County Business

VIRGINIA:

At a regular meeting of the King George County Board of Supervisors, held on Monday, the 1st day of September, 2020 at 6:30 p.m. in the Auditorium of King George High School at 10100 Foxes Way, King George, Virginia:

PRESENT: Cathy Binder, Chairman Jeff Bueche, Member Annie Cupka, Vice-Chairman Richard Granger, Member Jeff Stonehill, Member Neiman C. Young, County Administrator Matt Britton, County Attorney

0:00:00 Cathy Binder: Do we have any amendments to the agenda, Dr. Young?

0:00:03 Neiman Young: Yes, Madam Chair, on the agenda, it states that the board will adjourn until September 9th, actually the board will be adjourned until September 2nd for the CARES Act work session, so, that is a typo on the agenda.

0:00:22 Richard Granger: September 3rd, yes.

0:00:23 Neiman Young: September 3rd.

0:00:25 Ann Cupka: That's Thursday, right? Yes, Thursday.

0:00:27 Neiman Young: It says September 3rd. That's correct. September 3rd.

0:00:29 Cathy Binder: Do we have a motion to amend the agenda to correct that?

0:00:32 Richard Granger: Move to amend agenda to say the adjourn date... Adjourn until date to be September 3rd at 6:30 in the boardroom.

0:00:45 Neiman Young: Roger.

0:00:46 Mr. Granger: Yes.

0:00:46 Cathy Binder: Any second?

0:00:47 Mr. Stonehill: Second. 0:00:51 Cathy Binder: Any discussion? All those in favor say aye.

0:00:53 All: Aye.

0:00:53 Cathy Binder: Any nays? Chair votes aye, motion carries. Public comment. Comment will be... Comments will be limited to three minutes per person in order to afford everyone an opportunity to speak. If comments relate to a specific public hearing item, we ask that you offer those comments at the time of the public hearing. Is there anyone in the audience who would like to come to the podium and give a public comment?

0:01:19 Mike Ryan: My name is Mark Ryan. I work at [0:01:20] ____. Oh, you can't hear me? Okay, that's better. I was wondering why you're looking at me. Now, I've tried all avenues to acquire internet service and phone services at my new home. Its only been in there three years. I couldn't get Verizon to come out and put a landline in. That's first off. I tried to get cable. My neighbors to the left of me and the right of me have cable. I can't get it. They want $4800 to run it to my house. I tried to get good cell reception. In order to do that, I'd have to put a tower on my front yard that'll be over 100 feet at a cost of over $5000 to me. This is the 21st century. We need to bring King George into it. I currently have satellite internet. I have a few superlatives that I could say about it, however, it's inefficient and costly.

You all have computers in front of you, if you pull up a news clip, a 30-second news clip, it buffers with this satellite. They tell you, you have 20... 25 mega download speed... Well, yeah, that is true, except they don't explain to you about the lag time that causes the buffering. My wife and many of her co-workers are frustrated with the slow speeds and inability to transfer files efficiently. She's now working from home. She uses over 30 megs within three to four days just because of the type of work she does. And then, we add students that are in this county that don't have internet service. What are they supposed to do? I understand you're giving out... Well, not you, but I understand they've been given hotspots, but still, that slows down services to everybody in the county. The internet is no longer a luxury. It's a necessity. It's more of a utility, work, school, banking, correspondence, shopping, entertainment, and much more that we do on the internet.

I could go on, but I'm limited in time. I'd like to know what the county is planning on doing to resolve some of these shortcomings. At the rate things are moving, we'll have a colony on Mars before we have reliable internet service here in the county. Thank you for your time and I'd like to find where I could find out what you're doing to follow up on some of this. Thank you.

0:04:32 Cathy Binder: Thank you. Does anybody else like to speak? Is there anybody online, Mr. Dines?

0:04:43 Chris Dines: No, Madam Chair.

0:04:44 Cathy Binder: Thank you. Do we have any written correspondence to members of the board, Ms. Cupka?

0:04:49 Ann Cupka: Yes. Excuse me, Madam Chair. Yes, I do, I as well as a few others of us on the board are... I am in receipt of an email from Mr. Adam Simonof dated August 26, 2020, which he requested be entered into the record of tonight's meeting. The email is regarding the Wayside Park VDOT land mitigation and I have provided that email to the clerk of the Board of Supervisors. Thank you.

0:05:18 Cathy Binder: Thank you, Ms. Cupka. Is there any other correspondence? All right, with that, we'll move to reports from members of the board. Mr. Stonehill.

0:05:30 Mr. Stonehill: Thank you. Mr. Ryan, thank you for coming out. I know this is a issue for a lot of people here in King George. That is my district down there. If you could go on the county website and shoot me an email with your contact information, I will follow-up with you and give you some more ideas and things that are in the works for internet, but it's a big issue, we know that. So if you would just reach out to me and I'll keep you up-to-date the best I can.

0:06:03 Mark Ryan: I can get your information from you before I leave.

0:06:06 Mr. Stonehill: Okay, great, thank you. Let's see. August 24th, I attended a VACo Agriculture Steering Committee virtually and listened in to see how they were... Other counties and everything were dealing with all the COVID and what was going on at Richmond having to do with the agriculture. The 25th, I and Dr. Young and Ms. Binder attended the Fredericksburg Chamber of Commerce for First Responders breakfast, which is held up at the Expo Center. A good time was had. A lot of good things there, great people. And I just wanted to send out my congratulations once again to our very own King George Sheriffs Office with Detective Massey, Detective Sergeant Massey, Detective Woodring and Detective Patterson who received the Excellence in Criminal Investigation Award for their work on a past case here in King George. And also, King George Fire Rescue received a Business and Innovation Award for some of their cutting edge technology that they've been working with and I did not know, and which we all now know that they have some mobile ultrasound units that are on each shift for helping with patients.

The 26th, I attended a joint meeting with the school board with the rest of my colleagues here, where we spoke about the CARES Act spending. And then, on the 27th, Mrs. Cupka, Dr. Young and I met with Captain Copeland, who is the new CEO of a base down in Dahlgren and spoke to him, of course, about traffic and other King George Navy/related issues and trying to keep in good spirits with those guys to continue working with them. That's all I have right now.

0:08:13 Cathy Binder: Thank you, Mr. Stonehill. Ms. Cupka.

0:08:16 Ann Cupka: Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Ryan, I too am your supervisor. I am the at- large supervisor. So please, when you send the email to Mr. Stonehill, please copy me on it as well. I feel your pain. I stayed home from my day job for an extra couple of hours on Friday morning to call the King George County School's help desk because we were provided with a MiFi box, and I so appreciate their assistance, but it turned out the MiFi box we were provided with, my family was provided with, to allow my two high school students to connect to learn virtually had not been activated by Verizon Wireless. So, they found a solution for me as far as my school students go, but you're absolutely right. We now have an overload of what available network we have with students now tele-learning, teachers tele-teaching, if they've been allowed to do that and lots of folks teleworking as well. So I, too, share your concerns. I will mention a few things that this board has been doing recently to try to address the issue during the rest of my report. So, thank you very much for coming out.

On Wednesday, August 19th, I participated with my colleagues in a joint hearing of the Planning Commission and the Board of Supervisors during which the event venue special exception permits for Landino Barn and Backporch Vineyard were approved. I would note that Backporch Vineyard is hosting their grand opening this Saturday, September 5th, from 12:00 PM to 6:00 PM. On Wednesday, August 19th, myself, Mr. Stonehill and Dr. Young met with Captain Copeland to discuss his vision for his new command, our vision for the county and how we might work together for the mutual benefit of both. We discussed the broadband connectivity issues we are facing for students trying to tele-learn, teachers trying to tele-teach and his employees trying to telework using broadband infrastructure well below the capacity needed for success. We also pitched Mr. Stonehill's idea regarding a fishing pier, which we will discuss later this evening on this evening's agenda.

We have received correspondence returned from Representative Wittman's office to indicate that they are working on a legislative fix to attempt to resolve our request to the Federal Communications Commission to access the school's E-Rate fiber network. We have also received a response from Senator Warner and have a call with his staff later this week. I wanna thank Dr. Young, Mr. Dines and Mr. Convoy again for their continued work on the fiber map and for their support of this endeavor. Yesterday, the USDA announced that the Summer Food Service Program would be extended through December 31st, 2020, as long as funding remains available from Congress. Several of us requested Representative Whitman support this during his weekly telephone calls during the summer and in late July, he sent correspondence to USDA to support the extension of the program.

I recall the five years I spent volunteering with King George Summer Lunch Bunch and told him firsthand of the need here in our community. I am grateful to him for his support and to the USDA for their decision. I spoke to Dr. Benson about this yesterday and he indicated that as soon as the division receives the updated guidance from the state because the program is administered on the state level, they would be ready to resume seamless meal service. Thank you to our schools as well, as I know this will keep some of our bus drivers and food service workers employed.

You can find more information regarding the extension of that program online. I wanna thank Dr. Benson and all his employees at every school, especially the IT staff at the help desk for executing a first day of virtual instruction yesterday. I know there are both compliments and complaints. I appreciate students, their families and teachers for their continued patience and grace as we try to adjust to the times and circumstances in which we find ourselves. And lastly, I am requesting consensus of the board to direct staff to send correspondence to Virginia Department of Conservation and Recreation in support of a study of the lower Rappahannock River, including the portion that passes through our jurisdiction in order that the General Assembly might adopt the lower Rappahannock River into its Virginia Scenic Rivers program. This is the 50th anniversary of the program and more information can be found online. I previously sent this request to my colleagues last week after having sent a request to Dr. Young to direct staff to review what the procedures are, how to get DCR to take a look at our section and if there was any cost that we would have to incur for requesting this study. So, I would ask my colleagues for support... Consensus tonight for the correspondence to be sent to DCR.

0:13:42 Cathy Binder: One other thing with that, I spoke to the person who's in charge of the Friends of the Rappahannock and he had said that there was no cost to the locality for this to get the study done, to see if we could add it on to that. So, what is the consent... Do I have a consensus from the board then?

0:13:58 Mr. Granger: Agreed.

0:14:00 Cathy Binder: All right. Thank you, Ms. Cupka.

0:14:02 Ann Cupka: Thank you very much. That's all I have tonight, ma'am.

0:14:04 Cathy Binder: All right, Mr. Bueche.

0:14:06 Mr. Bueche: Thank you Madam Chair. On the 26th I attended the joint meeting with the school board, but that's pretty much as far as a report. But I'd like to address Mr. Brian's comments. Thank you for coming out tonight, sir. And you asked what is the county doing? What we are doing is right now, as Ms Cupka mentioned earlier, we're looking into accessing the school's fiber, but that is gonna take legislative action. There were strings attached to the grant that put that infrastructure in place and that's how we have to work around it. So, the board has given direction to county staff, a letter was drafted, sent to our lawmakers, federal and state for support, and like Ms. Cupka spoke to earlier, we're moving forward with that to see if some legislative action can be taken so we can access that. Hopefully, that has a short turn and can happen pretty rapidly. As far as planning, we're actually engaged in the All Points Broadband, Dominion Energy and Northern Neck Electric Cooperative right now with other counties. King George County was very aggressive in this program. I believe the baseline was 300-and- something...

0:15:29 Neiman Young: $345,000.

0:15:29 Mr. Bueche: $345,000. Thank you, Dr. Young, to participate with surrounding localities. King George county agreed to put in $500,000 and the reason we did that was absolutely strategic. We wanna get done first. And that's to be able to address the needs. So, that's what the county is doing as far as that. But basically, with Verizon and Atlantic, whatever the heck they're called, they're private companies. County government cannot direct a private entity to expand their business into the county. We can make things more attractive, which is what we've done with KGI and allowing for space on our water towers and working with them. And I saw that they're gonna be expanding into Oakland Park, so I'm looking forward to that. They're a local company, a good run company, and... But there's costs associated with everything for services. So, that's where we are at with that. The bottom line is, all our infrastructure is experiencing overload right now with the schools, teleworking, 'cause that's not how the system was meant to be. That is not normal. I know there's talk about a new normal in this country. I don't buy into that. I'm looking forward to getting things open. I'm looking forward to our students not having to sit in front of a laptop in their kitchen and to be able to get back into schools and receive an in-person education. That's the goal. That's the normal to get back to. The normal is to get people back into their offices, back into work. That's what we need to shoot for. So, it's not a matter of if and waiting things out to see if we're gonna get back to normal. It's how are we gonna get back to normal? And that's what we need to get to working on. So, thank you very much, Madam Chair, that concludes my report.

0:17:23 Cathy Binder: Thank you, Mr. Bueche. Mr. Granger.

0:17:25 Richard Granger: Yes, ma'am. Mr. Ryan, thank you for coming to the speaking. Mr. Bush, I think, summed up pretty well. The only thing I would add on to that was with the public- private partnership, which would be between Dominion Power, the Northern Neck Co-op, All Points Broadband and the localities that participate. The idea would be they would come in with the idea of serving citizens who do not currently have broadband available. So, the idea wouldn't be to try to go into places that already have Atlantic broadband available. The idea would be try to reach those people who don't, which is identified as 25 megabits down and three megabits up speed. So, it's not like you should be worried that that program would be just meeting the same... The needs for the same set of people. It's not really about making competition and against an existing company, it's about helping those people who don't currently have that service.

0:18:16 Mr. Ryan: Can I say something?

0:18:17 Richard Granger: I'm sorry. No sir, this is not a conversation. You're welcome to email me or any of my colleagues. I just want to add that clarification on. But apologies, at this point, it's not a back and forth, but please feel free to contact me or any of my colleagues and we can then set up a time to talk or after the meeting even. Other than that, on Wednesday, August 19th, I also attended the joint planning commission meeting for the Backporch and Landino properties for their special exception permit. On Wednesday, August 26th, I attended the CARES Act funding meeting with the school board with my colleagues as well. I think both those went very well and I appreciate both the school board and the planning commission working with us to meet with us to get those things done. Other than that, the only thing I wanna do is, this isn't really on our agenda, but it's something that had been in my mind recently with the idea about the old courthouse. And I know that we're looking, obviously, at the bond and employing a bond for finding the funds for doing the building of that new courthouse and then, the question would be, What are we gonna do with the old courthouse? And I know Dr. Young and some of our...

My colleagues here on the board have talked about the need for more staff space and how do we go about doing that? And the old courthouse could be used for that, but obviously, the big challenge is that there's problems in regards to mold and so, what we would need to do is a study or have a company come in and do an analysis to really give us a heads up. But if we wait till the courthouse is built, I personally have some concerns that we are gonna outgrow our own space before that time. And so, I'd like to try to see if we could double up and see if my colleagues would be willing to entertain... We don't have to decide tonight. But think about it and we could talk about it at the next meeting, or we can decide tonight about maybe doing an RFI to find out costs for doing an analysis of that building, to find out what would need to be done with the idea, maybe even being to say, "Hey, let's try to roll that all into one bond." Rates are really good right now. Hopefully, it wouldn't be an outrageous amount of money. Obviously, we'd have to wait to hear what they would say and then, that might dictate what we end up doing, obviously. But I think it would behoove us to maybe understand what we need to do with the courthouse sooner than later.

0:20:36 Cathy Binder: Mr. Bueche.

0:20:37 Mr. Bueche: Thank you, Madam Chair. I understand what Mr. Granger's saying. I tend to agree with him. However, I would like to wait at least till the next meeting only so we can get a progress report from our Infrastructure Advisory Committee. I know they've been doing great work. They've been actually visiting some of the sites throughout the county and talking with people and forging a plan and I think the courthouse is... Well, I know the courthouse is one of those facilities that they're looking into. So I know we task them with coming back with a recommendation over the properties for potential use or potential disposal or liquidation, whatever. So, I would like to at least get a feeling of where they are right now. That's where I'm at. Thank you, Madam Chair.

0:21:38 Cathy Binder: Ms. Cupka.

0:21:39 Ann Cupka: Thank you, Madam Chair. My understanding, how we left that conversation was that Dr. Young, you are actually presenting that to the Economic Development... You're doing a presentation before the Economic Development Authority next week regarding that. Is that correct?

0:21:57 Neiman Young: Regarding the $22 million bond that covers the new courthouse.

0:22:03 Ann Cupka: Yes.

0:22:03 Neiman Young: Only.

0:22:04 Ann Cupka: Right. And so, sorry... And I should have clarified how I asked that. So then, that leads me to, Does what we're talking about now potentially alter the discussion you might already have in mind for next week's Economic Development Authority meeting?

0:22:23 Neiman Young: I believe that it could potentially because if I go back to Kyle Laux and say, "Hey, look I've spoken with the board and they wanted to actually look at getting a larger bond that takes care of not just the new courthouse, but also the, old courthouse." I don't know if that's going to change what type of bond that he needs in order to get that amount of money, so it could potentially change. So, I do believe that this is... I do feel a little sense of urgency. However, Mr. Bush is absolutely correct with the Infrastructure Advisory Committee. They have been doing a lot of work to include taking a look at the old courthouse. However, excuse me... But Chris Clark is here today and he has been the staff member that had been liaising with the Infrastructure Advisory Committee and I think he has a strong handle on their thought process regarding the old courthouse and if the board would entertain, I would love to invite him up to the podium and he could give us some thoughts on where that committee is regarding the old courthouse.

0:23:24 Cathy Binder: Chris, I appreciate you coming up. I've spoken to a couple of members of the committee and they're very enthusiastic and they've told me they've brought outside experts to come in and look at some of the properties, so, Mr. Clarke.

0:23:36 Chris Clarke: Yes. We hit a little delay through the start of COVID, so we did not meet in March, April... March and April. I wanna say we met virtually in May, which was the first day they went through all of the properties in the county. I worked with Carl Conboy in community development to get a list of everything that we own, whether it's the county, the schools, or the services authority. They have a very complete notebook. We did not print them every detail report on every well house and pump station, but if it's a piece of property two acres or bigger, pretty much they have a piece... They have information on it. They then rated all of the properties as one, two or three. Like Barnesfield Park, three. Clearly, we're not gonna do anything with Barnesfield Park. We're not gonna get rid of that. King George High School, Three. We're not gonna do anything with King George High School. They rated some properties at two that we have not gotten to yet, and then, there were some urgent need ones, so we looked at the old middle school we have toward that facility. They have a lot of questions about opportunities they see there, including that's one of the facilities they actually...

0:24:40 Chris Clarke: We brought in a roofer to come in and inspect the roof and he found... That roofer's findings was that the roof is actually in much better shape than some of the stories tell and that it's missing... That with some preventative maintenance that we still need to add now and try not to overburden the general properties, but if we can get some of that... The gutters cleaned and things there, that that roof actually is in much better shape. And then, when I thought back through and making all the tours, it makes sense, because the only place I've ever seen water in the building is in the cafeterias on the back and in the gymnasium. So, if that roof was as bad as some of the stories are, you would think that we would find water in more of the building. They have toured the old court... We went through the current courthouse with Mr. Mason. And again, they have a lot of ideas. We haven't really come to a consensus on these things. They've come to the ideas and thrown out a lot of ideas, but they're very interested in the idea of using that building for some other options going forward. And they've also looked at... We went through... Last month, we went through the school board building and the preschool.

0:25:46 Neiman Young: Chris, the question the board has is, What are the ideas that the committee has on the old courthouse? Can you give us a quick review of some of these ideas that they're discussing and maybe some potential uses that the committee is taking a look at?

0:26:00 Chris Clarke: Specifically on the courthouse, they... There was discussion of expanding the museum, whether it would be to knock the wall out between the current museum and the Commonwealth's attorney's office or to relocate the museum within the facility, moving economic development and tourism out there and having a standing tourism type office possibly partnering with the chamber, including having maybe some dedicated space for the chamber so they have an office to go to and a place to have meetings, so we're not bouncing them through different county facilities like we do. They had me review and I've not have presented to them yet, the space needs for all of the departments, so different... I asked each department and constitutional officer, "What do you anticipate needing in the next five years?" Some of them said, "hey, maybe I need one more office. I anticipate having one more employee."

Now, obviously, that's all budget dependent, and what you all approve at certain points, but if... Take for example, the treasurer's office might have said, and this is all conjecture, may have said, "Hey, I may need one more person and do we think that we would need this much more space? Then, is there relocation space within [0:27:05] ____ or would there be... Would that be that they'd be the ones to move out to the courthouse?" So, that, we haven't gotten into, but that information we have to give to them.

0:27:15 Richard Granger: Any discussion about the state of the building, 'cause I know that there's been some concern from the the courts about mold and analyzing that situation?

0:27:24 Chris Clarke: There are definitely some need for, probably very soon, some more remediation. It doesn't look like some of the things are solved. The night we actually toured the courthouse, it was raining at the end of the meeting. So, when we left, the interesting concern was that the drain pipes that come off the building run within about a foot of the parking lot, but they don't run all the way to the parking lot. So, the water comes off the roof, down the gutters, out to the end of those pipes and then, seems to make its way back to the building rather than going somewhere else, and if there's a fix or a way to reroute that water once it comes off the back of the building. But that was something they noted, actually after the meeting, so it wasn't actually part of the actual meeting notes.

0:28:11 Cathy Binder: I would like to hear more from... Talking to a few members and I met them just randomly in places of business. They seemed very enthusiastic and they got some really good members. We did very well appointing who we did on the committee and I know the need for it. But I also want to make sure that we give them the chance to come up with an idea without spending a lot of money, because from what I understand, Mr. Clark, some of those people, they have a lot of connections with people that have given their services to come look at our buildings and without the county having to pay a cost for that. As I've always said, it's really good. We have so many smart people in this community. We can use their services and they like to give back, especially retired people. As I know the need, but maybe giving them a little bit more time to come and give us their plan, maybe accelerate their end date, instead of being the end of the year, maybe make November 1st being their end date. But I understand that also hurts trying to find the extra money and like catch-22, so the idea that just... It's time sensitive. Doctor Young.

0:29:10 Neiman Young: Yes, Madam Chair. And I definitely appreciate the committee's hard work. I always love volunteer investment and I appreciate volunteer investment in the county's concerns, but given the time-sensitive nature of the discussion, I wouldn't want us to remain at the time and priorities of the committee. I think that if the board wanted to go and move forward or would even consider utilizing the courthouse as an auxiliary building for the staff, I would highly advise that you all probably take staff's recommendation. And that is that understanding those uses, those are great, museum and our tourism office. But the reality is administration is growing and we're growing faster than we have space. And if we want to be able to maintain a staff that can keep up with the pace of the county's growth and business, we're going to need the facility to be able to accommodate that staff. And Mr. Granger is absolutely right. This is exactly the time to strike while the iron is hot. Since we're already pursuing a bond, interest rates are low and we can definitely get a bundle to take care of both buildings and get it done as cheap as possible as the market is going to allow us to address the issue.

0:30:28 Cathy Binder: I'll let my colleagues in a second, but my only comment on that and it goes back to the very beginning and when I did the infrastructure plan is that there's a problem in that building and we need to have somebody come and address why is that water getting in there, why is the mold getting there and how do we remedy that if we wanna save the building to use it for county staff? So, that still has to be factored into the equation. And you know that I was one of the people that was not for the committee and wanted to have something done right away and I'm actually applauding them right now. So that... It comes from a big step of they're doing a good job, but I understand the needs and I'll let my colleagues give... Mr. Granger first and then I'll go down the line.

0:31:03 Mr. Granger: I just want to say real quick. I don't think it would be necessarily co- opting the committee's opportunity to present that information. I think you summed it up perfectly an idea that building needs to be analyzed. And so, that's what I... That's really what my purpose in bringing this dialogue up now was to say, "Let's try... " I think we should maybe move forward with trying to do the analysis period sooner than later. And then, even if the committee comes back and then says, "Hey, we think we should do this," and we end up going with that, we need to know that that building can be used in that way. And so, I think it's something that needs to be done, either if it's county staff going in there, or if it's expanding the museum or any other ideas that the committee comes up with. That information is something we're gonna need to do for any of those options. And so, that's what I was trying to say, I think we should maybe move forward, try and figure out what do we need to do for this building and seeing if we can do that now.

0:31:57 Cathy Binder: I gotcha. Mr. Bueche.

0:32:00 Mr. Bueche: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to put a little pause on this for a minute in that we still have the old middle school. And there was discussions previously about the school board's current building and maybe relocating them and some county offices there. There are so many varying scenarios out there that I don't wanna make a rush to fail here in saying we're gonna identify one property for such a purpose. I just wanna remind everybody that we are $1.3 million in debt to ourselves before the next budget, and that's before we obligate $1. So, I understand interest rates, however, everything is relative. So, interest rates are lower now, home assessments are probably gonna be lower. When the economy comes back up, interest rates go up, home assessments go up. It's all relative. I don't wanna go ahead and obligate a bond when we're potentially facing a recession, revenues are short next year. The state is already short, which means we're probably gonna see a lot more unfunded mandates, because the state's not gonna discontinue services or regulations it has, but it's still gonna be an obligation of the county.

We have to pay for all that and we don't know how, we don't know what we're working with. Now, we've done a thorough study of the courthouse, we understand that we need a new courthouse now. It's very proactive and fiscally responsible to pull the bond now with the lower interest rates, because we know exactly what it's for. We can articulate to the taxpayer, "Yes, this is what we're doing with your tax dollars, this is exactly what we're doing it." I would not wanna pull a bond, an excessive bond, and we still don't have a plan, just because interest rates were lower. I would like to tackle everything in an efficient way and know exactly what we're gonna do. So, I would like to hear back from the Infrastructure Advisory Committee. Now, if that means expediting their findings, like Ms. Binder suggested, if they can... If they still have time to be able to present us something of merit, I'm fine with that and then, we just need to go ahead and make a decision and then, we can execute. Then we can pull a bond. We can do that as long as we have a plan. I'm very hesitant on obligating money for something that's still in a hypothetical status, yet, given all that. That's all I have, Madam Chair.

0:34:54 Cathy Binder: Thank you. Ms. Cupka.

0:34:57 Ann Cupka: I don't believe I received really an answer to my question. All I wanna know is [chuckle] does this in any way change... Do you need something more from us, Dr. Young, or are we going to proceed the way that we had consensus when we met regarding this matter, was it last meeting or last month, so that you can go before the EDA next week? You're good.

0:35:31 Neiman Young: Yes, yes. Yes, ma'am. It's good.

0:35:33 Ann Cupka: Okay.

0:35:36 Neiman Young: As at the moment, if the board had a consensus saying, "Hey, well, we don't want to do anything with the courthouse. We just simply wanna focus on the $22 million bond for the new courthouse," then we don't need any additional information.

0:35:47 Ann Cupka: Right. That's perfect. Thank you.

0:35:51 Cathy Binder: Mr. Stonehill.

0:35:58 Mr. Stonehill: I think, I have to agree with Mr. Bush this time, and kinda hold off. I mean, with our economic and money shortcomings and everything. I'd certainly like to see what the advisory group has. They're there for a reason, I definitely wanna hear what they have to say. I understand the interest rates are very low, but I just think we're not there yet. I don't really think that we're ready to start getting into that.

0:36:27 Cathy Binder: Thank you. Mr. Granger again.

0:36:29 Mr. Granger: Yes, ma'am, I don't know if I articulated myself poorly and if I did, I apologize. I guess my intention isn't... I think Mr. Bush had a fair point. It may have sounded like I... And I was saying that I wanna move forward just taking more money out to make this project happen. More what I was looking for is to better understand that building because at some point, we're gonna need to understand that building. We've all talked about, "Hey, we can't just let our old buildings just crumble away and die." And we need to at least understand what do we need to do to least maintain this? And that's more what I'm interested in trying to find out, looking at this building and saying, "All right, there might be a mold issue somewhere, is there part of it that needs to be demolished? If there's not any part that needs to be demolished, is there anything that... Any remediation that needs to be done to address mold, so that it doesn't continue to grow or new mold grow?"

And so, that's activities I was thinking of, I wasn't even thinking about from the perspective of saying, let's build something new in there. I was saying, let's try to get this building to a maintainable state and then, the committee... I'm sorry. The committee's recommendations could come through and we can move forward with that, and then that could be further down the line or county staff could get moved in. But if it's in an inhabitable state, I feel like even if we were in a bind, we could then start using that space in some way, in an ad hoc way, if that was the need. And I'm not saying we need to move forward, but... I'm not talking about trying to obligate dollars. I'm just maybe saying, let's put an RFI out to find out what it would cost just to have an organization come in and do an analysis of that building for us, if it's overnight so that the courts aren't being impacted. But an RFI is just trying to figure out what do people think it's gonna cost in order to that, then we can maybe put an RFP out if we thought, "Hey, that seems reasonable and we'd like to move forward with that."

0:38:21 Cathy Binder: Go ahead, Mr. Bueche.

0:38:22 Mr. Bueche: Given what Mr. Granger just said, I can agree with that, but it also made me think a little more to what Mr. Clark said about cleaning out the gutters. If we're gonna do that, I'd like to see a maintenance plan for some of our facilities, including the schools. Are the gutters being cleaned out? Is it something so simple as that that could prevent water from coming in the cafeteria or the gym? So, even if we're not gonna use these spaces, we should at least maintain these properties so that when we do go to utilize them or we go to do something with it, it hasn't degraded over a 10-year period. It's at least been maintained to its current state, so we're not starting even further behind the curve ball. So, given what Mr. Granger just said, I can go along with his request.

0:39:18 Cathy Binder: Well, I have a suggestion at the very end. But I agree, I've been pushing preventative maintenance ever since I've been on the board and from what I understand, it's just maintaining roofs and we're not doing that, so I was gonna suggest to Dr. Young that we have some preventative maintenance plans in our CIP talks that we'll have very soon in our work sessions and ask the schools to also have preventative maintenance plans and give us an estimate. We know you have these facilities and this is what would potentially could go wrong in one, five, 10, 15 years. Put it on the CIPs to give us a heads up instead of just dumping, "Here's a roof, we need this much," and that's the only thing on there. There are buildings, there are costs, there are preventative maintenance costs. They should be in that CIP every year. So that is something I was gonna ask you Dr. Young when we got there. I'm just telling you a little heads up ahead of time, so I will be asking you if you could have that figured into the CIP.

So my suggestion to my colleagues is, what if we moved to November 1st when we would like the Infrastructure Committee to have their plan? I know they're very smart people, and I'm sure they'll work really hard to have that done, and we put out an RFI, specifically for the courthouse and the old middle school to see what would... To potential, I guess, for the mold mitigation in both buildings and the roof for those two buildings, 'cause those are the ones that we would be the best utilized for our problems with the schools and our county staff needs if we had to renovate those two buildings. And what do you guys think?

0:41:01 Mr. Granger: I'm in favor of having an RFI to start moving forward on this process, and then obviously, once we get that information, we're not obligating any dollars now, so then we could put the RFP out if we feel like it's something we could take on.

0:41:12 Cathy Binder: And an RFI is no cost, correct, Dr. Young and Mr. Britton?

0:41:15 Mr. Britton: That's right.

0:41:16 Neiman Young: That's correct.

0:41:17 Cathy Binder: And an RFI is not saying we're committing to something. We're just looking for information and it's been in the paper, it's been out there on social media that we're interested in taking... Being good stewards of our building and not keep doing past mistakes by not taking care of them.

0:41:30 Mr. Granger: So I'm gonna make a motion to direct staff to put an RFI out for the courthouse and the old King George Middle School, with the idea of looking at improving the infrastructure and the maintenance that would be required to get those buildings into a habitable state.

0:41:50 Mr. Bueche: Second.

0:41:52 Cathy Binder: Any further discussion? All those in favor?

0:41:54 All: Aye.

0:41:56 Cathy Binder: Any nays? Chair votes aye, motion carries.

0:42:01 Mr. Granger: So, I know this is my board report, so I apologize for co-opting to have that discussion and I know it was off the cuff. Thank you to my colleagues though for entertaining me on that, and I'll try to be more early on in providing that information. It was something that I really thought about today, but thank you everyone. That's all I have.

0:42:20 Cathy Binder: Thank you, Mr. Granger.

0:42:21 Mr. Stonehill: Madam Chair?

0:42:22 Cathy Binder: Yes, Mr. Stonehill.

0:42:23 Mr. Stonehill: While we're still on this, Dr. Young, if it's just as simple as getting someone up on the roof, or as Mr. Clarke said, extensions on the gutters to save some of these buildings a little bit, especially with the amount of rain that we've been having, you can maybe get with Mr. Munsey and get those guys up on the roof to get gutters cleaned and even just those roll-out extensions to get the water away from the building if Mr. Clarke said that it's... The water is coming back in there, just something as simple as that in the time being.

0:43:00 Neiman Young: Roger, sir, we're having a discussion about preventative maintenance and I thought that I conveyed it before, but we do have a robust maintenance program for our county facilities. These mentioning some roofs and deteriorating facilities aren't really county facilities, we have the old middle school, but we actually inherited it in that condition. We have our General Properties Department. It's daily actively engaged in to preventative maintenance of the county facilities. Just two days ago, they were power-washing the River Cohen Building, going out to the Citizen's Center. They are actively engaged in ensuring that our facilities are cared for. This discussion regarding the drainage of the water not fully making into the parking lot and coming back into the old courthouse, I was not aware of that and we're definitely going to take a look at getting somebody out there to extend that drain. And I think that's pretty easy and that's something that we could take care of relatively cheaply and relatively quickly. But I will have a discussion with Mike. I know that they're checking the roofs, but I'll have a conversation with him and say, "Hey, we talked with the Board last night, given the increase in the weather and the rain, we're gonna escalate the review of the gutters and rooftops."

0:44:26 Cathy Binder: Well, I know I would like a checklist or something. We never see it, so if you don't see it, you don't know it exists. So, maybe sending out a report to the board twice a year, something about, "What's our preventive maintenance been for our buildings?" And concerning the old middle school, I know we inherited it from the school board, but what I see in the CIP as a problem is we don't see that one, five, 10, 15 year from the schools. It's... We as supervisors, we allocate the money. They come to us and tell us what they need and then, we allocate the money, so it does come to us. So, we need to see a forecast of what these repairs are and what we need. We only see when it's an immediate need. We need a little bit... I don't know if my colleagues agree. We need a little bit more information. We need to see foresight and I've been saying this for quite a while. But with that, Mr. Stonehill, do you have anything else on you?

Alright, thank you. Now, my board report. I'll try to keep it short. Mr. Ryan, I understand your concerns. I am another one of those people who doesn't have the best Internet, contacted... Our road members contacted Atlantic Broadband and Metrocast before that and were gonna charge $27,000 to bring that line down. They are a private business, they can charge what they want. I had to get one of those MiFi hotspots today because we were trying to do it through the phone and it didn't work. My daughter was getting very frustrated. For two days she kept getting kicked off the Internet, and she's a very perfectionist. And it was quite an anxiety for her to constantly keep getting... She didn't hear what the teacher was saying and it really bothered her. And I'm sure there's a lot of other students that are like that, that it really is hard for them to learn in that manner when they're used to a routine and the way they do things. And the teachers are trying really hard and I have to comment and commend the Potomac teachers, the fifth-grade staff, is they understand when the kids get kicked off and you just chat with them and they say, "Hey, we'll be back online at two o'clock and if you missed anything, we'll go over it," when they've been really good in those two days.

My daughter's been one that keeps coming on to ask for assistance, but she's not the only one. So, I really commend the staff on what they were doing, and we understand the needs. And there's just no... What I'm trying to say is there's no easy fix unless we were the money fairy and had lots and lots of money to dole out to put the fiber all over the county, but we don't, especially as a county government that relies on taxes and we have so many needs. We're doing the best we can and we're trying to look at all avenues, but there's just no quick and easy fix to it. And that's regrettable, but it's what we have. But we're trying our best to get it and we have options that we're pursuing. I went to majority of the functions, my colleagues have already mentioned, but I wanna give a shout out at the First Responders Dinner, to the Sheriff's Office and our County Fire and EMS for their awards. It was a very nice presentation and the videos were nice.

I had spoke to Mr. Allwine about getting them for us, but I think they were a little too large to send to me to show here, 'cause you would have appreciated what our public servants have done and the achievements that they have been honored with by our region, and I commend them. And I also wanna thank all of our staff for all they've been doing this whole time during COVID. That includes the schools, the general properties, our treasurer, registrar, everybody. Community development, I know they've been seeing a lot more uptick. And where I'm getting here is, as many know, I've traveled a bunch up North to take care of my father's affairs and I spoke to a realtor up there and she said she can't stop. Her business is just overflowing as for people escaping the cities now to go and to live in a more rural atmosphere. And so, I anticipate they're gonna be starting to come here in a little bit and so, that infrastructure is gonna be taxed a little bit and community development is gonna be a little more busy coming real soon because no matter what they tell you, they're moving. 'Cause I spoke to a realtor in that area, and where I grew up is very rural, believe it or not in New Jersey.

But they're moving from the city to those areas that are in Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, and coming down South, 'cause renting a truck was really hard, because everyone's taking them. And the first thing they ask you is, "What Southern state are you going to?" So, they're coming, and like it or not, we gotta be prepared for growth that'll probably be coming, especially with the new bridge. And that being said, I will conclude my report. I move now for a motion for the consent agenda.

0:48:57 Mr. Bueche: So moved.

0:49:00 Cathy Binder: Second?

0:49:00 Mr. Granger: Second.

0:49:01 Cathy Binder: All those in favor?

0:49:02 All: Aye.

0:49:03 Cathy Binder: Any discussion afore? Sorry. [chuckle] Any nays? Chair votes aye, motion carries. Next up, Constitutional Officer's report. 0:49:13 Dr. Young: None, Madam Chair.

0:49:14 Cathy Binder: All right. Mr. Britton, a report from the County Attorney Delinquent Accounts Update.

0:49:18 Mr. Britton: Just that one thing. We went ahead and executed the contract with TACS and they've been in contact with the Constitutional Offices and the other departments and especially with Mr. Weakley at the Service Authority. And he is, at this point, trying to figure out the best way to get his billing system, I think it's called Munibilling, working symbiotically with either the Bright! System or whatever other system TACS can handle. And so, but it is up and running and they've had several meetings already. So hopefully, those several hundred accounts will be whittled down in the near future. Although, there may be some issues resulting from the COVID-19 and people not being able to pay various accounts. I think that hits utilities hardest, so, that's why it's important to get it up and running. But everything that the board wanted accomplished, I think by executing that... Ordaining that ordinance happened and it was very quick because of the Bright! System or AS400 system. So, we'll report back on how well it goes, how many cases get just a letter, what the process is and what, if any, go to court and we'll give you at least a biennial snapshot.

0:50:44 Cathy Binder: Do you have any questions for Mr. Britton? Mr. Stonehill?

0:50:47 Mr. Stonehill: Mr. Britton, the delinquent accounts, that's not going through Munibilling, that's coming directly from TACS?

0:51:00 Mr. Britton: Yes, Munibilling is what the service authority uses to send out bills. They don't handle collection of delinquent accounts. I guess they just send out the bills and then, from now on... It got up to about $550, but from now on, we'll say who didn't pay the bills as well. And then, that, after the county and the service authority have made the attempts to contact the people to determine whether they are what's called an active customer or an inactive customer and what have you, whether they've moved out or are deceased, for whatever reason they may not be paying their bill. Those that they feel are legitimate and of an amount which is... You don't spend $10 to collect $5, so of an amount that is worthwhile, they will be passed on to TACS.

And then they will go forward with the phone call, the letters, and those efforts. And as I said, out of the cases that we would expect, you would see two or three a year all actually going to court. And of course, those would be... As you know, Mr. Stonehill, there's two kind of folks that you go after most, right? The habitual and the ones that are very large non-payers. And so, that's the kind that tends to... The person with thousands and thousands of dollars, who just keeps not paying, not paying, getting different residences, getting the services, hooking up at different residences, and so the habitual offenders and the very large non-payers. Of course, there can be legitimate excuses and reasons as well and those are looked into, but that's the process and we will report back on both collections and how fast and how much.

0:52:52 Mr. Stonehill: Thank you. 0:52:53 Cathy Binder: Thank you, Mr. Britton. Next up, Mr. Clark, Rosslyn Road Property presentation from our Director of Parks and Rec.

0:53:13 Chris Clarke: There we go. Good evening Madam Chair, members of the board. Tonight I return to you with an additional proposal for the property at 3321 Rosslyn Road. Next slide, please. 3321 Rosslyn Road was acquired by the County as part of the mitigation for the lands loss for the Harry Nice Thomas Mac Middleton Route 301 Bridge project. The property is shown here as parcel 10-1-3. Next slide, please. Staff has met with members of the Ralph Bunche Alumni Association, the King George County Historical Society and the Dahlgren Heritage Museum to develop an additional proposed use for the property as a museum. All three groups are committed to staff the museum and work jointly. Safety and security policies would be developed and the museum would have a set daytime only hours currently proposed is 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM, Wednesday through Saturday. The museum would use the first floor for displays, the second floor would be a conference room available for rent, and the museums and parks and recreation would share use of the basement. Next slide, please.

The working group made up of county staff and volunteers from these groups recommends working with an architect to develop planning documents for utilizing tourism funds and also utilizing those funds to make renovations. The TAC has been consulted by staff and they are receptive to this. A change of use and ADA renovations are needed. The groups and the county would also need to enter into an MOU to protect all parties and spell out the terms of the agreement. Next slide, please.

For uses of museum, changes to the first floor would encompass ADA upgrades including ramping, restrooms and doorway adjustments. Each museum user would have dedicated space as seen here. The Ralph Bunche Alumni Association is what was used to be... Was named by the original owner as Studio Two, the Dahlgren Heritage Museum in what was originally Studio One, and the King George County Historical Society in what was the living room. The bedrooms would be used as an office and a storage room. The kitchen would remain in place but be labeled as "Warming use only" for any small daytime events hosted by the museum. Next slide, please.

In this plan, the second floor would be modified slightly to remove the closet wall to allow for approximately a 400 square foot conference room. This room would be available for rental as well as for use by museum groups and King George County for meetings. Next slide. In the basement, each group would have space to store additional artifacts and displays which would allow for the ability to change public displays on a regular basis. In addition, parks and recreation would have access to storage space for use for future programming either on site or at Wayside Park. Next slide.

In order to provide security and safety for both the site and our neighbors, automated or keypad locks would be installed to limit access to appropriate areas of the house. Security cameras would need to be installed. Appropriate fencing would be erected at the property lines and consultation with the neighbors. The walkway to the Potomac River would also need to be improved with steps and/or ramping to improve access. Next slide. As discussed at the August 4th Board of Supervisors meeting, the change of use process would have to take place including structural and electrical inspections and updates, ADA compliance and restroom renovation. Those items will determine the occupancy of the building. Fire Rescue recommends that a fire alarm system be installed as well.

So tonight, I'm not asking for any action to be taken by the Board of Supervisors. This informational item is to help prepare both the board and the public for the upcoming joint meeting or town hall on Wednesday, September 9th at 6:30 PM at the property. That night, the public is invited to join staff, the Parks and Recreation Advisory Committee, the three historical groups, as well as the Board of Supervisors in providing feedback on both this plan and the event venue plan that was presented on August 4th. Thank you.

0:57:26 Cathy Binder: Thank you, Mr. Clark. Does anybody have any questions? And I know Mr. Barrett is here. Ms. Cupka?

0:57:33 Ann Cupka: Yes. Thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Clark. Have the museums, the individual museums themselves provided you and/or your committee any feedback on this proposed plan?

0:57:52 Chris Clarke: We have met with the museums three times right before we met including virtually this afternoon. We met on site last week, and they were very receptive. They actually picked the spots that they were interested in. So each group picked theirs. Ralph Bunche Alumni jumped in first and picked this, but they really were interested in that studio. The Heritage Museum liked the studio they picked and the Historical Society I think was very receptive. Mr. Barrett is here as a member of the Historical Society and could speak to that. But they all, every time we have spoken, have been very receptive and very excited about the opportunity to be able to expand their displays and expand their reach in the county.

0:58:33 Ann Cupka: That leads to my next question where it seems you probably have answered. This is in addition to their current space, because I'm looking at this floor plan and I cannot imagine, particularly Dahlgren Heritage Museum finding this more suited for their needs than their current location on 301 that has road frontage and has a lot more space, it looks to me, than this one studio room does because I've been... You took me on a tour of the property. So, I guess that's my question.

0:59:13 Chris Clarke: Yes, for...

0:59:15 Ann Cupka: Are these museums on board with this?

0:59:20 Chris Clarke: Yes, for the Historical...

0:59:20 Ann Cupka: So, this is in addition to wherever they already are?

0:59:22 Chris Clarke: Yes.

0:59:23 Ann Cupka: This would be of a satellite display location. 0:59:26 Chris Clarke: For the Historical Society and the Dahlgren Heritage Museum, they would both be additional facility space. One example they use... Mr. Gates uses is the heavy piece of ordinance that they have in the museum could not be put in a house and be on that floor, no matter how many upgrades we made probably to the flooring choice to make it strong. It's on a concrete floor there at the Heritage Museum, but they would be able to expand those displays and expand their reach. For Ralph Bunche Alumni at this moment, their artifacts are in people's basements and in storage rooms, so they would have... It would be their first reach out and hopefully, in the future, there will be an additional space for them actually in the school.

1:00:03 Ann Cupka: Thank you. And then, it looks to me like no matter what we plan or what we decide to do, the second floor is problematic as far as ADA compliance goes. Am I...

1:00:14 Chris Clarke: Correct.

1:00:15 Ann Cupka: 'Cause I don't see an elevator being... I don't see us being able to do that, so, that's another question that I have or concern.

1:00:22 Chris Clarke: Yes. Both the basement and the second floor would be ADA accessibility struggles. In our conversation with Mr. Hudson and Community Development, it was the idea that if we were to rent the space, that we at least had like space available. If someone came to us and said, "Well, we would really like to meet on Rosslyn Road, but we have somebody who has accessibility needs," that we would then be able to offer them the sun room in the kitchen as a meeting space, or delay opening the museum that day and using the living room around the displays as their meeting space, or something of that nature.

1:00:56 Ann Cupka: Okay, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.

1:01:00 Chris Clarke: You're welcome.

1:01:00 Cathy Binder: Does anybody else have a question? Mr. Bueche?

1:01:03 Mr. Bueche: Initially, when the idea of the museums was presented for this property, I was outspoken against it. I actually like this presentation. But tonight, we had a conversation earlier about our growing staff and needs. So, the second floor, if you're gonna have the museums there, is it possible that we could look at utilizing the second floor for office space for economic development and tourism? They would be right there with the museums, right there by Barnesfield Park and that would free up office space in the River Cone Building. Now, that's not gonna meet our growing needs over time, but immediately, that would free up a hallway. So, I just think that's maybe something we could look into. I would think that the office space needs would be greater than a conference room on the river. But that's just something to consider. I'm looking forward to the town hall and seeing what citizens have to say, but it is something to think about as far as office space goes. Thank you.

1:02:22 Cathy Binder: Thank you, Mr. Bueche. Mr. Stonehill. Mr. Clarke since I'm the one who originally fostered this idea, one of the things too is the museums have spoken that they're willing to be the presence at the museum and have it only open on certain days, and Mr. Barrett could talk about that. But especially for the Dahlgren Heritage Museum, they're actually gonna have... And I'm on that board, so they're gonna have a... They've pushed up their monthly meeting date so that they can meet on September 9th to talk about it so that they're prepared for the town hall, and they're gonna have problems with access issues once the bridge comes in. So, it's another place that... Not the best access, but they would have more access and they may be able to display some of the items they have on the base at that location, not what they have in the museum, but things that go outside. And the other thing with that space and I see it as an... It would be an amazing asset for our county, for our school students, and even down the northern neck that they can come and they can have programs there, field trips of all age groups, and this is a way we could give back to the community. But that's... Mr. Baird, did you wanna comment about The Historical Society?

1:03:39 Mr. Baird: Yes, Ma'am and I appreciate having the opportunity to speak just a moment. Kennett Historical Society frankly has not met since March because of the COVID crisis. Many of our members that are older, however, have discussed with a few members the concepts of where we're going. But it was pretty nebulous until this last week as to where it appeared to be going. Conceptually and in reality, I believe the Historical Society is strongly in favor of this approach in having an opportunity to get additional historical artifacts reflecting the county out where people can see them. We believe that having a combined effort of our three historical emphasis together in one place provides more attraction to tourists and school groups and whatnot to come together to learn in our small simple museums we have now. So, we're very, very supportive of the concept.

The one concern I do have, and the language used in the slides was a little strong, is conceptually, I totally believe that we'll do our best to try to support the manning, but until I can go back and talk to our membership to get a total buy-in, it's hard to say that, yes, 100% we'll provide 100% staffing for the museum. I know Ralph Bunche was in a similar position. We wanna do it. We all wanna make sure we can do it. But my goal now, is to get as many people as I can to the open house to get the concept out there and build the enthusiasm that a number of us had. I think it's a great plan.

1:05:16 Cathy Binder: Does anybody have any questions for Mr. Barrett? Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Clark for your presentation. Thank you, Mr. Barrett. Are there any other questions from Mr. Clark? All right, thank you very much. All right, next up is our public hearing. King George County Board of Supervisors will now hold a public hearing that has been properly advertised to receive public input regarding case number 20-06-E02 special exception permit request made by Caroline McGee for a manufactured home in addition to the primary dwelling for occupancy by the lot owner's immediate family for reasons for hardship, owned by Brian L. Or Caroline McGee, Tax Map 33 Parcel 135F, 11.01 acres, zoned A-1 limited agricultural district. I will first ask for the report. I will then open the floor for public comment, and public comment is limited to three minutes per speaker in order to afford everyone an opportunity to speak. Please state your name and address before you comment. Upon completion of public comment, I will bring the matter back to the board for consideration. The board may or may not take action tonight depending on information received during public comment. The floor is yours.

1:06:33 Louis Pancotti: Good evening, Madam Chair, members of the Board of Supervisors, I am Louis Pancotti, a planner and I will be presenting case number 20-06-E02. Next slide, please. This is a special exception request made by Caroline McGee for a manufactured home in addition to the primary dwelling for occupancy of the lot owner's immediate family for reasons for hardship. It is owned by Brian L. Or Caroline McGee. Tax map number 33 parcel 135F, 11.01 acres, zoned A-1 limited agricultural district. Next slide, please. As you can see on this map, made by our GIS department, the parcel outlined in yellow is located at the end of Scott Drive just off of Route 3. Next slide please. Parcel 135F contains 11.01 acres, this property is located along Scott Drive in the Shiloh voting district the additional dwelling unit will utilize the existing driveway and will tie into the existing septic and well systems. Health Department approval has been received. Next slide.

This plan does not propose any impacts for the wetlands. Tax map 33 parcel 135F is currently zoned limited agricultural or A-1. The surrounding properties are also A-1 limited agricultural and mostly used as single-family dwelling lots. The current use of the property is also a single- family dwelling. Next slide. Section 2.3.3, additional use is permitted only by special exception lists the use of a manufactured home in addition to the primary dwelling for the occupancy of a lot owner's immediate family for reasons for hardship as a permitted use by special exception. At the August 4th, 2020 Board of Supervisors meeting, the board voted unanimously to schedule a public hearing for Case Number 20-06-E02 at a board meeting without a recommendation from the Planning Commission.

Community Development staff received the special exception application and site plan from Caroline McGee, applicant, on June 6th, 2020. The application proposes a 66-foot x 16-foot single wide manufactured home that will tie into the existing septic system. The request is made due to a hardship the applicant's mother has encountered from the COVID-19 Pandemic. Next slide. So, included in your packet is a site plan showing the existing dwelling and the additional manufactured home. The proposed location meets all zoning ordinance requirements for a dwelling.

Next slide, please. And also included your packet, the applicants have submitted a letter describing the hardship the applicant's mother has encountered. Next slide. The special exception permit does have six conditions. One, the manufactured home dwelling unit will be used only by Debra P. Coleman, mother of Caroline McGee, as specified in the application case number 20- 06-E02. Number two, that the manufactured home dwelling unit will be removed from the property within 180 days from the date that Debra P. Coleman no longer needs family assistance. Number three, that Brian L. And Caroline McGee shall inform King George County Department of Community Development within 30 days of the date that Debra P. Coleman is no longer in need of family assistance. Next slide. Number four, that the new drain field or modification of the existing drain field will meet all health department requirements outlined in the letter from Steve Valentine dated May 15, 2020. Five, that any amendment to the special exception permit must be granted in conformance with the same legal procedures that are required for the initial issuance of this permit. And number six, that the permit shall be recorded amongst the land records of King George County, Virginia.

Finally, the Department of Community Development Staff recommends that the King George County Board of Supervisors approve case number 20-06-EO2 Special Exception Permit request made by Caroline McGee for a manufactured home in addition to the primary dwelling for occupancy of the lot owner's immediate family for reasons for hardship, owned by Brian L. Or Caroline McGee, tax map 33, parcel 135-F, 11.01 acres zoned A-1, limited agricultural district. I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have and the applicants are here should you have any questions for them.

1:11:00 Cathy Binder: Do we have any questions for Community Development or the applicants? No. Would the applicants like to come up and say anything before we open to public comment?

1:11:19 Debra Coleman: Good evening. I appreciate the opportunity to approach the board and my name is Debra Coleman. I live in Jarrettsville, Maryland, which is about a three hour drive from here. I wanna say, first of all, that I did watch the recording of the August 4th meeting at which my daughter Caroline McGee spoke, and I wanna say that I very much appreciate your concerns, and the way that you accepted her statements. And Madam Chairwoman, also your sharing of the difficulty you had with your father as you tried to navigate him to the end of his life and how hard that is. I had to have surgery in February and had to be out of work. I only work part-time, so I didn't have any pay during that time and was expecting to go back in April, but of course, everything was shut down. I do physical therapy in the home for the aged and because all the hospitals were closed, there was no work, so I kind of went without any work for a couple of months. But my surgery also affected my ability to sustain activity in the job that I do. It's a very physical job being a physical therapist, so those are some of the hardships that I've had this year. But I appreciate your willingness to listen to this and hope that you'll be willing to accept this special exception. Thank you.

1:12:49 Ms. McGee: I just wanted to say thank you for listening to our request, and thank you again Mr. Pancotti for all the work that he's done and your consideration in this request. I also just wanted to mention that we do have our surrounding neighbors, we do have letters from them. They aren't here tonight, but I did receive a couple of texts right before the meeting, and they were hoping for positive vibes to happen, so they all are in support of this. We do have really great relationships with all of them, so I don't think there would any contention with it. But thank you so much for allowing us to speak and we appreciate your consideration.

1:13:40 Cathy Binder: Yeah, I'm gonna get to public comment. Is anybody here in the audience that would like to give public comment at this time? Mr. Dines, is there anyone online?

1:13:50 Chris Dines: No, Madam Chair.

1:13:52 Cathy Binder: Did we have any correspondence from anybody? Nope. All right. Mr. Bush, did you wanna...

1:14:00 Mr. Bueche: I don't think this is gonna be problematic at all. I actually see this thing moving forward, but I'd be remissed if I didn't address something. I understand the zoning and I understand why they had to go through the special exception process. My concerns is that I don't think they should have had to go through this, and I understand it's our zoning ordinances, but for someone to produce a letter describing the hardship of the applicant's mother. 11 acres in a rural area, the permit conditions, I find, to me... And I understand Community Development was doing their job, so this is not a dig at them. This is a dig at our ordinances and the way we... Or the way I see things as going a little overboard. That the manufactured home dwelling will be used only by Debra P. Coleman, to specify who can live in the dwelling on private property, I find problematic. That the manufactured home dwelling will be removed from the property within 180 days that Debra Coleman no longer needs family assistance.

After the applicants have made improvements to the property to be able to host or to have that manufactured home on site and then, they have to remove it, an asset that they have to pay for, that they have to make land improvements for that's on their private property, that's in a wooded area, I find that problematic. It's things like that that I think maybe our zoning ordinances or the way we do things, I think we get involved in things or government gets involved in things that maybe we shouldn't be getting involved in. I think that's a little bit ridiculous. I don't see why... Somebody could put a shed, somebody can put a barn on private property. If they've got a farm, they can't do that. I find that problematic. I think that's just a stretch and maybe a little invasion into private property use. That's all I have to say.

1:16:11 Cathy Binder: Thank you, Mr. Bueche. Mr. Britton, continue.

1:16:15 Mr. Britton: Mr. Bueche, Madam chair, you can strike that condition. That's a condition. The zoning process is by code. So, the law, it's made in Richmond, but that's a condition that's in the special exception, so you have retained this. And the code specifically allows the Board to retain any special exception permits to shorten this onerous process that you described and you can amend and strike. This is the recommendation of staff.

1:16:55 Mr. Bueche: Thank you for that, Mr. Britton. I'd like to move to strike permit conditions one, two, and three.

1:17:01 Mr. Britton: I think, Mr. Bueche, if you made the motion to approve the special exception with those struck, you could make two motions to strike it, but then you'd need another motion to approve the special exception.

1:17:13 Mr. Bueche: Well, I can't speak for my colleague, so I'm not gonna enter in a motion with the strike assumed, so I'm gonna see if the strike would pass first.

1:17:20 Mr. Britton: I see.

1:17:21 Mr. Bueche: If not, ultimately, this special exception, I think, is gonna pass tonight. I would just like to see if I can make it a little more respectful of private property rights and...

1:17:33 Matt Britton: This runs with the land, So these are conditions. The reason that staff recommends that... In defense of the staff, the conditions is this is a financial hardship, so typically, the board has entertained financial hardships less than, let's say, aging or long-term things, because then they can be rectified and then, the thing... The hardship goes away. So, in past history, that has made financial hardships a little bit different than other special exceptions. And so, that's why the board or the staff, correct me if I'm wrong, recommends these say, "Hey, well, when a financial hardship goes away," which hopefully it will, nobody wants it to reign ever for anyone, "then the special exception should go away," because special exceptions, by law, run with the land. However, if it's a property rights issue, that's just a recommended additional burden on the exception. So, if it was struck, then any future homeowner would also be allowed to keep the manufactured home or replace it or take it away.

1:18:41 Mr. Bueche: Yeah.

1:18:42 Matt Britton: I just wanted to make that point, that this... Even though it's a current hardship, it's a financial hardship, which is quite different than, in my experience, the board has generally seen, which is terminal illnesses, long-term illnesses, aging, loss of a parent where they're moving in and you know they're gonna be there and so, we don't put these types of... And then, pull-the-house-down type of a thing, but you can strike it. Sorry if I went on too long.

1:19:10 Mr. Bueche: Well, I appreciate the fact that this was, this and other cases, are addressed on an individual basis. And we look at the merit of the conditions and what the situation is for the property and the surrounding area on a case-by-case basis. Looking at this case and the area that it's in and the size of the parcel, that's why I'm thinking that I would move to strike permit conditions one, two, and three as presented.

1:19:46 Neiman Young: Mr. Bueche, if I may. I think that Matt really does have a strong point about the special exception will run with the life of the land. Madam Chair, if you would entertain, if we could probably have Heather come up and just give us an explanation on why the zoning ordinance is written that way to address those three conditions, just so the board is fully informed prior to making that decision.

1:20:22 Heather Hall: Good evening. I think that there's two different issues here. Currently, our zoning ordinance only allows one dwelling per parcel of land. This reasons for hardship gives people an avenue to get that second home for special conditions, which is exactly what your special exception process is for. Like Mr. Britton mentioned, typically in the past, other special exceptions that are very similar to this are for people at their end-of-life, they need help and so, that once those people vacate the property in some way, shape or form, that mobile home is just that, it's mobile. It can be removed and put back into that state. But special exceptions are just that, they're not a one-size-fits-all. You have to look at the property and the situation. But if you were to strike those conditions, then I think that you should also look at the zoning ordinance and whether or not you want to remove the one dwelling per parcel of land.

1:21:26 Mr. Bueche: Okay. You just brought up something that I didn't understand. You said, "Mobile home." This is manufactured home. Most manufactured homes are put on a foundation. Correct?

1:21:39 Heather Hall: A mobile home and a manufactured home are the same. The way they are built is they are brought in on wheels and they are put, typically, with a skirting around. The wheels are still there, just as they come in and out of a mobile home park, is the same mobility there. There's not a permanent foundation. 1:21:57 Mr. Bueche: 'Cause I've seen some manufactured homes, it doesn't look like a mobile home.

1:22:01 Heather Hall: Correct. And the way that things are built today...

1:22:04 Mr. Bueche: Like they're log cabins.

1:22:06 Heather Hall: Right, but they still come in on wheels. They still have that mobility to come and go. Not as much as, per se, an RV or things of that nature, but just the way that it's built on that frame has the ability to be moved. Does it take some finagling? Yes. Can it be put on a permanent foundation per the building code? Yes. But this is a temporary home for those people with a special exception.

1:22:32 Mr. Bueche: Okay. So, that changes my perspective, 'cause what I was envisioning was the property owners having to make improvements with a drain field and all this stuff and then, putting something on a foundation and then, having to bear the cost of removing it, that's what I found a little more ridiculous. But this, you're saying, is a mobile home.

1:22:54 Heather Hall: Yes. And they are not putting in an additional well or an additional drain field. They are utilizing the ones they have with permission for the allotment.

1:23:03 Mr. Bueche: I withdraw my motion. Thank you. Totally different scenario. Thank you very much.

1:23:09 Heather Hall: Thank you.

1:23:10 Cathy Binder: Mr. Bueche, I can clarify. I had grandparents from both sides that lived in manufactured trailer homes and they were dropped down and decorated and landscaped. You would have never known that they were a manufactured home, but there were wheels there and there was fencing around, but you just wouldn't have... No, tiny houses, correct are also in that because they come in and wheels or...

1:23:33 Heather Hall: Tiny houses are different per the building code, but that's a whole other side...

1:23:36 Cathy Binder: Gotcha, I just asked if... But I know I looked into this when my mom had cancer and we were pushing real hard for my dad and mom to come live with us, we looked into that and it specified it had to be a manufactured home and it could not be like a regular structure.

1:23:51 Heather Hall: More commonly known as a single-wide mobile home.

1:23:55 Cathy Binder: Double-wide and...

1:23:55 Heather Hall: Right, so this is specifically a single wide, that's why the dimensions are also mentioned. They're built beautifully, like you said. Most people don't even know nowadays that they're any different than a stick-built house. The only differences is we know structurally, it can be removed.

1:24:13 Cathy Binder: And in the North and South, they give them different names, so that's also...

1:24:16 Heather Hall: Yes.

1:24:20 Cathy Binder: Ms. Cupka?

1:24:20 Ann Cupka: Thank you, Madam Chair. I just would point out how with the way this process is set up and yes, I fully agree with you, Mr. Bueche, we need to have a thorough review of our ordinances. If we just allow people though to put whatever they want on their property, there really doesn't seem to me then to afford us a mechanism for the Department of Health to make sure that there is adequate access to water and sewer, whether that's a private septic system or tying into our own service authority, so I would caution going too far to relax things without... Because then, we wouldn't have the mechanism to do, to perform this review, to get this letter from Mr. Valentine. Other than that, I drove down there last night. You have very few neighbors. It's behind the old southern states down there on Route Three East and there's just not a lot going on back there. I don't see that this would be a problem at all, so I would fully support it, and thank you very much for coming out and speaking on behalf of your application.

1:25:38 Cathy Binder: Mr. Stonehill?

1:25:43 Mr. Stonehill: I just had a question for Ms. Hall, but you clarified it, just to remind me about why we had to do this, but it was the one parcel, one house. It doesn't to make a difference if it's Ag or not. I had an elderly couple come to me a number of years ago wanting to do a house for their kids because they were getting older and they needed help and they were told no by the previous board or a couple boards ago. But I thought they had said it because it was Ag or it was only 10 acres, or if it was 11, it was different. I was just... I never really got a clear answer. I know they were just told no.

1:26:27 Heather Hall: So, per memory, I believe that this avenue for special exception is only within the agricultural districts and that's specifically because those are typically larger lot size that can accommodate a second dwelling.

1:26:42 Mr. Stonehill: Nothing to do with acreage. I'm just trying to... They were out in the middle of the woods. There were no neighbors anywhere around and it was a very similar situation and they were just outright told no, and they just never pursued it. And I'm just trying to figure out what the difference is.

1:27:00 Heather Hall: We regulate per zoning classification, so, that would be my assumption, but without knowing who or where, I'd be happy to look further into that particular situation.

1:27:10 Mr. Stonehill: Okay, and you answered my other questions. Thank you. 1:27:12 Heather Hall: You're very welcome.

1:27:13 Mr. Britton: Madam Chair, there is one other common thing that comes before the Board in Mr. Stonehill's example, which is a family subdivision request and so, it may not be a special exception request, although that may be a type of... There's two types of ways to amend, one is called a variance, and one is where you actually change the usage and then, one is giving... And we don't change the usage, change the shape or boundary of the property, and then, there's another which is the usage in that special exception. But there's also a family subdivision, which also runs with the land and allows, and I think I've described that before, where it's commonly retained. It makes sense on a rural road, nobody goes down the road, it doesn't impact anybody. But positively, and they say, "You own 20 acres, of course, you can have your mother live there." But sometimes those, when there's a negative impact, go to the planning commission, neighbors do come and it's a smaller lot or it may not be, or there's a negative impact, but it may have been a family subdivision request as opposed to an SEP. We used to get those fairly often as well.

1:28:19 Heather Hall: We still do. This particular property is zoned agricultural A-1, which has a minimum lot size of 10 acres, so a family division would not apply to this property.

1:28:30 Cathy Binder: Thank you, Mr. Britton and they know I'm in favor of it because I understand the position they're in. And in my little notes that I've handwritten, but haven't sent to you yet, I have that's one thing to re-look at this to maybe loosen up our restrictions on some of this stuff. But that's just something our staff can look at, but I'm in support of it.

1:28:56 Heather Hall: Okay. You're welcome.

1:29:02 Mr. Stonehill: All right. I'm making a motion to approve case number 20-06-E02 special exception permit, request made by Carolyn McGee for a manufactured home in addition to the primary dwelling for occupancy by the lot owner's immediate family for reasons of hardship, owned by Brian L. Or Carolyn McGee tax map 33 parcel 135F 11.01 acres, zoned A-1 limited agricultural district.

1:29:37 Mr. Bueche: Second.

1:29:38 Cathy Binder: Any discussion? All those in favor?

1:29:41 All: Aye.

1:29:43 Cathy Binder: Any nays? Chair votes aye. Congratulations, enjoy your time together.

1:29:47 Ms. McGee: Thank you.

1:29:51 Cathy Binder: All right. Next up is action item, county administration request to procure architectural services.

1:29:57 Neiman Young: Thank you, Madam Chair. On August 18, 2020, the Board of Supervisors was given a presentation detail into recreation and advisory committees. Recommendations for the use of Rosslyn Road property. During the briefing, the county identified a need for architectural services to design a facility and develop an estimate of the cost to renovate the facility. Considering this, the board directed the county administrator to retain a firm to provide these services. We solicited a firm, so we received a proposal from John J. Berger, an architect who has done previous work with the county engineer's office. Mr. Berger proposes to perform the architecture work for a fee of not to exceed $5,000. And keeping with state code, the TAC to include its members who represent the hotel industry and other travel- related fields, has been consulted prior to making his funding requests. I'd like to recommend that the Board of Supervisors appropriate $5,000 from the tourism fund to retain architectural services for the Rosslyn Road property and authorize the county administrator to execute a contract with John J. Berger subject to the county attorney's approval.

1:30:56 Mr. Bueche: So moved.

1:30:58 Cathy Binder: Do we have a second?

1:31:00 Mr. Granger: Second.

1:31:00 Cathy Binder: Any discussion? All those in favor, say aye.

1:31:02 All: Aye.

1:31:07 Cathy Binder: Any nays? Chair votes aye. Motion carries. Discussion item Harry Nice bridge pier.

1:31:11 Neiman Young: Yes, madam chair, this was added to the agenda at the chairman's request. I'm sure that many of the members of the board are fully aware that there is an interest from some members of the board regarding requesting that the Governor of Virginia and the Governor of Maryland retain a portion of the Harry Nice bridge that's gonna be destroyed on the King George County side of the river and allow the county to utilize that asset as a pier and a tourist attraction. I was gonna turn it over to the chair and basically get a consensus from the board, if they wanted us to move forward with seeking that correspondence or what direction the board would like for the staff to take.

1:31:53 Cathy Binder: Thank you, Dr. Young. I'm gonna go down the line 'cause we all have different opinions on it. Mr. Stonehill?

1:32:04 Mr. Stonehill: My opinion is to go ahead and let's get some information from Maryland and see if that's something that's even feasible. I've done a lot of looking into different piers and bridges, and it seems almost every old bridge that I have come across in all the different states, it's been kept for a fishing pier. And with COVID and everything, there are people constantly all day long coming and saying, "Hey, where is there a place to fish?" And just recently, I had four people come and they came all the way down from Front Royal the other day looking for a place to go fishing, and they came to Wayside and to just to find Wayside was closed. They did not go to our website, but they had gone to other travel websites or Yelp, and they said that was a definite place to go fish and that it was still open.

Maryland has done this a couple of times, and it seems like Governor Hogan... I sent you all an article about the last bridge that they did and the folks that I have talked to in the two different states so far, they were all very enthusiastic about the idea. So, I would like to get Dr. Young and staff to get a letter going to Governor Hogan and just find out if he has any interest in doing this at all. And if they don't, well, we don't have to have any more conversations about it. And if they do, well, obviously, there's a lot of logistics that need to be worked out, and we can move forward then from there. But without Hogan's interest, there's no point of me even going forward.

1:33:46 Cathy Binder: Thank you, Ms. Cupka.

1:33:48 Ann Cupka: Thank you, Madam Chair. I agree with Mr. Stonehill. Let's send a letter, see what Maryland thinks about it, if they're willing to consider it or not. We did mention it to Captain Copeland when we met with him. He would be interested in learning more about it. He said he fished himself growing up in Florida, I guess, and said that, sure, there might be some security issues that we would need to look at, but he agreed with what we suggested to him at the time was, "Let's send this letter to Maryland and that way, nobody's wasting time doing studies and we're not having our county attorney doing a bunch of research into different agreements in this, that and the other thing. If it's no, if it's a hard no upfront, we're good, we're done."

1:34:50 Cathy Binder: Mr. Bueche.

1:34:53 Mr. Bueche: First off, I love the idea, but I do have concerns. One would be, I know other localities have done this, especially in Maryland. But our scenario would be a little different because we would be Virginia with a Maryland asset. Can a state deed an asset to another state, or moreover, an individual locality within that state? So, that would be a legal question that I would probably wanna get answered before we even sent a letter to the Governor. I'd like to know if this is even legally possible. Aside from that, if it was possible, we would have to figure in, "What is our plan?" We were talking about maintenance earlier this evening. This would be a tremendous asset that would cost a lot of money to maintain.

So, even if we got it, it's not just like we get a concrete, two-lane fishing pier and it's cut off at the end. We're gonna have to engage on aids to navigation, so this is gonna be a ATON issue, so you're gonna have to put lights, you're gonna have to put buffers out around this thing. That's gonna happen so a boat doesn't run into it, or a barge, depending how far out this thing's gonna go. We're gonna have to maintain the integrity of the structure throughout its life and then, whenever it does eventually either degrade or the county 30, 40 years from now gets rid of it, there's gonna be a cost that's now our burden to demolish it at that point.

So, these are things that I would like to consider before we just said, "Hey, we want a fishing pier." Do I love the idea? Absolutely. I even had delusions of grandeur that maybe we can contact the navy and they can get something out of moth balls and bring it out there and put it at the end of this pier like a museum, like you see at the navy yard. We got a huge navy base. That's something that I would love to see, but I would need to get these... I'd like to get some figures on what is this gonna cost us, not only initially, but down the road and which is eventually gonna become a recurring maintenance cost. And then, on top of that, I'd like to find out if it's even legally possible for this state-to-state transaction to take place. That's all I have.

1:37:37 Cathy Binder: Mr. Britton.

1:37:38 Mr. Britton: I don't know the precise... But, years ago, we did litigate all the way to the Supreme Court and I was involved on the issue of the use of the waters and so, it was extremely interesting because we argued the 1685 letter from George Washington regarding the Potomac Compact, that's what it came down to. And I was litigated because we, and Fairfax, had use of the waters and Maryland was saying that we had to get permits for our wastewater treatment discharge into the water, and that we had to buy the permit, and that we had to meet their affluent levels. And we contested that under the 1685 Compact, which says that while Maryland owns the waters, Virginia has the use of the waters. I previously spoke some months ago with the chairman about this, and I think it will be a complex issue. I doubt that the sovereign state of Maryland will be deeding any of their land. It may require even a state border adjustment. But that isn't, I don't think, the end of the inquiry.

There's long-term leases, there is maintenance agreements, and have you. What would happen would be, we would need to get authority... If the governor is interested in doing it, we would need to get authority from the attorney general on how to do that in the state of Maryland and the commonwealth of Virginia, on accepting it. There needs to be public hearings regarding that. Then, we would typically enter into a maintenance agreement like we would for any wastewater discharge poured or intake for the use of the water, taking the water in. There would be patrolling and law enforcement issues as Mr. Stonehill is well aware. We would probably enter into what's called an inter-jurisdictional mutual aid agreement where we cross deputize because I doubt that Maryland is gonna wanna run over on a boat from the other side every single time there's a fight. There is a permitting issue and Maryland currently takes the position, Mr. Stonehill is actually an expert in this so he can correct me, that when you're in the waters of Maryland, you need to get Maryland fishing permits.

And Now, that may be saltwater, and you may not have to, I'm not sure. There would definitely be environmental issues that typically Maryland will require a bond or an indemnity for the decay of the bridge, don't know what it's made of. There would be what they call decommissioning or dismantling bond, which will need to be put up for the life of it. There will be typically a liability insurance coverage or indemnity provision, and then, they'll have the maritime and structure issues, which will go along... Mr. Bush has talked about the maritime addressing boat collisions and underwater collisions. And then, there'll probably be lighting issues. So, those are the things that are the complexities, but from a legal standpoint, I don't see any impediment to doing it effectively, like the Hong Kong 99-year lease.

But I doubt that there will be any deeding based on the litigation that we were involved in that went to the United States Supreme Court on the use alone of the waters because Maryland is gonna get paid to do it, and they're gonna wanna permit anything that they can. And I think that if they were to deed something into the water, it would actually change the boundaries of Virginia and the boundaries of the state of Maryland, so I doubt you're gonna get an opinion from the attorney general that that's okay. So you'd probably be talking about a deeding issue, but I don't see anything that stands in the way of getting the preliminary issue that Mr. Stonehill brought up, which is, are you interested in doing it or not? I think we can find a way to do it. It just may be easy, but it may be something you don't wanna get into. But we definitely... If Maryland wants to leave a part of that bridge there, we can find a way to do it.

1:41:42 Cathy Binder: Mr. Granger?

1:41:43 Mr. Granger: I guess what my question's gonna be would be the... What would we be asking Governor Hogan, in particular? Are we asking him, "Are you just willing to leave a piece of the... " Is this just a probe asking, "Is this something you'd be willing to entertain?" Are we actually saying, "We would like you to leave this in place, and we'd like to start this process?" What are we really asking here?

1:42:07 Cathy Binder: That was one of my concerns 'cause I don't wanna go ask for things if we're not really entertaining to go through the whole process and so, what letter Mr. Stonehill and Ms. Cupka?

1:42:18 Mr. Stonehill: I could just answer a couple of those questions. It's not something I don't think that King George or the State of Virginia is gonna end up with a fishing pier. It clearly belongs to Maryland. As Mr. Britton said they're not going to give that up and it would be almost impossible to get that done. There's a bridge there right now. Virginia uses it people go back and forth and there's two other cases in Maryland where Maryland said, "Yeah, let's do this." They have a great fishing pier. It's a big draw for those areas. One's in a State Park. It's gonna help them out as much it is gonna help King George out. Look at Wayside Park right now everybody that's at Wayside Park comes from Maryland.

Maryland doesn't have a fishing pier, so anywhere on the Potomac River that somebody wants to now go fishing, they're gonna have to come across their new bridge, pay their toll to come to our county here in King George to go fishing on a pier which belongs to Maryland and it sticks out into Maryland waters. So, it's gonna benefit them just as much as it's gonna benefit anybody because there's no place on the Maryland side to go fishing either. You can't go to Aqualand. You can't go to a Lower Sea or Bar. There's nowhere that on the Maryland shoreline that their people can go fishing. So, like I said, it would be a win-win situation for both states. ATON stuff, the bridge is not marked right now at all. There's no mark, just the center span in the main channel. There's no markings, there's no light, there's no reflectors, there's no anything, so I don't know why they would have to go ahead and put anything else on it right now.

1:44:08 Mr. Bueche: Because it's gonna be dead end so it's gonna be jutting out into an navigable waterway. The bridge is a continuous structure with a ship channel that goes through it. This is gonna be dead end so now it's actually an obstruction in a navigable waterway. That's why they would have ATON on there. I could tell you that from experience.

1:44:31 Mr. Stonehill: Then, for commercial fishing gear poundage and all that stuff, they're not marked. There's an area that's on a chart that shows where the locations could be, but obviously, there would be lights on it anyways if you're going to go fishing at night or reflectors. But I don't really think that's a huge deal. Enforcement, the Potomac River Compact between the two states, it's enforceable by Maryland DNR or the Virginia Marine Police, which is the law enforcement arm of Virginia Marine Resources Commission. So, they can obviously go and take care of any type of enforcement issues, or the King George Sheriff's Office, sign an agreement with Charles County and get back into their MOU about law on both sides of the river.

I know that they're looking into that right now, Mr. Britton, I think in reference to Fairview Beach, so I think the enforcement problem, obviously, there's gonna be people there, it'll be a little bit busier, but I don't think that's a major setback at all. But like I said before, I think for both states and obviously, for us, it would be a huge draw and huge benefit and like I said, Maryland doesn't have a place to go fish and they can't do one on their side, so I would just... Like I said before, you write a letter and just say, "Hey, what do you think about doing something like the Bill Burton State Park or this other bridge?" And just see what their interest is. I've talked to people over at Potomac River Fisheries and Virginia Marine Resources and they all said, "That's a great idea if you can make it happen."

1:46:18 Cathy Binder: Ms. Cupka, do you have some... I have quite a few questions.

1:46:21 Ann Cupka: I agree with Mr. Stonehill. To offer this here would provide recreational water access for the purposes of fishing which we lost when we lost the chunk of Wayside Park that we did and I apologize for saying this, but the Rosslyn Road Property is not an adequate substitute in my mind for that recreational access to the river. This could provide or alleviate some of that and also keep in mind, keep some of the traffic over here away from that neighborhood down Rosslyn Road because we know they don't want that traffic down there. So, I would just ask you to consider that and look at the big picture here as well. Thank you.

1:47:25 Cathy Binder: Thank you. I have a big picture on it, too, one is, my concern is we've stated that it's Maryland's water, Maryland's bridge, Maryland does the fishing permits, what does it give King George? If we have to pay to maintain it and pay to upkeep it and pay, pay, pay, but Maryland gets everything from it. That's one of my concerns and that would be something we would have to address with the governors of both states. Another question and Mr. Clark put it up, there was a plan in 1984 when we acquired Wayside Park through the Federal Parks to Land Program and they had an elaborate, that I didn't even know existed, plan and Mr. Britton, this is a question I have for you, when we have the ability to develop that park after the bridge is built, could we not build the structure ourselves as a fishing pier jutting off of Wayside Park? Saying the issue is probably... I'm just asking that question.

1:48:24 Mr. Britton: That would be a corollary to what use of the Potomac waters means. Typically piers, however, a floating pier, we got argument based on piers that have a foundation or are drilled into the earth, probably not, because I don't think that we could make the argument use of the waters includes sinking pilings. However a floating pier, probably, but I think based on the litigation that I was involved in with the other counties that... That would be a semi- permanent intrusion into the sovereignty, probably, as opposed to drawing out water or putting in effluent, but I don't know. But I seriously doubt you'd be able to drill into their land.

1:49:14 Mr. Bueche: What about private piers 'cause there's private piers that jut out into the Potomac?

1:49:19 Mr. Britton: Yes. Oh yes, and they're permitted, and that's exactly right. And they're permitted, and they're permitted by Maryland.

1:49:26 Mr. Bueche: Okay, so those private piers aren't even assessed for tax purposes on the property in King George.

1:49:35 Mr. Britton: I don't know the answer to that.

1:49:37 Mr. Bueche: If it's permitted through Maryland and it's in Maryland, then that can't be considered an improvement on a property for King George tax purposes.

1:49:50 Mr. Britton: I agree with your argument. I do not know how they... What makes sense doesn't always follow the tax rules and regulations, but I just simply don't know that. I know how it works, but they are permitted and that is exactly the issue that Maryland was requiring us to permit. And of course, when they lost the case, they lost everything 'cause once the Supreme Court says you don't need any permit, you stop paying for it. But that would be an issue of whether it's the use of the water. But yes, those piers are permitted in Maryland. And I assume Mr. Stonehill could tell you. I don't know if you're standing on the end of your own Maryland- permitted pier and fishing. I don't know what permit you need, but probably something from Maryland.

1:50:35 Cathy Binder: Right. That is one question I had. Another question is, we haven't fully broached. I know you guys have... Or Ms. Cupka and Mr. Stonehill actually talked to the commander, and we'll be talking to... Mr. Bush and I will be talking tomorrow to him and say, I like the idea. But my only is still going back to security and how do we get people effectively over the new bridge to be able to access it safely and the security concerns from the base with all those people that are possibly milling about in that area that puts them a little closer to the base and being able to go around the fence on the shoreline. These are just concerns that I would have about the bridge and the cost of it, of maintaining it. I did look up a couple of bridges in Florida that they did do this with and in the end, they regretted their decision because the upkeep and the price to maintain the old bridge became quite expensive and the locality had to shoulder that. And now, they're stuck with a bridge that costs them quite a bit of money to maintain.

Those are my concerns, but I have a suggestion for a letter and I don't know if this is possible. If we sent a letter to Governor Hogan, telling him, "This is an idea we were pursuing, but an idea of pursuing not a 100% we're gonna do this. And what are your requirements? Would you even be willing to entertain it?" But making it known that we're not a 100% behind this and committing ourselves to something.

1:52:04 Mr. Granger: I would be amenable to that. I just don't wanna give them the impression that... I just don't have enough information to know whether this would make sense. And so, I don't wanna go to Maryland or Governor Hogan and say, "Hey, this is something we wanna do." Like Ms. Binder said, what I'd really like to understand is, "Are you willing to consider it? If you are, what are your expectations for us in this relationship? What would we be required to do, so we could assess it accurately?" And if that's what we're really looking at, then we can ask. But that's the information I need.

1:52:38 Cathy Binder: Mr. Bueche?

1:52:39 Mr. Bueche: Thank you. Going back to initially, what I said at first, I love the idea. If we can find a way to pay for it, I'm all for sending a letter and seeing if Maryland would even entertain this. But I would wanna engage not only, "What would we have to do to appease Maryland?" "What would Maryland allow or what would be permissible for us to do to be able to plan for long-term maintenance, things of that nature." 'Cause if it's just, "Here you go. Now it's your liability?" with all those unknowns, I can't jump on that, especially with the infrastructure needs we already have in the county. I can't obligate something to that. Now, I like the idea. I like maybe even going a little further and enhancing this beyond a fishing pier, eventually, if that's things Maryland would allow us to do. But I'm not for maintaining a fishing pier where licenses are purchased to go into the purse of Maryland, where we're restricted in enforcement on it, that we have to operate within the bounds of an MOU with Charles County. I wanna make sure it's a win-win and that we get a return on our investment.

So, even if we get this bridge for free, let's say it's just, "Hey. Yeah, you can use it or you can keep it and you can access it from King George," if we have to take on another fiscal responsibility or a liability, then I really don't see a return on investment. So, I'm for sending the letter, but I'd like to know not only what do we need to do, what would they allow for us to do. If those things could be addressed, I say, go for it.

1:54:30 Cathy Binder: And how much they'll give us of it, how much of the span?

1:54:37 Mr. Bueche: I just don't wanna lock into it. You know what I'm saying?

1:54:43 Mr. Stonehill: I hear you, and I know we're short on cash. I don't think that Maryland's gonna say, "Here's a bridge and that you need to upkeep it." It belongs to them. And I think if we have to do anything, maybe trash or parking or something on our side of the bridge. But like I said, the bridge belongs to Maryland, but they're not gonna give it to us. I don't think we can do any maintenance. It's not gonna cost us to do any maintenance on a bridge that belongs to Maryland. So, I'm thinking that if Maryland wants to do something like this, they're gonna shoulder the cost of that and it's gonna bring people across the bridge. It's gonna bring people into Dahlgren. It's gonna bring people to the gas stations. People are gonna buy more cigarettes. They're gonna buy our cheap gas. They're gonna go to Walmart to go get fishing supplies. You can talk about tourism and there are people that...

The big... The bridges down in Florida and stuff, obviously, we're not Florida, but there are people that they plug up all the hotels, they have fishing tournaments, they have everything there. It's a huge draw for those. Yeah, we have a little bit of an issue because of jurisdictional boundaries. But I really think this is just an idea and if Maryland is interested in it, I think they're gonna shoulder the weight on it and shoulder any type of maintenance. I just think it's a draw and it just happens that you have to come to King George to get onto their bridge. 1:56:14 Mr. Bueche: I hear what you're saying, but that bridge goes across to Maryland, too. They could very well leave the span on their side and just make it a Charles County asset instead of having to deal with jurisdictions across the river.

1:56:30 Mr. Stonehill: The only problem there is that you're about 100 feet off the water right there, where you're 12 feet off the water on our side.

1:56:37 Mr. Bueche: It depends how long they wanna make this pier. So again, I'm willing to at least send a letter, but to me, really the key is to make sure that we're not just committing anything right now. I think it might be a little optimistic to think that Maryland will just foot the bill for maintenance.

1:56:54 Cathy Binder: I agree with that.

1:56:56 Mr. Granger: I think that we can ask.

1:56:58 Mr. Bueche: We can ask them out to dinner, we're just not proposing.

1:57:00 Mr. Granger: But I would like to understand what their responsibilities would be and what they would expect our responsibilities to be.

1:57:05 Cathy Binder: That's a fair way to put it.

1:57:08 Mr. Granger: So yes, I'm in favor of a letter that would go down that route, saying...

What are you... Are you willing to consider this? If you are, can you please help us understand what you are willing to do and what you would expect the State of Virginia to do and what you would expect the locality of King George to do, just so we can better understand, so we can make an informed decision.

1:57:30 Mr. Bueche: And what would you allow us to do?

1:57:32 Mr. Granger: Yeah, and what we would be allowed to do?

1:57:32 Cathy Binder: Dr. Young, did you wanna... Mr. Britton, does that sound like a fair letter? Sound like a...

1:57:38 Mr. Britton: We're just discussing details.

1:57:40 Cathy Binder: Okay, are you guys amenable?

1:57:43 Annie Cupka: So...

1:57:43 Cathy Binder: Oh, sorry.

1:57:44 Ann Cupka: Just to be clear, our correspondence to Maryland, the Governor of Maryland and Virginia, particularly Maryland would be that we are exploring the possibility and that no funding has been committed to the project. This is in the preliminary exploratory stages only and that is all we were looking for here tonight.

1:58:08 Cathy Binder: Right, we're just trying to... And I've said this before, I don't wanna send a letter and they think right away we're committed to it. This is in exploring and just saying that we're interested, what do we have to do? What are the parameters? Mr. Granger said it better than I did there, but...

1:58:26 Ann Cupka: Sure, but there's no sense in having more discussions. I know Mr. Stonehill has talked to a bunch of folks. We talked to the base commander. Let's just send the letter and then, if we get a no, we're done and we just move on.

1:58:41 Cathy Binder: That's fine.

1:58:42 Ann Cupka: And we're all willing to do that, so we're just looking for a letter.

1:58:44 Cathy Binder: Right, I know. It was a discussion item? We had a discussion and I appreciate Ms. Cupka and Mr. Stonehill bringing it because it is a tourism opportunity, and there are a lot of people that like to fish in King George and Maryland. Heck, when I was crossing over the river this weekend at the Bay Bridge, there was a lot of people on the jetty there fishing and they were all... Lots of people there fishing, so it is an interest, especially in COVID. A lot of people revived interest in doing outdoor activities. So, we have a consensus to send a letter then. Dr. Young, thank you very much for bringing it to our attention. Next up is our county administrator's report.

1:59:22 Neiman Young: Madam Chair, originally, I didn't have a report for tonight's meeting, but I've been giving a lot of thought to our initial conversation regarding maintenance in courthouses and everything like that. I first wanted to apologize for my confusion, understanding at first, Mr. Granger's question and then, not understanding Ms. Cupka's question, so basically trying to wrap my head around the direction that the board wants to go. So, please forgive me for confusion on that. And I also gave some more thought about you all discussing regarding preventative maintenance, and I always operated under the belief that if my board doesn't know what our staff is doing, then that's my fault and that means that we're not doing enough reporting. And I really like your idea, Madam Chair, about maintaining some type of report that comes to the board, having a discussion about what we're doing to take care of our facilities.

And my most immediate thought is, thanks to Ms. Cupka and Ms. Binder, you all that asked that general properties and the rest of our departments actually maintain a report monthly with the rest of our departments. And I was trying to wrap my head around what that report would look like. Well, I can't think of a better platform to use than actually have a formal preventive maintenance portion on the General Properties report and they can tell the board exactly what they've done throughout the month to take care of the facilities. So I'll be having a discussion with the General Properties director that we maintained in the board report monthly. And then we can assure that everybody has a shared understanding of the efforts that's being taken to make sure that we are protecting our assets in King George County. Other than that, that concludes my report, Madam Chair.

2:01:12 Cathy Binder: Thank you, Dr. Young, I would like to get a motion for adjournment, but one thing I would like to say is, we have a list of people on our boards and commissions we need to fill, including myself, so let's make an effort to see if we can find to fill the terms on our boards that we have vacancies for. And with that, can I have a motion for adjournment?

2:01:34 Mr. Granger: I move to adjourn until Thursday, September 3rd at 6:30 PM in the boardroom.

2:01:41 Mr. Bueche: Second.

2:01:42 Cathy Binder: Any other discussion? All those in favor?

2:01:44 All: Aye.

2:01:45 Cathy Binder: Chair votes aye, motion carries.