Da´Il E´Ireann

Vol. 634 Wednesday, No. 5 28 March 2007 DIÓSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DA´ IL E´ IREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Wednesday, 28 March 2007. Leaders’ Questions ………………………………1177 Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach …………………………………1194 Requests to move Adjournment of Daíl under Standing Order 31 ………………1208 Order of Business ………………………………1209 Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2007: Report and Final Stages …………………1217 European Communities Bill 2006 [Seanad]: Report Stage …………………1222 Estimates for Public Services 2007: Messages from Select Committees ……………1230 Ceisteanna—Questions (resumed) Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism Priority Questions ……………………………1230 Other Questions ……………………………1245 Adjournment Debate Matters ……………………………1257 European Communities Bill 2007 [Seanad]: Report Stage (resumed) and Final Stage … … … 1258 Medical Practitioners Bill 2007: Report and Final Stages …………………1275 Estimates for Public Services 2007: Messages from Select Committees ……………1310 Private Members’ Business Appointments to Public Bodies Bill 2007: Second Stage (resumed) ……………1310 Adjournment Debate Health Services ………………………………1339 Water Pollution ………………………………1341 RoadNetwork………………………………1345 Questions: Written Answers ……………………………1349 1177 1178 DA´ IL E´ IREANN body that deals with legal fees, to approach the issue of costs in a measured and sensitive way. ———— The agency informed Ms O’Keeffe’s solicitor at that time and on the record, that while the same De´ Ceádaoin, 28 Ma´rta 2007. arrangements would have to be made in respect Wednesday, 28 March 2007. of costs, there was no question whatsoever of her losing her house, which was the issue. Her solici- ———— tor informed the agency that she intended to appeal the case to the Supreme Court and it was Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas not possible to make a deal with her on the pre- ar 10.30 a.m. vious costs. In any event, the High Court placed a stay on the costs order pending the determi- ———— nation of the Supreme Court appeal. I have stated on many occasions that I sym- Paidir. pathise greatly with those who were subjected to Prayer abuse in our schools and in places in which they should have felt safe and protected. Child abuse, ———— regardless of where it occurs, is devastating and victims always carry a great deal of emotional Leaders’ Questions. pain. There is no doubt that a huge wrong was Mr. Kenny: I wish to ask the Taoiseach about done to young children in our schools in the past. a matter that has been raised by Deputy Enright While I feel deeply sorry for the victims, the and others on a number of occasions, which was courts have found that the State was not liable in the subject of a “Prime Time” programme last this regard. A number of cases have been heard week. I refer to the attitude of the Government in the courts. towards accepting responsibility for what happened to a number of children in day primary Mr. P. McGrath: A little sympathy does not go schools throughout the country. The Taoiseach very far. will be aware of Louise O’Keeffe, who lost her case — in respect of which a sum of \500,000 in The Taoiseach: Our education system has long costs is pending — in the High Court. The view been structured on the basis that schools are is that this is a public interest case and that the sponsored by religious and other patrons and run State should not pursue Ms O’Keeffe for costs. by local management on their behalf. Since the Will the Taoiseach clarify the position in this enactment of the relevant legislation, legal regard? responsibility in this regard is vested in boards of The Government wrote a letter advising vic- management. The courts found in four separate tims that the Department of Education and cases that the Department of Education and Science has no responsibility in this matter and Science was not liable for abuse that occurred in that they should pursue boards of management. schools. I accept that the State is not legally Under the Constitution, the State has a duty to responsible for what happened. That does not provide for people’s education. In addition, make matters any less awful for the people con- teachers are paid out of the public purse and the cerned, but the legal issue involved here is that Department of Education and Science sets down the Department is not responsible. the curriculum, pays capitation grants and provides buildings. Do the Taoiseach and the Ms O’Sullivan: The Taoiseach is washing his Government agree with the assertion by the hands of it. Minister for Education and Science and her Department that they will not accept responsi- Mr. Kenny: Do I take it the Government, bility for what happens to children in primary which has been led by the Taoiseach for the past schools throughout the country? Do the ten years, does not accept responsibility for sex- Taoiseach and the Government agree with the ual abuse of children in day schools throughout contents of the letter that was sent? If they do, the country? Do I understand that evidence pro- they are abdicating responsibility completely. If duced last week of a letter submitted to the they do not, are they prepared to have it with- Department of Education and Science, which drawn and have some other system devised under clearly indicated abuse by a teacher, was not dealt which justice would be done and responsibility with and that no action was taken? I will ask the accepted? Taoiseach again whether he agrees with the letter that was sent to victims advising them that the The Taoiseach: As the Deputy is aware, I Government has no responsibility in respect of cannot comment on the details of the O’Keeffe this matter and that they should sue boards of case, which has been appealed to the Supreme management. Such boards are comprised of Court. On the costs relating to the previous case, approximately 20,000 volunteers and lay people. I made it clear last March that the Government Why would anybody want to serve on a board of had asked the State Claims Agency, the statutory management if he or she would be likely to be 1179 Leaders’ 28 March 2007. Questions 1180 [Mr. Kenny.] Mr. Kenny: I agree. What will the Taoiseach sued in circumstances of this sort? Is it not a fact do about it? that, under the Constitution, the Government must provide for people’s education and that, for An Ceann Comhairle: The Taoiseach without example, welfare officers, who have a role to play interruption, please. in ensuring children attend school, are part of the State machinery? Mr. Kenny: What will he do about it? Does he agree the letter sent out is in accord- ance with the Government views? How can he An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Kenny, please, stand here, as head of Government, and state that you had your opportunity. all responsibility is abdicated for children who were abused in day schools throughout the land? Mr. McCormack: It is like signing a blank He apologised, in respect of the institutions cheque. arising from the Residential Institutions Redress Board, to all those victims who were abused in The Taoiseach: I said I sympathise greatly with institutions. Does he now apologise to all of those those who have been subjected to abuse. victims who were abused in day schools? Let me hear it again from the Taoiseach, as head of Mr. Allen: Weasel words. Government, that Fianna Faíl and the Progress- The Taoiseach: Deputy Kenny is correct. I ive Democrats will not accept any responsibility apologised to those who were in institutions for the sexual abuse of children in day schools, of because in the institutions the State had a full which the Department of Education and Science obligation. I have never stopped taking criticism was notified officially and took no action. If that from the Opposition in this House for that is the case, we have come to a new low where he matter, but that is neither here nor there. will not even accept any moral responsibility for Boards of management are not sued as individ- an outrage that happened in so many cases uals but as boards of management, and they have throughout the land. indemnity insurance on that issue, which has been made quite clear. While members of boards have The Taoiseach: There are a number of points. a responsibility to ensure procedures are in place The letter sent is based on legal advice of the to keep their pupils safe and to investigate any legal position. allegations of abuse, they are not personally liable for claims against the school. Mr. Kenny: It is on behalf of the Government. Boards of management are a corporate entity and can be sued. However, the Education Act The Taoiseach: It is the legal position, that is provides that the individual members who serve the point. and who do a good job on boards, have protec- tion. In addition, boards are required to have Mr. Kenny: It is on behalf of his Government. insurance policies to cover this. That is the legal position. The Taoiseach: Deputy Kenny asked me to It is important that there is local responsibility clarify the position. That is the legal position. and vigilance, but of course this does not mean volunteer members of boards being exposed to Mr. McCormack: That makes it worse. claims, which is the concern that individuals would have. Mr. Kenny: Hide behind it. Mr. Allen: Is it all about money? The Taoiseach: One does not hide behind the law. The Taoiseach: The Minister does not believe this issue will stop people from volunteering to Ms Lynch: That is the cover.

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