22 August 1946

[22 -AUGUTST, 1940.]42 427

drivers cannot carry those goods from the Esplanade but must take them from the PQsislaie 'iZzzemblg. vehicle while parked opposite to where they Thursday, 22nd August, 1946. have to be delivered. There is no question but that this will be an important problem in the development even though the war Pau of our city, because Questions: Under Secretory for Agricultue, as to has just ended and people have not beern business tripe and duties 427 CnmmoAwratth-State Housing Scheme, no to able to buy new motor vehicles during the Onowangerup andi Mt. Barker quotas. 428 past five or six years, and many of the old Education, as so tenders (or Tambeliup school 428 vehicles art: ready to be run off the road, Sewverage, Claremont, as to connecting remaining houseH ...... 428 when people are able to buy new motor Dairying, as to dtsesse, in cattle and milk standard 428 vehicles the problem will be intensified. Railways, as to accommodation for concession- ticket school children...... 429 While, as the Minister says, the Government Addrcss-in-reply, presentation ...... 429 accepts no responsibility for parking areas, ]Bills : State Government Insurance Office Act some further restrictions may have to be im- Amendment, 3Re...... 429 Business Names Act Amendment, point of order, posed, and vehicles may have to be stopped 429 further out of the city Many people already State Transport Co-ordiuation Act Amendment, 2a...... 433 do that for their own convenience and peace Feeding Stuffs Act Amendment (No. 2). 2R. 435 of mind. They stop their vehicles some- Legislative Council Reereadwan, Message, point ol order, Lt...... 438 where removed from the city block, and re- Milk, 2a...... 483 turn to them when they have transaeted their businesb Further investigations may have to lie The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4.3U) ninde, into the parking of vehicles, and in- p.m., and read prayers. formation obtained not only from the East- era States but from America and England. I understand that in those countries then,! QUESTIONS. are modern facilities for the parking of vehiclesg. The time will probably arrive UNDER SECRETARY FOR when we have to give consideration to the AGRICULTURE. installing of such facilities. T think the As to Busintess Trips and Duties. memher for Williamns-Narrogin has achieved his purpose in having the matter discussed Mr. SEWARD asked the Minister for here. TC it is adjourned for a period of six Agriculture:- weeks or two months I think a further re- 1, On how many occasions during the last port could then be obtained to see what the nine mlontlhs has the Under Secretary for position is in the light of that further experi- Agiculture travelled to the Eastern States- ence, and a vote conld then be taken. (a) by air; On motion by Mr. Read, debate adjourned. (h) iby other means of transport? 2, On what business was he engaged on House adjourned at 10.3 p.m. each of the trips, and at whose expense were the trips made? 3, Is the Government of the opinion that the Under Secretaryship for Agriculture is not a full-time job? 4, If not:' and if the Under Secretary is indispensable to tbe Commonwealth Govern- ment, will this Government consider the question of an acting appointment while the present occupant is so engaged? The M[NI.9TER replied: 1, (a) Six. (b) N il. [ASSEMBLY.)

2, (a) On four occasions representing the 2, Will lie regard this matter as one (it State at meetings of the Stand- urgency in view of the unsatisfactory tem- ing Committee on Agriculture porary quarters that are being used to sup- and accompanying Ministers to plement the insufficient school accommoda- meetings of the Agricultural tionI Council; other departmental mat- The MINISTER replied: ters also attended to during each 1, Treasury approval bas not yet been. visit. given for the erection of a three roomed Cost of transport paid on a school at Tambellup. formula between all State Gov- 2, Inquiry wit! be made at once to de- ernments and the Commonwealth, terinine thu question of urgency in relation (b) On two occasions to attend meet- to the needs of other centres. ings called by the Controller of Egg Supplies; other depart- SEWERAGE, CLAREMONT. mental matters attended to on these occasions also. As to Connecting Remaining Houses. Working days involved; nine Mir, NORTH asked the Minister for days. W~orks: 3, During the war the Under Secretary for So far as the engineering side of the Agriculture has not restricted his work to matter is concerned, is it practicable, when office hours or to week days. labour and materials are available, to con- 4. See 2 (b) and 3. nect every house in the Claremont elec- torate to the deep sewerage system? COMMONWEALTH-STATE HOUSING The MINISTER replied: SCHEME. Yes, hut to do so it would he necessary to extend As to Onowangerup and Mt. Barker Quotas. the sewerage reticulation mains and install some pumping plants. Mr. WATTS asked the Premier: 1, Has a decision yet been reached in re- DAIRYING. gard to the applications made for a quota As to Disease in Cattle and Mfilk Standard, of houses under the Commonwealth-State scheme for the towns of Onowangerup and Air. STYANTS asked the Minister for Mount Barker?9 Agriculture: 2, If so, what respective quotas have been 1, In view of the report of a departmental allotted?7 committee regarding the widespread incid- 3, If not, when will a decision be arrived exwe of disease in dairy cattle which provide at? milk for the metropolitan area and the reasonable assumption that cattle outside that The ACTING PREMIER replied: area are also affected, will he give an as- 1, No. surance that the provisions of the Milk Bill 2, Answered by No. 1. will be made operative in the Eastern Gold- 3, A survey of the needs of Onowangerup fields area simultaneously with their coming and Mt. Barker has been made, but the ap- into force in the metropolitan area? plications. received indicate that the hard- 2, Does he consider the milk standard of s.hip experienced is not comparable with 3.'2 per cent. butter-fat and 8,5 per cent. other distriets where the position is acute. solids, not fat, demanded by the Department Further inquiries are being made. of Public Health, sufficiently high? EDUCATION. 3, Why is the standard set by the Depart- ment of Public Health so much below the A.i to Tenders for Tamnbellup School. quality of milk given by cows which airc of mr. WATTS asked the Minister for Edu- a reputable dairying strain? eation: 4, Have any extensive tests been made to I, When is it proposed to call tenders in ascertain the butter-fat and solids, not fat, respect of the new three-roomed school at contained in the milk of the average stan- TAnilbellup which has been approved? dard dairy cowvs? [22 AUGUST, 1946.149 429

5, If so, will he supply particulars of the any action necessary to enable these children tests? to go home on Friday or Saturday next? The MINISTER replied: The MINISTER replied: 1, The provisions of the Milk Bill will be 1, I am not aware of any such happening. extended to country districts, including the 2, I give the hon. member my assurance Eastern Goldfields area, where such requests that I will have an immediate investigation are received. made with a view to bringing about such 2, Yes. The percentages for butter-fat adjustments as will provide for the children and solids, not fat, in the questions refer to the facilities that are usually available and minimum requirements. which they are quite entitled to enjoy. 3, Public health requirements are not much below the average quality of milk given by ADDRESS-IN-REPLY. dairy breeds usually found in milk producing areas. Presentation. The standard for butter-fat which is the Mr. SPEAKER: I desire to announce most variable component is not seriously at that, accompanied by the member for variance with minimum requirements in other Williams-Narrogin aind the member for places. For example: England, 3 per cent.; Mt. Magnet, I waited upon His Excel- lency the Lieuit.-Guvernor and presented New South Wales, 3.2 per cent.; South Aus- tralia, 3.25 per cent.; New Zealand, 3.25 per the Addrcss-in-rcply to His Excellency's eent.; Tasmania, 3.3 per cent.; Queensland, opening speech. His Excellency replied in 3.3 per cent; Victoria, 3.5 per cent. the following termjs-- I thank you for your expressions of loyalty 4, Many series of examinations have been to His Most Gracious Majesty the King, and made regarding the quality of various breeds for your Address-in-reply to the Speech with of dairy cows. For instance- whbich Parliameat was o pened.- (Signed) James Mitchell, Lieut.-Governor. Percentage Solids, not of Fat. Fat. BILL-STATE GOVERNMENT Jersey . .. 5.3 9.4 INSUR- ANCE OFFICE ACT AMENDMENT. Guernsey .. 5.0 9.5 M. Shorthorn .. 4.0 9.4 Third Beading. Holstein - Friesian 3.4 8.6 THE MIUNISTER FOR WORKS (Hon. 5, Information regarding the chemical A. II. G. Hawke-Northam) (4.38] in mov- quality of milk in the Perth metropolitan ing the third reading %aid: During the area is given in the report of the inter- Committee stage on this Bill the memb~er departmental committee recently tabled in for Nedlands suggested that an amendment Parliament. should be ade to Clause 2 for the purpose of consolidating the deflaition of the classes RAIL WAYS. of iusurqtnce business which the State of- flce would be legally entitled to transact. As to Accommodation for Concession- The object of the amendment was to make Ticket School Child~ren. that definition munch briefer but Do less Mr. SEWARD (without notice) asked the adequate. I had inquiries made of the Minister for Railways: manager of the State Government Insur- ance Office and the draftsman concerned J, Is it fact that when school children, with regard to this matter and they both on holidays, and about to proceed to their agree that the suggested amendment, if homes alongc the Kalgoorlie line, applied adopted. would achieve the purpose in- to the Railway Department for concession dicated by the member for Nedlands. I tickets, which cannot be applied for until have to ad~vise that hon. member that I will within three days of being used, they -were bring this matter tinder the notice of the refused them as race traffic hod booked up Minister for Labour on his return to the rill accommodation. State for his consideration. In the event

-72, If he is not aware of this, will he make of his deciding in favour of the adoption immediate inquiries with a view to taking of the amendment, the necessary action to [ASSEMBLY.) have it included in the Bill will be taken the House when a private member's motion in another place. The Leader of the Op- -this applies to both sides of the House- position also moved an amendment to delete has been lifted so that it could be dealt with certain words from Clause 6 on the ground on a day reserved for Government business. that those words were unnecessary, did not There has heen equality of opportunity, achieve anything, and did not affect the and I believe no exception has been taken principle of the Bill in any way. I sought to it, hut the member for Guildford-Mlid- advice from the Crown Law Department land, as recently as the 30th August, 1944, and manager of the State Government In- was in trouble in the same way. On that surance Office on that point. Both agree occasion, exception was taken to his motion with the contention of the Leader of the that a Bill be printed and made an Order Opposition, and I propose to follow in rela- of the Day for a special day-Wednesday, tion to his suggestion the same course the 13th October. The member for Murchi- as I have indicated will be followed in eon- son said- nection with the suggested amendment of Such a motion has been contrary to the pro- the member for Nedlands. I move- cedure of the House for a long time. With all the Bill he now read a third time. due respect to the member for Ouiidford-Mid- That land, I contend that private members' business Question put and passed. .... baa always appeared on ste notice paper in rotation. I do aiot know that any special privi- Hill read a third time and transmitted leges should be extended to a private member., to the Council. After the member for Murchison had addressed you at great length, Mr. Speaker, BILL-BUSINESS NAMES ACT you ruled that the objection taken by him AMENDMENT. was fatal. You added that there was nothing to prevent the member for Guildford-Mid- As to Second Reading. land from moving that the Order of the Order of the Day read for the moving of Day be postponed, but that it must take its the second reading. place on the notice paper. In the circumstances, I raise a point of order as to Point of Order. whether this Order of the Day, placed as Mr. Watts: On a point of order, I should it is on the notice paper, is properly before like to ask whether there is any justifica- the House, and I ask for your ruling, tion for the position which this Bill, intro- The Acting Premier:- I appreciate the point duced by a private member, occupies on the taken by the Leader of the Opposition and notice paper today. I em jealous of the normally I would agree with him. Unf or- rights of private members, but I am more tunately, there was a misunderstanding re- jealous of the rights of all private members garding the printing of the Bill and its sub- and not merely of the rights of any parti- sequent delivery to the House. Otherwise, cular private member. Yesterday, private the second reading would have been moved members' day, this Bill was called on, and yesterday afternoon in the ordinary wvay. ns it had not been printed, as I understood Because of the misunderstanding, it was from the few remarks that were made, the thought reasonable that the member for sec'ond reading could not be proceeded with. Guildford-Midland should not thus he penal- In accordance with the invariable practice ised to the extent of waiting another week of this IHouse, the Bill would hare been set before moving the second reading. I desire (town in rotation for consideration on tht; to indicate to private members that, in the ensuing private members' day, Wednesday event of a member being likely to be next. peniflised under similar conditions, because On the second day on which Parliament of some misunderstanding or some unfor- sat this session, it was ordered that Gov- tuinate circumstance over which he has had ernment business should take precedence no control, favourable consideration will be- of all motions and Orders of the Day on gven to matking available to him treatment Tuesdays and Thursdays. , ijmilnr to that being made available to the I admit that in times past, usually later member for Guildford-Mlidland. in the session than this, there have been Mr. Speaker: The decision given by me occasions; since I have occupied a seat in last year does not apply to the point raised [22 AUGUST, 1946.]41 431 by the Leader of the Opposition. The Gay. The Bill seeks to remove one word from erment has the right of fixing the order Section 25 of the Act. The word I am ask- of business on the notice paper in any 'way ing the House to remove from the section is it desires, Ae, a matter of fact, when I the word "1co-operative." I submit that the was on the floor of the House, I had a Bill word was placed in that section under a -the Fremantle Trotting BiU.-Iif ted up so misapprehension. There was no need for it that it could be taken on a day reserved for to be there; but the fact that it is there is Government business. It lies with the Leader hampering the progress and development of of the House whether he lifts up a Bill in co-operative enterprises. I submit there is this way or not, but on Wednesdays private no justification for such restriction. To ex- members' business must take precedence of plain: Three co-operative companies are re- Government business. There is nothing to gistered in districts adjacent to each other; prevent the Bill from being proceeded with. there is not a great mileage between them. 'One is at Balkuling, one at Dangia and one Second Reading. at Qunirading. HON. W. D. JOHNSON (Cuildford-Mid- Realising the progress of miechanisation land) [4.47] in moving the second reading and the large part that tractors are playing, said: I intended to express my appreciation and will play in the future, in agriculture, of the action of the Government in giving the' three companies got together to uceer- seone little consideration to the special cir- tamn whether they could not give to the farm- cumstances that occurred yesterday. Every- ers of the three districts a better service than thing was ready for the second reading to is available at the present time. As the re- be proceeded with, but by some mistake on sult of protracted negotiations between the the part of the Government Printing Office, companies, they ultimately decided to estab- copies of the Bill did not reach us in time. lish at each of the three centres a small service station where regular attention coould M r. Watts: As a matter of fact, the Bill be given to small defects in tractors and has not reached us yet. machinery; but in addition to a small ser- Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: I have, been in- vice station at Balkuling and one at Dangin, formed that it is here. it was decided that at Quairading they would Mr. Doney:- Well, it is not in front of us. expand beyond the ordinary service station repairs and assistance and erect engineering Hon. W. D. JOHNSON: The Bill was works of greater magnitude where major re- prepared by the draftsman who assists pi- pairs, if necessary, could he effected to the vote members with their business, and -was farmers' machinery and implements. Hav- given in time to the Clerk of the House, ing arrived at that decision, they formed a who undertook to attend to the distribution. partnership on the basis of a service station We all thought that the Bill would be avail- at two centres and comprehensive engineer- able yesterday. Like the Leader of the Op- ing works at another, which works would he p~osition], I am jealous of the right procedure available to the other two service stations being adopted, hut after I had explained should necessity arise. They registered the the circumstances to the Acting Premier he stations as factories and had the partnership agreed to provide an opportunity for mov- properly and legally formed. T hey thea de- ing the second reading today. But for that, cided-as they were compelled to do-to the delay in proceeding with a Bill of this register under the Business Names Act. sort-the measure is somewhat urgent- would have been unfair. In order to make the name of the partnership a little briefer than it would he if the M1r. SPEAKER: I ask the bon, member three full names of the districts were in- not to blame an official. cluded, they called the partnership the IIon. W. D. JOHNSON: I have no in- "B.D.Q. Co-operative Engineering Works," tention of doing so. I know that the Clerk thus indicating that it was a partnership of the House did his part;, otherwise, I would embhracing the three districts, Balk cling, not have mentioned the point. Knowing that Duangin and Qunirading. On submitting the everything that needed to be done had been name for registration, they were told that done, I thought thst special consideration the partnership could not be registered with should be shown so that I could move the the word "Co-operative" in the title. They second reading today. ,pointed out that the three co-operative corn- 432 432[ASSEMIBLY.]

panics were properly registered and were elusion in the section of the word "co-opera- functioning and that, as naturally they did tive" is unnecessary, because otherwise the not want to mislead the public, they wanted name would not be a true indication of the to indicate that it wigs a co-operative con- actual concern or the activity which it car- cern. They went to some trouble to try to ries on. itself overcome the difficulty that presented Unless it is declared to be a co-operative with regard to the name. After getting legal company the public will be misled. Patrti- advice and assistance, they found that there cularly was no Means by which the registration would that be so in Western Aus- could be effected as thcy desired unless an tralia, because no concern which is not gen- amendment of the principal Act was passed uinely co-operative and includes in its articles by Parliament. of association and rules the true principles of the Roehdale type of co-operation exists They accordingly got in touch with the in Western Australia. I do not know of Minister for Justice and suggested that the any other part of the world where there is Government might introduce a ]3i1l for that greater purity in the control and activity purpose. Having given the matter consid- of co-operation than in Western Australia. eration, the Minister wrote to me--I was In other places, many preach the doctrine representing the three co-operative com- of the Rochdale principles, but do not panies-stating that the removal of the word strictly practise them. In Western Aus- "co-operative" would he effective as regards tralia they must be practised, otherwise the registration; but he left it to me to deter- concern would be false to its registration, mine whether a Bill to amend the Act should as it must agree before registration that be introduced by a private member rather it subscribes to those principles. In the than that the Government should make it Companies Act-and these three concerns part of its business. I discussed the mat- are registered under that Act-under the ter personally with the Minister, who said heading of "co-operative companies," it'is the Government had no objection to my in- stated- troducing the Bill. Onu that understanding, 101. No person, and no company or associa- although I would desire that the Govern- tion (whcther incorporated or not) other ment did it, I gave notice of the Bill. Mem- than- (d) a partnership or firm consisting only bers will appreciate what an advantage it of two or more comnpanies regis- will be to farmers in the surrounding dis- tered under the principal Act as tricts to have a service station at each of amended by the Companies Act the centres I have mentioned and also big Amendment Act, 1929, engineering works at Quairadiag&. shall carry on business tinder any name or title of which the word "co-operative" or any other Notwithstanding that the concern will be word importing a similar meaning is part, or called the B.D.Q. Co-operative Engineering in any manner represent that the trade or Works, it will not he limited soiely to ser- business is co-operative. vicing the vehicles, implements or machinery So the Companies Act says definitely that of members of the co-operative companies. a partnership or any association, whether That is not intended. All co-operative con- incorporated or not can form a partnership. cerns eater for the community and invite I mentioned this Bill to the Leader of the the community to join, but, if the community Opposition and, in a helpful spirit, he sug- does not join it will still get the service. gested to me that it might have a double Of course, those members of the community meaning and might be of disadvantage to not joining do not receive the benefit of the co-operatives. He was doubtful whether rebates; but nevertheless in an activity of under the Business Names Act an individual this kind full service is given to the general could not just use the word "co-operative"l public and no favouritism will be shown to in the title of the firm while not recognising the co-operative members. Section 25 of the the principle.. I had that examined by legal Act provides that no firm, individual or cor- advisers and I think I have submitted to poration required to he registered under the Leader of the Opposition suffiient to FPart I1. of the Act shall use a business name convince him that the control of the word which includei, among other words, the word "co-operative" under the Companies Act "~co-operative," but I submit that the in- Amendment Act, 1929, that lays down so [22 AUGUST, 1046.) 433

definitely what must be observed before the devoid of any rail transport, except 113 word co-operative can be used, makes it miles of line reaching from. Port Hedland impossible for any person or association to to Marble Bar. Another mode of trans- use that word under the Business Names port which serves the North-West of the Act. So while I appreciate the point raised, State is the shipping service along the I am convinced, and have legal endorsement North-West coast; and, in addition, there for my views, that there will be no danger is an air service which, to a great degree, if we remove this word "co-operative" as hugs the coastline, leaving the hinterland suggested by the Bill. largely unprovided for. I feel that it would not matter what Government was in power I know that this Parliament does not want or what its policy might he, transport must to limit the activities of to-operative enter- be a matter of immediate consideration in prises. Therefore, where there are three order that the development of that part determined to give up-to-date ser- companies of Western Australia might be encouraged. v'ices to a wide community, I think the House Apart from the desire to retain the enter- will agree they should be encouraged and prises now in existence in the North-West, that this small Bill is necessary in order I think all will agree that the Government that they might continue in the enterprise must give consideration to an immediate in- and endeavour to make a success of it. I crease of activity, and must take all neces- move- sary action to encourage a greater number That the Bill be now read a second time. of people to reside in and develop that On motion by the Minister for Justice, sparsely populated area within the immediate debate adjourned. future.

BILL-STATE TRANSPORT CO- The war has brought home to us most ORDINATION ACT AMNDMENT. forcibly the national and geographical importance of that part of the State and the Second Rteading. urgent need for its immediate development. THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT That being so, the Government, in this (Hon. WV. M. Marshall-Murchison) [5.4J measure, makes a sincere endeavour to in moving the second reading- said: This commence providing that facility which is Bill rests on premises similar to those of so urgently needed, not only to encourage a like piece of legislation introduced last those wvho are there to remain but; also, session but not proceeded with. Although as far as possib-le, to induce others to go in principle exactly like its predecessor, there and develop the rich portions of that it contains, in adition to the pre- section of the State. When the Transport vious provisions, the substance of points Co-ordination Act became law in 1933 the and principles enunciated by those repre- main impelling thought, it would be safe senting electorates in the North-West and to say, was that of giving sonic degree of also by the Leader of the Opposition dur- protection to public-owned transport, par- ing the discussion on the previous measure. ticularly railways. The idea was to protect The matter of transport generally has been them, so far as possible, from what was gving the Government a great deal of con- termed unfair and uneconomic competition. cern. it is the intention of the Govern- This being so, many' believe that the Trans- nient to take cognisance of the great port Co-ordination Board was brought into changes that have occurred in modes of existence merely for the purpose of re- transport and, so far as is hunmanly pos- strieting transport. But in actual practice sible, to introduce modern methods, fitting the Act has done something more than give each mode of transport into its correct, protection to transport systems which were economic and efricient sphere in the trans- in existenee when it first became law. The port system of the State generally. This, board was empowered to organise road and in all probanbility, will be the subject of air transport and to institute new services further legislation at a later stage of the where, in its opinion, such wvere justified. session. We know of many servics which were The Bill now before the House has par- really requiired and which the board has ticular reference to the North-West portion been i-esponsible for bringing into existence. of the State. There we have a vast area It has made possible some of these seT- 434 [ASSEMBLY.]

vices by granting subsidies in order that part of the State. The main features in the they mright be maintained. The Bill there- Bill are, firstly, to remove the restricted area fore, in principle postulates removing the which the Transport Co-ordination Hoard obstruction which appears in the Act. That now covers. obstruction is that the Road Transport Go- In other words, we have in the Bill a pro- ordination Board has its jurisdiction limited vision that it will apply right throughout to the 26th parallel, south. When the the State. This will make it possible for original Act was introduced it was thought the board to license certain vehicles and that it was not necessary to go further subsidise such vehicles for the purpose of north than that because, as I mentioned, transporting goods andi other things to, and there was only one railway there and it, throughout, the North-West. However, hav- seemingly, did not require the attention of ing regard to the peculiarities which apply the hoard. But the advent of modern modes in the North-West, particularly the long of transport has revolationised the posi- stages between settled areas, the Government tion and brought forcibly home to us the feels that some of the conditions which apply fact that we must give consideration to the in the parent Act ought not to apply there. introduction of all those things made pos- One provision in the Bill, therefore, deals sible by scientific investigation and applica- with the restriction of hours permitted under t ion. the Act, in regard to a person driving a This particular part of the State is one vchicle. If a vehicle is transporting goods that lends itself peculiarly to road tranis- from the railhead at Meckatharra, the line port. The real Purpose Of this measure of demarcation of the board's activities is is to give relief, so far as it is possible, approximately 5.3 miles north. The first port by the State, to the urgent necessity of the of call or town of consequence is Nullagine, people in those parts. The Co-ordination and the distance hetween Nullagine and Transport Board has had about 12 years' Meekatharra is 350 or 400 miles. experience in the control of transport- Hon. J1. C. Willeock: What about Peak excluding State-owned tranisport-prac- Hill?7 tically throughout the State as far north as the 26th parallel, south. What we, as a The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: No Government, are most anxious to do is to call is made at Peak Hill. The member for take advantage of the experience which the Geraldton has not kept himself up with the Transport Board has gained and, realising times. Has he never heard of the madman's the colossal difference that there is between track? The registered mail service calls at the northern and the southern portions of Peak Hill, hut the other forms of transport the State, get the lboard to make a thorough which are not registered for mail enrrving investigation with a view to bringing into go straight through at a distance of 28 or existence a transport system which will he .5 miles on the eastern side of Peak Hill. of benefit to the people of the North. From Nullagine to Marble Bar is about 52 One of the deterrent factors, so far as the miles, and from Marble Bar to Port Hed- people inhahiting this part of the State land 113 miles. The people driving those are concerned, is the cost of transport. This vehicles do so under an agreement with their builds up the cost of living to such an ex- employers. On that ronte there are no tent as to make the North a most unattrac- facilities for accommodation, apart from tive part of the State. It is considered that where they call at stations, so it is the pine- the board should be given the opportunity tice in that part of the State for a man to to make a thorough investigation, having re- drive until he is so fatigued that ho needs gard to the geographical and the climatic to slumber. That is done in the bush, ia differences which exist, and also bearing iu the usual way. I do not think we could mind the difference in the community of in- apply the sections of the Act to the North- terests. With the powers given under the West portion of the State at present, so Bill we will be able so to allocate transport provision is made in the Bill for the exemip- that the measure will be of material advan- tion of the North-West part of the State from that tage. Transport systems will be thoroughly portion of the parent Act. organised and assisted by way of subsidies When the Bill was last before the House. in order to reduce the cost of living in that the Lender of the Opposition raised Ihe soime [22 AUGUST, 19464 43435

point and I think he moved ain amendment I would remind members that there are as to the licensing of vehicles. The Govern- minor amendments that I feel might be de- ment realises that it should not introduce bated and I think that in the Committee stage irksome tactics or bring about anything that of the Bill it would be appropriate to give -would inconvenience those who are so iso- them consideration. I have enunciated the lated and who live in such a remote part major provisions of this measure. The de- of the State. Provision is made in the Bill sire of the Government is to give the North- that, with the eonsent-of the Minister, the WVest portion of this State a service that board can remove from certain vehicle has long been required, in order to make owners liability to apply for, licenses. I thle lives of those dwelling there in isolation would point out that this reservation in the more bearable, to encourage them to remain Bill will supply a want in the North-West, there and to induce others to go there. The without being- irksome to those who must wvar brought home to us the fact that we give the service or those who welcome it, cannot continue to watch a decline in the I think the point was raised by the mem- population of the North-West portion of ber for Pilbara, or his colleague from Roe- the State. Unless we are prepared to en- bourne, on the last occasion, that lie thought courage a greater population in that area, the air service that renders such valuable I am doubtful whether we have the right to aid to that part of the State mnight get retain that portion of Western Australia. the consideration given to road transport The Bill is small. I think it will he effec- by the hoard in the southern portions oC tive in its results. At least the Bill repre- the State, namely, financial nssistanee by sents a sincere endeavour on the part of the way of subsidy in order that it might trans- Government to do that which might have port goods and other requisites at a rate been considered and done many years ago. I such as to make it practicable for the people mlove- in those areas to enjoy the service. That That the Bill ble now read a second time. could not be done, owing to two provisions Question put and passed. in the parent Act. Firstly, these services Bill read a second time. wvent north of the 26th parallel and were outside the jurisdiction of the Transport Board. Secondly, there was no provision BILL-FEEDING STUFFS ACT in the State Transport Co-ordination AMENDMENT, (No. 2). Act or in the Road Transport Subsidy Act for the Transport Board to subsidise Second Reading. air services, although provision was made for THE MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE the subsidising of the -building of aero- (Hon. J. T. Tonkin-North-East Fremantle) d rornes. [5.32] in moving the second reading said: There is provision in this measure to give Owing to an inadvertence, the motion for the the Transport Board power, where it deems Order of Leave to introduce the Feeding it wise so to do, to subsidise air services as Stuffs Act Amendment Bill (No. 1), which I well as road services. Ia 1937, the Road recently placed before the House, was not in Transport Subsidy Act became law, and pro- accordance with the Title of the Bill as vided for the subsidising of services, but was drafted. Therefore, when the Bill was actu- dlistinct and apart from the State Transport ally introduced in this Chamber, it did not Co-ordination Act, although its rightful meet the requirements of Standing Order place was in that Act because it provided No. 265 inasmuch as it was not strictly in for the distribution of the funds pertaining pursuance of the Order of Leave. There to transport services, and, as it was essential was nothing for it bat to have the Order to alter some of the wording of the Road discharged from the notice paper and the Transport Subsidy Act, opportunity has Bill re-introduced. I am afraid I may have been grasped to put that Act in its right- to do that with another measure I have al- full place in the State Transport Co-ordina- ready p~resen ted, and steps have been taken tion Act. Provision is made in this Bill to to ensure that this sort of thing shall not repeal it as a separate Act and incorpor- OMIur again. ate it in the State Transport Co-ordination Mr. Mann: Who is to blame for the posi- Act, where it belongs. tion?9 436 436[ASSEMBLY.]

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE: was an oversight when the Act was prey I shall be compelled to cover some of the ously amended. I move- ground I did before, but I shall not deal That the Bill be now read a second time. with the matter as fully as I did previously. On It is desirable, however, that I should refresh motion by Mr. Mann, debate ai the memory of members with regard to the Journed. main reason for. the necessity of the introduction of this legislation. Under the Feed- BILLr-LEGISLATIVE, COUNCIL ing Stuffs Act, when a manufacturer desires REFERENDUM. to register a stock food he is obliged to set Message. out on his application form the analysis Message from the Lieut.-Governor nc of the food he desires registered. Section 5 ceived and read recommending appropria of that Act requires that, with regard to tion for the purposes of the Bill. stock food, the minimum percentages of Second Beading. crude protein and crude fat and the maximum percentage of crude fibre must be Order of the Day read for the resumptici stated. In a stock food which is a protein- f rom the 20th August of the debate on th rich concentrate, a high percentage of fat second reading. is a distinct disadvantage inasmuch as the Point of orer. fat adversely affects the digestibility and Mr. Watts: I desire to raise a point o biological value of the crude protein. There- order and to seek your ruling, Mr. Spcakei fore instead of controlling the minimum of -is to whether this Bill does not offeni crude fat in such a food it is necessary to against Standing Order No, 265. The Orde control the maximum amount because the of Leave for this Bill was-- more fat the food contains the less valuable ]For leave to introduce a Bill for "An Ac it is for the required purpose. to submit to a referendum certain questions ii relation to the Legislative Council as a con The Bill therefore proposes that with re- stitezent part of the Parliament of the State.' gard to all meatmeals anl applicant for There are two objections to which I desir registration of a food shall not state the to make reference. The first is that in M' minimum quantity of crude fat but the maxi- opinion-and I trust, Sir, in yours--the pro mum quantity. Thus the Bill will alter the vision in Clause 6 commencing with thi position from what it is at present. Section question referring to the abolition of thi 5 requires the declaration of the minimum Legislative Council, which abolition, if give: amounts of crude protein and crude fat and effect to, would cease to make the Legislativi the maximum of crude fibre; the Bill is Council any part of the State Parliament a designed to make it obligatory upon the ap- all, is against the Order of Leave. I submit plicant to state the minimum amount of secondly, that the fact that the Bill, ii crude protein and the maximum amount of Clauses 12, 18 and 19, purports to amen( crude fat as well as the maximum amount of (lie Electoral Act, and that there is no men tion of such intention in the Order of Leavi crude fibre. or in any other part of the Bill except (hi Mr. Mann: Will this make -it uniform clauses to which I have referred, means thai throughout Australia? the measure is not in accordance with ou] Stan ding Orders or the practice of intro The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE: ducing Bills, and ought to he withdrawn. Yes. When the Act was previously amended I submit that the draftsmanship of thi with legislation in other to bring it into line measure can he called into question, becausi States, it was intended with regard to meat- I contend that clauses have been inserter meal that the minimum amount of crude pro- which hear no relationship whatever to thi tein and the Maximum amount of crude fat Order of Leave as submitted and arced to should he stated. Owing to an oversight in We have just had a similar example in draftingr a minimum amount of crude fat smaller ease. I submit that if there be an' was stipulated instead of the maximum, so doubt as to whether MY point of order V the amendment in the Bill I now place be- completely tenable or no, the point of orde' fore members is designed to put right what should at least be given the benefit of thi [22 AUGUST, 1946.] 43 7 doubt, because this House is entitled to de- ments to the Electoral Act in this measure mand of its draftsman and others who arc and without making any reference whatever responsible for the presentation of Bills to to those amendments in the Title or Order tbis House that they are presented strictly of Leave. in accordance with the Standing Orders of The Alinister for Justice: This measure this House and in accordance with parlia- is a replica of last year's Bill. mentary practice. As I have already mentioned, the Title and Order of Leave pro- Mr. Watts: I cannot help that. This mat- vide for a Legislative Council referendum, ter was investigated by me because of the in regard to which the Council is a consti- unfortunate position ill which the Minister tuent part and parcel of Parliament and the for Agriculture found himself regarding a question contained in paragraph (a) of somewhat similar occurrence. On that ac- Clause 6, proposed to be asked, is as to whe- count I began to take some interest in it. ther it should be abolished and therefore it It seemed to me that the procedure with re- would mean that the Legislative Council gard to this measure was not the right pro- would no longer be a constituent part of cedure. If we allow the Rules and Standing Parliament. I turn from that to Clause 12 Orders of this House to be infringed, as which nets out in Subelause (2)- they appear to have been infringed in two All the provisions of the Electoral Acts re- instances in this case, ive shall Aind ourselves lating to voting by post shall, as far as may ultimately in such a chaotic state that we be, and with such reasonable modifications or shall not know where iwe are in regard to variations thereof as may be necessary, but subject to Section 13 of this Act be applied our legislation. Consequently, I decided to and be ohserved in relation to voting by post bring t1 0 mnatter before the House in order at the referendum, save and except that in to obtain your ruling, Mr. Speaker. It was every ease postal vote officers shall send postal difficult to find many authorities on this votes received by them direct to thle Chief Electoral Officer. point because the position is so simple that authorities have not felt the need to deal Even if I ignored, for the purposes of the with it. point of order, the latter part having re- The Minister for Justice: What is your ference to the despatch of postal votes to main objection? the Chief Electoral Officer, Subelause (2) of Clause 12 provides that the Electoral Act Mr. Watts: I have two objections which shall be amended, because the whole pro- I have dealt ivith at some length. First of posal is subject to Clause 12 of this measure. all a Bill that proposes in its Title to deal Turning now to Clauses IS and 19 of the with the Legislative Council as a constituent Bill, we find that somewhat similar condi- part of the Parliament of this State pro- tions prevail- poses by Clause 6 to abolish it, and so is contrary to the Order of Leave. Reference 18. Insofar as the regulations made under the Electoral Acts cannot be applied or mjade to that should have been made in the Title applicable or are not sufficient for the pur- and in the Order of Leave. My second ob- poses of this Act, the Governor may make jection is that the Bill, particularly by regulations not inconsistent with this Act pre- Clause 12, actually amends the Electoral Act, scribing all matters which are necessary or convenient to be prescribed for carrying out and no reference is made to that in the Title or giving effset to this Act. or in the Order of Leave. This surprised 19. Any Act or omission by any officer, me when I came to peruse the Bill. The elector or other person in relation to thle taking whole Title of the Hill stands out in strongest of the vote at the referendum under this Act contrast to the Title of the Bill proposed which would be and constitute an offence by the Minister for Transport, which Title, against thle Electoral Acts, if such act or omnis- sion had occurred in relation to an election with most meticulous care, seems to deal of the Legislative Assembly, shall be an offence with every small aspect of the measure. That against this Act, and tile officer, elector, or is undoubtedly a Bill which has been given other person may be prosecuted for such very careful thought and attention, every offence under this Act... effort having apparently been made to draft So it is quite obvious that the draftsman has it strictly in accordance with our rules and departed from an extremely desirable prac- procedure. Let me quote Standing Order tice-if not one which wvas actually requisite 265, wvhich reads- under our Standing Orders-and the prac- Every Bill not prepared pursuant to the tice of the House by incorporating amend- Order of Leave, or according to the Rules and [ASSEMBLY.)

Orders of the House, shall be ordered to be The Acting Premier: I consider that the withdrawn. Leader of the Opposition has not proved, I submit that that applies to this measure. by the two points he has put forward, his "May," who is frequently quoted in this claim that the Bill is ont of order on the House, sometimes with respect and some- ground that it is not in accord with the times without, observes in the Twelfth Edi- Order of Leave. It may be that there is tion, page 351- some insufficiency of order somewhere in In prepariag Bills, care must be taken that connection with the whole proceeding, but they do not contain provisions which are not certainly nut on either of the two points authorised by the Order of Leave... submitted by the Leader of the Opposition. If it should appear that these Rules have This is not a Bill to abolish riot been observed, the House will order it to the Legislative be withdrawn. Council. Mr. floney: Surely it embodies that pos- I have from time to time taken some small sibility, does it not? interest in the drafting of Parliamentary Bills in an endeavour to follow the mind of The Acting Premier: It does not. This the draftsman in some of the involved mea- is a Bill which will seek from the electors sures that are placed before us. I have a of Western Australia an expression of work entitled "Legislative Drafting and opinion on what they consider should be Forms," Fourth Edition, by Sir Alison Rus- done in connection with the Legislative sell, K.C., published fairly recently, in which Council. he mentions several things to indicate to a Mr. Doney: Customarily, what action fol- draftsman what he should do in matters of lows that? thisj sort. At page 16, he sakys-- The Acting Premier: The electors are to No clause should be inserted in or annexed to be asked whether in the first place they an Act which is foreign to what the Title of such Act imports. favour the abolition of that Chamber and, alternatively, whether they favour adult There is nothing in the Title of this Bill suffraze for that Chamber. If a majority of to indicate that substantial amendments are the electors at a referendum to be held de- contemplated to the electoral law;, and on. cide in favour of abolition and the Govern- that ground I submit that it cannot survive ment agrees to give effect legislatively to this stage of the proceedings, although when that expression of opinion, it will be neces- corrected, it may he presented in another sary for the Government to introduce into formn for the consideration of the House. Parliament a Bill with that objective in Sir A lison Russell also says- view. If that Bill, when introduced, is out The draftsman should never be led into of order in relationship to the Order of dlealing with two different matters in the one Leave, that will be the time to raise the Act. For example, lie should not frame an particular point raised this afternoon by Act centitled the Transport Act, 1938, to deal with two such matters ais railways and motor the Leader of the Opposition. The passing earM. of this Bill can in no way of itself abolish the Legislative Council. Later on denlireg with tile question of the Ion~r Title,, het sayls- Mr. Doney: It is the necessary first step, Every Act has a long Title, which indicates is it not9 the general purpose of the ordinance and may The Acting Premier: It is not neces- bie referred to for the purpose of ascertaining sarily the first step. The Government could, its general scope. it forms part of the Act. withont any referendum, bring down a Bill ii nwi xplnton' note he says- for the abolition of the Legislative Council. In old dasys it u1sedI not to lie so, but now Mr. Doney: This Bill, therefore, is quite the Title is an important part of the Act, and extraneous so far as it refers to the refer- is ao treated in both Houses of Parliament. ondum. Oii thle Iwo points I have mentioned, I The Acting Premier: This Bill, as I am think T have made out a ease that the pro- sure the Member for Willhianis-Narrogin visions of the Bill are not sufficiently in ac- knows very well, despite his present ob- eorel with the Order of Leave to permit of stinacy, is a Bill to ask the electors of West- it- heing fuirther discussed without being ern Australia for their opinion as to whether withdrawn and suitably amended. they favour the abolition of the Legislative (22 AUGUST, 1946.]4zl 439

Council. If the people by a majority vote would be associated with a referendum of express an opinion in favour of that objec- this kind. I consider the procedure set out tive there is no oblig-ation on the part of in the Bill is much more sensible than the the Government to take further action. one I have outlined had it been included Mr. Doney; Of course there is not. There in the Bill. So I suggest that on the two is no obligation on the Government. main points which the Leader of the Opposi- tion put forward he has not justified his The Acting Premier: It will be entirely contention that the Bill is not in order in at the discretion of the Government at the accordance with the Order of Leave as ac- time as to whether it brings down a Bill cepted by the House on a previous to give legislative effect to that opinion. occasion. There might, as I said at the beginning, be lion. J1. C. Willek: The Secession Bill some other point of invalidity somewhere in was passed, but that did not bring secession the whole matter. If there is, I am not to Western Australia. aware of it and I suggest it will be necessary, The Acting Premier: I therefore submit before the point of order can be sustained, that the argument of the Leader of the Op- for some new point to be put forward. position on that particular point is not ap- Mr. McDonald: I have not had an op- plicable to the circumstances associated with portunity to examine the matters raised by this proposed legislation. The other point raised by him was that the Bill, in effect, the Leader of the Opposition except during would have the result of amending the Elec- the time that this debate has been occupying toral Act and therefore that that part of the House. I do, however, want to com- mend to you, Mr. Speaker, for your consid- the measure was not in order, as the proper procedure to amend the Electoral Act would eration, the matters which the Leader of the Opposition has raised. One would have be to bring down a separate Bill and have thought that a Bill of this it debated and decided upon its merits. kind would he introduced under a motion of leave pro- Mr. Watts: Or, alternatively, to give a viding for a reference to the people of cer- different Order of Leave for this Bill. tain questions of amendment of the Consti- The Acting Premier: Or, alternatively, tution in relation to the existence or aboli- to amplify the Order of Leave for this tion of the Legislative Council and the fran- Bill. As I understand the Electoral Act, chise for the election of members of the it is an Act related to the holding of Legislative Council. That, I think, is the Parliamentary elections in this State. This usual procedure in the Commonwealth Par- referendum will not be a Parliamentary liament. When that Parliament passes aL election and consequently the Electoral Act, Bill with the objective of amending the Con- in respect of its particular and legal rela- stitution, it is-if my memory serves me tionship to Parliamentary elections, does not rightly-always a. Bill to provide for a refer- logically come under consideration at this endum in relation to an amendment of the time- For the purpose of simplification Constitution. and the saving of time and effort- Hon. J. C. Willeock: 'No. That is pro- Mr. Watts: You cannot use short cuts vided in the Constituation. through the Standing Orders. Mr. McDonald: I do not think it is. The Acting Premier: -and paper, the Hon. J. C. Wilicock: Yes, it is, draftsman quite fairly, and I think quite sensibly, makes this Bill say that the Elec- Mr. McDonald: It may be. I bow to toral Act shall he used almost entirely in the recollection of the member for Gerald- relation to the referendum, but that in cer- ton, but that is how it actually operates. tain respects it shall he modified. It would, Hon. J. C. Willeock: The Commonwealth of course, have been possible for the drafts- cannot alPte its constitution without a refer- man to include in this Bill a whole mass endum. Parliament can alter the State's of procedure as to how people should vote, Constitution. us to how ballot papers should be made Mr. McDonald: I am coming to that. I available to them, as to how the count should know quite wveil that the Commonwealth Con- he conducted and all the rest of the thou- stitution cannot be altered without a refer- sand and one actions and circumstances that endum, although increased powvers may he 440 440ASSEMBLY.] given to the Comnmonwealth by any Parlia- so far as to say that it would not have ment in relation to the area which is under conveyed to me that there was a proposal that Parliament's control. But the fact to abolish the Legislative Council; in fact, remains-if my memory serves me rightly not having looked at the Bill very carefully -that when any amendment is sought but having heard the Order of Leave, I made to the Constitution, it is and would be the mistake of making a statement that the under an Order of Leave to introduce a new Bill had dropped the abolition of the Bill for the amendment of the Constitu- Legislative Council. That is 'what the tenor tion, and the Order of Leave would then of the Order of Leave actually conveyed to proceed to specify the particular amendment me. I pass for the moment to the matter which it was proposed to submit to the of the Electoral Act, and I pause sufficiently people. This Bill does not in so many words long to say that if the Commonwealth is to relate to any amendment of the Constitution be taken as any precedent in regard to com- at all. It proposes, under the Order of pliance with Standing Orders and Parlia- Leave, to submit certain questions, and those mentary procedure, it, if my recollection questions are in relation to the Legislative is right, has a specific Act, the Constitution Council as a constituent part of the Parlia- Alteration Referendum Act, which does not ment of the State. refer or apply to the contents of the Com- The question might well have been-I am monwealth Electoral Act, but all the neces- not assuming it was-in something of the sary details for taking a referendum arc in- same form, a question in relation to the cluded in the Commonwealth Constitution Legislative Council, whether or not it shall Alteration Referendum Act. It may be cum- continue as a constituent part of the Par- brous, hut it was apparently thought necs- liament of the State, and whether or not, sary in regard to the Commonwealth that if it does continue as a constituent part of all this procedure should be incorporated in the Parliament of the State, the franchise the Act, which was to deal with alterations should be altered. There is nothing alarm- to the Constitution. So, if that precedent ing about that, because my experience goes is worth anything, it is distinctly in support back to Orders of Leave which were some- of the point of order raised by the Leader times very comprehensive in nature and of the Opposition. which made quite sure that they covered Hon. J. C. Willeodk: I would like to every possible matter which should be cov- point out that a similar position arose to ered to show the prospective contents of the the one now under discussion when the Par- Bill. Therefore I felt, when I heard the liament of this State decided to ask the Leader of the Opposition, that he had electors what they thought about secession. raised a point well worthy of your consid- Mr. Watts: Nothing was wrong with the eration, Mr. Speaker, because a reading of Title of that Bill. the 'Order of Leave would certainly convey Hon. J. C. Willeock: No, hut it was simi- to most minds that the questions related to lar to this. That is all this Bill does. We at Chamber of Parliament which was to be know that the referendum was carried, but a continuing part of the Parliament of the that did not in fact give the right to this State. State to secede. All it did was to afford Hon. W. D. Johnson: Whether or not. the people an opportunity to express their Mr. McDonald- Exactly. I accept com- opinion by referendum as to whether steps pletely what the hon. member says. if should be taken to approach the Imperial Parliament, which had power to alter the those words had been put in, there would Constitution that it had ranted to us up he no need for a motion in this regard. to that stage. This is not a Bill to abolish Hon. W. D. Johnson: You are trying to the Legislative Council. I wish it were, limit it now. because the procedure would then be very Mr. McDonald. They were not put in. simple. But if this Bill passes, another The whole Order of (Leave relates to a Bill must be introduced into this Parlisment Chamber of this Parliament, which is a con- and passed through this House-which I stituent part of the Parliament. Without think might he done very easily-and also having had time to examine this, I will go through the Legislative Council. Conse- (22 AuausT, 1946.3 4414 quently, a different procedure altogether is tea suspension, I will leave the Chair until adopted. We have the experience of 7.30 p.m. Queensland in this matter. A referendum was held in that State but the people did Sitting suspended from 6.10 to 7.30 p.m. not support the abolition of the Upper House; yet a Bill to effect that abolition Mir. Speaker: Regarding the point of was carried through the Parliament, in op- order raised by the Leader of the Opposi- position to the expressed will of the people. tion, first of all I should like to draw at- This Bill bears no relationship at all to the tention to the fact that every care is taken abolition of the Upper House. Our ex- to see that all Bills introduced into the perience with regard to the Secession Bill H-ouse are in accordance with the Order of clearly demonstrates what should be done. Leave. As is known, I have had to order the withdrawal of two Bills which did not Mr. McDonald: It seems to make some conform to Standing Order No. 265 during mention of the abolition of the Upper this session. In regard to the first question House. raised by the hon. member I should like to Hon. J. C. Willcoek:* It asks me, as ank point out that Clause 6 only provides for elector, what I think of it. I may say I the submission to the electors of certain think it ought to be abolished, but that questions. The answer to these questions does not make any difference to anybody by the electors does not, in itself, alter the in the whole of Western Australia. All I Constitution of this Parliament; other legis- have done is to express an opinion. If the lation must be passed to implement their Government' of the day, when considering decision. In regard to the second point, the results of the referendum, decides it will I would point out that the Electoral Act endeavour to give effect to the wishes of the is in no way amended by this Bill. We have people, expressed through the referendum, no machinery for the holding of a referen- it does so. So far as the Commonwealth is dum, except in the ease of the Licensing concerned, we have a different set of circum- Act, which provides for submission to the stances altogether applying to us, inasmuch electors of the question of local opinin. The Secession Referendum Act contains as the Commonwealth consists of a number exactly the same provisions as are contained of States joined together in a partnership. in this Bill. I will quote the Order of Those States are very jealoais of giving Leave on that occalsion. Although it con- powers to the Commonwealth, and are anx- tained provision for the holding of the elec- ious to preserve the powers they have. So tion the Order of Leave was-- a cumbrous and very expensive method was An Act to submit to a referendum questions set up to deal with alterations to the Con- in relaition to the State of Western Australia stitution of the Commonwealth. It provides aud the Federal Commonwealth established uinder the Commonwealth of Australia Consti- that a majority of people and a majority of tution Act (Imperial). States shall vote in favour of proposals to alter the Constitution before such alteration I rule that this Bill is in accordance with may be effected. They do not have to go the provisions of the Standing Orders and the practice of this Rouse. back to the Commonwealth Parliament, because, according to the Commonwealth Con. Debate Resumed. stitution, if a referendum is carried the Con- stitution is altered, whereas if a referendum MR. W. HEONEY (Pilbara) [7.34]: I is carried here the Government of the day propose to submit a few reasons why this has to introduce a Bill to give effect to the Rouse should puss the Bill at present being opinion expressed by the referendum. I considered, and trust that in the interests really did not want to intervene in this de- of the Parliamentary system of government bat;, and I think I can with confidence leave another place will also pass the measure. the matter to the Speaker's ruling. There hove been previous attempts by this House to ulter the Constitution to amend, Mr. Speaker: I requnire a few minutes to as it were, the powers or rights of another consider the verdict. I am quite satisfied place. Some time ago a Bill was introduced in my own mind, but as it is so close to the to amend the present franchise of the Legis- 442 [ASSEMBLY.)

lative Council and to provide for adult dation of this country in 1788. From that f ranchise. That 'was defeated in another year until 1823 the Governor of New South place. Not very long ago the present Wales was the sole and exclusive Governor. Minister for Justice introduced a Bill to He was the Government. alter the powers of the Legislative Council, In 1823 an Act known as An Act for the to bring them more into line with the powers Better Administration of Justice in New now enjoyed by the House of Lords under South WXales was passed. It made provi- what is known as the British Parliament sion for the inclusion of up to seven mem- Act of 1911. That also was defeated, and bers in the Legislative Council and certain I understand that in recent years a measure prominent Government officials were em- was introduced in this House providing for powered by the Governor to itadvise him in a householder qualification for the electors certain capacities, and also in regard to the for the Legislative Council. That was de- imposition of taxes. That, in 1823, was the feted. first step towards responsible Government The time has arrived when the people in Australia. A few years later, in 1842, of this State should be given the oppor- there was an Act for the Better Govern- tunity of determining whether they are in ment of New South Wales and Van Die- favour of two Chambers and, if they are, man's Land. By that measure the previous wvhether they are in favour of adult fran- Constitution was altered but there was still chise for another place. The Council has de- to be only one Chamber, of 36 members, feated all efforts on the part of this Cbamn- two-thirds of whom were elected and one- her to alter Or restrict its powers, and I third nominated. Later, in 1850, an Act consider that the referring of the matter known as The Australian Colonies Govern- to the people is the right and proper thing ment Bill was introduced and, when passed to do. I think it is as well, in discussing a by the British House of Parliament it gave Bill of this character, to look at the back- to Port Phillip, Van Dieman's Land, and ground in order to ascertain the reasons South Australia, a constitution of their own. why the Government is attempting to sub- that the first responsible Govern- muit the question of the abolition of the I find menit was introduced into New South Wales Council, or that of adult franchise for the with two Chambers in 1S.56, in Victoria in Council, to thre people of this State. 1859, and in Queensland the first Parlia- On delving into British history wve find ment was opened in 1860. In 'South Aus- that nearly 700 years ago-in the Parlia- tralia the first Parliament was opened in ment of Simon de Montefort in 1295-the 1857, and in Western Australia responsible King called the Lords Spiritual and Tem- government was granted in 1890. In Tas- poral and the Commons together, but before mania the first Parliament was opened about long it was found that the Lords Spiritual the middle of last century. The point I wish and Lords Temporal had something in com- to make is that as the State Parliaments mon. It is an historical fact and an wvere established the Legislative Councils historical incident that there were two grew up side by side with the popular Houses in Ryitain rather than-for that Chambers. Under their constitution the time at least-three Houses. Right privileged classes of those days saw to it down through the ages the struggle has that Chambers were set up in the various been between the Commons and the re- States which would restrict any likelihood presentatives of the privileged classes, of a majority of the people legislating as until in 1011 the right of veto was taken they thought fit. It may be interesting to from the House of Lords in the British read an extract from a document written by Parliament. It is interesting to recall that the then Governor of Tasmania, Sir William for some years in Swveden there were four Dlenison, and despatched to His Majesty's Houses of Parliament, and in France, up Covernment in 1848. During the course of to the first revolution, there were three the statement Sir William said- Houses of Parliament. I will not weary The broad plan of a party, As in America, members by r~ferving too much to the Bri- received the support of the community, and tish Parliament. Let us come to our Aus- though there are ninny who wvould gladly avail themselves of any opportunity of raising them- tralian Constitution and consider the his- selves above the general level, yet hiere, as torical records from the time of the foun- in America, any attempt to do so would be (22 AUGUST, 1946. 44344

frustrated by the jealousy of the remainder from the very earliest stages the property of the community. Your Lordship can hardly qualification was a factor in the entitlement form Any idea of thle character of the population of these colonies. It is usual to assume of anyone to be registered as a voter. One that colonies ore off-shoots from the parent had to own not personal property but real stock, containing in themselves the germs of estate. all the elements of whlich society in the mother country is composed. This cant only be said I do not propose to traverse in detail the of any colony with many reservations, but it Constitutions of the different States nor to cannot be said of these colonies with any refeor at length to the requirements that appearance of justice or truth. There is an essentially democratic spirit which actuates the people had to comply with in connection large mass of the community (apparently the with the franchise. Suffice to say that in crimnal offence in those days), and it is with, four of the six States-that is, excluding a view to check the development of this Queensland and New South Wales-the pro- spirit, to prevent its coming into operation, perty qualification prevailed. In two of the that I suggest the formation of an Upper House. States 'certain people who otherwise do not owvn property are entitled to vote. Certain That was the reason permeating the mind of professional classes come within that cate- the Governor of Tasmania just on a cen- gory, including barristers, medical practi- tury ago and naturally an Upper House was tioners and certain retired naval and mili- "eL and truly established in the State. I tary officers. The point I wish to make is find also that one of the greatest statesmen that if there was any justitleation for two of Australia, one who helped to make Aus- Houses of Parliament one hundred years tralian history-I refer to William Charles ago, that justification no longer exists be- Wentworth-was appointed in 1853 chair- cause, after all is said and done, one of the man of a Select Committee by the Legis- reasons, among others, that the second lative Council of New South Wales. That Chamber system was introduced was to en- body was to report on the form of govern- sure-we have all heard of the exelusionists ment that should be adoptcd by the State -and the cinancipationists of the early day. of New South Wales. I find this record in of the colony of New South Wales-that the a volume written by a lecturer at the Syd- exelusionists would not he subject to the ney University, Mr. E. Harris- emancipationists. In 'May, 1853, in New South Wales a Select In those days there wa no system of corn- Committee, with William Charles Wentworth as chairman, was appointed to draw np a Con- pulsory education. It was recognised with at stitutionk for the colony. measure of justillcation. that only those with The committee's report -%as submitted to reasonable knowledge, intellectual capacity the Couiieil in July, 1853; it provided for two and intelligence should have a vote in the Houses of Parliament. The lower House was government of the country so far as the to be chosen on a franchise which would give Legislative Council was concerned. What is a votu to nearly all adult males. the position today7 A system of compulsory There was provision also made for a Colonial House of Lords. Those onl whom titles were education has been set up. There is a free originally conferred should sit in this Upper 'University, We hare technical schools and House--or Legislative Council-for life. Those innumerable faicilities enabling people to who inherited titles should, in conjunction with acquaint themselves with the history of the original patentees still living, select a certain number of their order to sit. Government of their country and the man- Wentworth remarked-regarding this propo- ner in which laws are made; to acquaint sal to constitute a titled airistocracy that ''tne themselves with their responsibilities and Select Committee had no desire to sow the seeds rights as well as their opportunities so that of a future democracy." every person over the age of 21 years should That serves to indicate the ideas that William be entitled to the right to Vote- Charles W~enitworth had in mind -regarding I have mentioned briefly the qualifications the setting tipof a Legislative Council. 1 respecting the Legislative Councils in the think that in one way we can count our- different States, and it nmay be interesting selves comparatively lucky in Australia in to remark at this stage that what all states- the knowledge that no titled aristocracy was men at the cud of the last century recog- set up in any State. With regard to the con- nised as an absolute (ncessity was that, stitutions of the Legislative Councils in the sooner or later, the Australian people had different States, it is interesting to note that to be welded under one Constitution into 444 444[ASSEMBLY.] one nation. It was recognised, too, that with by members other than Labour members respect to certain matters affecting the whole and by a certaia section outside that another ,of the people, Australia should speak with place is a House of reviewy, that it is a one voice. Men like Parkes, Dleakin, Grif- Rouse to check hasty legislation. I sub- fiths, Kingston, Isaacs and others, after a mnit-and I do not think my statement will series of conventions and a search for a he contradited-that 99 per cent. of the Constitution suitable to be adapted to Aus- members of another place represent politi- tralian conditions and Australian people, cal parties. I am not complaining about decided to more or less adopt the American that, but if there were any justification in Constitution. What does that provide for earlier days, for Legislative Councils to It provides for two Houses of Parliament, hold themselves up as Houses of review, and each House of Parliament throughout that justification no longer exists. the length and breadth of Australia is elected on the adult franchise. The claim has also been made that if the second Chamber were abolished some- MNr. North: You mean America? thing drastic might happen. What would Mr. W. HEGNEY: No, I refer to Aus- happen if there wvere a Liberal-Country tralia. Both the Senate and the House of P-arty Government here tomorrow? Would Representatives are elected on the basis of not a majority in both Houses be of the adult franchise. With all due respect to the same political colour? Could not they con- responsible positions held by members of this spire, if they so wished, just the same as Parliament, the matters dealt with by the if there were only one Chamber? The Australian Parliament are far more import- suggestion that some dire consequences would ant than those that concern the subsidiary result to the people of this State if there legislatures of the States. When the two were only one Chamber is entirely without Commonwealth Houses of Parliament were foundation. W"e have only to point to the State of Queensland. That State had a set up at the inauguration of Federation,' it was done on the understanding that the Legislative Council appointed on a nominee more populous States would not be able to basis until 1922. In that year the Theo- over-ride the less populous or far-distant dore Government took steps to abolish the States. That is the reason why, while the Council. The Labour Party was in office Hlous;e of Representatives, which is the in Queensland in 1914 and continued in ,equivalent in the Federal sphere of the office for seven years after the Legislative Legislative Assembly in Western Austrn- Council had been abolished. In 1929, the hia. was elected on single electorates and Moore Government took office, but did not the adult franchise, the Seniate was con- re-establish a Legislative Council. The stituted of six members from each of the Moore Government lasted for only three States as a protection for the less populous years, and the Labour Government has been States. All throueh the years that have legislating for Queensland from 1932 to sinc elapsed, those Houses have been elec- 1946. This effectively disposes of the bogey ted on the adult franchise. that if the people of this State so decided and a second Chamber no longer existed, What has happened in this and other something drastic would happen to them. States? We admit that the Senate was constituted to protect the interests of the There are certain reasons that can be less populous Sates, but nobody on this advanced and, to my way of thinking, with side of the House, and I doubt whether great force, as to why this referenduhm any member on the Opposition side, would shulbe taken, thus giving- the People an deny that the Senate is just as much a opportunity to determine whether they de- party House as is the House of Repre- sire a continuance of the presenit constitu- sentatives,. One has onl-y to look at the tion or otherwise. I have mentioned educa- designations of the various candidates. We tion as one factor that should be taken have as candidates for the Senate. Labour into account nod which should atlter our men. Liberals, and Country Party Men. outlook a", to the need for second Chambers. They are not standing as Western Austra- T submnit with all due respect to another lian representatives; they are standing as: place that there is something wrong with party representatives. This briaers me to a constituin wvhieh provides that a man the claim made over a long period of years or woman of 21 years of age may nominate [22 AubGUST, 1946.] 44.5 for the Legislative Assembly and possibly that the measure should have been accom- become Premier of the State at the age of panied by a certificate declaring that it had 22, and yet be denied the right to nomi- been passed by an absolute majority. As nate for the Legislative Council until he this had not been done it was claimed that or she attains the age of 30 years. There the Bill was not properly before that House, is also this anomaly and inju~tice: A and it was thrown out. I have dealt with person may be 21 or even 40 years of age, the claim that the Council acts as a House but unless he or she owns property of a of review, is a non-party House, and acts value of £50, or pays rent to the value as a check upon hasty legislation. I do not of £17, or has a lease of a value of £10 propose to enlarge on that point; suffice it with a year to run, that person is not to say that the Legislative Council is not a iualified to vote for another place. No House of review and that it exercises more doubt this happens at times: A person may power than does the House of Lords. It own) real estate to the value of £50,000 and exercises more power than does the Senate- be entitled to a vote for the Legislative the second Chamber in the Commonwealth Council In his wisdom, he may decide Parliament-and no matter what legislation to convert his real estate into personal may be passed by this Chamber, it can be property and invest the £50,000 in Common- vetoed by the Legislative Council. wealth bonds. If he did that, he would Unless the Council proves amenable and be denied the right of a vote for the Legis. modifies its demands, we can do nothing. lative Council. All this talk about democracy is fallacious. Mr. TDoney: Do you think there are many It is a misnomer while the present position cases like that? obtains. We have been charged with desir- ing to establish an autocracy by our pro- Mr. W. HEGNEY: In the timber industry posal. That was actually a suggestion made are to be found sonic of the finest men in by a previous speaker. If anybody can tell the State. Many of them are living in me that the effort to submit to the people a houses of three or four rooms, for which question on a specific subject for their de- they pay 5s. or 6s. a week, but, by virtue termination is a desire to set up an auto- of their location and economic position, cracy, then I do not know what democracy a vote for the Legislative they are denied is. Council. Yet, if one of those houses were Member: Was that made mention of in shifted to Nedlands or some suburb where a brick area had not been proclaimed, the this House?9 occupier would be entitled to a vote for Mr. J. Hegney: Yes, by the member for the Legislative Council. Mt. Marshall. These are a few of the anomalies and Mr. W. HEGNEY: Another point made injustices that need to be rectified, and the by a previous speaker was that he was afraid people should be given an opportunity to of a minority gaining control. With all determine whether they shall be rectified. due respect to the Leader of the Opposition, There is another important point. In some I believe that recently he made a statement of the States, plural voting was abolished in the Press-I stand open to correction- nearly 59 years ago, but here it is possible somnewhat to the effect that the Legislative for a man owning 10 blocks of land, each Council was a barrier against Communism. valued at £50 and situated in each of the 10 Several members interjected. provinces, to exercise 10 postal votes which Mr. SPEAKER: Order! would become effective on polling day. There are men, such as farm workers, miners and Mr. W. HEGNEY: I suggest, with all sin- others, who are not entitled to a vote for cerity, that one of the ways to encourage the Legislative Council because they do not dictatorships, whether of the Nazism, Fas- own £50 worth of real estate or pay rent cismn or Communistic kind, or any other 'ism, of the value of £17 a year. is for the young people of the State to grow The arguments submitted by our oppon- up knowing that they can have a vote for ents regarding the relationship between the one House of Parliament and can then be Council and the Assembly are many and sandbagged by another House. varied. Last session, when a similar Bill was Mr. Mann: What nonsense! presented to another place, it was claimed Mr. SPEAKER: Order! 446 [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. W. HEGNEY: That is a fact. There determine whether they will have an altera- is no desire on our part for minority rule. tion of the Constitution, I have no hesita- All that we ask for in this Bill is that the tion in saying-and I make no apology for people of the State-the men and women suggesting-that the Government, either over the age of 21 years-shall be given the alone or in conjunction with other State right to say whether they desire a second Governments, should make a very strong ap- Chamber or consider it necessary, and if proach to both the Commonwealth Govern- they do, whether they think the present re- ment and the British Government for the stricted franchise should continue or whether purpose of trying to put a period to the it should be on the same basis as that for present position in this State. the Commonwealth Parliament. Mr. Mann: That is a dangerous statement Mr. Leslie: You have it in the Common- to make. wealth Parliament today. Mr. W. IIEGNEY: That is the position Mr. SPEA.KER: Order! I would take up, because the British Par- Mr. W. HEGNEY: The opponents of the liament was in the first place responsible for writing into its Bill have submitted various reasons which I statute-book the basis have enumerated. They declare they want of the Australian Constitution; and I would suggest that the Legislative Council to be a House of if the Legislative Council refused to give the people this opportunity, review; they are afraid of the minority; they are afraid of autocracy; they want a then there should he no hesitation in nick- ing- approaches both check on hasty legislation. What they are to the Commonwealth Parliament and the British Parliament, really seeking is to perpetuate the privilege despite the Statute of Westminster. If the of the Legislative Council, and prevent the people are to be given the opportunity to great mass of the people of this State from determine whether they desire a continua- having their wishes dealt with and inmple- tion of the present system, then I am pi-- mented through the activities of the Legis- pared to abide by' the will of the majority; lative Assembly. That is the real reason why but I fail to see why, in these days of de- they desire the status quo; that is the reason mocracy, or alleged democracy, there should why they desire to fight, as they always have be two Houses of Parliament in which one done, the abolition of the Legislative Coun- House, ejected on at privileged franchise and cil, the Chamber of privilege. The Council by a minority of the people compared with and the Senate, as I said before, were to be thiis Chamber, should have the right to veto Houses of review, but they are no longer and thwart the xwhes of the majority of so. They are not brakes on dictatorships. the people I would like to quote figures of recent Members: Hear, heart elections and I speak now from memory. In the election of 1943 1 think some 220,000 persons voted for the Legislative Assemlly. RON. N. KEENAN (Nedlands) (8.6]: I stand open to correction as to at few No-one in this H-ouse, and I venture also to thousand. For the contested seats in the think no-one outside this House has any Legislative Council in 1939, about 26,000 doubt whatever of the sincerity of the Mlinis- people voted. As a matter of fact, there are ter who is in charge of the Bill, no matter about 86,000 people on the Legislative Coun- what the political differences may be. The cil roll and about 270,000 on the Legislative Minister is an honourable man, as we know, Assembly roll. Try as one will, distort as and therefore I am entitled to assume-and one will, in the final analysis it is found that so are all of us entitled to assume-that a minority' of the people of the State can when hie asks the electors of Western Aus- dictate to the majority through their elected tralia to give a favourable vote on the ab~oli- representatives in the legislative halls of tion of the Legislative Council in the Par- Western Australia, and I refer to the Legis- liament of Western Australia, he himself lative Council. I do niot propose to take up believes that a unicameral system of Partin- a great deal more time, hut I would like mnial-v government is not only desirable to say that if the Legislative Council refuses1 but necessary. to pass this measure in order to give the Mr. Leslie: He indicated to the contrary people of Western Australia the chance to in his speech. [22 AUGUST, 1946.]44 447

Ilon. N-'.1{EENAN: I do not know. I lis- governing country, and is also supported tened to his speech and may have misse-3 entirely by the records of history. Further, whist the hot,, member heard. if in any social structure the rights of the Mr. Doney: I think the Minister wanted majority are the only rights to prevail then it both ways. such a structure is absolutely and certainly damned and certain to experience destruc- IMr. SPEAKER: Order! tion. Non. X. KEENAN: While I feel certain The Minister for Justice: You do not ,of the Minister's sincerity in his belief as think a minority should supersede a major- to the efficacy of the unicameral system, I ity, do youii have no knowledge whatever of the grounds on which that belief is based, whether those Ron. N. KEENAN- I do not think I as- grounds are to be the authority of consti- serted that. If the Minister 'willI do me the tutionAl essays of men of eminence who have honour of listening, I shall endeavour to examined] the Constitutions not only of our wake myself clear; and then, if I have not Home Country and of our Empire, but of made myself clear, the Minister can tell me other countries, or whether they are based so. I propose to refer to the writings of a ofl the result of examining the records of few-for I do not intend to delay the House history so as to learn from the past wihat too long-of the most eminent of the many might reasonably be expected to occur in men who have addressed themselves to the these days. Whether one or the other is task of commenting on Constitutions and the case, T nam in complete ignorance be- what are necessary features in a Constitution tause the M1inister has not said n single to achieve a desirable and profitable end. word] onl the matter. It is quite true that Let me first of all quote from John Stuart the Minister and the member for Pilbira Mill, of whom I presume very member in did reli'r to the case of Queensland andl sna this House has heard and whose works that that State had aboli-shed the Legeisla- every member has also read at some time tive C01uncil in its State Parliamnt. or other. John Stuart Mill said at page 13 But althoughi the member for Gerald- of his essay on "Representative Govern- ton reminded the House today, the ment"- Minister forgot to say that in that ease A majority in a single Chamber when it has the abolition of the Upper House in the assumed a permainent character when composed Queenslaud IParliament was in direct and flag- of the same persons habitually acting together, and always assured of victory in their own rant contradiction of the vote of the people leu s-- of Queensland given on that very issue. To my mind that action was such a scandal a very accurate description of what happens that any self-possessed democrat should ho here and will always happen her-- ashamed easily becomes despotic and orer-waening if even to mention it. released from the necessity of considering Mr. J. Hegney: The people of Queensland whether its acts will be concurred in by another constituted authority. confirmed the action by subsequently elect- ing a Labour Government. Now I propose to read from Ljeeky -whom Hon. N. KEE NAN: That only shows how again I presume almost every member his read at some time or other. In his book on it is possible to bully people. However, I "Demoeracy and Liberty" Leeky says- do not propose to deal with every inter- Of all forms of government possible among jection because in that ease I should -remain mankind I do not know one which is likely to on my feet for far too long. I desire to be wvorse thaiA the government of a single make clear what I shall endeavour to estab- omnipotent democratic Chamber. The tyranny of majorities is of all forms of tyranny that lish here tonight: That is, the proposition which in the conditions of modern life is the that it is absolutely impossible to conceive most to be feared and against which it should any effective protection for the rights of a be the chief object of a wise statesman to mninority unles there is a second Chamber provide. in existence. I am going to show that that I propose aow to read from a book by a is clearly established by every essayist who man who became a peer afterwards and was has ever attempted to write on the issue of known as Lord Actoi,, u very distinguished what should be the constitution of a self- historian. I shall quote from his book, "The [is? 448 448[ASSEMBLY.]

History of Freedom." All the essays from -to a statement made by Sir Henry Maine which I am quoting were written on the a distinguished historian. He said- subject of freedom-bow it can be saved and We do not look to a second Chamber foi preserved and what steps are necessary to infallibility. that end. Lord Acton said- In every genuine democracy a second Chamn- But apparently the member for Pilbari ber is the essential security for freedom. does, He considers that if it is not infallibih it should he wiped out of existence. Eni Hon. WV. D. Johnson: Did he refer to A. Sir Henry Maine said that we do not loot property Chamber? Did he mention a pro- to a second Chamber for infallibility hut foi perty qualification? additional security and he added- Ron. N. KEENAN: I think the hon. mem- It is hardly too much to say that in this view almost any second Chamber is better titer ber will have every opportunity to speak none. and will have every courtesy extended to him from me when he does so. In the I have laid before the House--and I air meantime I think he might remain silent. afraid I may have taxed the patience oI Hon. W. D1. Johnson:- I thought you might members--a short but nevertheless ratbei explain yourself. voluminous selection from men of the highest eminence in the British world on Mr. SPEAKER: Order! this very subject, which goes to the kernel Hon. N. KEENAN: Lord Acton wrote- of the issue 'ye are ktermining here today. A real and strong second Chamber is a sine I nowv propose to ref er to the lesson of his- qi'a non of efficient legislation and government. tory. First of all I would like to recall, I am sorry. That was not Lord Acton's state- because it is sometimes completely forgot- ment. It appeared in an article by Frederick ten, that the Athenian democracy, which Harrison, another well-known commentator existed 500 years before the coming of on Constitutions and it was written in 1910. Christ, wats the highest and the most de- serving of biredit. It stilt stands as an Mr. J. flegney: A lot of second Chambers example of the purest, cleanest and most have gone overboard since then. elteetive democracy. Although it existed Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I must ask mem- iii ancient days so that the past has, to some bers to keep order. extent, swallowed its glories, it is only right that we should remember it. In "Aristotle's Hion. N. KEENAN:- I suppose I may as- Athenian Constitution "-Aristotle, a man sume that everyone hats at some time or other living in those days, was a philosopher as heard of Sydney Webb. He was the moat well as a great writer-the author points advanced thinker on the Left Wing aide in ouit the long conflict between the people and the Victorian, Edwardian and Early Geor- in the first instance, the chieftains and after- gian reigns. In 1917 he said- wards the kings, and that they reached the There is good ground for the establishment point where their democratic system was of a second Chamber in our Parliamentary so complete that the whole of the power system preferably in the form of the Nor- wegian second Chamber where the Parliament rested in the whole of the people. That was called the Stortbing consists of two Chamber;, brought abou1t in this manner: All the one the Odeisthing which initiates legislation people met on a miound known as the Pniyx, and a second Lagthing which revises such wIc h was a big hill within the walls of legislation and suggests what amendmnent should be made ia it. Athens. There they ware obliged, by law, to mevet 40 times iii each year. Apparently I suppose, too, I may ask the House to ac- it was well known that a large nuanber cept my statement that Lord Roseberry was would take an interest in the proceedings a distinguished Liberal and Prime 'Minister because the quorum fixed was 6,000. That of England at the head of the Liberal Party. assembly was known as the Eclesia which He said- is at Greek name for "the assembled." It is There are two exceptions to the general pro- important to note that in this mother of test of all civilised communities against being demnotracies everyone of age-and there too governed by a single Chamber. the age was, as far as one know; about I shall refer lastly-for I huve no right to what it is with us, namely 21 years-took ask the House to tolerate too many extracts part. [22 AUGUST, 1946.144 449

The Minister for Justice: That was at to consideration of what is of more interest pure democracy. to us, and which has been dealt with by the member for Pilbara. in his speech-I refer to Hon. N. KEENAN: I have said so. the history of our own British Parliament of The Minister for Justice: Yes, I have which we are humble imitators and, I might read all about it. almost say, humible servants. The British Constitution, as we all know, is not a writ- Hon. X. KCEENAN: In this pure demo- ten one in this sense that it has never been cracy no business could be initiated by the Ecelesia. It could only deal with such mat- reduced to any form of writing. Therefore it has developed a flexibility of a colossal ters as had passed the preliminary examina- character and has adapted itself, in all ages tion by the council of 500, called the Boule. and phases of the British Empire, to the That, again, is a mere name in Greek. So circumstances of the day. Therefore it is there 'was a bicameral system although extremely difficult to define. it worked somewhat on the reverse plan to what we have in our mind because the Boule I pass over the primitive political uniits first passed a measure and then it was dealt of the Anglo-Saxon days which consisted, with by the Ecelesia. more or less, of legendary assemblies, until I come to the year 1213 when Hon. J. C. Willcock: By the majority. King John, being in the position of Hon. N. KEENAN: But the majority wanting funds-a. chronic condition of could not initiate anything. So I am entitled kings-sent a writ to the sheriffs of the to claim it as a conclusive example of a counties asking every county-and this bicameral system. It wotild be possible, if is preserved to-day in the British Constitu- time permitted, for me to recall the forms tion because there it will be found there are of either wholly democratic or quasi-demo- still the old county elections as distinct from cratic communities which existed in those the boroughs and the towns-for four knights far off days; in partielar, the Republic of four burghers and a reeve, who was a kind Rome. In that case the Government was of sheriiff, from a number-21-of namned entrusted not to one consul but to two, a towns. These people were to consult with point which John Stuart Mill said was of the King for the purpose of ways .and great importance. Both of these consuls, I means. How often do we hear that expres- have to admit, were elected only by the sion used in this chamber, and how little do Senate, to whom they were responsible. In we recognise that it has come down through addition to the two consuls, who were ans- all the ages!I It is a curious expression and werable to the Senate and who reported to has all that historical background. Mem- the Senate, there were two tribunes who were bers also know that in 1215, two years, later, elected by the mass of the people, and whose the barons compelled the King to accept power and authority were indefinite but al- what is called the Magna Carta. That has most equal to that of the consuls; in fact, always had a place in the history of Eng- the difference was so slight that it might he land, and in our own schools and universi- said to have been greater in some respects. ties, very much above what it deserves, be- The Minister for Agriculture: Were there cause it was merely a baronial document and not three tribunes? did not in the slightest degree contribute to any progress in what might be called national Hon. N. KEENAN: I took my notes from representation. John Stuart Mill. Apparently he made a Hon. 3. C. Willcock: It did curtail the mistake. By the means I have put before right of the king to get money. the Chamber the dangers to which I have referred of a single Chamber or authority Hon. N. KEENAN:- It did, but it was a havingr exclusive and final authority, and baronial document and certainly protected ribusing it by reason of having that exclusive the baronial class from any imposition of right, were, in a large measure, avoided but that character. It is, by no means certain not quite because the position was not suf- when the first Parliament, or what might Reiently defined. So it was, in process of properly be described as a Parliament, ar- time, undermined and the result of that sew bled. The member for Pilbara said it indermining led to the decline and fall of was the Parliament of Simon de Mon tefort, Rlome. I would like to turn for a little while but there is considerable doubt as to that, 450 450ASSEMBLY.) because there is no record of how that Par- because they were only single chambers, at liament was composed. Simon de Monte- both perished. fort's Parliament would have been in the Hon. J. C. Willeock: So did some of ti year 1263, but it is known and on -record kings. beyond doubt that in 1267 a Parliament did Mr. Cross: I thought this Bill was for assemble at Windsor, which consisted of referendum. the of 18 barons, a larger number number 'Mr. Mann: It is beyond your inteiligene, -not recorded-of clergy, and two knights at all events. from each shire and two citizens from each of 21 nominated towns. That is the first Rion, N. KEENAN: I think I am entitlE Parliament in which the three estates, so to show the danger of having a Conatito tic often mentioned, appeared. They are the consisting of one chamber. I hope ti estates of the realm, the baronage and the member for Canning will do me the honot clergy. of allowing me to address my remarks I The member for Pilbara is correct in his mind. After the deposition of Charhi rewinding this House-he deserves great I., and his execution, the House of Commor credit for the research be made into the was then largely dominated by Puritans matter-that the barons and clergy at about the head of whom was Oliver Cromwell, 0 the begi.nning of the 14th century joined the 10th March, 1649, the House of Con hands and assembled together in one cham- nions passed ant Act to abolish the House ber while, on the other hand, the knights and Lords and establish a single-chamber Pmu burghers joined hands and assembled in an- liament. I present that fact to the Ministe other chamber, and those two chambers for for his use on some other exclusive oceasici the first time then became known as the The Minister for Justice: I have readc Lords and the Commons. That evolution that. was purely fortuitous; there was no design Hlon.. N. KEENAN: Let me now remin in it. It came about, in the extraordinary the Minister that eight years later, the sair way of which I have reminded the House, Oliver Cromwell addressed the Parliamei that the whole of the British Constitution and advised it to revise and create a secon came into existence. Just then there was a chamber, which it did unanimously. demand for two Houses and the two Houses were formed on the basis of the clergy join Hon. J. C. Willeock: Cromwell was the ing hands with the barons and the knights within a year or two of his death, and wt joining hands with the burghers. That de- very senile. vice was perpetuated and there is no doubt Hon. N. KEENAN: It was a long tinr that it was perpetuated for good reasons, before his death. for it was recognised that it created a greater Hon. J. C. Willeock:- Only three or for stability than one single chamber had any years. prospect of attaining. By reason of that stability, the British Constitution has con- Hon. N. KEE NAN: I am afraid 0 tinued down through the ages until modern member for Geraldton should go to ache' days, with which we are all so well ac- again. I am speaking of 1657. qnainted. It is well illustra ted by what Hon. J, C. Willeock:, He died in 1659. happened to foreign Parliaments, because Hon. N. KEENAN: He said-I endor, the British Parliament is often spoken of every word of it and say it is entirely as the Mother of Parliamcnts. There is no accord with the authorities I have cite such thing as the Mother of Parliaments. here tonight-to the Commons- Over a century before any British Parlia- I tell you, unless you hakve some suchl thir ment existed, there was a Parliament in (as a second chamber) as a bala9nce, you eatna be safe. Spain, known as the Codtes of Aragon. There was a Parliament in France-at one And thereupon, taking the advice of a me time more Parliaments than one-known as who knew, they unanimously restored t1 States General, but in both instances they second Chamber. I sin endeavouring to pi remained single ehanmbers, and in both in- the matter exactly as it happened, withoi stances the Crown was able to corrupt them, colouring it one way or the other. I mu: [22 AUuST, 1946.]41 451 remind the House that the second chamber beyond what their numbers warranted. that was so revived was, by the action of However, as they had taken a promi- the Republican Chancellor Thurlog, limited neat part in what is known as the to the peers who had not taken part in the resistance movement, they took care to have war against the Parliament, and so the sys- a large representation so that when the ques- tern of hereditary succession was for the time tion arose in that Constituent Assembly as to being put on one side. what form the future government of France Mr. Cross: They put their own supporters should take, they would have a dominant in the matter. The result was that, in. voice because of the Communist vote, by a major- Hon. N. KEENAN: The point to be noted ity of 29, it was determined that the Consti- is the necessity for a second chamber to tution should provide for only one Chamber. control the abuse of power by a single chanm- When we remember, and know, that the her possessing sole authority. Such is the Communist Party representation in that Con- BAritish experience of the abolition of a stituent Assembly was far and away above second chamber. The attempt to govern by 100, we can appreciate how entirely it was by one chamber of Parliament is, so far as my their vote that a much larger majority of reading and knowledge go, invariably a the peolple who were in favour of an tipper child of revolution. Invariably it is the chamber were defeated. When the Consti- idea of a revolutionary party. Thus, in tution they framed was submitted to the the case of the French Revolution of 1789, French people, by a majority of over 1,000,- when a chamber was appointed-the consti- 000 they rejected the proposal that there tuent chamber, as it was called-for the pur- should be only one chamber and today there pose of making a constitution for the new are again two chambers in France. f do France, that constituent chamber strongly not want to trace at great length the his- advised that the new constitution for France torical aspect of this matter, but I should should have two chambers, but the revolu- be entitled to draw attention to the fact that tionary element in the constituent chamber even in the home of the revolutionary world defeated that and brought in a constitution -I refer to Rusia-if we can imiagine that consisting of one chamber. That lasted only their Constitution is anything hut a wham, for two years and on the 3rd Fruetidor, which, of course, it is-. 1791, which is the revolutionary name for Hon. J. C. Wtilcock: Then do not refer to July, the new constitution was brought into it if it is only a sham! existence with two chambers, one of which was known as the Conseil of Cinq Cents Hon, N. KiEENAN: Even though it bx, at and the other tho Conseil des Anciens. sham Russia has two Houses. The point is that it became impossible to Mr. Cross: But everyone has a vote for carry on government successfully wvith ;a both chambers. Do not forget that. chamber that was omnipotent and without 31r. Mann: Comrade! restraint, and therefore able and ready at Rion. N. KEENAN: Even in their own times to do things that were hopelessly dan- hom~e country, the Russian Communists took gerous to the nation at large. Then again the precaution to provide the measure of in 1848 there was another French Republic safety, which is the result of having a see- brought into existence and it started on its ond chamber. Throughout the whole his- career with a single chamber, but in 1852, tory of thp world thnt is the story regarding, just four years later, it was obliged to the second chamber. I do not wish create a second chamber. That state of to impose on members' patience, so affairs continued right up to 1940 -when the I shall not continue at much greater Germans entered France and destroyed the length. However, I emnphasise that through- French Government. out the whole of history there is, in respct Now let me recall what happened when the of this question. only one lesson to be learnt. Germans were driven out. Unfortunately the and that is without a second chamber there Communists had a very large representation in is no stdability. WVhen any attempt waxi made the Constituent Chamber, which was charged to govern without a second chamber, in with the responsibility of drawing up the order to obtain stability, the second chamn- new Constitution, 'a representation, far her had to be revived. [AS SEMBLY. I

* Now I1shall say a few words on the other The Minister for Justice: That is correct. i~qsua to be laid before the electors. That Hion. N. KEENAN: I remain of the same is sue was described by the member for Pd- opinion today, but that is not to say that bars, truly and properly, as the matter of I approve of the chaotic position that mnust the franchise. If another place is elected arise with respect to the two Chambers if on exactly the same franchise as this cham- they possess exactly the same mandate, in her-that is to say, on the manhood fran- which case one could not be subservient to chise-I should like to know by what right the other. The position would be impos- could this chamber then say that it had the sible. If adopted it would provide ground sole right to determine what party should for revolt and chaos. govrin, that it was the one House 'that could determine what taxation was to he I propose now to say a few words about the Federal Senate. That impobed. By what right could this cham- House is in no her then claim to be the one House to de- sense a second Chamber. It was never termine annually the revenue and expends- intended to be a second Chamber. It was set ture' for the State? If the Legislative Coun- up as a States House, pure and simple. cil had exactly jthe same authority, what right Hon J. C. Willeock: It was supposed to would this House have to say, "We arc the be. parties interested with this or that matter Hon N. KEENAN: It is not elected on -not the other place ?" the same franchise as the House of Repre- Mr. J. Hegney: The people could recon- sentatives. The fact is that an elector in cile those rights. It is the people who make Tasmania who votes for the Senate has the Parliament. eight times the electoral strength and value of an elector in New South Wales who Hion, N. KEENAN: Perhaps if the mem- votes for the Senate. When it comes to the ber for Mfiddle Swan will listen for a House of liepresentatives, the elector in moment, I will amplify my statement and Tasmania, whih I take for the sake of make my point clear. illustration, has very slightly more electoral Mr. J. llegney: I am sorry. privileges than die corresponding elector lion. N. KEENAN: This House only en- in New South Wales. Thus neither on the Joys its tremendous rights and stupendous question of the franchise nor on the question privileges-po'r what reason? Because mem- of the Constitution is there any comnpari- bers here are closer to the people; we are son. Although I am- in favour of liheralis- miore in touch with the people; 'we are the ing the franchise of the Upper House to a representatives of the people to a much very great extent, if my particular wishes higher degree. were complied with I would never dream M1r. J. Hfegney: Too right I of placing that House in the position of being able to say to the Legislative Assembly lion. N. KEENAN: But that position members, ''We possess the same mandate applies only beaus9e of the restricted fran- as you do. We are going to assert our chise upon which another place is elected. right to govern this State as much as you If we alter that positon we shall have do. We will put iu power the Government thrown away any right this Chamber has that we want, and we will impose the taxa- to otculpy the position it is in today. tion we deem fit.'' In those circumstances1 lion. WV.D). Johnson: That is so. the two Houses would clash at every point lion. N3.KEENAN: I am as certain of when any claim for privilege was put for- that as it is possible to be certain about any- ward. thing I could speak about- Hon. AV. D. Johnson: Then it is a ease Mr. Mann: That is so. of abolition or nothing-! Hon. N. KEENAN: Since I have been Hfon N. KEE'NAN: I hanve spoken at in political life. I have always advocated greater length than I intended. Unfortu- the Jiberalising of the franchise for the nately, some members interjected and T Leg islative Council, and the Mfinister for followed them up. In this matter, the most Jumstie was good enough to refer to one disappointing feature is that the Bill is effort of mine in that direction 40 years not attempting to deal with what is -really the crucial point-the necessity to resolve [22 At'CUST, 1946.] 453 the difficulties between the two Houses. No Mr. McLAB.TY: The Hon. F. E. Gibson, matter what happens or wvhat kind of House MLCwas a member of the first board and ire create, there will be differences between later Mr. TI. G. Davies was appointed. time Houses. This proposal containi nothing Amongst the members have also been some at all that wvill lead to the adjustment of prominent mop from the producing side. So those differences when they arise. That is all parties have realised the importance of the matter to wvhich we should address our the board and tried to secure the most suit- minds and not a matter ot this sort, which able men as members. hans no practical value and is opposed to Milk Bills have been brought before Par- and all the teach- all the lessons of history liament on seven previous occasions. Much immg. of the best of mankind. discussion has taken place on each measure On motion by 31r. Cross, debate ad- and there has also been much discussion of .iourned. the subject during the Address-in-reply and other debates. That the measure should have BILL-DMLK. State-wide application is only right; I have Second Reading. not heard from any quarter any opposition to that proposal. As the Minister told the Debate resumed from the 14th August. House last session, it is just as important MR. EcLARTY (Murray-Wellington) that the people outside the metropolitan [8.51]: I support the second reading as I area should hay0 a good, wholesome milk did the Hill of last session. I am glad that supply as it is for those within the metro- the Minister has brought it down early in politan area. Another advantage of giving the session. Last year it was introduced at the measure State-wide application is that a very late stage and as a result did not get the board wvill be enabled to exercise better through the Legislative Council. Apart from control over milk generally. the opportunity that members have had to I suppose members read the report of the gain a knowledge of this legislation since departmental committee that appeared in last year, there have been numerous news- yesterday's newspaper. I have heard a good paper articles, letters to the papers and deal of comment on it. Those officers con- meetings, as wvell as interviews with various sisted of Dr. A. N. Kingsbury, bacteriolo- parties interested, so that there can be no gist at the Health Department, Mr. A. Me- reason for any member not appreciating the Kenzie-Clark, Chief Inspector of Stock, Mr. importance of this Bill. W. E. Stannard, Chairman of the Metropoli- The Minister proposes to make this legis- tan Milk Board, and Mr. M. Cullity, Super- lation permanent, and I feel sure that Par- intendent of Dairying. I admit that the re- liament will agree. He informed us that port does not make pleasant reading, but I the board had been in existence for about wish to emphasise one paragraph, which 13 years and that, as a result of its work, states that there is no indication that the there had been an improvement in the quality present milk supply is causing epidemics of of disease amongst humans. I think it import- milk supplied to the metropolitan area,' while ant that attention be drawn to that para- the position of the producers had certainly been improved. It is necessary that graph. The public should also understand the board be given permanency in order that that the board is exerting all possible efforts it may still more effectively guard the in- to ensure a supply of clean, wholesome milk. terests of the consuming public, the pro- We do not want it to be thought by the ducer, and in fact all sections of the in- public at large that the matter of the milk dustry. Amongst the members of the board supply is being treated lightly and that have been some very eminent men. When really nothing is being- done. The contrary the board was formed, one of the members is the case. was the late John Curtin, late Prime Minister The report makes reference to several of Australia. Obviously the Government of diseases that affect human beings-tubercu- the day attached considerable importance to losis, contagious abortion which is said to the board when it appointed a gentleman of cause undulant fever in humans, actinomy- the calibre of Mr. Curtin as a member. cosis, and mastitis which wve are told is re- Mr. Abbott: Was not a dairyman fined the sponsible for sore throats and Certain forms other day for selling bad milki? of' enteritis. A close watch is being kept by 454 [ASSEMBLY.) the board over all classes of milk. Samples public that finance wil not be lacking to of milk are frequently taken by the board's cope with cattle diseases, especially T.B., inspectors. Where mastitis is revealed, the although other diseases can be brought dairyman is informed and is instructed what under the Bill should it be so desired. I to do. When milk is found to be infected mention these figures to give members an with the contagious streptococci of mastitis, idea of the amount that would or might be the dairyman is instructed not to include available in order to combat cattle diseases. that milk for human consumption. Provision I have ascertained that in 1935, 4,400,000 gal- is made in the Bill to deal with actinomy- lons of milk were consumed in the metro- cosis. This is a type of tuberculosis that politan area; at present the quantity is affects the jaw of the beast, causing lumpy about 7,000,000 gallons per annum. I am jaw, but often a beast suffering from this wondering whether those who contend that disease is not otherwise affected. milk is spreading- so much disease would contend today that there is twice as much The Bill provides for the establishment of disease. Has there been an increase in a compensation fund. I find that the disease corresponding to the increased con- sum which was contributed to that fund sumption by vendors and dairymen up to the 30th of milk? I very much doubt it. June, 1946, amounted to approximately I come from a dairying district which sup- £C34,887. The vendors' fund stood, at the plies the greater part of the wholemilk to 30th June, 1946, at £20,338 and the dairy- the metropolitan area. There are some very men's fund at £E14,649. Under the Bill, this large schools in the district and I see thle money will go into a compensation fund children frequently. I presume the children which is to be created to provide conmpen- consume more milk than do the children in sation for dairymen whose stock are con- any other part of the State and yet I doubt demned and destroyed on account of disease. whether a healthier lot of children could be The Bill also provides for the contribution found anywhere. Certain diseases which of a maximum amount of a fartlhing per may be caused by milk have been mentioned gallon by both producers and vendors. At by the departmental committee, but those present it is estimated that about 7,000,000 diseases are "~ry rare in humans in the dis- gallons of milk per annum are consumed in trict to wvhich I refer. If we have not got the metropolitan area. Assuming that the those diseases in the actual dairying dis- miaxinmumn amount of one farthing is col- tricts, I fail to see why milk should be the lected on all of this milk, it w~ill yield an cause of disease in the metropolitan area. amount of between £14,000 and £15,000 per It may be said that dairying in the farming annum. The Bill also provides that the areas is carried on under more hygienic and Treasurer shall contribute a like amount. better conditions than it is in the metropoli- Therefore, the total contributions from these tan area. sources will amount to about £30,000 in one Mr. Read: Oh! What a pity! year, so that at the end of 12 months, if we add together all these funds which go Mr. MeLARTY: I suggest to my friend to the compensation fund, we will have an from Victoria Park, who interjected in his amount of £66,000. But this Bill will aip- wrong seat,' that he would have a slight ply to the whole State and consequently the knowledge of dairying conditions in the amount will ho considerably over £65,000. agricultural districts, but he might have a Let us have a look at the compensation side. mudh more intimate knowledge of the con- If we paid the maximum amount of com- ditions in the metropolitan area. Anyhow, pensation laid down in the Bill, namely, £20 I favour protecting the health of the public per head for each animal destroyed,' we as far as possible and do not want to do rould pay with the money we would have anythiing which would deprive the public of in hand at the end of 12 months--again as- that protection. I presume that when a cer- suming that the maximum amount was paid tain sum of money- has been credited to the for compensation-for a total of 3,250 cowsi compensation fund the Minister will not destroyed. A good deal of the money would want to collect the full contributions, if lie go hack into the compensation fund, so dlecides it is necessary to levy the full actually we would have a larger sum thant amount in the early stages. Unquestion- the amount I stated. This should assure the ably, most of the money required will be [22 AUGUST, 1946.] 455 collected in the early stages; but I feel persuaded by the eloquence of the member quite confident that as time goes on the for Perth to make a further alteration in claims for compensation will become less the Committee stage. and less. Under this Bill, the Milk Board can The Bill contains some alterations. When issue licenses under its own authoiity. introducing it, the Minister spoke at Previously, it had to get a certificate great length on the merits and demerits from the local authority. Power is not of pasteurisation. I do not propose to taken from the local authority to carry discuss the Bill from that angle at all. out inspections in regard to health. That I feel it is more a matter for experts and power is still preserved to it. I strongly technical men generally; but I believe that advocated this last session. I pointed out unless we improve the milk supply, and do to the Minister that these dairying districts it rapidly, thus creating confidence in the extend over a wide area. The secretary of public, it will be exceedingly hard for any a road board is usually the health inspector. Government to stand lip against the demand He is a very busy man and it is not easy for pasteurisation. I also believe that with for him to make inspections; and as a result, the provisions contained in this Bill we will the producer concerned, who is waiting for reach the happy stage of having a better his license, and also the Milk Board, are milk supply sooner than a great many put to considerable inconvenience. I cer- people expect. tainly think this provision is a very wise one. As I said, there are some alterations in the Bill. The Minister did not refer to some of The Minister for Agriculture: I yielded them. Last session's Bill included re- to your very persuasive manner. ference to milk used for manufacturing pur- Mr. McLARTY: I hope the Minister will poses. This Bill still includes such milk, yield to a few more of my suggestions. 1 but exemption can be obtained from the notice something else that is newv. The Com- Milk Board. I notice there is a safeguard missioner of Health can instruct the board with reference to the illicit use of ivholcmilk. to do certain things. Last session I said I Manufacturers have to apply to the board did not think it was in our best interests to for a certificate of exemption from the Act have three different controls-the Milk and the board can issue a certificate an(1 Board, the Agricultural Department and the impose conditions under which it is issued. Health Department. I hope members will If a manufacturer fails to comply with or bear in mind that most of the inspectors observe any of the conditions, the certificate employed by the Milk Board have health may be revoked by the board, and this is in certificates. Those, who have not, have had the board's absolute .discretion. Returns considerable experience with regard to the have to be supplied and the board has the wholemilk industry, and their activities are right to inspect premises and books. That very closely watched by the Milk Board. is certainly a safeguard as it means that We have practical men on that board. We this milk will have to be used for manufac- have consumers' representatives, who are turing purposes only, and I do not think alive to the serious complaints regarding it is likely to get on to the wholemnilk market. health. When we come to the Committee The Bill also provides that a person who stage, I propose to offer a certain amend- is using the milk as wholemilk and for manu- mnent regarding this provision which gives facturing purposes as well. is not exempt the Commissioner of Health powver to in- from the Act, and that is a wise provision. struct. He can request, but I do not think Another new provision deals with storage of there is any necessity to give him power to milk. This will assist the board. Under it, instruct. It is possible that a health inspec- milk can be stored only in licensed premises. tor may go to a dairy and find something [ think it is necessary that the board should wrong just on that particular day. The know where all milk is stored in Perth. man, to all intents and purposes, may be a It is in the interests of good health for really good producer, but this one action the board to know this. Under the present would condemn him, and the board would Act, milk can be stored anywhere. I am have no say in the matter at all. The Com- glad the Minister has made an alteration in missioner of Health would say, "You are the Bill, and I hope he is not going to be not to take his milk; wipe him out." [ASSEMBLY.]

The Minister for Justice: He has power He does not want to be bothered separating under the Health Act that supersedes' this. it, but wants to get rid of it, so he is prepared to let it go in at the cheaper rate. Mr. MCLARTY: He has very wide pow- That tends to undercut the price. ers under the Health Act; hut I want, if possible, to get the Minister to agree to let Hon. W. D.- Johnson: This Bill will not the board deal with these people and not stop that, will it Y have them instructed by the Commissioner Mr. MeLARTY:- I think that if the MIinis- of Health. I do not think there is any need ter -would agree to ray suggestion to delete for that to be done; and I think 'the Minis- from the Bill reference to surplus milk, it ter himself has sufficient confidence in the would go a long way towards doing so. board to know that it would carry out the When we conic to the Committee stage, I health requirements and would be very alert will give further reasons why the definition to the need for milk being produced under of surplus milk should be deleted from this the most hygienic conditions. Surplus milk Bill. Furthermore, 1 wvill put something in has always been widely discussed ever since its place. I dto not know whether you, M1r. the board came into being. There have been Speaker, will alilow ine to refer to it now. all sorts of ways of getting rid of this sur- pins milk. I can remember that at one M1r. SPEHAKER: Yes, so long as the hion. time a tot of milk used to be bought which member does not mention the clause. was called ship's milk. It was milk supplied Mr. MeLARTY: I will not mention to ships in Fremiantle Harbour. It was clauses. I propose to put in these words- bought at a cheaper rate than milk sent to Any milk supplied over and above the maxi- the metropolitan area. We amended the mum. daily quantity shall be deemed accommo- Act in that connection. Then there was the dation milk and paid for as such. Kalgoorlie milk. Fortunately, the board will If tha Minister will accept that it will do now be able to control that under the State- away wvith the need to provide for surplus wide application of the proposed measure. milk in the Act. There are oneo or two other Cheap milk was bought and sent to Kalgoor- amndmeats that I propose to move. One lie. refers to the method by which the election Mr. Doney: When you say cheap milk, Of the producers' representatives shall he do you refer to its low qualityT made. I have an amendment on the notice papeor dealing with that point. When the Air. MeLAR TV: No; it was milk sold at Minister introduced the Bill last season I a lower price than that fixed by the board. atsked him how he would define the boun- Mr. Abbott: At prices better than were daries for the election of the producers' rc- ,obtained for butter-fat. presentatives. This Bill, as did the previous one, provides that there shall be two zones. -Mr. McLAIITY: The hion. member wants I do not Chink we want two zones. I admit to lead me off the track, and to induce me that when the first measure was introduced to discuss the respective merits of the butter- into Parliament I -was mainly responsible for fat producer and the milk producer. I notice the creation of two zones, because at that there is an amendment on the subject, so we time there were two different classes. Them- will leave the discussion on that to the Comi- were the producers in the metropolitan area mitteec stage. I want to ask the Minister and those outside. But times have changed a question. I do not expect him to answer and the greater number of the metropolitan it now. prolIueprs have gone out into the agrricul- Mr. SPEAKER: No, not now! tural areas. I think the fliures at present show that there are 9O) producers in the Mr. MeLARTY: No, sir. I want to ask metropolitan area-the No. 1 area-and 235 him: Why is there need for this surplus outside. milk? The Act is to he given State-wide application, aind I fail to see why any pro- lon. W. D. Johnson : That is 99J too vision Phould be made for surplus mnilk. I mna jir. know that some producers are offenders in IL%MeLARTY: When this Bill was first this direction. A producer may have a quota introdlp~d into Parliament there was. I of 30 gallons. A truck comes to pick up think, a salight majority in the metropolitan his milk and he finds that he has 35 gallons. nreo. I do not know how the Minister can [22 AuGUST, 1946.145 457 define these two zones. The Bill has, State- fever was caused by the troops drinking wide application, and I suggest to him that goats' milk. Orders were immediately issued ho will make things easier for himself if huc that no goats' milk was to be drunk by the accepts my amenfdmcnt and permits the troops, The result was that Malta fever whole of the producers to elect the two re- ceased. We cannot adopt a similar method presentatives for the whole area with the milk supply of this State, but we TMr. Needham: A. State-wide election? should tackle it by other means, and the Mr. MeLARTY: 'Yes. The only other Bill is a serious attempt to deal with the amendment I have is to provide that the problems associated with milk. We should producers' representatives shall be pro- aim, first of all, at getting clean milk from ducers. That is necessary. It is essential the cow and then getting the milk from the that we should have this milk board. There cow to the consumer in a satisfactory condi- will be chaos in the whole of the milk in- tion. dustry if we do not have a board, and I I am not going through the Bill as conclude my speech as I commenced by say- did the member for Murray-Wellington, but ig that this board has undoubtedly been in I would like to give the House a couple of the interests of all sections of the community. my personal experiences. 'One milking cow If we are to have a pure milk supply we that I had I finally decided to butcher. The must have the board. It is necessary too cow was in poor condition and I put her that a veterinary officer he employed by the on to good feed and she rapidly responded. hoard. We will not wipe out the disease When in first-class condition I took her into without one. I notice in the report of the the slaughterhouse and, as the butcher put Reorganisation Commission fojir Milk-this is his knife into her, he said, "My word this a British report issued under the authority is a lovely bit of beef." I left the slaughter- of the Minister for Agriculture and Fish- house then and when I got home I found eries-the need for a veterinary officer to waiting for me a telephone message which carry out inspections uf stock is stressed. If said that the cow was one mass of T.B. and such inspections are carried out they wiUl have the whole carcase was condemned. A few a preat effect upon reducing disease. The years later I had another cow that became report deals with a whole-time veterinary very poor, and I destroyed it. I discussed service and states- the symptoms with our veterinary officer, On the subject of cost, we have been in. and he thought it was T.B. formed that, on an average, one wholetirne offl- cer may be expected to examine 10,000 cows I had another of my cows-a fine three times iii 12 months. Guernsey-tested by a Government veter- That should indicate just what one veterin- h~iary officer, and she responded to the ary officer could do if he were attached to tuberculin test. I had the beast slaught- the Milk Board. I hope that one will be ered and the carcase was sold as beef. employed by the board at the earliest oppor- I point out that because a cow responds tunity. I support the second reading. to the tuberculin test it does not mean that she is unfit for consumption, although it may mean that the milk, to, a MR. HILL (Albany) [9.261: 1 support certain extent, is anngerous. The veterin- the second reading for two reasons. One is ary officer told me on one occasion that a that I have had definite instructions from cow that responded to the test was slaught- a municipality which I represent strongly ered, and when they made a careful exam- to support the Bill. The Albany Municipal- ination of the carcase they could find no ity is not only anxious to see the Bill passed trace of T.B. Finally the veterinary officer but to see it applied to its district. I also decided to examine a gland in a rather out- support it because I feel it is my duty to of-the-way spot. That gland was investi- do so. It is freely recognised that milk is gated and was found to have the T.B. which a good medium for carrying and spreading caused the response to the test. disease. Some years ago troops and sailors By testing the cows throughout the State I in the Mediterranean were seriously handi- am sure we would do good work and go a long capped and suffered considerable illness way towards stamping out T.B. in our dairy through Malta fever. It was found that this herds, which would he of great benefit to 458 458ASSEMBLY.]

Western Australia. I am reminded of an have thought, from its condition, that it was epidemic of typhoid fever in Albany many the dustman's waggon. I heard the member years ago, when many young people were for Murray-Wellington say that some board affected. The authorities set to work to is exercising control over the distribution trace the source of the infection. There had of milk, and I think that that board should been a church bazaar, at which iceeream was look at some of the vehicles in which milk sold, and it was eventually discovered that is being distributed. water from a tank attached to the church I can well remember the bringing for- building had caused the epidemic. Under ward in this House about 12 years ago this legislation it will be necessary to have of a report on the state of some herds a proper staff of veterinary officers to do -in the hands of Government agents the testing. in the South-West-that were badly infected Mr. Seward: Where are you going to get with contag-ious abortion. We still have that them $ disease in our herds and we saw the report in the papers only recently. I am firmly con- Mr. HILL: That is no argument against vinced that nothing will alter this state of the passing of this Bill. I trust the Bill affairs until wvc have compuilsion to force will pass this House because it gives the somebody to take action. I have not a copy Government and the board a definite means of the civil list of this State by me but I of providing pure milk for our consumers. hMve the South Australian civil list here. When, one turns to the section dealing with agriculture andI dairying one sees, among the MR. SE~WARD (Pingelly) [9.32]: It is list of officers, a Director of Agriculture at not my intention to take lip much time on £E1,272, a Chief Agricultural Adviser at £822, this; Bill, but I am disappointed to learn a Chief Dairy Instructor at £722, a senior that the Government dlops not intend to make dairy adviser at £522 and four at £472 per paste uris;atiori compulsory. During his speech annum, and another assistant dairy adviser I asked the 'Minister if hie could estimate at £372. There arc two pages here of the what would he the cost of fitting tip a pas- officers of the Department of Agriculture. teurisation plant, and he said it would be I would like to see our civil list, and com- very costly. lie also said that it would take pare the two. It is no use our saying we not less than two years. We have heard in cannot get veterinary officers, because no- recent year-s-particullarly from the other thing is done in this State to encourage them. side of the liouse, though I do not subscribe As long as I have been in this House I to it-that becauise we can find money for wai- there should be no reason why we can- have advocated training in veterinary work not get money for peace. When the health at Narrogin and Muresk, so that veterinary officers could conduct their investigations be- of the community is at stake there is no rea- fore the classes. If that were done some son why we should consider expense. The of fact that it would take two years to matta! the students would be encouraged to take up veterinary science. We have advertised in the plant does not carry any weight. some of the Eastern States for veterinary I can imagine the kind of reception one surgeons at salaries that Jumpers would not would have received in wartime if one had accept, As long as that kind of thing goes said that we could not get some vital -weapon on we will accomplish nothing. The only because it would take two years. I think the thing that will effect an improvement in our health of the community is more important milk supply will be the advocacy of some than the question of either cost or time. If system of pasteurisation that will improve pasteurisation is necessary to ensure the the quality of the milk. In his statement the health of the community, neither expense Minister said that pasteurisation would kill nor time should stand in its way. I am not all the gperms, both beneficial and otherwise. in a position to discuss the matter from a At all events it will kill them, but at present technical point of viewv, but the other morn- we get both the beneficial germs and those ing when walking along St. George's-terrace that are injurious. The 'Minister said that I saw a man carrying some bottles of milk. our systeni of pasteutrisation is not effective I saw a motor lorry, but if he had not come or efficient, and I agree with him. Why from it with the bottles of milk I would tolerate a system that is not efficient and [22 Auoustr, 1946.] 4,4.513 imagine that we are getting pure milk! If chairman of the board shall not be a civil the system is not efficient it is not pasteuri- servant. We can recall most unfortunate sation. experiences with regard to boards in the Eastern States-I do not refer to our ex- The health of the community is of perience in Western Australia-where civil more consequence to us than the mere con- breen connected with them. sideration of the cost that this service might servants, have entail. I was pleased, hut amused, at the I asert that civil servants ought to have illustration the Minister gave about Whyalla. their time fully occupied by the functions respective ollices, otherwise those I was amused because one is constantly read- of their positions cannot he regarded as of sufficient ing complaints and abuse from many people in the Eastern States about this terrible importance. thing the 13.11.., but whenever we wish to -Mr. Mebarty: In this instance it is a quote efficiency we fly to the BJL.P. The full-time job. mere fact that that company has not adopted pasteurisation at Whyalla cannot he taken Mr. SEWARD: I know, bitt I do not neccssary in larger want a civil servant who already has one as proof that it is not fill he communities. I regard Whyalla more as a position to to appointed as chairman family concern, as it were, because the whole of the hoard. I think the man selected for town belongs to the B.H.P. and it is ob- that position should be an outsider, one with viously in the best interests of that company practical experience. to preserve its employees in the best possible Mr, MeLarty: The present occupant of state of health. the chairmanship gives the whole of his Mr. Abbott: Have they not a high stand- time to the work. ard, with a wind tunnel in which all the Mr. SEWARD: I do not say that he does flies are blown away? not, but my point is that I do not want the chairman to he a civil servant. In saying Mr. SEWARD: If I am permitted to go that, I do not desire to reflect in any way on I will inform the hon. member that the upon our civil servants. We have many 13.11P., having a high regard for tile health highly qualified and skilled officers in the of its employees, has taken the milk supply Civil Service, hut in this instance the posi- into its own hands and has enforced proper tion of chairman calls for the appointment and are free conditions. Its herds are tested of a practical man from outside who would from T.B., the whole thing being rigidly give his full time to the work. controlled. One does not find any such system in connection with our milk supply. Mr. MeLarty: The present chairman does Certainly I have not noticed any such in- that. If ,dication, that were not so, we would Mr. SEWVARD: I am not talking about re- not have our cows, on being tested, the present board but about the hoard that acting to the T.B. test as we have recently is to bla set uip. I trust that, particularly experienced. We- cannot say that because in viewv of the report that was published in the 1.1.P. has not adopted the pasteurisa- yesterday's issue of "The WYest Austra- tion method at Whyalla, it is not necessary lian'' and moreover because of the fact to adopt the system elsewhere. As I men- that the unsatisfactory position regarding tioned previously, that company is in- our cattle has continued over the past 12 terested in safeguarding the health of its or 13 years or even longer-in this respect employees by ensuring a supply of clean. we do not seem to have made any progress wholesome milk; we cannot possibly say at all, but rather to have retrogresse&--we that we get a supply of that description should take the matter in hand and pay here. I hope that before the Bill is finally our veterinary surgeons and officers of the passed pasteurisation will he made com- Agricultural Department munch higher pulsory. salaries. At present they are not receiving The only other matter I wish to refer remuneration anything- like that which they to concerns the composition of the board. should reeive. If I were to compare the When we are dealing with the Bill in Coin- salaries paid here with those operating in niittee I may move an amendment to the South Aust'nlia and elsewhere, I could effect that the man to he appointed as easily prove that point. [ASSEMBLY.]

We should increase the number of Mir. Needham: Which is the better, a veterinary surgeons available here and I monopoly in connection with milk or a do not say that we should necessarily monopoly as regards alcohol? import them. Rather should we en- Mr. ABBOTT: I do not think either is courage the rising generation to engage right, but the former is probably the more in veterinary science and draw our sup- evil, because I suggest that no-one should ply from that source. Until something have an advantage merely because he sells like that is done I do not think we will wholemilk. I think the community is en- register any marked improvement in our titled to receive wholemilk at the best pos- dairy herds or in our stock generally. sible price. That, however, is the respon- Certainly no improvement has been made sibility of the Government and particularly during the past 12 or 13 years, In my of the Minister concerned. It is for them opinion the only thing to do is to adopt to see that no-one is deriving an undue ad- posteurisation, at any rate until we have vantage because of )iis participation in this improved the health of our herds so as to vocation. I would like to see the dairying ensure that the best possible milk supply industry throughout the whole State placed is provided for nor people. I do not know on the basis of equal competition, In other sufficient about the matter to say definitely words, the producer of cheese or of butter- whether pasteurisation is completely effec- fat or of wholemilk should be on the one tive. As the Minister pointed out the basis. I understand that the producer of other night, doctors look upon it from one cheese has to provide milk of a Quality that point of view while others regard it from gives a return of something like four per another angle. The fact remains that much cent. butter-fat, and when he delivers his of' the milk wre obtain at present is far supplies he is paid on the baisi of the butter- from the standard of quality it should at- fat content of his milk. On the other hand, tain. To overcome that, the best way is the producer of wholemilk is permitted to to adopt pasteurisation, which I hope will deliver his commodity with a return of be arced to before the Bill is passed by about three per cent, and he is not paid on Parliament. the butter-fat content, but at the rate of Mr. ABBOTT: I move- so muck per gallon. The man who delivers That the debate be adjourned. milk from a cow with a rich nourishing Motion put and negatived. supply of a five per cent, butter-fat content ge ts exactly the same price for his comn- mnodity as the man who sells milk with a three per cent. butter-fat content. MR. ABBOTT fNorth Perth) [9.45]: The Bill, as I uinderstand it, has two objec- Mr. Fox: One producer may water his tives. Probably the principal one is to pro- mil1k down. vide a good supply of germ-free milk to Mr. ABIBOTT: That may be done. I would the community. The second objective is toi like the producer of wholemilk to be paid enable the producers of milk to receive a like the producer of milk for cheese or hut- reasonable remuneration for the work enter-on the basis of the butter-fat content, tailed. As members know, I have, on every irrespective of the quantity he supplies. occasion possible, objected to the creation That would encourage the producers to proof monopolies. In this instance it is well duce first-class milk instead of milk that known that the producers of wholemilk have comes just within the requirements of the been given a monopoly of the business and Act. that monopoly is represented in value by The second point I wish to mention is that all very well, per- about £300,000. it is of pasteurisation. Naturally, we have to be haps, for the vendors of alcohol or other guided by our experts. They arc the people such commodities to be in that privileged who have spetially studied the problem. position, but when we find that producers Although we might feel sometimes that they of milk -have to hold a license and are ob- arc wrong or have reached a wrong con- liged to pay for their monopoly at the rate clusion, we must accept their opinion as of £10 or more per gallon-and so are the being more likely to be correct than that vendors-it is not reasonable. of people who merely feel that a thing is [27 A uGusT, 1046.] 461 right or wrong. It struck me as peculiar disease. This policy has been adopted by that the Minister should say that in spite other communities. Either the milk must of the opinion of medical men on pasteuri- be delivered fresh in a condition free from sation, they might be wrong. He said that, T.B.-that is, bottled under hygienie condi- by and large, the medical profession believe dions--or it must be delivered after being in pasteurisation, and we must acknow- pasteurised. I should think that would be [edlge that scientific opinion, by and large, the proper approach to the problem; it ap- is right. As I said before, we must be peals to me as being the proper view for the guided by the experts. Therefore I consider responsible authorities to take. that we should follow their advice unles I would have liked to see provision made we can conceive of some very good reason in the Hill that, after a given date-I why we should do otherwise. Pasteurisation do not care whether two or three years- has been adopted by many communities only pasteurised milk might be supplied or throughout the world, and I should like to fresh milk from herds tested and proved to see it adopted here. be free from the diseases that have been If -we study the disadvantages of using mentioned. I hope the Minister will see fit tion-pasteurised milk, we must realise that to reconsider some of the provisions of the the milk, when taken from the cow, may not measure and at least set a date-line from be infected with tuberculosis ot some other which the consuming public may expect to disease, but it may very likely become in- get fresh milk that is absolutely free from fected contamination and infection at the source, after being taken from the cow. Com- paratively few people are infected with or pasteurised milk wvhicb, though it may bovine tuberculosis, but many are infected not contain all the attributes of wholemilk, by diseases contracted after the milk has w-ill at least be free from all disease. been taken from the cow. The purest form On motion by Hon. Wv. D. Johnson, debate of milk seems to be that which is pasteur- adjourned. ised find delivered in containers that ensure that it does not become contaminated after House adjourned at 10 P.M. it has left the cow. There may be some support for the argument of the Minister that valuable constituents of milk are destroyed by pasteurisation, but, so far as I have been able to ascertain, these constituents may be supplied from fruit, vegetables and other sources that are not subject to the same disadvantages as is milk. The proposal is to pay some £30,000 a year for the destruction of cows that react to the T.B. test, but are we approaching this problem from the most important as- peet, namely, that of giving the consumer the purest possible milk? I agree that nobody would knowingly drink milk in- Tuesday, 27th August, 1946. fected by bovine T.B. When we read the statistics relating to those who have contracted the disease, we find that they form Questions. Seerage. claremont, - to houses con- only a small percentage as compared with nected! and sanitary depo1t...... 462 Electoral rols, as to repriting ...... 462 those who might possibly have contracted B111: Marketing of Barley (No. 1), Order dIscharged 462 state Transport Co-ordnation Act Amiendmeat, some disease from milk that has become con- con)...... 462 taminated after leaving the cow. Would it FeedigrStuffs Act Amendment (No. 2), 2a., Coni. Repot - 465 not be better to subsidise the pasteurisation Elecora (War T60e ACt Anrn&en t. . 465 of milk and so ensure a germ-free supply to b=l, 2n.. Corn...... 406 consumers? I suggest that the Minister might set a time from which pasteurised milk must he delivered or milk that has been The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4.30 eertified as being free from T.B. or other p.m., and read prayers.