Wednesday Volume 501 25 November 2009 No. 5

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 25 November 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 513 25 NOVEMBER 2009 514

my hon. Friend the Member for North and House of Commons Arran (Ms Clark). In a letter I received from Ofcom, the regulator states: Wednesday 25 November 2009 “Ofcom does not have the power to mandate ISPs”— internet service providers. Surely that power is overdue, because otherwise, many of my constituents, along with The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock those of my colleagues, will continue to receive a poor broadband service. PRAYERS Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend makes some very important points about the decision-making powers and architecture [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] that will ensure we achieve 90 per cent. broadband penetration. We are trying to ensure that the market provides most of that, and we expect that up to two thirds—60 to 70 per cent.—of homes will be able to Oral Answers to Questions access super-fast broadband through the market. However, the Government will have to do additional things, and my hon. Friend can make the case for giving Ofcom additional powers; but, again, we are absolutely determined that no one be excluded for reasons of geography or income. The Secretary of State was asked— Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): Is the Secretary of Broadband State aware of The Press and Journal report today that, according to the Top 10 Broadband website, broadband speeds in Aberdeen and Inverness are running at about 1. Ms (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): half the rate of and Edinburgh, and that BT What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy does not know why? Will he undertake to find out why, of broadband coverage in Scotland. [300124] and recognise that high-tech global industries operate out of Aberdeen and need to have the same access as 3. Mr. Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): the best in the UK? What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of broadband coverage in Scotland. [300126] Mr. Murphy: The right hon. Gentleman, again, makes The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. ): a really important point, and the issue of access to Scotland and the UK are ahead of most of Europe on broadband for business and domestic users is crucial. broadband availability. However, we recognise that some The figures that I have show, however, that despite that people do still have problems accessing broadband, and worrying report in the newspaper, Aberdeen is ahead of that is being addressed through the “Digital Britain” most Scottish cities. The fact is that less than half of White Paper. people in Dundee and Edinburgh have access to super-fast broadband, and less than one third have access in Ms Clark: I thank the Secretary of State for his Glasgow. Aberdeen is in a much stronger position, but answer. Is he aware of the particular difficulties in rural we are determined to ensure that there is universal areas? I carried out a survey in my constituency recently, access in Aberdeen and beyond. and on average 11 per cent. of those who responded said that they had difficulty receiving broadband. In Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): Millport, the figure was 30 per cent. What can the What can the Government do to help or compel BT to Government do to intervene and ensure that the problem upgrade exchanges, especially in rural areas, to ensure is addressed quickly? greater broadband penetration for the islands of Scotland in particular? Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend has raised these issues regularly and campaigned on them, and she is right to Mr. Murphy: I recently had the opportunity to visit draw out the point about people who are locked out of the Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland, and the people digital broadband for reasons of geography or income— there raised those issues with me. It is important that whether in Millport, which I regularly enjoy visiting, or there be an upgrade for existing copper and wire networks, anywhere else throughout Scotland. We are determined but the Government are also committed to a 50 per that at least 90 per cent. of the country should have cent. levy on those with BT lines—[Interruption.] I access to super-fast broadband, and I am happy to have mean a 50p levy. [Interruption.] That is the tax at some more discussions with my hon. Friend about how we point in the future. There will be a 50p levy on those can ensure that that target is hit in her constituency. throughout the with a BT fixed line, and rural areas and island communities will benefit Mr. Donohoe: Does my right hon. Friend agree, however, from that. that Ofcom is perceived as a toothless tiger that requires more powers? I have campaigned on this issue with my Mr. Jim Hood (Lanark and Hamilton, East) (Lab): I hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock wish to take the positive message from the Secretary of (Sandra Osborne), my right hon. Friend the Member State today. I had an open meeting in Lanark last week for and Loudoun () and, indeed, with voluntary organisations and small businesses in 515 Oral Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 516 my constituency, particularly those in the Clyde valley, Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): TARA in so his statement today will be good news, but we should Scotland has seen a dramatic rise in the number of roll out the programme as quickly as we can. sex-trafficked women seeking its help. Sadly, the experience of large sporting events shows that the 2014 Commonwealth Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend makes the point that, games could bring many more. Will the Minister ensure for many people throughout Scotland and the UK, that her Government work closely with the Holyrood access to super-fast broadband is about a way of life. A Government to share the experiences of and lessons decade or so ago, such infrastructure and technology from tackling this problem at the Olympics, to ensure was a luxury; today, it is increasingly a necessity. It is that we minimise this horrible crime during the crucial that no one, for reasons of geography or income, Commonwealth games? be locked out of those changes. Ann McKechin: The hon. Lady raises a genuine issue People Trafficking of concern, a concern which I share. There is already close co-operation between those organising the Commonwealth games to be held in Glasgow and the 2. Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What Olympic games to be held in London, and I am sure recent assessment he has made of the extent to which that the lessons learned about how we tackle this problem people are trafficked between Scotland and . will be followed by colleagues in Scotland. [300125] Nuclear Waste The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Ann McKechin): The Secretary of State has made no 4. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): recent assessment of people trafficking between Scotland What recent discussions he has had with the First and England. Minister and Ministry of Defence officials on the storage of nuclear waste from the decommissioned Mr. Bone: That is rather disappointing. The Barnardo’s nuclear submarines moored at Rosyth; and if he will report, published last week, highlights the number of make a statement. [300127] young people who are trafficked within the United Kingdom for sexual exploitation. Will the Minister urge The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland a further review, so that more can be done to protect (Ann McKechin): Our Office is in frequent contact with those vulnerable people? the Ministry of Defence, and the MOD is in regular contact with Scottish Government officials regarding Ann McKechin: The hon. Gentleman rightly raises a this issue. No decisions on siting have yet been taken subject of great concern across the United Kingdom. I either for submarine dismantling or for waste storage. can assure him that there is close co-operation between all the police forces, including those in Scotland; of David Taylor: The hazardous life of some forms of course, this is a devolved function of the Scottish plutonium exceeds a quarter of a million years, so Government. There is a national referral mechanism thousands of generations of people in Ayrshire, Fife that is tracking child trafficking. Glasgow is one of the and Caithness may have to live with the presence of a 13 pilot areas that have been taking part in that project, toxic nuclear dump on their doorstep. Do these intolerable and we will have further information on its success later risks not show that the Trident programme should be next year. The Government give the highest priority to abandoned, not salami-sliced, and the £100 billion saved tackling this invidious crime and to ensuring that we invested in more socially useful projects in Scotland and arrest the perpetrators as soon as we possibly can. the rest of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Is my hon. Ann McKechin: I can assure my hon. Friend that the Friend aware of the TARA—trafficking awareness-raising MOD is committed to a safe, secure and cost-effective alliance—project in Glasgow, which so far this year has solution regarding dismantling submarines. The radiological taken 44 women trafficked for prostitution into care risk to the general public is assessed as extremely low and is looking after them with the support of the and it will remain so—but we are committed to ensuring Government and the Scottish Administration? Will she that there is a full public consultation at national level ask the police forces of Scotland to act on the Bill with all areas that may be identified as potential sites. passed just two weeks ago, which makes it a crime to demand, ask for or seek to pay for sex with any woman (Dunfermline and West Fife) (LD): who has been trafficked or coerced? In other words, it is The patience of people in West Fife is wearing thin, now the male punters who are responsible, and they because we have had these submarines for 25 years and must be brought before the courts and named and we lost the Trident refuelling contract in the ’90s. We shamed to slow down this disgraceful traffic. want rid of these submarines, and we want rid of them now. Will the Minister tell the Defence Secretary that Ann McKechin: My right hon. Friend rightly refers to when she next meets him? the very good work carried out by the TARA project over several years. The law on prostitution is different in Ann McKechin: I think it important to say to the hon. Scotland, but that does not mean that colleagues in Gentleman that we must take care to have a full assessment Scotland are not deeply concerned about the issues of and full consultation on the various options for surrounding prostitution, particularly trafficking. I can dismantling and storage. We are committed to carrying assure him that local authorities and the police in this out during 2010, and the MOD will take notice of Scotland are working very hard on that matter. any concerns raised by local communities. 517 Oral Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 518

Mr. (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): In Mrs. Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): My right hon. advance of the ’s publication of Friend might be aware that Prudential has regrettably its independence White Paper next week, we should announced this week 60 job losses at its site in Stirling. acknowledge the contribution to the Scottish economy However, Capita and Prudential still contribute made by the British submarine base at Faslane. Does approximately 2,500 private sector financial jobs to the the Minister agree that an independent Scotland would Stirling area. In his discussions at Scottish, UK and have a minimal defence capability and that the 3,000 international level, will he highlight the fact that the city jobs linked to that base would be put immediately at of Stirling has a lot to offer the financial services risk? industry, as we seek to re-establish credibility in that marketplace? Ann McKechin: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will have heard the recent comments of Mr. Jim Sillars Mr. Murphy: My right hon. Friend is right to remind regarding current SNP defence policy. It is clear that the the House that amidst all the understandable talk about cost of independence to Scotland in jobs would be an impending recovery, the recession is just starting for extremely high, and that many skills would be lost as a many people who have perhaps lost their jobs over result. recent weeks, or for small businesses that continue to struggle. That is why we are determined to do more. I Employment know she is a doughty fighter for the city of Stirling, and there is a huge amount to be optimistic about there, 5. Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): What recent as there is across the whole of Scotland. While of discussions he has had with Ministerial colleagues on course Scotland faces real difficulties at the moment, I the level of employment in Scotland. [300128] remain entirely optimistic that we will get through this recession strongly. The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues Mr. (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): about employment in Scotland and will be co-hosting Is the Secretary of State aware of the recent Fraser of Scotland’s first ever jobs summit on 11 January in Allander Institute report that estimates that over the Easterhouse in Glasgow. course of this year there will be 130,000 net job losses in Scotland, and which warns that the Scottish economy Mr. Robathan: What proportion of those in employment may not even come out of recession in the final quarter in Scotland are paid out of the public purse, either of this year? In those circumstances, does he believe through local, devolved or national Government? Are that his colleague the Secretary of State for Work and there any implications in that for a vibrant and dynamic Pensions was right to describe last month’s job figures Scottish economy? as “welcome news”? Mr. Murphy: The hon. Gentleman is of course welcome Mr. Murphy: It is always welcome news when people to attend the jobs summit in Easterhouse in Glasgow. I get back into work, and that is the point my colleague am sure he would be like a fish in water there. the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has made. The Scottish and UK Governments employ a substantial As people in Scotland and across the UK look towards number of the work force in Scotland, who do a remarkable Christmas and are increasingly concerned about how job, particularly at a time of recession, when they they will pay their bills or afford a good Christmas for provide support to those who are vulnerable. I pay their family, it is essential that we continue to do everything particular tribute to the staff of Jobcentre Plus, who at we can, aside from party politics, to get those folk back a very difficult time are providing real support to those into work. That is what the Labour Government are who need it during the recession. determined to do. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Mr. Carmichael: Complacency is bad enough from When my right hon. Friend speaks to his ministerial the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions; from the colleagues, will he ask them whether they will apply to Secretary of State for Scotland it is unforgivable. That the European Union globalisation fund, which is now same report points to the role of the Royal Bank of being provided just to respond to the current economic Scotland and HBOS in bringing Scotland’s economy downturn? For example, Ireland has just had £36 million, out of recession and states that as taxpayer-funded and it is about to move 500 jobs at Bausch and Lomb banks, they have to be prepared to lend more to small from West Lothian to Waterford in Ireland. Surely and medium-sized enterprises. What is the Secretary of when we are losing jobs, we can also apply to that fund State’s Department doing to ensure that the taxpayer, for money for Scotland to support employment there in having paid the piper, is now going to get to call the the face of the economic recession. tune? Mr. Speaker: Order. We really must have questions Mr. Murphy: I suspect that that supplementary question that are questions rather than the pursuit of Adjournment sounded better in front of the mirror this morning than debates. it did in the Chamber. We are doing everything we possibly can to get Scotland Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend raises some big issues. and the United Kingdom through this global recession. Of course it is essential that we do all we can to support We want to ensure that the newly unemployed do not people through this recession, and our tax system remains become the long-term unemployed, which is why the new internationally competitive. While we can learn individual investment in Jobcentre Plus, the support for the long-term lessons from other countries, I do not think the UK or unemployed and the targeted measures in the parts of Scotland would be well suited to following exactly the Scotland that are suffering most are the right things economic model of Ireland—or Iceland. to do. 519 Oral Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 520

David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Sandra Osborne: Between them, North Ayrshire and Tweeddale) (Con): May I be the first to congratulate the East Ayrshire councils have secured more than 500 jobs Secretary of State on being named best Scot at Westminster? for young people over the next 18 months through the I am sure the Prime Minister is delighted. future jobs fund. The Tory-nationalist coalition in South Month after month, Scottish unemployment rises; Ayrshire council, on the other hand, has secured none month after month, the Scotland Office issues a statement at all. What can the Secretary of State do to put the distancing the Government from responsibility, invoking maximum pressure on councils such as South Ayrshire global factors; and month after month, that looks less to allow young people to participate? credible. If the Government’s economic policies have been right for Scotland, can the Secretary of State Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend raises a really important explain to us why the US, France and Germany have all point, because we need to support young people who returned to growth, but over the same period Scottish have recently lost their jobs so that they do not spend gross domestic product has continued to fall? Given six months or a year out of work. It would be unforgivable that unemployment lags behind growth, are we to assume if local authorities did not provide that degree of support, that Scotland will suffer further from Labour’s legacy of so I will find ways to raise her concerns with South rising unemployment for many months to come? Ayrshire council. However, it is important that we provide that support for the long-term young unemployed and Mr. Murphy: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his best those who are middle-aged in particular problem areas wishes on my award. It was a very long shortlist, but I across Scotland. noticed he was not on it. I would nevertheless like to welcome the newest Member to the House, my hon. Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): Given the Secretary of Friend the Member for Glasgow, North-East (Mr. Bain). State’s recent decision to reject the QinetiQ proposals for upgrading the Ministry of Defence ranges on Benbecula, On the hon. Gentleman’s substantive point, there are is he confident that there will be no job losses on the a quarter of a million more people in work in Scotland Hebrides ranges for the next three years? [Interruption.] today than when his party left power, but we are determined If he cannot be confident of that, will he ensure that the to do an awful lot more. The worst thing we could do is future jobs fund will be applied to the islanders of follow the prognosis of Conservative economics in the North Uist, Benbecula and South Uist? [Interruption.] midst of this recession. Mr. Speaker: Order. Just before the Secretary of State : The Secretary of State’s monologues answers that question, may I reiterate the appeal that I about history are almost as predictable as those press make every week for a decline in the number of private releases on unemployment from the Scotland Office. conversations? I say this to the hon. Member for West We want to talk about the present. There are 270,000 Chelmsford (Mr. Burns): every week he indulges in people in Scotland on incapacity benefit under this these conversations, every week it is very tedious and Government. That cannot be justified—when will he every week it is not necessary. Let us have an end to it. take steps to get these people re-tested? All those found to be either ready to work or ready to prepare for work Mr. Murphy: I am aware that the hon. Member for should be given support by specialist organisations; West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) does not have much instead, they are ignored by his Government. When will interest in Scotland or Scottish questions, but the decision he put that right? that was taken about saving the ranges on the Uists was very important. Again, it shows the benefit of Scotland Mr. Murphy: We introduced the Welfare Reform being part of the United Kingdom. We remain committed Act 2007, which ensures that we provide new support to to those firing ranges on the Uists, but we have to those on incapacity benefit, particularly those who ensure that they attract new business and that we achieve experience fluctuating mental health conditions, and diversity in the economy in the Western Isles, which is especially women in their 30s and 40s, in respect of important to their future. whom there is an additional trend that is worrying for us all. Tourism However, it is nauseating to listen to the hon. Gentleman lecture us on incapacity benefit. We are doing everything 7. Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): What recent discussions we can to support those people in getting off that he has had with ministerial colleagues on the effect on benefit. The fact is that when his Government were in the tourism industry in Scotland of proposed changes power, they deliberately manufactured the unemployment to the furnished holiday lettings rules. [300130] figures by deliberately taking people off unemployment and sticking them on to a life of benefit dependency on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland incapacity benefit, for which they will never be forgiven. (Ann McKechin): My right hon. Friend has discussions with ministerial colleagues on a range of issues. Future Jobs Fund Mr. Weir: The Minister will be aware that many 6. Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): groups, including the Association of Scotland’s Self-Caterers What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of and the Federation of Small Businesses Scotland, have the operation of the future jobs fund in Scotland. raised concern about the impact of the proposed abolition [300129] of furnished holiday letting relief. Alternative solutions have been proposed that would be tax neutral and The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): support the industry. Will she urge the Treasury to look Future jobs fund vacancies are available in every local again at this matter to avoid serious damage to the authority area in Scotland. To date, 44 bids have been economy in many areas of rural Scotland, including approved in Scotland, offering almost 7,000 jobs. mine? 521 Oral Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 522

Ann McKechin: As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, Rail Services (Economic Impact) the current rules were understood not to comply with EU law, nor were they fair to other residential landlords. 9. John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): What discussions It is also likely that if we had kept the rules as they he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on stood, it would have had a negative impact on tourism, the effect on the Glasgow and Lanarkshire economy of both in Scotland and the UK. There are only 60,000 future provision of rail services to the west of Scotland individuals in the UK claiming this benefit, but there operated by East Coast. [300133] were 15 million overnight tourist visits in Scotland last year, so we consider that the change will not have any The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland major impact on tourism. (Ann McKechin): My right hon. Friend and I have regular discussions with colleagues on a wide range of Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire, North) (Lab): issues. The biggest barrier to tourists visiting holiday homes in Scotland is the lack of a proper transport infrastructure. John Mason: Does the Minister agree that the airport Will my hon. Friend join the Scottish trade unions and rail link, while desirable, is a luxury at present, but the business leaders in calling on the SNP Administration East Coast link is essential to Glasgow’s economy? at Holyrood to reverse the decision to cancel the Glasgow airport rail link? Ann McKechin: The hon. Gentleman might wish to Ann McKechin: As my hon. Friend might suspect, follow the example of the newest Member of the House, there is only one Glasgow MP who does not support my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, North-East the rail link to the airport, the creation of 1,300 jobs or (Mr. Bain), in agreeing with the business community in the ambitions of the city for the future. I deeply regret Scotland that the Glasgow airport rail link project is the decision and I hope that it will now be reconsidered. not only desirable but affordable and will create 1,300 jobs. The hon. Gentleman seems to have no interest in that Economic Inactivity whatsoever.

8. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What recent Devolution discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the level of economic inactivity 10. Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): What discussions in Scotland. [300131] he intends to have with ministerial colleagues on the The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): recommendations of the Commission on Scottish I have regular discussions with the Secretary of State Devolution. [300134] for Work and Pensions on the level of economic inactivity in Scotland. The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): I have had many discussions with Cabinet colleagues John Howell: Office for National Statistics figures during preparation for the Government’s proposals for show that the number of people in Scotland becoming the future of Scotland within the United Kingdom, and economically inactive rose by 20 per cent. more than the with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will make a statement UK average. Why is Scotland so much worse? on that this afternoon.

Mr. Murphy: Scotland is better off because it is part Lindsay Roy: My right hon. Friend is about to make a of the United Kingdom. The four nations of the UK statement to the House and I do not wish to steal his are stronger together during this recession than would thunder, so I merely ask whether the commission’s otherwise be the case, and most people in Scotland now report is the outcome of diverse national conversations. accept that. There are 250,000 more people in work in Scotland than when the hon. Gentleman’s party left Mr. Murphy: The commission’s report is the work of power, and his party has not been listened to on this months of research and evidence and is based on the recession in Scotland because of how it behaved while support of the . The process is in government during the last recession in Scotland. supported by the Labour party, the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats. Only one party stands Rosemary McKenna (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and outside the consensus, and unfortunately the Scottish Kirkintilloch, East) (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend National party Government continue to boycott the share my anger at the Opposition for refusing to vote entire process. for any support that we give to the unemployed in Scotland, and for the abandonment of people in the 1980s and 1990s that this Government reversed in 1997? Mr. Murphy: It is clear that the Labour Government PRIME MINISTER are doing everything that we can to get people through this recession. It is also clear that we cannot stop every job being lost—that is the unavoidable and harsh reality The Prime Minister was asked— of the world economy these days—but we can do everything possible to get people back into work so that they never Engagements suffer from long-term unemployment. That is why the measures we have taken are so important, and the Q1. [301117] Dr. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of blocking of those measures by the Opposition has been Durham) (Lab): If he will list his official engagements so unforgivable. for Wednesday 25 November. 523 Oral Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 524

The Prime Minister (Mr. ): Before listing As has been said, one of the biggest issues is the state my engagements this week, I am sure that the House of the bridges in Cumbria. Communities have been cut will wish to join me in paying tribute to Sergeant Robert in half and trips to school that used to take five minutes Loughran-Dickson from the 4th Regiment Royal Military now take an hour and a half. The Prime Minister spoke Police who has died in Afghanistan. The debt of gratitude about what is being done on a national basis, including that we owe to him is permanent, and we send our mobilising Army resources, and about plans for a temporary sincere condolences to his family and friends. He, and bridge. How quickly could that temporary bridge be the sacrifice he has made, will not be forgotten. put up to help families come together? All of us will also want to pay tribute to Police The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the right hon. Constable Bill Barker, who tragically died in Cumbria Gentleman for all that he has said about the whole in the course of duty, serving the community to which range of emergency services on which we depend. It is he was so committed. We remember those individuals at times like these that we realise the importance of all who lost their lives during the recent floods. Our thoughts the public and voluntary services that help our country. are with their families and friends, and all those affected As I said, we are examining whether a temporary bridge by the serious flooding. They will have our support now could be put across the River Derwent. As he knows, we and into the future. Let us as a House also pay tribute to are also looking at how we can fund and finance the the emergency services, armed forces and all organisations construction of a temporary rail station that will allow doing an outstanding job working round the clock to transport in the area. I believe from the information help those areas of our country affected by the floods. that I have had that that could be done fairly quickly, Dr. Blackman-Woods: May I begin by associating but we await the report of the military engineers who myself with the Prime Minister’s comments about the are working with the local authorities as we speak this death of Sergeant Loughran-Dickson in Afghanistan? morning. I hope that the Secretary of State for Environment, As the Prime Minister said, in the past week we have Food and Rural Affairs will be able to give further witnessed appalling flooding in Cumbria and near-misses information this afternoon. Let me say absolutely that in many other places, including in my constituency. We the costs of those repairs will be met by the Department know that the emergency services are providing excellent for Transport. support now, but will he reassure the House that help Mr. Cameron: People will be very grateful for that will be available for as long as needed to get people back answer and that assurance about the funding. With on their feet and to help prevent flooding in the future? Christmas coming, it will be incredibly hard on those The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, families who cannot get back into their homes. Whether who has taken an interest in such matters over many it is contacting the insurance companies so that they years. The floods were the worst that we have seen. It pay out quickly, contributing to the community fund, was a terrible time, as I found out, and as many others which is set up in cases of hardship, or contacting in the House also found out when they visited the area. public and private landlords so that empty homes are I pay tribute to the local MP who has done so much to made available, can the Prime Minister assure us that comfort and help people. everything that can be done will be done to help those It might be helpful if I update the House on what is families in the run-up to Christmas? happening and assure people that our support will The Prime Minister: The Minister for Regional Economic continue right throughout the troubles facing the area. Development and Co-ordination met the Association Some 39 bridges remain closed. We are examining the of British Insurers yesterday. She received a full assurance possibility of a temporary bridge and temporary station, that insurers would act quickly on all claims that were and this morning, a team of military engineers is assessing being made to them, particularly those claims that the possibility of a temporary pedestrian bridge across required the provision of emergency accommodation the River Derwent. The Department for Transport will during a period when people are out of their homes. fund bridge and road repairs. I believe that 40 people Obviously we hope that people will get back to their are still in rest centres. Consultations with the insurance homes as quickly as possible. industry are taking place to ensure that people can return to their homes or have, as a result of action by the council, We know that the insurance industry will act for alternative accommodation. The Flood and Water those people who have claims that allow the payment of Management Bill, which deals with some of those issues money for temporary accommodation, but in those in the longer term, will come before the House before circumstances where the local authority has to act to Christmas. Let me praise all the emergency services that provide accommodation for people, it will do so. The have done so much to help people in this time of need. right hon. Gentleman will recall from being there yesterday that a large number of the people affected were very Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): May I join the elderly people who live in accommodation for the elderly. Prime Minister in paying tribute to Sergeant Robert We are determined to ensure that the provision of Loughran-Dickson, who was killed in Afghanistan last alternative accommodation is up and running and able week? As the Prime Minister said, our thoughts should to meet their needs as soon as possible. It is true that it be with his family. I also join him in paying tribute to takes time when houses are flooded for people to get PC Bill Barker, who died in the line of duty protecting back into them, but we are doing everything in our the lives of others from those dreadful floods in Cumbria. power to get people back into their homes as quickly as As the Prime Minister also said, PC Bill Barker was possible. I have also talked to the leader of the council, part of an extraordinary effort by emergency services Councillor Jim Buchanan, who has satisfied himself and voluntary groups such as Mountain Rescue, which that we are doing what we can. worked day and night to keep people safe. As the Prime Minister and I have seen, the community spirit shown Mr. Cameron: I am very grateful for those answers, by residents in dealing with the floods is a real inspiration. and people in Cumbria will be too. 525 Oral Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 526

Let me turn to a completely different subject, one the law-abiding majority of this country. I do not want that I raised two years ago. I asked the Prime Minister it to be said that those people who are citizens of our about the extremist group Hizb ut-Tahrir and why, country who hold the Muslim faith are to be held despite an explicit promise by that it would responsible for acts of terrorism. Where there is abuse, be banned, it still has not been banned. Hizb ut-Tahrir’s it will be investigated. In the case of Hizb ut-Tahrir, we constitution states that non-Muslims are “combatants have investigated and looked at it. It is not a proscribed in the battlefield” and that their organisation and if the right hon. Gentleman has new “blood is…lawful…as is their property”. evidence that should make us proscribe it, we shall look Although he has not been able to ban Hizb ut-Tahrir, at it again. As far as the two schools are concerned, they can the Prime Minister at least assure me that this will be properly inspected and every argument the right extremist group has not received any public money? hon. Gentleman has made will be looked at closely, but he would not expect me, without looking at the evidence, The Prime Minister: I am not aware of Hizb ut-Tahrir to draw early conclusions. receiving any public money. If the right hon. Gentleman has evidence of that, perhaps he will give it to me. Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister talks about Mr. Cameron: Well, I will not only give it to the Prime investigating Hizb ut-Tahrir. This is an organisation Minister, but my hon. Friend—[Interruption.] What is that said Jews should be killed “wherever you find extraordinary is that my hon. Friend the shadow schools them”. That is what that organisation says. Let me ask Secretary wrote to the Prime Minister’s right hon. Friend the Prime Minister about another organisation because the schools Secretary a week ago about the issue. Let me there is a sense that this Government have just not got a draw the Prime Minister’s attention to the fact that two grip on the issue of Islamic extremism. Take the group schools have been established by an extremist Islamist Islam for the UK. The leader of this group, Anjum foundation, the ISF or Islamic Shaksiyah Foundation, Chaudri, claims that the 9/11 bombers were “magnificent” which is a front organisation for Hizb ut-Tahrir. The people ISF has secured a total of £113,000 of Government “carrying out their Islamic responsibility”. money, some of which was from the pathfinder scheme, The group has apparently called for whose objective is meant to be preventing violent extremism. “blood on the streets of London and New York”. Can the Prime Minister explain how that completely When the Prime Minister replies for the last time, unacceptable situation came about? perhaps he can tell us why this group has not been The Prime Minister: I am happy to say that this will banned as well? be looked into in every detail. I am told that the two Is it not the case that people will see that we have a schools that the right hon. Gentleman referred to have Government who say they want to prevent extremism, been inspected. I will look at the results of those inspections yet their money is funding extremists; that we have a and write to him. We are dealing with grants of £113,000 Government who say we should not have extremist-led of public money, as he said, and two schools that I do schools, yet we have those schools? Above all, when is not know the names of, and I shall look at this matter the Prime Minister going to tell us how he is going to very carefully. get a grip on this issue? Mr. Cameron: I am grateful for that, but there can be The Prime Minister: To proscribe an organisation, we no doubt that the organisation that I mentioned is a need full evidence and that evidence needs to be looked front organisation for Hizb ut-Tahrir. Two of its four at in detail in the cold light of day, and I think the right trustees are members of Hizb ut-Tahrir, and the head hon. Gentleman may regret some of the remarks he has teacher and proprietor of one of the schools—a school made this morning. As to our activities against terrorism in Slough—are members of Hizb ut-Tahrir. I find it in this country, we have doubled the security staff hard to understand why the Prime Minister does not available to deal with terrorism; we have doubled the know about that, given that we were asking—[Interruption.] number of police who are dealing with potential terrorist incidents; we have put 100 people into prison since 2001 Mr. Speaker: Order. Government Back Benchers are as a result of terrorist acts; we are monitoring very becoming far too excitable today. The Leader of the closely people who enter this country, including through Opposition must be heard. the use of the identity card that foreign people coming Mr. Cameron: Given that the Opposition have been to this country have to hold; and we are using the DNA asking questions about this issue in Parliament for database to check up on people, much against the almost a month and that the shadow schools Secretary advice of other parties. We are doing everything in our wrote to his opposite number a week ago, how can the power to deal with the terrorist threat in this country Government have an anti-extremist fund that results in and I thought it was a matter of all-party consensus a Labour local authority handing out money to extremists? that proscription should be on the basis of evidence, This is a school set up by extremists, passed by Ofsted which was clearly proven, of advocating violence. That and approved by the Charity Commission, but in receipt is the position that both parties accepted; that is the of public money. Does not that prove that we need a position that we will continue to follow. much bigger inquiry into how things like this can happen? Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): Does my right The Prime Minister: Let me say that everything that hon. Friend agree with the comments of the chief the right hon. Gentleman has said will be investigated inspector of constabulary today that it is time to reassert in great detail. Let me also say that the letter written by the principles of the traditional British model of the shadow schools Secretary a few days ago will be approachable, impartial and accountable policing based replied to. Let me also say—let us be clear about this—that on minimum force for major public order events such as the vast majority of Muslims in our country are part of the G20? 527 Oral Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 528

The Prime Minister: I absolutely agree that it is The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely important that policing is of the best. Where mistakes right to raise the anxieties that people have had about are made or where there are question marks, they have the system of bank charges in our country. Although got to be answered. We have procedures for doing so. I the court judgment has not upheld the case of the know that the events at the G20 caused a great deal of Office of Fair Trading, it is right that we examine how anger and sadness for people when we had the casualty. fairness can be applied in all cases to people who are It is very important that we take the action that reassures banking customers in this country. As far as the banks people that policing will always be fair. that we are responsible for at this moment are concerned— Northern Rock, HBOS Lloyds and RBS—we have asked Mr. Nick Clegg (, Hallam) (LD): I would them to review their overdraft charges over the past few obviously like to add my own expressions of sympathy weeks in order to be fairer to their customers, and they and condolence to the family and friends of Sergeant have done so. Under the Financial Services Bill, which Robert Loughran-Dickson of the Royal Military Police, is now before the House, a damages fund will have to be who tragically died serving in Afghanistan last week. I set up by banks to deal with complaints by customers of also add my tribute to PC Bill Barker, who lost his life in overcharging. There is now the possibility for class the line of duty dealing with the terrible floods in actions to be taken in court, which could not happen Cumbria. Our hearts go out to his wife and four children. before, so that a group of customers can take banks to At such times we all remember that it is the brave men court. There is now power given to the Financial Services and women of our emergency services who keep us safe Authority, for the first time, to impose settlements on when it really counts. We thank them for it. banks to repay customers they have overcharged. The It is vital that the , which started its work proposed legislation will strengthen the rights of customers, this week, is able to reveal the full truth about the as we have sought to do over the past two years, so that decisions leading up to the invasion of Iraq. Will the they get a fairer deal from the banking system, as they Prime Minister therefore confirm that when Sir John should, in this country. Chilcot and his colleagues come to publish their final report, they will able to publish all information available Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): to them, with the sole exception of information essential When did the Prime Minister first realise that he was to national security? infallible?

The Prime Minister: I have set out a remit and brought The Prime Minister: I deal with the issues as they it to the House of Commons. Sir John Chilcot has been arise, and I do so as best I can. I believe that, over the given the freedom to conduct his inquiry as he wants. recession, we have dealt with the issues in a far better He has chosen to invite people to give evidence, and he way than we would have done had we followed the will choose how to bring his final report to the public. advice received from the hon. Gentleman’s party. That is a matter for the inquiry. Mr. Clegg: As I think the Prime Minister must know, Q3. [301119] Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) the matter is not just for the inquiry, because his (Lab/Co-op): How important is the work of the Government have just issued a protocol—I have it North-West regional development agency in delivering here—to members of the inquiry, governing the publication investment to business, science to Daresbury, and the of material in the final report. If he reads it, he will see successful “capital of culture” year to Liverpool as part that it includes nine separate reasons why information of the city’s ongoing regeneration? can be suppressed, most of which have nothing to do The Prime Minister: One of the biggest mistakes that with national security. Outrageously, it gives Whitehall could be made would be the abolition of the regional Departments individual rights of veto over the information development agencies in our country. In every region of in the final report. Why did the Prime Minister not tell the country the business organisations, the small business us about that before? How on earth will we, and the organisations, the engineering employees and the local whole country, hear the full truth of the decisions authorities say that the RDAs are doing a job that helps leading up to the invasion of Iraq if the inquiry is their businesses through a recession and creates new job suffocated on day one by his Government’s shameful opportunities for people. I think that the Conservative culture of secrecy? party would make a terrible mistake if they decided, in The Prime Minister: That is not what Sir John Chilcot an act of vindictive ideology, to abolish development has said. The issues affecting the inquiry that would agencies. cause people to be careful are national security and international relations. As I understand it, those are the Q4. [301120] Mr. Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): issues referred to in the protocol. I believe that Sir John The Government have compiled a secret list of sites in Chilcot and his team are happy with how they are being Argyll and Bute where they are thinking of dumping asked to conduct the inquiry. nuclear waste from old submarines. There is widespread opposition to the proposal in Argyll and Bute, and Q2. [301118] Mrs. Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): many communities fear that they are on the secret list. Britain’s top bankers rewarded their own financial greed Will the Government publish that list of secret sites and incompetence with large bonuses, while imposing today, so that a public debate can take place? huge banking charges on those who, because of need not greed, often went into the red. I am sure that many The Prime Minister: I have followed this issue over Members were dismayed at today’s Supreme Court the 26 years for which I have been a Member of Parliament, judgment. What will the Government do to ensure and it has been an issue for all those years. The question fairness for ordinary people—ordinary customers—within is where nuclear dismantling should happen, and where the banking system? the nuclear waste from submarines should be placed in 529 Oral Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 530 this country. It is right to consult MPs—as the hon. widely. The Youth Parliament met here only a few Gentleman has been consulted—and local representatives weeks ago, and we will continue to have an outreach to on the issue, and I understand that the Ministry of members of the community. That is essential in a modern- Defence is talking to MPs and elected representatives in day participatory democracy. the areas where there are potential sites. This is not happening behind closed doors. Members Q6. [301122] Mr. Eric Martlew (Carlisle) (Lab): I thank of Parliament are being asked for their views on these the Prime Minister for his words of comfort and very matters. encouragement to the people of Cumbria today, following last week’s devastating floods. In 2005 my Mr. Parmjit Dhanda (Gloucester) (Lab): On the subject constituency was flooded, and the Government were of tackling radicalisation, does the Prime Minister agree very generous in providing resources for flood defences. that in all such cases it is important that we listen to the It will cost £40 million just to rebuild the bridges in Association of Chief Police Officers? If an organisation west Cumbria, and probably the same amount to is proscribed, however much we may abhor its views—and rebuild the roads. Will the Prime Minister assure us we do—it will stay on the right side of the law, because that he and the Government will be able to help? The such organisations are quite clever in that way. The people of Cumbria cannot afford to pay that bill. danger is that proscription will merely create a recruiting sergeant, and possibly also lead to a judicial review. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Should we not listen to ACPO before deciding whether right—100 flood protection schemes have recently been to proscribe organisations of this kind, and should not brought in. One of them is for Carlisle, where £40 million the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) do is being spent to make sure there is proper protection likewise? against the floods that did so much damage the last time, and I understand that in the recent times about The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend brings a great 3,000 properties were prevented from being flooded as a deal of experience to the issue, and he is absolutely result of those new flood defence arrangements. We will right. Any decisions about proscription should be made look at what we have done. I have said already that the not on the basis of a few exchanges in the House of Environment Agency budget and the other budgets for Commons but on the basis of a detailed assessment of dealing with flood defences will rise to £800 million in what is right and what is wrong, and part of that 2010-11. That is a sign of our commitment to making involves taking police evidence into account. sure the whole country is best protected against flooding. As my hon. Friend says, we must not get into a position in which the decisions that we make act as a Q7. [301123] Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) recruiting sergeant for militants in this country. We are (Con): Is the Prime Minister aware of his schools taking every action that we can to deal with the terrorist Secretary’s pre-Budget statement to the annual Youth threat in this country, and I think that, on an all-party Justice convention two weeks ago protecting the youth basis, we should be united in saying that we doing what justice budget for the next two years? If that is true, we can to ensure that the al-Qaeda threat—[Interruption.] what cuts will be made to accommodate that cross- The shadow Chancellor is saying something about money. departmental commitment? We have doubled the amount of money being spent on security. That would not happen under a Conservative The Prime Minister: It is the hon. Gentleman’s party Government, because they would not be prepared to that wants to cut massively public spending, and it make the funds available. Why, when we are dealing wants to cut it this year and next year. In fact, it is the with the issue of spending, do they persist in their only major party in Europe that wants to withdraw the policy on inheritance tax—[Interruption]—whose fiscal stimulus now when it is absolutely necessary to beneficiaries resemble the Leader of the Opposition’s keep the economy moving forward. If I were him, I Christmas card list? would be asking the Leader of the Opposition why his policy is so designed to cut money from policing, education Q5. [301121] Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): Unlock and all the services that the public depend upon now. Democracy has proposed the establishment of a citizens’ convention to consider a renewal of faith in Q8. [301124] Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) the House and in Parliament. Is the Prime Minister (Lab): May I congratulate the Prime Minister on his willing to support that, and if a private Member early decision to attend at Copenhagen, a lead that has presents a Bill to that effect following tomorrow’s now been followed by 60 Prime Ministers and Presidents ballot, will he give it Government time? from around the world? When he is in Copenhagen, will he seek to harness that high-level attendance to ensure The Prime Minister: I welcome the report from my that the best possible package of clean development hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) funding is on the table in order to secure the sign-up of on the reform of this Parliament. It is right for us to developing countries to a workable climate change consider how our Select Committee system can be agreement? reformed so that it is better in the future. It is also right for us to consider how non-Government business is The Prime Minister: I want to praise my hon. Friend dealt with, and how we can improve the workings of the for the work he has done in promoting a climate change House. I believe that there will be a warm welcome for agreement, and the work of Members of all parties who some of the proposals in the report. want to see success at Copenhagen. I will go to the As for the question of our House becoming more Commonwealth conference this week to try to build a open to the views of people outside, the hon. Gentleman consensus between richer countries such as Australia is absolutely right to suggest that we need to consult and ourselves and some of the poorest countries in the 531 Oral Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 532 world on how we can finance climate change for developing The Prime Minister: The operational independence countries as well as developed countries. If we are to get of chief police officers is and has been, and should an agreement to cut emissions in some of the poorest continue to be, an important constitutional principle. It countries in the world, it is absolutely essential that we must be clear that chief officers—and chief officers get an agreement on finance. I hope all parties here will alone—are responsible for running their force. I believe support the British proposal for $100 billion of funding that the Leader of the Opposition should immediately for climate change in 2020 as a result of the contributions withdraw his proposal, which would mean the politicisation of the European Union, America and some of the other of the police and which has been criticised by the richest countries in the world. We will do everything in chairman of Association of Chief Police Officers in the our power to secure a climate change agreement in past few days. Copenhagen. Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con): Whatever our In March, when the Lord Chancellor talked out my individual positions on Afghanistan, it is very important private Member’s Bill to end the discrimination against that there is clarity regarding the mission. The Prime Catholics in royal marriages and against women in the Minister has said we are in Afghanistan to protect line of succession, he said that the Government recognised British people against terrorism, yet, almost in the same that this discrimination should end. Can the Prime breath, he threatens to pull out of the country if President Minister confirm that he is, as the Lord Chancellor Karzai cannot clean up his corrupt Government. These said, ready to consult the relevant Commonwealth Heads are contradictory messages that are sending out mixed of Government this week and that he is confident that signals. Can the Prime Minister now square that circle? we will then be able to sort this out, so that the all-party—

The Prime Minister: We are in the country because of Mr. Speaker: Order. We get the drift. I call the Prime the threat to Britain. It is a threat that has been seen Minister. over eight years as a result of projected and actual terrorist offences in our country, three quarters of which The Prime Minister: The Act of Settlement is outdated, come from Afghanistan and Pakistan, and mainly the and I think that most people recognise the need for borders of Pakistan. That is why we are there—to change. Change can be brought about only by not just protect the streets of Britain. I was right to ask President the United Kingdom, but all realms where Her Majesty Karzai to give us assurances about how, in his second is Queen making a decision to change. That is why it is term, he would tackle corruption. He has now announced important to discuss this with all members of the an anti-corruption taskforce. I gather that 12 people Commonwealth, including countries such as Australia were arrested yesterday from within the core administration. and Canada. That is the process that will be undertaken At the same time, I have asked him to appoint district in due course. and regional governors who are free of corruption and who will deal with the problems in hand, as Governor Q10. [301126] Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) Mangal is doing in Helmand province, and President (Lab): Is my right hon. Friend aware of the growing Karzai has agreed to do so. By his speeches, President evidence, including in the recent report “Northampton Karzai has met the tests I have set him, and we have Families and the Recession”, to show that as a result of now got to see them being met in the delivery. I believe the recession, women are doing more of the that next week we will see the American Government breadwinning and men are doing more of the caring? and the rest of NATO coming together in a strategy What further measures will his Government take to that will mean that we have sufficient forces to create support the flexible working arrangements needed for the space for a political solution in Afghanistan that today’s working families? will make our streets safer. It is as clear as that. The Prime Minister: There are about 500,000 more Q9. [301125] (Manchester, Central) (Lab): families receiving working tax or child tax credit as a The Prime Minister will be aware of the warning from result of the help we are giving in a recession. People in Sir Hugh Orde, the top cop’s top cop, of the dangers of this country have to make a choice: do we want to help and widespread unease about the investments in police families and help children through these difficult times commissioners. Can the Prime Minister tell the House or do we want to cut inheritance tax for the wealthiest whether this Labour Government will ever allow the people in this country? I think I know what choice the police to be politicised, as the Conservatives propose? people of this country are going to make. 533 25 NOVEMBER 2009 Indemnity to Bank of England 534

Indemnity to Bank of England The Governor’s judgment is that now that RBS has signed up for the asset protection scheme and Lloyds Banking Group has embarked on its alternative strategy 12.32 pm for capital raising, there is no longer a need for the assistance to remain secret and it is now appropriate to The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. ): disclose details. I agree with his judgment. Mr Speaker, with permission, I should like to make a As the Governor said, from 1 October 2008 the Bank short statement on the emergency liquidity assistance provided liquidity to HBOS, and from 7 October to provided by the Bank of England to the banking system. RBS. Use of the facilities peaked at £36.6 billion for One of the functions of central banks is to provide RBS on 17 October and £25.4 billion for HBOS on emergency liquidity to banks when it is necessary to do 13 November. The total use of emergency liquidity so. Lender of last resort facilities have been a feature of assistance across both banks peaked at £61.6 billion on the banking system for many years, because there will 17 October. At that point, the two banks concerned be times when an individual bank or, as we saw last provided the Bank with collateral—including residential year, several banks find it difficult or impossible to raise mortgages, Government debt and personal and commercial the funds they need from the market. It is therefore loans—totalling in excess of £100 billion. The banks essential that the Bank of England has the power to were charged fees for the use of the facilities. The RBS lend to individual banks facing such temporary liquidity facility was repaid in full by 16 December 2008, and the problems. It is important, too, that the Bank of England HBOS facility by 16 January 2009. There has been no can do so effectively. Inevitably, on occasion, that means cost to the taxpayer. that the Bank has to be able to do so without disclosing By that time, the Government’s recapitalisation of its operations. the banking system was in place. That, alongside other Disclosure of individual operations could lead to a action such as the credit guarantee scheme, stabilised loss of confidence and exacerbate any short-term liquidity the banking system. Because of the scale of these problems. That was exactly the problem we saw with liquidity operations by the Bank of England compared Northern Rock in September 2007. It was a problem with the size of its balance sheet, I granted an indemnity recognised by the House, and by the Treasury Committee in October 2008 to cover potential losses in respect of in its report on Northern Rock—it recognised that further lending. The indemnity was provided for actions some operations needed to be kept confidential. taken by the Bank of England from 14 October 2008 for a period of two months. In return, the Bank of Early in 2008, we consulted on proposals to facilitate England paid the Treasury a commercial fee totalling limited disclosure of the provision of emergency liquidity £18.9 million. to ensure that such assistance could be made effective. Following that, the Banking Act 2009 provided an end In my view, it is essential that the Bank has the to automatic disclosure of liquidity assistance by the discretion to provide emergency liquidity assistance Bank of England. This enabled the Bank to decide the when it judges it necessary to do so. Over the past year, most appropriate way in which to make disclosures to we have had to provide extraordinary support in what the market. The Financial Services Authority, too, has are extraordinary times. I have kept the House informed said there may be good reasons for delaying disclosure with numerous statements and made it clear that we of emergency liquidity operations. would do whatever it took to stabilise the banking system. As a result, no savers in UK banks or building Twelve months ago, we faced a situation in which the societies have lost money. world banking system was on the brink of collapse. No Inevitably, some of the support had to be provided one should underestimate the gravity of the situation on a confidential basis—something that most people that we then faced. Protecting retail depositors and recognise. The judgment on when it is the right time to maintaining financial stability was essential. That was disclose such operations is a fine one, but I support the why I said in my statement to the House on 6 October Governor’s decision to disclose the information yesterday. 2008 that the Governor had made it clear that I commend the statement to the House. “in these extraordinary market conditions, the Bank of England will take all actions necessary to ensure the banking system has Mr. George Osborne (Tatton) (Con): Let me start by access to sufficient liquidity”.—[Official Report, 6 October 2008; Vol. 480, c. 21.] making it absolutely clear that we support the actions taken by the Bank of England to maintain financial That was what we did. The Governor’s decision to make stability. I completely agree with the Chancellor that, as emergency liquidity available was quite right and we a general principle, the central bank must be able to supported it. carry out its lender of last resort function with the Yesterday, the Governor of the Bank of England told discretion that it deems necessary to preserve the financial the Treasury Committee that the Bank had extended system. Its ability to do so will remain under the reform such emergency liquidity assistance to the Royal Bank structure of financial regulation that we intend to of Scotland and HBOS in the autumn of 2008. He told implement. the Committee that in most cases confidence can be As the deputy governor, Paul Tucker, said yesterday best sustained if the Bank’s support is disclosed only in his evidence to the Select Committee, these loans when the conditions have improved to a point where the were a classic lender of last resort operation. So, we disclosure itself should not be a cause for disturbance. support the principle of covert lending operations by However, he said that, as stated in his report, it is the the Bank, but of course we also have a responsibility to policy of the Bank that such assistance should be ask questions on behalf of the taxpayer once the details disclosed once the Bank considers that the need for of such operations are quite rightly made public. I shall confidentiality has ceased. therefore first ask the Chancellor specifically about his 535 Indemnity to Bank of England25 NOVEMBER 2009 Indemnity to Bank of England 536

[Mr. George Osborne] Finally, I should like to ask the Chancellor about something else that the Governor of the Bank of England role. He said that he authorised the indemnity, but will said to the Treasury Committee yesterday in his comments he confirm whether his authorisation was sought for the on Britain’s credit rating. When asked whether Britain loans made by the Bank of England, and indeed its was at risk of a downgrade, the Governor of our central operation? bank said: The Chancellor made this statement because the hon. “The longer there isn’t a credible plan that sets out what action will be taken on the debt, the more” Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) and I put in to ask an urgent question. Surely the Chancellor himself there is a risk to that credit rating. Does the Chancellor should be the person who initially informs Parliament agree that the only possible interpretation of those of operations on this scale, particularly when there are remarks is that the Governor does not think that there very large taxpayer indemnities that he signs off. It has, is currently a “credible plan” to deal with our budget of course, taken more than a year for the existence of deficit? Why is the Chancellor taking these risks with these loans to be disclosed. What discussions did the Britain’s credit rating? Chancellor have with the Governor over the last 12 months about whether the disclosure could have been made Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman raises a number of earlier? In particular, once the Government had declared matters, some of which are very important. I should their intention to insure the assets of both banks in like to deal with them, but I shall begin with a general January this year, what did the right hon. Gentleman point. He remarked on the state of RBS and HBOS, consider to be the remaining risks that would have and no one could disagree that what the banks did was resulted from the disclosure of the loans at that time? to get themselves into a situation where eventually they collapsed. However, his points about our regulatory My second question is partly to do with the issue of system simply do not hold water, as banks right across timing. Is the Chancellor personally satisfied that the the world got into trouble. Lehman Brothers was regulated Lloyds shareholders were given the maximum possible by the American authorities, as were the other American amount of information about the financial health of banks that went down. The hon. Gentleman mentioned HBOS in advance of the merger of the two banks? Was Germany, which has also seen banks go down. There the loan to HBOS fully repaid by the time of the merger was a problem with regulatory systems right across the in mid-January? What legal advice did he receive about world, and to suggest that the problem was somehow the level of disclosure required, and is he expecting any specific to us simply does not hold water. legal challenges from shareholders? I want to make another point about the American Thirdly, as the Chancellor implied in his statement, regulators. The problem for the Americans is that they the Banking Act 2009 removed the requirement for the have seven or eight different regulators. The Obama Bank of England to publish a weekly balance sheet. Administration are trying to get around it by establishing Was the existence of the loans a motivating factor some sort of council to bring them together. We have behind that change, which was of course proposed at only three organisations responsible—the Bank of England, the time that the loans were in existence? Is it desirable the FSA and the Treasury, which will always be involved that the Bank essentially has no requirement to where public money is. publish regular information about its balance sheet? If the hon. Gentleman thinks for one moment that Does he agree that that at least needs to be kept under merging the work of the FSA and the Bank of England, review? under which the Bank would be responsible for interest rate policy, macro-prudential supervision and the individual The sheer scale of the loans—they are more than the supervision of everything from large banks such as entire schools budget—raises the question of how the HSBC to an independent financial adviser in Ullapool— two banks were allowed to pursue funding models that doing all that at the same time—he is asking for trouble. left them so close to collapse in the first place. Does not The disruption would be tremendous. He should think that illustrate yet again the total failure of the tripartite long and hard—my guess is that he is—about whether system of regulation created by this Government? Does it he would ever see that policy through in the way that he not underline the need for fundamental reform to put originally announced it. the Bank of England back in charge of banking supervision? That argument is now explicitly supported The hon. Gentleman asked some important questions, by Jacques de Larosière, the architect of the European which I would like to deal with and on which I will do changes, and it is driving reforms in Germany, Belgium him a little more justice. First, he asked an important and America. Indeed, President Obama’s economic adviser question about disclosure. The House will remember Austan Goolsbee said this month that separating bank that during the period of Northern Rock, there was supervision from central banking can cause one to pretty much unanimous agreement that the Bank’s inability to act in a confidential way was in itself destabilising. “get into a ‘left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing’ Indeed, the hon. Gentleman wrote to urge me to do kind of problem in a crisis”. something to make it less obvious that the Bank was When asked to cite an example, he singled out the UK, engaged in such operations, and I agreed with him. The saying that the divided regulatory system had caused Banking Act 2009 means that that the Bank has the “a lot of problems”, yet the Government’s proposed discretion as to when it discloses what is going on. Financial Services Bill, which we will debate in a couple That discretion lies with the Governor of the Bank of of days’ time, does absolutely nothing to address that England. It ends the obligation to do a weekly return in flaw at the heart of the regulatory system. We all know which, if one looked at it closely, one could see what why—it was designed by the Prime Minister of this had been going on. At a time like last year, if people had country. realised the extent of what was necessary on a day-to-day 537 Indemnity to Bank of England25 NOVEMBER 2009 Indemnity to Bank of England 538 basis simply to keep banks open and their cash machines the completion of the asset protection scheme? Why operating—if that had been disclosed at the time, with was Parliament not told then? Why has he waited so all that turbulence—far from reassuring people, it would long to give us this information? One has to note, as the have made a difficult situation much, much worse. I shadow Chancellor did, that yesterday’s announcement think that the hon. Gentleman agrees with that proposition. occurred not in Parliament but in the middle of a That was why we changed the law in the Banking statement from the Governor. That statement was a Act—to try and make sure that there was not the devastating indictment of the Government’s policy of exposure that we had in relation to Northern Rock. not splitting up the banks, and this announcement was It is for the Governor to decide when the information hidden in the middle of it. is disclosed. His judgment was that now we have RBS in My second question is about the Chancellor’s clear the asset protection scheme—that agreement was finally statement that there was no cost to the taxpayer. Is that signed just this week—and Lloyds is pursuing its alternative true? My understanding of the lender of last resort action, and with that water between us and the turbulence facility is that it carries a commercial rate of interest, of last year, it was safe to disclose this information. As I but my understanding of these loans is that there was said in my statement, the judgment will always be a fine no interest involved. Will he clarify the position on this? one, but that was his judgment and I agree with it. If there was a concessional element to the lending, that The hon. Gentleman asked the important question, would mean that a very large public subsidy was involved, in relation to Lloyds, of what was said. The legal even though the loans were repaid. A very large risk was responsibility to shareholders lies with the board of taken with taxpayers’ money, and there was an enormous directors of a particular institution. In November 2008, potential cost. We need to be absolutely clear that that when Lloyds published its pre-merger statement, it said: cost was paid for by the banks. Will the Chancellor “The HBOS Group expects that it will substantially rely for the clarify what the interest rates actually were? foreseeable future on the continued availability of these government My third question is on the link with Lloyds. The sponsored arrangements, including central bank liquidity facilities (such as those offered by the Bank of England)”. Chancellor has just brought the historical record up to date by reading out what was said by the directors at the It put that statement in. It is for the directors of that time. Indeed, he is quite right to say that there was a bank, properly advised, to decide what they disclose, general warning that continuing liquidity was required but I can tell the House that the directors of Lloyds for HBOS, but was it not clear on 1 October, when were told by the Bank of England of the nature and HBOS became the first bank to require major liquidity extent of the operations, so they knew them at the time. help—indeed, half the major package was for HBOS—that The facilities were repaid at the beginning of January, this was a can of worms, and that the situation was far as I said in my statement. I believe that the final vote worse than had initially been believed? That has been taken by the HBOS shareholders took place at the end made clear in his statement today. Would not the correct of January 2009. course of action at that time have been to take HBOS For the sake of completeness, the current Lloyds into full public ownership in the way that Bradford prospectus in relation to its raising money on the markets & Bingley was? Instead, the Lloyds shareholders continued at present discloses that it is receiving money, and the to be encouraged in their belief that this takeover amount that it is receiving through the credit guarantee should take place. scheme, so it is telling prospective investors what the position is. That is the position in relation to Lloyds. My final question is this: are there any other loans that we do not know about? Can the Chancellor give us The hon. Gentleman asked about the indemnity. Of a categorical assurance that no other financial institutions course, because of the size of what was going on in have outstanding records of loans that have taken place 2008, I had to indemnify the Bank of England. It has a in this emergency that he has not yet told the House of limited balance sheet, but I felt it was my clear duty. Commons about? Maybe not at the time, but looking back now, people will think we had to take this action, otherwise we would have been faced with a much more difficult Mr. Darling: I am sure that, when the hon. Gentleman situation. has time to reflect on what he has said, he will agree that In relation to the final point that the hon. Gentleman his last question was really ridiculous. No Chancellor of raised, both of us will be at the Dispatch Box tomorrow the Exchequer or Governor of the Bank of England is afternoon, and I intend to return to the wider economy going to provide a running commentary on what they at that stage. may or may not be doing, for perfectly obvious reasons that I would have thought even the hon. Gentleman would recognise. In fact, he did recognise them when Dr. Vincent Cable (Twickenham) (LD): We all accept Northern Rock was at the height of its difficulties. I just that the intervention had to happen and that it was think that his question was plain daft, really. right in principle to have confidentiality.That confidentiality has to be balanced against accountability to Parliament I can tell the House that, to a large extent, because of for the expenditure of very large sums of money. The the action that we and the Bank of England have taken, question is why it was only yesterday that it was judged the banking system is now far more stable than it was. sufficiently safe for the public and Parliament to be We have got through many of the difficulties that we given the information. Why, for example, were we not faced, and we are working our way through others. told about it on 7 March, when those banks entered Only by taking that decisive action were we able to do into the asset protection scheme, or in the Budget a few that. I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman has the weeks later? If there was still some major doubt about luxury of being a commentator, as opposed to someone the stability of the banks, why was that not revealed a who actually has to do these things, but speaking from month ago when the Chancellor made a statement on the other side of the fence, I can tell him that, because 539 Indemnity to Bank of England25 NOVEMBER 2009 Indemnity to Bank of England 540

[Mr. Darling] system as a whole. This was not about an individual bank, although subsequently—this is obviously how of the action we have taken, the banking system is now the system works—the Governor had to form a view far more stable, not just here but in other countries as about HBOS, as he did about RBS. However, my well. decision—his decision—was taken in relation to the The hon. Gentleman went back to the question of general principle, and that was why we took it. Lloyds. I will not read out what I have already said, but I should have said to the hon. Member for Twickenham the directors of Lloyds clearly have an obligation to (Dr. Cable) that, yes, RBS and HBOS did pay a fee in their shareholders, and they clearly had an obligation in respect of the facilities that they got. anticipation of their takeover of HBOS. It was for them—properly advised, as I said—to disclose what Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Chapter 5 they needed to in the prospectus. As the hon. Gentleman of the Treasury’s own document “Managing Public knows, there then followed a vote by the Lloyds shareholders Money” says that when indemnities are given by the and a vote by the HBOS shareholders. Both those votes Chancellor and full disclosure is not possible, he should were overwhelming. It is for the members of the Lloyds write in confidence to the Chairman of the Public board itself to decide what to disclose to their shareholders, Accounts Committee immediately to explain what has and there are all sorts of legal considerations that they happened. Will the Chancellor now explain to the House have to take into account. It is for them to be satisfied how this procedure was followed at the time? that that was the case. I really do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s argument Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman is quite right: there about splitting the banks. We discuss this at just about are long-standing provisions that require that, when the every statement and Question Time, and I refer him to Government take on a contingent liability, we write to what I have said on previous occasions. He should bear him in that way. He no doubt forgot to mention that I in mind that Northern Rock was a narrow bank—a have written to him on numerous occasions for very classic retail bank—and it got into deep trouble. At the obvious reasons, drawing his attention to contingent other end of the scale of exotic activities, there was liabilities. This particular issue of lender of last resort Lehman’s, which did not take a single deposit. It, too, facilities was actually carried out by the Bank of England, got into terrible trouble. The US authorities at the time however, and not by the Government. When Parliament did precisely what some people suggested and let it go decided—pretty much unanimously—that the Bank should down. We do not have to speculate about what happened: have discretion as to when to report, it clearly had in it brought the entire system down at the same time. I mind that there would be times when it would be disagree with the hon. Gentleman on that matter. dangerous to report exactly what it was doing, because to do so might destabilise the system. So there is a Several hon. Members rose— distinction between the emergency liquidity assistance Mr. Speaker: Order. Many right hon. and hon. Members provided by the Bank—which is provided for in the want to take part in these exchanges, and I would Banking Act 2009, although its origins date back to simply remind the House that we have a further statement long before that—and the normal procedures that we and the continuation of the debate on the Loyal Address have, which we have followed at every single turn. to follow. I therefore issue my usual appeal to all hon. Members that each of them should ask a single, short Jim Cousins (Newcastle upon Tyne, Central) (Lab): It supplementary question, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman is plain that the workers and shareholders of Lloyds on the Treasury Bench to provide us with an economical were mugged. Does the Chancellor agree that all those reply. who were knowingly party to the mugging should go, if they have not gone already? John McFall (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): At the time of Northern Rock, the Governor came before Mr. Darling: I am not sure that I accept the general the Treasury Committee and said that his inability to premise underlying my hon. Friend’s question. I have ensure lender of last resort facilities on a confidential said on a number of occasions—today and previously—that basis was a grievous omission. It is therefore important the responsibility to shareholders lies with the board of to remind ourselves that discretion has to be given to directors, who are there to represent them, and I have the Bank of England and to the Governor in relation to read out to the House what they said in the prospectus all these issues. There is a separation between the Bank that they published last November. and politics, but the Chancellor knows—as he said in his letter to me yesterday—that emergency liquidity assistance was advanced to HBOS and RBS in October. Mr. (Sevenoaks) (Con): Will the Was that decision a short-term notice, or part of a Chancellor confirm that neither the amount nor the long-term contingency plan? Was any consideration scale of these loans was reported properly on page 19 of given to the right of the Lloyds TSB shareholders to the HBOS prospectus or on page 33 of the Lloyds have that information disclosed to them? prospectus, or reported fully in the Bank of England’s report and accounts? If shareholders cannot trust a Mr. Darling: My right hon. Friend asks me about the prospectus, and if the public cannot trust the Bank of decision, and I think that, at the time, the Governor was England’s accounts, who can they trust? of the view that we had to provide emergency liquidity assistance. I therefore had to indemnify the Bank for Mr. Darling: The prospectuses issued by HBOS and that. Let us remember that the decision related to banks Lloyds are a matter for those banks, and the hon. in general; it was not about a specific institution. At Gentleman needs to direct his question to the directors that time, we were seriously concerned about the banking who were responsible at the time. 541 Indemnity to Bank of England25 NOVEMBER 2009 Indemnity to Bank of England 542

On the Bank of England, I assume that the hon. thought it faintly bizarre that one criticism of the whole Gentleman was at the Treasury Committee sitting yesterday, effort was that it had been kept confidential, and that where I think the Governor made the point that he was not even Robert Peston had managed to find out the of the view, when his report was published, that those information. Does my right hon. Friend share that operations should remain confidential, so he exercised thought? I congratulate those who maintained that his judgment to withhold the precise nature of what was confidentiality over the past 13 months. Perhaps we being done. However, by yesterday, he had judged that could have a little more of it. the time was right to reveal what had been done. I refer the hon. Gentleman to what I said earlier: it is always a Mr. Darling: I am grateful for what I take from my fine judgment on the question of when to make such right hon. Friend to be a general message of support. information available. Had the information been released prematurely and had it caused further problems in the Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) banking system, I am sure that he would have been the (LD): In the Chancellor’s answer and supplementary first to jump up and complain about it. answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable), he mentioned the fee that was paid, but he Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) (Lab): Does did not address the interest rate. Was it a commercial my right hon. Friend agree that, if the Governor had rate of return, or was there an element of public subsidy? not had the courage to take the action that he took, instead of sitting here nit-picking about the timing of Mr. Darling: The fees are meant to reflect the cost to the announcement, we could have been contemplating the public purse. At the time when such work is done, it the collapse of the banks and the devastating consequences has to be done very quickly, so the arrangements are for our constituencies? Will my right hon. Friend therefore not like a normal commercial loan. However, the most congratulate the Bank on having had the courage to put important thing is that the money was repaid, and it up the money, get it back with fees and charges and was fully covered. protect the national and public interest? Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Mr. Darling: The reason why all central banks throughout (Lab): I congratulate the Chancellor on an excellent the world have the power to provide emergency liquidity statement and on his firm grasp of complex issues. assistance is obvious: there will be times when a bank or However, what advice would he give to a constituent of several banks get into difficulties. However, the system mine—a small business person—who phoned me this will work only if central banks are able to carry out morning and said that he employs 30 people and has such operations, where appropriate, confidentially. Of done everything that Lloyds has asked him to do, yet course, once the crisis and the difficulties are over and there is a danger to his company because the cash-flow the system is stabilised, the central bank can disclose problem is simply not being dealt with? He congratulates what it has done, but, as countless debates in this House the Chancellor, as I do, but wonders why the Chancellor’s have reflected, the need for that facility is beyond question. policy of extending the commitment of the banks to small businesses appears in this case not to have been Mr. Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale, West) (Con): applied. In the post-mortem on Northern Rock, it became clear that the impediment to covert intervention was disclosure requirements not on the Bank of England, but on the Mr. Darling: As my right hon. Friend knows, part of company concerned. Would that still have been true if the arrangement with Lloyds and RBS is that we have such covert intervention had been contemplated in the lending agreements. I am not familiar with the individual instances under discussion? circumstances of the company to which he refers, but I strongly advise him to take the matter up, as I do, with the person who is responsible for, in this case, the bank’s Mr. Darling: No, I do not think that there was any Scottish operations to see whether it can be resolved. I difficulty in operating the support for RBS and Lloyds. have found that that can be fruitful, at times, although I There was, as the hon. Gentleman knows, a lot of should not want anyone to think there are not any debate about the precise strictures on Northern Rock, difficulties even for my constituents. and whether a particular European Union directive was a problem, and we are pursuing that. However, I have never taken the view that that was the major problem. Mr. Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Was the Northern Rock appeared then to be an isolated case, HBOS merger a good deal for Lloyds staff? although it was clear to many that it was not. The major problem at the time was that, despite the Bank’s provision Mr. Darling: I think that Lloyds staff would no doubt of lender of last resort facilities, far from reassuring have a view on that matter, but the key thing is that the people it had the opposite effect. However, I do not shareholders of those banks decided whether they wanted think that the European directive was ever the major to go ahead with the merger. The responsibility for sticking point, but we are pursuing the matter. passing information to shareholders and prospective investors lies fairly and squarely with the boards of Mrs. Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): I, like my hon. directors of both banks. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Ms Keeble), congratulate the Bank and, indeed, the Chancellor on Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Will the Chancellor the speedy action that they took 12 months ago. There confirm that at no point did he instruct or advise the is a danger, 12 or 13 months after the event, of trying to Governor not to disclose before yesterday? When did second-guess judgments that were extremely difficult at the Chancellor become aware of the Governor’s decision the time. This morning, as I listened to Radio 4, I to disclose? 543 Indemnity to Bank of England25 NOVEMBER 2009 Indemnity to Bank of England 544

Mr. Darling: The Governor and I have many discussions Mr. Darling: I suspect that we will have ample about a wide range of matters, as the House will know. opportunity to return to that tomorrow afternoon on However, it is quite clearly for the Governor to decide the last day of the debates on the Queen’s Speech. Let whether those operations are necessary—especially at me just make a general point. Yes, over the past 18 that time, the end of 2008 and the beginning of this months or so we have had to put a substantial amount year. Of course, we talked about those things regularly, of money into the banking system. However, I remind and it was for him to decide when he decided to make the hon. Gentleman, and the House, that the exceptional the disclosure. liquidity assistance was repaid. As for the other schemes, fees are charged for the credit guarantee scheme, and Anne Main (St. Albans) (Con): What, if any, bonuses the money has to be repaid under the special liquidity were paid to the banks during the period of the emergency scheme. Ultimately, of course, we will get the money loans? that we have put into RBS and Lloyds back when we come to sell those banks at whatever time is appropriate. Mr. Darling: I need to write to the hon. Lady. My recollection is that the bonuses for that financial year Dr. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Will the Chancellor would have been announced subsequent to that, but I of the Exchequer publish now or in future the rate of do not want to mislead her. Bonus payments are generally interest charged, and if not, why not? announced in spring, and that would have been after the payments were repaid. Mr. Darling: I am happy to discuss further with the On the hon. Lady’s general point, I must say that Governor of the Bank of England what further information there is not a bank in the world that does not owe a we can put before the House. The general point of great deal to taxpayers throughout the world, because, importance is that when these facilities are provided the if they had not stepped in, every single bank would have banks have to lodge collateral, they have to pay a fee, been affected—not just those that we had to support and we get the money back. directly. If we had not stepped in, the banks that we are discussing would have gone down, and the wider problem Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): The Chancellor for all of us is that the situation would not have stopped knows that over the past year I have repeatedly asked there: it would have brought down the rest of the him about the true level of indebtedness of the United banking system and large parts of the economy. No Kingdom. He also knows that the Office for National Government could possibly have contemplated that. Statistics itself has had some difficulty in obtaining the figures; I have raised that issue with him. Would he be Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): good enough to tell me whether the ONS was informed Covert lending is one thing; encouraging a bank to at the appropriate time about the matters that he has merge with a recipient is quite another. Surely a merger raised today? Has it been given the truth, in line with its without complete information, but with a gargantuan new independence under the Statistics and Registration loss of shareholder value, should simply not have been Service Act 2007, on which we wholly rely; and has it allowed in those circumstances. raised any matters of concern, as it is entitled to under the Act? Mr. Darling: As I said, the decision to go ahead with the merger was eventually taken by the shareholders of Mr. Darling: The ONS’s concern is about how the both Lloyds and HBOS. They had a vote, and the banks in which we have shareholdings should be accounted obligation, as the hon. Gentleman well knows because I for in the national statistics. The hon. Gentleman is well can see it from his smirk, lies fairly and squarely with aware of the conclusion that it has reached. The the directors to tell the shareholders what they know. responsibility for loans of this nature is properly a matter for the National Audit Office, as well. Between Mr. Stuart: They weren’t allowed to. all the public authorities, I hope that there will be sufficient examination and disclosure of what is going Mr. Speaker: Order. I say to the hon. Member for on. Now that the situation has stabilised, I think there is Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Stuart) that I have been no difficulty in explaining to people exactly what happened. good to him: I have got him in—he has asked his Indeed, there is everything to be said for doing so, question. He must listen to the reply. especially for those people who thought at the time that we were doing things that were precipitate or that we Mr. Darling: I am not so sure that the hon. Gentleman perhaps did not need to do. I am afraid that just over is interested in the reply, but as I said earlier the Lloyds 12 months ago we were faced with a quite extraordinary directors were fully aware of the circumstances in relation set of conditions that required very dramatic and to HBOS. They were told by the Bank of England. unprecedented action.

Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): I will Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I think that the be good, Mr. Speaker. The Government have thrown whole House recognises the importance of the Bank of billions at the banks while the banks have hardened England’s acting as lender of last resort to ensure the their attitude enormously to small business, to the point liquidity of the banking system. However, does the where they refuse to extend overdrafts and force expensive Chancellor accept that that then places an obligation on loans on small businesses, which do not want them but these banks not to cause liquidity problems for their have no option but to take them. Will the Chancellor customers by the unilateral withdrawal of overdraft and look into that business and come back to the House to loan facilities or unexpected changes in those conditions? tell us that he has changed what is an unsatisfactory What price has he sought to extract from the banks for process for small businesses? this continued level of public support? 545 Indemnity to Bank of England25 NOVEMBER 2009 Indemnity to Bank of England 546

Mr. Darling: I updated the House in my statement at and the country, can be allowed to guarantee to banks—that the beginning of November. In view of what Mr. Speaker is, how much the country can afford in current said, I am not going to repeat that, but I urge the hon. circumstances? Gentleman to look at it. In it, I set out what the arrangements were and what the banks were paying. I Mr. Darling: I am quite clear not only that what we agree with him, and with other hon. Members who have did last year was right but that we could afford to do it. raised this, that there is still a particular problem in I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman must ask himself relation to small businesses getting funding; that is another question. We saw what happened in America something that we are pursuing. when the then American Government let Lehman Brothers On the particular cases, I strongly advise him, as I go down—it resulted in the American banking system, advised my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, and very soon the rest of the banking system, going [Interruption.] Chryston and Bellshill (Mr. Clarke), that it is well worth down too. If the hon. Member for Tatton taking the matter up with the bank concerned; sometimes (Mr. Osborne) wants to discuss my phone call, I will matters can be resolved, sometimes not. There is a happily discuss it with him, but I am very glad that I did general problem in this regard. In the case of HBOS not take on the responsibility for an American bank; customers, for example, there is no doubt that that otherwise, I suspect that he would have a lot to say bank’s pricing policy caused it massive problems in about it. terms of not reflecting the true cost of making the Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): In the loans. Obviously, I do not know what business or bank Chancellor’s statement, he says that £100 billion was the hon. Gentleman is referring to, but I strongly advise taken in collateral by the Bank in support of these him to pursue the matter with the bank concerned if he massive loans. Will he publish the document supporting has not already done so. that collateral and put a copy in the Library? Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): The Mr. Darling: I would need to discuss with the Governor Chancellor chastised the hon. Member for Twickenham whether that was appropriate. (Dr. Cable) for asking questions about what other secret arrangements there might be, and suggested that he John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): We accept that should be more than a commentator—he may well be in the short term confidentiality is a good thing that so in the next Parliament. Does he think that in the gives confidence, but in the longer term openness gives context of the real drama that occurred 13 months ago, confidence as well. In future, will the Chancellor encourage it would have been better if Lloyds Banking Group had the Bank of England to report as soon as loans have used the asset protection plan instead of going to equity been repaid? holders, whose confidence would have been shaken by Mr. Darling: I refer the hon. Gentleman to what I the fact that they were not properly advised of the said earlier. The judgment for the Governor has to be bank’s circumstances? when to disclose, and he has to take into account all the appropriate circumstances, not only in relation to when Mr. Darling: The asset protection scheme was not the loan is to be repaid. The hon. Gentleman will recall announced until the middle of January, which is of that at the time when these loans were being repaid—either course after the events that we are talking about. The side of Christmas and the new year last year—there was exceptional liquidity assistance had to be provided for a great deal of turbulence in the system as a whole, at the time. It started as we were working up the which is why the Governor understandably decided that capitalisation scheme and then putting it in place, so it he thought he should let matters stabilise. The hon. predated the asset protection scheme. Had the asset Gentleman will no doubt want to reflect on this: the key protection scheme been in place and operating, the thing is that we had the resources of the Bank of situation might have been different, but I do not think England, and therefore the UK Government, to intervene that anyone would be in a position to say that. to deal with two Scottish banks that had got themselves into terrible difficulties. That has certainly given most Mr. Rob Wilson (Reading, East) (Con): Does the people in Scotland pause for thought—it is time that Chancellor have a view about how much the taxpayer, the nationalists thought about it as well. 547 25 NOVEMBER 2009 Scotland’s Future in the UK 548

Scotland’s Future in the UK by 42 per cent. in the decade after 1997. The Barnett formula meant that Scotland got the same per-head increase over that period. The commission recognised 1.18 pm the benefits of that funding mechanism and how it had The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): given the Scottish Parliament a good start, but 10 years With permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a on, it recommended a new deal on funding, retaining statement on Government plans about devolution in the stability and fairness of the block grant while improving Scotland: for a stronger Scotland in a stronger United accountability. Kingdom. Since the first day of devolution, the Scottish Government Devolution has proved itself to be the right form of have been accountable for how they spend taxpayers’ governance for Scotland. Scots know that as part of the money. Under today’s proposals, they will also be held United Kingdom we have the best of both worlds. First, to account for how they raise it. We will give the Scots are proud of the Scottish Parliament and the way Scottish Parliament greater freedom, but also the that it allows them to find what the late responsibility, to set the level of income tax in Scotland. called “Scottish solutions to Scottish problems”. Secondly, In future, the size of Scotland’s budget will be down to the economic events of the past year demonstrate again decisions made in Scotland. In addition to new tax the added strength of being part of the UK, the fifth powers, we will give the Scottish Parliament new powers largest economy in the world. While Britain brings and responsibilities on capital borrowing. We will also strength to Scotland, Scotland brings breadth to Britain. devolve stamp duty land tax, aggregates levy and landfill The White Paper that we are publishing today takes tax, and we will keep the commission’s recommendation forward the recommendations from the final report of about air passenger duty under review. the Commission on Scottish Devolution; again, I would While we rightly celebrate today the strength that the like to put on record our thanks to Sir Ken Calman and Union of the United Kingdom provides, that unity his commissioners. On 15 June this year, I welcomed the does not mean uniformity. So in addition to a new deal commission’s report on behalf of the Government. I on funding, we agree in principle to devolve new powers pledged to take the recommendations forward, with to the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament. consensus and . That is why we established a On the power to regulate air weapons, the Government cross-party steering group. I thank representatives of have kept controls under close scrutiny and there are the Labour party, the Liberal Democrats and the encouraging signs that recent changes are having an Conservative party in the House of Commons and in effect. However, the Government agree in principle to the Scottish Parliament for working together on that devolve the regulation of air weapons to the Scottish group. Parliament. The commission concluded that devolution has been We will also devolve the power to set the drink-drive a “remarkable and substantial success”. It brings limit. We believe that there are benefits to having a government closer to the people of Scotland and secures single drink-drive limit in place across Great Britain, Scotland’s position within the United Kingdom. In but there are no overwhelming reasons why the limit order to refresh the settlement, the commission made should not be devolved. Additionally, the Government recommendations in three distinct areas. First, it will ensure that Scottish Ministers have the power that recommended that closer working was needed between they need to determine the national speed limit in the UK Parliament and the Scottish Parliament and Scotland, along with their existing broad powers to between the UK Government and the Scottish Government. determine speed limits. Secondly, it recommended that a new, more accountable means of financing devolved spending in Scotland was Elsewhere we will take the opportunity, as the commission needed, to strengthen the financial accountability of recommended, to reserve powers to the UK Parliament the Scottish Parliament. Thirdly, it recommended that where experience has shown that a common approach while the division of responsibilities between the UK across Britain or the UK works better. For example, we Parliament and the Scottish Parliament works well, will reserve the regulation of all health care professions some changes could be made in both directions to to ensure a consistent regulatory regime across the further strengthen the devolution settlement. The country. Government agree with the commission’s conclusions, The full package of proposals is set out in the White which were based on a wealth of evidence. Paper that we are publishing today. We will continue to I turn to the first of those recommendations. Scotland take our plans forward with consensus and momentum, has two Parliaments—this Parliament, which remains and we will introduce a Scotland Bill as soon as possible an important symbol of the UK and continues to have in the next Parliament to introduce the Calman package. vital daily relevance to Scotland, and the Scottish Parliament We will phase in the new financial arrangements carefully, at Holyrood, which has firmly established itself over the and we plan to have the changes in place during the next past decade in Scottish hearts and minds. The commission term of the Scottish Parliament. recommended that the two Parliaments should examine Support for Scottish devolution remains strong in how they work together in the interests of Scotland and Scotland and elsewhere in the UK, and so does support the UK. Many of the recommendations are first a for the Union of the United Kingdom. The plans that matter for you, Mr. Speaker, and for the Presiding the Government are setting out today will create a Officer in the Scottish Parliament, and I have had the stronger, more accountable Scottish Parliament within opportunity to meet you both separately. the framework of the United Kingdom. That strength The core of the commission’s recommendations is through unity is a great asset, and today is an important about funding for Scotland. Under this Government, step in building a stronger Scotland and a new deal for public spending across the UK increased in real terms devolution. I commend this statement to the House. 549 Scotland’s Future in the UK25 NOVEMBER 2009 Scotland’s Future in the UK 550

David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and David Mundell: Is it not the case that the First Minister Tweeddale) (Con): I thank the Secretary of State for his of Scotland’s publicly funded, self-indulgent chit-chat statement, for the advance notice of it and for the extent will not survive? It is the work of the commission that to which both he and his predecessor have engaged with will endure and form the basis for taking forward the fellow Unionist politicians in Scotland during the Calman devolved settlement in Scotland for the benefit of the process. I also put on record my thanks to the people of Scotland and Britain. commissioners for their work. The Conservatives fully supported the setting up of the commission and have Mr. Murphy: I agree with one of—[Interruption.] I played a full part in its work. apologise to you, Mr. Speaker, for the hullabaloo and I look forward to reading the White Paper, but does noise in the Chamber, but you will be aware that when the Secretary of State concede that the timing of it so these debates take place and Scottish MPs get together near an election inevitably means that the issue will have and argue so passionately on Scottish issues, it is a bit to be revisited by the next Government? Does he like watching a family argue. acknowledge that his Government’s White Paper should I agree with one of the main points that the hon. not bind any incoming Conservative Government? Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale Conservatives accept that the Scottish Parliament needs (David Mundell) made, which is that the recent polling to be more financially accountable, that the devolution evidence is pretty clear—most Scots are fiercely patriotic settlement needs to be tidied up and that Westminster and love Scotland, and like ourselves believe in Scotland and Holyrood need to start working constructively and have a great sense of our history and our future, but together for the good of Scotland and Britain, but we they have dual identity and also have a belief in being will ensure those things through our own White Paper, part of something bigger. That unites most Scots and not this Government’s proposals launched in the dying people across the rest of the UK. I got in trouble for days of this Parliament. Will the Secretary of State saying this some time ago, but I happen to believe that welcome that commitment and undertake to continue the Scottish Government made quite a good start after in the spirit of Calman, on the basis of consensus and they were elected with the energy and excitement that momentum, regardless of who is in government, and took them over the finishing line. However, like most resist the temptation to play party politics with such an people in Scotland, I am starting to believe that they are important issue as Scotland’s constitution? a novelty that is wearing off. Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that the On the points that the hon. Gentleman made— guiding principle in deliberations on the Calman process [Interruption.] has been, and must continue to be, securing Scotland’s position within the United Kingdom? Is he as heartened Mr. Speaker: Order. I recognise that the exchanges at as I am by recent polling in Scotland that demonstrates this stage are relatively good natured, and that there are that there is very little support for separatism and an many smiles on faces and so on, but I say to the hon. independence referendum? Does he accept Sir Kenneth Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) Calman’s view that the establishment of better working that I think he is setting a bad example. If he were in a relationships between the British Government and the school class, he would be in some danger of detention. I Scottish Government and between the Parliaments here do not want to see that. and at Holyrood must be in place to underpin every other recommendation in his report? Given that most of Mr. Murphy: The five SNP Members—the other one the measures to improve relationships do not require is up the road—continue to shout across the Chamber, any legislation, can he tell us what he will do to re-establish but most people in Scotland have stopped listening to the good will between Westminster and Holyrood, which them, regardless how loud they shout. The by-election appears to have ebbed away? result in Glasgow showed that absolutely conclusively. Whatever differences we may have with the Labour However, on the substance of the points raised by the Government about how to take forward the Calman hon. Gentleman, most Scots want to see this Parliament recommendations, may I invite the Secretary of State to and the Scottish Parliament working much better together agree with me that they are as nothing compared with and the UK Government working much more closely the divide between us and the Scottish National party? with the Scottish Government. I suspect that at local We are Unionists; they are separatists. We are in the level, they would like to see Members of Parliament, mainstream of the constitutional debate; they are on Members of the Scottish Parliament and local councillors, the extreme. of all parties, particularly at a time of recession, working together and trying to set aside, where they can, partisan However, does the Secretary of State also agree that divides. That is why it is pretty disappointing that, when there are no grounds for complacency? The Calman there is a raft of proposals about better working commission contrasts markedly with the so-called “national relationships—we are interested in taking them all forward conversation”, whose main participants appear to be and working through them—the Scottish Government insomniac cyber-nats. Is it not the case that the work of have just flatly refused to accept two thirds of them. the commission, not Mr. Salmond’s publicly funded, self-indulgent chit-chat, will endure and form the basis That is probably because they are not really interested for taking— in embedding the working relationships between the UK and Scottish Parliaments in the medium term, Mr. Speaker: Order. I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman because they want to rip Scotland out of the UK. As is in the midst of his rhetorical flow, but I appeal to him the hon. Gentleman alluded to, it is important to have a to remember that when he is referring to a right hon. greater sense of teamwork, which we have had through Member of the House, he must do so with respect to the this process, with Labour, Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, constituency rather than by identifying a Member by and business and leaders, involved in the name. Calman process and the steering group. 551 Scotland’s Future in the UK25 NOVEMBER 2009 Scotland’s Future in the UK 552

[Mr. Jim Murphy] The hon. Gentleman and the House will be interested to know that Sir Ken Calman made 63 recommendations. Finally, much of the hon. Gentleman’s speech was— Twenty-one were for the Parliaments, but 42 were for [Interruption.] Much of it was humorous rather than Her Majesty’s Government, and we are committed to informative. We look forward to hearing the detail of taking forward 39 of them. We have been very clear his response to the White Paper once he has had the about this: it is our intention to introduce a Bill, as soon chance to read it in greater detail. as possible in the next Parliament, to put those measures in place during the next Scottish Parliament. I think Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): that that will be welcomed across Scotland. I, too, thank the Secretary of State for his statement and for advance sight of it prior to coming to the Finally, on the hon. Gentleman’s point about the Chamber. I also place on record my party’s gratitude to time scale, Sir Ken Calman himself said that Sir Kenneth Calman and the members of his commission “it is…a package of 63 recommendations which hang together.” for their very substantive and substantial piece of work. It is our intention to deal with them as a package in a I should also place on record some recognition of the Scotland Bill early in the new Parliament. contribution of the Secretary of State’s predecessor, the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Des Several hon. Members rose— Browne), who was instrumental in introducing this process. On the substance of the White Paper and the Secretary Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. Many of State’s statement, I am completely in support of the Members are hoping to catch my eye, and they will be Government’s position, which is of practical as well as aware that the debate on the Queen’s Speech will continue constitutional significance. For those in Scotland who after the statement. I therefore ask for a single, brief want a new Forth bridge, for example, and who see it as question and a similar response. vital to Scotland’s economic future, there is now no Mrs. Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): Does my right barrier to its delivery. If the Government in Edinburgh hon. Friend the Secretary of State agree that both the want to delay it further, they will have to blame themselves constitutional convention that established the Scottish rather than looking south of the border. Parliament—at least, it built the momentum for its However, I must ask the Secretary of State what his establishment—and the Calman commission brought White Paper really adds to the process apart from consensus within Scottish politics. The results of the further delaying implementation when there is consensus, convention and the commission are due to the dedication, and giving the Conservatives an opportunity for the commitment and hard work of the people who participated. sort of backsliding that we have just seen. I listened to The one constant that was absent from both processes the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and was the Scottish National party which, when it comes Tweeddale (David Mundell) speaking about producing to the crunch, is more interested in what is important another White Paper the other side of a general election, for the SNP than in standing up for Scotland. and I could almost hear the ghost of Sir Alec Douglas- Home speaking prior to the 1979 referendum. He promised Mr. Murphy: My right hon. Friend is absolutely that we would get something better from the Conservatives, right. The constitutional convention that brought about but they betrayed us after the 1979 election, and they the Scotland Act 1998 was boycotted by the SNP, and would betray us again tomorrow given half a chance the Calman commission, which has brought about this which, fortunately, they are unlikely to get. White Paper, has been boycotted by the SNP. As she May I also remind the Secretary of State that Calman said, the fact is that the SNP is so obsessed with was established because we wanted to make the UK breaking up Britain by ripping Scotland out of the work better? In order to do that, we must now move heart of the UK that it refuses to find common cause forward with the work that Calman acknowledged needed with anyone else across the whole of Scotland. That to be done, and we must find a needs-based formula to obsession is increasingly a minority sport in Scotland. replace the Barnett formula. When will the Secretary of State and the Government understand that serious threats Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): I entirely to the future of the Union, which exist, can come from agree with what the Secretary of State just said. I the south as well as the north of the border? warmly welcome the Unionist consensus that has brought about this excellent report from Sir Kenneth Calman Mr. Murphy: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind and the greater accountability that will flow from it. remarks about the process and his gracious comments However, does the Secretary of State agree that there is about my right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock a danger that a consensus of the left—the Labour party, and Loudoun (Des Browne). The whole House the SNP and the Liberals—would be likely to bring acknowledges the phenomenal amount of energy that about an increase in taxes under the plans for greater he put into the process. I also thank the Scottish Parliament accountability, whereas what Scotland really needs for which, of course, initiated the whole process, despite the economic growth and an increase in jobs and prosperity, Scottish Government not participating. is a Government who, when fiscal ability allows, will cut I am not going to referee the disagreement between taxes? The only Governments who ever promise to do the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives. I am that are Conservative Governments. determined simply to try to find a common purpose, maintain consensus and drive forward with momentum. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I asked for brief The hon. Gentleman is right to say that there is now a questions, and I must insist on brief questions. new capital borrowing power from the national loans fund. That has been demanded in Scotland and it is Mr. Murphy: The hon. Lady is right in some respects, right that after the Calman commission recommended but she is wrong to describe the SNP as a party of the it, the Government are now committed to it. left. It is a party of all things to all people, depending on 553 Scotland’s Future in the UK25 NOVEMBER 2009 Scotland’s Future in the UK 554 which part of Scotland it is seeking votes from. The The problem for the hon. Gentleman and the SNP is quasi-revolutionary party seen in parts of Glasgow is that he always behaves like a nationalist and never different from the small-c conservatives seen in Perthshire. behaves like a patriot. A nationalist puts the SNP first, Nevertheless, she is right about one thing: the Scottish but a patriot puts Scotland first. That is the difference Parliament is currently responsible only for spending between my party and his, and why Scotland is increasingly money and there is an accountability gap. We want to turning its back on the SNP. right that and complete Donald Dewar’s unfinished business by having a greater degree of accountability in Rosemary McKenna (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Scotland for money that is raised in Scotland. Kirkintilloch, East) (Lab): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his approach to the Calman commission. It is David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): Does my right hon. exactly what was envisaged by those people involved in Friend agree that devolution ought not to be about the constitutional convention. Does he share my view simply moving powers from one institution to another, that this is a coherent package of measures that includes but about empowering the people of Scotland in their evidence supporting the assignment to the UK Parliament local communities? We should be much bolder than we of those measures that should be so assigned, and that are about removing powers from this place and from it should be delivered as such? the Scottish Parliament to ensure that local communities, councils and health authorities are empowered to meet Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend is right. Unlike the half the needs of the people of Scotland. Now is the time to dozen or fewer SNP Members, she is not interested in do that, given that the wheels are now well and truly off playing these nationalist games of pick and mix. We are the nationalist bandwagon. doing what is right for Scotland, and strengthening it inside the UK. When Sir Ken Calman proposed changes Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend is right. We are doing in the reservation of powers on insolvency, charities what will work best for Scotland and the UK, which is and health care professionals, we were attracted to the why we would have powers in the House of Commons idea of a UK-wide position in those areas, and we have on health care professionals and we also want unified said so in the White Paper. We were less attracted to the arrangements on charity law and insolvency. My hon. food labelling proposals, for good reason. Friend has played a pivotal role in bringing about this Most Scots know that they get the best of both process, and it is right that we should extend devolution worlds through having a Scottish Parliament and a UK beyond the Scottish Parliament into local communities Parliament. They get a strong, patriotic and important to people and their families. That is why the future jobs Scotland inside the fifth largest economy in the world, fund is so important: it is about local communities, the and they will continue to celebrate that. We are stronger voluntary sector and local authorities working together together, and we would be much weaker apart, as the in a team approach to get families through this global economic circumstances of the past year have proven recession. conclusively. Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): I thank the Secretary Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The biggest threat to of State for the advance copy of his statement. I note the UK does not come from Scotland, but from England. how pleased Labour and Conservative MPs have been If the Secretary of State does not do something to stop to agree with what he has said so far. Scottish MPs voting on legislation that applies only to I am pleased that there is a growing consensus that England whereas English MPs have no decision-making normal nations should make decisions for themselves influence on Scotland, or something to make the funding while working closely with their neighbours and friends. formula fairer to England, the threat to the UK will The best future for Scotland is guaranteed with the full come from England. powers of independence, and the people should be able to decide that in a referendum. We should bring that Mr. Murphy: Knowing the hon. Gentleman as I do, referendum on. when he talked about the threat to the Union, I expected There is cross-party consensus that we should devolve him to say that it came from the European Union. decision making on air weapons, the drink-drive limit People across the UK know about our shared heritage. and the speed limit. Given the agreement of the Scottish We share these islands and we have so much in common. Government since June to implement these measures We are fiercely defensive and supportive of each other. immediately through statutory instrument, why are they We have together achieved so much over the decades being put off by Whitehall until after the election? What and I believe that our strongest and best days lie ahead explanation will the Secretary of State give to the of us. We need to ensure that the Scottish Parliament mother, father and family of a victim who could have has additional powers, but I hope that his constituents been saved from harm, but was not because the UK will be reassured by the fact that this is not about Government did not act for a year? additional money for the Scottish Government. It is about additional accountability and the holding to account Mr. Murphy: I am not sure that that contribution was by the people of Scotland of the Scottish Government worth waiting for. The issue of air guns, for example, not only for what they spend, but for how the money is will require more than a press release. It is much more raised. That is an important constitutional innovation. difficult to write and pass a law than it is to write a flimsy, superficial press release for media consumption. Mr. Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): On a We have moved considerably on air guns and the UK practical point in connection with the drink-driving Government have changed their view, but making that limits, is it not imperative that if a variant were introduced, happen will require primary legislation in the House of both Administrations—in Edinburgh and here—should Commons, which is much more complicated that issuing work together to prevent motorists from becoming a simple nationalist press release. confused? 555 Scotland’s Future in the UK25 NOVEMBER 2009 Scotland’s Future in the UK 556

Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend is characteristically that it was still governed in a relatively centralised way correct. There is an attraction in having similar or the by what is supposed to be the Government of the same drink-drive limits across Great Britain, but based United Kingdom? on the evidence provided to Calman, we have decided that there is a case for devolving that power to the Mr. Murphy: The right hon. Gentleman speaks with Scottish Parliament. It would have to think very carefully authority, through his Committee work. As he knows, about introducing a different limit for Scotland and the of course, we have devolved powers across the United possible consequences, but it will be for it to decide Kingdom—to Northern Ireland, London, Scotland and ultimately. We joust across party divides on such matters Wales. That has not always been to our political advantage, and the SNP may be many things, but it is not foolish. It as Scotland—and currently London—shows, but it was knows that if it were to introduce a different drink-drive the right thing to do. Our unwritten constitution has limit, it would have to have some degree of co-operation, never been a precise settlement, and today is an important education and information for drivers and police forces, step towards ensuring greater accountability. When we especially in those areas just north and south of the have closed the gap in the Scottish settlement and border. completed Donald Dewar’s unfinished business, the Scottish Government and Parliament will have to take Willie Rennie (Dunfermline and West Fife) (LD): annual tax decisions. Instead of blaming London or Despite all the noise in the Chamber, there is a cross-party Britain—bizarrely, in the light of events over the past consensus and even the SNP Members are behind these year—people in the Scottish Parliament will have to proposals. The Bill would get a smooth passage through look in the mirror when it comes to Scotland’s future this House and the other place. I cannot understand and the size of its budget. why, when the practical benefits would include the funding of the Forth crossing, we cannot just get on John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): I thank with it. We would be right behind the Secretary of State. my right hon. Friend, his predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Des Mr. Murphy: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Browne) and my constituent Sir Kenneth Calman for interest in this and his commitment to the package that their work, and I am sure that my predecessor, Donald we unveiled today. As Sir Ken Calman has said, this is a Dewar, would have been most pleased with what they package of 63 recommendations which hang together. have come up with. However, will they reconsider some We intend to take forward 39 of the 42 that apply to the of the reserved issues, such as energy, on which Scotland Government. On the question of the Forth road bridge, will miss out on billions of pounds of investment in there is a deal on the table. The Scottish Government areas such as Hunterston and Torness, where no one is have unprecedented flexibility, not matched in any other allowed to build nuclear power stations because of Department in Whitehall or other part of the UK some stupid, idiotic rule brought in by the Scottish Government, and £1 billion that would help to make Government? the Forth road bridge a reality. Unfortunately, for reasons of ideology, they are turning their back on that Mr. Murphy: I am happy to pay tribute to my hon. unprecedented deal. They have the constitutional right Friend’s constituent, who has done a remarkable job to be wrong, but it is not too late for them to change over the past few months, and I am honoured to pay their minds. tribute to the late Donald Dewar who did so much to bring about the institution of the Scottish Parliament. Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): He served with enormous distinction as the first First Does the Secretary of State agree that, for the sake of Minister of the Scottish Parliament. Scotland, it is a pity that the SNP did not support the The SNP is wrong on nuclear power stations, but Calman commission, and that we should now have an again—I return to this point—the constitutional end to the constitutional wrangling when the proposals arrangements enable it to be wrong. My hon. Friend’s are put into effect? frustration about its nuclear policy is a stronger argument for changing the Government in the Scottish Parliament Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend is on the money again than for changing the devolution settlement, and I am when it comes to such issues. The SNP has set its confident that most people in Scotland agree with that. nationalist face against sensible, radical reforms entrenching Scotland within the United Kingdom. She is also right Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): that, as important as the measures that we announced Recently, a Government Minister, Lord Bach, praised today are, our biggest priority is to get Scotland through the Isle of Man as being beneficial to the UK’s economy. the recession and to work with people who are out of The Isle of Man has about the population of Paisley, work to get them back into work as soon as possible. In but has far more independence and autonomy. Why can publishing the White Paper, seeking a consensus and Scotland not have the powers and autonomy of the Isle driving momentum, I want to return soon to getting of Man? Scotland back to work in this recession—because that is the public’s obsession in Scotland, even if it is not the Mr. Murphy: I mean no disservice to the places that I SNP’s. am about to mention. Previously, the hon. Gentleman has taken us on a virtual tour of the world, although he Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Is the did not mention the Western Isles. We have heard that Secretary of State aware that the Constitutional Affairs Scotland would be wonderful if only it could be like Committee’s report on devolution 10 years on is in line Iceland, which tragically—I do not celebrate this—is in with the Calman recommendations, but warned that the search of an economic purpose. His party has compared stability of the Union was threatened by the fact that Scotland to Ireland, which technically is in depression—as the governance of England had not been addressed and a Murphy, I take no comfort in saying that Ireland is in 557 Scotland’s Future in the UK25 NOVEMBER 2009 Scotland’s Future in the UK 558 real difficulties. Now the SNP is saying that it is a Northern Ireland, Wales and England are stronger for nationalist cause to be like the Isle of Man. No disrespect sticking together. Look at what has happened over the to the Isle of Man, but Scotland’s future does not lie in past year. We can dispute whether we got each policy being like the Isle of Man. This is another example of right, but it is certainly the conviction of the majority of the SNP putting its obsession before our country. Most people in all parts of the United Kingdom that over the Scots will want their country to be not like Iceland, past year we, on these islands, have been better for Ireland—despite our respect—or the Isle of Man, but sticking together and getting through the recession. like Scotland: a proud, equal part of the United Kingdom, With one exception, regardless of party politics, most which is the most successful union of nations that this of us know that we will get through the recession, partly world has ever known. because of the strength that the United Kingdom gives us.

Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, South-West) (Lab/Co-op): Improved intergovernmental and inter-parliamentary Does the Secretary of State agree that the announcement relationships are necessary for good governance of my of the Government’s commitment to the policy on constituents. However, does the lack of co-operation by devolution means that the next general election in Scotland the SNP with the Calman commission put that in will effectively be a referendum between, on the one jeopardy; or does it simply place the SNP in jeopardy? hand, separation, isolation, job losses and misery and, on the other hand, strengthened devolution, continued Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend is right that one of the shipyard orders, happiness and joy? dangers here is that the Scottish Government— [Interruption.]. Mr. Murphy: Believe it or not, but that is the hardest question that I have had to respond to all day. We have a Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Please may we have big choice to make over the future constitutional some quiet in the Chamber while the Secretary of State arrangements in Scotland. The majority of Scots are on is replying? one side—of strengthening the Parliament—and the SNP is on the other side. It is entitled to be there, but Mr. Murphy: I hope that I can reassure you, Madam ultimately the next election will be a two-horse race in Deputy Speaker, that hon. Members were shouting not Scotland—it is the same two-horse race in the rest of at me—I hope—but at the five across the way. Great Britain—between the Labour and Conservative My hon. Friend is right to say that some of the parties. Increasingly, the SNP is a sideshow in the measures are jeopardised by virtue of the minority two-horse race, and most people in Scotland know that. Scottish Government continuing to be dogmatic and boycotting the process. They went AWOL on the Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): I know constitutional convention and were AWOL on the Calman that the Secretary of State was trying to be whimsical commission and the White Paper. However, the majority when he said that this was mainly a matter for robust view in Scotland will force them to change their mind, debate among Scottish Members, but does he agree that because the belligerent obsession with breaking Scotland the matter is also important to English Members? Would out of the United Kingdom and holding the immediate it not be appropriate for the Government to invest time referendum is supported by about one person in eight—even in producing a contingency plan for independence, if fewer than the SNP got in the by-election in Glasgow, only so that the Secretary of State has the opportunity North-East. to show how strongly he feels that Scottish independence would be disruptive? Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I think that there is a consensus in the House that devolution is Mr. Murphy: It is important to maintain that careful important and good for the people of Scotland and the consensus across the United Kingdom about funding other regions of the United Kingdom that have it. We, and powers. I welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman in Northern Ireland, would love to have the luxury of is in his place today, because I know that he takes an the Scottish people of being able to elect our own interest in those issues. I do not want to second-guess Government without enforced power-sharing. However, his constituents, but I would guess that they too have a is it not important that no action be taken to break up sense that there is something special about the shared the unity of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and heritage of these islands and something remarkable Northern Ireland? about all that we have achieved together. Regardless of the to-ing and fro-ing over specific disagreements that Mr. Murphy: I will not second-guess the devolution we might have across party divides, being part of the settlement in Northern Ireland. I have enough complications United Kingdom is great for Croydon—I know that being Secretary of State for Scotland, so I will not there is no attempt to remove Croydon from the United intrude on the challenges facing, and fascination of Kingdom—and great too for the four nations of the being, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. United Kingdom. However, I am happy to talk to the However, the hon. Gentleman’s central point is correct: hon. Gentleman some more about the issue, if he thinks by all tests of logic and economic rationale, Scotland, that would be helpful. 559 25 NOVEMBER 2009 560

Point of Order Debate on the Address

2pm [5TH DAY] Mr. (Forest of Dean) (Con): On a Debate resumed (Order, 18 November). point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have given Question again proposed, Mr. Speaker and the Leader of the House notice of my point of order. I wonder whether I might inquire into That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as whether there is anything that you can do to ensure that follows: we get proper debate on the Equality Bill. You will Most Gracious Sovereign, know that it is a Bill of 205 clauses and 28 schedules, We, YourMajesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons with 34 new clauses, two new schedules and 52 amendments of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, tabled already, and we have not yet seen any Government in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has amendments or new clauses. The Leader of the House addressed to both Houses of Parliament. has given two clear assurances at the Dispatch Box that she would not only discuss the timetabling of the Bill with Opposition Front Benchers, but ensure that the and Work and Pensions handling of the Bill on Report would be such that the Bill would be an exemplar. So far she has not engaged Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): I inform the with Opposition Front Benchers about timetabling, and House that Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment in if we have only one day on Report, the only example the name of the Leader of the Opposition. that the Bill will set will be a poor one. What can you Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): On a point of do, Madam Deputy Speaker, to ensure that we get order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Following that proper debate on that matter? announcement about which amendment the Chair has selected, might one relay back to Mr. Speaker the fact Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): I thank the that there is growing pressure in the House for a debate hon. Gentleman for giving Mr. Speaker notice of his on a motion that is amendable on Afghanistan? Although point of order. However, he will not be surprised to it might not have been appropriate today, I hope that he hear that it is not a point of order for the Chair. None will find ways of allowing the views of the House to be the less, his comments are on the record and they will registered on that issue. have been heard by those on the Treasury Bench. Tomorrow is business questions, when I have no doubt that he will Madam Deputy Speaker: I will ensure that Mr. Speaker have an opportunity to put his question to the Leader is aware of the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. of the House. 2.3 pm BILL PRESENTED Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): I beg to move an amendment, at the end of the Question to add: PERSONAL CARE AT HOME BILL “but humbly regret that the Gracious Speech fails to offer answers Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) to the growing social challenges facing the United Kingdom, and Secretary , supported by the Prime proposes no new ideas about ending the culture of deprivation and welfare dependency in many parts of the country or on Minister, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary dealing with the growing level of economic inactivity; note that it , Secretary , Secretary , offers no fresh solutions to the challenge of anti-social behaviour Secretary and Mr. Phil Hope, presented in communities around the country, nor does it reform the a Bill to amend section 15 of the Community Care licensing system to tackle alcohol-fuelled disorder; and further (Delayed Discharges etc.) Act 2003 so as to remove the regret that after 12 years in power the Government brings forward restriction on the period for which personal care may be no new approaches to the challenges the country faces.” provided free of charge to persons living at home; and Twelve years is a long time to be in government. It to make consequential provision. gives any Government as long as they should sensibly Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time need to demonstrate that they can make a difference. By tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 11) with explanatory next May, when they will be returning to the country for notes (Bill 11-EN). the fourth time to ask for a mandate, the Government will have been in power for 13 years, so the question for every voter is do they really deserve one? This afternoon I want to look at the things that the Government promised all those years ago—things that they have continued to promise, year after year, in virtually every Queen’s Speech, including this one—and to ask a simple question: have they delivered the things that they promised? Back in 1994, a new, young Labour leader set out his stall to the party conference, telling his delegates, in some of his most memorable phrases, what needed to be done: “We can all get angry because crime hurts,” he told us, “and it hurts most the people who are least able to fight back. But it is not enough to get angry, to stamp your feet, and shout from 561 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 562 the Tory conference platform. That is the soft option. We need a recorded crime figures do show an increase, but that is new approach. One that is tough on crime, and tough on the because the statistics changed in 2002 to include common causes of crime.” assault, which was previously in a different category. I In the intervening years, the Labour Government have am glad to have this debate, but can we have it on the had more than a fair chance to deal with the challenges facts? Can the hon. Gentleman also confirm that, according that he talked about. They have had the money, with to the British crime survey, violent crime is down by £350 billion spent on worklessness, at least £70 billion 41 per cent. and that the figures used by him and his spent on policing and other crime fighting and more right hon. Friend apply to a statistical change that took than £20 billion spent on early-years and child care place in 2002? services since 1997. They have also had the time, over these 12 long years, so now it seems entirely fair to look Chris Grayling: The Home Secretary needs to understand at what has happened in Britain and assess the degree to one simple point about the shortcomings of the British which our social challenges have begun to reduce. crime survey. In its categorisation of violent crime the Let us use that speech back in 1994 by the man who British crime survey does not include murder, which the became Prime Minister as a benchmark against which last time I looked was a violent crime. There are a to judge the success or failure of this Government. number of areas of violent crime that are not covered in “Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime” became the British crime survey, so by definition it cannot the bywords for this Government’s approach to law and provide a true reflection of what is happening in this order. In that speech, the then Leader of the Opposition country. and subsequently Prime Minister set out a range of detailed programmes that he said were essential to Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): There is, of course, a fighting crime. So how did they do? reason why the British crime survey does not include Let us start, as Tony Blair did on that September day, murder, which is that it is quite difficult for people to with the bit in his speech about being tough on crime. respond to a survey if they have been murdered. I First on the list were measures to tackle juvenile offending. wonder whether there has not been a substantial change They have been a feature of virtually every one of the in murder over time. I find it rather worrying that the 49 criminal justice Bills that we have had since then. We hon. Gentleman is making that point about statistics have had initiative after initiative and new idea after when I thought that he agreed with us that we should new idea. Surely that must have made a difference. The have independent publication of the statistics and not number of persistent young offenders sentenced by resort to the sort of political shenanigans that he has courts in England and Wales have increased by 92 per just displayed, using reported crime statistics when he cent. since 1997. In 2007-08, more than 93,000 youngsters knows perfectly well—indeed, the previous Conservative aged 10 to 17 entered the criminal justice system for the Government said this repeatedly—that the British crime first time, up from only 78,000 five years previously, in survey is a more reliable estimate. 2002-03. Just a couple of weeks ago, Home Office research showed that 72 per cent. of 10 to 25-year-olds Chris Grayling: I am sorry, but I do not accept what admitted to committing crime or antisocial behaviour the hon. Gentleman says. I agree that we should have within a four-year period. independent figures. The figures have been changed a The next bit in the speech was the plan to crack down number of times over the years by the Government, as on illegal firearms. Over the past decade, there has been we know from 18 months ago under the previous Secretary a big jump in gun crime. The number of firearms of State when there were issues about the Government’s offences, excluding air weapons, has increased from use of figures. Of course we should have independent 5,209 a decade ago to a provisional figure of 8,184 in statistics, but we can deal only with the tools that we 2008-09, an increase of 57 per cent. The number of have available. They show, for example, that racially and people injured or killed by a gun has more than doubled, religiously aggravated harassment has also increased—more increasing from 864 a decade ago to 1,760 in 2008-09. than doubled—over the past decade. Behind those figures have been a series of high-profile tragedies, punishment shootings and a culture of weapons The fourth pledge given before the Government took on our streets not seen previously. office was to give the victims of crime the right to be consulted before charges were dropped or changed. Tony Blair then talked about the need to punish What a hollow promise that turned out to be, particularly properly crimes of violence, including racial violence. given the Home Secretary’s comments just last week Violent crime has increased from 615,000 offences in that “in an ideal world” every victim would be “visited 1998-99 to just over 1 million in 2008-09, an increase of by the police”, though it was admitted at the time that 68 per cent. In 1998, 23,500 people were cautioned for doing so would be “rather challenging”. If we talk to violence against the person. In 2007, that figure had the victims of crime, a very different picture emerges—one doubled, to 52,300. in which they receive very little information about what The Secretary of State for the Home Department is going and are not sure even when trials are happening. (Alan Johnson): The hon. Gentleman’s right hon. Friend The Home Secretary has talked to victims of crime, so the Leader of the Opposition said in the Queen’s Speech he knows that the promises made to the victims of debate last week that violent crime had risen by 70 per crime back in the 1990s have not been fulfilled a decade cent.—I notice that the figure has now come down to later. 68 per cent. I wrote to him—and have yet to receive a One of the most distressing cases of failed reply—pointing out that the British crime survey, which communications I have come across involved the owner the Opposition introduced and which, as far as I know, of a post office in Worcestershire, who was brutally everyone agrees is about impeccable as one can get, beaten by a gang of armed raiders and has still not shows a 41 per cent. decrease in violent crime. The made a full recovery. The assailants were caught and 563 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 564

[Chris Grayling] Then there is pledge No. 3—the real area where change is needed if we are to break the cycle of poverty, jailed. Their sentences were reduced substantially on deprivation, alienation and disorder in our society. The appeal, but the victims of that crime were not even told former Prime Minister said that we needed long-term that the appeal was happening. I know from having measures to break the culture of drugs, family instability, talked to the victims in that case that their sense of fear high unemployment and urban squalor. There has been and misery about what happened to them was made pretty broad agreement across the House in recent years much worse as a result. that getting people off benefits and into work is an essential part of tackling a whole range of challenges Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): My from family breakdown to crime. I know that that view hon. Friend is making a crucial point about the lack of is shared by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead information for victims. Although several years ago the (Mr. Field), who I see in his place; he has argued Government promised £11 million to the Crown persistently over the years for tough action in this area. Prosecution Service to track all cases online, is he The Labour party manifesto back in 1997 said: concerned that we have still not reached that point and that we are to have yet another White Paper in which “We will face up to the new issues that confront us. We will be the same promises will be made but not delivered? the party of welfare reform. In consultation and partnership with the people, we will design a modern welfare state based on rights and duties going together, fit for the modern world.” Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that has been the story of criminal justice under I know that the right hon. Member for Birkenhead tried this Government—promise and pledge and initiative hard to deliver that and I know that the current Prime made again and again, but little delivery or action. Minister stopped him from doing so. In reality, how have the Government done? There are 2.5 million Tough on crime? Fifteen years after it was first made, unemployed people today—20 per cent. higher than in that promise now looks pretty hollow. By the test that 1997. We now have the highest rate of youth unemployment Mr. Blair set for a future Labour Government back in on record, with one in five young people unable to find that first conference speech, in office they have failed a job. again and again. All these years later, as my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes) We are in the middle of a financial crisis, so before rightly says, they are still failing. Labour Members get too exercised about that, let us Did the Government do any better on the causes of take a different benchmark to judge performance: incapacity crime? Mr. Blair picked three things that he was going benefit. When he was Chancellor, the Prime Minister to do, and a comprehensive crime prevention programme said in his first Budget speech: was at the top of his list. In Labour’s 1997 manifesto, “No one in our society…should be excluded from the right to this “comprehensive programme” had changed into work either because of disability or incapacity, if they want to do placing some work.” “a new responsibility on local authorities to develop statutory He said: partnerships to help prevent crime”, “we will also bring forward proposals to help those who are which the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 introduced. disabled or on incapacity benefit who want training or work… That is rather different from a comprehensive crime these comprehensive and ambitious initiatives mean that, from prevention programme. now on, no section of society should suffer permanent exclusion.”— Of course—let us give the Government credit—there [Official Report, 2 July 1997; Vol. 297, c. 310.] have been some successes in fighting crime over the As he made that speech, there were 2.6 million people years that have had a big impact on the overall figures. I on incapacity benefit. Twelve years on, there are 2.6 million have to say, however, that that has not always been people on incapacity benefit. down to the Government. We owe a big debt of gratitude to the motor manufacturers, for example, who have So what went wrong? We have to remember all the taken huge steps forward in automotive security, and as Government’s boasts over the past 12 years about the a result there is less automotive crime. More and more number of new jobs that they have created. Even though householders have taken things into their own hands, we are now in difficult times for employment, they will dramatically improving household security with better still tell us that there are more people in work than there locks and alarms, not to mention the widespread use of were in 1997. How is that possible? The answer is very double glazing, which makes it more difficult to break simple—I pay tribute again to the work done by the into a house. There have been some benefits and some right hon. Member for Birkenhead, who has highlighted successes under Labour, but many of them have come many of these issues over the months and years—because from way outside the impact of Government policy. the vast majority of the new jobs created under this Government went to migrant workers entering this The next Blair pledge on the causes of crime was an country from overseas. anti-drugs initiative. Did that work? Recorded drugs offences have increased from 135,000 in 1998-99 to 243,000 last year—an increase of 79 per cent. Between Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): As the hon. 1998 and 2008-09, the proportion of adults using cocaine Gentleman was kind enough to cite me earlier, may I has more than doubled. A recent report by the European ask him a question about how he drew up the amendment Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction that that we are debating today? If we ask our voters, as we compared drug use in 28 countries in Europe revealed do by opinion poll, which issue most concerns them, we that we had the highest proportion of cocaine use find that it is immigration. Why when tabling their among adults and 15 and 16-year-olds—not much of a amendment did the Opposition not want us to debate success there. immigration as part of the Gracious Speech? 565 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 566

Chris Grayling: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): I tend to agree with we may debate issues broadly within the remit of the the hon. Gentleman on this matter, but will he tell the Gracious Speech. I will talk about immigration in the House where he would draw the line between a less course of my speech and I will be delighted to hear him serious, and a more serious, case? do so too, if he seeks to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker. The truth is—I think he would agree—that Chris Grayling: The Scottish system has an established over the past 12 years, while people have come into this definition, which I will not go through in detail as the country from overseas and successfully found jobs, hon. Gentleman can read it himself. Essentially, however, entire communities have been trapped in poverty and in it treats investigations into serious crimes, such as a rape a cycle of deprivation and failure, which continues to or murder, differently, allowing a dividing line to be blight the lives of far too many of our citizens. drawn between serious cases in which retention of DNA for a period might be of benefit, and those minor cases, The frustrating thing is that we now know—I do not which are frequently highlighted in our media, where blame the current Home Secretary, as he was not in the there is no requirement to retain the DNA of the job at the time—that Ministers did this deliberately. individuals concerned. They took a conscious decision to open up our immigration to a large number of migrant workers; they took a Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): Does my conscious decision to lower the bar for investigations hon. Friend share my concern that 56 non-police bodies into whether people should or should not be allowed to in this country have access to the DNA database? Does stay in the UK; and they took a deliberate decision to he not see a common thread running between that and try to cover up what they had done. It was a scandalous the access that local government now has to people’s approach to public policy from a Government who have individual liberties following the introduction, and misuse kept getting things wrong year after year and who have of, the anti-terrorism legislation? shown little understanding of the challenge that Britain faces. Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is right. The Gracious That is why the Government’s approach to law and Speech should include measures to end the mission order has been so dominated by more and more legislation, creep that has existed under this Government in the and more and more erosion of the basic rights of our area of civil liberties, whereby powers introduced for citizens. We see that in their latest attempt to deal with necessary reasons of national security are used for the controversial issue of the DNA database. The database purposes that have no relation to that whatever. The is growing in size all the time, but the number of Government have allowed mission creep in far too DNA-related detections is falling. The Government many areas, and it must be reined back. I am disappointed nevertheless persist in their desire to keep the DNA of that they are not taking such steps, and if we are elected innocent people on the database for six years, even next spring we will certainly do so. when people have been suspected of the most minor of I wish the Government would understand that more offences and have been charged with or found guilty of law does not mean more order. If one introduces hundreds precisely nothing. Let me make it clear to the Home of new offences in endless criminal justice Bills, one Secretary today that although there are things in the merely swamps police in yet more new bureaucracy. Policing and Crime Bill that we support, we will not When will the Government realise that their constant allow it to go through in a rush before the election if it belief that we need more top-down solutions is plain means leaving in place an unacceptable regime for our wrong? The country needs a fresh start and a fresh DNA database. approach, particularly to the blight of antisocial behaviour that has characterised Labour’s years in government, (Leicester, East) (Lab): I agree with the and to which their response remains woefully inadequate. hon. Gentleman on the database. I cannot understand We need an instant response that does not let offenders why the DNA of innocent people is retained on it. Even get away with antisocial behaviour time and again, if we accept the six-year limit, that is not what the leaving them with a clear sense that the system has no European Court has ruled. Is he concerned about teeth. It takes months to put in place an antisocial newspaper reports that people are being arrested merely behaviour order: by the time the ASBO mechanism because their DNA should be retained on a database kicks in, they have offended multiple times. The system that now has 750,000 innocent people’s names on it? If sends the message that if they do something wrong, those reports are correct, it is a very serious issue. nothing happens to them. Chris Grayling: The right hon. Gentleman is right to We need to put an end to the caution culture that highlight that matter of concern. When the Bill is allows people who commit serious acts of violence debated, it will be dealt with straightforwardly by our against strangers to get away with a legal slap on the bringing forward again proposals to extend the Scottish wrist, and all because the bureaucracy that the Government system across the UK. As he knows, that system would have put in place makes that easier than spending days allow DNA to be retained for up to five years in the doing the paperwork necessary for a prosecution. It is most serious cases, but would not allow it to be retained time to stop the late-night drinking culture that the in minor cases. Were that law in place, we would not Government deliberately fostered, leaving town centres have seen such issues highlighted this week. I would swamped by disorder at the weekends and the police welcome his support if we sought to push the Government stretched into an ever thinner blue line. to deliver such a DNA system before the election. If the It is also time to accelerate the Government’s tentative Home Secretary wants his Bill to get through, let us set steps to cut down bureaucracy. I applaud some of what aside the Government’s current proposals and work has been done in recent months, and I applaud the together on putting in place in the UK the Scottish stop-and-search measures in the Bill, especially as we system, which is supported by Members on both sides proposed them in the first place. I am glad that the of the House, as soon as possible. Government have come to agree with us. 567 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 568

[Chris Grayling] Mr. Frank Field: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it is a matter not just of people coming here to The Government’s automatic early release scheme work, but of people come here to work who then must also go. Letting prisoners out after serving a become citizens? That is what is growing our population. minority of their sentence, with no regard whatever to their standards of behaviour, just tells those offenders Chris Grayling: That is certainly the case, and the that they can get away with it. It is another example of right hon. Gentleman will have seen the press investigation the mismatch between the Labour party’s rhetoric in at the weekend into the scandalous situation of those opposition and actions in government. institutions that provide certification on English language I looked earlier at one of the speeches made by the capabilities for those applying for nationality. The fact Justice Secretary in a debate on the Queen’s Speech a that that has been taking place under the nose of the few months before the 1997 election. He said: Home Office is a big failing, and I hope that the Home “We now have the bizarre situation where, according to figures Secretary will tell the House how he is dealing with the that I gave in my paper, the sentence length for repeat house problem. Having people securing citizenship on a false burglars remains the same—at 15 months— whether for a first, prospectus is utterly unacceptable. second or third conviction.” —[Official Report, 28 October 1996; The right hon. Member for Birkenhead is right that Vol. 284, c. 352.] the issue is not just people coming to the country to live A burglar in Britain today is unlikely to get 15 months and work; it is also a matter of introducing tighter for a first conviction; he is likely to get off, be released restrictions on spouse visas, and tightening up the student and not go to jail at all. That is what has happened after visa system. However, I have profound doubts about the 12 years of Labour Government. The system is not Government’s current proposals, which would result in tough, as they promised, but more and more lax, sending the closure not just of rogue colleges, which we all want all the wrong messages and saying to too many offenders to see disappear, but of legitimate businesses up and that they can just get away with it. down the country, which we would not want to see David T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Does my hon. closed. I urge the Government to take care to ensure Friend also acknowledge that even were the maximum that those proposals do not have unintended consequences. 15-month sentence applied, the reality is that someone We also need real action to tackle illegal immigration, so sentenced would probably only serve about five with a proper, dedicated border police force to tackle months in prison? the problem, and particularly to get to grips with the evil networks of people traffickers and smugglers. Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. [Interruption.] More to the point, does the Home Secretary Mr. Frank Field: The Leader of the Opposition has not understand that the automatic early- release scheme—he said, although not in this House, that he would hope, as was saying from a sedentary position that it is only Prime Minister, to reduce immigration to 50,000 a year. 18 days—gives an offender a sense that they have bucked Will the Opposition please give that commitment in the the system. If they get out early automatically, with no House? relation to how they have behaved in prison, it says to them that the system does not have the teeth they thought Chris Grayling: The right hon. Gentleman has heard it might have, and they can just get away with it. that commitment on many occasions. I strongly believe We also need thoughtful and real social reform finally that we need to bring immigration down to the level that to get to grips with the causes of crime—real welfare we saw in the first part of the 1990s—I would not pick reform, not the failure of the new deal and the tentative an exact number, but he knows that we are talking in the approaches to change that have followed our radical region of tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands. blueprint for a new kind of welfare state. We will hear That is a substantial reduction, and is a necessary part more about that later from my right hon. Friend the of a wise and sensible immigration policy—not a closed- Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May). We need the kind door policy, because we are an international trading of innovative changes in our education system and in nation and cannot afford to close the shutters altogether. the health visitor profession that were set out in the However, we must have proper controls for the future debate last Thursday by my hon. Friends the Members that relate to the needs of our society, the pressure on for Surrey Heath () and for South our services and the nature of Britain today. Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley). We need a much smarter Mr. Anthony Steen (Totnes) (Con): I welcomed my approach to the rehabilitation of prisoners, which is hon. Friend’s reference to people-trafficking. Does he part of our prison reform and welfare proposals. agree that, although the Government have a good record We also need much more radical changes on DNA in that regard and have done a great deal, we could do and identity cards than this Government have been more? In particular, has he considered the idea of a willing to countenance. That means dealing with the rapporteur in the Home Office to provide a focus on the DNA database issue, and scrapping the now voluntary issue? Has he also considered giving people who come ID cards scheme altogether. I am interested to know here to work Gastarbeiter status, which would mean whether Ministers have their ID cards with them today— their working for a contracted period and then returning [HON.MEMBERS: “Full house.”] Oh, very impressive. home? The Immigration Minister did not have his when we both appeared on “Question Time” last week. Chris Grayling: I think that the job of tackling human We also need a Government who will finally get to trafficking and improving the quality of our work in grips with the job of controlling our borders. That combating the traffickers would be done best by the involves imposing an annual cap on the number of proposed border police force. I think that that would people coming to live and work in the UK—that is part, enable the law enforcement world to focus on an issue but an important part, of the picture. that desperately needs to be dealt with even more effectively 569 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 570 than it has been so far. No Government do everything I commend the Government on the fact that, during badly, and I accept that some good work has been done difficult times for our labour market, we are not allowing over the years, but we all recognise that there is more to any tier 3 people into the country. That is the right be done, and I think that a border police force could policy, and we have supported it from the start. However, step up our work. what smart immigration policy should seek to achieve is As for my hon. Friend’s second point, the big issue a sensible balance between economic needs and pressures confronting us is the requirement for people who come on public services. and work here to leave when their time has expired. If they are granted a three-year visa, they must leave after Keith Vaz: This is, in a sense, a false debate. We three years. If I have one big criticism of what the cannot prevent people from the European Union from Government have done over the past decade, it is that coming into this country, and there can be no limit to they have failed to ensure that that happens. their number. The trouble with the arguments advanced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead Mr. Shailesh Vara (North-West Cambridgeshire) (Con): (Mr. Field) and others is that they contradict our obligations My hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way. to the EU. Those people have an absolute right to come Does he agree that the issue of immigration needs to be here, and we are talking about an uncontrolled number. addressed sensitively and carefully? Is it not highly They can come and work here just as British citizens regrettable that when Conservative Members have sought can go to any other European country and work there. to engage in a proper debate we have been accused of racism, and has not that charge against us directly led to Chris Grayling: I have two responses to that intervention. the growth of the far right? Should not the Government First, I think that it was a great mistake for the Government learn that engaging in a constructive debate might be not to introduce transition controls when the countries more sensible, and to the greater good of the country, of eastern Europe joined the EU five years ago—a great than levelling their usual charges against us? mistake that should not have been made. Secondly, we all hope that as those countries continue to bed into the Chris Grayling: I think it extremely important for any European Union, living standards will rise across Europe of us who debate these matters to do so with great and the migration flows that we have seen in recent sensitivity. It is always very unfortunate when, for example, years will balance themselves. I am confident that we the phrase “dog whistle” is used. The reality is that the are already seeing flows of people who have come to debate is not about race or ethnic background, but this country returning to the countries from which they about the country’s resources, the services that we have, came, and I am not convinced as others may be that this and the pressures on housing and on school and is still a long-term problem. Nevertheless, we should hospital places. It has nothing to do with race in a have had transition controls at the start. multicultural society; it is all about the pressures on the The Gracious Speech offers us virtually none of the infrastructure of the country, and that is where we things that the country needs in order to deal with the should centre it. challenges that we face, and the bits that it does offer have been lifted from Opposition policy documents. I Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): must say that it is nice to know that when a Government The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Select are as weak as this Government, Opposition politicians Committee on Communities and Local Government, can set the agenda; but what the country needs is not a which I chair, produced a report about a year ago on Government who copy their opponents because they precisely the subject that we are discussing: community have no ideas left, but a fresh start, a fresh sense of cohesion and migration. I agree with him about the direction, and a clear strategy for our country. This is a need to ensure that when there are pressures on public Government who have nothing left to offer. services, the financial benefit to the country of immigration Let me end by offering back to the Government some should be reallocated to the areas that bear the pressure. wise words from one of our most prominent public Does he accept, however, that part of the problem is figures: that constant harping on numbers, and numbers alone, tends to suggest that the presence of any extra people is “The first duty of any Government is to secure the safety of their citizens and their communities. On that, the present detrimental, and prevents the subtle, measured debate Administration have failed. They have lost not only the plot on in which—as was pointed out by the hon. Member for law and order, but the confidence of the British people. The North-West Cambridgeshire (Mr. Vara)—we ought to Government are profoundly out of touch with people’s feelings be involved? and anxieties. They lack a proper understanding of the causes of crime, and they have no coherent strategy or vision for dealing Chris Grayling: The hon. Lady must have misheard with the epidemic of crime and disorder that now scars the what I said a moment ago. I said very clearly that we nation.”—[Official Report, 28 October 1996; Vol. 284, c. 359.] should not close our doors, that we are an international Those words were spoken by the current Justice Secretary trading nation, and that there will be a need for people 13 years ago. Never have his words proved more correct to come in and out of the country. The issue is not than they have today. about an absolute number at any particular point in history. The issue is about ensuring that we protect the 2.37 pm ability of our public services to deal with the demands made of them, and that we are able to meet housing The Secretary of State for the Home Department infrastructure needs. Inevitably, immigration policy needs (Alan Johnson): I welcome the opportunity to debate to be shaped by that as well as by the needs of business, the proposals in Her Majesty’s Gracious Speech. I and the need of our domestic British population to find apologise in advance for not being able to be present for jobs and obtain the right skills. the winding-up speeches. 571 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 572

[Alan Johnson] He also said on a separate occasion: “If you believe the politicians”— The Crime and Security Bill includes measures to he is referring here not to us on the Labour Benches, but tackle youth crime and antisocial behaviour. It will give to the Conservatives, and the hon. Gentleman in greater protection to victims of crime, particularly women particular— and girls. It will prevent wheel-clamping businesses from imposing exorbitant fines, it will cut down police “we have a broken society, in which the courage and morals of young people have been sapped by welfarism and political bureaucracy, and it will establish a new legal framework correctness…you can see what piffle that is.” for the retention of DNA records. That is what my cousin Boris Johnson says, and I agree. Although the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) did not actually say the words, he Chris Grayling: Will the Home Secretary tell the returned again to the “broken Britain” theme that has House what he thinks about recent disturbing reports been his mantra for some time. However, he now seems that we are now seeing an increasing number of inter-gang to have married that—“married” being the operative punishment shootings in London, with young people word, or so it will seem to those who have read The Sunday being shot in the legs in gang conflicts to make an Times—to one of the Conservative Party’s greatest hits: inter-gang point? What is his reaction to that? What “back to basics”. He wants to convince more couples does he think has caused it, and what does he think we that they should marry; that, he believes, is essential to should do about it? solving the social problems to which he has referred. But how would he do that? How is a 21st population to Alan Johnson: I shall come on to that, because specific be tempted, cajoled or enticed into abandoning their measures in the Queen’s Speech are of relevance to this wicked cohabitation in order to get spliced? It is suggested issue, but first let me mention what I am sure must have that all official forms must state whether a couple are been another attempt by the hon. Gentleman to undermine married or not. That is brilliant, and probably infallible. his own side. He has talked about “The Wire” and It will go with the other measures that the hon. Gentleman suggested that Britain, and especially London and has announced, such as cutting police numbers this Manchester, were becoming like the society depicted in year, abandoning police authorities, and undermining that show. The Baltimore Sun reporter, Justin Fenton, the operational authority of chief constables. That, in says, however, that British the words of the Conservative amendment, is what he believes will “police stations could offer a view of the future of American policing.” “offer answers to the growing social challenges facing the United Kingdom”. He also believes that the DNA sampling used in Britain is light years ahead of that in the USA, while saying David T.C. Davies: I do not understand the Secretary that Britain’s closed circuit television system can track a of State’s confusion. Official forms nowadays seem to homicide suspect in real time and protect civil liberties, ask for all sorts of information. They ask whether as it can prove the police wrong if they lie or abuse a people are gay, straight, transgender—whatever that suspect. He also says that Baltimore’s drug problem is—black, Asian, Chinese or something else. Why should could be reduced if the city adopted the British drug they not ask whether people are married? Surely that is testing and counselling services used on all offenders on about the only bit of information that the Government arrest. In relation to the broken Britain mantra, he says are missing nowadays. that he was warned about Brixton, but that he found it was being transformed into a nice area. He spoke to Alan Johnson: We have heard the views of the hon. people who lived there, who said that it was nice and Member for Epsom and Ewell reiterated in the form of they liked living there, and he did not get the same sense a major policy announcement from the Opposition that he got in Baltimore. Benches. We can see what this country would have to On the specific issue that the hon. Gentleman mentions, look forward to under a Conservative Administration: Justin Fenton went to see the brilliant Trident operation an age of austerity, with foxhunting reintroduced for against gun crime that is run by the police in London. our recreation, and with marriage—[Interruption.] Yes, He said that they had 25 detectives on one case, whereas foxhunting and marriage. I am beginning to think the in Baltimore it is more like two per case. The resources hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell might be an undercover are impressive, he said. agent planted on the Opposition Benches—perhaps by Lord Mandelson—to disrupt and undermine the I therefore say to the hon. Gentleman that there is a Conservative party. We all admired his independence very important debate—he has engaged in it—about when he went straight on to live television and announced knife and gun crime. It is a crucial debate for the House, how wrong his party was to employ General Dannatt as but his making spurious comparisons with Baltimore a defence adviser, but what if that was not another adds nothing to it, and that is made even worse by his gaffe? What if the hon. Gentleman simply broke cover using the cheap “I’m au fait with popular culture” by forgetting in the heat of the moment what he was approach of attaching his argument to a popular television supposed to be doing? programme. Let me remind the House of the response of the Chris Grayling: One development seen in North Conservative leader-in-waiting, my cousin Boris, to this American cities in recent times is the involvement of broken Britain mantra. He said: children as young as ten and 11 in running drugs. That “Someone the other day”— is now becoming a feature of some estates in the UK. he was referring here to the hon. Member for Epsom Why does the Home Secretary think that that is happening? and Ewell— What are the causes, and what does he think we can do “compared London with Baltimore; absolute nonsense.” about it? 573 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 574

Alan Johnson: The hon. Gentleman should not denigrate Alan Johnson: I believe that the hon. Member for what is happening in Manchester and London and Epsom and Ewell is trying to help us achieve that. compare it in this way, exaggerate it and use that kind of There were 2.9 million pensioners in abject poverty—that hyperbole. Of course we have some issues in this country. is £69 a week with income support—and in the previous Incidentally, the hon. Gentleman mentioned the murder 18 years they had one real-terms increase in pensions, rate, and the point made by the hon. Member for and that was the year the Conservatives put VAT on Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) about the British crime survey fuel. was right, because someone cannot be surveyed if they are dead. The murder rate is 1.4 per 100,000. That puts Chris Huhne: The Home Secretary has not mentioned us 46th in the world, below Finland, Portugal and one crucial factor about the 1980s: output began rising Iceland. It is the lowest rate we have had for many years. from the end of 1980, but the recovery was so slow that I believe that this broken Britain mantra is actually unemployment did not fall until 1986. Can he predict designed to help us, however, because it reminds the what the effect on crime would be if that were to happen British public what life was like in the ’80s and ’90s— again under a Conservative Government? [Interruption.] Well, the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell began his speech by saying that we had been in Alan Johnson: The hon. Gentleman raises an important power for 12 years—soon to be 13 years—and that that point. We are in recession at present, as we were in the was the time to see what a Government had done. There 1980s and 1990s—although this is a global recession was spiralling crime in the ’80s and ’90s, and more than whereas the previous one was made in Britain—and we 3 million unemployed. There were 24-hour trolley waits find from looking at the record of the ’80s and ’90s that in accident and emergency, people waiting years for a there was a huge spiral in the crime rate because of simple cataract operation, single parents stigmatised, precisely the reasons the hon. Gentleman mentions. In the gay and lesbian community offended by section 28, particular, there was a 60 per cent. increase in domestic mortgage repossessions, poverty pay—when we introduced violence at that time, and domestic violence is an important the minimum wage, we found that a quarter of a million aspect of my remarks. people were on £1.50 an hour—and appalling educational The amendment moved by the hon. Member for issues. I ask any Conservative Member to tell me what Epsom and Ewell mentions welfare dependency, and he was the level of attainment of five good GCSEs—at spoke about his party’s determination to get people off A* to C—in inner London, where we are now, in 1997, incapacity benefit, but this country had about 700,000 after 18 years of Tory rule? Does anyone wish to people on incapacity benefit until the ’80s and ’90s contribute a figure? when the Conservative Government deliberately and persistently shepherded working people out of the coal Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con) rose— mines, the steel works and the shipyards, and on to a life of welfare dependency in order to suppress the Alan Johnson: Is the hon. Gentleman going to tell unemployment statistics. By the time they left office, the me? number was 2.6 million, so if Britain was ever broken, it Mr. Baron: I thank the Home Secretary for giving was in those years, when one in four British children way, but I suggest to him that my constituents are more were being raised in poverty—the worst record of any interested in the future than the past. What is of particular European country. interest to them is that, of the 52,000 prisoners who Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): My have been released early over the past few years, 10,000 right hon. Friend talks about the Government’s good have been violent offenders, and also that more than record on getting people into work. The right hon. 1,000 offences have been committed by prisoners who Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) recently provoked have been released early. What message does the Home headlines such as “Benefits Britain” and “Shameless Secretary think that sends to the law-abiding majority, Labour”when she claimed that the number of households other than that our prisons are overcrowded? receiving more than £15,000 in benefits had doubled. Alan Johnson: The message is— That might be true, but when one examines the statistics on households with a member working, one finds that Mr. Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): Will the Home the numbers have not increased at all. The reason for Secretary give way? the doubling is because the Labour Government have been far more generous to pensioners and it is they, Alan Johnson: I will do so when I have said something particularly those who are in greater need, who have to give way on. benefited from the increase in benefits, not those of The message is that there are more criminals behind working age. bars now, serving longer sentences. The issue regarding foreign national prisoners began earlier and has carried Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend makes a valid point, on. It has been an inherent problem over many years which leads me to mention the fact that 1 million of that needed to be tackled. Our record after 12 or those pensioners who were in abject poverty at the end 13 years is an extraordinary improvement on the 18 years of the 1990s have now been taken out of poverty. of the previous Government. Thanks to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and her predecessors, a combination Mr. Hepburn: I thank the Home Secretary for giving of pension credit, the winter fuel allowance, good increases way. May I remind Opposition Members of the great in the state pension, free travel and free TV licences has statement that Nye Bevan made many years ago: we do transformed the lives of those pensioners, many of not need to look in the crystal ball when we read the whom were women in their 80s who did not qualify book? That is all we need to remind the British people even for the basic state pension because they had not of in respect of the Tories. paid enough national insurance contributions. 575 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 576

[Alan Johnson] 2020 target. The Bill will create a child poverty commission to advise the Government on policy development and Ten years ago, this Government made an historic will place a clear duty on local authorities both to commitment to eradicate child poverty. Was it ambitious? reduce poverty locally and mitigate its effects. Yes. Was it foolhardy? No. It was a demonstration of Under the provisions of our Bill, our focus on supporting how seriously our country took this issue and how the poorest families in the country will not merely determined we were to resolve it. Since 1997, more than continue—it will intensify. We are already creating up to 1.7 million children have been lifted out of absolute 95,000 new jobs from the £1 billion future jobs fund; the poverty. first jobs became available in October and there will be Mrs. Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con): As the Secretary thousands more in the coming months. Additionally, of State has raised the issue of child poverty, perhaps he my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced would like to tell the House whether this Government last week further steps to tackle youth unemployment are going to reach their target of halving child poverty in order to avoid at all costs what happened in the by 2010. If they were to stay in government, would they 1980s, when hundreds of thousands of young people be eradicating child poverty by 2020? were left to drift into long-term unemployment. Let me now turn to the Crime and Security Bill, Alan Johnson: We are still working towards halving which comes at a time when there are more police child poverty by 2010. That will be difficult, because officers than ever before, with substantial support from there has been a global recession—[Interruption.] We police community support officers, which did not previously are still hopeful. The right hon. Lady’s second question exist, and with more money than ever available to spend was about reaching the 2020 target, and that is exactly on tackling crime. This country’s police and support what our Bill is designed to do. Everyone in this House staff have presided over the first sustained reduction in might believe that this is one of the most important crime in almost 100 years, with violent crime having objectives that we can set. All the measures necessary decreased by 41 per cent. since 1997 and public confidence will of course be put in place, but we need to send a increasing. However, there remain communities across signal out about how seriously we take the issue. the country in which the fear of crime is endemic and I was discussing the number of people who have been antisocial behaviour is far too prevalent. We should not lifted out of poverty. As I said, since 1997, more than portray this issue as if it is some kind of battle between 1.7 million children have been lifted out of absolute the generations, not least because 60 per cent. of antisocial poverty, and 500,000 have been lifted out of relative behaviour orders are handed to adults and because, as poverty—that is very difficult to do when the living we saw with the tragic case of Fiona Pilkington, teenagers standards of the whole country are rising. However, we are as likely to be the victims as the perpetrators. The need further, decisive action to meet our goal to eradicate vast majority of young people are law-abiding and hard child poverty altogether by 2020. That is not an ambition working, and make a positive contribution to their that we intend to abandon during the global downturn; communities. However, some of them drift into antisocial indeed, the recession makes the objective more important, behaviour and gang-related crime. not less. John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): On abolishing Keith Vaz: Of course I agree with the Home Secretary child poverty by 2020, a lot of outside bodies, such as that great has been made. As he knows, the Bill the Child Poverty Action Group, have said that we need deals with the DNA database. Is he as concerned as I to put in serious extra resources, which did not appear am about reports that a number of young people are in last year’s Budget. Is the Secretary of State indicating being arrested just so they can be put on the DNA that his Government will put in more resources specifically database, that the DNA profiles of about three quarters for this? of all young black men are on the database, and that 750,000 innocent people are still on it? I know that the Alan Johnson: All the measures we are taking in Government have said that these names should be cleared difficult economic circumstances will be important, be within six years, but is he prepared, during the passage they on child tax credit, working tax credit or continuing of the Bill, to engage with Members on both sides of to increase the national minimum wage. I should point the House to try to ensure that that number is reduced? out that on a quiet Friday, eight Conservative Members—to be fair, they were not Front Benchers—tried to move a Alan Johnson: I welcome the debate on this matter, resolution to freeze the national minimum wage. The which was why we agreed to pull these clauses from the measures that we will introduce on housing benefit will Policing and Crime Bill and include them in the Crime also make an enormous contribution. and Security Bill. As I said in an article in this morning’s The Gracious Speech confirmed that we will introduce edition of , this is a sensitive matter that the Child Poverty Bill in the current Session. It has needs to be carefully debated. I would be concerned already been widely debated in this Chamber and there about yesterday’s reports if I felt that they were accurate. is support from both sides of this House for further I understand that they have come from one retired action to reduce substantially relative, absolute and police officer who has said that he thought that the persistent child poverty, as well as material deprivation. police were deliberately arresting people—we should The Bill will legally bind the Government to taking the not forget that people get on the DNA database by sustained action necessary to meet the 2020 target, being arrested for a recordable crime, for which they whether that is by increasing parental employment and can serve a prison sentence—merely to get them on the skills, providing financial support or improving health, DNA database. I think more highly of our police service housing, education and social services. It also commits than that, and certainly the response from the Association us to report annually to Parliament on progress on the of Chief Police Officers and others in the police service 577 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 578 expressed the fact that they were extremely offended by I was talking about the groundbreaking powers in the that suggestion. My right hon. Friend will be conducting Crime and Disorder Act 1998, which, for the first time, a review of the issue with the distinguished Committee provided the police, local authorities and other agencies that he chairs, but I do not believe that this report with civil powers to deal with behaviour that, although reflects common practice in the police. it was not yet criminal, was a major source of insecurity and unhappiness. Along with the Anti-social Behaviour Mr. Hepburn: Has the Secretary of State closed his Act 2003, that has provided police and local authorities mind altogether to the possibility of having everybody with the powers that they need to tackle antisocial on a DNA database? The problem seems to be people behaviour effectively, including acceptable behaviour getting off, and people complaining about those people contracts, antisocial behaviour orders and powers to getting off and not getting locked up. Has he closed his close crack houses and evict irresponsible tenants. mind to that fact? The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell has Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend might wish to table his demonstrated yet again his profound misunderstanding proposal as an amendment as the Bill goes through the of the powers that are now available to tackle such House. I understand that he makes a very serious point, problems. In a newspaper interview last week, he said which relates to the issues that my right hon. Friend the that there should be informal solutions that the police Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) raised about a could use—there are. He said that ASBOs should be disproportionate representation from the black and minority more of a last resort if nothing else is working—that ethnic community. I believe that that is a problem for is precisely what they are. He said that the police should be the criminal justice system as a whole, not just the DNA allowed to impose grounding orders and instant community database, although the DNA database reflects it. The penalties—they can. Indeed, some groundbreaking work way round it would be to have a DNA database containing is being done in the west midlands in that respect, everyone’s DNA, but I am not proposing that. I have although all police authorities have that power. not even opened my mind to that, never mind closed it I disagree with the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion—he again. did not mention this point in his speech, but it was yet Chris Grayling: May I take the Secretary of State again included in his Daily Mail interview—that the back to the issue of young black men on the DNA police should be able to confiscate mobile phones and database? I am sure that since yesterday’s reports he will iPods from 13-year-olds. He said that that would be a have asked for information about the current situation, simple, non-criminalising intervention. So, a police officer so will he share it with the House? Is it correct that the could simply take a child’s property—presumably with proportion of young black men who are on the database no authority, no consultation and no reference to the is as was stated? If so, what proportion of those on the parents, otherwise it will hardly be simple and quick, database have actually been convicted of an offence? and with very little, if any, documentation—as an arbitrary punishment for a minor offence. That is the kind of Alan Johnson: The information that I have received is simple, non-criminalising police intervention that is unlikely that last year the proportion of young black men on the to bolster confidence in the police among the young. I DNA database was about 9 per cent. and the proportion suggest that it would also be unlikely to please parents, of the Asian population on the database was 5 per cent. although I suppose that they could always fill in a form The figure for the Asian population is about proportionate of complaint provided that there something on there to to the population as a whole, but the 9 per cent. is not. say whether they were married or not. The 9 per cent. figure for those on the database is much higher than the 2 per cent. represented in the population Parenting orders have been of immense importance as a whole. That is an issue, but we knew that it was an when parents of children who are persistent offenders issue before yesterday’s reports. are either incapable of stopping their child’s bad behaviour or remain stubbornly ignorant of it. The Bill will further Several hon. Members rose— address that by ensuring that courts consider a child’s Alan Johnson: I am not even on to the DNA database parenting need before they place an ASBO on 10 to yet—I shall be coming to that in a second—but I shall 15-year-olds. At that point, a voluntary parenting contract take one further intervention. or a parenting order could be imposed. If that ASBO was subsequently breached, a parenting order would Mr. Vara: The Home Secretary has just referred to automatically be triggered, rather than being discretionary. black and Asian DNA figures. Is there any way of determining which groups that means within the Asian Mr. Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Should it community, such as Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi and not be the case that when a young person commits a so on? In the black community, there is a huge difference criminal act, the parents should be financially liable for between those from Africa and those from the Caribbean the cost of reparation? countries. Is it possible to be a bit more precise rather than being so generic? It is a bit like referring to the figures for Europeans in the same way. Alan Johnson: In some cases, the parents are asked, as part of the informal arrangements, to get their child to Alan Johnson: It probably is possible to be more go and do something to restore what happened, which precise, but that is the information that I was given they would have to pay for. That is very much what is yesterday. There is a paucity of good research on this happening in the west midlands at the moment. In all and perhaps we need to do substantially more to ensure cases, parenting orders are not a soft option. They are a that we have more accurate figures. I know that the hon. contract between parents and the authorities—not just Gentleman is interested in these issues, so I shall look to the police, but local authorities, housing authorities and see whether there are any further figures on the breakdown social services—to end the kind of behaviour that sometimes and furnish him with that information. leads to children being disruptive. Whether there is a 579 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 580

[Alan Johnson] Today, the violence against women and girls strategy was published. It sets out how we will intensify our financial or a physical obligation to change, that certainly efforts to prevent domestic and sexual violence, in particular requires the parents to do something and not simply to by challenging attitudes that condone such behaviour put up with their child’s behaviour. and by providing greater support to victims. The strategy goes wider than domestic violence, but Chief Constable Dr. Starkey: Although it is interesting to suggest that Brian Moore was asked to examine that specific issue from parents should be made financially liable, is it not a policing perspective, and one of his recommendations important to avoid what I might call the Bullingdon relates to the introduction of domestic violence protection club syndrome, whereby rich students commit a lot of orders. They would give the police powers to ban the damage in a restaurant for fun, financially recompense attacker from the home of their victim for up to 28 days the restaurateur as they leave and think that that just to provide vital respite for victims to consider their wipes out the problem? options. Crucially, that means that it would not be the victim who would be forced to leave her home, as is too Alan Johnson: If antisocial behaviour orders had often the case at the moment, but the perpetrator. been around at the time, I am sure that one would have We have included that proposal in the Crime and been served on the former Member for Henley and his Security Bill, which will also make it an offence not to colleagues. keep air weapons under lock and key and well out of the reach of children. Introducing a compulsory licensing Chris Grayling: Will the Home Secretary clarify? In scheme for wheel clampers will also allow us to set the event of an informal solution being applied—for limits on the fines that they can impose, and we will example, if a police officer agrees with a family and a outlaw rogue operators who extort vast sums from young person that that young person should go and do drivers and bring the entire sector into disrepute. Finally, some community work the following weekend—what is this Bill proposes a new framework for the retention of the legal consequence if that work is not completed? DNA records. Alan Johnson: As it is an informal civil order, it does Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): I want to take the not even get into the realms of bureaucracy and, as it is Home Secretary back to the earlier intervention by one the kind of thing that the hon. Gentleman rightly said his colleagues. The Government have created the largest should be available and that is available, there would DNA database in the world, with 1 million innocent not be much of a consequence. That is the same with all people included on it. Is not the logic of that that the informal measures. The problem is that taking an iPod Government should go for a universal database that away from someone goes beyond the idea of restorative covers everybody? Surely that is the logic of their position. justice and is much more serious and threatening. The conditions that the courts impose on parents will Alan Johnson: No, it is not, as the database includes vary in each case. They might require the parent to people who have committed a crime or been arrested make sure that their child is at home and supervised but not charged. The European Court did not say that it during certain hours at night, or they might ban the was wrong to include on the database people who had child from associating with other known troublemakers. been arrested but not charged, but that we should not The parent might be instructed to seek treatment for keep that information for an indeterminate time. That drug or alcohol problems, or attend intensive parenting was its decision, and I believe that the changes that we classes. More usually, there will be a combination of are proposing in the Bill will meet the points made by such conditions. the European Court. Let me turn to the subject of gang injunctions. Although Mr. Burrowes: The Home Secretary has spoken about the number of young people involved in gang violence domestic violence, gang crime and antisocial behaviour, is small, the impact that those young people have on the but there has been no reference to drugs and alcohol. communities in which they live can be extreme—both in The right hon. Gentleman has taken off his glasses, but terms of crime and antisocial behaviour and in terms of will he take off his rose-tinted glasses and recognise that generating a fear of crime. The Policing and Crime we top the European league for the problematic use of Act 2009 gives police and local authorities new powers drugs such as cocaine and amphetamines by young to issue injunctions to prevent gang violence. The Crime people? A total of £1.5 billion has been paid into the and Security Bill will extend such injunctions to 14 to pot for drug treatment, enforcement and prevention, 17-year-olds. They can be used to prevent the young but what are the results? person from going to a particular place, from meeting other gang members or from using dogs as weapons to Alan Johnson: In many ways, parenting orders get to intimidate the community. In addition, they can be used the problems caused by antisocial behaviour. All hon. to direct young people towards targeted support that Members will know from their constituency experience will help to address any underlying issues that might be that there are constant problems with some families. prevalent. They can be caused by children, parents or people The good news about domestic violence is that the visiting the home, but there is usually a drug or alcohol British crime survey shows a 65 per cent. reduction in it problem at the heart of the behaviour that needs to be since 1995, and the conviction rate is rising. The bad addressed. news is that it still accounts for 14 per cent. of all violent Drug use in this country is at the lowest level that it crime and its impact continues to ruin the lives of has ever been. Young people make up the most difficult women and children. One woman every week is murdered group, but drug use among the young is down by 5 per by a current or former partner. It used to be two or cent. Progress has been made, although perhaps not three, but the situation is still unacceptable. enough, but the remarkable thing is the number of 581 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 582 people—over a quarter of a million—who are receiving However, the problems are not caused by the Licensing treatment for drug addiction. Making the drug intervention Act. Only around 4 per cent. of premises have a 24-hour programme part of the criminal justice system has been licence, and more than 80 per cent. of those are shops the biggest and most important contributory factor in and hotels. The average closing time is just 21 minutes that. later than it was before the Act, and 56 per cent. of all I have not mentioned drugs before because I have licensed premises still close at 11 pm, compared with only a certain amount of time to deliver this speech and 68 per cent. under the old regime. the Bill contains nothing specifically about drug legislation, The 2008 review of the Licensing Act 2003 found but it is a very important issue. that, since the new legislation was introduced, serious violent crime at night was down by 5 per cent. and less (Ashford) (Con): I am genuinely not serious wounding was down by 3 per cent. We can have sure that the right hon. Gentleman meant it, but he said a debate about alcohol, but we cannot say that the that drug use in this country is lower than it has ever problems with alcohol-fuelled violence began with the been. Did he mean that? 2003 Act.

Alan Johnson: Yes. The British crime survey puts it at Keith Vaz: The Home Secretary is right. The Home 10.1 per cent. of the population, which is the lowest Affairs Committee report earlier this year did not lay level since records began. I wish the hon. Gentleman the blame on the Licensing Act, but we did say that the would look at the statistics in the British crime survey cheap availability of alcohol in supermarkets results in occasionally, as they might explain some of the problems people getting tanked up before they go out on a that arise in these debates. Saturday night and start buying alcohol in pubs and clubs. Will he therefore consider our recommendation for a floor price for supermarket alcohol sales? Damian Green: But the lowest ever? Alan Johnson: Yes, we will consider that recommendation, Alan Johnson: Since records began. and the report to which my right hon. Friend refers was a valuable contribution. That is why we asked Sheffield Mr. Burrowes: Will the Home Secretary give way? university to conduct the research into the problem. In my previous guise at the Department of Health, we Alan Johnson: I will, for one little millisecond. commissioned further work to enable us to look at the issue. However, he knows that the Licensing Act 2003 Mr. Burrowes: I am ever so grateful for the Home has done many things to address alcohol abuse, including Secretary’s generosity, but does he disagree with the ending the voluntary code for industry and introducing report from the European Monitoring Centre For Drugs a statutory code. I think that that will make an enormous and Drug Addiction? It compared drug use in 28 countries contribution. in Europe and revealed that the UK has the highest proportion of cocaine use among adults, and among Mr. David Chaytor (Bury, North) (Lab): Will my 15 and 16-year olds. That finding is supported by the right hon. Friend give way? UK Drug Policy Commission report, which says that we have the highest problem of drug use. Alan Johnson: I shall give way once more, and then I am going to conclude. Alan Johnson: I do not disagree with that at all, but my point is that the level is the lowest since records Mr. Chaytor: I am very grateful. The evidence shows began. I cannot argue that it is the lowest ever, given that the cost to the NHS, let alone the criminal justice that no one recorded it before the previous Government system, of excessive alcohol abuse is analogous to that introduced the legislation— of excessive tobacco consumption. What is the argument against introducing a ban on alcohol advertising, to follow the very successful ban on tobacco advertising? Damian Green: But you said that it was the lowest ever Alan Johnson: We have looked at all the options and did consider that, but we live in a free society and the Alan Johnson: No one knows what the level was difference between alcohol and tobacco is that there is a before we started recording it. The hon. Gentleman level of alcohol consumption which, far from being intervenes from a sedentary position, but he has been in detrimental to health, can be beneficial. It depends on the House long enough to know that a statistical argument where one draws the line. is based on when those statistics began to be compiled. I was also asked about alcohol. The British crime Mr. Walker: They said that about tobacco! survey was introduced under the previous Government and it is the most robust and accurate measure of crime. Alan Johnson: The hon. Gentleman says, “You can It shows that alcohol-fuelled crime is down by a third. say that about tobacco.” The link with the Licensing Act 2003 is fictitious. There is, of course, a link between excessive drinking and Mr. Walker: That is what they used to say. violence, and I understand that it is a very important issue that we have still to address in full. One fifth of all Alan Johnson: If they used to say that about tobacco, violent crime takes place in or around pubs and clubs, they do not do so any more. All eminent researchers and nearly half of that occurs between Friday evening into the matter say that it would not be possible even to and Monday morning. start to go down the route of instituting a prohibition 583 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 584

[Alan Johnson] unlawful to hold these records indefinitely. There followed an extensive period of consultation and deliberation. In system such as existed in America, because alcohol is in determining what is proportionate, as the Bill seeks to a different category from tobacco when it comes to do, we must be guided by the most recent scientific health effects. evidence, the professional opinion of the police, and the reasonable expectations of the public that they should Mr. Frank Field: Will the Home Secretary give way? be protected against crime, and that there should be justice for them and their families if that protection Alan Johnson: I will give way to my right hon. Friend. fails. These elements must be balanced against the Mr. Field: The Home Secretary said earlier that he understandable concerns of those who have never been was going to give way for “a” last time, so perhaps this convicted of any crime about the retention of their is “the” last time. Before he completes his remarks, will DNA profile. Although not required to by the European he find time to report the good news about the progress Court judgment, we took the decision that all DNA that the Government are making in breaking the link samples should be destroyed after six months, once they between coming to this country to work and automatically have been converted—[Interruption.] Six months. I wish gaining British citizenship? That issue very much concerns Members on the Opposition Front Bench would listen our core voters. more closely. The DNA sample—the swab—must be destroyed within six months. That was not a mandate Alan Johnson: I will, and this is my only opportunity from the European Court, but is something that we to do so. People are very welcome to come to this decided to do. country to study or work and to contribute to our culture and economy, but it is crucial to break the link That six months gives the chance to convert the that means that they can become British citizens if they sample into the 20 numbers that form the DNA profile. stay here long enough. That has to end, and a points-based [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Ashford (Damian citizenship system, along the lines of the points-based Green) asks from a sedentary position, “So what?” immigration system, can ensure that being a citizen of Many people are concerned that some of their human this country means more than simply being here for a tissue will be retained. All the arguments that we know certain amount of time. That is a very important change, in the House from the Human Fertilisation and Embryology and I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend and those Bill raise very real concerns. It is important to stress other colleagues who have been pushing it for some that it is not the tissue, but the tissue converted into the time. 20 numbers that forms the DNA profile—and I say that The Bill proposes a new framework for the retention once again, for the information of the Opposition Front- of DNA records. There can be no question, I hope, that Bench team. the development of DNA fingerprinting by the British The evidence that we have, reinforced by the responses scientist Sir Alec Jeffreys has revolutionised the fight to the public consultation, shows that there is a strong against crime. The retention of DNA records by the case for the retention of the DNA profiles of those who police has been critical in solving many high-profile and are arrested but not convicted, and that there is a link horrific crimes. It is unlikely that Mark Dixie, the between arrest for a previous offence and future offending. murderer of Sally Anne Bowman, would ever have been It also shows that after six years, the probability of found, had his DNA profile not been recorded following re-arrest for this group is no higher than for the rest of his arrest for involvement in a pub brawl from which he the population. [Interruption.] Hon. Members ask what was released without charge. Take also the case of about Scotland. Scotland did not have the same information Abdul Azad. He was arrested for violent disorder at his to hand when its decision to go for three years was Birmingham home in February 2005. He had a DNA taken, with the option of a further two years. I do not sample taken and was released without charge. In July 2005, know what led to that decision. What I know is that a just five months later, a stranger rape occurred in Stafford, retention period of three years would leave a larger 25 miles away. There were no clues until the skin beneath percentage of people with a higher hazard rate who the victim’s fingernails was profiled and found to match would commit crime in the future than would a retention Abdul Azad’s DNA. period of six years. This is an argument about statistics, civil liberties and The difference between us is not about people being good policing, but fundamentally it is an argument innocent until proven guilty. I heard the hon. Member about people and their requirement for justice and the for Epsom and Ewell saying that on the “Today” enormous deterrent effect of DNA profiling, as well it programme. Two Opposition parties propose keeping being such a valuable tool in solving crime. It is unlikely on the database people who are innocent until proven that Sean Hodgson, who was wrongfully convicted of guilty. They propose that as well. The difference is that murdering and raping Teresa de Simone in 1982, would they say it should just be for serious crimes that they have been cleared, had not DNA analysis completed in have been arrested but not charged for, as in Scotland, 2008 shown that he was not the killer, or that Michael and not for any other crimes. The research shows that Shirley, who spent 16 years in prison for the rape and there is no difference in the probability of reoffending, murder of Linda Cook, would have been released in whether a serious or non-serious crime was previously 2003. This about protecting the innocent, as well as committed. The evidence that we have, reinforced by the finding the guilty. responses to the public consultation, suggest that six Almost exactly a year ago, the European Court of years is the right period. Human Rights ruled that although holding the DNA Under the framework proposed by the Bill, the DNA records of those who were not convicted was justifiable profiles of all those convicted of crimes will be held under the European convention on human rights, it was indefinitely. That is not controversial. The Bill also gives 585 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 586 the police the powers to take DNA samples from people 3.28 pm who were convicted of a serious violent and sexual offence in the past, before DNA was routinely taken, Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): I welcome this opportunity and previous offenders who are returning from overseas. to discuss the proposals put forward in this year’s We believe that this will bring justice for victims and Gracious Address. My hon. Friends have already pointed their families by solving more cold cases. Once again, I out that the Address is little more than an opportunity do not believe that that is controversial. It is supported for electioneering, and the Government have admitted on all sides of the House. as much themselves. Much of the legislation stands little, if any, chance of making it on to the statute book, However, the records of adults arrested but not convicted and is heading inexorably towards the wash-up and a will be retained for six years, not 12 years as originally soapy consensus. That is not necessarily a bad thing at proposed, regardless of the seriousness of the crimes this stage of a Parliament, but we have seen it all before, for which they were arrested. The records of under-18s too often. convicted of serious crimes will be held indefinitely, but There is to be yet another criminal justice Bill—the for those convicted of minor offences, if it is a first 28th, on our count, since 1997—which throws together conviction, the record will be kept for five years. Only if an essentially random selection of measures as diverse it is a second conviction will that record be held indefinitely. as the DNA database, about which we have just heard in It would be disproportionate if a young person who some detail from the Home Secretary, domestic violence, commits a minor offence, which they deeply regret, gang injunctions, antisocial behaviour, wheel-clamping, were to have that crime held against them for the rest of mobile phones in prisons, and air weapons. This is their lives. legislation by grapeshot. Never mind the quality, feel For under-18s who are arrested but not convicted, for the width. both serious crimes and minor offences, their records will be retained for three years. For 16 and 17-year-olds Astonishingly, the proposed Crime and Security Bill entering the peak offending years, their records will be will amend an Act that received Royal Assent only retained for six years. 13 days ago. This is swift revision even by the Government’s prolix standards. I do not know what the Bill team at There is one exception to the six-year rule for adults the Home Office have been up to, but they are clearly who are arrested but not convicted. The House will be working overtime. In all this helter-skelter activity, and aware that national security investigations, including with the Home Office displaying all the symptoms of counter-terrorism cases, can go on for many years. In attention deficit disorder, where is the strategy? What some cases investigations have lasted for as long as are the Government trying to do? Are Ministers merely 25 years. Setting a six-year time frame in such cases indulging in inane activity, like a hamster on a treadmill? would be potentially damaging for national security. I see in this frenetic energy no guiding purpose and no The Bill will therefore allow the retention of DNA sense of direction. Our criminal justice system is crying profiles beyond the six-year point in these exceptional out for an approach based on the evidence of what cases. Fewer than 1,000 such records exist, and under works, yet, once again, we have a Bill that proclaims the Bill’s proposals, each case would be reviewed every populist objectives, regardless, in many cases, of the two years. evidence and bereft of strategy. Although under current legislation those who seek to have their DNA profile removed from the database may The evidence suggests that prison should be for serious apply to the chief constable to have their personal data offenders and serial offences, not an everyday response removed, chief constables are under no obligation to to low-level thieving and other minor crime. Yet, looking fulfil such a request. The measures proposed by the at the big picture, we desperately need a shift from Crime and Security Bill will place a legal duty on the prison to other, more effective measures to stop reoffending. chief constable to remove the DNA records in circumstances The reoffending rate for young men on their first prison where the arrest was unlawful, the taking of the biometric sentence is 92 per cent. Prisons are just colleges of data was unlawful, the arrest was based on mistaken crime, where the young learn better the techniques that identity or if there were other circumstances relating to we would rather they did not learn at all. the arrest or the alleged offender that would make it appropriate to destroy the material. David T.C. Davies: Does the hon. Gentleman not I believe these proposals strike the right balance accept, however, that all the young men in prison have between the need to protect the public and the rights of already been through all those community and non- the individual, while being informed by the best available custodial sentences that he is referring to, and that none evidence. The proposals in the Crime and Security Bill, of them have worked, which is why they end up back in along with action to tackle youth unemployment, and front of the courts and in prison? At least they are off the legally binding commitment to eradicating child the streets. poverty, will help to make this country a safer and fairer place. I commend the Queen’s Speech to the House. Chris Huhne: I do not accept the hon. Member’s point. In fact, in many cases, there is not an adequately Several hon. Members rose— graded response to criminal or antisocial behaviour, Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Although I do not particularly among young people. I intend to return to wish to curtail the cut and thrust of debate in the that point later. Chamber by way of interventions, I remind hon. Members Prisons are full of drug addicts, who should be treated that the overall time for the debate is limited and there is elsewhere, and people with mental health problems a time limit on Back-Bench contributions. I am still whose circumstances are likely to be aggravated by their optimistic that as many as possible will be able to make prison experience. Adopting a problem-centred approach their contribution. to crime, in which we actually did what worked to cut 587 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 588

[Chris Huhne] Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): My hon. Friend mentions policies that are based on the evidence of crime, would do far more to prevent crime and to detect what works, and probation. Does he agree, therefore, criminals so that they could be caught. That would that the Government’s embarkation on cuts in probation provide a far greater deterrent than just being even funding and staff is folly, when, for example, the intensive tougher on the tiny minority of criminals whose case alternative to custody that Derbyshire probation service ends up in a court conviction. If we take into account is piloting costs one fifth of a custodial sentence and is the British crime survey figures and those for business more successful at preventing reoffending? crime, plus those for people under the age recorded by the BCS, probably only one in 100 cases ends up in a Chris Huhne: I am grateful for that intervention, court conviction. People are therefore unlikely to be because my hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw impressed by posturing on tougher punishments. In attention to the pilot in Derbyshire, where the results fact, so small is the probability of being caught that it are encouraging and, indeed, the reoffending rates are would make precious little difference if we were to as he describes. However, I agree with the Home Secretary promise far tougher punishments. that it is important to have more police on the front line—if only the Government would take his apparent This is why we need a new approach, with a much advice. We need a further 10,000 police officers on the greater emphasis on detection. We also need more front line. We are still under-policed when compared prevention, involving easy measures such as improving with other leading industrial democracies, but we need outside lighting, alarms and window locks. We need better policing, too. more detection, to ensure that criminals face justice. The prevention aspect of that agenda alone provides One of the biggest disappointments of the Gracious the main reason why crime has fallen further and faster Speech and the Crime and Security Bill is that they in Liberal Democrat-controlled council areas than in represent yet another missed opportunity by the either Labour or Tory-controlled areas—[Interruption.] Government to show some real commitment to police The Home Secretary laughs, but, given that his own city reform. The National Policing Improvement Agency of Hull and many other major cities outside London should be given a wider remit so that it can commission are now under outright Liberal Democrat control, we research into any measures that cut crime, including not are no longer making our point based on a small only better policing methods, but measures outside the sample. police. Chief officers should have greater discretion to manage their force, decide key staff changes and reward Alan Johnson: I apologise for laughing, but it was specialism. funny. One of the reasons that crime and disorder in The police contract—lifetime employment, now for Hull is really coming down as a result of the terrific 35 years, a single point of entry and pay linked to efforts of the chief constable is the extra police who seniority rather than to talent or effort—should be were put into the city centre by the previous Labour urgently reviewed, as successive reports from inspectors administration before the Lib Dems took over. All that of constabulary have pointed out. It was right to make the Lib Dems have taken away is our free school meals a bonfire of the central targets and controls that have service, which we very much want back. They have been introduced since 2002, but it was surely wrong for contributed nothing to the reduction in crime. the Home Office not to cut back on the data requirements Chris Huhne: I am astonished that the Home Secretary and red tape that went with that central control regime. thinks that free school meals are relevant to crime It was surely wrong, too, to fail to put in place stronger figures. Let me give him a practical example of what I local governance arrangements to pick up where Whitehall’s am saying. I have visited a number of Liberal Democrat meddling left off. councils—as no doubt he has; perhaps he should visit Chief officers must be responsible for operations, more—to see what work they are doing on the prevention they must be independent and they must be operationally agenda. Let us take Liverpool as an example. There, the independent, but strategy and priorities must be determined Liberal Democrat council has installed alley gates, which by strong and representative police authorities that have the enormous merit of preventing burglars from speak for their people throughout the force area. There popping into backyards and stealing things from people’s should be better consultation at local, basic command homes. I am not saying that alley gating is the only unit or operational command unit levels, because that factor, but that, along with policing, has had a dramatic matters; but the real locus of accountability is where the effect. money is decided, at police authority level, and only Since the peak of crime, crime in Liberal Democrat more powerful accountability will drive up policing council areas has fallen by more than the national standards towards the best. average, at 20 per cent. Before we get any chortling from Detection rates, even for violent crime, vary from Conservative Members, I should say that, on crime, 34 per cent. in the worst performing force, the Metropolitan Conservative areas have performed less well than the police, to 67 per cent. in the best performing force in national average, with rates falling 16 per cent. since the England and Wales. That is not an acceptable variation, peak. Let us look at violent crime: down 6 per cent. in and the public should not accept it. However, the Conservative areas, but down by more than twice as Government have run away from the debate at the first much—by 14 per cent.—in Liberal Democrat-council whiff of gunshot from their own, Labour, councillors, areas. We are talking not about small samples, but and the official Opposition have proposed a system that about quite substantial areas, and what matters is what makes strong men blench. One elected sheriff, in a works. We need a big, strategic shift from prison to multi-ethnic and diverse area such as Greater Manchester policing and probation, because catching more people or the west midlands, would be a disaster, as the sheriff who commit crime is a greater deterrent than more would be elected while ignoring the vast majority of his harshly punishing the few whom we do catch. or her voters. That way lies insensitive policing, random 589 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 590 stop-and-search and the Brixton riots. Without such The Labour Government’s inadequate proposals on reform, the measures heralded in the Gracious Speech the DNA database are entirely typical of their approach are just tinkering around the edges. We need stronger to crime and civil liberties. Ministers have ignored the local governance, but it has to be right and it has to be evidence of what really works to cut crime, but they representative. have still managed to trample civil liberties underfoot. Even where the Government are faced inexorably It is shocking, for example, that only one in five hospitals with the need for reform because of court judgments, is providing the anonymised data that allow police to they manage to botch their response. Let us look at the target violent hotspots and cut woundings by 40 per DNA database. Of course, DNA should be used in cent. In the case of Cardiff, that is clearly shown not in criminal investigations, no one denies that; and it will anecdotal evidence of the sort that the Home Secretary go on being used. Forensics should be better supported gave us on the DNA database, but in peer-reviewed, than Ministers’ reorganisation of the service suggests. solid academic evidence of the type that he unfortunately However, the Government’s proposal—a six-year period proved rather too dismissive of in respect of the Advisory holding DNA even of innocent people—is still an Council on the Misuse of Drugs. extraordinary response to the European Court of Human The reality is that Ministers repeatedly come here Rights and to the age-old principle of British justice with proposals that scythe away at the right to protest, that we are innocent until proven guilty. Just under the right to know how people have died at the hands of 1 million innocent people—I think that the Chairman the state, the right to jury trial, the right to express of the Home Affairs Committee, who is not in his place, oneself in a public place, the right to know what one is said that the figure is 750,000, but my information from charged with when detained for up to 28 days, and the a parliamentary answer of 15 October is that it is right to leave one’s own home if a Minister decides 986,000—now have their DNA on the database, yet otherwise in a control order. Rarely has so much that is 2.3 million people who were convicted before DNA was so precious been sacrificed so enthusiastically on the routinely collected do not have their DNA on the database. altar of ineffectiveness. No wonder the effectiveness of the database is steadily That death of civil liberties by a thousand small cuts falling. is precisely why Liberal Democrats have put forward a Liberal Democrats favour instead a simple rule: if coherent and comprehensive Bill for repealing intrusions someone is convicted, their DNA will remain on the into hard-won freedoms. It is called the Freedom Bill. It database; if they are innocent, it will not. By contrast, proposes a reduction in the period of detention without the Government’s illiberal proposal is likely to be struck charge from 28 days to 14 days. It the abolition down again by the European Court, as it is not a of the illiberal and discredited control orders regime— proportionate response to a problem, and it still intrudes which, according to a recent front-page article in The Daily on the right to privacy guarded in the European convention Telegraph, the Conservatives oppose. I was surprised to on human rights. see that, given that whenever the measure has been up Alan Johnson: The hon. Gentleman just said that if for annual renewal they have repeatedly refused to join someone is guilty and convicted, they are on the database, us in the Lobby to show their opposition. but if someone is innocent, they are not on the database. Our draft Bill also advocates renegotiating the unbalanced I thought that he supported the Scottish system whereby US-UK extradition treaty, with particular relevance to if someone is arrested but not charged for a serious the current case of Gary McKinnon, who suffers from offence they remain on the database. Is this a change in Asperger’s syndrome; scrapping the illiberal and expensive his approach? identity cards scheme; and rolling back the surveillance state by curbing the use of the Regulation of Investigatory Chris Huhne: The Home Secretary will have noticed Powers Act 2000, rather than removing the checks on that at our party conference—I note that we are a party police use of that Act, as the Conservatives propose. that determines these things democratically—we voted Only by putting together the cumulative losses of freedoms very firmly for the view that innocence and guilt should can we dramatise the effects of this Government since be the determining criterion for whether someone is on 1997, and indeed of the last Conservative Administration. the database. That has the great merit of simplicity and The Freedom Bill is a key priority for us. of being understood in line with our traditions in this country. I turn to the stronger powers to tackle antisocial behaviour that have been suggested. It is a real and Chris Grayling: It is important for the House to pressing problem across the country, as we all know understand where the Liberal Democrats are positioned from our constituencies. It can blight people’s lives to on this matter, which is clearly going to be a matter of live near or next to a family from hell. We will examine debate in the next few weeks, so can the hon. Gentleman in detail the measures that the Government have brought clarify his position? Is he saying that the Scottish system forward in the Crime and Security Bill, and we will deal is not the right one? I would have anticipated his supporting with them on their merits. Again, however, the strategy it, as he has appeared to do so in the past. Has that is far from clear. position changed? We would instead introduce new community justice Chris Huhne: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the panels and positive behaviour orders and increase the Scottish system was introduced while the Liberal Democrats use of acceptable behaviour contracts, while reserving were in government in Scotland, and we were very antisocial behaviour orders as a last resort. There is a happy with it. In fact, there is very little difference real problem with ASBOs at present, because they are between the system that I have suggested and the Scottish honoured mostly in the breach. They are not used as a system. As a matter of clarity, it would make things last resort, and they are not enforced properly. In response much simpler if we applied the simple rule of innocence to the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies), versus guilt. who mentioned custody, ASBOs should be part of a 591 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 592

[Chris Huhne] points-based immigration system, giving greater weight to skills and regions that need migrants and less to graduated response to a problem rather than something those that do not. that we go to early in the process, which merely brings them into disrepute. We would also pilot a youth volunteer Chris Grayling: With respect, I do not think I have force, to make engagement with the community more heard such a load of complete nonsense for a long time. attractive to young people and to bridge the divide Will the hon. Gentleman explain that? How can he have between young and old people. Activities could include the a regional points-based system? If there is a quota for restoration of sports facilities or environmental projects, the north-east and people are allowed to move there, providing people with skills for the future. what stops them emigrating there and then moving to I turn to immigration, which was an important feature London, which may be full up? of the remarks of the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) in particular. The Government Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman really must stop have squandered opportunity upon opportunity to displaying his ignorance of matters within his portfolio. reform what is a broken system. The draft Immigration If he had actually spent any time studying systems that Bill is the ninth immigration Bill since 1997. If they are based on the points-based system that we apparently were going to simplify the system all along, why have copied, he would know that they operate in Australia they used eight Acts to make it so complicated that the and Canada. What happens is that a visa is issued that long-awaited and much lauded simplification Bill is now applies to a particular geographical area. only ready to be published in draft? Their inability to The hon. Gentleman may be aware that 192 million tackle the issues involved simply beggars belief. people come in and go out of this country every year The debate on immigration should be based on the and that the most effective way of controlling illegal evidence of benefit to this country, not on scaremongering immigration is through employers. The system is very about British jobs for British workers or on whipping simple. As they do in Australia and Canada, we ensure up yet more anti-immigration rhetoric. The abolition of that an employer has the visa papers of an employee. If exit checks by the Conservative Government, followed they do not entitle that employee to work in that region, up by the Labour Government, means that we still have that is illegal immigration just as much as not having a no idea how many people are in this country illegally. visa at all. The system is very simple and it works. He Nearly 2 million short-term visas are issued every year could tell me that people will live in Southampton and to students and others, but we still cannot check whether work in Edinburgh, but that is highly unlikely. The main they have been respected by seeing whether the people point is that the visa applies to the workplace, which who have been issued with them have left the country, as is—he can talk to the UK Border Agency about this—the the UK Border Agency is still only able to check 60 per most important way of enforcement. cent. of exits from this country. The Liberal Democrats would immediately reinstate exit checks, so that we Mrs. Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): May I give the could at least grasp the extent of the problem and hon. Gentleman a scenario? Suppose a company in ensure that short-term visas were respected. We would Eastleigh that employs migrant workers has a branch create a new national border force with police powers, office in Edinburgh, to which it would like to transfer so that our borders were properly controlled. two of those workers. How would he police a system which, effectively, is almost about internal house arrest I did not hear anything from the Conservative Benches, in parts of the country? It is a bizarre suggestion. or indeed the Labour Benches, about the benefits of legal migration. With a quarter of the doctors and half the nurses in London having been born overseas, the Chris Huhne: It is not internal house arrest at all NHS would collapse without migrant workers. Migration because it applies not to where people live, but to where must be able to respond to the diverse needs of different they work. The key point is that it is a work visa. That is regions and industries, and a blunt cap on immigration what happens in both Australia and Canada and, actually, of the sort proposed by the Conservatives—without the right hon. Lady should be aware that it happens in any number attached to it, we note—would frankly be a this country too. I agree that the Government whom she Soviet-style response from a dynamic market economy has supported do not enforce visas adequately and that such as that of the UK. Would we really refuse to allow they do not do enough checks of employers. There have Manchester City to sign Robinho at the transfer window been far too few prosecutions of employers—fewer because a cap had been reached, or refuse to allow some than 200 since 1997 on the latest figures—but it is City of London firm to hire someone who could help through those and checks on employers that we enforce create jobs for British people by bringing a skill that was the existing system. Exactly the same thing would apply not already available to us? That is just simple populism, under a regional points-based system. not sensible policy. The home affairs aspects of this Queen’s Speech are North of the border in Scotland, even Conservatives nothing new: yet more legislation, thrown together in a want more migration and a larger population. In the haphazard manner and designed only to attract headlines south-east of England, by contrast, we are talking of rather than tackle meaningful reform an any issue, from desalination plants to provide fresh water, which clearly policing to civil liberties, immigration and the DNA shows that we are reaching the environmental limits of database. This Government have created 3,600 new population density, because such plants require fossil criminal offences since 1997 and we are still counting—such fuels to heat the water to evaporate the salt. criminal offences as the creation of a nuclear explosion, as if murder and criminal damage were not enough to The Liberal Democrats would ensure that immigration meet the contingency. We have seen sheaves upon sheaves works in the interests of the UK by creating a regional of new Bills. If law was the answer to problems, we 593 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 594 would have none. However, law is rarely the only answer, The convention on trafficking has been in effect since and sometimes not even a partial one. It is high time the February, and the monitoring system is now up and Government concentrated on evidence and delivery rather running. I seek an assurance from the Government that than new Bills. If they did so, Britain would be a better they will continue to ensure that the monitoring place with a substantially lower crime rate. mechanism—the Group of Experts on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings or GRETA—is adequately 3.55 pm resourced and that they will legislate or otherwise act John Austin (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): Today on its findings on the UK’s implementation of the marks the 10th anniversary of the formal proclamation convention. by the United Nations of 25 November as international There are conflicting statistics on trafficking but we day for the elimination of violence against women. know that thousands are trafficked for sexual exploitation, Violence against women and girls takes many forms the majority of whom are women. However, it is not and affects all our communities. I acknowledge that the only trafficked women who are forced or coerced into Government have done much to raise awareness and to prostitution, which is another example of violence against protect victims of domestic violence, and much in the women. Most prostituted women have been abused, area of prevention, as the Home Secretary outlined and most of them are tricked into prostitution usually earlier. I do not wish to delay the House by quoting by men who groom them, get them addicted or use their more statistics, except for one that relates to the different power over them in other ways. That is why I welcome way in which women and men may experience violence. the historic vote in the other place on 3 November to Men are more likely to be victims of violent crime than back the Government and make it a crime for men to women, but in domestic violence, in which the vast demand and pay for sex with trafficked women or those majority of victims are women, the victims have been forced or coerced to work as prostitutes. In that historic assaulted on average 35 times before reporting those vote, we have moved from the supply side to the demand crimes to the police. side by insisting that men, not women, should bear I welcome the Home Secretary’s statement of support responsibility for the abuse of prostituted women. But for the white ribbon campaign, as worn by many right that vote will be effective only if the law is used. Passing hon. and hon. Members today. I commend the campaign, the law is not the same as implementing it. It will be up especially on its efforts to involve men in tackling the to the Government to ensure that the police and magistrates issue of domestic violence. In a Parliament in which make it work. women are under-represented, it is vitally important I do not want to comment substantially on the that male parliamentarians get involved in this campaign. circumstances of the Dr. Magnanti and Belle de Jour The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, saga, but I agree with Object’s campaigns co-ordinator, on which I serve, is persevering with its commitment to Anna van Heeswijk, writing in the Evening Standard, promote the drafting of a future Council of Europe that the one voice that has been conspicuously absent is convention to prevent and combat violence against that of the silent and silenced majority of women in women, including domestic violence. In adopting a prostitution who do not experience the sex industry as binding legal instrument, the Council of Europe would harmless fun. I share her view that the glamorous way send out a strong political signal. I hope that the in which it has been presented in the media tends Government will support such a move in the Committee “to normalise what for the majority constitutes abuse and exploitation” of Ministers. As the vice-chair of the sub-committee on trafficking in human beings of the Parliamentary Assembly and of the Council of Europe, I welcome the Government’s “grooms women and girls into thinking that selling their bodies is decision, a year ago, to ratify the European convention an empowering career choice and tells men and boys that buying on action against trafficking in human beings. Earlier women for sexual use is acceptable”. this week, the Joint Committee on Human Rights, It is not. And we should state firmly that it is not. together with the hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Steen), Another gross form of violence against women is who was in his place earlier, visited the human rights female genital mutilation. I congratulate the Government trafficking centre in Sheffield. I know that the future on having introduced the Female Genital Mutilation location and legal status of the centre is under discussion. Act 2003, which is intended to help prevent that Whatever happens in those discussions, the corporate unacceptable and barbaric practice. identity and the collective wisdom in the Sheffield unit should be retained. David T.C. Davies: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, I recall that part of the Government’s initial reluctance since the Act was introduced, not one person has been to ratify the convention was the argument from immigration convicted of an offence under it and that only one case officials that a victim-based approach could undermine has been investigated? Is it not a disgrace that the Act immigration controls—the so-called pull factor. At the was passed but no real action has been taken? time, the JCHR argued that it was not credible to suggest that a woman would voluntarily submit to Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. I indeterminate sexual slavery of the most brutal kind for remind the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead the purpose of obtaining UK residency. Thankfully, (John Austin) that, if he has given way, he must not that view prevailed and was accepted by the Government. remain on his feet. But I fear that immigration officials have not substantially changed their views and for that reason if, come April, the human rights trafficking centre is not to be a free- John Austin: I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker. standing agency, it would in my view be better and more The hon. Gentleman anticipated my comments. There appropriate for it to be located with the Serious Organised is substantial evidence to suggest that hundreds of girls Crime Agency rather than with the UK Border Agency. and young women are taken from this country every 595 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 596

[John Austin] I share the concern of the Children’s Commissioner and the commissioner for human rights at the Council year for such abuse to be carried out elsewhere. The of Europe that too many of our young people are Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend incarcerated or locked up in this country. Next door to the Member for Watford (Claire Ward) told the House Belmarsh, we are about to open the youth offenders that there have been no prosecutions or convictions for institution Isis, which some people are calling “Son of female genital mutilation. The Government have appointed Belmarsh”. Less than a mile away from that institution, a cross-Government co-ordinator to provide a single there are two superb projects: the youth awareness point of contact for work on that issue, and I hope that project and the archway project, which have a commendable a Minister can come before the House, in the not-too-distant record in diverting young people away from a life of future, to report progress on the matter. crime. However, such projects are struggling for resources, while we pour more and more money into locking up I wish to make one other reference to the Council of young people for no positive purpose. I hope that we Europe. As the Parliamentary Assembly’s rapporteur will see a transfer of funding into some of those more on honour-based violence, I would like to thank my positive ways of working with young people. right hon. Friend the Home Secretary for the assistance that his officials gave to me in commenting on the draft My final point relates to the tragedy that occurred a text of my report before publication. The report’s fortnight ago on Tavy bridge, which was the scene of recommendations have been adopted unanimously by the fatal stabbing of a young man called Moses Nteyoho. the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. We have to tackle the problem of knife crime. Projects Most of the recommendations are already in place and such as the youth awareness project in Thamesmead have been implemented in the UK, but I would welcome and the archway project are successfully doing just that Home Office support in the Committee of Ministers for and diverting young people away from gang culture. My the widest possible implementation of the recommendations hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South (Ms Butler), on honour-based violence throughout the 47 member who was recently appointed as the Minister states. with responsibility for young citizens and youth engagement, recently visited those projects and was greatly impressed. On the issue of forced marriages, the Government are I hope that she will report to other Ministers and to be congratulated on the Forced Marriage (Civil Cabinet members on how such schemes can be supported Protection) Act 2007, which came into force last year. and promoted. There is a fine line between forced marriage and so-called honour crime, as was shown in the brave testimony of Charlton Athletic community trust has involved the Dr. Abedin, a woman doctor of Bangladeshi origin parents of Rob Knox, who was fatally stabbed in Old practising in London, who gave evidence to our committee. Bexley and Sidcup. Charlton Athletic won the community She had been held captive in Bangladesh and forced to club of the year award because of its “Street Violence marry.Thanks to the legislation passed by this Government Ruins Lives” campaign, which has brought the club and and this Parliament, and with the co-operation between the community together to engage with young people. I the UK and Bangladeshi authorities, she has been able invite the Ministers to come down and see Charlton to return to the UK, where she is trying to rebuild her Athletic community trust’s action on fighting knife life. crime. I would like to say a brief word on constitutional reform. Some 40 years ago, I chaired the British Youth 4.8 pm Council and was involved in a successful campaign to Mr. Shailesh Vara (North-West Cambridgeshire) (Con): reduce the voting age to 18. A few weeks ago, some hon. May I say what a pleasure it is to follow a thought-provoking Members were in the Gallery of the Chamber when the speech by the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead UK Youth Parliament met and voted to take up as its (John Austin)? campaign the right to vote at 16. I support it in that endeavour and shall quote a speech in the debate by a In 1997, the Government came into power on a huge young man called James Evans: wave of expectation—expectation that was based on huge promises. Given that the Gracious Speech makes “At 16, we can marry our MP, we can sleep with our MP and even more promises, we should reflect a little on the we can have children with our MP. We can sign up in preparation promises made in the past. To that extent, I will continue for fighting and potentially dying for our MP. And suddenly we are not mature enough to vote for them”. the theme started by the shadow Home Secretary. The Government’s biggest promise was that they would be I thought that those were wise words from a young, tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime. potential parliamentarian. However, although the Government claim that crime is You will know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I am the down, the reality is that violent crime is up, gun crime is hon. Member who represents Her Majesty’s Prison up, knife crime is up and drug offences are up—by Belmarsh. Although famed for being a maximum security nearly 80 per cent. As we heard earlier, Britain has now prison, which it is, Belmarsh is also a local prison. I become the cocaine capital of Europe. share the view of the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris As for antisocial behaviour, all three Labour party Huhne) that there are far too many people, and particularly manifestos—in 1997, 2001 and 2005—spoke of dealing young people, who are in prison inappropriately for less with the problem. If ever there was an admission of serious crimes and for whom it serves no positive purpose. failure, it was the reference in the Gracious Speech to When we discuss the new Crime and Security Bill, I introducing legislation to tackle antisocial behaviour. hope that we will see more resources diverted into The tragedy is that, in the intervening years, so many restorative justice schemes and non-custodial, community- people—often some of the poorest and most vulnerable based projects. in our community—have gone through so much suffering 597 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 598 and misery. No one doubts that the 3.9 million incidences Let us consider what actually happens to prisoners of antisocial behaviour recorded in England and Wales when they go to prison. A new prisoner waits a few last year are a gross underestimate. People simply do weeks to get on a training course. When he or she finally not report these sorts of incidences because they are gets on that course, they are likely to be moved to worried about the consequences for themselves and another prison halfway through that course—without their families from the thugs who engage in such antisocial finishing it. Then, at the new prison, they start the behaviour. whole process again, and wait a few weeks to get on a course and so on, so the cycle continues and the training Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) (Lab): I was is never completed. No wonder prisoners leave prison a member of the Standing Committee that considered still unable to read or write, or to have a useful trade the first legislation on antisocial behaviour. As I recall that could help them contribute to society, rather than it, the hon. Gentleman’s party would not accept that being dependent on society or offending again. It was there was such a thing as antisocial behaviour or that it hardly surprising that when my hon. Friend the Member needed legislation. Will he therefore deal with his party’s for Reading, East (Mr. Wilson) tabled a written question road to Damascus conversion of accepting not just that on the amount of education received in prisons, he was antisocial behaviour exists, but that it is something that told on 5 November, at column 1212W of Hansard, that should be dealt with by law? prisoners at Reading prison receive less than an hour of education a day. Mr. Vara: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving me the opportunity to remind her that after 12 and a The drug rehabilitation programme has a similar half years in government, she and her colleagues should pattern to that for training. A prisoner waits for several perhaps address the promises they have made to the weeks to get on a course, and when he finally gets on it, British public, rather than conversations in Committee he is moved to another prison. He waits for a few weeks Rooms in this place. Had they honoured and fulfilled again, gets on a drug rehabilitation course, and moves those promises, perhaps the tone of this debate might on to another prison yet again before the course is have been a little different. completed. At the in 2002, Tony Blair It is not only prisoners who are moved from one said: prison to another but, frequently, governors. It cannot “Those who assault teachers or nurses should go to jail.” be right that the average turnover time for a governor in No doubt Mr. Blair received rapturous applause from a prison is a mere 18 months. We must have a system all those in the hall when he said that, but we should go in which governors stay in a prison long enough to put to our hospitals today and see how many hospital staff in place initiatives that will be good for the inmates, and are prepared to applaud the Government. We should long enough to see those initiatives through. Given the ask the staff about the 55,000 physical assaults on present circumstances in prisons, it is hardly surprising hospital staff last year alone, and we should ask them if that the incidence of self-harm in both prisons and the promises of jail for those perpetrators have been youth offender institutions increased by more than 25 per fulfilled by the Government. cent. between 2004 and 2008. Dr. Starkey: It is for the courts. There has been an absolute failure to manage the prison population. The Government have ignored all Mr. Vara: The hon. Lady says, “Of course,” but I the warnings about an impending crisis in prison places. suggest that she does some homework before she makes That is why prison capacity is now at 99 per cent., and it such comments because the facts are anything but what would have been a lot worse were it not for the she says. Government’s early release programme, under which What of those thugs who are caught? For them, nearly 70,000 prisoners have been released early, including antisocial behaviour orders are more a badge of honour those who had been locked up for violent offences. than a measure of crime prevention. The 2001 Labour manifesto included a pledge that “persistent offending” The Labour manifesto of 1997 said that police should should lead to “more severe punishment”, but that has be on the beat, not pushing paper, yet 12 and a half turned out to be such a mockery that it is scarcely worth years on, our police are being stifled by bureaucracy. spending time on it, although I will dwell on it just a Men and women join the police force not to sit behind little. Penalty notices for disorder are dished out by desks, but to be out there on the streets, dealing with police forces like confetti. Some individuals are given crime. We have the absurd situation in which the personal penalty notices even before they have paid for the details of an arrested person can sometimes be recorded previous one. Following a freedom of information request up to 17 times, on as many different forms. that I made to every police force in the country, I found A different, but important, consideration that is often that one individual had received eight notices in one overlooked in such debates is the hidden cost of crime: year alone. Surely someone should have come to the the cost of pain and suffering endured by the victims; conclusion at some point that the method of preventing the cost to the national health service; the cost of social crime by simply issuing another notice was not working. services; the cost of the stress and strain put on the Labour’s 1997 election pledge was to ensure that family and friends of those who need to adjust to care prison regimes would be constructive and that inmates for the victims of crime; the cost of lost wages; the cost faced up to their offending behaviour. There have been of increased insurance premiums, and so on. Although many subsequent promises to provide education and those are the hidden costs of crime, they are nevertheless training, and treatment for drug addiction, but they real. The Home Office has tried only once to cost the have simply not been followed through. In fact, prison separate headings, and in 2003 the estimated figure for is now one of the best places in which to pick up a drug those hidden costs was a staggering £29 billion. I am habit. not surprised that the Government are not keen on an 599 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 600

[Mr. Vara] I represent a varied and interesting group of more than 20 communities in Glasgow, North-East, from annual assessment of the hidden cost of crime, because Ruchill and Lambhill in the west to Hogganfield and under them that figure would have increased on a Millerston in the east, and from Dennistoun in the regular basis. south to Colston and Milton in the north. Each has its To conclude, I refer to the original phrase uttered by own history and character, but what they have in common Tony Blair: “Tough on crime, tough on the causes of is that they contain people of great humour, hard-working crime”. Two weeks ago, in an article in The Sunday people, people of intelligence, talent and aspiration. Times, Sir Paul Stephenson, the Metropolitan Police During the campaign, I met mothers in Royston who Commissioner, was asked to comment on whether he were determined to fight for better child care so that thought that Labour had delivered on that pledge, and they could work more hours to support their families. I his response was a diplomatic, “No comment.” The met young people in Ruchazie who were taking the first Government have shown themselves to be weak on step towards an apprenticeship through a programme crime and weak on the causes of crime. They have run by a local voluntary group. I met retired people in shown themselves to be rich in rhetoric and poor in Possilpark who were running a lunch club three times a substance, plentiful in promises and lacking in delivery. week for local disabled people because of their strong After 12 years in government, six Home Secretaries, sense of social responsibility. While they do not believe 39 junior Ministers, nearly 50 criminal justice Acts and that Government on their own have the answer to every more than 3,000 offences, the Government have still not ill in society, nor do they believe that Government are delivered on law and order. They are past their sell-by the problem—and nor do they believe that Government date. More importantly, they are well past their use-by should be cut back, with all the social consequences date. They need to acknowledge that it is time to go. that we saw in Glasgow in the 1980s and early 1990s. My constituents are not as some portrayed them in 4.20 pm the election, passive recipients of the welfare state, but people who want to see their children do better than Mr. William Bain (Glasgow, North-East) (Lab): Thank they have done and to possess the courage and ambition you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to strengthen their communities. They elected me because to make my maiden speech during the debate on the I will stand up for their values, and will support the Gracious Speech. It is an honour for any right hon. or policies on investment in jobs, child care, pensions, tax hon. Member to represent any constituency in this credits and the minimum wage that will bring about a House, but it is an even more special privilege to be able great improvement in their living standards. They support to serve the community in which I was born, brought up an active state that can be a force for good and has and educated, and in which I have lived throughout my greater equality as its aim, not an enabling state that life. would enfeeble communities because of its withdrawal One of the upsides of having just fought the longest of investment in jobs or decent public services. by-election campaign in modern history is that I was The Glasgow, North-East constituency was created able to meet almost one in six, or 10,000, of my constituents at the last general election from the previous seats of during its course. What renewed my faith in our democratic Glasgow, Springburn and Glasgow, Maryhill. Both areas process was having the opportunity to share my vision have in the past had outstanding representatives, such for Glasgow, North-East, and to hear of my constituents’ as George and Agnes Hardie, John Forman, Richard hopes for their future, face to face. Despite the low Buchanan, James Craigen, —as doughty a turnout, the people of Glasgow, North-East care deeply fighter for social justice today as she was when a Member about politics and about repairing the reputation of of this House—and, of course, my neighbour, the Under- this House. They have sent me here to support the Secretary of State for Scotland, my hon. Friend the recommendations of the Kelly report, and to seek greater Member for Glasgow, North (Ann McKechin), whose transparency in the way in which decisions are made by commitment on issues such as international development the House and our other democratic institutions. I have respected for over a decade. There have even been It was gratifying that so many of my right hon. and two Conservative Members in the past: Frederick hon. Friends—and, indeed, right hon. and hon. Members Macquiston, supporting a Liberal-Conservative coalition on the Opposition Benches, particularly the right hon. between 1918 and 1922, and Captain Charles Emmott Members for Witney (Mr. Cameron), for Sheffield, Hallam of the National Government coalition between 1931 (Mr. Clegg) and for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond)—were and 1935. Neither experiment has been repeated by my able to campaign in the constituency.Perhaps that contributed constituents since. to the unexpected size of my majority, which was 8,111. My immediate predecessor is Lord Martin of Springburn, I should like to share with the House a conversation and of Port Dundas. He is an exceptional person and that I had with a voter on the eve of polling day. Many parliamentarian. My family and many others in my Members may sympathise with my predicament. When constituency have known him for decades, and can I canvassed this particular elector for the third time, he attest that his career has been a tribute to the best greeted me with the same response that he had given on traditions of public service. I know him to be a man of the previous two occasions. “Are you still trying?” he great fortitude under pressure, never more so than when asked. “Yes,” I said. “I cannot support any of you,” he Speaker of this House for nearly nine years, and of said. “None of the candidates has sufficient experience great kindness. I am sure that hon. and right hon. to be elected as my MP.”As I prepared to concede and Members will have their own memories of individual to consider that my efforts might be fruitless, he leaned acts of encouragement or advice he gave, but no one conspiratorially over his garden fence and said “Don’t will forget the compassion he showed to the late Patsy worry, I will be supporting your party—not because of Calton on resuming her seat after the last general you, mind you; I will be voting for the Prime Minister.” election in the midst of her brave battle with cancer. 601 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 602

Lord Martin was a member of Glasgow Corporation These will be vital months in securing our economic between 1973 and 1979, and a Member of this House recovery, and the jobs and living standards of millions for 30 years, being returned with prodigious majorities of people will be affected by the decisions we take. in seven consecutive general elections. Key to his politics Whatever our differences on policy across this Chamber, was his passion for better housing. His own experiences the great strength of this House is that we can rise to growing up in Anderston, together with his vision to national challenges together. Let us face these responsibilities improve his community, led him to champion the together and remember that greater economic fairness development of new social housing. He was a founder- and equality is the prerequisite of greater liberty for the member of what is now North Glasgow Housing British people. I look forward to debating these issues Association, and the more than £100 million of investment and others with hon. and right hon. Members across in homes in the constituency is an achievement of this House in the coming months and to supporting the which Lord Martin and this Government can justly be Gracious Speech in the Division Lobby today and proud. tomorrow. As Speaker, Lord Martin was a resolute defender of the rights and privileges of the legislature from Executive Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have now to announce the encroachment. His wit, fairness and humour are missed result of a Division deferred from a previous day. On from this House, but are now at the disposal of the the question relating to Adjournment (Christmas), the other place. I wish him and his family well for the Ayes were 273 and the Noes were 198, so the question future, and it is a particular pleasure to work with his was agreed to. son, Paul, who is an outstanding Member of the Scottish [The Division list is published at the end of today’s Parliament for the area. debates.] Every Member representing Glasgow is also a successor to the tradition of progressive politics championed by 4.32 pm John Wheatley and James Maxton. Their commitment Mr. Anthony Steen (Totnes) (Con): First, I congratulate to equality finds new expression in our debate today. the hon. Member for Glasgow, North-East (Mr. Bain) Most of my working life has been spent in education, on his speech. I cannot remember when I made my and I was pleased to visit recently both colleges in my maiden speech or even what I made it about, but I constituency: John Wheatley college in Haghill, and should say that making a successful maiden speech, North Glasgow college in Springburn. They provide such as his, is an initiation through which we all have to people with high-quality further and higher education go to be accepted by both sides of this House. I actually and training, transforming the life chances of, and listened to his speech and the fact that so many other outcomes for, my constituents. Members were present shows that they listened to it too. The most pressing issue in this debate, and for the We all look forward to listening to more of what he has country at large, is unemployment and how to move our to say, but I must tell him that the Chamber will not be economy into recovery. Although the increase in as silent in future as it was then. unemployment has slowed in recent months, the I wish to discuss the absence in the Gracious Speech International Monetary Fund anticipates that it will of the subject of human trafficking. We often hear continue to rise until 2010, and this particularly impacts about crimes, drugs, knife crimes and DNA, but we do upon young people. Our constituents will judge us not talk much in this Chamber about the problems harshly if we fail to act now. That is why we need not caused by human trafficking, which exist in Scotland as only a continuing fiscal stimulus, but a continuing jobs much as they do in England. The fact that the United stimulus. I welcome the additional £5 billion that my Nations put the searchlight on human trafficking shows right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and that it is a serious international problem. In the 19th century, Pensions has to invest in jobs for 18 to 24-year-olds and this horrific crime was recognised as a fundamental the long-term unemployed. I welcome the impact the abuse of human rights worldwide; citizens of richer future jobs fund is having in Glasgow, where 470 jobs nations felt that they could, with impunity, abuse and have been created so far, but there is an urgent need for control the lives of those less fortunate than themselves. many more. I will shortly bring together employers, the It is not that slavery was anything new in the 19th century, city council and voluntary groups in my area to develop as it had already existed for thousands of years, with bids to bring more of this investment to Glasgow, Israelites in Egypt having been enslaved by Pharaohs. North-East. At present, there are 1,275 jobless young What Wilberforce did was to draw attention to it and people in my constituency, but only 617 employment highlight the fundamental injustice of one human being vacancies. Had it not been for the policies followed by misusing and abusing another for their own personal this Government on the new deal, the flexible new deal gain. Wilberforce had amazing public relations skills, and the future jobs fund in the past year, the number of which resulted in the world banning slavery. unemployed would have been far higher. Sadly, however, passing Acts of Parliament does not We have faced the biggest shock to the global economy stop slavery. What we have got now in this country and for more than 60 years and our European Union partners in the world is new slavery. The United Nations figures are struggling with high unemployment too. Tough suggest that nearly 1 million people are enslaved each economic times make the burden of child and family year, being trafficked and exploited. Men, women and poverty even greater, which is why I support the Child children are victims, some of forced labour, some of Poverty Bill in setting targets and setting out a sexual exploitation. Trafficking has leapfrogged over comprehensive strategy for the abolition of child poverty arms dealing and is now second only to drug trafficking by 2020. We also need to commit across the House to when it comes to criminal activity and gain. Human the improvements in child benefit, tax credits and the trafficking is estimated to generate annual profits for minimum wage that will make it happen. the traffickers of £32 billion. 603 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 604

[Mr. Anthony Steen] Child Prostitution, Child Pornography and the Trafficking of Children for Sexual Purposes—the POPPY project, Wilberforce brought the slave trade to an end and the the Helen Bamber Foundation and other anti-trafficking so-called developed countries moved on, but they moved bodies. Endless groups of people are concerned about on to create new slavery. Ten years ago, the subject was the problem, but it is still growing. barely debated in the Chamber or recognised as an Against that background, I want to approach the issue. Not much space was given to it in our debates, question of why the Metropolitan police are planning either here or anywhere else, because, to put it simply, to close their human trafficking department. I have there are few votes in human trafficking. It is not a been one of the people who are fortunate enough to matter that concerns the electorate. have been on the police service parliamentary scheme We must give credit to the Government and, in particular, for the last two years; I think that I am the oldest to the hon. Member for Gedling (Mr. Coaker) in his policeman on the streets of London. It has allowed me former role as Minister of State in the Home Office for to see the splendid work of the human trafficking team. drawing attention to new slavery as it affects this country We have 31,000 officers in the Metropolitan police, and and for doing something about it. It is not about there are only nine in the human trafficking department. smuggling people, asylum seeking or illegal immigration. The plan is to close it, as they say that it should be Human trafficking is something different—it deceives merged. However, if they merge it, the department’s and misleads some of the most vulnerable people in the profile will be lost, as will the important work that it poorest countries into believing that there is a new and does. better tomorrow around the corner. It is about deception. The Olympics mean that more people will be trafficked, It is about using other people’s lives to make money for and I shall give the House an idea of the numbers the trafficker. involved. There will be 100,000 people working on the Yes, there are sex traffickers. There are illiterate girls games, as well as 10,500 athletes and 20,000 press and with lover-boy syndrome. There are girls with little media people, and a total of 9 million tickets will be self-esteem and no education, who are often from rural held by spectators. Human trafficking will increase, and backgrounds and who typically have unstable family it will affect the men involved in debt bondage, the histories. Trafficking does not just happen from poor children trafficked on the streets and the women trafficked countries to this country—it happens within this country, for sex. To close the Metropolitan police scheme, as is too. Trafficking is going on within England, Northern being considered at the moment, would be sheer folly. Ireland, Scotland and Wales and it is growing. Trafficking I have the privilege to chair the all-party committee does not just take place from Thailand or Bulgaria—it on human trafficking, and we are diametrically opposed takes place within the country as well as outside it. to the human trafficking team being closed and absorbed As regards child trafficking, there are children from by some other group. China and Vietnam involved in the cultivation of cannabis plants. The Metropolitan police have 300 factories identified John Austin: Has the hon. Gentleman had any discussions in London alone and there must be more in other parts about that proposal with the Mayor of London, who of the country. However, it is principally children from chairs the Metropolitan Police Authority? Has he asked the EU who are trafficked to steal on the streets and what the justification for it is? who are involved in ATM thefts. There is no place for Mr. Steen: That is a splendid idea and, if I may, I these children to go into care, because there are no shall blame the hon. Gentleman for giving it to me. I people with the same language who are willing to foster shall approach the Mayor tomorrow and convey to him them and there is no room in children’s homes. They are exactly that point. sent back to where they came from and re-trafficked. Some are under the age of 10 and an artful child can I turn now to the UK Human Trafficking Centre in earn up to £100,000 a year for their traffickers. We have Sheffield, which the hon. Gentleman and I visited last identified more than 1,000 such children already on the Monday. I thank the Joint Committee on Human Rights streets in this country, and they move between this for inviting me to attend, as it was an illuminating and country, Spain, Italy and back again, avoiding detection. interesting day, but I am also concerned that the Government are thinking of closing that centre too, on Globally, there is growing awareness of how extensive the basis that it could be absorbed into the Serious trafficking is and of the different types of exploitation Organised Crime Agency or put into the immigration into which people are trafficked, but it is not visible. Of service. course it is not—we do not see car thieves or burglars in If either option came about, we would once again the act, and we do not see traffickers in the act. It is lose the important knowledge that the centre has provided worth noting that more than twice as many people are over the years and which has been of such benefit. in bondage in the world today as were ever in chains Incorporating it into a larger organisation may be good during the 350 years of the African slave trade. political thinking on the part of a Labour Government I mentioned the Minister for Schools and Learners, who like things to be bigger and bigger, but it will not the hon. Member for Gedling, and I should mention the help the human trafficking scene in this country. action plan that brings together the Ministry of Justice, the Home Office, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, John Austin: The hon. Gentleman will know that the the Department for International Development, the UK Government’s ratification of the convention on Department for Culture, Media and Sport, and the human trafficking was delayed in part by arguments Department for Children, Schools and Families. All from the UK Border Agency that there was a pull-factor the Government Departments are now involved. We in adopting a victim-based approach to trafficking. have wonderful non-governmental organisations in this Does he share my view that the Border Agency is not country, such as ECPAT UK—which stands for End the place to locate the trafficking unit? 605 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 606

Mr. Steen: I agree entirely. The UK Border Agency, parts of the country and other parts of the world. I am good though it is, has serious problems, one of which is delighted to learn that the problem is not confined to that it does not distinguish a person who is trafficked Croydon, but occurs in Enfield and north London. from one who is not. The UK Human Trafficking Centre was established only two and a half years ago 4.46 pm and there are problems with it, but it is tackling its task and its staff are very committed. The hon. Gentleman Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) (Lab): It is a and I were both impressed by the enthusiasm and pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Steen) commitment of the people working there. Most of and to have the opportunity to speak in the debate on them are police officers, of course, but some staff are the Gracious Speech. The hon. Gentleman’s work on from the Border Agency and there are a few outside trafficking has been very important. My constituency people as well. It would clearly be a very big mistake to has been heavily affected by trafficked women and close down the structure that has been set up. trafficked children, so the work that he has undertaken has been valuable. I have a few more things to say. First, the Inter- I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Parliamentary Union is holding a conference at the end for Glasgow, North-East (Mr. Bain). It was a pleasure of February so that parliamentarians from other countries to hear him speak and, at a time when there is so much can learn about this country’s experience with trafficking. cynicism about politics, to hear such a straightforward, I think that our experience has been good and that we idealistic and optimistic speech. I am sure his career in have done very well, but other Parliaments need to the House will be long and distinguished, and I offer benefit from what we have done, just as we must benefit him many congratulations on his speech. from what they are doing. There was some suggestion from the Opposition that If I may say so, our all-party group on human the Queen’s Speech was a waste of time and that we trafficking will be doing a Billy Graham before the should be reforming Parliament or holding an election, parliamentarians from other EU countries. We will be but there is some important work to do. Some of the trying to excite their interest and involve them in the most important items relate to the home affairs brief human trafficking debate. We want to learn from them, and the Department for Work and Pensions portfolio, and we want them to learn from us. so I am particularly pleased to be able to speak in New slavery is not a thing of the past. It is a thing of today’s debate. the present, and it is rampant across the world. We in One of the topics on which I wish to speak is the the UK have a good story to tell and I hope that, by mandatory code on alcohol sales, which will be the leading a campaign among IPU representatives and subject of secondary legislation due at the end of this parliamentarians from every EU country, we will be year or the beginning of next year. I take the opportunity able to make progress in tackling this appalling scourge. to encourage my hon. Friends on the Front Bench to Wilberforce thought that he had solved it, but it exists make sure that the code is as robust as it can be. They now in a greater measure than it ever did in his day. I am should not take the view that because there is an election going to speak to Spanish parliamentarians on Monday coming along nothing should be done about alcohol. next, and I am going to Paris to speak to the French. It Apart from being necessary, the measures to combat is a busy and important task, and I hope the Home binge drinking chime well with the public mood. In my Secretary and the Government will support the initiative. constituency they have been supported at public meetings and debates and in online surveys. There are three aspects that concern people: labelling, Mr. Burrowes: I congratulate my hon. Friend on in-store and happy hour-type promotions, and price championing the cause for so many months and years. controls. The controls on happy hour-type promotions It is important that he has brought it to our attention. partly affect price, but do not go far enough, particularly As well raising its international profile, is it not important because they tend to affect pubs and clubs, whereas part to bring it to the attention of local communities, such as of the mischief of excess drinking arises from off-licence in Enfield, where we set up our own commission to look and supermarket sales. It is important that, if we are to at the information on whether human trafficking occurs deal with the problems of pricing, we have measures in Enfield, as we know it does, and across our communities? that go across both the on trade and the off trade. As much as we need national and international co-operation, it is important to ground it in local People say that all the problems can be solved by information and action. making drink more expensive, but it is also about preventing drinking from becoming even cheaper. In Northampton, some of the pubs and clubs discount their prices so that Mr. Steen: I am glad I had a minute to spare. That is a they can become student bars, and once they have the good point. There are initiatives throughout London clientele the prices drift back up. A couple of years ago, and, I hope, in other parts of the country, where local the price of a drink in the student promotion was £1.50. people are going around trying to identify people who Now, it is two drinks—a drink and a shot—for £1. That may have been trafficked. I have a confession to make. is 50p a drink. The clubs say that if they went right Croydon churches decided that they would do that. down to the base price that they pay for the alcohol— They went to the police, who said, “There are between without factoring in the cost of staff, maintaining the six and eight brothels that we know about in Croydon, premises, and so on—the cost could be as low as 24p a and we occasionally go and see whether there are any unit. If alcohol started to get even close to that price, trafficked people there.”The group of churches discovered the impact on health and on law and order would be that there were 60 brothels in Croydon, not just the six absolutely catastrophic. Minimum pricing, which I believe that were known about. It is a major problem—not just a mandatory code should bring in, would set a floor prostitution, but girls who are trafficked from other under that kind of discounting. 607 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 608

[Ms Sally Keeble] I hope also that the legislation from the Department for Work and Pensions will include some real opportunities Exactly the same would apply in supermarkets. Everyone to provide more support for parents’ flexible working. I is familiar with the argument that supermarkets get recently undertook some research in my constituency people in to buy discounted alcohol, then cross-sell to into the impact of the recession on families in Northampton, other products. Effectively, the other products, and and, with information from the Equality and Human other drinkers, are having to subsidise the cost of very Rights Commission, it clearly shows that as a result of cheap alcohol. Sometimes, alcohol can be cheaper than the recession more women are becoming the breadwinners. water, which is complete nonsense. They say that they are the breadwinners and take primary A recent inquiry conducted by the Health Committee responsibility for the financial well-being of the family, found that Tesco was not completely opposed to minimum and that their partners are taking more responsibility pricing, and the World Health Organisation has stated: for child care. In those circumstances, it is important “Increasing the price of alcoholic beverages is one of the most that we extend flexible working arrangements to men, if effective interventions to reduce harmful use of alcohol. Consumers, appropriate, so that they can take even more responsibility including heavy drinkers and young people, are sensitive to changes for their children, and women can pursue their careers in the price of drinks.” and increase their income for the benefit of their families. It is the excessive drinking and binge drinking of heavy One legacy of the recession will be changed family drinkers and young people in particular that is causing structures, roles and responsibilities, and I hope that my the greatest public concern. right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench will Some careful work has also been done by Sheffield ensure that their proposals meet those challenges, so university and others on the impact of pricing on that families can build a more secure future. alcohol consumption. Concrete results from the Sheffield studies show that a minimum price of 40p per unit of 4.59 pm alcohol would prevent 1,400 deaths a year and produce Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): It is to an estimated reduction of 41,000 hospital admissions a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Northampton, and 16,000 incidents of crime a year. According to North (Ms Keeble), who was quite right to focus on Alcohol Concern, a minimum price of 50p a unit would alcohol and the need for action on the problem. Indeed, result in 3,393 fewer deaths and 45,800 fewer crimes a there has not been such action in the past 12 years. The year, and a total saving of £7.4 billion over 10 years. hon. Lady makes a good case for minimum pricing, and I would also like to spell out some of the support for it must be looked at carefully. introducing minimum pricing or, at least, tighter controls We have a Scottish experiment on minimum pricing. on alcohol prices. Not just the police, the chief medical The hon. Member for Glasgow, North-East (Mr. Bain), officer and others in the health world and the National whom I, too, commend on his maiden speech, referred Association of Head Teachers think that it would be to the Scottish experiment with Conservative Members helpful. There is also significant support in the entertainment of Parliament, and now we have an experiment with and drinks industries themselves. Recently, the head of minimum pricing, so we will see whether it is a success. this country’s biggest chain of nightclubs, Luminar, This is an important issue on which we must all reflect, accompanied me to see an hon. Friend in the Home but I commend to the Government the Conservative Office. We talked about the importance of providing a proposals for targeted tax increases on problem drinks floor for alcohol prices to secure a more realistic base such as alcopops and super-strength lagers. We need to for the entertainment industry and reach a position take proper, targeted action in relation to the prevalence where people choose their nightclubs based on the of alcohol and the menace that it causes in our communities. quality of the venue, not because they are engaged in a That reflects the fact that we have not achieved that yet, “how low can you go” competition in the price of by any means. drinks on offer. As ever in our home affairs debates, I declare an I hope that when the mandatory code is introduced interest as a just-about-practising criminal solicitor with towards the end of the year, it will not only deal in very a keen interest in yet another crime Bill. Reference has strict order with information and education, but have been made to whether there have been 28 or nearly 50 real teeth on pricing and, in particular, look at introducing crime and justice Bills under this Government. It reminds minimum pricing to combat what has been a social of me of childhood songs that my children now sing as menace. The issue was first raised with me by constituents well. They repeatedly sing the second verse of the same concerned about the impact of antisocial behaviour by song a little bit louder and a little bit worse, and so it young people drinking on the Moulton Leys estate. goes on. One feels that about the Government’s repeated The second measure that I am really pleased to be Home Office and Ministry of Justice legislation. I worry able to discuss is the Child Poverty Bill, which has been that we are just getting more of the same and more that carried over so that it can complete its parliamentary is worse. The latest Bill has similar characteristics to all stages. I hope that all parties will support it not just with those that have gone before. In the theme of the season, warm, fluffy words, but by giving real teeth to the we have a Christmas tree Bill. I fear that the members of regulations and secondary legislation that will be introduced the Public Bill Committee that considers it will see ever in the new year. They will set out how our local authorities more amendments hanging off it as desperate attempts implement those measures and ensure that they tackle are made to introduce measures to plug the gaps, whether child poverty in their areas. However, I shall table some in relation to antisocial behaviour, crime or security. amendments to the Bill to strengthen its safeguards for The other characteristic of such home affairs legislation poor families in housing, because, although the legislation is that the Government are dealing with a problem of already contains such proposals, they are not strong their own making. In the case of the DNA database, for enough. example, the Government are trying to catch up with 609 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 610 court judgments and the values of our country. We have Today, the Home Secretary seemed remarkably heard about mission creep and the over-involvement of complacent about the problem of drugs in this country. innocent people, and the Government’s use of secondary Drug deaths continue to rise—they are the highest in legislation has meant that we have not had the opportunity Europe—and the cost of drug abuse, through crime and to debate the issue during consideration of primary health services, has been more than £100 billion since legislation. A welcome aspect of the Bill is that we will 1998. It is important that we deal with the situation, have the opportunity to debate the important principles because it is not just a crime and justice problem, but a that have been under attack from this Government and problem for health and the wider community. the need to ensure that we have a proper balance We should not get away from the fact that the prevalence between security and liberty. and usage of drugs has got worse. The age of initiation The Bill fails to deal with issues of repeal. In our has come down, and we need to do more to tackle the desire to have new pieces of legislation to deal with fact that the UK is the worst in Europe for drug use. We issues of crime and justice, we must recognise the need need proper and effective treatment, but let us look at to repeal elements of what has gone before. It is a shame the outcome of the admittedly large amount that has that the Government do not recognise the extent of gone into it. In the past year, of the 202,666 problematic their mistakes. They would do well to look at previous drug users in treatment, how many had completed legislation and to implement it—and enforce it—better. programmes to the point of becoming drug-free? Just We need only look at the Criminal Justice Act 2003, a 8,980. That is unacceptable, given the investment, and large proportion of which is not yet implemented. Parts we must consider why it is the case. One problem is the of that Act, like many others that have gone before, are Government’s focus on managing the problem rather now largely discredited—for example its provisions on than seriously tackling it, and another is the fact that automatic release, particularly as they apply to people between January 2008 and this October, 20 residential with short-term sentences. An example was recently rehabilitation centres closed. reported in Essex of a person with a short sentence who The situation is bleaker when we consider prisons. was released automatically. Partly because of home There has been a 64 per cent. increase in methadone detention curfews and their having been sentenced on a prescribing, and few drug-free referrals are taking place. Friday, they were given the grant for their release and That is unacceptable and needs to change. The UK is turned out. It is unacceptable that automatic release becoming the easiest and cheapest place to get drugs, happens without any conditions in relation to the person’s whether on the streets of Enfield in my constituency or behaviour while in prison. on a wing of Pentonville or other prisons. We need to I want to focus briefly on what is and is not in the move away from simply providing treatment and towards Bill. It gives welcome attention to the whole area of management and recovery. We need to get away from domestic violence, particularly against women. That is the bureaucratic commissioning process that has led to a significant problem in all our communities. A particularly just 3 per cent. of problematic drug users becoming pernicious problem is that of repeat victimisation. That drug-free. We also need to reform how we deal with needs to be tackled in several ways, whether through criminal justice interventions, which are still leading to enforcement—we must look carefully at those provisions too much reoffending and too many damaged lives. We in the Bill—or, as has been mooted today, through need to examine drug and alcohol problems and polydrug education and prevention. Many victims experience the use in the round and realise that the evidence of the problem of going to report an incident and facing up to Home Office itself points to therapeutic communities seeking help. We need to recognise the role of the as a way forward. voluntary sector, not least in areas such as mine. There Another matter that the Government did not touch is a particular issue in relation to domestic violence in on in the Queen’s Speech was extradition, and particularly the Asian community. Organisations such as Naree how it affects my constituent Gary McKinnon. It is Shakti—it means “women’s strength”—play a role in welcome that the Home Secretary is considering the that. The point of that organisation is to provide women new medical evidence, which is compelling and significant. with the strength to come forward and receive the It deals not just with the risk of my constituent’s health ongoing support that the voluntary sector is so good at being affected by extradition to the United States, trial giving. We need to consider in the round how we can and detention, but with the fact that he has significant best tackle the problem. mental health problems aligned with his Asperger’s The Government wish to focus on education about syndrome. It is important that the Government and the domestic violence prevention, but wider matters have to Home Secretary take proper account of that evidence. I be brought into sharp relief, such as the important part pay tribute to the Select Committee on Home Affairs that drugs and alcohol sadly play in domestic violence. for its work on the matter under the leadership of the When one considers that, one sees the lack of funding right hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz). and direction in our prevention programme. The It is important that the Home Secretary does not hide Government and the Home Office pay all too little behind the previous court judgment. He needs to realise attention to the matter, and that needs to change. Perhaps that he cannot simply ignore the fact that a prosecution in some ways we should not be surprised, because the could take place in-country, and he cannot simply say Home Office’s drugs strategy has led us down that path. that the bar is far too high for the case to attract his It is less about prevention, enforcement and recovery discretion because of human rights concerns. We all and more about harm reduction, which has meant that recognise that extradition arrangements need to be in the Government’s focus has been on managing the place to fight global crime and ensure that we are not a problem rather than getting to the root causes of it and safe haven for criminals, but Gary McKinnon does not seeking to tackle it. We have seen the outcomes of that fall into that bracket. He is a vulnerable man who approach. hacked into computers and is now at significant risk. 611 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 612

[Mr. David Burrowes] 2.5 million more people in work than in 1997, and about 1.5 million people on jobseeker’s allowance. In His life is at risk, and in a recent case in the High Court, the 1980s, more than 3 million people were claiming the Lord Justice Stanley Burnton recognised that if extradition equivalent benefit. Of those, 40 per cent. had been on did not take place, Gary McKinnon could be prosecuted the dole for 12 months and more. here. Youth unemployment is a worry to us all, but of We also need to recognise the important principle of 943,000, more than 250,000 are full-time students. If proportionality. That needs to be balanced to ensure you take those out, the unemployment rate for under-25s that the mental health concerns that are now prevalent is just over 9 per cent. In the 1980s, it was 13 per cent., are taken properly into account. There is no assurance and in the 1990s, it was 12 per cent. Today, because of of bail and repatriation. Holland and Israel were able to smart government, 70 per cent. of JSA recipients are reach an agreement on the matter, but this country back in work within six months. has not, which has done a disservice to British citizens. How can people say that we live in a broken society We need to review the extradition treaty—and a new when the murder rate is at its lowest for the past Government to do that—but with Gary McKinnon, 20 years, and when overall crime is down by 39 per cent. who is a victim of an unbalanced process, we need to and violent crime by 41 per cent? How can we be in a recognise that the medical reports give ample grounds broken society when more than 70 per cent. of adults to ensure that human rights can be played in his interests, volunteer at least once a year, and when three quarters as they need to be. He needs to stay in this country. of all 13 to 19-year-olds take part in sports or clubs or Finally, reference has been made to victims. Victims volunteer? A broken society is mentioned only by those may get some new legislation, but fundamentally, we who do not care about public services because they do need criminal justice reform, which will have to wait for not need to use them, and who say that charity is the a new Government. answer because they know they will never need it. Charities have a role, but they can never be a substitute 5.11 pm for smart government. Smart government gives millions Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): I welcome the measures of British people a fair deal. That is the responsibility of in the Gracious Speech because they will be good for an elected Government; they must speak up for the Britain, the north-east of England and Sedgefield. I needs of society and not outsource them. I always find believe that they build on the successes of the Government that people who want to get the Government off their over the past 12 years. This Government’s record is built backs are usually those who think they can afford to be on proud achievements. When faced with an international without the Government. They want to see less government crisis, they have stepped up to the plate and delivered. and less regulation. But they are the first to come to the When I survey my constituency and see how it is taxpayer if their business is going under or their bank coping with the global challenges that I see around us, I has failed and wring their hands because regulation was see that unemployment has risen since 2008, but that is after all too lax. Smart government says that the public still half what it was in the mid-1980s. I ask myself why. and private sectors should work together, and that the Is it because the recession is being left to run its course, people should always come first. or because smart government, not dogma, is getting us There is of course an alternative. It is an alternative through it? In Sedgefield, about 19,000 pensioners receive that says that instead of Building Schools for the Future, the winter fuel allowance and 9,500 people receive tax parents or a charity can rent an office block to set up a credits. Is that because of an act of charity, or is it school. It is the alternative that says that 18 months for because of smart government acting on behalf of our an operation is not too long to wait. It is the alternative society to look after the most vulnerable in it? In 1997 that says it is the role of financial markets to make in County Durham, one in four young people who left money out of other people’s misery. It is the alternative school did so without a qualification; today the figure is that puts Britain on the fringes of Europe because it just over one in 10, and beneath the national average. Is ignores the fact that 60 per cent. of our trade is with that a result of a whip-round by parents to buy extra Europe and 3 million jobs depend on it. It is the world books and pencils, or is it because of investment in of “Little Britain”, not Great Britain. It is the alternative children, schools and teachers, because this Government that breaks cast-iron guarantees while the party that know that our children need to be properly equipped represents that alternative is still in opposition, where for the 21st century? An international survey of 10,000 long may it remain. It is an alternative of a party whose health practitioners says that the NHS provides the best shadow Chancellor, the hon. Member for Tatton primary health care in the world. Is that a result of (Mr. Osborne) bizarrely says that it would be on the side charity, or is it because of public investment in thousands of the NHS, when actually it is the party of a past in more doctors and nurses by a Government who created which patients waited six months for an appointment the NHS and who believe that health care should be and two years for an operation. It is an alternative that free at the point of need—a principle that is deep in the thinks that the NHS is a mistake 60 years in the making. DNA of the Labour party and the Labour Government? It is an alternative that will use the means test in reverse The answer to all those questions is obviously smart by saying to pensioners that they can have social care as government—this Government, who are guided by the long as they can put £8,000 up front. It is the alternative principles of compassion, solidarity and an understanding of a party whose leader said in his conference speech that that the wealth the economy creates is there for the “it falls to the modern Conservative Party to fight for the poorest”. many, not just the few. On hearing the right hon. Member for Witney When I hear accusations of a broken society, I think (Mr. Cameron) say that on the television, I immediately back to the 18 years immediately before 1997. When we changed over to the weather channel to see whether hell look at unemployment, it is only right that we remind had indeed frozen over, because that will be the day that ourselves of those times. Today, there are more than I will believe that statement. 613 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 614

The Opposition are no longer just the Conservatives stand for the many, but the Tories will stand by the few; apparently: they are now progressive Conservatives. But we stand for fairness, but they will stand by the privileged. how can they be progressive and conservative at the That is the choice that we face. same time? I checked the “Oxford English Dictionary” I am optimistic about the future. We need a Government to get a definition for both words. It defined progressive who are smart and big in character to face up to the as “favouring change and innovation”. For conservative, future—and they are this Government. There are challenges it said, “averse to change or innovation.” So there we ahead. If ever there was proof that we live in a globalised have it—a political philosophy that is a contradiction in world, it was the turmoil in the global economy over the terms, schizophrenic, Jekyll and Hyde, pulling one way past year. People who live in the villages and towns in then another, pointing in two directions at the same my constituency need to know that we will look after time, and just plain wrong. them in the future; that the benefits of a globalised We know the Opposition: we met them on the street economy will not pass them by; that the people who run corner of the communities they closed down in the the global economy and financial markets do not remain 1980s. We saw them turn their backs as child poverty faceless gamblers and that what they get up to is transparent soared under them. We heard them when they said that and accountable, and not socially useless; and that the unemployment was a price worth paying. What they major economies act in unison through the G20 and, if say and do are two different things—just look at their necessary, the introduction of a Tobin tax to dampen commitments and compare them with those of the down the casino economy and to provide a safe and Government. The first alternative policy they have to stable world of savings and investment for ordinary smart government is to reduce inheritance tax and give people. a £200,000 tax cut to each of the 3,000 richest estates. As I look at the register of donors to the Conservative They will cut payments for people on incapacity benefit party, I see bankers, hedge fund managers, tycoons, without investing in the measures needed to find them such as Lord Ashcroft, and people who believe in a work. The Opposition put thousands of people on casino economy and who got us into this mess in the benefit when they were in power in the 1980s and 1990s, first place. I guess that they will vote for the Conservative and a generation was lost. It was left to this Government party, because it represents their interests. That is another to pick up the pieces, as we have been doing. reason I know that the Labour party will win the next election. The hon. Member for Tatton keeps saying that we are all in this together, but he wants people on modest incomes to take a pay freeze and work longer. It is easy 5.21 pm to say that we are all in this together when you are a John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): I congratulate millionaire, can retire when you want to and do not my neighbouring colleague, the hon. Member for Glasgow, have to worry about paying the bills. The Government North-East (Mr. Bain), on an excellent maiden speech. have introduced a 50 per cent. tax rate for those earning I hope that he will be available to his constituents and more than £150,000 a year, because we do believe that take on some of the case work that I have been covering we are all in this together. in recent months—I had to survive only three weeks of The right hon. Member for Witney blames “big a campaign, but he had four or five months, which is government”. In my view, it is just as well that our extraordinary. He mentioned several important issues Government were big enough and smart enough to take on which I hope he will press the Government, because the decisions to save the economy from total collapse. It there might be slight differences between him and his is just as well that our Government are big enough and Front-Bench colleagues. For example, perhaps it is time smart enough to fund 100,000 jobs for young people; that we saw an increase in the minimum wage. He help 300,000 families with their mortgages; and sign suggested that a fiscal stimulus would help unemployment, 200,000 agreements with businesses allowing them more whereas, I believe, his Front-Bench colleagues are planning time to pay their tax bills and keep people in work. cuts. The Opposition now claim that community is in their I will concentrate on the proposal to abolish attendance DNA. Well, it was not in their DNA when they were allowance and disability living allowance for over-65s, last in government, when real, long-term mass which would affect 2.4 million vulnerable pensioners— unemployment was evident on every street corner and 1.6 million claiming attendance allowance and 800,000 plagued our communities. If community was not in living on DLA. We have received various reassurances their DNA then, it cannot be in their DNA now. Their from Ministers suggesting that people will receive similar DNA has done nothing but mutate into a split personality, services, rather than money. On Thursday, the Health saying one thing and doing another. But we know the Secretary said that truth. We are mending the broken society that they left “people will be guaranteed an equivalent level of support”.—[Official behind. We know because we took the tough decisions Report, 19 November 2009; Vol. 501, c. 241.] that they opposed on the economy. We know the truth “Equivalent level of support” could mean cash, home because Labour has built more than 100 new hospitals. help or similar support in kind, and people are asking, There are hundreds of new or refurbished schools. In “Which is it?” It is not good enough. That phrase is the north-east, deaths by heart disease have fallen by worrying a lot of people and I hope that we will receive 58 per cent., and cancer deaths by 28 per cent. We still some clarification. Clearly, the same money cannot be have much to do, but Labour’s intent is clear: we are on in two places at the same time, so increasing services in the side of the people. The truth is that we created the one area will mean cuts in payments in another area, NHS, but the Tories voted against it; we introduced the and presumably the people who lose attendance allowance minimum wage, but the Tories voted against it; we will not necessarily be the people who receive the new created Sure Start, but the Tories voted against it; we services. 615 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 616

[John Mason] Clearly there are overlaps between work and pensions and other aspects of the Queen’s Speech, such as health. Attendance allowance and DLA do a lot of good. I Another example is the minimum wage. If the Government shall quote from a briefing that I received from the are strapped for cash, why are we subsidising profitable Scottish Association for Mental Health. It provides employers to pay below a living wage? Tax credits are a several examples of how DLA and attendance allowance good thing, because they boost the income of low can be used to good effect, but we are short of time, so I earners. I certainly welcome that, but the Government’s shall limit how much I quote. It states: policies effectively mean that we are encouraging some “Disability benefits and free personal care enable older people employers to pay a wage that people cannot live on. I in Scotland to remain independent in the community, providing consider that to be immoral. If we are looking at older people with a personal budget to help with their care and benefits and encouraging people into work, part of the support needs. This could include covering the costs of a friend or equation has to be increasing the minimum wage. family member coming to the home in the morning to help the person get out of bed, prepare meals or do shopping and cleaning. Let me briefly discuss one or two other areas of Any changes to disability benefits could affect the provision of concern that have been mentioned today. We certainly this care and support and result in an older person needing more welcome the Child Poverty Bill. There has been a lot of costly forms of social care in the home or lead to a person moving support for the Bill from across the House, but there is into residential care if they were not able to manage their household.” concern that we will not be even halfway there by SAMH gives similar examples: 2010-11. The Home Secretary said in opening this debate “Changes could increase the pressures on informal carers that he hoped to be there, but I do not think that he was which could limit the opportunities of carers being able to work widely believed. There are apparently no resources coming and therefore lead to them not contributing through the income in to support the intention to abolish child poverty by tax system.” 2020. The hon. Member for Northampton, North The fear is of a lose-lose situation. (Ms Keeble) said that there would be “real teeth” in the The other concern is that I thought that we were Bill, but I have seen no sign of teeth whatever. Indeed, I aiming to support direct payments. In fact, the Welfare would like to see what those “real teeth”might be, and that Reform Act 2009, which went through Committee only is without mentioning the fact that taking child poverty recently and which I was involved with, made some down to only 10 per cent. is hardly abolishing it. good statements in that direction. For example, clause 30 of the then Bill said: I do not want to spend much time on immigration, but it has been mentioned once or twice. There are just a “The purpose of this Part is to enable disabled people aged 18 couple of points that I would like to make, the first of or over to exercise greater choice in relation to, and greater control over, the way in which relevant services…are provided to which is about bogus colleges. We need action on that or for them”. issue, on which there is agreement across the House. The idea is to move to giving people more control over The colleges in my area, including John Wheatley college, their services, but if we abolish attendance allowance, it which covers an area that I share with the hon. Gentleman, appears that there will be less control. are concerned about the issue, as I know Scottish colleges will be in future. What will happen to the money if DLA and attendance allowance are abolished for Scotland and Wales? Will it At the same time, while there is concern about people be handed over as a lump sum? If so, will the amount be coming in in an uncontrolled manner, my own experience based on need or on the Barnett formula of population? is that the Border Agency can be extremely strict with a Will it be open to the devolved Governments to continue lot of people. As I have mentioned before, a pipe band with attendance allowance in Scotland and Wales, even from Pakistan was refused entry and I know that a if they do not continue in England? Perhaps we could number of people from north America who had been also have some clarification about whether only well funded to work with the homeless in Glasgow, for new claimants are affected, or will some of the current example, or who had come to speak at a Christian recipients lose benefits? There seems to be a lot of conference have been sent right back from the airport. uncertainty about that, too. Can we have a clear statement Yes, we need border controls, but there also needs to be from the Minister? I do not think that disabled pensioners flexibility. I echo the point made previously that Scotland’s and their carers should have to wait for clarification on population is such that we would welcome more people that key issue. coming in and boosting our economy. There is also the potential for an impact on carer’s The final area I want to touch on briefly is the allowance, which is extremely low at the moment, at Calman commission, which I believe is an omission £53.10. However, what happens if carer’s allowance is from the Queen’s Speech. Whether it was there in the paid to someone who looks after a person receiving original version or not is a matter for debate, but attendance allowance and attendance allowance is the reality is that there is no firm commitment by the abolished? It seems bizarre to me that the party planning Government to take forward the Calman commission’s to cut benefits is the Labour party. That is the kind of proposals, despite the fact that many of them could thing that I would have expected from the Tories, who very easily be brought into being. Sir Kenneth Calman seem to be the ones trying to protect those benefits, himself said of his report: although I do not entirely trust their version of events. That is a reverse from my younger days, perhaps 30 years “I think there are a lot of bits, as I mentioned, which I think ago, when Labour was to the left of the Tories. Many of can be implemented quickly and easily without too much fuss, others will take a bit of time to think through.” my constituents now tell me that they cannot tell the difference. I fear that parts of the electorate still think I appeal to the Government, where there is agreement that Labour is the party that will protect the poor and across the board, not to leave matters until after the downtrodden, but when I hear things such as what I election, which will only cause delay. Let us act sooner have described, it makes me wonder. rather than later. 617 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 618

The drink-driving limit is one example. Clearly, there One Opposition Member said today that we keep is an alcohol problem in Glasgow and the west of going on about the past—we like to remind people once Scotland and I know that it exists south of the border as or twice—whereas the Opposition want to talk about well. Minimum pricing has been mentioned, which we the future. However, people cannot be told to look into certainly welcome and encourage for Scotland. I hope the crystal ball when they have already read the book that the hon. Lady and others who have spoken in and know what the Opposition have been up to. support of this measure will speak to their colleagues in Among local government workers, who will vote for Scotland and encourage them to support it, too. If the Opposition? All the secondary schools in this country Northern Ireland can have separate limits for drink-driving, are being rebuilt. In contrast, let us look at the state of surely it would be helpful if we moved quickly so that the schools before this Government came into office—the Scotland can take a lead, as I argued earlier that it has size of the classrooms, the state of the equipment. Now on other issues. look at the excellent work going on. Which parent who remembers going to school during the 18 years of Tory Several hon. Members rose— Government will turn round and say, “Oh, no, I don’t like all these changes. It’s too extravagant for me. I want Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. The to go back to having a leaky roof. I don’t want a time limit on speeches will be reduced from now onwards computer, I just want to go and write on a bit of paper.” to 10 minutes. They will never do that in a million years. I admit that the Government have disappointed me in 5.32 pm one area of social policy: antisocial behaviour. They have not gone as far as I would have liked. We all have Mr. Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): I congratulate antisocial behaviour in our communities, and we are my new hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, North-East trying hard to stop that blight. However, if we ask (Mr. Bain), who has unfortunately had to leave, having people in working-class communities such as Jarrow, been in the Chamber all afternoon waiting patiently for Tyneside, Teesside, Durham and other parts of the his turn, as we all have. He made an excellent maiden country why we have that blight, they will say that it speech—one of the best I have ever heard. Many people goes back to the past. were in their places to hear it and a great deal of interest In the past, when those young kids who had a bit of was created, which bodes well for a great future. cheek—we all remember the cheeky one in our The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan classrooms—and the tough lads left school at 16, they Haselhurst), who was in the Chair at the time, was went into the pits, shipyards and steelworks. They were listening avidly, as I was, for mention of my hon. not condemned to a lifetime on the dole, of nothing. Friend’s sporting interests. Mr. Deputy Speaker was They were not thrown out and told, “You’re not wanted, particularly interested in hearing about cricket, to see you’re nothing.” They were taken in. On their first day whether my hon. Friend would be attracted by the in the workplace, they were put under adult supervision— Commons cricket club, which the right hon. Gentleman the supervision of people who were respected in their runs, while I was waiting to hear whether he said own communities and who looked after their communities. anything about football so that I could involve him as a Yes, they policed their own communities. They were a Glaswegian in the parliamentary football club. great hand to the police, because when young kids I was reminded that next Tuesday the parliamentary knocked around the corner, somebody would tell their football team, which has many distinguished Members father in work, and he would speak to someone else in from both sides of the House, is playing its annual work. Those kids would not be around the next week; fixture against the chefs of the House. The great Glaswegian they would be out doing something better, or they player Kenny Dalglish is coming along. I had a word in would be in the house. my hon. Friend’s ear, but I was most disappointed when We have not done as much as we could have on he turned around and said, “I don’t play football too antisocial behaviour, social problems and crime in this well.” The Labour party had better sort out its selection country, but people in communities such as mine still practices if we are not getting decent sportsmen into the refer all those problems back to the dreadful 18 years Commons to fill our teams to play against other teams when they were cast out to despair. for charity. The Gracious Speech rightly says that the Government I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for are committed to giving everyone a chance and giving Sedgefield (Phil Wilson), who summed up why people everyone fairness, and that more measures will be brought should vote Labour at the next general election. He forward to complement those in the Gracious Speech. I summed up what we have done over the years and want to raise one issue that is immensely important to exactly how this most gracious Queen’s Speech will workers of today, pensioners of today, and pensioners build on that. I was most impressed with my hon. of tomorrow: pleural plaques. As the Minister knows, Friend’s speech. He went through so much that it made many of us have campaigned for a substantial period of me wonder which constituency—not in the geographical time to get the dreadful decision of the Law Lords sense, but in the sense of a group of people—would be overturned, to ensure that pleural plaques sufferers, voting for the Opposition at the next election. He both now and in the future, have the rightful compensation mentioned pensioners and I wondered whether they that they enjoyed for so long. would want to throw away the winter fuel allowance, Members on both sides of the House know that the help with their TV licences and their bus passes. I do justice takes persistence and time, and requires us to not think so. Pensioners are far too wise; they have been break down the opposition of vested interests and other through the Tory period and seen what the Tories have objections. Battling bureaucracies, building alliances done. and lobbying Ministers is part of the job of MPs, no 619 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 620

[Mr. Stephen Hepburn] that. It does not include crimes committed by people under the age of 16, and it certainly does not include matter which side they sit on. We have all taken up the hospital statistics—which, surprisingly, were referred causes on behalf of constituents or groups of people. to by a member of the Liberal Democrat Front Bench. Our job is about representing ordinary people whose Those statistics clearly show that a large number of very voice would otherwise not be heard. That is why it is so violent crimes—knife crimes—are going unreported because important to raise the issue of pleural plaques sufferers people are too scared or unwilling to go to the police. in today’s debate. I make no apology for continuing to We do not need to open our newspapers and see a campaign, along with other Members, and continuing former Home Secretary cavorting around the streets of to try to overturn that disgraceful and unjust decision London in a bullet-proof vest to know that crime is out by the Law Lords to bar this terrible illness from of control. We do not need to observe, day after day, the classification as a designated illness for compensation toll of young people being knifed and gunned down on purposes. our streets to know that something is wrong. The British Pleural plaques are a scarring of the lung tissue. They people have enough common sense. are caused mainly by negligent exposure to asbestos in If the hon. Member for Jarrow wants to know who the workplace. Although it is mostly the worker himself will vote for the Conservative party at the next general who has developed the condition as a result of exposure election, I can tell him that it will be all those who are to asbestos, his family may have developed it as well. concerned about crime. It will be all those who think When the worker took his work clothes home and hung that we need less political correctness in the police them up, the baby in the cot or the older son who had force—fewer people telling police officers, as they have come home from school and was doing his homework in one part of the country, that they should not say may have breathed in the bits of fibre on the overalls. It “Good morning” or “Good afternoon” because it might is well known that a substantial number of such people, be construed as being racist. Yes, that is really happening, who are now grown up, have pleural plaques merely as can be seen from last week’s issue of Jane’s Police because of exposure of that kind. Moreover, it is estimated Review. that pleural plaques sufferers are 1,000 times more likely than any other section of society to develop a We need people to stand up and say, as Conservative more serious form of asbestos-related cancer. Members have, that it is utterly wrong that people are released from prison halfway through their sentences, For over 20 years, the courts recognised that this was or, more usually, before they have even reached the a compensatable illness. Everyone accepted that, and halfway point—regardless of what crimes they may the insurers and the Government put money aside, until have committed, and regardless of whether they have this dreadful decision by the Law Lords. One of the shown any signs of wanting to behave better in prison sorriest aspects of the case was that the Law Lords than they did on the outside. I say to Liberal Democrat agreed with the lawyers who said that pleural plaques Members that prison is working, prison is effective and did not constitute a compensatable injury and did not prison is cheap. I could show that using the Government’s cause any sort of depression or illness. own statistics. It is far cheaper to keep somebody in prison than have them running around on the streets Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. I am committing one crime after another, and it is far better afraid that the hon. Gentleman has had his 10 minutes. for the victims of crime, too.

5.42 pm Steve Webb (Northavon) (LD): The hon. Gentleman David T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): The hon. intervened on a colleague of mine earlier, who pointed Member for Jarrow (Mr. Hepburn) was making some out that 92 per cent. of young male first-time offenders very interesting points towards the end of his speech. It reoffend. Is that success? is a shame that they were overshadowed by the rather silly ones with which he began. He started off with a bit David T.C. Davies: The hon. Gentleman ought to of a history lesson. “Take me back 18 years,” he said. I know that before any young offender goes to prison, will take him back 18 years, to the winter of discontent—to they are given numerous warnings and reprimands, and the last time Labour had been in power for a number of they are given one community sentence after another. years. Just like the current Labour Government, they They go to prison only because all those interventions left the country socially and economically on the brink have failed, and failed miserably. [Interruption.] Well, of utter bankruptcy. prison does not fail, in fact, because prison keeps them I should be happy to take the hon. Gentleman even off the streets after they have been given a dozen further back, to when devalued our chances, and means that the law-abiding public are kept pound by 15 or 20 per cent. but told people that “the safe. pound in their pocket” was worth the same as before. I hope that the next Government—of whichever party— Or we could go back 40 or 50 years, to will consider getting rid of the Human Rights Act 1998 building his new Jerusalem on the back of American and replacing it with something that protects the law-abiding war loans. I can go back as far in history as the hon. public of this country, because it is disgraceful that drug Gentleman likes, but I will find that history always addicts going into prison can now sue the prison authorities teaches us the same thing: that Labour Governments because they have to go through cold turkey as they always end in financial disaster, and that a Conservative cannot get their heroin, and that other drug addicts Government are required to put things right once again. who develop their habit in prison sue the prison authorities Earlier, we heard the Home Secretary talk of statistics because they have become hooked inside. It is also and quote the British crime survey. The BCS is nothing disgraceful that Muslim schoolgirls who do not like the more than an opinion poll, and a very inaccurate one at school uniform can take their school to court and get 621 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 622 given hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ done is because the Government are afraid of upsetting money, and that members of the Taliban and al-Qaeda— the community leaders in certain minority groups. For there are seven al-Qaeda members on the United Nations all the Government’s talk about equal rights and standing list living openly in this country on benefits—are told up for women and minorities, they are not really interested that they can stay here because otherwise their human in any of it; they are interested only in getting votes. rights would be breached. It is disgraceful, too, that a This is why we should be talking about immigration rapist from Sierra Leone was told he could not be and about the bogus colleges. If the Home Secretary, deported back to Sierra Leone, despite the fact that he who is no longer in his place, wants to find out where all had numerous offences against women, because that the bogus colleges are, all he has to do—I have pointed might breach his rights to a family life. That is what the this out to him before—is look at all the colleges that Human Rights Act, that this Government passed, has are offering courses other than in the English language done for us. We should tear it up and replace it with and which have more than 50 per cent. of their make-up something that will protect the general public. comprising foreign nationals. That is an almost certain indicator of a bogus college. I have pointed out other David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): benefit scams to Ministers on previous occasions, but I cannot be the only Member who finds it rather spooky they have no interest in going in there to sort any of that as soon as political correctness is mentioned, as if these matters out. by magic the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) For 12 or 13 years now, we have put up with this appears in the doorway and enters the Chamber. Government of political correctness. In April, we will I want, however, to ask the hon. Member for Monmouth have another chance: the people—the law-abiding, tax- (David T.C. Davies) if he was saying he would abandon paying voters of this country—will have a chance to the concept of remission for prison sentences, and if so, boot out the Government of politically correct policies how he would handle the bad behaviour that would and elect people who believe in common sense, fair play result if there was no longer the incentive of remission. and delivering value for money. I look forward to that day coming soon. David T.C. Davies: I am more than happy to discuss that when time permits, as I have many views on prisons, Several hon. Members rose— but I want to mention immigration now, as so many among our political classes are afraid to do so. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I call Dr. Phyllis Starkey. Our failure to mention immigration has led to extremist parties—I do not call them far-right parties because 5.51 pm they are, in fact, socialist parties—gaining seats in Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): Parliaments in other places. That has happened because I think that you have a certain sense of humour, Mr. Deputy we have been scared to stand up and say what all our Speaker, in asking to me to follow the hon. Member for constituents are saying to us, which is, very simply, that Monmouth (David T.C. Davies). Unsurprisingly, I am people who come to this country should learn English not sure that he and I share the same culture or values. I and be expected to work and to fit in with our rules, certainly do not share his astonishing assertions about culture and traditions. the Human Rights Act 1998, which simply betray his We should not be changing the law to suit other lack of understanding of the way in which it incorporated people. It is absolutely wrong that we changed our within UK law a convention that was signed long ago benefits rules to recognise polygamy. It is wrong, too, and to which I hope every civilised Government throughout that we turned a blind eye to forced marriage and the world would adhere. However, I am grateful to him female genital mutilation. A Member spoke about this for demonstrating what the Conservative party is really earlier, and praised the Government for the law that was like; had the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) passed in 2003. I was not a Member then, but I can been in the Chamber, I imagine that he would have been imagine the scene: 600 Members of Parliament, probably blushing even redder than he was at Prime Minister’s all wearing white ribbons, getting up and saying female questions at the way in which his veneer of compassionate genital mutilation is wrong and we must do something conservatism was being dragged aside so that we could about it. Since then, however, absolutely nothing has see the real face of the Tory party. I hope and imagine been done about it. At great expense, the Metropolitan that the voters will not be as deceived as the right hon. police set up some sort of taskforce. I asked two years Gentleman perhaps wishes them to be. ago how many people it had investigated and how many The issue that I wish to discuss is addressed in the it had actually convicted. Answer came there none. Crime and Security Bill and is of enormous concern to Eventually, the matter had to go to the Information my constituents. I am talking about wheel-clamping Commissioner, and I finally got back the weasel answer and the proposals to get to grips, finally, with the that just one person in five or six years had been cowboy wheel clampers who operate on private land. investigated and no prosecutions had been brought. This issue—the control of the private security industry—was The situation is the same in respect of forced marriage. one of the first campaigns that I took up when I got We know from talking to local authorities that hundreds elected to this place. I was trying to campaign for the of girls under the age of 16 are disappearing from licensing of door supervisors—more popularly known school rolls. We suspect they are being taken back to as “bouncers”. At the time, they were licensed separately parts of south-east Asia and forced into marriage, but by local authorities and there was no national scheme. I very little is done about it. A tiny work force based at am pleased that this Government did eventually introduce the Foreign Office—the forced marriage unit—are looking the Security Industry Authority, which has licensed into this: a handful of people trying to deal with thousands many aspects of the private security industry, including of cases. I believe that the real reason why so little is door supervisors. That has brought a degree of order to 623 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 624

[Dr. Phyllis Starkey] has helped to co-ordinate the information that we have gathered from across the constituency. I have been the industry, and has vastly improved protection for feeding that information through to Ministers to strengthen members of the public and standards across the industry. their commitment to introducing regulation to control However, one aspect remains unregulated and that is the private wheel clampers. wheel-clamping on private land. I want to reiterate the measures that are essential to Obviously, owners of private land have every right to the regulations. First, there must be clear signage of stop people parking on their land—that is clearly sufficient size and clarity, so that people know before unarguable—but there has been an upsurge of problems they go on to the land that they are driving on to private in my constituency, particularly in Bletchley, in the land. Obviously, if drivers know that they are likely to south of the constituency, on a number of sites in the get a penalty, on their own head be it. Secondly, there centre where it is not at all obvious to people that they must be a cash limit on the level of fine that such are on private land. In the case of one major site, individuals can apply. Thirdly, they must not be able to nobody had asserted ownership rights for some years demand it in cash. There must be facilities for people to and it had, in effect, been used as a public car park, even pay by card. Fourthly, a proper receipt must be given though it was private land—the site is adjacent to an that records the place and time, the name of the operator actual public car park. and the address of the firm responsible so that individuals The building that was in the car park was converted can check whether the firm is licensed with the Security into residential flats and the private owner, thus, hired a Industry Authority. Finally, there must be a clear and wheel-clamping firm to assert his right to stop people independent appeals mechanism, as there is for parking parking on that land. Consequently, many of my fines when people park in council car parks, to ensure constituents who had been in the habit of parking that the fines are operating reasonably.I hope that Ministers unmolested on the land were suddenly subject to wheel- will be able to assure me that all that can be included. clamping, and the way in which those wheel clampers I cannot give up the opportunity to make two or operated is wholly outrageous. There was virtually no three other remarks on some of the issues that came up signage, and the signs that there were measured 12 inches earlier in the debate that relate to various parts of the by 15 inches and were written in black on red—the most Home Office. First, I want to take this opportunity to unreadable combination. The car clampers used to loiter say that my constituents have greatly valued many of around the corner, waiting for people to park and leave the improvements that have been introduced in policing, their vehicle before leaping out and shoving on the in particular neighbourhood policing. Neighbourhood car-clamping device. policing and community support officers have made a The clampers behaved in an appalling way to drivers, huge difference to the way in which low-level but extremely and among the various people who have contacted me annoying crime is detected and dealt with in the are innumerable pensioners who have had their cars neighbourhoods around Milton Keynes. It is still improving clamped and had money demanded from them. One as it beds down, but it has been immensely valuable. individual was with his wife, who suffers from type 1 The second issue is CCTV. A while ago, there was a diabetes. As a result of the stress, she started to have a particularly nasty murder in my constituency. A group hypoglycaemic episode. The car clampers insisted on of youths were fighting and one of them was killed, and their money while the man’s wife fell on to the floor and CCTV was invaluable not only in convicting the youths into a coma. He was phoning an ambulance on his who were responsible but for absolving some of the mobile phone while trying to continue the altercation other youths milling about in the fracas and who were with the car clampers over the money and over the fact not responsible for the fatal incident. It needs to be said that they would not release the clamp so that he could at that CCTV is a valuable adjunct to crime detection, least take his wife to hospital. Another constituent, an both for convicting people and for absolving the innocent. I elderly pensioner, had an asthma attack as a result of have certainly had evidence of that in my constituency. the stress caused by the actions of these individuals. Finally, I want to say a word about statistics, which One of the other car parks is connected to residential have been very misused. I reiterate the need that MPs flats but is right next door to the job centre. A couple of and others must have some mathematical education, as people who were going to the job centre had their car many people here seem to be completely innumerate. clamped in the car park, too. The initiative to improve the way we deal with domestic So, there is poor signage, the appalling way in which violence is bound to lead to an increase in the numbers the wheel clampers have behaved and the fact that they of detected crimes of domestic violence. That will be a have demanded payments in cash. They have allowed good thing. The initiative will not increase the rate of people to pay by another method in only a tiny number domestic violence but it will encourage people to report of cases, and that other method involves walking to the it, in the knowledge that incidents will be taken seriously. nearest cash machine with the car clampers to get the Exactly the same thing has happened with hate crime: money out and give it to them. Some people who did because if people are assured that they will be taken not have enough money on them or who did not have seriously, they are more likely to report incidents of hate their card have been forced to walk home to get the crime. The statistics suggest that the incidence of hate money and to come back to get their car released. The crime has gone up, but that is because we have recognised fine has been extortionate—they have been demanding the problem, not because it is happening more often. £150 from people when, in some cases, cars have been parked for only about four minutes before they have been clamped. 6.1 pm It is understandable that my constituents have become Mr. Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): I am terrified increasingly outraged and that my local newspaper, the to be following my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth Milton Keynes Citizen, has taken up the campaign and (David T.C. Davies), as I want to speak about prison 625 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 626 reform. I am aware that many people in prison fully people up and get them to a position where they can go deserve to be there because they have committed heinous back into society, hold down a responsible job and start crimes. I do not argue that prison does not work—it giving back to the community, as opposed to taking does, as people in prison are not on the street committing away from the community. That is why it is so important crimes—but too often we see the revolving door in that when people are in prison, we do something with action. By that I mean that people go to prison for a them on the educational and training front. We must period, but that most of the 48 per cent. of prisoners give them the skills that they require to go and compete who reoffend within a year of release are simply sent in the jobs market. back again. Among youngsters, the proportion who I am all in favour of building more prisons in the reoffend within a year and end up back in prison is as short to medium term, because unless we relieve prison high as 75 per cent. overcrowding, we will not be able to address the underlying That is not good value for the taxpayer. The prison causes of reoffending. When prisons are overcrowded, population is a captive audience, and that means that it becomes purely a management issue for prison officers we must do something with them. I know that some and the governors, as opposed to a rehabilitation issue. progress has been made in that direction, but a great So let us, in the short to medium term, build more deal more remains to be done. Some 50 per cent. of prisons so that we can start to have the space in the prisoners have literacy and numeracy rates that are criminal justice system to rehabilitate people back into lower than an 11-year-old’s, and they are simply incapable society, instead of sending out better criminals. Indeed, of functioning in the real world. A survey found that it is debatable whether we are sending out better criminals. half of all prisoners were not qualified to do 96 per To get into prison in the first place, they have to be cent. of the jobs available outside prison, in the community. caught, so they are not learning their skills from particularly So we really must do something with the people who are bright operators. in prison: we need to work on them to make them better It is important, going ahead, that as we clean up our people and to allow them to become fulfilled people communities and make society a safer place, we start to able to turn their backs on crime address seriously the revolving door of prison. Let us be When I came to Parliament, I was not a very moderate sure that when people go to prison for a significant or relaxed person. I very much believed that people in period, we use that time to make that prisoner a better prison fully deserved to be there, for as long and as person. Certainly, punish them. Having their liberty often as possible, but 10 per cent. of our current prison removed is a punishment. For many of these people, population—a total of 8,000 people—formerly served going to drug treatment classes— in our armed forces. These are people who made significant sacrifices for this country, so why are they now in David Taylor: The hon. Gentleman will have heard prison? How did we let them down so badly that they the comments from the hon. Member for Monmouth ended up there? Many more will follow unless we do (David T.C. Davies). If prisoners are showing evidence something about the problem. We in this place know that they are benefiting from rehabilitation and their that many young men who have served in Afghanistan behaviour is improving, does he believe that the concept and Iraq in recent history are now in prison. Somewhere, of remission of sentence should be retained in the therefore, we are letting those brave young people down, Prison Service? His colleague seemed to suggest that it and it is a scandal that 8,000 current prisoners used to should be abandoned. be in our armed forces. Furthermore, prisons have become warehouses for Mr. Walker: I am not here to fall out with any the mentally ill. We closed down the asylums 30 years colleague. Parole for good behaviour is positive. If people ago and moved many of the people into prisons. Some go to prison for five years and are then told that they 40 or 50 per cent. of prisoners have undiagnosed mental will serve six years unless they demonstrate good behaviour, health problems. I am not saying that people with the switch is to a negative approach to managing prisoners. mental health problems cannot do bad things. Of course We need a rewards-based system, and good behaviour they can. However, I am saying that mental health should result in early release—not obscenely early release, problems can be a significant contributory factor to but certainly early release. I am not arguing for a softer people making the wrong choices in life, and consistently approach to prisoners. I believe that we should be tough making the wrong choices in life. on crime and tough on the causes of crime. Right now Prison will not be a deterrent to an undiagnosed or we are not being tough on the causes of crime because untreated schizophrenic, so when we have people in we are not addressing low educational attainment, addiction prison who are ill, let us do something to help them. Let rates or mental health problems. us do something to make them better. Every year that I know that time is short, so I shall conclude. We have they spend in prison costs taxpayers £40,000. As my to be brave in promoting prison reform. There are not a hon. Friend pointed out, if we let prisoners out unreformed lot of votes in it for any of us, but it is the right thing to and untreated, they do a lot more damage in society for do, because we want to make the communities that we the period that they are out of prison, then they go back represent safer places. When we keep turning back out to prison time and again and cost us a further £40,000 into these communities criminals who are unreformed, each time. This is not good enough. who remain violent, who remain ill, who remain addicted, My hon. Friend also pointed out that many prisoners they are just as dangerous or even more dangerous than suffer from drug addiction problems, and we know that before we sent them to prison. So I hope all Members drug addiction leads people to commit serious criminal will approach prison reform with open-mindedness and offences. The scandal is that more people come out of courage. If we get it right in the long term, there will be prison as drug addicts than go in, so we need treatment a consequential saving to taxpayers, and our communities programmes in prison to ensure that we clean these will be safer places in which to live. 627 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 628

6.10 pm 600,000 such households, equating to 3 per cent. of all households, of which 500,000 had at least one member Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I am of working age. By 2007-08, the overall numbers had, very glad to be following the hon. Member for indeed, doubled to 1.2 million, or 4 per cent. of households, Broxbourne (Mr. Walker), as I am certainly more on but the figure for household members of working age his wavelength than that of the hon. Member for had not increased significantly at all: it was still about Monmouth (David T.C. Davies). 600,000, or 2 per cent. of households. One thing that has always dismayed me during my If there was any story from those figures, it was the time as a Member of this House is the misuse or large increase in the number of pensioner households ignoring of evidence in order to justify unjustifiable that receive benefits of more than £15,000 per annum. policies. One particularly bad example involves drugs The number had increased from 100,000 to 600,000 policies, and both Front Benches are guilty in that during the period in question. That is not a twofold or regard. That is not what I intend to talk about today, threefold increase, but a sixfold increase, so why did the however. I want to concentrate on a particularly bad right hon. Member for Maidenhead not congratulate example of the misuse of statistics. the Government on helping the most vulnerable pensioners, On 13 November, articles about household benefits those with disabilities and extensive care needs? The appeared in a number of the tabloids. The Daily Express headline should have read “Labour pride”, not “Labour carried the headline “Shameless Labour. Toll of families shame”. on £15,000 benefits doubles to 1.2 million since Labour On the numbers of households receiving more than came to power”. The article went on to say: £20,000, the figures are so low as to be meaningless. The “Last night, critics described the massive handouts as a grim table from the written answer on the number of households indictment of the flourishing welfare dependency culture fostered with persons of working age gives the following percentages: by Gordon Brown. The statistics sparked new anger about the growing burden on the working population, having to pay for 1997-98, 1 per cent.; 1998-99, 1 per cent.; 1999-2000, claimants languishing in a lifetime of taxpayers-subsidised indolence.” 0 per cent.; 2000-01, 0 per cent.; 2001-02, 1 per cent.; 2003-04, 1 per cent.; 2004-05, 1 per cent.; 2005-06, 1 per In the article, housing benefit, incapacity benefit and cent.; 2006-07, 1 per cent.; and 2007-08, 1 per cent. Only jobseeker’s allowance were all described as “handouts”. if pensioner households are included does the percentage Only at the end of the article was it mentioned that the rise to 2 per cent. or 3 per cent. figures included pensioners, the disabled and people caring for the elderly and infirm. There is a similar story on housing benefit. The Tories have put out scare stories about the increase in Another tabloid, the Daily Mail, had the headline the housing benefit bill, but given that the number of “Benefits Britain”. The article went on to say: social homes has decreased by 1 million since 1995, “The number of families raking in more than £12,000 a year in making more people dependent on the private sector, it benefits has trebled since Labour came to power, figures showed is not surprising that the bill has gone up. yesterday. Britain’s culture of spiralling welfare dependency means 300,000 households now receive that figure or more in benefits—up I think that I have established beyond doubt that the from 100,000 in 1997. A worker would have to earn £27,000 a year Opposition are not averse to misusing statistics. Their to take home £20,000.” leader did so in his speech to their party conference, The headline in The Sun was “300,000 coin £20k in maligning the Labour Government on poverty while benefit bonanza”, with the newspaper suggesting that conveniently forgetting the huge rise in poverty under that was more than many workers take home. Even the the Tories. Thank God they have not been in power Daily Mirror agreed: through the recent recession. “The number of families on £20,000 a year in welfare handouts It is particularly odious to misuse statistics in a way has risen threefold”. that pillories vulnerable people and panders to the The source of these stories was information obtained lowest form of populism. We have seen the Tories from a written parliamentary question from the right hon. recently put about completely unwarranted scare stories Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May), who was extensively about the Government taking away disability living quoted in the aforementioned articles as saying: allowance and attendance allowance from pensioners. Then the next day, as I have shown, the same people—those “These figures show the shocking growth of a dependency culture under Labour. The Government needs to get to grips with pensioners—are portrayed as undeserving and a part of Britain’s benefit culture and radically reform our welfare system. the dependency culture. It’s hardly surprising that so many people spend their lives on The Tories have tried to portray themselves as caring benefits when in some cases they can get as much on benefits as and honest, but in reality we see that they are still the many people earn in work.” nasty party, with the hon. Member for Monmouth But the figures do not show a shocking growth in being the exemplar par excellence. dependency. They are taken from the family resources survey, and they are rounded to the nearest 100,000 of 6.19 pm population. It is not therefore valid, for example, to Nadine Dorries (Mid-Bedfordshire) (Con): The speeches describe a change from 100,000 to 200,000 as a doubling. that we have heard today have oscillated between both Those figures could mask a change from 149,000 to ends of the spectrum in terms of quality, and this 151,000, which is hardly a change at all. As the Library evening I will attempt to make my own small contribution. specialist told me, it is better to look at the percentage I was incredibly disappointed with the Home Office of households for which the change is less dramatic, if it aspect of the Crime and Security Bill, because I should exists at all. very much have liked it to cover two particular areas: Let us first look at the number of households that the UK’s current drug problems, about which there said that they receive more than £15,000. Based on should have been greater detail; and the lack of trust rounded-up survey samples in 1997-98, there were about between the police and the community. 629 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 630

I begin by talking about the drug problems that we Nadine Dorries: I absolutely agree. That is partly why face in the UK. The charity Addaction estimates that it is so difficult to calculate the true extent of the drug-related crime costs this country £110 billion a problem. However, the figures that my hon. Friend year. Of course, it is almost impossible to calculate the quoted, and other figures, reveal the depth of the problem actual cost because there is a huge personal cost in that we are dealing with. terms of families, lost lives, and children and teenagers It is a shame that in their final Gracious Speech, the who become addicted to drugs and then go on to have Government have produced a Bill that deals with clamping lives that are meaningless. The figure of £110 billion is and antisocial behaviour, but not with the worst antisocial incredibly large—although it may even be on the behaviour that we face, which is a result of the drug conservative side—given the economic crisis and the problem. It is a huge shame that they have missed this Government’s having to look at public spending in golden opportunity to make a better society and deal various Departments. One would therefore have thought with a problem that they have tried, and failed the Bill might do something to deal with the problem. comprehensively, to deal with over the past 12 years. It Let us look at what the Government’s strategy has was a golden opportunity to say to the people of the been over the past 12 years. Shortly after they came to nation, “We understand the drug problem. We understand power, they introduced a 10-year strategy to combat the that there are many victims of crime as a result of misuse of drugs. Ten years later, they issued another drugs, so we are going to produce some really good strategy that was almost identical to the first one. It was treatment programmes, such as abstinence.” about maintaining and containing the drugs problem. I wish to touch on the erosion of the community’s It was not about dealing with or reducing the problem, trust in the police. That may be because of the de but managing it. That is borne out by the number of Menezes shooting or police storming into the offices of methadone prescriptions, which have gone up by 71 per an MP without a search warrant or permission in a cent. In 2007, there were 1 million prescriptions; in politically motivated manner. It may be because the 2008, there were 1.8 million. That huge increase proves police are arresting people to take DNA without their in itself that the whole strategy is about maintenance. permission. No Home Office Bill can be implemented We know—because it has been proven by a rehabilitation without the people having trust in the police. Without centre in Stevenage that has a 70 per cent. success communities working with the police, there is almost no rate—that the only way to deal with a young person’s point in bringing forward a Home Office Bill, because it drug problem is abstinence. That means putting them will be impossible to implement. into rehabilitation, removing their source of drugs, What can we do to improve trust in the police? We making them go through cold turkey, and giving them can make them more accountable to the people. When I the support that they need. That has never been this write to my chief constable with a complaint from a Government’s policy; despite its being a proven treatment constituent, somebody else writes back to me—an allocated method that works, it has never been adopted. Yet they department or another officer. Nobody in the police is are also the Government who declassified cannabis and accountable to the general public on a day-to-day, issue- then reclassified it as a class A drug. Their message to by-issue basis. young people has been one of total confusion. They say, “Cannabis is not as serious as we thought it was. Oh yes, The Crime and Security Bill would have been fantastic whoops, sorry, it is—we’re going to reclassify it as class if it had somewhere in it the introduction of an elected A. We’re not going to do anything about treatment for police commissioner or some way of making the police the addiction or about the people at the school gate, the accountable to the people. The argument that Labour drug pushers, peddlers and pimps—we’re just going to Members frequently give is that that would mean up the number of methadone prescriptions and give politicisation of the police, and that if we bring politics people an alternative to the drugs that they’ve been into the police force at local level we will be doomed. taking all this time.” That is not a solution, and it is part However, the announcement by the Association of Chief of what is breaking down our society. Police Officers this weekend that it wanted to introduce a register of men who have been reported for committing When I recently visited Styal women’s prison, every two or more domestic violence attacks was politicisation. single offender was in there for a drug-related crime. My It shows the police acting in a political manner and hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker) considering something that will appease the Government talked about the need to create more prisons. If we dealt of the day. It is not a policy that says, “Let’s introduce with the drug problem properly—in a way that worked, something that will get rid of all the drug pushers at the using abstinence and rehabilitation on a day-care or school gates at 4 o’clock every day.” residential basis—we would not need to build extra prisons because the drug-related crime numbers would So why not use the Bill to bring in elected police fall and we would not need those extra spaces. The commissioners, who people could go to the polls to vote financial cost of crime would also be reduced considerably, for at the same time as voting for us? Then when and we would be a much better society as a result. It is something went wrong in a particular area and the MP not only about the young people whose lives are lost as or the general public wanted to hold someone to account, a result of drugs, but about the people who are victims they could go to that directly elected commissioner. He of the crimes committed in pursuit of the drugs needed or she in turn could hold the local police board to to sustain a habit. account. We do not have that, and it is another golden opportunity missed in the Bill. Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Does my In my constituency, I suffer with the problem of hon. Friend recognise that there are 5.5 million crimes clamping, which is covered in the Bill, on residential in which the characters who committed them have been streets as well as in areas owned by the local authority. caught and punished, but 4.5 million criminals are not People come to my surgery on a weekly basis with yet caught? That is the problem. stories of hardship about how they have been dealt 631 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 632

[Nadine Dorries] or that there are serious social issues challenging this country. All the Government are interested in is wiping with. As the hon. Member for Milton Keynes, South-West out the past 12 years and harking back to what many (Dr. Starkey) said, people who do not have the financial voters will see, frankly, as ancient history.This Government wherewithal to pay the £150 on-the-spot fine can suffer will be judged on their record and their plans for the hardship as a result. Once they pay the fine, some future and, on any analysis, they will be found wanting. cannot keep their car, and some may not be able to keep their job. They are people who are living on the edge Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Does my and trying to keep together their home and livelihood, right hon. Friend think it a bit rich to be lectured by the and they find themselves suddenly having to pay £150 hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones) to get their car back. If they have to borrow that money about raising the legitimate concerns of pensioners and as they do not have it that day, the cost escalates and is disabled people? She represents a party that in 1997 ramped up. If the Bill is used to protect those people launched its election campaign with a big lie: that from that hardship, that will be a good move. However, Conservatives would abolish the state pension. It was a that is the only thing in the Bill that I can see will be of lie then and it is a lie now. any particular use to people who are looking for something to make their life a little more crime-free and a little Mrs. May: My hon. Friend is absolutely right about easier. the tactics the Labour party used in that election, and I I will therefore sit down and bemoan the fact that the will come to the points that were made about disability Government have not even acknowledged that abstinence benefits by the hon. Members for Birmingham, Selly programmes work, and that they have not put anything Oak (Lynne Jones) and for Glasgow, East (John Mason). in the Bill to point up that directly elected police The Labour party approach of harking back to the commissioners would be a good idea and something to past was also followed by the hon. Members for Sedgefield debate in the House. I hope they use the Bill to produce (Phil Wilson) and for Jarrow (Mr. Hepburn), although something to make people’s lives better which, ironically, the latter also spoke about the campaign—[Interruption.] would be on the issue of the clamping of cars. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We cannot have this sort 6.30 pm of behaviour from those on the Front Bench. Mrs. Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con): The subjects of today’s debate on the Gracious Speech affect the Mrs. May: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was day-to-day lives of our constituents across the country: pointing out that the approach of harking back to the crime and disorder, antisocial behaviour, worklessness, past was followed by the hon. Members for Sedgefield benefit dependency and violence against women. Those and for Jarrow, but the latter also referred to his long- issues blight too many lives, and the challenges must be standing campaign on pleural plaques. addressed by the next Government, but that requires There were a number of thoughtful contributions to change. Above all, the Queen’s Speech and this debate the debate on the subject of violence against women have shown that this Government understand neither and the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (John the need for change nor the depth of change needed, Austin) made a very thoughtful speech. He rightly and they certainly do not have the vision or ideas to do commended the white ribbon campaign and highlighted what is necessary to tackle those issues. the importance of involving men in the work to end The debate was marked, as expected in a debate on violence against women. He reminded us that violence the Queen’s Speech, by the variety of issues that have against women takes many forms, a theme that was been addressed by hon. Members. It was also notable echoed by my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes for the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Glasgow, (Mr. Steen), whom I commend on his valuable work as North-East (Mr. Bain), who unfortunately is no longer chairman of the all-party group on human trafficking, in the Chamber. Making a maiden speech is daunting which is—as he said in his speech—the new slavery. enough for new Members following a general election, My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate but at least at that time there is some safety in numbers. (Mr. Burrowes) also reminded us of the impact of Making a maiden speech is far more daunting and violence in various forms against women in certain lonely for new Members who come in following a communities, including the Asian community, and the by-election, but I think he passed with flying colours. It importance of working with local communities to combat was clear from his speech that he has immense pride in that violence. the fact that he is representing his home constituency. On the issue of crime, my hon. Friend the Member He spoke with wit and humour, and we look forward to for North-West Cambridgeshire (Mr. Vara) reminded hearing much more from him in future. us of the need to get more police on the streets. As he The debate was ably opened by my hon. Friend the pointed out, Labour promised, in its 1997 manifesto, Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), who that police would be on the beat, but the average police forensically identified the ways in which the Government constable today spends only 14 per cent. of their time have failed to live up to their promises on crime, antisocial on the beat and 21 per cent. of their time on paperwork— behaviour and welfare reform. When the Home Secretary another Government failure. stood up, I expected an equally analytical response, but Several hon. Members spoke about issues of particular far from that, it was a full 15 minutes before he even got interest to them: the hon. Member for Northampton, to talking about the Queen’s Speech. He gave us what is North (Ms Keeble) spoke about alcohol sales and my coming to be the all-too-predictable Labour response, hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Nadine which is to say, “But it was all worse in the ’80s.” Never Dorries) addressed drugs and their impact on people’s mind that the Government have not met their promises, lives. She referred to the failure of this Government in 633 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 634 that area, and I have a very good drug rehabilitation country forward. Nowhere is that more clear perhaps centre in my constituency, Yeldall Manor, which is a than in their failure to have a plan to tackle the debt long-term residential centre. It has an excellent record crisis and a radical strategy to tackle the jobs crisis. of getting people off drugs and turning their lives Let us consider the Government’s record on welfare around, but because of the way in which the Government reform. Having promised to be the party of welfare fund drug support, it is unable to fill all its beds. That is reform in 1997 and having asked the right hon. Member sad, because it could make a valuable contribution to for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) to “think the unthinkable”, people’s lives. they abandoned real welfare reform for more than a My hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne decade. Even when David Freud—now sitting on our (Mr. Walker) spoke thoughtfully about prison reform. Benches in the other place, as the noble Lord Freud— The hon. Member for Glasgow, East (John Mason) produced his report on welfare reform, the Government raised the important issue of the Government’s proposals pushed it to one side and did nothing, and only produced to pay for their national care service by scrapping their limited proposals for reform after my hon. Friend disability benefits for pensioners. The hon. Member the Member for Epsom and Ewell published our green for Birmingham, Selly Oak dismissed that claim as paper with radical ideas for welfare reform. Once again, unwarranted, and the Minister for Employment and therefore, the Government followed our lead, but once Welfare Reform has said that it was untrue. I can only again failed to take the necessary steps to make the assume that they, and any other Labour Member who radical changes needed. says that it is untrue, have not read the Government’s Let us remind the House of the figures: unemployment Green Paper on social care, because every option, apart is at nearly 2.5 million, and while the recession has had from the option of people paying for social care themselves, an impact, we must never forget that the country entered is underpinned by some use of disability benefits. the recession with nearly 5 million on out-of-work Furthermore, the Under-Secretary for Work and Pensions benefits. Youth unemployment is at a record level; one in the other place, Lord McKenzie of Luton has said: in five young people is out of work; the cost of incapacity “My Lords, the Green Paper, Shaping the Future of Care benefit is now higher than in 1997, when Labour came Together, proposed that one way to deal with the challenge of an to power; in some communities in this country, more ageing society may be to bring some disability benefits and the than half of working-age adults are out of work and new care and support system together into a single system as a dependent on benefits; and worklessness has cost about better way of providing support. At this stage, we do not want to £350 billion in benefits over the past 12 years. That is rule out any options and so are considering all disability benefits.”— [Official Report, House of Lords, 13 October 2009; Vol. 713, the cost of the Government’s failure to reform welfare. c. 112.] One of the saddest and most damning indictments of The hon. Member for Glasgow, East raised the important the Labour Government is their failure to do anything point that disability benefits, such as attendance allowance about the large number of long-term unemployed people and disability living allowance for the over-65s, give on incapacity benefit. Of course, some on IB are unable those who receive them the option of deciding how to to work, and they should be supported, but many who use that money for the care that they want and that suits claim it can, and want to, work. They need the individualised their needs. The Government are proposing to take that support that will help them to overcome barriers to individual decision making away from pensioners and work and get them into jobs. Our work programme— to say to them, “We won’t let you decide what care you should have; we will tell you what care you will have, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and it’s going to be what the Government decide you and Pensions (): That’s what they get. should have.” That would be a retrograde step. There were also some lighter moments in the debate. Mrs. May: I hear the Minister’s remark from a sedentary The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), as well position. However, under the Government’s flexible as appearing to do a complete U-turn on the Liberal new deal, over-50s on IB and assessed as able to work Democrats’ policy on the DNA database, expounded will get one work-focused interview, and under-50s on the wonderful new policy of a regional points-based IB will get three work-focused interviews. That is not system for work permits. He said that that would work the individualised support that those people need to in the UK because it works in Australia. He needs to go overcome barriers and enter the workplace. and take some geography lessons if he thinks that that Under our work programme, and our “get Britain is a valid point. working” policy, we will ensure that people on IB who We also had a characteristically forceful speech from are judged fit and able to work will be referred straightaway my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David to the specialist help of welfare-to-work providers, who T.C. Davies), who managed to cover crime, antisocial will deliver a programme of support that meets their behaviour, prisons, immigration, political correctness needs and gets them into work. That sort of vision will and the Human Rights Act. I am not sure whether it make a real change to people’s lives. Are the Government was going from the sublime to the ridiculous or the giving that help? No. Only a Conservative Government other way round when he was followed by the hon. would provide the support needed to help people on IB Member for Milton Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey), into work. who proceeded to speak about wheel-clamping. I can Let us briefly consider youth unemployment. In a tell her that I know about the problems of wheel-clamping speech last week, the Prime Minister announced a from cases in my constituency. range of measures, such as offering internships and At the core of this debate lies the Government’s other opportunities to graduates who have been unemployed failure to deliver on their promises over 12 years and for six months, but we think that all young people their inability to develop the thinking needed to take the should be given specialised help to get them into work 635 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 636

[Mrs. May] working. It is important that we make work more family friendly, rather than simply helping family members after six months. Once again, we see the paucity of the go into work. My hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield Government’s ambitions. Whether it is rising levels of (Phil Wilson) talked about the importance of support gun crime, increased numbers of persistent young offenders for the economy. or rising IB claims, the Government have failed to meet The hon. Member for Glasgow, East (John Mason) their promises and abandoned too many of our fellow talked about social care and disability benefits. It is citizens. They have run out of ideas, have no answers to important to be clear about that, because there has been the challenges facing the country and have nothing left a lot of scaremongering on the issue, which is not to offer. It is time for a fresh start and approach, and for responsible. We want to expand social care and support the change that this country needs—change that can for those who are vulnerable, but it is important to come only with a Conservative Government. understand that the Personal Care at Home Bill, which forms part of the Queen’s Speech, will have no impact 6.44 pm at all on any disability benefits and will be paid for by changes throughout the Department of Health. In addition, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Yvette we have said that those who are on disability benefits Cooper): We have had a serious, thoughtful and wide- will not lose out as we look for longer-term changes and ranging debate today on the Queen’s Speech, covering that we support expanding individual budgets, which subjects ranging from wheel clamps to prison reform, are extremely important. I agree with the hon. Gentleman and from housing benefit to pleural plaques. that it is important to give people control over the kind Let me start by welcoming my hon. Friend the Member of care that they need in future. for Glasgow, North-East (Mr. Bain), who made his maiden speech in the Chamber today. We congratulate Steve Webb (Northavon) (LD): Going further than him both on his election to the House and on the great that, I understand that the Health Secretary has ruled pride with which he spoke about his constituency, the out taking away disability living allowance for future community that he grew up in, his ambitions for his cases, but the same guarantee has not been made for community and his plans to keep campaigning on jobs attendance allowance. Can the Secretary of State clarify for young people and improving his community and his whether that is deliberate? In other words, is attendance area. I look forward to working with him on those allowance safe for future new claimants? issues. It is also worth noting the warmth with which many Yvette Cooper: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of hon. Members in today’s debate welcomed my hon. State for Health has said that we do not think that Friend and congratulated him on his speech. The first working age disability living allowance should be connected person to welcome him was the hon. Member for Totnes with the care system, which is about looking at older (Mr. Steen), who paid a warm tribute to our new people’s needs. We want to look at what the future links Member and also raised the important issue of human should be and how we expand care beyond the care and trafficking. I congratulate him on the work that he has support currently provided by the benefits system and done over many years on the issue. He talked about the local councils, but in a way that increases the support UK Human Trafficking Centre. As I understand it, the available and protects people who receive it under the Home Office has no plans to close the centre or merge it current system. That is the right thing to do, and the with any other organisation, but I will raise his points hon. Gentleman will know that the position has been with the Home Secretary, so that he knows what they set out in detail for debate and consultation as part of are too. the Bill. The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) raised Mr. Steen: I thank the Secretary of State for that the slightly curious spectre of border controls at Watford statement. The 53 staff up in Sheffield are greatly Gap or halfway along the M62, between Lancashire concerned that they will be merged with either the UK and Yorkshire, which might have slightly more support Border Agency or the Serious Organised Crime Agency from some quarters. He seemed to be suggesting a here in London. Both would be a mistake, so I am very regional points-based system and border controls. glad that she will raise the matter with the Home Secretary. Chris Huhne rose—

Yvette Cooper: The hon. Gentleman has made an Yvette Cooper: I will allow the hon. Gentleman the important point. The advice that I have received from opportunity to clarify. the Home Office is that that is not the plan, but he will be able to take the matter further. Chris Huhne: The Secretary of State is far too intelligent I also welcome the points made by my hon. Friend to have misunderstood my remarks. I specifically said the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (John Austin), that my proposal would apply to work-place checks on who referred to the issue of human trafficking as well as employers. There is no question of border controls. making important points about domestic violence and other issues raised by the Queen’s Speech. Yvette Cooper: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s Several hon. Members raised issues to do with alcohol, recommitment to freedom of movement within the including my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, United Kingdom, because at a certain point in his North (Ms Keeble) and the hon. Member for Enfield, remarks earlier he seemed to be committing himself to Southgate (Mr. Burrowes). I agree with my hon. Friend adding regional points for different regional skills shortages on the importance of supporting more family-friendly to the draft immigration Bill. 637 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 638

The hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker) made children whom we should support. That is what our a thoughtful speech on prison reform, while my hon. proposals in the Queen’s Speech and the Child Poverty Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, South-West Bill are all about. (Dr. Starkey) and the hon. Member for Mid-Bedfordshire The Queen’s Speech supports children, as the Child (Nadine Dorries) both raised issues around wheel-clamping, Poverty Bill sets in place the historic ambition to cut which I know we will have an opportunity to debate further. child poverty and end it by 2020. We have already lifted My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly 500,000 out of relative poverty, with a further 500,000 Oak (Lynne Jones) pointed out many of the disingenuous due to be lifted out of it by the measures we have ways in which Opposition Members have used statistics brought in this year and last year. to support their image of a broken Britain, which their Helping people back to work is another important policies would, in fact, break further. element. Families across Britain are being hit by the The hon. Member for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies) recession. The world financial crisis has caused the shouted at us all with great enthusiasm. He said that he biggest shock to our economy for very many generations, did not believe the British Crime Survey and he refused but despite the recession and despite the big increase in to accept it. He said that he preferred hospital statistics the number of full-time students, the proportion of instead. If he wants to refer to hospital statistics, I working-age households where no one works has, in should point out to him that they, too, showa6per fact, fallen since 1997. The proportion of households of cent. decrease between 2007 and 2008 in admissions for working age with no one in work is, I repeat, still lower assault with a sharp object. I hope that he will accept than it was in 1997 as a result of what the Conservatives that that shows crime is falling, even if he does not want had done before that year. That contrasts with what we to accept the British Crime Survey. have done to help people back into work, to help lone parents back into work even while unemployment is The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) rising and to help people on long-term sickness benefits gave us his account of the broken Britain that he sees all get the support and treatment they need. around him. What we did not see from him, as my right We want to do more to help young people because we hon. Friend the Home Secretary pointed out, was any know that they are most heavily affected during a more information on his new plans for official forms. In recession. That is why, last week, the Prime Minister set The Sunday Times he said: out additional support to help young people from the “Marriage has almost disappeared from official documents. I moment they enter the jobcentre, and from the moment think that should change.” they become unemployed. We would have liked to hear more from him on that, The action that we have taken has already made a because it would be interesting to know whether, under significant difference. Unemployment is currently about a Conservative Government, people will not be able to 400,000 lower than independent forecasters expected at get a driving licence unless they have told the Driver the time of the Budget, saving us billions of pounds. and Vehicle Licensing Agency whether they are married; That is partly the result of our extra support for the or whether they will not be able to submit a planning economy, and partly the result of the £5 billion extra application to extend their house, until they have told help for the unemployed—£2.1 billion this year, and the council whether they have walked down the aisle; or £2.9 billion next year—to get them back into work. whether people will not be able to get a library card That is £5 billion that Conservative Members have until they have told the librarian whether their husband repeatedly refused to support. has gone off with someone else. [Interruption.] Conservative I will give the Opposition another opportunity tonight Members are saying, “How silly, how ridiculous,” and I to say whether they will support that additional investment agree, but it was their honourable Front-Bench spokesperson in jobcentres, and in getting young people back into who proposed this and it was their honourable Front-Bench work. Time and again, we have asked them to support spokesperson who, coming from a party that pretends that £5 billion, and time and again they have refused. I to care and to complain about big government, put first asked the right hon. Member for Maidenhead forward instead proposals that sound rather more like (Mrs. May) in April last year, and she refused to support Big Brother. the extra investment to help people into work. I asked Let me tell the hon. Gentleman that there is a serious her again in May, June, July and September. I even tried point here. If he is suggesting that children applying to asking the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe schools should now have to put on their application (Mr. Clarke) in October, and he also refused to support it. forms information about whether or not their parents Time and again, the Conservatives have refused to are married, I do not think that it is a good idea—and I back the extra £5 billion that we need to help people to do not think it is a good idea for the children, either. I get back into work. That is discretionary spending—not am married, and I think it is great for people to be automatic stabilisers, and not funded by cuts in married, as strong relationships are important for children, departmental spending elsewhere. It is part of the temporary but strong families come in all shapes and sizes. Unlike discretionary spending that the Conservative party has the Conservative party, I do not believe that a child opposed. It is borrowing to support the economy, and it should be told that his family is second-class because it is helping to reduce unemployment. Unemployment is does not have a married couple at the heart of it. In the now 400,000 lower than forecast at the time of the end, that is at the core of the hon. Gentleman’s statements Budget last year. As a result of our investment, about marriage and the Conservative party’s proposals unemployment is lower than expected, and lower than to put forward tax breaks for marriage and support for in previous recessions, but the Conservative party opposes it. marriage in the benefit system at the expense of widows The former Monetary Policy Committee member, or at the expense of mums left literally holding the baby Professor Danny Blanchflower, has said that if we when their ex-husband walks off. I believe that it is followed the Conservative party’s policies and cut investment 639 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 640

[Yvette Cooper] Burrowes, Mr. David Hoban, Mr. Mark Burstow, Mr. Paul Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas in the middle of recession, we would potentially have Burt, Alistair Hollobone, Mr. Philip unemployment of 4 million or 5 million now. That Burt, Lorely Holloway, Mr. Adam would be devastating for families and individuals across Butterfill, Sir John Holmes, Paul the country. The £5 billion investment is putting more Cable, Dr. Vincent Horam, Mr. John Cameron, rh Mr. David Horwood, Martin staff into jobcentres to help people who are losing their Campbell, Mr. Gregory Howard, rh Mr. Michael jobs. In the 1980s, the Conservatives refused to put Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Howarth, David extra staff into jobcentres, and as a result made it Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Howarth, Mr. Gerald voluntary to sign on and even to go into jobcentres to Carswell, Mr. Douglas Howell, John look for work. Little wonder that unemployment, and Cash, Mr. William Hughes, Simon long-term unemployment, soared. Chope, Mr. Christopher Huhne, Chris Once again the Conservatives refuse to support the Clappison, Mr. James Hunt, Mr. Jeremy extra investment that is turning things around and Clark, Greg Hunter, Mark helping young people who would not otherwise have Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Jack, rh Mr. Michael got into jobs. Most shockingly of all, the Conservatives Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Jackson, Mr. Stewart Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Jenkin, Mr. Bernard want to abolish the future jobs fund. They do not want Curry, rh Mr. David Jones, Mr. David to help people across the country—100,000 young people, Davies, David T.C. Kawczynski, Daniel and 50,000 of the long-term unemployed—back into (Monmouth) Keetch, Mr. Paul work. We know why: they oppose big government. That Davies, Philip Key, Robert was the statement from the right hon. Member for Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Kirkbride, Miss Julie Witney (Mr. Cameron) earlier this month: Dodds, Mr. Nigel Knight, rh Mr. Greg “Human kindness, generosity and imagination are steadily Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Kramer, Susan being squeezed out by the work of the state.” Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Laing, Mrs. Eleanor That is an astonishing statement. Is that what those on Dorries, Nadine Lait, Mrs. Jacqui the Opposition Front Bench really think? Do they really Duddridge, James Lamb, Norman think that help for mums in Sure Start is killing kindness? Duncan, Alan Lancaster, Mr. Mark Dunne, Mr. Philip Lansley, Mr. Andrew Do they think that faster treatment through the NHS is Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Laws, Mr. David undermining generosity? Do they think that free entry Evans, Mr. Nigel Leech, Mr. John to museums is somehow crippling kids’ imagination? Evennett, Mr. David Leigh, Mr. Edward [Interruption.] That is what he said—that human kindness, Fabricant, Michael Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver generosity and imagination are steadily being squeezed Fallon, Mr. Michael Lewis, Dr. Julian out by the work of the state. Farron, Tim Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian The Conservatives want the state to withdraw, to Featherstone, Lynne Lidington, Mr. David force people to sink or swim, and to leave charities to Field, Mr. Mark Lilley, rh Mr. Peter pick up the pieces. The last time the Conservative party Foster, Mr. Don Loughton, Tim tried that was in the 1980s. Fox, Dr. Liam Luff, Peter Francois, Mr. Mark Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire) (Con): Fraser, Christopher Maclean, rh David claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Gale, Mr. Roger Main, Anne Garnier, Mr. Edward Mates, rh Mr. Michael Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put. Gauke, Mr. David May, rh Mrs. Theresa Question agreed to. George, Andrew McCrea, Dr. William Question put accordingly, That the amendment be Gidley, Sandra McIntosh, Miss Anne made. Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Goldsworthy, Julia Mercer, Patrick The House proceeded to a Division. Goodwill, Mr. Robert Miller, Mrs. Maria Gray, Mr. James Milton, Anne Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): I ask the Grayling, Chris Moore, Mr. Michael Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby. Green, Damian Moss, Mr. Malcolm The House having divided: Ayes 235, Noes 335. Greening, Justine Mulholland, Greg Division No. 2] [6.59 pm Greenway, Mr. John Mundell, David Grieve, Mr. Dominic Murrison, Dr. Andrew AYES Gummer, rh Mr. John Neill, Robert Hague, rh Mr. William Öpik, Lembit Afriyie, Adam Benyon, Mr. Richard Hammond, Mr. Philip Ottaway, Richard Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Binley, Mr. Brian Hammond, Stephen Paice, Mr. James Alexander, Danny Blunt, Mr. Crispin Hancock, Mr. Mike Penning, Mike Amess, Mr. David Bone, Mr. Peter Hands, Mr. Greg Penrose, John Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Boswell, Mr. Tim Pickles, Mr. Eric Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Bottomley, Peter Harper, Mr. Mark Atkinson, Mr. Peter Brady, Mr. Graham Harris, Dr. Evan Prisk, Mr. Mark Bacon, Mr. Richard Brake, Tom Harvey, Nick Pritchard, Mark Baker, Norman Brazier, Mr. Julian Hayes, Mr. John Pugh, Dr. John Baldry, Tony Brokenshire, James Heath, Mr. David Redwood, rh Mr. John Barker, Gregory Brooke, Annette Heathcoat-Amory, rh Reid, Mr. Alan Baron, Mr. John Browne, Mr. Jeremy Mr. David Rennie, Willie Barrett, John Browning, Angela Hemming, John Robathan, Mr. Andrew Beith, rh Sir Alan Bruce, rh Malcolm Hendry, Charles Robertson, Hugh Bellingham, Mr. Henry Burns, Mr. Simon Herbert, Nick Robertson, Mr. Laurence 641 Debate on the Address25 NOVEMBER 2009 Debate on the Address 642

Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Timpson, Mr. Edward Cummings, John Hope, Phil Rogerson, Dan Tredinnick, David Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hopkins, Kelvin Rosindell, Andrew Turner, Mr. Andrew Cunningham, Tony Howarth, rh Mr. George Rowen, Paul Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Howells, rh Dr. Kim Russell, Bob Vaizey, Mr. Edward David, Mr. Wayne Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Sanders, Mr. Adrian Vara, Mr. Shailesh Davidson, Mr. Ian Humble, Mrs. Joan Scott, Mr. Lee Viggers, Sir Peter Davies, Mr. Dai Hutton, rh Mr. John Selous, Andrew Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Davies, Mr. Quentin Iddon, Dr. Brian Shapps, Grant Walker, Mr. Charles Dean, Mrs. Janet Illsley, Mr. Eric Shepherd, Mr. Richard Wallace, Mr. Ben Denham, rh Mr. John Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Simmonds, Mark Waterson, Mr. Nigel Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Jackson, Glenda Simpson, David Watkinson, Angela Dismore, Mr. Andrew James, Mrs. Siân C. Simpson, Mr. Keith Webb, Steve Dobbin, Jim Jenkins, Mr. Brian Smith, Chloe Whittingdale, Mr. John Dobson, rh Frank Johnson, Ms Diana R. Smith, Sir Robert Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Jones, Mr. Kevan Soames, Mr. Nicholas Willetts, Mr. David Doran, Mr. Frank Jones, Lynne Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Williams, Mark Dowd, Jim Jones, Mr. Martyn Spicer, Sir Michael Williams, Mr. Roger Drew, Mr. David Jowell, rh Tessa Spink, Bob Williams, Stephen Durkan, Mark Joyce, Mr. Eric Spring, Mr. Richard Willis, Mr. Phil Eagle, Angela Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Stanley, rh Sir John Willott, Jenny Eagle, Maria Keeble, Ms Sally Steen, Mr. Anthony Wilshire, Mr. David Efford, Clive Keeley, Barbara Streeter, Mr. Gary Wilson, Mr. Rob Ellman, Mrs. Louise Keen, Alan Stuart, Mr. Graham Wilson, Sammy Engel, Natascha Keen, Ann Stunell, Andrew Winterton, Ann Ennis, Jeff Kemp, Mr. Fraser Swayne, Mr. Desmond Winterton, Sir Nicholas Etherington, Bill Kennedy, rh Jane Swinson, Jo Wright, Jeremy Farrelly, Paul Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Swire, Mr. Hugo Yeo, Mr. Tim Field, rh Mr. Frank Kidney, Mr. David Syms, Mr. Robert Young, rh Sir George Fisher, Mark Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Tapsell, Sir Peter Younger-Ross, Richard Fitzpatrick, , rh Jim Taylor, Mr. Ian Tellers for the Ayes: Flello, Mr. Robert Kumar, Dr. Ashok Teather, Sarah Mr. Stephen Crabb and Flint, rh Caroline Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Thurso, John Bill Wiggin Flynn, Paul Lammy, rh Mr. David Follett, Barbara Laxton, Mr. Bob Foster, Mr. Michael Lazarowicz, Mark NOES (Worcester) Lepper, David Ainger, Nick Browne, rh Des Foster, Michael Jabez Levitt, Tom Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Bryant, Chris (Hastings and Rye) Lewis, Mr. Ivan Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Buck, Ms Karen Francis, Dr. Hywel Linton, Martin Allen, Mr. Graham Burden, Richard Gapes, Mike Lloyd, Tony Anderson, Mr. David Burgon, Colin Gardiner, Barry Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Anderson, Janet Burnham, rh Andy George, rh Mr. Bruce Love, Mr. Andrew Atkins, Charlotte Butler, Ms Dawn Gerrard, Mr. Neil Lucas, Ian Austin, Mr. Ian Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Gilroy, Linda Mackinlay, Andrew Austin, John Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Godsiff, Mr. Roger MacNeil, Mr. Angus Bailey, Mr. Adrian Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Goggins, rh Paul MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Bain, Mr. William Cairns, David Goodman, Helen Mactaggart, Fiona Baird, Vera Campbell, Mr. Alan Griffith, Nia Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Balls, rh Ed Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Griffiths, Nigel Mallaber, Judy Banks, Gordon Caton, Mr. Martin Grogan, Mr. John Mann, John Barlow, Ms Celia Cawsey, Mr. Ian Gwynne, Andrew Marris, Rob Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Challen, Colin Hall, Mr. Mike Marsden, Mr. Gordon Battle, rh John Chapman, Ben Hall, Patrick Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Bayley, Hugh Chaytor, Mr. David Hamilton, Mr. David Martlew, Mr. Eric Beckett, rh Margaret Clapham, Mr. Michael Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Mason, John Begg, Miss Anne Clark, Ms Katy Hanson, rh Mr. David McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Bell, Sir Stuart Clark, Paul Harman, rh Ms Harriet McCabe, Steve Benn, rh Hilary Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Harris, Mr. Tom McCafferty, Chris Benton, Mr. Joe Clarke,rhMr.Tom Havard, Mr. Dai McCarthy, Kerry Berry, Roger Clelland, Mr. David Healey, rh John McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Betts, Mr. Clive Clwyd, rh Ann Henderson, Mr. Doug McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Blackman, Liz Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hendrick, Mr. Mark McDonagh, Siobhain Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Coffey, Ann Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Blears, rh Hazel Connarty, Michael Heppell, Mr. John McFall, rh John Blizzard, Mr. Bob Cooper, Rosie Hesford, Stephen McGovern, Mr. Jim Borrow, Mr. David S. Cooper, rh Yvette Heyes, David McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Corbyn, Jeremy Hill, rh Keith McIsaac, Shona Brennan, Kevin Cousins, Jim Hillier, Meg McKechin, Ann Brown, rh Mr. Gordon Crausby, Mr. David Hodge, rh Margaret McKenna, Rosemary Brown, Lyn Creagh, Mary Hoey, Kate McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Cruddas, Jon Hood, Mr. Jim Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Brown, Mr. Russell Cryer, Mrs. Ann Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Meale, Mr. Alan 643 Debate on the Address 25 NOVEMBER 2009 644

Merron, Gillian Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Business without Debate Michael, rh Alun Smith, Ms Angela C. Miliband, rh Edward (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Miller, Andrew Smith, Geraldine BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Mitchell, Mr. Austin Smith, rh Jacqui Moffat, Anne Smith, John Ordered, Moffatt, Laura Snelgrove, Anne That, at the sitting on Tuesday 1 December, notwithstanding Mole, Chris Soulsby, Sir Peter the provisions of Standing Order No. 16 (Proceedings under an Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Southworth, Helen Act or on European Union documents), the Speaker shall put the Morden, Jessica Spellar, rh Mr. John Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motion in Morgan, Julie Starkey, Dr. Phyllis the name of Sarah McCarthy-Fry relating to European Financial Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Stewart, Ian Services Proposals not later than three hours after their Mudie, Mr. George Stoate, Dr. Howard commencement; proceedings may continue, though opposed, after Mullin, Mr. Chris Strang, rh Dr. Gavin the moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred Munn, Meg Straw, rh Mr. Jack divisions) shall not apply.—(Steve McCabe.) Murphy, Mr. Denis Stringer, Graham Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Stuart, Ms Gisela SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Motion made, Naysmith, Dr. Doug Tami, Mark Norris, Dan Taylor, David That— O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Taylor, Dr. Richard (1) Standing Order No. 14 (Arrangement of public business) O’Hara, Mr. Edward Thomas, Mr. Gareth shall have effect for this Session with the following modifications, Olner, Mr. Bill Thornberry, Emily namely: Osborne, Sandra Timms, rh Mr. Stephen In paragraph (4) the word ‘eight’ shall be substituted for the Owen, Albert Tipping, Paddy word ‘thirteen’ in line 42 and in paragraph (5) the word ‘fifth’ Palmer, Dr. Nick Todd, Mr. Mark shall be substituted for the word ‘eighth’ in line 44; Pearson, Ian Touhig, rh Mr. Don (2) Standing Order No. 90 (Second reading committees) shall Plaskitt, Mr. James Trickett, Jon have effect for this Session with the following modification, Pope, Mr. Greg Truswell, Mr. Paul namely: Pound, Stephen Turner, Dr. Desmond In paragraph (2) the word ‘fifth’ shall be substituted for the Prentice, Bridget Turner, Mr. Neil word ‘eighth’ in line 21; and Prentice, Mr. Gordon Twigg, Derek (3) Private Members’ Bills shall have precedence over Government Prescott, rh Mr. John Ussher, Kitty business on 29 January; 5 and 26 February; 5 and 12 March; Price, Adam Vaz, rh Keith 23 and 30 April; and 7 May.—(Steve McCabe.) Primarolo, rh Dawn Vis, Dr. Rudi Prosser, Gwyn Walley, Joan Hon. Members: Object. Purchase, Mr. Ken Ward, Claire Purnell, rh James Wareing, Mr. Robert N. PETITIONS Rammell, Bill Watson, Mr. Tom Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Watts, Mr. Dave Future of Small Shops Reed, Mr. Andy Weir, Mr. Mike Reed, Mr. Jamie Whitehead, Dr. Alan 7.17 pm Reid, rh John Wicks, rh Malcolm Robertson, John Williams, rh Mr. Alan Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): I Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Williams, Mrs. Betty take pleasure in presenting a petition on behalf of the Rooney, Mr. Terry Williams, Hywel Federation of Small Businesses in my constituency, Roy, Mr. Frank Wills, rh Mr. Michael which was brought to me by members of the “Don’t Let Roy, Lindsay Wilson, Phil Dunstable Die” group. Ruane, Chris Winnick, Mr. David The petition states: Ruddock, Joan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie The Petition of members of the Federation of Small Businesses Russell, Christine Wishart, Pete and others, Ryan, rh Joan Wood, Mike Declares that the House of Commons All-Party Small Shops Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Group estimates that there will be no independent retailers by Seabeck, Alison Woolas, Mr. Phil Sharma, Mr. Virendra 2015; declares that this equates to the loss of 50,000 small Wright, Mr. Anthony businesses; declares that the petitioners believe that small shops Shaw, Jonathan Wright, David are struggling to survive because of local, regional and national Sheerman, Mr. Barry Wright, Mr. Iain government policies, together with the failure of the competition Sheridan, Jim Wright, Dr. Tony authorities to deal with the aggressive policies of the supermarkets. Simon, Mr. Siôn Wyatt, Derek Further declares that the loss of the UK’s Independent retailers Simpson, Alan has far-reaching socio-economic and environmental implications Singh, Mr. Marsha Tellers for the Noes: for the whole community; further declares that superstores and Skinner, Mr. Dennis Helen Jones and small independent shops should not be considered as two separate Slaughter, Mr. Andy Mrs. Sharon Hodgson markets. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Question accordingly negatived. urges the Government to take steps to secure the future of small shops across the UK and to safeguard the choice and competition that people expect on the market place; to create an independent regulator to ensure that local retail planning decisions do not have a negative effect on the interests of the local community; and 7.17 pm to prohibit unfair pricing advantages such as below cost selling. The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 9(3). And the Petitioners remain, etc. Ordered, That the debate be resumed tomorrow. [P000424] 645 Business without Debate 25 NOVEMBER 2009 646

Equitable Life ( South) Adoption and Custody (Suffolk) Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House 7.18 pm do now adjourn.—(Steve McCabe.) Mr. Mike Hancock (Portsmouth, South) (LD): I present this petition to the House on behalf of a number of my 7.20 pm constituents—all affected in one way or another by the Equitable Life assurance society fiasco—headed by Mr. Tim Yeo (South Suffolk) (Con): I welcome this Mr. Colin Rivington. They remain loyal subjects of the chance to raise on the Adjournment of the House my Queen and petition this Parliament to take action on deep concerns about the adoption of very young children. their behalf. In particular, I wish to expose the policy of Suffolk The petitions states: county council in cases where the birth parents do not wish to give up newly born babies for adoption. The “The Petition of the residents of the constituency of Portsmouth South, council actively seeks opportunities to remove babies from their mothers. Its social work staff do so in a Declares that the Petitioners either are or they represent or support members, former members or personal representatives of manner that in my view is sometimes tantamount to deceased members of the Equitable Life Assurance Society who child kidnapping. have suffered maladministration leading to injustice, as found by I also wish to raise related concerns about custody the Parliamentary Ombudsman in her report upon Equitable decisions in cases where the parents are separated, and Life, ordered by the House of Commons to be printed on 16 July about the role of the Children and Family Court Advisory 2008 and bearing reference number HC 815; and further declares that the Petitioners or those whom they represent or support have and Support Service. Individual CAFCASS officers suffered regulatory failure on the part of the public bodies exercise substantial influence over the outcome of court responsible from the year 1992 onwards, but have not received hearings. They are often extremely unhelpful, both to compensation for the resulting losses and outrage. birth parents who wish to be able to bring up their own The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons children and to fathers who wish to retain access to urges the Government to uphold the constitutional standing of children following the breakdown of a relationship. the Parliamentary Ombudsman by complying in full with the I have suspected for some time that an explicit if findings and recommendations of her Report upon Equitable Life. unpublished aim of the staff of Suffolk county council is to remove very young children from the care of their And the Petitioners remain, etc. parents wherever possible. My anxiety results from a [P000425] growing number of families in my constituency who come to me for help when Suffolk county council staff threaten to take away their children. I shall illustrate my concern by describing just one family, whom I have got to know well in the past 18 months. I wish I could believe that their case was exceptional but, alas, I fear that it may be typical of the practices followed by social workers throughout Suffolk, and possibly elsewhere in the country. For legal reasons, I cannot use the family’s real names. I first met Carissa when she came to my constituency surgery in July 2008, with her partner Jim. At the time, Carissa was seven months’ pregnant. I formed the view, which has been confirmed on every subsequent occasion, that although Carissa had a difficult and unhappy upbringing herself, she is potentially a loving and responsible mother, and that Jim would be a supportive and caring father. Carissa and Jim were concerned about the threats of Suffolk county council staff to take away their unborn baby soon after its birth. I therefore wrote to the then director for children and young people to ask why her staff had threatened this action, only to be informed that the county council was bound by confidentiality rules that prevented it from disclosing anything about the case. That was despite the fact that both parents had authorised the council, in writing, to disclose all information to me, however damaging it might be to them. Their daughter Poppy was born early in September last year. Suffolk county council social services monitored Poppy’s progress minutely during the first few weeks of her life. Happily, she prospered at home under the loving care of Carissa and Jim. However, the fact that no fault could be found in the physical and emotional care provided by her natural parents did not deter the council from destroying this fragile family. 647 Adoption and Custody (Suffolk)25 NOVEMBER 2009 Adoption and Custody (Suffolk) 648

[Mr. Tim Yeo] Astonishingly, however, at no point has the ability of Carissa and Jim to care for Poppy been questioned. It is On 27 October, the county council staff, having first acknowledged that in the few weeks in which they were ensured that Jim would be away from home, arrived allowed to look after her, they did so in an exemplary unannounced and without warning at Carissa’s home, manner. accompanied by police. They snatched Poppy, then only The final favoured rationale given by social services a few weeks old, from the arms of her distraught for Poppy’s adoption order was based on nothing more mother. I immediately protested to the council about than the possibility of future emotional abuse of her by that unjust and cruel act. I received a letter in reply either Carissa or Jim. The council staff claimed that containing the chilling, and completely ungrammatical only if Carissa received two years of therapy, and if Jim phrase received at least six months’, could they become responsible “I can confirm that the infant was removed without notice parents. Accepting that advice, and using wording that with the assistance of the police however no force was used.” betrayed his own prejudices, a judge concluded that that In the eyes of the council, that apparently made everything would be too long a period to wait and that Poppy all right. should therefore be taken away from her loving parents. The appalling truth is that, in Suffolk in 2008, social The consistent thread running through this horrifying workers and police could burst unannounced into a story has been the evident determination of social home to snatch a nine-week-old baby from the arms of services staff to prevent an infant from being brought her mother—a mother who is not only totally innocent up in the care of her natural parents. There have been of any offence but who is not even suspected of having many other contradictions and inconsistencies in the harmed her child. Such is the extraordinary power of case—far too many to list in this debate. Throughout the social workers that all of that happens in a way that the process Carissa and Jim have co-operated fully with cannot be challenged. When the innocent victim asks social services, which is a reflection of how desperate her Member of Parliament for help, his inquiries are they have been to retain their role as Poppy’s parents. met with a wall of silence. This wall of silence is said to They were often caught in Catch-22 situations. Initially, be in order to protect the privacy of the child. The truth Carissa was told she would have more chance of keeping is that it serves to conceal the actions of social workers Poppy if she separated from Jim. When she reluctantly from public gaze. complied with this suggestion temporarily in order to It is very probable that if social workers had to keep Poppy, however, the alleged instability of their operate with the same level of transparency and public relationship was cited as an additional reason for adoption. scrutiny as every other profession takes for granted, some of the terrible cases where a failure to intervene, In August this year, when the Suffolk county council as opposed to the problem of unnecessary and unjust adoption panel held its hearing about the case, Jim and intervention in the case that I am describing, would not Carissa asked me to attend as their McKenzie friend, take place. the first time I have undertaken this role. A kangaroo To make matters very much worse, the circumstances court would be a better title for the so-called panel. I of the raid were seriously misrepresented when council inquired about its members and was told that they were staff gave evidence in August this year to the adoption “people with an interest in adoption—either adoptive parents panel considering Poppy’s future. Following the removal themselves or people who had been adopted”. of Poppy from the care of her parents, a bitter legal Put another way, that meant that the panel consisted of battle took place, which continues to this day. Throughout people who were emotionally in favour of adoption, this process Suffolk county council has repeatedly changed regardless of the merits of any individual case. I later the grounds for removing Poppy, alternating between learned that the panel almost always recommends that blaming one parent and then the other. babies are adopted and practically never returns them The council’s search for a justification for its cruelty to their birth parents. became increasingly frantic as one initial diagnosis was The procedure followed by the panel involves its overturned and replaced with another. Numerous members meeting first in private to consider the evidence. contradictions arose which cast serious doubt on the Neither Carissa nor Jim was permitted to know what soundness of the case against the couple. The first information was being considered by the panel at this doctor’s psychological assessment of Carissa declared stage. This was particularly alarming because extensive that she qualified for a diagnosis of factitious disorder. and detailed notes were regularly written up after various Then a consultant forensic psychiatrist decided after the meetings with council staff, CAFCASS employees and briefest of assessments that she fulfilled the criteria for so on. Neither Carissa nor Jim ever had an opportunity the much more catch-all narcissistic personality disorder. to see these notes, to check their veracity or to comment The first doctor assessed that Jim was “a pathological on the judgments that they contained. liar”. Later, a consultant clinical psychologist This process would not, of course, be permitted if “would not endorse the expression”. Carissa and Jim were facing criminal charges. The panel Expert witnesses also expressed misgivings. At a process equates to trying someone for an offence without professional meeting on 18 March the doctors wanted giving them the chance to know on what the case to go on record against them is based. It is such a flagrant breach of “as being very concerned about the fragmented process of this natural justice that it would not be tolerated in any case”. other legal process and should not be tolerated in Only Dr. B had seen both parents. Dr. D had only adoption cases. interviewed Jim and Dr. S only Carissa. Dr. B remarked that the fragmented information was a Neither Carissa nor Jim stands accused of any offence “disadvantage to the professional assessment as each had only whatever. The punishment that they face, however, is part of the picture”. one of the most terrible any parent can face—the forced 649 Adoption and Custody (Suffolk)25 NOVEMBER 2009 Adoption and Custody (Suffolk) 650 removal of their baby. The awful truth is that they Great distress has been caused to the whole of his would have more legal rights and would be treated more family and Richard’s health and well-being have been humanely and justly if they were on trial for murdering gravely damaged. their child. To sum up, I believe that the current procedure for It all meant that when Carissa and Jim eventually resolving adoption cases when the natural parents wish met the panel, they had no idea what points they should to retain care and custody of their children is unfair, try to make because they did not know what they were unjust and should not be tolerated. The secrecy surrounding accused of. Equally seriously, the accuracy of the allegations the process, together with the appalling lack of scrutiny put before the panel by council staff is extremely and accountability in the social care and family court questionable. One allegation, based on evidence from a system, is made worse by the fact that Members of council staff worker, was that Jim had been present Parliament are prevented from having proper information when Poppy was snatched from her mother’s home. It in relation to “child protection” cases. was said that a man’s voice making threatening comments Like other hon. Members, I am daily supporting was heard from another room in the flat where Carissa constituents who have been let down by some branch of was living with Poppy. That was not just a fabrication the state. Uniquely in the area of child protection, I am but must have been known by council staff to be a expected to trust that public officials are doing everything fabrication when it was included among the items for absolutely correctly. I am not allowed to make an informed consideration by the panel. judgment about that myself. I am not qualified to assess the suitability of my Sadly, we know from the terrible baby P case that constituents to parent their own child, but I am very sometimes social workers make grievous errors. How, concerned about the case. In bringing it, Suffolk county therefore, can we believe that every time a child is council has followed a procedure that should be outlawed forcibly removed from a loving home and from his or in any civilised country. It is a process that denies her natural parents, the judgment of the social workers parents the most basic human and legal rights. is so perfect and faultless that it should not be open to I am also concerned about the apparent contortions any outside scrutiny? that county council social services and their appointed In the case of Poppy it was only in September, after a medical practitioners have gone through to justify their court had ruled that she should be permanently and intervention and to find grounds for adoption. It is forcibly adopted, that I was finally allowed access to the clear that far more accountability and scrutiny are detailed case notes. Poppy’s parents themselves are still required for social workers, CAFCASS officials, expert struggling to see the data held on them despite wanting witnesses and judges. That is particularly the case when to mount a private appeal. Once again, the rights of many of the same people are frequently involved. For people accused of crimes, however serious, are far greater example, the judge who oversaw a previous private law than those of parents of children whom social workers proceeding relating to Carissa’s former husband also want to seize for adoption. In criminal cases, defendants dealt with the case of Poppy. The CAFCASS practitioner have a right to receive copies of case conference notes who is Poppy’s guardian was also involved in a custody and all the evidence that is used against them in court. dispute about Carissa’s first child. There are, of course, many cases in which removing a Before concluding, I wish to mention briefly another child from the care of its parents is necessary and right, constituency case involving this same CAFCASS worker. and tragically decisions about whether to return an I consider the actions of that worker to be so damaging abused child to abusive parents may literally be a matter to the families she is appointed to help that, as soon as I of life or death. The category, however, of emotional am legally permitted to do so, I shall name her publicly. abuse is more complex, but in any circumstances it is In the meantime, I strongly advise CAFCASS that she surely true that, if the professionals involved were made should be suspended. more accountable, decisions about permanent removal would be a little easier to justify. The problem of In that other case, a previously stable relationship accountability is complex, but as award-winning journalist between Richard and his partner, who together had a Camilla Cavendish, who has studied the subject, points young daughter, broke down in distressing circumstances out: when his partner’s older daughter physically attacked “The privacy of the child has become synonymous with the Richard. Unable to return to the family home, for privacy of the professionals.” which he had paid, and unwilling to bring charges The other lesson from the case of Poppy is that the against his stepdaughter, Richard moved out. emphasis must shift from removing young children At first, despite regular threats of violence against from parents, who may themselves be vulnerable and Richard and his family from the family of his former somewhat inadequate, to providing support for those partner, threats that were so serious that significant same parents. If a fraction of the effort, cost and time protection measures had to be taken, Richard continued that Suffolk county council staff spent on trying to to enjoy almost daily access to his daughter—that is, justify the removal of Poppy from her parents had, until this CAFCASS worker arrived on the scene. In instead, been devoted to helping Carissa and Jim, it flagrant contradiction of the merits of the case and very would have strengthened a family instead of destroying much against the interests of the young girl concerned, it. Social workers should provide more supportive parenting the CAFCASS officer persuaded a court to cut Richard’s help early on. The judge suggested that Jim would access to his only daughter to a supervised session of no require six months to a year of therapy in September more than three hours a week. In the process, Richard’s 2009, and that did not fit into Poppy’s timescales, but personal safety was seriously compromised. The result the family were known to social services before her has been the destruction of the previously close and birth, giving them as much as 18 months to work with loving relationship between Richard and his daughter. the couple had they so desired. 651 Adoption and Custody (Suffolk)25 NOVEMBER 2009 Adoption and Custody (Suffolk) 652

[Mr. Tim Yeo] must consider whether adoption or another permanent option would be better for the child. If the parents do Tens of thousands of pounds have been spent on the not agree to their child being placed for adoption, the court process for the case—money that could have been local authority must apply to the court for a placement used to help the family and others in their position. I order. It is then a matter for the court to decide whether urge the Minister to institute an immediate inquiry into to make a placement order and, later, an adoption how the adoption process works in the cases of very order. No child is adopted from care without a court young babies who have been born to parents who wish deciding that it is in their best interests; this is a fundamental to keep them. Some 16 years ago, I was a Minister at the safeguard in the care system. Provisions in the Children, Department of Health, where I had responsibility for Schools and Families Bill will continue the process of adoption and social services policy. I believe that the opening up family courts by broadening the amount of subject is critical to many families and transcends normal information that can be reported by the media, which party political boundaries. We should let the case of will be allowed to attend proceedings in staged processes. Poppy be the catalyst that leads to a change in such That is subject to a review following the introduction of unfair procedures. the first stage. Let me turn now to information and support for 7.37 pm parents. Parents must have access to court reports and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children, permanence reports, as well as the right to counselling Schools and Families (Ms Diana R. Johnson): I congratulate and fully understanding the reasons for decisions being the hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr. Yeo)on securing made. They also have the right to an independent this important debate. Like the hon. Gentleman, the support worker as soon as adoption becomes the plan Government want the very best for every single child in for the child. Adoption records are highly confidential, this country, and that is why we take the safeguarding of and it may not be appropriate for a local authority to children so seriously. I am of course aware of the share certain information with birth parents, particularly circumstances to which he refers, and I understand how if this relates to third parties and if doing so could incredibly difficult and emotionally draining it can be undermine the security of the adoptive placement or for all concerned in such cases. However, as I am sure he put the child’s welfare at risk. However, the child’s will appreciate, I am unable to comment on, or intervene permanence report is to be read by the birth parents—it in, such individual cases. is a key document presented to the adoption panel Before I deal with some of the hon. Gentleman’s about the adoption plan for a child. Parents should points, I shall make it clear that the Government’s therefore be aware of information that the panel will policy is that children should live with their parents take into account in making recommendations regarding whenever possible. We have invested huge amounts in the plan for adoption, and the panel will take into early intervention, through Sure Start children’s centres account any comments the parents have made on the and our Think Family initiatives, and in more intensive child’s permanence report. support, through family intervention projects, family The local authority must provide a counselling service nurse partnerships and multi-systemic therapy programmes, for parents, who, as I said, also have the right to an to support the most vulnerable families with children independent support worker, whose role is to provide on the edge of care. The challenge for social workers, the parents with advice and support. All local authorities and for all of us, is to keep children safe and families should be working in partnership with birth parents, together when that is possible, but sadly sometimes it is although it is a matter for each authority to decide on not. the appropriateness of sharing minutes of specific meetings. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman agrees that the A new booklet for parents entitled “Your child could be child’s welfare is of paramount importance in all decisions taken into care” has been produced by the Ministry of made by local authorities, or by the court, about the Justice, with the aim of strengthening and improving care and upbringing of children. Sometimes children the information offered to parents before court proceedings have to be taken into care because they cannot live at begin; this will be issued in the new year. In addition, home in safety, and the Government make no apology since May this year the Children and Family Court for that. Local authorities have powers to apply to the Advisory and Support Service has been sending an courts for emergency protection orders, and the police information pack about court processes and the role of have powers to remove children so that they can act CAFCASS to all parents and children involved in immediately to protect the child, but local authorities proceedings. cannot remove children from their parents’ care without Government guidance consistently highlights the the parents’ consent without first referring the matter to importance of continuing to work in partnership with a court. The court may make such an order only if it is parents with a view to the child returning home, even satisfied on the evidence provided that the child concerned when statutory action is being taken. For example, we is suffering, or is likely to suffer, significant harm, and recently issued for consultation draft regulations and that that is due to the care given to the child by the strengthened guidance, which set out our expectations parents. It is, for the child, better if the order is made regarding care planning to ensure that each looked-after than if it is not. child has a thorough assessment of their needs and The decision that a child should be adopted is made circumstances. However, a stage may be reached when it not by one social worker, but by a group of people who is apparent that the child cannot return home. At that scrutinise the adoption plan—in particular, an adoption stage, the local authority must make alternative plans to panel. In considering the plan, the adoption panel and provide the child with a permanent family home. Adoption the local authority must, like the courts that make the is one way of providing this, and it is appropriate for final decisions, have regard to the welfare checklist set some children, depending on the facts of each individual out in the Adoption and Children Act 2002, and they case. In such cases, however, the local authority must 653 Adoption and Custody (Suffolk)25 NOVEMBER 2009 Adoption and Custody (Suffolk) 654 explain to the parents why the child can not go home, and system, including the independent judiciary, publicly why it has been decided that adoption is the plan, as funded solicitors for all parties and CAFCASS children’s well as the legal implications of placing their child with guardians, which combine to ensure that care and adoption prospective adopters and the effect of an adoption order. orders are made only after proper scrutiny of local Before I close, I feel it is worth noting that Ofsted’s authorities’ work and proposals. last inspection of Suffolk described the authority’s adoption I understand from CAFCASS that it received a letter service to children and families as both strong and from the hon. Gentleman on 19 November regarding child-focused, with birth families being involved in adoption the actions of a CAFCASS officer and the court’s plans and invited to attend the adoption panel to give decision on contact in a specific case. It has assured me their views. It stated that they can also access independent that he will receive a reply within 10 working days of support and receive help with maintaining indirect and receipt of that letter. direct contact with their children, and that they are Question put and agreed to. treated with respect. I reiterate that I am proud of this Government’s record in delivering for families and safeguarding children. 7.45 pm There are already extensive checks and balances in the House adjourned. 655 25 NOVEMBER 2009 Deferred Division 656

Deferred Division Hopkins, Kelvin O’Hara, Mr. Edward Howarth, rh Mr. George Olner, Mr. Bill Howells, rh Dr. Kim Öpik, Lembit ADJOURNMENT (CHRISTMAS) Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Osborne, Sandra That this House, at its rising on Wednesday 16 December 2009, Humble, Mrs. Joan Owen, Albert do adjourn till Tuesday 5 January 2010. Hutton, rh Mr. John Palmer, Dr. Nick The House divided: Ayes 273, Noes 198. Iddon, Dr. Brian Plaskitt, Mr. James Division No. 1] Illsley, Mr. Eric Pope, Mr. Greg Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Pound, Stephen Irranca-Davies, Huw Prentice, Bridget AYES Jenkins, Mr. Brian Prentice, Mr. Gordon Ainger, Nick Crausby, Mr. David Johnson, rh Alan Primarolo, rh Dawn Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Creagh, Mary Johnson, Ms Diana R. Prosser, Gwyn Anderson, Mr. David Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Anderson, Janet Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jones, Mr. Kevan Reed, Mr. Andy Austin, Mr. Ian Cummings, John Jones, Lynne Reed, Mr. Jamie Austin, John Cunningham, Mr. Jim Jones, Mr. Martyn Robertson, John Bailey, Mr. Adrian Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Keeble, Ms Sally Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Bain, Mr. William David, Mr. Wayne Keeley, Barbara Rooney, Mr. Terry Baird, Vera Davidson, Mr. Ian Keen, Alan Roy, Mr. Frank Balls, rh Ed Dean, Mrs. Janet Keen, Ann Roy, Lindsay Banks, Gordon Denham, rh Mr. John Kelly, rh Ruth Ruane, Chris Barrett, John Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Kemp, Mr. Fraser Ruddock, Joan Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kidney, Mr. David Russell, Christine Battle, rh John Dobbin, Jim Kumar, Dr. Ashok Ryan, rh Joan Beckett, rh Margaret Dobson, rh Frank Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Salter, Martin Begg, Miss Anne Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Laxton, Mr. Bob Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Bell, Sir Stuart Doran, Mr. Frank Lepper, David Sheerman, Mr. Barry Benn, rh Hilary Dowd, Jim Levitt, Tom Sheridan, Jim Benton, Mr. Joe Drew, Mr. David Lewis, Mr. Ivan Simon, Mr. Siôn Berry, Roger Durkan, Mark Linton, Martin Simpson, Alan Betts, Mr. Clive Eagle, Angela Lloyd, Tony Skinner, Mr. Dennis Blackman, Liz Eagle, Maria Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Slaughter, Mr. Andy Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Efford, Clive Lucas, Ian Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Blears, rh Hazel Ellman, Mrs. Louise MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Smith, Ms Angela C. Blizzard, Mr. Bob Engel, Natascha Mallaber, Judy (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Borrow, Mr. David S. Ennis, Jeff Mann, John Smith, Geraldine Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Fitzpatrick, Jim Marsden, Mr. Gordon Smith, rh Jacqui Brennan, Kevin Flynn, Paul Martlew, Mr. Eric Snelgrove, Anne Brown, rh Mr. Gordon Foster, Mr. Michael McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Soulsby, Sir Peter Brown, Lyn (Worcester) McCabe, Steve Southworth, Helen Brown, Mr. Russell Foster, Michael Jabez McCarthy, Kerry Spellar, rh Mr. John Browne, rh Des (Hastings and Rye) McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Bruce, rh Malcolm Francis, Dr. Hywel McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Stewart, Ian Bryant, Chris Gapes, Mike McDonagh, Siobhain Stoate, Dr. Howard Buck, Ms Karen Gardiner, Barry McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Burden, Richard George, rh Mr. Bruce McFall, rh John Straw, rh Mr. Jack Burgon, Colin Gerrard, Mr. Neil McGovern, Mr. Jim Stringer, Graham Burnham, rh Andy Gilroy, Linda McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Stuart, Ms Gisela Butler, Ms Dawn Godsiff, Mr. Roger McIsaac, Shona Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Goggins, rh Paul McKechin, Ann Tami, Mark Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Goodman, Helen McKenna, Rosemary Taylor, David Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Griffith, Nia McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Taylor, Dr. Richard Cairns, David Griffiths, Nigel Meale, Mr. Alan Thomas, Mr. Gareth Campbell, Mr. Alan Grogan, Mr. John Merron, Gillian Thornberry, Emily Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Gwynne, Andrew Michael, rh Alun Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hall, Patrick Miliband, rh Edward Tipping, Paddy Challen, Colin Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Miller, Andrew Todd, Mr. Mark Chapman, Ben Hanson, rh Mr. David Mitchell, Mr. Austin Touhig, rh Mr. Don Chaytor, Mr. David Harman, rh Ms Harriet Moffat, Anne Trickett, Jon Clapham, Mr. Michael Harvey, Nick Moffatt, Laura Truswell, Mr. Paul Clark, Ms Katy Havard, Mr. Dai Mole, Chris Turner, Dr. Desmond Clark, Paul Healey, rh John Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Turner, Mr. Neil Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hendrick, Mr. Mark Morden, Jessica Twigg, Derek Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Morgan, Julie Ussher, Kitty Clelland, Mr. David Hesford, Stephen Mudie, Mr. George Vaz, rh Keith Clwyd, rh Ann Hillier, Meg Mullin, Mr. Chris Walley, Joan Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hodge, rh Margaret Munn, Meg Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Coffey, Ann Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Watson, Mr. Tom Connarty, Michael Hood, Mr. Jim Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Watts, Mr. Dave Cooper, Rosie Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Naysmith, Dr. Doug Whitehead, Dr. Alan Cousins, Jim Hope, Phil Norris, Dan Wicks, rh Malcolm 657 Deferred Division25 NOVEMBER 2009 Deferred Division 658

Williams, rh Mr. Alan Woolas, Mr. Phil Kawczynski, Daniel Russell, Bob Williams, Mrs. Betty Wright, Mr. Anthony Keetch, Mr. Paul Scott, Mr. Lee Wilson, Phil Wright, David Key, Robert Selous, Andrew Wilson, Sammy Wright, Mr. Iain Kirkbride, Miss Julie Shapps, Grant Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Wyatt, Derek Knight, rh Mr. Greg Shepherd, Mr. Richard Kramer, Susan Simmonds, Mark NOES Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Simpson, David Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Simpson, Mr. Keith Afriyie, Adam Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mr. Mark Smith, Chloe Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Fallon, Mr. Michael Lansley, Mr. Andrew Smith, Sir Robert Alexander, Danny Farron, Tim Laws, Mr. David Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Amess, Mr. David Featherstone, Lynne Leech, Mr. John Spicer, Sir , rh Mr. Michael Foster, Mr. Don Lewis, Dr. Julian Spink, Bob Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Francois, Mr. Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Spring, Mr. Richard Atkinson, Mr. Peter Fraser, Christopher Lidington, Mr. David Stanley, rh Sir John Baker, Norman Gauke, Mr. David Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Steen, Mr. Anthony Baldry, Tony George, Andrew Luff, Peter Streeter, Mr. Gary Barker, Gregory Gidley, Sandra Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Stuart, Mr. Graham Baron, Mr. John Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Mackinlay, Andrew Stunell, Andrew Beith, rh Sir Alan Goldsworthy, Julia MacNeil, Mr. Angus Swayne, Mr. Desmond Bellingham, Mr. Henry Goodwill, Mr. Robert Main, Anne Swinson, Jo Benyon, Mr. Richard Gove, Michael Mason, John Syms, Mr. Robert Beresford, Sir Paul Gray, Mr. James May, rh Mrs. Theresa Tapsell, Sir Peter Binley, Mr. Brian Grayling, Chris McCrea, Dr. William Taylor, Mr. Ian Blunt, Mr. Crispin Green, Damian McIntosh, Miss Anne Teather, Sarah Bone, Mr. Peter Grieve, Mr. Dominic McLoughlin, rh Mr. Timpson, Mr. Edward Boswell, Mr. Tim Hague, rh Mr. William Patrick Tredinnick, David Brady, Mr. Graham Hamilton, Mr. David Miller, Mrs. Maria Turner, Mr. Andrew Brake, Tom Hammond, Stephen Milton, Anne Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Brazier, Mr. Julian Hancock, Mr. Mike Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Vaizey, Mr. Edward Brooke, Annette Hands, Mr. Greg Moore, Mr. Michael Vara, Mr. Shailesh Browne, Mr. Jeremy Harper, Mr. Mark Mulholland, Greg Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Burns, Mr. Simon Harris, Dr. Evan Mundell, David Wallace, Mr. Ben Burrowes, Mr. David Hayes, Mr. John Murrison, Dr. Andrew Walter, Mr. Robert Burt, Alistair Heath, Mr. David O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Waterson, Mr. Nigel Burt, Lorely Heathcoat-Amory, rh Osborne, Mr. George Watkinson, Angela Butterfill, Sir John Mr. David Ottaway, Richard Webb, Steve Cable, Dr. Vincent Hemming, John Paice, Mr. James Weir, Mr. Mike Cameron, rh Mr. David Herbert, Nick Paterson, Mr. Owen Campbell, Mr. Gregory Hoban, Mr. Mark Whittingdale, Mr. Penrose, John John Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Hoey, Kate Pickles, Mr. Eric Wiggin, Bill Chope, Mr. Christopher Hollobone, Mr. Philip Pritchard, Mark Willetts, Mr. David Clappison, Mr. James Holloway, Mr. Adam Pugh, Dr. John Williams, Hywel Clark, Greg Holmes, Paul Randall, Mr. John Williams, Mark Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Horam, Mr. John Reid, Mr. Alan Cormack, Sir Patrick Horwood, Martin Rennie, Willie Williams, Mr. Roger Crabb, Mr. Stephen Howard, rh Mr. Michael Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Willis, Mr. Phil Davey, Mr. Edward Howarth, David Robathan, Mr. Andrew Willott, Jenny Davies, Mr. Dai Howarth, Mr. Gerald Robertson, Angus Wilson, Mr. Rob Davies, Philip Howell, John Robertson, Hugh Winterton, Ann Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Huhne, Chris Rogerson, Dan Winterton, Sir Nicholas Duddridge, James Hunter, Mark Rosindell, Andrew Wright, Jeremy Duncan, Alan Hurd, Mr. Nick Rowen, Paul Young, rh Sir George Dunne, Mr. Philip Jack, rh Mr. Michael Evans, Mr. Nigel Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Evennett, Mr. David Jones, Mr. David Question accordingly agreed to.

79WS Written Ministerial Statements25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 80WS

I remain of the view that the Bank of England must Written Ministerial be allowed to provide assistance to financial institutions on a confidential basis as financial stability may require. Statements I have written to the Chairs of the Treasury Committee and the Public Accounts Committee on this matter and a copy of these letters has been placed in the Libraries Wednesday 25 November 2009 of both Houses.

CABINET OFFICE

TREASURY Charity Commission DEL (2009-10)

Indemnity to Bank of England The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. Smith): Plans to change the Charity Commission’s departmental expenditure limit (DEL) and administration The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Alistair Darling): budget for 2009-10. On 23 November 2009 the Governor of the Bank of Subject to parliamentary approval of any necessary England informed the Chair of the Treasury Committee supplementary estimate, the Charity Commission DEL of how, in exceptional circumstances, the Bank of England will be increased by £1,615,000 from £30,149,000 to extended emergency liquidity assistance (ELA) to RBS £31,764,000 and the administration budget will be increased and HBOS in the autumn of 2008. by £1,000,000 from £30,219,000 to £31,219,000. Within The Treasury granted the Bank an indemnity in the DEL change, the impact on resources is as set out in October 2008. This indemnified the Bank on a net basis the following table: against losses that it might suffer or incur in connection with the Bank’s commitment to ensure that the banking New DEL £’000 system had sufficient access to liquidity, including this Change Voted Non-voted Total ELA. The indemnity was granted given the size of the operations the Bank had entered into, and considered Resource 1,000 31,219 0 31,219 in the context of the existing demands on the Bank’s DEL 1,000 31,219 0 31,219 of which: 1,000 30,119 30,119 balance sheet at that time. It was not related to any Administration perception of the increased risks associated with lending budget* to the banks, for instance because of any concerns Near cash regarding the quality of the collateral posted by the in DEL banks. Capital 615 1,315 0 1,315 The indemnity was provided for actions taken by the Depreciation** 0 -770 0 -770 Bank from 14 October 2008 for a period of two months. Total 1,615 31,764 0 31,764 The Bank paid an indemnity fee of 170bps to the *The total of ‘Administration budget’ and ‘Near cash in Resource Treasury on borrowings it guaranteed. The total use of DEL’ may be greater than total resource DEL due to the definition ELA across both banks was £61.6 billion on 17 October. overlapping. **Depreciation, which forms part of resource DEL, is excluded from The peak of the indemnity was £18.1 billion on total DEL since capital DEL includes capital spending and to 27 October. Treasury received fees totalling £18.9 million include depreciation of those assets would lead to double counting. for this indemnity. This was recognised as “other dividends The change in Resource DEL arises from: and interest” income which is payable to the consolidated changes in operating Appropriations in Aid of £1,000,000 fund in the 2008-09 resource accounts. The amount was funded by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for the not separately identified, but included within the total continuation of the International Outreach project. This increase other dividends and interest income balance of is fully offset by changes in spending and does not impact on £866.7 million disclosed in note 9, page 201 of the the Commission’s Departmental Expenditure Limit; and resource accounts. the utilisation of £1,000,000 of the Commission’s Resource The Bank’s assessment at that time was that it was EYF. vital that its ELA operations remained confidential, The change in the Capital DEL reflects the utilisation and that any disclosure or leak of the operations would of £615,000 of the Commission’s Capital EYF. seriously jeopardise the financial stability of the system The funds from Resource EYF and Capital EYF will as a whole. I shared this assessment. I also judged that be used to rationalise our estate (the London, Liverpool the risk to public resources was low given the quality of and Taunton offices) and to implement a file storage the collateral received by the Bank. Having carefully system. These investment programmes will generate considered the case for disclosure of the of the prevailing future cost savings. circumstances, would not be in the public interest. The Bank no longer considers it necessary for the CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES assistance to remain confidential. I also share that judgment. Market conditions have improved considerably, Dr. David Southall (Special Case Files) and the disclosure by Lloyds Banking Group in their recent prospectus of the current aggregate amount of support it has received from the authorities has not The Secretary of State for Children, Schools and destabilised to the markets. In the light of those Families (Ed Balls): During investigations by the General developments, I now consider that the balance of the Medical Council into the conduct of paediatrician David public interest is in disclosure. Southall, it emerged that, during periods of employment 81WS Written Ministerial Statements25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 82WS at the Royal Brompton and Harefield Hospital and the only a tiny number of individuals have been shown to University Hospital of North Staffordshire (“Hospital have fallen short of our high standards. Allegations of Trusts”) between 1980 and 2000, he kept “Special Case” abuse are however taken very seriously. files (SC files) on some of his patients separate from the Judicial review proceedings were issued in late 2007 hospital record system. In February 2007 the Attorney- relating to allegations that Iraqi nationals were detained General announced that the Crown Prosecution Service after a firefight with British soldiers in Iraq in 2004 and (CPS) was to review 4434 SC files, and examine whether unlawfully killed at a British camp, and that others had there had been any non-disclosure of information in been mistreated at that camp and later at a detention relation to criminal court proceedings. In July 2008 the facility. The Ministry of Defence found no credible Attorney-General announced that the review had concluded evidence to support these allegations, but failings in the that there were no grounds to suggest such non-disclosure disclosure process meant that the Department could of information. The Attorney-General also announced not reassure the court that it was in possession of all the that DCSF had agreed with a recommendation that it material it needed to make rulings on these matters. As should conduct a similar review, focusing on 82 SC files a result, the Ministry of Defence proposed that there that the CPS identified as being linked to court proceedings should be a fresh investigation of the allegations, either of some kind, to ascertain if there had been any non- by the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) or in the disclosure of information in relation to family court form of a public inquiry. Following a scoping exercise proceedings. the MPS informed the court that it would not undertake DCSF commenced the review in August 2009. It an investigation. involved a total of 78 SC files, which represented all the A public inquiry into the allegations will therefore be SC file material that could be located by the Hospital held under the Inquiries Act 2005. It will be chaired by Trusts. Four SC files were unable to be traced. Sir Thayne Forbes, who retired from the High Court DCSF arranged for the NSPCC to review the SC Files Bench last year. Sir Thayne’s wide experience will be as an independent expert reviewer, and agreed to accept invaluable and I am grateful to him for taking on this their findings in their entirety. The review team comprised important task. He has decided to chair the inquiry three NSPCC consultants with expertise in child protection alone, that is without other panel members. Whether he investigations. appoints assessors who can assist him with expert knowledge The NSPPC examined each case file to identify whether and advice is a matter for him. there was material that raised child protection concerns, The inquiry’s terms of reference are: and subsequently whether that material could potentially To investigate and report on the allegations made by the have influenced the outcome of a child protection case claimants in the Al- Sweady judicial review proceedings against had it been shared with local authority children’s social British soldiers of (l) unlawful killing at Camp Abu Naji on care services at the time. These considerations enabled 14 and 15 May 2004, and (2) the ill-treatment of five Iraqi the review team to report back to DCSF whether any nationals detained at Camp Abu Naji and subsequently at the case file needed to be referred on to the relevant local divisional temporary detention facility at Shaibah Logistics authority for further review, on the basis that the file Base between 14 May and 23 September 2004, taking account contained material that may not have been previously of the investigations which have already taken place, and to make recommendations. known to the local authority. The inquiry will, of course, have the full support of The NSPCC review team have concluded the review the Ministry of Defence. Arrangements are being made and provided DCSF with a report of their findings. The to ensure that personnel who will be required to assist conclusions are: the inquiry are provided with the necessary legal support. of the 78 SC files reviewed, information was found raising Much work is in hand to ensure that the difficulties over child protection concerns in 76 cases. Two of the SC files were disclosure which arose in the judicial review proceedings found to relate to instances where Dr. Southall was asked to prepare reports where abuse was not suspected are resolved and that the inquiry has all the material it needs. in each of these 76 cases there was evidence of this information being known to the local authority children’s social care and/or the police. HEALTH The review team recommended that none of the 78 files should be referred back to the local authority for further investigation. I accept these findings in their Personal Care at Home entirety, and have written informing the Attorney-General of the conclusion of the review. The NSPCC’s report on its findings has today been placed in the Libraries of The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil both Houses. Hope): The Department has today published the consultation document—“Personal Care at Home: a consultation on proposals for regulations and guidance”. DEFENCE The Personal Care at Home Bill, published today, contains new proposals costing £670 million, which are the Government’s first step towards setting up a new Al-Sweady Inquiry National Care Service—a simple, fair and affordable care system for everyone. The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. ): Subject to parliamentary approval, from next October, Over 120,000 British troops have served in Iraq and the older people and younger disabled people will be better conduct of the vast majority has been of the highest helped to live independently for longer in their own order. Although there have been instances of misconduct, homes—something they tell us they really want. 83WS Written Ministerial Statements25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 84WS

The Bill guarantees free personal care for the 280,000 Justice of Appeal. The purpose of that order was to people—including those with serious dementia or allow for an increase of one Lord Justice to enable the Parkinson’s disease—with the highest needs. Some of Chair of the Law Commission to be of that rank rather those already get free care—this Bill will protect their than a High Court Judge as had been the case. To offset savings from future charges. Others will get free care for the additional costs I had agreed with the then Lord the first time. We will also help around 130,000 people Chief Justice that we would leave vacant the 108th who need home care for the first time to regain their statutorily available High Court Judge post. Assurances independence. were given to both Houses that the cost of this decision was simply the difference between the annual salary This intensive help or “re-ablement” will help people cost of a High Court Judge and that of a Lord Justice. to regain their independence and prevent ill health. This Additionally, in response to a specific question raised in means people will maintain their dignity and rebuild the House of Lords, an assurance was given that the their confidence so that they can live at home for longer. decision to leave the 108th High Court Judge post Helping people to stay in their own homes could involve vacant would not cause uncontainable work pressures adapting their homes. on the remainder of the High Court Bench. New equipment installed in people’s homes to help Workload across all three divisions of the High Court them stay there could include electronic pill dispensers has since increased significantly. Family division work or movement activated alarms using the voice of a has increased by 10 per cent., Chancery by 30 per cent. grandchild to remind an elderly person to close the and Queen’s Bench by just under 8.5 per cent. In addition door, for example. Helping people to stay in their own there has been an increase in the number of long cases homes and adjust their living conditions so they can which has an additional impact on lengthening waiting stay safely, puts prevention at the heart of the system. times. I am satisfied that now is the time to increase the The consultation covers three main areas: size of the High Court Bench to help contain this what should be contained in the regulations made under the increased workload. Bill; The annual cost of this additional High Court Judge what should be contained in the guidance accompanying the will be £249,000 (including National Insurance and regulations; and pension contributions) and will be contained within suggests three ways of allocating funding to councils. existing budgets, mainly through the reduction of deputy The consultation document has been placed in the sitting days. Library and copies are available for hon. Members from the Vote Office. SCOTLAND JUSTICE High Court Judges Scotland’s Future in the United Kingdom

The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor (Mr. ): Following discussions with the current The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): Lord Chief Justice and an evaluation of the current I have today published a White Paper on the Government’s workload pressures on the High Court Bench I have plans about devolution in Scotland. The White agreed that it is now appropriate to accede to the Lord Paper that we are publishing today takes forward Chief Justice’s recent request for the 108th High Court recommendations from the final report of the Commission Judge post to be filled. on Scottish Devolution. I would like to thank Sir Kenneth On 9 and 12 June 2008 the House of Commons and Calman and his commissioners for their work on this the House of Lords respectively debated an Order in report. I will today make an oral statement to the Council relating to an increase in the number of Lords House.

5P Petitions25 NOVEMBER 2009 Petitions 6P

leading to injustice, as found by the Parliamentary Petition Ombudsman in her report upon Equitable Life, ordered by the House of Commons to be printed on 16 July Wednesday 25 November 2009 2008 and bearing reference number HC 815; and further declares that the Petitioners or those whom they represent or support have suffered regulatory failure on the part PRESENTED PETITION of the public bodies responsible from the year 1992 Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor onwards, but have not received compensation for the resulting losses and outrage. Equitable Life (Kingston and Surbiton) The Petitioners therefore request that the House The Petition of residents of the constituency of Kingston of Commons urges the Government to uphold the and Surbiton in Greater London and others constitutional standing of the Parliamentary Ombudsman Declares that the Petitioners either are or they represent by complying with the findings and recommendations or support members, former members or personal of her Report upon Equitable Life.—[Presented by representatives of deceased members of the Equitable Mr. Edward Davey .] Life Assurance Society who have suffered maladministration [P000431]

131W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 132W

eleven Boroughs will co-locate during the period December Written Answers to 2009 to July 2010. The project includes provision for a post implementation review. The outcome from this Questions review will enable the CPS to consider whether this London initiative has wider application across England and Wales. Wednesday 25 November 2009

TRANSPORT SOLICITOR-GENERAL Climate Change M18: Repairs and Maintenance

Simon Hughes: To ask the Solicitor-General how Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, many (a) Ministers and (b) civil servants from the Law Department for Transport what the reasons were for the Officers’ Departments will be attending the United closing off of one lane on the southbound carriageway Nations Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen in of the M18 motorway on 24 October 2009, north and an official capacity. [300987] south of junction six; and what work was undertaken on that carriageway on that date. [300572] The Solicitor-General: No Ministers or civil servants from the Law Officers Department’s will be attending Chris Mole [holding answer 24 November 2009]: The the United Nations Climate Change Conference in closure was to carry out advance works for the M18 Copenhagen in an official capacity. J6-J7 north bound carriageway resurfacing scheme. The works comprised the installation of closed circuit television Fraud: Prosecutions systems and average speed measuring systems which will mitigate the risk to road workers during the main Chris Huhne: To ask the Solicitor-General if she will works. The scheme will be completed before Christmas. make an assessment of the effectiveness of the co-ordination of arrangements for the prosecution of M5: Cameras cases of fraud. [300756]

The Solicitor-General: England and Wales have an Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, established network of specialist anti-fraud prosecutors. Department for Transport what the purpose is of fixed The Attorney General and I keep their effectiveness cameras on the M5 motorway. [300573] under review, Our most recent assessment, coordinated by the Serious Fraud Office and the National Fraud Chris Mole [holding answer 24 November 2009]: On Authority and involving the Association of Chief Police the M5 motorway the Highways Agency has three types Officers, City of London Police, Metropolitan Police of fixed camera in use. Service, Serious Organised Crime Agency, Crown CCTV Cameras allow real-time traffic conditions to be Prosecution Service, the Department for Business monitored by the Highways Agency’s National and Innovation and Skills, Companies Investigation Branch, Regional Traffic Control Centres, enabling an efficient Office of Fair Trading, Financial Services Authority, response to be made to incidents. The cameras also feed Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, Revenue and traffic information to a variety of information and Customs Prosecutions Office, the Home Office and the media services for drivers to plan their journeys. Attorney General’s Office has resulted in further work, Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras being planned to strengthen multi-agency collaboration link to a system which converts and anonymises number on the detection, disruption, investigation and prosecution plates to ’tag’ codes for each passing vehicle at each of fraud. Details of this work will be set out in a report camera location. The ’tag’ codes are then used to calculate on progress against the National Fraud Strategy which traffic flows and speed between camera locations in will be published shortly. order to inform our understanding of network performance. Prosecutions Average speed cameras are positioned temporarily at major roadwork sites to improve safety for road users and the workforce on the motorway. The cameras monitor Chris Huhne: To ask the Solicitor-General what recent vehicle speed between two points and check the average progress has been made on national implementation of speed compliance with the speed limit. integrated prosecution teams. [300729]

The Solicitor-General: The Integrated Prosecution Network Rail: Consultants Team (IPT) project, which has been introduced across London, will create an integrated process that brings Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Minister of State, together pre-trial and case build functions of the police Department for Transport how much Network Rail has and the CPS. The aim of the project is to improve the spent on consultants in each year since the company efficiency and effectiveness of casework handling between was placed in the public sector. [300498] the police and the CPS. Teams will be mostly located in police stations. IPT is functional in 16 Boroughs (50 per Chris Mole: Network Rail is a private sector not-for- cent.) across London. A further five boroughs have dividend company limited by guarantee. The Department commenced the IPT implementation process. The remaining for Transport does not hold the information requested. 133W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 134W

This is an operational matter for Network Rail as the warning of or imposing height restrictions. These signs owner and operator of the national rail network. My are currently prescribed in TSRGD but the use of hon. Friend should contact Network Rail’s Chief Executive dual-unit signing is discretionary. at the following address for a response to her question: The consultation document is on the Department’s Iain Coucher website at the following address and the consultation Chief Executive closes on 24 December 2009: Network Rail www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/ Kings Place trafficsignsamendmentregs/ 90 York Way Evidence presented by Network Rail suggests that London, N1 9AG. 10-12 per cent. of bridge strikes involved foreign lorries and this is disproportionately high. Current policy has Ports: Liverpool also been informed by a 2004 TRL research report ’Measures to Reduce the Frequency of Over-Height Vehicles Striking Bridges: Final Report’, which covers Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department signing issues. The report is on the Department’s website for Transport whether he plans to seek advice from the at the following address: European Commission on his Department’s decision on whether to approve proposals on the relaxation of www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/research/ restrictions on the use of the Liverpool cruise terminal. educevehiclesstrikingbridges/ urestoreducethefrequency4172.pdf [300743] The consultation proposals are intended to help reduce Paul Clark: The Department for Transport is assessing the risk of bridge strikes by foreign lorry drivers who the competition issues associated with the request to may misunderstand imperial-only measurements. relax the restrictions. There are no centrally-held records on the nature of If the conclusion is that there would be no distortion traffic signs placed for all locations where vehicles have of competition, Government Office for the North West struck bridges. would further examine state aid implications, before seeking advice from the European Commission. Speed Limits: Cameras Railways: Finance Chloe Smith: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Minister of State, for Transport, how many speed cameras there were in Department for Transport what level of Government Norwich North constituency on the latest date for subsidy has been available to each train operator in each which information is available. [301703] of the last five years. [300497] Paul Clark: Separate information about cameras Chris Mole: This information is published annually operating in Norwich North is not held. The number of by the Office of Rail Regulation in National Rail Trends. camera sites operating in Norfolk at the end of the Copies are available in the Library of the House and National Safety Camera Programme, which ended on online at: 31 March 2007, was 37. Since then, the deployment of http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1863 safety cameras has been the responsibility of individual local partnerships. The number of cameras currently in Road Signs and Markings: Bridges place will therefore be a matter for Norfolk county council and the local road safety partnership. Mr. Hollobone: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport (1) what proposals his Department has issued on making metric measurements mandatory on road signs warning of or imposing height restrictions; and what the (a) status of and (b) evidential basis for SCOTLAND such proposals is; [300974] (2) what information his Department holds on the nature of the signage in place at locations where Health Care and Housing: Armed Forces vehicles have struck bridges; [300977] (3) what research has been (a) commissioned and 11. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) evaluated by his Department on the adequacy of Scotland if he will discuss with the Secretary of State the signage in place at locations where vehicles have for Defence the provision of healthcare and housing struck bridges; and whether any such research has been for members of the armed forces based in Scotland taken into account in the formulation of proposals to who are returning from active service overseas. [300135] make metric measurements mandatory on road signs warning of or imposing height restrictions. [300978] Ann McKechin: The principles underlying the provision of healthcare and housing to members of the armed Mr. Khan [holding answer 23 November 2009]: The forces returning from operational deployment to Scotland Department for Transport is currently consulting on are no different from those for other parts of the UK. I amendments to Traffic Signs Regulations and General do however, have regular discussions with Defence and Directions 2002 (TSRGD) which include the mandatory Scottish Ministers about armed forces personnel in use of both imperial and metric units on road signs Scotland. 135W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 136W

Devolution Departmental Vehicles

12. Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with Ministerial Scotland what estimate he has made of the cost to his colleagues on the recommendations of the final report Department of providing official cars for the use of of the Commission on Scottish Devolution; and if he (a) Ministers and (b) officials in the last 12 months. will make a statement. [300136] [301177]

Mr. Jim Murphy: I have had many discussions with Ann McKechin: I refer the hon. Member to the written Cabinet colleagues during preparation of Government ministerial statement made by my hon. Friend the proposals for future of Scotland within the United Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport, Kingdom. I will make a statement shortly. the hon. Member for Gillingham (Paul Clark), on 16 July 2009, Official Report, column 80WS. Digital Economy Bill Immigration: Scotland

13. Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on the Home Secretary regarding immigration into Scotland. application of the provisions of the Digital Economy [301049] Bill to Scotland. [300137] Ann McKechin: The Secretary of State for Scotland Ann McKechin: The Secretary of State for Scotland is works in partnership with the Home Office, UKBA, the in regular contact with the Secretary of State for Culture, Scottish Government, local authorities and third sector Media and Sport on a variety of issues. groups across Scotland to ensure that immigration levels are monitored appropriately. The greatest number of those who choose to move to Scotland to live and work, Small Businesses: UK Financial Investments reside in other parts of the UK.

14. Mr. Alan Reid: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on assistance for small businesses in ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Scotland from banks in which UK Financial Investments Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund is a major shareholder. [300138] Tom Levitt: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Jim Murphy: I have regular discussions with my Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much money ministerial colleagues on a range of matters. Both Lloyds from the Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund (a) was and RBS reaffirmed their commitment to lend an additional allocated to each local authority in 2008-09 and (b) has £39 billion over the 12 months from March 2009. been so allocated in 2009-10; whether his Department keeps a record of the purposes to which such funding is Departmental Meetings put; and what assessment he has made of the (i) past and (ii) future use of such monies in accordance with Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the objectives set for the fund. [301347] Scotland which (a) individuals other than Ministerial colleagues and officials of his Department and (b) Huw Irranca-Davies: In total, £3 million from the organisations he met in an official capacity in the week Aggregate Levy Sustainability Fund (ALSF) has been allocated to local authorities in each financial year of commencing 9 November 2009. [301153] 2008-09 and 2009-10. The funding was allocated to the 18 local authorities with the highest aggregates production, Mr. Jim Murphy: In its response to a report by the in proportion to production levels in each of those Public Administration Select Committee “Lobbying: authorities. A full breakdown is provided in the following Access and influence in Whitehall”, the Government table. agreed to publish on-line, on a quarterly basis, information about ministerial meetings with outside interest groups. Local authority £000 Information for the period 1 October to 31 December 2009 will be published by Departments as soon as the Somerset 330 information is ready. Derbyshire 330 Leicestershire 330 Departmental Rail Travel North Yorkshire 308 Staffordshire 210 Cumbria 150 Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Lancashire 143 Scotland on what date he last travelled by train in the Devon 120 course of his official duties. [301193] Essex 112 Lincolnshire 107 Mr. Jim Murphy: I last travelled by train in the course Durham 107 of my official duties on 3 November 2009. 137W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 138W

the research project commissioned by his Department Local authority £000 on the effects of electronic training aids on the welfare Doncaster 107 of dogs to be completed; how much the research has Shropshire 107 cost; when he expects to announce his decision on the Cornwall 107 regulation of the use of electronic shock collars; and if Nottinghamshire 107 he will make a statement. [301024] Gloucestershire 107 North Somerset 107 Jim Fitzpatrick: The research project on electronic South Gloucestershire 107 training aids for dogs is due to be completed at the end of February 2010. The cost of the research project will In addition, £500,000 was allocated in each year to be £469,000. We will not be able to announce any ACRE (Action for Communities in Rural England) to decision on the future use of such devices until the support projects in the remaining local authority areas. results of the research have been peer-reviewed, and we Funds are provided to local authorities via an area-based have had the time to fully consider the results. grant which gives them freedom over how to spend Genetically Modified Organisms: Food money locally.There is no requirement for local authorities to report directly to DEFRA, but some, including Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Derbyshire, do put data about their projects onto DEFRA’s Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many ALSF database. Reports reviewing ALSF, including genetically modified food trials the Government has local authority funding, were undertaken in 2003 and licensed (a) in each region and (b) for each species in 2006 and a further review is planned for early 2010. each of the last five years; how much his Department has spent on genetically-modified food trials in each of Dogs: Electric Shock Equipment those years; and if he will make a statement. [301025]

Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Fitzpatrick: In the last five years DEFRA has Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he expects issued three consents for GM crop trials as follows:

Consent ref. Applicant Crop Date of consent Release site

06/R42/01 BASF Plant Science GmbH Potato 1 December 2006 Girton, Cambs. 07/R42/01 BASF Plant Science GmbH Potato 14 May 2007 Trial did not proceed—no material grown 07/R31/01 University of Leeds Potato 9 May 2008 Bramham, Leeds

The trials by Leeds university formed part of a wider are in place to ensure that police are trained to enforce research project on the control of potato cyst nematodes, EC regulations 338/97 and 865/2006 on the implementation funded mainly by the Biotechnology and Biological of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Sciences Research Council, and with a contribution Species in respect of the requirement for Article 10 from DEFRA under a Government Partnership Award certificates, with particular reference to endangered primates. programme. DEFRA’s contribution to the overall project [300311] costs was £41,000 in 2005 and £18,000 in 2009. Specific cost figures just for the field trial component of the Huw Irranca-Davies: The police service is primarily project are not readily available. The BASF trials were responsible for training its officers in those areas where entirely funded by the company. it has enforcement responsibility. Horses: Animal Welfare In addition, members of the Partnership for Action Against Wildlife Crime (PAW) provide assistance and Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for support in this specialist area of enforcement, including Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment training opportunities. Members of PAW include the has been made of the compatibility of the horse-riding UK Border Agency and the UK’s Convention on activities which form part of the Appleby Horse Fair International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) with the provisions of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. Scientific Authorities. [301213] Animal Health (an Executive agency of DEFRA) Jim Fitzpatrick: It is DEFRA’s understanding that also provides advice and information on CITES to the RSPCA are present at the Appleby Horse Fair and police officers on request. work closely with participants to encourage adherence to good standards of horse welfare. Pets: Retail Trade If anyone has any evidence of unnecessary suffering or if animal welfare is being compromised, then they Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for can either report it to the appropriate authorities or Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many local take forward a prosecution under the Animal Welfare authorities provide evidence to his Department on the Act 2006. enforcement of the Pet Animals Act 1951 Model Nature Conservation: Trade Standards for Pet Shop Licence Conditions; and what mechanisms his Department uses to verify compliance Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for with those conditions by (a) local authorities and (b) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what mechanisms pet shop owners. [300310] 139W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 140W

Jim Fitzpatrick: Local authorities are required to Jim Fitzpatrick: No assessment has been made since enforce the Pet Animals Act 1951 (as amended, 1983). the Schedule to the Dangerous Wild Animals Act was However, local authorities are not bound to use the amended in 2007 with regard to the levels of non- Chartered Institute for Environmental Health’s Model compliance. Standards as guidance. If anyone considers that a particular authority is not enforcing the 1951 Act or is not applying appropriate standards they can report it to the local government ombudsman. TREASURY

Sewers: Private Sector Banks: Pay

Paddy Tipping: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Exchequer if he will introduce legislative proposals to steps he has taken to enable private sewers to be limit the remuneration of directors of banks with deposit- transferred to water and sewerage undertakers; and if taking licences to 10 times the average wage paid to he will make a statement. [301133] employees of that bank. [300726] Huw Irranca-Davies: On 15 December 2008 the Secretary of State announced the Government’s decision to transfer Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government have taken all private sewers and lateral drains linked to the public steps to ensure that remuneration paid at systemically sewerage system from 2011. Since that announcement significant financial institutions is commensurate with a officials have been working to prepare proposals to prudent approach to risk and leads to long-term value prevent the proliferation of new private sewers as a creation. The FSA code, which comes into force on precursor to the transfer of the existing stock. The 1 January 2010, includes requirements for deferral and proposals are contained in the Flood and Water clawback from significant banking and other institutions. Management Bill, which was presented to Parliament In addition, the Government are taking legislative measures on 19 November. in the Financial Services Bill that will strengthen the FSA’s hand and enable improved disclosure of The Bill’s provisions will ensure that, in future, all remuneration, which in turn will facilitate better shareholder new sewers and lateral drains connecting to the public oversight of risk. sewerage system will be required to be built to a mandatory standard and will be automatically adopted by water and sewerage companies as public sewers. Christmas Officials have also been developing detailed proposals for regulations to implement the transfer of existing Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the private sewers and lateral drains that will be the subject Exchequer how many Christmas parties his Department of consultation this winter, prior to the regulations plans to host in 2009; what has been budgeted for each themselves being presented to Parliament for approval. such reception; what estimate he has made of the proportion of (a) lamb, (b) beef, (c) chicken, (d) pork, (e) turkey, Wildlife: Finance (f) other meats, (g) vegetables, (h) fruit and (i) alcohol to be served at each such function which is produced in the UK; and if he will make a statement. [300865] Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many local authorities applied to his Department for funding to Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Treasury does not plan to support local wildlife facilities in each of the last five host any Christmas parties in 2009. Where parties are years. [300771] held within the Department, these are arranged and paid for by staff themselves. Huw Irranca-Davies: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 17 January 2008, Official Report, column Corporation Tax 1394W, by my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock), to the same question. We do Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the not directly fund, or keep a national register of, small Exchequer if he will estimate the revenue which would community-led projects tackling the local environment, be raised by treating all capital gains accruing to companies important though these are. My hon. Friend is welcome as income and taxing them at the appropriate corporate to write to me with a more specific request and I will tax rate in 2009-10. [300725] respond to him. Mr. Timms: No additional revenues would be raised. Wildlife: Licensing Companies capital gains are charged to corporation tax as part of their total profits, at the same rate as any Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for income profits. Consequently companies’ chargeable Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent gains are already taxed at the relevant rate of corporation assessment he has made of the effect of revisions to tax for 2009-10. It is highly probable that there would the schedule of restricted species of dangerous wild be a fall in net receipts once account is taken of any animals on the level of non-compliance with licensing accumulated capital losses which are currently only requirements under the Dangerous Wild Animals given relief against future capital gains, rather than Act 1976. [300309] income. 141W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 142W

Departmental Assets Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Treasury Group’s Value for Money Delivery Agreement, revised in July 2009, a Dr. Cable: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer copy of which is available in the Library of the House, what assets of his Department are planned to be sold in sets out how it is aiming to deliver £35 million of VfM each year from 2009-10 to 2013-14; what the (a) savings by 2010-11, including £5 million increased at description and (b) book value of each such asset is; Budget 2009 as a result of work on the Operational what the expected revenue from each such sale is; and if Efficiency Programme (OEP). he will make a statement. [300209] The Treasury Group will provide an update on progress towards delivering its VfM target in its Autumn Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government have stated Performance Report. Details of VfM plans beyond the their intention to realise £16 billion in asset disposals current spending review period are not yet available. over the period 2011-14 and will publish further details of opportunities to commercialise business assets in the Departmental Disclosure of Information coming weeks. The Treasury’s Asset Management Strategy was Norman Baker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer published in December 2007 on the Treasury’s website how many allegations of victimisation for whistleblowing at: have been made to his Department by its staff since http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/vfm_deliveryagreement 6 June 2006. [301488] It stated that with the disposals in 2007-08, the Treasury Group will have met the Government’s aim that each Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Since 6 June 2006 there have Department should dispose of at least 10 per cent. of its been no official allegations of victimisation for asset stock in the period 2004-05 to 2010-11. There will whistleblowing by Treasury staff. be limited opportunities to make any further disposals in the remainder of the period through to 2010-11. Departmental Food

Departmental Coordination: Economic Situation Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the proportion Mr. Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer of (a) lamb, (b) beef, (c) chicken, (d) pork, (e) by what mechanism the activities of HM Treasury and turkey, (f) other meats, (g) vegetables and (h) fruit the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to procured by his Department that was produced in the tackle the recession are co-ordinated. [300223] UK in the latest period for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement. [300181] Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Treasury Ministers and officials are in constant contact with colleagues in BIS Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The following table shows the on economic policy matters including those activities information requested, where such food products were designed to tackle the recession. procured by contractors supplying food to HM Treasury during 2008-09. The National Economic Council is a full Cabinet Committee introduced in October 2008 to provide a Food procured from within UK: 1 April 2008 To 31 March 2009 new approach to managing economic policies across Percentage Government in the context of the immense challenges (a) Mutton and lamb 87 created by recent global financial and economic uncertainties. (b) Beef and veal 92 The Chancellor and the —as well as other HMT and BIS Ministers—are members of the National Economic Council, which meets frequently (c) Poultry meat, including chicken and turkey 35 and to assess the implications of the ongoing challenges in (e) the financial markets for the wider economy, at both a global and national level. (d) Bacon 15 In addition, both HM Treasury and BIS are jointly Other Pork 95 responsible for public service agreement 1 (PSA 1)—to raise the productivity of the UK economy.This mechanism provides a forum for coordinating action across member (g) Unprocessed potatoes 90 departments. Processed potatoes 82 Roots and Onions (including carrots, 70 Departmental Cost Effectiveness parsnips, onions, turnips and Swedes) Brassica (including Brussels sprouts, cabbage 75 and cauliflower) Dr. Cable: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Legumes (including beans and peas) 55 what efficiency savings projects (a) his Department and (b) its agencies put in place under the Operational Protected vegetables (including tomatoes, 35 cucumbers, lettuce, celery and sweet peppers) Efficiency Programme; on what date each such project Other vegetables (including asparagus, celery, 45 was initiated; how much each such project was leeks, lettuce and watercress) expected to contribute to Departmental savings; how much had been saved through each such project on the (h) Orchard fruit (including apples, pears and 20 latest date for which figures are available; and if he will plums) make a statement. [300940] 143W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 144W

Food procured from within UK: 1 April 2008 To 31 March 2009 Departmental Taxis Percentage

Soft fruit (including strawberries, raspberries, 35 Ian Stewart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer blackberries and blackcurrants) what contracts his Department has with private hire taxi companies; and what expenditure his Department Departmental Legal Costs has incurred under each such contract in each of the last three years. [300827] Pete Wishart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the (a) cost and (b) purpose was of legal (i) Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Treasury has had contracts representation and (ii) advice sought by his Department with two taxi companies in the past three completed financial years. The following table sets out the total and its agencies in each year since May 1997. [300374] expenditure on each. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The information requested could not be provided within the disproportionate costs threshold. £000 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Departmental Meetings Premier Despatch 168 139 216 Ltd., London1 Norman Baker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 1st Goldstar Taxis, —813 which (a) individuals other than ministerial colleagues Norwich and officials of his Department and (b) organisations 1 Premier Despatch Ltd was acquired by Addison Lee in February he met in an official capacity in the week commencing 2009 9 November 2009. [301167] Departmental Working Hours

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury Ministers and officials Andrew Selous: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer have meetings with a wide variety of organisations in how many and what proportion of staff of his Department, the public and private sectors as part of the process of its executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies policy development and delivery. As was the case with work flexibly or part-time; and what his Department’s previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s policy is on making jobs available on a job-share or practice to provide details of all such meetings. flexible basis. [301332]

Departmental Pay Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Treasury and OGC offer flexible working and job share to staff, where operational John Mason: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer constraints permit, as a tool to improve work/life balance. what (a) bonuses and (b) incentives have been paid to Many flexible working arrangements including job share (i) consultants and (ii) contractors engaged by his are made informally between managers and staff and Department in each of the last three years. [300651] are not formally recorded. This information could only therefore be provided at disproportionate cost. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Department does not The UK Debt Management Office has thirteen staff normally pay bonuses to consultants or contractors. who work either flexibly or part-time, representing Performance incentives may be included within contracts, proportionately 13.13 per cent. of staff. The UK Debt where appropriate, and paid according to the terms of Management Office has an “Alternative Working those contracts. However, analysis of all the contracts Arrangements” policy by which staff may make an in each of the last three financial years to determine application for working either flexibly or on a part-time whether incentives were paid could not be provided basis. Decisions are taken on the basis of statutory and within the disproportionate costs threshold. business requirements and on a case by case basis. John Mason: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Financial Services: Regulation what (a) bonuses and (b) incentives have been paid to (i) consultants and (ii) contractors engaged by Bill Wiggin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies what his assessment is of the proposals in the Financial for which his Department is responsible in each of the Services Authority’s Retail Distribution Review, with last three years. [300652] particular reference to their effects on independent financial advisers; and if he will make a statement. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Debt Management Office [301436] have not paid any bonuses or provided any incentives to consultants or contractors. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Retail Distribution Review is a matter for the FSA, as the independent regulator. Departmental Rail Travel The FSA published a cost-benefit analysis alongside its latest proposals, as well as further analysis by independent Norman Baker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer consultants, on the FSA website. on what date he last travelled by train in the course of Generic Financial Advice Review his official duties. [301206] Dr. Cable: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent steps his Department has taken to implement travels regularly by train in the course of his official the findings of the Thoresen Review of generic financial duties. advice which the Government have accepted. [301222] 145W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 146W

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government are testing Monetary Policy the Thoresen Review’s blueprint for a generic financial advice or ’Money Guidance’ service through a large-scale Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the pilot or pathfinder in the North West and North East of Exchequer what his most recent assessment is of the England. The £12 million pathfinder is jointly funded effects of quantitative easing on levels of high street and delivered by HM Treasury and the Financial Services credit; and if he will make a statement. [300291] Authority. Launched in April, it is on track to meet its target to reach over 500,000 people by March 2010, Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Bank of England has through the Moneymadeclear website, helpline and face operational responsibility for monetary policy, including to face services provided by a wide range of local use of the Asset Purchase Facility. The Bank publishes partners. The Moneymadeclear website and helpline is quarterly reports on the APF, the first of which was also available UK-wide. published on 27 April with subsequent reports published Interim evaluation findings from the pathfinder indicate on 27 July and 26 October. The Bank also reports on that the Money Guidance service can be effective and the APF in its Inflation Report and Quarterly Bulletin the Money Guidance service will therefore be rolled out and regularly publishes operational information for the nationally from spring 2010. The Financial Services Bill APF on its website. introduced in the Commons on 19 November includes Public Expenditure provisions for a new consumer financial education body which will lead and direct funding to national Dr. Cable: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer implementation of Money Guidance. what (a) primary and (b) secondary legislation is planned for the implementation of the Clear Line of Government Securities Sight Project. [300354] Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Byrne: The Constitutional Reform and Governance Exchequer what cost benefit analyses his Department Bill contains two clauses in Part 8 of the Bill that relate carried out to assess the value for money of the issuance to implementation of the Clear Line of Sight project. of a sterling sukuk; and if he will make a statement. Clause 57 makes provision to include the spending of [300292] non-departmental public bodies, and other central Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government have looked Government bodies so designated by HM Treasury, in carefully at the case for issuing sovereign sukuk and the Supply Estimates and resource accounts of the concluded that it would not offer value for money at the responsible Government Department. Clause 52 makes present time but it will keep the situation under review. corresponding provision by amending part 5 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 to enable the Welsh Housing: Valuation Assembly Government to include in their annual Budget motions information on the use of resources by bodies Mr. Lansley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer funded by the Assembly. how many properties are recorded with each individual Both clauses provide for a statutory instrument to (a) dwellinghouse code and (b) value significant code contain an order listing the bodies to be designated. in the local authority area of South Cambridgeshire; and what the category for (i) type, (ii) number of Bill Wiggin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer rooms, (iii) number of bedrooms, (iv) number of what discussions he has had with each of his Cabinet bathrooms, (v) number of floors, (vi) floor level, (vii) colleagues on plans for the next comprehensive spending parking, (viii) garaging, (ix) conservatory type, (x) age, review; when he expects to announce the arrangements (xi) outbuilding and (xii) modernisation code was for the next comprehensive spending review; and if he according to electronic records held by the Valuation will make a statement. [301533] Office Agency. [300362] Mr. Byrne: Departmental budgets have been set to : A table showing the number of properties financial year 2010-11. The Chancellor of the Exchequer with each individual dwellinghouse code and each value will announce the timing of the spending review process significant code, for all local authority areas, has been to set budgets from financial year 2011-12 in the normal placed in the Freedom of Information Disclosure Log way. The Chancellor will set out more detail on the on the Valuation Office Agency’s website in Excel format. Government’s spending plans at the pre-Budget report A link to the information is as follows: 2009. http://www.voa.gov.uk/publications/access-to-information/ Disclosure_Log_Internet_vB_publish6.doc Tax Allowances: Pensions Income Tax Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the tax revenue Exchequer if he will estimate the tax revenues likely to which would be raised by limiting tax relief on pension be raised as a consequence of the treatment for income contributions to the basic rate of income tax only for all tax purposes of all capital gains accruing to individuals taxpayers in 2009-10. [300728] as income. [301502] Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Latest detailed estimates of the Mr. Timms: Due to the difficulties of assessing the annual cost of tax relief in relation to registered pension large behavioural responses, which would result from a schemes are available in Table 7.9 on HM Revenue and change of this kind, a reliable estimate can be determined Customs website at: only at disproportionate cost. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/pensions/menu.htm 147W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 148W

Tax Allowances: Professional Organisations each such project was initiated; how much each such project was expected to contribute to the Office’s Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the savings; how much had been saved through each such Exchequer if he will estimate the tax revenues likely to project on the latest date for which figures are available; be raised as a consequence of the ending of tax relief and if she will make a statement. [300936] on professional subscriptions paid by accountants and lawyers. [301504] : My ministerial portfolio requires my office to operate out of the Cabinet Office and the Mr. Timms: Information on the tax relief given for Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Both payments made for professional fees and subscriptions Departments have Operational Efficiency Programmes, is not available by industry or professionalism. the details of which are outlined in the answers provided by the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Taxation: EU Countries Culture Media and Sport and the Minister of State for the Cabinet Office, respectively. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will assess the effect of tax competition in the Third Sector Organisations European Union on revenues to the UK Exchequer; and if he will make a statement. [300316] Patrick Mercer: To ask the Minister for the Olympics what funding her Office has allocated to third sector Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Tax developments in all EU organisations to develop their sporting facilities as part member states are continuously monitored and taken of the plans for the legacy from the London 2012 into account when deciding tax policy. Olympics; and if she will make a statement. [300321] The comparisons we make illustrate that the UK remains a competitive place to do business with the Tessa Jowell: An element of the Olympic Delivery lowest corporation tax rate of the major G7 economies. Authority’s (ODA) budget has been allocated for upgrading local host borough sporting facilities for use as Games-time The Government remain committed to maintaining training venues, and some of these facilities may be the competitive position of the UK. owned by third sector community organisations. It is Ulster Bank expected that such facility developments will remain as a benefit in legacy. Mr. McGrady: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Works to enhance existing facilities for the Games whether he has received recent representations on the have been agreed at a number of venues including Eton foreclosure by Ulster Bank on (a) building contractors Dorney (for rowing and flat water canoeing events) and and (b) small businesses. [300910] at Weymouth and Portland National Sailing Academy (for sailing events). Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury Ministers and officials As agreements are being reached with each individual receive representations from a wide variety of organisations facility, the value of the budget available for these works in the public and private sectors as part of the process is commercially confidential. of policy development and delivery. As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of all such representations. DEFENCE

Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations OLYMPICS Olympic and Paralympic Games Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence with reference to his contribution of 15 October 2009, Patrick Mercer: To ask the Minister for the Olympics Official Report, column 466, how many Mastiff 2 and what proportion of the £9.325 billion public sector Ridgeback armoured vehicles military forces will receive funding package for the London 2012 Olympic and in (a) the UK for re-deployment training and (b) Paralympic Games has been spent since 2005-06. Afghanistan for actual combat missions; and when he [301017] expects such vehicles to be issued to forces personnel. [301526] Tessa Jowell: 33.8 per cent. of the £9.325 billion public sector funding package has been spent to the end Mr. Bob Ainsworth: I am withholding the information of September 2009. requested about how many armoured vehicles military forces will receive in Afghanistan as its disclosure would, Further information is provided in the latest London or would be likely to, prejudice the capability, effectiveness 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games quarterly economic or security of our armed forces. report (published 23 November 2009). I have placed copies in the Libraries of both Houses. However, I am able to confirm that there are currently 51 Mastiff 2 and 59 Ridgback vehicles available for Operational Efficiency Programme pre-deployment training in the UK. Under existing procurement, a further 22 Mastiff 2 for training purposes Dr. Cable: To ask the Minister for the Olympics what are due for delivery in third quarter 2010. efficiency savings projects her Office put in place under A further procurement package is being planned the Operational Efficiency Programme; on what date which will provide additional Mastiff 2 and Ridgbacks. 149W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 150W

Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence at 20 miles, and the maximum amount payable is how many troops are involved in the training of Afghan £13.39 per day. The latter represents a family home security forces in Helmand province. [301528] being 530 miles away from a place of duty. It is paid to support the mobile nature of the Services and improve Mr. Bob Ainsworth: While there are currently, retention by reducing the financial impact of separation approximately 440 UK troops directly involved in the on Service personnel. training of Afghan National Security Forces in Helmand Home to Duty (Public) is paid to those eligible service Province, over the coming year, as the UK re-configures Personnel who reside in Forces Family Accommodation, its force structure in Helmand to fully support COMISAF’s to assist with the daily cost of travel between their home partnering plan, the proportion of UK troops in Helmand and place of duty. In certain circumstances, Service involved in the training of Afghan Security forces will personnel in receipt of Get You Home Travel will not be increase significantly. eligible for concurrent payment of Home to Duty (Public). Dependant on the distance and method of travel used Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence the following maximum rates are payable: whether he plans to increase the amount of training forces personnel receive in counter-insurgency measures Miles/£ relevant to combat operations in Afghanistan. [301530] Distance each way from Place of 70 Mr. Bob Ainsworth: All forces deploying to Afghanistan Duty (miles) receive a comprehensive training package that incorporates up-to-date tactics, techniques and procedures (TTPs). Automatic motor vehicles - daily rate 25.81 These TTPs are constantly informed by a Lessons Learned (£) process ensuring that current counter-insurgency measures Manual motor vehicles - daily rate (£) 43.61 being used in Afghanistan are taught to those about to Automatic pedal cycles - monthly rate 12.43 deploy. The amount and content of such training is (£) continuously reviewed and adjusted as and when operational Manual pedal cycles - monthly rate 21.00 requirements dictate. Home to Duty (Private) is payable to those eligible Service Personnel who do not occupy Service Armed Forces: Accommodation Accommodation, to assist with the daily cost of travel between their home and place of duty. Service personnel Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence in receipt of Get You Home Travel will not be eligible with reference to the answer of 10 November 2009, for concurrent payment of Home to Duty (Private). Official Report, column 223W, on armed forces: Dependant on the distance and method of travel used accommodation, what the maximum sum payable under the following maximum rates are payable: (a) food and incidental allowance, (b) get you home travel allowance, (c) home to duty travel allowance and Miles/£ (d) recruitment and retention allowance (London) was in the latest period for which figures are available; how Distance each way from Place of Duty 70 many personnel at each (i) staff officer rank and (ii) (miles) equivalent civil service payband claimed each allowance Automatic motor vehicles - daily rate (£) 15.24 in that period; and what the single (A) highest and (B) Manual motor vehicles - daily rate (£) 25.75 lowest claim for each allowance as at each rank or Automatic pedal cycles - monthly rate (£) 7.34 payband in that period. [300247] Manual pedal cycles - monthly rate (£) 12.40

Mr. [holding answer 23 November 2009]: Most allowances are payable on qualifying criteria The allowances mentioned are paid only to Service other than rank held. The status of ’staff officer’ has a personnel who meet the relevant eligibility criteria, and number of different meanings and could be applied to a not to civilians. Rates of allowances are reviewed annually. specific appointment undertaken by a Junior Military Officer or those officers of starred rank. As a result it Food and Incidental Allowance is paid at a daily rate would be difficult to obtain information on recipients of of £12.78 (£383.40 per month, pro rata). This is paid to ’staff officer’ status, as it would require the application assist single and unaccompanied Service personnel in of varied parameters to a number of different searches the UK to meet the necessary costs of food and incidental which could be provided only at disproportionate cost. expenses when they are without access to Service All of these allowances are applicable to commissioned accommodation/messing facilities, but have self-catering and non-commissioned personnel. facilities, and does not require submission of receipts. Recruitment and Retention Allowance (London) is Armed Forces: Body Armour paid at a daily rate £3.76 for all Service Personnel who work within five miles of the statue of King Charles I at Charing Cross. This is paid to counter reluctance to Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for serve in designated London locations by contributing to Defence (1) what assessment he has made of the protection the higher costs encountered during a permanent offered to servicemen’s testicles by body armour in assignment in London and by compensating for the current use; [300545] reduced quality of the supporting infrastructure. (2) whether his Department is assessing or commissioning Get You Home Travel, the rate of which is determined research on the protection which can be provided for by the distance from a family home and the place of servicemen’s testicles with relation to blast injuries on duty. The minimum amount payable is £1.07, commencing operations; and if he will make a statement. [300547] 151W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 152W

Mr. Quentin Davies: All of the protective personal Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for equipment provided to armed forces personnel is constantly Defence how many servicemen have lost one or both under review. The Osprey body armour systems are testicles as a result of injuries received on operations in considered to be among the best in the world, and the the last five years. [300546] survival rates are testimony to that. However, a direct by-product of that is that personnel are now surviving Mr. Kevan Jones: The Ministry of Defence publishes with other associated and sometimes life-changing injuries. the numbers of personnel categorised as Very Seriously We are continually seeking ways to further protect our Injured and Seriously Injured as a result of Operations personnel, and work is well under way to research ways Telic and Herrick on its website at: of providing additional protection including for the www.mod.uk whole perineal area. The figures are updated fortnightly. In addition, we are committed to publishing on a quarterly basis the numbers Armed Forces: Injuries of service personnel who have suffered limb amputations as a result of injuries sustained while on operational Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence deployment. However, in order both to protect the what medical service and readjustment programmes identities of small numbers of patients and to maintain were provided to wounded soldiers returning from operational security for the effectiveness of our protective Afghanistan in each year since 2001; what his planned countermeasures, we do not routinely publish VSI and expenditure on these services is in each of the next five SI sub-classified by other types of physical injury. years; and if he will make a statement. [301445] Christmas Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Defence Medical Services (DMS) provide an extensive range of medical treatment and wider support for wounded Service personnel. Since Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for 2001 we have made numerous clinical and administrative Defence how many Christmas parties his Department improvements to the treatment that we provide, all of plans to host in 2009; what has been budgeted for each which are intended to improve the quality of care that such reception; what estimate he has made of the our wounded personnel receive. Where these are a proportion of (a) lamb, (b) beef, (c) chicken, (d) consequence of operational requirements, they have pork, (e) turkey, (f) other meats, (g) vegetables, (h) been funded from the Reserve (Conflict Prevention fruit and (i) alcohol to be served at each such function Fund). The Government have also funded many which is produced in the UK; and if he will make a improvements from within the Defence budget, such as statement. [300877] £24 million of additional funding over four years for the Defence Medical Rehabilitation Centre (DMRC), Mr. Bob Ainsworth: In accordance with internal Headley Court, announced in 2008. departmental guidance, staff Christmas meals and parties and service mess functions must be paid for by non-public For personnel on operations, the care starts in the funds or by staff subscription. operational theatre, with life-saving medical treatment on the frontline and in our field hospitals. Those who need further specialist care back in the UK are normally Departmental Legal Costs returned to the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine at Birmingham’s Selly Oak Hospital, which is at the leading Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence edge in the treatment of multiple trauma injuries as what expenditure his Department and its agencies have commonly sustained by our battle casualties, and has incurred on external legal advice and representation in since 2006 had a military-managed ward. each year since 1997; and for what purposes such services If patients require further rehabilitation care they have been commissioned. [300579] may be referred to Headley Court, or for outpatient treatment at one of MOD’s 15 military Regional Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The information with regard to Rehabilitation Units. We also provide mental healthcare expenditure my Department and its agencies have incurred for those who need it, primarily through our 15 military on external legal advice and representation in each year out-patient Departments of Community Mental Health since 1997 is not held centrally, and due to re-organisation across the UK (plus centres overseas); in-patient care is over the period in question could only be provided at arranged for those who need it. disproportionate cost. Wider support to those who are injured is overseen by a Welfare Coordinator, who will work with appropriate Departmental Pay specialists to offer support and advice in such areas as housing, access to services and counselling if required, Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for as well as providing support through key transition Defence how much funding his Department has allocated points, such as a move to or from Headley Court. for (a) year end and (b) in-year bonuses for staff in Medical policy for the DMS is overseen by the Surgeon 2009-10. [300723] General’s Department. However, the organisational structure of the DMS means that comprehensive budgetary Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The total paybill for some 50,000 planning information on medical care could be provided non-industrial and 11,000 industrial staff below the only at disproportionate cost as substantial elements Senior Civil Service (SCS) (excluding Trading Funds) are disaggregated and embedded in the budgets of the covered by the main pay awards is £1.827 billion of single Services, individual military units, and overall which 2.7 per cent. has been allocated for non consolidated operational budgets. performance awards for year end 2009-10. 153W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 154W

The total paybill for permanent members of the SCS The figures in the table relate to the amounts paid for is £19.3 million of which 8.6 per cent. has been allocated each calendar year. It should be noted that the answers for non consolidated performance awards for year end provided previously to this question on 6 March 2009, 2009-10. This does not include Fixed Term employees Official Report, column 1857W and 20 April 2009, at SCS level, who are employed on individual contracts. Official Report, column 65W referred to financial years 0.4 per cent of the total paybill for staff (excluding (April to March) but the amounts detailed actually Trading Funds) has been allocated for in year Special related to calendar years. Bonus Payments for year end 2009-10. Military Aircraft: EU Action European Defence Agency Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment he has made of the effects Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State of the creation of a European air transport fleet on (a) for Defence what the role is of the European Defence jobs, (b) income and (c) military operational Agency; and if he will make a statement. [300503] effectiveness in the UK. [300504]

Mr. Quentin Davies: The European Defence Agency Mr. Quentin Davies: The European Air Transport (EDA) was established in July 2004. The mission of the Fleet (EATF) aims to address shortfalls in military EDA is to support the European Council and the strategic air transport capability, for example through member states in their effort to improve the EU’s defence the pooling of aircraft or shared procurement. The UK capabilities in the field of crisis management and to will indirectly benefit from the improved aircraft availability sustain the European Security and Defence Policy (ESDP) across Europe for support to operations through increased as it stands now and develops in the future. The agency burden sharing. The UK procures military aircraft was tasked by the council to: according to our national requirements and does not Develop European defence capabilities; have spare capacity to contribute to the EATF.Therefore, Promote armaments co-operation in the EU; we do not currently plan to participate in the programme. Improve the European defence industrial and technological As such we have not carried out any detailed assessments base; and of the potential wider benefits to the UK. We will Promote collaborative defence research across the Union. continue to monitor the EATF programme and keep our position under review. Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State Ministerial Travel for Defence whether he has responded to the European Defence Agency’s Capability Development Plan. [300506] Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on what date he last travelled by train in the Mr. Quentin Davies: The Ministry of Defence supports course of his official duties. [301194] the European Defence Agency’s Capability Development Plan (CDP), which focuses the Agency’s and participating Mr. Bob Ainsworth: I last travelled by train on member states’ efforts on developing European military 24 November 2009 to visit Headley Court. capabilities in 12 selected priority areas. We participated Warships: EU Action fully in the development of the CDP and we are currently engaged in a number of the CDP programmes. We will Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State continue to support the CDP as a mechanism for addressing for Defence what role the UK will play in relation to military capability shortfalls across Europe and participate the European initiative on naval interoperability; and in projects where we see military benefit to the UK. what the principle objectives are of this initiative. [300505] Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what funding from the public purse has Mr. Quentin Davies: There are two principal European been provided to the European Defence Agency in each initiatives on naval interoperability, the European year since 2005; what assessment he has made of its Amphibious Initiative (EAI) and the European Carrier performance; and if he will make a statement. [300507] Group Interoperability Initiative (ECGII). Both initiatives seek to enhance European interoperability and capability Mr. Quentin Davies: The European Defence Agency in Amphibious and Carrier Strike Group operations (EDA) does valuable work developing European military respectively through greater cooperation and combined capabilities and works successfully with participating training and exercising at both the tactical and operational member states on collaborative programmes and projects. level. The main objective of these initiatives is that, by The amount paid by the Ministry of Defence to the working more closely together in peacetime, it will EDA in each year since 2005 is provided in the following allow for a more rapid and effective deployment of a table: multinational Amphibious or Carrier Strike Group force, when required, in the framework of NATO or EU-led Calendar year £ million operations. 2005 2.36 As a permanent member, along with France, Italy, 2006 2.09 Netherlands and Spain, and with its well developed and 2007 1.95 balanced Amphibious forces, the UK plays an important 2008 3.11 part in the EAI. The UK provides the Permanent 2009 3.03 Secretariat and in 2010 will assume the chair, which is rotated on an annual basis between its members. 155W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 156W

The UK, as a lead nation in operating Vertical and Departmental Food Short Take Off aircraft (VSTOL) from the sea, also plays an important role in the ECGII as one of its Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for permanent members, along with Belgium, France, Germany, Wales what estimate he has made of the proportion of Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal and Spain. (a) lamb, (b) beef, (c) chicken, (d) pork, (e) turkey, (f) other meats, (g) vegetables and (h) fruit procured by his Department that was produced in the UK in the WALES latest period for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement. [300177] Christmas Mr. Hain: The Wales Office does not have any in-house Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for catering. External caterers supply food and drink for Wales how many Christmas parties his Department meetings and receptions in London and Cardiff. Catering plans to host in 2009; what has been budgeted for each for functions and meetings in London and Cardiff such reception; what estimate he has made of the includes, where possible and consistent with value for proportion of (a) lamb, (b) beef, (c) chicken, (d) money, a mixture of fair trade or locally sourced produce. pork, (e) turkey, (f) other meats, (g) vegetables, (h) fruit and (i) alcohol to be served at each such function Departmental Internet which is produced in the UK; and if he will make a statement. [300864] Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many (a) page hits and (b) visitors his Mr. Hain: I plan to host a Christmas reception in Department’s website received in 2008-09. [301842] London and another in Cardiff this year. We will not be serving food, only snacks and drinks will be provided. Mr. Hain: The Wales Office has an English and Welsh I would estimate the cost of each reception to be website: around £250, although the final amount will not be known until after the events are held. www.walesoffice.gov.uk and Climate Change www.swyddfa.cymru.gov.uk The combined number of page hits for 2008-09 was Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for 71,315. Wales how many (a) Ministers and (b) civil servants from his Department will be attending the United The combined number of visitors for 2008-09 was Nations Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen in 21,150. an official capacity. [300914] Departmental Meetings Mr. Hain: None. Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Air Travel Wales which (a) individuals other than Ministerial colleagues and officials of his Department and (b) Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for organisations he met in an official capacity in the week Wales how many domestic flights within Great Britain commencing 9 November 2009. [301157] officials of his Department took in an official capacity in 2008-09; and at what cost to the public purse. Mr. Hain: In the week of 9 November I met a range [300970] of individuals and organisations who have an interest in Wales and I attended the British Irish Council. Mr. Hain: My officials took 17 domestic flights in the last financial year at a cost of £2,516.66. Departmental Pay Departmental Cost Effectiveness John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what (a) bonuses and (b) incentives have been paid to what efficiency savings projects his Department put in (i) consultants and (ii) contractors engaged by his place under the Operational Efficiency Programme; on Department in each of the last three years. [300734] what date each such project was initiated; how much each such project was expected to contribute to Mr. Hain: None. Departmental savings; how much had been saved through each such project on the latest date for which Departmental Rail Travel figures are available; and if he will make a statement. [300942] Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Hain: The Wales Office falls outside the remit of Wales on what date he last travelled by train in the the Operational Efficiency Programme as it is a small course of his official duties. [301196] office of around 60 staff. However, we are currently reviewing the scope for delivering additional efficiency Mr. Hain: I travel by train between my constituency, savings. office in Cardiff and London on a weekly basis. 157W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 158W

Departmental Scientists Helen Goodman [holding answer 23 November 2009]: Outturn expenditure, in cash terms, on bereavement Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales benefits for 2008-09 was £675 million. how many (a) scientific advisers and (b) civil servants The available information on the number of recipients in scientific posts there are in his Department. [302022] is in the following table. Mr. Hain: None. Number of people in receipt of bereavement benefits as at each quarter in 2008-09 Number NORTHERN IRELAND May 2008 59,850 August 2008 59,400 Christmas November 2008 59,190 February 2009 60,720 Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Note: Northern Ireland how many Christmas parties his Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Department plans to host in 2009; what has been Source: budgeted for each such reception; what estimate he has DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal made of the proportion of (a) lamb, (b) beef, (c) Study chicken, (d) pork, (e) turkey, (f) other meats, (g) There is no information available about the percentage vegetables, (h) fruit and (i) alcohol to be served at of cases where the benefit was subsequently reduced. each such function which is produced in the UK; and if he will make a statement. [300868] Housing Benefit Mr. Woodward: The does not plan to host any Christmas parties in 2009. Chloe Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people were in receipt of Departmental Food housing benefit in Norwich North constituency on the latest date for which information is available. [301696] Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what estimate he has made of the Helen Goodman: The information is not available. proportion of (a) lamb, (b) beef, (c) chicken, (d) pork, (e) turkey, (f) other meats, (g) vegetables and Winter Fuel Allowance (h) fruit procured by his Department that was produced in the UK in the latest period for which figures are Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for available; and if he will make a statement. [300183] Work and Pensions if she will estimate the tax cost of Mr. Woodward: The Northern Ireland Office does doubling the winter fuel allowance for people who have not record procurement of meat, vegetables and fruit by retired. [301506] country of origin and the information would be available only at disproportionate cost. Where possible, the : The current per household amounts Department always aims to use local Northern Ireland for the winter fuel payment are £250 for those aged produce. 60-79 and £400 for those aged over 80 (including the additional payment of £50 and £100 respectively). The Police: Devolution additional public expenditure consequences of making winter fuel payments at double these rates, to only those Mr. McGrady: To ask the Secretary of State for who have reached state pension age, would be around Northern Ireland what his most recent estimate is of £2 billion for 2009-10. the cost under each budget heading of implementing his Department’s proposals for devolution of policing and justice powers in Northern Ireland. [300911] Paul Goggins: The Northern Ireland Office established FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE a Devolution Programme team in April 2007 which up to the end of October 2009 has cost £633,961. Other Canada: Embassies staff across the Department have also been involved in implementing proposals for the devolution of policing Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State and justice but quantifying these costs could not be for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many done within the disproportionate cost limit. Canadian citizens have sought the protection or assistance of British embassies and high commissions in the last 12 months for which figures are available; WORK AND PENSIONS and if he will make a statement. [301879] Bereavement Benefits Mr. : We hold figures for the number of Commonwealth nationals who have sought the protection Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for or assistance of British missions overseas, but make no Work and Pensions how many people were in receipt of further breakdown by nationality. In 2007-08 (the latest bereavement benefit in 2008-09; what the total amount year for which figures are available) our overseas Posts paid was; and in what percentage of cases the benefit provided 423 services, including advice and self help, to was subsequently reduced. [300619] Commonwealth nationals. 159W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 160W

Christmas Food Procurement Brassicas - for example brussel sprouts, cabbage and cauliflower - 65 per cent. Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Legumes - for example beans (broad), beans (runner and dwarf), peas (green for market), peas (green for processing), Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many peas (harvested dry) - 52 per cent. Christmas parties his Department plans to host in 2009; what has been budgeted for each such reception; Protected vegetables - for example tomatoes (round, vine, plum and cherry), tomatoes (cold), cucumbers, lettuce, celery, sweet what estimate he has made of the proportion of (a) peppers - 25 per cent. lamb, (b) beef, (c) chicken, (d) pork, (e) turkey, (f) Other vegetables - for example asparagus, celery, leeks, lettuce, other meats, (g) vegetables, (h) fruit and (i) alcohol to watercress - 55 per cent. be served at each such function which is produced in Fruit: the UK; and if he will make a statement. [300874] Orchard fruit - for example dessert apples, culinary apples, : The Foreign and Commonwealth Office pears, plums - 50 per cent. does not hold this information centrally, and to obtain Soft fruit - for example strawberries, raspberries, blackberries, it would incur disproportionate cost. blackcurrants - 31 per cent.

Colombia: EU External Trade Departmental Legal Costs Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr. Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what expenditure his and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it his policy Department and its agencies have incurred on external to oppose a free trade agreement between the EU and legal advice and representation in each year since 1997; Colombia unless human rights in Colombia are judged and for what purposes such services were commissioned. to meet international standards. [301877] [300580] Chris Bryant: Yes, the UK is leading efforts within the Chris Bryant: The amount spent by the Foreign and EU to ensure that any agreement with Colombia is Commonwealth Office (FCO) on external legal advice linked to a human rights clause. This clause will enable and representation from counsel and solicitors in private us to suspend the agreement if it is breached, and will practice by way of disbursements paid via the Treasury act as a catalyst for frank dialogue with Colombia on Solicitor (which form the bulk of the FCO’s external the issue. legal costs) in each year since 1998 is as follows:

Departmental Food Procurement (£) 1998-99 54,667.70 Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for 1999-2000 50,963.21 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he 2000-01 117,117.11 has made of the proportion of (a) lamb, (b) beef, (c) 2001-02 124,641.66 chicken, (d) pork, (e) turkey, (f) other meats, (g) 2002-03 697,878.22 vegetables and (h) fruit procured by his Department 2003-04 204,366.75 that was produced in the UK in the latest period for 2004-05 331,731.68 which figures are available; and if he will make a 2005-06 328,378.29 statement. [300180] 2006-07 387,591.16 2007-08 294,497.06 Mr. Ivan Lewis: The latest period for which figures 2008-09 362,177.08 are available is April 2008 to March 2009. Details have been provided by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office The figure for such spending for the financial year (FCO) for publication by the Department for the 1997-98 is no longer held by the FCO. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs at: The FCO does not hold information on aggregate http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/policy/sustain/procurement/ amounts of external fees paid other than via the Treasury awareness.htm Solicitor. The proportions of foods procured by the FCO that These professional services are commissioned for the were produced in the UK are as follows: purposes of legal representation in court proceedings Meats: and obtaining legal advice. lamb and mutton - 50 per cent. Departmental Pay beef and veal - 80 per cent. chicken - poultry meat - 75 per cent. John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign pork - 45 per cent. and Commonwealth Affairs what (a) bonuses and (b) turkey - included in poultry meat incentives have been paid to (i) consultants and other meats - 0 per cent. (ii) contractors engaged by his Department in each of the last three years. [300653] Vegetables: Ware potatoes - whole, unprepared - 99 per cent. Chris Bryant: The information is as follows. Processed potatoes - for prepared both whole and cut - 100 per (a) Neither the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, cent. its Executive agencies (FCO Services and Wilton Park) Roots and Onions - for example carrots, parsnips, onions, or its non-departmental public bodies make bonus payments turnips and swedes - 82 per cent. to consultants or individual contractors. 161W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 162W

(b) Incentive regimes are rarely used for contracts FY Tonnes with consultants and individual contractors. If incentives are included in a contract they are negotiated on a case 2007-08 137 by case basis taking care to ensure value for money. No 2008-09 148 central record is maintained of such contractual provisions. In 2008-09 the total waste arisings of the FCO on its Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for UK estate were 960 tonnes of which 59 per cent. was Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what bonus recycled. This compares to a figure of 48 per cent. for schemes for its staff his Department operates; and what 2007-08. the purpose is of those schemes. [301559] Diplomatic Relations: Parliament Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) operates two types of bonus scheme. Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment The main scheme is purely performance related, based he has made of the implications for the UK of the on the previous year’s appraisal. The purpose of the report on promoting parliamentary diplomacy produced scheme is to encourage excellent individual performance by the Political Affairs Committee of the Council of and achievement during the year. Europe, AS/POL (2009) 18 rev; and if he will make a We also operate an in year bonus scheme for staff statement. [301244] below the senior civil service only. The scheme is designed to give managers scope to Chris Bryant: The report on “Promoting Parliamentary recognise specific examples of good performance, which Diplomacy” is still in draft and has not yet been approved contribute towards the achievement of the FCO, directorate by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe general, directorate or mission’s objectives. or communicated to the Committee of Ministers. We will contribute to the Committee of Ministers’ response Departmental Property: Theft in due course, if the Parliamentary Assembly requests such a response. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for : Politics and Government Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many of his Department’s officials have (a) been reprimanded, (b) had their contract of employment terminated and (c) Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign been prosecuted for theft of departmental property in and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he each of the last three years; and what items were stolen has had with the government of Gibraltar on (a) the application of the European Convention on Human in each case. [300963] Rights to Gibraltar and (b) applications for citizenship Mr. Ivan Lewis: Central records show that no members by Moroccans resident and working in Gibraltar. of staff have been reprimanded, had their contract of [301422] employment terminated or been prosecuted for theft of departmental property in each of the last three years. Mr. Ivan Lewis: While the Government continually monitor Gibraltar’s compliance with the European Departmental Rail Travel Convention on Human Rights, there have been no recent discussions on the specific application of the convention. Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on what date he The issue of citizenship by Moroccan residents in last travelled by train in the course of his official duties. Gibraltar has been recently discussed by officials of the [301201] Governor’s Office and the Government of Gibraltar. Processes which lead to the acquisition of British Citizenship Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign in Gibraltar come under the responsibility of the Governor’s Secretary last travelled by train to and from Brussels for Office on behalf of the Government. The Government the European Council on 29 and 30 October 2009. of Gibraltar are responsible for regulation covering immigration to Gibraltar. Departmental Recycling Government Hospitality

Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what weight of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to which functions paper his Department recycled in each of the last five the Government Hospitality Fund provided services in years. [300780] 2008-09; and which Department hosted each such event. [300432] Chris Bryant: The total weight of paper recycled on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) UK Chris Bryant: In the financial year 2008-09 Government estate during the last five financial years was: Hospitality managed 213 functions hosted by Ministers or permanent secretaries for the following Government FY Tonnes Departments: 2004-05 153.88 The Office of the Prime Minister; the Foreign and Commonwealth 2005-06 76 Office; the Ministry of Defence; the Department for Business, 2006-07 130.4 Innovation and Skills; the Ministry of Justice; the Department for International Development; the Home Office; the Department 163W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 164W for Children Families and Schools; the Department for the Energy protections under the Iraqi constitution and applicable and Climate Change; the Department of Health; HM Treasury; international obligations to which Iraq is a signatory. the Cabinet Office, and the Office of the Attorney-General. We do not consider that they have ‘protected persons’ status. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much was We do not feel a ministerial statement is necessary at this time. spent by Government Hospitality in 2008-09. [300705] Middle East: Armed Conflict Chris Bryant: In the financial year 2008-09 Government Hospitality in Protocol Directorate of the Foreign and Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Office recorded the following expenditure Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy at on functions, equipment, laundry, porterage, flowers, the UN General Assembly on the Goldstone report on wines, spirits and soft drinks was £488,044. the UN Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict is; Iraq: Health what his voting intention on the report in the UN Security Council is; and if he will make a statement. [300327] Harry Cohen: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has Mr. Ivan Lewis: We made clear that the Goldstone received of higher than usual (a) birth and (b) other report raised very serious issues. We worked hard before health defects in the population of Fallujah, Iraq. the vote at the UN General Assembly in New York on [300528] 5 November to reach a consensus on calling for independent investigations. In the end we had to abstain, with France Mr. Ivan Lewis: Officials in the Department for and 42 others, because voting for would have meant International Development (DFID) have received reports endorsing the report and ignoring its flaws. But the from the Child Victims of the Iraq War Foundation of issues are serious and the parties should address them. high rates of foetal abnormalities and infant deaths in Fallujah. At present, the situation remains unclear due Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign to discrepancies in the data available from a range of and Commonwealth Affairs for what reason the sources on this topic. DFID has requested further United Kingdom abstained from the vote in the UN information on this issue from various international General Assembly on a resolution endorsing the medical organisations operating in Fallujah. findings of the report of the UN Fact-finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict; who instructed the UK Iraq: Iran representative to abstain; who was consulted on the decision; and if he will make a statement. [300883] Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK worked hard before the vote he has made of conditions in Camp Ashraf, Iraq, with at the UN in New York, on 5 November, to reach a particular reference to (a) access for (i) doctors and (ii) consensus on calling for independent investigation. In fuel tankers and (b) the consequences of Iraqi action the end we had to abstain, with France and 42 others, against the camp’s residents in July 2009; and if he will because voting for would have meant endorsing the make a statement. [300259] report and ignoring its flaws. But the issues are serious and the parties should address them. The UK representative Mr. Ivan Lewis: We understand that since the events voted in accordance with Ministers’ instructions. at Camp Ashraf on 28 July, the situation is generally calm and the camp residents have continued access to National Independent Electoral Commission food, water, medical and essential supplies. Officials from our embassy in Baghdad have met with the Iraqi Mr. Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for government Ashraf Committee and the UN to discuss Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his most the situation. During these meetings they confirmed recent assessment is of (a) the effectiveness of the that necessary supplies were able to enter the camp National Independent Electoral Commission and (b) unimpeded. the adequacy of its operational resources. [300227] Our ambassador in Iraq wrote to the Iraqi Human Rights Minister to ask for a review of the events that Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Independent Election Commission took place at the camp on 28 July. The Iraqi government (IEC) was able to hold the first Afghan-led elections for are undertaking a review and we have asked to be kept over 30 years. In the face of insecurity and threats to its informed of progress. 160,000 staff across Afghanistan, it enabled millions of Afghans to come out and make their voice heard in Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign choosing the future leadership of their country. While and Commonwealth Affairs what his Department’s there were minor complaints about the quality of some assessment is of the status in international law of the of the materials it used, such as the hole punches to residents of Camp Ashraf, Iraq; and if he will make a mark the voter cards, the operation overall was well statement. [300305] resourced. The UK contributed £16.5 million to the UN basket fund for elections, which included recourses Mr. Ivan Lewis: Camp Ashraf is in a sovereign and and capacity building for the IEC. democratic Iraq and the camp residents subject to its Clearly there are lessons to be learned for future laws. The UK is of the view that the residents of Camp elections. But the processes in place provided for an Ashraf, as with all people in Iraq, enjoy rights and independent audit of the results that came through the 165W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 166W

IEC. The audit process, conducted by the Electoral Our work also aims to support British citizens in the Complaints Commission, in co-operation with the IEC UAE and to foster effective trade and economic following election day on 20 August, was robust and co-operation that will further enhance links between transparent: flaws in the process were reported, investigated British and Emirati businesses to operate successfully. and decided on, and fraudulent ballots removed. Following the conclusion of this process, we are confident that the Whistleblowing result of the 2009 presidential elections reflects the will of the Afghan people. Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many Somalia: Human Trafficking allegations of victimisation for whistleblowing have been made to his Department by its staff since 6 June 2006. [301494] Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Foreign and Commonwealth he has received on levels of human trafficking in Office have had a very small number of allegations of Somalia; and what discussions he has had with his victimisation for whistleblowing since 6 June 2006. No Somali counterpart on the matter. [301266] further details can be provided because of the need to protect the identity of those involved. Mr. Ivan Lewis: We have not received any reports on the levels of human trafficking in Somalia. The extremely fragile security situation in Somalia means that the UK does not have any presence on the ground with which to CABINET OFFICE monitor issues such as human trafficking. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has not held discussions Population: Statistics with his Somali counterpart on the matter. The February 2009 report of the UN Independent Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Expert on Human Rights in Somalia identified human Office what recent assessment the UK Statistics trafficking, along with many other human rights issues Authority has made of the accuracy of the population and criminal acts, as an important challenge to be projections at the 20-year range which it and its addressed. The report recommends that the Transitional predecessors made in the last 50 years. [301651] Federal Government make human rights the foundation of its transitional period and that the UN address the Ms Butler: The information requested falls within the root causes of smuggling and trafficking of people responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have across the Gulf of Aden. The UK works closely with asked the Authority to reply to the hon. Member. A the UN Political Office for Somalia to progress the copy of their response will be placed in the Library. UN-led Djibouti peace agreement.

Somalia: Piracy ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Cancer: Children Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to the answer of 2 November 2009, Official Report, column Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for 666W, on Somalia: piracy, if he will place in the Energy and Climate Change when he expects the Committee Library a copy of the final report of the regional needs on the Medical Aspects of Radiation to publish its assessment mission to the Horn of Africa in September review of the incidence of childhood cancers. [301060] 2009. [301968] Mr. Kidney: I understand that the Committee on : I have placed a copy of the final Medical Aspects of Radiation in the Environment report of the regional needs assessment mission to the (COMARE) hope that the outcome of their further Horn of Africa in the Library of the House. review of the incidence of childhood cancer around nuclear power stations will be available in the spring of 2010. We refer to the review in our consultation on my United Arab Emirates right hon. Friend the Secretary of State’s proposed decisions on the regulatory justification of new nuclear Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign power station designs, copies of which have been placed and Commonwealth Affairs what aims and objectives in the Library of the House and are available at: he has set for UK foreign policy in respect of the http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/ United Arab Emirates. [301972] reg_just_cons/reg_just_cons.aspx

David Miliband: The UK aims to strengthen relations Electricity: Prices with the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in all fields to our mutual benefit. Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy We work closely with the UAE to promote support and Climate Change (1) what the average cost has been for enhanced regional and global security, we aim to of a unit of electricity supplied to domestic dwellings in improve cultural, sporting and scientific co-operation each year since 1997; [300585] including supporting the creation and promotion of (2) how many units of electricity have been consumed large scale renewable energy programmes by the UAE. in domestic dwellings in each year since 1997. [300586] 167W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 168W

Mr. Kidney: The information is as follows: CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT

Domestic Average price per Departmental Taxis consumption (TWh) unit (pence/kWh) 1997 104.5 8.6 Ian Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 1998 109.4 8.1 Media and Sport what contracts his Department has 1999 110.3 8.0 with private hire taxi companies; and what expenditure 2000 111.8 7.8 his Department has incurred against each such contract 2001 115.3 7.6 in each of the last three years. [300840] 2002 114.5 7.5 2003 115.8 7.6 Mr. Simon: Private hire taxi services are provided by 2004 115.5 7.8 Addison Lee. During the last three years the following 2005 116.8 8.6 amounts were spent: 2006 116.4 10.2 £ 2007 115.1 11.6 2008 117.8 12.3 2006-07 16,095 2009 173.6 13.9 2007-08 17,055 1 January-August 2009 2008-09 10,823

Price information is the average unit price for UK Departmental Theft customers consuming 3,300 kWh per year paying on standard credit terms. Figures for 2009 are provisional. Consumption data for 2009 are given up to the latest Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for available month (August). Culture, Media and Sport how many of his Department’s officials have (a) been reprimanded, (b) had their contract of employment terminated and (c) been prosecuted for theft of departmental property in each of the last three years; and what items were stolen in Natural Gas: Prices each case. [300964]

Mr. Simon: At no time in the last three years has a DCMS employee been reprimanded or prosecuted due Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy to theft of departmental property. For the years 2006-07 and Climate Change (1) what the average cost has been and 2008-09 no DCMS employee has had their contract of a unit of gas supplied to domestic dwellings in each of employment terminated due to theft of departmental year since 1997; [300587] property. In the year 2007-08, one employee had their (2) what estimate he has made of the number of employment contract terminated due to the misuse of a units of gas consumed in domestic dwellings in the Government procurement card on unauthorised purchases. United Kingdom in each year since 1997. [300782] This matter is currently the subject of legal proceedings before the High Court, and it would not be appropriate to offer further details at this stage. Mr. Kidney: The information is as follows: Gambling Commission Domestic Average price per consumption (TWh) unit (pence/kWh) Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport by what mechanism the 1997 345.5 1.8 performance of the Gambling Commission against its 1998 355.9 1.8 objectives is assessed; and how often the Commission’s 1999 358.1 1.7 performance is assessed. [301346] 2000 369.9 1.6 2001 379.4 1.6 Mr. Sutcliffe: The Gambling Commission’s performance 2002 376.4 1.7 is primarily assessed through a funding agreement with 2003 386.5 1.8 the Department which includes their agreed strategic 2004 396.4 1.9 objectives, together with funding and performance 2005 384.0 2.1 indicators/targets. The Department holds a formal 2006 365.9 2.6 sponsorship meeting with the Commission quarterly to 2007 352.9 3.1 review performance against both the indicators set out 2008 363.3 3.2 in the funding agreement and the Commission’s corporate 2009 1194.2 4.0 plan. 1 January-June 2009 In addition, I recently held my annual meeting with the chairman and chief executive as required by the Price information is the average unit price for GB funding agreement. The Commission has also been customers consuming 18,000 kWh per year paying on subject to three independent reviews, all of which considered standard credit terms. Figures for 2009 are provisional. them to be fit for purpose (National Audit Office, Office Consumption data for 2009 are given up to the latest of Government Commerce and Hampton Implementation available month (June). Review). 169W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 170W

Gambling Commission: Allowances people are doing more sport. The PE and Sport Strategy for Young People sets out how the £780 million of Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for DCMS and DCSF investment is targeted at getting Culture, Media and Sport how much officials of the more children to do five hours of sport per week. The Gambling Commission claimed for reimbursement of huge range of programmes under these strategies will travel expenses in the last 12 months. [301344] help to ensure that the sporting system in 2012 and beyond is in the best shape possible. Mr. Sutcliffe: The Gambling Commission have advised In addition, regional partners are capitalising on that their officials claimed £217,655.29 for reimbursement national programmes of delivery like Change 4 Life, of travel expenses in the 12 months to 31 October 2009. Living Well and Free Swimming to encourage innovation This figure includes the reimbursement for travel undertaken through partnerships at all levels to create a real and by 134 employees including those who perform routine lasting legacy from the 2012 games for the West Midlands. compliance and enforcement duties. In addition, 10 local area agreements have already been Gambling Commission: Standards signed for national indicator 8—local agreement to increase the number of adults participating in sport and active recreation. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what representations he has received Within the region there are six sub-regional 2012 from the gambling industry on the effectiveness of the partnerships and each has identified a series of programmes Gambling Commission. [301345] and projects that will help to increase levels of participation in sport and physical activity. Mr. Sutcliffe: I regularly receive representations, both verbal and written, from trade associations and individual businesses within the gambling industry about a range Operational Efficiency Programme of issues relating to gambling regulation, including the role and effectiveness of the Gambling Commission. Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Leisure: Local Government Finance Media and Sport what efficiency savings projects (a) his Department and (b) its agency put in place under Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, the Operational Efficiency Programme; on what date Media and Sport how many local authorities have each such project was initiated; how much each such applied to his Department for funding for local leisure project was expected to contribute to departmental facilities in each of the last five years. [300768] savings; how much had been saved through each such project on the latest date for which figures are available; Mr. Sutcliffe: The only direct DCMS funding stream, and if he will make a statement. [300927] to help local authorities fund leisure facilities, over the stated time period has been PFI Credits. Mr. Simon: The Department for Culture, Media and In the last five years, we have held three bidding Sport, the Royal Parks Agency and its non-departmental rounds for PFI Credits under which local authorities public bodies currently report on the value for money could apply for funding in the form of PFI Credits. programme announced in the 2007 comprehensive spending A table showing the number of applications we received, review. This will deliver savings of £168 million over the for each of the bidding rounds, for local leisure facilities three years to 2010-11, and as reported in the Departments is as follows. 2008-09 annual report and accounts we are on target to achieve this. We have not been required to report separately Number of applications on operational efficiency savings; therefore it would incur disproportionate costs to separate reporting to 2003 12 date. 2005 17 Looking beyond the current spending review period 2007 0 the Department is working closely with its NDPBs to Olympic Games 2012: West Midlands scope opportunities for operational efficiency savings by 2013-14. This is being taken forward through a variety of work strands: Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what assessment he has made of the Benchmarking of non-departmental public bodies with over legacy from the London 2012 Olympics on participation 250 staff. This will be published in the next few weeks. This in sport in the West Midlands (a) in general and (b) by work was initiated in July 2009. children under 14 years old. [301589] The DCMS procurement council is actively promoting collaboration and value for money solutions across the Department Mr. Sutcliffe: Since the publication of the Government’s and its arm’s length bodies. This builds on the work initiated in February 2009 as part of the Department’s response to the Legacy Action Plan in June 2008, there has been significant Procurement Capability Review. progress on delivering our aims for a lasting community sport legacy from the 2012 Olympics and Paralympics The Property Asset Management Board is developing a joint across the UK. estates strategy. This work was initiated in September 2009. We are investing £480 million, through Sport England’s ICT mapping will be supported by a new CIO Council. This Whole Sport Plan process, in the national governing work was initiated in October 2009. bodies (NGBs) of sport during the run up to the games, These scoping studies will lead to detailed plans and in order to drive up participation so 1 million more savings in the new year. 171W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 172W

Public Libraries: Wirral COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Ben Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for Register of Surplus Public Sector Land Culture, Media and Sport when he plans to publish the Charteris review on Wirral libraries; and if he will Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [301215] Communities and Local Government (1) how many sites on the register of surplus public sector land are : We are currently considering evidence classed as suitable for new homes to be built on; and relating to the Wirral Inquiry in accordance with the what estimate has been made of the number of new Public Libraries (Inquiries Procedure) Rules 1992. We homes which could be built on such sites; [300445] will announce a decision shortly, and we will publish the (2) how many sites on the register of surplus public report undertaken by Sue Charteris at the same time as sector land have been on the register for longer than the decision. (a) six months and (b) 12 months. [300598]

Tourism Mr. Ian Austin: The Homes and Communities Agency estimate that 143 sites on the register of surplus public Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for sector land may be suitable for housing development. Culture, Media and Sport which 10 tourist attractions These sites have the potential to build more than 18,000 in England (a) had the most visitors and (b) raised the homes. This estimate is included in the general figure most revenue in each of the last two years. [301590] given for housing on surplus public sector land provided by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby South Margaret Hodge: VisitEngland carries out periodical () on 19 May 2009, Official Report, surveys of the free and paid entry major tourist attractions columns 1346-47W.Individual Departments and agencies in England. Based on the self-completion questionnaires are responsible for deciding when to place or remove returned, the most visited sites in 2007 and 2008 are site details on the register depending on their operational listed in the table. VisitEngland does not record revenue need. figures. Currently there are 692 sites on the register. Of those 692 sites (a) 573 sites have been on the register for Name Visitors longer than six months and (b) 540 for longer than 2007 12 months. Xscape Milton Keynes 6,863,733 Blackpool Pleasure Beach 5,500,000 Affordable Housing British Museum 5,400,062 Tate Modern 4,915,376 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for River Lee Country Park 4,515,258 Communities and Local Government how many National Gallery 4,159,485 affordable homes were built in rural areas in each year Xscape Castleford 3,742,081 since 1997. [300999] Natural History Museum 3,652,003 Victoria and Albert Museum 2,809,900 Mr. Ian Austin: The following table shows the number Science Museum 2,200,000 of new affordable homes (social rent, intermediate rent and low cost home ownership) built in rural areas in England each year since 1997-98. 2008 New build affordable homes built in rural areas British Museum 5,930,000 Number Tate Modern 4,862,581 National Gallery 4,207,677 1997-98 10,050 Natural History Museum 3,260,731 1998-99 8,910 Science Museum 2,705,677 1999-2000 7,800 2,500,000 2000-01 7,200 Victoria and Albert Museum 2,420,815 2001-02 7,520 Grand Pier, Weston-super-mare 2,000,000 2002-03 7,340 National Portrait Gallery 1,843,266 2003-04 8,310 Tate Britain 1,618,309 2004-05 9,170 2005-06 11,180 Whistleblowing 2006-07 11,930 2007-08 14,550 Source: Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Homes and Communities Agency Investment Management System Culture, Media and Sport how many allegations of (IMS), and local authority returns to CLG. victimisation for whistleblowing have been made to his Note: Department by its staff since 6 June 2006. [301500] Figures have been rounded to nearest 10 units. Not all affordable housing is provided by new build Mr. Simon: There have been no allegations made by completions, as some supply can come from acquisitions. any DCMS employee against another DCMS employee For example, in 2007-08, a total of 16,760 additional of victimisation due to whistleblowing since 6 June affordable homes were provided in rural areas in England 2006. (new build and acquisitions). 173W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 174W

Total affordable housing supply statistics for 2008-09 based on the number of EPCs lodged on the EPC will be released by CLG in December 2009. register. The following table shows: These figures reflect the delivery of affordable housing The number of EPCs lodged on the EPC Register in the 178 local authorities defined as rural by the between 1 August 2007 and 21 September 2008. These DEFRA Rural Definition (2004). totals include some 87,000 EPCs produced by local authorities and housing associations for rented homes Community Development as part of the social housing pilot. The number of EPCs produced for marketed sales Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for since 22 September 2008. These totals are listed on a Communities and Local Government what steps his weekly basis and exclude EPCs for new homes using Department and its predecessors have taken to develop SAP as it is not possible to distinguish between EPCs community life in each of the last 12 years. [300662] produced in respect of new homes being built for rent and those being built for sale. Barbara Follett: A broad range of policies and programmes undertaken by Communities and Local Number Government and its predecessor Departments aim directly or indirectly to develop community life. Information on August 2007 24,915 the range of this activity could be provided only at September 2007 63,542 disproportionate cost. October 2007 85,192 November 2007 50,080 Departmental ICT December 2007 28,834 January 2008 74,161 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for February 2008 101,176 Communities and Local Government how many (a) March 2008 96,187 mobile telephones, (b) personal digital assistants and April 2008 113,801 (c) laptop computers were purchased by the (i) Tenant May 2008 93,906 Services Authority and (ii) Homes and Communities June 2008 88,316 Agency in the last 12 months. [300452] July 2008 92,102 August 2008 96,665 : The Tenant Services Authority has existed 1 September 2008 - 21 September 2008 74,995 since 1 December 2008. Since its commencement, the 22 September 2008 - 28 September 2008 23,513 authority has purchased: 29September2008-2November2008 141,914 No mobile telephones; 3 November 2008 -30 November 2008 51,943 72 Blackberrys; and 1 December 2008 - 4 January 2009 36,046 41 laptops. 5January2009-1February2009 48,217 The Homes and Communities Agency has existed 2 February 2009 - 1 March 2009 57,340 since 1 December 2008. Since its commencement, the 2 March 2009 - 29 March 2009 67,710 agency has purchased: 30 March 2009 - 3 May 2009 90,130 54 mobile telephones; 4 May 2009 - 31 May 2009 68,668 116 Blackberrys; and 1June2009-5July2009 92,118 124 laptops. 6 July 2009 - 2 August 2009 72,631 3 August 2009 - 30 August 2009 72,799 Departmental Recruitment 31August2009-4October2009 92,214 5October2009-1November2009 66,106 Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what proportion Homelessness: South East of jobs advertised by his Department in the last 12 months were online only applications; and what provision his Department makes for those wishing to apply for jobs Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for in his Department who do not have access to the Communities and Local Government how many homeless internet. [301546] people there were in (a) Lewes constituency, (b) Sussex and (c) the South East in each year since 1997. [301278] Barbara Follett: Communities and Local Government did not advertise any jobs in the last 12 months as Mr. Ian Austin: Information about English local housing online only applications. authorities’ actions under the homelessness legislation (Part 7 of the Housing Act 1996) is collected at local Home Information Packs authority level, and published by the Department in the quarterly Statistical Release on Statutory Homelessness, Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for available both in the Library and via the CLG website: Communities and Local Government what estimate he http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ has made of the number of home information packs statistics/homelessnessq22009 produced in each month since August 2007. [300706] Data collected includes the number of households accepted by local housing authorities as eligible for John Healey: The Department does not have a record assistance, unintentionally homeless and in priority need, of the number of HPs produced. As HIPs must include and therefore owed a main homelessness duty (to secure an energy performance certificate (EPC), estimates are that suitable accommodation is available). If a settled 175W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 176W home is not immediately available, the authority must John Healey: Negative valued assets are those that secure temporary accommodation until a settled home have future liabilities attached to them. The Homes and becomes available, and this information is also collected. Communities Agency (HCA) holds nine property interests The regional figures for the number of applicants with negative value. accepted as owed a main duty and the number of The future liabilities associated with these assets are households in temporary accommodation, for each financial fully provided for in Note 31 “Provisions for liabilities year since 1998-99 can be found in Tables 3 and 7 of the and charges”on page 86 of the HCA financial statements, latest Statistical Release. The equivalent 1997-98 figures as laid in the House. can be found in earlier additions of the Release, accessible from this link: http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/homelessnessstatistics/ Communities and Local Government what salary has publicationshomelessness/ been set for each Homes and Communities Agency regional director for 2009-10. [300900] Data is not collected at constituency level. Lewes constituency covers most of Lewes local authority and part of Wealden. Data is also not reported at County John Healey: As at the end of October 2009 the level. Sussex County is divided into East and West. The salary for each Homes and Communities Agency regional following local authorities form part of East Sussex: director was set at: Brighton and Hove, Eastbourne, Hastings, Lewes, Rother and Wealden. West Sussex comprises of the following £ local authorities: Adur, Arun, Chichester, Crawley, Horsham, Mid-Sussex, and Worthing. Regional Director London 157,325 Regional Director East of England 142,100 For local authority level acceptance and temporary Regional Director West Midlands 131,848 accommodation figures between 1997-98 and 2008-09 (including those listed above), I refer the hon. Member Regional Director South East 131,816 to the answer I gave on 23 June 2009, Official Report, Regional Director South West 131,950 column 843W, to the hon. Member for Castle Point Regional Director North East 129,920 (Bob Spink). Regional Director East Midlands 126,706 Regional Director Yorkshire and 121,800 Information is also collected and reported on the Humber number of people who sleep rough—that is, those who Regional Director North West 121,800 are literally roofless on a single night. Local authority data and count guidance can be found here: The salary award was backdated to 1 July 2009. http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/homelessness/ roughsleeping/ Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Homes and Communities Agency Communities and Local Government how much the Homes and Communities Agency and its predecessor received in interest payments in each of the last three Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for years. [300438] Communities and Local Government what the reasons were for the requirement for an advance from the National Loans Fund to the Homes and Communities John Healey: This information for the years ending Agency referred to on page 56 of the Agency’s annual 31 March 2009 and 31 March 2008 can be found in the report and financial statement 2008-09. [300605] Homes and Communities Agency’s (HCA) Annual Report and Financial Statements 2008-09. For the year ending John Healey: The advance from the National Loans 31 March 2007, the information can be found in the Fund (NLF) was made to the Housing Corporation, published annual report and accounts for English one of the predecessor bodies for the Homers and Partnerships and the Housing Corporation. Communities Agency (HCA), in 2007-8. This was re-paid by the Housing Corporation before the launch of the HCA on 1 December 2008 (though this appears in the Housing: Planning HCA’s financial statements for 2008-09 as these were prepared on a merger accounting basis to give results for the full financial year in 2008-09) and the amount John Howell: To ask the Secretary of State for owed was £ nil as at 31 March 2009. Communities and Local Government with reference to the written ministerial statement of 30 June 2008, The purpose of the NLF loan to the Housing Official Report, columns 43-44WS, on how many Corporation had been to continue to fund some residual occasions in each region the Secretary of State has historical loans made by the Housing Corporation dating exercised powers to recover a planning appeal under from the 1990s made to assist with right to buy purchases. section 79 of and paragraph 3 of Schedule 6 to the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 where the main Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for reason for recovery was because the proposal was for a Communities and Local Government how many residential development of over 150 units which would property interests with negative value the Homes and have a significant impact on the Government’s Communities Agency holds; and if he will make a planning objective on housing supply balance and statement. [300611] communities set out in the Statement. [301664] 177W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 178W

John Healey: Planning Inspectors determine the vast £ majority of planning appeals, which numbered around 20,000 in 2008-09. The following table sets out the 2007-08 4,105,192 number of occasions in each region where appeals have 2006-07 3,909,949 been recovered since 30 June 2008 and the main reason for recovery was because the proposal was for a residential Legal advice was provided on a regular and ongoing development of over 150 units which would have a basis. The majority will be protected by legal professional significant impact on the Government’s objective to privilege or commercial confidentiality or both. Providing secure a better balance between housing demand and detailed information about advice obtained would be at supply and create high quality, sustainable, mixed and disproportionate cost. inclusive communities. The Fire Service College has supplied the following:

Number £

East Midlands 5 2001-02 57,470.81 East of England 6 2002-03 73,613.72 London 4 2003-04 38,643.55 North East 0 2004-05 79,410.99 North West 2 2005-06 50,447.51 South East 10 2006-07 27,519.36 South West 6 2007-08 26,678.10 West Midlands 2 2008-09 51,907.48 Yorkshire and Humber 0 2009 to date (31 October 2009) 71,250.26 Total 35 Costs prior to FY 2001-02 and the purpose of legal representation and advice sought cannot be provided Land Use due to disproportionate cost. The Planning Inspectorate has provided the following Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for figures. They are unable to provide the reason for the Communities and Local Government how much surplus expenditure as it is confidential. public sector land there was in each (a) region and (b) local authority area in each of the last eight quarters. £ [300597] 2004-05 640,906 2005-06 887,811 Mr. Ian Austin: The register of surplus public sector 2006-07 1,007,750 land identifies land held by central Government and its 2007-08 1,108,333 agencies that is surplus to operational requirements. 2008-09 1,417,017 The register is published quarterly by the Homes and 2009-10 967,922 Communities Agency, and shows the county and local authority area where the surplus land is located. The Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre uses the in-house reports of the last eight quarters, including the most legal team at CLG for its routine legal requirements. No up-to-date version that was published in September external legal representatives used since beginning FY 2009, are available on the Homes and Communities 2007-08. Information for earlier years could be supplied Agency website at: only at disproportionate cost. http://www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/public/documents/ SPSL-Register-September-2009.pdf Local Government: Pensions

Legal Opinion Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many (a) current, (b) retired and (c) deferred members of Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the local government pension scheme in each scheme Communities and Local Government what the (a) cost administering authority (i) were members prior to and (b) purpose was of each piece of legal representation 1 April 2008 and (ii) have joined the scheme since and advice obtained by (i) his Department and (ii) its 1 April 2008. [300687] agencies in each year since May 1997. [300331] Barbara Follett: Details of the number of (a) current Barbara Follett: Communities has spent the following members, (b) retired members including flexible retirees amounts on legal services in the last three fiscal years. or the dependants of former members, and (c) deferred Figures for earlier years could be supplied only at members in the Local Government Pension Scheme in disproportionate cost. each scheme administering authority in England as at 31 March 2008 and 31 March 2009, and the net change £ in the numbers, are given in the following table. It is not 2008-09 5,292,381 possible to identify those that have joined the scheme since 1 April 2008 as these data are not collected. 179W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 180W

Data as at 31 March 2008 Data as at 31 March 2009 Difference Number Number Number Pensioners of former Pensioners of former Pensioners of former (retired scheme (retired scheme (retired scheme employees members employees members employees members Number of (inc flexible entitled to Number of (inc flexible entitled to Number of (inc flexible entitled to contributing retirees)or deferred contributing retirees)or deferred contributing retirees)or deferred members dependants) benefits members dependants) benefits members dependants) benefits

Barking and 5,333 4,216 3,298 5,414 4,340 3,524 81 124 226 Dagenham Barnet 6,933 5,052 5,443 7,093 6,041 5,812 160 989 369 Bath and North 34,681 19,509 20,473 35,264 20,395 22,579 583 886 2,106 East Somerset Bedfordshire 17,025 10,432 12,122 17,288 10,772 15,825 263 340 3,703 Bexley 4,594 3,569 3,067 4,744 3,727 3,216 150 158 149 Brent 5,849 5,024 5,159 6,075 5,269 5,713 226 245 554 Bromley 4,938 4,123 3,153 5,216 4,271 3,338 278 148 185 Buckinghamshire 19,288 10,778 13,333 19,724 11,428 14,789 436 650 1,456 Cambridgeshire 22,308 11,054 20,620 23,071 11,604 22,780 763 550 2,160 Camden 5,637 5,424 6,392 5,544 5,580 6,784 -93 156 392 Cheshire 31,839 18,558 16,988 32,503 19,011 18,843 664 453 1,855 City of London 3,858 3,027 2,731 3,918 3,091 2,788 60 64 57 Cornwall 15,855 7,815 10,715 16,621 8,229 11,989 766 414 1,274 Croydon 6,367 5,514 4,625 6,636 5,557 5,327 269 43 702 Cumbria 17,057 10,894 9,873 17,695 11,449 10,512 638 555 639 Derbyshire 36,473 19,376 16,445 37,221 20,081 17,331 748 705 886 Devon 36,322 21,230 19,293 38,246 22,171 20,242 1,924 941 949 Dorset 24,246 12,086 11,950 24,652 12,704 13,241 406 618 1,291 Durham 19,249 14,353 7,997 19,297 14,628 9,823 48 275 1,826 Ealing 6,286 5,730 4,511 6,467 5,913 5,752 181 183 1,241 East Riding of 35,285 19,078 24,962 35,531 19,839 29,215 246 761 4,253 Yorkshire UA East Sussex 21,633 13,113 16,138 21,550 13,685 17,357 -83 572 1,219 Enfield 5,771 3,577 3,761 6,015 3,685 4,004 244 108 243 Essex 43,126 27,118 24,994 46,857 28,037 26,272 3,731 919 1,278 Gloucestershire 17,470 9,472 10,523 17,306 9,941 11,850 -164 469 1,327 Greenwich 6,510 5,147 3,594 6,694 5,225 4,584 184 78 990 Hackney 4,291 5,551 6,107 5,447 5,653 6,159 1,156 102 52 Hammersmith 4,572 3,813 4,343 4,297 3,904 4,714 -275 91 371 and Fulham Hampshire 46,218 27,387 30,025 47,417 28,378 33,549 1,199 991 3,524 Haringey 6,954 5,662 5,487 6,814 5,771 6,122 -140 109 635 Harrow 5,483 3,949 4,088 5,065 3,916 4,574 -418 -33 486 Havering 5,803 4,587 3,094 5,723 4,746 3,463 -80 159 369 Hertfordshire 27,464 18,529 20,843 28,610 19,224 22,557 1,146 695 1,714 Hillingdon 6,192 4,663 4,158 6,249 4,834 4,541 57 171 383 Hounslow 5,820 4,621 4,916 5,740 4,820 5,217 -80 199 301 Isle of Wight UA 4,808 2,716 2,955 4,835 2,843 3,327 27 127 372 Islington 5,838 4,850 4,992 5,978 5,107 5,341 140 257 349 Kensington and 3,386 2,100 2,890 3,519 2,162 3,116 133 62 226 Chelsea Kent 42,077 26,714 23,990 43,385 27,950 26,607 1,308 1,236 2,617 Kingston upon 4,298 2,861 2,871 4,332 2,472 3,084 34 -389 213 Thames Lambeth 4,468 6,019 7,309 4,771 6,093 6,238 303 74 -1,071 Lancashire 53,572 33,419 33,905 53,663 34,711 38,199 91 1,292 4,294 Leicestershire 31,782 16,309 17,456 33,097 17,256 18,047 1,315 947 591 Lewisham 6,380 6,005 5,815 6,436 6,085 6,237 56 80 422 Lincolnshire 20,221 11,592 17,831 20,200 12,179 19,831 -21 587 2,000 London Pensions 20,476 32,064 22,037 19,920 32,534 23,138 -556 470 1,101 Fund Auth Merseyside 50,367 39,024 26,328 50,543 39,880 28,108 176 856 1,780 Pension Fund Merton 3,355 2,800 2,548 3,395 2,879 2,679 40 79 131 Middlesbrough 26,976 16,101 13,512 25,718 16,736 16,044 -1,258 635 2,532 UA Newham 6,781 5,713 4,820 6,943 5,904 5,115 162 191 295 Norfolk 25,868 14,714 14,616 27,659 15,457 14,568 1,791 743 -48 North Yorkshire 27,535 12,491 17,246 28,372 13,333 19,953 837 842 2,707 181W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 182W

Data as at 31 March 2008 Data as at 31 March 2009 Difference Number Number Number Pensioners of former Pensioners of former Pensioners of former (retired scheme (retired scheme (retired scheme employees members employees members employees members Number of (inc flexible entitled to Number of (inc flexible entitled to Number of (inc flexible entitled to contributing retirees)or deferred contributing retirees)or deferred contributing retirees)or deferred members dependants) benefits members dependants) benefits members dependants) benefits

Northamptonshire 20,180 10,477 10,084 20,124 10,946 11,461 -56 469 1,377 Northumberland 9,258 6,077 5,828 9,031 6,312 5,933 -227 235 105 Nottinghamshire 40,408 22,434 24,352 41,409 23,255 26,660 1,001 821 2,308 Oxfordshire 20,307 8,850 11,970 20,859 9,462 13,373 552 612 1,403 Redbridge 5,296 3,692 4,162 5,581 3,793 3,397 285 101 -765 Richmond upon 3,253 2,740 3,029 3,364 2,839 3,330 111 99 301 Thames Shropshire 14,975 7,084 8,309 14,846 6,320 9,335 -129 -764 1,026 Somerset 19,841 9,751 10,897 20,092 10,157 12,469 251 406 1,572 54,645 32,530 28,679 54,053 34,034 30,903 -592 1,504 2,224 Pension Fund South Yorkshire 534 1,128 555 466 1,184 553 -68 56 -2 PTA Southwark 6,699 5,823 5,608 6,777 6,016 5,752 78 193 144 Staffordshire 37,751 20,265 22,710 38,043 21,599 25,445 292 1,334 2,735 Suffolk 18,299 9,892 10,161 18,796 10,471 13,023 497 579 2,862 Surrey 26,955 16,501 20,451 28,200 17,203 22,400 1,245 702 1,949 Sutton 3,769 2,609 2,536 4,004 2,646 2,786 235 37 250 Tameside 103,172 76,241 69,864 102,016 78,521 76,193 -1,156 2,280 6,329 Tower Hamlets 5,530 3,644 4,508 5,395 3,639 4,847 -135 -5 339 Tyne and Wear 48,186 31,890 23,696 50,002 33,024 24,526 1,816 1,134 830 Superannuation Fund Waltham Forest 6,542 5,531 3,163 6,435 5,650 3,448 -107 119 285 Wandsworth 5,097 4,241 5,548 5,022 4,415 6,072 -75 174 524 Warwickshire 15,775 7,863 7,510 16,569 8,224 8,515 794 361 1,005 West Midlands 107,845 61,206 66,321 108,224 63,840 70,783 379 2,634 4,462 Pensions Fund West Midlands 1,054 3,206 1,058 982 3,270 1,030 -72 64 -28 PTA West Sussex 21,440 12,822 14,667 22,250 13,393 15,802 810 571 1,135 West Yorkshire 92,732 57,961 60,382 94,646 60,282 60,459 1,914 2,321 77 Superannuation Fund Westminster 4,232 4,700 4,895 4,319 4,753 5,073 87 53 178 Wiltshire 19,055 9,530 14,022 19,130 10,066 15,366 75 536 1,344 Windsor and 18,324 10,400 13,001 19,409 10,888 14,577 1,085 488 1,576 Maidenhead UA Worcestershire 20,269 11,606 10,425 20,282 12,184 11,100 13 578 675 England 1,656,341 1,050,217 1,054,733 1,685,096 1,089,886 1,148,629 28,755 39,669 93,896

Mortgage Rescue Scheme Figures reported by local authorities from January to September 2009 are provided in a table which has been Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for placed in the Library. Communities and Local Government how many people resident in each local authority area have (a) applied for and (b) received help under the Mortgage Mortgages Rescue Scheme since the scheme was established. [300381] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for John Healey: We have acted rapidly to put in place a Communities and Local Government how many first range of help and support for households struggling time buyers defaulted on their mortgage in each of the with their mortgage at every stage, and launched a last three years. [301450] campaign to ensure households have clear information about the help available. Mr. Ian Austin: The Department does not collect Mortgage Rescue Scheme summary monitoring statistics information on mortgage possessions and arrears although are published on a quarterly basis on the Department’s information for the United Kingdom as a whole is website. Figures can be assessed using the following published separately by the Council of Mortgage Lenders link: (CML) and the Financial Services Authority (FSA). http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ These are not split by whether the borrower was a first statistics/mortgagerescuestatistics time buyer or not. 183W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 184W

National Coalfields Programme As far as assessing the risk from fire is concerned, the lack of smoke detectors and or heat detectors, or defective Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for smoke detectors and or heat detectors with alarms are Communities and Local Government what recent considered relevant matters in an HHSRS assessment. progress has been made on the National Coalfields In 2001 the Department issued guidance to all local Programme; and if he will make a statement. [300446] authority housing directors emphasising the importance the government attaches to encouraging the wider provision Mr. Ian Austin: I refer the hon. Member to the of smoke alarms in domestic properties. Homes and Communities Agency’s 2008-09 Annual More broadly, it has been our policy for some time Report and Accounts, which are available in the Library that smoke alarms have a vital role to play in saving of the House, and can also be found at: lives as they provide the vital early warning of fire and http://www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/publications therefore help people to escape. Since 1987, the Government have conducted high profile national and regional television Overcrowded Households campaigns promoting smoke alarms which have proved very successful. Ownership has increased from 9 per Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for cent. in 1987 to the current level of 80 pert cent. and we Communities and Local Government what assessment are seeking to raise it further as evidence suggests that has been made of the effectiveness of the overcrowding those without alarms are often in those groups who are pathfinders in tackling overcrowding and severe most at risk from fire. The Government are currently overcrowding. [301764] running a national media advertisement to promote smoke alarms ownership and maintenance messages. Mr. Ian Austin: Since April 2008, the 54 local authorities in the pathfinder programme have rehoused approximately Vacant Land: Tamworth 30,000 overcrowded households. CLG continue to support and monitor pathfinder Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for progress through regular meetings with the National Communities and Local Government how many acres Overcrowding Coordinator. of green space excluding flood plains there are in the Borough of Tamworth. [300770] Sheltered Housing: Tamworth Mr. Ian Austin: The latest figure we have on the Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for amount of green space within the borough of Tamworth, Communities and Local Government how much Tamworth excluding the flood plain, is 2,400 acres. Government Borough Council spent on sheltered housing in each of do not maintain a comprehensive record of information the last three years. [301615] on green spaces, but this information is available from many local authorities, given their responsibility for the Mr. Ian Austin: The following table shows the amounts effective planning and management of green spaces. spent by Tamworth borough council on sheltered housing The borough of Tamworth may collect and hold its in each of the last three financial years (2006-7; 2007-8; own information on the quantity of green space in its and 2008-9). area. Sheltered housing and Alarm call services £ Revenue Capital Total revenue expenditure expenditure and capital HEALTH

2006-07 1,035,852.46 32,254.38 1,068,106.84 2007-8 1,064,090.72 42,294.00 1,106,384.72 Abortion 2008-09 1,045,884.35 113,924.17 1,159,808.52 Three year 3,145,827.53 188,472.55 3,334,300.08 Mr. Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for total Health what steps his Department is taking to address the variation in levels of repeat abortions across Smoke Alarms England. [300328]

Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Gillian Merron: One of the aims of the Government’s Communities and Local Government if he will make it Sexual Health and HIV Strategy for England is to his policy to require (a) local authorities and (b) reduce the number of unintended pregnancies. The registered social landlords to ensure that all of their standard national health service contract for 2009-10 residential properties have working smoke alarms. includes a new clause to ensure that abortion providers [300219] improve access to the full range of contraception for women undergoing abortion. A specification for abortion Mr. Ian Austin: The Housing Health and Safety services is currently being developed to support Rating System (HHSRS) assesses 29 categories of housing implementation of this new requirement. hazards, such as excess cold, electrical hazards, falls, The Department has invested £20.5 million in 2009-10 fire, explosions etc. It applies to all residential property to improve access to contraception to improve all women’s regardless of tenure. If a local authority considers that knowledge of, and access to the full range of contraception there is a serious (Category 1) hazard, it has a duty to and help reduce the number of unintended pregnancies, take the most appropriate action. abortion and repeat abortions. This includes £7 million 185W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 186W for a “contraceptive choices” media campaign and a and promotional material at blood collection sessions. further £10 million to strategic health authorities (SHAs) It is not possible, therefore, to provide an exact figure for local action. for the amount spent on advertising exclusively for the Primary care trusts and SHAs were asked to use their recruitment of bone marrow donors. funding to improve access to all contraceptive methods Not all of those currently on the British Bone Marrow to reduce teenage conception, abortion and repeat abortion Register will still be active blood donors, although at rates, particularly in areas where teenage pregnancy the time of joining the BBMR all would have been rates were high. We are actively working with the SHAs registered as blood donors. As of September 2009, the to monitor additional spend and share best practice. estimated figures supplied by NHSBT for bone marrow donors on the blood donor register were: Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much it cost his Department to (a) collect, (b) Region Number Percentage process, (c) collate and (d) store statistics on abortion Midlands and South 93,369 30 in the most recent 12-months for which figures are West available; and if he will make a statement. [300793] Northern 101,548 33 London and South 92,712 30 Gillian Merron: This information is not collated in East the categories requested. Registered medical practitioners Northern Ireland 9,060 3 are legally required to send a notification to the chief Scotland 13,823 4.5 medical officer after each abortion is performed. Note: Information derived from the form is used to monitor Numbers in Wales are not held. compliance with the Abortion Act 1967, as amended, and to compile statistical outputs as appropriate. The number of donors on the BBMR for the years 2001-02 to 2008-09 are listed as follows. The totals do The overall cost to the Department over the last not represent the availability of donors as this can 12 months of issuing, processing and storing the forms, fluctuate for many different reasons. We do not have and the provision of statistical outputs is estimated to figures for the Welsh Bone Marrow Donor Registry. be £408,670. This figure includes staff, printing and information technology costs. Total

Accident and Emergency Departments 2001-02 149,500 2002-03 154,500 Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State 2003-04 176,500 for Health if he will rank by mortality rate those 2004-05 210,500 accident and emergency departments with annual 2005-06 250,500 admissions below 69,000 in the latest year for which 2006-07 267,100 information is available. [300330] 2007-08 283,700 2008-09 292,100 Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not collected centrally. In addition to the British Bone Marrow Register, stem cell donations are also sourced from the NHS Bone Marrow Disorders: Donors Cord Blood Bank, which at present has around 13,000 stored umbilical cord blood units. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how much his Department has spent on advertising Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for the recruitment of bone marrow donors in each of what assessment he has made of the merits of using the last 12 years; and if he will make a statement; DNA swabs to identify matches for bone marrow [300668] donors. [300672] (2) what proportion of people who were on the Blood Donor Register were also on the Bone Marrow Gillian Merron: The British Bone Marrow Registry Donor Register on the latest date for which figures are recruits donors from the blood donor population. The available; [300671] tissue type of a donor is identified through tests carried (3) how many registered stem cell donors there were out on samples collected during blood donation, which in each year since registration began; [300673] is believed to be a more stable medium than DNA (4) what proportion of bone marrow donors were swabs. As there is currently no requirement for additional resident in (a) England, (b) Wales, (c) Northern tests such as DNA swabs to be carried out, no such Ireland and (d) Scotland in each of the last 12 years. assessment has been made. [300913] Breast Cancer Gillian Merron: The British Bone Marrow Registry (BBMR) is run by the NHS Blood and Transplant Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (NHSBT). Bone marrow donors are recruited from the how many and what proportion of all breast cancer existing pool of blood donors. cases were diagnosed through the (a) non-urgent Therefore, the promotion of bone marrow donation referral route, (b) screening and (c) urgent referral is carried out in conjunction with blood donor promotion route in (i) England, (ii) each cancer network area and campaigns. Examples include the NHSBT website, The (iii) each primary care trust area in each of the last five Donor magazine, which is sent to 1.4 million donors, years. [300553] 187W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 188W

Ann Keen: The following table provides the most Information is collected annually from national health recent statistics for England, and the previous years service providers showing the average daily number of requested, showing the number of breast cancers diagnosed available and occupied beds. However, this is not broken by cytology and/or histology following breast screening down by specialty. The latest data is for 2008-09 and is in England: published on the Department’s website at: www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Statistics/ Cancers diagnosed by cytology Performancedataandstatistics/index.htm and/or histology following breast screening Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2003-04 11,277 how many patients were offered breast prostheses 2004-05 11,966 following surgery for breast cancer expressed in each 2005-06 13,524 cancer network in the latest period for which figures are 2006-07 13,443 available; and what proportion of all patients 2007-08 14,110 undergoing breast cancer surgery this represented in each case. [300558]

Information is not centrally held on the number of Ann Keen: The requested information is not held cancers diagnosed following an appointment at an NHS centrally. breast screening service on a primary care trust or network basis. Climate Change However, these statistics are available on a breast screening unit basis; a copy of these statistics has been Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for placed in the Library. Health how many (a) Ministers and (b) civil servants The NHS Cancer Plan (2000) introduced commitments from his Department will be attending the United Nations for waiting times for cancer treatment between referral Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen in an official and first treatment and diagnosis and first treatment, capacity. [300882] for breast cancer. The statistics used to monitor these commitments indicate the number of patients who were Phil Hope: No Ministers or officials from the Department urgently referred for suspected cancer by their general will be attending the United Nations Climate Change practitioner (GP), and those who entered secondary Conference in Copenhagen in an official capacity. care from another referral source or with a different priority.Only patients who receive first definitive treatment Dental Services within English NHS providers are included within these statistics. Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for For the years 2004-05 to 2008-09 the following table Health how his Department plans to respond to the indicates the proportion of patients who received first British Dental Association’s proposal for changes to definitive treatment for breast cancer following an urgent the dental access contract to be introduced on a trial referral for suspected cancer from their GP. basis. [300355]

Treated Ann Keen: On 17 November 2009, primary care trusts following other (PCTs) were notified of the availability of a template, Treated referral Percentage which has been developed as part of the Department’s following (including NHS following Dental Access Programme for use in contracting with two week screening Total two week dental providers for additional national health service wait programmes) treated wait primary care dental services. The final version of the 2004-05 14,575 16,244 30,819 47.3 template took account of views expressed by the British 2005-06 16,635 18,728 35,363 47.0 Dental Association during consultations on its preparation. 2006-07 17,610 18,298 35,908 49.0 It is up to individual dental providers to decide if they 2007-08 17,602 18,648 36,250 48.6 wish tender for services provided in accordance with the 2008-09 18,045 17,998 36,043 50.1 template. No changes are being imposed on existing Source: providers. Department of Health, Cancer Waiting Times Database While the template includes quality standards, in line with the recommendations of the Independent Review The quarterly statistics for this area do not identify of NHS Dental Services in England published in June individual primary care trusts due to small cell counts. 2009, we will pilot these recommendations carefully However a table showing equivalent data by NHS provider, before making any substantive proposals to the general with accompanying details of data sources, definitions dental services contract and the personal dental service and calculations, has been placed in the Library. contract used in commissioning primary care dental services generally. Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the percentage of bed occupancy was for patients Departmental Cost Effectiveness with breast cancer was in (a) England, (b) each cancer network and (c) each primary care trust area in each Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of the last five years. [300556] what efficiency savings projects (a) his Department and (b) its agencies put in place under the Operational Ann Keen: The requested information is not centrally Efficiency Programme; on what date each such project held. was initiated; how much each such project was 189W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 190W expected to contribute to departmental savings; how Phil Hope: The Department’s two executive agencies, much had been saved through each such project on the and nine of its 10 non-departmental public bodies did latest date for which figures are available; and if he will not pay any bonuses or incentives to consultants and make a statement. [300935] contractors in the last three years. A single bonus payment of £1,000 was made to a Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department is working actively contractor in the 2006-07 financial year by the Postgraduate with its arms length bodies, national health service Medical Education and Training Board, which is a organisations and others including HM Treasury and non-departmental public body. the Shareholder Executive to implement the recommendations of the Operational Efficiency Programme. Departmental Recycling Rather than initiating new projects, in many areas this builds upon significant progress made by the Department and the NHS in recent years. Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health For example, NHS Shared Business Services was what weight of paper his Department recycled in each established in 2005 and is now delivering shared back of the last five years. [300781] office services for over 100 NHS organisations. Phil Hope: The tonnage of paper recycled from Through better collaborative procurement, the NHS Department of Health offices is as follows: has recorded billions of pounds of savings in recent years, including through the Gershon efficiency programme. Table 1 To ensure continued progress on procurement, a new Year (April to March) Amount (tonnes) Department of Health and NHS Commercial Operating 2005-06 303.85 Model was launched earlier this year. 2006-07 286.70 Savings from the areas covered by the Operational 2007-08 264.03 Efficiency Programme will contribute to our existing 2008-09 218.20 value for money target for the current comprehensive spending review period. The Department’s 2009 autumn The data in Table 1 relates only to the Department’s performance report will be published in December and core London administrative offices at Richmond House, will include an update on progress towards this target. Wellington House, Skipton House and New Kings Beam House. Figures for our building in Leeds are collected Departmental Disclosure of Information and reported by the Department for Work and Pensions. Our departmental file store in Nelson, Lancashire, Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for recycled the following amounts: Health how many allegations of victimisation for whistleblowing have been made to his Department by Table 2 Year (April to March) Amount (tonnes) its staff since 6 June 2006. [301507] 2006-07 46 Phil Hope: No allegations of victimisation for 2007-08 48 whilstleblowing have been made to the Department by 2008-09 40 its staff. The Department revised its whilstleblowing policy in Data for Nelson are not available for earlier years. May 2009 to tighten internal processes for handling concerns raised by staff against any breach of the civil Departmental Theft service code. It now also includes a process for handling concerns raised with the Department about external organisations or individuals involved in the conduct of Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for our business. Health how many of his Department’s officials have (a) been reprimanded, (b) had their contract of Departmental Legal Costs employment terminated and (c) been prosecuted for theft of departmental property in each of the last three years; and what items were stolen in each case. [300965] Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what expenditure his Department and its agencies have Phil Hope: In the last three years, none of the incurred on external legal advice and representation in Department’s officials have been reprimanded or had each year since 1997; and for what purposes such their contracts of employment terminated for theft of professional services have been commissioned. [300577] departmental property, neither has any departmental official been prosecuted for such a theft or thefts, during Phil Hope: The information requested could only be that time. provided at disproportionate cost. Departmental Pay Drugs: Misuse

John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for what (a) bonuses and (b) incentives have been paid to Health how much funding has been allocated by the (i) consultants and (ii) contractors engaged by National Treatment Agency for substance misuse to executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies each local authority in the last three years; and how for which his Department is responsible in each of the much is planned to be spent on such funding for the last three years. [300638] next three years. [301043] 191W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 192W

Gillian Merron: The Department makes allocations Groups entitled to NHS sight tests Groups entitled to free NHS dental care of ear-marked funding in the form of the pooled treatment budget (PTB) to primary care trusts to supplement Aged 60 or over A woman who is pregnant, or who resources identified locally from mainstream budgets has had a baby in the 12 months before treatment starts for drug treatment. Tables have been placed in the A diagnosed glaucoma patient, or A person who is an NHS in-patient Library showing allocations for each year since 2006-07 someone who has been advised by whose treatment is carried out by a and indicative allocations for 2010-11, and in respect an ophthalmologist that they are at hospital dentist only of the young people’s PTB indicative allocations risk of glaucoma, or someone aged 40 or over who is a parent, brother, for 2011-12 also. Indicative allocations for the adult sister, son or daughter of a PTB for next year will be subject to change in the light diagnosed glaucoma patient of 2009-10 performance data submitted to the National A person diagnosed as diabetic 1A person who is an NHS Hospital Treatment Agency by local drug partnerships. No decision Dental Service out-patient A person who is registered as When the treatment starts or when has yet been taken about funding beyond the indicative severely sight-impaired/blind or the charge is made, a person or their allocations as noted above. sight-impaired/partially sighted partner who is getting: Income Support Income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance Pension Credit Guarantee Eye Tests and Dental Checks Credit A person who needs complex lenses A person who is entitled to, or named on, a valid NHS tax credit exemption Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for certificate Health what estimate he has made of the cost of A patient whose sight test is carried A person who is named on a valid providing every person with a free annual (a) eye test out through a hospital eye NHS Low Income scheme HC2 [300357] department as part of the certificate and (b) dental check in 2009. management of an eye condition A person who is getting, or whose Ann Keen: We have made no estimate of the cost of partner is getting: Income Support providing everyone with a free annual eye test and free Income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance Pension Credit annual dental check. Guarantee Credit The appropriate frequency for sight tests varies according A person who is entitled to, or named on, a valid NHS tax credit to an individual’s age and clinical requirements. Current exemption certificate guidance indicates that for the majority of people aged A person who is named on a valid between 16 and 70 years, the minimum interval between NHS Low Income scheme HC2 sight tests could be two years. More frequent tests are certificate appropriate for children or those aged 70 and over, or if 1 There may be a charge for dentures and bridges an individual is at particular risk of eye disease, is In 2008-09 11.3 million NHS sight tests were provided concerned that they may have an eye condition, or an by primary care practitioners within the General optometrist or ophthalmic medical practitioner judges Ophthalmic Service in England. This may not fully that more frequent tests are clinically necessary. equate to the number of individuals who received tests, The appropriate frequency for dental checks depends because some people may have had more than one test upon an individual’s oral health status. Guidance from within the year. Further details including the breakdown the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (Dental of the number of tests according to the category of Recall – recall interval between routine dental examinations, entitlement recorded for each patient is available in the October 2004, available on the NICE website at report General Ophthalmic Service: Activity Statistics http://guidance.nice.org.uk/CG19/Guidance/pdf/English for England and Wales Year Ending 31 March 2009 recommends that dentists recall patients at any interval published by the NHS Information Centre for health between three months and two years, according to each and social care. A copy of the report is available at the person’s oral health needs. Information Centre’s website at: www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and-data-collections/primary-care/ Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for eye-care/general-phthalmic-services:-activity-statistics-for- Health how many people are entitled to a free annual england-and-wales-year-ending-31-march-2009 (a) eye test and (b) dental check; how many people In 2008-09, 18.4 million courses of dental treatment received such tests in 2008-09; and what the cost was. were provided by NHS primary dental care services in [300358] England to patients who qualified for free treatment. This will not equate to the number of individuals who Ann Keen: It is not possible to identify how many received care because some people will have received people are currently entitled to free national health more than one course of treatment within the year. service sight tests and dental checks. Those groups who Most courses of treatment will have incorporated a are entitled to NHS sight tests (which are available to all dental examination. Further details, including the individuals within the eligible groups at no charge) or breakdown of the number of courses of treatment free dental care are summarised in the following table. according to the category of entitlement recorded for Statistics are not available on the number of individuals each patient, is available in the report NHS Dental who fall within all of these categories; nor can we Statistics for England: 2008-09 published by the NHS identify how many people might be counted within Information Centre for Health and Social Care. A copy more than one category. of the Information Centre report has already been placed in the Library. Groups entitled to NHS sight tests Groups entitled to free NHS dental care The cost of NHS sight tests provided within the Aged under 16, or aged 16, 17 or 18 Aged under 18, or aged 18 in full- General Ophthalmic Service in 2008-09 is estimated at in full-time education time education £223 million. 193W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 194W

Since dentists are no longer paid an itemised fee for Multiple Sclerosis: Drugs each element of treatment under the new primary dental service contract arrangements introduced in April 2006, Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for it is not possible to separately identify the cost of dental Health (1) what assessment he has made of the effects examinations. of the risk sharing scheme for the provision of multiple sclerosis disease-modifying drugs on the availability of Health: Screening other drugs for the treatment of multiple sclerosis, including drugs approved by the National Institute for Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health and Clinical Excellence; [300341] what the average waiting time was for patients to (2) when he expects the risk sharing scheme will be receive the 15 key diagnostic tests in each year since the able to demonstrate the value for money of multiple collection of this data began in 2006. [300335] sclerosis disease-modifying drugs; [300342] Mr. Mike O’Brien: Average (median) waiting times (3) what the cost has been of the risk sharing scheme for the patients waiting for the 15 key diagnostic tests for disease-modifying drugs since its inception. [300343] are shown in the following table: Mr. Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Median waiting times for patients waiting for the 15 key diagnostic (1) what assessment he has made of progress on the tests (weeks) March 2006 to September 2009 risk-sharing scheme for provision of multiple sclerosis Median waiting time for Time period ending 15 diagnostic tests disease-modifying drugs; [301571] (2) what his most recent estimate is of the cost to March 2006 5.8 date of the risk-sharing scheme for the provision of June 2006 5.4 multiple sclerosis disease-modifying drugs; and what September 2006 5.2 estimate he has made of the total cost of the scheme December 2006 5.5 over its projected lifespan; [301580] March 2007 3.9 (3) what recent assessment he has made of the June 2007 3.4 operation of the risk-sharing scheme for the provision September 2007 2.8 of multiple sclerosis disease-modifying drugs. [301581] December 2007 3.0 March 2008 2.1 Mr. Mike O’Brien: While we have made no formal June 2008 1.7 assessment, we consider that it is unlikely the scheme September 2008 1.6 has made any significant impact on the availability of December 2008 2.2 other drugs used to treat multiple sclerosis. The drugs March 2009 1.7 included in the scheme are used within criteria developed June 2009 1.7 by the Association of British Neurologists. The national September 2009 1.6 health service is obliged to fund other drugs approved Note: by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence Median waiting times are calculated from aggregate data, rather than (NICE) within the terms of the appraisal guidance. patient level data, and therefore are only estimates of the position on Natalizumab (Tysabri) is the only other licensed medicine average waits. This should be taken into account when interpreting data. which has an impact on the course of the disease and Source: has been recommended by NICE for use in the NHS. Department of Health Diagnostic Waiting List Collection DM01 Data from the first two years of follow-up of the Herbal Medicine monitoring cohort of the Multiple Sclerosis Risk Sharing Scheme have been collected and these data have been analysed and interpreted by an independent advisory Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if group. A paper outlining the results is to be published he will take steps to collect data on the proportion by shortly on the British Medical Journal’s website value of all medicinal products which are herbal medicinal products; and if he will make a statement. www.bmj.com [301106] We estimate that the costs incurred since the scheme’s inception are in the order of £350 million. This figure is Gillian Merron: We have no plans to instigate collection made up of £200,000 a year representing the Department’s of the data that would be necessary to make such an 20 per cent. share of running the contract; an average estimate. Herbal medicinal products are generally sold £35,000 a year to meet the MS Trust’s administration as non prescription medicines and may be supplied by a costs for the scheme and drug costs of around wide variety of outlets. £50 million a year.

Mental Health Services: South East Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many packs of the drug Natalizumab, Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for brand name Tysabri, have been issued in each strategic Health what steps his Department is taking to reduce health authority area in each of the last two years. waiting lists for mental health services in (a) Milton [300344] Keynes and (b) the South East. [300272] Mr. Mike O’Brien: This drug was not dispensed in Phil Hope: The planning and development of health the community in 2007 or 2008 but has been used in services, including metal health services, is a matter for hospitals. The rate of use by strategic health authority the local national health service. (SHA) is: 195W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 196W

Number of packs for Tysabri1 used by each SHA in England protect the wider interest of the public or the trust, Thousand including commercial-in-confidence matters. SHA 2007 2008

North East 0.0 0.4 NHS: Finance North West 0.0 0.4 Yorkshire and the — 0.3 Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for Humber Health with reference to the Answer of 26 October East Midlands 0.0 0.1 2009, Official Report, column 108W, on NHS: finance, West Midlands 0.0 0.2 how much will be repaid against each loan in East of England 0.0 0.2 (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12, (c) 2012-13, (d) 2013-14 and London 0.1 1.0 (e) 2014-15. [301021] South East Coast — 0.0 South Central — 0.1 Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department makes loans to South West 0.0 0.3 national health services trusts and national health service Total 0.2 3.0 foundation trusts. The information requested has been 1 A pack is a 15 millilitre vial. placed in the Library. Notes: 1. Where less than 50 packs have been used, the figure has been NHS: ICT suppressed to ‘0.0’. 2. ‘—’ Indicates no use of the drug. 3. Totals may not add due to rounding. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State 4. IMSHealth do not collect data from all hospitals and there is less for Health what the average speed is of N3 network than 100 per cent. coverage in some SHAs. connections. [301371] Source: © IMS HEALTH: Hospital Pharmacy Audit Mr. Mike O’Brien: There are now over 32,000 live National Child Health Immunisation Board connections to the N3 network, including pharmacies, and the information requested could therefore be obtained Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State only at disproportionate cost. for Health if he will place in the Library the minutes of The size, and hence speed, of the N3 network connection the most recent meeting of the National Child Health is adjustable to take into account the systems and Immunisation Board. [301360] services used, and the number of staff employed, at any given national health service location. To exemplify the Gillian Merron: The National Child Health Immunisation range of speeds delivered, large acute hospital sites are Standards Board last met on 22 April 2009. The draft typically connected to N3 by 100 megabits per second minutes and a copy of the presentation given at the (mbps) Ethernet services. General practitioner practice meeting have been placed in the Library. The board’s sites might receive as much as eight mbps, though scheduled meeting in October 2009 was postponed to typically rather less depending, among other factors, on January 2010 as a result of the introduction of the distance from the telephone exchange. swine flu vaccination programme. Minutes are usually published after they are agreed at the board’s next NHS: Manpower meeting. Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS: Disclosure of Information Health what steps his Department is taking to encourage an increase in the number of people in the Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for thoracic surgical workforce in the NHS. [301630] Health (1) what guidance he has issued to NHS trusts on holding board meetings in public; [300463] Ann Keen: Local national health service organisations (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that (a) are best placed to decide what staff they need to deliver foundation trusts and (b) other NHS trusts hold board services to best meet the needs of the local populations, meetings in public. [300464] whether that is clinical staff such as thoracic surgeons, nurses and doctors, or non-clinical support staff including Mr. Mike O’Brien: The conduct of national health managers to help plan local services more effectively. service foundation trust board meetings is a matter for the trust. Prescriptions: Fees and Charges NHS trusts and primary care trusts are expected to follow the model standing orders issued by the Department. Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for These require board meetings to be held in public, Health how many and what percentage of NHS prescription although the press and public may be excluded when items attracted a charge in each of the last three years. the board is considering confidential business, where [301066] publicity would be prejudicial to the public interest. Monitor (the statutory name of which is the Independent Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information on the number and Regulator of NHS Foundation Trusts) has issued a percentage of prescription items attracting a charge is Code of Governance for NHS foundation trusts. This set out on page 25 of the NHS Information Centre for advises directors of NHS foundation trusts to follow a Health and Social Care’s “Prescriptions Dispensed in policy of openness and transparency in their proceedings the Community: Statistics for 1998 to 2008: England”, and decision making, unless this conflicts with a need to available at: 197W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 198W

www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and-data-collections/primary-care/ Table 1: Number of males, females and other defendants1 proceeded against at prescriptions/prescriptions-dispensed-in-the-community- magistrates court for selling alcohol to persons aged under 182, in England and Wales from 2003 to 2007, broken down by police force area3, 4 statistics-for-1998-to-2008:-england Force Sex 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Avon and Male 1 — 7 2 — Somerset HOME DEPARTMENT Female — — 7 3 1 Other 1———— 101 Calls defendant Total2—145 1 Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) how many full-time equivalent Bedfordshire Male 1 5 10 23 2 members of staff in (a) his Department and (b) its Female 1 2 — 1 — associated public bodies are working on projects Other ——— — relating to a national non-emergency, three-digit defendant telephone number; [300988] Total 2 7 10 24 2 (2) how much has been (a) spent on and (b) allocated to projects relating to a national non- Cambridgeshire Male — 3 6 16 8 emergency, three-digit telephone number in each of the Female — 1 3 11 2 last three years. [300994] Other ————— defendant Mr. Hanson: There are currently 0.5 full-time equivalent Total — 4 9 27 10 members of staff in the Home Office who are involved with working on the policy for the ‘101’ single national non-emergency service as part of their wider work to Cheshire Male 8 14 4 6 6 build public confidence in the police and their partners. Female 7 6 4 — — Other 1———— The National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) defendant has one member of staff who is responsible for contact Total1620866 management in the police service and their remit would therefore include the 101 single non-emergency service, as part of their wider role. Cleveland Male 1 6 11 8 8 Female 1 4 3 3 5 The approximate total spent and allocated by the Other 2———— Home Office on projects related to the ‘101’ national defendant non-emergency service in each of the last three years is: Total 4 10 14 11 13

£ million Spent Allocated Cumbria Male 1 1 2 1 1 Female — — 6 — — 2008-09 1.1 1 Other ————— 2007-08 12.5 13 defendant 2006-07 16.7 31 Total11811

Alcoholic Drinks: Young People Derbyshire Male 27 18 9 7 6 Female 10 4 4 1 1 Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the Other ————— Home Department how many successful prosecutions defendant there were for selling alcohol to people under the age of Total3722138 7 18 years from (a) on-licence and (b) off-licence premises in each police force area in the south east in each of the last five years. [301273] Devon and Male — 7 5 4 3 Cornwall Mr. Alan Campbell: Data showing the number of Female — 5 3 2 2 males, females and other defendants proceeded against Other ————— for selling alcohol to persons aged under 18, in England defendant and Wales from 2003 to 2007 (latest available) are Total—12865 shown in table 1. The data are broken down by police force area. Dorset Male 7 6 30 6 2 Establishments are included as ‘other defendants’ as Female 2 4 5 1 — it is not possible to differentiate between sales on and Other ————— off premises in the court proceedings database. defendant Additionally, penalty notices for disorder (PNDs) are Total 9 10 35 7 2 available for this offence. Table 2 shows the number of PNDs issued for “Sale of alcohol to a person aged Durham Male — 2 2 — 1 under 18” by gender from 2004 to 2007 (latest available). Female — — — — 2 Statistics for 2008 are planned for publication at the Other ————— end of January 2010. defendant 199W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 200W

Table 1: Number of males, females and other defendants1 proceeded against at Table 1: Number of males, females and other defendants1 proceeded against at magistrates court for selling alcohol to persons aged under 182, in England and magistrates court for selling alcohol to persons aged under 182, in England and Wales from 2003 to 2007, broken down by police force area3, 4 Wales from 2003 to 2007, broken down by police force area3, 4 Force Sex 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 Force Sex 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Total—22—3 Other ————— defendant Total 17 4 11 10 3 Essex Male 4 1 8 14 12 Female 3 1 — 2 2 Merseyside Male 25 13 12 12 21 Other ————— defendant Female 16 6 4 22 7 Total 7 2 8 16 14 Other 1———— defendant Total4219163428 Gloucestershire Male — 1 4 9 3 Female — — 1 1 — Metropolitan Male 84 133 223 197 136 Other —————Police defendant Female 13 22 28 24 18 Total—15103 Other 16 12 2 15 22 defendant Male 85 124 81 111 30 Total 113 167 253 236 176 Greater Female 40 55 36 48 5 Manchester Norfolk Male 1 6 — — 1 Other 41—1— defendant Female — 3 3 — 1 Total 129 180 117 160 35 Other ————— defendant Total193—2 Hampshire Male — 6 7 2 4 Female — 3 4 — — North Yorkshire Male 3 16 2 25 16 Other ————— defendant Female 4 6 1 16 13 Total—91124 Other ———27— defendant Total72236829 Hertfordshire Male 1 7 3 40 21 Female — 1 — — 2 Northamptonshire Male — — 7 11 7 Other ———— 1 defendant Female — — 4 2 — Total 1 8 3 40 24 Other ————— defendant Total——11137 Humberside Male — 3 2 3 2 Female — 8 — 3 3 Northumbria Male 31 36 65 30 8 Other ————— defendant Female 7 14 14 10 4 Total—11265 Other —1—1— defendant Total3851794112 Kent Male 9 10 13 2 2 Female 3 3 1 — — Nottinghamshire Male 5 — 6 26 3 Other — 2——— Female 4 — 5 11 2 defendant Total1215142 2 Other ————— defendant Total9—11375 Lancashire Male 15 14 49 22 24

Female 8 8 40 10 3 South Yorkshire Male — 4 11 8 4 Other ————— Female — 1 7 2 3 defendant Other ———— 2 Total2322893227 defendant Total — 5 18 10 9 Leicestershire Male 9 9 21 35 40 Female 6 — 6 10 15 Staffordshire Male 3 5 14 13 16 Other — 1——— Female 5 — 6 10 10 defendant Other ————— Total1510274555 defendant Total8 5202326 Lincolnshire Male 9 3 7 5 2 Female 8 1 4 5 1 Suffolk Male — 1 1 2 — 201W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 202W

Table 1: Number of males, females and other defendants1 proceeded against at Table 1: Number of males, females and other defendants1 proceeded against at magistrates court for selling alcohol to persons aged under 182, in England and magistrates court for selling alcohol to persons aged under 182, in England and Wales from 2003 to 2007, broken down by police force area3, 4 Wales from 2003 to 2007, broken down by police force area3, 4 Force Sex 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 Force Sex 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Female — — 2 2 — Gwent Male — 8 13 14 8 Other ————— Female 2 12 3 6 5 defendant Other ——— 1— Total—134— defendant Total 2 20 16 21 13

Surrey Male 4 9 12 17 3 Female — 1 1 1 2 North Wales Male 4 3 8 3 6 Other ————— Female 3 2 2 1 2 defendant Other ————— Total 4 10 13 18 5 defendant Total751048

Sussex Male 7 3 2 23 8 Female 1 1 2 9 3 South Wales Male 24 27 40 56 22 Other ——— 1— Female 5 6 15 15 4 defendant Other —1—13 Total 8 4 4 33 11 defendant Total2934557229

Thames Valley Male 2 19 6 28 14 Female 4 8 9 8 6 England and Male 427 614 807 883 515 Wales Other — 1——— defendant Female 161 225 274 266 146 Total 6 28 15 36 20 Other 28 22 3 50 32 defendant Total 616 861 1,084 1,199 693 Warwickshire Male 19 17 5 2 1 1 Female 7 9 2 — — Other defendants include companies and public bodies etc. 2 Includes the following offences: Other 1————(a) Holder of occasional permission or his agent knowingly selling to, defendant knowingly allow consumption by or allowing any person to sell, intoxicating Total2726721liquor to a person under 18. Selling etc. intoxicating liquor to person under 18 for consumption on the premises. (b) Wholesaler selling intoxicating liquor to a person under 18. (c ) Sale of alcohol to person under 18. West Mercia Male 7 3 17 10 5 (d) Allowing sale of alcohol to person under 18. Female — 1 2 — — (e) Persistently selling alcohol to children. 3 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal Other — 1——— offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found defendant guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which Total 7 5 19 10 5 the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. West Midlands Male 20 34 53 55 40 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted Female — 11 22 18 16 from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police Other ——111force. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection defendant processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Total2045767457Source: Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform Ref: IOS 043-09 West Yorkshire Male 1 17 9 14 8 Table 2: Number of penalty notices for disorder (PNDs) issued for sale of Female — 4 6 3 1 alcohol to a person under 18, England and Wales, 20041 to 2007, broken down by police force area Other 1————Force Sex 2004 2005 2006 2007 defendant Total 2 21 15 17 9 Avon and Male — 29 25 33 Somerset Female — 27 29 27 Wiltshire Male 4 5 16 9 5 Total — 56 54 60 Female 1 3 7 1 1 Other 1 2——— defendant Bedfordshire Male — 1 6 10 Total 6 10 23 10 6 Female —173 Total — 2 13 13

Dyfed-Powys Male 5 15 4 12 6 Female — 9 2 4 4 Cambridgeshire Male — 8 14 16 Female — 3 15 6 Other ———23 defendant Total — 11 29 22 Total52461813

Cheshire Male — 21 19 19 203W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 204W

Table 2: Number of penalty notices for disorder (PNDs) issued for sale of Table 2: Number of penalty notices for disorder (PNDs) issued for sale of alcohol to a person under 18, England and Wales, 20041 to 2007, broken down by alcohol to a person under 18, England and Wales, 20041 to 2007, broken down by police force area police force area Force Sex 2004 2005 2006 2007 Force Sex 2004 2005 2006 2007

Female — 28 31 7 Total — 10 5 23 Total — 49 50 26 Lancashire Male 17 95 105 100 Cleveland Male — 10 10 27 Female 13 95 101 90 Female — 23 13 38 Total 30 190 206 190 Total — 33 23 65 Leicestershire Male 2 22 26 89 Cumbria Male — 10 11 13 Female — 24 33 61 Female — 13 10 27 Total 2 46 59 150 Total — 23 21 40 Lincolnshire Male — 10 21 15 Derbyshire Male — 5 16 50 Female — 16 36 39 Female — 3 14 51 Total — 26 57 54 Total — 8 30 101 Merseyside Male 2 44 56 72 Devon and Male — 32 54 31 Female — 29 71 103 Cornwall Total 2 73 127 175 Female — 50 61 38 Total — 82 115 69 Metropolitan Male 12 113 190 264 Police Dorset Male 13 3 9 20 Female 9 48 62 77 Female 9 19 20 15 Total 21 161 252 341 Total22222935 Norfolk Male — — 5 17 Durham Male — — 1 12 Female — — 5 19 Female ———13 Total——1036 Total — — 1 25 Northamptonshire Male 1 15 18 15 Essex Male 3 60 42 53 Female — 24 16 7 Female 4 60 52 58 Total 1 39 34 22 Total 7 120 94 111 Northumbria Male 1 24 47 44 Gloucestershire Male — 17 28 44 Female — 24 37 23 Female — 25 26 42 Total 1 48 84 67 Total — 42 54 86 North Yorkshire Male — — 4 8 Greater Male — 60 122 98 Female — — 7 17 Manchester Total——1125 Female — 67 89 43 Total — 127 211 141 Nottinghamshire Male 3 54 125 81 Female 6 63 140 87 Hampshire Male 1 31 57 114 Total 9 117 265 168 Female 1 36 52 91

Total 2 67 109 205 South Yorkshire Male 1 47 76 69 Female 1 60 82 90

Hertfordshire Male — 2 30 46 Total 2 107 158 159 Female — 1 11 21 Total — 3 41 67 Staffordshire Male — 6 34 32 Female — 13 41 35

Humberside Male 1 13 22 46 Total — 19 75 67 Female 1 32 26 52 Total 2 45 48 98 Suffolk Male — 11 14 7 Female — 8 7 13

Kent Male — 8 3 16 Total — 19 21 20 Female —227 205W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 206W

Table 2: Number of penalty notices for disorder (PNDs) issued for sale of Asylum alcohol to a person under 18, England and Wales, 20041 to 2007, broken down by police force area Force Sex 2004 2005 2006 2007 Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Surrey Male — — 22 57 Home Department how many nationals of (a) Afghanistan, (b) Belarus, (c) Burma, (d) the People’s Female — — 12 15 Republic of China, (e) Colombia, (f) Cuba, (g) Total——3472Democratic Republic of Congo, (h) the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, (i) Iran, (j) Iraq, (k) Sussex Male — 29 116 63 Israel, (l) the Palestinian Territories, (m) Pakistan, (n) Female — 34 100 56 the Russian Federation, (o) Saudi Arabia, (p) Somalia, (q) Sudan, (r) Syria, (s) Turkmenistan, (t) Uzbekistan, Total — 63 216 119 (u) Vietnam and (v) Zimbabwe were refused asylum in the UK in each month of (i) 2007, (ii) 2008 and (iii) Thames Valley Male — 8 59 80 2009 to date; and how many in each category (A) are Female — 4 36 51 awaiting a decision on an asylum application and (B) Total — 12 95 131 have been forcibly deported. [300732]

Mr. Woolas: Table 1 placed in the House Library Warwickshire Male — 3 1 24 shows the number of principal applicants refused asylum, Female — — 4 13 humanitarian protection and discretionary leave at initial Total—3537decision in the UK in each month of 2007, 2008 and from January to June for 2009 for the requested nationalities. West Mercia Male 1 4 11 16 Information on asylum applicants of those refused and Female — 18 23 20 awaiting a decision or have been forcibly deported, by nationality, is unavailable and could be obtained only Total 1 22 34 36 by examination of individual case records at disproportionate cost. Table 2 placed in the House West Midlands Male 2 69 83 90 Library shows the number of removals and voluntary Female 4 45 60 45 departures of principal asylum cases, January 2007 to June 2009. Total 6 114 143 135 Information on immigration and asylum are published annually and quarterly. The latest statistics for Q3 2009 West Yorkshire Male 4 32 64 97 will be available on 26 November 2009. Annual statistics Female — 40 41 64 for 2008 and the latest statistics for Q2 2009 are available Total 4 72 105 161 from the Library of the House and from the Home Office Research, Development and Statistics Directorate website at: Wiltshire Male — 5 9 15 Female —399http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- stats.html Total — 8 18 24 Asylum: Democratic Republic of Congo Dyfed-PowysMale—659 Female — 12 4 11 Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for the Total — 18 9 20 Home Department how many allegations his Department has received of ill-treatment of asylum seekers returned Gwent Male — 9 27 37 to the Democratic Republic of Congo in each of the Female — 11 23 34 last four years; and how many investigations his Department Total — 20 50 71 has carried out into such allegations in each such year. [300414]

North Wales Male 1 20 41 29 Mr. Woolas [holding answer 23 November 2009]: The Female — 38 42 34 UK Border Agency does not record the number of Total 1 58 83 63 allegations of ill treatment on return to countries of origin. When specific allegations are made that a returnee to the Democratic Republic of Congo, or any other South Wales Male — 70 67 28 country, has experienced ill-treatment on return from Female — 53 50 25 the UK, then these are investigated. Total — 123 117 53 Borders: Personal Records England and Male 62 1,006 1,695 2,006 Wales Mrs. Laing: To ask the Secretary of State for the Female 51 1,052 1,500 1,577 Home Department what recent assessment he has made Total 113 2,058 3,195 3,583 of the effectiveness of the governance structures for the 1 This PND offence was added to the scheme on 1 November 2004. e-borders programme. [300511] 207W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 208W

Mr. Woolas: The e-Borders governance structures Offences recorded by the police in England and Wales—2006-07 to were assessed in February 2009 following an Office of 2008-09 Government Commerce (OGC) Programme health check. Number of offences Progress was then reviewed in May 2009 for the subsequent Violence (OGC) Gateway 4 review, and then again in September against the person Other offences All offences 2009. The structures are under continuous review to ensure delivery of the e-Borders solution. Middling3 262,749 1,064,265 1,327,014 Total 887,942 3,749,659 4,637,601 Child Migrant Programme 1 Comprises the police force areas of Cheshire, City of London, Cleveland, Greater Manchester, Hertfordshire, Lancashire, Metropolitan Harry Cohen: To ask the Secretary of State for the Police, Merseyside, Northumbria, Nottinghamshire, South Wales, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Surrey, West Midlands, West Yorkshire. Home Department whether children sent to Australia 2 Comprises the police force areas of Cambridgeshire, Cumbria, under the Child Migrant Programme are entitled to Devon and Cornwall, Durham, Dyfed-Powys, Gloucestershire, (a) UK citizenship and (b) unrestricted access to the Lincolnshire, Norfolk, North Wales, North Yorkshire, Suffolk, West UK. [300516] Mercia and Wiltshire. 3 Comprises the police force areas of Avon and Somerset, Bedfordshire, Derbyshire, Dorset, Essex, Gwent, Hampshire, Humberside, Kent, Mr. Woolas: Those sent to Australia from the United Leicestershire, Northamptonshire, Sussex, Thames Valley, Warwickshire. Kingdom under the Child Migrant Scheme are assumed to have been born in the United Kingdom. As such they Departmental Energy will hold British citizenship and have a right of abode in the United Kingdom. This means that they can have Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for the access to British passports and consular services, and Home Department what the (a) energy rating and (b) have the right to enter, live and work in the United energy band of each building occupied by his Kingdom without restriction. Department and its agencies was in each of the last three years. [300521] Crimes of Violence Mr. Woolas: Display energy certificates (DEC) were Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for introduced in 2008. OGC publish central Government the Home Department what estimate he has made of Departments’ display energy certificate (DEC) operational the number of (a) violent and (b) non-violent crimes ratings on a building by building level twice a year. The committed in (i) urban and (ii) rural areas in each of most recent data for the Home Office, published on 31 the last three years; and if he will make a statement. July 2009, which includes DEC ratings up to and including [300290] 28 February 2009 can be seen via this link: http://www.ogc.gov.uk/documents/Pan_Govt_DEC_Feb09.xls Mr. Alan Campbell: The available information relates This information covers one Home Office Building, to offences recorded by the police in England and Wales 16 UK Border properties and eight Identity and Passport and is given in the table. Forces have been classified as Service buildings. urban or rural in accordance with ‘A Classification Of Residential Neighbourhoods’ (ACORN) guidance as Data to October 2008 can be seen via this link: used in Home Office Statistical Bulletin 01/02 entitled http://www.ogc.gov.uk/documents/Pan_Govt_DEC_Oct08.xls ‘Rural Crime in England and Wales’. Data relating to the month ending 30 September In addition to those forces classified as urban or 2009 will be published on 18 December 2009. rural, those forces classified as ‘middling’ have also been included in the table for completeness. Departmental Security Offences recorded by the police in England and Wales—2006-07 to 2008-09 Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the Number of offences Home Department how many security passes his Department has issued in each of the last five years. Violence against the [301556] person Other offences All offences Mr. Woolas: It is not possible to provide figures for 2006-07 each of the past five years because the security pass Urban1 574,526 2,481,410 3,055,936 database is regularly refreshed and does not retain Rural2 153,137 618,554 771,691 details of deleted security passes issued for the core Middling3 302,372 1,221,154 1,523,526 Home Office at 2 Marsham street. There are currently Total 1,030,035 4,321,118 5,351,153 8,551 active security passes for 2 Marsham street. This figure includes permanent core Home Office staff and 2007-08 contractors, temporary passes issued to visitors to the building and other HMG staff, many of whom are not Urban1 523,243 2,260,520 2,783,763 permanently based at Marsham street. Rural2 138,539 567,722 706,261 Middling3 283,792 1,109,482 1,393,274 Entry Clearances: Overseas Students Total 945,574 3,937,724 4,883,298 Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2008-09 Home Department how many student visas were issued Urban1 496,442 2,143,503 2,639,945 to students of each nationality in (a) 1997 and (b) the Rural2 128,751 541,891 670,642 latest year for which figures are available. [300390] 209W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 210W

Mr. Woolas: I refer the hon. Member to the immigration framework within which the Security Service operates. statistics due to be published on 26 November. The hon. All work of the Service is undertaken in accordance Member may also wish to refer to the annual visa with the law, including the European Convention of statistics already published on our Visa Services website Human Rights as incorporated into UK law by the at Human Rights Act 1998. www.ukvisas.gov.uk Authorisations for operational activities are subject Reliable information on student visa applications for to independent oversight by the Intelligence Services, or 1997 is not available. Interception, Commissioner to ensure that any conduct is lawful, and proportionate to what is sought to be Gurkhas achieved by that conduct.

Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Security Service operational guidance is kept under Home Department whether he has made an estimate of regular review. Any change to that guidance is submitted the number of Gurkha ex-servicemen who retired prior to the Home Secretary for approval. to 1 July 1997 likely to settle in Nepal if they were to receive a pension on terms equivalent to those of the armed forces pension scheme; and if he will make a statement. [300423] Local Authorities: Finance Mr. Woolas [holding answer 23 November 2009]: No such estimates have been made on the numbers of those : To ask the Secretary of State for opting to remain in Nepal rather than settle in the the Home Department how much funding his Department United Kingdom if, having retired from the Brigade of provided to local authorities in 2009-10; how much it Gurkhas prior to 1997 they were to receive a pension on expects to provide in 2010-11 by (a) programme, (b) the same terms as those on the armed forces pension funding stream and (c) grant; what the nature and scheme. purpose of such funding was in 2009-10; and what mechanism was used for the allocation of funds between Immobilisation of Vehicles local authorities. [300296]

Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he plans to bring forward Mr. Woolas: The Home Office (including UKBA) proposals for restrictions on the level of fines imposed has provided the following funding to local authorities by private vehicle immobilisation companies. [300742] during 2009-10. Details of the grant stream, and the purpose of each are included. Mr. Alan Campbell: Under proposals contained in the Crime and Security Bill, laid before Parliament on £000 20 November, we plan to amend the Private Security Total spend Industry Act 2001 to introduce a requirement for all Grant stream name Grant stream purpose Budget to date vehicle immobilisation businesses to be licensed by the Security Industry Authority and to adhere to a strict Victims and The role of the champions will 150 0 Witness be to promote the needs of code of practice, when working on private land. The Champions antisocial behaviour victims and code will include restrictions on release fees and will coordinate local services to regulate other aspects of the practices of vehicle ensure victims receive the support and information they immobilisation businesses. want and need. More details of the Bill can be found at the following Private Space The grant stream covers a 3,500 72 link: Violence Fund number of local initiatives to tackle domestic violence. This www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/crimeandsecuritybill/ ranges from providing support to voluntary organisations, Intelligence Services: European Convention on Human holding awareness raising conferences, improving data Rights collection, and starting perpetrator programmes. Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State National Support To strengthen the effectiveness 1, 000 0 Network of local Crime and Disorder for the Home Department what recent steps his Reduction Partnerships Department has taken to ensure compatibility between (CDRPs) and Community the work of those intelligence services for which the safety Partnerships (CSPs)to respond to local concerns and Secretary of State is responsible and the provisions of deliver national priorities. the European Convention on Human Rights. [300384] Young People To contribute towards the non 15,392 0 Substance Misuse ring fenced area based grant. It Mr. Hanson: The Home Secretary is accountable to Partnership Grant acts as an important lever for increasing the priority given to Parliament for the activities of the Security Service. young people and drugs by The Service, unlike the police, has no powers of arrest drugs action teams and local authorities or detention. It has no intrinsic powers of search or Drugs To integrate measures for 88,400 43,558 seizure of property. Its functions are governed by the Intervention directing adult drug-misusing Security Service Act 1989. That Act together with the programme offenders out of crime and into treatment. Payments to drug Intelligence Services Act 1994 and Regulation of action teams Investigatory Powers Act 2000 provides a firm statutory 211W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 212W

£000 £000 Total Total spend spend Grant stream name Grant stream purpose Budget to date Grant stream name Grant stream purpose Budget to date Leaving Care Leaving Care Grants - Funding 17,200 8,600 Place Based To fund a strategic programme 2,500 213 Grants provided to local authorities as Support Fund of support for local Crime and required under statute to (including Disorder Reduction contribute towards costs vigilance grant) Partnerships (CDRPs) or incurred by each authority Community Safety Partnerships (CSPs) in Wales. Funding aims Treasury Invest to Support for the Changing 51 0 to enable partnerships to Save Budget (ISB) Community in Crewe - aims to improve public confidence in the co-ordinate an improved work they do and ultimately response to the needs of the reduce crime. migrant worker population and reduce the additional stress on Safer Stronger To provide opportunities for 61,147 19,135 service providers at a District Communities people to work more closely and County level. Fund (SSCF) with the police and other authorities in their neighbourhoods to create safer The total expenditure to date includes payments made communities. (Resource) up to the end of September 2009. Where no expenditure Safer Stronger To provide opportunities for 18,872 9,436 to date has occurred, this will be due to a variety of Communities people to work more closely reasons, including: Fund (SSCF) with the police and other authorities in their 1. Grant stream recently agreed, therefore no payments have neighbourhoods to create safer yet been made communities. (Capital) 2. Grant recipient has not provided evidence of expenditure incurred, therefore no payments to date occurred

NCJG Taking forward Neighbourhood 4,595 263 The Home Office has not yet finalised expected provision Coordinator Justice activities in 60 areas (by programme, funding stream, or grant) for 2010-11 Allocation Work across the country. This includes to this level of detail. However, the Home Office has Priorities improving the local public offer Allocation ASB in terms of: announced funding for area based grant across the Victims and entire spending review, comprising: Witnesses Allocation £ One dialogue with the public on crime, policing and justice Safer Stronger Communities Fund 61,146,931 (Resource) Services delivering on their public commitments/minimum Young People Substance Misuse 15,392,326 standards e.g. Policing Pledge, Partnership Grant Victims Code, Witness Charter etc The Home Office adopts a variety of mechanisms by Much increased public which to determine the allocation to each local authority. awareness of consequences for offenders, particularly In relation to grants, there are the following mechanisms: Community Payback and Formula based (e.g. Safer Stronger Communities Fund)—each publicising sentencing outcomes local authority has a pre-determined allocation based upon a Access to the Community formula that ensures a commensurate allocation throughout Crime Fighters programme the country Bid based—all local authorities are entitled to bid for funding as per the business plan that they provide. These bids are then OSCT Prevent: To fund research identified by 31 31 considered, and assessed against criteria such as value for Social Research Prevent SBSR Team as essential to the development of a sound money and allocations determined accordingly. evidence base for strategy and Funding pot availability—a specific maximum amount per policy in managing extremism in grant is set, and each local authority may submit a bid within prisons that maximum ceiling. OSCT Protect— To reduce the vulnerability of 5,500 0 Fixed rate basis (e.g. UASC—Unaccompanied Asylum Seekers Crowded Places high to medium-high sites in England and Wales Children)—the grant payable to local authorities is on a fixed rate (e.g. per UASC per night), with many authorities having OSCT Prevent: 15 projects lead by GO’S, local 490 10 different grant rates, according to their numbers of UASC and Identification and authorities and voluntary individual circumstances. Referral organisations in support of -Objectives 2 and 3 prevent objectives 2 and 3 Fixed rate once specified thresholds exceeded (e.g. Leaving Care grant)—paid to local authorities, at a rate of £100 per Local Consortia Enabling Grants L SE, SW&W, 1, 570 785 Enabling Grants MIDS, Sc and NI, NE and NW, week per former UASC aged over 18, after the first 25 cases Yorkshire and Humberside have been discounted. provide support to organisations for the coordination and provision of National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse: advice, support and services for Finance all migrants. Unaccompanied UASC Grants- England, 127,000 66,855 James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Asylum Seeking Scotland & Wales Funding Children (UASC) provided to local authorities as the Home Department how much funding his Department required under statute to has provided to the National Treatment Agency for contribute towards costs incurred by each authority Substance Misuse in 2009-10; and what funding it expects to provide in 2010-11. [300297] 213W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 214W

Mr. Alan Campbell: The Home Office has provided (ASB) such as park wardens, train operators and private total funding allocations of £3,132,000 to the National security guards. These powers enhance the contribution Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse (NTA) for of people in roles that are already concerned with 2009-10. keeping communities safe, and mean that there are The total amount consists of £2,132,000 core funding more people on the streets with powers to tackle and to the NTA for the delivery of the Drug Interventions not tolerate ASB. Programme (DIP), and project management funding of £1,000,000 to support pilot areas within the Drug System Police: Pay Change Pilots programme. Decisions about 2010-11 allocations will be made Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for the later in the year. Home Department how many and what proportion of Source: (a) police officers and (b) civilian police force staff Home Office Accounting System earn more than £50,000 per annum. [300814] Overseas Students Mr. Hanson: This information is not held centrally. Information on remuneration disclosure is provided by Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for the police authorities in their annual statements of accounts. Home Department whether he plans to undertake a review of the accreditation arrangements for institutions wishing to bring international students to the UK. Police: Performance Standards [301083] Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Woolas [holding answer 24 November 2009]: the Home Department what his latest estimate is of the Each of our approved accreditation bodies was initially average (a) target and (b) actual police response time approved for a period of two years. Accreditation UK, to violent crime in (i) urban and (ii) rural areas; and if British Accreditation Council (BAC) and Accreditation he will make a statement. [300289] Service for International Colleges (ASIC) are now due for re-approval. All accreditation bodies are subject to ongoing monitoring to ensure that they meet our Mr. Hanson: The Policing Pledge, which was introduced requirements throughout the period of approval. across all police forces in England and Wales at the end of 2008, sets out the minimum standards of service that We have been reviewing, with Ofsted, our approval the public can expect to receive from the police including criteria. While we finalise the framework against which for response times. Through the Pledge, the police have the three accreditation bodies will be re-assessed for committed to aim to answer 999 calls within 10 seconds, approval, UKBA continues to work with each of its deploying to emergencies immediately, giving an estimated approved accreditation bodies to ensure standards are time of arrival and reaching the incident as safely and maintained. as quickly as possible. In urban areas, they aim to arrive Police within 15 minutes and in rural areas within 20 minutes. The Home Office does not collect data centrally on Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for the average response times to specific crime types. However, Home Department what recent consideration he has Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary recently given to the use of private policing services by local published their report on the current standard of pledge authorities and residents. [300320] delivery across all police forces. The report notes that ″in responding to calls, forces generally achieve good performance Mr. Hanson: There are no official private policing but, in some very rural areas, responding in 20 minutes is challenging″. services. Communities should have the confidence that It is for individual police forces and authorities to the police will be there for them when they need it. ensure delivery of the Policing Pledge in their area. The Public confidence that the police and local council are Government will hold forces to account for progress dealing with the crime and antisocial behaviour that through the single top-down target we have set them to matters locally is improving (from 45 per cent in March improve public confidence that crime and anti-social 2008 to 50 per cent in the latest figures to June 2009). behaviour are being tackled locally, and in the light of In December 2008 we introduced the Policing Pledge inspection work by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of in England and Wales which sets out the minimum Constabulary. standards of service that the public can expect to receive from the police including for response times, visibility, Police: Public Order Units and access. We have also invested heavily to ensure that all neighbourhoods now have a dedicated and named Neighbourhood Policing team. David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for the It is up to the public and local authorities to decide if Home Department which police forces have public they wish to spend money on private security. Private order units or branches; and how many staff are security guards have no more powers than any other working in each such unit or branch. [300230] citizen except when they are accredited under Community Safety Accreditation Schemes (CSAS). CSAS is a scheme Mr. Hanson: All police forces in England and Wales which allows Chief Officers to designate limited powers have a resource to deal with incidents involving public to employees of organisations which contribute towards order. The staffing of such units would be the responsibility community safety and tackling antisocial behaviour of the chief officer concerned for each force. 215W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 216W

Police: Sussex The figures quoted are not provided under National Statistics protocols and have been derived from local Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the management information and are therefore provisional Home Department how many (a) police officers and and subject to change. (b) police community support officers there were in Sussex in each of the last five years. [301272] Student Visitors Mr. Hanson: The available data are provided in the table. Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for the This and other related data are published annually as Home Department what criteria students who are part of the annual Police Service Strength Home Office travelling to the UK to study for a period of less than Statistical Bulletin. The latest bulletin can be found at: 26 weeks must meet to be permitted to enter the UK http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/policeorg1.html under the student visitor route as an alternative to and bulletins for this and previous years are deposited entering under Tier 4 of the points-based immigration in the Library of the House. system. [301661] Police officer and PCSO strength1 in Sussex, as at 31 March, 2005 to 2009 Mr. Woolas: The criteria for those wishing to seek Full-time equivalent entry as a student visitor are set out in paragraph 56K Police officer PCSO of the Immigration Rules and paragraph 2.14 of the Immigration Directorate Instructions. This category allows 2009 3,196 399 those who wish to come to the United Kingdom as a 2008 3,075 372 visitor to undertake a short period of study which will 2007 3,113 352 be completed within the period of their leave. In order 2006 3,127 257 to qualify student visitors must be coming to an institution 2005 3,094 228 that is either the holder of a sponsor licence for Tier 4 of 1 Figures include police officers and PCSOs on career break or the points based system or accredited by a UKBA maternity/paternity leave. approved accreditation body. Those attending an overseas higher education institution that offer part of their Safer Schools Partnerships programmes in the United Kingdom may also seek entry under this route providing the overseas institution James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for hold their own national accreditation and offer programmes the Home Department what recent estimate he has that are of an equivalent level to a United Kingdom made of the number of safer schools partnerships; and degree. how many such partnerships are structured on the Student visitors are not permitted to undertake paid basis of a full-time officer based within a secondary or unpaid work placements as part of the course, nor school or college. [300298] are they permitted to take part-time employment. Six months is the maximum time a student visitor may stay Mr. Alan Campbell: A survey of the number of Safer in the United Kingdom and applications for either leave School Partnerships (SSPs) in England was carried out to enter or remain beyond that period would fall to be this summer following publication of guidance in May refused. 2009 which tightened the definition of an SSP. The results of this survey are currently being verified by the Association of Chief Police Officers and therefore are Students Visas not yet available. Information on how many partnerships are structured on the basis of a full-time officer is not collected centrally. Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many student visa applications Sponsor Register have been (a) granted and (b) refused in Pakistan since the introduction of the Tier 4 immigration rules; and what the average time from submission of Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for the application to decision has been in each month since Home Department which institutions (a) have had an the rules were introduced. [301085] application to join the sponsor register refused and (b) have been removed from the register of licensed sponsors since 31 March 2009. [301084] Mr. Woolas [holding answer 24 November 2009]: As of 30 September, the number of student visa applications Mr. Woolas [holding answer 24 November 2009]: lodged in Pakistan under Tier 4 of the Points Based This question cannot be answered due to the commercial System that had been (a) successful and (b) refused sensitivity of the information requested. were 5,906 and 3,517, respectively. The number of institutions that have had an application Information about the performance of our visa to join the sponsor register refused between 31 March application centres against target visa application processing 2009 and 23 November 2009 is 1,080. times in each quarter is available on our Visa Services The number of sponsors removed from the sponsor website: register between 31 March 2009 and 23 November 2009 www.ukvisas.gov.uk is 30. Processing times in Islamabad for Tier 4 applications Figures are rounded to nearest five. has been as follows: 217W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 218W

Processing time— tier four application: Islamabad Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for the Percentage Home Department with reference to the letter of 19 15 days 30 days October 2009 from the Chief Executive of the UK Border Agency to the Home Affairs Select Committee, April to June 2009 58 95 what estimate has been made of the number of July to September 92 93 2009 non-archived non-asylum cases in respect of which an application has been dealt with but where there is no formal record of an individual having left the country; Terrorism Act 2000 what criteria are used in the archiving of such files; and if he will make a statement. [300412] Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr. Woolas: Lin Homer, the chief executive of the Home Department how many people have been (a) UK Border Agency, will update the Home Affairs Select stopped, (b) detained and (c) arrested under Schedule Committee in January 2010 with further information 7 (Port and Border Controls) to the Terrorism Act 2000 on the progress on the 40,000 older, archived non-asylum since 2004; and how many of those were subsequently files, which are files and not people, referred to in the convicted of a terrorist offence. [301036] last update.

Mr. Hanson: The use of Schedule 7 powers of Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for the examination is an important tool in countering terrorism Home Department how many raids UK Border and those who would seek to do harm to the UK and its Agency officials conducted in each region in 2008. interests. Terrorists often need to travel across borders [300990] to plan, prepare and initiate their acts and these powers are essential in identifying those individuals. Mr. Woolas: In 2008, the UK Border Agency carried out the following numbers of enforcement operations in Examinations for longer than one hour are recorded each region: centrally; there were over 10,400 examinations in the period between 1 January 2004 and 30 September 2009. Number Of these 1,110 persons were detained under the examining officer powers in Schedule 7 and 8 for the London and South East 6,968 same period. Midlands and East of England 2,220 North East, Yorkshire and 2,015 There were 99 arrests of persons examined under Humberside Schedule 7 during this period for terrorism related North West 1,260 offences, of which 17 were initially charged in relation Scotland and Northern Ireland 948 to offences under the Terrorism Act 2000 and 31 were Wales and South West 1,300 charged with other terrorist related offences. Total 14,711 Of those charges there were 43 convictions. Some individuals will have been charged with more than one These figures do not constitute part of National offence or had a charge varied later on advice from the Statistics as they are based on internal management Crown Prosecution Service. information. The information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols and should The powers contained in Schedule 7 are kept under be treated as provisional and subject to change. scrutiny by the noble Lord Carlile of Berriew, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. Lord Carlile Warehouse Parties has commented and made recommendations as to the use of these powers but has consistently found the Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for the powers to be necessary and proportionate. Home Department what estimate he has made of the number of illegal raves which have taken place in the Milton Keynes local authority area in each of the last UK Border Agency five years; and how many (a) crimes and (b) accidents arising from such events were reported in that period. Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for the [300717] Home Department with reference to paragraph 27 of the letter of 19 October 2009 from the Chief Executive Mr. Alan Campbell: Thames Valley police have informed of the UK Border Agency to the Home Affairs me that there have been three events which they classified Committee, which areas of business have been asked to as illegal raves over the last four years and that no review their files; what advice has been given to crimes were reported or investigated regarding offences businesses in each such area on such reviews; in how of damage or assault at these events. Several arrests many cases in each area of business no record has been were made for drugs related offences. The police do not found of an individual having left the country in the hold information on accidents. circumstances set out in the letter; and what assessment he has made of the findings of such reviews. [300411] WOMEN AND EQUALITY Mr. Woolas: Lin Homer, chief executive of the UK Equalities and Human Rights Commission Border Agency, will update the Home Affairs Select Committee in January 2010 with further information Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for Women on the progress on the 40,000 older, archived non-asylum and Equality what recent discussions she has had with files referred to in the last update. the Equalities and Human Rights Commission 219W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 220W concerning transparency in respect of (a) opening the households in North East Milton Keynes constituency Commission’s board meetings to the public and (b) a child under the age of 18 years fulfils the role of a publication of the Commissioners’ register of interests; carer for a disabled parent. [300716] and if she will make a statement. [301005] : Precise local and national data on : Transparency and openness are matters the number of children under the age of 18 years caring of great importance to the Equality and Human Rights for a disabled parent is not collected centrally. Commission Board. This reflected in their new Governance Framework adopted earlier this year. Commissioners have already agreed to consider at their board meeting Class Sizes in December proposals for increasing its accessibility to the public and for making its register of interests publicly available. Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what the average class size of (a) primary and (b) secondary schools in (i) CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES Lewes constituency, (ii) Sussex and (iii) England and Children: Carers Wales was in each year since 1997. [301282]

Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Ms Diana R. Johnson: The information available is Children, Schools and Families in how many shown in the table.

Maintained primary and state funded secondary1 schools—Classes as taught2, 3—Years: position in January in each year coverage—England 1998 2001 2005 2009

Maintained primary schools: Lewes Average class size 27.9 27.7 26.0 26.9 Total number of classes 215 214 215 200 Total number of pupils 6,000 5,920 5,590 5,380

East Sussex Average class size 28.3 28.2 27.6 27.2 Total number of classes 1,260 1,250 1,236 1,184 Total number of pupils 35,660 35,240 34,160 32,200

England Average class size 27.7 26.7 26.2 26.2 Total number of classes 146,425 150,583 146,860 142,920 Total number of pupils 4,054,800 4,014,110 3,851,810 3,746,270

All state funded secondary schools: Lewes Average class size 21.6 22.9 23.2 23.5 Total number of classes 202 226 205 183 Total number of pupils 4,360 5,170 4,760 4,300

East Sussex Average class size 21.4 22.3 21.8 21.6 Total number of classes 1,103 1,178 1,243 1,202 Total number of pupils 23,610 26,250 27,110 25,960

England Average class size 21.7 22.0 21.6 20.6 Total number of classes 131,597 138,021 144,940 148,410 Total number of pupils 2,859,620 3,038,760 3,137,030 3,064,190 1 Includes CTCs and Academies. 2 One teacher classes as taught during a single selected period in each school on the day of the census in January. 3. Includes middle schools as deemed. Source: School Census

Departmental Food that was produced in the UK in the latest period for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement. [300187]

Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Ms Diana R. Johnson: Since the start of the current Children, Schools and Families what estimate he has contract for provision on 1 April 2009 (and thus from made of the proportion of (a) lamb, (b) beef, (c) when figures are available) the proportions of UK chicken, (d) pork, (e) turkey, (f) other meats, (g) production of the categories in question up to 31 October vegetables and (h) fruit procured by his Department 2009 are: 221W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 222W

Schools: Sports Percentage (a) Lamb 34.02 Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) Beef 86.44 Children, Schools and Families which sport has the (c) Chicken 75.29 highest rate of participation for females in schools. (d) Pork 82.53 [300772] (e) Turkey 100.00 (f) Other meats 18.66 Mr. : The Department’s annual PE and (g) Fresh fruit and vegetables 40.60 Sport Survey collects data from maintained schools in 1 Including sausages and burgers. England and relate to the range and type of sporting It is not possible to provide separate figures for fruit activities that schools provide for their pupils. However, and vegetables. at the moment, it does not break this down by pupils’ gender. We are proposing to make changes to the survey from next year which will enable us to show this information Departmental Plants broken down by gender.

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services: Haringey Children, Schools and Families how much has been spent by his Department on (a) cut flowers and (b) Lynne Featherstone: To ask the Secretary of State for pot plants since February 2009. [301000] Children, Schools and Families what steps he has taken Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department for Children, in response to the Ofsted joint area review of Haringey Schools and Families has spent a total of £5,265 on council’s children’s services held in July 2009; and if he potted plants since February 2009. There has been nil will make a statement. [300995] expenditure on cut flowers during this period. Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 23 November 2009]: In June 2009 Ofsted carried out a further inspection of Education: Assessments Haringey’s safeguarding services to assess progress following the joint area review (JAR) report of December 2008. Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Ofsted’s subsequent report made clear that the leadership Schools and Families which qualifications have been and management team in Haringey had made progress accredited for the 2009-10 academic year; if he will in a number of important areas, but it highlighted estimate for each qualification the proportion of the issues relating to front line practice that needed prioritising. final mark which is to be based on teacher assessment; The Secretary of State met with the leadership of the and if he will make a statement. [300700] council to discuss the report and subsequently wrote to the council on 3 July. In his letter to the council, he Mr. Coaker: The National Database of Accredited made clear that Haringey must prioritise improving Qualifications (NDAQ) lists all currently accredited standards of front-line practice and supervision and qualifications from entry level to level 8. As of 19 that Haringey’s plans must be kept under vigilant review November 2009, 9,748 qualifications are listed. Further with progress accelerated to keep children safe. He details of these qualifications can be found online: explained that Peter Lewis’ monthly reports, alongside http://www.accreditedqualifications.org.uk/index.asp the rigorous monitoring the Department has put in The Section 96 page of the DCSF website place and the independent scrutiny of the LSCB, would be used to ensure that all partners keep focused on the http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/section96 priorities identified in Ofsted’s report. He has asked provides a link to the list of qualifications the Secretary Ofsted to conduct a further progress inspection before of State has approved to be delivered in maintained the end of January 2010, at which point he will decide schools, and for under 19-year olds in further and whether any further action is needed to keep children work-based education and training. Approximately 7,500 safe in Haringey. qualifications are currently listed. The methods of assessment vary according to the qualification and could Teachers: Pay only be provided for each qualification at disproportionate cost. Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much was paid in History: Secondary Education salary and wage costs for teachers and teaching staff in maintained schools in the last 12 months; and what Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, estimate he has made of the proportion paid to such Schools and Families what estimate he has made of the staff who earn more than £50,000 per annum. [300843] proportion of students in year nine who were not taught history in that year in (a) 2005, (b) 2008 and Mr. Coaker: The available information on how much (c) the latest period for which figures are available; and was paid in salary and wage costs for teachers and if he will make a statement. [300696] teaching staff in maintained schools in 2007-08 for England was £17,521,117,000. The Department estimates Ms Diana R. Johnson: History is a statutory subject that there were approximately 28,000 teachers earning for all pupils to the end of key stage 3, normally school more than £50,000 per annum in England costing in year nine. We do not have an estimate of the proportion total £1,665,021,000. This makes up 9.5 per cent. of the of students in year nine not taught history. total spend on teaching staff. 223W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 224W

Notes: Mr. : The Department for 1. The source of the salary information is the Database of International Development (DFID) does not plan to Teacher Records (DTR) and is provisional. host any Christmas parties in 2009. 2. Overall teacher numbers from the Annual Survey of Teachers in Service and Teacher Vacancies, 618g were apportioned by the Departmental Air Travel information from the DTR to provide the estimate of the numbers of teachers receiving these salaries and the salaries given by multiplying this by the average salary over £50,000 from the Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for DTR. International Development how many domestic flights 3. The total spend on teaching staff is taken from the Section 52 within Great Britain officials from his Department Outturn statements 2007-08. took in an official capacity in 2008-09; and at what cost 4. It includes teachers employed directly by the school; including to the public purse such flights were taken. [300535] supernumerary/peripatetic teachers on short-term contracts and covers expenditure on salaries and wages consisting of gross pay, Mr. Douglas Alexander: This information cannot be including bonus and allowances, maternity pay and the employer’s provided without incurring disproportionate costs. contributions to national insurance and superannuation plus threshold payments and other payments relating to teacher pay All travel by civil servants at the Department for reforms. International Development (DFID) is undertaken in accordance with the guidelines set out in the “Civil 5. These figures are in cash and rounded to nearest £1,000. Service Management Code” and staff handbooks.

Departmental Assets INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assets of his Department are planned Burundi: Overseas Aid to be sold in each year from 2009-10 to 2013-14; what the (a) description and (b) book value of each such Mr. Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for asset is; what the expected revenue from each such sale International Development what level of support, and is; and if he will make a statement. [300204] in which sectors, his Department intends to provide to Burundi in the next five years; and if he will make a Mr. Douglas Alexander: The Department for statement. [300226] International Development (DFID) has no plans at present to sell any of its property, whether in the UK or Mr. Thomas: The Department for International overseas between 2009-10 and 2013-14. Development (DFID) is currently providing £10 million DFID may, however, dispose of assets such as vehicles a year to Burundi. Our current strategy for support to or equipment as these reach the end of their useful lives. the country covers the period from 2008 to 2011. Because In such cases, disposals will be immaterial (substantially Burundi is still recovering from 13 years of conflict, written down against book value) and carried out in DFID support is focused on helping the country rebuild line with DFID procedures. We are unable to provide its health, education and justice systems. The budget budgeted figures without incurring disproportionate allocation is: cost, as this information is not held centrally. £6 million for the social sectors including £4 million for essential medicine. DFID is also supporting our partners in building schools, providing free textbooks and improving the standard Departmental Cost Effectiveness of secondary education. £2 million for justice to build accountable systems for public Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for International financial management and prepare for free and fair elections in Development what efficiency savings projects his 2010. This includes providing legal aid to vulnerable citizens Department put in place under the Operational Efficiency and raising awareness about governance issues. Programme; on what date each such project was initiated; £2 million for humanitarian support to care for returning how much each such project was expected to contribute refugees, orphans and vulnerable children. to departmental savings; how much had been saved In 2010 DFID will review this and future support to through each such project on the latest date for which the country with the Government of Burundi and other figures are available; and if he will make a statement. partners. Future support will also be made in light of [300932] the broader UK Government Corporate Spending Review and planning for the period 2011 to 2013. Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Development (DFID) has agreed to deliver savings in Christmas administrative costs of £4 million in 2008-09, £8 million in 2009-10 and £12 million in 2010-11, including through Operational Efficiency Programme (OEP) related projects. Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for This commitment is part of DFID’s overall value for International Development how many Christmas money (VFM) programme. parties his Department plans to host in 2009; what has been budgeted for each such reception; what estimate Delivery against 2008-09 targets was reported in DFID’s he has made of the proportion of (a) lamb, (b) beef, 2009 annual report. The report is available at: (c) chicken, (d) pork, (e) turkey, (f) other meats, (g) http://www.dfid.gov.uk/About-DFID/Finance-and- vegetables, (h) fruit and (i) alcohol to be served at performance/Annual-report/Annual-Report-2009/ each such function which is produced in the UK; and if A further progress report will be included in the he will make a statement. [300871] forthcoming autumn performance report. 225W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 226W

DFID is planning further efficiency savings in areas Departmental Pay identified by the OEP, which will contribute to the £9 billion to be delivered across Government in the next spending review period. John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what (a) bonuses and (b) incentives have been paid to (i) consultants and (ii) Departmental Food contractors engaged by his Department in each of the last three years. [300625]

Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Douglas Alexander: The Department for International Development what estimate he has made International Development (DFID) currently has one of the proportion of (a) lamb, (b) beef, (c) chicken, contract let centrally that includes a provision for bonuses. (d) pork, (e) turkey, (f) other meats, (g) vegetables DFID’s contract for security guarding and reception and (h) fruit procured by his Department that was services with ISS Pegasus includes a provision for team produced in the UK in the latest period for which based performance incentives for their 13 staff. £500 has figures are available; and if he will make a statement. been paid to each staff member in each of the last two [300184] years.

Mr. Michael Foster: A second report on the proportion John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for of domestically produced food used by Government International Development what (a) bonuses and Departments and also supplied to hospitals and prisons (b) incentives have been paid to (i) consultants and under contracts negotiated by NHS Supply Chain and (ii) contractors engaged by executive agencies and non- HM Prison Service was published in November 2008, departmental public bodies for which his Department is covering the year from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008. responsible in each of the last three years. [300626] This report and the first one covering the previous year can be found at: Mr. Michael Foster: No bonuses or incentives have http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/policy/publicsectorfood/ been paid to such consultants or contractors over the awareness.htm last three years. The report gives details of the proportion of individual meat, fruit and vegetable categories purchased. Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for International The report indicates that overall proportion of Development how many staff in his Department received domestically produced food procured by the Department bonus payments in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09; what for International Development (DFID) in 2007-08 was proportion of the total work force they represented; 55 per cent. DFID actively encourages the provision of what the total amount of bonuses paid was; what the fair trade or other ethically trading standards produced largest single payment was; and if he will make a items which will normally be imported. statement. [300894] DEFRA intends to publish the report covering the year from 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2009 shortly. Mr. Douglas Alexander: Department for International Development (DFID) senior civil service (SCS) members are eligible for a non-consolidated performance award. Departmental Legal Costs Awards are intended to reward delivery of personal business objectives during the reporting year or other short-term personal contributions to wider organisational Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for objectives. In considering SCS members for an award, International Development what the (a) cost and (b) line managers are asked to take into account: purpose of legal representation and advice sought by performance against agreed priority business objectives or (i) his Department and (ii) its agencies was in each year targets since May 1997. [300329] total delivery record over the year relative stretch (ie the challenge of the job compared to that of Mr. Douglas Alexander: The Department for others) International Development uses a number of sources of response to unforeseen events that affected the performance legal expertise in both the UK and overseas. Records agreement. are available for full expenditure only from 2003-04. Awards are funded within existing pay bill controls, DFID does not maintain central records of the purpose have to be re-earned each year against the pre-determined of each piece of legal representation and advice. criteria above and, as such, do not add to future pay bill Expenditure costs. Cost (£) The annual size of the non-consolidated performance 2003-04 855,996 pay pot for SCS is based on recommendations by the 2004-05 721,927 independent Senior Salaries Review Body (SSRB). 2005-06 650,615 The following table contains, for the last two financial 2006-07 522,004 years: (i) the number of SCS who received an award; 2007-08 670,057 (ii) the percentage of all SCS who received an award; 2008-09 696,323 (iii) the largest single payment; and (iv) the total value of awards made. 227W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 228W

Financial year1 £ 2008-09 2009-10 Average (median) Financial year1 award Highest single award Number of SCS who 71 68 received an award 2005-06 3,750 5,500 Percentage of total SCS 73.9 70.1 2006-07 4,500 8,000 who received an award 2007-08 5,750 12,500 Largest single award (£) 22,700 15,000 2008-09 6,350 22,700 Total SCS awards (£) 641,510 634,150 2009-10 7,357 15,000 1 Payments made are for the financial year indicated but relate to performance Staff in grades below the SCS (HCS) are eligible for a achieved in the previous reporting year. non-consolidated performance award. Awards are intended Developing Countries: Secondary Education to reward both the delivery of personal business objectives during the reporting year and demonstration of DFID’s values. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for The following table contains, for the last two financial International Development what recent assessment he years: (i) the number of HCS who received an award; has made of the likely effects on the economies of his (ii) the percentage of all HCS who received an award; Department’s partner countries of their achievement of (iii) the largest single payment; and (iv) the total value equal access for girls to secondary education. [301041] of awards made. Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Financial year1 Development (DFID) produced an analysis of the role 2008-092 2009-10 of skills in economic growth in 2008. This drew attention to the gender differences in the complex relationship Number of HCS who 0 1,312 received an award between levels of education and skills and economic Percentage of total HCS 0 85.0 growth. More evidence at a country level is needed in who received an award this area, but this initial work suggested that the rates of Largest single award (£) 0 750 return for higher levels of female education were particularly Total HCS awards (£) 0 742,515 significant to economic growth. The World Bank found 1 Payments made are for the financial year indicated but relate to performance that every 1 per cent. increase in the level of women’s achieved in the previous reporting year. education generates an additional 3 per cent. in economic 2 DFID’s reward arrangements did not allow for the payment of any performance related awards in the 2008-09 financial year to staff below the growth. Importantly, failure to achieve gender parity at senior civil service. post-primary levels could be a bottle neck in the growth of the economies of our partner countries. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for DFID currently funds a five-year research programme International Development what the (a) average and co-ordinated by the University of Cambridge worth (b) highest non-consolidated performance-related £2.5 million which is currently undertaking analysis of payment was in cash terms for a senior civil servant in the different rates of return on various levels of education his Department in each of the last five years. [301598] which includes looking at gender differences.

Mr. Douglas Alexander: Department for International Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Development (DFID) senior civil service (SCS) members International Development what steps his Department are eligible for a non-consolidated performance award. is taking to meet the target of ensuring that girls have Awards are intended to reward delivery of personal equal access to secondary education in all his business objectives during the reporting year or other Department’s partner countries by 2015. [301042] short-term personal contributions to wider organisational objectives. In considering SCS members for an award, Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International line managers are asked to take into account: Development (DFID) is committed to achieving the performance against agreed priority business objectives or millennium development goals (MDGs) for universal targets; primary education and gender parity by 2015. DFID is total delivery record over the year spending at least £8.5 billion between 2006 and 2015 in relative stretch (ie the challenge of the job compared to that of support of education in developing countries. Through others) this long-term commitment we are supporting poor response to unforeseen events that affected the performance countries to invest in quality basic education, including agreement lower secondary, to ensure that all girls and boys attain the fundamental skills they need to participate in social Awards are funded within existing pay bill controls, and economic life. have to be re-earned each year against the pre-determined criteria above and, as such, do not add to future pay bill For example, DFID is currently helping the Government costs. of India to prepare its plans for expanding enrolments at secondary education from 53 per cent. to 70 per cent. The annual size of the non-consolidated performance over the next three years. The majority of these gains in pay pot is based on recommendations by the independent enrolment will be girls. A raft of interventions are Senior Salaries Review Body (SSRB). proposed for achieving this, including girls’ scholarships The table shows the average (median) award and the and bursaries, free uniforms, textbooks and bicycles for highest single award in each of the last five financial girls as well as free hostels and residential schools for years. the poorest girls. Attention to equity, particularly in 229W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 230W terms of eliminating gender disparities is now a key by three principles: levels of Gross National Income part of DFID policy dialogue on and support for the (GNI) per person; population size; and confidence on development of secondary education in India. whether the aid resources will be used effectively. As remittances are part of the GNI calculation, they are Global Fund to Fight AIDS Tuberculosis and Malaria captured in decisions about the allocation of DFID’s aid. Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development whether he has made a Zimbabwe: Overseas Aid recent assessment of the level of integration between the HIV/AIDS and sexual and reproductive health and Mr. Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for rights aspects of programmes funded by the Global International Development what recent assessment he Fund to Fight AIDS, TB and malaria to which his has made of the likely effectiveness of his Department’s Department contributes. [301031] proposed activities in Zimbabwe; and if he will make a statement. [300540] Mr. Michael Foster: The Global Fund has recently been subject to a rigorous five year independent evaluation Mr. Thomas: The Department for International including a study on health impact. The Department Development (DFID) will provide £60 million in for International Development has engaged with this development aid to support Zimbabwe this financial evaluation exercise and has taken note of its assessment year which will be used to; of the level of integration between the HIV/AIDS and fight HIV by delivering Anti-Retroviral Treatment to 58,000 sexual and reproductive health and rights aspects of people programmes funded by the Global Fund. improve access to clean water and sanitation for over 2 million people The evaluation contained a review of the HIV/AIDS establish 5,000 community health groups to help rural populations portfolio including access to HIV testing, counselling, prepare for and respond to future disease epidemics prevention of mother-child transmission (PMTCT), and provide essential medicines to approximately 1,300 primary preventative measures (condom distribution and education care clinics and rural hospitals materials). A key recommendation is to strengthen provide 10,000 urban poor and vulnerable households with prevention programmes. The study can be accessed on: 350 metric tonnes of food every month and 2,000 rural and www.theglobalfund.org urban poor households with cash transfers every month provide textbooks to 5,300 primary schools Landmines All our assistance is provided through trusted partners, including the United Nations and non-governmental Mr. Ancram: To ask the Secretary of State for organisations. We do not pass funds directly to the International Development what proportion of mine Government of Zimbabwe or through government financial clearing contracts let by his Department have been systems, (including through the Reserve Bank). granted to (a) The Halo Trust and (b) the Mines Advisory Group in the last two years; and in which locations. [300242] BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Business: EU Grants and Loans Development (DFID) publishes details of all contracts let on the DFID website: Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Working-with-DFID/Procurement/ Department for Business, Innovation and Skills whether Contracts-let/ (a) the Secretary of State, (b) he and other Ministers in his Department and (c) officials of his Department (i) Remittances corresponded with, (ii) telephoned and (c) met officials of EU institutions between April 2008 and April 2009 Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State regarding proposals to regulate the European alternative for International Development which countries in investment fund management industry. [301587] receipt of development aid from his Department have experienced a reduction in the (a) number and (b) : The proposal for a directive on alternative monetary value of migrant remittances in the last three investment fund managers is the policy responsibility of years; and what steps his Department takes to establish the Treasury. The Government are fully engaged in the effects of such remittances on (i) the economy of negotiations with the European Union institutions on the recipient country and (ii) the pattern of his this and other key issues. Department’s distribution of development aid. [300386] Christmas

Mr. Thomas: Based on the most recent World Bank Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Minister of State, data for the period 2006-08, no countries receiving Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how developmental aid from the Department for International many Christmas parties his Department plans to host Development (DFID) have experienced a reduction in in 2009; what has been budgeted for each such the number or monetary value of migrant remittances reception; what estimate he has made of the proportion in the last three years. We will continue to monitor this of (a) lamb, (b) beef, (c) chicken, (d) pork, (e) as new data becomes available. turkey, (f) other meats, (g) vegetables, (h) fruit and DFID Country Offices monitor remittance flows as (i) alcohol to be served at each such function which is part of their routine macroeconomic surveillance. Decisions produced in the UK; and if he will make a statement. on where UK bilateral aid is spent are initially guided [300881] 231W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 232W

Mr. McFadden: This Department is not planning to Encouraging communication: women and employers can make host any Christmas parties in 2009. reasonable contact during maternity leave; keeping in touch days introduced so women and employers can agree that Internal Christmas parties for officials within the women will work up to 10 day during maternity leave without Department will be funded by the staff themselves. losing any pay or ending her leave. Guidance: Pregnancy and Work leaflet set out key information Company Liquidations for women and employers; online tools help women and employers understand rights/responsibilities. John Penrose: To ask the Minister of State, Department Support for employers: notice period for women changing for Business, Innovation and Skills how many company plans for return from maternity leave extended from four to liquidations there were in each (a) constituency and eight weeks; administration of SMP, SAP and SPP simplified. (b) region in (i) the fourth quarter of 2008 and (ii) each 2007 quarter since. [301771] Right to request flexible working: extended to carers of certain adults from April 2007. Ian Lucas: Official statistics covering corporate 2008 insolvencies are not currently available at sub-national Contractual benefits during maternity leave: entitlement to level within England and Wales. receive contractual benefits extended so that mothers entitled to non-paid rights or other work-related benefits throughout Conditions of Employment the 26 weeks of additional maternity leave. 2009 Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister of State, Department Right to request flexible working: extended to those with for Business, Innovation and Skills what family-friendly parental responsibility of children aged 16 and under. working policies his Department and its predecessors have implemented in each of the last 10 years. [300408] Departmental Food

Mr. McFadden: The information is as follows: Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Minister of State, 1999 Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Parental leave: New right introduced. Parents with one year’s estimate he has made of the proportion of (a) lamb, continuous service entitled to 13 weeks’ unpaid leave up to the (b) beef, (c) chicken, (d) pork, (e) turkey, (f) other child’s fifth birthday for children born or placed for adoption meats, (g) vegetables and (h) fruit procured by his on or after 15 December 1999. Department that was produced in the UK in the latest Time off for dependants: all employees entitled to a reasonable period for which figures are available; and if he will amount of unpaid time off work to deal with certain emergencies make a statement. [300189] involving a dependant. 2000 Mr. McFadden: A second report on the proportion of Maternity leave: Maternity leave extended so that all employed domestically produced food used by Government women became entitled to 18 weeks’ ordinary maternity leave. Departments and also supplied to hospitals and prisons Women with one year’s service entitled to additional maternity under contracts negotiated by NHS Supply Chain and leave up to 29 weeks after baby’s birth. Benefited women whose HM Prison Service was published in November 2008, babies were due on or after 30 April 2000. covering the year from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008. Maternity pay: Maternity allowance extended to women earning This report and the first one covering the previous year £30 per week. can be found at: 2001 http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/policy/publicsectorfood/ Parental leave: right extended to parents of all children under awareness.htm five on 15 December 1999; period of parental leave extended to The report gives details of the proportion of individual 18 weeks for parents of disabled children. meat, fruit and vegetable categories purchased. 2003 Maternity leave: ordinary maternity leave extended to 26 weeks. Departmental Manpower Additional maternity leave extended to 26 weeks following on from ordinary maternity leave. Qualifying service for additional maternity leave reduced to 26 weeks. Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, Maternity pay: Statutory maternity pay and maternity allowance Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how extended to 26 weeks. many (a) speechwriters, (b) press officers and (c) Paternity leave: fathers/partners of pregnant women entitled to secretaries are assigned to work for each other Minister two weeks leave with statutory paternity pay at the same rate as in his Department. [301588] statutory maternity pay. Adoption leave: adopters entitled to 52 weeks’ leave with Mr. McFadden: My noble Friend the Secretary of statutory adoption pay at the same rate as statutory maternity State has one speechwriter, and a Strategic Adviser who pay. also works on speeches. The remaining nine Ministers Right to request flexible working: parents with caring responsibilities are assisted by four speechwriters. for children under six (or 18, if disabled) entitled to request One press officer is specifically assigned to work for flexible working pattern from employers. the Secretary of State. Other press officers look after 2006 policy areas which are within ministerial portfolio areas Maternity leave: Qualifying service for additional maternity but are not assigned to individual Ministers. The Secretary leave removed. of State has a Principal Private Secretary, five Private Pay: Payment period of statutory maternity pay, statutory Secretaries and two Diary Secretaries. Other Ministers adoption pay and maternity allowance extended to 39 weeks. each have a Private Secretary, a Diary Secretary (based 233W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 234W in BIS or in the other Government Department in Departmental Pay which the Minister jointly works) and one or more Assistant Private Secretaries depending on their portfolios. Dr. Cable: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what proportion of staff in his Department received bonus Departmental Official Cars payments in 2008-09; what the total amount of bonuses paid was; what the largest single payment was; and if he will make a statement. [301011] Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Mr. McFadden: BIS was formed through a MOG estimate he has made of the cost to his Department of change that occurred in June. The Department was providing official cars for the use of (a) Ministers and created by merging Department for Business Enterprise (b) officials in the last 12 months. [301178] and Regulatory Reform (BERR) and the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills (DIUS). This Mr. McFadden: I refer the hon. Member to the written means that BIS in its current form did not exist in ministerial statement made by my hon. Friend the 2008-09 and therefore did not make any bonus payments Parliamentary under Secretary of State for Transport, as BIS. the hon. Member for Gillingham, (Paul Clark) on The two Departments that were merged to create BIS 16 July, Official Report, column 80WS. spent the following:

The proportion No. of people The proportion The total amount No. of people that of people that that received of people that of money spent by The largest single received an Annual received an an ″In year″ received an ″In the department on payment issued by Performance bonus Annual Bonus in bonus in year″ bonus in bonuses in the department in Department in 2008-09 2008-09 (%) 2008-09 2008-09 (%) 2008-09 (£) 2008-09 (£)

BERR 1,025 35 1,218 42 2,827,223 16,500 DIUS 216 24 201 22 535,006 20,000 Notes: 1. In year reward schemes include special bonuses and non pay rewards that are awarded for excellent performance in particularly demanding tasks or situations. Staff in receipt of an in year performance bonus may also have received an annual performance award. 2. Annual Performance Awards paid to Highly Successful performers as part of the annual pay award.

Departmental Plants Huw Irranca-Davies: I have been asked to reply. A list of companies that hold a Kitemark for flood Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, Department protection products can be found via the BSI website at for Business, Innovation and Skills how much his Department has spent on (a) cut flowers and (b) pot www.kitemark.com plants since its creation. [301352] Some products covered by the Kitemark for flood protection products may be available as consumer items Mr. McFadden: Since its creation in June 2009, this but most are installed by the manufacturer or an approved Department’s Estates section has spent £60, excluding installer. This ensures quality control of installation VAT, on a flower display for its Remembrance Day and that consumers receive instruction on the deployment ceremony at 1 Victoria Street. In addition, £9,780 has and maintenance of the products. been spent on plant displays across seven BIS managed buildings in London, Sheffield and Glasgow in office The National Flood Forum maintains a directory of and reception areas. This spend covers the hire and flood protection products and services called ‘Blue Pages’. maintenance of all internal plant displays and exterior Companies, if entitled to do so, can apply to be included maintenance. in the list of those that can display the Kitemark logo. The National Flood Forum does not endorse any products Departmental Recycling or approve the advertising claims in the listing. It is for the consumer to verify that the Kitemark applies to the Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Minister of State, Department particular product they wish to purchase. for Business, Innovation and Skills what weight of paper his Department has recycled since June 2009. [300773] Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what tests are undertaken Mr. McFadden: Between June and 31 October, the to ensure that flood resilient products are fit for purpose; Department for Business Innovation and Skills recycled and what redress to the consumer is available in a total weight of 189,740 kgs of paper. circumstances in which such a product fails to prevent flooding. [301071] Products: Flood Control Huw Irranca-Davies: I have been asked to reply. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills whether any BSI Products that obtain the Kitemark for flood protection Kitemarked flood resilient products are available to the products must meet one of the four parts of the PAS consumer. [301070] 1188 test specification. The four parts are: 235W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 236W

PAS 1188-1:2009. Flood protection products. Specification. Mr. Straw: The police investigation into the serious Part 1: Building aperture products. incident at HMP Ashwell is a matter for Leicestershire This applies to flood protection products used in the temporary police. I understand that their investigation is continuing. sealing of building apertures and entrances to properties. A A strategic review of Ashwell is well under way and I building aperture is an opening in the structure of a building will report to the House once further decisions have which allows access and egress and/or ventilation to the building. been taken. PAS 1188-2:2009 Flood protection products. Specification. Part 2: Temporary products. Departmental Cost Effectiveness A temporary flood protection product is one that is wholly installed during or following warning of a flood event and Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice removed completely when water levels have receded. It is for (a) use away from buildings but may be sealed against structures what efficiency savings projects his Department or buildings at section ends. and (b) its agencies put in place under the Operational Efficiency Programme; on what date each such project PAS 1188-3:2009 Flood protection products. Specification. was initiated; how much each such project was Part 3: Building skirt systems. expected to contribute to departmental savings; how Building skirt systems are a combination of materials and much had been saved through each such project on the components curtaining a building and used to limit or restrict latest date for which figures are available; and if he will the flow of water entering the building at or above ground make a statement. [300931] level. PAS 1188-4:2009 Flood protection products. Specification. Mr. Wills: The Operational Efficiency Programme Part 4: Demountable products. (OEP) published findings in April 2009 that identified A demountable flood protection product is one that is capable potential savings of around £6 billion a year by 2010-11 of being removed and reinstalled on permanent mountings. It and a further £9 billion of savings achievable by 2013-14 is for use away from buildings and may be sealed against from across Government. At Budget 2009, the MOJ structures or buildings at section ends. agreed an additional £70 million savings in addition to Some products covered by the Kitemark for flood the £1 billion savings agreed at the start of the protection products may be available as consumer items comprehensive spending review period. but most are installed by the manufacturer or an approved The MOJ is making good progress implementing installer. This ensures quality control of installation active programmes covering all of the OEP areas. These and that consumers receive instruction on the deployment projects typically include the Department’s agencies and maintenance of the products. within their scope: The level of redress would be set out in the contract In August 2009, the MOJ established a single ICT function, between the consumer and the supplier. bringing together three existing ICT organisations: eDelivery Group, covering areas including MOJ HQ, HM Students: Loans Courts Service and the Tribunals Service; NOMS agency ICT Paul Rowen: To ask the Minister of State, Department The OCJR Modernising Technology Unit for Business, Innovation and Skills how many students The MOJ has agreed an estates strategy to rationalise the applied for loans through Student Finance England for estate it inherited on its creation and deliver significant financial, the academic year 2009-10; how many students were sustainability and effectiveness gains. The outline business case waiting for student loan payments on the latest date for for the Estates Transformation Programme was signed off by the Estates Transformation Board in August 2009. which figures are available; and if he will make a statement. A detailed strategy for the MOJ procurement function called [301653] Procurement Success has been developed and signed off by the MOJ Corporate Management Board. The Procurement Success Mr. Lammy: The Student Loans Company has released programme strategy was approved by the Board on in November figures to show current levels of applications, processing 2008. and payment of student support in England for the An outline business case for a new MOJ Shared Services 2009/10 academic year on its website. I am advised that programme which is designed to achieve the MOJ wide shared SLC is still receiving several thousand new applications service vision for finance and human resources transactional each week. services has also been signed off by the MOJ Corporate Management Board. The original business case was signed off by the MOJ Investment Committee in October and the full business case is scheduled to go before the January MOJ Corporate Management Board. JUSTICE While these initiatives build on previous related work, full year savings are planned to be realised from 2010-11 Ashwell Prison through to 2013-14. It is planned that the MOJ contribution to OEP : To ask the Secretary of State for savings by 2013-14 will be announced in the forthcoming Justice with reference to the answer to the hon. pre-Budget report (PBR). Member for Harborough of 11 November 2009, Official Report, columns 262-63W, on Ashwell Prison, Departmental Legal Costs when he expects (a) the police investigation regarding the incident at HM Prison Ashwell in April 2009 and Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (b) the strategic review of HM Prison Ashwell to be what expenditure his Department and its agencies have completed. [300806] incurred on external legal advice and representation in 237W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 238W each year since his Department was established; and for electronically. To provide the information requested what purposes such professional services have been would involve the manual inspection of more than commissioned. [300582] 100,000 incident records which could be achieved only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Wills: Expenditure on external legal advice and NOMS has in place a strategy to reduce both the representation is interpreted as the cost of services supply and the demand for alcohol with a comprehensive provided by counsel and solicitors in private practice. It range of security measures and searching techniques to excludes advice from in house legal advisers or Treasury detect items of contraband, including alcohol, and prevent Solicitors. External lawyers are used mainly where in-house smuggling into establishments. It is a criminal offence resources are not available to deal with commercial to convey alcohol into prison and prisoners caught in contracts and special projects or where there are novel possession of alcohol within prison will face disciplinary or complex issues where it is considered that a second action. Alcohol consumption is a cause of criminality opinion is required. in society and many prisons have programmes in place Expenditure incurred on external legal advice and to assist prisoners to lessen their dependence on alcohol. representation by the Department and its executive Females: Prisoners agencies, excluding the National Offender Management Service (NOMS), since the Ministry of Justice was established is as follows: Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many female prisoners were held (a) under £000 30, (b) under 50, (c) under 100 and (d) over 100 miles from their home in each of the last 10 years. [300953] 2008-09 1,764 2007-08 2,297 Maria Eagle: The following table shows the total The accounting records for NOMS do not separately number of females held in prisons that were between 0 identify expenditure on external legal services. Identification and 30 miles; 30 to 50 miles; 50 to 100 miles; and over of external fees would involve examination of numerous 100 miles from their home area in each of the last five locally held records and could be undertaken only at years. Data prior to 2005 are not available in the format disproportionate cost. requested. The data in the table include those who were sentenced and on remand and relate to adults, young offenders Drugs: Prisons and juveniles.

Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for Up to 30-50 50-100 Over 100 Justice whether he has any plans to make the use of 30 miles miles miles miles Total body orifice security scanner chairs mandatory for (a) September 1,750 948 992 688 4,378 visitors and (b) staff members entering a prison in 2005 England and Wales. [300795] September 1,628 960 1,203 809 4,600 2006 Maria Eagle: The National Offender Management September 1,684 753 1,100 852 4,389 Service has not mandated how body orifice security 2007 September 1,667 819 1,116 815 4,417 scanner (BOSS) chairs must be used and currently has 2008 no plans to do so. As is the case for many searching May 2009 1,680 858 981 753 4,272 technologies and techniques, the decision on how to use the BOSS chairs is for individual governors to make, All prisoners are asked for details of their home and will depend on their local circumstances, including address on first reception to prison and on discharge their existing local searching strategies. The relevant from prison. Approximately 60 per cent. of prisoners Prison Service Instruction says: (both male and female) are shown to have given a ‘The frequency of searches using the BOSS and policies for its recognised address. use are for local discretion’ If no address is given, various proxies are used to and makes it clear that this can include using the BOSS determine distance from home, including next-of-kin chair to search staff and visitors. Searching strategies address and committal court address. Figures have been and levels of searches are based on a number of factors, scaled to match the overall female population. including local resources and intelligence. The recently published Mobile Phones Good Practice Guide also HM Courts Service: Databases provides specific advice on tackling the smuggling of mobile phones by staff and visitors. Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) what progress has been made towards Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for developing a bilingual version of the Libra IT system; Justice how many incidents of alcohol being (a) and if he will make a statement; [301482] brought into and (b) brewed in prison there have been (2) how much (a) has been spent and (b) is expected in each prison in England and Wales in each of the last to be spent on developing a bilingual version of the 10 years. [300807] Libra IT system; and if he will make a statement. [301485] Maria Eagle: Finds of alcohol within prisons are treated as a miscellaneous incident and recorded on the Bridget Prentice: The bilingual version of the Libra Prison Service Incident Reporting System. These incidents IT system was successfully released in all magistrates’ are in a format that cannot readily be interrogated courts in Wales on 13 September 2009, as planned. 239W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 240W

The cost of developing the Libra bilingual solution Bridget Prentice: Legal aid in asylum matters covers a was approximately £4 million, in line with the estimate variety of work including initial advice and legal provided to the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny representation at a tribunal and in judicial review. Willott) in January 2009. This figure represents costs for The following table shows the average cost of an application development, it does not include support asylum case where the bill was paid during the year costs, which are ongoing for the life of the application. 2008-09. No further development costs will be incurred for the bilingual solution. Support costs for the solution are Average cost (£) included in the overall support costs for the Libra application. Initial advice only 610 Advice and representation at a 1,670 tribunal HMP Liverpool The average cost of legal aid for judicial reviews in Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for immigration and asylum matters during 2008-09 was Justice what assessment he has made of the effect on £2,480. (The cost for asylum judicial reviews cannot be the operation of HMP Liverpool of the prison officers disaggregated from the figures for both immigration strike at that prison on 17 and 18 November 2009. and asylum.) [300950] Mentally Ill: Health Services

Mr. Straw: The industrial action at HMP Liverpool Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for on 17 and 18 November led to reduced staffing levels at Justice what the total construction cost was of the three the prison, with a resulting adverse impact on the most recently completed (a) low, (b) medium and (c) prison regime. This included the cancellation of visits high security mental health units in England and for prisoners, no prisoners being sent to court directly Wales, excluding the cost of the land purchased; how from HMP Liverpool, only very limited regime activities many beds were provided by each such unit; and on operating, and the deployment of police to patrol the what date construction commenced in each case. perimeter and picket line. The industrial action was [300799] unjustified, and unlawful, contrary to the provisions of s.127 of the Criminal Justice and part 2 order Act 1994, Phil Hope: I have been asked to reply. as amended. Information on the three most recent mental health capital investment schemes approved by the Department Legal Aid: Asylum is given in the following table. The further details requested can only be obtained from the business cases which Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for would incur disproportionate cost. Details of capital Justice what his most recent estimate is of the average investment schemes below the Department’s delegated cost of legal aid in respect of an asylum case. [301473] limit for approval are not held centrally.

Three most recent capital investment schemes approved by the Department Capital cost Name (£ million) Build start Open date

Derbyshire Mental Health 36 9 October 2007 10 June 2009 Reprovision of mental health Services NHS Trust services

South Essex Partnership NHS 32 5 October 2007 7 May 2009 Medium and low security mental Foundation Trust health unit on Runwell hospital site

Nottinghamshire Healthcare 19 23 December 2004 7 April 2008 Elderly and mental health units NHS Trust

Offenders: Mentally Ill An initial report on SPCR, focusing simply on prisoner characteristics, including mental health, has been published Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for by the Ministry of Justice, in 2008. This carries the title: Justice what recent estimate he has made of the relative The Problems and Needs of Newly Sentenced Prisoners: likelihood of a prisoner identified as having mental Results from a National Survey. Ministry of Justice health problems on entry to prison reoffending on Research Series 16/08 (2008). release, compared with a prisoner who was not http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/research-2008.htm originally assessed as mentally ill. [300797] Prison Accommodation Claire Ward: There is no estimate at present. However, Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice we are carrying out a longitudinal study of prisoners, how many adult prisoners who were sentenced to custody Surveying Prisoner Crime Reduction (SPCR). This is in an adult prison in each year since 1997 had already designed to enhance our knowledge of the extent to served sentences for previous convictions in (a) a secure which various factors relating to prisoners, including training centre and (b) a young offender institution. mental health problems, are linked with reoffending. [300801] 241W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 242W

Maria Eagle: The available information is shown in the following table.

Adult offenders receiving custodial sentences for indictable offence by the number of previous custodial sentences, 2000-07 Percentage and number of offenders Number of previous custodial sentences 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

0 3434323031323334 1 1414131312121212 2 10101099988 3+ 41 42 45 48 47 48 47 46 All adult offenders (100%) 67,189 67,776 72,965 73,017 74,037 71,049 69,709 69,739

This table has been taken from data published in Maria Eagle: Prison Service Order 0900 (PSO 0900) Chapter 6 of Sentencing Statistics 2007, available at: sets out policy and guidance on the security categorisation http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/sentencingannual.htm and allocation of prisoners. This ensures that all prisoners The table shows the breakdown of how many previous are placed in a security category consistent with managing custodial sentences adult offenders had received and their risks in terms of security and control and that the covers all types of previous custodial sentences. Information public is properly protected. about where the previous custodial sentences were served Work to update PSO 0900 is currently under way is not held in the data set used to produce the published with a view to publication next year. Revisions will tables. It is therefore not possible to identify how many consolidate into one document changes made to previous custodial sentences had been served at secure categorisation policy over the last few years, and will training centres or young offender institutions. restructure the document so that the guidance contained These figures have been drawn from the police’s within it is more readily accessible to operational users. administrative IT system which, as with any large scale Prisoners Release: Drugs recording system, is subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. The figures are provisional and Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for subject to change as more information is recorded by Justice what recent estimate he has made of the number the police. of prisoners who are suffering from substance misuse problems who have been released from prison in each Prison Performance Tables of the last five years. [300805]

Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for Maria Eagle: The following table sets out the number Justice whether his Department produces prison of prisoners assessed at either pre-release or start of performance tables with more precise rankings, data licence as having an offending-related risk factor relating and detail than the Prison Quarterly Ratings published to ‘drug misuse’. The assessment of offending-related on his Departmental website. [300945] risk factors was made through the Offender Assessment System (OASys) which is only applied to young adult Maria Eagle: Formerly prisons were ranked on their prisoners and to adult prisoners serving sentences of performance in the prisons weighted scorecard. However, more than 12 months. Figures are presented for the past this formed only one element of the final ratings for four years (2005-08) as the electronic OASys system was prisons. A new prison rating system was introduced for still being implemented in 2004. The number of assessments 2009-10, but the version used to produce the ratings for used to produce the figures increased from 28,064 in Quarter 1 did not lend itself to the production of a 2005 to 33,471 in 2008. The data are drawn from performance table. The system has been refined and will administrative IT systems and are subject to the inaccuracies produce for internal use by NOMS prison rankings as inherent in any large-scale assessment and recording part of the package when Quarter 2 ratings are published. system. The new system produces initial quarterly assessments Section score indicates a ‘drug misuse’ based on available data. Additional factors such as problem escapes and recent inspection results are then taken into Number of account in the final ratings by an independent external assessments Number Percentage moderation panel which includes a non-executive representative and is chaired by the Director of Criminal 2005 28,064 10,478 37.3 Justice Group in the Department. For this reason the 2006 30,172 11,704 38.8 final quarterly ratings published by the Department 2007 32,039 11,575 36.1 may differ from the data-driven rankings produced by 2008 33,471 11,857 35.4 NOMS. Prisoners Release: Mentally Ill

Prison Service Order Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what recent estimate he has made of the number Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for of prisoners who are suffering from serious mental Justice whether he plans to amend Prison Service health problems who have been released from prison in Order 0900. [300808] each of the last five years. [300803] 243W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 244W

Claire Ward: Information is not available in the form In August 2009, NOMS ran a series of design workshops requested. Where a prisoner is suffering from a mental to absorb recent innovations to enhance the management, disorder which requires treatment in hospital, he/she safety and security of staff, visitors and inmates. In so can be transferred to hospital by the Secretary of State. doing it is acknowledged that each site will differ in how Numbers of transfers of sentenced prisoners in England the land, planning permissions and any other existing and Wales over the last five years for which published buildings will support these measures as a design level. information is available were 296 (in 2003), 346 (in Output specifications have been used to support our 2004), 356 (in 2005), 421 (in 2006) and 394 (in 2007). desired outcomes of management, safety, security and Prisoners have the same rights to treatment in prison for rehabilitation. The new prisons design principle is to mental disorder, under NHS In-Reach provision, as encourage the market to innovate in order to improve they would have in the community. There is however no the operational outcomes. Publishing prescriptive design direct correlation between serious mental health problems specifications may therefore constrain innovation and and the need to be treated in a hospital. improvement.

Prisoners Transfers: Libya Prisons: Closed Visits

Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for how many prisoner transfer applications his Justice which prisons have closed visits; and whether Department has received in respect of Libyan prisoners there are plans to trial closed visits in prisons which in the UK since 17 November 2008. [301572] operate open visits. [301382]

Maria Eagle: One prisoner detained in England and Maria Eagle: The provision of closed visits facilities Wales has applied for transfer to Libya under the terms at each establishment is not centrally recorded. Governors of the prisoner transfer agreement between the United may vary the conditions under which social visits take Kingdom and Libya. His application is under consideration. place or introduce measures to restrict the level of The transfer of prisoners to and from Scotland is a contact between the prisoner and their visitor during matter for Scottish Ministers. The transfer of prisoners the course of the visit. Social visits will generally take to and from Northern Ireland is a matter for the Secretary place in an open environment and any decision to of State for Northern Ireland. impose restrictions on contact must be made on an individual basis in relation to a particular prisoner or Prisons visitor and be proportionate to risk. This proportionality test is a requirement under legislation and there are no Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for plans to change this. Justice (1) what provisions have been made within the design specifications for new-build prisons to Reoffenders encourage the more effective management of visitors, including families and children; [300853] Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what provisions have been made within the design Justice how many serious further offences were specifications for new-build prisons to improve the committed by offenders under level 1 multi-agency safety of (a) prison officers and (b) prisoners; [300854] public protection arrangements in each of the last 10 (3) what provisions have been made within the design years. [300794] specifications for new-build prisons to improve staff visibility inside prisons; [300855] Maria Eagle: Management information on the multi- (4) what provisions have been made within the design agency public protection arrangements (MAPPA) is specifications for new-build prisons to improve prison published in local area MAPPA annual reports. The MAPPA Annual Reports have included in each of the security; [300856] last five years the number of offenders managed at (5) what provisions have been made within the design MAPPA levels 2 and 3 who have been charged with specifications for new-build prisons to reduce the serious further offences. Areas have not so far been incidence of violence; [300857] asked to report on charges of serious offending against (6) what provisions have been made within the design MAPPA level 1 offenders, so the data requested is specifications for new-build prisons to discourage the unavailable. hiding of contraband; [300858] The purpose of the MAPPA annual reports is to (7) if he will publish the design principles and show what multi-agency intervention and resources bring specifications used for new-build prisons; [300859] to local public protection arrangements. The focus of (8) what provisions have been made within the design the information in the annual reports, therefore, has specifications for new-build prisons to reduce the been upon the offenders managed at level 2 and 3 rather incidence of prisoner suicide. [300869] than at level 1, where offenders are managed through ordinary agency management. Maria Eagle: New prisons are designed, constructed However, in order to provide data on the whole and managed to promote rehabilitation and education offender population eligible for multi-agency management with a view to minimising the likelihood of re-offending, and resources, since April 2009 all areas have been prevent escapes and operated in a way which would required to record instances of offenders managed at ensure that the prison population would, within each level 1 of MAPPA who are charged with serious further perimeter, be held in a safe, secure environment and offences (as well as those managed at levels 2 and 3), behave in a controlled and orderly manner. with a view to inclusion in next year’s annual reports. 245W Written Answers25 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 246W

Secure Accommodation: Young Offender Institutions Youth Custody David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many children aged between (a) 10 and Justice with reference to the answer of 4 November 14 and (b) 15 and 17-years were in custody on (i) the 2009, Official Report, columns 1025-6W, on secure latest date for which figures are available and (ii) the accommodation: young offender institutions, for what equivalent date in each of the last five years. [300253] reasons value added tax is not included within the Maria Eagle: The following tables show how many figures. [300709] children and young people aged between (a) 10 and 14 and (b) 15 and 17-years were in custody on Maria Eagle: VAT is payable only on the places (i) 2 October 2009, and (ii) 2 October in each of the last commissioned by the youth justice board in secure five years. training centres and private sector young offender The data have been provided by the Youth Justice institutions. VAT is not payable on the places in secure Board and are drawn from administrative computer children’s homes or public sector young offender systems. As with any large scale recording system, the institutions. Therefore, VAT is excluded from these figures data are subject to possible errors with data entry and in order to provide a valid comparison between sectors. processing and may be subject to change over time. (i) Young people in custody by age group as of 2 October 2009 Number Young Offenders (a) 10 to 14 137 (b) 15 to 17 2,419 Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Total 2,556 Justice for what reasons some youth offending teams represent more than one local authority. [301298] (ii) Young people in custody by age group As of 2 October each year Age group 2008 2007 2006 2005 2004 Maria Eagle: Local authorities are responsible for the formation of youth offending teams and, on occasion, (a) 10 to 14 159 186 221 226 206 neighbouring local authorities will decide to provide a (b) 15 to 17 2,755 2,797 2,832 2,779 2,576 joint service across their areas. This is in accordance Total 2,914 2,983 3,053 3,005 2,782 with the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, Section 39(2). 13MC Ministerial Corrections25 NOVEMBER 2009 Ministerial Corrections 14MC

currently required for. Fit for purpose figures as at Ministerial Correction 4 November 2009 are shown in the following table, along with total fleet numbers. Wednesday 25 November 2009 Number fit for Vehicle Total fleet number purpose

DEFENCE AS90 145 132 Challenger 2 385 261 Armoured Fighting Vehicles CRARRV 81 70 CVR(T) 1,168 928 Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence FV 430 (Mk2 and 1,400 658 how many armoured vehicles of each type in the armed Bulldog) forces are (a) fit to be deployed and (b) in service in Fuchs 11 11 Afghanistan. [297932] Saxon 147 147 [Official Report, 10 November 2009, Vol. 499, c. 230W.] Titan 33 24 Letter of correction from Mr. Quentin Davies: Trojan 33 25 Errors have been identified in the written answer Warrior 793 552 given to the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) on Mastiff 271 134 10 November 2009. The entries for Challenger 2 and Panther 401 334 Snatch 2 have been revised. Ridgback 118 73 The correct answer should have been: Snatch 2 (including 653 358 variants) Mr. Quentin Davies: I am withholding the information Vector 192 87 requested on the numbers of vehicles fit for deployment and in service on operations for operational security Viking 116 86 reasons. I can however provide figures for armoured vehicles Significant quantities of Mastiff, Vector and Snatch which are fit for purpose. This is defined as vehicles that are currently in the process of withdrawal to the UK are capable of being used in whatever capacity they are following the cessation of operations in Iraq.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 25 November 2009

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 522 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 522 Employment ...... 517 Future Jobs Fund...... 519 SCOTLAND...... 513 Nuclear Waste...... 516 Broadband ...... 513 People Trafficking ...... 515 Devolution...... 522 Rail Services (Economic Impact) ...... 522 Economic Inactivity...... 521 Tourism...... 520 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 25 November 2009

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 80WS HEALTH...... 82WS Charity Commission DEL (2009-10) ...... 80WS Personal Care at Home ...... 82WS JUSTICE...... 83WS CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 80WS High Court Judges ...... 83WS Dr. David Southall (Special Case Files) ...... 80WS SCOTLAND...... 84WS Scotland’s Future in the United Kingdom ...... 84WS DEFENCE...... 81WS TREASURY ...... 79WS Al-Sweady Inquiry ...... 81WS Indemnity to Bank of England ...... 79WS PETITION

Wednesday 25 November 2009

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION Equitable Life (Kingston and Surbiton)...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 25 November 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 230W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued Business: EU Grants and Loans ...... 230W Social Services: Haringey ...... 222W Christmas...... 230W Teachers: Pay ...... 222W Company Liquidations ...... 231W Conditions of Employment...... 231W Departmental Food...... 232W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 172W Departmental Manpower...... 232W Affordable Housing...... 172W Departmental Official Cars...... 233W Community Development...... 173W Departmental Pay ...... 234W Departmental ICT ...... 173W Departmental Plants ...... 233W Departmental Recruitment ...... 173W Departmental Recycling...... 233W Home Information Packs...... 173W Products: Flood Control ...... 233W Homelessness: South East...... 174W Students: Loans ...... 235W Homes and Communities Agency...... 175W Housing: Planning ...... 176W CABINET OFFICE...... 166W Land Use ...... 177W Population: Statistics...... 166W Legal Opinion...... 177W Local Government: Pensions ...... 178W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 219W Mortgage Rescue Scheme ...... 181W Children: Carers...... 219W Mortgages...... 182W Class Sizes...... 220W National Coalfields Programme...... 183W Departmental Food...... 219W Overcrowded Households ...... 183W Departmental Plants ...... 221W Register of Surplus Public Sector Land ...... 172W Education: Assessments ...... 221W Sheltered Housing: Tamworth...... 183W History: Secondary Education ...... 221W Smoke Alarms ...... 183W Schools: Sports ...... 222W Vacant Land: Tamworth ...... 184W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 168W HEALTH—continued Departmental Taxis ...... 168W Dental Services ...... 188W Departmental Theft ...... 168W Departmental Cost Effectiveness ...... 188W Gambling Commission ...... 168W Departmental Disclosure of Information...... 189W Gambling Commission: Allowances ...... 169W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 189W Gambling Commission: Standards ...... 169W Departmental Pay ...... 189W Leisure: Local Government Finance ...... 169W Departmental Recycling...... 190W Olympic Games 2012: West Midlands...... 169W Departmental Theft ...... 190W Operational Efficiency Programme ...... 170W Drugs: Misuse...... 190W Public Libraries: Wirral...... 171W Eye Tests and Dental Checks ...... 191W Tourism...... 171W Health: Screening...... 193W Whistleblowing ...... 171W Herbal Medicine ...... 193W Mental Health Services: South East...... 193W DEFENCE...... 148W Multiple Sclerosis: Drugs ...... 194W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 148W National Child Health Immunisation Board...... 195W Armed Forces: Accommodation ...... 149W NHS: Disclosure of Information ...... 195W Armed Forces: Body Armour ...... 150W NHS: Finance ...... 196W Armed Forces: Injuries...... 151W NHS: ICT ...... 196W Christmas...... 152W NHS: Manpower ...... 196W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 152W Prescriptions: Fees and Charges...... 196W Departmental Pay ...... 152W European Defence Agency...... 153W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 197W Military Aircraft: EU Action ...... 154W 101 Calls ...... 197W Ministerial Travel ...... 154W Alcoholic Drinks: Young People ...... 197W Warships: EU Action ...... 154W Asylum ...... 206W Asylum: Democratic Republic of Congo ...... 206W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 166W Borders: Personal Records ...... 206W Cancer: Children...... 166W Child Migrant Programme...... 207W Electricity: Prices ...... 166W Crimes of Violence...... 207W Natural Gas: Prices...... 167W Departmental Energy...... 208W Departmental Security ...... 208W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 208W AFFAIRS...... 136W Gurkhas...... 209W Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund...... 136W Immobilisation of Vehicles...... 209W Dogs: Electric Shock Equipment ...... 137W Intelligence Services: European Convention on Genetically Modified Organisms: Food ...... 138W Human Rights ...... 209W Horses: Animal Welfare ...... 137W Local Authorities: Finance...... 210W Nature Conservation: Trade...... 137W National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse: Pets: Retail Trade ...... 138W Finance...... 212W Sewers: Private Sector ...... 139W Overseas Students ...... 213W Wildlife: Finance...... 139W Police ...... 213W Wildlife: Licensing ...... 139W Police: Pay...... 214W Police: Performance Standards...... 214W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 158W Police: Public Order Units...... 214W Canada: Embassies ...... 158W Police: Sussex ...... 215W Christmas Food Procurement ...... 159W Safer Schools Partnerships...... 215W Colombia: EU External Trade ...... 159W Sponsor Register...... 215W Departmental Food Procurement ...... 159W Student Visitors ...... 216W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 160W Students Visas...... 216W Departmental Pay ...... 160W Terrorism Act 2000 ...... 217W Departmental Property: Theft...... 161W UK Border Agency ...... 217W Departmental Rail Travel...... 161W Warehouse Parties...... 218W Departmental Recycling...... 161W Diplomatic Relations: Parliament ...... 162W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 223W Gibraltar: Politics and Government ...... 162W Burundi: Overseas Aid...... 223W Government Hospitality ...... 162W Christmas...... 223W Iraq: Health ...... 163W Departmental Air Travel ...... 224W Iraq: Iran ...... 163W Departmental Assets...... 224W Middle East: Armed Conflict...... 164W Departmental Cost Effectiveness ...... 224W National Independent Electoral Commission ...... 164W Departmental Food...... 225W Somalia: Human Trafficking...... 165W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 225W Somalia: Piracy ...... 165W Departmental Pay ...... 226W United Arab Emirates ...... 165W Developing Countries: Secondary Education...... 228W Whistleblowing ...... 166W Global Fund to Fight AIDS Tuberculosis and Malaria...... 229W HEALTH...... 184W Landmines ...... 229W Abortion ...... 184W Remittances ...... 229W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 185W Zimbabwe: Overseas Aid...... 230W Bone Marrow Disorders: Donors...... 185W Breast Cancer...... 186W JUSTICE...... 235W Climate Change ...... 188W Ashwell Prison ...... 235W Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE—continued TRANSPORT—continued Departmental Cost Effectiveness ...... 236W Network Rail: Consultants ...... 132W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 236W Ports: Liverpool ...... 133W Drugs: Prisons ...... 237W Railways: Finance ...... 133W Females: Prisoners ...... 238W Road Signs and Markings: Bridges ...... 133W HM Courts Service: Databases ...... 238W Speed Limits: Cameras...... 134W HMP Liverpool ...... 239W Legal Aid: Asylum...... 239W TREASURY ...... 140W Mentally Ill: Health Services...... 240W Banks: Pay ...... 140W Offenders: Mentally Ill...... 239W Christmas...... 140W Prison Accommodation ...... 240W Corporation Tax ...... 140W Prison Performance Tables...... 241W Departmental Assets...... 141W Prison Service Order ...... 241W Departmental Coordination: Economic Situation.. 141W Prisoners Release: Drugs...... 242W Departmental Cost Effectiveness ...... 141W Prisoners Release: Mentally Ill...... 242W Departmental Disclosure of Information...... 142W Prisoners Transfers: Libya...... 243W Departmental Food...... 142W Prisons ...... 243W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 143W Prisons: Closed Visits...... 244W Departmental Meetings ...... 143W Reoffenders...... 244W Departmental Pay ...... 143W Secure Accommodation: Young Offender Departmental Rail Travel...... 143W Institutions ...... 245W Departmental Taxis ...... 144W Young Offenders ...... 245W Departmental Working Hours ...... 144W Youth Custody...... 246W Financial Services: Regulation ...... 144W Generic Financial Advice Review...... 144W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 157W Government Securities ...... 145W Christmas...... 157W Housing: Valuation ...... 145W Departmental Food...... 157W Income Tax ...... 145W Police: Devolution...... 157W Monetary Policy ...... 146W Public Expenditure...... 146W OLYMPICS ...... 147W Tax Allowances: Pensions ...... 146W Olympic and Paralympic Games...... 147W Tax Allowances: Professional Organisations ...... 147W Operational Efficiency Programme ...... 147W Taxation: EU Countries...... 147W Third Sector Organisations ...... 148W Ulster Bank...... 147W WALES...... 155W SCOTLAND...... 134W Christmas...... 155W Departmental Meetings ...... 135W Climate Change ...... 155W Departmental Rail Travel...... 135W Departmental Air Travel ...... 155W Departmental Vehicles ...... 136W Departmental Cost Effectiveness ...... 155W Devolution...... 135W Departmental Food...... 156W Digital Economy Bill ...... 135W Departmental Internet ...... 156W Health Care and Housing: Armed Forces ...... 134W Departmental Meetings ...... 156W Immigration: Scotland ...... 136W Departmental Pay ...... 156W Small Businesses: UK Financial Investments...... 135W Departmental Rail Travel...... 156W Departmental Scientists ...... 157W SOLICITOR-GENERAL...... 131W Climate Change ...... 131W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 218W Fraud: Prosecutions ...... 131W Equalities and Human Rights Commission ...... 218W Prosecutions...... 131W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 157W TRANSPORT ...... 132W Bereavement Benefits ...... 157W M5: Cameras ...... 132W Housing Benefit ...... 158W M18: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 132W Winter Fuel Allowance ...... 158W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 25 November 2009

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 25 November 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 513] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Indemnity to Bank of England [Col. 533] Statement—(Mr. Darling)

Scotland’s Future in the UK [Col. 547] Statement—(Mr. Jim Murphy)

Personal Care at Home [Col. 559] Bill presented, and read the First time

Debate on the Address [Col. 560] Amendment—(Chris Grayling)—on a Division, negatived Debate adjourned

Petitions [Col. 644]

Adoption and Custody (Suffolk) [Col. 646] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Christmas Adjournment [Col. 655] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Petition [Col. 5P] Presented Petition

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 79WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 131W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 13MC]