Pre-Appointment Hearing with the Government's Preferred Candidate for Chair of the Committee on Climate Change

House of Commons Energy and Climate Change Committee

Pre-appointment hearing with the Government’s preferred candidate for Chair of the Committee on Climate Change

Fourth Report of Session 2012–13

Report, together with formal minutes and oral evidence

Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 4 September 2012

HC 555 Published on 10 September 2012 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £10.00

The Energy and Climate Change Committee

The Energy and Climate Change Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Department of Energy and Climate Change and associated public bodies.

Current membership Mr Tim Yeo MP (Conservative, South Suffolk) (Chair) Dan Byles MP (Conservative, North Warwickshire) Barry Gardiner MP (Labour, Brent North) Ian Lavery MP (Labour, Wansbeck) Dr Phillip Lee MP (Conservative, Bracknell) Albert Owen MP (Labour, Ynys Môn) Christopher Pincher MP (Conservative, Tamworth) John Robertson MP (Labour, Glasgow North West) Laura Sandys MP (Conservative, South Thanet) Sir Robert Smith MP (Liberal Democrat, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) Dr Alan Whitehead MP (Labour, Southampton Test)

The following members were also members of the committee during the parliament:

Gemma Doyle MP (Labour/Co-operative, West Dunbartonshire) Tom Greatrex MP (Labour, Rutherglen and Hamilton West)

Powers The Committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk.

Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the internet at www.parliament.uk/ecc.

The Report of the Committee, the formal minutes relating to that report, oral evidence taken and some or all written evidence are available in a printed volume. Additional written evidence may be published on the internet only.

Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Sarah Hartwell-Naguib (Clerk), Elizabeth Bolton (Second Clerk), Jenny Bird (Senior Committee Specialist), Luanne Middleton (Inquiry Manager), Katie Phelan-Molloy (Senior Committee Assistant), Jonathan Olivier Wright (Committee Assistant), Danielle Nash (Administrative Assistant), and Nick Davies (Media Officer).

Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Energy and Climate Change Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 2569; the Committee’s email address is [email protected]

Contents

Report Page

Summary 3

1 Appointment of the Chair of the Committee on Climate Change 5

Annex 1: Correspondence 11

Annex 2: Candidate Brief 13

Annex 3: Candidate’s Curriculum Vitae 22

Annex 4: Register of Interests 25

Formal Minutes 27

Witnesses 28

List of Reports from the Committee during the current Parliament 29

Summary

On 4 September 2012 we held a pre-appointment hearing with the Government’s preferred candidate for the post of Chair of the Committee on Climate Change, The Rt Hon Lord Deben PC. On the basis of the evidence provided at this hearing, we have concluded that Lord Deben is a suitable candidate to Chair the Committee on Climate Change and recommend that he be appointed to this position.

1 Appointment of the Chair of the Committee on Climate Change

Introduction: Pre-appointment hearings 1. The July 2007 Green Paper, The Governance of Britain, proposed the introduction of pre-appointment hearings for key public officials in which Parliament has a particularly strong interest. It stated that in each case, it should fall to the relevant Select Committee to conduct the hearing, which should cover “issues such as the candidate’s suitability for the role, his or her key priorities, and the process used in selection”.1 The outcome of the hearing is non-binding, though the Report from the Committee should inform Ministers’ decision-making on whether to proceed.

2. In 2011, the Liaison Committee published a Report on pre-appointment hearings which included draft guidance for Committees and Departments on the pre-appointment hearing process. 2

3. On 5 July 2012 the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change announced that Lord Deben had been chosen to succeed Lord Turner as Chair of the Committee on Climate Change, the Government’s advisor on setting and meeting carbon budgets and preparing for the impacts of climate change. The Secretary of State wrote to us on 4 July to invite the Committee to hold a pre-appointment hearing. This took place on 4 September 2012. We are grateful to Lord Deben for making himself available to give evidence to the Committee.

The Committee on Climate Change 4. The Committee on Climate Change (CCC) is an independent, statutory Non- Departmental Public Body established under the Climate Change Act 2008. Its purpose is to advise the UK Government and Devolved Administrations on emissions targets, and to report to Parliament on progress made in reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

5. In fulfilling this objective, the Committee’s priorities are to:

• Advise on the appropriate level of the UK’s carbon budgets and steps required to meet

them. The budgets define the maximum level of CO2 and other greenhouse gases which the UK can emit in each 5 year budget period, beginning with 2008-12.

• Monitor progress towards meeting carbon budgets and recommending actions to keep budgets on track.

• Advise as requested on Devolved Administration carbon targets and strategies, and progress towards reducing emissions.

1 Ministry of Justice, The Governance of Britain (Cm 7170), July 2007 2 Liaison Committee, First Report of Session 2010-12, Select Committees and Public Appointments, HC 830

• Conduct independent analysis into climate change science, economics and policy and advising the Government as requested by the sponsors.

• Advise on the preparation of the UK Climate Change Risk Assessment and monitoring implementation of the UK Government’s National Adaptation Programme.

• Engage with a wide range of organisations and individuals to share evidence and analysis.

6. The Committee provides increased transparency, accountability and independence, operating at arm’s length from the UK Government and the Devolved Administrations, reporting annually to the UK Parliament and the respective Devolved Administrations on the progress being made by the UK towards meeting carbon budgets and targets.

7. The Committee currently comprises seven members: a chair and six independent members. The Committee employs a Chief Executive and a Secretariat of around 34 staff to provide analytical and corporate support and operates with an annual budget of around £4m. It is jointly-sponsored by the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC), the Northern Ireland Executive, the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government.

8. The Adaptation Sub-Committee of the Committee was also established under the Climate Change Act to advise the UK Government and Devolved Administrations and reports to Parliament on preparedness for climate change in the UK. The Chair of the Adaptation Sub-Committee sits on the main Committee and it is jointly-sponsored by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive.

The role of the Chair of the Committee on Climate Change 9. The overall purpose of the job, as described in the information pack made available to prospective applicants for the post of Chair, is to “be responsible for steering and developing the overall work of the Committee on Climate Change, while the Chief Executive manages the day to day running of the body. […] He or she will also represent the Committee and promote its strategy and overall direction”.3 The Chair will be the figurehead of the Committee. Key responsibilities will include:

• Chairing meetings and determining procedures for the Committee;

• Providing excellent vision and leadership;

• Being responsible for fulfilling the Committee’s functions as set out in the Climate Change Act including presenting reports to Ministers, UK Parliament and the respective Devolved Administrations;

• Overseeing the work of the Chief Executive providing appropriate support ensuring appropriate management and governance within the organisation;

3 Briefing pack made available to prospective applicants for the post of Chair of the Committee on Climate Change

• Representing the Committee externally and fostering close working relationships with key experts, including academics, business as well as foreign governments and intergovernmental institutions.4

10. In the information sent to candidates, the Government stated that the position would require the following skills and experience:

• A track record of achieving results and providing strategic vision to lead a high-profile public organisation;

• An exceptional ability to communicate and build relationships at all levels alongside strong interpersonal skills, including the ability to negotiate, persuade and influence;

• The stature and capacity to provide independent and pragmatic advice to Ministers and a track record of dealing with senior representatives of academic, NGO and business sectors, the media, and with policy-makers in central government and internationally;

• Expert ability to process and interpret complex information; well-developed analytical reasoning skills and judgment, and the ability to provide intellectual leadership and demonstrate a creative and pro-active approach to problem solving and a high level of professionalism;

• Ability to ensure that the organisation's financial dealings are prudently and systematically accounted for, audited and publicly available; and

• A commitment to work according to Nolan’s seven principles of public life: selflessness, integrity, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership.

• Expertise in specific areas: Candidates should be able to demonstrate a good knowledge of the range of the Committee’s work and an understanding of applied economics and climate change policy. (The Committee’s work covers business competitiveness, climate change policy, in particular its special impacts, climate science, economic analysis and forecasting, emissions trading, energy production and supply, financial investment and technology development and diffusion.)5

The recruitment process 11. DECC informed us that the recruitment process was as follows:

• The advert was placed on 21 December 2011 on the Sunday Times online, Executive Appointments online, the Economist online, Cabinet Office public appointments, DECC, CCC and Scottish Executive websites as well as Odgers Berndtson online with a closing date of 22 January 2012 . The candidate brief and advert were drawn up in consultation with the CCC and colleagues in the devolved administrations.

4 As above. 5 As above.

• Ahead of the deadline for applications, Odgers Berndtson approached a number of people who were considered to be a good match with the requirements of the role and were invited to apply.

• The selection panel for the appointment was chaired by Moira Wallace (Permanent Secretary, DECC). Tera Allas (BIS), Sir John Beddington (Chief Scientist), Clive Bates (Welsh Government) and Sheila Drew Smith (Office of the Comissioner for Public Appointments Independent Assessor) sat alongside.

• The panel met twice: for a long list and a short list meeting. Seven candidates were placed on the long list from 12 applications. Following discussions held by the executive search company with these applicants, and based on the required skills and experience set out in the application pack, the panel agreed that four candidates should be shortlisted and invited to interview on 27 February 2012. One candidate withdrew from the process ahead of the interview.

• At interview, each candidate was assessed against the qualities and experience required for the role which was set out in the candidate brief.

• The panel considered two candidates to be appointable. The Climate Change Act 2008 specifies that the appointment of the CCC Chair and its Members are made jointly by the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and Ministers in the devolved administrations. As such, the candidates were put to Ministers for their decision.

• Ministers agreed that Lord Deben was their preferred candidate. The Prime Minister was informed of the decision and Lord Deben’s name was put forward to the Energy and Climate Change Committee for pre-appointment scrutiny.

The preferred candidate: The Rt Hon John Gummer, Lord Deben PC

The candidate’s background 12. Lord Deben is President of GLOBE International (The Global Legislators Organisation, which seeks ambitious political leadership on issues of climate and energy security, land- use change and ecosystems). He also currently holds a number of Non-executive Director positions, is Chairman of several companies and is a Trustee of several charities. A list of Lord Deben’s registered interests at the time of the hearing is provided in Annex 4.

13. Lord Deben was a Member of Parliament until 2010. He served as Secretary of State for the Environment from 1993-1997 and was Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food between 1989-1993. He was twice awarded the title "Parliamentarian who did most for the environment internationally" by the BBC as well as being described as "the best Environment Secretary we've ever had" by Friends of the Earth.

14. Lord Deben was Chairman of David Cameron’s Quality of Life Commission, as well as Chairman of the Oxford Commission for Sustainable Consumption. For seven years he chaired the Marine Stewardship Council and he writes regularly on environmental and planning issues.

15. Lord Deben was educated at King’s School Rochester and Selwyn College Cambridge where he was President of the Cambridge Union.

Our evidence 16. In line with the guidance produced by the Liaison Committee on the conduct of pre- appointment hearings, our questioning was intended to test the candidate’s professional competence and personal independence. In particular, we asked about the following specific matters:

• His vision for the CCC and ambitions for the post;

• Real or perceived conflicts of interest in relation to posts currently held and party political connections;

• His understanding of challenges on the horizon for the CCC and how he intends to tackle them;

• His understanding of the work of the CCC to date; and

• His experience in the world of business and ability to communicate with stakeholders in the sector.

A transcript of our cross-examination is published with this report.

The Committee’s view on the suitability of the candidate 17. Lord Deben has demonstrated a longstanding commitment to the environmental agenda and has had a distinguished career in this area. He has been Secretary of State for the Environment, led the Quality of Life Commission, is currently President of GLOBE International, and has had extensive involvement with environmental bodies. During his evidence to us, Lord Deben also highlighted his business credentials which he is confident will enable him to command confidence and engage effectively with the business community.

18. In our questioning we sought reassurance about a possible perceived conflict between Lord Deben’s personal financial interests and his prospective role as Chair of the Committee on Climate Change. We note that potential conflicts were assessed according to the 2009 guidelines from the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments.6 Lord Deben informed us that he had discussed these with the Department of Energy and Climate Change and the Cabinet Office, and would be taking appropriate steps to ensure that any conflicts were removed. We accepted Lord Deben’s reassurances, in correspondence with us and during the hearing, that he will relinquish all relevant financial interests on taking up his appointment. We were further reassured that his political affiliation would not affect the independence of the Committee’s work.

19. We are satisfied that Lord Deben is a suitable candidate to chair the Committee on Climate Change and recommend that he be appointed to this position. We look forward to

6 Letter from Ed Davey MP, Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, September 2012, published as Annex 1

maintaining a good working relationship with the Committee on Climate Change, and wish Lord Deben well in his new post.

Annex 1: Correspondence

Letter from Rt Hon Edward Davey MP, Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, July 2012 As you know, we have been searching for a new Chair for the Committee on Climate Change to succeed Lord Turner. This is an extremely important post that is central to the UK’s ambitious approach to tackling climate change.

Alex Attwood MLA, John Griffiths AM, Stewart Stevenson MSP and I are pleased to be able to inform you that we have chosen Lord Deben as our preferred candidate. Lord Deben brings with him an extensive understanding of working with businesses in the environment sector coupled with experience of working with Government during his time as a Government Minister and an MP.

You have expressed a wish for our preferred candidate to attend a pre-appointment hearing with the Committee. I would be grateful if you would issue Lord Deben with an invitation to attend and attach the information pack for the post and the candidate’s CV.

Letter from Rt Hon Edward Davey MP, Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, September 2012 I am writing to respond to two questions the Committee has raised with the Department as part of the background for Lord Deben’s pre-appointment hearing for the position of Chair of the Committee on Climate Change on Tuesday 4th September.

What guidance was given to candidates on how relevant interests should/would be handled? Candidates were made aware at the start of the process that the appointment adhered to OCPA guidance. This was clearly detailed in the job specification. The seven principles of public life were also included in the job specification detailing and reminding candidates of the need for ‘Honesty - Holders of public office have a duty to declare any private interests relating to their public duties and to take steps to resolve any conflicts arising in a way that protects the public interest.’

Candidates were asked to declare conflicts in their application form and these were discussed with the candidate at interview. Conflicts were assessed according to the 2009 OCPA guidelines on conflicts of interest.7 Where it was considered that conflicts might exist, further discussions were held between the candidate, the Department of Energy and Climate Change and the Cabinet Office to ensure that appropriate steps to remove any conflicts would be taken before the appointment could be made.

7 http://publicappointmentscommissioner.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/New-Code-of-Practice-for- Ministerial-Appointments-to-Public-Bodies-August-2009.pdf

What criteria were used to decide between the two candidates that were identified as appointable/what considerations led to the conclusion that Lord Deben was the strongest candidate? The decision was made jointly by the Secretary of State and the Devolved Administrations. They were invited to make a decision between the appointable candidates put to them following interviews by civil servants and an OCPA independent Assessor.

The selection process probed the following criteria:

Essential Experience and Skills

• The ability to ensure that the organisation’s financial dealings are prudently and systematically accounted for, audited and publicly available.

• A commitment to work according to Nolan’s seven principles of public life: selflessness, integrity, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership.

• Evidence to show a track record of achieving results and providing strategic vision to lead a high-profile public organisation.

• Non-executive board experience as a member or chair.

• Ability to communicate and build relationships at all levels alongside strong interpersonal skills, including the ability to negotiate, persuade and influence.

• The stature and capacity to provide independent and pragmatic advice to Ministers and a track record of dealing with senior representatives of the academic, NGO and business sectors, the media and with policy-makers in central government and internationally.

• The intellectual rigour to challenge and ability to process and interpret complex information; well developed analytical and reasoning skills and judgement using the best possible evidence, and the ability to provide intellectual leadership and demonstrate a creative and pro-active approach to problem solving and a high level of professionalism.

Highly Desirable Experience and Skills

• Demonstrated a good knowledge of the range of the committee’s work

• An understanding of applied economies and climate policy

I hope that this answers your questions and that you have all the other information required for the pre appointment hearing.

The Committee on Climate Change plays an absolutely critical role in advising the Government on the direction and progress of its energy and climate change policies. I am confident that Lord Deben’s knowledge and experience of the environmental sector, including a distinguished track record in both government and in business, and a detailed knowledge of climate change issues, make him an excellent candidate for the role.

Annex 2: Candidate Brief

The Committee on Climate Change

Appointment of Chair, Climate Change Committee The UK Government and the Devolved Administrations are seeking an individual to serve as Chair of the Committee on Climate Change, a Non-Departmental Public Body which was established in 2008 under the provisions of the Climate Change Act 2008. It is the first body of its kind and brings together a range of world-class experts from the fields of climate science and policy, technology, energy production and supply, economics, business competitiveness and financial management among other related fields.

The successful candidate will be expected to become the Chair of the Committee as soon as they are appointed and will play an important role in shaping the work of the Committee in providing independent and expert advice on climate change policy to the UK Government and the Devolved Administrations.

What is the Committee on Climate Change? The Committee on Climate Change is a high profile, independent, statutory nondepartmental public body established under the Climate Change Act 2008. Its purpose is to advise the UK Government and Devolved Administrations on emissions targets, and to report to Parliament on progress made in reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

In fulfilling this objective, the Committee’s priorities are to:

• Advise on the appropriate level of the UK’s carbon budgets and steps required to meet

them. The budgets define the maximum level of CO2 and other greenhouse gases which the UK can emit in each 5 year budget period, beginning with 2008-12.

• Monitor progress towards meeting carbon budgets and recommending actions to keep budgets on track.

• Advise as requested on Devolved Administration carbon targets and strategies, and progress towards reducing emissions.

• Conduct independent analysis into climate change science, economics and policy and advising the Government as requested by the sponsors.

• Advise on the preparation of the UK Climate Change Risk Assessment and monitoring implementation of the UK Government’s National Adaptation Programme.

• Engage with a wide range of organisations and individuals to share evidence and analysis.

The Committee provides increased transparency, accountability and independence, operating at arm’s length from the UK Government and the Devolved Administrations,

reporting annually to the UK Parliament and the respective Devolved Administrations on the progress being made by the UK towards meeting carbon budgets and targets.

The Committee currently comprises seven members: a chair and six independent members. The Committee employs a Chief Executive and a Secretariat of around 34 staff to provide analytical and corporate support and operates with an annual budget of around £4m. It is jointly-sponsored by the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC), the Northern Ireland Executive, the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government.

The Adaptation Sub-Committee of the Committee was also established under the Climate Change Act to advise the UK Government and Devolved Administrations and reports to Parliament on preparedness for climate change in the UK. The Chair of the Adaptation Sub-Committee sits on the main Committee and it is jointly-sponsored by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive.

CCC’s key advice to Government has included:

• Recommending that the 2050 climate target be raised from 60 to 80% as a suitable contribution by the UK towards international efforts to tackle climate change.

• Recommending the level for the UK’s first four carbon budgets (2008-2012, 2013-2017, 2018-2022, 2023-27) – these are now legislated and commit the UK to a 34% reduction in emissions of GHGs by 2020 (on 1990 levels), rising to a 50% reduction by 2025.

• Advising that the Government should reform the electricity market around a model of long term contracts for low carbon generation; this model was the basis for the recent Electricity Market Reform White Paper.

• Conducting a review of UK aviation emissions and identified options for meeting the 2050 target that these should be below 2005 levels.

• Recommending changes to the Carbon Reduction Energy Efficiency Scheme which were subsequently implemented by Government.

• Conducting a review into Renewable Energy target and policies to meet it, as set out in the Coalition Agreement.

• Advising the Devolved Administrations on setting their climate change targets for example: advising the Scottish Government on a cumulative emissions budget to 2050: advice on the appropriateness of a Northern Ireland Climate Change Act; and advice to the Welsh Government on reducing emissions and preparing for climate change in Wales.

• Providing the first two independent assessments of the UK’s preparedness to adapt to climate change impacts & how the UK’s adaptation programme might be developed.

CCC’s forthcoming advice includes a review of UK shipping emissions & their inclusion in carbon budgets, bioenergy and its potential for use across the UK, recommending whether or not the UK’s share of international aviation and shipping emissions should be included in UK’s carbon budget and Climate Change Act, carbon leakage and competitiveness,

annual progress reports including detailed assessment of achievement of the first carbon budget (2008-12) and recommendation on the level of the 5th carbon budget. Forthcoming advice to the Devolved Administrations will include annual reports to Scottish and Welsh Governments on progress in reducing emissions and preparing for climate change.

Further information For further information about the Committee on Climate Change you may wish to visit their website www.theccc.org.uk.

Being the Chair of the Committee on Climate Change

Description of role The Chair of the Committee will be responsible for steering and developing the overall work of the Committee on Climate Change, while the Chief Executive manages the day to day running of the body. The Chair will be required to work up to 3 days per month in the first year then 2 days thereafter, while maintaining sufficient flexibility to respond to additional ad hoc duties. He or she will also represent the Committee and promote its strategy and overall direction.

The Chair will be the figurehead of the Committee. Key responsibilities will include:

• Chairing meetings and determining procedures for the Committee;

• Providing excellent vision and leadership;

• Overseeing the work of the Chief Executive providing appropriate support ensuring appropriate management and governance within the organisation;

• Representing the Committee externally and fostering close working relationships with key experts, including academics, business as well as foreign governments and intergovernmental institutions.

Qualities and experience required

Skills and Experience

• A track record of achieving results and providing strategic vision to lead a high-profile public organisation;

• An exceptional ability to communicate and build relationships at all levels alongside strong interpersonal skills, including the ability to negotiate, persuade and influence;

• Ability to ensure that the organisation's financial dealings are prudently and systematically accounted for, audited and publicly available; and

• A commitment to work according to Nolan’s seven principles of public life: selflessness, integrity, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership.

Expertise in specific areas Candidates should be able to demonstrate a good knowledge of the range of the Committee’s work and an understanding of applied economics and climate change policy8.

Terms and conditions of appointment

Period of appointment Public appointments are normally for five years and are restricted to two terms. The length of these terms will be determined by any statutory constraints or be a matter for decision by Ministers. In total, though, they cannot exceed ten years.

Re-appointments may be made subject to satisfactory performance assessment and will be at the discretion of Ministers.

The appointee may resign at any time by notice in writing to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State may terminate the appointment under certain conditions, which will be notified to the successful candidate on appointment.

The Committee on Climate Change working methods and procedures The Chair will be required to work up to 3 days per month in the first year then 2 days thereafter, while maintaining sufficient flexibility to respond to additional ad hoc duties.

Remuneration £1000 per day. Legitimate travel and other expenses will be fully reimbursed.

8 The Committee’s work covers business competitiveness, climate change policy, in particular its special impacts, climate science, economic analysis and forecasting, emissions trading, energy production and supply, financial investment and technology development and diffusion.

Location of Offices The Committee on Climate Change is supported by a secretariat which currently occupies premises in 7 Holbein Place, London, SW1W, 8NR

Applying for the role

The Commissioner for Public Appointments The Commissioner for Public Appointments regulates and monitors ministerial appointments to public bodies to ensure that they are made on merit after fair and open competition. More information about the role of the Commissioner and his Code of Practice is available from www.ocpa.gov.uk.

How to apply Odgers Berndtson are working with the Department of Energy and Climate Change on this recruitment. Applications should be submitted quoting reference number 37790. THE CLOSING DATE FOR APPLICATIONS IS 12 MIDNIGHT, 22 JANUARY 2012

All candidates are required to complete the following forms:

• Application form

• Diversity Monitoring Questionnaire

• Political Activity Questionnaire Candidates should complete the application form in full. You may apply for both Chair and Member positions but a separate application must be completed and submitted for each appointment.

Please note that CVs will not be accepted as an alternative to completing the application form, but they will be considered as supporting evidence. CVs should not exceed 3 pages. In order for us to progress your application please submit the following completed documentation per role:

The Selection Process

Selection Panel This appointment falls within the remit of the Commissioner for Public Appointments and the appointment will be made in accordance with the Commissioner’s Code of Practice.

The selection panel will be chaired by a senior official of the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Other members of the panel will include senior Government officials and Sheila Drew Smith, an Independent Public Appointments Assessor. The final decision on the appointment will be made jointly by the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, Scottish and Welsh Ministers and the relevant Northern Ireland Department.

Timetable Applications will be initially sifted by the panel, and longlisted candidates will be asked to attend a discussion with the Chair, Central Government Practice, Odgers Berndtson. Following from this, the panel will select a final shortlist of candidates who best demonstrate they have the specified qualities and experience, and they will be then invited to interview by the selection panel.

Interviews Interviews are to take place at the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s offices in central London. The interview should last in the region of one hour. If selected for interview, candidates will be asked to deliver a five minute presentation. This should be made without the use of visual aids or any other presentational aids. We will notify candidates of the topic in the invitation to interview.

Pre-selection scrutiny In line with Government proposals to increase Parliamentary scrutiny of appointments to key posts, the preferred candidate for the post of Chair may be required to appear before a Parliamentary select committee prior to appointment.

The Liaison Committee has set guidelines for committees on pre-appointment hearings. These state that questions should be focussed on the professional competence and personal independence of the candidate. The guidelines also note that hearings may include questions about the candidate’s past career and about the selection process for the post. Further information about the pre-selection scrutiny process can be found at http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/pre-appointmenthearings- guidance_tcm6-38909.pdf

Standards in Public Life You will be expected to demonstrate high standards of corporate and personal conduct.

Candidates must also confirm that they understand the standards of probity required by public appointees outlined in the “Seven Principles of Public Life” set out by the Committee on Standards in Public Life (see Annex A).

How we will handle your application

The advertisement or this application pack will give you details of this vacancy.

• We will acknowledge receipt of your application form, via email or post.

• Candidates will be notified by letter whether or not they have been longlisted.

• All candidates who reach shortlisting stage will be notified of the progress of their application personally by phone.

• References will be taken up if candidates are selected for interview.

• The selection panel interviews are planned take place before Easter 2012.

Equal opportunities This appointment will be governed by the principle of public appointment based on merit with independent assessment and transparency of process. Candidates may come from a wide range of backgrounds and experience although the successful candidate will need to have a proven track record in the areas outlined above.

The Equality Act 2010 defines a person as being disabled if they have a physical or mental impairment which has a substantial and long-term effect on their ability to carry out normal day to day activities. The UK Government and Devolved Administrations are committed to providing equal opportunities for all candidates during the selection process to enable us to select staff from a diverse pool of talent. Part of that commitment is that we guarantee an interview to any candidate who has a disability, as defined by the Act, and declares their disability in their application, provided that they meet the minimum (essential eligibility) criteria for the post(s) in question, as set out in the job advertisement.

All public appointments are based on the principle of merit.

The OCPA Complaints procedure Department of Energy and Climate Change regulates and monitors ministerial appointments to a number of public bodies. Government departments are required to follow the Commissioner’s Code of Practice when processing these public appointments.

The Commissioner is also charged with the responsibility for investigating complaints. The Commissioner will examine the process used to make an appointment or the manner in which an application for appointment was handled. The Commissioner will only investigate reasons for non-selection if it is felt that the Code has been breached. The Commissioner does not investigate how a body is run or the actions of its members.

If you feel you have reason to complain you should first direct your concerns to the CCC Sponsor Team at the Department of Energy and Climate Change.

If after receiving a comprehensive response you are still concerned, you can write to the Commissioner at the address below.

Departments are required to provide the Commissioner with a detailed report on all complaints received by them. If you would like more information on either the role of the Commissioner or the appointments process, please contact this office: The Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments (OCPA):

OCPA Civil Service Commission Ground Floor G/8 1 Horseguards Road London SW1A 2HQ

Telephone: 0207 271 0849

The Commissioner’s Principles The Code of Practice covers all ministerial appointments to the boards of executive and advisory non-departmental public bodies, health bodies, public corporations and nationalised industries. It also encompasses the Chairs of regulatory bodies.

Ministerial responsibility The ultimate responsibility for appointments is with ministers.

Merit All public appointments should be governed by the overriding principle of selection based on merit, by the well-informed choice of individuals who, through their abilities, experience and qualities, match the need of the public body in question.

Independent scrutiny No appointment will take place without first being scrutinised by an independent panel or by a group including membership independent of the department filling the post.

Equal opportunities Departments should sustain programmes to deliver equal opportunities principles.

Probity

Board members of public bodies must be committed to the principles and values of public service (see below) and perform their duties with integrity.

Openness and transparency The principles of open government must be applied to the appointments process; its working must be transparent and information must be provided about the appointments made.

Proportionality The appointments procedures need to be subject to the principle of proportionality, that is they should be appropriate for the nature of the post and the size and weight of its responsibilities.

A copy of the OCPA Complaints leaflet can be found at www.odgers.com/37790

Annex A

The seven principles of public life All candidates for public appointments are expected to demonstrate a commitment to, and an understanding of, the value and importance of the principles of public service. The seven principles of public life are:

Selflessness Holders of public office should act solely in terms of the public interest. They should not do so in order to gain financial or other benefits for themselves, their family or their friends.

Integrity Holders of public office should not place themselves under any financial or other obligation to outside individuals or organisations that might seek to influence them in the performance of their official duties.

Objectivity In carrying out public business, including making public appointments, awarding contracts, or recommending individuals for rewards and benefits, holders of public office should make choices on merit.

Accountability Holders of public office are accountable for their decisions and actions to the public and must submit themselves to whatever scrutiny is appropriate to their office.

Openness Holders of public office should be as open as possible about all the decisions and actions that they take. They should give reasons for their decisions and restrict information only when the wider public interest clearly demands it.

Honesty Holders of public office have a duty to declare any private interests relating to their public duties and to take steps to resolve any conflicts arising in a way that protects the public interest.

Leadership Holders of public office should promote and support these principles by leadership and example.

Annex 3: Candidate’s Curriculum Vitae

The Rt Hon Lord Deben PC

Current positions 1997 - Chairman, Sancroft International Ltd (Consultants in corporate responsibility)

1998 - Chairman, Valpak Ltd (Producer-responsibility compliance)

1998 - Trustee, Theodore Trust (Catholic education charity)

2002 - Trustee, British Architectural Library Trust (Library of RIBA, looked after by V&A Museum)

2003 - Chairman, Association of Independent Financial Advisers (Trade association)

2004 - Chairman, Veolia UK (Director 1997- 2004) (Non-regulated water company)

2007 - Non-executive Director, Catholic Herald (Newspaper)

2008 - Member, Board of Directors, Prince Albert II of Monaco Foundation (Environmental charity)

2010 - President, GLOBE International (The Global Legislators Organisation which seeks ambitious political leadership on issues of climate and energy security, land-use change and ecosystems)

2010 - Non-executive Director, Veolia Voda (Continental European water company)

2010 - Chairman, Forewind Ltd (Offshore wind company developing Dogger Bank)

2011 - Non-executive Director, Castle Trust Capital Ltd (Housing investment and mortgage company)

2011 - Trustee, Blue Marine Foundation (Marine conservation charity)

Previous roles 2007 – 2009 Non-executive Director, Sistema-Hals

2007 – 2008 Chairman, Quality of Life Commission

2004 – 2010 Director, Sovereign Reversions plc

1999 – 2004 Chairman, Oxford Commission for Sustainable Consumption

1998 – 2005 Chairman, Marine Stewardship Council

1997 – 2000 Chairman, Conservative Group for Europe

1979 – 1980 Chairman, Siemssen Hunter Ltd (Director 1973 – 1980)

1975 – 1981 Managing Director, EP Group of Companies

1967 – 1970 Member, ILEA Education Committee, Me

1969 – 1970 Editorial Coordinator, BPC Publishing

1962 Chairman, Federation of Conservative Students

1962 President, Cambridge Union

1961 Chairman, Cambridge University Conservative Association

Political roles 1983 – 2010 Member of Parliament for Suffolk Coastal

1979 – 1983 Member of Parliament for Eye

1970 – 1974 Member of Parliament for Lewisham West

1964 & 1966 Contested Greenwich

Ministerial Experience 1993 – 1997 Secretary of State for the Environment

1989 – 1993 Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries, Food

1988 – 1989 Minister of State, Department of Environment

1985 – 1988 Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries, Food

1984 – 1985 Paymaster-General

1983 – 1985 Chairman, Conservative Party

1983 – 1984 Minister of State, Department of Employment

1983 Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Employment

1981 – 1983 Lord Commissioner of HM Treasury

1981 Assistant Government Whip

1972 – 1974 Additional Vice Chairman, Conservative Party

1972 PPS to Minister of Agriculture

Articles Regular contribution to Country Life, Planning and national newspapers.

Awards Twice awarded the title "Parliamentarian who did most for the environment internationally" by the BBC.

Also described as "the best Environment Secretary we've ever had" by Friends of the Earth.

RSPB’s Medal of Honour – the first politician to be accorded this honour.

RIBA Honorary Fellow

Academic History Exhibitioner, Selwyn College, Cambridge

BA (Honours) History Selwyn College, Cambridge

Annex 4: Register of Interests

1: Directorships

• Chairman, Sancroft International Ltd (consultants in corporate responsibility and environmental, social, ethical and planning issues)

• Chairman, Veolia UK (formerly Vivendi UK) (water company)

• Non-executive Director, Veolia Voda (water company)

• Non-executive Chairman, Valpak Ltd (organisation for compliance with producer responsibility directives)

• Chairman, Association of Independent Financial Advisers

• Non-executive Director, Catholic Herald (newspaper)

• Chairman, Forewind (offshore wind company)

• Chairman, Corlan Hafren Limited (energy company) (resigned, 13 June 2012)

• Non-executive Director, Castle Trust Capital Ltd (housing investment and mortgage company)

2: Remunerated employment, office, profession etc.

• Income from articles written for: Catholic Herald, Country Life, Estates Gazette and Planning

• Income from chairing conferences

• The subjects in both cases above are usually property, sustainable development and religious issues. The commitments arise largely from my previous profession of journalism and all payments go to Sancroft International Ltd which provides research staff, information services and all other facilities

4: Shareholdings (b)

• Zero C Ltd (sustainable home build)

• Valpak Limited (environmental solutions)

4: Shareholdings (a)

• Sancroft International Ltd (consultancy; as above)

5: Land and property

• A residential and commercial property in London, owned by family

7: Overseas visits

• Visit to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, 14-19 June 2012, as Chairman of Globe International, to host and take part in discussions for Rio+20; travel and accommodation paid by Globe International

• Visit to Brussels, May 2011, as Chairman of Globe International, to launch legislative study; travel and accommodation paid by Globe International

8: Gifts, benefits and hospitality

• 100 tickets for flights on the London Eye, a gift from Julia Barfield and David Marks, Marks Barfield Architects, December 2010

10: Non-financial interests (a)

• President, Globe International (inter-parliamentary environment group)

• Member, Board of Directors, Prince Albert II of Monaco Foundation

10: Non-financial interests (c)

• Trustee, British Architectural Library Trust

10: Non-financial interests (d)

• Trustee, Blue Marine Foundation

10: Non-financial interests (e)

• Trustee, Theodore Trust

Formal Minutes

Tuesday 4 September 2012

Members present:

Mr Tim Yeo, in the Chair

Dan Byles John Robertson Barry Gardiner Laura Sandys Dr Phillip Lee Sir Robert Smith Albert Owen Dr Alan Whitehead Mr Christopher Pincher

Mr Tim Yeo declared interests, as listed in the Register of Members’ Interests, in renewable energy companies (Director of ITI Energy Limited; suppliers of gasification equipment; Director AFC Energy; company developing alkaline fuel cell technology; Director Eco City Vehicles plc; and Chairman of TMO Renewables Limited. Shareholdings in AFC Energy (share option) and Eco City Vehicles plc.).

Barry Gardiner declared a non-pecuniary interest, as listed in the Register of Members’ Interests, as a Vice- President of Globe International.

Sir Robert Smith declared interests, as listed in the Register of Members’ Interests, in the oil and gas industry, in particular a shareholding in Shell.

Draft Report (Pre-appointment hearing with the Government’s preferred candidate for Chair of the Committee on Climate Change), proposed by the Chair, brought up and read.

Ordered, That the draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.

Paragraphs 1 to 19 read and agreed to.

Annexes and Summary agreed to.

Resolved, That the Report be the Fourth Report of the Committee to the House.

Ordered, That the Chair make the Report to the House.

Ordered, That embargoed copies of the Report be made available, in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No. 134.

Written evidence was ordered to be reported to the House for printing with the Report.

[Adjourned till Tuesday 11 September at 10.00 am

Witnesses

Tuesday 4 September 2012 Page

The Rt Hon Lord Deben, John Gummer Ev 1

List of Reports from the Committee during the current Parliament

The reference number of the Government’s response to each Report is printed in brackets after the HC printing number.

Session 2010–12 First Report Emissions Performance Standards HC 523 (807) Second Report UK Deepwater Drilling–Implications of the Gulf of HC 450 (882) Mexico Oil Spill Third Report The revised draft National Policy Statements on HC 648 energy Fourth Report Electricity Market Reform HC 742 (1448) Fifth Report Shale Gas HC 795 (1449) Sixth Report Ofgem’s Retail Market Review HC 1046 (1544) Seventh Report A European Supergrid HC 1040 (1684) Eighth Report The UK’s Energy Supply: Security or HC 1065 (1813) Independence? Ninth Report Solar Power Feed-In Tariffs HC 1605 (1815) Tenth Report The EU Emissions Trading System HC 1476 Eleventh Report The Future of Marine Renewables in the UK HC 1624 Twelfth Report Consumption-Based Emissions Reporting HC 1646 First Special Report Low carbon technologies in a green economy: HC 455 Government Response to the Committee's Fourth Report of Session 2009-10 Second Special Report Fuel Poverty: Government Response to the HC 541 Committee's Fifth Report of Session 2009-10 Third Special Report The future of Britain’s electricity networks: HC 629 Government Response to the Committee’s Second Report of Session 2009–10

Session 2012–13 First Special Report The Future of Marine Renewables in the UK: HC 93 Government Response to the Committee's Eleventh Report of Session 2010-13 First Report Draft Energy Bill: Pre-legislative Scrutiny HC 275 Second Report The road to UNFCCC COP 18 and beyond HC 88 Second Special Report Consumption-Based Emissions Reporting: HC 488 Government Response to the Committee’s Twelfth Report of Session 2010-12 Third Report Low-Carbon Growth Links with China HC 529

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Energy and Climate Change Committee: Evidence Ev 1

Oral evidence

Taken before the Energy and Climate Change Committee on Tuesday 4 September 2012

Members present: Mr Tim Yeo (Chair)

Dan Byles John Robertson Barry Gardiner Laura Sandys Dr Phillip Lee Sir Robert Smith Albert Owen Dr Alan Whitehead Christopher Pincher ______

Examination of Witness

Witness: Rt Hon Lord Deben gave evidence.

Chair: Good afternoon, and welcome. Thank you I spoke with the authorities in both DECC and No. 10 very much for coming in. This is our second meeting as to what I should do about what interests I had that today, so we are well into the groove. might appear to be conflicting. As a result of that, first I think you asked to make an opening statement, but of all I have relinquished my chairmanship of Corlan before you do I would just like to draw attention to Hafren, which was the organisation designed to fight my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial for the barrage on the Severn. Secondly, I made the Interests, in particular to companies involving changes that I mentioned in my note to you in renewable energy, neither of which, for the record, is response, Mr Chairman, to your request as far as what eligible for or has business models assuming any Sancroft does. Of course, almost everything that it support from taxpayers or consumers. does has no connection with the Committee on Barry Gardiner: May I draw attention to my entry Climate Change, but there was one thing that I felt we in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests? I am ought to disengage from, and I said that. the vice-president of an organisation of which Lord Thirdly, if the Committee confirms my appointment, I Deben is president, GLOBE International, although would of course resign as chairman of Forewind, the post is unremunerated in any way. which is the organisation developing the wind farm Sir Robert Smith: I remind the Committee of my on the Dogger Bank. I act as a kind of impartial entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests independent, keeping four entirely different energy to do with the oil and gas industry, in particular a companies, each of which has got a quarter of the shareholding in Shell. ownership from each other and with each other, which is a fascinating thing to do, and I will miss doing that. Q1 Chair: I think that concludes that. Do you want You may say, “If these are so interesting and if you to carry on? are proposing to reduce your income, why should you Lord Deben: Thank you for allowing me to say want do this job?” I just wanted to say why. I want to something at the beginning—it will be very short. It do it because I do believe there is no other material is simply, first of all, to pay tribute to the previous threat to our world more important than climate Chair of the Committee on Climate Change, Adair change, and that therefore all of us have a duty to do Turner, and to the team itself—the Committee—for what we can to try to mitigate it and also to get the laying down what seems to me to be a most world to behave in a way that is likely to protect its remarkable basis for the future. Being involved as I future. I did that in my ministerial career. I just was in the creation of the Climate Change Act 2008, happened to look up again the foreword that I wrote that is exactly what we expected and hoped for, which for the first major document we did on climate was that there would be a degree of scientific and change, in which I said very clearly then that if we can economic understanding that would immediately gain “confine the impact of change within a containable the confidence of the nation, which I think we have; measure” we will act effectively, and if we cannot, the determination to have rigour in what was being “the effect could make the lives of our grandchildren said; and an absolute determination not to be led immeasurably more difficult and perhaps threaten the astray on to things that were nothing to do with the future of the planet itself.” That was back before Committee on Climate Change. I think that all of that Kyoto, so I have a long history of doing that. has stood the Committee in good stead, and none of Why do I think I could be more helpful, perhaps, than it would have been possible had it not been for David others? It is because I come from business; I have Kennedy and the team—a very remarkable team, the respect of business; my business in Sancroft helps often mentioned at the beginning of those documents businesses to improve their corporate responsibility that have been produced. and they would not ask me or my team—which is The second thing I wanted to say was that when it quite a large team—to do that unless they thought that was first suggested to me that I was likely to be one I understood the nature of business; but I also have an of the finalists, so to speak, in the appointment system, understanding of Whitehall and Westminster, which I cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-09-2012 16:53] Job: 023147 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023147/023147_o001_th_EnCC 4.8.12.xml

Ev 2 Energy and Climate Change Committee: Evidence

4 September 2012 Rt Hon Lord Deben think will be increasingly important as the stresses of social house building. Some of the ways in which they recession and the like bring these contrasting are hoping to finance that are particularly interesting. differences and arguments to the fore. So that is why I want to do it. Q5 Chair: In your judgment, doing better means having more ambitious targets? Q2 Chair: Thank you. Do you think in what the Lord Deben: No, it means having more ambitious Committee on Climate Change has done so far in its targets and meeting them. I do not think there is any four-year history there is anything that could have point having targets you are not trying to meet. I have been improved? to say that, in some areas, they have taken more Lord Deben: I do not think it is like that, Mr seriously the urgency of this issue. For me, the key Chairman, because I think that what it has done is to concern is urgency. Your Committee has said again do first things first. Until it had established its and again in its reports that there are areas where we scientific and economic credentials and a reputation really have to do things more quickly. If there are for robust thought, I do not think it could move on to things we can learn from Scotland, I would like to other things. But if you mean, “Are there things that do so. it could now do?”, yes, I do think there are some. First of all, I believe that in the Act itself it was mandated Q6 Chair: To be precise, and your predecessor was to have considerable public involvement in its extremely rigorous in his comments on these issues, thinking and in its actions. I think that is something what are the more ambitious targets in Scotland on that needs to be improved, because I do not think we which they are making faster progress than other parts have got many of those things over. I have noticed, of the UK? frankly, in the people who have come up to me to Lord Deben: The particular one that I am attracted to congratulate me on my nomination a surprising lack is the desire to move on with the lower carbon of understanding as to what the Committee on Climate economy. I am not being imprecise because I do not Change is, and that, I think, is something that does want to follow my predecessor; I am being imprecise need to be attended to. because I want to be broad in my feeling. What the Secondly, we are moving into a different stage now, Scottish Government has managed to do is give the and if I look at the members of the Committee—I do impression to the whole community that climate hope we can keep a real sense of continuity; this is a change demands action right across the board in a very, very good team, and similarly with David connected way. That is a very important lesson to Kennedy, and I would want to build on that rather learn. It seems to me that one of the problems in than change it—I wonder whether we do not have England is that climate change appears to demand a need for somebody who knows about behavioural action on specifics. We very often have a silo science, because increasingly the problem is going to approach. Somehow or other, and I would like to get be to help people change behaviour. That is itself a to the bottom of how they have done this because I science. There is a great deal of knowledge about that, think it is important, they have managed to get a and I do not think that at the moment any member of feeling that this is something that impinges on the Committee would say that that was their speciality. everything that they are doing. That isn’t precise, no, I would look to see if that could be improved. but they have created that atmosphere, and I want to The third thing I would hope to encourage is an even find out whether we could do that more effectively greater connection with the nationalities. It seems to elsewhere. me that in a situation where Scotland is doing better than the rest of the United Kingdom there is a great Q7 Chair: So there wasn’t actually a target that you role for the Committee to learn from and share the had in mind? best practice. There are particular issues in Northern Lord Deben: No, except that their targets are, in some Ireland with the all-Ireland policy, as well as a concern areas, more precise and higher—in some other areas, for a Northern Irish policy. they are perhaps not so precise or high—but it is not There are some areas there that I would like to see, that that has really made the difference. The thing that but they are continuations of what has been done, not has made the difference is that, when you talk to fundamental changes. I certainly would not have done people in the Scottish Government and the Scottish any of those things before what has been done was Parliament, you get the feeling that they recognise that done. this is something that should be said at all points whenever you are making Government decisions. This Q3 Chair: What are the criteria by which Scotland is Committee has said that about a number of its doing better? dealings with the United Kingdom Government. Lord Deben: Simply, in a number of areas, they have more ambitious targets. They have moved rather Q8 Dan Byles: Lord Deben, you talk about having quicker in a number of areas, and they have some more ambitious targets and hitting them. You will be imaginative ideas, and I think we should share those aware that some people are concerned about unilateral ideas. action and unilaterally tougher targets in the UK perhaps creating additional cost to UK business. Q4 Chair: Give us some examples. Do you see that balance as part of what your Lord Deben: Some of the work they are doing in the Committee would look at, or do you see the construction industry and house building, particularly Committee’s role to be to push one side of the on putting higher-quality environmental rules into argument, as it were, on the need for robust targets cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-09-2012 16:53] Job: 023147 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023147/023147_o001_th_EnCC 4.8.12.xml

Energy and Climate Change Committee: Evidence Ev 3

4 September 2012 Rt Hon Lord Deben and it being for other people to put the counter- to do it in the most effective way so that it is cost argument about the costs for industry and effective. After all, I come from the cost-effective competitiveness? Or will you seek to achieve that world, and that is what I believe in. I am a business balance internally? man, and of course I want to do it in a cost-effective Lord Deben: I always find that argument to be a bad way and do not want to do things just for the sake of way to start the discussion, and I am sure you have them. It is also about knowing that if we can get our found the same, because it suggests that there is economy into this form—not before other people, inevitably a conflict between green policies and because some other people have done better than we economic growth. My own view is that there is no have, but certainly as well as other people—we will such conflict. Indeed, the opposite is true: unless we guarantee growth. But we will not do any of that grow in a green way, we won’t grow. I think our unless the business world in Britain is clear about problem is that we have been very bad about what we are doing. explaining that to people. We have done something My biggest criticism at the moment is that there is an that I think is offensive, which is to shrug off any uncertainty. Again, it is to do with what you said when questions that are put up, as if people are in some way you reviewed the electricity market. The real problem naive or ridiculous to come forward with them. is that unless you are certain about things, and unless Secondly, I am absolutely and clearly a believer in people know where they are going to be in 10 years’ free enterprise. It seems to me that although the time, they are not going to invest for 10 years or 20 Government have to set the framework in which years. What you have been pursuing is exactly what I business can operate, and NGOs have to set the would hope to do. standards and targets and press us forward all the time, it will be business that delivers the goods; no one else Q9 Albert Owen: Can I take you back to the remark is going to do that. So we have to ensure that business you made about best practice in devolved recognises the connection between green growth and Administrations and meeting targets? You gave the growth itself. example of Scotland. As a Welsh MP, I am sure that That leads to the third point, which is that the most the Welsh Assembly will say that it has ambitious important thing is for people to know where they are. targets; some people would say too ambitious. Are I think the damaging thing is when business does not you suggesting that Scotland has met those targets know the terms in which it is going to operate. About already? Are they just talking the talk? three weeks ago, I listened to the chairman of a major My second question—if you could answer them both America-based company—one of the world’s biggest together—is how will you advise the Scottish companies—speaking in London. Administration and other Administrations in your I had a copy of the speech; it is always interesting to role? The UK will be measured as the UK on climate follow what is in the written speech and what the change in many ways. Will you be having regular person actually says. He interpolated a bit on climate meetings with individual Ministers—you mentioned change. In what he interpolated, he said that business joined-up thinking in the Scottish Government—or has got to recognise that climate change is a business will you be talking with the First Ministers of each of issue, because unless we do something about climate the devolved Administrations? change, our businesses are not going to be here. For Lord Deben: I am sure that in Ynys Môn there are all him, the question was not a contradictory one, but was sorts of examples of people who say that the targets part of the same issue. I do not think that I am are too ambitious, but that is true about any valuable prepared to make the distinction. thing that you do, and one understands that. Wales has The fourth thing is specifically in terms of the rest of both some important things to show other people and the world. As you know, I am president of GLOBE some particular difficulties. The agricultural issues International, and I have had the opportunity of, in will be very important in climate change, for example. some sense, masterminding the document that we now They are not covered by targets at this moment, but produce every year, which is a comparative document they will have to play a really important part in cutting showing what other countries are doing. The first emissions. It will be particularly difficult in Wales thing is that we have a terrible view in this country with its particular agricultural mix. that somehow we are the only people doing anything. What I am really trying to signal is that this has to be Actually, when you look around the world—if you a United Kingdom activity, but it also must be one in look at what China, Mexico or South Africa are which the devolved Administrations play a full part. doing—you begin to see a real pattern arising. Obviously, in dealing with the devolved We have been able to influence those people because Administrations, it is proper practice to deal first with of what we are doing. In that sense, you do have to the First Ministers, because they are the people who, be ahead of the turn, if you are going to do that. In in the law, have the responsibility for both nominating your own report on our relationships with China, you to the Committee on Climate Change and indeed make the point that, apart from a certain lack of focus, agreeing to its chairman. I would hope, however, that the thing that has held us back is where it does not we would have a close enough relationship to— look as if we are being sufficiently demanding and have sufficient real ambition. I think that is Q10 Albert Owen: Sorry. My understanding was tremendously important, because I have worked that, in Wales, it was the Environment Minister who closely with the Chinese Government. nominated you. It is a mixture of knowing that we have to lead in Lord Deben: I think that, constitutionally, the way in order to have others follow and knowing that we have which it is expressed, as far as I understand, is that it cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-09-2012 16:53] Job: 023147 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023147/023147_o001_th_EnCC 4.8.12.xml

Ev 4 Energy and Climate Change Committee: Evidence

4 September 2012 Rt Hon Lord Deben is the First Minister. However, I have no doubt that for anyone else—to declare whether those particular people can devolve the decision. Whoever it is, I conditions have been met, and unless they have been would hope that we would get a close enough met there is not a question of having in any sense a relationship to be able to talk to all those people, return to the budget. because this is a tough business. The more that we The problem with the budget is very simple: the understand the toughness and the difficulties of the budget is as it is to achieve what is statutorily devolved Administrations, the better. necessary, which is to cut our emissions by 80% by 2050. If you are going to do that, the steps on the way Q11 Albert Owen: You said that Scotland had good are very important. We come back to the issue that if practice and that it is likely to meet its targets. Are you do not do early enough what you have to do, you you suggesting that the targets for England aren’t right only push it on to the next period, so I would be very or aren’t ambitious enough? conscious of that responsibility. Lord Deben: If I may say so, you are not going to I am also very conscious that people often disagree press me to say, “They’re better here and we’re better with each other because of a lack of information. I there and they’re doing that.” would be keen to ensure that everybody was on the same page if we were to have that discussion. I will Q12 Albert Owen: You did. certainly be ensuring that I keep away from any of the Lord Deben: I am not. I am merely saying that I think newspapers’ suggestions that there is this side and that there is a spirit in Scotland that is partially driven by side and the other side and that he does not like that some targets that are more ambitious, but it is one and so on. It seems to me that I clearly have to fundamentally an understanding right across the be unconnected with that. Scottish Government. It is not just about this Scottish I would seek to find ways of defending the Government; I think it was true—I wasn’t close to fundamentals all the time, defending the independence it—previously, so it is not a new thing. It is not a all the time and insisting on the role of the CCC all the party-political thing. It seems to be something that we time. If there are ways, however, of making it easier to could learn a lot from. meet the same ends in the same time scale, then of course one would look for those. Q13 Chair: On that point, this will not hold the process up, but it would be useful if you could just Q15 Sir Robert Smith: You have already touched send us a note about which targets you think that in part in your opening remarks on dealing with the Scotland has got right and that England has not. perception that people may have of you having a Lord Deben: Of course. stronger background on the environment than in business. In your role, you will obviously have to Q14 Barry Gardiner: In response to Mr Byles, you communicate with NGOs, business and Ministers. resisted being drawn into what you obviously saw as Will you expand on where you see that public a false dichotomy between business interests and perception of your abilities and how you would gain environmental interests, and I understand that. None the confidence of the business community? the less, what Mr Byles was talking about in terms of Lord Deben: That may be a perception, but if it is a conflict in this area is very real. One only needs to perception it is one that has arisen unconnected with remember the conflict that there was in Cabinet over the facts. Until I got into Parliament I was a business the 4th Carbon Budget. In 2014, if your appointment man. I ended up as the chairman of a medium-sized is ratified, that 4th Carbon Budget will be back for publicly-quoted company. I have earned my living all reconsideration by the Government. It may well be my life in that way. Since I left office, I have spent that there is conflict and very strident disagreement, my time working with some of the biggest companies at least among politicians, as to whether that budget in the world and they rely on my discretion, my ability should be implemented and followed. and my contribution. Of course, that is increasingly I want to tease out from you what your role, as chair being done by my team; I have a big team of people of the Committee on Climate Change, will be in such who do that. a situation of political conflict where there are real, There is no doubt that people in the business world genuine disagreements around the work of the have been willing to respect the fact that I want Committee. What skills will you bring to bear? Which business to succeed. I want it to succeed not only way will you be facing in your interlocutions either because I happen to hold that view in life, but also with Government or with the media in order to because, as I said to Mr Byles earlier, unless business represent the Committee as chair? succeeds, we will not win this battle. Lord Deben: First of all, I am utterly committed to We have to ensure that the development of a the independence of the Committee and the fact that sustainable economy and a low-carbon future is done the Committee reports to Parliament. It does not report in a way so that business can contribute fully to it, to the Government, to DECC or to anyone else. It because otherwise it will not happen. That is my view reports to Parliament. Therefore, I would be bound and it is widely known. I have never found it a first to uphold that independence. The situation about question in dealing with the business community. the possible return to the 4th Carbon Budget is much Although there may be some who, perhaps because more narrowly defined than has been put about. It is of their closeness to Parliament, think of me as an quite clear that it can only be returned to in any environmentalist, outside of Parliament that is not extensive way if certain clear situations have arisen. really the truth. Indeed, I have to sometimes remind It will be for the Committee on Climate Change—not the NGOs that we are in the real world and not in a cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-09-2012 16:53] Job: 023147 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023147/023147_o001_th_EnCC 4.8.12.xml

Energy and Climate Change Committee: Evidence Ev 5

4 September 2012 Rt Hon Lord Deben world where we wave a wand and all the things that Ministers or your ability to persuade Departments to we would like to happen will happen. So I will just achieve what they need to achieve. have to go on being what I am—a business man. Lord Deben: No, I don’t, and if I did then I would not have put my name forward, because the Q16 Sir Robert Smith: Obviously, the role is a independence of this Committee is crucially communications role in many ways, about the important. I have even thought about whether one importance of the message coming from the should sit as a Cross Bencher in the House of Lords, Committee. Do you not think, therefore, that there but it seemed to me that that would be a sort of might be some concern among commentators who tokenism, which I am not given to. People know may be hostile to what is coming from the Committee where I come from and, even when I was Secretary and try to paint it as, “Well, he would say that, of State for the Environment, a whole lot of wouldn’t he, because he came into the role with a organisations—whether the BBC or Friends of the strong environmental connection?”? Earth—complimented me in the sense of saying that Lord Deben: Sir Robert, there are those who will try I was not party political on this issue. I therefore do to rubbish any attempt to deal with climate change, not think that that would make a difference, and as I wherever it comes from. They are the same people— said, I do not like tokenism. you and I could write that list without any difficulty, and I doubt whether there would be a name left off it Q19 John Robertson: What guidance have you been if we did it now—who have really got a conflict of given by DECC on dealing with the potential conflicts interest, because that is how they proceed in their of interest? public life; it is part of their persona. They are going Lord Deben: I am sorry; I did not catch the first bit. to attack anyone who is chairman of this Committee, and they will find different ways of doing it. Q20 John Robertson: What guidance have you been All I say is that, if they try to attack me on the basis given by DECC on dealing with the potential conflicts that I am not very close to understanding business and of interest? have come from business, then they will find that an Lord Deben: Well, Mr Robertson, it was not so much attack that will not stick because it is not true and, in by DECC as by No. 10, it being not a departmental the end, truth will out. But I do not think that any of Committee, but I went through all my interests and us should kid ourselves. As these things become more we agreed what were the ones that seemed to have controversial and as individual decisions are made, we some connection here. I have followed that entirely— must not kid ourselves that those who are indeed, I have gone slightly further. professionally opposed to climate change and do not believe it is happening will not cause as much trouble Q21 John Robertson: How would you deal with as possible, but that’s life and we have to face that. accusations that perhaps your Committee’s advice was being influenced by your own or your family’s financial interests—or, for that matter, No. 10’s? Q17 Laura Sandys: Lord Deben, you have a five- year term, which will take us across a general election. Lord Deben: I do not think there will be any financial We do not know what the result of that will be, but it or other interests that will remain when I have completed the things that I have already told the might mean a change in Government. On that basis, Committee. My family does not have any financial or do you feel that your party political affiliation might other interests of the kind that could possibly come cause communication with Ministers and your ability into this. Of course, if something should arise in the to galvanise Government and different Departments to future—something that I have not come across; be a challenge? something that somebody starts to do that I did not Lord Deben: I am very lucky in the sense that, first know about—I will take the same rather tough of all, when I ceased to be the Secretary of State for measures on this. the Environment, the incoming Labour Government There is an issue, isn’t there? If you are going to have asked me to go to Kyoto, and I was not only very somebody do a job like this effectively, they have got closely involved with Lord Prescott at that time but to know something about it. If they know something also was allowed by him to do many of the public about it and they care about it, it is likely that they statements on his behalf. I do not think that one would have done things in that area before. You can always feel that he is a pushover for Tories, but that was okay. have somebody who does not have any interests at all, I was also lucky enough to be asked to help with the but they probably do not know anything about it, or work done under Mrs Beckett and Ed Miliband—all I at least they are not enthusiastic enough to have am saying is that I had their confidence—and one of bothered to do anything in that area. my two sponsors is former Labour Cabinet Minister So there is a balance to be got, but I think by Chris Smith. I do not think that in this area I am removing myself from the energy companies of which thought of, and people certainly should not think of I speak and changing the relationships on the question me, as party political—in this area I think that I have that I specifically wrote to the Committee about, and established a reputation that shows I am not. because of the fact that my family is in a position of not having any interest here, I do not think anybody Q18 Laura Sandys: Obviously, the previous could properly say—it may be that there are some chairman was a Cross Bencher and very much seen as people who will say it in any case—that I have any being politically independent, but you do not feel that interests that would pervert my views. 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16 years and was criticised and attacked for most labour. We make sure their fire doors aren’t locked things, but the one thing I was never criticised or and all those sorts of issues in many areas. We also attacked for was bringing personal interests into the try to help people deal with things like obesity and decisions that I made. how they should think about their formulations in that area. So it is a specialist business with nearly 20 Q22 John Robertson: I probably did some of the people involved all the time, and it is growing. I attacking. couldn’t possibly do most of the things that it does You will appreciate that your Committee will be a because I am not a specialist. In that business, no one very important one, particularly to this Select identified anything that they thought was a conflict, Committee, and we look forward to working with you but there was this one thing that I mentioned to you in the years ahead, but we do not want to see the CCC in my letter. That was something that, simply because being undermined by people, particularly if you are it involved talking to DECC, I thought was better not making important decisions that may go against the done in future. That is why I did that. Government of the day. We want to make sure that The other two things were both energy-related. People we are happy with what your Committee is going to might say that it would be difficult to discuss tidal bring forward and we can support it as well, because contribution to our future energy needs if I were the I believe that this Committee has worked well with the chairman of Corlan Hafren. I do not deny my belief CCC in the past and we want to do that in the future. that tidal is an important part of the future, but it is Lord Deben: I very much hope we will. When much better not to be connected with it. Similarly with thinking about coming in front of this Committee— Forewind, which is an offshore wind company, people which is quite frightening if you have never properly might think that I was more inclined to be supportive done it before, as in my case—I reminded myself that of offshore wind. Therefore, I will resign from that the very first connection I ever had with Select chairmanship. Of course, in both those cases, no Committees was a public argument with Enoch longer having any interest—when I say resign, I have Powell, who did not believe in the setting up of also gotten rid of any shares that I may have had, so Select Committees. that I am totally unconnected—it seems to me that I remember the argument that we had. He suggested one is in a stronger position because I understand the that I did not understand how Parliament worked—I problems of offshore wind farms. was a relatively new Member of Parliament at the time—and I said, “Well, that may be, but the thing Q25 Albert Owen: I have known you a long time. I that I have noticed from the outside is that Parliament know your interests, and I know your experience, but is very often criticised because its Members lack the all I am saying is that you were sitting down with the ability to get down into the detail of issues so that Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and they can give proper advice. It seems to me that the you are saying, “I shall stand aside from these three Select Committee is exactly that, and can therefore companies.” Although you don’t think there is a real perform,” say I to Enoch Powell, “a very important interest, that is the way you have described it. What task.” about some of the others? I think that is a fair question I did not get anywhere with him on that, but I think to ask about the water companies, for instance. There that I was right and I think the Committee has a really are environmental and climate change implications important role to play. I would hope that the there. Committee would feel it possible to spare time to Lord Deben: I have looked at the water company. I enable me, if I am confirmed, to meet with you when am chairman of a water company, but the major job it is convenient, to talk about the issues that are clearly of the water company is putting in meters for other of mutual interest. water companies. It does not own any water companies any longer; it sold those. If you look at Q23 Albert Owen: Like you, I want to get a proper what it does, it really has no connection at all. And if perspective on the potential conflicts of interest here. I thought it even had a remote connection, I would When you were shortlisted, you had a discussion with make that change. I think this job is too important to No. 10, but would the Department have— jeopardise in that way, but I can assure you that I have Lord Deben: And with DECC, yes. been through that very carefully.

Q24 Albert Owen: We have had a letter from the Q26 Albert Owen: And they are very happy that Secretary of State at DECC, stating the procedure. your stepping down from those three companies is Areas were identified that might be a potential conflict sufficient and that you are not breaking any of the of interest, and you volunteered to step aside on those. Nolan principles or other Cabinet Office diktat? Can you remind us of those ones—I did listen to your Lord Deben: They have accepted that what I have opening statement—and why you think you should done is precisely what ought to be done in both cases. remain on the others? I need some clarification. Lord Deben: Most of the things I do have no Q27 Albert Owen: You said, and I will finish on this, connection with the Committee on Climate Change. that you are giving up a lot of financial interests by As I explained, Sancroft, the company that I chair and stepping down from those companies. This is an issue set up, does all sorts of things, and of course it is not that was raised earlier, but, politically, would you, for that I do it. Working in three continents, we help instance, still take the Whip in the House of Lords people do such things as getting their supply chain and be whipped on environmental issues? That is an right to ensure that they don’t have improperly paid important question. You said that you want to remain cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-09-2012 16:53] Job: 023147 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023147/023147_o001_th_EnCC 4.8.12.xml

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4 September 2012 Rt Hon Lord Deben a Tory till you die. Those are not quite your words, course on all occasions one should do that. I hope I but I am paraphrasing you. If there were a very narrow have always done it on other things in any case. I have vote in the House of Lords on some of these issues, always been very careful about any interests that I what would you do? may have otherwise. Lord Deben: Can I just say two things about that? First, I did not say that I will remain a Tory until I Q32 Albert Owen: But you are going to retain the die, although I suspect I will. I merely said that I do Whip. not think it is right to pretend that you are other than Lord Deben: I am going to continue to sit as a you are. I do not think people trust you if you do that. Conservative. Therefore, that is why I do not do so. Your question would be better asked of my Whip, Q33 Dr Whitehead: We mentioned the fourth carbon because he knows perfectly well that I haven’t budget and the fact that it has been adopted. We also followed the Whip on environmental matters ever know that current policies will clearly not be sufficient since I have been there, so it will not make any to deliver the emissions savings to meet that fourth difference. carbon budget. What do you think is the main area, if it is required now, to match emissions to that budget? Q28 Albert Owen: I don’t often follow the Whips And what do you consider the Committee on Climate on certain issues either, but that is not the question I Change’s role in keeping our noses to the grindstone am asking. The question I am asking is whether you as far as getting to 2050 is concerned? would not vote on something specifically because you Lord Deben: The most immediate thing, of course, is think there is a conflict of interest. That is a direct the EMR. Getting that right and making that effective question. If there are issues on energy and the is very important. We also have a responsibility before Government are pushing something through, would the end of the year to bring shipping and aviation you abstain on principle because you are the within the system. Although that does not make an Chairman of this Committee? immediate impact, because it is already allowed for in Lord Deben: If I thought that a particular proposal the way in which the targets have been set in future, was damaging to the environment and particularly to it is still a crucially important symbol and it needs to our battle against climate change, I would not abstain; be brought there. Indeed, it is quite difficult to argue I would vote against it. I do not think you can abstain in EUTS and other circumstances unless we have on issues such as this. done that. That is also true. On the issue of EMR, we have to ensure that we cover Q29 Albert Owen: But you are still going to take the the serious problem, which was not true three years Whip in the House of Lords. ago. That is the divorce between those for whom these Lord Deben: The Committee on Climate Change does issues are really about energy security and those for not say very much about whether we should have a whom these issues are really about emission smaller number of constituencies and whether we reduction. For some time, we have been able to should do a whole range of things. I think I can discuss these as if these were the two same things, Dr perfectly reasonably take the Whip. Whitehead. I think you have said in the past, and I certainly believe it, that you must never use the wrong Q30 Albert Owen: I understand that you are excuse for what you are trying to do. You must enjoying this knockabout. I don’t mean it to be like actually say what you are trying to do. We are not that. What I am saying is that your predecessor was a trying to do this primarily for energy security, Cross Bencher and did not align himself with a party although energy security is a crucial thing, but for the Whip. You have said that you will remain a long-term energy security, which is to be able to run Conservative Member of the House of Lords. I am our society in the way we want to run it at a cost that suggesting that on environment issues, would you will not destroy the planet. consider not voting because of your role? I am not a puritan; I don’t want a miserable life; I Lord Deben: I think I am going a little further than don’t take the open-toed sandals and the idea that we you are suggesting. I think that on environmental, as would all be morally better if we were colder. I have on all other issues, I shall make up my own mind as always thought that was an unhelpful way of looking to what I wish to do. As far as the environment is at these things. It is still true to say that there are concerned, I have a record of voting in a way involved some people who have veered off the necessary steps, entirely in what I thought was right for the because they now think that there are other ways of environment rather than any Whip that I have had. I achieving energy security. That is going to be one of shall continue to do that. It would be foolish to do the central issues. The role of gas, particularly in the otherwise. I do not think that merely abstaining is present world, is going to be a very crucial one to get satisfactory. right. That is why getting the terms of the EMR right is crucial. Q31 Albert Owen: Okay. How about making a Dr Whitehead: I must confess to wearing open-toed statement that you will not vote on this because there sandals on my recent holiday. might be potential conflict with being chairman? Lord Deben: It was not a personal attack, I assure Lord Deben: I would certainly do that. Yes, of course you. I would. 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You said earlier that unless we grow in a green way, straightforward natural sciences, but the science of we are not going to grow. But I am sure that you are economics and, in my view, behavioural science, is fully conversant with the discussion on growth itself. crucial. The report that was done last year by Ipsos How would you define green growth under those MORI for the Department for Business, Innovation circumstances? and Skills on the public’s appreciation of science is Lord Deben: At the heart of it, it is that phrase that I very interesting. Nearly 80% of the public interviewed think is useful: doing more with less. One of the were willing to know more about science, wanted to things that we have to learn is that we are a world of know more about it and felt themselves not finite resources. If we are going to continue to have satisfactorily given the tools to make these decisions standards of living to which we have become and to be supportive of scientific knowledge. Only accustomed, and other people wish to become 20% had a deep-seated opposition to the whole accustomed, we can deliver that only by using fewer question of science. This we really have to break resources. We have had 200 to 250 years of through. People have to be able to access this, because productivity improvements largely by reducing the only in that way can we get the sort of society that number of people. We are not short of people, but we increasingly finds technological ways to produce more are very short of resources. We have done that by with less. using and raiding our resources to a large degree. My problem in this is that I often find that Q35 Chair: Lord Turner expressed concern that the environmentalists have done damage to their case by Government’s emissions performance standard might talking about people or about running out of things. risk too much gas-fired generation instead of lower That is not the issue. The issue is, in a world in which carbon investment. What do you think about that? resources are finite, we have a responsibility to use Lord Deben: I would entirely agree with Lord them as effectively as we can. The quicker we have a Turner’s comments and indeed supported them at the green economy, the more we will be doing these time. It is a temptation that we have to ensure is not things at a lower price, with less likelihood of given into. That comes back to the issue that I raised shortage with a greater ability to deliver. Therefore, with Dr Whitehead, which is that we have to that is where the growth will come from. If we go on distinguish between the demands of energy security relying on, let’s say, rare earths to a point that we run and the demands of reducing emissions in a low- out of them, we become puppets to those who have carbon economy. The more that we can seek to have those resources. It is in that whole area that I see the carbon capture and storage, the more we are able to growths. We have to grow, because we are going to use gas. The less we have that, although gas will play have to feed 9 billion people. They are not going to a part, we cannot have a situation in which gas makes want to be fed in a subsistence way, and they are not it impossible for us to meet the target. That comes going to want to be housed in a subsistence way, nor back to something that you yourself have talked about, do we have a moral right to demand that they are. which is infrastructure. I do say to those who are sceptical about climate If you create infrastructure to meet an interim change that, really, there is no need to argue about problem, at the end of that problem, you still have that climate change, because we have to do all these things infrastructure. That continues to drive your policy, so anyway if we are going to meet a world that has 9 you have to be careful about saying, “For the short billion people. What we have to do for climate term, we can do this, and we will do the other later change, we have to do in any case. Therefore, if, on.” Getting that balance right was a warning that within that, we are going to have the growth we need, Adair Turner was right to make. it has to be green. In other words, it has to use fewer Chair: Okay. Does anyone have any other points that and fewer scarce resources to create more and more. they want to raise? All right. Thank you very much Technology and science are going to be crucial to that. for your time. I come back to the Committee on Climate Change Lord Deben: Thank you. itself. The importance of the science, not just

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TSO@Blackwell and other Accredited Agents © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 Pre-appointment hearing This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament Licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/ with the Government’s ISBN 978 0 215 04829 5 preferred candidate for Chair of the Committee on Climate Change

Fourth Report of Session 2012–13

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Taken before the Energy and Climate Change Committee on Tuesday 4 September 2012

Members present: Mr Tim Yeo (Chair)

Dan Byles John Robertson Barry Gardiner Laura Sandys Dr Phillip Lee Sir Robert Smith Albert Owen Dr Alan Whitehead Christopher Pincher ______

Examination of Witness

Witness: Rt Hon Lord Deben gave evidence.

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