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Collated Commentary for 2001-07

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ANSTEORRAN COLLEGE OF HERALDS Collated Commentary on ILoI 0107 Unto the Ansteorran College of Heralds does Estrill Swet, Retiarius Pursuivant, make greetings. For information on commentary submission formats or to receive a copy of the collated commentary, you can contact me at: Deborah Sweet 824 E 8th, Stillwater, OK 74074 405/624-9344 (before 10pm) [email protected] Commenters for this issue: Namron - Ld. Tadhg macAedain uiChonchobhair Da'ud - Da'ud ibn Auda, al-Jamal Herald Gawain of Miskbridge – Green Anchor Herald Arbalest - I am using the online O&A through March 2001 Elfsea - Wilim Penbras, Timothy of Glastonbury, Anéžka z Rožmitála, Cassandra Palfrey, Rebekah of Newcastle, Yakko, Wakko, Dot. All entries checked against 9th Edition Ordinary. Magnus von Lübeck - of Raven's Fort sends commentary on ILoI July 2001. Items checked through February 2001. Gwenllian ferch Maredudd - All armory has been checked for conflict using the on-line Ordinary. Items for which I had no comments and found no conflicts have been omitted. Stargate - Alden, Cyniric, Griffin, Hillary, Kathri (scribe), Mahee, and Medb with the assistance of Mariah, Ailich, and Dunchad. Conflict checks were made with the online O&A on the Ansteorran server as of July 11 through August 8,2001. All names were checked for conflict and none were found. Device checks and other sources are noted on the individual entries. (We're still not commenting on every item yet.) Collated Commentary on IloI 0107 1) Adelaide de Bourbon (Adlersruhe) New device. Name submitted in the May 2001 LoI. Argent, semy-de lys vert, a panther passant guardant sable incensed gules. Namron [Device] No conflicts found. Arbalest [Device] Conflict with William the Silent January 1973: Or, a natural panther passant guardant sable. One CD for changes to the field. Elfsea [Device] They have gaps in the semy behind the panther. No Conflicts Found. Gwenllian [Device] I find the arrangement of the fleurs-de-lys odd. They are so regularly spaced on most of the shield and then are entirely missing behind the top portion of the panther. The device is close to but clear of Eleonora van den Bogarde, “[Fieldless] A panther passant facing to dexter sable spotted in various tinctures and incensed proper,” with CDs for fielded v. fieldless armory and the addition of the strewn charges. No conflicts found. Stargate [Device] No conflict found. 2. Agrippina Argyra (Bjornsborg) Resubmitted badge. Name registered 11/99. Purpure, a tower between five compass stars in annulo Or. Namron [Badge] No conflicts found. Da'ud [Badge] Purpure, a tower between five compass stars in annulo Or. Usually, SCA blazons an object as "between" discrete objects and as "within" a shaped group of charges (like, say, an annulet). Consider Roland O'Donnell, Purpure, a tower within an orle of lions rampant Or. There is certainly a CD for the change in type of the secondary charges. There is also probably a CD (per RfS X.4.f.) for the difference between five and, presumably, eight or more secondary charges. Elfsea [Badge] No Conflicts Found. Magnus [Badge] Clear of Roland O'Donnell December 1992: Purpure, a tower within an orle of lions rampant Or. One CD for change of type of secondary and a second for number. An orle of charges equates to a semy under precedents and usually involves 9 or more which is a CD from 5. Gwenllian [Badge] The badge is close to but clear of Roland O’Donnall, Purpure, a tower within an orle of lions rampant Or, with CDs for type and arrangement (and possibly the number) of the secondaries. No conflicts found. Stargate [Badge] No conflict found. 3. Anne Elizabeth Ross (Steppes) New Device. Name submitted in the May 2001 LoI. Azure, on a lozenge argent, a Scottish thistle proper, a chief embattled argent. Namron [Device] No conflicts found. Gawain [Device] There’s nothing here to make this specifically a Scottish thistle: in fact, appearing on other than Scottish royal armory in period would suggest the device is anything but Scottish. Elfsea [Device] No Conflicts Found. Argument on whether the display of the Thistle on the Lozenge runs afoul of the fact that a Lozenge is also a form of Heraldic Display, like having an Argent banner with a gules cross on a device. While not official you might reference Dame Elsbeth’s draft precedents on this matter. Magnus [Device] A thistle proper is vert with a bloom purpure. Gwenllian [Device] I see no need to blazon this as a Scottish thistle rather than as just a thistle, unless the submitter is trying to use the mundane default tincture (gules rather than purpure). If that is the case, blazoning the tincture explicitly would be preferable. Consider Juliane Hebert: Azure, on a lozenge argent an acorn inverted slipped and leaved vert, a chief argent. There is certainly one CD for embattling the chief, but the second CD must come from changes to the tertiary. Even though these are simple arms under RfS X.4.ii.j, I don’t see granting a substantial change of type between a thistle and an acorn. There’s clearly a CD for change of type and possibly one for tincture, but we’re talking about a small portion of the charge given the prominent position of the slipping and leaving. Clearly, however, this is a judgment call for Zenobia. Stargate [Device] No conflict found. 4. Brigid of Kincairn (Stonebridge Keep) New name. New device. Gyronny Or and sable, a fusil within a bordure azure. Namron [Name] No conflicts found. Bridgid: Not checked. Kincairn: Not checked. [Device] No conflicts found. Da'ud [Device] Gyronny Or and sable, a fusil within a bordure azure. Modern heraldic authors notwithstanding, a fusil as a separate, distinct charge, does not exist. "As Roger F. Pye has argued, a fusil is a segment of an indented ordinary." [Baldwin of Erebor, LoAR 9 March 1986, p.7] "The passion nails were blazoned on the LoI as fusils, but (i) fusils do not have an independent existence as a charge...." (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR January 1991, p.17). The primary charge here is a lozenge. Gawain [Device] As I understand it, fusils do not appear in period heraldry singly: the distinction between fusils and lozenges based on the acuteness of their angles is post-period. Call this a lozenge. Arbalest [Device] It is my feeling that the azure charges on the sable parts of the field do not make the charges identifiable. It has been a long-standing Laurel precedent that azure and sable fields are low contrast; therefore the requirement for good contrast between the parts of the device is not met. Elfsea [Name] Brigid citation seems incomplete using just Withycombe, suggest finding another source, as Withycombe says name not used in common practice until 17th or 18th century. None of the information references Scotland, which is her request for authenticity. [Device] No Conflicts Found. Magnus [Name] Brigid: Withycombe gives this spelling and it looks like Middle Irish from the text. The English form was Bridgett but we regularly register Brigid with an English name. Kincairn is a place from Wyccad, a Steven Rimmer novel about witchcraft. I would recommend Kincarn as there are dated examples of the name elements used in actual place-names. Kin from Room, Dictionary of Irish Place-Names, page 77-78 header Kinlough 'head of the lake' and Kindrum 'head of the ridge'. Johnston, Place-Names of Scotland, page 154 header Kinnaber gives Kinabyre from 1200 'head of the estuary'. Carn from Room, Dictionary of Irish Place-Names, page 15 header Ardcarn 'height of the carn'. To date the name The Dioceses of Ireland Territorial History http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/kilkenny/2/diocese.htm "A monastery was founded at Ardcarn in the 6th century and at the Synod of Rathbreasail in 1111 Ardcarn was chosen as one of the five dioceses of Connacht. At the Synod of Kells in 1152, Ardcarne was amalgamated with the Sees of Elphin, Roscommon and Drumcliff to form the present diocese of Elphin." [Device] Blazon as Gyronny Or and sable, a lozenge with a bordure azure since the fusil has no independent existence outside of an ordinary. Gwenllian [Device] The primary is a lozenge, not a fusil, which can only exist as a part of a charge such as “a fess of five fusils conjoined.” See the Pic-Dic (s.n. fusil) for additional examples. The key here is that, contrary to what many modern heraldry books say, a fusil is not simply a skinny lozenge. The bordure needs to be drawn wider. Close to but clear of Moira Maureen ua Seamus of the Green Hills, “Per chevron azure and vert, a fusil argent,” with CDs for the field and the addition of the bordure (Moira’ device was registered in 1980, hence the single fusil). Also close to but clear of Finnian the Red, “Per pale gules and sable, a lozenge within an annulet argent,” with CDs for the field and change of type of the secondary. No conflicts found. Stargate [Device] We found that the combination of an azure charge and a field that's half sable obscured the lozenge so much we couldn't identify it. Gyronny of six won't really help, nor will anything else we thought of. 5. Christianna O’Ruarke (Wiesenfeuer) New Name. New Device. Sable in pale a swan naiant and a rose argent. Namron [Name] No conflicts found. Christiana: Not checked. O'Ruarke: Not checked. [Device] No conflicts found. Elfsea [Name] Seems Fine, no Woulfe on hand to check reference. [Device] No Conflicts Found Magnus [Name] O'Ruarke looks like a modern spelling of the name.
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