he Apple computer has attracted got so excited that I told the program I was Three original so much attention that it's curious so little in at school-a fairly prolonged M.D. program designers Thas appeared on the formative days of the with a Ph.D. in neurophysiology-that I wanted development project. To set the record straight. BYTE to take a year off. or maybe more. Finally they discuss the West Coast Editors John Markoff and Ezra Shapiro let me take the year off with the option of go- intewiewed three of the original members of the Macin- ing back. When I got here Jef's group was made up earliest davs* tosh design team: lef Raskin, ~udTribble, and Brian Howard. (The fourth member was hardware designer of Jef.Brian, myself, and . I think Burrell Smith.) flue of the three left Apple before the Joanna IHoffmanl joined just after I did. Macintosh was introduced; Tribble switched to a new Burrell had already mocked up a Macintosh BY JOHN MARKOFF career in medicine, and Raskin started his own wm- compyter. It consisted of a 6809 processor, AND EZRA s~~p.1~0puny, Information Appliance Inc., in Palo Alto, Califor- 64K bytes of memory, and a screen linked to nia. However, their recollections of the development ef- an Apple 11, and you could download pro- fort provide an interesting perspective on the Macin- grams into it. Jef had written down his exten- tosh as a product. sive ideas about what it should look like in the end and some ideas about . My first order of business was to just get this thing BYTE: We thought we wuld start by asking each of to be able to assemble and cross-assemble you to introduce yourselves and to te!l about your role on the Apple 11, to get a basic BlOS or oper- in the Macintosh project. ating system up on the machine, and also to HOWARD: I'm Brian Howard. and 1 joined the worry about other kinds of things-whether Macintosh project almost in its infancy to help it should have a modem, include serial inter- out with documentation and publications for faces, and what kind of mass-storage device it. Since it turned out that there wasn't much it should have. to write about in the early days, I started to 1 was very impressed with the amount of help Burrell Smith build all the original pro- work already done, -before even having a totypes and to document the hardware, and machine, in deciding on a philosophy for the I more or less stayed on in the hardware vein. machine. I was also impressed with the caliber TRIBBLE: My name is or Guy Pib- of that core group, especially Burrell. ble. depending on what city you know me in. BYTE: Who put the Book of Macintosh together? I knew people at Apple for a long time, : I think I wrote almost all of it. Macin- [Raskinl before Apple, and down tosh started out as my dream of what a per- at UCSD. I heard from lef that he was work- sonal computer might be. I was already think- ing on a new project at Apple; specifically, he ing about it at UC San Diego back in the early was starting up a research section at Apple, seventies when I developed the "flow lan- and that he had some interesting ideas for guage," a language that was so simple that it making a computer that was different from had no error messages at all; it was impos- what had been on the market previously. sible for a user to make a syntactic or seman- Since I was interested, I came down and talked tic mistake. Students loved learning program- to him. He showed me a big notebook that ming on it. Working on that and other projects was the Macintosh Document, which had been had taught me that one could do things more worked on by Brian and lef. simply than had been done and that com- BYTE: What year was it? puters had a long way to go before they were TRIBBLE: I think it was 1980. pleasant to use. RASKIN: Sounds about right. We already had (continued) the Book of Macintosh at that time-400 pages...... R TRIBBLE: And it was an extensive description Ezra Shapiro (McGraw-Hill, 425 Battery St., &I of a cheap, user-friendly machine that went Francisco, CA 941 11) is BYTE'S West Coast bure beyond what was the state of the art then (the chief. John Markoff (1000 Elwell Court. Palo Alb Apple 11) in terms of a personal computer. I CA 94303) is a BYTE senior technical editor. BYTE WEST COAST

What I wanted with Macintosh was a BYTE: What's the other side? In what sense low price, I wanted it to be all in one is Macintosh a departure from what was being piece with no connecting cables, a done and thought of at PARC? . minimum number of parts, and a mini- RASKIN: Theirs was all based on Small- mum number of interconnects so that talk and had a different model of what it would be highly reliable. Brian and I the user interface wourd look like. 1 built many cardboard inodels and did thought they had a lot of good ideas. dozens of drawings. So if the fact that The difference between Apple and it's two pieces is one of the great suc- PARC is that Apple was designing things cess factors, it's certainly not from to be sold in large quantities and PARC something that I can take any credit for. designs things to play with. While they I also wanted it to have a mono- weren't concerned with questions of chromatic screen that could be bit- production. I very much was. mapped, rather than a character BYTE: Why did you initially settle on the 6809 . generator. microprocessor? As a matter of fact, when I started RASKIN: It's a very pleasant micropro- working at Apple, the Lisa was a char- cessor. It seemed like it would be avail- acter-generator machine and I was the able in great abundance. It's much, only voice saying it should be bit- much cleaner, and it doesn't segment mapped, and I convinced the crew memory into 2 56K-byte parcels. working on it. I guess I was also this Photo 1: Brian Howard TRIBBLE: Bill Atkinson was heavily in- disembodied voice that changed it from volved with developing QuickDraw and a three-button mouse to a one-button and Macintosh technology come in some sort of working on the Lisa project. While I was mouse at Apple-that was a big fight. straight line from inside the corporate sanctum working on the 6809. writing software Macintosh was started very close to of Xerox PARC [Palo Alto Research Center]. to run on a bit-mapped screen, he was the time Lisa was. Wo totally separate RASKIN: Yes and no. I always thought developing this neat bit-blit software to tracks. that Babbage and lbring and Van do characters and graphics on the Lisa BYTE: 'ha separate philosophies? Neumann hadn't gone quite far enough screen on the 68000. HOWARD: Actually. I think Lisa had in generalizing the idea of a computer. 1 realized that in terms of the cost of been worked on in some form for I remember clearly enunciated-sort of the machine, the microprocessor is a almost a year. the ?Irringprinciple-that memory could small percentage; it didn't make sense RASKIN: But it was a very different hold anything. A symbol is a symbol to limit ourselves to the 6809, and if we machine then. and you can interpret it in different could use the 68000, we [also]could HOWARD: It was going to be a bitslice ways. But then at PARC they had clever- take advantage of a large portion of the piece of hardware. They were going to ly gone on to generalizing the screen. software that was out for Lisa. I was do a Pascal p-machine chip set. Any point is the same way as any other thinking of lower-level things like the TRIBBLE: Since Jef was on the initial point. Characters just happen to be one QuickDraw software. This represented user-interface committee for Lisa, he kind of picture we can generate. The a major investment; I didn't want to do was putting in his ideas, and at the same keyboard is the same way. it over again for the 6809. time he was managing the initial Macin- One of my first thoughts was that 1 also figured out that the project tosh project. Macintosh should be the most absolute- simply could not be done fast enough RASKIN: One thing I strongly believed ly general machine that you could con- on a 6809. 1 got together with Burrell was that Lisa was much too large and ceive at that price, so that you could do Smith and said, "Can you hook up a expensive a machine for a company of anything on it you could do with any machine with only 64K bytes of mem- Apple's style and type. Usa was definite- machine with that amount of hardware. ory:' which is what the Macintosh was ly headed toward the business market. I tried for over a year to get supposed to have then, "and run with and I thought that it was a severe to see what they were doing at PARC the 68000?" That was kind of a trick mistake to make a machine that would, because I felt that they were at least because 64K bytes done on a 64K-bit in price and capability. compete head- seven-years ahead of their time. They chip is only 8 bits wide and the data bus on with Wang, DEC. IBM, and DG. had the Altos going then. with bit- on the 68000 is 16 bits wide. It required BYTE: As a researcher, did you have an input mapped keyboards and screens. You multiplexing and demultiplexing, while i#to those marketing questions? could do anything you wanted on them. at the same time trying to keep chip RASKIN: I never hesitated to speak my They also had the mouse on it. Ale counts to a minimum. Burrell Smith mind. though I couldn't stand the mouse, 1 was came up with a design that did all the HOWARD: Also, "researcher" was part- the only person at Apple who had even timing and did the multiplexing and de- ly a title that was created to explain that seen one, and certainly the only person multiplexing in a minimalist type of way. there wasn't a production item related who had ever used bne. Finally Steve Burrell did nonstop wire wrapping, to his ideas. lobs. Bill Atkinson, and a few others and I wrote programs on the Apple I1 BYTE: Let's take a popular myth and tell me went to Xerox PARC and came back to emulate the timing that Burrell was to what degree it's wrong. The myth is tha' Lisa enthused. (continued)

348 BY T E AUGUST 1984 BYTE WEST COAST ImWR

programming into the programmable- were edging the array logic chips. And at the end of four design and the price, closer to Lisa. I days, we had a board with the 68000, thinkJef was reacting against the danger 64K bytesd memory, and a bit-mapped of pricing the machine out of people's screen and keyboard up and running reach. I take some of the blame for go- the QuickDraw software. At that point ing along with a lot of these changes we went to Steve Bobs] with the work- . because I was closely allied with Bill ing model, and he said, "Okay. Let's do Atkinson, who was working on Lisa, and it this way:' we thought along the same lines. The RASKIN: I was against the 68000 at first .other thing is that I was, and still am, a because I wanted a low-priced machine technological junkie and like fancier bits and the 68000 would bump up the cost. in my computer. Not that I didn't have Burrell and Bud convinced me that the an appreciation for Jef's idea for a com- 68000 was the way to go. especially puter that people could afford. because of the software. It was clear BYTE: Is that the central tension in the design that we could never catch up on the process of Macintosh? work that Bill had done. HOWARD: That's a tension in any design, BYTE: What's the history of the Mac mouse? in any project. Especially with a hard- RASKIN: Jobs gets a hundred percent ware group, there is always a tendency credit for insisting that a mouse be on to use chips that are a little bit more on the Mac. Photo 2: Bud Ti661e the leading edge of what's possible, to HOWARD: When we chose the 68000, run things just a little bit faster. and to we did it partly so that we could use the reason I didn't want the 68000. because get a little bit more resolution out of the low-lwel graphics .routines and so on. there was no way I could have met the screen. Without strong direction from Then the question starting coming up charter of a $1000 machine. It's my opin- above, all projects have that tendency whether we also wanted to make use of ion to this day that if we had built such to float upward on the scale. the user interface as defined for the Lisa a machine it would have been dynamite It's a little misleading now Ito think or maybe some parts of it. At some because no one was even thinking in that we thought] Macintosh could be point, if you take enough of it, then the that price range with that kind of capa- sold profitably at $1000, but p.artly mouse has to come with it because bility. that's because it's taken about three that's definitely designed into the user 1 happen to enjoy the 68000 far bet- years to get it out on the market. Three interface in the Lisa. . ter than the 6809. It's a nice processor years ago, the price differential was RASKIN: I wasn't too antagonistic to work with. And they're both nicer much more astounding that it is now. Of toward using the Lisa user interface than the ancient 6502. But as we started course. the price of all those chips has since I had had a strong hand in that. making those changes, the price started dropped dramatically since we were It had many of the features .that I escalating very rapidly. working with them originally. wanted. TRIBBLE: It was a domino effect. After BYTE: Is Burrell Smith as unusual a hardware Tb give a little history, I had a conver- the 68000, we started talking about put- designer as we have heard 614 reputation? sation with Mike Markulla long before ting on a massstorage device that RASKIN: I think he is very, very good. this about wanting to make a 1ow.priced would be more commensurate with Bill Atkinson thought he had a great machine. A concept called "Annie"was that-a more expensive disk drive. deal of talent. I talked to Burrell and . developing then, and he said, "Can you BYTE: You originally had started with a decided he was as good a digital design a machine to sell for $500?' 1 5 %-inch drive. designer as I had ever met. came back a week later and said, "Rot TRIBBLE: Before that there was going TRIBBLE: My orientation was more one that would really befunctional, but to be a small tape drive and that drove toward software. But I found it extreme I can design one to be.sold for $1000:' the price up. The screen went from a ly easy to communicate with Burrell. I didn't like the names Annie or Lisa- 256- by 2 56-pixel screen up to an in- and part of that was that the turnaround that is a sexist kind of approachrso I termediate screen and finally to where time with Burrell for trying out new proposed that Apple name projects it is now. The memory started out at 64K hardware ideas was like the turnaround after varieties of apples, and 1 called bytes, but all of a sudden we got Quick- time I was used to for trying out new mine Macifitosh. Draw, which was 20K bytes, and all this software. He would do it overnight. If I HOWARD: Sbrt of a fruitist attitude. Lisa software and extra pieces lying came up with an idea from the software RASKIN: Steve Jobs had named the around. So the ROM [read-only mem- standpoint and said to Burrell, company Apple so you get started off ory] went from 4K bytes to 64K bytes "Wouldn't it be nice if we had this in the on a fruit image. There was a P~ppinfor in steps. And the price of the machine hardware?", he would come back the a while and some other internal apple went up with that. The RAM [random- day and say, "We can do that if you names. access readhvrite memory] went from make this slight change in the softwa~:' After Steve Jobs get stronger on the 64K bytes to 128K bytes eventually. The In a very short time, we would get the project, he kept edging it toward a more keyboard became detached, which also whole thing going. expensive machine. That was the main drove up the price of the machine. (continued) BYTE WEST COAST

RASKIN: That is one thing that I was that's okay. I didn't see it as something pushing for very hard-the interaction that a User would casually plug into. of hardware and software. You don't TRIBBLE: I ended up leaning toward a build a hardware box just to suit some more closed system because, as soft- hardware engineer and then try to cram ware manager. it became appealing to software into it. You design your hard- me to have every single one of the ware to support the software, you machines that were out there all exact- design the software to put the two ly the same. If software ran on one together, and they grow together. machine, it would run on all the others. HOWARD: The constant interaction was I didn't want a big proliferation of weird one of the most fun things about the addresses on the bus so that if you ac- early Macintosh project in general. No cess them with such and such hooked decision was made by any one person up it would do something funny. and handed down to somebody else. BYTE: The story of the IBM PC. The original Mac room was one big RASKIN: The story of the Apple 11. room-any discussion that took place BYTE: One thing that surprised people, 1 think. involved everybody in the room. Even when Mac was first introduced, was that it only after we moved, constant group Photo 3: lef Raskin had one disk drive. meetings coalesced everywhere. People RASKIN: I know why there was [only] would run in and help shape the idea. going to certify you:" I think he was be- one originally. When I was there, the RASKIN: I tried to keep the spirit of the ing a little paranoid. software was designed to work with group, and also my personal spirit, very It came to pass that there was no way one. But after you have the typical Lisa playful. We were always playing music to get into the Macintosh at bus speeds. kind of software on it, it definitely needs and frisbee, and shooting dart guns. But I went through Burrell's hardware more than one. Having first made the BYTE: fl, what Rdent was Macintosh in the manuals and found a serial chip that choice of putting that software in, cer- early days influenced 6y the Apple 111 ex- could run at I megahertz, which hsthe tainly I would have put in two disk perience? SCC chip. So I said to Burrell, "You've drives. It's not very convenient to use RASKIN: 'Remendously-to get as far got to design this thing in:' I think it's with just one. away from it as possible! adequate. What I was worried about BYTE: Who came up with the idea of a HOWARD: The team size was definitely was not having enough bandwidth to detachable keyboard? reinforced by the Apple 111. It was clear talk to a hard disk or a network. RASKIN: I think Jobs. that a large team would tend to go off BYTE: Do you think you've got it? BYTE: What are your feeliws about that? in the direction of writing mountainous TRIBBLE: I think we've got it. The band- RASKIN: Once Macintosh grew to its amounts of code and things that were width on most Winchester disks is a few present size, the separate keyboard was not well focused. That was part of our megahertz. The bits come streaming the only way to go. incentive for keeping the group small. out of the disk at a few megahertz, and BYTE: Did it start out physicufly significantly BYTE: Back in the days of the Book of with the SCC chip we can go in at close smaller? Macintosh, wsMacintosh a closed system in to 1 megahertz. We lose a small factor TRIBBLE: Not very much smaller. The the sense that the outside wrld wouldn't have there, but most of the wait time on the screen was a little bit smaller, but the easy access to the bus? hard disk is head motion anyway. whole box was a much lower profile. RASKIN: No. I believed in having a bus RASKIN: If you can get at the bus itself RASKIN: But it was not like a %ndy brought out on an edge ,connector. you have so much more control. I still Model 100. It did have a CRT [cathode- BYTE: What happened? think it was a mistake to not put those ray tube]. It was slightly smaller. It grew TRIBBLE: , who was involved fingers there, even behind a hidden a great deal. with the analog design land who was] port. BYTE: Have you seen any of the third-party doing the FCC certification on the HOWARD: Just putting in fingers doesn't software that's just beginning to emerge for . Apple 11, kept bringing up the point that come for free, though. As soon as you Macintosh? Wdve seen some where w think the if you bring out an 8-MHz, or whatever, say it's okay for the outside world to third-party developers have missed the point of bus to the outside world you're in trou- start hanging junk on your high-fre- the Mac. ble. I retrenched and said that what we quency signals, you have to somehow TRIBBLE: I think that's bound to hap- needed were fingers to come out that isolate yourself from what they do- pen, especially where you have so many could be used for testing purposes. enough so that your machine will still people-a hundred companies are out RASKIN: As a matter of fact, in the work with things hanging out there. You there-writing software. It's a tremen- original Macintosh specification it was have to take all that into account. dous problem in communication. You called the Bus Diagnostic Port. That was RASKIN: I still think you should put it have to reeducate all the people who part of the original definition. on, call it a diagnostic, and use it for write for CP/M, UNIX, and whatnot to TRIBBLE: Then Rod said, "If we put in diagnosis. You take no responsibility write for a system that is completely dif- a knock-out plastic port, the FCC is go- because it's not a user part, but if some ferent from anything they're used to. ing to say 'Obviously you are inviting OEM wants to use your board or your HOWARD: It certainly takes a lot of people to knock that out, and we're not machine and take that responsibility, (continued)

352 BYT E AUGUST 1984 BYTE WEST COAST

rethinking about how you want to be byte ROM is sitting there with all these byte machine that's really fast. Burrell doing what you're doing. nice routines, and they're chewing up loves designing for it, software people TRIBBLE: Early on, designing the oper- RAM with their own routines for their had no trouble handling that, and it's ating system, I decided to incorporate user interface. So it's a way of legislat- very clean. When the 256K-bit chips most of the user-interface routines and ing a consistent user interface. come you just plug in all those and procedures almost into the operating BYTE: You started with 64K bytes and iWs everything runs just about the same. system. It was partitioned off as some- released with 128K bytes, and there is constant BYTE: What brought Jobs to the Macintosh thing called the user-interface toolbox- talk of a half-megabyte Mac. When did a half project? Why did he get interested in it? a set of tools that you could use to con- megabyte creep into the design philosophy? HOWARD: One reason was that Apple form to the Macintosh user interface. RASKIN: Very early on Burrell pointed had no new projects in that sort of low RASKIN: The original design documents out that it's very easy to make a design. price range, and I think it was becom- also said that the user interface is pretty once you had the 68000 in place, where ing obvious that at some point people much the operating system. you could just take out 64K-bit chips were probably going to quit buying the TRIBBLE: But further than that, we have and put in 2 56K-bit chips. I've always Apple I1 and Apple better have some a problem because it is harder to con- believed that you just simply take the other, at least that low if not lower- form to that user-interface standard largest chip that is economically feasi- priced, project in the works. And part than it is to just treat the thing as a TTY ble to use in terms of the memory, and of it is that I think he was being sort of Iteletypewriter]. How were we going to if they're bit-wide chips and you use 8 edged out of the Lisa project. Or that get all these third-party software ven- or 16 of them, then that should be the he could see that it was going off in a dors to go along with us? The strategy size of your memory. The size of mem- direction, perhaps even with his bless- was not to legislate by saying. "You must ory, to be economical, should be the ing, that he wasn't happy being a part do this;' but to legislate de facto by put- word length times the number of bits of and therefore it was time for him to ting all those toolbox routines in ROM. you have in a chip. move on to something else. Then anybody who doesn't use those So it's clear that if you have 64K-bit By then it was becoming clear that routines is penalized because the 64K- RAMS and a 16-bit bus you get a 128K- Mac was the most exciting thing going

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154 B Y T E AUGUST 1984 BYTE WEST COAST

on at Apple. Jobsdefinitely loves to be were blocked here and there. It was is not at all true. He has not been in in on new projects as they get going, upsetting. I almost decided to go back general a person who does that. He and and he's not very able to just sit back to Seattle right when Steve was taking Markulla asked me if I would please stay and watch that happen. IHe's] a very over. But I made a decision that if Steve another month even if I didn't come in forceful person Iwho] has to get in and takes over the Macintosh project, then to work; they knew I was very unhappy exert his influence. we'll have resources of the company there. At the end of that time they BYTE. What happened between Raskin and available to us, and we won't be blocked would make me an offer that 1 couldn't Jobs as Jobs moved into the Macintosh project? here and there. At least we'll be able to refuse. TRIBBLE: When I went to work for Ap- get something done. That turned out to They went back to the way it had ple, I went specificially to work for Jef. be partly true. But the flip side of that started. They were going to set me up And there is an incredible difference in was that Steve is good at lots of things with a research division. This was the philosophy between Jef and Steve. In but not at being a boss on a one-to-one third or fourth or maybe the ninth or my own mind 1 was initially more level. tenth-] don't remember how many- aligned with Jef's philosophy than BYTE: (to Raskin) When did you leave the times I had been offered that and every Steve's. I have to admit that I became Mac project? time I had done it, something came up. somewhat influenced by Steve as time RASKIN: 1 was sort of forced out. Like And they would say, "Oh, you've got to went on. I also have a somewhat someone squeezing on a toothpaste turn this into a product; you've got to Machiavellian view toward the Macin- tube. I resigned in February of 1982. It come over and put out this fire or some- tosh project. By that time I was in love was gratifying that Markulla and Jobs thing:' with it and wanted to see it happen, and did not accept my letter of resignation. They made me the same offer over here were these bad, political things While I disagree with Jobs in lots of again, and I think I had finally learned happening, kind of above my head. ways, the Rolling Stone article IS. Levy. that there was little likelihood of it ac- What I saw as inevitable was that essen- "The Whiz Kids Meet Darth Vader," tually happening. So I left. . . . tially the company had turned against March 1, 1984,page 361 made it appear BYTE: Were any of you surprised at all by the ref. Things were not getting done and as though he summarily fired me, which (continued)

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. - 1984 BYTE 355 ..;a BYTE WEST COAST

extent of the Mac hype? The scaP when you're watching them manipulate HOWARD: Kind of. HOWARD: That's something of Apple's. a program. and it's very easy to see TRIBBLE: We made no attempt to keep I guess you would call it extreme right what they're doing with the mouse. ourselves secret, though. from the start. I guess that is what has RASKIN: I don't disagree. Except I have HOWARD: We dd feel that we were go- differentiated Apple from a lot of unsuc- my strong belief that that's not a con- ing off in a different direction from the cessful computer companies that have venient thing to do for very long. It's rest of Apple. had products that were more or less certainly great to play with MacPaint. RASKIN: And nobody, especially Steve comparable to Apple's-its marketing BYTE: Where did the concept of the Mac divi- lobs, believed that we could do any- ability, its ability to really blow things up. sion as pirates come from? thing useful. Maybe a few clever ideas TRIBBLE: Apple was good at hype, for HOWARD: It came because of an inter- may come out of this group but certain- one thing. For another thing, we, the nal public relations effort to show peo- ly not a product. They were not going people involved in Macintosh, believed ple who were afraid that Macintosh was to get a product out of Ilaskin. Tribble that there was something worth hyping. turning into this giant organization. like and Howard. . . people who play music. HOWARD: It is a computer that you can the Navy, with lots of forms, rules, BYTE: Is Mac a product that can evolve well? get affectionate feelings about in a way. regulations, guidelines, and procedures. HOWARD: In a sense that any computer RASKIN: I still think it has a lot of that this was not the case-we invented can because you can write an infinite qualities that I wanted in it originally. the slogan of "pirates:' number of programs on it. Not exactly the same, many things have TRIBBLE: Well, there is the idea of RASKIN: The Mac in particular is easier changed. But a lot of the feel has some- Macintosh stealing from Lisa. to write infinite numbers of programs how managed to come through. J think HOWARD: I don't think that was inten- on that most computers. the Mac is certainly the best of the per- tional-I think that was the way they TRIBBLE: It's a generalist's computer. It's sonal computers of today. took it. It certainly did not improve a bit-mapped screen with some mem- TRIBBLE: The people who worked on Macintosh's relations with the rest of the ory and a processor. Macintosh, especially that initial core company-since that made the rest of HOWARD: With some limitations, you group, were all emotionally involved in the company the Navy by implication. can hook almost any piece of hardware the machine. That is a lot of what made BYTE: In the very first days, was it more or to it through high-speed serial ports. it turn out well. less unofficial? Was it all backdoor? And people will go on plugging all kinds The idea came up again and again TRIBBLE: It was not a product. of weird things in it. from the early days, though, that the HOWARD: We were calling it research BYTE: Could Mac be done again in 1984? major problem of the.Macintosh was partly so that nobody would be upset HOWARD: I think it could, but only by going to be one of educating people that we were working on these ideas. a similar process, a little group splinter- about the machine. It's a new concept TRIBBLE: If it's not a product we can do ing off, working separate from the big and you have to spend effort to teach whatever we want. group. I don't think it could be done on people about it. BYTE: There were some resources committed purpose, as Macintosh was not done on A person should be able to watch for toward your "blue-sky" research? purpose. five minutes and then sit down and do HOWARD: It wasn't that many resources RASKIN: From my point of view it was something useful. You shouldn't have to were being committed. There were done on purpose, but from Apple's read a big manual. some bodies. Four or five of us were in point of view it was an accident. Jef may not agree, but 1 feel that it's a room that Apple was renting. But that HOWARD: Actually Steve Jobs would the mouse that allows you to do this. was about it. support that kind of thing. That is the Because it's difficult to see what some- BYTE: Did you feel lik you were a secret society, kind of thing that Jobs will go out on a one's fingers are doing on the keyboard in a sense? limb for. w

ULTRA-RES" GRAPHICS

Available from stock Advanced feature display controllers for IBM-PC 1 XT and compatible systems Features include NEC7220. programmable resolution to 1024x1024. slave controllers, transparent mode allows monochrome adapter and ULTRA-RESon same monitor. DMA compat~ble.light pen externally powerable Monitor prbtectlon circuits Video outputs are Tn direct drive or analog Software drivers.

ULTRA-RES Trademark CSD Inc. IBM.PC Trademark IBM L C.S.D. imorpwated WHEN RESOLUTION- COUNTS P.O.Box 253 SUDBURY. MA 01776 (617) 443-2750 ULTRA-RES, a family of graphic controllers for IBM-PC / XT and SlOO systems

356 B Y T E AUGUST 1984 Orcle 46 on Inquiry card.