House of Commons Home Affairs Committee
Hillsborough Independent Panel Report
Oral and written evidence
16 October 2012 South Yorkshire Police; Hillsborough Justice Campaign; Hillsborough Families Support Group
Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 16 October 2012
HC 622-i Published on 14 February 2013 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £6.00
The Home Affairs Committee
The Home Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Home Office and its associated public bodies.
Current membership Rt Hon Keith Vaz MP (Labour, Leicester East) (Chair) Nicola Blackwood MP (Conservative, Oxford West and Abingdon) James Clappison MP (Conservative, Hertsmere) Michael Ellis MP (Conservative, Northampton North) Lorraine Fullbrook MP (Conservative, South Ribble) Dr Julian Huppert MP (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge) Steve McCabe MP (Labour, Birmingham Selly Oak) Bridget Phillipson MP (Labour, Houghton and Sunderland South) Mark Reckless MP (Conservative, Rochester and Strood) Chris Ruane MP (Labour, Vale of Clwyd) Mr David Winnick MP (Labour, Walsall North)
The following Members were also members of the Committee during the parliament.
Rt Hon Alun Michael MP (Labour & Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth) Karl Turner MP (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Powers The Committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk.
Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/homeaffairscom.
Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Tom Healey (Clerk), Richard Benwell (Second Clerk), Ruth Davis (Committee Specialist), Eleanor Scarnell (Inquiry Manager), Andrew Boyd (Senior Committee Assistant), Iwona Hankin (Committee Assistant), and Alex Paterson (Select Committee Media Officer).
Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Home Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 3276; the Committee’s email address is [email protected].
List of witnesses
Tuesday 16 October 2012 Page
Chief Constable David Crompton and Detective Chief Inspector Philip Etheridge, South Yorkshire Police Ev 1
Sheila Coleman, Hillsborough Justice Campaign Ev10
Rt Hon Lord Falconer of Thoroton QC, Margaret Aspinall, Jenni Hicks and Trevor Hicks, Hillsborough Families Support Group Ev 11
List of written evidence
Page
Correspondence between Rt Hon Theresa May MP, Home Secretary, and the Chair of the Committee Ev 16
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Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 1
Oral evidence
Taken before the Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday 16 October 2012
Members present: Keith Vaz (Chair)
Nicola Blackwood Bridget Phillipson Steve McCabe Mark Reckless Alun Michael Mr David Winnick ______
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Chief Constable David Crompton, South Yorkshire Police, and Detective Chief Inspector Philip Etheridge, South Yorkshire Police, gave evidence.
Q1 Chair: Can I call the Committee to order and Q3 Chair: We realise and we accept that you were welcome our witness today, the Chief Constable of not there during those times—you served in other South Yorkshire? Could I refer all those present to the police forces—but you were very clear when you Register of Members’ Interests where the interests of spoke to Newsnight on the day of the report. You said all members of the Committee are noted. Are there this, “My position is very simple and straightforward, any other interests that need to be declared? which is that if people have broken the law then they Alun Michael: I should declare as an interest that I will be prosecuted.” Do you stand by that statement? am intending to stand as a candidate for the Police Chief Constable Crompton: Absolutely, yes. In one and Crime Commissioner elections on 15 November sense it is not a revelation for any police officer to say in relation to South Wales. that if somebody has broken the law, they should be Chair: Thank you very much, Mr Michael. As this is prosecuted, and I absolutely stand by what I said. Mr Michael’s last meeting as a member of the Select Committee, on behalf of the Committee could I also Q4 Chair: Presumably you have looked at the report thank him very much for all the work that he has done in great detail and you have been following this whole on the Home Affairs Select Committee and the Justice issue from the time that you were appointed Chief Select Committee, and wish him well in his election? Constable. I know it was very recently, but clearly I move now to the subject matter of today’s inquiry. when you took over you knew that the Panel was This is not a new inquiry into Hillsborough; this is for meeting. Do you have any idea as to how many people the Committee to be updated on progress since the may be responsible and may have to be prosecuted? Independent Panel’s report. I am most grateful to you, Chief Constable Crompton: That is an impossible Chief Constable, for coming here today to give question to answer at this stage, Chairman. I am sure evidence. Would you like to put on the record your Committee members will be aware that this matter views of the Independent Panel’s report? When you was referred to the IPCC not just by me but by other first read it, what was your reaction? police forces as well. The IPCC made a lengthy press Chief Constable Crompton: My reaction, Chairman, statement on Friday where they made clear in quite was shock. I read that as the head of an organisation some detail the issues that they were going to look at. that had been held very much to blame over the years, That process has been set in motion. I am on the and also, once the Panel’s report came out, that was record on several occasions having said that I will co- all brought together in one comprehensive document. operate in any way at all I can to assist the IPCC I was shocked. It was a very difficult day. I made that with their endeavours, which will probably be lengthy very clear to the media on the day. It has remained a and complex. difficult experience since then, and it will continue to be a difficult experience for quite some time. Q5 Chair: That is the process that this Committee wishes to follow from now on. We would like to see Q2 Chair: What is morale like in the South regular updates as to what is happening with regard Yorkshire police force at the moment? to these matters. Do you accept the findings of the Chief Constable Crompton: People are feeling a little report that 164 statements have been altered by senior beleaguered. In fairness, the minority of the force officers in the South Yorkshire Police? Do you accept were even serving at the time of Hillsborough, and what the report said on that? not all of the people who are currently in the force Chief Constable Crompton: Yes. and who were around then were at Hillsborough in any way, shape or form. Inevitably when you get an Q6 Chair: You do. Is it right that there are now 195 organisation that becomes the focus of lots of negative serving officers in South Yorkshire who were on duty media attention then it is difficult for people. So, yes, on the ground on the day of the Hillsborough tragedy, people are going around with slightly heavy hearts, or is that figure too high or too low? We are just but these are serious issues. interested in the facts. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_o001_th_121016 HC 622-i Hillsborough FINAL.xml
Ev 2 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence
16 October 2012 Chief Constable David Crompton and Detective Chief Inspector Philip Etheridge
Chief Constable Crompton: My understanding was to send to the IPCC those cases you have described that the figure was nearer 100 and that we currently as being people who may need to be prosecuted? Are have about 200 officers who are serving in the force you going through this person by person, file by file, who were in the force at that time, but not necessarily and who is doing this, bearing in mind the resources at Hillsborough. My understanding was that the figure that you have? You are talking about 1,000 police was lower than that. officers, either serving or former police officers, so how is that process being put together? Q7 Chair: Let us get the figures right; 100 currently Chief Constable Crompton: So far the IPCC have serving South Yorkshire police officers were at the only asked us for details of officers who are either ground on the day in question? currently serving, who were there, and of retired Chief Constable Crompton: Yes. I don’t know if it is officers, and those who may no longer be around exactly 100, but a figure around about that. Some of because they have died. In terms of trying to complete those officers were on duty right from the outset, other their records, we are in the process of supplying that officers—once things had gone wrong—were drafted information. As far as detailing which particular in to try to deal with the aftermath, and that led to the members of staff or officers or former officers should sorts of numbers that you just referred to. be looked at for which particular offences, I have to be clear and say we are not doing that. Q8 Chair: When I wrote to you, in your reply to me you referred to an “alleged cover-up”. You will recall Q13 Chair: You are not doing this? your letter to me just after the report was published. Chief Constable Crompton: Let me explain, please. Do you still believe it was an alleged cover-up rather Prior to the referral process I talked through at length than anything more? Why have you added the word with the IPCC about what might be the best long-term “alleged” before cover-up, when the Independent objective in doing this. I came to the view, and it was Panel is quite clear that the statements were altered? supported in the end by the IPCC, that the less South Chief Constable Crompton: That might well have Yorkshire Police has to do with any referral process, been the old habits of a police officer coming out. given the general context we are working in, the better Things are alleged ultimately until they are proved in the long-run for the inquiry. Let me elaborate just from that perspective, and although there is very a little bit more. As I said, my concern is to assist the significant information and detail in the report, we are IPCC as much as possible. The issue for me was less now involved in a process that will either ultimately about whom we might refer but whom we might prove or not whether there was a cover-up. I don’t decide not to refer, and at some later stage it would mean it to sound disrespectful to anybody; it was probably have been highly likely that someone would merely a technical detail. have said, “Well, we really don’t agree with your reasons for not referring these people.” Q9 Chair: You accept what the panel report has said, Chair: Yes. So you are not doing that process? that there was a cover-up and that statements were Chief Constable Crompton: No. altered? Chief Constable Crompton: I definitely accept that Q14 Chair: What are you doing, just giving the the statements were altered, yes. names and address and the files and leaving it up to them? Q10 Chair: Taking us through the process now, the Chief Constable Crompton: Yes, because I still have IPCC are conducting their own very detailed inquiry. a team who are very familiar with the archive and all You know you have 100 police officers who are of the material that has been supplied by the force, I currently serving. Do you know how many former have said that we will provide the IPCC with any police officers who were employed by South Yorkshire you have on your files whom you may need material that by one means or another they feel is to consider? relevant but for whatever reason they might not have Chief Constable Crompton: Considerably more than had so far. 100, Mr Chairman. Q15 Chair: So you will hand over a list of names of Q11 Chair: Do you know how many? the serving officers and the former officers who were Chief Constable Crompton: If I said 600 or 700, that there on the day, but you will take no part in assessing would be in the region. People are aware if they have whether or not they were culpable for anything on that read the report that in the region of 1,000 police day, is that right? officers were on duty at the game on the day. They Chief Constable Crompton: That is right, and I think were not all South Yorkshire police officers, although that is the best way of going about it. the vast majority were. Just to give you a general figure for people to work with, there are several Q16 Chair: How long will that process take? hundred retired officers who may come within the Chief Constable Crompton: We can complete that ambit of this inquiry. process quite quickly. Chair: What does that mean? Q12 Chair: That is very helpful. Thank you very Chief Constable Crompton: Within a week. much for trying to be specific on that. If we could look at the process, what exactly are you doing? We Q17 Chair: Within a week of today you can give know there is an IPCC inquiry. 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Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 3
16 October 2012 Chief Constable David Crompton and Detective Chief Inspector Philip Etheridge
Chief Constable Crompton: Certainly the vast example, a very clear one would be how police majority anyway. officers are trained to deal with and control football matches. That has changed out of all recognition over Q18 Chair: When do you think you can give them the last 23 years. It is not new learning, but it is the complete list? learning that stems from the original Hillsborough Chief Constable Crompton: Probably in a week, but disaster. if I said a fortnight, that would be reasonable. Chair: Two weeks from today you would have done Q24 Mr Winnick: Just one final question, if I may. your work and handed it to the IPCC? You were not there at the time and in no way Chief Constable Crompton: Yes. responsible—no one is suggesting you were—but can you explain the sickness in mind of very senior police Q19 Chair: One final question from me. You know officers at the time who wanted to say the that today the Attorney General has announced that he responsibility for the tragedy was drunken people, is going to apply to the High Court for fresh inquests. hooligans, thugs and the rest of it? What sort of Presumably you fully support that decision? sickness could have occurred in the minds of those Chief Constable Crompton: Yes. The families wrote police officers who wanted to put the blame on totally to me two or three weeks ago and I wrote back and innocent people? made it very clear that we would not oppose any Chief Constable Crompton: I cannot answer your request to reopen the inquests. I asked the families to question because I cannot speculate what was going proceed on that basis so that it did not introduce either through people’s minds. It was wrong, and in the any extra difficulties or costs into the system. immediate aftermath of the disaster people did and Chair: Thank you. said things that were wrong.
Q20 Mr Winnick: Can I just go back for a moment, Q25 Mr Winnick: Wrong and sick, would you Chief Constable? You said you accept the Panel’s accept? findings. Do you do so without any qualifications Chief Constable Crompton: Yes. whatsoever? Mr Winnick: Thank you. Chief Constable Crompton: Yes. Q26 Chair: You have made an apology, have you Q21 Mr Winnick: Thank you. The Chair also not, on behalf of the South Yorkshire Police to all referred to the 116 of 164 statements identified for those concerned? substantive amendments that were amended to remove Chief Constable Crompton: Chairman, yes. On the or alter comments unfavourable to the police. As far day of the release I made an apology to the families as the police are concerned, is that not one of the most and the Liverpool supporters, and I will take this serious aspects of this matter? opportunity of repeating both the apology and how Chief Constable Crompton: It is. It has dominated the sorry we are for what went on that day and also things commentary ever since 12 September when the report that went on subsequently. came out. It is a very serious issue that needs to be Chair: Thank you. I am going to suspend the resolved. Committee for 10 minutes. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. Q22 Mr Winnick: Chief Constable, would this not On resuming— mean that since this terrible tragedy occurred in April 1989, the feelings of the relatives and the local Q27 Steve McCabe: Mr Crompton, given what we community as a whole in their criticism of the police have heard about the very large number of statements have been absolutely justified? that were altered, are there currently any national Chief Constable Crompton: Yes, I would agree. standards or guidance on the taking and handling of evidence from police officers in situations where the Q23 Mr Winnick: Apart from the fact of what has police force itself may be accused of negligence or happened regarding the alteration of documents, wrong doing? which is a very serious criticism of the police, what Chief Constable Crompton: The short answer is no, are the main lessons that the police force of which there is no national guidance in those circumstances. you are Chief Constable should learn from this? There is guidance about how officers take statements Chief Constable Crompton: One is around the general in different circumstances, but not in the size of pulling together all of the documents that were circumstances that you describe. required as part of this inquiry. The Hillsborough Independent Panel made a recommendation that there Q28 Steve McCabe: Do you think there is a need for should be some move to establish an archive in the some kind of national set of standards now? It seems early stages after any large disasters. I would support to be one of the central features of this case that it that in the sense that it has taken a lot of time and was possible to deliberately distort what had effort to try to locate many documents that have not happened. This was all about the evidence that was always been that easy to locate over the last 23 years. being provided by officers. It appears it was to protect So in terms of some of the administration that lies their own force at all costs. behind this, there are some lessons to learn. As far as Chief Constable Crompton: In my opinion, no, there the operation of the force is concerned, some of the does not need to be a national standard. This was a main issues have been dealt with over time. For unique event, and I do not feel it is necessary to go to cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_o001_th_121016 HC 622-i Hillsborough FINAL.xml
Ev 4 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence
16 October 2012 Chief Constable David Crompton and Detective Chief Inspector Philip Etheridge the effort of creating a national standard for a one-off Q32 Mark Reckless: It appears certain politicians event. It just needs to be recognised as a unique event were involved in promulgating quite uncritically the and dealt with. South Yorkshire Police line at the time. Sir Irvine Patnick has apologised for his role in that. Do you Q29 Steve McCabe: Can I just ask you one last thing think that something like that could still happen today on that, then? In the absence of any national standards, or is there a better and perhaps more independent how can the rest of us share your confidence that the relationship between police and politicians now? absolute distortion of evidence by police officers in Chief Constable Crompton: It is a more independent circumstances like this is a one-off event? relationship, but if I were to sit here and say that could Chief Constable Crompton: If we were able to take not possibly happen today, I am not sure that would ourselves back to 1989, there was no IPCC; there was be a wise thing to do. While there might be a different the Police Complaints Authority, who had much more relationship and times have moved on, I would not limited powers than the IPCC. As things stand now, say it is impossible. all police forces have regular meetings with the IPCC irrespective of whether any serious incidents Q33 Chair: I have been approached by a immediately prompt that meeting. So there is a parliamentary colleague who is a constituency MP for constant overview of what is going on in the force. one of the police officers who was on duty on the day Any serious incidents of anything like the magnitude of the Hillsborough tragedy. He has informed me that of Hillsborough would immediately invite the IPCC this young police officer, because of what he was to be involved with much greater powers than used to made to do by senior officers, has been totally exist with the Police Complaints Authority. Hopefully traumatised by the experience. There were a number it would never happen, but should anything like this of very young officers there who had never happen again, the sense of overview and scrutiny that experienced this before. What support and help is would be brought to bear in the future would be of being given by South Yorkshire to these young police a completely different magnitude to what was there officers—obviously 23 years ago—who may still be in 1989. in the force and who may have been affected by this Steve McCabe: Thank you. terrible tragedy as well? What I have said to you, is that the first time you have heard of that issue? Chief Constable Crompton: No, it is not the first time. Q30 Chair: Your colleague, Richard Wells, who was In fairness, there is certainly more than one officer Chief Constable between 1990 and 1998, talked about who has found life difficult and traumatic ever since a culture of defensiveness and excessive secrecy at the the Hillsborough disaster. Support has been there time in the British Police force. Today, of course, you throughout, whether that be via the Police Federation would say this was totally different, that you have to themselves or whether it be via the force Occupational judge those circumstances at the time, and that the Health Unit and Welfare and so on. Support is there, culture has altered dramatically; or has it? but clearly there will always be some people who find Chief Constable Crompton: The culture is different. it more difficult than others to deal with a tragedy. However, there is an issue about trust that comes out of Hillsborough. I have said this locally in relation to Q34 Chair: Finally on Hillsborough, before we turn South Yorkshire in that it probably prompts us to look to grooming, when will there be closure for South again at how we do our business and not necessarily Yorkshire Police force? Will it be when somebody just accept that time, culture and so on has moved on. ends up going before the courts for what they have We should look to try to open the police service up a done wrong, being charged, prosecuted and little bit more to external influence and scrutiny. It is convicted? Because you talked about prosecution in not necessarily something that we just stand still with; that Newsnight interview that you did on the day of things have moved on since the late 1980s and the the publication of the Panel; is that what represents 1990s, but that does not mean that we are in a perfect closure for South Yorkshire, or if not, what does? place even now. Chief Constable Crompton: If it is shown from the inquiry that people have broken the law and they are Q31 Chair: One of the issues is police forces prosecuted, that may represent closure. But it is not investigating neighbouring police forces. In the case possible to say that there is one unique thing that will of Hillsborough it was not quite neighbouring, but the represent closure for the different people who are West Midlands Police force assisting Lord Justice involved in the Hillsborough disaster. For example, if Taylor did the investigation into South Yorkshire. A I was a member of one of the families who had lost whole series of reports said everything was okay, someone I am not sure whether closure would ever when in fact it was not. They were not just let down be possible. If I was an officer who was there and by the police—in a sense, the whole of the traumatised, likewise I might find it very difficult to establishment with this succession of reports from the get over it. What you describe could be one element Taylor report to the Independent Panel, absolved those of it, but I don’t think it is the only element. responsible. Does it disappoint you that this has happened? Q35 Chair: In respect of your colleague in West Chief Constable Crompton: Absolutely. Had things Yorkshire, are you quite happy with the way matters been different would we be sat here talking like this are proceeding on that? He has been referred to the now? I suspect not. So yes, it does. IPCC, and he has announced his retirement. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_o001_th_121016 HC 622-i Hillsborough FINAL.xml
Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 5
16 October 2012 Chief Constable David Crompton and Detective Chief Inspector Philip Etheridge
Chief Constable Crompton: It is a matter for the West At that time there were only three people dedicated to Yorkshire Police Authority and Sir Norman. It is it in the force. There are now significantly more than entirely separate from South Yorkshire. that; we have eight. It was written within the report that it contributed towards some of the difficulties that Q36 Chair: Thank you. The Committee will be had spanned the number of years prior to that. coming back to you from time to time to monitor this situation. Select Committee has never had an inquiry Q40 Chair: As you say, this surfaced in articles into Hillsborough and there is no point in having written by Andrew Norfolk in The Times. Have you another inquiry into what happened, but we are very ordered a review as to why so few people were concerned about the process that goes on from here. prosecuted? According to the information we have we With your co-operation we will be kept informed and are talking about large-scale grooming operations we will keep Parliament informed. lasting at least 10 years involving hundreds of victims Mr Crompton: I am happy to co-operate. and thousands of offences each year, but in the end Chair: Thank you. only eight people were prosecuted. I understand that this happened before you arrived, but you are the Q37 Nicola Blackwood: I just wanted to ask one Chief Constable now. When you saw what was being question about what your policy is going to be in said in newspapers, which seem to have uncovered terms of co-operating with the IPCC investigation. more than anyone else, did you institute a review as One of the ongoing problems that has come before to why this has not taken place? this Committee is public confidence in IPCC Chief Constable Crompton: As a result of knowing investigations, and in particular the fact that the IPCC that I was coming here we are looking again at what cannot compel officers to give interviews where they the process was over several years. It is important to have been involved in a death or a serious injury, recognise that the situation the force is in now is very except in cases where a criminal or misconduct different to the one that pertained a few years ago. offence is suspected. Are you going to grant the IPCC Not only do we have more dedicated resources, we interviews or not, in this case, given the high level of have a number of ongoing inquiries, of which of public concern and the history associated with this course it would not be right for me to give details. case? However, things have certainly moved on and the Chief Constable Crompton: The short answer is that extra resource has given us the opportunity to go after even if I was to grant an interview, I cannot force the offenders to a greater degree than was probably somebody to say something if they are unwilling to available to us a number of years ago, although we do so. have had one or two notable successes. What is Nicola Blackwood: No, but even if somebody said, quoted in the newspaper as intelligence that the police “No comment,” that still acts as evidence in cases, as were aware of, we were aware of some of that; the you know from your own experience. question then is whether you have the ability to turn Chief Constable Crompton: In truth, it is the first time it has been raised with me. I will take that one away the intelligence into evidence in order to get to a and talk it through with the IPCC who I am in regular prosecution, and that can be very problematic, as I dialogue with. know this Committee has heard before. Some of the Nicola Blackwood: Okay; thank you. intelligence was with other agencies and did not necessarily come to the police, so it is not all quite as Q38 Chair: That is very helpful; thank you very it looks on paper, but I acknowledge we did not have much. Chief Constable, we are now going to turn to enough resource devoted to this. our other inquiry that we were already conducting into grooming of children. This is an on-going inquiry, and Q41 Chair: We take the resources point, but let me I know that you would like DCI Etheridge to join you give you an example. I would like you to bear with at the dais. We do not normally do this in the middle me on this because it sums up the problem in South of hearings, but as he is here, that would be very Yorkshire. “A Risky Business intelligence report for helpful. South Yorkshire Police in March 2008 linked three Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: Thank you. members of a family to 61 girls. Of those 61 girls, 43 were said to be ex-girlfriends of one or more family Q39 Chair: As you know, the Committee is members and 13 were said to have been raped, conducting an extensive inquiry into child grooming, sexually assaulted or threatened by one or more and South Yorkshire features very heavily in this. members of this family. In March 2008, a Social What surprises me and others is the fact that we have Services initial assessment record noted that in had so few prosecutions by South Yorkshire of those February of that year a 12-year old girl was found in who are the perpetrators of grooming. Why is that? a blue Peugeot with a member of this family who was Chief Constable Crompton: If you look at the articles then aged 22. The car was stopped on Fitzwilliam that were in The Times newspaper in which this Road, Rotherham. In the car was a bottle of vodka. surfaced, one of the issues that was highlighted was Both the 22-year-old and the girl were arrested on an internal report in 2010 that identified and suspicion of car theft. Indecent photographs of the girl recognised that, given the intelligence and the feeling were found by police on the man’s mobile phone. He that was coming from other agencies about the level was not charged with any offence.” It is clear that of potential offending, we simply did not have South Yorkshire knows who this family are, but not a sufficient resource devoted to this particular activity. single member of this family has been charged. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_o001_th_121016 HC 622-i Hillsborough FINAL.xml
Ev 6 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence
16 October 2012 Chief Constable David Crompton and Detective Chief Inspector Philip Etheridge
When this kind of information gets to a Select dealing with victims over the years, and this is not Committee, I would imagine it is with the South just police forces but other agencies as well, there has Yorkshire Police, and although I accept your view been a journey in terms of the learning around child about resources, this is a situation now where you sexual exploitation that has gone on over some time. know who these people are, presumably, or are you I know the much-publicised investigation that you are saying this is now stopped in Rotherham or South talking about. If you go back 10 or 15 years, victims Yorkshire, and this is not happening any more? were not dealt with in the same way. Chief Constable Crompton: Let me be clear. I am not saying that at all, no. Although I recognise what you Q44 Chair: The Met Police have decided to do this just said, my understanding is that not all of that in the Savile case, but you are not putting in the information was within police possession and the bits resources necessary when you find a 22-year old man that were not capable of being translated into a and a 12-year old girl in a car with a bottle of vodka. criminal case, because while the girls would be I am not a police officer, but it is pretty serious, is disclosing to the staff at Risky Business, that was not it not? translating through into disclosures in evidence to the Chief Constable Crompton: Yes, it is serious. police. So even though it reads absolutely horrifically, Chair: But nobody was prosecuted. and as a father and parent I don’t deny that for a Chief Constable Crompton: Nobody was prosecuted, second, when it comes down to translating that but my understanding is that there were no disclosures intelligence, dreadful as it is, into a case, that has by the victims. Whether we could get to that a number proved very problematic over the years. of years later is highly problematic. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is highly problematic. Q42 Chair: It cannot be that we just did not have enough police officers to deal with it and the unit was Q45 Bridget Phillipson: Chief Constable, I note too small. It must be more than that to those who are what you say, that the situation now is very different, the victims. and I sincerely hope that is the case. It is true that the Chief Constable Crompton: My understanding is it is challenges the police face are reflected more broadly more than that, yes. There is a resource issue, but over in society around the culture of disbelief that victims and above that ultimately you have to have the can often face. What are you doing within the force confidence of the victim who will then make the to tackle that culture that often stops victims, both disclosure and put that into evidence in a form that child and adult, from feeling they will be believed will stand up in court. That is a problematic area and, when they come forward to make a disclosure? again, I know the Committee have heard about this Chief Constable Crompton: I am very grateful you before. I am not falling back on the resource issue but have asked that. We have training for every single it is an issue about how the victims are dealt with. officer in the force now, specifically in relation to Nowadays, we would deal with the victims in a child sexual exploitation. For more senior detectives slightly more sophisticated way, and even if we were who might be in charge of those investigations, we unable to get to a prosecution, which is the gold have upgraded training and a different training standard, we now have alternative means that perhaps package. Over and above that, some of our officers we never used to pursue where we can link up with now have a programme of going around schools, the licensing authority of the local authority or go for because one of the fundamentals in all of this is that different offences rather than necessarily the obvious we need to equip young girls—because primarily but one that seems to present itself. not exclusively it is about young girls—with the knowledge and the skills and the awareness to Q43 Chair: Because what surprised me is in the recognise how they can get drawn into some of this, recent cases of sex abuse. The Metropolitan Police so that they can spot that at an earlier stage. We have have announced yesterday the BBC are having an moved an awful long way over the last 10 years. The inquiry, the Met Police have put in a lot of resources. short answer to your question is that every operational Why can this not be done for ordinary victims in officer in the force has had training in relation to child South Yorkshire, the kind of resource that goes into, sexual exploitation, and more senior people and those for example—? people who work in specialised units have additional Chief Constable Crompton: Can I just say, Chairman, training as well. that is where we are now? We have some dedicated resources, and we also— Q46 Bridge Phillipson: Is it not important that we Chair: You are telling us you have eight people. It challenge the attitude that has existed, not just in this has gone up from three to eight. case but more broadly, that young women who are 13, Chief Constable Crompton: I was about to elaborate 14, 15, who we imagine are capable of giving consent on that. We have eight people who do nothing but this, to having sexual relationships with older men, but but we have about another 50 who are broadly those young women are legally not in a position to involved in child protection and so on. Child give consent? protection is a wider issue than just child sexual Chief Constable Crompton: Absolutely, I could not exploitation, and where we get jobs that start to agree more. Just to add to that, something that we and develop then we can bring specially trained staff into a number of other forces have done is we are now that. We have in excess of 60 staff involved or significant users of what we call “abduction notices”. potentially involved in this, in the force. The point I It does not have directly any legal standing, but it is was just going to go back to was that our methods of a notice that we give to somebody who has a cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_o001_th_121016 HC 622-i Hillsborough FINAL.xml
Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 7
16 October 2012 Chief Constable David Crompton and Detective Chief Inspector Philip Etheridge youngster with them in circumstances that are Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: We currently suspicious, making it clear that they have no right to have two live investigations in South Yorkshire, but have that youngster in their possession. That then can again it would be unfair of me to— be quoted back in court proceedings and also used in evidence against them later. Q52 Chair: The trouble for us in this inquiry is that week after week we see in newspapers, especially in Q47 Bridget Phillipson: In terms of the case the The Times, all this information and you are telling this Chair referred to, where, for example, you would find Committee that nobody has been prosecuted for child someone in possession of indecent images but you had exploitation in South Yorkshire in 2012. DCI? a victim perhaps unwilling to give evidence against Chief Constable Crompton: Chairman, perhaps can the perpetrator, can you foresee victimless I help? prosecutions in those cases? Chair: Can I just ask the DCI, since he is the lead? Chief Constable Crompton: If the images were truly Chief Constable Crompton: Yes. indecent, then my understanding is yes. Without Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: That is correct, getting into a different debate, in that particular but if you go back— instance the Chairman referred to I am not convinced that they were indecent images, but nevertheless my Q53 Chair: Isn’t that an embarrassment? answer to your question is yes. Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: No; if you go Bridget Phillipson: Thank you. back through the years, Mr Chairman, we have had successes. In 2008, we had eight nominals from Q48 Chair: DCI Etheridge, you are the lead on child Rotherham convicted at court. In 2010, we have an sexual exploitation. Do you really need training to example here where a Slovakian girl was prosecuted know that there is something wrong if there is a 22- that was brought into this country for the purpose of year-old man in a car with a 12-year-old girl and a sexual exploitation. bottle of vodka and indecent photographs of the girl on the man’s mobile phone? Q54 Chair: So you can tell us one example in 2010? Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: No, I do think Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: Yes, I can. police officers do have that awareness generally, Mr Chairman, but the training that the Chief expressed Q55 Chair: Thank you. One final question from me: there gives officers awareness of all of the issues that is the ethnic origin of the perpetrators a factor in the are there, not just the fact that there is a child with a police deciding whether or not to prosecute people? Is 22-year-old. The question that arises from that is the there any question that you will not prosecute because training allows officers to not only protect the child someone appears to be from a particular ethnic origin? but look for evidence. You mentioned about the Chief Constable Crompton: No, Chairman, it is not a evidence being on the phone—this training is being factor at all. I know that there might be popular rolled out to all frontline officers and all detectives opinion that that is not the case, but if you look over and we are learning from that. a number of years at the sorts of very similar child sexual exploitation cases that there have been in the Q49 Chair: The trouble is maybe people are county, then it does create a profile that people spending too much time at seminars and not enough would understand. time catching the people responsible. I know we are not police officers and not trained to deal with this Q56 Chair: But it is an issue, is it not? situation, but it is quite obvious when things are not Chief Constable Crompton: People think it is an quite right. It is an instinct thing, is it not? Those issue, and therefore we have to recognise that is an figures I gave you, three members of a family linked issue. to 61 girls: have you not heard of this case before? Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: I have, yes. Q57 Chair: Do you think it is an issue? Chair: So you know about it and you know the family Chief Constable Crompton: Not in the way that you that I am referring to? have put it to us. Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: I do, yes. Q58 Mr Winnick: Can I just say, Chief Constable Q50 Chair: But none have been prosecuted? and to your colleague, that the illustration that the Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: They have not, Chair gave of the child in the car with an adult and but there have been successes within Rotherham for vodka does not persuade me, and I doubt if any other prosecutions for child sexual exploitation in 2008. member of this Committee is so persuaded. I am rather shocked, I must say. Chief Constable, would it Q51 Chair: How many did you successfully be possible for us to have further information prosecute this year? following this session of the Committee over what Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: For child occurred, because I think it is a rather serious issue? sexual exploitations? Chief Constable Crompton: Absolutely, yes. Chair: Yes, in South Yorkshire. Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: For this type of Q59 Nicola Blackwood: One of the reasons it is offence we have not prosecuted anyone this year at frustrating is that there are significant numbers of this stage. successful prosecutions going on in other places. The Chair: You have not prosecuted anybody? figures that emerged in The Times article were cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_o001_th_121016 HC 622-i Hillsborough FINAL.xml
Ev 8 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence
16 October 2012 Chief Constable David Crompton and Detective Chief Inspector Philip Etheridge significant, and when matched against the number of are separate counsellors as opposed to the social prosecutions we are hearing about they just seem to workers who work for the local authority. be disproportionate. Even when you lay that against the resources argument, it does not really seem to add Q66 Nicola Blackwood: Okay, and what about up. In terms of disclosures, there is a very good reason NHS? why a lot of these young girls do not tend to be Chief Constable Crompton: Yes, health. comfortable disclosing to police. They are in fear of disclosing to the police because they are in thrall to Q67 Nicola Blackwood: What about the voluntary the men who have groomed them for so long, but they sector? may well be disclosing to other agencies. Those other Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: There is some agencies may not be trained up in how to present the engagement at the co-located site with the voluntary evidence that they have gathered as evidence that can sector, yes. be used, which is why other areas in the country have worked on building up co-located units that can work Q68 Nicola Blackwood: Some engagement? together and develop trusted working practices so that Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: Yes, although that intelligence can be gathered to form evidence in they are co-located they are there temporarily, if that order to work on prosecutions. This has worked makes sense. effectively in a number of other places in the country. Chief Constable Crompton: They are not there every Is that what is happening now in Rotherham? Is there day of the week. some hope for some of these girls who are trapped in Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: That is right. this situation, or is there no hope for them yet? Nicola Blackwood: Okay. Chief Constable Crompton: Absolutely there is hope, and in direct answer to the question that you have Q69 Mark Reckless: I have a few questions. Can posed, we have co-located units in Rotherham, in you clarify, please, this confidential 2010 report by the Sheffield, in Doncaster and, in the very near future, Police Intelligence Bureau warning that thousands of Barnsley. such crimes were committed in the county each year. What does that refer to? Q60 Nicola Blackwood: When were these set up? Chief Constable Crompton: I need to clear this up, Chief Constable Crompton: About a year ago. because there was a piece of work done around that report that looked at the vulnerability and risk factors Q61 Nicola Blackwood: Why have there been no around youngsters across the whole of South prosecutions coming out of these units as there have Yorkshire. Those sorts of risk factors would be in other places? missing from home, poor school attendance, truancy, Chief Constable Crompton: In fairness, given the sort problems with drink, problems with drugs, and you of time lag that you have before you get to a result at could name a number of others. When you then court, setting the units up a year ago is not necessarily combine that with age profiles what you get is a total sufficient time to start to see significant results coming number of potential victims. What has gone on within out of the court process at the other end. that report is a process of extrapolation where you are looking historically at how many offences might be Q62 Nicola Blackwood: How many arrests have associated with a victim, and then hypothetically you been associated with the units? can come up with a number. That is not the real Chief Constable Crompton: I could not tell you that. number, but hypothetically that is the number that went into the report. Q63 Nicola Blackwood: Could you write to us with that information? Q70 Mark Reckless: Giving unfair perceptions suggesting you are prosecuting very small numbers? Chief Constable Crompton: Yes, I can absolutely do Chief Constable Crompton: It does give an over- that.1 exaggerated perception of what the risk is and the number of offences involved, but I am not trying to Q64 Nicola Blackwood: Okay, and what is the minimise the seriousness of the situation at all. make-up of the co-located units? They have police officers involved, because you said eight police Q71 Mark Reckless: Have we not heard that there officers are involved in these units. were 61 alleged victims just from one family? Chief Constable Crompton: Distributed around the Chief Constable Crompton: Yes. The question is to force; social workers, counsellors— what degree that information was capable of being converted into evidence by the police at the time. Q65 Nicola Blackwood: Are those social workers? Chief Constable Crompton: I am not sure whether Q72 Mark Reckless: In light of newly disclosed they wear two hats, but certainly in some cases they material, are you proposing further legal action 1 Committee note: The Chief Constable wrote to the currently? Committee on 14 November 2012. That letter was accepted Chief Constable Crompton: If it is possible, then that as written evidence in the Committee’s Localised child is fine. At the moment the co-located units that we grooming inquiry (LCG 18) and will be published on the Committee’s website and printed with the Committee’s have are dealing with live investigations as opposed report. to historic investigations. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_o001_th_121016 HC 622-i Hillsborough FINAL.xml
Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 9
16 October 2012 Chief Constable David Crompton and Detective Chief Inspector Philip Etheridge
Q73 Mark Reckless: You answered in the negative not usual, and you don’t need forensic training to when the Chair asked you whether ethnicity was a know that there is something wrong. So, Mr factor in your decision not to prosecute in these cases. Etheridge, we would like you to write to us in a Chief Constable Crompton: Absolutely. month’s time setting out what has been done by South Yorkshire to try to get a grip of this subject and I Q74 Mark Reckless: Is it not a decision of the hope, Mr Crompton—it is up to you to decide this, Crown Prosecution Service whether or not to this Committee cannot ask you to hold a review—that prosecute? you should really be looking very seriously at this Chief Constable Crompton: Yes. In terms of the issue and perhaps having a review of what has police decision to arrest and process and determine happened. You have a lot on your plate with investigations it has no influence whatsoever, but Hillsborough and with these other issues as well as ultimately a decision to prosecute would be the CPS’s, routine policing which you also have to do—we you are correct. appreciate that—but this is in the public domain, and the Committee is very concerned and the public is Q75 Mark Reckless: But you, as the police, are very concerned. happy with the number of prosecutions rather than Chief Constable Crompton: We do treat it seriously, being critical of the CPS on that front? Chair. Chief Constable Crompton: The CPS have a difficult Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: Can I just add job. They have an absolute standard of proof that they very quickly, Chair, when you said it is co-location have to take into court. If a case cannot be brought to has worked in South Yorkshire, it—? meet that standard of proof, then I have sympathy for Chair: Sorry, can you speak up. them; they are in a difficult situation, because they Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: Sorry, I do can only give one answer. apologise. Co-location has worked within South Yorkshire working with other partners. With the live Q76 Mark Reckless: Is that not only one part of the investigations that were undertaken, we do have, or test? Do they not also have to judge whether it is in we are beginning to get, the confidence of the girls the public interest, and is there not some suggestion that have been affected by these crimes that are that issues of race and diversity are getting caught up ongoing. That is working. I don’t have those results in that public interest test? here and now for you, because these are live Chief Constable Crompton: I am not aware that that investigations. We have engaged with CPS at an early is the case in South Yorkshire. stage in these live investigations to find the best way Mark Reckless: Thank you. to obtain evidence from them, and potentially victimless prosecutions. These are all steps that we Q77 Chair: Mr Crompton and Mr Etheridge, I had have taken since 2010. You are right, I don’t have hoped when you came to give evidence on grooming those results for here and now, but I will write to you. that you would come to this Committee with some Chair: Thank you. fresh information. I must say I am very disappointed, because I don’t think South Yorkshire has a grip on Q78 Mark Reckless: Rather than just engaging with this very difficult subject. I am very surprised that the CPS at arm’s length, why not put someone from nobody has been prosecuted this year, DCI Etheridge, the CPS in those co-located units? and I am very surprised that you have not initiated an Detective Chief Inspector Etheridge: That would be inquiry into all these very serious allegations about easier said than done. I accept what you are trying the number of victims that are involved. We to achieve there, but you are asking me to provide appreciate the number of officers has increased information about— enormously. We also appreciate you were not the Chief Constable at the time. However, this is an issue Q79 Chair: Tell us who is the problem and we will for the police, and the Committee’s message is that write to them, because Mr Reckless has a good we do need to get a grip of the situation in South suggestion that we need to follow up. Mr Crompton, Yorkshire so that the information that comes before if you did what you are doing on Hillsborough and you needs to be processed and people need to be the aftermath to Hillsborough in respect to a child prosecuted if they have committed a crime. In this grooming I think the Committee would be satisfied. particular case that I have mentioned, this family are We are not satisfied at the moment. We hope that you presumably still wandering around the streets of will deal with some of these points urgently, but we Rotherham with these very serious allegations about are most grateful to you for coming today, both of the number of girls who are connected to them. It is you. Thank you very much. Thank you. cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01
Ev 10 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence
Examination of Witness
Witness: Sheila Coleman, Representative of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign, gave evidence.
Q80 Chair: Mrs Coleman, thank you very much. trying to move things forward. We are aware, it is Thank you for sitting patiently. I am afraid we had a very complex, and 23 years on many families have vote, as you know, and we were dealing with two suffered ill-health, have died, there is a natural inquiries. May I begin on behalf of the whole progression where people are weary but still feeling Committee in again passing on all our condolences they have to fight on all fronts, and if there is a way for all those involved as victims of what happened at where all the strands could be brought together to give Hillsborough. Twenty three years may have passed, true transparency and accountability then the but of course it does not take away the pain of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign would welcome that. way in which you will have to deal with this very sad issue. Q84 Chair: But you are happy to see those officers We have some specific questions. We will be taking who are currently serving for South Yorkshire evidence from the Hillsborough Family Support continuing to serve in their jobs, in their posts, and Group after you. In particular, I am sure that you you are happy at the process, but you are concerned would welcome the decision taken today by the about the timing? This concerns me. Attorney General to apply for a fresh inquest. Is this Sheila Coleman: We would not say we were happy, something that you welcome? but for years Hillsborough families and survivors have Sheila Coleman: Yes. I am speaking on behalf of the been powerless in this procedure and some of us are families and survivors in the Hillsborough Justice now quite shocked to hear the number of officers who Campaign and also Anne Williams, who represents are still serving in South Yorkshire Police who were herself in these matters but is ill. Yes, we welcome it, involved on the day of the disaster. So, no, we are not we have long campaigned for the inquest verdict to happy, but we have learned to accommodate be quashed. In fact, we were party to the judicial situations, because we have been hard-pushed to move review in 1993 where we brought evidence that things forward. In respect of South Yorkshire Police, indicated that some of the deceased could have in particular, the survivors in our campaign feel very survived and also that statements had been altered. aggrieved at how they have been excluded over the Yesterday was a welcome move forward. years in terms of access, and I would like to say to the Committee that any pressure you could bring to Q81 Chair: You have heard the evidence of David bear in respect of including survivors in any process Crompton and what South Yorkshire is doing? for the future would be greatly welcomed. They are Sheila Coleman: Yes. the people who have been vilified in terms of the statements being altered, and so on. Q82 Chair: Is there anything else that you want South Yorkshire to do, apart from what he has just Q85 Chair: So, at the moment, who is keeping you said? Obviously, they have just told us they don’t want informed? We know all this is happening, because we to be involved in investigating themselves again. They watch television and read the newspapers and we go are limited to writing to the IPCC, giving them the list online, but who is writing to you saying, “By the way, of serving officers, and giving them the list of former this is happening now”? How is that process officers. Is there more that you want from South happening? Yorkshire, other than what you have heard today? Sheila Coleman: The IPCC wrote to the families via Sheila Coleman: We were heartened that he said that the Bishop of Liverpool, who is the Chair of the Panel, he did not want any more hands-on involvement in in respect of this meeting today, I discovered it from terms of South Yorkshire Police. That is another step a Tweet of yours and that was how we came to be forward. We would just seek clarity in terms of the IPCC investigation and the DPP investigation that here today from the Hillsborough Justice Campaign. there is nobody involved who has previously been We subsequently contacted MPs, and Maria Eagle involved in investigating any aspect of the gave us the procedure and we then contacted you. So, Hillsborough disaster. it is not an ideal situation, and that is something we would ask of this Committee: that you assist us in Q83 Chair: I am a bit confused, because there are a making sure that for the future processes all families lot of these investigations going on. We have had this have equal access to information and the consultation shocking report that you have waited so long for. I process, because at the present time that is not get the impression there are a lot of organisations and happening. different parts of Government doing different things and I worry that they are not co-ordinated enough. Q86 Chair: Did you call for the resignation of You are chasing the IPCC, you are chasing South Norman Bettison? Yorkshire, you are chasing the DPP, and you are Sheila Coleman: We called for him to be sacked. asking Government to do certain things; do you think there is a way that this myriad of different follow-up Q87 Chair: Right. Is that still your position? regimes should be brought together? Sheila Coleman: Yes. At the very least we believe Sheila Coleman: Yes, I think a public inquiry would West Yorkshire Police should suspend him, given the resolve some of those issues. Clearly, what is comments of the IPCC, and in fact given the happening now is what families have been doing comments of West Yorkshire Police in reporting him independently for years in terms of running around to the IPCC. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_o001_th_121016 HC 622-i Hillsborough FINAL.xml
Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 11
16 October 2012 Sheila Coleman
Chair: Thank you very much for coming to give to. We would also like to know precisely what is evidence to us today. It has been extremely helpful. happening in terms of what the campaign is doing. We will bear in mind what you have said about access Thank you for coming. to information and we will ensure that you are kept Sheila Coleman: Thank you very much. informed of everything that this Committee does. We Chair: Could I now call to the dais Margaret Aspinall, have a website, but not everyone has access to Trevor Hicks, Jenni Hicks, and Lord Falconer. websites, so we will make sure that you are written
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Margaret Aspinall, Trevor Hicks and Jenni Hicks, Hillsborough Family Support Group, and Rt Hon Lord Falconer of Thoroton QC, gave evidence.
Q88 Chair: Mr Hicks, Mrs Hicks, Ms Aspinall and Margaret Aspinall: I think it was a combination of Lord Falconer, thank you very much for coming to everything, I always thought Hillsborough was a give evidence to us today. Can I declare an interest? I cover-up from the very top to the bottom. We always have served as Parliamentary Private Secretary to felt, as families, that everything we went forward with Lord Falconer when he was the Solicitor General they always gave us the impression that they were when the last Government was in existence. slightly opening the door but they did not. They I would like to start with a question to you, Mr Hicks. always slammed the door in our face because what we Can you describe very briefly your reaction to the wanted to put forward as evidence we were not independent report when it was published? Did you allowed to. When we had the private prosecution, also feel that there was vindication? Did you feel it was when you had the generic inquest, witnesses were closure? Did you feel that it just underlined everything chosen; we had no part to play in that. Witnesses were that you have been saying in the past? chosen, and when we put certain questions forward to Trevor Hicks: Three questions there, Chair. Yes, we Mr Popper, we never got the answers to them. They felt vindicated. As you will appreciate, we have been did not give us the answers. Even though we were, accused of lots of things, made scapegoats and all the also at that time, saying to him, “You have to go rest of it. Yes, we felt vindicated. We were very beyond the 3.15 cut-off time” he was having none of shocked. We thought we knew most of the it, and there was nothing we could do about it. information and the depravity—if I could use that That happened not with just the generic inquest, but word—of what had gone on in South Yorkshire everything that we went forward to. As you know, we Police, and obviously what we were really shocked have had the private prosecutions, we have had about was the medical evidence, which of course has judicial reviews, we have also had the scrutiny, which not been accessible to us before. We considered that was absolutely appalling, and every time we wanted the previous inquest process was severely flawed, and to put something forward they stopped us from doing obviously today is very relevant. We probably need to it. What made it worse for all of us at that time, was deal with those in turn and I will try to do it quickly. that Mr Stuart-Smith kept saying to us, “You need We represent around 68 of the bereaved families. We new evidence,” and yet all that evidence has been have been actively involved, we hear what Sheila there all those years but we knew that at the time. says, and again we were speaking to the DPP yesterday. We are in London for two days doing Q90 Chair: Mrs Hicks, does it surprise you to know exactly what is what. So, to answer your question, we the number of serving police officers that are still at were shocked, we felt vindicated, and we feel that this South Yorkshire Police? There was a figure of 100 is only the beginning of closure. given by David Crompton. Do any of you wish to comment on this; were you surprised at that number? Q89 Chair: I should have begun by, again, passing Jenni Hicks: Yes. on the condolences of this Committee to all of you for Margaret Aspinall: Yes. Go on Jenni, would you like the loss of your children. Mr Hicks, your daughter to answer on that? died at age 19, your other daughter, Victoria, died Jenni Hicks: No, that is all right, you answer. when she was only 15, and Mrs Aspinall, your son James died when he was only 18 years of age. We Q91 Chair: Are you satisfied with the proposal of cannot even begin to feel what you feel at this moment what both his and South Yorkshire’s involvement is even though it was so long ago. It is a terrible tragedy going to be? They will get the list together, and they and you have our sympathy and our admiration for will send the list to the IPCC. what you have done. Trevor Hicks: I need to declare an interest. I have a Mrs Aspinall, when you looked at all the various business in West Yorkshire, so Norman Bettison is my reports, going all the way back to Lord Justice Taylor, local Chief Constable, and I have very much come out the report that was commissioned by Jack Straw, the in favour for him to be dismissed. We would like to West Midlands investigation, why do you think it took say one thing: we believe there is an element of so long to get to the truth? Was there someone trying Freemasonry involved. Witnesses have come forward to stop this happening, or is it just the fact that the in recent weeks. You will appreciate lots of people systems of Government did not work? Was it a want to purge their conscience. Something we had not conspiracy, or was it just people not doing their jobs? considered before is whether the closed ranks of cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_o001_th_121016 HC 622-i Hillsborough FINAL.xml
Ev 12 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence
16 October 2012 Margaret Aspinall, Trevor Hicks, Jenni Hicks and Rt Hon Lord Falconer of Thoroton QC
Freemasonry was part of the reason. I think you asked There is one other aspect to it, which is that there are the question of the cover-up of Mr Crompton; we civil claims as well as criminal claims and inquests. don’t accept his answer. Until March of this year, he We just heard the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire was number two to Norman Bettison, and you will say that he unreservedly accepted the report—Mr understand that in view of the history of Hillsborough Winnick asked if there were any qualifications, and he we are very concerned that he will be vigorous said no qualifications at all in relation to accepting the enough—this was a phrase used quite a lot in the report. That means he is accepting that there was a report—if we use the investigations by the West cover-up that caused unimaginable pain for 23 years. Midlands Police. One of the difficulties here in the The civil claims can all be short-circuited if the South evidence gathering, or the statement altering, Yorkshire Police, and those who accept the contents of whichever way, is that everything other than the South the report indicate that they will not resist any claim. Yorkshire officers was dealt with by West Midlands Police under the PACE—Police and Criminal Q93 Chair: Yes. This is not because you don’t have Evidence—rules. South Yorkshire were allowed to confidence in the IPCC, but you want it kept away take their own statements, hence the doctoring that from the police, is that right? You don’t want any took place. There are lessons to be learned. further police investigation into this, is that right, Mr Hicks? Q92 Chair: Lord Falconer, if I can bring you in. Trevor Hicks: I think experience has shown that they Nobody knows more about the way in which the are not vigorous enough when they are investigating system of Government operates than you. You are a themselves. I don’t want to call it a back-slapping former Solicitor General, Attorney General, you have exercise but, “One week we investigate you and the served as a Minister in the Home Officer, a Minister next week you investigate us,” and that is not really in the Cabinet Office and Lord Chancellor. From what conducive to a vigorous and thorough investigation. I have heard so far, I get the impression that there are a lot of people wanting to get closure on this. The Q94 Chair: So, what Lord Falconer is suggesting is IPCC has an inquiry, the Attorney General is going to that the DPP be put in the lead and that the apply for a fresh inquest, there is a lot going on but it investigation be under his supervision, incorporating what the police want to do and everyone else—just is not co-ordinated. Is there a view that there ought to one point of contact. Is that what you would like to be some individual, perhaps a special prosecutor—I see happen? know we don’t have a system as they have in the Jenni Hicks: Exactly, yes. United States of special prosecutors—appointed by Trevor Hicks: There is another element we have not the Attorney General or someone else, the Home mentioned and that is health and safety. There are Secretary, appointing someone to just bring all these health and safety legislation matters here as well. So, strands together. we could end up with four strands all working side by Lord Falconer: What you say is what the families side, and the suggestion that we discussed with the would very much like to see. We went to see the DPP yesterday was to have an umbrella operation that families, and Michael Mansfield and I also went with pulls all those folk together, and Lord Falconer said them and we saw the Director of Public Prosecutions, that the DPP is happy to lead that. who was incredibly impressive, and he said that there needs to be a knitted-together investigation. The Q95 Chair: At the moment are you doing this all families and I worry that you end up in a situation on your own? Are you just going and asking for the where the IPCC does an investigation, they then refer meetings, or are people saying, “Come and have a it to the DPP, who then does another investigation, meeting with us we want to tell you what is going and it is just more and more of the same. on”? Or are you taking the lead and saying to the DPP, What the Director of Public Prosecutions was saying “I want to see you,” and saying to the Home Secretary, to us is to have one group of people investigating. “I want to see you”? They should work with the coroner, there should be Lord Falconer: We are taking the lead. no delay once the new inquests are set up, and we assume there will be a new inquest. If you ask us who Q96 Chair: You are doing it? should lead it, we were incredibly impressed by the Lord Falconer: We are trying to see them and trying Director of Public Prosecutions and we would be to persuade them to see us and agree that there should more than happy to see him lead it, but we thoroughly be this knitted-together investigation. We are not embrace the idea of getting rid of the complication, experiencing difficulty; we hope we can see the IPCC and having one group co-ordinating it, one person to give them another chance to agree to this before driving the investigation. The Director of Public Monday. On Monday the Commons are going to Prosecutions told us yesterday that on Monday there debate this issue and I think the families have found is going to be a debate in which the Home Secretary that when the Commons have debated things in recent will speak on behalf of the Government in the House times that has made a real difference. Mr Rotheram of Commons. The Director of Public Prosecutions getting the debate made a real difference. suggests that we go to see the IPCC and we go to see Chair: Indeed. the Home Secretary and suggest that the internal bits of Government agree the Director of Public Q97 Mark Reckless: Can I clarify, is the suggestion Prosecutions approach, and we are incredibly keen to from the DPP that there should be a single see that. investigation and this is going to be led by the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_o001_th_121016 HC 622-i Hillsborough FINAL.xml
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16 October 2012 Margaret Aspinall, Trevor Hicks, Jenni Hicks and Rt Hon Lord Falconer of Thoroton QC
Director of Public Prosecutions himself? Is that the Q101 Mark Reckless: Do you see any scope, proposal? particularly in the light of the newly disclosed Lord Falconer: He is saying there should be a material for instance, for prosecutions for gross knitted-together investigation. negligence and manslaughter? Jenni Hicks: Co-ordinated. Lord Falconer: I do. Yes, that is what needs to be Lord Falconer: Co-ordinated. I don’t know the investigated as a matter of urgency, and that is what precise details of it, but what he is saying, in effect, the DPP has said he is doing. is that he is worried. Before we saw the Director of Public Prosecutions, the families expressed exactly Q102 Mark Reckless: I can entirely understand your the same worries to me, that he would have an and the families’ desire for a single overarching investigation that would then lead to another process and not particularly lengthy and repeated investigation and one would be referring to the other. processes, but normally you would have the CPS and You want one lot of people investigating the same a police force co-operating with an investigation with things and reaching conclusions. a view to criminal charges. In this case what is the police involvement? Lord Falconer: The DPP was very impressive Q98 Mark Reckless: What, if any, role do you yesterday. He said exactly what you have just said; envisage for the DPP in this proposal, or does he you would normally start with the police force, but he envisage for himself? has 450,000 documents pulled together by the Lord Falconer: The Director of Public Prosecutions Hillsborough Independent Panel and all that has gone has to make the decision finally as to whether before, and he is saying, “Let me get straight on in prosecutions are brought, but he can also have a co- the Crown Prosecution Service and look at this stuff ordinating role, making sure that there is no overlap and see whether it gives the basis of a prosecution.” I and no unnecessary delay. applaud the DPP for doing that. He is not going back to the beginning; he is recognising that a significant Q99 Mark Reckless: From the families’ perspective, amount of investigation has already been done. what would be the aim of this overarching investigation? What would you like to see come out Q103 Mark Reckless: Is there any danger that this of it? innovative type approach in this area might cross over Jenni Hicks: The main part of co-ordinating it all the rights of defendants or lead to procedural issues together is to prevent it being long and drawn out that could prevent prosecutions that might otherwise because what we don’t need is another year. We have occur? already had 23 years of waiting. What we don’t need Lord Falconer: The Director of Public Prosecutions now is going around in circles with one agency and was absolutely clear that if it requires further then another, and you end up with us still waiting investigation he will do it, and I have complete another three, four or five years. We have already confidence in the DPP to be on the right side of the waited for 23 years, and the idea of co-ordinating it line. together is to prevent that, to make sure that you are not having one agency coming in with something and Q104 Mr Winnick: I want to ask Lord Falconer one then they think, “Oh, no, we should have done it or two questions, but can I say that there is utmost another way,” and so on. It just co-ordinates it all admiration, Mr and Mrs Hicks, Mrs Aspinall, and all together so that we can move forward more quickly. those involved, for their long campaigning? Without their campaigning, supported by a number of people, not least Members of Parliament, this would have Q100 Mark Reckless: Is the objective of this gone nowhere. We have admiration when we look investigation to publish a final report as to what upon you and the way in which you have conducted happened? Is its objective to prosecute particular for 23 years a campaign against lies and distortions individuals? which do no credit to the police. Lord Falconer: The investigation we are talking Lord Falconer, you were asked a number of questions about is the consideration of criminal charges. That is by Mr Reckless and the Chair about procedures. As I what we are talking about, and the IPCC is said, this has been going on since the tragedy over 23 considering whether or not they should bring criminal years ago, and it will soon be a quarter of a century, charges or whether they should make so how do you see closure, bearing in mind what you recommendations in relation to disciplinary matters. have said about criminal charges being brought, or The DPP is considering whether to make criminal being quite likely to be brought? How long do you charges, and that is what the announcement was last think this can carry on until there is closure, with your week in relation to the IPCC and the DPP. The aim is experience of the law? that there be proper and speedy consideration of Lord Falconer: I don’t know whether or not there can whether or not criminal charges should be brought in be closure. As far as what can happen now is the light both of the considerations of possible concerned, the families can get what they should have manslaughter charges—which is what happened to got 23 years ago, which is a proper investigation, and cause the disaster—and also whether there are charges then wherever that investigation led, for the right such as misfeasance in public office, or conspiracy to consequences to follow. If that meant criminal pervert the course of justice in relation to what proceedings then it should mean criminal proceedings happened after the disaster. now. If that meant a fair inquest then it should mean cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_o001_th_121016 HC 622-i Hillsborough FINAL.xml
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16 October 2012 Margaret Aspinall, Trevor Hicks, Jenni Hicks and Rt Hon Lord Falconer of Thoroton QC a fair inquest now. How long will it take to get there? Trevor Hicks: Yes. First of all, if I could answer your The families have been saying to me that these 23 question, do we need another report? The answer is years have taken a terrible toll. There are many people no, we don’t. The report is so incomprehensible and who at the beginning of those 23 years after the so damning that really we don’t see any purpose in disaster campaigned for justice, and who are now another report. What we want now is some action. We dead. It is absolutely vital that it be dealt with as have had lots of words, we have had lots of tea and quickly as possible now, and it does not need to take sympathy, but we now need action. Be it a years because all the material has been collected in prosecution, be it disciplinary action either by a one place. It is simply a question of people drawing professional body, by the IPCC or by the coroner, we conclusions from that material that should have been think that the injustices that have been dealt to all drawn a long time ago. these families need correcting and correcting quickly.
Q105 Mr Winnick: Lord Falconer, I am sure the Q110 Chair: In terms of the path now for you and community and the residents around those affected for this Committee, this Committee is not conducting obviously appreciate what you are doing. You won’t an inquiry, but we want an update as to how the misunderstand, but can you explain briefly your progress has been made following the independent involvement and how long you are likely to be report. What you would like to see is a co-ordinated involved and giving counsel? approach that brings together the IPCC investigation, Lord Falconer: I and my firm are representing the any other investigations that are going on under the Hillsborough Family Support Group. overall superintendence of the DPP so that there is one co-ordinated approach, because your fear is one Q106 Mr Winnick: Your firm being? report will lead to another report and this will take Lord Falconer: A firm called Gibson Dunn and years to complete. Is that right? Crutcher. It is a firm of lawyers. Jenni Hicks: Yes, exactly. Mr Winnick: We just need to have that in the minutes. Q111 Chair: The Home Secretary has said in a letter Lord Falconer: Yes. We are representing the to me that she is prepared to use all her powers in Hillsborough Family Support Group. We have been order to get the agencies to work together. When do representing the Hillsborough Family Support Group you plan to see the Home Secretary? for some months. We will stay representing the Lord Falconer: After we saw the DPP we rang her Hillsborough Family Support Group for as long as it office yesterday and the current position is that the takes to resolve all of these issues, and for as long as Home Secretary’s Office is saying, “Could you the Hillsborough Family Support Group want us. explain why you want to see me?” so I hope that I will be able to explain to her why she should see us Q107 Chair: Lord Falconer, you were in the last and then hopefully she will see us before Monday. Government, and some of these papers may or may What she has said in Parliament has been helpful, so not have crossed your desk. They certainly crossed I believe that she will be helpful. the desk of Jack Straw. When he was asked to comment on the Independent Panel report he talked about a culture of impunity on the part of the police. Q112 Chair: If it helps, on behalf of the Committee, Do you share his comments? I will phone the Home Secretary and ask that she meet Lord Falconer: I think the police told lies repeatedly you all— about what happened and the justice system failed to Lord Falconer: That would be enormously helpful. investigate it adequately and failed to reach the right We appreciate that. conclusions. Just as the police continued in their cover-up, the coroner got it horribly wrong. The Q113 Chair: Is there anything else that you would divisional court refused to set aside what the coroner like to say to this Committee, Ms Aspinall, Mr Hicks, had done wrong and, as Margaret Aspinall said, Lord Mrs Hicks, about things that you would like to see Justice Stuart-Smith failed to put right the wrong. done? Although the publication of the report, and the They failed to put right the wrong on the basis of eloquent speech by the Prime Minister on this in the material that would have been available to them if House, sets out the feelings of the House and the they had looked properly. country, is there anything more that you need to see being done by Parliament? Q108 Chair: But could this have been done under Margaret Aspinall: I would just like to thank you for the last Labour Government? listening to us today, but what I have heard over these Lord Falconer: Yes, it could have been done by the past few days has been absolutely uplifting for the previous Government, and it is a failure of the police families, and I was delighted for the fans and who told lies, the justice system that failed to identify survivors to get exonerated on 12 September, after what had happened, and Governments to intervene what we have gone through over the past 23 and a with sufficient vigour. half years. I was really delighted with that, and I just hope now this is going to be the end of Hillsborough, Q109 Chair: Thank you for that. On the question of when this is all finished that we will get our closure, in answer to Mr Winnick’s point, you want to accountability and the inquest verdicts—the right see somebody prosecuted for this, don’t you, Mr verdict put on the death certificates. I think that is very Hicks? Somebody has to be held responsible. important to the families. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_o001_th_121016 HC 622-i Hillsborough FINAL.xml
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16 October 2012 Margaret Aspinall, Trevor Hicks, Jenni Hicks and Rt Hon Lord Falconer of Thoroton QC
Q114 Chair: Is it still your view that there are which is in that report—well, not completely missed, serving officers in the police force in South Yorkshire they picked up some of it, but again the rigour of who are culpable for some of these acts? investigation was not to the level of what the Margaret Aspinall: Yes, I do. That is my belief, yes. Independent Panel has been and he has apologised Trevor Hicks: And in other police forces as well. for that. Margaret Aspinall: Exactly. Trevor Hicks: Like West Yorkshire, for instance. Q118 Chair: This Committee would like to be kept informed as to what is happening. I will certainly Q115 Mark Reckless: Lord Falconer, you said that contact the Home Secretary’s Office on behalf of the the previous Government could have taken other Committee as soon as this session is over, but please courses. In terms of your ministerial office, you now keep us informed of what is happening. We do want represent the families, but did the Hillsborough issue, to know what is happening in respect of the follow-up. broadly or in particular narrow aspects, ever cross Jenni Hicks: Sorry, could I just say one thing? I your desk? Even with hindsight, was there perhaps would like your assurance that this will be sorted out any opportunity you might have had to influence the as quickly as possible for the families’ sakes, because course of events during your ministerial office? as I say we have already had 23 years of waiting, and Lord Falconer: No. One other thing: what the current the last thing we need is to be looking at years and Prime Minister has said has made a huge difference to years for it to be finally sorted. what has happened, and it is the failure of all previous Chair: Of course. Governments that went before until the current Prime Minister responded so well in relation to the report Q119 Mr Winnick: This is why I asked Lord that has made the difference. So, now you have a Falconer of his experience of the law, although Government led by a Prime Minister saying, “This is obviously he is not in a position to set a time limit, it a huge injustice. Let us sort it out,” and that makes a is impossible because we don’t know what is going to real difference. happen. You are quite right, Mrs Hicks, and I am sure the Chair would be the first to agree along with the Q116 Chair: But presumably the follow-up is going rest of my colleagues, that nearly a quarter of a to be absolutely crucial. century is a very long time. Lord Falconer: Critical; absolutely critical. Yes. Jenni Hicks: That is right. It is a long time. Mr Winnick: This should not go on for another 10 Q117 Chair: Mr Hicks, did you want to say or 12 years. something? Jenni Hicks: Yes, thank you. Trevor Hicks: Yes. I was just going to say that Chair: Mrs Hicks, we cannot speak for other Margaret and Jenni met with Jack Straw about a week organisations but we will do our bit to make sure that ago at the end of the Labour conference, and he this is kept on track. basically unreservedly apologised for the fact that he Jenni Hicks: Thank you very much. and Mr Stuart-Smith completely missed everything Chair: Lord Falconer, Mrs Hicks, Mr Hicks, Mrs Aspinall, thank you very much for coming in. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SE] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_w001_michelle_01 Hillsborough Letters from the Home Secretary 15 Sept and 8 Nov.docx.xml
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Written evidence
Correspondence with the Home Secretary
LETTER FROM THE HOME SECRETARY TO THE CHAIR OF THE COMMITTEE, 15 SEPTEMBER 2012
Thank you for your letter of 13 September.1 The Hillsborough independent panel’s report is deeply shocking and disturbing in what it sets out.
The first thing to say is that all parties agree that the panel was quite right to insist that the families see its report first. That means that we are all still digesting what is a comprehensive report into a complicated series of issues, as well as the various ways in which the report needs to be acted upon in order to move from truth to justice.
That being said, I am absolutely clear that those who have broken the law should be pursued and, if the evidence is sufficient, prosecuted. Investigating individual criminality where there is new evidence or new allegations that have not previously been investigated, whether on the part of serving or retired police officers, is the remit of the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC). You will no doubt be aware that both the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police and the South Yorkshire Police Authority have been in contact with the IPCC already. The IPCC have asked that the force review the report and identify any matters that should be referred for them to investigate. Separately, the Chief Executive of the IPCC has asked her staff to review the report and the material to identify whether there are any other matters relating to any of the officers serving in South Yorkshire Police at the time that should be referred for investigation. The IPCC will, as they initiate any investigation, co-ordinate and work with the Director of Public Prosecutions and the CPS as appropriate.
I have asked my officials in the Home Office to co-ordinate with all of the relevant bodies and people involved to ensure that the necessary resource, support, advice and co-operation are in place to facilitate any and all investigations into individual and systemic issues that emerge from the panel’s findings. Stephen Rimmer, the Director-General for Crime and Policing, will lead this work and advise me on what other investigations and work might be needed. As any new inquest and any investigation by the IPCC unfold I will closely monitor the emerging issues and findings. I am fully prepared to make use of all the powers available to me, as well as to deploy the various investigative and regulatory bodies, including Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC), to work at speed and in close co-operation with one another, to undertake whatever is needed to resolve the very serious problems identified in the independent panel’s report.
I am, of course, happy to keep you and the Committee informed. Rt Hon Theresa May MP Home Secretary September 2012
LETTER FROM THE CHAIR OF THE COMMITTEE TO THE HOME SECRETARY, 24 OCTOBER 2012
At its meeting yesterday afternoon, the Committee asked me to write to you, following our evidence session last week with Chief Constable David Crompton, Lord Falconer and the Hillsborough families and the debate in the House on Monday.
As I said in the House, I am very pleased that you were able to meet the families last week to listen to their concerns directly, as they requested in our evidence session. The Committee would like to make a number of points about the way forward and has agreed that, because of the pressing need to avoid any further delay, we should raise them by correspondence, rather than by making a Report to the House.
1. Independent Lead Investigator
The Committee believes that a single, independent investigator should be established to co-ordinate investigations on behalf of the Crown Prosecution Service, the Independent Police Complaints Commissioner and any other public authorities which might have cause to carry out further investigations based on the findings of the Independent Panel. This will, in our view, provide the most efficient, effective and timely basis for further investigation, avoiding unnecessary duplication of effort by multiple agencies, without any further delay. The families suggested to us that the Director of Public Prosecutions might perform such a role, but we can also see the merit in appointing somebody who is wholly independent of all the agencies concerned. This could possibly be done by HM Inspectorate of Constabulary. 1 Not printed. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_w001_michelle_01 Hillsborough Letters from the Home Secretary 15 Sept and 8 Nov.docx.xml
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2. Power to Require Individuals to Attend an Interview
We have already received evidence in the course of our inquiry into the Independent Police Complaints Commission to suggest that its work is sometimes impeded by the lack of any power to compel serving and ex police officers who might have witnessed misconduct or an offence to attend an interview. You suggested to the House that you were considering introducing such a power (HC Deb, 22 October 2012, col. 721). The Committee would welcome this move and stands ready to assist in any way it can with fast-track legislation. It may be that the powers required in this specific context will need to go beyond police officers, to include representatives of the other agencies involved such as the National Health Service and Sheffield City Council.
3. Resources
You and the Prime Minister have already acknowledged the terrible injustice that has been done to the families, who have had to wait 23 years for a full account of what happened to their loved ones. It would be unconscionable if any further delay were to be caused as a result of lack of resources. While the Committee acknowledges the central position of deficit-reduction measures in the Government’s overall programme, it is absolutely vital that sufficient resources be made available to any investigation to bring this matter to a conclusion as quickly as is consistent with the demands of a rigorous investigation and the interests of justice. You should hold an early meeting with the Chair of the IPCC, Dame Anne Owers, and Stephen Rimmer, your lead official, to discuss this.
4. Serious Misconduct by Retired Police Officers
The Chief Constable of South Yorkshire has told the Committee that he has passed the names of 1,444 police officers and staff to the IPCC. Of these, 304 individuals are still serving with South Yorkshire Police. This means that the vast majority of those who were involved in the policing operation on the day have now left the force; given the passage of time it is likely that the majority will have retired and some will have died. The Committee is concerned that there may be officers whose behaviour at the time amounted to gross misconduct, but which will not now pass the threshold for a criminal prosecution. In our view, there could be a need to provide for some disciplinary sanction to be applied to such people, having proper regard to the need to avoid disproportionate, retrospective measures.
The Committee would welcome a reply to these points by Thursday 8 November.
I am copying this letter to Rt Hon Lord Falconer of Thoroughton QC, the Hillsborough Families Support Group and the Hillsborough Justice Campaign, and publishing it on the Committee’s website. Rt Hon Keith Vaz MP Committee Chairman October 2012
LETTER FROM THE HOME SECRETARY TO THE CHAIR OF THE COMMITTEE, 8 NOVEMBER 2012
Thank you for your letter of 24 October in relation to the next steps in following up the Hillsborough Independent Panel’s report.
I appreciate the point that you make in relation to a single, independent lead investigator and I share your view that the structure we establish to pursue these investigations must avoid unnecessary duplication of effort by multiple agencies or delay. My department is working closely with the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Director of Public Prosecutions (OPP) and others to ensure that investigation is swift, thorough and unified. However, there is no straightforward mechanism by which a single individual can be appointed to co-ordinate all investigations in the way that you suggest. Neither the OPP nor Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) have powers to direct investigations by the IPCC or the police. We are working to avoid the risks that you highlight, but this cannot be done in the way that you suggest.
On powers and resources, I have been clear that I will ensure that the IPCC has both the resource and the powers that it requires to undertake the investigations necessary. We are exploring whether legislation is required in relation to any powers; I welcome your support for this. I have already discussed powers and resources with Dame Anne Owers and the IPCC is in the process of quantifying what is necessary to investigate the matters referred to them by the various forces involved.
Finally, I understand your point in relation to sanctions for ex-police officers who are found to have committed gross misconduct. My department is already considering what options might be open to us in this regard and I would welcome hearing your suggestions on this. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [12-02-2013 12:50] Job: 026262 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/026262/026262_w001_michelle_01 Hillsborough Letters from the Home Secretary 15 Sept and 8 Nov.docx.xml
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I am copying my reply to the recipients of your original letter. Rt Hon Theresa May MP Home Secretary November 2012
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