Member for Southampton, Test a significant interest in gas, and we will therefore open (Dr Whitehead), who speaks with such authority, raises up this competition to gas plants as well. several issues, but I shall focus on the role of gas. We see The hon. Gentleman talked about EMR and the cost a need for gas, but part of the issue is that we have of transmission. We have to look at this in a new way. inherited a situation in which new nuclear cannot be People will not build power plants if they do not believe built until the end of the decade, because its construction that they can get their power to market. Historically, did not start earlier. Further, when it comes to the power plants were built in the coal centres or outside mass roll-out of renewables, we are third from bottom the big industrial centres; now, we are looking at new in the whole EU. We have great ambition but start from places for them to be built. We have to look at this a long way behind. Carbon capture and storage on a afresh, and I am delighted with the work that Ofgem is major commercial scale cannot play a massive role until doing to look at the best structure for the process. I will the end of the decade, although our ambitions for that leave others to deal with the issue of the location of the are high. green investment bank. Gas will therefore have to be part of the process; that Finally, I want to deal with some of the points made is the simple, practical reality. Gas-powered stations can by the hon. Member for Ogmore. He mentioned “what be built quickly; gas requires lower capital expenditure if?” scenarios. He was right to do that, but we are in that than other technologies, so the write-off period is lower; “what if?” environment because of the situation that we and importantly it is flexible, so it can back up other, inherited. After 13 years, we have to get £200 billion of more inherently variable technologies. new investment coming into the infrastructure. If more Of course, the issue of emissions will be critical. That decisions had been made to take forward the role of is why we are taking forward the work on the carbon nuclear and not to have the five-year moratorium, we floor price and looking at emissions performance standards would be significantly further advanced, and the challenging and the other measures that will be brought to bear, energy situation in the middle of this decade would not which investors will need to take into account as they have applied in the same way. make decisions on these critical investments. The time My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire scale of that is now almost upon us. In the next few (Dan Byles) talked extremely clearly and effectively weeks, before Christmas, we will set out how the electricity about the energy security needs that we have to address. market reform process will work. It is possible that CCS may not work, or that the price My hon. Friends took me on a fascinating tour of the may be too high, but if we do not push the process country. We heard about the nuclear opportunities in forward and take advantage of the extraordinary Gloucester and the great training opportunities at the opportunities that we have in this country, we will 929 1 DECEMBER 2010 930 always be followers and never be leaders. That is why we Libel Law have been so keen to take forward that technology. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House The hon. Member for Ogmore suggested that do now adjourn.—(Mr Goodwill.) decentralised energy may be unable to deliver as much as we hope, and he may be right. However, we are right 7pm to try to look at what can be done locally, although we are doing it against the backdrop of how much more Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): If should have been done historically. In the end, this all the world has a capital of free speech, it is Britain. If it comes back to the broad portfolio of policies that we has a centre of free speech, it is this Chamber, as you are putting forward—the need to have clarity on national know well, Mr Speaker. Yet in the last few years, Britain planning issues, which is exactly what these documents has become a watchword for something else—the use of are about, and the need to have clarity on the market our libel law to suppress free speech. structure that will exist. This is not an esoteric philosophical issue. Free speech The hon. Gentleman talked almost as if EMR—the is the mother of freedom of thought and freedom of market reform process—was his own idea. Seven months thought is the mother of many virtues, including integrity, ago, Labour Members were saying that there did not individualism and creativity. That is why Britain has a need to be a price on carbon, that there should not be vigorous and successful tradition of high culture and an emissions performance standard, and that we did science, as well as of democracy. As I will demonstrate, not need capacity payments. We are having to reinvent a all those virtues of British culture have been suppressed, market in order to take us forward and give us the to a greater or lesser extent, by our libel law. security that we need. This is part of a package. I hope As a Parliament, we have failed to defend one of our that he is in no doubt about our determination to nation’s primary virtues—free speech. We have also achieve that and to drive it forward. Let me assure my failed in the duty to protect the weak and vulnerable hon. Friends, and all hon. Members that we totally from the rich and powerful. More often than not, it is understand everything that needs to be done to drive the rich and powerful who use the libel laws to intimidate forward investment in this area. We will take nothing the less wealthy and the less powerful, as I shall demonstrate. for granted. Our goal is to make this the most attractive Perhaps the best demonstration that English libel law place in the world in which to invest in new energy has become a weapon of the rich and powerful is the infrastructure. We are determined to do that and we extent to which they choose to use the English courts look for consensus and partnership to take it forward. over any other option and over the courts of any other This debate has been a constructive and important part country. When Boris Berezovsky sued a Russian TV of that process. I hope we can conclude that we have company, he did so not in Russia, where the deed had a good debate on these issues— occurred, but in England. Similarly, Roman Abramovich chose to sue an Italian newspaper not in Rome, but in 7pm London. Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). In 2004, the Saudi billionaire, Khalid bin Mahfouz, launched a libel action against Rachel Ehrenfeld, the Business without Debate American author of “Funding Evil: How Terrorism Is Financed—and How to Stop It”. The book claimed that Mahfouz financed al-Qaeda. It was not published DELEGATED LEGISLATION here, but it was available online. Mahfouz brought the Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing case not in America or Saudi Arabia, but in Britain, Order No. 118(6)), and the court awarded him substantial damages. As a direct result, New law was changed to prevent OFFICIAL STATISTICS British judgments applying in the US and American That the draft Official Statistics Order 2010, which was laid national law is undergoing the same change. before this House on 13 October, be approved.—(Mr Goodwill.) Those rich men each brought their cases under the Question agreed to. English judicial system, rather than in the appropriate forum, because English libel law is complex, clumsy, expensive and draconian. It is 140 times more expensive to defend a libel case in England than in other European nations. As a result, it favours the wealthy man who has the most financial stamina and can afford the most expensive lawyers. Although libel tourism is not the most important weakness in English libel law, it is the starkest symptom of how unfair it can be, compared with every other jurisdiction in the modern world. Perhaps the best domestic example of this grotesquely expensive system is the Naomi Campbell case. A newspaper wrote about her drug problem. It was sued and lost on the grounds of breach of confidentiality. Although the story was true, the legal fees alone cost more than £1 million. How did all that come about? English libel law was largely developed centuries ago by English judges, as an alternative to duelling to protect the honour of gentlemen. 931 Libel Law1 DECEMBER 2010 Libel Law 932

[Mr David Davis] scientific way of dealing with criticism in medicine is tousb present the data and confront the argument. I am sure that no Member wants to see Using the law to silence legitimate criticism is to put heath littered with the bodies of dead journalists, but I shareholder interest above public health and, sometimes, am not sure how much of an improvement that new law public safety. was. It has been compounded with undoubtedly well The best known case in England, of course, is that of intentioned European Union and European Court of Simon Singh, who essentially called some of the claims Human Rights law, and we have ended up with dreadful of chiropractors bogus. The British Chiropractic unintended consequences. Association sued him and, after a protracted legal battle, One of the most egregious consequences has been the lost. Nevertheless, he ended up hundreds of thousands rise of the so-called super-injunction, which bans any of pounds out of pocket in addition to losing two years reporting of a case at all. The most extreme of those of his life—two years of stress, anxiety and the prospect was the Trafigura case, which you will remember, of financial ruin. A less courageous man would have Mr Speaker. Trafigura was accused of dumping toxic buckled, and indeed most do. That, of course, is the waste on the Ivory Coast, and for a while its lawyers purpose: to intimidate critics out of saying anything, or secured a ban on the reporting even of questions in to force a humiliating retraction, effectively gagging the Parliament. In so doing, they overturned the absolute press from reporting such criticism. right to free speech fought for and won more than two The tactics used are carefully refined. They are known centuries ago by John Wilkes. That is a suppression of as “lawfare” and are designed to focus the financial free speech in this country that no one in the House intimidation on the individual who is least able to bear should countenance or tolerate. it. The most recent demonstration of that nasty tactic There is worse yet: the crushing of free speech in would be ludicrous—bordering on the farcical—were it science and medicine. Both those disciplines advance by not so serious in its wider implications. It involves a conjecture and refutation, through the advancing of product, elegantly called “Boob Job”, sold at £125 a jar theories and the testing of them by experiment. Free and produced by a company called Rodial. The Daily dispute and unfettered argument are essential to that Mail sought the advice of a leading consultant plastic process. Yet we are witnessing, time and again, the use surgeon, Dr Dalia Nield, of the London Clinic. As one of English libel law by powerful commercial interests to might expect, she questioned its effectiveness and suggested suppress legitimate discussion of scientific fact and that if it had the physiological effects claimed for it by medical effectiveness. its producers, it might be dangerous. That is not entirely new. A famous member of this Rodial threatened Dr Nield with legal action. It has House, William Cobbett, was bankrupted by a lawsuit not threatened the Daily Mail, which carried her comments, in 1797 after he pointed out that the practice of bleeding because it has the resources to fight back, just Dr Nield, victims of yellow fever probably killed a number of to get the maximum intimidation for the minimum risk. them. He fled the lawsuit and the victims continued to The proper response of any self-respecting company be bled, and of course continued to die. would be to publish the detailed composition of its In modern times, the starkest example was the product and the data supporting its claims, and engage thalidomide case. For some time, experts to test those claims and carry out safety tests. was prevented from publishing articles alleging negligence That would be the approach of a respectable company, in the manufacture and distribution of the drug, which, but I am afraid that Rodial has not taken such an as Members will remember, caused terrible deformities approach—it has taken instead the approach of a charlatan in the children of women who took it in pregnancy. and a bully. That judgment was eventually overruled, and the law Of course, Rodial is not alone. When NMT threatened was rebalanced slightly to favour free speech in the Peter Wilmshurst with a lawsuit, it did not threaten the Contempt of Court Act 1981. Unfortunately, however, BBC, which broadcast his comments, because the BBC there are still actions by commercial companies and can fight back. When the chiropractors sued Simon other vested interests to suppress criticism of medical Singh, they did not sue , which published products and practices. his comments, because The Guardian can fight back. I shall give an example. Henrik Thomsen, a Danish That is why it is called ″lawfare″—it is the deployment radiologist, raised concerns that Omniscan, a drug used of judicial shock tactics against the most defenceless to enhance medical scanner images, was causing crippling part of the opposition. It is a disgraceful tactic, and it pain and even death in a few patients. Despite the fact should not be possible under any decently balanced that medicine advances by a process of critical appraisal, judicial system. the maker of the drug, GE Healthcare, sued him in the The effect of “lawfare” is to chill free speech in British courts, clearly in order to silence him. The suit science, medicine and many other areas. In this age of has been resolved, but another medical specialist, the the internet, that chilling effect does not stop at our eminent cardiologist Peter Wilmshurst, has faced similar borders. We should remember that English is the language treatment. At a cardiology conference not in Britain but of science. The impact of our dysfunctional laws will in Washington DC in 2007, he criticised a product made become more global as more corporations come to by an American company, NMT Medical, to deal with understand what they can do to use our laws to suppress symptoms of hole-in-the-heart syndrome. NMT sued criticism. Mr Wilmshurst not in America but in the English courts. He courageously decided to fight the case, (Slough) (Lab): I wanted to highlight specifically to defend free speech. the fact that “lawfare” operates not merely in Time and again, commercial companies take such science. My constituent, Hardeep Singh, has been action to silence critics. The proper, responsible, battling for four years in the ludicrously named case of 933 Libel Law1 DECEMBER 2010 Libel Law 934

His Holiness v. Singh. He has been accused by a sex cult The judges went on to quote Milton, writing about his leader in the Sikh tradition of libel, and it has taken up visit to Italy, from 1683 to 1689: four years of his life and thousands of pounds to “I have sat among their learned men…and been counted defend his claim in a religious dispute that, in my view, happy to be born in such a place of philosophic freedom, as they is not able to be decided by the courts. supposed England was, while themselves did nothing but bemoan the servile condition into which learning among them was Mr Davis: The hon. Lady is entirely right. I used brought…that nothing had been there written now these many science and medicine to demonstrate the starker effects years but flattery and fustian. There it was…I found and visited of “lawfare”, but she has demonstrated one of the the famous Galileo, grown old a prisoner of the Inquisition, for thinking in astronomy otherwise than the Franciscan and Dominican reasons why we debated the law on religious hatred: to licensers thought.” allow unfettered discussion of religion, which is another great tradition of British democracy. I apologise to her When the judges had finished quoting Milton, they constituent because I think of his case as Singh II, but it said: is just as important as the Singh case I cited, because “That is a pass to which we ought not to come again.” both demonstrate only too clearly that we must get a I say to the Minister: it is a pass that the coalition grip on British libel law to prevent it damaging every Government ought not to allow to come again. To aspect of our culture and tradition of free speech. achieve that, we need clearly thought through and thorough That brings me to what we should do. Regrettably, reform of this bad law, to put free speech back at the there is no single, simple solution. This week is the first pinnacle of public life in Britain. anniversary of the Libel Reform Campaign, which encompasses campaigning organisations such as PEN, 7.18 pm Index on Censorship, Sense About Science and others. There are a variety of issues that we need to address. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): I am grateful to my right hon. The cost of defending libel cases should be brought Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden down. One step would be not to remove jury trial, but (Mr Davis) for securing today’s debate on such an to introduce a tribunal process to deal with all but the important and contemporary issue. Let me start by most serious cases. The Minister might also care to tell confirming that the Government are firmly committed us about his Green Paper—published a few weeks ago, I to reviewing the law on defamation in order to protect think—in which he talks about contingent fee arrangements free speech, and that is reflected in our coalition agreement. and their possible reform, which might be another way My noble Friend Lord McNally confirmed that of reducing costs. The law should focus on protecting commitment in July by announcing on behalf of the individual reputation, without allowing heavy-handed Government that we will publish a draft defamation commercial intimidation. One step towards that might Bill for consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny in the be not to allow commercial companies above a certain first Session of this Parliament, with a view to introducing size—in fact, really rather a small size—to bring such a substantive Bill as soon thereafter as parliamentary suits unless they can, in advance, demonstrate financial time allows. damage. Our core aim in reviewing the law is to ensure that The public interest defence—again, this is something responsible journalism, academic and scientific debate that the hon. Lady will be interested in—is too vague and the valuable work of non-governmental organisations and unhelpful to authors of legitimate criticism. A are properly protected, and that a fair balance is struck stronger and clearer defence than that provided by the between freedom of expression and the protection of so-called Reynolds defence should be instituted. In reputation. We want to ensure that the right balance is particular, there should be a broader definition of what achieved, so that people who have been defamed are constitutes fair comment. In the light of what I have able to take action to protect their reputation where said about scientific and medical concerns, such a definition appropriate, but that free speech is not unjustifiably should be designed to exclude scientific and medical impeded. dispute from the courts completely. There should be intelligent limits on what constitutes multiple publication. Ensuring that the right balance is struck is a difficult For a court case to be brought in Britain, a significant and sensitive exercise. It raises complex issues on which proportion—certainly more than 10%—of the publication a wide range of differing views are likely to be held. In should have been in Britain. As the House can see, there recognition of that, I can confirm to my right hon. are many proposals—I have given only a short list—that Friend that we believe that any reform proposals will need to be considered. I should like the Minister to need to be the subject of extensive consultation, and confirm that the Government will be introducing a Bill that publication of a draft Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny, in 2011; that he will consult Index on Censorship, PEN, together with a full public consultation, represents the Sense About Science and other campaigners before most effective approach to achieving substantive provisions publishing it; and that the Government will correct this that focus on core issues of concern where legislation unintended and unwanted systemic failure in our judicial can make a real difference. system. Since Lord McNally’s announcement, the Ministry I shall finish by quoting the Appeal Court judges in of Justice held informal discussions with a range of the Simon Singh ruling. Speaking about the words used people and organisations with an interest in defamation by Simon Singh in his criticism of the chiropractors, law to ensure that their views are taken into account. they said that his These included: non-governmental organisations and “opinion may be mistaken, but to allow the party which has been libel reform campaigners; claimant representatives and denounced…to compel its author to prove in court what he has members of the legal profession; representatives of the asserted by way of argument is to invite the court to become an media and the publishing industry; internet service Orwellian ministry of truth.” providers and other internet-based organisations; and 935 Libel Law1 DECEMBER 2010 Libel Law 936

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly] to stifle investigative journalism, regardless of whether actual cases are subsequently brought—hence the fact representatives of the science community. I can confirm that the number of cases alone might not accurately to my right hon. Friend that they included, as he reflect the extent of the problem. requested, Index on Censorship, PEN and Sense About We are considering possible options carefully in reaching Science. a decision on the way forward, including the proposal My right hon. Friend featured the position of the of the Ministry of Justice libel working group for science community very strongly in his remarks. It procedural steps to tighten the rules and practice in would be inappropriate for me to comment on many of order to head off inappropriate claims at the earliest the cases that he mentioned, given that proceedings are possible stage, in cases where court permission is required pending. I can confirm, however, that we are very much to serve a defamation claim outside England and Wales. aware of the concerns about the harmful impact that In doing so, we are of course keeping in mind the fact the current law is having on scientific debate. The case that there is relevant European legislation—in particular of Simon Singh and his brave stand for his beliefs have the Brussels I regulation—on jurisdictional matters. been widely reported, and I was pleased to hear his We are also considering the difficulties caused by the position being clearly explained this evening by his MP, “multiple publication rule”—whereby each publication the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart). We of defamatory material gives rise to a separate cause of want to ensure that any provisions that we introduce action subject to its own limitation period—in relation will help to address those concerns and enable robust to online material. The effect of the rule is that publishers scientific and academic debate to flourish without being are potentially liable for any defamatory material published hampered by the threat of libel proceedings. by them and accessed online. That applies however long The discussions that we held were extremely helpful after the initial publication the material is accessed, and in identifying areas in which concerns exist and the whether or not proceedings have already been brought possible approaches to tackling the difficulties that in relation to the initial publication. We are considering arise with the current law. We have also had the benefit how we could frame a single publication rule to remove of being able to consider the range of issues raised in the current threat of open-ended liability. the private Member’s Bill on defamation that was introduced We are also considering a range of other aspects of earlier in the year by Lord Lester of Herne Hill. That the law. They include the possible need for provisions Bill was also the subject of a debate called by my hon. on renaming and codifying the existing defences of Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) in justification and fair comment; on the basis on which Westminster Hall in July this year on behalf of the an action for defamation can be brought and whether it Culture, Media and Sport Committee, which he chairs. should be necessary for claimants to show that they It is good to see him here this evening. have suffered substantial harm; on the ability of It is not possible for me to indicate today precisely corporations to bring defamation actions; on trial by what provisions might be included in the Government’s jury; on defamation in the context of internet publication; draft Bill on defamation. However, a range of issues and on issues relating to absolute and qualified privilege. have been the subject of much discussion and debate There is much ground to cover over recent months, and I can confirm that we are My right hon. Friend asked about the use of super- giving careful consideration to them, to assess whether injunctions. I can tell him that the Master of the Rolls it is appropriate to include provisions in the draft Bill. has set up a committee to examine their use. We look They include the need for a statutory defence relating to forward to seeing the outcome of its work soon. the public interest and responsible journalism. Concerns We are pressing ahead with our work to ensure that have been expressed by non-governmental organisations, publication of the draft Bill and the accompanying the scientific community and others that there is a lack consultation paper takes place on as timely a basis as of certainty over how the common law defence established possible in the new year. As well as considering the in Reynolds v. Times Newspapers applies outside the substantive law, we are determined to ensure that costs context of mainstream journalism, and that this creates in all civil proceedings, including defamation, are a chilling effect on freedom of expression and investigative proportionate. In that context, the Secretary of State reporting. This is a complex area of the law, and we are for Justice announced to the House on 15 November considering whether and how a statutory defence could that the Government were consulting on proposals for be framed in a way that is beneficial and appropriate for reform of civil litigation funding and costs in England a range of different contexts. and Wales. We are seeking views on the implementation We are also considering libel tourism. My right hon. of a package of recommendations made by Lord Justice Friend gave various examples of that. There is a widespread Jackson in his “Review of Civil Litigation Costs”. The perception that the English courts have become the Government are grateful for Sir Rupert Jackson’s report, forum of choice for those who wish to sue for libel, and in which he argues cogently that the costs of civil that that is having a chilling effect on freedom of litigation are too high and are often disproportionate to expression. I have to say to him, however, that there are the sums at issue. I also accept his fundamental argument mixed views over the extent to which libel tourism is a that achieving proportionate costs and promoting access real problem. Research conducted in the context of the to justice go hand in hand. libel working group’s consideration of this issue did not The key proposal on which we are consulting is the show a significant number of actual cases involving one to abolish recoverability of success fees and “after foreign litigants in the High Court in 2009. However, the event” insurance premiums under conditional fee non-governmental organisations have indicated that a agreements. Defendants who lose their cases are currently major problem arises from the threat of libel proceedings liable for those additional costs, which are often substantial. by wealthy foreigners and public figures, which is used Abolishing recoverability would mean that claimants 937 Libel Law1 DECEMBER 2010 Libel Law 938 had to pay their lawyers’ success fees, and would therefore who need access to justice to obtain it. The consultation take an interest in the costs being incurred on their on reform of civil litigation funding and costs closes on behalf. It is clear that if the current situation continues, 14 February 2011, and in due course the Government and claimants continue to have no interest in the legal will publish a response setting out the next steps. costs of their own lawyer if they win or in those of the I hope that I have reassured my right hon. Friend and defendant’s lawyer if they lose, the “have a go” other colleagues that we are taking focused and compensation culture can only grow. proportionate action that takes account of many of the As well as consulting on that key proposal for reform issues involved. I believe that it is very important to of CFAs, we are seeking views on implementing a ensure that the law achieves a fair balance between package of Sir Rupert’s recommendations that balances freedom of expression and the protection of reputation, measures for defendants with measures affecting claimants. and that steps are taken to bring the cost of proceedings They include introducing qualified one-way cost shifting, under control. I thank my right hon. Friend again for increasing general damages by 10%, strengthening part the valuable contribution to the ongoing debate on 36 arrangements, which encourage parties to make and these issues that he has made today. accept reasonable offers, and allowing damages-based Question put and agreed to. agreements in civil litigation, otherwise known as contingency fees. It is hoped that the proposals will result overall in more proportionate costs in all civil 7.29 pm proceedings including defamation, while enabling those House adjourned. 939 1 DECEMBER 2010 Deferred Division 940

Deferred Division Harper, Mr Mark Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Harrington, Richard Moore, rh Michael Harris, Rebecca Mordaunt, Penny CONSTITUTIONAL LAW Hart, Simon Morgan, Nicky That the draft Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 2010, Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, Anne Marie which was laid before this House on 25 October, be approved. Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, David The House divided: Ayes 317, Noes 212. Heath, Mr David Morris, James Division No. 135] Heaton-Harris, Chris Mosley, Stephen Hemming, John Mowat, David Henderson, Gordon Mulholland, Greg AYES Hendry, Charles Mundell, rh David Adams, Nigel Davey, Mr Edward Herbert, rh Nick Munt, Tessa Afriyie, Adam Davies, David T. C. Hermon, Lady Murray, Sheryll Aldous, Peter (Monmouth) Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Alexander, rh Danny Davies, Glyn Hollingbery, George Neill, Robert Amess, Mr David Davies, Philip Hollobone, Mr Philip Newmark, Mr Brooks Andrew, Stuart Davis, rh Mr David Holloway, Mr Adam Newton, Sarah Arbuthnot, rh Mr James de Bois, Nick Hopkins, Kris Nokes, Caroline Bacon, Mr Richard Dinenage, Caroline Horwood, Martin Norman, Jesse Bagshawe, Ms Louise Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howarth, Mr Gerald Nuttall, Mr David Baker, Steve Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Howell, John O’Brien, Mr Stephen Baldry, Tony Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hughes, Simon Offord, Mr Matthew Baldwin, Harriett Dorries, Nadine Huhne, rh Chris Ollerenshaw, Eric Barclay, Stephen Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunter, Mark Opperman, Guy Barker, Gregory Drax, Richard Huppert, Dr Julian Osborne, rh Mr George Barwell, Gavin Duddridge, James Hurd, Mr Nick Ottaway, Richard Bebb, Guto Dunne, Mr Philip Jackson, Mr Stewart Paice, Mr James Beith, rh Sir Alan Ellis, Michael Jenkin, Mr Bernard Paisley, Ian Benyon, Richard Ellison, Jane Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Beresford, Sir Paul Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Joseph Paterson, rh Mr Owen Berry, Jake Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Bingham, Andrew Evans, Graham Jones, Mr David Penning, Mike Blackman, Bob Evans, Jonathan Jones, Mr Marcus Penrose, John Blackwood, Nicola Evennett, Mr David Kawczynski, Daniel Percy, Andrew Blunt, Mr Crispin Fabricant, Michael Kelly, Chris Perry, Claire Boles, Nick Fallon, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Pincher, Christopher Bottomley, Peter Farron, Tim Laing, Mrs Eleanor Poulter, Dr Daniel Bradley, Karen Field, Mr Mark Lamb, Norman Pritchard, Mark Brady, Mr Graham Foster, Mr Don Lancaster, Mark Pugh, Dr John Brake, Tom Fox,rhDrLiam Latham, Pauline Raab, Mr Dominic Bray, Angie Francois, rh Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Randall, rh Mr John Bridgen, Andrew Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Redwood, rh Mr John Brokenshire, James Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Rees-Mogg, Jacob Brooke, Annette Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Reid, Mr Alan Browne, Mr Jeremy Gale, Mr Roger Leech, Mr John Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bruce, Fiona Garnier, Mr Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Mr Laurence Buckland, Mr Robert Garnier, Mark Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Burley, Mr Aidan Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Burns, Conor George, Andrew Lewis, Dr Julian Ruffley, Mr David Burrowes, Mr David Gibb, Mr Nick Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Bob Burstow, Paul Gilbert, , Stephen Rutley, David Burt, Lorely Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Long, Naomi Sanders, Mr Adrian Byles, Dan Glen, John Lopresti, Jack Sandys, Laura Cable, rh Vince Goldsmith, Zac Lord, Jonathan Scott, Mr Lee Cairns, Alun Goodwill, Mr Robert Loughton, Tim Selous, Andrew Cameron, rh Mr David Gove, rh Michael Luff, Peter Shannon, Jim Campbell, Mr Gregory Graham, Richard Lumley, Karen Shapps, rh Grant Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Grant, Mrs Helen Macleod, Mary Sharma, Alok Carmichael, Mr Alistair Gray, Mr James Main, Mrs Anne Shelbrooke, Alec Carmichael, Neil Grayling, rh Chris Maude, rh Mr Francis Shepherd, Mr Richard Carswell, Mr Douglas Green, Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Simmonds, Mark Clappison, Mr James Greening, Justine Maynard, Paul Simpson, David Clark, rh Greg Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Gummer, Ben McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Miss Chloe Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hague, rh Mr William McPartland, Stephen Smith, Henry Collins, Damian Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Smith, Julian Colvile, Oliver Hames, Duncan Menzies, Mark Smith, Sir Robert Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mercer, Patrick Soames, Nicholas Crabb, Stephen Hammond, Stephen Miller, Maria Soubry, Anna Crockart, Mike Hancock, Matthew Mills, Nigel Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Crouch, Tracey Hands, Greg Milton, Anne Stanley, rh Sir John 941 Deferred Division1 DECEMBER 2010 Deferred Division 942

Stephenson, Andrew Vickers, Martin Gwynne, Andrew Munn, Meg Stevenson, John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Mr Jim Stewart, Bob Walker, Mr Charles Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Paul Stewart, Iain Walker, Mr Robin Hanson, rh Mr David Murray, Ian Stewart, Rory Wallace, Mr Ben Harris, Mr Tom Nandy, Lisa Streeter, Mr Gary Watkinson, Angela Healey, rh John Nash, Pamela Stride, Mel Weatherley, Mike Hendrick, Mark O’Donnell, Fiona Stuart, Mr Graham Webb, Steve Hepburn, Mr Stephen Onwurah, Chi Stunell, Andrew Wharton, James Heyes, David Owen, Albert Sturdy, Julian Wheeler, Heather Hillier, Meg Pearce, Teresa Swales, Ian White, Chris Hilling, Julie Perkins, Toby Swayne, Mr Desmond Whittaker, Craig Hodge, rh Margaret Pound, Stephen Swinson, Jo Whittingdale, Mr John Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Swire, Mr Hugo Wiggin, Bill Hosie, Stewart Reynolds, Emma Syms, Mr Robert Willetts, rh Mr David Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Jonathan Teather, Sarah Williams, Mr Mark Hunt, Tristram Riordan, Mrs Linda Thurso, John Williams, Roger Illsley, Mr Eric Robertson, Angus Timpson, Mr Edward Williams, Stephen James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, John Tomlinson, Justin Williamson, Gavin Jamieson, Cathy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Tredinnick, David Willott, Jenny Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Truss, Elizabeth Wilson, Mr Rob Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Turner, Mr Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Tyrie, Mr Andrew Wright, Jeremy Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Uppal, Paul Wright, Simon Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Joan Vaizey, Mr Edward Young, rh Sir George Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Vara, Mr Shailesh Zahawi, Nadhim Jowell, rh Tessa Seabeck, Alison Joyce, Eric Sharma, Mr Virendra NOES Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr Barry Keen, Alan Sheridan, Jim Abbott, Ms Diane Cunningham, Alex Kendall, Liz Shuker, Gavin Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cunningham, Mr Jim Khan, rh Sadiq Singh, Mr Marsha Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cunningham, Tony Lammy, rh Mr David Skinner, Mr Dennis Alexander, Heidi Curran, Margaret Lavery, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Ali, Rushanara Dakin, Nic Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, rh Mr Andrew Austin, Ian Danczuk, Simon Leslie, Chris Smith, Angela Bain, Mr William Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Nick Banks, Gordon Davidson, Mr Ian Lloyd, Tony Soulsby, Sir Peter Barron, rh Mr Kevin Davies, Geraint Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Spellar, rh Mr John Bayley, Hugh De Piero, Gloria Love, Mr Andrew Stringer, Graham Begg, Miss Anne Denham, rh Mr John Lucas, Caroline Stuart, Ms Gisela Bell, Sir Stuart Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Benn, rh Hilary Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Thomas, Mr Gareth Berger, Luciana Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Thornberry, Emily Blackman-Woods, Roberta Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Mr Khalid Timms, rh Stephen Blears, rh Hazel Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana Trickett, Jon Blenkinsop, Tom Dugher, Michael Mann, John Turner, Karl Blomfield, Paul Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon Twigg, Derek Blunkett, rh Mr David Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Twigg, Stephen Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Eagle, Maria McCarthy, Kerry Umunna, Mr Chuka Brennan, Kevin Edwards, Jonathan McClymont, Gregg Vaz, rh Keith Brown, Lyn Efford, Clive McDonagh, Siobhain Vaz, Valerie Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Walley, Joan Brown, Mr Russell Engel, Natascha McFadden, rh Mr Pat Watson, Mr Tom Burden, Richard Esterson, Bill McGovern, Alison Watts, Mr Dave Burnham, rh Andy Evans, Chris McGovern, Jim Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Byrne, rh Mr Liam Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Whitehead, Dr Alan Cairns, David Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Williams, Hywel Campbell, Mr Alan Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine Williamson, Chris Campbell, Mr Ronnie Francis, Dr Hywel Mearns, Ian Wilson, Phil Caton, Martin Gapes, Mike Michael, rh Alun Wilson, Sammy Chapman, Mrs Jenny Gardiner, Barry Miller, Andrew Winnick, Mr David Clark, Katy Gilmore, Sheila Moon, Mrs Madeleine Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clarke, rh Mr Tom Glass, Pat Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Wishart, Pete Clwyd, rh Ann Goggins, rh Paul Morris, Grahame M. Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Coaker, Vernon Goodman, Helen (Easington) Wright, David Coffey, Ann Greatrex, Tom Mudie, Mr George Wright, Mr Iain Cooper, Rosie Green, Kate Crausby, Mr David Greenwood, Lilian Creagh, Mary Griffith, Nia Question accordingly agreed to. Cruddas, Jon

269WH 1 DECEMBER 2010 Candour in Health Care 270WH

clear that as well as the possible introduction of an Westminster Hall explicit statutory duty of candour, they are also considering not altering or adding to the statutory regulations, but Wednesday 1 December 2010 merely issuing new or refreshed guidance to existing regulations contained in the Care Quality Commission (Registration) Regulations 2009. [MR JAMES GRAY in the Chair] It is implied that that is more likely to be the favoured option because there is an extreme reluctance to add Candour in Health Care or alter statutory regulation. I will speak about those two options, with a view to encouraging support for the Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting introduction of a statutory duty of candour. Action be now adjourned.—(Jeremy Wright.) against Medical Accidents has campaigned on that matter for a number of years, and representatives from 9.30 am that charity met with a Health Minister to try to put Mr (Poole) (Con): It is a pleasure to forward their case about the right way to proceed. serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I start with Put simply, the situation is unacceptable. It comes as an apology: I cannot possibly do justice in this debate to a shock to most people, particularly patients and members all those who have suffered as a result of mistakes made of the public, to know that health care organisations by the national health service. I know that a lot of are in breach of no rules and will face no sanctions if people are paying attention to this debate, and I will do they cover something up or decide not to inform a my best to make the case for a duty of candour in health patient—or, in the case of a fatality, their relatives—that care, particularly a statutory duty. That would be progress. something went wrong during an operation or health In the House, if an hon. Member makes a mistake, care. however outrageous, everybody thinks that it is fair Probably more by accident than design, the current enough as long as they apologise quickly. I want to put system tolerates cover-ups and denials. People ask how forward the arguments for why honesty is the best that can happen in a modern, ethical health service, and policy and why it is best to acknowledge that mistakes the vast majority of people would agree that honesty are made in medicine and in the health service. That is with patients and their relatives is a moral and ethical part of the medical process. If people inform relatives, requirement. There is an abundance of guidance on the put their hands up and say, “We made a mistake”, that issue, and best practice dictates that honesty, or being is a far better way to proceed than what seems to have open, is the only course of action. happened in the past. We know that there are a million incidents in the I would like to thank Peter Walsh from Action against national health service each year, about half of which Medical Accidents for assisting me as I prepared for cause some harm. Within those cases, there are many this debate. Over the next few weeks, Ministers are due serious incidents, so it is a large problem. When something to decide on their preferred option for honouring a goes wrong, most people want someone to explain what commitment to require openness when things go wrong happened to their relative, mother, father or daughter. in health care. During the 2010 general election, the In part, such behaviour is part of the professional code Liberal Democrat manifesto stated: for individual doctors and nurses, and is recognised as a “We will: require hospitals to be open about mistakes, and central component of an open and fair patient safety always tell patients if something has gone wrong.” culture. However, the failure to be open and honest I do not often quote from the Liberal Democrat manifesto, when things go wrong is not uncommon. but it is probably important to do so under current Although many trusts or PCTs do act openly, a circumstances and the coalition. That pledge was also significant minority tell patients nothing. Something included in the coalition programme for government: must be done to provide parents and relatives with “We will enable patients to rate hospitals and doctors according a flow of information and an honest approach. Patients to the quality of care they received, and we will require hospitals and their families are unfairly denied crucial information to be open about mistakes and always tell patients if something about what happened during their health care procedure, has gone wrong.” and they may never learn the truth. If they do, they are That has clearly been lifted from the Liberal Democrat often deeply traumatised by the initial dishonest response manifesto. The White Paper, “Liberating the NHS”, to something going wrong. It is not unusual to find stated: people who have spent decades campaigning under “We will enable patients to rate hospitals and doctors according difficult circumstances to find out what happened to to the quality of care they received, and we will require hospitals one of their relatives. to be open about mistakes and always tell patients if something If patients suspect that something has gone wrong has gone wrong.” but have to fight to get the truth, they lose all confidence That shows consistency running from the original Liberal in the health care system and are more likely to take Democrat manifesto to the coalition programme for legal and disciplinary action. The NHS and health care government and the White Paper produced by the organisations have failed to develop a learning culture Department of Health. and the ability to learn from errors and make things Those commitments have been widely interpreted safer. Instead, they have developed a culture of defence and welcomed as going some way towards the introduction or denial; they do not want to see themselves in the of a statutory duty of candour in health care. Such a newspapers. move has been advocated for many years by patient The situation in England became even worse when groups and others, including the ex-chief medical officer, the previous Government introduced the Care Quality Sir Liam Donaldson. Recently, Ministers have made it Commission (Registration) Regulations 2009, which came 271WH Candour in Health Care1 DECEMBER 2010 Candour in Health Care 272WH

[Mr Robert Syms] things do not happen again to someone else. This debate is about setting out a context and a better way of into force in April 2010. That introduced a statutory doing things, so that we have a much more honest and requirement on health care organisations to report honourable system and families do not have to spend anonymously incidents that caused harm to the national 10, 20 or 30 years going through absolute hell. Mr Bye incident reporting system. However, it did not include told me that the start of the healing process is learning an equal requirement on the organisation to inform the the truth and knowing what has happened to one’s patient or their relatives. relative. That is a very important point. Therefore, an organisation is not currently in breach The Government have two options to consider. They of the regulations if it covers up an incident from can go for an explicit duty or for more guidance. Ministers patients or relatives. It may be bad practice, but there is often go down the guidance route. When the NHS no real sanction as long as it sends an anonymous constitution was being debated in the previous Parliament, report to the system. An organisation will be ticked off the then hon. Member for Wyre Forest, Dr Richard if it does not send a report for the purposes of national Taylor, who served with me on the Health Committee, measurement, but it will not be ticked off it fails to be raised the issue of openness and whether we could go open and honest with a patient or their relatives. Let me further down that route. He was informed by the then draw the Chamber’s attention to a document produced Minister of State, Mike O’Brien, “No, we can do it all by Action against Medical Accidents entitled “The through guidance,” yet guidance so far has not produced need for a statutory duty of candour in healthcare.” It is the results that we need. a good article for those who want to look at the more Department of Health officials met representatives detailed requirements involved. of Action against Medical Accidents and other stakeholders I pay tribute to my constituents, Derek and Joan Bye. on 16 November 2010, when the two options were As MPs, we deal with many constituents, but Mr and discussed in some detail. I shall go through the pros and Mrs Bye have had to put up with a horror story following cons of both. Option 1 is no new statutory duty but the death of their daughter, Helenor Bye, who died on refreshed guidance in respect of the existing CQC 27 April 1978 in south Wales. There was a catalogue of regulations. The pros of that are that it would require medical errors. The parents were lied to, records were no new legislation or change in the regulations. altered and their MP, John Morris, then the right hon. Member for Aberavon, held a debate in the House of Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Is not the difficulty Commons on 27 November 1979, volume 974, columns with guidance the fact that guidance is already in place 1253-64. He called for a public inquiry, although that and any other guidance would simply reiterate what it was turned down. says? Clearly, guidance by itself is not doing the trick in The situation was compounded by the fact that body this case. parts were taken from Helenor Bye, some of which have been returned over the years. The last time body parts Mr Syms: The hon. Gentleman makes a very important were received by the parents was in 2005. They have point, because we have to change the whole culture of been through the most horrific period because of what the national health service and I am not sure whether happened to their daughter, what happened subsequently guidance will do that. and, more importantly, because all along the line they felt that they were being lied to and that people were not An argument can be made that the existing CQC being open and honest. Mr and Mrs Bye have become regulations, backed up by clearer guidance, could be doughty campaigners for a more honest and honourable interpreted as making it a requirement to be open. For system of health care. They have also campaigned on example, regulation 17 has been cited. It says that their concerns about the drug Epilim. I cannot do service users should be provided with adequate information justice to that campaign today, but if any journalist and support in relation to their care or treatment. The wants to know what can go wrong, I advise them to guidance could clarify that that includes telling them if look at the case of Mr and Mrs Bye. They have had a something has gone wrong. However, one of the cons is very rough time. that, as the hon. Member for Southport (Dr Pugh) said, that would be in effect no different from the current Action against Medical Accidents calls for a change situation. Such guidance and the existing regulations in the law and the introduction of a statutory duty of already existed when the policy to introduce a requirement candour. It is called “Robbie’s law” because of the case was agreed. They were clearly not seen as sufficient of Robert Powell, who died on 17 April 1990, aged 10. then. His parents have campaigned for over 20 years to try and get justice. Similar things happened to them, such Given that the Department of Health was of the firm as changed medical records, and there was a catalogue opinion previously that the existing regulations, even of events, but they still do not feel that they have justice. with the guidance alongside them, did not constitute a Their campaign has continued under several Secretaries statutory duty to be open with patients when things go of State. The case is currently with the Welsh Assembly, wrong—because at that stage they were not supporting and Mr and Mrs Powell are waiting to hear whether a statutory duty—it is hard to see how that could be there will be a public inquiry into what happened to credible now. Robbie. Will Powell, who feels passionately about putting Such a measure would be unlikely to be enforceable. right what happened to his son and getting to the truth, Lawyers would no doubt have a field day if, given the has been a doughty campaigner for a long time. I pay above, the CQC tried to impose sanctions on a trust tribute to him. based on such a tortuous and dubious interpretation All the people whom we are talking about are, in their when the opportunity to be clear and specific had not own way, fighting for the truth, not only to find out been taken. Even if such a measure were enforceable, what happened to their loved ones, but so that such the CQC would be unlikely to give it a high priority, 273WH Candour in Health Care1 DECEMBER 2010 Candour in Health Care 274WH given the number of clear statutory obligations already I shall go through a list of some of those who would spelt out in the regulations themselves, rather than support a statutory duty of candour. I have already developed by supporting guidance. mentioned Sir Liam Donaldson, the ex-chief medical Option 1 would not have anything like the same officer, who formally recommended a statutory duty in impact as introducing a specific statutory duty, if it had 2003. Harry Cayton, chair of the Council for Healthcare any impact at all. The Department of Health would be Regulatory Excellence, has also supported such a duty. trying to say, “This has always been the case, but we The late Claire Rayner, who was a doughty campaigner didn’t realise it and didn’t think it was important enough on behalf of patients, and a former nurse, supported it. to make it clear.” That option would fail to deliver Professor Aidan Halligan, the former deputy chief medical positive opportunities for sending a clear, unequivocal officer for England, who is currently chief of safety at message about the importance of being open and would Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals NHS Trust, fail to support a major culture change. It would not deal is completely supportive of the proposal. There is also with the bizarre situation whereby there has already Sir Graeme Catto, the immediate past president of the been, since April 2010, a statutory obligation to report General Medical Council; Sir Donald Irvine, a past anonymously to the national incident reporting system president of the GMC; Sally Taber, director of Independent patient safety incidents that cause harm, but there is no Healthcare Advisory Services; Cure the NHS; Patient equal requirement to tell the patient or a relative. It Concern; and Sufferers of Iatrogenic Neglect. There is would send the message that being open with patients is broad support in the LINks—local involvement not important enough to justify a minor amendment to networks—organisation for the view that what has been the regulations. described is an important thing to do. Option 2, which I prefer and think should be given In recent years, we have become aware of a major serious consideration by the Government, is to introduce disaster at Stafford hospital. It has affected not one or a specific statutory duty by amending the existing CQC two people, but hundreds of them. Of course, it has registration regulations. That would send a clear, been the subject of much debate, many statements in unequivocal message about the importance of being the House and a lot of real concern, but had there been open, which would support and underpin other initiatives a statutory duty of candour, the management of Stafford to develop a more open and fair culture. It would be hospital would not have been able to get away with the enforceable. The CQC has confirmed that it would be poor standards of treatment and nursing and the fact practical for it to enforce such a measure. Of course, it that many hundreds of people lost their lives. Such a would be a condition of registration with the CQC. It duty is a very important and practical measure, and if would have real impact: boards and management could the NHS is to mean anything to the people of this not escape noticing the change or recognising the need country, being open and honest with those who have to comply. At the moment, even when doctors or nurses suffered as a result of what are sometimes unavoidable want to be open with patients, sometimes the management accidents is the best way to proceed. of PCTs or of hospitals are less keen. We must send a There are clear benefits to introducing a statutory clear message so that the whole organisation undergoes duty, and there is an historic opportunity in that regard. a major culture change in how it deals with patients. I listened to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State talking over the weekend about more transparency. Option 2 would balance out the existing statutory Introducing such a duty would be a brave step, because regulation where it is a statutory obligation to report all the advice from people in the Department of Health anonymously patient safety incidents that cause harm would be, “Careful, Minister. Don’t do anything that but there is no equal requirement to tell the patient or a might have long-term costs.” relative. It would not add to the regulatory burden on However, in the modern age—an age of freedom of health care organisations, and I think that it would information, when thousands of documents appear on enjoy public confidence, which is a very important thing the internet—it is not unreasonable that a cornerstone to have in this area. That option would be relatively of the NHS in this century should be that people are easy to achieve. The con is that it would require a up-front and honest, and tell the truth when something change in the regulations, so there would possibly be goes wrong. Things inevitably do go wrong—not necessarily some legislation. deliberately, but simply because that is the way of the In my opinion, option 2 is the best way to go. It is not world and medical science. People can then understand something that is supported only by a few oddbods; what has happened to their relatives. such a change has the support of many people, including As my constituent Mr Bye said, “The start of the many senior people in the medical profession. I know healing process after the loss of a loved one is to know that there are concerns about compensation and litigation, the truth of what happened.” It is a very poor thing if but the evidence from the United States, where many Governments cannot tell the truth. One has to acknowledge insurers now do insist on a more honest system, is that that truth has not always been the essential component when people receive an apology, they are less likely to of the NHS that it should be. I propose that the Government sue. When they find out what happened to their relative, give serious consideration to a statutory duty of candour, they accept that mistakes are sometimes made and they because that is the best protection for those who use the are less likely to pursue lengthy and costly legal action. health service and for higher standards. The best protection People are sometimes pushed into legal action by the is that all of us believe in honesty in public life. sense of injustice that they feel when their relative has undergone harm or perhaps died in the course of treatment. They feel a sense of injustice and are then driven to take 9.50 am that action. Of course, many of the costs to the NHS Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): It is a are from the legal fees, not necessarily the money paid pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, out in compensation. Mr Gray. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member 275WH Candour in Health Care1 DECEMBER 2010 Candour in Health Care 276WH

[Tom Brake] Friend the Member for Poole said, the medical professionals may want to be open but, unfortunately, they are being for Poole (Mr Syms) on securing the debate and on advised by managers, who are not subject to the same lucidly and concisely setting out precisely why the professional codes and perhaps believe that less openness Government should look carefully at a statutory duty is the best course of action. My hon. Friend referred to of candour. I have not heard any effective arguments the Stafford case, and, as I understand it, it was a legal against it, but I will come on to some arguments from officer who sought to suppress the doctor’s report in opponents. My hon. Friend set out why the duty would that case. When the General Medical Council was asked boost public confidence and he rightly pointed out that to confirm how many cases it had brought against an apology—as we have probably all experienced—often, a doctor specifically for a breach of this part of its code, first, helps to secure closure for a family if a loved one it confirmed that it has not brought a case against a has been involved in a tragic accident, and, secondly, single one. can defuse a difficult situation that could end up in the My hon. Friend also referred to the very sad case of courts for years afterwards. He has rightly set out the Robbie Powell and the sterling efforts that the family reasons why a duty of candour is a necessity. have made. I am pleased to see that Mr Powell has My hon. Friend started by quoting from the Liberal joined us here today. Democrat manifesto, and I would expect nothing less in the coalition, so there is no need for me, as a Liberal Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. Democrat, to do so. He also mentioned that the proposal has been carried through to the coalition agreement Tom Brake: I am sure that Mr Powell will be listening and, subsequently, into the NHS White Paper, which— carefully to what is said and reading the remarks in although it perhaps does not contain a proposal as Hansard later. That family have played a major role specific as a duty of candour—certainly makes it clear in bringing this issue to our attention and are working that hospitals need to be open about mistakes and with AvMA to promote what they hope will become always tell patients if something has gone wrong. One Robbie’s law. development to which he did not refer was the fact that The MPS has provided information that I think legal aid will no longer be available in cases of clinical works against its case. Its research shows that, at the negligence, which I hope the Minister will pick up on in moment, a third of doctors are not prepared to be open her response. I wonder whether that will have an impact and honest when an accident occurs. If so many doctors and whether that strengthens the case for a duty of feel constrained from or concerned about being open candour. when an accident has occurred, it supports the case for a culture of candour. The MPS also refers to states in As I said in my opening remarks, there are opponents the United States where there is a duty of candour and of a duty of candour. A briefing has been sent to where it perceives that there may be a difficulty in Members by the Medical Protection Society, which is a enforcing the duty. In his remarks, my hon. Friend the “leading provider of comprehensive professional indemnity and Member for Poole made it clear that the Care Quality expert advice to…health professionals around the world.” Commission has confirmed that it could and would The briefing states that the society is committed to enforce a statutory duty, and would be in a position to promoting openness in health care and supports the do so, if that were part of its regulations. principle in the NHS White Paper that hospitals should Another issue that the MPS raised, which we need to be open about mistakes and always tell patients if respond to, is that the proposed duty would not include something has gone wrong. However, it goes on to say near misses. It is arguing against the duty of candour, that the MPS strongly believes that a change in culture but at the same time saying that it would be a problem if would be more effective than a statutory duty. However, near misses were not included. I understand that there I agree with Action against Medical Accidents, which is a general agreement that, although it might the norm also briefed me for the debate. It said that perhaps the for near misses to be reported to the patient, there MPS is missing the point: it is not a question of a duty would be discretion in cases in which reporting a near of candour or a change in culture, as it is perfectly miss might cause unnecessary harm. There is recognition possible to have both. Indeed, the duty of candour is that the near miss issue needs to be addressed carefully. one way of supporting and underpinning a change of One important fact is that, whether it is a duty or a culture so that health care organisations are always requirement, it must apply to all health care organisations. open and honest with patients when things go wrong. If there was one thing in the coalition agreement that The MPS says that it has been advocating that change was slightly remiss, it was the fact that it referred only to in culture, and it is true that a number of organisations hospitals, but there is a wider health body that we need have been advocating it for the past 50 years or so, but to include. I am sure that the Minister will clarify in her the desired change has not happened. I am not sure how response that the duty of candour, or the requirement, much longer one can wait for it. would need to apply not only to the patient but, sadly, if There is an issue about guidance and about how the patient has died as a result of the accident, more seriously organisations take guidance when they are widely to include family members. It should not be statutorily required to do other things. There is always a strictly restricted to the person who had the misfortune risk that guidance gets left aside while organisations of suffering the accident. focus on statutory duties. As the MPS said, it is correct that there is a professional duty for doctors and nurses Dr Pugh: My hon. Friend mentions hospitals, but to be open with patients in the event of a mistake, but does he not accept that there are severe diagnostic there is a wider issue about there being no statutory failures at primary care level? Failures to refer can duty on all health care organisations to promote and seriously imperil life, so they, too, need to be encompassed support that practice in their organisations. As my hon. in the duty of candour. 277WH Candour in Health Care1 DECEMBER 2010 Candour in Health Care 278WH

Tom Brake: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and demonstrable errors in organisations, but nobody and I entirely agree. A duty of candour must not be finds out about them until it is too late. Errors remain restricted simply to hospitals, because, as he rightly uncorrected, and poor performance is undeterred or, in says, GPs in primary care and other health care providers some cases, it worsens. regrettably also make mistakes. A duty would need to That is where the duty of candour fits in, because it encompass more than simply hospitals, as was initially will, on a voluntary or simply a request basis, lessen the proposed in the coalition agreement. problems. There is an enormous amount of evidence I entirely support the points that my hon. Friend the not only that patients want the NHS to be candid with Member for Poole made in opening the debate. There is them, but that the NHS finds it hard to be candid. The strong, overwhelming evidence in support of a duty of Department of Health itself spoke of a culture of candour. Guidance has not done the job, and a duty denial in the NHS—denial about error and, more seriously, of candour really would open up the system and make about negligence. sure that families and those who have suffered are, and No one believes that things will necessarily improve if know they are, entitled to receive information about an nothing is done. No willing provider entering the frame accident. That would make it much easier for them to will find it easier to be more candid than NHS organisations; arrive at closure. Regrettably, under the current system, in fact, they might have other motives for covering up. people must all too often use great energy and perseverance They might be answerable to others apart from members to extract with great difficulty information that they of the public, such as shareholders and the like. There is should be entitled to from the outset. therefore a genuine concern to get things right. Every Member of the House of Commons has probably 10 am come across a case, or several cases, where they feel that Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I thank the hon. things have gone badly wrong. In my intervention on Member for Poole (Mr Syms) for introducing this important my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington, and timely debate and for putting the Government’s I mentioned primary care. A young man in my dilemma so succinctly and accurately. I also pay tribute constituency—he was a relative of a friend of my to my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and daughter’s—went to his GP five times to complain of Wallington (Tom Brake), who has done as much as listlessness, a lack of energy and so on. He was brushed anybody in this place to raise the issues of a duty of off with suggestions that he needed more rest and less candour and patient rights. stress. He was told that he perhaps had glandular fever, but no blood test was done. Eventually, when one was I do not know whether anybody caught Ian Hislop’s done, it was discovered that he had late-stage leukaemia. programme about do-gooders on the BBC this week, My children attended his funeral. That clearly was a but in it he described the creation of the journal The failing. Lancet. It was set up by a young doctor, who, among other things, wished to expose some of the deficiencies I am also familiar with the ongoing case in my in the appalling surgical practices at that time. He was constituency of a TV soap star with a disabling condition greeted with wholesale acrimony from much of the that was brought on by receiving the wrong diagnosis medical profession and he was successfully sued. That and the wrong treatment. Similarly, I had the long-running shows that there is resistance in most businesses and case of a lorry driver with severe hypertension who was professions to acknowledging error. prescribed Viagra for other complaints, even though In an excellent book published some time ago, the Viagra increases blood pressure. The thought of a lorry sociologist Erving Goffman suggested that people in all driver being prescribed a drug that can imperil not only organisations—whether in health, business, teaching or him but members of the public is quite disturbing. policing—have a vested interest in supporting their A woman in my constituency was falsely diagnosed colleagues, playing as part of a team and working with cancer and treated for it until, on the spur of the together to minimise the reputational loss that their moment, she decided to request a check of the X-rays. organisation can suffer. He analysed in particular detail Staff then found that the X-rays that they had been how that can happen in health services right across the using, and which they had assumed were correct, were world, although it must be said that such things do not those of another person. That woman had spent a year always happen for bad reasons. People have duties of in absolutely harrowing circumstances. More disturbingly, loyalty to colleagues and a genuine concern for the we do not know whose X-rays were assigned to her. organisation to which they belong—for its reputation Presumably, that person was not given the treatment and, where admitting to errors might seriously imperil that this woman was wrongly given. it, for its very survival. Each of those cases leads to a prolonged complaints People inside organisations often recognise that mistakes procedure, involving the ombudsman and the Care will happen in their organisations. I have worked in the Quality Commission. In other cases, as other Members teaching profession all my life, and I have not always have indicated, there have been accusations that records been very overt about my colleagues’ deficiencies, even have been altered. The whole process is inordinately when that sometimes has involved people suffering from cumbersome and difficult. To some extent, it exists alcoholic intoxication when they should not. There are because there is no candour where candour would therefore circumstances in which people cover up. There probably be the solution. is also probably a belief in many organisations that the On top of that, there are the systemic failures—the internal resolution of problems is the best way to proceed. Mid Staffordshires, the Bristol heart babies and so on. However, there is a huge downside; confidence is To be fair, the Government recognise that this all comes eroded by simply taking such a path. Worse still, false with the territory of running the modern health service, confidence persists; in other words, there are palpable and they are, to some extent, endeavouring to deal with 279WH Candour in Health Care1 DECEMBER 2010 Candour in Health Care 280WH

[Dr John Pugh] Government reticence or hesitation. I therefore ask why the Government are hesitating when they are going the problems. Lots of things are going on, and we all ahead with so much else. A duty of candour is a want to applaud and support what the Government are disincentive to cover up, and it takes away the risk for doing on quite a few issues. We also applaud the previous whistleblowers. Government for having initiated some of these things. Statutory duties are important. I give a parallel example. Incident reporting has got better, which is wholly Local authority reporting officers, usually directors of desirable. Complaints are monitored, which is good and finance, have the job of identifying when a council is a move wholly in the right direction. There is more spending money in a reckless and improvident way. intensive recommending of procedures. The NHS is They have always been in that position, but prior to more of a learning body than it ever used to be; good there being a statutory duty to show the council the red practice is disseminated, while bad practice is identified card they were often bullied by the political establishment. and controlled. There is a general beefing-up across the As a result, they unwillingly had to consent to the piece of NHS guidance—particularly to the secondary deployment of council resources in ways that were care sector—about things not to do, things that will reckless. Without a statutory duty, the same sort of help and things that will avoid mishap. thing can happen in health institutions. People can be Right across the profession, there is a constant stressing put under a lot of pressure, and unless they can say, of professional ethics, as spelt out by the General “But I have the statutory duty to report this,” they will Medical Council or whoever. In the past few days, we find themselves in appreciable difficulties. have had the phenomenon of publicising outcomes, If we all believe in transparency—and we do at the with efforts by Dr Foster and, presumably, the Department moment—the duty of candour must be part of it. It of Health to see that outcomes are properly tracked. keeps patients informed of their genuine situation. It is entirely in line with what the Secretary of State says Mr Syms: It is interesting that it is sometimes non-NHS again and again—it is a good quote, which I paraphrase, organisations such as Dr Foster, rather than the NHS about no action being done to me without my consent. itself, that put their finger on the things that go wrong. That is the gist of what he says. Why, then, do we The NHS is a wonderful organisation generally, but hesitate, given the coalition agreement? The Liberal most of my constituents would be surprised that there is Democrats are clearly on board, and many Conservative not a duty of candour already. One reason why we have Members genuinely support it. Indeed, the coalition not got one is that we find out that we do not only when agreement is emphatic. we actually have a problem. I have the perception that somewhere in the background in the Department of Health the voice of Sir Humphrey Dr Pugh: Dr Foster is probably doing what the can be heard. Just as the Minister is about to initiate a Government will eventually get around to doing, and it statutory instrument on the subject, someone in the will presumably prompt the Government to do that civil service—I do not accuse the Permanent Secretary— more expeditiously. says, “That is a very brave decision, Minister.” The In some cases, private organisations may find it slightly Minister is thus persuaded that his decision may not be easier than the Department of Health to progress such as positive as appeared at first sight. matters, but a lot of internal consultations and procedures If one thinks about it, a candid admission of error or, will need to take place. Such organisations do not need worse still, of negligence is intrinsically damaging and to be answerable for how they treat the bodies within potentially expensive. I have seen stats suggesting that the NHS. A recent key development is the Government’s the potential damage to the NHS, if every person who willingness to ensure immunity for whistleblowers, and had a complaint pursued it legally to the nth degree, to encourage whistleblowing when appropriate. That is might be a bill of something like £10 billion. That is half a good thing, but there is evidence that whistleblowers of the internal savings that the NHS needs to make. still take genuine risks. For instance, they may not be However, the stats also show that litigation costs sacked or redeployed, but they may experience difficulties against the NHS are far less than that. The unnerving getting employment elsewhere in the health service. I feeling inside the Department of Health is that if it goes know of cases in which genuine whistleblowers have for a statutory duty—I believe that it should—that regretted the professional outcome that has resulted. picture might change dramatically, as the number of Such Government measures are self-evidently to the complaints that end up in successful and expensive good, but they are not the same, equivalent to or a litigation mushrooms. substitute for a duty of candour. Frankly, not all errors will be reported and not all complaints will get bottomed Tom Brake: Does my hon. Friend agree that, because out. As others have said, guidance is ignored, professional the information is now in the public domain, another ethics can be flexibly interpreted, and outcomes, whether consequence might be that the number of accidents will published by Dr Foster or others, often come too late or reduce because people will take the necessary action to are too general for individual cases. As I pointed out, ensure that such things do not happen? although whistleblowers may have temporary immunity, that may not last. The Department of Health spoke of Dr Pugh: One sincerely hopes so. I was a member a culture of denial; but if such a culture exists, it needs of the Committee that considered the NHS Redress Act to deal with it. 2006, which I believe is not yet in force. The sort of The argument against a statutory duty of candour—that, thinking suggested by my hon. Friend was behind that in a sense, the simple duty to be open with patients or Act, but the same forces that are delaying the duty relatives when requested is otiose or redundant—is not of candour are probably responsible for delaying its sustainable. It cannot be used as a genuine reason for implementation. I cannot recall there being much dissent 281WH Candour in Health Care1 DECEMBER 2010 Candour in Health Care 282WH among the parties as to the merits of that legislation. if appropriate, compensation. As hon. Members have The idea was that complaint costs would reduce if we mentioned, it is also vital that professionals and NHS had an open policy of admitting errors, patients organisations learn lessons from mistakes to improve surrendering none of their legal rights but simply being care for patients and, wherever possible, to save taxpayers’ given the apology and the explanation that they wanted. money by reducing the cost to the NHS from clinical As the hon. Member for Poole said, people who wish negligence claims. to pursue a complaint against the NHS if they believe During the past decade, important progress has been that their treatment has gone wrong are not looking for made on improving patient safety in the NHS. Last money. They are looking not only for an explanation year, the Health Committee’s report on patient safety and an apology; they are looking for an assurance that acknowledged that the previous Government became whatever happened to them or their relative will not one of the first in the world to make it a priority to happen to others. address patient safety across the whole health care Prior to the NHS Redress Act 2006, we looked hard system. A unified system for reporting incidents and at the costs of litigation in the NHS. Yes, it cost the learning from them was introduced, and it was centred NHS a lot of money; and, yes, something could have on the national reporting and learning system and the been done to reduce it. The really depressing thing, National Patient Safety Agency. The creation of this however, was that the bulk of the money went into the system was, in a large part, down to the pioneering lawyers’ pockets on either side. The NHS is not about work of Sir Liam Donaldson, and I should like to pay helping to boost lawyers’ profits. tribute to him for his work on this vital issue. The 2006 Act seemed to offer an alternative to litigation, Since the establishment of the data reporting system, which everyone would support, but the nagging fear in the number of reported incidents has increased significantly, the Department of Health was that it would become which is a good thing. At the last count, more than a platform for litigation—that if someone admitted a 3 million incidents had been reported, ranging from fault it might be a sound basis for taking legal action. very minor incidents to the more serious ones. The Are those fears well grounded? I believe that we do not NPSA has worked hard to improve patient safety, both precisely know, but we all have our own feelings on the nationally and within individual NHS trusts. I personally subject. People cite the Michigan case in the United experienced such work when I was director of the States, where they went outright for a duty of candour, Ambulance Service Network at the NHS Confederation. and litigation costs to the health service have declined. We set up a programme of work, with patient safety The duty of candour is not something that can be leads in ambulance service trusts, front-line paramedics, piloted, and once it has been done one cannot withdraw PCT commissioners of ambulance services and the it. To go ahead with it is almost an act of faith. I am NPSA to identify the particular areas of care where very keen on the concept of evidence-led policy, but I mistakes were being made—it is often in the handover see evidence-led policy debates taking place in the period—and to share best practice to prevent such Department of Health. If we go ahead with a statutory mistakes. duty of candour—and I firmly believe that we should—it I question some of the comments that have been will be a statement about what sort of NHS we want. made this morning about managers wanting to cover up I conclude by quoting Sir Liam Donaldson, the former problems. In my experience, both managers and chief medical officer for England. He said, professionals have difficulties in blowing the whistle on “To err is human, to cover up is unforgivable”. their colleagues. I just want to put it on the record that Regardless of the risks, I doubt whether the Government the ones that I have worked with have wanted to be want to do what is unforgivable. open and to learn the lessons. My experience has shown me that the NHS needs to 10.19 am do more to improve patient safety. As identified by the (Leicester West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to Health Committee’s report and Ara Darzi’s next stage serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. Every 36 review, there is still huge under-reporting across the hours, NHS services are used by some 1 million people, system, because, as hon. Members have said, there is the vast majority of whom receive safe and effective too often a “blame culture” in the NHS. care. None the less, as in every other health care system I agree with the hon. Member for Carshalton and in the world, not all care in the NHS is as safe as it could Wallington (Tom Brake) that this is not just an issue be, and too many patients are harmed by it, sometimes about hospitals. Primary care, which accounts for 95% seriously and even fatally. of patient contacts with the NHS, accounts for only Modern health services are delivered in a highly 0.25% of reported incidents. Although substantial progress complex, often pressurised, environment, and involve has been made, patient safety is still not always a top the care of many vulnerable and seriously ill patients. priority for NHS boards. Most importantly, patients More than any other environment in which risks occur, still too often feel that the NHS is not genuinely open health care is reliant on people taking difficult decisions and honest with them when a mistake is made. that rely on judgments that are not always straightforward In 2005, the National Audit Office’s 2005 report, “A or clear cut. In such circumstances, things can and do safer place for patients” found that only 25% of NHS go wrong. Sometimes, as I know from my own experience, trusts routinely inform patients when an incident has the consequences can be very serious for the patient, taken place, and an astonishing 6% admit to never their family and their carers. informing patients. Like other hon. Members, I have Patients and their families have a right to know if seen such practice in my own constituency. Patients feel something has gone wrong, to get an explanation of that mistakes are not promptly or openly admitted to what has happened and to receive an apology and, and they have to battle the system to—in the words of 283WH Candour in Health Care1 DECEMBER 2010 Candour in Health Care 284WH

[Liz Kendall] was drawn up by Sir Liam Donaldson in 2000. Its key recommendation was that the NHS must be open and the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms)—“get at the honest and learn from its experiences. To do that, the truth”, which, so often, is the start of the healing NHS must become, as the report’s title suggests, “An process. organisation with a memory”. But the Government Last week, I went to a meeting at the University plan to abolish many of the very organisations that Hospitals Leicester NHS Trust with two of my constituents, have worked hard to build this memory and understanding Mr and Mrs Harkisan-Hall, who lost their son in the of how to improve patient safety. hospital’s neo-natal unit. It was only at the coroner’s If the NHS has to make efficiency savings worth inquiry that they found out that the two qualified some £20 billion, there will inevitably be job losses and nurses on the unit were both on a break at the same posts frozen, some of which could include those staff time, leaving a nursery nurse in charge of very vulnerable who have worked hard to learn lessons from the mistakes children. They felt that they had to battle to get that that have been made in the NHS. How will the Minister information, and they still have not seen the full reports ensure that the NHS retains its “memory” on patient of what the staff said. Like them, I believe that that is safety when PCTs and strategic health authorities are unacceptable. being abolished, new GP consortiums are being established, community services are being transferred to different Mr Syms: The hon. Lady makes a good point. One providers and staff posts are being frozen and reduced? point that I meant to make was that if people do not In particular, what steps has she taken to ensure that hear what has happened, coroners can find it difficult to managers and front-line staff who have knowledge and determine how someone has died. If people are not expertise in patient safety are retained in the NHS at a honest about what has happened to a particular individual, time when the Government want to cut management coroners do not have the full information. costs by 45% and make efficiency savings of £20 billion? Finally, I want to talk about the duty of candour. As Liz Kendall: In this particular case, interviews were hon. Members have said, the introduction of a statutory conducted with the two qualified nurses. The trust did duty of candour was first recommended by Sir Liam not read both transcripts together and did not see that Donaldson in his 2003 report, “Making Amends”. I both nurses were on a break at the same time. People agree with hon. Members that there is a strong case to are astonished that such simple things happen, and it is look again at this issue, as a Health Committee report vital that we learn from this process. recommended in 2009. Before I go on to talk about the duty of candour, I I think that it was the hon. Member for Carshalton want to discuss two concerns about the Government’s and Wallington who said that too often the debate is policy in relation to patient safety. It is important that split between those who want a statutory duty of candour hon. Members do not look just at the duty of candour and those who think the NHS should instead focus on in isolation from what is going on in the rest of the creating a culture of candour. Of course, changing the NHS, including on patient safety. My first concern is practice of individual staff and organisations does not the Department of Health’s decision to abolish the require legislation, but I think that we can see from National Patient Safety Agency and to move responsibility existing laws, such as those that helped to reduce drink- for this issue to the new national NHS Commissioning driving, those that introduced the smoking ban and Board. There are real concerns about whether the others, that legislation often plays a vital role in changing board will have the necessary skills, experience and time culture and behaviour. to focus on such a vital issue when it will also be Some professional bodies are concerned that a duty responsible for setting NHS outcomes, assessing whether of candour would make it less likely that incidents GP consortiums are delivering on those outcomes, would be reported. I am not convinced that that would commissioning a whole range of specialist services and be the case, particularly if the duty is combined with an: managing contracts for all primary medical services. That is a huge agenda for any board, even without “exemption from disciplinary action for those reporting adverse adding responsibility for patient safety. events or medical errors—except where there is a criminal offence or where it would not be safe for the professional to continue to Will the Minister tell us what resources and how treat patients”. many staff from the NPSA will be transferred to the That was the recommendation of Sir Liam Donaldson NHS Commissioning Board? Which NPSA activities back in 2003. will the board take on? For example, will NPSA continue to publish patient safety alerts and bulletins and other Others question whether a statutory duty could be guidance to identify key problems and help spread best imposed when it might be difficult to specify or enforce practice? Will it also run workshops with leads for sanctions. That concern has not prevented other parts patient safety in individual providers, such as those I of the world from introducing legal duties, including was involved with in the Ambulance Service Network? some US states, Sweden, France and Denmark. It is Will the national Patient Safety First Campaign, which also worth noting that the Equality Act 2010, which was launched last year, and the annual patient safety was introduced by the last Government, imposes a week, which was held early this month, have the staff number of legal duties on public bodies to consider the and resources to continue? impact of their policies and decisions on different groups, My second concern relates to the Government’s without specifying what the sanctions will be if those reorganisation of the NHS and fact that the service duties are not complied with. needs to make efficiency savings worth some £20 billion The final argument against a statutory duty of candour over the next three years, as the NHS chief executive is that patients might end up trusting professionals less, said. The first report on adverse incidents in the NHS because they have to report a mistake rather than 285WH Candour in Health Care1 DECEMBER 2010 Candour in Health Care 286WH because they want to. I think that the far greater risk for often enough, and it proposed exempting those who doctor-patient trust is the perception, and too often the report adverse events or medical errors from disciplinary reality, that professionals do not tell patients when action, unless there are serious extenuating circumstances. things go wrong. I know that if a mistake was made in It is a key belief of the coalition, and I would hope all my own care, or in the care of one of my family or Members of the House, that the focus should be on the friends, I would want to know—and indeed I believe performance of the organisation rather than on penalising that I have the right to know. individuals who bring matters of concern out into the To conclude, I think that the NHS has made important open. The hon. Member for Southport (Dr Pugh) has progress on improving patient safety and it has started already mentioned whistleblowing. I think that the point to try to change its culture, to become more open and is that this debate is not necessarily about the protection honest. However, the evidence shows and hon. Members of whistleblowers or a right to whistleblow; it is perhaps have clearly demonstrated in this debate that the NHS is about a duty to whistleblow. still not as open as it should be, not only with its own It is important to note the good work that is currently staff, but—crucially—with patients. The abolition of being done to promote candour. The previous Government the NPSA, the huge reorganisation that the NHS is should be congratulated for providing staff with advice about to undergo and the future cuts in numbers of and support to help them to communicate with patients, staff actually make a stronger case for having a duty of their families and carers following harmful incidents. candour in place. The Health Act 2009 requires all NHS organisations to The White Paper, “Liberating the NHS”, says that be aware of the NHS constitution, which places a duty the Government will: on NHS staff to acknowledge mistakes, apologise for “require hospitals to be open about mistakes and always tell the them, explain what happened and put things right. The patient when something has gone wrong”. professional codes of practice for doctors and nurses It also says that that requirement will be implemented contain a similar duty. by summer 2011. So I just want to ask the Minister to As somebody who trained as a nurse and worked in clarify if that means that the Government are proposing the NHS for 25 years, I think that professional codes of a statutory duty of candour? Also, will she now agree to practice and professional standards are not talked about bring together patient groups, professional bodies, experts often enough. We look for someone to blame: we look on the duty of candour in this country and abroad, as for the organisation to blame; we look for the board to well as those who represent NHS trusts—such as the blame, and we look for the chief executive to blame. NHS Confederation—to discuss how we can all best What we do not talk about is individual professional move forward on this vital issue? standards and I feel particularly strongly that we need to do everything that we can to raise those standards 10.34 am right up. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health The National Patient Safety Agency has been running (Anne Milton): Thank you very much, Mr Gray. It is a its own campaign to promote candour in the NHS, as pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) said. time. I also want to congratulate my hon. Friend the That campaign, entitled “Being Open”, is a long-term Member for Poole (Mr Syms) on securing this debate. process rather than a short-term push. It encourages As Chairman of the Regulatory Reform Committee, he the provision of verbal and written apologies to patients, is no doubt acutely aware of some of the issues that their families and carers; it promotes continual exist around regulation, not least those that exist around communication with those involved in incidents, and it the duty of candour. His humility and recognition of requires thorough record-keeping of all “Being Open” the impossible task that we face here today—to truly discussions and documents. reflect the pain and suffering of those who have suffered However, we all know that still more needs to be as a result of medical harm—does him considerable done, as hon. Members have said and as I know myself credit. from my own constituency casework; I have a number We take candour and openness in the NHS extremely of people who have continually fought to try to get the seriously. Everybody does, because it is a vital issue. As truth about what happened to their relatives. The recent anyone who has ever been treated knows, a health care White Paper, “Liberating the NHS”, states that system is not just about how quickly someone is seen or “we will require hospitals to be open about mistakes, and always how quickly their stitches come out; it is also about tell patients if something has gone wrong”. trust. Trust is fundamental—between patients, the patient’s It is quite simple: we expect the NHS to admit to errors; family and health care professionals—and we must do apologise to those affected, and ensure that lessons are everything we can to ensure that that trust is upheld. learned to prevent errors from being repeated. As the hon. Gentleman may be aware, one of the In one year, the NPSA receives notification of more early references to a statutory “duty of candour” was than one million incidents. Most of those incidents included in “Making Amends”, a 2003 report, which I result in no harm and we welcome the high level of know hon. Members have referred to. It was a consultation reporting. However, the incidents that result in harm paper from the then chief medical officer, Liam Donaldson, obviously cause distress and anguish for the patients and it set out proposals for reforming the approach to and families involved. In those cases, it is even more clinical negligence in the NHS, suggesting important that the lessons are learned and that organisations “a duty of candour requiring clinicians and health service managers are open with those who have been affected. to inform patients about actions which have resulted in harm”. The paper also proposed to foster an environment of Dr Pugh: I want to ask about the future of the NPSA. openness and honesty among all NHS staff; it encouraged If it is going to be brought within the national “integrity”, which is a word that we perhaps do not use commissioning body, will a Chinese wall be established 287WH Candour in Health Care1 DECEMBER 2010 Candour in Health Care 288WH

[Dr Pugh] want to create new legislation only when absolutely necessary, although when necessary, it should be done. between the NPSA and the other operations of that We would need to ensure that any new legislation or body? It crosses my mind that risks can allegedly be new approach was not counter-productive. We want to increased or decreased by commissioning decisions make it easier for staff to come forward; we do not want themselves. new legislation to have unintended consequences. Under those circumstances, the NPSA has got to be The third option involves incorporating an openness free to impute itself, as it were, if the national commissioning requirement into the new NHS contractual, performance body is going to be part and parcel of the same organisation. and commissioning processes, to which the hon. Members So, can the Minister assure me that there will be no for Leicester West and for Southport referred. It certainly conflict of interest when the NPSA is placed within the appears possible to pursue openness through the new national commissioning body, which may itself—through commissioning arrangements. For instance, it could be its commissioning procedures—be one of the risk factors? written into standard NHS commissioning board requirements that providers commit to being open. The Anne Milton: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. hon. Member for Leicester West asked whether the That is terribly important. It is not only important to NHS commissioning board would have time to take a have Chinese walls and be seen to be separate; it is role on patient safety. In many ways, safety underpins important to be separate. I will come to that point in all commissioning decisions. Any decision on any service detail in a minute. commissioned should have safety wrapped around it. That is fundamental. Measuring openness is not as straightforward as measuring reporting. We welcome high levels of reporting, As with any complex matter, each of the options has as they are an indicator of an open and supportive its pros and cons. It is imperative that a decision on the culture of patient safety, but there are still reasons why issue is not rushed. I reassure the hon. Lady that people within the NHS and organisations shy away campaigners and organisations have good access to from openness. Without a doubt, professionals who officials within the Department, and I am sure that all strive for excellence are reluctant to admit errors. The their views will have been taken into account when a higher up the tree one is, the harder it is to say, “I’ve decision is made, because we are aware of the importance made a mistake.” All of us face that issue in our of getting it right. It is terrible to think that the first professional lives. duty of the NHS is to do no harm. Safety wraps around everything that we do. People may have unfounded concerns about possible The hon. Lady also mentioned the decision to abolish admissions of liability, even though apologising when strategic health authorities. I understand that SHAs are something has gone wrong is not in any way an admission the performance managers of trusts, yet that did not of liability. The fine line between the two sometimes help in Staffordshire. In many ways, bringing commissioning prevents people from saying what relatives want to hear: decisions closer to the patient within general practice “I am so sorry this happened.” That is not necessarily will mean that decisions about care and its consequences saying, “I have made a mistake.” It is such a shame rest where they should. when professionals resort to a defensive stance, often encouraged by myths about where liability lies. Also, at times, they may fear reprisal, blame and even bullying. Liz Kendall: The Minister raises the important issue of Stafford and the lessons to be learned there, and says We are considering options for introducing a requirement that the SHA did not take action. Obviously, we will for openness and will make a decision in due course. wait for the outcome of inquiry, but as The hon. Member for Southport felt that we were responsibility will move to GP commissioning consortiums, hesitating, and was concerned about possible evidence can she tell us whether any of the GPs in the area raised of Sir Humphreys in the Department. We are considering, concerns about Stafford, or whether any of them have not hesitating. It is important to get it right. Members submitted evidence to the inquiry? I am not aware that have discussed the three options, but I will run through they have. them quickly and mention a few relevant issues. The first option is using what is in the existing Care Anne Milton: I did not point a finger at the SHA; I Quality Commission registration requirement regulations. pointed out that SHAs were performance managers. It is already mandatory for NHS trusts to report all Where performance fails, one must ask oneself what serious patient safety incidents. We could also require was happening in the management of that performance organisations to demonstrate that they have met the that it could fail so abysmally. The hon. Lady must not openness requirement, which would not require new forget that the GP consortiums will involve a much legislation. It makes sense to use existing means to wider range of professionals in commissioning decisions detect and investigate trusts that are not as open as they than just GPs, including a lot of people involved in care. should be. The counterargument is that that approach is They will not necessarily consist only of NHS professionals. not specific enough, and that the wording of the guidance Voluntary bodies and other organisations that provide would need to be made more explicit. We have seen care will also have input. many cases in which guidance has failed. The sad truth is that when things go wrong, relatives The second option involves introducing a new legal, want to know what happened, as my hon. Friend the statutory duty of openness explicit within the CQC Member for Poole pointed out, but they do not always regulations. That would send a clear signal about the find out. They want the truth and honesty, but we often importance of openness and provide patients and see precisely the opposite. Doors close, the shutters go campaigners with a single clear duty that they could use down and NHS organisations resort to a defensive to demand full disclosure. However, the Government stance, sometimes quite aggressively. My hon. Friend 289WH Candour in Health Care1 DECEMBER 2010 Candour in Health Care 290WH mentioned his constituents the Byes and the Powells, Anne Milton: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention who have campaigned endlessly for the truth and continue and am sure that the report of this debate will aid to campaign. I pay tribute to all the people, some of people in making their decisions on the matter. whom we do not know about, who use their own tragic On the point raised by the hon. Member for Carshalton circumstances to ensure that the same thing does not and Wallington on legal aid, I understand that the happen to others. Their efforts should never be Ministry of Justice proposal on restructuring and refocusing underestimated. the scope of legal aid is currently out for consultation. There will still be an exceptional funding route for those Tom Brake: The Minister said that the NHS sometimes not eligible for legal aid, but he might want to raise that adopts an aggressive stance. I remind her of my question specific point with the MOJ because it is important. to her about the possible impact of withdrawing legal The hon. Member for Southport rightly picked up on aid in clinical negligence cases. Often, families use such the fact that we included in the White Paper the principle cases as a way of trying to secure an apology because of “No decision should about me, without me”, and one has not been forthcoming. If that option is not that probably needs to be extended to situation where available to them, it reinforces the need for a duty of harm happens. candour. A few Members mentioned international precedents, Anne Milton: The hon. Gentleman pre-empts me by a but we must be slightly careful, because what happens second; I was about to come to legal aid. My experience abroad cannot necessarily be transported to this country. is that even with legal aid, the courts are rarely an Those precedents tell us that there can be problems in option for most people. Allowing discretion on the adopting a statutory duty of candour. It can be difficult reporting of near misses would, I fear, open another to measure success and, therefore, find any evidence of minefield beyond which people could hide, as he also where success or failure has occurred. We must also be mentioned. mindful of the differing health care and legislative I have certainly brokered meetings between NHS environments that exist around the world when looking organisations and my constituents to try to bring them at international examples. In Pennsylvania, for example, together and make the NHS organisations stop feeling we have been told that a complicated set of requirements so defensive. I have been an advocate for people in my makes enforcing its version of a statutory duty particularly constituency just so they could hear what happened. I problematic. should think that many hon. Members rely on personal In conclusion, there are complex issues at play in relationships, particularly within hospital trusts, for relation to a statutory duty of candour, and views are such purposes. Maybe they know a supportive medical held on both sides of the argument for and against such director to whom they can say, “Look, this family, this a duty. What we can say, as has been documented in the couple or these relatives just want to know what happened; White Paper, is that we are absolutely set on achieving this isn’t going to go anywhere.” That is a leap of faith. that change in culture to achieve openness and candour The NHS organisation has to say, “Fair enough”. When in the NHS and all organisations that provide care. We that happens, closure can follow. are exploring those complex issues carefully. The culture The hon. Member for Southport rightly pointed out of secrecy and denial is a disease that needs to be cured, that accidents occur across the NHS and mentioned, in but to do so we need to understand and treat its causes particular, the failure to diagnose in general practice. at their source, rather than simply treating the symptoms That is an ongoing, rumbling issue that I hear about not with an ineffective plaster. only as a constituency MP, but as a Minister. I thank As my hon. Friend the Member for Poole stated, the him for recognising that the solution to getting to a start of the healing process is about learning the truth. situation where we have effective measures in place to The Government will need to decide how we can provide ensure candour is a dilemma. It is not an easy decision. the environment, with or without legislation, in which He is also right to point out that the NHS is not alone in the truth can come out immediately—in a timely fashion— protecting itself. My goodness me, we know a lot of and openly. We need inspirational leadership and highly professions that close their doors when one of their developed management skills in our NHS leaders to members is under attack—the legal profession is one. create that change in culture to create an open atmosphere People just want the truth, but sadly the shutters go among staff, not the closed culture that we have seen. down and the doors close, and closure cannot be achieved. We need a culture that replaces the fear of the consequences of openness with the courage to recognise that openness, Mr Syms: I am pleased with the way the Minister is honesty and truth will, ultimately, not only give families responding to the debate and recognise that a statutory what they need to heal their wounds and achieve closure, duty of candour is one of a range of measures that the but allow staff to learn from their mistakes, raise their Government are considering. However, if they decide standards and raise the bar on their professional standards. not to take that route initially, it is important that they do not rule it out, because the culture change that is The Government will consider all that when making needed might not come about as a result of what they the decision, but Members should rest assured that are doing, but we will still need to get there at some everything that has been said today and all the effort to point. I still think that a statutory duty of candour highlight the issue will be taken in account to ensure would be the biggest and most successful leap towards that we get the right system in place to give people what that goal—the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington works. made a good point on that—but even if the Government choose not to go there, they should not rule it out, because I think that ultimately that is where we will 10.55 am end up. Sitting suspended. 291WH 1 DECEMBER 2010 PACE (Stop and Search) 292WH

PACE (Stop and Search) time by reducing stop-and- search forms. Those are welcome savings in police time, to enable our police to spend more time in their jobs on the beat, and in 11 am helping citizens by combating crime. Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): I appreciate the However, against a backdrop of considerable community opportunity to have this debate. The shorthand definition concerns, and severely disproportionate impacts, perhaps of the code of practice that I wish to consider is “stop the Minister could assist with the answer to some questions. and search”, but it also includes “stop and account”. The first is about the removal of the requirement to The draft guidelines recently issued by the Government record stop and account. As I have said, that represents state: 2 million actions by the police each year, so it is certainly “The primary purpose of stop and search powers is to enable clear that removing the requirement to record stop and officers to allay or confirm suspicions about individuals without account will save considerable police time. However, as exercising their power of arrest.” we have not yet ended disproportionality, is the Minister We would all recognise that that is an important part concerned that we would lose an important source of of policing powers, but some issues arise from it and I information on fairness? have some questions to which I should appreciate a I understand that it would be possible for chief constables response from the Minister. My interest arises partly to re-institute stop-and-account searches if local concerns from my membership of the all-party parliamentary were expressed. That is a very welcome part of the group on race and community and from conversations proposals, but how will the local pressure be voiced? that I have had with the Runnymede Trust and the What would constitute a valid local concern and how StopWatch coalition, both of which have alerted me to would it be differentiated from concerns thought to be issues of the context in which the proposed changes and invalid? guidelines are being made. The most significant issue is I would also appreciate the Minister’s views on the disproportionality between people of different ethnic decision by Suffolk police to de-fund the stop-and-search origins. reference group. What message does that send to people A black person is at least six times as likely as a white who have concerns about disproportionality and the person to be stopped and searched by the police. It is reliance on the raising of concerns by local voices? On twice as likely to happen to an Asian. That is grossly the same point, what role does the Minister see for the disproportionate and those ratios have remained stubbornly Equality and Human Rights Commission? Are steps constant in the past five years. The report “Stop and such as the enforcement action warning that it issued think”, which was produced earlier this year by the this week to Thames Valley police and other forces seen Equality and Human Rights Commission, included as part of the community response to disproportionality research findings that in stop and account and stop and search? “black and ethnic minority youths were over-represented in the The Government have—and I welcome this—removed criminal justice system. This over-representation started at the point of entry into the system, and largely continued as young parts of the justification for section 60 stop and search suspects and defendants passed through it.” on the grounds of race. The National Black Police Association said the original draft proposal If the very first part of a person’s interaction with the criminal justice system is disproportionate, there may “opens the door to racial targeting that could be based on gossip, be consequential effects at other stages in that system. malice and outright racial prejudice.” The black population of England and Wales is Perhaps I might use this opportunity to thank the approximately 2.6%, but black people represent 14.8% Minister for, and congratulate him on, the changes, and of incidents of stop and search, 7.6% of arrests and for his statement: 14.4% of the prison population. I think that anyone “Previous guidance did not place any restrictions on use but would find those statistics chilling. It is a rare thing for now it will make clear than an individual characteristic such as me to say I agree with Bernie Grant, the former Member ethnicity should never be the sole basis for any search.” of Parliament for Tottenham, but in 1997 he said: That shows the direction of travel of the Government. “Nothing has been more damaging to the relationship between They will look at areas where there is disproportionality the police and the black community than the ill judged use of stop and seek to eliminate that. They will look at areas where and search powers. For young black men in particular, the humiliating ethnicity is misused in policing, and ensure that that no experience of being repeatedly stopped and searched is a fact of longer happens. I would welcome the Minister’s comments life”. on the background to the draft guidelines and the Of course society has moved on in 13 years, but, as the change. statistics have shown, disproportionality is still significant. Section 60 stop and search is a very significant power Stop and search is not a power that is used occasionally. that we provide to the police. It enables the police to Last year, there were more than 2 million instances of stop and search an individual where there are no grounds stop and account by police and more than 1 million of for suspicion of the particular individual, in a designated stop and search. That amounts to more than 10,000 a area, for a period of 24 hours. Nationally the black day, which is not only disproportionate, but shows population of the country, as I said earlier, is about widespread and pervasive use in our society. 2.6%, but they represent 32% of stops and searches I accept—and this is probably much of the intent under section 60. That means that under the police behind Government moves—that the recording of power to stop and search with no grounds for suspicion information accounts for considerable police time. It is of the individual concerned, a black person is 26 times estimated by the Daily Mail that the proposed changes more likely than a white person to be stopped. That is a will save 450,000 hours of police time by eliminating the shocking statistic and everyone, including members of stop-and-account element and 350,000 hours of police the police force, will want that ratio to be changed. 293WH PACE (Stop and Search)1 DECEMBER 2010 PACE (Stop and Search) 294WH

The usage of this blanket power, which does not rely searches—3 million in total—do not result in an arrest. on individual assessment or suspicion, has grown over Three million is a widespread trawl through our the past few years. In 2004-05, there were 45,600 incidences communities, and that can have counter-productive effects of section 60 stop and search being used. Just three by separating the police from the communities that they years later, in 2008-09, the figure had more than trebled serve. to 149,955. This is a specialised, exceptional power akin Over the past few years, since the quote from Mr Grant, to those available under section 44 of the Terrorism Act progress has been made. Our police have done an 2000. Does the Minister believe that there should be enormously good job of reaching out to communities. specialist oversight of the authorisations that chief We need to do more of that, but stop and search is not constables are using to invoke this power? I am not necessarily one of the main ways to do it. We need look aware of any areas where there is currently national only at the effectiveness of one of the important powers oversight over particular actions by chief constables, in section 60 in tackling knife crime. A review of statistics but given that the use of these authorisations is growing from 11 London boroughs with a high incidence of and disproportionate, and given that these very powerful knife crime showed a broad correlation between the measures are targeted on an area, not an individual, I incidence of knife crime and the number of stops and would greatly appreciate it if the Minister could tell us searches—when there are a large number of knife crimes, what oversight, if any, there could be over them. the police carry out more stops and searches. However, Other issues are related to the information collected there is no correlation between the number of stops and on the stop-and-search form. Again, I think that the searches and a reduction in knife crime. proposals are being introduced with the good intention Let me give an example. In 2008-09, Tower Hamlets of reducing the amount of police time that is spent on and Islington both experienced approximately 305 knife form filling. The Minister may, in an offhanded way, crimes. The police in Tower Hamlets responded with a have called it box ticking, but I am sure that he accepts stop-and–search rate that was two and a half times that that some of this information is valuable. I want to alert of Islington. Although knife crime fell by 11% in Tower him, therefore, to some reasons why some of the information Hamlets, it fell by nearly 25% in Islington where such a that will be lost from these forms might be valuable, and large number of stops and searches were not carried he might want to consider how such concerns could be out. addressed. People in those communities want knife crime dealt The first piece of information that will be lost from with. However, stop and search does not appear to be a the stop-and-search form is the name of the person who tool that helps and we must look at alternatives. In his has been stopped and searched. How will it be possible response, perhaps the Minister will talk about initiatives to identify and measure repeat stops and searches that other than stop and search that can be used to reduce might amount to harassment? If an individual is stopped the disproportionality of the statistics on ethnicity in and searched routinely by the police, that will be evident our criminal justice system. from the current form because the individual’s name For example, the practice-oriented package initiative will have been collected, but it will not be evident under that was introduced in Stoke-on-Trent reduced the the proposed change. How might we deal with concerns disproportionality ratio from six times the national about harassment if that information is lost? average to just 1.5 times that average. In Cleveland, the Secondly, as a result of the targeting of individuals in number of stop and searches was reduced by 80%. That a community, there might be community concerns. How reduced the disproportionality in stop and search and will the community have the information that it needs also reduced the crime rate. Will the Minister also to identify and measure whether particular individuals endorse police innovations in tackling drugs without are being targeted? There is, therefore, not only the the use of stop and search, which has been done to individual concern; there will also be a community good intent? concern if four or five individuals are routinely stopped I understand, appreciate and support the Government’s and searched and people feel that their community is efforts to reduce the waste of police time spent collecting being unfairly targeted. information that is not helpful in tackling crime. I The second piece of information that will be lost is believe and understand that the Minister shares my whether injury or damage was caused as a result of the concerns about disproportionality and wishes to ensure search. If that information is not collected, my concern that police powers are used correctly. I welcome the is that we might leave the police open to allegations that change to the draft guidelines that have stopped ethnic some injury or damage was caused. How will it be profiling from being written into our legislation. That possible to identify and account for incidents of the move is welcome, but considerations and concerns remain misuse of force? The corollary of that is the issue of about the continuation of stop and account without the how the police will be guaranteed protection against recording of information, and about the reduction of allegations that an injury did occur. information in the stop-and-search forms. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. The third piece of information that will be lost relates to whether anything was found as a consequence of the search. One of the concerns about the use of stop and 11.17 am search relates to how effective it is in tackling crime. The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick With so few stops and searches resulting in an arrest, Herbert): First, may I congratulate my hon. Friend the how will we know how effective stop and search is likely Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) on securing the to be if we have no information about whether anything debate and on raising the issues in such a forceful way? is found as a consequence of a search? Overall, stops Such matters continue to generate a significant amount and searches have resulted in an arrest rate of about of public interest and highlight some of the concerns 10% to 13%, which means that nine out of 10 stops and about front-line policing that we are keen to address. 295WH PACE (Stop and Search)1 DECEMBER 2010 PACE (Stop and Search) 296WH

[Nick Herbert] The Government understand that stop and search is a very different tool and is far more intrusive. It is right We are keen to ensure that officers strike the right that its monitoring and use should continue, both nationally balance between necessary bureaucracy for the sake of and at a local level. We are reducing the number of accountability—which is important—and irrelevant form pieces of data to be completed on a stop-and-search filling that wastes the time of the police and the public, record from 12 to seven, saving more than 300,000 and impacts unduly on citizens going about their business hours of officers’ time every year as well as reducing the by asking unnecessary questions. duration of these encounters for those stopped and It is important to understand how policing, and the searched. bureaucracy that surrounds it, impacts on community My hon. Friend expressed concern about some of the relations. Procedures such as stop and account and stop pieces of data that will be removed. However, key and search are most effective when local communities information about each encounter will still be recorded, understand them and support their use. There is a including the self-defined ethnicity of the person stopped, difference between stop and account and stop and which is obviously the critical information, and we search, and we must be mindful of ensuring that the have made minor amendments to code A to encourage processes associated with them are not confused. Stop the further use of mobile technology to reduce even and account is where an individual is asked to account further the time taken to record each stop and search. for their presence, actions and so on, but they are not The 12 recording requirements used during a stop-and- searched. It can be one step on from the general search encounter will be reduced to seven: ethnicity, the conversations that officers have with members of the object of the search, the grounds for the search, the public every day. Stop and search clearly goes further identity of the officer carrying out the stop and search, than that. It is an intrusive procedure and therefore a the date, the time and the place. Such requirements do cause of more concern among local communities. not prevent police officers from recording information Many of the proposed changes to the Police and that they feel would be useful intelligence, but it is not Criminal Evidence Act 1984 code of practice A are necessary as a Government requirement for such necessary to reverse the increase in paperwork generated information to be held in a stop-and-search record. by the last Government. In our judgment, that paperwork Our amendments to the guidance on the use of hampers police operations and leads to encounters with section 44 stop-and-search powers follow the Home the public that are ineffective, bureaucratised and poorly Secretary’s announcement on 8 July, which curtailed the understood. We need officers on the street to record use of this power in the light of the judgment of the only information that is of value, and it may differ from European Court of Human Rights in the case of Gillan situation to situation and from force to force. I do not and Quinton v. United Kingdom. My hon. Friend also want to see in place measures that discourage proper raised issues around section 60 stop-and-search powers, interaction between police officers and members of the both in terms of the guidance supporting officers’ use public. of this power, and the disproportionality figures that Let me explain the rationale behind our stop-and-account have been reported in the press recently. proposals. The abolition of the national recording Let me assure my hon. Friend and all hon. Members requirement for stop and account will potentially free that there was never any intention on the part of the up around 450,000 hours of police time, allowing officers Government to encourage the use of ethnic profiling or to increase the quality—and shorten the duration—of unlawful discrimination in the use of this power—far these brief encounters, and enabling forces to be more from it. The original draft of the guidance contained responsive to the communities that they serve. wording that had been introduced in code A by the I share my hon. Friend’s concerns about the level of previous Government in 2003 in relation to the police’s disproportionality in the use of police powers. However, use of section 44 powers. The original draft explained when the statistics for stop and account are examined that all authorisations had to be supported by clear more closely, it appears that it is not used in a intelligence and that, on occasion, intelligence could disproportionate manner across England and Wales. It suggest a possible suspect description that included is also fair to say that there is less concern about the characteristics such as race, age, sex and so on. However, operation of stop and account than there is about stop it also stipulated that race should never be the sole and search. That is why we are removing fully the reason for stopping someone under section 60. national requirement for recording stops and accounts, The guidance was evidently not clear enough and was leaving local recording to a local decision where a local misconstrued. We therefore considered the responses to need is identified. the statutory consultation and have redrafted the relevant Individual police forces know their own communities paragraphs to include all protected characteristics under better than Whitehall. Increasingly, they will be answerable the Equality Act 2010. We have stated clearly that to their local communities, as we have set out today unlawful discrimination will not be tolerated. with the introduction of the Police Reform and Social I must, however, warn against judging the use of a Responsibility Bill. Those forces should know the extent key tool such as section 60 purely on a national statistic. to which the operation of stop and account is a matter The figures cited in the press about black people being of particular local concern. They are best placed to 26 times more likely than white people to be stopped analyse their own statistics and understand how they and searched under section 60 are potentially misleading use the tactic and how it impacts on ethnic minority if they are not examined a little more closely. In 2008-09, groups locally, and they should be held to account by 76% of all section 60 stops and searches were conducted their elected police and crime commissioners, with the by the Metropolitan Police Service in London. Therefore, scrutiny of new police and crime panels to ensure the to assess the use of that power against the national proper use of such procedures. population’s ethnicity breakdown is deceptive. We need 297WH PACE (Stop and Search)1 DECEMBER 2010 PACE (Stop and Search) 298WH to compare that 76% with the ethnicity of the population My hon. Friend the Member for Bedford referred to of London and the remaining 24% with the rest of the the role of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. country. When we do that, we find that the use is not so The commission has praised the “Next Steps” process disproportionate. developed by the National Policing Improvement Agency, The power is used to tackle specific issues relating to which is being used by the police in, for example, serious violence and, in particular, knife crime. The Merseyside and Dorset, as well as Lewisham in London. Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, It helps the police to understand the way in which they my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and use stop and search and how the population of an area (), who is responsible for crime and the apparent levels of disproportionality might in prevention, recently responded to a debate in this Chamber some circumstances not present a true picture. The on youth violence and was very clear about how we early feedback on “Next Steps” is positive, and we hope need to protect our communities against violent crimes. to be able to expand it to other areas shortly. The use of section 60 as one of the many tools that I have been impressed by the way in which my hon. the Metropolitan police use as part of their continuing Friend has raised these issues. Since the general election, action against knife crime receives significant support there has not been a great deal of debate in the House from communities in London. The Metropolitan police about these issues or the changes that we propose to have gone to great lengths since the start of Operation make. There may be debate in relation to the orders that Blunt 2—their programme of action against knife crime—to we have laid to change the PACE codes, but I would increase community engagement. An example of that is welcome the opportunity for further discussion with my the young Londoners engagement programme, which hon. Friend and other hon. Members. I would be happy explains why the powers are so important and the to convene a meeting with key representatives of the dangers of carrying knives. The Metropolitan police are police, including the deputy commissioner of the police in the process of reviewing their operational use of the in London if he would be willing, in order to talk about power, and all boroughs have been reminded that they their use of stop and search, why they believe that it is must be proportionate in their use of section 60. such an important tool in their fight against knife crime, why they believe that it has public consent and Neighbourhood policing—such a rare thing at the how they are alive to the important issues of time of the Macpherson inquiry in the late 1990s—is disproportionality that can be raised. now embedded throughout the country in such a way as to give the public far greater confidence in the way in In summary, stop and search is a vital tool. The which their police service operates. The Government challenge for the Government and the police is to are determined to do everything that they can to ensure ensure that the powers are used fairly and with the that neighbourhood policing is protected, despite the support of the community, and it is a challenge that I budgetary challenges that confront forces. We are also am confident we will meet. determined that the British tradition of policing by consent should flourish, and that can happen only if the public understand why the police do what they do and, just as importantly, if the police understand how their 11.30 am actions are perceived by the public. Sitting suspended. 299WH 1 DECEMBER 2010 HIV 300WH

HIV My hon. Friend is correct to highlight the need to address the problem of the AIDS epidemic in Africa. 2.30 pm Over the past few years, one of the most effective ways of doing that has been through the Global Fund to Mr (in the Chair): The sitting is resumed. Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. The last Government had a good record in ensuring that the Hon. Members: Hear, hear! global fund was initiated, then adequately resourced. During the most recent meeting of the fund in October, David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): That might be the high, medium and low targets were set for the level of best cheer I get all day. I welcome you to the Chair, Mr replenishment. Unfortunately, the global community Leigh. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship failed to hit the low target, let alone the medium or high in this important debate. I also thank Mr Speaker for targets. allowing this debate on HIV services in the UK to take I understand why the Government do not come forward place on world AIDS day. I have been in Parliament for and state the exact figures for the replenishment of the nine years, but I am still ignorant about how debates are fund. Through DFID, they are conducting a multilateral selected—whether there is a lottery or whether Mr Speaker aid review, and until they decide their priorities, they has a say in the matter. If he does, I thank him; if it was cannot say how much will be made available for the a lottery, I thank the Fates for timetabling this debate global fund. Until we can provide a figure, I encourage on 1 December. Ministers to let the world know, at least with rhetoric, I begin with a point of clarification. This is not for that we remain committed to the global fund. the benefit of hon. Members present in the Chamber, as they are well aware of the procedures of this place, but Much of the world looks to the UK for an international for those who are watching the debate on television or lead in tackling AIDS, and other countries will be the internet, and those who will read the account of the looking to our figures for the replenishment of the debate in days to come. This debate will focus mainly on global fund before making their commitments. The HIV in the UK, but that is not because we think that Government have an excellent opportunity to set a HIV outside the UK is not a problem, or because we are global lead. I was going to make those points about the unaware of the scale of HIV in the developing world. international community at the end of my speech, but I have made them now. Africa has 10% of the world’s population but 72% of the deaths from AIDS, and we are aware of that. Let me return to matters for which the Minister is However, parliamentary procedure means that different responsible—she will be pleased to hear that—rather Departments respond to the debates on different days, than the rest of the world. I will make three points and today it is the turn of the Department of Health, about how we should respond to the ongoing HIV not the Department for International Development. epidemic in the UK and our public policy priorities. Therefore, although an enormous number of points First, I will speak a little about prevention, secondly I could be raised about the global AIDS epidemic, I will will discuss testing and treatment and thirdly I will say in the main restrict my comments to HIV in the UK. something about care and support. Those three things With your indulgence, Mr Leigh, I might also sneak in a do not exist in isolation; they are not, to use fabled few comments about the international scene; I alerted management-speak, in “silos.” One point leads into the Minister about that in advance. another, but for the purposes of the debate I will say a little about each issue in turn. If colleagues are anxious to hear about the international aspects of the HIV epidemic, I should say that a world The backdrop to this debate is not only the ongoing AIDS day reception will be held this evening at 7 pm in financial constraints under which all Governments around the CPA Room. You are invited, Mr Leigh, as are all the world are operating, but the NHS reconstruction hon. Members, friends and colleagues. and reconfiguration that the Government have embarked on, as well as the messages contained in the public Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): My health White Paper, launched yesterday by the Secretary hon. Friend is performing a service by raising the issue of State. Because the national health service is undergoing of HIV/AIDS in the UK. Does he also recognise that a process of change and transition, there is some uncertainty. many people, both inside and outside the country, want Until we get answers to some of the questions that we to know what the UK Government intend to do about raise, that uncertainty will continue. the future funding of the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, As I pointed out in the main Chamber this afternoon, Tuberculosis and Malaria? That body has an excellent although the Minister’s responsibility on such matters is record in getting drugs to people with TB, malaria and constrained to the NHS in England, the HIV virus does particularly AIDS, many of whom are still in desperate not respect geographical borders. It is incredibly important need. for the Government to work closely with the devolved Administrations in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast to David Cairns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who ensure a coherent, joined-up approach. That is the only was a distinguished and long-serving Minister at DFID. way to tackle the virus in a way that will see a reduction In a sense, it is a false dichotomy to say that there is an in the number of people affected and reverse the rate of AIDS epidemic in the UK and an AIDS epidemic in increase in new cases of the disease. Therefore, although Africa and never the twain shall meet. One of the I am addressing the NHS in England, the message must largest at-risk populations in the UK is the African be heard by those who configure the NHS in the devolved community––people who come from Africa and are Administrations. I was pleased to hear that the Secretary HIV positive, or those who contract the disease in the of State for Scotland will meet the Minister responsible UK within the African community. I will speak about for health in Scotland tomorrow, and will put that that in a moment. important issue on the agenda. 301WH HIV1 DECEMBER 2010 HIV 302WH

The first issue that I mentioned was prevention. In Mr Thomas: Don’t do yourself down. the early days of the epidemic, not much was known about the virus. There were no drugs and no effective David Cairns: Yes, I am doing myself down here. I am treatment. Messaging was, by necessity, extensive and of the generation that came to adulthood when the untargeted. Those of us old enough will remember the virus was making its first big impact, so those messages adverts with the collapsing tombstones and the gravelly really stayed with me. I wonder whether that is the same voice telling us about the new virus—AIDS—and how today, particularly, although not exclusively, for young dangerous it was. We remember the posters and the gay men of 17, 18 or 19. We cannot be squeamish about radio adverts, which were essentially blanket advertising this issue. We must speak a language that they hear and for the whole UK. People debate the relative impact of will listen and respond to. I do not expect the Minister those messages, but we remember that campaign many necessarily to go into that in detail today, but I want an years after it happened, so it did have some impact. assurance from her in that regard. I know, particularly The situation of those who have HIV in the UK given her former career, that she is not squeamish about today means that that type of mass media advertising is these things, and we cannot be squeamish when people’s not perhaps the best way of getting a message to those lives are at stake. most at risk. That point was made in the foreword to the Of course, one way to prevent the spread of the virus “Halve It” document, by Lord Fowler, about which I is to ensure that everyone who is HIV-positive knows will speak shortly. Lord Fowler was a distinguished that they are HIV-positive—knows their status—and is former Secretary of State for Health and Social Security, receiving the correct drug treatment. It is not widely and he is remembered very fondly by people who work appreciated that when someone who is HIV-positive is on behalf of and alongside those with HIV and AIDS on the correct level of antiretroviral drug treatment, for the forward-looking approach that he took. As he they become significantly less infectious. I had not acknowledges, such mass communication messages are appreciated that—I must confess that that was ignorance no longer relevant, and the campaign must be more on my part—until fairly recently. It means that treatment targeted. for one person is prevention for another. Will the Minister tell us whether the Government’s When an individual is on ARVs and is less infectious, strategies on sexual health and HIV propose to target that helps to constrain the spread of the epidemic and messages on specific, at-risk communities, and particularly when people know their HIV status, it alters their but not exclusively on younger gay men, for whom some sexual practices. Most of the evidence and studies show of the safe sex messages may have been lost in time, and that. The more people we can test and the more HIV- the African community? Those communities are not positive people who know their status and are receiving mutually exclusive, of course, but the messaging to each the right treatment, the more we will do to prevent the will have to be different. Particularly now that more spread of the virus. heterosexual people are contracting the virus, many of whom are in the African community, there is a pressing Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD) rose— need to develop messaging that speaks to that community and to its values and structures, whether through Church or faith networks or whatever, so that we can overcome David Cairns: I am happy to give way to another some of the ignorance and stigma in the black African vice-chair of the all-party group. community in this country. I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments on what she proposes to do about Jenny Willott: I have just had a baby and I was tested that. automatically for HIV during my pregnancy. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that extending such automatic Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con) rose— testing could play a valuable role in identifying cases very early so that people can receive the treatment that, David Cairns: I am happy to give way to a vice-chair as he said, will not only help them with their own of the all-party group on HIV and AIDS. medical needs, but prevent them from spreading the condition? Pauline Latham: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, in addition, white heterosexual people who perhaps have got divorced recently, after having had a monogamous David Cairns: The hon. Lady makes an excellent relationship for many years, are now going out into the point. I think that it was my right hon. Friend the world of single dating and getting into a mess because Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), they do not realise that HIV/AIDS is out there in the when he was Secretary of State for Health, who introduced heterosexual community? Is that not an expanding area automatic testing in pregnancy. If we look at the graph, that we should also be targeting? we see that the tail-off is quite astonishing: once opt-out testing was introduced for pregnant women, the numbers David Cairns: The hon. Lady is right. I was saying of babies being born HIV-positive plummeted. that the messaging should not go exclusively to gay men Of course, the issue is not just about babies. Quite and to people in the African community. There must be often when we are talking about the prevention of a message for everyone, but the messaging needs to be mother-to-child transmission, we focus on the baby, but differentiated. There will need to be different messages a woman is involved as well. As the hon. Lady rightly to different people, within relative constraints. I hope says, if a woman’s own HIV-positive status has been that the Minister will deal with her point. diagnosed at the beginning of pregnancy, she can be There is concern. I am of the generation that came to put on the correct course of ARVs. That is why, in maturity at the time when the AIDS epidemic—well, I the northern world, mother-to-child transmission has might not have come to maturity yet; it is probably up been, if not completely eliminated, massively reduced— for debate whether I have reached maturity. because not only ARVs but the correct education about 303WH HIV1 DECEMBER 2010 HIV 304WH

[David Cairns] A saying that we hear over and again now in Africa is that the face of the epidemic is female. That is not just breastfeeding are making an enormous difference. because of mother-to-child transmissions, but because However, almost 500,000 babies born in Africa every of the disempowerment of women and the limiting of year are HIV-positive. That is completely preventable— women’s ability to make choices about their own sexual entirely avoidable. If pregnant women are tested and and reproductive health. Of course, that is not the case put on ARVs, they do not need to pass on the virus. It is solely in Africa; it is the case elsewhere in the world as one of the great scandals of our age that something that well. However, it is a particularly pressing problem in is solvable—we have solved it here—could be solved Africa and one that we must not lose sight of. throughout the world with the correct financial support I was talking about the need to ensure that people and the political will, but it has not been. who are HIV-positive know that they are HIV-positive. That is why the all-party group is pleased to support the Mr Thomas: Is not one of the conclusions that can be Halve It campaign, which is composed of many agencies, drawn from the comments made by the hon. Member clinicians and groups advocating on behalf of people for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott), as well as from my with HIV. It is campaigning to halve the number of late hon. Friend’s point about mother-to-child transmission, diagnoses by 2015. That is an ambitious target, but the that we need to ensure that the Department of Health document sets out steps that can be taken to meet it, and DFID work closely together so that the lessons of and I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments on success in dealing with HIV in this country can be them. properly worked into our development policy abroad? Yesterday, I was pleased that when I urged the Secretary Is it not therefore a concern that DFID’s HIV/AIDS of State for Health, while he was making his statement team seems to have shrunk very small—if indeed on the public health White Paper in the House, to look any cadre of skills in this area is left in the Department at the Halve It campaign, he gave an undertaking to do at all? so and see whether it could form part of the HIV and sexual health strategy. I would be grateful if the Minister David Cairns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He confirmed that she will look at the campaign’s document, has far greater knowledge of these matters from within particularly at the steps that can be taken to halve the DFID than I have. If what he says is true, clearly it is a numbers of late diagnoses and of those living with very worrying development. I was fortunate enough to undiagnosed HIV by 2015. meet some members of the HIV/AIDS team in DFID a I shall press on because I know other hon. Members few weeks ago. Whether or not the team is smaller than are keen to take part and I want to hear the Minister’s it used to be, it is certainly very committed. I also met reply. Once a person is diagnosed––I shall speak about some DFID workers when I was in Kenya a few months some of the hurdles in a moment––the virus changes ago, and they are doing a tremendous job. from being in its potentially lethal undiagnosed state, It is to the credit of the Government that they have which poses a wide public health risk due to how it can protected the international development budget, but of be transmitted, to being a more normal—I use that course there will be reprioritising within that budget. word advisedly—long-term managed condition. That Part of what we are doing as an all-party group is brings different challenges with it. ensuring that these issues are not lost in the reprioritisation. One thing that we are looking for in the detail of the This is what people find very frustrating about the NHS restructuring plan is how people will access services international dimension of this issue. Enormous progress in the long-term managed phase of the condition. Who has been made and the tide is beginning to turn. If we will commission those services, particularly in low- withdrew funding or support or lost the political will at prevalence areas? Until those questions are answered, this stage, it would be a disaster and a tragedy, not least there will be uncertainty in the community. I want the because in five years’ time we would have to return to Minister to answer specifically the question of who will the matter, because we could not let the number of commission HIV services in the new restructured NHS. deaths and new infections let rip as we saw happen in Will it always be the GP? Is the GP the best placed the 1980s and 1990s. person to do so? Do GPs have the time and the expertise, particularly in low-prevalence areas? I am sure that GPs Mr Thomas: Will the all-party group, as part of its in much of London, Brighton, Manchester or Glasgow thinking about the Government’s multilateral aid review, have the necessary expertise because they have the caseload, also consider funding for the new UN women’s agency? but in other areas that might not be the case. Is a I ask that in the context of the comments from a one-size-fits-all approach across the NHS the right previous UN Secretary-General, who said that AIDS in solution or is something a little more granulated necessary many parts of the developing world has an increasingly to deal with the full complexity of the issue? female face and that we need to ensure that we continue We have to face up to the fact that a lot of people who to champion efforts to tackle issues relating to gender are HIV-positive simply do not want to access services equality—for many reasons, of course, but in particular through their local GP.Whether it is wise or unwise, it is to help with the fight against AIDS. understandable in some areas, particularly in smaller towns or villages, where everyone knows everyone else, David Cairns: My hon. Friend makes an excellent and you know who works in your GP’s surgery and they point. The new agency has real potential to make a know everybody and everything about you. Under those difference. We are all relieved that some of the world’s circumstances and given that the stigma prevails, and appalling, oppressive, anti-women regimes that were the myths, misunderstandings and prejudice that people muscling in have been set to one side, which will allow with HIV face, it is understandable that there are those the agency to focus on the issues that he mentioned. who will not want their status to be known in their own 305WH HIV1 DECEMBER 2010 HIV 306WH community. In evidence put forward yesterday by the Jenny Willott: Will the hon. Gentleman also suggest National AIDS Trust, we saw how many people face that we need to tackle the stereotypes about the kind of discrimination in the workplace due to their HIV status. person who might have HIV? That is one issue for AIDS is a complex condition. It affects people physically, people who do not go to their doctor, or who do go but emotionally and psychologically. In that complex mix, whose GP does not pick up on it. As the hon. Member it is important that the NHS is responsive to that and for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) mentioned earlier, allows people pathways to treatment that might not GPs may not think that a middle-aged, heterosexual always be the same in every place. I would be grateful white woman is likely to be HIV-positive. We need to for the Minister’s views on that. tackle those stereotypes. Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): I David Cairns: The hon. Lady is correct. Part of the congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. education of GPs must be about looking at the symptoms, Because stigma is still attached to this condition, people not only what the GP imagines a typical at-risk person in rural localities, such as mine, will seek advice and would be. Having said that, we need to show that those help from further afield, thereby distorting the figures within high-risk groups of people are being tested as well. on the prevalence of the condition in certain parts of The tremendous progress that has been made in the country. testing in the past few years is truly astonishing. Someone David Cairns: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He can be tested and have the result in less than a minute. I represents an area that is not only largely rural but on hope that he will not mind me mentioning it, but the the borders of Scotland and England, which brings me hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Simon Kirby) to the point I mentioned at the very beginning. I imagine saw this first-hand last night when he received a test that many of his constituents will be accessing HIV through the services provided by the Terrence Higgins services in Carlisle, for all sorts of reasons, but partly Trust in the House, and he had the result in less than a due to the stigma still associated with the condition. minute. Testing is not the long drawn-out process it was They do not want to access services in small villages and years ago, but can be done much more quickly. towns. Ultimately, we have to get to a situation in which Finally, on care and support, people are living longer there is no stigma, prejudice or discrimination and with the virus, which is a very good thing, but it brings people can happily access GP services for a long-term with it challenges and complications—physical, emotional managed condition, as people with diabetes, asthma and mental. It is very important that we understand the and other long-term managed conditions can. Until need to have a strategy for people living longer with such a time, we have to be sensitive to these issues. HIV. The AIDS support grant is no longer ring-fenced, Another reason why people are wary about always and I am not arguing that it should be re-ring-fenced, accessing services through GPs is the lack of awareness but I am arguing strongly for it to stay within the grants and understanding that many GPs demonstrate. Part of that go to local government as a specified budget line. the reason why we have so many late diagnoses is that In that way, local people can hold their local authority GPs do not pick up the telltale signs often enough. An to account in exactly the way that the Secretary of State alarming number of people had seen their GP on many outlined yesterday. It is his belief that local people occasions during the 12 months before they were eventually should be able to see the services being provided for diagnosed as HIV-positive, and it was not picked up them, and argue for services. If the AIDS support grant that they might have been HIV-positive. An astonishing disappears as a title altogether and is subsumed into the number of people had been in-patients in the 12 months general pot of money that local government gets, local preceding their diagnosis; they were almost certainly people will not be empowered to come forward and HIV-positive while they were in hospital, but it was not demand the kind of services for which money is being picked up. made available. A lady recently got in touch with the all-party group—a In conclusion, I hope that the Minister will address middle-aged, professional, white lady—who had suffered some of the concerns about the AIDS support grant serious recurrent health problems for two years and had and the Government’s vision for it. I hope too that she seen numerous clinicians, including a GP on many will be able to calm some of the fears and uncertainties occasions, before anyone thought to offer her an HIV out there on how HIV services are to be commissioned, test, which brings me back to the point that the hon. how they will be accessed, and how they will be supported Member for Cardiff Central made. That lady was a under the new NHS that the Government have in mind. textbook case: she had every symptom and yet her GP Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. Five Back never thought to offer her an HIV test. That is clearly Benchers have intimated that they wish to take part. I happening across the country, which explains why we intend to call the wind-ups at about 3.30 pm. Hon. have 22,000 people who are HIV-positive, but do not Members can do the maths, so I ask for brief speeches know it. It is not the case that none of them ever visits from now on. their doctor—they regularly visit their GPs, perhaps they even go into hospital as in-patients, and yet their status is not picked up. That is a public health disaster 3pm because the ability of those people to infect others is Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): I congratulate the much greater than it would be if they were receiving the hon. Member for Inverclyde (David Cairns) on securing correct course of ARVs. this important debate, whether by skill or fortune. We need assurance that, within the restructuring, The Hove and Brighton area has one the highest rates GPs will get very good guidelines and necessary training, of HIV in the UK. Many of my constituents live with and be encouraged to offer people an HIV test in the the virus, and others have friends and colleagues that do routine manner suggested earlier, to tackle undiagnosed so. It is a great privilege to speak up for them on any HIV. day, but especially on world AIDS day. 307WH HIV1 DECEMBER 2010 HIV 308WH

[Mike Weatherley] are among the best in the world. However, we must not be complacent, as parts of the NHS in our area will be I wish to make two clear points. First, HIV does not less HIV-aware, as we heard earlier. I urge the Minister always conform to stereotypes. HIV does not affect to work with her colleagues, the all-party group on HIV only young men on the gay scene, or people in or from and AIDS and charities such as the Terrence Higgins Africa. As we heard earlier, it also affects white, middle-aged Trust to tackle the problem. Training for GPs and and older straight men and women. Until politicians, surgery staff could be one way to do so. policy makers, doctors and the general public take that Medical care is not the only service needed by older fact on board, dealing with HIV will continue to be people. In the same Terrence Higgins survey, fewer than hard work. Secondly, 26% of all who live with HIV in one in 12 older people with HIV said that they would the United Kingdom are undiagnosed. Tackling this approach a mainstream organisation for older people must be a priority. for support. Age UK and the Terrence Higgins Trust In Brighton and Hove City primary care trust, about are working to change attitudes and to improve 450 people are HIV positive without knowing it. The understanding of HIV in mainstream social care and Government and local services must do everything that social networks for older people. Again, I hope that the they can to bring the number down, and I am determined Minister will listen to the views of people living with to do what I can to support the NHS at the local level in HIV as her Department moves to create a social care this task. system fit for the 21st century. My two earlier points are linked, because it is precisely I turn next to late and undiagnosed HIV.Of all adults those who are not in what are known as high-risk diagnosed with HIV in 2009, 52% were diagnosed late, groups who get diagnosed the latest. Heterosexual men when their CD4 count dropped below 350. People with have the worst rates of late diagnosis, at 65%. That is the worst rates of late diagnosis are over the 50s. Recent possibly because they are less likely to consider themselves research suggests that the majority of those people will at risk, as we heard earlier, and unlike women they will have had previous contact with their doctors. Late never be tested in ante-natal settings. It could also be diagnosis, whatever the age, is a problem; if treatment is because clinicians may not consider them to be at risk. not started promptly, it can do serious damage to the Heterosexual men over 50 years old have the worst rates body and severely cut life expectancy. of diagnosis; 73% of those not diagnosed until over the HIV treatment is excellent, and if diagnosed promptly, age of 50 are diagnosed late. one can live to an old age. It is not right that some of my HIV comes in many shapes and sizes. At 54%, more constituents will not have this opportunity by being than half of new diagnoses in 2009 were among diagnosed too late to benefit from it. It even makes heterosexuals, something that surprised me when financial sense to treat people early; it is much cheaper researching for the debate. At 51%, more than half of to have people someone stable on HIV treatment than it HIV-diagnosed individuals accessing HIV care in 2009 is to treat them for the endlessly recurring serious were infected through heterosexual sex. The proportion conditions that can result from undiagnosed HIV. HIV of heterosexual diagnoses in which people are believed treatment also reduces viral load; as a result, those who to have been infected in the UK has risen year on year are diagnosed and on treatment are less likely to pass on throughout the epidemic. From 2003 to 2007 it doubled the virus. from 12% to 24%, and it continues to rise. It is now Now is the time, while we are focusing on public about 32%. The over-50s represent one in five of all health and while we are worrying about public finances, adults seen for HIV care in 2009. That is due to an to take action to tackle late diagnosis and undiagnosed ageing cohort of people diagnosed previously, as well as HIV. I am proud to say that people in Brighton and an increase in new diagnoses among older people. Hove are not sitting back waiting for someone to come I dwell for a moment on the growing cohort of people up with a solution but are already working hard to of more than 50 years of age that live with HIV. This tackle the problem. There have been two pilot studies in cohort will be bringing new needs to the NHS, and it our area looking into ways of reducing undiagnosed should be ready for them. As people get older, they see HIV, using clinicians in the area. Of 596 people tested, more of their GPs. Many older people living with HIV only two positives were found. However, even more suffer side effects from treatment; overall, they report people were identified through an anonymous survey twice as many other long-term non-HIV conditions as done by the university of Brighton. I urge as many their non-HIV positive peers. As a consequence, they people as possible to be tested, because of the 3,872 need to spend more time in health care, including anonymous tests 54 were positive. primary health-care settings, than their peers. That makes My constituency is proof that HIV can affect anybody, their relationship with non-HIV specialist doctors almost whatever their background, age or sexuality. As more as important as their relationship with HIV doctors. people with HIV grow to old age, we must ensure that The Terrence Higgins Trust surveyed about 400 people they receive services of which we can be proud. Such aged over 50. It found that services should include prompt diagnosis. “respondents repeatedly told stories of discrimination, ignorance and poor clinical treatment in generalist healthcare, particularly in primary settings.” 3.6 pm The survey concluded that there was important work to Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): I am delighted to be done to address HIV discrimination in primary care take part in this debate. First, it gives me the opportunity settings, as doctors there may not be so familiar with to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde people that have the virus. (David Cairns) not only on securing the debate but on In Hove and in Brighton, we have some of the most the important work that he does in chairing the all-party HIV-aware clinicians in the country, and our specialists group on HIV and AIDS. Secondly, it gives me the 309WH HIV1 DECEMBER 2010 HIV 310WH opportunity to recommend to the Minister the work of This is a significant day. It is a day to remember those Summit House Support. It is a fantastic charity, led by who are no longer with us, it is a day to acknowledge its chair Claire Pennell and its chief executive Suzanne and pay tribute to those who have worked so hard on Callen; for the last 18 years, the organisation has provided this issue and, crucially, it is a day to raise awareness. phenomenal services and support for people with HIV On the first of those issues, the scars on those who have and AIDS in Dudley and Sandwell. lost people, particularly in the early years, are clearly Thirdly, it gives me the opportunity to thank the raw. Thankfully, I do not know anybody who has died Minister and her Department for the support that Summit from AIDS, but I have friends who do, and they recall House receives from the Department of Health through the pain and suffering vividly. the Dudley and Sandwell primary care trusts. Finally, it It is important that we remember those who have gives me the opportunity to raise a number of points died and acknowledge their suffering. There is a wonderful that I know are of interest to the staff at Summit House quote in the film “Philadelphia”, where someone says Support and those who work in the field. that social death precedes physical death. That was I am delighted that the Secretary of State for certainly true in the early days, but I hope that things Communities and Local Government has written to will get a lot better as time goes on. It is important, local authorities promising to increase spending on however, to look at how far we have come. AIDS support over the next 10 years—I understand by This is also a day to acknowledge those who have £10.5 million. Is the Minister able to tell us how done so much. I pay tribute to each and every person organisations in the HIV sector such as Summit House and organisation for their work. There are too many Support can safeguard the way in which local authorities organisations to mention, but I would like to pay tribute decide to spend their grants? Will there be criteria for to the National AIDS Trust and the Terrence Higgins allocation, a needs assessment or some sort of ring-fencing Trust. I would also like to mention two individuals. The process that considers the real needs of those with HIV? first is the chief executive of the Terrence Higgins Trust, We have heard that is often a hidden group, so it needs Sir Nick Partridge, who is here. He has done a tremendous to be done through specialist agencies, and it is fair to amount of work over the years, and he should be say that some of those working in the field are extremely acknowledged. The second is Lord Fowler, and I was concerned that money could be sidelined for other uses pleased last night when he was acknowledged for the by local authorities if things are not monitored correctly. work that he did in the very early years. As my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde said, people living with HIV are worried about the GP Perhaps most importantly, today gives us an opportunity commissioning proposals now being considered. HIV is to raise awareness of HIV and AIDS here and abroad. clearly a specialist area, and GPs historically have not I know that we are concentrating on the UK today, but had much interaction with those who have to live with I hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about it. In some cases, there is not the relationship of trust the issues abroad, because they are significant. that should exist. Many people living with HIV are The latest figures from the Health Protection Agency genuinely frightened or concerned about the proposals. show that more people than ever are living with HIV. The current sexual health strategy will end shortly. Last year, there were more than 6,000 new diagnoses, What plans do the Government have to write a new which is fewer than the year before, but only slightly. strategy, given that the sexual health agenda has changed That emphasises that this is still a major problem. As since 2004? Has the Minister also considered the extent many Members have mentioned, statistics also show to which NHS employees are routinely trained in HIV that slightly more than half of new diagnoses are among routes of transmission? I understand from the service heterosexuals, but the rate of infection in the gay community users I met at Summit house that staff who have received is still very high. Worryingly, there is an increase in such training and who understand the facts about diagnoses among those over 50, as my hon. Friend the transmission and infection are likely to be able to deal Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) rightly with people infected with HIV more effectively than said. We have also heard about the quarter of people those who have not had such training. Does the Minister with HIV who are undiagnosed. That is a huge problem, think that training in HIV routes of transmission should which really needs addressing. be incorporated into employees’ standard training if is I represent a constituency in Leeds, where the prevalence not already part of it? of HIV cases is average for England, with about 850 Finally, would the Minister be prepared to visit Dudley people receiving treatment and care in the city. Again, to see first hand the fantastic work done at Summit however, many of those people have been diagnosed house? If her diary does not allow her to do that, would very late, which highlights the need for early diagnosis. she be prepared to let me bring people from Summit We also have a growing African population in the city, house to meet her in London? and there is a real link between HIV abroad and in the UK, as more and more people move around the world. In addition, we have one of the most vibrant gay scenes 3.10 pm in Yorkshire, and I hope that we can encourage as much focus as possible on those two groups, because prevention (Pudsey) (Con): May I say what a really is the key. pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh? I congratulate the hon. Member for Inverclyde It is important to mention the campaigns of the (David Cairns). I am rather reassured that, after seven 1980s. The Conservative Government of the mid-1980s years, he does not know how these debates are chosen, faced a massive challenge on an emerging issue, and because I certainly do not have a clue after seven even the best experts were learning day to day. Those months. campaigns were scary. I was at school at the time, but I 311WH HIV1 DECEMBER 2010 HIV 312WH

[Stuart Andrew] Ealing do not even know that they have it. That is roughly the same ratio as at the national level. When remember them, and they still have an impact on me. As HIV is discovered early, people can be treated and go on the hon. Gentleman said, those old campaigns were not to live normal lives with near-normal life expectancies. exactly targeted, but they were highly effective. On the other hand, late diagnosis leads to more AIDS- Developments in medicine these days mean that people related illnesses, increased pressure on the NHS and a with HIV can expect to live well into old age. This higher rate of onwards transmission. We have too high generation could be forgiven for thinking that the problem a rate of diagnoses being made at a point when treatment has gone away, and that is a big problem, particularly in should already have started. As hon. Members have the young, at-risk groups. In the 1980s, HIV had already said, in 2009 52% of people diagnosed with HIV were taken root among gay men in this country. Meanwhile, diagnosed too late, and 73% of those who died were a devastating HIV/AIDS epidemic was about to take diagnosed too late as well. off in Africa, with inevitable consequences for this What can we do to ensure early diagnosis for all cases country and others. It is now estimated that, by 2012, of HIV? The Health Protection Agency believes that all there could be close to 100,000 people with the virus in new members of GP surgeries in PCTs with high prevalence this country. That is a tenfold increase on the 1980s rates, including Ealing, should be offered an HIV test. figures, so the problem has not gone away. We need to go further, and provide incentives to GPs I pay tribute to groups such as CHAPs, which have and other health care workers to encourage HIV testing. worked with community groups all over the country, We also need to improve antenatal testing. We already and I am lucky that we have such groups in my constituency. have good provision for HIV testing of unborn babies. [Interruption.] I notice, however, that I need to get a Even though one in 450 women who give birth is move on, so I will get rid of some of the pages of my HIV-positive, only 30 babies born last year had the speech. virus. However, we could go further. Let me quickly say that I am delighted that we are I want to comment briefly on the growing link between highlighting some of the work that has been done over HIV cases and mental health. Obviously, meeting the the past few years, although I should emphasise that mental health needs of a population is important in work still needs to be done to save lives. There needs to itself, but concentrating on people with HIV can have a be foreign aid, education and greater testing. Let me particularly beneficial effect, both clinically and in cost- also say how happy I am that HIV and sexual health effectiveness. People with depression have a more adverse have featured highly in the public health White Paper, reaction to their HIV treatment in general. It is cheaper and that is important. It is also important that we for the NHS to invest in 10 sessions with a clinical acknowledge the problem in socially disadvantaged cases. psychologist than to pay for costly treatments further Finally, there is no one silver bullet when it comes to down the line because someone did not take the initial preventing HIV transmission, but we can, through a treatment properly. range of interventions, start to reverse this epidemic. Those sufferers receiving the right psychological support Like the Government of the 1980s, the coalition faces a are less likely to miss their medication, more likely to considerable challenge in tackling HIV. Unlike that react positively to treatment, and less likely to pass on Government, however, the coalition can draw on 25 years the disease by engaging in unsafe sex; such aspects of of experience in dealing with the epidemic and in the matter can cost more in the long run if the right understanding what works and what does not. I wish support is not established immediately on diagnosis. It them well. is therefore important for the Department of Health to integrate HIV sufferers into long-term mental health 3.17 pm strategies. Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, ) (Lab): I Although I am pleased that drugs for HIV sufferers congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde will be ring-fenced in the health budget, social care and (David Cairns) on securing a debate on such an important protection for HIV sufferers, which is often provided topic. HIV policy has long been close to my heart, and through local authorities, will not be. Social services are it is a pleasure to be able to speak in the debate. It is hugely important for people with HIV, and a squeeze important that I can speak on an issue that affects my on their budget is likely to have a detrimental effect on constituency so greatly. Although we are discussing the the mental health status of many HIV sufferers and cost effects of HIV in the UK, we cannot do so in isolation; much more in the long term. I am aware that through we need to discuss many global issues as well, and I am the CSR an announcement was made of an increased sure that we will have an opportunity to do so. Today, allocation to social care for people with HIV. however, I want to address issues relating to the UK I now want the Department of Health to inform local and particularly to my constituency. authorities of their likely budgets as soon as possible, so Ealing primary care trust has the seventh highest that councillors can start to plan a thorough care plan prevalence of HIV in a country that has more people for people living with HIV.Only through that long-term living with the disease than ever before. Rates of new planning for mental health cases, more social care and a infections in the UK remain high, and, as my hon. greater push for early diagnosis can we really start to Friend said, the number of over-50s infected with HIV tackle the problem of HIV in this country, and ensure trebled between 2000 and 2009. It is obvious that a new that nothing stops people with HIV living normal lives. policy has to be developed to deal with these pressing new issues. 3.23 pm One of the most important factors in this complex Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): I am delighted issue, which we must acknowledge straight away, is to be speaking under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh, diagnosis. Roughly one in four people with HIV in and I congratulate the hon. Member for Inverclyde 313WH HIV1 DECEMBER 2010 HIV 314WH

(David Cairns) on obtaining this timely debate on world men who have sex with men reported that 76% had AIDS day. What is good about the debate is the unanimity eliminated the risk of onward transmission three months between the parties. We often have heated debates, but after diagnosis. If the test comes back negative, of we all appreciate the importance of today’s debate for course, it allows the recipient a wake-up call and a people suffering from HIV/AIDS. chance to change their habits and think about the risks Now that the recent tough economic choices have that they have been taking. In that way they are more been laid on the table, we are able to take an opportunity than likely to help to prevent a future case of HIV in to review what is and is not working in the UK and try the UK. to make improvements. HIV/AIDS is a serious virus Early diagnosis also allows the correct antiretroviral that poses a risk not only for those who are already drugs to be prescribed. That in turn reduces the viral suffering from it but also those around them. The ease load and subsequently reduces the chances of transmitting of transmission of the disease means that, if we do not HIV. By giving people the opportunity to take quick bring the number who have it back down from 83,000 and effective measures against the virus we are putting or so, we run the possibility of letting the virus dictate them back in charge of their lives; they are not having our actions, instead of taking pre-emptive measures. their lives dictated by HIV. I should like the Minister to Unfortunately, as a member of the Select Committee on take note that women, and indeed men, who have been International Development, I have seen at first hand raped should automatically be monitored to ensure that that once the virus gets into sections of society where it if they suffer from HIV/AIDS it will be diagnosed becomes more prevalent, it can, left unchecked, destroy extremely early; that is not something that they have countless lives and families. chosen. Britain is a world-leader in international development, The truth of the matter is that the male gay community and central in the international community’s voice and and the black African community are most susceptible actions against HIV/AIDS worldwide. However, to be a to HIV infection owing to cultural sexual practice. credible voice and to make an inroad into the virus There is a role for civil society in bringing UK levels of worldwide we need a credible tactic of beating the virus HIV down by bringing early diagnosis to those groups at home. Funding has been flatlining in recent years and and deconstructing the stigma attached to screening for we risk, if we are not careful, losing more than two the virus. Everyone gets scared, intimidated and decades of progress that has been made in fighting the embarrassed from time to time and those natural feelings epidemic. might be a barrier, preventing people in those at-risk The White Paper offers more flexibility to the health communities from seeking early diagnosis. service, by offering GPs more control over the budgets Coming out of the financial turmoil of the past few that they inherit and how they spend the money allocated years, it is important that we should take every opportunity to them. Perhaps outlining the financial rewards of that is given to us to make positive changes to the early screening will help to strengthen the argument. previous norm. We have the opportunity to put early The Health Protection Agency recently estimated that screening at the heart of the public health White Paper the prevention of one new HIV infection saves the and to create a social practice in which the stigma of public purse between £280,000 and £360,000 in direct screening is broken down through the participation of lifetime health care costs. That is a staggering amount civil society. However, I believe that there is only one per new diagnosed case. In 2008, had all of the UK’s mention of HIV/AIDS in the White Paper. I simply ask 3,550 acquired infections been prevented it would have that we do not let the opportunity slip away. Positive saved approximately £1.1 billion in direct health care changes to the current HIV strategy can and should be costs. made: most importantly, they need to be made. Alternatively, we can look at the money that could be made, not saved, by early diagnosis. People living with 3.29 pm HIV who have an early diagnosis can contribute wealth to the nation by staying in work for longer and therefore Ms (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) paying more in taxes; they are able to manage their (Lab): I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in health better, which results in their taking fewer days off this important debate on world AIDS day, and I sick. They can plan for their financial future so as not to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde require incapacity benefit in such large numbers, and by (David Cairns) on securing the debate. having quick access to antiretroviral drugs they can Let us remember that some people who are suffering ensure that they do not require full-time carers, who are from HIV/AIDS, or suspect that they are, will have often family members, for so long. That means that supportive partners, be in supportive communities and their family can go out and work and contribute to the face the future with some positivity. Many, however, national purse. will be very frightened and very alone. It is a good thing Of course, financial reward is not the only benefit that we in this Chamber can openly debate this issue of diagnosing HIV early. The significant social benefits and its ramifications, because it will reassure not just to early diagnosis are equally if not more important. communities, activists and lobbyists but individuals who For instance, a 35-year-old male diagnosed early with may read and see the debate this afternoon. HIV, and with quick access to antiretroviral therapy, We must remember that we have moved some way would now be expected to live to 72—only a few years since the early frightening adverts in the 1980s. No one less than someone who would be deemed a perfectly who saw those adverts, with the tombstones collapsing healthy man. and the voice of doom, has ever forgotten them. We Early diagnosis enables people who are HIV-positive should congratulate Norman Fowler on taking up the to take positive steps in protecting others through safe cause and using the power of his Department to put it sex. A recent study of newly diagnosed HIV-positive in front of the public. 315WH HIV1 DECEMBER 2010 HIV 316WH

[Ms Diane Abbott] My hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde said that he did not want to talk about international issues, but When we look at some of the indices around HIV/AIDS, given that 38% of new HIV diagnosis is among black we see that there has been an increase in HIV testing African men and women, I do not apologise for raising among gay men. Testing rose from 58% in 1997 to 72% the issue of funds for the Global Fund to fight AIDS, in 2008. We have seen a plateau in new diagnoses Tuberculosis and Malaria. I know that that is not a among gay men, and we now see a consistently high rate matter for the Minister and I do not expect her to of condom use among them—at least nine out of 10 respond on the specific point. None the less, will she now use condoms. The fact that we have seen such pass on to her colleagues the very concerning fact that progress is partly a tribute to the people who took up the global fund is £13 billion short of what it needs? If the issue all those years ago. It is also a continuing the UK was to raise its pledged amount in line with tribute to the communities, activists and health providers France and other western European countries, the fund who provide both care and commitment, and we need would be able to go to private sector donors such as the to acknowledge that today in this debate. Gates Foundation and reach the amount of money it However, there is still some way to go. How we go needs. forward on HIV/AIDS will be a test of the reorganisation In that context, I should like to mention—again, I do of both the NHS and public health that has been not expect the Minister to respond on this point—that announced in recent months. In principle, I do not in the next few weeks we will have EU trade talks with think that anyone in this Chamber is opposed to the India in Brussels. There is a great concern that as a reorganisation, but it is just this sort of issue, which is consequence of the trade talks, India might not be able not consistent across the country, that is not necessarily to produce the cheap generic drugs that have played well represented in GPs’ lists and has different levels of such a huge role in the fight against AIDS in Africa. information across the country; there may not be as That would be a blow not so much for Indian industry, much information in rural areas as there is in Brighton but for the millions of people in Africa who have and London. That will be a test of the reorganisation’s benefited from access to cheap generic drugs. effectiveness. We know that AIDS can affect anyone, and that HIV/AIDS is no longer a death sentence, which is apart from the gay community the largest community good news. Thanks to new drugs, research and greater affected by HIV/AIDS is that made up of black African understanding, people are now living with HIV. As one men and women; currently, 38% of new HIV diagnosis of my hon. Friends said earlier, we have 65,390 people is among that group. The stigma attached to HIV in in the community living with HIV.In fact, it is increasing that community cannot be overstated, and it very much faster among the over-50s than among any other group, hampers efforts to reach out to people and achieve early which raises new issues that were not considered in the diagnosis. era of the adverts with the crashing tombstones and the The problem among black African men and women— voice from above. and among other groups, as well—is that they present My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall late and are therefore diagnosed late. That not only (Mr Sharma) mentioned the issue of depression and gives them a poor prognosis; it means that the cost of how that interconnects with sufferers of HIV/AIDS treatment is much more expensive than it need be. That and the support that they need in relation to that. There is true of any individual or any group that presents late. are ongoing concerns about care and support that were Another issue with black African men is that even not an issue 20 years ago. If we are to offer sufferers though they may be having sex with men, they refuse to from HIV/AIDS equity of health care and, as far as consider themselves as gay. They think that HIV is possible, a good quality of life, we must consider care something for the gay community and not for them, so and support, within the new health service and local they end up presenting very late indeed. They are more authority structures, as we have not in the past. likely to be undiagnosed and to live in areas in which a relatively high proportion of the population are not on As I said at the start of my remarks, the reorganisation their GP’s list, so they are not really interacting with the of the commissioning of health care and of the public authorities. health service will be tested by this issue. Many ordinary people on the ground will judge the reorganisation by I should like to use this debate to stress the importance how issues such as this are dealt with. I stress, as my of educational and informative work generally and with hon. Friends have stressed, the importance of a national the black and African community in particular. We strategy. We need to consider how it can go forward must do more with the Churches, because that is probably under the new arrangements. Will the Minister tell us the most effective way to reach those groups. Any who will be responsible for commissioning and funding Sunday morning, there will more people in African-led the information work that is needed now more than churches in Hackney than at any political party meetings ever—in particular, the specific education work that for 12 months of the year. goes into the communities that I have mentioned? Who We need to normalise testing and offer it in a much will be responsible for commissioning preventive work, wider range of settings—not just for black and African care, treatment and support? I will listen with interest to men and women, but for the population as a whole. I the Minister’s responses to those questions. was routinely tested when I had my son 19 years ago and thought nothing of it. We need to make testing I welcome the new public health arrangements in more routine so that people do not think, “If I go for principle. Public health has been a core activity of local this test, it will badge me as someone at risk.” Universal government since the 19th century and so, as a former testing may well be a step too far, but we need to make local councillor, I am glad that public health has “come testing available in a wider range of contexts. home” to local authorities. However, because I know 317WH HIV1 DECEMBER 2010 HIV 318WH local authorities and how they work, I want to be of people in the House, but we face new challenges due convinced that it is possible effectively to ring-fence the to the reorganisation of the NHS and the fact that a public health funds that they will receive. generation of people are now living with AIDS. I imagine that what some local authorities will do—or I look to the Minister to answer some of the questions will be tempted to do, conceiving themselves to be asked in this debate, particularly about how the under financial pressure—is to rebadge existing work in reorganisation will affect the treatment of HIV/AIDS, the areas of social care and environmental health as and to reassure us that the information needed in a public health expenditure, and the new funds that all of range of communities will be publicised. I will listen us in Westminster Hall imagine are there for public with interest to her response. health will melt away in the current climate. So this will be a test, as much as anything else, of how far it is 3.52 pm possible effectively to ring-fence public health funds The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health once they fall to local authorities. (Anne Milton): It is a pleasure to serve under your Then there is GP commissioning, and the issue of chairmanship, Mr Leigh; I do not believe that I have HIV/AIDS will be a test of that system. The important been in this position before. I am grateful to the hon. thing with GP commissioning is that GPs should Member for Inverclyde (David Cairns) for securing this commission for their community and not for their list. debate. I congratulate him on his chairmanship of the As an east end Member of Parliament, I know that all-party parliamentary group on HIV and AIDS, and I there are many public health issues that manifest themselves congratulate the group itself on continuing to raise more extensively among people who are not actually on awareness in Parliament, in the UK and internationally. GPs’ lists, for a whole number of reasons. Tuberculosis Today, as we all know, is world AIDS day, so this is a case in point. A disproportionately high number of debate is timely; I believe that Mr Speaker has some people who suffer from TB are not on a GP’s list, for a influence over when debates occur. It is an opportunity number of reasons. HIV will be a test of the extent to to reflect on what we have achieved, where we stand and which GP commissioning consortia will commission for the challenges ahead, many of which have been mentioned. the community as a whole and not just for the people I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart who are on GPs’ lists and present themselves for treatment. Andrew) for his gracious comment that this is a chance It will be important to know what will happen to for us to pay tribute to those whom we have lost along some of the survey work that is carried out by organisations the way to the present improvements in life expectancy such as the London Health Observatory; I had a meeting for those with HIV/AIDS. A dear friend, Eric, with with representatives of that organisation this morning. whom I worked in the 1980s, died from AIDS; I am sure That survey work is the only way of seeing what the that many of us know people who lost their lives. It is so trends are in issues such as HIV. It is easy for us to say tragic when we consider the advances made. this afternoon that 43% of HIV/AIDS sufferers are in The hon. Member for Inverclyde focused on the London, many more are in Brighton and so on. However, situation in the UK. The hon. Member for Hackney we live in a globalised environment and there are trends North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) mentioned and changes. Only survey work—not only national the global situation. It is important to note that the survey work, but sometimes precise survey work—can number of new infections decreased by 19% between track what is really happening with HIV/AIDS. 2009 and 2001. Today, more than 5 million people have access to life-saving antiretrovirals. That is more than a Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I understand that thirteenfold increase in five years, but significant challenges some of the figures that have been released in the past remain. More than 33 million people are living with year for those who have just been diagnosed with HIV HIV, 2.1 million children are infected and the World show that it is not just a young person’s disease any Health Organisation estimates that at least 10 million more; it also affects those who are 50-plus or 55-plus. I people still need treatment. There is a great deal more to wonder whether the hon. Lady is aware of that. If she be done, and no room for complacency. is, what does she feel should be done to address that issue of those in an older age bracket who are now I would like to mention my noble Friend Lord Fowler, succumbing to the disease? and welcome the announcement of next year’s inquiry into HIV and AIDS. Like the hon. Member for Inverclyde, I am old enough to remember when the disease came on Ms Abbott: That is an important point, and it is one the scene. A great friend of mine, a professor of virology that I touched on earlier. It shows that anyone can find who went over to the States, came back and said that it themselves— was extraordinary to see an acquired deficiency, as the disease’s name suggests. He talked about a curious 3.42 pm illness that people were getting. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. At that time, a tremendous amount of work was being done by many people, not least my noble Friend, to fight HIV/AIDS. It is still a powerful model for 3.51 pm public health campaigns; we cannot forget those On resuming— tombstones. Such images enabled a lot of the preventive work from which we still benefit. I reassure the hon. Ms Abbott: In conclusion, I congratulate all those Member for Inverclyde that mass communication had who have campaigned, worked and raised consciousness an effect. The rate of sexually transmitted diseases on this issue over 20-odd years. Improvements have decreased across the board. However, he also mentioned been made, partly through the efforts of communities targeted messages, which is where we need to focus and campaigners and partly through the commitment our efforts. 319WH HIV1 DECEMBER 2010 HIV 320WH

[Anne Milton] The pilots picked up a significant number of previously undiagnosed people in high prevalence areas. It is good Although prevalence is relatively low in the UK news that people are happy to be tested, because it population as a whole, some groups are disproportionately means that we can pick up cases of HIV that would affected, including men who have sex with men, and otherwise be missed. We are working on the best approaches black African communities. In 2009, they accounted for to expand HIV testing in a variety of settings and, as 42% and 36% respectively of the 65,000 individuals the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington living with diagnosed HIV infection. However, as my said, that is really important. If a wide variety of hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) settings was available, a GP practice is not necessarily rightly pointed out, stereotypes are dangerous, and the where people would go for a test—far from it, I would figures that I have quoted must be used with caution. say. I am also pleased to note that, thanks to the leadership 3.56 pm and drive of local HIV clinicians and others, findings Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. from the pilots in Brighton, Lewisham and Leicester have now been embedded in local practice, which is to 4.4 pm be congratulated. The Health Protection Agency will publish its final report on the pilots early next year, On resuming— which many people will look forward to seeing. We need to see what we can do to put into practice what we Anne Milton: My hon. Friend the Member for Hove have learnt. It is vital to increase testing for HIV, as it is also mentioned the specific problems with late diagnosis, for a number of sexually transmitted diseases, so we which I shall return to. The outlook for most people continue to fund targeted programmes for the groups with HIV in the UK is more positive than it used to be, most at risk from HIV in the UK. We have also funded and the vast majority can now plan for their future with the Medical Foundation for AIDS and Sexual Health a great deal more certainty, which is to be welcomed. to provide training resources for health care professionals We must not forget that we have the dedicated work of in secondary care. many scientists around the world to thank for that, along with action from Governments from both sides of I would like to thank the hon. Member for Dudley the House. North (Ian Austin), who kindly sent me a note to explain that he has had to leave the debate, for raising However, challenges remain. As Members have pointed the work of Summit House Support. We will be looking out, despite our successes, a quarter of people with HIV at the findings of the pilots I have mentioned, and I do not know that they are infected and so are unable to would certainly not like to miss an opportunity to go to benefit from the treatment available, and they can Dudley, should the opportunity arise, to have a look at unwittingly infect others. Around half of the newly what Summit House Support is doing. diagnosed infections are diagnosed late, after the point at which people should have started treatment. The For HIV, as for all STIs, prevention remains the most hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma) raised important response. In the UK, the majority of HIV that as an ongoing and growing problem, along with the infections are sexually transmitted, and the vast majority fact that many of the people affected have serious of those could have been prevented; that is a message mental health problems. The mental health and well-being that we really must hang on to. of people with HIV and AIDS is seldom mentioned, but it is extremely important to recognise. 4.9 pm I share the concerns raised in the debate about the Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. need to reduce the number of people with HIV who are undiagnosed or diagnosed late. We need to increase 4.15 pm testing, especially in those areas that have a higher On resuming— prevalence of HIV. We have seen a good uptake of HIV testing in sexual health clinics and antenatal settings, but all health care professionals need to be alert to the Anne Milton: We need to ensure that safer sex messages importance of offering appropriate HIV tests. are clearly communicated and understood by all. I think that we also have to clamp down a bit on Ms Abbott: Does the Minister have any practical irresponsible marketing. I have been approached by proposals for increasing testing, such as different contexts those who are unhappy about the promotion of DVDs in which it can occur? and other material promoting “bareback” sex. We need to address such issues and I know that a lot of people Anne Milton: I thank the hon. Lady for raising that and organisations, such as the Terrence Higgins Trust, point, which is important. I will return to it later in my are doing all they can to stop the promotion of such remarks. The hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny material. To those who are most at risk of HIV in the Willott) mentioned the automatic testing when she had UK, I say that the Government work very closely in her baby. The Department of Health has funded eight partnership with the Terrence Higgins Trust, the African pilot projects, which have now been completed, that Health Network and a huge number of other voluntary looked at the feasibility and, importantly, acceptability and community groups. of providing an HIV test as part of routine services Yesterday we published a White Paper on public offered to newly registered adults. I am encouraged by health and later this month we will publish a number of the findings from those projects, which confirm that supporting documents, including a public health outcomes offering HIV tests in GP practices, hospitals and community framework. We will be thinking about what the best settings is acceptable to patients. outcomes might be for HIV and they will be included in 321WH HIV1 DECEMBER 2010 HIV 322WH that document. I know that Members will look at that The hon. Member for Inverclyde raised issues about document with care and feed back to us their feelings global funds. I am sure that he will also raise those on it. In the spring, we will publish a position paper on issues with my colleagues in the Department for sexual health which will, of course, include HIV. That International Development. However, as my ministerial paper will take into account many of the issues that brief also covers EU health, it may be of note for him to have emerged this afternoon. realise that such issues are recognised by many people within Europe and across the world, and we continue to David Cairns: I will let the Minister catch her breath work both nationally—within our own member states—and and I appreciate that we are really up against the clock. internationally, because collectively we can do a great She says that there will be a position paper in the spring. deal to help each other. Does she envisage that that will lead to a full new HIV The hon. Gentleman also said that generally a one- strategy, or will it just remain a position paper? size-fits-all approach does not work and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hove said, anonymous testing Anne Milton: No, it will be a sexual health strategy. and treatment is often crucial. We will announce our The Government and the NHS need to play their part, commissioning intentions soon. However, the hon. and we need to support individuals to make responsible Gentleman’s point is well made. lifestyle choices. We continue to provide the very best I think that it was the hon. Member for Dumfries and HIV treatment services, but others have a role to play Galloway (Mr Brown) who mentioned the issue of and they are often better placed than the Government commissioning services in rural areas, which poses particular to make a difference. The hon. Member for Hackney challenges and very real problems. It is absolutely crucial North and Stoke Newington mentioned the role of that we get that commissioning right. We will announce churches in that regard and they can have a significant our intentions soon and I hope that they will address impact. some of the points that he raised. Voluntary community groups, industry, responsible We need to talk about sex. We need to talk about media, churches and faith groups all have a part to play. people’s sexual health. We need to talk about people’s That collaboration is so important in tackling stigma responsibilities in looking after their sexual health, and and discrimination, which is still a very real issue for we all have something to offer and we all have something many people affected by HIV.That is particularly important that we can do personally, particularly those of us within those communities who find sexual health issues who are Members of Parliament. As MPs, we have more challenging than other communities. unprecedented access to media, particularly in our local Stigma means that people refuse tests, do not take areas. We need to do everything that we can to express precautions and do not go for treatment. I was delighted the fact that this is everybody’s business and that people to see that the Prime Minister highlighted the issue of need to take responsibility for their sexual health. Their stigma in his world AIDS day podcast. Tackling HIV is sexual health not only affects them; it affects the others everyone’s business and we can all make a difference to around them and their families too. Only then will we reduce stigma, reduce new infections and enable people be able to see a future for people living with HIV/AIDS living with HIV to lead full and productive lives. that we all want to see. 323WH 1 DECEMBER 2010 Metal Theft 324WH

Metal Theft of authorities have not responded to my FOI request, I fear that my newly compiled figures are just the tip of the iceberg. 4.20 pm We found 1,873 reported instances of schools being Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): It is a targeted by metal thieves, predominantly for the lead pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. from their roofs. We know that 185 leisure centres and You remain the fastest voter I have ever seen, so if there 156 community centres have been targeted, as have— is another Division I will attempt to keep up with you. shockingly—71 cemeteries and crematoriums. Thirty-three I am here to talk about local authorities told me that metal theft has cost them “the second biggest threat to our infrastructure after terrorism”. more than £100,000 in insurance claims and repair Those are the words that Paul Crowther, of the British costs. My borough of Sandwell has suffered the highest Transport Police, used to describe the growing problem losses of any authority—more than £720,000. It is of metal theft in the UK. It is my contention that, if closely followed by Leicester, which lost £530,000, and al-Qaeda or militant student demonstrators perpetrated Greenwich, which lost more than £470,000. some of the attacks to critical UK infrastructure on the Last October alone, Sandwell council lost £20,000. scale and frequency that we are currently seeing, the Such thefts have cost Sandwell, and councils in Birmingham, Home Office would be taking this matter far more Wolverhampton and Walsall, nearly £1.6 million over seriously than it currently appears to be taking it. the past three years. The scale is huge and it is getting bigger. It is not taking place just in the country’s metal- 4.21 pm bashing heartlands: the London boroughs of Greenwich, Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. Sutton, Bexley, Bromley, Barking, Dagenham, Enfield, Havering and Redbridge estimate that between them, 4.28 pm they have lost £1.9 million as a result of metal theft. On resuming— Anything can go. Three stainless steel slides were Mr Watson: Whether it is copper from the side of a stolen from Birmingham, and the city also lost £30,000 railway line, broadband cable, a drain gully or lead worth of goal posts. Durham council raised 97 repair flashing from a school roof, not a day goes by when orders for its schools, and admitted that that may not metal theft does not feature in the daily crime roster for even begin to dig into the problem. Sheffield lost a police in the UK’s towns and cities. I seek to make the swimming pool roof that cost £200,000, and Thurrock case to the Minister that metal theft is a national council lost the eternal flame from the East Tilbury war problem needing urgent attention. It is eroding our memorial. The cost of replacement was so great that a critical infrastructure and therefore the economic capacity fibreglass replica had to be made. of the nation. After outlining the issues, I will make the More worryingly, I have uncovered an increasing case for the need to collect more accurate data on metal problem of thieves targeting our key infrastructure theft incidents, for amending the Scrap Metal Dealers networks. The most recent police estimate of the cost of Act 1964 and for protecting uniformed British Transport such thefts to communication, energy, transport and police. I will also make the case for new regulations to water industries is £770 million per annum. This year deal with the rise of unscrupulous dealers in precious alone has seen more than 5,000 reported thefts from the metals. railway, gas and electricity networks. Such thefts have The Minister has gained a reputation for being hard- resulted not only in the loss of services to vulnerable working and fair-minded. I hope to convince him to customers, but have included attacks on 999 services focus in the coming months on the increasing problem and communication services that are provided to the of metal theft. Many businesses and police officers to various police forces and military establishments. whom I have spoken are frustrated with the progress In the past six months, BT has seen more than 900 made in the past, including—dare I say—under my own attacks on its network, which has affected more than Government. Six months into the coalition Government, 100,000 customers. It has lost more than £5 million in I hope that he has found his feet and will be able to the past year, and on current trends, it looks as if it will move up a gear in that policy area. lose £6 million in the current financial year. In one The Home Office line appears to be that the police attack in Scotland last week, 32 tonnes of copper cable have the necessary tools and powers to tackle metal were stolen in a single night. Energy company E.ON theft: I will make the case that they do not. The problem faces similar problems. Last year, substation theft cost is great for two important reasons: soaring commodity the company £1.3 million, and by the end of May it had prices and the ineffectiveness of the Scrap Metal Dealers already seen 175 reported incidents. The figures speak Act 1964. In the past two years, for example, the price of for themselves. It is not just the monetary cost that is refined copper has more than doubled on international worrying, but the danger in which the thieves are putting markets. Part of the problem faced by the Minister is both themselves and the engineers who work for companies that his Department has found it difficult to understand such as BT and E.ON, through their illegal activities. the scale of the problem because it has not collected the Today, Gwent police superintendent Harry Gamlin, appropriate data. head of the taskforce that deals with metal theft in Using the Freedom of Information Act, I have Wales, said that the problem is now so bad that it undertaken a comprehensive assessment into the effects threatens to “fracture social cohesion.” He added: of metal theft in local authorities up and down the “There is a common perception of metal thieves being loveable country in 2007, 2008 and 2009. It is not an exact rogues, old-man-Steptoe-type characters...People need to wake picture, but it provides a more comprehensive view of up to the fact that they are in fact highly organised and skilled the scale of misery caused by metal theft throughout gangs of criminals who more than likely have links to other forms the country. The results are shocking, but since a number of serious and organised crime.” 325WH Metal Theft1 DECEMBER 2010 Metal Theft 326WH

The taskforce in Wales is a welcome step, but tougher the fact that thieves do not just target high-value, precious laws are needed. and commodity metals. The resale value of what can be It is not just the seasonal “wrong type of snow” and stolen can often be minimal. To quote Tony Glover, leaves on the track that are holding up our train network: spokesman of the Energy Networks Association: commuters now have to contend with the regular misery “It is pathetic, quite frankly. As a crime it is sometimes as little of year-round signalling thefts. tells me as £5, £10 or £20… But its impact is enormous—it’s almost like that commuters and operators have lost 19,417 hours in an act of vandalism. Some of our equipment is oil-insulated and a £5 brass valve—that’s all they stole— resulted in 30,000 litres of delays since 2006-07. Overall, it estimates that it has oil coming out of some equipment.” spent £35 million since then on metal theft-related Just to illustrate the point, this week I was visited by crime. That includes £25 million of schedule 8 costs. my constituent Ravi Kumar who told me that thieves That is £25 million that could have been spent on had stolen his old, rusty metal table from his front improving the railway network that has been diverted to garden. Ravi had put the table out for collection by essential maintenance because of metal theft alone. Sandwell council. Thieves looking to make a quick cash I travel to Westminster from Sandwell and Dudley return made off with the table before the council van station every week. Between September 2009 and this arrived. There is a black market price list for this October there have been five serious incidents of cable stuff—£10 for Ravi’s table, £20 for a stolen manhole theft in the Tipton area alone and I have been late for cover, £80 for a catalytic converter. These items are meetings and nearly missed votes. These incidents in being stolen because they are easy prey to thieves to sell Tipton caused £485,000 worth of damage to the rail on to rogue scrap metal dealers. network causing hundreds of hours of delays for More worryingly, police and the Black commuters. I find these figures staggering. Across the Country chamber of commerce continue to alert me to whole of the west midlands in the last 18 months there the rise in the number of burglary dwelling offences have been 52 cable thefts on the railway causing 1,500 across the country in which the offenders are stealing trains to be cancelled. I am told by Network Rail that the victim’s gold or silver jewellery. There is currently no the route between London and Scotland up the east legislation covering the buying and selling of gold and coast is by the far the worst affected, especially in silver by independent retailers, which are becoming Yorkshire and the north-east. That route has recorded increasingly common in most towns and cities. Despite days on which up to 40 thefts have taken place. Commuters some franchises still following good practice, in which and British business are the people who are really losing no transaction can take place without a series of identity out as metal theft soars. checks, some of the rogues are beginning to make an I have unearthed other examples that are shocking in impact on communities. their scale and audacity. There are the thieves who cut a I would like to see two minor changes to the law to heavy copper cable used to link an MRI scanner to the tackle the problems that I have outlined. One change main electricity supply in Northamptonshire. Thieves would deal with commodity metals such as copper, lead stole cable twice in a week meaning 70 patients had to and brass, and the second change would deal with have their diagnostic appointments rearranged. Lives precious metals such as gold and silver. The Scrap could have been lost. I have been told of the sick thieves Metal Dealers Act 1964 needs to be made fit for the who stole two brass plaques listing the names of the modern age. It is outdated, it is not well understood, Blackley men who fell during the first world war in and, in its current form, it simply fails in its purpose. Manchester. The community had to unite to make sure Many hon. Members may not be aware of the legislation that the 215 war heroes could be honoured on to which I refer. As it stands, the Act requires dealers to Remembrance Sunday. keep a simple book detailing all scrap metal received at Just as sickening was Linda Smith’s story. Linda the place of purchase. The book must also show that all contacted me to tell me about the theft of metal containers scrap metal is either processed at or dispatched from for holding flowers from graves from Abney park in that place. That is inadequate. Stoke Newington. The Minister may not be aware that In the Sandwell area, and across the country, I repeatedly the Ecclesiastical Insurance Group, the leading church hear stories of some unscrupulous scrap metal dealers insurers, report that they have received more than 7,000 opening as early as 5 am. Cash in hand is given to the claims for metal theft since the start of 2007 at an seller, and it is not unusual for them to turn up with a estimated total cost of £23 million. wheelie bin full of manhole covers. The unscrupulous Councillor David Sheard of Kirklees council has scrap metal dealer, who does not check too closely been in touch. He told me about the £18,000 worth of where the metal has come from or who the seller is, then litter bins that the council had stolen in a single week. sells it on to legitimate dealers, who have no idea that The case of Tom Berge who escaped a jail sentence for they are buying stolen metal. In some cases, the metal is stealing lead worth £100,000 from some of the most exported to the far east due to global demand. Some historic properties in Sutton in Croydon has also been dealers will let sellers get away with giving their name as brought to my attention. He used Google Earth to Joe Bloggs or Mr Smith. Scrap metal is big business, identify listed buildings, churches and schools that he and the record keeping among rogue dealers can be very could target. In Sandwell, two people have already lost poor or even non-existent. One police force has told me their lives trying to steal cabling from a disused factory that records kept by metal merchants do not always after an explosion. provide them with a good enough audit trail to track Five-year-old Keanu Jones of Dudley road in Tipton back such thieves, and I know police forces across the could so nearly have been the third life lost last week. country feel the same. He fell down an exposed drain when out with his mum. Although I appreciate that recent dialogue between The cover had been stolen. It left him shaken and the British Metals Recycling Association and ACPO covered in bruises. Keanu’s case is important. It highlights has resulted in the development of a code of practice, 327WH Metal Theft1 DECEMBER 2010 Metal Theft 328WH

[Mr Watson] Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. This is a short Adjournment debate. Does the Second Church Estates which includes measures that go beyond those prescribed Commissioner, the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony by the 1964 Act—including requesting proof of identity, Baldry), have the permission of the Minister and the limits on cash payments and guidance on best practice hon. Gentleman to speak? for deploying CCTV—I have real doubts that those go far enough. Unscrupulous metal dealers have already made it clear that they are unwilling to abide by good Mr Watson: Yes. practice, and a voluntary code is extremely unlikely to change the mindsets of those people in the industry. My preferred option would be to make scrap metal dealers 4.45 pm operate under a cashless system. If thieves cannot make Tony Baldry: I sought the permission of everyone, a quick profit, the incentive to steal in the first place Mr Leigh, including Mr Speaker. The hon. Member for would be dramatically reduced. I draw the Minister’s West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) has done the House attention to the state of Oregon, which did that in 2009. an enormous service and what he has had to say is truly All the signs from Oregon suggest that the beefed-up shocking. I am grateful to him and to the Minister for regulations have caused a drop in the number of people allowing me to intervene briefly in this debate. I do so in looking to sell stolen materials. Many police forces are my capacity as the Second Church Estates Commissioner. also seeking powers to close down suspected rogue dealers on the spot, and they want metal users to Lead theft is one of the most serious threats at consider embossing their metal to make it less attractive present to the Church of England’s 1,600 churches, to steal. I hope that the Minister will seek ways to make many of them grade I listed buildings. Indeed, 45% of that happen. all grade I listed buildings are churches, and other faiths have similar concerns. Night after night, lead is being It strikes me that there is a need for precious metals, stolen from church roofs, and thieves now use Google such as gold and silver, to be brought within the scope Earth to identify targets, including church roofs. of the 1964 Act. We cannot allow the situation to continue in which there is no legislation covering the Since 2007, the main insurer of ecclesiastical churches buying and selling of such metals. The Black Country has received 8,000 claims for lead theft, at a cost of chamber of commerce tells me that it would like precious about £23 million. That represents only the insurance metal dealers to register their business with the local claims; the total cost, including damage to churches, is authority every three years; it would like to see registered much greater. In many instances, churches that have dealers required to keep a written record at each precious replaced their roofs at considerable expense have been metal store of all items received, processed and dispatched repeatedly targeted—14 times, in the case of one church. from that store; and it would like deeper proof of Of course, if they have had the lead stripped from their identity from those who sell precious metals. I support roofs, it is often difficult, if not impossible, to get the Black Country chamber of commerce in its call, and re-insured. As the House can imagine, the effect on the I hope that the Minister will take its suggestions seriously. morale of parishioners and communities is devastating. Based on new figures that I have made public today, I In spite of that, there have been very few prosecutions. believe that the Government should arrange for data on Congregations feel that the police regard metal theft as metal theft to be better collected and to be presented in a victimless crime and that they are reluctant to investigate a clearer format. The failures of local authorities and or take action, even when there is an established pattern police forces to accurately chronicle every incident make of theft taking place on consecutive nights. I understand contributions to public policy and finding solutions on that the Home Office does not even record the theft of this subject more difficult for Ministers and stakeholders. lead as a separate offence. Although some of the thefts It is time for the courts to get tough. The Home Office may be opportunistic, there is growing evidence that should ask the Ministry of Justice to issue specific organised gangs are involved, and the graph of the guidance on metal theft to magistrates, as the Ministry incidence of theft mirrors, with remarkable consistency, of Justice did with home repossessions. the price of lead on the world metal markets. The higher the price of lead, the more churches are stripped Analysts tell me that they expect a 62% rise in copper of it. prices over the next few years. Coupled with the A number of things need to be done. Scrap metal Government’s announced cuts to policing budgets and yards need to be more regularly spot-checked by local the fact that the future budget of the British Transport authorities and the police. Local authorities have a police is in doubt, that could see a further rise in metal responsibility to inspect the registers of scrap metal thefts. If the UK adopted a cashless approach to scrap yards. The hon. Gentleman’s suggestion of a cashless metal sales, I am certain that thieves would be deterred. transaction is interesting, and I hope that the Minister There would simply be no quick cash incentive for them will take it seriously. This is a crime that has to be taken to steal commodity metals and there would be a proper seriously. I am sure that Home Office Ministers take it audit trail. I hope that the Minister will look seriously seriously and that they will ensure that it is consistently at the proposals of the Black Country chamber of taken seriously by police forces and local authorities commerce on precious metals. Metal thieves erode UK throughout the country. resilience. They undermine communities and threaten businesses. They have to be stopped. The Church of England’s Church Buildings Council, chaired by Anne Sloman, has set up a working group to address the problem urgently. It is taking evidence from The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry) police, scrap metal merchants, the legal profession and rose— other interested parties. When it reports early next year, 329WH Metal Theft1 DECEMBER 2010 Metal Theft 330WH

I hope that the Government will consider its conclusions police forces and a forum in which industry and the carefully and endorse what it has to say as a way police can share information and good practice, which forward. is extremely valuable work. I welcome the recent distribution of the ACPO tactical guidance to police forces. That 4.48 pm provides, in clear detail, examples of effective practice The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the in tackling metal theft. Home Department (James Brokenshire): May I thank The nature of metal theft means that joint working is you, Mr Leigh, for ensuring that this debate started just as important at national level as at local level. That promptly despite all of this afternoon’s Divisions? May is why the recent work by the telecommunications and I also congratulate the hon. Member for West Bromwich utilities industries, in working on joint enforcement East (Mr Watson) on securing this Adjournment debate operations with local police forces, is so important. about the important subject of preventing and tackling I particularly welcome the efforts of industry in designing metal theft, and on the measured and detailed way in out this crime. For example, BT has been working to which he has rightly highlighted the issues? I am sure improve the protection of metal assets through improved that the House will appreciate the information that the security at storage sites. There are other examples of hon. Gentleman has advanced. I assure him that I industry partners reviewing and tightening up their regard the issue as serious. I take a personal interest in it planned disposal of waste metal through the use of because of my own experiences as a constituency MP. I approved contractors and scrap metal dealers. know the impact that metal thefts can have. On the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964, I am grateful May I also thank the Second Church Estates to the hon. Gentleman for bringing to the House’s Commissioner, my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury attention the issue regarding the effectiveness of the (Tony Baldry), for his speech on churches and the existing legislation. The Act contains a number of challenges facing the Church community? I hope that I requirements relating to the regulation of the scrap will be able to comment on that in the time remaining. metal dealer industry—namely, the requirement for each Metal theft is an issue about which I am concerned, dealer to register with their local authority; the fact that and I give the assurance that the Government take it all seller details are to be recorded; and the fact that seriously. The need to reduce this crime is important, metal cannot be accepted for sale from the under-16s. and I thank hon. Members for raising the issue. Let me We have seen excellent examples in Avon and Somerset be clear: we recognise the serious consequences of metal and elsewhere of how the existing legislation can be theft. It is not a victimless crime. We have seen the used. significant disruption that metal theft causes to critical national infrastructure throughout the United Kingdom. I note and welcome the British Metals Recycling Association code of practice, which it has recently That includes power and transport networks, with issued to its members and to which the hon. Gentleman the stealing of live copper cable, which has resulted in referred. However, although we welcome such attempts death and serious injury for people involved. In addition, at self-regulation, we are also seeking to join up the as hon. Members highlighted, a number of historic existing regulatory framework better by contributing to buildings, including churches, are being targeted for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs their lead roofs and damaged. Many other examples review of waste policies—due to report in the summer were given, but the time available means that I must try of next year—to see what changes, if any, need to be to deal with the relevant points that have been highlighted made to legislation in this area. this afternoon. I recognise that the constituency of the hon. Member Environmental and waste regulations cover the operation for West Bromwich East has a specific issue. I was of the scrap metal dealer industry, as well as the recently in Sandwell, talking to the community safety transportation and storage of waste materials. Those partnership and the police. They underlined to me the regulations are mostly enforced by the Environment importance that they place on dealing with and responding Agency. Therefore it is vital that the police and the to metal theft. I congratulate them on the work that Environment Agency continue to work together to ensure they are doing in dealing with the problem. that all the existing legislation is used effectively. The police, other law enforcement agencies and industry The hon. Gentleman will no doubt appreciate that are making efforts to tackle metal theft, providing a the lead on funding for the British Transport police is strong foundation on which to build a future partnership the Department for Transport, rather than the Home approach. There are excellent examples of effective Office. I know that Westminster Hall debates are not multi-agency partnerships that have come together in the arena in which to make party political points about affected areas to tackle their local metal theft problem. I the economic situation, but I note what the hon. Gentleman am keen to ensure that the practical impact of that said and I am sure that colleagues at the Department work, which shows how much difference can be made for Transport will note it when they refer to the report by motivated and committed partnerships that take the of the debate. problem seriously, is shared more widely. We need to As the Minister responsible for crime prevention, I build on it. Many scrap metal dealers are doing excellent am determined to develop a joint plan of working with work in supporting law enforcement activity and reporting law enforcement agencies, Departments and industry to suspicious behaviour. We need to support their efforts, tackle metal theft at every stage, from theft to disposal. while bearing down on those who operate outside the Because joint working is so important, I want the plan law. to be jointly owned by the Home Office and the Association At national level, the Association of Chief Police of Chief Police Officers multi-agency metal theft working Officers metal theft working group, chaired by Deputy group. We also need to consider the intelligence arena. Chief Constable Paul Crowther, provides leadership to We are looking at how regional intelligence units can 331WH Metal Theft 1 DECEMBER 2010 332WH

[James Brokenshire] Health Care (North Yorkshire and York) share intelligence effectively on the more serious organised thefts of metal. That is an important subject that needs 4.56 pm further examination. (York Outer) (Con): It is a pleasure, On the cashless model, I share the concern that Mr Leigh, to serve under your chairmanship. Naturally, criminals are able to turn up at scrap-metal yards and I am grateful to those hon. Members attending this walk away with unlimited sums of cash in exchange for debate and to the Minister. metal. We will examine that in developing our work More than 800,000 people are fortunate enough to plan in this arena, including establishing a cashless live in our beautiful part of the country, the North model. As part of a review of the industry standards, it Yorkshire and York region. It is part of God’s own requires further examination. county, as some would say. Quality of local health care I believe that the Church Buildings Council is producing is of the utmost importance to many, if not all. Local a report on metal theft, and I would welcome sight of health care provision is often viewed alongside other the report once it is complete. I hope that we will be able criteria such as employment and crime. It is a measure to incorporate its recommendations, when appropriate, of the local community’s economic well-being and in our forthcoming work plan. happiness—a word that seems to be floating around in I apologise that my comments have been so brief, but many debates at the moment. I reiterate the importance that I place on this matter. We It is in our moral and economic interests to ensure are committed to preventing and tackling metal theft. I the widest availability of health services, the shortest am certain that we have a real opportunity to tackle this waiting lists and the most impressive health outcomes, crime by working together in partnership with law and they should be implemented in each and every enforcement agencies and the industry. By working region. Ensuring such health care standards for all is together and having a joint working plan, I am sure that truly one of the most essential roles of Government. we will be able to tackle all aspects of metal theft and Indeed, I am sure that all those Members here today provide the catalyst for a concerted effect by all agencies will agree that health-related concerns crop up frequently to reduce this crime. in our constituency mail. That is certainly so in my constituency of York Outer. When it comes to health, I often have nothing but sympathy with the majority of my constituents who are affected. Many of them feel betrayed by the system, weighed down by the bureaucracy, frustrated by the delays and ultimately let down by those supposedly in charge. In my experience, it is easy to comprehend such frustration. After all, our national health service is a national treasure. We champion it, and rightly so. However, when patients report negative experiences and local health funding concerns, our national treasure is in danger of being tarnished, to the detriment of health care users and service deliverers. That, in my view, should not be allowed to happen. The health service has some of the most caring, compassionate and hard-working nurses and doctors in the world. That is certainly true in North Yorkshire and York. Our health care personnel carry out tremendous work, often in tough circumstances, and they do so out of a sense of public duty, kindness and compassion. I cannot commend these individuals highly enough. However, I am concerned about health care provision in North Yorkshire and York because of the representations that I have received from NHS employees and local patients. The region faces some real health care difficulties. In truth, extremely serious concerns are growing about the capability and performance of the region’s primary care trust and related bodies. Local residents have good reason to believe that a huge range of treatments will be withdrawn, if they have not been withdrawn already. For example, I have received letters regarding the future of IVF treatments, counselling services, broken voluntary sector contracts and the withdrawal of pain relief injections. It also appears that about £2 million will be cut from GPs’ budgets for prescribing medications, and that some physio services are at risk. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. He might be about to discuss this, but my experience from my 333WH Health Care (North Yorkshire and 1 DECEMBER 2010 Health Care (North Yorkshire and 334WH York) York) constituency is that North Yorkshire and York PCT’s residents. I would appreciate the Minister’s comments way of dealing with voluntary organisations in the past on whether the coalition Government will review the few months has been a disgrace, breaching the voluntary funding formula at some future date. However, I also compact between those organisations and the PCT. It suggest that excusing our health care failings in our has caused problems for those important parts of the region on past funding alone would be somewhat naïve. big society that have been operating in North Yorkshire Over the past few years, North Yorkshire and York PCT for so long. has accumulated an overspend of some £17.9 million. Thus, despite the coalition’s welcome commitment to Julian Sturdy: Absolutely. I agree entirely with my protect the wider health budget, services are being cut hon. Friend. The time limit given by the PCT to those in our region to pay for the fiscal irresponsibility of the voluntary organisations is despicable, and it has caused PCT. Moreover, the PCT seems to be intent on resolving fear and concern in the sector. Not only that, if the this deficit immediately because the previous Government organisations lose funding for six months, which might imposed a statutory obligation on all primary care be seen as only a short period, the problem is that they trusts to break even by the beginning of 2011. Such a might not start up again. That is my concern, and I will target-focused piece of bureaucracy has now resulted in go on to discuss it in more detail. the PCT cutting too many services too quickly, possibly Local residents have good reasons to believe that a leading to a diminished health care package for our huge range of treatments will be withdrawn, as I said. If local residents. the truth be told, the status quo is not only unacceptable I have already listed some of the services that are but frightening, particularly for the most vulnerable under threat of withdrawal. My hon. Friend the Member members of our communities. Even describing the current for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) has named the situation as a postcode lottery is too generous. I fear services in the voluntary sector as well. I shall expand that our patch is in danger of becoming an area of on a few examples. First, there is the withdrawal of the health deprivation. pain relief injections. As Members from neighbouring Several different factors require deep consideration constituencies know—my hon. Friend the Member for as we piece together this somewhat depressing picture. Selby and Ainsty () has campaigned with First, we must accept that the region has to some extent me on this—the PCT’s decision to restrict the provision been underfunded in the past. Before 2008, the North of back pain relief injections has provoked a huge Yorkshire and York PCT did not exist. Instead, four reaction from both patients and health care professionals separate PCTs covered the area. Nevertheless, for the alike. purposes of this debate, I have amalgamated funding data to show the PCT’s current funding allocation and Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): I, too, the annual figures stretching back to 2003-04. For 2010-11, congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. I our region’s PCT received just over £1.1 billion, an am not sure whether I should declare an interest, having allocation that places it in the lowly position of 140th received several back pain relief injections in the past. out of 152 PCTs. From a starting point of 127th in The injections are a big issue in the north Yorkshire 2003-04, it has dropped down the funding table each area, as evidenced by the huge postbags that my hon. year. The current funding level is the lowest allocation Friend and I receive, and we have spoken to the Secretary per head of all Yorkshire and Humber PCTs. of State on the matter. Can my hon. Friend recall a PCT funding is currently allocated according to a discussion with the Secretary of State in which he said complex funding formula, often referred to as the weighted that one of his officials would look into the York PCT’s capitation formula. In essence, the formula determines interpretation of the NICE guidelines on back pain the target share of resources to which PCTs should relief injections? Has he received any notification theoretically be entitled, based on a broad range of of those discussions or heard from the Secretary of criteria including population, the local cost of health State’s office? care provision and the level of need and health inequality in the area. Unfortunately, most PCTs never receive an Julian Sturdy: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. allocation equal to their deemed target share according We did indeed meet, and I have not yet received a to the formula. Rather, they move towards it over time, response from the Secretary of State. I hope that the some faster than others. Minister will hear our message here and chase up that Personally, I am slightly critical of the current formula. response, because it is important that we get an answer It often results in greater funding disparities between to our question. different regions, which provoke a profound sense of My hon. Friend mentioned the back pain relief unfairness. Less deprived areas often seem to get a injections, and the issue is causing real concern among certain tag as well. For example, according to the formula, our constituents. Members of the public came to my North Yorkshire and York does not have adequate need last surgery to discuss the matter. The PCT, as my for additional resources, particularly compared to the hon. Friend said, based its decision to cut back pain needs of more urban areas such as Hull. I am not injections on its interpretation of the NICE guidelines. convinced that approaching regional health funding Unfortunately, almost every other PCT interprets the consideration with that mentality—judging whether areas same guidelines in a different way. As such, countless are deprived enough—is a sufficiently robust methodology local people are being forced to suffer enormous and in current circumstances. We must look more deeply at unnecessary levels of pain. the funding stream. Alongside other hon. Members from the region, I I agree that the funding shortfall has increased the have lobbied the Secretary of State. Campaign groups strain on our local PCT and its ability to deliver the best such as York and District Pain Management Support possible health outcomes and equity access for local Group have been leading the way on this as well. I have 335WH Health Care (North Yorkshire and 1 DECEMBER 2010 Health Care (North Yorkshire and 336WH York) York) [Julian Sturdy] fear that local people are simply paying too high a price for that. In the long term, I am more optimistic about also received representations from concerned health health care provision in north Yorkshire and York, professionals. Only last week, Dr Peter Toomey, a consultant largely due to the contents of the health White Paper. anaesthetist at York hospital wrote to me, stating: The localised drive to ensure that PCTs are, at some “I consider that the PCT have made serious errors of judgement point, abolished altogether and replaced by GP-led in coming to their decision to restrict access to spinal injections commissioning bodies, which are influenced by local for the relief of pain. The PCT will not reimburse York Hospital patients, is a measure that I wholeheartedly welcome. for any injection into any part of the spine for any diagnosis unless it has been approved by the PCT’s Funding Request At long last, local patients will have a say in their Panel.” local services, holding the decision makers to account We know—my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and and freeing up our nurses, doctors and health providers Ainsty will back me up on this—that many people are from the red-tape that so often binds them and takes being refused by that request panel. Dr Toomey and a them away from the front line. I hope that the Minister number of his colleagues have fought hard to challenge can reassure me that the transition from PCTs to GP-led the PCT’s policy, but—alas—their medical expertise commissioning will be carried out swiftly to ensure that seems to have fallen upon deaf ears. the interim transitional period will not see a lack of Patients and medical professionals are united in the leadership or direction for local health care services— view that this pain relief service should not have been especially in our area. withdrawn. It has been taken away for the wrong reasons I believe that the PCT will continue to operate until and should be reinstated without delay. The withdrawal 2013, and I plead with the Minister to review to the of such vital services is causing me great concern, as is situation in north Yorkshire and York in the mean time. the withdrawal of funding for numerous voluntary services. Our constituents simply cannot afford to wait three My hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon years for the situation to be remedied. Most specifically, touched on that matter earlier. The York Council for I would welcome any comments from the Minister on Voluntary Service has been informed of a 37% in-year the previous Government’s imposition of a statutory cut, which has been issued by the PCT with just one obligation on PCTs to break even by the end of this month’s notice. Angela Harrison, the chief executive of year. Could that deadline be extended to soften the the YCVS, summed up the whole situation quite aptly blow of the cuts over a greater time period? when she said: The people of north Yorkshire and York depend “These cuts have already had a disastrous effect on front-line upon their health care services, and many are extremely voluntary groups who serve some of the most vulnerable members worried at present. I hope that hon. Members from the of society. At the same time, the infrastructure groups who region—I was going to say “regardless of political support them have had their funds withdrawn at very short allegiances”, but as we only have coalition Members notice, reducing their capacity at a time when it is most needed.” here I will not say that. To give the hon. Member for One specific voluntary case vividly highlights the York Central (Hugh Bayley) credit, he did say that he poor management of the way the PCT has handled this would try and be at the debate today. situation. On 19 October, Yorkshire MESMAC received a letter from the PCT, informing the organisation that We must protect the essential health care services and its contracted health care funding was to be withdrawn funding that our region deserves. I ask and urge hon. within one month. Such blunt and definitive notice is Members to fight and to campaign for that. We must absolutely outrageous. Not only has an agreement been ensure that, before GP-led commissioning starts, the broken, but no consultation took place with the PCT delivers the best service that it can within its organisation, which—knowing the PCT’s overspend— budget. It must focus on service delivery and the outlying would have been happy to sit down and reach a more services to our communities, rather than cutting. amicable agreement. As Tom Doyle, the director of I hope that the Minister will give serious consideration Yorkshire MESMAC, said: to the issues that I have raised. I am grateful for his time. “I want to express my deep frustration at how the process has I know that it has been a hectic day thanks to the been handled, which was, in my opinion, unlawful, disrespectful Divisions, but I am grateful to him for giving us the and showing an arrogant disregard for the PCT’s own agreements time, and I hope that he will give the matter serious and processes.” consideration. It is now feared that Yorkshire MESMAC will be forced to close. 5.15 pm On a wider note, the voluntary services budgets are expected to lead to a saving of some £150,000 for the Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): PCT this year. Given that that is a small drop in the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for York £17 million overspend, I would urge the PCT to look Outer (Julian Sturdy) on securing this important debate, internally for structural and efficiency savings, rather and I add my support to his recognition of the excellent than merely reducing the funding of voluntary groups, work that the health care professionals do in our area. whose work often plays such as vital role in our health He has highlighted that our health grant in North service. If our voluntary health services are forced to Yorkshire is low, which impacts on the services that we close, I predict that far greater numbers of patients will receive. actually require more hospitalised, long-term and expensive When facing the challenge of low funding, the PCT treatments through the NHS, thus undermining the has to look hard at its priorities, particularly with PCT’s initial savings. regard to mental health services. I am always concerned Due to the overspend and service reductions, there about mental health provision, because I think that now exists a lack of trust in the PCT and a complete for far too long in our country it has been a bit of a absence of confidence over its future intentions, and I Cinderella service. In my constituency, the community 337WH Health Care (North Yorkshire and 1 DECEMBER 2010 Health Care (North Yorkshire and 338WH York) York) mental service has closed the Hawthorn day unit, which At present, as my hon. Friend has described, the was extremely popular with its service users and well NHS uses a funding formula based on objectives set by respected across the community. It is claimed that the the previous Government and developed by the independent closure is temporary, but the reasons for its closure run Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation. I know on and on, and it seems endless. that one of the big frustrations for North Yorkshire is While the excuses mount up, some of the most vulnerable whether its rural nature is taken fully into account in people in my constituency—many of whom I have the funding formula, and my hon. Friend has alluded to met—have seen their contact time with counsellors, or that. As a Government, we have asked for that formula their time in respite care, decrease from three or four to be examined. The Secretary of State has asked ACRA days a week to half an hour a fortnight. I am worried to review how NHS resources are distributed, and has about the impact of the change on some of the most explicitly requested that consideration be given to the vulnerable members of the community. In some cases, issues that face rural communities. those constituents have severe mental health problems Looking ahead, from 2013-14 we will have moved to and can periodically be a danger to themselves. I hope the new system of the independent NHS commissioning that our PCT will consider that and, even at this late board allocating resources to general practice consortiums. stage, find a way to reopen the Hawthorn day unit at the How it does that will be up to the commissioning board earliest opportunity. itself, but we are clear that it must do it fairly and consistently across the country. For places such as his constituency, my hon. Friend the Member for York 5.16 pm Outer is right—real pace and purpose are vital to getting The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul the NHS on to a more stable financial footing. I can Burstow): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member assure him that we are keen to make fast progress on for York Outer (Julian Sturdy) on securing this debate, GP commissioning consortiums taking on responsibilities. and I note the cross-party support that he has gained, In that regard, shadow allocations for GP consortiums with the arrival of the hon. Member for York Central will be published late next year for 2012-13, giving the (Hugh Bayley). I note the presence of my hon. Friends new organisations the time and space to test financial the Members for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), for plans before the full system goes live in 2013-14. Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) and for Scarborough My hon. Friend asked whether GP consortiums would and Whitby (Robert Goodwill), and I know that they have to take on PCT debt. I have heard that anxiety are all interested in and concerned about the issues that expressed around the country. The NHS operating my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer has raised. framework, which we will publish in a few weeks, will He has made a powerful case for why we need the set out the rules on legacy debt to ensure that no debts radical reforms across the NHS to which the Government carry forward into the new system. That is challenging, are committed. and we are keen to work through it effectively. Before I turn to the points that my hon. Friend has I shall now come back to the present and say a few raised, I join him in praising the work of NHS staff words about the current financial position in North across Yorkshire. They do an excellent job, often in the Yorkshire and York. The strategic health authority tells most trying circumstances, and he is right that the NHS me that the local PCT has had a problematic financial is a national treasure. Our White Paper reforms are, first history stretching back many years, which may be an and foremost, about freeing those hard-working understatement. [Interruption.] I can see colleagues professionals from the bureaucracy that stands in the nodding. way of good patient care. We will be cutting management costs by a third, Over the past 12 months, its situation has deteriorated moving decisions closer to patients through new GP due to a number of factors, including a significant consortia and giving local councils more responsibility overspend on community services and the fact that its for the health of their communities. All those will help QIPP programme has not delivered the expected savings. to create a more flexible, efficient, interconnected and As a result, the trust is having to take radical steps to accountable health service. put its finances in order, including temporary reductions to some non-urgent health services. I very much regret We are now entering a transition to the new system, that. which brings its own challenges for all parts of the NHS. The descriptions that my hon. Friend has given of I regret that the fragility of the organisation has circumstances in his constituency demonstrate the challenge placed my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer’s that is exacerbated by the fragile state of the local NHS constituents in a position where they face these service finances. The Government have inherited that fragility changes. I hope he will understand that it is not for me and they will have to address it. to give a running commentary on every aspect of what the PCT is doing. On the issues that he highlights— I understand from the strategic health authority that particularly about the QIPP programme implementation, the North Yorkshire and York PCT is likely to end the which I have looked at carefully—there are lessons for year with a significant deficit unless it takes drastic how we ensure that we get a proper grip on financial action of the sort that my hon. Friend has described, management in local NHS organisations. and to which others have referred in this debate. That process clearly involves some tough decisions, which It is striking, for instance, that the neighbouring will have a distressing impact on his constituents, and I PCTs with similar populations to North Yorkshire’s will return to those in a moment. I want to answer his and York’s are not facing the same financial challenge, concerns about funding allocations for the NHS in this nor are they having to resort to the desperate actions part of the country. that the trust is taking. My hon. Friend is right to say 339WH Health Care (North Yorkshire and 1 DECEMBER 2010 Health Care (North Yorkshire and 340WH York) York) [Paul Burstow] However, I believe that the PCT understands that its decision has affected a significant number of patients that the trust should not seek excuses in how the funding with chronic back pain, and that it has written to a formula works. None the less, we need to look at the number of those patients, commissioned a series of formula. initiative clinics where patients are fully assessed and Equally, it is important to bear in mind that the QIPP given new treatment options to manage their pain. programme in North Yorkshire and York has not delivered. I understand that it set some ambitious and challenging Nigel Adams: Just on that point, it is worth remarking plans; the problem was that the implementation has not that the reason given by the PCT for the withdrawal of been as robust as the plans. I understand that one issue the procedure is not a financial one, which is very appears to be a failure to bring on board the full range difficult for colleagues to comprehend. Apparently, it is of stakeholders to deliver on the improvement plans. based on medical advice via the NICE guidelines, but That is a significant failing, because where the PCT is the PCT seems to be the only one in the country that doing that, the signs are extremely positive. For instance, has adopted that stance. Does the Minister agree that local GPs are working with the trust on prescribing that sort of logic is a perfect reason why our reforms practices—together they are looking to cut costs by must come through in terms of GP commissioning, so more than £1 million, while protecting quality and that decisions can be made by health professionals service. I highlight that because it shows the power of rather than bureaucrats? GPs in managing efficiencies, and is a sign of how our reforms will help in the future. Paul Burstow: There is no doubt in my mind that getting clinicians far more engaged in commissioning Perhaps most troubling of all is the fact that the PCT will be a key driver to a significant improvement in has slammed the brakes on funding for the voluntary quality and outcomes in the system in future. I certainly sector in a way that may have serious consequences for undertake to ensure that we have a proper look at this the future. The PCT may, technically, be within its issue of the guidance, and I will come back to both the rights to give the minimum of notice to providers, but hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend, the hon. Member pulling the plug on small organisations with just a for York Outer, on that point. month’s notice—or in some cases, less—is alien to the spirit of collaboration and partnership that we want I certainly share the belief that those reforms are the NHS to cultivate. As my hon. Friend the Member needed to ensure that the NHS in north Yorkshire, and for Skipton and Ripon said, it seems to be against the Yorkshire in general, moves in the positive direction notion of the compact. that we all want to see it move in. Our proposals will bring the right leadership and purpose to sustain and There is an important general point here. As we move improve the services that the constituents of the hon. through transition there will be difficult choices, and Member for York Outer, and those of the other hon. the NHS needs to be clear about what it needs to Members who have come to support him in this debate, protect and how best to maintain vital voluntary community expect the NHS to deliver. services. Therefore, in response to this debate, I have asked the NHS chief executive, Sir David Nicholson, to Decisions that are made much closer to the patient consider how to ensure that local NHS organisations will ensure that health care is shaped in the best interests act responsibly towards voluntary sector organisations of the community and the general population. By during any period of retrenchment. My hon. Friend is introducing greater transparency and democratic right: we need candour and early discussion. Discussions accountability, we will ensure that the local NHS is far about where there are cost pressures are in the system, more answerable to the people whom it serves and that because, given the opportunity, the voluntary sector can there will be much more scrutiny and community contribute to managing them. involvement in the decisions that it takes. That is something that I am sure all hon. Members Reference has been made to the issues of pain relief want to see. It is how we can move our NHS forward, injections and of treating chronic back pain. The hon. maintaining it as a national treasure but one that really Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) asked a delivers the best possible outcomes—outcomes that are question about the discussions that he has had with the among the best in the world. That is what we really Secretary of State, as did the hon. Gentleman who want to see. secured this debate. I am not cited in regard to those discussions, but I will undertake to ensure that we look Question put and agreed to. very carefully at the issue and come back to both hon. Members who raised it, to satisfy them and ourselves 5.27 pm that NICE guidance is being followed properly. Sitting adjourned. 73WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 74WS

The questions tabled for discussion range from how Written Ministerial spectrum management contributes to economic growth through issues related to a proposed inventory of spectrum Statements in the EU to the deadlines related to the release of certain spectrum. As efficient spectrum management is a key component Wednesday 1 December 2010 of the Coalition’s broadband strategy, the main points of my intervention, taking into account the questions posed, will be: TREASURY to broadly welcome the proposals from the Commission which we do indeed think are important in terms of economic growth within the EU and for the development of mobile Fair Pay in the Public Sector broadband services; to welcome the breadth of the proposal but to caution any legislation mandating the use of spectrum for particular The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr ): social or community purposes; Will Hutton has today published the interim report of to welcome the approach by Commission of ensuring that his review of Fair Pay in the Public Sector. The Government spectrum for mobile broadband is made available as early as possible but caution on the imposition of rigid timelines that welcome the publication of this report and will give may not be realistic or match national circumstances; and careful consideration to the findings so far. The Government to wish the Hungarian presidency well in their deliberations look forward to the outcome of the final report in on this important dossier with a hope that we might see an March and will respond in more detail once they are in agreement before the summer of next year. receipt of this. 2. Proposal for a Regulation amending Regulation (EC) The report is available in the Vote Office and in the No 460/2004 establishing the European Network and Printed Paper Office and it has been deposited in the Information Security Agency (ENISA) as regards its Libraries of both Houses. duration—A Progress Report Periodic updates of the review’s work will be made Proposal for a Regulation concerning the European Network available through the website located at: http://www.hm- and Information Security Agency (ENISA)—A Progress treasury.gov.uk/indreview_willhutton_fairpay_tor.htm. Report These two items are progress reports from the Commission on the current status of the above two BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS recently issued documents. (EM 14322/10) The first progress report covers the proposal to amend the existing regulation, which established ENISA, in Telecoms Council order to extend its duration for 18 months. (The purpose of the extension is to allow the continued operation of ENISA under its current remit whilst the new regulation The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, is negotiated). Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Iam pleased to confirm the agenda items for which BIS has The second progress report covers the new regulation responsibility at the forthcoming Telecommunications that renews and updates the mandate of ENISA. Council in Brussels on 3 December 2010. I intend to As these items are progress reports and it is anticipated represent the UK at this Council. that no debate will take place, I am not planning an There are four substantive agenda items: active intervention. However, should there be a debate; 1. Proposal for a decision of the my intervention will reaffirm Her Majesty’s Government’s and of the Council establishing the first Radio Spectrum (HMG) current policies that are detailed in the relevant Policy Programme (RSPP): A Progress Report and EM noted above. Exchange of Views. 3. Cross-fertilisation between the Europe 2020 flagship This item is an exchange of views on the presidency initiatives “ADigital Agenda for Europe” and “Innovation report and questions for the discussion in relation to the Union”—Adoption of Council Conclusions Commission’s proposed RSPP (EM 13872/10). This is a This item covers the adoption of the above Council proposal for draft legislation which codifies policy and conclusions. These conclusions are member states’ views legislative actions necessary for the efficient management on the synergies between two of the EU Commission of spectrum in the EU up to 2015. flagship agendas, namely the Innovation Union (EM14035/ The RSPP is seen by the Commission as a necessary 10) and the European Digital Agenda (EM 9981/10). key contributor towards broadband targets, especially Thus, the conclusions contain elements of both flagship for those geographically rural and remote areas that agendas, including stressing the need for accelerating would rely on wireless technology to receive broadband the roll out of high-speed broadband which will help services. This view is generally shared by the Council drive innovation, as well as recognising the importance and the European Parliament. It follows on from of increasing EU spend on ICT research and development. the agreements reached on spectrum during the In the main, HMG welcomes these conclusions, and I communications framework review. intend to make the following comments: Progress had been made in debating the draft legislation welcome the adoption of these conclusions and pleased to in the Council but the European Parliament is yet to see joined up thinking in linking together these two critical start deliberations. flagship agendas; 75WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 76WS

pleased to see that these conclusions recognise the importance B. Internet Governance Forum (IGF)—Briefing by the of digital technologies as one of the key economic drivers Commission and the Presidency. for Europe’s future prosperity; I do not plan an intervention on this item but if the welcome the emphasis on the re-use of public sector data as opportunity arises, I will reaffirm HMG’s policy lines a potential driver of private-sector led innovation; and that: welcome the “active and healthy ageing” EIP pilot that will supports the multi-stakeholder approach on internet governance; be jointly developed by DG-INFSO and DG-SANCO (the latter being the part of the Commission that deals with welcomes the agreements reached at the recent ITU health issues). plenipotentiary; and anticipates a positive outcome to a vote in the UN General 4. European Broadband: investing in digitally driven growth— Assembly later in December to extend the mandate of the Adoption of Council conclusions IGF for another five years. The last substantive item on the agenda is the adoption C. The next presidency’ programme and events—Briefing of the Council conclusions that specifically cover the by the Hungarian delegation European broadband strategy (EM 13874/10). This strategy This item is a presentation from the Hungarian delegation is another component of the Commission’s “Broadband on their plans once they assume the presidency of the Package”. EU (1 January 2011 to 30 June 2011). The importance of broadband roll-out is noted under I do not plan an intervention for this item but you item 1 above and I plan to make the following interventions may wish to note that my officials are in the final stages during the planned discussion on these conclusions: of planning a bilateral meeting with Hungarian officials HMG welcomes the adoption of these conclusions and hope so that we are able to capitalise upon any opportunities that they will be taken note of by member states and the that may be presented by Hungary assuming the presidency. Commission to aid them in the rollout of super-fast broadband; The UK recognises the value of these conclusions and will shortly publish a UK-wide broadband strategy, detailing HMG’s plan to ensure every UK citizen is able to access COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT broadband; and The EU broadband objectives are challenging, but by working together, and alongside the private sector, we can achieve London Reforms and the Localism Bill them. I will inform the House of the outcome of the discussion on this, and the preceding item in my post-Council The Secretary of State for Communities and Local statement. Government (Mr Eric Pickles): I am today announcing a new settlement for London which includes a package This concludes the formal substantive business items of measures to be included in the forthcoming localism for Council. However, there are three items that are Bill. covered by “Any Other Business”. These far reaching proposals include measures which They are: will significantly devolve power to the Greater London A. A report on the state of development of roaming Authority, London boroughs and beyond and they will services within the European Union—Presentation by the streamline the plethora of agencies in London’s public Commission. sector landscape. They are based on proposals put forward by the Mayor and London boroughs themselves. This item will be coupled with a discussion over We have listened to key players in the capital and lunch preceding the Council. These items will be centred responded to their ideas. around the Commission’s recent Interim Report on the State of the Roaming Market (EM11711/10) The measures include: The devolution of executive powers over housing investment During the lunch, Ministers have been asked to consider from the Homes and Communities Agency to the GLA so and discuss three questions. In summary they cover that there is more decentralised control over housing investment issues relating to stimulating competition, the impact of decisions in the capital. technological change and the introduction of a price The abolition of the London Development Agency, with its cap on the retail price of data while roaming. city-wide roles on regeneration and management of European During my lunch time discussion and any debate funding to be transferred to the GLA so that the mayor is directly accountable. following the presentation from the Commission, I intend to make the following points: New powers for the Mayor of London to create Mayoral Development Corporations to focus regeneration where it is we look forward to proposals from the Commission on how needed most, such as to help secure East London’s Olympic they intend to deal with the roaming issue when the current legacy, in partnership with London boroughs. regulation expires in June 2012; London boroughs will be given greater control over key local we fully support the call by the Commissioner for a functioning planning decisions that affect their local communities. The single market in mobile roaming services; especially with mayor will only consider the largest planning applications in respect to data (which is of increasing importance for EU future. citizens); and A more streamlined approach to mayoral strategies and we would welcome high-level but detailed discussions between increased powers of scrutiny for the London Assembly over all interested parties on this issue to try—possibly using the these strategies, including the power to reject final strategies same format as the recent meeting on net neutrality—and by a two thirds majority. find a way forward that benefits consumers but also does not A new requirement for the GLA Group to publish details of undermine competition, investment or innovation in the all expenditure over £500 and openness rules will be extended mobile sector. to Transport for London. 77WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 78WS

These reforms will drive decision making back into a renewed focus on accuracy to the administration of the hands of the mayor and locally elected London the scheme so that legacy issues are addressed once and leaders, streamlining the way London is run and paving for all and the agency is then able to deliver a better the way for further devolution to London boroughs. quality of service to farmers in the medium term. Equally, we need to ensure taxpayers, interests are CABINET OFFICE safeguarded by ensuring our actions represent good value for money and further discussions will take place Diamond Jubilee Civic Honours Competitions with the National Audit Office to that end. As we progress through the payment window, I will keep the House informed on the agency’s progress towards The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark its targets and any related decisions by the RPA oversight Harper): I am pleased to announce that the Government board. At an individual level, the RPA are writing to are today launching UK-wide competitions for a grant farmers where it appears unlikely that payment will be of city status and a grant of Lord Mayoralty (or Lord made during the course of December. Provostship) to mark Her Majesty the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee in 2012. Local authorities throughout the United Kingdom who believe that their district, borough, town HEALTH or city deserves consideration for either of these rare honours are invited to apply by the closing date of Stem Cell Transplant Services 27 May 2011. Entry guidelines have been posted on the Diamond The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Jubilee section of the Department for Culture, Media (Anne Milton): As part of the Government’s desire to and Sport’s website, www.culture.gov.uk. Copies have see improved services for NHS patients, the Department also been placed in the Libraries of both Houses, the asked the NHS Blood and Transplant Authority to lead Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office. The document a review of stem cell transplant services. provides guidance on the contents of applications, as was the case for the competitions held for Her Majesty’s The authority duly established the UK Stem Cell Golden Jubilee, as well as full details on the submission Strategic Forum, an advisory group of national and of entries. international experts, service providers, clinicians, patients and charities which has now reported on its findings. In addition, for the first time in such competitions, The report, “The Future of Unrelated Donor Stem Cell the entry guidelines specify a standard format for entries. Transplantation in the UK”, contains 20 recommendations Local authorities are urged to use the standard format, on how we can better deliver this type of stem cell which is intended to limit the costs of entering the technology for the benefit of NHS patients. competition and to introduce a fair basis for comparison between entries. The Department welcomes the report. We will now begin work, in collaboration with the NHS, NHS Blood The honours will, however, continue to be rare marks and Transplant and the Anthony Nolan Trust to develop of distinction conferred, on ministerial advice, under improved partnership working and consider how the the royal prerogative, rather than rights to be earned by findings and recommendations in the report can be best the meeting of specific criteria. All valid entries will translated into real service improvements. receive individual consideration on their merits and the Government look forward to announcing the results of A copy of the report has been placed in the Library the competitions in the early months of 2012. and copies are available to hon. Members in the Vote Office.

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS HOME DEPARTMENT Single Payment Scheme Local Licensing Act The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): The Rural The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Payments Agency (RPA) will today begin payments Home Department (James Brokenshire): Today, alongside under the 2010 single payment scheme (SPS). Over the the publication of the Police Reform and Social next few days payments totalling over £1 billion are Responsibility Bill, we are publishing the Government’s expected to be made to some 80,000 claimants. This response to the Rebalancing the Licensing Act consultation represents over 75% of eligible claimants. which was conducted earlier this year and includes the Further progress towards the agency’s 2010 SPS payment full analysis of consultation responses. Our response targets—to pay 85% of eligible SPS claimants by the sets out which proposals we will be taking forward from end of December 2010 and to pay 95% of the value of the consultation document, and how; explains why we SPS payments by the end of March 2011—is being have decided not to proceed with some proposals; and closely monitored by the RPA oversight board which I outlines new proposals that we have introduced in response chair. Against the background of the additional workload to suggestions received during the consultation. created by the update last year to Rural Land Register The Government believe that local communities should and reduced staff numbers, it is clear that meeting those have a greater role in determining local licensing. The targets represents a significant challenge. package of measures that we are introducing through Farmers may be assured that outstanding payments the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill and will be made as individual claims are verified. But that the additional changes we will make through secondary will not mean cutting corners: I am determined to bring legislation and guidance will rebalance the Licensing 79WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 80WS

Act in favour of local communities, ensuring that local phasing out the National Policing Improvement Agency and residents’ views and concerns are heard and considered creating a powerful new National Crime Agency to lead the and they get the type of night-time economy they want. fight against organised crime and strengthen our border security. This will be supported by a clearer framework for The measures being introduced will also provide the local PCCs and their forces, set out in a new strategic police and licensing authorities with the tools they need policing requirement (in response to some of the feedback to more effectively address alcohol-related crime and we received during the consultation). disorder in the night-time economy.Tackling alcohol-related We have listened closely to what people have had to crime and disorder is not something that can just be say and our final proposals take this in to account. For done centrally. These measures will enable issues to be example, the Police Reform and Social Responsibility addressed at a local level, with local communities taking Bill that we are also publishing today provides more greater responsibility for tackling problems in their own detail on the powers and duties that PCCs and police areas. and crime panels will have and how PCCs will work The full Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill with their force and other local providers. is today being published on the Parliament website: The full Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill http://services.parliament.uk/bills/. The Government is published on the Parliament website. The Government response to the Rebalancing the Licensing Act consultation response to the “Policing in the 21st Century”consultation will be available on the Home Office website: http:// will be available on the Home Office website and will be www.homeoffice.gov.uk/drugs/alcohol/rebalancing- placed in the House Libraries. consultation and copies will be placed in the House Library. Justice and Home Affairs Pre-Council Statement

Policing in the 21st Century The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs ): The Justice and Home Affairs The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Council is due to be held on 2 and 3 December in Herbert): Today, alongside the publication of the Police Brussels. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State Reform and Social Responsibility Bill, we are publishing for Justice and I intend to attend on behalf of the the Government’s response to the “Policing in the United Kingdom. As the provisional agenda stands, the 21st Century” consultation, which set out the most following items will be discussed: radical reforms to policing in at least 50 years, putting The Council, beginning in Mixed Committee with the public at the heart of policing. Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Directly-elected Police and Crime Commissioners Schengen States), will receive an update from the presidency are central to our proposals to replace bureaucratic on the state of play of the Schengen Information System accountability with democratic accountability. The II (SIS II) project. Government are confident that Police and Crime Next there will be a discussion of the Commission Commissioners will make forces truly accountable to report on the implementation of the Council conclusions the communities they serve, ensuring that resources are on 29 measures for reinforcing the protection of the properly targeted to where they are needed and giving external borders and combating illegal immigration. the public a greater say in measures to reduce crime and The UK has not yet received a copy of the report; improve community safety. however, we expect that the Commission will use this We are also clear that the long held principle of item to inform member states of progress regarding operational independence, where those operating in the these measures. The measures include: Frontex working office of the constable are able to make independent arrangements; exchange of relevant information between decisions on how to use their legitimate coercive powers FRONTEX, other EU agencies and member states; on behalf of the state will continue to remain the development of the European Surveillance System— cornerstone of the British policing model. EUROSUR; exchange of information on illegal We received approximately 900 responses to the immigration, trafficking in human beings and falsification consultation and we are grateful to all those who responded. of documents; and solidarity and the integrated The response document we are publishing today summarises management of external borders by member states. the views that we received and sets out next steps in After Mixed Committee the Council will receive an implementing our reforms, which include: update from the presidency on the progress being made replacing existing police authorities with directly elected on asylum and legal and illegal migration and seek to Police and Crime ensure that the following four presidencies (Hungary, Commissioners (PCCs), who will hold forces to account and Poland, Cyprus and Denmark) remain on course to strengthen the bond between the police and the public; meet the Commission’s 2012 deadline for delivery of the new police and crime panels to provide important scrutiny Common European Asylum System (CEAS). The UK of PCC functions, with membership including both top-tier Government believe that the challenges that Europe and district councils—giving district councils formal involvement faces on asylum and illegal immigration are better in the governance of policing for the first time; addressed by practical co-operation than by further a framework of checks and balances to scrutinise PCCs and legislation. We do not consider the adoption of a common a more independent Inspectorate of Constabulary; EU asylum policy to be right for Britain. But we do strengthening professional discretion, cutting bureaucracy believe there are many issues in the area of asylum and and freeing up police officers’ time; migration on which all EU member states have much to greater collaboration between police forces to increase public gain by working together. We will be active in promoting protection and save money; and effective cooperation, and will consider participation in 81WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 82WS legislative proposals on their merits in consultation with carriers flying to those third countries. It will also help our European partners and relevant EU institutions. ensure that, where appropriate, PNR data can be shared The Council will then receive updates from the quickly and securely with all necessary data protection Commission on the Mediterranean Office for Youth, safeguards in place. The Government are content with the Greek national action plan on asylum and migration the proposed negotiating mandates but has yet to take a and a legal migration conference held on 26 November. decision on whether or not to opt in. The Government The Mediterranean Office for Youth supports circular strongly believe that early publication of an EU PNR migration for educational purposes. The UK is not a Directive covering intra-EU as well as external flights is participant in the Mediterranean Office for Youth,which vital to the safety and security of EU citizens. is restricted to members of the Union for the Next the EU CT co-ordinator will present a discussion Mediterranean. The UK considers the Greek national paper to Council on an EU CT strategy which covers action plan on asylum and migration (the “Greek Action transport security, terrorist travel, cyber threats, the Plan”) to be key in increasing the ability of Greece to external dimension of CT and fighting discrimination act as an efficient partner in countering illegal migration. and social marginalisation of Muslims. Alongside other EU member states we have offered The UK welcomes the paper as a useful starting practical assistance to Greece, however we would like to point for further policy discussions. The EU CT see the establishment of an effective Commission-led co-ordinator will also provide an update on progress process to ensure co-ordination and prioritisation; avoid against the EU action plan on combating terrorism to duplication of member states’actions; ensure the availability date. of clear, accessible funding streams to support the The presidency will seek agreement on a paper on a action plan; and the setting of clear timescales for system for sharing information on terrorist threat levels action and milestones for progress. The presidency will in the member states. The UK supports improvements also present their conclusions following the conference to the information sharing mechanisms on terrorist on legal migration. threat levels at the EU level while maintaining that Over lunch Interior Ministers will be asked to agree a changes to threat levels remain a member state competence. regulation to create an agency for large-scale IT systems The Council will also be asked to reach agreement on in the JHA field. This would be accompanied by a a paper recommending proposals to strengthen aviation Council decision ensuring full UK participation in the security following the incident at East Midlands airport. agency, which was a Government priority as the agency This paper will go jointly to the Transport and JHA will manage a number of existing systems in which we Councils on 02 December for agreement. The UK participate (Eurodac and the second generation of the welcomes this report and will press for early, effective Schengen Information System). While the Government and co-ordinated action. are content with the text as drafted some member states Commissioner Malmström will present her EU Internal have maintained reserves which will need to be resolved Security Communication, which looks to translate the before the Council, in particular concerning the location Council’s EU internal security strategy into action points of the agency. Also during lunch Ministers will discuss and will seek initial views from member states. The text alternatives to detaining children for immigration purposes. was published on 23 November. The Government are The UK Government are committed to ending the therefore considering the detail of what is proposed and detention of children in the UK and a review is currently will set out their initial views at the Council. underway to consider how this can be done in a way On the justice day, the Council will be asked to agree which protects the welfare of children and ensures that the text of the EU directive on human trafficking. In families leave when they have no right to be in the UK. June, the Government made a decision not to opt in to This will be an opportunity to share experience and the directive, but to review its position after adoption, ideas with other member states who are also dealing at which point the UK could apply to opt in retrospectively. with this difficult issue. The directive is in its final stages of negotiation; there After lunch, the Commission will present their draft is a qualified majority in the Council and should the action plan on combating heavy arms trafficking. Should European Parliament also agree the text in December this plan be endorsed during this Council, the EU will adoption will follow. have an integrated approach to combating arms trafficking, The presidency will then seek a general approach on and more particularly heavy fire arms. the draft directive on combating sexual exploitation Next the presidency will present for agreement Council and abuse of children and child pornography. This draft conclusions on itinerant gangs which seek to define the directive aims to update existing EU legislation in the problem of itinerant crime groups and agree an area of combating child sexual exploitation and administrative approach to tackle the problem, including pornography in line with technological developments increased cross-border co-operation. The Council will such as the use of webcams to bully children into sexual also be asked to agree draft Council conclusions on posing (a pornographic performance). The Government preventing and combating identity related crimes and are seeking scrutiny clearance to enable the UK to on identity management. support the presidency in reaching a general approach. The Council will be asked to agree negotiating mandates There will be a state of play report on the European which will authorise the start of negotiations between Investigation Order (EIO), which is a draft directive the EU and the United States, Canada, and Australia aimed at streamlining the system of mutual legal assistance for the transfer and use of passenger name records between participating EU member states. The presidency (PNR) to prevent and combat terrorism and other will report progress on negotiations but is not expected forms of serious cross-border crime. Clear PNR agreements to seek agreement on any issues at this time. The between the EU and Australia, Canada and the US will Government will take the opportunity to press for play a vital role in removing legal uncertainty for air further detailed work on the grounds for refusing assistance. 83WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 84WS

The presidency will also seek a general approach on The presidency will seek agreement to the adoption the right to information in criminal proceedings. This is of a negotiating mandate for an EU-US Agreement on the second measure in the roadmap to strengthen procedural data protection. The agreement would clarify data rights in criminal proceedings. It aims to set common protection safeguards for the transatlantic exchange of minimum standards and improve the rights of suspects personal data for law enforcement purposes. and accused persons by ensuring that they receive Ministers will then be provided an information point information about their rights. The presidency has taken on the outcomes of and proposed follow up to the on board the Government’s concerns in relation to EU-Russia Permanent Partnership Council (PPC) (freedom, article 7 of the draft directive. The Government are security and justice) (18-19 November), and the Western seeking scrutiny clearance to enable it to agree to the Balkans Ministerial Forum (23-24 November). The PPC general approach. agreed steps forward on visa liberalisation (the top The presidency will then seek agreement among priority for Russia). They agreed to work on a list of participating member states on the regulation implementing common steps towards negotiations on an EU-Russia enhanced cooperation in the field of law applicable to visa waiver agreement. This does not directly affect the divorce—Rome III. The European Parliament will adopt UK as we are not part of the Schengen visa arrangements. its opinion by the end of the year. The UK is not The UK did not attend the Western Balkans Ministerial participating in this measure. Forum. Ministers will be updated at the JHA Council. The presidency held a seminar on 14 October to Ministers will then be presented with a report on the discuss issues around resolving child abduction disputes activities of the e-justice working party during the by mediation. At the end of the seminar the presidency Belgian presidency. The main focus of this work so far produced conclusions aimed at encouraging EU law has been the development of a European e-justice portal makers and member states to consider promoting mediation which is a website (launched at the July Informal JUA. in such cases. The presidency is seeking agreement to Council) that acts as a point of access to a range of these conclusions at the Council. information on justice matters across the EU. There will be a discussion on the Commission’s Over lunch, there will be a discussion about the communication on “Acomprehensive approach on personal forthcoming directive, access to a lawyer. This is the data protection in the European Union”. The third measure on the roadmap to strengthening criminal Communication is intended to serve as a basis for procedural rights, which is likely to be published in June further discussions between the Commission, other 2011. The Commission is still in the early stages of European institutions and interested parties with a view drafting the proposal. It is considering provisions on to developing a new data protection legislative framework. the right to waiver legal advice, consequences of violations, It is anticipated that the Commission will publish a the competence and quality of lawyers and provisions legislative proposal in mid-2011. for European arrest warrant proceedings. 799W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 800W

where the Department for International Development Written Answers to (DFID) has supported national HIV prevention programmes. Questions DFID is reviewing all its bilateral and multilateral aid programmes to ensure UK aid is effective, represents value for money for the UK taxpayer and accelerate Wednesday 1 December 2010 progress towards the millennium development goals. As set out in DFID’s business plan 2011-15, we will specify our objectives on restricting the spread of diseases like TB, HIV, and malaria by May 2011. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT EU Law Departmental Sponsorship Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for International Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how many EU directives are pending Development what expenditure his Department incurred transposition into domestic legislation by his Department; on sponsorship in each year since 1997 for which figures and what estimate he has made of the cost of each such are available. [27524] transposition. [27507] Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Mr O’Brien: There are currently no EU directives Development (DFID) is not able to provide details of waiting to be transposed into domestic legislation by expenditure which may have been incurred on sponsorship the Department. without incurring a disproportionate cost. Developing Countries: Education Football: South Africa

Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development whether the needs of disabled International Development how much his Department people informed the ministerial review of his Department’s spent on entertainment activities related to the 2010 Education Strategy 2010-15; and what steps his Department FIFA World Cup. [27360] plans to take to ensure such needs inform any further such review. [27555] Mr Duncan: The Department for International Development (DFID) spent no money on entertainment Mr O’Brien: The Department for International relating to the activities of the 2010 FIFA World Cup. Development (DFID) published its Learning for All Education Strategy in March 2010. The strategy recognised Trade Unions: Finance that disability is a major factor in excluding children from school and the importance of reaching those Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for International currently marginalised if the education millennium Development how much his Department has given to development goals and Education for All goals are to trade unions in the UK and overseas through (a) the be achieved. Civil Society Challenge Fund, (b) the UK Trades Union DFID recently published a guidance note on supporting Congress Strategic Grant Agreement, (c) the Strategic access to education for children with disabilities, “Education Framework Partnership Agreement, (d) the partnership for Children with Disabilities—Improving Access and programme agreements, (e) the Development Awareness Quality”, which is available on the DFID website. This Fund and (f) other programmes in each of the last note has been used by country teams during the bilateral three years; which trade unions received such funds; aid review, which will inform our ongoing policy, including and for what reason the award was made in each case. that on education for children with disabilities. [27381] Developing Countries: HIV Infection Mr Andrew Mitchell: I will arrange for the requested information to be placed in the Library of the House. Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department for International Development (DFID) International Development what recent assessment he is reviewing all of its aid programmes including aid has made of the effectiveness of his Department’s channelled through trade unions, to ensure that it makes programmes in reducing the global incidence of a real difference to the world’s poorest people. HIV/AIDS; what plans he has for the future of such programmes; and if he will make a statement. [27747]

Mr O’Brien: Figures from the UNAIDS Report on ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS The Global Aids Epidemic 2010 demonstrate steady progress in the reduction of HIV incidence. In 33 countries, Agricultural Wages Order of which 22 are in Sub-Saharan Africa, HIV incidence has fallen by more than 25% between 2001 and 2009. In Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, the countries most severely effected by the epidemic in Food and Rural Affairs (1) how many grants of widow’s Sub-Saharan Africa—Ethiopia, Nigeria, South Africa, or widower’s bereavement allowances were made under Zambia and Zimbabwe—incidence have either stabilised the Agricultural Wages Order in each of the last five or are showing signs of decline. These are all countries financial years; [27417] 801W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 802W

(2) what the average sum payable as a grant of Thousand tonnes of oil equivalent widow’s or widower’s bereavement allowance under the Agricultural Wages Order was in each of the last five 2007 2008 2009 financial years. [27418] Wood for energy 332 359 375 purposes Mr Paice: The Agricultural Wages Order provides Waste wood for 101 162 165 agricultural workers with an entitlement to paid energy purposes bereavement leave on the death of a close relative, Additionally, the publication contains the following including a spouse or civil partner. However, it does not estimates of straw, short rotation coppice, and other include provision for the payment of a lump sum grant plant based biomass imported for energy purposes: in addition to this. The Government do not keep records of the amount Thousand tonnes of oil equivalent of bereavement leave taken by agricultural workers. 2007 2008 2009 Therefore, it is not possible to provide details of the average amount of bereavement leave pay received in Total imports of straw, short rotation coppice 378 416 415 each of the past five years. and other plant-based biomass for energy purposes Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) how many grants of dog British Waterways allowances were made under the Agricultural Wages Order in each of the last five financial years; [27419] Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what the average sum payable as a grant of dog Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent allowances under the Agricultural Wages Order was in discussions she has had on the future of British each of the last five financial years. [27421] Waterways. [25906]

Mr Paice: The dog allowance is a weekly amount Richard Benyon: On 14 October, the Government added to the minimum rate for a worker whose employer announced that British Waterways will move from being requires them to keep a dog or dogs. The allowance is a public corporation to a charitable body within civil paid in respect of each dog. society from April 2012. Government’s intention is to The Government does not have information on the issue a full public consultation on the scope and model number of allowances paid to workers required to keep of the new waterways charity early in 2011. Key a dog or dogs for the better performance of their work. stakeholders will continue to be kept closely involved Nor is it possible to state what the average sum payable through ongoing discussions, workshops and meetings to such workers was in each of the last five financial with myself and DEFRA officials. years. The level of the weekly dog allowance payable to a Carbon Emissions: Businesses worker required to keep a dog or dogs in each of the last five years was as follows: Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she plans £ to introduce mandatory reporting of carbon emissions by UK-listed companies. [27113] 2010 7.21 2009 7.01 : To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 6.86 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy is 2007 6.58 on the introduction of mandatory carbon reporting for 2006 6.30 businesses under section 85 of the Climate Change Act Note: 2008. [26349] All allowances are effective from 1 October of the relevant year. Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State Biofuels for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will assess the merits of introducing mandatory reporting of Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for carbon dioxide emissions by listed UK companies; and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much wood if she will make a statement. [27200] was imported for burning as biomass fuel in (a) 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009. [27552] Mr Paice: I refer the hon. Member and my hon. Friends to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Gregory Barker: I have been asked to reply. Hartlepool (Mr Wright) on 27 October 2010, Official Information collated by HM Revenue and Customs Report, column 319W. as part of its statistics on overseas trade do not indicate the final use for imported wood. Common Agricultural Policy The 2010 edition of the Digest of UK Energy Statistics contains estimates of the total quantities of wood and Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for waste wood that were used for energy purposes during Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent 2007, 2008 and 2009. Copies of this publication are assessment she has made of the effect on UK food available in the House Library. The publication shows security of the operation of the Common Agricultural the following information: Policy. [20736] 803W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 804W

Mr Paice: The best guarantors of UK food security, May 2010; on what date each such review (a) was as detailed in DEFRA’s UK food security assessment, announced and (b) is expected to publish its findings; are an open trading system with other countries, and what estimate she has made of the cost of each such farmers at home and overseas being able to respond to review; who has been appointed to lead each such market price signals. We believe that there needs to be review; to what remuneration each review leader is reform of the Common Agricultural Policy to facilitate entitled; how many (i) full-time equivalent civil servants this. and (ii) seconded staff are working on each such review; from which organisations such staff have been seconded; Departmental Policy and how much on average such seconded staff will be paid for their work on the review. [21883] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what departmental Richard Benyon: The information requested is set out policy reviews her Department has undertaken since 6 in the following table.

Review of national park Animal Welfare Animal welfare Task force on governance Ofwat review Waste review Act inspections farm regulation arrangements

Announcement 26 August 2010 15 June 2010 June 2010 1 May 2010 9 June 2010 A full public date (reconfirmed consultation was earlier decision launched on taken by 9 November previous 2010 Administration)

Publication date Spring/summer May 2011 Command Paper 1 May 2011 April 2011 A Ministerial 2011 to publish in announcement December 2010. on the EFRA consultation Parliamentary outcome, Select proposals for Committee to changes to the consider its governance findings. arrangements andwaysof improving accountability will be made by the end of March 2011.

Estimated cost £55,000 not Undertaken by Undertaken by Undertaken by £35,000 (not Undertaken by including staff civil servants in civil servants in civil servants in including staff civil servants in costs the course of the course of the course of costs) the course of normal duties normal duties normal duties normal duties

Appointed David Gray. n/a n/a n/a Richard n/a reviewer and £50,000 plus Macdonald. remuneration expenses. Daily rate £300 and entitled to reasonable expenses. Estimated input 80 days.

Number of civil 2.2 full-time 4 full-time 5 full-time 4.6 full-time 6 full-time 2 civil servants servants working employees employees employees employees employees but with on the review significant input from the national park authorities.

Number of None 1 part time None None None None secondees (2 days per week) workingonthe review 805W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 806W

Review of national park Animal Welfare Animal welfare Task force on governance Ofwat review Waste review Act inspections farm regulation arrangements

Secondees home n/a Waste and n/a n/a n/a n/a organisation Resources Action Programme (WRAP)

Secondees pay n/a On loan from n/a n/a n/a n/a rates WRAP

Farming Futures: Finance Mr Paice [holding answer 29 November 2010]: The details of the Government’s policy on GM crops are Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, currently under consideration, but all policies will be Food and Rural Affairs how much funding Farming based on robust scientific evidence. Futures received from her Department in each of the last four years; and how much funding she plans to allocate to Farming Futures in each of the next four National Parks years. [27031]

Mr Paice: Farming Futures was set up in 2007 to : To ask the Secretary of State for build greater awareness and provide advice to farmers Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what visits on on the impacts of climate change and actions they can what dates for what purposes (a) she and (b) other take to deal with this, to increase efficiency, profitability Ministers in her Department have made to (i) national and competiveness. DEFRA has provided Farming Futures parks and (ii) national nature reserves since 11 May with core funding of over £850,000 covering a four year 2010. [26156] period: Richard Benyon [holding answer 24 November 2010]: £ I have expressed a keen interest in visiting all of the 2007-08 171,000 English national parks to see at first hand the valuable 2008-09 250,000 work being undertaken. So far I have been to 2009-10 150,000 Northumberland national park on 15 June and the 2010-11 285,000 Peak District national park on 27 July. During my visit to Northumberland national park I DEFRA funding for Farming Futures was a substantial, also went to Greenlee Lough national nature reserve to time-limited contribution to allow them to establish see how national park and national nature reserve themselves in playing a central role in supporting the designations can work together. industry’s action on climate change, whilst they sought alternative long-term funding. After four years, DEFRA’s Other national nature reserves I visited are Holme financial support will come to an end in March 2011. Fen and Woodwalton Fen on 10 November as part of the Great Fen project which is designed to link up the Genetically Modified Organisms land between the two nature reserves.

Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for I was also able to see Leigh Woods national nature Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether the reserve from the Avon Gorge site of special scientific opinion of the Council of Ministers on the proposal to interest which I visited on 19 July. amend the GMO Deliberate Release Directive 2001/18 The Minister of State, Department for Environment, by introducing a new article 26b has been received by Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member her Department; and if she will make a statement. for South East (Mr Paice) visited Dartmoor [26331] national park on 11 November to discuss uplands issues.

Mr Paice [holding answer 25 November 2010]: All The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department member states have received the opinion of the Council for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs the noble Legal Service on the proposal to amend Directive 2001/18. Lord, Lord Henley visited the Lake District national Opinions on this matter are also expected to be made park on 25 August regarding future changes needed to available soon from both the European Parliament and adapt to climate change. the Commission legal services. Following this, further The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and discussions will be held at EU level on the legal implications Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for of the Commission’s proposal. Meriden (Mrs Spelman) has met with key representatives from the English national parks authority association Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for and spoken with a number of people who have an Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy interest in national parks and national nature reserves. is on the commercial growing of genetically-modified We are currently putting together a programme of visits crops; and if she will make a statement. [26878] for 2011, which includes visits to our national parks. 807W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 808W

Salmon: Rivers effective and better targeted. I also refer the hon. Gentleman to the Welsh Assembly Government which administers Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for woodland grant schemes in Wales for information on its Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) whether her plans. Department has made an estimate of the number of salmon returning to the river (a) Test, (b) Itchen and (c) Avon in each of the past five years; and ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE if she will make a statement; [26235] (2) what assessment her Department has made of the Carbon Reduction Commitment Energy Efficiency future capacity of the river (a) Test, (b) Itchen and (c) Scheme Hampshire Avon to support viable stocks of migratory salmonoids; and if she will make a statement. [26236] Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what progress his Department Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency (EA) operates has made on inclusion of a proportion of electricity fish counters on the Rivers Test, Itchen and Hampshire generated from energy from waste in the Carbon Reduction Avon and uses these to derive annual estimates of the Commitment. [27286] number of salmon returning to each of these rivers. The following table shows the estimated number of salmon Gregory Barker: All electricity supply arrangements returning in each of the past five years, although such to a CRC participant which meet the CRC’s supply estimates have only been possible on the Hampshire criteria must be reported under the scheme, irrespective Avon since 2006. of how, where and by whom the electricity is generated. This ensures the scheme’s focus is on energy efficiency Hampshire measures. Test Itchen Avon CRC participants which operate an energy from waste 2005 1,117 411 n/a plant will also need to report their input fuel to the 2006 1,058 419 1,319 generational process, where that waste supply meets the 2007 664 301 1,135 CRC supply definitions. 2008 1,487 500 810 Departmental Contracts 2009 903 276 743 (provisional) Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for The EA estimates the Conservation Limits (CLs) for Energy and Climate Change what steps his Department salmon stocks in each of the 64 principal salmon rivers plans to take to encourage and support small and in England and Wales; including the Test, Itchen and medium-sized enterprises and third sector organisations Hampshire Avon. CLs are described as ‘the minimum to compete for departmental contracts in line with desirable spawning stock levels, below which stocks value-for-money policy, UK regulations and EU should not be allowed to fall’. The salmon stocks in the procurement directives. [28114] Rivers Test, Itchen and Hampshire Avon were all below their CLs in 2009, and are classified as being ‘At Risk’ Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and or ‘Probably at Risk’. They are also expected to remain Climate Change is following all the requirements of the in one of these categories until at least 2014. There are Transparency Agenda and openly advertising all no similar indicators of the status of other salmonid procurements above £10,000. species. In circumstances where an applicant is unsuccessful Stocks may still be sustainable at levels below their with their bid the Department provides full feedback to CL, but they are at greater risk. The EA and the Centre all companies as requested. for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science are investigating the significance of impacts on salmon Energy: Prices and will seek ways to manage the effects. An understanding of these key factors will be important in estimating the Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State future potential of these southern chalk streams for all for Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking salmonid species. to assist energy-intensive industries with rising energy prices. [27120] Woodland Grants Scheme Charles Hendry: In order to help UK energy intensive Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for industries, DECC is working closely with BIS, industry Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she representatives, academics and other experts on an Energy has for the future of the Woodland Grants Scheme Intensive Industry Strategy. The Strategy is assessing following the outcome of the comprehensive spending the impact of climate change and energy policies on the review; and if she will make a statement. [21955] cost of energy for these industries, greenhouse gas abatement opportunities within key energy intensive Mr Paice: Expenditure on the Rural Development sectors and is considering policy options where further programme for England will be maintained over the cost-effective abatement opportunities are not available spending review period. We will work with the Forestry in the short term. Commission to ensure the England Woodland Grant The Government also provide businesses with enhanced Scheme, which provides for the stewardship of existing tax relief for investments in equipment that meets published woodlands and the creation of new woodlands, is more energy-saving criteria via enhanced capital allowances. 809W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 810W

Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for TUC event central London—3 February 2009: Energy and Climate Change whether he plans to seek Sarah Veale; Dinah Cox; Councillors: Anwara Ali and Lurline additional data-sharing powers to enable people with a Champagnie. terminal illness automatically to receive assistance Glasgow—13 February 2009: from the mandatory social price support scheme. Former Councillor Neelam Bakshi; Angela O’Hagan; Councillor [27741] Paulette Hamilton; Loretta Mordi; Ann Henderson. Gregory Barker: Energy suppliers will be required Gloucester—19 February 2009: from April 2011 to provide greater help with the financial Former Councillor Carol Francis; Councillors: Barry Dare, costs of energy bills to more of the most vulnerable fuel Lorna Campbell and Lady Mavis Dunrossil; Parmjit Dhanda poor households—with total support of £250 million in MP. 2011-12 rising to £310 million in 2014-15. Newcastle—20 March 2009: We anticipate that data matching methods, similar to Former Councillor Thea Khamis; Councillors: David Faulkner those which were used successfully in the Energy Rebate and Lurline Champagnie; Baroness Sandip Verma; Ranjana Scheme, will be used to target the available assistance Bell. towards more of the most vulnerable households. Leicester—17 April 2009: We intend to consult on the detailed policy design, Councillors: Manjula Sood, Ross Willmott, Sarah Russell and including eligibility and targeting methods, shortly and Ramilla Shah; Sheila Lock CEO; Liz Reid-Jones; Anita Patel. would welcome views and input on these issues during that process. Camden—24 April 2009: Councillors: Maya de Souza, Keith Moffitt and Geethika Natural Gas Jayatilaka; Dame Jane Roberts; Simon Woolley. South London—21 May 2009: Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Councillors: Lorna Campbell; Nicholas Stanton, Eliza Mann, Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he Mimi Harker and Dora Dixon Fyle; Dawn Butler MP; Harriet has made of the level of reserves of shale gas in the Harman QC, MP and Minister for Women and Equalities. UK. [27752] Liverpool—29 May 2009: Charles Hendry: The British Geological Survey estimates Former Councillor Mia Jones; Councillors: Warren Bradley that there could be worthwhile shale gas resources in and Anna Rothery; Amina Ismail; MP and Deputy the UK. However it is not possible to make an estimate Minister for Women and Equalities. of reserves without drilling and production testing, and Chilterns, Maidenhead and Berkshire—26 June 2009: it is not yet clear that the success elsewhere can be Councillors: Mimi Harker, Humaira Khan, John Warder, Meral replicated in the UK. Ece, Denise Headley. Luton—17 July 2009: Councillors: Sherma Batson, Joan Bailey, Jacqui Burnett and WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Anjana Patel; Dr Nazia Khanum; Kate Belinis CEO. Black Asian and Minority Ethnic Women Councillors Bradford—22 July 2009: Taskforce: Expenditure Adeeba Malik; Councillors: Dale Smith, Naveeda Ikram and Alison Lowe; Marcia Churley. Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and Note: Equalities pursuant to the answer of 22 November This information is in the public domain through the BAME 2010, Official Report, columns 81-2W,on ethnic minorities, Women Councillors’ Taskforce report. The full report is available who the speakers were at each of the 16 events. [27469] at the following link: http://www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/ Lynne Featherstone: A total of 16 Black, Asian and Task%20Force%20Report%20Oct%202009.pdf Minority Ethnic (BAME) Women Councillors’ Taskforce events were held across Britain. The speakers at each of Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and the events were as follows: Equalities pursuant to the answer of 22 November Tower Hamlet—23 July 2008: 2010, Official Report, columns 81-82W,on ethnic minorities, Councillors: Dr Anwara AN, Shirley Marshall and Lurline how the (a) attendees and (b) delegates at each event Champagnie; Barbara Follett MP and Deputy Minister for were (i) invited and (ii) selected for invitation. [27471] Women; former Councillor Neelam Bakshi. Birmingham—17 October 2008: Lynne Featherstone: A total of 16 events were held Councillors: Salma Yaqoob, Karen Hamilton and Paulette across Britain reaching nearly 1,100 women. These events Hamilton; Francine Fernandes; Carol Coombes CEO. were promoted using a wide range of organisations. Harrow—21 November 2008: This included working closely with existing local equalities Councillors: Lurline Champagnie, Mimi Harker, Nana Asante group networks and political parties. and David Ashton. The Government Equalities Office (GEO) sent e-mails Swansea—12 December 2008: including the event details and also telephoned organisations Former Councillor Yvonne Jardine; Nia Griffith MP; Salma who helped to promote the events on behalf of the Abbasi; Mari Rees. GEO. These organisations included local women’s Islington—9 January 2009: organisations, equalities organisations, local authorities, Councillors: James Kempton, Jyoti Vaja, Anjana Patel, Ruth local political parties, strategic partners, local Libraries Polling, Berenice Vanier; Mouna Hamitouche. and business networks. 811W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 812W

Attendees signed up to attend the events online. The Mrs May [holding answer 16 November 2010]: Both selection of attendees was based on a first come first the police recorded crime statistics and the British Crime served basis where the numbers were dependent on the Survey provide an incomplete picture of crime. size of the venue. Statistics from the two sources are published annually in the Home Office statistical bulletin, Crime in England Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and and Wales, a copy of which is available in the House of Equalities pursuant to the answer of 22 November Commons Library. 2010, Official Report, columns 81-82W,on ethnic minorities, what steps she plans to take to evaluate the (a) outcome Homosexuality: Criminal Records and (b) value for money of each event. [27473]

Lynne Featherstone: Action has been taken to evaluate Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for the work of the Black, Asian Minority Ethnic (BAME) the Home Department if she will bring forward legislative Women Councillors’ taskforce and an evaluation report proposals to change requirements for the disclosure of will be published in the new year, with an executive historic convictions for homosexual intercourse for the summary.The report will assess the short- and longer-term purpose of preventing discrimination. [27241] impacts of the taskforce as a whole, and by each of the three strands of work covering the support and development Lynne Featherstone: As set out in the Home Office element of the programme, which are the outreach Business Plan, the Freedom Bill, to be introduced by events, the shadowing and mentoring scheme and the February 2011, will include provisions so that those community leadership course. who were prosecuted for consensual gay sex at a time The specific research objectives are: when this was illegal may apply to have their conviction 1. To identify and examine the outcomes and effectiveness of record deleted from police records and will no longer be the BAME taskforce required to disclose their conviction in any circumstances. 2. To identify the strengths and limitations of the BAME taskforce programme of work Immigration 3. To assess the value of the taskforce programme of work, including how to make this agenda sustainable in the longer term Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for 4. To follow-up and track participants’ progress in getting the Home Department what procedures are available to involved in political and public life. her to restrict the level of immigration from other EU member states. [26882]

Damian Green [holding answer 29 November 2010]: HOME DEPARTMENT The right to free movement is not unlimited; European Union (EU) and European Economic Area (EEA) nationals Aviation: Security must be exercising a Treaty right as a worker, a self-employed or self-sufficient person or a student if they wish to Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for the reside in the UK beyond three months. Home Department who informed (a) her and (b) the The EU Accession Treaties for countries that have Prime Minister of the discovery of a bomb on board a joined the EU since 2004 include a temporary derogation UPS courier aircraft at East Midlands airport; and that allows individual member states to restrict accession what the reasons were for the time taken to inform each workers’ access to the labour market for up to five years, Minister of that discovery. [22219] or up to seven years if justified on labour market grounds. This Government are committed to applying Mr Maude: I have been asked to reply. transitional controls on access to the UK labour market The Secretary of State for Transport, the right hon. as a matter of course in the future to all new EU Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond) member states. informed about an incident at East Midlands airport at Under transitional arrangements currently in place, 8.10 am on 29 October. In his capacity as Secretary of workers from the Central and Eastern European countries State for Transport he is routinely informed of incidents that acceded to the EU in 2004 must register their having the potential to disrupt air transport, even when employment in the UK within one month. This scheme no specific threat materialises. The Prime Minister, the must end by 30 April 2011. Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) Workers from Romania and Bulgaria, which acceded and the Minister of State for Security and Counter-terrorism to the EU on 1 January 2007, must seek authorisation (Baroness Neville-Jones) were all informed at lunchtime to work from the UK Border Agency and meet the on 29 October. required criteria. These restrictions will remain in force until 31 December 2011 and may be extended for a Crime further two years. Migration : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the change in overall crime levels has been between 1997 and the latest date for which figures Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the are available in terms of the methodology used in Home Department pursuant to the oral statement of collecting information for (a) police recorded crime 23 November 2010, Official Report, columns 169-71, and (b) the British Crime Survey. [24606] on controlling migration, what the minimum amount is 813W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 814W which any applicant must be able to deposit in a : The environmental impacts of biofuel UK-based financial institution prior to becoming production are included in the lifecycle assessment of eligible for an entrepreneur visa. [27758] biofuels awarded renewable transport fuel certificates (RTFCs). Damian Green: The minimum amount an applicant to the tier 1 (entrepreneur) route must have available to Biofuel producers who wish to claim RTFCs for the deposit in a UK-based financial institution is currently fuel they produce must register with the Renewable £200,000. We will announce details of the revised criteria Fuels Agency (RFA). In the 2009-10 reporting period for entrepreneurs in due course. 33 non-obligated biofuels producers were awarded RTFCs. The RFA quarterly reports list all biofuel producers Vetting awarded RTFCs during the reporting period, but do not distinguish between small and large suppliers. The Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for the volume of fuel supplied is commercially sensitive data. Home Department (1) what recent representations she The RFA requires fuel suppliers claiming RTFCs to has received from accredited guardianship organisations submit monthly reports on the lifecycle greenhouse gas on her Department’s review of the vetting and barring (GHG) saving and the sustainability of the biofuels regime; [27681] they supply. Summaries of the data supplied are published (2) what account she took of accredited guardianship in the RFA’s quarterly reports. In the 2009-10 reporting organisations in her Department’s review of the period all biofuels-only suppliers reported meeting a Independent Safeguarding Authority. [27684] qualifying environmental standard in 90% or more of the biofuel supplied and all reported on the fuel Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 30 November 2010]: characteristics (feedstock, country of origin, sustainability The review and remodelling of the Vetting and Barring and previous land use) for more than 95% of the fuel Scheme is still under way. Representations from various supplied, although in many cases environmental data organisations including those involved with the private were reported using RFA default values. and independent schools sector have been received, and will be taken into account as the review progresses. The RFA quarterly reports are available at: www.renewablefuelsagency.gov.uk

WALES East Midlands Airport: Security Grants Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales at what time on 29 October 2010 he was informed of the what grants have been awarded by her Department in security incident at East Midlands airport. [22480] (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11 to date; what grants she plans to award in each of the next two years; what the monetary value is of each such grant fund; and to Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. which organisations such grants have been made. The Secretary of State for Transport, my right hon. [27861] Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond) was informed about an incident at Mr David Jones: I refer the hon. Gentleman to East Midlands airport at 8.10am on Friday 29 October. my answer of 30 November 2010, Official Report, In his capacity as Secretary of State for Transport he is column 737W. routinely informed of incidents having the potential to disrupt air transport, even when no specific threat UN Food and Agriculture Organisation materialises. The Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) and the Minister what assessment she has made of the compliance of of State for Security and Counter-terrorism (Baroness her Department with the UN Food and Agriculture Neville-Jones) were all informed at lunchtime on Friday Organisation’s criteria for sourcing sustainable timber. 29 October. [27851] Mr David Jones: The Wales Office obtains its support services through the Ministry of Justice and comes Lake Windermere: Speed Limits under that Ministry’s sustainable development framework, where there is a requirement for all timber to be from Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport sustainable sources. what the speed limit is for motorised transportation across Lake Windermere in (a) miles per hour, (b) nautical miles per hour and (c) kilometres per hour. TRANSPORT [26475]

Biofuels : Speed limits for motorised transportation across Lake Windermere are a matter for the Lake Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport District National Park Authority (LDNPA). what assessment he has made of the effects on the environment of (a) small-scale biodiesel production The LDNPA’s website states and (b) competition within the biodiesel market. “There is a 10 nautical miles per hour speed limit on Lake [26932] Windermere, dropping to 6 miles per hour in some areas.” 815W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 816W

Official Cars: Liquefied Natural Gas made, so that the benefits of low carbon proposals are fully recognised. This includes reviewing and revising its Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for guidance on appraising transport projects, as well as its Transport whether he has made an estimate of the processes for assessing schemes and supporting ministerial potential cost savings likely to be made from converting decisions. We will announce the scope and timetable of a Government Car Service vehicle to be fuelled by this review shortly. liquefied petroleum gas autogas. [27204]

Mike Penning: The cost-effectiveness of a conversion DEFENCE to liquid petroleum gas (LPG) can only be realised with vehicles that cover high mileage using primarily LPG Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations and without incurring the associated reliability issues that the conversion creates. The mileage profile and Mr : To ask the Secretary of State for replacement cycle of a Government Car Service vehicle Defence whether the remit of the Defence Reform would not permit full recovery of the conversion costs. Units review includes forces and operations in Afghanistan. Parking: Fines [26292] Dr Fox: The remit of the Defence Reform Unit’s Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport review does not include our current forces or operations how many local authorities (a) responsible for London in Afghanistan. boroughs and (b) outside London have contacted his Department to seek an increase in charges for parking Armed Forces: Aircraft penalties. [27114] Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Baker [holding answer 29 November 2010]: Defence what estimate his Department has made of the Penalty charges in London are the responsibility of the likely effect of implementing his decision to procure London Mayor. The British Parking Association has the non-STOVL variant of the joint strike fighter on raised this matter with Ministers of behalf of their local the number of jobs. [27614] authority members. In addition six local authorities have written to the Department for Transport. Peter Luff [holding answer 30 November 2010]: The Stourbridge to Walsall Freight Rail Line decision to purchase the carrier variant (CV) of the joint strike fighter (JSF) was made on the basis of its advantages offered in terms of interoperability with Margot James: To ask the Secretary of State for allies, range, and pay load and through life costs over Transport what progress has been made on reinstating the short take off and vertical landing (STOVL) variant. the Stourbridge to Walsall freight rail line; and if he The industrial implications of the key strategic defence will make a statement. [27799] and security review choices were given careful consideration, Mrs Villiers: There is no current project to reinstate but we have not made a specific assessment of the the Stourbridge to Walsall line. However, Network Rail impact on the jobs in the UK of the decision to proceed has published the West Midlands and Chilterns Route with the CV of the JSF. Many UK companies continue Utilisation Strategy Draft for Consultation in November to be heavily involved in the overall JSF programme. 2010. It has established that there may be a case for re-opening the Stourbridge to Walsall line to accommodate Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for future freight growth. Defence which engines have been chosen to be fitted on the joint strike fighter; and if he will make a statement. Transport: Expenditure [27615]

George Eustice: To ask the Secretary of State for Peter Luff: Pending the US decision as to whether to Transport what changes his Department has made to continue funding for the completion of development of its formula for assessing benefit-to-cost ratios in the alternative General Electric/Rolls Royce F136 engine, respect of transport schemes since May 2010. [27328] it is too early to determine which engines will be fitted to the joint strike fighter. Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has Armoured Fighting Vehicles not changed its definitive appraisal guidance since May 2010. The guidance, along with planned changes released “in draft” in January 2010 (which included a new benefit- Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for cost ratio formula), are available at: Defence with reference to the strategic defence and security review, page 24, what estimate he has made of http://www.dft.gov.uk/webtag/index.php the cost to his Department of introducing protected Spending review decisions were informed by a value- support vehicles to replace unprotected versions that for-money measure which was consistent with two of are no longer suitable. [26794] the proposed changes to the guidance: introducing the latest monetary values of carbon and adopting the new Peter Luff: There are a number of future planned benefit-cost ratio formula. programmes for both protected and unprotected support The Department for Transport’s business plan for vehicles. The protection level of any given vehicle is very 2011-15 states it will reform the way transport projects much driven by the capability the vehicle is designed to are assessed, and funding prioritisation decisions are meet and the threat level it is expected to face. To 817W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 818W maintain flexibility many of the vehicles are designed maritime protection and (c) search and rescue; and if and procured with the ability to be fitted with additional he will make a statement. [27026] protection in order to match specific threats. The Wolfhound, Coyote and Husky tactical support Peter Luff: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I vehicles have been procured specifically for Afghanistan gave on 28 October 2010, Official Report, columns and over 500 will enter service at an approved cost of 450-51W, to the right hon. Member for Coventry North over £500 million. East (Mr Ainsworth) and the hon. Members for East The new Foxhound light protected patrol vehicle will Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), replace Snatch Vixen on operations and an initial tranche and North Durham (Mr Jones). of 200 vehicles has been approved at a cost of around The UK’s requirement for Anti-Submarine Warfare £180 million excluding VAT. and Intelligence surveillance, target acquisition and The cost of the Operational Utility Vehicle System reconnaissance (ISTAR) capability was assessed during will be determined after the main investment decision the Strategic Defence and Security Review and will be point. kept under regular review. I can confirm that we have judged the implications of the decision not to bring the Defence Exports Group Nimrod MRA4 into service to be acceptable. We are in the process of developing a longer-term plan to mitigate Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the impact of cancellation on our continuing military Defence when the Defence Exports Group was established; tasks and capabilities. This will include an assessment what its terms of reference are; who its members are; of costs. how many times it will meet per year; and when it will next meet. [22652] Rescue Services

Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for : To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he expects to establish the Defence Defence whether the concept of operations underpinning Export Group; and whether a decision has been made the search and rescue (helicopter) requirement included on its composition. [25615] the assumption that a search and rescue helicopter fleet would operate in conjunction with Nimrod maritime Dr Fox: The Defence Exports Support Group (DESG) patrol aircraft. [26669] was established on 22 October. The core DESG membership is the Secretary of State for Defence; the Minister for Dr Fox: The Search and Rescue Helicopter project Defence Equipment, Support and Technology; the Minister includes the requirement that the helicopters would be for International Security Strategy; and Head, Defence able to interface with any other assets that might also be and Security Organisation, UK Trade and Investment. involved in dealing with an incident. Ministers and/or senior officials from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills will also attend as appropriate. Strategic Defence and Security Review The DESG will be a forum through which Ministers will plan and focus their support to UK Defence exports. Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for The intention is to hold the first DESG meeting before Defence (1) to whom his Department’s document Christmas at which its terms of reference and frequency entitled SDSR: Lessons Identified, 3 November 2010, of meetings will be discussed. was submitted; [26297] Nimrod Aircraft (2) who commissioned his Department’s document entitled SDSR: Lessons Identified, 3 November 2010; [26301] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) if he will estimate the cost to the public purse of (3) if he will publish his Department’s document making alternative arrangements for (a) protection of entitled SDSR: Lessons Identified. [26312] the carrier fleet and (b) provision of strategic deterrent against submarines compared to the cost of retaining Dr Fox [holding answer 25 November 2010]: The the Nimrod MRA4; and if he will make a statement; document was proposed and a draft prepared by the [26944] strategic defence and security review (SDSR) core (2) what assessment he has made of the co-ordination team in charge of day-to-day management consequences for (a) intelligence, surveillance, target of the Review, to draw together working-level views acquisition and reconnaissance support, (b) maritime from individuals involved in the SDSR process in the protection and (c) search and rescue capability in Ministry of Defence. The draft was a working document respect of (i) protection of merchant shipping and (ii) distributed to members of the SDSR programme board protection of coastal waters following the decision to for comment: The Government have no intention to cease the use of Nimrod MRA4 aircraft; what estimate publish it. he has made of changes to the cost to the public purse in the provision of such services as a result; and if he Trident Submarines will make a statement; [27016] (3) what assessment he has made of the cost to his Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Department of C130 and C130K aircraft as a how much his Department spent on long lead items for replacement for the Nimrod MRA4 for (a) intelligence Vanguard submarines prior to the final decision to surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance, (b) proceed with construction of the submarines. [26415] 819W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 820W

Dr Fox: Details of the cost of long lead items for the VAT Vanguard class are not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 14. Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has had with the Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Chancellor of the Exchequer on the likely effect on Defence what estimate he has made of the proportion families in Scotland of the proposed increase in value of the cost of replacing Trident likely to be incurred added tax. [26721] prior to a decision of the House at Main Gate Stage on submarine replacement in 2016. [26416] David Mundell: The VAT rise is part of the Government’s credible plan to tackle the largest deficit in peacetime Dr Fox: The likely expenditure will be dependent on history. Difficult decisions are necessary but, as a the Initial Gate decision which we expect to finalise consequence, we will get ourselves back on a sustainable shortly. I do, however, propose to update Parliament on economic footing. progress, including costs, after the Initial Gate decision Departmental Sponsorship through the publication of a report. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland USA: Nuclear Weapons what expenditure his Department incurred on sponsorship in each year since 1997 for which figures are available. Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for [27521] Defence with reference to his plans to co-operate on nuclear warhead testing with France, whether the UK David Mundell: The Scotland Office was established will continue to (a) participate in or (b) receive the on 1 July 1999. The only expenditure it has incurred results of US sub-critical nuclear tests undertaken at since then by sponsoring others outside Government to the Nevada nuclear test site. [27415] promote a cause or provide a service was £3,296 in 2002-03. Dr Fox: The recently signed treaty with France on Devolution proposed nuclear co-operation does not address “nuclear warhead testing” but delivers hydrodynamic experiments that provide a key element of assurance for the safety Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for and reliability of the UK’s nuclear stockpile. Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the Advocate-General on devolution issues. [26717] I am satisfied that the treaty is complimentary to our nuclear co-operation with the US under the 1958 Mutual David Mundell: The Secretary of State and I discuss Defence Agreement and the nuclear exchanges made devolution issues with the Advocate-General on a regular possible through that agreement. basis, and we have all worked together on preparations for the new Scotland Bill which will deliver the Warships: Decommissioning Government’s commitment to strengthening the devolution settlement for Scotland. Mr Scott: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether HMS Ark Royal will be offered for sale to foreign navies following her decommissioning. [27188] JUSTICE

Peter Luff: HMS Ark Royal is due to formally leave Arrest Warrants service with the Royal Navy in early 2011. It is too early to determine the future plans for HMS Ark Royal. Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what timetable he has set for the implementation Any decision will be in line with the Ministry of of his proposals to amend the law on universal jurisdiction. Defence’s policy for handling surplus assets. [27240]

Mr Blunt: The Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill, which was introduced into this House yesterday, SCOTLAND contains a provision requiring the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions to be given before an arrest Elections warrant can be issued in a private prosecution for an offence of universal jurisdiction alleged to have been 13. Jim McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for committed outside the United Kingdom. This requirement Scotland when he last met the Electoral Commission to would ensure that, whilst private individuals could still discuss the management of elections in Scotland. apply for an arrest warrant, a warrant could be issued [26720] only where there was a prospect of successful prosecution. Departmental Grants David Mundell: My right hon. Friend and the Advocate- General for Scotland met the Electoral Commission on Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 13 October. what grants have been awarded by his Department in I will be meeting the new Convener of the Electoral 2010-11 to date; what grants he plans to award in each Management Board later this month to discuss preparations of the next two years; what the monetary value is of for next year’s elections and referendum on the UK each such grant; and to which organisations such grants parliamentary voting system. are made. [27214] 821W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 822W

Mr Kenneth Clarke: Between April and October 2010 Grant awarded by MoJ or the MoJ awarded grants worth £70 million to external Organisation or Umbrella term (£000) organisations. The organisations who were awarded grants are listed in the following table. Family Drug and Alcohol Court 35 pilot For 2011-12, the MoJ is still exploring funding options Reunite 128 for external organisations and charities. The MoJ 2012-13 National Mediation Helpline 90 funding is subject to the 2010 spending review and is Family Mediation Helpline 40 not yet finalised. NOMS has estimates in place for Coroners’ Support Service 48 2011-12 and 2012-13 but these are subject to change Development Trust Association 50 based on funding levels from MoJ. Women In Prison 80 The MoJ also provides grants-in-aid to its NDPBs. Women’s Community Projects 6,200 For the year 2010-11, the gross provisions1 for these are: (umbrella) CLINKS 548 NDPB Grant-in-Aid (£000) Local Criminal Justice Boards 7,375 Victim Support 51,566 Legal Services Commission 2,175,331 Total 70,271 Information Commissioner’s 7,990 Office Judicial Appointments 6,860 Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Commission what the monetary value of grants awarded by his Parole Board 10,948 Department was in 2009-10; and how much he expects Youth Justice Board 448,131 to award in grants in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12. Criminal Injuries Compensation 238,823 [27215] Authority Criminal Cases Review 6,496 Mr Kenneth Clarke: In 2009-10 the Ministry of Justice Commission awarded grants to external organisations to the value of 1 As per the 2010-11 winter supplementary estimates £81.4 million. Note: These figures are subject to change following end of year audit. For the full financial year of 2010-11, the MoJ anticipates a total expenditure of £71.8 million to be made in The MoJ is currently working out specific funding grants to external bodies. requirements for NDPBs in 2011-12 and 2012-13. The grants to external organisations for 2011-12 have yet to be decided. Grant awarded by MoJ or Note: Organisation or Umbrella term executive agency (£000) All future figures are estimates only and are subject to change. Writers in Prison Network Ltd 47 EU Law Partners of Prisoners and Families 16 Support Group Koestler Trust 35 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice NACRO 1,149 how many EU directives are pending transposition into domestic legislation by his Department; and what estimate SOVA 248 he has made of the cost of each such transposition. Prisoners Abroad 146 [27506] CVS Pre-release Volunteer Scheme 79 National Assoc, of Prison Visitors 6 Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice is responsible RCJ (Miscarriages of Justice) 90 for two directives that are currently pending transposition Mubarek Trust 23 into domestic legislation: Prison Video Trust 29 Directive 2008/52/EC of the European Parliament and of the Action for Prisoners’ Families 187 Council on Certain Aspects of Mediation in Civil and Commercial Samaritans 55 Matters. The introduction of this directive will not impose additional United Synagogue Visitation 12 regulatory burdens on businesses. The procedures it will introduce Committee will be optional to those wishing to conduct EU cross-border Sikh Chaplaincy Service UK 17 mediations, and are expected to lead to greater legal certainty for those involved. The main costs envisaged to implement the directive Angulimala 17 are in relation to the necessary facilitative amendments to court ADFAM 84 rules and minimal costs in training court staff and the judiciary. Magistrates’ Association 37 Directive 2010/64/EU of the European Parliament and of the Operation Black Vote 70 Council on the Right to Interpretation and Translation in Criminal John Smith Memorial Trust 320 Proceedings. We are currently considering the most cost-effective UK Subscription for the Hague 161 ways of transposing and implementing this directive, with the Conference result that estimated costs cannot currently be provided. GRECO ID contribution 30 Prisons: Visits Great Britain China Centre 190 China Law Council 328 Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Plenet for running costs between 50 Apr-Jun Justice how many registered prison visitors there were Money Advice Trust 750 in each of the last five years; and whether he plans to The Helplines Association 25 take steps to increase the number of such visitors. [27667] 823W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 824W

Mr Blunt: Statistical information on the number of Parliamentary Archives: Manpower official prison visitors (OPVs) is not collated centrally. OPVs are independent volunteers appointed by prison Mr Amess: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, governors to visit prisoners and offer friendship. They Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of are neither paid civil servants nor religiously affiliated Commons Commission how many staff at each grade volunteers. The appointment of OPVs is a matter for are employed in the Parliamentary Archives; and if he the governing governor of each establishment. will make a statement. [28132]

John Thurso: The Parliamentary Archives, a shared service of both Houses, employs 23.5 staff at the following House of Lords’ grades: HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Number

Meat: Ritual Slaughter Senior band 1 1 A2 3 B1 6 Keith Vaz: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, B2 5.5 Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of C2 2 Commons Commission, what checks are made with C3 6 suppliers to ensure that halal and kosher meat are not supplied as ordinary meat intended for general Smartphone Applications consumption in canteens and restaurants of the House of Commons. [27688] Priti Patel: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of John Thurso: Incumbent suppliers and suppliers bidding Commons Commission, what estimate the Parliamentary for the award of the contract for the future supply of Information and Communications Technology Office fresh meats and poultry to the House of Commons has made of the cost of developing a mobile smartphone catering service have confirmed that kosher meat does application for Parliament; what the cost will be holding not enter the mainstream supply chain to catering focus group meetings on 30 November 2010 and establishments and, on that basis, they are confident 1 December 2010; and when the smartphone application that kosher meat has not been, nor will be, supplied to is due to be available. [27382] the House as ordinary meat. As stated in the reply given on 16 November 2010, John Thurso: The development of a new mobile Official Report, column 761W, by the hon. Member for application, designed primarily for those visiting Parliament, Middlesbrough (Sir Peter Stuart Bell) to the hon. Member is being led from within the Department of Information for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight), incumbent suppliers Services. The procurement for the smartphone mobile have admitted that it is highly likely that halal-slaughtered application is currently running, and to publish the poultry has in the past been supplied to the House of budget might influence the responses from potential Commons instead of ordinary meat. Henceforth, all suppliers. suppliers have agreed, as a condition of contract, that Only one focus group is now being run, on 30 November. halal-slaughtered meats and poultry will not be supplied The focus group planned for 1 December is not going unless expressly ordered or agreed to by the House of ahead. The participants are coming in on a voluntary Commons catering service. This requirement has been basis and are not being paid. The cost of holding the added to the contract currently being tendered. focus groups will depend on the number of participants, and will be restricted to the provision of refreshments Keith Vaz: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, and any claims for reasonable travel costs. Refreshments Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of are expected to cost £17.50, and a maximum of £20 per Commons Commission, whether meat used in canteens person is being set for travel claims. At present, seven and restaurants in the House of Commons in the last people have registered an interest. 12 months had been slaughtered by kosher methods. It is expected that the smartphone application will be [27689] available from April 2011.

John Thurso: No kosher meat has been served in the House of Commons cafeterias and restaurants in the last 12 months. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION Departmental Written Questions Keith Vaz: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Chairman of the Commons Commission, whether kosher meat has been Public Accounts Commission how many and what used in non-kosher dishes in the restaurants or canteens proportion of questions tabled to the Public Accounts in the House of Commons in the last 12 months. [27696] Commission for answer on a named day were answered substantively before or on the day named for answer John Thurso: No kosher meat has been used in non- (a) in Session 2009-10 and (b) since May 2010; how kosher dishes in the House of Commons restaurants or many such questions tabled between May 2010 and cafeterias in the last 12 months. 12 November 2010 had not received a substantive 825W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 826W answer by 18 November 2010; and what estimate he has corruption. We understand he is being held in secure made of the average cost to the Commission of detention in Ashgabat or in a prison colony not far answering a question for written answer on a named from Ashgabat. Mr Rejepow’s son, Nurmurad—arrested day on the day named for answer in the latest period at the same time—was pardoned in 2007. for which figures are available. [25991] We continue to have a regular and constructive dialogue with the Turkmen Government on human rights issues, Mr Tyrie: In Session 2009-10, there was one question both bilaterally and through international fora such as tabled to the Public Accounts Commission for answer the European Union. Monitoring and raising individual on a named day. This received a substantive answer four cases forms an important component of this dialogue. days after the day named, which was the next sitting day. Since May 2010 there have been no named day British Council: Finance questions. The Public Accounts Commission has not made an Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for estimate of the average cost of answering a named day Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much funding question on the day named for answer but it is noted was provided by his Department to the British Council that HM Treasury has established the cost of a written in each year since 2005. [23459] PQ as £154.00. See paragraph 7.27 at the following link: Mr Jeremy Browne: I refer the hon. Member to the http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/parliamentary-clerk-guide/ chapter7.aspx answer I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) on 27 July 2010, Official Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Chairman of the Report, column 970W. Public Accounts Commission how many and what Cayman Islands: Loans proportion of questions tabled to the Public Accounts Commission for ordinary written answer (a) in Session : To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 and (b) since May 2010 were answered within Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what conditions (i) seven days and (ii) 14 days of tabling; how many such were placed on the loan of £217 million to the Cayman questions tabled between May 2010 and 12 November Islands authorised in 2009. [27742] 2010 remained unanswered by 18 November 2010; and what estimate he has made of the average cost the Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government gave permission Commission of answering a question for ordinary written for the Cayman Islands Government to borrow Cayman answer within seven days of tabling in the latest period Island $275 million in October 2009, subject to the for which figures are available. [25992] Cayman Islands Government (CIG): including further savings/efficiency measures in 2009-10 budget Mr Tyrie: In Session 2009-10, there were two questions plans; tabled to the Public Accounts Commission for ordinary undertaking an urgent independent impact assessment of the written answer, of which both were answered within community enhancement fee, alternative forms of payroll tax, seven days. Between May 2010 and 12 November 2010 property tax and any other tax that would genuinely broaden there were no questions tabled for ordinary written the revenue base; answer. introducing substantial new tax(es) or fee(s) as identified in the The Public Accounts Commission has not made an impact assessment study as soon as possible and certainly no estimate of the average cost of answering an ordinary later than financial year 2010; and written question within seven days of tabling, but it is taking swift action to further cut expenditure and/or raise noted that HM Treasury has established the cost of a additional revenue if a greater than expected deficit was recorded. written PQ as £154.00. See paragraph 7.27 at the following link: Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/parliamentary-clerk-guide/ Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what conditions chapter7.aspx he placed on the loans to the Cayman Islands authorised in June 2010. [27743]

Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government gave permission FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE for the Cayman Islands Government to borrow Cayman Island $155 million in June 2010, subject to: Akmyrat Rejepow The measures in the Cayman Islands Government’s (CIG) three year plan being fully implemented, which : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign included measures to make significant savings/efficiencies, and Commonwealth Affairs what representations his and raise revenue by increasing fuel duty over the three Department has made to the government of years; Turkmenistan on the (a) fate and (b) whereabouts of CIG using the proceeds of divestment activity to establish a Akmyrat Rejepow. [27314] dedicated “sinking fund” within the next year to rebuild reserves and offset debt attached to the recent bond issue; Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office CIG restructuring existing loans to put in place arrangements has made no representations to the Turkmen Government to pay down debt over the longer term; and on the fate and whereabouts of Akmyrat Rejepow, nor CIG ensuring that the Cayman Islands have a full, up-to-date are we aware of a request for us to do so. We understand set of audited accounts by the end of the next financial year; that Mr Rejepow (a former general in the Turkmen and security apparatus) was sentenced to 20 years’imprisonment No further requests for borrowing being made over the next in May 2007, having been convicted on charges of financial year. 827W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 828W

Diplomatic Service: Domestic Staff Mr Bellingham: The Government Hospitality wine cellar has held between 38,000 and 39,000 bottles of David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for wine for the last five years. The most recent independent Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what regulations stock-take in October 2010 showed that the Government govern the (a) working conditions and (b) remuneration Hospitality wine cellar contained: of domestic staff employed by foreign diplomats accredited (a) 25,721 bottles of red wine to the UK. [28045] (b) 7,624 bottles of white wine Mr Bellingham: Article 41 of the Vienna Convention (c) 1,661 bottles of champagne on Diplomatic Relations 1961 states that, without prejudice (d) 2,937 bottles of fortified wine. to their privileges and immunities, it is the duty of all This excludes non-vintage reception wines. diplomats Cellar stock levels are regularly reassessed and the ‘to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State’. cellar’s performance and value for money are reviewed This includes employment laws. Diplomatic missions throughout the year. and international organisations in the UK are periodically reminded of their responsibilities with regard to the Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign employment of domestic workers; in August 2010, Protocol and Commonwealth Affairs at which events held Directorate of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office between 11 May and 11 November 2010 wine from the issued a note to all missions highlighting their obligations. Government wine cellar was served. [26388] Government Departments work together and with non- governmental organisations to monitor the employment Mr Bellingham: Events held between 11 May 2010 rights of domestic workers in foreign diplomatic households and 11 November 2010 at which wine from the Government in the UK. Hospitality wine cellar was served are as follows. European Union The following were on a repayment basis: 13 May 2010: Dinner for British-American business hosted by Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign my hon. Friend the Minister for Trade, Investment and Small and Commonwealth Affairs what powers have been Business. ceded to the EU and in what areas of policy jurisdiction 8 June 2010: Diplomatic reception hosted by my right hon. has been ceded since 10 May 2010 and in each case Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth specifying whether such cession was by (a) EU legislative Affairs. instrument, (b) judicial decision, (c) operation of a 9 June 2010: Dinner for Israeli judges hosted by my right hon. passerelle provision, (d) the ending of an opt-out, (e) Friend the and Secretary of State for Justice. an agreement to opt-in, (f) treaty amendment and (g) 5 July 2010: Reception for the Young Offenders Programme other means. [26626] led by the National Grid hosted by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice. Mr Lidington: All of the legislative measures that 28 July 2010: Reception for energy security hosted by my hon. have been adopted since 10 May 2010 have been based Friends the Minister of State for the Foreign and Commonwealth on the existing powers and competences conferred on Office and the Minister of State at the Department of Energy and the EU under the existing EU treaties, which have been Climate Change. approved by Parliament. None of the passerelles under 13 September 2010: Lunch for Dr Henry Kissinger hosted by the existing EU treaties have been exercised since 10 my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and May 2010. There have been no treaty amendments. We Commonwealth Affairs. are not aware of any judicial decisions which have 21 September 2010: Reception for Eid hosted by my right hon. resulted in a transfer of competence or power from the Friends the , the Secretary of State for Communities UK to the EU. The whole of Title V is an area of shared and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under- competence. This position is not altered by the exercise Secretary of State for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, of a UK opt-in. and other Government Ministers. 9 November 2010: Dinner for the Secretary of Defence for the Football: South Africa Republic of South Africa hosted by my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Security Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Strategy. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his The following were funded by Government Hospitality Department spent on attendance at the 2010 FIFA Fund: World cup. [26149] 3 June 2010: Lunch for the Prime Minister of Canada hosted by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Mr Jeremy Browne: No Foreign and Commonwealth 3 June 2010: Dinner for the EU High Representative for Office (FCO) Ministers or officials visited South Africa Foreign Affairs hosted by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of to attend the 2010 World cup, and no money was spent State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. by the FCO on purchasing match tickets. 3 June 2010: Dinner for the Judicial Conference hosted by my right hon. Friends the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Government Hospitality: Wines Justice. 8 June 2010: Lunch for the Secretary of Defence of the United Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign States of America hosted by my right hon. Friend the Secretary and Commonwealth Affairs how many bottles of (a) of State for Defence. red wine, (b) white wine, (c) champagne and (d) 16 June 2010: Lunch for the Minister for Foreign Affairs of the fortified wine there are in the Government wine cellar. United Arab Emirates hosted by my right hon. Friend the Secretary [26387] of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. 829W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 830W

18 June 2010: Lunches for the President of the Republic of 11 November 2010 Lunch for the Minister for Foreign Affairs France and his Ministers hosted by my right hon. Friends the of the Republic of Austria hosted by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister. Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. 23 June 2010: Dinner for Reconnaissance Visit from the Holy Iraq: Christianity See hosted by my noble Friend the right hon. Lord Patten of Barnes CH PC (Chancellor of the ). 28 June 2010: Lunch for the Minister of Defence of the Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Federal Republic of Germany hosted by my right hon. Friend and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer to Secretary of State for Defence. the hon. Member for the Wrekin of 15 November 2010, 28 June 2010: Dinner for the Five Country Conference hosted Official Report, column 631W, on Iraq: Christianity, by my hon. Friend the Minister for Immigration. what the outcomes were of his meeting with the Iraqi 5 July 2010: Lunch for the Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Foreign Minister; and if he will take further steps to Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan hosted by my right hon. Friend seek to secure protection for institutions in Iraq. [27860] the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. 7 July 2010: Dinner for the international energy forums hosted Alistair Burt: Iraqi Foreign Minister Zebari confirmed by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Energy and Climate to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on 10 Change. November that the protection of minorities was the 8 July 2010: Lunch for the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the responsibility of the Iraqi Government. This responsibility Republic of Turkey hosted by my hon. Friend the Secretary of has been recognised more widely by the Iraqi Prime State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. Minister and the newly elected Speaker of the Council 20 July 2010: Reception for Indian Government/industry officials of Representatives Usamah Al-Nujaifi. The Speaker who attended the Farnborough International Air Show hosted by has requested that Christian MP Yonadam Kanna form my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for a parliamentary committee to prepare recommendations International Security Strategy. for protecting Christians and follow up investigations 28 July 2010: Lunch for the State Secretary of Labour and into the recent attacks. The Iraqi Council of Representatives Social Affairs of the Federal Republic of Germany hosted by my has also called for increased recruitment of Christians hon. Friend the Minister of State for Employment. into the Iraq security forces. 5 August 2010: Dinner for the President of Pakistan hosted by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. During my visit to Iraq from 22-25 November I 6 September 2010: Dinner for the capital markets climate raised the need to improve the protection of Christians initiative hosted by my hon. Friend the Minister of State for and other minorities with all his interlocutors. The Energy and Climate Change. British Government will continue to press the Iraqi 8 September 2010: Dinner for the Deputy Prime Minister and Government to ensure that Iraqi constitutional Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam commitments to guarantee the rights and freedoms of hosted by my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Commonwealth citizens is respected and protected. We will also continue Affairs. to urge the Iraqi Government to protect all communities, 17 September 2010: Dinner for Pope Benedict XVI’s delegation especially vulnerable minority groups and to deal hosted by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign appropriately with those who are found responsible for and Commonwealth Affairs. any acts of violence and intimidation because of political, 27 September 2010: Lunch for the Minister for Roads, Transport ethnic or religious affiliation. and Highways of the Republic of India hosted by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport. Israel: OECD 27 September 2010: Lunch for the Reconnaissance Party for the state visit of the Emir of Qatar. Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for 21 October 2010: Lunch for the UK/Mexico high level talks Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the UK hosted by my hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Foreign representation is on the Organisation for Economic and Commonwealth Office. Co-operation and Development (a) Committee of Statistics 21 October 2010: Lunch for the Minister of Foreign Affairs of and (b) study team quantifying the effects on Israeli the Republic of Poland hosted by my right hon. Friend the macro-economic statistics of the inclusion of the Golan Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. Heights, East Jerusalem and Israeli settlements in the 25 October 2010: Lunch for the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi West Bank. [25635] hosted by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. 25 October 2010: Lunch for the Finance Minister for the Swiss Mr Jeremy Browne: The UK Statistics Authority Confederation hosted by my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary represents the UK on the Organisation for Economic to the Treasury. Cooperation and Development Committee on Statistics. 26/27 October 2010: Lunch and state banquet for the state visit The authority will also represent the UK on the study of the Emir of Qatar hosted by Her Majesty the Queen. team quantifying the effects on Israeli macro-economic 27 October 2010: Dinner for the Secretary for Policy, Strategy statistics of the inclusion of the Golan Heights, East and International Affairs of the Federative Republic of Brazil Jerusalem and Israeli settlements in the West Bank. hosted by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of This work is expected to begin in early 2011. State for International Security Strategy. Palestinians: International Assistance 30/31 October 2010: Lunch and dinner for the Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany hosted by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 2 November 2010: Lunch for the UK-France summit hosted and Commonwealth Affairs (1) how much funding his by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Department provided to non-governmental organisations 8 November 2010: Dinner for the International Energy Forum within the Palestinian Authorities of the West Bank and hosted by my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Energy and Gaza in each financial year since 2003; and for what Climate Change. purposes such funds were allocated; [21986] 831W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 832W

(2) how much funding his Department has provided sector (i) nationally and (ii) in Central Suffolk and to non-governmental organisations located in the North Ipswich constituency in 2011-12. [26866] Palestinian authorities of the West Bank and Gaza in (2) how many places will be available for (a) each financial year since 2003; and for what purposes apprenticeship schemes and (b) vocational courses in such payments were made. [25737] the agricultural sector (i) nationally and (ii) in the Alistair Burt: Between 2003-04 and 2009-10 financial Central Suffolk and North Ipswich constituency in years, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) 2011-12. [26867] has provided £2,420,960 to non-governmental organisations within the West Bank and Gaza. The breakdown is as Mr Hayes: “Investing Skills for Sustainable Growth” follows: was published on 16 November. In the 2011-12 financial year, we plan to invest £3.9 billion in FE skills for post £ 19 learners. This includes £3.7 billion for over three million adult training places funded through the Skills 2003-04 1— Funding Agency.In the 2011-12 financial year, £605 million 2004-05 122,000 is earmarked for adult apprenticeships. Spend on adult 2005-06 104,482 apprenticeships will increase by up to £250 million, 2006-07 542,328 relative to the previous Government, by the end of the 2007-08 484,113 spending review period, supporting an additional 75,000 2008-09 604,824 people to start an apprenticeship by 2014-15. 2009-10 563,213 In support of the coalition Government’s principle 1 No allocation of greater freedom, “Skills for Sustainable Growth and The list of organisations and project funding for Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth” set out the 2010-11 is an indicative list, as funding cannot be confirmed abolition of central targets and increased freedom and at this point of the financial year. flexibility for further education colleges and training The FCO utilises a number of funding programmes organisations to respond effectively to the needs of with the purpose of (a) strengthening the bilateral employers, learners and their communities. It will be for relationship (b) helping to manage or mitigate conflicts individual colleges and training organisations, working and (c) developing the capacity of non-state actors in directly with their local partners, to determine the offer the West Bank and Gaza to provide oversight of the that best meets the needs of their communities. Executive and its actions including monitoring of human From the 2011/12 academic year, there will be a single rights, access to justice and social welfare. adult skills budget, with earmarked delivery for Piracy apprenticeships. As part of its allocations process later this year, the Skills Funding Agency will set out a Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign minimum expectation of apprenticeships delivery. Further and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he Education colleges and training organisations will be has had with his NATO counterparts on the development able to use their single adult skills budget allocation to of policy to counter international piracy. [27107] expand apprenticeships. However, any diversion of funding away from apprenticeships is to be agreed with the Mr Lidington: There have been no recent meetings at Agency. North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) at ministerial level specifically to discuss counter piracy. But, in the Information on learner participation and achievement communiqué of its recent Lisbon summit, NATO renewed in further education is published in a quarterly statistical its commitment to counter piracy in the Gulf of Aden first release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 16 and Indian Ocean through its Operation Ocean Shield. November and can be viewed at: NATO works closely alongside the EU’s Operation http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current Atalanta and the Combined Maritime Forces so as to respond effectively and coherently to the threat of piracy, including on allocation of assets to the large area of Credit: Regulation operations. NATO is also a key partner in the Contact Group on Piracy off the Coast of Somalia, working comprehensively to address operational, legal and regional Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, capacity concerns to ensure that piracy is tackled on a Innovation and Skills whether his Department has made sustainable basis, including at its roots. an estimate of the numbers of UK residents who have The UK continues to support the operation, which been refused access to credit through banks and building has recently has had its mandate extended until 2012. societies in the last 10 years. [26472] The Royal Navy currently has a frigate and auxiliary vessel allocated to Operation Ocean Shield. Mr Prisk [holding answer 30 November 2010]: The Government do not collect data on the number of UK residents refused credit by banks and building societies. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The Department of Business, Innovation and Skills Agriculture: Training commissions a quarterly survey (carried out by YouGov), which monitors the latest consumer credit and debt Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, trends. The following table has been produced from this Innovation and Skills (1) how much funding from the survey, showing the proportion of the population who public purse will be available for (a) apprenticeship have applied for credit (broken down by credit type) in schemes and (b) vocational courses in the agricultural the last six months and the outcome of this application. 833W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 834W

Proportion of the population who have applied for unsecured credit and FSM eligibility is means tested and the majority of the outcome of this application (where the outcome is known) in the FSM young people are from households in receipt of last six months some form of income support. Some 14% of young Proportion of the people claim meals. population who applied for credit/ Application These figures have been estimated using matched Credit loans was rejected Percentage of data from the National Pupil Database, the Higher product (percentage) (percentage) total population Education Statistics Agency Student Record and the Credit card 8 24 1.9 Learning and Skills Council Individualised Learner Unsecured 3 33 0.7 Record. Figures for 2008/09 will be available next year. loan The Department uses a number of measures to monitor Overdraft 2 29 0.8 progress on participation of disadvantaged students, facility such as those from low participation neighbourhoods, Store card 1 19 0.3 and low socio-economic groups. However, figures in Mail order 1 14 0.2 this answer have been provided as receipt of FSM is Car finance 1 9 0.1 directly related to family income. loan Notes: 1. Based on 2009-10 YouGov data, sample size 13,172. Higher Education: Finance 2. The statistics in the table need to be interpreted with caution. Due to data limitations, we are unable to say how many individuals were refused credit completely in the last six months. For instance, a Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for borrower may have refused a credit card, but was able to secure an Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer overdraft facility. In addition, the values in the table cannot be of 11 November 2010, Official Report, column 480W, summed, to produce statistics on the proportion of the population on higher education: finance, what the outcomes were refused credit. This is because some borrowers may have been rejected of his discussions with the Secretary of State for Work for more than one credit product. Certain credit products have been excluded such as payday loans and home credit, which are unlikely to and Pensions. [27309] be offered by banks and building societies. Mr Willetts: The Secretary of State for Business, Departmental Food Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham () and I have discussed the Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, proposed changes to higher education funding and Innovation and Skills whether his Department has student finance at Cabinet. Our statements to the House guidelines on ensuring that food used for his Department’s of Commons on this subject reflect the Government official functions is of domestic origin. [25438] position, as agreed at these meetings.

Mr Davey: The Department’s contracted catering Local Enterprise Partnerships and conference supplier Baxterstorey are accredited to the Red Tractor Farm Assurance Scheme and are fully Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for compliant, demonstrating robust support for enhanced Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to animal welfare, environmental responsibility, quality fund the development of Local Enterprise Partnerships; produce and supporting British producers. by what mechanisms such partnerships will he be able The Department adheres wherever possible to the to bid for funds from his Department to fulfil their five key objectives of the Public Sector Food Procurement duties; and if he will make a statement. [27714] Initiative (PSFPI). These objectives run in parallel to those of Baxterstorey, which form part of the policies Mr Prisk: No central Government spending has been that result in the approach to sustainable and ethical allocated specifically to fund the activities of local procurement. For example all eggs used on the departmental enterprise partnerships. As set out in the White Paper estate are British, Lion Brand standard and free range on Local Growth local enterprise partnerships will be and 99% of all pork and bacon products are British and expected to fund their own day-to-day running costs supplied by Red Tractor accredited suppliers. and will also want to consider how they can obtain the best value for public money by leveraging in private Higher Education: Admissions sector investment. The mechanisms for how local enterprise partnerships may bid for centrally available funds, such as the regional growth fund, will be specific to the fund Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for itself. Details regarding how to access the regional Business, Innovation and Skills what the participation growth fund can be found on the Department’s website rate was of people aged 18 years in each income at the following address: quintile entering higher education for the first time in http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/regional-economic- the latest period for which figures are available. [27759] development/regional-growth-fund

Mr Willetts: The Department does not publish Manufacturing Industries: Trade Competitiveness information in the form requested. Latest figures show that 15% of pupils aged 15 in 2003/04 who claimed free school meals (FSM) at English maintained schools Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State progressed to HE by the age of 19 in 2007/08. The for Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to equivalent figure for young people who did not claim support competitiveness in the manufacturing sector. free school meals is 33%. [27090] 835W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 836W

Mr Prisk: The Government are supporting raise awareness of opportunities in Bahrain, including a manufacturing by creating a stable business environment middle east road show in February and a financial that will give businesses the confidence they need to services road show in September. UKTI also staged a plan and invest. We are doing this by creating a more ‘Britain in the Region’ event in Dubai in November supportive tax environment, freeing up credit through aimed at encouraging British companies with regional the banking system, reducing regulation, maximising headquarters in Dubai into other markets in the middle the flexibility of the labour market and focusing on east, including Bahrain. training and apprenticeships. The Government announced in the spending review that they will invest up to £200 million to support manufacturing and business development focusing on high growth business and innovation ATTORNEY-GENERAL particularly among small and medium sized businesses. The Government have launched their comprehensive EU Law growth review and this will ensure that all Departments are actively removing barriers faced by industry. Priti Patel: To ask the Attorney-General how many As part of the phased reporting process, we will EU directives are pending transposition into domestic conduct a detailed look into barriers to growth within legislation by the Law Officers’ Departments; and what advanced manufacturing. estimate he has made of the cost of each such transposition. [27482] Also on 6 December we will be launching a new approach to manufacturing that will highlight key The Attorney-General: The information is as follows: ambitions, identify growth opportunities and set out a new framework of actions for both Government and 1. None industry. 2. None.

Regional Growth Fund

Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for PRIME MINISTER Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer Pupils: Bullying of 11 November 2010, Official Report, column 485W, on the Regional Growth Fund, what types of proposals will meet the criteria to be considered as strategic Mrs Glindon: To ask the Prime Minister if he will investment programmes. [27335] establish a Cabinet Sub-Committee on the prevention of and responses to bullying in schools. [27708] Mr Prisk: There will be a separate bidding form and guidance for programme proposals, which will be made The Prime Minister: The Schools White Paper made available in early 2011. Programme proposals are therefore clear our expectation that all schools should take a zero not included within the first bidding round. tolerance approach to bullying. Bullying in schools is discussed by the relevant Cabinet Committees. UK Trade and Investment: Bahrain

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps UKTI is taking to CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT increase trade and investment with the Kingdom of Arts: Cumbria County Council Bahrain. [27807]

Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) supports Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for business with Bahrain through trade and investment Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent teams based in the British embassy in Manama and in assessment he has made of the effect of local authority the UK. UKTI provides a broad range of support for funding reductions on arts organisations based in the British companies—from conferences and trade missions Cumbria county council area. [27729] to support for trade fairs and exhibitions—and also oversees annual trade and economic talks with Bahrain Mr Vaizey: It is central Government’s role to empower aimed at prioritising opportunities and improving the local communities and local authorities to make the environment for bilateral trade and investment. The decisions that they feel are most appropriate for their most recent talks resulted in the signature of a bilateral area. Double Taxation Agreement in March 2010. The Department will continue to fund the arts through Recent examples of support for business with Bahrain Arts Council England, who provide support to a number include visits by the Lord Mayor of the City of London of regularly funded organisations across the country. in February; and by the UK’s Special Representative for International Trade and Investment, HRH The Duke Arts: Sunderland City Council of York, in May. UKTI organised scoping visits to Bahrain in the spring of 2010 focused on the creative Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for industries and sports infrastructure sectors; and also Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent assessment organised a UK pavilion of 18 companies at the World he has made of the likely effects of local authority Islamic Banking Conference in Manama in November. funding reductions on arts organisations in the Sunderland Regular events are organised by UKTI in the UK to city council area. [27805] 837W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 838W

Mr Vaizey: It is central Government’s role to empower signed in full. The Department for Culture, Media and local communities and local authorities to make the Sport also has similar co-production agreements with decisions that they feel are most appropriate for their Australia, Canada, France, Jamaica, New Zealand, South area. Africa, India and Morocco—the Moroccan treaty was The Department will continue to fund the arts through signed last year but has yet to be fully ratified by the Arts Council England, who provide support to a number Moroccan authorities. of regularly funded organisations across the country. Copyright: Recordings Broadband Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for : To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will assess Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he has made the likely effect on the British music industry of the of the cost to the economy of the introduction of expiry of 50 years copyright on recordings in the next high-speed broadband services across the UK by 2015; 10 years. [27347] and if he will make a statement. [27683] Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. Mr Vaizey [holding answer 30 November 2010]: Overall, I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on 18 we believe there will be a net benefit to the economy November 2010, Official Report, columns 889-890W. from introduction of superfast broadband. The There are no plans to undertake the work described. Government have made no recent estimate of the costs of deploying superfast broadband. The Broadband Departmental Sponsorship Stakeholder Group recently published a complementary report on the costs of fixed wireless and satellite broadband. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, The Government have committed £530 million to Olympics, Media and Sport what expenditure (a) his facilitate the delivery of universal broadband and stimulate Department and (b) its non-departmental public private sector investment to deliver the best superfast bodies incurred on sponsorship in each year since 1997 broadband network in Europe by 2015 for which figures are available. [27520] Co-production Agreement between the UK and Israel : The Department does not provide corporate sponsorship or branding for events but it Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for does encourage sponsorship of its sectors from the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he world of business. has made of the revenue likely to be raised as a result of Data on expenditure incurred by non-departmental the co-production agreement between the UK and public bodies is not held centrally. Accordingly, I have Israel in (a) 2010, (b) 2011, (c) 2012, (d) 2013 and asked the chief executive of each non-departmental (e) 2014. [27239] public body to respond to the hon. Member for Witham directly. A copy of the responses will be placed in the Mr Vaizey: We have estimated an average annual Libraries of both Houses. benefit of between £0.5 million and £2.5 million. The monetised benefits reflect spending on films which would Newsquest Media Group not have occurred without the treaty being in place. The range reflects a lower case scenario where one film is Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, made every two years with £1 million UK spend, and Olympics, Media and Sport what recent meetings (a) the upper case involves five films with £1 million spend Ministers and (b) civil servants in his Department have made every two years. had with directors of the Newsquest Media Group on In addition, research indicates that film locations can local media provision. [27336] get up to a 30% boost in bookings from fans visiting locations from their favourite film (e.g. the Harry Potter Mr Vaizey: As part of Nicholas Shott’s review of films have helped boost tourism in the Northumberland local TV he undertook a visit to Scotland where he met area by 16%). As well as clear tourism potential, there with a range of interested parties including Newsquest. are cultural benefits to the UK of greater film diversity. He was accompanied by a member of his steering group Given that the film industry largely comprises Single and an official from the Department. Purpose Vehicles it is difficult to predict in advance how many businesses will make use of the treaty. We do not believe it will be significantly higher than projections, particularly in the first few years. TREASURY Air Passenger Duty Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he has assessed the merits of extending to other countries the Richard Fuller: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer provisions of the co-production agreement agreed with (1) if he will change the basis for calculating air passenger Israel. [27248] duty banding from London to capital city of destination to London to destination; [26546] Mr Vaizey: The recently signed film co-production (2) if he will change the air passenger duty banding agreements with Israel, and with the Palestine Liberation for destinations in the Caribbean to be the same as that Organisation (PLO) on behalf of the Palestinian Authority, for destinations on the east coast of the United States. were the ninth and tenth agreements respectively to be [26545] 839W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 840W

Justine Greening: The June Budget stated that the However, a recent Court of Appeal case has considered Government will explore changes to the aviation tax how the wording of these Employers’ Liability insurance system, including switching from a per-passenger to a policies affects civil compensation for mesothelioma per-plane duty. Major changes will be subject to sufferers and we had hoped that the judgment would consultation. have provided a general principle on how these policies should deal with their mesothelioma claims. The court Banks: Finance decided that the policies should be interpreted based on the actual policy wording, which means that some Frank Dobson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer sufferers may not be able to claim compensation if the what the monetary value is of (a) loans and (b) guarantees insurance policy was worded in such a way that prevents given to UK banks by his Department since 2007. a claim from being made. We expect this judgment to be [26984] appealed to the Supreme Court. In February 2010 the previous Government published Mr Hoban: A full breakdown of financial support their consultation document, Accessing Compensation— provided to UK banks is published by the Treasury on a Supporting people who need to trace employers’ liability financial year basis. Details of the support provided for insurance, which set out proposals for people who need the years 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2009-10 are set out in to find their Employers’ Liability insurance policies in the Treasury’s Resource Accounts for 2007-08 (HC order to claim compensation. The consultation closed 539), 2008-09 (HC 611) and 2009-10 (HC261), respectively. on 5 May 2010. There were two proposals; firstly an Banks: Loans Employers’ Liability Tracing Office, that would manage a database of EL policies. Secondly, an Employers’ Liability Insurance Bureau which would be a compensation Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Chancellor of the fund of last resort for those individuals who are unable Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 18 November to trace EL insurance records, ensuring they are able to 2010, Official Report, column 894W, on banks: loans, if receive compensation for injuries or diseases sustained he will undertake an assessment of trends in the criteria during the course of their employment. We are in active for setting personal guarantees for loans over the last discussions with all stakeholders on how this situation 10 years. [27308] can be addressed and we will publish our response to the consultation in due course. Mr Hoban: In response to the Government’s Green Paper on business finance, the British Bankers; Association (BBA) published the outcomes of their Business Finance Income Tax Taskforce, which was written in conjunction with the six major UK banks. John Mann: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer As part of these commitments, the banks have agreed what estimate he has made of the amount of revenue to fund and establish an independent business survey. which accrued from income tax from employees in each This survey will provide more information of the experience business sector in each of the last three years. [27548] of small businesses in applying for finance. Mr Gauke: A sectoral breakdown of income tax Copyright: Music revenues for the latest three years is not available. Estimated shares of pay as you earn tax liabilities Mike Weatherley: To ask the Chancellor of the deducted from pay (excluding pensions) by industry to Exchequer if he will estimate the additional revenue to 2007-08 are published in table 2.10 on the HMRC the Exchequer attributable to an extension to 75 years website: of musicians’ copyright in the last 10 years. [27346] http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/table2-10.xls Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Gentlemen to the answer Total PAYE tax (excluding pensions) is estimated at I gave him on 22 November 2010, Official Report, £107.2 billion, £115.7 billion and £123.3 billion in respect column 84W. of liabilities for 2005-06, 2006-07 and 2007-08 respectively.

Employers’ Liability: Asbestos Members: Correspondence

Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Kevin Brennan: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will bring forward proposals for a requirement for when the Chief Secretary to the Treasury plans to respond employers to insure themselves against potential harm to the letters of 17 September 2010 and 1 November caused to employees by asbestosis. [24112] 2010 from the hon. Member for Cardiff West. [27753] Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply. Mr Hoban: I have replied to the hon. Member. The Employers’ Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act 1969 requires employers carrying on business in Great Britain to insure their liability to their employees Mortgages for bodily injury or disease sustained in the course of their employment. This Act ensures that those with Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer asbestos-related diseases can claim compensation against (1) whether he has assessed the effect of the mortgage their Employers’ Liability insurance, where the employer market proposals made by the Financial Services Authority has been negligent in exposing them to asbestos while at on small businesses with a turnover under £1 million; work. [27483] 841W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 842W

(2) what assessment he has made of the likely effect Mr Hoban: The Government are committed to a on house prices of the mortgage market proposals healthy housing and mortgage market. made by the Financial Services Authority; and if he The Financial Services Authority (FSA) is conducting will make a statement. [27484] a wholesale review of mortgage regulation in the UK, the ‘Mortgage Market Review’. Mr Hoban: The Government are committed to a The Government believe that it is right for the FSA healthy housing and mortgage market. to ensure that the UK mortgage market has responsible The Financial Services Authority (FSA) is conducting lending practices. We will continue to work with the a wholesale review of mortgage regulation in the UK, FSA, mortgage lenders and intermediaries, and consumer the ‘Mortgage Market Review’. groups to ensure a mortgage market that is sustainable for all participants. The Government believe that it is right for the FSA to ensure that the UK mortgage market has responsible The FSA published ‘Mortgage Market Review: lending practices. We will continue to work with the Responsible Lending in July’, which sets out the details FSA, mortgage lenders and intermediaries, and consumer of some of the proposed changes. This paper forms one groups to ensure a mortgage market that is sustainable part of an ongoing consultation process. for all participants. The FSA has stated that they will fully assess the The FSA published ‘Mortgage Market Review: potential impact on the market before implementing Responsible Lending’ in July which sets out the detail of any rule changes. Further, the FSA will consult in 2011 some of the proposed changes. This paper forms one on transitional measures to help mitigate any adverse part of an ongoing consultation process. effects on existing borrowers. The FSA has stated that they will fully assess the Treasury Ministers and officials have discussions with potential impact on the market before implementing a wide variety of organisations in the public and private any rule changes. Further, the FSA will consult in 2011 sectors as part of the process of policy development on transitional measures to help mitigate any adverse and delivery.As was the case with previous Administrations, effects on existing borrowers. it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of all such discussions.

Mr Syms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Private Finance Initiative: Newton Abbot (1) whether he has assessed the effect of the mortgage market proposals made by the Financial Services Authority on small businesses with a turnover under : To ask the Chancellor of the £1 million; [27533] Exchequer what schemes under the Private Finance (2) whether he has assessed the effect of the Financial Initiative there are in Newton Abbot constituency. Services Authority’s mortgage market review proposals [26022] on the (a) availability of mortgages and (b) operation of the housing market; and if he will make a statement; Danny Alexander: A list of signed and in procurement [27534] PFI projects can be found on HM Treasury’s website at: (3) whether he has discussed with the Council of http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ppp_pfi_stats.htm Mortgage Lenders the proposals on responsible lending For each PFI project, this list details the project name, made by the Financial Services Authority and their the capital value, the constituency, the procuring authority likely effect on the housing market; [27535] and whether it is on or off balance sheet; as used by the (4) if he will take steps to ensure that the implementation ONS in calculating public sector net debt. This indicates of the Financial Services Authority’s mortgage market that there are currently no PFI projects in the Newton review proposals does not have a negative effect on Abbot constituency. home-buyers and the housing market; [27536] Revenue and Customs: Marketing (5) what estimate he has made of the number of borrowers who may not be able to take out remortgages following the introduction of the Financial Services Priti Patel: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Authority’s proposals for the mortgage market; and if pursuant to the answer of 23 November 2010, Official he will bring forward measures to assist such borrowers; Report, column 274W, on incentives, from which of its [27539] budgets HM Revenue and Customs funds expenditure (6) what estimate he has made of the number of on promotional material; and how much has been mortgages granted since 2005 which would not have spent from each such budget in each of the last three been issued under the Financial Services Authority’s years. [27477] proposals for the mortgage market; [27540] Mr Gauke: In HMRC, promotional items may be (7) if he will take steps to ensure that (a) self-employed printed paper, office supplies or non paper items. These and (b) other homebuyers with variable incomes will be items will have been purchased via a range of budgets able to obtain mortgages under the Financial Services including commodities such as print, paper/stationery. Authority’s proposals for the mortgage market; [27544] From these budgets promotional materials are not (8) what assessment he has made of the likely effects identifiable from other items and cannot be disaggregated of implementation of the Financial Services Authority’s except at disproportionate cost. No central record is proposals on availability of mortgage finance on home- held of the spend on promotional materials and is not ownership in the UK. [27537] available except at disproportionate cost. 843W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 844W

Tax Yields Mr Gauke: The full breakdown of tax receipts outlined in the question is not available. Mr Byrne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer HMRC produce a breakdown by broad industrial how much revenue his Department raised through (a) sector for corporation tax, PAYE income tax and class 1 personal, (b) direct business, (c) consumption, (d) national insurance contributions (NICs) and value added property and (e) environmental taxes from the (i) tax (VAT). business services, (ii) education, health and social work, Historical figures for corporation tax receipts paid by (iii) financial intermediation, (iv) manufacturing, (v) several broadly-defined business sectors are regularly other wholesale and retail trade, (vi) transport services, updated and published in table 11.1 on the HMRC (vii) construction, (viii) real estate and renting, (ix) National Statistics website. Receipts information is available public administration, (x) oil and gas extraction, (xi) from 1997-98 to 2009-10. The sectors are defined by insurance and pension funding, (xii) hotels and HMRC’s Summary Trade Classifications. The latest restaurants, (xiii) recreational and social activities, (xiv) update is available here: postal and telecommunications, (xv) other services, (xvi) energy, gas and water supply, (xvii) agriculture, http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/corporate_tax/table11_1.pdf forestry and fishing and (xviii) mining and quarrying PAYE income tax and class 1 NICs received by except oil and gas sector in each financial year since HMRC in respect of employee and employer liabilities 1997-98. [22559] are split by sector as follows:

£ billion Sector 1999-2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05

Agriculture, Hunting 664 630 598 617 676 730 and Forestry Mining and Quarrying 701 762 675 673 654 669 Manufacturing 24,185 24,752 23,925 23,731 25,133 25,696 Electricity, Gas and 1,225 1,229 1,118 1,089 1,098 1,135 Water Supply Construction 6,981 7,597 8,200 8,974 10,164 10,751 Wholesale and Retail 14,944 15,824 15,978 17,025 18,733 19,729 Trade Hotels and Restaurants 2,314 2,457 2,558 2,806 3,200 3,450 Transport, Storage and 8,779 9,801 10,139 10,104 10,912 11,939 Communication Financial 11,866 15,525 15,115 15,536 17,001 18,739 Intermediation Real Estate, Renting 22,830 26,582 28,050 27,948 29,567 32,221 and Business Activities Public Administration 6,086 5,899 5,994 6,293 7,525 10,544 and Defence Education 11,441 12,442 13,206 14,105 16,274 17,498 Health and Social Work 8,648 9,035 9,659 10,845 12,959 14,598 Other Community, 4,060 4,527 4,747 5,026 5,691 6,169 Social and Personal Service Activities Occupational Pensions 5,989 6,300 6,561 6,671 6,752 7,166 Other 645 1,384 2,385 1,920 1,547 1,676 Total 131,358 144,748 148,905 153,363 167,887 182,709

£ billion Sector 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Accounting Adjustment 765 782 839 865 858 Sector 757 829 864 961 982 Agriculture, Hunting and Forestry 25,898 26,570 27,355 26,056 23,464 Mining and Quarrying 1,135 1,253 1,429 1,519 1,514 Manufacturing 11,575 12,428 14,236 13,779 11,896 Wholesale and Retail Trade 20,554 21,512 22,895 22,574 21,339 Construction 3,640 3,891 4,046 3,857 3,732 Wholesale and Retail Trade 12,676 12,826 13,125 13,062 12,289 Hotels and Restaurants 20,673 24,085 26,160 23,691 23,184 Real Estate, Renting and Business Activities 35,182 38,996 44,009 45,581 43,286 Public Administration and Defence 11,324 11,658 11,965 11,821 12,476 Real Estate, Renting and Business 18,456 19,422 20,133 20,487 20,747 Public Administration and Defence 16,167 17,454 17,735 18,385 19,530 845W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 846W

£ billion Sector 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Other Community, Social and Personal 6,585 7,025 7,344 7,531 7,257 Service Activities Occupational Pensions 7,609 8,402 9,195 9,449 10,058 Other 1,627 352 -43 70 -263 Total 194,623 207,484 221,286 219,690 212,350

Data are available back to 1999-2000 only. The sectors COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT are defined by the Office for National Statistics’ Standard Industrial Classification 2003. The occupational pensions Affordable Housing: Construction figures include all income tax on occupational pensions regardless of the sector in which the person was previously Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State employed. for Communities and Local Government what assessment Declared VAT is published by trade group in the VAT he has made of the effects of the proposed changes to factsheet, table 2-3: rules under which new social housing can be constructed on the potential for small housing associations who do https://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=factvat not construct new housing to amalgamate with other Given that sectors for corporation tax, VAT and (a) large and (b) small housing associations; and if he PAYE income tax and class 1 NICs are defined differently will make a statement. [27097] these sets of figures are not directly comparable. : We continue to encourage housing Taxation: Music associations to explore models for management or ownership rationalisation if this will deliver better value- Mike Weatherley: Toask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for-money and improved services for tenants. how much tax revenue was raised in respect of the The Government do not have a fixed view about what UK-based music industry in (a) 2005, (b) 2006, (c) size a Housing Association should be. There are excellent 2007, (d) 2008 and (e) 2009. [27232] large and small Housing Associations in existence. Decentralisation and Localism Bill Mr Gauke: The information required to answer the question is not available. Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Weatherley: Toask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Communities and Local Government when he plans to whether he has made a recent assessment of the merits publish the Localism Bill. [27245] of tax incentives to encourage the development of UK musical talent. [27234] Greg Clark: The Localism Bill contains a wide range of measures to shift power from central Government Mr Gauke: The Government seek to provide a into the hands of individuals, communities and councils. competitive environment and tax system for businesses The Bill frees local government from central and regional and individuals across the economy. control and strengthens local democracy. In addition, it gives greater power over planning, housing and other The Government believe that simplicity and stability services and allows councils and councillors to be better are features of good tax policy, and that in general a tax held to account. system with fewer reliefs and allowances will provide the best incentive for economic growth. The Bill will be published imminently. Housing: Construction VAT: Churches Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for Henry Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Communities and Local Government what estimate he if he will seek agreement from the Council of Ministers has made of the number of new houses which would to zero-rate value added tax on repairs to historic need to be built in Southampton unitary authority area church buildings. [27098] in each of the next five years in order for the authority to establish a net income gain under the terms of the Mr Gauke: EU legislation agreed by successive New Homes bonus scheme. [27192] Governments does not provide any scope for the introduction of new zero rates or the extension of Grant Shapps: The New Homes Bonus will start in existing zero rates. There is therefore no realistic prospect April 2011 and will match fund the additional council of securing agreement to the introduction of a new zero tax raised for new homes and properties brought back rate for repairs to historic church buildings. However, into use for the following six years, with an additional the Department for Culture, Media and Sport operates amount for affordable homes. a scheme which makes grants equivalent to the VAT The Department has set aside almost £l billion over incurred in making repairs to listed buildings primarily the comprehensive spending review period for the scheme, used for worship. The Listed Places of Worship Grant including nearly £200 million in 2011-12 in year one. Scheme will continue until 2014-15 with a fixed annual Funding beyond these levels will come from formula budget of £12 million. grant. 847W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 848W

The New Homes Bonus consultation is available at; Average per dwelling (£) http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingsupply/ 2007-08 2008-09 newhomesbonus Supervision and Supervision and management: management: This is accompanied by a calculator which will enable General Special Repairs General Special Repairs you to estimate grant from the New Homes Bonus for Southampton. This can be found at: North 878 512 918 677 403 979 West http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/xls/ Yorkshire 756 188 795 769 200 811 1767709.xls and the We will announce our proposals for the local government Humber finance settlement for 2011-12, in the usual manner, in East 601 238 850 637 243 889 due course. Midlands West 689 298 1,067 651 267 953 Housing: Costs Midlands East 701 387 924 681 393 893 London 1,536 606 1,185 1,591 606 1,259 Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for South 859 414 1,032 719 363 933 Communities and Local Government what information East his Department holds on the average (a) cost of South 654 277 814 750 294 821 management charges, (b) cost of maintenance and (c) West return on capital expenditure in respect of the housing National 858 367 902 902 380 974 Average stock in each sector in each region. [26690] Notes: General management includes expenditure on supervision and management of Andrew Stunell: The following table provides estimates housing revenue account (HRA) property, eg policy and management, of the average annual routine and planned maintenance managing tenancies, rent collection and accounting. Special services include services (mainly shared) to HRA tenants, eg costs per unit for social landlords, based on data provided caretaking, cleaning, communal lighting, lifts, communal heating, laundry to the Tenant Services Authority. Cost figures are derived services, concierge schemes, ground maintenance and welfare services from published financial statements, include only landlords (excluding essential care and other special services). managing more than 1,000 social homes and use end of There is no suitable measure with which to calculate year stock numbers to produce average costs. This the return on capital invested for this sector. information is not available on a regional basis. Mortgages £’s per unit 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Mr Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Routine 606 614 630 685 and Local Government what his policy is on financial maintenance assistance to first-time homebuyers who commit a large costs proportion of their income in mortgage payments in Planned 258 264 271 302 order to get on to the property ladder. [27541] maintenance costs Grant Shapps: The Government are committed to Management 731 779 844 893 helping those who aspire to own their own home, through costs ensuring a return to economic and financial stability. There is no suitable measure with which to calculate The Government are seeking to achieve this through a the return on capital invested for this sector. This is programme of debt reduction and a commitment to because most social landlords are non-profit making abolish the structural deficit in the life of this Parliament. organisations and the valuation of assets across the This will help to keep mortgage interest rates low and sector at both historic cost and current value prevents a improve credit availability. valid aggregation of such measures. The coalition agreement included a commitment to The following table gives data on local authority promote shared ownership. While grant funding under expenditure on supervision and management and repairs, the new investment model for affordable housing announced for council housing in 2007-08 and 2008-09 by region. in the spending review will primarily target the new This is taken from local authorities’ annual second affordable rented product, there may be some scope for advance housing revenue account subsidy claim forms delivery of low cost home ownership as part of the submitted to the Department for Communities and contractual arrangements with providers where this is Local Government. The regional split in the table is appropriate for local circumstances. derived from the ‘Live tables on housing finance and household expenditure, Table 652’ available on the Park Homes: Caravan Sites Department’s website at: http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/housingfinance/ Communities and Local Government how many residential livetables/ park homes there are on licensed park home sites in Average per dwelling (£) each county. [27180] 2007-08 2008-09 Supervision and Supervision and Grant Shapps: These data are not collected. management: management: The Department has made no official estimate on General Special Repairs General Special Repairs this, but soundings in the sector suggest there are North 624 364 753 653 401 790 approximately 85,000 park homes on 2,000 sites in East England and 5,000 homes on 100 sites in Wales. 849W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 850W

Poverty: Children In relation to Parliament square, I refer my hon. Friend to my answer of 25 November 2010, Official Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Report, column 439. Communities and Local Government if he will take In relation to unauthorised encampments, I refer my steps to ensure that local authorities are allocated the hon. Friend to the press notice of the Secretary of State resources to meet their obligations under the Child for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. Poverty Act 2010; and if he will make a statement. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr [23042] Pickles) on 29 August 2010, a copy of which is in the Library. It outlines the new Government’s approach of : I have been asked to reply. providing incentives and support for authorised Traveller sites, while removing the counter-productive regime of The Government are committed to ending child poverty top-down planning and ensuring fair play in the planning by 2020 and recognises the critical role of local authorities system. and other partners in achieving that aim. Part 2 of the Child Poverty Act 2010 introduced new duties for local The forthcoming Localism Bill and changes to secondary partners to cooperate and carry out local child poverty legislation will include provisions to end the abuse of needs assessments and develop joint child poverty strategies. retrospective planning permission and will give councils In recognition of the potential costs of carrying out stronger powers to tackle unauthorised development in that work the Government have made an additional all its forms. £9.5 million available this year to ensure local authorities Working Neighbourhoods Fund have the resources to meet the local duties. Funding will be provided for the remainder of this Mr Allen: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities implementation year (2010-11) to support local authorities and Local Government what assessment he has made in England who are leading the co-operation around of the likely effects of the closure of the Working the duties. Payments will be distributed to all ‘top-tier’ Neighbourhoods Fund on the most deprived communities local authorities via the area based grant and the first in the country; and what sources of funding will be payments were made in October. available to support such areas in the spending review period. [27456] Squatting Robert Neill: The Working Neighbourhoods Fund was a time-limited, three year programme scheduled to Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for run from 2009-11. In line with our equalities duties, an Communities and Local Government how many incidents equality impact assessment into the completion of the of squatting were recorded (a) in Brighton and Hove Working Neighbourhoods Fund has been carried out constituency and (b) nationally in (i) 2007, (ii) 2008, and will be published in due course. and (iii) 2009. [27236] Businesses and local authorities in areas which currently receive the Fund will now be able to bid into the £1.4 Grant Shapps: Information on the number of dwellings billion Regional Growth Fund to kick-start private that are occupied by squatters is not held centrally. sector-led growth. The Department for Work and Pensions is also to introduce the Work Programme which will Tenancy Deposit Schemes provide an integrated package of support providing personalised help for people who find themselves out of Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for work. Communities and Local Government what proportion The Government are also giving communities and of disputes in respect of tenancy deposit protection neighbourhoods new rights, flexibilities, powers and schemes resulted in a decision in favour of the tenant in tools that they could use to drive forward local regeneration (a) 2007-08, (b) 2008-9 and (c) 2009-10. [27750] and growth. For example through de-ringfencing of local budgets, and introducing incentives through the Grant Shapps: My Department does not hold this New Homes Bonus to direct more money to councils information. My hon. Friend may wish to contact the that build houses. The hon. Member should be aware three companies running the tenancy deposit protection that as outlined in the March 2010 Budget, the last schemes directly. Government was planning in-year cuts to the Working Neighbourhood Fund. Travellers: Caravan Sites

Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities EDUCATION and Local Government what steps he is taking to reduce Business: Education the number of (a) squatters and (b) unauthorised encampments. [27311] Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what plans his Department has for the future of enterprise Grant Shapps: In relation to squatting, on 8 November education in primary schools; and if he will make a I published an online guide for home owners affected by statement. [18817] squatters. This sets out their rights and the action they can take. We are also taking steps to help get empty Mr Gibb: The Department currently has a contract homes back into productive and lawful use, thus reducing with the Specialist Schools and Academies Trust (SSAT) the scope for squatting. to run the Enterprise Network to support the extension 851W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 852W of enterprise education from a secondary school focus Maintained nursery, maintained primary1, state-funded secondary1, 2 to the primary and FE sectors. The network is made up and special3 schools: School meal arrangements4, 5. As at January 2010—by each ward within Ealing Southall parliamentary of Enterprise Learning Partnerships (ELPs), each chaired constituency by a head teacher with representatives on the Board Number of Percentage of from two secondary schools, two primary schools, a pupils known to pupils known to special school, a further education college and an employer. be eligible for be eligible for There are currently 54 ELPs covering 99.6% of local Number on free school free school authority areas in England. To date, 7,002 primary Ward name roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals schools have been involved in the Enterprise Network Norwood 1,674 501 29.9 activities. Lead practitioners for each sector of education, Green including primary, have been identified in each region Southall 2,448 598 24.4 to share their ideas for enterprise education with their Broadway peers. Southall Green 2,105 690 32.8 The contract with SSAT ends in March 2011. Beyond that date, we expect the ELPs to become self-sustaining Ealing Southall 13,250 3,325 25.1 without Government funding, ensuring a network of (all wards) local and teacher-led groups to support enterprise education 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. in schools, including primary schools. 2 This term generally covers local authority maintained secondary schools, city technology colleges and academies, however there are no city technology colleges or academies in this constituency. Departmental Redundancy 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general hospital schools. 4 Includes sole and dual (main) registrations. Ms : To ask the Secretary of State for 5 Pupils who have full-time attendance and are aged 15 and under, or Education what estimate he has made of the number of pupils who have part time attendance and are aged between five and redundancies arising from the spending reductions 15. Source: proposed in the comprehensive spending review in School Census respect of (a) his Department, (b) its non- departmental public bodies and (c) other public bodies which are dependent on his Department for funding. Kristallnacht: Education [21515] Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Tim Loughton: Determining optimal work force reforms (1) whether the study of Kristallnacht is included in the in order to live within the Department’s spending review curriculum at secondary school level; and if he will resource DEL settlement will be an ongoing process. make a statement; [24890] Detailed decisions regarding the number of redundancies that may be required have yet to be finalised. (2) what recent representations he has received on the inclusion of Kristallnacht in the curriculum at secondary school level; and if he will make a statement. Free School Meals: Ealing [24891]

Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Gibb: The teaching of the Holocaust is a compulsory for Education how many children in each ward in part of the National Curriculum at secondary school Ealing Southall constituency are eligible for free school level, but it is up to schools to determine whether the meals; and whether he has made a recent estimate of study of Kristallnacht should be included in this. As the proportion of those children in each such ward who Kristallnacht was a key moment in the events leading are claiming free meals. [23576] up to the Holocaust, it is expected that most secondary schools would teach this. Mr Gibb: The Department collects information on the number of pupils who meet the free school meals The Department has provided funds, with the Pears criteria and make a claim. Information is not available Foundation, for a national programme of courses to on the number of pupils who may be eligible but do not help teachers address the concerns and issues they make a claim. encounter when teaching about the Holocaust. Kristallnacht features prominently in one of the training activities for The number of pupils known to be eligible and this programme. claiming for free school meals is shown in the table. The Secretary of State has not recently received any Maintained nursery, maintained primary1, state-funded secondary1, 2 representations on the inclusion of Kristallnacht in the 3 4, 5 and special schools: School meal arrangements . As at January curriculum at secondary school level. 2010—by each ward within Ealing Southall parliamentary constituency The Government are committed to reviewing the Number of Percentage of National Curriculum to restore it to its original purpose—a pupils known to pupils known to core national entitlement organised around subject be eligible for be eligible for disciplines. We plan to consult a wide range of academics, Number on free school free school Ward name roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals teachers and other interested parties to ensure that our core curriculum can compare with those of the highest Dormers Wells 2,224 721 32.4 performing countries in the world. More details about Elthorne 2,358 526 22.3 our plans to review the curriculum will be announced Lady Margaret 943 211 22.4 later in the year. As part of the consultation process Northfield 1,498 78 5.2 there will be a number of opportunities to contribute. 853W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 854W

Pre-School Education: Special Educational Needs Schools: Holocaust Memorial Day

Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Education what measures are in place to identify pupils what arrangements his Department has made to mark in pre-school education with special educational needs. Holocaust Memorial Day in schools in 2011; and if he [22918] will make a statement. [24889]

Sarah Teather [holding answer 9 November 2010]: Mr Gibb: The Department funds the Holocaust We believe it is vital that children who have special Educational Trust’s Lessons from Auschwitz project, educational needs and disabilities, including the needs which provides for two students (aged 16 to 18) from of pre-school children, are identified as early as possible every school/sixth form college in England to visit if they are to make the most of their education experience. Auschwitz-Birkenau. Many of the students who participate There are currently provisions in place that impose legal in the project will be marking Holocaust Memorial Day requirements to identify, assess and make provision for in their schools and local communities across the country. these pre-school needs, for example through the Special Educational Needs Code of Practice and the Early Schools: Reading Years Foundation Stage statutory framework. We want to strengthen the system so that all children are ready to Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Education engage in learning when they start formal schooling. what recent assessment he has made of the effects on The Tickell review is considering how young children’s attainment levels in reading and mathematics among early learning should best be supported and the forthcoming the lowest achieving six and seven year olds of the Green Paper on Special Educational Needs and Disability Every Child a Reader programme; and if he will make a will consider how we can achieve better educational statement. [23201] outcomes and life chances for children and young people with special educational needs from the early years Mr Gibb: We regularly evaluate the progress of the through to transition to adult life and employment. programme against a range of management information. Evidence shows that Every Child a Reader has had a Pupils: Disadvantaged positive impact in raising the attainment of pupils in the programme, as well as indications of a positive whole-school effect. Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for All three Every Child programmes are currently Education how many children who attended (a) undergoing robust independent evaluations, to report maintained primary schools, (b) Catholic maintained in late 2010 or early 2011, which will give a substantive primary schools, (c) maintained secondary schools view of the impact of the programmes. and (d) Catholic maintained secondary schools lived in (i) the 10% most deprived super output areas Schools: Standards (SOAs), (ii) the 20% most deprived SOAs, (iii) the 30% most deprived SOAs and (iv) the 10% least deprived SOAs as measured by the Income Deprivation Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for Affecting Children Index in the school year 2009-10. Education what recent assessment he has made of [24895] educational standards in secondary schools in (a) South Thanet constituency and (b) England. [24585]

Mr Gibb: The requested information is shown in the Mr Gibb: In 2009 (the most recent year for which following table: constituency level data are available) 52.4% of pupils in Number of pupils resident in each IDACI decile attending maintained maintained schools in South Thanet achieved five or schools and maintained Catholic schools by phase of education—2010 more GCSEs at grade A*-C or equivalent including Primary1 Secondary1, 2 English and maths, compared to 50.9% in England. IDACI-3 decile of pupil All Catholic All Catholic We remain concerned that almost half of young residence schools schools schools schools people are leaving compulsory education without meeting this standard. That is why we are reforming the school 0-10 % most 584,313 75,460 377,687 52,831 system to give schools more freedom and introducing deprived the pupil premium to support children from disadvantaged 10-20% 498,615 54,953 347,214 40,363 backgrounds. 20-30 % 435,191 46,009 329,527 35,685 30-40 % 398,675 39,965 316,620 31,208 Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for 40-50 % 379,238 35,948 314,931 27,761 Education what recent assessment he has made of 50-60 % 366,354 33,154 312,916 26,264 educational standards in primary schools in (a) South 60-70 % 356,050 28,988 313,310 23,746 Thanet constituency and (b) England. [24586] 70-80 % 357,340 28,745 318,667 24,578 80-90 % 356,608 29,775 319,923 25,228 Mr Gibb: In 2009, the most recent year for which 90-100 % least 348,800 31,941 318,017 27,603 constituency level data are available, 62% of pupils in deprived maintained schools in South Thanet achieved Level 4 1 Maintained schools only, includes middle schools as deemed. or above in English and maths combined at Key Stage 2, 2 Secondary includes academies and city technology colleges. compared to 72% in England. 3 Income Deprivation Affecting Children Index 2007. Source: We want all children, whatever their background, to School Census 2010 achieve high standards in reading, writing and mathematics. 855W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 856W

That is why we are introducing a pupil premium which Sarah Teather [holding answer 4 November 2010]: will provide extra funding for those schools with the The Government are committed to the implementation most challenging intakes. of the United Nations convention on the rights of the child (UNCRC) and takes their obligations to the Special Educational Needs: Children in Care convention seriously. In March 2010, the previous Administration published Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for an analysis setting out how legislation, policy and practice Education what steps his Department is taking to reduce comply with the UNCRC. That analysis is being reviewed the incidence of special educational needs among looked- in order to assess how broader changes in legislation after children. [22917] and policy align with the UNCRC and will decide if any further action is needed to give further effect to the Sarah Teather [holding answer 9 November 2010]: convention. Just over half (52%) of looked after children have special educational needs (SEN). We are publishing a World War II: Education Green Paper which will set out how we will improve identification of and support for all children with SEN, Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Education including looked after children with SEN. All looked whether his Department has taken steps to promote (a) after children are required to have a care plan which is knowledge of and (b) interest in the 70th anniversary of drawn up and reviewed by the local authority which the Battle of Britain in schools; and if he will make a looks after them. This overall plan must include a plan statement. [24888] describing how the child’s educational needs will be met and whether s/he has a statement. Mr Gibb: The battle of Britain was a significant event Special Educational Needs: in the second world war; and the second world war is a compulsory subject in the secondary school curriculum. Schools determine whether to include the battle of Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Britain as part of their studies, and the Government Education how many teachers in Lancashire have a believe that schools should be free to decide how best to mandatory qualification in teaching deaf children; and mark the 70th anniversary of the battle of Britain. what recent estimate he has made of the number of children in Lancashire who are deaf. [22810] Youth Services: Manpower

Sarah Teather [holding answer 15 November 2010]: : To ask the Secretary of State for Education We do not routinely collect data regarding the number how many full-time equivalent youth support workers of British sign language qualified teachers teaching there are in each local authority area. [21377] deaf children in mainstream schools either nationally or by region. Local authorities are responsible for ensuring Tim Loughton: The does that teachers of hearing impaired and deaf children not collect these data. However, the Children’s Workforce possess the appropriate mandatory qualification to Development Council (CWDC) published an audit of undertake the role. It is a matter for local authorities to the workforce in December 2009 and this includes some ensure that they have enough qualified teachers to meet national level estimates of the numbers of youth and their statutory commitments. community workers. The report is available on CWDC’s Regarding the estimate of the number of children in website at: Lancashire who are deaf, these figures are available http://www.cwdcouncil.org.uk/young-peoples-workforce/ from the Statistical First Release ‘Special Educational state-of-the-young-peoples-workforce-report Needs in England: January 2010’. This shows that there were 426 pupils in Lancashire at School Action Plus or with statements that had hearing impairment as a primary need and were being educated within the maintained WORK AND PENSIONS sector or at special schools as at January 2010. Atos Healthcare At the end of the year the Government plan to publish a Green Paper on special educational needs and disabilities, which will explore how we can improve Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for support for all children with special educational needs Work and Pensions what services Atos is providing and disabilities, including those who are deaf or hearing under contract to his Department; and whether he impaired. plans to renew his Department’s contract with Atos in 2012. [26484] It is a priority to improve the educational outcomes for all children and we recognise the important role Chris Grayling: The information is as follows. specialists, such as Teachers of the Deaf, play in meeting this goal. Medical Services Following a competitive tender exercise the medical UN Convention on the Rights of the Child services agreement between Atos Healthcare and the Department for Work and Pensions was awarded on Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for 15 March 2005 by the Secretary of State for Work and Education if he will bring forward legislative proposals Pensions. The contract went live on 1 September 2005, to incorporate the provisions of the UN Convention on for a period of seven years, with options to extend for a the Rights of the Child into his Ministerial responsibilities. further three and two years. On 1 November 2010 the [21731] Minister of State for Employment awarded a contract 857W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 858W extension to 31 August 2015 to facilitate the delivery of Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement incapacity benefit reassessment. The new disability living Commission is responsible for the child maintenance allowance assessment service from 2013, is not included system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner in the extension contractual arrangements but will be to write to the hon. Member with the information awarded through a competitive tendering process. requested and I have seen the response. The scope of the medical services agreement is to Letter from Stephen Geraghty: provide medical advice to Department for Work and In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Pensions; Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs; Service Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive Personnel and Veterans Agency and Tribunals Service reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child to support decisions in relation to a number of benefits Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance and pensions, including but not limited to: and Enforcement Commission. Incapacity benefits You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, what estimate he has made of the average difference between in amounts Employment and support allowance paid by clients of the Child Support Agency on the (a) pre-2002 Industrial injuries disablement benefits and (b) post-2002 scheme. [24372] Disability living allowance (to be competed in 2013) The table shows average collections on cases administered Attendance allowance under old scheme rules compared to average collections on cases Statutory sick pay/statutory maternity pay administered under current scheme rules for each quarter. Child trust fund Average collections have been calculated by dividing the total amount of maintenance collected and arranged under each scheme War pension by the number of cases paying maintenance as at the end of each Vaccine Damage Payment scheme quarter. Financial Assistance scheme Total collections and caseload figures include cases administered Compensation Recovery scheme on the CS2 and CSCS computer systems as well as cases administered Appeals tribunal service off system. However, the value of maintenance direct payments within the collections figure only include off system cases from Occupational Health April 2008. Following a competitive tender exercise the occupational Average collections and arrangements will be directly impacted health framework agreement between Atos Healthcare by the average assessment value. The average assessment of Old and the Department for Work and Pensions was awarded Scheme cases is significantly lower than Current Scheme cases on 30 May 2008 by the Secretary of State for Work and due to differences in policy between the schemes. The majority of Pensions. cases in receipt of benefit on the Old Scheme are nil-assessed, whereas cases in receipt of benefit on the Current Scheme are The framework agreement went live on 3rd August given a weekly assessment of £5.00. 29% of cases on the Current 2008 and was for a period of three years, with an option Scheme have an assessment between £0.01 and £5.00, which to extend for a further two years. The Department for significantly reduces the average assessment value. Work and Pensions is currently considering the option I hope you find this answer helpful. to extend. Table 1: Average monthly collections and arrangements by scheme The scope of the occupational health framework £ ensures the Department has access to professional Average monthly Average monthly occupational health guidance, enabling obligations under collections/ collections/ the Equality Act (especially in respect of disabled workers) arrangements old arrangements to be fulfilled and also to prevent or resolve instances of Month scheme current scheme Difference sickness absence. Such guidance will normally be about December 179 125 54 the applicability of the Equality Act; the effect of illness 2006 on an employee’s functional capability; and measures March 2007 184 129 55 that can be taken to reduce the effects of illness on June 2007 181 128 53 functional capability or to rehabilitate an employee September 186 135 51 from sick leave to work. Services available via the agreement 2007 include but are not limited to: December 186 142 44 Attendance management support 2007 Pre-employment health screening March 2008 192 142 50 Audiology screening June 2008 194 137 56 Absence related case conferences September 199 142 57 2008 Atos also provide IT services to the Department December 197 142 54 under the Stand Alone Support Services (SASA) Contract. 2008 The covers the provision of development, support, March 2009 200 138 62 enhancement and consultancy services for mostly small June 2009 194 136 57 scale DWP IT applications. September 195 137 59 2009 Children: Maintenance December 196 136 60 2009 March 2010 184 135 48 Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Work June 2010 180 133 47 and Pensions what estimate he has made of the average Notes: difference between the amounts paid by clients of the 1. Figures rounded to the nearest £1. Child Support Agency on the (a) pre-2002 and (b) 2. Figures include value of maintenance collected as well as value of post-2002 scheme. [24372] maintenance direct arrangements. 859W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 860W

Jessica Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Cold Weather Payments and Pensions in how many assessed cases currently being dealt with by the Child Support Agency child Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for maintenance liability is abated to take account of shared Work and Pensions whether he made an estimate of the care arrangements; and what proportion of these cases number of people with cancer who received the cold are abated by (a) one seventh, (b) two sevenths, (c) weather payment in (a) 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009. three sevenths and (d) one half. [26442] [27866]

Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Steve Webb: The information requested is not available. Commission is responsible for the child maintenance Cold weather payments are paid automatically to system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner people receiving pension credit and to those receiving to write to my hon. Friend with the information requested certain income related benefits who are disabled, have a and I have seen the response. disabled child or a child under age five.

Letter from Stephen Geraghty: Departmental Contracts In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive Andrew Bingham: To ask the Secretary of State for reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of and Enforcement Commission. the effectiveness of quality management statements in assisting with contract decisions by his Department; You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, in and what assessment he has made of the effects on the how many assessed cases currently being dealt with by the Child Support Agency child maintenance liability is abated to take prospects for small businesses winning of contracts of account of shared care arrangements; and what proportion of such statements. [19014] these cases are abated by (a) one seventh (b) two sevenths (c) three sevenths and (d) one half. [26442] Chris Grayling: DWP, as part of its selection criteria, Information is not available on the value that maintenance will assess a bidder’s technical or professional ability, assessments have been abated by when taking into account shared including quality management. As part of the tender care arrangements. evaluation process, procurement staff must include, within the published evaluation criteria, details of any weighting Information is available on the number of nights each qualifying child on cases administered on the CSCS computer system spends system used and how the tender will be scored with with the parent with care. Information is also available on the reference to quality management. number of current scheme cases administered on the CS2 computer Bidders are required to describe what quality system with a shared care arrangement in place. However, no management measures they operate relevant to the bid robust information is available for old scheme cases administered specification. Where specific quality standards are required on the CS2 computer system or for cases administered off system. to meet technical contract requirements, bidders are A shared care arrangement is defined for current scheme cases permitted to provide evidence of equivalent or comparable as those cases where the qualifying child or children spends at processes or systems. least 52 nights per year with the non-resident parent. As at September 2010 there were 145,500 such cases, which is 22% of Evaluation criteria will clearly state the scoring attached the assessed caseload. to quality management and the minimum acceptable standard required to deliver the contract. Provided a The table shows the number of cases administered on the bidder can demonstrate their capability to deliver a CSCS computer system with a shared care arrangement in place. contract, there are no barriers that impact on the likely They are shown split by the number of nights spent with the parent with care for the qualifying child that spends the least success of small businesses winning contracts. nights with that parent. Commercial activities in DWP are determined by EU I hope you find this answer helpful. procurement rules. One of the primary objectives of the European Union is the prevention of discrimination Table 1: CSCS cases with a shared care arrangement: September 2010 and restriction on the movement of goods or services. Nights spent with parent with care Any specification, even those not subject to the EU per week Number of assessed cases rules, must ensure that they comply with this objective. 2 100 A member state or contracting authority, such as DWP, 3 1,200 cannot adopt measures that are, even potentially, restrictive. 4 6,400 Sustainable procurement considerations ensure that 5 14,600 opportunities for small businesses to bid for DWP Notes: contracts are maximised. Use of electronic procurement, 1. Figures rounded to nearest 100. division of requirements into local/regional lots and 2. A case where the child spends one night per week with the parent supplier briefings all help to improve access. with care is recorded on the CSCS computer system as 0 nights. Likewise, cases where the child spends six nights per week with the parent with care are recorded on the CSCS computer system as seven Departmental Grants nights. These categories can therefore not be separated and are therefore not shown. 3. Management information on cases administered on the CSCS Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Work computer system records the number of nights each individual child and Pensions (1) what grants have been awarded by his spends with the parent with care. It is possible that the number of Department in 2010-11 to date; what grants he plans to nights is different for children within the same case. Therefore, in the award in each of the next two years; what the monetary attached response, the child which spends the least number of nights value is of each such grant fund; and to which with the parent with care has been used in the table. organisations such grants have been made; [27862] 861W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 862W

(2) what the monetary value was of grants awarded Chris Grayling: Grants made by the Department for by his Department in 2009-10; and how much he Work and Pensions in 2009-10 and 2010-2011 are shown expects to award in grants in (a) 2010-11 and (b) in the table. 2011-12. [27865]

£ million Description of grant Paid to 2009-10 2010-111 2010-112

Grants to support expenditure on Financial Credit Unions and Community 18.0 4.6 7.9 Inclusion Development Financial Institutions Factory Support Grant A range of businesses to support the 0.5 — 0.2 employment of disabled people Future Jobs Fund Employers to create new jobs 82.5 274.9 420.0 Access to Work employers for adaptations to premises and 1.1 0.8 1.7 equipment Deprived Areas Fund City Strategy Pathfinders and other 7.7 5.5 9.7 partnership organisations Ageing Well Grant Local Government Improvement and 0.5 0.7 1.7 Development (LGID) Active at 60 Individuals, via the Community — — 1.0 Development Foundation Get Digital Project The National Institute of Adult Continuing 1.0 1.9 1.9 Education via the Department for Communities and Local Government Sure Start Maternity Grants (SSMG) individuals 138.8 82.7 142.0 Community Care Grants (CCG) individuals 140.7 83.2 142.0 1 To 31 October 2 Full year forecast Notes: 1. Factory Support Grant was a small scale aspect of Workstep intended to help improve specialist disability employment services by providing funding for supported businesses to, for example, buy new machinery or modernise the services they offer. 2. Current year figures are based on actual spend, as shown in the departmental general ledger, and forecasts which are subject to change. 3. For the purposes of this answer, grants are interpreted to be one-off payments to individuals or other entities to support the objectives of the Department. Payments which are on-going in nature, for example subsidies to local authorities for housing benefit administration, or grants in aid to non-departmental public bodies have not been included. 4. Funding for the Factory Support Grant, the Future Jobs Fund, and the Deprived Areas Fund have either already ended or will end this financial year. 5. The Department is now working through the financial implications of its spending review settlement and details are not available on future funding amounts for particular grants at present.

Departmental Regulation The Disability Discrimination (Private Clubs etc) Regulations 2005 (S.I. 2005/3258) Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The Disability Discrimination (Premises) Regulations 2006 and Pensions what regulations sponsored by his (S.I. 2006/887). Department have been revoked in the last six months. The Vaccine Damage Payment (Specified Disease) [24382] Order (S.I. 2009/2516) was revoked by the Vaccine Damage Payments (Specified Disease) (Revocation and Chris Grayling: The Employment and Support Allowance Savings) Order 2010 (S.I. 2010/1988). (Transitional Provisions, Housing Benefit and Council The Transfer of State Pensions and Benefits Regulations Tax Benefit) (Existing Awards) Regs 2010 (S.I. 2010/ (Northern Ireland) 2007 (SR (NI) 2007/286) were revoked 875) were revoked by the Employment and Support by the Transfer of State Pensions and Benefits Allowance (Transitional Provisions, Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2010 (S.I. 2010/1825). and Council Tax Benefit) (Existing Awards) (Revocation) Regulations 2010 (S.I. 2010/1906) Disability Living Allowance: Care Homes The following regulations were revoked by the Equality Act 2010 (Disability) Regulations 2010 (S.I. 2010/2128): Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The Disability Discrimination (Meaning of Disability) Regulations and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number 1996 (S.I. 1996/1455) of children likely to be affected by the implementation of the proposed withdrawal of the mobility component The Disability Discrimination (Providers of Services) (Adjustment of Premises) Regulations 2001 (S.I. 2001/3253) of disability living allowance from claimants living in residential care. [24704] The Disability Discrimination (Blind and Partially Sighted Persons) Regulations 2003 (S.I. 2003/712) Maria Miller: The spending review announced that The Disability Discrimination (Employment Field) (Leasehold Premises) Regulations 2004 (S.I. 2004/153) the mobility component of disability living allowance would be removed from adults in residential care and The Disability Discrimination (Educational Institutions) (Alteration of Leasehold Premises) Regulations 2005 (S.I. 2005/1070) children in residential schools. The Disability Discrimination (Service Providers and Public Proposals for disability living allowance reform will Authorities Carrying Out Functions) Regulations 2005 (S.I. be informed by responses to the consultation document 2005/2901) which we will publish shortly. 863W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 864W

We will be making clearer as we move towards the provision; and what geographical areas there will be for Bill exactly how the measure to cease paying mobility contracts under the Work Programme. [26265] component of DLA to people in care homes will affect particular groups. Chris Grayling: The DWP Framework for the Provision of Employment Related Support Services will be divided Employment Schemes into 11 geographical lots. The lots are: South East, South West, London, , East Midlands, Mr : To ask the Secretary of State West Midlands, North West, , for Work and Pensions how many companies have North East, Scotland, Wales. Contracts let under the expressed an interest in applying for contracts under framework may be across all lots, cover a specific lot or the Work Programme. [26262] a smaller geographical area(s) within a lot.

Chris Grayling: 102 organisations, SPV or consortia Employment Schemes: Scotland submitted bids in respect of the DWP Framework for the Provision of Employment Related Support Services. A list of organisations that submitted bids can be found Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for on the Supplying DWP website Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the likely effect of the proposed universal credit on http://www.dwp.gov.uk/supplying-dwp/ work incentives in Scotland. [25774] Those organisations that were accepted onto the framework were notified on 25 November and a list has Chris Grayling: Universal credit will make work pay. also been published on the Supplying DWP website. It will enable workers to retain more of their earnings Only those organisations that have been successful in when they enter work, providing stronger financial incentives being admitted to the framework as prime contractors to take job opportunities than under the current system. will be invited to tender for Work Programme contracts. Establishing a single withdrawal rate and eliminating Organisations will only be able to bid in lots where they the hours rules currently present in working tax credit have been successful in the framework competition. has the potential to create a much more flexible labour market, where workers will be able to work the number Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State of hours that most suits their needs and those of their (a) (b) for Work and Pensions what assumptions and employer. calculations his Department made when formulating its estimate of the market value of Work Programme The integration of in and out of work support through contracts contained in the framework agreement for universal credit will also greatly reduce the risks people the provision of employment-related support services. perceive around the continuity of financial support as [26263] they move into and leave work. We expect the impacts in Scotland to be broadly the Chris Grayling: Assumptions and calculations on the same as for Great Britain as a whole. estimated value of Work Programme contracts and indeed other contracts which will be let from the framework, Housing Benefit were developed from information on the value of existing welfare to work programmes. These took into account Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State the intention to radically simplify the array of existing for Work and Pensions pursuant to the contribution employment programmes and deliver coherent, integrated by the Minister of State for Work and Pensions of support more capable of dealing with complex and 9 November 2010, Official Report, column 154, on overlapping barriers to work. Estimates were broad in housing benefit, what the evidential basis was for his order to provide transparency to the market and to assessment of the change in private rents since November ensure that the framework would be able to meet 2008. [26345] requirements to be the principal vehicle for sourcing all employment related support services for the full life of Steve Webb: The source of the private rental data was the Framework, not just for DWP, but also for other the Find A Property index. This has been used by the eligible contracting authorities. Calculations also took DWP and wider Government since 2008, when CLG into account the need to deliver greater value for money stopped producing their own private rental index. The on future welfare to work contracts. Office for National Statistics does not publish up-to-date private rental data. Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether he plans to place any Further details of the evidential base are available at: restrictions on sub-contracting within the procurement http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wpsc-analytical-supp.pdf processes for the Work Programme. [26264] Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Grayling: There are no plans to place any Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of restrictions on sub-contracting within the procurement the likely effects on levels of housing benefit payments processes for the Work Programme. Evaluation of bids of the implementation of his Department’s decision to will, at least in part, depend on the quality of their merge high rental and low rental areas; and if he will supply chain. make a statement. [26379]

Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Steve Webb: We will be considering the areas in which for Work and Pensions what the geographical areas are local housing allowance rates are set in the context of for contracting for each type of back-to-work our proposal to uprate local housing allowance rates 865W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 866W according to the consumer price index from April 2013. Housing benefit recipients by family type and employment status in We have not as yet made any decisions on the constitution Newham, August 2010 of these areas. Of which: In HB non passported employment

Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Single with child 3,370 2,690 and Pensions whether the proposed changes to local dependents housing allowance will apply to people who are part Couple no child 800 410 way through a tenancy which was signed prior to the dependents changes coming into effect. [26632] Couple with child 4,160 3,940 dependents Steve Webb: Changes to local housing allowance Total 12,880 8,730 rates apply to customers at the anniversary of their Notes: claim. The anniversary may coincide with the date they 1. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Totals may not sum due to rounding. are due to renew a tenancy or it could fall part way 2. Housing benefit figures exclude any extended payment cases. An through the tenancy. For existing customers who will be extended payment is a payment that may be received for a further affected by changes to local housing allowance rates four weeks when they start working full-time, work more hours or from April 2011, we are allowing an additional period earn more money. of up to nine months from the anniversary of their 3. Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local authority computer claim during which they will be protected from a reduction systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate clerical returns. The data are in their local housing allowance rate. This will allow available monthly from November 2008 and August 2010 is the latest them extra time to renegotiate their rental commitment available. or, if necessary, look for alternative accommodation. 4. People claiming housing benefit not in receipt of a passported benefit are recorded as being in employment if their local authority has recorded employment income from either the main claimant, or Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Work partner of claimant (if applicable), in calculating the housing benefit and Pensions whether he plans to issue further award. guidance to local authorities on the allocation of 5. Passported status does not include recipients with unknown discretionary housing benefit. [26654] passported status. Source: Steve Webb: We are reviewing our discretionary housing August 2010 Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) payment good practice guidance to local authorities Housing Benefit: North East and plan to issue a revised version early next year.

Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for and Pensions whether he plans to make exceptions to Work and Pensions what assessment his Department the proposed limits on payments of local housing has made of the likely effect on (a) the economy of the allowance to claimants under 35 years to a shared North East and (b) housing provision of planned room rate in respect of those with (a) learning reductions in the level of housing benefit and council difficulties and (b) mental health disorders. [26698] tax benefit payments. [17752]

Steve Webb: The shared room rate already has Steve Webb: Work is under way to ascertain the exemptions which will continue to apply for people in impacts of the proposed measures and we will publish vulnerable situations. The exemptions include local authority an economic impact assessment at the time amendments and housing association tenants and those in certain to legislation are laid in Parliament. supported accommodation. Customers who receive the middle or higher rate care Housing Benefit: Worcestershire component of disability living allowance and where no one gets a carer’s allowance for them are also exempt. Mr Robin Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for We are currently considering the detailed design of this Work and Pensions how many people in (a) Worcestershire proposal, which is not due to be implemented until and (b) Worcester were in receipt of housing benefit of April 2012. more than £400 per week in the latest period for which figures are available. [17631] Housing Benefit: Newham Steve Webb: At July 2010, for housing benefit claims Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Work in the private rented sector our records show that there and Pensions how many working families in Newham are no households in Worcestershire receiving over £400 per week. are in receipt of housing benefit. [26489] Source: Steve Webb: The following table shows the number of Single housing benefit extract for July 2010. housing benefit recipients in Newham which are non passported and in employment, August 2010. Industrial Accidents: Construction Housing benefit recipients by family type and employment status in Newham, August 2010 Miss Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Of which: In and Pensions what plans the Government has to implement HB non passported employment the recommendations of the Rita Donaghy report entitled Single no child 4,550 1,690 One death is too many: enquiry into the underlying dependents cause of construction fatal accidents [26399] 867W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 868W

Chris Grayling: The Government are committed to primarily to provide face-to-face advice and guidance at the addressing the heavy toll of deaths in the construction outset of the claim and at key stages thereafter; and alternative industry which was highlighted in Baroness Donaghy’s means of service delivery such as telephony and the Internet. report. We will therefore progress those of the Donaghy In terms of plans to help those in remote areas access vacancies, recommendations accepted by the previous Administration everyone receives information, advice and guidance at the new claims interview about how to make best use of appropriate which we consider are supported by the available evidence. vacancy sources. As part of this, people receive information about For example, consistent with recommendation eight of the Internet Job Bank and Jobseeker Direct (the Jobcentre the Donaghy report, the Government have actively Plus telephony-based vacancy matching service), both of which supported the new specification for “pre-qualification” provide remote, fast and easy access to thousands of jobs. As a criteria in the construction industry, introduced by the further development, we have also launched a new application for British Standards Institution in October and which has the iPhone and Google Android systems, which offers people an the potential to radically simplify the prequalification innovative way to search for a job through their telephone handset. process for small firms tendering for construction work. Looking ahead and in transforming our labour market services Where, however, we lack firm evidence for particular still further, we aim to provide a much improved, more efficient recommendations—for example, that directors’ health automated service to help employers post and fill vacancies and jobseekers access available jobs. As part of this, the intention is to and safety duties need to be further strengthened—we extend the current job search facility to include vacancies from do not propose to take further action at this time. employer websites and other job boards; and to create secure customer profiles, which will be used to automatically notify Industrial Health and Safety: Inspections employers of suitable applicants and individuals of suitable jobs. In terms of helping people access the labour market in areas Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for with poor local transport, Jobcentre Plus advisers will offer Work and Pensions what recent representations he information, advice and guidance to claimants and provide access has received on the work of the Health and Safety to measures such as the Travel to Interview Scheme to help with the cost of attending interviews. We also administer the Adviser Executive (HSE); and how many sites were formally Discretion Fund, which is used to help customers overcome small inspected by a HSE inspector after a serious accident in challenges preventing them from taking-up the offer of employment. the latest period for which figures are available. [26624] In appropriate circumstances, the Fund can help with travel to work costs until receipt of first wages. All awards are at adviser Chris Grayling: The Secretary of State has the principal discretion, taking into account individual customer circumstances responsibility to Parliament for the Health and Safety and all awards must represent good value for taxpayer’s money. Executive and routinely receives representations on their Following the coalition Government’s announcement of a work. Recent representations are concerned with a range new, integrated work programme coupled with a more flexible of matters relating to the formulation and development Jobcentre Plus delivery model, we aim to build upon the discretionary funding currently available to give local managers the ability to of Government policy. tailor services to local and individual need. This could include the HSE’s inspectors have investigated 2,021 serious accidents provision of more help to overcome travel costs and difficulties in that occurred between 1 April 2009 and 31 March 2010, appropriate locations. although some of these investigations are still under Over and above the schemes administered directly by Jobcentre way. Plus, there are a number of agreements in place (nationally and locally) to provide people with discounted travel, for example, in These serious accidents are categorised as fatalities England and Wales, we have an agreement with the Association and major injuries, such as amputations and fractures, of Train Operating Companies, which offers a 50% discount on that were reported under the Reporting of Injuries, rail travel for longer-term unemployed people. A similar scheme is Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1995 in place with Scot Rail and while there is no UK wide discount (RIDDOR 95). scheme for bus travel, many local operators do offer discounted services to unemployed people. Jobcentre Plus: Rural Areas Jobseeker’s Allowance: Fraud

Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assistance his Department Work and Pensions how many people were prosecuted plans to give to those living in remote rural areas to (a) for offences relating to fraudulent claims for jobseeker’s access jobcentres to see what vacancies are available allowance in Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency in and (b) access the labour market in areas with poor each of the last three years. [22958] local transport. [26596] Chris Grayling: The information requested is not Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus available. is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Information on the numbers of people prosecuted for Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. benefit fraud in Scotland for the last three years for all Member with the information requested. DWP administered benefits is available in the following Letter from Darra Singh: table. The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question about what assistance his Department plans to give to those living Number prosecuted for benefit in remote rural areas to (a) access jobcentres to see what vacancies fraud in Scotland are available and (b) access the labour market in areas with poor local transport. This is something that falls within the responsibilities 2007-08 168 delegated to me as Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. 2008-09 139 Jobcentre Plus is committed to providing all customers, including 2009-10 489 those in rural areas, with the help they need to find work as Notes: quickly as possible. We do this through a combination of the Information extracted from the Fraud Referral and Intelligence largest network of offices within Government, which is used Management Information System. 869W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 870W

Jobseeker’s Allowance: Hearing Impaired Proposals for disability living allowance reform will be informed by responses to the consultation document which we will publish shortly. Mary Macleod: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what provisions are in place at We will be making clearer as we move towards the Jobcentre Plus centres to assist jobseekers with hearing Bill exactly how the measure to cease paying mobility impairments; and whether interpreters are provided at component of DLA to people in care homes will affect each such location. [24953] particular groups. Mortgage Payments Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide my hon. and Pensions whether his Department plans to provide Friend with the information requested. support to households with disabled residents who can Letter from Darra Singh: no longer afford their mortgage payments as a result of The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question changes to the rate of support for mortgage interest to asking what provisions are in place at Jobcentre Plus centres to fund alternative accommodation. [23663] assist jobseekers with hearing impairments and whether interpreters are provided at each such location. This is something that falls Steve Webb: We have no plans to increase the amount within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief Executive of paid by way of support for mortgage interest, or to Jobcentre Plus. change the current standard interest rate for this group. In Jobcentre Plus we recognise the diverse range of customers It was necessary for the Government to put support we serve and we are fully committed to providing equal accessibility for mortgage interest on a more sustainable footing, and availability of services to all customers. Customers arriving in and to better reflect mortgage costs, which is why we set a Jobcentre are met by a Customer Services Manager who identifies the standard interest rate at a level equal to the Bank of the reason for their visit and who is able to direct them appropriately. England’s published monthly average mortgage rate When a deaf or hard of hearing customer arrives at an office from 1 October. The rate is currently 3.63%. The previous the Customer Services Manager takes the customer to the Customer rate of 6.08% was too generous and resulted in the vast Service Support Leader who will communicate with them at a majority of people getting more than their eligible desk set up with a hearing loop facility, if this is appropriate. mortgage interest liability, which was unfair to taxpayers. If the customer is profoundly deaf or cannot use a hearing aid, The plans of the previous Government would have a member of staff who is British Sign Language (BSL) qualified meant that the standard interest rate would have reverted will act as interpreter. If no qualified member of staff is available, we will arrange for a communicator, for example a BSL interpreter, to a formula—the Bank of England base rate plus lip speaker or deaf/blind interpreter as appropriate, to attend the 1.58%—which, at present, would produce a rate of office and book an appointment for the customer to return then. 2.08% from January 2011. If customers wish, they may bring their own interpreters. If a There are other funding streams available to households customer provides their own professional qualified interpreter, with disabled residents, for example, Disabled Facilities they can be reimbursed with reasonable travel costs. Customers Grants and the Mortgage Rescue Scheme. often choose to bring friends and relatives to interpret. Disabled Facilities Grants are provided by local If the customer attends the Jobcentre to look for work, touch authorities to help meet the cost of adapting a property screen Jobpoints are available in our offices to search for and for the needs of a disabled person. The Mortgage access vacancies. Staff will support the customer in progressing Rescue Scheme was introduced in 2009 to help people any applications for work, for example, by making contact with in priority need, including those who are vulnerable the employer. because of old age or a physical/mental impairment. For customers with an appointment requiring an interpreter The scheme involves a Housing Association taking on we currently have three contracted providers that provide BSL full or part ownership of the property being repossessed. interpreters nationally. Jobcentre Plus is committed to providing a first class service Poverty: Children and ensuring we fully support our most vulnerable customers. I hope this information is helpful. Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many children in (a) England, Mobility Allowance: Children (b) the East of England and (c) Bedford constituency were living in families with no parents in employment in October each year from 2000 to 2010. [26539] Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) whether the removal of mobility Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. allowance for disabled children after 84 days in residential The information requested falls within the responsibility care will also apply to children in residential education of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority settings; [24964] to reply. (2) whether residential schools for disabled children Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated November 2010: will be classified as care homes for the purposes of the As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I proposed changes to the mobility element of disability have been asked to reply to your question asking how many living allowance. [24965] children in a) England b) East of England and c) Bedford Constituency were living in families with no parents in employment in October each year from 2000 to 2010. (26539) Maria Miller: The spending review announced that The figures requested come from the Annual Population Survey the mobility component of disability living allowance (APS) household datasets. These are currently available for 2004 would be removed from adults in residential care and to 2009. The attached table shows estimates for England and East children in residential schools. of England for these years. 871W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 872W

It is not possible to provide reliable estimates for Bedford Chris Grayling: A number of civil servants in DWP constituency because of small sample sizes. and other Departments were involved in preparing the As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject White Paper over a three-month period. The main work to a margin of uncertainty. This is captured in a confidence was done by members of the universal credit policy interval, defined by lower and upper bounds, such that the team in DWP which has a total of 20 staff. interval formed between the bounds would contain the true value of 95% of all possible samples. Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Table: Children1 living in families with no parent in employment in England and East of England for Work and Pensions what (a) assumptions and (b) Thousand calculations his Department made when modelling the likely effects of the implementation of the universal January to Lower Upper December Estimate bound2 bound2 credit; and if he will place in the Library a copy of each briefing document on these calculations provided to (i) England 2004 1,639 1,591 1,687 Ministers and (ii) external bodies. [26250] 2005 1,630 1,582 1,678 2006 1,645 1,596 1,693 Chris Grayling: Chapter 7 of the recent White Paper, 2007 1,613 1,564 1,662 ‘Universal Credit: Welfare That Works’, and the 2008 1,670 1,620 1,721 accompanying impact assessment set out the assumptions and calculations used to model the effects of universal 2009 1,707 1,655 1,759 credit. The briefing documents provided to Ministers that covered these calculations are restricted policy East of 2004 126 111 141 development documents. The Department’s Ministers England and officials have had numerous discussions over recent 2005 124 109 140 months with external bodies on the Government’s proposals 2006 128 112 144 for benefit reform. 2007 130 114 147 2008 141 123 158 Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State 2009 133 115 150 for Work and Pensions how much funding he plans to allocate to the implementation of the universal credit 1 Children refers to children under 16. [26260] 2 95% confidence interval which means that from all samples in 2011-12. possible there would be 95% certainty that the true estimate would lie within the lower and upper bounds. Chris Grayling: The Treasury has allocated £2 billion Source: investment funding to the Department of Work and APS household dataset Pensions for universal credit over the spending review Private Finance Initiative Scheme period. Plans on the allocation of funding are in development. Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many of his Department’s properties Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for that are managed under a private finance initiative Work and Pensions what timetable he has put in place for the introduction of the universal credit; and if he scheme are empty. [20810] will make a statement. [26631] Chris Grayling: DWP does not have any empty properties managed under a private finance initiative. Chris Grayling: Introducing universal credit will be a very substantial exercise with around 19 million individual existing awards of benefits and tax credits becoming Social Rented Housing: Reform part of the new benefit. The provisional timetable is as follows, subject to detailed design work done in partnership Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Work with HMRC and local authorities. The current intention and Pensions whether he has had discussions with the is to manage transition to universal credit in three Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government stages: on the implications for the social rented housing market October 2013 to April 2014: all new claims for out of work of his Department’s welfare reforms. [18432] support will be treated as claims to universal credit. No new jobseekers allowance, employment and support allowance, income Steve Webb: A number of discussions have been held support and housing benefit claims will be accepted. Customers between the Department for Work and Pensions and transitioning from out of work benefits into work will move Communities and Local Government at, both ministerial onto universal credit if they are eligible. and official level. These discussions will continue as we April 2014: no new claims will be made to tax credits. develop our plans. April 2014 to October 2017: we would begin to work through transferring existing case to the new benefit. Social Security Benefits Social Security Benefits: Adoption Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the level of civil service staffing resources which were and Pensions whether his Department provides financial allocated to the preparation of the White Paper on support for adoptive parents who are classified as casual universal credit. [26249] employees. [24148] 873W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 874W

Maria Miller: Statutory adoption pay enables adopters suspected frauds; how many cases involved each type to take a period of leave from work when a new child of benefit; and how many cases involved suspected acts joins the family. It is paid by employers to employees of fraud relating to more than one type of benefit. who satisfy qualifying conditions based on length of [24550] employment and a minimum level of earnings. Casual employees may receive statutory adoption pay if they Chris Grayling: Information on the following is held can satisfy the qualifying conditions. but would incur disproportionate cost to collate: Income support is available in certain circumstances. (a) what benefits were involved in the suspected frauds, Single people who have a child placed with them prior (b) how many cases involved each type of benefit, and to an adoption have access to income support. Once the (c) how many cases involved suspected acts of fraud relating to adoption has taken place an adoptive parent can continue more than one type of benefit.. to receive income support if they fall within another prescribed group, for example if they are a lone parent Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work or a carer. A parent may also be entitled to income and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 10 November support if they are taking leave from their employment 2010, Official Report, column 350W, on social security under the parental leave provisions. benefits: fraud, how many of the defendants have convictions or police cautions for other offences. Social Security Benefits: Fraud [24551]

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Grayling: The information on how many of the and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 10 November defendants have convictions or police cautions for other 2010, Official Report, column 350W, on social security offences is held but can be provided only at disproportionate benefits: fraud, what the (a) monetary value was of the cost. suspected fraud in the 550 warrant cases, (b) average monetary value per case was of suspected fraud and Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (c) monetary value was of the suspected fraud in each and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 10 November of the 10 cases where that value is highest; and what the 2010, Official Report, column 350W, on social security dates of issue were of the 10 longest standing arrest benefits: fraud, what were the (a) names of the persons warrants. [24549] issued with arrest warrants, (b) their last known addresses or whereabouts and (c) the monetary value Chris Grayling: Of the 550 warrants held by the of the suspected fraud in each case. [24719] Department on 14 October 2010, information was held centrally on 188 cases. This number has now been Chris Grayling: The Data Protection Act 1998 and reduced to 156 following the execution of 32 warrants. Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights Information on the remaining 362 warrants not held provide no legal gateway to release information containing: centrally can be provided only at disproportionate cost. (a) names of the persons issued with arrest warrants (a) The total monetary value of fraud in the 156 cases is (b) their last known addresses or whereabouts. £1,273,314.26. Of the 550 warrants held by the Department on (b) The average monetary value of fraud in the 156 cases is 14 October 2010, information is held centrally on 188 £8,162.27 cases. Information on the remaining 362 cases is not (c) The monetary value in each of the 10 cases where that held centrally, warrants having been issued prior to roll value is highest is shown in the following table. out of an IT case management system in November 10 highest value warrant cases 2009. £ The monetary value of the 362 cases is held but can 1. 58,550.01 be provided only at disproportionate cost. 2. 55,494.13 Of the 188 arrest warrants mentioned above, 32 have 3. 54,864.22 been executed since 14 October 2010, reducing the 4. 53,319.36 number to156, on which information is held centrally. 5. 46,406.20 (c)The monetary value of the 156 cases can be found 6. 39,906.59 in the following table. 7. 37,465.39 Number and monetary value of 156 warrant cases 8. 33,735.64 Number Amount of overpaid benefit (£) 9. 32,121.02 10. 28,253.76 1-13 0 Total 440,116.32 14 77.95 Source: 15 259.28 FRAIMS 16 328.29 Information on the dates of issue of the 10 longest 17 409.50 standing arrest warrants is not available centrally and 18 429.66 can be provided only at disproportionate cost. 19 517.07 20 587.88 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 21 776.81 and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 10 November 22 841.44 2010, Official Report, column 350W, on social security 23 854.62 benefits: fraud, what benefits were involved in the 24 862.30 875W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 876W

Number and monetary value of 156 warrant cases Number and monetary value of 156 warrant cases Number Amount of overpaid benefit (£) Number Amount of overpaid benefit (£)

25 866.00 87 4,765.10 26 890.40 88 4,815.42 27 936.44 89 4,927.90 28 939.12 90 4,928.80 29 1,066.65 91 5,461.84 30 1,148.21 92 5,463.05 31 1,253.76 93 5,512.54 32 1,417.60 94 5,599.80 33 1,483.54 95 5,711.28 34 1,548.10 96 6,011.93 35 1,617.01 97 6,116.89 36 1,711.84 98 6,120.89 37 1,817.75 99 6,487.05 38 1,831.06 100 6,487.53 39 1,847.75 101 6,859.82 40 1,968.29 102 7,017.09 41 2,005.51 103 7,150.94 42 2,028.74 104 7,201.96 43 2,110.33 105 7,356.10 44 2,124.84 106 7,674.28 45 2,158.64 107 7,815.00 46 2,203.43 108 7,829.00 47 2,207.51 109 7,972.47 48 2,209.20 110 8,034.17 49 2,249.04 111 8,267.87 50 2,314.50 112 8,336.33 51 2,323.34 113 8,406.11 52 2,428.39 114 8,489.62 53 2,429.41 115 9,038.97 54 2,431.22 116 9,081.42 55 2,478.56 117 9,575.76 56 2,533.40 118 9,768.85 57 2,674.32 119 9,931.33 58 2,816.69 120 10,349.52 59 2,867.64 121 10,421.42 60 2,917.10 122 10,540.63 61 2,962.23 123 11,261.49 62 2,976.41 124 12,110.54 63 2,995.07 125 12,175.86 64 3,014.35 126 12,387.59 65 3,265.20 127 12,620.73 66 3,311.41 128 12,819.05 67 3,342.81 129 13,015.24 68 3,389.50 130 13,893.95 69 3,473.29 131 14,007.92 70 3,536.55 132 14,140.00 71 3,598.53 133 15,339.59 72 3,632.38 134 15,353.00 73 3,662.47 135 16,105.99 74 3,678.02 136 16,332.74 75 3,821.10 137 17,146.00 76 3,840.90 138 17,225.54 77 3,845.21 139 17,820.01 78 3,860.88 140 18,368.30 79 3,924.65 141 19,481.46 80 4,036.68 142 20,816.00 81 4,131.49 143 21,049.35 82 4,234.76 144 21,239.32 83 4,367.23 145 25,286.04 84 4,396.97 146 25,722.59 85 4,422.05 147 28,253.76 86 4,430.69 148 32,121.02 877W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 878W

Number and monetary value of 156 warrant cases Chris Grayling: We expect that by the time it is fully Number Amount of overpaid benefit (£) implemented, universal credit will have moved 350,000 children and 500,000 working-age adults out of poverty, 149 33,735.64 due to increased benefit entitlement and improved take-up 150 37,465.39 rates. This is estimated using the Department’s policy 151 39,906.59 simulation model. These poverty impacts do not take 152 46,406.20 any account of any positive impacts of more people 153 53,319.36 moving into work. 154 54,864.22 155 55,494.13 Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for 156 58,550.01 Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the Source: number of people who will no longer be in poverty in FRAIMS The Department will instigate criminal proceedings irrespective of (a) Haslingden and (b) Hyndburn as a result of the amount of overpayment where it is in the public interest to do so. implementation of his proposed reforms to the welfare For example, an attempt by a fraudster to falsely obtain a national system. [26170] insurance number to gain access to the benefit system may have criminal proceedings instigated against them whether or not there was an overpayment. Chris Grayling: The information is not available for the geographical areas requested. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work We estimate that for Great Britain, by the time it is and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 10 November fully implemented, the impact of universal credit will be 2010, Official Report, column 350W, on social security a net poverty reduction of 350,000 children and 500,000 benefits: fraud, what steps are being taken to recover working-age adults. the suspected fraud identified in the cases; what steps he plans to take to recover from them the legal and Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for other costs of pursuing those cases; what estimate he Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the made of the cost to the public purse of taking legal and number of people likely to have their (a) housing other action to pursue those cases; and what steps are benefit, (b) incapacity benefit and (c) jobseeker’s allowance being taken to arrest the persons concerned in the 550 withdrawn as a result of implementation of the proposals cases. [24720] in his Department’s White Paper on welfare reform. [26189] Chris Grayling: Once a decision has been made that an overpayment is recoverable the steps taken to effect Chris Grayling: No one will experience a reduction in recovery include deductions from ongoing benefits, the benefit they are receiving as a result of the introduction instalments, a lump sum or through the courts. of universal credit. At the point of transition onto the Overpayments are not written off if the debtor cannot new system, those households whose circumstances remain be immediately located. Comprehensive efforts are made unchanged and who would otherwise experience a reduction to trace debtors and debts may be pursued over a in income will receive cash protection to make up the considerable period of time. difference. The Department seeks prosecution costs awards in all cases: it is not limited to those dealt with by warrant. Universal Credit: Welfare Standard costs are £100.00 in guilty plea and £250.00 in not guilty plea cases heard in the magistrates courts. In the Crown court, applications for prosecution costs Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State start at £350.00 and rise substantially depending on the for Work and Pensions with reference to paragraph 14 seriousness, complexity and plea entered. Decisions to of his White Paper entitled Universal Credit: welfare award prosecution costs are made by presiding magistrates that works, when he plans to set out proposals for a or judges on a case by case basis. new system of financial sanctions to provide greater incentives for people to meet their responsibilities. Information is not available of the cost to the public purse of taking legal and other action to pursue the 550 [24900] cases. Chris Grayling: Our current proposals for financial The Department has nominated staff whose duties sanctions are set out in chapter three of our White include checking all outstanding warrants every month Paper, ‘Universal Credit: welfare that works’. against departmental records and informing the warrant holder, who is normally either based at the local police Universal credit will make sure that work pays. In or court, of changes and requesting immediate execution return, claimants can reasonably be expected to look of warrants. The responsibility to arrest rests with the for and prepare for work. police. We also believe that it is fair to ask some claimants to do more to find work in return for receiving current Social Security Benefits: Reform benefits and ahead of the introduction of universal credit we intend to increase the level of labour market Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for conditionality applied to some claimants; introduce a Work and Pensions what the evidential basis is for the claimant commitment to ensure claimants fully understand estimate in his Department’s White Paper on welfare what is expected of them; improve the sanctions regime reform that his proposed benefit reforms will take so that it more effectively encourages claimants to meet 300,000 people out of poverty; and over what period he their responsibilities; and introduce full-time mandatory expects this to be achieved. [26169] work activity. 879W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 880W

These changes will form the basis of the labour sufferers and we had hoped that the judgment would market conditionality and sanctions system under universal have provided a general principle on how these policies credit. should deal with their mesothelioma claims. The court Those measures that require primary legislation will decided that the policies should be interpreted based on form part of the Welfare Reform Bill to be introduced the actual policy wording, which means that some in the new year. sufferers may not be able to claim compensation if the insurance policy was worded in such a way that prevents Vacancies: Peterborough a claim from being made. We expect this judgment to be appealed to the Supreme Court. Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State In February 2010 the previous Government published for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of their consultation document, ‘AccessingCompensation— the number of vacancies for (a) full-time and (b) Supporting people who need to trace employers’ liability part-time employment in Peterborough city council insurance’, which set out proposals for people who need area on (i) 1 April 2008, (ii) 1 April 2009, (iii) 1 April to find their employers’ liability insurance policies in 2010 and (iv) 1 September 2010; and if he will make a order to claim compensation. The consultation closed on 5 May 2010. There were two proposals; firstly an statement. [21162] Employers’ Liability Tracing Office, that would manage Chris Grayling: The information requested is in the a database of EL policies. Secondly, an Employers’ following tables. Liability Insurance Bureau which would be a compensation fund of last resort for those individuals who are unable The figures provided relate just to vacancies notified to trace EL insurance records, ensuring they are able to to Jobcentre Plus and, as such, represent a market share receive compensation for injuries or diseases sustained of vacancies throughout the whole economy. during the course of their employment. We are in active Comprehensive estimates of all job vacancies and not discussions with all stakeholders on how this situation just those notified to Jobcentre Plus, are available from can be addressed and we will publish our response to the ONS Vacancy Survey. However, the ONS survey is the consultation in due course. currently designed to provide national estimates only. August 2010 is the most recent available data. Number of notified vacancies for the months of April 2008, April CABINET OFFICE 2009, April 2010 and August 2010: Peterborough local authority Date Full-time vacancies Part-time vacancies Banks: Finance

April 2008 973 198 April 2009 608 228 Mr MacNeil: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet April 2010 1,113 278 Office whether the Office for National Statistics calculation of public sector net debt takes account of the recapitalisation August 2010 1,451 420 of banks. [27859] Number of live unfilled vacancies for the months of April 2008, April 2009, April 2010 and August 2010: Peterborough local authority Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Date Full-time vacancies Part-time vacancies responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply to the hon. Member. A April 2008 1,336 221 copy of their response will be placed in the Library. April 2009 500 146 April 2010 813 252 Big Society Bank August 2010 918 419 Source: Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Minister for Jobcentre Plus Labour Market System. the Cabinet Office by what date he expects the Big Asbestos: Employers’ Liability Society Bank to (a) be established and (b) commence distributing funds. [27275]

Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hurd: The Government aim to have some functions Work and Pensions if he will bring forward proposals to of the Big Society Bank in place by April, then building ensure that those with asbestos-related illnesses are towards a fully operational Bank. It will be ready to eligible to claim on employers’ insurance if the exposure make initial investments by early summer, which is to asbestos occurred while at work. [24113] when we expect the first dormant accounts money will become available. Chris Grayling: The Employers’ Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act 1969 requires employers carrying on Charity Commission business in Great Britain to insure their liability to their employees for bodily injury or disease sustained in the Mrs Ellman: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet course of their employment. This Act ensures that Office what assessment he has made of the proposed those with asbestos-related diseases can claim compensation changes to the operation of the Charity Commission; against their employers’ liability insurance, where the and if he will make a statement. [26453] employer has been negligent in exposing them to asbestos while at work. Mr Hurd: The Charity Commission, like other However, a recent Court of Appeal case has considered Government Departments, is facing tough decisions how the wording of these employers’ liability insurance about its future priorities following the spending review. policies affects civil compensation for mesothelioma It is undertaking a strategic review to focus on the key 881W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 882W priorities for its future work, including seeking the Emergencies views of the public and other stakeholders. In addition, the statutory review of the Charities Act 2006 which is Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet due to take place in 2011 will consider potential changes Office what assessment he has made of the likely effects to the legislative framework for charities and the Charity of the outcomes of the comprehensive spending review Commission. on his Department’s civil contingencies programmes. The Charity Commission’s strategic review is currently [26629] under way and it would be premature to speculate on the outcome, but I am confident that the Charity Mr Maude: The Government’s plans for changes in Commission can be an effective regulator of charities in the United Kingdom’s civil contingencies programmes, England and Wales within the resources allocated in its within the resources available through the 2010 spending spending review settlement. review, are set out in chapter 4 of the strategic defence and security review published on 19 October. Community Organisers The need for resilience to all kinds of emergency is identified in the National Security Strategy as a priority Alex Cunningham: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet task. The role of the Cabinet Office is to co-ordinate Office what roles and responsibilities the proposed Government-wide resilience planning and programmes, community organisers will have; and what mechanisms and will continue therefore to be an important task for he plans to put in place to monitor and assess their the Department. effectiveness. [27300] Football: South Africa Mr Hurd: Community organisers will act as a catalyst for more social action, supporting all parts of the community (including under-represented and disadvantaged Graham Evans: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet groups and individuals), to express their needs and Office how much his Department spent on attendance issues, as well as identify opportunities and resources. at the 2010 FIFA World cup. [26151] Through supporting communities to take action, they will: Mr Hurd: The Cabinet Office did not spend any (a) Build capacity of the community they serve by helping the money on attendance at the 2010 FIFA World cup. community take action on the issues that matter most to them; (b) Help the community challenge vested interests and drive Iraq Committee of Inquiry: Public Appointments change in public and private sector organisations and in the community; Mr Llwyd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office (c) Build self-reliance, individual and collective responsibility; (1) what skills and experience were identified as being (d) Encourage diverse people to work with others to improve required for the role of Secretary to the Iraq Inquiry; the quality of life locally; how many candidates were identified as having such (e) Identify local leaders who can carry forward actions; skills and experience; and on what basis the successful (f) Support and link new and existing neighbourhood groups candidate was selected; [26897] (thereby supporting the activity of the Community First programme, a targeted grants programme, currently under development). (2) what steps were taken in the process of appointment of the Secretary to the Iraq Inquiry (a) to identify The Office for Civil Society is currently procuring a potential conflicts of interest and (b) to ensure that any national partner to further develop, manage and implement such conflicts did not affect the independence of the the community organisers programme at arms length inquiry. [26898] from Government. This ensures that community organisers will be accountable to the national partner, while remaining free from political influence. Mr Hurd: The Cabinet Secretary decided to nominate the Secretary to the Iraq Inquiry and agreed the The effectiveness of the community organisers will appointment with the Chairman of the Inquiry. Both also be measured by the success they have in enabling the Cabinet Secretary and the Chairman of the Inquiry the communities to take successful actions for change, agreed that the Secretary to the Inquiry should be a on the priorities that the communities have identified. senior individual in the civil service ideally with previous Community organisers will be accountable to the involvement in Iraq issues. community they are supporting as well as any institutions which support them. The Chairman of the Inquiry has told the Cabinet Secretary that, in agreeing to the appointment, he was aware of the candidate’s role in the Foreign and Defence Deaths: Winter Policy (formerly the Defence and Overseas Policy) Secretariat in the Cabinet Office from November 2004, Valerie Vaz: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and, given the professional standards of the senior civil Office what recent discussions he has had with ministerial service, saw no potential conflict of interest with her colleagues on responsibility for steps to prevent excess appointment as Secretary to the Inquiry that would, in winter deaths. [26283] his view, affect the independence of the Inquiry.

Mr Maude: Officials from all key Departments are in Mr Llwyd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office regular contact on a wide range of winter resilience which of his Department’s human resources procedures issues, including steps to reduce the number of excess were followed in the selection of the (a) secretary and deaths over the winter period. (b) press secretary to the Iraq Inquiry. [26899] 883W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 884W

Mr Hurd: The roles were filled by applying the managed BIG Fund, to develop arrangements for monitoring the move policy in accordance with the Cabinet Office outcomes achieved by successful applicants. human resources procedures. The Transition Fund was launched on 30 November and is open for applications until 21 January 2011. National Citizen Service Lindsay Roy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Minister for Office what assessment he has made of the potential the Cabinet Office on what dates Ministers in the contribution to the Big Society initiative of proposed Cabinet Office have met Lord Wei to discuss the changes in his Department’s funding of community National Citizen Service. [27274] groups and charities. [27445]

Mr Hurd: Ministers in the Cabinet Office meet with Mr Hurd: Civil Society cannot be immune from the Lord Wei frequently to discuss many subjects in his need to reduce the deficit, but the allocation of around capacity as Government adviser on Big Society, including £470 million to the Office for Civil Society within the National Citizen Service (NCS). Information relating Cabinet Office budget shows our support in very tight to internal discussions and advice is not normally disclosed. circumstances. Charities, communities and social enterprises have a Alex Cunningham: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet tremendous role to play in building the Big Society, Office what plans he has for the role of the National through their ability to galvanise community action, Citizen Service in providing public services; and what provide better public services and represent and empower plans he has to monitor and assess the service’s performance communities. We will use our settlement to support in that role. [27299] them in this work, making it easier to set up and run a charity or social enterprise, and easier for such organisations Mr Hurd: National Citizen Service (NCS) is a scheme to access finance and work with the state. to help young people to serve their communities and to While Big Society opens up many opportunities for develop personally. It is not envisaged that NCS will be the sector, we recognise however that the sector is used to provide public services, although as part of exposed during the transitional period leading up to their summer NCS experience there may be opportunities them, and so the spending review settlement therefore for young people to volunteer with, and learn more includes a £100 million transition fund for the sector in about, public service providers in their area. England. Funding for Charities and community Groups An independent evaluation will be conducted to assess outside England is largely a matter for devolved the impact of National Citizen Service during the pilot administrations. phase. Lindsay Roy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Minister for Office what assessment he has made of the likely effects the Cabinet Office what procurement process his on (a) community groups and (b) charities of changes Department undertook for the pilots of the National to their funding as a result of the outcome of the Citizen Service. [27450] Comprehensive Spending Review. [27451]

Mr Hurd: Cabinet Office conducted a fully open and Mr Hurd: It is currently too early to evaluate the competitive process to select the providers of 2011 impact of the comprehensive spending review on (a) National Citizen Service (NCS) pilots. This involved a community groups and (b) charities. However the Cabinet public invitation of expressions of interest from any Office has worked with partners in the sector, across organisation or group of organisations interested in Government and the Third Sector Research Centre to running NCS pilots in 2011, followed by the invitation examine the exposure of the sector to public spending of full proposals from organisations and consortiums reductions and to mitigate potential impacts. shortlisted at the expression of interest stage. The Big Society presents a great opportunity for voluntary and community groups, as we open up public Third Sector: Finance services and devolve power; and the Government are therefore committed to supporting the sector through Alex Cunningham: To ask the Minister for the this transitional period. This includes: a £100 million Cabinet Office what steps his Department plans to take Transition Fund to help organisations with shortfalls in to monitor the effectiveness of the transition fund for the short-term; publishing evidence and best practice to charities, voluntary groups and social enterprises. support government at all levels to make cuts wisely and [27302] in partnership with the sector; and, setting out policy measures to open up new sources of funding and help Mr Hurd: The Transition Fund is a significant fund the sector maximise new opportunities in the strategy that will provide much needed and immediate support document ‘Building a Stronger Civil Society’. for charities, voluntary groups and social enterprises to Funding for charities and community groups outside help them take on an even bigger role in this country in England is largely a matter for devolved Administrations. the medium to long term. Our key aim is to make this support available quickly, so that organisations can Written Questions: Government Responses make the necessary changes to make the transition to a tighter funding environment and take advantage of the Mr Amess: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office opportunities presented by the Big Society. The Office (1) if he will make it his policy that guidance on for Civil Society has worked with the fund manager, answering round robin questions produced by his 885W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 886W

Department in respect of questions tabled in (a) the Abortions by age group, strategic health authority and number of House of Lords and (b) House of Commons is previous abortions, residents of England and Wales, 2009 circulated to departments within three days of the Age group question being tabled; and if he will make a statement; Strategic Number of health previous [26648] authority abortions 18-24 25-29 (2) what recent estimate he has made of the number of questions to Government tabled in the House of Total 76,900 40,634 Lords that remain unanswered after 10 working days as a result of the timing of circulation of guidance on East of 0 4,616 1,969 answering round robins; what recent representations he England has received from Cabinet colleagues about the issue; 1 1,434 1,020 and if he will make a statement. [26649] 2—277 3ormore — 98 Mr Maude: All Ministers are responsible and accountable for the answers given to parliamentary questions within Total 6,383 3,364 specified deadlines. In the case of questions that are deemed to be “round robin”, The Guide to Parliamentary East 0 3,898 1,485 Work, published by the Leader of the House of Commons Midlands www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/government-business/ 1 1,021 660 parliamentary-business.aspx 2—164 states that Departments should not delay preparing an 3ormore — 57 answer until “round robin” advice is provided, and Total 5,121 2,366 should not miss the target deadlines for this reason.

London 0 10,691 6,505 1 4,556 3,662 HEALTH 2 — 1,103 3 or more — 462 Answers received for publication on Total 16,555 11,732 Monday 29 November 2010.

Abortion North East 0 2,490 883 1 630 415 Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2—102 how many women aged (a) 18 to 24 years and (b) 25 3ormore — 28 to 30 years in each strategic health authority area who Total 3,230 1,428 had had (i) one, (ii) two, (iii) three, (iv) four, (v) five, (vi) six, (vii) seven, (viii) eight, (ix) nine and (x) 10 or more North West 0 8,070 3,078 previous abortions had an abortion in 2009. [26652] 1 2,467 1,530 Anne Milton: Information on previous abortions by 2—353 age group and strategic health authority in 2009 is 3 or more — 108 shown in the following table. The data have been provided Total 11,016 5,069 for age groups 25 to 29 years for consistency with data published in the Department’s statistical bulletin. Information on previous abortions is extracted from the South Central 0 3,190 1,392 HSA4 abortion notification forms submitted to the 1 993 631 chief medical officer (CMO). These data show the total 2—176 number of abortions notified to CMO and not data for 3ormore — 53 individual women as more than one form may be received Total 4,402 2,252 for a woman in a calendar year. Abortions by age group, strategic health authority and number of previous abortions, residents of England and Wales, 2009 South East 0 3,671 1,429 Age group 1 1,212 865 Strategic Number of 2—219 health previous 3ormore — 81 authority abortions 18-24 25-29 Total 5,172 2,594 England and 0 55,086 23,817 Wales 1 17,746 12,392 South West 0 4,209 1,520 2 — 3,262 1 1,096 702 3 — 828 2—144 4 — 242 3ormore — 44 5—70Total 5,520 2,410 6ormore — — 887W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 888W

Abortions by age group, strategic health authority and number of (c) Princess Royal Hospital, Farnborough in each of previous abortions, residents of England and Wales, 2009 the last five years. [26266] Age group Strategic Number of Mr Simon Burns: This information is not collected in health previous authority abortions 18-24 25-29 the format requested. The information that is available is shown in the following table. West 0 6,028 2,361 Attendances at accident and emergency departments, 2005-06 to 2009-10 Midlands First attendances 1 2,044 1,303 Org name 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2 — 354 Bromley Hospitals 82,418 86,132 84,202 84,162 — 3ormore — 95 NHS Trust Total 8,546 4,113 Queen Elizabeth 98,280 98,798 99,534 98,224 — Hospital NHS Trust Queen Mary’s Sidcup 71,241 71,802 74,060 80,273 — Yorkshire and 0 5,295 2,045 NHS Trust the Humber South London — — — — 274,634 1 1,527 1,065 Healthcare NHS Trust 2 — 258 Notes: 3ormore — 95 1. Data is provided by NHS Trust. Total 7,101 3,463 2. Data provided are first attendances at the trusts A&E departments. Source: Department of Health form Quarterly Monitoring of Accident and Emergency Wales 0 2,928 1,150 1 766 539 2 — 112 Barnet General Hospital: Private Finance Initiative 3ormore — 42 Total 3,854 1,843 Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Health ‘—’ = Suppressed value less than 10 (between 0 and 9) or where a what proportion of the running costs of Barnet presented total would reveal a suppressed value when used with General Hospital was paid to the private finance previously published tables. This is in line with Office for National initiative provider in each year from 2005 to 2009; and Statistics guidance for the release of abortion statistics 2005. if he will estimate the proportion to be paid to the Abortion: Marriage private finance initiative provider in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011. [26643] Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of women who had an abortion in Mr Simon Burns: The information is not available in 2009 were married at the time of the abortion; what the the format requested. However, data for net operating modal (a) age of the women, (b) length gestation of expenses for Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals National the pregnancy, (c) number of previous children born Health Service Trust in respect of its private finance to the women and (d) number of previous abortions initiative (PFI) scheme are set out in the following table. undergone by the women was; and what the most Data are not held centrally for 2010-11 or 2011-12. common legal grounds was under which such abortions Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust: Proportion of total were performed. [26413] operating expenses relating to PFI Percentage of total revenue Anne Milton: The information requested can be found expenditure relating to PFI in the following table. 2005-06 5.5 Most likely1 conditions for married women2 having abortions in 2009, residents of England and Wales 2006-07 4.8 Total 2007-08 4.0 abortions Number Number 2008-09 3.6 to of of 2009-10 3.3 married Gestation previous previous women Age weeks children abortions Ground Notes: 1. The source of the data is the audited summarisation schedules of England 326,971 29 7 2 0 C the trust for 2005-06 to 2009-10. and 2. The percentages provided represent the net operating expenses in Wales respect of PFI schemes as a proportion of total operating expenses. 1 Statistical mode (highest frequency). 3. 2005-06 to 2008-09 figures compiled under UK generally accepted 2 Includes civil partnership. accounting practice. 3 15% of total abortions. 4. 2009-10 accounts were compiled under international finance reporting Note: standards. Ground C: that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk: greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman. Basophobia: NHS Accident and Emergency Departments Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what treatments for basophobia are available on the how many people were treated in the accident and NHS; whether he expects new treatments to be available emergency department in (a) Queen Mary’s Hospital, in the next two years; and if he will make a statement; Sidcup (b) Queen Elizabeth Hospital, and [26493] 889W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 890W

(2) what steps his Department has taken to increase www.rcm.org.uk/college/policy-practice/consultations/past- the standard of healthcare for people diagnosed with consultations/nhs-white-paper-consultations/ basophobia since 1990; and if he will make a Royal College of Psychiatrists: statement; [26494] www.rcpsych.ac.uk/policy/policyandparliamentary/projects/ (3) whether he has made an estimate of the number of live/whitepaper.aspx (a) men and (b) women in each age group in each health authority area who were diagnosed with basophobia Cancer: Waiting Lists in each of the last three years; [26495] (4) whether his Department has commissioned research Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health into (a) basophobia and (b) conditions related to (1) what estimate he has made of the average waiting basophobia in the last three years; and if he will make a time to see a cancer specialist in each year of the statement; [26496] comprehensive spending review period; [26526] (5) whether his Department has commissioned research (2) what the average waiting time to see a cancer into the (a) causes and (b) prevention of basophobia specialist was in each primary care trust area in England since 1990; and if he will make a statement. [26497] in the latest period for which figures are available. [26527] Paul Burstow: Basophobia, a fear of falling, is one of a large number of specific phobias that generally respond Paul Burstow: The Department has made no projections well to cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) although it of performance for the all cancer two week wait and is important that physical health issues that might make does not hold information on average waiting times for someone more likely to fall, such as low blood pressure, these services. In the most recent period for which are checked out before psychological treatment is started. statistics are available (Quarter 1 2010-11) 95.5% of CBT is now increasingly available on the national health patients urgently referred with suspected cancer by their service as a result of the Improving Access to Psychological general practitioner (GP) were seen within two weeks. Therapies programme which began in 2008 and is about Statistics on average waiting times for cancer services half-way through its nationwide roll-out. The Chancellor are not collected centrally. However, primary care trust announced further funding in the spending review to (PCT) based performance statistics for the all cancer complete this roll-out by 2014-15. These local psychological two week wait were published for the first time in therapies services, which are delivered in primary care, September this year and can be found at the following are ideal for patients with specific phobias like basophobia link: because of the ease with which therapists can link with www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ the patient’s general practitioner. PublicationsStatistics/DH_119478 With regard to research into the condition, the usual The most recent statistics available are for the year practice of the Department’s National Institute for 2009-10 and show that between 1 April 2009 and 31 March Health Research (NIHR) is not to ring-fence funds for 2010 94.9% of patients urgently referred by their GP expenditure on particular topics: research proposals in with suspected cancer were first seen by a specialist all areas compete for the funding available. within two weeks. Information on the number of patients urgently referred by their GP with suspected cancer British Medical Association: Competition who were first seen by a specialist within two weeks, broken down by PCT in England, has been placed in the Library. Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations he has received from the (a) British Cataracts: Surgery Medical Association, (b) Royal College of Nursing and (c) Royal Colleges on competition in the provision Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for of health services. [26533] Health what steps he is taking to widen choice for patients undergoing cataract surgery in the NHS; and if Mr Simon Burns: The Department received over 6000 he will make a statement. [26281] responses to the White Paper consultation and these are being considered carefully. The Government’s response Mr Simon Burns: We are committed to extending will be published in due course. choice for all national health service patients and service The British Medical Association, Royal College of users, including those who are referred for elective care Nursing and other Royal Colleges responded to such as cataract treatment. We are currently consulting Government’s consultation document: “Liberating on proposals for giving patients and service users greater the NHS: Regulating healthcare providers”. A copy of choice and control over their care and we will publish the consultation document has already been placed in our response along with more detailed policy proposals the Library. early next year. Details of their responses to consultation can be found at: Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease British Medical Association: www.bma.org.uk/healthcare_policy/nhs_white_paper/ Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health consultationpaperswp.jsp whether his Department made an estimate of the effect on the number of (a) emergency hospital admissions Royal College of General Practitioners: and (b) inpatient bed days of increasing the rate of www.rcgp.org.uk/policy/liberating_the_nhs.aspx early diagnosis for chronic obstructive pulmonary Royal College of Midwives: disease. [26125] 891W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 892W

Mr Simon Burns: The consultation on a strategy for to deal with the problem’, published by the Department services for chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and the Health Protection Agency, makes clear prompt published earlier this year, included publication of an testing is crucial. A copy has been placed in the Library. impact assessment which included estimates of the impact Expert advice is that screening of patients without of the strategy as a whole on the numbers and costs of symptoms for Clostridium difficile infection is unnecessary, emergency hospital admissions. No explicit estimates as current evidence indicates that it is not clinically were made relating to in-patient bed days, or to the effective. specific impact of improving the rate of early diagnosis of the disease. The consultation documents have already Day Care: Greater London been placed in the Library, and can be found on the Department’s website at: Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Health http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/www.dh.gov.uk/ whether he has made an estimate of the likely change in en/Consultations/Liveconsultations/DH_112977 the number of (a) daycare centres and (b) residential homes in (i) West Ham constituency and (ii) Newham Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in the next 12 months. [26485] what recent assessment he has made of the stage of disease at which chronic obstructive pulmonary disease is most frequently diagnosed; and whether his Department Mr Simon Burns: Care homes are operated by local holds information for benchmarking purposes on the councils or independent—private and charitable/ diagnosis of that disease in other EU member states. voluntary—organisations. Day care is not a regulated service; councils are free to take their own decisions on [26128] its provision. Mr Simon Burns: The information the Department It is for local councils to ensure, through their planning holds on the stage at which chronic obstructive pulmonary and commissioning of all social care services, that there disease is diagnosed was published as part of the is sufficient capacity to meet local need. Therefore no Department’s consultation on a strategy for services for such estimate has been made by the Department. chronic obstructive pulmonary disease in England and In recognition of the pressures on the social care is included in the consultation impact assessment. The system in a challenging fiscal climate, the Government consultation documents have already been placed in the have allocated an additional £2 billion by 2014-15 to Library and can be found on the Department’s website support the delivery of social care. at: This means, with an ambitious programme of efficiency, http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/www.dh.gov.uk/ that there is enough funding available both to protect en/Consultations/Liveconsultations/DH_112977 people’s access to services and deliver new approaches The Department does not hold information for to improve quality and outcomes. benchmarking purposes on the stage of diagnosis in other European Union member states. Dental Services: Yorkshire and Humber Clostridium Difficile Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to increase Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the number of NHS dental service centres available in what penalties may be imposed on NHS hospital trusts Yorkshire and the Humber; and what steps he is taking which fail to meet his Department’s targets for reducing to improve provision for emergency treatment. [26547] the incidence of clostridium difficile. [26395] Mr Simon Burns: It is for primary care trusts to Mr Simon Burns: Poor performance in relation to decide how local services, including dental access centres Clostridium difficile is covered within the NHS Standard and urgent care, should develop to meet local needs and Contracts that commissioners are expected to use for service priorities. NHS funded services as a basis for setting out their expectations in terms of performance by their providers. Departmental Grants It falls into the Nationally Specified Events aspect of the contract, which introduces a sliding scale of deductions of up to 2% of the annual contract value if the provider Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health breaches the number of cases of Clostridium difficile (1) what the monetary value of grants awarded by his infections in a contract year compared with the previous Department was in 2009-10; and how much he expects year’s performance. The primary care trust is required to award in grants in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; to make the year-end deduction under the provisions of [27261] the relevant clause within the contract. (2) what grants have been awarded by his Department in 2010-11 to date; what grants he plans to Clostridium Difficile: Screening award in each of the next two years; what the monetary value is of each such grant; and to which organisations Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health such grants are made. [27264] what steps he is taking to increase the proportion of patients screened for the early detection of clostridium Paul Burstow: Information about grants awarded to difficile. [26394] voluntary organisations is routinely published on the Department’s website at: Mr Simon Burns: For patients who develop diarrhoea, www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ existing guidance, ‘Clostridium difficile infection: How PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_118373 893W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 894W

Specific information about all of the Departments Disability: Children grant awards for 2009-10 and 2010-11 has been placed in the Library. In 2009-10 the total value of grants Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for awarded to voluntary organisations was £104,942,584. Health what plans he has for his Department’s funding In 2010-11 the total value of grants awarded to voluntary of disabled children’s services (a) after March 2011 organisations was £109,843,051. and (b) in Sunderland from 2010 to 2015; and if he The monetary value of the Department’s grants to will make a statement. [26376] third sector organisations in 2011-12 will not be agreed until primary care trust allocations have been decided. Anne Milton: Primary care trust (PCT) revenue However, the Government are committed to ensuring allocations are not broken down by policy or service that appropriate support is available to voluntary area. Once allocated, it is for PCTs to commission the organisations to enable them to contribute to improving services they require to meet the health care needs of health and well-being, building strong and resilient their local populations, taking account of both local communities as part of the Big Society. and national priorities. PCTs have been informed of their revenue allocations Departmental Postal Services up to 2010-11. Sunderland Teaching PCT received revenue allocations of £510 million in 2009-10 and £538 million : To ask the Secretary of State for in 2010-11. Health what steps his Department has taken to identify PCT revenue allocations post 2010-11 will be announced those of its services that could be provided through the in December 2010. Post Office network. [24931]

Mr Simon Burns: “Securing the Post Office Network Freedom of Information in the Digital Age” published on 9 November 2010 set out the Government’s policy for the Post Office and the Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health provision of government services. The Department is with reference to the answers of 1 July 2008, Official currently consulting on an information revolution for Report, column 862W, and 1 September 2008, Official health and social care. One of the key challenges will be Report, column 1675W, on departmental freedom of to ensure that information can reach all sections of information, if he will place in the Library a copy of the society. We want to hear from people as to how that can information provided on each topic in respect of which happen and very much welcome responses and ideas, the request was (a) agreed to and answered in full and including any views on how or whether making specific (b) agreed to and answered in part since November services available through Post Offices can play a role 2009; and if he will make a statement. [26412] within that broader strategy. A copy of the consultation document, “Liberating Anne Milton: Copies of the information requested by the NHS: An Information Revolution” has already my hon. Friend have been placed in the Library. been placed in the Library and is available on the Department’s website at General Practitioners www.dh.gov.uk/en/Consultations/Liveconsultations/ DH_120080 Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Diabetes which private health providers (a) he, (b) Ministers in his Department and (c) officials in his Department have met to discuss the proposed GP consortia since 6 Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health May 2010. [26521] how many people have been diagnosed with diabetes through the NHS vascular screening programme; and Mr Simon Burns: There have been several meetings what steps the NHS is taking to inform members of the with private health providers specifically to discuss general public of their entitlement to screening. [26918] practitioner (GP) consortiums and issues such as commissioning support for them. Paul Burstow: The primary purpose of the programme is risk assessment and risk management rather than My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and my diagnosis. However, the modelling undertaken by the noble Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State Department indicates that, at full roll out, as well as held a meeting with a group of companies who provide preventing over 4,000 people a year developing diabetes, commissioning support to GP consortiums. The companies the programme will detect a significant amount of represented were UnitedHealth UK, Tribal UK, Humana hitherto undiagnosed disease. Europe, Aetna UK and Ingenix. Primary care trusts (PCTs) began phased implementation Departmental officials have met with The Practice, of the programme from April 2009 and it is for them to Aetna UK, Tribal, Dr Foster Intelligence, PPP-Axa decide how to inform local eligible populations about it. Healthcare, NHS Shared Business Services, UnitedHealth Most PCTs have been inviting people individually and UK, and GE Healthcare. informing them of their entitlement to an NHS health check by letter of invitation. As they become more Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health experienced in managing demand for the risk assessment whether the provisions of the Transfer of Undertakings element of the check and confident about their capacity (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 will apply to deliver the risk management, PCTs are increasingly in respect of the transfer of staff from primary care running awareness campaigns. trusts to GP consortia. [26524] 895W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 896W

Mr Simon Burns: For those staff transferring from Haemophilia primary care trusts to general practitioner (GP) commissioning consortiums, transfers will be covered Mr Kennedy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health by either the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of (1) whether the NHS took steps to advise haemophiliacs Employment) Regulations 2006 (TUPE) and/or the Cabinet that plasma pool samples from factor VIII and IX Office Staff Transfers in the Public Sector Statement of products produced by the NHS for their use had been Practice which provides terms that are overall no less tested for pathogens; and if he will make a statement; favourable than if TUPE was applied. [26354] (2) whether he plans to release further information Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health held by his Department on the potential pathogenic (1) which reserve powers will be retained by his Department side effects on haemophiliacs of factor VIII and IX following the transfer of commissioning from primary products produced by the NHS for their use; and if he care trusts to GP consortia; [26525] will make a statement. [26411] (2) what powers his Department will have to take action in respect of a GP consortium becoming Anne Milton: It was and still is the responsibility of financially unsustainable after the implementation of individual clinicians to advise their patients of the risks his proposals for practice-based commissioning. [26532] associated with their treatment. In addition, knowledge of both HIV and hepatitis C emerged gradually, over a Mr Simon Burns: General practitioner (GP) period of time in the late 1970s and early 1980s. commissioning consortia will be authorised and held to All of the relevant Government papers that are available account by the NHS Commissioning Board. The NHS from the period before 1985, when heat treatment for Commissioning Board will have powers to intervene in such products was introduced, are on the Department’s the event that a consortium is failing to manage their website at: finances effectively or deliver acceptable outcomes for www.dh.gov.uk/en/FreedomOfInformation/ their patients. Freedomofinformationpublicationschemefeedback/ The Secretary of State for Health will remain accountable FOIreleases/DH_076693 for the health service with powers to set the legislative Given the level of public interest in this matter, the framework within which the NHS Commissioning Board Government are ready to release any more relevant and GP consortia will operate but will not have powers documents should any come to light. to intervene in relation to individual consortia. Further details will be set out in the Government’s forthcoming Help is at Hand response to the consultation on the White Paper “Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS”. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what estimate he has made of the number of copies Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for of his Department’s leaflet entitled Help is at Hand Health what estimate he has made of the likely average distributed by (a) primary care trusts, (b) police forces amount of time per week GPs will allocate to running and (c) local authorities in each of the last four years; GP consortia as a result of his proposals to transfer and if he will make a statement; [26842] commissioning from primary care trusts to GPs. (2) what steps he has taken to ensure that his [26531] Department’s publication Help is at Hand is received by those whom it is intended to assist; and if he will Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not made an make a statement. [26850] estimate of the likely average amount of time per week general practitioners (GPs) will allocate to running GP Paul Burstow: Help is at Hand is a resource pack to consortia. support people bereaved by suicide or other sudden or A fundamental principle of the new commissioning traumatic deaths, which was launched in 2006. We have arrangements will be that every GP practice will be a not collected data in the format requested by the hon. member of a consortium and contribute to its goals. Member. However, data provided by the Department’s However, our proposed model will mean that not all publications orderline, PROLOG, were analysed to show GPs have to be actively involved in every aspect of the number of copies of each edition of the resource commissioning. Their predominant focus will continue pack supplied to public institutions and private individuals to be on providing high quality primary care to their between 12 September 2006 and 31 December 2009. patients. It is likely to be a smaller group of primary The total number of packs distributed over this time care practitioners who will lead the consortium and period was 44,765. play an active role in the clinical design of local services. To ensure effective promotion and dissemination of Consortia are likely to carry out a number of this bereavement pack we undertook a full and commissioning activities themselves. In other cases, comprehensive evaluation of this resource. This evaluation consortia may choose to act collectively, adopting a is now complete and will be published before the end of lead commissioner arrangement. They may also choose December. Once we have published this evaluation we to buy in support from external organisations, including will consider how best to ensure it is available to all of local authorities and private and voluntary sector bodies, those who need it. which might include analytical activity to profile and Support for those bereaved by suicide is a priority for stratify healthcare needs, support for procurement of the new suicide prevention strategy currently being services, and contract monitoring. developed and due for publication in the new year. 897W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 898W

Hemofil T: Clinical Trials Hereford Hospitals NHS Trust—Proportion of total revenue expenditure relating to PFI Percentage of total revenue : To ask the Secretary of State for expenditure relating to PFI Health pursuant to the answer of 23 November 2010, Official Report, column 251W, on Hemofil T: clinical 2005-06 13.3 trials, what consideration his Department has given to 2006-07 13.3 obtaining information on the proportion of patients on 2007-08 13.3 the Hemofil T trial that were mild, moderate or severe 2008-09 12.0 haemophiliacs; and what assessment he has made of 2009-101 10.8 the levels of interest in the issue among (a) the public 1 2009-10 accounts were compiled under International Finance Reporting and (b) hon. Members and Members of the House of Standards under which PFI costs in the audited summarisation Lords. [27280] schedules of trusts are split between capital repayments and revenue expenditure elements, which does not make a precise like for like comparison with earlier years in this table possible. However, an Mr Simon Burns: The Department and the Medicines estimate of the PFI unitary payment for 2009-10 is held centrally by and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency do not the Department as well as the audited outturn revenue expenditure hold records of the Hemofil T trial and have not figure for the Trust for this year and the percentage figure for this year is calculated using these two figures received previous correspondence regarding this specific Notes: trial from either the public or Members of the House of 1. The source of the data is the audited summarisation schedules of Commons or the House of Lords. the trust for 2005-06 to 2009-10. 2. The percentages provided represent the net revenue expenditure in respect of PFI schemes as a proportion of total revenue expenditure. Hereditary Diseases 3. 2005-06 to 2008-09 figures compiled under UK Generally Accepted Accounting Practice. Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Medical Schools Health pursuant to his answer of 8 November 2010, Official Report, column 147W, on hereditary diseases, Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether his Department collects information on how many medical school places were available in 2009-10. genetic conditions causing increased morbidity and [26544] mortality in children born to first cousin parents. Anne Milton: The intake to medical schools in England [26003] in autumn 2009, was 6,453 students, as shown in the following table. Anne Milton: As stated in my previous answer, 8 Medical school intake in England—2009-10 academic year November 2010, Official Report, column 147W, the University/college Total intake of students Department of Health does not routinely collect this specific type of information centrally. University of Birmingham 428 The Department recognises the value of adequate University of Brighton 147 surveillance of congenital anomalies in order to detect 268 any unforeseen increase of genetic defects due to this or 306 any other causes. Surveillance helps develop local services University of Durham 98 specifically designed to deal with consanguineous University of East Anglia 169 relationships. This includes initiatives delivered through University of Hull 160 regional NHS genetic counselling services that work to Imperial College 309 raise awareness of the risks associated with cousin Keele University 135 marriage. King’s College London 417 Most couples in consanguineous relationships will University of Leeds 280 have healthy children. Overall the risk of a couple University of Leicester 284 having a child with a severe genetic condition is still University of Liverpool 397 relatively small, estimated at 4% for cousin marriages 406 compared to 2% for unrelated parents. University of Newcastle 259 University of Nottingham 348 Hereford County Hospital: Private Finance Initiative University of Oxford 185 Peninsula School of Medicine 218 and Dentistry Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for Queen Mary, University of 387 Health what proportion of the total running costs for London Hereford county hospital (a) was paid to the private St George’s Hospital Medical 274 finance initiative provider in each year from 2005-09 School and (b) is projected to be so paid in (i) 2011 and (ii) University of Sheffield 255 2011. [26280] University of Southampton 252 University College London 285 Mr Simon Burns: The information is not available in University of Warwick 186 the format requested. However, data for the proportion Total 6,453 of total revenue expenditure by Hereford Hospitals Note: NHS Trust in respect of its private finance initiative These figures are provisional until November/December 2010 when (PFI) scheme is set out in the following table. revised figures will be reported to HEFCE. Source: Data is not held centrally for 2010-11 or 2011-12. Higher Education Funding Council for England—November 2009 899W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 900W

Medical Schools: Public Expenditure infection prevention and control practices. This guidance is available on the Department of Health’s “Clean, Safe Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Care” website. what estimate he has made of the number of medical The Health and Social Care Act 2008 “Code of school places that will be available in each year of the Practice for health and adult social care on the Prevention Comprehensive Spending Review period. [26543] and Control of Infections and related guidance”, which the Care Quality Commission use as a basis for assessing Anne Milton: There are no current plans to change compliance with the registration requirement on cleanliness numbers but they will be kept under review based on and infection control has been a driver for improvement forecast future demand with the advice of the Centre in the hospital setting. The scope of the Code has for Workforce Intelligence. already been extended to adult social care settings and will include primary care in due course so that we can Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus: Screening ensure that all settings where patients receive care and treatment operate comparable infection prevention and control practices. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what progress has been made towards meeting his Department’s 2011 deadline for the screening of Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus: Screening non-elective patients for MRSA. [26390]

Mr Simon Burns: As outlined in the “NHS Operating Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Framework 2010/11”, there is a requirement to introduce what information his Department collates for the Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus screening. purpose of monitoring rates of MRSA. [26391] Good progress is being made by organisations to implement screening for this cohort of patients, with some organisations Mr Simon Burns: Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus already having declared full implementation of the policy aureus (MRSA) bacteraemia are subject to mandatory and all organisations planning to implement emergency reporting to the Health Protection Agency.The Department screening for relevant emergency admissions within the uses the outputs from this system to assess and monitor expected time scale. Strategic health authorities will rates of MRSA bacteraemia at both national and local continue to monitor delivery towards the requirement levels. by 31 December 2010.

Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus Multiple Sclerosis: Health Services

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Liz Kendall: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to reduce the (1) what the membership is of the independent scientific incidence of MRSA. [26392] advisory group of the multiple sclerosis risk-sharing scheme; [26893] Mr Simon Burns: This Government are determined (2) how many patients have taken part in the multiple to do all they can to support the health and adult social sclerosis risk-sharing scheme; and what estimate he has care providers reduce Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus made of the cost to the public purse of administering aureus (MRSA). From the outset, through the Coalition drug treatments under the scheme; [26894] Agreement, this Government made clear that they expected (3) which organisation is responsible for monitoring the national health service to adopt a zero tolerance outcomes for patients involved in the multiple sclerosis approach to all health care associated infections (HCAIs), risk-sharing scheme; and when the results of the including MRSA. scheme will be published. [26895] In the revision of the 2010-11 Operating Framework published in June, it was made clear that the NHS Mr Simon Burns: The scientific advisory group of the should continue prioritising the achievement of the multiple sclerosis risk sharing scheme (MS RSS) comprises MRSA objective. The successful implementation of this individuals with expertise in clinical research, epidemiology objective will deliver both an overall reduction nationally and trials and health economics. The group is chaired and, importantly, will reduce variation by moving all by Richard Lilford, Professor of Clinical Epidemiology organisations towards the performance of the best. at Birmingham university and receives specialist advice At the same time, the revision of the Operating from neurologists who specialise in the treatment of Framework confirmed that it expected and required the multiple sclerosis. NHS to implement MRSA screening of all relevant The MS RSS collects data from a cohort of over emergency admissions by the end of this year. 5,000 patients. There are an estimated 12,000 people [n terms of using the availability of data as a driver to receiving drug therapy in the United Kingdom through supporting further reductions in MRSA, we have introduced the scheme. Total national health service spend in England weekly data publication of both MRSA blood stream on the four drugs covered by the scheme is estimated at infections and Clostridium difficile infections at hospital £50 million a year. The Department contributes £200,000 site level. per year to running the scheme. We are also committed to ensuring that the NHS Parexel Ltd, a specialist clinical research organisation, continue to have access to evidence based guidance in is responsible for data collection, management and order that they can reduce the number of all HCAIs, analysis for the MS RSS. Analysis of four year data including MRSA, through the implementation of effective from the scheme is due to be completed in 2011. 901W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 902W

Muscular Dystrophy: Yorkshire and Humber These figures can be found by region in annexes 1 to 10 of David Flory’s, ‘The Quarter: quarter 1 2010-11’ Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for at: Health if he will meet the Yorkshire and Humber www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ Specialist Commissioning Group to discuss the PublicationsStatistics/DH_087335 proposed appointment of a muscular dystrophy care and a copy has been placed in the Library. advisor for Hull. [27029] Nurses: Public Expenditure Paul Burstow: The appointment of a muscular dystrophy care adviser in Hull is a matter for the local national Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health health service. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of (1) what estimate he has made of the number of nurses State currently has no plans to meet the Yorkshire and who will leave the NHS in each year of the Comprehensive the Humber Specialised Commissioning Group to discuss Spending Review period; [26537] this matter. (2) what estimate he has made of the number of nurses to be recruited in each year of the Comprehensive NHS Spending Review period. [26540]

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anne Milton: The information requested is not collected what assessment he has made of the likely ability of by the Department NHS foundation trusts to meet patient safety targets in The precise numbers of national health service nurses each of the next three financial years. [26393] required over the next five years will not be known until the new organisations that will underpin the new system Mr Simon Burns: We are informed by the Chairman have been designed in more detail. of Monitor (the statutory name of which is the Independent Regulator of NHS Foundation Trusts) that the safety The Department of Health has consulted on how the of patients at NHS foundation trusts is assessed by a new organisations should be designed and is analysing number of bodies, principally the Care Quality Commission responses. Information on how the new organisations (CQC). The CQC registers providers of regulated activities, should be designed will be announced in due course. including NHS foundation trusts and monitors their The Government have fulfilled their commitment to compliance with the essential safety and quality give the NHS a real terms increase in funding each year. requirements. Where there is evidence of material safety The demands on the service are rising and to meet concerns, CQC and Monitor will jointly consider the these, the NHS must make up to £20 billion of efficiency appropriate action. savings by 2014, by reducing bureaucracy and doing things differently. Savings will be reinvested to support NHS: Armed Forces the delivery of quality health care.

Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Social Services: Elderly how many armed forces reservists employed by the NHS have had requests for leave to undergo operational Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State training refused by NHS trusts in the financial year for Health (1) what estimate he has made of the likely 2010-11 to date. [26534] percentage reduction in funding for social care for older people in Newcastle upon Tyne as a result of the Mr Simon Burns: This information is not collected comprehensive spending review; and if he will make a centrally. statement; [26950] We do not centrally monitor the number of national (2) what assessment he has made of the likely effect health service (NHS) staff serving in the reserve forces. of the outcome of the comprehensive spending review There is an option on the electronic staff record (ESR) on the quality of social care services provided for older to record reserve forces training as a reason for absence, people in Newcastle upon Tyne; and if he will make a however, entry of these data is not mandatory (although statement. [26952] it is recommended as ESR best practice). Last year around 100 NHS organisations recorded reserve forces Paul Burstow: The spending review recognised the training as a reason for absence but we cannot be sure importance of social care to hundreds of thousands of of a national figure or how many requests for this type adults of all ages, backgrounds and identities: supporting of leave have been refused. their independence and helping them to make full and active contributions to their communities. NHS: Public Finance In recognition of the pressures on the social care system in a challenging local government settlement, Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for the coalition Government have allocated an additional Health what the budget deficit or surplus was for each £2 billion by 2014-15 to support the delivery of social NHS trust on the latest date for which figures are care. available. [26499] We have achieved this by: Mr Simon Burns: The latest figures available on the The national health service transferring some funding from the health capital budget to health revenue, to be spent on measures surplus or deficit positions for each national health that support social care, which also benefits health. This funding service trust are the 2010-11 Quarter 1 forecasts, which will rise to £1 billion in 2014-15, and will promote improved joint were published on the Department’s website on 19 working between the health and social care systems. Further November 2010. details will be set out in the NHS Operating Framework 2011-12. 903W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 904W

Additional grant funding, rising to £1 billion by 2014-15, will Number of tuberculosis cases reported in the London borough of be made available for social care. This funding will be allocated in Bexley, 2007-09 addition to the Department’s existing social care grants, which Number of cases will rise in line with inflation. Total grant funding from the Department for social care will reach £2.4 billion by 2014-15. In 2007 27 order to support local flexibility and to reduce administrative 2008 23 burdens, this funding will go to authorities through the revenue 2009 17 support grant. Source: This means that, with an ambitious programme of Health Protection Agency efficiency, there is enough funding available both to protect people’s access to care and deliver new approaches to improve quality and outcomes. University Hospitals Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust A key priority for the Government is a radical devolution of power away from central Government, freeing local government from central control and empowering local Mark Pawsey: To ask the Secretary of State for people to take an active role in services. Decisions on Health what his estimate is of the proportion of the spending at a local level must be considered in the running costs of University Hospital Coventry and context of local priorities, which are crafted by local Warwickshire (a) which was paid to the private finance authorities in response to the needs and wishes of the initiative provider in each year from 2005-06 to 2009-10 people they serve. Spending on social care will therefore and (b) will be paid to that provider in 2010-11 and be a decision for the relevant local authority, and it is 2011-12. [26153] not possible to provide a central estimate. Mr Simon Burns: The information is not available in South London Healthcare NHS Trust the format requested. However, data for the proportion of total revenue expenditure by University Hospitals Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust in respect of its what recent assessment he has made of the financial private finance initiative (PFI) scheme, is set out in the performance of South London Healthcare NHS Trust. following table. [26268] Figures for 2005-06 and 2006-07 are not comparable with later years as the PFI hospital did not fully open Mr Simon Burns: The Department has identified six until part way through 2006-07. trusts as financially challenged, including South London Data are not held centrally for 2010-11 or 2011-12. Healthcare NHS Trust. The Department will continue University Hospitals Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust— to work with London strategic health authority to proportion of total revenue expenditure relating to PFI ensure that, during 2010-11, South London Healthcare Percentage of total revenue NHS Trust has plans in place to return to financial expenditure relating to PFI balance, whilst at the same time maintaining and improving services to patients. 2005-06 4.3 2006-07 12.7 Surgery: Waiting Lists 2007-08 14.6 2008-09 14.6 2009-101 14.3 Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 1 2009-10 accounts were compiled under International Finance Reporting what estimate he has made of the average waiting time Standards under which PFI costs in the audited summarisation for elective surgery by the end of the comprehensive schedules of trusts are split between capital repayments and revenue spending review period. [26528] expenditure elements, which does not make a precise like for like comparison with earlier years in this table possible. However, an estimate of the PFI unitary payment for 2009-10 is held centrally by Mr Simon Burns: Clinical priority will remain the the Department as well as the audited outturn revenue expenditure main determinant of when patients should be treated. figure for the trust for this year and the percentage figure for this year Patients should not experience undue delay at any stage is calculated using these two figures. of their treatment and would not expect a return to long Notes: waiting times for operations. 1. The source of the data is the audited summarisation schedules of the trust for 2005-06 to 2009-10. The national health service (NHS) will be accountable 2. The percentages provided represent the net revenue expenditure in locally to the public it serves and provide information to respect of PFI schemes as a proportion of total revenue expenditure. patients which will drive choice and competition in the 3. 2005-06 to 2008-09 figures compiled under UK Generally Accepted Accounting Practice. NHS.

Tuberculosis: Greater London Young People: Autism

Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Jessica Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many cases of tuberculosis have been diagnosed in whether his Department issues guidance on referring the London Borough of Bexley in each of the last three young people with autism who receive support from years. [26267] child and adolescent mental health services and do not fulfil the criteria for adult mental health teams to Anne Milton: The information requested is shown in appropriate support from other services on reaching the following table. adulthood. [26443] 905W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 906W

Paul Burstow: The Autism Act 2009 requires that the Departmental Sponsorship Government produce statutory guidance for health and social care bodies to support delivery of the autism Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health strategy. The strategy highlights the need to improve what expenditure (a) his Department and (b) its non- transition planning to give people with autism the right departmental public bodies incurred on sponsorship in start as adults and the guidance will include advice on each year since 1997 for which figures are available. the transition from child to adult services. I will launch [27515] this guidance at a meeting hosted by the National Autistic Society on 17 December 2010. Paul Burstow: The Department does not account for sponsorship separately within its accounting system. It Answers received for publication on would take disproportionate time and incur a Wednesday 1 December 2010. disproportionate cost to collect the information requested. The Department does not collect sponsorship information from its non-departmental public bodies and this would Cancer: Drugs also take a disproportionate time to commission the request. Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much his Department has allocated to each strategic Football: South Africa health authority from the NHS funding for cancer drugs announced on 10 November 2010. [27395] Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much his Department spent on entertainment Paul Burstow: With regard to the additional funding activities related to the 2010 FIFA World cup. [27361] for national health service cancer drugs in 2010-11, I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave the hon. Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not funded Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma) on 26 October entertainment related to the activities of the 2010 FIFA 2010, Official Report, column 297W. World cup. We are currently consulting on our proposals for the Cancer Drugs Fund to be introduced from April 2011, including on the most appropriate allocation of the General Practitioners £200 million per annum funding. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether GP consortia commissioning healthcare Child Birth: Greater London services by tender will be able to accept tenders from other NHS organisations; and if he will make a statement. Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health [27093] how many (a) hospital and (b) home births took place in the London borough of Bexley in each of the last Paul Burstow: It is essential that general practitioner five years. [26269] (GP) consortia have the freedom to make commissioning decisions that they judge will achieve the best outcomes within the financial resources available to them. At the Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. same time, the economic regulator and NHS The information requested falls within the responsibility Commissioning Board will need to develop and maintain of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority a framework that ensures transparency, fairness and to reply. patient choice. We propose that, wherever possible, Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated November 2010: services should be commissioned that enable patients to choose from any willing provider. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many The NHS Commissioning Board will be responsible (a) hospital and (b) home births took place in the London for providing a framework to support GP consortia in Borough of Bexley in each of the last five years. (26269) commissioning services. This will include setting standards for the quality of NHS commissioning and procurement. The table below shows the numbers of live births occurring to mothers usually resident in the London Borough of Bexley in each year 2005 to 2009. These are presented by place of birth: NHS hospital, at home or other. Health Services

Place of birth 2009 2008 2007 2006 2005 Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health NHS hospital 2,977 2,894 2,882 2,707 2,635 whether the proposals in respect of commissioning of At home 46 74 61 73 43 health services in the Health White Paper will lead to Other1 67 488(a) podiatry and (b) similar services being commissioned Total live births 3,029 2,975 2,947 2,788 2,686 as single services. [27158] 1 ‘Other’ live births include those taking place in non-NHS establishments such as private maternity units, military hospitals, and private hospitals. Paul Burstow: The White Paper ‘Equity and Excellence: They also include births occurring ‘elsewhere’, for example in private Liberating the NHS’ set out our proposals to devolve residences that are not the mother’s own, or those occurring on the power and responsibility for commissioning services to way to the hospital. local consortiums of general practitioner (GP) practices. 907W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 908W

GP consortiums will be responsible for commissioning Mr Simon Burns: The information is not available in the great majority of national health service services. the format requested. Such information as is available is We will expect consortiums to involve relevant health in the table. and social care professionals from all sectors in helping design care pathways or care packages that achieve Quarterly data on the number and proportion of more integrated delivery of care, higher quality, and patients who spend four hours or less from arrival to more efficient use of NHS resources. This will create an admission, transfer or discharge at accident and emergency effective dialogue across all health, and where appropriate, (A&E) departments is available and published quarterly social care, professionals. via the Department’s Quarterly Monitoring Accident and Emergency Services (QMAE) dataset. QMAE is To support GP consortiums in their commissioning the official source for monitoring performance against decisions, we will also create an independent NHS the four hour A&E waiting time standard. Commissioning Board. ‘Liberating the NHS: Commissioning for Patients’ Monthly data on the number and proportion of invited views on a number of areas of the commissioning patients who spend four hours or less from arrival to agenda. The engagement exercise closed on 11 October admission, transfer or discharge at A&E departments and the Department is now analysing all of the are only available monthly for August to October 2010 contributions received. from situation report (SitRep) management data. These data do not undergo the same validation processes as Health Services: Standards official QMAE data. For the months prior to August 2010 SitRep data Liz Kendall: To ask the Secretary of State for Health were collected on a weekly basis and monthly figures how many and what proportion of patients spent (a) would be difficult to obtain from the weekly data as four hours or less and (b) more than four hours from different months would contain different numbers of arrival to admission, transfer or discharge at accident weeks, meaning a month on month comparison would and emergency departments in each (i) month and (ii) be distorted. quarter of (A) 2009 and (B) 2010 to date. [27637]

A&E attendances and performance, England, calendar year, 2009 and 2010 by quarter, 2010, August, September, October All A&E/Minor Injuries Unit/Walk in Centre (Type 1, 2, 3) Attendances where patient Percentage of attendances spent: where patient spent: Four hours More than Four hours More than or less in four hours or less in four hours in Calendar year Quarter Month OrgID Name A&E in A&E A&E1,2 A&E1,2

QMAE data 2009 1 — Eng England 4,591,401 108,816 97.7 2.3 2009 2 — Eng England 5,113,295 74,693 98.6 1.4 2009 3 — Eng England 5,025,722 66,023 98.7 1.3 2009 4 — Eng England 4,925,381 110,738 97.8 2.2 2010 1 — Eng England 4,731,558 102,163 97.9 2.1 2010 2 — Eng England 5,396,369 86,501 98.4 1.6 2010 3 — Eng England 5,214,746 106,710 98.0 2.0

Monthly SitRep data 2010 — August Eng England 1,723,360 33,180 98.1 1.9 2010 — September Eng England 1,701,826 41,151 97.6 2.4 2010 — October Eng England 1,753,711 47,414 97.4 2.6 1 From Q1 2010-11 (calendar year 2010 Q2), the calculation of quarterly A&E performance on the QMAE has changed. Prior to 2010-11 the calculation has identified the proportion of breaches with respect to all A&E attendances, irrespective of whether the time spent in A&E was known. The new calculation shows the breaches as a proportion of total attendances for which the time spent in A&E is known. Any attendances for which the time spent in A&E is unknown are excluded from the total attendances for the purpose of the calculation. 2 The calculation of monthly A&E performance on the Monthly SitReps identifies the proportion of breaches with respect to all A&E attendances, irrespective of whether the time spent in A&E was known. Notes: Attendances with an unknown total time are not included in the quarterly QMAE data. Source: Department of Health dataset QMAE, Monthly SitReps

Liz Kendall: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Simon Burns: The information is shown in the how many and what proportion of patients (a) following table: received treatment within and (b) waited longer for treatment than 18-weeks after referral in each (i) month and (ii) quarter of (A) 2009 and (B) 2010 to date. [27638] 909W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 910W

Referral to treatment (RTT) national statistics (England) Completed admitted adjusted RTT consultant-led pathways Number of patients Number of patients % of patients who % of patients who who started treatment who started treatment started treatment started treatment Calendar year Quarter Month within 18-weeks after 18-weeks within 18-weeks after 18-weeks

2009 — January 273,184 20,751 92.9 7.1 2009 — February 261,111 20,364 92.8 7.2 2009 — March 300,703 22,483 93.0 7.0 2009 1 — 834,998 63,598 92.9 7.1

2009 — April 267,357 19,295 93.3 6.7 2009 — May 263,030 17,634 93.7 6.3 2009 — June 299,763 20,350 93.6 6.4 2009 2 — 830,150 57,279 93.5 6.5

2009 — July 303,148 20,532 93.7 6.3 2009 — August 262,624 17,986 93.6 6.4 2009 — September 297,343 21,401 93.3 6.7 2009 3 — 863,115 59,919 93.5 6.5

2009 — October 299,077 22,478 93.0 7.0 2009 — November 294,662 22,918 92.8 7.2 2009 — December 260,308 18,811 93.3 6.7 2009 4 — 854,047 64,207 93.0 7.0

2010 — January 263,501 20,996 92.6 7.4 2010 — February 275,335 24,172 91.9 8.1 2010 — March 322,462 27,921 92.0 8.0 2010 1 — 861,298 73,089 92.2 7.8

2010 — April 265,895 22,774 92.1 7.9 2010 — May 270,648 20,662 92.9 7.1 2010 — June 300,549 22,440 93.1 6.9 2010 2 — 837,092 65,876 92.7 7.3

2010 — July 292,098 21,120 93.3 6.7 2010 — August 268,301 19,553 93.2 6.8 2010 — September 289,261 23,542 92.5 7.5 2010 3 — 849,660 64,215 93.0 7.0

Completed non-admitted RTT consultant-led pathways Number of patients Number of patients % of patients who % of patients who who started treatment who started treatment started treatment started treatment Calendar year Quarter Month within 18-weeks after 18-weeks within 18-weeks after 18-weeks

2009 — January 811,077 22,252 97.3 2.7 2009 — February 739,427 20,390 97.3 2.7 2009 — March 873,636 23,407 97.4 2.6 2009 1 — 2,424,140 66,049 97.3 2.7

2009 — April 824,755 21,682 97.4 2.6 2009 — May 793,540 18,005 97.8 2.2 2009 — June 936,590 21,294 97.8 2.2 2009 2 — 2,554,885 60,981 97.7 2.3

2009 — July 928,721 21,549 97.7 2.3 2009 — August 785,914 18,393 97.7 2.3 2009 — September 913,825 22,784 97.6 2.4 2009 3 — 2,628,460 62,726 97.7 2.3

2009 — October 893,394 21,233 97.7 2.3 2009 — November 887,612 20,488 97.7 2.3 2009 — December 792,428 17,221 97.9 2.1 2009 4 — 2,573,434 58,942 97.8 2.2 911W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 912W

Completed non-admitted RTT consultant-led pathways Number of patients Number of patients % of patients who % of patients who who started treatment who started treatment started treatment started treatment Calendar year Quarter Month within 18-weeks after 18-weeks within 18-weeks after 18-weeks

2010 — January 794,900 18,346 97.7 2.3 2010 — February 827,198 18,559 97.8 2.2 2010 — March 955,792 21,050 97.8 2.2 2010 1 — 2,577,890 57,955 97.8 2.2

2010 — April 822,550 17,662 97.9 2.1 2010 — May 842,612 15,557 98.2 1.8 2010 — June 942,117 17,252 98.2 1.8 2010 2 — 2,607,279 50,471 98.1 1.9

2010 — July 921,418 18,036 98.1 1.9 2010 — August 859,515 17,278 98.0 2.0 2010 — September 927,225 20,583 97.8 2.2 2010 3 — 2,708,158 55,897 98.0 2.0 Note: The quarterly figures are calculated from an aggregation of the monthly data. Source: Department of Health RTT waiting times.

Health Services: Weather that is in place which incentivises high quality care; National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health guidance on hip fracture care and the focus on outcomes (1) whether any NHS trusts have reported issues related within the national health service. to (a) capacity of critical care services and (b) bed Insulin availability under his Department’s winter reporting arrangements since 2 November 2010; [27349] Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (2) whether he has received any reports of problems what plans his Department has for the future provision in patient handover between ambulance and acute of testing strips for insulin users. [27100] services under his Department’s winter reporting arrangements during November 2010; [27350] Paul Burstow: Prescribing decisions about blood testing (3) whether any (a) daily situation reports and (b) strips are for local determination. It is for the local NHS trusts have identified services operation problems national health service to ensure that they are under his Department’s winter reporting arrangements commissioning for a comprehensive diabetes service since 2 November 2010. [27351] that includes patient education as well as access to blood testing strips. Mr Simon Burns: It is for individual local health In 2002, the National Institute for Health and Clinical areas, working with their strategic health authorities Excellence issued clinical guidelines on ‘Management (SHAs), to ensure that appropriate services are available of Type 2 Diabetes—Management of Blood Glucose’. for their patients during winter. The guidelines include advice on the self-monitoring of Where operational issues are identified through daily blood glucose, and state that self-monitoring can have winter reporting, the Department works closely with benefits, but it should be carried out as part of an SHAs to ensure local winter plans are escalated to integrated self-care package and if the purpose is clear mitigate operational risks. and agreed with the patient. People with non-insulin-treated There will, on occasion, be peak demands on services Type 2 diabetes, who believe it to be beneficial, and have in certain places. This can mean temporary measures clearly defined goals and objectives, should be encouraged are necessary, but these are kept to an absolute minimum to continue to monitor. and patient safety and quality of care are always paramount. Local Involvement Networks: Finance Hip Fractures: Older People Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health : To ask the Secretary of State for what arrangements he plans to put in place to ensure Health what steps he is taking to reduce the variation continuity of funding to local authorities for Local in number of older people with hip fractures between Involvement Networks prior to the establishment of different local authority areas. [27455] local HealthWatch organisations; and if he will make a statement. [28201] Paul Burstow: There is a significant programme of work in development to address variation. This Government Mr Simon Burns: I refer the hon. Member to the reply intended the commissioning toolkit to support given to the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry organisations’ establishment of effective falls and fracture McCarthy) on 18 November, Official Report, columns prevention and management, the best practice tariff 957-958W. 913W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 914W

NHS Commissioning Board hold a contract with those general practitioner practices who have chosen to enter into an arrangement with a Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for PCT to provide this service. Health whether the NHS Commissioning Board will commission salaried primary dental care services. Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for [27167] Health if he will fund a national programme of audits of falls and bone health in primary care. [27186] Mr Simon Burns: Yes, that is our intention. The White Paper “Equity and excellence: Liberating the Paul Burstow: We already fund a national clinical NHS” proposed that the NHS Commissioning Board audit of falls and bone health, delivered by the Royal would commission primary care dental services. College of Physicians. The audit measures the organisation NHS Foundation Trusts of services and care provided to older people for falls prevention, bone health and fracture management. It Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State provides national benchmarking data, using evidence for Health what steps he plans to take to ensure that based quality standards, for a variety of healthcare NHS trusts continue to provide equal access for all settings: acute, primary care, care homes and mental patients upon becoming foundation trusts; and if he health care. will make a statement. [27094] Strokes: Health Education Mr Simon Burns: Each primary care trust (PCT) needs to ensure equality of access to national health service services through the providers it contracts with, Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health including NHS foundation trusts (NHSFTs). Through (1) when he plans to release the remaining tranche of contracting with a plurality of health service providers, funding for the Act F.A.S.T. campaign; [27168] PCTs should be able to secure improved access for the (2) what recent assessment he has made of the patients they serve. effectiveness of his Department’s Act F.A.S.T. campaign In the future, general practitioner consortia will in raising stroke awareness. [27169] commission the services that patients receive, helping them to navigate the system and ensure they get the best Mr Simon Burns: Approval has been received recently care. from the Cabinet Office Efficiency and Reform Group The general right to access NHS services will remain for a further wave of the Act FAST Stroke awareness unchanged as NHS Trusts become authorised to operate campaign to go ahead. The current intention is for the as NHSFTs. television adverts to run in March 2011, supported by distribution of other materials locally. NHS Litigation Authority The evaluation we commissioned from the advertising Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health agency which was awarded the contract for developing whether the NHS Litigation Authority will provide the stroke awareness campaign, showed that the campaign insurance cover for private providers of NHS services successfully achieved a rapid change in behaviour: within after the implementation of the proposals in the NHS a year, an estimated 9,864 more people reached hospital faster, 642 of whom were saved from death or serious White Paper. [27160] disability by receiving thrombolysis. The evidence Mr Simon Burns: The NHS Litigation Authority demonstrated that the campaign achieved a payback of does not currently provide insurance cover, but provides £3.16 for every £1 spent. On this basis the agency a discretionary indemnity to members of the statutory submitted an entry to the 2010 Institute of Professional schemes established under section 71 of the National Advertisers Effectiveness Awards and, in November, Health Service Act 2006. Membership of the schemes is achieved a Gold Award. voluntary. The Department is committed to making sure the Tobacco: Sales same arrangements that provide clinical negligence cover to NHS bodies are also available to other providers that Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health deliver NHS care, including other public sector providers what timetable he proposes for implementation of any and private providers. Changes will be implemented proposals requiring the sale of tobacco products in alongside the White Paper reforms. plain packaging; and if he will make a statement. Osteoporosis: Health Services [27434]

Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Milton: The Government’s consideration of Health what estimate he has made of the number of policy on the plain packaging of tobacco products is in GP practices which have met the minimum thresholds its early stages. The Government will look at whether set out in the Osteoporosis Directed Enhanced Service. the plain packaging of tobacco products could be an [27181] effective way to reduce further the numbers of young people taking up smoking and to help those who are Paul Burstow: The Department does not hold trying to quit smoking. The Government want to make information on the number of practices that participate it easier for people to make healthy choices, but will in the Osteoporosis Directed Enhanced Service. The clearly need to consider both the benefits and the costs information is held by primary care trusts (PCTs) who of any new policy. 915W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2010 Written Answers 916W

Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2010, includes a section examining the evidence on the with reference to his press statement of 22 November plain or generic packaging of tobacco products. 2010, what the evidential basis was for his statement The RAND report can be found at: (a) (b) that packaging helps to recruit smokers and http://ec.europa.eu/health/tobacco/docs/ that children are being attracted to smoking by glitzy tobacco_ia_rand_en.pdf designs on packets; what plans he has to implement legislative provisions prohibiting the display in retail Also, the Australian Government have announced outlets of tobacco product packaging; and if he will their intention to introduce a legislative requirement for the plain packaging of tobacco to commence on 1 make a statement. [27439] January 2012. The evidence supporting their action is Anne Milton: A large number of documents, reports summarised in their technical report “Australia: the and studies have been published about the effect of healthiest country by 2020—Technical report 2 Tobacco packaging in the marketing and promotion of tobacco Control in Australia”. products, and support the statements made by the Secretary The Australian technical report can be found at: of State. www.preventativehealth.org.au/internet/preventativehealth/ For example, the RAND Europe study “Assessing publishing.nsf/Content/tech-tobacco the Impacts of Revising the Tobacco Products Directive” The Government are looking at options around the commissioned by the European Commission Health display of tobacco in shops, recognising the need to and Consumer Directorate-General to support their take action both to reduce tobacco consumption and to assessment of the impacts of revising the Tobacco reduce burdens on businesses. No decisions have yet Products Directive 2001/37/EC and published in September been made.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 1 December 2010

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 810 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 810 Economy...... 810 Employment ...... 809 SCOTLAND...... 801 Energy...... 801 Asylum Seekers...... 802 HIV...... 803 Commonwealth Games...... 807 MOD Hospital Unit ...... 809 Economy...... 804 Scotch Whisky ...... 806 Economy...... 807 VAT ...... 808 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 1 December 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 73WS HEALTH...... 78WS Telecoms Council...... 73WS Stem Cell Transplant Services ...... 78WS

CABINET OFFICE...... 77WS Diamond Jubilee Civic Honours Competitions...... 77WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 78WS Justice and Home Affairs Pre-Council Statement .. 80WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 76WS Local Licensing Act ...... 78WS London Reforms and the Localism Bill ...... 76WS Policing in the 21st Century ...... 79WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 77WS TREASURY ...... 73WS Single Payment Scheme...... 77WS Fair Pay in the Public Sector ...... 73WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 1 December 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 836W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— EU Law...... 836W continued Housing: Costs...... 847W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 831W Mortgages...... 848W Agriculture: Training ...... 831W Park Homes: Caravan Sites...... 848W Credit: Regulation...... 832W Poverty: Children ...... 849W Departmental Food...... 833W Squatting ...... 849W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 833W Tenancy Deposit Schemes...... 849W Higher Education: Finance ...... 834W Travellers: Caravan Sites ...... 849W Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 834W Working Neighbourhoods Fund ...... 850W Manufacturing Industries: Trade Competitiveness. 834W Regional Growth Fund ...... 835W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 836W UK Trade and Investment: Bahrain ...... 835W Arts: Cumbria County Council...... 836W Arts: Sunderland City Council...... 836W CABINET OFFICE...... 880W Broadband ...... 837W Banks: Finance ...... 880W Co-production Agreement between the UK and Big Society Bank...... 880W Israel...... 837W Charity Commission ...... 880W Copyright: Recordings ...... 838W Community Organisers ...... 881W Departmental Sponsorship ...... 838W Deaths: Winter...... 881W Newsquest Media Group ...... 838W Emergencies ...... 882W Football: South Africa ...... 882W DEFENCE...... 816W Iraq Committee of Inquiry: Public Appointments . 882W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 816W National Citizen Service...... 883W Armed Forces: Aircraft ...... 816W Third Sector: Finance ...... 883W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 816W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 884W Defence Exports Group ...... 817W Nimrod Aircraft...... 817W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 846W Rescue Services ...... 818W Affordable Housing: Construction...... 846W Strategic Defence and Security Review ...... 818W Decentralisation and Localism Bill ...... 846W Trident Submarines...... 818W Housing: Construction...... 846W USA: Nuclear Weapons ...... 819W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued HEALTH—continued Warships: Decommissioning ...... 819W Departmental Postal Services...... 893W Departmental Sponsorship ...... 906W EDUCATION...... 850W Diabetes ...... 893W Business: Education ...... 850W Disability: Children...... 894W Departmental Redundancy ...... 851W Football: South Africa ...... 906W Free School Meals: Ealing ...... 851W Freedom of Information ...... 894W Kristallnacht: Education...... 852W General Practitioners ...... 894W Pre-School Education: Special Educational Needs. 853W General Practitioners ...... 906W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 853W Haemophilia ...... 896W Schools: Holocaust Memorial Day ...... 854W Health Services ...... 906W Schools: Reading...... 854W Health Services: Standards...... 907W Schools: Standards...... 854W Health Services: Weather...... 911W Special Educational Needs: Children in Care...... 855W Help is at Hand...... 896W Special Educational Needs: Lancashire...... 855W Hemofil T: Clinical Trials...... 897W UN Convention on the Rights of the Child ...... 855W Hereditary Diseases ...... 897W World War II: Education...... 856W Hereford County Hospital: Private Finance Youth Services: Manpower ...... 856W Initiative...... 897W Hip Fractures: Older People...... 911W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 808W Insulin...... 912W Carbon Reduction Commitment Energy Local Involvement Networks: Finance...... 912W Efficiency Scheme ...... 808W Medical Schools...... 898W Departmental Contracts ...... 808W Medical Schools: Public Expenditure...... 899W Energy: Prices ...... 808W Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus: Natural Gas ...... 809W Screening ...... 899W Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus...... 899W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus: AFFAIRS...... 800W Screening ...... 900W Agricultural Wages Order ...... 800W Multiple Sclerosis: Health Services...... 900W Biofuels...... 801W Muscular Dystrophy: Yorkshire and Humber ...... 901W British Waterways ...... 802W NHS...... 901W Carbon Emissions: Businesses ...... 802W NHS: Armed Forces ...... 901W Common Agricultural Policy ...... 802W NHS Commissioning Board ...... 913W Departmental Policy ...... 803W NHS Foundation Trusts...... 913W Farming Futures: Finance...... 805W NHS Litigation Authority...... 913W Genetically Modified Organisms...... 805W NHS: Public Finance ...... 901W National Parks...... 806W Nurses: Public Expenditure...... 902W Salmon: Rivers...... 807W Osteoporosis: Health Services ...... 913W Woodland Grants Scheme...... 807W Social Services: Elderly ...... 902W South London Healthcare NHS Trust ...... 903W Strokes: Health Education ...... 914W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 825W Surgery: Waiting Lists...... 903W Akmyrat Rejepow ...... 825W Tobacco: Sales...... 914W British Council: Finance ...... 826W Tuberculosis: Greater London ...... 903W Cayman Islands: Loans...... 826W University Hospitals Coventry and Warwickshire Diplomatic Service: Domestic Staff...... 827W NHS Trust ...... 904W European Union ...... 827W Young People: Autism...... 904W Football: South Africa ...... 827W Government Hospitality: Wines...... 827W Iraq: Christianity ...... 830W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 811W Israel: OECD ...... 830W Aviation: Security...... 811W Palestinians: International Assistance ...... 830W Crime...... 811W Piracy...... 831W Homosexuality: Criminal Records ...... 812W Immigration...... 812W Migration...... 812W HEALTH...... 885W Vetting ...... 813W Abortion ...... 885W Abortion: Marriage...... 887W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 887W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 823W Barnet General Hospital: Private Finance Meat: Ritual Slaughter...... 823W Initiative...... 888W Parliamentary Archives: Manpower...... 824W Basophobia: NHS...... 888W Smartphone Applications ...... 824W British Medical Association: Competition ...... 889W Cancer: Drugs...... 905W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 799W Cancer: Waiting Lists...... 890W Departmental Sponsorship ...... 799W Cataracts: Surgery...... 890W Developing Countries: Education ...... 799W Child Birth: Greater London ...... 905W Developing Countries: HIV Infection ...... 799W Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease...... 890W EU Law...... 800W Clostridium Difficile ...... 891W Football: South Africa ...... 800W Clostridium Difficile: Screening ...... 891W Trade Unions: Finance...... 800W Day Care: Greater London ...... 892W Dental Services: Yorkshire and Humber ...... 892W JUSTICE...... 820W Departmental Grants...... 892W Arrest Warrants ...... 820W Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE—continued WALES...... 813W Departmental Grants...... 820W Grants...... 813W EU Law...... 822W UN Food and Agriculture Organisation ...... 813W Prisons: Visits...... 822W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 809W PRIME MINISTER ...... 836W Black Asian and Minority Ethnic Women Pupils: Bullying...... 836W Councillors Taskforce: Expenditure...... 809W PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION ...... 824W Departmental Written Questions ...... 824W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 856W Asbestos: Employers’ Liability...... 879W SCOTLAND...... 819W Atos Healthcare ...... 856W Departmental Sponsorship ...... 820W Children: Maintenance ...... 857W Devolution...... 820W Cold Weather Payments ...... 860W Elections ...... 819W Departmental Contracts ...... 860W VAT ...... 820W Departmental Grants...... 860W Departmental Regulation...... 861W TRANSPORT ...... 813W Disability Living Allowance: Care Homes ...... 862W Biofuels...... 813W Employment Schemes ...... 863W East Midlands Airport: Security ...... 814W Employment Schemes: Scotland ...... 864W Lake Windermere: Speed Limits ...... 814W Housing Benefit ...... 864W Official Cars: Liquefied Natural Gas ...... 815W Housing Benefit: Newham ...... 865W Parking: Fines...... 815W Housing Benefit: North East...... 866W Stourbridge to Walsall Freight Rail Line...... 815W Housing Benefit: Worcestershire ...... 866W Transport: Expenditure...... 815W Industrial Accidents: Construction ...... 866W Industrial Health and Safety: Inspections ...... 867W TREASURY ...... 838W Jobcentre Plus: Rural Areas ...... 867W Air Passenger Duty ...... 838W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Fraud ...... 868W Banks: Finance ...... 839W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Hearing Impaired ...... 869W Banks: Loans ...... 839W Mobility Allowance: Children...... 869W Copyright: Music...... 839W Mortgage Payments ...... 870W Employers’ Liability: Asbestos...... 839W Poverty: Children ...... 870W Income Tax ...... 840W Private Finance Initiative Scheme ...... 871W Members: Correspondence ...... 840W Social Rented Housing: Reform...... 871W Mortgages...... 840W Social Security Benefits...... 871W Private Finance Initiative: Newton Abbot...... 842W Social Security Benefits: Adoption...... 872W Revenue and Customs: Marketing ...... 842W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 873W Tax Yields ...... 843W Social Security Benefits: Reform ...... 877W Taxation: Music ...... 845W Universal Credit: Welfare...... 878W VAT: Churches...... 845W Vacancies: Peterborough ...... 879W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 1 December 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 801] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 (Amendment) [Col. 822] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Alison McGovern)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill [Col. 825] Further considered in Committee

National Policy Statements [Col. 889] Motion—(Charles Hendry) Motion lapsed

Libel Law [Col. 930] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Constitutional Law [Col. 939] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Candour in Health Care [Col. 269WH] PACE (Stop and Search) [Col. 291WH] HIV [Col. 299WH] Metal Theft [Col. 323WH] Health Care (North Yorkshire and York) [Col. 332WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 73WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 799W] [see index inside back page]